00:00:03 <Gregor> calamari: Uhhh, that's exactly what I thought you meant :P
00:01:10 <calamari> well thanks for getting me past that first hurdle
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00:04:38 <alise> Gregor: link me to that teddynom thing
00:07:14 <oerjan> http://codu.org/tmp/teddynom.gif
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00:07:37 <alise> oerjan has it bookmarked
00:08:17 <oerjan> actually i just typed codu and selected from the suggestions menu :D
00:11:12 <GreaseMonkey> wrt hackiki: i think it should be as a wiki on the side
00:11:18 <alise> I've been stepping through the Ubuntu install then forgetting about it for like hours now.
00:11:27 <GreaseMonkey> if it's a bit too dangerous, we could consider using jsmips
00:11:35 <alise> It's not dangerous.
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00:11:46 <GreaseMonkey> if the server runs freebsd then you can jail it
00:12:52 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> Is there no-one sane in this channel?
00:12:59 <oerjan> we have slight doubts about AnMaster
00:13:34 <alise> AnMaster is just "not sane" not "insane"
00:13:43 <ais523> I thought AnMaster was excessively sane
00:13:47 <ais523> as its own form of insanityt
00:14:09 <oerjan> well there _could_ be someone sane among the people who never speak, i guess
00:15:51 <alise> ais523: have you seen AnMaster's optimisation options?
00:16:01 <alise> he's so sane crossed into the region of unsane
00:16:04 <alise> which is like insane but boring!
00:16:49 <oerjan> ...why did i not see Phantom_Hoover left just before i quoted him
00:16:59 <oerjan> THAT'S IMPOLITE, YOU RASCAL
00:17:31 <oerjan> especially since i'm pretty sure he doesn't read the logs. unless my previous hints have gotten through to him.
00:20:13 <oerjan> <oklopol> maybe he meant if you've checked from DSM you can't be sane <-- clearly anyone who checks stuff in the DSM has OCD at least
00:21:55 <oerjan> although, do hypochondriacs usually go for _mental_ diseases?
00:22:21 <oerjan> (well, frequently. obviously not usually.)
00:23:48 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> Because we need someone sane to vet our Lisp OS ideas.
00:24:06 <oerjan> lisp is just an easy isomorphism to combinatory logic with mutation, anyhow.
00:24:50 <alise> We so totally don't, anyway.
00:25:12 <oerjan> oh wait, you said _sane_. never mind.
00:26:20 <GreaseMonkey> technically you need to stick within reasonable limits
00:27:09 <GreaseMonkey> it's sane enough to reach levels of insanity which top pure insanity
00:27:20 <GreaseMonkey> this DOES kinda make sense if you think about it
00:27:53 <GreaseMonkey> "those guys run so fast and coordinated tied together, it's insane"
00:28:10 <GreaseMonkey> "those guys keep getting tangled up and jerking each other around with the rope, it's insane"
00:28:48 * oerjan knew he should have listened to the voices telling him to drop the subject
00:29:12 <GreaseMonkey> if there was no sanity in building the nukes, there would be no working nukes
00:29:29 <alise> And ... that's a bad thing?
00:30:00 <GreaseMonkey> well, the "firepower" is a higher level of insane than if you were to just let people be loose and uncoordinated
00:31:29 <alise> i can't tell why you'd use nukes as an example.
00:32:25 <GreaseMonkey> i think a nuke demonstrates the point of "organised insanity" in that the power of a nuke is INSANE
00:32:42 <GreaseMonkey> and by "mob" i mean a group of people gathered together
00:33:47 <alise> the people who thought up how to make nukes were mostly loner insane geniuses, I'd say.
00:33:50 <alise> the actual building, maybe not
00:35:08 <GreaseMonkey> and if the only people who had anything to do with the nukes were insane then they would not have been made
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00:39:02 <alise> GreaseMonkey: you're denouncing insanity in #esoteric
00:39:29 <GreaseMonkey> no i'm not, i'm promoting "organised insanity"
00:39:33 <calamari> ld: warning: cannot find entry symbol _start; defaulting to 000082bc
00:39:40 <calamari> that's gotta be what is causing my segfaults
00:40:29 <GreaseMonkey> 4 A person who was involved in a car accident was mistakenly pronounced dead at the scene by an ambulance officer. However, during the removal of the body, the victim was found to be still alive. Rushed to hospital, they died there later.
00:40:51 <GreaseMonkey> *the* victim was found... *they* died there later
00:41:43 <calamari> *the* reader was anal... *they* were used to programming in esoteric languages
00:44:10 <alise> where's phantom_hoover got to...
00:45:03 <oerjan> conspiring with his phantom friends
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00:50:38 <zzo38> Now I got a "! Misplaced \omit" error.
00:51:00 <zzo38> It says "\multispan ->\omit" "\hline\end{tabulary}"
00:52:39 <zzo38> I also got undefined control sequence \TY@F4
00:52:50 <zzo38> I don't have any such control sequence in my document, I don't have \omit either
00:53:21 <alise> You're using some LaTeX command wrong, I guess; by causing it to do that.
00:53:43 <zzo38> Is "\hline\end{tabulary}" wrong?
00:53:51 <zzo38> Or am I using "\multispan" wrong?
00:54:20 <zzo38> I don't even have "\multispan" or "\omit" on this document!
00:55:03 <alise> If the hline thing is in your document, that must be wrong.
00:55:11 <alise> Put your document on sprunge and I'll have a look.
00:55:45 <zzo38> You can access it at: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/icosahedral/printout/main.tex
00:56:35 <oerjan> grmbl grmbl files that won't display in the browser
00:57:57 <zzo38> oerjan: I know in the browser I use I can push "t" to force display as text. But you can also use curl or wget to get the files, or use the view-source: function in the browser
00:58:07 <alise> zzo38: Strange: I cannot see an error in your code. Does it give a hint as to what line?
00:59:14 <zzo38> Also, there is a lot of other problems too, table headings are formatting incorrectly, it also badly formats tables that take up multiple pages
00:59:18 <oerjan> zzo38: yeah yeah i know it's useless to complain you all just say "install linux and firefox"
01:00:17 <zzo38> It also prints "_LOOKUP _OF_SKILLS" at the top of the table of contents, for some reason that I don't know.
01:00:19 <oerjan> (i can easily save it and open in vim, it's just one click too much to bother.)
01:01:44 <zzo38> Also, it *still* says the Introduction is on page 3 even after I converted it to LaTeX, even though the Introduction is actually on page 7, just like before.
01:02:59 <zzo38> Also the contents entries for the different spells levels are not lined up properly
01:04:18 <oerjan> the problem with view-source in IE is that it doesn't become available before the browser actually displays the document _somehow_. i cannot get past the save/choose program dialog box. oh well.
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01:05:07 <zzo38> Tables are still badly formatted, worse than before, even.
01:05:36 <zzo38> There are also two blank pages before chapter 5 and chapter 6
01:05:53 <GreaseMonkey> ooh, bet you can't guess what THIS does: http://www.ioccc.org/1994/tvr.c </sarcasm>
01:06:11 <alise> What table command are you using?
01:06:29 <alise> zzo38: Do not use multicolumn for tables!
01:06:42 <alise> zzo38: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/LaTeX/Tables
01:06:48 <alise> use the tabular environment
01:06:59 <zzo38> GreaseMonkey: Something with X, I suppose?
01:08:42 <zzo38> alise: I did look at that tables
01:09:07 <zzo38> But {tabulary} is needed to make it automatically wrap text in columns
01:09:10 <alise> You're using multicolumn, though, which does not do the proper formatting for tables.
01:09:11 <zzo38> But it still does it badly
01:09:28 <alise> By default, if the text in a column is too wide for the page, LaTeX won’t automatically wrap it. Using p{width} you can define a special type of column which will wrap-around the text as in a normal paragraph. You can pass the width using any unit supported by LaTeX, such as pt and cm, or command lengths, such as \textwidth.You can find a complete list in appendix Useful Measurement Macros.
01:10:01 <zzo38> I can't use that because it has to be generated automatically from the .irm files
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01:10:58 <alise> \begin{tabularx}{\linewidth}{...tablespec...}
01:11:54 <zzo38> It also says I need "supertab" for multiple pages
01:12:28 <zzo38> I don't know which ones I need or how they should be used
01:12:48 <zzo38> And the examples on Wikibooks do use \multicolumn
01:13:02 <zzo38> Which I try to use for the table headings
01:13:07 <alise> I think tabularx will work, no?
01:13:50 <zzo38> Does tabularx do all of these things?
01:14:13 <zzo38> Look at the main.dvi file (in the same directory as main.tex) to see what is going wrong!!
01:15:21 <zzo38> See that the "Character-Start Feats" table is partly off the page (on page 30)
01:15:42 <alise> I wish this was a pdf, so I could search it...
01:16:03 <alise> zzo38: you have two tables without a paragraph between them!
01:16:12 <alise> you need to use \par -- or, in stuff you write yourself, two newlines
01:16:56 <zzo38> See on page 49 it is cut off
01:17:57 <zzo38> OK, now it is a PDF.
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01:18:44 <alise> What is wrong on 49?
01:19:35 <zzo38> The text is cut off (it should say "Duration" there), also there should be a line break before "Target"
01:19:56 <zzo38> Look also the list on page 48 is cut off
01:20:15 <zzo38> On page 47 there is too large space between section names
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01:21:09 <zzo38> And why is page numbers in table of contents is wrong?
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01:22:22 <zzo38> I think the formatting worked much better when it was Plain TeX, but that one had problems as well
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01:24:20 <zzo38> (I still have the files for printing it with Plain TeX, they are different files than the LaTeX files)
01:24:53 <zzo38> (The Plain TeX one is called "icoruma_tex.php" and "icoruma.tex" while the LaTeX one uses "icoruma_latex.php" only)
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01:25:55 <zzo38> At least I know how icoruma.tex works!
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01:26:53 <zzo38> Whether I use Plain TeX (and icoruma.tex) or if I use LaTeX, it is still wrong!
01:28:56 <alise> Did tabularx not work?
01:29:23 <zzo38> alise: It has the same problem and everything is still broken.
01:29:28 <zzo38> It isn't only the tables that are broken.
01:29:34 <alise> What else is broken?
01:29:59 <zzo38> A lot of things are cut off, spacing is all wrong, page numbers are still wrong.....
01:30:22 <zzo38> The formatting is worse than the macro packages I wrote myself.
01:30:39 <alise> You have probably used the wrong code.
01:30:48 <alise> Since your document still probably has non-LaTeXy things in there
01:31:06 <alise> What is wrong with the page numbers?
01:31:40 <zzo38> A lot of things are cut off, some of the tables are, also the list of spells and the spell descriptions are both cut off
01:31:52 <zzo38> The page numbers in the table of contents are not the actual page numbers for those sections
01:31:59 <zzo38> They are four less than the actual page numbers
01:34:47 <zzo38> LaTeX just seems much more complicated than Plain TeX, I am going back to using my own
01:37:07 * Sgeo vaguely wonders why VS2010 is working when the installer says it failed to install
01:37:31 <zzo38> Sgeo: Microsoft software is all like that.....
01:58:27 <zzo38> Maybe Later I will work on this printout of the rules for Icosahedral RPG.
01:58:34 <zzo38> But now I will do other things
01:59:56 <alise> Biiiiiiiiiig Beeeeeeeeeeeeeeen
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02:00:53 <zzo38> Now say them both fast together.
02:01:05 <zzo38> Do you ever wonder why women always get a place to sleep?
02:01:53 * oerjan has no idea what terrifytissue is supposed to mean
02:02:12 <zzo38> Well, I suppose it is because it is the weaker sex.
02:02:19 <zzo38> I don't think so. I believe they are stronger.
02:02:20 <alise> zzo38: You /are/ joking, right?
02:02:24 <zzo38> Do you know why I believe that?
02:02:30 <zzo38> Because they get enough sleep, that's why.
02:03:14 <zzo38> alise: Actually I am just quoting something from this pinball game, those are the speech they say in the background it is probably from some old movie or something like that
02:05:32 <zzo38> Wow! I'm really good! I hit all of the drop targets!
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02:18:34 <oerjan> death powered killing golems
02:18:55 <calamari> ooh death-powered, I like that :)
02:19:12 <calamari> is there a special power released in death?
02:20:35 <calamari> now to see if I can compile egobf for android
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02:40:26 <calamari> well this would seem to answer my question except it doesn't work http://www.uclibc.org/FAQ.html#gnu_malloc
02:41:43 <Gregor> calamari: It doesn't work? How so?
02:42:14 <calamari> egobfi8-bfi.o: In function `bf_interpret':
02:42:15 <calamari> bfi.c:(.text.bf_interpret+0x74): undefined reference to `rpl_realloc'
02:42:15 <calamari> bfi.c:(.text.bf_interpret+0x240): undefined reference to `rpl_realloc'
02:42:15 <calamari> bfi.c:(.text.bf_interpret+0x34c): undefined reference to `rpl_realloc'
02:42:44 <Gregor> But how does the solution not work.
02:42:57 <Gregor> Also, chalk that up to "when I wrote egobf, I sucked at autoconf" :P
02:42:57 <calamari> export jm_cv_func_working_malloc=yes
02:42:58 <calamari> export ac_cv_func_malloc_0_nonnull=yes
02:43:22 <Gregor> Did you murder your config.status first?
02:43:30 <Gregor> I think that'll override exports if you're not careful.
02:44:21 <calamari> didn't help.. going to see if I can figure out how to add MALLOC_GLIBC_COMPA
02:44:38 <Gregor> Uhh, presumably you're trying NOT to recompile libc here, right?
02:44:48 <Gregor> Oh, or are you not using Android's libc at all?
02:44:56 <calamari> oh I was assuming that was something for autoconf
02:45:17 <calamari> I'm using Android's libc.. bionic
02:45:36 <Gregor> Stupid fix: Configure, edit config.h to remove the relevant #define, and pray it doesn't regenerate it.
02:48:04 <alise> I think Gregor will like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMtZfW2z9dw
02:48:10 <alise> Available in stunning 1080p HD!
02:48:30 <alise> It just seems like the kind of thing Gregor would link in here ten times in five minutes. :P
02:49:45 <Gregor> Hey hey hey ... I don't relink things with that frequency all that often ...
02:50:11 <calamari> lol the subtitles are hd, that's about it
02:50:27 <alise> Nothing wrong with HD subtitles!
02:51:32 <Gregor> I'll spam link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0Xa4bHcJu8 instead
02:51:47 <alise> You just don't appreciate the beauty of music.
03:08:37 <calamari> I guess egobfc doesn't make much sense to include
03:13:44 <calamari> Gregor: apt will have to wait because it requires libraries I don't have yet
03:16:22 <alise> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=364dzVsBs2o#t=0m57s <-- This washing machine hates tomato plants.
03:16:25 <alise> Really, really loathes them.
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04:05:51 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/textfile/miscellaneous/computergameidea
04:06:01 <zzo38> Which idea do you like/dislike?
04:09:03 <alise> "Sokoban on drugs!!"
04:10:26 <zzo38> Do you have anything to expand any of these?
04:10:34 <zzo38> Like, to add additional comments?
04:14:22 <zzo38> Make it a game... with that title....
04:18:08 <Sgeo> Is SICP available free? Will I learn _good_ design from it?
04:19:56 <Sgeo> Dislike the title-only ideas
04:20:10 <alise> Sgeo: You won't learn good design from it because it's nothing like C#.
04:20:34 <Sgeo> alise, sarcasm, I presume? Or are you saying that I won't learn good _OOP_ design from it?
04:20:52 <alise> I meant you specifically won't because of C# Syndrome.
04:21:32 <Sgeo> I've known C# for less than a year
04:21:39 <zzo38> Sgeo: Yes I can understand you dislike the title-only ideas because it is only a title, it doesn't really help much, but it is possible to imagination more about what it might be like, a bit
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04:22:14 <Sgeo> I've known Python for... 6 years I think. If there's a Python syndrome, I may have it, but not C# Syndrome
04:22:52 <zzo38> Would you have any more specific ideas about anything on this list? Different people can have different ideas about it, I guess. And then if that is not specific enough other people (including me or even other people who did before) can add on to that, and so on
04:24:17 <Sgeo> <13> sounds like it would be an interesting puzzle game
04:24:43 <Sgeo> How is <5> not a subset of <8>?
04:24:44 <zzo38> Sgeo: It might, if I can think of how it might work
04:24:47 <oerjan> the magritte's pipes game could contain a lot of objects that look like pipes but turn out not to be when you pick them up
04:25:14 <oerjan> and pipe-looking landscape features, and such
04:25:54 <zzo38> Sgeo: <5> and <8> are two different things. By <8> I was thinking of something like "Tetanus on Drugs" (a GameBoy Advance game, Damian Yerrick wrote it and it is GNU GPL licensed)
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04:35:42 <zzo38> Did you know there are pink rotary payphones in Japan?
04:36:33 <zzo38> They are found in the back of issue 26:3 of 2600
04:38:03 <zzo38> cheater99: I don't know. I wonder if someone has tried.
04:38:11 <zzo38> (Do you mean blueboxed? Or redboxed?)
04:38:37 <zzo38> (Redbox is the one for payphones, usually)
04:39:11 <cheater99> as in, the one that lets you do free international phonecalls.
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04:39:29 <zzo38> cheater99: Yes, that is what the blue one can be used for
04:39:50 <cheater99> An early phreaking tool, the blue box is an electronic device that simulates a telephone operator's dialing console. It functions by replicating the tones used to switch long-distance calls and using them to route the user's own call, bypassing the normal switching mechanism. The most typical use of a blue box was to place free telephone calls
04:39:54 <zzo38> (Although to be specific, the blue box is simply used to generate a different type of tones than standard DTMF)
04:41:43 <zzo38> Silverbox is the one for generating sixteen DTMF tones. As far as anyone knows you can't make free calls with it, but it can be used to automatically dial phones or to send DTMF to a remote service that uses DTMF even if you have only a rotary phone.
04:42:04 <zzo38> However, I have tried this, the four extra tones do stop the dial tone on the phone I have at home!
04:43:02 <zzo38> So the service over here does recognize them, but might just treat any telephone number containing them as invalid, I don't actually know.
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05:15:33 <coppro> idea: language where some commands are of the form <duration> <noun> <conjunction> <noun>
05:37:35 <coppro> I just want "millenium hand and shrimp" to be legal
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06:28:02 <zzo38> You haven't written it in green--your notes will be all wrong.
06:28:57 <zzo38> My conversion program Icoruma->TeX (without LaTeX) works completely perfectly when there are no tables involved!
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13:20:29 <olsner> I always thought it was ais523
13:25:54 <ais523> does it really matter, though?
13:27:15 * Phantom_Hoover can't think of any other male names beginning with I...
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14:07:50 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: i have thoughts on os, will discuss soon
14:08:32 <alise> sane people ruin oses
14:13:19 <thanatos> something more about sane people?
14:15:26 <alise> thanatos: this channel is for programming
14:15:38 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: busy atm will tell in a little while]
14:16:28 <thanatos> esoteric is about programming? :o
14:16:55 <alise> this channel is about esoteric programming languages
14:17:19 <alise> maybe try somewhere else than freenode, this is a programming network mostly, for an esoterica channel
14:17:38 <alise> thanatos: see the topic
14:17:42 <alise> * Topic for #esoteric is: (a(:^)*S):^ | Should the esolangs community have a Hackiki wiki? (Wiki capable of running nearly-arbitrary code) Vote: http://poll.fm/23p9l | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D
14:17:48 <alise> esolangs - esoteric languages
14:17:51 <alise> nearly-arbitrary code
14:17:55 <alise> or look at the logs
14:18:16 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: back me up here
14:19:43 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: gah! for how long?
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14:23:06 <alise> esoteric programming
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14:25:28 <alise> underload or one of cpressey's or oklopol's, not sure which
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14:26:25 <Fallensn0w> underload's easy to program in though xd
14:26:40 <alise> (cpressey = Befunge, noit o' mnain worb, 5000 others -- catseye.tc guy)
14:26:44 <alise> (oklopol = insane)
14:42:58 -!- nooga has joined.
14:51:12 <olsner> cpressey is probably one of the sanest persons in this channel
14:52:17 <oklopol> Fallensn0w: what have you done in underload?
14:53:23 <oklopol> oh fallen snow, i thought it was fall en[d]s now
14:54:15 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
14:56:41 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover is a bit slow isn't he
14:57:09 <oklopol> i guess this would make more sense if ais had chosen the name, now he'd have to have changed it
15:28:09 <olsner> sweet, Intercal is an awesome given name
15:28:15 <olsner> I wonder why I haven't realized before
15:40:50 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
15:48:34 <alise> <olsner> cpressey is probably one of the sanest persons in this channel
15:51:04 <alise> well he is the NIH every-system-sucks let's-reinvent-computing types; and, man, just look at his esolangs
15:51:33 <AnMaster> who is the sanest person here then?
15:51:35 <alise> actually while trying to figure out how Whothm works recently I ran into this quote from the documentation... (sec)
15:51:47 <alise> "I'd love to tell you about Whothm, but first I need to tell you about Joanie, the Gnostic Babysitter. Have you seen her? She's a very normal twelve-year-old girl, with very normal twelve-year-old girl concerns — she worries if her friends will make fun of her for liking different music than they do, worries if that cute boy in home room likes her or not, worries if she'll be able to achieve a transcendant state of gnosis at the moment of her physical de
15:51:47 <alise> ath so that her soul may be freed from the reincarnation cycle. Because, you see, she's a Gnostic. Not just curious about Gnosticism, not just going through a phase, or anything like that — Joanie is a die-hard, demiurge-rejecting, rotten-material-world-shunning Gnostic. And she charges $15 an hour.
15:51:47 <alise> OK, now I can tell you about Whothm."
15:51:55 <alise> So, yeah, I would very much doubt sanity.
15:52:04 <alise> AnMaster: Hehehe...
15:52:38 <olsner> alise: but... every system *does* suck, and computing *should* be reinvented :P
15:52:45 <alise> olsner: yes, but :)
15:52:47 <AnMaster> I would say ais except for INTERCAL and feather
15:52:55 <alise> ais is definitely crazy.
15:52:58 <alise> it's you. it's why you're boring
15:53:13 <alise> (*not POV, others have called you the sanest e.g. oerjan :D)
15:53:17 <AnMaster> alise, Deewiant is pretty sane too
15:53:35 <AnMaster> wait, nvm, x86-64 asm for that dobela interpreter
15:54:13 <AnMaster> alise, olsner seems quite sane
15:54:29 <AnMaster> can't remember him doing much but idling and saying a few lines every now and then
15:55:34 <AnMaster> alise, hm... Sgeo is not actually insane is he? ... Just obsessed.
15:55:51 <olsner> but it is true that I mostly idle around here...
15:56:27 <alise> AnMaster: necrophile
15:56:39 <alise> AnMaster: & thinks C# is nice
15:57:08 <AnMaster> that is really as good as dead
15:57:09 <alise> yes, & other old VRs
15:57:15 <alise> coppro invented the necrophile thing :P
15:57:19 <alise> "The main purpose of trigraphs and digraphs is so you can say "neener, neener, you didn't do it right" to some poor sap trying to write a tool that processes C and C++ source code." -- Walter Bright
15:57:29 <olsner> AnMaster: besides, all my esoteric projects are all idling right now, waiting for my compiler to mature so I have something to write them in :)
15:57:36 <alise> olsner: what, that M++ thing?
15:58:10 <AnMaster> alise, I have to admit... I used them for that a couple of times. Only against people who I knew wouldn't take it badly though
15:58:16 <AnMaster> alise, oh and what about cpp and TC?
15:58:35 <alise> AnMaster: I think cpp is on the border between TC and not.
15:58:52 <alise> If someone linked me to the Game of Life implementation I could see if the lists would work.
15:59:06 <AnMaster> game of life implementation of cpp?
15:59:13 <olsner> alise: nothing fancy really, kind of C-ish with modules instead of includes, and some random syntax changes
15:59:40 <alise> AnMaster: other way around
15:59:47 <alise> olsner: shame, i was hoping some crazy functional crap :)
15:59:52 <olsner> I have haskell for that
15:59:55 <AnMaster> alise, ah, I would link you, except I never heard about it before today
16:00:03 <alise> olsner: haskell is insufficiently theoretical (type system is too weak)
16:00:09 <alise> AnMaster: it's what spurred the TC cpp discussion
16:00:10 <alise> but it has a finite grid
16:00:13 <alise> so it's not in and of itself a proof
16:00:22 <alise> "in and of itself" is such a weird idiom
16:00:30 <olsner> well, I do have a couple of ideas for crazy functional crap... dunno if/when I'll get around to implementing any of them though
16:00:47 <AnMaster> alise, almost as weird as "x is all but y"
16:00:56 <AnMaster> (which is probably not weird to a native speaker)
16:01:38 <alise> at least "in and of itself" can be expanded to "in itself, and of itself"
16:01:48 <alise> "it's not, in itself, and of itself, a proof"
16:01:53 <alise> which is a lot more parseable
16:02:06 <alise> I bet Swedish has crazy idioms, though.
16:02:12 <fizzie> AnMaster: http://zem.fi/~fis/20100731_010-027.jpg -- it's quite color-bandy, since it was snapped with the phone's normal camera app with full-auto settings, and also the sun took a peek at some point so the lighting changed; I did try the "LDR, variable WB" exposure optimization, but it mostly got the foresty part the same green, but made the sky be horribly surreal.
16:02:32 <fizzie> (Should've just done raw with fcam, but it's a bit slower, and didn't want to inconvenience others.)
16:02:36 <olsner> otoh, since I've been reading TaPL I will aim to get a proper type system into this language
16:02:36 <alise> auto a = puts((char[:>)<%a='a'+'\a',-~a,!(int<:'a']){[!!'a':>="a"<:!a]%>});
16:02:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, tried ldr, variable but with camera response unchecked?
16:02:54 <alise> olsner: If it's as weak as Haskell's I will shoot you.
16:02:57 <AnMaster> that tends to give better results
16:02:58 <olsner> I've been thinking about just using simply typed lambda calculus as the type system
16:03:03 <alise> (If it has typeclasses I will shoot you.)
16:03:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, need a small error still
16:03:06 <fizzie> AnMaster: Hm, no; I could try that.
16:03:11 <alise> olsner: doesn't work
16:03:18 <alise> olsner: because, we need a type *, being the type of types
16:03:27 <alise> we conclude A->B in *
16:03:39 <fizzie> AnMaster: It's approximately from here: http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=60.215859,21.292362&spn=0.080239,0.208569&t=h&z=13
16:03:40 <alise> we conclude \(x:A). (y:B) in A->B
16:03:46 <alise> olsner: ^ so we can see that this does not work
16:04:02 <alise> olsner: the original De Bruijn proof checker used that model but it caused problems, which is why the types are usually separated
16:04:27 <fizzie> AnMaster: Do you *have* to point out my lack of upload bandwidth every single time I share a picture? I'm depressed about it enough as is.
16:04:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, a tip: progressive jpeg tends to be a bit smaller than normal ones, for same quality setting
16:05:27 <fizzie> Yes; it's from an observation tower thing up on a hill.
16:05:36 -!- alise has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
16:05:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh and make sure you set the exposure reference image to one of the good ones
16:05:50 -!- alise has joined.
16:05:55 <alise> someone paste the last few lines plz
16:06:03 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Yes; it's from an observation tower thing up on a hill.
16:06:04 <AnMaster> * alise has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
16:06:04 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> fizzie, oh and make sure you set the exposure reference image to one of the good ones
16:06:10 <alise> more than that, I need
16:06:15 <alise> I missed more due to freeze
16:06:20 <AnMaster> <alise> olsner: the original De Bruijn proof checker used that model but it caused problems, which is why the types are usually separated
16:06:21 <AnMaster> <fizzie> AnMaster: Do you *have* to point out my lack of upload bandwidth every single time I share a picture? I'm depressed about it enough as is.
16:06:21 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> fizzie, a tip: progressive jpeg tends to be a bit smaller than normal ones, for same quality setting
16:06:27 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Yes; it's from an observation tower thing up on a hill.
16:06:46 <olsner> alise: hmm, I don't understand what you're saying, but do you have a reference to that De Bruijn proof checker you were talking about?
16:06:49 <alise> yeah, typing didn't work, nothing worked, ctrl+alt+f1 didn't work, just jerky mouse movements worked.
16:06:52 <fizzie> "Try drinking some antifreeze." (Note: do not actually try that.)
16:06:56 <alise> olsner: Freek has written about it.
16:07:07 <alise> olsner: anyway: do you mean just using the STLC type system?
16:07:13 <alise> olsner: I thought you meant using STLC terms as types
16:07:24 <olsner> using STLC terms as types
16:07:36 <alise> AnMaster: forgot to try
16:07:50 <alise> olsner: right. Well, you'd represent the type of a function from A to B as what, then?
16:08:00 <AnMaster> alise, nothing in logs after reboot?
16:08:14 -!- alise has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:08:42 <olsner> so, you could say something like ((\x -> void(*)(x,x)) int) to write the type of a function that takes two ints
16:09:17 <olsner> (that's not really the syntax I will use for functions or function pointers though)
16:09:29 -!- alise has joined.
16:09:32 <alise> It's fizzie's damn picture.
16:09:40 <alise> Makes Firefox hang the system when loading.
16:09:53 <fizzie> alise: It's just 9000 pixels wide, it's not *that* big. Especially compared to what AnMaster tends to post.
16:09:57 <olsner> fail, I wrote two lines of response just between "alise has quit" and "alise has joined"
16:10:01 <alise> Well, firefox doesn't like it.
16:10:10 <olsner> <olsner> so, you could say something like ((\x -> void(*)(x,x)) int) to write the type of a function that takes two ints
16:10:10 <olsner> <olsner> (that's not really the syntax I will use for functions or function pointers though)
16:10:10 <alise> 08:08:42 <olsner> so, you could say something like ((\x -> void(*)(x,x)) int) to write the type of a function that takes two ints
16:10:10 <alise> 08:09:17 <olsner> (that's not really the syntax I will use for functions or function pointers though)
16:10:11 <fizzie> Perhaps it's the content. Your system can't handle the pristine wilderness!
16:10:24 <alise> olsner: how hideously pointless is that? that's equivalent to (void (*) (int, int))
16:10:47 <olsner> obviously, in reality you wouldn't use it to write pointless examples
16:10:50 <AnMaster> <fizzie> alise: It's just 9000 pixels wide, it's not *that* big. Especially compared to what AnMaster tends to post. <-- true
16:11:01 <AnMaster> fizzie, but I always use progressive jpeg
16:11:03 <alise> olsner: well anyway there has been a lot of good research done on type systems and i recommend you pick a better one ;)
16:11:05 <AnMaster> not sure if that affects anything
16:11:20 <alise> olsner: i guess O'Caml's type system might be a good one to look at?
16:11:31 <alise> then again, maybe your system will work and I am a hopeless ...theoretician; wow, that's a word.
16:11:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, I still wish I had the stuff needed to make a 360° spherical at full optical zoom. HDR.
16:11:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, that would be quite a bit over 100 MP iirc
16:11:58 <fizzie> AnMaster: Any sort of variable-wb seems to insist on freaky sky (but nicely matching greenery); I think it simply needs more-than-two-parameters color correction in order to make both the sky and the shrubberies (ni!) match.
16:12:15 <olsner> alise: it should surely "work" as in "produce types", the practical usability is a different question :)
16:12:38 <alise> olsner: of course.
16:12:40 <AnMaster> fizzie, very strange that though... That it would need more than 2 var wb
16:12:47 <oklopol> if types are first order beings, then why not just call them sets
16:12:59 <alise> oklopol: Coq and Agda do
16:13:06 <alise> oklopol: except Coq has Type with Set and Prop as descendants
16:13:10 <alise> since propositions aren't really sets that much.
16:13:14 <AnMaster> alise, since firefox here likes it
16:13:15 <alise> AnMaster: more than good enough
16:13:22 <alise> AnMaster: CPU isn't the fastest, but it blazes all the time
16:13:30 <AnMaster> alise, sempron 3300+, 1.5 GB RAM. 72 tabs in firefox
16:13:33 <alise> olsner: i do warn you that if you introduce a type system like that you will end up with a functional language with bad syntax, unintentionally :D
16:13:39 <fizzie> AnMaster: I guess the default camera app might do any sort of "color-correction" postprocessing. It does some sort of edge-enhancing thing and horribly artifacty noise reduction already.
16:13:40 <AnMaster> alise, a bit slow to zoom in and out but otherwise just fine
16:13:41 <alise> AnMaster: yeah, well, evidently there's some issue here with that imgae.
16:13:49 <alise> i don't really need you to brag about how your system manages it
16:14:21 <AnMaster> alise, I'm just pointing out that my old system manages it. Are you using that old thing with windows xp barely running on it?
16:14:24 <alise> What what what the Brontosaurus and Triceratops never existed
16:14:36 <alise> AnMaster: no, I'm running my good Toshiba
16:14:40 <alise> AnMaster: which has 4 GiB of RAM.
16:14:49 <AnMaster> alise, no smell of solder yet? ;P
16:14:57 <alise> and, yes, only a 1.3 GHz dual-core Core 2, but dammit, ghz don't matter, it's fast
16:15:06 <AnMaster> <alise> What what what the Brontosaurus and Triceratops never existed <-- ? The first got renamed didn't it? The second I have no clue about
16:15:10 <alise> and I usually have 100+ CSS-y Javascript-y tabs open in firefox, so nyah
16:15:11 <AnMaster> or do you mean something more recent?
16:15:24 <alise> http://gizmodo.com/5601514/the-triceratops-never-existed-it-was-actually-a-young-version-of-another-dinosaur
16:15:27 <alise> See the title in that URL.
16:15:35 <alise> So, yes, new news; just not breaking.
16:16:10 <olsner> hmm, I may also try to introduce type-functions that can produce code ... so many different ideas, I'll probably end up implementing none of them!
16:16:31 <alise> "It was already known that triceratops skulls changed throughout their development, but not that the final result was a torosaurus. Torosaurus will now be abolished as a species and specimens reassigned to Triceratops, says Horner."
16:16:41 <alise> So more shoddy Gizmodo reporting. This is why I read engadget!
16:16:48 <AnMaster> where is the date that was posted
16:16:53 <alise> olsner: type inferring is a bitch btw :P
16:16:58 <alise> AnMaster: sidebar at the top
16:17:02 <alise> gizmodo is also horribly laid out
16:17:05 <alise> ANOTHER REASON TO READ ENGADGET
16:17:17 <alise> although engadget's redesign is also shit.
16:17:29 <AnMaster> alise, I'm not sure how dinosaurs apply to either site
16:17:42 <olsner> alise: yeah, also it's awesome so I'd like to have that too :P
16:17:44 <alise> They tend to both include semi-random stuff the audience will like.
16:17:54 <alise> olsner: THIS IS WHY WE CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS
16:18:38 <AnMaster> how large were those young triceratops?
16:19:15 <alise> but yeah, dammit, "Torosaurus will now be abolished as a species and specimens reassigned to Triceratops, says Horner."
16:19:20 <alise> Gizmodo ruined my childhood TEMPORARILY.
16:19:43 <alise> And Gizmodo KEPT A STOLEN PRE-RELEASE IPHONE 4.
16:19:47 <alise> Engadget would NEVER be so evil.
16:19:52 <AnMaster> but I don't get why it would ruin your childhood
16:19:57 <alise> AnMaster: DINOSORZ
16:20:15 <alise> "I almost took this seriously and then I discovered it was on Gizmodo." --reddit THE PUBLIC ARE TIRING OF INFERIOR GADGETRY SITES
16:20:20 <alise> *I am only getting paid a lot to say this
16:22:42 <AnMaster> sorry, didn't get that. Too much static. Try resending with reed-solomon
16:23:59 <alise> Well, Ubuntu Rhythmbox has finally jumped off the deep-end and now opens on the Ubuntu One ... view, tab, whatever, rather than the library.
16:24:05 <alise> Clooooooooooooooooud Stooooooooooooooraaaaaaaaaage
16:25:01 <alise> Maybe it doesn't, maybe I did something. But I don't think so.
16:25:16 <AnMaster> huh, doesn't here. Maybe I uninstalled that part early on.
16:25:24 <AnMaster> since there is actually no such tab
16:25:42 <alise> Probably you hid the tab or something.
16:25:57 <alise> Hmm, now it starts in the proper tab.
16:26:09 <alise> AnMaster: You have the side pane on right?
16:26:13 <alise> Have you got "Stores" hidden?
16:26:22 <AnMaster> err, just closed it *reopens to check*
16:26:57 <alise> So, I gotta finds me a music player. Not Banshee, Banshee is iTunes.
16:27:02 <AnMaster> yes, says Library with several headings under it: (reverse i18ned titles): play queue, music, podcasts, radio
16:27:04 <alise> Maybe Quod Libet like last time, but *eh*
16:27:08 <AnMaster> then there is a playlist heading a bit below
16:27:14 <alise> AnMaster: and no Stores heading?
16:27:18 <alise> then you're not on 10.04.
16:27:33 <AnMaster> containing some "my hig...", "last pla..." and "most recently add.."
16:27:39 <alise> I don't like Exaile because it uses vertical tabs and those are an abomination
16:27:59 <alise> Dammit, why has nobody created something as good as Amarok 1 yet :P
16:28:02 <alise> (Amarok 2 is crap)
16:28:22 <AnMaster> alise, but I think I removed all packages that showed up on a search for ubuntu-one
16:28:30 <alise> AnMaster: That's probably it, then.
16:28:41 <alise> AnMaster: That probably uninstalled ubuntu-desktop. Maybe not the best idea.
16:28:53 <AnMaster> alise, no, ubuntu-desktop is still installed
16:29:01 <AnMaster> I think they were recommends instead of depends
16:29:08 <alise> I think I might do that.
16:29:15 <alise> Fucking Canonical.
16:29:26 <AnMaster> alise, of course with recommends you probably need to override some setting to make it treat it closer to suggests instead
16:29:29 <alise> How dare they try and make a profit, darned company :P
16:29:46 <alise> It is terribly intrusive though.
16:30:06 <alise> Grr, I really should just implement my Perfect Music Daemon and Client.
16:30:10 <AnMaster> very good to clean up the mess after upgrades ;P
16:30:19 <alise> AnMaster: you don't need debfoster
16:30:22 <alise> and it's deprecated since 2006
16:30:33 <alise> AnMaster: you do install with aptitude, right?
16:31:06 <AnMaster> alise, varies. apt-get, aptitude or synaptic
16:31:13 <alise> AnMaster: well, do not use apt-get. ever
16:31:24 <alise> why? it's like using dpkg. aptitude is the official debian package manager. And, furthermore:
16:31:28 <AnMaster> alise, it supports the "installed as dep" stuff
16:31:31 <alise> aptitude automatically debfosters on every action basically.
16:31:44 <alise> "As of 2006-01-01, debfoster is officially deprecated: aptitude does the same stuff as debfoster but integrated into the apt system. To convert your debfoster data to the aptitude database, use the conversion script."
16:31:48 <AnMaster> I only want it to do that when I tell it to
16:31:52 <alise> AnMaster: Okay, then: "apt-get autoremove".
16:31:57 <alise> Where's your debfoster now?
16:32:21 <AnMaster> alise, because it seems on jaunty the entire default package set was marked as manually installed by default
16:32:34 <AnMaster> and that didn't resolve completely after upgrading to lucid
16:32:51 <alise> Good lord, why do people suck so much as software.
16:33:29 <alise> Songbird? Wikipedia, why the fuck do you call SONGBIRD a music player? It's more like a hideous Firefoxed abomination that simultaneously rips off iTunes, makes it somehow SLOWER, and adds a bunch of crap!
16:33:39 <alise> "Linux support for Songbird was discontinued in April, 2010." and nothing of value was lost
16:33:59 <alise> AnMaster: tl;dr software sucks
16:34:02 <AnMaster> mozilla dropped linux support in a product?
16:34:24 <alise> Songbird isn't Mozilla.
16:34:30 <alise> It just uses Firefox as the base code or something.
16:34:36 <alise> Because it wants to be hellish and awful.
16:34:39 <alise> Which it succeeds at.
16:34:55 <alise> It is literally the biggest, slowest, most bloated piece of software that only irritates you that I have ever seen.
16:34:59 <alise> X has been displaced.
16:35:18 <AnMaster> alise, yes. Btw I started using mobile versions of sites that have that even on desktop. Stuff like the Swedish equiv of BBC and such
16:35:31 <AnMaster> loads like in a snap, unlike their normal site
16:35:35 <alise> Hee, in Britain our BBC has a well-designed website by default that loads instantly.
16:35:52 <alise> And it, unbelievably, has a clean and simple, typographically-oriented design!
16:36:04 <alise> /And/ it's actually standards-compliant, and uses /RDF/:
16:36:05 <alise> <head profile="http://dublincore.org/documents/dcq-html/">
16:36:12 <alise> /And/ their devs have blogs and stuff.
16:36:14 <AnMaster> alise, compare loading time: http://mobil.sr.se/ http://sr.se/
16:36:23 <alise> OUR NEWS CORPORATION IS MORE GEEKY THAN YOURS
16:36:33 <alise> AnMaster: Wow, sr.se loads slowly and is ugly.
16:36:42 <alise> http://mobil.sr.se/ is a bit craply designed for screen though, obviously.
16:37:00 <alise> AnMaster: Now compare with our BBC: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-10830485
16:37:02 <AnMaster> alise, wrt sr.se: agreed. It was better before the redesign about a years ago
16:37:08 <alise> (Might not load as quickly outside of the UK.)
16:37:16 <AnMaster> and yes the mobile one is obviously designed for stuff like my phone
16:37:22 <AnMaster> it works very well in opera mini on my phone
16:37:49 <alise> What I'm saying here is that if you don't care about human rights or not sucking, we are a better country than you.
16:37:50 <AnMaster> alise, that loads a bit slow from over here. Slightly faster than sr.se though
16:38:16 <alise> It takes maybe 1 second or so from completely refresh load (including all CSS, images, etc. from scratch (forced)).
16:38:28 <AnMaster> I assume you saw that stuff about Assange and media heaven on iceland?
16:38:33 <alise> With everything cached apart from the page it loads in maybe .3 seconds.
16:39:08 <alise> Heh, googling his name returns a bunch of anti-Wikileaks articles in the mainstream media.
16:39:12 <alise> Because of the Afghan stuff.
16:39:20 <alise> "Julian Assange: is 'Wikileaker' a crusade or ego trip?" --Telegraph
16:39:28 <AnMaster> alise, mobil.sr.se loads in a fraction of a second on a complete reload. the bbc link loads in about 1.5 seconds, sr.se in about 2
16:39:28 <alise> AnMaster: But no, I didn't see that.
16:39:39 <alise> Yeah, but complete reloads are pointless :P
16:39:42 <alise> And our site is better designed so nyah
16:39:46 <alise> And you don't have to use the mobile site
16:39:56 <alise> AnMaster: I did hear that Rejkyavik or whatever elected a joke party.
16:40:02 <alise> Which turned out to actually be the best party in the elections.
16:40:17 <AnMaster> alise, check that link out. Assange planted the idea originally from what I read
16:41:21 <alise> If only they had more than four people in the entire country.
16:41:29 <AnMaster> still, the laws are not in place, they just decided that they will design them and put them in place
16:41:47 <alise> (The four people are Bjork, two of the members of Sigur Rós (the other two are fictional), and the Prime Minister.)
16:41:57 <AnMaster> alise, there is about the same number of people in this Swedish equiv of county where I live and on Iceland. Slightly less on iceland iirc
16:43:03 <alise> AnMaster: a popular (well, in indie circles) post-rock band from Iceland.
16:43:36 <AnMaster> alise, anyway they have cheap energy on iceland. Thermal energy. Looks like a haven for green data centers as long as you put in a dust filter (ash in the heatsink can't be good!)
16:43:36 -!- cheater99 has joined.
16:43:54 <alise> Yeah. I just couldn't live somewhere so tiny, though.
16:44:25 <alise> Well, as far as people go.
16:44:51 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0f/Islande_-_Rekjavik_du_haut_de_la_cath%C3%A9drale.JPG This is Central Rekjavík. 'Nuff said.
16:45:11 <AnMaster> how many inhabitants in Rekjavik?
16:45:57 <alise> 118,427 in 277.1 km^2. 200,852 in 1,062.24 km^2 in the Greater Reykjavík Area (i.e. the only metropolitan area in Iceland).
16:46:07 <alise> (that latter total includes Reykjavík itself)
16:46:11 <AnMaster> my guess is around the same as this town, which just happens to formally be a city. One of the last ones to become a city before they dropped the concept of special city rights (I think it was around 1920 or 1930 or so)
16:47:02 <alise> Total population of Iceland is 317,593, but the 100,000 or so not in the Greater Reykjavík Area just, like, live in volcanoes or something.
16:47:07 <alise> AnMaster: Well, it's still a very small place.
16:47:14 <alise> AnMaster: Besides.
16:47:20 <alise> AnMaster: The Greater Reykjavík Area is a large area of Iceland.
16:47:32 <AnMaster> yeah, slightly larger than the largest city of this county-equiv.
16:47:34 <alise> AnMaster: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/91/H%C3%B6fu%C3%B0borgarsv%C3%A6%C3%B0i.svg
16:47:40 <alise> AnMaster: That red portion is the Greater Reykjavík Area.
16:47:45 <alise> So really it's a county.
16:47:54 <alise> And consider that outside of there there is /no metropolises/.
16:47:58 <alise> Just villages and the like.
16:48:04 <alise> *there are /no metropolises/.
16:48:18 <AnMaster> I'm not sure I would call Reykjavík a metropolis as such though
16:48:48 <alise> Newcastle, the nearest city to where I live, has 273,600 people in just 113 km^2.
16:48:52 <AnMaster> In fact I'm pretty sure I *wouldn't*
16:49:08 <alise> Yeah, but it's a "regular city" so to speak.
16:49:31 <alise> Oh, and Tyneside, a very small portion of England around it, has 800,000.
16:49:36 <AnMaster> alise, remember that Stockholm including suburbs has about 1 000 000 inhabitants iirc
16:49:36 <alise> So yeah: Iceland is /almost empty/.
16:49:41 <AnMaster> London is way larger than that
16:49:49 <alise> AnMaster: Well, Reykjavík has lots of technology and the like.
16:49:58 <AnMaster> so UK "regular city" is larger than Swedish regular city
16:50:03 <alise> It is a very modern city with a lot of enterpriseyness (in fact, all of it in the country!) and the like.
16:50:06 <alise> AnMaster: London is not a regular city.
16:50:18 <AnMaster> alise, well nor is Stockholm around here
16:50:19 <alise> AnMaster: London is /fucking huge/ by anyone's standards.
16:50:28 <alise> Greater London has /7,556,900 people/.
16:50:34 <AnMaster> alise, Stockholm is fucking huge by Swedish standards!
16:50:39 <alise> In just 1,572 km^2.
16:50:57 <AnMaster> and the Icelandic people must lack words to describe the size of london
16:51:15 <alise> "Thousand thousand thousand thousand thousand thousand thousand thousand Reykjavík."
16:51:20 <alise> "Sorry, how many thousands was that?"
16:51:39 <AnMaster> alise, scientific notation for the win
16:53:08 <alise> Maybe I should download those Afghan documents in case they get taken down.
16:53:18 <alise> Although they've gotta be on a billion torrents by now.
16:53:26 <alise> AnMaster: "This document, released by WikiLeaks on February 18th 2010 at 19:00 UTC, describes meetings between embassy chief Sam Watson (CDA) and members of the Icelandic government, together with British Ambassador Ian Whiting."
16:53:43 <alise> AnMaster: So much for supporting the Icelandic government for the Modern Media Initiative :D
16:53:49 <AnMaster> alise, oh and London represents about 81% of the entire Swedish population (based on your figure and wikipedia's figure for the Swedish population)
16:54:08 <alise> London is basically a tiny country. :P
16:54:30 <fizzie> This (Finland) is a pretty empty place too, though the Helsinki metropolitan area is approaching something reasonably city-like in most scales; there's a tiny bit over a million in what's counted as the "urban area", and something like 1.3 million in those regions where 10 % or more of people have their jobs in Helsinki.
16:54:42 <AnMaster> I think I would like Iceland, apart from the language
16:55:02 <alise> The language is pretty beautiful though.
16:55:11 <alise> fizzie: You have... things and people and other cities, though.
16:55:15 <AnMaster> yeah but learning it? not a chance
16:55:24 <AnMaster> I hate larger cities. a town on about 20000 is quite nice
16:55:26 <alise> "# U.S. Embassy profiles on Icelandic PM, Foreign Minister, Ambassador"
16:55:38 <alise> Are you /sure/ Iceland decided that initiative because of Wikileaks? :D
16:55:57 <alise> Where I am is quite a nice town.
16:56:10 <alise> But it is a bit ... empty.
16:56:14 <AnMaster> alise, well, I read a few news articles and watched a youtube interview of Assange from 2009
16:56:17 <alise> There's nothing much you can do at all, and few people.
16:56:22 <AnMaster> it was that youtube video that made me look this up
16:56:27 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hexham
16:56:32 <AnMaster> think it was from December 2009
16:56:52 <alise> The Abbey is a bit creepy.
16:56:58 <fizzie> Iceland has a very nice ranking on the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_density list -- 232nd, in a list of 239.
16:57:17 <alise> fizzie: Fucking Greenland!
16:57:29 <alise> Hey, Australia is cheating.
16:57:36 <AnMaster> anyway that number is not very representative, I mean it varies hugely between different parts of most countries
16:57:41 <fizzie> Norway and Finland both are out of the top-200, but Sweden's in (194th).
16:57:42 <alise> Australia is totally dense in all the places where /there's actually any people/ :P
16:58:01 <alise> Rather than just three people playing digeredoos or however you spell it per square million kilometers.
16:58:07 <AnMaster> having some kind of graph showing distribution of it would be nice, I admit I have to work a bit on what exactly to show
16:58:16 <fizzie> It's representative of the fraction of people in the country and area of the country, nothing more, nothing less.
16:58:17 <AnMaster> a map with color coding for density is obvious
16:58:24 <AnMaster> but I wanted a x/y style graph
16:58:38 <alise> Macau has 18,534.247 people per square kilometre
16:59:06 <alise> (Note: It is only 29.2 km^2.)
16:59:09 <AnMaster> I mean, Sweden is very very unevenly distributed
16:59:17 <alise> Whoa, holy shit, Monaco is only 1.95 km^2. So what do they have apart from the Formula 1 track?
16:59:28 <fizzie> Everything is very unevenly distributed. Well, except places like Monaco.
16:59:31 <AnMaster> in north Sweden you can go for miles without getting a GSM signal (unless you have Telia)
16:59:54 <AnMaster> and telia is only because the govt (used to?) own a large part of their shares
16:59:58 <AnMaster> alise, I was getting to that :P
17:00:31 <alise> "iPhone 4: Nu förändras allt. Igen."
17:00:35 <alise> Sweden is really bad at making things sound elegant.
17:00:42 <AnMaster> alise, they used to be a completely state owned thing. But then there was that rage for making govt stuff private companies during the 1990s
17:00:43 <alise> Almost as bad as German.
17:00:51 <alise> AnMaster: We had that!
17:01:00 <fizzie> "Now everything changes. Again."
17:01:04 <AnMaster> <alise> "iPhone 4: Nu förändras allt. Igen." <-- "Now everything change. Again."
17:01:07 <alise> Wait ... that doesn't work.
17:01:10 <AnMaster> I don't think You *can* make that sound good
17:01:17 <AnMaster> it is like the worst slogan ever.
17:01:27 <alise> and I think Telia invented it
17:01:31 <alise> it doesn't appear on Apple's site.
17:01:38 <alise> "This changes everything. Again."
17:01:48 <alise> slightly better than "Now everything changes. Again."
17:01:52 <AnMaster> alise, telia managed to say that maemo was a browser in their desc for n900
17:01:59 <alise> At least it tells you /what/ is doing the changing.
17:02:32 <fizzie> alise: It's "Nyt kaikki muuttuu. Taas." (which is very close to "Now everything changes. Again.") on Sonera's (the Finnish iPhone exclusivity-holder) site.
17:02:39 <alise> Hey, Apple finally did what they should have done instead of the Mighty Mouse, and released their laptop touchpad as a standalone device.
17:02:42 <alise> Was that really so hard?
17:02:48 <alise> AnMaster: TeliaSonera.
17:02:49 <AnMaster> Isn't it TeliaSonera these days? Actually
17:02:59 <alise> WHY DO I KNOW THAT.
17:03:01 <alise> AnMaster: sonera in finland
17:03:03 <alise> http://www.sonera.fi/
17:03:08 <fizzie> The brand's still called Sonera.
17:03:09 <alise> so {Telia, Sonera} are brands of TeliaSonera
17:03:22 <AnMaster> I mean, on stuff like the SIM cards and such it says Telia
17:03:28 <fizzie> The corporation's official name has Telia in it, I believe.
17:03:56 <AnMaster> I believe they use TeliaSonera for there tire1 stuff
17:04:11 <fizzie> Well, there might be also a company called "Sonera" still; corporate ownership is a jungle.
17:04:29 <alise> "# Fontvieille was added as fourth ward, a newly constructed area reclaimed from the sea (in the 1970s)"
17:04:35 <alise> Dammit, we deserve more space! RECLAIM THE SEA.
17:04:36 <AnMaster> why do I always mix up tire and tier
17:04:43 <fizzie> http://www.teliasonera.com/Markets-and-Brands/ lists that Telia, Halebop (in Sweden) and Sonera, TeleFinland (in Finland) are "majority-owned companies" of TeliaSonera.
17:05:16 <AnMaster> oh yeah, halebop is the so-called low price brand
17:05:27 <alise> "Note: for statistical purposes, the wards of Monaco are further subdivided into 173 city blocks (îlots)"
17:05:33 <alise> THE WHOLE COUNTRY IS LESS THAN 2 KM^2
17:05:39 <AnMaster> only web support. And when I calculated on the costs, telia turned out cheaper
17:05:41 <alise> HOW CAN YOU SUBDIVIDE IT INTO 6 FUCKING REGIONS
17:05:44 <olsner> I thought halebop was exclusively pre-paid cards?
17:05:46 <alise> THEN SUBDIVIDE THOSE INTO 173
17:05:51 <fizzie> Also the so-called "obnoxious phone sales" brand.
17:05:54 <alise> each îlot must be like
17:06:01 <alise> one square millimetre
17:06:01 <AnMaster> that was due to sucky student discounts for halebop and better ones for telia
17:06:29 <alise> fizzie: http://www.tele.fi/
17:06:33 <alise> The person scares me.
17:06:46 <alise> http://www.halebop.se/start
17:06:51 <alise> The woman scares me.
17:06:51 <fizzie> alise: Oh gods, the guy. You should see the animated commercials.
17:06:57 <alise> Also every other drawing.
17:07:14 <alise> fizzie: Thanks to the power of YouTube, I can.
17:07:18 <fizzie> alise: Yes, it seems you can.
17:07:29 <fizzie> Try the "skeittimummo" one for starters.
17:07:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, is it as bad as that ISP... I think it is bredbandsbolaget or perhaps comhem? They use some animated figure too
17:07:30 <alise> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vA-xPfKnlFc
17:07:50 <fizzie> It seems that you selected the right one independently, too.
17:07:56 <alise> Bredbandsbolaget are the only Swedish ISP to offer 100 Mb/s internet, I think.
17:07:57 <alise> Why do I Know that.
17:08:12 <alise> fizzie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRYFwX-H3nY A 3D one.
17:08:39 <olsner> I don't watch television so I wouldn't have seen any such adverts
17:08:46 <olsner> alise: plenty others do too
17:09:12 <AnMaster> and tele2 use a sheep. as a stupid play on sheep and cheap. which aren't even pronounced the same way, but do happen to sound quite close if you aren't good at English, due to Swedish missing one of those sound variants
17:09:24 <fizzie> We don't have a TV either, but I've still seen those commercials here and there; horrible.
17:10:24 <AnMaster> <alise> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vA-xPfKnlFc <-- oh god. What a failure
17:10:40 <AnMaster> I don't watch TV. Could be as bad here. Don't know
17:10:42 <alise> Has anyone listened to an HDCD?
17:10:42 <fizzie> AnMaster: It's supposed to be "hip", you see.
17:10:52 <olsner> alise: I have comhem 100/10 right now, used to have bahnhof before I moved here (which was technically 100/10 but they didn't seem to actually limit the upload)
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17:11:35 <AnMaster> remember that incomprehensible ad about cars. VW I think
17:11:53 <AnMaster> this reminds me of that. But worse
17:12:06 <alise> Volkswagen adverts tend to be a bit strange.
17:12:16 <AnMaster> alise, wasn't there something about pimp your car
17:12:22 <alise> Nobody listened to an HDCD?
17:12:56 <alise> Some patented extension to Redbook stuffing more quality in there, some tricks to get 20 bits of signal out of 16 bit samples it seems.
17:13:00 <alise> Now owned by Microsoft.
17:13:22 <AnMaster> alise, 20 bits out of 16? Go ask CSI for that
17:13:25 <alise> I'm doing some piracy; one of the rips is from the HDCD, so I'm just wondering whether it's worthwhile at all.
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17:13:33 <alise> HDCD encodes the equivalent of 20 bits worth of data in a 16-bit digital audio signal by using custom dithering, audio filters, and some reversible amplitude and gain encoding; Peak Extend, which is a reversible soft limiter and Low Level Range Extend, which is a reversible gain on low-level signals. There is thus a benefit at the expense of a very minor increase in noise.[2][3][4][5]
17:13:33 <alise> HDCD encoding places a control signal in the least significant bit of a small subset of the 16-bit Red Book audio samples (a technique known as in-band signaling). The HDCD decoder in the consumer's CD or DVD player, if present, responds to the signal. If no decoder is present, the disc will be played as a regular CD.
17:13:34 <alise> In itself, the use of the first bit in the dithered least significant bit stream will degrade the sound quality on a non-HDCD player by decreasing the signal-to-noise ratio but only by a minuscule amount. HDCD Peak Extension, if chosen in HDCD mastering, will apply compression to the peaks which will be audible in playback on a non-HDCD system which does not apply the appropriate expansion curve.
17:13:55 <fizzie> Yes, based on the description it's more like 20 bits of dynamic range than 20 bits of precision.
17:14:19 <AnMaster> good thing I haven't run into them. I hate noise
17:14:28 <alise> You don't have golden ears.
17:14:36 <alise> You can't hear it.
17:14:36 <AnMaster> alise, and I doubt I could hear the difference between 16 and 20 bits
17:14:52 <alise> Hehe, if AnMaster is horrified by that, wait until he finds out what psychoacoustic encoders do. (I bet he thinks he can distinguish LAME -V2 from FLAC...)
17:15:27 <AnMaster> alise, no I don't. I do however think I can hear a difference between your average non-lame encoder and flac :P
17:15:50 <alise> Well, if you mean the original one, or that awful one that I forget its name.
17:16:20 <fizzie> Doubtfully you could then hear the difference between 15 bits and 16 bits (w.r.t. added noise), especially if they're being clever with how it alters the least significant bit, and it sounds like they are.
17:16:54 <alise> Wait, why don't I just rip my own copy of the album.
17:17:00 <alise> Oh, right. I don't have a CD drive.
17:17:51 <alise> Eh, I guess I am too resistant to change; I will just download the regular FLAC rip.
17:18:02 <AnMaster> alise, so you installed linux with usb stick?
17:18:04 <alise> ...although the HDCD version does have more seeders...
17:18:49 <AnMaster> alise, I'm pretty sure you can play an ISO
17:18:50 <alise> AnMaster: Actually, I had no USB stick to hand! I used unetbootin -- random Linux ISO to USB stick + if on Windows USB bootloader installed, program, very useful -- to extract the Ubuntu ISO to the Windows drive (it can do that).
17:18:57 <AnMaster> if nothing else, by using loop mount
17:19:00 <alise> I then booted up with the Unetbootin option in the Windows bootloader on next boot.
17:19:13 <alise> And voilà: it booted Ubuntu from the Windows drive.
17:19:28 <alise> Partitioning was fun, since it saw the CD-ROM drive weirdly as it was on another partition, virtual and stuff.
17:19:37 <alise> So I had to do some lazy, forced unmounting, then remounting it so the installer didn't break.
17:20:09 <AnMaster> alise, had to work on first try, I mean. you get one chance, loading the iso into ram. And then once you overwrite it, it has to work
17:20:34 <alise> No, I failed the first time and even ended up with a GRUB 2 without any files, which could do nothing.
17:20:34 <AnMaster> alise, unless you are dual booting?
17:20:38 <alise> Eventually I fixed it with a USB stick.
17:20:40 <alise> AnMaster: Yeah, dual booting.
17:20:47 <alise> AnMaster: This laptop helpfully came with a "data" partition on half the disk.
17:20:49 <alise> So I just used that.
17:21:14 <alise> Specifically, I used Unetbootin on the really shitty computer to get a USB stick with GRUB on it.
17:21:20 <alise> I then used GRUB to chainload the Windows bootloader.
17:21:27 <alise> Once booted in, I used Unetbootin again, and this time did it right.
17:21:34 <alise> And, unbelievably, it worked.
17:21:39 <alise> AnMaster: Yeah, separate OS/data partition.
17:21:40 <alise> Like /home partition.
17:22:07 <alise> Hmm, why do I have six and a half gigabytes of swap?
17:22:18 <alise> AnMaster: 250 GB total.
17:22:48 <alise> AnMaster: 419 MB of what I think is some restore partition, 125 GB unused stock Toshiba-branded Windows 7, 118 GB ext4 Ubuntu, 6.4 GB inexplicable swap.
17:23:14 <alise> Consider that this laptop has a battery that lasts almost as long as a netbook's, is basically as light as a MacBook Air,
17:23:15 <fizzie> You can't "play an ISO" if you mean a regular .iso image of an audio CD, because regular .iso images are made of the 2048-byte data sectors, while audio CDs put 2352 bytes of audio data per frame, with less error-correction code.
17:23:32 <alise> has a wonderful screen that is glossy yet this is unnoticeable, but since it's not matte it's usable in daylight, and very high dpi,
17:23:40 <alise> has a good keyboard for a laptop
17:24:19 <AnMaster> fizzie, wouldn't that be reflected in the iso file?
17:24:50 <alise> I'm voluntarily using this laptop instead of my iMac. So, yeah, I like it.
17:24:53 <AnMaster> alise, does it have fluid drains from the keyboard?
17:25:06 <alise> No. Wouldn't you just tell me not to spill things, anyway?
17:25:14 <alise> "Gee, you shouldn't be drinking near the computer."
17:25:19 <alise> No, but the trackpad is good and I'm just using a mouse.
17:25:34 <AnMaster> alise, well I would avoid spilling things. It however nice to know that just in case, it is there
17:25:40 <alise> I never said it's perfect. But all that list I gave you are things my laptop has and yours doesn't. :P
17:25:50 <alise> I drink near the computer, I'm just not in the habit of spilling things.
17:26:03 <alise> Besides, there's a protective layer of some sort underneath the keyboard, obviously; so you could just drain it manually if you really did spill something.
17:26:08 <AnMaster> still, nice to know just in case, at university and such, Someone else might have a water bottle nearby
17:26:59 <alise> It's not like there's a circuit board directly underneath.
17:26:59 <AnMaster> alise, how many express card slots?
17:27:05 <alise> AnMaster: 0. Thank god.
17:27:14 <alise> I never said it was your ideal laptop, just that it was mine.
17:27:24 <fizzie> AnMaster: No, because there's no metadata in the "file format", if you can call it that; it's just a dump of the data portion of a data CD. You couldn't even have multiple tracks in a .iso image. You can of course have a bit-exact audio CD image (in the .bin/.cue format, or some others), but it won't be a "ISO image" in the usual sense.
17:27:26 <AnMaster> alise, well, I don't use the express card slot
17:27:30 <alise> AnMaster: PC Card esque things are a bit ... awful.
17:27:31 <AnMaster> it is nice to have, just in case
17:27:42 <alise> Okay, so it's not even that big a deal. But!
17:27:48 <alise> The sides are all filled up.
17:28:05 <alise> I won't sacrifice a display port, one of the four USB ports, the Ethernet port, etc. for it.
17:28:09 <alise> Wait, maybe that is...
17:28:16 <alise> Maybe an SD card slot.
17:28:31 <AnMaster> one useless feature on my laptop: softmodem. There is a modem port at the back. I don't know why anyone still puts that in
17:28:36 <fizzie> ExpressCard is so confusing; there's all kinds of /34 or /54 things, what's up with the slashes. I grew up with PCMCIA/CardBus, and it was good enough for me. Get off my lawn!
17:29:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, iirc I have one express card slot and one PC Card. Or something like that. When looking into the slots the connectors are different at the back anyway
17:30:21 <AnMaster> however, a better use for that area would actually be re-arranging the internal components to have a larger battery pack instead
17:30:24 <fizzie> Right, they would be. ExpressCard/54 and CardBus/"PC Card" have the same width, but the PC Card connector is full-width.
17:31:28 <AnMaster> yeah, just checked, bottom one full width and top one less than full width
17:32:15 <alise> Two on left, two on right.
17:32:36 <alise> Ha ha ha, wait, I don't give a shit.
17:32:56 <alise> Or, at least, /some/ digital display connector.
17:33:01 <alise> They're so hard to tell apart these days.
17:33:16 <AnMaster> alise, well, which one? isn't there some marking at it indicating which one
17:33:28 <alise> Representing a screen.
17:33:40 <AnMaster> that is what I have about the vga port on this
17:34:02 <fizzie> It's especially hard now that they have three different sizes of standard HDMI ports.
17:34:29 <fizzie> AnMaster: Probably they were jealous of USB, which also has "normal", "mini" and "micro" variants.
17:34:40 <AnMaster> alise, check xrandr. It just might tell you something useful
17:34:40 <fizzie> AnMaster: The three HDMI ports are also normal, mini and micro.
17:35:01 <AnMaster> except mine tells me that VGA1, LVDS1, HDMI1, DP1 and DP2 all exist
17:35:03 <alise> HDMI1 disconnected (normal left inverted right x axis y axis)
17:35:08 <alise> DP1 disconnected (normal left inverted right x axis y axis)
17:35:08 <alise> DP2 disconnected (normal left inverted right x axis y axis)
17:35:15 <alise> LVDS1 has the resolution list.
17:35:17 <alise> And the others don't.
17:35:30 <AnMaster> the other would contain external, if connected
17:35:53 <AnMaster> it can't list monitor resolutions for unconnected monitors, obviously
17:35:56 <alise> Screen 0: minimum 320 x 200, current 1366 x 768, maximum 8192 x 8192
17:36:00 <alise> 8192 x 8192, fuck yeah
17:36:06 <alise> Will that fry my screen if I try it? :D
17:36:19 <AnMaster> alise, that is X support or something
17:36:27 <AnMaster> you can't get that on the screen
17:36:29 <alise> Will it downscale it for my screen?
17:36:46 <AnMaster> alise, video mode not supported error *probably*, but who knows
17:36:58 <AnMaster> alise, you might get that old style scrollable virtual screen thing of X
17:37:00 <fizzie> If it's not on the actual resolution list, it most probably won't do anything.
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17:37:21 <AnMaster> on my desktop I get: Screen 0: minimum 320 x 240, current 1680 x 1050, maximum 1680 x 1050
17:37:28 <AnMaster> since I know the card supports more
17:37:31 <fizzie> Though I guess changing the virtual screen size is possible too; I just thought xrandr only handles the physical state of outputs.
17:37:53 <AnMaster> wait, I don't think the xrandr thing is loaded
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17:38:05 <AnMaster> there is no invert stuff and such
17:38:23 <AnMaster> indeed, not in the modules list
17:38:27 <fizzie> What, no support for rotations?
17:38:36 <fizzie> Oh, is this the nvidia binary driver?
17:38:54 <fizzie> It has horrible xrandr support.
17:39:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, okay. but until noveau supports 3D well enough for my needs I'm stuck on it.
17:40:01 <fizzie> There's some sort of attempted support that if you pass Option "RandRRotation" to the nvidia driver, it'll try to fake it so that you can set the orientation with it.
17:40:21 <alise> How can I tell what card I have again? I don't know much about this system.
17:40:40 <AnMaster> alise, lspci, Xorg.0.log, dmesg, lshw ?
17:40:40 <fizzie> AnMaster: On the other hand, "Workstation RGB or CI overlay visuals will function at lower performance and the video overlay will not be available when RandRRotation is enabled."
17:40:59 <fizzie> OpenGL renderer string: GeForce 7600 GT/PCI/SSE2
17:41:36 <alise> It has even been reported, although apparently without historical documentation, that Adolf Hitler was influenced by concave hollow-Earth ideas and sent an expedition in an unsuccessful attempt to spy on the British fleet by aiming infrared cameras up into the sky[7] (Wagner, 1999).[8]
17:42:12 <fizzie> What is a shame is that good old "ethtool --identify" ("initiates adapter-specific action intended to enable an operator to easily identify the adapter by sight. Typically this involves blinking one or more LEDs on the specific ethernet port") isn't -- I think; I haven't really made a survey out of this -- implemented by many modernish drivers.
17:42:13 <alise> fizzie: I have no such line in my glxinfo.
17:42:37 <fizzie> Well, "lspci" pretty often works too.
17:42:45 <alise> OpenGL renderer string: Mesa DRI Mobile Intel® GM45 Express Chipset GEM 20091221 2009Q4
17:42:46 <AnMaster> OpenGL vendor string: Tungsten Graphics, Inc
17:42:46 <AnMaster> OpenGL renderer string: Mesa DRI Mobile Intel® GM45 Express Chipset GEM 20091221 2009Q4
17:42:55 <alise> So /that's/ why the graphics are so good on this.
17:43:06 <alise> AnMaster: the Mesa developers, I think
17:43:07 <AnMaster> alise, hey you have same as mine
17:43:17 <alise> Great card, innit.
17:43:24 <alise> The Mesa 3D Graphics Library Developer(s) VMware (previously Tungsten Graphics)[1]
17:43:29 <AnMaster> alise, might have improved recently
17:43:32 <alise> AnMaster: Well, I like it.
17:43:35 <alise> Works great with Linux.
17:43:53 <fizzie> Tungsten Graphics apparently also maintain DRI.
17:43:56 <AnMaster> alise, well, it (used to?) render some games incorrectly. But I haven't tried them since jaunty
17:44:07 <alise> *sigh* I hate light pollution.
17:44:20 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/Light_pollution_country_versus_city.png
17:44:41 <alise> What I wouldn't give to live in somewhere with as wonderful skies as the top image but with, you know, modern conveniences.
17:45:31 <AnMaster> alise, oh and, last I tried (again under jaunty) my laptop failed to drive my desktop monitor at full res, It supported lower and higher but not the same as native
17:45:58 <fizzie> Around here it looks like the lower pic, except more orange. (We have lots of low-pressure sodium-vapor streetlights.)
17:47:24 * alise downloads the HDCD rip.
17:47:30 <alise> It's the only one with enough seeders.
17:48:03 <fizzie> Does the info say if it's done by actually decoding the HDCD signal, or just out of the HDCD CD?
17:48:19 <fizzie> (It sounds like software support for HDCD isn't exactly widespread, since, you know, patented.)
17:48:30 <alise> fizzie: Decoded with DSP.
17:48:42 <alise> Into a 24-bit container, with 4 empty bits.
17:49:01 <fizzie> Ah, well, that's good, then.
17:49:48 <alise> A lot of blab in the comments about how zomg-amazing the drums are but, uh, I have a feeling they're full of shit.
17:49:56 <alise> I'm not sure if I have a 24-bit soundcard. How could I check?
17:51:22 <alise> Does anyone still use cdparanoia these days, by the way? I like that little program.
17:51:26 <alise> Huh, it's still developed.
17:51:46 <alise> Sorry, "CDDA Paranoia". :P
17:52:00 <alise> [[Cdparanoia is a Compact Disc Digital Audio (CDDA) Digital Audio Extraction (DAE) tool, commonly known on the net as a 'ripper'.]]
17:52:19 <AnMaster> alise, your laptop does gbit ethernet?
17:52:19 <fizzie> Err... well, you could try "aplay -l" and then looking in the internet for the chipset name it gives. I'm not sure if there's any tool that directly would tell you what it managed to open or not.
17:52:43 <alise> AnMaster: Probably. "How can I check?"
17:52:43 <AnMaster> <alise> Does anyone still use cdparanoia these days, by the way? I like that little program. <-- erhm, me?
17:53:02 <alise> fizzie: Just "HDA Intel".
17:53:11 <alise> HD, so presumably 24-bit.
17:53:15 <alise> HD Audio and what not.
17:53:17 <AnMaster> 04:00.0 Ethernet controller: Broadcom Corporation NetLink BCM5787M Gigabit Ethernet PCI Express (rev 02)
17:53:24 <alise> 07:00.0 Ethernet controller: Atheros Communications Atheros AR8132 / L1c Gigabit Ethernet Adapter (rev c0)
17:53:49 <alise> "Hardware based on Intel HD Audio specifications is capable of delivering 192-kHz 32-bit quality for two channels, and 96-kHz 32-bit for up to eight channels." Although of course that says nothing about my hardware.
17:53:56 <alise> "However, as of 2008[update], most audio hardware manufacturers do not implement the full high-end specification, especially 32-bit sampling resolution."
17:54:08 <alise> IN MY DAY WE HAD AC'97.
17:54:10 <alise> And we *liked* it.
17:54:19 <fizzie> You could try playing out your fancy 24-bit file, and then checking "pactl list"'s horribly long output as to what is the "Sample Specification" for the output sink it's going to.
17:54:26 <AnMaster> alise, indeed. intel hda in my laptop too. Crappier sound than sb live 5.1 in desktop
17:54:38 <alise> Well, I have crappy laptop speakers. So I don't care.
17:54:44 <alise> Which makes this 24-bit thing doubly pointless, but, uh.
17:54:47 <alise> Actually the speakers aren't crappy.
17:54:53 <alise> They're very good for laptop speakers; very good.
17:55:02 <fizzie> (Of course this assumes pulse would properly grok that the hardware supports 24-bit audio and not down-convert it.)
17:55:04 <AnMaster> oh the speakers, they are crappy in my laptop. I compared with moving headphones
17:55:08 <alise> Not so good on the bass, yes... but still very good on the bass, compared to the tinny crap you get.
17:55:19 <alise> Yeah, they're crappy, but all laptop speakers are. I'm relatively happy with these ones.
17:55:21 <alise> A bit too quiet though.
17:55:38 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
17:55:54 <alise> Anyone remember when Plextor was THE drive to get for audio extraction?
17:56:01 <fizzie> Well, *my* laptop has a potentiometer-based hardware volume control knob, which makes a delightful low-fi noise when you twiddle it.
17:56:09 <alise> They just rebrand other people's drives now. :(
17:56:22 <coppro> man, I look so epically bad
17:56:37 <fizzie> AnMaster: (It's that pentium-100-or-so I don't really use.)
17:56:41 <coppro> I look so epically bad
17:56:55 <coppro> oops, sorry for the double message
17:57:14 <alise> coppro: pics or it didn't happen
17:57:24 <alise> although i guess there is no "event" to "happen"
17:57:29 <alise> unless we're talking in the sense of "time still existing"
17:57:34 <coppro> suffice to say I'm dressed in a suit, which looks good
17:57:44 <coppro> and I have a pink tie that I can't get to look quite right
17:57:44 <fizzie> alise: This is a bit late, but yes, I do use cdparanoia, for some small values of "use". (We don't really have that many audio CDs.)
17:58:09 <alise> The only reason to buy audio CDs is to get a good rip.
17:58:16 <alise> coppro: It's pink. 'Nuff said.
17:58:35 <fizzie> Maybe you could dip it in ink?
17:58:49 <alise> What's that? Dip the pink
17:59:20 <coppro> it's supposed to be pink
17:59:20 <fizzie> alise: That's my particular kink.
17:59:29 <coppro> I have a perfectly serviceable blue tie here too
17:59:34 <coppro> but that just wouldn't be the same
17:59:57 <alise> Okay, how do I strip images from a FLAC file?
18:00:00 <AnMaster> alise, this bug however causes mayhem for me currently: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/524281
18:00:09 <alise> fizzie: That's your kink? Well I do fink
18:00:16 <alise> That's more than a little rinky-dink-dink.
18:01:35 <alise> Maybe I'll just compile Amarok 1.
18:01:42 <alise> It has the feature of not sucking.
18:02:32 <alise> Hmm, wait. There is also DeaDBeeF and Aqualung to consider...
18:02:55 <alise> Or I could run Foobar in wine. :)
18:03:17 <fizzie> AnMaster: Incidentally, the micro-HDMI connector is about the same size as micro-USB (2.8 x 6.4 mm, actually even a bit smaller), but it still has the full 19 pins of a regular HDMI connector. That's some seriously tiny pins.
18:03:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, what is wrong with the normal size?
18:04:00 <alise> Actually, Foobar in Wine isn't such a bad idea.
18:04:16 <AnMaster> I mean, putting a db on a phone seems about useless
18:04:23 <AnMaster> and on laptop standard size fits neatly
18:04:54 <alise> ... But if I'm using Foobar in Wine, why not just use DeaDBeeF?
18:05:03 <fizzie> AnMaster: It's very much not useless: you can watch your favourite movies on-the-go on the hotel TV. (Okay, so you'd probably also have that laptop, but still. And I've been traveling around with just the N900 lately.)
18:05:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah I'm not the target audience I see
18:05:59 <alise> Yeah, AnMaster doesn't watch entertainment.
18:06:30 <alise> Q: How many Prolog programmers does it take to change light bulb?
18:06:31 <alise> Q: How many Mercury programmers does it take to change light bulb?
18:06:31 <alise> A: Four. One to change the light bulb and three to distract the nurses.
18:06:38 <AnMaster> I watch on youtube sometimes. I find the stuff on TV pretty much shit
18:06:54 <fizzie> I hate how they have a nice TV (with reasonable speakers) I could hook up the phone into in a hotel room, and then they completely screw any possibility of that by (a) not having any control buttons on the TV set, and (b) by providing only a "for dummies" variant of the TV remote, which doesn't make it possible to select any of the (four or so) external inputs of the TV.
18:07:52 <fizzie> No, but there's a (blurry) composite-video/RCA-audio thing.
18:08:00 <alise> fizzie: Carry around a universal remote. :P
18:09:16 <fizzie> alise: The phone is a universal remote (it has a IR diode), but those TV models are always some sort of weird "business purposes only" models, and I can never find any lirc remote-protocol-files for them. (Of course a real universal remote would probably have some working codes; I don't usually have enough patience to start downloading files for non-matching models.)
18:10:06 <fizzie> Also I hear real universal remotes have nifty "point it at the TV, then press a button when something happens" auto-detection thingies.
18:10:32 <alise> I bought one that required you to hold down a button for like a minute then press something.
18:10:36 <alise> It was a fucking bitch-ass shitter.
18:11:58 <fizzie> What the what? I wasn't looking, and someone has added to this N900 QtIrreco tool a "download a remote from DB" choice.
18:12:37 <fizzie> Okay, the "DB" it uses seems to be pretty tiny. Phew. I was afraid something was going to non-suck.
18:13:18 <fizzie> There's surprisingly many air-conditioning systems listed; I didn't even know those have remote control in general.
18:14:46 -!- zzo38 has joined.
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18:15:36 <zzo38> O! Now I have corrected all problems with Icoruma->TeX program, except for overfull hboxes in tables.
18:15:37 -!- nooga has joined.
18:18:37 <fizzie> alise: Here's one way you could try for 24-bit sound: (with the volume way down) "aplay -L", then "aplay -D xxx -f S24_LE any.random.file", where xxx is a name from -L's list -- it'll try to play the file as raw audio data, and (at least here) say "Sample format non available; Available formats: [list]". (I'm just not completely sure I trust it, since it says that my hardware will play S16_LE and S32_LE, which sounds suspicious.)
18:19:36 <zzo38> My idea might be to make it calculate the minimum width of a paragraph box for only one word in a line, and the minimum width of all the words are on one line, and then insert a glue that stretches between those two widths?
18:20:45 <zzo38> Perhaps I will have to make it calculate the entire table before placing it on the page, similar to how I have it calculate the entire document before it ships it out
18:23:53 <alise> zzo38: You know, none of us have any idea what you're trying to do unless you tell us ...
18:24:20 <zzo38> alise: I thought I did tell you ...
18:24:31 <zzo38> What part of this do you not understand?
18:24:34 <alise> It got lost in fizzie's messages. Sorry.
18:25:01 <zzo38> fizzie only sent one message in between!
18:25:30 <oklopol> i already know my idea is awesome and works so i don't really care about you ppl's opinion
18:26:19 <alise> Ladies and Gentlemen,
18:26:25 <alise> The world Linux UI design
18:26:27 <alise> http://imgur.com/Ru2kI.png
18:26:35 <alise> Well, the UI is okay, with a different theme.
18:26:53 <oklopol> anyone here an expert in 2-structures
18:27:11 <zzo38> What does "world Linux UI design" mean?
18:28:45 <zzo38> Whether it is the worst or not I don't know, but what I do know is I would make the UI entirely differently than that
18:28:48 <oklopol> i guess you don't have those anyway being a supertyper
18:29:03 <zzo38> As well as the feature set
18:31:53 <alise> oklopol: I do make tons of typos.
18:31:59 <alise> I just correct them in less than a second.
18:32:14 <alise> I do have lots of thinkos, however, as I type thoughts as they are formed. I imagine most people type /after/ thinking ...
18:32:44 <oklopol> i usually think while typing too, but i both type and think rather slow so
18:33:45 <Flonk> alise: most people think after typing :D
18:34:44 <zzo38> I type fast, and often I do correct them in less than a second
18:35:11 <zzo38> But I type much faster when copying from something I have previously written on paper than when I am writing something new
18:35:47 <zzo38> Because when I write something new, I have to think of how I should write it down to make it meaningful and stuff like that
18:40:00 <alise> I write new thoughts quicker than copying.
18:41:15 <alise> fizzie: I'm playing the file; what command should I do, did you say?
18:43:16 <zzo38> But I am different because when I have new thoughts I have to think of how to write it. Writing new thoughts is not that much slower for me, though, than copying from a paper
18:43:22 <zzo38> But it is slightly slower
18:52:12 <alise> These speakers could do with more volume.
18:52:16 <alise> Maybe I'll just compress everything :P
18:53:29 <alise> Here's something that's Very Hard To Rip: Hidden tracks in the pregap of track 1 -- can be listened to by rewinding to "track 0" on most CD players.
18:53:35 <alise> But many, many CD-ROM drives simply cannot do it.
18:54:25 <fizzie> alise: Come to think of it, you could just use "mplayer -v" and check the messages. On my system, "mplayer -ao alsa -format s24le -v blah" says "[AO_ALSA] Format s24le is not supported by hardware, trying default" and builds a filter chain; s16le and s32le come out of the hardware. (I guess it's possible it fakes the 32-bit at some layer, but I don't think it should if you use a directly-hardwarey ALSA device.)
18:54:57 <alise> Ah well, it sounds alright; I wouldn't be able to tell on these speakers, anyway.
18:55:15 <alise> If I had a proper chair and some good speakers plugged in, I would be content. Yes, with the 13" screen; I've no problems with it.
18:55:31 <alise> In fact with excessive screen space I always get a little scared, what can I do with all this space that will do it justice and such. :P
18:55:31 <fizzie> Oh, right, the earlier command: pactl list | grep 'Sample Specification'
18:55:49 <alise> Just a bunch of lines with "16" in them.
18:55:49 <fizzie> If there's something more-than-16-bits going on there, it's probably playing with many bits.
18:56:06 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_albums_with_tracks_hidden_in_the_pregap
18:56:15 <alise> List of albums that are almost impossible to rip properly
18:56:53 <Sgeo> Someone hilighted me
19:03:30 <alise> Pet peeve: The spectrum analyser bars you see in music players.
19:03:35 <alise> They're useless and distracting.
19:05:09 <Gregor> Pet peeve: Music players with GUIs.
19:05:13 <Gregor> They're useless and distracting.
19:05:28 <Sgeo> Surely those bars are there for fun? So surely they're disableable?
19:05:47 <Sgeo> Yeah, one does not imply the other :/
19:06:12 <alise> Stick to super cow powers.
19:06:23 <alise> Gregor: They're not useless if you're trying to navigate a ton of music...
19:06:27 <alise> ...so I suppose you use mpdc?
19:06:41 <alise> You manually play the audio files
19:06:55 <Gregor> mplayer + bash = my music player
19:07:15 <Gregor> I navigate my music library with cd.
19:07:15 <alise> Thought so. I'd elaborate why th-- but that would be elaborating, finishing that sentence; so I won't.
19:07:16 <fizzie> alise: Apparently (source: interwebs) even if your hardware supports 24-bit audio, if you're playing through pulse, the PulseAudio daemon needs to be configured (via /etc/pulse/daemon.conf) to have a default sample format of something higher than s16le, otherwise everything will be clipped to that. (And after that everything you play will be internally converted to that many bits, adding to the resource drain. The same thing if you bump things up to 96 kHz or s
19:07:35 <alise> fizzie: Playing through ALSA (though Pulse is running.)
19:07:42 <alise> Or does Pulse override ALSA?
19:08:04 <fizzie> The default configuration makes the default alsa device direct things to PulseAudio, I think.
19:08:47 <fizzie> But yes, with laptop speakers you probably shouldn't care.
19:08:52 <alise> I can't even understand why people like PulseAudio.
19:08:55 <alise> It has absolutely no ... features.
19:09:17 <alise> "PulseAudio is an integral part of all relevant modern Linux distributions"
19:09:23 <alise> By defining "relevant" to mean "ones that use PulseAudio".
19:09:36 <fizzie> alise: So that you can get that "ding" sound when you do something wrong on top of the music you have playing on the background. (Discounting for a moment ALSA's own software mixer.)
19:09:53 <alise> Discounting the thing that already does a thing, it can do a thing!
19:09:53 <fizzie> Oh, and the "bep-drweeedle" sounds when someone sends you an IM message.
19:10:08 <alise> Another pet peeve: UI sounds.
19:10:16 <alise> Okay, the IM message notifications are quite useful, but.
19:10:24 <alise> It doesn't really sound like "bep-drweeedle". :P
19:10:34 <alise> More like "BAdum!".
19:10:56 <alise> When first adopted by the distributions PulseAudio developer Lennart Poettering described it as "the software that currently breaks your audio".[6] Poettering later claimed that "Ubuntu didn't exactly do a stellar job. They didn't do their homework" in adopting PulseAudio[7] for Ubuntu "Hardy Heron" (8.04), a problem which was then improved with subsequent Ubuntu releases.[8] However, Poettering is still not happy with Ubuntu's integration of PulseAudio.[9]
19:11:03 <alise> Wow, even the PulseAudio dev thinks Ubuntu's is especially crap.
19:11:46 <fizzie> Gregor: A friend of mine once did a Doom .wad file; for the door-opening and door-closing sounds, he substituted himself saying, in a laconic tone of voice, respectively, "clink-schloink" and "schlink-cloink". For some reason it was hilarious.
19:12:42 <Sgeo> Used to like an online station-like thingy called PulsRadio...
19:13:10 <AnMaster> <alise> But the VISUALS. <-- visuals?
19:13:11 <alise> Puls'Radio - Non-Stop Dance And Trance Music - Web Radio Trance ...
19:13:11 <alise> - [ Translate this page ]
19:13:11 <alise> Webradio orientée musique électronique dancefloor.
19:13:11 <alise> www.pulsradio.com/ - Cached - Similar
19:13:17 <alise> AnMaster: see my link
19:13:20 <alise> AnMaster: the visual appearance of it
19:13:27 <alise> rather than the other, important part of the UI (functionality, which is fine)
19:13:32 <alise> but that default theme!
19:13:43 <AnMaster> alise, rewrite it in motif. Then there will be one worse
19:14:01 <alise> AnMaster: Did you CLICK the link?
19:14:11 <AnMaster> http://i.imgur.com/Ru2kI.png ? yes
19:14:22 <alise> Motif looks way better than that.
19:14:39 <fizzie> Oh, and for music player comparisons; my current one is xmms2 and the "nyxmms2" CLI. The project is sadly a bit dead.
19:14:50 <alise> AnMaster: Bad, but... not /that/ bad.
19:15:02 <alise> xmms2 isn't really that dead afaik.
19:15:13 <alise> Anyway, mpd and xmms2 have the flaws that I didn't write them.
19:15:17 <fizzie> Well, not *dead*, just sort of.. slowey.
19:15:21 <AnMaster> alise, what is so bad about this one? The bg pattern is quite awful yes
19:15:33 <AnMaster> and colour choices could be better
19:15:35 <alise> AnMaster: The colours, and the background.
19:15:54 <alise> Well, no, but it did make me puke when I clicked on "default" theme after it started in "plain" theme (which is very very reasonable, GTK style).
19:15:56 <AnMaster> alise, what are the three sliders
19:16:08 <alise> Volume, balance (I think), position.
19:16:11 <alise> Balance because it's short and in the middle.
19:16:14 <alise> And next to volume.
19:16:24 <AnMaster> I dislike UIs where you have to hover the mouse to figure out what stuff is
19:16:24 <alise> As in L/R channel balance.
19:16:33 <fizzie> XMMS2's "AAC/MP4 (via faad2) and ASF/WMA (via ffmpeg) and libao output and whatnot" plugin developer's a friend, so I felt sort of obligated to try it out; it's passable.
19:16:36 <AnMaster> at least when there is no reason for it
19:17:00 <alise> Can ffmpeg actually poop crap out to an audio device? To use the correct terminology.
19:17:11 <alise> Hmm, why didn't I know of libao before?
19:17:44 <AnMaster> libao? some audio library, iirc... But then there are more audio libraries than there are GUI toolkits these days
19:17:59 <alise> So you Know It's Good.
19:18:02 <alise> It's what mplayer uses by default too.
19:18:13 <AnMaster> theora sucks, and aren't they behind it?
19:18:21 <alise> Theora sucks, /but/ it was a Good Try.
19:18:32 <alise> When it was released it was /unbearable/.
19:18:36 <alise> Then they made it acceptable.
19:18:39 <alise> AnMaster: No. But old.
19:18:44 <alise> And it was dormant when they got ahold of it.
19:18:53 <alise> Then they made it... you know, bad, but not terrible.
19:18:54 * Sgeo wonders what alise thinks of VP8
19:18:57 <alise> AnMaster: I don't know. 2003 or something.
19:19:04 <fizzie> "libao" as in "audio output"; it's meant for cross-platform audio output; writes to files (in various formats) as well as platform-dependant audio-hardware things.
19:19:14 <alise> Sgeo: It's still not as good as H.264, and never will be.
19:19:29 <alise> AnMaster: It is when the codec it's based on
19:19:42 <alise> hmm how old is VP3
19:19:47 <AnMaster> sigh, why do I feel so old suddenly -_-
19:19:47 <alise> VP3.1 was introduced in May 2000 followed three months later by the VP3.2 release,[11][12] which is the basis for Theora.
19:19:54 <alise> It's old for /this stuff/.
19:20:04 <alise> Dammit, I don't have a warped perception of time, I just have a context-dependent one.
19:20:07 <alise> In 2000, video encoding SUCKED.
19:20:27 <alise> And it's hard to make a format from then not suck.
19:20:34 <alise> AnMaster: Don't remember, but have seen since many times.
19:20:37 <alise> (Since it's been obsolete.)
19:21:11 <AnMaster> alise, wait, what about qt in around 2001 or so?
19:21:15 <fizzie> alise: Hey, now... already in 1998 we had "DivX ;-) 3.11 Alpha".
19:21:21 <alise> QuickTime I dealt with when it was horrible, horrible on Windows.
19:21:23 <alise> (Still is, but, you know.)
19:21:35 <fizzie> AnMaster: The smilie is part of the name, yes.
19:21:51 <alise> DivX ;-) (not DivX) 3.11 Alpha and later 3.xx versions refers to a hacked version of the Microsoft MPEG-4 Version 3 video codec (not to be mistaken with MPEG-4 Part 3) from Windows Media Tools 4 codecs.[4][5] The video codec, which was actually not MPEG-4 compliant, was extracted around 1998 by French hacker Jerome Rota (also known as Gej) at Montpellier. The Microsoft codec originally required that the compressed output be put in an ASF file. It was alter
19:21:51 <alise> ed to allow other containers such as Audio Video Interleave (AVI).[6] Rota hacked the Microsoft codec because newer versions of the Windows Media Player wouldn't play his video portfolio and résumé that were encoded with it. Instead of re-encoding his portfolio, Rota and German hacker Max Morice decided to reverse engineer the codec, which "took about a week".[7]
19:22:02 <AnMaster> alise, I never dealt with qt on windows back then
19:22:08 <AnMaster> alise, did deal with it on mac
19:22:16 <alise> The "DivX" brand is distinct from "DIVX" (Digital Video Express), an unrelated attempt by the now defunct U.S. retailer Circuit City to develop a video rental system requiring special discs and players.[1] The winking emoticon in the early "DivX ;-)" codec name was a tongue-in-cheek reference to the failed DIVX system. The DivX company then adopted the name of the popular DivX ;-) codec (which was not created by them), dropped the smiley and released DivX
19:22:16 <alise> 4.0, which was actually the first DivX version. (Note that DivX ;-) and DivX are separate products and are created by different people; the former is not an older version of the latter). The DivX name is its trademark.[2][3] It is pronounced DIV-ex.
19:22:22 <AnMaster> alise, I mean, myst for mac uses qt for the embedded animations and such
19:22:27 <alise> fizzie: So note that DivX as you know it is NOT affiliated with, or based on, the old DivX ;-).
19:22:30 <alise> They just stole the name.
19:22:56 <alise> I never had the attention span for Myst. Gimme Monkey Island.
19:23:06 <alise> So, ffmpeg + libao seems to be a way better solution than Xine and GStreamer.
19:23:09 <alise> Why doesn't everything use it?
19:23:37 <AnMaster> alise, I never played monkey island
19:23:42 <alise> I wonder if I am not getting old myself; my Emacs font is really big.
19:23:44 <fizzie> alise: Not based on, but I remember videos from the time of the smiley. They're all "sort-of MPEG-4 except not" anyway.
19:23:49 <AnMaster> oh and does it surprise you that I had the required attention span?
19:23:58 <AnMaster> alise, to solve it without walkthroughs
19:24:00 <alise> Since you've said you have severe ADHD.
19:24:11 <alise> I thought you did.
19:24:28 <alise> Oh. I thought you said bad ADHD becoming light ADHD w/ Ritalin.
19:24:50 <AnMaster> no, also I said it in /msg under condition of keeping it there iirc.
19:25:05 <alise> Sorry; I didn't remember.
19:25:13 <alise> Telling me things is usually a bad idea. :P
19:25:39 <fizzie> Myst was nice; I got it as a birthday present when the Windows port was new, or at least new-ish.
19:25:49 <AnMaster> looked a lot better back then than it does when replayed today
19:26:10 <AnMaster> I mean, you didn't noticed the dithering very much on an old performa (built in) CRT
19:26:22 <AnMaster> it was how everything looked on displays after all
19:26:36 <AnMaster> and CRT doesn't give a crystal clear picture like TFTs do
19:27:46 <fizzie> I think I saw "Myst: Masterpiece Edition" somewhere in a bin; I'm a bit sorry that I didn't get it, but since I already had the original... (it has the graphics re-rendered as 24-bit bitmaps, as opposed to the 256-color palette+dithering ones; and also some works-better-in-newer-Windowses stuff).
19:28:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah, I run it in sheepshaver nowdays
19:28:28 <fizzie> Wait, what? I actually *did* buy it? At least there's one of those tall-DVD-case-thingies in the shelf with "MYST: masterpiece edition" printed on it.
19:28:50 <alise> Still needs a better name.
19:28:56 <fizzie> "Every graphic element has been upgraded to brilliant 24-bit color".
19:29:14 <fizzie> AnMaster: I... don't remember. I remember re-playing Myst not long ago, but I thought it was the old one, not this new one.
19:29:19 <AnMaster> alise, um. this sounds familiar. but no I can't locate wtf belial is
19:29:38 <alise> AnMaster: my vapourware music daemon
19:29:42 <AnMaster> fizzie, time to replay yet again?
19:29:47 <alise> Vapourware no more! Not another day I have to sleep at the unit: so I have time!
19:29:50 <zzo38> What I should do is combine features of ImageMagick and SoX in one program called "Image Exchange" and -density sets the sample rate. And to play a audio file backwards and with echo you can type in: imx file1.wav -flop +echo play:
19:29:52 <fizzie> Also: "Larger and higher quality movies and animations"; after all, the book-entering animation clips in original Myst were something like 160x120 pixels.
19:30:03 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh btw for that image, if you can't correct white balance, it might be worth a try to just do vignetting
19:30:40 <AnMaster> fizzie, and perhaps try without exposure correction. It could be what is messing up the sky. Well I don't know how it is messed up so hard to tell..
19:30:54 <fizzie> And: "Proprietary DigitalGuide™ help system assists players of every skill level"
19:31:33 <fizzie> There's some sort of built-in walkthrough, I guess.
19:31:34 <AnMaster> if you need a walkthrough... use google to find something at ign or whatever
19:31:45 <AnMaster> built in ones is just... cheating
19:32:06 <alise> I remember UHS. Anyone remember UHS?
19:32:13 <alise> Universal Hint System.
19:32:18 <fizzie> alise: I wrote a perl script to convert UHS files to a XML format.
19:32:21 <alise> You'd ask it a question about a game by clicking on it, and it'd give you a vague hint.
19:32:24 <alise> Click again, more specific.
19:32:30 <alise> After -- I think on the fifth hint -- it told you outright.
19:32:42 <alise> The program plus a few hint files for games could fit on one floppy.
19:32:43 <AnMaster> alise, was this in the game or a separate product?
19:32:58 <alise> Seems it still exists.
19:33:00 <alise> http://www.uhs-hints.com/
19:33:14 <AnMaster> but vague hint for an entire game... that doesn't work for most games
19:33:21 <alise> For one specific puzzle.
19:33:36 <alise> Inside the game it would have a bunch of little problems you might encounter, then you could just click to get more and more specific hints.
19:33:45 <alise> Probably the most... tasteful hint system existing, with the discretion and all.
19:34:08 <fizzie> Hm, there's uhs2xml.pl, xml2html.pl and showxml.pl here.
19:34:08 <AnMaster> I can think of lots of games where this fails. works mostly for RPGs, adventure and similar.
19:34:19 <AnMaster> I guess that is where it is most needed
19:34:50 <zzo38> In addition to audio, imx also needs a block-JPEG to perform lossless transformations on JPEG file by keeping the blocks compressed
19:35:10 <zzo38> alise: I have also written a hint system called IFHINT
19:35:30 <alise> AnMaster: Where would it fail?
19:35:31 <zzo38> (I do not know how it compares with UHS)
19:35:38 <AnMaster> alise, it doesn't work well for very open ended adventure or rpg games where you have absolutely no clue what to do next. Granted, they are much more rare than mostly railroaded games, but still. they exist.
19:35:55 <AnMaster> alise, well open ended strategy games
19:36:00 <AnMaster> pretty useless for that I guess
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19:36:17 <alise> <AnMaster> alise, it doesn't work well for very open ended adventure or rpg games where you have absolutely no clue what to do next. Granted, they are much more rare than mostly railroaded games, but still. they exist.
19:36:32 <alise> "I have completed the Seven Trials, killed Morgggot, and retrieved the chicken. What do I do now?"
19:36:33 <fizzie> Writing UHS files needs some care in the question-titling business; if they're too explicit, you can deduce too much; if too vague, they'll be difficult to find.
19:36:45 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yay!
19:37:18 <AnMaster> alise, I was thinking about the kind of game where you could side with either side of a conflict for completely different gameplay, and possibly change in the middle
19:37:42 <AnMaster> or even do the "your own side, fight both" style.
19:37:53 <alise> AnMaster: There'd be a (One Side) and (Other Side) superheading, then.
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19:38:38 <fizzie> Right; there's an arbitrary tree of questions/subquestions, and then each hint has an arbitrary list of answers, revealed one by one.
19:39:09 <AnMaster> tree? needs to be arbitrary graph for the kind of game I'm thinking about
19:39:34 <fizzie> No, it doesn't: you don't have to traverse the tree in order.
19:39:44 <fizzie> It just needs to be browseable so that you find what you're looking for.
19:40:03 <fizzie> There's a human reading it, after all.
19:40:19 <Gregor> Conifer? I 'ardly knew 'er!
19:40:58 <AnMaster> the kind of game I'm thinking about is _exceedingly_ rare, but exists. Most examples that come to mind are user created modules or such to open ended RPG game engines. Major companies seems to hate truly open ended RPGs. Probably because it is a lot more work.
19:41:43 <fizzie> That being said, the format probably does work best for regular linear-ish (or at least fixed-content do-it-in-the-order-you-like) adventure games.
19:41:44 <alise> And because players end up feeling lost.
19:42:37 <Gregor> Arguably, almost all MMORPGs fit that, they're just also "MMO"
19:43:04 <AnMaster> alise, I actually love the freedom of this kind of open ended gameplay. Especially if the game has D&D style alignment. If you play chaotic neutral in a rail roaded RPG you never really get the chance for being truly CN.
19:43:29 <AnMaster> less of a problem for lawful of course.
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19:43:37 <fizzie> AnMaster: Incidentally, Myst's DS port added a whole new age (Rime) to the plot. (I don't remember how it tied in to the Myst plot; ISTR it wasn't just "one more red/blue page to find" thing.)
19:44:39 <fizzie> In other ways it was a pretty sucky port; bugs and such.
19:44:52 <fizzie> But you could write (with the stylus) in a notebook, that was a nice touch.
19:44:59 <fizzie> (Unfortunately the notebook only had one page.)
19:45:20 <fizzie> It's a pretty resource-limited system, and bitmaps take a lot of space.
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19:45:55 <fizzie> From a review: "The Nintendo DS has the game at its worst: a poorly compressed, sometimes glitchy, game that relies entirely on visuals that are too hard to see for progression."
19:46:03 <fizzie> (The reviewer is a Myst-hater, though.)
19:46:41 <fizzie> Oh, lots of people hate it.
19:47:05 <alise> It's very, very dull.
19:47:10 <alise> And the puzzles are on the ... inexplicable side.
19:47:13 <alise> When there /are/ any puzzles.
19:47:24 <AnMaster> there are puzzles everywhere in myst!
19:47:30 <alise> When you're not walking.
19:47:47 <fizzie> People do find it boring, yes.
19:48:33 <AnMaster> well, I hate the FPS genre due to being too fast... so I guess there is a pattern here...
19:48:56 <fizzie> And there's the "zip mode" (at least in the Windows port) to ease a bit on the clickery needed in walking, if you're already been somewhere and want to revisit it.
19:49:08 <AnMaster> fizzie, that's in the mac one too
19:50:22 <AnMaster> myst on mac at least was developed in hypercard I think...
19:50:39 <AnMaster> not sure if that applies to the windows port
19:52:29 <fizzie> One problem in the DS port is that since there's no cursor, poking at random points might activate interactive things, but they might as well cause you to move somewhere; you'd know from the cursor shape.
19:53:04 <fizzie> And since they shrunk everything to the DS's 256x192 pixel resolution, some of the things you need to poke with a stick are pretty tiny.
19:53:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, doesn't it have two screens?
19:53:38 <fizzie> Only one of them is a touchscreen.
19:54:03 <alise> It's not a touchscreen, really.
19:54:06 <alise> More a stylusscreen.
19:54:13 <fizzie> Okay, but pokeable anyway.
19:54:15 <fizzie> Often there's main graphics in the upper screen, and then some sort of UI in the bottom.
19:54:42 <fizzie> "Pokescreen." Or is that too pokemon? (Or too porn?)
19:54:54 <AnMaster> I don't get how it could be porn...
19:55:06 <AnMaster> but yeah too pokemon definitely
19:55:12 <fizzie> It's a Finnish colloquialism for porn; it probably doesn't translate.
19:55:26 <alise> What, pokes? Or pokescreen?
19:55:43 <fizzie> Just "poke". Not too common, but recognizable anyway.
19:57:04 <fizzie> The FF3 port, IIRC, puts the 3D view on top, and a map on the styluscreen; you can poke at the corners of the screen to move in that direction. The equip/item/etc. menu opens over the map, as do the battle menus (and other battle stats).
19:58:22 <fizzie> Of Myst DS: "Even if you wanted to simply enjoy Myst's scenery, the grainy compression has shattered the beauty of the artistic design. What you see is a sad, freckled shell of the original game. The audio from the original game fares only slightly better: Hissing, scratching, and popping have turned CD-quality sound effects, dialogue, and gorgeous, ethereal music into a ham-radio affair."
19:59:04 <alise> The DS' audio is awful.
19:59:32 <AnMaster> myst is best enjoyed with a peforma cd drive for the seeking noise. It had a very peculiar seeking noise. Not heard on modern computers
19:59:44 <AnMaster> but I very strongly associates myst with that sound
19:59:45 <fizzie> Here's a screenshot: http://image.gamespotcdn.net/gamespot/images/2008/133/939943_20080513_screen003.jpg -- that's the full-size image, 256 pixels wide; just zoom it in the browser to approximate how you'd probably hold the DS closer than the monitor.
20:00:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, a map? that's ruining point of the whole thing
20:00:22 <fizzie> It's a static map, though; it doesn't tell you where you are.
20:00:33 <alise> AnMaster: Inventory, presumably. Maybe?
20:00:44 <fizzie> You can only carry one thing in Myst. :p
20:00:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, on that specific world part of the challenge was figuring out the other islands played any sort of part in the story
20:00:54 <fizzie> The third one is the scribble-notepad.
20:01:14 <fizzie> AnMaster: Nhm, well, I guess. They were pretty visible from the screens, though.
20:01:26 <fizzie> AnMaster: And the map doesn't show how you've rotated the bridge, so it doesn't help in that.
20:01:36 <AnMaster> yes, but there is scenery which is just scenery in many places
20:02:32 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Myst_opening.png http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Realmyst_screen.png
20:02:39 <AnMaster> ugh at the latter. Sure some stuff is better
20:02:54 <AnMaster> but why couldn't they keep the parts of better detail in the original
20:02:56 <fizzie> The first one is a zoom thing, with which you can zoom what's shown in the bottom screen for easier viewing, but it just stretches the bitmap, there's no higher-resolution version stored anywhere.
20:02:59 <alise> So does Myst run in ScummVM or anything?
20:03:15 <AnMaster> look at the part of the boat, some rigging or something sticking out
20:03:24 <AnMaster> where the bumps are real bumps in the original
20:03:25 <alise> Julian Assange should get out of the country, quickly.
20:03:29 <AnMaster> and in the new one... just texture
20:03:41 <olsner> myst was probably made in shockwave or something like that
20:04:30 <alise> AnMaster: The Pentagon are out to get him.
20:04:46 <AnMaster> but yeah, should go to iceland
20:05:16 <alise> http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-06-10/wikileaks-founder-julian-assange-hunted-by-pentagon-over-massive-leakhttp://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-06-10/wikileaks-founder-julian-assange-hunted-by-pentagon-over-massive-leak -- ok, ok, don't trust everything you read online, but i don't think The Daily Beast is known to be terribly inaccurate
20:05:39 <alise> Uh, repeated link.
20:05:39 <alise> http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-06-10/wikileaks-founder-julian-assange-hunted-by-pentagon-over-massive-leak
20:05:48 <AnMaster> alise, ah, I thought it was a bit on the long side
20:05:48 <fizzie> AnMaster: RealMyst had to run in real-time on whatever hardware there was in 2000, so they probably didn't have the polygons to spare to get all the details from the originals -- which were offline-rendered -- in.
20:05:49 <alise> [[“We’d like to know where he is; we’d like his cooperation in this,” one U.S. official said of Assange.]]
20:05:58 <alise> Of course when he gets to court he's fucked. No chance of a nice ruling there.
20:06:53 <AnMaster> I don't think killing off Assange would stop any such leak. They most likely have the files spread and back up people to publish it
20:07:14 <fizzie> AnMaster: "While the new interactivity of the game was praised, realMyst ran extremely slowly on most computers of the time." Heh, maybe they also didn't try very hard.
20:07:28 <alise> realMyst: Interactive 3D Edition was a remake of Myst released in November 2000 for Windows PCs, and in January 2002 for Mac. Unlike Myst and the Masterpiece Edition, realMyst featured free-roaming, real-time 3D graphics instead of pre-rendered stills.[50] Weather effects like thunderstorms, sunsets, and sunrises were added to the Ages, and minor additions were made to keep the game in sync with the story of the Myst novels and sequels. The game also adde
20:07:28 <alise> d a new Age called Rime, which is featured in an extended ending.
20:07:33 <alise> So realMyst added Rime, not the DS version.
20:07:43 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm. That grassy area on the side is nicer in realmyst IMO
20:07:46 <fizzie> Yes, it's the same Rime.
20:08:14 <fizzie> I'd like to know how the iPhone version is.
20:08:32 * alise downloads insurance.aes256, 1.4 GB.
20:08:35 <fizzie> "Williams, Bryn (2009-05-04). "Massive Myst Clogs Up iPhone". GameSpy. http://www.gamespy.com/articles/979/979141p1.html. Retrieved 2009-05-04." Sounds good.
20:09:05 <fizzie> A 700+-megabyte download is apparently considered "big" for an iPhone app.
20:09:12 <alise> fizzie: Of course it is XD
20:09:17 <alise> You download that over WiFi.
20:09:33 <fizzie> You also need 1.5 gigs free during the installation; a copy is involved. Heh-eh.
20:09:53 <AnMaster> alise, "Assange appeared via Skype from Australia instead, saying lawyers recommended he not return to the United States.", if that is true I doubt he is in US
20:10:21 <fizzie> There's "quick access to hint guide" in the iMyst (no, they're not calling it that) too.
20:11:25 <fizzie> (And it seems they've shrunk it down, the current iOS 4 compatible version is only 533 MB. I might even invest the $5 if I had an iDevice.)
20:11:27 <AnMaster> from what I can tell it is before the afghan war diary stuff
20:12:20 <alise> AnMaster: Well, it can only inflame.
20:12:39 <alise> Anyway, I presume this insurance file is all the /rest/ of the documents the White House have begged him not to release about this stuff, encrypted with AES-256.
20:12:53 <alise> Presumably, he will post the key if he feels threatened by the govt.
20:13:01 <alise> Length: 309809152 (295M) [application/octet-stream]
20:13:05 <alise> You said >1GB, Wikileaks.
20:14:10 <alise> http://wikileaks.org/wiki/Afghan_War_Diary,_2004-2010
20:14:15 <alise> The silently added insurance.aes256.
20:15:14 <alise> The SHA-1 is wrong.
20:15:16 <alise> Why is it truncated.
20:15:43 <alise> Firefox is doing it alright.
20:16:27 <AnMaster> alise, considering how slow the download page was to load, I very much suspect that overloaded server might be the cause.
20:17:45 <Sgeo> WHY DID I HAVE TO MAKE THIS SO CRASHPROOF
20:18:10 <AnMaster> that deserves some explanation
20:18:13 <Sgeo> I have the code that starts the thing in a try, some stuff in a catch, and the whole thing in a while(true)
20:18:18 <Sgeo> I now want to kill it
20:18:25 <Sgeo> So I could run it on a different host
20:18:43 <Sgeo> AnMaster, it's not running on a computer I have access to
20:18:50 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0e/Memling_Vanity_and_Salvation.jpg (NSFW, WTF)
20:19:15 <Sgeo> The self-restarts in a sense on exceptions aren't perfect, due to poor code design
20:19:16 <AnMaster> alise, seen that before. Hisotorical context.
20:19:24 <AnMaster> check image page for "used in"
20:19:27 <alise> "This triptych contrasts earthly beauty and luxury with the prospect of death and hell."
20:19:30 <alise> It's still pretty WTF.
20:19:57 <alise> Meanwhile, someone has snipped out just the bit with nakedness: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c9/Hans_Memling_Vanit%C3%A9_ca_1490.jpg XD
20:22:22 <AnMaster> alise, google news search on wikileaks insurance aes256: "all 477 news articles »"
20:22:28 <AnMaster> that's quite a bit of coverage
20:22:40 <alise> mostly just wikileaks, I bet
20:24:31 * Sgeo vaguely wonders why Wikileaks didn't manually look for informant's names and only release documents known for certain not to contain them?
20:25:47 <alise> Did they release any with informant's names?
20:26:06 <AnMaster> alise, you know, no one could tell if it was just random data to scare with
20:26:36 <AnMaster> alise, yes iirc it turned out they did so
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20:58:22 <alise> AnMaster: what kernel do i select in ubuntu 7.04 install?
20:58:28 <alise> linux-generic froze the install last time i tried
20:58:32 <alise> do I choose the specific name?
20:58:37 <alise> sorry, *linux-kernel I think. maybe not
21:01:01 <AnMaster> alise, it froze for me for about 20 minutes with jfs and about 10 with ext3
21:01:04 <zzo38> What are commands in TeX to calculate the minimum width of a paragraph (with no hyphenation)?
21:01:10 <alise> AnMaster: O_O what?!
21:01:12 <alise> why would it freeze that much
21:01:24 <alise> Any way to rectify it?
21:01:29 <AnMaster> alise, logs showed the vm was trying to catch up time drift
21:01:41 <alise> Also, ext3 is what it does when you just let it go with the whole disk, right?
21:01:46 <alise> AnMaster: Huh. So it eventually resolved?
21:01:59 <AnMaster> alise, well with ext3 it did. It did take an awful lot of time though
21:02:04 <AnMaster> with jfs I gave up after 20 minutes
21:02:27 <AnMaster> alise, I used noatime mount option on ext3, no idea if that was signficiant or not
21:02:35 <AnMaster> anyway linux-generic just maps to one of the other ones
21:02:50 <zzo38> Do you know about commands in TeX?
21:03:30 <AnMaster> zzo38, clarify that question please What exactly do you mean
21:03:52 <AnMaster> or is "commands" some package?
21:04:00 <alise> AnMaster: pure TeX.
21:04:18 <alise> <AnMaster> alise, I used noatime mount option on ext3, no idea if that was signficiant or not <-- is this likely to speed it up?
21:04:59 <AnMaster> alise, I mean, theoretically it should perhaps, no need to update atime field
21:05:12 <alise> Yeah, but I mean, the huge lag.
21:05:15 <alise> Could that be related?
21:05:26 <zzo38> AnMaster: I mean Plain TeX. I want to calculate the minimum possible width of a box that a paragraph will fit into with no hyphenation or overfull boxes.
21:05:29 <alise> Because it's time drift instead.
21:05:29 <AnMaster> alise, and since iirc noatime is not default and you hit that lag too. That is assuming you did defaults
21:05:47 <zzo38> And no overlapping text.
21:05:47 <AnMaster> alise, I'm not sure if the time drift is actually causing the slow down or just side effect
21:06:15 <AnMaster> alise, it might very well be caused by the VM hogging it's CPU to 100% in debconf during that time
21:06:21 <AnMaster> alise, it turns out top installed before kernel
21:06:29 <AnMaster> so I could chroot into the install and run top
21:06:57 <AnMaster> alise, just go to alt-f2, oh and it reports current status on alt-f4 or such
21:07:00 <alise> Oh, so it's responsive?
21:07:05 <alise> Which kernel did you pick?
21:07:26 <AnMaster> alise, but it doesn't matter really since they are just generic aliases of each other
21:07:28 <zzo38> Here is the command to use if you want to test if a GNU/Linux system is running too slow: time seq 1 1000000
21:07:35 <AnMaster> alise, blame expert install for showing the option at all probably
21:08:01 <AnMaster> alise, need it for the shadow option however
21:08:01 <alise> zzo38: For one, that's IO-bound. Heavily. You want >/dev/null.
21:08:05 <alise> For two, there are many implementations of seq.
21:08:12 <AnMaster> alise, modifying that after the fact turned out to be quite a mess.
21:08:37 <zzo38> alise: That is meaning in case you want to count multiple things at once including I/O and things.
21:09:08 <alise> AnMaster: Incidentally, using QEMU to emulate an x86-64 machine is a bitch.
21:09:24 <alise> AnMaster: This is because although I have a 64-bit processor, it does not support virtualisation, so VirtualBox can't do 64-bit on it.
21:09:30 <alise> Well, it isn't /that/ slow
21:09:35 <alise> But still, you know, could be a bit faster.
21:09:57 <AnMaster> alise, anyway, as far as I can tell it stalls (or seems to?) in generating the initrd or possibly depmod. This is based on output on alt-f4
21:10:30 <AnMaster> alise, I don't know if you drink coffee, but this is the kind of place where guides would suggest you go make a cup of it to pass the time :P
21:10:40 <alise> Usually it suggests tea.
21:10:43 <alise> Well, in the good manuals.
21:10:52 <zzo38> The command "time seq 1 1000000" doesn't test everything and also won't do only one thing for testing, but it is good as a simple way to test multiple things at once
21:10:54 <AnMaster> hm that "trope" of manuals seems mostly gone nowdays
21:11:07 <AnMaster> alise, I can't remember it being tea in any case I read about
21:11:09 <alise> There doesn't seem to be a coffee machine in the kitchen and I'm not about to drink instant coffee, so I don't drink coffee much. That's probably a good thing.
21:11:20 <alise> AnMaster: I've never seen coffee. Maybe I read better manuals than you. :P
21:11:46 <AnMaster> alise, or British manuals rather than American ones. That could be a significant factor
21:11:57 <alise> I don't use much British software, as far as I know.
21:12:12 <AnMaster> Swedish ones would probably suggest coffee. It is by far more common than tea here
21:12:20 <alise> Or maybe localised manuals. Who knows. I don't think they'd localise that; only open-sourcey and other thrifty projects have it, and those don't tend to get localised across dialects of English.
21:12:25 <alise> Ah, well, yes, I'm talking English ere.
21:12:42 <AnMaster> alise, well I'm not sure which language I read it in
21:12:48 <AnMaster> probably both English and Swedish
21:14:45 <AnMaster> alise, wait, that 10 minutes was for virtualbox with hardware virt
21:14:56 <AnMaster> qemu is in my experience slower...
21:15:25 <AnMaster> without kvm... you might have to wait a bit more than 10 minutes
21:16:00 <alise> Does KVM work if your processor doesn't do that virtualisin' thang?
21:16:23 <AnMaster> alise, indeed. Also how fast cpu?
21:16:53 <alise> 1.33 GHz or something; ultra low voltage. But don't be fooled; it runs a ton of Firefox and other windows very snappily and quickly on bloated old Ubuntu.
21:16:56 <AnMaster> like... lots of small muffled explosions after each other
21:17:00 <alise> So it's no slowpoke. It /is/ Core 2 Duo, after all.
21:17:15 <AnMaster> like 5-10 / second, went on for maybe 4 or 5 seconds
21:17:34 <AnMaster> alise, my cpu is Core 2 Duo @ 2.26 GHz btw
21:18:09 <AnMaster> alise, looking at top and virtualbox's harddrive icon it seemed that whatever thing it stalled at was CPU bound, not IO bound
21:18:28 <alise> Oh well. I can wait for indefinite amounts of time as long as I know it's not frozen.
21:18:36 <alise> It froze at 8x% -- is this your experience too?
21:18:51 <AnMaster> it was when installing kernel I know
21:19:13 <AnMaster> but yes it froze a short while at 8x% I think, and then the 10 minute freeze at 92% or such
21:19:19 <AnMaster> the first one was like about a minute or so
21:19:22 <alise> Ah. It froze for a few minutes at 8x% for me.
21:19:37 <AnMaster> alise, slower cpu, no hw virt. What can you expect?
21:19:40 <zzo38> How can you calculate the shortest width of hbox that a paragraph will fit into with no overfills, hyphenation, or overlapped text?
21:19:46 <AnMaster> alise, don't you have one with hw virt?
21:20:33 <AnMaster> alise, anyway I'm really curious as to what debconf was doing, since it was it that was using 99% CPU during the second stall at least
21:20:33 <alise> Yes; an AMD box and an iMac.
21:20:38 <alise> But, you know, I like this little box. It's dinky!
21:20:43 <alise> That's the actual hostname.
21:20:50 <AnMaster> alise, what was the screen res?
21:21:02 <alise> 1366x768; which, on a 13" screen, gives it a lovely dpi.
21:21:08 <alise> Enough to have a few windows on the same screen.
21:21:42 <AnMaster> alise, opengenera uses a 800x600 window (do not resize, I haven't tried, but the snap4 README said that if you do that, BAD things will happen). And a bitmapped font that is kind of hard to read on my thinkpad at times.
21:22:00 <AnMaster> alise, you can save state in vmware, in case you need to continue next weekend I mean
21:22:14 <alise> AnMaster: Indeed, the screen is so high-quality and high-dpi that /slight-hinted RGB subpixel rendering by (patent-patched) freetype/ actually *has no noticeable subpixels*.
21:22:20 <alise> Literally. Even if you lean your head in and strain to see.
21:22:29 <alise> It looks even better than OS X's subpixel rendering.
21:22:32 <AnMaster> alise, yeah yeah, but opengenera can only use bitmapped fonts
21:22:38 <AnMaster> so those will do you no good here
21:22:38 <alise> The actual font rendering isn't up to snuff, of course, but the subpixel...
21:22:41 <alise> AnMaster: 800x600 is fine.
21:22:46 <alise> <AnMaster> alise, you can save state in vmware, in case you need to continue next weekend I mean
21:22:49 <alise> and why would I need to?
21:23:01 <alise> VirtualBox can save state too IIRC.
21:23:15 <alise> No, I meant VirtualBox.
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21:23:32 <AnMaster> I write vmware, and meant virtualbox
21:24:27 <AnMaster> alise, if you show up sleep deprived though... things might start looking bad for you again
21:24:42 <alise> I'm good at hiding it.
21:24:47 <alise> Besides, I look tired on Mondays anyway.
21:24:58 <alise> AnMaster: But no, I'm on the "fast track" to being discharged in September.
21:25:01 <alise> Not to peace of course ...
21:25:02 <AnMaster> okay. I know I personally fail at hiding lack of sleep
21:25:14 <AnMaster> sure I can stay awake, unless at home... but even so
21:25:51 <AnMaster> ais523, did you reach any clarity in that esr/ick/knuth issue?
21:25:54 <alise> Well, I can survive on five hours of sleep and after a bit of yawning I'm okay after noon.
21:25:59 <alise> Then by evening I crash.
21:26:00 <ais523> AnMaster: it's still happening
21:26:17 <AnMaster> ais523, I haven't heard anything except the initial statement
21:26:31 <ais523> just technical details
21:27:19 <ais523> this is INTERCAL, who needs reasons?
21:27:27 <ais523> but we're trying to compile a huge repo of all known C-INTERCAL history
21:27:46 <AnMaster> ais523, like every revision and version?
21:28:00 <ais523> well, it wasn't versioned particularly well in the past
21:28:03 <AnMaster> ais523, don't forget my port to MPW
21:28:05 <ais523> so the older history is a bit flaky
21:28:22 <AnMaster> ais523, probably only I have the foggiest idea how to compile that though
21:28:31 <ais523> if you have more history, like the MPW port, you could reply to the a.kl
21:28:46 <AnMaster> ais523, I only have read only access to a.l.i
21:28:56 <AnMaster> ais523, or usenet at all rather
21:29:01 <fizzie> alise: I'd like to revisit my statements re Myst "it works in Wine"; ScummVM does have a "WIP" version of the Mohawk engine used by Myst/windows (as well as Riven and the Masterpiece Edition redo), and it's even in the SVN repo and does something; presumably not very playable yet, but last commit three weeks ago so it's not quite dead either; http://wiki.scummvm.org/index.php/Myst
21:29:08 <fizzie> (This thing didn't exist, last I looked at it.)
21:29:10 <ais523> anyone can use Google Groups
21:29:13 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway, you got the patch I think? I can link you to it otherwise
21:29:19 <ais523> I don't think I have it
21:29:24 <alise> ais523: AnMaster can't use Google Groups, they'll steal his inner goodness!
21:29:38 <ais523> well, even I'm a bit paranoid about it, to the extent of deleting cookies afterwards
21:29:39 <alise> fizzie: ScummVM is rapidly becoming AnyDamnThingVM!
21:29:51 <ais523> I have Google filtered more tightly than pretty much any other website
21:30:05 <alise> I was recently asked to
21:30:05 <alise> prepare a new INTERCAL release by no less a personage than Donald
21:30:05 <alise> Knuth, who wants to feature an INTERCAL program in his next book.
21:30:05 <AnMaster> ais523, see the files starting at ick on this url http://pubacc.wilcox-tech.com/~anmaster/
21:30:19 <alise> ais523: tell Knuth that he should clearly use /your/ C-INTERCAL >:D
21:30:27 <ais523> alise: hey, it's backwards-compatible
21:30:31 <alise> Knuth cannot stoop so low to use esr software!
21:30:47 <ais523> and the current plan is to merge the ais and esr branches
21:30:48 <AnMaster> ais523, however there is still that issue with ick generating C89 code that MPW doesn't like
21:30:51 <alise> The new release will probably spew neoconservative propaganda on startup. >:)
21:30:53 <alise> ais523: What, forever?
21:30:57 <AnMaster> ais523, something I never got around to trying to work around
21:31:05 <AnMaster> ais523, forgot exactly what it didn't like too
21:31:17 <fizzie> AnMaster: qemu does have VM snapshots, yes.
21:31:40 <AnMaster> ais523, esr made other changes?
21:32:08 <ais523> and none are particularly objectionable or controverisal
21:32:15 <ais523> not nearly as many as I did, anyway
21:32:20 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and another issue... I think I versioned it in bzr, I found darcs a bit annoying at that point.
21:32:44 <AnMaster> ais523, about binaries. Do you know about the two forks classic MacOS used to have?
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21:33:53 <AnMaster> my point is that while I could compile it for you, there is no way I could send it in a format that could be read anywhere except on classic mac OS. Either *.sit.hqx or *.sit.bin or .img.hqx or .img.bin
21:34:04 <AnMaster> created by disc copy for classic mac os
21:34:17 <AnMaster> it isn't an os x disk image however
21:34:26 <ais523> probably the sources are enough
21:34:40 <AnMaster> ais523, hope the patch applies cleanly and such
21:34:46 <AnMaster> probably doesn't against last version
21:35:01 <AnMaster> ais523, and note: the patch is not ASCII or ISO-*
21:35:09 <AnMaster> ais523, it is MacRoman in part, this can not be avoided
21:35:18 <AnMaster> because MPW makefiles makes use of those symbols
21:35:34 <AnMaster> it replaces stuff like : in normal makefiles and such
21:36:11 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and I'm not sure if that might change line ending in some other file. Probably best to be very careful with what you apply to your own ick from that. The fixes for generating paths should work though
21:36:29 <AnMaster> there is a lengthy comment there about why exactly and so on
21:36:41 <ais523> oh, I'd have to be utterly crazy to backport fixes intended to run on MacOS Classic
21:36:43 <AnMaster> and then there were some pepet.c changes since system() won't work
21:37:00 <ais523> clearly the optimal alternative would be to instead patch autoconf to handle that operating system
21:37:02 <AnMaster> ais523, no, I meant if you want to apply to your own branch
21:37:42 <AnMaster> ais523, the fix to generating paths and some of the stuff in perpet.c, plus some fixes to add some extra checks to configure.ac (unless I misremember) should all be fine
21:37:49 <AnMaster> the changes you should be wary about are outside the src dir
21:38:11 <alise> What character replaces : again?
21:38:25 <AnMaster> alise, eh, don't remember and doubt I could copy it anyway
21:38:42 <alise> You could recreate it with Unicode. Was it that S section symbol?
21:38:57 <AnMaster> alise, well let me open the file
21:39:14 <AnMaster> since *nix editor goes spare over this patch
21:40:25 <AnMaster> ais523, that was another issue yeah. macs mangle \r and \n in a way similar to windows. The reverse of it that is
21:40:36 <AnMaster> \r maps to \n and \n maps to \r
21:40:38 <ais523> I know all about classic mac line endings
21:40:46 <AnMaster> ais523, yes but how stdio mangled I meant
21:41:04 <ais523> if anyone asks me why people sometimes use \n and sometimes use code to generate a particular line ending
21:41:21 <ais523> I tell them that it's to work around a bug on classic Mac OS, and as nobody uses that any more they can just use \n safely
21:41:46 <fizzie> AnMaster: Has some sort of conversion happened to http://pubacc.wilcox-tech.com/~anmaster/ick_classic_macppc.diff or is it the web server or what? If I wget/curl it, the file has UTF-8 0xfffd (Unicode "replacement character") in those places you'd expect uncommon characters.
21:41:51 <AnMaster> err, kate doesn't have macroman
21:42:22 <alise> Or crappy webserver.
21:42:35 <AnMaster> alise, doubt it, it servers it as application/octet-stream
21:44:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, ais523, okay, working on fixing up a new diff
21:44:30 <AnMaster> not using hg diff this time, it seems at fault
21:44:54 <ais523> are you going to replace the old one?
21:45:23 <AnMaster> ais523, yes, I'm going to try to diff against exported r1 (clean import) and exported last revision
21:45:39 <AnMaster> if that doesn't work I'll just upload both as tarballs or something
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21:51:17 <fizzie> Based on "iconv -f mac" and Wikipedia's "Mac OS Roman" table, it replaces the : in makefiles with ƒ -- unicode "latin small letter f with hook" -- and backslashes with ∂ -- unicode "partial differential". I remembered they were freaky from some MPW playing back then, but I didn't remember them to be quite *that* freaky, assuming the sources I looked at were correct.
21:52:10 <AnMaster> ais523, how urgent is this? I think it may take a few hours for me to figure out which dir is the current. since the sources on the mac image doesn't perfectly match the last source control version
21:52:41 <AnMaster> ais523, should numerals.c be part of libick.a?
21:52:41 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:53:14 <AnMaster> then this difference makes no sense
21:53:21 -!- nooga has joined.
21:53:47 <oerjan> and it's an august day!
21:54:31 * AnMaster sets mmap limit to 0 and starts sheepshaver
21:59:13 <oerjan> these logs are too long. again.
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21:59:49 <AnMaster> it is starting to make a tiny bit more sense now
22:00:17 <oerjan> AnMaster: that clearly means you are finally going insane
22:00:50 <AnMaster> oerjan, c-intercal port to classic mac os making sense, yes probably
22:01:00 -!- Flonk has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:01:10 -!- Flonk_ has changed nick to Flonk.
22:09:15 <AnMaster> ais523, okay I made sense of the changes to the source. I will actually try to clean this up into several patches. Some of which should be applied to your own branch really since they are somewhat generic in nature
22:12:10 <alise> <fizzie> Based on "iconv -f mac" and Wikipedia's "Mac OS Roman" table, it replaces the : in makefiles with ƒ -- unicode "latin small letter f with hook" -- and backslashes with ∂ -- unicode "partial differential". I remembered they were freaky from some MPW playing back then, but I didn't remember them to be quite *that* freaky, assuming the sources I looked at were correct.
22:12:14 <alise> I think partial differential is backspace
22:12:20 <alise> since \{foo}\ is a var in the shell
22:16:36 <fizzie> It's used as a line-continuation character there, anyway.
22:17:30 <alise> I mean I've seen it literally where I'd expect a backspace, so I confirm your sources are correct.
22:18:26 <fizzie> Well, it's possible to just look at https://gforge.uni.lu/plugins/scmsvn/viewcvs.php/*checkout*/tags/revision-1.0/expat-2.0.1/lib/Makefile.MPW?revision=271&root=hpc-ga-bench&pathrev=272 as an example, and set browser's character encoding to macroman.
22:18:54 <fizzie> I don't know what's up with the "{•foo•}" bits though.
22:19:45 <fizzie> Or the local sed-alike invocation: StreamEdit -d e "/•('XMLPARSEAPI('≈') ')«0,1»'XML_'([A-Za-z0-9_]+)®1'('/ Print 'XML_' ®1" "{HdrDir}expat.h" > {Targ}
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22:39:35 <AnMaster> ais523, see http://pubacc.wilcox-tech.com/~anmaster/ick-mac-patches.tar.gz
22:39:54 <AnMaster> that tarball contains a directory of patches
22:40:05 <AnMaster> should make it easier to apply
22:40:17 <AnMaster> that is against ick-0.-2.0.29.pax.gz as far as I know
22:40:32 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and configure will need to be regenerated afterwards
22:40:44 <AnMaster> ais523, it only includes diff to configure.ac, not to configure itself
22:41:05 <alise> Mac Roman, Macro Man.
22:41:15 <AnMaster> alise, yes I checked the file in the tar ball
22:41:24 <AnMaster> it contains strange stuff that is not 0xfffd
22:41:30 <alise> I wasn't saying anything about you.
22:44:24 <alise> Meanwhile, for no reason, a classic PFSC: http://www.picturesforsadchildren.com/comics/00000028.gif
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22:47:39 <AnMaster> ais523, btw I get why you want to build all historic ick versions. But what has knuth got to do with it?
22:47:59 <ais523> he seems to want a new version
22:48:14 <alise> He wants esr to make a new release, because he is including a C-INTERCAL program in his next book.
22:48:22 <alise> AnMaster: to merge all branches into one
22:48:31 <ais523> and yes, easier to merge branches if you know what they are
22:48:34 <AnMaster> alise, would be lovely, but is improbable
22:48:40 <alise> AnMaster: that's what Knuth wants.
22:48:44 <alise> AnMaster: esr and ais523 are participating. there is nobody else.
22:48:47 <alise> so it is happening
22:48:57 <alise> besides, you can't disappoint knuth
22:49:03 <alise> upsetting knuth is like ... Basically, just kill yourself.
22:49:05 <alise> AnMaster: i doubt TAOCP
22:49:08 <alise> probably some other book.
22:49:17 <alise> Although ... that would be awesome.
22:49:31 <AnMaster> yes but unlikely since it isn't written in MMIX
22:49:34 <alise> "Here we present rinky-dink sort in INTERCAL, a popular programming language."
22:49:53 <alise> "We can contrast the structure with the MMIX version, as they both have very different control structures. However, there are some similarities."
22:50:05 <alise> Knuth's new O(1) sorting algorithm over any list.
22:50:06 <AnMaster> it sounds like it would only be efficient in INTERCAL, whatever it is
22:50:15 <alise> That's why it's important to get a new release.
22:50:25 <ais523> it's rare for INTERCAL to be more efficient than other languages, except in lines of code
22:50:29 <ais523> because it's compiled via other languages
22:50:53 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway, at least one of the patches in that tarball fixes a code gen error that makes generated code sometimes not valid C89
22:51:07 -!- ais523 has left (?).
22:51:26 <AnMaster> <for log reading>: ais523, basically without 04_output_valid_c89.patch you can sometimes get zero length static arrays in the generated output
22:51:33 <alise> He doesn't logread.
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22:53:53 <AnMaster> oh and btw, not all of that can be compiled in sheepshaver. it is too buggy. I remember some file crashing sheepshaver. Had to compile it on my old ibook then copy the object file over
22:54:38 <zzo38> Finally I got the Icoruma->TeX to work. http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/icosahedral/printout/main.dvi
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22:57:06 <zzo38> Now is the time you ar expected to complain about the formatting being no good ...
22:57:48 <AnMaster> pdftex produces better results
22:57:53 <AnMaster> and pdf is nodways an open format
22:58:15 <alise> AnMaster: it won't be better unless he uses lmodern
22:58:21 <alise> and i don't think there's plain tex support for lmodern.
22:58:38 <zzo38> I can make it produce PDF as well, if you want.
22:58:39 <AnMaster> dvi2ps -> dvi2pdf actually produces worse results than pdflatex
22:59:10 <AnMaster> zzo38, my point is, avoid going over dvi
22:59:33 <zzo38> OK I have now both DVI and PDF.
22:59:42 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/icosahedral/printout/main.pdf
22:59:57 <AnMaster> zzo38, with hyperref (latex only? I have no idea) you can get clickable links for the TOC in the pdf and so on
23:00:06 <alise> hyperref is latex only
23:00:13 <alise> like everything else
23:00:23 <AnMaster> zzo38, why are you using plain tex instead of latex?
23:00:29 <alise> he considered latex too complex
23:00:33 <alise> and couldn't get tables working properly.
23:00:45 <alise> don't knock plain tex/dvi too hard though, Knuth still writes everything in it :-D
23:00:51 <zzo38> AnMaster: Because Plain TeX works better, and I understand it.
23:00:55 <alise> although he has impeccable typographical taste
23:01:09 <AnMaster> zzo38, one minor point, on page 9 there is a table, the table is left aligned while the "Table 2-1" caption is centered
23:01:19 <AnMaster> zzo38, would probably look better if both were the same
23:01:28 <AnMaster> I would go for both centered in a float
23:01:29 <alise> both should be centred
23:01:38 <alise> centred, not centered :P
23:01:54 <Sgeo> alise, you're no longer in the ()?
23:02:14 <zzo38> AnMaster,alise: Yes I do believe you. I just haven't completed it yet, but the part that works it now works. I will fix these things
23:02:17 <Sgeo> Sorry, me being silly obfuscating what I mean.
23:02:59 <zzo38> (However, I believe there is a way of doing hyperlinks with Plain TeX, since I have seen CWEB printouts that use it (and CWEB uses Plain TeX)
23:03:18 <zzo38> You might have to use \special or whatever, though
23:03:37 <AnMaster> was worried something was broken at first
23:03:48 <zzo38> Some authors do not like hyphenation
23:04:08 <zzo38> I turned off hyphenation in tables, for one thing, otherwise I would keep getting overfull hboxes
23:04:10 <AnMaster> well, tex is quite good at avoiding it when possible
23:04:37 <AnMaster> zzo38, well in tables it might make sense. Also overful hboxes is not really an issue unless something actually looks wrong in the result
23:04:38 <alise> Sgeo: i'm there - as daypatient, thrice weekly.
23:04:49 <Sgeo> That's better than before, at least
23:04:54 <alise> hyphenation is a Good Thing
23:06:05 <AnMaster> zzo38, quite nice. The only issue I saw was that table not being centred
23:06:17 <zzo38> AnMaster: Yes, and it will be fixed later on.
23:06:18 <AnMaster> and that using pdflatex with lmodern would produce better results
23:06:43 <zzo38> I have both PDF and DVI now. But I am not using LaTeX
23:06:50 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: Bye for now).
23:06:55 <AnMaster> the font manages to be a bit blurry on my monitor
23:10:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, AnMaster, you're good at paging and stuff, right?
23:10:35 <Gregor> I'm good at paging and stuff?
23:11:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, on x86-64 can you page to an address that the machine doesn't support?
23:11:18 <alise> I guess 'cause you're BORING :P
23:11:56 <alise> I want Wooble to be a jerk to me again so I can whack him with the institution bat. >_>
23:15:20 <alise> An Agora player; tends to be an asshole. To everyone.
23:15:53 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: I do think you can use all 48 bits in virtual addresses; 40 bits is just how many physical address bits there are.
23:16:14 <fizzie> Doesn't it pretty much say that? "address sizes : 40 bits physical, 48 bits virtual"
23:16:50 <fizzie> Oh, like that Facebook relationship status.
23:17:02 <oerjan> fizzie: i think alise has been encouraging him
23:17:43 <alise> We don't need 64 ...
23:18:41 <fizzie> Oh, this is some sort of SECRET POR-JECT of you folks. Sounds SUSPICIOUS; expect a visit from the COPS, just in case it has to do with 64-BIT DRUGS.
23:19:27 <fizzie> I hear digital drugs are the latest thing: http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/07/digital-drugs/
23:19:38 <oerjan> fizzie: they're persistent offenders
23:20:16 <fizzie> alise: They're gateway drugs to really dangerous sequences of bits.
23:20:23 <alise> Heh; available on YouTube. Even if they did work that will utterly destroy any actual binaural qualities in it.
23:20:32 <alise> There's a reason binaural things are distributed losslessly.
23:21:53 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:21:54 <oerjan> alise: the article _starts_ talking about MP3s...
23:22:20 <alise> People use MP3 to mean any audio file nowadays.
23:22:42 <alise> I wouldn't put it past Wired, let alone a *blog* on wired.com.
23:23:11 <fizzie> (at least here) use "MP3" to refer to portable media players.
23:23:17 <fizzie> "How many songs do you have on your MP3?"
23:23:28 <fizzie> "My MP3 is the red one: it can store more songs than the silver one."
23:24:31 <fizzie> The same people use "web" to mean "a instant messaging conversation performed with the aid of a webcam". As in, "I was in web with so-and-so, and ..."
23:24:44 <oerjan> alise: the wired articles doesn't really seem to be taking this seriously :D
23:25:38 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: New quit message. Entering 2006 in style.).
23:26:22 <oerjan> language: driving prescriptists mad since the ancient babylonians
23:26:34 <oerjan> *prescriptivists...dammit
23:27:06 * oerjan should have just dropped his own correction and chastised alise for taking the hook
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23:27:22 <alise> oerjan: how ironic
23:28:09 <alise> I never meta very I didn't like.
23:28:36 * oerjan isn't sure what his mouth is doing
23:29:16 <AnMaster> <alise> There's a reason binaural things are distributed losslessly. <-- ?
23:29:34 <alise> Fnord fnord fnord fnord.
23:29:43 <alise> AnMaster: because they require lots of crazy pitches and shit to "work" (if they do work at all)
23:29:55 <alise> psychoacoustic compression is designed for the sound of music and the like, not precision
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23:31:06 <oerjan> sounds like the perfect weapon for those evil-AI-in-a-not-quite-perfect-box things
23:31:14 <fizzie> It's not strange that something you're not supposed to consciously notice is messed by a compression method based on keeping only noticeable features of the sound and throwing away all the rest.
23:32:11 <fizzie> Especially the "joint stereo" stuff would probably horribly break all that fluff. Assuming any of it does anything, that is.
23:36:05 <fizzie> Also: who's responsible if a low-bitrate encoding of a drug-soundclip causes some kid to think he's an orange and peel himself with a knife? The codec author? Ratifier of the corresponding standard? These are important questions.
23:36:58 <fizzie> See the wired link for contect.
23:39:20 <AnMaster> alise, fizzie, after reading the wired link I can only conclude that people from the onion invaded their office
23:46:51 <oerjan> maybe they've been listening to drugs
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00:12:22 <AnMaster> alise, so, did the kernel finish installing yet?
00:16:21 <alise> AnMaster: haven't started yet
00:37:59 <AnMaster> alise, couldn't sleep, due to this idea:
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00:55:24 <alise> AnMaster: crc32 quines exist i think
01:04:28 <alise> Project for the insane: Translate Hamlet to Toki Pona.
01:07:33 <alise> It doesn't even have a word for "green"; you have to use "yelo laso" (yellow blue) or something.
01:08:07 <alise> Toki Ponans express larger numbers additively by using phrases such as tu wan for three, tu tu for four, and so on.[27] This feature was added to make it impractical to communicate large numbers.[6]
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01:14:28 <alise> "four many three" = 4*3
01:14:33 <alise> I have thwarted you, Kisa!
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01:27:35 <alise> Prophesised any cakes recently?
01:29:44 * Sgeo thought Sapir-Worf was discredited?
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01:34:18 <Sgeo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toki_Pona
01:34:33 <alise> yes, it is; but otoh, toki pona utilises something a bit weaker than sapir-whorf
01:34:41 <alise> i.e. "making it linguistically a bitch to say anything complex or bad"
01:34:48 <alise> which is obviously possible
01:36:09 * alise presses alt+f4 on qemu by mistake
01:39:48 <oklopol> <AnMaster> md5 quine <<< if it's any good a hash, it's highly likely that there is a quine, you need 23 ppl for birthday paradox, in the md5 paradox you have 2^128 people and 2^128 days
01:40:08 <oklopol> of course if you meant whether it's possible to *find* one
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01:44:43 <Sgeo> http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/MD5
01:52:57 <oklopol> quoting uncyclopedia isn't much of an argument, how could you trust it when anyone can just put whatever they want in there
01:54:54 * Sgeo blehs at his dad wanting to buy him a Kindle
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01:57:58 <alise> Sgeo: Which you obviously must obey.
01:58:20 <Sgeo> Honestly, one of the main things I want is the ability to use it like blank pen and paper
01:58:37 <Sgeo> I saw a review suggesting that the handwriting stuff is better for short notes than for that sort of thing
01:58:49 <Sgeo> But I guess I'll have to try it in a store [the Sony eReader Touch]
01:59:19 <Sgeo> It would mean I'd be far more mathy, imo
02:02:01 <Sgeo> Last time we had this discussion, I remember commenting that that's expensive, iirc?
02:02:32 <alise> Only outside of US.
02:02:55 <Gregor> It's not exactly cheap in the US either :P
02:03:07 <Sgeo> "Oops! Google Chrome could not find shop.ereaderoutfitters.com
02:04:39 <Sgeo> Does IREX have a handwriting thingy, so I can do math stuff?
02:04:48 <Sgeo> And take notes for class?
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02:06:15 <Sgeo> "Sorry, the page you requested was not found."
02:06:23 <Sgeo> ^^trying to go to the BestBuy link
02:09:14 <alise> IREX does handwriting I think
02:10:39 <Sgeo> I'm having trouble finding it
02:10:50 <Sgeo> Unless you're referring to iLiad
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02:11:29 <Sgeo> Still expensive
02:12:33 <Sgeo> Any reasons not to get a Sony eReader Touch?
02:13:52 <Sgeo> Maybe I'll get a chance to try it in-person
02:14:01 <alise> iLiad is the old irex
02:14:20 <alise> http://www.irexreader.com/
02:16:50 <Gregor> The IREX DR800SG is what I have.
02:17:15 <Sgeo> How much is it?
02:17:51 <Gregor> Idonno, I don't know where you can buy it anymore.
02:17:58 <Gregor> It used to be on bestbuy.com, but it seems it's not any more.
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02:22:16 <Sgeo> Again, is there anything wrong with getting a Sony eReader Touch?
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02:29:02 <augur> hello, alise, my dear
02:29:15 <alise> drop the last two words there :|
02:29:18 <Sgeo> Maybe I should make sure the software installs onto my computer successfully
02:29:38 <alise> Sgeo: it's not linux :D
02:30:21 <Sgeo> Is there a Linux version? Maybe I should use that. My Windows install is rather FUBARed right now
02:30:39 <alise> i mean sony reader isn't
02:31:07 <alise> augur: also the comma.
02:31:16 <alise> if i said last clause you'd just linguistically correct me pedantically
02:31:40 <Gregor> alise: The Sony Reader doesn't run Linux? That sounds unlikely.
02:31:45 <augur> oh, yes, well, there was no clause there, so.
02:31:49 <Gregor> It might be less hackable.
02:32:04 <alise> Gregor: Well, yeah, but it's probably not X11.
02:32:07 <alise> Which is a good bad thing.
02:32:38 <augur> the bane of goodbad's existance
02:33:40 <Gregor> <badgood> GOODBAD! Your watered down brand of evil conflicts with my botched attempts at dogoodery!
02:33:56 <Sgeo> alise, when will you read Fine Structure?
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02:35:24 <augur> Sgeo: what's Fine Structure?
02:35:27 <alise> when the universe all's out of line and -- "Fucking--! What the fuck i-- I'm not even going to ask, where is the prince, is the prince here? What have you done with the prince?" "Sir, I'm sor-" "No. No fucking sorry. I want to know where the prince is." There was silence for minutes. "... follow me." He was lead into a ch-- what is this that I have found to happen? The things are all whats.
02:35:33 <alise> augur: a sci-fi novel by Sam Hughes
02:35:39 <alise> Sgeo: ^ there is your answer
02:36:02 <Sgeo> So, I can feel free to spoil you?
02:36:46 <Gregor> Damn it augur and alise, stop having names that both begin with 'a' and are the same number of characters long >_<
02:40:19 <augur> yes, stuff does >3
02:45:13 * Sgeo needs to fix IE somehow
02:47:01 * Sgeo wonders if installing IE8 then uninstalling IE8 would fix IE6
02:47:26 <Sgeo> But for now, I'll just install IE8
02:48:19 <Sgeo> Bleh, installer said it couldn't uninstall the "current version" of IE8
02:48:27 <Sgeo> So it will install over it a new, unremovable version
02:48:51 <Gregor> ... how about you just USE IE8 ...
02:49:07 <Gregor> Actually, how about you use a real browser, but one step at a time.
02:49:44 <Sgeo> First, there are many applications that rely on IE for one reason or another.
02:49:57 <Sgeo> Second, Windows Activation happens to be one of them.. and it demands IE6
02:50:07 <Sgeo> So when I eventually do a Repair Install...
02:50:38 <Gregor> Activation demands IE6? That's hilariously broken even for MS :P
02:51:08 <Sgeo> I actually thought about attempting to .. do piratey stuff to my otherwise legit XP install to get around it
02:51:12 <Sgeo> Last time I did a Repair Install
02:51:46 <alise> http://abstrusegoose.com/249
02:53:56 <Sgeo> Well, restarting
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03:06:31 <Sgeo> Installing IE8 fixed the problem with there being no default browser
03:06:39 <Sgeo> And it made the default browser Chrome
03:07:11 <Sgeo> [Well, I think Chrome was the default, but installing IE fixed.. the thingy that handles URLs]
03:12:27 * Sgeo needs to find his library card
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03:28:28 <Sgeo> comex, congratulations
03:29:06 <oerjan> `addquote <Gregor> <badgood> GOODBAD! Your watered down brand of evil conflicts with my botched attempts at dogoodery!
03:29:19 <HackEgo> 202|<Gregor> <badgood> GOODBAD! Your watered down brand of evil conflicts with my botched attempts at dogoodery!
03:29:46 <Sgeo> ALthough, uh.. this means that malicious websites could do evil things, right?
03:30:34 <oerjan> and here i thought malicious websites only did _good_ things
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03:32:02 <alise> Sgeo: why congrats to comex?
03:32:19 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/cw6ym/iphone_401_jailbreak_via_safari/
03:32:32 <Sgeo> http://www.jailbreakme.com/faq.html
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03:39:19 <augur> im totally comment spamming this thread
03:39:58 <alise> http://www.engadget.com/2010/08/01/official-iphone-4-jailbreak-hits-from-iphone-dev-team/
03:40:39 <augur> alise: you know anything about theorem proving?
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03:46:56 <alise> http://twitter.com/joshwrobel <-- boohoo
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05:05:58 <Gregor> Dang it, uploading 70MB or so of audio files = slow :P
05:08:21 <Gregor> http://codu.org/music/op13/GRegor-op13-mov2-wipp10.ogg
05:11:21 <Gregor> AnMaster, pikhq (not here), maybe augur, anybody else who might care, ^^^
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05:30:02 <augur> Gregor: will look after BBT
05:54:37 <augur> Gregor: did your algos generate this?
05:55:34 <augur> well thats not impressive
05:55:44 <augur> any skilled human composer can write good piano music
05:56:16 <Gregor> That sentence ... is its own definition :P
05:56:43 <augur> i dont know what that means, but ok :D
05:58:42 <Gregor> A skilled composer is someone who can write good music. Someone who can write good music is a skilled composer. So the only addition is "piano", which is obvious since the piano is a versatile solo instrument that nearly anyone who can play any instrument can play.
05:59:37 <Gregor> Oh, and "human" I suppose, but I am insufficiently skilled at MAGIC to write a skilled computer composer :P
06:00:19 <augur> <sheldon cooper> it was a compliment, take it for what it is. </sheldon cooper>
06:00:32 <Gregor> MUST ANALYZE EVERYTHING
06:01:28 <augur> also, it was a carefully crafted sentence and im glad you appreciated it for that.
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08:38:55 <AnMaster> <Gregor> AnMaster, pikhq (not here), maybe augur, anybody else who might care, ^^^ <-- mmm thanks, will listen in a few hours, just woke up and have to head out
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09:16:21 <fizzie> AnMaster: Heh: http://www.flickr.com/photos/sorenragsdale/3192314056/
09:21:12 <fizzie> Somehow it doesn't look flight-save.
09:22:27 <fizzie> There's two other nice ones in a gallery about the effect: http://www.flickr.com/photos/sorenragsdale/3904937619/ and http://www.flickr.com/photos/meriko/4013673616/
09:39:39 <augur> i would love to do a bullettime fly around of such a thing
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10:08:27 <AnMaster> I'm *so* happy I got RAID 1. Really
10:08:57 <AnMaster> now to figure out which one it is physically
10:30:41 <AnMaster> mdadm monitoring daemon mail from that: http://sprunge.us/YUZe
10:30:46 <AnMaster> strange style it is written in
10:31:09 <AnMaster> I mean, think about it, an auto generated mail have no reason to use P.S. ... really
10:53:13 <fizzie> It's a reasonably common style, though, to make app-generated emails look as if they were written by a person.
10:53:19 <fizzie> qmail does it a lot, IIRC.
10:53:50 <fizzie> It's bounces look like:
10:54:04 <fizzie> Hi. This is the qmail-send program at [host].
10:54:04 <fizzie> I'm afraid I wasn't able to deliver your message to the following addresses.
10:54:04 <fizzie> This is a permanent error; I've given up. Sorry it didn't work out.
10:56:10 <fizzie> One broken disk, no data loss; I presume.
10:58:08 <fizzie> RAID 1 is the mirrored one.
11:02:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, where you just have a few disks with the same data on all of them.
11:06:46 <fizzie> Right. Usually few == 2.
11:08:06 <AnMaster> <fizzie> One broken disk, no data loss; I presume. <-- one broken disk, no need to restore from slow backup
11:08:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, any opinions on if this is drive or mobo? http://sprunge.us/bfPd
11:09:08 <AnMaster> fizzie, I suspect drive since it seems to have vibration issues as well...
11:09:31 <AnMaster> noticed that when using hdparm -y to identify which physical drive it was
11:10:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, I would use few = 3, except my mobo only has two sata connectors
11:10:59 <fizzie> I wouldn't use few == 3, I'm not made of money.
11:11:09 <fizzie> Did you check smartctl's statistics, if applicable?
11:11:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, I checked that, no errors reported. but that drive spun down several more times (it does at each error)
11:11:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, but if you mean vibration stats I don't think it has that
11:12:43 <fizzie> Well, I guess the drive is more likely anyway; if the sata controller has been burninated, you'd probably see errors on all channels. (Of course it's probably *possible* for it to break so that only one port goes, but it's maybe not so likely.)
11:12:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, the disk is quite readable, md data check passes but it does have vibration issues and it does spin down and lock everything up every now and then
11:13:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, it is interesting that there seems to be no place to see that ata1.00 == sda
11:14:40 <AnMaster> I mean, I figured it out from spin down count for smartctl -A and also that when running extended self test, the drive spun down, and when it restarted it had completely forgot about this last self test
11:20:20 <fizzie> ls -l /sys/dev/block | grep sda/ => "8:0 -> ../../devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1f.2/host0/target0:0:0/0:0:0:0/block/sda/" -- the physical path there (target0:0:0) is somewhat likely to correspond to connectors. (Though on my system changing BIOS flips for SATA mode -- legacy IDE, AHCI, silly-RAID -- can rearrange in which order connectors {0, 1, 2, 3} and {4, 5} appear.)
11:21:18 <fizzie> I'm not quite sure where the "ata1.00" name comes from, though. I guess it could be something driver-internal.
11:22:27 <fizzie> Bleh. These two files should be identical, but one has 21639 lines in it while the other has only 16254; that's not quite identical to me.
11:22:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, the other disk is ata2.00 iirc
11:25:11 <fizzie> The other car is a cdr.
11:26:09 <AnMaster> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 0 1 aug 21.48 8:0 -> ../../devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:0f.0/host0/target0:0:0/0:0:0:0/block/sda
11:26:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, where in that did you say ata1.00 was
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11:27:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, and driver is sata_via iirc
11:34:06 <fizzie> I just think that the "ataN" numbering would be in the same order than what's in /sys/bus/scsi/devices, though there might be some differences in 0-/1-based indexing and/or if there's multiple SATA controllers around.
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11:38:42 <AnMaster> fizzie, there is a SATA controller and a PATA controller
11:40:44 <AnMaster> fizzie, btw do you have any idea about this:
11:40:46 <AnMaster> 00:1f.0 ISA bridge: Intel Corporation ICH9M LPC Interface Controller (rev 03)
11:40:51 <AnMaster> that is on a no-legacy thinkpad
11:41:41 <fizzie> There's an ISA bridge almost everywhere; often the temperature sensors/smbus/i2c/whatever are hooked to it.
11:42:09 <fizzie> 00:1f.0 ISA bridge: Intel Corporation 82801JDO (ICH10DO) LPC Interface Controller (rev 02)
11:42:12 <AnMaster> hm sensors does say coretemp-isa-0000
11:42:20 <AnMaster> but I doubt that one is actually ISA
11:42:40 <AnMaster> thinkpad-isa-0000, well I think that is virtualish.
11:43:04 <AnMaster> Gregor, I like your last work so far
11:46:51 <fizzie> I don't know what the "-isa-" part there is trying to say; coretemp uses the rdmsr opcode to read the temperature.
11:51:30 <fizzie> ICH's (a random version) data sheet says: "Low Pin count (LPC) Interface: Allows Connection of Legacy ISA and X-Bus devices such as Super I/O; Supports Two Master/DMA Devices".
11:52:00 <fizzie> I think the actual sensors in at least one of my (otherwise pretty un-legacy) boxes lives in the traditional ISA bus I/O range.
11:53:22 <fizzie> * ISA bus, address 0x295
11:53:22 <fizzie> Chip `Fintek F71862FG Super IO Sensors' (confidence: 9)
11:54:19 <fizzie> (This was from that Atom box.)
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12:37:18 <AnMaster> fizzie, it seems that thinkpad-isa is really provided by ACPI
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12:46:54 <fizzie> Hm, there doesn't seem to be lm-sensors package for the N900, at least in the repo. It does have drivers for the sensors; there's /sys/class/hwmon/hwmon[01] (omap temperature sensor and something in the i2c bus), and I can even read current brightness and such from the files there, but there's no user-space command-line app. (There's some battery-graphing tools that I think monitor sensors too, and a port of http://conky.sourceforge.net/, but that's about it.
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13:10:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Does it count as open-source if you distribute an executable for which there /is/ no source code?
13:12:59 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, what do you mean with no source? lost source? written in machine code directly with a hex editor?
13:13:12 <AnMaster> the former I would say no, the latter probably yes
13:13:30 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, depends on the license too
13:15:08 <fizzie> OSI's definition is: "The source code must be the preferred form in which a programmer would modify the program."
13:15:29 <fizzie> So, uh... I guess it depends on which programmer you ask.
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13:27:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, doesn't it also require that it has a free license?
13:27:09 <AnMaster> such as BSD or GPL or whatever
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13:44:20 <fizzie> AnMaster: Yes, it requires all kinds of things; that was just the part defining "source code".
13:52:48 <derdon> Phantom_Hoover: only for many function calls
13:53:45 <derdon> Phantom_Hoover: no, not necessarily
13:54:04 <derdon> Phantom_Hoover: you can define this typical recursive definition of a factorial
13:54:12 <derdon> Phantom_Hoover: and then compute the factorial of 5
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13:54:41 <derdon> Phantom_Hoover: there are less function calls than with the factorial of 100
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15:20:23 <cpressey> So, cabal (Haskell) and setuptools (Python) are too similar to be explained by coincidence. Who copied who?
15:22:33 <Sgeo> "In an effort to prevent bots from registering and spamming up the forum, you are kindly requested to refrain from registering if you are incapable of feeling love.
15:22:44 <Sgeo> "If this prevents you from registering and you are a human, maybe you should talk to someone about it."
15:23:38 <cpressey> It's like the Turing test except... no, I cannot say.
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15:37:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Random thought: conspiracy to commit a crime is itself a crime isn't it?
15:39:03 <ais523> in most cases, although it's a different crime
15:39:17 <ais523> in the UK, incidentally, conspiracy to defraud is illegal, but fraud itself isn't
15:39:32 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, so is conspiring to conspire to commit a crime a crime?
15:39:53 <ais523> which is a weird glitch on the legal system
15:39:58 <cpressey> Let's all get together and talk about defacing public property sometime
15:40:31 <oerjan> norway is currently having a slight problem with this: conspiring to commit terrorism is criminal, but planning to commit terrorism by yourself isn't (unless you actually go ahead and do it)
15:41:12 <oerjan> they arrested three people who were supposedly terrorists, but they're having trouble proving more than one of them actually knew what was happening :D
15:41:56 <oerjan> which means in principle _all_ of them might go free, even the main guy
15:42:12 <oerjan> (since they never got to actually carry out the plan)
15:58:01 <Gregor> `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> OK, so is conspiring to conspire to commit a crime a crime? <cpressey> Let's all get together and talk about defacing public property sometime
15:58:07 <HackEgo> 203|<Phantom_Hoover> OK, so is conspiring to conspire to commit a crime a crime? <cpressey> Let's all get together and talk about defacing public property sometime
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16:53:27 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Well, it used to be.
16:53:41 <cpressey> I don't do a lot of consulting these day.
16:53:53 <cpressey> It is what it says on the front page now :)
16:55:49 <cpressey> Hey, if someone requires my unique services and is willing to pay me for it, I'm open to discussion. But while I was working for corporations with "non compete" clauses I couldn't do any consulting work.
16:56:19 <olsner> heh, found cpressey's linked-in page :) "Esoteric Programming Language Designer" is an awesome job title btw
16:56:36 <cpressey> Yes. I take LinkedIn VERY seriously, you see...
16:56:38 * oerjan notes that "konsern" in norwegian means a large corporation
16:57:29 <olsner> doesn't english 'concern' also have that meaning?
16:57:34 <cpressey> I think "concern" is usually how "large corporation" is translated from Japanese to English, too.
16:57:55 <cpressey> It's such a general, ambiguous word in English.
16:58:10 <oerjan> c -> k,s according to pronunciation is a regular rule in norwegian spelling
16:59:11 <oerjan> actually it seems to mean a group of companies
16:59:50 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concern_(business) seems to be a german borrowing
17:00:37 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: You tell me! :)
17:00:46 -!- sshc_ has joined.
17:01:22 <Phantom_Hoover> "So, you won't talk? Then implement quicksort in Lazy K!"
17:01:40 <oerjan> that article has some horrible grammar :D
17:02:07 <olsner> if you start posting esolangs on the esolangs reddit you can at least get some reddit karma
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17:07:34 <Sgeo> There's an esolangs reddit?
17:07:49 <olsner> http://www.reddit.com/r/esolangs/
17:08:11 <oerjan> "conglomerate" seems to be a more precise english equivalent. maybe _too_ precise.
17:08:25 * Sgeo was about to ask why eso-std is mentioned, but it's apparently 2 years old
17:08:49 <olsner> there was an initial torrent of activity around the time it started, a couple of years later I made the first comment
17:09:27 <cpressey> oerjan: In English it can be used informally to refer to a single company or other organization
17:10:18 <cpressey> Or, of course, in the very general sense of "nexus of interest", which is kind of how I was applying it.
17:14:24 * oerjan isn't sure if you can say that in norwegian without being closer to either issue ("sak") or worry ("bekymring")
17:16:24 <olsner> I think the same applies to swedish
17:17:03 <oerjan> hm looking at wiktionary interest ("interesse") might also apply
17:17:14 <olsner> oddly enough we have the verb concern (as 'koncernera') in swedish
17:17:39 <oerjan> not in norwegian afaik
17:18:39 <olsner> but it's very seldomly used (would sound very swenglish, although it's very old and actually imported from german rather than english)
17:19:44 <olsner> it has synonyms though - avse, angå, röra
17:19:53 <oerjan> might use berøre ("touch")
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17:50:07 <fizzie> cpressey: Oh, but "concern" would apply to catseye also in the "concern, worry, headache, vexation -- (something or someone that causes anxiety; a source of unhappiness; "New York traffic is a constant concern"; "it's a major worry")" sense pretty well, wouldn't it?
17:50:59 <olsner> oh, wasn't that exactly what someone meant?
17:51:03 <cpressey> Whatever is to be done with all these esolangs?
17:51:20 <olsner> "but cat's eye doesn't do anything now" -> "is that something to be worried about?"
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18:52:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Is there a minimum number of bits required for a Unicode character?
18:53:41 <fizzie> They've promised that all Unicode characters will be in the range from 0 to 0x10ffff, if that's what you mean.
18:54:28 <cpressey> And if that's NOT what you mean, then yes but that's more a question about compression than about Unicode.
18:56:01 <fizzie> Rather large amounts of that range are currently empty, but of course they might fill them later. (Since they did jump from the original 16 bits to 17 planes of that size, I guess it's concievable that they might go all "whoops, we'll need a bit more range after all" again.)
18:56:16 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, um. what encoding?
18:56:34 <AnMaster> unicode is not an encoding after all... utf-8, utf-16, UCS4 and so on are
18:56:41 <cpressey> fizzie: As long as they don't introduce a typesetting equivalent of leap seconds...
18:57:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Presumably there's a specified largest codepoint, which can be represented with a fixed number of bits.
18:57:20 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, well, I guess one but for the first two chars, two bits for the first 4 chars and so on :P
18:57:25 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: It's a finite range, at least at the moment.
18:57:33 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: 0x10ffff, like I said.
18:57:43 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, the moment? They could embiggen it in the future?
18:57:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, why only 0x10ffff ? And not 0xffffff
18:58:02 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: They could replace the contents of the standard with base64-encoded porn in the future, if they want.
18:58:15 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Anyway, they've sort-of promised they won't.
18:58:38 <fizzie> (Expand it, I mean. I don't know if they've made any promises about the porn thing.)
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18:59:30 <fizzie> AnMaster: I don't know why; there's the BMP and then 16 "supplemental planes" of the same size; 17*65536-1 gives 0x10ffff.
19:00:45 <fizzie> It's a bit curious that they defined 16 supplemental planes and not 15; with 15 it'd be a reasonable [0, 0xfffff] range.
19:01:30 <fizzie> 20 bits. One nybble for the plane, 16 for index in it.
19:01:48 <fizzie> Planes 3-13 (in the numbering where BMP is 0, and the rest are 1...16) are unassigned at the moment, so it's mostly empty still.
19:02:24 <AnMaster> I always thought unicode was 32-bit... Now I'm all confused
19:02:49 <lifthrasiir> fizzie: plane 3 is finally being filled with some other anarchic ideographs.
19:02:59 <fizzie> Like you said, it's not an encoding; there's just the range of defined codepoints.
19:03:08 <cpressey> Maybe that's why there's so much empty space in atoms and galaxies -- reserved for future expansion.
19:03:12 <Gregor-P> 11110xxx 10xxxxxx 10xxxxxx 10xxxxxx
19:04:30 <Gregor-P> Although a five-byte non-standard UTF-8 encoding would be pretty obvious: 111110xx 10xxxxxx 10xxxxxx 10xxxxxx 10xxxxxx
19:04:41 <fizzie> And the six-byte, too.
19:04:52 <fizzie> I guess that goes up to the full 32-bit range.
19:05:16 <fizzie> Or maybe not. There's 31 "data" bits in a six-byte sequence.
19:05:52 <fizzie> Wasn't it so that the earlier UTF-8 spec did go up to 6 bytes?
19:06:01 <fizzie> "The original specification allowed for sequences of up to six bytes covering numbers up to 31 bits (the original limit of the Universal Character Set). However, UTF-8 was restricted by RFC 3629 (Note: IETF doesn't define UTF-8, Unicode does) to use only the area covered by the formal Unicode definition, U+0000 to U+10FFFF, in November 2003."
19:06:06 <fizzie> Right, it seems to have been.
19:06:13 <Gregor-P> Seven-byte, with the first byte containing no payload :P
19:06:31 <lifthrasiir> fizzie: 31-bit limit seems to be a original codepoint space of UCS (before it kept synchronized to unicode)
19:06:43 <fizzie> Gregor-P: You could do that, but it'd be even more nonstandard, if that's a concept.
19:09:16 <Gregor-P> Eight-byte UTF-8 would break all the invariants though :(
19:09:43 <Gregor-P> 11111111 10xxxxxx 10xxxxxx 10xxxxxx 10xxxxxx 10xxxxxx 10xxxxxx 10xxxxxx
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19:11:11 <zzo38> Why do I get "! Emergency stop." when entering "\relax" at the METAFONT prompt?
19:12:44 <cpressey> Because Irony is still up to her old tricks, it seems.
19:13:17 <olsner> maybe \panic will reset the emergency brakes
19:13:19 <zzo38> I have tried entering other things too, I get the same error regardless of what command I enter.
19:13:36 <zzo38> I get the same error with "\panic"
19:13:47 <zzo38> Just like anything else I try
19:22:40 <zzo38> That isn't going to work any better (I did try it anyways)
19:24:54 <zzo38> Now I got a whole bunch of stuff but it still stopped
19:25:10 <cpressey> zzo38: OK, so at least that's something
19:25:13 <zzo38> And I got various error messages
19:25:13 <cpressey> I got that from: http://www.tex.ac.uk/cgi-bin/texfaq2html?label=useMF
19:25:44 <zzo38> Including "! Missing `)' has been inserted." and "! Missing `=' has been inserted." and various other things.
19:25:56 <fizzie> Find some sort of metafont example and build on that? It doesn't sound very feasible to just start typing stuff and find things out by trial-and-error, no matter how noble it sounds.
19:26:18 <zzo38> I did find an example, and the example told me to start by typing "\relax".
19:26:39 <cpressey> Bad example! /me whacks example with newspaper
19:26:41 <fizzie> There's a bit on MetaFont in this TeX book -- http://makingtexwork.sourceforge.net/mtw/ch11.html -- but it's mostly about how to run existing programs.
19:26:57 <zzo38> Followed by "a+b-c=0;"
19:27:15 <zzo38> However it stops after "\relax" so I can't get a chance to enter "a+b-c=0;"
19:28:36 <zzo38> O, I must have forgotten to build the base files.
19:28:39 <fizzie> "mf" here does what the example says it should.
19:28:51 <fizzie> (Namely, change the prompt from ** to *.)'
19:30:13 <zzo38> Which directories do I build the base with MiKTeX? Is there some environment variables I need to set?
19:31:46 <zzo38> (With TeX it works to enter "\relax" at the "**" prompt and then any TeX codes can be entered, and it won't be emergency stop until CTRL+C is pushed.)
19:32:04 <cpressey> I get the feelin' yer askin' the wrong channel, pilgrim.
19:32:42 <zzo38> cpressey: I do too but what is the right channel? I can't find it
19:33:20 <cpressey> zzo38: errr... have you tried in #latex ?
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19:34:11 <zzo38> O, I tried #TeX and #metafont
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19:46:43 <cpressey> Now I have an itch to build an excessively convoluted command-line interface.
19:52:21 <olsner> after reading some more about php, I now have an itch to get rid of wordpress
19:52:49 <Gregor-P> olsner: And rewrite it in Perl :P
19:53:00 <cpressey> OH BUT PHP IS BEAUTY INCARNATE
19:53:02 <olsner> definitely not perl, anything except perl
19:53:14 <olsner> probably not python either
19:53:34 <Gregor-P> The real problem is that all languages suck.
19:54:07 <cpressey> Some do suck less than others.
19:54:43 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: it's mostly because it's a language which is easy to write badly in, commonly used by bad programmers, and also badly designed (especially wrt security)
19:54:46 <Gregor-P> PHP's only real problems are that it's like a language from 1985 in terms of features and that its library is an enormous flat namespace.
19:54:58 <cpressey> http://catseye.tc/about/php.html
19:55:29 <Gregor-P> Phantom_Hoover: Yes. Because everyone uses CL.
19:56:58 <Gregor-P> Even C has a better namespace story thanks to separate compilation.
19:57:32 <olsner> oh wow, the PHP while loop... what's sad is that it seems *every* feature of php has been implemented similarly
19:57:37 <cpressey> There is THAT. PHP is an interpreted language that doesn't even have separate compilation, go figure.
19:58:19 <Gregor-P> The problem though is that every other language sucks too :P
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19:58:44 <olsner> none of the perfect languages suck!
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19:59:04 <Gregor-P> IMHO PHP is better for its purpose than Python, but worse for any other purpose, and both are terrible :P
19:59:07 <olsner> neither do any of the non-perfect but still non-sucky ones
20:00:00 <olsner> Gregor-P: you mean it's better than python for php's purpose or better than python is for *its* purpose?
20:00:25 <Gregor-P> olsner: Better thab Python at being PHP :P
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20:01:15 <Gregor-P> cpressey: I DESPERATELY want somebody to write a Hackiki userland in Haskell :P
20:03:09 <cpressey> Gregor-P: yeah yeah. So what would it take for a language to not suck?\
20:03:25 <cpressey> Because I agree, they all do. Even if some more than others.
20:03:46 <cpressey> The soft ones are too soft and the hard ones are too hard.
20:04:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, they suck, ultimately, because you can't go straight from thoughts to code.
20:04:18 <Gregor-P> Plof ain't it, as fun as it is :P
20:04:25 <cpressey> Oh god, maintaining someone else's thoughts would be a nightmare.
20:09:18 <Gregor-P> Oh, is the problem that simple? X-P
20:09:33 <olsner> take all existing good-enough languages, eliminate their suckage, you should end up with perfection
20:12:08 <relet> yup, but it won't compile.
20:15:51 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, what languages do you define as "good enough"?
20:16:17 <olsner> the ones that are good enough, of course
20:17:19 <Gregor-P> Also, they're "good enough" in wildly incompatible ways and for completely different reasons.
20:17:39 <olsner> hmm, ok, of the ones I've tried, probably haskell is the only one that qualifies
20:18:10 <olsner> and C is pretty close due to its simplicity (but is lacking obvious enhancements that would make it good enough)
20:18:26 <Gregor-P> Plof is the king of languages and the language of kings.
20:20:25 <Gregor-P> How about recursiveC: a C-based language in which you can define arbitrary code to be "static", and the output of that static code is code. You could implement e.g. OO as libraries. Compile to fixed-point!
20:20:59 <cpressey> Haskell, Python, Java, and C have a significantly lower rate of making me vomit than PHP, and C++
20:21:19 <cpressey> Not sure about Perl -- it's in between
20:21:42 <olsner> "The core bytecode language is only a few hundred operations" :/ java makes do with just over 100 iirc, and that's with many operations duplicated for ints, longs, doubles, floats and objects
20:22:22 <cpressey> Gregor-P: RecursiveC sounds like an idiomatically Gregoresque language.
20:23:05 <fizzie> Gregor-P: re recursiveC: DOUBLE COMPILE. (reference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WxJECOFg8w and related)
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20:25:13 <olsner> Gregor-P: C++ did that, but instead of overloading yet another meaning of 'static' they introduced a new keyword: 'template'
20:27:47 <cpressey> See, Plof is far far too soft and recursiveC is far far too hard.
20:28:46 <cpressey> I suspect we still (as a species) have yet to learn how to specify programming languages well.
20:29:02 <cpressey> And "still have yet" is redundant.
20:30:11 <olsner> is it redundant? I think there's been a number of projects that tried to fix the "have yet to learn", but it didn't help and we *still* "have yet to learn" it
20:30:34 <cpressey> Hm, ok, maybe not. Awkward, though....
20:31:59 <olsner> same goes for most of the other aspects of making software IMO, "software engineering" = lol
20:37:19 <cpressey> "Better is Worse": your tab completion is so clever, it hangs
20:40:13 <cpressey> Ah, let's not forget, all shells suck, too. And editors.
20:48:30 <Gregor-P> olsner: C++ totally does not fit my definition, you can't generate truly arbitrary C++ from templates
20:50:41 <Gregor-P> olsner: Oh and by the way, Java and Plof's bytecodes are roughly the same size in terms of total number of instructions, though what those instructions do is of course wildly different.
20:51:12 <cpressey> I think it would be nice to have a pragma or such that says "Try to reduce this expression to a constant at compile time". Instead of something as heavy-handed as defining it as a macro.
20:51:26 <Gregor-P> In fact ... come to think of it, I'm not sure where "few hundred" came from ...
20:52:01 <cpressey> (Of course, you couldn't stop such a pragma from hanging on arbitrary code.)
20:52:39 <olsner> java has 204, so a bit more than just 100, but still "a few hundred" is a huge number of op-codes imo :)
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20:54:09 <Gregor-W> The truthiness about the size of PSL: 88 core opcodes, plus 13 for the C foreign function interface (probably less for other potential FFIs)
20:54:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor-P, isn't your suggestion just Lisp's macro system wedged into C
20:54:38 <fizzie> CIL (that .NET thing) has 229 opcodes; it's in the same ballpark as the Java VM.
20:55:00 <cpressey> CIL, aka the C# Virtual Machine.
20:55:27 <Gregor-W> Phantom_Hoover: Kiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinda, but since the "static" code (choose a better keyword) is C, the behavior would be wildly different.
20:55:43 <Gregor-W> And declaring that Lisp is the answer to all problems is the problem to all answers.
20:55:52 <fizzie> Gregor-W: In the sense that it would be a lot more painful to write, sure.
20:56:12 <Gregor-W> Just depends on how much jelly we're willing to nail to the tree of C to make it easier.
20:56:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor-W, you'd need to operate on the AST to avoid insanity, really.
20:56:37 <Gregor-W> HEY GUYS this is not a real idea it was just a joke I spat from my brain :P
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20:56:40 <Phantom_Hoover> And making the AST part of the language standard is surely madness.
20:57:23 <olsner> Gregor-W: a joke? you should know you can't joke about stuff like that here
20:57:34 <Gregor-W> Hey, if somebody wants to write it, sweet.
20:58:53 <olsner> I'm thinking about actually implementing something like that in my language at some point, but it would probably be limited to type functions and use some kind of quasi-quoting
20:59:35 <Gregor-W> I was thinking about implementing that in my language. Then: PLOF! :P
20:59:45 <Gregor-W> (Which is to say, that BECAME the language :P )
21:00:36 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: somewhat like sugar and spice and all things nice
21:00:55 <olsner> no, it's just a silly little language, nothing to worry about
21:01:31 <Gregor-W> Nothing to see here, move along, move along?
21:02:14 <cpressey> Well, I have an idea for a C-like language with explicit malloc and free but provably safe. But it wouldn't be doing this "staticification" thing so far as I know.
21:03:52 <olsner> provably safe against which kinds of abuse?
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21:04:28 <cpressey> Um, never executing any machine code that you didn't mean to. Buffer overruns and such.
21:05:01 <Gregor-W> Oh, I figured you meant provably type-safe, never possible to dereference into data of one type while thinking it's another type.
21:05:09 <Gregor-W> If you have this wussy concept of safe, then it might be more feasible.
21:05:39 -!- Gregor-W has quit (Quit: Page closed).
21:05:59 <cpressey> It's type-safe for a certain type system.
21:06:10 <cpressey> It's not a very large or interesting type system...
21:07:14 <Gregor-P> If you define the type system such that the language is type-safe, *poof*, type safety! :P
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21:17:34 <cpressey> There are only 3 types: integers, structure of (type*), and pointer to type (which may or may not be valid.) But in that, it should be "type safe", including the property that you can't dereference an invalid pointer.
21:23:26 <Gregor-P> You'll either need whole-program analysis, or for parameters to be marked "freeable"
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21:27:09 <cpressey> Not sure what you mean about marking parameters "freeable". The other two I know I'm not going to do...
21:29:02 <cpressey> But I don't think I'll be doing that either. Speaking literally, any pointer could be free()d at any time.
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21:31:58 <Gregor-W> So here's my basic fear and reasoning: struct nasty { void (*nasty)(); }; void evil(struct nasty *n) { free(n); malloc(somegarbageWhichWillNowTakeNsPlace); } void main() { struct nasty *n = malloc(sizeof(struct nasty)); n->nasty = something reasonable; evil(n); n->nasty(); } // how can you possibly avoid this case if you don't statically know whether evil() frees?
21:33:13 <Gregor-W> You can either disallow it, but it generalizes to "make any use of a pointer after aliasing it or using it as a parameter", or ... well, or nothing.
21:33:24 <cpressey> Well, for one, I don't have function pointers. But I suppose that's a theoretically moot point, but give me some time to mentally translate the problem.
21:34:44 <Gregor-W> The function pointer was just to make it immediately obvious, it could be any pointer, maybe even other shtuff.
21:35:10 <olsner> hmm, you'd need to have some kind of ownership tracking and put that in the type system, wouldn't you?
21:35:14 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, removing function pointers is if anything a step backwards.
21:35:38 <cpressey> Gregor-W: Well, perhaps I should qualify my use of the word "pointer". Pointers in my language don't map directly to machine pointers. They have some smarts in them.
21:36:07 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: A step backwards? Define "forwards".
21:36:17 <Gregor-W> Unless those "smarts" are a garbage collector, I doubt it's sufficient :P
21:36:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, being able to pass functions as arguments is extremely useful.
21:36:38 <cpressey> Gregor-W: K, well, I'm not certain myself. We'll see :)
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22:11:32 <alise> I have no beliefs that cannot be dissuaded with cake.
22:12:00 <cpressey> What of the belief that you have no beliefs that cannot be dissuaded with cake?
22:12:33 <alise> I refuse the cake.
22:13:16 <cpressey> Drat. Well, twas worth a show.
22:15:23 <alise> Yer not the only one with a crazy OS, cpressey. >:|
22:15:30 <alise> I am implanting evil ideas into Phantom_Hoover's head.
22:15:45 <alise> 05:28:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Ian?
22:15:50 <alise> I can neither confirm nor deny.
22:16:09 <cpressey> alise: Ask oerjan about Phantom_Hoover's mind control device sometime.
22:17:01 <alise> Ian is someone's middle name whose initials are ais and who, on some university, has account number 523 of his initials.
22:17:04 <alise> I will say no more!
22:17:44 <cpressey> That would certainly explain the middle initial, then.
22:23:35 <Gregor-P> But I only have aaaaaaaaaaaais for youuuuuuuuu (why did this pop into my head :P)
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22:40:53 <olsner> cpressey: the mind-control device that lets Phantom_Hoover control other people's minds or the one that lets us control his mind?
22:41:55 <olsner> is he the resident expert on Phantom_Hoover mind control?
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23:06:32 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
23:08:22 -!- pikhq has joined.
23:11:03 <cpressey> Said like a once-drowning man, rescued, taking a breath.
23:11:27 -!- Gregor-W has joined.
23:11:31 <Gregor-W> pikhq: http://codu.org/music/op13/GRegor-op13-mov2-wipp10.ogg kthx :P
23:11:35 -!- Gregor-W has quit (Client Quit).
23:12:15 <pikhq> ... Did he actually have a script set to ping him for my joining?
23:13:11 <Gregor-P> No, I was just too lazy to type that URL on my phone :P
23:13:29 * pikhq shall listen to that after finishing Bohemian Rhapsody
23:14:12 * pikhq loves having good Internet again
23:14:21 <pikhq> Not just Internet, but *good* Internet.
23:14:35 <pikhq> Deciding to move 4 days before moving is t3h awesome. :P
23:15:05 <alise> pikhq: So are you in Hick Town now, or Hicky Hick Town?
23:15:22 <alise> As opposed to your previous residence, Hicky Hick Hicky Hick Hicky Hick Hicky Hick (Hicky Hick)^G_64 Town?
23:15:26 <pikhq> alise: I'm in a suburb of an actual (shock) city!
23:15:39 <alise> Hahahahaha, but seriously now, which is it.
23:15:50 <alise> * [pikhq] lindbohm.freenode.net :Stockholm, Sweden
23:15:52 <alise> Question answered.
23:16:02 <alise> (Note: Server locations TOTALLY ARE people locations.)
23:16:33 <alise> `addquote <pikhq> INTERNET <coppro> YAY <cpressey> Said like a once-drowning man, rescued, taking a breath.
23:16:42 <HackEgo> 204|<pikhq> INTERNET <coppro> YAY <cpressey> Said like a once-drowning man, rescued, taking a breath.
23:18:23 <coppro> alise: you realize that's just your server?
23:18:35 <alise> coppro: <alise> (Note: Server locations TOTALLY ARE people locations.)
23:18:42 <coppro> Freenode whois doesn't tell you which server someone's on, just which server location you're on
23:18:45 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Which Oregon?
23:18:52 <alise> I thought you said Portland.
23:19:06 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: My answer, then, is that there is Portland, wherein there is David Parsons.
23:19:32 <alise> Minimalist grumpy coder extraordinaire!
23:19:37 <pikhq> Gregor-P: So far (4:30), I quite like Opus 13, movement 2, WIP 10.
23:19:39 <alise> Also, that guy whose name I forget.
23:20:01 <alise> He is also a minimalist grumpy coder but less of both. (The TinyWM author)
23:20:31 <pikhq> ... What the hell so many packets at once
23:20:43 <alise> Gregor-P: I was mentioning people worth knowing
23:20:49 <alise> *I was talking about people
23:21:27 -!- Gregor-P has changed nick to Gregor-Portlandi.
23:21:30 <alise> Gregor-P: Aww I'm kidding you're adorable like a fluffy teddy bear, now where is the documentation for libavcodec? I can't find any.
23:21:31 <cpressey> Ooh, I be quoted twice in one day.
23:21:44 <HackEgo> 199|<Sgeo> Why shouldn't I just do everything in non-Microsoft-specific C#? <ais523> it's like trying to write non-IE-specific JavaScript with only Microsoft documentation and only IE to test on
23:21:44 -!- Gregor-Portlandi has changed nick to Gregor-P.
23:21:50 <HackEgo> 204|<pikhq> INTERNET <coppro> YAY <cpressey> Said like a once-drowning man, rescued, taking a breath.
23:21:57 <HackEgo> 203|<Phantom_Hoover> OK, so is conspiring to conspire to commit a crime a crime? <cpressey> Let's all get together and talk about defacing public property sometime
23:22:08 <alise> YOU DO NOT PUT THREE SPACES BETWEEN MESSAGES.
23:22:56 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: New quit message. Entering 2006 in style.).
23:23:01 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I suggest "pH".
23:23:07 -!- alise has changed nick to pH.
23:23:11 <pH> AWW IT'S TAKEN.
23:23:14 <pH> It is slick though.
23:23:15 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to PH______________.
23:23:25 -!- pH has changed nick to alise.
23:24:28 -!- PH______________ has changed nick to f.
23:24:39 <f> I cannot believe this isn't taken.
23:24:52 <alise> Like almost all single-char names.
23:24:58 <alise> The others are really-old-timers, or staff.
23:25:04 <f> Yes, but I can still take it...
23:25:04 <alise> Mostly staff, and they never use it.
23:25:28 -!- alise has changed nick to pH7.
23:25:41 -!- pH7 has changed nick to alise.
23:26:18 -!- f has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
23:28:04 <alise> Please supply me with libavcodec documentation.
23:28:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to God.
23:28:18 <alise> I swear it has no official docs.
23:28:34 <God> alise, my child, I can only manifest for 30 seconds
23:28:39 <God> The docs are at...
23:28:41 -!- Gregor-P has changed nick to write.
23:28:46 <alise> cpressey: Because it's the main part of FFmpeg, a super-major software project?
23:28:48 -!- God has changed nick to Guest26718.
23:28:54 <write> I forgot that I own this nick :P
23:29:02 -!- Guest26718 has changed nick to read.
23:29:10 -!- read has changed nick to Moriarty.
23:29:28 <alise> cpressey: No dissing ffmpeg. That's Fabrice Bellard you're dissing there.
23:29:33 <alise> You Do Not Diss Fabrice Fucking Bellard.
23:29:43 <pikhq> alise: Fabrice Bellard is not known for comprehensive documentation.
23:29:45 -!- Moriarty has changed nick to grub.
23:29:52 <alise> Yeah, but he isn't them main FFmpeg dev any more :P
23:29:53 <write> Fabrice Fucking Bellard. Mmmmmmmmmmm
23:30:11 -!- write has changed nick to Gregor-P.
23:30:13 <alise> All Gregor's gay fantasies are open source-related and preferably autosexual.
23:30:15 -!- grub has changed nick to Guest19696.
23:30:19 -!- Guest19696 has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
23:30:21 <alise> Oh, or Apollo-related.
23:30:55 <alise> Okay, but you don't tell us about the rest.
23:32:10 <cpressey> alise: Can't I be a zealot about how DARE you ask for documentation on a product where you can read the KODE?? Oh, *can't* I? PulEEZE?
23:32:15 <alise> DOGS that are simultaneously MACHINES.
23:32:25 <alise> Dashing DOG Machines; they are invading our Planet.
23:32:37 <alise> cpressey: Well, with a literate program, yeah, you could. :P
23:33:02 <cpressey> alise: NO. ALL DESCRIPTIONS OF THE CODE GO OUT OF DATE. ONLY CODE, CODE. IT IS TEH GOPSEL
23:33:14 <Gregor-P> That's because the nick list of this channel IS the rest!
23:33:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor-P, what about theoretical females on the channel?
23:33:56 <alise> They're gay fantasies too.
23:34:05 <alise> Gregor-P: You /could/ just be blatant about it and, say, propose a channel-wide orgy.
23:34:49 <Gregor-P> I PROPOSE A CHANNEL-WIDE ORGY however alise is not invited for legal, ethical and personal reasons.
23:34:59 <alise> Gregor-P: My heart is crushed.
23:35:58 <alise> Gregor-P: You understand if I stalk you down and murder you, right?
23:37:01 <alise> Cool, everyone in this channel can end up chasing each other and end up inadvertently having Gregor-P's planned orgy.
23:37:55 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Wait, lament is not female.
23:38:39 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, I thought lament's real name was Nikita something?
23:38:56 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, and Nikita is not solely a female name.
23:39:35 <alise> lament is very much male :P
23:39:42 <cpressey> lament is one of two other esolangers I've met in person. (The other was BEM.)
23:39:47 <alise> and a certified Crazy Op, so BE CAREFUL
23:39:57 <alise> Also, is he as unstable in real life?
23:39:58 <cpressey> BEM = Ben Olmstead, of Malbolge
23:40:05 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: He runs this chan.
23:40:11 <alise> He de jure runs this chan.
23:40:28 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Quit: Quit).
23:40:38 <cpressey> alise: He was very nice in real life. Ask him how unstable *I* am sometime :D
23:40:50 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: andreou or someon
23:40:53 <alise> I forget the exact name.
23:40:58 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Aardappel was founder at one point.
23:41:13 <alise> (of FALSE, Sauerbraten fame.)
23:41:17 <alise> Andreou or someone.
23:41:17 <cpressey> Uh, I would have thought "founder" was an immutable property.
23:41:22 <alise> I forget precisely. It's in the list logs somewhere.
23:41:27 <alise> cpressey: Welcome to ChanServ!
23:41:42 <alise> cpressey: Please abandon your sanity at the door. If you don't have any, get some then abandon it.
23:42:41 <alise> Let's see... channel founding is late 2002...
23:43:05 <alise> Hmm, where has it gone.
23:43:27 <Gregor-P> I think the established point is that if we had a channel-wide orgy, we'd all be on equal footing :P
23:43:36 <alise> From: "Al. Andreou" <ee4299@ee.teiath.gr>
23:43:36 <alise> X-X-Sender: <andreou@gin.bar>
23:43:36 <alise> To: <chat@esoteric.sange.fi>
23:43:36 <alise> Subject: [chat] Esolang IRC channel
23:43:42 <alise> He set up the channel on EFnet as #esoterica.
23:43:54 <alise> lament then suggested moving to the Open Projects Network (freenode).
23:44:08 <alise> andreou then refounded this very channel.
23:44:13 <alise> grep /IRC/: http://esoteric.sange.fi/archive/2002-q4
23:44:30 <alise> Aardappel was a founder at one point, I think; or at least an op.
23:44:58 <alise> Incidentally, even in 2003/2004, lament was talking about how the channel is so dead nowadays. :)
23:45:14 <alise> Of course, the graphs say that activity has been steadily increasing since forever...
23:45:18 <cpressey> Well, I have a grammar for Eightebed. It's 19 lines long. Now I have to implement it.
23:45:30 <olsner> is there a mailing list? or is that dead by now?
23:45:31 <alise> cpressey: I have a feeling Eightebed is not your most thoughtful esolang yet.
23:45:34 <alise> olsner: yes, it exists
23:45:49 <alise> olsner: if you sign up, every few months -- years, sometimes -- you get a quick thread of fun with some nice faces shown
23:45:52 <cpressey> alise: It's not super esoteric, no.
23:45:59 <alise> olsner: the price is a 2000% increase in spam box traffic
23:46:05 <alise> olsner: (barely even an exaggeration)
23:46:09 <alise> olsner: It's fine if you have gmail. :P
23:46:21 <alise> cpressey: But it must be ENLIGHTENING!
23:46:48 <alise> Sorry; EIGHTEBEDING!
23:47:09 <cpressey> alise: It's a design in response to Gregor's comments about why a language like Cyclone should have GC. (It's a language with explicit malloc/free, with only a modicum of static analysis, but which is nonetheless safe.)
23:47:35 <alise> I know what Cyclone is.
23:47:44 <alise> Anyway, pah, I hereby copyright Eightebed(C).
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23:47:49 <cpressey> Maybe I should have put "should" in quotes -- see log over past few days for the various views of the parties mentioned.
23:47:49 <alise> Yes, I am copyrighting names now.
23:47:54 <alise> Also trademarking. And registered trademarking.
23:47:59 <alise> Eightebed(C)(R)(TM).
23:48:14 <SgeoN1> I don't like being forced to do things
23:48:23 <cpressey> alise: What must I do to get your permission to use the name Eightebed then?
23:49:25 <alise> cpressey: It involves five yaks, a Golden toad that hasn't eaten for five days, five boxes of antique confetti (not stripped of uranium), dye number 90 (blood green), a very confused weasel, and three pieces of A4.15 paper.
23:49:43 <SgeoN1> Yes. But Sgeo is AFK. There is only SgeoN1
23:50:19 <alise> Wow, you reference Mozilla namespace pages before Ghostbusters.
23:50:27 <alise> cpressey: Can you supply these things?
23:50:40 <cpressey> alise: Well then! I may have to consult my lawyer. Who, thankfully, is also my yak husbander.
23:50:52 <SgeoN1> I was aware that the XUL thing was a reference of some sort...
23:51:04 <alise> SgeoN1: You've never seen Ghostbusters?
23:51:09 <alise> Please tell me that you have seen Ghostbusters.
23:51:22 <cpressey> The confetti will be hard to acquire. The weasel's state of confusion, however, should not.
23:51:45 <alise> SgeoN1: Okay, so that is why you are so strange.
23:51:50 <alise> SgeoN1: I prescribe one dosage of Ghostbusters.
23:51:57 <pikhq> SgeoN1: ... You have been living under a rock.
23:51:58 <alise> SgeoN1: Actually. Make that two.
23:52:22 <alise> I just mean two dosages.
23:52:27 <alise> cpressey: I request that all harm is done to animals in the making of this production.
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23:53:31 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: /I have no idea what you are talking about./
23:56:38 <pikhq> It is definitely not a cube. Whatever it was I was talking about is definitely not a cube.
23:56:54 <Phantom_Hoover> FWIW, SCP-055 is simply designed so that it slips right off the human mind, while the Device is rather more... proactive.
23:57:02 <alise> It's the world's most evil sex toy.
23:57:34 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, not originally. It might be repurposable to that end.
23:57:53 <alise> Anyone know how to make the first line of a LaTeX paragraph all in small-caps?
23:58:44 * SgeoN1 ponders making an epub of the FLR
23:59:56 <alise> SgeoN1: LaTeX the FLR. Oh god, I must do that.
00:00:07 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Nah; know it a little, but...
00:00:24 * cpressey leaves before he finds out what "the FLR" is
00:00:26 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
00:01:23 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: The Full Logical Ruleset of Agora Nomic.
00:01:54 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Disconnected by services).
00:01:57 <pikhq> alise: This month's copy of the FLR, I presume?
00:02:11 -!- Mathnerd314_ has joined.
00:02:27 -!- Mathnerd314_ has changed nick to Mathnerd314.
00:02:52 <alise> pikhq: Maybe I could AUTOMATE IT. /salivates
00:02:59 <alise> Ooh, provide little page numbers above rule references!
00:03:06 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: It's logical because it is. It's full because it includes rule history.
00:03:10 <alise> The Short Logical Ruleset doesn't.
00:03:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Things that will be done when I am in charge: all image transforms will be banned.
00:05:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, all image transforms in the context of photographs of oneself.
00:07:14 <SgeoN1> I was assuming it would be automated
00:07:36 <SgeoN1> Can you make epubs from LaTeX? I'd assume so...
00:08:10 <alise> SgeoN1: Uh, maybe.
00:08:15 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Disconnected by services).
00:08:22 <alise> pikhq: I need typographical opinions! If you are using drop caps, and start a chapter with a quote mark, how to set it?
00:08:30 <SgeoN1> I think there used to be chronological rulesets. I glanced at Agoranomic back in 2003 or 2005 or so.
00:08:37 <alise> Should the drop cap be {``E}? If so, does the `` extend into the margin? (Yes.)
00:08:45 <alise> Or should it be {E}, with a normal `` in the margin preceding it?
00:08:51 <alise> If the latter, how can I achieve this with LaTeX/
00:09:33 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
00:10:55 <pikhq> alise: I'm pretty sure it should be drop-cap'd {``E}, with `` extended into the margin.
00:11:04 <pikhq> How you achieve this, I know not.
00:11:10 <alise> pikhq: But then the closing '' looks unbalanced.
00:12:57 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Disconnected by services).
00:13:10 <pikhq> Yeah, but... Everything else is ugly.
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00:13:33 <pikhq> Small quote mark? *ugh*
00:14:29 <alise> I dunno, it could work, if in the margin.
00:14:39 <SgeoN1> I'm guessing I shouldn't be the one to epub-ify the FLR, given my cluelessness when it comes to typography
00:15:49 <SgeoN1> Although it would make me as famous as comex! Ok, not really, but I'm jealous
00:17:45 <alise> It's just a fucking iPhone jailbreak.
00:20:19 <alise> That garners rather less fame.
00:22:41 <SgeoN1> That sounds more like an office
00:22:59 <SgeoN1> Also, CFJs should be epubbed
00:23:00 * alise indents his first paragraph in latex
00:23:07 <alise> Why? Because it's only one line.
00:24:01 <SgeoN1> I'd only be Agoranomic...known
00:24:24 <SgeoN1> My phone has agoranomic as an autocorrect
00:28:29 <alise> Incidentally, Bjorn is the worst poet ever.
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00:40:32 <coppro> not the worst poet ever
00:40:39 <coppro> worst poet ever died when Earth exploded obv
00:40:55 <alise> “Incorrigible shopkeeper thou,
00:40:55 <alise> Who cannot even fields plow:
00:40:55 <alise> ‘Dear sir, I must be sure
00:40:55 <alise> Do you frolick and play in manure?’
00:40:55 <alise> Is a question I’m sure you’re oft asked;
00:40:56 <alise> And this divine duty with which I’m tasked?
00:40:58 <alise> To retrieve my stolen Device.”
00:41:18 <alise> coppro: Douglas Adams cannot emulate a truly terrible poet as well as a bad poet can.
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00:45:00 -!- nooga has joined.
00:45:34 <nooga> who wants to test our home-built 8088 computer?
00:47:44 <nooga> http://cutr.pl/dd54681099 <- the core :D
00:51:38 <alise> I would, if I understood it.
00:51:48 <alise> I'm going to be like Dickens, and release my terrible novels in serial form.
00:52:01 <alise> Here I present the first instalment of A Device Lost, a Bjorn tale!
00:52:02 <alise> http://filebin.ca/rhgbku/bjorn.pdf
00:52:27 <alise> Note: Bjorn has Infinite Personality Disorder.
00:53:26 <nooga> alise: it's almost like oooold IBM PC
00:53:43 <alise> Bjorn would never use a computer he couldn't eat.
00:53:44 <nooga> and that was the actual photo of working processor
00:54:15 <nooga> ah, disorder, i see
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01:29:50 <nooga> http://cutr.pl/5cffb3360e behold
01:44:33 <alise> http://i.imgur.com/NtXHf.png
01:56:58 <Gregor> http://codu.org/tmp/teddynom.gif
01:56:59 <nooga> if i was to build a lisp machine
01:57:15 <nooga> it would probably look exactly like QED
01:59:34 <nooga> Gregor: would you like to test this lovely bunch of ICs and wires?
02:00:02 -!- Gregor-P has quit (Quit: Bye).
02:00:09 <Gregor> CAN I TEST IT WITH MY TONGUE?
02:00:23 <nooga> no, but you can ssh the maintenance machine
02:00:55 <nooga> or just check out early code samples
02:01:16 <nooga> or just check out motd
02:07:59 <alise> <nooga> if i was to build a lisp machine
02:07:59 <alise> <nooga> it would probably look exactly like QED
02:08:01 <alise> which sense of QED?
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02:09:13 <nooga> QED is the name of that 8088 computer i showed you
02:09:19 <nooga> Quantum Explosion Dynamp
02:16:17 <alise> 11:59:59 <cpressey> Haskell doesn't suck.
02:18:35 <alise> 12:23:05 <fizzie> Gregor-P: re recursiveC: DOUBLE COMPILE. (reference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WxJECOFg8w and related)
02:18:41 <alise> Gosh. It's compiled twice.
02:21:57 <alise> See http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/10.08.02.
02:22:19 <Gregor> RecursiveC is a hypothetical C-based language with "static" parts that are bits of C code that output C which replaces the original code. Run those static bits over and over 'til you reach fixed-point, then voila! You could implement OO in header files :P
02:26:40 <alise> PHP is a dangerous drug.
02:32:29 <alise> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/cwep1/the_neverending_finite_loop/c0vt9vf?context=4
02:38:32 <alise> Infi-Loop I always use...
02:38:33 <alise> while(x > 0) { if (x < 2) x++; else x--; }
02:38:38 <alise> This person has never even considered while(1).
02:44:49 <Sgeo> Surely that poster was joking?
02:51:30 <alise> I have to be up in a bit less than 6 hours.
02:51:33 <alise> I should bed soon.
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03:38:33 <zzo38> I want to design a font using METAFONT (once I figure out how; neither this channel nor the #LaTeX channel was of much help), http://sprunge.us/OiNh is that a good encoding of list of chaacters to be included?
03:39:08 <zzo38> I don't exactly know how some of these should look though
03:39:33 -!- cal153 has joined.
03:39:56 <zzo38> That is, other than a few obvious ones, which might be taken from Computer Modern and then changed a bit
03:40:06 -!- comex has joined.
03:40:31 <zzo38> If there is blackboard bold, does that mean somebody will invent whiteboard bold?
03:40:41 -!- oerjan has joined.
03:41:26 <zzo38> I especially don't know the control graphics
03:42:01 <zzo38> pikhq: I can't do all of unicode, that is a lot. I only want a subset, which might however include some things that are not part of unicode
03:43:00 <zzo38> (I don't know if unicode has Greek blackboard bold, for one thing, and I don't know if these control graphics would be the same as unicode, my idea was using some special symbols to represent these control graphics instead of the way unicode does it)
03:43:46 <zzo38> If you might have noticed or not, the control graphic numbers are the same as the lowercase letters for those codes in a C program, for the ones that are usable in C strings.
03:44:10 <zzo38> ('\e' is GNU C only, but I included it so that it can be used with GNU C)
03:45:40 <zzo38> Some of the things in WEBMATH are already included in AMS, but I want one usable with Plain TeX and only one font for all the extra stuff
03:46:43 <zzo38> How many codes does Unicode have these days, anyways?
03:48:34 <zzo38> But how many? One million?
03:48:38 <pikhq> Some 75% of it is Han Unified Ideographs...
03:48:50 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
03:48:59 <pikhq> 107,361 as of October 2009.
03:49:08 * SgeoN1 is going to eat his first hamburger soon
03:49:21 <pikhq> SgeoN1: ... Your *first* hamburger?
03:49:28 <SgeoN1> My dad says I've eaten hamburgers before, but I don't remember
03:49:31 <pikhq> And you're in... America.
03:49:35 <zzo38> SgeoN1: When are you going to eat your first "burgerham"?
03:49:52 <SgeoN1> My dad has been paranoid about mad cow disease
03:50:05 <zzo38> OK, now I understand (I think)
03:50:05 <coppro> Unicode has 246,943 assigned codes
03:50:42 <zzo38> coppro: When do you ever think it will reach one million if it ever does?
03:50:57 <SgeoN1> Also, it's not going to be in hamburger buns, just slices of bread ;(
03:51:14 <Gregor> Sgeo: Tell us EVERY DETAIL of your FIRST HAMBURGER EVAR
03:51:19 <pikhq> SgeoN1: How do you *avoid* eating hamburgers in the USA?
03:51:40 <pikhq> This is a bit like avoiding seeing a fat person.
03:52:34 <oerjan> <coppro> Freenode whois doesn't tell you which server someone's on, just which server location you're on
03:53:00 <oerjan> you're on jordan.freenode.net in france. hth.
03:53:37 <zzo38> What I wanted to do is make a WEBMATH font (I might need help in many different ways), and then add a option in the next version of Enhanced CWEB to make it use this font, and then instead of overtyping the \ and n on each other it can use the TYPEWRITER CONTROL GRAPHIC NEW LINE OR LINE FEED character from the WEBMATH font.
03:53:48 <coppro> maybe seven doesn't have that feature
03:54:01 <oerjan> yeah that was about when it changed
03:54:06 <zzo38> The WHOIS does tell you.
03:54:35 <coppro> zzo38: yes, but for a while (probably on the old ircd) it would always reply with the server you were on, not the server the target of the request was on
03:54:48 <zzo38> coppro: Well, it works now (at least for me)
03:55:21 <coppro> pikhq: also, CJK ideographs fall just short of 75%
03:55:24 <oerjan> i vaguely recall it replied with irc.freenode.net for a while
03:55:51 <pikhq> coppro: Throw in kana and bopomofo, and what do you get? :P
03:56:24 <Gregor> I posted this as my Facebook status: "I'm unhappy that UTF-8 can't be extended indefinitely. Eight-byte UTF-8 wouldn't break too many invariants, since the value 255 never appears in conforming standard UTF-8, but nine-byte UTF-8 would almost unavoidably create ambiguities with two-byte UTF-8 :(. 42 payload bits is NOT ENOUGH. When we have to tell our new alien overlords that we can't fit their language into our encoding sch
03:56:24 <Gregor> eme, they're gonna be PISSED."
03:56:27 <Gregor> Two people have "liked" it.
03:56:34 <Gregor> I'm quite sure that neither of them have any idea wtf I'm talking about :P
03:56:35 <coppro> There are according to wikipedia 74384 ideographs and 107361 characters
03:56:54 <coppro> Gregor: extending UTF-8 is easily done
03:57:12 <Gregor> To eight bytes, yes. To nine bytes, no.
03:58:01 <coppro> oh, you care about the invariants
03:58:06 <coppro> right, yeah, you're stuck at 7
03:58:18 <pikhq> Gregor: Nine bytes is a TRIVIAL extension. We deprecate UTF-8 and move on to UTF-G_64.
03:58:21 <Gregor> Well, yeah. If we're gonna break all the invariants, what's the point :P
03:58:40 <coppro> actually, nah, it's easy
03:58:59 <coppro> 0b11111111 says that the next byte says how many more bytes are part of the same character :D
03:59:09 <coppro> (and they all start with 0b10
03:59:38 <zzo38> That way you can extend to more than nine bytes, then.
04:00:16 <coppro> you can run the sequence up indefinitely
04:00:20 <Gregor> coppro: Hmmmm, you've stuffed another layer of encoding into UTF-8, awesome X-d
04:02:57 <zzo38> In the 7-bit WEBMATH I don't have anything in 0x6D 0x6F 0x70 0x71, and in 8-bit I don't have anything in the high codes, but if you can make suggestion I can write it in
04:03:55 <zzo38> Or if anything I already have duplicates Computer Modern, I should also change it
04:05:28 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, I thought lament's real name was Nikita something?
04:05:33 <zzo38> coppro: I want to invent a font called WEBMATH and can be used in TeX and METAFONT
04:05:34 <zzo38> http://sprunge.us/OiNh
04:05:44 <oerjan> famous hot russian female: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-B0628-0015-035,_Nikita_S._Chruchstschow.jpg
04:05:55 <zzo38> There is the list, you can see some spaces are not filled in yet
04:07:14 <coppro> how do you use a font in METAFONT
04:07:18 <zzo38> (I know some of the characters duplicate ones in AMS, but I want this to be able to be used without AMS)
04:07:28 <coppro> also, I do not support this project
04:07:46 <zzo38> coppro: You can write the codes for it, and then write other codes to make it load into TeX and other programs
04:07:54 <zzo38> That is how you use a font in METAFONT.
04:07:57 <coppro> fonts that do not respect Unicode should be shot
04:08:36 <zzo38> coppro: That makes sense in most cases to use Unicode fonts, but TeX isn't Unicode based, so instead we put 256 characters in one font
04:09:06 <coppro> why aren't you using iTeX yet?
04:10:09 <myndzi> coppro's method seems like it would be rather big
04:10:23 <zzo38> I don't want to use iTeX, I want to use Plain TeX
04:10:25 <myndzi> i think by the time you get up to 9 bytes another encoding method would be preferable for efficiency reasons
04:10:49 <coppro> myndzi: THINK OF THE CHILDREN
04:10:52 <myndzi> ..on the other hand, if you're using 9 bytes to represent one character, i guess another byte is having less of an effect at that point than it would be if you were using only two
04:13:27 <pikhq> zzo38: XeTeX is Unicode based. Suck it.
04:14:12 <zzo38> I looked at the iTeX description, and it completely makes nonsense!
04:14:39 <zzo38> pikhq: Can XeTeX work with Plain TeX?
04:15:49 <zzo38> What differences does XeTeX have from normal TeX?
04:17:00 <pikhq> It uses Unicode as its encoding, it supports OpenType fonts directly, and it outputs to PDF.
04:18:44 <zzo38> pikhq: Then that means I can't use DVI with it?
04:18:58 <zzo38> Does it also mean METAFONT can't be used with it?
04:19:33 <pikhq> It also supports METAFONT.
04:19:37 <pikhq> It doesn't do DVI.
04:19:42 <pikhq> DVI is an archaicism, anyways.
04:21:56 <zzo38> I think I still prefer the normal TeX system.
04:22:29 <Sgeo> What does LaTex use? Does it fit over any of these.. thingies, or is it TeX-only?
04:22:59 <coppro> btw, if you haven't seen, it, you need to watch http://river-valley.tv/media/conferences/tug-2010/Don-Knuth/
04:23:48 <zzo38> Wikipedia article for XeTeX says it uses LaTeX
04:24:35 <zzo38> I learned some things about METAFONT, I think it is not a bad program for designing fonts, however I cannot get it to work
04:24:36 * Sgeo is now 20 different types of confused
04:24:46 <Sgeo> Soon I'll be confused tracking all the ways I'm confused!
04:24:47 <pikhq> Sgeo: LaTeX is a set of macros for TeX.
04:32:35 * Sgeo terminally fails at references
04:32:42 <zzo38> One thing I like about Plain TeX opposed to LaTeX, is that in Plain TeX I can run "tex" only once and still have all cross-references and everything correct, with no auxiliary files.
04:42:08 <comex> well, I like Plain Text.
04:43:38 <zzo38> Why did they make LaTeX require multiple passes and a separate program to make index, and so on?
04:46:27 <zzo38> What do I need to make METAFONT work on MiKTeX?
04:47:19 <coppro> have you watched the video yet?
04:47:56 <zzo38> The video won't play
05:11:37 <zzo38> I got METAFONT to work now, but it still doesn't work in interactive mode?
05:13:12 <zzo38> Can fonts with METAFONT be converted to other formats, in case some other programg uses other formats?
05:18:50 <Sgeo> It's possible to make ePub files by hand!
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05:19:08 <Sgeo> Of course, I won't, but I will attempt to make an automated epub creator for Agoran Rulesets
05:19:22 <Sgeo> Can ePubs reference other books? I doubt it, but that would be awesome for the Agoran stuff
05:19:33 <Sgeo> Crosslinks between CFJs and the FLR
05:20:20 <Sgeo> "If your book is in the HTML format, you can use Book Glutton to convert it to ePub"
05:20:51 <coppro> let's make a SVG version
05:21:05 <coppro> that way we can make it as small as we want it ;)
05:21:20 <Sgeo> ePub will be very useful to me soon
05:21:50 <Sgeo> Getting an eReader soon hopefully
05:22:20 <Sgeo> Hmm, def. want custom thing for the FLR... there's a Table of Contents thing in the spec, apparently
05:22:23 <coppro> (I find it funny that we as a people are now starting to move away from PDF because it does exactly what it was designed to do)
05:26:29 <Sgeo> BookGlutton costs $5 :(
05:27:36 <Sgeo> Hmm, if I got a Nook, would I be able to have it automatically retrieve the latest version of the ePub somehow?
05:28:48 * Sgeo vaguely wonders how far back RTRR goes
05:28:55 <Sgeo> 1 ePub for each RTRR!
05:37:41 <Sgeo> When was coppro playing Mafia?
05:37:51 <Sgeo> With people I don't recognize?
05:38:09 <Sgeo> Found a text file wolfgame.txt
05:38:12 <Sgeo> Looks like an IRC log
05:38:22 <Sgeo> Hmm, by that name, I guess you call it Werewolves
05:38:56 <Sgeo> I have no idea
05:39:08 <Sgeo> I can list names of the participants though
05:39:24 <coppro> how can you have found a file but not know where you found it?
05:39:24 <Sgeo> modargo, Narrator, Crispy-, coppro, Coboney, Leecifer
05:39:35 <coppro> that was #wolf of EFNet
05:39:52 <Sgeo> Most importantly: Why do I have a log of this?
05:40:08 <Sgeo> It was in my Downloads folder...
05:41:00 <coppro> can you send me a copy? Maybe there is something special about it
05:42:20 <Sgeo> Erm, email it to you?
05:44:23 <zzo38> PDF has too many stupid features in my opinion
05:44:53 <coppro> hm... I remember that game
05:44:58 <coppro> nothing particularly remarkable about it
05:45:23 <coppro> no clue why you'd have a log
05:47:07 <zzo38> Plain TeX is much more better than LaTeX why don't you believe it?
05:47:58 * Sgeo just wants to make epubs
05:49:53 <Sgeo> A file format usable by most ereaders
05:50:33 <Sgeo> Hmm, the Map of Agora isn't exactly reflowable
05:51:14 <zzo38> How does epub work?
05:53:27 <zzo38> Is it like HTML or like PDF or DVI or like bitmap picture files, or how does it work?
05:55:33 <Sgeo> More like HTML than like bitmaps
05:55:52 <Sgeo> Very much like HTML, I think, actuallhy
05:56:07 <zzo38> What is its feature support, colors, fonts, printout, etc?
06:02:34 <zzo38> Perhaps I can make Icoruma->ePub, even, if I want to, or if anyone else wants to write a converter program for Icoruma documents. So, it would be useful if you wanted to write the rules for a role-playing game on ePub
06:11:49 <zzo38> Has anyone implemented any variant of INTERCAL in TeX?
06:25:14 <Sgeo> zzo38, what do you have against Python?
06:25:33 <zzo38> Sgeo: I just don't like it much. C is more better in my opinion.
06:26:02 <zzo38> I have nothing against Python, though.
06:26:14 <Sgeo> This user is made out of userboxes
06:27:20 <zzo38> Are you looking at my Wikipedia?
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06:28:34 <zzo38> (Feel free to change it if you don't like it; it is a wiki page and anyone can edit it)
06:29:02 <Sgeo> Why would I change it? It's a page about you!
06:29:18 <zzo38> Sgeo: Because you found a mistake in it, perhaps?
06:29:48 <zzo38> Or to make improvement?
06:30:09 <zzo38> Is there a userbox for TeX?
06:30:11 <Sgeo> I think the only mistake that could be present in a page of userboxes is a syntactical failure to include a userbox properly
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06:35:43 <zzo38> Feel free to add, remove, change, and improve. Just don't deny anyone else these same rights, including the right to distribute and use it. That is all I ask. If you want to call it your own, go ahead. If you want to sell it and earn a lot of money from it, that is OK, too. Just don't deny other people these same rights.
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06:42:18 <zzo38> There is userboxes related to LaTeX, but not for Plain TeX.
06:42:23 <zzo38> Maybe I should add some
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10:15:05 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: eval ( 4 ( atan 1)) ( if ( equal? ( 3 4))? i
10:15:24 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
10:16:20 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: im no good at it too, fnord... um... 2 lectures or so, which one should i install in /usr/ lib
10:19:02 <Sgeo_> Also pondering making an epub of all of the CFJs in Murphy's db
10:19:45 * ais523 wonders why you'd want to install a lecture in /usr/lib
10:19:51 <ais523> INTERCAL object-orientation reference?
10:21:43 <Sgeo_> Also, considering epub'ing the SLR instead of the FLR
10:24:14 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: java isn't too bad.' this is valid.
10:24:47 <ais523> it's not as bad as people make it out to be
10:25:05 <ais523> although it's far from the ideal programming language
10:25:16 * Sgeo_ wonders if it might be better to programmatically create DocBook stuff
10:25:28 <Sgeo_> Since there's an easy DocBook -> EPUB converter
10:29:54 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: fungot has an anti-spam thing, it won't respond to the same person too many times in a row
10:29:55 <fungot> ais523: like a caged environment for innocent little newbie schemers to keep them in mind :) ttyl i'm going to
10:30:17 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: fnord wanted dialog...... huh......really? oh a net address! oh, the question needs to be
10:35:59 <fungot> Selected style: fisher (Fisher corpus of transcribed telephone conversations)
10:36:10 <fizzie> fungot: Maybe you could be a bit more casual there.
10:36:10 <fungot> fizzie: exactly and and the cases they deal with are usually very depressing
10:38:13 <fungot> Sgeo_: you hit on a really like annoying cliff hanger like not like you go to the next place and then the
10:38:43 <Sgeo_> Well, we know fungot is a teen girl
10:38:43 <fungot> Sgeo_: you know i'm making dinner table or something you know and and
10:38:47 <ais523> a sentence talking about a really annoying cliff hanger
10:38:58 <ais523> and then stopping just before it explains what the cliff hanger is
10:39:27 <ais523> I think that's the fungot version of "how do you keep an idiot in suspense?"
10:39:27 <fungot> ais523: ( ( fitness and health)) i've ( ( wanted)) to talk to you again laughter but be careful seriously oh that's wonderful
10:39:29 <Sgeo_> [ Directed by M. Night Shyamalan ]
10:40:41 <fizzie> npviewer.bin is usually Flash.
10:40:50 <fizzie> It's a "Netscape Plugin", after all.
10:41:33 <fizzie> (I think it's nspluginwrapper's thing around the 32-bit Flash on a x86-64 system.)
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11:27:10 <nooga> how does fungot work? it takes sentences from the logs?
11:27:10 <fungot> nooga: it just seems like you know like
11:30:04 <ais523> nooga: it has a bunch of data; IRC logs is its current data source
11:30:09 <ais523> but you can set it to other things too
11:30:11 <fungot> Selected style: agora (a large selection of Agora rules, both current and historical)
11:30:28 <ais523> see, now it's drawing from current and historical rulesets of Agora
11:30:31 <fungot> ais523: a frankenstein monster, and the minimum hand size shall be four classes of cards exist than its own content, and
11:30:45 <ais523> and it looks for common words at different places in the data source
11:30:56 <ais523> and jumps from bit to bit as long as there are words in common
11:31:01 <ais523> so the result makes sense locally, but not globally
11:31:35 <ais523> IIRC it was optbot which quoted random literal lines from logs, rather than merging many together like fungot does
11:31:35 <fungot> ais523: but after taking all other rules, or
11:32:19 <ais523> nooga: is that a clear enough explanation?
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12:07:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Wow, Emacs removed all of their yows but one for copyright reason,
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12:24:13 <ais523> hmm, I'm beginning to think that this department has trouble tracking personell
12:24:21 <ais523> first, they seem to forget I exist
12:24:40 <ais523> now, we get an email saying "if you notice someone new working in your office, send round an email to introduce them"
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12:44:51 <ais523> wow, after randomly browsing reddit, I just had a really evil idea
12:45:10 <ais523> what you do is, you decide that you want a class that contains, say, run() and eval() methods
12:45:31 <ais523> so, you get your OO language (say Java) to load every class it can access, and inspect it to see if it has those methods
12:45:39 <ais523> and if it does, you instantiate it and then run the methods
12:45:45 <ais523> what could possibly go wrong?
12:45:55 <ais523> (Bonus: this is actually how object orientation works in CLC-INTERCAL)
12:46:19 <ais523> (although at least it checks whether there's only one appropriate class, first)
12:50:42 <fizzie> Can you sensibly enumerate classes in Java, though? Reflection via a ClassLoader lets you look things up by name, but I'm unsure about listing them.
12:51:12 <ais523> just try all possible legal identifiers in sequence
12:51:30 <fizzie> Ah, the brute-force method.
12:52:31 <ais523> alternatively, you could use a bit of knowledge about how the default ClassLoader works, and just look through the entire filesystem to get the names of things that could be potentially loaded
12:53:47 <fizzie> I remember looking for a "list all classes you so far know about" method in java.lang.Package, but there wasn't any; even though there's a static java.lang.Package.getPackages() which asks the ClassLoader to list all packages it has seen.
12:58:44 <fizzie> The AI competition game GUI app looks for all .jar files in the current directory and its immediate subdirectories; for each .jar it peeks at the manifest for metadata that indicates a bot. I didn't really want people to have to fiddle with classpaths or so if they wanted to try out a bot-.jar they had.
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13:14:24 <fizzie> Speaking of fungot, the explanation up there is conceptually speaking feasible, although if you want to pick some nits, technically speaking it's not "jumping from bit to bit", but instead it collects frequency counts for all n-tuples of consecutive words (where n is about 3 or 4 or so), and then just decides next word randomly based on the frequencies of all (say) 4-tuples where first three words match the current context.
13:14:24 <fungot> fizzie: " first-class person becomes a registered player, by announcing that e insists. a player is ineligible to
13:16:56 <ais523> yep, it comes to the same thing, but it's a rather different implementation from what I suggested
13:18:01 <fizzie> Of course everyone can just take a peek at the sources to immediately see the implementation strategy.
13:18:34 <fizzie> I think there's even a comment in there.
13:19:04 <fizzie> Hmn, it seems that the comment simply says "pickword:", which might be a bit ambiguous.
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17:06:40 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: any order issued, the date of the period of
17:09:16 <fizzie> ais523 is the one who agorafied him.
17:09:19 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
17:09:33 <fizzie> fungot: Now you're the definition of excitement and unborigness.
17:09:35 <fungot> fizzie: the impressive number of projects in the energy efficiency measures have not halted, still less for commercial or economic reasons. veritable ' dictatorship' by the stock exchange lists of all european agriculture systems and not just for those in financial difficulty. we hope that, because trafficking in human beings
17:10:34 <fizzie> fungot: Who's trafficking in human beings? Is this some sort of preliminary stage of the coming robot revolution?
17:10:35 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, first i should like to thank the commissioner for the attention they are given recognition on this level. we welcome the consideration of environmental integration than on other reform aspects. we are not the guilty party. for those engaging in these activities are carried on in denmark, as jens-peter bonde emphasised, and other elements as well.
17:11:02 <fizzie> He sounds *just* like a politician this way.
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17:15:47 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: i declined to vote in favour of the proposal on biofuels, which i cannot accept amendments nos 11, 15, 26, 28, 33, 36 to 43 and, in accordance with the compromise that we reached, fortunately, we were discussing a different proposal and this report, and a rights guarantee system. we will not be the case but they must be built upon in vienna, so that we can avoid a number of consumer protection and to preserving
17:17:03 <oerjan> the danish human trafficking, obviously
17:17:12 <fizzie> fungot: Is something rotten in the state of Denmark?
17:17:14 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, i would add the injury of indifference to the well-being of patients suffering from inherited diseases have been told here that national legislation on pay, and those that follow will help us to ensure that there is room for the benefit of the alcohol market is satisfactorily addressed by this proposal for codecision is the result of the way there. turning to another important european union decision: enla
17:19:10 <fungot> si.zb: mr president, commissioner, the aid procedure. my concern, personally, i believe, on the basis of the international conventions, needs for protection and family reunification.
17:20:11 <fizzie> Oh, okay; then it's just the usual clairvoyancy thing.
17:22:27 <fizzie> "93 9f 97 84 82 95 9b 8b 99 73 98 69 8d 9a 9e 2e 7a 92 88 91 8c 62"; that's not a very obvious sequence of bytes.
17:23:57 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: mr president, ladies and gentlemen, i would like to congratulate mr blokland on the classification of european export shares to asia as a proportion of publicly financed social and economic difficulties there, its crisis of political confidence and its restrictions of democratic freedom, which only brings together members of the new millennium
17:25:45 <fizzie> All hail Mr. Blokland; sounds like a LEGO thing.
17:26:29 <oerjan> financing asian social and economic difficulties
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17:28:00 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover_: in its short justification, the committee on budgetary control, we should be penalising employers who shamelessly exploit immigrants who have no desire to hand over the issue of comitology. i welcome the fact that all this may bring to bear on those principally responsible for the 500 000 protesters were perfectly aware of the problem demands that we close our eyes to the facts.
17:29:43 <oerjan> i note that the fnords are not visible in this style - clearly this shows that this _is_ an illuminati plot
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17:31:07 <cpressey> A confluence of illuminati ploti?
17:31:51 <oerjan> CONFLVENTIA PLOTORVM ILLVMINATORVM
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18:04:16 <cpressey> OK, so I have a parser for Eightebed done, and the beginnings of a type checker. I just need to finish that, extend it to do simple validity analysis, write the translator (to C), and write the runtime for the translated code (in C)...
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18:09:27 <Phantom_Hoover> CPS is very similar to the standard x86 calling convention...
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18:09:55 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: ? The standard x86 calling convention uses the stack IIRC...
18:10:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, it uses an address rather than a continuation, of course.
18:12:31 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Actually, it's more that *call stacks* are very similar to CPS.
18:12:56 <cpressey> Call stacks are crippled continuations
18:15:10 <pikhq> cpressey: Except when you add stronger stack manipulation.
18:15:45 <pikhq> (in particular things like stack-swapping coroutines...)
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18:23:47 <cpressey> Granted. But I would say even the fanciest stack arrangement limits the power of continuations.
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18:28:25 <pikhq> cpressey: Not really. One can use each stack as a continuation. :P
18:29:11 <pikhq> (this is most useful for the setup provided by getcontext et al, where each new stack has, at its bottom, the start of a function that will jump to a different stack...)
18:29:51 <cpressey> pikhq: OK, fine. Two stacks and you have a Turing tape anyway, right.
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18:31:14 <cpressey> But then if you have a Turing machine, who needs functions or continuations anyway? See, this is not at all what I was getting at...
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18:56:21 <cpressey> I see the Python debugger is just as much a debugger as all other debuggers.
19:03:25 <oerjan> \emptyset, \cup or \bigcup . iirc.
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19:04:35 <zzo38> I think it is $\emptyset$ for empty set symbol in TeX?
19:05:05 <zzo38> (I don't know if it is different for LaTeX, or for AMS-LaTeX)
19:05:46 <zzo38> I checked now, it is $\emptyset$
19:08:30 <Sgeo_> Wait, what's the difference between $\emptyset$ and \emptyset ?
19:08:43 <zzo38> If you are not in math mode you have to enter math mode first
19:09:14 <zzo38> Otherwise you would normally use it inside of a mathematical equation, so put $ around the entire equation instead of only around the \emptyset part
19:11:15 <oerjan> "many people prefer the look of AMS's \varnothing ... to that of LaTeX's \emptyset.
19:11:36 <zzo38> I suppose if you are using AMS you can use \varnothing instead
19:11:57 <oerjan> (from http://www.ctan.org/tex-archive/info/symbols/comprehensive/symbols-a4.pdf which is _too_ comprehensive, took me ages to find the last one)
19:14:13 <zzo38> I have idea to add a few additional commands into TeX \rawread \rawwrite \boxpush \boxpop \boxenqueue \boxdequeue \tokpush \tokpop \tokenqueue \tokdequeue
19:15:05 <oerjan> that document seems to use LaTeX2e as the lowest common denominator, so nothing about just TeX specified
19:16:36 <cpressey> AMSTeX is the only TeX that matters
19:16:42 <cpressey> (Just trying to start a fight)
19:17:05 <zzo38> cpressey: I don't think so, there are many kinds that are used, they all matter
19:17:41 <cpressey> I don't care about TeX - I just want a sed that handles UTF-8 properly
19:18:03 <zzo38> cpressey: O, perhaps you can modify sed to do that, if you want it like that?
19:18:26 <cpressey> I'd sooner write a Perl script to do the replacements for me
19:18:54 <cpressey> Or Python, considering I have an idea of how Python's Unicode support works, but know nothing about Perl;s.
19:20:23 <cpressey> Wait, it does. I was just writing a bad regexp previously. Heheh.
19:20:42 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: http://omega.albany.edu:8008/Symbols.html is a bit more maintainable :D
19:21:20 <fizzie> cpressey: My sed doesn't handle UTF-8 properly in the sense that it'd understand multibyte sequences to be one character, but you can still do some simple operations even while it just thinks as sequences of bytes.
19:21:28 <oerjan> how the heck should i know, i just googled "tex symbols"
19:22:41 <fizzie> Wait, sed at home actually seems to be locale-aware. Freaky! It must've been some other sed that didn't do it right. (Or maybe I, too, wrote a bad regexp.)
19:22:41 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: the date "11 Jan 95" _could_ be a hint
19:23:29 <fizzie> "echo ä | sed -e 's/./x/'" => "x"; "echo ä | LC_CTYPE=C sed -e 's/./x/'" => "x¤". It certainly does locale-specificity.
19:23:38 <Phantom_Hoover> The union of any set with the empty set is equal to the original set, isn't it?
19:24:51 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: also, \cup is used as a binary operator, while \bigcup is generally used for indexed stuff, like the sigma sum symbol
19:25:12 <zzo38> More addition commands into TeX \pushmode \popmode \undefhandler
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19:30:28 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: incidentally with the table called "delimiters" iirc you can put \left or \right commands before some of them to make them expand in size. e.g. matrices can be put between \left[ and \right]
19:30:51 <zzo38> Even more additional commands into TeX \foreach \alltolerate \readglue \readmuglue \processglue \processmuglue
19:32:12 <Gregor-P> \notolerate \krystalnacht \myhead
19:32:18 <zzo38> cpressey: Do you use TeX?
19:32:34 <oerjan> or you could use \left( and \right) as parentheses if your formula is so big the usual ones become awkward
19:32:34 <zzo38> Gregor-P: And what would \krystalnacht and \myhead mean?
19:32:54 <cpressey> zzo38: I tried using LaTeX, once, years ago. Safe to say I've forgotten almost everything about it.
19:34:04 <Gregor-P> oerjan: Thanks, I knew that was all wrong but can't check on my phone :P
19:34:16 <zzo38> cpressey: Maybe in LaTeX you don't need to deal with glue. But Plain TeX uses glue values, which means the natural length, as well as how much it is allowed to be shrink and how much it is allowed to be long, for inserting spaces, such as spaces between words in lines of paragraph text.
19:34:58 <cpressey> This must be why I've never "progressed beyond" HTML.
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19:35:44 <oerjan> zzo38: LaTeX has various length designations, some expandable, some not
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19:36:20 <zzo38> cpressey: Perhaps you could try using TeX for some thing one time, I use it and it works.
19:36:48 <zzo38> (And if you want to type the rules of a role playing game, you might use Icoruma and then compile Icoruma files into other formats, such as TeX and HTML)
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19:38:30 <zzo38> (Although I prefer Plain TeX, but different people might prefer LaTeX or other packages)
19:38:43 <cpressey> zzo38's wikipedia user page just ate my brain
19:39:04 <oerjan> zzo38: i suspect most non-programmers will find TeX to require too much handling of details
19:39:12 <zzo38> cpressey: O NO I DIDN'T KNOW WIKIPEDIA PAGES HAS TO EAT!!
19:39:22 <zzo38> Wikipedia pages don't have to eat
19:39:43 <zzo38> Only the people that write it has to eat. (But not necessarily eating the pages!)
19:41:21 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, you are probably right. But the programming that can be done in TeX is what makes it good idea in my opinion!
19:41:26 <cpressey> zzo38: You are so totally one of those grey aliens pretending to be a human, aren't you?
19:42:03 <zzo38> cpressey: No, I don't think so, not as far as I know, anyways.
19:42:51 <zzo38> I am one of those humans that perhaps it is not meant to be humans but is instead supposted to be some kind of weird monsters that actually doesn't exist and nobody knows nothing about, not even me.
19:42:57 <zzo38> But this is also doubtful.
19:43:10 <zzo38> cpressey: OK, believe what you want to believe either way
19:43:21 <zzo38> (But I am warning you!)
19:43:44 <cpressey> Warning duly noted. Constraining belief systems, please wait...
19:50:17 <zzo38> My Wikipedia userpage mentions rotary telephones, I still use them (I use touchtone as well), but I also use phone that must be pulsed manually, which is the easiest kind to build.
19:50:34 <zzo38> Because is simple and uses less component of others
19:50:57 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Sorry, what Device do you mean? I don't know.
19:51:25 <cpressey> Really surprised that there are any phone companies in NA that still support pulse dialing.
19:51:47 <cpressey> Was just reading an article about technologies going "obsolete", by concidence
19:51:49 <ais523> north america, presumably
19:52:25 <cpressey> One of the technologies on this list is the "Computer Mouse"
19:52:27 <zzo38> I think everyone should still continue to support pulse dialing
19:53:07 <zzo38> So that anyone can build a telephone from just a few wires and it will work
19:53:14 <ais523> zzo38: do you think everyone should continue to support unsliced bread?
19:54:46 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, I think you can, however you can make it at home baking it, so you don't need to have it commonly available at the store if you do not want to
19:55:01 <cpressey> I think DIP packaging should be banned. Only surface-mount packaging should be manufactured. This will make it much, much harder for pesky individual hobbyists to experiment with electronics.
19:55:51 <zzo38> cpressey: I think both DIP packaging and surface-mount should be remain available.
19:56:29 <cpressey> Also, facetiousness should be punishable by being beaten with a sausage.
19:56:49 <zzo38> cpressey: What is the purpose of that?
19:57:13 <ais523> my first degree was in electronic engineering
19:57:21 <ais523> and surface mount is entirely possible to handle, just more annoying
19:57:38 <ais523> besides, call me back when you invent surface mount wire
19:57:46 <zzo38> ais523: Which is why both ways should remain available.
20:04:02 <cpressey> Sure, it are possible, but if only SM was available, I would probably choose something like kite-building over electronics as a hobby.
20:05:01 <cpressey> There's something I'm missing though, about hobbies I mean, but that's a different subject.
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20:18:27 <Sgeo_> I had a problem. Google had the solution
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20:34:26 <Sgeo> Well, now I'm having a different
20:34:29 <Sgeo> different problem
20:34:34 <Sgeo> And finding no solutions :(
20:38:30 <Sgeo> There's RDP support in Ubuntu, right?
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20:44:20 <Sgeo> I'm not in Ubuntu right now
20:44:23 <Sgeo> I'm on Windows
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21:30:15 <cpressey> Googling for Icoruma is an adventure!
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21:37:22 <cpressey> http://jyte.com/cl/i-have-used-at-least-10-different-programming-languages
21:38:16 <cpressey> I just counted -- I've used 18 "for serious". Counting Visual Basic, 8-bit Microsoft BASIC, and Business BASIC as different languages, and x86 and 6502 as different too.
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21:39:28 <cpressey> I can't count, like, Forth or Prolog, because I've just never gotten very serious with them.
21:45:05 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Not even school projects? That you've enjoyed? I've done a school project in Prolog, and if I had enjoyed it, I would have included it...
21:45:42 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, I have whined endlessly about how terrible my school's computing course was.
21:45:46 <cpressey> Prolog is an excellent tool for expressing logical relations. A programming language -- not so much.
21:48:19 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Write something you care about in it, and you could raise that 0 to a 1. (Just sayin'.)
21:48:58 <cpressey> But not in a way that you'd consider "for serious"?
21:50:03 <AnMaster> <cpressey> http://jyte.com/cl/i-have-used-at-least-10-different-programming-languages <-- what is jyte?
21:50:08 <cpressey> Well, I'm not really using that as a criteria. Almost everything I've written in Haskell or 6502 assembly has been for my own amusement.
21:50:29 <cpressey> AnMaster: It came up during my google search for Icoruma.
21:51:08 <cpressey> (1:36:24 PM) zzo38: (And if you want to type the rules of a role playing game, you might use Icoruma and then compile Icoruma files into other formats, such as TeX and HTML)
21:51:41 <AnMaster> cpressey, oh go to zzo's website. He is NIH
21:52:21 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, really? I was strongly under the impression that zzo was invented here.
21:53:04 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: mr president, commissioner, this is one of numerous documents which we ourselves have done in which you are facing up to the year 2012.
21:53:21 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: mr president, as several speakers have drawn attention to the needs of a european space strategy together with the proposal on the general headquarters of the united nations.
21:54:04 <Phantom_Hoover> The UN are going to destroy the world in 2012 with European orbital weapons!
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22:22:16 <Sgeo> That's one eBook I can find only in the Kindle store :(
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22:51:09 <coppro> Can someone please do a /me in a few seconds?
22:51:30 * cpressey refuses to cooperate with coppro
22:56:51 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, plans for 2012 clearly
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00:59:36 <coppro> alise: I travel for M:tG tournaments; you never know, I could be in the UK next year
00:59:51 <alise> coppro: I bet in London or some other big city.
01:00:01 <coppro> alise: most likely, yes
01:00:01 <AnMaster> coppro, Sweden. See that is why you should include country. Not just state
01:00:10 <alise> If you're not in Newcastle, you're too far away to visit Hexham without making me worry that rape is a serious possibility.
01:00:27 <AnMaster> coppro, not that I'm in Västerbotten. But I don't want to be more specific than "Sweden"
01:01:03 <coppro> (oddly enough, Ontario is far less specific geographically, but significantly more specific in terms of the number of people it might be
01:01:30 <alise> Ontario is bigger than Alberta?
01:01:30 <AnMaster> coppro, so lower population density
01:01:39 <alise> Oh, are you meaning the area
01:01:49 <coppro> I was comparing to Sweden
01:01:51 <alise> I was confusing Ottawa and Ontario.
01:01:58 <alise> Now I'm /really/ confused.
01:01:59 <coppro> Ontario is larger both in area and population than Alberta
01:02:13 <alise> I thought you meant Ottawa, which I thought was called Ontario because I am confused.
01:02:38 <olsner> aren't ottawa and ontario both in canada?
01:02:51 <alise> Ottawa is also in Ontario.
01:02:57 <coppro> Ottawa is the capital of Canada, conveniently located in Ontario
01:02:57 <alise> It's almost as if areas of the world are nested.
01:03:07 <alise> coppro: but the capital of Ontario is Toronto, isn't it?
01:03:12 <AnMaster> now, saying Västerbotten to olsner would be far more successful of course
01:03:14 <olsner> alise: nested!? woah!!
01:03:16 <alise> I believe that is what I read on Wikipedia three seconds ago
01:03:23 <alise> That's not confusing at all.
01:03:42 <olsner> AnMaster: I have no idea where that is except it's in sweden, probably up north
01:03:55 <AnMaster> olsner, hah, but you live in Sweden
01:03:58 <alise> coppro: I think Ontario is more populous than Sweden.
01:04:00 <AnMaster> olsner, and yes up north somewhere.
01:04:13 <coppro> but is also a part of the National Capital Region
01:04:25 <AnMaster> olsner, I suspect I passed through on the sleeper train
01:04:30 <AnMaster> if it is along the coast ther is
01:04:32 <alise> Ontario: 13,167,894
01:04:58 <olsner> oh, sweden is small! (what else is new...)
01:05:10 <AnMaster> olsner, not by European area standards
01:05:11 <alise> olsner's conceptions about the world are being destroyed so badly today
01:05:12 <coppro> I thought Sweden had more people
01:05:21 <AnMaster> by population standards everywhere it is small
01:05:32 <alise> coppro: they all moved to finland because finland borders russia, where there are bears
01:05:37 <alise> reminding them of where they truly want to be, canada
01:05:41 <alise> so in a sense they're all canadian citizens.
01:06:06 <AnMaster> olsner, London's population makes up a bit more than 80% of Sweden's population. Yet afaik UK has less area than Sweden
01:06:08 <olsner> I learned from random old guy (who was also an immigrant from somewhere in africa) that sweden is the third largest country in the EU
01:06:16 <alise> but sweden is tiny
01:06:23 <AnMaster> alise, there are bears in Sweden?
01:07:08 <olsner> (by "small" I did mean in terms of population though, not in area)
01:07:32 <AnMaster> alise, UK is tinier (tinyer?) in area afaik
01:08:33 <alise> i cannot speak because i am
01:08:40 <coppro> olsner: smaller than France, Germany, and Spain?
01:08:49 <coppro> err, you know what I mean
01:09:23 <calamari> okay it's official: I'm an idiot
01:09:36 <calamari> I really did have libc-2.7.so on my phone.. d'oh
01:10:12 <coppro> AnMaster: oh, stupid me, I'm bad at sphere projections
01:10:20 <olsner> coppro: I dunno, I don't dedicate storage for geography so that knowledge has already been purged
01:10:57 <alise> my geography allocation is 0 too
01:11:09 <coppro> AnMaster: I was thinking Sweden was significantly smaller due to the fact that spherical projection is hard
01:12:16 <AnMaster> checking my globe, Sweden is definitely longer than any of those countries
01:13:11 <AnMaster> I would suspect the area is smaller than France, but could be wrong
01:13:18 <AnMaster> due to the not easy to compare shapes
01:13:36 * Sgeo is considering store healthloss per unit time rather than updating HP
01:15:02 <olsner> why do we always end up discussing pointless things (like geography) here?
01:16:00 <pikhq> olsner: Clearly, we should replace the planet with a perfect sphere.
01:16:31 <olsner> pikhq: clearly, the shape of the planet is irrelevant
01:16:48 <pikhq> And have a constant population density.
01:17:12 <AnMaster> I'd hate to end up living in the sea
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01:17:39 <AnMaster> or do you propose a constant water density as well?
01:17:50 <pikhq> AnMaster: Water? On the surface? Who needs it?
01:17:57 <AnMaster> which would mean all sea, or perhaps marshes
01:18:11 <coppro> olsner: is it not esoteric enough?
01:18:28 <coppro> AnMaster: or we just amend the law of gravity
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01:18:42 <olsner> coppro: the shape of the planet? well, it's irrelevant!
01:19:17 <coppro> olsner: you seem to be under the misconception that there exist things too esoteric for this channel
01:19:29 <coppro> you are sadly mistaken
01:19:57 <olsner> I think I'm rather arguing there are things too mundane for this channel
01:21:54 <AnMaster> there are things off topic for this channel that we don't discuss
01:22:04 <AnMaster> since we would then discuss them
01:22:36 <olsner> what about the things off topic for this channel that we *do* discuss?
01:23:24 <AnMaster> actually I could mention one example, since it would be meta discussion
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01:23:57 <AnMaster> to the extent of my knowledge, we have, prior to this point at least, not have any significant discussion about gardening.
01:24:13 <AnMaster> that's just one of many examples
01:24:23 <olsner> good because it involves gardening
01:24:41 <olsner> are there any gardening-related esolangs around?
01:25:00 <olsner> something with search-*trees* and *pruning* perhaps?
01:25:01 <AnMaster> I will refuse to mention any more examples
01:25:22 <olsner> so in fact prolog is gardening-oriented programming
01:25:26 <AnMaster> olsner, you now need to pay license fee to oerjan
01:25:57 <olsner> AnMaster: as if! he's norwegian you know
01:26:10 <AnMaster> olsner, oh but your horrible puns...
01:26:49 <olsner> as always with puns, the horribler the better
01:27:54 <olsner> time to stop spewing nonsense and go to sleep anyway
01:27:56 <alise> 11:11:15 <oerjan> "many people prefer the look of AMS's \varnothing ... to that of LaTeX's \emptyset.
01:27:56 <alise> 11:11:18 <oerjan> "
01:27:59 <alise> many people are wrong
01:28:22 <Sgeo> These new earphones are suffering the same issue as all my others ;(
01:29:46 <AnMaster> only way to fix that is getting headphones
01:30:03 <AnMaster> falling out of ears? again same fix
01:30:36 <Sgeo> The wire breaks or something, and the sound only comes out of one ear unless I hold the wire just right
01:31:09 <AnMaster> Sgeo, be more careful with them then
01:31:21 <Sgeo> I had actual headphones once
01:31:21 <AnMaster> they tend to have thicker wire
01:31:25 <Sgeo> First ones to go
01:31:44 <Sgeo> These were noise-cancelling, don't know if that's good
01:31:53 <Sgeo> Not the current ones, the good ones
01:32:13 <pikhq> If the cord isn't replacable, it's probably too cheap.
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01:32:47 <olsner> hmm, was just about to spoil inception for y'all, but turns out I deleted that line instead of sending it
01:33:40 <alise> IT'S ABOUT RECURSION
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01:48:15 <Sgeo> "Not necessarily - lambdas would still be useful without closures."
01:48:30 <alise> Yeah, but he's wrong.
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02:15:04 <pikhq> ... Lambdas that *don't close*?
02:15:14 <pikhq> That's absolutely awful.
02:15:37 <pikhq> That's about C's level of support for it.
02:18:08 <alise> 11:53:14 <ais523> zzo38: do you think everyone should continue to support unsliced bread?
02:18:17 <alise> Fresh bread is usually unsliced.
02:18:28 <pikhq> Yes; a freshly baked loaf of bread is fucking delicious if done well.
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02:18:54 <alise> 13:30:15 <cpressey> Googling for Icoruma is an adventure!
02:19:01 <alise> if zzo38 says it, look on zzo38computer.cjb.net
02:19:19 <pikhq> Always good advice.
02:19:41 <Sgeo> When it says RPG rules, can that apply to computer RPGs?
02:20:17 <Sgeo> it's for typesetting RPG stuff, apparently
02:20:25 <pikhq> Also, I hate his website design.
02:20:29 <pikhq> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/magic.htm This is revolting.
02:20:53 <pikhq> (the menu I'm just fine with; I mean, it's just about plain text. Nothing fancy, but nothing awful either.)
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02:58:43 <coppro> pikhq: oh my, it truly is
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03:58:24 <oerjan> `addquote <AnMaster> cpressey, oh go to zzo's website. He is NIH <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, really? I was strongly under the impression that zzo was invented here.
03:58:36 <HackEgo> 205|<AnMaster> cpressey, oh go to zzo's website. He is NIH <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, really? I was strongly under the impression that zzo was invented here.
04:06:33 <Sgeo> I think I want to like Ruby
04:07:04 <Sgeo> But that's a far cry from actually liking Ruby
04:07:27 <oerjan> coppro: not invented here
04:10:57 * Sgeo considers eating his box of pasta for breakfast instead of dinner
04:12:32 <oerjan> if you eat'a the pasta that fast'a, it won't last'a
04:12:36 <Sgeo> Tonight I'll do both
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04:15:54 <oerjan> eek, bookmarks in the logs
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04:18:56 <Sgeo> AndChat| is not me.
04:19:20 <coppro> you don't cloak your host and they aren't close to the same
04:22:20 <Gregor> Well, if we don't know who it is, there's only one solution.
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04:22:53 <Gregor> Collateral damage! D-8
04:23:01 * oerjan might now have a slight inkling of clue
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05:10:24 <coppro> proof I am easily amused: I am watching a Futurama where the title caption was "scratch here to reveal prize"... so I did
05:13:09 <Sgeo> Note to self: Flush stderr after writing to it
05:13:32 <pikhq> Note to Sgeo; write to file descriptor 2 instead.
05:15:16 <pikhq> Screw buffered IO.
05:16:30 <coppro> Sgeo: stderr is not buffered by default; it shouldn't need flushing
05:16:46 <Sgeo> Then why did it not write?
05:16:54 <Sgeo> I redirected stderr to errors.txt
05:17:09 <Sgeo> Something happened that should have been written to Console.Error (which should be stderr), and...
05:17:37 <coppro> oh, what language is this?
05:19:10 <pikhq> Yeah, just kill yourself now.
05:23:40 <Gregor> Is Gregor ashamed to have recognized that?
05:23:45 <Gregor> Is Gregor going to rectify this?
05:24:09 <Gregor> http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=31300809&l=616aba37c8&id=1055580469 Is this the most epic picture ever taken?
05:24:24 <Sgeo> You could pretend that you knew it only because I've been working in C# for the last few months
05:24:46 <Gregor> I knew it only because /I've/ been working in C# for the last few months *sobs*
05:25:01 <Sgeo> It's not a terrible language
05:25:34 <pikhq> Sgeo: What, does .NET require a lobotomy?
05:26:06 <Gregor> .NET is a bad idea that sounds like a good idea, poorly executed in a way that makes it look well-executed :P
05:26:50 <Sgeo> I'd say useless idea more than bad
05:27:46 <Sgeo> Now, if Mono were up-to-snuff, it
05:27:56 <Sgeo> it'd be a different story, imo
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05:32:32 <Sgeo> "errors.txt is so brilliant"
05:49:45 * Sgeo is currently storing built binaries in version control
05:51:17 <oerjan> BUT BUT... THAT'S _EVIL_
05:51:44 <Sgeo> Why is it evil, and is there a less evil way?
05:51:53 <Sgeo> (I currently access the production server via RDP)
05:52:33 <Sgeo> The RDP thing is not my fault
05:52:51 <oerjan> YOU SEEM TO BE TAKING ME SERIOUSLY. WOULD YOU LIKE A LOBOTOMY TO FIX THIS?
05:53:21 <Sgeo> Two lobotomies total, yay! (The first was for .NET)
05:53:51 <oerjan> might be dangerous then, could run out of brain to remove
06:13:14 <Sgeo> "These vehicles are fast and cost nothing. Unfortunately, in a bold cost-cutting move, FV decided to go with the lowest bidder, Cheaps-R-Us, which tends to operate, well, below the radar. Exposure to these vehicles will hurt your HP, and eventually kill you."
06:13:31 <Sgeo> ^^my attempt at a bit of humor, and the idea of vehicles costing HP
06:16:01 <oerjan> basically they're dead cheap
06:17:26 <Sgeo> Ok, I want to be as creative as you
06:17:45 <Sgeo> Although these vehicles aren't quite cars
06:18:00 * oerjan just thought it needed a better pun
06:18:56 <Sgeo> http://i.imgur.com/sjr1I.jpg
06:21:18 <Sgeo> Not unless you go down a mountain quickly
06:22:27 <coppro> it's interesting how language conventions change over IRC
06:22:41 <oerjan> the picture's so dark i cannot tell if they're touching the ground
06:24:22 * oerjan seems to be out of creativity now
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06:24:38 <coppro> in particular, I've found it tends to model speech more closely
06:24:51 <coppro> such as putting question marks on questioning sentences, even if they aren't true questions
06:25:32 <Gregor> I strive to unify spoken and written English!
06:31:55 <pikhq> Argh; good luck making a standardised language that way.
06:32:02 <pikhq> English has ridiculously divergent accents.
06:48:53 <Sgeo> It's tough for me to tell in-world
06:49:00 <Sgeo> But I _think_ they're hovering a bit
06:50:45 <Sgeo> But you can't fly high into the sky with them
07:33:04 <Sgeo> Why doesn't OCaml have typeclasses?
07:34:52 <coppro> why doesn't everything have typeclasses?
07:35:09 <coppro> (/me is pretty sure that roles are the ultimate achievement in typing)
07:36:01 <Sgeo> I think I like how some things that would be syntax in some languages are.. user-defined, so to speak, in Ruby
07:36:09 <Sgeo> But I think Smalltalk takes that a lot further
07:40:12 <Sgeo> Huh. OCaml's ; is [very] roughly analogous to >>= as used in the IO monad, I think
07:40:56 <Sgeo> "; has type unit -> 'b -> 'b"
07:41:05 <coppro> Sgeo: also what do you mean by user-defined?
07:41:10 <Sgeo> Wait, if that's the case, then that means things are automatically coerced to unit?
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07:42:01 <Sgeo> coppro, as in, in Ruby, someiter.foreach do |x| stuff end
07:42:11 <Sgeo> Not sure if it's foreach or some other method
07:42:23 <Sgeo> But that's instead of a formal foreach construct, I think
07:42:30 <Sgeo> Or, well, usually used instead
07:42:49 <coppro> is it a magic function though?
07:42:52 <Sgeo> I think Smalltalk's if is similar
07:43:03 <Sgeo> coppro, I'm pretty sure it isn't
07:43:07 <coppro> or is it merely defined on the same terms as user code?
07:43:15 <coppro> (like a primitive type)
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07:43:21 <Sgeo> Um, might be built in, but user code could easily do the same thing, I think
07:43:23 <Sgeo> It's been a while
07:43:48 <coppro> Smalltalk's if I expect is a built-in
07:43:58 <coppro> since you need a conditional primitive somewhere
07:44:47 <Sgeo> But syntactically, it's just method calls, I think
07:45:00 <Sgeo> something ifTrue: stuff ifFalse: otherstuff I think. I may be mistaken
07:45:09 <Sgeo> It's been a bit of a while
07:46:36 <Sgeo> OCaml types look weird
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07:51:06 <coppro> ARGH MY GOVERNMENT IS SO FSCKING STUPID
07:52:17 <Sgeo> coppro, aren't you in Canada or something? Or am I completely and utterly mistaken?
07:52:30 <Sgeo> And no, I did not mean to imply that Canada is perfect
07:53:18 <coppro> oh, yes, I'm in Canada
07:53:29 <coppro> where the government is building a prison because of the alarming increase in unreported crime
07:54:40 <Sgeo> That... a) How would they know, and b) How is that useful?
07:55:01 <coppro> Sgeo: Statcan does surveys to estimate unreported crime rates
07:55:15 <coppro> the last one that's available was in '04
07:55:24 <coppro> and showed, I believe, and estimated 3% increase
07:55:31 <coppro> but that's not really relevant
07:55:41 <coppro> to the fact that YOU DON'T PUT UNREPORTED CRIMINALS IN PRISON
07:55:56 <coppro> SO WHY THE FUCK WOULD YOU NEED A PRISON BECAUSE UNREPORTED CRIME IS GOING UP
07:56:24 <Sgeo> Is object-orientedness really worth the nightmare syntax of OCaml?
07:58:08 <Sgeo> "Since you forgot to take into account your special value, you conclude that the mean age of visitors is 7 years old, and you employ web designers to remove all the long words and use primary colours everywhere."
07:58:43 <coppro> Sgeo: also, the minister behind this believes that surveys are useless after a year or two
07:58:59 <coppro> our government has been doing so much stuff that makes no sense this summer
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08:00:57 <Sgeo> "(note the code highlighted in red):"
08:01:03 -!- yiyus has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
08:01:04 <Sgeo> There IS no code hilighted in red!
08:01:05 -!- yiyus has joined.
08:01:08 <Sgeo> http://www.ocaml-tutorial.org/null_pointers,_asserts_and_warnings
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09:26:36 <Sgeo> I suppose there's no statically-typed Smalltalk, is there?
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09:30:34 <Sgeo> There's apparently something called Strongtalk
09:40:16 <Sgeo> I think I'll just relearn Smalltalk
09:50:54 <Sgeo> There's no way to make a general native app in Smalltalk, is there? I guess the concept doesn't really make sense
09:52:12 * Sgeo sort of stereotyped that as the Apple language :/
09:52:21 <Sgeo> Guess I should try it eventually, though
09:52:48 <Sgeo> But right now, after expunging my mind of the syntax horror that is OCaml, I'm obsessed with Smalltalk
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10:35:28 <coppro> or because something happened in between caffeine and my server
10:38:19 <Ilari> Fakequit by IRC server to change the host? :-)
10:41:15 <fizzie> jordan.freenode.net seems to have gone to sleep.
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10:42:25 * Sgeo decides to download Pharo
10:42:33 <Sgeo> Hm, 1.2 will contain an FFI
10:42:42 <Sgeo> Active Worlds bots in Smalltalk!
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10:46:05 * Sgeo vaguely wonders what a ProfStef is
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10:46:19 <Sgeo> If you are new to Smalltalk, we recommend you to do the integrated, interactive tutorial. To start it, evaluate the following expression (select the text -> right button -> do it):
10:47:08 <Sgeo> The UI looks OSX-like
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10:49:23 <Phantom_Hoover> When I was your age, you wrote your programs on a piece of paper and sent them off to London, where they would evaluate it and send it back in a month!
10:53:38 <Sgeo> Ok, I don't remember why I abandoned Smalltalk a while ago
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11:00:12 * Sgeo lols at ProfStef 17
11:00:20 <Sgeo> "Hey, you should not be here!"
11:00:34 <Sgeo> Also, 16 is the first time it asks you to write the code to go to the next lesson
11:04:48 <nooga> which ide do you use
11:06:19 <Sgeo> Although it's more than an IDE I guess
11:12:52 <nooga> why everything about Smalltalk is so colorful
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13:04:28 <Sgeo> "You typically only need to use or modify this class, or even know how it works, when making fundamental changes to how the Smalltalk system and language works."
13:04:32 <Sgeo> MWAHAHAHAHHAHA
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14:10:00 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: reading fnord about the sound of my head. i think this channel is a proof that ihope's set is universal. at least it makes updating my debian box
14:10:06 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
14:10:12 <fungot> Selected style: ic (INTERCAL manual)
14:10:21 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: the `while' inside one of these contexts.
14:17:14 <fungot> Selected style: speeches (misc. speeches from Project Gutenberg)
14:17:22 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: this trap was constructed on a new principle, of which, with the adventures of a certain bird known to fnord and fnord, john morley, and arthur fnord) were authors of books before they engaged in the slave fnord because slavery is not wrong, nothing is easier than i thought to come across the atlantic in fnord, the fnord
14:24:56 <fizzie> Speeches are a fnordy matter.
14:26:13 <fizzie> -fno-rd, to disable -frd.
14:31:49 <ais523> to allow the hyphens to be omitted when turning off options?
14:32:21 <fizzie> There are some alignment-related machine-specific options that start with "-malign", those also have nice names. Like the -malign-natural/-malign-power pair on PPC, and -malign-double on x86.
14:32:46 <fizzie> With -malign-double, GCC will be doubly malignant.
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14:35:40 <fizzie> Probably. It might also align doubles, long doubles and long longs on a qword boundary.
14:35:50 <fizzie> But that's in addition to the murdering.
14:36:03 <xz> /msg nickserv set kill quick
14:36:37 -!- xz has left (?).
14:37:44 <fizzie> I don't think there is such a setting; at least nickserv set's subhelp doesn't know it.
14:39:06 <fizzie> In the sense that the first 'x' will delete a character, and the z can start many commands.
14:42:55 <fizzie> I'm not sure how vi-compatible the z.* commands are, in Vim they mostly deal with folding, because (according to the manual) z looks like a folded piece of paper.
14:46:16 <ais523> in NetHack, xz swaps to the readied weapon, then zaps a wand
14:46:45 <fizzie> Nickserv help: "SET NEVEROP prevents others from adding you to channel access lists." That's a curious setting. Maybe useful if you feel permanently irresponsible?
14:48:09 <ais523> does that include the autoban setting on channel access lists?
14:48:23 <ais523> (just like you can set someone to be opped on join, or voiced on join, you can set them to be banned on join)
14:48:47 <fizzie> Right, some chanserv kickbannery command utilizes that automatically, I think.
14:49:22 <fizzie> I don't know, and I don't exactly feel like source-diving. If this were NetHack, one could be certain the devteam would have had thought of it, but...
14:50:10 <ais523> (I'm a reasonably experienced NetHack sourcediver)
14:50:37 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: meh, NetHack's source is just an intellectual challenge
14:50:49 <ais523> compare to DCSS's source, which makes me feel physically ill
14:51:00 <ais523> dungeon crawl stone soup
14:51:04 <ais523> one of NetHack's major competitors
14:51:47 <fizzie> Thought of the interaction of NEVEROP and bans-done-via-access-lists.
14:53:21 <ais523> you just read it and see things that have no right being in code ever
14:53:33 <ais523> I asked the DCSS devs about some of the stuff they'd found in the code
14:53:38 <ais523> and one of them had even found a for-case loop
14:54:09 <Phantom_Hoover> The code is 5 MB, so I won't be able to see it for a couple of minutes.
14:55:17 <fizzie> Atheme-services-5.2.3, modules/chanserv/flags.c: /* If NEVEROP is set, don't allow adding new entries except sole +b. Adding flags if the current level is +b counts as adding an entry. -- jilles */
14:56:09 <fizzie> I don't know which version freenode uses; the services info-page still speaks of hyperion-related customizations. Still, it's probably worky.
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15:12:58 <oerjan> <Sgeo> Wait, if that's the case, then that means things are automatically coerced to unit?
15:13:28 <ais523> that's how Algol does it
15:13:38 <ais523> in fact, there are two different ways to coerce a procedure to void
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15:13:58 <oerjan> iirc you're supposed to use the ignore : 'a -> unit function to make it explicit when you're ignoring a result. i'm not sure whether ocaml's ; gives an actual type error or a warning
15:14:01 <ais523> and five different coercion contexts, and a few extra rules, which determine how to do ambiguous coercions
15:16:03 <oerjan> !haskell do [1,2,3]; [1]
15:16:32 <ais523> that was a little unexpected
15:16:36 <oerjan> i think i've seen it discussed whether haskell do should have had the same semantics, or at least a warning
15:17:01 <oerjan> no that's exactly what the [] monad does
15:17:05 <ais523> I can never remember what >>= does for []
15:17:18 <oerjan> it's just that it maybe should do a warning for the same reason
15:17:29 <oerjan> well that's >> technically
15:17:39 <ais523> but >> is a special case of >>=
15:17:58 <ais523> !haskel do a=[1,2,3]; [a]
15:18:03 <ais523> !haskell do a=[1,2,3]; [a,a]
15:18:34 <ais523> hmm, it opened up a DCC chat with me just to say "parse error in pattern"
15:18:36 <ais523> and you're right, I do
15:18:43 <ais523> !haskell do a<-[1,2,3]; [a,a]
15:18:52 <ais523> yep, that's what I expected
15:18:59 <ais523> I just remembered what >>= did for lists
15:20:25 <fizzie> Ooh, a file:/// url link on a web-forum. "Here, take a look at this picture: file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/HP_Administrator/My%20Documents/My%20Pictures/..."
15:21:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Reminds me of the time I said "this big" and indicated with my hand when speaking over the phone.
15:21:15 <oerjan> do [1,2,3]; [1] is basically the same as do _ <- [1,2,3]; [1]
15:22:28 <ais523> I take it that link's to c:\ or something similar?
15:22:48 <ais523> standard response is along the lines of "I looked at it, but all I could see was porn"
15:22:59 <oerjan> it's pretty much in his private windows picture folder
15:23:20 <ais523> hmm, come to think of it, you could use file:// links for things that were probably on someone's computer
15:23:57 <ais523> say, a Debian user asks you "can you link me to a copy of the GPL?", and you go "file:///usr/share/common-licenses/GPL-2"
15:24:14 <ais523> and when they complain, say "well Debian policy doesn't let me use any other copy, it needs to be centralised to save on disk space"
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15:26:47 <oerjan> incidentally (>>) is almost equivalent to liftM2 (flip const)
15:27:08 <oerjan> (the "almost" is because the latter might be more likely to leak memory)
15:27:44 <ais523> isn't flip const equal to ignore?
15:27:52 <ais523> oh, not quite, wrong type
15:28:17 <oerjan> except that's not monadic of course
15:28:17 <ais523> const is k, which takes two arguments and returns the first
15:28:23 <ais523> whereas flip const takes two arguments and returns the second
15:28:57 <ais523> so I'll just point out that (const id) is shorter than (flip const)
15:28:58 <fizzie> ais523: It was to "c:/Documents and Settings/HP_Administrator/My Documents/My Pictures/..."; the user name is very telling, too.
15:29:03 <oerjan> so useless in haskell, you'd want liftM (const ())
15:29:15 <ais523> fizzie: ugh, XP filenames
15:29:51 <ais523> oerjan: I was talking about inside the lift
15:30:03 <ais523> (well, the liftM; stupid using "lift" to mean two unrelated things)
15:34:50 <oerjan> 23:46:36 <Sgeo> OCaml types look weird
15:34:50 <oerjan> 23:46:37 <Sgeo> int list?
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15:35:17 <oerjan> the order is ML legacy
15:36:23 <oerjan> <coppro> SO WHY THE FUCK WOULD YOU NEED A PRISON BECAUSE UNREPORTED CRIME IS GOING UP
15:36:47 <oerjan> maybe they think people would report more crimes if they thought the criminals might actually get put in jail :D
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15:41:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Are Linux syscalls guaranteed to leave registers like rdi and rsi alone on x86-64?
15:45:53 <fizzie> I couldn't find that explicitly stated in the documentation anywhere, but based on the syscall entry code, it seemed to me like it'd keep just about everything untouched.
15:46:24 <fizzie> rdi and rsi are the first two syscall arguments, though, aren't they?
15:47:28 <Phantom_Hoover> i.e. rax is the syscall, then rbx, rcx, rdx, rdi, rsi, rbp for the args/
15:48:07 <fizzie> rax is the number; the arguments go to rdi, rsi, rdx, r10, r8, r9, in that order. At least if you call via "syscall".
15:49:01 <fizzie> It's the same as a normal x86-64 function call, except rcx/r10; there was something special about rcx there.
15:49:27 <fizzie> I don't know; I haven't ever used int 0x80 with x86-64, since syscall exists and is supposedly better and faster.
15:50:52 <fizzie> What? No. It's an opcode.
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15:54:51 <fizzie> See this bit: http://www.google.com/codesearch/p?hl=en#YXaLobiZowM/trunk/kernel/linux-2.6.34/arch/x86/kernel/entry_64.S&l=424
15:56:07 <fizzie> It needs a bit digging as to whether it saves the argument registers or not; I seem to recall that it does, but it's a bit messy due to all those macros.
15:59:12 <fizzie> Discounting one very size-optimized stub, I haven't usually been relying on getting the syscall args back untouched.
16:02:03 <fizzie> The SAVE_ARGS bit might be the one that's responsible for keeping them safe.
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16:03:41 <fizzie> The syscall opcode itself kills rcx by stuffing the return address (next opcode) there.
16:04:17 <fizzie> And I guess r11 too, for saving rflags there.
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16:08:24 <cpressey> Well, in other news, I have built most of the type checker for Eightebed.
16:09:19 <cpressey> (Just the type checker, not the pointer validity checker yet.)
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16:10:29 <cpressey> It occurs to me that "proving Gregor wrong" is kind of a crappy reason to implement a medium-sized language. And that implementing a medium-sized language is a rather inefficient way to prove Gregor wrong. Still...
16:10:50 <ais523> in what way are you trying to prove him wrong?
16:11:09 <ais523> (I suppose I'll also allow the possibility of "her" there, in case both the name and the photos are lies)
16:11:27 <Gregor> Especially since I'm right :P
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16:12:12 <Gregor> ais523: I once got a correspondence that started "Dear Miss Richards:". I politely replied that "Gregor" is a male name. I got a reply that I should probably change the picture on my homepage then :P
16:12:32 <Gregor> Unfortunately, the picture on my homepage is chosen randomly, so I have no idea which was so suggestive.
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16:14:21 <Phantom_Hoover> You just *happened* to leave the second I said something to you!
16:14:32 <Gregor> My hats are UTTERLY MASCULINE.
16:14:46 <cpressey> ais523: (short version of Gregor's claim) If a language supports explicit free() it also needs to provide GC if it wants to be "safe" (doesn't let you dereference/execute something you didn't mean to.)
16:14:58 <Gregor> Uhhh, no. That's not my claim at all.
16:15:35 <Gregor> A language which provides a true explicit free() cannot be safe. To be safe a language must either never free (which is bad) or be GC'd. That is my claim.
16:15:50 <ais523> Gregor: what about something along the lines of Splint, but which actually works?
16:16:07 <ais523> that statically checks all mallocs/frees in the program before running it, to ensure no leaks and no dangling pointers?
16:16:47 <Gregor> ais523: Yay for impossible analysis and no modularity!
16:16:57 <Gregor> cpressey: By "true" I mean that you can get that memory back in a later malloc().
16:17:03 <Gregor> cpressey: So it actually frees it, and doesn't just ignore you.
16:17:38 <ais523> Gregor: Splint was modular enough
16:18:07 <ais523> and possible, because it relied on the programmer to provide it with a proof of memory safety, rather than trying to work it out itself and running up against the halting problem
16:18:09 <cpressey> Gregor: OK, that seems close to what I thought you meant, so I may simply have phrased my version badly. Lemme think
16:18:15 <ais523> but it was too buggy to succeed as its goals
16:18:43 <Gregor> ais523: By modular in this case I mean at LEAST separated compilation, if not dynamic loading. But also checking for proper malloc() and free() reduces to the halting problem so making that analysis general enough to write real programs seems enormously challenging at least.
16:19:22 <ais523> Gregor: separated compilation and dynamic linking would have worked fine
16:19:33 <ais523> it expanded the type system to give safety checks
16:19:48 <ais523> as I said, it was the programmer's responsibility to give the proof of safety, not splint's reponsibility to find one
16:20:35 <cpressey> Gregor: I think I was "factoring out" the possibility of "fake free()" in my version. Or if you like, add "true" to the part where I mention "free()" too.
16:20:41 <Gregor> Have fun writing an interpreter in that. "Will you free these objects?" "Uhh, I will if they stop being used by the underlying code, but since I have no idea what that's going to do, maybe?"
16:21:09 <ais523> Gregor: functions had to be deterministic about whether they freed or not
16:21:20 <ais523> it's OK to add everything to a global list, then free it all at the end
16:21:48 <Gregor> ais523: Awesome. You can't write an interpreter for a GC'd language. Sounds pro to me.
16:21:49 <ais523> presumably, you could free earlier if you knew the object wasn't being used (say it went out of scope and had a zero refcount)
16:22:12 <ais523> you can just do the GC yourself
16:22:19 <ais523> refcounting + loopbreaking would work fine, for instance
16:22:28 <ais523> even if that's a crazy GC architecture
16:22:59 <Gregor> Oh, well yeah, you can just treat malloc() as sbrk() and do everything yourself, I'm not being fair there X-P
16:23:27 <Gregor> The problem is that it's difficult to define what "correct" is in this space since a language in which you can't free at all is still A-OK :P
16:23:53 <Gregor> e.g. malloc() is implemented in terms of sbrk(), and on most systems there's no way to relinquish that back to the OS, and yet C code doesn't just bloat up to infinity.
16:24:23 <ais523> I thought implementing malloc in terms of sbrk was deprecated nowadays
16:24:37 <ais523> even though it is, or at least was, IIRC, the usual implementation strategy
16:24:38 <Gregor> It's not deprecated, it's just not part of the standard.
16:24:54 <Gregor> Basically the standard loosened to allow other implementations, but that's still the common one.
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16:36:07 <fizzie> German people apparently can't gender-map my first name (Heikki), because a place I once ordered a used laptop from keeps sending me their ads prefixed by "Frau Kallasjoki".
16:36:48 <Gregor> I don't know what I would guess with "Heikki"
16:36:54 <ais523> well, the Grand Prix driver with that name is male
16:36:58 <ais523> but that's only the one data point
16:36:59 <relet> "Heike" is a German female name.
16:37:16 <Gregor> Apparently in China "Gregor" reads as a female name :P
16:37:29 <Gregor> Or at least ambiguous enough to be overwhelmed by my feminine wiles.
16:39:52 <ais523> it's because most names ending -i are a ridiculous sort of abbreviation
16:39:58 <oerjan> also in norwegian, mostly
16:40:11 <ais523> that tend to be confined to a particular sort of stereotype, which only applies to women
16:40:52 <oerjan> and Heidi, though that's actually from german
16:44:14 <cpressey> We need more names that conflict with the Unix toolchain. "And these are my children, Diff and Sed!"
16:50:51 <cpressey> Complete tangent: I suppose it would be possible to have a completely name-based type system, that is, all types are given names by the user, and 2 types are equivalent iff they have the same name. Maybe?
16:51:12 <cpressey> We don't want USERS giving names to types, do we?
16:51:31 <ais523> make that the only form of I/O
16:51:56 <ais523> this is just blue skies esothinking
17:18:11 <relet> cpressey: and the operations will be "come here", "wash your hands", "spit that out"...
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17:52:01 * oerjan realizes for the first time that the back of his palate has a hole above it, he always assumed there would be bone there
17:52:03 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:52:47 <oerjan> which means it took me 40 years to discover something easily checked on my own body!
17:54:14 * oerjan only started picking there because his palate got a sore spot
17:54:50 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, I bet you don't know what your ear canal looks like.
17:55:21 <oerjan> but that _would_ seem to require special equipment
18:00:45 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
18:01:41 <oerjan> some nerd who thinks he knows mathematics just because he can recite 3 digits of pi ;D
18:02:19 <fizzie> oerjan: "Please don't make me add "rounding Pi down to three" to your list of crimes", like they say.
18:02:23 <oerjan> i'm sure there's a 4 in there somewhere, yes
18:02:52 <fizzie> 3.14159265...4 looks as if 4 would be the last digit.
18:02:58 * oerjan swats Phantom_Hoover -----###
18:03:48 <fizzie> I remember 3.14159265358979, but no more.
18:03:51 <oerjan> fizzie: now _that_ can be added to a list of crimes
18:04:05 -!- Gregor-P has joined.
18:04:50 <fizzie> That's one more, though.
18:05:05 <oerjan> except i think it's rounded up
18:05:10 <EgoBot> pi :: (Floating a) => a
18:05:19 <fizzie> It's not rounded; it goes 3.1415926535897932384626433832795028841968...
18:05:33 <fizzie> (That 8 there might be rounded, though. It was from bc, scale=40, a(1)*4.)
18:05:41 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i'm not sure EgoBot has any arbitrary precision floats (there _are_ packages for it)
18:05:56 <Gregor-P> !c #include <math.h>\nint main() { printf("%f", PI) }
18:06:13 <Gregor-P> !c #include <math.h>\nint main() { printf("%f", PI); return 0; }
18:06:21 <fizzie> It's M_PI, and it might not be defined by default, since it's not standard.
18:06:26 <oerjan> i _almost_ remember the 323. except somehow i thought it was 262 a moment ago
18:06:35 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i mean EgoBot's haskell
18:07:02 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, I thought it was GHC, like the rest of us use.
18:07:46 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: and that has nothing to do with what i am talking about, since the builtin types of ghc don't include arbitrary precision floats afaik
18:07:49 <fizzie> !run echo 'scale=100; a(1)*4;' | bc -l
18:08:17 <oerjan> by "packages" i mean on the hackage repository
18:09:00 <cpressey> Wait, you mean Haskell doesn't provide a *lazy* pi?
18:09:21 <oerjan> cpressey: it doesn't provide a lazy number type, by default
18:09:30 <fizzie> `run echo 'scale=100; a(1)*4;' | bc -l
18:09:38 <Gregor-P> cpressey: That's ... oh god lazy computable number *brain axplote*
18:09:55 <fizzie> Hm, no bc, quotation issues, something else?
18:09:58 <Deewiant> fizzie: That 68 there is wrong, it should go 7169...
18:10:03 <cpressey> oerjan: No excuse. It could provide it as a list of digits then.
18:10:17 <Gregor-P> How many ways can you run arbitrary code on Codu? 5? 6? :P
18:10:24 <cpressey> Gregor-P: And it needs to provide a lazy Chaitin's omega, as well, clearly.
18:10:48 <Gregor-P> cpressey: YES. Computability be damned :)
18:11:20 -!- HackEgo has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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18:11:23 -!- HackEgo has joined.
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18:11:26 <fizzie> Does it output stderr too, or just stdout?
18:11:33 <oerjan> cpressey: um a list of digits is just one possible implementation of a lazy number type
18:11:35 <HackEgo> /bin/bash: line 1: dc: command not found
18:11:46 <fizzie> Heh, well, that's more informative in any case.
18:12:09 <EgoBot> /usr/bin/dc: invalid option -- v
18:12:10 <cpressey> oerjan: Well yes. It would be better if Haskell provided lazy reals as a primitive type, obviously, but beggars can't be choosers.
18:12:29 <fizzie> !sh echo 'scale=100; a(1)*4;' | bc -l
18:12:29 <EgoBot> 3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375105820974944592307\
18:12:52 <fizzie> Well, that works, though bc line-wraps it. (The rest came with DCC chat, as usual.)
18:13:14 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
18:13:24 <fizzie> Deewiant: It might go wrong in the bottommost digits since the scale for a(1) is 40, and then I multiply that by 4.
18:13:30 <EgoBot> userinterps: Users can add interpreters written in any of the languages in !help languages. See !help addinterp, delinterp, show | !userinterps. List interpreters added with !addinterp.
18:13:41 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
18:13:52 <EgoBot> addinterp: !addinterp <name> <language> <code>. Add a new interpreter to EgoBot. This interpreter will be run once every time you type !<name> <subcode>, and receive the program code as input.
18:14:12 <oerjan> !haskell :t Data.Number.CReal.showCReal
18:14:39 <EgoBot> Interpreter pi installed.
18:14:56 <EgoBot> There is already an interpreter for pi!
18:15:04 <EgoBot> Interpreter pi deleted.
18:15:15 <EgoBot> Interpreter pi installed.
18:15:39 <Gregor-P> Uh, pretty sure !haskell IS ghci
18:15:45 <EgoBot> Interpreter pi deleted.
18:15:57 <oerjan> !haskell :t "Yes it is"
18:16:00 <Gregor-P> Phantom_Hoover: They are the input.
18:16:59 <EgoBot> Interpreter pi installed.
18:17:39 <fizzie> Gregor-P: Isn't it just https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/index.cgi/file/1fe97d50a1d8/multibot_cmds/interps/ghc/runghc ?
18:18:20 <Sgeo> Any reason not to like Smalltalk?
18:18:21 <EgoBot> Interpreter pi deleted.
18:19:06 -!- Flonk has joined.
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18:19:43 <Gregor-W> Sgeo: Because Smalltalk killed my family.
18:20:19 <oerjan> in a horrible, yet classy way
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18:21:59 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Something like: if [ -n "$p" ]; then echo $p; else echo 0; fi
18:22:00 <Phantom_Hoover> !addinterp pi sh read p; if [ "x$p" = "x" ]; then p=0; fi; echo 'scale=$p; a(1)*4;' | bc -l
18:22:00 <EgoBot> Interpreter pi installed.
18:22:11 <EgoBot> (standard_in) 1: illegal character: $
18:22:21 <EgoBot> Interpreter pi deleted.
18:22:30 <Phantom_Hoover> !addinterp pi sh read p; if [ "x$p" = "x" ]; then p=0; fi; echo "scale=$p; a(1)*4;" | bc -l
18:22:30 <EgoBot> Interpreter pi installed.
18:22:44 <Gregor-W> Phantom_Hoover: Y'know you can do this in a /query, right? :P
18:22:48 <EgoBot> 3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375105820974944592307\
18:23:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor-W, /query? I assume that's some black IRC magic.
18:23:38 <fizzie> Gregor-W: Do both EgoBot and HackEgo speak to query? I've always wondered, but never dared to try it out, just in case they'd take offence at unsolicited private messaging.
18:24:07 <Gregor-W> Phantom_Hoover: /query opens a PM window with a user :P
18:24:42 <Gregor-W> fizzie: They do not take offense, and enjoy private conversation. Do not be offended if they start getting overly personal, although their sex drives are quite powerful they are incapable of actually acting on it and so you have nothing to fear.
18:25:19 <Gregor-W> I need to merge EgoBot, HackEgo and Hackiki into one lean, mean, arbitrary-code-runnin' machine.
18:26:54 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: You could consider piping the bc output to | tr -d '\n\\' so that it all ends up in one row. (Though that would, I guess, limit you to IRC's maximum line length...)
18:28:13 <EgoBot> 3.1415926535897932384626433832795028841971693993751058209749445923078164062862089986280348253421170679821480865132823066470938446095505822317253594081284811174502841027019385211055596446229489549303819644288109756659334461284756482337867831652712019091456485669234603486104543266482133936072602491412737245870066063155881748815209209628292540917153643678925903600113305305488204665213841469519415116094330572703657595919530921861173819326117931051185480744
18:28:40 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Come to think of it, instead do export BC_LINE_LENGTH=490 before the command, that way it'll be long but still continue if it wouldn't fit on a IRC-line.
18:30:56 <fizzie> !sh echo limits | bc | tr '\n' ' '
18:30:57 <EgoBot> BC_BASE_MAX = 2147483647 BC_DIM_MAX = 16777215 BC_SCALE_MAX = 2147483647 BC_STRING_MAX = 2147483647 MAX Exponent = 9223372036854775807 Number of vars = 32767
18:31:09 <fizzie> It will only go up to 2147483647, it seems.
18:31:17 <fizzie> Well, it's more than eleven.
18:31:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Right, now it annoys you through DCC if you ask it for a billion digits.
18:31:45 -!- jcp has quit (Quit: Later).
18:32:16 * Phantom_Hoover then has to try doing it on his own computer with a billion digits.
18:32:21 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
18:32:31 <fizzie> As far as pi computation goes, I don't think bc a(1)*4 is very much on the efficient end of the spectrum.
18:32:44 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
18:35:11 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/EbcM -- not the fastest thing in the west.
18:37:21 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: another motive induces me to put the judgment of history, and to tear from the populace a single favourite.
18:37:43 <fizzie> Yes, due to too many bot-loops.
18:38:02 <fungot> ^(EgoBot|HackEgo|toBogE)
18:38:07 <fizzie> That's the current list of it.
18:38:37 <oerjan> EgoBot's evil twin, obviously
18:38:41 <fizzie> I don't recall; based on the name only, it may have been another EgoBot instance.
18:39:34 <oerjan> i don't think it was his bot
18:39:37 <fizzie> Apparently ran by immibis.
18:39:45 <fizzie> (Based on a quick grep.)
18:40:02 <oerjan> yeah you'd definitely want to ignore that >:D
18:40:39 -!- Gregor-W has quit (Quit: Page closed).
18:40:53 <oerjan> a guy who liked to do verbose things with bots
18:41:08 <fizzie> "This is my user page. I created RubE_On_Conveyor_Belts and MailBox (page coming soon). I will occasionally come on irc.freenode.net #esoteric."
18:41:10 <oerjan> hasn't seen him for a while
18:41:52 <Gregor-P> Anywho, if I merged my bots, you could upload some code to the Esolangs Hackiki for an esolang, then run it here :)
18:41:54 * oerjan didn't even notice that
18:42:34 <fizzie> I've seen 'im last 2010-01-31 quitting with the message [Quit: #dsdev on irc.blitzed.org exists], but it might not be relevant to the prolonged silence.
18:43:11 <cpressey> Gregor-P: I imagine you could install [eso]interpreters written in arbitrary languages, instead of just the 'n' that EgoBot currently provides?
18:43:47 <Gregor-P> Without bugging me to update EgoBot's hg :)
18:45:34 <Gregor-P> Plus, I'd only have one bot on #esoteric X-P
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18:50:05 <pikhq> Gregor-P: And access Hackiki articles here. :P
18:50:51 <Gregor-P> Well, except that people are clamoring for Hackiki as an adjunct, not a primary.
18:51:55 <Gregor-P> Having no Hackiki is also a workable model :P
18:55:54 <cpressey> Fun fact! THERE ARE NO FUN FACTS.
18:56:34 <cpressey> ALL FACTS ARE DEAD SERIOUS, AND MOST ARE PAINFUL TOO.
18:58:41 <pikhq> cpressey: Good news everybody! I have eliminated all fun facts!
18:59:41 -!- jcp has joined.
18:59:58 <oerjan> fun fact n = if n<=1 then 1 else n * fact(n-1)
19:11:26 <oerjan> my work here is outdone.
19:12:20 * oerjan mostly copied that from some SML link
19:17:32 -!- Flonk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:49:56 <oerjan> well are you sure that you're really _you_ who are being driven crazy?
19:50:47 <oerjan> ok, then, are you sure that you're really _you_ who are being driven "crazy", figuratively?
19:51:44 <oerjan> hey it was you that started it
19:55:46 <oerjan> well you could be a cow, with those hooves
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20:14:36 * Sgeo decides that it's better to get to the root cause of a bug than to just slap a if (whatever != null) in front of a line
20:18:46 <fizzie> if (whatever == null) whatever = malloc(4096); /* here's some bytes for you */
20:19:16 <fizzie> (Lowercase-"null" sounds non-C, though.)
20:19:41 <cpressey> now you don't need to check if whatever is null anymore!!!
20:21:23 <oerjan> instead you can turn a new page
20:23:08 -!- Flonk has joined.
20:23:30 * oerjan forgets everything Phantom_Hoover has ever said
20:23:36 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
20:24:37 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: The "top" I have here has a nifty quick-access thing that "M" makes it sort by the "%MEM" column.
20:25:01 <Sgeo> true ifTrue: [ Transcript show: 'Hi #esoteric!' ]
20:25:19 * Sgeo wonders if Smalltalk would be a decent first language
20:26:16 <fizzie> Also, if you press "B" it bolds the current sort column, and then you can use < and > to move it left and right.
20:26:33 * Phantom_Hoover wonders if x86-64 assembly would be a decent first language.
20:28:19 <cpressey> Sgeo: Alan Kay wondered that too!
20:29:11 <Sgeo> The one thing I dislike about Smalltalk is how casually stuff adds methods to root object classes
20:29:27 <Sgeo> With no namespace stuff, so potential for collision is rather high
20:30:09 <fizzie> Yes, it should be so that only the High Clergy is allowed to access the Holiest of Objects.
20:30:12 <cpressey> Ruby can suffer from that too.
20:33:42 <cpressey> The thing I don't like about Smalltalk is its syntax.
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20:39:07 <Sgeo> Funny, that's what I hate about Ruby
20:39:18 <Sgeo> [And how non-unified it is. Magical blocks?
20:39:40 <cpressey> Oh, I hate that Ruby is non-unified too.
20:40:01 <Sgeo> I think I may have used the wrong phrase
20:40:18 <cpressey> I think I caught what you mean anyway.
20:40:57 <cpressey> It and Perl both belong to the "Magic is GOOD!" school...
20:41:14 <cpressey> (So does Python, but Python's in denial.)
20:42:03 <Sgeo> I'm kind of wondering what pro-magic stuff is like
20:42:24 <cpressey> Sparkly, special magic that makes everything NEAT!!!
20:42:39 <Sgeo> But having blocks not be objects? Really?
20:42:45 <Sgeo> Some weird yield keyword to get to blocks?
20:44:47 <cpressey> I thought the block thing was just a funny syntax for passing a lambda to something.
20:45:22 <Sgeo> It... is, except they're not objects
20:45:29 <Sgeo> Unless the receiver receives it as an object
20:45:36 <Sgeo> And you can only pass one block to a method
20:45:53 <Sgeo> Or, well, one block as a block. You can objectify blocks, but that's not normally how things are done
20:45:55 <cpressey> What else could the receiver receive it as?
20:46:31 <Sgeo> A ... thing detectable somehow [forgot how] and called with the yield keyword
20:46:44 <Sgeo> That's the normal way of doing it
20:48:08 <cpressey> Magic sugar to make the magic chainsaw pretty! Whee!
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20:50:57 <cpressey> Oh, here's more definition fun like yesterday's reddit comment: "Blocks, Procs and lambdas (referred to as closures in Computer Science) are one of the most powerful aspects of Ruby, and also one of the most misunderstood." http://www.robertsosinski.com/2008/12/21/understanding-ruby-blocks-procs-and-lambdas/
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20:53:26 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, the closure-lambda confusion is actually pretty understandable.
20:54:03 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Agreed. Most because closures are a way to implement lambdas.
20:54:53 <pikhq> How odd. I could've sworn CS called them "lambda expressions" or "anonymous functions".
20:55:10 <pikhq> With the obvious caveat that they do, in some manner, close over their environment.
20:56:33 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, not if your lambda syntax for some reason allows an option to not be a closure
20:56:43 <Sgeo> Someone should make an esolang that does that!
20:56:50 <Sgeo> ^^another thing I always say
20:57:58 <cpressey> I tend to regard "lambda" as jargon, and tend to prefer "function value" (which is flexible enough to be applied to either syntax or semantics, if it's clear from context.)
20:58:22 <pikhq> Sgeo: You list the variables, if any, that you close over.
20:58:34 <pikhq> And in what manner (references or copies)
21:00:31 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, "lambda" is much easier to type than "anonymous function", though.
21:01:08 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
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21:01:59 * Sgeo feels free to :p at anyone who suggests that all lambdas are closures
21:09:21 <olsner> all squiggles are squiggles
21:11:34 <Sgeo> Power is power.
21:13:31 <Gregor-P> Women is women, but MEN is men!
21:16:58 -!- alise has joined.
21:17:03 <Phantom_Hoover> "Two of most useful items in the game are: a magic marker and a can of grease. Both are disgustingly uncommon. *
21:17:03 <Phantom_Hoover> The most useful item in the game is easily a Wand of Wishing. Which you will then use to wish for grease and magic markers." -- The TV Tropes Wiki page on NetHack.
21:21:07 <alise> The atheist "OUT" campaign logo, FSM, ACLU, EFF, FIJA, Kopimi, pirate logo from The Pirate Bay, LGBT rainbow, NORML.
21:21:18 <alise> This is the most stereotypical Internet logo-sidebar ever.
21:21:58 <Sgeo> alise, we were just talking about you
21:22:30 <alise> Am I the Paris Hilton kind of celebrity or the Brain Cox kind of celebrity?
21:24:06 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: only the coolest particle physicist slash pop musician slash pop-science TV presenter ever
21:24:16 <alise> also, the only one.
21:24:47 <Sgeo> Is there a name for "Brain Cox after people believe he made a mistake"?
21:25:14 * cpressey is now tragically confused and wants to hurt you all, you all
21:25:50 <alise> cpressey: tl;dr in the UK we have a handful of celebrities who are intelligent and awesome
21:25:52 <Sgeo> Since when did you stop logreading?
21:26:15 <alise> when talking to people outside britain we usually use the words "national treasure" to convey this.
21:26:22 <fizzie> Wolfram Alpha, "mass of sun in bananas" => input interpretation "banana | amount | 1 banana", and then a "nutrition facts" table with e.g. 6.562*10^24 metric tons of fat; but nowhere it mentions the sun any more.
21:26:25 <alise> Sgeo: I do it while chatting.
21:26:41 <alise> fizzie: I would like those bananas, please.
21:26:58 <fizzie> It's a solar banana, I guess.
21:30:53 <nooga> alise: your best celebrity is Richard Clarkson, period
21:31:06 * Sgeo <3 Terry Pratchett
21:31:46 <alise> Clarkson is a pig; an amusing pig, but a pig.
21:31:54 <alise> A Conservative, global-warming-denying pig.
21:33:11 <Sgeo> Jeremy Clockson?
21:33:58 <nooga> of PINK FLOYD !11!
21:34:21 <cpressey> OK, I guess I have heard of Terry Pratt.
21:35:03 <Sgeo> Fortunately for you, Jeremy Clockson is fictional
21:35:29 <nooga> you son of a clock!
21:35:32 <alise> David Gilmour is ... very dull.
21:36:04 <nooga> but i like it when he plays
21:36:59 <cpressey> Been a while since I wrote anything that wasn't an interpreter
21:37:35 <cpressey> nooga: My way of telling Gregor he is wrong, wrong, WRONG
21:38:15 <cpressey> Oh, something to do with GC or something. One sec
21:38:31 <olsner> oh, is eightebed the one with safe pointers?
21:38:42 <Gregor-P> The only problem being that I'm right, right, RIGHT
21:38:59 <nooga> alise: tried MacRuby ?
21:39:10 <alise> nooga: a long time ago.
21:39:20 <alise> nooga: how is it not utterly boring?
21:39:26 <cpressey> olsner: Yes. And dancing beagles, if you're lucky
21:39:48 <olsner> sweet! I love dancing beagles!
21:40:03 <nooga> it compiles ruby to llvm and then llvm emits native code
21:40:06 <cpressey> nooga: "A language which provides a true explicit free() cannot be safe. (By "true" I mean that you can get that memory back in a later malloc().) To be safe a language must either never free (which is bad) or be GC'd." -- Gregor's claim
21:40:33 <nooga> alise: it's enormously fast compared to mri and other implementations
21:40:47 <coppro> Gregor-P: what's the reason for that claim?
21:40:54 <alise> nooga: Great. A quick way to run a language so boring it makes me want to aestivate.
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21:41:06 <alise> That only runs on a rather naff proprietary operating system.
21:41:10 <Gregor-W> Just to be perfectly clear, I am only referring to C-like languages :P
21:41:18 <cpressey> alise: Ruby, boring? Magic sugar chainsaw language, BORING???
21:41:21 <nooga> i thought you like roby
21:41:27 <nooga> that's why i asked you
21:41:48 <alise> nooga: that was in a past life, one filled with a lot more gradients and drop shadows
21:41:50 <cpressey> Great, now Gregor can say Eightebed proves nothing because it's not sufficiently "C-like"
21:41:54 <Gregor-W> Which is to say, imperative languages with pointers at arbitrary data, where safety is defined as not seeing that data as a different type.
21:42:35 * cpressey was feeling like Sisyphus there for a sec
21:42:50 <Gregor-W> cpressey: I have further-specified all my horribly-ambiguous claims ;)
21:43:31 <Gregor-W> coppro: And here is my reasoning: If you can relinquish memory to the system then reallocate it, you can alias that under two types, since detecting whether a reference is still in use statically is equivalent to the halting problem.
21:44:00 <alise> Flergh, why do languages suck?
21:44:00 <Gregor-W> And if you can alias it under two types, then of course you can write one type and read another, causing the universe to explode ^^
21:44:20 <coppro> Gregor-W: that assumes that the memory is returned unchanged
21:44:38 <Gregor-W> coppro: No it doesn't, you'll still have two references to it. You just need to write through one and read through another even if it's reinited.
21:44:43 <alise> nooga: all of them
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21:45:11 <coppro> Gregor-W: ah, I see what you mean
21:45:12 <cpressey> alise: Actually languages are very good, all languages, I find people who can;t get their punctuation right! Believe this.
21:45:12 <Sgeo> alise, I've fallen in love with Smalltalk, I think
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21:45:18 <Gregor-W> int **a = /* allocate */; dostuff(a) /* I don't know that dostuff will free a */; int *b = /* allocate */; *b = whatever; **a /*boom*/;
21:45:29 <alise> Sgeo: I see. It is flawed.
21:45:41 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: no, it really does suck
21:45:46 <Gregor-W> alise: Your reasoning is pretty awesome X-D
21:45:47 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: name a good language
21:45:53 <Sgeo> alise, besides the commonality of un-namespaced methods being added to core objects on a regular basis, what's wrong with it?
21:45:57 <Gregor-W> Why can't I stop falling in love with flawed languages? D-'8
21:46:06 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, are you saying that there are no good languages?
21:46:10 <alise> Gregor-W: you require a lobotomy
21:46:20 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: ones you can actually use, at least
21:46:52 <Sgeo> alise, what are Smalltalk's flaws?
21:46:55 <alise> yeah but haskell is one of the most disappointing languages
21:46:58 <alise> in potential vs reality
21:47:09 <Gregor-W> 1) It is not sufficiently spicy.
21:47:28 <Gregor-W> 2) When you serialize its environment and print it out, it takes too many pages.
21:47:34 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: a language "recognisably similar to", "of the same strain as" Haskell could have been truly epically amazing
21:47:41 <alise> Haskell itself is ... good, but, you know.
21:47:47 <alise> Not /holy shit fucking awesome cakes/.
21:48:00 <Gregor-W> 3) Any language with "Small" in it threatens my masculinity.
21:48:14 <Gregor-W> 4) Any language with "talk" in it threatens my masculinity.
21:48:16 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: No, I really am.
21:48:32 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I am saying that Haskell had, before it was made concrete, /huge potential/
21:48:39 <alise> I am saying that it disappoints, based on this potential.
21:49:01 <nooga> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EO472qM6M9g
21:49:08 <nooga> wha... i don't even...
21:49:36 <cpressey> Haskell code is often just as hard to read as Perl. And usually harder to understand.
21:49:41 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: i've seen the seeds of development that create languages so much less disappointing and in the vein of haskell
21:49:56 <alise> yes, they are usually quite impractical (dependently-typed programming hasn't been worked out yet), but ...
21:49:58 <alise> you know what, fuck it
21:50:06 <alise> just because you did a good job doesn't mean you created something excellent
21:50:10 <nooga> alise: if all languages suck...
21:50:23 <alise> retarded kids can try really hard and do a really excellent job and produce a piece of paper with the letter A on it, that is not amazing
21:50:51 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: type system has too many special features to handle things like typeclasses, etc., requires extensions which can't be inferred and make stuff blargh to be useful ...
21:50:57 <alise> syntactical quirks
21:50:59 <alise> bad standard library
21:50:59 <Sgeo> I'm still curious about Smalltalk's flaws
21:51:18 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: no, really, haskell sucks compared to what languages could be, we just all have terrible standards
21:51:39 <alise> and i am fucking tired
21:51:54 <nooga> alise: is it even possible to create a language that does not suck? in your opinion
21:52:08 <Sgeo> alise, I've heard that it's bad to put built binaries in version control, but why
21:52:20 <cpressey> Sir, I submit to you that a flying machine is a physical impossibility.
21:52:36 <alise> i defer to cpressey
21:52:53 <alise> Sgeo: version control systems mostly suck at binaries, they could be out of date, it's generally pointless
21:52:59 <alise> and they mostly suck at binaries.
21:53:23 <Gregor-W> Hackiki has binaries in its VCS ... but then it's not really being used as a VCS X-P
21:53:33 <Gregor-W> (Well, the Plof Hackiki does anyway)
21:53:34 <Sgeo> Meh, have any better way for me to get the stuff to the host given that I only have RDP access?
21:54:11 <nooga> i think of languages as tools, there is no holy grail of languages
21:54:29 <nooga> i use mainly ruby and C
21:54:48 <alise> no, but there is shit significantly better than we have
21:54:57 <olsner> even if there's no holy grail, that doesn't mean cups of crap is ok
21:55:17 <Gregor-W> `addquote <nooga> i think of languages as tools, there is no holy grail of languages <olsner> even if there's no holy grail, that doesn't mean cups of crap is ok
21:55:24 <HackEgo> 206|<nooga> i think of languages as tools, there is no holy grail of languages <olsner> even if there's no holy grail, that doesn't mean cups of crap is ok
21:55:43 <alise> Gregor-W: TWO SPACES BETWEEN MESSAGES
21:56:15 <nooga> it's like you guys deny whole history of computing
21:56:25 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: why does no-one use the diaeresis?
21:56:27 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: They're too busy making lolcats on icanhazcheeseburger.com
21:56:31 <alise> nooga: you mean, things slowly, steadily improving?
21:57:21 <nooga> "modern cars are shitty, every single one of them - you can crash, they don't teleport and you have to know how to drive"
21:57:26 <alise> People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it..
21:57:50 <nooga> but shit, i've seen beatuful cars, fast cars, comfortable cars, usable cars
21:57:54 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: nooga is.
21:57:57 <alise> nooga: you know, innovation is possible and happens.
21:58:07 <alise> nooga: and there is significant evidence of the possibility of good languages
21:58:17 <alise> and it can easily be seen how technology has been held back if you study it a bit
21:58:30 <nooga> but complaining about current state without active search for future solutions
21:58:33 <alise> cars have been around since pick a date according to your definition of car
21:58:37 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, so then why has noöne made one? It's not like making a car; you only need a computer, intelligence and time.
21:58:37 <alise> computers are new and people suck at them
21:58:43 <alise> nooga: guess what? Just because we whine about it doesn't mean we aren't looking.
21:58:51 <alise> Even cpressey is, in his own way.
21:59:18 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Why hasn't anyone formulated the Grand Unified Theory yet? It's not like making a car; you only need pen, paper, intelligence and time.
21:59:48 <nooga> maybe human brain is too small for that :F
21:59:52 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, there isn't really any evidence that one of them exists, but you act like there must obviously be a perfect language.
22:00:00 <alise> besides, people have made /better/ languages, it's just that today's /ecosystems/ like operating systems etc. aren't very friendly to them
22:00:14 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: <nooga> i think of languages as tools, there is no holy grail of languages <alise> no, but there is shit significantly better than we have
22:00:27 <alise> is your definition of "acting", "explicitly denies"?
22:02:00 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: wait, you are actually saying that it's not obvious a better language exists than the ones we use today?
22:02:06 <nooga> so what are the properties of language better than existing ones?
22:02:19 <alise> fucking hell, you like Lisp; people who do day-to-day programming, C and shit, they have no idea about Lisp
22:02:34 <alise> is it so hard to imagine a better language that is unknown like Lisp and impractical in today's world in the same ways as Lisp?
22:02:40 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: we have Epigram, too
22:04:19 <alise> of course it's almost entirely theoretical because nobody wants to bother making a practical language because it's hard and nobody gives you any support or thanks, just "and how can I HTTP synergise with this?"
22:04:29 <alise> thus modern academic language design.
22:05:17 <nooga> you can't write a modern OS using some heavily math based language
22:05:18 <alise> care to qualify that awful? say, give it an object to indicate what is awful?
22:05:32 <alise> "of course it's almost entirely theoretical because nobody wants to bother making a practical language because it's hard and nobody gives you any support or thanks"
22:05:35 <nooga> but it would be worse than selfdestruction
22:06:02 <nooga> imagine if Solaris was written in Haskell
22:06:08 <nooga> that's what i call fail
22:06:16 <alise> That's what I call fail.
22:06:17 <Phantom_Hoover> nooga, do you seriously think "good" = "you can write an OS in it"?
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22:06:36 <nooga> but i still think that languages are tools
22:06:51 <Phantom_Hoover> nooga, AND ACADEMIC LANGUAGES AREN'T TOOLS FOR OS DESIGN
22:06:54 <nooga> you need hamer? use hammer. you need scalpel? use scalpel
22:07:47 <Phantom_Hoover> nooga, so how does it reflect badly on Haskell that you couldn't write an OS in it?
22:07:57 <alise> We don't have good non-academic languages because CREATING GOOD PRACTICAL LANGUAGES JUST GETS YOU INSULTS, FLAMES AND NO BENEFIT WHATSOEVER
22:08:10 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: It has been done (for some definitions of "OS").
22:08:10 <alise> at least ACADEMIC languages are RESPECTED and get you *ACADEMIC CREDIT*
22:08:14 <Sgeo> I still don't see what's so bad about Smalltalk :/
22:08:25 <alise> this is a SELF PERPETUATING PROBLEM caused by the IDIOCY of today's computing and it is /everyone's fucking fault/.
22:08:38 <alise> Sgeo: Phantom_Hoover is wrong :P
22:08:41 <alise> Smalltalk is pretty damn good
22:08:46 <alise> I just have doubts about OOP in general
22:08:49 <alise> and ... imperative programming
22:08:51 <pikhq> Sgeo: It's a damned lot better than many other OO-type languages. However, it does have flaws.
22:09:15 <pikhq> For now at least, I'd consider it the example of how to do OO right.
22:09:29 <Sgeo> I still want to know what those flaws are :/
22:09:31 <pikhq> (not because it can't be better, but because just about everything else is *worse*)
22:09:43 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, did the designers of Haskell get flamed and insulted?
22:10:05 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Didn't when it was purely academic. It does now.
22:10:10 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Uh ... yeah, Haskell is regularly insulted. The only reason the designers didn't take it and the fans now do, is because it was /originally a highly academic language/.
22:10:36 <alise> Then it became popular and people started writing bad libraries and crap in it, giving it bad package management tools, flooding the channel with bullshit, and then everyone else pointed and laughed.
22:10:52 <pikhq> Sgeo: The syntax is irritating, it's dynamically typed, and it's dynamically typed.
22:10:53 <alise> Thus demonstrating the immense worthwhileness of creating a good, practical language.
22:10:55 <nooga> I've met Phil Wadler in Edinburgh!
22:10:57 <alise> Immense meaning "0".
22:11:01 <pikhq> (dynamic typing is that much of a failure)
22:11:09 <nooga> he said 'hi' to me
22:11:10 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: yeah, but some haskell code /really, truly/ misunderstands what haskell is. an awful lot of it
22:11:17 <alise> pikhq: Smalltalk's syntax is fine, dammit.
22:11:31 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, that's because you can't have an idiot detector in the compiler.
22:11:41 <pikhq> alise: Okay, fine. s/The syntax is irritating/It's dynamically typed/
22:11:46 <Sgeo> Transcript show: 'I can survive this.'; cr.
22:11:50 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: how about we agree that you ignore that part of the sentence
22:11:52 <nooga> ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Wadler )
22:11:53 <alise> and read the rest of it
22:12:29 <Sgeo> So what are statically-typed Smalltalk-like languages?
22:12:43 <alise> Sgeo: Strongtalk, I think had something ... maybe ... but basically nothing ...
22:12:47 <cpressey> nooga: Oh, the dude who compared monads to a solution to Descartes' mind-body problem?
22:13:18 <alise> cpressey: Hey, Wadler is awesome. Just ... not that specific thing.
22:13:32 <cpressey> nooga: Better put him back in his cage then.
22:13:35 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I don't get why people writing bad libraries will stop with a better language, though. Which seems from here to be your point.
22:13:37 <pikhq> It also amazes me the people that think that pretty much anything functional is "magic".
22:14:19 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I thought we agreed to ignore that part?
22:14:30 <alise> <alise> Then it became popular XXXXX, giving it bad package management tools, flooding the channel with bullshit, and then everyone else pointed and laughed.
22:14:41 <alise> Tada, no more things about libraries for you to complain about.
22:14:56 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, OK, so your point is that people started laughing when the idiots came.
22:15:06 <nooga> eh, i used bad word
22:15:11 <alise> My point is it became popular then people started laughing.
22:15:15 <alise> The idiots were just a side note.
22:15:21 <alise> Fucking hell, I'm insanely tired, cut me slack.
22:15:38 <nooga> i mean't 'cool' but 'loose' is exact translation from PL
22:16:12 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: because it became popular
22:16:16 <alise> it had to synergise HTTP.
22:16:21 <alise> what are these monads? In enterprise we do not use monads!
22:16:28 <alise> You innovate, but how does this interact with RUBY?
22:16:39 <alise> Ha ha ha, all this mathematical masturbation. How does it help me drive my toaster?
22:16:58 * Sgeo wonders what a compromise between static and dynamic typing might look like
22:17:05 <Sgeo> Something that allows safety and flexibility
22:17:14 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, but surely your view of a better language would be more mathematical than Haskell?
22:17:33 <nooga> pikhq: that's what I fear
22:17:36 <Sgeo> Maybe something similar, but not identical, to OCaml's and Scala's statically-typed duck-typing-like thing?
22:18:04 <olsner> could you apply lazy evaluation to the type system and do lazy type-checking?
22:18:34 <pikhq> olsner: Yes but *wince*
22:18:41 <Sgeo> Grr at http://www.pharo-project.org/home
22:18:44 <Sgeo> erm, wrong link
22:18:49 <Sgeo> Grr at http://www.smalltalk.org/articles/article_20041002_a1.html
22:19:09 <Sgeo> They imply that that fault is static type checking's fault, when it's a fault with that particular type system
22:19:20 <Sgeo> I'd imagine that, say, dependent types would work well there
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22:21:03 <Sgeo> Static typing as in C might not be the answer, but that's no reason to throw out static typing altogether
22:21:06 <Gregor-P> More to the point, type systems do not and never will preclude bugs.
22:22:09 -!- yiyus_ has joined.
22:23:02 <olsner> "The fact that Smalltalk's numbers "scale" - in this case small integers scale to larger numbers - dynamically has everything to do with a benefit over statically typed numbers."
22:23:14 <pikhq> Sgeo: Static typing as in C is absolutely not the answer.
22:23:33 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Static, weak typing.
22:23:49 <pikhq> Gregor-P: Nope, it just precludes certain classes of bugs. Only idiots think static typing is the magic solution to all bugs.
22:24:03 <pikhq> Of course, there are a large number of idiots.
22:24:28 <coppro> static typing is not the solution to all bugs
22:25:10 <Sgeo> It would be nice if by types we stopped meaning, say, Numbers, Strings, etc, and started meaning, say, XCoord, YCoord, Distance, DisplayedString, etc.
22:26:15 <coppro> there are various languages that allow opaque retyping
22:26:29 <cpressey> Sgeo: That's what Hungarian Notation was originally supposed to be
22:26:37 -!- comex has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net).
22:26:49 <cpressey> Then Microsoft Microsofted the hell out of it
22:27:01 <Sgeo> I know Joel endorses that sort of Hungarian Notation
22:27:21 <cpressey> I tried to make it part of the language (one of my languages - Dieter)
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22:30:25 <nooga> there's no Dieter in our wiki
22:30:34 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: It took me a while -- but it was more complicated than just that (the type system has polymorphic typing with type qualifiers)
22:32:08 <cpressey> http://catseye.tc/projects/dieter/
22:37:07 <Phantom_Hoover> "# The DevTeam implemented an immediate and savage punishment for pudding farmers. It's called Pudding Farming." -- The TV Tropes Wiki article on NetHack.
22:43:56 <alise> <Sgeo> I'd imagine that, say, dependent types would work well there
22:44:01 <alise> Dependent types have their own whole host of problems.
22:44:13 <alise> They are unruly enough to be a Bad Idea unless the type language is total.
22:44:21 <alise> If the type language is total, that implies a full functional language, more or less...
22:44:27 <alise> and by that point, why use an imperative language at the base?
22:44:34 <alise> Also, dependent side-effecting types are hard.
22:44:52 <alise> Sgeo: Explain what?
22:44:57 <cpressey> My program doesn't terminate, my macros don't terminate, and now my type checking doesn't terminate! Boffo.
22:45:12 <Sgeo> total type languages, unruliness, dependent types...
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22:45:47 <alise> Sgeo: Type language: the language used in the type system. if you don't realise that types are expressions, you don't know what dependent programming is
22:45:52 <alise> unruly: hard to control, nearly impossible to use
22:45:56 <alise> dependent types: you yourself used this term
22:46:20 <Sgeo> That doesn't mean I understood it, except vaguely as "A type that can be constrained to be, say, between 1 and 5"
22:46:22 <alise> comex: are the details of your jailbreak exploit public?
22:46:24 <Sgeo> And I'm probably way off base
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22:48:40 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: tl;dr terminating
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22:51:47 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, "total" in the sense that it is defined for all input values?
22:51:57 <alise> That is where the term originates.
22:52:20 <alise> It means all functions are total; thus no non-terminating replies; thus in a functional language as this applies to, all programs terminate
22:52:52 <Phantom_Hoover> So you can't have a practical, dependently-typed language?
22:52:58 <nooga> http://vimeo.com/9056286 HOW COOL IS THAT
22:53:03 <alise> We just haven't figured out how yet.
22:53:12 <alise> It is Ongoing Research. Ask Connor McBride. He'll dazzle you with confusion.
22:53:24 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, if all functions are terminating you can't even write cat...
22:53:53 <coppro> why are current dependently typed languages impractical?
22:53:54 <cpressey> Ah. Well cat is modelled with a Beuchi automaton, you see...
22:54:00 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Untrue.
22:54:04 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Codata allows infinite data.
22:54:14 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: This is why we say "total", not "always-terminating".
22:54:20 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: codata is this thing.
22:55:59 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: it's complicated.
22:56:15 <alise> I love it when people ask questions that boil down to "please summarise this large field of study in a line"
22:56:34 <nooga> this thing that makes writing a simple cat pain
22:56:36 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: instead of constructors you have destructors and they can be infinite.
22:56:45 <alise> nooga: no, untrue, you can have a non-total base language
22:56:52 <alise> nooga: also, using codata is friggin' easy
22:56:57 <alise> just not explaining it.
22:57:05 <alise> nooga: try explaining imperative programmer to a "native" functional programmer
22:57:07 <alise> you'll sound like a madman.
22:57:09 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, incidentally, the typography at http://cseweb.ucsd.edu/groups/tatami/handdemos/doc/coind.htm is awful.
22:57:25 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I see no typography
22:57:48 <alise> a gaudy background image, no CSS styling, and some old bitmap images for Greek letters.
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23:01:30 <alise> "Nurse dancing is a minor tactic in NetHack. If you are naked and wielding nothing, a nurse will heal you instead of hurting you. If the healing attacks would heal you past your normal max hit points, your max hit points will increase."
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23:04:40 <nooga> alise: but the FACT is our computers have such a thing called STATE
23:05:11 <alise> and functional languages don't deny it. However, the "LOL computers have STATE" argument is basically preschool as far as functional languages are concerned and I have better things to do* than reply to it.
23:05:25 <alise> Maybe googling will turn up the answer to your complaint. Maybe not.
23:05:40 <nooga> and pretending that there's no such thing as STATE and trying to explain it to our computers is going the way round
23:05:40 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit (Quit: Quit).
23:06:12 <nooga> i just think that 'pure' languages are impractical for most uses
23:06:22 <nooga> ofc there are some cases when they rock
23:06:41 <cpressey> The FACT, nooga, is that all computers have BITS in them! So I make sure to write all my programs to do bitwise operations on my data.
23:07:07 <cpressey> To do any less would be passing up a great opportunity!
23:07:24 <alise> The universe has quantum mechanics. I cannot take a reference to a variable without its value changing.
23:07:33 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
23:07:34 <alise> That is because my language is done the right way around.
23:07:36 <nooga> ruling out state is much bigger abstraction than covering few bits with numbers
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23:12:12 <alise> what an awful argument
23:12:26 <alise> it's like you took a supremely mediocre argument, then just sort of dragged it down
23:13:23 <alise> 01:52:48 <Sgeo> But right now, after expunging my mind of the syntax horror that is OCaml, I'm obsessed with Smalltalk
23:13:28 <alise> presumably you missed the nice language
23:13:30 <alise> the syntax isn't that bad
23:14:20 <Sgeo_> I'm not sure how I could ever come to like OCaml, after tasting Haskell's [mostly] syntactical glory
23:14:31 <alise> yeah, uh, ocaml has better syntax than haskell in many many places
23:14:37 <Sgeo_> Well, not glory, but cleanlinesslooking
23:14:54 <alise> then you have to write it
23:15:00 <alise> and reminisce about ocaml
23:15:14 <nooga> oh come on, cars got 4 wheels, but you dont have to turn them personally, instead of that you use driving wheel and the engine takes care of the rest... but virtually you could build an extremely complicated robot that'd drive the car for you basing on your wishes
23:15:48 <nooga> but it's an overkill... nowadays, at least
23:15:56 <alise> nooga you really don't understand what you're talking about
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23:16:18 <alise> 23:40:56 <Sgeo> "; has type unit -> 'b -> 'b" ;; that's a lie, ; is synta
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23:17:01 <cpressey> I don't actually agree that languages are tools, but I would agree with the statement "pick the right abstraction for the job". Sometimes "stateful" is the right abstraction, sometimes "stateless" is, sometimes there is no right answer.
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23:17:49 <alise> cpressey: Of course, the whole point is that /stateful/ can happen in a stateless language.
23:17:56 <alise> Statelessness is an /abstraction/ of statefulness.
23:18:03 <alise> Which is why you can perfectly well write imperative code in Haskell.
23:18:08 <alise> And why people whining about it are stupid.
23:18:41 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: New quit message. Entering 2006 in style.).
23:18:42 * Sgeo_ wants to make AW SDK bindings for Smalltalk now
23:19:30 <nooga> how natural it is... we use some monadic trickery to mimic tatefulness in a stateless language that compiles to stateful language running on stateful machine
23:19:47 <nooga> sounds like an optimal solution
23:20:40 <alise> and nooga successfully ascends to the level of "assumption-making, stands-on-shoulders-of-giants (CPU architecture) but objects to adding more, complete and utter troll".
23:21:02 <alise> I think the Jews would circumsize you at this point.
23:21:45 <nooga> okay, let's just assume that i am completely wrong, eot
23:22:46 <alise> I support this assumption!
23:24:46 <cpressey> C emitted for Eightebed needs work, but it runs without crashing now! http://pastie.org/1076160
23:26:04 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, my mere mortal eyes suggest that that's not valid C.
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23:27:26 <cpressey> I just stubbed out the emitter stuff for variable references. And the struct contents, you see.
23:28:03 <alise> jim = eightebed_malloc(sizeof(node);
23:28:16 <alise> Also, so totally abbreviate it as 8ebed, if C allows starting an identifier with 8.
23:28:25 <cpressey> Well, maybe tonight, I'll finish it. Then I'll still need to work on the runtime. And optionally the validity analyzer (although I could just write out the rules, say they must be followed, and not implement them)
23:28:40 <cpressey> alise: indeed. I don't think it does. Maybe _8ebed.
23:29:13 <alise> cpressey: Could I also inform you that it should be "node *foo", not "node* foo"? You can lynch me if you want.
23:29:48 <cpressey> alise: HAH. Next you'll want it to be indented and all.
23:30:30 <cpressey> C has this weird convention in decls about variables "being" the pointers instead of the types. But you know that probably.
23:31:00 <cpressey> (Instead of the types being pointer types. Except they are. Oh, C.)
23:31:47 <coppro> does anyone know of any languages where you can dynamically change the types of variables?
23:32:22 <cpressey> coppro: Python comes immediately to mind. Of course, their values will generally change too.
23:32:49 <coppro> cpressey: variables don't have types in Python, only values
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23:34:01 <coppro> e.g. foo := 4; foo @= string; foo == "4" # true
23:34:16 <cpressey> coppro: You could build a container that has a (dynamically changeable) type in Python, I suppose.
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23:35:08 <cpressey> coppro: But what's stopping me from saying that all Python variables have a type, and that type is just derived from the type of the value that the variable is holding?
23:35:22 <cpressey> That doesn't seem to be too different from your e.g.
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23:36:00 <coppro> cpressey: because in my example, subsequently trying foo := 4 again would be an error because foo is a string
23:36:12 <coppro> (but foo := 4 @ string would be fine)
23:36:42 <cpressey> coppro: How is that dynamically changeable? Dynamically establishable, maybe...
23:36:47 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Because it hates you!
23:36:56 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Do you have she?
23:37:24 <alise> Do you have ghc 6.12?
23:37:28 <alise> Epigram requires it.
23:38:20 <cpressey> Anyway, must be off now. Slight chance I'll be back on later tonight. Ahoy!
23:38:21 <Phantom_Hoover> The specific error pertains to a lack of Control.Applicative.
23:38:23 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
23:38:55 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Please pastie the whole log.
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23:42:17 <alise> What command did you use?
23:42:31 <alise> It is a member of the hidden package `base'.
23:42:31 <alise> It is a member of the hidden package `base-3.0.3.2'.
23:42:39 <alise> are you SURE you have 6.*12*?
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23:45:16 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: *shrug* try rolling back revisions, report bug
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23:55:39 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: i have no clue
23:56:25 <Gregor-P> You must build a turtle fence!
23:58:11 <alise> He's right, you know.
23:58:17 <alise> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qizNQKzatXA
00:03:14 <alise> 10:38:41 <fizzie> I don't recall; based on the name only, it may have been another EgoBot instance.
00:03:19 <alise> it was immibis' annoyance machine
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00:05:38 * Sgeo_ wants to fix a typo in Pharo without breaking other people's code
00:06:10 <Sgeo_> The latter part is what's stopping me
00:06:19 <Sgeo_> I'm looking at this changes thing, and I see code changes
00:06:23 <Sgeo_> Not just my typo fix
00:08:01 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Because it is a sensitive person.
00:09:34 <Sgeo_> Ok, so the changeset against Pharo is just the change I want, but the changeset against PharoInbox isn't
00:09:40 <Sgeo_> Do I just save to PharoInbox anyway?
00:18:04 <Sgeo_> http://www.squeaksource.com/PharoInbox/
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00:38:54 <alise> Wow, the Star Wars Holiday Special is considered canon.
00:39:04 <alise> "The Holiday Special is important, at least to serious fans, for being the first film-length Star Wars story to appear following the release of Episode IV, as well as showing an expanded look at parts of the established universe. The program is considered canon with regards to Chewie's family, including the celebration of Life Day."
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00:47:14 <pikhq> Also, it kinda impresses me how much better output pdfTeX generates than straight TeX.
00:47:27 <pikhq> http://texblog.net/latex-archive/layout/pdflatex-microtype/ Seriously, just look at this.
00:47:50 <alise> The lesson: Knuth is stupid.
00:47:58 <pikhq> (granted, the difference should be nowhere near as notable on normal-width columns, but... Dang.)
00:48:26 <pikhq> alise: I wouldn't say that. Keep in mind that pdfTeX is pretty much the first thing this side of Gutenberg to do comprehensive microtypography.
00:48:45 <alise> pikhq: KNUTH IS BASICALLY A RETARD WHO KNOWS NOTHING
00:48:50 <alise> what has he ever done for us, also the romans
00:50:15 <coppro> alise: have you seen the iTeX video?
00:50:40 <alise> coppro: no, but i don't expect the joke to be that hilarious
00:50:50 * alise finally gets round to reading Five-Minute Voyager, instantly falls in love
00:50:51 <alise> Chakotay: Ha! Chakotay 1, Cardassians 0!
00:50:51 <alise> Tuvok: (detecting the wave) Um, you might want to reconsider that....
00:50:51 <alise> Janeway: Here's the deal -- betray your Maquis pals, and I'll bust you out of here.
00:50:51 <alise> Paris: No. On second thought, yes.
00:52:06 <alise> http://www.fiveminute.net/voyager/; http://www.fiveminute.net/voyager/fiver.php?ep=caretaker
00:53:06 <alise> I keep copying a quote but my mouse drags it further and further and eventually I end up trying to quote the whole thing
00:56:07 <alise> "Janeway promotes B'Elanna for punching Carey in the face."
00:58:15 <Sgeo_> Kazon: Can we keep the water?
00:59:34 <alise> Janeway: Oof! Hey, a shockwave!
00:59:34 <alise> Tuvok: Yep. Came from that planet.
00:59:34 <alise> Janeway: It's still emitting harmful radiation, so let's go towards it.
01:00:21 <alise> Paris: I thought we weren't supposed to break the Prime Directive.
01:00:21 <alise> Janeway: We already did, so now we can do it as much as we want.
01:00:48 <Sgeo_> There's a TNG that I liked that I want to see the 5min of
01:01:29 <alise> It sort of only works on terrible shows.
01:01:37 <alise> But here: http://fiveminute.net/nextgen/
01:01:49 <Sgeo_> It was a Wesley episode
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01:01:57 <Sgeo_> All of the commentary is making fun of that :/
01:02:02 <coppro> http://www.fiveminute.net/voyager/fiver.php?ep=theomegadirective
01:02:05 <coppro> Neelix: Okay -- just had to get a line in somewhere in this episode.
01:02:42 <Sgeo_> http://fiveminute.net/nextgen/fiver.php?ep=thegame
01:07:27 <alise> Janeway: So the plan is to fly right into the hands of the Kazon. Any objections?
01:08:13 <Sgeo_> Isn't Year of Hell generally considered good?
01:08:48 <alise> Voyager is universally terrible.
01:09:14 <alise> Some episodes are alright in isolation.
01:09:32 <alise> Then you realise that Janeway is a crazy sociopath with multiple personalities^Wwriters.
01:09:47 <Sgeo_> I haven't seen enough episodes to realize that, I think
01:10:09 <Sgeo_> I remember reading that the actor actually complained?
01:10:15 <alise> Doc: Bad news, baby. This baby isn't Chakotay's.
01:10:15 <alise> Seska: $#@*%! It must be Culluh's!
01:10:15 <alise> Doc: The computer's checking that with a DNA test. Ah, here we go. The baby's parents are...Mulder and Scully? What the--? Computer!
01:10:16 <alise> Computer: Can I help it if I'm a 'shipper?
01:10:33 <alise> Sgeo_: Chakotay's wooden playing is purposeful; the actor hated the show and really didn't give a shit.
01:10:43 <alise> Janeway's actor (who cares about names?) also disliked it quite a bit.
01:10:54 <alise> Basically it's great to watch because it's hilariously bad.
01:11:13 <alise> Kes: I wanna get captured.
01:11:13 <alise> Neelix: Look, we've discussed this. I'm not comfortable with a relationship involving S&M.
01:11:13 <alise> Kes: No, by the cavemen.
01:11:13 <alise> Neelix: Don't change the subject to exclusivity.
01:12:00 <alise> Culluh: I love all the gadgets on this ship. Watch this -- I can turn the ceiling fan on and off.
01:12:00 <alise> Seska: Maj, someone on board is using Maquis sabotage tricks!
01:12:00 <alise> Culluh: Fan goes on, fan goes off. Fan goes on, fan goes off.
01:12:03 <alise> MUST. QUOTE. EVERYTHING.
01:12:41 <alise> Doc: I'm afraid Suder was killed.
01:12:41 <alise> Tuvok: Guess I should say something Vulcan-like. (ahem) "Live long and prosper."
01:12:41 <alise> Doc: I don't think you heard me. He's dead.
01:12:41 <alise> Tuvok: If you can't find it in your heart to wish him a long life, keep your mouth shut.
01:13:19 <coppro> Data: It is made of anti-time. And it is giving off anti-time radiation.
01:13:21 <coppro> Picard: Shhh! Janeway will hear you!
01:14:23 <nooga> http://pastie.org/1076332 CTO
01:14:36 <coppro> Data: Aye, sir. Ooooooo! It appears the anomaly has been created by three converging tachyon beams from three different times.
01:14:39 <coppro> Picard: What an amazing coincidence! I've been in three different times and fired tachyon beams in this exact spot.
01:14:42 <coppro> Data: Perhaps those phenomena are related.
01:14:44 <coppro> Picard: I don't see how, but I'll switch to my future self. He's had more time to think about it.
01:15:25 <nooga> C subset jibberish generator
01:15:30 <nooga> http://pastie.org/1076334
01:15:34 <alise> Janeway: Mr. Kim, the date! I need to know the exact date!
01:15:34 <alise> Kim: November 23rd...1996!
01:15:34 <alise> Chakotay: November 23rd. The day before First Contact was released.
01:15:34 <alise> Janeway: That's what they came here to do! Stop First Contact! Ensign, where is the launch scheduled to take place?
01:16:42 <alise> Starling: Ha ha! I've stolen your doctor!
01:16:43 <alise> Everyone: (over the comm) Yay!
01:16:43 <alise> Starling: I was expecting "Uh oh" or "Oh nuts" or something.
01:17:19 <coppro> Future Riker: Take us in, Mr. Data. Hey, look, the other two Enterprises are on the viewscreen.
01:17:25 <coppro> Future Riker: Other one Enterprise.
01:17:30 <coppro> Future Riker: Forget it.
01:17:33 <coppro> Future Crusher: Wait! There's a pattern here! If it holds, then --
01:19:43 <alise> Chakotay: Seen any cloaked fleets lately?
01:19:43 <alise> Seven: Words fail me. Hey, a transmission.
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01:21:22 <alise> Paris: I found Chakotay and Harry in the morgue.
01:21:22 <alise> Tuvok: Their sacrifice will not be forgotten.
01:21:22 <alise> Paris: They aren't dead.
01:22:00 <zzo38> There are some literate programming systems designed for specific programming languages, such as Pascal WEB, CWEB, Enhanced CWEB, etc. And there are some generic literate programming aystems that can be used with any programming language, such as noweb, FunnelWeb, Newfangle, and also yesweb.
01:22:30 <zzo38> http://sprunge.us/fOZT
01:22:38 <zzo38> (Please look at it? Make comment of it? etc?)
01:23:10 <alise> Admiral: Okay, class, ask me some questions.
01:23:10 <alise> Student 1: Why are you just going by "Admiral"?
01:23:10 <alise> Admiral: "Admiral Janeway" takes too long to type. Next?
01:23:10 <alise> Student 2: Do you intend to travel back in time and alter history so that Voyager gets home 16 years earlier, violating the Temporal Prime Directive and risking irreparable damage to the timestream?
01:23:10 <alise> Admiral: I plead the Fifth.
01:23:26 <alise> zzo38: It's ... TeXy.
01:23:59 <alise> zzo38: Looks quite cool.
01:24:12 <zzo38> The \expandafter command is a useful command in TeX. Also strange things such as \catcode110=14
01:24:32 <zzo38> Is \catcode110=14 more strange or less strange than using prompt().toString() in JavaScript?
01:25:26 <alise> Are apples more or less strange than trees?
01:26:02 <Sgeo_> Crusher: It's just to underline the weird temporal properties of the anomaly. We'll also be killing Ogawa's baby to make that point.
01:26:08 <zzo38> alise: Yes it is written using TeX, it uses Plain TeX. Newfangle is written in LaTeX and requires no separate program to weave (weave is implemented as a set of LaTeX macros), but it uses a seperate program written in awk for tangle. yesweb is written entirely in Plain TeX and doesn't require anything else.
01:26:30 <zzo38> alise: I don't know if apples more/less strange than trees? But is that relevant? I don't actually know if it is relevant or not
01:27:05 <olsner> is there any material on how to use TeX as a general-purpose programming language? without the typesetting crud?
01:27:30 <zzo38> olsner: I don't know. But I might have partially done so in yesweb (so look at that for an example)
01:27:58 <alise> Borg: We're Borg. Get assimilated. Resistance sucks.
01:27:59 <alise> Janeway: Our armoured ship will now kick your collective butt.
01:27:59 <alise> Borg: Oh, fiddlesticks.
01:28:07 <alise> olsner: <3 you for just /thinking/ that
01:28:21 <zzo38> Resistance is futile (if less than 1ohm)
01:28:47 <alise> \loop ... \ifnum \foo < n \repeat
01:28:56 <alise> First TeX control structure I have now learned :P
01:29:15 <alise> Is "\advance \x by 1" Plain TeX or an intrinsic?
01:29:46 <zzo38> It is easy to check: Start TeX and then enter "\show\advance" at the prompt and it will tell you.
01:30:13 <alise> coppro: haha, someone made Voyager Virtual Season 8/9
01:30:33 <coppro> alise: this is brilliant
01:30:37 <zzo38> \loop is not built-in, however.
01:30:57 <olsner> hmm, \catcode is some kind of tr applied to ... the input? do tex programs have input?
01:31:16 <zzo38> olsner: \catcode is applied any more of the program that it reads itself.
01:31:24 <zzo38> It also affects \read and \write commands.
01:31:35 <Sgeo_> What's the one with the time loop?
01:31:53 <alise> zzo38: how do you declare a variable in tex?
01:31:54 <zzo38> \catcode is used to tell TeX what category the characters in the program belong to.
01:31:56 <olsner> groundhog day-style time loop?
01:32:08 <zzo38> alise: You can't, however, you can do a few similar things.
01:32:09 <olsner> every damn scifi needs to have one of those episodes...
01:32:45 <zzo38> alise: \newcount \newbox and so on allocate registers and assign names to them.
01:33:07 <zzo38> You can also assign meanings to control sequences, and create macros.
01:33:09 <olsner> zzo38: ok, so catcode32=9 says that spaces are in "category 9"? rather than mapping spaces to tabs?
01:33:19 <alise> ! Paragraph ended before \loop was complete.
01:33:21 <nooga> char c(char j, char dln5, char b1, char v7) {
01:33:22 <nooga> while(!531 / 623 != 428 < 913) {
01:33:24 <zzo38> olsner: Yes. That is what \catcode32=9 means.
01:33:56 <Sgeo_> http://www.fiveminute.net/nextgen/fiver.php?ep=causeandeffect
01:34:22 <alise> *\loop \n \advance \n by 1 \ifnum \n < 10 \repeat
01:34:22 <alise> ! Missing number, treated as zero.
01:34:27 <zzo38> That creates a integer register and increments the value.
01:34:53 <zzo38> alise: You can't use \n directly, you have to either assign a value or use it as a parameter. Try entering \the\n after \loop instead of just \n by itself.
01:35:25 <alise> Does it start at 0 or 1/
01:35:40 <zzo38> It starts at zero unless you explicitly tell it otherwise.
01:35:44 <alise> ...also, can I assign it with \n=1?
01:35:48 <alise> Or is it \newcount \n=1?
01:35:56 <zzo38> alise: Assign it with \n=1
01:36:17 <Sgeo_> These things don't make good episode summaries
01:36:26 <zzo38> Also, you need to print a space after each number, so put \space after \the\n
01:36:51 <alise> zzo38: Does it have to be \the every single time I mention n, ever?
01:37:34 <alise> When do I need \the, then?
01:38:05 <zzo38> You need \the whenever it is not expecting a register, and you have to instead convert it to a string to print it.
01:38:30 <zzo38> \the just converts the value of whatever register comes after it to a string
01:38:57 <alise> Yay, my program works!
01:38:59 <alise> \ifnum \n < 10 \repeat
01:40:05 <zzo38> alise: Now you learned.
01:40:16 <alise> Is there a while loop rather than a do/while?
01:41:14 <zzo38> alise: Yes, just put the condition at the top immediately after \loop instead of immediately before \repeat I think that will work too
01:41:47 <alise> Are while or do/while loops more common/idiomatic?
01:42:27 <zzo38> alise: I don't actually know, but I think the condition at the end is more common in TeX, as far as I know.
01:42:53 <alise> ifnum n < 10 repeat
01:43:02 <alise> So, if you removed the \s and replaced "the" with $...
01:43:21 <alise> ifnum n < 10 repeat
01:43:25 <alise> Yup, TeX is pretty normal. :P
01:44:47 <alise> I had better sleep.
01:45:17 <pikhq> Huh, TeX's programming stuff isn't as awful as I thought.
01:45:34 <pikhq> It's a bit poor, but... I can actually imagine using that.
01:45:38 <zzo38> pikhq: How awful did you think it was?
01:46:04 <pikhq> zzo38: Along the lines of "It's TC by accident".
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01:47:58 <zzo38> pikhq: It still has only 256 registers of each kind, though. And to do more advanced stuff you will have to learn some things about \expandafter and \csname and various other thing, because it does work differently, a bit.
01:48:21 <pikhq> zzo38: Still, it appears to be not 100% revolting.
01:48:34 <zzo38> (You can see the codes for yesweb to see how a full program is written)
01:48:44 <zzo38> pikhq: I also think it is not 100% revolting
01:49:35 <Gregor> http://www.explosm.net/comics/2130/ Hahahahaha this comic is exactly why I read C&H
01:49:41 <pikhq> It's sub-par, but eh. 70s language being usable suffices. :P
01:56:02 <zzo38> I want to figure out if there is some way to do something at each word boundary
01:56:23 <coppro> is it a good thing or a bad thing that to stop my media player, I do 'killall ogg123'?
02:00:14 <pikhq> coppro: If done as a normal user, quite a mundane thing.
02:00:27 <pikhq> Overkill, but mundane.
02:05:50 <zzo38> Do you think yesweb is better or worse than noweb and Newfangle?
02:06:40 <zzo38> (I have tested yesweb, and it does work. So don't complain that it doesn't work.)
02:07:49 <pikhq> Gregor: Yes, that is about it. :)
02:10:58 <zzo38> How strange do you consider prompt().toString() to be in JavaScript, anyways? (I have used this)
02:13:20 <Sgeo_> What's the point of the toString() bit?
02:13:26 * Sgeo_ isn't exactly a Javascript expert
02:13:45 <zzo38> Sgeo_: Yes, that is the part that seems strange
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02:13:58 <zzo38> But it does actually have a use there (even though the return value of prompt() is already a string)
02:14:00 <Gregor> JavaScript will coerce things to strings on its own quite often, but not always. Anyway without context I can't judge whether that's strange.
02:14:34 <zzo38> Gregor: Yes it does, but the return of prompt() is already a string anyways!
02:14:49 <Gregor> zzo38: String.prototype.toString is id.
02:15:38 <Gregor> Not that that's really an answer :P
02:15:49 <zzo38> Gregor: Yes, it is, but there is still a reason for prompt().toString() see if you can think of it.
02:15:54 <zzo38> (If you cannot, I can answer you)
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02:16:26 <Gregor> Oh, I forgot that prompt() is a builtin function, doy.
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02:16:38 <Gregor> I don't know what prompt() returns if you close it without hitting OK, probably null.
02:16:47 <Gregor> And if that's the case, then it doesn't always return a string. Not sure though.
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02:18:42 <zzo38> Gregor: Yes you are right about that. And do you know what null.toString() does?
02:19:06 <Gregor> Off the top of my head, I suspect it's one of: "", "null" or maybe "0"
02:19:37 <Gregor> So that throws an exception.
02:20:13 <zzo38> Now do you understand what prompt().toString() is for? Hopefully now you do.
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02:21:13 <Gregor> Seems like a silly way to coerce an exception out of that though ...
02:21:14 <Sgeo_> Why would you want to blow up and die just because some moron didn't click Ok?
02:21:33 * Sgeo_ blows up and dies Gregor
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02:23:42 * Sgeo_ will be watching Futurama in approx 38 min
02:24:11 <Gregor> Thank you for the update.
02:24:18 <Gregor> Please keep us apprised of all Futurama-related news.
02:24:30 <pikhq> Good news everybody!
02:25:00 <Gregor> pikhq: Well played, sir. Well played.
02:25:41 <coppro> pikhq: hey, that's a registered trademark!
02:41:42 <pikhq> coppro: Genericisation bitch.
02:47:44 <Sgeo_> "the process scheduler in Squeak/Pharo just isn't built to handle a crazy amount of threads"
02:47:49 <Sgeo_> Opposite of Erlang then?
02:57:57 * pikhq looks at new cell phones
03:00:29 <Sgeo_> And... I was wrong about the day of the week
03:13:21 <Sgeo_> Was about to ask if I should consider Self, but:
03:13:22 <Sgeo_> "we would be very interested in anyone prepared to make a Windows port."
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03:52:18 <augur> im in florida, on comcast
03:52:23 <augur> give some stuff to torrent
03:59:18 <Gregor> Porn. Don't even need torrent.
03:59:36 <pikhq> The Internet *is* for it.
04:04:38 <Gregor> Clearly he is downloading porn even as we speak.
04:05:26 <augur> i am download linguist porn
04:05:44 <Gregor> And non-bandwidth-consuming.
04:06:50 <pikhq> Gregor: It's *cunning* linguist porn, at least.
04:07:10 <augur> pikhq: yes, it features noam chomsky and tanya reinhart.
04:07:42 <augur> kratzer comes in for a lesbian scene somewhere along the way
04:08:00 <Gregor> Oh, is that what that was supposed to mean.
04:08:13 <augur> ok you're no use to me then.
04:08:27 <Gregor> I'M STILL A MAN, DAMN IT
04:08:40 <augur> i was going to ask if you wanted to toy around with an app me and some friends are making
04:08:48 <augur> see what kind of fun plugins for it you could make
04:09:32 <pikhq> Even my soon-to-be-had phone shall run Linux!
04:10:42 <pikhq> Palm WebOS, actually.
04:11:03 <pikhq> Gregor: $0.00 is not fail
04:14:45 <Sgeo_> I've read good things about the UI
04:16:18 <pikhq> It uses the freaking Konami code to unlock it!
04:19:29 <coppro> I think that's an auto-win
04:20:57 <coppro> achievement unlocked 2
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09:11:00 <Sgeo__> Crusher: Computer, what just happened?
09:11:00 <Sgeo__> Computer: The spherical universe we occupy is collapsing. Its periphery has just obliterated the forward edge of the ship's saucer section.
09:11:00 <Sgeo__> Crusher: Does that mean that Ten-Forward is now the Restaurant at the End of The Universe?
09:11:00 <Sgeo__> Computer: Very well put.
09:19:16 <Sgeo__> Riker: Cry me a river. Data, Worf, go get a shuttle ready and finalize your wills. Wesley, bring me fifteen kilos of tissue paper.
09:19:16 <Sgeo__> Riker: In case Deanna takes me literally
09:24:05 * Sgeo__ is rather upset at the Five-Minute Stargate link not working
09:24:46 <Sgeo__> Well, there's one ep: http://www.fiveminute.net/stargate/eps/2010.htm
09:24:52 <Sgeo__> There may be more, I guess
09:25:37 <coppro> Hansen: You're just such a screwup.
09:25:37 <coppro> Hansen: Oh, and I promote you to Captain.
09:26:54 <Sgeo__> Meh, the 5min Stargate ep was boring
09:27:38 <coppro> the arrakkis line is good
09:28:22 <Sgeo__> Not referring to the movie one
09:28:33 <Sgeo__> Was referring to the 2010 ep
09:30:24 <coppro> Crusher: Jean-Luc? Are you in there?
09:30:24 <coppro> Locutus: Foolish human. Picard no longer exists.
09:30:24 <coppro> Crusher: Oh, fine. Can I get you a drink?
09:30:25 <coppro> Locutus: Tea, Earl Grey, hot. --Dammit!
09:36:27 <Sgeo__> I am convinced that Smalltalk would have been the best language for this project
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14:18:08 <ais523> <KesZerda> Yes, and PCRE throws errors when it hits these limits. PHP interprets these errors as successes.
14:18:24 <ais523> if anyone ever asks me what's wrong with PHP, I now have this to refer to
14:19:56 <ais523> hmm, better version of the same quote by the same person:
14:20:00 <ais523> <KesZerda> PHP doesn't handle the error PCRE sends out sanely. If PCRE hits the backtrack limit (which is by default set to 10000000 backtracks, much higher than php's alteration), then PCRE throws an error -- PCRE_ERROR_MATCHLIMIT -- which PHP should throw for the code to handle, instead of quietly succeeding.
14:20:59 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
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15:33:37 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
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15:46:50 <songhead95> how do you run <insert language> on hackego
15:48:54 <ais523> !bf ,[.,]!Hello, world!
15:49:10 <ais523> hackego isn't really good for running languages
15:49:15 <ais523> also, where's egobot gone?
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15:59:04 <cpressey> It's run away to join the circus!
16:00:36 <Gregor> I always knew it was flighty *sigh*
16:00:48 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
16:00:56 <ais523> hmm, maybe I just messed up my program?
16:01:02 <Gregor> Also, its !bf interpreter doesn't accept !input :P
16:01:08 <EgoBot> 61 +++++++++++++[>+>+++++++++>++++++++><<<<-]>>-.>---.<-.+.<---. [48]
16:01:36 <ais523> it always used to, didn't it?
16:01:41 <fungot> ais523: table fnord. they who should have been otherwise. nor is there any form of popular election were supposed to be right, i am not sure as to which st. paul suggests a reference to paley on this subject.
16:02:29 <fungot> Gregor: great britain had a tammany and a croker a good while before he or his family settle again to their business. their heads were stuck upon spears, and led the procession; whilst the royal captives who followed in the reign of henry viii., or fnord.
16:02:53 <ais523> !bf +++++++++++++[>+>+++++++++>++++++++><<<<-]>>-.>---.<-.+.<---.
16:03:32 <Gregor> Does anybody have any idea what tipjar.com is, other than a web site which was founded in 1996 and clearly hasn't been updated since 1996?
16:08:34 <fizzie> Fungot's ^bf takes !input, yes. And if you ^def foo bf bar, it will internally rewrite "^foo baz" to "^bf bar!baz".
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16:17:48 <cpressey> Last night I managed to get my Eightebed compiler (written in Python) to emit C that actually compiles. Got a fair way along with the static validity analyzer too. All that's left is to finish that, write the runtime support (the most important part :/ ), and write a test suite, I guess.
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16:39:21 <cpressey> I'm trying to read the source for Epigram (literate Haskell). I should probably stop because I don't know enough about type theory to tell when they're joking or not.
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17:11:02 <Gregor-P> So, does anybody have any idea what tipjar.com is, other than a site that clearly hasn't changed since its founding in 1996?
17:11:35 <ais523> I don't, or I'd have answered earlier
17:11:40 <ais523> although I do vaguely recognise the name
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17:13:29 <Gregor-P> ais523: I wouldn't have seen it earlier, hence reasking X-P
17:28:29 <cpressey> Gregor-P: One might think that is a "yes-no" question, until one notices the universal quantification in it, making it a "yes-not me" question.
17:29:26 <cpressey> Er, actually existential quantification I guess.
17:29:42 <Gregor-P> Thanks for the breakdown, now gimme some Eightebed so I cab break it :P
17:32:59 <Gregor-P> Nope, I'm going to drive a taxi into it.
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17:35:17 <AnMaster> Gregor-P, what is "Eightebed", _no_ google hits here
17:35:50 <Gregor-P> cpressey: Congrats, you found a totally unique name.
17:36:49 <oerjan> sadly google is _disgustingly_ bad at crawling for entirely new esolangs
17:36:51 <cpressey> Gregor-P: Actually, alise found it. With her iPhone. But, like "Befunge", I recognized the significance of the word as a language name.
17:36:55 <nooga> "Puss, despite that it is intended to be a small tool, is still in early stage." is this sentence correct ?
17:37:27 <oerjan> AnMaster: shocking, isn't it? what are people _doing_ in this channel?
17:37:30 <AnMaster> actually, when refreshing I get one hit
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17:38:00 <AnMaster> and that one hit is: [PDF] Allegheny County Medical Society [...] Pittsburgh and the eightebed [...]
17:38:29 <Gregor-W> nooga: First I will attempt to formulate a "correct" version, then I will attempt to diff them."Puss, although intended to be a small tool, is still in an early stage."
17:38:42 <Gregor-W> That's a bit wonky at the end, maybe want "of development"
17:38:49 <Gregor-W> (Not a correctness issue, just a clarity issue)
17:38:55 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, btw did yesterday turn out to be the best of worlds?
17:39:19 <Gregor-W> AnMaster: YES but for totally different reasons, I didn't snag coding time :P
17:41:12 <Gregor-W> nooga: Hmmm, OK, your "despite" clause, upon further thought, is probably correct, but very awkward, as you've assigned Puss the pronoun "it" in a clause before even getting to the action verb.
17:41:33 <oerjan> nooga: "despite that it is ..." sounds stilted in english, especially as an adjectival phrase
17:42:05 <oerjan> i think "despite being ..." would be the usual phrasing, except that would give you two "being" there...
17:42:08 <Gregor-W> nooga: "is still in early stage" just needs to be "an early stage", unless "early stage" is actually the name of a stage, not just a description.
17:42:46 <Gregor-W> Also, I'll just put forth that the whole sentence is kinda weird; although intended to be small, it's in an early stage of development? Are these two things related?
17:42:52 <AnMaster> what about: "Puss, although intended to be a small tool, is still even smaller than that"
17:42:59 <oerjan> er, one "being" and one "to be", which still would be awkward
17:43:56 <AnMaster> alternatively it might be way too large
17:44:03 <AnMaster> depends on which way you are goingf
17:44:04 <cpressey> Although oddly if you put the adjectival phrase first, the awkwardness with "it" diminishes: ""Despite that it is intended to be a small tool, Puss is still in [an] early stage [of development]." Perfectly fine to me.
17:44:35 <Gregor-W> cpressey: That is an interesting observation, AND true.
17:44:49 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, cpressey, if "early stage" is actually a name of a stage I would suggest using title case for it
17:45:02 <cpressey> I might use "Despite [the fact] that it is..." but that's my own preference for being wordy, I think
17:45:07 <nooga> PUSS IS A SMALL TOOL
17:45:12 <Gregor-W> cpressey: Naw, I'd do that too.
17:45:26 <Gregor-W> cpressey: I might even say "In spite of the fact that it is"
17:45:50 <AnMaster> cpressey, you call that wordy? Bah, nothing compared to the wordiness we had when _I_ was young.
17:46:09 <AnMaster> We had to use a shovel to dig our way through it!
17:46:51 <cpressey> O English! What mortal couldst tame thy hirsute naughtiness?
17:47:18 <AnMaster> this spell checker accepts the word however
17:47:25 <AnMaster> and I noticed yesterday that it didn't like "movie"
17:47:47 <AnMaster> I suspect en_GB might be rather outdated on this system
17:48:09 <Gregor-W> Now 'round yonder we ain't gettin' y'all's Queen's English wit' yer "hirsutes" n' yer "couldsts".
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17:49:20 <AnMaster> that's my only comment to that line.
17:50:19 <cpressey> I only know "hirsute" because it was on a list of "words you should study to do well on the verbal portion of the GRE", and shortly thereafter I actually heard it used, in an episode of Dr. Who.
17:51:10 <Gregor-W> People who contract the "Doctor" in "Doctor Who" are the WORST kind of people.
17:52:00 <cpressey> Fine, DOCTOR WHO. Anyway, I've noticed that happens a lot -- you learn a word, then suddenly hear it used. It's probably some kind of psychological trick, like, you heard the word before, but you didn't know what it meant, so you didn't retain the memory the same way.
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17:52:11 <cpressey> But "hirsute"? I dunno, man. That was a weird coincidence.
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17:55:40 <oerjan> if you look like you're wearing a hair suit, you might be hirsute.
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18:10:17 <nooga> i think i'm going to watch an episode of doctor who right now
18:11:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Fun fact: zapping an unknown wand at yourself is not a very good idea.
18:12:48 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, how many times have you ascended?
18:14:26 <Phantom_Hoover> I've reached Minetown once or twice, but I've always died before getting back to the main dungeon.
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18:25:00 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, yes, several times
18:26:27 <AnMaster> currently I'm playing an extinctionism game. Quite close to that objective. If I have kept an accurate count almost everything except & A and D are either extinct or genocided by now
18:27:22 <AnMaster> well, I don't have any such scroll handy currently
18:27:33 <AnMaster> besides, extinction is more proper than genocide
18:27:58 <AnMaster> just used genocide for buggers like mind flayers and arch liches
18:28:27 <AnMaster> atm I'm using cursed scrolls of create monster in a boulder fort to create lots of dragons
18:39:15 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, you could eat their corpses?
18:39:34 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought I could, but it tells me that I think eating it was a bad idea.
18:42:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Why my kitten wasn't done for cannibalism I do not know
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19:03:01 <cpressey> "Fruit comprehensions? They're like list comprehensions, but for fruit."
19:11:12 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I find that the initial pet mostly gets in your way. I prefer pets from various figurines and eggs later on. I mean, a black dragon as a pet definitely beats a kitten by far. It doesn't just steal from shops, it kills the shop keeper (always leave that to strong pets, never do it yourself)
19:11:24 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, what class are you playing?
19:12:02 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, it is a bad choice if you never ascended. I would go for val. I did my first ascension with val and also the majority of them
19:12:36 <oerjan> cpressey: well if Fruit is a Monad, you can use do blocks for that purpose
19:13:00 <AnMaster> especially if you die before the quest. Because val is much stronger at low levels than wiz. wiz is only really good for the latter half of the game
19:13:02 <oerjan> alas, monad comprehensions were abolished in Haskell 98
19:14:00 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Perhaps it thought it was a Wumpus.
19:15:47 <cpressey> oerjan: Not even available as one of those optional pragma things?
19:15:51 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, sokoban? Be careful of the luck penalties
19:16:25 <Phantom_Hoover> There was a monster behind a boulder which wouldn't move.
19:22:34 <oerjan> cpressey: hm maybe it's been added recently - i think it was said they'd add it if someone made a patch
19:23:33 <cpressey> oerjan: I'm having a hard time seeing how "do" *isn't* a monad comprehension, actually
19:23:55 <oerjan> yes, do notation and comprehensions are equivalent
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19:25:28 <cpressey> Anyway, I'm sick of people asking me to define fruit in terms of monads, so I refuse to comply!
19:26:10 <oerjan> hm i cannot find it in the ghc's language option list
19:26:32 <oerjan> there are two options for comprehensions, but none extends it to monads
19:27:43 <oerjan> both do notation and list comprehensions are syntactic sugar
19:29:23 <cpressey> oerjan: Oh, while we're on the subject, there's something that's been on my mind for a while
19:30:17 <cpressey> I think I've heard that monads in Haskell are "strict in the first argument'. Is this true? Is this a necessary quality of monads? And is this the real reason why they can be used for IO?
19:30:34 <oerjan> it's untrue, in fact it varies by monad
19:31:27 <oerjan> IO is strict in the first argument (to >>=), but e.g. Reader is strict in the second
19:32:11 <cpressey> OK. Would it be true that a monad that has to match "the outside world" as it were, would have to be strict in at least one argument?
19:33:10 <oerjan> well eschewing concurrency, all haskell evaluation would generally need one of the arguments first, if any
19:34:23 <cpressey> I don't think that's the meaning of "strict" I'm thinking of.
19:35:01 <oerjan> hm wait that's not true if you use seq, either
19:36:46 <oerjan> generally in a >>= f it would be harmless to evaluate the _function_ f, i think, so it doesn't have to be precisely strict in the first one
19:37:01 <cpressey> I'm basically trying to figure out if there is something inherent about monads that lets them define evaluation order, or whether they're just "carriers" for something else (something like seq, yeah) that defines the evaluation order.
19:37:27 <oerjan> the inherent thing about monads is that they force _data flow_, i think
19:37:46 <pikhq> Yeah, they force data flow. They absolutely do not (in general) force evaluation order.
19:37:59 <pikhq> Well, no more so than any other set of functions can.
19:38:28 <pikhq> (any function can effectively force evaluation order just with seq or judicious pattern matching, after all)
19:39:00 <cpressey> OK. That helps clarify it. Thank you all.
19:39:22 <oerjan> seq can be simulated with pattern matching whenever its left argument is of a known algebraic data type, incidentally
19:40:22 <oerjan> (just do any match that forces actually finding the top constructor)
19:42:34 <oerjan> !haskell let loop = Nothing >> loop in loop :: Maybe ()
19:44:55 <oerjan> !haskell import Control.Monad.Reader; loop = loop >> ask; main = print $ runReader loop "Poof!"
19:49:15 <cpressey> Actually, I'm not sure it's any clearer.
19:49:31 <oerjan> !haskell import Control.Monad.Writer; test = tell [1] >> undefined >> tell undefined; main = print $ (head output, result) where (output, result) = runWriter test
19:50:12 <oerjan> !haskell import Control.Monad.Writer; test = tell [1] >> undefined >> tell undefined; main = print $ (head output, result) where (result, output) = runWriter test
19:50:49 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: I thought I did several times. I can never seem to retain a coherent mental model of how they work, though.
19:51:01 <oerjan> cpressey: the last is an example of a Monad where _part_ of the monad value is strict in the first argument to >>, and _part_ is strict in the second :)
19:53:33 <EgoBot> return :: (Monad m) => a -> m a
19:53:41 <EgoBot> (>>=) :: (Monad m) => m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b
19:54:24 <Phantom_Hoover> These must satisfy the axioms that (return x) >>= f == f x,
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19:55:41 <Phantom_Hoover> m >>= return == m, and (m >>= f) >>= g == m >>= (\x -> (f x >>= g))
19:57:48 <cpressey> That's the whole problem with the didacticism of monads. Just stating the definition of something does very little to help one understand it.
19:57:53 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, return "puts" a value into a monad, >>= takes it "out" and applies it to its second argument.
20:00:35 <pikhq> The first law is clearer with do notation. The second is hairy without Kleisli arrows.
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20:02:03 <pikhq> (with that, we get the monad laws as: return >=> g == g, f >=> return == f, (f >=> g) >=> h == f >=> (g >=> h))
20:02:21 <pikhq> BTW, >=> :: Monad m => (a -> m b) -> (b -> m c) -> a -> m c
20:02:28 <pikhq> m >=> n = \x -> do { y <- m x; n y }
20:02:45 <pikhq> See, it's nice and clean that way. Sadly, not much help.
20:08:09 <cpressey> It would be even cleaner (but probably still not much help) if the operators were visually distinct instead of being combinations of arrows and lines. Thank you, ASCII.
20:08:36 <pikhq> m >=> n = \x -> m x >>= n
20:09:20 <pikhq> (after mentally applying the de-sugaring, and then a simple reduction)
20:09:46 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, but never mind.
20:11:38 <pikhq> cpressey: Would it make you feel better to know that you don't have to understand any of this to use Haskell?
20:12:00 <cpressey> pikhq: Not exactly, since I've written several nontrivial programs in Haskell.
20:12:09 <pikhq> It's most relevant when you're wondering if you could make a datatype a monad.
20:13:40 <cpressey> I tend to just avoid monads and write any I/O code that I have to do in cargo cult fashion.
20:14:41 <pikhq> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Monad_Laws Perhaps this helps?
20:15:14 <pikhq> If it doesn't, you can conclude that monads are burritos and call it a day.
20:18:47 <Mathnerd314> someone asked me about monads the other day... I tried to explain, but he lost interest after 5 minutes
20:21:53 <Mathnerd314> I really need an "monads in minutes" explanation :p
20:22:27 <oerjan> a monotone monologue on monads, measurable in minutes
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20:25:07 <cpressey> Mathnerd314: Well, I can offer this piece of advice: don't just recite the monad laws.
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20:34:39 <nooga> Mathnerd314: what are these monads anyway?
20:35:22 <oerjan> !haskell [] >> undefined :: [()]
20:36:18 <Mathnerd314> and I pulled up this page: http://blog.sigfpe.com/2006/08/you-could-have-invented-monads-and.html
20:36:58 <Mathnerd314> and then he stopped paying attention and talked about other things :-(
20:37:30 <cpressey> It's kind of a boring blog post
20:38:40 <Mathnerd314> yeah, I need something exciting and/or short
20:38:52 <Mathnerd314> maybe I should have asked on #haskell first
20:39:15 <cpressey> Monads are not the only things in Haskell that I essentially can't think in. I also can't think in pointfree form.
20:43:32 <cpressey> Yeah -- I guess I'm just stupid.
20:49:23 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Pointfree
20:50:36 <cpressey> In contrast, a lot of the time I don't even use fold -- I write the folding into my function.
20:50:56 <Mathnerd314> yeah, I tend to use recursion instead of combinators
20:51:49 <cpressey> I wouldn't call it NIH exactly, but it is the same kind of thing probably.
20:51:59 <cpressey> I like to call it "pointless style"
20:52:12 <Mathnerd314> well, unless you've memorized them, the higher-order functions are rather hard to discover
20:54:10 <oerjan> cpressey: you're not the first one to use that term :)
20:55:01 <oerjan> (in fact lambdabot's command for generating it is @pl)
20:56:03 <cpressey> pl \a (b,c) -> a c b =====> (`ap` snd) . (. fst) . flip
20:57:59 <oerjan> cpressey: uncurry . flip, i think
20:58:29 <oerjan> @pl afair is not very smart with simplifications
20:58:55 <oerjan> or wait is that curry or uncurry
20:59:10 <oerjan> !haskell (curry . flip) (+) (1,2)
20:59:23 <oerjan> !haskell (uncurry . flip) (+) (1,2)
21:00:44 <oerjan> cpressey: i think many of ghc's optimization rules for lists depend on using fold/map style rather than explicit recursion
21:01:27 <oerjan> if you want it to remove intermediate lists
21:09:23 <oerjan> !haskell import Control.Monad.State.Strict; main = flip runState 1 $ put 2 >> undefined >> put 3
21:09:41 <oerjan> !haskell import Control.Monad.State.Strict; main = print . flip runState 1 $ put 2 >> undefined >> put 3
21:09:44 <EgoBot> input.19732.hs: Prelude.undefined
21:10:13 <oerjan> so the strict State monad is essentially strict in _both_ arguments
21:10:39 <oerjan> !haskell import Control.Monad.State.Lazy; main = print . flip runState 1 $ put 2 >> undefined >> put 3
21:17:26 <EgoBot> *** Exception: Prelude.undefined
21:17:57 <oerjan> it's a most undefined value :D
21:18:05 <cpressey> OK, that helps explain what the heck you were doing
21:19:08 <oerjan> the definition of a strict function f is that f undefined is undefined :)
21:22:59 <oerjan> well mathematically it's indistinguishable from being strict
21:23:54 <oerjan> sure - how can you be sure it didn't look at its value before returning undefined?
21:25:41 <oerjan> incidentally that function is the reason why haskell's seq breaks the eta conversion rule - \x -> undefined = \x -> undefined x but the latter is not undefined
21:26:21 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: that ; doesn't end the let block
21:26:53 <oerjan> you need {} brackets in that case
21:27:29 <oerjan> assuming EgoBot's !haskell even allows two ghci commands on a line
21:27:53 <oerjan> replacing ; with in should work
21:28:15 <Phantom_Hoover> !haskell let f _ = undefined in putStrLn "Hello, world!"
21:28:30 <Phantom_Hoover> !haskell let f _ = undefined in f (putStrLn "Hello, world!")
21:28:31 <EgoBot> *** Exception: Prelude.undefined
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21:29:58 <oerjan> that putStrLn "Hello, world!" wouldn't have been run even if f were non-strict, unless it actually returned it
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21:30:42 <oerjan> evaluating an IO action does _not_ run it
21:31:08 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, oh. What things have side-effects when evaluated, then?
21:31:23 <oerjan> !haskell (putStrLn "Hello, world!") `seq` "Boo!"
21:32:26 <oerjan> half the point of haskell's purity is that evaluation _has_ no side effects
21:33:00 <Sgeo__> undefined is not a side-effect
21:33:56 <oerjan> oh well... it depends how you look at it, but mainly you say the result of the whole computation is undefined/bottom then
21:34:30 <oerjan> the addition of exceptions has messed things up a little bit
21:37:44 <oerjan> the theory they used is that the result of a pure computation could be either an ordinary value, or a set of possible exceptions
21:38:37 <oerjan> note that there is no way to distinguish different exceptions from inside _pure_ code - they can only be caught in the IO monad
21:41:16 <oerjan> there's at least one testing library for haskell which uses catching undefined exceptions to test whether functions are strict
21:43:44 <cpressey> <oerjan> evaluating an IO action does _not_ run it
21:44:14 <Sgeo__> main is a little bit special. Whatever it describes, gets run
21:44:18 <oerjan> as that !haskell (putStrLn "Hello, world!") `seq` "Boo!" above proves
21:44:43 <Sgeo__> IO a is just a description of an IO action
21:45:13 <oerjan> !haskell System.IO.Unsafe.unsafePerformIO (putStr "Hello, world!") `seq` "Boo!"
21:46:29 <Phantom_Hoover> !haskell let f _ = undefined in f $ System.IO.Unsafe.unsagePerformIO $ putStrLn "Hello, world!"
21:46:55 <Phantom_Hoover> !haskell let f _ = undefined in f $ System.IO.Unsafe.unsafePerformIO $ putStrLn "Hello, world!"
21:46:56 <EgoBot> *** Exception: Prelude.undefined
21:47:33 <Sgeo__> !haskell [putStrLn "X"]
21:47:40 <oerjan> unsafePerformIO is not considered to be inside haskell's ordinary semantics :)
21:48:09 <Sgeo__> !haskell print [putStrLn "X"]
21:48:54 <oerjan> Sgeo__: the parse error was because it didn't work as a ghci command, so !haskell tried it as a module, which it doesn't parse at
21:49:17 <cpressey> !haskell let f _ = undefined in f (f)
21:49:18 <EgoBot> *** Exception: Prelude.undefined
21:49:32 <oerjan> to get useful error messages in !haskell, you have to use the module form
21:49:52 <oerjan> (just prepend main = or main = print $ , mostly)
21:50:03 <Sgeo__> !haskell main = print [putStrLn "X"]
21:50:25 * oerjan bets on a missing Show instance for IO String
21:51:06 <Sgeo__> But at least that makes sense
21:51:17 <cpressey> !haskell length [putStrLn "X"]
21:51:27 <oerjan> in other words, it's a perfectly legal list, there's just no way defined for printing it
21:51:35 <cpressey> But putStrLn "X" wouldn't even have been evaluated there
21:51:59 <Sgeo__> The only thing that ever gets "evaluated" (barring unsafePerformIO trickery) is main
21:52:17 <oerjan> i don't think you _can_ get an IO action evaluated without running it unless you use seq
21:53:13 <cpressey> It's interesting how a beautiful mathematical framework can look all contrived and stuff once you turn it into a programming language
21:53:19 <oerjan> (or something equivalent to seq. pattern matching won't work since IO has no constructors)
21:53:52 <Sgeo__> !haskell length [ (putStrLn "X") `seq` () ]
21:54:10 <oerjan> Sgeo__: that still isn't even evaluated
21:54:29 <oerjan> however replace length with head
21:54:46 <Sgeo__> !haskell head [ (putStrLn "X") `seq` () ]
21:55:14 <cpressey> What does seq *do* with its first argument?
21:55:30 <oerjan> evaluates it to weak head normal form
21:55:36 <Sgeo__> !haskell print (undefined `seq` ())
21:55:37 <EgoBot> *** Exception: Prelude.undefined
21:55:56 <oerjan> which means the top constructor, for an ordinary data type
21:55:57 <cpressey> What does it do with the weak head normal form it gets?
21:56:22 <cpressey> And evaluating an argument by definition has no side effects
21:56:42 <oerjan> cpressey: if it involves evaluating variables, the results are cached
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21:57:39 <oerjan> ok there is _one_ case where seq matters
21:57:50 <Sgeo__> I may have misspoken before
21:57:52 <oerjan> !haskell undefined `seq` "Test"
21:57:53 <EgoBot> *** Exception: Prelude.undefined
21:58:46 <oerjan> cpressey: semantically seq does nothing other than check whether the first argument is undefined before returning the second
21:59:44 <oerjan> however this has the _practical_ consequence of evaluating the thunk for the first argument, with all usual caching results and plugging of memory leaks
22:00:54 <oerjan> types don't depend on values in haskell, which is the definition of dependent typing
22:01:28 * Sgeo__ knows what monads are, but not much of what dependent types are
22:02:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo__, like oerjan said, they're types that depend on values.
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22:03:04 <Sgeo__> So, a dependent type could be a number between 1 and 10?
22:03:06 <cpressey> Monads are dependent values. And seq is a hoax!
22:03:28 <oerjan> i recall someone noted once that ghc doesn't even guarantee evaluating a _first_ in a `seq` b
22:03:33 <pikhq> Sgeo__: Yes, (Number x) => x >= 1 && x <= 10 -- is an example.
22:03:35 <zzo38> What I should do is write a external program that you can pipe output of TeX into, so that it can interpret the output of \showbox and other things, and then allow you to re-read the reults using \read command and so on
22:04:17 <oerjan> ghc's strictness analysis could cause it to rearrange things
22:04:19 <Sgeo__> Are there any languages that use dependent types?
22:04:22 <zzo38> (What should I call this program?)
22:04:29 <oerjan> Sgeo__: Coq, Agda, Epigram
22:05:04 <Sgeo__> Coq is a mathematical proof thing, right? So I'll just skip it. What are Epigram and Agda like?
22:05:22 <pikhq> oerjan: Yeah, pseq is the one with that guarantee.
22:05:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo__, mathematical proof things but slightly less so.
22:05:35 <zzo38> (Perhaps "pipetex" will do? Or do you have a better idea?)
22:06:33 <oerjan> Sgeo__: the thing is dependent typing basically forces you to do a lot of proving anyhow afaik
22:07:35 <oerjan> because you are basically allowing your types to be mathematical statements about the relationships of values, which must be proved to show the program is well-typed
22:08:29 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: There's the literate Haskell source, formatted into a PDF. It's a real hoot.
22:08:51 <Sgeo__> So, it's not feasable to write a game in a dependent typing language?
22:09:19 <oerjan> cpressey: i recall from a previous comment that your last sentence there might _not_ be sarcasm? :D
22:09:53 <cpressey> oerjan: I think "a real hoot" has a complex and subtle meaning in my idiolect
22:09:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo__, Coq, Agda and probably Epigram can't have recursive functions like in Haskell, so writing a game would be nigh-on impossible.
22:10:09 <cpressey> It is certainly enjoyable *on some level* to read.
22:10:15 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: codata codata codata
22:11:19 <Sgeo__> Don't know how a facility works == there is no facility to do what that facility does?
22:11:34 <oerjan> for one thing, it allows you to represent processes that might go on forever, as long as finding the _next_ item always terminates
22:11:38 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Even ignoring codata and such -- I'm pretty sure you could write some games without recursive functions.
22:12:01 <cpressey> Tic-tac-toe is total, for example.
22:12:06 <oerjan> indeed there are many games which terminate
22:12:23 <cpressey> (more interesting than tic tac toe)
22:12:34 <oerjan> chess is also terminating
22:12:53 <Sgeo__> Does finding the next item have to provably always terminate?
22:12:58 <cpressey> oerjan: only because there is a recursion limit :)
22:15:17 <oerjan> cpressey: well yeah and also a 3-time repetition rule
22:16:57 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, you can get around that with the Thue-Morse sequence and the knights.
22:17:07 <oerjan> Sgeo__: there is afaik also a trick you can do for nonterminating things - use a codata based monad of the form data Delay a = Now a | Later (Delay a)
22:17:33 <cpressey> I'm more familiar with Büchi automata than codata, but you could probably use them instead to model a process that is supposed to "never" terminate, like a web server.
22:17:48 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: are they really repeating _whole_ subgames? i always assumed it was just 3 repeating positions, at any time
22:18:21 <oerjan> Sgeo__: that way if a computation cannot be proved to terminate, you can just do pieces of it at a time
22:19:48 <zzo38> There is a 50-move rule in chess, also.
22:19:57 <oerjan> Sgeo__: anyway in dependent typing they like to have the default be that things always terminate, because otherwise you get trouble with checking the _proofs_ of things
22:20:01 <zzo38> (Although you could ignore that and other rules in some causes if you need to)
22:20:16 <oerjan> zzo38: i assumed that was what cpressey meant by recursion limit
22:20:24 <coppro> only threefold reitition is required to make chess terminate
22:20:34 <Phantom_Hoover> In any case, you're assuming that a termination checker will notice that all chess games terminate.
22:20:46 <coppro> I think also only 50 moves is required as well
22:21:03 <coppro> (that is to say that either rule will guarantee a conclusion
22:21:26 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: this being dependent typing, you probably have to write the proof yourself
22:22:46 <Sgeo__> Funnily enough, noone sane is here
22:23:38 <oerjan> Sgeo__: basically iiuc if your _proof_ is itself well-typed and is known to terminate, then you don't have to check it at runtime, but this breaks down if your proof may not terminate for all values
22:23:43 <cpressey> But all the masochists are too busy writing stuff in C++.
22:24:19 <Sgeo__> if i understand correctly
22:30:44 <cpressey> Heh, codata actually seems pretty neat.
22:31:08 <oerjan> it's like lazy data structures in a way
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22:31:50 <oerjan> things still need to terminate, but only as far as you evaluate them
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22:33:27 <cpressey> oerjan: What do you mean by "things"?
22:33:58 <zzo38> Now instead of C++ you have to write things in C+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-.....
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22:37:36 <oerjan> cpressey: evaluations/pure computations?
22:38:06 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: um i think i'm getting close to over my head here...
22:39:09 <oerjan> but with induction you build things up by assembling a finite number of pieces
22:39:39 <oerjan> with coinduction you deconstruct things by taking them _apart_ to a finite level down
22:39:46 <coppro> cheater99: seems accurate
22:40:32 <cpressey> oerjan: Is it the case that codata must be infinite? It seems like it should be (being the dual of data, which must be finite)
22:41:06 <oerjan> cpressey: i don't think so, more like data is a subset of codata
22:42:02 <oerjan> like the rationals are a subset of the computable reals (i think if you use continued fraction representation, they _are_ precisely data and codata versions, respectively)
22:42:44 <oerjan> of course you could easily force codata infinite by not having any base constructors...
22:42:59 <oerjan> data Stream a = Stream a (Stream a)
22:43:09 <cpressey> oerjan: You just blew my mind (or would have, if I had any left.)
22:44:49 <cheater99> has anyone seen the ad for 'legend of aang'?
22:44:49 <cheater99> is it only me or is the part about them having to join their forces
22:44:49 <cheater99> just like the intro to captain planet???
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22:49:15 <Sgeo__> Legend of Aang? Um, the series is finished
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22:52:50 <zzo38> Why is charmap broken now?
22:53:09 <Sgeo__> Hmm, apparently, there's a game Legend of Aang
23:01:17 <zzo38> I have a font on my computer named "Aegyptus" and I am unsure how to work it
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23:44:54 <cpressey> Gregor-L: I know W and P, but L?
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23:55:36 <cpressey> Maybe his ferry sunk, and L stands for Lifeboat.
00:00:44 <cpressey> Yes! And his evil twin, being evil, is Left-handed!
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00:06:27 <Sgeo__> What does -W mean? Windows?
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00:06:55 <Sgeo__> (The Phone, not the Work)
00:07:04 <cpressey> L is for Evil Twin Sunk the Ferry I Was On
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01:43:22 <Gregor-P> -L and [no suffix] are currently the same system, since my laptop is my primary machine right now.
01:43:39 <Gregor-P> I have ... a lot of ways to connect to IRC
01:46:51 * Sgeo__ is now in the Futurama-watching room
01:48:50 * Sgeo__ ponders allowing Pharo to accept Ruby syntax
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02:31:26 <Sgeo__> Last week's Futurama is now on, in case anyone missed it. If you missed it, WATCH IT!
02:34:05 <pikhq> THIS CONCEPT OF LAST WEEK CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US
02:35:24 <Sgeo__> {{ I'd respond with "SURELY YOU MEAN", but I didn't misspell "Last week", afaik }}
02:37:43 <olsner> is it a different futurama each week?
02:39:03 <pikhq> Yes; Futurama is airing again.
02:45:11 <Gregor-P> You Euros'll get it in a year or three I'm sure.
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02:49:17 <pikhq> Gregor-P: Internet! Bits! Speed of electricity!
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03:24:32 <olsner> Sgeo__: ok, I'm watching it now
03:25:03 <olsner> on the contrary, it's only just begun
03:41:46 <olsner> hmm, torchwood is a pretty shoddy series
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08:36:20 <oerjan> * Sgeo__ is now in the Futurama-watching room <-- does it have a small shrine?
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13:07:29 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover!
13:09:38 <Sgeo> You mean the project?
13:10:04 <Sgeo> It's live, but development is on hold while I wait for a testing environment
13:12:02 <Sgeo> A futuristic remake of an older game [now defunct] that was in the same environment
13:18:04 <augur> you're only allowed to use alise's haskell on pro-GNOME operating systems.
13:18:14 <Sgeo> http://wiki.activeworlds.com/index.php?title=Mutation
13:18:20 <augur> BECAUSE OF THE GNOME-ADS
13:18:32 <augur> alise's implementaiton.
13:18:48 <augur> you sure dont get the joke
13:20:48 * Sgeo gets the joke, but I assume "alise's" is just unnecessary
13:21:11 <augur> its definite necessary
13:21:22 <augur> otherwise it'd be a pro-sex operating system
13:21:26 <augur> because of all the moan ads
13:21:35 <Phantom_Hoover> I assume it's a play on "Monads", but I don't get where alise comes from.
13:21:50 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: alise has this thing
13:21:56 <augur> jokes about "monad" and "nomad"
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14:18:24 <Sgeo> "Another nasty problem arises if you use a mutable object, i.e., an object
14:18:24 <Sgeo> that can change its hash value over time, as an element of a Set or as a key to
14:18:24 <Sgeo> a Dictionary. Dont do this unless you love debugging!"
14:18:34 <Sgeo> Someone should make an esolang where that's no big deal
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16:46:53 <alise> cellophane illegal
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16:48:26 <alise> pikhq: et establishum
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16:50:44 <pikhq> alise: Malkompren'
16:51:01 <cpressey> And now, we're going to play a track from Cellophane Illegal's new album, "Et Establishum". It's called "Malkompren'"... enjoy.
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16:51:31 <alise> cpressey: actually, those /are/ awesome band and album names ...
16:53:06 <alise> "This track is 7:06 long, which is the same as SIX MINUTES AND SIXTY-SIX SECONDS. And if you play it backwards, it sounds like 'Malkompren'', a song by Cellophane Illegal, a band known to be Satanists -- one of their tracks is 6 minutes and 66 seconds long. Coincidence? You decide."
16:54:52 <alise> pikhq: Apparently, fast images in Super Hi-Vision may cause motion sickness.
16:55:04 <alise> This source is Gizmodo via NHK, so credibility is, uh, zero.
16:55:27 <pikhq> I'd trust NHK, but not Gizmodo...
16:55:44 <pikhq> However, I suggest that this is bullshit.
16:55:44 <alise> pikhq: I said NHK because of the language barrier.
16:56:05 <alise> i.e., NHK said it, Gizmodo fucked with it until it sounded hyperbolic.
16:57:11 <pikhq> It's just 4320p; *effectively* the same resolution as analog IMAX.
16:57:37 <pikhq> (of course, comparing digital and analog video when both are high-quality is fairly subjective)
16:57:46 <alise> Incidentally, Toy Story 3 is good.
16:58:01 <pikhq> It's a Pixar film.
16:58:34 <alise> It was Touched by the Holy Hand of His Holiness Steve.
17:00:25 <alise> May I present Exhibit A?
17:00:46 <alise> Barbie: Authority should derive from the consent of the governed, not from threat of force!
17:01:12 <alise> (No, Barbie is nothing like this in it for anything other than this one line.)
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17:08:08 <alise> [Five-Minute "Threshold"]
17:08:09 <alise> Janeway: This event will stand with some of the most memorable in history.
17:08:09 <alise> Paris: Yeah. Wilbur Wright...Neil Armstrong...Zephram Cochrane ...
17:08:09 <alise> Janeway: I was thinking "Spock's Brain"..."Shades of Gray"..."Let He Who is Without Sin..."...
17:16:58 <alise> So the one flaw of my lovely laptop is that it is not powerful enough to decode 1080p. I think 720p slows it down a bit too.
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17:22:46 * alise downloads "All Good Things..." from that uber-high-quality rip of TNG to review the quality. THESE KINDS OF THINGS ARE IMPORTANT!
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17:23:28 <alise> Hello Gregor-Urine.
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17:25:02 <pikhq> alise: If it is absolutely super-awesome, then glee.
17:25:08 <oerjan> <augur> BECAUSE OF THE GNOME-ADS
17:25:19 * oerjan whacks augur with the saucepan ===\__/
17:26:34 <alise> pikhq: It has a downside, though. Wesley, too, will be in high-definition.
17:27:04 <pikhq> alise: As will beardless Riker.
17:27:29 <alise> pikhq: Yes, but you can avoid him more than you can avoid Wesley.
17:27:51 <alise> This is ridiculous, how can two episodes be 1.6 GiB?
17:27:57 <alise> Why am I not downloading at a greater speed? >_>
17:28:18 <alise> Let's see how well mplayer can play partial files.
17:28:22 <pikhq> Best thing about moving back to CO: REAL. GOD. DAMNED. INTERNET.
17:28:29 <pikhq> And mplayer can play partial files very well.
17:28:40 <alise> This is America, so let me guess: 3 Kb/s, on a good day?
17:28:57 <pikhq> I think it's sitting at about 40 megabits/sec.
17:29:06 <alise> ...Oh, the uploader merged "All Good Things..."'s two parts.
17:29:15 <alise> So I was downloading Preemptive Strike, too.
17:29:21 <oerjan> in CO, god is real, but the internet is damned
17:29:37 <alise> pikhq: Whfuck you.
17:29:44 <alise> (1) Fuck you all I have is 8 Mb
17:29:49 <alise> (2) I'm moving in see you soon brb plane
17:30:29 <alise> Is there a ... takeWhileFold?
17:30:35 <alise> e.g., "take while sum < 3"
17:30:57 <alise> takeWhileFold (+) (< 3) lst
17:32:05 <oerjan> um what's tested the sum or the list values
17:32:30 <oerjan> oh and what's returned, for that matter
17:33:20 <alise> oh with 0 in there too
17:33:41 <oerjan> obviously there is no single such predefined functino
17:33:46 <alise> basically we see if "fold[rl] (+) 0 [] < 3" fits, else sub "take 1 lst" for []
17:33:54 <alise> else sub "take 2 lst"
17:34:32 <oerjan> alise: can you give an actual _example_, your explanation is not clear
17:35:15 <alise> takeWhile tries [], take 1 lst, take 2 lst, take 3 lst, ..., lst
17:35:26 <alise> until "condition (take N lst)" satisfies
17:35:34 <alise> then returns that list
17:35:38 <oerjan> i want an example with actual _output_
17:36:14 <alise> takeWhileFoldl (+) 0 (< 10) [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10]
17:36:24 <alise> because foldl (+) 0 [1,2,3,4] == 10
17:37:04 <oerjan> um don't you mean [1,2,3]
17:37:22 <oerjan> 10 is not < 10, after all
17:38:31 <alise> erm, what's the thing for "all but last element" again?
17:39:03 <alise> hmm, that doesn't actually help here
17:39:15 <alise> this is quite a subtle function, it involves sending information back across recursions
17:39:28 <oerjan> if you want to make that function actually _lazy_, then it's probably best to write it directly...
17:41:00 <alise> hmm, what do I need to get RandomGen?
17:41:05 <alise> didn't it use to be in prelude?
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17:45:39 <oerjan> takeWhileFoldl op acc p (x:xs) | p acc = x : takeWhileFoldl op (acc `op` x) p xs; takeWhileFoldl _ _ _ _ = []
17:45:44 <cpressey> alise: btw, did you know that seq, much like the CAKE, is a LIE???!?
17:45:55 <alise> cpressey: In that it doesn't do deep sequencing?
17:46:10 <alise> oerjan: I obtained this:
17:46:12 <alise> takeWhileFoldl :: (a -> b -> a) -> a -> (a -> Bool) -> [b] -> [b]
17:46:12 <alise> takeWhileFoldl f _ _ [] = []
17:46:13 <alise> takeWhileFoldl f z c (x:xs)
17:46:13 <alise> | c (f z x) = x : takeWhileFoldl f (f z x) c xs
17:46:50 <oerjan> yeah i forgot to use acc `op` x in the test
17:47:26 <oerjan> the first and last lines can still be combined like i did
17:48:43 <alise> grr, how do you show a Rational as a decimal again?
17:48:46 <cpressey> alise: seq is a lie in two ways: (1) in the absence of either of its arguments being "undefined", it's semantically a NOP. (2) even in practice, a Haskell implementation could evaluate its arguments in a different order, e.g. if it thought it that reduction ordering was more efficient
17:49:10 <cpressey> oerjan filled me in on this LIE yesterday :)
17:49:18 <oerjan> also giving f z x a name may help
17:51:16 <oerjan> alise: fromRational to get a Double? >:)
17:52:09 <alise> *Main> fmap fromRational (approxE 10000)
17:54:25 <alise> in fact, it seems to be approximating e-1.
17:55:00 <cpressey> Also, I think I have to disagree with, or at least modify, the characterization of monads yesterday. They do *in practice* force an evaluation order, even if they do it *by* imposing an order on data flow. Maybe it's not true for some weird or trivial monads out there -- but those would be the exceptions.
17:55:19 <alise> cpressey: no, actually
17:55:20 <alise> a lot of useful monads are lazy
17:55:31 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: no, lists aren't monads
17:55:58 <cpressey> OK, then I still don't understand them. No surprise.
17:56:40 <oerjan> cpressey: monads force an order of _effects_. even in IO, evaluation of pure values is not always forced.
17:57:11 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: >>= is defined for [] a.
17:57:15 <oerjan> !haskell do x <- return undefined; print "No evaluation of x here"
17:57:15 <cpressey> But if it *is* forced, it's going to happen in the order that the monad establishes. Right?
17:57:22 <alise> cpressey: maybe you'd have more luck reading the theoretical definition
17:57:26 <EgoBot> "No evaluation of x here"
17:57:53 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, the theoretical definition says nothing about evaluation order.
17:58:56 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: it doesn't say anything about evaluation
17:59:02 <alise> cpressey: Pfft. Philistine!
17:59:09 <alise> s/#/just delete the damn line/
17:59:09 <pikhq> cpressey: Only specific monads say anything at all about evaluation.
17:59:53 <alise> It says nothing about turnips either.
18:00:02 <oerjan> !haskell do x <- return undefined; putStr "No evaluation of x here; "; putStr (show x); putStr " we never get to here though"
18:00:10 <EgoBot> No evaluation of x here; *** Exception: Prelude.undefined
18:01:19 <Deewiant> !haskell concatMap undefined []
18:01:32 <pikhq> Well, [] >>= _ = []
18:01:41 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: the undefined function never gets any arguments passed, so never needs to be evaluated
18:01:46 <alise> It is not happy about appearing there.
18:01:56 <pikhq> (rather than, y'know, [] >>= x = x `seq` [] -- or some such)
18:02:20 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, got that, but I didn't know that undefined :: (b -> m a) worked.
18:02:27 <alise> Can ALSA function if PulseAudio is running?
18:02:36 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Well, yeah; undefined :: a
18:02:37 <alise> i.e., if I remove the bypass it has to PulseAudio, what will happen if I play audio to ALSA?
18:02:49 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, didn't realise that applied to functions as well. Do now.
18:02:57 <pikhq> Functions possess types.
18:03:00 <cpressey> What I don't understand is the use case for writing a monad which does not establish an order. What does a "lazy state" monad do, except save you from an explicit additional argument to your function? In that, using a monad is a lot like writing pointfree code (a practice with which I do not often agree.)
18:03:04 <pikhq> Hence, a includes functions.
18:03:38 <pikhq> cpressey: It saves you from an explicit additional argument to your set of functions.
18:03:48 <pikhq> That is the entire point of the State monad.
18:04:00 <alise> Riker: Hey baby, what's your sign?
18:04:03 <alise> Troi: You've known me for twelve years. Will, I know you care about me, but... well....
18:04:03 <alise> Troi: It's your beard. It just isn't sufficient anymore.
18:04:03 <alise> Worf: In case you can't tell, Commander, I'm grinning. But it's hard to see that through my thick, thick beard.
18:04:12 <alise> cpressey: Some code utilising lazy State would be hideously ugly without it.
18:05:43 <cpressey> alise: Not really a compelling argument. How much of that is the 'do' sugar?
18:06:10 <alise> cpressey: Not much at all.
18:06:26 <alise> When you're just calling other functions that use that state and don't mutate it yourself, it helps a lot because you can completely elide it.
18:06:30 <pikhq> cpressey: The do sugar is really, really thin.
18:06:42 <alise> When you're mutating state inamongst other calls, it isolates this change, rather than making you e.g. pass state' instead of state around everywhere.
18:08:07 <pikhq> About the only thing that's even vaguely "thick" is that pattern matches get a "_ -> fail" case added...
18:08:07 <alise> <alise> Can ALSA function if PulseAudio is running?
18:08:08 <alise> <alise> i.e., if I remove the bypass it has to PulseAudio, what will happen if I play audio to ALSA?
18:08:10 <cpressey> alise: When not using monads, when you calling some other function that doesn't use that state, you just don't include that explicit argument.
18:08:21 <alise> pikhq: Whoa, they do? I didn't realise.
18:08:35 <alise> cpressey: That DO use state, I said.
18:08:54 <alise> pikhq: Now answer my ALSA question :P
18:09:03 <pikhq> alise: If you have mixing enabled in ALSA, *yes*.
18:09:12 <pikhq> (either hardware mixing or dmix)
18:09:21 <alise> pikhq: Is it enabled by default if I have PulseAudio in a typical crapbuntu setup?
18:09:33 <pikhq> alise: Ubuntu should have dmix by default, yes.
18:09:41 <alise> Even if it's a PulseAudio stack?
18:09:56 <pikhq> Actually, I think ALSA now just makes dmix on by default...
18:10:08 <alise> Okay, two new questions:
18:10:17 <alise> (1) How do I disable ALSA's redirection? I've forgotten what file it's in.
18:10:29 <alise> (2) What's the best/quickest/etc. ao/vo for mplayer?
18:10:37 <alise> -ao sdl seems pretty good, but what about -vo?
18:10:52 <alise> Using built-in Intel sound and video cards.
18:10:55 <pikhq> Dunno, -ao alsa or -ao oss or -ao sdl, and -vo gl or -vo xv
18:11:23 <alise> SDL must necessarily be worse than ALSA/OSS, yeah, because it outputs there?
18:11:48 <alise> I wonder with vo is default.
18:12:06 <pikhq> Probably something like -vo x11
18:12:12 <pikhq> Or -vo xv or -vo gl
18:13:03 <alise> ISTR -vo gl being slow.
18:13:32 <fizzie> "-vo xv" is good if it works.
18:13:38 <fizzie> Hardware colorspace conversions and so on.
18:14:01 <alise> But for just straight playback? And could it possibly "work" without actually... working?
18:14:06 <alise> You know, emulating it somehow.
18:14:41 <fizzie> I... guess it could, but I think usually if Xv is supported, it's supported mostly on hardware.
18:14:55 <alise> Well, it works; *should* it work, on this built-in Intel card?
18:15:06 <fizzie> Sure, sure. At least most likely.
18:15:38 <fizzie> On NVIDIA cards, there's the (old) xvmc and (new) vdpau stuff to move even the video stream decoding, and IDCT, and other such stuff, on hardware; but I have no idea how (and if) that's supported on Intel graphics and Linux.
18:16:21 <alise> These GPUs are... not the most powerful.
18:17:42 <alise> Okay; how do I make ALSA reload its config?
18:18:04 <fizzie> Also, I guess "xvinfo" will tell you mostly what the hardware supports, if you're curious.
18:18:23 <fizzie> And I was under the impression that all libalsa-using processes read the .asoundrc fluff on startup, and that's about it.
18:19:03 <alise> /usr/share/alsa/alsa.conf.
18:19:06 <alise> More a server configuration file.
18:22:10 <alise> Can someone please tell me exactly ONE reason not to remove PulseAudio and just use ALSA+dmix?
18:22:48 <pikhq> Some idiot feels that adding a layer of abstraction for no benefit is a good idea.
18:23:26 <alise> I'm just shocked that so many people clamour to bundle this technology which does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING FOR YOU, AT ALL into their distributions.
18:23:33 <alise> Even X11 does more.
18:23:47 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Takes audio in. Mixes it together. Sends it off to ALSA or some other device, which can already mix audio.
18:24:06 <alise> Okay, it can also do EQ and stuff on the audio. Which, you know, is totally unnecessary as everything that you'd want to EQ can already do EQ.
18:24:16 <alise> Takes up RAM and disk.
18:25:12 <alise> In fact, the role of PulseAudio in a typical Ubuntu user's life is akin to that of Ubuntu One's: annoying and pointless.
18:25:47 <alise> As such, I will hereby remove both.
18:27:33 <fizzie> It can also do things like networked audio, but your regular user won't have much use for that.
18:27:55 <alise> pikhq: Projects for an Insane Man And/Or Woman Who Inexplicably Wishes to Make Linux Slightly Better: (1) Develop an X11-compatible, accelerated graphics server that doesn't suck. (2) Develop an independent libX11 implementation exclusively for (1) that sucks... well, less. (Optionally libxcb, too, although nothing uses that.) (3) Develop a sound system that doesn't suck. Uh, you could just use OSSv4.
18:27:57 <Deewiant> It has a convenient interface for per-process volume controlling.
18:28:15 <alise> Deewiant: That's nice. If only it didn't make everything else suck.
18:28:33 <alise> Such as latency (really really really sucks for some hardware), not-having-a-bloated-piece-of-shit-running-ness, ...
18:28:46 <Deewiant> It mixes my audio without causing sound quality problems like ALSA did by default (and I couldn't find a way to fix).
18:28:47 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yes. It's just not very interesting to talk about.
18:29:09 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: You don't say things when I talk about things I like. Presumably because they don't annoy you, so you don't think to say anything.
18:29:31 <alise> I believe I speak of things that suck probably less than you think.
18:30:12 <alise> (Nor do you complain to other people who complain things suck, e.g. pikhq and cpressey, although their complaints usually happen after I make one.)
18:30:35 <alise> Anyway, I find /your/ complaints, about my complaints, annoying too.
18:31:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, I find your complaints about my complaints about your complaints annoying.
18:32:54 <Phantom_Hoover> No, better. I have complaints about your complaints about my complaints about your complaints.
18:33:22 <alise> Now why do I lack asoundconf(1) ...
18:34:22 <alise> By default, asoundconf's configuration file is ~/.asoundrc.asoundconf
18:34:23 <alise> and must be included in ~/.asoundrc. Open this file to make sure it is!
18:36:15 <alise> # Specify default video driver (see -vo help for a list).
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18:38:40 <fizzie> Deewiant: There was something I was going to say to you. I've been /wii'ing you a couple of times to see if you happened to be around.
18:39:16 <alise> Is wiiing an effective way of seeing whether Deewiant is around?
18:39:18 <Deewiant> I'm usually around, I just haven't said much on freenode recently
18:39:22 <alise> Does he appear in the wii? :|
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18:41:12 <zzo38> I wrote a program it does not work with Windows named pipes, but it works with UNIX named pipes if it is compiled with Cygwin.
18:42:09 <zzo38> And I don't know how to develop an X11-compatible, accelerated graphics server that doesn't suck.
18:42:30 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, this is alise-suck, which is a nebulous concept.
18:43:23 <alise> I think Phantom_Hoover has some sort of automatic system whereby he automatically likes everything I dislike and automatically ignores anybody concurring with me.
18:43:56 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I'm not saying it doesn't suck, only that I'm not entirely sure how you define suckiness.
18:44:16 <alise> zzo38: It shouldn't suck by not sucking.
18:44:40 <zzo38> alise: That doesn't help, because I still don't know how to develop accelerated graphics server, anyways.
18:44:55 <alise> Gah, anyone know how to get the old ALSA mixer in the Ubuntu panel?
18:45:03 <alise> The new-fangled one only does Pulse.
18:45:07 <fizzie> Deewiant: Well, you had "Work" and then "Going home" (or some-such) as away messages.
18:45:19 <fizzie> Deewiant: On the other hand, I have no longer any clue what it was I was going to say.
18:45:44 <Deewiant> It helps to just say it and wait, perhaps hours, for an answer
18:47:24 <alise> ALSA Gnome panel applet in Ubuntu 9.10 Karmic
18:48:22 <alise> Whoa. I used the Pulse volume control and my GTK reverted to Raleigh.
18:48:24 <alise> How does that work?
18:48:32 <alise> Oh, because I removed the applet. Uh.
18:48:34 <alise> How does that work?
18:48:47 <alise> Aaand now it's back apart from X-Chat.
18:50:43 <alise> Does "aptitude download" apply patches?
18:53:49 <cpressey> fizzie: Is there some straightforward way to ask C for an integer type that's the same size as a machine pointer for the architecture? (would be nice for what i'm doing, but i can also live without it)
18:54:47 <alise> it's at least as big as a pointer
18:54:56 <alise> #include <stdint.h>
18:55:00 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
18:55:04 <alise> uintptr_t is unsigned
18:55:25 <alise> hey what's the kosher way to build a debian package given its debian-patched source directory?
18:56:39 <zzo38> cpressey: Use sizeof() to check these things?
18:57:06 <zzo38> Like, sizeof(void*)==sizeof(int)?1:-5
18:57:09 <cpressey> zzo38: that was my backup plan.
18:57:30 <fizzie> There's that intptr_t, yes, though I think it's optionallish. Of course everyone with sensible pointers (and a big enough integer type) does provide it, since it's so easy.
18:57:42 <cpressey> if C89, might have to resort to that.
18:57:47 <zzo38> struct _check_sizes { int z[sizeof(void*)==sizeof(int)?1:-5]; };
18:58:20 <fizzie> Compile-time asserts like that are always so awesome.
18:58:49 <cpressey> will that actually be evaluated at compile time?
18:59:02 <zzo38> cpressey: Yes it will be evaluated at compile tile
19:00:03 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
19:00:10 <alise> cpressey: I'd just use intptr_t.
19:00:13 <alise> Everything supports it. More or less.
19:00:25 <alise> 0% [1 libart-2.0-dev 9506/75.8kB 12%]
19:00:36 <alise> It was going at some three thousand bytes per second.
19:01:02 <oerjan> tile-based compilation
19:02:51 <alise> pikhq: Okay, my video is lagging. Or my audio. Severely. alsa/xv. mplayer. What. Why.
19:03:00 <cpressey> I'll probably go with defaulting to intptr_t, but making it configurable in the code gen.
19:03:05 <alise> Not an uber-high-quality file, either.
19:03:32 <cpressey> And asserting that it can hold an int and a ptr in the generated source
19:04:05 <zzo38> cpressey: What are you making now?
19:04:05 <alise> Movie-Aspect is 1.30:1 - prescaling to correct movie aspect. --mplayer
19:04:57 <cpressey> zzo38: O - this is for Eightebed. A "safe" language without GC. because Gregor said it couldn't be done :)
19:05:15 <cpressey> (I'm oversimplifying of course)
19:05:40 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
19:06:07 <alise> The following packages are BROKEN:
19:06:10 <alise> The following NEW packages will be installed:
19:06:10 <alise> libsdl1.2debian-alsa
19:06:10 <alise> The following packages will be REMOVED:
19:06:10 <alise> libsdl1.2debian-pulseaudio{a}
19:06:13 <alise> I am violating the Holy Creed.
19:06:26 <alise> *Die, PulseAudio! Die!
19:06:56 <ais523> hmm, it's a strong dependency, not a recommendation?
19:06:59 <alise> 99.99%, yet it refuses to believe the torrent is completed.
19:07:02 <alise> 45 seconds at ... heh, this is fun.
19:07:07 <alise> ais523: all of ubuntu-desktop is
19:07:13 <alise> ubuntu-desktop does nothing, of course
19:07:16 <ais523> used to be, but I thought they changed it
19:07:23 <alise> except install more useless crap ubuntu adds each upgrade
19:08:28 <zzo38> Write a different distribution if you don't like it...... (I don't particularly like Ubuntu either)
19:12:41 <alise> zzo38: Yeah, uh, not that easy.
19:12:46 <alise> It's easier to complain.
19:12:52 <alise> pikhq: Could that rescaling be slowing down mplayer?
19:13:21 <zzo38> Yes it is easier to complain probably, but one day if I get new computer, I like to write Linux distribution, too (I must have told you that before?).
19:14:40 <alise> Yeah, a few times.
19:17:42 -!- calamari has joined.
19:17:57 <Gregor-P> What this world needs is more distributions with near-0 userbases.
19:18:59 <oerjan> Nullix, the POSIX compatible OS with _no_ users. also, no copies.
19:21:59 <alise> http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20061122013747/memoryalpha/en/images/0/0c/KIRK_IS_A_JERK.jpg
19:22:40 <zzo38> I write Linux distribution because I want to do so, in order to make it improvment in the way that is in my opinion. And then maybe some other people can use or maybe not
19:24:29 <alise> debian/rules:18: /usr/share/cdbs/1/rules/patchsys-quilt.mk: No such file or directory
19:24:29 <alise> /usr/share/gnome-pkg-tools/1/rules/gnome-get-source.mk:31: warning: overriding commands for target `get-orig-source'
19:24:30 <alise> /usr/share/gnome-pkg-tools/1/rules/gnome-get-source.mk:31: warning: ignoring old commands for target `get-orig-source'
19:24:30 <alise> make: *** No rule to make target `/usr/share/cdbs/1/rules/patchsys-quilt.mk'. Stop.
19:24:30 <alise> dpkg-buildpackage: error: fakeroot debian/rules clean gave error exit status 2
19:24:35 <calamari> Gregor, can't remember whether I asked.. did you root your phone?
19:24:58 <calamari> Gregor, got debian working without a chroot, it was very easy, dunno what my problem was before
19:25:43 <Gregor-P> Put that shtuff on the Market! 8-D
19:25:46 <zzo38> Window manager shall include taskbar with clock, tiling and floating windows, background can be solid color or background picture (the background picture must be non-animated and the same size as the screen, because stretch is not available), and not much else other than many keyboard functions and mouse chording to manipulate windows and signals. (The taskbar needs only the list of windows open and the time, nothing else)
19:25:52 <calamari> so that should make it easier for me to finish the egobf package, since I don't have to deal with bionic now
19:26:07 <calamari> Gregor, not going to pay $25 for that, sorry!
19:26:24 <zzo38> And if you have multiple screens, you can change the taskbar color and background color on each one
19:26:51 <Gregor-P> calamari: How about I pay, host the archive, and get all the credit? :P
19:26:59 <Gregor-P> calamari: How about I pay, host the archive, and get all the credit? :P
19:27:28 <calamari> cool that's what a friend of mine just got too
19:27:29 <alise> Why can't calamari just publish an .ipkg? Or whatever they are.
19:28:22 <Gregor-P> Putting it on the Market is just a convenience.
19:28:37 <calamari> lol.. a package that is a glorified shell script
19:29:35 <Gregor-P> calamari: A distinct inability to paste into IRC ;)
19:29:37 <calamari> I have been running cyanogenmod so long I have lost touch with the real world
19:30:37 <calamari> could swear I pasted in it before
19:31:24 -!- calamari- has joined.
19:32:15 -!- iamcal has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
19:34:17 <calamari> oh.. right.. slashes in irc are bad
19:34:46 <calamari-> ...... /usr/bin:/usr/sbin:/bin:/sbin:/system/sbin:/system/bin:/system/xbin:/system/xbin
19:35:45 <alise> "//foo" sends "/foo".
19:35:50 <alise> "/say /foo" sends "/foo".
19:36:19 <alise> Gregor-P: I'm selectively installing old versions of some Debian (well, Ubuntu) packages, then installing a patched version of an old package that depends on them.
19:36:22 <alise> This includes important GNOME libraries.
19:36:26 <alise> Am I insane, or doubly insane?
19:36:36 <alise> Also, the final outcome of this insanity is ... a sound mixer.
19:37:16 <calamari> say isn't a valid command for me
19:37:26 <alise> "//" might still work, though. Unless you tried that too.
19:37:37 <calamari> that's okay.. the leading dot worked
19:37:51 <Gregor-P> alise: Neither, I've done that before, usually works.
19:38:06 <calamari> Gregor, anyhow.. do you have /datalocal/bin in your PATH?
19:38:13 <alise> Gregor-P: I'm pretty sure this is /downgrading some parts of GNOME to a lower release of GNOME/, though.
19:38:15 <alise> Actual *libraries*.
19:39:03 <alise> Wow, pidgin sounds work now.
19:39:14 <alise> This is not a good thing. :P
19:40:12 <calamari> that's okay.. is /data mounted rw?
19:41:10 <fizzie> / /foo works on some clients too.
19:41:31 <fizzie> (But, again, probably not in that one.)
19:45:02 <pikhq> Very simple monad, too.
19:45:13 <pikhq> Only one simpler is Identity.
19:45:18 <pikhq> (Maybe without Nothing)
19:46:07 <pikhq> Simple failure handling.
19:46:33 <pikhq> *Mostly* demonstrating a simple monad.
19:47:07 <pikhq> It could also hypothetically be the bottom part of a transformer stack if for some reason you wanted a monad as the bottom that doesn't have a non-transformer version.
19:47:57 <pikhq> I imagine monad transformers break his brain.
19:48:32 <calamari-> hmm space does work, not sure why it didn't before
19:48:35 <Gregor-P> calamari: Yes, and you need to highlight me to get my attention :P
19:48:38 <pikhq> It's a type constructor which takes a monad and results in a monad.
19:49:09 <pikhq> For instance, ContT is a monad transformer. ContT IO is a monad.
19:49:09 -!- calamari- has quit (Quit: Bye).
19:49:53 <pikhq> And StateT Cont is a time-travel monad.
19:50:12 <pikhq> (note: these are not exactly simple examples, except for demonstrating how one gets a monad out of monad transformers. :P)
19:50:38 <alise> Okay ... new volume control has unbelievably ugly icon.
19:51:25 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: With StateT Cont, the state in the StateT is *part* of the continuation. So, every time you use a continuation, you end up using the state in that continuation.
19:51:44 <pikhq> In effect, you are jumping forward and backwards in the computation when you use a continuation in StateT Cont.
19:53:37 <pikhq> (well, it's StateT s (Cont y), but that's just because, y'know, monads actually have values "in" them. :P)
20:00:07 -!- Gregor-P has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
20:04:08 <alise> Does anyone know the unending horror that is GNOME?
20:06:07 -!- kar8nga has joined.
20:08:19 <alise> No, just ... be able to tell me how to replace a panel's icons.
20:08:42 <alise> Yes. The first bit is the bit I require assistance with.
20:09:32 <Phantom_Hoover> /usr/share/pixmaps or /usr/share/icons might be a place to start.
20:09:41 <alise> I know /that/ much.
20:09:50 <alise> ./ubuntu-mono-light/status/22/audio-volume-muted-panel.svg
20:09:51 <alise> ./ubuntu-mono-light/status/22/audio-volume-muted-blocking-panel.svg
20:09:51 <alise> ./ubuntu-mono-light/status/22/audio-volume-low-panel.svg
20:09:51 <alise> ./ubuntu-mono-light/status/22/audio-volume-medium-panel.svg
20:09:51 <alise> ./ubuntu-mono-light/status/22/audio-volume-high-panel.svg
20:09:51 <alise> ./ubuntu-mono-light/status/22/audio-volume-low-zero-panel.svg
20:09:55 <alise> are the ones I need to replace.
20:09:58 <alise> I just need to find what I need to replcae the,.
20:10:36 <alise> Those are correct.
20:16:48 <oerjan> !haskell import Control.Monad.State; import Control.Monad.Cont; newtype Wrap x y = Wrap (x (Wrap x y) -> y); main = print . flip runCont id . flip evalStateT 0 $ do (l, Wrap cont) <- callCC (\cont -> return ([], Wrap cont)); s <- get; put (s+1); if length l < 10 then cont (s:l, Wrap cont) else return l -- now if this works on first try...
20:17:35 <oerjan> except - those _shouldn't_ have been changing values D:
20:20:27 <oerjan> !haskell import Control.Monad.State; import Control.Monad.Cont; newtype Wrap x y = Wrap (x (Wrap x y) -> y); main = print . flip runCont id . flip evalStateT 0 $ do (l, Wrap cont) <- lift callCC (\cont -> return ([], Wrap cont)); s <- get; put (s+1); if length l < 10 then cont (s:l, Wrap cont) else return l
20:22:00 <zzo38> Have you seen a chess puzzle game where you have to mate in infinity plus fifteen?
20:22:28 <oerjan> !haskell import Control.Monad.State; import Control.Monad.Cont; newtype Wrap x y = Wrap (x (Wrap x y) -> y); main = print . flip runCont id . flip evalStateT 0 $ do (l, Wrap cont) <- lift $ callCC (\cont -> return ([], Wrap cont)); s <- get; put (s+1); if length l < 10 then lift $ cont (s:l, Wrap cont) else return l
20:23:44 <oerjan> pikhq: apparently the callCC method for StateT Cont is defined in such a way that it preserves the state too. if i use an explicit lifted callCC from the underlying Cont monad instead, _then_ the state time-travels.
20:24:14 <ais523> oerjan: StateT stores the state /outside/ the other monad, doesn't it?
20:24:23 <ais523> just like StateT Parser doesn't backtrack the state
20:24:27 <ais523> that's why Parsec needs its own state
20:24:38 <alise> ais523: you should fix my computer
20:24:49 <ais523> alise: how is it broken?
20:25:23 <alise> ais523: inexplicably, no matter how many times I replace icons, my (installed from older version of gnome) mixer applet doesn't acknowledge these new icons
20:25:32 <oerjan> ais523: um i didn't think Parsec _needed_ its own user state, it was just convenient to include it with the rest it has to track...
20:25:32 <alise> and I cannot figure out why; perhaps it is requesting specifically .png, not .svg, but I doubt that
20:25:59 <ais523> alise: the obvious conclusion is that Ubuntu has caught the recent icon vulnerability from Windows
20:26:11 <ais523> also, where are you replacing the icons?
20:26:18 <oerjan> ais523: and _no_ state transformer can do anything "outside" the transformed monad
20:26:20 <alise> ais523: /usr/share/icons; I've tried Humanity, Humanity-Dark, ubuntu-mono-dark
20:26:36 -!- Sgeo has left (?).
20:26:51 -!- Sgeo has joined.
20:27:00 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: there was a hugely exploited vulnerability that was a bug in icon processing
20:27:08 <ais523> although it was exploited indirectly via .pif and .lnk files
20:27:16 <ais523> Microsoft issued an out-of-band patch on Monday
20:27:19 <ais523> and it wouldn't, I was joking
20:27:51 <pikhq> oerjan: Still the timetravel monad. :)
20:28:50 <zzo38> Windows is badly designed
20:31:58 <oerjan> instance (MonadCont m) => MonadCont (StateT s m) where callCC f = StateT $ \s -> callCC $ \c -> runStateT (f (\a -> StateT $ \s' -> c (a, s'))) s
20:32:58 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: I don't know. Maybe because they are bad programmers and not opensource
20:33:33 <pikhq> Windows is horribly designed, and they don't update their BSD libraries that often.
20:33:42 <oerjan> it explicitly includes the StateT state in what's passed to the "underlying" continuation from the lower monad
20:34:13 <pikhq> oerjan: Soley to reduce the confusion caused by time travel, I'm sure.
20:35:21 -!- Gregor-P has joined.
20:37:09 <alise> how do you give the -vo driver options?
20:37:57 <pikhq> -vo driver:options:seperated:by:colons
20:38:33 <pikhq> BTW, -vo drivers,seperated,by,commas,listed,in,order,of,preference
20:39:11 <alise> Hey, libcaca plays the video at full speed just fine.
20:39:13 <alise> There's a solution.
20:39:20 <alise> I'll just get used to watching videos with libcaca.
20:39:47 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:40:01 <alise> Movie-Aspect is 1.30:1 - prescaling to correct movie aspect.
20:40:06 <alise> I'm *sure* that's what's slowing it down!
20:40:18 <alise> How can I disable scaling?
20:40:59 <alise> Nope, still lagged.
20:41:09 <alise> pikhq: Okay, what?
20:41:16 <alise> WHY does Linux suck at AV so much?
20:41:42 * alise tries VLC in case mplayer is being stupid.
20:41:47 <pikhq> alise: What's the full mplayer command line?
20:42:15 <alise> pikhq: Anything! -ao sdl, -ao alsa, -vo xv, -vo sdl, -vo xv:somethingaboutcolorkeysorsomethingthatchangednothing
20:42:45 <alise> I am sceptical that that will be quicker, but I will try.
20:42:47 <pikhq> If that works, your video card officially Sucks Ass.
20:42:55 <alise> Intel video doesn't suck that much.
20:43:08 <alise> It handles Compiz and all that jazz just fine, better than any other card on Linux due to its "open-sourceness".
20:43:26 <alise> $ mplayer -ao sdl -vo x11 "7.25 All Good Things….mkv"
20:43:32 <pikhq> ... Wait, you're running Compiz?
20:43:38 <alise> pikhq: -vo x11 is even worse.
20:43:42 <pikhq> Compiz hates video.
20:43:44 <alise> Yes. Won't the compositing /help/?
20:44:01 <pikhq> If it were implemented well, perhaps. Compiz hateshateshates video.
20:44:11 <alise> I switched to Compiz without compositing.
20:44:27 <alise> Either my perception of mouths is broken, or it still doesn't help.
20:44:31 <alise> I'll enable Metacity compositing?
20:44:35 <alise> Is there a way to bypass the WM somehow?
20:44:49 <pikhq> Hmm. Without compositing it shouldn't matter at all.
20:45:00 <alise> Except that Metacity will be drawing shit itself?
20:45:16 <alise> Under X, how video is finally drawn depends largely on the X window manager in use. With properly installed drivers, and GPU hardware such as supported Intel, ATI, and nVidia chip sets, some window managers, called compositing window managers allow windows to be separately processed and then rendered (or composited). This involves all windows being rendered to separate output buffers in memory first, and later combined to form a complete graphical interfac
20:45:16 <alise> e. While in (video) memory, individual windows can be transformed separately, and accelerated video may be added at this stage using a texture filter, before the window is composited and drawn. XVideo can also be used to accelerate video playback during the drawing of windows using an OpenGL Framebuffer Object or pbuffer.
20:45:17 <alise> Metacity, an X window manager uses compositing in this way. The compositing can also make use of 3D pipelines accelerations such as GLX_EXT_texture_from_pixmap. Among other things, this process allows many video outputs to share the same screen without interfering with each other. Other compositing window managers such as Compiz also use compositing.
20:45:54 <alise> pikhq: I suggest that THIS SHIT SUCKS and what drivers might work well without X11?
20:46:00 <alise> Will fbdev be fast enough?
20:47:26 <alise> pikhq: Gah; can I have a test file to test A/V sync?
20:47:36 <alise> Like one that starts playing audio as soon as the screen turns from black to white?
20:47:41 <alise> Do you know of one?
20:48:40 <alise> pikhq: Apparently you need compositing for Xv to work properly?
20:49:37 <alise> Ξ Windows would so fix this.
20:52:05 <coppro> "Other compositing window managers such as Compiz also use compositing" thanks guys
20:52:08 <pikhq> alise: ... No, don't really need compositing for that.
20:52:25 <pikhq> Well, it's "compositing", but it's absurdly naive 2D compositing.
20:52:30 <alise> pikhq: Okay. Now make it work. :|
20:52:33 <pikhq> And a decade and a half old.
20:52:38 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I gotta name it /some/ Greek letter!
20:52:44 <pikhq> fbdev is actually very fast.
20:52:48 <alise> pikhq: My CPU is 1.33 GHz but it can _definitely_ decode this video.
20:52:52 <alise> pikhq: Yeah, but fbdev is still desynch'ed.
20:52:54 <alise> I suspect audio is the problem.
20:52:58 <alise> As Linux audio SUCKS.
20:53:12 <alise> I could just install OSSv4 but that sucks to do on Ubuntu.
20:53:13 <pikhq> ... Desync'd? That's definitely the audio layer's fault.
20:53:26 <pikhq> Mplayer is ridiculously good at AV sync.
20:53:39 <pikhq> And HOW ARE YOU HAVING TROUBLE WITH THIS
20:53:50 <pikhq> My God, man. I have never had problems with mplayer on Gentoo.
20:54:00 <pikhq> It just works on fucking *Gentoo*!
20:54:13 <alise> pikhq: Well, I only /just/ lobotomised Ubuntu by removing PulseAudio.
20:54:22 <alise> It came out with a higher IQ, but god knows how ALSA is configured.
20:54:23 <ais523> my current only problems with audio are that sometimes after logging on it doesn't work
20:54:27 <ais523> but it does if I log out and back in again
20:54:48 <pikhq> And of course, Gentoo's handling of things like audio involves using the default settings for ALSA.
20:54:56 <pikhq> (which just works)
20:55:10 <alise> Apart from being ALSA.
20:55:22 <pikhq> I have never had problems with it.
20:55:29 <pikhq> Well, apart from the API sucking.
20:55:33 <alise> Right, how about I just install OSSv4 and meditate.
20:55:44 <alise> Low latency, high quality, high sanity.
20:55:52 <alise> pikhq: The /last/ time I did this I Broke Everything and installed Arch.
20:56:12 * alise notes http://insanecoding.blogspot.com/2009/05/perfect-sound-with-oss-version-4.html
20:57:06 <alise> I don't know if OSSv4 supports my card.
20:57:23 <alise> Intel High Definition Audio (Azalia) *BETA*
20:57:26 <alise> Well, that is reassuring.
20:59:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Are there actually any contexts in which one would use monady things on lists?
20:59:40 <cheater99> i am fairly sure i have today met the mother of my children
21:00:06 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: yes
21:00:37 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: stuff
21:01:00 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: it's ... uh, it's like prolog without cut and stuff
21:01:56 <ais523> alise: list monads feel more like multithreading than backtracking
21:02:37 <alise> ais523: do a <- [1,2,3]; b <- [4,5,6]; guard (a+b > 6)
21:02:53 <alise> er, that doesn't quite work
21:02:56 <alise> ais523: do a <- [1,2,3]; b <- [4,5,6]; guard (a+b > 6); return (a,b)
21:04:45 <ais523> presumably monad-fails if the condition is false
21:07:34 <oerjan> !haskell import Control.Monad; main = print $ filterM (const [False,True]) ['a'..'e']
21:07:37 <EgoBot> ["","e","d","de","c","ce","cd","cde","b","be","bd","bde","bc","bce","bcd","bcde","a","ae","ad","ade","ac","ace","acd","acde","ab","abe","abd","abde","abc","abce","abcd","abcde"]
21:08:45 <oerjan> it filters a list, in a monad ;D
21:08:55 -!- tombom_ has joined.
21:10:39 <oerjan> !haskell import Control.Monad; main = print $ filterM (\x -> [x <= 5, x >= 3]) [0..7]
21:11:32 <EgoBot> [[0,1,2,3,4,5],[0,1,2,3,4,5,7],[0,1,2,3,4,5,6],[0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7],[0,1,2,3,4,5],[0,1,2,3,4,5,7],[0,1,2,3,4,5,6],[0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7],[0,1,2,3,4,5],[0,1,2,3,4,5,7],[0,1,2,3,4,5,6],[0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7],[0,1,2,3,4,5],[0,1,2,3,4,5,7],[0,1,2,3,4,5,6],[0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7],[0,1,2,3,4,5],[0,1,2,3,4,5,7],[0,1,2,3,4,5,6],[0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7],[0,1,2,3,4,5],[0,1,2,3,4,5,7],[0,1,2,3,4,5,6],[0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7],[0,1,2,3,4,5],[0,1,2,3,4,5,7],[0,1,2,3,4,5,6],[0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7],[0,1,2,
21:11:41 <ais523> oerjan: looks like it worked, just was slow
21:11:56 <ais523> did EgoBot just DCC you a wall of text?
21:12:13 <oerjan> _maybe_. iirc there's sometimes a bug that makes the output only happen on the _next_ command.
21:14:05 * oerjan misjudged the length of that list
21:14:05 <alise> pikhq: Greek Audio: You ask for a certain number of Hzes and bits. You send raw audio data over the channel. The end.
21:14:31 <oerjan> !haskell import Control.Monad; main = print $ filterM (\x -> [x <= 3, x >= 3]) [0..4]
21:14:34 <EgoBot> [[0,1,2,3],[0,1,2,3,4],[0,1,2,3],[0,1,2,3,4],[0,1,3],[0,1,3,4],[0,1,3],[0,1,3,4],[0,2,3],[0,2,3,4],[0,2,3],[0,2,3,4],[0,3],[0,3,4],[0,3],[0,3,4],[1,2,3],[1,2,3,4],[1,2,3],[1,2,3,4],[1,3],[1,3,4],[1,3],[1,3,4],[2,3],[2,3,4],[2,3],[2,3,4],[3],[3,4],[3],[3,4]]
21:16:45 * oerjan isn't sure he understands that one himself
21:22:35 <alise> "There had been a lot of very bad feeling around here about the way Tasha Yar was sent off. So we were determined to give Wesley a send-off that had real value and something that stayed with us. We finally decided that he would go to the Academy, which I think was Gene's idea [and] the most reasonable and easiest idea, which also keeps him alive for future episodes."
21:22:42 <alise> You know, everyone would have preferred you killed Wesley horribly.
21:23:12 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
21:27:08 <alise> is there any notable sci-fi that has large space ships be portrayed as political countries, rather than by analogy with sea-based vessels?
21:27:20 <alise> i've actually not seen it, unless i'm misremembering - which i tend to do when this tired
21:28:28 <oerjan> !haskell import Control.Monad; import Control.Monad.State; isubs l = flip evalStateT (head l) . filterM (\x -> do prev <- get; if prev > x then return False else join $ lift [return False, do put x; return True]) l; main = print $ isubs [1,3,4,2,3,5]
21:28:29 <alise> the ships would have to be pretty large mind
21:30:37 <oerjan> !haskell import Control.Monad; import Control.Monad.State; isubs l = flip evalStateT (head l) $ filterM (\x -> do prev <- get; if prev > x then return False else join $ lift [return False, do put x; return True]) l; main = print $ isubs [1,3,4,2,3,5]
21:30:40 <EgoBot> [[],[5],[3],[3,5],[2],[2,5],[2,3],[2,3,5],[4],[4,5],[3],[3,5],[3,3],[3,3,5],[3,4],[3,4,5],[1],[1,5],[1,3],[1,3,5],[1,2],[1,2,5],[1,2,3],[1,2,3,5],[1,4],[1,4,5],[1,3],[1,3,5],[1,3,3],[1,3,3,5],[1,3,4],[1,3,4,5]]
21:30:55 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
21:36:38 <pikhq> alise: Probably only sci-fi with sleeper ships.
21:37:12 <pikhq> When travel to port is going to take livable amounts of time, analogy with sea-based vessels kinda makes sense.
21:38:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Inasmuch as the Culture has individual political units.
21:38:39 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yeah; something a little less abstract would be cool.
21:39:02 <alise> pikhq: Well, generation ships would probably be like countries.
21:39:24 <alise> At least, the thing I have filed for Would Be a Good Sci-Fi Show About a Generation Space Ship has it like that.
21:39:33 <alise> If only I could write.
21:39:35 <pikhq> alise: Ah, yes. Sleeper or generation ships are going to inherently be like countries.
21:39:53 <pikhq> Well, sleeper ships are more like *going to be* countries, but still.
21:40:09 * Phantom_Hoover tries to remember if the Algebraist had anything similar.
21:40:13 <alise> Still, what about long-mission ships that can still travel large distances, but with a large number of crewmembers? I guess without a defined, "short-term" mission they don't exist.
21:40:39 <alise> pikhq: I don't see how sleeper ships would be like that.
21:40:44 <alise> They barely have any people.
21:40:49 <alise> (Conscious, that is.)
21:41:01 <pikhq> alise: The unconscious crews shall found a colony or some such.
21:41:12 <pikhq> Either that or they'll be back in 100 years, making it more naval.
21:41:26 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, in hard SF generation ships would probably rarely interact.
21:41:41 <pikhq> (well, "like" 100 years. Long time-span, but the point being that it's returning and the country may well exist in the end)
21:41:48 <alise> Politics exist even in a vacuum. Uh, or something.
21:41:59 <alise> pikhq: The unconscious crews won't do anything until they're off the ship.
21:42:08 <alise> At which point nothing they do changes how the ship is politically structured.
21:42:34 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Because when you have thousands and thousands of personnel on board, you're going to have an awful lot of opinions, and probably quite a bit of crime.
21:42:46 <alise> Especially so on e.g. a generation starship, when people aren't specially selected -- not after the first generation, anyway.
21:42:53 <alise> *where people aren't
21:43:06 <pikhq> Another thought: why do so many sci-fi settings seem to try and have all the various settled planets under a single legal framework, regardless of speed of transit between them?
21:43:08 <Phantom_Hoover> That means that anything with generation ships counts, then.
21:43:14 <pikhq> I'm looking at *you*, Enderverse.
21:43:22 <ais523> pikhq: normally as a result of conflict
21:43:48 <ais523> in Asimov's Foundation series, for instance, everywhere starts under a single political system and legal framework
21:43:49 <cheater99> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQp5l4-sfFA
21:43:53 <ais523> and it all falls apart as the series goes on
21:44:07 <pikhq> (gah, slow-ass ships being the only means of transit, but a central government? I don't even know how that works *with* the ansible, much less without.)
21:44:23 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, settlement is an extremely complex business, so it would make sense that only one organisation would be able to do it in any significant amount.
21:44:37 <ais523> doesn't make sense that everyone would stay bound to that org forever
21:44:40 <ais523> unless it was /really/ scary
21:44:51 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: And how do you maintain political bonds when it's subliminal movement?
21:45:11 <ais523> pikhq: are you assuming liminal communication as well as subliminal movement?
21:45:15 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Yes.
21:45:45 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Well, superluminal movement does get invented several centuries in.
21:46:07 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Also, it has instantaneous communication.
21:46:09 <alise> pikhq: Notably, Orson Scott Card isn't a very good writer.
21:46:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Tau Zero was fairly good about the whole "governance in a closed environment" thing.
21:46:27 <alise> (...also a homophobe)
21:46:40 <pikhq> alise: I *like* his writing when it's not got anything to do with his religion.
21:46:55 <pikhq> It gets vomit-inducing when his religion is at all involved.
21:48:34 <alise> I still need to figure out the chronology :^)
21:48:38 <alise> I had it written down, somewhere!
21:49:01 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: He's a decent sci-fi author, but also a literal, honest-to-god fascist.
21:49:35 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, LTW is definitely after Excession, and contains spoilers, but I don't think that affects thing.
21:50:16 <alise> It's The State of the Art that matters most to me. The main story in it was published /before/ another novel, separately, though I forget which.
21:51:27 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, TSOTA is before UOW, so read them consecutively.
21:52:13 <alise> 1989; TSOTA was published 1989.
21:52:33 <alise> Player of Games comes after Consider Phlebas?
21:53:09 <Phantom_Hoover> There's a long-running dispute over which you should read first. I read CP first, and it didn't do me any harm.
21:53:20 <alise> Yeah, we talked about that.
21:53:35 <alise> I think I want absolute chronological order; equivalently, avoiding spoilers.
21:53:49 <alise> I can make the commitment to read past Consider Phlebas beforehand, so it can't possibly turn me off the series.
21:54:21 <Phantom_Hoover> There are about 2 explicit spoilers I've ever encountered, excepting the outcome of the Idiran War, which hardly counts.
21:54:21 <alise> Which are the ones in TSOTA that are set in the culture?
21:54:26 <alise> A Gift from the Culture, Descendant?
21:54:47 <alise> # "A Gift from the Culture" - originally published in Interzone #20, Summer 1987 with illustrations by SMS.
21:54:47 <alise> # "Descendant" - originally published in the anthology Tales from the Forbidden Planet, Roz Kaveney (ed.) 1987, Titan Books, ISBN 1-85286-004-9.
21:54:53 <alise> Awesome, 1987, a chronological hint.
21:55:04 <alise> So those two should be read before The State of the Art.
21:55:11 <Phantom_Hoover> AGFTC is impossible to place within the internal chronology, BtW.
21:55:48 <alise> And Descendant after Gift, because Descendant was published October, while Gift was "Summer".
21:55:58 <alise> I should find Interzone #20's publication date.
21:56:12 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, but publication order is a secondary measure.
21:56:23 <alise> The Player of Games
21:56:23 <alise> A Gift from the Culture
21:56:23 <alise> The State of the Art [novella]
21:56:25 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I'm pretty sure Descendant is chronologically before Gift.
21:56:33 <alise> Is this about right?
21:56:35 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Oh?
21:56:37 <alise> I thought you said it was impossible.
21:56:55 <alise> How can you tell? I don't mind minor spoilers; they're only short stories.
21:57:06 <Phantom_Hoover> They probably aren't around the same time, because then Gift would have mentioned the Idiran War.
21:58:26 <alise> Well, what's your personal hunch?
21:58:31 <alise> Gift is before Idiran War? After?
21:58:36 <alise> That would be a start. (I am anal about this stuff.)
21:59:19 <alise> Much after, then, if you consider its not mentioning the Idiran War a hint?
21:59:31 <alise> As an aside -- is Descendant set before The Player of Games, then?
21:59:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, assuming it's set during the Idiran War, which seems pretty reasonable.
22:00:20 <alise> So I'll be reading a short story before my first "proper" (non-Phlebas) novel. How quaint.
22:00:29 <alise> The Player of Games
22:00:29 <alise> The State of the Art [novella]
22:00:37 <alise> Insert Gift somewhere, anywhere.
22:00:39 <alise> (But only in the right place!)
22:01:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Go by publication date if you really need to make a meaningful decision.
22:01:59 <alise> Does TPOG mention the War much?
22:02:02 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
22:02:22 <alise> You seem to imply that Gift unusually for something near the War doesn't, so perhaps I can figure it out by measuring how "fresh" the War is in the books.
22:02:49 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Now for the ultimate anality:
22:03:00 <alise> Which publications are best!
22:03:03 <Phantom_Hoover> And CP doesn't even deal with the end of the war outside the appendix.
22:04:38 <alise> Large preference for hardback. Antipreference for large hardback.
22:04:42 <alise> Not that you'll know. At all.
22:06:05 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined.
22:07:53 <Phantom_Hoover_> Well, I only have paperbacks of the weird abstract cover variety.
22:09:34 <cpressey> pikhq: Actually, things that operate *on* monads are a lot easier for me to comprehend than monads *themselves*.
22:09:45 <alise> "It, Robot: 1" is so badly-written. :(
22:09:53 <alise> If it wasn't for the rest of the Ed stories, it would be unforgivable.
22:10:05 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
22:10:11 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
22:11:01 <pikhq> cpressey: Okay, you might gain comprehension using Identity or Maybe.
22:11:23 <pikhq> Identity: (Identity x) >>= f = f x; return x = Identity x
22:12:20 <alise> pikhq: Hey, do you know what TeX value I need to tweak to tell it not to create widows or orphans or whatever this one is (paragraphs with their last line on their own page)?
22:14:06 <alise> Underfull \vbox (badness 10000) has occurred while \output is active [3]
22:15:01 <alise> Okay, do you know of any simple script I can tweak that will just match "..." dammit and replace them with ``...''?
22:15:09 <alise> Sure, I could write one myself, but I forget the rules to determine start/end.
22:16:35 <cheater99> you gotta do the cooking by the book!
22:17:04 <oerjan> non sequitur culinaris
22:17:19 <pikhq> alise: No, but I'd love one.
22:17:57 <alise> pikhq: I mean, it's basically word-boundary (start of line or space)" -> ``, non-word-boundary -> ''.
22:18:07 <alise> But this is a bitch to do via a regexp. Here, I volunteer you go and write one, and I'll.
22:18:27 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:19:18 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: You're creepin' me out.
22:19:53 -!- jcp has joined.
22:21:56 <ais523> alise: it's not massively hard via /two/ regexps, incidentally
22:22:11 <alise> ais523: Perhaps not, but Perl et al seem to have a fucked up definition of word boundaries that make it always break.
22:22:13 <ais523> use one to replace " with `` where necessary, the other to replace the remaining " with ''
22:22:20 <alise> I'd be glad to see your regexp.
22:22:52 <Sgeo> "Since, in most Smalltalk environments, the execution stack is a first-class citizen, coroutines can be implemented without additional library or VM support.
22:23:05 <ais523> s/(?:^| )\K"/``/g; s/"/''/g;
22:23:10 <Sgeo> Thanks Wikipedia, for telling me it can be done, but not giving me the slightest clue how
22:23:42 <alise> ais523: does that work with #!perl -p, I wonder?
22:23:59 <alise> Yes, it does. I think.
22:24:50 <alise> ais523: So "s/(?:^| )\K-\K(?:$| )/--/g;" for a - on its own, or what?
22:25:03 <ais523> \K twice makes no sense
22:25:15 <ais523> it means "don't substitute anything before this point in a s/// expression"
22:25:53 <alise> s/(^| )-( |$)/$1--$2/g;
22:26:17 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:27:17 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: You seem overly concerned about whether I "understand monads" or not.
22:27:44 <Phantom_Hoover> You're more susceptible to the Device if you understand monad.
22:32:23 * Phantom_Hoover notes that there's another Culture book coming out in October.
22:34:11 <myndzi> i gotta read more of those
22:34:14 <myndzi> i liked the ones i did read
22:34:23 <myndzi> also: the names of the ships :D
22:35:32 <myndzi> whichever ones were at the used book store
22:36:31 <myndzi> consider phlebas, i think
22:36:51 <myndzi> i believe i have inversions but i haven't read it yet
22:37:04 <myndzi> nah, honestly i don't remember all that much about either of them
22:37:11 <myndzi> i have a shitty memory that way
22:37:43 <myndzi> i could list them when i get home if you are particularly interested or something :P
22:39:55 <myndzi> that's odd, it should have detected one of those at least i'd think
22:40:03 <myndzi> maybe flood protection or something
22:40:17 * oerjan is sure he recalled some bug involving something like that
22:40:35 -!- AnMaster has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net).
22:40:38 <myndzi> it may be some regex failure on my part
22:40:50 <myndzi> i don't think so though
22:40:58 <myndzi> since the regex for that one is pretty simple
22:41:34 <Phantom_Hoover> It ignores if there's a non /\_ character after the arm.
22:41:36 <myndzi> i modified the regex to help avoid things like urls with _o_ in them
22:41:50 <myndzi> so it has a \w check now
22:41:57 <oerjan> then that may have been after the bug
22:42:10 <myndzi> probably, it was a pretty recent change
22:42:37 <myndzi> there, i took the \w check out
22:42:52 <myndzi> lots of guys stepping on landmines these days
22:43:12 <myndzi> it's actually not a bug though: `\(o_O)/'
22:43:17 <myndzi> it's actually not a bug though: `\(o_o)/'
22:43:22 <myndzi> failure, maybe it is a bug
22:43:55 <myndzi> i am so confused right now
22:44:14 <myndzi> and honestly, i do not want to debug this: /((?<!\\m\/.\\m\/.|\\m\/.\\m\/)\\m\/.\\m\/(?!.?\\m\/.\\m\/)|[-\\\/|_\<]o?[-\\\/|_\>]|([.o])_?(?!\2)[.o]|ಠ‿ರೃ)/gS
22:44:28 <myndzi> or rewrite it for that matter
22:45:07 <myndzi> the o_o thing is for the funky faces
22:45:33 <myndzi> i could swear it should pick up (o_o)
22:46:05 <myndzi> must be a failure of the first regex
22:46:15 <myndzi> i wonder if they differ somehow
22:46:31 <alise> ais523: what's the perl to slurp all of stdin?
22:46:37 <alise> or "stdin + arguments", that thing
22:46:43 <myndzi> they can't be the same character
22:46:50 <alise> ais523: just all of stdin in one string
22:46:55 <ais523> means that Perl won't consider anything a line separator
22:46:56 <alise> ais523: nononono, the way that doesn't hurt babies
22:47:08 <ais523> {local $/; $stdin=<>;}
22:47:21 <ais523> see, as long as you let no babies between the braces, you should be fine
22:47:38 <alise> dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}'
22:47:38 <cpressey> A monad is a pair of higher-order functions which encapsulate the pattern of passing extra parameters between the functions to which they are applied.
22:47:42 <oerjan> i think i used something like $_ = join <>, '' somewhere
22:47:54 <fizzie> If you want it more readable, ... join it like that.
22:47:54 <ais523> oerjan: that removes all newlines
22:47:59 <EgoBot> perl (sending via DCC)
22:48:11 <ais523> would add whatever the newline char at the time was
22:48:18 <ais523> (and as a bonus, $/ is shorter than "\n")
22:48:23 <EgoBot> perl (sending via DCC)
22:48:29 <oerjan> $_ = join '', <>; it was
22:48:41 <alise> ais523: Yo, ais523, your regexp is crampin' my style
22:48:43 <cpressey> I knew I'd eventually understand it.
22:48:48 <oerjan> and that most definitely doesn't remove the newlines
22:48:51 <alise> This makes it replace all quotes with ``
22:48:51 <EgoBot> sh read p; if [ "x$p" = "x" ]; then p=5; fi; echo "scale=$p; a(1)*4;" | BC_LINE_LENGTH=490 bc -l | tr -d '\\'
22:48:54 <alise> if I put it before your regexp, man
22:49:06 <alise> What's up wit dat, duude.
22:49:19 <ais523> alise: well, obviously
22:49:19 <alise> ais523: oh, does $/ break ^ in regexp? :D
22:49:22 <ais523> ^ matches the start of a line
22:49:31 <ais523> or the start of a string
22:49:37 <ais523> add the /m flag at the end of the regex
22:49:39 <ais523> and it'll match newlines
22:49:43 <alise> and things like "abc" at the start of <p>-lines that become "-starting-lines, the " gets replaced with ``
22:50:07 <alise> Hmm, it works now.
22:51:45 <alise> Anyone know any nice typewriter-y fonts? Not necessarily monospaced, just the kind of thing that /looks/ typewritery/terminaly.
22:51:45 <cpressey> Of course, feel free to tell me I'm still wrong.
22:51:53 <alise> To set the monospaced portion of http://qntm.org/dropout.
22:52:31 <pikhq> alise: Something actually typewriter-like? Might I recommend Courier New?
22:52:43 <ais523> cpressey: you're right pretty much
22:52:57 <alise> pikhq: That's monospaced, though; I don't particularly require monospcaed.
22:53:09 <ais523> although, it's like passing the parameters by reference more than by value
22:53:16 <alise> Besides ... Courier is nicer than Courier New.
22:53:17 <pikhq> alise: Yeah, but it's actually typewriter-imitation.
22:53:44 <alise> Okay; now tell me of a nice pdfTeX version. :P
22:54:27 <alise> Additionally... Is there a nice LaTeX command to set those little "break in text" flourishes used to mark mini-sections (often three stars like ***)?
22:54:33 <pikhq> alise: \usepackage{courier}
22:54:33 <alise> Specifically with the space before and after.
22:54:35 <cpressey> ais523: Eeer umm... kinda but also no.
22:54:49 <ais523> cpressey: also a good description
22:55:46 <pikhq> Oh, and Courier's apparently not merely typewriter-imitation.
22:55:58 <pikhq> It's the actual typeface that was used in most typewriters from the 50s on.
22:56:26 <ais523> there were multiples, IIRC
22:56:30 <ais523> Courier, Elite, Orator
22:56:34 <ais523> but I think Courier was the most common
22:56:51 <pikhq> Yeah, Courier was the most common due to being free to use.
22:58:16 <alise> Okay; now how do I use courier with the verbatim environment?
22:58:32 <alise> Or does it automatically do that?
22:58:42 <alise> "The font that is actually provided is URW Nimbus Mono (A Courier clone)." Oh, great...
22:59:42 <pikhq> Hrm. Terminal-y font? Maybe fixedsys?
23:00:08 <alise> Nah, Courier is great for this.
23:00:20 <alise> Is there any command in LaTeX for... "vskip one blank line"? Like, including line height and such?
23:00:31 <pikhq> Mmkay. Guess it'll just be a pain getting Courier installed right, then.
23:01:08 <alise> Eh, I'll just use the imitation for now.
23:01:24 <alise> It's not /awful/ or anything; it's not like monospaced fonts are paragons of typographic excellence, anyway.
23:01:28 <oerjan> "This extra space, especially when co-occurring at a page break, may contain an asterisk, three asterisks, a special stylistic dingbat, or a special symbol known as an asterism."
23:02:03 <alise> I love me some asterisms
23:02:06 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asterism_(typography) contains actual latex code
23:02:13 <alise> \newcommand{\asterism}{\smash{%
23:02:13 <alise> \raisebox{-.5ex}{%
23:02:13 <alise> \setlength{\tabcolsep}{-.5pt}%
23:02:13 <alise> \begin{tabular}{@{}cc@{}}%
23:02:13 <alise> \multicolumn2c*\\[-2ex]*&*%
23:02:24 <alise> But I still need that skip-one-line thing.
23:02:50 <alise> It seems that that \asterism won't center properly.
23:03:07 <oerjan> \vspace{...some length...}, i presume
23:03:26 <alise> but I'd like it to figure out the length for me
23:04:15 <oerjan> there is presumably some length designation for that particular length
23:05:05 <alise> I'm not sure what you mean.
23:05:24 -!- Starmage has joined.
23:05:39 <oerjan> latex has many length designations, like em for the width of an m
23:06:39 <oerjan> http://www.tug.org/pipermail/xetex/2010-January/015564.html is relevant to the centering
23:07:42 <oerjan> http://www.tug.org/pipermail/xetex/2010-January/015565.html says to delete the \smash
23:08:34 <alise> I know about em, that's a standard typographical unit.
23:08:43 <alise> I do not believe there is one for "vertical space of one line, including spacing"...
23:10:59 <Sgeo> Communication Fail :(
23:12:16 * alise thinks of a name for the break, since \break is taken
23:13:08 <oerjan> http://www.public.asu.edu/~rjansen/latexdoc/ltx-86.html
23:13:49 <oerjan> \baselineskip + \parskip or something like it
23:14:33 <alise> oerjan: no, i'm not so sure
23:14:36 <alise> that's just line spacing + par spacing
23:14:39 <alise> not the actual length of the line
23:14:42 <alise> I think \textheight would do that
23:15:11 -!- Starmage has left (?).
23:15:28 <alise> oerjan: oh, and those /set/, silly
23:16:52 -!- SimonRC has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
23:18:11 <alise> um, I'm terribly confused
23:21:34 <alise> I got it working, thanks :P
23:23:22 <alise> pikhq: Sam Hughes could do with a typography lesson.
23:23:30 <alise> Or at least, Ed stories-era Sam Hughes could.
23:23:42 <alise> Maybe Fine Structure actually has proper quotes and e[nm] dashes.
23:25:38 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:25:49 <alise> "...which would cause the universe as we know it to cease to exist, with potentially devastating consequences." --Ed
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23:27:31 * alise wonders why Be Here Now lists the total number of chapters in its chapter titles
23:27:36 <alise> oerjan: Well, Ed is that kind of guy.
23:30:35 <alise> http://qntm.org/ed
23:30:44 <alise> Or, you could wait for my super-duper nicely-typesetted one.
23:30:51 * Phantom_Hoover notes that one of Gaiman's short stories has been made into an obscene number of films
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23:32:41 <myndzi> i didn't know there was a film for it
23:32:49 <myndzi> or (m)any of his others
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23:32:55 <myndzi> i did see the bbc(?) neverwhere production
23:33:10 <Phantom_Hoover> myndzi, there are a mad number of student films of that one.
23:33:10 <myndzi> and that one novel.. hell, i can't think of the name of it at the moment
23:33:14 <myndzi> i wanna say star something or other
23:33:33 <myndzi> i've become rather a fan of gaiman haha
23:33:37 <myndzi> my collection should be about complete
23:33:44 <myndzi> even the kids books ;)
23:34:00 <myndzi> i still need some of the Sandman specials though
23:34:18 <myndzi> Smoke and Mirrors is one of my favorite publications though
23:34:32 <myndzi> there's just so MANY good stories in there
23:34:46 * oerjan has read Season of Mist *MWAHAHAHA*
23:35:09 <oerjan> i didn't say i had a _copy_ :D
23:35:16 <oerjan> i read it at the library
23:35:22 <cpressey> actually oerjan has the original
23:35:22 <myndzi> http://www.alibris.com/booksearch?qwork=10919118&matches=15&keyword=season+of+mists&cm_sp=works*listing*title
23:35:24 <alise> "Ahhhh, and now I get it," says Ed-B. Now I see why you came back and left everyone behind in your old universe."
23:35:29 <alise> You missed an opening quote, Sam.
23:35:39 <myndzi> there are a number of copies starting at around $12
23:35:43 <oerjan> where they presumably still has one (or two, probably at least one in norwegian and one in english)
23:35:59 <myndzi> my Sandman copies are that newer two-tone color cover
23:36:02 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, steal it and drop it off at the top of the Scott Monument at noon on Wednesday.
23:36:03 <myndzi> i liked the other covers better
23:36:12 <myndzi> but i couldn't beat the price and getting to buy them all at once
23:36:33 <myndzi> i kinda wanna buy the covers i liked and sell the other ones or something, but that'd be a pain
23:36:37 <myndzi> and i'm not really all that picky about covers
23:37:16 <myndzi> anyway, gonna have to look up that youtube stuff, sounds fun
23:37:44 <cpressey> why do I have a horizontal scrollbar on this chat window?
23:38:02 <cpressey> i see nothing that failed to wrap
23:38:09 <myndzi> Phantom_Hoover: you visited the link, yes?
23:38:41 <myndzi> it is not a link that requires audio
23:38:57 <myndzi> it is however a link where you can purchase what you were looking for
23:39:10 <oerjan> cpressey: what about myndzi's last link?
23:40:10 <myndzi> if you scroll down there are some new copies for like $15
23:40:24 * myndzi buys it and goes NYAHAHAHA
23:40:47 <cpressey> oerjan: er, i'm not terribly interested in the book itself, if that's what you meant
23:41:01 <oerjan> cpressey: no it was just a guess
23:41:13 <myndzi> Phantom_Hoover: so? i'm sure you can find someone who will ship there
23:41:35 <myndzi> would you like me to proxy buy one for you?
23:41:40 <oerjan> yes, it involves a man and a canal in panama
23:43:55 <oerjan> madam, can adam plan a canal?
23:44:27 <myndzi> adam, can madam do anal?
23:44:46 <myndzi> Phantom_Hoover: i am about to leave; you can drop me a query if you decide you want to take me up on the offer
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23:47:42 <augur> oerjan: im glad you liked my joke :D
23:47:48 <calamari> is this what you were hunting for? a man, a plan, a canal: panama
23:47:56 <alise> Anyone read Ed stories? I know pikhq and Sgeo have.
23:48:15 <oerjan> calamari: hunting? we were already dismembering the body
23:50:41 <oerjan> armadillo, rama lama ding dong
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23:53:21 <alise> ``I wanna go to Andromeda,'' says Ed, rotating the ship to point
23:53:21 <alise> towards an extraordinarily distant blob of light.
23:53:22 <alise> ``We can't go to Andromeda,'' I remind him sternly.
23:53:24 <alise> Lulz, lampshading.
23:53:42 * oerjan read the Ed stories earlier this year and alise is probably to blame for it
23:55:44 <alise> oerjan: I told you to read them. So, yeah.
23:55:57 <alise> oerjan: Either you didn't like them, or you just wanted to make me feel bad. :P
23:57:59 <alise> oerjan: so what's the true option? :P
23:58:24 <alise> pikhq: Okay, do you know the variable to adjust to stop -- from appearing at the start of a line?
23:58:45 <alise> Also, a way to make it disable ligatures when stretching text would be nice. Ha ha, only kidding, I've read the microtype docs, TeX sucks enough that that's impossible.
23:58:51 <oerjan> i thought they were all right, and was joking
00:02:01 <calamari> cpressey, best I can come up with: eyes TAC at a cats eye
00:05:10 <oerjan> eye stack late talk cats eye
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00:10:07 <alise> I have typeset the Ed stories up to the end of Spacéd; the typography is not perfect, but pretty damn good, and I'd appreciate any comments. pikhq, Sgeo?
00:10:11 <alise> I'll give you a PDF if you want.
00:10:34 * Sgeo is going to start tutoring soon
00:10:38 <Sgeo> As in, a few min
00:10:57 <Sgeo> Or, a few seconds actually
00:11:24 <alise> Let me guess; you're teaching C# to somebody online.
00:11:38 <alise> Without, of course, considering whether knowing something is truly equal to being able to teach it ...
00:14:22 <Sgeo> Well, he's mostly reading a book (not one that I suggested, one that he chose) and I can answer any questions, etc. etc.
00:14:36 <Sgeo> Also, technical difficulties right now :/
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00:15:28 <alise> A few things are lost when converting the Ed stories to dead tree format...
00:15:33 <alise> For instance, the lovely little links back everywhere.
00:16:15 * oerjan starts envisioning some system of threads embedded in books for linking
00:19:26 <Sgeo> alise, any chance of an ePub version?
00:20:16 <alise> Sgeo: Why bother? I am doing this for the typography.
00:20:34 <alise> I don't care about ereaders that don't respect typography, i.e. all of them, apart from the ones with a PDF reader.
00:20:55 <alise> When this is done, if I get permission from Sam I'll publish it on Lulu in the highest-quality hardback they offer.
00:21:10 <cpressey> clearly we need to tunnel TeX-over-IRC
00:22:18 <alise> This is so easy; my converter basically lets me paste the HTML in and it spits out LaTeX.
00:22:30 <alise> Add chapter titles, wrap lines for my convenience, replace breaks with \pbreak, remove links... that's about it.
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00:22:39 <alise> pikhq: Is there any difference between \emph{c} and $c$?
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00:26:59 <alise> Aargh, Sam Hughes uses ONE em-dash in a chapter where every other dash is ens -- not even ens, just "-".
00:27:10 <alise> Am I meant to RESPECT that crazy, CRAZY wish?
00:27:35 <alise> I think I will interpret it as meaning that all breaks in conversation, in quotes, should be em-dashes.
00:33:59 <Sgeo> Didn't Sam once rant about Lulu?
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00:47:25 <alise> Sgeo: Perhaps. I don't know.
00:48:26 <alise> http://www.google.com/search?q=lulu&sitesearch=qntm.org
00:48:42 <alise> "Ed stories" is a surprisingly long book.
00:49:08 <alise> Up to the end of the first chapter of The End Of The Game, it's 107 pages.
00:54:14 <Sgeo> alise, http://qntm.org/faq
00:54:28 <Sgeo> It doesn't reference Lulu by name, just as "self-publishing"
00:54:49 <Sgeo> erm, major FS spoilers near that question
00:55:44 <Sgeo> alise, http://pastie.org/private/chm2vxv8ylymbkzvu4qebq wthout the spoilers. You're just going to have to believe me that that's what it says
01:00:22 <Sgeo> alise, you still there, or did I traumatize you?
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01:04:59 <alise> Sgeo: Well, it's a pretty fucking stupid remark.
01:05:06 <alise> Lulu isn't "self-publishing", it's self-printing.
01:05:24 <alise> Actually, that answer is very assholish for Sam.
01:05:24 <Sgeo> What's the difference >.>
01:05:49 <alise> Sgeo: Self-publishing is like PublishAmerica. Self-printing is just: you give them the PDF, the near-bitmap (well, vector) of what you fucking want on the page, and they supply the hardback.
01:05:58 <alise> Gutenberg over TCP/IP. There's nothing disrespectful about that.
01:06:18 <Sgeo> Severe Deja Vu
01:07:16 <Sgeo> Regarding the Gutenberg comment, watching someone play the game, and tutoring this person
01:07:21 <Sgeo> Like I've done exactly this before
01:07:55 -!- sshc has joined.
01:08:33 <alise> Well. You haven't.
01:08:47 <Sgeo> Intellectually, I know that
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01:19:47 <alise> Sexy Klingons Bonking Knaves Nightly, Fucking Zaphod's Beetles.
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01:21:36 <Sgeo> (Smalltalk > CSharp) ifFalse: [ Transcript show: 'Liar!' ]
01:22:20 <alise> Sgeo: Wanna take on a menial job for me? You'll get recognition in the colophon, which is what you like to be paid in, right? :P
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01:23:21 <alise> The little bit in small, centred text at the start of a book that tells you what typeface it uses and the copyright notes and everything.
01:23:34 <Sgeo> Depends on what the menial job is
01:23:39 <alise> I'd put you on the Thanks page, except I don't think I should put my thanks on other people's novels.
01:23:41 <CakeProphet> Smalltalk ifTooMuchExpressionification [exit]
01:24:11 <Sgeo> CakeProphet, you forgot a :
01:24:30 <Sgeo> Too bad blocks can't be messages, afaik
01:24:32 <CakeProphet> too much expressionification is fine in a language, but it better be terse.
01:24:34 <alise> Sgeo: Read my beautifully-typeset (but-not-quite-perfectly!) production of the Ed stories, and tell me every time you see a short dash - like -, not -- - in "something a character is saying, as if their speech was broken off-". The exact quote would be nice, but chapter is fine too.
01:24:48 <alise> There will be no long -- dashes until the later paragraphs, which should make it a whole lot easier.
01:25:02 <alise> As a bonus, you get to gawp over my wonderful typesetting. :P
01:25:15 <alise> Fun fact: It's 130 pages.
01:25:15 <Sgeo> Isn't it easy to just search for -?
01:25:47 <alise> Sgeo: Except that outside "speech", it /should/ be -.
01:26:01 <Sgeo> Ok, so this will be incredibly easy
01:26:10 <Sgeo> Just need to use my humanness
01:26:38 <alise> Eh, I'm actually doing it manually.
01:26:45 <CakeProphet> alise: I was suggesting a name for any conceited typefaces you might make.
01:26:45 <alise> Don't worry, I'll find you another menial task you can do for recognition!
01:27:05 <Sgeo> conceited typeface?
01:27:08 <CakeProphet> though fungot tends to be better at this sort of thing.
01:27:09 <fungot> CakeProphet: moral heroism, on the contrary, have omitted no pains to instruct them, blame them for giving ear to the demagogue who took pains to delude them? we must have nomination at gatton because we have launched our ship with a reconciled spirit, and have maintained that the resistance of power, and of the surrounding region. the security, which it is impossible not to observe, that the speaker must infallibly come back t
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01:32:51 <alise> Sgeo: So, want to take a look at the draft version?
01:33:24 <oerjan> CakeProphet: it's all the alien spider goblins' fault!
01:33:28 <Sgeo> alise, I.. guess
01:33:55 <alise> Sgeo: GOOD! MWAHAHAHA SLAVE http://filebin.ca/fxgocj/ed.pdf
01:34:19 <alise> I included "Free, Standing" as an epilogue. It works well.
01:35:35 <oerjan> everything works well when you have balls the size of planets.
01:36:50 <Sgeo> Why isn't there a table of contents?
01:37:14 <alise> Sgeo: Because novels shouldn't have tables of contents.
01:37:19 <alise> oerjan: hyuk hyuk hyuk
01:37:44 <CakeProphet> ....since when did #esoteric become #typography
01:37:49 <alise> Three minutes ago.
01:38:03 <oerjan> CakeProphet: it was inevitable, really.
01:38:40 <CakeProphet> hmmm. I guess? I have absolutely no interest in typography.
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02:18:43 <alise> Sgeo: any comments on ed.pdf?
02:19:15 <Sgeo> What's so special about typesetting?
02:19:20 <Sgeo> It all just looks like text
02:19:33 <alise> I was about to ask some questions ... but never mind.
02:19:45 <Sgeo> What were those questions?
02:20:05 <alise> I'm not sure the page-big part headings are such a good idea; I think Be Here Now, for instance, should be lead into naturally, not announced. But then I can't see how to make that consistent with the other parts, which aren't named in their chapter titles.
02:20:14 <alise> But if you're not even seeing the point of typesetting, erm, never mind.
02:20:47 <Sgeo> Makes text look pretty, I guess?
02:21:31 <alise> CakeProphet: No, he hasn't.
02:23:19 <CakeProphet> the basic idea of typography is to make visually appealing type.
02:23:43 <alise> and has never been true
02:24:19 <alise> the basic idea of typography is to make /readable/ type, to the finest degree possible: this ends up being visually appealing to get your mind into a consistent reading rhythm in accordance with the whitespace, etc.
02:24:48 <alise> after all, if you -- subconsciously -- flag anything as looking "awkward", even if you don't realise it, it jarrs just a little, and all those jars add up. Leaving the door ajar. I'm very, very tired.
02:25:10 <CakeProphet> right. There's the functional aspect of typography. That's why calligraphic typefaces usually are not good for large volumes of text
02:25:39 <alise> i thought you hated typography :)
02:25:49 <CakeProphet> doesn't mean I don't know anything about it. :)
02:25:58 <CakeProphet> and hate is too strong. I don't hate fields of study.
02:26:18 <CakeProphet> I just personally would not devote serious amounts of time to it.
02:28:09 <alise> Interests are a bit arbitrary.
02:28:53 <CakeProphet> I suppose if I could save the world with typography I would devote some time to it
02:29:06 <CakeProphet> maybe a world peace treaty that's so well set, no one could possibly refuse.
02:29:07 <alise> You can save the world by fucking cows?
02:29:24 <CakeProphet> no, the saving-the-world condition is only valid for typography
02:29:44 <alise> 04:52:54 <fungot> fizzie: i like cows
02:29:45 <fungot> alise: dr. rutherford ( middlesex, brentford) rose to move as an amendment, that the nation ought to be fnord had a great battle which arrested the armies of france or austria. if his happiness coincides with the desires, of any state in the presence of dost mahomed. then came a notification that dost mahomed would not make his appearance there. in the garrets was his library, a large and growing party in the nation; and for th
02:30:36 <fungot> CakeProphet: froissart, character of the scotch universities. war with china, the.
02:31:06 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches* ss wp youtube
02:31:11 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
02:31:13 <alise> fungot: duck butts
02:31:13 <fungot> alise: cool. does anyone know of any way to connect
02:31:15 <Sgeo> It basically func-
02:31:15 <Sgeo> tions like a trapdoor ten seconds forwards in time. Nothing can come back the
02:31:15 <Sgeo> other way – that would result in an eect preceding a cause, which would cause the
02:31:15 <Sgeo> 1920 CHAPTER 7. THE BEST THING SINCE SLICED BREAD
02:31:15 <Sgeo> universe as we know it to cease to exist, with potentially devastating consequences.
02:31:26 <alise> Sgeo: That copied badly, but yes?
02:31:43 <Sgeo> Also, I like that line
02:31:48 <alise> I already quoted the universe-ceasing-to-exist part ;P
02:32:04 <alise> Oh, you don't have the new version with the em dashes, I see.
02:32:21 <alise> Sgeo: However, I realised that what I said isn't quite true.
02:32:29 <alise> - is correct when surrounded by spaces.
02:32:34 <alise> It should be -- when speech is being cut off or resumed.
02:32:38 <alise> Here, I will upload the newest PDF for you.
02:32:58 <CakeProphet> alise: are you getting free labor out of Sgeo? o_o I find this amazing.
02:33:05 <alise> Sgeo: You sure do appreciate my work.
02:33:13 <alise> CakeProphet: No, I did it all myself instead. But yes: credit him and he'll do anything.
02:33:22 <alise> It's like currency, but FREE!
02:33:25 <alise> Sgeo: http://filebin.ca/jvtunb/ed.pdf
02:33:41 <Sgeo> Don't wanna lost my place :(
02:33:56 <CakeProphet> Sgeo: if you win the Nobel Prize for me I'll credit you.
02:34:23 <alise> Sgeo: Note the page number.
02:34:37 <CakeProphet> though it would be interesting if there was only one nobel prize... like a wrestling championship belt.
02:34:54 <CakeProphet> Every year the champion had to out-academic the contestor.
02:37:37 <CakeProphet> alise: if you can devise a typeface that is composed of fractals then I will be intrigued.
02:37:59 <alise> CakeProphet: That's not hard.
02:38:17 <alise> Just find some fractals that look like letters; I'm sure there's some sufficiently generic meta-fractal you could supply parameters to to get that.
02:38:23 <alise> Even just warping an existing fractal.
02:38:26 <CakeProphet> alise: well neither am I, thanks to your mom. :)
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02:51:39 <Sgeo> "there's already a design for replacement red blood cells that are so much more efficient that if you replaced your red blood cells with them, you could hold your breath for four hours. We just can't build them. Yet."
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03:02:44 <Sgeo> http://digitalkingdom.org/robin/tiki-index.php?page=My+Views+On+The+Future
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03:11:17 <zzo38> Now I wrote PipeTeX, I want you to please see this program http://sprunge.us/USOE
03:24:21 <zzo38> And if you have any suggestions
03:24:45 <zzo38> (It might be difficult to figure out without a printout)
03:33:21 <zzo38> Do you want my character to eat your arm, and then fix it, and then pay you back double (because east pays/receives double)?
03:34:00 <zzo38> Or would you rather learn to stand on the ceiling in a different language?
03:34:42 <alise> zzo38: I think that you are crazy.
03:34:58 <alise> However, I am in awe. I think.
03:35:05 <zzo38> alise: Perhaps I am crazy, but is that sufficiently relevent?
03:35:18 <alise> Wrt that paste, yes.
03:36:18 <zzo38> Do you have any suggestions or anything like that, having to do with the program?
03:36:45 <alise> Not really, I'm afraid.
03:39:50 <Sgeo> Windows has named pipes?
03:40:00 <zzo38> Some people might say Don Knuth is also a bit crazy, and perhaps it is?
03:40:19 <Sgeo> zzo38, I don't think a single person in this room is _sane_, so..
03:40:28 <zzo38> Sgeo: Yes, Windows has named pipes, but you have to use the system call CreateNamedPipe and ConnectNamedPipe it is a server/client program.
03:40:36 <alise> Dust Jacket Hardcover: A book bound in navy blue linen with a full-color dust jacket.
03:40:37 <alise> case Casewrap Hardcover: Full-color, glossy cover; no dust jacket.
03:41:29 <zzo38> Sgeo: But they are all in a directory called \\.\pipe or in \Device\NamedPipe in the NT object manager. (If you have the "ddd" program I wrote, you can make a list of named pipes by typing "ddd z: \Device\NamedPipe" and then "dir z:")
03:41:44 * Sgeo barely knows what a named pipe is
03:41:58 <Sgeo> Actually, why not use regular pipes for this?
03:42:29 <zzo38> Sgeo: Because it has to go on both sides
03:44:05 * Sgeo wonders if zzo38 is an Order of the Stick fan
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03:49:17 <zzo38> (Do you think this program is understandable better with a printout?)
03:49:26 <augur> anyone know if its possible to install linux onto a partition without using a CD?
03:50:39 -!- Warrigal has joined.
03:50:58 <zzo38> augur: Probably it is possibly in some way?
03:51:02 <Gregor> augur: Sure, there are USB installs.
03:51:11 <Gregor> augur: Plus if you have Windows, there are installs you can do that boot from Windows.
03:52:39 <Sgeo> I can't believe I didn't notice until just now
03:52:55 <Sgeo> Pharo uses, for its default font for code, a non-monospaced font
03:52:59 <Sgeo> Who DOES that?
03:53:23 * Sgeo wonders how much that subconsiously elicited some opinion about Smalltalk
03:53:33 <Sgeo> zzo38, a .. Smalltalk thingy. A fork of Squeak
03:59:28 <zzo38> Do you like to learn about Forth programming?
04:00:32 <zzo38> In Forth, you can lets say, to define conditions. The IF must jump to the corresponding THEN if the condition is not true, but IF is read first, so we must put a mark in there. We can make a helping word: : ORIG HERE 0 , ;
04:00:52 <zzo38> Now: : IF` 0=GOTO` ORIG ; : THEN` HERE SWAP ! ;
04:03:01 <alise> pikhq: I found out the Horror behind Memoir.
04:03:02 <zzo38> To do ELSE it will be the IF jumps to ELSE if false, but ELSE jumps to THEN regardless. Since the jumps will be in the switched around order ( [IF [ELSE] THEN] ) we can do it like: : ELSE` GOTO` ORIG SWAP THEN` ;
04:03:11 <alise> Sgeo: Why do you need a monospaced font for code?
04:03:19 <zzo38> alise: What is the Horror behind Memoir?
04:03:36 <alise> zzo38: It won't automatically resize the page layout if you change the dimensions! Aaagh!
04:03:39 <Sgeo> alise, ... it's what everyone's used to. I guess it makes more sense for Python than anything else
04:04:02 <alise> Sgeo: ... Why Python?!
04:04:07 <zzo38> Non-monospaced fonts are better for prettyprinted programs, such as web program.
04:04:10 <alise> Also, /nobody/ is used to Smalltalk.
04:04:25 <zzo38> For loops, we need BEGIN ... AGAIN and BEGIN ... UNTIL and BEGIN ... WHILE ... REPEAT
04:04:51 <Sgeo> I think Smalltalk being the first language I've seen non-monospaced code in made me have an artificially high opinion of it
04:04:52 <zzo38> The beginning of a loop does nothing, it is just a marker for the repeat part to jump back to, thus: : BEGIN` HER ;
04:05:39 <zzo38> The AGAIN just jumps back: : AGAIN` GOTO` , ;
04:06:29 <zzo38> For UNTIL it is like AGAIN but we repeat until the condition is true, that is, repeat if the condition is false: : UNTIL` 0=GOTO` , ;
04:06:47 <zzo38> WHILE is just like IF: : WHILE` IF` ;
04:07:40 <zzo38> REPEAT at the end of a BEGIN ... WHILE loop is just repeat back to the beginning (unconditionally), but again the IF blocks are in backward order, thus: : REPEAT` SWAP AGAIN` THEN` ;
04:07:44 <zzo38> See? Forth is so simple.
04:07:57 <zzo38> What is your opinion?
04:08:09 <Sgeo> Also, non-monospacing makes it harder to see . and :
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04:09:05 <zzo38> Sgeo: Perhaps if you want non-monospacing you can also prettyprint it like Enhanced CWEB does for C programs. (For Smalltalk, you would have to do it differently, though)
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04:12:16 <Sgeo> "Call me when this test fails, I want your machine"
04:14:53 <zzo38> Sgeo: What test do you mean?
04:15:04 <Sgeo> sz := 1024*1024*1024*1024.
04:15:04 <Sgeo> self should:[Array new: sz] raise: OutOfMemory.
04:23:36 <alise> Latest version of Ed stories: http://filebin.ca/mjced/ed.pdf
04:24:07 * Sgeo should eat something soonish
04:25:30 <zzo38> Sgeo: Eat your arm and then make a spell to fix it? (O no, you are not that kind of monster in D&D)
04:26:56 <alise> Ouch, on page 64: "He'd" that looks like "Hed" with a ' on top.
04:26:58 <alise> Needs more spacing.
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04:35:23 <SevenInchBread> alise: I need to add some more spacing between fucks of your mother.
04:35:35 -!- SevenInchBread has changed nick to CakeProphet.
04:35:57 <Gregor> CakeProphet is writing this WHILE having sex with your mother, y'know.
04:36:08 <Gregor> But it's like the fourth time today, so it's painful ... and spongy.
04:37:03 <CakeProphet> nah I just inject meth directly into my penis
04:37:55 <alise> http://filebin.ca/rabery/ed.pdf
04:38:21 <zzo38> The @@@o command (look up "Command o" in the index) can be used to measure the minimum width that a paragraph can fit into.
04:38:58 <zzo38> (Which is something that I believe TeX does not have built in, and that there is no way to do it using the built-in commands)
04:39:11 <CakeProphet> in the context of that command, I am a paragraph and your mom is what I'm fitting into.
04:39:44 <zzo38> CakeProphet: Do you mean *my* mom? I don't think so.
04:40:07 <CakeProphet> I am referring to the Platonic ideal "your mom"
04:40:17 <zzo38> CakeProphet: O, OK.
04:40:32 <CakeProphet> the Platonic ideal your mom just happens to be a milf.
04:41:01 <zzo38> If you are talking about Platonic ideals about "your mom" I suppose we do not have to worry about it
04:45:53 <zzo38> Do you know what kind of creature my D&D character is and what kind of spell they have that nobody else would ever think of using?
04:46:51 <Sgeo> Ok, how many things did Smalltalk invent o.O
04:47:15 <Sgeo> Windowed GUIs, IDEs, and unit testing?!?!?
04:47:51 <zzo38> Sgeo: Did it? Anything else?
04:48:18 <Sgeo> [I think Windowed GUIs might be overly broad]
04:48:25 <Sgeo> Um, OOP, obviously
04:49:39 <zzo38> Sgeo: Object-oriented programming, as well as various other things that some people have heard of and other things that nobody has every heard of, has been done a lot in Forth, too, they are nothing new, Forth already can do all of these things and more, you just to implement them using simple codes like the examples I posted above (in this IRC)
04:51:40 <zzo38> (Some of the documentation of PipeTeX could be improved a bit, I might do so in the next version, as well as adding additional commands)
04:58:50 <alise> I wish my computer was fast enough to do HD.
04:59:00 <Sgeo> Disconnecting in 4min
04:59:32 <zzo38> alise: That is idea!
05:00:48 <alise> {{\sf FORTH}\TeX}\ForthTeX\def
05:01:07 <alise> {Introduction to the \ForthTeX manual}\mychapterthing
05:01:40 <zzo38> alise: You mean like a stack based where each {} is an entry on the stack?
05:01:54 <alise> {...} is basically a quoting command
05:02:02 <alise> \foo precedes commands, non-commands are "printed" basically
05:02:16 <zzo38> Perhaps then you also need instead of \ForthTeX put a different kind of symbol meaning by name instead of by value?
05:02:19 <alise> so we can pretend that \sf is like a forth word that "reads a bunch of text" and sets it in sans-serif, up to the next { or \
05:02:30 <alise> zzo38: you're probably right
05:02:37 <alise> {{\sf FORTH}\TeX}\def\ForthTeX
05:02:42 <alise> which would be more like Forth
05:02:53 <alise> \def\ForthTex {\sf FORTH}\TeX \end
05:02:58 <alise> which is exactly like forth
05:03:05 <zzo38> alise: Yes, it is more like how Forth does it
05:03:08 <alise> \: \ForthTex {\sf FORTH}\TeX \; % you see where I'm going with this
05:03:14 <alise> Actually, that would be pretty darn cool...
05:03:26 <zzo38> Although, in Forth you can change things around to work in many different ways
05:05:18 <zzo38> In that last example, { and } would be commands to enter and exit a group to save information, so that \sf switches the font of the current group, and } put thing from the group back how it was before, you could have it like a stack, and then copy information alloted at the HERE mark and move it ahead, so that then you move it back afterward, that is one way.
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05:06:02 <alise> Presumably \[integer] would just push [integer].
05:06:20 <alise> Actually the louf typesetting system is slightly similar to this. Not really, though; it's more functional than stack.
05:06:58 <zzo38> alise: Yes, that would be how it does. And then \begin and \until inside of a definition like Forth, are just immediate words to keep track of the addresses for jumping back to, and so on
05:07:46 <zzo38> But you would need \n\@ \10 \<
05:07:57 <zzo38> (Otherwise you are comparing it with the address of \n)
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05:08:47 <zzo38> I think TeX is a pretty good typesetting system, however there are some weaknesses which is why I wrote PipeTeX.
05:09:42 <zzo38> (Although, there are other ways as well, such as e-TeX, EncTeX, MLTeX, LuaTeX, XeTeX, LaTeX, and so on)
05:09:57 <zzo38> But I wrote PipeTeX instead.
05:10:38 <zzo38> So that you can use it even with later verions of TeX, possibly, too.
05:10:41 <alise> Your TeX will almost certainly include e-TeX.
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05:11:45 <zzo38> alise: You might be right about that. Still, I don't know about what things e-TeX actually does.
05:12:14 <zzo38> But with PipeTeX, I can make a paragraph box with the minimum width that it will fit, if I want to.
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05:13:54 <alise> e-TeX just tweaks some stuff and adds some built-in commands.
05:14:03 <alise> You're probably using it without realising it
05:15:16 <alise> gotta sleep smetime
05:17:03 <augur> why the fuck wont usb-creator-gtk use a goddamn minimal iso >_<
05:21:17 <alise> augur: use unetbootin
05:21:24 <alise> trust me, it's a lot more pleasant
05:22:10 <pikhq> God it's nice having things to *go* to.
05:30:07 <alise> make me sleep ghost of sgeo
05:34:40 <alise> it's only /just/ brightened
05:35:07 <alise> i leave you with this
05:35:08 <alise> http://filebin.ca/rabery/ed.pdf
05:35:28 <alise> pikhq: you will possibly enjoy the viewing of this memoir-typesetting of a sam hughes story.
05:35:53 <alise> typeset the nicest i can
05:35:57 <alise> comments on a postcard or to the logs
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05:55:48 <Gregor> MUST ... WRITE ... MICROCOSM ... VFS ...
05:56:39 * pikhq gives Gregor a time injection
05:56:56 <Gregor> augur: http://codu.org/projects/microcosm/
05:57:04 <Gregor> An insane project that AnMaster and pikhq forced me to start.
05:57:18 <augur> a time injection sounds like something from dr who
05:57:20 <Gregor> I started it under the condition that I wouldn't have to do this shit.
05:57:39 <augur> Gregor: i dont get it
05:57:54 <pikhq> I'm a bit busy trying to prevent myself from becoming a complete hikikomori ATM, so. :P
05:59:00 <zzo38> There are other ways to combine Forth with TeX, as well. One idea is, add a \forth command to TeX, which means switch into Forth mode (TeX's eyes no longer see the file), and it is processed by Forth, until Forth executes a [TEX] command to switch back. It would normally be a outer command, so things like \def\xyz{\forth 1 3 + . [TEX]} will just make \xyz to expand as "1 3 + . [TEX]" and then switch to Forth mode the next time TeX's eyes would
06:01:43 <zzo38> And then have ASSIGN-GULLET ASSIGN-STOMACH ASSIGN-INTESTINES to define TeX control sequences with functions of Forth codes assigned to them to work in that part of the processing
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06:03:16 <zzo38> And then TEX-HOOK to hook various parts of the processing of TeX
06:07:34 <zzo38> Perhaps you could include a file of Forth codes by typing \expandafter\forth\input
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12:33:07 * Phantom_Hoover notes that it would take over 333 days to read all of Schlock Mercenary on Archive Binge's fastest setting.
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13:08:08 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: maybe one could name kim deal, too.
13:08:16 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
13:08:27 <fungot> Selected style: discworld (a subset of Terry Pratchett's Discworld books)
13:08:29 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: ' most people do,' said
13:14:08 <fungot> fizzie: there was a short man in a suit of armour. there was a pulse there, but that's only because he wants to show he's willing. very willing lad, brutha."
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15:16:36 <alise> on the subject of urgency
15:24:05 <alise> pikhq: So, memoir really sucks in one way.
15:33:17 <alise> The only LaTeX document class that matters.
15:33:36 <alise> It does books, articles, memos, notes, poetry, ...
15:34:16 <alise> Its manual is a veritable tome of knowledge; a complete book with beautiful little miniatures of various page layouts and the corresponding code, and such. It contains much history about typography and information on why you might want to do things certain ways, but also includes all the information you need to completely change the entire page layout, just using memoir's commands.
15:34:25 <alise> It's also backwards-compatible with the article class and probably others.
15:35:05 <alise> The only thing that sucks about it is that if you use a non-standard paper size, I don't think it has a way to automatically "scale" the proportions of a built-in page layout for a similar size, down to fit your page.
15:35:14 <alise> So you have to specify all the values manually, which is... not easy if you're not good at that.
15:44:25 <alise> Quadrescence: \enlargethispage{3\baselineskip} % is this considered okay if i have e.g. an epilogue which i want to fit on one page rather than having a few dangling lines on the next page?
15:45:05 <Quadrescence> alise: Wellllllll it's really a hack and not very nice to do that but I guess you could get away with it
15:45:13 <Quadrescence> Especially if you don't want to solve it this second
15:45:30 <alise> Quadrescence: can't really be solved; the only thing i could do is make the "chapter" heading appear higher on the page
15:45:35 <alise> and I'm not certain how to do that with memoir
15:46:03 <alise> I've already committed such a sin once, anyway:
15:46:10 <alise> \enlargethispage{2\baselineskip}
15:46:10 <alise> \enlargethispage{2\parskip}
15:46:27 <Quadrescence> dear lord just use the above packages you will not be disappointed
15:46:27 <alise> To make the \pbreak (basically a centred \asterism with some space around it) fit on the end of the page, rather than the beginning of the next page.
15:46:32 <alise> Quadrescence: nothx
15:46:54 <alise> i hate trees and i like whitespace :)
15:47:04 <alise> "The goal of the savetrees package is to pack as much text as possible onto each page
15:47:05 <alise> of a L TEX document. Admittedly, this makes the document far less attractive."
15:47:06 <alise> even they admit it!
15:47:24 <alise> "• At most two authors are listed. The remainder are replaced by “et al.”"
15:47:45 <alise> wow, savetrees is like a tree nazi
15:47:52 <alise> "DECREASE! EVERYTHING!"
15:48:11 <alise> Quadrescence: but dammit, I like my whitespace :)
15:48:25 <alise> Quadrescence: anyway i'm not fucking greatly with layout until I figure out how to get memoir working with a smaller size
15:48:30 <fizzie> \usepackage[oneletterperpage]{killallthestupidtrees}
15:48:41 <alise> yeah, but memoir purposefully pushes the chapter headings down
15:48:48 <alise> for aesthetic reasons
15:49:05 <alise> Quadrescence: you got any idea how to give memoir a custom paper size and give it one of its default layouts and tell it "go scale"?
15:49:15 <alise> i'm too scared to define my own values, the default ones are fine
15:49:17 <alise> Quadrescence: dammit
15:49:20 <alise> Quadrescence: i do though :)
15:49:45 <alise> I care about aesthetics; I'm just not very good at specifying arbitrary values like that.
15:49:56 <alise> what trim paper size does The Quadrescence Press use? :P
15:50:08 <alise> they're arbitrary to me, though; i.e. i just see a number box
15:50:35 <alise> Yes, of course, I agree.
15:50:36 <Quadrescence> alise: finish your document in its entirety then worry about this stuff
15:50:41 <alise> Quadrescence: it is finished
15:51:15 <alise> wellll okay but I reserve the right to then screw with it again completely
15:51:38 <alise> it's just yet another typesetting of someone else's work because I am ~not cool enough to write~
15:52:06 <Quadrescence> I would tell you exactly what to do, it's just hard for "visual things"
15:52:46 <alise> Quadrescence: do you have the Minion Pro package installed?
15:53:09 <alise> http://filebin.ca/wohxwx/ed.tar
15:53:18 <alise> "pdflatex ed.tex", etc.
15:53:21 <alise> Quadrescence: is that a bad thing? :D
15:53:37 <alise> i've been playing with other typefaces for it
15:53:47 <alise> minion is just my fallback so I don't have to look at computer modern when tweaking stuff
15:53:54 <alise> but what's wrong with minion?
15:54:33 <alise> well, it's not exactly ideal for long prose, like all didone/modern typefaces imo
15:54:45 <alise> more to the point, what's wrong with minion?
15:55:27 <Quadrescence> Nothing is ``wrong'' with it, I just don't really like when people use it. I mean, it's a pretty OK typeface, maybe it's that Wolfram Research uses it
15:56:01 <alise> oh, I wasn't aware that Wolfram used it.
15:56:18 <alise> Quadrescence: otoh, bringhurst uses it
15:56:35 <Quadrescence> I'm sure a lot of people do because it makes them Hip and Different
15:56:41 <alise> actually, kerning is pissing me off right now; TeX is stupid enough that microtype suffers, because you can't disable kerning selectively properly
15:56:47 <alise> (only when it's needed and shit)
15:57:11 <alise> Minion makes you Hip and Different? gee, I really don't hang out in the kind of places where I'd find that kind of information :P
15:57:14 <Quadrescence> alise: did you try \usepackage[bitstream]{mathdesign}
15:57:28 <alise> i dislike bitstream fonts
15:57:49 <alise> TeX Gyre Schola or whatever they're calling it these days -- the New Century Schoolbook-based one -- worked okay
15:58:24 <Quadrescence> You dislike the fonts in the package I suggested?
15:58:57 <alise> Presumably [bitstream] is the Bitstream Vera fonts?
15:59:11 <alise> I haven't actually got mathdesign installed, it seems; I'll rectify that.
15:59:26 <alise> Quadrescence: Huh; I wonder which then.
15:59:39 <alise> Bitstream don't have any other Free with a capital E fonts afaik.
15:59:58 <alise> ehird@dinky:~/Documents/ed$ aptitude search mathdesign
15:59:58 <alise> ehird@dinky:~/Documents/ed$
16:00:11 <alise> ah bitstream charter
16:00:32 <alise> "Bitstream Charter is a typeface optimized for printing on the low-resolution 300 dpi laser printers of the 1980s." xP
16:00:47 <alise> blurgh; I need to isntall mathdesign now
16:01:02 <alise> just use the charter package
16:01:33 <alise> Quadrescence: unacceptable; doesn't have Greek
16:01:48 <alise> ERROR: I can't find file `grmn1200'. -- oh, do I need to delete the .aux crap?
16:01:53 <fizzie> texlive-fonts-extra in ubuntu has mathdesign.sty.
16:02:09 <alise> I use Greek for exactly one letter, heh:
16:02:15 <alise> "I was expecting orange light to fall across us as
16:02:15 <alise> we arrived in the {\greektext e}Eri system at a relative speed small
16:02:15 <alise> enough to make it appear that we were at a standstill."
16:02:35 <alise> Quadrescence: well, it certainly isn't telling me it has greek
16:02:40 <alise> even after rming the aux files
16:03:18 <Quadrescence> Well remove the \greekletter crap right now then which is probably specific to the minion package anyway
16:04:03 <alise> Quadrescence: no it is not
16:04:06 <alise> it is the babel package
16:04:14 <alise> which is the standard way to do these things ...
16:04:43 <alise> you don't now of babel, really?
16:06:27 <alise> Quadrescence: what latex font do you think is the most similar to georgia?
16:06:32 <alise> that's the original typeface the text was set in
16:08:10 <alise> I swear: none of these have Greek.
16:08:21 <alise> Maybe math-mode Greek, but not actual-text Greek.
16:08:47 <alise> TeX Gyre Schola is better than New Century Schoolbook so tgschola > fouriernc
16:09:01 <alise> and it's a pretty close match, Georgia is just ... plumper and less serify. Damn, I need to learn the terminology.
16:10:27 <alise> georgia is designed for screen and, I dunno, I've never liked XeLaTeX much
16:11:07 <alise> ERROR: LaTeX Error: File `kerkis.sty' not found.
16:11:18 <alise> time to find what texlive package it's in; sigh
16:11:36 <alise> s/textssc/textsc/ btw if not using minion
16:12:16 <alise> ah, it's based on Bookman? skeptical, but ok
16:12:26 <alise> TeX Gyre Bonum is probably better
16:12:30 <alise> as far as Bookmans go
16:13:24 <alise> that capital E is /freaky/
16:13:53 <alise> Quadrescence: i'm going to try xelatex just to see
16:15:49 <alise> Quadrescence: Wow, \LaTeX looks fucked up in Georgia. The a is lowercase.
16:16:14 <alise> Well, XeLaTeX doesn't do \textsc properly, it seems; actually, wait ... does Georgia even have small caps?
16:17:11 <alise> Linux Libertine O looks nice ...
16:17:21 <alise> ...but nothing like Georgia :P
16:17:27 <alise> i nearly nearly give up
16:17:49 <alise> i love how many badnesses it complains about
16:19:06 <alise> Quadrescence: Maybe I'll just convert it to lout and become a hermit and bang sticks and rocks together to make runes.
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16:20:03 <alise> I wonder if TeX Gyre Pagella has less awful quote marks than URW Palatino.
16:22:33 <alise> Hehe, LuaTeX can't even load microtype.
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16:23:20 <alise> Quadrescence: wait, there's an opentype to t1 converter, isn't there?
16:23:35 <alise> maybe it only works for minion
16:23:47 <Quadrescence> If you're thinking about converting georgia to something usable with latex
16:24:06 <alise> base=$(basename "$font" .otf)
16:24:06 <alise> cfftot1 "$font" "pfb/$base.pfb"
16:24:06 <alise> t1dotlessj "pfb/$base.pfb" "pfb/${base}LCDFJ.pfb"
16:24:14 <alise> Quadrescence: why :D microtype support and the like?
16:24:39 <Quadrescence> minion could only be converted because someone spent a lot of time tweaking things, preparing fontinst files, and making a .sty file
16:25:14 <alise> maybe i should just email the author and ask him what he'd like it set in.
16:28:09 <alise> or just forget about it and set his new novel but i'd have to read it first
16:28:12 <alise> or just give up on typesetting
16:28:14 <alise> and become a hermit
16:28:20 <alise> yeah. let's go with that one
16:35:25 <alise> brb: rebooting into windows to see if it can handle HD
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18:59:50 <alise> Well, Windows can decode a "900p" Blu-Ray rip and have it almost synched up with the audio.
19:00:00 <alise> I conclude that Linux audio still suuuuuuuuuuucks shiiiiiit
19:00:16 <pikhq> I can only conclude that good God Ubuntu sucks at audio.
19:00:35 <pikhq> I use the *default settings* for ALSA and it just plain works.
19:00:35 <alise> On a more positive note, thx coppro for making me decide to, uh, obtain Stargate Universe.
19:00:46 <alise> If Air pts. 1 and 2 are anything to go by it's gonna be good.
19:01:29 <alise> Unfortunately the Blu-Ray rip only has up to episode 10; apparently the season was released in two halves, both the price of a regular season (!) on Blu-Ray. So that sucks; I can't find the second half in such quality.
19:02:01 -!- calamari has joined.
19:02:48 <pikhq> alise: SyFy tends to air seasons in two parts.
19:02:59 <pikhq> The second part of the season only finished a few weeks ago.
19:03:25 <alise> Oh, so that thing I saw on Sky marked as the "finale" was actually the finale of the first half? Interesting.
19:03:34 <alise> The two releases are marked "1.0" and "1.5", which is a bit strange, but there you go.
19:03:50 <alise> Alright then; now if only the 1080p 37" TV was in /here/. And I had a machine that can decode it with _perfect_ AV sync.
19:03:55 <Gregor> Yup, that's a very SCI-FI CHANNEL (not "SyFy" bleh) thing to do.
19:04:06 <alise> I pronounce Syfy as "Siffy" to protest the rename.
19:04:19 <alise> "...new, to Sci-Fi." "You mean 'Siffy'."
19:04:44 <Gregor> Or "siffih". So it's awkward to pronounce.
19:04:48 -!- kar8nga has joined.
19:05:51 <alise> pikhq: Apparently "1.5" was released in July.
19:06:00 <alise> A few few weeks ago.
19:06:29 <pikhq> Should be able to find HD TV dumps; not a Blu-Ray rip yet.
19:06:39 <alise> In Blu-Ray "Region B" (??) the full-season Blu-Ray came out in July too. Region A has to wait until 2011, but they got 1.0 and 1.5, while region B didn't.
19:07:05 <alise> My anal file-naming scheme has come under attack by the evil creators of Stargate Universe.
19:07:05 <AnMaster> hm, where is oerjan when you need him
19:07:21 <alise> "1.11.2 ???.mkv" (Yes, that is an en-dash.)
19:07:35 <alise> It's two separate episodes, "Air (Part 1)" and "Air (Part 2)", but aired as one continuous one.
19:07:40 <alise> Usually, I would just title it "Air".
19:07:48 <alise> But there's a part 3 which was aired /after/ these.
19:07:53 <AnMaster> alise, yeah, for me the plain alsa with no pulseaudio just works. Even on computers with stuff like Intel HDA instead of my sb live card
19:08:02 <AnMaster> pulseaudio is what causes issues IME
19:08:03 <alise> AnMaster: ALSA had the AV sync problems just as badly.
19:08:12 <alise> I'm going to try OSSv4, then hang myself.
19:08:24 <AnMaster> alise, that I never had... Weird latency issues I guess
19:08:41 <AnMaster> btw, I ate some fun food today.
19:09:33 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punsch-roll <-- this very Swedish pastry is as noted in the article called "vacuum cleaner" here. Well, they had an extra long version at a café I visited today... Guess what they called it?
19:09:35 <alise> "Fun"; that is some definition of fun, "hissing cockroaches".
19:09:45 <alise> AnMaster: Black hole?
19:09:53 <AnMaster> http://mewtwo.sporksirc.net/~anmaster/central_vacuum_cleaner.jpg
19:10:00 <pikhq> alise: Clearly Ubuntu managed to fucking break ALSA.
19:10:04 <alise> AnMaster: That's not... hilarious.
19:10:07 <AnMaster> yes doggy bag next to it. It was a bit too large.
19:10:14 <AnMaster> alise, I said fun, not hilarious
19:10:23 <alise> pikhq: You know, I don't think the _entire_ blame lies on Ubuntu's shoulders.
19:10:30 <AnMaster> alise, plus, Swedish humour. It exists but is incompatible with you.
19:10:37 <alise> They may be slightly incompetent, but you gotta admit, Linux audio isn't known to be very worky.
19:10:58 <pikhq> alise: Here's the thing: *I have yet to have issues with Linux audio*.
19:11:06 <coppro> like getting pulseaudio and timidity to work together
19:11:18 <calamari> alise: I only ever had problems when pulse came out
19:11:19 <alise> coppro: Here, YOU'RE the Stargate expert (Sgeo doesn't count), YOU name my file. (This is the most important thing.)
19:11:24 <alise> pikhq: Good hardware. Good luck.
19:11:25 <pikhq> On Linux 2.2, 2.4, and 2.6. OSS, pre-in-kernel ALSA, 2.6 ALSA.
19:11:27 <AnMaster> anyway, I can strongly recommend that café for anyone in Sweden that happens to pass by the town of Vara (located along E20 between Göteborg and Stockholm).
19:11:36 <pikhq> And I've used it on a *lot* of hardware.
19:11:41 <calamari> anot sure what was so wrong with oss or alsa
19:11:50 <alise> calamari: nothing at all.
19:11:56 <coppro> alise: call that one Vacuum and the other one Air :P
19:11:59 <alise> Just nothing that could be fixed with a new sound server above them.
19:11:59 <pikhq> I just haven't used any of the freaking bizarre audio abstraction layers...
19:12:14 <pikhq> Well, unless you count arts, which KDE 3 demanded.
19:12:23 <coppro> alise: the first parts are more about a lack of air :P
19:12:25 <alise> I think I'll go with "1.11.2 Air (Parts 1 & 2)", but I'll FEEL BAD ABOUT IT.
19:12:43 <alise> coppro: Gee, just go and spoil it; I was expecting them to suffocate and the rest of the series just to be footage of dead people.
19:13:01 <alise> Or colonise the planet and live peacefully with a few minor incidents, as they try to come to terms with their loneliness.
19:13:19 <coppro> SGU actually has significant attrition :)
19:13:55 <alise> Remind me not to talk to you about anything I haven't finished watching/reading/etc. yet. :)
19:14:01 <coppro> SPOILERS: Destiny's destination is an alternate earth, where they will pick up more people and then leave again
19:14:14 <alise> Please tell me you /are/ joking.
19:14:19 <AnMaster> <pikhq> alise: Here's the thing: *I have yet to have issues with Linux audio*. <-- the only issues I had so far has been with pulseaudio or jack. The latter is mostly my own fault for even trying to use that. Of course it works very well once it's set up. But the problem is that, setting it up.
19:14:37 <AnMaster> with pulseaudio.... well I wouldn't know where to start with describing the problems
19:14:39 <alise> coppro: I hate you, because now I have to look it up.
19:14:58 <alise> coppro: Hyperventilation over!
19:15:15 <pikhq> Adding abstraction servers to Linux audio is an absolutely retarded idea.
19:15:19 <pikhq> Why do people love doing it?
19:15:40 <coppro> because they can't think of any other ideas that sound so good but are really so bad
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19:15:54 <zzo38> \expandafter\forth\input
19:16:22 <pikhq> Would it kill them to just make the audio interface *work well*?
19:16:49 <alise> Elaborate justification for "1.11.2 Air (Parts 1 & 2)": En-dash to separate range is the Right Way to do things; series number must be included since it sometimes differs e.g. Voyager's "Unimatrix Zero"; the episodes are billed (Part N) for N in 1,2,3; there are two parts, and we should not insert "and" because it is more metasyntactic punctuation than actually part of the title.
19:16:50 <AnMaster> pikhq, just use dmix in case of lack of hardware mixing (which is the case for most hardware these days)
19:17:10 <alise> Oh snap, no, that would actually *work!*
19:17:22 <pikhq> Even ALSA, which *is* the audio interface for most Linux systems, has trouble with this...
19:17:25 <alise> zzo38: You're really writing ForthTeX?
19:17:36 <alise> pikhq: Tried OSSv4? You'll like it.
19:17:38 <pikhq> Why the HELL should you need a user library to just make the freaking audio interface work at all?
19:17:39 <alise> Did I mention OSSv4?
19:17:41 <AnMaster> alise, well, it's more work, and it would probably not work out of box, unless it provides alsa compatible APIs
19:17:49 <alise> AnMaster: It does.
19:17:53 <pikhq> AnMaster: There's nothing that does not support OSS.
19:18:00 <alise> AnMaster: In fact, you can also make libalsa /output to OSS/.
19:18:03 <AnMaster> pikhq, alsamixer? (sorry, bad joke)
19:18:11 <alise> AnMaster: Seriously. That's 100% compatibility.
19:18:14 <pikhq> Because OSS is the audio interface on all *other* UNIX systems.
19:18:19 <alise> Or you can use the slightly-worse OSSv4 fake libalsa.
19:18:22 <zzo38> alise: No, I am not writing ForthTeX. It is just something I thought about while sleeping yesterday
19:18:35 <AnMaster> alise, anyway, for me as it happens, alsa actually works well. Both on desktop and laptop
19:18:37 <pikhq> alise: Tempting, but ALSA "just works" here.
19:18:47 <AnMaster> no clue why, it's just the way it is
19:18:48 <alise> pikhq: Dude, you use Gentoo. You _have_ to break things on a regular basis.
19:19:05 <pikhq> alise: Things don't break here.
19:19:26 <pikhq> (okay, actually, I manage to break X every now and then.)
19:19:55 <AnMaster> indeed, things didn't break on Gentoo. I think I had to report way more bugs under ubuntu so far than on gentoo. And I used gentoo for like 5-6 years. Ubuntu for about one
19:20:01 <alise> zzo38: Perhaps instead of {...} pushing a "formatting stack", it could instead push a code block/quotation a la Joy. Then \sf would mean "sans-serif for the rest of the 'program'", where "program" is like a scope; i.e. it'd end after you finish executing the {...}.
19:20:13 <alise> Although perhaps the pushing-a-formatting-stack would be a saner idea.
19:20:16 <AnMaster> arch I think is lowest but I used that less on non-servers than either of the other
19:20:21 <alise> Not that ForthTeX is a sane idea in the first place.
19:20:23 <zzo38> But this might work: \forth ' [TEX] ASSIGN-GULLET unforth [TEX] \def\inputforth#1{\forth\input #1 \unforth}
19:20:31 <zzo38> (But I don't know about this way either)
19:20:33 <AnMaster> only like half a year on main desktop
19:20:44 <alise> zzo38: That's the boring way, though. It should be a Forth integrated into the TeX, not TeX with Forth support.
19:20:46 <pikhq> Somehow, Gentoo is a reasonably stable system. Something that appears to have a bleeding-edge philosophy.
19:20:54 <zzo38> Yes, of course it is not sane idea.....
19:21:05 <AnMaster> alise, so yeah, gentoo's issue is actually the compile time. It _breaks_ less than other distros IME
19:21:15 <alise> AnMaster: It's Gentoo's /users/ that break it.
19:21:41 <zzo38> WE ARE INSANITY!!!!!!
19:21:50 <AnMaster> alise, like those with insane CFLAGS. But well... I only know one such user, and he started using sane cflags later on
19:21:56 <alise> zzo38: You could use {...} as strings that way, too.
19:22:04 <alise> {sansserif} \fontname
19:22:48 <AnMaster> would forthtex be like luatex? Or would it use a separate syntax? Or is it something like literal forth programming?
19:23:01 <zzo38> I don't think such things can work unless it is entirely remade such that it is not TeX anymore
19:23:06 <alise> ForthTeX wouldn't really be TeX at all.
19:23:14 <zzo38> But using \forth to switch works better in my opinion
19:23:19 <alise> In my view, "\foo" would be execute-Forth-word-foo.
19:23:26 <alise> Normal words would just be "text" typeset.
19:23:31 <AnMaster> well, there is an issue there. If you don't pass some test suite, iirc Knuth gets angry about you using the name TeX
19:23:34 <alise> { would push a new "formatting stack"
19:23:50 <alise> so \sf would say, change the font to sans-serif
19:23:51 <alise> on the top formatting stack
19:23:52 <AnMaster> not sure if it is a registered trademark or such, if it is, you would need to follow it
19:23:55 <zzo38> AnMaster: Yes, exactly, and it is also something I agree with as well, even if Knuth doesn't get angry
19:24:01 <alise> AnMaster: It's just a codename :P
19:24:08 <alise> It was more like TeX when I thought of it...
19:24:20 <alise> \def \ForthTeX {\sf FORTH}\TeX \end
19:24:32 <alise> So \def would read a word, and get \ForthTeX back.
19:24:37 <alise> Start defining just like Forth...
19:24:57 <zzo38> Yes, that is like Forth, but then it wouldn't be TeX
19:24:58 <alise> Then we have the \pushfmt instruction, the \sf instruction, the "FORTH" text, the \popfmt instruction, the \TeX instruction, and we stop.
19:25:16 <alise> The "FORTH" text would be handled like numbers in Forth; "TEXT" instruction followed by the text, just like "2" -> "LITERAL 2" or whatever.
19:25:21 <alise> zzo38: Fine; FORTHSeT.
19:26:04 <alise> You could have a command ending with {, actually.
19:26:14 <alise> \def \boldblock {\bf \end
19:26:20 <alise> \boldblock LOL BOLD}
19:26:28 <alise> Since { and } would just be sugar for \pushfmt and \popfmt...
19:27:59 <zzo38> My idea using \forth to switch, it has something like LuaTeX, but not quite, because TeX doesn't even see your Forth program, it is just switched, instead of using TeX's eyes/mouth/body you use the Forth and then it go back after, so you would define a Forth code in outer usually, and integrate it using ASSIGN-GULLET and so on
19:28:20 <zzo38> As well possibly as other commands such as TEX-PARSE TEX-SEND-TOKEN and so on
19:28:56 <zzo38> alise: Yes your way, can be called ForthSeT, it might work
19:31:58 <zzo38> But I never modified TeX (although I have read parts of the TeX source codes to clarify things), I wrote PipeTeX, which should be workable using any version of TeX, without having to modify each one.
19:32:25 <alise> Someone recommend me a Linux distro to toy around with that isn't Gentoo or Arch.
19:32:33 <alise> Ubuntu has officially reached my Ultimately Annoyed state.
19:32:37 <zzo38> (The logo for PipeTeX isn't as complicated as things like LaTeX and AMS-TeX and so on, just {Pipe\TeX})
19:32:46 <zzo38> alise: Linux-From-Scratch
19:33:05 <zzo38> alise: Linux-From-UnScratch
19:33:16 <alise> {\sf FORTH}\TeX: the only logo that matters!
19:37:20 <zzo38> Does such a thing as Linux-From-Unscratch exist?
19:39:41 <zzo38> Some people say that literate programming forces you to document your program and therefore write a better code, but that isn't true at all. What it does do, however, is it makes it much easier to document your code!
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19:41:23 <oerjan> <AnMaster> hm, where is oerjan when you need him
19:41:42 <AnMaster> oerjan, oh yeah. Interesting turn of events in IWC eh?
19:42:20 <AnMaster> oerjan, it raises a lot of questions though
19:42:35 <zzo38> coppro: Not like that, though. Not like typing "// assign 4 to i", that is clear by the printout might be something like "i <-- 4" you can already see it assigns 4 to i
19:42:57 <oerjan> like why the heck has shakespeare not given any indication of being from the past before
19:45:10 <oerjan> also i'm not sure i _like_ this idea of explaining things "rationally" this way, it takes away the mystery. in fact that was one of the things i didn't like about the end of the Ed stories
19:46:15 <alise> Yes, but... that's because you're you. No offence.
19:46:16 <fizzie> AnMaster: http://zem.fi/~fis/20100805_001-009.jpg http://zem.fi/~fis/20100806_001-007.jpg
19:46:38 <alise> The word for a random, unexplained thread that holds the whole story together without any apparent justification is a "plot hole".
19:46:50 <oerjan> (it became serious and logical rather than crazy and whimsical)
19:47:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, okay, on hotel wlan. Will take ages to load
19:47:11 <alise> it became that since Be Here Now
19:47:17 <AnMaster> would take some pics through the window, except it is fairly boring
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19:47:22 <oerjan> now which one was that
19:47:28 <alise> oerjan: the /first long story/
19:47:38 <alise> if it wasn't serious by Be Here Now, it definitely was by Spacd
19:47:43 <AnMaster> fizzie, wait, is that like .fi dreamhack or such?
19:47:49 <fizzie> AnMaster: There are _small.jpg variants, but...
19:47:50 <oerjan> alise: thank you for an answer that gives my memory absolutely nothing to remember it by
19:48:07 <alise> oerjan: Be Here Now -- time travelling, Kerrig mountain facility
19:48:08 <zzo38> But a literate programming system contains features that can be useful regardless of the amount of documentation you are including, such as the index and table of contents, and code chunks.....
19:48:19 <alise> Spacd -- whoops Epsilon Eridriani doesn't exist
19:48:21 <fizzie> AnMaster: I don't remember what DreamHack is; gaming or demoscene?
19:49:03 <fizzie> AnMaster: Well, this used to be a demoscene event. Nowadays it's a hybrid sort of thing.
19:49:37 <oerjan> oh well, anyhow i liked the whimsical ones best
19:49:41 <zzo38> In the PipeTeX codes, I don't think I need to document every section, some should be self-explanatory, and I don't need to document it as m much as some people do, but there is still some missing, which I can add in the next version
19:49:55 <alise> oerjan: ok, so let's say Spacd, since Be Here Now isn't that serious. it's lighthearted, but not the same sort of jokey story that the short stories are at the start, when setting the stage in the first two paragraphs. after that, it's serious (the raretl ivehf)
19:50:16 <pikhq> alise: Y'know what else would be nice? A short story collection containing of qntm.org
19:50:21 <alise> the opening stories haven't got much substance really and are really stage-setters
19:50:25 <alise> *really just stage-setters
19:50:32 <alise> Be Here Now is short compared to the others
19:50:46 <alise> so really, the Ed stories are serious for a majority of their length
19:51:17 <alise> Also, I can't use Slack. Actually I'm not sure what I can use: I need a recent kernel to support my Ethernet.
19:51:25 <pikhq> alise: All the short stories on qntm that aren't part of a story.
19:51:27 <alise> The last Ubuntu didn't support the card.
19:51:34 <zzo38> alise: Then upgrade the kernel.
19:51:41 <pikhq> Typeset as a single volume?
19:51:43 <alise> zzo38: Can't do that without internet.
19:51:49 <alise> pikhq: I'd like to finish the Ed stories, first.
19:52:00 <zzo38> alise: Can't you do it with a DVD, or something like that?
19:52:04 <alise> pikhq: And that includes Free, Standing as an epilogue.
19:52:08 <alise> zzo38: No optical drive.
19:52:14 <AnMaster> fizzie, okay, took some (free hand) pics
19:52:16 <alise> pikhq: The next Sam Hughes thing I'm likely to typeset is Fine Structure, but I'll have to read it first.
19:52:18 <zzo38> alise: Can you use USB?
19:52:26 <alise> zzo38: Yes. But at that point I get too bored.
19:52:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, I'll see if I can do anything usable with it
19:52:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, btw those images were not panos right?
19:52:38 <alise> 05:18:04 <augur> you're only allowed to use alise's haskell on pro-GNOME operating systems.
19:52:38 <oerjan> ok then but something changed in tone when the andromedans got introduced.
19:53:00 <AnMaster> fizzie, the dark one looks much more like fish eye
19:53:33 <alise> oerjan: that's hardly the ending though. anyway what would you have preferred, he having destroyed Andromeda and nothing coming of it? what would be the point of that having happened, then?
19:53:42 <fizzie> AnMaster: 9 and 7 pics; taken with the phone, can't really switch lenses on that one. (Well, maybe with some sort of adapter.)
19:53:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, this is going to be my real camera
19:54:05 <AnMaster> I'll transfer it in a few seconds
19:54:19 <AnMaster> and see if I can make a pano out of it
19:54:22 <pikhq> alise: Perhaps Tyro?
19:54:47 <fizzie> AnMaster: I'm here with the N900 (64k compo is about to start in 7 minutes), so I won't probably even try to look at any large images before I get out.
19:54:59 <alise> pikhq: I started reading Tyro and concluded Sam was right, it's crap writing.
19:55:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, I'll scale them down. I'm on bad wlan
19:55:21 <pikhq> I quite like the concept. But yeah, Sam has definitely improved.
19:55:37 <alise> pikhq: The Fourth-And-A-Halfth Planet I would do something with if I understood it one damn bit.
19:55:38 <AnMaster> Bit Rate=24 Mb/s Tx-Power=15 dBm
19:55:41 <AnMaster> Link Quality=38/70 Signal level=-72 dBm
19:55:48 <fizzie> In other news, huge amount (over 15) of 4k entries this year here.
19:55:56 <pikhq> Oh God I love that one.
19:56:15 <fizzie> AnMaster: WLAN here is so bad, I'm just using this 384k 3G.
19:56:36 <AnMaster> fizzie, doesn't the n900 supports more than that?
19:56:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, besides all those computers down the stairs look like they use ethernet
19:57:15 <fizzie> Yes, but I'd need to pay more for using more than that. :p
19:57:24 <alise> 08:39:21 <cpressey> I'm trying to read the source for Epigram (literate Haskell). I should probably stop because I don't know enough about type theory to tell when they're joking or not.
19:57:24 <alise> That's just Conor.
19:57:31 <alise> Sit back and enjoy the ride; not even he knows.
19:57:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, this wlan is free when you have a hotel room
19:57:46 <alise> http://www.e-pig.org/darcs/Pig09/src/Epitome.pdf, for anyone who wants to gawp.
19:58:11 <fizzie> AnMaster: The wlan here is free, but it's too sucky to use.
19:58:18 <AnMaster> considering user/pw I very much doubt they could prevent someone over the street from using it...
19:58:46 <fizzie> AnMaster: I just meant that 3G speeds >384k would mean a more costly mobile subscription thing.
19:59:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway it will be below my usual standard... ISO400
20:00:16 <alise> 09:47:25 <AnMaster> and I noticed yesterday that it didn't like "movie"
20:00:16 <alise> in en-GB it is "film".
20:00:18 <fizzie> Everyone with a computer place (and the associated ethernet switch port) is supposed to be using it, but there's still overcrowding, and I guess they just don't pay that much attention to the wlan.
20:00:24 <alise> "movie" is en-usism
20:01:09 <alise> 09:52:00 <cpressey> Fine, DOCTOR WHO. Anyway, I've noticed that happens a lot -- you learn a word, then suddenly hear it used. It's probably some kind of psychological trick, like, you heard the word before, but you didn't know what it meant, so you didn't retain the memory the same way.
20:01:10 <AnMaster> alise, hm, most UK people I know use movie too
20:01:31 <alise> AnMaster: they probably say "gonna" at least occasionally IRL too.
20:01:37 <alise> it's called osmosis
20:01:57 <AnMaster> alise, but I strongly suspect this dict is based on something like a too-old-to-be-copyrighted word list + some new stuff added in.
20:02:28 <AnMaster> which I noticed before but I can't recall right atm
20:03:30 <pikhq> AnMaster: Factual data cannot be copyrighted, though a specific presentation can be.
20:04:11 <oerjan> pikhq: compilation copyright?
20:05:17 <alise> 10:39:00 <Phantom_Hoover> I can't eat kittens‽ Even ones that aren't my pet?
20:05:40 <alise> 10:56:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, now my kitten has died of terminal stupidity.
20:06:06 <oerjan> Eating kittens is just plain wrong! And no one should do it! EVER!
20:06:53 <alise> http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lex5sz.jpg
20:06:57 * oerjan continues the tradition of quoting quotes without having seen the original
20:10:15 <alise> pikhq: How good is Slack's driver support?
20:12:46 -!- Sgeo has joined.
20:14:44 <alise> Does FreeBSD have a livecd these days?
20:15:20 -!- RoxFox64 has joined.
20:15:34 <calamari> alise: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=freebsd+livecd
20:15:49 <RoxFox64> Anyone here still using befunge?
20:16:06 <fungot> pikhq: it was fragrant with the scent of abomination. hear a speech declaring a holy war, is the man insane? some idiot missionary gets himself killed, some man writes some gibberish about the shape of a dragon, wonse?"
20:16:34 <alise> `addquote <fungot> pikhq: it was fragrant with the scent of abomination. hear a speech declaring a holy war, is the man insane? some idiot missionary gets himself killed, some man writes some gibberish about the shape of a dragon, wonse?"
20:16:35 <fungot> alise: he was lounging in a chair surrounded by scrolls and scraps of paper. it had worked. he'd always been aware of it?
20:16:46 <alise> "it was fragrant with the scent of abomination."; new favourite quote.
20:16:51 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld* europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
20:17:07 <HackEgo> 207|<fungot> pikhq: it was fragrant with the scent of abomination. hear a speech declaring a holy war, is the man insane? some idiot missionary gets himself killed, some man writes some gibberish about the shape of a dragon, wonse?"
20:17:58 <calamari> btw, is it possible to have a remote swap file, or does linux prevent it?
20:18:13 <alise> calamari: well, it's a swap partition. so, yes, like this:
20:18:21 <alise> use NFS to mount the remote host.
20:18:28 <alise> have a "foo" file on it.
20:18:32 <alise> mount -t swap -o loop foo
20:18:35 <alise> or however you mount swap these days
20:18:40 <RoxFox64> alise: Sweet. I managed to find small(But, old) interpreter that turns befunge to c. Then I made a script for linux, and a batch for windows to compile it, run it and dispose of it.
20:18:51 <alise> RoxFox64: It doesn't turn Befunge into C.
20:18:57 <alise> It bundles Befunge code with an interpreter.
20:19:34 <calamari> alise: thanks I was trying to use mkswap and swapon.. maybe mount -t swap is what I needed
20:20:07 <RoxFox64> alise: I haven't bothered to look through the source fully. I just know it generates a c source.
20:20:27 <RoxFox64> I just wish I were more creative
20:20:44 <RoxFox64> I'd be able to make some complex stuff
20:20:59 <alise> calamari: I don't think mount -t swap actually works.
20:21:05 <alise> [["We caused that asteroid belt, four and a half billion years ago," said James. "It was going to condense into a planet called Earth, which was going to become our home planet when we eventually evolved on it. But we went back in time and blew it up."
20:21:06 <alise> Chay nodded sagely. "Why?"]]
20:21:07 <RoxFox64> Heck, I'd use Befunge for something like ASCII if I were
20:22:53 <alise> pikhq: How long does a Gentoo install last these days/
20:22:57 <alise> RoxFox64: "something like ascii"?
20:24:41 * RoxFox64 should make a befunge IDE of sorts
20:25:23 <Sgeo> I love Smalltalk, but I absolutely despise smalltalk.org
20:25:27 <RoxFox64> Only thing I'd really have to do is make a text editor that forced insert mode on a row of spaces though.
20:26:35 <pikhq> alise: Day or two?
20:26:46 <alise> pikhq: I thought the compile-everything installs were deprecated.
20:26:50 <AnMaster> ah... auto exposure... how could I forget. Well too dark outside now to correct this
20:27:14 <alise> Sgeo: I've never heard of smalltalk.org. Ignore it.
20:27:17 <pikhq> alise: This is counting a complex desktop environment such as KDE or Gnome.
20:27:20 <alise> AnMaster: How long is a Gentoo install!
20:27:26 <pikhq> alise: It's quite a bit less time if you have lesser needs.
20:27:40 <alise> Ah fuck it, why does stuff suck so much.
20:27:51 <pikhq> Perhaps an hour or two for one's initial install getting to a base, bootable system.
20:27:54 <alise> Blah blah whine moan.
20:28:00 <alise> pikhq: Okay. So how is Slack's driver support?
20:28:08 <AnMaster> <alise> AnMaster: How long is a Gentoo install! <-- on what system?
20:28:09 <pikhq> alise: Should be "reasonable".
20:28:11 <calamari> alsie, sorry, the matrix has you
20:28:33 <Sgeo> In a way it's a ironicly funny and twisted sorry state that those that promote the "safety of typed systems" and "additional capabilities of typed systems" also are promoting the "barren space devoid of the richness of runtime meta data".
20:28:36 <pikhq> It won't have proprietary drivers by default but it should have pretty much of Linux's supported drivers.
20:28:37 <AnMaster> alise, are we talking about a dual-cpu system consisting of quad core xeon i7?
20:28:40 <Sgeo> ^^from that site, not from me
20:29:03 <Sgeo> Are they utterly unaware that many statically typed languages (including C#) have metadata?
20:29:44 <pikhq> Sgeo: Non-static polymorphism kinda requires it.
20:29:50 <alise> pikhq: Ubuntu's last release lacked my Ethernet driver. The current one has it.
20:29:52 <alise> Does Slack have it?
20:30:03 <pikhq> (where "static polymorphism" is C++ templates)
20:30:06 <alise> AnMaster: It's fast enough.
20:30:20 <alise> pikhq: It's ... Archos, I think.
20:33:36 <alise> The issue with the "spartan" distros is that I assemble the "perfect environment" then it ends up irritating me for no apparent reason. I don't know why. I'm strange.
20:34:55 <AnMaster> here is a reduced size version: http://mewtwo.sporksirc.net/~anmaster/images/gothenburg2010/hotel_window_small.jpg
20:36:21 <alise> pikhq: Diagnose me. :P
20:37:11 <pikhq> alise: You must write an OS.
20:37:39 <Sgeo> His own OS will end up irritating him!
20:37:48 <calamari> write an os where everything is a dependency
20:38:07 <Sgeo> Far worse than the "perfect environment", imagine the scale of a "perfect os"'s irrittation
20:38:13 <Sgeo> Why is my a key broken?
20:38:26 <alise> pikhq: That isn't a diagnosis.
20:39:04 <pikhq> alise: No, it's a prescription.
20:39:12 <alise> pikhq: For what illness?
20:39:27 <pikhq> alise: NIH Syndrome.
20:39:45 <alise> pikhq: I know I have /that/; what's /this/ illness?
20:39:49 <alise> Also, how much does KDE4 suck?
20:40:21 <calamari> alise: well it made me go back to gnome, does tha help? lol
20:40:32 <AnMaster> alise, actually this current one is exactly NIH
20:40:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, full size at http://mewtwo.sporksirc.net/~anmaster/images/gothenburg2010/hotel_window.jpg
20:41:29 <alise> calamari: yeah but that's /gnome/
20:41:42 <calamari> AnMaster: did you use a program to stitch that?
20:42:07 <AnMaster> calamari, no, I looked at the tif images then wrote a new one in a hex editor
20:42:14 <AnMaster> calamari, of course I used one.
20:42:22 <AnMaster> hugin, same as fizzie used for his picture above
20:42:41 <AnMaster> calamari, that is http://zem.fi/~fis/20100805_001-009.jpg
20:42:49 <AnMaster> and http://zem.fi/~fis/20100806_001-007.jpg
20:43:20 <fizzie> AnMaster: Even the reduced-size version isn't very phone-friendly; but I guess it's okay for this half-a-gig-of-RAM iBook.
20:43:46 <AnMaster> fizzie, I'm on my 4GB of RAM thinkpad atm
20:43:53 <calamari> okay I guess I'll ask fizzie when he gets back
20:44:11 <fizzie> I used to have 1.25G of RAM in this, but I donated a gigabyte away.
20:44:27 <alise> Okay, someone name something other than Arch in a few minutes, or the kitty gets it.
20:44:35 <calamari> fizzie: what stitching program are you using?
20:44:46 <fizzie> AnMaster: I got a .25 back for the 1 I gave away.
20:44:50 <fizzie> calamari: The same as AnMaster. :p
20:44:53 <AnMaster> calamari, anyway I told you the app above. hugin
20:44:54 <fizzie> calamari: (That is, Hugin.)
20:45:18 -!- RoxFox64 has left (?).
20:45:35 <AnMaster> calamari, it was right at the start of this line: <AnMaster> hugin, same as fizzie used for his picture above
20:45:46 <calamari> yeah I thought that was some kind of insult
20:45:59 <fizzie> calamari: "You're such a hugin!"
20:46:04 <calamari> you were being weird so I figured you didn't want to tell me lol
20:46:15 <alise> The kitty is about to get it.
20:46:29 <AnMaster> calamari, no, I just thought it was obvious you can't do that without a program
20:46:37 <AnMaster> I mean, you need to do lots of corrections
20:46:49 <calamari> AnMaster: I've done it with the gimp
20:47:00 <fizzie> If you have a real, calibrated panorama-head, you can sort-of do it with just regular image-processing tools.
20:47:09 <AnMaster> calamari, I mean, I get a horrible stitch if I don't optimise the various lens distortion parameters
20:47:21 <AnMaster> but then that is taken at most zoomed out setting
20:47:24 <alise> You're all responsible for a feline's death.
20:47:40 <AnMaster> calamari, anyway with gimp you will likely get a very bad match
20:47:54 <alise> JFS! JFS roolz, other filesystems droolz.
20:47:56 <calamari> yeah my results weren't very good
20:48:15 <calamari> that's why I was either going to be very impressed or want to know what program you used.. anyhow.. lol
20:48:20 <fizzie> Also, there were only 6 64k entries; it tends to oscillate.
20:49:05 <fizzie> Every other year there's a whole bunch of great 64k's and very few 4k's; and then the opposite for the next year.
20:49:29 <alise> I'm a doctor, and I killed a kitten!
20:49:43 <AnMaster> fizzie, any known reason for it?
20:50:22 <alise> You are all completely oblivious to my afriddiliminosik.
20:50:30 <fizzie> Possibly it's because people think "oh, there were so few Xk entries this year, maybe I'll write one for the next year, since it'll be easier to win".
20:50:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, so the best strategy would be to go for the other one?
20:51:07 <AnMaster> the one with many entries last year
20:51:23 <fizzie> Possibly, though it's by no means an exact rule, just a tendency.
20:51:27 <calamari> right so definitely go for 4k next year
20:51:32 <alise> anyone know my postcode? i need it
20:52:05 <fizzie> Also it seems that doing oldskool entries is reasonably safe, since the amount of those has been declining for the last few years; this time there were only 4 oldskool demo entries.
20:53:19 <alise> the nice thing with 4k demos is that there are only so many ones that exist; you can rule out all of the ones that already exist, since you won't want to copy them
20:53:31 <alise> meaning that you have a pretty good chance to hit on a good demo vs a bad one, vs a bigger file size!
20:53:42 <AnMaster> fizzie, why not make a 4k one and then submit it to both, but pad it with 60k for the 64k one?
20:54:17 <fizzie> Generally you'd need to have a bit more content in a 64k entry. But you could possibly do a 4k, and then an "extended edition" 64k.
20:54:36 <AnMaster> hm yeah that sounds like a good idea
20:55:10 <alise> Damn UNetbootin, you crazy.
20:55:35 <fizzie> It's a bit gaming-the-rules thing; I'm not sure if they have anything explicitly against it, though. And it *is* common to do stuff like using the same C64 picture both as an entry in the graphics compo and as a part of a C64 demo.
20:56:36 <alise> it can do crazy things.
20:56:53 <alise> like boot a Linux live CD and install it when all you have is a drive running windows, no optical or USB drives
20:58:16 <AnMaster> ah, not that hard assuming you can fit the cd image in memory
20:58:38 <AnMaster> (assuming you want to over-write windows)
20:59:10 <alise> AnMaster: not about memory
20:59:18 <alise> it unpacks a bootloader plus the squashfs file into C:\
20:59:26 <alise> adds a bootloader option into Windows' bootloader
20:59:33 <alise> that boots the bootloader from C:\
20:59:36 <alise> which then boots the squashfs
20:59:42 <alise> which then sees itself /and/ the windows partition
20:59:49 <AnMaster> alise, my solution would be to put ntfs-3g or such on the initramfs and then loop mount the iso
20:59:52 <alise> admittedly, you need a spare partition to install
21:00:02 <alise> AnMaster: how would you boot it in the first place?
21:00:08 <pikhq> alise: So, it's exploiting how live CDs work. Nice.
21:00:41 <AnMaster> alise, little known fact: bootloader of windows nt/xp and presumably later versions can chainload grub
21:00:49 <AnMaster> if you put grub in a file on the ntfs partition
21:00:59 <alise> AnMaster: yeah, um, that's what unetbootin does
21:01:01 <AnMaster> iirc you copy the mbr (perhaps some more)
21:01:06 <alise> except with syslinux i think iirc
21:01:08 <alise> since it's ntfs...
21:01:14 <AnMaster> alise, okay that works too, but I done it with grub
21:01:36 <fizzie> I've only done it with LILO; grub's some sort of newfangled nonsense!
21:03:20 <AnMaster> anyway, with tmpfs and then unmounting the iso and the ntfs-3g fs you could easily resize the windows partition from there, or even overwrite it. Of course... if something goes wrong, or you lose power... you are not going to like it
21:03:29 <alise> Now booting into Arch to see if it supports my Ethernet.
21:03:33 -!- alise has quit.
21:04:26 <AnMaster> I never heard of that being an issue... wlan yes
21:05:05 <fizzie> If it's something very new, there might be a bit of a lag for the supporting.
21:05:38 <fizzie> Or even just a new variant that switches PCI ids or some-such to make it not autodetektize correctly.
21:05:52 <fizzie> (That sort of stuff gets fixed real fast, of course.)
21:18:10 <Sgeo> "Smalltalk is based on the idea, that if you both want to define @, then you probably are defining it with the same semantics :)"
21:19:21 <AnMaster> well, that is the effect of that
21:24:36 <Sgeo> My objection (not as related to duck typing as AnMaster thinks) may be ended
21:25:18 <AnMaster> Sgeo, if it was your objection, why did you quote it?
21:25:48 <Sgeo> My problem wasn't that MyClass and YourClass might both define #something, it was that both my project and your project might define Object>>something
21:25:57 <Sgeo> AnMaster, I was quoting someone's response
21:26:31 <AnMaster> hm I can't say I know smalltalk. What does >> do?
21:27:27 <Sgeo> It doesn't do anything, it's just a convention to say, in the case of Object>>something, Object defines a method something
21:28:34 -!- ais523 has joined.
21:32:34 <Sgeo> aBag = Bag new. aBag add: ais523.
21:32:51 <Sgeo> aBag := Bag new. aBag add: ais523.
21:33:01 <Sgeo> The second one, not the first
21:33:02 <ais523> also, why are you trying to add me to a new bag?
21:33:47 <ais523> random fact: Feather's syntax is designed to resemble SmallTalk's as much as possible whilst meaning something completely different
21:35:35 <AnMaster> ais523, okay now post the details on that
21:35:54 <ais523> I haven't worked them out yet
21:35:57 <AnMaster> ais523, or is this just a joke at our expense? A DNF of esolangs
21:36:07 <ais523> DNF is actually a good comparison
21:36:16 <ais523> because it was being worked on right until the point where it was cancelled, apparently
21:36:36 <AnMaster> ais523, well, feather isn't cancelled is it?
21:37:20 <oerjan> it may have been cancelled already in the future
21:38:39 -!- alise has joined.
21:38:48 <alise> I was going to say something--
21:38:57 <alise> Linux really doesn't need swap if I have 4 GiB of RAM, right?
21:39:04 <alise> Or, if it does: why, and how much?
21:39:23 <Sgeo> aBag add: alise.
21:39:55 <alise> Sgeo: I wonder why they didn't call it a Set.
21:40:04 <Sgeo> alise, it has sets
21:40:07 <alise> Well, at least Sgeo is growing taste in languages.
21:40:18 <Sgeo> Bags can contain duplicates
21:40:20 <alise> ais523: any opinions on that swap thing? :-P
21:40:20 <AnMaster> <alise> Linux really doesn't need swap if I have 4 GiB of RAM, right? <-- do you want suspend to disk?
21:40:22 <ais523> the difference between a bag and a set is that bags contain duplicates
21:40:32 <ais523> alise: I don't know much about swapping
21:40:38 <alise> AnMaster: Well, not /especially/, but it would be quite nice ...
21:40:42 <alise> AnMaster: Can't it use my proper disk?
21:40:44 <ais523> but AnMaster's correct in that you need swap to be able to hibernate
21:40:51 <alise> ais523: Okay; firstly, why? secondly, why?
21:40:52 <AnMaster> alise, it uses swap for hibernate
21:40:54 <ais523> because the way it's implemented is by swapping everything out of memory, and then shutting down
21:41:03 <coppro> what is Sgeo working on now
21:41:03 <alise> And why can't it just swap out ... to disk?
21:41:06 <alise> As in, an existing program?
21:41:09 <alise> coppro: he's just learning Smalltalk.
21:41:11 <AnMaster> alise, what do you mean, to disk
21:41:15 <ais523> then when you load again, everything's in swap, and it swaps it out as it reads it
21:41:15 <alise> coppro: so the ladies will like him.
21:41:19 <alise> AnMaster: to my existing / partition
21:41:23 <AnMaster> alise, to disk, yes your swap partition on the disk
21:41:26 <alise> a specified partition with stuff on it already
21:41:37 <ais523> alise: presumably it would be a mess, because it would require unswapping everything immediately on boot
21:41:41 <ais523> or else leaving the file around
21:41:48 <alise> But existing OSes do this...
21:41:56 <ais523> I don't see any huge barriers to the concept, but it would be harder to implement, thus probably hasn't been
21:41:56 <alise> Okay, so, what, I should have four freaking gigs of swap?!
21:41:58 <AnMaster> alise, well I don't know if hibernate supports swap files, but you can use a file as swap, not really recommended due to slower performance
21:42:03 <AnMaster> still it needs to be fixed in size
21:42:18 <ais523> and it's fine for the swap to be smaller
21:42:24 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway, how comes encrypted swap works?
21:42:26 <ais523> the hibernate just fails if you're using more memory at the time than you have swap
21:42:36 <ais523> AnMaster: it works just like normal swap, but encrypted..
21:42:42 <alise> Okay, anyone want to check if a swap file can be hibernated to?
21:42:48 <alise> Then you'd just do
21:42:52 <alise> [initiate swap file]
21:42:54 <AnMaster> ais523, means that the initramfs somehow gets the kernel to load from the right partition?
21:42:56 <alise> Then, post-hibernate:
21:43:01 <alise> [disable swap file]
21:43:02 <alise> [remove swap file]
21:43:07 <ais523> can you hot-disable a swap file?
21:43:15 <alise> ais523: Well, "swapoff"...
21:43:28 <ais523> hmm, in that case, incorporating swapoff into the hibernate routine would make sense
21:43:30 <ais523> (I didn't know it existed)
21:43:32 <alise> So /if/ you can hibernate to a swap file, that should work great. The question is, can you?
21:43:41 <alise> This is kind of important because JFS sort of sucks at resizing.
21:43:52 <alise> By "sort of sucks" I basically mean "it doesn't really support it at all".
21:44:19 <ais523> alise: http://wiki.debian.org/Hibernation/Hibernate_Without_Swap_Partition might be useful
21:44:22 <ais523> I have no idea how accurate it is
21:44:25 <alise> Arch has initialised my console to full 1366x768 resolution. It's quite bizarre.
21:44:31 <alise> ais523: I have even less of a web browser than you right now.
21:44:55 <ais523> it suggests making a lot of config changes to the way swapping works, and installing a package called "uswsusp"
21:45:00 <AnMaster> alise, hm, I found ext4 a reliable work horse. Sure, not the fastest one, or the one having most features, but very very solid.
21:45:22 <AnMaster> on a HA linux server I would probably go for ext4 on RAID6 or such
21:45:50 <ais523> there's also an Ubuntu bug report, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/252143
21:46:01 <alise> AnMaster: I didn't ask what filesystem to use.
21:46:03 <ais523> where they complain about the UI being incapable of realising that hibernation is possible even when it is, in a no-swapfile setup
21:46:12 <alise> JFS has the best disaster recovery of any production-ready Linux filesystem, btw.
21:46:12 <AnMaster> <alise> Arch has initialised my console to full 1366x768 resolution. It's quite bizarre. <-- you mean frame buffer?
21:46:16 <alise> (And the quickest recovery.)
21:46:19 <alise> AnMaster: I don't know; presumably.
21:46:22 <alise> AnMaster: Because it's only a console!
21:46:32 <alise> ``I love how fag quotes work properly with the default console fonts.''
21:46:35 <AnMaster> alise, um, almost every distro I used does that
21:46:53 <ais523> apparently WUBI used to use a hibernate-to-swapfile setup (due to not repartitioning anything)
21:47:02 <ais523> but it was buggy in some way the bug report doesn't explain
21:47:02 <alise> ais523: So, does it work properly?
21:47:07 <alise> Do I really give a damn?
21:47:34 <ais523> the implication I get is fast, but buggy in some distros
21:47:42 <alise> Right. Buggy I can handle; I'm using Arch.
21:47:45 <alise> Buggy, I am absolutely prepared for.
21:47:57 <alise> Now, ASIDE from hibernation, will I need swap with 4 GiBs of RAM?
21:48:02 <alise> No assuming ridiculous usecases, AnMaster.
21:48:18 <ais523> anyway, hibernate-to-file should work just fine in theory, even without additional setup
21:48:29 <ais523> and I suppose we can find out via experiment how it fails in practice
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21:48:43 <alise> AnMaster: I thought you would go all ``Well if you're reconfiguring the LHC, you'll need more...''
21:48:52 <AnMaster> alise, well, I don't know what is ridiculous to you. Presumably you don't stitch HDR panoramas. Which makes my thinkpad swap trash
21:48:58 <alise> ais523: Then I'll fill the rest of my disk.
21:49:04 <alise> AnMaster: 'Deed I don't.
21:49:15 <AnMaster> alise, compile ghc or open office?
21:49:26 <alise> AnMaster: GHC doesn't take much RAM to compile. I don't _want_ OpenOffice.
21:49:31 <alise> I compile GHC quite often; distros suck at it.
21:49:39 <alise> GHC is slow to compile, yes, but not hoggy.
21:49:50 <alise> I only have ~120 GiB of free disk, so saving 4 GiB will be nice.
21:49:52 <ais523> alise: out of interest, do you want any office software (AbiWord or Microsoft Word on WINE or whatever)?
21:49:56 <ais523> or are you happy without it?
21:49:56 <alise> No swap partition it is.
21:50:04 <AnMaster> that is quite ridiculous though
21:50:07 <Phantom_Hoover> What's wrong with the version of GHC in Ubuntu's repositories?
21:50:08 <alise> ais523: Ouch at the latter. AbiWord is ... acceptable, when I have to use it.
21:50:19 <ais523> AnMaster: why on earth would you be using more threads than 1.5 times the number of cores you have?
21:50:22 <alise> ais523: I generally either jot down stuff in a text file or use LaTeX. Or HTML.
21:50:31 <AnMaster> ais523, rounded upwards or downwards?
21:50:32 <ais523> the only reason you use more threads than the number of cores you have at all is a scheduler bug
21:50:35 <alise> ais523: Why on earth would you be using more threads than the number of cores you have? Because you're using a broken scheduler.
21:50:44 <alise> ais523: BTW, Con Kolivas' Brain Fuck Scheduler fixes that issue.
21:50:49 <alise> optimal performance is -j<cores>
21:50:51 <ais523> AnMaster: I don't know; does it really matter?
21:50:59 <AnMaster> ais523, and no reason at all, unless they are somehow network IO bound or such, with latency being the main bottleneck
21:51:16 <AnMaster> so if you use NFS over IP over avian carrier I guess it might be reasonable
21:51:22 <pikhq> Hmm. I wonder how easy it is to get BFS on Gentoo.
21:51:36 <pikhq> Brain Fuck Scheduler.
21:51:59 <ais523> is -j1 fastest for a single-core with all schedulers?
21:52:00 <AnMaster> but hm, I notice no speed up with -j3 compared to -j2 on my thinkpad
21:52:10 <alise> "No separate /boot partition! No swap partition defined!" Arch, you complain so.
21:52:12 <pikhq> Use ck-sources instead of gentoo-sources
21:52:15 <AnMaster> -j2 compared to -j1 on my single core sempron 3300+ though...
21:52:22 <pikhq> Adds Con Kolivas's patchset to the Gentoo patchset.
21:52:29 <alise> pikhq: You might want to look at the Zen kernel too.
21:52:31 * pikhq shall do that after this torrent finishes
21:52:33 <alise> pikhq: It adds TuxOnIce, BFS, etc.
21:52:33 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined.
21:52:37 -!- Wamanuz2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:52:38 <alise> pikhq: Maybe just ck is fine though.
21:52:44 <pikhq> alise: Mmm, zen-sources may be nice.
21:52:48 <ais523> hmm, using an unusually high -j value would be nice if the make was X-bound for a huge bunch of different Xs in different components
21:52:53 <alise> Isn't it weird, a 1.3 GHz CPU with 4 GiBs of RAM at its disposal?
21:52:58 <ais523> so you could do IO-bound and network-bound and CPU-bound things all at once
21:53:01 <alise> A few years ago you'd be laughed at for suggesting it.
21:53:09 <alise> "Nonsense; we'll be using 4 GHz CPUs with that memory in a few years!"
21:53:18 <alise> "And if the CPU is low-powered, no reason to put expensive RAM in it!"
21:53:28 <ais523> alise: well, processor clock speeds stopped going up
21:53:37 <ais523> but the processors are still getting faster regardless, mostly by adding cores
21:53:38 <AnMaster> ais523, that too, but my scenario also makes sense, for a certain value of sense
21:53:39 <pikhq> Huh, BFS also makes the kernel smaller.
21:53:45 <alise> ais523: If not for public perception they'd be going /down/.
21:53:47 <alise> For power usage, etc.
21:53:57 <alise> pikhq: Because it removes CFS.
21:54:03 <ais523> alise: well, I really don't care about my clockspeed
21:54:03 <alise> pikhq: Which is not Brain Fuckedly simple.
21:54:20 <ais523> mostly because you can't get an electronic engineering degree without realising that lower is normally better, if you can speed the resulting speed up some other way
21:54:26 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
21:54:45 <AnMaster> alise, I still do quite a few heavy serial tasks, meaning I want a reasonably high clock speed
21:55:00 <alise> ha ha, AnMaster doesn't understand how CPU architectures work
21:55:03 <alise> everybody laugh at him
21:55:05 <ais523> alise: just do those heavy serial tasks simultaneously
21:55:24 <AnMaster> ais523, doesn't help if it is one task only really
21:55:34 <AnMaster> and sure, there are other ways to improve speed
21:55:36 <ais523> AnMaster: I'd be surprised if your /life/ was that serial
21:55:39 <AnMaster> better instruction set and so on
21:55:39 <alise> "My CPU is a 10 GHz Subleq! Fuck yeah, serial tasks."
21:55:46 <alise> ais523: Oh, trust me; AnMaster's life /is/ that serial.
21:55:57 <alise> What could be more important than stitching panoramas?!
21:56:09 <ais523> well, you can stitch two panoramas at once
21:56:12 <AnMaster> ais523, of course I do other stuff while waiting. I'm in no way suggesting that dual core or quad core is bad
21:56:19 <ais523> and even then, that task seems somewhat parallelisable
21:56:27 <alise> STITCHING TEN PANORAMAS AT ONCE YEAAAAAAAAAAAARGH
21:56:46 <alise> PHOTOGRAPHER HULK SMASH (IMAGES TOGETHER)
21:57:17 <AnMaster> just that 2x 2 GHz is better than 40 x 50 MHz
21:57:46 <alise> but not as good as 1,000,000,000,000 x 100 Hz!
21:57:54 <AnMaster> alise, stitching is quite parallelisable
21:58:02 <alise> (think Connection Machine)
21:58:36 <AnMaster> alise, for some tasks that might actually be better, not for my use case though
21:58:55 <AnMaster> same as 40 x 50 MHz could be better for some use cases as well
22:01:03 <alise> NETWORK_PERSIST=yes will speed up shutdown, right?
22:01:15 <alise> since it "skips network shutdown"
22:01:19 <pikhq> Huh. BFS manages to make latency lower with more CPUs. Nice.
22:01:20 <alise> any bad side-effects?
22:02:22 <pikhq> AnMaster: I guarantee that any even vaguely modern CPU executes things in parallel.
22:02:48 <AnMaster> pikhq, in this case I specifically meant multiple cores
22:03:04 <AnMaster> pikhq, rather than out-of-order, superscalar and so on
22:03:19 <alise> anyone wrt NETWORK_PERSIST? AnMaster? You know arch.
22:03:26 <pikhq> So, you are specifically referring to SMP. You probably still see benefits from it.
22:03:50 <AnMaster> alise, anyway I don't have arch handy to check atm. I'm on a hotel room with my thinkpad running ubuntu
22:04:18 <AnMaster> pikhq, oh definitely, which I also said
22:05:06 <AnMaster> pikhq, but I wasn't complaining about SMP, nor NUMA, rather I'm saying that:
22:05:17 <AnMaster> <ais523> alise: well, processor clock speeds stopped going up
22:05:17 <AnMaster> <ais523> but the processors are still getting faster regardless, mostly by adding cores
22:05:17 <AnMaster> <alise> ais523: If not for public perception they'd be going /down/.
22:05:26 <AnMaster> is not always such a good idea
22:05:33 <AnMaster> sure, for power usage it makes sense
22:05:46 <ais523> AnMaster: do you have any idea how crazy things are at high frequencies, in general?
22:06:04 <ais523> lower frequency = saner
22:06:10 <ais523> is the general rule of electronics
22:06:13 <AnMaster> ais523, well, to some degree. I don't have a degree in EE though
22:06:18 <ais523> (slight possible exception: DC and AC work very differently)
22:06:40 <pikhq> High clock frequencies are *hard*. And the Pentium 4 managed to nearly top out on practical CPU clock frequency.
22:07:37 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:08:04 <AnMaster> ais523, still, a) a lot of current software can't make easy use of multiple cores b) many tasks can't be parralellised very easy. Sure you can still run several of them at once, but sometimes you might only need one and you would prefer that getting done faster
22:08:09 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined.
22:08:50 <pikhq> AnMaster: I guarantee you run multiple programs at once.
22:08:51 <alise> in /etc/hosts does the preferred hostname come first or last?
22:09:32 <AnMaster> as an example that is actually on topic, consider esolang interpreters. Specifically something like "running a bf program". You can probably split part of the optimising of the program in multiple threads (though some will depend on the inferred state at the end of the previous section and so on), but running it? no?
22:09:41 <AnMaster> <pikhq> AnMaster: I guarantee you run multiple programs at once. <-- again I never claimed anything else
22:09:41 <Deewiant> Doesn't it have localhost and localhost.localdomain by default
22:09:51 <alise> Deewiant: plus "myhost"
22:10:05 <alise> I've removed "localhost.localdomain"
22:10:18 <Deewiant> I guess localhost would be preferred of those two, anyway
22:10:19 <ais523> AnMaster: you mean your BF interp doesn't autoparallelize loops?
22:10:23 <AnMaster> but I can say that my computer is currently mostly idle. I'm using irc, and htop. Then there is a number of stuff like udevd, various kernel processes, and what not running
22:10:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Apparently the FSF itself doesn't understand the GDFL. Nice.
22:10:48 <AnMaster> ais523, that could be done, but there are lots of programs that would gain nothing from it
22:10:49 <calamari> weird.. with their demo batch it works great, but with my own photos, hugin didn't work at all
22:11:01 <calamari> how did you get it to turn out so well?
22:11:02 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: *GFDL?
22:11:08 <ais523> I understand it relatively well
22:11:27 <alise> ais523: oh my god amazing idea
22:11:28 <ais523> partly because I used to be a Wikipedia admin, partly because I've used it myself for things that it's actually vaguely appropriate for
22:11:30 <alise> wrt parallelising loops
22:11:34 <alise> time to work on The Ultimate BF optimiser :D
22:11:55 <alise> ais523: you could do /all/ polynomialised loops like that, I think
22:12:19 <ais523> why would you parallelize a polynomialised loop?
22:12:19 <AnMaster> ais523, lets take [->++>+++<<] and for the moment ignore that this could be turned into a simple p[1]=p[0]*2; p[2]=p[0]*3;p[0]=0;
22:12:22 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:12:33 <ais523> you'd just polynomialise it instead
22:12:34 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, well, the FSF apparently told WP to ask their attorney.
22:12:43 <alise> ais523: I mean [ [...polynomial loop...] ]
22:12:50 <alise> which turns into [ some polynomial ]
22:12:57 <alise> i'm pretty sure you could run those in parallel
22:12:59 <AnMaster> ais523, all three written values would be in same cache line with high probability. Sure they might be split across two, but probably won't be
22:12:59 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: too be fair, the WP's attorney is Mike Godwin
22:13:12 <alise> ais523: wow, really? :D
22:13:22 <AnMaster> ais523, as I said, lets ignore that for the moment: <ais523> you'd just polynomialise it instead
22:13:24 <ais523> the FSF probably just decided he was the best person
22:13:39 <alise> ``I request that the court consider the fact that the vandal, WillyOnWheels, has several similarities to the Nazis and indeed Hitler.''
22:13:46 <AnMaster> "<ais523> you'd just polynomialise it instead" to "<Phantom_Hoover> Godwin as in the Law?" showed up in 1 second
22:14:18 <Sgeo> Godwin never stated that all comparisions to Nazis are accurate
22:14:22 <Sgeo> Why would he use one?
22:14:29 <alise> <Sgeo> hur wat is joek
22:14:38 <Phantom_Hoover> "Your honour, someone else didn't allow us to use our logo. They were the Nazis. The defence rests."
22:15:37 <alise> ``The defence rests ON THE JUSTICE OF THIS COURT, which is so unlike many courts which are not justful. Do you know what one of those courts was? That's right. The court of the NAZIS.''
22:16:15 <AnMaster> <Phantom_Hoover> So, will he be comparing the CIA to Nazis <-- ??
22:16:32 <ais523> wow, it must be awful to be Mike Godwin
22:16:33 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: But ``fag quotes'' work perfectly with the right console font!
22:16:38 <ais523> and have people do this sort of thing everywhere you go
22:16:43 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, CIA sues WP for using their logo thing. WP's attorney is Godwin.
22:16:49 <alise> ais523: ITYM ``awesome''
22:17:17 <ais523> Godwin's response was awesome
22:17:34 <alise> LILO: The best thing since sliced lilo!
22:17:40 <ais523> alise: you're turning into a stereotyped Gentoo user...
22:17:48 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, It's a bootloader. You use it for what, 3 seconds?
22:17:58 <AnMaster> I never seen a gentoo user claim that lilo was better than grub
22:18:02 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: THOSE ARE THE MOST IMPORTANT 3 SECONDS OF MY LIFE.
22:18:10 <alise> ais523: no, a stereotypical AliseLinux OS
22:18:17 <alise> aliseLinux OS, how redundant
22:18:29 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yeah, but it's still an option on Gentoo. :)
22:18:37 <alise> It's a Linux-based operating system that runs on your personal computer! We have our brand name!
22:18:40 <AnMaster> alise, PCLinuxOS for Personal Computers you mean?
22:19:00 <AnMaster> pikhq, I thought it was elilo that was
22:19:14 <pikhq> Nope, straight Lilo is still in Portage.
22:19:17 <alise> It's easy enough to uninstall GRUB, right?
22:19:34 <pikhq> And Gentoo does not install a bootloader by default.
22:19:43 <ais523> pikhq: how do you load it by default?
22:20:02 <AnMaster> ais523, while on livecd, you install one?
22:20:10 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:20:12 <alise> You ... can uninstall GRUB, right? :D
22:20:40 <AnMaster> ais523, since you install by extracting tarball, editing a bit in /etc, then chrooting and installing one for each package where multiple alternatives exist
22:20:44 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined.
22:20:50 <AnMaster> ais523, such as dhcp client, boot loader, and so on
22:20:54 * ais523 vaguely wonders how Ubuntu would react to "sudo aptitude remove grub" or whatever the package is
22:20:56 <AnMaster> oh and you build kernel there too
22:21:30 <alise> ais523: "AIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE"
22:21:30 <AnMaster> ais523, grub has priority: optional
22:21:52 <AnMaster> ais523, however, it seems linux-image depends on grub
22:21:54 <ais523> AnMaster: that implies it's not part of a default install
22:22:06 -!- alise has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
22:22:48 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't have any depends on grub... just recommends and suggests
22:23:08 <AnMaster> ais523, no, I'm not going to test anything. I don't have a boot cd handy
22:23:20 <ais523> well, depending on a particular bootloader strikes me as crazy
22:23:32 <AnMaster> ais523, oh but grub provides a virtual
22:23:34 <ais523> why should anything care about the specific bootloader used, apart from bootloader modules (if such things exist)?
22:23:39 <ais523> the virtual makes a lot more sense
22:23:40 <AnMaster> but aptitude claims nothing depends on the virtual
22:23:54 <ais523> well, why on earth would you write "this program depends on some bootloader"?
22:23:59 <ais523> also, is the virtual marked as essential?
22:24:03 <ais523> (and thus a dependency of /everything/)?
22:24:11 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:24:24 <AnMaster> I can't find if it is essential or not
22:24:51 <AnMaster> ais523, can virtuals even be essential?
22:25:03 <AnMaster> ais523, actually, it being essential would be silly
22:25:10 <AnMaster> ais523, think of stuff like chroot installs
22:25:17 <AnMaster> or xen (not sure how that boots)
22:25:33 <ais523> "depends on some bootloader" would only really make sense for init
22:25:37 <ais523> which isn't needed in a chroot either
22:25:59 <ais523> linux bootloaders recommend linux?
22:26:28 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway, freebsd jails (glorified and more secure chroots) run an init inside each jail
22:26:36 <ais523> normally it's a case of depending on something in general and something in particular
22:26:51 <ais523> like C-INTERCAL depending on "gcc or a C compiler"
22:27:05 <AnMaster> linux-image-2.6.32-24-generic recommends "grub-pc | grub | lilo (>= 19.1)"
22:27:07 <ais523> to suggest that gcc is the right compiler to install if there isn't one already, but any C compiler can be used if there is one
22:27:47 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway what about coreboot? you wouldn't use grub then. Or booting linux stored in a NOR flash
22:28:04 * ais523 vaguely wonders if there's a difference between NOR flash and NAND flash
22:28:08 <ais523> other than, you know, logic levels
22:28:22 <AnMaster> ais523, well, iirc you can't get execute-in-place for NAND
22:28:54 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
22:29:00 <AnMaster> ais523, quoting WP: "the interface provided for reading and writing the memory is different (NOR allows random-access for reading, NAND allows only page access)"
22:29:43 <ais523> hmm, so it's a case of the names describing a lot that's irrelevant to the actual names
22:29:55 <AnMaster> ais523, "NOR and NAND flash get their names from the structure of the interconnections between memory cells.[16] In NOR flash, cells are connected in parallel to the bitlines, allowing cells to be read and programmed individually. The parallel connection of cells resembles the parallel connection of transistors in a CMOS NOR gate. In NAND flash, cells are connected in series, resembling a NAND gate."
22:30:08 <AnMaster> "The series connections consume less space than parallel ones, reducing the cost of NAND flash. It does not, by itself, prevent NAND cells from being read and programmed individually."
22:30:16 <AnMaster> so it seems it isn't actual NOR and NAND
22:30:32 <ais523> oh, it's based on half of the usual implementations in terms of FETs
22:30:50 <ais523> or maybe even the entire thing if you're going open-drain
22:31:21 <AnMaster> ais523, while I understand every word of what you just said, I do not understand the whole thing...
22:31:42 <AnMaster> also, wouldn't open-drain consume quite a bit of power?
22:32:17 <ais523> although I think it does use higher power than the usual logic levels
22:33:23 <AnMaster> ais523, also WP: "In flash memory, each memory cell resembles a standard MOSFET, except the transistor has two gates instead of one."
22:42:26 <calamari> ugh hugin keeps shrinking my image
22:45:39 <fizzie> Huh? You can specify any pixel-width you like in the stitching window.
22:46:13 <fizzie> If it shrinks in the preview, it means the optimizer thinks the field-of-view is smaller than what it was.
22:47:41 -!- cal153 has quit.
22:47:43 <fizzie> There's that "calculate optimal size" button which makes it calc pixel size for the output so that its resolution approximately matches the source images.
22:48:14 <fizzie> And the scrollbars in the preview control the fov.
22:55:12 <zzo38> I want to invent a 'patamagician class in Dungeons&Dragons
22:59:27 <zzo38> Plain TeX is more better than LaTeX! I have used both, and I have concluded that Plain TeX is more better. In addition, cross-references can be done in Plain TeX without needing auxiliary files or two passes.
23:01:05 <Sgeo> I get the impression alise missed stuff in Spaced
23:01:22 <Sgeo> I'll check when I get home
23:02:37 <Sgeo> I think the attempted jump to Epsilion Eridani occured too soon
23:02:40 -!- alise has joined.
23:02:57 <alise> Xorg 1.8: "We made hotplugging and automatic hardware detection work. Like, actually really honest-to-godly work."
23:03:08 <alise> "Oh, and NO MORE FUCKING .FDI."
23:03:22 <alise> A+++++ would buy again
23:03:28 <zzo38> coppro: Yes, it is my idea, 'patamagician class. Some of its features are both spontaneous and prepared casting (but less slots than normal, even in total), a null metamagic feat, extra 'patamagic uses, and cantripology (when you run out of all slots (both prepared and spontaneous), of all levels, you can get one free 0-level slot costing 1 XP)
23:03:49 -!- AnMaster has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net).
23:07:01 <alise> So, anyone know of a Linux browser that isn't naff? ...Yeah, didn't think so.
23:07:16 <alise> See Phantom_Hoover, I said ``naff'' instead of ``sucky''.
23:07:20 <zzo38> What does "naff" means?
23:07:20 <pikhq> Seriously, web browsers suck universally.
23:07:22 <alise> pikhq: That too. s/ / /.
23:07:27 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes I agree
23:07:30 <alise> zzo38: British slang for "kind of rubbish".
23:07:40 <pikhq> Software, really, sucks universally.
23:07:44 <alise> zzo38: Something naff is... ineffectual, useless; like "crappy" but more... bleh-y.
23:07:57 <alise> pikhq: Be careful! Phantom_Hoover will DESTROY your negativity with a Care Bear stare.
23:08:27 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> I get the impression alise missed stuff in Spaced
23:08:27 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> I'll check when I get home
23:08:27 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> I think the attempted jump to Epsilion Eridani occured too soon
23:08:50 <alise> Sgeo: I corrected it
23:08:52 <alise> see my lastest link
23:08:57 <alise> I missed one chapter out
23:09:52 <alise> coppro: Spac\'ed (I dunno how to do the rightwards-pointing accent in the Linux console...) is the second major story-arc of the Ed stories.
23:10:01 <alise> http://qntm.org/ed, or see the logs for my nicely-typeset PDF.
23:10:44 <alise> pikhq: Hmm... how is Konqueror these days?
23:11:03 <alise> If you disable some toolbar icons it's... usable.
23:11:48 <alise> I would also like to note that pekwm is a pretty nice window manager.
23:13:40 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:21:03 <alise> Hey, pikhq. If GTK et al are rendering UI elements and text in bitmap fonts, what does that mean?
23:21:08 <alise> I think I have non-bitmap fonts installed.
23:21:53 <alise> Actually /no I don't/.
23:22:05 <alise> Arch is really a bit anal with the "DO NOT INCLUDE ANYTHING IN PACKAGES! ANYTHING!!!!" thing.
23:22:06 <oerjan> AAAAAAAAAAA http://www.firstpersontetris.com/
23:22:20 <alise> oerjan: Just from the URL: <3<3<3
23:22:52 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:23:02 * alise "sacrifices the present at the altar of the future" by installing the bitstream fonts
23:24:34 <alise> pikhq: I've installed Linux Libertine. I guess I have to tell something that's my default font now, huh?
23:24:59 <Sgeo> And AFK soon forreal
23:25:23 -!- SimonRC has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
23:25:38 <oerjan> Sgeo: interestingly, that fact never crossed my mind. but then i was seriously dizzy most of the time.
23:26:08 <Sgeo> I use FlashBlock, so I immediately notice
23:26:58 <alise> pikhq: Linux Biolinium O. Yeeeees <3
23:27:40 -!- Wamanuz has joined.
23:29:49 <pikhq> alise: Sadly, Linux Biolinium is not finished.
23:31:37 <alise> pikhq: But it IS hot.
23:31:46 <alise> Furthermore, OMG GTK+ THEMES STOP SUCKING.
23:32:39 -!- alise has quit (Quit: leaving).
23:32:39 <pikhq> alise: The hinting sucks though.
23:35:23 <oerjan> the _final_ operating system
23:37:24 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
23:40:24 -!- SimonRC has joined.
23:40:31 <fizzie> Linux Bio-linoleum; the environmentally conscious, yet cheap and durable operating system.
23:42:19 <Sgeo> Oh, it's a font?
23:42:41 <Sgeo> Any reason for it being called _Linux_ Biolinum in particular?
23:42:59 <Sgeo> And why is it called Grotesque
23:43:46 <Phantom_Hoover> alise gave me a list of the proper terms for points. They're fantastic.
23:43:51 <oerjan> grotesque should be something with tentacles perfect for printing lovecraft stories
23:44:15 <Sgeo> "A sans serif style with moderate stroke contrast and modern proportions particular to the U.K. Usually features a two-story lowercase g, closed strokes (usually curving in slightly) on C and S, and a sloped, non-cursive italic. Classic example: Bureau Grot."
23:45:42 <Sgeo> What typeface do the examples in http://typedia.com/learn/only/anatomy-of-a-typeface/ use?
23:47:22 <Sgeo> How is the tail in R decorative
23:47:46 <Sgeo> Ooh, the tail of that R was nice and curved in the input box. Too bad the .. chat thingy uses a different font
23:49:24 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.8/20100722155716]).
23:51:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Particularly, monospace fonts that handle funny characters elegantly.
23:53:27 <Sgeo> I still have no idea what a Foundry is
23:53:43 <Sgeo> Except that some fonts are either missing them or missing information on them on Typedia
23:57:03 <pikhq> A type foundry creates fonts.
23:57:51 <Phantom_Hoover> To install fonts on Ubuntu I simply copy them into ~/.fonts, right?
00:02:50 -!- alise has joined.
00:02:58 <alise> GTK doesn't respect fontconfig, seemingly.
00:03:04 <alise> Or, it does, just not local.conf. Or, ... what???
00:03:23 <alise> It wants Xft configuration instead, seemingly.
00:04:14 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: A few...
00:04:55 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
00:05:20 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: All-time favourite would be OS X's Monaco. DejaVu Sans Mono is pretty good, you know, in the acceptable kind of way.
00:05:31 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:05:42 <alise> Luxi Mono is quite nice if you'd like a serifed monospace font.
00:05:59 <alise> Consolas is wonderful, but less-so outside of Windows.
00:06:11 <pikhq> Inconsolata's nice.
00:06:17 <alise> Yes, but it's so boring.
00:06:30 <pikhq> Which is not a bad thing.
00:06:38 <alise> Yeah, but, really, it's so boring.
00:06:52 <Sgeo> I hate this family
00:07:20 <pikhq> It's highly readable. Which is pretty much the only thing I care about in a monospace font.
00:07:24 <alise> Sgeo has such a great family life
00:07:37 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Droid Sans Mono is good but I can't distinguish it from DejaVu Sans Mono.
00:07:43 <alise> Incidentally, when do we get DejaVu Serif Mono?
00:08:00 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Ah. Droid is fatter and less tall than DejaVu. An improvement.
00:08:03 <Sgeo> Well, there is no physical abuse, so that's at least something to be happy about
00:08:35 <pikhq> alise: Except that Droid Sans Mono also has CJK support.
00:08:53 <alise> Sgeo: Pretty baseline conditions there. :/
00:09:18 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
00:17:29 <zzo38> There is the 'patamagician class: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/options/Patamagician.c (Is it good?)
00:18:14 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: No. It just embiggens people's reference-peen.
00:19:53 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Do *you* want to use the word "cromulent" use more?
00:20:44 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/cyk1s/mathematicians_of_reddit_question_about_prime/c0w810t
00:20:51 <Sgeo> I feel dumber for having read that
00:21:06 <zzo38> Do you like a 'patamagician class in D&D game?
00:21:06 <Sgeo> Actually, I haven't obviously
00:21:23 <Sgeo> Now that I've read that, it's obviously a jumble of buzzwords
00:21:39 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Quit: Quit).
00:22:00 <zzo38> That comment in Reddit is not make sensable!
00:22:48 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
00:23:42 <zzo38> Quantum entanglement is unrelated.
00:24:38 <zzo38> Quadrescence: You can modify the topic message without +o in this channel
00:25:50 <alise> Quadrescence: why?
00:26:13 <Quadrescence> alise: i want to paste an age old IRC exploit to kick those who have an old client but I don't want to be perceived as malicious
00:26:25 -!- augur has joined.
00:26:26 <alise> Quadrescence: just do it. this channel is a de facto anarchy
00:26:33 <alise> i don't know why you want to do it
00:26:34 <zzo38> Quadrescence: Then post it to external URL and post the URL here.
00:26:46 <alise> actual ops are lament, fizzie, oerjan
00:26:50 <alise> oerjan never, ever uses ops
00:26:52 <augur> alise: whereas #ranarchism is a de jure anarchy!
00:27:02 <Quadrescence> okay well lament is probably okay with me doing it
00:27:03 <alise> fizzie kicks obvious trolls after years of debate and then feels bad about it
00:27:05 -!- Warrigal has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:27:12 <alise> lament only uses his op powers to further chaos and evil
00:27:15 <augur> you fix your own client, Quadrescence
00:27:22 -!- Warrigal has joined.
00:27:34 <zzo38> Quadrescence: Why did you send DCC SEND "fixyourclient" to the channel
00:27:35 <alise> augur: RAN archism?
00:27:56 <Sgeo> Wait, Warrigal's using an old client?
00:28:10 <alise> Let's try and see.
00:28:14 <zzo38> (In my computer, any IRC channels hosted there other than &SERVER do not even support +o (or any other modes), because of how I configured it)
00:28:34 -!- Warrigal has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:28:43 <alise> i will now have endless fun with this
00:28:48 <Quadrescence> it is so funny when someone does it in #ubuntu
00:28:50 <zzo38> O, so that is how you do it
00:29:05 <zzo38> My client does nothing other than display the DCC SEND
00:29:19 <Sgeo> Warrigal's still insine
00:29:21 <alise> Quadrescence: can i do that without connecting raw?
00:29:29 <augur> Quadrescence: this is annoying. stop it.
00:29:40 <alise> we can just specifically target warrigal now
00:29:50 <alise> Quadrescence: augur is probably set to go DING DING DING every time you dcc
00:29:55 <alise> also augur thinks he's an op
00:30:12 <augur> no, it doesnt ping, it just pops up a window showing the DCC requests
00:30:50 <zzo38> My client simply displays the DCC SEND in red, inline together with all the other messages (which are normally blue).
00:31:06 <alise> Quadrescence: what command, without manually connecting?
00:31:11 <alise> also, how long will i be banned for?
00:31:21 <Quadrescence> does it matter? aren't you quitting uboob anyway?
00:31:22 <zzo38> alise: Probably it depends what client you are using?
00:31:27 <alise> quitting, i quit it all the time
00:31:30 <alise> then i end up using it again
00:31:47 <Quadrescence> zzo38: All I do is paste it, including the NULL or whatever at the start (probably not a NULL but whatever)
00:31:55 <Sgeo> alise, I'll slap you if you intefere with anyone who needs to get help
00:32:09 <zzo38> Hay, why is your name "alise!~ehird"
00:32:13 <Sgeo> But that doesn't mean I won't enjoy seeing it happen
00:32:18 <alise> Oh my god I just flipped my screen upside down
00:32:22 -!- Warrigal has joined.
00:32:30 <Warrigal> Huh, I didn't know this version of irssi was an old client.
00:32:42 <Warrigal> No. What version of irssi do I have?
00:32:54 <Sgeo> One vulnerable to some exploid
00:32:57 <zzo38> Just disable receiving DCC SEND in your client?
00:33:51 <Warrigal> Irssi tells me it's version 0.8.15, which appears to be the newest version.
00:34:07 <zzo38> I know how to send that kind of DCC SEND in my client, simply type <space> <Control+A> DCC SEND "fixyourclient" 0 0 0 <Control+A> <enter>
00:34:20 <zzo38> But most clients do not do it this way.
00:34:44 <alise> So, sloppy focus, howsabout it.
00:35:04 <Sgeo> What client is zzo38 using?
00:35:39 <zzo38> Sgeo: Why don't you check what client? Using CTRL+A VERSION command to check?
00:35:49 <zzo38> Quadrescence: What extra character?
00:36:39 <Quadrescence> zzo38: It's an invisible/unicode character. If you have proper fonts it'll show up as a box or a square with numbers
00:37:18 <alise> Quadrescence: you misunderstand.
00:37:29 <alise> Quadrescence: in zzo38's client, <Ctrl+A> literally inserts ^A.
00:37:34 <alise> i.e., the CTCP character.
00:37:40 <alise> this is because zzo38 wrote his own client in php and it is basically raw.
00:38:07 <alise> whaat xsetroot sucks
00:38:33 <Sgeo> "Brits, we're talking about mathematicians in this thread. Do you know what a mathematician is? That's not a physicist (Penrose), a computer geek (Lovelace, Babbage, Turing), or a political hack (Russell)."
00:38:56 <alise> Did he just call Bertrand a political hack?
00:39:07 <Sgeo> http://conservapedia.com/Talk:Essay:Best_New_Conservative_Words#Decrypt
00:39:12 <zzo38> (And the <space> is simply a shortcut to send a message to the current channel, if a space is typed at the beginning of the current line, it will automatically type in "PRIVMSG #esoteric :" on the command line, which can be backspaced as normal, and so on)
00:39:18 <alise> Ah, Conservapedia.
00:40:53 <zzo38> My client also does syntax highlighting of everything sent/received
00:41:16 <zzo38> coppro: IRC syntax
00:41:56 <augur> Sgeo: lmfao what is this
00:42:57 <coppro> the bastion for all idiots in the world
00:43:06 <coppro> half of them are trolls, half of them are serious, and you cannot tell the difference
00:45:26 <alise> PEKWM: HAHAHA I AM TABBING WINDOWS BY DRAGGING THEM
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00:47:38 <oerjan> <alise> oerjan never, ever uses ops <-- hey, i _did_ ban fax
00:47:55 <alise> ah i didn't realise that was you
00:47:59 <oerjan> <Sgeo> I feel dumber for having read that <-- that comment was nonsense
00:48:08 <Sgeo> oerjan, I eventually realized
00:48:34 <Sgeo> Wait, fax was banned?
00:48:47 <alise> for being completely insane
00:49:15 <alise> (to the point of spamming the channel with "FUCK YOU" for dozens of lines just because... uh, I think Phantom_Hoover took more than a few minutes to reply to s/h(it)'s message)
00:50:12 * Sgeo remembers in English class in 7th grade, "I you he/she/it" and someone said "I you he shit"
00:50:26 <alise> s/h(it) is oerjan's invention
00:51:16 <alise> Ooh, am I still on it?
00:51:33 <augur> yes, fax is fucking nuts
00:52:21 <augur> apparently because i told you she's a she
00:52:25 <alise> She? Are you implying that she's TRANSGENDER? She'll flip out about that, you know!
00:52:35 <alise> "It" is the only safe option here, really.
00:52:51 <Sgeo> Warrigal, alise is wondering if he's still on your ignore list
00:53:43 <alise> Warrigal, Sgeo is letting you know that alise is wondering if he's still on your ignore list
00:54:08 <Warrigal> Let me know if alise asks me anything else.
00:54:44 <Sgeo> Warrigal, alise is informing you that Sgeo is letting you know that alise is wondering if he's still on your ignore list.
00:55:22 <alise> Warrigal: I have this sneaking suspicion that I am on that list.
00:56:08 <Warrigal> You know, if alise were on my /ignore list, I might say that he's not, just to make him feel better.
00:56:11 <Sgeo> Wait, Warrigal, did you say that alise isn't on that list, or that alise isn't wondering
00:56:13 <zzo38> Does ignore lists also cause auto-reply things to be ignored?
00:56:24 <Warrigal> I said that alise isn't on that list.
00:56:30 <zzo38> (Such as CTRL+A VERSION and CTRL+A TIME and so on)
00:56:43 <alise> I'm pretty sure I am on Warrigal's ignore list.
00:56:53 <alise> Warrigal: You do know that I can read that, right :D
00:57:01 <Sgeo> From now on, I will be exclusively speaking through alise
00:57:07 <oerjan> <alise> s/h(it) is oerjan's invention <-- it's supposed to be (s)h/it
00:57:14 <alise> oerjan: well you're supposed to be HUH.
00:58:33 <zzo38> I do not agree with everything in the conservative words list, but I partially agree with a few of the comments there, but not fully. But there may be some things incorrect listed there, even if they say it is correct
00:58:40 <Warrigal> I don't think I could pull that off, though. If I really could see what alise was saying, it would probably be pretty obvious.
00:59:03 <Warrigal> Er, wait, I got confused there.
00:59:17 <Warrigal> I meant to say, if I really *couldn't* see what alise was saying, it would probably be pretty obvious.
00:59:20 <Sgeo> You could always logread to see what alise is saying
00:59:23 <Warrigal> Though if I could, that would also be pretty obvious.
00:59:27 <pikhq> Good *God*. Palm used Palm OS up until *2009*.
00:59:48 <Warrigal> So yeah. alise, it should be obvious whether you're on my ignore list or not.
00:59:52 <alise> Sgeo: I think he's enjoying being passive-aggressive more.
01:00:16 <alise> Oh, such a clever ruse.
01:00:25 <alise> This I did not anticipate.
01:00:40 <alise> My monocle poppeth out.
01:00:43 <oerjan> alise: also i recall the particular thing causing fax to break completely was someone telling em "You fail at life". in a discussion about the _game_ of life.
01:01:07 <alise> oerjan: he was always broken, just most of the shards hit other places first
01:01:17 <pikhq> What the hell happened to fax anyways?
01:01:27 <oerjan> pikhq: hasn't seen em since
01:01:31 * Sgeo remembers yelling at fax when fax pretended to be clueless with Haskell
01:01:33 <alise> pikhq: he "changed gender" (DON'T SAY THAT HE'LL KILL YOU) and went off his rocker
01:01:38 <alise> when he was male he was ... insane, but, you know
01:01:40 <Sgeo> What happened to MissPiggy?
01:01:53 <pikhq> oerjan: No, I mean, I am literally clueless as to anything odd about fax at all.
01:02:06 <pikhq> Log links or something?
01:02:06 <alise> pikhq: Um. Basically he started calling everyone cunts if you just ignored him for a second
01:02:16 <alise> or did something which made him think you were stupid (even just giving a tiny piece of advice he disliked)
01:02:21 <pikhq> Somehow I missed all this.
01:02:23 <alise> he regularly spammed the channel if he was being ignored or whatever
01:02:27 <alise> held tons of grudges against people
01:02:31 <alise> then would whine at them for ignoring him
01:02:34 <pikhq> And he's not been in my ignore list.
01:02:51 <alise> pikhq: grep (MissPiggy|soupdragon|fax).* in recent logs
01:02:54 <alise> enjoy the insanity
01:03:04 <alise> Gah why do gtk themes suck.
01:03:27 <oerjan> not _that_ recent, from this year though
01:03:55 <alise> I wish Raleigh wasn't so damn ugly.
01:04:31 <alise> Is there a way to make Raleigh less 3D?
01:04:36 <pikhq> There should be searchable logs for #esoteric.
01:04:52 <alise> pikhq: There's Gregor's secret mirror.
01:04:57 <alise> (Secret because it takes ages to check out.)
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01:05:40 <Sgeo> There are... world sauna championships?
01:06:19 <pikhq> alise: I managed to miss this at a time I literally was doing nothing. Wow.
01:07:18 <Warrigal> Heh heh, fax said string theory is wrong because it predicts more than 3 dimensions.
01:07:28 <alise> He said it was just "plain wrong" because KLEIN BOTTLES.
01:07:36 <alise> Furthermore, he claimed he had a proof for the existence of god
01:07:40 <alise> "Watch a plant grow".
01:07:45 <alise> I am not exaggerating, I swear on my life.
01:07:56 <alise> Find that log and read it and you will lose all religious faith because /God would not allow anyone to be so stupid/.
01:08:00 <Gregor> Adorable in a pathetic, sad kind of way.
01:08:19 <alise> Gregor: we kept telling him that it wasn't an argument and he basically started yelling "PLANTS!!!!!"
01:08:31 * Gregor greps his secret logs :P
01:08:35 <alise> then he just went psycho
01:08:42 * Sgeo wants searchable online logs
01:08:49 <Sgeo> What if he's schizophrenic?
01:08:52 <oerjan> <Sgeo> There are... world sauna championships? <-- so i seem to recall
01:08:55 <alise> also if you ever objected to any sort of religiouslyness or god thing like someone mentioning god gratuitously in a "mathematical" "paper" (ultrafinitism HEM HEM)
01:09:00 <alise> he'd go "oh you're one of THOSE atheists"
01:09:03 <alise> THOSE atheists = atheists
01:09:10 <alise> Sgeo: He probably is.
01:09:16 <alise> Sgeo: In fact, let's just go out and say he is.
01:09:31 <alise> -chime This option indicates that the clock should chime once on the
01:09:31 <alise> half hour and twice on the hour.
01:09:38 <Sgeo> We should feel sympathy for him if he is. Try to get him to seek treatment or something
01:09:52 <alise> No, we really shouldn't. Besides he talked about seeing psychologists and shit
01:09:57 <alise> apparently they "just let him go"
01:10:05 <alise> whatever, even without schizophrenia he'd be an asshole
01:10:12 <Warrigal> I don't generally object to stuff like gratuitous God mentioning.
01:10:25 <Sgeo> I used to object back in 11th-12th grade
01:10:37 <alise> Warrigal: but this was a "paper" which started off like "I don't dislike infinity, I love it, I love it, I love God and his Glory and what he has Given us and and ..."
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01:10:45 <Sgeo> Someone fixes something on the teacher's computer, teacher goes "Thank God!", I say that it wasn't god...
01:10:46 <pikhq> Gregor: Hand me a day if you find it.
01:10:48 <alise> "...but mathematics is broken because exponentiation isn't total" (this was the actual argument)
01:10:55 <alise> (it argued that "exponentiation is total" was an unfounded belief)
01:11:04 <alise> so yeah I was like "this is just some religious crap and then some bullshit"
01:11:06 * pikhq is manually grepping logs for relevant conversations
01:11:07 <Gregor> pikhq: Oh, you mean a day with fax crazitude.
01:11:14 <Warrigal> alise: yeah, that's a bit overly gratuitous.
01:11:16 <Gregor> pikhq: I just found where 'e was banned.
01:11:19 <alise> "GIVE ME THAT DAY!"
01:12:01 <alise> This Two Minutes Hate is going great, public opinion of Eurasia^Wfax has never been so low.
01:12:24 <Warrigal> Good thing everyone hates fax now. I can't imagine what we'd do if we didn't all hate him.
01:12:28 <oerjan> we have _always_ been at war with fax
01:12:32 * Sgeo still wants a link
01:12:48 * oerjan wonders what'll happen if he reads that
01:12:51 <alise> Sgeo: DO YOU KNOW WHO ELSE WANTED A LINK?
01:13:06 <Sgeo> And isn't it Emmanuel Goldstein that was hated in the 2min of hate?
01:13:06 <alise> oerjan: He will climb into our windows at night and brutally rape-murder us.*
01:13:09 <alise> *I'm not sure I'm joking.
01:13:28 <Sgeo> I mean, yeah, we're at war with Eurasia^HEastasia^HEurasia
01:13:47 <Warrigal> We're at war with EurasiEastasiEurasia? >.>
01:13:56 <alise> It's a foreign name.
01:14:01 <alise> Foreign like NAZISM.
01:14:23 <oerjan> Warrigal: there was a really _messy_ unification. philologically, at least.
01:14:59 <alise> And phonologically...
01:16:01 <zzo38> If I write Linux distribution I put my own "decoration" package, which is very simple and has only three things: analog clock (instead of xclock), xeye (instead of xeyes), and screen saver (with several modes, such as variations of munching squares display hack, analog clock, digital clock, arbritrary text, blank screen, status screen)
01:16:21 <alise> No love for xscreensaver?
01:16:42 <alise> No love for xscreensaver?
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01:20:36 * pikhq starts seeing the crazy
01:20:50 <pikhq> 12:26:19 <fax> alise why the fuck would you steal mathematica
01:21:03 <zzo38> Other screen saver modes can include: dim screen, cellular automata, distribution logo, and energy saver.
01:21:10 <zzo38> That should be enough screen saver modes
01:22:07 <alise> pikhq: actually he then qualified it by saying it was because mathematica is shit xD
01:22:14 <alise> but he hated wolfram haters
01:22:23 <alise> unity/gtk-kde4 0.9.4-1
01:22:23 <alise> community/gtk-rezlooks-engine 0.6-9
01:22:23 <alise> Clean looking gtk theme engine based on the cairo-enabled CVS clearlooks engine code.
01:22:26 <alise> [ehird@dinky ~]$ gtk-chtheme
01:22:28 <alise> (gtk-chtheme:2033): GLib-GObject-CRITICAL **: g_object_unref: assertion `G_IS_OBJECT (object)' failed
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01:22:49 <alise> Here's fax's reddit page: http://www.reddit.com/user/cwcc
01:23:04 <zzo38> The text in arbitrary text mode and status display mode could be adjusted by manipulating files in the process's /9p/ directory
01:23:45 <alise> fax hated wikipedia btw
01:23:58 <oerjan> alise: it would seem fax has disappeared from reddit too, then? or maybe he was banned.
01:24:12 <zzo38> (It is a idea of my Linux distribution (ArcaneLinux) that every process will have a /proc/[ID]/9p/ directory which is a file system by the program, if the program does not handle it, any accesses to the /9p/ directory will return a "device is busy" message or "no disk in drive" message)
01:24:17 <alise> maybe he killed himself. or moved on to another personality
01:25:25 <oerjan> he is presently on freenode as soupdragon
01:26:56 <alise> Anyone know an IM client that isn't Pidgin?
01:27:49 <zzo38> alise: I don't know, I wanted to include some different IM protocol features into PHIRC, so if anyone wants to write the protocol plugins you can do so
01:28:11 <zzo38> What is your opinion of the ArcaneLinux process /9p/ directory idea?
01:28:19 <alise> zzo38: It's an idea.
01:29:49 <pikhq> alise: He really sucks at English.
01:30:00 <alise> pikhq: yeah that is a common trait of insane cranks.
01:32:36 <Sgeo> "do u no c++" "I wish I didn't "But I could write in C++ if I had a gun up to my head"
01:32:39 <zzo38> The program "xeye" just can set -b (background color) -f (foreground color) -t (thickness) -a (always on top) -d (do not turn off borders from window manager), and then waits for coordinates from stdin, each line is X-coordinate, Y-coordinate, radius, and then it draws that eye on the screen, at EOF it continues running until interrupted, but you can still make adjustments in the /9p/ directory
01:32:47 <alise> Ahh, alt-right drag is so nice to resize windows.
01:32:57 <zzo38> And the program "xusb" can simply list connected USB devices.
01:33:13 <alise> It should be lsub.
01:33:17 <alise> X is the graphical system.
01:33:36 * oerjan finds out why Sgeo was mentioning the sauna championship
01:33:37 <zzo38> alise: It would be the name, "xusb" is a program which lists USB devices in a window and updates it automatically.
01:33:43 <alise> Also, for programs like that, waiting from stdin is Bad.
01:33:50 <alise> They should be command-line arguments in accordance with Unix design principles.
01:34:59 <Sgeo> alise, did Squeak blocks not used to be lambdas, but now they are?
01:35:02 <zzo38> alise: ArcaneLinux design principles are different though, which is that everything can be piped, and so on, and everything else. If you have a list of eyes already and don't want to add more afterward, just redirect the input from a file instead?
01:35:13 <alise> Sgeo: They were always lambdas, as far as I know.
01:35:27 <Sgeo> alise, but they weren't always closures
01:35:33 <Sgeo> So by your definition...
01:35:42 <alise> Sgeo: They weren't?
01:35:54 <Sgeo> Want to ask in #squeak?
01:36:24 <alise> No, I'll trust you.
01:37:05 <pikhq> alise: It is much quiter in #esoteric when you're not around.
01:37:14 <zzo38> (The other design principles of ArcaneLinux is don't add unnecessary icons and decorations and stuff to programs (except for decoration programs), and don't use GNU long options)
01:37:30 <alise> pikhq: I'll choose to take that as a compliment. :P
01:37:52 <alise> For a while, I was the centre of the #haskell social graph thing they had auto-generated; basically it looked at who responded to who, and who talked most, etc.
01:38:05 <alise> I was the biggest, most-connected and centre of the graph, despite not talking about actual Haskell much at all.
01:38:32 <pikhq> 16:30:32 * fax was getting along fine until people started being uppity /ignore users
01:38:53 <pikhq> alise: You are a man who makes conversation happen, I guess. :P
01:39:02 <alise> Mostly useless conversation.
01:41:36 <alise> How-to-Do Girls - Bikini Calculus! http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0006U6KIK
01:42:42 <Sgeo> Chain rule is last on that list, but chain rule's rather easy, so...
01:42:51 <alise> Yeah, but there's no bikinis.
01:43:08 <alise> In more advanced texts.
01:44:01 <Sgeo> No bikinis == good
01:45:40 <alise> You just don't appreciate Bikini Calculus.
01:46:06 <oerjan> maybe they've done bikini quantum mechanics too. with bras and kets.
01:46:24 <Sgeo> alise, I'd appreciate it more without the bikinis
01:47:26 <zzo38> How can we trick the beholder to cast the "hold monster" ray on themself, so that we can use the "modify memory" spell then, and somehow to convince everyone that the gods is dead?
01:48:43 <alise> No-Bikini Calculus just doesn't have the same ring to it.
01:49:06 <oerjan> alise: depends how you interpret it.
01:49:10 <zzo38> Do you have any opinion of the answer of my question?
01:49:23 <alise> oerjan: Gee, you don't say.
01:50:10 <oerjan> Bikini Algebra has a ring to it though.
01:51:24 <alise> I refuse to laugh or groan.
01:51:29 <zzo38> oerjan: Please wait forever. Your call is important to us. Push "0" for operator and then please wait even more forever, for listening to the operator, please.
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01:51:53 <pikhq> Why is reading old channel logs for here amusing?
01:52:09 <zzo38> pikhq: Because it has a lot of writing in it.
01:52:15 <alise> pikhq: Because we are awesome.
01:52:22 <alise> zzo38: Things aren't amusing just because they have a lot of writing...
01:53:04 <zzo38> alise: Yes, but it is, if it is amusing writing...
01:54:42 <zzo38> If you print out a Whitespace or Unispace program, that does not have any comments, or header/footer, or web, that means that you can reuse the paper because it is still blank
01:56:35 * oerjan realizes that the trick is in the eye of the beholder
01:57:24 <zzo38> oerjan: You are right, that is part of it. But it still doesn't help that is only a little bit idea
01:58:11 <zzo38> (We have 2 monster characters in our party, that probably would help a bit?)
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02:11:51 <alise> Okay, why are there no simple GTK+ themes?
02:22:03 <pikhq> 07:03:15 <alise> Also I'd say that Japan imports less culture from other countries.
02:22:38 <pikhq> Not true. A good 70% (number pulled out of rectum) of Japanese culture is imported. It's just morphed a hell of a lot after importation.
02:25:48 <alise> I think OpenDNS is broken.
02:30:02 <pikhq> 15:01:37 <oklopol> sometimes i like to pretend pikhq never googles anything but actually just happens to know everything
02:32:34 <oerjan> well if you ever googled you'd obviously have found that quote earlier
02:33:01 <alise> guh, gnome-look is down for me
02:34:02 <alise> Could someone follow this through to the download link and mirror it somewhere? http://gnome-look.org/content/download.php?content=72622&id=1&tan=70966423&PHPSESSID=6f31a60dfebaf1952b9c0467602dbe38
02:34:06 <alise> OpenDNS is being retarded.
02:36:12 <Sgeo> Switch to Google DNS?
02:41:32 <alise> Can someone do that mirroring? Anyone? :P
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03:35:52 <Mathnerd314> alise: does http://gnome-look.org/CONTENT/content-files/72622-Awakened.tar.gz work?
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03:43:23 <alise> pikhq: Linux Libertine is not so good when hinted.
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04:04:32 <alise> Whyyy does freetype fail so much
04:05:57 <Sgeo> Because nothing free can be good
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04:06:36 <alise> you troll, but oh, how true it seems
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04:08:13 <alise> If you disable all hinting, it just looks like RISC OS.
04:11:52 <alise> brb testing something
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04:14:48 <alise> Okay, you know how PC speaker beeps are redirected to the speakers nowadays?
04:14:53 <alise> Yeah, how do I disable that and just let the beep DIE?
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04:34:35 <zzo38> For the process /9p/ directory, if the program does not handle it, I read the opengroup list of errors I try to figure out which error it should be: ENODEV ENOSYS ENXIO
04:38:29 <zzo38> If you try to create a file there that the program it belongs to does not support (or modify an existing file in a non-supported way), should it return one of these errors? ENOSPC ENOSYS EROFS EACCES
04:39:24 <zzo38> But if the filesystem is only temporarily disabled due to the program doing something that should not be interrupted by calls to this file system, it could use EBUSY
04:40:09 <zzo38> (Or if the process is stopped)
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04:41:06 <zzo38> For try to create a file there that the program it belongs to does not support, there is one more error code I forgot: EPERM
04:41:11 <zzo38> alise: Testing is OK.
04:41:14 <alise> Well, that hasn't worked.
04:41:24 <zzo38> alise: What did you testing?
04:41:32 <pikhq> alise: Text rendering sucks everywhere outside of TeX. Just accept it or kill yourself.
04:41:41 <alise> pikhq: It's marginally acceptable on OS X...
04:41:44 <alise> (With an Apple display.)
04:42:03 <pikhq> Ah, yes. Apple was obsessed with getting it right so it doesn't suck much there.
04:42:13 <pikhq> Sadly, we can't just go with Display TeX.
04:42:33 <pikhq> ... Why not indeed.
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04:43:18 <alise> Okay; subpixel rendering is OUT.
04:43:19 <zzo38> For displaying text on screen that isn't a print preview, just simple bitmap fonts will do, I think
04:43:48 <alise> pikhq: I'm actually halfway to just going with http://sharpfonts.co.cc/; at least it'd just be ugly, rather than *actively hurting* my eyes.
04:43:54 <zzo38> Monospace will do for on screen text in many cases
04:44:35 <alise> pikhq: Unfortunately, slight-hinted greyscale text is ... well, blurry.
04:45:05 <alise> On a more upbeat tone, I managed to make a GTK+ theme that sucks less than the other ones.
04:45:13 <alise> I took Mist and changed the colours. It's now GreyMist. Guess what colours it uses.
04:45:49 <alise> You deduced the answer successfully!
04:47:22 * alise installs ROX Filer.
04:47:46 <alise> The /only/ file manager that doesn't suck. Probably.
04:50:43 <pikhq> alise: I've got to say, the DejaVu fonts are nice on screen with the actual TTF hinting running.
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04:51:36 <alise> There. I'm running the only thing I can stand: wispy, badly-defined, fully-hinted, greyscale text.
04:52:08 <pikhq> What distro you on?
04:54:22 <alise> And yes, I've tried the patched freetypes.
04:54:45 <alise> pikhq: Being able to close a window in one click on the title bar: Dangerous, or hideously dangerous?
04:54:56 <pikhq> Moderately dangerous.
04:55:07 <alise> I'll leave it at Win+Middleclick, then.
04:55:56 <alise> pikhq: It's just that I keep hitting Middleclick expecting it to close!
04:55:56 * Sgeo closes alise by accident
04:56:34 <Sgeo> Disconnecting soon
04:57:47 <alise> pikhq: Wow, click-to-focus seems so... static after sloppy focus.
04:58:54 <Sgeo> Use Smalltalk as your OS!
04:58:57 <Sgeo> </nonsensical>
04:59:22 <alise> pikhq: Can I just recommend pekwm+ROX-Filer+Midori as a nice desktop?
04:59:38 <alise> With my "bland" pekwm theme and "GreyMist" GTK+ theme, of course. >_>
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05:06:08 <pikhq> What are you using for IRC and/or IM?
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05:06:23 <alise> X-Chat for IRC, Pidgin for IM. Yeah, they suck, but so does everything else. Easy enough to use irssi or whatever.
05:08:04 <alise> IM is more one-to-one.
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05:14:10 <zzo38> alise: You can do one-to-one with IRC as well
05:17:21 <coppro> what's a good assembly language?
05:17:35 <alise> coppro: you mean, architecture?
05:17:59 <alise> MIPS is simpler i think
05:18:06 <alise> after all, Gregor isn't doing jsARM
05:18:27 <Gregor> MIPSv1 is simpler than any ARM. I can't speak to later models.
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05:22:12 <alise> Yay, I have tray icons and a clock now.
05:22:29 <zzo38> If I write file manager for my Linux distribution, I won't use ROX-Filer or any other. But instead, have it simply display a list of files (no icons or menus are visible), which can be typed by keyboard or selected by mouse, function keys and other keys can change sort and so on, and some keys do space-delimited copy to clipboard, newline-delimited copy to clipboard, select by wildcards, filter by wildcards, command entry, open command shell he
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05:23:00 <zzo38> re, and multi panes.
05:25:17 <zzo38> Is that good enough file-manager?
05:27:36 <zzo38> Another feature would be to return a newline-delimited list of the selected files when the file manager window is closed.
05:27:42 <zzo38> (That is, return it to stdout)
05:28:18 <zzo38> Is this also a good feature, in your opinion?
05:29:23 <zzo38> Are any of these things I have described about it, things you would use or are interested in, or other people who are interested in?
05:31:14 <zzo38> There would be no menus, no toolbars, no icons for files, no context menus..... but there will be a status bar to indicate number selected, total size selected, current directory, current mode, and so on.
05:31:58 <zzo38> (And the three mouse buttons are used for different methods of selection, and also depending on single-click or double-click)
05:35:42 <zzo38> And three display modes: "short mode" (like output of "ls" to a color terminal), "long mode" (like "ls -l"), and "gallery mode" (displays a grid of thumbnails of all pictures in the directory, and ignores all other files)
05:36:17 <zzo38> (Gallery mode is the only mode that this program would display any graphics at all)
05:38:18 <zzo38> Are these all good ideas? Or are you differently?
05:41:49 <alise> I'm differently, but they are acceptable.
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05:42:26 <zzo38> Gregor: Are you still available and do you have opinion?
05:43:26 <Gregor> Yes, I'm still single but I'm not really into long-distance relationships.
05:44:25 <pikhq> However, Gregor *is* perfectly open to same-sex relationships.
05:45:28 <pikhq> He may well be implementing part of the plan for all geeks to get laid.
05:47:07 <zzo38> I am open to asexuality because I am asexuality. I am not sexuality, and I am not homosexuality, and I am not heterosexuality.
05:48:00 <pikhq> Congrats on not being abstract concepts.
05:48:24 <Gregor> pikhq: While also being a particular abstract concept.
05:49:31 <zzo38> xeye [-i] [-b bgcolor] [-f fgcolor] [-t thickness] [-a] [-b] [-w intended_screen_width] [-h intended_screen_height] [< file]
05:50:46 <zzo38> xaclock [-b bgcolor] [-f fgcolor] [-t thickness] [-a] [-b] [-x x_coordinate] [-y y_coordinate] [-r radius] [-w intended_screen_width] [-h intended_screen_height] [-z timezone] [-s]
05:51:22 <zzo38> Are these sensible to you?
05:52:13 <zzo38> These are two of the three "decoration programs" I plan to put in my Linux distribution (only these three, the third being the screen saver)
05:53:09 <Gregor> Is xeye the program formerly known as xeyes?
05:53:37 <zzo38> No, xeye is a new program that does something like xeyes
05:54:13 <zzo38> It draws one eye for each line from stdin x,y,radius.
05:56:11 <zzo38> Does it make sense? Does xaclock make sense?
05:56:31 <Gregor> What's the purpose of the intended width/height attributes?
05:57:44 <zzo38> Gregor: To optionally synchronize with positions of a centered background picture (which are only potentially useful if you do not use the always-on-top option or the option to not suppress window borders)
05:58:40 <zzo38> For example, if you have a background picture with a big monster with 17 eyes, and a clock on the wall in the background picture, you can include the parameters with it to make it work with these decorations even if your screen resolution is different
06:00:25 <zzo38> (Obviously it won't work if the perspective is wrong, but that is something you have to deal with, if you want xeye and xaclock to work with it, ensure to draw it with the correct perspectives!)
06:05:53 <zzo38> We don't need the -i option. Instead, just have xeye support comments in stdin with # at front, and #! beginning a multiline comment that ends with #?
06:07:13 <zzo38> And the -s (sound effects) option needs to take one parameter, which is the volume
06:10:46 <zzo38> xalsave [-l] [-w timer] [-p] screen_saver_type [screen_saver_arguments...]
06:12:21 <zzo38> screen_saver_type: analog-clock, digital-clock, text, display-hack, blank, dim, status, cellular-automata, energy-saver
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06:54:01 <pikhq> Gregor: http://xplsv.com/prods/demos/xplsv_orsotheysay/ You may now feel inferior.
06:54:46 <Gregor> This utterly frozen browser sure makes me feel inferior ...
06:55:10 <pikhq> Or recent Firefox.
06:56:16 <Gregor> Hm, is this canvas or something more exotic?
06:56:29 <pikhq> http://capped.tv/xplsv-or_so_they_say Or you could just watch a video of the same demo...
06:57:39 <Gregor> This doesn't really make me feel inferior though :P
06:57:41 <Gregor> Graphics ain't my thing.
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08:36:16 <Gregor> augur: Dancing because?
08:36:32 <augur> im working on a linguistic command line
08:36:44 <augur> and the language module for it is coming along nicely
08:36:48 <Gregor> I'm working on ... taking pictures of my eye :P
08:37:05 <Gregor> So you can parse all English I assume? :P
08:37:53 <augur> well, itll be a fragment of english
08:38:00 <augur> but the crucial part is what you do with the parses
08:38:39 <Gregor> Understanding English is good :P
08:38:50 <augur> language modules are supposed to transform (partial) sentences into key-value hashes that are used to represent commands to the command line
08:39:28 <augur> "move x to y" would be the command { pred: move, object: { pred: x }, to: { pred: y } }
08:40:52 <augur> but more importantly, it has to be able to take partial parses and do that
08:41:10 <augur> and it also has to be able to take partial parses, and a command, and turn the command into the full parses that correspond to it
08:41:27 <augur> e.g. if you have the partial parses for "move x" and the command from before
08:41:33 <augur> it should be able to generate "move x to y"
08:41:38 <Gregor> Star Trek, here we come.
08:42:18 <augur> internally the way im doing this is kind of perverse
08:42:56 <augur> itll be on github in a few days
08:43:12 <augur> ill give you a preview in a few hours once i get it to a state that i like
08:43:51 <Gregor> I'll be asleep in a few hours.
08:44:12 <augur> ok ill put it on my server now for your
08:45:49 <augur> http://ruby.pastebin.com/SBFwDwpe
08:46:00 <augur> mind you, im not a very stylistic ruby coder
08:46:16 <augur> i dont know all the standard style conventions
08:46:35 <Gregor> I don't even know ruby :P
08:46:48 <augur> the uh .. complete method is a complete mess, too
08:47:00 <augur> because of the various conditions that are involved
08:47:14 <augur> i could probably refactor the whole thing quite nicely but im not going to right now ;P
08:47:34 <augur> see, what i do internally is like so:
08:47:42 <augur> commands internally are turned into graphs
08:47:44 <augur> so instead of, say
08:47:59 <augur> cmd = { pred => move, object => { pred => x } }
08:48:17 <augur> { 0 => { pred => move, object => 1 }, 1 => { pred => x } }
08:48:42 <augur> then non-terminal in the tree is associated with a rule in the grammar, right
08:49:01 <augur> so lets just talk about grammars
08:49:13 <Gregor> I'm going to talk about sleep instead.
08:49:56 <Gregor> But immediately before I go to sleep, have a random picture of my eye because it took a lot of work to get this (fuzzy, out-of-focus) shot: http://codu.org/pics/main.php?cmd=imageorig&var1=Assorted%2Fmyeye-2010-08-07-4.jpg
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10:58:49 <Phantom_Hoover> I can't hum Also Sprach Zarathustra without it turning into the Mastermind theme tune!
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12:01:53 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover_: that you did." he stared down at oats. so did ysabell and the others?" said the archchancellor. he was walking unaided now, provided that it was a tsortean soldier. despite himself, death was his master and that's all there was to it.
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12:35:02 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: Go.
12:35:59 <Phantom_Hoover> "The hippo lunges at the ball! The hippo hits! The hippo eats a ball corpse."
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12:38:36 <Phantom_Hoover> OTOH if you made most modern games into Roguelikes they would be unbearably shallow.
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14:52:28 <Phantom_Hoover> I suppose someone knows why the Haskell logo is based on the bind operator.
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15:53:00 <AnMaster> fizzie, panos might be coming up later this evening. One or maybe two with grand sea view
15:53:23 <AnMaster> some from phone camera, some from my real camera
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16:21:27 <alise> I can resize and move windows without focusing them. Cool.
16:21:42 <alise> No, wait, I can't.
16:24:05 <alise> Darned keybindings inconsistency.
16:24:18 <alise> Well. Mousebindings.
16:29:52 <alise> Okayyyy... why does osstest work but not mplayer
16:30:34 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Pattern-matching works in eager languages
16:30:44 <alise> see e.g. ML; in fact pattern matching in eager languages predates pattern matching in lazy languages.
16:30:48 <alise> and indeed lazy languages altogether
16:30:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, http://mewtwo.sporksirc.net/~anmaster/images/gothenburg2010/tjol__oe__holm_1.jpg (__oe__ represents ö)
16:31:08 <AnMaster> fizzie, quite small, used mobile phone
16:31:43 <AnMaster> and it jpeg compresses the images badly
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16:31:57 <AnMaster> and yes, some quite bad colour shift
16:32:24 <alise> mwahahaha my window manager configuration will defeat evil
16:32:36 <Sgeo> alise become: nil
16:32:39 <alise> what i meant to say is MWAHAHAHAHA
16:32:55 <alise> Sgeo: Try "true become: false" sometime.
16:33:31 * Sgeo tried Object become: nil. on the recommendation of a tutorial once
16:33:36 <alise> Sweet, Pharo is in AUR.
16:33:38 <Sgeo> The VM crashed
16:33:44 <alise> Sgeo: AUR = Arch User Repository.
16:33:54 <alise> Basically a bunch of "source packages" for Arch Linux.
16:34:06 <alise> So instead of getting the binary your package manager goes and builds it, etc., then installs it.
16:34:21 <alise> If you have a package manager that supports AUR it's basically like a regular package but sometimes not as polished and it takes a little bit longer.
16:34:32 <alise> Polish is only wrt patches and build settings, though.
16:34:38 <Sgeo> true become: false. doesn't cause crashy crashy. It causes freezy freezy.
16:34:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Generally, http://www.conservapedia.com/Essay:_The_transitional_animal_the_flying_kitty%3F
16:34:58 <alise> Sgeo: I think it's doing some sort of loop based on whether a value is true or false
16:35:06 <alise> Sgeo: and obviously it's always false, so the loop never terminates
16:35:08 <alise> thus freezy freezy
16:35:20 <alise> Sgeo: use of become: btw -- future values
16:35:21 <Sgeo> Well, the screen gets repainted when I unminimize
16:35:24 <alise> (you know what futures are?)
16:35:32 <alise> yeah but the VM handles painting
16:35:35 <Sgeo> ...any relation to laziness?
16:35:54 <alise> basically a future is the result of a function called lazily
16:36:12 <alise> foo := @ bar longComputation: vitalInput
16:36:24 <alise> "foo xyzzy", it'd return @ foo xyzzy
16:36:36 <alise> i.e. all message calls are delayed and run asynchronously, while "returning" immediately
16:36:43 <alise> you can force a future to be evaluated
16:36:53 <alise> now, when the future is forced, or the asynchronous computation completes, the Future code can do:
16:36:59 <alise> theFuture become: theResult
16:37:07 <alise> tada! no pesky wrapper objects left hanging around
16:38:03 <Sgeo> Why must SmallIntegers hate become:?
16:38:11 <alise> Sgeo: because they're not real objects
16:38:18 <alise> you get how every object is a pointer, right?
16:38:27 <alise> like 0xfff points to an instance of MyAmazingClass
16:38:32 <alise> what smalltalk does is align every pointer
16:38:39 <alise> so that every pointer ends with a 0 in binary
16:38:55 <alise> every SmallInteger, which is 31 bits (or 63, I dunno if Squeak does 64-bit)
16:38:58 <alise> is stored in the rest of the pointer
16:39:02 <alise> and the bottom bit is set to 1
16:39:05 <alise> so there's no actual object there
16:39:10 <alise> it's stored inline, if you assign it to a slot
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16:39:15 <alise> or use it in a variable
16:39:32 <alise> instead of "x = pointer to <SmallInteger 3>" we have
16:39:36 <Sgeo> But that breaks the uniformity of everything being an object :(
16:39:54 <alise> Sgeo: no it doesn't
16:40:00 <alise> Sgeo: from the perspective of the language SmallIntegers are objects
16:40:07 <alise> because you can send them messages, etc; this is handled specially by the VM
16:40:13 <Sgeo> objects that can't handle become:
16:40:23 <alise> it's not like "Object become: nil" works either
16:40:31 <alise> i'd say an error telling you you can't do it beats a VM crash
16:40:42 <alise> become: only works in controlled circumstances
16:41:02 <alise> Sgeo: besides, any class can override become: to give one of those messages
16:41:10 <alise> although you could manually delete it from that class, still
16:41:17 <alise> anyway if it wasn't done smalltalk would be slow as fuck rather than slow as shit
16:42:03 <Sgeo> Stupid efficiency concerns!
16:42:32 <alise> Hahaha. Smalltalk is the last one to worry about efficiency concerns.
16:42:41 <alise> Sgeo: anyway, SmallInteger absolutely does not break Smalltalk's purity
16:42:43 <alise> trust me on that one
16:45:53 <Sgeo> What happens when the future wants to return a SmallInteger?
16:46:09 <Sgeo> (Would actually come up if I used futures for the AW SDK stuff)
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16:47:08 <alise> foo become: 3 works
16:47:10 <alise> just not 3 become: foo
16:47:19 <alise> theFuture become: theResult, theFuture is a Future, theResult is 3
16:47:31 <Sgeo> ...aren't they identical? become: is supposed to swap the two...
16:47:46 <alise> "x become: y" doesn't touch y
16:48:00 <alise> "x become: y", i.e. "make x y", not "make y x too"
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16:48:09 <alise> "true become: false" makes all booleans false
16:48:16 <alise> (unless you derive your own type of boolean ... :P)
16:48:30 <alise> sed 's/last full capacity: *\([0-9]*\) mAh/\1/g p; d' # Using sed to grep as well, fuck yeah!
16:49:43 <Sgeo> alise, you're wrong
16:49:59 <alise> I really don't think I am ...
16:50:13 <alise> I know the code looks like it swaps them, but it doesn't afaik.
16:50:36 <Sgeo> http://pastebin.com/Ng8x8dcf
16:51:01 <alise> That is new to me.
16:51:16 <Sgeo> There is a becomeForward:
16:51:20 <alise> Does "a become: 3" work?
16:51:22 <alise> Just out of curiosity...
16:52:08 <Sgeo> Error: can't become SmallIntegers
16:52:18 <alise> Sgeo: Then just make it an Integer.
16:53:23 <alise> [ehird@dinky ~]$ pharo
16:53:23 <alise> libXdamage.so.1: wrong ELF class: ELFCLASS64
16:53:23 <alise> could not find module vm-display-X11
16:53:23 <alise> /usr/bin/pharo: line 2: 15272 Aborted sh pharo.sh
16:54:37 <Sgeo> Going to watch some more SGA now
16:54:56 <Sgeo> If I had become: in C#, I'd abuse it to allow me to do unit testing
16:56:27 <Sgeo> fwiw, becomeForward: doesn't work with SmallIntegers either
16:56:53 <alise> I was going to express an opinion on SGA.
16:56:56 <alise> But it turns out I don't have much of a one.
16:57:14 <alise> Sgeo: just turn it into an Integer
16:58:29 <Sgeo> How am I supposed to do that?
16:58:34 <Sgeo> asInteger doesn't help
17:00:52 <alise> [ehird@dinky src]$ ./battery
17:00:57 <alise> Sgeo: Integer new: 3, or something.
17:01:34 <Sgeo> Integer cannot have variable sized instance
17:04:31 <alise> eh, i'd figure it out but i'm on 64-bit
17:04:34 <alise> which seems to be broken
17:06:38 <Sgeo> Ask for help in #squeak ?
17:15:28 <alise> I think it's an arch problem.
17:15:33 * alise has a battery script thing working!
17:15:54 <alise> Sgeo: 'Sides, don't you mean #pharo?
17:15:59 <alise> *Besides; 'sides is irritating.
17:16:26 <Sgeo> alise, there are 3 people in #pharo and I'm one of them
17:17:17 <Sgeo> Also, I only noticed this just now, but #pharo is the wrong #pharo
17:17:34 <Sgeo> ...and I was in the right #pharo-project which has 10 people
17:17:46 <alise> the AUR package just installs the 32-bit binary
17:17:50 <Sgeo> But still, #squeak is far more active
17:17:59 <alise> I'll just compile Pharo myself
17:18:25 <alise> technically it's just the squeak vm
17:19:41 <alise> There; sudo clyde -S squeak.
17:19:44 <alise> Then I'll manually grab the image.
17:23:31 <alise> This setup is pretty nice.
17:23:39 <alise> Perhaps I'm converging on a desktop OS I can stand.
17:27:34 <alise> Hi Phantom_Hoover.
17:30:07 -!- AnMaster has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net).
17:30:14 <alise> Sgeo: Is there a nicer/simpler theme than the OS X-style one?
17:30:16 <alise> I know there was in Squeak.
17:30:33 <alise> Hmm, they've switched to FirstLast instead of FL.
17:30:38 <Sgeo> There are other themes, but they're either ugly or broken
17:30:56 <alise> W2k isn't so bad. :-)
17:30:58 <Sgeo> World Menu -> System -> Settings
17:31:07 <Sgeo> Oh, you found it
17:31:10 <alise> Hey, they finally made the settings browser not suck.
17:31:15 <alise> Sgeo: I /have/ used Pharo before, just an older version.
17:31:40 <alise> Sgeo: Soft Squeak and W2K both seem nicer than Watery 2.
17:31:48 <Sgeo> The buttons on the taskbar thing are inverted in W2k, and the buttons turn blue eventually
17:32:02 <alise> The buttons look fine to me on W2K. But blueness is bad.
17:32:12 <alise> Soft Squeak, then.
17:32:17 <alise> Standard Squeak would be nicer if it wasn't white.
17:32:26 <Sgeo> Um, try minimizing and unminimizing a window to see what I mean
17:32:36 <alise> Anyway, in /my/ day we didn't _have_ a taskbar.
17:33:00 <alise> The OS X one is stupid anyway, the buttons are at the wrong side of the title bar.
17:33:35 <Sgeo> I'm not an OSX user, so I couldn't tell >.>
17:34:04 * alise makes his menus flat, without gradients or rounded corners.
17:36:04 <alise> Oh yes, the UI only uses bitmap fonts by default, how sane.
17:37:39 <alise> "Allow underscore as assignment". <3
17:38:50 <alise> Sgeo: What's the way to show the halo# these days?
17:39:10 <Sgeo> I have no idea, I just like to pretend it doesn't exist
17:39:24 <Sgeo> That's an Ugly Squeak (TM) thing to me
17:39:47 <alise> It is. But it's also the only way to inspect some objects.
17:40:10 <Sgeo> Probably some combination of alt or ctrl and a left or middle or right click
17:40:31 <Sgeo> Maybe it's a menu instead of a halo?
17:40:47 <alise> Resizing windows is as slow as always...
17:41:06 <Sgeo> Then I have no idea, sorry :(
17:41:22 <Sgeo> Brings up a menu
17:47:39 <alise> Not on the taskbar.
17:57:21 <alise> Sgeo: Gah, "n asArray" spits out an array of SmallIntegers; one would think there would be a corresponding fromArray, but it seems not.
17:57:48 <Sgeo> ...why would there be a fromArray?
17:58:03 <alise> Because there's an asArray which returns something just about useless without a fromArray.
17:58:14 <alise> stream := Array new writeStream.
17:58:14 <alise> self digitLength to: 1 by: -1 do: [:digitIndex |
17:58:14 <alise> stream nextPut: (self digitAt: digitIndex)].
17:58:48 <alise> Okay, so it returns digits. Hmhm.
17:59:00 <Sgeo> Or, you know, anArray at: 1
18:00:37 <Sgeo> But that's not ANSI
18:01:28 <alise> Gahh, I hate it when people go "WHY DO YOU WANT TO DO THIS? How DARE you ask without a practical, BUSINESS, best-practices reason for doing this thing?"
18:01:33 <alise> Sgeo: why are you wtfing?
18:01:42 <Sgeo> Because asArray makes no sense
18:01:50 <alise> 65536 asArray #(1 0 0)
18:01:54 <alise> Sgeo: Protip: The base isn't decimal.
18:02:32 <alise> Uh, I'm not sure what base it is.
18:02:45 * Sgeo wtfs at base 256
18:02:52 <Sgeo> (Trial and error)
18:03:44 <alise> you know what i mean
18:03:47 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: #squeak
18:03:55 <alise> <alise> How should I box a SmallInteger into a (Large) Integer?
18:03:56 <alise> <alise> I have no idea what you're talking about. >__>
18:03:56 <alise> <BrianRice> alise: why would you need to do that?
18:03:56 <alise> <alise> BrianRice: e.g. to use with become:
18:03:56 <alise> <BrianRice> alise: what's the overall goal/problem?
18:03:58 <alise> <BrianRice> there are ways to do it, but I'll avoid it if the purpose is just wankery
18:04:04 <alise> <BrianRice> alise: what's the overall goal/problem?
18:04:04 <alise> <alise> Sgeo was wondering :-) just academic, although e.g. an implementation of futures that does "theFuture become: theResult" on completion would need to do it
18:04:07 <alise> <alise> if the result could be a SmallInteger.
18:04:09 <alise> <BrianRice> there are ways to do it, but I'll avoid it if the purpose is just wankery
18:04:59 <alise> <BrianRice> I expect that you should probably just look at existing implementations of futures like Squeak-E's promises
18:05:00 <alise> <alise> Well, yeah, it was just a hypothetical example.
18:05:00 <alise> <BrianRice> here, I'll teach you how to fish
18:05:19 <alise> I urgently require a method to slap people over TCP/IP.
18:05:32 <Sgeo> IMO, it seems more like giving us fish we aren't even interested in
18:06:00 <alise> <BrianRice> go open a class browser and look at the class side of Integer and its subclasses. or try browsing references to large integer class names, since those would be calling class-side methods.
18:06:00 <alise> <alise> Yeah, I did that.
18:06:00 <alise> <alise> I've been looking for ten minutes.
18:06:29 <Phantom_Hoover> So wait, does asArray just break the integer down into its constituent bytes and arrayise them?
18:06:29 <alise> "Why do you want to know, mere mortal?" "What's that? You're just CURIOUS? Well I know, but I'm not telling you." "Here, let me be condescending." "Have you looked at the class?"
18:06:36 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Apparently.
18:07:34 <alise> <BrianRice> keep at it. you need to learn this skill and I can't just fix it over IRC
18:07:35 <alise> <alise> BrianRice: Well, it seems you're more interested in being condescending than actually helping at all. I'd looked for 15 minutes and, if you knew, you could answer in one line; if you didn't want to tell me, you could have not said anything; but instead you're lecturing me about doing something I've already done. So thanks, but no thanks.
18:08:52 <alise> NO IT'S "LEARN HOW TO TOTALLY SEE WHAT METHODS WILL DO WHAT" YOU SUCK LOL I AM PROFESSIONAL PROGRAMMER
18:09:57 <alise> I presume he's a professional, nobody else uses Smalltalk apart from hobbyists and they're just as assholic but less condescending.
18:10:13 <alise> <BrianRice> alise: hey, I'll readily admit I don't know, but I don't know any question here on channel when first asked. I always figure it out dynamically. you guys are just not motivating me if you don't have an actual problem to solve and won't read existing code that does this.
18:10:13 <alise> <alise> BrianRice: you said "there are ways to do it"... I'd read existing code that does it if I had any idea where such code is.
18:10:13 <alise> <alise> I thoroughly looked at every method that could be in any way relevant.
18:10:13 <alise> <BrianRice> well, try debugging an overflow condition
18:10:18 <alise> What ridiculous advice.
18:10:52 <Phantom_Hoover> asArray breaks a bigint into constituent bytes, doesn't it?
18:13:28 <alise> Sgeo: Yeah, dearrayising works.
18:13:31 <alise> But it's so... silly.
18:14:25 <Sgeo> What if you don't know whether ot not it's a SmallInteger, and don't want to deal with it on the side using the future?
18:14:59 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: No such functions.
18:15:16 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Only methods.
18:15:21 <alise> Sgeo: You can check what class a value belongs to.
18:15:32 <Phantom_Hoover> But which is better? There's only one way to find out!
18:23:25 <alise> b := a positive ifTrue: [LargePositiveInteger new: 4] ifFalse: [LargeNegativeInteger new: 4].
18:23:30 <alise> b replaceFrom: 1 to: 4 with: a startingAt: 1.
18:24:03 <alise> replaceFrom:to:with:startingAt: is a primitive, too, so this should be the most efficient way, more or less.
18:29:07 <alise> Sgeo: Do you know the coding convention for when you do (...) someMsg: ... but the ... has an indent?
18:29:17 <alise> ifTrue: [LargePositiveInteger new: self digitLength]
18:29:17 <alise> ifFalse: [LargeNegativeInteger new: self digitLength])
18:29:17 <alise> replaceFrom: 1 to: self digitLength with: self startingAt: 1.
18:29:29 <alise> but it seems weird how the replaceFrom:to:with:startingAt: line lines up with the conditional.
18:29:39 <alise> are you meant to have it unindented?
18:33:22 <alise> Sgeo: ok, do you know how to file-out more than one method?
18:33:46 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, incidentally, do you know where there's any decent documentation for Epigram 2?
18:34:02 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: there's a lot of links here: http://www.e-pig.org/darcs/Pig09/web/
18:34:10 <alise> http://personal.cis.strath.ac.uk/~adam/type-inference/
18:34:10 <alise> http://personal.cis.strath.ac.uk/~dagand/#publications
18:34:16 <alise> Everything on http://strictlypositive.org/
18:34:26 <alise> and most especially http://www.e-pig.org/epilogue/
18:34:38 <alise> There is no real actual written documentation, but by reading those and the Epitome you should be able to figure out ... well, something.
18:34:54 <alise> http://www.e-pig.org/darcs/Pig09/man/man.html
18:35:06 <alise> http://www.e-pig.org/darcs/Pig09/test/Syntax.pig
18:35:56 -!- zzo38 has joined.
18:36:17 <zzo38> Does this count as a three-star literate programming? if(*rule=='#' && (rule++,!is_weaving)) return;
18:36:23 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: also http://www.reddit.com/user/pigworker, Conor's reddit account
18:36:47 <zzo38> (See: You've used the boolean operators to sequence commands - without an 'if'. e.g. (result = do_something()) && (result = do_something_else()); on the C2 wiki)
18:36:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Epigram, Agda and Coq are the most widely-used dependently typed languages, yes?
18:38:04 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Nobody uses Epigram. It's purely a research project, but it /is/ one of great interest.
18:38:28 <alise> Nobody uses Agda apart from the Agda developers and Haskellers who like to think they're mathematicians. It's a research system too, just with a lot of seemingly-pointless real world libs tacked onto an unstable system.
18:38:37 <alise> It's mature and works well.
18:38:46 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: because Epigram doesn't even have the upper layer language yet!
18:38:53 <alise> You know GHC's Core language that it compiles to?
18:38:55 <alise> The very small functional one?
18:38:58 <alise> Epigram, right now, is like that.
18:39:05 <alise> Epigram 1, sure, but nobody used that and it was never really completed.
18:39:12 <alise> Epigram 2 is in the very early stages (and has been since ~2005).
18:39:20 <alise> It's not nearly a useable language yet.
18:40:05 <zzo38> (But if I used && to sequence commands in C like that, I would probably only use it if there are many commands to be sequenced together in that way, and maybe type @/ after each one to make them appear on separate lines in the printout)
18:41:47 <zzo38> Literate Haskell is just a fake kind of literate programming!
18:42:04 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: What do *you* think I am going on about!
18:42:09 <alise> zzo38: You're right but that's ... terribly hyperbolic.
18:42:20 <Phantom_Hoover> I have no idea, except that literate programming comes into it somewhere.
18:42:28 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Don't worry, none of us have any idea either.
18:43:03 <zzo38> alise: What are you refering to, I wrote many things? What is right and terribly hyperbolic?
18:43:24 <alise> <zzo38> Literate Haskell is just a fake kind of literate programming!
18:43:27 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Not yet.
18:43:33 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Who knows what it will look like?
18:43:48 <zzo38> alise: O, so you agree? How is it terribly hyperbolic, though?
18:43:53 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: In 2005 they were scribbling on whiteboards. In recent years they've been redesigning the entire thing then finding out it's broken a few times.
18:43:58 <alise> Now they're actually writing the start of some code.
18:44:01 <alise> It's not a fast project.
18:44:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, so the Epitome isn't so massive as to be totally unreadable?
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18:44:35 <alise> zzo38: I agree because it can't do rearranging; but it's hyperbolic because in Haskell, this doesn't matter: functions are always very small, and they can access the state of other ones in the correct monads, so you just separate into functions instead of the <<things>>.
18:45:02 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: If you can handle tons of fun symbols where ASCII would go in real source code, and have an excellent ability to distinguish actual type theory from Conor's jokes, then it should be fine.
18:45:08 <alise> http://www.e-pig.org/darcs/Pig09/src/Epitome.pdf
18:45:12 <zzo38> alise: Ah, yes, OK.
18:45:13 <alise> It isn't that long because, indeed, they haven't got very far.
18:46:06 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: It is.
18:46:14 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: It's just preprocessed to make it all pretty with symbols and shit.
18:47:04 <alise> Well, a lot of these don't even exist in Unicode, I think. :-)
18:47:11 * alise tries to find a pdf reader
18:47:39 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Nope.
18:47:45 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Not quite everything.
18:47:46 <alise> [ehird@dinky ~]$ ./src/battery
18:47:46 <alise> 5% (.22 hours remaining)
18:47:56 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Nope.
18:48:05 <zzo38> But it is possible to add stuff in some sections meant for that purpose
18:48:18 <Phantom_Hoover> A small subset of everything and a billion Chinese characters?
18:49:12 <pikhq> I seem to recall Unicode can encode all *currently spoken* natural languages by now.
18:49:35 <pikhq> Well, all currently spoken, *spoken* natural languages, with an orthography.
18:50:01 <pikhq> And a decent number of historical scripts as well.
18:50:06 <pikhq> By no means complete though.
18:50:27 <pikhq> And, of course, its encoding of Chinese script is very much incomplete.
18:51:33 <pikhq> Gets the vast majority of CJK glyphs currently used, at least.
18:52:16 <pikhq> Though it inexplicably doesn't encode "Biáng biáng noodles".
18:54:53 <alise> Okayyy, I sure hope there is a good PDF reader in existence that isn't Evince.
18:54:56 <alise> (Evince depends on GNOME.)
18:55:18 <alise> pikhq: What do you read PDFs with?
18:56:21 <pikhq> alise: Currently, xpdf.
18:56:27 <pikhq> I would love a better PDF reader.
18:56:43 <alise> pikhq: Evince is really nice if you can handle the GNOME dependencies; really really nice.
18:56:58 <alise> pikhq: You might like zathura: https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=80458
18:57:16 <alise> I don't because I'm a bit of a mouse weenie.
18:58:02 <alise> My perfect PDF reader: Continuous view, scroll bar for the whole PDF. Resizing the window scales the PDF to fit the width. /Maybe/ some way to show the page number.
18:58:46 <alise> So I need to figure out poppler and GTK.
18:59:01 <pikhq> (thank God for poppler)
18:59:30 <alise> I shall christen it... pew. For "Pdf viEW"? Maybe?
19:00:53 <alise> pikhq: Okay, I'd better install an editor then!
19:01:00 <alise> All I have is XFCE's mousepad (which is a nice notepad replacement, btw.)
19:01:13 <Gregor> Have fun reflowing PDFs.
19:01:25 <pikhq> Gregor: Scaling != reflowing
19:01:50 <Gregor> Ah, OK, I misinterpreted the goals then.
19:01:59 <alise> Gregor: Mind you, I'd /love/ to be able to reflow PDFs.
19:02:03 <pikhq> alise: Y'know what there's a horrible lack of? Nice keyboard-based GUIs.
19:02:24 <alise> pikhq: There is, but this PDF reader won't fill that gap, seeing as it'll have, uh, no controls.
19:02:39 <alise> It might have /one/ control: to show the page # information.
19:03:00 <pikhq> See, I prefer graphics over a console. Unfortunately, the only things with keyboard-based interfaces are on a terminal for the most part...
19:03:11 <alise> Well, also search.
19:03:15 <alise> Search will just be /foo.
19:03:27 <alise> Or maybe Ctrl+S foo.
19:04:29 <pikhq> A GUI IM client which can be used without a mouse would be nice, for instance.
19:04:32 * Phantom_Hoover attempts to close the door on the roomful of monsters.
19:04:56 <pikhq> (as would a TUI IM client at all, for that matter. I'm currently using freaking irssi via bitlbee. Bit clunky.)
19:05:12 <alise> pikhq: If I ever get around to making my IRC client it'll fit that definition.
19:05:24 <alise> pikhq: It /will/ have menus, but anything you're ever going to want to do will be keyboard-based.
19:05:42 <alise> I mean, occasionally I end up operating in mouse-only mode for a while.
19:05:50 <alise> Especially if I'm browsing a lot.
19:06:06 <alise> pikhq: Oh, and of course the main feature, which will be proper typography.
19:06:18 <alise> Say, /actual spacing/ between the messages. Actual line spacing, for that matter.
19:06:25 <alise> In fact, I could just take cues from how plays are typeset, couldn't I?
19:06:31 <alise> They're pretty similar to IRC.
19:06:44 <pikhq> It's just that... Urgh. The mouse is such a piss-poor interface device for most things.
19:06:57 <alise> I agree, but... with reservation.
19:07:14 <alise> I like to manage windows with my mouse -- that doesn't imply a floating manager, though.
19:07:23 <alise> Phantom_Hoover knows about my platonically-ideal tiling mouse-based WM design.
19:07:47 <pikhq> Yes, yes. A mouse is good for dealing with things that are inherently dealing with XY positions.
19:08:10 <pikhq> It's poorly adapted for "I want to hit the foo button, then the bar button, and then the baz option on the menu."
19:08:21 <alise> Right now I can manage all my windows with just a three-button mouse and the alt key. (Alt+left to move, Alt+middle to group in tabs iwth another window, Alt+right to resize, double click title bar to maximise, middle click title bar to close, right click title bar to hide, alt+right click title bar to bring up menu)
19:08:41 <alise> (This is, incidentally, the nicest WM workflow I've come across yet. At least until I make that tiling WM.)
19:08:54 <pikhq> A keyboard is *better* for such things, though perhaps a bit sub-par.
19:09:07 <alise> Better for what I said or for what you said?
19:09:35 <alise> Mm. For what I said, wrt the clicks, you'd think so, but actually the instinctual action kicks in. Like the Plan 9 guys say, the keyboard is a lot more think-y, whereas the mouse is a lot more do-y.
19:10:02 <pikhq> (optimal would be something with an entirely-software-driven tactical interface. Physical buttons being made as the software needs it, for instance.)
19:10:07 <alise> So even for closing windows, etc., I find the mouse more efficient (even though if you "self-timed" yourself in your head it'd probably seem slower since the keyboard is occupying brain CPU time, whereas the mouse is "boring" instinctual work)
19:10:11 <alise> pikhq: Yes; very yes.
19:10:24 <alise> pikhq: Although any position where you can touch your screen is awkward with a typical screen.
19:10:30 <alise> Have you read Stanislav's The Glove Box?
19:10:41 <alise> http://www.loper-os.org/?p=35
19:10:43 <pikhq> I never said anything about it being the normal display screen.
19:10:55 <alise> The Glove Box is a 3D, tactile display.
19:10:56 <pikhq> Think about something like a keyboard, except the buttons come in and out as the software demands.
19:11:09 <pikhq> Or a 3D tactile display. :P
19:11:20 <alise> I suggest reading the post; it even mentions how you could do such a "display".
19:11:23 <pikhq> (and of course, you get a normal keyboard for text input)
19:11:50 <alise> I dunno, I bet I could invent hand movements that represent letters/words more efficient than a keyboard.
19:11:51 <alise> Look at sign language.
19:11:59 <alise> With the Glove Box, that would be easy to implement.
19:13:06 <pikhq> alise: I was imagining just a mere keyboard-thing with software-defined buttons.
19:13:17 <pikhq> With the Glove Box, you've got much more room for input design.
19:13:19 <alise> pikhq: You mean the Optimus thing? XD
19:13:30 <alise> http://www.artlebedev.com/everything/optimus/
19:13:37 <pikhq> alise: No, no, no. The buttons do not exist until the software requires them.
19:13:44 <pikhq> And they exist in the shape so asked for.
19:13:58 <pikhq> This would be, ah, *hard*.
19:14:04 <pikhq> Glove Box is amusingly a bit easier. :P
19:14:22 <alise> (add-hook 'c-mode-hook (lambda ()
19:14:22 <alise> (c-set-style "linux")
19:14:22 <alise> (setq tab-width 4)
19:14:22 <alise> (setq c-basic-offset 4)))
19:15:21 <alise> "There is currently very little documentation." --poppler
19:15:29 <alise> Glib: Documentation is in the release under glib/reference/html/
19:16:37 <alise> A good name for awful software.
19:17:27 <alise> pikhq: ePDFView may be good; Evince sans GNOME.
19:17:31 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Plus other crap base don that, yes.
19:17:43 <alise> Not just OOP C; GObject, the worst possible incarnation of it.
19:17:52 <alise> pikhq: It's in emerge.
19:18:35 -!- augur has joined.
19:18:41 <alise> Doesn't support proper continuous mode though. Sigh.
19:20:20 <alise> pikhq: "index.sgml" --poppler source tree
19:20:28 <alise> It is actually SGML; I am not fucking with you.
19:20:41 <alise> <ANCHOR id="poppler-poppler" href="poppler/poppler-poppler.html">
19:20:41 <alise> <ANCHOR id="poppler-poppler.synopsis" href="poppler/poppler-poppler.html#poppler-poppler.synopsis">
19:20:41 <alise> <ANCHOR id="PopplerDocument" href="poppler/poppler-poppler.html#PopplerDocument">
19:20:54 <pikhq> ... *It is actually straight SGML*. My God.
19:21:27 <alise> Anyway, pew will be written in either Vala or Genie.
19:21:44 <alise> Since I have to deal with Glib and GTK+.
19:22:32 <pikhq> Yeah, if you're using GTK+ you may as well retain sanity.
19:23:42 <alise> Genie is great, have I mentioned that? It's a compiled-almost-straight-down-to-C-plus-GObject language with Pythonesque syntax (but without stupid colons) and with proper lambdas (they can contain statements)...
19:24:20 <Phantom_Hoover> What is it with Python's crippled lambdas, by the way?
19:26:12 <alise> My competing PDF library will be called "tribble".
19:26:25 <alise> Wow, that's an indirect reference. Can we get some three-star referencers in here?
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19:27:38 <alise> pikhq: This: http://sprunge.us/cKiP compiles to this: http://sprunge.us/feLC
19:29:16 <alise> How do you configure the browser XChat uses?
19:30:46 -!- AnMaster has joined.
19:34:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, apart from the above mentioned pano today I have this one: http://mewtwo.sporksirc.net/~anmaster/images/gothenburg2010/tjol__oe__holm_2.jpg
19:35:08 <AnMaster> my good camera, but some parallax
19:35:21 <AnMaster> less in the preview, it really selected bad seams
19:36:08 <AnMaster> have a few more, not sure if I will do them now or later
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19:39:56 <zzo38> A best kind of PDF view is, displays nothing except status bar (which shows page number and filename, and numeric prefix to commands), and the page view.
19:40:13 <zzo38> And then, "v" switch view to normal document view or bookmarks view, "p" to print document, "s" to search, "S" for document status, "d" to change display settings, "return" to go to page by numeric prefix, "t" to convert to text,
19:40:16 <zzo38> "a" to adjust settings of document in memory, "C" to adjust command-line flags,
19:40:35 <zzo38> No interactive or animation or whatever
19:40:44 <zzo38> (unless enabled by command-line flags)
19:40:59 <AnMaster> zzo38, as far as I know pdf isn't interactive in any way?
19:41:10 <AnMaster> well you can make links, so you can click on "see figure 4.2"
19:41:10 <zzo38> Also, document security settings is ignored unless told in command-line flags to be standards-compliant
19:41:29 <AnMaster> and also a way to jump back to where you were before following the link in many readers
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19:42:14 <AnMaster> zzo38, all pdf readers except xpdf on linux has an option to ignore those, most ignore them by default
19:42:15 <zzo38> And each of three mouse-buttons different function, also depending on single-click/double-click, shift key held down or not, etc
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19:42:35 <AnMaster> well, all I know about that is
19:43:01 <zzo38> And if you have links and a way to jump back like that, then also have, "b" to go back, and "k" to follow a fake link that points to the current location (so that you can navigate manually and then push "b" to go back)
19:43:02 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> I suppose someone knows why the Haskell logo is based on the bind operator. <-- i am pretty sure there was a contest. the previous one was a hodgepodge of lambdas and other symbols
19:43:24 <alise> pikhq: Unfortunately, it appears that there is no genie-mode.
19:44:14 <AnMaster> alise, everything is awfully slow on this wlan, so "check logs" is extremely unhelpful
19:44:31 <AnMaster> in fact everything but upload speed, very strange
19:44:31 <zzo38> AnMaster: There, is these things OK now in your opinion?
19:44:46 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Haskell_logos
19:44:49 <alise> AnMaster: it's a language thing.
19:45:11 <AnMaster> zzo38, you said no interactive, do you include having clickable (or otherwise followable) links in that category?
19:45:33 <zzo38> AnMaster: No, followable internal links don't count as interactive in this case
19:45:59 <zzo38> (Left-click selects text or objects, left-double-click follows internal link, middle-click scrolls, right-click to drag to draw a zoom box)
19:46:14 <AnMaster> zzo38, I still suspect I will just continue to use evince, but your one sounds like a usable minimalistic alternative then
19:46:15 <zzo38> (And right-double-click zooms out)
19:46:54 <oerjan> hm, the haskellwiki itself hasn't had the logo updated :|
19:47:00 <AnMaster> zzo38, for following internal links, having a browser like history for them is really helpful, especially when the link is to some page 400 pages away and then you need to go back
19:47:22 <zzo38> PDFs can also sometimes send a message to a server by internet every time you view it, my PDF viewer also would not do such a thing unless you enable standards-compliant mode
19:47:34 <AnMaster> zzo38, I really like that feature of okular
19:47:46 <zzo38> AnMaster: Yes, you push "b" to go back, that is the history! And then, possibly, "B" for list of history.
19:48:19 <alise> where's ais523 when you need him
19:49:15 <AnMaster> zzo38, since the pdfs I read mostly fall into the category of standards with 400+ pages and lots of cross references... it is extremely useful
19:50:47 <zzo38> AnMaster: Yes, of course, that is why, that you would be able to use these kind of function, and PDF bookmarks menu, for these purpose.
19:50:59 <alise> pikhq: WTF? TAB in Fundamental mode is sometimes inserting spaces.
19:51:07 <alise> indent-tabs-mode is t
19:51:44 <AnMaster> alise, and what is indention width
19:51:52 <alise> no such thing in fundamental
19:51:54 <alise> *indentation, also.
19:52:05 <alise> which is why i'm so confused
19:53:59 <AnMaster> alise, maybe you misunderstood and there is such a thing in that mode?
19:54:16 <AnMaster> alise, or does it insert them up to the next tab stop?
19:54:41 <AnMaster> and is there any pattern behind when it happens?
19:54:45 <alise> Ctrl+V TAB even inserts 4 spcaes!
19:54:54 <AnMaster> like, if there is something in the tabs before
19:55:05 <alise> ctrl+v doesn't do that heh
19:55:07 <AnMaster> alise, okay *that* is confusing
19:55:20 <alise> TAB in col 0 inserts 4 spaces
20:09:27 <alise> pikhq: Bleh, This Is Hard.
20:10:28 <zzo38> Then, change the setting if you do not like it like that
20:11:12 <alise> zzo38: I can't figure out why it's doing it.
20:12:37 <alise> pikhq: You could try mupdf.
20:12:59 <alise> It may not be able to search for text, but by golly, it's the most precise and accurate PDF rendering you'll find!
20:13:05 <alise> And it /is/ entirely keyboard-based. :P
20:15:33 -!- alise_ has joined.
20:15:34 -!- alise has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:15:39 -!- alise_ has changed nick to alise.
20:15:43 <alise> MuPDF was so accurate it froze my system.
20:16:22 <oerjan> it brought the system down to 0 entropy, thus 0 kelvin
20:17:41 * alise has developed an Evil Plan
20:17:52 <alise> a language more naziesque than agda *and* eiffel
20:18:09 <oerjan> design by contract proofs
20:19:16 <alise> a language more naziesque than ada *and* eiffel
20:20:52 <alise> oerjan: well, Ada and Eiffel are more naziesque than Agda
20:20:57 <alise> so the statement is stronger
20:21:14 <alise> (a > b /\ a > c) = (a > max(b,c)) ofc.
20:23:51 <oerjan> (a > b /\ a > c) = (a > b \/ c)
20:24:23 <oerjan> hm wait that is true for >=, not >
20:24:45 <oerjan> because technically max(b,c) itself could be > b and > c
20:25:43 <oerjan> max might imply it's one of them
20:26:16 <alise> max(a,b) is definitely either a or b :P
20:27:23 <oerjan> well, nazi orders _should_ be total, come to think of it
20:30:10 <alise> procedure Maximum(A : Integer, B : Integer) -> Integer;
20:30:10 <AnMaster> <alise> MuPDF was so accurate it froze my system. <-- um, how?
20:30:10 <alise> else; --{ Thus B > A }
20:30:20 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Note that return parameters can have "tags".
20:30:25 <AnMaster> alise, swap trash or 100% cpu resources? Or kernel bug
20:30:30 <alise> For instance, the functions that do console IO will return with the tag [Performs_IO].
20:30:35 <alise> All functions that use them will also have this tag.
20:30:46 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: No...
20:30:48 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I'm inventing this.
20:31:02 <alise> You can call a function with the expectation that it will not perform console IO because it does not have the [Performs_IO] tag.
20:31:23 <Phantom_Hoover> No, I mean the need for a named variable for return values.
20:31:43 <AnMaster> alise, that code looks very much like a cross between pascal and VHDL to me
20:32:05 <AnMaster> but it would call it function not procedure
20:32:14 <AnMaster> since procedure is a function returning nothing
20:32:31 * Phantom_Hoover had an idea for a weird module system with only "export".
20:32:40 * alise tries to think of a suitably ludicrous contract for Maximum
20:32:43 * alise is unable to think of one
20:32:43 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, hm? what's so strange with that
20:32:56 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, you can use fully qualified name, in fact you do in many module systems
20:33:06 <alise> ha, I made an error in my comments!
20:33:35 <Phantom_Hoover> If you want to have the stuff in foo in bar, you need to but "export to bar" in foo.
20:33:48 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, well, there isn't in erlang either. You can import functions from modules, meaning you use bar() instead of foo:bar()
20:33:53 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, but that is it
20:34:28 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, oh like C++ "friend" stuff
20:35:09 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, so do I to the extent that it is possible
20:35:34 <AnMaster> there was some course using C++ this autumn iirc
20:35:56 <AnMaster> been C and python so far. Oh and VHDL and SQL but those are not general purpose
20:39:14 <alise> I present to you: Naked Zit (NaZi for short), the programming language.
20:39:14 <alise> http://sprunge.us/KXHO
20:39:22 <alise> Maximum, Minimum, and a relation between the two.
20:39:48 <alise> Note: The three spaces used for indentation are SOLELY for show; real code is always indented with tabs, the most reliable indentation character. Editors will display these as three spaces.
20:40:06 <alise> There is an error in this code.
20:40:19 <AnMaster> alise, that editors would display it as 3 spaces
20:40:37 <AnMaster> personally I prefer to have it equal 4
20:40:55 <alise> No, it is specified in the standard.
20:41:12 <alise> Now find the real error.
20:41:40 <alise> This is made especially easy by NaZi's clear syntax and precise specification.
20:42:08 <alise> AnMaster: If you can't handle Maximum and Minimum, how will you *ever* handle writing enterprise-grade systems in it?!
20:42:29 <alise> Sorry, "it" is not clear in the last sentence I said. I hereby replace "it" with "NaZi".
20:42:36 <alise> Syntactical style not obeyed.
20:42:50 <AnMaster> I don't plan to figure out that language
20:43:03 <AnMaster> and finally I'm busy doing other stuff on the side
20:43:26 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: The second time is in the contract.
20:43:48 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Which is abstract behaviour disconnected from the implementation.
20:44:01 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: The contract specifies behaviour about the function. It is checked every time the function is called in debug mode.
20:44:04 <alise> This is standard from Eiffel.
20:44:34 <Phantom_Hoover> But... why do you need to say that A and B are integers *twice*?
20:44:40 <AnMaster> why not just prove that contract statically?
20:44:48 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: There are two A and Bs.
20:45:02 <alise> The A and B in the contract specify abstract variables, like a "for all" quantification.
20:45:12 <alise> The A and B in the procedure declaration represent the specific A and B passed to the call.
20:45:34 <alise> Actually, that's flawed, but who cares, it's nazi.
20:45:38 <alise> Spotted the error yet?!
20:46:30 <alise> It does not state that.
20:46:37 <alise> Procedures are not values, and /= is not a defined relation.
20:47:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Maximum(A, B) =/= Minimum(A, B) is obviously false, then
20:48:22 <alise> You win a prize! That prize is the corrected version made before I even asked: http://sprunge.us/GPWD
20:48:32 <alise> This includes a never-seen-before language feature: contract conditions!
20:49:10 <alise> No! You might prove the WRONG THING.
20:50:08 <alise> WE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN AT WAR WITH COQASIA
20:50:20 <alise> Coqasians, noted for their white skin, are EVIL INCARNATE.
20:51:18 <alise> 05:21:50 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: alise has this thing
20:51:19 <alise> 05:21:56 <augur> jokes about "monad" and "nomad"
20:51:21 <alise> */prog/ has this thing
20:51:28 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Absolutely. No polymorphism.
20:51:33 <alise> They can't even handle tagged types.
20:53:08 <alise> augur: nomad is /prog/'s "joke", not mine
20:53:18 <augur> i dont know what /prog/ is
20:53:23 <augur> but it might as well be your joke
20:53:34 <alise> http://dis.4chan.org/prog/; I recommend not visiting, since it's turned to complete and utter shit.
20:53:40 <augur> i wont be visiting at all
20:53:44 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Well, almost; a text board.
20:55:24 <alise> Maybe I should write a Roguelike.
20:56:33 <alise> Space Invaders: The Roguelike
20:59:20 <alise> Oh, some souped-up Elite clone.
21:00:16 <Phantom_Hoover> For some reason my GPU hangs when I try to play it since I installed Lucid..
21:02:05 <alise> "Eben Moglen on LLVM: "Nobody has ever tried before, to build a multi-platform C compiler solely in order to undermine freedom"
21:02:49 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I suggest you use Alise Linux instead!
21:02:59 <alise> Which is my ridiculous name for Arch + my desktop stuff.
21:03:09 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: It's BSD! EVIL EVIL BSD.
21:03:14 <alise> They use a DEMON as their logo.
21:03:34 <Phantom_Hoover> It's a driver issue, so I suspect getting a new computer is the best course of action.
21:04:12 <alise> ARCH HAS ALL THE DRIVERS
21:04:43 <alise> What brand? Intel?
21:04:43 <Phantom_Hoover> I have a bit of cardboard with some lines and an Intel logo drawn on it stuck to my motherboard.
21:04:57 <alise> Intel video on Arch is pretty snazzy here...
21:06:45 <AnMaster> <alise> "Eben Moglen on LLVM: "Nobody has ever tried before, to build a multi-platform C compiler solely in order to undermine freedom"
21:07:01 <alise> Software Freedom Law Centre guy, FSF lawyer
21:07:03 <AnMaster> a retard obviously, unless I missed something HUGE
21:07:21 <alise> he thinks Steve Jobs piling money into LLVM is evil because it's to stop the gpl
21:07:23 <alise> and thus is against freedom
21:07:52 <alise> even rms isn't that crazy :)
21:08:39 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
21:09:04 <AnMaster> well, people could use it and not give back to the community. While there are some good points in that, you have to see both sides of it. However it should be up to each author if he wants other to be able to build stuff on his code without opening it up to everyone.
21:09:28 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: no
21:09:44 <AnMaster> but yeah I don't see issues with GPL, nor with BSD-2
21:09:46 <alise> from another time:
21:09:47 <alise> "Moglen explained how Apple’s use of LLVM as an alternative compiler to the GCC represented a threat to the movement. If I followed correctly, this is due to the fact that LLVM has a more permissive, “BSD-style” license."
21:10:03 <AnMaster> depeneds on what project and what you want others to be able to do with your code
21:10:26 <AnMaster> alise, yes that one makes no sense
21:10:26 * Phantom_Hoover is getting that from reddit comments and the guy's speech
21:17:56 <zzo38> I don't use BSD-style licenses in my own programs (unless I am making modifications of a program that is already BSD-licensed). I mostly prefer GNU GPL, but for some programs I just make it public domain.
21:20:27 <Gregor> It's not the worst point ever, I strongly suspect that the GPL is waaaaay up there in the reasons why Apple is so interested in clang and LLVM. Still, everybody else benefits too, so who cares :P
21:20:30 <zzo38> Is there any command in TeX to tell it to ignore the outerness of commands?
21:20:40 -!- derdon has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
21:20:52 <alise> The ... outerness?
21:20:56 <alise> Gregor: GPL3, yes; they were fine with GPL2.
21:21:08 <alise> Gregor: They started pouring more and more money into LLVM when gcc switched to GPLv3, which Apple wouldn't bundle.
21:21:11 <zzo38> alise: Like, if a word is defined with \outer
21:21:15 <alise> But yeah, calling LLVM a /thread to freedom/ is just... what.
21:22:22 <AnMaster> alise, thread to freedom sounds like it means the opposite
21:22:50 * alise tries to decide between two Arch font rendering packages.
21:23:07 <AnMaster> alise, it also sounds like a metaphor that was initially delivered way past it's breaking point
21:23:21 <alise> Metaphors are like babies ... you deliver them
21:23:39 <alise> Then you get carried away with them.
21:23:54 <AnMaster> alise, indeed I extended that metaphor of "extending a metaphor past it's breaking point" past it's breaking point
21:24:01 <Gregor> Incidentally, alise, that was a simile.
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21:24:46 <alise> Gregor: Similies are a new dawn.
21:24:57 <alise> They are the brightest girder in the pile of tacks.
21:25:08 <alise> Welp, looks like I've finally gone insane
21:25:12 <Gregor> Metaphors are like babies, similes are a new dawn.
21:25:20 -!- alise_ has joined.
21:25:27 <alise> I don't know what you're saying / but this has to rhyme with scorn.
21:25:35 <zzo38> WE ARE ALL INSANITY!
21:25:55 <zzo38> (Do not worry, it is good things in some contexts, i.e.)
21:25:56 <AnMaster> <alise> Gregor: Similies are a new dawn. <-- wait, is that a reference to that auto-tuned carl sagan thingy?
21:26:00 * pikhq is impressed with mupdf already
21:26:12 <alise> We are insanity! I got all my esolangers with me!
21:26:15 <alise> pikhq: But it can't even search!
21:26:15 <Gregor> mupdf: PDFs for muppets.
21:26:18 -!- alise_ has quit (Client Quit).
21:26:25 <pikhq> alise: Nor can xpdf. :P
21:26:39 <alise> pikhq: MuPDF is primarily designed for accurate reproduction of the printed result, anyway.
21:26:50 <AnMaster> alise, besides now I got an urge to listen for it, but I really want to play nwn for a bit. argh
21:26:53 * pikhq shall check it out
21:27:30 <alise> pikhq: Check what out?
21:28:11 <zzo38> Instead of using \outer I just changed yesweb so that any initializations like \newcount and so on go on a like with \init before \start (the "\in" at the beginning is significant, due to how yesweb works)
21:28:15 <pikhq> alise: MuPDF's actual PDF rendering.
21:28:50 <AnMaster> alise, that video... it seems that guy made more auto tuned ones from cosoms
21:28:56 <AnMaster> at least based on google search
21:29:07 <AnMaster> I have yet to check that other one out
21:29:21 <alise> pikhq: It calculates to a precision of fractions of a pixel.
21:29:31 <alise> pikhq: Especially text metrics:
21:29:32 <alise> "The renderer in MuPDF is tailored for high quality anti-aliased graphics. It renders text with metrics and spacing accurate to within fractions of a pixel for the highest fidelity in reproducing the look of a printed page on screen."
21:29:53 <alise> Unfortunately, its UI is... lacking.
21:30:12 <alise> brb, testing something
21:30:22 -!- alise has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:30:35 -!- alise has joined.
21:30:51 <alise> Let's see if my eyes can adjust to this particular blend of subpixel antialiasing.
21:31:08 <alise> Because dammit, I need higher fidelity fonts.
21:31:29 <pikhq> alise: I'm actually not minding its UI, except for lack of features.
21:31:37 <alise> Scrolling is... painful.
21:31:42 <zzo38> (In the part before \start, the "n" is a comment character and \i is defined to do nothing)
21:31:46 <alise> pikhq: The tragedy of Libertine and Biolinium is that freetype can't fucking render them properly!
21:31:51 <alise> With any settings!
21:32:02 <pikhq> alise: I've mostly used Libertine in TeX for that reason.
21:32:28 <pikhq> alise: BTW, MuPDF also offers a *library*.
21:33:22 <alise> I don't think it'll be significantly easier to use than poppler, however, and the fidelity is mostly a pedantic conern.
21:33:31 <alise> Aaargh freetype doesn't render "fi" as a ligature
21:35:48 -!- alise has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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21:36:02 <zzo38> "fi" should not be rendered as a ligature in monospace text. (2600 does render "fi" as a ligature even in monospaced text, and that is a bad idea.)
21:36:09 <alise> It's not monospaced text.
21:36:17 <alise> 2600? The magazine?
21:36:29 <alise> pikhq: Okay, how come freetype does "Qu" but not "fi"?
21:36:29 <zzo38> I do mean the magazine.
21:36:39 <alise> Well, it sort of does "fi". Sort of.
21:37:07 <alise> pikhq: BTW, have you ever tried ROX-Filer?
21:37:17 <alise> pikhq: It's like file managers, done right. In fact, it's not like that, it IS that.
21:38:18 <zzo38> alise: No, my idea for file manager is more better (at least in my opinion)
21:38:29 <zzo38> Let's see what kind of spells/powers my D&D character has:
21:39:05 <zzo38> Prestidigitation; Read Magic; Enlarge Person; Silent Image; Comprehend Languages; Summon Spider I; Locate Object; Hold Portal; Expeditious Retreat; Remove Hand; Object Mirrored;
21:39:30 <zzo38> Summon Rope of Spidersilk: Azore's Speaking Tome; Mirror Surface; Create Water; Amanuensis; Stick;
21:40:08 <alise> zzo38: Well, I wasn't referring to your opinion of file managers; I was referring to mine.
21:40:22 <alise> I think your idea is worse, at least for my usage.
21:41:05 <zzo38> Detect Psionics; Inertial Armor; My Light; Far Hand; Vigor; Touch of Health; Control Sound; Concealing Amorpha; Tongues; Levitate; Dispel Psionics; Detect Hostile Intent; Mass Missive; Control Light; Trace Teleport; Dimension Door; Major Creation; Object Reading; Time Hop; Make Food, Restore Extremity; Eidetic Lock; .....
21:41:16 <zzo38> alise: OK, that can be your opinion, is OK
21:42:28 <zzo38> Which spells/powers do you dislike?
21:42:32 <alise> pikhq: urxvt sucks at font spacing.
21:44:50 <alise> I hereby recommend uxterm in its place ...
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21:53:39 <alise> [[One expression I sometimes hear in motion pictures is the following: "I'm screwed". The character will pronounce these words when he suddenly realizes some problem that affects him cannot be solved. I looked in wiktionary.org for the verb to screw and the two definitions (acepciones in Spanish) closer in sense to what I think the verb means in the context of the above said expression are 2 and 3.
21:53:39 <alise> I'm almost certain it is a very rude expression. And wiktionary def.2 seems to confirm this. But I do now understand quite well def.3, especially when it says "screw follows fuck". However, I just have read a post in a very serious computer forum where somebody titles his post "Color prompt screws bash". I do not think the moderators there would allow it if it had sexual connotations.]]
21:53:49 <alise> Funniest thing I've read all day ^
21:54:53 <coppro> (President Skroob is totally a pun)
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21:57:47 <oerjan> fizzie: there appears to be a fungot shortage
21:58:08 <fizzie> oerjan: Yes, we lost them electricities for about two hours.
21:59:11 <fizzie> (Sometimes I have trouble believing this is a city.)
21:59:50 <oerjan> there was apparently a blackout in trondheim the other day. not here though.
22:00:25 <fizzie> It was a pretty localized break, something like ten times 5 city blocks (it's a bit hard to be sure, this is not a very grid-like layout).
22:00:33 <oerjan> (it affected the center of town, including the main hospital)
22:01:08 <fizzie> There was a reasonably strong storm here; we of course walked right through the rain and lightning, since we were at a (graduation) party of two friends from the university, and had to get home.
22:01:48 <fizzie> Hmm, the fungot laptop/server hybrid isn't speaking to me.
22:01:56 <oerjan> well then, obviously the lightning used up all the electricity.
22:02:16 <fizzie> I was in the room not long ago, and the GRUB boot menu was showing up okay.
22:02:31 <fizzie> There were a dozen kernels to pick from, though, and I have no clue whether I selected the right one. Possibly not.
22:03:04 <oerjan> sounds like an idea for steganography
22:04:56 <fizzie> They all had the same version, just different suffixes related to different adventurous voyages in virtualization-land.
22:05:03 <benuphoenix> steganography? find the hidden message: asdfghjkl
22:05:25 <fizzie> The one I picked (the highlighted one, I think it's with grub's savedefault so it should be good) apparently wasn't the right one, based on a kernel panic it had gotten into.
22:05:33 <fizzie> Perhaps this one will fare better.
22:05:45 <fizzie> At least it answers to SSH, which is a good sign.
22:05:54 <fizzie> (That system is in a serious need of cleaning up.)
22:07:11 <fizzie> It used to run Xen, but they completely dropped support for non-PAE processors, and that thing has the 1.5 GHz single Pentium M model that doesn't do PAE at all.
22:07:24 <fizzie> UML I've ran elsewhere, but not on that thing.
22:07:40 <fizzie> Currently it was a choice between kernels with openvz, vserver, or both, in the name.
22:07:48 <fizzie> (Apparently "both" was a working alternative.)
22:09:51 <alise> $ mupdf libertine.pdf
22:09:51 <alise> detected cpu features: mmx mmxext sse sse2
22:09:51 <alise> ximage: mode 24/32 00ff0000 0000ff00 000000ff (16,8,0) lsb <swap>
22:09:51 <alise> ximage: ARGB8888 to BGRA8888
22:09:51 <alise> ximage: XShmPutImage
22:09:58 <alise> pikhq: World's most advanced PDF renderer.
22:11:20 <oerjan> !haskell take 100$List.nubBy(((>1).).gcd)[2..]
22:11:34 <EgoBot> [2,3,5,7,11,13,17,19,23,29,31,37,41,43,47,53,59,61,67,71,73,79,83,89,97,101,103,107,109,113,127,131,137,139,149,151,157,163,167,173,179,181,191,193,197,199,211,223,227,229,233,239,241,251,257,263,269,271,277,281,283,293,307,311,313,317,331,337,347,349,353,359,367,373,379,383,389,397,401,409,419,421,431,433,439,443,449,457,461,463,467,479,487,491,499,503,509,521,523,541]
22:14:42 <alise> pikhq: So, do you think I should write my PDF reader using MuPDF?
22:14:51 -!- fizzie has quit (Quit: jumpin' jumpin').
22:14:53 -!- fizzie has joined.
22:15:00 <alise> "Quit" looks so elegant in this font.
22:15:11 <fizzie> Also those reverses, I really need to fix 'em.
22:15:34 -!- fungot has joined.
22:15:42 <alise> http://mupdf.com/repos/mupdf/mupdf/
22:15:45 <alise> http://mupdf.com/repos/mupdf/apps/
22:15:50 <alise> Worlds most advanced PDF viewer's C code.
22:16:23 <alise> http://mupdf.com/repos/mupdf/fitz/ Some geometry thing it uses.
22:16:28 <alise> http://mupdf.com/repos/mupdf/draw/ Drawing library...
22:16:47 <alise> Whole thing: http://mupdf.com/repos/mupdf/
22:17:05 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:18:12 <benuphoenix> how does that haskell line work? i'd love to try in it c
22:20:38 <oerjan> (((>1).).gcd) is the same as \x y -> (x `gcd` y) > 1 , it's a test for whether two numbers have a common prime factor
22:21:14 <oerjan> it's not particularly efficient, just short
22:21:32 <oerjan> (especially since x will always be a prime in this program)
22:22:39 <oerjan> nubBy goes through the infinite list [2..] of all integers >= 2, throwing way all that have common factors with previous remaining elements
22:24:05 <oerjan> so it's a form of eratosthenes sieve
22:25:58 <benuphoenix> my programs just use the function for generating primes
22:27:03 <oerjan> that function probably uses such a sieve underneath, if it gives primes by number
22:28:32 <oerjan> (i'm not aware of any way of finding the nth prime without essentially testing all previous ones. although i might just not have heard of it.)
22:28:59 <oerjan> s/testing/going through/
22:29:09 <benuphoenix> i'm referring to whatever the isprime() is called
22:29:15 <alise> benuphoenix: well that's cheating.
22:29:47 <oerjan> isprime() is less efficient than a sieve if you want to list all
22:29:54 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
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22:30:18 <oerjan> (it duplicates work. well i guess it could use a list of primes internally to shortcut some)
22:32:08 <Sgeo> Someone pinged me?
22:32:39 <oerjan> (don't use gcd either, use mod)
22:33:23 <oerjan> !haskell take 100$List.nubBy(((<1).).flip mod)[2..]
22:33:24 <EgoBot> [2,3,5,7,11,13,17,19,23,29,31,37,41,43,47,53,59,61,67,71,73,79,83,89,97,101,103,107,109,113,127,131,137,139,149,151,157,163,167,173,179,181,191,193,197,199,211,223,227,229,233,239,241,251,257,263,269,271,277,281,283,293,307,311,313,317,331,337,347,349,353,359,367,373,379,383,389,397,401,409,419,421,431,433,439,443,449,457,461,463,467,479,487,491,499,503,509,521,523,541]
22:34:00 <oerjan> (the speedup here is probably not noticable though)
22:34:59 <Sgeo> alise, when I do the LargePositiveInteger thing, I get 0
22:35:19 <oerjan> in principle one shouldn't use a linked list either, but an array for fast looping
22:35:28 <zzo38> Is that a bit strange? c+=first_col*!!(!(c=(c+1)%(first_col+num_cols)) && r++);
22:35:33 <Sgeo> (LargePositiveInteger new: 3) printit -> 0
22:35:48 <zzo38> Is it even valid in C without undefined behavior?
22:36:00 <alise> Sgeo: Erm, yeah, I pasted a long snippet.
22:36:20 <oerjan> hm two assignments to c
22:36:30 <alise> zzo38: that's not defined
22:36:41 <alise> 10:23:25 <alise> b := a positive ifTrue: [LargePositiveInteger new: 4] ifFalse: [LargeNegativeInteger new: 4].
22:36:41 <alise> 10:23:30 <alise> b replaceFrom: 1 to: 4 with: a startingAt: 1.
22:36:43 <alise> both lines are important
22:37:00 <alise> s/4/a digitLength/ to get something more general.
22:37:19 <pikhq> alise: Why do UIs suck so hard?
22:37:48 <alise> pikhq: Because. What UI is specifically giving you crap?
22:38:13 <pikhq> alise: Just a general sentiment is all.
22:38:36 <oerjan> does the && give a sequence point? i'm not a C expert but _maybe_ it's well-defined in that case?
22:38:36 <zzo38> alise: O, it is not defined? Because of both assignment to |c| both at once? OK
22:38:49 <zzo38> oerjan: I think the && gives a sequence point
22:39:13 <alise> zzo38: i'd suggest changing it anyway :D
22:39:17 <alise> pikhq: how's MuPDF?
22:39:20 <zzo38> alise: Yes, that is what I am doing
22:39:24 <pikhq> alise: Nice rendering.
22:39:32 <pikhq> Hardly any features.
22:39:54 <zzo38> It is now easier: if(!(c=(c+1)%(first_col+num_cols)) && r++) c=first_col;
22:41:34 <alise> pikhq: But not so good scrolling/zooming/etc.
22:41:48 <zzo38> pikhq: I have all of my own idea, instead, which is differently, but that is OK
22:46:36 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
22:47:46 <alise> zzo38: We know. :P
22:51:29 -!- gm|lap has joined.
22:51:35 <alise> Proposal: Interrobang as the Ligature for "?!" and "!?"
22:51:44 <alise> Imagine that in an OpenType font. Instant interrobangs!
22:52:02 <alise> Or exclagates, in the case of "!?".
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23:00:31 -!- Flonk has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
23:00:31 -!- Flonk_ has changed nick to Flonk.
23:02:31 -!- gm|lap has changed nick to GreaseMonkey.
23:21:48 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: New quit message. Entering 2006 in style.).
23:29:51 <alise> Interrobang = Interrogate + bang.
23:29:56 <alise> Exclagate = Exclamation + interrogate.
23:31:37 <Gregor> But that means if I exclagate you I don't bang you at all.
23:31:40 <Gregor> Where's the fun in that?
23:37:47 * Sgeo is contemplating watching SGU when he finishes SGA
23:37:54 <alise> Gregor: Well, you'll stay on the right side of the law.
23:38:07 <Sgeo> I do have a friend who likes SGU, so maybe it's not so bad
23:38:14 <Gregor> Sgeo: It's ... not great.
23:38:16 <alise> Sgeo: If the first two parts of Air are anything to go by, yes yes yes do. But get it in HD, it's filmed beautifully.
23:38:28 <alise> OTOH, Gregor has watched ... more than me, presumably.
23:38:41 <alise> but then I'm pretty sure coppro sat through the entirety of Voyager, so YMMV
23:38:46 <Gregor> I've watched all that have been released thusfar.
23:39:00 <Gregor> It's progressively turning into a cheesy soap opera.
23:39:04 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Quit: Quit).
23:39:07 <Gregor> It had potential, but it's just getting more stupid by the episode.
23:39:08 <alise> Thusfar: Not TECHNICALLY a word!
23:39:20 <Sgeo> Although someone I hooked on the Stargate franchise doesn't like SGU
23:39:25 <Gregor> alise: Technically "not TECHNICALLY a word" is meaningless.
23:39:36 <Sgeo> Then again, he also didn't like seasons 9+10 of SG-1
23:39:41 <alise> Gregor: The "gurl zvffrq... gjvpr" plotline that coppro told me about sounded awfully cheesy.
23:39:53 <alise> Sgeo: When did that guy whose name I forget "transcend"?
23:40:05 <alise> I thought that was awfully, terribly cheesy, and missed him; he was a good character.
23:40:11 <Sgeo> alise, hm? Daniel Jackson ascended twice
23:40:21 <Gregor> alise: He came back in the next season :P
23:40:23 <Sgeo> Well, the second time, not quite, I think
23:40:34 <alise> Well, at one point he disappeared and somebody replaced him.
23:40:38 <Gregor> alise: Pretend that season doesn't exist.
23:40:55 <Gregor> alise: The guy who replaced him is a Scientologist whose real name is more alien than his alien name :P
23:41:08 <alise> Wow, "Corin Nemec".
23:41:09 <Sgeo> But then you don't get to see the many deaths of O'Neill!
23:41:37 * Sgeo double-checks his spelling
23:41:42 <alise> Gregor: I didn't even realise he was an alien. Apparently "alien" means "identical to human".
23:41:49 <alise> He doesn't even have forehead ridges!
23:41:57 <Gregor> alise: Alien in the sense that if you moved to the US, you'd be an alien. He's human.
23:42:11 <Gregor> alise: Well, more alien than that, he's not from Earth :P
23:42:13 <alise> Well that makes much more sense XD
23:42:24 <Sgeo> Most aliens are human
23:42:30 <alise> I've always been uncomfortable with this humans-are-everywhere thing.
23:42:42 <Gregor> One of the reasons why Stargate: SG-1 was good is that the aliens looked human because they WERE human, and the truly alien aliens didn't look human.
23:42:52 <alise> Actually, the aliens-are-humanoid thing too. But that's to, you know, be practical to film.
23:42:54 <Gregor> Although it backpatched a cheesy explanation.
23:43:22 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/86/Teal'c.jpg
23:43:27 <alise> be prepared to scream
23:43:36 <Gregor> Teal'c is not a vulcan :P
23:43:45 <alise> Yes, but he also never smiles
23:43:49 <alise> And NOW I KNOW WHY
23:44:07 <Sgeo> Gregor, what was SGA's explanation? Humans evolved similarly to the ancients? Are the humans in Pegasus not actually human, but decended from ancients, or...?
23:44:28 <Sgeo> alise, he tells jokes!
23:44:39 <alise> The problem with abandoning the "aliens are pretty similar to humans" thing is that... well, you can't really make a long-lasting TV series out of Solaris.
23:44:51 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ka6tvlewO3c
23:44:55 <Gregor> Sgeo: Sapiens were seeded to evolve as they did by the ancients. The Wraith are half-human.
23:45:03 <Gregor> Sgeo: All very cheesy.
23:45:19 <Gregor> alise: See, but that's why SG-1 was good: It had an explanation that made sense, AND didn't require crazy costumes.
23:45:37 <alise> Gregor: But OTOH, humans are not very interesting aliens.
23:45:48 <pikhq> alise: And indeed, they aren't the interesting aliens.
23:45:52 <pikhq> alise: They're the slave race.
23:46:00 <alise> Star Trek, with its "fuck it, let's just make them humanoid" attitude, produces more interesting aliens.
23:46:02 <Gregor> But the goa'uld are, and they're parasites so they can be played by humans!
23:46:18 <alise> Yes... now try adding more aliens after you run out of plotlines.
23:46:24 <pikhq> The Asgard were also pretty awesome.
23:46:39 <alise> Don't get me wrong, I think Stargate is probably the most sci-fi of the sci-fi franchises out there.
23:47:01 <Sgeo> You know, I'd be pretty ticked by the Asuran replicators if they didn't say "most efficient form *that they knew*"
23:47:09 <alise> The Asgard were just Greys
23:47:10 <Sgeo> Gregor, there are still some out there
23:47:16 <pikhq> alise: Still awesome.
23:47:18 <alise> And Greys are NOT COOL
23:47:23 <Gregor> Sgeo: Shhhh, don't give away SG:A plots :P
23:47:28 <pikhq> alise: Norse! Greys!
23:47:40 <pikhq> Still, yeah. It's a concept that works well for about a reasonable show's length...
23:47:58 <alise> I have a stupid fucking GCSE English essay to be done by stupid fucking tomorrow demanded by my stupid fucking ex-teacher.
23:48:01 <pikhq> Making another *show* of it requires, well, bizarre writing hacks.
23:48:36 <Sgeo> Everyone should watch SGA "Irresistible"
23:48:39 <alise> Of course a /true/ sci-fi series has an infinite budget by definition and can represent all these aliens.
23:48:39 <Gregor> SG:U could have had potential ... but they went all soap-opera.
23:48:52 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined.
23:48:56 <alise> Gregor: Sad to hear that; the one I watched was pretty cool.
23:49:13 <pikhq> Oh, wait, that had lots of humanoid aliens too.
23:49:14 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
23:49:18 <alise> Pet peeve: Why is it that sci-fi writers, when trying to give something an exotic name, simply pick the least common letters in English and then add apostrophes?
23:49:24 <alise> I mean, come ON. It is not fucking hard to avoid that cliche.
23:49:36 <pikhq> Many sci-fi writers are completely unaware of linguistics.
23:49:53 <alise> If the aliens can pronounce sounds like ours, they can pronounce a regular-ish name; if they can't, you can't give them a name like that.
23:50:06 <alise> pikhq: But even the most idiotic sci-fi reader can see that it's a cliche!
23:50:22 <pikhq> This, incidentally, is the thing that annoys me most about Niven.
23:50:58 <Sgeo> Maybe regular-ish sounds are reserved for non-names?
23:51:03 <pikhq> His alien names are random letters and apostrophes. (well, except when he opts for not-sucky names.)
23:52:27 <pikhq> ("Chmeee" is a solidly meh name. Speaker-to-Animals is just somewhat interesting.)
23:53:25 <alise> I'd just invent a rudimentary alphabet and then specify the sounds, to be done as SFX.
23:54:31 <alise> pikhq: Fun fact: The first posted copyright-violation report was made by "Chuq Von Rospach", the first of June, 1986, on the posting of Niven's "Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex", and it was even more self-righteous than the copyright defenders are today: http://groups.google.com/group/net.comics/msg/22a6091beb0762eb
23:54:51 <alise> that the person involved contact Larry Niven with an apology, and see what
23:54:51 <alise> can be done to minimize the damage."
23:55:07 <alise> leaving the copyright notices off you have possibly put the work into the
23:55:07 <alise> public domain and infringed on Niven's rights to potential future earnings." <-- LOL WUT
23:55:29 <Sgeo> Surely e means that some may mistake it for being in the public domain?
23:56:20 <alise> > >This article is not in the puiblic domain. Mr. Crist has commiteed a crime
23:56:20 <alise> > >by publishing it without permission.
23:56:20 <alise> I love how absolutely DISGUSTED they are.
23:56:20 <alise> "Again, I recommend seriously that all System Administrators find the
23:56:20 <alise> offending copy of this article and delete it from their systems. All people
23:56:21 <alise> who made copies of the story should destroy them."
23:56:58 <alise> then he quotes the anarchist cookbook in his sig
23:57:05 <Sgeo> Surely that was before how widely understood it was that you can't really remove stuff from the Internet?
23:57:37 -!- AnMaster has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net).
23:57:46 <alise> pikhq: Sorry, what was that about Farscape?
23:57:51 <alise> Sgeo: You could remove things from Usenet.
23:57:58 <alise> Sysadmins, remember.
23:58:11 <Sgeo> But someone would surely just post it again
23:58:34 <alise> Posts can be cancelled. etc.
23:59:02 <alise> Oh and another thing ... why can't "serious" sci-fi shows just use the word "fuck" instead of coming up with shitty alien words for it?
00:00:19 <pikhq> "fuck" would be bleeped.
00:00:26 <alise> Wait ... even after 8/9 pm?
00:00:49 <alise> Wait ... didn't that show The Wire have a fuckton of profanity?
00:00:59 <pikhq> They had a fuckton of bleeps.
00:01:11 <oerjan> alise: the smeg i know
00:01:20 <alise> oerjan: The difference being that Red Dwarf was comedy. :P
00:01:29 <alise> pikhq: So ... uh ... how do you guys even ... television ... the?
00:01:45 <pikhq> The most bizarre thing being that this is also done on cable TV.
00:01:52 <Phantom_Hoover_> I seem to recall reading that it was partially due to the US having about 5 timezones, but that might be excuse-making.
00:01:55 <pikhq> ... Which has absolutely no such regulations at all.
00:02:40 <alise> pikhq: But ... why?
00:03:17 <Sgeo> SGA had a character say "ass" in front of a toddler. That caught me offguard
00:03:19 <pikhq> alise: Okay, imagine the oldest, most crotchety, conservative person you know.
00:03:23 <Phantom_Hoover_> alise, the US is very conservative. That's what it comes down to.
00:03:28 <pikhq> These people vote in droves.
00:03:39 <pikhq> And complain in droves.
00:03:39 <alise> pikhq: But if there isn't a law for it for cable TV...
00:04:02 <pikhq> They file complaints like crazy to the cable companies and the networks.
00:04:12 <alise> Iiiii want to cryyyy
00:04:15 <pikhq> In short: our old folk are fucking noisy and irritating.
00:04:25 <alise> Why are you guys allowed to be the biggest superpower?
00:04:28 <alise> Except maybe China.
00:04:34 <pikhq> And so our television censors based on 1920s social mores.
00:04:39 <Phantom_Hoover_> I mean, on TV Tropes there are various references to films actively trying to avoid an NC-17 rating as if it would make it worthless, which is treated as normal.
00:05:04 <pikhq> If a film is rated NC-17 in the US, it basically will not be seen.
00:05:23 <Sgeo> You can have frontal nudity in a non-NC-17 movie
00:05:48 <pikhq> Not because it's been banned, but because almost no stores will carry it and no theatres will carry it.
00:05:52 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover_: ... *PG*.
00:06:12 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: Redundant.
00:06:15 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
00:06:39 <alise> pikhq: Yeah... typical film ratings here are 12A (basically PG), 15 and 18.
00:06:51 <alise> Any "serious" film will be 15 or 18, most likely.
00:06:52 <pikhq> Here, full frontal nudity will not make it NC-17 unless the crotchety old bastards on the rating panel feel it's too much.
00:07:23 <pikhq> alise: We have G, PG, PG-13, R, (effective censorship) NC-17
00:07:48 <alise> pikhq: You're fucking crazy! I'm crying!
00:07:53 <alise> Oh, so it isn't even 17+, it's 18+.
00:08:05 <pikhq> R and NC-17 are *both* 18+.
00:08:06 <Phantom_Hoover> The BBFC system is something like Uc, U, PG, 12A, 12, 15, 18, R18.
00:08:07 <alise> What a stupid fucking name for 18+.
00:08:19 <alise> pikhq: But a 3-year-old can watch an R movie with a parent, right?
00:08:27 <alise> I don't think that is true in the UK.
00:08:29 <pikhq> Same with NC-17, actually.
00:08:36 <alise> "No one 17 and under admitted"
00:08:39 <alise> Would seem to imply not.
00:08:46 <alise> Shouldn't it be 21+, to reflect the USA's fucking crazy moral system?
00:08:50 <alise> R- Restricted (1968–present)
00:08:50 <alise> Under 17 requires accompanying by a parent or adult guardian
00:08:50 <alise> NC-17- No One 17 and Under Admitted (1990–present)
00:08:52 * Sgeo did not like being forced to see R movies
00:08:52 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, 12A is the only one where an adult changes things.
00:09:00 <pikhq> Moot point though, because no film is released NC-17.
00:09:02 <Sgeo> Or, being forced anywhere, for that matte
00:09:14 <alise> pikhq: Apart from porn?
00:09:31 <pikhq> alise: No. Rating is not mandatory.
00:09:33 <pikhq> If a film *were* to be NC-17, it will instead opt for being unrated.
00:09:48 <alise> Which will stop anyone from seeing it, right?
00:10:05 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: You forgot PG, PG-13.
00:10:12 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> The BBFC system is something like Uc, U, PG, 12A, 12, 15, 18, R18.
00:10:18 <alise> R18 is porn, isn't it?
00:10:21 <pikhq> The rating is entirely optional.
00:10:23 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, we don't have PG-13 in the UK, or I've never seen it.
00:10:27 <pikhq> It's done by the MPAA.
00:10:37 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Eh? I thought you meant the US systems.
00:11:25 <pikhq> Basically, G is the rating for something that even the most crazy "think of the children" type folk wouldn't be offended by.
00:11:52 <pikhq> PG is vaguely serious stuff, but for the most part quite appropriate for children.
00:11:53 <alise> pikhq: Well, your system is saner in one way (that all the ratings that are actually used can be overriden by a parent)
00:11:56 <pikhq> PG-13 is that with cussing.
00:12:00 <Sgeo> How did Avatar: The Last Airbender get the TV equivalent of G?
00:12:12 <pikhq> Sgeo: TV ratings are different.
00:12:12 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Is Gc really a rating in the true sense?
00:12:22 <alise> Gc is exactly the same as G, just saying "hey, children will like this".
00:12:25 <pikhq> R is that with more violence and room for nudity.
00:12:33 <alise> Sgeo: ...TV HAS RATINGS IN THE US???
00:12:41 <pikhq> alise: Entirely optional as well.
00:12:49 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, it basically does here, if you count the watershed.
00:12:50 <pikhq> alise: And literally only exists as suggestions.
00:12:56 <alise> The only people who give ratings for TV in the UK are ... some TV guides.
00:13:15 <pikhq> alise: Ironically, we *still* have no cursing on TV.
00:13:18 <alise> I think the watershed should just be abolished and the main channels won't show hugely edgy stuff in the kinds of slots children etc. will be watching anyway.
00:13:24 <Sgeo> pikhq, "ass" isn't a curse?
00:13:35 <alise> Neither is "damn" nor "hell".
00:13:47 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Well, not really.
00:13:50 <pikhq> Sgeo: Ass will still get bleeped.
00:13:55 <alise> pikhq: You're joking.
00:14:10 <Sgeo> Haven't watched much SG-1/SGA on the TV
00:14:16 <Sgeo> Just Hulu/YouTube
00:14:38 <pikhq> alise: As will "shit", "piss", "fuck", "cunt", "cocksucker", "motherfucker" and "tits".
00:14:39 <alise> pikhq: Okay, question: do the non-TV releases of shows have the cursing?
00:14:56 <alise> pikhq: I, too, understand references!
00:15:19 <alise> I cannot believe you can't say "tits" on US TV... hahahahahahaha you're crazy.
00:15:22 <pikhq> alise: ... I'm not even joking. I know I'm referring to a joke, but I'm not even joking.
00:15:23 <alise> Wait, can you say "cock" but not "cocksucker"?
00:15:40 <alise> As in, "You are a person who sucks cocks" is okay but not "You are a cocksucker"?
00:15:43 <coppro> pikhq: really? that stuff gets bleeped out for you?
00:15:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, "motherfucker" comes above "fuck" in the BBC's List Of Forbidden Words.
00:15:54 <pikhq> coppro: Yes. The US is motherfucking insane.
00:16:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Indeed, "motherfucker" comes above anything else in the List.
00:16:34 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Link me?
00:16:37 <alise> Also, in searching for it I found THIS: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7949077.stm
00:16:53 <coppro> we have a watershed, it's not as strong afterwards as in the UK, but we certainly can hear swear words
00:16:55 <Gregor> Oh fucky fuck fuck fuck!
00:17:06 <pikhq> Our game ratings are *also* absurd.
00:17:33 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: In what, the Sun? :-)
00:17:54 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, of course not. Possibly one of the Guardian's array of supplements.
00:18:22 <pikhq> eC, E, E10+, T, M, AO.
00:18:48 <pikhq> "Early Childhood", "Everyone", "Everyone 10+", "Teen", "Mature" (17+), "Adult Only"
00:18:50 <alise> AO is reserved exclusively for Anarchy Online.
00:19:18 <alise> Yeah, we use the European system now.
00:19:29 <Sgeo> I think I uninstalled AO recently, to make space
00:19:36 <pikhq> The suggested ages being: 3-10, 6+, 10+, 13+, 17+, 18+.
00:19:41 <Sgeo> Only tried it once, remember nothing :(
00:19:53 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: The ratings are *also* done by old crotchety bastards.
00:20:27 <coppro> very few games have AO ratings because they're basically impossible to secure retailers for
00:20:51 <pikhq> Persona 3. CERO B, ESRB M.
00:20:54 <coppro> and /me hates retailers who won't sell T or M games to people underage laiming it's the law
00:20:56 <alise> pikhq: I've got to know: what kind of 18+ material exists in today's society that the average (18-n)-year-old can't stand?
00:21:14 <alise> I find it really hard to believe that the average 16, 17 year old hasn't Already Seen That Shit. Probably even 15-year-old.
00:21:25 <alise> (Rhetorical question, naturally.)
00:21:32 <pikhq> Yes, something you guys call "appropriate for 12+" is on our highest-effective-rating.
00:21:38 <coppro> Phantom_Hoover: it's not to say they won't rate them AO - they have on occasion - but that the game manufacturers will then do everything to get them down
00:21:39 <pikhq> Erm. Sorry, that's Japan.
00:21:55 <pikhq> Same rating meaning, at least.
00:22:31 <pikhq> alise: Hmm. Well, there's probably some stuff that'd make them lose their lunch...
00:22:41 <pikhq> But said stuff would do the same to the same person at 18+, so.
00:23:05 <Sgeo> Why do I always find myself orienting to a more conservative mindset in these matters? Intellectually, I agree with you all, but still, it feels.. weird, the idea of swearing not necessarily being something that needs to be shielded from kids
00:23:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Does the US have the weird habit of viewing sex as worse than violence?
00:23:21 <alise> Sgeo: Outside of the US, swearing is not considered weird to expose to kids.
00:23:24 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Yes.
00:23:42 <alise> I'm pretty sure nobody would object to a parent saying "Shit!" due to a minor injury.
00:24:00 <coppro> There is a mildly-valid slippery-slope argument, but... ugh
00:24:04 <pikhq> Sgeo: Dude, kids hear cursing. It's really not a big deal. Unless you're 60+ or a neocon.
00:24:17 <Sgeo> pikhq, intellectually I agree, but...
00:24:21 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, OTOH, having something really offensive to say when you type an extra space in "rm -r * ~" is helpful.
00:24:27 <coppro> cursing is dumb anyways
00:24:28 <alise> Sgeo: Oh, get over your stupid US-based prejudices.
00:24:35 <coppro> (the notion of it, I mean)
00:24:55 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: R is the first rating where nudity or sex can be depicted at all on film ratings.
00:25:18 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: And this literally cannot be shown over the air.
00:25:21 <coppro> that's fine for teenagers
00:25:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Using it randomly leaves you with nothing to say when things go really badly wrong.
00:26:01 <pikhq> (and de facto can't be shown on cable TV)
00:26:02 <coppro> Phantom_Hoover: no, I mean that's fine for teenagers in the US
00:26:17 <pikhq> alise: People do object to this.
00:26:24 <coppro> Phantom_Hoover: the notion of a word to express strong discontent is fine
00:26:30 <alise> pikhq: Do object to?
00:26:34 <coppro> and it's why I don't swear often
00:26:44 <coppro> but the notion that certain words are inherently bad is ridiculous
00:26:46 <pikhq> alise: Cursing in front of a child. At all.
00:26:55 <alise> I swear a lot on the internet, barely ever in person.
00:27:04 <alise> In person they just seem ... unnerving, somehow.
00:27:08 <pikhq> I talk pretty much the same IRL as I do in person. So.
00:27:12 <Sgeo> I try to avoid swearing in public
00:27:18 <Sgeo> pikhq, no kidding?
00:27:19 <alise> Like, off-hand swearing puts me off-guard.
00:27:19 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Yes.
00:27:27 <alise> Sgeo: no kidding what?
00:27:32 <pikhq> Apparently the word "fuck" will corrupt a child's mind for all eternity.
00:27:39 <pikhq> As will seeing a nipple.
00:27:39 <Sgeo> pikhq> I talk pretty much the same IRL as I do in person. So.
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00:27:45 <alise> Sgeo: I'm pretty sure that's true.
00:27:58 <coppro> I'm more willing to swear online than in person
00:28:00 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Yes.
00:28:04 <Sgeo> alise, hense why I said no kidding
00:28:09 <coppro> but I certainly don't do it casually
00:28:13 <alise> Not everyone does.
00:28:16 <alise> People don't say "u" in person.
00:28:31 * Phantom_Hoover once saw someone on TV Tropes express surprise that "sod" wasn't bleeped.
00:28:33 <Sgeo> Read what it says again
00:29:15 <pikhq> ... Yes, I would actually have said "IRL" there if around people who would have known the acronym without even thinking of it.
00:30:02 <coppro> I've complained about RL graphics before
00:30:03 <pikhq> I would have totally made that slip IRL, though. :P
00:32:24 <pikhq> Anyways. TV ratings in the US are: Y, Y7, Y7-FV, G, PG, 14, MA. "Young", "Young, 7+", "Young, 7+, with Fantasy Violence", "General audience", "Parental Guidance suggested", "14+", "17+".
00:32:25 <Gregor> I say "if I recall correctly" ...
00:32:54 <Slereah> I think fantasy violence is hitting a pirate with a frying pan
00:33:19 <Slereah> Phantom_Hoover : That's why Klingons had pink blood in Star Trek VI
00:33:21 <pikhq> No, no, no. "Looney Tunes is clearly more scarring than Barney."
00:33:41 <Phantom_Hoover> I always wince slightly when people star out "hell" and "damn".
00:33:54 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: I consider "IIRC" as a logograph.
00:34:16 <Slereah> As a yuropian, I find weird the whole taboo on hell and damn
00:34:26 <Slereah> But well, our nations weren't founded by puritans
00:34:47 <Slereah> Although that probably doesn't mean much because Australia is even crazier in censorship
00:35:04 <pikhq> It should amuse you, though, to note that other than at the very low ranges of our ratings, violence is *perfectly* acceptable pretty much of the time.
00:35:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Slereah, yes. You would have thought that criminals would be cool about that.
00:35:12 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, so are you going to censor me censoring d*mn?
00:35:52 <Slereah> A decapitation is better than an asscrack
00:36:15 <Slereah> Phantom_Hoover : This isn't the 20's
00:36:17 <Sgeo> Eh, an episode of The Nanny had an asscrack in it iirc
00:36:31 <pikhq> Make the film a gigantic shootout? PG! Add a nipple? R! Add a suggestion of someone having sex outside of the missionary position? BANNED!
00:37:11 <Slereah> Which is strange, because babies see nipples all the time
00:37:26 <pikhq> Slereah: The US has breast-feeding as a rarity.
00:38:00 <Slereah> Lovecraft used diaresis :3
00:38:54 <alise> <Slereah> Phantom_Hoover : That's why Klingons had pink blood in Star Trek VI
00:39:24 <Slereah> In other episodes, it's red
00:39:35 <Slereah> But they had to change it for rating purpose, IIRC
00:39:38 <alise> <Slereah> Phantom_Hoover : This isn't the 20's <Slereah> No diaresis
00:39:50 <alise> <Sgeo> Eh, an episode of The Nanny had an asscrack in it iirc <-- And you'd know, because you watched VERY CLOSELY.
00:40:12 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, The Undiscovered Country was great.
00:40:15 <alise> <pikhq> Slereah: The US has breast-feeding as a rarity.
00:40:48 <alise> Not breastfeeding is considerd severely irresponsible in the UK.
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00:41:24 * coppro prepares to seal the IB
00:41:30 <alise> Has anyone seen Star Trek (2009)?
00:41:42 <alise> coppro: International Baccalaureate?
00:41:47 <coppro> alise: International Boundary
00:41:52 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: coppro: Is it any good>
00:41:55 <coppro> IE that big curved line
00:42:03 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Presumably you've seen other Trek series, though.
00:42:10 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Wha?!
00:42:15 <Slereah> The thing I most remember from Star Trek XI is
00:42:29 <coppro> I've seen all the ST movies except 6
00:42:32 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Prescription: The Next Generation. Yes, all of it. Well. You can skip everything with beardless Riker and Wesley.
00:42:33 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Not a taboo, but baby formula is the norm.
00:42:36 <Slereah> At one point, they send on a mission Sulu, Kirk, and some guy in a red suit
00:42:38 <alise> Now shoo, go watch it.
00:42:40 <alise> pikhq: That's crazy.
00:42:45 -!- relet has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
00:42:50 <pikhq> alise: Yes, it is.
00:42:51 <alise> Slereah: And he did, don't spoil it. :P
00:43:01 <Slereah> alise : It's really not a spoiler
00:43:07 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Virgin 1 show TNG, DS9 and Voyager every day... :P
00:43:14 <Slereah> Red suits die if they go on a mission
00:43:21 <alise> <coppro> I've seen all the ST movies except 6
00:43:27 <coppro> alise: I know that I should
00:43:30 <alise> (it's the only Trek film I've seen)
00:43:42 <Slereah> alise : Watch Star Trek 4 and 8
00:44:29 <alise> That's recorded on the Sky+ box downstairs.
00:44:33 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Only works if you add Galaxy Quest.
00:44:35 <coppro> do not watch 5 except under duress
00:44:35 <alise> http://qntm.org/odd
00:44:44 <alise> to get Nemesis and (2009) correct
00:44:53 <Slereah> Galaxy Quest is also p. good
00:44:54 <Sgeo> Which one's 5?
00:45:03 <alise> Sgeo: The Final Frontier
00:45:04 <Slereah> 5 is the one considered bad
00:45:13 <alise> Shatner wrote The Final Frontier.
00:45:20 <alise> Pretty sure Shatner is a fucking terrible writer.
00:45:20 <Phantom_Hoover> trekGoodness no = if no `mod` 2 == 1 then True else False
00:45:25 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: ...
00:45:31 <alise> trekGoodness = even
00:45:36 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: also:
00:45:37 <Slereah> Phantom_Hoover : what about 10
00:45:40 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: "if x then True else False"
00:45:52 <alise> Slereah: Galaxy Quest must be counted as #10
00:45:58 <Sgeo> I almost wrote code like that recently
00:46:07 <alise> then it's #11: Nemesis, bad, #12: (2009), good
00:46:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, I wrote in in like 5 seconds in a tiny single line IRC box.
00:46:45 <alise> It annoys me to no end that the HDTV is downstairs. >_>
00:46:56 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Hey, I wrote lists in cpp on an /iPhone/ in a mental institution.
00:47:01 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I cut no slack :P
00:47:08 <alise> On one line, too. In IRC.
00:47:15 <Sgeo> alise, well, you're God.
00:47:41 <alise> http://www.littlespikeyland.com/st_odd_even.php
00:47:43 <alise> "Therefore we can be 99% confident that the odd and even films represent two different classes of films, with the even films being the "better" of the two sets."
00:47:47 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Okay, Joybubbles.
00:47:50 <alise> Sgeo: I love having worshippers.
00:48:07 <alise> (totally cheating though, that analysis)
00:48:24 <alise> Okay, more Trek opinions needed:
00:48:30 <alise> Enterprise: good series, bad series?
00:49:07 <Sgeo> Aren't Wrath of Khan and Search for Spock connected? Or is it some other two movies that are connected?
00:49:19 <coppro> 2-4 are all direct sequels
00:49:32 <alise> LESS FILIMING MORE RATING SERIESING
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00:49:55 <Sgeo> alise, afaik, Enterprise is widely hated
00:50:00 <Sgeo> Never saw an episode myself though
00:50:25 <Slereah> I didn't care for the Wrath of Khan all that much
00:50:31 <alise> Deep Space Nine: good series, bad series?
00:50:45 <coppro> DS9 has good and bad in it
00:50:49 <Slereah> I mean, I love Ricardo Montalban
00:50:53 <coppro> not as wildly varying as voyager
00:51:07 <alise> That was a litmus test, I despise DS9. :P
00:51:16 <Slereah> You know what's terrible, though?
00:51:19 <alise> Okay, it's /saner/ than Voyager, but...
00:51:21 <alise> It's so fucking boring!
00:51:33 <Slereah> The animated series is all that's bad about Star Trek.
00:51:35 <alise> Slereah: http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20061122013747/memoryalpha/en/images/thumb/0/0c/KIRK_IS_A_JERK.jpg/292px-KIRK_IS_A_JERK.jpg
00:51:54 <Sgeo> Wasn't the holodeck introduced in the animated series?
00:52:01 <alise> The "rec room" was.
00:52:02 <coppro> on the whole, I'd say DS9 > VOY
00:52:10 <alise> But really, TNG is the one that really defined the holodeck.
00:52:24 <Slereah> The only thing that I regret is that M'ress was only in the animated series
00:52:29 <alise> coppro: If you have an attention span the length of ... something long.
00:52:48 <alise> Slereah: Furrrrryyyyy
00:52:53 <Sgeo> alise, broken link
00:52:57 <Slereah> http://mimg.ugo.com/200901/14973/mress.jpg
00:53:20 <alise> pikhq: Nonono, Voyager has great merit because it's fucking hilarious, always.
00:53:23 <alise> Even watching Threshold is great.
00:53:38 <pikhq> alise: I'm afraid I find myself groaning instead.
00:53:59 <pikhq> Slereah: The animated series had some good moments. And a lot of corny moments.
00:54:17 <Slereah> I think the most telling episode is the one where they go into a universe
00:54:21 <pikhq> Basically, though, it's TOS with worse production values.
00:54:29 <alise> I don't like TOS much.
00:54:29 <Slereah> And Spock has to do a spell
00:54:36 <alise> I don't think Roddenberry was a very good writer, I have to admit.
00:54:36 <pikhq> (if such a thing was possible)
00:54:51 <pikhq> alise: TOS, again, has its moments and a lot of corn.
00:54:56 <Slereah> My favorite episodes are the time travel episodes
00:54:59 <pikhq> TNG is absolutely amazing.
00:55:01 <Slereah> That's why I loved 4 and 8
00:55:08 <alise> There's a digital remaster thing of TOS airing on one of the CBS channels over here.
00:55:13 <Slereah> Well, TNG also had stupid episodes
00:55:16 <alise> You can't digitally remaster cardboard.
00:55:19 <alise> It just feels still and ... weird.
00:55:20 <Slereah> Like the one where they all become children
00:55:35 <pikhq> Yes, but TOS had more stupid episodes than good ones.
00:55:43 <alise> TNG is as good as Trek gets.
00:55:47 <pikhq> And the good ones are, themselves, filled with a lot of corn.
00:55:48 <alise> Which is "a bit above mediocre".
00:56:07 <alise> But, most sci-fi you see is "almost unbearable crap".
00:56:11 <alise> So TNG is very good.
00:56:44 * alise tries to find a nice Data quote to mark the mention of his name
00:57:07 <Slereah> "One is my name, and the other isn't."
00:57:20 * alise looks for a script
00:58:15 <Ilari> Lot of _anythng_ is crap.
00:58:36 <alise> O'Brien: We're all going to be burning the midnight oil on this one. / Data: That would be inadvisable. If you attempt to ignite a petroleum product on this ship at zero-hundred hours, it will activate the fire suppression system, which will seal off this entire compartment. / [...] / Data: Ah. Then "to burn the midnight oil" implies late work?
00:58:57 <alise> Data: This will require a completely new field induction subprocessor. It appears that we will be required to... ignite the midnight petroleum, sir.
00:59:24 <alise> Data would have been a much better character if the Trek writers had any sense of what an emotionless, rational, but still human-intelligence robot would be like :P
00:59:32 <alise> More tautological than I intended.
00:59:39 <alise> Ilari: Yes, but more bad sci-fi gets published/etc.
01:00:05 <Slereah> He would not have been as endearing if he actually had no emotions
01:00:34 <alise> Sometimes he's not very logical ... at all.
01:00:45 <alise> In fact come to think of it he's basically a Vulcan who talks weird.
01:01:26 <pikhq> And Vulcans themselves are not exactly logical.
01:01:27 <Slereah> Well, most of the TNG cast was just TOS with different actors
01:01:50 <pikhq> I consider their claims of this to just be religious assertations.
01:02:00 <alise> pikhq: One thing I've always been uneasy about: canon states they learned to "suppress" emotions.
01:02:05 <alise> So they still have all these emotions, they just ... bottle them up?
01:02:09 <alise> That's gotta be really unhealthy.
01:02:19 <alise> Slereah: Picard was a way better captain than Kirk though
01:02:26 <Slereah> That's why the Vulkan in Star Trek 5 was all crazy
01:02:35 <Slereah> He just lets out his emotions, and BAM!
01:02:46 <Slereah> Fifty years of bottled emotions come out
01:02:52 <alise> pikhq: BTW, the quality of that cleaned-up TNG rip is pretty good.
01:03:02 <alise> pikhq: It's still... very soft, you know, but that's just how it was filmed.
01:03:10 <alise> No artifacts or anything.
01:03:55 <alise> Anyway, TNG from season 2 onwards is good. Preferably without Wesley. Definitely not anywhere where Wesley saves the day.
01:04:13 <Slereah> With his faggy rainbow sweater
01:04:27 <alise> Even Wil Wheaton hated Wesley.
01:04:33 <Sgeo> I liked The Game
01:04:45 <alise> ^ Example of the correct use of profanity.
01:04:46 <Sgeo> But then again, I haven't seen that many Wesley saves the day eps, so
01:05:20 <Sgeo> Well, thank you very much
01:05:28 <pikhq> Wesley was by far the worse character on TNG.
01:05:49 <Sgeo> Didn't Wesley do something that got someone killed?
01:05:59 <pikhq> God damned Gene Wesley Roddenberry.
01:06:07 <alise> Yeah: being that annoying can kill.
01:06:19 <alise> Fun fact: I thought Chekov was French.
01:06:32 <alise> He was such a smooth Frenchman, too, right up until I realised his name was "Chekov".
01:06:56 <pikhq> Well, it's not like they could actually get a *Russian* to do the role.
01:07:01 <pikhq> I mean, Cold War and all.
01:07:13 <Slereah> But that was the point of Star Trek :o
01:07:22 <Slereah> To present a perfect future where everyone is at peace
01:07:50 <alise> Heh, an American played Chekov in (2009), too.
01:07:50 <Sgeo> Don't mind if I do!
01:08:25 <pikhq> 'Some of Wesley's The Wesley-ness is accidental: Six scripts had been drafted for the "Wesley saves the day" plot, with the intention that the best elements of each would be combined to make one character-focus episode on Wesley — none of them were especially good, but it was hoped that there would be enough good material between them to make a single episode. A writer's strike dried up the supply of scripts for the first season, so all six d
01:08:27 <alise> Sgeo: Which aliens are we talkking about here?
01:08:40 <alise> pikhq: "all six d--" but I get the jist. Ha.
01:09:45 <pikhq> '[...] so all six drafts were completed and produced, at which point Wesley's characterization was firmly entrenched. '
01:10:33 <Sgeo> So wouldn't that make that badness just a season 1 thing?
01:10:55 <alise> No, because Wesley continued being Wesley until he left.
01:12:09 <pikhq> No, that just made Season 1 all the worse.
01:13:04 <alise> Even non-Wesley, bearded-Riker episodes can be really bad. e.g. Sub Rosa.
01:14:53 <pikhq> Yeah, but a Wesley episode is instabad. As is babyface Riker.
01:15:18 <alise> Maybe eliminating Deanna-focused episodes would trim it down to almost universally good.
01:16:06 <pikhq> The character who had *no reason to exist*.
01:16:12 <alise> Sub Rosa was Troi-focused, for instance.
01:16:34 <pikhq> Why the hell would you need a *counselor* on the bridge at all times?
01:17:02 <alise> Picard: Computer, what day is it?
01:17:02 <alise> Computer: The first day of the rest of your life.
01:17:02 <alise> Picard: GRRRRR....
01:17:02 <alise> Troi: It's Stardate 47988, Captain.
01:17:02 <alise> Picard: *Thank* you, Counsellor. At last your genius for stating the obvious has come in useful.
01:17:03 <alise> --Five-Minute "All Good Things..."
01:17:06 <pikhq> And she didn't even... Counsel.
01:17:25 <alise> (Note: Worf is the one who actually says it in the episode. :P)
01:18:22 <alise> [[Picard: Yes... yes, of course. It's all coming back now. I'm readjusting to this time --
01:18:22 <alise> Picard: -- period. Dammit!
01:18:23 <alise> Yar: I'm sorry, sir, I'm afraid I don't understand. Are you swearing about punctuation or feminine problems?
01:18:23 <alise> Picard: Tasha! You're alive!
01:18:23 <alise> Yar: Um... that's correct, sir.
01:18:24 <alise> Picard: At last. I've always wanted to tell you how much I miss --
01:18:26 <alise> Picard: -- your presence on the bridge.
01:18:30 <alise> Troi: It is? Really? Oh, Captain, you remembered my birthday! I'll go get it right away!
01:18:32 <alise> Picard: This had better be the last time we do that gag.]]
01:18:34 <alise> Oh, dammit, I'll end up quoting the entire thing again if I don't stop.
01:18:36 <alise> Here: http://www.fiveminute.net/nextgen/fiver.php?ep=allgoodthings
01:18:42 <alise> It's more like twenty-minute "All Good Things...", though.
01:18:49 <Sgeo> Wasn't she useful in Encounter at Farpoint?
01:18:58 <Sgeo> [Note: I've only seen a part of that ep]
01:19:07 <pikhq> Whenever counselling was done in TNG, it was *Guinan*...
01:19:12 <alise> "-- your presence on the bridge" -> "your present's on the bridge" has to be the cheesiest thing I've ever seen.
01:19:28 <Sgeo> alise, I didn't even notice that >.>
01:19:33 <alise> It took me a while.
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01:20:04 <pikhq> Sgeo: You may forget all parts of Encounter at Farpoint which did not have Q.
01:20:15 <alise> Dammit Libertine's Q is hot.
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01:25:41 <alise> Fun fact: "Te'arl grayaucht" means "[Colour of tea] bitter water" in Picardian.
01:26:12 <alise> pikhq: Is "bloody" bleeped on US TV?
01:27:16 <Sgeo> No, afaik, but I've never heard it used
01:27:23 <Sgeo> It's a very British word
01:27:40 <alise> Indeed; Scotty says it in an episode of TNG, at least, which was broadcast on US TV, obviously.
01:27:58 <alise> Bloody and naff are the greatest British English-only words there are.
01:28:46 <Sgeo> It occurs to be that bloody not used in that context isn't particularly British
01:29:21 <alise> Well, that meaning.
01:34:59 <Gregor> alise: I actually use "bloody" all the time.
01:35:28 <Gregor> I don't even know what "naff" means though, so *eh*
01:35:42 <alise> Naff is ... rubbish, in a way, but more British.
01:35:59 <alise> Like "supremely mediocre" if it was an active badness rather than a passive... middleness.
01:36:03 <Gregor> "Rubbish" is already pretty British.
01:36:11 <alise> Yes, but even more British.
01:36:45 <alise> If you look at a new language that's almost exactly like Python or whatever, just cleaned up slightly and with some boring new features, and it makes you go "bleh" and "meh" and "feh" when looking at it... if it's not terrible, it's naff.
01:36:49 <Gregor> Apparently in (certain parts of) Canada they use "litter" to mean what Americans mean when they say "garbage" and what Brits mean when they say "rubbish", rather than what either of us mean when we say "litter".
01:37:08 <alise> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/naff#Adjective
01:40:08 * Sgeo knows 1 TV show that alise has never heard of
01:40:42 <alise> Oh, Pinky and the Brain.
01:40:49 <alise> I just didn't recognise the reference. Yes, of course I know of Pinky and the Brain.
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02:08:49 <Sgeo> alise subscribe: Chat do: [ :ann | self say: ann text ].
02:28:02 <alise> pikhq: In contrast to the US' cursing conservatism, the word "bollocks" was deemed to be acceptable in "Never Mind the Bollocks, Here's the Sex Pistols".
02:28:07 <alise> (in the UK, of course)
02:30:24 <Gregor> "Bollocks" is acceptable on TV at any time here :P
02:30:29 <Gregor> Since it's, like, not even a word here.
02:31:20 <alise> It's quite offensive here.
02:31:40 <alise> "logorrhoea" is actually a term, AWESOME
02:35:18 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scared_Straight! ;; "fuck" broadcast on US TV in 1978
02:42:09 <pikhq> alise: I've seen "bloody" rated Y.
02:42:49 <pikhq> And I do use "bloody".
02:43:00 <pikhq> I was aware of "naff" but never used it myself.
02:43:26 <alise> <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scared_Straight! ;; "fuck" broadcast on US TV in 1978
02:43:37 <pikhq> Predates FCC obscenity rules!
02:43:40 <calamari> why does floating point use a binary exponent? why not use something like 10 or 16?
02:43:48 <alise> pikhq: But Carlin said you couldn't say "fuck" beforehand!
02:43:53 <alise> calamari: cuz computers use binary.
02:44:09 <calamari> alise: duh.. not really an answer
02:44:13 <pikhq> Yes. Sometime after he made that joke, *they decided to use that list*.
02:44:32 <oerjan> calamari: well 16 is equivalent to binary for this purpose
02:44:36 * Sgeo still doesn't know the recommended way to do callback stuff in Squeak
02:44:47 <calamari> oerjan: not really.. 16 gives a larger range
02:45:04 <pikhq> When he had started making that joke, there were no country-wide regulations on it...
02:45:30 <pikhq> And he was sometimes arrested *for giving that joke*...
02:45:31 <oerjan> calamari: but you'd get less precision for numbers of the form 1. ... * 16^n
02:46:00 <alise> i suggest we use base 1 for the exponent
02:46:04 <alise> that's the best of all worlds, really
02:46:19 <pikhq> alise: *Oh god*. The FCC settled on that list because Carlin's routine was put on the radio and a *single person* was offended that his son heard such filth.
02:47:13 <Sgeo> Single person that complained, you mean
02:48:04 <pikhq> Anyways. Because of this mess, all live broadcasts in the US are actually on a delay so they can bleep.
02:48:29 <pikhq> (ever since the nipple-slip and Bono saying "fuck" on live TV...)
02:49:02 <oerjan> calamari: the mantissa would have to be 1 <= m < 16, if you then have a fixed number of bits after the point then the higher numbers would have less precision compared to in binary.
02:49:17 <Sgeo> coppro becomeForward: nil.
02:50:09 <calamari> oerjan: I guess I'm confused then
02:50:33 <alise> pikhq: Last Christmas, when the whole "X-Factor (music reality show thing here) contestant winner" vs "really old Rage Against the Machine single" battle for the Christmas #1 space on the charts was ongoing (this actually happened, I am not shitting you: Rage Against the Machine won!), Rage Against the Machine were asked to play the song live on radio; it ends with a succession of lines that use the word "fuck" rather a lot. This was in the day time; they h
02:50:33 <alise> ad been asked ... not to include that part. They included it. All that happened was a fadeout and the presenters going "Bad band! Bad!". What would the reaction in the US be? Nuclear fallout?
02:50:38 <calamari> I was trying to change floating point so that I could have 8 digits of decimal precision in 32 bits
02:51:21 <calamari> I wasn't able to do it until I change it from 2^x to 10^x
02:51:33 * Sgeo attempts assassination of everyone in #squeak
02:51:43 <pikhq> alise: Fines, fines, more fines, and a possible loss of broadcasting license.
02:51:53 <pikhq> Also, in the news, nuclear fallout.
02:51:58 <Sgeo> Actually, I may have killed everyone on IRC
02:52:21 <pikhq> We fucking remember someone's nipple being shown on TV for a few seconds, for crissake...
02:52:50 <Sgeo> Stupid nipple decoration thingy
02:53:32 <calamari> anyhow.. it seems like I can leave 28 bits for the number and 4 bits for placing the decimal point, and I should be able to represent positive and negative numbers from .00000001 to 99999999.
02:53:39 <oerjan> calamari: well 10^x doesn't really make sense unless you use decimal for the mantissa part too
02:54:51 <pikhq> alise: Oh, yes, the censorship also applies to radio.
02:55:16 <pikhq> alise: Music on the radio ends up either having the cursing removed from the voice track in the for-radio mix or a bleep.
02:56:23 <calamari> oerjan: I guess that could be 1 bit for sign, 4 bits for decimal place, 27 bits for number. how can I translate that into a 2^x?
02:56:42 <alise> * Sgeo attempts assassination of everyone in #squeak <-- What did they do this time?
02:56:45 <calamari> with only 4 bits of 2^x, I can't make big numbers
02:56:50 <Sgeo> alise, nothing
02:56:57 <Sgeo> Except assist me
02:57:07 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> Chatter allInstancesDo: [ :chatter | chatter becomeForward: nil ].
02:57:07 <Sgeo> <RandalSchwartz> best to do "String new" just in case become: or becomeForward: is two-way
02:57:33 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randal_L._Schwartz
02:57:59 <alise> popularised "Just another Perl hacker,", invented the Schwartzian transform
02:58:22 <alise> co-author of the camel book, Programming Perl
02:58:27 <alise> (and now Squeaker ofc)
02:58:28 * oerjan doesn't really know floating point beyond that it's m*2^x with presumably fixed no. of bits for each of m and x
02:58:50 <alise> oerjan: that's it, basically
02:59:03 <pikhq> I cannot even fathom why Comedy Central does the bleeping.
02:59:27 <pikhq> (keep in mind they air South Park. Which used to have the record for instances of fuck per minute.)
02:59:36 <Sgeo> It hits the fan?
03:00:01 <Sgeo> I think they used the word "shit" either 0 or 1 times in that ep. I think
03:00:05 <Sgeo> Or maybe a lot
03:00:07 <Sgeo> I have no idea
03:00:36 <Sgeo> alise, well, that does exclude 2 or 3
03:00:43 <pikhq> Still has record for instances of fuck in an animated film.
03:01:03 <pikhq> (it lost the record for total to a documentary on the word.)
03:01:51 <Sgeo> !smalltalk Transcript show: 'Hi!'.
03:01:56 <pikhq> Mmkay. "It Hits The Fan" had 162 instances of shit.
03:02:01 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
03:02:11 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
03:02:11 <pikhq> A counter runs in the episode.
03:02:14 <oerjan> calamari: well there _should_ be room in there, somehow :D
03:02:43 <calamari> oerjan: yeah somehow the 2^x wastes it whereas my non-standard representation fits it
03:02:53 <coppro> Sgeo: maybe you didn't notice because it was bleeped?
03:03:05 <Sgeo> coppro, I never saw the ep
03:03:18 <oerjan> calamari: i suspect those 8-digit calculators use decimal internally, anyway
03:03:24 <Sgeo> Just vaguely knew the name, and that it was related to the word "shit"
03:03:30 <Sgeo> And something about a subversion?
03:03:56 <alise> Okay, what about this floating point structure:
03:04:02 <alise> some of the floating point is dedicated to /specifying the base/
03:04:06 <alise> i.e. we have (mantissa, base, exponent)
03:04:18 <alise> presumably base is quite small, mantissa is quite big, and exponent is medium
03:04:25 <alise> calamari: yeah /that/ would be awesome :D
03:04:50 <alise> actually ... that sounds like a good idea
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03:04:56 <alise> Quick, someone tell me why it sucks.
03:05:16 <oerjan> well until you try to do arithmetic with two numbers of different bases
03:05:23 <calamari> oerjan: well there is a decimal32 sstandard but it only gives 7 digits of precision
03:05:28 <alise> calamari: use hackego for python
03:05:37 <coppro> alise: how is it stored? Binary Coded BASEN?
03:05:46 <alise> coppro: just binary
03:05:56 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
03:06:01 <alise> coppro: we store (m,b,e) for m * b^e in binary
03:06:19 <coppro> don't forget a sign bit
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03:06:38 <alise> (+-,s,b,e) for +-(m * b^e)
03:07:21 <oerjan> !haskell 2^32 / (9*2*10^8)
03:07:23 <alise> which leaves 7b for exponent
03:08:05 * Sgeo wonders if he should try VisualWorks
03:08:17 <oerjan> calamari: there is so little extra room that you need to pack tightly, a decimal standard would probably use some way that made it easy to get at the decimal digits, using too much room
03:08:27 <alise> so for 64-bit, we have s:48.77b; taking that as 48, we have 15b left for the exponent
03:08:58 <alise> now let's say we take away 6 bits from the exponent, leaving there be 9b for the exponent
03:09:03 <alise> these 6 bits are the base
03:09:21 <oerjan> say if it uses 4 bits per digit, then you get just 8 and 1 is probably for exponent
03:09:54 <calamari> oerjan: yeah I figured out for an old 8 digit calculator screen it can represent 1255333573 different values, requiring 30.2254, or 31 bits
03:10:20 <calamari> that's with the negative sign eating a digit
03:10:21 <alise> that gives us (2^48 - 1) * 61^511 maximum
03:10:30 <alise> oh wait the exponent is signed
03:10:37 <alise> well, whatever, it's a big number
03:10:45 <alise> oerjan: any flaws to this representation? apart from difficult arithmetic :P
03:11:24 <oerjan> alise: well there will probably be some numbers with multiple representations
03:12:49 <Sgeo> Apparently, it will take about an hour for VW to install
03:13:14 <Sgeo> When I think "more professional than Squeak/Pharo", I was kind of hoping that that wouldn't include the customary IDE slowness
03:13:21 <Sgeo> And install slowness
03:13:27 <alise> Sgeo: VisualWorks sucks.
03:13:35 <alise> Pharo is professional enough.
03:13:40 <Sgeo> alise, besides being proprietary, howso?
03:14:04 <Sgeo> They came up with the Announcements framework, which I _will_ be using in my AW SDK bindings
03:15:44 <Sgeo> Well, we seem to have done 20min in the space of 2min
03:15:47 <Sgeo> So that's a good sign
03:19:22 <oerjan> no, that's a sign of bad time dilation. we might be falling into a black hole!
03:23:20 <Sgeo> EsotericChannel subscribe: Chat do: [:ann | ann chatter becomeForward: nil ]. "MUAHAHAHA! ANYONE SPEAKS, THEY DIE!"
03:24:30 <oerjan> what are you talAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaa
03:28:29 <Sgeo> It's now stuck at 8 sec remaining
03:38:53 <Warrigal> Does anyone here play Battle for Wesnoth? My friend and I would like to find a group to play in.
03:44:06 <Sgeo> I tried it once or twice, I think
03:44:17 <Sgeo> Love the music, esp. The Dangerous Symphony
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03:46:46 <alise> Warrigal: Well ... AnMaster.
03:46:57 <alise> Warrigal: So yeah, nobody.
03:47:11 <Warrigal> Sgeo: I don't suppose you're up for a game right now?
03:47:32 <Sgeo> Need to eat and sleep soon
03:53:17 <calamari> Gregor: in case you hasn't already found this http://code.google.com/p/android-scripting/
03:53:51 <Gregor> Sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet.
04:10:36 <alise> How does one configure the web browser XChat opens links in?
04:12:57 <Sgeo> Can Hackiki do Smalltalk?
04:13:36 <alise> Can my toaster do Smalltalk????
04:14:06 <Sgeo> (Toaster new) insert: myToast; toast.
04:14:25 <Sgeo> Hmm, maybe that should be add:
04:14:46 <alise> I'm glad Sgeo is finally growing taste in languages. It's like watching a wittle baby gwow up! >_>
04:14:56 <alise> Next you'll discover Lisp.
04:15:56 <Sgeo> Lisp is more implementation-dependent, and there are so many, than Smalltalk!
04:17:06 <Gregor> Sgeo: Hackiki can do anything the system can do, however, most Smalltalk environment aren't exactly known for integrating well into their environment. GNU Smalltalk is the exception.
04:17:14 <alise> And GNU Smalltalk sucks.
04:17:23 <alise> Sgeo: Smalltalk is very implementation-dependent.
04:17:26 <alise> Less so now, but still pretty dependent.
04:17:32 <alise> Especially considering EVERYTHING IS INSIDE A VM IMAGE.
04:17:39 <alise> What's that you say? File outs? Hahahaha...
04:17:54 <alise> Monticello is gaining support for more systems, though, I gather.
04:18:02 <Sgeo> Isn't the format for those defined by ANSI Smalltalk?
04:18:20 <alise> For fileouts? Yes.
04:18:27 <alise> Barely "portability", though, more like an export format.
04:18:49 <Sgeo> I don't see how Monticello would help the portability issue, though :/
04:19:16 <Sgeo> Make it easier to bring incompatible code into various implementations?
04:19:53 <alise> Allow collaboration between people using different implementations.
04:20:05 <alise> That's assuming all the system classes are the same, which isn't such a reasonable assumption, but is getting better.
04:20:23 <alise> More to the point, though, nobody uses anything but VisualWorks and Squeak/Pharo, and nobody doing open-source stuff uses VisualWorks.
04:20:39 <alise> So it's not such a huge problem, considering the Smalltalk community has quite a bit of inertia (Pharo is long overdue) so it's unlikely to change.
04:20:57 <alise> You can trace Squeak's lineage directly back to Smalltalk-80.
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04:24:51 <Sgeo> How much of a chance do you think I have of getting other AW people to start using Smalltalk when I showcase the advantages?
04:25:50 <alise> They sound hideously stupid, so 0.
04:25:56 <alise> Especially since it's so ... different.
04:26:06 <alise> "It looks like a kid made it, and how do I save to a file?"
04:26:14 <alise> "What is this browser thing? Where do I type class {?"
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04:26:59 <Sgeo> alise, you never met another AW SDK programmer
04:28:21 <pikhq> Though I don't *use* it much, I must admit that it has much awesome.
04:28:45 * Sgeo still needs to get a grip on thisContext
04:29:02 <pikhq> Pity it almost inherently is its own completely seperate environment.
04:29:15 <Sgeo> pikhq, that's what makes it so fun!
04:29:42 <pikhq> Of course, this just means that Smalltalk should run on bare hardware.
04:29:59 <Sgeo> Hmm. Doesn't static typing usually enable IDEs to be much smarter?
04:30:09 <Sgeo> Yet Smalltalks are often known for their IDEness
04:31:26 <pikhq> You know what makes for a great IDE? Being able to edit everything at runtime.
04:32:12 <alise> <pikhq> Of course, this just means that Smalltalk should run on bare hardware.
04:32:14 <alise> as it did originally
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04:53:04 <pikhq> Hmm. Should I go back to horrifying the Europeans?
04:53:20 <pikhq> http://www.allamericanpatriots.com/files/images/prison-bunk.jpg
04:53:25 <Sgeo> We use INCHes here
04:53:26 <pikhq> American prison cell.
04:54:05 <alise> http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1000000/images/_1004547_uk_cell150.jpg
04:54:22 <pikhq> http://sydwalker.info/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/swedish_prison_cell-300x203.jpg
04:54:23 <alise> pikhq: http://www.jabulela.com/files/media/norwegian-prison4.jpg Norwegian prison cell.
04:54:43 <pikhq> Gotta love Scandinavia.
04:54:54 <alise> i'm moving to sweden then stealing tons of shit
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05:16:21 <alise> pikhq: So how come movies get to say "fuck"?
05:17:37 <coppro> alise: They aren't controlled by broadcast regulations
05:17:44 <alise> neither is cable tv
05:17:49 <alise> yet they still bleep curses
05:18:25 <coppro> most cable stations are controlled by big networks, as I understand it
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05:21:02 <pikhq> alise: Hysterical raisins.
05:22:29 <Sgeo> I want Erlang-style concurrency without weird receive{} blocks
05:22:46 <Sgeo> I have found no information on the Actor model in Smalltalk
05:22:55 <pikhq> Check the Haskell FAQ on lambdabot.
05:23:18 <Sgeo> I know how the Actor model works in general... I think
05:24:24 <alise> Qu Qu Qu Qu Qu Q Q Q Q Qu Qu Qu Qu
05:24:27 <alise> pikhq: Why would that help him?
05:24:37 <pikhq> alise: Because Haskell Can Do That
05:25:00 <alise> Qu Qu Qu Qu Qu Qu “Indeed," said the Ambassador, “‘Qu’ does look appealing in this typeface.”
05:26:23 <coppro> Sgeo: Why don't you want receive blocks?
05:29:09 <Sgeo> I think encouraging someone to learn Smalltalk at the same time I'm teaching him C# might be a bad idea
05:30:07 <Sgeo> Given select: = Where(), collect: = Select()
05:37:00 <alise> You're not teaching him. (Probably. Unless you're a natural-born teacher, which I'm not sure exists.)
05:43:01 <alise> http://www.win.tue.nl/~gwoegi/P-versus-NP/Deolalikar.pdf Serious attempt at P!=NP proof by a respected computer scientist at HP that has withstood some criticism so far, although nobody knows anything about whether it works or not, of course.
05:43:06 <alise> We need people here to look over it :-)
05:43:46 <Sgeo> http://forums.activeworlds.com/showthread.php?p=128618#post128618
05:44:22 <alise> do: [ :ann | myInstance say: (ann name), ': ', (ann message).].
05:44:35 <alise> remove the ()s in the ,s
05:44:35 <pikhq> alise: I've looked at it, though not much.
05:44:46 <alise> do: [ :ann | myInstance say: ann name, ': ', ann message ].
05:44:56 <alise> pikhq: Any opinions?
05:45:06 <Sgeo> alise, these people have probably never seen Smalltalk before
05:45:18 <alise> Just do it, I'm improving your Smalltalk.
05:45:22 <Sgeo> Although that might be an argument for making it look cleaner
05:45:28 <Sgeo> And I know the precedent rules
05:46:15 <alise> It's about style, now do it >_>
05:46:20 <alise> It hurts my eyes as-is :P
05:47:08 <Sgeo> It's ok to have a constructor not use new, right?
05:47:28 <alise> Sgeo: It's stylistic not to.
05:47:37 <pikhq> Never thought an even plausible proof of that would float around. :P
05:47:44 <alise> "File named: ...", for instance, would be conventional.
05:47:53 <alise> Or perhaps "File withName: ...", if you're creating a file and not just reading it from disk.
05:50:57 <Sgeo> I showed you a screenshot of MagsBot once
05:52:07 <alise> do: [ :ann | myInstance say: ann name, ': ', ann message].
05:52:13 <alise> either remove the spaces from the whole [...] block (preferable)
05:52:15 <alise> or put a space after message
05:52:19 <alise> do: [:ann | myInstance say: ann name, ': ', ann message].
05:52:22 <alise> normally no spaces are added.
05:52:26 <alise> And YES this is important :|
05:53:16 <Sgeo> Maybe I should add some comments
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05:58:17 <Sgeo> Or maybe I should eat my pizza and go to bed
05:59:50 <Sgeo> My sample completely forgets everything required by the AW SDK
06:00:59 <alise> Fix it and fix it according to my suggestions :P
06:01:02 <alise> Anyway, goodnight.
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06:57:36 <coppro> poll: what animal will Ubuntu 11.04 be?
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07:04:03 <fizzie> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DevelopmentCodeNames has that list of suggestions; I don't think they've picked one yet?
07:05:09 <fizzie> "Nagging Nag if more pop-up reminders are added to the desktop" -- I smell some bitterness.
07:07:15 <fizzie> For some reason there seems to be quite many Naughty N's suggested.
07:07:25 <fizzie> "Naughty Nightelf -- just think about the artwork we could make"
07:07:48 <fizzie> I'm sure that'd promote Linux-on-desktop well.
07:08:43 <fizzie> Narwhal seems like a popular animal, too.
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08:34:47 <ais523> hmm, http://www.win.tue.nl/~gwoegi/P-versus-NP.htm is interesting
08:34:54 <ais523> it's a list of proofs of P=NP, and of P!=NP
08:35:27 <ais523> also, proofs that it's undecidable
08:35:29 <ais523> and a few other things
08:35:45 <coppro> it's gutsy that the guy published it publicly without perr review
08:36:28 <ais523> <Hubert Chen> "Proof by contradiction. Assume P=NP. Let y be a proof that P=NP. The proof y can be verified in polynomial time by a competent computer scientist, the existence of which we assert. However, since P=NP, the proof y can be generated in polynomial time by such computer scientists. Since this generation has not yet occurred (despite attempts by such computer scientists to produce a proof), we have a contradiction."
08:42:43 <ais523> perhaps it just has a really large constant factor?
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10:25:19 <GreaseMonkey> i left it way too late to chip in but i have a friend who thinks he may have an O(n^4) algorithm for turning NP into P
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10:28:17 <fizzie> And "probably wrong" is very close to "provably wrong"; it has a Levenshtein distance of just one.
10:28:24 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
10:28:55 <ais523> hmm, that gives a Levenshtein-1 proof of P!=NP, doesn't it?
10:34:46 <GreaseMonkey> [Equal]: In 2005, Dr. Joachim Mertz proved P=NP. His main contribution is a linear programming formulation of the TSP with O(n^5) variables and O(n^4) constraints. <-- weird...
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11:34:43 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: i wish i knew where fix point combinators? :) fnord/ fnord/ babylonian cuneiform was just added in unicode 5.0, so few major lisps? ( networking and concurrency, despite my usual polemics i still think it's kind of hard
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12:12:47 <Sgeo> Trying to trigger myndzi
12:13:09 <Sgeo> Also being frustrated at AW SDK's clinically insane model for callbacks
12:14:32 <Sgeo> http://wiki.activeworlds.com/index.php?title=SDK_Asynchronous_Operation
12:15:20 <Sgeo> Note that when you call a blocking function synchroneously, it can trigger events and callbacks
12:15:36 <Sgeo> I wish I were joking
12:16:08 <Sgeo> I'm planning to use a Monitor to make the pain go away
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12:22:11 <Sgeo> I just remembered that some "events" in the AW SDK are actually callbacks, although not termed such
12:29:37 <fizzie> Sgeo: Are you sure your name isn't just too short?
12:33:04 <oerjan> <fizzie> Narwhal seems like a popular animal, too.
12:33:14 <oerjan> duh, everyone from reddit would suggest that
12:33:57 <oerjan> <coppro> it's gutsy that the guy published it publicly without perr review
12:34:38 <oerjan> it seems likely he didn't mean to, he was just sending it to other researchers to look through but the email got seriously out of hand
12:35:51 <oerjan> and someone _else_ put it on the web iiuc
12:39:05 * oerjan saw at least one reddit comment by someone who _had_ read it and was worried about one particular point in the proof, something claimed to be polynomial in size
12:39:27 <fizzie> Like someone said yesterday, in the context of embarrassing pictures: "don't worry: what happens on the internet, stays on the internet".
12:43:10 <fizzie> oerjan: Not cool, not funny, not a good comic?
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12:45:54 <fruitbag`> Would it be possible to device a quicksort algorithm in Brainfuck?
12:46:12 <oerjan> as long as you don't interpret "quick" too literally :D
12:47:07 <Phantom_Hoover> fruitbag`, the complete lack of anything approaching a function call would be a significant barrier.
12:47:23 <oerjan> hm, given the cost of moving around in brainfuck, might not bubble sort really be optimal for it?
12:48:27 <oerjan> well i mean asymptotically
12:48:44 <ais523> actually, I don't think quicksort would be too difficult in BF
12:48:47 <oerjan> since you have to move across things, you can just as well swap while you're doing it
12:51:42 * oerjan didn't notice anything particularly good today, although he always gives the mad scientists at least 50%
12:56:12 <fizzie> mooz has written a pretty nice quicksort in Befunge-93; even if it's a bit limited due to the 80x25 playfield. Admittedly that is a far more expressive and less-painful-to-write language.
12:57:19 <fizzie> You can find it nicely syntax-highlighted at http://web.archive.org/web/20061205193036/kotisivu.mtv3.fi/quux/qsort.html courtesy of archive.org.
12:59:40 <fizzie> I guess it is Funge98-compatible in the sense that it can sort more data in a system like that.
13:03:22 <Sgeo> Dear Monitor: FUCK YOU
13:04:01 <fruitbag`> So, how would I do an equivalent to a for loop in BF?
13:04:25 <Phantom_Hoover> fruitbag`, set a cell as a counter, then decrement in []s.
13:05:39 <fizzie> Counting down to 0 is usually easier, though.
13:06:21 * Sgeo curses at http://pastebin.com/LDyEkQpa
13:06:31 <fizzie> (Easier than up, with a test at the end, I mean.)
13:09:30 <Phantom_Hoover> fruitbag`, there are a few high-level to BF compilers, but they're underdeveloped.
13:11:17 <Sgeo> Anyone want to help me?
13:14:59 <fruitbag`> Befunge-93 is such a queer language
13:18:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Including ones that the inventors themselves don't understand.
13:18:57 <ais523> is that a Feather reference?
13:21:37 <fizzie> I am tempted to shamelessly self-advertise the befunge-bot to yet another new victim.
13:21:51 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: it's your only potential competitor and there's no javascript or anything. they make
13:22:05 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
13:22:26 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Good, now I don't have to do that myself.
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13:22:39 <fizzie> (And it is true what e says: there's no javascript or anything.)
13:33:20 <fruitbag`> The statement '[-]' decrements the value at a point until zero, right?
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13:36:55 <Sgeo> Monitor is reentrant. Apparently I want a non-reentrant Monitor
13:41:32 * Sgeo decides that Phantom_Hoover is as sleep deprived as I am
13:42:23 <Sgeo> How, exactly, is that supposed to go back to the old cell to copy more than 1?
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14:17:59 <fruitbag> Something came up and I was AFK
14:18:28 <fruitbag> Alright, so you raised the question of moving a byte from one cell to another
14:18:36 <fruitbag> What is the general algorithm?
14:20:29 <fruitbag> - was decrement that pointer or memory cell?
14:20:42 <fruitbag> That is, decrement contents or pointer?
14:21:21 <fruitbag> What I meant was the region being pointed
14:25:01 <fizzie> It is a bit annoying that it kills the old value, though. Actually copying a cell tends to involve something uglier like [>+>+<<-]>>[<<+>>-] and need a spare cell there.
14:26:25 <fruitbag> Bascially, we are decrementing the contents from one cell and incrementing by the same amount in another
14:29:07 <fruitbag> Suppse that I wanted to traverse eight consequtive cells...
14:29:40 <fizzie> Another sometimes useful construction is >[-]+<[>-<]>[xxx-]<; that does xxx if current cell (at start) is zero; it's basically [xxx[-]] except the test is negated.
14:30:22 <fizzie> Whoops, that [>-<] should be [>-<[-]] there.
14:30:59 <fizzie> It also looks like an angry horizontal-smiley.
14:31:54 <fizzie> (Away; getting from work to home now.)
14:39:35 <fruitbag> Alright, so let me get this straight....
14:42:01 <fruitbag> But, man -- wouldn't that decrememnt the contents of each consequtive cell by one?
14:44:34 <Phantom_Hoover> fruitbag, are you talking about fizzie's construction?
14:46:37 <Phantom_Hoover> It sets the cell being tested to 0 and the next one to 0 or 1; the xxx can have its own side-effects.
14:51:30 <fruitbag> Alright, so how do we incremement the position while decrementing the contents of a cell statically?
14:53:15 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm not sure whether arbitrary lookup is even possible in BF, at least without the tape being explicitly structured.
15:01:33 <fruitbag> [>-<]: "Increment the pointer, decrement the contents of the new position and go back until zero is reached."
15:04:03 <fruitbag> So, what exactly happens with that one, Phantom_Hoover
15:04:55 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: it is possible
15:05:01 <ais523> (arbitrary lookup, that is)
15:05:10 <ais523> the trick is to move all the data along the tape
15:05:16 <ais523> in order to give room for a bunch of temporaries
15:05:39 <ais523> as in, say the tape starts out as abc12345678
15:05:47 <ais523> where the letters are temporaries and the numbers are data
15:05:51 <ais523> you change it to 1abc2345678
15:06:05 <ais523> moving the data past the temporaries
15:06:07 <Phantom_Hoover> fruitbag, >[-]+<[>-<[-]>is effectively equivalent to logical not.
15:07:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Doing that without some sort of compiler (or even macro system) seems like a road to insanity.
15:07:49 <fruitbag> Speaking of sanity, I think mine is on the verge
15:08:27 <fruitbag> Phantom_Hoover: I just want to go somewhere and be alone for a few weeks.
15:10:20 <fruitbag> Phantom_Hoover: it's even worse if you live in a big city
15:16:38 <fruitbag> How would one reverse a string?
15:18:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, having an effective swap algorithm would be a good start.
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15:19:49 <ais523> transfer-add a to a temp, b to a, then the temp to b
15:20:00 <ais523> that's a relatively fast swap
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15:24:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, if you null-terminate the string at each end, that might be enough.
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15:32:00 <fizzie> Okay, so it just reads it in and prints out in the opposite order.
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15:47:21 <Sgeo> "World disconnects need to be avoided at all costs"
15:47:24 <Sgeo> Love you, AWSDK
15:51:39 <fruitbag> Is there a variant of BF that allows one to specify numbers?
15:52:02 <fruitbag> For instance, if I wanted to place 10 at a cell, instead of doing ++++++++++ I would do 10+
15:53:00 <ais523> there's a bunch of BF abbreviations like that
15:53:13 <ais523> BF Joust writes it as (+)*10, for instance
15:54:33 <fruitbag> Guys, I think I have an idea...
15:55:38 <fruitbag> What if we form of statement that would go back to the intial cell?
15:55:55 <fruitbag> That is, it would go forward incrementally and at the same time go backward decrementally
15:56:33 <fruitbag> We have an intial value, go forward once, go backwad once (and decrement once) then go forward twice and so on
15:56:43 <ais523> that sounds about right
15:56:53 <ais523> although it depends on what you're using the loop to do
15:57:24 <fruitbag> Initial value, forward once, backward once (decrement by one), forward twice, ...
15:57:36 <fruitbag> ais523: traversing a specified number of cells
15:58:30 <fruitbag> Initial value, forward once, backward once (decrement by one), forward twice, backward twice (decrement by one), forward by three, backward by three (decrement by one), ...
15:58:39 <fruitbag> I'm not sure how to implement this, though
16:01:20 <Phantom_Hoover> In which case adding 1 to each cell that needs to be operated on and zeroing the next one is probably simpler.
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16:07:22 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, you were the one asking if Star Trek (2009) was worth watching
16:08:58 <fruitbag> I don't understand why people write 'Brainf*ck' when they are writing academic articles
16:09:29 <Phantom_Hoover> fruitbag, because. We had a long discussion on this last night
16:09:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, not Brainfuck specifically. Censorship in general.
16:10:42 <fruitbag> Phantom_Hoover: if vulgar words are used artistically and tastefully, then I'm for it
16:10:50 <fruitbag> If they are used just for the sake of being used, I'm against it
16:11:13 <fizzie> fungot's bf interp does the rle-style thing on output, and internally, but it doesn't allow it as input.
16:11:14 <fungot> fizzie: the code would be
16:11:45 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
16:12:11 <fizzie> lang=bf/ul, like it says.
16:12:49 <fizzie> No others so far, though I do have a standalone M-code interp I could finish and integrate in theory.
16:15:21 <fruitbag> Get a load of this -- I just read that some rich Arab payed 9 million for a number plate that is just "1"
16:16:01 <fruitbag> I suppoes there are indeed good ways to spend a shitload of money on
16:23:20 <Gregor> How much would you have to pay for ""
16:25:09 <ais523> Gregor: I don't think a zero-length numberplate would be allowed
16:25:56 <ais523> `ci will get you the current continuation
16:26:13 <ais523> what c does is to grab a continuation that causes c to retroactively return with the value it's given, and pass it to c's argument
16:29:10 <fizzie> There was that photo circling around the internet where someone had written a SQL injection thing on a self-made car numberplate, supposedly to foil those automatical speeding-ticket camera machines. (I doubt it actually work-worked anywhere, but still.)
16:30:31 <fizzie> http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/4/2010/03/for_traffic_cameras.jpg that is.
16:34:18 <fruitbag> What operating system do you guys use?
16:36:16 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: So, something that runs on a Sparc?
16:37:13 <fizzie> I have a SPARCstation 5 in the basement, does that count?
16:37:25 <fizzie> (It's nice, but makes a whole lot of noise.)
16:39:24 <fizzie> To answer more seriously, my gut tells me the channel might be somewhat Linux-dominated, but I'm sure there are exceptions.
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16:47:35 <fruitbag> Well, I'm in my workshop now and we use a multitude of OSes
16:47:45 <fruitbag> I was tinkering around with Haiku OS last night
16:54:15 <alise> Have they ruined BeOS?
16:54:51 <alise> Anyway, yes, this channel is Linux + Windows with a few holdouts.
16:54:54 <alise> cpressey uses FreeBSD/
16:55:01 <alise> In fact Windows is very rare too.
16:55:20 <alise> So I'd say almost all Linux, maybe two to three windows, and ... cpressey.
16:56:18 <pikhq> And a handful of OS X usage.
16:56:30 <alise> Distros, not so sure; I'd expect a plurality, but not necessarily a majority, of Ubuntu, one or two Debian (fizzie and Gregor (well, sidux, but it's basically the same thing)), a few on Arch (Deewiant, AnMaster (sometimes), me),
16:56:31 <pikhq> Oh, wait, that'd be the holdouts.
16:56:42 <alise> and two on Gentoo (pikhq and AnMaster).
16:56:48 <alise> pikhq: Oh yeah; jix is OS X.
16:57:10 <pikhq> The common theme is, of course, UNIX.
16:57:19 <alise> comex uses OS X and Linux I think
16:57:32 <alise> Warrigal and Slereah use Windows unless Slereah finally got Linux working properly
16:57:38 <alise> Sgeo uses Windows because of his shitty games
16:58:03 <fizzie> The okkklo pol is Windowsy too, wasn't he?
16:58:15 <alise> Yes. But also Ubuntu on one of his laptops.
16:58:18 <alise> But Windows now, I think.
16:58:23 <alise> Also, "is ... wasn't"
16:59:07 <fizzie> I do have that OS X laptop too, but I guess this was more "use for the most of the time" type of question.
16:59:14 <alise> Did I say you, coppro?
16:59:15 <coppro> I will probably download a legit copy through the MSDNAA next year, but not because I like Windows
16:59:24 <coppro> alise: I like to feel important
16:59:26 <alise> <alise> So I'd say almost all Linux, maybe two to three windows, and ... cpressey.
16:59:27 <fruitbag> What machines are you guys using right now?
16:59:34 <pikhq> zzo38 uses Windows, shockingly.
16:59:43 <Sgeo> I'm seriously considering having announcement handlers run in separate processes and all be run in 1 monitor
16:59:44 <alise> pikhq: Until he switches to ZZO38NUX
16:59:45 <fruitbag> I'm using a Lenovo Thinkpad T60
16:59:51 <pikhq> fruitbag: Handbuilt $300 desktop.
17:00:02 <pikhq> Graphics card is shit, everything else is rather reasonable.
17:00:03 <alise> fruitbag: Toshiba T150 running Arch Linux.
17:00:17 <Phantom_Hoover> I have a crappy Acer. I may get a better computer soon, but then my decisionphobia kicks in.
17:00:22 <alise> At least, I think it's a T150.
17:00:23 <fruitbag> Acer is quite nice, Phantom_Hoover
17:00:26 <Sgeo> alise, please tell me that what I said is close enough to "single-threaded" as to seem pointless
17:00:34 <Sgeo> And non-dangerous
17:00:37 <alise> 13.3" screen, 1.33 GHz ultra-low voltage processor, 4 GiB of RAM.
17:00:43 <Phantom_Hoover> fruitbag, well, yes. It's fine in all non-graphicsy respects.
17:00:45 <fruitbag> I remember having an Acer before it was well-known in 1997
17:00:48 <alise> It can almost decode 1080p with full AV synchronisation, so I'm happy with its performance.
17:00:54 <alise> I have a Microsoft optical mouse plugged in :P
17:01:10 <Warrigal> alise: I no longer use Windows.
17:01:10 <fizzie> This box too doesn't really have a model name, and listing all the specs sounds a bit too boresome.
17:01:19 <alise> Warrigal: Okay. What do you use? OS X? Linux?
17:01:25 <fizzie> T500 sounds like a terminator model.
17:01:35 <Warrigal> Usually OS X, sometimes Linux.
17:01:41 <fruitbag> On eBay, there's a bunch of low-grade ARM Windows CE junk
17:01:43 <coppro> this thing has awful graphics but a beast of a processor (for compiling)
17:01:57 <alise> fruitbag: Yes, but Why Would You Want To.
17:02:10 <alise> I do own a ridiculously shitty "netbook"; 7" screen, ARM, and running a bastardised Debian.
17:02:19 <alise> I got proper Debian on it but broke it with one tiny error. Sigh.
17:02:28 <alise> fruitbag: Nah, "Ubisurfer"
17:02:48 <alise> It's the cheapest netbook ever, apparently. Comes with FREE FREE GPRS internet which /proxies to a Windows server running IE and sends back images of the page/
17:02:50 <alise> (I am not joking.)
17:02:53 <fruitbag> Sharp have released a nice device they call the Netwalker, I think
17:02:57 <alise> Cost like £150 so, ha.
17:03:05 <alise> fruitbag: Apparently.
17:03:12 <alise> I pretty much hate netbooks.
17:03:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Free GPRs? I should have thought that they were standard.
17:03:15 <fizzie> There's a Debian in my phone, too. (Okay, so it's Maemo, but close enough.)
17:03:21 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: GPRS internet :|
17:03:23 <alise> and only for proxying to IE
17:03:56 <fruitbag> You can never be entirely immune if you are using Mozilla on every architecture
17:03:58 <alise> fruitbag: I also own a 2006 iMac, a relatively new low-spec computer in an old, old case that I don't use...
17:04:09 <alise> Does an iPhone count as a computer?
17:04:15 <alise> What does ARM have to do with security?
17:04:19 <alise> What does Mozilla have to do with security?
17:04:42 <alise> Well, yeah, no shit, neither is Linux.
17:04:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, nonexecutable memory is an arch-level security feature
17:04:51 <fruitbag> alise: Mozilla is a mainstream browser that is a popular target
17:04:53 <alise> But the mainstream argument is bunk; it's UNIX's security model that saves it.
17:04:56 <cpressey> I use Windows here (at work) and Linux (Ubuntu) at home. I used to run primarily FreeBSD, but that was a few years ago now.
17:05:04 <alise> fruitbag: Once targeted you could only run native code, though, if you wanted to do anything interesting.
17:05:08 <alise> So ARM is safe anyway.
17:05:17 <alise> Anyway, it's more the OS.
17:05:27 <alise> Windows is simply fundamentally flawed wrt its security model...
17:05:36 <fruitbag> alise: I once had an idea of a secure setup: two machines -- one for internet-based stuff and another for work and storing data.
17:05:45 <alise> Secure setup: Properly sandboxed operating system...
17:06:00 <alise> Anyway, if you use Linux and don't run programs with "sudo" unless you know what they do... you're fine#
17:06:02 <fruitbag> One machine would never be connected at all
17:06:13 <coppro> alise: make that mostly fine
17:06:26 <cpressey> Ubuntu makes my home laptop an unenjoyable piece of junk, but at least it runs -- I don't trust any *BSD to install on such a fragile profile of hardware as a laptop, and they all have such crud package managers.
17:06:34 <fruitbag> And for backing up, two seperate hard drives
17:06:34 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, your security features on that OS we were discussing were... mad.
17:06:54 <fizzie> Unless I misremember, mooz had a non-internetted primary-use computer at some point; used a serial link to transfer selected data files when necessary, and never anything executable.
17:06:58 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Mad in a good way, I hope :D
17:07:03 <coppro> you can still lose your homedir, and kernel exploits could give a root. Kernel exploits are far rare than <RANDOM APPLICATION> exploits
17:07:12 <alise> Anyway it's basically a blend of E's and Newspeak's security systems.
17:07:20 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Well, yeah.
17:07:26 <alise> But that's just to avoid context-switching.
17:07:30 <fruitbag> fizzie: sure, but even that serial link could put the machine in danger in some way
17:07:39 <alise> fruitbag: No ... it couldn't
17:07:46 <alise> OSes don't just randomly run code that comes in on ports.
17:07:52 <alise> You're a bit paranoid.
17:07:58 <fizzie> alise: There could be an exploit in the serial port driver, you see!
17:08:21 <fruitbag> The safest way to transfer data between machines is by a USB flash stick
17:08:23 <alise> Right. That's likely, you know, because serial ports are so hard to get right.
17:08:25 <alise> So much potential for error.
17:08:35 <alise> fruitbag: do you actually put this system into practice? Surely you realise how hopelessly impractical and overly paranoid it is.
17:08:48 <fruitbag> No, alise... I abandoned the idea
17:08:50 <alise> fruitbag: Besides, haha...
17:08:54 <alise> fruitbag: There could be an exploit in the USB driver.
17:08:56 <fizzie> It's also no safer than a serial link.
17:08:58 <alise> Just as much as the serial port driver.
17:09:03 <alise> Oh snap, channel-wide epiphany
17:09:15 <coppro> OH MY GOD... I BELIEVE IN GOD NOW!
17:09:26 <fizzie> Especially if the other computer is Windows; wasn't there that relatively recent USB-stick-driven seek-some-industrial-control-system virus?
17:09:31 <fruitbag> I suppose the setup is indeed overly paranoid
17:09:34 <fizzie> (Since those tend to be not connected to the interwebs.)
17:09:34 <Phantom_Hoover> You should be using transfer methods rooted entirely in userspace!
17:09:38 <alise> I daresay that USB drivers are much more likely to be broken than serial port drivers.
17:09:51 <fruitbag> A better idea would be to make the internet machine ARM-based
17:09:55 <fruitbag> Something that isn't mainstream
17:09:58 <alise> I think you just like ARM too much.
17:10:07 <alise> You knows, OSes don't just randomly run machine code in ring 0.
17:10:09 <fruitbag> Well, I suppose it could be MIPS-based too
17:10:10 <cpressey> Is this conversation actually taking place?
17:10:19 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: No, it runs Lisp.
17:10:24 <alise> cpressey: Apparently.
17:10:30 <coppro> `addquote * Phantom_Hoover sticks crayons in his nose
17:10:35 <HackEgo> 208|* Phantom_Hoover sticks crayons in his nose
17:10:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Lisp which is compiled, hence making binary distribution the least secure thing ever.
17:10:57 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Er, no.
17:11:03 <alise> It only runs source Lisp, which it compiles itself.
17:11:15 <alise> There is no method to execute machine code outside of the top security level.
17:11:22 <alise> Below, it's just Lisp.
17:11:36 <fruitbag> What is the least secure programming language?
17:11:41 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: That's remarkably vague.
17:11:46 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I'm not sure you've thought this exploit through.
17:12:17 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, well, it is for an OS which hasn't been thought through.
17:12:23 <fruitbag> Phantom_Hoover: for instance, since there is no array bounds checking in C, buffer overflow security holes are common
17:12:47 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Well, I'm 99.9999% certain my security model works. :P
17:13:40 <fizzie> That's a lot of nines; is this one of the 89 % of statistics that are made up on the spot?
17:13:48 <Phantom_Hoover> All programs will allow the execution of arbitrary code if the word "foo" is typed in at any point of their execution.
17:13:59 <cpressey> alise: The traditional argument against (e.g.) Lisp and for context switching is that Lisp (or any other VM) can't get the performance of compiled code. But the alternative is all that time taken context switching -- I haven't regularly believed the argument.
17:14:00 <alise> fizzie: The exact figure is 74%.
17:14:25 <alise> cpressey: My architecture was a Lisp compiler. Everything ran in ring 0, but because the Lisp had a very strong security model, it was safe.
17:14:51 <alise> cpressey: Since you could only pass Lisp to be executed, and there was a very strong total sandboxing system in place, it's even safer than typical UNIX-based OSes.
17:15:07 <alise> cpressey: Everything runs in ring 0 because one single call could end up talking to the hardware via e.g. the keyboard driver.
17:15:17 <alise> So instead of switching into kernel and back all the time, we just run everything in ring 0.
17:15:43 <fizzie> Is this the "safe assuming no implementation errors" definition of "safe"?
17:18:02 -!- alise has left (?).
17:18:04 -!- alise has joined.
17:18:14 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: "Lumenos was currently" --Lumenos
17:18:44 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: http://lumeniki.referata.com/wiki/Lumenikilu Fun fact: Capitalising the first letter of a word makes it plural.
17:19:13 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Do link.
17:22:31 <alise> clearly Ubuntu 11.04 will be "Niggardly Nigger"
17:22:42 <alise> (NOTE: Only one word in that sentence is hideously offensive.)
17:23:05 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, have you worked out a sensible way of mapping disc to memory yet?
17:23:12 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yes. I propose we use flux capacitors.
17:23:44 <Phantom_Hoover> But we're going for standard x86-64 hardware, aren't we?
17:24:25 <alise> Augmented with flux capacitors.
17:25:21 <alise> Because of mogulic misappropriation.
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17:29:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Does Haskell allow you to define monads that aren't functors?
17:29:22 <alise> Yes; this is a flaw.
17:29:33 <alise> I believe Monad originated before Functor, so there is not the dependency.
17:29:57 <alise> IIRC there is a Monad instance in the standard library which is not a functor (in the mathematical sense); this is an egregrious abuse, but there you go.
17:30:44 <alise> Because it does not obey the functor laws.
17:31:34 <alise> fmap (f.g) = fmap f . fmap g
17:32:47 <alise> Oh jeez, Emacs depends on gconf.
17:33:01 <alise> The GTK+ version, at least.
17:33:18 <alise> The kind of sense that makes me want to slap people.
17:33:45 <alise> Because dammit I don't want gconf.
17:34:35 -!- choochter has quit (Quit: lang may yer lum reek..).
17:35:05 <alise> Because I don't want GNOME components on my system; and because gconf not only requires a daemon to run at all times, but is very hard to change keys in -- you can't just edit the files, really.
17:36:22 <alise> ... of course, since I don't have gconfd running, Evince won't actuall yremember my settings but will still have the daemon installed.
17:39:07 <alise> *actually remember
17:41:14 <alise> I need a single word that means "of note". :|
17:42:23 <alise> Yeah, another one.
17:43:51 <pikhq> alise: There's a Monad instance that's not a functor? Said Monad instance is clearly not a monad.
17:43:55 <pikhq> And hence this is a bug.
17:44:08 <alise> pikhq: Of course; but a well-established one, just like Monad not being declared as Functor => Monad.
17:44:16 <pikhq> alise: Which instance?
17:44:20 <alise> People loathe to change the standard library, quite understandably.
17:44:26 <alise> pikhq: I'm not sure.
17:44:28 <pikhq> I loathe the standard library.
17:44:57 <alise> pikhq: Have you read the Epitome?
17:45:24 <alise> http://www.e-pig.org/darcs/Pig09/src/Epitome.pdf
17:45:46 <alise> The finest Epigram implementation there is! The only Epigram implemention there is!
17:46:01 <alise> Written in beautiful Strathclyde Haskell Extension, typeset by beautiful LaTeX!
17:46:09 <alise> To be compiled with the beautiful glorious Glasgow Haskell Compilation system!
17:46:37 <pikhq> Sadly, said LaTeX is not microtype'd.
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17:46:44 <alise> pikhq: You can /tell/?
17:47:04 <alise> The T vs the i on the first page?
17:47:05 <pikhq> alise: Lack of margin kerning.
17:47:11 <alise> pikhq: Is that it?
17:47:19 <ais523> what's this debate about?
17:47:32 <alise> ais523: pikhq has been given a PDF typeset with LaTeX
17:47:35 <pikhq> Most of the other microtypography stuff is not noticable outside of comparisons.
17:47:42 <alise> ais523: he has been able to /recognise/ that it has not been \usepackage{microtype}d
17:47:50 <alise> ais523: because of a lack of a specific microtypographical correction
17:47:58 <alise> I am busy being astonished that he has managed to do this.
17:48:10 <alise> pikhq: Which two lines gave it away?
17:48:13 <pikhq> (the character shrinking and stretching is only noticable in that it generates less ugly hyphenation
17:48:25 <alise> And what sect of Buddhism do I have to study to reach this kind of enlightenment?
17:48:38 <pikhq> alise: Look at any line with ending terminal punctuation. This is what makes it *most* obvious.
17:48:43 <pikhq> Erm. Ending punctuation.
17:48:44 <alise> The character shrinking and stretching sucks a bit though, because you have to disable ligatures for it to work properly, which disables quotes etc.
17:48:53 <alise> even if you do it specifically avoiding disabling quotes
17:49:01 <alise> ligatures get disabled even at small spacings
17:49:05 <alise> where they would be beneficial
17:49:24 <alise> pikhq: But there aren't any to start with.
17:49:30 <alise> Anyway, whatever, it's just an Epigram implementation :P
17:49:32 <pikhq> The letter spacing changes are also only noticable in that they generate less ugly hyphenation...
17:49:47 <alise> Oh, letter spacing.
17:49:55 <alise> To prove that statement, we first show that any Tm {In, VV} p which is not a N t is not a
17:49:56 <alise> neutral term. This is obvious as we are left with lambda and canonicals, which cannot be stuck.
17:49:58 <alise> Yeah, I see it there.
17:50:11 <alise> Ah, you mean commas?
17:50:15 <alise> Okay; I see it there.
17:50:24 <pikhq> Yes, commas also get kerned on the edge.
17:50:49 <pikhq> Also, though this requires more attention to detail, you would be able to see other characters getting kerned.
17:50:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, by the way. This has bugged me about the Epitome for ages.
17:51:14 <alise> Oh, none of us have actually /read/ the thing.
17:51:15 <pikhq> For instance, that "k" on the second line of the second paragraph of page 9 would be partially in the margin.
17:51:27 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: See page 251.
17:51:36 <pikhq> As would the "T" on the very start of the first paragraph on page 9.
17:51:46 <alise> data Bwd x = B0 | Bwd x :< x
17:51:51 <alise> data Bwd x = B0 | (<:) (Bwd x) x
17:51:55 <alise> i.e., a reverse list.
17:52:04 <alise> data Fwd x = F0 | (:>) x (Fwd x)
17:52:08 <alise> which is obviously the regular list structure.
17:52:44 <alise> "This always succeed." --Conor
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17:57:57 <alise> How does one enable XeTeX's microtypographical support?
17:58:53 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Dependent types.
17:59:05 <pikhq> alise: Doesn't exist yet.
17:59:06 <alise> It's not actually actively being using to /research/ i.e. write papers and shit.
17:59:06 <cpressey> alise: Oh damn, you found the Epitome too? I was trying to read it. It's hilarious.
17:59:11 <alise> It's more an experimental vehicle.
17:59:18 <alise> cpressey: Hilarious because of Conor's humour, or what? :P
17:59:24 <cpressey> I can't tell what's a technical term from type theory and what's kidding.
17:59:38 <alise> cpressey: Either you said that before or someone else thought the same.
17:59:47 <alise> Sgeo: http://www.e-pig.org/darcs/Pig09/src/Epitome.pdf
18:01:02 <cpressey> "References are the key way we represent free variables, declared, defined, and deluded."
18:01:16 <cpressey> Deluded is *probably* kidding. But who knows?
18:01:42 <alise> pikhq: So, wait, XeTeX does no microtypographical adjustments?
18:01:47 <alise> pikhq: But that's /half the point/ of XeTeX!
18:02:50 <pikhq> alise: Actually, the point of XeTeX is to support OpenType features.
18:02:56 <alise> So, uh, anyone know of a panelly thing for X11 that doesn't suck? A clock, systray icons, and a windows list, that's all I'm lookin' for.
18:03:18 <pikhq> It doesn't yet support the microtype portions of OpenType.
18:03:44 <alise> 02:25:19 <GreaseMonkey> i left it way too late to chip in but i have a friend who thinks he may have an O(n^4) algorithm for turning NP into P
18:03:46 <alise> He's full of shit.
18:03:47 <pikhq> (likewise, it doesn't yet support the vertical text layout portions of OpenType)
18:03:55 -!- tombom_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
18:03:56 <alise> pikhq: Well that's fucking useless.
18:04:12 <alise> Can you get Linux Libertine in ... a format that pdfTeX supports?
18:04:59 <cpressey> alise: The fact that "I don't want GNOME components on my system" isn't regarded as a valid desire is one of the defining problems of our generation (whatever that means)... it goes along with "This is just an accretion of hacks and features that were slapped on one-by-one" not being a valid criticism of a code base.
18:04:59 <pikhq> http://www.tex.ac.uk/tex-archive/help/Catalogue/entries/libertine.html
18:05:29 <pikhq> Oh, it's part of TeX Live.
18:05:32 <pikhq> \usepackage{libertine}
18:05:49 <alise> pikhq: Does it support all the nice ligatures and stuff? I hope so.
18:06:23 <alise> pikhq: Sir, that doesn't automatically set the text font. Whaddo I do
18:07:35 <alise> pikhq: \usepackage{libertine} still uses Computer Modern fonts by default.
18:07:40 <alise> It seems I have to do more to set it as the default font.
18:07:42 <pikhq> Oh, hey. "XeTeX now supports margin kerning along the same lines as pdfTeX"
18:07:53 <alise> Okay, but this is fine too. I'm more comfortable with pdfTeX. :P
18:08:20 <alise> What's that command you use in the quotation environment, name \*flushright for some *, to set the author?
18:08:33 <alise> \somethingflushright Awesome Person
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18:11:59 <coppro> http://sourceforge.net/projects/webadmin/forums/forum/600155/topic/3801603
18:12:15 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
18:12:32 <alise> 04:43:10 <fizzie> oerjan: Not cool, not funny, not a good comic?
18:12:37 <alise> fizzie's secret identity is revealed
18:13:13 <alise> well, okay, it's not that funny
18:16:31 <Sgeo> http://www.cfnews13.com/article/news/2010/august/134484/Al-Jazeera-on-college-TV-station-causes-concern
18:16:49 <alise> http://www.win.tue.nl/~gwoegi/P-versus-NP/argall.txt
18:16:50 <cpressey> "instance Naperian Bwd where -- cheeky!"
18:17:08 <alise> "a controversial network"
18:17:13 <alise> Al Jazeera is a controversial network?
18:17:24 <alise> Waaaaah ... I want to cry ...
18:17:32 <Sgeo> alise, some of the comments are worse
18:18:11 <alise> That fizzie is sjeforgotthenumbers.
18:18:27 <alise> "This is a government funded college and thus should only promote the United States of America. Not a fascist idiology of anti-American hate from those who are sworn to kill all of us as they are of wiping Israel off the map. The sooner you liberal knuckle-heads understand that salient point the clearer your thought processes might become."
18:18:30 <alise> I think -- hope -- this is a joke.
18:18:32 <fizzie> Or maybe, just possibly, I've just been reading the forums approximately thrice?
18:19:08 <alise> pikhq: I forgot to \usepackage[T1]{fontenc}. *headdesk*
18:19:32 <alise> fizzie: Insert Shakespearean pun.
18:19:37 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: You know, some people /do/ use humour.
18:19:51 <cpressey> I hope that "P=NP is undecidable" proof is a joke, too, but it's not.
18:20:23 <Sgeo> I.. don't quite get it
18:22:47 <alise> pikhq: How does one set the default mathematics font in LaTeX?
18:23:46 <alise> Wow; evince segfaults on this PDF.
18:28:09 <cpressey> Er, Epitome, or whatever their implementation is called, I mean.
18:28:35 <cpressey> Hate it when language and implementation are conflated like that.
18:28:48 <cpressey> Do try to keep up, Phantom_Hoover_.
18:29:43 <alise> cpressey: Their implementation has no name; you just check out it, and all the associated components, from the "Epigram" repository. The way you interact with the implementation is called the Cochon interactive theorem prover.
18:30:02 <alise> That has the "data T := (c:T); ..." stuff and the "make x : T" stuff, etc.
18:30:21 <alise> But the expressions and the implementations of these syntaxes et al. is part of the implementation.
18:30:29 <cpressey> alise: They do say "the source code of Epigram is available..." Which always bugs me.
18:30:33 <alise> The Epitome is the name of the properly-typeset implementation.
18:30:44 <alise> cpressey: Yes, but that's {"An Epigram Implementation", Cochon, ...}
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18:31:28 <cpressey> I know what they "probably mean" but I still regard it as a bad habit.
18:32:16 <cpressey> Too many people can't make the distinction -- no need to encourage it through more "abuse of notation" like that. Anyway, just my pet peeve.
18:33:10 * Sgeo gibbers at Reddit being down
18:36:35 <alise> www.reddit.com works, reddit.com doesn't
18:39:35 <alise> What's the LaTeX command to set not initial line indentation of a paragraph, but indentation of all following lines?
18:41:22 <coppro> "The best way is to draw pictures; but this requires a chapter all by itself."
18:43:09 <coppro> (he's talking about functions)
18:45:40 <cpressey> tokenEq t = (|id ~ () (% tokenFilter (== t) %)|)
18:45:57 <cpressey> I've never seen that syntax in Haskell before... is this SHE stuff?
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18:52:15 <alise> pikhq: \usepackage[libertine} doesn’t do the “Qu” ligature.
18:52:38 -!- alise has left (?).
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18:54:13 <alise> cpressey: So do you really use FreeBSD as a day-to-day OS?
18:54:43 <cpressey> alise: I used to. Meaning, no. But I have, in the past.
18:55:55 <cpressey> Upside: the kernel is actually well written. Downside: all BSD package managers suck. Java support was almost nonexistent. The userland is still largely GNU anyway. Etc, etc.
18:56:52 <alise> cpressey: What do you use now?
18:56:56 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: In Libertine, yes.
18:57:06 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: The Q’s tail flows underneath the u.
18:57:17 <alise> Do you have the Linux Libertine font installed?
18:57:27 <alise> Switch to it on IRC. XChat, yes?
18:57:33 <cpressey> alise: Ubuntu. Sadly. Can I call it Ubuntoad? That, and Cygwin-under-Windows-7.
18:58:00 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Switched to it?
18:58:17 <alise> “Quite how we are to perform this feat, I am not certain,” admitted the dean.
18:58:55 <alise> Qu <-- with zero width space inbetween
18:59:03 <alise> The former is how it apperas in LaTeX.
18:59:06 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: It is a pretty nice typeface.
18:59:34 <alise> A bit too... subtle for freetype to render properly, but all other fonts suck more, so I’m using it on IRC.
18:59:49 <alise> I especially like the capital “M”. The little slant! It’s so cute.
18:59:57 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Also: “Th” is a ligature.
19:00:10 <alise> Type “T”, then “h”. Note the transformation.
19:00:21 <alise> Th Th <-- Zero-width spaces to the rescue.
19:00:37 <alise> fi fi <-- The fi ligature.
19:00:46 <alise> fl fl <-- The fl ligature.
19:00:54 <alise> ff ff <-- The ff ligature.
19:00:59 <alise> (Those are a bit more subtle.)
19:01:04 <alise> (Though the unligatured fi is hideous.)
19:01:19 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Also nice is Biolinium, Libertine’s sans-serif sister.
19:01:43 <alise> <-- Thank Libertine for this.
19:02:10 <alise> is pretty bizarre; does it show up as wavy lines for anyone else?
19:04:00 <ais523> alise: it's a black circle for me
19:05:16 <alise> The face is complete.
19:07:34 <alise> Yes it is. Why isn't it?
19:07:45 <alise> Looks centred to me.
19:08:00 <alise> “I wish I had some sort of XChat plugin that properifies my quote marks.”
19:08:06 <alise> And makes -- into a real em-dash.
19:08:21 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Is not automatic.
19:08:31 <alise> Oh wait, I can just make substitutions for ``, '' and --.
19:09:46 <alise> Oh, it needs to be a word.
19:11:41 <alise> Wow, you’re meant to use an en-dash rather than a hyphen when it’s an adjective attached to multiple words, e.g. “Civil War–era”.
19:11:45 <alise> At least according to this random website.
19:12:49 <alise> Wikipedia doesn't seem to back this up.
19:13:27 <pikhq> alise: It's something that varies from style guide to style guide.
19:14:14 <alise> Hah, Unicode can't mark up superscript-th, for all its useless superscripts and subscripts.
19:15:22 <alise> pikhq: Clearly, the preferred usage should be {Civil War}-era.
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19:15:55 <pikhq> alise: Clearly. :P
19:21:56 <alise> I want a programming language! Stat!
19:22:11 <alise> http://conservapedia.com/Counterexamples_to_Relativity
19:22:16 <alise> coppro: No! Another one! Stat!
19:22:27 <alise> The theory of relativity is a mathematical system that allows no exceptions. It is heavily promoted by liberals who like its encouragement of relativism and its tendency to mislead people in how they view the world.[1] Here is a list of 24 counterexamples: any one of them shows that the theory is incorrect.
19:22:58 <alise> [[The action-at-a-distance of quantum entanglement.[5]
19:22:59 <alise> The action-at-a-distance by Jesus, described in John 4:46-54.]]
19:23:16 <alise> Juxtaposing quantum entanglement with Jesus for the same purpose: Hilarity defined.
19:23:34 <alise> coppro: You're just going through the alphabet!
19:24:15 <coppro> B is a programming language too!
19:24:30 <alise> And M! If you use that name instead of MUMPS.
19:30:18 <alise> they have "Black holes" in the list of liberal pseudoscience
19:33:18 <alise> theory: fax uses conservapedia
19:33:24 <alise> that would explain the insanity & the wikipedia hatred
19:34:23 <alise> Frank you make an interesting point, and I have an open mind about it. But I'm not entirely convinced. When the woman cured herself of bleeding and Jesus felt power leaving him, that sounds more like heat than light. And for heat to travel virtually instantaneously (or at the speed of light) WOULD violate the theory of relativity.--Andy Schlafly 20:48, 5 January 2010 (EST)
19:35:01 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: You know that WM I described to you?
19:36:30 <alise> "On this site we encourage *thinking* in a logical way.--Andy Schlafly"
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19:42:20 <coppro> I never knew the government could be this helpful
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19:55:36 <oerjan> 08:15:21 <fruitbag> Get a load of this -- I just read that some rich Arab payed .9 million for a number plate that is just "1"
19:55:43 <oerjan> 08:20:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Meh. Someone in Asia payed an inordinate sum for 5.
19:55:58 <oerjan> i think those were the same country, it was in a newspaper here
19:56:26 <oerjan> Qatar or Kuwait or something like that
19:58:17 <alise> Qatar is a bad name for a country because it does not utilise the Qu ligature.
19:58:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, apart from the previously mentioned panos recently I took some obviously non-pano photos with my phone from a moving car on the way home (I don't have the google setup sadly!). http://mewtwo.sporksirc.net/~anmaster/images/gothenburg2010/trip_home/ if you are interested. If you can recommend some software to generate a minimalistic static gallery page I would be happy. Nothing that wouldn't wor
19:59:25 <fizzie> I've used a Java thing for a static album dealie, but I'm not sure I'd go and recommend it.
20:00:39 <oerjan> incidentally the top google hit when i tried to find it was a blog saying it was saudi arabia, but i am 100% sure that is wrong (and a later google hit said abu dhabi)
20:00:41 <alise> for x in *; do echo "<p><img src=$x>" >>index.html; done
20:00:49 <fizzie> It also seems to have become confusing, with some sort of free hosting plan and iPhone apps and whatnot.
20:01:07 <fizzie> The do-it-yourself solution is always a possibility, too.
20:01:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, that involves a lot of work I'm not willing to spend
20:02:02 <fizzie> Or the "thumbnails with bash-oneliner of convert, ls | sed to create the album page" approach in my case.
20:02:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, so for now wget -r -np http://mewtwo.sporksirc.net/~anmaster/images/gothenburg2010/trip_home/ and eog on the resulting directory
20:02:54 <fizzie> Or just clickety-click in the browser.
20:03:03 <AnMaster> fizzie, that involves more clicking ;P
20:03:43 <AnMaster> http://mewtwo.sporksirc.net/~anmaster/images/gothenburg2010/trip_home/Bild032.jpg might need some explanation...
20:03:44 <fizzie> It's O(n), anyway. (Or, well, I guess eog can do some sort of automatic-advance slideshow, maybe.)
20:04:03 <AnMaster> I don't know the English word for hemvärnet
20:04:07 <fizzie> Isn't mewtwo some sort of pokeymon?
20:04:09 <AnMaster> but that building used to be that
20:04:19 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes, I didn't decide naming scheme of servers
20:04:32 <cpressey> Never ever use a quote which contains both the words "aloofness" and "gel" (verb).
20:04:57 <oerjan> `addquote <cpressey> Never ever use a quote which contains both the words "aloofness" and "gel" (verb).
20:05:04 <HackEgo> 209|<cpressey> Never ever use a quote which contains both the words "aloofness" and "gel" (verb).
20:05:04 <alise> AnMaster: <alise> for x in *; do echo "<p><img src=$x>" >>index.html; done
20:05:14 <AnMaster> fizzie, as the domain name implies it is an irc network (you wouldn't like it I think). I'm an oper there. Not the one deciding on naming scheme though.
20:05:23 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
20:05:24 <alise> <cpressey> Never ever use a quote which contains both the words "aloofness" and "gel" (verb).
20:05:29 <AnMaster> alise, hm, needs some </p> and such
20:05:35 <alise> AnMaster: <p> is perfectly valid
20:05:38 <alise> (without unterminated </p>)
20:05:40 <AnMaster> alise, I don't do HTML5, sorry
20:05:45 <alise> AnMaster: in HTML4.1 Strict
20:05:54 <fizzie> He only speaks XML, you see.
20:06:01 <alise> fizzie: yeah, but that's just because he's fucking stupid.
20:06:09 <AnMaster> fizzie, actually S-Expressions too, but no browser does that
20:06:19 <cpressey> They may be crazy, but I'm with them on the "black holes are probably a complete fiction" platform.
20:06:44 <fizzie> <irc:message recipient="#alise">How so&interrobang;</irc:message>
20:06:45 <AnMaster> cpressey, that doesn't explain the evidence for them in the form of gravitational lenses and so on
20:06:51 <alise> cpressey: That is... vanishingly unlikely.
20:07:18 <alise> Wow... I think I just disproved the Riemann hypothesis.
20:07:20 <alise> http://pastie.org/1082326.txt?key=kt6ybknat9le7iodnlxzxw
20:07:22 <alise> You heard it here first.
20:07:33 <alise> P!=NP, !Riemann... a lot of interesting theorems being proved recently!
20:08:01 <AnMaster> alise, I want to see this published in a peer-reviewed paper first :P
20:08:13 <alise> Published in a paper?
20:08:25 <cpressey> AnMaster: "Gravitational lensing" is a complete *guess* as to "why the sky appears like that there".
20:08:27 <AnMaster> alise, well, if you actually *proved* it...
20:08:37 <alise> AnMaster: You fail at terminology.
20:08:43 <oerjan> alise: black holes not actually existing as singularities isn't that unlikely
20:08:46 <alise> Besides, I didn't; I disproved it.
20:08:54 <alise> AnMaster: You don't publish things in papers.
20:08:57 <AnMaster> alise, I used proved in the old sense
20:08:57 <alise> You publish papers in journals.
20:09:21 <fizzie> cpressey: A peer-reviewed toilet paper.
20:09:36 <fizzie> Real Men of Science only use that stuff.
20:09:39 <alise> oerjan: ok, but black holes altogether?
20:09:43 <AnMaster> you would be able to publish in any journal of your choice if your disproof passes peer review
20:09:50 <alise> AnMaster: yes, but I was announcing it here first.
20:09:56 <alise> so that people can take a look at it and maybe point out flaws
20:10:04 <alise> I'm submitting it to Annals of Mathematics tomorrow if all goes well.
20:10:10 <alise> I'm sure oerjan can back me up.
20:10:10 <AnMaster> alise, well, my math is not nearly up to scratch in that area
20:10:13 <alise> oerjan: http://pastie.org/1082326.txt?key=kt6ybknat9le7iodnlxzxw
20:10:32 <AnMaster> alise, and yes oerjan could probably help
20:10:32 <oerjan> alise: it might also be that horizon never actually forms (it's apparently consistent to assume that happens infinitely far in the future from our viewpoint, after all)
20:11:08 <fizzie> Incidentally, speaking of photography, I took a minute of handsfree video from the Assembly main hall, in the interests of trying out the panotools-driven time-lapse stabilization trick to make it un-shakey. It's unfortunately a pretty boring sight; just a bunch of flashing lights.
20:11:22 <alise> oerjan: any comments on my disproof?
20:11:45 <AnMaster> alise, hm is this a constructive proof? As in you can show a specific value it is wrong for, or provide a way to construct such a value?
20:12:00 <alise> AnMaster: Erm, the Riemann hypothesis states that such a value exists.
20:12:11 <alise> I see what you mean.
20:12:13 <alise> My disproof specifies that.
20:12:22 <alise> AnMaster: it is not a constructive proof, but then a great many mathematical proofs aren't
20:12:39 <alise> constructing a value is probably possible but I have no idea what kind of techniques you'd use
20:12:44 <alise> Mine is a simple proof by contradiction.
20:12:44 <AnMaster> alise, doesn't it state that *all* _non-trivial_ 0 lies on a specific line
20:12:51 <alise> Yes; I handle this.
20:13:02 <alise> A trivial 0 = negative even number.
20:13:35 <AnMaster> I don't remember the specific details
20:13:47 <AnMaster> alise, anyway what about that P!=NP proof?
20:14:18 <alise> what do you mean, what about it?
20:14:31 <fizzie> alise: Is it correct, of course.
20:14:36 <fizzie> alise: I assume you've already grokked all about it!
20:14:50 <AnMaster> as in, who made it and who checked it
20:14:54 <fizzie> It's only 100 pages of pure math.
20:14:58 <alise> it was authored by a competent computer scientist working at a high position in a large coroporation, it was sent to a bunch of high-profile computer scientists to review; it got published not by the author, but by someone else (so he didn't just post a non-peer-reviewed paper)
20:15:11 <fizzie> But it hasn't been conclusively checked yet.
20:15:14 <alise> I think it's possibly true -- he's not a crank -- but probably flawed but useful.
20:15:21 <AnMaster> I have to say however I will be less surprised if it is proven that P!=NP than if P=NP is proven.
20:15:23 <alise> AnMaster: it was only published by "accident".
20:15:34 <alise> P=NP doesn't mean much, the constant factor could be G_64.
20:15:51 <AnMaster> alise, but it *could* also be quite small
20:16:02 <alise> Could, yes, but that's the kind of assumption I'm not willing to make.
20:16:04 <AnMaster> alise, and did it stand up to other people checking it.
20:16:20 <AnMaster> alise, well indeed. I'm not assuming it is small.
20:16:44 <oerjan> AnMaster: it's only 3 days since it first appeared. experts are discussing it as we speak.
20:16:50 <AnMaster> I'm not assuming it is large either
20:17:03 <oerjan> the godel's letter blog had a post on it today
20:17:14 <cpressey> "However, the suitable track record of Vinay Deolalikar and his proof, which stated that P was smaller than NP for infinite time Turing Machines, lessen the chances of errors."
20:17:15 <AnMaster> okay so it passed outside this channel
20:17:47 <oerjan> AnMaster: um that P != NP proof has nothing to do with #esoteric
20:17:53 <AnMaster> cpressey, to me that looks slightly incoherent
20:18:06 <cpressey> oerjan: No no! Vinay is a long-time esolang enthusiast!
20:18:08 <fizzie> "“But enough question-dodging!” you exclaim. “Is the proof right or isn’t it? C’mon, it’s been like three hours since you first saw it—what’s taking you so long?” Well, somehow, I haven’t yet found the opportunity to study this 103-page manuscript in detail."
20:18:14 <oerjan> cpressey: there are lots of variations of P vs. NP question
20:18:20 <oerjan> cpressey: um you serious? :D
20:18:50 <fizzie> There's already this: http://scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=456 -- "If Vinay Deolalikar is awarded the $1,000,000 Clay Millennium Prize for his proof of P≠NP, then I, Scott Aaronson, will personally supplement his prize by the amount of $200,000. I’m dead serious—and I can afford it about as well as you’d think I can."
20:19:08 * alise ponders whether to install a Flash version with a known security vulnerability.
20:19:09 <AnMaster> oerjan, I thought someone in here claimed something about working on a secret P?=NP proof
20:19:17 <oerjan> cpressey: he _could_ be from here, not everyone here has revealed their real name
20:19:20 <alise> Hmm ... hmm ... yes.
20:19:27 <oerjan> AnMaster: oh that's cpressey :D
20:19:42 <cpressey> oerjan: It's *my claim* that he invented the following languages: Spray, SixBucks, and KomputerNO.
20:19:43 <AnMaster> oerjan, oh right, I initially thought we talked about that proof
20:19:57 <oerjan> but i sincerely doubt his real name is something indian
20:19:57 <AnMaster> oerjan, I have been on holiday, I haven't been able to keep up with news
20:20:06 <alise> cpressey: you forgot Findimate
20:20:07 <AnMaster> oerjan, only been on from slow hotel wlan a few hours every day
20:20:23 <alise> cpressey: And "Six Reversed Quail Sausages".
20:20:46 <cpressey> oerjan: "there are lots of variations of P vs. NP question" -- but I've *read* the def'n from the Millenium Prize committee, and I don't remember anything about "infinite time".
20:20:48 <AnMaster> * alise ponders whether to install a Flash version with a known security vulnerability. <-- why not go for a secure one... oh wait that is unlikely to exist
20:21:28 <alise> cpressey: http://logcom.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/15/5/577
20:21:58 <alise> AnMaster: they retracted the native 64-bit version
20:22:01 <alise> AnMaster: for linux
20:22:08 <alise> AnMaster: so the only available one is an older one with some known vulns
20:22:18 <alise> and i'm hideously irresponsible :)
20:22:27 <alise> AnMaster: has some mouse click issues and i think AV sync is a bit wonky
20:22:35 <alise> (sometimes/often mouse clicks won't register)
20:22:47 <AnMaster> alise, youtube? I find youtube-dl and mplayer or vlc gives better result anyway
20:23:06 <AnMaster> since the one in ubuntu and arch is too old to work with youtube atm
20:23:06 <oerjan> cpressey: by "variation" i mean other questions that are slightly different (often by adding an oracle)
20:23:12 <alise> Well ... the OS X users have a lovely browser plugin that replaces YouTube videos with an embedded native video player.
20:23:18 <AnMaster> it's a single file to download
20:23:20 <alise> But I don't think there's anything similar for other browsers.
20:23:57 <pikhq> alise: Shame, too.
20:24:06 <pikhq> The Flash player for Youtube sucks ass.
20:24:08 <cpressey> oerjan: OK, the article is sloppily referring to his *previous* (circa 2003) proof about infinite-time TMs. He has maybe extended the results to finite-time.
20:24:15 <fizzie> alise: There's some sort of "youtube enabler" for Firefox Mobile on N900 -- which I don't think did Flash properly, unlike the default browser -- that might do the same trick; haven't tried it.
20:24:16 <alise> Maybe I'll WRITE ONE! Okay, does anyone know if Greasemonkey is available for Midori?
20:24:29 <alise> It has user script support. Hoorj!
20:24:31 <oerjan> (in fact one of the main known obstacles to proving P ? NP is that the proof must not work if you add an oracle, because it's known that some oracles have P^O = NP^O and some have P^O != NP^O
20:24:32 <alise> "Youtube without Flash Auto"
20:24:37 <alise> Wow, what a coinkydink.
20:24:51 <alise> / @description Adds links below the Youtube video to (a) download the video (HD .mp4 file, no converters are used, no external sites) (b) view the video with an embedded external player (like mplayerplug-in or the totem plugin)
20:24:55 <alise> mplayer yay I like mplayer.
20:25:21 <alise> community/gecko-mediaplayer 0.9.9.2-1
20:25:22 <alise> Browser plugin that uses gnome-mplayer to play media in a web browser
20:25:28 <cpressey> oerjan: I never understood why you cannot simply say "I have a proof that P != NP when there is no oracle"
20:25:35 <fizzie> I think mplayer's plugin thing had some real issues way back then. But I'm sure it's been improved in the last five or so years.
20:26:23 <AnMaster> cpressey, "because no one thought of doing that"?
20:26:40 <cpressey> You can also say "I have a 'natural' proof that P != NP -- therefore certain one-way functions do [not?] exist" (or however that goes)
20:26:59 <oerjan> cpressey: of course you can, the problem is that _most_ methods in complexity theory allow you to add an arbitrary oracle to a proof
20:27:30 <cpressey> oerjan: I have no doubt we're using crap methods, is the thing :/
20:28:07 <alise> cpressey: natural proofs of P!=NP don't work, no?
20:28:19 <oerjan> cpressey: well hopefully this guy found a non-crap method :)
20:28:23 <alise> "Notably, assuming one-way functions exist, these proofs cannot separate the complexity classes P and NP."
20:28:34 <AnMaster> oerjan, did you look at alise's disprof of Riemann
20:28:47 <cpressey> "...it seems to introduce some thought-provoking new ideas, particularly a connection between statistical physics and the first-order logic characterization of NP." from Scott Aaronson's blog.
20:28:59 <oerjan> AnMaster: i looked at the page, then my brain promptly ran away screaming
20:29:00 <alise> Statistical physics.
20:30:05 <cpressey> I sure hope it's mathematically defined.
20:30:26 <cpressey> "We measured the running time of several Turing machines and concluded that..."
20:30:50 <AnMaster> alise, btw that disproof you made was done by some proof checker right?
20:30:58 <AnMaster> it has a certain structure to it
20:31:13 <alise> AnMaster: i used a CAS to simplify the expressions though
20:31:22 <cpressey> If the proof checker in question is Alise, maybe
20:31:27 <AnMaster> alise, anyway yeah I can't help you check it due to my brain also running away screaming
20:31:36 * alise runs away screaming for effect
20:31:58 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistical_physics
20:32:05 <cpressey> alise: Maybe you should take it to ##math or whatever it is. (Haha.)
20:32:38 <cpressey> The thing is, you see, and I hesistate to point this out but, you see, um well, Turing machines aren't physical, er, objects, you know?
20:32:52 <alise> cpressey: Presumably it's using some other facet of statistical physics ...
20:32:53 <AnMaster> alise, but if the proof was that short I strongly suspect someone else would have found it by now. Of course it could be correct, but you shouldn't be disappointed if it isn't
20:32:57 <cpressey> *Mathematical results from statistical physics* I have no problem with.
20:33:04 <alise> AnMaster: I won't be, I'm just interested.
20:33:09 <cpressey> But those are properly *in Statistics*, not physics.
20:33:19 <alise> AnMaster: anyway there is /some/ evidence to suggest that a simple proof of Fermat's Last Theorem is possible
20:33:25 <alise> i.e. proof sketches with just a few "hard" holes
20:33:38 <oerjan> cpressey: apparently random SAT instances are involved in the proof, i recall
20:33:54 <cpressey> oerjan: That sounds extremely likely.
20:34:13 <AnMaster> alise, sure. No one has found that yet though. Maybe those holes takes a lot of stuff to fill?
20:34:19 <alise> AnMaster: Perhaps.
20:34:56 <cpressey> Actually, Shannon had some proof a long time ago that "a randomly constructed formula has a big circuit", but for some reason that doesn't prove P != NP, although it totally should.
20:35:33 <cpressey> And I should totally be writing unit tests for my huge-ass infrastructure refactor right now.
20:37:51 <oerjan> <alise> IIRC there is a Monad instance in the standard library which is not a functor (in the mathematical sense); this is an egregrious abuse, but there you go.
20:37:56 <cpressey> How well do I think Scott Aaronson can afford to give away 200 grand?
20:38:08 <oerjan> the functor law follows from the monad laws, surely
20:39:15 <oerjan> well, i mean it must also break a monad law, then
20:39:31 <alise> oerjan: I really don't recall
20:40:33 <oerjan> liftM f x = x >>= return . f
20:40:54 <oerjan> x >>= return . id = x >>= return = x, monad law
20:42:19 <oerjan> x >>= return . (f . g) = x >>= \t -> return (f (g t)) there has to be some way to use the third monad law there
20:42:20 <cpressey> " If P≠NP is proved, then to whatever extent theoretical computer science continues to exist at all, it will have a very different character."
20:42:38 <cpressey> So... the proof DESTROYS THEORETICAL COMPUTER SCIENCE? Bitchen!
20:43:07 <alise> How on earth will it change anything, it's the status quo
20:43:31 <cpressey> I think that's a friggin' narrow view of "theoretical computer science".
20:43:37 <fizzie> alise: He thinks the proof will need so unbelievably earth-shaking paradigm-shifting insights, TCS will be all about it for the rest of time.
20:43:41 <pikhq> alise: Goodness, midori is a nice browser.
20:43:48 <alise> fizzie: Who said that?
20:43:57 <alise> pikhq: BTW, enable the Customise Toolbar extension to get rid of that irritating Sidepanel button.
20:43:58 <fizzie> alise: Himself, paraphrased a bit by myself.
20:44:00 <pikhq> It has... A few handy features, and nothing stupid getting in the way.
20:44:03 <pikhq> And yes, I did that.
20:44:15 <oerjan> (x >>= (return . g)) >>= (return . f) = x >>= \t -> (return (g t)) >>= return . f
20:44:21 <cpressey> alise: This is Scott Aaronson, if that wasn't clear.
20:45:03 <oerjan> = x >>= \t -> (return . f) (g t) = x >>= return . f . g, Q.E.D.
20:45:07 <alise> Strange. He's usually so smart.
20:45:54 <fizzie> alise: It was the immediately preceding bit from cpressey's quotation: "P≠NP is exactly the ‘expected’ answer! But proving that expected answer has been the central goal of the field for 40 years—not so much (in my opinion) because the answer itself is in serious doubt, as because of how much will need to be learned about computation on the way to the proof."
20:46:21 <alise> Comments are the peanut gallery of the internet.
20:50:45 <alise> Why won't mplayer wooork
20:55:02 <pikhq> Now if only there were ways to disable some other features.
20:55:07 <pikhq> For instance, the URL completion.
20:55:11 <alise> pikhq: I like it :(
20:55:41 <alise> Does anyone know how to configure hardware audio volume from Linux?
20:55:44 <alise> As in literal speaker volume,
20:55:46 <pikhq> Still, least irritating browser...
20:55:59 <alise> pikhq: I thought you liked Conkeror?
20:56:02 <pikhq> Or at least, least irritating 'normal' one.
20:56:20 <pikhq> alise: I do, but its UI sometimes clashes with sites.
20:59:47 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
21:00:48 <cpressey> alise: Since you used a theorem prover to help reformat your proof -- why not use it to check it?
21:03:55 <pikhq> I quite like how WebKit doesn't suck, in contrast to Gecko.
21:07:09 <alise> cpressey: I didn't use a theorem prover.
21:07:21 <pikhq> Okay, Midori blithely ignores fontconfig. I have no idea how to get it to use an un-suck font for Japanese.
21:07:22 <alise> Also, no existing theorem prover has a complete enough formalisation of the reals to have the zeta function.
21:08:30 <alise> http://www.youtube.com/bipbopbipbop
21:09:01 -!- fruitbag has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
21:09:20 <alise> Two Minute Sync Test Not Actually Rotated
21:09:21 <alise> "Or maybe it's rotated 360 degrees! How will you know? (Hint: use complex analysis.)"
21:10:05 <alise> Awesome, AV sync works.
21:10:25 <cpressey> alise: But surely you could pack about half of it into a lemma that only needs a rudimentary understanding of the reals, and auto-prove that, leaving the remainder easier to check.
21:10:49 <alise> cpressey: you have to manually prove
21:10:52 <alise> it just checks the proof
21:10:55 <alise> (in an awkward format)
21:11:02 <alise> cpressey: Turns out theorem provers are a bit of a bitch. Anyway, my disproof is not very long.
21:11:04 <cpressey> Yes, I know - you've already *done* that though
21:11:05 <alise> It shouldn't be hard to verify.
21:11:18 <alise> I only used a computer to simplify some simple expressions.
21:11:19 <cpressey> What have you written, if not a proof?
21:11:26 <alise> I've written a proof.
21:11:33 <alise> But not in the format it'd accept, which accepts no handwaving at all.
21:11:58 <cpressey> Yes, I'm only suggesting you rewrite (as much of it as you can) in that format.
21:12:29 <alise> Or I could just persuade oerjan to take a look at it. :)
21:13:08 <AnMaster> alise, handwaving isn't really accepted anywhere in math. It isn't like people try to routinely hand-wave use of not yet proved hypotheses and so on. Oh wait, they are.
21:13:20 <alise> Handwaving is very much accepted for trivial things.
21:13:29 <alise> You think Wiles' FLT proof would have been simple if it proved every single thing it stated?
21:13:44 <AnMaster> alise, yes I know. I was joking
21:13:50 <alise> Also, yeah, exactly, if my disproof is correct that's quite a bit of mathematics out the door...
21:13:56 <alise> So much stuff just implicitly depends on the Riemann hypothesis.
21:18:08 <AnMaster> alise, but I would say the chances of it having a small but important flaw is more than 50%, considering how much time has been spent on trying to prove or disprove it
21:18:28 <alise> Wiles' first proof had a major flaw, but it was corrected.
21:19:19 <AnMaster> alise, actually he had to redo large parts to fix it iirc
21:20:33 <alise> Large but not immense.
21:20:51 <AnMaster> alise, but that is only because the complete proof was huge
21:21:24 <pikhq> Hooray, I've got HTML 5 video on youtube working.
21:21:43 <alise> pikhq: Me too; with what?
21:21:48 <AnMaster> alise, iirc it proved one or two other open problems that it then used in the "main" proof. That kind of gives you some "modularity".
21:21:49 <alise> Or do you mean YouTube's HTML5 support?
21:21:54 <alise> I've got it working with mplayer. Nyaah.
21:21:54 <pikhq> Youtube's HTML5 support.
21:22:10 <alise> I suggest using the YouTube Without Flash Auto userscript (with some tweaking).
21:22:14 <alise> Works fine with Midori (with some tweaking).
21:22:24 <alise> Supports native (likely mplayer), VLC and HTML 5.
21:22:25 <pikhq> (or pastebin of tweaks)
21:22:28 <alise> pikhq: I'll pastie you my updated version.
21:23:04 <pikhq> Still, just using <video> instead of Flash is so much nicer on the CPU.
21:23:04 <alise> pikhq: http://sprunge.us/iJHe
21:23:09 <alise> Enable the relevant extension, then copy to:
21:23:14 <alise> .local/share/midori/scripts
21:23:33 <alise> It puts some crap below the video, but load a video, click Preferences, set preferred quality to highest, and select the player of your choice.
21:23:38 <alise> I'm using native since HTML 5 doesn't work for me.
21:24:03 <alise> Oh, wait, one more modification:
21:24:04 <alise> linkViewFlash = ' ♦ <a class="link" id="restoreFlash">View Flash</a>';
21:24:51 <alise> pikhq: Then load a video, click Preferences, set default quality to highest, select player, save.
21:25:28 <alise> How did you get Midori's HTML5 player to work?
21:25:44 <pikhq> I installed gstreamer-plugin-faad , and the audio worked.
21:25:54 <pikhq> The other gstreamer plugins I already had installed.
21:26:41 <AnMaster> <pikhq> Still, just using <video> instead of Flash is so much nicer on the CPU. <-- youtube-dl + mplayer or vlc is quite nice too
21:27:20 <alise> gstreamer0.10-ffmpeg gstreamer0.10-bad gstreamer0.10-{bad,ugly}-plugins
21:27:27 <alise> AnMaster: Yes, but this embeds it automatically in the page.
21:27:38 <AnMaster> alise, also that one doesn't seem to support the 4k format
21:27:43 <alise> Turns out people usually watch insignificant videos on YouTube not worth waiting for the download.
21:27:47 <alise> The 4k? You mean that ridiculously over-HD thing?
21:27:51 <alise> Yeah, nobody uses that.
21:27:54 <pikhq> alise: Okay, so I have it installed, but it's not... Workin.
21:28:07 <alise> pikhq: I suggest installing the mplayer browser plugin then setting it to native.
21:28:11 <AnMaster> alise, yeah, I tried it. vlc told me it had to disable Xv due to only supporting up to 2048x2048 XD
21:28:11 <alise> Or installing VLC then setting it to VLC.
21:28:27 <alise> pikhq: Note: The mplayer plugin is a bit shit.
21:28:53 <alise> Well HTML5 now works with very staticy audio and shit.
21:29:00 <alise> I'm just installing VLC>
21:29:25 <AnMaster> hm iirc they dropped that, right?
21:29:39 <pikhq> alise: Doesn't appear to be in portage.
21:29:42 <alise> Yes; it was an April Fool's joke, obviously.
21:30:04 <AnMaster> alise, yes but since it was, you know, working, why wouldn't they just leave it there, but somewhat hidden
21:30:05 <alise> pikhq: That's because it requires "Gnome" mplayer and crap.
21:30:09 <alise> pikhq: Strong recommendation of VLC here.
21:30:25 <alise> pikhq: You might need to install a separate VLC plugin package.
21:30:35 <alise> AnMaster: Server resources. etc.
21:30:58 <alise> Plus I think it's Google policy to erase April Fool's jokes, presumably so they don't get clogged down with the baggage of years of them.
21:31:04 <alise> Or at least de facto Google policy.
21:31:26 <AnMaster> alise, actually they left tisp and such around
21:31:33 <AnMaster> alise, but with a note on the top of the page
21:31:34 <alise> That's just static HTML.
21:31:49 <alise> Google already have five billion pages on their website. :P
21:32:14 <alise> pikhq: You know tiling WMs that put little title bars above their windows? Do they reparent?
21:32:15 <AnMaster> alise, hm actually http://www.google.com/tisp/ doesn't have such a banner
21:33:46 <alise> pikhq: Can you do it without reparenting? There are non-reparenting tiling WMs, so...
21:33:53 <alise> I know dwm does very small window borders.
21:33:56 <alise> So a title bar isn't much more than that.
21:34:01 * pikhq quite likes having a little Flashblock userscript...
21:34:47 <alise> And why is the VLC plugin not working...
21:35:09 <alise> Great, it crashes Midori.
21:37:15 <alise> process 15183: arguments to dbus_connection_close() were incorrect, assertion "connection != NULL" failed in file dbus-connection.c line 2833.
21:37:15 <alise> This is normally a bug in some application using the D-Bus library.
21:37:15 <alise> D-Bus not built with -rdynamic so unable to print a backtrace
21:38:25 <alise> Which is indeed the error I get when running Midori.
21:39:06 <pikhq> Interesting. The HTML-5 version of videos is generally higher *quality*.
21:39:22 <pikhq> Flash sucks so much it makes the video blocky.
21:39:32 <alise> pikhq: So your HTML5 player works??
21:40:02 <pikhq> alise: Just having Youtube's HTML5 support on works fine.
21:40:25 <alise> As does mine, apparently.
21:40:52 <pikhq> However, it doesn't work well if it's going to *scale*...
21:41:00 <pikhq> Presumably the scaling used is still naive.
21:41:20 <alise> pikhq: The volume control is hideously broken.
21:41:29 <alise> It doesn't reflect the volume you click.
21:42:05 <alise> pikhq: Well, you can't drag the volume control.
21:42:14 <alise> Also.. the player doesn't show what's buffering.
21:42:39 <cpressey> Theorem (Shannon): With probability at least 1 - o(1), a random function f:{0,1}n → {0,1} requires a circuit of size Ω(2n/n).
21:42:42 <pikhq> Sadly, any video that's been put up by an "official" source still demands Flash for no good reason.
21:42:48 <alise> pikhq: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XITHbsUUlYI
21:42:51 <alise> pikhq: Try this in 1080p.
21:43:12 <alise> cpressey: that's hawt.
21:43:34 <cpressey> alise: That *particular* adjective I would honestly never have occurred to me.
21:44:05 <pikhq> Gah, it doesn't show the damned buffering right.
21:44:12 <alise> pikhq: See, I told you.
21:44:25 <pikhq> However, it actually decodes the video in realtime. That's a nice improvement.
21:44:31 <alise> pikhq: Proposal: Userscript that, on encountering a YouTube page, removes the whole page and replaces it with a native player. Nothing else. Nothing.
21:44:37 <alise> Well, a download link.
21:45:08 <pikhq> Sounds about right.
21:45:55 <AnMaster> <alise> pikhq: Can you do it without reparenting? There are non-reparenting tiling WMs, so... <-- what is wrong with reparenting?
21:45:59 <alise> cpressey: that theorem is beautiful, where's the proof?
21:46:14 <alise> AnMaster: WM crashes -> everything crashes; change WM -> everything has to close; + more complex code
21:46:54 <alise> (For the purpose of extracting files!)
21:46:59 <AnMaster> alise, so um twm isn't reparenting? Because when I initially installed slackware I once did killall twm; kwin &
21:47:11 <cpressey> alise: one awful place, but the first i found, has a sketch: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:aqregIHR3j8J:www.cs.caltech.edu/~umans/cs151/lec6.ppt+shannon+random+formula+circuit&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a
21:47:25 <alise> oh wait i deleted them lmao.
21:47:39 <cpressey> " frustrating fact: almost all functions require huge circuits "
21:48:24 <alise> Startrek Voyager S01 S07 Complete » tv shows star trek video television
21:48:26 <alise> The worst torrent.
21:48:52 <alise> "Star.Trek-All.11.Films.1080p.Bluray.x264.AC3-5.1-PeN"
21:49:02 <Sgeo> A half-bad torrent?
21:49:04 <alise> They missed out Galaxy Quest, though.
21:49:12 <alise> Sgeo: It's Voyager. It's ALL bad.
21:49:18 <Sgeo> I meant the films one
21:49:25 * pikhq tries mplayer with youtube-dl -g in hopes of streaming youtube videos with mplayer
21:49:34 <alise> Sgeo: http://torrentz.com/be85b3578f87c5dc739ad72cceeb3c84d1caecd1 A lot of seeders.
21:49:41 <alise> However, I'd refuse the last one, seeing as it's not in original Bl-Ray format.
21:49:53 <alise> pikhq: Erm, just give it the get_video URL.
21:50:08 <alise> pikhq: Is .m2ts the raw stuff from the Blu-Ray?
21:50:58 <pikhq> alise: get_video URL?
21:51:14 <pikhq> And yes, .m2ts should be the transport strem from a Blu-Ray.
21:51:22 <alise> pikhq: the thing all these things pass to the video
21:51:27 <alise> the url of the actual .flv/whatever
21:51:32 <alise> pikhq: the thing all these things pass to the player
21:51:36 <alise> then just mplayer 'er up
21:51:42 <alise> pikhq: Blu-Ray does H.264 too, right?
21:52:01 <alise> pikhq: And if a film's released in .m2ts, it won't be released in H.264 too, will it?
21:52:37 <pikhq> m2ts is the MPEG2 transport stream, which is used for Blu-Ray.
21:52:59 <pikhq> It can contain an H.264 bitstream.
21:53:08 <alise> How can I tell, without downloading, which a film was released in?
21:53:11 <alise> Is there some online database?
21:53:29 <alise> Apparently VC-1 is also a popular Blu-Ray codec.
21:53:48 <alise> pikhq: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek_(film) has nothin'
21:54:54 <alise> pikhq: So if I don't care about bonus features, should I prefer the .m2ts or a Blu-Ray directory?
21:55:52 <pikhq> Any idea what fmt is used for "original quality" on Youtube? :P
21:56:27 <alise> pikhq: 38 for 4K, 37 for 1080p
21:56:28 -!- cheater99 has joined.
21:56:48 <pikhq> I was just curious.
21:57:17 <alise> Of course, that could change.
21:57:46 * cpressey needs molecule-level resolution
21:58:10 * alise sets the .m2ts downloading.
21:58:22 <alise> Now if only I had hardware that could /comfortably/ decode HD, and the HDTV was in this room.
21:59:01 <alise> cpressey: does that theorem have a specific name?
22:00:04 <alise> Any good torrent clients anyone can recommend?
22:00:24 <cpressey> alise: Apparently it's *not" "Shannon's Theorem", but it bloody well should be.
22:00:26 <alise> One with a daemon/client architecture would be good so I can avoid extra windows/terminals but still check on it.
22:01:31 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
22:01:49 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, incidentally, have you heard of the Conservative Bible Project?
22:01:50 <fizzie> I've used Transmission a few times; it's preety simplistic, but I do think there was a daemon.
22:01:54 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yes!
22:02:12 <fizzie> I'm not quite sure whether the regular frontend spoke to the daemon, though.
22:02:19 <alise> fizzie: Apparently so.
22:02:24 <alise> wrt there being a daemon
22:02:51 <cpressey> alise: And yes, I agree. It is "hawt".
22:03:10 <cpressey> Sorry, I can't bring myself to say it without quotes.
22:03:23 <fizzie> There's at least a "transmission-remote" command line tool to speak to the daemon.
22:03:38 <fizzie> I also recall some sort of browser interfacey.
22:03:46 <alise> The transmission-daemon program is a daemon-based Transmission session that can be controlled via IPC commands by transmission-remote(1)
22:03:59 <alise> cpressey: Don't be afraid! There is a whole world of saying-"hawt"-ness out there if you just embrace it.
22:04:09 <alise> Although nobody is ever quite sure how to pronounce it!
22:04:18 <alise> Is it "hauwht"? "hot"? "haute"?
22:04:42 <pikhq> Hrm. Seems that mplayer doesn't handle caching well when *seeking* in a stream.
22:05:13 <pikhq> Would having it just cache before going back to playing after a seek be too much?
22:05:39 <pikhq> *Otherwise*, though, mplayer + youtube-dl -g --max-quality=22 works nicely.
22:06:34 <alise> "Maximum peers per torrent:"
22:06:37 <alise> Guh, why would you want this?
22:07:17 <cpressey> Maybe, you don't like having too many peers, in your torrent, so you want to limit the number of peers, to a maximum.
22:07:42 <alise> Apparently it's actually a bit slowy-downy if it's too high due to your upload being chopped into tiny little pieces.
22:08:42 <alise> cpressey: In my way, there would be a configuration file, and if you didn't like the option that lets you limit the number of peers because maybe you want to have unlimited peers, you could disable the option, in the configuration file.
22:09:38 <alise> "A Colbert Report interview featured this project." --http://www.conservapedia.com/Conservative_Bible_Project
22:10:04 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:20:54 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: _maybe_. the purported proof first appeared only 2-3 days ago and the experts have only barely started picking it apart to find flaws yet. what's unusual is that it's not an obvious crank proof, but it's 100 pages long and there are still many ways it could have an error.
22:22:59 * oerjan notes the discussion on the Godel's Letter blog is moving fast today, with a mixture of experts, cranks and spam
22:23:28 <cpressey> oerjan: You make me want to post a comment which is all three at once
22:24:32 <oerjan> cpressey: you cannot be both expert and any of the two others, imo
22:25:04 <cpressey> I... could be an expert spammer?
22:25:05 <ais523> experts can spam just like anyone else can
22:25:06 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, well, you can be an expert acting like a crank while spamming.
22:25:27 <oerjan> also your first post is moderated
22:25:58 <cpressey> Then I would just have to start off ALSO being a troll!
22:29:16 <oerjan> ais523: ok i guess there are very strong-opinioned experts. i haven't seen any on this blog yet though.
22:30:26 * oerjan might be biased from not reading many blogs
22:31:18 <oerjan> in the meantime, http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3436978/explain-the-proof-by-vinay-deolalikar-that-p-np/3437006#3437006
22:32:29 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: you could of course be an expert in a different field who went nuts * RIP Alexander Abian
22:33:43 -!- tombom__ has joined.
22:34:08 <oerjan> _that's_ not so unusal for cranks, i hear
22:35:23 <Ilari> P=NP? seems very difficult question. Heck, IIRC the lowest complexity class that is known not to equal P is EXPTIME...
22:35:54 <cpressey> "Specifically, we exploit the limitation that first order logic can only express properties in terms of a bounded number of local neighborhoods of the underlying structure."
22:36:35 -!- tombom_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:37:15 <oerjan> Ilari: strictly speaking TIME(f) for anything > all polynomials but < all exponentials should also work, no?
22:37:41 <oerjan> they're just not so famous i assume
22:38:31 <oerjan> alise: i think that's a quote from the paper
22:38:40 <cpressey> alise: It's from the supposed proof's abstract. I don't know what to make of that, is all. He's either onto something or... he... isn't.
22:38:59 <Ilari> Heck, it hasn't been yet provent that QBF requires superpolynomial time in worst case. And that would seem to be much easier to prove than to prove that P!=NP...
22:38:59 <cpressey> That in itself seems like quite an interesting claim.
22:39:38 <oerjan> Ilari: well QBF is in PSPACE, no? and P = PSPACE is also unsettled
22:39:59 <Ilari> QBF is the canonical PSPACE-complete problem.
22:40:06 <alise> you're downloading a huge (GBs) torrent
22:40:09 <alise> your upload gets maxed out
22:40:10 <alise> and you download barely nothing
22:40:12 <alise> right at the start
22:40:14 <alise> what is up with that
22:40:27 <oerjan> Ilari: oh i read it as BQP :D
22:40:31 <Ilari> Just like SAT is the canonical NP-complete problem.
22:41:55 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: quantified boolean formula
22:42:06 <alise> "Accept the Logic of Hell: applying logic with its full force and effect, as in not denying or downplaying the very real existence of Hell or the Devil."
22:42:14 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: It's beautiful isn't it.
22:42:20 <alise> I keep trying to make my sentences use Qu just to see it.
22:42:41 <oerjan> like SAT, except you're allowed to prepend things like "for _both_ X true and false" and "for _either_ X true or false"
22:42:45 <alise> Queues Are Quite Awesome, So Perhaps I, Quentin, Will Just Talk Like This.
22:42:54 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, have you seen the time Schlafly said one of his admins was a liberal because he forgot to capitalise "hell"?
22:43:01 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: :-D
22:43:16 <oerjan> s/prepend/use/, although you can move them all to the front iirc
22:43:39 <alise> "Last fall (2009) I taught Economics." Dear God.
22:44:01 <alise> Who let this madman teach economics?
22:44:13 <Phantom_Hoover> IIRC he used an example of a service that was actually a good and a good that was actually a service.
22:44:26 <alise> Imagine Computer Science.
22:44:30 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: You must now write a Quine.
22:44:38 <alise> "Turing was a known homosexual, and his ideas have little relevance."
22:44:44 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: e.g. for_all X (there_exists Y such that (X or Y)) where all the variables are booleans
22:44:57 <alise> I am so unhappy that the term "homeschooling" has been diluted by crazy people.
22:45:10 <alise> cpressey: & admin of Conservapedia.
22:45:19 <alise> & son of noted idiot extraordinaire.
22:46:01 <Ilari> Well, admin of Conservapedia => idiot extraordinare. But what is his father's claim to fame?
22:46:03 <alise> http://www.conservapedia.com/Mystery:Why_Do_Non-Conservatives_Exist?
22:46:16 <alise> Ilari: Sharing & propagating the same beliefs as his son.
22:46:34 <alise> Or was it Andy's son, I forget.
22:46:43 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phyllis_Schlafly
22:46:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Quite. I find these flamboyant ligatures quite spiffing.
22:46:57 <alise> Phyllis McAlpin Stewart Schlafly (pronounced /ˈfɪlɨs ˈʃlæfli/; born August 15, 1924) is an American conservative political activist and constitutional attorney known for her opposition to feminism and the Equal Rights Amendment.
22:47:25 <alise> Whaa--? Andy's Catholic?
22:47:31 <alise> But the Catholic Church /accepts/ evolution!
22:48:24 <Phantom_Hoover> You know how there was a ridiculous debate over some bit of wording?
22:49:33 <alise> But his church ... accepts ... evolution
22:50:06 <cpressey> I guess they also accept creationism
22:50:29 <alise> They believe that biogenesis was initiated by God.
22:50:39 -!- zzo38 has joined.
22:50:40 <alise> However, they then believe that evolution progressed normally -- although of course us humans are "speshul".
22:50:41 <Ilari> Some complexity classes have equivalent logic formulations. P is first order logic with least fixed point operator. NP is second order logic with existential operator only. PH is second order logic. PSPACE is second order logic with transitive closure operator.
22:50:54 <alise> So they brute forced the Rubik's Cube with Google's CPUs and found out that no position requires more than 20 moves to solve.
22:50:59 <alise> Another victory for brute force over mathematics!
22:51:05 <alise> If only we could brute-force statements about the reals.
22:51:43 <oerjan> Ilari: is this a quote from the paper? i recall reading it uses the first fact for P
22:51:52 <cpressey> Hey, let's brute-force the nxnxn generalization of Rubik's cube too.
22:52:07 <alise> n^n generalisation
22:52:15 <zzo38> I know some more things about the Catholic Church policy. They do not reject evolution (although some Catholics do), but they use creationism as well, and recognize it is not mutually exclusive, but not because humans are special or anything like that, but because evolution will not describe the grace of God.
22:52:19 <alise> DID I JUST BLOW YOUR MIND OH YEAH
22:52:30 <alise> zzo38: It's not a very coherent policy.
22:52:42 <alise> "Evolution happened, but oh yeah, God created us all in the state we are in now!"
22:52:50 <alise> "I have no problems accepting blatantly contradictory statements!"
22:52:51 <Ilari> I would seem that it should be "easier" to try to settle P=PH? (IIRC, that's equivalent to P=NP?)...
22:53:18 <oerjan> alise: in principle you can brute-force first-order statements about the reals. real closed fields are decidable that way.
22:53:20 <zzo38> Of course there is "theistic guided evolution", which is also some people's opinion.
22:53:32 <cpressey> If his P<NP proof is valid, I predict someone will simplify it
22:53:32 <alise> zzo38: That makes slightly more sense. It's about as much as you can reasonably expect from Christians.
22:53:44 <alise> (If they accepted evolution wholesale, they'd be contradicting the basic tenets of Christianity.)
22:54:05 <alise> cpressey: Any opinions on my Riemann hypothesis disproof? http://pastie.org/1082326.txt?key=kt6ybknat9le7iodnlxzxw
22:54:21 <cpressey> alise: Only that I'm allergic to the real line.
22:54:35 <alise> It's the complex plane, anyway.
22:54:42 -!- cheater99 has quit (Read error: Connection timed out).
22:55:38 -!- cheater99 has joined.
22:55:41 <zzo38> alise: I think the person who invented Perl is also both Christian and evolution.
22:55:46 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:55:56 <alise> zzo38: You have to believe God stepped in at some point, however.
22:55:57 <zzo38> Some people are. But some people are only one.
22:56:03 <alise> zzo38: Otherwise humans aren't special, destroying Christianity.
22:56:28 -!- derdon has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
22:56:35 <alise> zzo38: I dislike Larry Wall because he's a missionary...
22:57:15 <alise> I think it's pretty immoral to go and seek out random people who haven't been exposed to the world, its culture or its religion and just try and force your religion upon them.
22:57:38 <zzo38> alise: Yes, I believe you, especially doing it at random, it is just nothing useful
22:57:51 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
22:57:59 <zzo38> Now, a few people do it in a better way, but many people don't.
22:58:09 <Ilari> Apparently, if P!=PH, there exists language that second-order logic can describe, but can't be described using first order logic with least fixed point operator.
22:58:45 <alise> I love logic, especially the part where it makes no sense.
22:59:34 <alise> Sheesh, you'd think this torrent would go faster.
22:59:44 -!- augur has joined.
22:59:47 <alise> It's only a high-quality rip of a recent major movie release.
23:00:29 <alise> Probably the x264 re-encodes etc. are more popular than this unmodified Blu-Ray stream.
23:00:39 <alise> But still, 150 KiB/s? That's just piss-poor.
23:02:30 <alise> Does anyone here have a Usenet connection from one of the paid providers?
23:02:45 <alise> I'm wondering how good the coverage of material the binary groups have is.
23:03:27 <zzo38> Is the GNU GPL text available in TeX format?
23:03:34 <alise> Not as far as I know of.
23:03:43 <oerjan> `addquote <alise> I love logic, especially the part where it makes no sense.
23:03:48 <alise> zzo38: I'd just include it as \begin{verbatim}-ed stuff.
23:03:55 <zzo38> (And, I mean Plain TeX, rather than LaTeX)
23:04:01 <alise> zzo38: I'm not sure a modified version, even just for formatting as LaTeX, would count as the GPL, legally.
23:04:04 <alise> Definitely not Plain TeX.
23:04:04 <HackEgo> 210|<alise> I love logic, especially the part where it makes no sense.
23:04:15 <alise> Where's pikhq when you need him.
23:04:19 <alise> Anyone know mplayer?
23:04:23 -!- pikhq has joined.
23:04:32 <alise> Great timing! Hi pikhq.
23:04:41 <alise> pikhq: How can I tell mplayer "Scale this down until it fits on my screen, yo"?
23:04:48 <zzo38> However, even Plain TeX can do verbatim parts, although it involves changing category codes a lot.
23:05:16 <Ilari> Hmm: "However, LFP is too weak to express all polynomial-time properties of unordered structures (for instance that a structure has even size).".
23:06:28 <zzo38> Maybe it does not really count as the GPL legally, but if it is the same text, it should be the same thing, and the FSF is probably OK with that, as long as the computer copy includes the original unmodified plain-text copy of the GPL.
23:07:28 <alise> pikhq: I can't find an option to do it.
23:09:05 <zzo38> alise: Why not Plain TeX? Plain TeX is much more better than LaTeX
23:09:22 <alise> zzo38: Because that's only your opinion, and the vast majority of TeX users, including me, disagree.
23:09:36 <alise> zzo38: I am saying that the GPL is almost certainly unavailable in Plain TeX, due to its obscurity.
23:10:07 <alise> Wow, it seems that mplayer successfully synchronises the audio and video, even when resizing down full 1080p video.
23:10:51 <zzo38> Is it really obscurity?
23:11:14 <alise> LaTeX is almost universally used instead.
23:11:43 <alise> I'd estimate Plain TeX's user base is somewhere between 1,000-8,000.
23:11:58 <alise> Whereas LaTeX's user base is the entire mathematics, physics and computer science community, more or less.
23:12:04 <alise> Plus a lot of other users.
23:13:11 <zzo38> I found that the GPL is available in LaTeX, but the LGPL isn't. (The GPL is also available in ODF, the LGPL and AGPL isn't.)
23:14:59 <AnMaster> <alise> Wow, it seems that mplayer successfully synchronises the audio and video, even when resizing down full 1080p video. <-- on my desktop it uses X video extension to do resizing and such, meaning the GPU does the work
23:15:21 <alise> Yes, but the GPU in question is an onboard Intel card.
23:15:28 <AnMaster> alise, ah that changes stuff indeed
23:15:38 <AnMaster> I suspect it can to some degree
23:15:43 <alise> Anyway, I can't be for sure yet since the full file isn't there, making it hard to pass judgement on what is desync due to skipping in the life and what is legit desync.
23:15:55 <alise> But the little portion of continuous audio/video has mouths perfectly synchronised.
23:16:03 <zzo38> If I rewrite the GNU GPL in Plain TeX format, will the FSF accept it and make a copy?
23:16:08 <alise> Now I need to hatch a plot to get the HDTV in this room.
23:16:22 <AnMaster> alise, I'm not surprised they are synced. They usually are with proper video players on linux
23:16:38 <alise> AnMaster: Yeah, but in this case PulseAudio and ALSA both failed massively at it.
23:16:43 <alise> It's taken OSSv4 to get the latency low enough
23:16:44 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined.
23:17:09 <alise> It's a notebook that happens to be light, not a "light notebook" :P
23:17:23 <cpressey> It's a notebook MADE ENTIRELY OF LIGHT
23:17:32 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:17:39 -!- alise has changed nick to Phanlom_Hoover.
23:17:41 <AnMaster> cpressey, damn, you beat me to joking about that
23:17:44 -!- Phanlom_Hoover has changed nick to alise.
23:17:53 <zzo38> Why does nearly everyone disagree about Plain TeX being more better? But some people don't?
23:18:02 <alise> zzo38: Personal taste.
23:18:07 <AnMaster> * Phanlom_Hoover dies of shock <--- alise what...?
23:18:21 <AnMaster> zzo38, because it isn't better?
23:18:21 <alise> <alise> Lumenotebook.
23:18:24 <alise> Phantom_Hoover can explain.
23:18:32 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, please explain this
23:18:33 <zzo38> AnMaster: Explain why it isn't better?
23:18:59 <zzo38> I have used both Plain TeX and LaTeX, and in my experience, Plain TeX is much more better
23:19:09 <zzo38> AnMaster: Which date/time?
23:19:12 <alise> Well, everyone else here thinks you're wrong.
23:19:39 <zzo38> Do you know the date at least?
23:19:56 <AnMaster> zzo38, but why is plain tex better
23:20:15 <pikhq> 16:14 <+cheesworshiper> pikhq: Just remember you have to have SSH working before you can use it as a phone if you want to maintain your nerd rep.
23:20:33 <AnMaster> pikhq, what is the device in question?
23:20:34 <zzo38> For one thing, I can do many more things with Plain TeX. Also, Plain TeX can do cross-referencing without requiring two passes or an external makeindex program.
23:20:44 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
23:20:45 <zzo38> And no auxiliary files are required.
23:20:54 <AnMaster> zzo38, those extra things, examples?
23:20:58 -!- Flonk_ has joined.
23:21:08 <AnMaster> zzo38, you know, I let kile or lyx handle the building
23:21:20 <AnMaster> in both cases I just click a button or hit a key combo
23:21:25 <zzo38> What extra things, examples?
23:21:34 <AnMaster> "<zzo38> For one thing, I can do many more things with Plain TeX."
23:21:54 <zzo38> I have written yesweb in Plain TeX
23:21:57 <AnMaster> zzo38, is there and ready-made Plain TeX package for Karnaugh-diagrams?
23:22:09 <AnMaster> zzo38, or what about microtyping?
23:22:10 <zzo38> I don't even know what Karnaugh-diagrams is.
23:22:19 <zzo38> http://sprunge.us/MfJb
23:22:29 <zzo38> That is one example.
23:22:37 <AnMaster> zzo38, a tool used to minimize boolean functions, useful when doing electronic circuits
23:22:40 -!- Flonk has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
23:22:46 <AnMaster> had to typeset that in a lab report last spring
23:22:53 <AnMaster> there is of course a latex package for it
23:22:55 -!- Flonk_ has changed nick to Flonk.
23:23:07 <pikhq> AnMaster: Palm Pixi.
23:23:15 <AnMaster> pikhq, huh, never heard of that
23:23:33 <AnMaster> pikhq, also wasn't Palm like dead and undead several times over?
23:23:43 <zzo38> There are a lot of LaTeX packages for various things, but think Plain TeX does it better, if it doesn't exist I think someone can write codes for it
23:23:45 <alise> Palm Pixi = retarded Palm pre.
23:23:49 <alise> pikhq: Note that WebOS sucks shit.
23:23:53 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:23:58 <alise> By "shit" I mean "major shit".
23:24:29 <AnMaster> zzo38, well part of the point of LaTeX is that I don't have to write those things. I have deadlines, if I had to write all those I wouldn't be able to meet the deadlines
23:25:19 <zzo38> Is there a LaTeX package to do what yesweb does?
23:25:37 <AnMaster> sure I could write one of them probably, but not kaurnaugh and gauss and longtable and AMS and so on
23:25:46 <AnMaster> oh wait, AMS might exist for plain TeX
23:26:05 <alise> AnMaster: undeveloped since late 80s
23:26:28 <AnMaster> alise, well, there some sort of LaTeX support for the math symbols from AMS and some enviroments
23:26:39 <AnMaster> not sure if those are in AMS-TeX too
23:26:42 <alise> yeah, that's AMS-LaTeX.
23:26:55 <zzo38> Also, at least for me, I am more effective at Plain TeX, than at LaTeX. And writing the codes for some things should not be too difficult.
23:26:58 <alise> AnMaster: no... you use it every day
23:27:04 <alise> \usepackage{ams*} = AMS-LaTeX
23:27:08 <alise> \usepackage{amssym}
23:27:10 <alise> \usepackage{amsthm}
23:27:13 <alise> \usepackage{amsfonts}
23:27:17 <AnMaster> alise, well yes, but I use qmail every day. Doesn't mean it is in active development
23:27:33 <alise> well, "active" as in "it needs no changes anyway since it's very polished"
23:27:38 <alise> active like LaTeX development
23:27:50 <AnMaster> alise, so active like qmail too then
23:28:50 <AnMaster> alise, and how the heck anyone can write as reliable C code for something as complex as qmail still confuses me. I guess djb is superhuman.
23:29:51 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't get why people view C as a good intellectual exercise.
23:30:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Memory leaks versus monads: which is harder to understand.
23:30:12 <cpressey> AnMaster: 1) be a mathematician 2) do not use the standard library
23:30:23 <zzo38> It confuses me how a good programmer *cannot* write reliable C codes for a thing like that. It should be possible for any good programmer to do, without too much difficulty
23:30:34 <AnMaster> I just claimed it was tricky to write non-trivial non-buggy C code
23:30:46 <cpressey> zzo38: Are you a ham radio operator?
23:31:04 <AnMaster> cpressey, out of interest, why that question
23:31:07 <zzo38> cpressey: No. But I was thinking about doing so some time in the future, possibly (or possibly not)
23:31:25 <AnMaster> <cpressey> AnMaster: 1) be a mathematician 2) do not use the standard library <-- you still need to interface the OS with read() and write() or such then
23:31:43 <AnMaster> cpressey, hard to avoid malloc() and friends as well. Plus a few other calls
23:31:51 <alise> zzo38: your code barely ever checks errors
23:31:59 <alise> so i wouldn't be so quick to blame other programmers
23:32:04 <alise> (at least what i've seen on it)
23:32:15 <cpressey> AnMaster: Your pedantry is adorable.
23:32:17 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: I do sometimes write a very small program directly in machine-codes
23:32:31 <AnMaster> cpressey, of course. That is part of my job here
23:32:31 <alise> cpressey: Adorable for a value of adorable equal to unbearable.
23:32:36 <zzo38> alise: Yes, it does not check a lot of errors, just to make it efficient, though
23:32:42 <alise> AnMaster: read() and write() are syscalls, you dumbass.
23:32:51 <alise> (Yes, there exists a libc wrapper, but it just calls the syscall directly.)
23:32:58 <alise> zzo38: Checking errors isn't inefficient...
23:33:08 <AnMaster> alise, well I'm pretty sure qmail uses libc there
23:33:11 <alise> zzo38: It takes ~0 time.
23:33:27 <zzo38> I do usually check some errors
23:33:34 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, zzo38 doesn't have the same definition of "good" as us mortals.
23:33:44 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I do realise /that/.
23:33:58 <alise> Quite a lot I realise that.
23:34:06 <alise> Quinn, Quite a Lot, realises Quadratics are Quines.
23:34:14 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, If I were a mathematician I would generalise that to "zzo38 doesn't have the same definition of * as us mortals"
23:34:17 <Phantom_Hoover> OTOH writing if (!(ptr = malloc(whatever))) constantly will give you RSA.
23:34:35 <zzo38> What does RSI means?
23:34:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Forall x, zzo38 doesn't have the same definition of x as us mortals
23:35:00 <alise> zzo38: Repetitive Strain Injury ...
23:35:03 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, fail. Use unicode for that
23:35:13 <zzo38> alise: O, that is it.
23:35:15 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: that's why you define xmalloc :P
23:35:20 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, oerjan could use a glob
23:35:27 <zzo38> If checking errors is important you can make a macro or extra function
23:35:49 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, that proves my point doesn't it?
23:36:26 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, but oerjan would probably use a glob
23:36:33 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, also compsci is really quite like math
23:36:43 * pikhq types in the Konami code
23:37:10 <zzo38> You tell me how many things in my codes is you considered to be bad codes: http://sprunge.us/eKMF (Sometimes I find things I don't like in my own codes, and fix it, but usually that is not the case)
23:38:15 <alise> for (;;) is very common.
23:38:19 <alise> only idiots use TRUE.
23:38:45 <AnMaster> err sorry, I meant of course that is very 1
23:38:45 <zzo38> See? We already all disagree about how bad my codes are!
23:39:01 <alise> only idiots use TRUE in C.
23:39:31 <alise> #define whilst while
23:39:55 <alise> whilst logic holds
23:39:55 <AnMaster> zzo38, you don't check return value of fprintf(texout,"%s\n",s); for example
23:39:57 <cpressey> I think that was really in the official Amiga OS API includes.
23:40:29 <cpressey> I had the RKM, which was basically a printout of them. I lived off that thing for months
23:40:59 <AnMaster> zzo38, checking your input parsing would take more work, and I'm too tired for that atm
23:41:33 <zzo38> Why do I need to check return value of fprintf(texout,"%s\n",s);
23:41:38 <alise> Even K&R hate you for that.
23:41:53 <zzo38> But I just type for(;;) it works fine
23:43:12 <zzo38> (AnMaster: It is easier to read my program if you print it out, in case you care)
23:43:25 <alise> Or just run it through TeX ...
23:43:53 <zzo38> You have to run it through Enhanced CWEB first, before using TeX or a C compiler
23:44:39 <zzo38> It will automatically print the index and table of contents, from this file
23:45:34 <zzo38> alise: No, I am not using yesweb. For C programs, Enhanced CWEB is more better, in my opinion.
23:45:43 <alise> zzo38's NEW & IMPROVED literate programming system
23:46:00 <zzo38> But yesweb can be used for generic language-independent literate programming.
23:46:14 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Yes.
23:46:38 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, incidentally, that Wiles proof of Fermat's Last theorem is so *ugly*.
23:48:23 <Phantom_Hoover> In fact, no existing OSes are written with Enhanced CWEB!
23:49:05 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, of course that is right, Enhanced CWEB has not been out for long enough anyways, and even if it is, that doesn't seem much likely
23:50:33 <zzo38> There is two kind of literate programming systems, ones specific for certain programming languages, and ones for generic use, so, I have both kinds available. I think if you are writing programs in C, ones specific to C is more better, and so on. But generic use ones are needed for ones with multiple programming languages and everything like that in one file
23:53:49 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, I think OS design would be considerably improved if Enhanced CWEB was involved.
23:54:32 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: I think you are right, it can be.
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23:58:17 <zzo38> (Other generic use literate programming systems include noweb and newfangle. The name "yesweb" is just a play on words from "noweb". But newfangle has the weave program implemented as LaTeX macros, but the tangle program is written in AWK. But yesweb has both tangle and weave implemented using Plain TeX.)
23:59:06 <cpressey> Everything should be written in R.
23:59:54 <zzo38> cpressey: Then learn about writing program in R, perhaps try to write a program in R, if you want to try to do so?
00:00:28 <cpressey> Well it's either that, or get a ham radio operator's license, clearly.
00:00:38 -!- relet1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
00:01:36 <cpressey> Nope. But I know you're excited about it.
00:01:58 <cpressey> I use a font called (I think) "Crap Windows Font"
00:03:15 <Phantom_Hoover> I was going to s/// on that, but it's way better that way.
00:08:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, why is Basic generally viewed as an offence to computing?
00:08:12 <cpressey> Ooh. I dunno about your client, but my client displays that right-justified.
00:08:34 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Because the masses do not understand the beauty of GOTO.
00:09:16 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Hey, you asked.
00:10:12 <cpressey> I will design a language and put up a sign that says "DO NOT WRITE CRAP CODE IN THIS LANGUAGE" and it will be the best language.
00:11:08 <Phantom_Hoover> How about make it reject any programs with spelling or grammatical errors in the comments or procedure names?
00:17:00 <zzo38> GOTO is sometimes useful. But sometimes there is better ways, depending on what programming language you use and what you are trying to do with it.
00:18:26 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: I disagree.
00:20:38 <zzo38> I want to write a feat and spell in D&D game called "Merciful to Gibbering Mouthers", so that my character can have that feat and that spell.
00:26:44 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
00:31:22 <zzo38> If you play D&D game which class/race/feat/spell you should prefer to use instead?
00:35:08 -!- tombom__ has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:38:50 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
00:47:23 * Sgeo still has yet to wrap his mind around thisContext
00:48:09 <oerjan> it's always either this or that
00:49:13 <alise> Sgeo: it's a souped-up continuation
00:49:17 <alise> basically a first-class representaiton of the call stack
00:49:28 <Sgeo> Is it always a MethodContext, or can it be a BlockContext?
00:49:42 <alise> Presumably the latter if you say thisContext in side of a block. Maybe.
00:49:47 <alise> Maybe blocks inherit it upwards for convenience.
01:04:51 -!- Killerkid has joined.
01:10:54 <alise> Killerkid: So you're a kid that kills?
01:13:05 <alise> Killerkid: And apparently doesn't speak.
01:15:08 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:20:24 -!- AnMaster has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net).
01:20:35 <alise> Quite Quit, Quine.
01:27:31 <Sgeo> I'm going to bite the bullet and try Squeak proper
01:29:30 <oerjan> if it squeaks, it's not a real bullet. i think.
01:32:14 <pikhq> Hmm. Now I have a good *reason* to typeset public domain books.
01:32:32 <pikhq> Now to wonder what the optimal dimensions are for a PDF on here.
01:36:38 <alise> Sgeo: Pharo IS Squeak proper.
01:36:45 <alise> Sgeo: They just improved a lot.
01:36:56 <alise> Sgeo: In fact, practically nobody recommends plain Squeak any more. Pharo is where it's at.
01:37:05 <Sgeo> Telemorphic looks fun
01:37:18 <alise> Pharo doesn't have its own tools or anything, it just bundles good shit that you'll use anyway, makes it look less like it was drawn with crayons, and is basically ongoing development.
01:38:20 <Sgeo> But does Pharo have stable FFI yet? I mean, it's the Squeak VM, yet somehow it seems up in the air
01:38:43 <alise> Squeak doesn't have a stable FFI either.
01:39:03 <Sgeo> Alien? Native FFI thingy?
01:39:27 <alise> Well, yeah, okay, so it is stable.
01:39:33 <alise> Pharo supports it too.
01:39:35 <alise> Pharo is based on Squeak, you know ...
01:39:46 <alise> I was just making a snarky reference to FFIs sorta being anti-Smalltalk.
01:45:17 <Gregor> alise: DEBIAN FOREVARZ
01:53:18 -!- alise has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:53:54 -!- alise has joined.
01:59:53 <Sgeo> Hmm, afaict, what was meant on the Pharo homepage was the possibility of being included with the default image
02:00:51 * Sgeo mutters about structs whose size is determined at runtime
02:02:17 * Gregor wonders why he just got a "lulz"
02:02:27 <Sgeo> Due to Alien limitations, I might need to write some C for this
02:02:43 <alise> Gregor: For saying "DEBIAN FOREVARZ"
02:02:57 <Gregor> Ah. I thought that's what "Quite." was to X-P
02:03:24 <zzo38> I don't think you can write structs whose size is determined at runtime, in C, you have to fake it. (GNU C offers some ways to fake it)
02:03:56 <alise> WHYY WON'T MY DNS CACHE FLUSH SO I CAN BE RID OF OPENDNS
02:04:01 <alise> zzo38: JUST USE MALLOC
02:04:07 <alise> I AM WRITING IN UPPER CASE, LIKE THE ROMANS DID.
02:04:13 -!- nooga_ has joined.
02:04:21 <nooga_> CTO http://theendisnear.no-ip.org/index.html
02:04:24 <alise> THAT IS BECAUSE I AM ROMAN; HENCEFORTH ALL OCCURENCES OF THE LETTER "U" SHALL BE REPLACED BY "V".
02:04:30 <alise> VRANVS IS A PLANET
02:05:00 -!- nooga_ has changed nick to nooga.
02:06:04 <zzo38> alise: You can use malloc but that doesn't change the size of a struct, it only changes the size of the memory allocated for it. GNU C allows you to have array size to be zero so that you can add the size
02:06:18 <nooga> romans invaded england
02:06:33 <nooga> you're not roman, you're english
02:07:24 <alise> VERILY I HAVE DISCOVERED VPON OCCASION THAT TALKING LIKE THIS IS THE MOST RELAXING THING A MEMBER OF MODERN SOCIETY CAN DO
02:08:47 <nooga> the mostrelaxing way of taling is talking like a troll
02:09:06 <alise> QVITE INACCVRATE MY GOOD SIR
02:11:00 <Gregor> THY DENIAL OF MERCY HAST CURS'T THOU TO A LIFE MOST FOVL.
02:11:42 <alise> GREGOR: CVRST, TOO
02:11:47 <zzo38> But I am different. I hav enot deny some mercy
02:11:51 <alise> THY DENIAL OF MERCY HAST CVRST THOV TO A LIFE MOST FOVL
02:11:52 <zzo38> s/hav enot/have not/
02:12:05 <alise> GREGOR: I SVGGEST VSING SED OR PERL
02:12:29 <Gregor> alise: THAT IS SO LAME. THERE ARE NO EWES IN THESE SENTENCES.
02:13:06 <alise> VERILY I HAVE DISCOVERED THAT VPON OCCASION THE FOLLOWING PERL SCRIPT IS VSEFVL:
02:13:08 <alise> PERL -PE 'S/[VV]/V/G' | TR 'A-Z' 'A-Z'
02:13:18 <alise> TRANSLATION TO NONROMAN FORM LEFT AS AN EXERCISE TO THE READER
02:14:14 <nooga> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Certificate_in_Advanced_English
02:14:32 <nooga> i'm going to pass that 'with flying colours'
02:14:38 <nooga> how cool is that!?
02:14:52 <alise> I DO NOT KNOW OF WHAT THE PVRPOSE IS TO THIS CERTIFICATE BVT HOWEVER I SVGGEST THAT IT IS INFERIOR TO THE CERTIFICATE IN STANDARD ROMAN
02:14:55 -!- alise has changed nick to ALISE.
02:15:27 <Gregor> Getting a little bit ahead of ourselves?
02:15:56 <ALISE> GETTING A HEAD OF YOVRSELF IS A POPVLAR ROMAN EVPHEMISM FOR AVTOFELLATIO
02:16:02 <nooga> it's just called ADVANCED
02:16:40 <Gregor> Don't count your chickens before they've hatched?
02:16:42 <ALISE> SOMEBODY LAVGH AT MY HILARIOVS GETTING A HEAD OF YOVRSELF JOKE
02:17:14 -!- Gregor has changed nick to NO_V.
02:17:15 <zzo38> This is the code you have to use, instead: l@>>perl.$> vvvv@d for(;;)}}{{{ ===@m ll.$THISISNOTAPIPE | pipetex texpipe |
02:17:37 <ALISE> OH THE BEAVTIFVL IRONY
02:17:38 * Sgeo installs Alien with a lot of help from #squeak
02:17:48 -!- NO_V has changed nick to Gregor.
02:17:57 * pikhq has determined that it is basically just painful to create a PDF for reading on a phone
02:18:13 <zzo38> Then don't create a PDF for reading on a phone
02:18:21 <ALISE> IT IS FVNNY BECAVSE YOVR NAME IS "NO_V"
02:18:34 <nooga> facite iudicium et iustitiam et liberate
02:18:34 <nooga> vi oppressum de manu calumniatoris et advenam et pupillum et viduam nolite
02:18:34 <nooga> contristare neque opprimatis inique et sanguinem innocentem ne effundatis
02:18:40 <zzo38> Use gzipped DVI format encoded in QR code
02:18:54 <nooga> this is from the city hall of my city
02:19:00 <nooga> how cool is that?!
02:19:25 <ALISE> YET YOV VTILISED THE LETTER "V"
02:19:50 <ALISE> <NOOGA> FACITE IVDICIVM ET IVSTITIAM ET LIBERATE
02:19:51 <ALISE> <NOOGA> VI OPPRESSVM DE MANV CALVMNIATORIS ET ADVENAM ET PVPILLVM ET VIDVAM NOLITE
02:19:52 <ALISE> <NOOGA> CONTRISTARE NEQVE OPPRIMATIS INIQVE ET SANGVINEM INNOCENTEM NE EFFVNDATIS
02:19:52 <ALISE> <NOOGA> IN LOCO ISTO
02:20:03 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
02:20:13 <pikhq> Let's see about a reader of free eBooks, then.
02:20:30 <ALISE> PIKHQ: WHY DID YOV BVY A CRAPPY PHONE?
02:21:12 <ALISE> PIKHQ ALSO I HAVE NOW ABANDONED THE VSE OF PVNCTVATION IT IS VNROMANLIKE
02:25:00 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
02:25:13 -!- augur has joined.
02:25:21 * ALISE PLAYS FIVE CLICKS TO JESVS
02:26:06 <nooga> PLEASE TRANSLATE MY QUOTE FORM CITY HALL ELEVATION
02:26:32 <ALISE> I VNFORTNATELY CANNOT READ LATIN
02:26:51 <nooga> DOUBLE V? ISN'T IT?
02:27:13 <pikhq> nooga: YES, THAT IS THE ETYMOLOGY
02:27:43 <pikhq> nooga: AND IT USED TO BE WRITTEN AS "VV" OR (ABOMINATION) "UU".
02:28:03 <ALISE> Gregor: [[Christianity in the United States]] does not link to Jesus. Can you believe that?
02:29:09 <ALISE> Gregor: Why is 5CTJ so slow?
02:29:38 <nooga> pikhq: where are you from?
02:30:06 <nooga> are you a native speaker of english?
02:30:43 <ALISE> i like to answer people's questions for them
02:30:44 -!- ALISE has changed nick to alise.
02:31:41 <nooga> this thread is about cut vs uncut nao!
02:32:19 <alise> Let's assume you're talking about films!
02:32:45 <pikhq> nooga: United States of America, and native speaker.
02:32:56 <alise> I ALREADY ANSWERED THE QUESTION FOR YOU
02:33:04 <alise> WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE, ANSWERING YOUR OWN QUESTIONS 'N SHIT
02:33:05 <nooga> pikhq: that's so rad
02:33:15 <alise> I'm a native speaker too, is that rad?
02:33:53 <nooga> i'm so awkward in using your native tongue
02:34:27 <alise> Don't worry, so are we.
02:36:23 <nooga> i can't understand Scots :|
02:37:02 <alise> the best laid plans o' mine an' men / gang aft agley
02:37:14 <nooga> i've been to a scottish house party with some guys from london
02:37:17 <alise> second line: gonna assume that's "gong", aft sounds like "oft"... Agley?!
02:37:17 <Gregor> alise: Because it is lame.
02:37:20 <alise> What the fuck, Burns?
02:37:28 <alise> Gregor: Make it cool.
02:37:35 <alise> "Cheez (music)" HOW DO I GET TO JESUS
02:38:16 <Gregor> -> some country -> religion in some country -> Christianity -> Jesus
02:38:33 <alise> Yeah, it should be harder.
02:38:36 <alise> Like "find the longest path to Jesus".
02:39:08 <alise> Gregor: It doesn't allow category pages :(
02:39:15 <Gregor> "Five clicks to Stalin"
02:39:26 <alise> Five clicks to FPGA
02:39:28 <nooga> and then i was stoned and i was talking with the londoners and trying to pick up a scottish girl and i failed because i couldn't understand her speaking
02:39:34 <alise> Five clicks to autoerotic asphyxiation
02:42:40 <Gregor> Five clicks to Wikipedia
02:44:15 <nooga> pive clicks to hell
02:45:40 <alise> Five clicks to Where You Started
02:46:03 <alise> Five clicks to Special:Random
02:46:40 <nooga> alise: one thing, how did you've manage to get from fpga to erotic asphyxiation?
02:47:10 <alise> although i gotta try that now
02:47:17 <alise> Gregor: new challenge
02:48:13 <nooga> i was coding for 8 hours straight, i guess i'm not in the best shape
02:50:24 <alise> Field-programmable gate array -> Ross Freeman -> Michigan -> United States of America -> Sexual revolution -> Sexuality -> Human sexuality -> Index of human sexuality articles -> Sexual fetishism ->
02:51:33 <alise> Field-programmable gate array -> Ross Freeman -> Michigan -> United States of America -> Sexual revolution -> Sexuality -> Human sexuality -> Index of human sexuality articles -> Sexual fetishism -> List of paraphilias -> Autoerotic asphyxiation
02:51:43 <alise> That's 10 clicks from FPGA.
02:51:52 <alise> Gregor: nooga: FPGA to autoerotic asphyxiation in less than 10 clicks. Go.
02:57:58 <Gregor> alise: I feel that I'm close ...
02:58:53 <nooga> United States of America -> Sexual revolution -> Sexuality -> Human sexuality -> Index of human sexuality articles -> Sexual fetishism -> List of paraphilias -> Autoerotic asphyxiation
02:59:14 <Gregor> "List of sex positions"'s picture of fellatio is of gay fellatio. I approve :P
02:59:31 <Gregor> In fact, its picture of cunnilingus is also gay. I also approve.
03:00:00 <nooga> Gregor: are you gay? :D
03:00:14 <Gregor> Depends who's asking :P
03:01:31 <alise> Gregor: How many clicks?
03:01:43 <Gregor> alise: I haven't gotten there yet, I got distracted by Wikipedia porn :P
03:01:54 <alise> The highest-quality of all porn!
03:02:54 <nooga> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BDSM <- not about Badly Developed Sadol Machine ;|
03:03:39 <Gregor> FPGA -> medical imaging -> organ (anatomy) -> sex organs -> sex -> category: human sexuality -> same as yours from here.
03:04:25 <nooga> but look at the rich references
03:05:39 <alise> Gregor: Categories are cheating dude
03:05:45 <Gregor> alise: So's your face.
03:07:19 -!- nooga has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
03:07:19 <Gregor> Actually, every picture on "List of sex positions" that's meaningful for gay couples is gay. Bahahahaha.
03:07:21 <alise> Including "cunnilingus"!
03:07:34 <alise> FPGA -> Bredboard -> Cutting board -> Vegetable ->
03:07:40 <alise> I sure hope I can rely on Wikipedia's perversity.
03:08:08 <alise> FPGA -> Breadboard -> Cutting board -> Vegetable -> Seed ->
03:08:33 <alise> FPGA -> Breadboard -> Cutting board -> Vegetable -> Seed -> Seed (disambiguation) ->
03:08:41 <alise> This is going to suck
03:09:29 <alise> FPGA -> Breadboard -> Cutting board -> Vegetable -> Seed -> Seed (disambiguation) -> Semen ->
03:09:57 <alise> FPGA -> Breadboard -> Cutting board -> Vegetable -> Seed -> Seed (disambiguation) -> Semen -> Autofellatio ->
03:10:04 <alise> If nothing else, this will be an amusing route.
03:10:16 <alise> FPGA -> Breadboard -> Cutting board -> Vegetable -> Seed -> Seed (disambiguation) -> Semen -> Autofellatio -> Autoeroticism ->
03:11:41 <myndzi> haha @ seed (disambiguation)
03:11:58 <alise> I was sort of going for the humour angle that time. :P
03:14:01 <alise> Well... I had best be going soon.
03:14:07 <alise> Have to be up at 8 and all.
03:15:15 -!- sshc_ has joined.
03:17:15 <alise> I AM TOTALLY GONE LOL (i'm not)
03:18:07 -!- sshc has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
03:21:19 <alise> I will now be disapparating.
03:21:50 -!- alise has quit (Quit: Leaving).
04:01:08 <Gregor> http://www.cs.purdue.edu/people/images/graduate_students/gkrichar.jpg Wow, this is like, the worst picture of me ever.
04:01:18 <Gregor> Why has my face shrunk into the center of my head?
04:01:23 * Sgeo reads about Newspeak
04:01:34 <Sgeo> While the model sounds fun, I'm not grokking the syntax
04:01:41 <Sgeo> And afaict, it's not particularly mature
04:02:04 <oerjan> the syntax is doubleplusgood. duh.
04:02:28 -!- cpressey has joined.
04:02:41 <Sgeo> Actually, how does E handle security? With capabilities like Newspeak?
04:09:33 <Ilari> Sgeo: E has capabilities as central concept...
04:13:40 <cpressey> I take is this is not Wouter's E under discussion...
04:13:49 <pikhq> I hate piracy. And not for any typical reasons.
04:14:03 <pikhq> I hate piracy because MP3 is still the default, not FLAC.
04:15:04 <Gregor> MP3 -> FLAC is a pretty insane jump to imagine.
04:15:09 <Gregor> Let's imagine MP3 -> AAC
04:20:25 <Gregor> http://codu.org/pics/main.php?cmd=imageorig&var1=Assorted%2Fmyeye-2010-08-07-4.jpg I ANSWER YOU WITH AN EXTREME CLOSEUP OF MY EYE
04:23:16 <cpressey> No R package for Intrepid, it seems. Pity.
04:24:28 <cpressey> "R is an implementation of the S programming language..." OMG, that's like my pet peeve *in reverse*.
04:24:55 <cpressey> At least they're up front about it being an environment.
04:24:57 <Gregor> Your pet peeve is ... languages and implementations being one in the same?
04:25:27 <Gregor> Plof's implementation is named cplof, do I win a cookie?
04:30:16 <cpressey> "configure: error: No F77 compiler found
04:31:29 <cpressey> I often see configure *check* for the existing of a Fortran compiler, but I've never seen it actually *care* before.
04:32:18 <cpressey> A... yup. R requires Fortran 77. Noice.
04:32:42 <cpressey> And I found the Ubuntu package, so... tempting as it is to build from source...
04:34:47 <cpressey> Yes! Selecting the package selected a bunch of F77 packages as deps...
04:34:48 <Gregor> I've used R. The combination of how terrible R is with the fact that it requires Fortran makes me feel ... so dirty ...
04:35:07 <cpressey> Ooh. It's terrible you say? Now I'm even more intriughed.
04:35:45 * cpressey stops himself from typing *intrigued.
04:36:25 <cpressey> I figure it must have miserable string processing, so I was wondering how bad it would be for esolang implementation.
04:38:49 <pikhq> I love having root on my phone.
04:40:18 <pikhq> Hmm. Now, should I start by replacing my kernel?
04:42:31 <Sgeo> Any opinions on Newspeak programming language?
04:50:17 <cpressey> Newspeak fails to excite me. It could be OK.
04:53:18 <cpressey> Y'know, one could make a programming language whose programs consist only of the names of other programming languages.
04:54:17 <oerjan> using fortran's comment convention looks like a good bet, then, iirc
04:55:29 <oerjan> we have Go for flow control
04:57:49 <cpressey> Boo presumably throws an exception...
04:58:27 <oerjan> Logo should be good for picture data
04:59:22 <pikhq> The Palm Pixi becomes pretty awesome when you "jailbreak" it.
04:59:37 <pikhq> (and by "jailbreak" I mean "use the official SDK")
05:00:00 <Sgeo> Disconnecting soon
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05:01:23 <cpressey> String concatenation in R! Yes, 'sep=""' is required. Otherwise you get "pika chu".
05:09:59 <pikhq> And now, a terminal...
05:13:21 <cpressey> And to get output to stdout without implementation-added noise, you have to say write(5,file=""). I'm noticing a pattern here...
05:27:39 <Sgeo> Newspeak or E?
05:27:51 <Sgeo> I like Newspeak's "no static data" stuff
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06:43:19 <pikhq> My fucking phone runs Pulseaudio.
06:43:24 <pikhq> No joke, they put Pulseaudio on here.
06:45:31 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Pulseaudio is the daemon that breaks your audio!
06:46:07 <pikhq> I hate abstraction layers on top of abstraction layers.
06:47:01 <Mathnerd314> well, Pulseaudio is probably the final layer
06:47:22 <pikhq> ... Most programs then abstract the audio further.
06:47:40 <pikhq> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/00/Pulseaudio-diagram.svg
06:47:46 <pikhq> You may now vomit.
06:47:47 <Mathnerd314> curses, I knew I should have used the word "penultimate"
06:48:10 <pikhq> *You see how there are further daemons in there*?
06:49:22 <pikhq> And the Pulseaudio thing in the middle there is busy doing nothing that couldn't be done in ALSA or OSS.
06:50:26 <pikhq> (granted, some of it isn't *being* done there, but this is a flaw in the base audio stack, not something deserving of a behemoth-in-the-middle)
06:50:42 <Mathnerd314> the problem is scale. That diagram should have entries sized by LOC
06:51:24 <pikhq> The problem is that you get nearly-equivalent functionality without pulseaudio.
06:51:46 <pikhq> It is literally sitting there wasting CPU time.
06:51:52 <fizzie> Hey, my phone runs PulseAudio too. Everyone's doing it.
06:52:46 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: your computer is sitting there wasting CPU time right now, unless you're doing some distributed computing
06:53:17 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: When there is not any CPU time being *used*, the CPU sits *idle*.
06:53:34 <pikhq> When it's being used for no *reason*, the CPU is acting as a *space heater*.
06:54:16 <pikhq> (well, when it's being used at all, it acts as a space heater. Just soley as such when there's no point in it being used.)
06:55:21 <Mathnerd314> so... in your perfect universe, a computer uses no energy when you're using it, even if it's turned on.
06:56:35 <fizzie> It's reasonably close to that already; when idle, it uses a small-ish fraction of what it does when doing stuff.
06:56:50 <pikhq> When idle, most of it actually is off.
06:57:28 <pikhq> If this *weren't* true, there'd be hardly any temperature fluctuations based on usage...
06:58:08 <fizzie> (I don't know if PulseAudio's CPU use is a very terrible thing, though, it's more of a principle thing. And Pulse's at least idle when you're not bleeping audio out or in.)
06:58:27 <pikhq> Pulseaudio does work that doesn't need to be done. Hence, it is the single most retarded kind of thing, even if it doesn't effect all that much.
06:59:21 <pikhq> My desktop system has never ran Pulseaudio.
06:59:53 <pikhq> Linux audio works just fine without Pulseaudio being involved.
07:01:02 <fizzie> I do like the "you get a nice tool which can pipe the audio of different apps to different places" thing you get with it. I mean, yes, most apps do let you change the alsa device string somewhere, but it is often very clumsy.
07:01:33 <Gregor> pikhq: The funny thing is that pulseaudio came into popularity JUST in time to be useless.
07:01:42 <Gregor> pikhq: A couple years earlier and it would have been useful.
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07:02:08 <pikhq> fizzie: Yeah, but that really ought to be done in the libalsa layer...
07:02:43 <pikhq> Gregor: Yeah, before Alsa's mixing stopped being a pain.
07:03:24 <pikhq> (well. It has never been a pain if you had hardware mixing. As I did until a couple years ago. :P)
07:05:12 <fizzie> I also would've liked the network audio thing a couple of years ago, and I wouldn't necessarily stuff that into ALSA, but that's a bit specialized use-case.
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07:40:25 <fizzie> Also: last night I had a dream, where Gregor banned me and fungot from the channel, because he wanted to run something called OpenFungot; I think it was some sort of fungot variant that anyone could edit with a browser. (Although wouldn't that be called hackungot or something?) First #esoteric dream, I think, at least out of those I recall.
07:40:26 <fungot> fizzie: why isn't this working? please tell me.
07:40:50 <fizzie> fungot: Don't ask me, ask Gregor; he's the one whose idea it was!
07:40:52 <fungot> fizzie: get a perl one lying around on your build machine, which involves hacking the command processor full scheme? you're presenting a seemingly unfounded argument and then does everythign else on the hill or a new version
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07:51:16 <coppro> fact: I love arpeggios
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07:53:12 <fizzie> It's the Jxy effect in Impulse Tracker.
07:53:39 <fizzie> (Sorry, I forgot the "fact:" prefix.)
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09:39:40 <Sgeo_> Obviously, fizzie is Lumenos
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09:54:37 <fizzie> Also, dark matter is actually peanut butter!
09:54:49 <fizzie> (It makes approximately as much sense.)
09:57:49 <olsner> my god, it's full of peanut butter!
09:58:30 <fizzie> olsner: You have a weird sort of god.
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10:00:02 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, yes, but I find it more amusing to interpret it as a peanut-buttery god.
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10:38:19 <Sgeo_> "Next, Melissa would have to ask you, "Can I have a direct connection to the Internet?" At this point only the most naive user would fail to realize that this email message, no matter how strong the claim that it came from a friend, is up to no good purpose. You would say "No!""
10:38:38 <Sgeo_> http://wiki.erights.org/wiki/Walnut/Complete#Melissa
10:43:08 <Phantom_Hoover> So their security system is to drive you insane with things asking for permissions, causing you to instinctively click "yes" every time a dialogue pops up?
10:43:37 <Phantom_Hoover> As such: "Can I have your bank account details?" "YESJUSTSHUTUP"
10:48:18 * Sgeo_ ponders making his computer unbootintowindowsable during certain times
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11:24:00 <fizzie> A metal band used to attach a reed to the mouthpiece of a clarinet or saxophone?
11:38:32 <fizzie> †7. The state of being bound; suspension of the intellectual or physical powers (see quots.). Obs. 1727-41 CHAMBERS Cycl., Ligature, among mystic divines, signifies a total suspension of the superior faculties, or intellectual powers of the soul... This passive state of these contemplative people they call their ligature. Ligature, is also used for a state of impotency, in respect to venery, caused by some charm, or witchcraft.
11:38:59 <fizzie> OED is the most useful thing ever for willful misunderstandings.
11:40:47 <fizzie> Although that "dictionary of euphemisms" I got from a random bookstore visit is also useful. Except that half the entries map to a penis.
11:42:41 <fizzie> Also a review describes that book as "unputdownable", which is quite a word.
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12:58:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Is it the size of the GPRs? The length of the types operated on by the instructions? The size of the addresses?
12:59:09 <fizzie> Size of the GPRs, usually. It's a bit vague.
12:59:42 <fizzie> 6502, for example, is usually considered an 8-bit CPU, since the instructions operate on 8-bit data (regs and memory), even though addresses are 16 bits.
13:00:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, the 8086 had 20-bit addresses, but was a 16-bit processor.
13:01:16 <fizzie> That's also a bit vague. The sort of registers that are usually involved in arithmetic-related opcodes?
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13:01:59 <fizzie> I'm not sure what Z80 is; the general-purpose regs are 8-bit (A, B, C, D, E, H, L), but the instruction set also has some (but not as many as 8-bit) 16-bit arithmetic opcodes that treat the registers as pairs BC, DE, HL. And the memory-indexing registers IX and IY are 16-bit only (unless you count undocumented opcodes), as are addresses.
13:02:09 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, so does that include x86-32's 96-bit FP registers and 128-bit SSE registers?
13:02:35 <fizzie> I don't think those count as general-purposey enough.
13:02:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Although you can't really use either for normal arithmetic.
13:03:00 <fizzie> Wikipedia categorizes Z80 as "an 8-bit microprocessor", still.
13:03:16 <fizzie> A majority of the instruction set operates on 8-bit data, maybe that's what counts there.
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13:05:50 <fizzie> Another random Wikipedia bit: "A CPU can be classified on the basis of the data it can access in a single operation. An 8-bit processor can access 8 bits of data in a single operation, as opposed to a 16-bit processor, which can access 16 bits of data in a single operation."
13:06:49 <ais523> just when you thought the SCO situation couldn't get any more fun: they've just applied to the bankruptcy court for permission to hire a firm to help them with their tax returns, because they no longer have any employees who understand how to do it and they still haven't paid taxes for 2008 yet
13:07:06 <fizzie> That's a bit vague too, and you could start arguing the Z80 as a 16-bit CPU on that basis.
13:09:27 <Phantom_Hoover> The "arithmetic operations" definition is probably the best I've heard so far.
13:10:20 <fizzie> Another definition-that-is-not-a-definition: ask N people (where N is sufficiently large) what the "bitness" of a particular CPU is, then pick the majority opinion.
13:11:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, the SSE and FP registers on x86 cannot be used with integers the same size of the register.
13:12:21 <Phantom_Hoover> So you can only use 32- or 64-bit ints with a single instruction. I think.
13:12:45 <fizzie> On the other hand, the 80-bit FPU regs do contain 80 value bits. But maybe floating-point doesn't count.
13:13:00 <Sgeo> Would E style promises work out any better than the usual sort of promises?
13:13:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Anyway, that's what I was getting at. You can't add the 80-bit integer in ST0 to the 80-bit integer in ST1.
13:13:38 <fizzie> The "long double" type is sometimes 96 bits, for alignmenty reasons, but the actual format is 80 bits.
13:14:46 <Phantom_Hoover> And the SSE registers contain vectors of various types, so you can't add the whole register to another in a single instruction.
13:15:52 <fizzie> Right; though I think even x86-32's SSE supports 64-bit integers in the registers, so you could start to argue that x86-32 is a 64-bit CPU there.
13:16:51 <Phantom_Hoover> OTOH SSE is an optional extension in x86-32, but I think it's part of x86-64.
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13:18:24 <fizzie> The older optional extension, MMX (which uses the 80-bit FPU regs as 64-bit SIMD regs) only supports sizes up to (two elements of) 32 bits, I think.
13:27:03 <fizzie> What is your exact definition right now?
13:27:59 <Phantom_Hoover> "The size of the integers in the arithmetic operations."
13:29:32 <Phantom_Hoover> With something about the minimum necessary for the specification, to get around the x86-32 SSE thing.
13:31:38 <fizzie> There's also the 16-bit Z80 thing, but only if you want to put Z80 into the 8-bit camp. (I guess most people would put it there, though.)
13:34:40 <fizzie> Yes. And there are no 16-bit bitshifts or rotates, for example. But there's add, adc, sbc, inc and dec for the 16-bit pairs.
13:35:07 <fizzie> It doesn't have 8-bit multiplication either.
13:35:28 <fizzie> "Don't you know how much a multiplier costs? We're not made out of money!"
13:35:48 <ais523> wow, security update for w3m
13:36:03 <ais523> apparently you could fool its https authentication by putting literal NULs in the certificate
13:36:41 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, so it was ridiculously slow at anything approaching mathematics?
13:36:59 <fizzie> No slower than its competitors, which didn't do hardware multiplication either.
13:37:41 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: the issue is that a fast multiplier takes up a lot of chip space
13:38:05 <ais523> if you want a one-cycle 32-bit multiplier, say, you can do it but it'll take up as much space as a few kilobits of memory
13:38:28 <ais523> if you're happy to spend 32 cycles to multiply your 32 bits, it can be done much more efficiently
13:38:49 <ais523> but at that sort of speed, you may as well just do it in software
13:38:50 <ais523> 8 bits isn't /so/ bad, but it's still bad
13:39:31 <fizzie> The 8086 MUL instruction, for example, takes 70..118 cycles according to this here manual. (And IDIV takes 101..165.)
13:40:54 <ais523> especially if it's being done in microcode rather than hardware
13:41:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Multiplication is a matter of shifts and ands, isn't it?
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13:44:13 <fizzie> A hit-and-run question.
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13:44:57 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover_: shifts, ands, and addition
13:45:15 <ais523> the addition is the hard part
13:45:51 <ais523> because if you just string all the additions together in the obvious way, it takes ages for the carries to propagate
13:46:46 <fizzie> To quote: "Older multiplier architectures employed a shifter and accumulator to sum each partial product, often one partial product per cycle, trading off speed for die area. Modern multiplier architectures use the Baugh–Wooley algorithm, Wallace trees, or Dadda multipliers to add the partial products together in a single cycle. The performance of the Wallace tree implementation is sometimes improved by modified Booth encoding one of the two multiplicands, wh
13:46:46 <fizzie> ich reduces the number of partial products that must be summed."
13:46:58 <fizzie> (It's always a bad sign when things start to get named after people.)
13:49:22 <fizzie> Aaaanyway, back to the original issue, something I was going to add: Z80 also does 16-bit memory loads and stores to/from the register pairs, and the stack ops (push, pop) only work with 16-bit quantities.
13:50:19 <Phantom_Hoover_> In which case the register pairs are rather similar to the 8086 having AX split into AH and AL, yes?
13:50:46 <fizzie> Well, in a sense. But 8086 can do just about everything to AX, including bitwise stuff.
13:51:17 <Phantom_Hoover_> True, but the 8086 had a MUL instruction, so that hardly counts.
13:51:39 <Phantom_Hoover_> We're defining "arithmetic operations" as plus and minus, it would appear.
13:52:11 <fizzie> Right, well, in that sense Z80 would be a badly limited sort of 16-bit CPU.
13:53:15 <fizzie> It's not a very uniform place. The 8-bit accumulator A isn't part of any register pair, and the HL register actually isn't strictly speaking a pair, because you can't access H or L directly; the 8-bit register-accessing opcodes only do A, F, B, C, D, E. And sometimes you can use AF as a pair too. (F is the flag register.)
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13:54:27 <fizzie> Hmm, no, actually scratch that about HL; H and L were separately accessible just well.
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13:55:48 <fizzie> It was just the IX and IY registers that were indivisible. (And actually you could undocumentedly stick the IX/IY prefix bytes to many instructions that would normally access H and L, to access their bytes separately too. I seem to recall most assemblers called those register halves IXH/IXL/IYH/IYL.)
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13:57:46 <fizzie> There's a bit of a funny thing in that most things that take a 8-bit register operand use a three-bit register field in the opcode; seven of the possible values map to A, B, C, D, E, H and L, but the one that'd "naturally" be F instead does indirection and fetches the byte pointed by HL.
13:59:10 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, x86 does truly terrible things for ESP indirection.
14:01:07 <fizzie> There's also the RLD instruction, which rotates nybbles; the four low bits of A go to the low nybble of the byte pointed by HL; that byte itself shifts left by 4 bits; and the out-falling 4 bits go to low bits of A. The four highest bits are not touched. (There's also the opposite-direction RRD.)
14:01:25 <fizzie> I wouldn't be surprised if it was some sort of BCD-motivated thing.
14:01:48 <fizzie> (There's also the X86 DAA included, though I think with another name.)
14:01:54 <Phantom_Hoover> x86 has obsolete and underused BCD instructions. I feel sorry for them.
14:02:13 <fizzie> Decimal adjust accumulator! What a great name.
14:04:59 <fizzie> Incidentally, x86 DAA is invalid in 64-bit mode; its friends might also be.
14:05:37 <fizzie> Doesn't the S in scasb/lodsb stand for "string"?
14:06:33 <fizzie> And the conditional moves are nice, though it's not like some architectures where you can add condition codes to absolutely any instruction.
14:07:40 <fizzie> ARM in non-Thumb mode, IIRC.
14:07:57 <fizzie> With some exceptions that use the condition code field for encoding extra stuff.
14:09:33 <fizzie> And Thumb has a "if-then" instruction; "ITxxxx cc", where cc is any condition code, and xxxx is an arbitrary sequence of T/F (for true/false), and it executes the four next opcodes conditionally if the T/F matches the value of the condition. But you don't have to use this manually; you can just put condition codes into any instruction, and the assembler will add IT's as necessary.
14:12:23 <fizzie> Oh, and FirePath does conditional SIMD; if you do a "cmphib p0, r1, r2", it compares eight bytes of r1 against the eight bytes of r2, and sets each bit of p0 to the result of the comparison; then you can do "p0.movb r2, r1" which will move only those bytes for which the comparison was true.
14:15:04 <fizzie> I've done very little of ARM asm, but I do recall doing a conditional RET once.
14:21:06 <fizzie> Except that hmm, maybe it wasn't ARM? Because ARM's "call" is in fact "bl", branch-with-link, which jumps somewhere and puts the return address into the link register; so a ret is just "bx lr", a unconditional branch to the link register. I distinctly recall a "RETcc" opcode in something, but it's not x86.
14:21:59 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, if it stores the return address in a register, what happens when the callee wants to call something?
14:22:25 <fizzie> The usual procedure prologue pushes the link register into stack, I think.
14:24:18 <fizzie> Except if you're a leaf function, in which case you omit that bit.
14:26:17 <fizzie> Or if you're a function that only does a tail call, in which case you also don't need to store lr, and can do that tail call with just a non-linking branch.
14:33:28 <fizzie> Also, if you stick lr on stack at the top of the function, you can return by loading it directly to pc; lr and pc are just special names for two general-purpose registers.
14:33:30 <fizzie> So you can do a "stmdb sp!, {r4, r5, r6, lr}" to save the return address and r4..r6 (which are callee-saved), and then exit the function with a single "ldmia sp!, {r4, r5, r6, pc}".
14:34:58 <fizzie> (Or "push {r4, r5, r6, lr}" and "pop {r4, r5, r6, pc}", which are aliases for that, but I wanted to get the exclamation marks there, I think they're funny.)
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14:42:12 <fizzie> Did you miss my nifty ARM monologue?
14:43:34 <fizzie> Okay, that's good then.
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14:57:56 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover_: Here's the sort of frames gcc does: http://sprunge.us/YIbI (ignore the path to gcc, I'm in the progress of organizing files)
14:59:23 <fizzie> For "tail", it's just a single branch; for a leaf function, it's the code (add r0, r0, #42) and a "bx lr"; for a full function, it uses the stack, though a bit differently for some reason.
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15:01:37 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover_: I have that Nintendo DS, it's an ARM thing. (The "ds" in the path was referring to that.)
15:01:49 <freshmeat> What region of memory does the BF pointer point to initially?
15:02:57 <freshmeat> Alright, so this is what I do to transfer contents...
15:03:24 <fizzie> I guess BF isn't very well standardized; it's not always an unbounded tape, it might be a loopy tape too. (Zeroed it does tend to be.)
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15:04:38 <freshmeat> Guys, may I ask something? Don't be offended...
15:05:00 <fizzie> If the tape isn't unbounded, the pointer will usually point at the "beginning" of it, in the sense of < moving towards the start. Though if it wraps it's a bit arbitrary, because how could you tell where it points?
15:06:12 <freshmeat> So, we are at the source cell, and as it is decremented to zero, we move to the next cell for each decrement and increment its contents by one, then move back.
15:06:48 <fizzie> Yes, that sounds like an accurate description.
15:07:13 <freshmeat> Alright, so that's cutting. What about copying?
15:07:24 <fizzie> You need to use a spare cell for that.
15:07:42 <fizzie> [->+>+<<] adds the value of the starting cell to the next and the one after that.
15:08:04 <fizzie> Then you can move the cell at >> back to the original place with a [-<<+>>] if you want.
15:08:11 <freshmeat> Guys, do you know what I feel like doing?
15:09:43 <fizzie> >[-]>[-]<<[->+>+<<]>>[-<<+>>]<< is I think a reasonably general "p[1] = p[0]; p[2] = 0;", where p[0] is the starting cell, p[1] one step to right, and so on.
15:10:06 <fizzie> Except if you're running on a bignum brainfuck and have a negative number there somewhere.
15:10:39 <fizzie> 6502's so popular, you'd think there is one already. But who knows.
15:12:16 <fizzie> There's one interpreter, but maybe no compilers yet. Are you going to write it in BF?
15:14:43 <freshmeat> What would be an elegant way to swap the contents of two memory cells
15:15:18 <fizzie> The equivalent of "tmp = a; a = b; b = tmp;", most likely; that can use a destructive sort of = already.
15:16:08 <fizzie> [->>+<<]>[-<+>]>[-<<+>>] with maybe a zeroing there if you're not sure the spare cell is already zero.
15:17:06 <fizzie> On the topic of brainfuck implementations, let's mention awib again. It's a brainfuck/C/bash polyglot -- most of it brainfuck -- which compiles brainfuck to Linux/i386 ELF files, or C/Ruby/Go source.
15:17:15 <freshmeat> Any thoughts here on writing an assembler in BF?
15:17:49 <freshmeat> Or, more simply, a general binary search algorithm in BF
15:18:41 <fizzie> (Away for now, must relocate self to another place.)
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15:20:35 <Phantom_Hoover> freshmeat, it would be extraordinarily difficult, but certainly possible.
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15:47:54 <Gregor> fizzie: I don't even have ops :P
15:48:11 <Gregor> fizzie: So I couldn't ban you to run OpenFungot
15:48:15 <Gregor> fizzie: Thanks for the idea though.
15:49:09 <Gregor> Do yer own log-trawling :P
15:50:53 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: the latter. in the language that could consistently win both speed and size. :)
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16:14:26 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Yeee-es... it didn't seem relevant in the dream.
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17:00:00 <ais523> wow, the US Senate just passed "The ______Act of____."
17:00:07 <ais523> because they forgot to fill in the name, and nobody noticed
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17:05:35 <ais523> <Slashdot> As for what's in the bill, well that appears to be as mysterious as the name. It was officially announced as a bill to tax bonuses to execs who received TARP money. But then someone simply deleted the entire bill and replaced it with text about aviation security. And then it was deleted again, and replaced with something having to do with education.
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17:52:28 <cpressey> Duck typing: It looks like a duck, it walks like a duck, so it is actually a goose, we think -- at any rate, it is quite fowl.
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18:23:55 <fizzie> I remember that DEFCON game of theirs -- if this is the same thing. Not that I played it or anything, just looked at it.
18:24:46 <fizzie> Oh, and Uplink was also theirs?
18:25:07 <fizzie> And Darwinia, it seems.
18:26:17 <fizzie> I know of all three, and played a bit with Uplink, but that's about it.
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18:41:31 <Sgeo> I've played with the demo of Uplink before
18:41:35 <Sgeo> I love the music
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19:15:44 <cpressey> In programming in general. In mathematics -- I'll turn a blind eye.
19:16:06 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, "tuple" means completely different things in different languages.
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19:16:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, they can have more than one thing in them; that's more or less where it stops.
19:17:19 <cpressey> The things in them don't have names. Tuples with the same number of things in them are considered the same type.
19:18:02 <cpressey> Fine, same number *and type* of things in them. (Int, Int) = (Int, Int).
19:19:41 <cpressey> Yes well I'll just take your word for that.
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19:24:07 <deschutron> for the record, I like tuples, in maths at least
19:24:52 <Phantom_Hoover> I still don't get his point about tuples in programming, though.
19:25:19 <deschutron> the type checking seems wrong for what he's trying to do i guess
19:25:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Particularly as tuples in Haskell and tuples in Python are utterly, utterly different.
19:26:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, if he's having type checking problems in GHC I pity him.
19:29:31 <Phantom_Hoover> In any case, using records instead of tuples in Haskell is... really stupid.
19:33:11 <deschutron> my first guess is maybe he'll sleep on it
19:33:24 <deschutron> i don't know what timezone he's in though
19:33:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Seems improbable, since it's mid-afternoon for him at the latest
19:33:56 <deschutron> well, he might hack at it for eight hours and then sleep on it
19:34:08 <Phantom_Hoover> On the other hand, people here have very weird sleep schedules, so...
19:35:09 <deschutron> about the idea of appropriating a linux kernel for a custom OS, i found a lead today
19:35:32 <deschutron> I installed Archlinux on my computer, and put the boot directory on its own partition as recommended
19:36:12 <deschutron> and then made an empty partition containing nothing but the files the kernel requires and a custom init program
19:36:28 <deschutron> and booted the custom partition with the boot partition
19:37:03 <deschutron> I figure, all we need is the boot folder from an existing linux distribution
19:39:26 <deschutron> i noticed in the Grub entry for Archlinux, the drive to use as the root directory for Linux is passed as an argument to the kernel
19:42:34 <Phantom_Hoover> I assume your boot partition contains a kernel image and a ramdisk image.
19:47:27 <deschutron> I didn't put it together. It is part of Archlinux.
19:49:47 <deschutron> I just saw your Silly Emplosions idea on the Esolangs wiki.
19:50:23 <deschutron> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Silly_Emplosions
19:50:52 <fizzie> That looks like a zzo38 idea.
19:50:56 <fizzie> The best kind of idea!
19:52:01 <deschutron> Anyway, the idea of variables that expire after a time delay looks interesting
19:52:34 <Phantom_Hoover> I had a half-baked idea involving neural networks once, but that never went anywhere.
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19:54:09 <Phantom_Hoover> deschutron, something along the lines of program specifies a fitness metric, compiler trains a network to that metric.
19:54:40 <fizzie> That sounds more like a generic neural-network tool than a programming language.
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19:55:18 <deschutron> the choice of evolutionary algorithm used would make a big difference
19:55:22 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, I suppose. But I planned to shoehorn it into an esolang.
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19:56:21 <Phantom_Hoover> deschutron, yes. I started reading literature on the subject, but I got bored and real life got in the way.
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19:57:55 <oklopol> hello everyone my name is oklopol
19:58:02 <deschutron> that's sounds like the way in this community
19:58:30 <fizzie> hello oklopol my name is not oklopol
19:58:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Everything is being done for fun, so when it gets boring we tend to stop.
19:58:42 <fizzie> (This is a special occasion; I left out the punctuation.)
19:58:43 <oklopol> fizzie: hello fizzie what is your name then
19:59:00 <fizzie> oklopol: they call me fizzie *beep*
19:59:17 <deschutron> i think it tends to move ahead, but slowly
19:59:20 <fizzie> I don't know, for some reason I imagine those things out loud in the "robot voice".
19:59:27 <oklopol> fizzie: after your smiley face the other day no one is gonna notice a missing zero dimensional object
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19:59:45 <oklopol> what's the way in this community
19:59:58 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, starting on stuff, then getting bored and stopping.
20:00:22 <deschutron> people get really into something one day, work on it a bit, and then return to their lives
20:00:35 <deschutron> and the thing is left alone for months
20:00:46 <oklopol> so i wasn't here have you read the newest P!=NP proof yet
20:01:03 <oklopol> i hear this time it's for real!
20:01:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, yeah, it's a bit boring at the start but once it gets going it's unputdownable!
20:01:37 <oklopol> in 2012, the solution will be perfected, and the universe will reset
20:02:51 <oklopol> and god will be all like wow that was fast, took like a billion years for the sludgemonkeys in the last universe
20:03:31 <deschutron> yeah, unlike the sludgemonkeys, we did it in polynomial time
20:05:03 <fizzie> I wouldn't let that get in the way of a good joke.
20:06:04 <oklopol> yeah obviously god runs the test for all sizes, for a given species
20:06:16 <deschutron> we just have to count through all the decision problems in P and compare them against the ones in NP
20:06:51 <deschutron> the biggest problem is deciding which to compare first.
20:07:02 <Phantom_Hoover> And anyway, the end will be with the Reimann Hypothesis.
20:07:10 <deschutron> That's where the sludgemonkeys got it wrong.
20:07:47 <oklopol> ironically, the phantom hoovers are the current record holder.
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20:43:59 <oerjan> <ais523> wow, the US Senate just passed "The ______Act of____." <-- awesome
20:45:21 <oerjan> <cpressey> In programming in general. In mathematics -- I'll turn a blind eye.
20:45:46 <oerjan> <cpressey> Tuples suck.
20:46:33 <oerjan> there's actually a point in that recent P=NP proof where it does something with tuples, that may actually be a fatal flaw in the proof
20:47:15 <oerjan> it's not the only thing the experts are pouncing on, though
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20:49:53 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> !haskell return 3
20:50:08 <oklopol> what's this about tuples problems?
20:50:08 <oerjan> !haskell return 3 :: IO Integer
20:50:37 <oerjan> thought so, it's in the IO monad and ghci is set (it's an option i think) to print the result of IO actions
20:51:03 <oerjan> oklopol: which tuples problems?
20:51:11 <oklopol> "<oerjan> there's actually a point ..."
20:51:24 <oklopol> and why are blind eyes turned
20:51:47 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, cpressey was complaining about tuples in programming.
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20:52:58 <oerjan> well he also said something about blind eye in mathematics so i thought i'd just point out that tuples can be problematic there too :D
20:53:02 <oklopol> i checked the wp page for the highlights of the proof, but the only word i understood was FO
20:53:18 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, I still have no idea what he was going on about.
20:53:32 <oerjan> oklopol: in my very vague understanding, apparently the proof depends on the solutions having exponentially or so many clusters in the graph of possibilities, but when you pass to tuples you accidentally ruin that property
20:53:48 <oerjan> ais523: first order iirc
20:54:26 <oklopol> also "something that only quantifies over scalars" is multiple words
20:54:27 <oerjan> ais523: it's a very low complexity class, the languages definable by first order logic statements
20:55:19 <oerjan> however if you add things to it you can get more, and a least fix point (LFP) operation apparently allows you to define all languages in P
20:55:28 <oklopol> on pretty much any universes, it's equivalent to "threshold counting"
20:55:47 <oklopol> you have some fixed size "ball" (with the reachability metric given by your relations)
20:56:27 <oerjan> oklopol: um i though FO was equivalent to AC not TC, although i'm very vague on these things that i've only very recently heard about
20:56:28 <oklopol> and given a model, you calculate the number of different balls, each only up to the threshold, and based on that you decide whether the model is OK
20:56:46 <oklopol> i learned about this stuff like last week
20:57:04 <oerjan> circuits with unbounded fanin OR and AND, as well as NOT
20:57:16 <oklopol> i haven't seen the proofs yet, because the only place i know where they are is a book i only have in german
20:57:23 <pikhq> Wow. There's 1.1 billion US dollar coins, hardly any of them in circulation... All because Congress commissioned dollar coins, didn't stop the printing of dollar bills, and people won't use dollar coins.
20:57:33 <oerjan> hm maybe AC^0, or AC^1, the indices are about the depth of the circuit
20:57:35 <oklopol> i've been told you can read math in any language, but sofar i haven't had much luck
20:58:21 <pikhq> This makes me feel that I need to ask the bank for dollar coins on a regular basis.
20:58:44 <oklopol> i don't really know AC, although i have heard about that kind of circuits
20:58:48 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: lists and arrays usually have only one type of thing in them, and it makes some sense to refer to them only by number index
20:59:04 <oklopol> i don't know what that means exactly, though, like how does the circuit depend on input size
21:00:42 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: haskell is like that. python probably confuses everything by being dynamically typed so you can use tuples almost as immutable lists?
21:01:25 <oerjan> oklopol: polynomial size of the circuit in input size is usual. the depth is then log^n where n is the index you put on things
21:01:35 <oklopol> oerjan: no there's a crucial difference, the type checking functions give you a different string for tuples and lists.
21:02:48 <oerjan> oklopol: i guess your threshold counting is something different than TC (which is what you get if add unbounded fanin _threshold_ functions as your basic gates)
21:03:27 <oerjan> oklopol: that's not crucial to what cpressey was discussing, i think. both tuples and lists allow arbitrary typed _contents_ in python
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21:05:13 <oerjan> and then there is uniformity, which is when you put restrictions on how hard the circuits are to construct (say, can be constructed by a LOGSPACE TM)
21:05:19 <oklopol> yeah i don't know what thresholds imply for circuits
21:05:28 <oklopol> i didn't read about this in complexity theory context
21:05:56 <oerjan> it means you can tell whether >= k of the input bits are 1
21:06:06 <oklopol> i know the definition, not what it implies
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21:08:06 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> In any case, using records instead of tuples in Haskell is... really stupid.
21:08:46 <oerjan> not at all, it gives additional type safety, and gives you names to hint what's _supposed_ to be in them (well, ideally)
21:09:59 <oerjan> of course the downside is verbosity
21:15:06 <fizzie> oerjan: You can fight that by using only single-letter identifiers anywhere.
21:15:35 <fizzie> It'll be obvious what the q, z, t and p fields are from the name of the record (R).
21:15:37 <oerjan> thus ruining half my first point :D
21:16:00 <oerjan> (i guess that's your joke)
21:16:10 <fizzie> Yes, if you can call it that.
21:19:24 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, defining a record for every tuple used is NaZi-level type safety.
21:20:08 <oerjan> sure if you only use it once...
21:21:01 <Phantom_Hoover> That's why I said "instead", i.e. doing just what I described.
21:29:22 <oerjan> i guess you'll have to wait for cpressey to return for that :)
21:30:52 <oklopol> well see what if one of your functions wants to return one more thing than the others
21:31:14 <oklopol> but if you use lists then all is good
21:32:23 <oerjan> ah but if one of your functions wants to return one thing of a different type than the others, then it's the reverse
21:32:54 <oerjan> (and if both, you need another data type anyhow)
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21:35:08 <oklopol> yeah but see you can use additional cells of lists to move secret data around, you know like inheritance, the lower level functions only know about the first two cells, and you can use the third one for your evil purposes. how great is that?!?
21:35:17 <oklopol> with tuples you'd have to actually add another field
21:35:25 <oklopol> and then there's all that bureaucracy
21:35:46 <oklopol> you can't just add another field like that, but you can always silently return more data
21:36:55 <oerjan> oklopol: i think ocaml has records that allow such things, but the haskell community could never agree on which improved record system to use
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21:38:07 <oklopol> i was actually joking because what i was describing was a rather horrible thing to do
21:38:28 <oklopol> assuming you do it in an insane way, like i was thinking
21:38:45 <oklopol> there are many functions that use the basic data type
21:38:53 <oklopol> and they all have their secret data transmission schemes
21:39:11 <oklopol> everyone has their own protocol for using the secret fields
21:39:35 <oklopol> and people randomize a number between 0 and 65535 to see which field they should use, so there are no collisions
21:41:02 <oerjan> oklopol: well by "such things" i meant passing fields that the receiver does not need to know about unless they use it
21:42:44 <oerjan> i guess that's pretty central to ocaml allow object-oriented programming
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21:43:04 <oerjan> although my memory of ocaml's finer type features is very vague
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21:59:13 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: fnord, ( and i do a large system compiled as a static analysis of aliasing.
22:05:15 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
22:05:38 <fungot> Selected style: c64 (C64 programming material)
22:05:46 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: purpose: restore default system and basic. this interrupt can occur when using a pal system 02 frequency of oscillator i with a byte associated with them. it is the cassette byffer when being written or read.
22:11:22 <oerjan> the latest comments on the godel's letter blog indicate that the P != NP proof may have been withdrawn by the author :(
22:11:31 <ais523> due to being incorrect?
22:11:58 <oerjan> presumably, it's not clear but someone said his homepage no longer mentions it
22:12:15 <oerjan> (although some links still work)
22:16:30 <Warrigal> You know, it would be neat if, instead of having a negation sign, we had a ten's complement sign.
22:17:06 <Warrigal> So instead of writing -3, you'd write ‡7; instead of -256, you'd write ‡744; and so on.
22:19:19 <Warrigal> I'm pretty sure it's ten's complement.
22:19:20 * oerjan has this manual adding/subtraction device stored away, with a stylus to move the digits, that works something like that
22:19:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Ten's complement would probably be ~x+9, if two's complement is anything to go by.
22:20:34 <Warrigal> Nope. Ten's complement is the complement plus one.
22:22:16 <oerjan> similar to these http://www.calculi.nl/subpages.php?pageid=24138
22:22:23 <Warrigal> Well, the term "ones' complement" technically only applies to binary, but yeah. That plus one.
22:22:30 <oerjan> (i don't think the exact model is there)
22:22:57 <ais523> nine's complement plus one
22:26:07 <oerjan> actually it might be one of those german Addiators
22:29:27 <oerjan> here's a big picture of a different model http://www.science.uva.nl/museum/produx.html
22:31:19 <oerjan> i think of ten's complement because that's essentially what happened if you tried to subtract more than you had, you would be left with an unsettled borrow indicator and the rest of the numbers would be like that
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22:34:29 <oerjan> iirc each slide has each digit twice, once in black and once in red, and if you got a red one you were supposed to drag it all the way up or down and turn it into a carry/borrowing
22:35:24 <oerjan> (there was addition on one side of the device and subtraction on the other)
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22:40:04 <oerjan> actually carry/borrowing is always up. then you slide your stylus across the bend to the carry/borrowing at the left
22:41:13 <oerjan> it's quite intuitive really, although it only does addition/subtraction
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22:45:12 <Mathnerd314> so I was talking to dbot lately, and one of the things he said was "1,2 + 4 = 5,7".
22:45:35 <Mathnerd314> I can't conceive of an esolang where this is valid code/results
22:46:25 <Sgeo> Sounds vaguely J-like
22:46:33 <Sgeo> Except that it's readable
22:47:24 <Sgeo> Or the language is smart enough to know to use map in these circumstances?
22:50:15 <EgoBot> scanl :: (a -> b -> a) -> a -> [b] -> [a] -- Defined in GHC.List
22:51:04 <oklopol> "1,2 + 4 = 5,7" <<< i don't get it
22:51:26 <Mathnerd314> oklopol: it's a puzzle: design a language where this is true
22:51:34 <oklopol> j uses a map just like that
22:51:37 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: x >>= return . f = fmap f x (or liftM f x)
22:51:43 <oklopol> except different syntax, and 2+4 is 6 in j
22:52:20 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: therefore liftM
22:54:02 <oklopol> +\ or something similar will actually sum the prefiCes of a list in j, but i don't know if a l +\ 4 will sum 4 to those prefices
22:54:18 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, hang on, fmap can work without bind, obviously.
22:54:41 * Sgeo can't believe he didn't realize the 2+4 thing >.>
22:54:45 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: naturally, that's why Functor is a different typeclass than Monad
22:55:00 <oklopol> Sgeo: i can't believe i didn't realize it sums prefixes
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22:56:10 <EgoBot> foldl :: (a -> b -> a) -> a -> [b] -> a
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22:56:45 <EgoBot> scanl :: (a -> b -> a) -> a -> [b] -> [a]
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22:57:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Mathnerd314, on the other hand, that has a superfluous item at the end.
22:58:21 <EgoBot> drop :: Int -> [a] -> [a]
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22:59:13 <Mathnerd314> Phantom_Hoover: ^ always mix up those two...
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23:00:50 <Phantom_Hoover> !haskell drop =<< subtract 1 . length $ scanl (+) 4 [1,2]
23:01:22 <Phantom_Hoover> !haskell (drop =<< subtract 1 . length) $ scanl (+) 4 [1,2]
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23:04:31 <Phantom_Hoover> !haskell import Control.Monad; drop =<< subtract 1 . length $ scanl (+) 4 [1,2]
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23:05:07 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: cannot use import with ghci modus, you need a main
23:05:55 <oerjan> although that import was redundant away
23:06:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, it's been the *first* one we wanted to drop all alone
23:06:55 <ais523> !haskell tail $ scanl (+) 4 [1,2]
23:06:58 <EgoBot> (=<<) :: (Monad m) => (a -> m b) -> m a -> m b
23:08:23 <oerjan> also init works on infinite lists too, calculating length ruins that (as well as general laziness)
23:09:24 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: a secondary address of character memory occupies the first number, and can be extended by nesting them ( having one function call. if one is found in the
23:09:56 <oerjan> well since there's no last element, it just returns the list itself, conceptually
23:10:29 <oerjan> (although it probably cannot share in practice)
23:11:20 <oerjan> !haskell take 3 . init $ 1:2:3:4:undefined
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23:11:55 <oerjan> laziness almost _demands_ that it works on infinite lists too
23:12:51 <oerjan> basically init (x:y:rest) = x : init (y:rest)
23:16:19 <cpressey> !haskell let r x = init (r x) in r [1..]
23:16:23 <EgoBot> *** Exception: stack overflow
23:16:49 <EgoBot> *** Exception: Prelude.init: empty list
23:17:40 <oerjan> r x = init (r x) is just r x = let y = init y in y except without the actual sharing
23:18:05 <oerjan> in particular it never gets around to looking at x at all
23:18:16 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, incidentally, what was your thing about monads?
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23:20:13 <cpressey> Because I can think of so few cases where something that identifies its contents with names wouldn't be better.
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23:24:57 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Is that supposed to be a counterexample?
23:25:16 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, using a custom type for zip seems... excessive.
23:25:33 <cpressey> zipmap (\x y -> ...) [1, 2, 3] [4, 5, 6]
23:26:29 <cpressey> although I can't forgive them the break in name orthogonality for that
23:30:17 <EgoBot> data (,) a b = (,) a b -- Defined in Data.Tuple
23:32:14 <oerjan> (as in, not actually legal data syntax)
23:32:47 <EgoBot> data [] a = [] | a : [a] -- Defined in GHC.Base
23:38:04 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, well, [1,2,3] is just syntactic sugar for 1:2:3:[]
23:40:40 <oklopol> in python everything is just a big heap of shit you can do whatever you want to
23:40:41 <cpressey> Sure, you *could*, if you felt like writing a proof-checker that could operate on Python programs.
23:40:58 <oklopol> just like c except completely different
23:41:21 <oklopol> and dependent types can do it
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23:42:52 <Gregor-P> Anybody got a vaguely interesting program in dc?
23:43:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor-P, someone had a program that printed pi in hex.
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23:44:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Printing pi in hex is much easier than in decimal, though.
23:45:18 <Gregor-P> I suppose this program doesn't terminate...
23:47:22 <cpressey> Can someone please clean the molten lead off the gymnasium floor? kthx
23:49:21 <Sgeo> Ted Stevens died?
23:52:08 <cpressey> The socket Stevens is a Richard, it seems.
23:52:28 <Sgeo> The series of tubes guy
23:59:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, I suppose you don't get the editor's esteemable organ in the US.
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00:01:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, the Private Eye is a satirical magazine in the UK.
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00:10:06 <Sgeo> As long as he doesn't write poems about me anytime soon, I'm omk
00:10:53 <zzo38> There are GPL for computer software codes, and GFDL for books, but what happens if your codes can compile a program and also books?
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00:12:08 <Gregor-W> Running a dc program to calculate primes in UNIX dc compiled for MIPS running in a JavaScript MIPS simulator JITting to JavaScript JITting to machine code is quite possibly the least efficient way that primes have ever been calculated.
00:12:30 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, Wikipedia, iirc
00:12:47 <Sgeo> How do you go about relicensing WIkipedia/
00:12:53 <Sgeo> You can't track everyone down
00:13:07 <Phantom_Hoover> They actually made the FSF change the GFDL to allow them to switch to CC-BY-SA.
00:13:44 <zzo38> Yes, I saw the GFDL it contains something specifically meant for Wikipedia to relicense things
00:13:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, WP makes it clear that as soon as you hit "save", any content you contribute is under whatever licensing terms they have.
00:14:05 <zzo38> Or, at least that is what it looks like to me, once I read it, I thought that is the only use for that part of the license
00:14:13 <Sgeo> zzo38, what part?
00:14:38 <Phantom_Hoover> It was under the GFDL 1.something or later, then the FSF added a clause to it that allowed wikis to switch to CC-BY-SA before a certain date.
00:15:54 <zzo38> I thikn only some versions of the GFDL include that clause
00:16:34 <Gregor-W> So anyway, still looking for an interesting terminating dc program.
00:17:36 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, I think he's lazy and wants someone else to do it for hi..I may have misunderstood
00:17:57 <Phantom_Hoover> I assumed he had an implementation and wanted something interesting to do.
00:18:24 <Sgeo> By "dc program", presumably he doesn't mean dc, which is what I thought, but things to put into dc
00:18:25 <Gregor-W> Phantom_Hoover: It's just UNIX dc (for MIPS for JSMIPS for JavaScript)
00:18:37 <Gregor-W> Yes, a program written in the "language" dc.
00:19:07 * Sgeo wonders what a dc language without the ability to not halt would look like
00:19:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor-W, http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-dc-704.html
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00:23:32 <Sgeo> The GFDL attempts to prevent the documentation being written in something that requires proprietary software to read. Any other documentation licenses do similar, more successfully?
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00:29:34 <Gregor-W> We should all strive to be more fascist than the FSF.
00:31:01 <Gregor-W> Phantom_Hoover: ATM you can't :P
00:31:10 <Gregor-W> Ctrl+D is slurped by the browser.
00:32:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, this dc doesn't bother with that buffered terminal crap.
00:35:56 <Phantom_Hoover> By which I mean it doesn't work, but it makes a nice effort.
00:36:17 <Gregor-W> I suspect it depends on GNU dcisms.
00:36:24 <Gregor-W> Since every other program I've found works perfectly.
00:36:29 <Gregor-W> And JSMIPS is incapable of being wrong.
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00:40:25 <Gregor-W> Phantom_Hoover: Probably, haven't tried. Can't from work.
00:42:51 <Gregor-W> Within the limits of my ability, can. Within the restrictions of the rules of this company, cannot.
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00:44:00 <Gregor-W> Not explicitly, but indirectly.
00:44:34 * Sgeo has taken a Tylenol
00:44:45 <Gregor-W> Sgeo: Congratulations on your accomplishment.
00:44:54 <Sgeo> I always say that on here, so that if I do it excessively by forgetfullness somehow, someone can warn me >.>
00:45:18 <Gregor-W> Sgeo: Dude, you've already said that like ten times in the last hour.
00:46:03 <Phantom_Hoover> You fell from glory due to a disastrous accident with an invisible shark tank, and are now bitter and vengeful.
00:46:10 <oerjan> Sgeo: very useful bunch, these guys
00:46:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Now you must seek justice upon the one who wronged you: Donald Knuth!
00:47:46 <Phantom_Hoover> For it is he who designed to topple your pedestal, to assist the Conspiracy!
00:52:44 <Phantom_Hoover> "C) Have you ever been or are you now involved in espionage or sabotage; or in terrorist activities; or genocide; or between 1933 and 1945 were you involved, in any way, in persecutions associated with Nazi Germany or its allies? * "
00:53:56 <Gregor-W> Last I checked, 1938 is between 1933 and 1945.
00:54:11 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: If you were a Nazi but not involved in persecutions involving Germany, you're fine.
00:54:34 <pikhq> So, the Pope is allowed in.
00:55:26 * Phantom_Hoover remembers a suggestion that House of Fun be pushed to the No. 1 spot in the UK for the Pope's visit.
00:56:53 <Phantom_Hoover> I think it's trying to replicate the "Killing in the Name of" thing.
00:57:04 <Sgeo> Thought it was a place of some sort. Stupid failure to understand context!
00:57:19 <Sgeo> Killing in the Name of>?
00:58:04 <Phantom_Hoover> (It'd been whatever crap the X Factor did for years before)
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01:13:27 <Gregor-W> For the first time in my internship here, the term "time flies when you're having fun" has applied.
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01:23:39 <zzo38> If you write a web program with GNU GPL and you sell a book of it, what is the license issues involved?
01:28:29 <Gregor-W> None? The GPL is the GPL regardless of the media format ... if you sell a book of a compiled binary of it, you have to include the source.
01:30:16 <pikhq> Aside from the GPL being poorly suited to not-code, no issues.
01:34:58 <zzo38> I understand the GPL is poorly suited to not-code, except, but it is a computer program code, but you print it out to make a book (including the table of contents, and index, and so on).
01:36:39 <Gregor-W> Is the index MERELY AGGREGATED with the source code, or LINKED with it? X-P
01:37:13 <zzo38> Gregor-W: The index is created from the source-code. The entire book is created from the source-code.
01:38:32 <zzo38> (Except that the index is generated automatically, the source-code does not include the index, instead it will find everything needed indexed and then put it in order in the index, with the section numbers)
01:38:49 <zzo38> (Section numbers are not included in the source code either, they are also automatically generated)
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01:49:50 <pikhq> zzo38: Arguably, the book is itself the compiled binary, and you need to also distribute the source.
01:50:12 <pikhq> Where "distribute" can just mean "You may download this at http://example.com/foo".
01:50:34 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, it is, itself what I think. The actual executable program is also the other compiled binary.
01:50:57 <zzo38> pikhq: I don't think that "distribute" is good enough......
01:51:23 <pikhq> "Believed to be" under GPL2, explicitly so under GPL3
01:53:38 <zzo38> That isn't good enough unless the URL specifies exactly to the program (so that accessing it using wget or netcat or curl will download the source file directly), but is better if, when you sell a DVD with this book that includes the source-codes, and a hardware device that uses this program
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01:56:51 <Sgeo> What was GPL1 like?
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02:24:01 <Sgeo> I took the Tylenol over an hour ago, why isn't it helping?
02:26:57 <Gregor> Because over-the-counter pain medicine is basically a joke that people continue to use because the placebo effect is more powerful when you actually believe it'll work.
02:34:00 <Sgeo> I once believed that a Tylenol I took would take effect in half-an-hour. My pain was relieved in an hour
02:34:15 <Sgeo> Can placebo effect explain that? (I'm not being sarcastic, I'm really curious)
02:36:44 <Sgeo> Will making the screen be red lessen the badness that using the computer would have on my headache?
02:45:03 <pikhq> Gregor: Actually, OTC pain medications are quite effective. Tylenol is not one of them for most afflictions.
02:46:34 * Sgeo wonders if the fact hat he only took half a dose might have anything to do with anything
02:46:54 <Sgeo> I'm rather on the small and thin side, so I try to be cautious...
02:47:40 <pikhq> Sgeo: Don't take Tylenol for headaches. It doesn't work, and it might kill your liver.
02:47:56 <pikhq> Try naproxen sodium, or aspirin, or ibuprofen.
02:48:05 <pikhq> </mild migraine sufferer?
02:48:05 <Sgeo> Never heard of naproxen sodium
02:49:00 <pikhq> Aleve = naproxen sodium
02:49:01 <Sgeo> Also, mightn't Aspirin kill my stomach? I don't drink, but I don't eat properly, so stomach issues might be more of a concern?
02:50:10 <pikhq> Aspirin can cause ulcers, yes, but it's not generally a concern for short-term OTC use.
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02:50:43 <pikhq> (if you have stomach issues or diabetes, aspirin is a solid no, though)
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02:51:58 <Sgeo> I have "not eating enough and the proper things" issues
02:52:50 <pikhq> That can cause headaches in and of itself.
02:53:00 <pikhq> You may want to fix that instead of resorting to medication.
02:54:49 <Sgeo> He suggested that I take another Tylenol
02:55:10 <pikhq> How much have you taken?
02:55:21 <pikhq> (in mg, preferably)
02:56:21 <pikhq> Okay, you may be safe going up to 1,000mg.
02:57:02 <pikhq> Tylenol is scary stuff, and even normal doses have a chance of causing liver failure.
02:57:33 <coppro> #1: solution to headaches in my experience: drink lots of water and lie down
02:57:42 <pikhq> coppro: Not a solution for migraines.
02:58:06 <Sgeo> I don't _think_ I have migrains
02:58:14 <pikhq> Sgeo: You'd know if you did.
02:58:36 <coppro> pikhq: I don't suffer from migraines, and apparently neither does Sgeo.
02:58:48 <pikhq> Among other things, you would not be fond of the lightbulb on which my words are being displayed.
02:58:49 <Sgeo> I've had severe, severe headaches on occasion
03:00:34 <Sgeo> Maybe I should turn away from the computer...
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03:25:10 <Sgeo> I hate walking into spider webs
03:25:14 <Sgeo> Especially large ones
03:25:32 <Sgeo> Also, my headache seems to be a bit better (without taking the extra Tylenol!)
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05:08:12 * oerjan has no f idea what today's xkcd is about
05:09:56 <pikhq> oerjan: A maid, a pizza delivery guy with a hot "sausage", and a "plumber" are stereotypical stock characters in American porn.
05:17:17 * oerjan suddenly wonders if there's cursing in american porn XD
05:17:32 <Gregor> Of course they left out "construction worker", "prison inmate" and "schoolgirl/cheerleader/etc"
05:17:45 <pikhq> American porn is not aired on TV at all, and instead on DVD.
05:17:54 <pikhq> American porn also does not give a fuck about moral guardians.
05:18:29 <Gregor> Although the Web is a porn melting pot.
05:18:45 <oerjan> i just thought it would be hilarious if there wasn't
05:19:11 <Gregor> Much use of "the 'F' word" :P
05:19:31 <Gregor> And playing board games.
05:19:39 <oerjan> well yeah but is it really cursing if you use the words _literally_? :D
05:30:07 <myndzi> o hey, this might be a good place to ask this
05:30:48 <myndzi> under scrutiny is the behavior of a bot being made to play tetris
05:31:04 <myndzi> there is a database of field shapes on which the pagerank algorithm is run
05:31:49 <myndzi> if we look 3 pieces ahead (we know what pieces they are), and get results like this (simplified): http://24.19.39.178/decision.png
05:31:57 <myndzi> the question is, is it better to follow the path for B or for C?
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05:32:19 <myndzi> path B has a better field within it, but path C has a better field after 3 placements
05:32:45 <myndzi> of course, the values inherently describe how good a field is in terms of what sequences of pieces it can handle
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11:54:04 * Phantom_Hoover is getting pretty fed up with Ubuntu holding his hand when downloading executables.
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13:21:16 <ais523> the varying numbers of underscores imply to me that it's a bad connection
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13:24:45 <Sgeo__> I ... wait, why'd I disconnect at 8:04?
13:25:02 <Sgeo__> The earlier disconnect was as my computer hibernated in an effort to prevent me from staying on it
13:25:44 <Sgeo__> I was unable to really use the computer until 7:30
13:26:56 <Sgeo__> At any rate, I didn't get any sleep last night. My dad wants me to stay up all day so I'll be able to go to sleep tonight
13:27:24 <Sgeo__> Yes, but you shouldn't have been able to derive that without me telling you. I'm confused now
13:39:06 <fizzie> Hung up; I don't know what's up with that state it sometimes goes; it keeps sleeping in the network-read. You'd think TCP timeouts would kill it eventually, but they do not seem to.
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13:39:32 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: i don't know of that one game... jak daxter ( or maybe i'm mistaken, but the
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14:56:59 <cpressey> ais523: You know, it's very easy to design a language whose programs form a monoid (because you don't need all that invertibility stuff)... then you could look at it as representing the category of monoids? Except, there is the slight snag that these aren't conventional algebras; they replace equality with computational equivalence (which is uncomputable!) in the axioms.
15:01:02 <cpressey> I think that's algebra's fault for assuming that = is such a trivial relation. ;)
15:01:38 <oerjan> algebraists generally just take the quotient by your equivalence relation and call it a day
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15:06:26 <oerjan> also equality with monoids is already undecidable when you have conventional equations. it's called the word problem.
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15:07:44 <cpressey> That all seems rather cavalier somehow, but actually I think it means I can feel a whole lot better -- Burro doesn't bend the rules nearly as much as I thought it might.
15:11:37 <ais523> cpressey: if instead of "computational equivalence", you say "provable computational equivalence, according to inference rules X, Y, Z, etc.", it works I think
15:11:43 <ais523> e.g. for Burro, you have the cancelling-out rules
15:12:41 <ais523> (instead of interpreting it as a programing language that's a group, interpret it as a group that happens to be executable in a TC way)
15:14:09 <cpressey> Well... if you're suggesting to restrict the set to instances that we can prove are equivalent to other instances... I'm pretty sure that's not TC anymore (although it's a different way to put the question than I'm used to)
15:14:23 <cpressey> s/instances/programs if you like
15:15:16 <ais523> I'm suggesting weaking the equality relation
15:15:18 <cpressey> Or, not a group, because it's not closed: A x B = C where A and B are provably equiavlent to somerhing, but C isn't
15:16:01 <ais523> so that you can have two computationally equivalent programs that are not equal, because it can't be proved using a certain specific set of rules
15:16:17 <ais523> they're both part of the group, just /different/ group elements
15:17:15 <cpressey> How on earth would you show that the "unprovable elements" obey any of the laws, though?
15:17:29 <ais523> no individual element is unprovable
15:17:34 <ais523> it's just the relationship between two of them
15:17:48 <ais523> and the laws are what you use to establish the equality relationship, so it's true by definition
15:18:03 <ais523> as in, two programs are equal if you can prove them equal using the group laws
15:18:11 <ais523> (which also implies they're computationally equivalent)
15:18:26 <ais523> two programs might happen to be computationally equivalent for a different reason, in which case they aren't equal
15:25:01 <cpressey> That might be a good way to re-seat the idea. I'm just trying to figure out if you lose anything (of significance). Currently, if 2 programs are equivalent for any reason, then they go into the same equivalence class and are treated as "the same thing" by the axioms. With the weaker definition, they would have to be "equivalent by the group axioms" in order to do that. OK, I think that's OK... Burro for example works
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15:28:04 * Phantom_Hoover wonders if learning Fortran would be good for a laugh.
15:33:03 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Not just a laugh, if you wanted to break into the big bad world of high-performance numerical computing.
15:35:42 <cpressey> Or you could learn: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortress_%28programming_language%29
15:37:53 <cpressey> COBOL would be a heartier laugh.
15:38:34 <cpressey> Or are we to say "Cobol" now? Everyone says Lisp and Forth and Basic. Have shouted language names gone out of style?
15:39:31 <cpressey> Oh, the kids these days, always with the ASCII.
15:40:17 <oklopol> NOTHING WRONG WITH UPPERCASE
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15:41:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Your view of aesthetics in typography are of a similar value of a pigeon's.
15:41:48 <oklopol> pigeons are very smart. all the known ways to show a language is not regular are based on pigeons.
15:43:05 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, maybe so, but they don't know the first thing about typography.
15:43:56 <ais523> oklopol: is that statement vacuously true?
15:44:17 <oklopol> "<Phantom_Hoover> s/view/views/" <<< clearly you know a lot about typography
15:44:54 <ais523> `addquote <oklopol> pigeons are very smart. all the known ways to show a language is not regular are based on pigeons.
15:45:06 <ais523> as in, there is a known way to show a language is not regular, and it's pigeon-based?
15:45:08 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, that is a typo. They are common, due to the fact that humans are not designed to type.
15:45:08 <HackEgo> 211|<oklopol> pigeons are very smart. all the known ways to show a language is not regular are based on pigeons.
15:45:27 <oklopol> ais523: well, not very literally :D
15:46:36 <oklopol> well how do you show a lang is not regular?
15:46:44 <oklopol> sorry about the socratic method
15:47:51 <oklopol> well okay the point is the characterization (and often the definition) of regular languages as those recognized by a one-way fsa
15:48:15 <oklopol> you can develop a pumping lemma (often called "the" pumping lemma) for them, because of ...
15:49:58 <oklopol> more precisely, we think of the states as pigeons
15:50:20 <oklopol> and i hope you get it already?
15:51:41 <oklopol> pigeonhole principle, the letters of the string are the holes
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16:40:18 <cpressey> ais523: OK, I think I see that any "group over computational equivalence" has a corresponding "group over provable computational equivalence" which is technically weaker, but more tractable, while "saying almost the same thing". (I'm sure you could relate them more formally.) Now, I wonder about the converse.
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17:59:29 * Flonk just became aware of the awesomeness of brainfuck
18:01:09 <augur> have you seen iota?
18:01:47 <augur> a combinator language with only one combinator and one non-logical symbol
18:03:44 <Flonk> and i thought brainfuck was masochistic.
18:04:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Flonk, it's of the same computational class as Brainfuck, too.
18:06:32 <augur> it depends on what you mean by computational class
18:06:36 <augur> in terms of power, any TC language is
18:06:40 <ais523> Unlambda/Lazy K > Iota
18:06:48 <augur> if you mean its a tarpit, only sort of
18:06:54 <augur> tarpits tend to be machine languages
18:07:00 <augur> whereas iota is a combinator language
18:07:14 <augur> which has its roots in the lambda calculus, whereas machine languages have their roots in turing machines
18:14:43 <cpressey> "Computational class" generally means "what kinds of things can it compute" in eso-land, rather than "what it has roots in"
18:15:16 <augur> well then its kind of useless to say that its in the same computational class as brainfuck
18:15:34 <augur> because almost all esolangs are TC
18:15:43 <augur> its like saying its in the same computational class as piet
18:16:30 <augur> you'd be surprised if one werent
18:17:15 <cpressey> There are quite a few that aren't. There are quite a few that *intentionally* aren't.
18:17:53 <augur> and its only not TC for silly reasons
18:18:01 <augur> well, its fucking weird, ill give you that
18:18:08 <augur> but its not an esolang
18:18:57 <augur> silly, in that it gives you directly manipulable access to memory addresses, and therefore the size of pointers has to be visible
18:19:10 <augur> and thats what leads to the non-TCness
18:19:40 <augur> the size of pointers becomes a part of the language itself, not something thats invisible and happening only between the compiler and the machine code
18:20:12 <augur> and its prooooobably true that you never need to actually know how big this or that pointer is
18:20:27 <cpressey> Unless you want to, I dunno, store it.
18:20:28 <augur> you just need to be able to do math on pointer sizes
18:20:52 <augur> you just need to allocated size(the_pointer) space!
18:21:35 <augur> no, you just need to be able to allocate enough space to store one
18:21:41 <augur> however much space that happens to be
18:21:45 <cpressey> Or, you know, prove that your real-time system can react to every event in less than 1 msec.
18:22:03 <cpressey> How long will it take to follow this pointer? Well that's the thing see
18:22:08 <Phantom_Hoover> augur, oh, and what if you want, say, a dynamically-allocated 2D array?
18:22:16 <augur> cpressey: i think if you want to do that you should be coding in a language closer to the metal or with good verification :P
18:22:26 <cpressey> Closer to the metal than C... uh-huh.
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18:23:50 <cpressey> So, because C isn't sufficiently "close to the metal", it should be even "further away from the metal", to the point where it supports pointers of unbounded length?
18:24:10 <augur> cpressey: no, not at all
18:24:26 <augur> just that it should make pointer size transparent
18:24:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Actually, once size_t is unbounded you can make a MRM, I think.
18:24:59 <cpressey> augur: It would need pointers of unbounded size (unbounded at runtime, mind you) in order to be TC, you realize.
18:25:06 <augur> im not actually sure if thats possible, im probably wrong, but i suspect that there are ways to write a language that is about that low level, but which can gloss over the details of any given machine
18:25:36 <Phantom_Hoover> It's just high-level enough that it can run on most architectures.
18:25:46 <augur> cpressey: well yes
18:25:53 <augur> ofcourse, i think saying C isnt TC is kind of a trick
18:26:11 <augur> because its as TC as any programming language on a given machine is
18:26:14 <augur> which is to say, it isnt
18:26:20 <augur> but only because its on a finite machine
18:26:40 <augur> if you could design a computer with infinite memory then you could hav a TC C
18:27:14 <augur> your integers would just have to be potentially an infinite number of bits long
18:27:31 <augur> impossible due to physics
18:27:38 <cpressey> sizeof(x) would need to be able to evaluate to the integer "infinity", which C doesn't define.
18:27:40 <coppro> no, impossible due to the standard
18:27:58 <augur> sizeof(x) would indeed evaluate to infinity
18:28:03 <augur> but that ceases to be relevant
18:28:09 <cpressey> But there *is no infinity* defined in C
18:28:13 <Phantom_Hoover> More generally, sizeof must return a value of type size_t, which is itself defined to be finite.
18:28:14 <coppro> the C standard requires a finite size of integers and a finite size of pointers, meaning that the total program space is always finite
18:28:27 <augur> cpressey: that may be so, but it doesnt matter
18:28:55 <cpressey> It does, because the language you're talking about is not C.
18:28:55 <augur> the fact that C has no defined infinity is precisely why it's a SILLY way to restrict C's computational power
18:29:01 <augur> its a technicality of non-TCness
18:29:07 <augur> not any sort of genuine conceptual limitation
18:29:47 <coppro> no, it's quite important
18:30:10 <coppro> now, it's silly to restrict TCness because of the impracticality of an infinite program space
18:30:11 <augur> for any finite machine you can compile a C program to it
18:30:19 <coppro> but you cannot consider C to be TC
18:30:25 <augur> i didnt say it was!
18:30:31 <augur> i said it was non-TC but only for silly reasons
18:30:56 <cpressey> You said C on an infinite machine would be TC. Sadly, no. C-with-infinity might be.
18:31:09 <augur> C-with-infinity then
18:31:23 <augur> thats not a substantial change to the language to make it Not C
18:32:28 <Phantom_Hoover> For one thing, malloc would work completely differently.
18:33:09 <augur> yes, but on a ram machine with each memory cell of infinite size
18:33:22 <augur> instead of just one bit
18:33:25 <cpressey> It's pretty substantial because of C's memory model. In languages like Lisp you can get relative (and thus unbounded) addressing with things like car and cons. In C you have to use pointers, and pointers are castable to integers, so you have to deal with the possibility of infinite integers, etc.
18:33:54 <augur> like i said, if you made pointers opaque
18:33:54 <cpressey> It's not impossible to do, but it doesn't strike me as simple.
18:33:58 <augur> ie not castable to integers
18:34:06 <augur> i mean, im not saying THAT wouldnt make it not C
18:34:43 <augur> but i did also say that i really doubt that anyone truly NEEDS to see the pointers as integers in any substantial sense
18:35:02 <augur> pointer arithmetic is all for memory shuffling and i think you could probably just get away with a point type that has opaque mathematics
18:37:11 <augur> its just a suspicion tho, that you-the-programmer dont actually ever need to use pointers as ints outside of navigating memory
18:37:46 <augur> if thats the case, then you could probably gloss over that somehow like pascal, without substantially changing the nature of how c-programs are written
18:38:13 <cpressey> And make it much harder to write a garbage collector or an OS kernel in C. Yes.
18:38:24 <augur> and so i would consider that to be a silly sort of non-TC-ness, in the same way that any finite-tape turing machine is not-TC
18:38:33 <augur> oh well sure, but why would you garbage collect on an infinite memory machine? :P
18:38:53 <cpressey> You wouldn't. But my machine doesn't *have* infinite memory.
18:38:55 <augur> you could never garbage collect and still have enough memory for any terminating program you want!
18:39:02 <augur> well im not saying it does
18:42:24 <augur> i just dont think its very insightful to say that C is not turing complete, because it's /effectively/ turing complete
18:42:48 <cpressey> No, it's not. I would call that a misunderstanding of what "Turing complete" means.
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18:43:26 <augur> and i would say that denying it is a misunderstanding of it. :D
18:43:41 <augur> to say that a finite tape turing machine is not turing complete is entirely true
18:43:46 <augur> but also entirely missing the point
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18:44:25 <augur> the differences between the automata's internal structure are far more important to computational power than the tape size
18:45:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Hang on, does the C standard allow for mmapping to external devices?
18:45:30 <cpressey> But actually, they aren't. A turing machine with a finite tape -> finite automaton. A pushdown automaton with finite stack -> finite automaton. Etc.
18:46:04 <cpressey> The internal structure is a technicality, computational-power-wise, if the storage size is fixed.
18:46:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Because then we can define a fixed address o which can be used to interface to a TM.
18:46:53 <augur> and since ToC studies the nature of computation, not the nature of harddrive space, the more salient and important aspect of study is and has always been the kinds of automata behavior
18:46:58 <augur> well, has mostly been
18:47:12 <augur> the incidental fun of what happens when you run out of memory is always a perenial issue
18:47:16 <cpressey> Vice versa? The storage size is a technicality if the internal structure is fixed? I would hardly agree with that.
18:48:03 <cpressey> augur: Can you tell me why you think Turing said his machine should have infinite tape?
18:48:10 <augur> no what i mean is that the differences between the classes of automata, by their internal state-machine properties, are far more salient than the memory limitations they run up against
18:48:32 <augur> you can give a TM more memory, and it can compute more and more complex classes of functions, up to TCness
18:49:58 <augur> a PDA with an infinite stack is still not TC
18:50:03 <augur> itll only get you the CF languages
18:50:30 <augur> infinite memory does not a TM make
18:50:32 <cpressey> But can you tell me why you think Turing designed his machine with an infinite tape?
18:50:38 * Phantom_Hoover imagines a little palmtop with an infinite stack poking out of it into the distance.
18:50:53 <augur> because you need infinite memory for TRUE TCness
18:51:04 <augur> but you also need infinite memory for true CFness
18:51:08 <cpressey> Ah! So "TC" is not the same as "TRUE TC"
18:51:22 <augur> and i never used it otherwise
18:51:28 <augur> "effectively TC" does not mean "actually TC"
18:52:16 <augur> a computer that can simulate EVERY turing machine, minus the ones with trivial infinite loops, is also not ACTUALLY TC
18:52:19 <augur> but its effectively TC
18:53:02 <augur> just because the computer will not simulate while (true) {} doesnt mean its not effectively TC
18:53:14 <augur> it just means it wont do computations that aren't really computing anything
18:53:59 <cpressey> Er - well I don't think it's possible to design such a computer, by the Halting Problem, but that's a side-track
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18:54:02 <augur> and i think if you asked turing whether or not his definition was intended to explore computationaly ALGORITHMS
18:54:07 <augur> or computational vagaries
18:54:10 <augur> he'd say algorithms
18:54:15 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: (Should I call the Halting Problem HP so you can have other hallucinations?)
18:54:19 <augur> ofcourse its possible
18:54:30 <augur> recognition of trivial loops do not violate the halting problem
18:54:52 <augur> precisely because their recognition is not itself a non-terminating program.
18:55:09 <cpressey> augur: I can get your machine to simulate while (true) {} by giving it any number of other equivalent loops which it cannot recognize
18:55:35 <Phantom_Hoover> We're getting into computational equivalence here, aren't we?
18:55:41 <augur> if your loop does anything in between cycles, then its not equivalent
18:55:59 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: (It was re your PDA vision. HP = Hewlett-Packard, get it?)
18:56:05 <augur> and if it doesnt do anything inside the loop, then its trivially detectable
18:56:15 <augur> we already know that trivial infinite loops are detectable
18:56:19 <augur> thats not where the halting problem comes from
18:56:41 <augur> the halting problem comes from paradoxical cases where proving that some program will halt is also a proof that it wont halt
18:56:45 <cpressey> augur: "Does anything"? I can give you thousands of pieces of code that are equivalent to doing nothing.
18:57:23 <augur> that doesnt do nothing
18:57:34 <augur> it has no effects outside of the loop
18:57:39 <augur> but inside the loop it stil does something
18:57:43 <augur> its equivalent OUTSIDE of the loop
18:57:49 <cpressey> if (collatzHalts) x++; if (goldbachIsTrue) x--;
18:57:52 <augur> but the behavior of the machine is not identical
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18:58:17 <augur> the point is that detection of trivial loops by behavior is possible
18:58:19 <cpressey> This is not about "behaviour of the machine", this is about "what functions can it compute or not compute".
18:58:30 <augur> and if you elminate any particular trivial loop, you cease to be TC
18:58:38 <Phantom_Hoover> augur, OK, so let's give that it eliminates trivial loops. It's still TC.
18:58:39 <augur> because you cant simulate some particular turing machine
18:58:54 <augur> but to be TC you have to be able to simulate EVERY turing machine
18:58:55 <cpressey> augur: Maybe my Turing machine can't read the letter A or produce the letter M. Therefore not TC?
18:59:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Lazy K is TC, but it works so non-TMily that you can't meaningfully compare them other than by which functions they can compute.
18:59:28 <augur> if you're simulating a turing machine, and your UTM design explicitly rejects turing machines that encode A's or M's somehow, then yes
18:59:33 <cpressey> That's equivalent to "Can't read this particular syntax that gives an empty loop." There are an infinite number of others that do the same thing.
18:59:52 <augur> yes there are, but a UTM needs to be able to simulate EVERY turing machine
19:00:04 <augur> thats what makes it universal
19:00:23 <augur> TCness means being able to simulate any turing machine.
19:00:41 <Phantom_Hoover> augur, no, not really. It means it's able to compute anything a TM can.
19:00:43 <augur> if Lazy K is TC it can simulate a TM
19:00:48 <augur> it might not BE a TM
19:00:51 <augur> but it can simulate one
19:01:39 <cpressey> augur: Yes. You misunderstand "simulate".
19:01:44 <augur> because i explicitly limited it to not be able to simulate a particular machine
19:02:12 <cpressey> A particular machine is only one of an infinite number that *perform the same computation*.
19:02:21 <augur> and programs and machines are not distinguishable in any real fashion
19:02:33 <cpressey> You might as well say, well, this UTM doesn't interpret the lambda caclulus, thus it isn't universal.
19:02:34 <augur> i can define a turing machine that is that program
19:02:51 <augur> my point being is that i can then forbid that particular machine
19:03:06 <augur> and the putative UTM stops being universal
19:03:07 <Phantom_Hoover> We have demonstrated that any computation a TM can do can be done by your restricted TM.
19:03:22 <augur> but that is not the definition of TCness
19:03:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Just by adding self-cancelling instructions into loops.
19:03:44 <augur> quote the wikipedia
19:03:45 <augur> "In computability theory, a collection of data-manipulation rules (an instruction set, programming language, or cellular automaton) is said to be Turing complete if and only if such system can simulate a single-taped Turing machine."
19:03:58 <augur> it is not simply enough to be able to compute the same functions
19:04:00 <cpressey> augur: If your UTM forbids machine X, then I just give your UTM, my UTM with X encoded as input to my UTM. Your UTM runs my UTM which runs X. Making your machine run X.
19:04:33 <augur> and there are finite means for detecting such recodings.
19:04:42 <cpressey> augur: Actually, there aren't.
19:04:46 <augur> actually there are.
19:04:49 <cpressey> There aren't even *decidable* means.
19:04:58 <augur> there are FINITE means.
19:05:11 <augur> tho decidable and finite i suppose in this case mean the same thing.
19:05:20 <cpressey> There aren't means that can be put in *your* UTM.
19:05:21 <augur> since all problems are solvable in finite time.
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19:05:43 <augur> i didnt say there were means that could be implemented in my particular UTM
19:05:48 <augur> tho there might be
19:05:53 <cpressey> No, not all problems are solvable in finite time. *Some problems are not solvable*.
19:05:57 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: nope
19:06:09 <augur> the wonderfully bizare thing about this whole proof theory/theory of computation mess
19:06:18 <Phantom_Hoover> augur, there is a problem that can't be solved in finite time. We've mentioned it already.
19:06:20 <cpressey> augur: By claiming you could build a machine that would not simulate X, you were claiming there were such means.
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19:06:25 <augur> is that knowing that you cant know is not the same as knowing that you know you cant know
19:06:46 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: there are lots of problems that cant be solved even in infinite time
19:06:57 <augur> but it only takes finite time to discover that they're not solvable.
19:07:25 <augur> the halting problem is one such example
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19:07:40 <augur> it is not merely unsolvable in finite time, it is inherently paradoxical and impossible to solve at all
19:08:02 <augur> what about the reimann hypothesis
19:08:30 <augur> i didnt say ALL undecidable problems are provably so
19:08:35 <augur> just that SOME are
19:08:58 <zzo38> while(1){x++;x--;} might have some effects in some cases if the optimizer won't remove it (or if it is marked as volatile). Such as, if x is at a invalid address it will be error, or, some memory mapped video or whatever, can have other effect
19:09:00 <augur> and in particular, the trivial infinite loops are provably infinite loops
19:09:17 <augur> well, the trivial infinite loops with no internal operations
19:09:18 <Phantom_Hoover> augur, and that makes not a jot of difference to the computational class.
19:09:32 <cpressey> augur: You don't seem to understand that disallowing "while (1) {}" does not make your machine non-Turing-complete.
19:09:39 <augur> cpressey: yes, it does
19:09:57 <augur> because you have forbidden certain turing machines
19:10:06 <zzo38> Why is there all Excess Flood at the top?
19:10:10 <augur> a whole class of turing machines that do certain endless things
19:10:27 <cpressey> augur: The lambda calculus forbids ALL Turing machines. Therefore it must not be Turing complete either!
19:10:28 <augur> and as a result, you are not capable of simulating them, and thus you're not TC
19:10:42 <augur> the lambda calculus simulates all turing machines
19:10:50 <zzo38> augur: But it depends what other functions you might have, you might be able to do other things with it too
19:11:03 <augur> i just said it doesnt, Phantom_Hoover
19:11:32 <zzo38> Such as, Icoruma has no kind of while loops, but you can still call yourself.
19:11:35 <Phantom_Hoover> You can put a UTM on it and make it simulate the forbidden ones!
19:11:41 <augur> I define a TM which is Turing Complete sans all TMs that are equivalent in behavior to while (true) {}
19:11:55 <zzo38> C preprocessor codes can also call themself by #include files.
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19:12:14 <augur> this machine is not turing complete by explicit declaration
19:12:15 <cpressey> augur: Be careful about "equivalent in behaviour" -- you mean "externally observable behaviour", right?
19:12:44 <augur> i mean the operation of the machine being simulated, or the operation of the machine being simulated by the machine being simulated, etc.
19:12:56 <augur> down the infinitude of ways of simulating
19:13:11 <cpressey> augur: That's not how Turing completeness is defined.
19:13:26 <augur> im not defining turing completeness
19:13:29 <augur> im defining non-turing completeness
19:13:38 <cpressey> You are using the definition of TC.
19:13:40 <augur> or rather, a particular machine that is not turing complete
19:14:16 <augur> you can define such a machine that will detect all trivial infinite loops of that sort, regardless of how many layers of simulation they go through
19:14:22 <augur> and it can do it in finite time
19:14:27 <augur> and without itself employing such a loop
19:14:53 <cpressey> A system is TC if it can compute every function that a Turing machine can. (roughly speaking.) It does not have to do every "operation" that the Turing machine does, nor does it have to be "equivalent in behaviour" at the states-and-transitions level. If it meant that, nothing except TMs could be TC.
19:15:06 <augur> that is not the definition of turing complete, sorry.
19:15:21 <augur> that is the definition of extensional equivalent of computers
19:15:25 <augur> which are different things entirely.
19:15:35 <cpressey> Errr no actually they're basically the same thing.
19:15:38 <augur> they're closely related, but they're not the same thing.
19:15:57 <ais523> the normal definition is to do with equivalence of halting behaviour on arbitrary input
19:16:05 <ais523> but it's rather unclear as to how the input is involved
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19:18:02 <augur> even without the ability to finitely detect these things, there is still a set of turing machines which will halt on all inputs that in some way or other would be a trivial loop
19:18:16 <augur> the decidability of that particular set is, ofcourse, irrelevant to the point
19:18:40 <augur> every member of that set is a turing machine which will halt on some program that they should not halt on if they were TC
19:18:43 <cpressey> augur: Not if you want to build that UTM, which I believe you said you could.
19:18:51 <augur> fine, forget building a UTM
19:19:06 <augur> the point i was trying to make was immaterial to the actual ability to do these things
19:19:15 <augur> the point was that such a TM is all but turing complete
19:20:02 <augur> and its only turing complete on a particular class of utterly useless loops that do no sort of computation but instead just cycle through some number of states endlessly
19:20:23 * cpressey looks sidelong at Phantom_Hoover
19:20:49 <augur> the fact that its might be impossible to say which turing machine is such a machine is irrelevant
19:21:03 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: not bad, not bad...
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19:21:17 <augur> infact, stated in those terms its trivial
19:21:30 <augur> and would catch all the equivalent x++x-- examples
19:21:53 <augur> a two tape turing machine, one for work and one for state tracking
19:22:02 <cpressey> augur: Yay, you just "effectively solved" the halting problem.
19:22:18 <cpressey> In the same sense that your finite tape machine is "effectively TC"
19:22:30 <augur> i didnt even remotely effectively solve it
19:23:05 <augur> the point i was making, however, is that something can be non-TC without being non-TC in any meaningful way
19:23:12 <cpressey> Well, there's a set of TMs which always halt. We don't know which ones they are. But identifying them is irrelevant!
19:23:44 <augur> well yes, it is irrelevant to the issue of whether or not there are some TMs that always halt
19:23:51 <augur> if the question is "do some TMs always halt?"
19:23:58 <augur> then it doesnt matter what the full set of those are
19:24:11 <augur> the only relevant thing is to find one that does, or find a proof that one does
19:24:18 <augur> the same is true of C being effectively TC
19:24:53 <augur> is there any halting computation that cannot be performed on some C program compiled for an arbitrarily large machine? no.
19:25:32 <augur> are there non-halting computations that will halt on arbitrarily large C machines? yes.
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19:26:33 <augur> the theory of computation has little to say about non-halting computations because there's not much _to_ say, if the object of inquiry is the computation of functions
19:27:06 <augur> non-halting machines do not compute functions, they simply work on memory.
19:27:11 <cpressey> augur: So why do you think Turing included the section on Enumeration machines in his original paper?
19:28:06 <augur> because there IS this theoretical construct in which a machine that takes infinite time does actually halt via some magical process
19:28:36 <augur> and because non-halting machines are still useful for lots of things
19:28:58 <cpressey> Thought there was not much to say about them
19:29:24 <augur> there isnt. hence why there isn't much said
19:29:32 <cpressey> But they're useful for lots of things.
19:29:41 <augur> which, non-halting computations?
19:29:53 <cpressey> Did you not just say just that?
19:29:56 <augur> sure, but then you're outside the realm of computational equivalence and into _behavioral_ equivalence.
19:30:16 <cpressey> So, a computation cannot have an infinite result?
19:30:42 <cpressey> Not sure how this disqualifies it from computational equivalence.
19:30:44 <augur> its a hypercomputation
19:31:12 <augur> which is beyond the realm of TCness
19:31:57 <augur> my point is that while C is not _actually_ TC, the ways in which it is not TC are like the ways in which a UTM-minus-trivial-loops is not TC
19:32:31 <augur> well you show me how then.
19:33:02 <cpressey> Give me a UTM-minus-infinite-loops, and I can still write any program I want for it.
19:33:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Because a) C is an FSM and b) UTM-minus-trivial-loops is TC unless you invoke superturing stuff.
19:33:13 <augur> cpressey: not one that loops infinitely!
19:33:38 <cpressey> Give me a UTM-minus-*trivial*-infinite-loops, and I can still write any program I want for it.
19:33:46 <augur> no, dont even worry about triviality
19:33:47 <cpressey> That was your example from before, was it not?
19:33:55 <augur> take any non-trivial infinite loop, honestly, it doesnt matter
19:34:02 <augur> take any non-halting turing machine if you want
19:34:20 <cpressey> Give me a UTM-minus-*all*-infinite-loops and I'll give you a solution to the Halting Problem.
19:34:21 <augur> thats actually completely fine, the triviality was merely to point out that its possible to do in finite time
19:35:39 <augur> i shouldve said any non-halting looping machine, actually not simply any non-halting machine
19:35:50 <augur> no you wont, because its no longer universal, and therefore cannot answer correctly that a machine with no loops but with non-halting non-loops.
19:36:05 <augur> there are plenty of turing machines that do not halt but do not loop
19:36:44 <cpressey> From the point of view of computabilty, only halting matters. Who cares if the machine "loops" or not, whatever that means?
19:36:56 <augur> it matters because loops are deciable
19:37:07 <augur> well, detection of them is decidable
19:37:15 <augur> all you need to do is record the state of your simulated machine
19:37:24 <augur> eventually itll cycle through a previous state
19:37:28 <augur> in some finite amount of time
19:37:49 <augur> loop detection is decidable
19:38:15 <augur> but a machine that does not simulate a machine with loops is not TC, even if it simulates everything else
19:38:26 <augur> thats a boring, uninteresting kind of non-TC-ness
19:38:32 <augur> yeah sure its technically not TC
19:38:43 <augur> but big fucking deal
19:39:06 <cpressey> augur: You are boring and uninteresting, too.
19:39:20 <augur> you wanted to argue with me so you got it
19:39:35 <augur> if you didnt want to be bored, you shouldnt argue things that you're wrong about.
19:40:09 <augur> or you should at least not argue them with someone who's willing to spend hours to demonstrate that you're wrong.
19:40:27 <cpressey> ...at any cost, it would seem.
19:40:40 <augur> if the cost is to social relationships, its not a cost at all
19:40:49 <augur> if the cost is to my happiness, i cant say im any less happy as a result
19:41:04 <cpressey> Well, I would say that the cost is to truth, but maybe you don't believe in that either.
19:41:15 <augur> theres no cost to truth either
19:41:24 <augur> because nothing ive said was false.
19:41:47 <cpressey> augur: You corrected yourself several times.
19:41:59 <augur> if i corrected myself, then it didnt cost truth.
19:41:59 <cpressey> Therefore, you must have said at least one false thing, at one point.
19:44:06 <cpressey> Actually, that last is a great example of defending yourself at any cost.
19:44:23 <augur> im sure you think that
19:44:39 <augur> but in the end, i was right, you were wrong
19:44:43 <augur> and thats all that matters.
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19:45:51 <augur> poor cpressey. hurt and insulted by a simple discussion about C and turing completeness
19:45:51 <Phantom_Hoover> And the award for obnoxious bloody-mindedness goes to: augur!
19:46:05 <augur> im happy to be blood-minded about things that dont matter.
19:46:14 <Phantom_Hoover> augur, no, by the fact that he couldn't punch you in the face, which you deserved.
19:46:29 <augur> you and he deserved it more than i ever did
19:47:00 <augur> not the least because you'd punch someone in the face over something as inconsequential as this
19:47:56 <Phantom_Hoover> You know, I'm going to stop discussing this. You aren't going to be convinced you're wrong.
19:48:09 <augur> well why should i be when im not
19:48:12 <augur> that would be silly
19:48:34 <augur> we've already established that detection of looping behavior is decidable
19:48:46 <augur> which is not, by the way, news to anyone with any actual ToC experience
19:49:21 <augur> which demonstrates that lack of TCness is not necessarily a significant constraint on a machine
19:49:34 <augur> which is the only point i was trying to make about C
19:49:55 <Phantom_Hoover> It is the case with C; there are problems that are not solvable by C.
19:51:14 <augur> thats perhaps not solvable for a string of arbitrary size
19:51:21 <augur> and a machine of different arbitrary size
19:51:40 <augur> but the same is true of any programming language on a finite machine
19:52:05 <augur> however, for all strings, there exists some finite machine on which C can solve the problem for that string.
19:52:53 <augur> unless the string is infinitely long, but that computation wouldnt halt and has no answer
19:53:19 <augur> at least no turing computation would halt
19:54:02 <augur> the point remains: there is no halting computation which C cannot compute. there are merely halting computations which some particular machine running C code cannot compute
19:56:40 <augur> but the same is true of any programming language on any machine
19:56:41 <augur> except abstract machines, i mean.
19:56:41 <augur> and thus, we come full circle: C might not be TC, but is only not TC in an uninteresting sense.
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20:00:08 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: my suggestion is, if at any point in the future i describe something as silly
20:00:13 <augur> dont argue with me
20:00:13 <Gregor-W> I think the real argument is that you can't even define a C compiler targeting an abstract machine that would be TC, because too many details of real machines are baked into the language, namely maximum memory size.
20:00:54 <Gregor-W> (Sorry, didn't read the whole backlog, not sure if I'm arguing something that's already been argued)
20:00:57 <augur> Gregor-W: probably true, tho irrelevant, because you can always define maxmemsize to be larger than it is.
20:01:08 <Gregor-W> augur: Not when it IS infinite.
20:01:33 <augur> im not entirely sure of that, but im not going to argue either way
20:01:49 <augur> i would just say that anything that requires infinite memory is a silly computation to perform
20:01:53 <zzo38> Unless, you can modify C to add some new commands, such as "integer" and "real" and disallow sizeof to be used on them
20:02:06 <augur> and if you disagree you can timetravel into the past and relive the last hour :)
20:02:07 <Gregor-W> The only argument I've heard that I found compelling that could maybe make it almost make sense is that if you had infinite memory AND infinite-sized words, then sizeof(void*) could in fact be infinity, which would make everything "work"
20:02:23 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: any halting computation requires only finite memory
20:02:32 <Gregor-W> augur: But you can't predict how much memory it will require.
20:02:45 <augur> you hit the memory wall, then you upgrade
20:03:03 <augur> i would have to recompile
20:03:11 <Gregor-W> Yeah, upgrading your machine is not part of C X-P
20:03:27 <augur> Gregor-W: nor is the output of the compiled code :)
20:03:47 <Gregor-W> augur: The computation can depend on sizeof(void *), so you may end up with a different computation in the upgraded machine.
20:03:50 <zzo38> What else you could do is, make a kind of C that numbers and pointers are not interchangeable, even though you can add numbers and pointers together
20:03:57 <augur> Gregor-W: possibly.
20:04:09 <augur> but again, i would classify that distinction as a silly
20:04:14 <augur> the program is still written in C
20:04:18 <augur> the compile product might be different
20:04:24 <augur> but the C source is the same
20:04:30 <augur> and the language spec is the same
20:04:36 <augur> so the language is not the limitation here
20:05:00 <augur> i imagine you could interpret it
20:05:14 <augur> but it'd be a bitch of an interpreter to write
20:05:21 <augur> infact, it sounds like something someone here would do
20:05:36 <augur> so long as it was written in brainfuck
20:08:05 <augur> also, zzo38: the suggestion of making numbers not interchangable with pointers was something i suggested before the argument got anywhere interesting
20:08:16 <augur> the response was that that was no longer C
20:08:26 <augur> which is true, but also true in an uninteresting way :P
20:09:04 <Phantom_Hoover> augur, uninteresting in the sense that a load of C programs would cease to work?
20:10:08 <augur> backwards compatibility is not my concern ;)
20:10:29 <zzo38> You could still allow pointers to be used as boolean values (many C programs require it)
20:10:35 <augur> uninteresting in the sense that any program that ceases to work was probably a hack or written out of ignorance
20:12:06 <zzo38> Which letters are missing? http://sprunge.us/VJAR
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20:14:25 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, pointer → bool is definitely not standards compliant.
20:15:28 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: OK, so it probably isn't standards compliant. A lot of programs use it. Also some programs use GNU extensions to C. And other things.
20:16:54 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, assuming NULL is 0 is non-compliant because NULL is undefined. It could be 0xDEADBEEF for all you know.
20:17:46 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Yes. Still, NULL==0 is very common. Although you should still avoid such things as that (and other things) if you want to be standard compliant.
20:18:43 <zzo38> And even if NULL is not zero, it should be somewhat reasonable to make a compiler where a pointer used as boolean is false if NULL and true otherwise
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20:21:36 <zzo38> (You can have a #pragma setting that tells it whether or not the current module should treat pointer->boolean this way, and if assigning 0 to a pointer makes it NULL, and then you can turn off this setting in some other modules that contain platform-specific codes.)
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20:57:32 <zzo38> Now we are arguing about http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/icosahedral/printout/main.dvi
20:57:52 <zzo38> (This time about the actual text more, and less about the formatting. Although comment on the formatting as well if you want to)
20:58:28 <zzo38> (The file is available as PDF also, in case you prefer PDF)
20:59:49 <zzo38> Please read the texts I have added, and tell me if is understandable and stuff and so on, about if you think is good, if you have other suggestion, etc
21:03:06 <zzo38> Please tell me your opinion of this game?
21:04:28 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: NULL is not 0, but (void*)0 is NULL.
21:04:46 <pikhq> Even if the literal value of NULL is not 0, (void*)0 is NULL.
21:05:56 <Phantom_Hoover> So wait, if (malloc(1)) must always be false if malloc fails?
21:06:38 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:06:47 <pikhq> Yes. NULL is always false.
21:06:49 <Gregor-W> pikhq, Phantom_Hoover: This is perhaps the most confusing conversation you two have ever had :P
21:07:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor-W, what other confusing conversations have we had?
21:07:36 <Gregor-W> That's my point? Maybe? Idonno.
21:08:18 <zzo38> It makes sense NULL is always false, but what happens for if you are writing platform-specific codes you want accessing address zero? That is why you should have the #pragma that I described
21:09:08 <pikhq> zzo38: The result of casting from a number to a pointer is implementation-defined, so...
21:09:37 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: There are various possible reasons, depending on the hardware, it might be useful in some cases
21:09:48 <Phantom_Hoover> The only time you'd want to do that would be when writing really low-level OS code, at which point NULL isn't even meaningful.
21:10:27 <zzo38> I suppose if it is platform-specific you can write some codes in assembly language even
21:11:44 <Phantom_Hoover> If you actually need to twiddle with explicit addresses, you probably don't have malloc and friends.
21:13:38 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Yes. But what if the C compiler on that platform defines something other than zero as NULL and you write ((void*)0) then it don't works??????????????????
21:14:57 <zzo38> I don't need to define NULL to be something other than zero, but if some platforms do so, what are you going to do?
21:15:15 <coppro> zzo38: that will work 100%
21:15:32 <coppro> casting an integral constant of 0 to a pointer type gives the null value
21:15:48 <Gregor-W> No one, past present or future, will EVER define NULL to be anything other than 0. Furthermore, no one, past present or future, will EVER define casts between ints and pointers to be anything but their obvious semantics. EV-ER.
21:15:51 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, *0 is perfectly legitimate C, it will just segfault on pretty much anything.
21:16:40 <zzo38> Yes and I have written things like *0 to make the program deliverately segfault when I wanted to put breakpoints into the source file
21:17:58 <Gregor-W> That won't break in a debugger.
21:18:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Debuggers already have breakpoints. They're called breakpoints.
21:19:09 <zzo38> Yes, and the debugger breakpoint is useful for setting breakpoints at run time. But it doesn't help if you want to add breakpoints into the source file.
21:19:52 <zzo38> And what might happen if a line number occurs multiple times in a source file, what will the debugger do with that?
21:20:17 <zzo38> (Such as, by using #line command)
21:20:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Anyway, I accept that using segfaults for breakpoints is sometimes sensible.
21:20:56 <zzo38> Is it permitted to use the #line command to mention files that do not exist?
21:22:16 <zzo38> Other programs might cause a line number multiple times, such as Enhanced CWEB
21:23:20 <zzo38> Normal CWEB does this as well, but with Enhanced CWEB you might have the same line number multiple times but with a different code on the line each time, in some cases.
21:24:23 <zzo38> Perhaps it is? But I am OK with that
21:30:10 <zzo38> In addition, there are cases where a chunk might be used multiple times, but the C preprocessor might make them different each time (this can happen even in normal CWEB), such as "#define global extern" and put @<Global variables@> in heading file and then "#define global" as just blank for in main file, which some programs do.
21:32:17 <zzo38> Has it taken you some amount of time to figure out if I am insane?
21:38:21 <zzo38> And, do you have any opinion about Icosahedral RPG?
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22:53:31 <cpressey> zzo38: Can yesweb handle multiple languages in the same document?
22:53:58 <cpressey> Like, if I write some modules of my program in (Literate) Pascal, and some in (Literate) C, and I want to make a PDF of the whole thing...
22:54:23 <cpressey> (I don't need to do this. I just thought I'd ask)
22:54:48 <zzo38> cpressey: Yes. yesweb does support multiple languages in same document.
22:55:02 <Phantom_Hoover> According to an utterly unreliable "study", iPhone users get more sex than BlackBerry or Android users.
22:55:27 <zzo38> However, to output to multiple files you need to define a macro for that (it is simple to do).
22:55:45 <zzo38> So, it is not built-in, but it is easy to add.
22:56:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Is there a way in Haskell to get an appropriate "null" value for an arbitrary type?
22:56:18 <zzo38> (I can add it to yesweb.tex if I want to or if someone else does or if it is seen as common enough)
22:56:45 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: Maybe a where a is your type?
22:56:57 <oerjan> then use Nothing for null and Just x for x
22:57:36 <cpressey> Not using something like Maybe seems... not possible.
22:57:37 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: there as some type classes that have null values sort of, but they're far from all types
22:58:37 <cpressey> I think you'd have to have a function on your typeclass that tells you what member the "null" is.
22:58:42 <zzo38> There are different models of Android phones, but I read about Geeksphone which might be the best kind of Android phone
22:58:52 <oerjan> you are free to define such a class yourself, of course
22:58:57 <zzo38> Can you have a type like "Maybe Maybe Maybe Maybe Maybe Maybe Maybe Maybe Number"?
22:59:26 <oerjan> zzo38: sure, except you need some parentheses there
23:00:03 <Phantom_Hoover> You can even have IO (Maybe (Maybe (IO (State Int ()))))
23:00:14 <oerjan> darn EgoBot and its useless error messages
23:00:31 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: no, definitely EgoBot
23:00:46 <zzo38> Do you ever have a use for that kind of types like I described?
23:01:08 <cpressey> zzo38: I was trying to think of a "serious" use for that, but I can't.
23:01:22 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, well, you might sometimes. If you want to mix State and IO, you would do that kind of thing.
23:01:24 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: yes, which is useless, due to the way it throws away ghci errors and tries module compilation with runghc instead
23:01:48 <cpressey> You would almost always want to combine multiple Maybes into a single Maybe.
23:02:27 <oerjan> !haskell :info MonadZero
23:02:41 <Phantom_Hoover> But other combinations of monads are perfectly justified.
23:02:45 <EgoBot> Commands available from the prompt:
23:03:26 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, in any case, mzero isn't really what I was looking for.
23:04:11 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i was just trying to find out if mzero was MonadZero (it was) or Monoid, and what the one for the other was (mempty)
23:04:39 <oerjan> of course Num types have 0
23:05:10 <EgoBot> Just (Just 1) :: (Num t) => Maybe (Maybe t)
23:05:28 <EgoBot> Just Nothing :: Maybe (Maybe a)
23:05:31 <zzo38> Implement the SARTRE integer in Haskell.
23:05:43 <zzo38> (The SARTRE integer can have two values, either zero or duck sauce)
23:06:02 <cpressey> !haskell data SartreInteger = Zero | DuckSauce
23:06:05 <Sgeo__> data SARTRE = Zero | Du..
23:06:18 <cpressey> EgoBot tried to hurt me for that
23:06:46 <zzo38> But you have to make it it can be used like "0" like any other numbers?
23:06:58 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
23:07:13 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: anyway haskell provides Maybe precisely to _discourage_ you from considering arbitrary types to have null elements, it's considered a _wart_ to have nearly all types have nulls like in Java etc.
23:09:20 <oerjan> a data definition is neither a ghci command/expression nor a standalone program (needs a main function)
23:09:31 <Sgeo__> If you make it an instance of Num, you'd be able to add, subtract, ec
23:11:03 <oerjan> zzo38: instance Num SARTRE where fromInteger 0 = Zero; fromInteger _ = DuckSauce + lots of other methods
23:11:37 <oerjan> (fromInteger is the one which gives you numerical literals)
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23:13:13 <oerjan> i've tried it in EgoBot before and if you don't include all the necessary methods it just aborts with a warning
23:13:18 <Sgeo__> My dad's suggesting I take benedril to help me go to sleep
23:13:41 <Sgeo__> No, wikipedia, I did not mean a pokemon
23:15:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Although hitting yourself in the head with a lambda may help with sleeping.
23:16:16 <augur> i often do something analogous to hitting myself in the head with a lambda
23:17:19 <augur> my sleep generally ends up involving me in a semi-conscious state trying to understand how it is that i, as a function of some variables, will ever get back to sleep since im simply laying in bed and not being applied to any values
23:17:26 <augur> which would apparently constitute
23:17:42 <augur> and i do mean that literally
23:17:54 <augur> the other day i was doing a lot of categorial-grammar related stuff
23:18:07 <augur> which is essentially type-level functions with directionality
23:18:23 <augur> and at one point i wont up slightly, and ended up having that exact thought
23:18:24 <zzo38> augur: Yes I do sometimes think of strange things like that while sleeping, but probably not quite that
23:18:38 <augur> and it wasnt some metaphorical interpretation of sexual loneliness
23:18:42 <augur> unless you dig really deep
23:18:53 <augur> it was a literal thing
23:19:17 <zzo38> Yes I mean it in the same way, it is never anything about sexual loneliness
23:19:36 <augur> it was very bizarre
23:20:13 <augur> well i fell asleep
23:20:14 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: I don't actually know, I just guess. But when I am sleep I think of strange things, of various strange things, some of which are impossible to describe, but it has nothing to do with sexual loneliness
23:20:45 * Phantom_Hoover thought a while ago that computers were basically machine code interpreters written in universe.
23:20:48 <augur> but in the context of the metaphor i decided that i must be a thunk, not a proper function or else i wasnt going to fall asleep any time soon
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23:21:00 <augur> its all perversely sexually interpretable, lol
23:21:20 <augur> but its entirely a result of me working on a parser
23:21:21 <zzo38> augur: Of course I suppose anything can be if you want it to be.
23:21:33 <zzo38> (But I don't want it to be)
23:21:49 <Phantom_Hoover> augur, no such things as thunks in the pure lambda calculus, though.
23:22:33 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: true enough, but thats ok
23:29:33 * Phantom_Hoover wonders if alise has heard about Multics' memory model.
23:41:12 <augur> whatd she outline?
23:43:02 <zzo38> Here is the new version of yesweb with output of multiple files: http://sprunge.us/YVXY
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00:00:10 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, the 64-bit Unix ABI specifies that the xmm registers are used for floats and doubles..
00:27:03 <oklopol> "<augur> my sleep generally ends up involving ..." <<< when i'm half asleep, reading math, i sometimes get these sudden feelings that one mathematical object in a definition is angry with another one, or that some things have a love affair, sometimes a rather complicated scenario can appear, where all the mathematical objects are humans with certain roles in some human interaction vaguely similar to what's being defined or proven
00:27:20 <oklopol> and when it happens i usually try to keep reading without falling to sleep because it's fucking awesome
00:28:01 <oklopol> (i mean the scenario doesn't evolve or anything, but i continue in hope that it happens again)
00:28:12 <augur> will you be my argument tonight
00:28:48 <oklopol> i wish i remembered these... i guess they are sort of microdreams because i can't seem to remember them for very long
00:29:28 <Phantom_Hoover> The mathematical love affairs were interesting. Try reading a romance novel and a maths book at the same time.
00:31:34 <augur> oklopol: BE MY ARGUMENT
00:31:39 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, presumably because it tends to be typeset in non-monospaced fonts.
00:31:54 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: so is math, so can't be the reason
00:31:58 <augur> I WANT TO PUT YOU IN MY BODY
00:32:20 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: more haskellish plx.
00:32:26 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, can you just not make sense of the words, or do you just not like it?
00:32:48 <oklopol> oerjan: let's not get carried away
00:32:50 <augur> thats backwards, oerjan
00:33:03 <augur> i dont think =<< is defined at all
00:33:13 <oerjan> eviscerates? i don't think we're thinking of the same monad
00:33:43 <augur> whats reverse-bind do?
00:33:46 <oerjan> !haskell [1,2,3] =<< [4,5]
00:33:48 <augur> besides bind, i mean
00:33:57 <Phantom_Hoover> It provides an interface between computations in the brain and the body.
00:33:58 <augur> oerjan, thats not a function
00:34:10 <augur> [4,5] >>= [1,2,3] is a type error.
00:34:19 <oerjan> !haskell const [1,2,3] =<< [4,5]
00:34:20 <Phantom_Hoover> So bind rips a person's brain out of their body and applies the other one to it.
00:34:38 <Phantom_Hoover> As such, oklopol >>= return is effectively a brain transplant.
00:34:59 <oerjan> augur: it's just the same with arguments swapped, for when you want "arguments" to go last like with ordinary functions
00:35:12 <augur> !haskell [4,5] >>= const [1,2,3]
00:35:21 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol >>= augur probably takes augur's body and puts oklopol's brain in it.
00:35:27 <oklopol> wait what's wrong with mine
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00:35:44 <EgoBot> (>>) :: (Monad m) => m a -> m b -> m b
00:35:53 <augur> >> is just sequencing
00:36:12 <augur> its basically >>= where the argument of the function is _
00:36:41 <oklopol> that's why i thought [1,2,3] << [4,5] is [4,5] >>= const [1,2,3].
00:36:50 <oerjan> augur: =<< is better for combining with . as they have the same "direction of flow"
00:37:22 <oklopol> so why didn't mine work then
00:37:29 <augur> << isnt defined is why
00:37:35 <oklopol> or is << not defined, ego said something about problems with ++
00:37:50 <oklopol> /tmp/input.19254.hs:1:33: parse error on input `++'
00:37:58 <Phantom_Hoover> augur, probably because if they defined every variant on every operator then Haskell would be enormous.
00:37:59 <oklopol> therefore i assumed << is defined
00:38:07 <oklopol> given that it's a parse error
00:38:11 <oklopol> that was a bit stupid of me
00:38:15 <augur> did you just type ++
00:38:18 <augur> or did you type (++)
00:38:23 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, you assumed that GHC error reporting was going to be clear?
00:38:26 <oklopol> i tope "!haskell [1,2,3] << [4,5]"
00:38:39 <EgoBot> concatMap :: (a -> [b]) -> [a] -> [b] -- Defined in GHC.List
00:38:58 <oklopol> but as i said: silly of me
00:39:11 <oerjan> !haskell [1,2,3] << [4,5]
00:39:25 <oerjan> oklopol: says nothing about ++ for me
00:39:46 <augur> are you just typing ++
00:39:54 <augur> and getting the parse error?
00:39:57 <augur> or are you typing (++)
00:39:58 <oklopol> i don't have a haskell interp or compiler
00:40:15 <augur> so where the fuck did "/tmp/input.19254.hs:1:33: parse error on input `++'" come from
00:40:18 <augur> dont make me fuck you up
00:40:32 <augur> what did you type to egobot
00:40:49 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: i mostly talk about math and design languages
00:41:32 <oklopol> augur: i tope "!haskell [1,2,3] << [4,5]", as i said; in any case i retried and now it says "<interactive>:1:117: Not in scope: `Main.main'"
00:41:33 <Phantom_Hoover> augur, operators need either to have both arguments or be bracketed, otherwise they are syntax errors.
00:41:45 <EgoBot> (++) :: [a] -> [a] -> [a] -- Defined in GHC.Base
00:41:48 <EgoBot> (++) :: [a] -> [a] -> [a] -- Defined in GHC.Base
00:42:01 <oklopol> oh and "tope" means "typed" in case you don't know olden golden english
00:42:04 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: i know this
00:42:08 <oklopol> they said tope in the 1500's
00:42:09 <augur> which is why i was asking oklopol
00:42:11 <oerjan> augur: (++) is a function and has no printable form by default
00:42:43 <oerjan> !haskell [1,2,3] << [4,5]
00:43:09 <oklopol> augur: to tell this a third time, for fun, i did not type ++ anywhere, in fact it's months since i typed it.
00:43:27 <oerjan> oklopol: that's weird i just get a simple parse error with no mention of ++
00:43:32 <augur> be my argument tonight <3
00:43:54 <oklopol> <EgoBot> /tmp/input.19886.hs:2:0:
00:43:54 <oklopol> <EgoBot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation)
00:44:06 <oerjan> oklopol: that's what i got, essentially
00:44:20 <Phantom_Hoover> I have GHCi on my computer. << is not defined in the Prelude or in Control.Monad.
00:44:45 <oklopol> i'll try once more, gave me parse error again
00:45:01 <oklopol> seems it's now consistently a parse error
00:46:06 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: we're not trying to make << work, we're just wondering why EgoBot apparently gives oklopol strangely inconsistent error messages to that
00:46:26 <oerjan> involving ++ at least one time
00:46:46 <Sgeo__> "I try hard to forget Perl every day"
00:47:16 <Sgeo__> That reminds me, I'm taking a class on Perl this upcoming semester :(
00:47:22 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, well, doesn't !haskell do weird things if GHCi complains?
00:47:26 <EgoBot> That is not a user interpreter!
00:47:34 <oklopol> oerjan: are these definitions standard: given a cayley graph G with generators X = {g_1, ..., g_n}, we define norms on strings over X by calculating the amounts of uses of each g_i (k-norms and shit), and then we define the norm of an element as the minimal norm of a representation as string over X, then we can define balls as usual and ellipsoids by weighing generators differently when computing the norm
00:47:45 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: yes. but the message should still be the same each time...
00:48:33 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: oh it just puts it in a file and loads that file as a module with runghc, afaik
00:49:11 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, which command exactly caused the weird error?
00:49:27 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: the one you've been bloody complaining about!
00:50:18 <oklopol> apart from the ellipsoids, i'm basically asking if cayley graphs usually inherit the normal metric of the graph
00:50:38 <oklopol> the ellipsoid is fun because we can generalize things like rectangles
00:51:01 <oklopol> because rectangles are the ellipsoids in Z^2 with the infinity norm
00:51:13 <oklopol> with the usualy generators
00:51:39 <oerjan> oklopol: oh hm wait i think i may know what happened. EgoBot has a bug that sometimes causes it to give the response for one command only after the next one... you must have got the response to one of augur's ++ tests
00:52:07 <oklopol> i got two though, but i guess that's just how god made me
00:52:26 <oklopol> i don't get how people don't find cayley graphs so fucking sexy
00:52:30 <oerjan> maybe it happened with both of his tests...
00:53:51 <oklopol> i mean half the lemmas for finite semigroups can be reduced to tracing paths on the cayley graph (the two lemmas i know, that, i just generalized this for arbitrary proofs)
00:54:13 <oklopol> have i mentioned i'm an idiot
00:54:53 <oerjan> but then, as an idiot your word cannot be trusted on such matters
00:55:37 <oklopol> true, only that who are truly smart can know he is not know much things.
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01:00:52 <oerjan> darn i cannot open new internet connections
01:08:21 <Sgeo__> http://www.fiveminute.net/nextgen/comic.php?ep=encounteratfarpoint&page=1
01:12:52 <Sgeo__> Meh, the non-comic is better
01:13:02 <Sgeo__> I'm still reading the comic for some reason
01:17:25 <Sgeo__> "Yar: I don't waste time thinking. Life is short. Really, really short.
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03:01:55 <Sgeo__> Nurse Ogawa: ...and he also seems to be pregnant.
03:01:55 <Sgeo__> Crusher: But that's impossible! We were really carefu--
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03:04:23 <Sgeo__> Worf: Good news, Doctor. The new Trill host, Kareel, is finally here.
03:04:23 <Sgeo__> Crusher: Where? I don't see anyone.
03:04:23 <Sgeo__> Worf: Our guest first had to stop by the ladies' room.
03:04:23 <Sgeo__> Crusher: That's strange. Is the men's washroom broken?
03:04:23 <Sgeo__> Worf: It is working considerably better than your ability to take a hint.
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03:25:52 <Sgeo__> Oh sure, TOS is legally available online, but not TNG
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03:48:58 <Sgeo__> Worf: Good news, Doctor. The new Trill host, Kareel, is finally here.
03:48:58 <Sgeo__> Crusher: Where? I don't see anyone.
03:48:58 <Sgeo__> Worf: Our guest first had to stop by the ladies' room.
03:48:58 <Sgeo__> Crusher: That's strange. Is the men's washroom broken?
03:48:58 <Sgeo__> Worf: It is working considerably better than your ability to take a hint.
03:49:05 <Sgeo__> Paris: Did you just spoil the plot for the sake of a lame DS9 reference? Neelix, Neelix, Neelix....
03:50:22 <Sgeo__> Janeway: Janeway to all hands: turns out we're all fictional.
03:55:25 <oerjan> but you just ruined my comment!
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11:59:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Supposedly Microsoft misdocumented the API calling convention to say that arguments were passed left-to-right rather than right-to-left.
11:59:25 <Phantom_Hoover> How did these people corner the home computer market, again?
12:14:03 <asiekierka> Phantom_Hoover: Internet Explorer 4 through 6 and being the first OS that's not a pain to use (Windows 95), why?
12:14:13 <asiekierka> that was when Linux was almost useless for a newbie
12:16:22 <asiekierka> they used the occasion and made an (largely crap when they integrated IE and slowed their OS down) OS useful for the average Joe
12:23:53 <olsner> around the time of IE4, it was really cool that it could make files act like links, underlined and single-click
12:24:01 <olsner> it was like "omg, the web! in my desktop!"
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12:41:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo__, did you succeed in hitting yourself in the head with a lambda?
12:42:02 <Sgeo__> I succeeded in being very tired, but not sleeping
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13:03:39 <Sgeo__> School starts... I don't know when School starts, exactly
13:04:39 <Sgeo__> By school I mean college, btw
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13:57:07 <olsner> if the mandelbrot set is not computable, could it be [used to implement something] turing complete?
13:57:34 * Sgeo__ reads the Seaside book
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15:59:27 <Gregor> Observation: When Ryan North asks for guest Dinosaur Comics, he gets T-Rex/Utahraptor slash action.
16:11:01 <Slereah> Well, not too surprising, since we know they used to be gay lovers
16:16:28 <Gregor> It's arguably how canon that is. But then, guest comics aren't canon anyway.
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16:45:33 <Slereah> That's assuming that it has any canon at all
16:45:48 <Slereah> Instead of being just a string of mostly unrelated jokes
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17:13:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, would Hackiki and the bots be vulnerable to f00foids?
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17:29:53 * cpressey is waiting for someone to implement Thue in an NSIS script
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17:52:27 <Phantom_Hoover> What does a::=hello\ab::=world\::=\ab evaluate to in Thue?
17:53:40 <cpressey> I would guess it evaluate to either or "hellob" or "world"
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17:54:43 * Phantom_Hoover wants to try wearing ridiculous clothes, getting some random leaflets and walking down the Royal Mile and see if the street performers and leaflet out-handers leave him alone.
17:58:41 <pikhq> God damned torrent.
17:58:55 <pikhq> 1.4 megabytes left, and not getting any of it.
18:00:02 <pikhq> ... So I'm going through my ~/audio dir and trying to get FLACs for everything.
18:10:26 <cpressey> Useless trivia: libslang is part of the Ubuntu server base system.
18:10:38 <cpressey> S-Lang, now there's a language!
18:11:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Why are there so many languages that are variants of the exact same concept?
18:12:34 <cpressey> Because they were implemented... "they stick quite well"
18:13:44 <cpressey> Why they were implemented... probably mostly NIH
18:14:56 <cpressey> It would be nice to destroy S-Lang, NSIS, AutoKey, etc etc and replace them all with Lua
18:16:03 <cpressey> Actually, I take "mostly NIH" back. There's a subtle effect in play where the language *grows* out of "Let's make it configurizable"
18:16:32 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, where the config system grows to the point that it becomes a language in itself?
18:16:57 <cpressey> S-Lang is not like that, but a lot of other ones are.
18:17:09 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: can i remove the toplevel ' plugin', and in a muslim country no less. unless you're coding perhaps.
18:18:16 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Yes. And AutoHotKey (is its real name). And once there was this terminal program for Windows and it had its own scripting language called Aspect... oh man. Yeah.
18:18:55 <cpressey> AutoHotKey is the real name for "AutoKey". NSIS is NSIS. Not related. Just to clarify
18:19:57 <cpressey> Oh, and there was this point of sale system I worked with once with its own really crappy language for its "screens"... well n/m, you get the idea.
18:20:46 <Phantom_Hoover> I suppose the languages are generally shoddily-implemented and slow?
18:23:17 <cpressey> In effect, PHP comes from this school too.
18:28:29 <Phantom_Hoover> And then there's zsh, which is basically the epitome of evolution of stuff.
18:28:44 <cpressey> It's a little different, I grant. But the "evolution into a language" thing is definitely there.
18:29:02 <Phantom_Hoover> I love the way that sentence starts off fairly eloquently and then descends to using "stuff".
18:34:00 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.13261: line 1: zsh: command not found
18:36:14 <Phantom_Hoover> ZSH has a facility to use readliney editing on variable.
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19:00:18 <AnMaster> * cpressey is waiting for someone to implement Thue in an NSIS script <-- augh
19:00:29 <AnMaster> <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, would Hackiki and the bots be vulnerable to f00foids? <-- what are f00foids?
19:02:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Since f00f is obviously not dangerous on modern processors.
19:02:50 <AnMaster> cpressey, bash is a quite nice shell to tell the truth
19:03:01 <AnMaster> some prefer zsh, a bit too bloated for my taste
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19:03:22 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, he didn't say it wasn't, he just said that it had evolved into a language.
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19:04:02 <AnMaster> <Phantom_Hoover> Ooh, it has a TCP library. <-- bash has the /dev/tcp pseudo device
19:04:40 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, think it is client only
19:09:48 <pikhq> AnMaster: Does bash have an editor in it?
19:11:15 <AnMaster> pikhq, unless you mean line editing
19:11:26 <AnMaster> pikhq, perhaps someone implemented one though
19:13:50 <AnMaster> pikhq, I know busybox does, but that is kind of cheating
19:13:57 <AnMaster> since it is so much more than a shell
19:14:10 <AnMaster> pikhq, link or it didn't happen
19:14:42 * pikhq looks for citation
19:16:01 <pikhq> Hmm. No, zed got removed a while back.
19:17:52 * Sgeo__ watches the Professor Moriarty eps of TNG
19:20:19 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, there is a file editor in zsh, but it's limited and hacky. There's probably a better one.
19:20:52 <Phantom_Hoover> As I said, it provides a facility to edit the contents of variables, and it has a module that enables it to map files to variables.
19:21:27 <Phantom_Hoover> So vared mapfile\[file] will allow you to edit it if you aren't interested in hitting return.
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19:36:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo__, I suppose you don't have the new Sherlock Holmes series in the US yet.
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19:47:33 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Ah, right, that was it.
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19:47:54 <pikhq> 12:21 < Phantom_Hoover> So vared mapfile\[file] will allow you to edit it if you aren't interested in hitting return.
19:48:34 <pikhq> Nor's ed. Your point?
19:51:14 <pikhq> There's also zselect.
19:51:44 <pikhq> My god I could write an IRC client in zsh.
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19:57:06 <Gregor-P> You could write ... the hooks between Posix and VFS for Microcosm :P
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20:25:33 <pikhq> Gregor-P: Or I could... DO NOTHING
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20:41:11 <zzo38> I have written a gopher client in bash. I have also written a server in bash (but not gopher), the server I wrote is for receiving logs from the drive wiping program.
20:43:48 <Sgeo__> Everyone should write everything in Smalltalk!
20:45:27 <Phantom_Hoover> For some reason, when I try to open LyX's own literate examples it tells me that literate-article.layout either doesn't work or doesn't exist.
20:47:40 <Phantom_Hoover> I have combed Synaptic for a quick fix, and haven't found anything.
20:49:28 <zzo38> You probably could write a HTTP server in bash, though, if you want to
20:49:52 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, assuming you have two-way TCP access, then yes.
20:50:37 <zzo38> In bash I just used netcat for these things, there are things relied on external programs
20:51:51 <zzo38> The server I wrote was for receiving logs, the client was written in Python, and I simply modified it to connect to the server to send the logs. Each client is assigned a port number on the server to connect to, according to 1024 + the rightmost octet of its IP address.
20:52:32 <zzo38> The first line of the server script (other than the #! line) is like this: trap 'jobs -p | xargs kill' exit
20:52:34 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, what if two computers with the same final octet connect at once?
20:53:33 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: That won't happen. It is all a internal network and there aren't that many clients. It is designed so that each client has a unique final octet.
20:54:59 <zzo38> The server script simply spawns netcat in keep listening mode and redirecting output to files "log.1024" and so on, all running in background (with & at end), and then sleeps forever until interrupted.
21:03:26 <Phantom_Hoover> See, if you were using ZSH you could do it with only builtins.
21:04:47 <pikhq> In Zsh you'd just get file descriptors and select on them.
21:05:36 <pikhq> Yes, select. The system call. :)
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21:37:30 <alise> Arson & Mathematics
21:38:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, incidentally, do you know about Multics' memory model?
21:38:13 <alise> --"tell me," he said, "why would I want to blow up the city?"--
21:38:17 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: No.
21:38:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, it has the whole "disc and memory are undistinguished" thing.
21:40:42 <zzo38> I don't know whether the computers at FreeGeek have Zsh
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21:44:04 <zzo38> I have seen a sign "STORE HOURS MON~THU 17:00-25:00" but I think I know what they might mean by that, though.
21:45:42 <zzo38> There isn't 25 hours in a day. But they might mean 1AM next day is when they close. Still, it is a bit strange way to write it
21:46:02 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: hour :: (hour >= 0 && hour < 24) => Integral n
21:46:27 <pikhq> Erm, that was odd.
21:46:35 <pikhq> hour :: (n >= 0 && n < 24) => Integral n
21:46:44 <pikhq> There, that's not absolutely revolting.
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21:47:04 <pikhq> This torrent is mocking me.
21:47:13 <pikhq> 0.1 megabytes left.
21:49:08 <zzo38> Anime convention is tomorrow, and I do not have a mahjong table. TOO BAD
21:49:48 <pikhq> zzo38: Shougi table, though?
21:50:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Would it be possible to implement something approximating to the IO monad in Lazy K??
21:51:26 <zzo38> pikhq: I don't have one of those either, but I do some pieces and the paper board (the paper board is not as good as the proper one)
21:51:39 <alise> pikhq: Which torrent?
21:51:57 <pikhq> alise: The Decemberists discography.
21:52:02 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: No; monads require a type system.
21:52:22 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: The closest you could get would be stream-based IO. ... Which Lazy K already has.
21:52:42 <pikhq> (granted, it's limited to stdin and stdout, *but* it's still stream-based IO.)
21:55:10 <Phantom_Hoover> What I'm getting at is that there's no immediately obvious way of making a function that will just print some text, wherever it's called.
21:55:23 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Nor is there in Haskell.
21:56:13 <pikhq> putStrLn will only print some text if it is somehow executed from main.
21:56:55 <pikhq> Much like a Lazy K function resulting in a string will only print some text if it is somehow part of the return value of the function executed by the Lazy K RTS.
21:57:43 <Phantom_Hoover> What my idea came down to was that you'd have something equivalent to a bind function, and then a function would return both its IO stuff and whatever its normal value was.
21:58:06 <oerjan> you certainly could implement the meat of an IO monad in lazy K
21:58:28 <pikhq> oerjan: Yes, it's called stream-based IO, which Lazy K does...
21:58:36 <oerjan> it's very close to a State monad i think
21:58:46 <pikhq> You'd basically just be adding additional semantics to the input/output stream.
21:58:58 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Oh, you want tuples. ;)
21:59:53 <oerjan> oh hm except a state monad isn't quite right
22:00:05 <oerjan> you want a state for the input but also a writer for the output
22:01:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, a function would get the current input stream, and return the modified input stream and whatever output it had.
22:02:00 <oerjan> and also a monadic return value
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22:04:26 <oerjan> that's just the obvious way of implementing a triple in lambda calculus
22:05:34 <oerjan> lessee return x = \i -> f i "" x
22:06:15 <oerjan> an output string would probably be implemented like that ShowS type
22:06:37 <EgoBot> type ShowS = String -> String -- Defined in GHC.Show
22:06:45 <zzo38> If I send a copy of a book and DVD to someone, which is a reimplementation of a old program they originally wrote but now lost the source-codes, what do you expect?
22:06:53 <oerjan> because that makes it easy to prepend and stuff
22:08:29 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: except you'd want easy composition, which is probably easier if you do it as a prepending function. that's why haskell _has_ the ShowS type after all
22:08:46 <oerjan> it makes output more efficient
22:11:09 <oerjan> x >>= f = \i -> let (i1, o1, v1) = x i; (i2, o2, v2) = f v1 i1 in (i2, o1 . o2, v2)
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22:11:26 <oerjan> replace . by ++ if you insist on using arrays
22:12:30 <oerjan> !haskell shows True " testing"
22:13:31 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, so shows takes a value and returns a function that will take a string and append it?
22:13:38 <oerjan> it prepends a string to the string it is given, usually contstructed from the showsPrec method of the ShowS class
22:14:08 <oerjan> shows = showsPrec 0 iirc
22:14:43 <oerjan> showsPrec takes a precedence value to get operators correctly parenthesized
22:15:39 <Phantom_Hoover> It seems that (cons x) . (cons y) is a function which appends its argument to [x,y]
22:17:09 <oerjan> note that it should be able to be lazy so y isn't evaluated for printing just the first bit
22:18:10 <oerjan> !haskell let s = show s in take 100 s
22:18:14 <EgoBot> "\"\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"
22:18:47 <oerjan> that one only works because the first " is given lazily
22:19:47 <alise> !haskell putStr (let s = show s in take 100 s)
22:19:48 <EgoBot> "\"\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
22:19:55 <alise> Worst unary counter, or worst unary counter?
22:19:58 <oerjan> i recall trying a similar one based on Char rather than String and it fails due to accidental strictness
22:20:03 <alise> Wait, it isn't unary.
22:20:31 <oerjan> !haskell let s = concatMap show s in take 100 s
22:20:53 * oerjan didn't even get an error message?
22:20:56 <alise> is the first lengths
22:21:23 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
22:21:46 <oerjan> !haskell :t let s = concatMap show s in take 100 s
22:21:50 <EgoBot> let s = concatMap show s in take 100 s :: [Char]
22:22:00 <oerjan> !haskell let s = concatMap show s in take 100 s
22:22:26 <alise> OEIS has no sequence for it
22:22:43 <alise> well it has /some/ formula
22:22:45 <oerjan> a disturbing lack of output. anyhow i knew that doesn't work because for some reason the Show instance for Char does _not_ give the initial ' lazily. let's cheat.
22:22:54 <Sgeo__> alise, thoughts on Seaside and Aida?
22:23:11 <oerjan> !haskell let s = '\'' : tail (concatMap show s) in take 100 s
22:23:11 <alise> <alise> !haskell putStr (let s = show s in take 100 s)
22:23:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo__, How many more languages are you going to learn?
22:23:15 <alise> <EgoBot> "\"\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
22:23:17 <EgoBot> "'\\'''\\\\''\\'''\\'''\\'''\\\\''\\\\''\\'''\\'''\\\\''\\'''\\'''\\'''\\\\''\\'''\\'''\\'''\\\\''\\'''\\'''\\'''\\\\''\\\\''\\'''\\''"
22:23:23 <Sgeo__> Phantom_Hoover, those are both Smalltalk
22:23:43 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: that's not helpful
22:23:52 <EgoBot> "\"\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"
22:24:11 <Sgeo__> Phantom_Hoover, also, I love reading about languages
22:24:19 <oerjan> alise: it's just 2^n-1 duh
22:24:52 <alise> 1, 3, 4, 15, 31 does not contain 7
22:24:57 <alise> do you mean the 4?
22:26:08 <EgoBot> That is not a user interpreter!
22:26:37 <oerjan> !haskell let s = '\'' : tail (concatMap show s) in putStrLn $ take 100 s
22:26:38 <EgoBot> '\'''\\''\'''\'''\'''\\''\\''\'''\'''\\''\'''\'''\'''\\''\'''\'''\'''\\''\'''\'''\'''\\''\\''\'''\''
22:26:54 <oerjan> that's the Char variant
22:28:53 * Sgeo__ wonders what FFI is like in VisualWorks
22:29:45 <oerjan> i think that's easier than figuring out another finite length array representation for Lazy K, anyhow
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22:31:12 <oerjan> iirc Lazy K uses 256 for EOF marking, so appending lots of arrays in its _standard_ output format would be highly inefficient
22:31:12 <alise> argh! i can't kill opendns
22:31:19 <alise> brb, trying something
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22:32:45 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i thought that's what i was suggesting?
22:33:03 <oerjan> cons a is what you use for a single character output
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22:36:26 <Phantom_Hoover> OTOH they are legitimate errors, so my previous Scheme must have been very forgiving.
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22:39:31 <AnMaster> no, most people are not back yet
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22:40:20 <alise_> Why did you swap your speed with pikhq's?
22:40:29 <alise_> I liked it when /I/ was the one downloading quickly.
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22:41:19 <AnMaster> alise_, what were you torrenting?
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22:41:29 <alise_> AnMaster: I'm torrenting Star Trek (2009).
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22:41:39 <alise_> AnMaster: In raw Blu-Ray stream format, no less
22:41:45 <AnMaster> alise_, how fun, is that one of the good or bad ones?
22:42:10 <alise_> AnMaster: It's the alternate-universe-reboot type dealie.
22:42:22 <AnMaster> alise_, um, aren't those generally bad?
22:42:22 <alise_> AnMaster: (It's odd numbered, though, just as Nemesis was even-numbered; the widely-accepted solution is to put Galaxy Quest before Nemesis.)
22:42:37 <alise_> AnMaster: Well, a lot of the time, but everyone in here says it's good.
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22:42:52 <alise_> AnMaster: The alternate universe is actually part of the plot, so.
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22:43:16 <alise_> Star Trek Nemesis is a 2002 science fiction film directed by Stuart Baird, written by John Logan (from a story developed by Logan, Brent Spiner, and producer Rick Berman), and with music composed by Jerry Goldsmith. It is the tenth feature film in the Star Trek franchise, and the fourth and final film to star the cast from the television series Star Trek: The Next Generation. It follows the mission of the crew of the USS Enterprise-E as they are forced to
22:43:18 <alise_> deal with a threat to the United Federation of Planets from a Reman clone of Captain Picard named Shinzon who has taken control of the Romulan Star Empire in a coup.
22:43:36 <alise_> I watched First Contact a few days ago; really good film.
22:43:56 <AnMaster> alise_, unsure if I watched Nemesis or the one before that
22:44:16 <alise_> AnMaster: Both are (by very strong popular and fan opinion) terrible.
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22:44:29 <alise_> AnMaster: Sure it wasn't First Contact?
22:44:33 <alise_> That was TNG and good.
22:44:43 <AnMaster> alise_, I don't remember the story even
22:44:52 <alise_> AnMaster: First Contact saw Zefram Cochrane the drunkard.
22:44:55 <AnMaster> alise_, they found a copy of Data iirc?
22:45:08 <AnMaster> alise_, does that sound familar at all?
22:45:38 <AnMaster> alise_, it was of paramount importance to the plot
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22:45:46 <AnMaster> alise_, so should be easy to find
22:46:02 <AnMaster> if only I could remember the plot...
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22:46:15 <alise_> It was Nemesis you saw; I checked.
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22:46:25 <alise_> And if the opinion of anyone who's ever existed is anything to go by, you have terrible taste.
22:46:47 <AnMaster> alise_, I haven't watched any of the good movies, maybe that is why?
22:46:54 <Sgeo__> That sounds like an ep of TNG, not a movie
22:47:04 <Sgeo__> AnMaster, yeah yeah, I know
22:47:30 <AnMaster> Sgeo__, otherwise I would just cp the log file of this irc channel and claim it as a TNG episode
22:48:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, implementing Lazy K in Haskell seems like a very good idea.
22:48:37 <alise_> AnMaster: The good ones are, according to the Galaxy Quest-Amended Even-Odd Star Trek Movie Theory, backed up by fan opinion and IMDB ratings, The Wrath of Khan, The Voyage Home, The Undiscovered Country, First Contact, and Star Trek (2009).
22:48:55 <alise_> AnMaster: I can back up The Undiscovered Country and First Contact, and if this torrent gets off its fat, lazy ass, (2009).
22:49:10 <alise_> Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, 'coz Haskell totally ISN'T known for leaking memory like a sieve.
22:50:13 <alise_> I was simply remarking that Haskell is known to be a memory leaker.
22:50:41 <Sgeo__> I saw the Moriarty eps today
22:51:52 <AnMaster> alise_, was The Voyage Home the one they went back in time in?
22:52:09 <alise_> According to Wikipedia, it seems so.
22:52:09 <AnMaster> and Scotty(?) saying how quaint about a computer
22:52:14 <alise_> They went back in time in First Contact too.
22:52:47 <AnMaster> alise_, which one was the one with whales?
22:52:51 <alise_> The Voyage Home takes place in 2286, it seems.
22:53:06 <AnMaster> alise_, does it include _whales_
22:53:08 <alise_> AnMaster: I haven't seen one with whales.
22:53:24 <alise_> The Voyage Home had WALES.
22:53:28 <Phantom_Hoover> I can only assume that it's a Mandelbug, since I changed nothing.
22:53:30 <alise_> It might have also had Wales.
22:53:31 <AnMaster> alise_, yeah, awesome then, and somewhat commical
22:53:46 <AnMaster> alise_, since they went back to the 1990s or such
22:55:36 <alise_> Incidentally, here is my Twenty-Second "Tuvix": Tuvok and Neelix, in a horrific transporter accident, merge to form a funny, hardworking and caring genius. Everyone is horrified that life is so much better now, but gets used to it; apart from Kes, who is devestated that her awful Neelix is now much more bearable. Janeway decides to kill Tuvix. Tuvix protests. Janeway kills Tuvix anyway, and Neelix and Tuvok return. The end!
22:57:18 <cpressey> Please don't mention those names in my presence.
22:58:11 <alise_> cpressey: Allergic reaction?
22:58:23 <cpressey> Yes, much worse than I expected.
22:58:36 <cpressey> I must really hate that show, or something.
22:58:38 <alise_> cpressey: If you learn to control your emotions, Voyager becomes the highest point of comedy witnessed by any human being.
22:58:42 <cpressey> Not the show, so much as the characters.
22:58:43 <alise_> -- Just like a Vulcan would do!
22:59:02 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, when I try to run Lazier on stuff it says "K[#<procedure:curried>]"
22:59:17 <AnMaster> alise_, watched a few episodes of it
22:59:22 <alise_> Phantom_Hoover: You're printing a procedure without calling it.
22:59:24 <alise_> AnMaster: My condolences.
22:59:35 <AnMaster> alise_, anyway, some were good
22:59:42 <AnMaster> not saying all were in any way
22:59:45 <Phantom_Hoover> alise_, that really shouldn't be happening; it worked fine a while ago.
23:00:36 <alise_> Phantom_Hoover: And now it does not.
23:01:03 <Phantom_Hoover> alise_, and it does if I try with plt-r5rs rather than mzscheme.
23:01:39 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, what is Lazier
23:02:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, Lazy K, since it supports the Iota and Jot notations as well as CC and Unlambda.
23:02:26 <cpressey> alise_: You know, I used to refer to "The X-Files" as "But Sculder".
23:02:57 <cpressey> Because, you know, it was always, "But Mulder, science!", then, "But Scully, evidence!"
23:03:09 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, written in slightly nonstandard Scheme, which seems to be at least part of the problem.
23:03:41 <alise_> Phantom_Hoover: mzscheme is non-standard.
23:04:16 <alise_> Phantom_Hoover: Anyway, you should probably upgrade; PLT Scheme no longer exists, it's Racket now.
23:04:20 <Phantom_Hoover> (It was non-standard to start with; it had unquoted () and ifs without elses.)
23:04:40 <AnMaster> when I saw package name replacement
23:04:41 <alise_> Phantom_Hoover: if without else is, I believe, standard; the return value is unspecific.
23:04:59 <cpressey> alise_: Wtf? I wish they'd stop doing that
23:05:12 <alise_> AnMaster: Because "PLT Scheme" is not very like a Scheme any more, it has diverged quite a lot; and they're sick of people considering it just a non-standard dialect of Scheme, rather than an independent language/platform.
23:05:18 <alise_> cpressey: Synonym of "Scheme".
23:05:31 <alise_> I don't have any problem wit hthe name change; they had good enough reasons.
23:05:51 <alise_> Indeed, I find myself respecting them more; they're creating a language, not butchering Scheme.
23:05:52 <AnMaster> alise_, does it still provide a r5rs implementation?
23:05:58 <cpressey> alise_: Groan. Can I now expect a bunch of 30's-gangster-lingo-inspired names for tools?
23:06:02 <alise_> AnMaster: Yes, along with all its other little languages.
23:06:11 <alise_> cpressey: No, they don't like naming their tools very creatively. :P
23:06:15 <alise_> Their web server is called "web-server".
23:06:21 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, use an up-to-date distro
23:06:31 <alise_> "X doesn't have some new software." "Change your entire operating system to Y."
23:06:35 <cpressey> alise_: Well there was that whole Mz*, Mr*, Dr* cutseyness they were doing...
23:06:47 <Phantom_Hoover> alise_, what Scheme implementation would you recommend, then?
23:06:51 <alise_> cpressey: Oh, for once I'm going to tell you to cheer up. It's not a huge deal :P
23:06:54 <alise_> Phantom_Hoover: mzscheme should be fine.
23:07:00 <AnMaster> <alise_> Their web server is called "web-server". <--- aww, they really need to use 30's-gangster-lingo-inspired names!
23:07:00 <alise_> Just use R5RS mode if you want to write Scheme.
23:07:49 <cpressey> alise_: I'm not that miffed by it, I've just been disappointed by the direction PLT has been going in since I first heard of it...
23:08:14 <alise_> cpressey: Where was it at that you wanted it to move in a different direction from?
23:09:34 -!- derdon has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
23:09:38 <Sgeo__> o.O at the nonexistant PLT Scheme
23:09:56 <Sgeo__> I can never spell that wrod
23:10:11 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:10:18 <cpressey> alise_: It has seemed to get cheesier and less organized as time has passed. I dunno, maybe it's just my perception of it. They had a good thing with DrScheme, then overextended themselves, I think.
23:10:33 <alise_> cpressey: Perhaps, perhaps; such are things.
23:10:41 <AnMaster> hah, I got first to another word which actually exists!
23:13:00 <Sgeo__> My old computer teacher wants my help rewording an advertisement for programmers
23:13:04 <GreaseMonkey> tip of the day: wasd is not useful for navigating a text editor
23:13:09 <Sgeo__> And advice on where to post
23:13:21 <Sgeo__> Why she thinks I'm a manager-sort person, I have no idea
23:13:22 <GreaseMonkey> bear that in mind if you're editing a game's source code
23:13:45 <AnMaster> GreaseMonkey, um, I never found wasd sensible in games either
23:13:46 <Sgeo__> GreaseMonkey, fork vi!
23:14:08 <GreaseMonkey> but then i'd have to come up with terms which start with hjkl!
23:14:11 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster well, if you have the mouse in your right hand, using wasd is more convenient.
23:14:13 <alise_> Sgeo__: You don't have to do work for free.
23:14:15 <Sgeo__> AnMaster, same here until Portal, due to Active Worlds
23:14:29 <GreaseMonkey> "now you jearch for your thing, and if you're not happy you helete it"
23:14:43 <cpressey> "Racket programmers are Racketeers, of course."
23:14:50 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I use the trackpoint on my laptop
23:15:00 <Sgeo__> alise_, rewording something and knowing where to ask for programmers is actually a paying job somewhere?
23:15:04 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, and on desktop I shift mouse regularly to avoid strain on either hand
23:15:11 <GreaseMonkey> so i have to somehow remip some crap for cube (implementing room-over-room here)
23:15:33 <AnMaster> GreaseMonkey, cube? as in the geometrical shape?
23:15:57 <alise_> Sgeo__: No, but that's irrelevant.
23:15:58 <AnMaster> GreaseMonkey, ah wasn't there are CUBE II?
23:16:07 <alise_> Sgeo__: You don't have to do shit like that for free.
23:16:14 <AnMaster> GreaseMonkey, so not using that?
23:16:36 <AnMaster> GreaseMonkey, better graphics iirc?
23:16:39 <Sgeo__> alise_, even if I wanted to help, which I do, I'd be clueless. She also suggested that I actually do work on this project, which I assume wouldn't be non-paying
23:16:40 <GreaseMonkey> the way i'm doing ROR is i'm adding in a way of rendering a middle slice
23:16:52 <AnMaster> GreaseMonkey, there you go then
23:17:12 <AnMaster> didn't like it, due to the fps nature
23:17:30 <Sgeo__> It's some stupid question thing. I vaguely suggested Django due to the builtin admin stuff :/
23:17:37 <AnMaster> GreaseMonkey, wtf is .kkrieger
23:18:18 <AnMaster> GreaseMonkey, many procedural textures?
23:18:21 <alise_> GreaseMonkey: they distribute the engine too
23:18:35 <alise_> AnMaster: it has high-quality graphics, too
23:18:41 <GreaseMonkey> yeah .kkrieger is really procedural or something
23:18:55 <fizzie> .werkkzeug is the name of the tool, right.
23:19:04 <alise_> AnMaster: Screenshot porn: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/54/Kkrieger_screenshot_01.jpg
23:19:05 <fizzie> .theprodukkt is sort of the project.
23:19:18 <fizzie> It's by a demoscene group, somewhat unsurprisingly.
23:19:56 <AnMaster> alise_, their own screenshots look better
23:20:03 <GreaseMonkey> yuss i think i have remipping working or something
23:20:04 <alise_> Because they're the guys who do this kind of stuff on a competition-type schedule basis.
23:20:15 <alise_> AnMaster: who cares, it's 96 KiB, impressive no matter how you slice it
23:20:40 <fizzie> Right; also the stuffing stuff into tiny packages expertise is there.
23:20:40 <alise_> AnMaster: http://seboist64.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/kkrieger2.jpg
23:20:46 <alise_> even more impressive or whatever
23:20:46 <cpressey> does it have a scripting language
23:20:51 <alise_> fizzie: that's what i meant by this-kind-of-stuff
23:21:24 <alise_> no, it's just a procedural thingymabob generation tool (though it has a pseudo-language built in it seems)
23:22:48 <fizzie> I'm sure they have some sort of unreleased more-than-just-textures tool, internally; I mean, the one available from the site is called ".werkkzeug 3 TE", for "Texture Edition".
23:23:10 <fizzie> And .werkkzeug1 does all kinds of demo-things.
23:23:37 <GreaseMonkey> actually it needs some more tweaking but at least it kinda works!
23:24:04 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: New quit message. Entering 2006 in style.).
23:24:55 <fizzie> They also have that exe-packer, kkrunchy: http://www.farbrausch.de/~fg/kkrunchy/
23:26:19 <fizzie> There's trickery involved; there's a x86 disassembler-preprocessor-transmogrifier that does "stuff" to make the end result more compressible with LZ-family compression things.
23:27:32 <Phantom_Hoover> You know, keeping the whole input stream is probably a good idea...
23:28:38 <fizzie> That kkrunchy, and 4klang (a software synthesizer thing designed for 4k intros), were used in great many productions at the recent asm2010 thing; everyone's using the same tools nowadays.
23:30:59 <fizzie> And crinkler, too; it's an exe-packer specifically targeting the lucrative 4k market segment.
23:33:41 <fizzie> Well, if they didn't give it away free-as-in-beer, it'd be a moneymaker, I'm sure.
23:34:35 <fizzie> All this is for Windows, of course; it's the market leader there. (Possibly because they have that "import stuff from DLLs via ordinal"; shared-library ELFs have both horribly huge headers, and even if you trick past those you still need to include the full function name as a string. Those easily add up.)
23:36:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, those ordinals... wouldn't those change in new versions of dlls?
23:36:23 <fizzie> They try not to change existing ones, I think.
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23:36:47 <AnMaster> fizzie, can you import by name too?
23:36:56 <fizzie> You can, if you don't mind the bytes.
23:37:06 <fizzie> Importing by name might even be the default linker behaviour these days.
23:37:31 -!- Zuu has quit (Client Quit).
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23:38:51 <fizzie> I did recently crunch a not-exactly-optimized rotating OpenGL cube (21 imports from Xlib, libGL, libGLU; most with rather long names) into a 1024-byte executable, so I'm sure with enough effort you could get some sort of reasonable Linux 4k intro done. (I think there actually was one at asm2010, though not an especially impressive one. Maybe I should peek at how it was made.)
23:40:07 * Sgeo__ really likes the idea of Newspeak. Maybe if it settles down in 5-10 years, I'll fall in love
23:41:41 <pikhq> Conservapedia's denying relativity again.
23:42:04 <pikhq> Anti-Jesus conspiracy.
23:42:12 <AnMaster> pikhq, also, aren't they doing it all the time anyway
23:42:26 <pikhq> AnMaster: No, for quite some time they had a reasonable article on relativity.
23:42:49 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, that counterexamples page has been there for ages.
23:43:06 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Hmm.
23:43:12 <pikhq> Still. Gah. Idjits.
23:44:12 <AnMaster> pikhq, huh, did they change it after that?
23:44:55 <cpressey> It's not that they deny the theory that's funny, it's that they do it because they associate it with social and/or moral relativism.
23:44:55 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, Schlafly's own brother has called him out on relativity and he hasn't listened.
23:45:25 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, that and the "Jesus showed action at a distance! The disciples had atomic clocks!"
23:45:35 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, who is Schlafly?
23:45:46 <cpressey> Well yes, that's it's own little sub-hilarity
23:45:53 <pikhq> cpressey: Well, yeah. There are actual legitimate claims against relativity. Such as how quantum mechanics doesn't work with it.
23:46:00 <pikhq> I think that's about it, actually.
23:46:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Schlafly also claims that Newtonian mechanics work fine if you "tweak" the inverse square law.
23:47:13 <Phantom_Hoover> He therefore demonstrates a lack of understanding of Newtonian mechanics, as well as relativity.
23:48:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Wow, they tie Barack Obama, relativity and abortion all into the one counterexample.
23:49:10 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:58:49 <Phantom_Hoover> It's more or less "Barack Obama helped write a paper which used relativity to justify abortion."
00:00:52 <AnMaster> anyone know how to pronounce this word? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svirfneblin
00:01:20 <AnMaster> I mean, it says at the page, but doesn't help much
00:02:42 <pikhq> AnMaster: Deep gnomes.
00:03:35 <AnMaster> it is the fn that is the main issue
00:03:44 <pikhq> AnMaster: Two different syllables.
00:04:30 <AnMaster> how could sv be a problem to pronounce?
00:04:45 <pikhq> It's just a rhotic vowel followed by a consonant. :)
00:05:12 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, yeah how do you pronounce it ?
00:05:26 <oerjan> herfnord and hampshire
00:05:51 <Phantom_Hoover> You make an f sound, then move your tongue to make an n sound.
00:06:33 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, I suppose it's a bit more difficult if it's pronounced rhotically, but it's still possible.
00:07:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Use the time saying the "f" to move your tongue from the "r" position to the "n" position.
00:07:45 <Slereah> http://membres.multimania.fr/bewulf/Russell/Maya.jpg
00:08:02 <Slereah> Let's make an esolang out of that
00:08:52 <AnMaster> Gregor-P, I love how it says "in red" and is all black and white
00:09:36 * oerjan storfnyser av AnMasters manglende rfn-uttale
00:09:37 <AnMaster> Gregor-P, yet clearly it is a colour scan
00:09:53 <Gregor-P> AnMaster: I ... have no idea what you're referring to.
00:10:02 <AnMaster> Gregor-P, read the text below that image
00:10:15 <alise_> I like how you're randomly telling Gregor.
00:10:16 <AnMaster> how did I confuse Slereah and Gregor-P
00:10:21 <oerjan> AnMaster: you think i'm being too harsh? :D
00:10:49 <AnMaster> Gregor-P, I guess it was just something I expected you to link and say
00:10:56 <oerjan> (ok so i combined stor- and fnyser on the spot, it's still pronouncable)
00:11:03 <AnMaster> Slereah, okay, I love how it says "in red" and is all black and white'
00:11:15 <Gregor-P> Deewiant: Eh, we've all done worse.
00:11:24 <alise_> Flonk: not talking to you, you were just my unwilling victim :)
00:11:56 <AnMaster> oerjan, yes in Swedish it works
00:12:08 <Gregor-P> alise_: This seems to be an effective way to raise idlers from the dead :P
00:12:18 <AnMaster> oerjan, since "uttale" is not Swedish
00:12:33 <AnMaster> oerjan, and s/av/åt/ for Swedish
00:13:15 <alise_> Mathnerd314! jix! distant_figure! mtve! Boy are you guys gonna hate me!
00:13:15 <AnMaster> Gregor-P, I saw flonk speak earlier today
00:13:51 <oerjan> mind you "fnyser" probably only exists because it sounds funny, anyway
00:13:53 <Zuu> i balem Gregor-P too
00:14:15 <AnMaster> oerjan, I think it might be partly onemat<whatever>
00:14:56 <alise_> LET'S JUST PING EVERYONE LOL
00:15:00 <alise_> Zuu coppro Gregor-L yiyus__ distant_figure mtve SimonRC sshc Deewiant Leonidas Warrigal jix fungot myndzi cal153 Mathnerd314 MizardX Killerkid cpressey jcp Wamanuz3 oerjan cheater99 Phantom_Hoover alise_ CakeProphet sebbu Gregor-P Flonk relet AnMaster Sgeo__ BeholdMyGlory olsner pikhq Slereah lifthrasiir mycroftiv fizzie bsmntbombdood Quadrescence dbc comex rodgort yiyus_ EgoBot HackEgo clog Ilari ineir
00:15:01 <alise_> os Ilari_antrcomp chickenzilla
00:15:01 <fungot> alise_: you are right, and while it's not implemented yet so it'd be less-than-perfect.
00:15:19 <dbc> I noticed I have a metric ton of lovers.
00:15:20 <Gregor-P> alise_: Good thing you pinged HackEgo :P
00:15:28 <alise_> dbc: Metric FUCKton, I'll have you know.
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00:17:31 <oerjan> "he was crushed under a metric fuckton of lovers"
00:17:52 <alise_> our idlers are professionals, AnMaster. we cannot break their steely determination.
00:17:57 <oerjan> yeah it worked better when i did
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00:18:09 <alise_> too many people have me on ignore
00:18:30 <AnMaster> alise_, also MAYBE that means something
00:18:38 <AnMaster> if many people have you ignore
00:18:54 <alise_> Nobody has me on ignore right now.
00:18:55 <dbc> Anyway, I have to go. Will be back sometime or other :)
00:19:01 <alise_> (At least, nobody who talks at all, ever.)
00:19:03 <oerjan> AnMaster: there _was_ a norwegian comedy sketch about that, lemme check youtube
00:19:36 <cpressey> alise_: ... *I* have you on ignore right now!
00:19:46 <cpressey> In fact, I'm putting you ALL on ignore!
00:19:46 <AnMaster> oerjan, I like that Norwegian one about system upgrade from scrolls to book, and calling helpdesk
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00:20:05 <alise_> You're all so annoying. Even that card.freenode.net fellow.
00:20:06 <oerjan> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXa9yT3EcMU
00:20:26 <AnMaster> alise_, "Even that card.freenode.net fellow." <-- how so?
00:21:26 <alise_> AnMaster: They spammed me with some junk about Orson Scott Card when I connected!
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00:23:15 <AnMaster> oerjan, yes, periodic clicks in the sound
00:23:22 <AnMaster> and strange patterns in the image
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00:24:09 <oerjan> it was probably recorded at home by someone during the 70s-80s
00:26:23 <AnMaster> oerjan, why couldn't the Swede win ;P
00:26:42 <oerjan> well THAT musch is obvious
00:26:46 <AnMaster> oerjan, besides they all looked distinctly Norwegian
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00:30:46 <Gregor-P> Oerjan Scott Card. That is all.
00:31:28 <alise_> chickenzilla: Crazy idea. You may be a heathen.
00:33:35 <alise_> Whew, you pong. When was the last time you washed?!
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00:36:57 <AnMaster> alise_, no, not very funny at all
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00:41:56 <Gregor-P> YOU GUYS do you know the SIGNIFICANCE of Thursday?
00:42:21 <Gregor-P> HINT: It starts with "New Futur"!
00:42:24 <alise_> NO T-Rex! Tell me about the significance of Thursday!
00:43:14 <Gregor-P> Dude if I were T-Rex I'd be slashin' it up with Utahraptor RIGHT NOW.
00:43:41 * alise_ tries to remember if Utahraptor is the gay one or not
00:45:17 <alise_> Bronto needs some sweet lovin'
00:47:07 <Gregor-P> Her heart belongs to T-Rex (who stomps on it)
00:47:18 <alise_> Gregor-P: http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=1771 Evidently
00:47:24 <alise_> These relationships are polyamorous
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00:48:52 <alise_> I call Rule 34 on Dinosaur Comics.
00:50:21 <Gregor-P> DINOSAURS PROBABLY DIDN'T EVEN HAVE PENISES YOU GUYS THAT MAKES FOR LAME PORN
00:50:55 <alise_> rule34 images 10001-20000 (download torrent) - TPB
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00:50:56 <alise_> 31 Oct 2009... gary daily dinosaur comics dinosaur comics dromiceiomimus qwantz ..... plz google "rule 34" and it will become apparent to you what it ...
00:51:06 <alise_> Methinks that it exists.
00:51:42 <AnMaster> what is up with dinosaur comics
00:51:59 <alise_> 'S called guest comics
00:52:46 <alise_> Gregor-P: http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/5141335/rule34_images_10_001-20_000 Here, you download this and filter out only the Dinosaur Comics ones. XD
00:53:13 <AnMaster> alise_, what the fuck is that?
00:53:47 <alise_> Gregor-P: No, I searched "dinosaur comics rule 34" and all that came up was this http://rule34-images.paheal.net/_images/dd585ae25ea540c918685636b3ced97b/144209 - Alyx_Vance Dinosaur Half-Life_2 Half-life comic dino eli_vance gmod raptor.jpg (NSFW NSFM NSFany damn thing)
00:54:10 <alise_> AnMaster: I called rule 34 on dinosaur comics, Gregor tried to resist Googling it, I refused to be so petty, googled it, and found a torrent purporting to contain such material.
00:54:36 <AnMaster> not that I'm about to download it
00:54:39 <Gregor-P> alise_: I see no purporting of such.
00:55:08 <alise_> AnMaster: Hey, I have *dignity*!
00:55:15 <alise_> ...But not much! Downloading!
00:55:35 <alise_> DAMMIT, it's all in one big rar
00:55:43 <alise_> And there are ~no peers.
00:55:52 <AnMaster> I fail to combine them in one sentence, and I have problems combining it on one line
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01:00:58 <alise_> Gregor-P: Okay ... searching the keywords for dinosaur comics listed in that torrent I have found the source image.
01:01:00 <alise_> http://rule34-images.paheal.net/_images/b2422e6d9ebbae52053d084befb3c51f/280201 - Daily_Dinosaur_Comics Dinosaur_Comics Dromiceiomimus qwantz t-rex tehwalrus webcomic.JPG
01:01:09 <alise_> I cannot, in good conscience, recommend loading this URL.
01:02:39 * Sgeo__ should have checked out the URL before clicking
01:03:08 <alise_> It is possibly the worst drawn T-Rex penis I have ever seen tonight
01:03:28 <AnMaster> alise_, you seen ones before? ...
01:05:27 <Gregor-P> No such thing (probably) anyway :P
01:05:37 <alise_> Much to Gregor-P's dismay.
01:08:53 * Sgeo__ is tempted to use Cincom Smalltalk for the AW stuff
01:09:25 <Sgeo__> At least they have may have working FFI right now
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01:35:29 <Sgeo__> So, in another channel, I say "tyvm", and that's apparently an "SMSism"
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01:45:19 <Sgeo__> Not if you count Befunge, Brainfuck, Malbolge, Feather as being non-english
01:45:51 <Gregor-L> Some people speak other languages, but English is certainly the primary language.
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01:48:32 <pikhq> JneTOnope: 英語は普通の言語ですが、他の言語も良い。けど、他の言語が分からないかもしらない。
01:48:58 <pikhq> JneTOnope: English is the normal language, but other languages are OK. However, you probably won't be understood in other languages.
01:49:00 <JneTOnope> Ha non moi je voyais plus la langue de Flamel!
01:49:34 <JneTOnope> But no prob im gonna try in english!
01:50:51 <Sgeo__> Ha I saw no more the language of Flamel! according to Google Translate
01:50:56 <Gregor-L> Sgeo__: Good spotting there, captain.
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01:52:17 <JneTOnope> Haha it's an exacte translate. But this is an expression im french.
01:53:13 <augur> what server does the logbot run off of?
01:53:47 <DeannaTroi> I don't see how clog would be able to respond, it's just a bot.
01:55:37 <Warrigal> Parlez-vous français? (I'm reasonably sure I'm not conjugating "parler" correctly. :P)
01:56:56 <pikhq> I speak not your cedelia-having craziness.
01:57:43 <AnMaster> JneTOnope, Ja andra språk kanske inte förstås av andra
01:57:45 <Warrigal> Je ne pas le parle. Sil vous le parlez, je ne pas t'aprende.
01:58:03 <Warrigal> I have a feeling that sometimes the "pas" does not go directly after the "ne". :P
01:58:11 <Warrigal> Any mistakes there, or am I on a roll?
01:58:25 <AnMaster> Warrigal, I think it may be "Je ne parle pas"
01:58:36 <AnMaster> but my French is rusty to say the least
01:59:08 <AnMaster> JneTOnope, I'm much better at Swedish than French
01:59:21 <AnMaster> I about exhausted my French knowledge already
01:59:36 <JneTOnope> I ve some problème with my swedish sorry.
01:59:51 <coppro> I'm still working on the second sentence
01:59:56 <AnMaster> coppro, are you sure about that le there
02:00:22 <coppro> parle is a verb; le is a pronoun referring to the antecedent
02:00:23 <Warrigal> Je ne savoi pas antes que je parle françois! There I'm pretty sure I'm conjugating "savoir" incorrectly.
02:00:41 <coppro> french often does <actor> <subject> <verb>
02:00:51 <AnMaster> no fscking clue about the declination or whatever of "parle"
02:01:05 <JneTOnope> You know thé rules better than me coppro ...
02:01:23 <coppro> Warrigal is right; le translates best as it
02:01:33 <coppro> leaving le out is like saying "I do not speak." vs. "I do not speak it."
02:01:53 <coppro> (except that "I do not speak." would be "Je ne parle pas."
02:02:06 <Warrigal> Or is that "je ne jamais parle pas"?
02:02:20 <coppro> Je n'a jamais parler, if I recall correctly
02:02:21 <Warrigal> "Jamais" is "never", I'm pretty sure.
02:02:49 <AnMaster> at least English only have one tricky verb, and that is "be"
02:02:58 <Warrigal> Where did the "pas" go there? Does "jamais" replace it?
02:03:01 <AnMaster> all the other ones are reasonably straight forward
02:03:02 <pikhq> AnMaster: One? Only one?
02:03:21 <AnMaster> pikhq, you do first/second/third persons and such the same for all verbs
02:03:31 <coppro> Warrigal: oh, I moved to a past tense. Je ne parle jamais would be a more appropriate tense, I think
02:03:42 <pikhq> AnMaster: We have tons of irregular verbs though.
02:03:53 <AnMaster> pikhq, sure, but not in the sense I meant
02:03:56 <Warrigal> The past is simply "a parler"? That's easy.
02:04:05 <AnMaster> pikhq, there is stuff like cut and so on
02:04:17 <AnMaster> pikhq, it is still "he cuts" not "he cuta"
02:04:19 <pikhq> Oh, wait. Germanic speaker -- you're familiar with strong verbs and hence you have fewer problems. :P
02:04:21 <Warrigal> What verb is "a"? "Avoir" comes to mind.
02:04:41 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes that I don't have a problem with. What I have a problem with is stuff like that I mentioned
02:04:54 <Warrigal> I'm mentally pronouncing "jamais" like the Spanish "jamáis" would be pronounced, which is probably totally wrong.
02:05:05 <pikhq> AnMaster: It *is* a problem for most learners of English.
02:05:27 <AnMaster> pikhq, well yes to some degree it is a problem
02:05:29 <pikhq> (mostly because there's so *few* of them around that there doesn't seem to be a pattern)
02:05:55 <AnMaster> pikhq, but way less of a problem than "I am, you are, he/she/it is"
02:06:07 <AnMaster> pikhq, and there is only "be" that behaves quite as badly as that
02:06:45 <coppro> also, "If you were to speak French, I would not understand" is "Si vous parlerez francais, je ne vous comprenerais pas."
02:07:00 <AnMaster> otherwise it is the simple append s (or sometimes es, if plain s doesn't work)
02:07:17 <AnMaster> pikhq, and French has the le/la problem
02:08:33 <pikhq> Warrigal: Yes; they're pretty much all a class of verbs called "strong verbs". They're only considered irregular because English has lost most of its strong verbs, and so they seem to be exceptions to the rule, rather than having rules.
02:08:51 <pikhq> Warrigal: Other Germanic languages retain these to a much greater extent.
02:09:14 <Warrigal> Je n'a jamais estudier français, ignorant quand a leger Wikipedia.
02:09:16 <AnMaster> pikhq, doesn't strong verbs basically just mean irregular?
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02:09:26 <AnMaster> pikhq, I was under that impression in Swedish
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02:09:41 <pikhq> AnMaster: Just more complex conjugation rules.
02:09:46 <Warrigal> pikhq: is there a way to guess whether a word is strong beyond simply looking at its past forms?
02:09:55 <coppro> Warrigal: jamais is like "ZHAM-eh", where ZH is same consonant sound as in Asia, and eh is similar to (but sharper than) the first vowel in lever
02:10:03 <pikhq> Warrigal: Past forms? Very much yes.
02:10:36 <pikhq> Warrigal: Does the word become past via a vowel change? If so, it's strong.
02:11:25 <pikhq> Warrigal: Oh, *beyond*.
02:11:26 <AnMaster> pikhq, I'm quite certain "be" is more than just strong, it seems completely irregular
02:11:39 <pikhq> AnMaster: "be" is completely and utterly irregular.
02:12:16 <Warrigal> Do natural languages ever undergo a phase of having no irregularities?
02:12:42 <AnMaster> Warrigal, I doubt it, it is going to be left in stuff like be and other commonly used words
02:12:56 <AnMaster> because people can remember it
02:13:08 <Warrigal> I mean, when a language first emerges from the chaos, does it have a phase before irregularities ever develop?
02:13:13 <AnMaster> you wouldn't remember a pattern like "be" if it meant "scratch your head"
02:13:24 <AnMaster> because it wouldn't be used often enough
02:13:34 <Warrigal> "to wonder if one should run around aimlessly a bit"
02:13:58 <AnMaster> Warrigal, I doubt anyone today knows
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02:15:02 <Warrigal> Languages do emerge from the chaos every so often.
02:15:09 <Warrigal> I think the most recent one was Nigaraguan Sign Language.
02:16:20 <AnMaster> Warrigal, constructed languages is where you should look for all regular
02:16:54 <Warrigal> Though, strangely, it has a single word for "my name is" that is not used for sentences like "his name is" or "my dog is".
02:17:16 <AnMaster> <Warrigal> Though, strangely, it has a single word for "my name is" that is not used for sentences like "his name is" or "my dog is". <-- what the fuck?
02:17:45 <Warrigal> DeannaTroi: yeah, before "uorygl".
02:17:59 <JneTOnope> Che cazzo dite?!! Parlate italiano minchia!!
02:18:30 <Warrigal> Lo siento, mi italiano es peor que mi francés.
02:18:47 <Warrigal> Mi esperanto es aún peor que mi italiano.
02:18:50 <AnMaster> Nä nu får det vara nog me alla dessa sörlänningars språk, lite gammal hederlig Svenska eller Norska nu!
02:19:38 <Warrigal> Mi sueco es aún peor que mi esperanto.
02:19:40 <DeannaTroi> "lo" used to have a very specific meaning in Lojban. Now, it means whatever you want it to mean
02:19:47 <JneTOnope> E parlo spagnolo comme una vacca tedesca..
02:19:57 <AnMaster> <DeannaTroi> "lo" used to have a very specific meaning in Lojban. Now, it means whatever you want it to mean <-- huh?
02:20:29 <Warrigal> AnMaster: "lo gerku" used to mean "a/the dog". Now it means "that which is related to dogs somehow, or which I felt like referring to using the word 'dog' for some reason".
02:20:57 <AnMaster> Warrigal, huh, can a language like that develop
02:21:24 <DeannaTroi> Lojban is a constructed language </DeannaTroi>
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02:21:34 <Warrigal> Eh, it's like every "the" has scare quotes after it.
02:21:42 <Warrigal> "lo gerku" now means "the 'dog'".
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02:21:56 <Warrigal> Zuu: your cloak is ineffective.
02:22:00 <Sgeo> ma mo ma ma ma ma
02:22:12 <AnMaster> * Zuu (zuu@0x55529f1b.adsl.cybercity.dk) has joined #esoteric
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02:22:50 * Sgeo puts AnMaster to sleep
02:23:38 <Warrigal> Sgeo, I have to wonder if you found #jbopre too scary for your taste. >.>
02:23:57 <Sgeo> Warrigal, I just forgot about its existence, is all
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02:29:14 <Warrigal> So, I find that for my codenomic, I'm looking for a scripting language whose entire state is easily made persistent. Does anyone have any recommendations?
02:30:13 <Warrigal> JavaScript doesn't really seem to have that, you see.
02:30:43 <coppro> dump variables and eval
02:31:02 <Warrigal> Yeah, the "dump variables" part is the hard-sounding part.
02:32:18 <Sgeo> Seriously, except for GNU Smalltalk, that's practically what Smalltalk _is_
02:32:37 <Sgeo> Except maybe for the scripting language part
02:32:48 <Warrigal> If it's dynamic and has an API, it's a scripting language.
02:32:54 <pikhq> In all honestly, Smalltalk.
02:32:58 <oerjan> Warrigal: actually i think the past is "a parlé", not "a parler"
02:33:01 <Warrigal> Embarrassingly, I didn't know Python had an API until now.
02:33:33 <Warrigal> Does Smalltalk also have security, like callbacks when one person's code tries to read someone else's data?
02:34:03 <Sgeo> Ah, um... you could probably write code that does that
02:34:21 <pikhq> Depends, but likely.
02:34:52 * Sgeo wonders what weird thisContext-related magic would be required to accomplish the security though
02:35:37 <Sgeo> I'm certain it's theoretically possible, though. It might be easy, might not be
02:36:11 <Sgeo> Of course, we could all just learn Newspeak, but IMO it's too... new
02:37:01 <Warrigal> http://www.gnu.org/software/smalltalk/manual/html_node/Security.html#Security
02:37:15 <Warrigal> Conclusion: GNU Smalltalk is inherently, inalienably insecure. :P
02:37:17 <Sgeo> Don't use GNU Smalltalk
02:37:31 <Sgeo> Not for that reason, though. It's not image-based
02:37:44 <Sgeo> And has extra syntax stuff
02:38:04 <Sgeo> Um, if Magma works on GNU Smalltalk, I guess it would be usable
02:38:28 <pikhq> GNU Smalltalk is weird, and it smells funny.
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02:40:07 <Warrigal> Sgeo: so, what implementation would you recommend?
02:40:40 <Sgeo> Unless there's some implementation that I don't know about that has object-capability-based security, Pharo
02:40:52 <Sgeo> It's nice and open-sourced under the MIT license
02:42:40 <Warrigal> I'm tempted to implement JavaScript myself. :P
02:42:51 <Warrigal> That can be, like, a neat little side project or something.
02:45:13 * Sgeo once again pushes towards Smalltalk
02:45:21 <Sgeo> I'm a bit obsessed
02:46:18 <Warrigal> Familiarity with JavaScript made me gravitate toward it!
02:55:11 <Sgeo> Hmm, RandalSchwartz suggests that locking things down might be very difficult
02:55:20 <Sgeo> <RandalSchwartz> as an exercise, someone put up a Seaside image that in theory had a "safe" smalltalk execution window. And after six attempts to lock it down, based on friendly feedback from squeak-dev, it was taken down and declared a failure.
02:56:44 <Sgeo> Well, do you actually need users to be able to try code on the image?
02:57:02 <Warrigal> That is pretty much *the* feature that I need.
02:57:16 <Warrigal> My codenomic doesn't need to have any other features. :P
02:59:35 <Sgeo> Warrigal, get in #squeak
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04:34:11 <Sgeo> Warrigal, so Smalltalk prettyprettyplease?
04:34:35 <coppro> Sgeo: Write Smalltalk -> llvm
04:35:12 <Warrigal> I'm asking myself to go with JavaScript about the same way as you're asking me to go with Smalltalk.
04:37:50 <Sgeo> Going to take my sleepysleepynightnight pills now
04:38:47 <Sgeo> Benadryl + Melatonin
04:38:58 <Sgeo> Dad suggested it. I'm assuming it's ok
04:39:30 <Warrigal> I would guess that melatonin doesn't really interact with anything. When in doubt, ask a pharmacist.
04:40:10 <Sgeo> My dad's a doctor, so
04:41:22 <Gregor> http://codu.org/tmp/GRegor-op13-mov2-wipp3-beginning.pdf Have some sheet music y'all!
04:46:14 <Sgeo> You could always go Lua
04:46:20 <Sgeo> Has great sandboxing capabilities
04:46:58 <Sgeo> Although I don't know how easy it would be to protect interactions with others code
04:54:08 * Sgeo begins imagining how exactly he'd sandbox Smalltalk stuff
04:54:28 <Sgeo> Have a root class and its metaclass have an inaccessible class
04:54:37 <Sgeo> Scan for and forbid primitives
04:55:15 <Sgeo> Intercept messages, make sure that the only thing that can access instance variables is itself
04:57:30 <Sgeo> Disconnecting soon
04:57:47 <Warrigal> It sounds a lot easier with SpiderMonkey.
04:58:38 <Sgeo> Can you write the protections in Javascript?
04:58:40 <Warrigal> Well, you don't have to examine the code; you can just have a callback.
04:59:12 <Sgeo> I'm.. sure that's somehow doable in Smalltalk
04:59:28 <Sgeo> Instance variables should be the easiest to protect thing
05:00:58 <Sgeo> Yep, just intercept instVarAt:
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05:02:47 <SgeoN1> I should put the phone down and sleep
05:03:08 <SgeoN1> Ill do that right now, in fact
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05:11:14 <oerjan> xkcd seems to be going for the wtf lately
05:16:15 <Warrigal> Since over fifteen minutes ago, the nick lengths of the people who speak have steadily been increasing in increments of two.
05:16:20 <Warrigal> I wonder how long this pattern will continue.
05:16:51 <Warrigal> Now it's just sort of oscillating. :P
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06:31:05 <Gregor> I need to reorganize my music page ... eventually for every piece I'll have OGG, MP3, FLAC, DPR, DPR-pedal, PDF, RG and Ly files. That's a lot of files! Hard to make them all accessible and yet not just be a confusing mess.
06:58:01 <Gregor> People say that quite often in fact.
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10:34:09 <Flonk> good morning everyone.
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12:59:15 <Sgeo> You weren't using Smalltalk?
13:00:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Although I'm really compiling to Lazy K from the lambda calculus.
13:01:13 <Sgeo> Esolangs are exempted from the "It needs to be Smalltalk" rule that I unilaterally claim is in place
13:01:18 <Phantom_Hoover> The problem was that I was appending the arrays incorrectly.
13:06:23 <Phantom_Hoover> I suppose it could be because it's trying to evaluate the input before it does any output...
13:07:34 <AnMaster> Sgeo, no, it needs to be haskell
13:08:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Can you translate the SKI calculus straight into Haskell?
13:10:39 <fizzie> AnMaster: Remember the discussion the other day about Linux/ELF wasting space for linking functions by name always? I recently saw a rather crafty trick to work around that; description follows, but will take me a while to write.
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13:13:04 <Phantom_Hoover> (bind (return str) putstr) works as expected, so I suppose there's hope.
13:14:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Or maybe not, since that could imply that it's a problem with the base language, not my code.
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13:16:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Now (bind (putstr str) return) works properly as well, so now I just need to try composing IO actions.
13:16:48 <fizzie> See, there's this "DT_DEBUG" tag you can put to an ELF file's dynamic section, and if it is there, the dynamic linker will put the (runtime) address of a r_debug struct in there.
13:17:02 <fizzie> One of the components of r_debug is a linked-list chain of r_map structures, one for each loaded library object. In the r_map, there's (among other stuff) the base address where the library was loaded (this time), and a pointer to the library's dynamic section.
13:17:18 <fizzie> So, the trick is to put only the libs you want as "DT_NEEDED" values into your dynamic section, but to include no symbol table or symbol relocs at all.
13:17:33 <fizzie> Instead, there's a table of hash values (say 4-byte ones) of all the symbols you want to look up. Then at the entry point there's a bit of code that goes through the library chain, the symbol table of each library, hashes thesymbol names there, and compares against your table.
13:17:57 <fizzie> If the hashes match, it adds the library base from r_map to the symbol value, and replaces it in the table.
13:18:12 <fizzie> Then you can use those values as function pointers to call the functions.
13:18:37 <fizzie> Of course it assumes there won't be any hash conflicts, but there "probably" won't be, at least unless you link to a whole lot of libs.
13:20:26 <fizzie> The entry point code takes about a hundred bytes; what you save depends on things like how much better the names would compress than the hashes (probably somewhat), how many symbols you need, and so on.
13:22:10 <fizzie> I disassembled this stuff out of the Linux 4k asm2010 entry -- http://sprunge.us/KVeb -- but it turns out it's using someone else's code, that's borrowed from yet another someone else, and those are freely available somewhere. Still, I don't mind the exercise.
13:22:30 <fizzie> (That linker bit is also a bit suboptimal; mine is few bytes smaller.)
13:23:25 <fizzie> And of course the whole DT_DEBUG only works with glibc's dynamic linker. The ELF spec says of the tag: "DT_DEBUG: This member is used for debugging. Its contents are not specified for the ABI; programs that access this entry are not ABI-conforming."
13:24:06 <fizzie> (It's officially used by gdb to grok the dynamic linking environment better.)
13:24:28 <fizzie> Phew, that was quite a monologue.
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13:29:02 <fizzie> Apparently there's a pile of Linux 1k intros, all using this thing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKX1wKUIzyc and also Th0WBoevI9Y .. viqkXLxaVxo .. eD3JMvCY6hE
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13:29:11 <fizzie> They're all pretty one-effect-only, but, well, 1k.
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13:32:14 <fizzie> Also no soundtrack, which is a shame, but perhaps also understandable.
13:33:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, /dev/dsp should be more than enough for these purposes
13:33:40 <fizzie> You still need code to actually make the sort of sounds people would like to listen to.
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13:34:10 <fizzie> Windows 1k's are again more impressive-looking: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMaNxyHhH6A
13:48:23 * Sgeo impatiently waits for new Futurama to be posted
13:52:44 <Sgeo> In the meantime, I'll try watching some SGU
13:54:08 <alise> 18:31:02 <Warrigal> Yeah, the "dump variables" part is the hard-sounding part.
13:54:12 <alise> you can iterate through objects
13:54:54 * Sgeo would rather Smalltalk
13:55:09 <alise> yes, but you're in your obsession phase and thus are best ignored for such opinions
13:55:18 <alise> (I did some work on a SmallNomic at one point...)
13:55:47 <Sgeo> Has my obsession for a language ever been as strong as now?
13:56:16 <alise> No, but that's just because you're being a neophile; Smalltalk is very different.
13:56:21 <alise> It has many flaws.
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13:57:58 <Sgeo> Not compiled, might be a bit slow? Ok, what are some actual flaws?
13:57:59 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, explain what?
13:58:10 <Sgeo> Oh, and no object-capabilities
13:58:19 <Sgeo> Which is why I'm looking forward to Newspeak someday
13:58:19 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I decided to try a new nick, got tried of my old one
13:58:29 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, it isn't like that is unknown to happen
13:58:55 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, .... look in scrollback, some 10 lines up
13:59:01 <Vorpal> and see what I changed from
13:59:10 <Vorpal> then stop acting stupid
14:00:02 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm none, I meant that it wasn't unknown for it to happen in general
14:00:30 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, at one point yes
14:00:37 <alise> ehird → tusho → ehird → alise
14:00:41 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: it was fairly arbitrary
14:01:03 <alise> I seem to have stuck with alise, though; the confusion it occasionally causes is worth it.
14:01:31 <Vorpal> hm that fits with alise
14:01:36 <Vorpal> unintentional actually
14:01:52 <Vorpal> should be alice for that to work best though
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14:02:30 <Vorpal> ah mad hatter is registered
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14:04:30 <Jabberwock> I have jaws that bite, and claws that catch!
14:04:41 -!- Bandersnatch has changed nick to JubJub_bird.
14:04:57 -!- Jabberwock has changed nick to alise.
14:05:10 <alise> Vorpal: Too late, I'm alise now.
14:05:15 -!- JubJub_bird has changed nick to Tum-tum.
14:05:16 <Vorpal> alise, indeed I saw that
14:05:24 -!- Tum-tum has changed nick to Tum-tum_tree.
14:05:32 <Sgeo> alise, what are Smalltalk's flaws?
14:05:34 <alise> You know, I'm not alise_human.
14:05:40 <alise> You can just say Tum-tum.
14:05:43 <alise> Sgeo: I'll explain later.
14:05:48 -!- Tum-tum_tree has changed nick to Snark.
14:06:13 <alise> Hey, I just realised.
14:06:16 <alise> I'm Alise in Wonderland.
14:06:22 -!- Snark has changed nick to Boojum.
14:06:32 <Vorpal> alise, I said that above
14:06:37 * Sgeo decides that alise is slow
14:06:41 <alise> Bellman is used :(
14:06:57 <Boojum> Someone switch to "Baker", if possible.
14:06:59 <Vorpal> Sgeo, and yes, I agree with you
14:07:11 <Vorpal> you think anyone is that insane :P
14:07:35 -!- Vorpal has changed nick to Vorpal_.
14:07:36 -!- alise has changed nick to Baker.
14:07:39 -!- Vorpal_ has changed nick to Vorpal.
14:07:51 <Vorpal> there, since I'm likely switching to this as my main nick
14:07:54 -!- Baker has left (?).
14:08:06 <Boojum> That should have been soft and sudden.
14:08:08 -!- alise has joined.
14:08:15 <Vorpal> <Boojum> That should have been soft and sudden.
14:08:18 -!- Boojum has changed nick to Phantom_Hatter.
14:08:34 <alise> did my part message come through?
14:08:37 <alise> * You have left channel #esoteric ("for the Snark WAS a Boojum, you see")
14:09:00 <Sgeo> The SGU pilot seems rather... different. High-quality visually, or something
14:09:15 <alise> Sgeo: Well, if you're watching it in HD, that would explain it.
14:09:26 <alise> It is very high-budget.
14:12:05 <Vorpal> Sgeo, what is SGU here?
14:12:16 <Sgeo> Stargate Universe
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14:35:55 <Sgeo> In 5 years or so, we should make a Newspeak nomic!
14:36:19 <Sgeo> I'm more enamored with the idea of Newspeak than I am Smalltalk, but it's nowhere near ready for use with anything right now IMO
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14:40:47 <Vorpal> Sgeo, you make less sense than zzo atm
14:40:56 <Vorpal> we can't be having with that
14:41:14 <Sgeo> Nothing I said should have been unintelligable
14:41:20 <Sgeo> To someone with the power of Google
14:42:01 <Sgeo> Actually, Newspeak's kind of hard to Google for. Here's a hint: It's a programming language. Nother hint: Related to smalltalk. Full explanation: It's object-capability based
14:42:27 <Vorpal> Sgeo, I knew only about the 1984 sense of that word
14:44:09 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
14:44:18 <Sgeo_> Well, I love it when my Internet connection disconnects for no apparent reason. Don't you?
14:46:31 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
14:52:31 <Sgeo_> I assume the show after SGU will have 10-chevron addresses?
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15:13:47 <alise> Afternoon, cpressey.
15:14:03 <Sgeo_> alise, why not? That's been the pattern, hasn't it? from 7 (normal) to 8 to 9
15:14:17 <Sgeo_> Maybe the 10th chevron leads to parallel universes
15:14:29 <alise> Sgeo_: Because "Air, Part 1" states there is only one 9-chevron address.
15:14:42 <alise> "THE" nine-chevron address found in the Ancient database,
15:15:18 <Sgeo_> Going to watch from the top
15:15:22 <alise> and the fact that when they fix their 9-chevron dialing in Air, Part 1 it still leads to the same place where the "intended" dialing would go ... or something
15:15:29 <alise> Sgeo_: have you watched Air, Part 1 yet?
15:15:32 <alise> if not IGNORE PREVIOUS MESSAGE
15:15:38 <alise> (not a huge spoiler, but eh)
15:15:49 <Sgeo_> I'm looking for a different source right now
15:15:57 <Sgeo_> Since YouTube took down one of the parts apparently
15:16:00 <alise> Sgeo_: I know a torrent of an HD version of episodes 1-10...
15:17:32 <alise> Does your father say torrents are bad, too? x_x
15:18:48 <Sgeo_> I say I don't like torrents. Too slow, and too difficult to get one ep at a time
15:19:06 <alise> Because you have a shitty, shitty ISP that blocks torrent traffic.
15:19:28 <alise> Popular torrents regularly download at 800 KiB/s for me, and I don't have a very good connection.
15:19:40 <alise> Sgeo_: Difficult to get one ep? Excuse me, you just only check the box for that one episode.
15:19:53 <alise> Open a .torrent in Transmission, it lists all the files, click the outermost folder to decheck everything, check the one episode.
15:20:16 <Sgeo_> And then how long does it take to get that one ep?
15:20:33 <alise> <alise> Hahaha, too slow.
15:20:35 <alise> <alise> Because you have a shitty, shitty ISP that blocks torrent traffic.
15:20:35 <alise> <alise> Popular torrents regularly download at 800 KiB/s for me, and I don't have a very good connection.
15:21:35 <alise> The HD SGU rip is around 100 KiB/s for me, but that's because my upload isn't very good, making other clients dislike me, and because I insisted on getting the Blu-Ray rip rather than a saner, better-seeded HDTV rip.
15:22:22 <alise> Sgeo_: If your connection can handle it, very-well-seeded torrents surpass any other kind of download except perhaps crazy metalink madness; you can download your favourite version of Ubuntu at something like 40 MiB/s.
15:23:07 <Sgeo_> There's also the issue of disk space...
15:23:20 <alise> How much of it do you have?
15:26:45 <Sgeo_> 2.36GB. A bit more than I thought
15:27:33 <alise> I didn't realise Active Worlds took up so much space.
15:27:38 <alise> (Either that or you own the World's Smallest Hard Disk.)
15:28:37 <Sgeo_> I'm using about 6GB to store AW cache files. I could delete them, but I'm a cache pack rat
15:29:38 <alise> Jesus christ, you are insane.
15:30:11 * Sgeo_ isn't Jesus Christ.
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15:40:13 <fizzie> Sgeo_: I do note that you did not object to the "insane" bit.
15:40:57 <alise> pikhq: Heh, ClickToFlash uses YouTube's for-iPhone H.264 files to play without Flash. Sounds like an interesting route; FLV is pretty shit.
15:43:04 <alise> Oh, it's just ?fmt=18.
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15:48:34 <Sgeo_> Off to watch SGU pilot
15:49:04 <alise> Sgeo_: Parts 1 & 2?
15:49:09 <alise> Part 1 isn't the pilot, just the cut syndication version.
15:52:51 <alise> It seems that Google Public DNS' FAQ never actually says "No, we won't log your requests."
15:53:39 <alise> What information does Google log when I use the Google Public DNS service?
15:53:40 <alise> Google Public DNS complies with Google's main privacy policy, which you can view at our Privacy Center. With Google Public DNS, we collect IP address (only temporarily) and ISP and location information (in permanent logs) for the purpose of making our service faster, better and more secure. Specifically, we use this data to conduct debugging, to analyze abuse phenomena and to improve our prefetching feature. After 24 hours, we erase any IP information. For
15:53:40 <alise> more information, read the Google Public DNS privacy page.
15:54:18 <cpressey> "Location information" in this case means, of course, which room of your house you were in when you made the request
15:54:43 <alise> And also the location of your body, e.g. whether or not you were wearing clothes.
15:56:26 <alise> http://i.imgur.com/zaOpT.png
15:58:35 <alise> OpenDNS resolves www.google.com as google.navigation.opendns.com.
15:58:57 <alise> wrt a problem related to it: "We're going to fix this ASAP. This happens if you have shortcuts enabled in your account. A temporary fix is to turn off shortcuts. A permanent fix will be put in place tomorrow morning."
15:59:14 <alise> So you can disable it, but... between that and the shitty ad-search you get on an unresolved domain by default:
15:59:15 <alise> Fuck it, I'll take Google.
15:59:19 <alise> Or whatever namebench suggests.
16:01:13 <alise> Wow, a Tk interface that /doesn't/ make me want to puke.
16:01:15 <alise> Looks like it uses Tile.
16:02:31 <alise> DUN QUERY THE LOT YO
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16:17:45 <Zuu> Warrigal, my cloak was very effective with regards to the reason i got it.
16:18:10 <alise> "...Sexy reasons."
16:18:13 <Zuu> It even led to fixing of the ircd
16:19:30 <Zuu> i got the cloak for the reason of testing if peoples hostmasks could change silently, which i found that they could
16:19:53 <Zuu> later the ircd guis decided to fix that 'problem'
16:21:18 <Zuu> i really dont care if people have my IP, in fact i might get more visitors on my website if i cared to remove my cloak
16:22:13 <Gregor> Now they do a fake reconnect thing.
16:22:40 <Zuu> Gregor, i couldnt come up with a better solution, other than altering the protocol
16:22:42 <alise> It's Freenode, of course they're crazy.
16:22:59 <alise> Zuu: How about as a nick change?
16:23:12 <alise> * Zuu!old@host is now known as Zuu!new/host
16:23:23 <Zuu> that wouldnt suggest a change of the actual host part of the hostmask
16:23:45 <Zuu> anyone on the network
16:24:05 <alise> It does to humans.
16:24:50 <Zuu> we both know that not only humans are connected to this network :)
16:24:51 -!- cheater109 has joined.
16:25:17 <alise> Zuu: I also know not of a single bot that cares to know when someone's hostname changes, rather than just looking it up when required.
16:25:35 <Zuu> my bot would care
16:25:38 <oerjan> bots may be fine, but what about all the _clients_?
16:25:44 <Zuu> now you know of at least one, hence i tested it ;)
16:25:59 <oerjan> they might be trying to understand nicks too, and not expect !'s in them
16:26:21 <oerjan> (or their relevant commands)
16:27:01 <alise> fair enough, I just don't think it's a Big Deal
16:27:05 <alise> I also think cloaks are stupid.
16:27:27 <alise> I'd just make the ircd not display any IPs, what's the point of revealing them?
16:27:48 <oerjan> making it possible to ban people?
16:28:07 <alise> oerjan: Cloaks stop that anyway; banning with cloaks ~= banning an account
16:28:28 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
16:29:07 -!- Deewiant has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
16:29:36 <oerjan> well. i expect ordinary bans are not the main defense against people "clever" enough to manipulate their irc identity, anyway.
16:29:49 <oerjan> (not that i actually _know_)
16:30:14 <alise> manipulate? cloaks are officially supported :-P
16:30:15 <pikhq> It's more that bans send a message: "Go the fuck away. Seriously."
16:30:17 <alise> you just ask for one
16:30:27 <alise> yeah, circumventing bans is really awfully easy
16:30:30 <oerjan> alise: manipulate by changing things after being banned, duh
16:30:50 <alise> oerjan: you mean... not identifying to your account (if using cloaks)?
16:30:53 <cpressey> the sad thing is when even that message is unreceived
16:31:12 <oerjan> or getting a new account
16:31:23 -!- Deewiant has joined.
16:32:03 <oerjan> those are the obvious ways to me, anyway
16:39:42 <cpressey> I played ZAngband again last night. After not playing it for ... well, years.
16:40:22 <cpressey> That's all. I don't have anything interesting to say about it.
16:40:35 <alise> Is it any good? :P
16:41:25 <cpressey> It's a bit annoying on a laptop keyboard where you have to Fn your way to a pseudo-numeric-keypad.
16:42:44 <cpressey> I guess, as far as Moriaoids go, it's my favourite. Even though I'm rather meh about Zelanzy proper.
16:47:33 <alise> Hey hey, this is a goood idea
16:48:16 <cpressey> Lazy zen, where the sound of one hand clapping is merely regarded as a partial evaluation of the act of clapping
16:48:42 <alise> Gah, where's that nomic ...
16:51:24 <alise> You know: That one nomic.
16:51:49 <oerjan> one nomic to bind them all?
16:52:29 <Sgeo_> alise, in 5 years, want to help with NewspeakNomic?
16:53:23 <alise> Sgeo_: I believe your opinion on Newspeak is terribly wrong, but also that Newspeak Nomic is not a very interesting idea.
16:53:51 <Sgeo_> How am I terribly wrong about Newspeak?
16:54:38 <alise> I believe your opinion that "Newspeak isn't ready for use for anything" is wrong; things are not not-ready-for-use merely because they are young, and Newsqueak rests on the shoulders of giants -- i.e. Squeak -- meaning it inherits all the useful things from Squeak.
16:54:43 <alise> Therefore there is no particular reason Newsqueak is not ready for use.
16:54:59 <alise> Newspeak the language itself is relatively solid and I see no reason not to consider it mature.
16:55:19 <alise> Indeed, Newsqueak is probably not very useful; but that is only because Squeak itself is not very useful, with its detached-world philosophy.
16:55:24 -!- tombom_ has joined.
16:56:01 <Sgeo_> Isn't the syntax still undergoing changes?
16:56:06 <alise> I also believe that real-world-usefulness of a language is /completely and utterly irrelevant/ for nomic. It's a bloody game.
16:56:37 <alise> Sgeo_: I don't know; I don't think it's undergoing /significant/ syntactic revision, if it is undergoing any at all; and besides, Newsqueak probably won't catch up to the changes for a while if it's changing a lot.
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17:04:12 <alise> cpressey: Reference to the GOO language, I hope!
17:04:34 <cpressey> The impression I got is that the creators of Newspeak want it to become smaller over time. If they're also ignoring the idea of a release cycle and just saying "the syntax is subject to change", they're dead in the water w.r.t. "real world usefulness".
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17:05:01 <alise> cpressey: I think they're more trying out syntax theoretically, rather than actually fucking with the prototype language.
17:05:03 <cpressey> alise: It wasn't, but if there is such a language, I change my vote!
17:08:06 <alise> cpressey: http://googoogaga.org/
17:08:30 <alise> cpressey: It's a "theoretical-style OOP" (i.e. not Javaesque) Lisp-syntaxed typed thingy.
17:08:39 <alise> Sorta (pretty) dormant, but there you go.
17:09:20 -!- cheater209 has joined.
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17:12:51 <alise> cpressey: Wha? GOO is great.
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17:14:25 <cpressey> The article on "Why" is completely non-compelling.
17:17:39 <alise> Whatever; it's interesting and that's that.
17:18:44 <alise> cpressey: It's not like it has a shitty object system; typed multimethods.
17:19:39 <alise> cpressey: It also uses Smalltalk-style save images, avoiding e.g. file IO.
17:20:38 <cpressey> I have failed to find an article so far on that site that actually informs me of "what the deal is with the language", so to speak.
17:21:16 <alise> Bad at justifying themselves != bad
17:21:33 <alise> http://people.csail.mit.edu/jrb/goo/goo-intro.pdf gets close, I guess.
17:23:13 <cpressey> Predicate types -- I assume this means not statically checked
17:23:33 <cpressey> (Based on, if they were statically checked, they would say "dependent types")
17:27:11 -!- Flonk_ has joined.
17:27:32 <cpressey> No, apparently, "Internal correctness checks (e.g., typechecking) to avoid errors"
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17:29:07 -!- Flonk_ has changed nick to Flonk.
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17:31:53 <Gregor-W> Freenode webchat introduced a capcha. Since when has re-capcha presented only non-words?
17:32:40 <alise> I sure hope you accept Unicode, bitch.
17:32:59 <alise> Apparently indeed.
17:33:12 <alise> Gregor: What do you mean, non-words?
17:33:22 <alise> Ah, the fact that the words don't make any sense?
17:33:30 <alise> I got "said" just now.
17:33:41 <Gregor-W> The fact that they're not English words.
17:34:12 <alise> Two guesses: (a) Foreign (they appear to be in a different style to some English words, suggesting a foreign-language book); (b) litmus tests to see how accurate the enterer is at transcribing the words
17:34:14 <Gregor-W> "varrify" "joicang" "woodles" <-- three words I just snagged
17:34:24 <alise> (e.g. if you transcribed "fijrg verily" as "penis penis", it'd reject it)
17:34:25 <Gregor-W> "varrify" is obviously just a tpyo
17:34:48 <Gregor-W> Well recaptcha is the clever one that includes one word they know and one word they're trying to farm out the OCR on.
17:34:48 <alise> Gregor-W: Time for Jabberwocky 2: Electric Boogaloo.
17:35:11 <Gregor-W> It makes me feel dirty and used and yet I respect it.
17:35:26 <alise> Gregor-W: They only know it from other people, though.
17:36:03 <Gregor-W> (UNRELATED) It amuses me that LilyPond's motto is "Music notation for everyone"
17:36:11 <Gregor-W> When really it's "Music notation for people who can figure out TeX"
17:36:55 <Sgeo_> Gregor-W, I think I like this show
17:37:09 <alise> The joicang woodles varrified / as finett aspions, excurely / lownsanned mummium.
17:37:09 <alise> Tremen parosides scantr / while isixing coucrics havese / and torkne offmanes grasik.
17:37:15 <cpressey> Gregor-W: Yeah, why are music tools for Linux so crap?
17:37:22 <cpressey> Gregor-W: I blame you, of course.
17:37:22 <alise> cpressey: Uh, LilyPond is excellent.
17:37:32 <Gregor-W> cpressey: LilyPond is fucking amazing.
17:37:58 <alise> I don't do music, but if I did, fuck yeah, LilyPond. Extremely high-quality typesetting of musical notation, no fucking with stupid GUIs.
17:38:14 <cpressey> I've wasted I don't know how many hours now just trying to get Rosegarden to run.
17:38:14 <Gregor-W> alise: I need a GUI for inputting music :P
17:38:46 <Gregor-W> Yeah. I've gotten used Rosegarden. It's not great ... I actually output LilyPond from Rosegarden, then make changes to that. To keep that maintainable I keep the whole thing in an hg repo with the original and modified in different branches X_X
17:39:34 <Gregor-W> Really what helps the most in Rosegarden is just MIDI input :P
17:39:44 <Gregor-W> It's basically just sufficient to allow me to input from MIDI, then output LilyPond :P
17:40:08 <cpressey> My computer can play video no problem, oh but to deal with MIDI, I need a "kernel that supports high resolution timing"?
17:40:44 <alise> The joicang woodles varrified / as finett aspions, excurely / lownsanned mummium.
17:40:44 <alise> Tremen parosides scantr / while isixing coucrics havese / and torkne offmanes grasik.
17:40:44 <alise> "Apskins," said the conept / "with marmods, schervy / these very fouttis oundir / and thfiert backabil.
17:40:44 <alise> "Verily, Zeman the Inindor / as stmatans and euntions / ofertifts so manionly / as tarlber and scrairefs too."
17:40:48 <Gregor-W> cpressey: You realize you can ignore that warning, right?
17:40:55 <Gregor-W> alise: You are truly an artiste.
17:41:07 <alise> Gregor-W: Just call me Alise Carroll.
17:41:34 <cpressey> Gregor-W: Well no, I didn't. I don't normally assume I can safely ignore warnings.
17:42:18 <Gregor-W> cpressey: Basically without such a kernel it doesn't know quite when the MIDI data has made it through that whole subsystem and actually been spit out as sound, so it can't keep the play bar perfectly in sync with the output. Still works though, it's just not perfectly synchronized.
17:42:52 <Gregor-W> Also if you had other audio it wouldn't be able to coordinate it, but I never do so *eh*
17:43:20 <Gregor-W> Anyway once you get past that warning the real hell begins, because then you're actually using Rosegarden X-P
17:44:06 <cpressey> I don't have a MIDI instrument anyway, so I will have to find some kind of renderer software (it told me about some packages the first time I started it up, but has not repeated that useful information on subsequent starts I believe,) and I will have to hope that it has decent manual entry. If not, I'm looking at trackers. Or just giving up on composition.
17:44:46 <cpressey> Cause, you see, this kind of shit does not exactly put me in a creative mood.
17:44:51 <Warrigal> In C++, if I have a string variable and a char pointer, can I just assign the variable to the pointer and everything just work?
17:45:37 <Gregor-W> cpressey: Yeah, 's annoying. fluidsynth . Use this piano soundfont: ftp://musix.ourproject.org/pub/musix/sf2/Steinway_IMIS2.2/ . Look for "Chorium" for a good everything-else soundfont. Use the command line fluidsynth -l -a alsa <whatever>.sf2
17:46:47 <cpressey> Gregor-W: Thanks. (This is complicated by only-sporadic-internet-access-for-machine-this-is-on.)
17:47:07 <Warrigal> Wait, I asked a question whose answer I can easily determine experimentally. Oops.
17:47:35 <Gregor-W> cpressey: In my experience, all this crap does deter from the music-writing mood, but once you've got it all in place and can bring things up quickly, it's JUST tolerable! Wooooh tolerable!
17:48:39 <alise> Gregor-W: Behold: The Thrappas of Bagriga. http://pastie.org/1090723.txt?key=zjgqcnbndjcbfih6qnkeda
17:49:02 <alise> A poem by Conacred Visturs.
17:49:20 <Gregor-W> alise: Your quote use is inconsistent.
17:49:54 <Gregor-W> The third stanza has an unterminated quote, but all other quotes are terminated.
17:50:05 <alise> Gregor-W: That is because the third stanza's speech continues in the fourth stanza.
17:50:28 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Spakk onderstannablee, eenfydels!).
17:50:46 <Gregor-W> I'm not sure I've ever seen that corner of English written as such ...
17:51:03 <alise> Gregor-W: It is standard practice to not terminate a quote if it continues in the next paragraph.
17:51:49 * Sgeo_ has seen that convention before
17:51:56 <Sgeo_> Don't remember where
17:52:00 <alise> The Time Machine by H. G. Wells features it, at least.
17:52:04 <alise> I think The Lord of the Rings does too.
17:52:19 <cpressey> Yeah, it's a common screwed-up convention.
17:52:22 <alise> IIRC when Gandalf decides that the next paragraph should be entirely his recounting of events.
17:52:36 <alise> cpressey: Yes, but English is screwed up; so the conventions shall be adopted.
17:52:45 <cpressey> Like commas coming inside the end of a quote and all that.
17:53:06 <Gregor-W> That convention I refuse to uphold.
17:53:15 <alise> "Actually, that sometimes makes sense," said Alise, "because it denotes an actual pause."
17:53:21 <alise> "Other times, this may be more acceptable." said Alise.
17:53:26 <alise> "But not really this, " said Alise.
17:53:38 <alise> Gregor-W: But { "Foo", said Bar } is far worse.
17:53:47 <alise> It simply looks hideous when typeset.
17:54:08 <alise> {"Foo." said Bar} is perfectly unobjectionable.
17:54:40 <Gregor-W> Then it's ambiguous. Did the quote say Bar, or did Bar say the quote? X-P
17:54:40 <alise> { "Indeed; I also think that..." said Bob } I'd write as -- if that was for some reason unacceptable -- { "Indeed," said Bob; "I also think that..." }
17:55:06 <alise> Gregor-W: What's that? { "X" said Y } is the only occurance of OVS in English, and translates to { Y said "X" }? Gaspeth!
17:55:10 <fizzie> Re recaptcha, I recently got one where the second word was upside-down. I couldn't help wondering if they had one whole page scanned upside-down in there; most likely.
17:59:37 <Sgeo_> alise, using Chrome 6 yet?
18:00:34 <alise> If by "Chrome 6" you mean "Midori", then yes, I am using Chrome 6.
18:01:24 <Sgeo_> I remember you were a fan of Chrome at one point
18:01:45 <alise> I like it well enough; but on Linux its defiance of standard window conventions makes it a pain.
18:01:54 <alise> Chrome on Windows, lovely; on other OSes, not so much.
18:02:28 <Sgeo_> There are standard window conventions on Linux?
18:02:54 <alise> Well, a box with a title around the window shouldn't be "weird" to the program.
18:02:59 <alise> It is with Chrome, which likes to decorate its own stuff.
18:06:36 <alise> The Department of Extreme Morphology.
18:08:53 <alise> No, just morphology.
18:09:11 <alise> Also, I prescribe some any-language-but-bloody-Smalltalk to shut you up! :P
18:09:28 <Gregor-W> All recent browsers like to make themselves look like shit.
18:09:47 <alise> Gregor-W: I like how Chrome looks on Windows, it's a nice UI concept.
18:09:51 <Gregor-W> It's taking its UI design lesson from Opera. OPERA. Idiots.
18:09:51 <alise> But on other OSes, it falls down hard.
18:10:05 <alise> Ouch, looking at Firefox 4.0b2.
18:10:17 <Sgeo_> I should learn BancSTAR!
18:10:18 <alise> They took all the worst bits from Chrome and all the worst bits from Opera.
18:10:28 <alise> They have Chrome's tab-bar-title-bar thing WITHOUT ACTUALLY MAKING IT THE TITLE BAR.
18:10:28 -!- mutoga has joined.
18:10:37 <alise> They have TWO menus! Why?!
18:10:50 <Gregor-W> I HATE Chrome's tab-bar-title-bar thing. HATE
18:11:05 <Sgeo_> BancSTAR has supplanted my love for Smalltalk! I love BancSTAR!
18:11:06 <alise> But only on Windows.
18:11:21 <alise> Sgeo_: But what about NewSTAR?!
18:11:25 <alise> It's not ready yet!
18:11:34 <Gregor-W> alise: However, FF4.0b2 doesn't have two menus, I don't know what you're on about there ...
18:11:51 <alise> http://www.betaarchive.co.uk/imageupload/1278232295.or.41572.PNG
18:11:58 * Sgeo_ can barely breathe from laughing
18:12:19 <Gregor-W> alise: That's weird. Not sure how they got that. I don't have that.
18:12:30 <alise> I guess they enabled it.
18:13:31 <Gregor-W> I can enable the menu bar but not the Firefox V dropdown, or I can enable the Firefox V dropdown but not the menu.
18:13:41 <alise> Firefox V is the marketing name for Firefox 5
18:13:44 * pikhq really, truly hates music piracy
18:13:54 <alise> pikhq: I totally interpreted that the wrong way for a second.
18:14:01 <alise> pikhq: I was about to KILL YOU.
18:14:24 <pikhq> Why oh *why* must torrents have such crappy tagging?
18:14:35 <pikhq> I've got a discography torrent with *untagged* files!
18:14:54 <pikhq> Thank God that MusicBrainz takes care of 99% of the work.
18:15:06 <alise> pikhq: Also suggestion: Ex Falso.
18:15:08 <Gregor-W> Although some of the olde ones are probably untagged.
18:15:19 <alise> pikhq: Very capable multi-file tag editor *and* renaming-based-on-tags-itor.
18:15:30 <alise> pikhq: I tag all my shit with it.
18:15:42 <pikhq> alise: Does it use MusicBrainz?
18:15:54 <alise> pikhq: No, it's a manual editor. You could use it to clean up after MusicBrainz.
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18:15:58 <pikhq> Cause I quite like being able to look up sane tagging info for 99% of stuff.
18:16:09 <alise> MusicBrainz -> Tweak with Ex Falso, I'd suggest.
18:16:16 <alise> But then I'm weird; I don't even use any genre tags.
18:16:19 <alise> (It's too difficult to decide!)
18:16:41 <pikhq> Gregor-W: I'm pretty sure that I've *got* them, but it's not like I *care*.
18:16:41 <alise> Gregor-W: Unless you do the GENRE/STYLE system, where you have one hopelessly vague GENRE and crazily specific STYLEs.
18:16:44 <Gregor-W> They offend me because there's only one tag for all music before 1920. Or I guess two or three, but not many is the point :P
18:16:53 <alise> Gregor-W: Oh, ID3.
18:17:01 <pikhq> I mean, I don't even *care* about the genre of music.
18:17:18 <pikhq> If it's good, then I'm satisfied regardless of genre. If it's shit, then, well, it's shit.
18:17:20 <alise> What we REALLY need is an ontological taxonomy for genres!
18:17:31 <alise> So that we can specify the genre of music with a list of tags, each of which has relations to other tags!
18:17:51 <alise> Like, we could have a rule that... Iunno, "some-genre = (a + b) - c".
18:17:53 <pikhq> Even if it *is* prog rock or something, it's still shit. And if it's good, it's good in spite of being, say, rap.
18:18:05 <alise> i.e. "Oh yeah, some genre music is like a with b, but without the c aspects."
18:18:06 <pikhq> (you can now see my biases)
18:18:24 <Gregor-W> I tag all music as either "classical" or "post-classical"
18:18:39 * alise wonders what formula metal is
18:18:54 <alise> metal = rock + (symphonic - orchestral) + noise, perhaps
18:19:00 <alise> oh, clearly we need scaling factors
18:19:01 <pikhq> "Metal" is a ridiculously vague genre.
18:19:08 <alise> pikhq: Of course; that's why you have subgenres.
18:19:14 <alise> progressive+metal, for instance, is the obvious thing.
18:19:52 <alise> doom-metal = metal + slow + low-tuned + ...
18:19:57 <alise> Then you have progressive+doom-metal.
18:20:05 <Gregor-W> What does "low-tuned" mean ...
18:20:13 <alise> Gregor-W: The guitars are tuned low. :P
18:20:14 <pikhq> I mean, Led Zeppelin and Anal Cunt are both metal.
18:20:24 <Gregor-W> alise: So ... they're out of tune?
18:20:28 <cpressey> Prog metal? Like, um -- Living Color?
18:20:29 <alise> Gregor-W: Shut up.
18:20:38 <alise> Consider a song which is 1/3 rap, 1/3 metal and 1/3 rap-metal.
18:20:39 <pikhq> (yes, Anal Cunt is a real band.)
18:20:47 <alise> genre = (rap, metal, rap+metal).
18:20:51 <Gregor-W> pikhq: That surprises me none whatsoever.
18:20:53 <alise> You COULD have scaling factors here... but no.
18:20:57 <Sgeo_> Gregor-W, after I finish watching Air Part 3, can I skip straight to Time?
18:20:58 <alise> pikhq: Anal Cunt are awesome.
18:21:10 <alise> Sgeo_: Don't skip episodes of TV series. That's fucking retarded.
18:21:18 <Gregor-W> Sgeo_: I don't think any of them are skippable.
18:21:38 <alise> Gregor-W: Well, I guess you could skip all of Lost but the first and last episodes.
18:21:51 <alise> Someone will probably pipe up "Naruto", but I'll reply that you should skip all of Naruto because jesus christ you have no taste.
18:21:55 <Gregor-W> Or, save yourself some time and skip all of Lost.
18:22:03 <pikhq> Of course, nowadays Led Zeppelin hardly even comes across as hard rock, much less metal...
18:22:26 <pikhq> (god damned music evolution. :P)
18:22:49 <alise> pikhq: One advantage of this ONTOGENREONOMY is that you could search, e.g. "thick + synthesised" (where synthesised refers to the "stereotypical" synthesiser sound, like 80s)
18:23:22 <alise> You could just not tag genres!
18:23:42 <cpressey> I don't know what the hell you folks are talking abuot
18:24:13 <Gregor-W> cpressey: They're discussing the nature of a concept I disdain due to its poor ability to classify all of my favorite music :P
18:24:30 <Gregor-W> Arguably they're developing it into something I would find more useful.
18:24:31 <alise> Gregor-W: But the ontogenreonomy would be so subtle and ... huge, that you could classify all your music precisely!
18:24:33 <cpressey> track 01.ogg <-- ALL MY MP3S LOOK LIKE THIS
18:24:38 <alise> If you devoted years to it!
18:24:41 <alise> cpressey: Your mp3s have weird file extensions.
18:24:43 <alise> cpressey: Or weird containers.
18:24:46 <alise> MP3 in OGG, fuck yeah.
18:26:24 <Gregor-W> Incidentally, can anybody recommend a COMMAND-LINE tagging tool for GNU/Linux that isn't terrible?
18:28:27 <alise> But, uh, command-line tagging is a bit of a bitch; tagging can get quite complicated.
18:28:40 <cpressey> There's a whole science behind it I hear
18:29:14 <Gregor-W> I just need to supply a title and year, the rest is always consistent. Also, metaflac is FLAC-only last I checked :P
18:29:35 <Gregor-W> I need something that I can just say "Tag these .mp3, .ogg, .flac, .whatever files all the same DO IT DO IT DO IT"
18:30:29 <alise> pikhq: Clearly we need to divide things into lyrical and musical themes.
18:30:40 <alise> christian-gangster-rap = lyrical:christian + ganster-rap
18:31:15 <Gregor-W> alise: You need to choose something better than a hyphen, it keeps making me think "minus", which is also a useful operator.
18:31:24 <alise> Okay, fine; quoted names.
18:31:32 <cpressey> yes we must devise a complete system
18:31:41 <alise> 'christian gangster rap' = lyrical:christian + musical:'gangster rap'
18:31:57 <alise> lyrical:christian = @{lyrical:religious}
18:32:03 <alise> The @{...} means "more than the sum of these parts".
18:32:05 <alise> I guess it could be @ +.
18:32:08 <alise> lyrical:christian = @ + lyrical:religious
18:32:18 <alise> Because that's the only related theme, but it's something new; a new atomic concept, of Christian lyrics.
18:32:52 <Gregor-W> Ah yes, the genre that puts Bach and (wtf, Christian gangster rap?) in the same group.
18:33:12 <alise> Gregor-W: Eh? Which?
18:33:29 <alise> -- You do realise that lyrical:christian wouldn't be used as a genre by itself, right?
18:33:38 <alise> It's a component of other genres, like 'christian gangster rap'.
18:33:57 <Gregor-W> I don't see what the purpose in making this distinction is.
18:34:03 <alise> There is no distinction.
18:34:12 <Gregor-W> Then lyrical:christian is a genre.
18:34:15 <alise> But nobody sane would tag their files genre = {lyrical:christian}. :P
18:34:25 <alise> You could also say things like {lyrical:christian + 'progressive rock'}, since nobody's crazy enough to define 'christian progressive rock'.
18:34:33 <Gregor-W> But if you SEARCHED for lyrical:christian, you'd get both Bach and Christian gangster rap.
18:34:34 <alise> The only reason I defined 'christian gangster rap' is because it's one of the Nullsoft genres.
18:34:48 <alise> Gregor-W: Yes, such are the consequences of awful searches.
18:35:01 <Gregor-W> Unless that's what you were looking for!
18:35:15 <Gregor-W> You just want the Love of Jesus photons to wash over you, you don't care where they're from.
18:35:54 <alise> Hmm, lyrical: is perhaps not the best tag; it's really vocal.
18:35:57 <alise> But then it's lyrical too.
18:36:15 <alise> But then vocal:female is a relatively silly tag as nobody will be that specific.
18:36:28 <Gregor-W> Arguably "lyrical" means that the speaking is somehow "to" the music, so it's not spoken-word.
18:36:35 <Gregor-W> Whereas "vocal" just means "here there be voices"
18:36:55 <alise> How would you denote lyrical-including-spoken-word-text?
18:37:01 <alise> textual: and vocal:
18:37:20 <Gregor-W> So textual means it's not just sounds produced by the human voice, but in a language?
18:37:31 <alise> Gregor-W: Well, almost.
18:37:41 <alise> Gregor-W: In fact, yes, I think so.
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18:38:01 <alise> Gregor-W: Although e.g. textual:vonlenska would be a valid tag, even though that isn't a "real" language.
18:38:37 <Gregor-W> Yes, I think this system of metagenres will catch on ANY DAY NOW.
18:39:02 <alise> It's for people who REALLY REALLY CARE.
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18:39:16 <alise> cpressey: *key:'e flat'
18:39:20 <Gregor-W> cpressey: What if it changes keys?
18:39:30 <Gregor-W> Also, you missed major/minor/other modes.
18:39:34 <alise> Gregor-W: something having a genre X only means that it has aspects of that genre, etc.
18:39:36 <alise> not necessarily exclusively
18:39:47 <alise> {key:'e flat' + key:a} is a perfectly acceptable genre.
18:39:55 <Gregor-W> key:"f major" key:"b flat minor" wooooh
18:40:07 <Gregor-W> And key:"f major" = key:f + key:major
18:40:13 <cpressey> key[1]:'e_flat' mode[1]:'major' key[2]:'c_sharp' mode[1]:'minor'
18:40:31 <Gregor-W> cpressey: OMG mode[1] is both major AND minor!
18:40:47 <Gregor-W> I'M LOOKING FOR SOMETHING WHERE THE SECOND MODE IS MINOR
18:41:06 <cpressey> that's why we have devised this complete system for you
18:41:18 <cpressey> crimes that the lead singer has been comitted of
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18:41:47 <alise> arson, murder, jaywalking, defenestration
18:41:52 <alise> cpressey: RDF inspired this!
18:42:00 <alise> we need to incorporate EmotionML
18:42:05 <alise> for denoting the precise emotion of parts of the song
18:42:10 <cpressey> alise: needs to interface to external RDF databases so's I can run my queries
18:42:20 <alise> http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-emotionml-20100729/
18:42:53 <Gregor-W> leBMD: You've walked in while we talk about stupid stuff :P
18:43:02 <leBMD> yeah, it seems like that.
18:43:06 <alise> Gregor-W: You mean, he walked in while we were doing our usual thing?
18:43:07 <Gregor-W> chord[1].notes=1 + note[1].value=c4 + note[1].duration=1/4 + chord[2].notes=2 + note[2].value=c4 + ...
18:43:16 <alise> leBMD: are you here for the religious stuff
18:43:23 <alise> Gregor-W: YOU'RE JUST SPECIFYING THE ENTIRE SONG
18:43:27 <leBMD> What do you mean by that?
18:43:37 <Gregor-W> leBMD: He's being a pessimist, ignore him X-P
18:43:44 <alise> Gregor-W: vocalisation-by-drummer="raw audio data"
18:43:50 <alise> leBMD: we get a lot of people in for that
18:43:57 <alise> whereas we are for the programming stuff.
18:44:00 <leBMD> So, are you guys...making a music macro language?
18:44:37 <alise> leBMD: We STARTED OUT defining the Ontological Genre Taxonomy Database to rule over all other genre systems.
18:44:47 <pikhq> Who's the monster responsible for 320kbps MP3?
18:44:51 <alise> Never again would your searches not find the subtlest elements of genres in your songs; never again shall your tracks not be accurately tagged.
18:45:00 <Gregor-W> leBMD: As that genre system got more ridiculous, I decided to mock it by defining the entire piece as a "genre" :P
18:45:04 <alise> leBMD: BUT THEN-- Gregor made it into a complete musical-piece-specification system because he is even more insane than us.
18:45:20 <alise> pikhq: Someone who never realised that they're using LAME.
18:45:29 <Gregor-W> Oh, I know! sample[0].value=0 sample[1].value=1 sample[2].value=1 ...
18:45:53 <leBMD> here's what you do: look for a major followed by a quick minor, repeated twice. Then, you tag that as a "legendary" song.
18:46:24 * Gregor-W writes a quick legendary song.
18:46:39 <leBMD> Just go with the four chords used in every other legendary song.
18:46:52 <leBMD> Like in the beginning of "Streetlight people" by Journey.
18:46:55 <Gregor-W> It goes like this: C major chord, C minor chord staccato, C major chord, C minor chord staccato.
18:47:40 <Gregor-W> It's in 5/4, one measure long, and ends with a quarter rest.
18:47:54 <alise> C major chord / C minor chord (staccato) / C major chord / C minor chord (staccato) -- sung to the beginning of Beethoven's fifth played twice
18:48:25 <leBMD> Oh, by the way, how do I add a language ot the wiki?
18:48:34 <alise> leBMD: Go to the page, edit it.
18:48:41 <alise> Use the search box or change the URL.
18:48:50 <Gregor-W> Make sure to categorize it as appropriate so it'll be listed somewhere.
18:48:59 <alise> [[Category:Appropriate]]
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18:54:11 <leBMD> Is there a way to put stuff in a box, kind of like quote boxes on a forum?
18:57:46 <cpressey> Oh crap, then there's all that mess with setting up JACK, I completely forgot.
18:58:17 <Sgeo_> Gregor-W, is all of SGU going to be people fighting?
18:58:47 <Gregor-W> Sgeo_: Pretty much. With a lot of soap-opera-esque pseudodrama and painfully obvious rivalries.
18:58:50 <alise> Asking someone with a low opinion of a work with a negative question is not going to produce a positive response.
18:59:35 <Sgeo_> Gregor-W, as long as that's not the point of many episodes a season, I think I'll be ok
18:59:47 <Sgeo_> I hated the Earth politics episodes of SG1, but I survived
19:00:08 <Gregor-W> Naw, I don't think it's QUITE the same style of badness.
19:00:20 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
19:01:27 <Sgeo_> And at least these characters are human. I have trouble imagining flaws in the SG-1 characters
19:02:35 <alise> Yeah because it's not like SG-1 had any humans.
19:03:17 <Sgeo_> Characters without flaws shouldn't be considered human
19:03:34 <Sgeo_> Hmm.. Sam was gullible once
19:04:10 <Gregor-W> Sgeo_: Give it time, the characters in SGU will become inhuman in the other direction.
19:05:26 <leBMD> ok, boys. Here is my work: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Noobinary
19:05:27 <alise> Bah, we just need $ARBITRARY_TELEVISION_NETWORK to give the green-light on Odyssey and we'll finally have decent character-based sci-fi on TV.
19:06:54 <Sgeo_> If I made an interpreter in Smalltalk, would I be slapped?
19:11:02 <leBMD> I tried using Little Smalltalk once.
19:11:07 -!- boily has joined.
19:11:21 <leBMD> I couldn't handle having to highlight all my code. Maybe if I played with it more I'd learn a better way.
19:11:40 <alise> alt-d/p work without selection in modern squeak
19:13:06 <Sgeo_> alise, that only does one line, I think
19:13:40 <Sgeo_> Gregor-W, what's with the religionness?
19:14:35 <alise> Sgeo_: indeed it does
19:14:42 <alise> "the religionness"?
19:15:05 <alise> What are you talking about?
19:15:14 <alise> Protip: It's not really there
19:15:22 <alise> Protip: What happens if you're in the desert for ages and don't drink?
19:18:32 <Sgeo_> Now, more important question: WHY IS MY SOUND SCREWING UP?!?!?!?
19:18:45 <leBMD> FOR THE SAME REASON THAT THE DINOSAURS DIED.
19:18:51 <alise> leBMD: which is because he sucks
19:18:54 <Gregor-W> Because you touch yourself at night.
19:20:09 <leBMD> well, I'm gonna go read a book or kick puppies or something.
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19:23:43 <Sgeo_> How do I restart sound on Windows?
19:24:32 <fizzie> By restarting Windows, is my guess.
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19:41:33 <cpressey> /usr/bin/jackd: symbol lookup error: /usr/bin/jackd: undefined symbol: _jack_get_microseconds
19:42:12 <cpressey> No wonder Rosegarden can't connect to Jack
19:47:23 <cpressey> I have a bar of quarter notes. Next challenge: make sound.
19:48:34 <cpressey> Select: Audio. Select: Generators > Oscillators. Select: FM Oscillator. CRASH.
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19:54:44 <alise> cpressey: What are you attempting to do?
19:54:51 <Gregor-W> cpressey: Uhhh, why are you using audio generators in Rosegarden instead of just MIDI synth?
19:55:04 <Gregor-W> cpressey: Mind you, that still shouldn't crash, but this is Rosegarden :P
19:55:54 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
19:57:34 <Gregor-W> Rosegarden crashed his IRC client.
20:00:46 -!- ais523 has joined.
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20:03:35 <ais523> cpressey: blood conducts electricity rather well
20:03:44 <ais523> it thus doesn't mix well with electronic equipment
20:05:22 <alise> SCP idea: A computer made entirely out of organic matter; communication is by tubes filled with blood...
20:06:16 <cpressey> That's quite disturbing. I like it.
20:06:50 <alise> ...and it's incredibly powerful, if you can figure it out... but after a while, users of it seem to...disappear...
20:06:59 <alise> And the computer is growing. THEN WHO WAS PHONE?
20:07:12 <cpressey> Gregor: I believe I have got to the point where the million dollar question is: How do I tell Rosegarden "fluidsynth is running! you should talk to it!"
20:08:23 <cpressey> Is there a "talk to fluidsynth" "synth plugin" or something? I have no synth plugins.
20:15:25 -!- cpressey has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
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20:17:41 <Phantom_Hatter> alise, interested in seeing Lumenos try to explain his philosophy to mortals?
20:20:19 <alise> Phantom_Hatter: Yes.
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20:34:23 <Phantom_Hatter> Rats, I have been foiled by Lazy K's innate lack of reliable IO scheduling.
20:38:43 <Phantom_Hatter> I think it's impossible to schedule things to output 'a', then input something, then output 'b', then print the aforementioned something.
20:43:35 <Phantom_Hatter> Although it does rather nasty things to my beautiful abstraction.
20:53:12 <Gregor-W> Y'know, I would answer cpressey's questions, but he's not online :P
20:53:19 <Gregor-W> If he's asking that question, then he's doing it all wrong :P
20:53:36 <Gregor-W> w.r.t. making Rosegarden talk to fluidsynth.
20:53:59 <Sgeo_> I think TV Tropes just massively spoiled "Light" for me
20:54:05 <Sgeo_> And I didn't even look at any spoilers!
20:54:25 <Sgeo_> Phantom_Hatter, episode of SGU
20:55:02 <coppro> that episode will get spoiled if you watch anything afterwards
20:55:47 <Sgeo_> coppro, I've been watching these eps in order
20:56:02 <Phantom_Hatter> Reading TV Tropes on anything you haven't finished watching/reading/telepathing is generally going to spoil it.
20:56:25 <Phantom_Hatter> There is a strange habit not to spoiler out tropes like "everybody dies".
20:58:36 * pikhq should make a not-shitty music player for his phone
21:00:29 <coppro> Sgeo_: I have fixed the offending spoilers
21:01:17 <pikhq> Alternately, I could just install X11 on it and call it a day.
21:01:29 <Gregor-W> coppro: Too late now, what has been seen cannot be unseen!
21:01:36 <pikhq> And a Debian chroot, of course.
21:01:52 * alise implements delegation in javacsript
21:02:18 -!- boily has quit (Quit: leaving).
21:02:26 <Gregor-W> I'll implement your MOM in JavaScript.
21:02:59 <alise> I'm doing a nomic in Javascript to steal Warrigal's thunder >_>
21:03:42 <Gregor-W> Hard to imagine how that could work well as a nomic since JavaScript is all client-side.
21:03:59 <Warrigal> If it's Free, I can incorporate pieces of it into my own.
21:04:15 <Warrigal> Gregor-W: it's difficult to imagine how a programming language itself can be client-side.
21:04:20 <alise> Warrigal: Just for saying "Free" with a capital F I'll make sure it's not.
21:04:40 <Warrigal> alise: sorry. Do you have any other English usage guidelines I should follow?
21:04:43 <Gregor-W> Warrigal: Since ALL JAVASCRIPT IMPLEMENTATIONS ARE CLIENT-SIDE (excluding shitty half-baked server-side JS systems)
21:04:49 <alise> Warrigal: Yes: prose before hoes.
21:04:49 <pikhq> Still alternately... Any SDL programs that'd be nice to have on here?
21:05:00 <pikhq> I should be able to just cross-compile and it'll "just work".
21:05:02 <Gregor-W> alise: If it's FREE AS IN FREEDOM
21:05:02 <alise> Gregor-W: Apart from Rhino, SpiderMonkey, V8, ...
21:05:23 <alise> And while I don't like node.js, I would hardly call it "half-baked".
21:05:28 <alise> http://nodejs.org/
21:05:40 <alise> And it isn't purely server-based, either.
21:06:05 <Warrigal> Gregor-W: yeah, I'm not sure what makes a JavaScript implementation client-side, either.
21:06:16 <alise> Because I'm right? :P
21:06:18 <Warrigal> SpiderMonkey seems to be pretty agnostic as to where you run it.
21:06:22 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Quit: Quit).
21:06:44 <Warrigal> You can put it in clients. You can put it in servers. You can put it in toaster ovens.
21:06:59 <Gregor-W> Yes, I've even used SpiderMonkey in wildly non-browsery contexts, but here's the facts: When you write JS code, you're either writing code to be run in a browser, or never to be run at all.
21:07:27 * Sgeo_ takes coppro's name out of the lottery
21:07:54 <Gregor-W> node.js, lest there be confusion, goes into the "never to be run at all" category.
21:07:56 <alise> Gregor-W: Unless you're making your own infrastructure. Gasp!
21:08:13 <alise> I like how you're completely ignoring all the people that use node.js just because it isn't very common and you don't like it.
21:08:19 <Gregor-W> alise: Making your own infrastructure fits quite squarely into "never to be run at all"
21:08:21 <Sgeo_> What's so bad about node.js, besides not being Smalltalk?
21:08:24 <alise> By the same token, we should not create a Brainfuck Nomic.
21:08:29 <alise> It's impossible, because it's code that's never to be run at all!
21:08:35 <Warrigal> Got it. All non-browser JavaScript is heathen.
21:08:44 <alise> Gregor-W: Yeah, people are never going to load http://javascriptnomiclol.org/ and click around.
21:08:47 <alise> Maybe even type in some characters.
21:08:55 <alise> This is because server-based JavaScript is never to be run at all.
21:08:59 <alise> You're being stupid, by the way.
21:09:03 <ais523> alise: I did start writing a BFnomic, but gave up
21:09:12 <Gregor-W> You people. You people are so stupid. I'm making a SOCIOLOGICAL statement here.
21:09:12 * Sgeo_ takes Gregor-W's name out of the lottery
21:09:15 <alise> `addquote <ais523> it was too difficult
21:09:23 <alise> Gregor-W: And that ... doesn't make you stupid?
21:09:26 <HackEgo> 212|<ais523> it was too difficult
21:09:32 <alise> `addquote <Gregor-W> You people. You people are so stupid. I'm making a SOCIOLOGICAL statement here.
21:09:32 <ais523> that's not a particularly /good/ quote...
21:09:34 <HackEgo> 213|<Gregor-W> You people. You people are so stupid. I'm making a SOCIOLOGICAL statement here.
21:09:41 <alise> ais523: it is one I previously thought would never be uttered, however
21:09:49 <alise> like the one where oklopol said he didn't understand or something
21:10:06 <ais523> am I not allowed to be honest about my own limitations?
21:10:15 <alise> You have LIMITATIONS?
21:10:19 <ais523> I think you'd think it much more likely of me to admit I couldn't do something, than to claim I could anyway
21:10:20 <Gregor-W> ais523: It's simpler than that, you're not allowed to have limitations.
21:10:49 <Warrigal> ais523: you are now playing in Advanced Mode. All limitations now count against you.
21:10:58 <Warrigal> Also, if you die now, you die permanently.
21:11:11 <ais523> weren't those the rules beforehand?
21:11:13 <Gregor-W> When you rape a puppet, IT DIES.
21:11:16 <ais523> in life, as it is in NetHack?
21:11:39 <Warrigal> Nope. Back then, you were in Basic Mode; limitations didn't really count and death only resulted in a penalty.
21:11:59 <Sgeo_> That should be an esolang
21:12:20 <Sgeo_> </wannabe-catchphrase-that-i-cant-convince-anyone-is-my-catchphrase>
21:12:38 <alise> You misspelled "Kant".
21:13:13 <Warrigal> Technically, he misspelled "can't".
21:13:25 <Gregor-W> Technically he misspelled "cunt"
21:13:35 <Warrigal> Well, technically, he misspelled every word except "cant".
21:15:04 <Warrigal> Have we ever had a JavaScript bot in here? Because that would be kinda nice.
21:15:07 * Sgeo_ grumbles at Chloe/Non-..game guy
21:16:46 <alise> Sgeo_: Wow, I forgot game guy's name already.
21:17:07 <Gregor-W> I would've remembered it if you guys hadn't just beamed forgetness at me.
21:17:28 <Phantom_Hatter> http://pastebin.com/68AqfN8r is the current state of the code, BtW.
21:17:52 <Phantom_Hatter> Although I slightly patched lazier.scm and prelude.scm to make them work properly.
21:17:56 <alise> Gregor-W: Yeah, that's what happened to me...
21:18:01 <alise> "Dammit, why did you make me forget?"
21:21:00 -!- Killerkid has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:24:49 <Gregor-W> Phantom_Hatter: That ... was the greatest use of a diaeresis mark ever.
21:25:02 <alise> It was a perfectly normal use.
21:25:47 <Gregor-W> It was a perfectly correct use. It was not a perfectly normal use.
21:26:28 <fizzie> It looks pretty weird for us Finns (or at least me), what with the ö being a letter of its own and all.
21:26:54 <Gregor-W> Screw you Finns and your lack of coöperation with obscure English.
21:27:42 <Gregor-W> (Sorry, cooperate was the only word I could think of :P )
21:28:01 <fizzie> grep 'noöne' 2010-08.log | wc -l => 6; six times in a month on this channel, that's pretty normal already.
21:28:29 <alise> Gregor-W: We like the diæresis.
21:28:44 <fizzie> All are Phantom_Hooverisms. Plus one example from alise in 2010-03.
21:28:56 <alise> I don't use them so much because they're a bitch to type.
21:29:02 <fizzie> (Okay, the last is a Hatterism instead of a Hooversim.)
21:29:08 <alise> I want TeX in my IRC input line. \"u -> ü
21:29:31 <Gregor-W> Well I don't mean any ol' diaeresis mark.
21:29:36 <alise> Phantom_Hatter: Yes, but hitting compose is meh.
21:29:43 <Gregor-W> I mean "no one", collapsed, diaeresis'd.
21:29:49 <fizzie> Lucky us, we've got dedicated keys for ä and ö.
21:29:55 <alise> as is no-one ergo no\"one
21:30:03 * alise sets compose to right windows key, discovers he has no right windows key
21:30:12 * alise sets it to the menu key
21:30:19 <alise> noöne could think that typing like this was easy
21:30:29 <alise> it's so inconvenient to use your thumb to hit menu then go all the way up to "
21:30:40 <Warrigal> Dude, I'm on a MacBook, and even I have a right Windows key.
21:30:49 <alise> Dude, I don't care about having a right Windows key.
21:30:58 <alise> You have a right Option key.
21:31:03 <alise> Or a right Command key, depending which you think is which.
21:31:07 <Phantom_Hatter> You have a command key, which is completely different.
21:31:07 <alise> Gregor-W: On your Xbox?!
21:31:10 <fizzie> I have compose in menu key too, but in this keyboard they've hidden the menu key as fn-printscreen, of all things. It's very awkward to type.
21:31:21 <Warrigal> I think I have a Command key, which is exactly the same thing.
21:31:31 <Gregor-W> A box (computer) running X (windowing system)
21:31:34 <alise> Gregor-W: I wish \"b was a char so I could say "On your X\"box?!"
21:31:37 <Warrigal> And an Option key, which is something entirely different.
21:31:39 <alise> Warrigal: Erm, no.
21:31:50 <alise> The Option key is where the Windows key is.
21:31:55 <alise> The Command key is where the Alt key is.
21:32:09 <Warrigal> Well, the Option key works like an Alt key and the Command key works like a Windows key.
21:32:53 <alise> It seems I don't have GB files for compose. So I assume it's using the C locale.
21:33:03 <alise> Command+X is a regular shortcut; on Windows it would be Control+X.
21:33:23 <alise> The Windows key on Windows pops up the Start menu or e.g. Win+L locks the system.
21:33:29 <alise> i.e., it's for system-wide stuff, mostly.
21:33:32 <alise> Win+R brings up the Run... dialog.
21:33:49 <Warrigal> Well, yes, by "works like", I mean that pressing Command on this keyboard in some operating system does the same thing as pressing Windows on a different keyboard in the same operating system.
21:33:51 <alise> YOU ARE WRONG AND YOU SHOULD FEEL BAD.
21:33:56 <alise> Warrigal: Only by default.
21:34:00 <alise> That is configurable.
21:34:15 <alise> Indeed, it SHOULD be changed; the two keys are in the wrong place otherwise on other keyboards.
21:35:15 <alise> :( Compose - + doesn't give a \mp, it gives a \pm.
21:35:35 <alise> <Multi_key> <less> <quotedbl> : "“" U201c # LEFT DOUBLE QUOTATION MA
21:35:35 <alise> <Multi_key> <quotedbl> <less> : "“" U201c # LEFT DOUBLE QUOTATION MA
21:35:35 <alise> <Multi_key> <greater> <quotedbl> : "”" U201d # RIGHT DOUBLE QUOTATION M
21:35:38 <alise> <Multi_key> <quotedbl> <greater> : "”" U201d # RIGHT DOUBLE QUOTATION M
21:35:42 <alise> What an abomination.
21:35:52 <alise> It should be `` and ''!
21:35:58 <alise> But Compose ' ' -> ´
21:36:04 <alise> And compose `` does nothing, but ``` does `
21:36:14 <alise> Phantom_Hatter: /usr/share/X11/locale/[en_US.UTF-8]
21:36:14 <Warrigal> ``` does `. That's really useful.
21:36:25 <alise> there may be GB files
21:36:27 -!- Killerkid has joined.
21:36:29 * alise creates his personal compose file
21:36:31 <Warrigal> Does Compose Compose ` ` ` Compose ` ` ` Compose ` ` ` also give you `?
21:37:01 <alise> Phantom_Hatter: ~/.XCompose but you need to add some stuff, lemme tell you the stuff you need to add
21:37:25 <Warrigal> I guess the fact that ``` does ` comes from the fact that `` does nothing.
21:37:29 <alise> actually, compose-\-p should be pi or something
21:37:33 <alise> compose-\-x should be greek x
21:37:53 <alise> Phantom_Hatter: okay, put this in ~/.XCompose
21:38:00 <alise> include "... path to inherited Compose file"
21:38:06 <alise> # foo is a comment
21:38:14 <alise> Warrigal: x was a variable
21:38:42 <alise> Phantom_Hatter: include "%L" includes the default one for your local
21:39:04 <Sgeo_> Knowing what would happen made me happy when Dr. Rush was happy because I knew what he learned
21:39:50 <alise> <Multi_key> <b> <t> <w> : "by the way" # Compose b t w
21:39:50 <alise> <Multi_key> <less> <p> : "<p></p>" # Compose < p
21:39:55 <alise> Wow, you can do that?
21:40:14 <Gregor-W> What terrible compose sequences X-D
21:40:41 <Gregor-W> <Multi_key> <l> <o> <l> : "HAHAHAHAHA" # Compose lol
21:41:19 <alise> <Multi_key> <l> <o> <l> : "HAHAHAHAHA" # Compose lol
21:41:39 <myndzi> lol his legs got cut off
21:41:40 <Warrigal> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o>
21:41:52 <Warrigal> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o>
21:41:59 <fizzie> I think I had a "Cthulhu" key back when; it wasn't a compose thing, and it was pre-xkb, I think; but there was some sort of function key mapping system. It might've been even something lower-level.
21:42:10 <Warrigal> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o>
21:42:21 <Phantom_Hatter> Does saving .XCompose cause the configuration to be immediately updated?
21:42:23 <Warrigal> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o> <o>
21:42:24 <myndzi> /'\ /'\ /< |\ /< /< /< |\ /< |\ /<
21:42:40 <Gregor-W> Warrigal: The first two are flashing you.
21:43:13 <alise> How do you obtain a female stickfigure?
21:43:15 <alise> Phantom_Hatter: No.
21:43:21 <myndzi> what would it look like?
21:43:32 <Gregor-W> alise: With the Unicode infinity symbol.
21:44:38 <alise> Phantom_Hatter: I dunno, I just restarted X.
21:44:40 <pikhq> I love that Unicode has a redirect for that glyph.
21:44:59 <alise> Phantom_Hatter: Sure.
21:45:07 <pikhq> Warrigal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E2%98%83
21:45:31 <alise> ONE OF MY FONTS HAS THE UNICODE SNOWMAN
21:45:34 <alise> SURROUNDED BY MANY, MANY SNOWFLAKES
21:45:58 <alise> pikhq: By Unicode, you mean Wikipedia.
21:46:13 <alise> also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/✄
21:46:17 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/✈
21:46:37 <alise> Gregor-W: What, in particular?
21:46:42 <alise> The snowman or the redirects?
21:46:56 <alise> Phantom_Hatter: Only a bureaucratic one.
21:47:10 <fizzie> Didn't they disable the ctrl-alt-backspace kill by default in many places? (Option "DontZap" "on" and so on.)
21:47:17 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_weather_in_London&redirect=no
21:47:28 <alise> "View history" --Wikipedia
21:47:31 <Gregor-W> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/☄
21:47:35 <alise> what was wrong with "History"?
21:48:38 <Gregor-W> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/☐
21:49:02 * alise tries to think of a nice compose sequence for the unicode snowman
21:50:55 -!- Phantom_Hatter has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:50:59 <alise> Or just log out and in again ...
21:51:08 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
21:53:37 <alise> Guh, beta is apparently commonly romanised to v now
21:53:42 <alise> Fuck that shit, I'm sticking with b
21:55:54 <alise> I'm just gonna do it in the way that seems obvious to me
21:55:57 <coppro> does Javascript have a set type?
21:55:59 <alise> Hmm, \eth can't be e, that's epsilon.
21:56:09 <coppro> or something similar that I can use for insertion and checking if a string is in it?
21:56:20 <alise> I can't do with n, that's \nu
21:56:26 <alise> coppro: yeah, an object.
21:56:30 <fizzie> If you can't get .Xcompose to work, and it's a Gnome/GTK+ app it's not working in, you might be suffering for the senseless compose-table hardcoding GTK+ does: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/GtkComposeTable (There's a "use XIM" workaround available.)
21:56:50 <coppro> alise: how do I do that?
21:57:09 <alise> coppro: var poop = {};
21:57:17 <alise> "x" in poop (or something)
21:59:19 <fizzie> And delete poop["x"]; if you need that one too.
21:59:38 <alise> fizzie: Now now, that never seems to happen (the not-working) for me.
21:59:44 <alise> Unless it hard-codes a very big compose table.
21:59:58 <fizzie> It hardcodes a table that's been derived from the X tables.
22:00:08 <alise> Shift+Ctrl+U doesn't work for me.
22:00:12 <alise> So presumably I'm on xim.
22:00:20 <fizzie> That sounds reasonable anyway.
22:00:35 <alise> So I think it uses xim by default these days.
22:00:37 <alise> It's always worked for me.
22:00:41 -!- mutoga has quit (Quit: :) ♪ © ¿ !~§¤[1;21] 0.6+8*9X²2¨@#|/[_.-{3,4°5^5"'€&6,55957(FR)<7%0=1=0%6>?&£`"5^5°4,3}-._]\|#@¨2²X9*8+7.0 [12;2]¤§~¡ ? 12±¾ ® ♪ (:).
22:00:44 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Mu.
22:01:00 <alise> And some software.
22:01:21 <alise> And it's all in lovely grey, I made sure of that by writing my own themes. :P
22:01:32 <fizzie> The shift-ctrl-U trick works here; so this one is with GTK's thing. It also looks spiffy; it writes an underlined thing there.
22:01:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:02:04 * alise tries to find an old blog post of tuomov's; it had a Compose setup with Greek romanisations
22:02:09 <alise> which I would like to see so I can steal them
22:02:10 <fizzie> Unfortunately I don't really remember Unicode codepoints, and if I have to run gucharmap, I'd probably just copy the things in instead of using any spiffy unicode-composition trick.
22:02:14 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
22:02:37 <Gregor-W> coppro: If you want a set of something other than strings, you're punked though.
22:05:16 <alise> Hmm, upsilon is romanised as y, not u.
22:05:18 <alise> I find that weird.
22:10:45 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Because the lowercase form looks like a u. It's more an instinctive thing.
22:11:06 <Phantom_Hoover> The Latin and Greek alphabets have been separated for millenia; of course they're going to be pretty different.
22:11:25 <alise> Now devise me a single-character romanisation scheme; mine sucks
22:12:27 <alise> Of course it does; I just made one up.
22:12:44 <alise> 23 letters in the Greek alphabet.
22:13:04 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, do you want a Romanisation that is fairly pronouncable?
22:14:30 <Gregor-W> What this world needs is MORE PLOF.
22:14:36 <ais523> there are several single-character romanisation schemes used in fonts designed for Greek, aren't there?
22:14:45 <ais523> e.g. q = theta is pretty common, or v = theta
22:15:32 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, true, but v or q for the "th" sound looks *really* weird.
22:17:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Additionally, delta→d is untrue to modern Greek, since it's a voiced "th".
22:17:41 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: It's better than romanisation schemes for Chinese.
22:17:42 <coppro> d is closest to the thorn
22:18:02 <ais523> y used to be used to "typewriterise" the thorn
22:18:10 <ais523> that's why you get "the" spelt as "ye" in old texts
22:18:26 <ais523> well, printing press originally, rather than typewriter
22:18:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Gamma→y is actually pretty nice, since it's either voiced velar fricative or the "y" sound, both of which sound similer.
22:20:26 <pikhq> Voiceless alveolo-palatal fricative. The Japanese "sh"...
22:21:16 <pikhq> It's the least sensible romanisation scheme I know of.
22:23:09 <coppro> that one's just like a higher-pitched sh, isn't it?
22:23:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Protip: writing anything without any typesystem *at all* is a path to insanity.
22:23:29 <pikhq> coppro: Not higher-pitched, but it is a very close sound.
22:24:23 <Phantom_Hoover> But getline returns a Church array of ASCII-encoded characters, while putstr takes an appending Church array.
22:24:54 <coppro> pikhq: I must be doing it wrong
22:25:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Where an "appending Church array" is a function which takes a value and sticks it in the cdr of its last cons.
22:26:17 <Phantom_Hoover> As such, the output was being unpacked with (cons 256 256), rather than having it appended to it.
22:27:44 <pikhq> Pinyin is so bad that it makes me want to learn Mandarin for the sole sake of being able to ignore Pinyin.
22:28:00 <Phantom_Hoover> At least I know that it's just being completely wrong.
22:43:34 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> alise, do you want a Romanisation that is fairly pronouncable? <-- I don't really care
22:44:30 <ais523> alpha->a, beta->b, gamma->c, delta->d, epsilon->e, zeta->f, eta->g, theta->h?
22:45:24 <alise> I'd like something I can us without memorising my special scheme.
22:45:30 <alise> Maybe I'll just use what the letters look like in English.
22:50:44 <alise> What I have right now:
22:50:56 <alise> αβγδεζηθικλμνξοπρστυφχψω
22:50:57 <alise> abgdezhqiklmnxoprstufcyw
22:52:23 * alise finds out how babel's greek option does it
22:53:16 -!- tombom__ has joined.
22:54:25 <alise> babel uses abgdezhjiklmnxoprstufqyw
22:54:36 <alise> which is almost exactly mine
22:54:49 <alise> why would it use q for \chi?!
22:56:04 <alise> why would it use j for theta?
22:56:08 <alise> I think my alphabet is the best so far.
22:56:09 <pikhq> Say, why don't you use letters with similar/same orthography?
22:56:18 -!- tombom_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
22:56:23 <alise> pikhq: Whaddya mean?
22:56:27 <alise> Use letters that look similar?
22:56:37 <alise> Orthography is writing.
22:56:49 <pikhq> alise: No, letters that derived from the same letter in Phoenecian script.
22:56:55 <ais523> wow, Oracle just sued Google
22:56:58 <alise> pikhq: Okay. You go find those letters out.
22:57:02 <alise> ais523: just = a little while ago
22:57:12 <ais523> just = since I was last online
22:57:18 <ais523> do you know what the allegations are?
22:57:30 <alise> & i don't particularly care
22:57:40 <ais523> copyright and patent infringement, apparently
22:57:48 <alise> http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/i/ne/pdfs/FINAL_Complaint.pdf
22:58:00 <alise> ais523: you trudge through the legalese
22:58:21 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: * no longer officially supported as a source+binary release
22:58:24 <ais523> I bet someone will fork
22:58:48 <Phantom_Hoover> It seems to be over Android's Java implementation, which Google wrote themselves.
22:59:26 <ais523> my guess as to what this is about is: Java's license requires you to stick to the Java standards
22:59:33 <ais523> and Android doesn't follow those standards
22:59:46 <alise> so, anyone want to bet on the probability that this would have happened if oracle /didn't/ acquire sun?
23:00:10 <ais523> Sun did sue Microsoft for much the same reason, and win
23:00:20 <ais523> that's likely to have encouraged Oracle to take on Google
23:00:50 <ais523> hmm, the scribd link stops working after several pages
23:00:59 <alise> what's the program to copy stdin to X11 clipboard/selection?
23:01:13 <alise> ais523: so use the pdf
23:01:16 <alise> http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/i/ne/pdfs/FINAL_Complaint.pdf
23:01:20 <alise> scribd is bullshit anyway
23:01:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Aren't there tonnes of 3rd-party Java implementations?
23:01:32 <alise> but your stupid filter stops me
23:01:38 <ais523> I'll grab it from the log
23:01:44 <alise> ais523: suggestion: replace links with "[link]", instead of filtering them out entirely
23:01:46 <alise> i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/i/ne/pdfs/FINAL_Complaint.pdf
23:01:47 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: yes, but they mostly follow the standards
23:02:13 <alise> ais523: ok, how about replacing them with (link /tmp/foo) where /tmp/foo contains the url >_>
23:02:16 <Gregor-W> http://pornthataiscanthave.com/
23:02:20 <alise> OR, how about just making them a dimmer colour.
23:02:33 * ais523 wonders what sort of domain "i.i.com.com" is
23:02:36 <alise> Gregor-W: Don't worry, ais523 won't miss it.
23:02:39 <alise> ais523: com.com = cnet
23:02:48 <alise> i.i = the weirdest smiley ever
23:02:53 <pikhq> alise: ab(g or c)dezh(DNE)(i or j)klmnxo(DNE)rsty(DNE)(DNE)(DNE)(DNE)
23:03:05 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:03:07 <alise> pikhq: Well, that's not helpful. At all.
23:03:12 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Does Not Exist, I'd assume.
23:03:18 <alise> pikhq: Find an earlier common route :D
23:03:19 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
23:03:31 <pikhq> alise: The common ancestor *was Greek*!
23:03:32 <alise> Or a later one, if that's the issue.
23:03:51 <pikhq> The Roman alphabet just didn't borrow enough.
23:03:54 <ais523> hmm, this complaint isn't particularly interesting
23:04:02 <ais523> I think Google's response will be more interesting, along the lines of "we have a license"
23:04:07 <pikhq> alise: Would you like me to fill in the blanks with other things that make sense?
23:04:28 <alise> pikhq: Yes. Here are my romanisations for the blanks, just for the record:
23:04:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, it looks like Oracle are just stropping over Google writing their own Java VM.
23:04:57 <alise> (I have upsilon as u instead, since y is psi)
23:05:51 <pikhq> alise: y comes from upsilon.
23:06:06 <ais523> German name for y is "Ypsilon"
23:06:06 <alise> But then what of psi?
23:06:13 <alise> again: then what of psi?
23:06:31 <pikhq> And I am absolutely not using q for theta; that's reserved for the (no longer used) Qoppa.
23:06:32 <Phantom_Hoover> I can't be bothered to Google variadic functions in Scheme; someöne here tell me how to do them.
23:06:44 <alise> pikhq: Oh, shut UP wrt Qoppa.
23:06:50 <pikhq> (okay, I may not have a choice)
23:06:54 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: (lambda (foo . rest) ...) (lambda rest ...)
23:07:12 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: wrt that diaeresis: you need it on a bunch of other words too
23:07:22 <alise> e.g. the second a in variadic
23:07:33 <alise> suggestion: only diaeresis identical vowels.
23:07:56 <alise> Seriously, I can't think of a good romanisation for psi.
23:08:05 <alise> ais523: In some languages (most notably German), the name upsilon, (üppsilon) is used to refer to the Latin letter Y as well as the Greek letter.
23:08:08 <alise> ais523: that doesn't gel with what you said
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23:08:27 <ais523> hmm, I'm going by what I was taught in school
23:08:39 <ais523> I don't find it completly implausible that the textbook was lying
23:09:22 <pikhq> Argh. Phi, chi, and psi have unknown origins.
23:11:05 <pikhq> abgdezhqiklmnxoprstyfcjw -- ?
23:11:39 <pikhq> The j is totally arbitrary.
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23:12:39 <Gregor-W> Anybody have suggestions for how I should arrange my music web site to clearly but non-confusingly give access to OGG, MP3, FLAC, DPR, DPR-pedal, PDF, RG and Ly files for each thing? :P
23:14:26 <Gregor-W> That much is obvious, but it's information overload to just have an enormous pile of links under each one.
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23:14:42 <alise> Gregor-W: Yes, I do have an idea.
23:14:57 <Gregor-W> Phantom_Hoover: Drop-down menu is good!
23:15:12 <Gregor-W> alise: Are you considering sharing this idea? :P
23:15:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor-W, it probably requires a redesign of the very concept of networks.
23:15:34 <alise> What's DPR{,-pedal}?
23:15:49 <Gregor-W> alise: Digital piano roll, and same with the pedal replaced by held notes.
23:16:08 <Gregor-W> A MIDI file, but I don't like to call it "MIDI" since that implies that some MIDI metadata is meaningful which isn't in DPRs.
23:16:14 <fizzie> Inscrutable icons -- preferrably completely made-up -- for different formats is also good.
23:16:20 <alise> Gregor-W: Performance - Notation
23:16:30 <alise> Gregor-W: Performance drop-downs to the audio files and the DPR files.
23:16:36 <alise> Notation drops down to the PDF, RG and Ly files.
23:16:45 <alise> Note: I thought of this before Phantom_Hoover, I just read it a bit later. :|
23:17:01 <Gregor-W> Nobody gets credit for the idea either way, so no crying ;)
23:17:14 <alise> I suggest the ordering for the menus be:
23:17:43 <alise> {OGG, MP3, FLAC, DPR, DPR-pedal} and {PDF, Rosegarden, LilyPond}
23:18:04 <Gregor-W> alise: So, the order I listed them in. Thanks X-P
23:18:12 <alise> I did manually order them :P
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23:18:29 <alise> Rationale: OGG should be above MP3 for advocacy reasons and the fact that most people can play Ogg Vorbis these days; FLAC afterwards because most people don't want FLAC, and DPR lastly because nobody knows what the fuck DPR is.
23:18:44 <alise> PDF first for notation since most people just want to take a look, Rosegarden for the tinkerers, and LilyPond for people who want to criticise your source code.
23:18:47 <alise> pikhq: Which is why it's in the list.
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23:19:05 <pikhq> Because freaks like me that are offended that there is not-FLAC in ~/audio
23:19:11 <pikhq> Because of, rather.
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23:19:48 <alise> pikhq: Hell, I'm offended that non-Blu-Ray exists in ~/video.
23:20:01 <alise> Also, dammit, it should be ~/music. Unless you really keep random audio in there.
23:20:02 <Gregor-W> Blu-Ray isn't comparable to FLAC, it's still lossy :P
23:20:12 <pikhq> alise: It's not all music.
23:20:29 <alise> Gregor-W: Yes but UNFORTUNATELY I don't have that kind of hard disk or ability to force everyone to release in that format.
23:20:29 <Gregor-W> How about ~/media . That word is so broad as to be useless, therefore it's perfect.
23:20:30 <pikhq> Gregor-W: "Best you can get" in general, though.
23:20:37 <alise> Gregor-W: Even editing is done with lossy formats!
23:20:40 <alise> Just very high-quality lossy formats.
23:20:45 <Gregor-W> alise: The worst kind of editing.
23:20:47 <pikhq> Also, technically FLAC is still lossy. Just doesn't lose any data that humans can here.
23:20:55 <pikhq> Gregor-W: But but ~/video~
23:21:02 <alise> Gregor-W: Erm ... you do realise even the most HD movie is still edited in lossy format?
23:21:06 <alise> <pikhq> Also, technically FLAC is still lossy. Just doesn't lose any data that humans can here.
23:21:13 <alise> It is as lossy as zip.
23:21:20 <Gregor-W> alise: I'm just using "the worst kind" as a broad statement :P
23:21:25 <alise> deflac . flac = id
23:21:29 <pikhq> alise: No, no, the *audio encoding* is itself lossy.
23:21:40 <Gregor-W> FLAC is "lossy" in that you can't get audio to the input format of FLAC without loss, but that's a stupid argument.
23:21:42 <alise> That's raw digital audio data being lossy, not the FLAC encoding.
23:22:03 <alise> Show me a better analogue audio storage method than vinyl, and I'll consider your objection!
23:22:06 <pikhq> speaker . deflac . flac . microphone != id, though anyone who can *tell* is named Clark Kent.
23:22:08 <Gregor-W> That's like saying PNG is lossy because you can't take a photon-per-photon accurate picture.
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23:22:33 <alise> pikhq: So wait, a tool that edits JPEGs without causing any quality distortion -- say rearranging parts of the image or something -- is lossy because JPEG is?
23:22:42 <alise> That MP3 cutting tool is lossy?
23:22:43 <pikhq> alise: I'm being silly is all.
23:23:27 <pikhq> Anyways: it still upsets me that people actually *make* greater-than-41kHz audio recordings.
23:23:36 <alise> The BDXL format supports 100GB and 128GB write-once discs[154][155] and 100GB rewritable discs for commercial applications. It was defined in June 2010.
23:23:41 <alise> Blu-Ray just got even hotter.
23:23:42 <pikhq> I'll give 48kHz a pass, but only barely.
23:24:04 <alise> pikhq: You must hate CDs.
23:24:19 <Vorpal> alise, useful for backups
23:24:34 <Vorpal> <alise> pikhq: So wait, a tool that edits JPEGs without causing any quality distortion -- say rearranging parts of the image or something -- is lossy because JPEG is?
23:24:40 <Vorpal> I used such a tool yesterday
23:24:45 <alise> Vorpal: What, a 128 GiB disc you can fit in a large-sized pocket?
23:24:50 <alise> Is only useful for backups?
23:24:51 <Gregor-W> AnMaster: We're just making fun of pikhq :P
23:24:53 <alise> You are the most boring fucking person alive.
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23:25:12 <alise> One: Effectively infinite porn collection. Two: Multiple high-definition movies.
23:25:19 <alise> Three: IT'S 128 GIB IN A FUCKING CD-SIZED DISC
23:25:22 <alise> IT HAS EVERY USAGE THAT EXISTS
23:25:25 <Gregor-W> alise: Effectively infinite my foot!
23:25:28 <coppro> I can code and watch Futurama simultaneously
23:25:41 <alise> Gregor-W: How high-quality is your porn?!
23:25:42 <Gregor-W> alise: That would barely cover one of the dozens of GENRES of porn in my collection!
23:25:49 <Vorpal> <alise> Three: IT'S 128 GIB IN A FUCKING CD-SIZED DISC <-- yes?
23:25:51 <alise> Genres? I hope they're ontologically taxonomic!
23:26:17 <alise> My rock is so hard, baby.
23:26:29 <Vorpal> alise, my /home is larger than 128 GB
23:26:31 <alise> I'm trying to imagine what kind of penis could be called a "rock" XD
23:26:36 <Vorpal> mostly due to virtualbox
23:27:08 <alise> pikhq: Anyway, Nyquist-Shannon sez that digital audio can very well be lossless from analogue.
23:27:24 <augur> alise: a rock cock, obviously
23:27:31 <alise> pikhq: Not in any real-world circumstance, though.
23:27:49 <alise> augur: rock cock, portmanteau time! Wait ... that's just "rock"
23:28:11 <pikhq> alise: Yeah, but... Good god, what is the possible benefit of going, say, 4 *times* that?
23:28:35 <pikhq> 128 kHz PCM audio. This is a real thing.
23:28:50 <augur> alise: or geodude's pokecock
23:29:03 <augur> presumably they reproduce, and they're made of rock
23:29:32 <alise> augur: they reproduce asexually
23:30:03 <alise> pikhq: I'm willing to believe that moar bitz than 16 help, though. That HDCD rip was noticeably different from the CD version.
23:30:15 <alise> I assume they didn't master the two separately, considering they were released at the ~same time.
23:30:24 <pikhq> alise: Yes, there exist actual differences from bitness.
23:30:42 <pikhq> You get a higher amount of dynamic range possible with higher bits.
23:30:51 <alise> pikhq: This wasn't even a /proper/ more-bitness; "HDCD encodes the equivalent of 20 bits worth of data in a 16-bit digital audio signal by using custom dithering, audio filters, and some reversible amplitude and gain encoding; Peak Extend, which is a reversible soft limiter and Low Level Range Extend, which is a reversible gain on low-level signals. There is thus a benefit at the expense of a very minor increase in noise.[2][3][4][5]"
23:30:51 <Vorpal> <alise> augur: they reproduce asexually <-- didn't they reproduce through pokemon daycare?
23:31:14 <pikhq> Even there, going beyond 24 bits is absolutely retarded.
23:31:15 <alise> pikhq: But it did sound better (the rip was processed with a DSP and spat out to a 24-bit FLAC)
23:31:26 <alise> The 4 extra bits were just zeroed out.
23:31:55 <Gregor-W> The most compelling reason to go beyond 24 bits is that there are no 24-bit computers.
23:31:57 <ais523> alise: pokemon reproduce sexually, or lay eggs
23:31:58 <Vorpal> pikhq, unless you are going to do something strange to it
23:32:14 <ais523> strangely, even the genderless ones reproduce sexually, but only with Dittos
23:32:14 <alise> ais523: Wow, Pokésex is actually canon?
23:32:21 <ais523> alise: it's kind-of brushed over
23:32:24 <Vorpal> pikhq, such as processing it
23:32:27 <pikhq> Gregor-W: Okay, true. 32-bit audio has reasons.
23:32:29 <Vorpal> as opposed to just playing it
23:32:30 <ais523> and even competitively relevnat
23:32:36 <pikhq> Vorpal: That's not how anything works at all.
23:32:39 <alise> ais523: Presumably Dittos are hermaphroditic.
23:32:40 <ais523> flawless dittos are highly valued as good parents
23:32:40 <fizzie> There are lots of 24-bit DSP chips in audio hardware, though.
23:32:43 <Vorpal> pikhq, well it does for images
23:32:48 <ais523> alise: they're shapechangers
23:32:53 <ais523> willing to act as either gender
23:32:56 <pikhq> Vorpal: You are thinking of *compression*.
23:32:58 <Vorpal> pikhq, viewing in 16 bits works fine, I use more for HDR processing though
23:33:01 <ais523> and can even become the opposite gender to "genderless", whatever that is
23:33:03 <alise> ais523: "This time, *I'll* have the cock!"
23:33:07 <Vorpal> pikhq, THAT is what I'm talking about
23:33:14 <ais523> alise: strangely, dittos can't breed with each other
23:33:19 <ais523> only with other species
23:33:19 <Vorpal> pikhq, HDR for audio doesn't make much sense though
23:33:22 <pikhq> Vorpal: No, I don't think you grok. 24 bit audio is enough to represent *the total dynamic range possible in air*.
23:33:26 <alise> ais523: This is getting hotter by the second!
23:33:39 <alise> Ditto: [appears as attractive female Pikachu] Pikachu: Pika...
23:33:42 <Gregor-W> pikhq: Hm, that seems ... unlikely ...
23:33:47 <alise> ais523: presumably the opposite of genderless is the entire gender spectrum
23:33:48 <Vorpal> pikhq, what about other materials?
23:33:50 <alise> sort of a gender overload
23:34:24 <ais523> (I actually have a flawless ditto on my own Pokémon cartridge, specifically for if I need to breed a flawless baby Pokémon)
23:34:39 * pikhq checks to make sure not talking out of ass
23:35:26 <ais523> (and used it to breed a flawless shiny Beldum, for use in a tournament)
23:35:33 <pikhq> Gregor-W: The dynamic range in decibels is *approximately* 6 dB per bit.
23:35:36 <alise> ais523: So wait, can a Ditto impregnate a female of another species with a Ditto?
23:35:53 <ais523> no, the child is always a member of the other species
23:36:02 <ais523> there is no canon-supported way to get a baby ditto
23:36:10 <ais523> which makes it quite a mystery where the things come from
23:36:32 <ais523> (more confusingly, a ditto + a male of the other species can give a baby of the other species; presumably the ditto lays the egg in that case)
23:37:04 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: perhaps, they're the right shape for it in their "natural" form
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23:38:27 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, dunno if you'll be interested, but I got the Lazy K IO thing working, and I'm trying to get a basic do notation working.
23:38:57 <oerjan> well do notation is simple, the haskell report contains explicit translation rules
23:39:36 <Phantom_Hoover> And of course, you have to engineer around Lazy K's lack of explicit scheduling by hand.
23:39:47 <oerjan> well the fail part is not relevant
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23:40:31 <oerjan> unless you add some kind of exceptions to your monad. or for that matter, pattern matching that might fail to your language
23:41:29 <oerjan> i didn't think the lack of scheduling would be a problem as long as your bind does it properly?
23:41:41 <alise> ais523: but if Dittos are specified to sexually reproduce it can't be mitosis
23:41:47 <alise> since it's not really reproduction if it's not a Ditto
23:42:02 <ais523> you can see /why/ the canon glosses over the details
23:42:05 <ais523> and only lets you see the end results
23:42:14 <oerjan> well you'll need to use reading operations that give the right scheduling when applied to the lazy input, i guess
23:42:26 <ais523> as a result, the details of inheritance, etc, are well known, the mechanisms aren't
23:42:41 <alise> ais523: pertinent question from friend: "...what if two dittos became the same Pokémon?"
23:42:53 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: no, link?
23:42:56 <ais523> alise: canonically, they don't mate in that situation
23:42:58 <ais523> although I have no idea why
23:43:14 <Phantom_Hoover> It comes down to the fact that Lazy K is non-strict, so you have no guarantee in which order IO will be performed.
23:43:15 <alise> ais523: also question: what if a Ditto becomes pregnant while female, then reverts to genderless form?
23:43:16 <Vorpal> alise couldn't dittos do both?
23:43:22 <alise> ais523: where does the baby go? how does the baby get born?
23:43:32 <ais523> alise: pokemon reproduction happens /very/ quickly
23:43:37 <ais523> and as I said, they lay eggs
23:43:46 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, http://homepages.cwi.nl/~tromp/cl/lazy-k.html , look for "fall from grace".
23:43:48 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: um i thought it should work as long as lazy k is maximally lazy
23:43:51 <ais523> I've known one Pokémon to lay two eggs in the same minute before
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23:43:57 <ais523> (although the eggs take quite a bit longer to hatch)
23:44:05 <alise> ais523: ok, what if the ditto changes back before the egg has hatched, really quickly?
23:44:18 <ais523> well, you never get to see that bit
23:44:20 <ais523> so the canon is silent
23:44:36 <alise> form a wildly guessing theory, that's the thing fans are good for
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23:45:04 <Vorpal> just invoke rule 34 on dittos?
23:45:12 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: well yeah it's a problem if you don't assume lazy-k is maximally lazy, yes
23:45:23 <oerjan> but presumable it is, so you can get around it
23:45:29 <ais523> Vorpal: inducing rule 34 on Pokémon is completely pointles
23:45:37 <ais523> they're the world's best rule 34 example ever
23:45:40 <alise> like half the rule 34 out there is pokemon
23:45:57 <Vorpal> ais523, I realised that after I said it
23:46:02 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, yeah, you can get around it, but there are certain niggly cases which I can't think of how to deal with using the bind operator alone.
23:46:15 <ais523> so you could probably easily find ditto porn
23:46:18 <ais523> it just wouldn't be canon
23:46:27 <alise> ais523: confirmed, ditto porn exists
23:46:50 <alise> it sheds no light on this situation
23:46:50 <ais523> alise: it exist for every species that's been officially announced or even leaked unofficially, even if we don't know the details yet
23:47:01 <alise> i guess nobody is crazy enough to create ditto pregnancy porn
23:47:09 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: hm... i could imagine it would be a problem if you had some f such that a >>= f does not cause a to be looked at at all until it's too late...
23:47:54 <alise> http://thedailypos.org/content/coralmayhem/images/baddittobad.jpg <-- This Ditto is apparently just hugging, as it has no genitals.
23:48:09 <alise> ais523: also pertinent question from the same person: "Can dittos love?" XD
23:48:15 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: so you need to write your bind such that it forces a to be applied first
23:48:34 <ais523> alise: I don't think there's a really common shipping involving dittos
23:48:45 <ais523> although you get all sorts of that sort of thing at the fringe
23:48:52 <ais523> it's certainly possible for Pokémon to love, though
23:49:04 <alise> ais523: they asked it because they were considering the sad situation of two dittos attracted to each other
23:49:11 <Phantom_Hoover> OTOH all of the IO functions give appending strings, so it's not as much of an issue in practice.
23:49:34 <ais523> alise: I'm getting slightly tearful just thinking about it
23:50:33 <alise> ais523: waitwait, dittos can breed with genderless pokemon?
23:50:50 <ais523> not /all/ genderless pokémon, admittedly
23:51:03 <ais523> and it produces genderless children, of the same time as the parent non-ditto
23:51:21 <alise> ais523: so, wait, can dittos transform into dittos?
23:51:38 <alise> because then a ditto could have sex with a ditto because dittos can transform into genderless pokemon to breed with genderless pokemon
23:51:39 <ais523> although it tends to be kind-of pointless
23:51:45 <alise> ergo if two dittos transform into a ditto, they can reproduce
23:51:46 <ais523> alise: as I said, not all genderless pokemon
23:52:04 <ais523> not all gendered pokémon too, fwiw; e.g. ditto+latias does nothing
23:52:24 <ais523> because crosses are more normal in this sort of hypothetical discussion
23:52:44 <alise> maybe dittos don't reproduce, baby dittos just spontaneously form
23:53:02 <ais523> / means something slightly different
23:53:10 <alise> hmm, it'd be specific members of a species
23:53:22 <ais523> I don't read that sort of fiction ;)
23:53:40 <ais523> although I bet you could find an expert on Pokémon slashfiction if you tried
23:53:43 <alise> That ;) turned it from a regular ais523 statement to something entirely more creepy for some reason I can't put my finger on.
23:53:59 <ais523> alise: because I never use that particular smiley
23:54:05 <ais523> it was actually a typo for :)
23:54:17 <alise> actually it's more because the ;) always seems vaguely sexual to me
23:54:21 <ais523> which I do use occasionally, for ironic reasons of my own
23:54:33 <alise> wow, there's a disc that can contain 1 to 10 TiB
23:54:35 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_Versatile_Disc
23:54:47 <pikhq> Gregor-W: *Anyways*. The maximum volume in air is 194 dB. 24-bit audio gets up to 146 dB. And 32-bit audio gets up to 194 dB.
23:54:59 <alise> pikhq: what about SPACE MUSIC
23:55:02 <pikhq> Gregor-W: So clearly, 32-bit audio is the maximum audio bit rate that makes any sense at all.
23:56:04 <pikhq> Though even that makes only some sense; 130 dB is where the sound starts *directly causing pain*.
23:56:50 <Gregor-W> Below that, it only causes pain indirectly by being shitty music.
23:57:52 <pikhq> 194 dB will cause pain to pretty much everything with the ability to feel pain.
23:58:20 <pikhq> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ab/Trinity_explosion_film_strip.jpg A photo of 194 dB sound.
23:58:30 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: note that if the fundamental thing you do with a >>= f is to look at its _output_ (which it should be) then a _is_ always considered first. so what you want to ensure i think is that whenever you look at the output of a primitive action, it's input effect is guaranteed to be produced first. if this is true for primitive actions i think it will work for composed ones
23:59:36 <oerjan> for bind, you need to ensure that the output part of a can be extracted from a >>= f without looking at f.
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00:00:10 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, well, the problem comes down to do { putChar 'a' ; c <- getChar ; putChar 'b' ; putChar c }
00:00:47 <Phantom_Hoover> I have tested this, and by default it prints "ab", and then reads the character and prints it.
00:00:56 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: getChar needs to make its (empty) output strict in its input
00:02:33 <oerjan> getChar i = case i of (c:rest) -> (rest, id, c) | otherwise = error something
00:03:39 <oerjan> the important part there is that getting to the id _must_ force looking at i strictly
00:04:03 <oerjan> i.e. it does a strict match, not a lazy one
00:04:43 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, yes; my experimentation has shown that trivial arithmetic identities work for that.
00:05:38 <oerjan> in fact it might have to force looking at c, depending on whether lazy k's input _spine_ forces any input or not
00:06:13 <oerjan> (the spine being the cons cells but not their cars, in essence)
00:08:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Presumably because bind can't look at what's in the first argument.
00:08:21 <oerjan> and are you sure that looking at the output of a >>= f looks at the output of a first?
00:08:23 <alise> oerjan: quick, simplify sum(ceil(log a_i)) - ceil(sum(log a_i))
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00:09:09 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: the _output_ part from a >>= f can look at the first argument, is what i've been saying
00:10:05 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, http://pastebin.com/BE3FAMVD is the current definition of bind; critique away.
00:10:12 <oerjan> because it is of the form ao . fo, and when you apply that laziness causes you to look at ao first
00:12:25 <alise> oerjan: But it's interestiiing!
00:12:28 <Phantom_Hoover> I cannot make myself believe that London is the capital of the UK.
00:12:47 <Gregor-W> Phantom_Hoover: As opposed to?
00:13:11 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: the (o xout ...) should _not_ be inside an invocation of f
00:13:40 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: it isn't, it's the capital of england
00:13:50 <alise> well ok the uk too
00:13:52 <alise> but primarily england!
00:14:26 <alise> I meant that it was primarily the capital of England!
00:14:36 <alise> I was just trying to reassure you, sheesh.
00:15:12 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, the feeling's kind of gone, though I still think "London? What a weird name" involuntarily.
00:16:27 <alise> oerjan: I'm surprised the value of (sum(ceil(log a_i)) - ceil(sum(log a_i))) isn't a common thing, actually.
00:16:38 <oerjan> alise: hm well it should be possible to write a_i = base^n * c_i where 1 < c_i <= base and then i think replacing a_i by c_i gives the same result
00:16:50 <alise> oerjan: It's how more efficient the optimal representation of a structure is vs. the easy representation.
00:16:55 <alise> (Consider base-2.)
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00:17:17 <oerjan> i.e. multiplying an a_i with a power of the base does not change the result
00:17:53 <alise> oerjan: does that actually help? :D
00:18:15 <oerjan> and then the first sum is just the number of the a_i's
00:18:27 <oerjan> (all those ceilings are 1)
00:19:13 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, wait, where should I be concatenating the output lists for bind?
00:19:31 <alise> oerjan: does this actually simplify anything though?
00:19:40 -!- Sgeo has joined.
00:19:42 <alise> -- let's call the length of a n --
00:19:53 <Sgeo> Router likes crapping on me
00:20:11 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: everyone knows london is a small town on Mars, near the capital of O'Wobble
00:20:42 <alise> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0011E5RNO/
00:20:45 <alise> Function generator!
00:22:23 <Sgeo> My sound also likes crapping on me
00:22:37 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: yes, however your representation must be such that when looking at (o xout fout), evaluation of fout (i.e. essentially application of f) is not triggered by looking at the xout part
00:22:59 <oerjan> well lists or functions, i don't think that matters for this issue
00:24:38 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: any properly lazy language can do that >:)
00:25:41 <Sgeo> Of course it takes two minutes for the window with shutdown options to appear
00:25:44 <Sgeo> Why shouldn't it?
00:25:48 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, well, the result of a bind has to be a triple which includes the concatenated output, yes?
00:26:17 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: yes, but there is no reason why returning that triple should require evaluating all the parts of it
00:27:54 <oerjan> hm i guess the trouble here is how to make a lazy triple of stuff from the corresponding strict version
00:28:21 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, how does the current implementation require evaluation of the entire triple?
00:28:22 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Suggestion: A completely new .XCompose that doesn't include the default ones, since they suck.
00:29:05 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I was just suggesting it randomly.
00:29:21 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: well it requires the application of _f_ just to look at the xout part, which is the real problem.
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00:29:54 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, but altogether it has a bunch of crappy bindings, and it'd be far better to just do it again ourselves.
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00:30:55 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, I stuck the tuple unpacking in the application to f because the alternative was pretty ugly.
00:31:24 <oerjan> oh you have a triple function, hm
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00:33:03 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Suggestion: MetaCompose, a program for spitting out compose files!
00:33:05 -!- augur has joined.
00:33:32 <alise> <Multi_key> <"> <a> : "ä"
00:33:54 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: you probably need to generate the triple from f as a lazy variable, then construct the final triple from that
00:34:03 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I'm thinking it could run it through some type of templating thing.
00:34:50 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Wait, how is iterating more helpful?
00:35:45 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: It'd only be helpful if you had a diaeresise() function, which would be just as hard as manually listing them.
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00:37:38 * oerjan declares the logs too long today
00:39:20 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Hmm, how could space be represented?
00:39:28 <alise> Or maybe the separator should be tab.
00:40:38 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, changed bind to http://pastebin.com/LwX0A14t , no change in behaviour.
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00:41:01 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Although that's a bit confusing.
00:42:41 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: hm i don't know why that wouldn't work
00:42:47 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Perhaps.
00:43:14 <oerjan> although you might want f xv xin to be shared, that shouldn't have anything to do with this problem...
00:43:33 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: but what about <"> <space>? :D
00:45:04 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Vomit.
00:45:13 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: good luck debugging this >:(
00:45:34 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Vomitochondria.
00:45:54 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, no, because only backslash and space need escaping.
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00:58:53 <Gregor> nooga should be online: http://garfieldminusgarfield.net/post/948073732
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01:08:09 <Gregor> I am an eccentric robot who longs to be human.
01:08:38 <Gregor> (As indicated in a Facebook comment I made on Aug. 7 :P)
01:18:16 <Sgeo> Ok, "Time" was as awesome as I thought it'd be
01:32:57 <alise> http://esolangs.org/wiki/01
01:34:56 * Sgeo vaguely finds Warrigal on Reddit
01:36:17 <Warrigal> Did you find a comment by uorygl on Reddit?
01:38:54 <alise> Someone write an assembler for ByteByteJump. >_>
01:39:53 <Sgeo> Your two most recent non-submissions
01:41:30 <alise> Gregor: Link me to your munger thing that spits out an image, not that silly web interface, plz
01:41:54 <Gregor> alise: http://codu.org/imgs/dinosaurComic.php
01:42:08 <alise> Gregor: What are the paramateroodlies?
01:42:19 <Gregor> Documentation in http://codu.org/imgs/dinosaurComic.phps
01:42:38 <Gregor> (Source code = documentation)
01:43:25 <alise> Fatal error: Maximum execution time of 30 seconds exceeded in /var/www/imgs/dinosaurComic.php on line 171
01:43:43 <Gregor> Hmmm, it appears to be borkleborked.
01:43:49 <Gregor> I don't care to fix it right now X-P
01:43:56 <alise> But this is IMPORTANT!
01:44:01 <alise> It will be the best lonelydino submission EVER.
01:44:09 <alise> And yes, I need that script to do it.
01:44:37 <alise> Gregor: It works, just slowly.
01:44:53 <alise> Gregor: Yo yo your IDs totally map incorrectly
01:44:56 <Gregor> Damn, why is it being slow ...
01:45:05 <alise> Unless ?comics= doesn't mean the strip IDs in the URLs???
01:45:07 <Gregor> My IDs map correctly, just not to the IDs at qwantz.com/?here
01:45:20 <Gregor> The strip IDs are as mentioned in the filename, not the URL.
01:45:47 <alise> And ... hypothetically ... if these strips were not numbered, but named?
01:46:23 <Gregor> Then I would need to adjust the script to handle them, but since they're probably not the right size and/or don't have the right configuration to work anyway, it's sort of a whocaresish situation.
01:46:38 <Warrigal> Sgeo: do you read /r/atheism regularly?
01:46:51 <Sgeo> It's on my frontpage
01:46:55 <alise> Gregor: But dammit, I could submit a comic including "panels" of http://www.qwantz.com/comics/smbc.gif!
01:47:05 <alise> And that other self-drawn guest comic of late!
01:47:09 <alise> And still claim it only has the T-Rex panels in!
01:47:16 <alise> Thus creating the weirdest, most cut-off T-Rex is Lonely strip ever!
01:47:21 <alise> I call it... POSTMODERNISM.
01:47:42 <alise> I hate you and die.
01:48:06 <alise> http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=1772 also
01:48:24 <alise> And http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=1771
01:48:52 <Gregor> Heh, I see what the issue is X-D
01:48:57 <alise> And http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=1771
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01:49:07 <Gregor> The guest comics were confusing my "last-comic-value" calculator.
01:49:23 <alise> And http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=1769 (<3 this one)
01:49:45 <Warrigal> Sgeo: do you find it valuable in any way, or just entertaining?
01:49:47 <alise> AND http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=1768
01:49:54 <Gregor> http://codu.org/imgs/dinosaurComic.php E_WORKSAGAIN
01:50:12 <alise> Worst error message ever.
01:50:32 <alise> the feared Warrigal inquisition!
01:50:52 <alise> Gregor: http://codu.org/imgs/dinosaurComic.php?strip=true&comics=samandfuzzy&panels=1,2,3,4,5 WHAT IS IT THAT IS GOING ON HERE
01:51:22 <alise> ALSO http://www.qwantz.com/comics/badmachinery.png
01:51:24 <alise> Erm http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=1767
01:51:41 <Gregor> alise: If you munge it manually, and I like it (doubtful), I can still put it up :P
01:52:21 <alise> Gregor: Do you like glitch music?
01:52:37 <Gregor> ... no? What's "glitch music"
01:52:39 <alise> If so, you will LOVE my not-strictly-only-T-Rex T-Rex-panels-only cut-off-and-clipped T-REX IS LONELY comic production!
01:52:46 <alise> Gregor: Imagine a bunch of audial glitches.
01:52:50 <alise> Repeat for minutes.
01:52:52 <alise> That is glitch music.
01:53:55 <alise> Gregor: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Glitch.ogg
01:53:58 <alise> Gregor: glitch music
01:54:26 <alise> a lot of it is ... much more glitchy than that
01:57:25 <Sgeo> Maybe I should turn my A/C on at some point
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02:02:47 <Sgeo> Ugh, with Chrome 6, I can barely tell the difference between an incognito window and a regular one
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02:03:09 <Sgeo> Color difference is too subtle. Guess I have to look for the shady guy in glasses
02:03:24 <zzo38> Sgeo: Can you change the colors?
02:04:27 <Sgeo> I don't know how, nor do I care to bother >.
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02:20:11 <alise> pikhq: Album ReplayGain: awesome thing, or most awesome thing?
02:21:13 <pikhq> alise: Reasonably awesome.
02:21:24 <alise> pikhq: INSUFFICIENT ENTHUSIASM.
02:21:40 <pikhq> alise: Now what's *awesome* is albums that actually have dynamic range.
02:21:52 <pikhq> Fuck the loudness war.
02:22:28 <alise> pikhq: And album ReplayGain retains dynamic range in albums that have it.
02:23:00 <alise> I have one album that has something like no dynamic range at all, but it's intentional.
02:24:23 <pikhq> It is royally fucked up that we've got about 90 dB of dynamic range and maybe 10 dB are used.
02:24:57 <alise> I don't mind the lack of dynamic range when it's intentional, though.
02:25:02 <alise> But in most cases, it's not, it's just shitty mixing.
02:25:36 <pikhq> I'm complaining about shitty mixing.
02:26:01 <pikhq> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/48/GiveItAwayLoudnessComparison.png Not that I care about this song, but this is an atrocity.
02:26:20 <pikhq> (1991 vs. 2003 mastering of "Give It Away" by "Red Hot Chili Peppers")
02:26:25 <alise> That last version must sound truly, truly awful.
02:26:32 <alise> It's clipping ... constantly ...
02:27:19 <pikhq> Yes, the song is made of clip.
02:46:01 <alise> pikhq: Yes, FLAC, that wonderful thing that you can't tell from MP3 but still makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside!
02:46:17 <pikhq> alise: I can hear MP3 artifacts, mostly on percussion.
02:46:17 <alise> The annexation of your disk space feels so nice. <3
02:46:29 <alise> pikhq: Not with lame -V2 --joint-stereo, you can't.
02:46:33 <alise> (Don't argue. You're wrong.)
02:46:40 <pikhq> Yes, but we're not dealing with well-encoded MP3s here.
02:46:55 <pikhq> Random, pirated ones. FLAC is the only way to get reasonable audio out of that.
02:47:18 <pikhq> Also, I like being able to transcode to arbitrary formats...
02:47:46 <pikhq> If a device can handle AAC or Ogg, not just MP3, it's damned well getting the smaller-but-better files.
02:48:24 <alise> If a device can handle AAC, Ogg or MP3, it damned well should be getting the smaller-but-better files anyway!
02:49:32 <pikhq> And I would like to be able to instantly switch to some magical, fairy-dust "30kbps gets you transparency" format in the future for devices without terabytes to work with. :P
02:50:41 <pikhq> But yes, a well-encoded MP3 sounds quite good. (though 320kbps ones make me want to kill someone, anyways)
02:52:02 <Gregor> http://codu.org/music/ OK, it's rough, but I've updated my music page.
02:52:08 <Gregor> The menus are autogen'd :)
02:53:02 <pikhq> Gregor: Needs moar FLAC
02:53:21 <Gregor> pikhq: Before I didn't even MENTION the FLAC files, now they're linked, stop complaining :P
02:53:52 <pikhq> Gregor: My phone, sadly, does not yet play Ogg.
02:53:58 <pikhq> Though oddly, it has *libogg* on it.
02:54:07 <Gregor> Wait, I thought you had an Android phone?
02:54:22 <Gregor> You have that shitty piece of shit.
02:54:29 <pikhq> Need to write a decent audio player for it.
02:54:30 <Gregor> Enjoy the MP3s then :P
02:55:02 <pikhq> And by "audio player" I mean "GUI"
02:55:38 <pikhq> Cause there isn't much actual porting needed. Just ARM Linux with a retarded UI.
02:56:08 <pikhq> (who the hell makes a UI to primarily run Javascript?)
02:56:21 <Gregor> Google. Except, incredibly, NOT Google.
02:56:33 <Gregor> Although it's totally something Google would do (*cough* ChromeOS *cough*)
02:56:44 <alise> Gregor: Your little link-menus are waay too big.
02:56:45 <pikhq> Yeah, well, that's webOS.
02:56:48 <alise> Like chunkiness personified.
02:57:01 <pikhq> Though thankfully you can do UIs without Javascript.
02:57:12 <Gregor> alise: Yeah, they are ...
02:57:16 <pikhq> In which case it's SDL with some added functions.
02:57:30 <alise> Gregor: Also, it's not terribly obvious which one is hovering -- might I suggest a background darken, rather than a border change?
02:58:30 <Gregor> alise: OK, just fixed that (locally) ... not sure where in this convoluted mess of CSS the size issue is right now :P
02:59:42 <alise> [ehird@dinky ~]$ mpc volume
02:59:43 <alise> volume:4294967295%
03:01:33 <Gregor> Made menus smaller and flashier.
03:01:43 <pikhq> alise: Loudness war FTW?
03:01:55 <alise> pikhq: No... that's just MPD being crazy as fuck.
03:02:26 <alise> Gregor: List "Source" under "Sheet music", methinks.
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03:03:38 <Gregor> alise: Where is "source" not under "sheet music"?
03:04:04 <Gregor> Yeah, that's screwy but it's just a modicum more complicated than I'm willing to fix (my generator was not set up for that :P)
03:04:34 <alise> hg clone http://www.red-bean.com/decklin/njiiri.git
03:05:10 <Gregor> With the proper plugin, that still works :P
03:14:46 <Sgeo> What if time travel in the Stargate Verse, except for "1969", uses the Sam Hughes Ed stories model of time travel?
03:14:54 <alise> Gregor: What kind of a plugin is that?
03:15:02 <alise> Sgeo: You mean the obvious model?
03:15:58 <Sgeo> The show implies that when something goes back in time, it changes things and that the original ceases to exist, or something, but what if it doesn't?
03:16:28 <alise> Then NO IMPLICATIONS WHATSOEVER.
03:18:42 <alise> Does anyone here use MPD?
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03:20:18 <Sgeo> alise, it means the people in the sterilized people of 2010 are still sterilized
03:20:40 <Sgeo> And that ... well, no real implications for the SGA time travel ep, I guess
03:20:48 <alise> Is that an SGU spoiler?
03:21:19 <Sgeo> Just an SG-1 spoiler
03:21:30 <alise> Yeah, I don't care about SG-1's ongoing plotlines. Because it has none.
03:21:58 <cpressey> How dare you insult that show I don't care about
03:21:59 <Sgeo> None in the sense of "SG-1 has been cancelled", or as in some slur against SG-1?
03:22:11 <alise> No slur. It's just very episode-oriented.
03:22:21 <alise> So you can never really spoil much more than an episode.
03:23:07 <Sgeo> That's like saying "Carson dies" isn't an SGA spoiler
03:23:20 <alise> Have I ever mentioned you should stick your head in a vat of lye?
03:23:25 <Sgeo> Major events do happen occasionally in SG-1
03:23:36 <alise> (note: I don't care about SGA, but if I did, I would hate your guts right now.)
03:24:18 <Sgeo> alise, I kind of assumed that if you cared about SGA, you'd have seen all the episodes
03:26:36 <cpressey> Vorpal: is this a permanent new identity for you, AnMaster?
03:26:44 <alise> "American-Canadian military science fiction television franchise Stargate"
03:29:06 <Sgeo> The Googles! They do something!
03:32:56 <alise> *sigh* why is this shitty
03:33:52 <alise> Music Player Daemon, it's so almost good.
03:33:52 <cpressey> Maybe I can tell you why it is shitty (hint: I cannot)
03:34:13 <alise> All I want is ... the ability to use the entire library as a playlist.
03:34:31 <alise> I cannot figure out how to achieve this.
03:41:25 -!- mutoga has quit (Quit: :) ♪ © ¿ !~§¤[1;21] 0.6+8*9X²2¨@#|/[_.-{3,4°5^5"'€&6,55957(FR)<7%0=1=0%6>?&£`"5^5°4,3}-._]\|#@¨2²X9*8+7.0 [12;2]¤§~¡ ? 12±¾ ® ♪ (:).
03:41:44 <cpressey> ARIBAS is an interactive interpreter suitable for big integer
03:41:44 <cpressey> arithmetic and multiprecision floating point arithmetic.
03:41:44 <cpressey> It has a syntax similar to Pascal or Modula-2, but contains also
03:41:46 <cpressey> features from other programming languages like C, Lisp, Oberon.
03:42:37 <cpressey> also, it is probably not an amusingly bad as R.
03:43:45 <cpressey> (bad = bad for general programming)
03:45:15 <cpressey> And R is better known (there was a New York Times article about it!) So I will probably implement Thue in R.
03:45:32 <Sgeo> Is Thue turing-complete?
03:45:44 <Sgeo> So therefore R is.
03:45:59 <Sgeo> Or cpressey seeks to do the impossible]
03:46:10 <alise> Thue[deterministic] is TC, too.
03:54:02 <cpressey> Of course cpressey seeks to do the impossible, but not THAT impossible
03:55:55 <cpressey> Right now my level of "impossible" is "get Rosegarden to actually play the notes I entered"
03:56:17 <alise> cpressey: gregor says you're doin it ron
03:56:37 <cpressey> Yeah, not surprising. I guess I should checky the loggy
03:56:59 <cpressey> Geh. How do I scroll back in irssi? No, I should goodle this
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03:57:34 <alise> wait, maybe you already saw it.
03:57:39 <alise> 12:53:12 <Gregor-W> Y'know, I would answer cpressey's questions, but he's not online :P
03:57:39 <alise> 12:53:19 <Gregor-W> If he's asking that question, then he's doing it all wrong :P
03:57:39 <alise> 12:53:21 <Phantom_Hatter> Gregor-W, what questions?
03:57:39 <alise> 12:53:36 <Gregor-W> w.r.t. making Rosegarden talk to fluidsynth.
03:58:41 <cpressey> Useful! *and* shift+PgUp does nuzzingk
04:01:52 <oerjan> shift+PgUp instead scrolls up in the PuTTY scrollback
04:02:01 <cpressey> I was expecting it to be some horrible key combo
04:02:45 <cpressey> I re-give up on Rosegarden until I see Gregor again, because no advice I've seen makes sense
04:03:08 <zzo38> I added a metamacro command in Enhanced CWEB to retrieve the current section number.
04:04:40 <oerjan> cpressey: you can rebind keys to your heart's content anyhow (i vaguely recall i rebound Home and End to go top and bottom of scrollback instead of beginning/end of line)
04:07:32 * Sgeo is hiccupping (and NOT drunk. I don't know if *hic* applies to non-drunk hiccups, or if *hic* in the context of drunkenness isn't actually a hiccup in any sense)
04:07:49 <alise> NOT drunk with a capital N-O-T
04:08:07 <oerjan> Nearly Overdosed Totally
04:09:38 <cpressey> ftp://ftp.mathematik.uni-muenchen.de/pub/forster/aribas/examples/queens.ari <-- OK, so ARIBAS is basically Pascal with bigints. Big whee
04:10:25 <cpressey> and bigfloats and a bunch of built in MathSnazziness
04:11:39 <oerjan> var X : Humongous Integer;
04:17:20 <cpressey> It occured to me a while ago that there are so many buildings on this planet, even if I was somehow able to sleep in a different building every night, there is no way I would be able to sleep in all of them.
04:21:16 <cpressey> Deep in a stupid way. My speciality.
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04:21:37 <alise> I feel sick; blargh.
04:25:31 <pikhq> cpressey: Unless you invent immortality.
04:25:49 <alise> And stop the building and destruction of all buildings.
04:25:58 <alise> And god I am so fucking tired and sick feeling and bed soon
04:26:38 <cpressey> "Arthur Dent? Arthur Phillip Dent? You are a complete git..."
04:26:59 <alise> What a contextless quotation.
04:27:10 <alise> Infinitely Prolonged.
04:27:15 <alise> cpressey: in a sec, in a sec
04:30:03 <cpressey> Or I'll start posting links with a nonzero risk of making you feel more ill
04:31:26 <alise> oerjan: THAT MAKES NO SENSE
04:31:51 <alise> i need to burp or i will vomit
04:31:53 <oerjan> you think i'm treating you too strictly?
04:37:51 <cpressey> http://www.falconpl.org/index.ftd?page_id=about
04:38:15 <cpressey> "[...] and also to help integrate other UNIX (text) processors."
04:38:37 <cpressey> The person behind this lives in a different world than I.
04:38:44 <alise> /create a functional "absolute" through the math sqr(x) operation
04:38:44 <alise> func_abs = .[ cascade .[ // this is the functional sequence operator
04:38:44 <alise> sqr // our square argument
04:38:44 <alise> radix_of( 2 ).extract // get the extract method of an instance of square root.
04:38:51 <alise> what is that even fucking
04:38:57 <alise> this language sucks
04:44:11 <cpressey> http://www.falconpl.org/index.ftd?page_id=facts has a comparison table where, under "Functional programming", only Falcon has a "yes"; Python, Perl, Lua, Javascript are all "no". Justification further down the page, tho I cannot make heads or tails of it.
04:44:33 <cpressey> Sorry, not Javascript -- Ruby.
04:44:57 <alise> this language is shit
04:48:33 <alise> the language should be called Bear Wrestling
04:48:36 <alise> then it would be kick-ass
04:48:49 <alise> [cpressey adds Bear Wrestling to his list of esolang names to use]
04:49:15 <cpressey> Indeed, it is now in my "translation table."
04:49:25 <cpressey> Ruby? MatzLisp. Falcon? Bear Wrestling.
04:49:44 <cpressey> There seems to be a "Bear" theme running through the really awful ones.
04:52:15 <oerjan> even the unbearable ones?
04:53:54 <cpressey> "I call Starfish the MapReduce of Ruby because they both do the same task: screw." -- http://tech.rufy.com/2006/08/starfish-is-mapreduce-for-ruby.html
04:54:30 <cpressey> Yes, I am trying to make alise even sicker so she will go to bed.
04:54:49 <alise> I call Starfish the Rabbit because they both do the same thing: screw.
04:55:18 <Sgeo> Tabular programming?
04:56:06 <Sgeo> Is a small library size supposed to be a _good_ thing?
04:57:19 <cpressey> Apparently not, for that, at least -- "This is our weak point; this is young project [...]"
04:58:45 <alise> Faaargilous and the going-to-beds
04:58:47 <cpressey> Oh! And of course Falcon is dual licensed, GPL/FPLL! And guess what FPLL stands for!
04:59:05 <alise> falcon public laconic license
04:59:12 <alise> falcon public locomotive license
04:59:15 <alise> falcon public lactating license
04:59:20 <alise> falcon public loser's license
04:59:48 <Sgeo> What's so bad about this language? Although I guess I should look at a sample
05:00:16 <alise> suddenly, sgeo finds a new favourite language
05:00:55 <Sgeo> I still have yet to see a code sample
05:01:02 <alise> let us keep it that way let me bed myself
05:01:36 <alise> definitely arloo toolus
05:01:39 <Sgeo> That sounds wrong
05:02:18 <alise> yes, well, the only way i could bed myself in that sense involves time travel or cloning
05:02:26 <alise> and i hereby support any fantasies which involve time travel or cloning
05:02:26 <oerjan> cpressey: YOU HAVE DOOMED US ALL
05:04:08 <oerjan> (i saw some discussion about that in reference to portal somewhere)
05:04:28 <Sgeo> Would kind of need to be in a cramped area, wouldn't it?
05:05:02 <oerjan> hm, i think there was a suggestion that portal portals were completely unmovable precisely to prevent this :D
05:05:02 <alise> i'm pretty sure self-penetration with portals would be impossible, the portals would have to move
05:05:09 <alise> anyway uh im turning off irc now okay
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05:06:08 <Sgeo> Well, I've seen some basic code in the tutorial
05:06:15 <Sgeo> Nothing here that's really thrilling yet
05:06:36 <Sgeo> loop/end is a bit ugly
05:07:45 <Sgeo> enum seems uninspired
05:08:07 <Sgeo> But so far, these are not "This language is horrible" issues, just "This language doesn't turn me on and make me wet" issues
05:09:41 <Sgeo> The array stuff seems Pythonesque
05:10:15 <Sgeo> "To access the first or last element of an array, for example, in loops, arrayHead and arrayTail functions can be used. They retrieve and then remove the first or last element of the array."
05:10:24 <Sgeo> That seems... not useless, but poorly named
05:10:34 <Sgeo> So that they look useless, but they really change the array
05:11:25 <Sgeo> Well, there's a craptastic syntax called comma-less arrays
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05:11:39 <Sgeo> a2 = .[ 1 2 3 4 'a' 'b' var1 + var2 var3 * var4 .[x y z]]
05:11:45 <Sgeo> array = .[ somesym ,[1:2] ]
05:11:56 <Sgeo> The comma there's used to prevent it looking like somesym[1:2]
05:12:16 <Sgeo> This seems.. prone to programmer error, more so than baseline regular programming
05:13:20 <Sgeo> "Adding an item to a string causes the item to be converted to string and then concatenated."
05:13:25 <Sgeo> I guess it's not that strongly typed?
05:14:33 <Sgeo> "Contrary to strings, arrays and dictionaries, Lists are full-featured Falcon objects. "
05:15:01 <Sgeo> I took sleepiy pills
05:15:06 <Sgeo> I may fall asleep at any time
05:16:08 <oerjan> in that case, don't operate any heavy machinery
05:16:23 * Sgeo operates on oerjan
05:28:08 <zzo38> Has anyone published books licensed under the GNU GPL? How well does it work?
05:36:00 <zzo38> Would it be necessary to include a copy of the license in the appendix?
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06:59:04 <zzo38> Today I played Washizu mahjong at anime convention. Did you play mahjong and/or anime convention, today?
07:00:37 <pikhq> There was not an anime convention nearby, so no, I did not.
07:00:47 <pikhq> And I know not how to play mahjon.
07:01:04 <zzo38> Do you want to learn?
07:01:26 <pikhq> Not particularly, ATM.
07:02:19 <zzo38> Do you know if anyone has ever published books which are licensed under the GNU GPL?
07:04:13 <zzo38> Because, it is something I plan to do, "The ZZT Book". And then I want to send a free copy to Tim Sweeney and ask him to sell it, too. And include the CD or DVD with the source-codes and executables for many operating systems, in the back of the book.
07:04:45 <zzo38> Is this a good idea or is this bad idea, in your opinion?
07:05:08 <zzo38> The software is called "CZZT", however.
07:12:22 <MizardX> CD and DVD will increase the manufacturing costs. Better would be to have the content on some website, and use the URLs in the book.
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07:20:33 <zzo38> That is just in case you have no internet connection, you can order the copy with the CD or DVD included. But it could also have URLs, like "The source-codes is available at any of the following URLs: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/czzt/czzt-src.zip http://example.org/czzt/czzt-src.tar.gz ftp://example.org/czzt/czzt-src.0.1.tar.gz gopher://zzo38computer.cjb.net/5czzt/czzt-src.zip"
07:25:44 <zzo38> Although, the listing would include both the source for the current version and the URL that updates for the newest version automatic. It also requires the full text of the GNU GPL, written in the book, I think.
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07:39:00 <zzo38> The Most Ridiculous Patents: Snake Walker. Baby Bottom Art. Motorized Ice Cream Cone. Gerbil Shirt. Anti-Gravity Device.
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07:46:46 <zzo38> You see sound waves need a medium to travel in. If the air in this room was a vacuum, we would all be dead, but apart from that, we wouldn't be able to talk to each other.
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08:13:43 <augur> i think simple type checking is a case of cross serial dependencies
08:14:10 <augur> perhaps even more complex type checking
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12:24:09 <Vorpal> <cpressey> Vorpal: is this a permanent new identity for you, AnMaster? <-- perhaps
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13:57:21 <Vorpal> hm anyone know how to efficiently copy a single huge file over ethernet? scp doesn't nearly max out the capacity, and some simple tests shows that it isn't disk IO that is the bottleneck...
14:01:21 <fizzie> How about netcat? If you don't mind the encryption.
14:01:35 <fizzie> Or lack of it, anyway.
14:02:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, well, network is trusted yeah
14:02:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, will it create a sparse file, I strongly suspect that it may contain quite a few zero blocks... it's a disk image
14:02:59 <fizzie> I don't think it will, by default.
14:03:47 <fizzie> If you don't mind temporary space-wastage, you can just netcat it, and then "cp --sparse=always image.tmp image" it to make the holes.
14:04:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, I do mind that, since the target system doesn't have space for two copies :P
14:04:17 <Vorpal> ah rsync might be useful here, it seems to have sparse-stuff
14:04:25 <Vorpal> and I can do rsync without ssh here...
14:06:45 <fizzie> Yes, rsync should do sparsity right.
14:07:34 * Vorpal goes to set up rsync server on one side
14:07:46 <fizzie> It's a bit shame that dd doesn't have a "conv=sparse" option; it could do a bit of lookahead, and on large sequences of zeros, start counting them and then seek forward in the output file.
14:09:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, it is also annoying that you have to copy a file to make it sparse. As in, you can't make it sparse in place
14:11:23 <fizzie> A limitation of the userland-kernel API, I'd guess. You can only make sparse files by skipping over bytes with lseek and never writing there; there's no "hey, here's a block of zeroes, disappear them" thing. (And I guess it wouldn't be too practical to have the system try to find all zero-writes and sparsify them.)
14:12:21 <fizzie> They could've added some sort of posix_fsparsify thing, since there's fallocate and fadvise and maybe other "advanced" things, too.
14:13:46 <fizzie> Oh, there's even a posix_madvise function that can tell the system if you're going to access *memory* in a sequential or random fashion, or tell it you're going to need some region in the near future. (Not that it necessarily does anything on any system, but it exists.)
14:16:02 <Vorpal> presumably useful for mmaped files
14:19:03 <fizzie> Also seems that since 2.6.17 there's actually been a splice(2) syscall, to move data from one fd to another with as little copying as possible. (Since sendfile is limited to "from mmap-capable file to a socket" scenarios.)
14:20:11 <fizzie> Oh, but splice needs one of them to be a pipe. Heh.
14:21:19 <fizzie> It's also a bit funny how they try to keep syscall numbering backwards-compatible, resulting in:
14:21:23 <fizzie> fis@eris:~$ grep uname /usr/include/asm/unistd_32.h
14:21:23 <fizzie> #define __NR_oldolduname 59
14:21:23 <fizzie> #define __NR_olduname 109
14:21:23 <fizzie> #define __NR_uname 122
14:21:52 <fizzie> Presumably after the next incompatible uname change, 59 will be oldoldolduname.
14:21:57 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, so they needed to keep those the same, but read() and write() could be changed?
14:22:39 <fizzie> Have they made some incompetible changes to read/write, then?
14:23:47 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, oh, I thought you meant the x86-64 syscall numbers.
14:24:40 <fizzie> Oh, that. Well, I don't think there's any need to keep those in sync. But apparently they want programs/libs that still use the oldolduname to work properly.
14:25:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, it depends on how you break stuff though
14:25:45 <fizzie> It *was* a bit strange that "exit" had the prominent number 1 in 32-bit-land.
14:26:03 <Vorpal> exit is quite an important call
14:26:21 <fizzie> I don't know, you only call it once, after all. :p
14:26:29 <fizzie> (Per process, that is.)
14:29:30 <fizzie> It is nice that you can load it into eax in just three bytes (xor+inc) instead of five (mov with 32-bit immediate).
14:30:02 <fizzie> I've sometimes wondered why there isn't a shorter "load a small number into a full 32-bit register" operation.
14:30:38 <fizzie> There's the sign-extending and zero-extending movsx/movzx, but those only load from memory.
14:31:58 <fizzie> (Okay, so it's four bytes with xor+mov into al, but still.)
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15:22:05 <alise> http://i.imgur.com/uqRyI.jpg
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15:24:43 <Mathnerd314> maybe it should just give directions to the nearest airport
15:24:56 <alise> i like how it just goes in a straight line
15:26:00 <alise> that's from japan btw in case it wasn't clear
15:26:37 <alise> the kayaking part is difficult.
15:26:42 <alise> esp. keeping your car
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16:57:57 <alise> "Nordic / Scandinavian Redditors -- Do You Think Your Countries Are As Awesome As They Are Often Portrayed On Reddit?" Hellooooo /r/circlejerk
16:58:47 <oerjan> well if that _was_ from /r/circlejerk it would be appropriate there, surely
17:00:01 <alise> it wasn't - but it should have been there
17:00:18 <alise> as should, uh, a vast majority of the front page; why isn't there a classy timewaster any more?
17:00:42 <oerjan> "No we're not that awesome, although the rest of the world sucks even more"
17:01:39 <alise> i'd like to live in a nordic country but that's because (a) I don't like hot weather and (b) they have fast internet, as much as (c) better sociopolitical climate than the UK
17:03:01 <alise> Not hot hot summers.
17:03:06 <alise> Depends where you are.
17:03:22 <alise> iirc 26 degrees is considered a heatwave in Norway; wasn't it, oerjan?
17:03:46 <oerjan> well i don't know about the technical definition :D
17:03:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, the summers here can be experienced with a woolen jumper on.
17:04:11 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: not this summer
17:04:59 <alise> What gave you that impression?
17:05:09 <alise> Hexham is north-east.
17:05:40 <Phantom_Hoover> I have a terrible grasp of Scottish, Irish and Welsh geography as well.
17:05:49 <alise> I have a terrible grasp of [...] geography.
17:06:32 <alise> I thought you said Tazmania.
17:06:54 <augur> new warehouse 13 and eureka! :D :D :D
17:07:02 <alise> I forgot that New Zealand =/= Australia.
17:07:10 <alise> And that it's called Tasmania.
17:07:15 <alise> Worst. Thinko. Ever.
17:07:36 <augur> alise: well, its SORT of near new zealand
17:07:42 <alise> augur: Yeah. SORT of.
17:08:00 <Phantom_Hoover> In the same way that Canada is near the US, and Scotland is near England.
17:10:28 <oerjan> um not if it's tanzania you're talking about
17:10:45 <oerjan> (that's near madagascar, of course)
17:12:54 <alise> The A1 is INHABITED BY GNOMES
17:14:09 <alise> Also, the paper size.
17:14:24 <oerjan> well it should be big enough for a gnome
17:15:09 <alise> Invariably variable gnomes.
17:15:38 <alise> ANSWER ME THIS: Why do music daemons suck?
17:16:16 <alise> Wow, linking ffmpeg to libao is hideously difficult: http://nikolai.luthman.name/misc/queue.c
17:16:28 <alise> Almost enough to make me use libxine. ... almost.
17:16:30 <oerjan> alise: because they're actually succubi
17:16:37 <alise> Why isn't there a libmplayer?
17:16:46 <Sgeo> Xine is considered bad?
17:17:54 <oerjan> hell is near tasmania. at least, they have devils both places.
17:24:09 * oerjan sees no contradiction there
17:24:32 <oerjan> why can't they have professional software development near tasmania
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17:27:09 <Gregor> pikhq: You're right, wildly insufficient FLACitude.
17:27:23 <alise> Don't give me none of that flakitude.
17:27:24 <oerjan> well they're all outsourced _now_, of course
17:27:27 <Gregor> My alternate recording of Op. 11 has FLAC. I should rerecord Op. 10 to add FLAC too.
17:27:47 <Gregor> ALSO: OMG Hulu just made my day again
17:28:03 <Gregor> I'm watching Saturday morning cartoons (Rocky and Bullwinkle) on Saturday morning!
17:28:25 <oerjan> but before that outsourcing craze started, say a hundred years ago, i doubt you'd find it much outside hell
17:28:37 <oerjan> (near tasmania, as already established)
17:29:03 <alise> Note to self: xfce4-panel sucks.
17:30:17 <oerjan> as is well known, the native tasmanians were exterminated by the english invaders, so it's a bit hard to ask them now. well, i suppose you could find some remaining in hell, if you'd like to go there
17:30:19 <alise> Gregor: Okay; xfce4-panel sucks IF YOU'RE NOT USING ALL THE REST OF XFCE.
17:30:51 <Gregor> alise: OK, that I'll agree with :P
17:30:54 <Gregor> But XFCE is awesome :P
17:31:00 <alise> Want a nice little menu to start programs with? OOPS LOL YOU CAN ONLY CREATE A LAUNCHER WITH "SUB-LAUNCHER" SHIT, AND THAT MEANS YOUR LAUNCHER'S ICON AND NAME ARE INCLUDED IN THE MENU ITSELF FOR NO REAL REASON, MEANING YOU HAVE TO DEAL WITH SOME MENU ICON AND "PROGRAMS" AS YOUR LAST MENU ITEM EVEN THOUGH IT DOES NOTHING
17:31:33 <alise> Want to make the background something that doesn't glare for attention since it uses your regular GTK+ background colours? LOL HAVE FUN MODIFYING YOUR THEME FILE AND FINDING IT ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO CONFIGURE ALL THE COLOURS
17:31:59 <alise> Gregor: xfce may be awesome but pekwm is more awesomerest.
17:32:22 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: how the hell should i know? i said they're all exterminated.
17:32:49 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, so what software is written in hell these days?
17:33:16 <oerjan> lots of php and java, obviously
17:33:55 <Phantom_Hoover> So Google is obviously trying to muscle in on hell's territory, so Oracle are suing them.
17:34:31 <alise> WHY ISN'T THERE A LIBMPLAYER.
17:36:17 <Gregor> alise: There is, it's called FFMPEG :P
17:37:16 <alise> Gregor: Yeah, libavcodec can't actually output to an audio device; to do that, you need something like libao.
17:37:40 <alise> Gregor: Would you like to see the code sticking libavcodec and libao together?
17:37:40 <alise> Gregor: http://nikolai.luthman.name/misc/queue.c
17:37:51 <alise> NOW do you see why I want a libmplayer?
17:37:51 <Gregor> I would not like to see that.
17:37:59 <alise> Gregor: Protip: It's fucking ugly.
17:39:11 <alise> Oh, and I'd just use mpd, except it can't do something as fucking simple as "make a playlist out of the entire library and keep it updated".
17:39:32 <alise> I'd just use xmms2 except that all xmms2 clients are _shit_
17:40:49 <pikhq> libmplayer would be absolutely wonderful.
17:41:03 <pikhq> I'd write an SDL GUI for it and VOILA.
17:41:15 <pikhq> MY PHONE HAS HAD ITS SUCK REDUCED BY ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE
17:41:16 <alise> I'd write a GTK+ GUI for it because SDL sucks for interfaces :P
17:41:21 <alise> Oh, for your phone.
17:41:27 <alise> I suggest selling it and buying some other phone.
17:41:31 <alise> Say, anything but a Palm phone.
17:41:34 <pikhq> alise: I spent nothing on it.
17:41:38 <Vorpal> ... eh bash just abort()ed
17:41:57 <Vorpal> wait, no it was just strange formatting of glibc double free
17:42:03 <Vorpal> missing the stack trace
17:42:06 <pikhq> (it's a contract phone, but I don't pay the phone bill, so.)
17:42:49 <alise> pikhq: MPlayer_Context *ctx = mplayer_create_context(); mplayer_set_ao(ctx, MPLAYER_AO_OSS); mplayer_play_async(ctx, "foo.ogg");
17:43:43 <pikhq> alise: Also: the UI is actually quite nice on here.
17:43:51 <pikhq> Thank God they stopped using Palm OS.
17:44:23 <alise> pikhq: Yes, it's really nice until you notice it's hideously slow, then you try any other phone and your jaw drops.
17:44:45 <alise> jwz soldiered with the Pre, the Pixi's big brother, for months before finally giving up and /buying an iPhone/
17:45:02 <pikhq> ... So I'm tempted to port Android to it...
17:45:37 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Jamie Zawinski, Netscape programmer, XEmacs (Lucid Emacs) programmer, now nightclub owner, genius.
17:45:47 <alise> You should probably already know who he is.
17:46:00 <pikhq> Thought the screenname was familiar.
17:46:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Was he the one who said that solving a problem with regexes yielded two problems?
17:46:53 <pikhq> alise: Homebrew on the Palm makes it much more usable. First things first, replace the damned kernel.
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17:47:43 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: He's the one that quoted it from someone else and then everyone decided he said it.
17:48:11 <alise> Wow, jwz.org has been "redesigned" (it's now in a sans-serif font and the page width is smaller).
17:48:20 <alise> Also the hexdump on the front page gives you a headache because it scrolls.
17:48:29 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: he also popularised the "Worse is Better" essay.
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17:50:02 <pikhq> What's bizarro is that the Palm Pre ships underclocked by default...
17:50:35 <pikhq> alise: No, I mean: max CPU speed it'll run at is underclocked.
17:50:50 <alise> I think the original iPhone did that for BATTRAY.
17:51:01 <pikhq> It will only go "up" to 600 MHz, on a 1 GHz CPU...
17:51:56 <alise> The state of smartphones is rather dismal; the only acceptable ones are basically the high-end Android phones, and the iPhone -- ignoring the political bullshit, 4 still has a bunch of antenna issues and crap
17:52:02 <alise> And, of course, the political bullshit /matters/.
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17:52:41 <alise> I've just stuck with my original iPhone and it's been "fine".
17:54:14 <alise> The Galaxy S seems quite appealing; Gregor has one, I think.
17:54:36 <alise> Can I have a Moment, please?
17:54:42 <Gregor> I need my hardware keyboard.
17:54:51 <alise> Who makes the Moment?
17:54:53 <pikhq> What's appealing is an Eee in smartphone form.
17:55:01 <alise> pikhq: But the Eee is shit.
17:56:07 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Apple hates developers.
17:56:09 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: app store. closed source. Apple are fuckwits. etc.
17:56:18 <alise> the app store TOS is basically "1984 -- the programmer's edition!".
17:56:47 <pikhq> They seem to like making Ballmer seem reasonable when he chants "Developers developers developers".
17:57:08 <alise> Samsung Intercept, what an awesome phone name
17:57:27 <alise> "Droid X", "Droid 2", I detect a theme here.
17:58:00 <alise> Sooo, has any non-iPhone phone got a 960x640 IPS display yet?
17:58:04 <alise> No? Didn't think so ...
17:58:24 <alise> Come on, guys, just invest shit in your phones and you can make money :P
18:00:01 <pikhq> And love making bizarre decisions.
18:00:14 <pikhq> (Javascript. UI. Embedded device. WHY?)
18:00:32 <alise> Because it's WEB 7.4
18:00:48 <alise> ANYONE who knows Javascript and our insane custom system can write a terrible app! Anyone!
18:02:10 <alise> I broke an electronic typewriter in under one day.
18:03:21 <alise> Banshee is such a piece of shit.
18:03:28 <alise> "iTunes: The GNOME edition!"
18:04:15 <alise> So close just to using DeaDBeeF here.
18:06:03 <alise> Yes; for OSS-based systems, including OSSv4.
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18:06:12 <pikhq> It's also sound input.
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18:06:29 <alise> In older OSS versions -- before 4 -- only one program could write to /dev/dsp at a time, thus monopolising sound.
18:06:39 <alise> But in 4, anyone can write to it and it automatically gets sent to the mixer.
18:06:51 <pikhq> alise: This was only true for devices without hardware mixing.
18:06:55 <alise> So you can do "cat /dev/urandom >/dev/dsp" and have other sound running too and it Just Works.
18:07:06 <pikhq> Which everything had when OSS was popularised...
18:07:16 <alise> Yeah, but did anything configure it properly?
18:07:19 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later).
18:07:29 <pikhq> If there was hardware mixing then it "just worked".
18:07:50 <pikhq> It only got to be a problem when cards got cheaper.
18:08:05 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: You can cat WAVs there, though there's a blip of noise at the start when it tries to audioify the WAV header.
18:08:17 <alise> Catting MP3s and the like will just produce noise, obviously; it accepts raw PCM data.
18:08:17 -!- Gregor has quit (Quit: Leaving).
18:08:50 <pikhq> What's irritating is that ALSA's OSS emulation is still so retarded that writing to /dev/dsp monopolises sound.
18:10:16 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Try "sudo cat /dev/sd[abc...] >/dev/dsp".
18:10:29 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Why not?
18:10:43 <alise> The patterns can be very interesting; you can almost hear the disk structure.
18:10:45 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: So terminate it.
18:11:00 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: The drive headers sound quite thoroughly interesting at parts, though there are bits of silence.
18:11:09 <alise> Smaller drives are probably better; e.g. USB sticks.
18:11:18 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: You can also try specific partitions.
18:12:27 <Phantom_Hoover> It gives a rhythmic pulse for /home, after some noise at the start.
18:12:52 <alise> How do you cat a directory?
18:14:12 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: sudo cat /dev/mem >/dev/dsp
18:14:16 <alise> Yes, that does exactly what you think it does.
18:14:26 <alise> Fails after a bit though; "operation not permitted".
18:15:21 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: If you can spit out sine waves, you can generate tones to /dev/dsp.
18:15:30 <alise> pikhq: "Bad address".
18:15:51 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: There's Brainfuck programs that play audio.
18:16:12 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Whaa?
18:21:55 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: pipe this to /dev/dsp:
18:21:59 <alise> sys.stdout.write(chr(round(math.sin(i/10)*100) + 100))
18:22:03 <alise> cat | python >/dev/dsp
18:25:34 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: also:
18:25:35 <alise> sys.stdout.write(chr((i/3) % 256))
18:27:27 <alise> pikhq: How can I make mplayer -vo caca output to the tty, not a new window?
18:32:28 * alise says "fuck it" installs deadbeef
18:37:58 <alise> http://cdn.okcimg.com/blog/camera/SexAndSmartPhones.png Hmm.
18:38:15 <alise> http://cdn.okcimg.com/blog/camera/SexAndSmartPhonesByAge.png
18:43:22 <alise> ...and of course deadbeef is /also/ inadequate because it can't just update a playlist of a directory. sigh
18:47:04 -!- Gregor-P has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
18:47:20 -!- Gregor-P has joined.
18:47:39 <alise> I cannot believe how rubbish this software is. And I'm actually trying it, rather than just dismissing it! :p
18:51:19 <Phantom_Hoover> You know, Star Control II has a very Lovecraftian feel about it.
19:01:23 <alise> pikhq: I stand corrected -- Ex Falso has MusicBrainz integration.
19:02:10 <alise> pikhq: Via a plugin.
19:03:50 -!- jcp has joined.
19:05:20 <alise> pikhq: Thus allowing you to look up the tags of an album with MusicBrainz, tweak the result, then have it rename them properly and move them to your music folder, all in one UI.
19:05:59 * alise also notes that Quod Libet, of which Ex Falso is a subproject, appears to be the only reasonable graphical music program that exists on Linux.
19:07:02 <pikhq> Hmm. Gentoo packages Quod Libet, but not Ex Falso seperately.
19:08:34 <alise> It probably includes Ex Falso.
19:08:40 <alise> Quod Libet is a damn good program anyway, so no harm :P
19:09:05 <alise> pikhq: You may need to install a quodlibet-plugins type package, and possibly the Python MusicBrainz bindings, for it to appear in Ex Falso's plugin list.
19:09:30 * pikhq fetches quodlibet-plugins
19:09:40 <alise> http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=1228
19:10:27 <pikhq> Aaaaand Dbus error.
19:10:35 <alise> pikhq: It works perfectly fine without DBus.
19:10:38 <alise> It's just checking if DBus is there.
19:10:47 <alise> "Who would win in a fight: the Enterprise or the Millenium Falcon? And NO, the correct answer is not "the audience". The correct answer is that this scenario is ludicrous and impossible!" -- T-Rex
19:11:40 <pikhq> alise: No, I mean, it *crashes* because of an error with DBus.
19:11:45 <pikhq> ERROR:dbus.proxies:Introspect error on :1.0:/org/freedesktop/Hal/Manager: dbus.exceptions.DBusException: org.freedesktop.DBus.Error.AccessDenied: Rejected send message, 1 matched rules; type="method_call", sender=":1.42" (uid=1000 pid=18506 comm="/usr/bin/python2.6) interface="org.freedesktop.DBus.Introspectable" member="Introspect" error name="(unset)" requested_reply=0 destination=":1.0" (uid=0 pid=14778 comm="/usr/sbin/hald))
19:11:58 <alise> pikhq: I suggest disabling DBus.
19:12:24 <alise> pikhq: Seriously, that's some DBus/HAL bullshit, you'll never figure it out. Why do you have HAL?
19:12:35 <pikhq> I think it was enabled back from when I had KDE.
19:12:42 <pikhq> Now... No reason at all.
19:12:47 <alise> I suggest disabling HAL and then being happy.
19:14:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Don't disable HAL! He's just been given conflicting orders!
19:14:48 <alise> pikhq: After enabling the plugin and configuring it, right click files and select MusicBrainz lookup, btw.
19:15:28 <alise> pikhq: HOWSOEVER it appears that it doesn't use hashing or anything, just searching.
19:15:43 <alise> I am most thoroughly disappointed! Oh well, it's still good at everything that isn't MusicBrainz lookup.
19:17:48 <alise> "Embed cover images into tags" THIS HAS ALWAYS MADE ME SOMEWHAT UNEASY
19:19:41 <alise> pikhq: Picard does have the issue of an utterly inscrutable interface, however.
19:20:47 <alise> pikhq: Good lord, Picard tags excessively. "performer:electric guitar". "musicbrainz_so_many_damn_things". "barcode". "asin". "albumartistsort".
19:21:35 <alise> "Use folksonomy tags as genre" *groan*
19:23:46 <pikhq> alise: Yes, it tags a lot.
19:24:18 <alise> pikhq: Any way to ... make it more conservative?
19:26:29 <alise> pikhq: But it takes a PLUGIN just to get the disc number in a separate field! Ha!
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19:47:34 <alise> pikhq: For some reason, quodlibet does not like the tag ~album~discnumber~discsubtitle.
19:47:39 <alise> I cannot find a single reason for this to be true.
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19:54:44 * pikhq has been fetching covers.
19:54:54 <alise> pikhq: Ex Falso can do that ... :P
19:55:10 <alise> pikhq: I remember the good old days, when iTunes had a flaw that allowed you to download 600x600 covers for shit.
19:55:20 <pikhq> alise: Yes, I've been doing that in Quod Libet.
19:55:23 <alise> Was lovely. There was a script to do it and all.
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19:56:16 <pikhq> And Quod Libet seems to dislike the musicbrainz_albumid tag being different between two discs of albums.
19:56:27 <alise> I have two discs of the same album, and they don't get merged in the Album List.
19:56:27 <alise> Make sure they have the same name (i.e. without "(disc x)" on the end). If they are still not merged, they have different labelid or musicbrainz_albumid tags. If they have different label ID tags, delete the incorrect one. If they have different MusicBrainz album ID tags, add a labelid tag that is the same for both albums.
19:56:37 <alise> It's a bit reasonable, but also not.
19:57:16 <pikhq> It's quite annoying.
19:57:26 <alise> You could just delete those tags. They're dumb.
19:58:18 <alise> pikhq: BTW, take a look at ~/.quodlibet/current.
19:58:38 <alise> There's also ~/.quodlibet/control, which I gather accepts commands of some sort.
19:59:01 <alise> Yeah, echo next >~/.quodlibet/control works.
19:59:35 <alise> However, I still can't get it to show this particular column header. :-)
20:00:15 <alise> Or, yes I can! Hooray!
20:00:42 <alise> Now how does one...
20:00:52 <Vorpal> um, musicbrainz have release groups
20:01:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
20:01:05 <Vorpal> for grouping multiple discs from the same album
20:01:15 <alise> Can you please just never mistake have/has again. As a general tip pick the opposite of what you always do.
20:01:59 <alise> pikhq: The best feature of Quod Libet: The release names come from the current Dinosaur Comic at the time of release.
20:02:18 <Vorpal> alise, you never complain when I use the right one, so that doesn't work.
20:02:29 <alise> Vorpal: you never use the right one
20:02:35 <Vorpal> and I know which one is the right, it is just that I forget to think about it.
20:02:58 <Vorpal> alise, and that statement is not true.
20:04:12 <alise> Hey, KDE redesigned their website. If only they redesigned KDE too.
20:04:26 <Sgeo> KDE4 doesn't count?
20:04:32 <alise> 4.5, wowzers; I wonder in which ways it's exactly identical to the previous version.
20:04:42 <alise> Ooh, looks like ALL THE WAYS!
20:05:38 <Sgeo> Maybe it will be less crashtastic? (Last time I used KDE was in 3.x on Kubuntu, so it's been a while)
20:05:52 <Sgeo> Qt is all C++ish :/
20:06:06 <alise> It doesn't crash. But it does suck.
20:08:32 <Sgeo> Well, crashiness was always my biggest problem with KDE
20:08:39 <Sgeo> Maybe I should try it again
20:08:39 <alise> Your hardware probably just sucks.
20:09:05 * Sgeo continues to learn Falcon
20:09:18 <alise> cpressey is laughing in his Internetless.
20:09:33 <alise> The one thing we single out for being *hopelessly terrible*, you start learning.
20:09:50 <Sgeo> I want to see how it's terrible
20:10:49 <alise> 21:08:07 <Sgeo> But so far, these are not "This language is horrible" issues, just "This language doesn't turn me on and make me wet" issues
20:11:01 <alise> Please never say "This language doesn't turn me on and make me wet" again.
20:11:43 <alise> Actually, I think it would be pretty hard for a language to do that to any member in this channel, since we're all male.
20:12:27 <Sgeo> If the language were awesome enough, it would make me female
20:12:32 <Sgeo> Just so it could do that
20:12:59 <alise> I think Sgeo has secret desires he is not quite ready to admit openly to the world, so he encodes them in statements about programming languages.
20:13:23 * Sgeo doesn't actually want to be female
20:13:34 <alise> Your secret's safe with us.
20:18:09 <alise> [ehird@dinky ~]$ nethack
20:18:09 <alise> bash: nethack: command not found
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20:24:25 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: No, it's slow.
20:24:33 -!- Wamanuz has joined.
20:25:06 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, well, it's bearable if you use ^ or shift when moving through corridors.
20:26:11 <alise> I'd rather just get the Home Experience.
20:26:22 <Vorpal> <Sgeo> Well, crashiness was always my biggest problem with KDE <-- I never had KDE 3.5.x crash
20:26:48 <Vorpal> 3.0.x a few times iirc
20:26:48 <Sgeo> Various applications would crash
20:26:55 <Sgeo> Note that this was Kubuntu, so
20:27:56 <Vorpal> that could explain a lot
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20:32:32 <alise> You know, I might just give up and install a shitty desktop environment.
20:33:59 * pikhq does some Replay Gain on it all... Mmm.
20:34:03 -!- Gregor-P has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
20:34:25 <alise> pikhq: Quod Libet actually uses album replaygain /except/ when shuffling, where it uses track replaygain. Which is awesome.
20:34:37 <alise> RANDOM QUOD LIBET FACTS, brought to you by alise.
20:34:39 <pikhq> alise: Yeah, that is actually really awesome.
20:34:53 <alise> Now if only it showed my custom column of insanity!
20:35:02 <pikhq> Use album ReplayGain when you would want it, and track ReplayGain when you would want it.
20:36:30 <Vorpal> what exactly is replaygain?
20:37:22 <alise> Vorpal: the semi-solution to the loundness war
20:37:39 <alise> Vorpal: basically, a metal track from the 80s is much quieter than a mild pop song from the 2000s
20:37:44 <alise> Vorpal: this is because of mixing trends etc.
20:37:53 <alise> Vorpal: replaygain calculates this, cleverly, restoring the dynamics across the ages
20:37:59 <alise> so the metal song will be louder than the pop song, no matter when they're from
20:38:17 <alise> album replaygain is replaygain applied to a whole album as a unit, rather than a track; this is so that the dynamics are stable across songs, and segues are retained
20:38:31 <Vorpal> alise, why not make a standard for recording level?
20:38:39 -!- tombom has joined.
20:38:42 <pikhq> And essentially it just does the volume-adjusting that you would do automatically.
20:39:07 <alise> Vorpal: I know you Swedes are totally down with socialism, but did you really just propose LAWS on MIXING MUSIC?
20:39:17 <pikhq> alise: The RIAA *used* to actually have such a standard.
20:39:26 <pikhq> It went by the wayside with the end of vinyl.
20:39:27 <alise> Yes ... the RIAA ... always the best organisation to imitate ...
20:39:37 <pikhq> This was when the RIAA wasn't entirely evil.
20:39:41 <pikhq> Just *largely* evil.
20:39:44 <Vorpal> alise, is this thing able to handle that some music isn't using the full dynamic range? A quiet nocturne shouldn't be as loud as some heavy metal for example
20:39:55 <alise> Vorpal: yes, that is the whole point of it
20:40:06 <Vorpal> alise, neat, how does it figure that out?
20:40:10 <alise> Vorpal: "mathematics"
20:40:14 <alise> Replay Gain works by first performing a psychoacoustic analysis of an entire audio track to measure peak levels and perceived loudness. The difference between the measured perceived loudness and the desired target loudness is calculated; this is considered the ideal replay gain value (the target loudness of most Replay Gain utilities is 89 dB SPL — 6 dB higher than the Replay Gain specification and SMPTE recommendation[1]). Usually, the gain value and th
20:40:14 <alise> e peak value are then stored as metadata in the audio file, allowing Replay Gain-capable audio players to automatically attenuate or amplify the signal so that tracks will play at a similar loudness level. This avoids the common problem of having to manually adjust volume levels when playing audio files from albums that have been mastered at different levels. Should the audio at its original levels be desired (e.g., for burning back to hard copy), the meta
20:40:15 <alise> data can simply be ignored.
20:41:21 <pikhq> It's a bit of a hack to get around shitty mixing, but it *is* rather nice.
20:41:29 <Vorpal> "desired target loudness" being?
20:41:33 <alise> Even with good mixing, there'd still be variations due to personal taste.
20:41:40 <pikhq> alise: True, but much less so.
20:41:45 <alise> Vorpal: 89 dB (the standard is 6 dB lower but nobody goes by that)
20:41:50 <alise> Vorpal: of course, this is then adjusted by your volume control.
20:42:45 <pikhq> The idea being that you end up not having to fiddle with your volume settings so that you can hear stuff or not go deaf.
20:43:24 <Vorpal> alise, that doesn't seem to address the issue I mentioned above, if I shuffle music and I have some quiet piano music and some heavy metal, I probably *don't* want them to be played back at the same volume, while I probably want to compensate for the time they were recorded at
20:43:33 <Vorpal> or am I missing something important here?
20:43:38 <alise> Vorpal: that is exactly what it does
20:43:43 <alise> the piano music will be quieter
20:43:48 <alise> no matter what decade the two were mixed at
20:44:05 <alise> the stupid thing you are thinking of is called "volume normalisation" etc. and it is dumb; ReplayGain is not that
20:44:05 <Vorpal> hum. Is that from the "psychoacoustic analysis" stuff?
20:44:19 <alise> I don't understand the mathematics behind it; I only know that it works well.
20:44:49 <Vorpal> so we just moved the issue to a black box called "psychoacoustic analysis". Fun :)
20:45:03 <alise> You use it and it solves the problem.
20:45:07 <pikhq> This is a common thing, though.
20:45:13 <alise> Maybe you don't understand it, I don't for instance.
20:45:16 <pikhq> It's part of the functioning of all lossy audio codecs.
20:45:19 <alise> But it's not like you can't just check.
20:45:27 <alise> pikhq: but replaygain is NOT lossy, mind
20:45:41 <alise> Vorpal: http://replaygain.hydrogenaudio.org/contents.html
20:45:44 <alise> Vorpal: you can read the spec :P
20:45:45 <Vorpal> pikhq, okay. It just seems like some kind of black magic being able to tell how loud some music really is.
20:46:07 <alise> radio replaygain = track replaygain
20:46:10 <alise> audiophile replaygain = album replaygain
20:46:13 <alise> the spec uses older terms
20:46:22 <alise> and pretend the desired volume level is 6 dB higher than it says to match tools
20:46:43 <alise> Vorpal: http://replaygain.hydrogenaudio.org/calculating_rg.html
20:46:44 <Vorpal> alise, can in a bit, I'm doing heavy lifting of data atm.
20:46:46 <alise> Vorpal: there's the how-it-works
20:46:55 <Vorpal> opening browser atm would be suicidal.
20:47:17 <Vorpal> well, lynx would probably work
20:47:24 <alise> it will work with lynx
20:48:48 <alise> incidentally, the 83 dB SPL level is probably better than the 89 dB level used by tools, but it doesn't matter since you can just use your volume control
20:48:55 <alise> not sure why tools differ from the spec, but they all do, universally
20:49:09 <pikhq> Vorpal: BTW, most of what it does is recognise that things are too *loud* and make them more quiet. It won't actually adjust properly-mixed things too much.
20:49:20 <Vorpal> alise, anyway, wrt "LAWS on MIXING MUSIC": no. No one has to follow Red Book standard either. There is no law forcing that,
20:50:17 <alise> well i agree that recommendations would be good, but there's always an element of personal taste
20:50:39 <Vorpal> pikhq, anyway, isn't the peak on non-classical recordings these days usually something like 0.01 dB from max?
20:50:53 <alise> Vorpal: pop recordings now clip
20:51:09 <pikhq> Particularly when lossy-compressed.
20:51:11 <alise> Vorpal: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/48/GiveItAwayLoudnessComparison.png
20:51:18 <pikhq> ReplayGain makes it actually clip less.
20:51:20 <alise> Vorpal: on top: 1991 mastering of "Give it Away", by Red Hot Chili Peppers.
20:51:23 <alise> Vorpal: on bottom, 2003 mastering.
20:51:27 <alise> Vorpal: note the incessant clipping.
20:51:42 <Vorpal> alise, will check that later, lynx can't do it.
20:52:00 <Vorpal> alise, is it clipped on CD too?
20:52:08 <alise> Vorpal: imagine a constant clip; now imagine very slight, occasional dips down to maybe 0.1 dB less
20:52:19 <alise> Vorpal: those images are from the cd
20:52:34 <Vorpal> why... that just means the sound is distorted...
20:52:43 <pikhq> That is the *actual mixing*.
20:52:56 <alise> Vorpal: Because it sounds better in cars.
20:53:04 <alise> The listener never misses a single thing. It's LOUD!
20:53:11 <alise> Vorpal: But it does to idiots.
20:53:19 <alise> Vorpal: Otherwise it's "too quiet"; i.e. has dynamic range.
20:53:27 <pikhq> The irony being that it's a moot point on radio stations, anyways.
20:53:40 <pikhq> Since the radio will actually do the damned limiting, anyways.
20:53:43 <Vorpal> alise, if I want louder I just increase whatever volume control(s) my playback device has
20:53:54 <pikhq> Generally with better (non-clipping) settings.
20:54:25 <Vorpal> why clip it? Why not just compress the dynamic range?
20:54:37 <Vorpal> in cars that would actually be a useful feature.
20:54:43 <alise> Vorpal: they compress it to maximum volume.
20:54:44 <pikhq> Because setting the compression to clipping is "louder".
20:55:19 <pikhq> And louder is better!
20:55:32 <alise> Otherwise people will hear the other peoples' music and not ours!!!
20:55:34 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: not stupid
20:55:35 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: well, relatively
20:56:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Until I fond out how codata works, I refuse to acknowledge its uses.
20:56:26 <Vorpal> pikhq, in cars a non-clipping dynamic range compression feature would actually be nice. Some music I like have huge dynamic range, in cars it needs to be compressed to always be audible without being clipped. Too loud isn't nice either
20:56:34 <Vorpal> so that would be useful
20:56:48 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: sec
20:56:50 <Vorpal> clipping is just.... stupid
20:56:53 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: i'll find you a tutorial
20:57:24 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: http://adam.chlipala.net/cpdt/html/Coinductive.html
20:57:25 <Vorpal> pikhq, when I checked some classical cds I have, they generally peak at -2.3 dB or such for modern ones, and even lower for older ones
20:57:30 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I know that it has something to do with eliminating from the set of all possible things rather than building from nothing, but that's all. And probably inaccurate.
20:57:42 <alise> Vorpal: Let me just say that I wish the sound engineers who work on classical music would work on other music too.
20:57:45 <Vorpal> pikhq, I guess people listening to classical would never accept clipped
20:57:50 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: that's basically wrong
20:57:52 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: http://adam.chlipala.net/cpdt/html/Coinductive.html
20:58:04 <alise> well it might be right in some sense
20:58:06 <pikhq> Vorpal: Yes, classical gets mixed properly.
20:58:06 <alise> but it's not useful
20:58:38 <pikhq> alise: Many of the sound engineers actually get *forced* to do the loudness thing.
20:58:43 <Vorpal> pikhq, I guess that is because those "idiots" alise referred to above never listen to classical
20:58:58 <pikhq> alise: By the band and/or the managers.
20:59:08 <alise> i'm imagining classical booming from a convertible car now
20:59:16 <alise> rich shithead teenager inside
20:59:24 <alise> bothering everyone on the street :D
21:00:23 <Vorpal> alise, I listened to classical while in car. The problem is that it has too much dynamic range a lot of the time. So either you don't hear the quiet parts, or you hear them but your ears get destroyed from the loud parts
21:00:40 <alise> Vorpal: Yes, cars should have a built-in compression system.
21:00:41 <Vorpal> alise, so a compression button in the car stereo would be nice, which does it without clipping
21:01:14 <alise> pikhq: what's the quality of the cover art on musicbrainz like?
21:01:47 <alise> i'll stick to exfalso/quodlibet then
21:02:31 <Vorpal> alise, personally I never felt a need for cover art
21:02:36 <alise> I might have to write a script that strips *sort, asin, barcode, musicbrainz_*, organization, performer*, and releasecountry from files
21:02:42 <alise> and reduces date to a year
21:02:47 <alise> Picard is crazy with its tags
21:02:54 <alise> Vorpal: it's just decoration. some cover art is very nice
21:03:01 <pikhq> It's nice that it's automatic, but it *is* a bit over-the-top.
21:03:48 <alise> hell, the cover of "The Dark Side of the Moon" has become iconic
21:04:14 <pikhq> As has "Abbey Road".
21:04:14 <Vorpal> alise, having musicbrainz_ id tags is useful, makes it easy to fetch updates to the various tags
21:04:23 <alise> Vorpal: basically cover art is there for the same reason as any other packaging, choice of typefaces, whatever... the extended "release" beyond the music
21:04:26 <alise> & included photographs, etc
21:04:38 <alise> as opposed to just releasing an undecorated cd in a case with no markings
21:04:55 <alise> even band names, album titles, track titles are aesthetic decisions in this way
21:05:40 <alise> I wish this laptop had better speakers.
21:06:48 <alise> Okay, if I don't find a decent panel program soon I'm just going to install a DE.
21:09:59 <alise> Is autopickup good or bad? I forget.
21:12:30 -!- ais523 has joined.
21:12:52 <alise> ais523: is autopickup good or bad?
21:14:28 <ais523> good, but only if you change the settings from the insane defaults to sane values
21:14:43 <alise> Is there a quick line to do that with?
21:14:50 <alise> I'm getting a friend set up to play Nethack and I've forgotten everything myself.
21:15:28 <ais523> in the RC file: OPTIONS=pickup_types:/="$?
21:15:41 <ais523> or in-game, you can do it via pickup_types in the options, turn on the same set of item types
21:15:51 <alise> OPTIONS=boulder:0, decgraphics, color, autodig, !cmdassist, norest_on_space, pickup_types:/="$?
21:16:13 <ais523> isn't it !rest_on_space?
21:16:23 <alise> Apparently not ...
21:16:29 <ais523> also, autodig can be a bit dubious at times, especially if you aren't used to it
21:16:38 <alise> Hmm, wait, it is !rest_on_space.
21:16:56 <alise> OPTIONS=boulder:0, decgraphics, color, !cmdassist, !rest_on_space, pickup_types:/="$?
21:17:01 <alise> Wait, it's normally off.
21:18:24 <alise> ais523: is there any way to choose what pet you start with?
21:18:41 <ais523> but it has to be a legal one for the class
21:18:48 <alise> valkryies can do either right?
21:19:32 <ais523> alise: I'm working on my own NetHack fork atm, incidentally
21:19:49 <ais523> (besides, I don't see any reason why you wouldn't do cat/dog at random, given that they're basically identical)
21:20:40 <alise> Personal preference!
21:27:11 <alise> ais523: do you know of a good nethack tutorial i can point him to now it's set up?
21:27:19 <alise> i'm not nearly a good enough player to teach him
21:27:29 <ais523> I'm aware that there's a reasonably good one, but I've forgotten what it's called
21:27:32 * ais523 tries to find it again
21:28:02 <ais523> I think it might be http://www.melankolia.net/nethack/nethack.guide.html
21:28:06 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:28:20 <ais523> (it's written for 3.4.1, but all the changes since have been bugfixes so they don't affect a beginner's tutorial)
21:28:37 <ais523> it doesn't list the controls thoug
21:28:42 <ais523> which are pretty important
21:28:44 <alise> ais523: yeah, basic controls would help
21:29:25 <ais523> you're meant to read the manual, but it's a) not very good, b) written by ESR
21:31:55 <ais523> here's a quick summary off the top of my head: 12346789 or yuhjklbn = move or fight; o to open doors; i to view inventory; aqrzwWPt use items; RT unequip items; < and > use stairs
21:32:08 <ais523> also, use < and > to navigate through menus, and . to select things at a "which square?" screen
21:33:48 <ais523> random fact: although NetHack players overwhelmingly tend to be male, both of the major spoiler sites I know are run by women
21:34:01 <alise> http://strategywiki.org/wiki/NetHack/Controls
21:34:05 <alise> this seems to be an excellent, if verbose, control reference.
21:34:36 <ais523> I've never seen that before
21:34:40 <ais523> but yes, it looks good
21:34:45 <alise> what's the method to quit without dying? i.e. save
21:36:20 <alise> i've forgotten everything :x
21:36:26 * ais523 finds and fixes an error
21:36:46 <ais523> (S is save and quit; #quit is delete save file and quit)
21:37:39 <alise> "Velkommen ehird, welcome to NetHack!" How redundant.
21:37:48 <alise> Can you change /your/ name?
21:38:43 <ais523> -u on the command line
21:38:55 <ais523> as in, nethack -u TAEB (which I used to use quite a lot)
21:40:18 <alise> So is cmdassist ever actually useful?
21:40:25 <alise> I'm wondering if I've done him a disservice by telling him to turn it off.
21:40:47 <alise> ais523: NAME= also works btw
21:41:10 <alise> thusly i am alise now as far as nethack is concerned
21:41:33 <ais523> cmdassist only triggers in two situations: trying to type ^D rather rather than control-D, and pressing a meaningless key in a pick-any-square targeting screen
21:41:47 <ais523> the second case is more harmful than useful, because there's a bug in it that cancels the entire action
21:41:49 <alise> They are good ... I think
21:42:19 <ais523> either DEC or IBM is better than the standard in every way, if it works on your terminal
21:42:27 <ais523> except that other people watching you might not understand the control codes
21:43:10 <alise> IBM doesn't work with xterm, but DEC does
21:43:39 <alise> A door that opens onto nothing. How delightfully pointless.
21:44:02 <alise> ais523: can you disable "You displaced [pet]."?
21:44:04 <alise> it's really bothersome
21:44:14 <ais523> not without turning off most of the messages in the game
21:44:28 <alise> i bet there's a Patch For That
21:44:37 <ais523> why does it bother you that much?
21:44:38 <alise> *There's A Patch For That
21:44:42 <ais523> generally, you don't do a lot of displacing
21:44:42 <alise> ais523: i keep displacing Fluff :D
21:44:49 <alise> well in cramped situations i do
21:44:59 <alise> am i fucked if i can't get myself to use the diagonal movement keys?
21:45:16 <ais523> but they do help quite a lot every now and then
21:45:29 <alise> i'd use numpad to get over that but i have none, ha
21:45:31 <ais523> going down diagonal corridors twice as fact, etc
21:45:39 <ais523> meh, yubn are in pretty obvious places
21:45:44 <ais523> just look at where they are relative to the h
21:45:55 <alise> ais523: if it ever becomes truly necessary i'll probably be thinking enough to be able to think about what direction to use, anyway
21:45:58 <alise> and for normal movement it shouldn't matter
21:46:04 <ais523> (I suppose you're leaving your right hand on jkl; rather than hjkl like I do?)
21:46:28 <alise> No, I leave my right hand on hjkl. Why wouldn't you?!
21:46:43 <alise> I don't use the home row positions, so I have no instinctive desire to rest on jkl;.
21:47:19 <alise> ais523: is there an autoopen :D
21:47:28 <ais523> alise: I wrote that into AceHack this morning :)
21:47:39 <alise> that's a crap name, you should change it :D
21:47:54 <Vorpal> I can't figure this out, windows VM thinks the disk is unformatted, same disk attached to a linux vm thinks it contains a proper NTFS partition
21:48:06 <ais523> I suspect Linux is correct here
21:48:15 <Vorpal> ais523, I'm 99% sure it is
21:48:19 <Vorpal> ais523, but why isn't windows seeing it
21:48:22 <ais523> (likewise, if they believed the other way round, I'd suspect Windows was correct)
21:48:36 <Vorpal> ais523, I need it visible from windows
21:48:49 <alise> Vorpal: i bet it starts off ntfsy, but then has some corruption
21:48:59 <alise> windows, being the one "natively" supporting ntfs, catches this
21:49:04 <alise> while linux does not, having more rudimentary support
21:49:08 <ais523> what about fscking it from inside Linux?
21:49:18 <Vorpal> ais523, is there ntfsfsck?
21:49:22 <Vorpal> I can't find it here at least
21:49:30 <alise> it's more likely to be fsck.ntfs3g
21:50:00 <ais523> I don't have a fsck for NFS
21:50:09 <Vorpal> Command 'fsck.nfs' from package 'initscripts' (main)
21:50:16 <Vorpal> as the only alternative
21:50:22 <ais523> (I /do/ have a fsck for NFS)
21:50:32 <alise> ais523: call it WorkHack
21:50:38 <Vorpal> I can't chkdsk it either it seems
21:50:42 <ais523> alise: well, lots of people know the name know
21:50:46 <alise> ais523: but it's crap! :D
21:51:01 <alise> and you should FEEL BAD
21:51:13 <Vorpal> ais523, and ntfs3g dislikes opening it, it claims it needs to be chkdsked under windows first
21:51:25 <alise> Vorpal: it's invalid
21:51:36 <alise> try head(1)ing the drive and seeing if the headers are right :D
21:51:47 <Vorpal> alise, I can get data out of it using the old ntfsls tools and such
21:51:55 <alise> ais523: You have a sad feeling for a moment, then it passes.
21:52:00 -!- alise has left (?).
21:52:03 -!- alise has joined.
21:52:09 <alise> ais523: i was walking down a regular corridor
21:52:10 <alise> on the first level
21:52:14 <alise> how cosmically unfair is that?!
21:52:19 <alise> fuck that, I'm restarting, I want my Fluff
21:52:26 <ais523> oh, your mistake was calling your pet Fluff
21:52:43 <ais523> (NetHack community: "Fluffy" is the standard name for a pet destined to die to a trap in the first few seconds)
21:52:48 <ais523> (there is no in-game evidence for this)
21:52:56 <alise> well i called it fluff, not fluffy, so THERE
21:54:21 <alise> ais523: are there any cutesy, stereotypically-cat-like names that /aren't/ cursed?
21:54:44 <ais523> I use "Tabby", and it seems to work quite well
21:54:51 <ais523> but really, it's all down to RNG capriciousness
21:55:18 <alise> but if i stick with fluffy, I'll have the horrible feeling that i've cursed it to a premature death for no fault of its own.
21:56:59 <alise> http://petrix.com/catnames/
21:57:12 <alise> disappointing lack of cute names
21:57:28 <alise> i'll call it felix
21:58:21 <alise> i keep removing nethack's record of dead characters because it's embarrasing
21:58:24 <alise> am I a bad person?
22:00:14 <alise> I need chunkier keys to avoid mistypes
22:00:21 <ais523> it seems a little pointless, really
22:00:29 <ais523> most people consider that a "high score table"
22:00:29 <alise> what, removing the file?
22:00:37 <alise> yeah, it's pretty much obsessiveness that causes me to do it :P
22:01:16 <alise> ais523: Hey, my boulders are showing up as `, not 0.
22:01:36 <ais523> try writing the boulder option as BOULDER=0
22:01:40 <ais523> some of the options are weird like that
22:02:42 <alise> oh, that's the problem
22:02:45 <alise> BOULDER= is for the ascii code
22:02:48 <alise> boulder:0 gives the correct thing
22:02:52 <alise> how stupidly inconsistent
22:03:32 <ais523> I didn't design the RC file format
22:03:34 <pikhq> alise: Say, do you have any idea how ReplayGain metadata and MP3GAIN interact in ReplayGain-supporting players?
22:03:44 <alise> ais523: fix it in NotAcheHack :P
22:03:46 <alise> pikhq: probably badly
22:03:51 <alise> pikhq: i suggest not using mp3gain
22:04:02 <ais523> alise: I deleted most of the options
22:04:06 <pikhq> alise: MP3GAIN for the purposes of devices that don't support ReplayGain.
22:04:08 <alise> f - a scroll labeled PRIRUTSENIE.
22:04:14 <alise> ais523: reasonable defaults?
22:04:15 <ais523> although they're still in the RC file, for people who care
22:04:19 <pikhq> I'm going to have to create a fairly *complex* exporting script, aren't I?
22:04:19 <alise> pikhq: just use mp3gain only
22:04:20 <ais523> and yes, because reasonable defaults
22:04:22 <alise> pikhq: or dump those files
22:04:46 <alise> ais523: ugh, what's the command to see the last message again?
22:05:08 <alise> Noises in the distance -- that means enemies, yes?
22:05:41 * pikhq shall definitely need to write a music exporter
22:05:58 <ais523> alise: fighting, more specifically
22:06:07 <alise> ais523: On the first level?!
22:06:08 <ais523> so it's nearly always a sign that your pet decided to brutally kill something
22:06:18 <alise> well he is wondering off
22:06:20 <alise> (do they have genders?)
22:06:33 <ais523> alise: yes, but they're impossible to determine without looking at the memory or something
22:06:46 <ais523> there was a huge debate in #nethack several months ago about how to determine the gender of your pet cat
22:06:47 <ais523> in the end, we gave up
22:06:55 <alise> my favourite type of grid bug
22:07:02 <ais523> grid bugs cannot move diagonally
22:07:12 <alise> yes, they are my favourite type of grid bug
22:07:31 <pikhq> Anyways. Mmm, music.
22:07:40 <alise> whaa? this first level appears to have no downstairs
22:07:58 <alise> it's just a huge first level
22:07:59 <ais523> alise: they're probably near a secret door somewhere; try searching the walls near suspiciously empty parts of the map
22:09:51 <alise> ais523: behold the gigantic level 1: http://imgur.com/P1Khd.png
22:10:12 <alise> and no, i have no idea where felix is
22:10:18 <alise> other than that he's on a rampage
22:10:24 <ais523> that's not /that/ ridiculous
22:10:50 <alise> ais523: what is up with doors locked from both sides
22:10:59 <ais523> doors lock symmetrically in NetHack
22:11:05 <ais523> just like many sorts of RL locks
22:11:20 <alise> actually, what kind of a dungeon is this anyway?
22:11:24 <alise> ZOMG NETHACK ISN'T REALISTIC
22:11:53 <alise> ais523: i should just s a lot to find the downstairs, right?
22:12:10 <ais523> use 20s in order to do 20 searches in a row, it saves on typing
22:12:14 <ais523> and search near empty areas of the map
22:12:23 <ais523> like that bit in the middle, with the suspicious dead-end corridor leading towards it
22:12:27 <alise> ais523: i just did that and became hungry
22:12:40 <alise> which bit in the middle?
22:12:49 <alise> the one with the "# #####" formation?
22:13:09 <alise> i have a food ration, should prolly eat that
22:13:39 <ais523> where there's a length-2 corridor in the middle of nowhere
22:14:02 <ais523> after a while, you learn NetHack's map generation algo, it doesn't generate the sort of corridors around there without a secret door, normally
22:14:50 <alise> Uhh, how are goblin corpses, nutritionally?
22:14:56 <alise> I should probably google this stuff.
22:15:09 <ais523> alise: /msg PinoBot #!info name=goblin
22:15:30 <alise> Okay, I meant more poisonousnessly than nutritionally.
22:15:30 <ais523> for a comparison, food rations are 800
22:15:41 <alise> Ehh, I'll let felix eat it.
22:15:49 <Vorpal> aha, ntfs-3g gave some usable error
22:15:53 <ais523> (PinoBot lists corpse danger too)
22:15:54 <Vorpal> a very very wtf error though
22:16:04 <Vorpal> "partition is smaller than NTFS"
22:16:22 <alise> Vorpal: smaller than ntfs minimum
22:16:23 <ais523> the filesystem is larger than the partition?
22:16:35 <Vorpal> alise, well yeah I'm pretty sure 40 GB isn't
22:16:40 <ais523> alise: found the stairs yet?
22:16:48 <alise> ais523: i searched in the place you said and found some more dead-end corridor
22:16:57 <ais523> did you search there too?
22:17:15 <ais523> check under the boulder in the northwest room
22:17:20 <alise> how do you give corpses to pets again?
22:17:28 <ais523> throw them; or just let the pet walk onto the square
22:18:04 <alise> "The corpse misses Felix."
22:18:21 <Vorpal> ais523, a difference of 236749891 according to the sector ntfs-3g claims and that mbr claims
22:18:31 <alise> ais523: felix does not seem to be hungry.
22:18:33 <ais523> alise: yep, it'll eat it from the square
22:18:40 <ais523> but yes, it's possible for a pet to not be hungry
22:18:42 <alise> ais523: it picked up the newt then dropped it; ignored the goblin
22:18:46 <ais523> also, it won't eat dangerous corpses
22:18:54 <ais523> the newt must have been too old to eat safely
22:18:59 <ais523> only fresh coprses are edible
22:19:02 <Vorpal> that partition has never been that big
22:19:10 <alise> I'll just dump the corpses
22:19:11 <ais523> I doubt it, unless you killed it recently
22:19:36 <alise> worth searching here?
22:20:00 <ais523> it'd have to be a very small room to fit there
22:20:03 <ais523> but it's theoretically possible
22:20:14 <alise> │······│ ┌───────────┐ 0########################·········│
22:20:14 <alise> │······│ │···········│ # ┌─────┐ │········│
22:20:14 <alise> │0······###########0│···········│ ### │·····│ #######·········│
22:20:45 <alise> well, there's another one of those
22:21:22 <alise> ais523: ok; i'm at a loss
22:21:24 <alise> i've searched everywhere
22:21:38 <ais523> paste another screenshot?
22:22:12 <alise> ais523: http://i.imgur.com/k06Kv.png
22:22:15 <alise> ais523: no point pasting
22:22:21 <alise> ais523: i.imgur.com/k06Kv.png
22:22:34 <alise> <alise> ais523: behold the gigantic level 1: []imgur.com/P1Khd.png
22:22:35 <alise> i did say that before
22:22:38 <alise> but forgot you wouldn't see it
22:22:41 <ais523> oh, I was considering imgur a pastebin
22:22:51 <alise> i thought you meant the one i actually pasted
22:22:53 <fizzie> Incidentally! I booted my network HD box thing today (after a rather severe thunderstorm which cut the electricity for an hour or two, not that it's necessarily related); the leds ("sys" + "disk1" + "disk2") on the box light up properly, but the network link led (in both ends of the cable) stays dark.
22:22:54 <alise> <alise> │······│ ┌───────────┐ 0########################·········│
22:22:55 <alise> <alise> │······│ │···········│ # ┌─────┐ │········│
22:22:55 <alise> <alise> │0······###########0│···········│ ### │·····│ #######·········│
22:23:01 <ais523> nah, I was referring to the screenshot
22:23:06 <ais523> I use a proportional font for IRC anyway...
22:23:14 <alise> i was hoping you didn't
22:23:54 <ais523> I might search the stupid corridor in the middle again, just in case (searching isn't 100% likely to work)
22:24:05 <alise> I searched it 40 times or so.
22:24:11 <alise> Don't wanna give up, this is too ridiculous to give up on!
22:25:07 <alise> ais523: heh, that # ## thing, after 40s, revealed a connection between the tw
22:25:12 <alise> this level is ludicrous
22:25:24 <ais523> I thought there probably would be
22:25:26 <alise> felix just gave me a lichen corpse, gross
22:25:42 <Sgeo> Aren't lichen edible?
22:25:44 <alise> worth eating the horrible, awful lichen corpse to stay alive? :D
22:25:48 <alise> Sgeo: yes, but felix just dropped it
22:26:10 <Sgeo> alise, I take it you like role-playing?
22:26:13 <fizzie> alise: It's not like real-life-you personally has to eat it, you know.
22:26:16 <alise> and picked it, and dropped it
22:26:21 <alise> Sgeo: why do you infer that?
22:26:21 <fizzie> (That might make the game even less popular.)
22:26:29 <alise> fizzie: Yes, but I might DIE.
22:26:41 <Sgeo> Oh, it might be old?
22:26:44 <alise> It tastes terrible!
22:26:53 <alise> probably quite old
22:27:49 <fizzie> I don't think lichen corpses actually ever age.
22:28:01 <fizzie> if (!tp && mnum != PM_LIZARD && mnum != PM_LICHEN && (otmp->orotten || !rn2(7))) { ...
22:28:10 <fizzie> See, lizards and lichen are always safe to eat.
22:28:52 <fizzie> (It's a bit weird that it always either "is delicious" or "tastes terrible"; there's no "is a bit, you know, meh" middle-ground.)
22:29:12 <fizzie> (On the other hand, you *are* eating corpses raw.)
22:29:15 <alise> ais523: add "is a bit, you know, meh" now
22:29:21 <alise> acehack must have this vital feature
22:29:24 <ais523> alise: doesn't fit with the goals of the fork
22:31:16 <alise> ais523: which are? to be MEH?
22:31:32 <ais523> alise: same as vanilla, only with a much better interface and bugs fixed
22:31:45 <ais523> the idea is to not try to take it way off into non-vanilla-land like most forks do
22:32:01 <ais523> also, ideally all changes should make the game easier, preferably by reducing interface screw rather than by actually making the gameplay easier
22:32:33 <alise> ais523: any other ideas where to search?
22:33:00 <ais523> try any stretch of three consecutive non-door wall pieces, especially if it's near a relatively open area of the map
22:33:28 <alise> is there a key to "go to nearest character of this key"?
22:33:34 <alise> like if i press F it'll seek to the nearest, say, litchen
22:33:38 <alise> for looking at / etc
22:34:19 <ais523> alise: that works, but only for staircases, doors, altars, and sinks
22:34:25 <ais523> I think at least one fork expands it to other things
22:34:33 <ais523> (for monsters it's a bit harder due to clashes with movement keys)
22:34:39 <ais523> just press the character
22:34:44 <alise> oh, i meant like a separate character
22:34:54 <ais523> e.g. /> examines the downstairs, _> travels to the downstairs
22:34:54 <alise> what did I do what did I do
22:34:59 <ais523> ! opens a shell recursively
22:35:02 <alise> it seems to have reset
22:35:04 <ais523> kind-of pointless on UNIX
22:35:08 <ais523> where you could just use control-Z
22:35:10 <alise> it's asking for a new character
22:35:13 <alise> can i just q that nethack?
22:35:17 <alise> (the shell is set to nethack for this terminal)
22:35:28 <ais523> also, recursive nethack, how great!
22:35:37 <alise> ok, i'm on the verge of completely giving up
22:35:42 <alise> is searching connected corridors worthwhile?
22:35:53 <ais523> it could work in theory; search three squares into the corridor
22:36:00 <ais523> as it's the most likely place for a secret branch
22:36:06 <ais523> but really, I've never seen that technique needed
22:36:20 <ais523> if you're curious; instead of quitting, save then reopen in debug mode
22:36:22 <alise> you think #nethack will be able to help? (brb)
22:44:19 <Vorpal> ais523, funny thing, it seems all files are within the actual partition
22:44:25 <Vorpal> just the fs thinks it is larger
22:44:41 <Vorpal> presumably just twiddling some header would fix it
22:45:33 <Vorpal> ais523, the good old ntfs user space tools seems to be able to read everything from it
22:45:42 <Vorpal> complaining about it though
22:49:21 -!- FireFly has quit (Excess Flood).
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23:01:41 <alise> ais523: should I just give up?
23:01:50 <alise> also, how do you open in debug mode again? root and some command-line switch right?
23:01:58 <ais523> sudo /usr/games/nethack -D
23:02:14 <alise> I feel slightly queasy running a game as root.
23:02:16 <ais523> then you can map the level with control-F
23:02:32 <ais523> alise: so do I; I change that in my own local compiles
23:02:36 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if fakeroot works?
23:03:16 <alise> ais523: ideally, it should require to be run as root but then drop privileges immediately
23:03:23 <ais523> my guess is that it doesn't work on setgid programs
23:03:43 <ais523> the Windows version just needs a password, that makes much more sense
23:03:52 <alise> what password? yours?
23:04:10 <alise> ais523: why /is/ nethack so protective of its files etc., by the way? originated on multi-user systems?
23:04:28 <ais523> and is still designed for them
23:04:31 <ais523> (the password's "wizard")
23:04:52 <alise> um, i started nethack with -D and it's just gone to the new-character screen
23:04:55 <ais523> if you have a bunch of people playing NetHack on the same server, it Does The Right Thing in most contexts
23:04:57 <alise> whereas nethack works
23:05:00 <ais523> alise: nethack -D -u alise
23:05:01 <alise> is that because root doesn ot have my save files?
23:05:04 <ais523> to load the same savefile
23:05:09 <ais523> hmm, actually, you could be righ
23:05:11 <alise> ais523: you mean -u ehird
23:05:15 <alise> my unix username is ehird
23:05:22 <alise> yeah, none of those work
23:05:25 <ais523> no, under -u you give the name of the character
23:05:29 <ais523> but there's a UID check as well
23:05:35 <ais523> you could just rename the savefile from 1000alise to 0wizard
23:05:44 <alise> ais523: acehack proposal: ./configure --single-user :P
23:05:46 <ais523> unless it kills you by trickery for doing that
23:05:54 <alise> i think it does check filename, no?
23:06:04 <alise> ais523: (puts stuff in ~/.nethack, say, not the root-privileged directories)
23:06:06 <ais523> I'm not sure if it compares the filename to something else
23:06:17 <Sgeo> Try to keep a copy of the savefile just in case?
23:06:20 <ais523> alise: well, that's just ./configure --prefix=~/nethack or whatever
23:06:47 <alise> ais523: yes, but installs system-wide
23:06:51 <alise> ais523: everyone has their own high-scores, etc.
23:06:57 <alise> no setgid needed, everyone can use wizard mode, ...
23:07:05 * Sgeo vaguely wonders why he has a tab opened on the XChat docs... and why there's a plugin module for Falcon
23:07:09 <ais523> that'd spoil most of the fun
23:07:18 <alise> Sgeo: i think if the dev team could, they'd make it search your entire disk for nethack save files
23:07:23 <alise> and kill all your characters if you've copied one out
23:07:48 <alise> ais523: [[To get to the wizard mode, you must start the game with the command "nethack -D -u wizard".]]
23:07:52 <alise> ais523: so you must play as wizard
23:08:05 <ais523> that's the windows version
23:08:13 <ais523> the -u wizard is implied by the -D and being root, on UNIX/Linux
23:08:17 <alise> it then goes on to "In Windows, ..."
23:08:23 <alise> On Debian/Ubuntu, starting NetHack as root using "sudo /usr/games/nethack -D" gets you into wizard mode.
23:08:28 <alise> ais523: only on debian
23:08:42 <ais523> alise: no, that's just due to the changes from the default config
23:08:53 <ais523> the /default/ UNIX config requires your UNIX username to be "wizard"
23:08:55 <alise> ais523: apparently you can run nethack in debug mode with gdb
23:08:57 <ais523> which is a little ridiculous
23:09:02 <ais523> alise: but only if it isn't suid
23:09:09 <alise> ais523: what, it has to be uid 0 /and/ named "wizard"?
23:09:43 <ais523> for extra fun, the config option that selects this is called KR1ED for apparently no reason at all
23:10:05 <alise> it's nethack, i'm hardly surprised
23:10:45 <alise> ais523: i like wikihack's annotated source
23:10:54 <alise> the only way to understand the code is literate programming
23:11:01 <alise> well, pseudo-literate
23:11:27 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:12:35 <alise> ais523: there's some random function that actually depends on the phase of the moon, isn't there?
23:12:43 <ais523> rnl, but only indirectly
23:13:05 <ais523> also, it gave different results yesterday
23:13:10 <ais523> (due to it being friday the 13th)
23:13:15 <alise> 33. return(RND(x));
23:13:20 <alise> why on earth do they do it like that
23:13:31 <ais523> because one of the versions is utterly broken on some compiler or otehr
23:13:41 <alise> ais523: you're shitting me
23:13:51 <ais523> and either they have to write a huge comment "don't change this apparently ridiculous code because it breaks on (insert obscure compiler here)"
23:13:53 <alise> ais523: it has special behaviour, unintentionally, on friday the 13th?
23:13:56 <ais523> or just write it both ways with a #ifdef
23:14:06 <alise> you were talking about the source code
23:14:06 <ais523> unintentionally would be ridiculous
23:14:16 <alise> ais523: it only does it the verbose way in debug mode, though
23:14:22 <ais523> hmm, that depends on debug mode?
23:14:28 <alise> it also checks for a negative value
23:14:33 <ais523> normally, it's a #ifdef ATARI or #ifdef GCC_BUG or whatever
23:14:39 <ais523> alise: I bet it's just a location for a breakpoint
23:15:11 <alise> ais523: looking at rnl, i don't see where the time comes in
23:15:18 -!- Oranjer has joined.
23:15:20 -!- jcp has joined.
23:15:22 <ais523> that's why I said "indirectly"
23:15:23 -!- Oranjer has left (?).
23:15:42 <ais523> a full moon gives a consistent +1 to Luck
23:15:57 <alise> have i ever mentioned that nethack is insane?
23:16:23 <ais523> it's that sort of details I love, though
23:16:36 <alise> what's the least lucky day to play on? :)
23:16:46 <ais523> it had #tasvideos (specifically Ilari) write a program for bruteforcing all the new moon friday 13ths over the next century, just so we could play at hardest difficulty
23:17:00 <alise> you know, Ilari is here too :P
23:17:20 <alise> so what's the next new moon friday 13th?
23:19:06 <ais523> and http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9771
23:19:36 <alise> ais523: you /could/ just set the clock
23:19:46 <ais523> that's how it's done in a TAS, ofc
23:19:49 <Ilari> http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=239663&highlight=#239663
23:19:52 <ais523> pick the optimal clock time
23:20:58 <alise> "unfortunately, as it's possible to manipulate luck without spending any gametime and the RNG seed space is incredibly large, minimum gametime would probably take several decades or even centuries to watch." :D
23:21:22 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
23:21:27 <alise> i remember that amazing pokemon something TAS that completed the game in a few frames of gametime
23:22:43 <ais523> alise: it was improved
23:22:51 <ais523> pikhq: sixtieths of a second
23:22:55 <pikhq> I recall it being absurdly quick, but... *Frames*?!?
23:22:57 <ais523> alise: it now no longer leaves the main character's bedroom
23:22:57 <Ilari> There's two of them, the faster one and slower one. Both catch the infamous 152nd pokemon.
23:23:00 <alise> pikhq: it was less than a second
23:23:06 <alise> ais523: got a link?
23:23:14 <alise> pikhq: of gametime, not of menutime etc
23:23:15 <pikhq> alise: So... Not the 2 minute one.
23:23:22 <alise> pikhq: much quicker
23:23:33 <alise> pikhq: that includes in-game menus
23:23:36 <alise> pikhq: just not the intro menus
23:23:45 <ais523> http://tasvideos.org/1582M.html
23:23:55 <ais523> that's around 2 minutes, though
23:24:01 <ais523> you might be thinking of King's Bounty, but that isn't a pokemon game
23:24:06 <alise> ais523: "The interesting bottleneck, which gametime speedruns keep coming up against in non-TAS runs, is that it's impossible to access the Quest, which contains one of the items absolutely necessary to complete the game, before turn 2000, which puts some interesting constraints on the run."
23:24:11 <alise> just do N. when you're ready?
23:24:18 <pikhq> Yeah, you're thinking of King's Bounty.
23:24:21 <ais523> yep, that's one possibility
23:24:25 <alise> i'm not thinking of that
23:24:34 -!- Flonk has joined.
23:24:35 <alise> i guess that less than a minute one is the one i meant
23:24:36 <pikhq> alise: That one actually *has* a few-frame TAS.
23:24:42 <alise> king's bounty is shit though :P
23:24:56 <alise> pikhq: youtube's html5 player is rubbish
23:25:05 <pikhq> The Pokemon Yellow TAS is just absurd.
23:25:29 <pikhq> Memory corruption FTW.
23:25:42 <alise> TASes are probably the closest thing to performance art video games have
23:26:34 <alise> ais523: hey, he leaves the bedroom
23:26:36 <alise> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zFhVr-oMcU
23:26:40 <alise> to go to glitchland
23:26:53 <ais523> but that's once everything's set up
23:27:05 <pikhq> Yes; he rewrites the memory so that the exit of the bedroom is the victory room.
23:27:19 -!- jcp has joined.
23:27:27 <alise> "you have 62 ash, and a error rating!" --YouTube
23:28:22 <alise> ais523: what is JPC-RR?
23:28:30 <ais523> rerecording PC emulator
23:28:42 <alise> why not just mod nethack's code?
23:29:02 <ais523> because you have to do that separately for every game
23:29:04 <ais523> also, NetHack is insane
23:29:06 <alise> ais523: presumably for this nethack speedrun you'd only record a frame when you press a key?
23:29:12 <alise> otherwise you'd have a lot of wasted time
23:29:17 <ais523> the debates about the goal have been really large
23:29:24 <ais523> although, NetHack's RNG is action-based, not time-based
23:29:39 <ais523> also, we need to get it done in less than an hour in order to play at hardest difficulty
23:29:51 <alise> <alise> ais523: presumably for this nethack speedrun you'd only record a frame when you press a key?
23:30:11 <ais523> alise: JPC-RR emulates quite a slow system
23:30:16 <ais523> you record a frame every onscreen frame
23:30:25 <alise> it's so unoptimal!
23:30:27 <ais523> many actions are slow enough that you actually see the game grinding
23:30:43 <alise> one frame per keypress would be amazing
23:30:48 <alise> since it would be "theoretically" o
23:30:56 <ais523> I don't know what you're talking about
23:30:59 <alise> given a robot attached to a computer instead of a keyboard
23:31:05 <alise> ais523: well, imagine a quick computer
23:31:10 <ais523> you can enter multiple keys per frame
23:31:10 <Ilari> Well, drop the divider a bit and it will be faster system (and even slower emulation).
23:31:14 <ais523> and the computer speed really doesn't matter
23:31:17 <alise> now imagine that every time you press a key and nethack responds, it records a frame in the video
23:31:29 <ais523> many keys lead to no onscreen response, though
23:31:36 <alise> ais523: well, you know what i mean
23:31:37 <ais523> especially as you spend half your time walking into walls to manipulate the RNG
23:31:42 <alise> just do it 0.5s after you press it or something
23:31:55 <alise> and never press more often than that; i'm talking about the theoretical idea
23:32:51 <alise> ais523: btw, you have to use 0root.gz
23:33:16 <alise> ais523: and thanks to that, nethack just erased the file
23:33:19 <alise> [ehird@dinky ~]$ sudo nethack -D -u wizard
23:33:25 <alise> what's up with that???
23:33:33 <alise> it's not the wizard's fault that root tried to intrude
23:33:42 <alise> good thing i backed it up
23:33:49 <alise> ais523: it has to be 0wizard
23:33:53 <alise> ais523: it's just that it realised it was alise's file.
23:34:05 <ais523> NetHack's full of protections against that sort of thing
23:34:06 <alise> can you tweak that?
23:34:13 <ais523> only with a recompile, I think
23:34:19 <alise> but it's debug mode ffs!
23:34:41 * alise starts a new game, disgruntled
23:34:47 <ais523> see, this way you can debug the anti-cheat protection!
23:35:35 <alise> ais523: is sokoban optional?
23:35:45 <alise> good; i'm terrible at sokoban
23:35:47 <ais523> although there's some decent loot there
23:36:06 <alise> ais523: all very well but i can't play the simplest sokoban levels outside of nethack
23:37:10 <alise> ais523: "Actually, Ais523 planned to do the run by using special hacked Linux version (modified to behave like DOS version would) recording the needed keyboard input and then just spamming that input (together with the boot sequence input) to emulator using Lua (which will cause final movie file (unless edited) to have RERECORDS 0)."
23:37:14 <alise> ais523: that's basically what i was proposing
23:39:22 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:39:47 <alise> "You hear someone counting money."
23:39:49 <alise> on the first level?
23:39:58 <ais523> (not a shop, that's a different message)
23:40:06 <ais523> vaults are disconnected from everything else, and contain money
23:40:35 <alise> and how do you get there?
23:41:21 <ais523> pickaxe, wand of digging, mattock
23:41:29 <alise> ais523: yeah, remember when i said level 1? :P
23:41:40 <ais523> you could have a picaxe at level 1
23:41:47 <ais523> just play archeologist
23:41:48 <alise> lichen! goblin throwing orcish dagger! wowzers!
23:41:55 <alise> the goblin killed the lichen
23:43:42 <alise> I just picked up a large box.
23:43:45 <alise> Bad idea? Probably.
23:44:11 <ais523> yes, they're rather heavy and don't do anything useful
23:44:15 <ais523> well, don't do much useful
23:44:20 <ais523> you could try looking inside it, but it's probably locked
23:44:40 <alise> err, how do you look inside again?
23:44:52 <ais523> #loot on the floor, or a in inventory
23:45:09 <alise> at ripe ration and a wire ring
23:45:19 <ais523> better than nothing, I suppose
23:46:32 -!- relet has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
23:47:05 <alise> ais523: it's probably impossible to reach this vault, isn't it?
23:47:19 <ais523> at this stage in the game, mostly
23:47:27 <ais523> there's likely a teleport trap somewhere which sends you into it
23:47:33 <ais523> but it won't help much, as it won't let you back /out/
23:47:56 <alise> There's some graffiti on the floor here. You read: "Wcl| Come".--More--
23:48:12 <alise> is it distorted "Well Come"?
23:48:58 <fizzie> "Well Come", /* Prisoner */
23:49:12 <fizzie> (They all are references to something or other.)
23:49:23 -!- relet has joined.
23:49:45 <alise> ais523: is there ever a . break in a wall without path after it?
23:50:02 <fizzie> I like how the one with a phone number -- "For a good time call 8?7-5309" -- has a pre-corrupted one digit to not make it any real number ever.
23:50:03 <ais523> the dungeon isn't in the best state of repair
23:50:33 <alise> ais523: clearly not so rare; i've s'ed it 40 or so times and nothing
23:50:44 <alise> fizzie: don't they know you're meant to use 555-!
23:51:09 <alise> yay a fountain, i forgot what fountains do ...
23:51:13 <alise> this knowledge has just leaked out of my brain
23:51:26 <fizzie> Fountains generate snakes to kill you. :p
23:52:11 <fizzie> They can do a lot of other things too, though.
23:52:19 <fizzie> Like a water demon. :p
23:52:22 <alise> This water's no good! The fountain dries up!
23:52:28 <alise> Each item in your inventory has 1/5 chance of being cursed outright; your hunger is increased and your constitution is abused.
23:52:37 <alise> ais523: how fucked am I?
23:52:59 <ais523> at least, that doesn't screw you up too badly early game
23:53:01 <alise> i thought it was a Good Thing
23:53:02 <ais523> it's much worse late on
23:53:13 <alise> i wonder how much of my stuff is poisoned, yay
23:53:38 <alise> ais523: what's the thing you're /meant/ to do with fountains?
23:53:50 <ais523> they're situationally useful for dipping things in
23:53:53 <fizzie> You can Excaliburize swords in there, under certain conditions.
23:53:58 <alise> "Fountain quaffing is the specific practice of immediately quaffing from every fountain you find, in the hope of releasing a water demon and getting an early wish. In a lesser form, most inexperienced players will unintentionally engage in this behavior; this is unfortunate as most fountain quaffers die after a few hundred turns, but those with experience don't mind because they can just start again."
23:54:47 <fizzie> You have good luck (I mean the real-world sense, not the game-attribute sense) there: it's 1/30 to get the cursing thing. (Many others are also negative, though you *can* find gems and such too.)
23:54:47 <alise> You displaced Felix. Click! Felix triggers something.--More--
23:54:54 <alise> You are hit by a boulder! The boulder misses Felix.
23:54:59 <alise> STUPID FUCKING CAT
23:55:12 <fizzie> Aren't cats supposed to be agile and not boulder-trap-triggering sort?-)
23:55:13 <alise> fizzie: by good luck do you mean terrible luck?
23:55:30 <alise> fizzie: *the boulder-trap-triggering sort
23:55:37 <fizzie> I may have meant to write "terrible" there.
23:55:46 <alise> it's better if you didn't intend to
23:55:54 <fizzie> (I am not entirely undrunken at the moment, sorry about that.)
23:56:09 <fizzie> ((Is that even a word?))
23:56:20 <alise> Do you normally use nested parentheses when drunk?
23:56:55 <fizzie> I sometimes use them when sober (that's the word I was looking for there), but that's not proper nesting, to do ((x)) like that.
23:57:14 <alise> It's ... autonesting!
23:57:20 <alise> fizzie: What is your opinion on crabs?
23:57:38 <Sgeo> There is a difference between (x) and ((x))
23:57:44 <Sgeo> So surely you mean ((x)) when you say ((x))
23:57:49 <alise> How quickly should I eat after I start to feel hungry? ais523?
23:57:54 <alise> I can never judge how serious it is.
23:58:13 <ais523> alise: generally, you should eat nonpermafood whenever you find it
23:58:18 <ais523> and permafood, you can wait until you become Weak
23:58:21 <Sgeo> Unless you're satiated
23:58:25 <ais523> although eating it at Hungry is fine
23:58:30 <alise> ais523: ok, i'll wait
23:58:35 <alise> i only have one ration i know to be uncursed
23:58:39 <alise> d - an uncursed food ration
23:58:40 <alise> i - 2 food rations
23:58:40 <alise> k - a tripe ration
23:58:56 <fizzie> There was something bad about walking around when satiated, wasn't there?
23:59:05 <alise> two downstairs; one will go to somewhere small, right?
23:59:37 <fizzie> The mines would be the first branchy point, wouldn't it?
23:59:43 <Sgeo> Small relative to the rest of the dungeon
23:59:49 <Sgeo> But not "small" in normal terms
23:59:56 <alise> Valkyrie needs food, badly! You stop searching.
23:59:56 <alise> VALKYRIE CAN HAS CHEEZBURGR
00:00:02 <alise> the uncursed food ration is rotten <3
00:00:21 * Sgeo barfs on alise
00:00:30 <alise> Why ... thank you ...
00:00:56 <alise> You know, <3 doesn't mean I actually love it
00:01:24 <alise> ais523: I have very poor vision; I see random things outside my vision.
00:01:26 <alise> This would be the mines?
00:01:40 <Sgeo> In tiles, the walls would be strange
00:01:53 <ais523> your visible-light vision only stretches one square
00:01:59 <alise> ais523: Mines are bad, right? At least for morons like me.
00:02:03 <alise> ais523: also, I see walls further
00:02:03 <ais523> but you have infravision, which sees warm-bodied animals at a much greater range
00:02:11 <ais523> and they're slightly harder than the main dungeons
00:03:29 <fizzie> If your hunger is <200 (hungry is 150, so pretty close to it) and eat while hallu, the message is the rather nice "Oh wow, like, superior, man!" (instead of the usual "hit the spot" one).
00:03:50 <fizzie> (Though in fact just about all the hallucinating messages are great.)
00:04:03 <alise> Is there a way to use the hallucinating messages constantly but not have the other effects?
00:04:22 <Sgeo> alise, there's a permahallu thing that you can compile in
00:04:26 <Sgeo> But you get "other effects"
00:04:34 <alise> ais523: AceHack feature request.
00:05:06 -!- Flonk has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.8/20100722155716]).
00:05:25 <alise> 2 food rations or a trip ration; any suggestions as to which is likely to be safest?
00:06:09 <Sgeo> tripe is generally for animals I think
00:06:20 <alise> Om nom nom food ration
00:06:21 <fizzie> Tripe-eating hallu-msg: "Tastes great! Less filling!"
00:06:56 <alise> My "map out the whole level before descending" strategy isn't a very good one, is it?
00:07:25 <fizzie> People do the map-everything; I don't strictly adhere to it, but mostly.
00:08:05 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
00:08:25 <fizzie> (Oh, it's only "tastes great" if it would taste great: maybe_polyd(is_orc(youmonst.data), Race_if(PM_ORC)). The usual "Yak - dog food!" is not changed.
00:09:07 <alise> Ooh, a wand. ...Wands are good, right?
00:09:29 <fizzie> As long as it's not a wand of cancellation you're stuffing in your BOH.
00:09:40 <Sgeo> alise, don't zap it at yourself
00:09:44 <Sgeo> BOH = Bag of Holding
00:09:54 <fizzie> Right, sorry, Holding with a capital eich.
00:09:54 <Sgeo> They die when you put /cancel in
00:10:21 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:10:39 <alise> Uh, looks like Felix didn't want to follow me down.
00:10:44 <alise> Should I go and catch em or will e come?
00:11:06 <fizzie> It will not come, and may go un-tame if you leave it for too long.
00:11:08 <Sgeo> Go and catch him
00:11:18 <Sgeo> He needs to be next to you when you descend
00:12:14 <alise> Do, what do I do?!
00:12:20 <alise> I don't even know what a gnome lord IS.
00:13:18 <fizzie> It's just a gnome with a superiority complex.
00:13:27 <fizzie> Whack it with something sharp?
00:13:29 <alise> It means I'm in Minetown, doesn't it?
00:13:45 <alise> But I have a lot of vision -- I can see . many squares away.
00:14:03 <Sgeo> Don't drink from the fountain.. especially if it's about to dry up
00:14:11 <Sgeo> You should be warned
00:14:24 <alise> Sgeo: Yeah, I just quaffed a fountain before then remembered that's the thing you /shouldn't/ do
00:15:25 <alise> fizzie: Is it possible to get gnome lords outside of minetown?
00:15:34 <fizzie> I would think so, yes.
00:15:44 <alise> And will a long sword dispose of one?
00:15:49 <fizzie> But you get a whole lot of Gs in the mines.
00:16:04 <fizzie> They're not especially tough, if I remember right.
00:16:05 <alise> Wait, I already have it equipped.
00:16:17 <alise> fizzie: I can see .s more than one square away; so not Minetown, right?
00:16:36 <fizzie> The mines can be lit up sometimes.
00:16:42 <alise> What? You can have Pestilence as a pet?
00:16:45 <alise> fizzie: Okay, rephrase: How can I tell?!
00:16:57 <Sgeo> alise, in Debug mode, definitely
00:17:19 <fizzie> If it has square rooms (and is not actually in the town bit), it's not the mines.
00:17:19 <alise> Sgeo: this is from an ascension
00:17:35 <alise> Sgeo: someone ascended while having pestilence as a pet.
00:17:39 <alise> fizzie: square = rectangular?
00:17:51 <fizzie> The normal dungeony stuff.
00:17:53 <alise> Really attack the gnome lord? [yn] (n)
00:17:56 <alise> That sounds ominous.
00:17:59 <Sgeo> Squares can hold exactly 1 dragon. They can hold 1 kitten
00:18:06 <Sgeo> alise, means it's peaceful
00:18:10 <fizzie> Or at least non-hostile.
00:18:14 <alise> Okay. I'll just walk around it then.
00:19:09 <alise> Any ... easy ... way to undo that?
00:19:28 <fizzie> (If you went through the normal mines and arrived a place with regular rooms, that's the minetown. I'm not sure which one you wanted to distinguish.)
00:19:59 <alise> fizzie: I was just trying to avoid anything that wasn't regular dungeon.
00:20:07 <alise> Anyway, yeah, Lycantrophy.
00:20:40 <alise> Cool, I'm going to turn into a rat. The most exciting werecreature there is.
00:20:46 <fizzie> You can pray, if it's safe in general.
00:20:51 <alise> You turn into a wererat! You can no longer hold your shield!--More--
00:20:54 <alise> fizzie: So, just #pray?
00:21:02 <alise> Cool, I find I must drop my weapon.
00:21:05 <fizzie> It's a "major problem' and will be fixed ~first.
00:21:12 <alise> Use the command #monster to summon help.--More-- ;; what?
00:21:18 <alise> You can't even move a handspan with this load!
00:21:25 <alise> fizzie: #pray would be a good idea now wouldn't it?
00:21:34 <fizzie> You can summon more rats if you want.
00:21:46 <alise> fizzie: That sounds fun, but I can't move without dropping things, and I don't even have a shield or weapon.
00:21:51 <fizzie> If it's been long enough from your last prayer session.
00:21:57 <alise> I haven't ever prayed.
00:22:07 <alise> *I haven't ever prayed -- might have something to do with the fact that this is only level 5.
00:22:56 <fizzie> Holy water will also unlycanthropize you, if you happen to have some around. But it's useful for blessing things too.
00:23:12 <alise> Y an apelike creature (monkey) [seen: infravision]
00:23:25 <alise> I just killed a great ape; go me.
00:23:46 <alise> Well, okay, so monkeys aren't great apes.
00:23:56 <fizzie> Monkeys steal stuff; that's annoying.
00:24:03 <alise> Yeah. Fuck monkeys!
00:25:23 <alise> The pony kicks! The pony bites!
00:25:43 <alise> I think I'm going to die ... from a pony!
00:25:51 <alise> Nope, I killed it. Phew.
00:26:19 <alise> Felix suddenly disappears! -- he's dead now, isn't he.
00:26:46 <fizzie> He might have fallen through a hole, I'd guess.
00:27:06 <alise> ^ a trap (teleportation trap)
00:27:15 <alise> He's gone, isn't he.
00:27:22 <fizzie> Then he's just elsewhere on the same level.
00:27:31 <alise> Better find him quick.
00:27:44 <alise> fizzie: Okay, there are Gs EVERYWHERE. This is surely minetown -- but I didn't go through any mines!
00:28:01 <alise> Or is it just the mines?
00:28:15 <alise> Oh, there aren't /that/ many gnomes.
00:28:19 <alise> Can't be the mines.
00:28:59 <alise> Oh, he's right there.
00:29:14 <fizzie> The minetown is easy to recognize, since it has one of the N (where N is small) fixed alternative maps in the middle (largest) part.
00:30:04 <fizzie> Anyway, if you saw those two downstairs, went down one, and it was still just dungeony, you're still in the main branch.
00:30:15 <alise> I only saw one downstairs.
00:30:22 <alise> I couldn't find another; but I didn't look very hard.
00:30:25 <Ilari> Just be careful, sometimes Gnomes carry wands of death... :->
00:30:38 <alise> But there was only one G on the last level; Wikihack says there should have been loads, so there we go.
00:31:12 <fizzie> The mines are very different-looking, with irregularish walls and so on.
00:31:31 <alise> Yeah, this is just an usually G'ish level of the regular dungeon, I think.
00:32:11 <fizzie> A gnome infestation is no laughing matter!
00:32:54 <fizzie> You might consider the services of a gnomerminator.
00:32:58 <alise> Things that are here:
00:32:59 <alise> ┌───┐ a dark potion
00:32:59 <alise> │···│ ┌────────┐ ┌─────── a two-handed sword
00:32:59 <alise> │····##########·········│ │>······ --More--
00:34:40 <fizzie> Don't break the mirror ("looking glass"), it's seven years (or -2) of bad luck.
00:35:37 <fizzie> You can apply it to yourself for a silly message, though.
00:37:08 <alise> You feel your magical energy drain away! Felix bites the orc zombie.--More--
00:38:33 <alise> Anti-magic field; fun.
00:38:39 <fizzie> It just decrements yor energy ("MP") a bit.
00:38:47 <alise> Felix! Come next to the fucking downstairs.
00:39:00 <Sgeo> Prosituting stairs?
00:39:12 <alise> Sgeo: You know, every time I curse you don't have to make a sexual joke.
00:39:18 <fizzie> Pick up all the whistles you see; a magical one is very useful for pet-management.
00:40:02 <alise> Chain mail. That's gotta be heavy.
00:40:09 <alise> I can probably drop a lot of these weapons, right?
00:40:13 <alise> +0 dagger, orcish dagger ...
00:40:41 <alise> *You know, you don't have to make a sexual joke every time I curse.
00:42:04 <alise> I NEED DROPPING OPINIONS, I AM UNABLE TO MAKE DECISIONS ON MY OWN
00:42:28 <Sgeo> alise, you're turning into me?
00:42:38 <ais523> alise: you don't generally need a huge variety of weapons
00:42:50 <alise> +1 long sword, +0 dagger, katana, orcish dagger, two-handed sword, scimitar
00:42:56 <alise> which are droppable, which are keepers?
00:43:07 <alise> i /could/ google it, but asking people feels less like cheating
00:43:20 <alise> (wrt people-over-google, not ask-ais523)
00:43:40 <ais523> alise: katana and long sword are the only usable ones as melee weapons
00:43:50 <ais523> the daggers make decent thrown weapons
00:44:06 <ais523> katanas are better, but you can make the long sword into Excalibur
00:44:09 <fizzie> Also, katanas are just better, according to tvtropes.
00:44:29 <alise> ais523: I'll drop one of the daggers -- orcish > +0, right?
00:44:47 <ais523> orcish stuff is worse than plain
00:44:53 * Sgeo doesn't see alise as particularly lawful
00:44:59 <alise> Sgeo: but my valkyrie is
00:45:00 <fizzie> Trust the orcs to never make anything right.
00:45:03 <ais523> but if you're using them as thrown weapons, you probably want more than one
00:45:09 <alise> ais523: might just dropping stuff make bad guys pick it up?
00:45:25 <ais523> yes, but it's not normally worth worrying about
00:45:34 <fizzie> I tend to keep only one dagger for floating eye -throwing, but it's a bit awkward to pick it up always.
00:45:38 <Sgeo> That's what Elbereth's for, partially
00:45:42 <alise> Uh oh, only food I have is a tribe ration.
00:45:59 <ais523> don't eat it, it won't help
00:46:03 <ais523> you should be eating corpses more
00:46:04 <Sgeo> I just play wizards. Easy to force-bolt floating eyes
00:46:13 <alise> I also have two scrolls, three potions, a ring, a wand, and a looking glass.
00:46:18 <ais523> go into the mines and slaughter gnomes mercilessly so you can feast on their flesh
00:46:24 <alise> Those don't sound particularly heavy. I still have too many weapons.
00:46:24 <ais523> or alternatively, pick up all the free food in Sokoban
00:46:28 <ais523> assuming you dare go there
00:46:35 <alise> +1 long sword / +0 dagger / katana / orcish dagger / scimitar
00:46:37 <alise> gotta drop one or two...
00:46:49 <alise> ais523: I don't dare. But I will try to eat more corpses; it's just I'm so worried about being poisoned.
00:46:50 <ais523> also, the large box, if you still have /that/
00:46:58 <alise> Is chain mail any good?
00:47:02 <ais523> alise: you learn what's safe and what's dangerous after a while
00:47:06 <alise> No, I put down the large box immediately after I realised looting it was a better idea.
00:47:06 <ais523> and chain mail is decent, but heavy
00:47:16 <alise> Better than my uncursed +3 small shield, presumably.
00:47:27 <alise> I'll keep both, so I can drop the chain mail when prudent.
00:47:35 <fizzie> `addquote <ais523> you should be eating corpses more
00:47:47 <alise> "Felix picks up a scimitar."
00:47:49 <HackEgo> 214|<ais523> you should be eating corpses more
00:47:50 <fizzie> Okay, so the context is too obvious, but I still liked it.
00:47:50 <alise> I don't trust you with that, Felix.
00:47:52 <ais523> fizzie: that's only amusing out of context
00:47:59 <alise> ais523: and HackEgo eliminates context
00:48:01 <fungot> Selected style: nethack (NetHack 3.4.3 data.base, rumors.tru, rumors.fal)
00:48:04 <alise> fungot: be relevant
00:48:04 <fungot> alise: they say that no living thing could behold her without being turned into a trance before she spoke. ( encyclopedia mythica, ed. m.f. lindemans)
00:48:11 <alise> fungot: be relevant
00:48:11 <fungot> alise: they say that you can taste the delicious wine that much that he does " because now i know not. we can eat, and that was a favourite, and setting his lance into shivers, carrying him and shouted, " those six feet marked in chalk? much i talk, more numerous formerly than they are quite difficult to kill large animals.
00:48:25 <ais523> fungot: is delicious wine like delicious cake?
00:48:25 <fungot> ais523: they say that rubbing a glowing potion is too small to hurt or help you. now, and secretly covets moloch's position. moloch doesn't trust him, and elrond their child. ( three songs to the incautious adventurer who can cause the traveller to feel the latter his winged shoes, approached medusa while she slept and taking care not to apply genocide to shopkeepers.
00:48:42 * ais523 insists on interpreting the first sentence as innuendo
00:48:53 <fizzie> Elrond is a child of Moloch? Revelations!
00:49:07 <ais523> also, Moloch is female, it seems from that
00:49:16 <ais523> or gay and somehow capable of reproducing, I suppose
00:49:17 <alise> ais523: that must be the most stretched innuendo ever
00:49:37 <alise> also: hermaphroditic
00:51:56 <alise> Bear trap -- shit!
00:52:26 <ais523> move diagonally to escape for it
00:52:39 <ais523> (no, I don't know what the flavour justification for this is either; to teach people to use the diagonals?)
00:52:42 <alise> what a terrible bear trap
00:52:53 <ais523> although it takes several turns of moving diagonally
00:52:58 <ais523> so it is at least combat-relevant
00:53:05 <alise> "BEAR MOVE FORWARDS! BEAR MOVE BACKWARDS! BEAR MOVE LEFT! BEAR MOVE RIGHT! ... BEAR MOVE DIAGONALLY! [breaks free]"
00:53:46 <alise> I've never seen so many giant ants in my life! (Two)
00:54:36 <alise> you nethackkers have the craziest memes
00:54:46 <alise> what's your cutesy name for yourself ala pythonista?
00:54:47 <ais523> ants do get more kills than pretty much anything else, though
00:55:04 <alise> Not the createst corner I can imagine myself being in
00:55:09 <ais523> so it helps to back the winning team
00:55:24 <ais523> if they're winning, you might want to consider Elberething, even though it's a cheap tactic
00:55:25 <alise> ais523: Ha, I just killed 'em both.
00:55:41 <ais523> (also, rather like XML; if it isn't working for you, you need to do more of it)
00:56:37 <alise> ais523: don't you need something to write with and on to elbereth?
00:56:51 <alise> also, how did anyone play nethack in the days before google/wikihack?
00:56:53 <Sgeo> You can use your finger
00:57:00 <Sgeo> And write in the dust
00:57:10 <Sgeo> (on the ground)
00:57:11 <ais523> alise: they lost, generally speaking
00:57:29 * Sgeo is the founder of Wikihack
00:57:33 <alise> it feels like cheating, looking up all this useful stuff
00:57:47 <alise> Sgeo: "14 edits since October 11, 2005"
00:57:49 <alise> Sgeo: In name only ...
00:58:18 <Sgeo> Do note that I called myself "Absentee" founder
00:59:04 <alise> Very, very absentee. :P
00:59:44 <alise> NOT ANOTHER GIANT ANT!!!!
00:59:48 <ais523> alise: it tends to contain rather spurious tactics advice
00:59:56 <ais523> good on facts, but dubious on opinions
01:00:00 <alise> ais523: i'm just reading it for facts
01:00:08 <alise> ais523: anyway, take a look at http://nethack.wikia.com/wiki/Special:Contributions/Sgeo
01:00:29 <alise> ais523: he literally just created a tiny skeleton wiki in one day then disappeared for two years, returning to make four minor edits over two years
01:00:39 <alise> so he's hardly to blame ... or credit ... for anything
01:01:03 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
01:01:48 <alise> are giant ant corpses ok? apart from being incredibly unnutritional
01:01:56 <ais523> I think they're poisonous
01:02:09 <alise> <PinoBot> a | giant ant | Spd: 18 | Small | Genocidable | Lvl: 2 | AC: 3 | MR: 0 | Difficulty: 4 | Align: 0 | Small groups | Corpse wgt: 10 | Nutr: 10 | Atk: bite physical 1d4 | Flags: nolimbs, carnivore, oviparous, nohands, animal, hostile
01:02:13 <Sgeo> I may have promoted it a bit
01:03:05 <alise> ais523: felix just ate it
01:03:08 <alise> so i guess it's alright
01:03:15 <ais523> maybe it's soldier ants that are dangerous
01:03:30 * alise picks up a food ration
01:03:38 <alise> <PinoBot> a | soldier ant | Spd: 18 | Small | Genocidable | Lvl: 3 | AC: 3 | MR: 0 | Difficulty: 6 | Align: 0 | Small groups | Corpse wgt: 20 | Nutr: 5 | Conveys: poison resistance | Atk: bite physical 2d4, sting drain str 3d4 | Flags: poison resistance, nolimbs, pois, carnivore, oviparous, nohands, animal, hostile
01:03:41 <alise> "pois", so presumably
01:03:51 <alise> Vorpal: some nethack bot
01:03:58 <alise> Vorpal: asking it #!info name=monster name produces that stuff
01:04:00 <Vorpal> oh, I tend to use rodney
01:04:09 <ais523> rodney is human-edited
01:04:09 <alise> i would, but i don't know its syntax :P
01:04:18 <alise> i an imp or minor demon (manes) [seen: normal vision, infravision]
01:04:19 <ais523> alise: /msg Rodney ??soldier ant
01:04:24 <alise> I forget how bad imps are ...
01:04:24 <Vorpal> ais523, rodney gives useful info too
01:04:27 <ais523> they're both useful, but for different things
01:04:31 <ais523> also, manes are popcorn
01:04:37 <ais523> they're really easy, and really numerous
01:04:38 <alise> <alise> ??soldier ant <rodney> [silence]
01:04:40 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
01:04:45 <alise> the red threw me off
01:04:55 <ais523> purple is the color of bad in NetHack
01:04:55 <alise> ais523: I'm at level 8 but have barely done anything; am I not grinding hard enough? :P
01:05:02 <ais523> alise: that sounds about right
01:05:10 <alise> ais523: what exp should i be at, roughly?
01:05:20 <alise> Oh wow, the room is filled with imps.
01:05:25 <fizzie> <alise> Bear trap -- shit! <-- Gnaw your foot off! The solution for Real Men(tm).
01:05:31 <Vorpal> alise, the rodney info on soldier ants was rather useful IMO
01:05:40 <ais523> alise: early game it hardly matters
01:05:48 <ais523> the enemies scale to your level
01:05:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, alise: iirc you have greater chance if you try to move diagonally out of a bear trap
01:05:55 <ais523> in fact, overlevelling can be bad for that reason
01:05:58 <Vorpal> strange is the ways of the RNG
01:06:08 <alise> ring mail? pah, i have chain mail
01:06:15 <alise> Vorpal: yes, that's what ais523 told me
01:06:22 <alise> Vorpal: apparently you can only get out diagonally?
01:06:26 <alise> that's what ais523 seemed to imply
01:06:28 <ais523> orthogonally works too
01:06:40 <Vorpal> alise, I think there is a 1/32 vs. 1/5 chance or something like that
01:06:44 <alise> is never eating until weak a bad idea?
01:06:46 <Vorpal> well might not be that large
01:06:55 <Vorpal> and the numbers might not be exactly that
01:07:00 <Vorpal> alise, what made you play nethack btw?
01:07:12 <alise> Vorpal: i got it set up for a friend *shrug*
01:07:18 <alise> thus inspiring me to play
01:07:38 <alise> Peaceful dwarf! Orc! That RHYMES.
01:07:43 <alise> Vorpal: No -- Valkyrie; why?
01:07:51 <Vorpal> iirc being weak exercises WIS if you are a monk
01:07:55 <alise> "You see here 9 rocks." Ooh, I should totally pick those up.
01:08:03 <alise> The Uruk-hai hurls a swirly potion!--More--
01:08:05 <Vorpal> alise, might be Slash'EM only
01:08:06 <alise> A potion! How SCARY!
01:08:16 <alise> It broke into shards and I'm dizzy now. >_<
01:08:18 <Vorpal> alise, weak abuses str I think
01:08:22 <alise> Call a swirly potion:
01:08:37 <alise> Is "@-dizzier" a good name?
01:08:41 <Vorpal> alise, wait, it is hungry that exercises WIS
01:08:47 <alise> Vorpal: I eat as soon as I turn weak, though.
01:08:55 <alise> Vorpal: So there should be no effect.
01:09:28 <Vorpal> check the nethack wiki
01:09:33 <alise> You mean SGEO'S WIKIHACK
01:09:43 <Vorpal> alise, I meant nethack on wikia
01:09:45 <alise> Vorpal: yes, sgeo founded it
01:09:49 <fizzie> Hehe: if a foobear (owlbear or bugbear) gets caught in a bear trap, and it's not in sight (so you don't get the "is caught" message), it produces a You_hear("the roaring of an angry bear!");
01:09:54 <alise> Vorpal: which just came up
01:10:06 <alise> Vorpal: he calls himself an "absentee founder", i.e. he made 11 edits, 7 of which were done on the first day
01:10:10 <alise> and then disappeared for two years
01:10:20 <alise> we literally talked about it five seconds ago
01:10:22 <Vorpal> alise, did he ever play nethack?
01:10:29 <alise> Yes ... he plays Nethack ...
01:10:44 <Vorpal> alise, but it isn't a shitty VR thingy?
01:10:50 <Vorpal> alise, not 5 seconds, I just checked my scrollback
01:11:10 <Vorpal> some 15 minutes ago it seems
01:11:10 <alise> You know, he is reading this, and you're being pretty rude ...
01:11:18 <alise> Interest in shitty VRs != no interest in anyhing else
01:11:44 <Sgeo> It's been a while since I last touched NetHack
01:11:56 <Sgeo> Mostly because I don't want to screw up my decent game on NAO
01:12:04 <Sgeo> Also, laptopness and I haven't mastered vi keys
01:12:11 <alise> a decent, dormant game isn't very impressive
01:12:16 <alise> bah, vi keys are great
01:12:18 <alise> apart from diagonals
01:12:47 <Vorpal> I don't play on NAO, way way too much lag from here
01:12:49 <alise> coppro has lost the amend faith ;(
01:13:08 <alise> faith in my platonically-perfect editor!
01:13:11 <alise> he has turned to the Vi Side
01:13:33 <Sgeo> Does your editor even exist in any form other than in your mind yet?
01:13:47 <alise> But it was going to, at one point!
01:14:22 <Sgeo> I guess it's truly cross-platform, it has identical functionality on all platforms existent and non-existent
01:14:43 <alise> And ALL its features are incredibly powerful and intuitive!
01:14:51 <coppro> alise: no, I have not lost faith
01:14:56 <coppro> (so long as amend supports vi keys)
01:15:32 <alise> coppro: you do realise that you're not meant to use the movement keys in vi much at all?
01:15:37 <alise> you're meant to use /, w, b, etc.
01:15:52 <coppro> also Ctrl-U and Ctrl-D and the like
01:15:58 <alise> amend will have navigational features like that, but probably not direct vi key support
01:16:01 <alise> but that shouldn't really matter
01:16:04 <alise> who even knows if i'll write amend
01:16:19 <coppro> honestly, the thing I like most about vi is modality
01:16:30 <Sgeo> IMO, that's a thing to hate
01:16:33 <coppro> don't try to stuff everything into one set of keybindings, because that's dumb
01:16:42 <alise> coppro: jef raskin hates you!
01:16:50 <coppro> that and the commands accepting motions
01:17:14 <Sgeo> I assume jef raskin is some emacs guy?
01:17:19 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
01:17:25 <alise> jef raskin is possibly the greatest human-computer interaction specialist ever
01:17:33 <coppro> making the command and the text it operates independent is a good thing
01:17:36 <alise> designer of the original Macintosh, Canon Cat, author of The Humane Interface
01:17:58 <alise> later in life, advocate of zooming user interfaces and stuff
01:18:01 <coppro> Jef Raskin is right in some ways but wrong in others
01:18:08 <alise> father of aza raskin, mozilla usability guy
01:18:23 <alise> I don't like modality, but I don't like Emacs-style keyboard control either.
01:18:25 <alise> who knows what i like.
01:18:26 <coppro> simple interfaces are good. In cases where interfaces need to be easy to learn, that's good
01:18:49 <coppro> on the other hand, power users need complex interfaces because they need to do a billion things
01:19:25 <coppro> for the power user, I prefer modality to trying to stuff everything into one interface
01:19:29 <Sgeo> So, for my vaporware SL product, should I make two products? Easy-to-use, and power-user?
01:19:39 <alise> coppro: I firmly believe that simple interfaces can do complex things -- if I didn't believe that simple things can be plugged together in simple ways and create complex things, I wouldn't believe in atoms.
01:19:47 <alise> coppro: It's just a matter of finding the right one.
01:19:56 <Vorpal> <coppro> honestly, the thing I like most about vi is modality <-- and the lack of that is why I use emacs
01:20:16 <alise> Vorpal: you know, neither Sgeo's or your expression of that opinion was interesting, helpful or relevant in any way
01:20:53 <Vorpal> alise, to quote you: You know, he is reading this, and you're being pretty rude ...
01:21:06 <alise> I was criticising what you were saying; you were insulting Sgeo.
01:21:20 <Vorpal> alise, you were insulting him too
01:21:37 <alise> I was saying that both what Sgeo said and what you said was utterly pointless.
01:21:45 <Vorpal> alise, yes that is insulting
01:22:06 <alise> Vorpal: You're an idiot who doesn't understand what "insulting" means. See, only the first half of that sentence was insulting. Now just stop bothering me.
01:22:12 <alise> ais523: what do I call a swirly potion i know nothing about?
01:22:25 <alise> Call a swirly potion:
01:22:26 <ais523> it's just giving you the chance to name it as it just broke
01:22:29 <ais523> and you couldn't otherwise
01:22:34 <Vorpal> alise, you fail to see what is insulting to some. Now shut up.
01:23:05 <alise> Vorpal: Insulting is when I say something rude to you. "You just said something irrelevant" is not insultING, even if you are insulted; because only personal comments can be insults and therefore insulting.
01:23:39 <alise> Vorpal: Until you grasp this basic definition, please do not claim offence, as it is certainly not the most offensive thing I have said about you and it is definitely not as offensive as some things you have said about me; you are just looking for an argument.
01:23:46 <Vorpal> I disagree, but I'm not going to discuss this further with you.
01:24:20 <alise> You know, trying to seem like the More Mature Party by tacking on peaceful retreat after peaceful retreat is really opaque.
01:24:25 <Vorpal> there, no longer bothered by alise
01:24:26 <alise> The Uruk-hai shoots 2 poisoned orcish arrows!--More--
01:24:34 <alise> ais523: this uruk-hai is irritating.
01:24:48 <alise> Oh, announcing ignores, how wonderful. As if I even care what Vorpal says to me ...
01:25:08 <alise> ais523: first he threw a potion at me, then poisoned me ... he's quite a while away, what should I do? Throw a dagger?
01:25:28 <ais523> that's what they're fore
01:25:58 <alise> Felix yowls! The orcish dagger hits Felix!--More--
01:26:22 <alise> ais523: How do you do Elbereth again?!
01:26:29 <alise> And ... Uruk-hais won't respect it, will they?
01:26:52 <alise> ha, just as I Elberethed Felix finished him off.
01:27:01 <alise> poisoned orcish arrows sound good to throw around
01:27:07 <alise> ANOTHER URUK-HAI?!
01:27:22 <alise> ais523: there's a penalty for excessive Elberething, isn't there?
01:27:30 <alise> Something is written here in the dust. You read: "Fl|e-cth".
01:27:31 <ais523> but it doesn't save you from ranged attacks
01:27:31 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
01:27:33 <alise> That's not quite what I wrote ...
01:27:39 <ais523> it corrupts if you fight from the square
01:27:45 <ais523> also naturally over time if you stand on the square at all
01:27:50 <alise> are uruk-hai shields any good? i guess not compared to chain mail
01:27:56 <ais523> you can stack armour and shield
01:28:28 <Sgeo_> Why would a DOWNLOADED avi glitch?
01:28:43 <alise> ais523: what are iron shoes?
01:28:49 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
01:28:52 <alise> sounds like they wouldn't be so good for walking
01:28:55 <alise> ais523: sounds rubbish
01:29:10 <ais523> quite a lot of items are
01:29:13 <alise> Another Uruk-hai? Sheesh ...
01:29:17 <ais523> but they're the most protective of all shoes
01:29:24 <alise> w - a -1 chain mail (being worn)
01:29:28 <alise> That ... that isn't very good, is it?
01:29:33 <ais523> it's less good than normal chain mail
01:29:34 <alise> Is that actually hurting me?
01:29:38 <alise> c - an uncursed +3 small shield (being worn)
01:29:38 <alise> w - a -1 chain mail (being worn)
01:29:40 <alise> Double protection!
01:29:45 <ais523> no, it's beneficial, just not as much as normla
01:30:40 <alise> how clever is drinking a random potion to get back health, on average?
01:30:53 <alise> ... and does eating food bring back health? Wow, I need to pay more attention.
01:30:55 <ais523> prayer works better, if you haven't done so recently
01:31:01 <ais523> and no, most food doesn't heal
01:31:07 <alise> The last time I prayed was when I was lycanthropic, a few levels ago.
01:31:09 <ais523> (you can pray for health if on below 1/7 of your max)
01:31:19 <alise> Experience level 7, so that's okay; 13 HP now.
01:32:43 <alise> I hear crashing rock, fun fun.
01:32:52 <alise> ais523: are things meant to suddenly get difficult on level 8?
01:32:55 <Sgeo_> You can make permanent Elbereths
01:33:07 <ais523> alise: it's the average of your XL and dlvl that matters
01:33:24 <alise> ais523: exp 7, dlvl 8
01:33:25 <Sgeo_> Write in the ground with fire or lightning (lightning.. makes you what you now are)
01:33:37 <alise> Sgeo_: not blind any more
01:34:34 <alise> I wonder if maybe I should run.
01:35:57 <alise> He deleveled me! The bastard!
01:36:38 <alise> FELIX! Stop fighting that dwarf!
01:36:53 <alise> ais523: is dwarvish stuff good?
01:37:00 <ais523> yes, butter than normal
01:37:22 <alise> ah, they're so butter.
01:37:39 <alise> ais523: i don't need weapons -- short sword, mattock -- but are their cloaks, iron helms any good?
01:38:40 <alise> i should probably use the google
01:40:36 <alise> ais523: hmm, dwarvish cloaks seem crap
01:40:55 <alise> dwarvish iron helms seem quite good?
01:40:56 <ais523> but they provide 33% protection against things like level drain and poison
01:41:01 <alise> oh, that sounds nice
01:41:02 <ais523> dwarvish helms are good, yes
01:41:11 <ais523> alise: you can get more than 33% with various other cloaks
01:41:15 <ais523> but 33% is still better than nothing
01:41:21 <alise> are dwarvish mattocks worth keeping?
01:41:32 <ais523> they're heavy, two-handed, and dig through walls
01:41:37 <ais523> normally no, but it depends on your playstyle
01:41:43 <ais523> also, inaccurate but do massive damage when they hit
01:42:02 <alise> i like anything that gets me out of a situation quickly
01:42:06 <alise> cloak and iron helm it is, then
01:43:28 <alise> ais523: if i'm having difficulty on a level, best to stay on it until i'm confident, yeah?
01:43:32 <alise> it's just that i'm a bit low on food.
01:43:40 <ais523> Sokoban's a good place to aim if you're low on food
01:43:45 <ais523> but I know you hate the place
01:43:50 <alise> yes, but I'll never get out of sokoban
01:44:06 <Vorpal> <ais523> it corrupts if you fight from the square <-- not if burned
01:44:15 <alise> *sigh* I wish kobold corpses weren't poisonous. Mummy wrapping? Sheesh.
01:44:19 <fizzie> If there's no pick-axe around and you desperate to dig into something, a dwarvish mattock is fine too. (But it's heavier to lug around than a regular pick-axe.)
01:44:25 <ais523> mummy corpses are worse than poisonous
01:44:28 <ais523> they're a delayed instadeath
01:44:34 <Vorpal> fizzie, wand of digging
01:44:40 <alise> ais523: sweet. any cure?
01:44:49 <ais523> a few, but they're rare
01:44:53 <ais523> prayer is the only common one
01:45:03 <alise> Vorpal discovers that he's ignoring me
01:45:06 <alise> is utterly shocked by this fact
01:45:15 <ais523> Vorpal: apart from unihorn and prayer, the other cures for foodpois are really obscure
01:45:25 <ais523> ignoring people tends to mean you miss half the conversation...
01:45:34 <Vorpal> ais523, no I meant, delayed instadeath from mummy corpses
01:45:44 <ais523> alise: yes, the cures are rare
01:45:51 <ais523> can you name a common one that isn't unihorn/prayer?
01:46:13 <Vorpal> ais523, I can't even think of any other one
01:46:26 <Vorpal> ais523, well lizard for cockatrice
01:46:40 <ais523> err, that's nothing to do with foodpois
01:46:48 <Vorpal> ais523, no, with instadeath
01:46:51 <Vorpal> ais523, which is what I meant
01:46:59 <ais523> Vorpal: the game has /more than one instadeath/
01:47:14 <Vorpal> ais523, you never answered my question about mummies above
01:47:30 <Vorpal> ais523, which was (reworded) "what sort of delayed instadeath from mummy corpses cause?"
01:47:42 <Vorpal> ais523, as instadeath?
01:47:50 <ais523> foodpois is a delayed instadeath
01:47:57 <ais523> this is, if you eat them
01:48:07 <Vorpal> ais523, so what are the rare cures for it
01:48:26 <ais523> eucalyptus, some forms of polyself
01:48:32 <alise> ais523: if I go upstairs, will there be food, even if i previously vanquished the level?
01:48:32 <ais523> higher-end healing potions
01:48:37 <ais523> cure sickness the spell
01:48:38 <Vorpal> well yeah polyself would work
01:48:42 <ais523> alise: corpses, and only in small amounts
01:48:51 <Vorpal> doesn't it against green slime?
01:48:55 <alise> ais523: good enough
01:49:07 <alise> ais523: actually, just went back up and can't see any corpsular things...
01:49:09 <Vorpal> ais523, why eucalyptus?
01:49:12 <ais523> Vorpal: it works against absolutely everything in the game, depending on which form you pick
01:49:14 <alise> ais523: probably best to descend downwards
01:49:17 <ais523> Vorpal: because it's a foodpois cure
01:49:22 <alise> ais523: i'm hungry and need food urgently
01:49:27 <Vorpal> ais523, ... right, why is it?
01:49:38 <Vorpal> ais523, is it in real life?
01:49:39 <ais523> because if you eat it, you're no longer foodpoisoned
01:50:02 <Vorpal> ais523, I was trying to ascertain why they selected eucaluptus for it
01:50:03 <alise> You feel that eating the large dog was a bad idea.
01:50:23 <alise> ais523: what did i do...
01:50:27 <alise> ais523: and why am I still hungry?
01:50:35 <ais523> and you're hungry as it didn't provide much nutrition
01:50:39 <alise> what's going to happen to me?
01:50:42 <alise> how painful will my death be?
01:50:51 <ais523> you annoy monsters for the rest of the game
01:50:54 <alise> and hey, the koreans do it!
01:50:58 <alise> ais523: How badly?
01:51:00 <ais523> although, as a valkyrie, you get stealth which cancels it out
01:51:03 <ais523> so hardly badly at all
01:51:05 <ais523> although there's no cure
01:51:08 <alise> ais523: Wow, that's awful.
01:51:11 <ais523> well, no plausible cure
01:51:13 <alise> ais523: Just eating one thing can impair you for the whole game?
01:51:17 <alise> Implausible cures sound good.
01:51:32 <ais523> gremlin attack at night removes one of your intrinsic abilities
01:51:42 <ais523> there's a small chance it's agg monster rather than something you actually wanted
01:51:51 <ais523> most of the time, they just remove your cold res or whatever
01:52:17 <Vorpal> ais523, is there equal chance for all intrinsics?
01:52:41 <alise> ais523: so how much is this impairing my chance at ascension, taking it as read that i'm a bad player anyway? (even though it's a very low probability, how much has it been damaged?)
01:53:02 <ais523> your pet will be less tolerant of abuse, that's pretty much the only effect
01:53:08 <alise> I'd never abuse Felix! :<
01:53:10 <ais523> because stealth cancels out the others
01:53:18 <ais523> alise: didn't you hit him/her with a dagger earlier?
01:53:22 <alise> ais523: once; and that was a mistake
01:53:29 <alise> but only that time, and i'll be more careful next time
01:53:42 <alise> ais523: You can't have two pets, can you?
01:53:47 <ais523> you can, but it's a pain
01:53:52 <alise> ais523: BUT KITTENS.
01:53:57 <ais523> you can have pretty much unlimited numbers
01:53:57 <alise> I want 50 kittens.
01:54:05 <alise> is there a record for number of pets?
01:54:08 <alise> I will beat it. With kittens.
01:54:25 <ais523> record's probably in the hundreds, or even higher
01:54:36 <alise> anyone ascended with ridiculous numbers of pets?
01:54:43 <ais523> most you can ascend with is 9
01:54:50 <alise> why? limited space?
01:54:50 <ais523> it's probably been done, but 8 is more common as 9 is kind-of awkward
01:54:54 <ais523> yep, limited space round the altar
01:55:06 <alise> ais523: gotta be nice having all those pets though
01:55:15 <alise> little to no worry if one disappears, very efficient monster-killing machines
01:55:19 <ais523> most people find them an annoyance
01:55:34 <alise> You are carrying too much to get through.
01:55:37 <alise> that's my signal to drop shit
01:55:46 <alise> y - 14 poisoned orcish arrows ;; they're not that heavy, are they?
01:56:00 <alise> uncursed +3 small shield, -1 chain mail, +0 dwarvish cloak, +0 iron helm
01:56:04 <alise> I think I'll drop the shield
01:56:10 <Sgeo_> Someone once tried to dig as much as possible, polymorph rocks into gems, and ascend
01:56:21 <alise> are looking glasses heavy?
01:56:28 <alise> & what do they do? identify scrolls or something?
01:56:31 <Sgeo_> And one stupid mistake ruined everything
01:56:38 <alise> Sgeo_: for what purpose?
01:56:43 <Sgeo_> looking glass ... as in mirror?
01:56:51 <ais523> Sgeo_: heh, DeathOnAStick?
01:56:54 <alise> u - a looking glass
01:56:56 <alise> As in looking glass.
01:57:00 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, I done that, Have about 20 dilithium crystals in my current game
01:57:02 <ais523> alise: monsters can be scared by their own reflection
01:57:08 <ais523> or worse, if their gaze does something interesting
01:57:08 <alise> ais523: that sounds hideously pointless
01:57:10 <Sgeo_> Well, mirros are good against one particular named monster
01:57:21 <ais523> most NetHack items are rather situational
01:57:25 <alise> ais523: worth keeping, or ... ?
01:57:32 <ais523> meh, you'll find another by the time you need it
01:57:48 <alise> do i really need 20 arrows? :-)
01:58:02 <ais523> not if you don't have a bow :)
01:58:18 <alise> i'll drop the 6 unpoisoned ones
01:58:21 <Sgeo_> alise, if you want to bring pets with you, especially if they're carrying something valuable, be sure to be careful what potions you drink on level 1
01:58:27 <alise> ais523: i can still throw them though
01:58:31 <alise> ais523: and they seem to hit well enough
01:58:32 <fizzie> Can you do any damage with a hand-thrown arrow?
01:58:38 <alise> Sgeo_: I'm on level 9; a bit late for that now.
01:58:44 <alise> I've drunk no potions so far out of cowardice.
01:58:49 <alise> fizzie: Well, I don't know, but they've hit.
01:58:52 <Sgeo_> You'll be back to level 1
01:58:53 <alise> fizzie: Maybe the poisoned ones do more.
01:59:01 <alise> Sgeo_: Gasp, that sounds so unlikely.
01:59:17 <alise> Sgeo_: Maybe I should pick up all the valuable stuff my pet has before doing anything dangerous :P
01:59:34 <Sgeo_> My point was a bit different
01:59:58 <Sgeo_> There are certain potions that when cursed, take on a more literal meaning
02:00:16 <Sgeo_> If you want to go somewhere with pets, you want to not do that literal meaning, especially if it's irreversible
02:00:23 * Sgeo_ likes being cryptic
02:00:23 <alise> I don't mind spoilers.
02:00:31 <alise> I know I'd never beat the game without them.
02:00:41 <Sgeo_> Cursed potion of gain level == you go up through the ceiling
02:00:42 <ais523> alise: "potion of gain level" normally moves your experience level up
02:00:47 <ais523> when cursed, it moves your /dungeon/ level up
02:00:51 <ais523> so DOAS went from level 1... to level 0
02:01:01 <Sgeo_> Only possible when you have the Amulet
02:01:01 <ais523> past the point of no return, and leaving all his gems behind
02:01:03 <alise> ais523: thus quitting?
02:01:14 <Sgeo_> Going to the endgame
02:01:17 <ais523> he had the Amulet, so it just started the endgame
02:01:24 <Sgeo_> Normally, this is good, as it ensures that you have the real amulet
02:01:35 <alise> Sgeo_: you ever ascended?
02:01:39 <ais523> Sgeo_: that's an ingenious way to ID the amulet
02:01:44 <Sgeo_> Never even came close
02:01:46 <alise> not a very strong senes of know
02:01:56 <alise> ais523: what happens if you offer a plastic amulet to your god? wrath?
02:02:01 <ais523> all sorts of bad things
02:02:08 <ais523> wrath is involved, but I think it isn't even just that
02:02:08 <Sgeo_> I think that's the worse sin you can possibly do
02:02:15 <alise> i meant wrath in a general sense
02:02:25 <ais523> Sgeo_: nah, exploding a god's high altar is the worst sin you can possibly do
02:02:31 <Sgeo_> I think worse then smiting
02:02:37 <Sgeo_> You can survive smiting
02:02:37 <alise> DAMMIT BY SMITING I MEANT THE REAL-WORLD SENSE
02:03:03 <Sgeo_> NetHack shouldn't have the power to anger your real-world god if you have one
02:03:42 <ais523> alise: yes, the god does do bad things to you, quite possibly an expression of anger
02:03:45 <ais523> is that what you wanted?
02:03:59 <Sgeo_> Where's the file with offer stuff?
02:05:33 <Sgeo_> It makes your god angry, but not smity, afaict
02:05:39 <Sgeo_> And makes you unlucky
02:05:39 <fizzie> The wide-angle disintegration beam is quite awesome.
02:05:50 <Sgeo_> http://nethack.wikia.com/wiki/Pray.c#Sacrificing_the_Amulet_of_Yendor
02:06:12 <alise> ais523: Do I really need an uncursed +3 small shield if I have a -1 chain mail, a dwarvish {+0 cloak and a +0 iron helm}?
02:06:29 <ais523> the shield is lighter and better than all three of the other items
02:06:35 <ais523> so it depends on if you really want to use your other hand for something
02:06:59 <alise> 1285. pline("A cloud of %s smoke surrounds you...",
02:06:59 <alise> 1286. hcolor((const char *)"orange"));
02:07:06 <alise> what does hcolor do, return the colour name in that colour?
02:07:15 <alise> ais523: I just want to shed weight.
02:07:15 <ais523> when hallucinating, you can't see colours straight
02:07:23 <ais523> drop the chain mail to shed weight
02:07:26 <ais523> assuming you can even take it off
02:07:35 <alise> how do you unwear...?
02:08:17 <alise> ais523: I appear to not be able to take it off. Halp!
02:08:30 <fizzie> (Longish paste, 8 lines.)
02:08:31 <ais523> this is why you don't put on random armour without cursechecking it...
02:08:35 <fizzie> 521. if (!Disint_resistance)
02:08:35 <fizzie> 522. fry_by_god(resp_god);
02:08:35 <fizzie> 524. You("bask in its %s glow for a minute...", NH_BLACK);
02:08:35 <fizzie> 525. godvoice(resp_god, "I believe it not!");
02:08:36 <alise> ais523: it's uncursed!
02:08:40 <fizzie> 527. if (Is_astralevel(&u.uz) || Is_sanctum(&u.uz)) {
02:08:43 <fizzie> 528. /* one more try for high altars */
02:08:43 <ais523> oh, take the cloak off first then
02:08:54 <fizzie> It's awesome how you can defy god.
02:08:58 <alise> ais523: nope, it is cursed.
02:09:22 <ais523> well, you're hardly likely to be able to uncurse it this early
02:09:27 <ais523> you'll just have to stick with your heavy cursed armour
02:10:41 <alise> N a naga (guardian naga hatchling)
02:11:06 <alise> ais523: am I exceedingly unlucky?
02:11:29 <ais523> no, they're pretty common earlyish
02:11:37 <ais523> both cursed stuff and nagas
02:11:48 <alise> It was easy to kill.
02:11:57 <ais523> well, it's only a hatchling
02:12:04 <alise> Yum, guardian naga hatchling corpse.
02:12:12 <alise> ais523: Ooh, an Orcale.
02:12:22 <ais523> I guessed, just from the naga hatchling
02:12:32 <ais523> and the oracle isn't particularly helpful to a spoiled player
02:12:35 <ais523> my spoilers are better than hers
02:12:50 <Sgeo_> She says some kind of ... thing if you can't pay
02:12:57 <Sgeo_> I haven't found it in the source.
02:13:25 <alise> ais523: i'm basically cheating, aren't i :(
02:13:42 <ais523> the way you're playing is fine
02:13:45 <ais523> probably more fun than the alternative
02:13:46 <Sgeo_> It's either that, or dying
02:14:00 <alise> But the Dev Team probably hate me. :P
02:14:05 <alise> ais523: is killing the oracle interesting in any way?
02:14:14 <ais523> she does fight back if you attack
02:14:24 <ais523> strangely, /angering/ her doesn't do anything bad, because her only attack is a defense
02:14:55 <alise> can I talk to her?
02:15:03 <ais523> but she'll try to charge you money
02:15:18 <alise> are the major ones any good? 850 zm
02:15:22 <alise> the minor ones are probably crap
02:15:25 <alise> i don't have that much money anyway
02:15:26 <ais523> the minor ones are crap
02:15:30 <ais523> the major ones are also mostly crap
02:15:36 <ais523> but at least you can tell what they mean
02:15:37 <Sgeo_> You can get minor ones by eating fortune cookies
02:15:48 <ais523> here, do you want a major consultation? I'll grab one from the game's sourcecode
02:15:54 <Sgeo_> You can also get lies from fortune cookies
02:16:02 <ais523> the lies are pretty amusing
02:16:19 <Sgeo_> http://nethack.wikia.com/wiki/Oracles.txt
02:16:24 <ais523> If thy wand hath run out of charges, thou mayst zap it again and again; though naught will happen at first, verily, thy persistence shall be rewarded, as one last charge may yet be wrested from it!
02:16:24 <Sgeo_> All of the major consultaions
02:16:36 <ais523> (it takes 121 zaps on average)
02:16:44 <alise> ais523: Must be pretty desperate to do that.
02:16:49 <ais523> alise: leprechauns steal gold, and do minimal damage
02:16:54 <ais523> alise: it's generally only done with wands of wishing
02:17:13 <ais523> although I've known people to wrest other wands before
02:17:24 <Sgeo_> VLC seems to have lost the ability to be not-fullscreen
02:17:32 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
02:17:44 -!- nooga has joined.
02:18:05 <alise> how do you kick again?
02:19:22 <alise> ais523: Oh my god! It looted me -- then again when I tried to chase after it!
02:19:43 <ais523> hint: if you aren't holding or standing on gold, they can't teleport
02:19:44 <alise> Can I kill it and reclaim my cash?
02:19:53 <alise> Will it be easy? Ish?
02:20:02 <alise> Also, I'm not just going to *put down all my gold* so he can take it!
02:21:22 <alise> ais523: do tripe rations help at all?
02:21:27 <ais523> alise: they're pet food
02:21:37 <alise> ais523: correction: they're my /only/ food
02:21:49 <ais523> they have negative total nutrition
02:21:49 <nooga> ffs, what are you doing
02:21:55 <alise> nooga: playing nethack
02:22:04 -!- Gregor-P has joined.
02:22:06 <alise> ais523: ok, can i survive at dlvl9/10 with only $168?
02:22:10 <alise> or should i really try and kill that l
02:22:16 <ais523> gold's mostly irrelevant
02:22:36 <nooga> i always liked the angband
02:22:44 <alise> ais523: but, then, what better way to get food than killing the leprechaun?
02:22:54 <ais523> leprechaun corpses have... side-effects
02:22:59 <alise> i am currently hungry; i ate the rest of my partially-eaten corpse before and a few turns later i got hungry again
02:23:06 <ais523> nope, permanent teleportitis
02:23:14 <ais523> a status that makes most people ragequit, even though it's technically optimal
02:23:20 <alise> ais523: you mean ... i'll just teleport everywhere?
02:23:28 <alise> or only around enemies?
02:23:31 <ais523> teleport at random, every now and then
02:23:37 <alise> why is that technically optimal?
02:23:41 <ais523> you can't turn it off, although with appropriate items or intrinsics you can control it
02:23:49 <Sgeo_> Be careful in shops
02:24:01 <Sgeo_> Leave an appropriate amount of money on the ground BEFORE picking anything up
02:24:03 <ais523> and because it takes you out of danger when injured, on average
02:24:05 <Sgeo_> Unless you want to steal
02:24:27 <ais523> the idea is: when on full health, etc, it doesn't matter where you are
02:24:30 <alise> ais523: ok, now here's my situation: all i have is pet food, there's nothing left on the level as far as I know, and I'm hungry, having just eaten a few turns ago
02:24:38 <alise> ais523: is there any hope?
02:24:43 <ais523> if you're hurt, you're in danger, and you'll probably teleport out
02:24:44 <alise> can praying solve my hunger?
02:24:47 <ais523> alise: once you become weak, pray
02:24:52 <ais523> yep, it can, but only at weak or below
02:24:58 <alise> i prayed maybe 3, 4 levels ago
02:25:05 <alise> i'm willing to risk it if the alternative is death
02:25:10 <Sgeo_> It's based on turns, I think
02:25:22 <ais523> very random, the random function involved is considered one of the most insane random distributions ever created
02:25:23 <Sgeo_> You could eat the leprechaun
02:25:29 <alise> ais523: ah yes, that one
02:25:33 <ais523> http://nethack.wikia.com/wiki/Rnz
02:25:45 <alise> ais523: if i become weak, how many turns do I have before I die, roughly but conservatively?
02:25:46 <ais523> if it helps, the median value's known to be 350 turns
02:25:56 <alise> it's definitely been more than 350 turns
02:26:05 <alise> ais523: ok, i'll walk a bit first
02:26:10 <ais523> well, 100 before you become Fainting, which tends to kill you very quickly
02:26:24 <alise> The winter wolf cub breathes frost!--More--
02:26:37 <ais523> it won't hurt you as a valk, but will hurt your potions
02:27:14 <ais523> ok, that gives you another 900 turns
02:27:22 <alise> ais523: is praying too quickly an instadeath?
02:27:33 <ais523> the seventh or eighth time, maybe
02:27:40 <alise> is it a smiting then, or harmless?
02:27:40 <ais523> but it turns off your ability to pray
02:27:51 <coppro> I have just proven that my default course of action when bored is loading slashdot
02:27:52 <ais523> first time, you can't pray successfully again until you give your god a nice enough offering
02:28:03 <ais523> a monster of level 8 or higher, 12 if chaotic
02:28:06 <coppro> I just got bored reading slashdot, so I loaded up slashdot to see if there was anything interesting
02:28:11 * Sgeo_ offers alise on an altar
02:28:13 <alise> coppro: I do that with reddit.
02:29:03 <alise> Alise the Fighter St:18/02 Dx:13 Co:18 In:10 Wi:8 Ch:7 Lawful
02:29:03 <alise> Dlvl:9 $:168 HP:44(69) Pw:8(8) AC:0 Exp:7
02:29:06 <alise> ais523: any opinions on how well i'm doing?
02:29:20 <ais523> typical early-game character, maybe playing a bit too slowly
02:29:24 <alise> and why don't winter cubs leave corpses?
02:29:28 <alise> ais523: yeah, i'm tending to map out every level
02:29:31 <ais523> it's a random chance of leaving corpses
02:29:35 <alise> coppro: yes, i did
02:29:37 <alise> coppro: is that surprising somehow?
02:29:38 <coppro> that's an accomplishment
02:29:42 <alise> i've found the game easy so far
02:29:46 * Sgeo_ is now playing Apples to Apples
02:29:47 <alise> very easy, in fact
02:29:51 <ais523> anyway, for pretty much anyone I'd say "find Sokoban, the entrance is on the level after the Oracle"
02:29:55 <coppro> heck, finding a downstair in a roguelike is typically an accomplishment
02:29:55 <ais523> "and loot all the food there"
02:30:04 <ais523> coppro: haha, given what happened earlier
02:30:08 <alise> coppro: ah, you have a low opinion of them :D
02:30:14 <alise> ais523: wait, what happened earlier? i'm starting to forget myself!
02:30:20 <alise> my impossible level 1
02:30:28 <alise> coppro: I got stuck on level 1
02:30:42 <alise> coppro: it covered almost the entire screen, had a bunch of dead-end corridors that nevertheless didn't have anything hidden
02:30:46 <ais523> alise: anyway, food generation chances in Sokoban are /very/ high
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02:30:59 <alise> coppro: apparently had a vault somewhere
02:31:00 <ais523> which is one of the reasons you tell newbies to go there, as they tend to run out of food quickly
02:31:01 <alise> (though i couldn't find it)
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02:31:08 <alise> coppro: and I could not find a downstair
02:31:12 <coppro> doesn't sokoban also start with lots of food on the ground?
02:31:21 <alise> ais523: Yes, but ... you have to do Sokoban.
02:31:28 <ais523> coppro: it's that I Was referring to
02:31:36 <ais523> alise: you could always look up a spoiler for the solutions
02:31:41 <alise> coppro: take a look: http://i.imgur.com/k06Kv.png
02:31:54 <alise> i gave up on /that/ game
02:31:54 <coppro> Sokoban isn't mandatory. It's just a ridiculously good idea
02:32:04 <alise> ais523: that really /is/ cheating, though
02:32:32 <coppro> alise: under the boulder in the west chamber?
02:32:55 <alise> coppro: wait, /under/?
02:33:10 <ais523> alise: I did suggest that a while ago
02:33:13 <ais523> and assumed you'd acted on it
02:33:15 <alise> coppro: I still have the save file if you want to try that, but you'll have to create an "alise" user or nethack will just delete it
02:33:16 <coppro> alise: sure, a boulder can be on a staircase
02:33:19 <alise> ais523: i didn't recall you suggesting that
02:35:00 <alise> ais523: haha, you're probably right too
02:36:18 <alise> ais523: i'm satiated now! hooray!
02:36:32 <alise> eating while just having prayed for food: best idea or GREATEST IDEA?
02:36:49 <alise> coppro: yeah i realise.
02:36:53 <alise> coppro: but it would have spoiled! :P
02:37:45 <alise> ais523: I'm in a pit ...
02:37:54 <ais523> keep moving, you'll climb out
02:38:03 <alise> ais523: So, I've just seen the Oracle; Sokoban's entrance is on dlvl 10, then?
02:38:08 <ais523> alise: it's always on the level below
02:38:12 <alise> ais523: what? don't contradict each other! this game is complicated enough as it is
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02:39:12 <alise> 128 gold pieces, a light brown spellbook, a black onyx ring! Score, I think?!
02:39:50 <alise> ais523: "You hear some noises." It's dark. Looks like a Miney-thing to me?
02:39:56 <alise> So the entrance to Sokoban is here, somewhere.
02:40:01 <ais523> alise: probably just an unlit room
02:40:05 <alise> are gems worthwhile?
02:40:05 <ais523> they become more common as the game goes on
02:40:10 <ais523> and gems are almost worthless
02:40:13 <alise> also, how many levels are there, again?
02:40:16 <ais523> except when they're /actually/ worthless
02:40:19 <alise> Oh no, a leprechaun!
02:40:20 <ais523> and it's random, but around 50 on the main path
02:40:31 <alise> "The leprechaun escapes upstairs!" -- Hey! He probably has my money!
02:40:43 <alise> Now, am I stupid enough to chase after him for the sake of some zorkmids?
02:40:54 <alise> ais523: where does it start getting actually hard?
02:41:08 <ais523> alise: never, if you're good enough
02:41:16 <ais523> but probably quite soon if you're inexperienced
02:41:31 <alise> ais523: presumably after dlvl 10, as this has been quite easy so far with the spoilers
02:41:47 <ais523> I'd say sometime around 15, probably
02:41:55 <ais523> or the bigroom, if it exists in your game
02:41:57 * alise thinks "Hmm, I should probably save, just in case"; realises that that won't help her in Nethack
02:42:55 <coppro> around the quest level sounds right
02:43:13 <coppro> usually I go to minetown after sokoban
02:43:49 <alise> ais523: I don't suppose Nethack features HM05?
02:44:03 <ais523> alise: water walking boots, I suppose
02:44:15 <coppro> should I be ashamed or proud that I got that right away?
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02:44:36 <alise> coppro: proud; I had to google it to remember the number, it's been a while
02:44:40 <ais523> you definitely will need levitation at some point, although you can delay that for quite a while yet
02:44:47 <alise> ais523: HM05 is Flash ...
02:44:50 <coppro> you'll probably pick up a ring anyways
02:44:53 <alise> I'm in an unlit room, you see.
02:44:56 <ais523> (surf is 3, isn't it/)
02:45:00 <alise> coppro: I have two rings.
02:45:06 <ais523> and the mines are where you go for lightsources
02:45:06 <coppro> I meant a ring of levitation
02:45:07 <alise> ais523: I think so; *it?)
02:45:11 <ais523> alise: coppro means a specific ring
02:45:17 <alise> I have a ring of wire and a ring of black onyx; not so interesting.
02:45:23 <ais523> anyway, most people just learn to live without light
02:45:25 <alise> Also a zinc wand. The worst material for a wand.
02:45:29 <ais523> you can still see most monsters, thanks to infravision
02:45:33 <ais523> alise: ID that wand, by the way
02:45:39 <ais523> engrave something with it (9 letters or less)
02:45:45 <ais523> "Elbereth" is a common choice
02:45:46 <alise> And ... with my fingers?
02:45:53 <ais523> engrave with fingers first
02:45:56 <ais523> then with wand on the same square
02:46:06 <ais523> then most of the time you can figure out what the wand is from its reaction
02:46:08 <alise> what's write again?
02:46:42 <Sgeo_> Oh, you may go blind
02:46:42 <alise> So just write Elbereth twice?
02:46:46 <coppro> 3 being surf sounds right; IIRC 2 is fly and 4 is strength. Beyond that it gets weird depending on the generation
02:46:56 <Sgeo_> alise, should be different words
02:46:58 <coppro> oh wait, you're testing a want
02:47:09 <Sgeo_> Second one Elbereth
02:47:11 <coppro> Sgeo_: that doesn't matter, does it?
02:47:15 <alise> Sgeo_: Too late; the first one was Elbereth.
02:47:18 <Sgeo_> Well, for lightning...
02:47:26 <Sgeo_> Do you really want to be blind on a non-E?
02:47:27 <ais523> Elbereth twice is fine
02:47:31 <alise> I don't care about *temporary* blindness.
02:47:39 <alise> The bugs on the floor stop moving!
02:47:51 <alise> ais523: I should hope for death, right?
02:47:52 <ais523> much more likely to be sleep
02:47:57 <coppro> sleep is useful, death is +++++ but very rare
02:47:58 <ais523> although yes, death's better
02:48:05 <alise> Any way to find out for sure?
02:48:11 <ais523> the important thing with both wands is to not catch yourself in the reflection
02:48:15 <ais523> and you'll find out first time you use it
02:48:17 <Sgeo_> Zap someone other than yourself.
02:48:22 <ais523> until then, you probably don't care which it is
02:48:25 <alise> Sgeo_: The leprechaun! (Nah.)
02:48:45 <alise> ais523: Sokoban has a high chance of making the game unwinnable if I suck at Sokoban, yeah?
02:48:55 <ais523> no, it never makes the game unwinnable
02:48:58 <ais523> because it's completely optional
02:49:04 <ais523> you may make the Sokoban branch itself unwinnable
02:49:05 <alise> ais523: but if I go in there, start doing it, get stuck --
02:49:09 <ais523> but that's no worse than just ignoring it
02:49:10 <alise> oh, you can come back out?
02:49:11 <coppro> alise: no; Sokoban is optional
02:49:17 <ais523> yes, you can go back out any time you want
02:49:17 <alise> well that's better than I thought
02:49:20 <coppro> I don't think you can make Sokoban completely unwinnable
02:49:26 <alise> How can I tell if an entrance goes to Sokoban?
02:49:29 <Sgeo_> Although you may incur luck penalties...
02:49:32 <alise> just go down it and look for -- ?
02:49:33 <coppro> you can come back with a scroll of earth/wands of striking
02:49:35 <Sgeo_> Unless there are other ways to go out?
02:49:38 <coppro> alise: Sokoban has an upstair
02:49:52 <alise> The priestess of Loki intones: "Pilgrim, you enter a sacred place!"--More--
02:49:57 <alise> coppro: just one? what if you block it off?
02:50:01 <Sgeo_> This is what money's good for
02:50:16 <alise> I have a strange foreboding feeling. Should I just, like, leave?
02:50:31 <coppro> alise: I mean that the stair to Sokoban goes up, rather than down, so you'll know it when you see it
02:50:42 <alise> coppro: indeed, I can see it.
02:50:48 <alise> now what about this preistly woman?
02:50:56 <coppro> also, if you are dumb enough to put a boulder on the upstair in Sokoban, you will have to destroy the boulder (incurring a luck penalty)
02:51:01 <Sgeo_> What happens if you donate to wrong alignment?
02:51:28 <coppro> alise: you're in a temple, you're not chaotic. You can use the altar to identify but don't do anything else
02:51:38 <alise> coppro: How many things can I identify?
02:51:47 <coppro> as much as you want, but only BUC-status
02:51:49 <alise> And will it accurately identify my wand, or just scrolls?
02:52:05 <alise> Should I just identify everything, then?
02:52:08 <coppro> basically drop your entire inventory on it
02:52:30 <coppro> whatever you do, don't attack the priest or offer to the altar
02:52:46 <alise> There is an amber flash as an orcish dagger hits the altar.
02:52:50 <alise> Is that ... am I ...?
02:53:09 <coppro> (don't both remembering; it will show up in the inventory)
02:53:28 <alise> coppro: Okay; dropped it all, apart from the stuff I'm wearing.
02:53:33 <ais523> Sgeo_: the same as donating to right alignment
02:53:38 <alise> I guess I could ID some more stuff.
02:54:22 <alise> coppro: I should just not pick up the cursed stuff, right?
02:54:30 <ais523> alise: cursed stuff is occasionally useful
02:54:33 <ais523> but normally you just discard it
02:54:47 <ais523> drop it in a corner so you don't forget where the altar is
02:55:07 <coppro> I'd try to sell it if that's an option
02:55:18 <alise> there's nobody really around
02:55:46 <coppro> there will be a bunch in minetown, you can probably unload when you head down there
02:56:04 <coppro> maybe wait to see if you can get a bag of holding from sokoban
02:56:04 <alise> okay; i should get food soon!
02:56:15 <alise> coppro: what happens if i skip sokoban, say by failing horribly?
02:56:28 <coppro> you miss out on the XP and the prize
02:56:39 <alise> that doesn't sound hugely terrible
02:56:43 <coppro> the prize is really good
02:56:52 <coppro> it's either an amulet of reflection or a bag of holding
02:57:02 <coppro> both of which are items you want to have
02:57:07 <alise> now what am I gonna do in the way of food?
02:57:18 <alise> coppro: how stupid on a scale of 1 to 1,000,000 is attacking the priest for food?
02:57:22 <ais523> pick it up off the floor, it's common in Sokoban
02:57:28 <ais523> alise: likely instadeath stupid
02:57:42 <alise> ais523: but what if i /don't/ instadie? :D
02:57:52 <ais523> then you're still in trouble
02:57:56 <alise> ais523: is it ok to explore the rest of this level before going down to sokoban?
02:57:58 <coppro> attacking a priest is a bad plan with a fully-leveled and fully-equipped character
02:58:08 <ais523> alise: Sokoban is /up/ from here
02:58:13 <ais523> and it depends on your food situation
02:58:14 <alise> ais523: right, right, whatever
02:58:18 <ais523> you can go in and out at will, remember
02:58:22 <alise> ais523: my food situation is 0, but i was satiated on the last level
02:58:28 <alise> how did you say i should discard my cursed chainmail?
02:58:41 <alise> coppro: unfortunately.
02:58:44 <ais523> oh, right, you still probably can't take that off
02:58:44 <alise> cursed -1 chainmail
02:58:51 <ais523> you could try dipping it in a fountain; that's risky, but not fatally risky
02:59:02 <coppro> you'll need holy water or a scroll of uncursing (or a fountain, as ais suggests)
02:59:04 <alise> You read: "Sparky -- he was a very good dog".
02:59:39 <alise> is there a way to transplant a savefile to nao?
02:59:50 <alise> if not, what is that telnet site that broadcasts your tty? ais523?
02:59:53 <ais523> because NAO is all about proving you aren't cheating
03:00:14 <coppro> I don't play nethack offline any more
03:00:26 <ais523> alise: there's a more complicated protocol to actually broadcast
03:00:30 <alise> coppro: you're North American; NAO isn't horribly slow for you.
03:00:31 <ais523> let me find a shellscript
03:00:36 <alise> ais523: i've done it before, it's something to do with script(1), right?
03:00:47 <alise> coppro: i'm playing very slowly, mind; in the realtime sense
03:00:50 <ais523> script -f >( cat ./ratry_login - | nc -q5 noway.ratry.ru 31337 > /dev/null ) "$@"
03:00:58 <ais523> where ratry_login contains "hello username password"
03:01:06 <alise> omg, there's no hobbit netcat on archlinux
03:01:10 <ais523> replace username and password by an actual username and password
03:01:11 <alise> ais523: how do you create a login again?
03:01:17 <alise> or is it automatic?
03:01:19 <ais523> it creates the login if it's a username it doesn't recognise
03:02:03 <alise> You feel wise! You must have been very observant.
03:02:03 <ais523> (credits: that script was written by sorear)
03:02:12 <alise> ais523: that script isn't copyrightable!
03:02:22 <ais523> I can stil avoid plagiarising it anyway
03:02:37 <ais523> plagiarism is slightly different to copyvio
03:05:48 <alise> ais523: so does that start a shell?
03:05:58 <alise> ais523: clearly not
03:06:02 <alise> $@ would be the command, I assume
03:06:02 <ais523> well, with no args it does
03:06:08 <ais523> if you give args, it runs those instead
03:07:59 <alise> head -100 /dev/random takes forever
03:08:12 <ais523> (also, why not /dev/urandom?)
03:08:12 <alise> ais523: to sha1sum it to get a password
03:08:17 <alise> ais523: because it's a password
03:08:19 <ais523> alise: heh, it hardly needs to be secure...
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03:08:52 <Sgeo_> alise, ping me if you go on NAO
03:09:17 <alise> nc: invalid option -- 'q'
03:09:33 <ais523> but has a tendency to keep running even after you've closed the terminal it was running in
03:09:36 <alise> ais523: how do you listen in?
03:10:00 <ais523> I've done that already, actually, just waiting for you to log in
03:10:01 <alise> ais523: bah, I don't have telnet :D
03:10:16 <ais523> "dinky" is your hostname?
03:11:11 <alise> ais523: can script's argument use shell stuff?
03:11:14 <ais523> alise: I know a NetHack player who plays black-on-white with colours on
03:11:14 <alise> or can it only be one word?
03:11:25 <ais523> alise: you can have multiple args, at least
03:11:34 <ais523> you might have to do sh -c in order to get actual shell parsing
03:11:44 <coppro> ais523: that would hurt my eyes
03:12:51 <alise> script -f >(cat ./ratry_login - | nc noway.ratry.ru 31337 >/dev/null) nethack
03:13:10 <ais523> presumably inside the recursively opened xterm?
03:13:27 <alise> ais523: something like that
03:13:49 <ais523> also, "sudo vi" not "sudoedit"?
03:14:09 <alise> huh, -e takes multiple arugments
03:14:42 <alise> exec uxterm -fa Mono -fs 10 +sb -bg black -fg white -title Nethack -e sh -c 'scr
03:14:42 <alise> ipt -f >(cat ./ratry_login - | nc noway.ratry.ru 31337 >/dev/null) nethack'
03:14:44 <alise> what a clusterfuck
03:14:58 <alise> let's hope it works
03:15:14 <ais523> for a moment I thought you were about to termcast recursively
03:15:23 <ais523> alise: let's hope it didn't delete your savefile
03:15:36 <ais523> I know I've done that with weird combos of nethack and script before now
03:15:53 * alise copies it to ~ just in case
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03:16:23 <alise> script finishes quickly
03:16:38 <alise> sh --run-at-startup '...'?
03:16:46 <ais523> that's what sh -c does
03:16:49 <ais523> except it exists just after
03:17:05 <ais523> I suppose you could put a ; sh in the end of your command list
03:17:15 <alise> exec uxterm -fa Mono -fs 10 +sb -bg black -fg white -title Nethack -e sh -c 'scr
03:17:15 <alise> ipt -f >(cat ./ratry_login - | nc noway.ratry.ru 31337 >/dev/null) nethack && ex
03:17:39 <alise> If the argument file is given, script saves all dialogue in file. If no
03:17:40 <alise> file name is given, the typescript is saved in the file typescript.
03:17:42 <alise> that's not what the $@ does
03:17:54 <ais523> do you have a typescript file called NetHack?
03:18:04 <ais523> I know what's happened
03:18:23 <ais523> but how can options to script come /after/ the >()
03:18:30 <ais523> my guess is that the $@ is just a mistake
03:19:56 <ais523> alise h was broadcasting nethack
03:20:02 <alise> yes, that was a test
03:20:05 <ais523> alise g seems redundant
03:20:09 <alise> sh doesn't support that syntax
03:21:10 <alise> ais523: nope, the $@ WAS right
03:22:28 <ais523> not particularly nutritional, admittedly
03:22:31 <ais523> but it's better than nothing
03:22:50 <alise> oops, i have nothing equipped
03:22:50 <ais523> try re-equipping your sword
03:23:27 <ais523> you may want to aim for Excalibur next, once you have the food situation under control
03:23:36 <alise> You can't resist the temptation to mimic a pile of gold.--More--
03:23:41 <alise> was eating that corpse a bad idea?
03:23:49 <ais523> sometimes tactically useful, too
03:23:54 <alise> wait, i'm /mimicking a dwarf/?
03:23:57 <ais523> say if monsters try to pick you up, you can ambush them
03:24:02 <alise> that's some Matrix shit nethack just pulled ther
03:24:14 <alise> yes, but it says otherwise :D
03:24:17 <alise> You now prefer mimicking a dwarf again.
03:24:19 <ais523> that isn't mimicking anything else
03:24:39 <alise> What kind of genetically-engineered mutant centipede is this?
03:25:28 <ais523> try not to hit your pet
03:25:37 <ais523> you can #chat before attacking to see if whatever's there mews
03:25:48 <ais523> and killer bee corpses are an interesting choice
03:25:55 <ais523> but also have a high chance of poison res
03:25:59 <ais523> so some people prefer to take the poison
03:26:10 <alise> sokoban doesn't have many baddies, right?
03:26:19 <ais523> and sokoban's relatively - but not completely - monsterfree
03:27:23 <alise> how long til i can see?
03:27:53 <Sgeo_> Black lights are fun!
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03:28:21 <alise> ais523: shit! i just did 200<backspace>
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03:28:29 <alise> ais523: what did that do?
03:28:46 <ais523> = go west until something interesting hapens
03:28:46 <Sgeo_> Wait, is alise on NAO?
03:28:55 <alise> telnet termcast.org
03:29:46 <alise> ais523: i'm sick of blindness
03:29:50 <Sgeo_> There are some times that you just DON'T wnat to feel what's on the floor
03:29:53 <ais523> well, it just finished
03:30:46 <alise> not worth dropping anything for that
03:31:02 <alise> the diagonal corridor
03:31:53 <Sgeo_> How can you see the ^?
03:32:02 <alise> Sgeo_: What do you mean?
03:32:05 <alise> Sgeo_: I see it with my eyes.
03:32:26 <ais523> Sgeo_: it's entirely visible
03:32:29 <Sgeo_> I meant, outside of Sokoban
03:32:29 <ais523> I don't know what you mean
03:32:34 <Sgeo_> There was a visible trap
03:32:38 <alise> because i walked into it
03:32:51 <alise> ais523: so, get the boulders into the pits, right?
03:33:06 <alise> ais523: how do i get to the other side? moving that boulder?
03:33:14 <ais523> move the leftmost boulder down one square
03:33:20 <ais523> then the top of the group of 4 to the right
03:33:23 <alise> ais523: no diagonal movement?
03:33:33 <ais523> at least, not between boulders/walls
03:33:40 <alise> wait, the top four?
03:33:44 * Sgeo_ almost made a mistake in his thoughts
03:33:54 <Sgeo_> That would have .. oh, done nothing fatal
03:33:56 <ais523> move the top of the group you're standing next to to the right
03:33:59 <ais523> the top of "that group of 4"
03:34:01 <Sgeo_> Just move this boulder right
03:34:15 <alise> ais523: til it touches the other O?
03:34:15 <ais523> two more spaces, so you can get past
03:34:24 <ais523> it's not like you can do anything else
03:34:34 <alise> down again, i presume?
03:34:35 <ais523> that one needs to move down one square
03:34:40 <Sgeo_> Wait, should there be some scrolls?
03:34:44 <ais523> now race to the good before Felix gets there
03:34:56 <ais523> Sgeo_: bottom-left; alise can't see them yet
03:35:11 <Sgeo_> Be careful with displacing your pet
03:35:22 <ais523> alise: no, wrong boulder
03:35:31 <alise> i am so terrible at sokoban
03:35:38 <ais523> try not to get Felix trapped behind the boulders
03:35:42 <Sgeo_> Don't know if that's fatal
03:35:46 <ais523> leave that one, there are spares
03:35:54 <Sgeo_> Don't displace your pet!
03:36:00 <alise> it wasn't the typing, it was the thinking
03:36:04 <ais523> there's no huge imperative not to
03:36:05 <alise> Sgeo_: i've done it thousands of times...
03:36:10 <Sgeo_> ais523, I thought he could get trapped in a pit
03:36:27 <ais523> Sgeo_: the important rule is to avoid trapping felix behind a boulder
03:36:31 <ais523> that has nothing to do with displacing
03:36:33 <alise> Hello, pony. What do you want?
03:36:35 <ais523> alise: ponies are /dangerous/
03:36:40 <ais523> it wants that melon you have, though
03:36:42 <alise> ais523: I know; I fought one a few levels ago.
03:36:44 <ais523> throw it at the pony and it'll become tame
03:36:49 <Sgeo_> I think a unicorn killed me on sokoban
03:36:56 <Sgeo_> I thess this isn't a unicorn though
03:37:12 <ais523> alise: those are scrolls of earth
03:37:13 <Sgeo_> There should be an esolang called pont
03:37:20 <ais523> also, turn on the hilite_pet option
03:37:23 <ais523> so you can tell pets from hostiles
03:37:47 <Sgeo_> I might have to resume my NAO game in here
03:37:56 <alise> ais523: so, has felix abandoned me? :P
03:38:02 <ais523> alise: no, he's just hiding somewhere
03:38:04 <alise> now i have two pets, great
03:38:16 <ais523> most people abandon their pets around Sokoban
03:38:50 <ais523> (I don't, btw; but I have more patience than many others)
03:39:01 <Sgeo_> My pets tend to die
03:39:08 <alise> The boulder falls into the pit. The pony neighs!--More--
03:39:11 <alise> You kill the poor pony! You hear the rumble of distant thunder...--More--
03:39:14 <ais523> if I'm going to abandon a pet, I do it early
03:39:17 <alise> Well, that solved that problem.
03:39:30 <alise> ais523: am I Evil now?
03:39:31 <ais523> oh well, at least the penalty for that wears off with time
03:39:38 <ais523> alise: alignment and luck penalty
03:39:46 <Sgeo_> alise, alignment doesn't change... well, not that sort of alignment
03:39:48 <ais523> quite a large one, but it wears off
03:39:51 <Sgeo_> You'll remain Lawful
03:40:05 <ais523> Sgeo_: unless she tries to convert an altar
03:40:10 <Sgeo_> erm, right. And he
03:40:21 <alise> and the IRC nick pronoun
03:40:23 <ais523> alise the valkyrie is female, valks always are
03:40:31 <ais523> and <alise> is a female nick
03:40:33 <alise> ais523: i like how it's better to be awful to a creature to start with rather than nice then awful
03:40:35 * Sgeo_ might not be thinking properly
03:40:40 <alise> that's a slightly strange kind of morality
03:40:44 <alise> for a game like this
03:40:48 <ais523> well, you can set the game to no pets if you like
03:41:02 <alise> ais523: this gets much harder, doesn't it?
03:41:12 <ais523> the first level's easy
03:41:18 <ais523> one of the level 2 variants is the hardest puzzle there, strangely
03:41:19 <Sgeo_> In Sokoban, there are only two possible maps per level
03:41:26 <ais523> (well, level 3, it's counted backwards for some reason)
03:41:39 <ais523> don't displace felix into the pit, btw
03:41:43 <ais523> that's only possible while you're inside
03:41:55 <ais523> by the way, did you name those scrolls you picked up?
03:42:00 <ais523> they're scrolls of earth, always
03:42:06 <alise> i've forgotten how to name
03:42:07 <ais523> so you may as well name them for reference
03:42:13 <ais523> then n to name a type of item
03:42:21 <alise> ZELGO MER, that is?
03:42:29 <Sgeo_> alise, that's what I remember
03:42:47 <ais523> besides, you don't seem to have two of anything else
03:42:54 <ais523> so that one must be earth
03:43:12 <alise> why don't winter fox cubs leave corpses?
03:43:17 <alise> and how am I still nourished?
03:43:28 <Sgeo_> Are you wearing any rings?
03:43:41 <ais523> alise: small creatures are unlikely to leave corpses
03:43:43 <Sgeo_> Or, maybe not enough time has passed
03:43:46 <ais523> and I don't think you've spent 900 turns
03:44:41 <Sgeo_> I never heard of a quasit before now
03:44:44 <Sgeo_> I would have eaten
03:44:58 <ais523> Sgeo_: if you don't know, ask pinobot
03:45:13 <ais523> or #nethack, or maybe Rodney if he has an entry on the monster's corpse
03:45:32 <Sgeo_> How do I ask pinobot?
03:45:32 <alise> Sgeo_: #!info name=monster
03:45:43 <ais523> alise: ugh, that's the hard variant
03:45:47 <ais523> it took me ages to figure out this one
03:45:58 <alise> ais523: yeah, uh, a solution would be nice
03:46:05 <Sgeo_> There are spoilers
03:46:15 <ais523> the horizontal corridor second-from-bottom, that's the first boulder you push
03:46:31 <Sgeo_> Pinobot helpfully only informed me that it confers poison resistance
03:46:43 <ais523> Sgeo_: wasn't "pois" on the list?
03:47:04 <Sgeo_> i | quasit | Spd: 15 | Small | Genocidable | Lvl: 3 | AC: 2 | MR: 20 | Difficulty: 7 | Align: -7 | Corpse wgt: 200 | Nutr: 200 | Conveys: poison resistance | Atk: claw drain dex 1d2, claw drain dex 1d2, bite physical 1d4 | Flags: poison resistance, regen, stalk, infravision, infravisible, imp, drain resistance
03:47:20 <ais523> hmm, did I remember wrong?
03:47:35 <Sgeo_> Or the bot's useless
03:47:48 <alise> Sgeo_: no, it's autogenerated
03:47:49 <Sgeo_> What's a poisonous corpse?
03:47:50 <ais523> Rodney confirms, quasits really aren't poisonous
03:47:53 <ais523> sorry, alise, misremembered
03:48:09 <alise> ugh, i don't feel like deciphering the move format use din http://nethack.wikia.com/wiki/Sokoban_Level_2a
03:48:37 <ais523> I'm not 100% confident I remember the solution to this one; more like 90%
03:49:00 <Sgeo_> Someone could just decypher into channel
03:49:15 <alise> http://nethack.wikia.com/wiki/Sokoban_Level_2a :P
03:49:30 <alise> there is a reason i wanted to skip sokoban
03:50:01 <alise> Sgeo_: but it uses its own move syntax
03:50:11 <alise> which i will have to decipher in my semi-tired state
03:50:26 <Sgeo_> I can just spam the channel, of course
03:50:48 <Sgeo_> You already moved stuff around
03:51:01 <alise> yeah, i'm following it
03:51:31 <alise> what's the space for
03:53:01 <alise> ais523: why god why?
03:53:21 <ais523> take that C_ration, btw
03:53:22 <alise> anything lootable here?
03:53:27 <ais523> not as good as food ration, but good food
03:54:43 <ais523> sorry, I'm busy watching the final stages of a DCSS tournament
03:54:57 <ais523> dungeon crawl stone soup
03:55:01 <ais523> one of NetHack's competitors
03:55:13 <Sgeo_> NetHack has competition?
03:55:17 <alise> ais523: i killed a housecat
03:55:29 <alise> ais523: it left no corpse
03:55:38 <alise> ais523: it was felix, wasn't it?
03:56:03 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: New quit message. Entering 2006 in style.).
03:56:51 <alise> a pancake sounds nice for a weak character, don't you think?
03:56:54 <Sgeo_> Any messages when you killed it?
03:58:14 <alise> ais523: good to eat?
03:58:27 <alise> ais523: no it's not
03:58:28 <ais523> not massively nutritious, but very delicious
03:58:37 <alise> ais523: i meant the corpse, you !!
03:58:48 <alise> Blecch! Rotten food! The world spins and goes dark.--More--
03:58:54 <alise> A mysterious force prevents the black unicorn from teleporting!--More--
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03:58:57 <ais523> the blecch is a random side effect that can happen to anything
03:59:00 <alise> You are conscious again.
03:59:10 <ais523> now, unicorns = dangerous
03:59:19 <ais523> but unicorns = unihorn source
03:59:45 <ais523> look what it did to your HP
03:59:51 <alise> can i eat its corpse? :D
04:00:11 <ais523> and finish the unicorn, if you weren't satiated when you started it's safe to finish
04:00:18 <ais523> (they give poison res, often)
04:00:28 <ais523> (although not that time it seems)
04:00:34 <ais523> don't eat anything further
04:00:39 <ais523> until you're unsatiated again
04:01:00 <alise> ais523: this is ridiculous for a second level of a segment
04:01:01 <Sgeo_> THat's one of the easier bits to remember, guess you haven't heard it yet
04:01:16 <alise> ais523: i'm having trouble just following the spoiler
04:01:19 <ais523> alise: it's the hardest of the eight levels, IMO
04:02:36 <Sgeo_> DCSS has automatic exploration?
04:02:39 <Sgeo_> How does that work?
04:03:15 <ais523> Sgeo_: you press o, and it explores until a monster turns up
04:03:23 <ais523> or something happens that actually requires a player decisoin
04:03:24 <alise> ais523: "lr" --spoiler
04:03:34 <ais523> DCSS has really large maps, and mostly boring ones
04:03:37 <ais523> so an autoexplore makes sense
04:04:16 <alise> ais523: am I doing well in general, btw?
04:04:27 <alise> i realise i've had an inordinate amount of help but i've never got remotely near here before :P
04:04:33 <ais523> standard valk, which is pretty impressive given it's a newbie playing
04:04:58 <ais523> although experienced players would have been more efficient, and thus had less of a food problem
04:05:17 <ais523> anyway, feel free to eat poisonous stuff from now on, as your unihorn will just unpoison you again
04:05:23 <alise> ais523: i'm mostly going slowly to make sure i don't miss stuff and to grind-train but i guess that doesn't matter so much
04:05:29 <alise> (I was worried about ending up in a difficult section unprepared)
04:05:37 <ais523> valks rule the earlygame
04:06:09 <Sgeo_> But almost always, I'm a wizard
04:06:11 <alise> ais523: is that snake going to be an issue?
04:06:17 <ais523> what sort of snake is it?
04:06:20 <Sgeo_> Maybe I'd be better off with a valk again?
04:06:31 <ais523> not until you end up in combat with it
04:06:44 <ais523> and although pythons are rather powerful, you should be able to beat it, especially if you spam Elbereth pre-emptively
04:07:15 <ais523> kill it at range if you can
04:07:22 <ais523> but you probably can't
04:07:33 <alise> Worth a shot, right?
04:07:38 <ais523> daggers are better for throwing
04:07:43 <ais523> especially as you actually have skill with them
04:07:44 <pikhq> alise: Knives? In Britain?
04:07:45 <alise> I have that too, but orcish, but blessed.
04:07:50 <pikhq> alise: But you might HURT SOMEONE!
04:07:51 <ais523> or you could try the poisoned arrows
04:08:02 <ais523> the best you're likely to do is soften it up, though
04:08:24 <ais523> werewolves are immune to Elbereth, btw
04:08:40 <ais523> there's a trice behind you
04:08:46 <ais523> ok, it didn't affect you that turn
04:08:54 <ais523> werewolves are affected in animal form
04:08:57 <ais523> werewolves are affected in animal form
04:09:02 <ais523> except the turn after they transformed
04:09:04 <alise> what of the cockatrice? let it be?
04:09:07 <ais523> stack several Elbereths
04:09:17 <ais523> it can't attack you while you're on an Elbereth square
04:09:24 <Sgeo_> Don't go blind and stumble on the square with its corpse
04:09:30 <Sgeo_> Have a lizard ready
04:09:39 <coppro> if you have gloves on, it's fine
04:09:43 <ais523> live trices aren't really that dangerous
04:09:51 <ais523> and unfortunately, alise isn't wearing gloves
04:10:33 <Sgeo_> I assume adventurers are assumed to have shoes?
04:10:44 <ais523> Sgeo_: no, but they're assumed to not step on corpses if they can help it
04:10:53 <alise> ais523: cockatrice is back
04:10:55 <ais523> alise: just kill the trice
04:11:03 <ais523> so long as you're weilding a weapon, it's safe to attack
04:11:07 <alise> ais523: it touched me! How inappropriate.
04:11:11 <ais523> so you don't have to worry about that
04:11:38 <Sgeo_> Well, when you're blind and moving without feeling the ground...
04:12:12 <ais523> coyotes should be a pushover at this point
04:12:30 <Sgeo_> Where's your turn counter?
04:12:35 <Sgeo_> Why is it disabled by default?
04:12:36 <alise> Sgeo_: i don't have one
04:12:45 <alise> how do I turn it on?
04:13:00 <ais523> rather slower than most experienced players
04:13:12 <alise> "Now it depends on whether you want to be able to have all the boulders freely moving after you finish the level. In this solution all boulders can be moved freely. Create a pathway on the right, enter the middle room and remove boulder B and restore pathway in the left:"
04:13:46 <ais523> it can't infect you /again/
04:13:53 <alise> Whoa, a lot of leather armor.
04:14:03 <ais523> (leather armor's pretty worthless)
04:14:05 <Sgeo_> Does unihorn fix lycanthropy?
04:14:10 <alise> ais523: Last time I got lycantrophic I just prayed.
04:14:11 <ais523> it fixes lots of things, but not that
04:14:16 <alise> It's been long enough since then to pray again.
04:14:18 <ais523> alise: could work this time, although repeated prayer is risky
04:14:26 <Sgeo_> Don't pray with - luck
04:14:32 <alise> ais523: I last prayed /ages/ ago, in that big hunger
04:14:33 <ais523> when did alise kill Felix?
04:14:42 <alise> ais523: i'm not sure i did
04:14:49 <Sgeo_> You killed your pony
04:14:51 <alise> although i don't know what became of felix
04:14:56 <alise> probably got killed
04:15:00 <alise> Sgeo_: true, that was a while ago though
04:15:03 <ais523> I can't remember if that's a 600- or 900-turn timeout
04:15:04 <alise> last screen, and this one has been hectic
04:15:14 <alise> ais523: ok, any suggestions then?
04:15:17 <ais523> actually, 1200 or 1800
04:15:35 <ais523> you could just live with the lycanthropy, although that's a pain
04:15:38 <Sgeo_> Did I just possibly save alise?
04:15:46 <alise> ais523: I moved that block to my right right
04:15:49 <ais523> alise: still loads of spares
04:15:49 <alise> ais523: I was meant to move it LEFT
04:15:54 <alise> ais523: yes, but now I can't use the solution
04:15:59 <ais523> move the one below you right, then up
04:16:00 <alise> Sgeo_: Probably :P
04:16:14 <alise> ais523: Indeed. Whoops.
04:16:21 <alise> ais523: I've Royally Fucked This One Up.
04:16:27 <ais523> let's see, you need 5 boulders to finish
04:16:31 <alise> With a capital royally fucked this one up.
04:16:34 <ais523> the one near the bottom is completely free, and obvious
04:17:02 <ais523> and you can free up 7 others
04:17:18 <ais523> well, you've escaped your cursed ring mail
04:17:24 <ais523> it won't fit on a wolf body
04:18:08 <ais523> hmm, I might risk prayer now, although the downsides if it doesn't work are quite large
04:18:18 <ais523> (they'll effectively prevent you from praying again for ages)
04:19:14 <alise> ais523: maybe I'll just s for a while?
04:19:29 <alise> how long; 50 turns?
04:19:31 <ais523> although it'll hunger you and get monsters to turn up
04:19:37 <alise> ok, what about #monsters?
04:19:58 <alise> ais523: I think it's praying time
04:20:04 <ais523> well, it'll turn you back if you like
04:20:11 <ais523> running out of HP in monster form = turn into player form
04:20:18 <ais523> although you'll then not have your equipment on you
04:20:47 <alise> ais523: correction, I still have my chain mail
04:21:10 <ais523> it just hit you for half your remaining HP
04:21:18 <Mathnerd314> so, anyone have a good solution to the expression problem?
04:21:20 <alise> in the midst of combat
04:21:28 <alise> if i'd just been more patient
04:21:32 <alise> i was so desperate to defend myself
04:21:35 <Sgeo_> Requiest in Peace, Elliott
04:21:57 <alise> ais523: AceHack suggestion: "Undo The Last Three Fucking Retarded Moves I Just Did"
04:22:24 <ais523> low HP is a lot more visible in AceHack than regular NetHack
04:22:31 <Sgeo_> I saw when your HP was down to 17 or 7 (forget which)
04:22:54 <Sgeo_> I tried to say something. Maybe I shoupd have just said HP
04:23:01 <alise> ais523: has nethack been known to cause depression?
04:23:27 <alise> ais523: see, that'd have been better if it was more gradual rather than doing this well on my first game :D
04:23:56 <alise> one where you don't get past the first screen hardly counts
04:23:57 <Sgeo_> Might it be better to play on NAO now?
04:24:04 <ais523> Sgeo_: NAO's a bitch from the UK
04:24:08 <ais523> NEU tends to work better
04:24:12 <ais523> at least it's in the right continent
04:24:14 <alise> and ais523 doesn't often swear :P
04:24:20 <ais523> that isn't a swearword
04:24:22 <alise> this is the fastest version
04:24:27 <alise> ais523: well, bitch as a derogatory term for something is
04:24:35 <alise> Sgeo_: I care very little.
04:24:41 <alise> "You are dead." you don't say
04:24:52 <Sgeo_> Your death announced in #nethack
04:25:02 <alise> it's just got announced here
04:25:56 <ais523> no, while not paying attention to HP
04:26:13 <ais523> oh, must be while putting on armor
04:26:15 <alise> _________)/\\_//(\/(/\)/\//\/|_)_______
04:26:19 <alise> (i was busy equipping armour)
04:26:32 <ais523> alise: if it's any consolation, the armour-equip code is hugely inconsistent in the way it handles time
04:26:39 <alise> ais523: it wouldn't have saved me
04:26:48 <alise> ais523: I should have prayed as soon as I became low on HP
04:26:57 <ais523> or Elberethed as soon as you rehumanised
04:27:07 <Sgeo_> What happens with elbereth as monster?
04:27:09 <alise> ais523: I'd start again... but it's half four.
04:27:13 <alise> Sgeo_: you run away from yourself
04:27:19 <alise> Sgeo_: Tomorrow, then, I will.
04:27:32 <ais523> Sgeo_: I don't think jackals are physically capable of engraving
04:27:38 <ais523> apart from that, it works just fine
04:27:56 <alise> Well this is irritating.
04:28:18 <alise> ais523: if I copy back my slightly older save file, nethack will creep into my window while i sleep and slit my throat, won't it?
04:28:24 <alise> (I copied it in case my script broke it)
04:28:38 <ais523> alise: all of #nethack and rgrn will bitch at you
04:28:42 <Sgeo_> alise, what script?
04:28:49 <ais523> and it's not considered to be a very good learning experience
04:28:52 <alise> Sgeo_: the termcast one
04:29:03 <ais523> but it won't be so bad that people kill you in RL. Probably.
04:30:10 <alise> ais523: well, at least i've proved to myself that i have the attention span for nethack
04:30:21 <ais523> except when fighting tigers
04:30:31 <alise> it's quite strange, how i enjoy it
04:30:35 <alise> it's like a mild, background enjoyment
04:30:48 <alise> Sgeo_: Yes, I died to a tiger! Without armour!
04:31:07 <Sgeo_> I meant, that's how you enjoy it
04:31:29 <ais523> dying can be fun too, but the actual play is generally better
04:31:30 <alise> ais523: I think I did fairly well there.
04:31:38 <alise> For my first real game.
04:31:49 <ais523> alise: http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showthread.php?t=9571 if you're interested
04:32:00 <ais523> it's someone else's Let's Play of NetHack, and one of the better ones on that site
04:33:37 <alise> ais523: i think a "GUI" interface using the ascii tiles but that has a little tooltip with the output of ; appear if you hover over a tile would be really useful
04:33:58 <ais523> NETHAX did that, while it still existed
04:34:04 <ais523> although it was pretty awful in other ways
04:34:19 <alise> ajax nethack? how strange
04:34:19 <ais523> ; can certainly be improved, say by showing descriptions without having to press .
04:34:25 <ais523> alise: yes, AJAX NetHack
04:34:30 <alise> ais523: yes, but simply moving the cursor around is irritating
04:34:35 <alise> hovering would be so much nicer, the mouse is designed for that
04:34:53 <ais523> if I ever make tiles AceHack, I'll think about it
04:35:05 <alise> ais523: on that let's play:
04:35:07 <alise> "In NetHack? None. I've never even made it to Sokoban."
04:35:13 <alise> HAH AT SOME POINT IN THE PAST HE WAS INFERIOR TO ME.
04:35:17 <alise> ais523: doesn't need tiles, just use the ascii
04:35:23 <alise> but in an x11 window
04:35:28 <ais523> by "tiles", I mean "non-tty build"
04:35:31 <alise> IMPLEMENT EVERY FEATURE NOW :P
04:35:39 <ais523> commonly, tiles that look exactly like ASCII characters are used
04:35:56 <alise> that doesn't let you configure font, though >:D
04:36:40 <alise> ais523: urgh, that let's play uses tiles
04:36:51 <ais523> it isn't an awful tileset, though
04:36:58 <ais523> the tiles are based on letters
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04:37:38 <alise> what do cockatrice corpses do again?
04:38:11 <ais523> turn things to stone, on contact
04:38:28 <ais523> this is applied pretty liberally throughout NetHack
04:38:36 <ais523> they can turn things to stone in over thirty different ways
04:38:40 <ais523> there's a list of them somewhere
04:38:49 <alise> there's more than thirty ways to stone a monster
04:39:21 <ais523> most of the actions involved aren't ones monsters actually do
04:39:26 <ais523> either because it isn't in their AI, or because they know better
04:40:01 <alise> there's more than thirty ways to stone a player
04:40:32 <coppro> and none of them involve cannabis
04:40:58 <alise> i was going to make that reference but deemed it too cheesy
04:45:46 <alise> ais523: RIP Felix, btw
04:45:59 <alise> I'm not sure whether me or a monster killed him, but there you go.
04:46:06 <ais523> how did you determine that?
04:46:06 <alise> Also RIP anonymous pony.
04:46:26 <alise> ais523: well, felix disappeared for a while, i fought an easy housecat, a bunch of difficult monsters attacked me after that, and I never saw Felix again
04:46:40 <alise> therefore either he was the housecat, or one of the monsters got him
04:46:46 <ais523> killing /both/ your pets is actually kind-of impressive
04:46:54 <alise> i must have had terrible karma
04:47:09 <alise> i killed that pony by rolling it into a pit with a boulder, how awesome is that????
04:47:27 <ais523> NetHack deaths are often awesome
04:48:40 <alise> i wish i'd died by the tiger rolling me into a pit with a boulder
04:49:09 <ais523> the only monsters that use boulders are giants
04:49:15 <ais523> and they don't roll them, they throw them
04:49:23 <ais523> giants can be an interesting challenge
04:50:36 <coppro> anyone have the URL to the rotating SVG google?
04:53:33 <Sgeo_> You could google it
04:59:33 <Sgeo_> <Trilby> Green cards per players: Sgeo - 4, hurristat - 3, Maximinus - 8, NPCApple - 5
04:59:43 <Sgeo_> Maximinus - nearly twice as human as a bot!
05:00:02 <coppro> looks like it was taken down
05:00:14 <Sgeo_> alise, shouldn't you be sleeping?
05:00:36 <Sgeo_> #applestoapples in Foonetic
05:00:41 <coppro> Sgeo_: A2A with a bot...
05:00:51 <coppro> that's such a bad idea
05:00:57 <coppro> also, is that run by Dritz?
05:01:03 <alise> apples to SNAPPLES
05:01:09 <Sgeo_> Not the bot. The ...game... bot
05:01:18 <coppro> Sgeo_: NPCApple is not a bot?
05:01:34 <alise> the game-running bot, Trilby, is Dritz's
05:01:36 <alise> note: I know nothing of this
05:01:39 <alise> I'm just good at parsing
05:01:56 <coppro> my question is, how does it make sense to play A2A against a bot
05:01:57 <alise> note: you get this
05:02:11 <Sgeo_> coppro, there were few players and we were desperate
05:02:18 <Sgeo_> Also, it made surprisingly good plays
05:02:19 <alise> desperate for comfort
05:02:25 <Sgeo_> At least, as judged by our judges
05:02:27 <coppro> Sgeo_: ping me next time, I might come over
05:02:35 <coppro> what if it's the judge? does it pick randomly?
05:02:50 <Sgeo_> It picks the same way as it picks cards from its hand, apparently
05:03:52 <coppro> ah, there's some heuristic?
05:04:13 <Sgeo_> I have no clue what it is, though
05:04:21 <Sgeo_> I've never even heard of applestoapples before today, actually
05:04:47 <Sgeo_> No, not true, even ignoring the technicality of my timezone
05:04:55 <Sgeo_> I was in that channel once before, according to logs
05:05:14 <Sgeo_> I just remember absolutely nothing
05:05:55 <coppro> how'd you find out about it?
05:06:06 <Sgeo_> Someone mentioned it in another channel
05:07:28 <coppro> (I didn't know about the channel, but I've been poking around there, so when you said it was on foonetic Dritz came to mind)
05:08:14 <Sgeo_> <Knife> I mean, he managed to play "Mom's cooking" on "deadly"....
05:19:53 -!- zzo38 has joined.
05:20:14 <zzo38> The thing about magical system in Icosahedral RPG, is, it is mathematical!
05:20:29 * coppro has considered trying out Paranoia
05:20:59 <coppro> I perused the sourcebook today; it looks Highly Entertaining
05:21:46 <alise> murphy had a paranoia nomic thing going on at one point
05:21:48 <oerjan> coppro: YOU ARE NOT CLEARED FOR THAT INFORMATION, CITIZEN
05:22:00 <oerjan> PLEASE REPORT FOR TERMINATION
05:22:01 <zzo38> coppro: I thought perusing the sourcebook is considered cheating in Paranoia? But I don't know, I never played (and might not ever? possibly?)
05:22:03 <ais523> coppro: BlogNomic inspired you?
05:22:16 <ais523> zzo38: actually, letting on that you know the rules is against the rules
05:22:24 <ais523> it's perfectly fine to know them, so long as you don't admit to it
05:22:58 <zzo38> ais523: O, sorry, now I know. (Now I am cheating too.)
05:23:23 <Sgeo_> The biggest lie ever: "I have read and agree to the Terms of Use".
05:23:28 <coppro> ais523: have you played it or is this Wikipediad?
05:23:40 <ais523> coppro: I have played it, three times I think
05:23:59 <Sgeo_> You break the Computer's rules in Paranoia anyway
05:24:21 <Sgeo_> I GMed a game once
05:24:41 <Sgeo_> Someone suggested that the worst thing I did was listen to one of the other players
05:24:45 <Sgeo_> Well, one person said that
05:25:03 <zzo38> (Also, I can now usually know the title of the page I am looking for on Wikipedia directly, so I can just type C-l :w and type it in without having to search first.)
05:25:22 <Sgeo_> The place where I was hosting the log got my password recently
05:25:34 <Sgeo_> I cleared out the malware-containing stuff, but never changed the password
05:25:42 <Sgeo_> So now everything's reinfected
05:26:07 <coppro> ais523, Sgeo_: You are not answering my question, in violation of good sense and decency. Please respond or face punishment.
05:26:20 <ais523> coppro: oh, I didn't see the question
05:26:23 <ais523> it's fun to play as a one-off
05:26:28 <Sgeo_> I haven't played much
05:26:31 <ais523> although it would probably get tiresome as a continuing campaign
05:27:20 <oerjan> in fact i'm always dead serious.
05:28:32 <alise> oerjan: zombies can't walk
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05:30:44 <Sgeo_> I'm about to repost the log
05:30:54 <alise> A safe, warm place.
05:31:03 <Sgeo_> As soon as I figure out sed to a good enough degree to remove the malicious script
05:31:22 <alise> What malicious script?
05:31:33 <zzo38> What log do you mean?
05:31:51 <Sgeo_> Of the game I GMed
05:32:03 <Sgeo_> coppro, A2A is starting
05:32:04 <alise> Sgeo_: what malicious script?
05:32:08 <Sgeo_> I won't be participating though
05:32:19 <Sgeo_> alise, I use a friend's hosting for stuff... the diagonalfish one
05:32:30 <Sgeo_> Malicious stuff was added. I removed it, but never changed the password
05:32:39 <zzo38> Sgeo_: What did you use to make the log, and why does it have a malicious script?
05:32:40 <alise> Sgeo_: umm ... just edit it out with an editor?
05:33:01 <Sgeo_> alise, good idea, ty
05:33:11 <Sgeo_> Why are you still up?
05:33:15 <alise> Sgeo_: That was an incredible bout of stupidity, no matter who did that.
05:33:23 <alise> Because I have no reason to go to bed right now.
05:33:54 <Sgeo_> It's your fault you said "a safe, warm place"
05:34:13 <pikhq> alise cares not for the cycles of your daystar!
05:34:26 <alise> i need blackout blinds.
05:35:37 <Sgeo_> http://snyfarvu.farmingdale.edu/~goldsj6/paranoia.htm
05:35:48 <zzo38> In Icosahedral RPG: The mana cost of a spell consists of numbers and values (w,u,b,r,g,X), all of which are commutative (although spells themself are not commutative).
05:35:53 <alise> Sgeo_: what about it?
05:36:01 <zzo38> The level of a spell is calculated from the mana cost by setting w=u=b=r=g=1 and X=0.
05:36:13 <Sgeo_> I misremembered where public_html was and thought it went missing, is all
05:36:26 <alise> are you sure you want to reveal your SURNAME OMG
05:36:41 <alise> and the FIRST LETTER OF YOUR NAME
05:36:47 <alise> and what might be your middle name
05:36:54 <alise> (middle initial, that is)
05:37:19 <Sgeo_> And that I go to FARMINGDALE
05:37:28 <coppro> zzo38: that was totally not based on Magic
05:37:33 <zzo38> A mana can be constructed from prime manas like positive integers can be constructed from prime numbers. There are five prime manas: w,u,b,r,g.
05:37:58 <alise> Sgeo_: And SNYFARVU
05:38:13 <zzo38> For example: If a mana cost of a spell is (2u+3) then the level is 5, and if a mana cost is (Xrrb+6r) then the level is 6.
05:38:15 <Sgeo_> I managed to slow it down to a crawl once and get other people in trouble
05:38:44 <zzo38> A mana you have can be general-use or assigned to a class.
05:39:09 <coppro> oerjan: do you play Magic?
05:39:20 <zzo38> It is possible to calculate a spell added, subtracted, multiplied, divided, raised to a power of, another spell.
05:39:45 <alise> oerjan, zzo38, easy mistake to make
05:40:02 <coppro> the keys are like right next to each other
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05:40:18 <zzo38> Yes, I can play Magic: the Gathering. However this system is different (although somewhat based on it).
05:40:35 <alise> coppro: i too have a zzo38 key on my keyboard
05:40:41 <alise> (it's next to the any key)
05:41:23 <coppro> zzo38: yeah, I noticed. my brain hurts already (btw wubrg was the obvious giveaway)
05:44:00 <zzo38> alise: How can you have a zzo38 key on your keyboard (or why)? That doesn't even make sense?
05:44:07 <Sgeo_> coppro pronounces ZPM as Zed PM
05:44:09 <alise> zzo38: Why doesn't it?
05:44:20 <alise> zzo38: I press it and it inserts "zzo38".
05:44:24 <alise> zzo38: Right next to the Any key.
05:44:26 <coppro> Sgeo_: duh. Meredith is totally right on that one.
05:44:29 <zzo38> alise: It just doesn't make sense......
05:45:00 <zzo38> Some on-screen keyboards have a key to insert ".com" but that doesn't make sense either, at least it makes slightly more sense than one that inserts "zzo38"
05:45:09 <zzo38> Unless it is a macro key. If it is a macro key, it can make sense.
05:45:17 <alise> Nope, it's a bona-fide zzo38 key.
05:45:19 <alise> Sgeo_: No it's not :<
05:45:31 <alise> maybe it is SLIGHTLY a joke
05:45:33 <zzo38> alise: What kind of keyboard do you have, anyways? Does it have a F13 key?
05:45:51 <zzo38> And F14 and F15 and F16 key?
05:46:05 <alise> zzo38: Yes, in fact it has up to F34.
05:46:10 <alise> It also has three numlocks.
05:46:19 <alise> It's a BIT of a STRANGE keyboard.
05:47:02 <zzo38> alise: Yes, I suppose it is a bit strange........
05:47:26 <alise> It also has a "Detonate Nuclear Missiles" button.
05:47:29 <alise> Right next to the Q button.
05:47:46 <zzo38> alise: To the left or to the right? Or in a different direction?
05:48:06 <alise> Q, Detonate Nuclear Missiles, W, E, K, T, Y, I, U, O, P
05:48:19 <alise> it's the rare qwekty layout -- ibm made this in late 70s, early 80s
05:48:24 <alise> i have an adapter plugged in
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05:48:52 <zzo38> I doubt IBM ever built such a keyboard with everything like that you mention, you must have built it yourself, if in fact it actually exists at all
05:50:23 <zzo38> In Icosahedral RPG, the method for paying mana cost of a spell can be formally mathematically described as follows (note: you hardly ever need this long formal dsecription, you can simplify it a lot): After selecting the non-negative integer in place of X, rewrite the mana cost as a sum of manas.
05:51:10 <zzo38> And then, you can multiply any of the terms by any manas. And then remove manas from the class manas that are the same as each term.
05:52:45 <zzo38> (The mana cost of a spell can be described as terms consisting of non-negative integers multiplied by manas, where X is a variable.)
05:54:03 <zzo38> ??Is this sensible to you??
05:54:39 <ais523> it seems to use the word "mana" in several unrelated contexts
05:54:41 <ais523> which makes it hard to follow
05:54:42 <coppro> as sensible as anything else I here in here
05:54:44 <Sgeo_> What's the point of the formal definition?
05:56:00 <coppro> signs that I might want to leave a channel: there has been 0 activity in 60 hours (not even joins/parts)
05:56:31 <zzo38> ais523: The word "mana" is not used in several unrelated contexts in this game. It is used as a mathematical quantity (which is commutative), or as a mana that you have in a class or general-use, which is also a instance of one of these mathematical quantities.
05:56:32 <Sgeo_> Are there other people physically in there?
05:56:44 <coppro> how can a quantity be commutative?
05:57:07 <zzo38> coppro: That means that (wu)=(uw) for example (where that means (w) multiplied by (u))
05:57:20 <coppro> so multiplication of mana is commutative, you mean
05:57:36 <zzo38> Multiplication of spells is *not* commutative, however.
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05:58:31 <zzo38> (A mana being commutative is actually (as far as I can tell) implied by the definition of a "mana" given above)
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05:59:11 <coppro> zzo38: saying that a qantity is commutative is not only meaningless but confusing
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05:59:31 <zzo38> coppro: How is it confusing?
05:59:31 <coppro> only operations can have commutativity
05:59:46 <coppro> and there can be multiple operations on a quantity, some of which are commutative and some of which aren't
05:59:52 <coppro> for instance, would you say numbers are commutative?
06:01:30 <zzo38> coppro: Normal numbers (including complex numbers) are commutative, but hypercomplex numbers are not commutative.
06:01:54 <zzo38> (Meta-complex numbers are commutative, however.)
06:01:59 <coppro> zzo38: what about 2^3 not being equal to 3^2
06:02:01 <ais523> zzo38: no, multiplication is commutative over complex numbers, but not over quaternions
06:02:11 <ais523> this is a property of multiplication, not of the numbers themselves
06:02:20 <ais523> just like addition is commutative over both, and exponentiation is commutative over neither
06:03:23 <zzo38> To me, that is how I abbreviate it, it should be assumed multiplication is meant (and that if you specify it just saying "these numbers are commutative", that addition is also commutative)
06:03:38 <zzo38> coppro: That is because exponent is not commutative
06:03:54 <Sgeo_> Well, don't abbreviate it
06:03:58 <coppro> you cannot say that "numbers" are commutative because they aren't
06:04:20 <ais523> well, unless your numbers are functions themselves
06:04:33 <coppro> don't misuse terminology if you're attempting to make a formal definition especially
06:04:33 <Sgeo_> Someone should make an esolang that does that
06:04:43 <ais523> I can easily imagine (2 3 4) being valid in a lisp-like esolang, or 3 `2` 4 in a Haskell-like esolang
06:05:02 <ais523> and it's common to use functions to represent numbers in Unlambda and Underlambda
06:05:57 <ais523> although they tend to be unary functions rather than binary, you can always uncurry
06:06:36 * Sgeo_ wonders how this can apply to the AW computer
06:11:38 * Sgeo_ takes his main ingredient in some OTC sleeping pills + hormone
06:15:01 <pikhq> coppro: Would you prefer a suppository?
06:15:33 <coppro> you have made my life better
06:16:21 <coppro> btw you should join blognomic
06:16:25 <coppro> next dynasty will be fun
06:18:32 <Sgeo_> Why would that work/
06:18:58 <oerjan> !haskell main = print $ 3 `2` 4
06:20:04 <oerjan> i was just wondering if it was a parse error (in which case you cannot do that in haskell) or a type error (in which case you could fix it with a Num instance for functions)
06:20:12 <oerjan> alas it's a parse error
06:21:10 <ais523> sadly, EgoBot seems not to know
06:21:13 <oerjan> !haskell :t 2 (3 :: Int) (4 :: Int)
06:21:14 <EgoBot> 2 (3 :: Int) (4 :: Int) :: (Num (Int -> Int -> t)) => t
06:21:32 <ais523> according to my ghci, 2 3 4 :: (Num (t1 -> t2 -> t), Num t1, Num t2) => t
06:21:37 <oerjan> the type was too ambiguous i guess
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06:23:10 <oerjan> i guess EgoBot is set with too strict options to give an answer or something
06:23:40 <oerjan> and if :t gives an error/warning, we'll never know
06:23:46 <coppro> pikhq: have you never played BN?
06:24:40 <ais523> ghci didn't give an error or warning when I tried
06:25:30 <oerjan> no but EgoBot may be using -wall or something?
06:25:54 <oerjan> !sh ls interps/haskell
06:25:54 <EgoBot> /bin/ls: cannot access interps/haskell: No such file or directory
06:26:26 <oerjan> !sh ls interps/ | fmt -w100
06:26:26 <EgoBot> 1l 2l Makefile adjust axo befunge bf_txtgen bfjoust boof c-intercal cat cfunge clc-intercal
06:26:51 <oerjan> !sh ls interps/ | fmt -w500
06:26:53 <EgoBot> 1l 2l Makefile adjust axo befunge bf_txtgen bfjoust boof c-intercal cat cfunge clc-intercal dimensifuck egobch egobf fukyorbrane gcccomp gforth_quit ghc glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl
06:27:22 <oerjan> !sh ls interps/ghc | fmt -w500
06:27:44 <oerjan> !sh fmt -w500 interps/ghc/runghc
06:27:44 <EgoBot> #!/bin/bash if ! ghc -O2 -e "`cat $1`" 2> /dev/null then
06:27:52 <pikhq> coppro: No, but I have been Ambassador to it.
06:28:48 <oerjan> !sh cat interps/ghc/runghc | fmt -w500
06:28:48 <EgoBot> #!/bin/bash if ! ghc -O2 -e "`cat $1`" 2> /dev/null then
06:28:52 <Sgeo_> I've touched BN once
06:30:23 <oerjan> hm actually that means it uses no options besides -O2
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07:11:31 <Sgeo_> Enforcing hibernation npw
07:14:37 <coppro> I'm addicted to watching the hours tick down to my BN vicotyr
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07:23:37 <ais523> coppro: you have BN victory on a /timer/?
07:24:06 * ais523 wonders, what exploit is this?
07:32:38 <pikhq> ais523: He must cackle as it goes down.
07:39:14 <coppro> ais523: it should actually be pretty easily visible
07:39:24 <coppro> or at least logically deducible
07:40:50 <ais523> I don't see how you trigger either VC
07:41:40 <ais523> or 2.4.1, fwiw, although I can see how you might have proposals designed to trigger that
07:41:46 <ais523> which would explain the timer
07:42:48 <ais523> you don't have -6 treason, and a method of pumping someone else up to UV would be considered a scam
07:42:58 <ais523> so I find it hard to square the ruleset with your actoins
07:43:25 <ais523> "mantra of the unwashed" is clearly an attempt to trigger 2.4.1, btw
07:54:49 <ais523> well, unless you're planning to bypass the ruleset entirely, you'll need to trigger it somehow
07:55:20 * oerjan suddenly envisions the concept of a nomic crank
07:55:57 <oerjan> someone who insists that their scam _does_ work despite all evidence to the contrary
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08:06:21 <zzo38> coppro: Play chess and be not bored, then?
08:06:33 <zzo38> Or else, just rest?
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12:59:15 <CakeProphet> apparently monkey brains can neuroplastically adapt to brain machine interfaces
13:05:07 <fizzie> Man, damn my stupid PEOPLE BRAIN that can't.
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17:02:23 <alise> Sgeo: coppro: FWIW, I'll probably be starting another Nethack game in a little while.
17:04:52 <Sgeo> On termcast or elsewhere?
17:05:52 <alise> Sgeo: Well, got any suggestions for elsewhere?
17:06:11 <Sgeo> Someone suggested something called NEU?
17:06:11 <alise> I'm not going to use NAO; it's ridiculously slow on this part of the globe.
17:06:40 <alise> Sgeo: I'm looking for it on http://nethack.wikia.com/wiki/Public_server...
17:06:53 <alise> Sgeo: But I don't really see a huge problem with termcast. I much prefer the zero-latency gameplay.
17:07:15 <Sgeo> Hmm, that's a point
17:07:18 <alise> Can you tell me what's wrong with termcast, apart from the ridiculous possibility that I modified the code to cheat, which is patently untrue as I do terribly? :P
17:07:44 <alise> with termcast, every keypress happens instantly, and it gets sent off to the server in the background
17:07:53 <alise> with servers you have to wait for the roundtrip
17:08:33 <alise> Can't find anything that looks like an NEU on that public server list.
17:10:29 <alise> Sgeo: Is there a way to get Nethack to colour the status line somehow?
17:10:37 <alise> Say, give a red background to things like low HP or blindness, etc.
17:11:04 <alise> (Inspired by this screenshot of UnNetHack: http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090621122957/nethack/images/b/b4/UnNetHack.png)
17:11:25 <Sgeo> Um, there's a patch for that, that I think NAO uses
17:11:55 <alise> There's a patch for that. NetHack. From the Dev Team. www.nethack.org
17:12:26 <alise> Oh, come on, laugh.
17:12:42 * Sgeo got it, but didn't feel a need to laugh in-channel
17:13:20 <Sgeo> http://nethack.wikia.com/wiki/Statuscolors
17:14:07 <Sgeo> http://nethack.wikia.com/wiki/HPmon is what NAO uses
17:14:59 <alise> Sgeo: Actually, maybe not having it coloured will encourage me to be more careful.
17:15:02 <Sgeo> I may watch some SGU
17:15:19 <Sgeo> Or, alternatively, explorer.exe can crash
17:15:28 <alise> Ha ha, Windows user
17:17:00 <alise> Sgeo: Well, I'm going to start the game in a second.
17:17:24 <Sgeo> Awesome, VLC's refusing to not be full-screened again
17:17:37 <alise> See! More reason to watch me play Nethack instead. :P
17:19:24 <Sgeo> I should mention termcast to my UNIX professor
17:20:13 <alise> (It's trademarked as UNIX but that's because of retardedness; the erroneous "UNIX" spelling comes from the fact that "Unix" was set in small caps in the original manuals.)
17:21:02 <Sgeo> Do you have a source for this? (I want to be sure that you're not pranking me)
17:21:23 <alise> That would be the World's Worst Prank.
17:21:37 <alise> "Unix (officially trademarked as UNIX, sometimes also written as Unix with small caps)" --Wikipedia
17:21:42 <alise> Or do you want me to dig out an old Unix paper too?!
17:21:50 <Sgeo> No, that's sufficient
17:21:59 <Sgeo> *checks Wikipedia article's history*
17:22:39 <alise> Sgeo: OK, so I'm being a little pedantic; old Unix guys have called it UNIX in media such as email before.
17:22:44 <alise> But that's probably just to emulate the small caps.
17:22:54 <alise> Anyway, a better justification is that Unix is definitely /valid/, and dammit, UNIX looks ugly.
17:23:24 <Sgeo> Tell me when you're on termcast
17:23:51 <alise> Sgeo: I need you to be pedantic in turn
17:24:02 <alise> Sgeo: My window is titled "Nethack" with a lowercase h, please beat me with a rusty stick
17:24:19 <alise> In my defence, "NetHack" looks SO ugly.
17:24:36 <Sgeo> I'm not beating you with anything, perv!
17:24:53 <alise> Is there /anything/ you cannot turn sexual?
17:25:23 <Sgeo> Something that's already sexual!
17:25:38 <alise> Sgeo: Okay, going on air in three... two... one...
17:25:51 <alise> Do you receive the test signal?!
17:26:03 <alise> coppro: ^ also (in case you're silly enough to want to watch)
17:26:53 <alise> Hmm, that reminds me
17:27:04 <alise> Sgeo: What's the name of that nice bot that spoils you about all the monsters?
17:27:10 <alise> that ais mentioned yesterday
17:28:01 <Sgeo> Do you know about vaults?
17:28:11 <alise> I know /of/ them; I don't know how I can get out of them.
17:28:21 <Sgeo> You can drop your gold
17:28:24 <Sgeo> And go with the guard
17:28:38 <Sgeo> If you want to keep it, say Croesus (I think)
17:28:40 <alise> Does it matter who I tell the Guard I am?
17:28:52 <alise> Now /that/ was cheating. :P
17:29:02 <Sgeo> You may be trapped
17:29:10 <alise> Sgeo: What if I give him another name?
17:29:19 <Sgeo> You'll have to drop the gold and leave
17:29:27 <Sgeo> And you can't come back through the trap
17:29:45 <alise> Sgeo: What if I kill the guard?
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17:30:01 <Sgeo> I doubt you're strong enough. I don't know
17:30:07 <alise> Sgeo: Or, better idea: what if I pick up the gold again now, and resume following him? :D
17:30:36 <Sgeo> Or it could be a terminally bad idea
17:30:37 <alise> "So be it, rogue!" Oh dear.
17:30:52 <alise> Sgeo: That was a quick death.
17:31:01 <alise> Note to self: In future, follow guards.
17:31:16 <alise> Sgeo: Okay, reconnecting.
17:31:21 <alise> Let's hope this game lasts slightly longer.
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17:32:36 <oerjan> <fizzie> Man, damn my stupid PEOPLE BRAIN that can't.
17:32:51 <oerjan> i would assume if monkey brains can, it's quite likely human brains can too
17:32:54 <alise> Sgeo: No point going to the vault, is there?
17:33:10 <alise> Sgeo: I heard vaulty noises, says Nethack.
17:33:22 <Sgeo> When you're stronger or have teleportitis
17:33:33 <Sgeo> Don't know if anyone follows you if you teleport out
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17:33:33 <alise> Bloody dead-end corridor.
17:33:43 <Sgeo> IS it a dead end?
17:33:46 <oerjan> there's just the slight problem of getting the testing past the ethical board...
17:33:51 <alise> Sgeo: I've searched ~60 times now.
17:34:02 <alise> oerjan: any context? :P
17:34:11 <alise> Sgeo: Unless you want me to search more? XD
17:34:16 <oerjan> 04:59:15 <CakeProphet> apparently monkey brains can neuroplastically adapt to brain machine interfaces
17:34:19 <oerjan> 04:59:35 <CakeProphet> I say this is cool as fuck
17:34:48 <Sgeo> I think your pet can be diagonal from you when you go down or up
17:35:03 <alise> Sgeo: Okay. I was being cautious.
17:35:23 <alise> You can steal from shops, can't you?
17:35:27 -!- Cavilador has quit.
17:35:34 <Sgeo> Yes... safest to do so with your pet
17:35:46 <alise> Sgeo: Are shopkeepers difficult to kill?
17:35:52 <Sgeo> For you, right now, yes
17:36:19 <alise> Sgeo: More to the point, do I actually need any potions at this point...?
17:36:42 <alise> Ehh, I'll skip it.
17:37:41 <alise> Sgeo: How peculiar!
17:37:42 <Sgeo> You can kick down doors, you know
17:37:44 <alise> I suppose there is a hidden door.
17:37:48 <alise> Sgeo: Wait, locked doors?
17:38:08 <alise> I've been playing without opening them at all
17:38:41 <Sgeo> Ok, look at HP.
17:38:51 <alise> That was the fox, wasn't it?
17:38:52 <Sgeo> Also, note that grid bugs can't bite on a diagonal
17:39:15 <alise> I don't really have any way to get the HP back.
17:39:30 <Sgeo> Resting helps I think
17:41:22 <Sgeo> That looks dangerous, but I forget exactly what it is
17:41:30 <alise> Well, I killed it instantly, so there we go.
17:41:32 <Sgeo> And possibly the o
17:41:41 <Sgeo> Don't eat zombie corpses
17:41:58 <Sgeo> Drop stuff on it
17:42:31 <alise> Sgeo: Why do NetHack pets all have ADHD?
17:42:43 <Sgeo> I am not a NetHack pet!
17:42:55 <alise> Sgeo: Did I ever say that?
17:43:05 <Sgeo> No, but still >.>
17:43:59 -!- nooga has joined.
17:44:01 <alise> Sgeo: What does zapping do, again?
17:44:12 <alise> I mean, grid bugs.
17:45:14 <alise> Well, that was clever.
17:45:17 <Sgeo> Why would you..
17:45:22 <alise> I thought maybe it was inactive!
17:45:35 <alise> Floating eye, hidihi.
17:45:37 <Sgeo> Don't strike the floating eye in melee
17:45:50 <Sgeo> It will paralize you
17:45:57 <Sgeo> And some pathetic weak monster will kill you
17:46:09 <Sgeo> Kill it from a distance and eat the corpse
17:46:28 <alise> Daggers any good for throwing?
17:46:30 -!- Flonk_ has joined.
17:46:36 <fizzie> oerjan: It was a stealth reference to a "man, I hate my stupid monkey blood!" Penny Arcade comic, actually.
17:46:45 <Sgeo> Also worth eating at some point
17:46:58 <alise> Sgeo: It left no corpse.
17:47:09 <alise> I was planning to eat the corpse.
17:47:27 <alise> Conveys telepathy, what's that all about?
17:47:44 <Sgeo> When you're blind and have intrinsic telepathy, you can sense monsters all around the level
17:47:52 <alise> A shitload of fountains on this level.
17:48:15 -!- Flonk has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
17:48:20 <fizzie> Sounds like kernel panic!
17:48:25 -!- Flonk_ has changed nick to Flonk.
17:49:14 <fizzie> ./kernel/exit.c: panic("Aiee, killing interrupt handler!");
17:49:37 <alise> Sgeo: Ring mail's better than what I have, right?
17:49:42 <Sgeo> I have no idea, sorry
17:49:43 <alise> ... but it's heavy and maybe cursed.
17:49:50 <alise> Sgeo: I know it's worse than chain mail.
17:51:09 <alise> Sgeo: I see no other way.
17:51:24 <Sgeo> Under the corpse?
17:52:01 <Sgeo> Under the ring mail?
17:52:29 <Sgeo> Um, doesn't look it, but you could try going down
17:52:59 <alise> Sgeo: Looks like there's only one way out of this situation!
17:53:21 <alise> Sgeo: I have no long-range weapons.
17:54:11 <Sgeo> Sinks are good for IDing rings
17:54:16 <Sgeo> There's a page on that
17:54:17 <alise> If only I had rings.
17:54:35 <Sgeo> And for breaking your legs when you're levitating
17:54:53 <Sgeo> Hey, if you're levitating against your will...
17:55:12 <alise> Sgeo: How convenient.
17:55:20 <Sgeo> Was about to say the exat same thing
17:55:37 <alise> What's that splashing?
17:55:42 <Sgeo> Um, IDing rings at a sink usually means losing the ring
17:55:45 <Sgeo> Probably the sink
17:55:51 <alise> Wait ... then why ID them?
17:56:05 <Sgeo> So you know what they are in the future
17:56:14 <alise> What if I forget? Does the game remember for me?
17:56:27 <Sgeo> I don't remember if it asks you to Call
17:56:53 <alise> Sgeo: Worth doing?
17:57:01 <Sgeo> I... don't know
17:57:07 <alise> And be more useful :P
17:57:09 <Sgeo> You need a junk object
17:57:29 <Sgeo> It's food, not sure that it counts as junk :/
17:57:52 <Sgeo> Also, there may be otehr ways to ID rings
17:58:21 <alise> All rings may be identified by dropping them into sinks. The sink will show an effect depending on the type of ring. Rings other than searching and slow digestion will be lost with 95% probability; therefore it is a good idea to do this test only if you have another ring of the same type as the one being tested, or if you know that the ring is cursed, or you don't want it for some other reason.
17:58:43 <Sgeo> "but lying carries a small alignment penalty for lawfuls"
17:58:47 <alise> Sgeo: Why did Felix yowl?
17:59:02 <Sgeo> Don't know why, but it can't be good
17:59:14 <alise> You can #chat with your cat to get an idea of how it is feeling:
17:59:14 <alise> it will yowl if it is caught in a trap, confused, fleeing, or tameness is getting low.
18:00:17 <alise> Sgeo: Does Felix hate me :(
18:00:46 <Sgeo> He's still tame
18:01:02 <alise> Any catrearing tips?
18:01:49 <alise> Sgeo: He wanted food.
18:02:06 <alise> ...can you feed pets non-pet food?
18:02:16 <Sgeo> If they're hungry, I think
18:03:02 <Sgeo> Sorry that I couldn't help
18:03:26 <alise> You can tame almost anything, right?
18:03:41 <Sgeo> There are some untamable things
18:03:45 <alise> Well if someone had PESTILENCE as a pet...
18:03:56 <Sgeo> I don't think you can tame the Wizard of Yendor
18:04:09 <Sgeo> YOu may have broken a mirror
18:04:11 * alise kicks it some more
18:04:27 <alise> Sgeo: Not potions?
18:04:34 <Sgeo> Or potions, hopefully
18:04:40 <Sgeo> I may be mistaken
18:05:00 <alise> Aww, an iguana would have made a nice pet.
18:05:04 <alise> Sgeo: Yes ... several. Why?
18:05:13 <Sgeo> Um, don't know
18:05:30 <Sgeo> They may contain stuff? Not particularly useful for you
18:06:04 <alise> encarved Beetlejuice Beetlejuice Beetlejuice
18:06:13 <alise> How do you loot statues ...
18:06:22 <Sgeo> Never thought of that
18:06:29 <Sgeo> I was thinking of just breaking it open
18:06:30 <alise> How do they contain stuff, then?
18:06:33 <Sgeo> But you're not a wizard
18:06:42 <Sgeo> It can't hurt to try, can it?
18:06:58 <alise> If there's one thing Nethack has taught me, it's this: it can ALWAYS hurt to try.
18:07:05 <Sgeo> "The contents of the statue can be retrieved by either smashing it apart, or by using a stone to flesh spell to convert it to a living being, whereupon the contents will become the monster's inventory."
18:07:55 <Sgeo> You have autopickup on?
18:08:01 <alise> Sgeo: For a few items; why?
18:08:04 <alise> I picked up the rocks on purpose.
18:08:42 <Sgeo> It occurs to me that coins are great junk objects
18:08:53 <alise> You can't drop just one coin, though, can you?
18:09:22 <alise> Sgeo: Ehm ... do dogs like candy bars?
18:09:28 <Sgeo> with D, I think
18:09:32 <Sgeo> Oh, dogs and candy bars?
18:10:03 <Sgeo> to drop a coin, I think it's D1$
18:10:24 <alise> Taming wild dogs is usually easy, because all sizes of dog are considered domestic animals. Throwing a meaty treat, a safe fresh meat-based corpse, or processed human food at a hostile or peaceful dog will tame it. Throwing any other comestible at a dog will at least render it peaceful, with the exception of cream pies and eggs (which will break on impact).
18:11:00 <alise> How do you name your pet again...?
18:11:02 <Sgeo> I think it's N for pets?
18:13:44 <Sgeo> Please don't kill your second pet
18:13:53 <alise> Sgeo: I'll try not to!
18:13:59 <alise> Yipping is apparently A-OK.
18:16:01 <alise> Sgeo: Is it, uh, wise to enter throne rooms?
18:16:34 <alise> Throne rooms contain an assortment of monsters, a throne, and a chest. There is a guaranteed throne room in Fort Ludios, in the Castle and in Vlad's tower.
18:16:34 <Sgeo> http://nethack.wikia.com/wiki/Throne_room#Throne_rooms gives me no reason to think that they're peaceful
18:17:06 <Sgeo> Unless they are, I guess
18:17:06 <alise> Sgeo: But the reward IS powerful, I get a throne.
18:17:15 <alise> Well, they aren't attacking me ;)
18:17:41 <alise> Sgeo: http://nethack.wikia.com/wiki/Throne#Sitting_on_a_throne
18:17:49 <alise> These seem like rather good outcomes. Maybe.
18:17:56 <alise> Possibility to genocide.
18:18:05 <alise> Get to make a wish. Identify items.
18:18:17 <Sgeo> Some negative outcomes
18:18:28 <fizzie> There's preparations you can take before sitting.
18:18:31 <alise> Sgeo: OTOH, fighting these guys seems like a nice way to train.
18:18:37 <alise> fizzie: /This/ early in the game?
18:18:48 <fizzie> Mostly, you can drop all your gold to the next square.
18:18:49 <alise> Sgeo: I can always flee. RAAAAMPAAAAAGE!
18:18:55 <fizzie> Because one of the outcomes is the loss of all of it.
18:19:13 <Sgeo> How are you not dead?
18:19:20 <alise> Sgeo: Because I'm SO HARDCORE.
18:19:34 <Sgeo> WTF is an aklys?
18:19:50 <alise> An aklys, known as a thonged club when unidentified, is a kind of weapon commonly used by gnomes and is hence frequent junk in the Gnomish Mines. It is lighter than the standard club at only 15 weight units compared to the club’s 30. Also unlike the standard club, the aklys is made of iron rather than wood. It is relatively worthless, having a base cost of only 4 zorkmids. The aklys does 1d6 damage (average of 3.5) to small creatures, and 1d3 damage (ave
18:19:50 <alise> rage of 2) to large creatures, identical with the standard club.
18:20:20 <Sgeo> alise, note HP
18:20:27 <alise> Yes, I'm resting for a little bit.
18:21:16 <alise> Sgeo: This is FUN!
18:21:48 <alise> Sgeo: Good thing there's so many monsters here I can just flail wildly!
18:21:52 <alise> fizzie: You gotta see this. :P
18:22:03 <fizzie> I can open it on one screen; how?
18:22:11 <alise> fizzie: telnet termcast.org
18:22:13 <fizzie> I don't promise I'll be watching very closely, though.
18:22:15 <alise> Whichever one's "alise".
18:22:36 <alise> Heeeeere we gooooooooo
18:22:52 <alise> Aww, I'm not blind any more.
18:22:56 <fizzie> Okay, you appear to have eaten a bugbear; I guess I picked the right one.
18:23:31 <fizzie> The throne room is a lot easier with stealth; you don't wake up everything in there.
18:23:46 <fizzie> Okay, a pet might still go and awaken monsters, though.
18:24:16 <Sgeo> alise starved his first pet
18:24:24 <alise> It's praying time soon.
18:24:36 <fizzie> Incidentally, is there some sort of a trick going on, or how do the line-drawing characters work on this UTF-8 term?
18:24:46 <alise> fizzie: It's the Unicode ones, I think.
18:24:50 <alise> I'm using DECgraphics.
18:25:05 <alise> fizzie: Although, wait, no.
18:25:12 <alise> fizzie: As I recall, most terminals automatically rejiggle those to work.
18:25:19 <alise> fizzie: For instance, elinks manages them fine.
18:25:27 <fizzie> IBMgraphics is a bit more fiddlier to set up.
18:25:39 <fizzie> (But you get "top of integral sign" fountains and all.)
18:25:57 <alise> How am I not satiated yet?!
18:26:22 <Sgeo> alise is going the way of Felix, but isn't aware of it yet
18:26:42 <alise> Starving, you mean?
18:26:55 <alise> I've eaten something like 10 corpses in the past few hundred turns.
18:27:09 <alise> Sgeo: Would you look at that?
18:27:19 <alise> I just vanquished an entire throne room without going very low on HP once! Yay.
18:27:30 <alise> fizzie: So, drop mah moneys, right?
18:27:45 <fizzie> Right. I don't think there's too much else to do, though I might just forget something.
18:28:04 <fizzie> Well, that was useless.
18:28:17 <alise> fizzie: Not useless; I've got a lot of fightin' 'sperience doing that.
18:28:18 <fizzie> Also having it disappear on the first #sit is unlucky.
18:28:32 <Sgeo> "If your Luck is strictly positive, you are blinded for 250 to 349 (more) turns; otherwise, your inventory is randomly cursed (as for a "malignant aura").
18:28:48 <Sgeo> Might there be something in the chest?
18:28:50 <alise> Sgeo: that's a 1/13 chance though :D
18:28:54 <alise> Sgeo: I already looted the chest
18:28:56 <fizzie> Oh, right: there's that chest next to the throne, it's a reasonably safe place to stick the money in before sitting.
18:29:13 <Sgeo> Write in the ground with the gem
18:29:19 <Sgeo> Oh, and hold onto the lizard corpse
18:29:28 <alise> Sgeo: Scooby ate it.
18:29:44 <alise> Floating eyes, my favourite kind of floating eye.
18:30:33 <Sgeo> Now would be a good time to pray
18:30:44 <alise> Hooray for religion.
18:30:48 <Sgeo> Get the flating eye corpse
18:31:22 <alise> What does that do, again?
18:31:30 <Sgeo> Walk around semi-randomly I think
18:31:36 <Sgeo> Be careful near your dog
18:31:47 <alise> Oh, I know! I'll pray!
18:32:43 <Sgeo> "Food poisoning is completely preventable (in NetHack) by avoiding eating old corpses."
18:33:08 <Slereah> But they look so fucking tasty
18:33:09 <alise> All I did was brutally attack her.
18:34:24 <alise> am I not prepared for this level, do you think? :/
18:34:39 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later).
18:34:44 <alise> Sgeo: OK; what now?
18:35:01 <Sgeo> Ask in #nethack
18:35:16 <alise> "Hello; I've got myself into a stupid situation because I'm retarded. Halp."
18:37:19 <alise> Sgeo: Oh! Elbereth!
18:37:47 <alise> Sgeo: Won't that work?
18:37:55 <alise> Or do mummys count as humanoid? :P
18:38:20 <alise> I don't think #nethack realises that the mummy is actively attacking me.
18:38:24 <coppro> A Elbereth Gilthoniel!
18:38:57 <alise> coppro: do *you* see anywhere I can move without dying next turn? http://i.imgur.com/dLUSe.png
18:39:10 <alise> Okay, Elbereth time.
18:39:37 <coppro> yes, Elbereth is good. Have a wand you can use?
18:39:44 <alise> I Elberethed, the mummy fleed,
18:39:46 <alise> came back, kille dme.
18:39:56 <coppro> in situations like that, you just keep Elberething
18:40:06 <Sgeo> alise, you moved!
18:40:08 <coppro> since you will wear the old ones out
18:40:28 <alise> Go team elf mummy. Go team new-game.
18:40:44 <alise> Nethack picked dwarven Valkyrie for me.
18:40:47 <alise> I accidentally said yes.
18:40:50 <alise> What are the chances?
18:40:58 <alise> Well, same time, same bat-channel.
18:41:00 <alise> Here we go again ...
18:41:04 <alise> coppro: (telnet termcast.org)
18:41:41 <alise> Sgeo: Chain mail on dlvl 1
18:42:29 <alise> Probably cursed, but who cares? It's chain mail! :p
18:42:46 <Sgeo> Items can be -enhanced
18:43:22 <coppro> Sgeo: chaimail has high AC to start with, so a negative enchantment is likely to be a net win
18:43:45 <alise> I had -1 cursed chain mail for the majority of my game yesterday where I got to Sokoban.
18:43:47 <alise> Don't regret it one bit.
18:44:29 <coppro> in fact, I don't think a harmful chain mail can be generated
18:45:44 <alise> This is a surprisingly active dlvl 1.
18:46:20 <alise> He got transported to the vault, didn't he ...
18:46:36 <Sgeo> There's a vault?
18:46:58 <alise> Oh, Felix is down here.
18:47:21 <Sgeo> Ooh, smoky potion
18:50:38 <alise> coppro: Sgeo: rate this idea: 200s until monster, kill, repeat
18:50:49 <coppro> I need the next 22 hours to pass unremarkably
18:51:30 <alise> coppro: why? for the ****?
18:51:35 <Sgeo> He'll pull a Felix?
18:51:38 <alise> the ***** **** ******* *
18:51:52 <alise> as * denotes a correction.
18:52:21 <alise> coppro: Q: What's better than a blindfold?
18:52:23 <alise> A: Two blindfolds!
18:52:40 <alise> "RIP Felix" is now a meme.
18:52:51 <alise> You kill poor Felix! Welcome to experience level 3.--More--
18:52:56 <alise> NetHack: Kill pet, gain experience
18:53:18 <Sgeo> How'd mypu dp that?
18:53:25 <coppro> killing a pet is a horrible idea
18:53:39 <alise> coppro: yep, it was an accident
18:53:47 <alise> Sgeo: viciously attacked a gas spore
18:53:55 <alise> without previously considering the implications of this
18:54:07 <alise> There is an open door here. You see here a kitten corpse named Felix.
18:54:12 <alise> coppro: If I eat it, can I become Chaotic?
18:54:21 <coppro> did you hear the rumble of distant thunder?
18:54:30 <Sgeo> Eating it is probably not a good idea
18:54:58 <alise> THUNDER IS LIKE THE GREATEST
18:55:00 <coppro> alise: becoming chaotic in nethack will make the game unwinnable
18:55:10 <coppro> also, congratulations, you suffered -15 alignment and -1 luck
18:55:16 <coppro> your god hates you now
18:55:27 <alise> coppro: To be fair, I killed my pony pet in the game I got to Sokoban.
18:55:34 <alise> /And/ possibly killed Felix; either that or let him die.
18:55:47 <alise> (I killed an anonymous housecat who left no corpse, but I'm not sure if it was Felix; he was a pushover.)
18:55:53 <alise> (And Felix was not a pushover that game.)
18:56:15 <coppro> eating your pet gives you a horribly annoying intrinsic that is almost impossible to remove
18:56:31 <alise> Sgeo: You know, calling me "he" in a random channel will just confuse people. :P
18:56:56 <alise> q - a kitten corpse named Felix.
18:57:20 <alise> What do you want to write in the dust here? RIP Felix (also Elbereth)
18:58:15 <alise> is it just me, or is elbereth the biggest deus ex machina ever found in a roguelike?
18:59:45 <Sgeo> It can be compiled out
19:00:24 <alise> Can you tame floating eyes?
19:00:36 <Sgeo> It would be far better to kill and eat it
19:00:52 <alise> I have nothing to kill it with, apart from melee.
19:00:57 <alise> I /do/ have food rations to tame it with.
19:01:17 <Sgeo> \<Sgeo> How dangerous is zapping an unknown wand at something that's not likely to kill you?
19:01:17 <Sgeo> <zgedneil> depends on if it's polymorph and the RNG hates you or not
19:05:37 <alise> WHY WILL THEY NOT ANSWER MY IMPORTANT FLOATING EYE TAMING QUESTIONS
19:05:47 -!- sshc_ has changed nick to sshc.
19:06:55 <fizzie> My guess would be: it doesn't eat, so you can't tame it.
19:07:10 <alise> Without magick, that is.
19:07:39 <fizzie> I am having a hard time visualizing a floating eye snacking on a food ration, anyway.
19:08:17 <alise> fizzie: Should I throw weapons and armor at it, zap my unIDed want, or do the much more fun thing of throwing food at it?
19:08:24 <alise> I've already thrown potions at it so it's a bit drugged up.
19:08:47 <Sgeo> alise, you can engrave-ID your wand
19:08:52 <alise> YES BUT THAT IS BORING.
19:08:58 <alise> fizzie: Okay that is another option added to the poll of you.
19:09:32 <fizzie> I usually try to lure them into some place where you can throw an item at it, wait for it to step aside, pick it up, and repeat ad nauseam. But they're not very good at following, and move slowly, so that's *very* boring.
19:09:49 <alise> Yes, I am optimising for fun here, seeing as I am only on dlvl 3.
19:09:50 <Sgeo> I usually be a wizard
19:10:13 <Sgeo> Weren't there some rocks on earlier levels?
19:10:28 <alise> GOD WHY ARE YOU ALL SO BORING
19:10:31 <alise> I'm going to throw food at it.
19:10:34 <fizzie> Well, if you want fun, throw a food item at it to see what happens; in the interests of scientif...
19:10:41 <alise> The food ration misses the floating eye.
19:10:46 <alise> How close do I have to be?
19:10:52 <alise> Is being right next to it safe as long as I don't attack?
19:11:02 <fizzie> Yes, you can stand right next to it.
19:11:04 <Sgeo> It should be, I th... WAIT
19:11:21 <Sgeo> fizzie, tell me if I'm wrong, but if you're blind, the floating eye can't paralize you
19:11:31 <fizzie> That should be true, yes.
19:11:50 <Sgeo> No way to identify BUC though
19:11:56 <alise> You know ... floating eyes don't scare me that much ...
19:12:01 <fizzie> I'm not guaranteeing anything, but I think it's a gazey sort of thing.
19:12:17 <fizzie> They don't scare you because you haven't been bitten to death by a grid bug.
19:12:22 <alise> The food rations are "missing" the eye, so there you go.
19:12:42 <alise> "The wand misses the floating eye."
19:12:52 <alise> It's a wand of STRIKING.
19:13:07 <fizzie> Heh: if a floating eye itself is blind, it also can't paralyze you.
19:13:10 <alise> Sgeo: How do I blind my fold?
19:13:19 <Sgeo> (a)pply it, I think
19:13:26 <Sgeo> But you may be blind for a while if it's ursed
19:13:41 <alise> Can I melee the floating eye now?
19:14:36 <fizzie> fungot: What would you do to a floating eye?
19:14:37 <fungot> fizzie: marilith: the gnats of the twentieth century. it is biscuitish, keeps good indefinitely, is a cat by talking gently to it.
19:14:41 <alise> Now how do I take it off?!
19:14:43 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack* pa speeches ss wp youtube
19:14:59 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
19:15:07 <alise> Sgeo: Floating eye corpse; you must be so happy.
19:15:09 <fungot> Selected style: nethack (NetHack 3.4.3 data.base, rumors.tru, rumors.fal)
19:15:12 <alise> fungot: isn't topicality good?!
19:15:12 <fungot> alise: blindfold: the hitchhiker's guide to fantasyland, by terry pratchett) a constellation of the very solemn venerable i-hsiu to our base for a great snake was gone. the sword to be untainted! beware the jubjub bird, and held aloft the sacred icon. the other. teeth and claws fear what they saw; but with the king, orcrist: the hades. poseidon is associated in many ways with horses and thus is the property of fortune cookies,
19:15:21 <alise> Sgeo: I feel a strange mental acuity.
19:15:22 <Sgeo> alise, congratulations
19:15:34 <alise> "the hitchhiker's guide to fantasyland, by terry pratchett"
19:15:37 <Sgeo> Put the blindfold back on... oh, and you may want to name that one
19:15:42 <Sgeo> Since you know it's not cursed
19:15:43 <alise> Why put it back on?
19:16:04 <Sgeo> noncursed, but whatever
19:16:04 <coppro> did he eat the corpse?
19:16:14 <alise> I know, I can see monsters.
19:16:21 <coppro> yeah, then you get telepathy
19:16:26 <alise> What about exploration?
19:16:32 <Sgeo> It won't show you all monsters though
19:16:35 <Sgeo> Just ones with minds
19:16:56 <alise> Now can I take it off? :P
19:17:16 <alise> Can you tame humanoids?
19:17:25 <Sgeo> You aren't going to search that area?
19:17:26 <fizzie> You'll also be feeling around for the cockatrice corpses and other nice things, if you walk around blindfolded.
19:17:36 <alise> Sgeo: Yes, yes, as soon as I get a hobbit for a pet.
19:17:54 <alise> So, yeah, can I feed hobbits? >_>
19:18:10 <Sgeo> Bilbo, bilbo, bilbo BAGGINS!
19:18:16 <Sgeo> Greatest little hobbit of them all!
19:20:14 <fizzie> IIRC, you can only tame the domesticated animals (dogs, cats, horses) by throwing food.
19:21:44 <Sgeo> That was smart, alise
19:21:52 <alise> Sgeo: They both missed me and I got darts.
19:22:50 <alise> Flags: poison resistance, acid resistance, sleep resistance, petrification resistance, nolimbs, acid, mindless, amorphous, breathless, nohead, noeyes, nohands, neuter, wander
19:22:50 <Sgeo> That was a bad idea
19:22:53 <alise> Good enough for me!
19:22:58 <alise> Sgeo: Well ... it's not POISONOUS ... >_>
19:25:19 <alise> Sgeo: Where are THOSE guys from?
19:25:59 <alise> EXPLAIN THAT, SCIENCE
19:26:23 <Sgeo> fizzie, take a look at this
19:26:38 <alise> THE The L is the corner of a square :P
19:27:02 <alise> Oh, I see, they're powerful.
19:27:16 <alise> And there isn't a white one.
19:27:21 <alise> Sgeo: where are those ueBBs?
19:27:33 <Sgeo> Someplace you haven't found yet, apparently
19:28:14 <Sgeo> I'd suggest searching the room with a fountain or the room east of that
19:28:49 <Sgeo> Don't lie, it's an align penalty
19:28:59 <Sgeo> And don't die please
19:29:01 <alise> Is attacking an align penalty?
19:29:11 <alise> Sgeo: Well, you have to admit I'm not exactly doing well this game >.>
19:29:13 <Sgeo> It's a "you die" penalty, probably
19:29:58 <Sgeo> fizzie, get in here and convince alise to surrender
19:30:21 <Sgeo> Since when do you even USE the money?
19:32:13 <alise> Sgeo: Don't say alise is considering it
19:32:44 <alise> It's just that you're only asking about the really stupid stuff I consider >__>
19:33:55 <alise> Sgeo: How about I start another game which I actually take seriously?
19:34:19 <Sgeo> Or you could live in this one
19:35:10 <Sgeo> You have safe blindfold and telepathy
19:36:07 <Sgeo> There's gold in that diagonal, don't know if it's safe
19:36:17 <alise> It's ... inaccessible.
19:36:46 <Sgeo> Hmm, maybe dig for it at some point
19:37:05 <Sgeo> At least you know it's there
19:37:41 <Sgeo> BTW, the corridor should disappear when you leav
19:38:02 <alise> I got bored of dlvl 4.
19:38:06 -!- ais523 has joined.
19:38:16 <alise> I'm playing Nethack like a moron!
19:38:27 <Sgeo> I managed to talk alise out of vault-guard-related suicide
19:38:29 <alise> Then I tried to tame a floating eye.
19:38:33 <alise> Fun fact: they can't eat.
19:38:42 <alise> Then I considered fighting a vault guard.
19:39:25 <alise> ais523 is silently facepalming
19:40:01 <ais523> at least you didn't /actually/ fight the vault guard
19:40:09 <alise> ais523: it's all on termcast, if you want to have a laugh
19:40:16 <alise> NOT ANOTHER FLOATING EYE
19:40:20 <ais523> (hint: if you can leave the vault anyway, claim to be called "Croesus" and they'll go away; if you can't, you need the guard to lead you out)
19:40:25 <alise> I couldn't leave anyway.
19:40:31 <alise> Can you drop just the amount you stole?
19:40:35 <alise> Or does it have to be all your cash?
19:40:44 <ais523> it's how they get all their money
19:41:01 <alise> Can you get two guards to fight each other? That would be amazing.
19:41:17 <ais523> I'm not sure how you get two guards at the same time; revgeno, maybe
19:41:26 <ais523> but you could probably get them to fight each other via conflict
19:42:01 <Sgeo> Don't eat the fungus
19:42:03 <ais523> although not with very high levels of concentration
19:42:14 <ais523> watch out for that golem
19:42:21 <ais523> also, why are you meleeing floating eyes?
19:42:25 <ais523> alise: there's a monster in the bottom-left corner
19:42:29 <alise> ais523: that was a mistake
19:42:31 <alise> ais523: that golem turned to flee
19:42:45 <ais523> finish it before it heals up
19:44:03 <alise> Good thing I have telepathy.
19:44:48 <Sgeo> Japanese arrow
19:45:01 <Sgeo> Had to wiki that
19:45:58 <alise> Well, that was easy.
19:46:21 <Sgeo> Weren't you just at 70?
19:46:30 <ais523> alise: is the hpmon patch in your version?
19:46:33 <Sgeo> Oooh, whistle. Good for pets
19:46:41 <alise> Equip these combat boots?
19:46:44 <ais523> it's buggy (not in a bad way, just display glitches) but useful
19:46:47 <ais523> check the options screen
19:46:54 <alise> ais523: statuscolours is a non-buggy, expanded hpmon ftr
19:46:57 <alise> archlinux never patches packages
19:46:59 <alise> unless to fix breakage
19:47:06 <alise> there are a few pre-patched versions in the repos
19:47:11 <alise> but they have a bunch of useless crap too
19:47:34 <ais523> isn't it Arch that installed NetHack suid root despite common sense?
19:47:52 <alise> arch packages are very vanilla
19:47:55 <alise> basically just configure, make, install
19:48:03 <alise> gentoo like fucking things up with their useflags.
19:49:28 <alise> Sgeo: ANOTHER floating eye corpse!
19:50:01 <Sgeo> You already have telepathy
19:50:27 <alise> Is now a good time to pray.
19:50:33 <Sgeo> Well, pray or die
19:50:48 <alise> Well, I /did/ kill Felix.
19:50:49 <Sgeo> Check inventory
19:50:56 <ais523> you die in around 30 turns
19:51:01 <alise> Sgeo: what isn't he happy with?
19:51:03 <ais523> drink the unIDed potions, they're your best chance
19:51:05 <alise> I need something in my inventory
19:51:07 -!- ais523 has changed nick to ais523_.
19:51:08 <alise> ais523: all of them?!
19:51:21 <alise> thanks, mysterious t potion
19:51:27 <ais523_> must have been full healing
19:51:36 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
19:51:46 <alise> ais523_: If only I actually needed it, rather than got myself into a stupid situation.
19:51:51 <ais523_> besides, I doubt extra is powerful enough
19:52:18 <alise> I have a wand of striking; are those any good?
19:52:30 <ais523_> they're force bolt in wand form
19:52:31 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523.
19:52:44 <ais523> not much good for combat, but they destroy a bunch of inanimate objects
19:52:46 <ais523> like doors and boulders
19:53:47 <fizzie> Non-cursed extra healing does cure sickness: case POT_EXTRA_HEALING: .. healup(.. /* arg 3: */ !otmp->cursed ..); 3 is curesick.
19:53:59 <alise> ais523: incidentally, i completely wiped out a throne room before
19:54:03 <alise> ais523: with like exp 3
19:54:14 <alise> took ages, but it was fun
19:54:18 <alise> the throne disappeared on the first go :P
19:54:35 <alise> now, raiding /this/ room without the ability to pray or a pet... wish me luck
19:54:38 <fizzie> potion.c:323, immediately above dodrink(): /* "Quaffing is like drinking, except you spill more." -- Terry Pratchett */
19:55:12 <Sgeo> Note rapidly-lowering HP
19:55:44 <ais523> I wouldn't be concerned until it went down to 60 or so
19:55:54 <ais523> at which point, you have to wonder why it went that low, and how quickly
19:56:39 -!- zzo38 has joined.
19:56:46 <fizzie> That's one batty level.
19:56:46 <Sgeo> This is level with Sokoban entrance
19:57:11 <alise> She stole the unIDed one.
19:57:37 <zzo38> Do you like this D&D spell? http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/options/Good_Insane_Spell.s
19:57:46 <Sgeo> I forgot whether you eat blue jellies
19:57:54 <alise> ais523: i'm a valkyrie
19:57:58 <alise> ais523: but i'm also stunned!
19:58:11 <ais523> well, at least you're in a corridor
19:58:33 <ais523> being stunned means any direction key you press counts as a random direction
19:58:39 <zzo38> ais523: Wrong corridor, sorry
19:58:48 <ais523> so it helps to be in a corridor or somewhere like that to increase the chance of getting what you want
19:58:57 <alise> ais523: it's weighted, isn't it?
19:58:58 <ais523> although, that rock mole seems to have dug the corridor much wider
19:59:13 <ais523> it's confusion where it's weighted to the direction you pressed
20:00:05 <alise> i don't need scimitar, lance, 7 ya
20:00:06 <Sgeo> Oh, at some point, engrave with the gems
20:00:38 <zzo38> What spell level should the spell that I wrote be belonged to?
20:01:02 <alise> ais523: axe, spear, lance
20:01:04 <alise> ais523: which sucks the most?
20:01:15 <ais523> the axe has pretty much no legit use
20:01:21 <ais523> the spear is only useful when thrown
20:01:23 <zzo38> (The word "level" is even a palindrome, if that cares at all........?)
20:01:30 <ais523> and the lance is a polearm
20:01:36 <ais523> you can (a)pply it to hit something at range 2
20:01:45 <alise> ais523: basically i need to drop shit
20:01:49 <alise> combat boots any good?
20:01:51 <Sgeo> Does that count as melee against floating eyes?
20:01:52 <ais523> drop it anyway, it's rather heavy
20:01:58 <ais523> and combat boots are randomized-appearance
20:01:58 <alise> uncursed +3 small shield, +0 chain mail, +0 orcish helm, combat boots
20:02:00 * alise drops combat boots
20:02:05 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
20:02:06 <ais523> they could be excellent, but also could be cursed fumbling or whatever
20:02:14 <alise> do i need the orcish helm?
20:02:14 <ais523> ideally, you should BCU them, then wear them if not cursed
20:02:44 <Sgeo> Could you imagine if a seach revealed a non-diagonal route?
20:02:45 <ais523> besides, don't really worry about being able to move diagonally
20:02:49 <Sgeo> Or that there was another way there?
20:02:59 <ais523> you need to be at half your carry cap to do it
20:03:10 * Sgeo learns something new
20:03:39 <ais523> alise: you seem to stockpile more weapons than everyone else...
20:03:46 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
20:03:58 <alise> ais523: because I end up in sticky situations with a lot of monsters more than anyone else
20:04:57 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Client Quit).
20:04:59 <ais523> and extra weapons, other than ammo, help how in that situation?
20:05:10 <alise> more shit to throw
20:05:17 <zzo38> Do you like any of these spells? http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/options/Good_Insane_Spell.s http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/options/Patamagician.c http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/options/Minimize_Spell.f http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/options/Self_Sacrifice.s
20:05:31 <alise> ais523: i've got to points where i just start disrobing and chucking armour
20:05:34 <ais523> most people would collect, say, 12 daggers and multithrow them, then throw scimitars and arrows and axes one at a time
20:05:34 <alise> it isn't terribly effective.
20:05:42 <alise> do you just mean throw a lot?
20:05:50 <ais523> if you have a stack of many dagers
20:05:54 <ais523> then you can throw more than one in a turn
20:06:00 <ais523> especially with practice
20:06:04 <alise> wait, this isn't the level i faced before
20:06:08 <alise> is this the harder variant?
20:06:12 <ais523> and no, two variants for each sokoban
20:06:20 <ais523> that one probably is slightly harder, but still easy
20:06:27 <alise> Easy if you're good at Sokoban.
20:06:28 <Sgeo> This looks easier to me, actually
20:06:38 <ais523> nah, the bottom-right area's a bit harder
20:06:46 <alise> I'm not actually sure which move to make first :-)
20:06:50 <ais523> alise: move the boulder to your right one square right, then all the way to the left
20:07:14 <alise> do slime molds preserve?
20:07:20 <Sgeo> They should, I think
20:07:27 <ais523> they're a customisable-name item, "slime mold" is just the default
20:07:35 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
20:07:39 <ais523> leave those three until you've done everything else
20:07:40 <alise> ais523: just looking for food
20:07:48 <zzo38> ais523: Can they ever do it in Nethack that the Sokoban levels will sometimes be mirrored or flipped? Or only two variants?
20:07:51 <ais523> anyway, "fruit" is the general name
20:07:59 <alise> slime mold is quite nice though
20:08:04 <ais523> zzo38: some forks like UnNetHack will mirror or rotate Sokoban levels
20:08:09 <ais523> but unpatched NetHack doesn't
20:08:16 <alise> is unnethack any good?
20:08:27 <ais523> I dislike many of its gameplay changes, but the interface is much better
20:08:29 <zzo38> And what happens if you change the "slime mold" name to the same name as another kind of item?
20:08:30 <ais523> it's rather harder than vanilla
20:08:46 <ais523> zzo38: nothing special if it's not food; if it is, the name of the fruit is changed so you can tell the two apart
20:09:02 <ais523> "candied cockatrice corpse", or whatever
20:09:18 <alise> ". You die..." --suggestion for slime mold name
20:09:38 <alise> yes, it's from a page of them
20:10:02 <ais523> move the lone one at the bottom
20:10:27 <ais523> or it'll be trapped behind the boulder
20:10:31 <alise> i don't know where it is
20:10:36 <ais523> just move the boulder, and throw stuff at it if you get stuck
20:11:01 <ais523> you probably want to name it now
20:11:33 <zzo38> What I think is Nethack needs is make the program treat player characters and non player characters all as the same. Also, no restriction race/class combination. And, also, in the class selection a "none" option, and in the race selection "enter any one" option, and a "Bishop's Curse" scroll you can move only diagonally, and a Forth interpreter built-in, and more ideas.....
20:11:43 <alise> ais523: if i get the difficult level 2 variant again i'm just going to kill myself in a comical way, okay? :P
20:11:59 <alise> zzo38: Everything's Forth with you, isn't it?
20:12:33 <ais523> now just put that one into the pits
20:12:48 <alise> ais523: sorry; I am pretty much a thinko machine
20:12:50 <ais523> rule of Sokoban you seem to be missing: if you /can/ move a boulder to the pits safely without disturbing any of the others, do so
20:12:54 <alise> hey, can i crawl out of that pit onto the <? >_>
20:12:59 <alise> ais523: no, i didn't miss that
20:13:01 <ais523> alise: yep, but it only works on the bottom level
20:13:03 <alise> i just didn't realise i could move thato ne in >_>
20:13:11 <alise> ais523: any penalties?
20:13:30 <ais523> apart from damage for falling into a pit
20:13:37 <ais523> it doesn't work on the other levels, though
20:13:38 <alise> yay the easy variant! (I presume)
20:13:44 <ais523> at least, compared to the other one
20:14:02 <zzo38> alise: Not everything is Forth with me all the time, I just think it should be added, and then various things can be rewritten in Forth, but not all features
20:14:03 <ais523> I'll walk you through the solution if you like
20:14:11 <alise> ais523: lemme guess: push this one until i can move around it
20:14:15 <alise> then go and knock the first ones in
20:14:16 <ais523> move the boulder to your left to make the top-left line of 2 into a line of 3
20:14:24 <ais523> so, left 4 spaces, then up 1
20:14:26 <Sgeo> Forth : zzo38 :: Smalltalk : Sgeo
20:14:47 <ais523> sokoban 1 is a great place to stash your stuff, btw
20:14:54 <ais523> easy to access, and relatively empty of monsters
20:15:00 <ais523> and you can put your stuff under a boulder if you like
20:15:04 <alise> ais523: I'll drop combat boots, but what weapons are the crappest?
20:15:15 <alise> want to lighten my load a little
20:15:26 <ais523> the ya as you don't have a launcher, the knife because it does pitiful damage, the axe because it's rubbish
20:15:35 <ais523> also, the scimitar is heavy compared to its minimal use for throwing
20:15:41 <ais523> and the lance is more useful but also heavy
20:15:49 <ais523> use capital D to multidrop
20:16:04 <alise> go down here, yeah?
20:16:07 <ais523> move the boulder immediately below you up
20:16:21 <ais523> the one 1 square below you
20:16:22 <alise> The one just below me?
20:16:30 <alise> pressed the key by mistake
20:16:33 <alise> i was about to move around
20:16:38 <alise> I blame my keyboard, for once.
20:16:41 <ais523> OK, none of those 4 move now without cheating
20:16:44 <ais523> you'll probably have to break one
20:16:50 <alise> is breaking one cheating :P
20:16:54 <ais523> yes, but it's only -1 luck
20:17:00 <ais523> you should break the bottom-left one
20:17:00 <alise> just break it downwards?
20:17:03 <ais523> with a wand of striking
20:17:23 <ais523> you want to only break one boulder
20:17:26 <ais523> so break it from there
20:17:35 <ais523> (striking doesn't bounce, btw)
20:17:43 <ais523> OK, move the leftmose boulder up
20:17:44 <alise> ok, now I'm at a loss
20:18:06 <ais523> then move the centre boulder of those 5 right
20:18:12 <ais523> again, as far as it goes
20:18:34 <ais523> the boulder in column 4 moves
20:18:37 <ais523> without disturbing the others
20:18:54 <ais523> then you can do the two in column 5, then the two in column 3
20:19:16 <ais523> leave the two in column 1 for now
20:19:31 <ais523> now, you push the boulders from the room before
20:19:45 <alise> this is remarkably easier
20:19:51 <alise> really? that was quick
20:19:56 <ais523> turn 4800 is a turn that restores luck
20:19:57 <alise> are there any more things i can show on my status bar, btw?
20:19:57 <zzo38> Did you write any comment of the D&D spell, yet?
20:20:01 <ais523> it's any turn divisible by 600
20:20:10 <ais523> alise: showexp is the only thing you could turn on
20:20:11 <alise> zzo38: nope, ais523 is busy walking me through nethack sokoban :P
20:20:17 <alise> ais523: ah, that sounds quite useful actually
20:20:18 <ais523> it shows how close you are to the next level
20:20:37 <ais523> and it's lead to some fun instadeaths due to high level players not noticing they were deathly sick
20:20:43 <ais523> due to showexp pushing it off the end of their status bar
20:20:55 <ais523> move the lower one in your current room left
20:20:56 <alise> <Rodney> ButterMuffin (Wiz Hum Mal Neu), 29568 points, killed by an invisible stalker
20:21:01 <alise> from the INTERNET!
20:21:24 <ais523> now, those two in the right room
20:21:29 <ais523> push them into the left room, then back
20:21:59 <ais523> that lone boulder on the third row in the top-left room
20:22:00 <alise> ais523: I can't believe this is only turn 4978
20:22:04 <ais523> push it into the top-right room
20:22:08 <alise> btw, couldn't i crawl out of the rightmost bit to go to the door? XD
20:22:32 <ais523> I don't know what you mean
20:22:37 <ais523> bear in mind that Sokoban traps can't be escaped
20:22:46 <ais523> so you can fight them one at a time
20:23:11 <alise> Deewiant: don't tell me you're watching too :D
20:23:13 <ais523> with an angry god, it's probably not worth trying to eat them
20:23:26 <ais523> str dropped to 16, but you have poison res now
20:23:26 <alise> The killer bee corpse healed the killer bee corpse.
20:23:42 <ais523> although anything can blecch
20:23:45 <ais523> that wasn't your fault, just random chance
20:23:57 <ais523> move the one NE of you to the pits
20:24:09 <ais523> down two, left one, ...
20:24:33 <ais523> the one blocking the entrance to the northeast room moves next
20:24:36 <ais523> push it right hten back left
20:24:45 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:24:51 <ais523> and you still have five left over, even though you broke one
20:25:02 <ais523> don't eat the bat, btw
20:25:22 -!- augur has joined.
20:25:35 <ais523> eat the naga hatchling
20:26:00 <alise> Yes, but I'm going to tame it.
20:26:14 <Deewiant> He has 70+ hp and it's a kitten :-P
20:26:22 <alise> Something wrong with kittens?
20:26:35 <ais523> I don't see why you aren't just going upstairs
20:26:39 <alise> STOP PLAYING WITH THE GIANT BAT CORPSE
20:26:40 <alise> ais523: resting for HP
20:26:46 <ais523> yep, but you're only down 10
20:26:54 <alise> I'm not going for low turns
20:26:54 <ais523> and it'll heal as you solve the next puzzle
20:27:12 <ais523> I was going to say, kick the ring so you could pick it up later
20:27:32 <ais523> typical way to rescue non-fragile items from Sokoban holes
20:27:57 <ais523> Elbereth won't help against the wand
20:28:12 <ais523> heh, they killed each other
20:28:18 <ais523> this level is easy to mess up earlyt
20:28:23 <ais523> so I'll walk you through the first few moves
20:28:25 <alise> did i just get rid of my kitten again?
20:28:28 <alise> coppro: i got onto sokoban
20:28:30 <alise> coppro: hilarity ensued
20:28:31 <ais523> she's around here somewhere, I expect
20:28:41 <alise> you don't think i oughta rest?
20:28:42 <ais523> push the boulder to your left left, then back right
20:28:52 <ais523> and monsters spawn just as fast
20:28:57 <Sgeo> What exciting adventures did death did I miss?
20:29:05 <ais523> careful not to let the kitten get trapped behind a boulder
20:29:08 <alise> Sgeo: No death so far!
20:29:13 <ais523> so you can pick it up later
20:29:13 <alise> ais523: I've already killed Felix this game
20:29:26 <ais523> now, this is the subtle bit
20:29:34 <ais523> grr, you screwed it up
20:29:35 <alise> Which I just fucked up.
20:29:36 <Sgeo> ..not doing that
20:29:41 <alise> I thought I saw a clear path X_X
20:29:48 <alise> I'm sorry for being useless :D
20:29:51 <ais523> move to the top-right of this area without pushing any boulders
20:30:04 <ais523> then push that boulder down 3
20:30:13 <ais523> then the boulder to your SW down 3
20:30:25 <alise> how? there's one in the way
20:30:39 <ais523> you need to get your cat out of there
20:30:45 <Deewiant> Then take the boulder to your W
20:30:54 <ais523> no, he's just faster than you
20:30:57 <Sgeo> ....?????????????/
20:31:00 <alise> i was trying to move around it
20:31:02 <zzo38> We need to add more class in NetHack: No-Class, Computer-Programmer, Alchemist, Pacifist, Evangelist, Slaves, Casino-Owner, Ninja, Serial-Killer, The-Boss, ...etc...
20:31:08 <ais523> moved two squares a turn
20:31:08 <alise> THIS IS WHY I DON'T LIKE SOKOBAN
20:31:13 <ais523> anyway, just shatter that boulder
20:31:18 <ais523> if you want to solve the level
20:31:27 <Deewiant> Have to anyway, he blocked the down stairs
20:31:34 <Sgeo> Wow, alise is unlucky
20:31:37 <ais523> nah, you could bail out by jumping through the holes
20:31:53 <ais523> boulder to your left, push it 1 left then lots right
20:31:53 <Deewiant> But assuming he wants to exit after solving
20:32:00 <ais523> not now, the kitten's left
20:32:11 <Deewiant> Then the boulder N of that 1 down and right
20:32:12 <zzo38> Do you know of anyone implemented these kind of classes I described, in NetHack or any other kind of roguelike games?
20:32:23 <ais523> zzo38: there are programmers in ZAPM, I think
20:32:51 <ais523> and Pacifist is a /conduct/ in NetHack
20:32:51 <alise> ais523: now this one down, right?
20:32:56 <alise> then go around and push it right
20:33:20 <zzo38> They need to add a select for having no class?
20:33:40 <ais523> zzo38: what would you do for starting equipment?
20:33:49 <ais523> in NetHack, those are all determined by class
20:33:56 <zzo38> ais523: Select average stats and no equipment
20:34:17 <alise> ais523: the most topright one, push down?
20:34:47 <alise> ais523: topleft one left, down?
20:34:50 <ais523> then the one to the right of the one you just moved, push it left and down
20:35:12 <alise> How many more agonising levels of this are left?
20:35:14 <alise> Just out of curiosityl
20:35:24 <ais523> the next boulder's a bit tricky, though
20:35:24 <alise> STOP BEING INCONSISTENT :p
20:35:30 <zzo38> What they need, is, all player characters and non-player-characters all are treated in same way and are represented using the same structures in the program, except that the player character is a special variable and the "control" field is set to "CHCTRL_MANUAL_PRIMARY"
20:35:33 <ais523> alise: I think sgeo was counting this one
20:35:50 <Sgeo> Did alise go up a level since I last checked?
20:35:51 <ais523> then push the leftmost boulder up 1
20:35:54 <Sgeo> Um, he did, ah
20:35:56 <ais523> Sgeo: this is the third
20:36:14 <ais523> then the bottom boulder left 2
20:36:20 <ais523> (try not to let Felix II get trapped)
20:36:26 <ais523> now, the boulder above you down
20:36:32 <zzo38> Do you think this idea, including "control" field, is workable in any roguelikes?
20:36:41 <ais523> leftmost up, then middle down
20:37:02 <ais523> zzo38: it might screw up game balance
20:37:04 <alise> yay i get to have two cats
20:37:17 <Sgeo> There may be more monsters in that room
20:37:25 <ais523> the leftmost moves left, up, left, left, then to the pits
20:37:36 <alise> ais523: btw, Felix died of starvation before!
20:37:39 <alise> he yelped and then just sort of died
20:37:41 <zzo38> You can have different constants for character controlling, such as: CHCTRL_MANUAL, CHCTRL_MANUAL_PRIMARY, CHCTRL_NOOP, CHCTRL_HOSTILE, CHCTRL_NEUTRAL, etc
20:37:48 <ais523> if your pet starts complaining, chuck food at it
20:37:59 <Sgeo> All I knew is that yelping is bad
20:38:02 <Sgeo> I didn't know what to do
20:38:08 <Sgeo> I have FAILED FELIX!
20:38:21 <zzo38> ais523: It won't mess up game balance if the rest of the game is designed around it to be not mess up game balance.....
20:38:24 <ais523> alise: you know there was a creature there once, but not what
20:38:42 <ais523> generally, they aren't still there by the time you get there
20:38:45 <ais523> alise: let felix kill it?
20:38:47 <alise> Dammit, Felix 2: Electric Boogaloo!
20:38:53 <ais523> or do you really want to keep the wizard alive for some reason?
20:38:59 <alise> No, I just didn't want a fight :P
20:38:59 <coppro> 15:27 < b4taylor> Paperclip?
20:39:04 <ais523> you can still displace it out the way
20:39:20 <ais523> and you can move diagonally between monsters
20:39:24 <ais523> or between a monster and boulder
20:39:36 <alise> can I kill it with the boulder
20:39:41 <zzo38> CHCTRL_SPECIAL, CHCTRL_VERY_HOSTILE, CHCTRL_RANDOM, CHCTRL_COMPANION, and so on....
20:39:42 <ais523> and probably not, unless it's in a pit
20:39:52 <Deewiant> Kill it from a distance if you can
20:40:05 <ais523> switch back to sowrd now
20:40:07 <Deewiant> Oh right, sokoban is non-teleport
20:40:12 <ais523> lances don't work well at range 1
20:40:24 <ais523> nymphs cna't run easily in sokoban, though
20:40:31 <Deewiant> Now the nymph is blocking your boulder
20:40:32 <ais523> it's probably the numph
20:40:38 <Deewiant> Oh, you can lance through a boulder?
20:40:41 <alise> You won't hit anything if you can't see that spot.
20:40:42 <ais523> ugh, doesn't fit over the boulder
20:40:50 <ais523> you could throw stuff, but it'd hit the cat
20:40:59 <Sgeo> No, The DevTeam didn't think of everything?
20:41:02 <alise> as long as it frees this up?
20:41:03 <ais523> well, given that she can't fight back
20:41:10 <alise> ais523: am i meant to feel pitiful?
20:41:24 <Deewiant> If you blind yourself so that you can telepathy-see it, you might be able to lance it
20:41:40 <ais523> Deewiant: I think it's based on LOS, not line of telepathy
20:41:49 <Deewiant> I was hoping that wouldn't work :-P
20:42:12 <ais523> quiver isn't necessary, it's just a timesaver
20:42:16 <ais523> as in, RL time, not gametime
20:42:25 <ais523> use Q in order to set an item as your default to throw
20:42:32 <ais523> then you can throw it with f without selecting the item each time
20:42:33 <alise> You feel like an evil coward for using a poisoned weapon.--More--
20:42:41 <ais523> meh, the penalty's meaningless
20:42:41 <alise> The poison was deadly...
20:42:47 <ais523> and it did instakill the nymph
20:42:55 <alise> Ooh, looking glass!
20:43:01 <ais523> the potion is /probably/ object detection, btw
20:43:02 <alise> Sgeo: LOOKING GLASS DAMMIT
20:43:03 <ais523> but that isn't guaranteed
20:43:10 <alise> would you have called Alice's second book
20:43:11 <Deewiant> alise: Identify it and it's a mirror, IIRC
20:43:12 <alise> Through the Mirror?
20:43:29 <ais523> push the top boulder down
20:43:30 <alise> ais523: down, left
20:43:38 -!- Gregor-P has joined.
20:44:24 <ais523> the boulder in the centre
20:44:25 <zzo38> An idea that can work in nearly any computer game with experience points, is this: After you reach maximum experience level, the experience points start working backwards instead. And then once it is back at minimum, it no longer changes during the rest of the game. This way you try not to waste too much time and stuff to complete the game
20:44:26 <alise> ais523: now it's the 00 bit, isn't it?
20:44:28 <ais523> move it right two, then left 3
20:44:41 <ais523> then along the same path as the previous boulder
20:44:45 <ais523> you have to run round at this point
20:45:10 <ais523> normally you don't care
20:45:12 <zzo38> Is this idea about experience level, sensible for you?
20:45:23 <Gregor-P> zzo38: In terms of being a simile for life though, that's weird.
20:45:27 <ais523> zzo38: no, due to the ease of reducing your own XP
20:45:47 <ais523> I like Wesnoth's XP system; after you reach max level, you get fully healed whenever you would level up
20:45:53 <ais523> and also get a meaningless boost to max HP
20:45:59 <Sgeo> "meaningless"?
20:46:14 <alise> ais523: why is Felix 2: Electric Boogaloo a bloodthirsty murderer?
20:46:18 <ais523> because pets are like that
20:46:32 <alise> ais523: is two cats in sokoban insanity or AWESOME?
20:46:33 <zzo38> ais523: No, I don't like that.... I think for a computer game, my idea of experience points workable way!!
20:46:33 <ais523> it's up to you whether to gain felix 3, or just kill that cat
20:46:36 <Sgeo> Because he's preparing to turn on you when you next try to kill him
20:46:42 <alise> ais523: i can always tame it and then let it die :D
20:47:07 * alise checks to see if Breakin' had a second sequel
20:47:21 <alise> "Electric Boogaloo" - Ollie & Jerry
20:47:21 <alise> "Radiotron" - Firefox
20:47:23 <alise> let's go with Radiotron
20:47:50 <ais523> that's what they're for
20:48:00 <alise> (to watch the action)
20:48:11 <ais523> wait, what killed felix 2?
20:48:16 <alise> Stupid enough to attack a gnomish wizard
20:48:16 <ais523> something that doesn't show up on telepathy
20:48:24 <ais523> kill that rat yourself
20:48:41 <zzo38> Gregor-P: Yes it is weird but it is a computer game
20:48:51 <ais523> it's the wererat that's dangerous
20:48:53 <Sgeo> Aren't you glad you didn't kill Felix 3 yet?
20:48:57 <alise> ais523: it's following me
20:49:00 <ais523> take off the blindfold
20:49:14 <ais523> because there might be something hostile and mindless
20:49:22 <ais523> you don't want to be cornered by a golem or whatever
20:49:27 <alise> just run from this wererat, right?
20:49:33 <alise> or attack with lance if i must?
20:49:34 <ais523> and run upstairs before it catches you
20:49:41 <ais523> and sword's likely better
20:49:45 <ais523> as the lance doesn't work at range 1
20:49:55 <Sgeo> Ooh, smoky potion
20:50:01 <ais523> ooh, amulet of reflection level
20:50:09 <ais523> this one is a pain, especially as two of the boulders are fake
20:50:10 <alise> see, i am not pleased here
20:50:23 <ais523> (although you can see them via telepathy)
20:50:23 <coppro> won't telepathy reveal the fake boulders?
20:50:30 <ais523> Sgeo: mimics pretending to be boulders
20:50:39 <ais523> ok, now we know where the fakes are, this is a bit easier
20:50:46 <alise> keep blindfold for now?
20:50:51 <alise> also: omg @ those monsters
20:50:52 <ais523> I'd normally go without
20:50:56 <alise> what have i gotten myself into
20:50:59 <ais523> and welcome to the boss at the end of Sokoban
20:50:59 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
20:51:00 <alise> ais523: memorised the positoins? :P
20:51:08 <alise> BOSS? that's not a boss, that's a ... I don't know what that is
20:51:13 <alise> ais523: well, I'll tame those two cats and dogs
20:51:15 <alise> to help me fight it
20:51:22 <ais523> yep, once you get there
20:51:26 <ais523> first you have to solve the puzzle
20:51:29 <ais523> anyway, first boulder goes right
20:51:31 <alise> yes, that is the difficult bit
20:51:42 <ais523> kill the first fake boulder
20:51:48 <ais523> it's the left of that pair to your left
20:52:04 <ais523> you can eat the corpse for a funny message
20:52:07 <ais523> it doesn't do anything bad
20:52:09 <Sgeo> Unless you want to be miney for a while
20:52:18 <alise> ais523: I love the "mimicking a dwarf again" bit
20:52:19 <ais523> ok, go back to the original boulder
20:52:19 <Sgeo> Wait, it doesn't take turns?
20:52:25 <alise> like, i start actually believing that i'm a mime.
20:52:26 <ais523> Sgeo: not turns on which anything bad happens
20:52:40 <ais523> if monsters turn up, you ambush them
20:52:41 <alise> push one right or one left?
20:52:51 <alise> <alise> push one right or one left?
20:52:53 <Sgeo> ais523, ah, awesome
20:52:59 <ais523> push it right two squares
20:53:14 <alise> is this one meant to be near-impossible?
20:53:17 <zzo38> O, a lot of people can tame a dog and cat, tame somethings else. Tame a spider, or tame yourself, or the big monster with a lot of invisibility and so much poison that you are instantly dead if you touched it
20:53:18 <ais523> then move the one to the right of the one you just pushed up one square
20:53:28 <ais523> alise: well, I did it first time with only two mistakes, unspoilt
20:53:35 <alise> ais523: right, but you're good at sokoban
20:53:40 <ais523> alise: the one to the right of the one you just moved, up two
20:53:49 <alise> zzo38: taming cats & dogs only takes a ration, though
20:53:56 <alise> although i'm out of tripe
20:54:07 <alise> zzo38: it can only go up one
20:54:07 <Sgeo> One person supposedly tamed Pestilence
20:54:12 <alise> Sgeo: yes, and ascended with it
20:54:19 <ais523> alise: you'll have to typo less often
20:54:21 <alise> ais523: oh to the right.
20:54:25 <ais523> smash the boulder you just moved
20:54:31 <ais523> whilst not smashing any of the others
20:54:44 <alise> I am a disgrace to humanity
20:54:45 <ais523> kill the fake boulder, anyway
20:54:49 <ais523> it's the one in the topleft corner
20:54:54 <zzo38> alise: Yes, of course, they are easy, ify ou can find ration, that is why you have to try for the other ways. Tame yourself instead, perhaps?
20:55:09 <ais523> anyway, the boulder next to the centre room
20:55:12 <ais523> push it left two spaces
20:55:21 -!- jcp has joined.
20:55:29 <ais523> (left /two/ spaces, that was one)
20:55:29 <alise> don't you mean THREE spaces
20:55:45 <ais523> then push the boulder to your left two spaces
20:55:48 <alise> we both have skills and flaws here!
20:55:48 <ais523> (and it is two, this time)
20:56:00 <ais523> push the boulder above you up one
20:56:02 <Sgeo> Well, ya can't push it 3 anyway
20:56:10 <ais523> then the boulder over the left up one
20:56:20 <ais523> push the boulder below you down one first
20:56:36 <ais523> now move the top-left up one
20:56:37 <Sgeo> There's an easy to move boulder
20:56:50 <ais523> this one's obvious, at least
20:56:58 <ais523> now move the rightmost of the ones you can move down one
20:56:58 <alise> i'm going to lose felix 3, aren't I?
20:57:07 <ais523> alise: as long as it's on the same level, it won't untame
20:57:26 <ais523> move the top-left one up, right, rigtht
20:57:46 <ais523> the next one is obvious
20:57:54 <coppro> I dislike both of the level 4 sokobans
20:57:57 <ais523> move the one blocking the centre room up one
20:58:02 <alise> I dislike [...] sokobans.
20:58:08 <ais523> coppro: I like the solution to the BoH sokoban that doesn't block any boulders
20:58:13 <ais523> alise: go back to the start
20:58:16 -!- myndzi\ has joined.
20:58:16 <ais523> without moving boulers
20:58:19 <alise> is bag of holding or this better?
20:58:30 <ais523> this is better for survivability
20:58:30 <alise> as far as the prize
20:58:35 <ais523> alise: the middle of the group of three, move it up
20:58:37 <alise> what does bag of holding do?
20:58:44 <coppro> it allows you to carry more stuff
20:58:45 <Sgeo> Things stored in it weigh less
20:58:49 <ais523> amulet of reflection protects you from most wands
20:58:51 <alise> three interpretations of it
20:59:04 <coppro> amulet of reflection is better if you don't have magic resistance I'd say
20:59:17 <ais523> coppro: it's better if you do have MR, too
20:59:18 <Sgeo> Don't store unID'd wands
20:59:20 <alise> ais523: that middle one
20:59:22 <ais523> because then you have reflection and MR
20:59:22 <alise> in the vertical three
20:59:25 <alise> then up all the way?
20:59:26 <ais523> alise: yep, that works
20:59:30 <Sgeo> Unless cancel is IDed
20:59:45 <Sgeo> And don't store BoHs in BoHs
20:59:52 <coppro> ais423: Sure, but there is some overlap there
20:59:53 <alise> do they destroy spacetime?
20:59:53 <ais523> well, this level doesn't have a BoH, so it's moot
20:59:57 <Sgeo> And don't store bag of tricks in BoHs, I _think_
21:00:00 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
21:00:05 <ais523> Sgeo: yep, and don't store wands of cancellation
21:00:21 <ais523> don't trap felix 3 behind it
21:00:24 <coppro> unided wands are fine if you engrave-test them as something other than cancellation
21:00:24 <ais523> wait a couple of turns, it'll move
21:00:32 <ais523> you can push the boudler onto the I
21:00:42 <ais523> it just marks the last known location of an invisible monster
21:01:01 <ais523> the one on the far left moves up 2, right 2
21:01:18 <ais523> but I can't remember why
21:01:20 <alise> <PinoBot> i | imp | Spd: 12 | Small | Genocidable | Lvl: 3 | AC: 2 | MR: 20 | Difficulty: 4 | Align: -7 | Corpse wgt: 20 | Nutr: 10 | Atk: claw physical 1d4 | Flags: regen, stalk, wander, infravision, infravisible, imp, drain resistance
21:01:21 <coppro> I have items that can't go in bags of holding highlighed in blue so I don't accidentally put them in
21:01:28 <ais523> err, no reason not to, it seems
21:01:42 <ais523> you don't want to move in soko while confused
21:01:44 <alise> imagine stun in sokoban
21:01:48 <ais523> OK, leftmost boulder, up two right two
21:02:11 <ais523> next, move the boulder in the centre room out through its left exit
21:02:12 <alise> what is it with cats and picking shit up and then dropping it?
21:02:17 <ais523> alise: they're fetching for you
21:02:22 <ais523> the behaviour was originally implemented for dogs
21:02:28 <ais523> and cats and dogs are functionally identical
21:02:43 <alise> weirdest cat ever, that's all i'll say
21:02:47 <ais523> ugh, not enough boulders left to complete the level
21:02:54 <ais523> due to you breaking three earlier on
21:03:00 <alise> ok, how do i create them?
21:03:00 <ais523> well, all the remaining ones go in
21:03:05 <coppro> you'll need a scroll of earth
21:03:06 <ais523> and then we can create some with the scroll of earth
21:03:09 <ais523> but do that afterwards
21:03:16 <Sgeo> You should have 2
21:03:31 <ais523> move the top of the two boulders over the right up
21:03:35 <ais523> to the centre room entrance
21:03:40 <ais523> then push it through the centre room
21:03:45 <Sgeo> Oh, and it will hurt a bit
21:03:52 <alise> the one closest to the entrance?
21:03:52 <ais523> hmm, either of the two on the top work
21:03:57 <Sgeo> And be unlucky
21:03:58 <ais523> although I was thinking of the one by the entrance
21:04:08 <ais523> push it through the centre room
21:04:23 <ais523> you can do that with all the boulders over the right
21:05:29 <ais523> the one at the far right
21:06:04 <ais523> OK, you need to move the near boulder down
21:06:05 <alise> ais523: push down?
21:06:07 <ais523> then push it from the right
21:06:10 <alise> i suggested that earlier!
21:06:14 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: q).
21:06:30 <ais523> same with the other one by the centre room
21:06:47 <alise> where did that come from?
21:06:50 <ais523> that isn't felix, or it'd be named
21:07:35 <alise> He should last a while.
21:07:48 <Sgeo> With alise as his owner?
21:08:05 <Sgeo> Oh, because he's not Felix
21:08:05 <ais523> the last boulder moves right
21:08:08 <ais523> then is pushed from below
21:08:10 <alise> Sgeo: no, because he's not fluffy
21:08:20 <ais523> although, don't let your cats get trapped behind it
21:08:45 <Sgeo> Wha? How can you tell?
21:09:00 <ais523> there's a monster drinking potions, and a rock mole eating all the gold
21:09:03 <alise> ais523: how many pets can i expect to get in the zoo to help me?
21:09:13 <ais523> alise: the difficulty is aiming at them
21:09:14 <alise> I have 4 rations, a clove of garlic, and a fortune cookie.
21:09:23 <ais523> because of all the other monsters in the way
21:09:31 <alise> earth scroll thing
21:09:33 <ais523> OK, time to use a scroll of earth
21:09:33 -!- myndzi\ has changed nick to myndzi.
21:09:36 <ais523> you need to move to an open space
21:09:43 <Sgeo> Actually, couldn't he do it there?
21:09:45 <Deewiant> Why not just use it before if you had to use it anyway
21:09:49 <ais523> Sgeo: he'd be trapped on the way back
21:09:50 <alise> Deewiant: ais523 said not to :P
21:09:55 <Sgeo> No he wouldn't I think
21:09:59 <ais523> alise: that's the best square to use the scroll from
21:10:02 <Sgeo> If it's 1 surrounding
21:10:05 <alise> ais523: is it? i picked well
21:10:05 <ais523> but make sure your cats are well clear, you don't want to kill them
21:10:16 <alise> is that clear enough?
21:10:18 <ais523> that's a safe distance
21:10:21 <ais523> read a scroll of earth
21:10:32 <Sgeo> Told you it would hurt
21:10:42 <alise> before fighting these guys
21:10:44 <ais523> let your pets get near too
21:11:01 <ais523> once that hole is filled, all hell breaks loose, pretty much
21:11:09 <pikhq> #esoteric: all Nethack, all the time.
21:11:10 <ais523> especially if one of the monsters has figured out how to open the door
21:11:11 <alise> i think i killed felix
21:11:17 <alise> pikhq: telnet termcast.org
21:11:39 <ais523> must be, it's fighting something
21:11:50 <Sgeo> Are you searching
21:11:57 <pikhq> alise: Wow, live Nethack.
21:12:09 <alise> pikhq: nethack.alt.org has that too though :P
21:12:14 <ais523> the trick here's to use your pets to avoid being cornered
21:12:20 * pikhq puts it on his phone
21:12:41 <ais523> let the cat kill the ray
21:12:53 <alise> I'm just going to let them trickle in
21:12:55 <alise> rather than fighting them in one spot
21:13:01 <pikhq> God *damn* the terminal emulator sucks.
21:13:01 <ais523> it's a typical strategy
21:13:06 <pikhq> It's, like, not VT100.
21:13:22 <alise> not very fluffy sucks at hitting things
21:13:28 <alise> you're in a corridor! it's right next to you!
21:13:31 <alise> how can you miss it?!
21:13:40 <Sgeo> Those spaces are large enough for dragons
21:13:44 <Sgeo> And small enough for ants
21:13:52 <alise> everything is the same size in nethack!
21:13:53 <alise> even the giant things!
21:14:08 <alise> ais523: can i just kill the bloody rock mole
21:14:12 <alise> ais523: actually, can i go find fluffy?
21:14:25 <ais523> although I don't know how long fluffy will survive on its own
21:15:18 <Sgeo> Roughly how unlucky is alise?
21:15:26 <alise> ais523: HOW DO I GET FELIX TO GO AHEAD OF ME
21:15:41 <pikhq> Sgeo: Insufficiently.
21:15:45 <pikhq> He should eat his cat.
21:15:55 <alise> pikhq: I killed a pet pony by rolling it into a pit once
21:16:00 <ais523> so felix can't get back behind you
21:16:20 <ais523> ok, that door must be open
21:16:24 <ais523> things are walking through it
21:16:26 <ais523> (it just isn't in LOS yet)
21:16:42 <alise> this is the easiest boss ever
21:16:50 <ais523> alise: with pets, it is pretty easy
21:16:57 <alise> felix even picked up gold for me
21:16:57 <ais523> most people don't bother dragging pets through Sokoban, though
21:17:04 <alise> ais523: I just let mine wonder
21:17:06 <alise> and do all the fighting
21:17:16 <alise> can't imagine doing this on my own
21:17:19 <ais523> I suppose it's in the nature of cats to bite rats
21:17:21 <alise> ais523: can i go blind?
21:17:22 <alise> i wanna see the action
21:17:25 <ais523> also, I've done it on my own, but it wasn't awake at the time
21:17:42 <ais523> only risk is that a mindless creature sneaks up behind you; if that happens, just take the blindfold back off
21:17:43 <alise> You hear a wererat reading a scroll labeled HACKEM MUCHE.
21:17:46 <Sgeo> Is there a chance of c?
21:17:50 <alise> What the what what
21:17:53 <ais523> hmm, I wonder what that did
21:18:01 <ais523> see if you know what the label means
21:18:08 <ais523> I'm guessing create monster, though
21:18:16 <ais523> it's the only scroll monsters regularly read
21:18:20 <alise> MWAHAHAHA GO INTO THE ARENA PITIFUL KITTENS
21:18:25 <alise> ais523: it was a were-, though
21:18:32 <alise> so perhaps a @ at the time
21:18:35 <ais523> yep, thus intelligent enough to read scrolls in @ form
21:18:50 <alise> i wanna tame the kittieeeees
21:18:51 <Sgeo> ais523, is there a chance of c here?
21:19:01 <ais523> try not to move while blind
21:19:02 <Sgeo> Then alise shouldn't be blind right now
21:19:07 <ais523> in case you step onto a c corpse and die instantly
21:19:08 <Sgeo> Or, yeah, don't move
21:19:13 <ais523> you cna tame that kitten
21:19:23 <alise> will a fortune cookie work?
21:19:28 <ais523> although it'll eat the fortune
21:19:49 <alise> yes, i am aware that is a kitten
21:20:05 <ais523> this zoo's almost clear by now
21:20:06 <alise> I know, I hope to drain the d too.
21:20:12 <ais523> take the blindfold off; you can see in there /anyway/
21:20:16 <alise> Fuck you, water nymph!
21:20:22 <ais523> if she reads that thing...
21:20:28 <ais523> yes, attack and hope to kill her first
21:20:36 <ais523> phew, only had one hit left in her
21:20:37 <coppro> what scroll did she steal?
21:20:57 <ais523> would have probably killed all the pets simultaneously, also trapped alise from going any further
21:21:07 <alise> ais523: are fog clouds dangerous?
21:21:12 <ais523> fog clouds are pretty harmless to players, but potentially dangerous to pets
21:21:12 <Flonk> ô_o what game are you talking about
21:21:14 <alise> if not, I want to go in and try and tame the dog
21:21:15 <ais523> kill it yourself if you can
21:21:19 <alise> Flonk: telnet termcast.org if you want to see
21:21:30 <alise> ais523: so it's ok to go in now, right?
21:21:35 <alise> the leprechaun might rob me but i don't care
21:21:38 <ais523> the zoo's almost empty
21:21:41 <alise> Flonk: i'm alise obvs
21:22:00 <ais523> btw, you'll need to make multiple trips just to get more than two pets down the stairs
21:22:04 <Sgeo> If I play NetHack later, will people here help me out?
21:22:09 <alise> ais523: is garlic valuable?
21:22:14 <alise> but i'm little help :P
21:22:18 <ais523> alise: it scares vampires, so no
21:22:31 <ais523> but it doesn't tame dogs, just make them peaceful
21:22:35 <alise> Eh, I can spare a food ration.
21:22:56 <Sgeo> It's a Kitty! Wait, no it's not! You liar!
21:23:04 <alise> Sgeo: And Shaggy Dog isn't shaggy, either!
21:23:12 <Sgeo> You're part of the Micky Mouse conspiracy! </psox-reference>
21:23:14 <alise> ais523: is there a safe way to kill that leprechaun?
21:23:19 <coppro> the leprechaon is harmless
21:23:26 <alise> coppro: BUT MONEYS
21:23:26 <ais523> the leprechaun can't teleport in Sokoban
21:23:27 <Sgeo> Leprechaun can't teleport here
21:23:28 <ais523> so you get a free kill
21:23:36 <ais523> it steals, you just steal back
21:23:37 <Sgeo> Eating it gives you teleportitis
21:23:40 <coppro> if it steals moneys, you'll get them back when you kill it
21:23:46 <Sgeo> Which you may or may not want
21:23:49 <Sgeo> It will let you escape the vault
21:23:55 <Sgeo> NExt time you're there
21:24:06 <Sgeo> Wait, did he eat it?
21:24:23 <ais523> alise: check those rooms over the left
21:24:26 <alise> i should have three cats
21:24:27 <ais523> one should have an amulet
21:24:31 <ais523> alise: one's probably just out of view
21:24:45 <ais523> wait, what happened to the amulet?
21:24:51 <ais523> a monster must have spawned on it
21:24:57 <alise> you are joking, right?
21:24:58 <ais523> no, the amulet's generated on an elbereth
21:25:01 <ais523> to stop things picking it up
21:25:06 <alise> i just did sokoban
21:25:07 <ais523> but if a monster spawns on the square, anything can happen
21:25:13 <coppro> did you find an amulet anywhere else?
21:25:14 <ais523> well, the amulet's probably still around here somewhere
21:25:17 <ais523> unless something ate it
21:25:37 <coppro> the door wasn't open, though
21:25:57 <alise> ais523: what do amulets look like?
21:26:12 <ais523> you might have picked it up already
21:26:21 <ais523> amulets sort to the top of the list
21:26:23 <alise> ais523: maybe one of my pets have it
21:26:34 <ais523> oh, right, pets don't respect Elbereth
21:26:43 <ais523> nah, just wait for them to drop it
21:26:48 <ais523> cats and dogs don't hang on to amulets
21:26:50 <alise> "Your pets have something ... KILL THEM!"
21:26:57 <coppro> yeah, just see if they drop it
21:27:06 <alise> maybe the dog has it
21:27:11 <coppro> k, NVFAA doesn't have it
21:27:45 <alise> Did I just go through Sokoban for nothing?
21:27:50 <coppro> you got lots of xp and food
21:27:59 <coppro> Mathnerd314: amulet of reflection
21:28:00 <alise> Mathnerd314: reflection or something
21:28:14 <ais523> I've never seen that happen before
21:28:30 <ais523> besides, you'll be better at sokoban in future
21:28:34 <alise> ais523: is there a way to shake my pets to make them drop stuff? :P
21:28:42 <coppro> alise: they can only hold one item
21:28:48 <coppro> every put has already picked something up
21:28:51 <ais523> they'll drop it in time nayway
21:29:00 <alise> so now i have to go all the way back up?
21:29:04 <Sgeo> Maybe it's on those [?
21:29:20 <ais523> alise: that's the end of Sokoban, anyway
21:29:24 <ais523> next stop, generally the Mines
21:29:37 <ais523> although they're safer with the amulet, which I still haven't figured out where it went
21:29:41 <alise> ais523: how many pets do you think I'll have when i come out of sokoban?
21:29:50 <ais523> depends on how patient you are
21:30:14 <alise> no, depends on how filled with love for my pets i am
21:30:42 <ais523> because I want to do something else now
21:30:55 <alise> coppro: you're on stop-me-doing-something-retarded duty >.>
21:31:49 <alise> anyone good at herding cats?!
21:32:24 <alise> just move a bit then blow it?
21:32:26 <alise> how long does it last?
21:32:30 <Sgeo> If it's magic, it's awesome
21:32:40 <alise> can i use it from an arbitrary distance?
21:32:50 <Sgeo> I know nothing about regular
21:33:10 <alise> i killed a kobold by running
21:33:12 <Sgeo> Might want to engrave-test the gem
21:33:12 <alise> pikhq: are you watching?
21:33:16 <alise> Sgeo: how do you do that?
21:33:27 <Sgeo> If it writes in the dust, you learn nothing
21:33:32 <Sgeo> If it doesn't, it's valuable
21:33:40 <Sgeo> Green is valuable
21:33:55 <Sgeo> #name call that gem
21:33:58 <alise> Sgeo: green just engraved.
21:34:08 <Sgeo> That means it's not worthless glasss
21:34:19 <Sgeo> valuable green
21:34:39 <Sgeo> You know nothing about black now
21:34:43 <Sgeo> It could be valuable, or not
21:34:56 <Sgeo> Same with violet
21:35:59 <Sgeo> I still think you should be looking for "
21:36:10 <alise> after i get the kitty
21:36:35 <Sgeo> You sure those [ don't hide it?
21:36:55 <alise> If I check now, my pets could become untamed...
21:37:04 <alise> How long does it take?
21:39:34 <Sgeo> http://nethack.wikia.com/wiki/DeathOnAStick
21:40:40 <alise> Mathnerd314: if i go onto the same level then back that buys me another 75 turns, right?
21:41:06 <Mathnerd314> I just took the first number from http://nethack.wikia.com/wiki/Tameness
21:41:07 <Sgeo> BTW, there's a _ command
21:41:21 <Sgeo> Dammit think before you move
21:41:32 <Sgeo> It lets you move quickly (in terms of RL)
21:42:16 <alise> Sgeo: It wasn't there.
21:42:40 <Sgeo> Yes, that's your fault
21:42:52 <Sgeo> You should have seen the light, you should have blindfolded yourself
21:43:17 <alise> I didn't realise what it was >_>
21:43:32 <alise> Finally, the gnomish wizard dies!
21:44:23 * Sgeo looks something up quickly
21:44:29 <alise> Sgeo: Where did the wererat go?
21:46:28 <Sgeo> I have no idea what happens if you see Medusa via telepathy
21:46:35 <Sgeo> I _think_ it's nonfatal
21:46:40 <Sgeo> I'd still rather you have the "reflect
21:47:06 <alise> Sgeo: Unfortunately it has been eaten.
21:48:14 <Sgeo> alise, you have the mirror, right?
21:48:47 <Sgeo> Ok, and you have the good blindfold
21:48:51 <Sgeo> Should be no problem
21:49:52 <alise> I'm pretty sure Felix 3 doesn't love me any more.
21:50:01 <Sgeo> Is the whistle magic?
21:50:07 <alise> Not as far as I can tell.
21:50:37 <Sgeo> What's the message?
21:50:49 <alise> Sgeo: "You produce a high-pitched whistling noise." or words to that effect
21:51:09 <Sgeo> that's not a message for any whistle
21:51:20 <alise> ONE OF THE MONSTERS MUST AHVE ESCAPED
21:51:26 <alise> Sgeo: what are the messages?
21:51:31 <coppro> it could be a random other amulet
21:51:41 <Sgeo> high whistling for tin
21:51:53 <Sgeo> high-pitched humming for cursed magic
21:52:07 <alise> coppro: pyramidal?
21:52:24 <ais523> heh, you found the amulet?
21:52:37 <Sgeo> We don't know if it's reflection or not
21:52:48 <coppro> alise: see if a pet will move on it
21:53:24 <Sgeo> alise, do a non-cursed check
21:53:28 <Sgeo> If it's not cursed, wear it
21:53:51 <alise> Sgeo: how do i do that check all the way out here?
21:53:58 <alise> ais523: a wererat dropped it; some werecreature was in that fierce battle
21:54:06 <alise> and, i suppose, could theoretically have escaped without me noticing
21:54:12 <Sgeo> Drop it, if a pet stands on it, it's not cursed
21:54:16 <ais523> and you can cursecheck by dropping it and letting a pet stand on it
21:54:25 <alise> Not Very Fluffy At All, Really moves only reluctantly.
21:54:30 <Sgeo> Where did it move to?
21:54:36 <Sgeo> ais523, it doesn't seem to be on the "
21:54:36 <ais523> whatever it stepped on, that is
21:54:42 <ais523> well, see if it steps on the "
21:54:45 <ais523> without moving reluctantly
21:54:54 <alise> none of them have stepped on it yet
21:55:06 <alise> uh oh, here comes trouble
21:55:20 <alise> ais523: do ponies like pancakes
21:55:46 <ais523> alise: I think they make them peaceful
21:56:02 <alise> i only have one food ration left!
21:56:09 <ais523> (food rations don't tame ponies anyway)
21:56:28 * alise looks up names of My Little Ponys
21:56:54 <Sgeo> What else in the vicinity could have been cursed?
21:57:28 <alise> meh, i'll just call it Sparkle
21:57:40 <alise> ais523: pony just stepped on the amulet
21:57:50 <Sgeo> You didn't pick it up just now?
21:58:05 <alise> ais523: could you tune in to termcast?
21:58:09 <alise> i'm not sure whether they're avoiding it just by chance
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21:59:14 <Sgeo> But at this point, it's looking dismal
21:59:25 <Sgeo> BTW, don't wear cursed amulets
21:59:30 <alise> so this /isn't/ the sokoban amulet?
21:59:32 <alise> also, what does that do?
21:59:50 <coppro> yeah, I'd say that's cursed
21:59:51 <Sgeo> Cursed amulets? Well, one amulet can kill you in 6 turns
22:00:00 -!- tombom__ has joined.
22:00:01 <coppro> and it's usually generated cursed
22:00:07 <alise> how do you fix it?
22:00:12 <Sgeo> alise, by removing it
22:00:25 <Sgeo> Holy Water is easiest
22:00:30 <coppro> or a scroll of uncursing
22:00:32 <alise> i'll hang on to it
22:00:35 <alise> should i name it cursed for now?
22:01:06 <alise> now to get all my pets
22:01:12 <alise> coppro: how do I get to minetown, btw?
22:01:27 <Sgeo> Go up, and find the other > somewhere up there
22:01:37 <Sgeo> Where the sky is blue, where baby burp and flowers bloom
22:01:42 <alise> coppro: did I miss a pet?
22:02:02 <coppro> I haven't been keeping it open
22:02:03 <alise> coppro: felix 3 never follows me but the others do
22:02:06 <alise> is it because he's older or something?
22:02:10 <alise> do i need to feed him
22:02:19 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.8/20100722155716]).
22:02:23 -!- tombom_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
22:02:28 <alise> does feeding help?
22:03:18 <alise> all five pets on one screen
22:03:50 <alise> http://i.imgur.com/Jw8jG.png
22:04:00 -!- olsner has joined.
22:04:19 <alise> coppro: so now what, just head down to the >?
22:04:33 <coppro> or go back to the mines
22:04:51 <coppro> the entrance is on dlvl 2 or 3 iirc
22:04:57 <alise> is that the best idea?
22:05:32 <coppro> you're probably safe for a few more levels on the main branch; I wouldn't recommend going below about 10 before the mines, but that's me
22:05:48 <alise> i'll just head to the mines then
22:06:08 <coppro> the mines can be dangerous though because they are open and have lots of monsters, so be careful
22:06:16 <alise> coppro: yes, but i have five pets
22:06:35 <coppro> gnome with a wand of death
22:06:35 <Sgeo> /Death would not be a concern if that amulet were there!
22:06:55 <alise> Sgeo: i have the amulet
22:07:11 <Sgeo> coppro, can the "ofReflection in Soko be generated cursed?
22:07:13 <alise> coppro: will the mirror work?
22:07:23 <alise> Sgeo: coppro said it's usually cursed
22:07:32 <alise> hey, deathonastick is playing?
22:07:34 <coppro> no, I meant the "oStrangulation
22:07:50 <coppro> IIRC, bad jewelry is 90% cursed, and good is 10% cursed
22:08:05 <alise> is this amlet likely to be the reflection in any way?
22:08:15 <alise> deathonastick doesn't use colour
22:08:19 <alise> the famous deathonastick!
22:08:21 <Sgeo> alise, well, once it's uncursed, you'll find out
22:08:36 <alise> with completely stock settings
22:09:13 <alise> <zgedneil> alise: we suspect he may be slightly old-fashioned
22:09:13 <alise> <zgedneil> it's just a hunch
22:09:51 <alise> <scorchgeek> he doesn't believe in travel, shift-walk, or selecting a symbol on farlook it seems
22:10:40 <alise> how much shit is on these squares?!
22:10:43 <alise> anyway back to my game
22:10:47 <alise> coppro: so, ascend, yeah?
22:11:04 <alise> my pets are killing machines
22:11:27 <alise> i'm rapidly losing health
22:11:37 <Sgeo> What was that wand?
22:11:44 <coppro> orge was zapping striking
22:11:53 <alise> <zgedneil> 231 potions of holy water
22:11:54 <alise> <zgedneil> that's... WTF
22:12:00 <alise> should i zap striking in return, or what?
22:12:34 <coppro> yeah, give it one shot I'd say
22:12:42 <alise> coppro: you watching deathonastick?
22:12:46 <alise> he's bloody insane!
22:12:53 <alise> but you should take a look anyway :|
22:13:18 <alise> coppro: keep zapping him with it?
22:13:38 <alise> coppro: he's playing without graphics, without colour
22:13:44 <alise> he has 231 holy waters
22:13:46 <alise> he isn't using travel
22:14:01 <alise> and he's apparently been farlooking every possible ghost
22:14:04 <alise> rather than changing the symbol
22:14:07 <alise> coppro: dlvl 13, he has the amulet
22:14:10 <alise> i'm not sure where that is
22:14:15 <alise> but he's close to ascending, sources say
22:14:24 <alise> coppro: also, these squares have two pages of items each on them
22:14:30 <alise> also he is wearing tons of shit
22:14:31 <coppro> he just dug the whole level out
22:14:53 <alise> <zgedneil> this is such a weird game though, it's just a different scale to anything except, I don't know, extinctionist?
22:15:01 <Sgeo> Let's hope he doesn't make the same mistake twice
22:15:06 <alise> <zgedneil> I wonder if he's going to enter the planes unburdened
22:15:06 <alise> <zgedneil> I suspect... possibly not
22:15:22 <alise> i wonder what he's trying to do
22:15:30 <Sgeo> Same thing he tried last time?
22:15:33 <alise> <ziedrich> he's blesssing everything in his inventory lol
22:15:41 <alise> Sgeo: no, he doesn't have any gems or anything
22:15:45 <alise> <zgedneil> alise: ascend with a stupid number of gems, I believe
22:15:59 <alise> <scorchgeek> "Your wand of death glows with a light blue aura."
22:16:21 <coppro> http://nethack.wikia.com/wiki/DeathOnAStick
22:16:58 <Sgeo> Don't zap /death at Death
22:17:31 <alise> i - a +0 orcish helm
22:17:31 <alise> q - an orcish cloak
22:17:32 <Sgeo> No, Death, the monster
22:17:34 <alise> I don't need that helm, do I?
22:17:40 <alise> Sgeo: is death in my game right now?
22:18:02 <Sgeo> If you get close to ascending
22:18:11 <fizzie> Also, don't try to eat Death.
22:18:26 <alise> coppro: god dammit, i need leashes for all these pets!
22:18:27 * Sgeo never even crossed Medusa
22:18:28 <alise> how do you get leashes?
22:18:37 <alise> <Iku_> If it's not blessed, it's not good enough for DoaS.
22:18:52 <fizzie> What you need is a magic whistle; that's a good pet-management tool.
22:19:10 <Sgeo> He has a whistle of unknown, but possible tin, type
22:19:23 <alise> <ziedrich> did he dig out every single level?
22:19:23 <alise> <scorchgeek> ziedrich: yeah
22:19:39 <alise> is there an easy way to get a magic one? :P
22:19:48 <alise> <Iku_> He's not insane, just a little compulsive, and also not getting with the times. (Or, blind an playing on a braille terminal while insane).
22:19:48 <alise> <scorchgeek> Iku_: huh, there's a theory I've never heard before
22:19:48 <alise> <scorchgeek> blind playing nethack.
22:20:15 <alise> <irina> I used to know someone who played on a braille terminal
22:20:16 <alise> <irina> ascended, too
22:21:18 <coppro> you know, you could just tell us to go into #nethack
22:21:31 <alise> <irina> note to self: self, the scroll you called enchant weapon is actually remove curse.
22:21:35 <alise> coppro: well, that's true.
22:21:50 <alise> I filter out the highest-quality #nethack material
22:22:17 <alise> something that tells me how many pets i have on a level
22:22:19 <alise> to see if i missed one
22:23:10 <alise> <ButterMuffin> now THAT'S crazy prepared.
22:23:10 <alise> <ButterMuffin> keeping cockatrice corpses in an icebox next to the 2 level downstairs.
22:23:41 <alise> coppro: dlvl 2 or 3 right?
22:23:47 <coppro> it'll be a second downstair
22:24:02 <alise> You are laden with moisture and can barely breathe!
22:24:17 -!- wareya_ has joined.
22:24:18 <alise> Sgeo: I'M INSIDE IT
22:24:19 -!- wareya_ has changed nick to wareya.
22:24:28 <Sgeo> Doesn't mean you can't kill it
22:24:33 <alise> just hit the walls?
22:24:39 <Sgeo> Yes, I _think_
22:24:45 <alise> lol deathonastick has $0
22:25:00 <Sgeo> alise, check your moisture-vulnerable stuff
22:25:10 <alise> The water nymph pretends to be friendly to Shaggy Dog.--More--
22:26:07 <alise> i'm a bit low on food...
22:26:19 <alise> coppro: how far do you think i'll get?
22:26:23 <alise> wareya: i mean in nethack.
22:26:44 <wareya> That was a while ago, though
22:28:01 <alise> coppro: 2/3 or 3/4 for mines?
22:28:01 -!- Gregor-P has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:28:11 <coppro> it'll be a second downstair
22:28:16 -!- Gregor-P has joined.
22:29:20 <Sgeo> When should alise dip for Excalibur?
22:29:46 <alise> <Iku_> As interesting as DoaS might be, I think I might return to my game in search of a wand of cancellation.
22:30:52 <alise> i /think/ deathonastick is about to ascend.
22:30:55 <alise> Sgeo: yeah, when :P
22:31:19 <alise> <Rodney> rickRoll (Wiz Hum Mal Neu), 20 points, killed by a succubus, while helpless
22:31:19 <alise> <kerio> hehe, he's no stranger to love
22:32:58 <coppro> yes Sgeo, those are pets
22:34:07 <olsner> nethack seems incredibly boring
22:36:45 -!- oerjan has joined.
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22:39:29 <wareya> I may have posted this a long time ago, but fuck it: http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Redstone_circuits
22:39:45 <wareya> It's essentially just NOT and OR gates anyway
22:58:20 <alise> I have a friend who knows the creator of Minecraft. Am I special?
22:58:48 <oerjan> well, 2 degrees of separation, how many _should_ that be?
22:58:58 <alise> olsner: i thought nethack was boring too
22:59:01 <alise> but it perks up after a few levels
22:59:07 <oerjan> alise: no, you have 2 there
22:59:17 <alise> oerjan: what did your question mean, then?
22:59:33 <oerjan> i mean how many people should be at 2 degrees of separation
23:00:06 <alise> oerjan: the space of people squares every extra degree of separation, maybe
23:00:18 <alise> taking world population as 6.7 billion
23:00:25 <oerjan> although there's that scale-something thing, he may be a "hub", giving more people
23:00:30 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:00:42 -!- augur has joined.
23:00:48 <alise> oerjan: then 2 degrees of separation = 4 people
23:01:15 <coppro> alise: I'm about to win BN
23:01:20 <oerjan> alise: er surely you know more than 2 people, and so does your friend :D
23:01:26 -!- Gregor-P has quit (Quit: Bye).
23:01:29 <alise> oerjan: well if six people is the whole world!
23:01:34 <coppro> I just need lilomar to come back and award me the points
23:01:43 <oerjan> there's that 150 number that is sometimes mentioned
23:01:43 -!- Gregor-P has joined.
23:01:46 <alise> oerjan: got a better growth formula?
23:01:53 <alise> 100 is meant to be the maximum you /can/ know, or something
23:02:24 <oerjan> alise: anyway my scale-free thing applies iirc, some people are _hubs_ and are better connected, so your distance to them should be less
23:02:53 <alise> <Rodney> deathonastick[3]: If you ever see him in real life, please give him a hug and tell him that everything is going to be all right.
23:03:03 <coppro> alise: we're all in #nethack
23:03:15 <alise> but you're getting the undigested version
23:03:18 <alise> full of ... of THINGS
23:06:09 <alise> so if anyone is totally bored of watching daos
23:06:59 <alise> it's fucking felix 3 again
23:07:04 <alise> how do you make a cat like you?!
23:07:19 <alise> i tried feeding it
23:11:32 <alise> coppro: are you watching this
23:11:38 <alise> is actively moving away from me
23:11:57 <alise> coppro: is there any way to make a cat like me :|
23:14:44 <alise> too busy with DoaS i bet :'<<<
23:15:29 <coppro> alise: making images for my dynasty
23:15:55 <coppro> know a good editor for pixel-level image editing?
23:16:23 <alise> coppro: pixen for os x :P
23:17:04 <alise> it's designed for it
23:17:16 <alise> it's like ms paint on crack, steroids, layers and a few other drugs of questionable morality
23:17:29 <alise> so no luck on non-os x systems
23:18:27 <alise> it isn't the nicest toolkit to program in
23:24:59 <alise> coppro: should i just abandon felix 3, if he hates me so much?
23:25:19 <alise> coppro: like 70% of my herding time is devoted to chasing after him after all the others come
23:25:28 <alise> does abandoning a pet have any negative effects?
23:25:47 <coppro> it might get feral and attack you later
23:26:09 <alise> coppro: yeah, but ... i can defeat a cat :P
23:26:14 <alise> so, no actual downsides then
23:26:33 <alise> ok, final question then: is there any way to make it like me?
23:27:32 <nooga> tbh pixen looks cool
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23:28:35 <alise> coppro: i'm on dlvl 3, so i should look for another downstairs?
23:28:40 <alise> wait, there is one
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23:28:46 <coppro> alise: I normally explore every level
23:28:49 <coppro> have you not been doing that?
23:30:09 <alise> and i'm still hungry
23:31:07 * alise asks nethack for pet advice
23:31:40 <oerjan> i hate a pancake, i hate the daffodils
23:31:54 <alise> <Rodney> DeathOnAStick entered the Planes, on turn 1481268
23:33:13 <alise> <scummos> he has 6000 hitpoints and AC -56
23:34:57 <nooga> nethanck is unplayable
23:35:04 <nooga> unlike the angband
23:35:54 <alise> Sgeo: for the record
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23:36:07 <alise> ABANDONED FELIX 3: RADIOTRON on Dlvl 3.
23:37:11 <alise> coppro: can i get excalibur now?
23:39:02 <alise> "a" on termcast.org
23:40:28 <alise> Sgeo: so do i just drop the sword in?
23:40:45 <alise> Your long sword rusts somewhat.
23:41:12 <Sgeo> Are you at least level 5?
23:41:25 <alise> Sgeo: just have to keep dipping
23:43:04 <alise> You faint from lack of food. You regain consciousness.
23:47:18 <coppro> there should be lots of food in the early levels of the mines
23:47:33 <coppro> because of all the gnomes
23:53:19 <Sgeo> alise, search that eastern room
23:53:21 <alise> ape corpses okay to eat?
23:53:27 <alise> Sgeo: no, i don't want to look in that room
23:53:33 <Sgeo> alise, why NOT?
23:53:38 <alise> because i have no food
23:53:40 <alise> and i'm going to the mines
23:53:44 <alise> where there is food
23:53:54 <alise> i already have telepathy
23:54:01 <Sgeo> But it may leave a corpse
23:54:39 <alise> Sgeo: you do realise i'm blind
23:54:48 <Sgeo> and not anymore
23:55:02 <Sgeo> blindfold nbefore e attack
23:56:24 <Sgeo> Hold onto lizard corpse
23:56:38 <alise> I'm trying to /avoid/ starving this time.
23:56:40 <Sgeo> They don't spoil, and they can save you in the event of cockatrice hiss
23:57:00 <alise> anyway, mines time
23:57:17 <Sgeo> " It is usually better to eat the corpse since opening a tin may take many turns, and lizard corpses do not rot and never become old to cause sickness. Because of this, it is wise to keep at least one lizard corpse in your inventory."
23:57:19 <alise> now i just have to decide on a pet to put it on
23:57:38 <Sgeo> And it functions as emergency food!
23:57:44 <alise> Sgeo: okay dammit i'll get one later
23:57:48 <alise> right now, can you help me drop stuff?
23:57:54 <alise> how heavy is the cloak?
23:58:01 <Sgeo> I have no idea
23:58:21 <alise> rusty knife can go
23:59:25 <Sgeo> I have no idea
00:00:07 <alise> ok, well, any suggestions for the mines?
00:00:19 <Sgeo> Don't let the fountain in Minetown dry up
00:00:30 <Sgeo> And you may or may not want to buy candles at the lighting shop
00:00:36 <alise> Also, mines, not minetown.
00:00:39 <Sgeo> You'll need 7 candles eventually
00:02:21 <alise> Sgeo: I'm missing a cat.
00:02:44 <alise> do gecko corpses spoil?
00:02:56 <Sgeo> Don't know, but they don't count as lizard corpses
00:04:01 <Sgeo> And not in some weird NSFW sense
00:04:29 <Sgeo> YOu'd hitchhike without a towel?
00:04:36 <alise> no, but i'm not hitchhiking
00:04:44 <Sgeo> And you're reference-failing
00:04:56 <alise> i know what you are referencing
00:05:09 <Sgeo> There is a reason I'm referencing it
00:05:31 <Sgeo> Although one of the uses is covered by the blindfold
00:05:40 <Sgeo> You can also clean your hands (I think) or your face
00:06:11 <Sgeo> Don't eat it if you didn't see it die
00:06:34 <alise> is eating gnome corpses cannibalism?
00:06:39 <Sgeo> I have no idea
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00:10:19 <alise> Sgeo: are these gems worth anything at all
00:10:28 <alise> should i test them?
00:10:41 <Sgeo> Yes, but even then, I doubt you need them that much
00:10:49 <Sgeo> Just keep the known valuables
00:11:32 <Sgeo> Make sure valuable green cal also engrave
00:11:42 <Sgeo> In case having written in the dust already causes weirdness
00:12:18 <Sgeo> What if, if there's writing in the dust, all gems will then write in the dust, making some of the tests you just did worthlesS?
00:13:09 <alise> peaceful white unicorn!
00:13:29 <Sgeo> That's what gems are for
00:14:05 <Sgeo> http://nethack.wikia.com/wiki/Unicorn#Unicorns_and_gems
00:14:18 <alise> Sting is among the weakest of artifacts. If you touch it, even if you are of the wrong alignment, it will not blast you unless you are an orc. For all purposes, Sting is only a normal elven dagger, except that it happens to do more damage to orcs and that it cuts through all webs.
00:15:37 <alise> Sgeo: does that stuff actually matter at all?
00:15:45 <Sgeo> I'd say Luck matters a lot
00:15:50 <Sgeo> There may also be other uses for gems
00:15:57 <alise> i'm doing well with terrible luck
00:16:02 <alise> anyway i have valuable gems, so there we go
00:16:05 <alise> should i throw them at a unicorn?
00:18:56 <alise> how do i show my points in the status bar?
00:19:06 <Sgeo> An option perhaps?
00:21:36 <alise> Sgeo: is it wise to kill one of those gnomes to eat their corpse, do you think?
00:22:14 <Sgeo> Don't you have a food ration?
00:22:23 <alise> i'm waiting until i'm weak, no?
00:22:26 <alise> if i can get this gnome corpse
00:22:32 <alise> then i can save the ration
00:23:21 <Sgeo> Wow, that was unfilling
00:23:24 <alise> but it's bought me some time
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00:27:51 <alise> Sgeo: how am i doing XD
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00:28:12 <alise> Sgeo: no but seriously now.
00:28:25 <alise> i avoided exploring that area due to the low light :P
00:28:30 <Sgeo> You still have no reflection
00:28:40 <Sgeo> Erm, no automatic reflection
00:28:54 <alise> b + a potion of full healing
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00:29:53 <Sgeo> Is that an altar or a fluke?
00:30:01 <Sgeo> There should be guaranteed altar in Minetown
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00:31:21 <Sgeo> DOAS is on the Plane of Water
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00:32:03 <Sgeo> I was about to recommend against that
00:32:19 <alise> how long until daos ascends?
00:32:41 <Sgeo> Wait, what just happened?
00:32:46 <Sgeo> What did you just do?
00:32:49 <alise> Sgeo: I tried to swap my cloak.
00:33:08 <alise> studded leather armor any good?
00:33:09 <Sgeo> I thought you put on the amulet and it was something you really wanted to take off
00:33:38 <alise> There is a 82 in 964, or ~8.5%, chance that a randomly spawned armor object will be studded leather armor.
00:33:47 <alise> that sounds like good armor
00:34:04 <alise> i can drop the small shield, can't i?
00:34:21 <Sgeo> Have I ever mentioned that I never ascended?
00:34:56 <alise> i'm nowhere near ascending
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00:42:40 <alise> sparkle is confused from hunger
00:42:46 <alise> will it eat eggs? :P
00:43:21 <Sgeo> I wouldn't throw the egg
00:43:58 <Sgeo> I'm watching DOAS now
00:46:46 <alise> I just found out about travel
00:46:51 <alise> why didn't you tell me about this before :P
00:48:07 <alise> Sgeo: dlvl 7, woot
00:48:19 <alise> wish ais was here to tell me how badly i'm doing :D
00:50:26 <alise> Sgeo: My pet strategy: "Okay, let's split up; I'll meet you later."
00:50:42 <Sgeo> And they'll KILL YOU IN REVENGE FOR THE DEAD FELIXES
00:51:00 <alise> looks like mines to me
00:51:13 <alise> that does not look like a tree
00:51:31 <Sgeo> There is an altar on minetown
00:51:44 <Sgeo> If it's coaligned, you'll be able to make holy water
00:51:46 <Sgeo> If you get some water
00:52:04 <alise> how do i uncurse my shit?
00:52:06 <alise> or is that at an altar
00:52:27 <Sgeo> Fountain might have a chance, but at altar you can make holy water
00:52:33 <Sgeo> And check BUC of that amulet
00:52:50 <Sgeo> Well, holy water only if altar is coaligned
00:53:36 <alise> anything i can do with the fountain?
00:54:18 <Sgeo> Sorry, not paying attention >.>
00:54:53 <Sgeo> alise, did you anger the watch captain?
00:55:04 <alise> my pet started killing a watch person
00:55:31 <alise> RIP one of my pets
00:55:52 <alise> Sgeo: praying time soon
00:56:10 <alise> Sgeo: will zapping that wand i have help?
01:00:49 <alise> Sgeo: how do you engrave id again?
01:01:01 <Sgeo> Write some junk in the dust
01:01:06 <Sgeo> (with your finger)
01:01:10 <Sgeo> Then write using the wand
01:01:15 <Sgeo> Be aware that you may go blind
01:01:57 <alise> The bugs on the floor speed up!
01:01:58 <Sgeo> Wand of Seed Monster
01:03:06 <Sgeo> That's all of the wands?
01:03:21 <alise> Can I ID those potions somehow?
01:03:24 <alise> Without quaffing them.
01:05:32 <Sgeo> No idea, a shop might help slightly
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01:52:39 <alise> Sgeo: are tins any useful?
01:52:50 <Sgeo> Depends what's in it
01:52:56 <Sgeo> Don't eat while hallucinating
01:53:10 <Sgeo> Otherwise you can't tell a cockatrice tin from lizard
01:53:22 <Sgeo> And let's just say cockatrice meat isn't that tasty
01:55:59 <alise> Sgeo: cursed scrolls are a bit useless, right?
01:56:06 <alise> K - a cursed wand of striking
01:56:11 <alise> that's *definitely* useless ... yeah?
01:56:40 <Sgeo> You've used it before, haven't you?
01:56:59 <coppro> cursed wands usually don't do much different
01:57:19 <coppro> cursed striking is certainly fine
01:57:38 <alise> coppro: well, /you/ suggest how to lighten my load :)
01:58:01 <coppro> Sgeo: link to the victorydump?
01:58:11 <Sgeo> http://alt.org/nethack/userdata/DeathOnAStick/dumplog/1264355342.nh343.txt
02:01:01 <alise> a cursed amulet is us... no, i can cleanse it
02:01:05 <alise> are daggers heavy?
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02:03:24 <alise> Okay, seriously, I need to drop something.
02:08:43 <Sgeo> I thought I figured out a good self-imposed challenge in You Have to Burn the Rope, but it's actually impossible that way, I think
02:09:52 <alise> you have to burn the rope has /any/ challenges?
02:10:09 <Sgeo> If you don't use the easy route to the rope...
02:10:18 <Sgeo> But the hard route seems impossible, not just hard
02:11:03 <alise> Sgeo: any tips for lightening my load?
02:11:11 <alise> also, any way other than a BoH to get more space in my huge pokcets?
02:11:29 <Sgeo> Um, don't carry lodestones
02:12:41 <Sgeo> I don't think so
02:12:51 <Sgeo> Ask #nethack ?
02:12:59 <alise> i've asked them enough >_>
02:13:06 <pikhq> alise: All that exists is that you have to burn the rope.
02:13:22 <pikhq> Oh, and the axes that don't do anything.
02:13:31 <Sgeo> YHTBTR difficulty idea: Stay in range of Grinning Colossus for 5min without getting hit once
02:13:31 <alise> pikhq: you should totally tell me to lose some items
02:13:35 <Sgeo> Then burn the rope
02:14:41 <pikhq> Sgeo: Moot point; you can't die.
02:15:15 <Sgeo> Yes, but reset the mental counter when you get it
02:15:37 <alise> so basically you're inventing your own game
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02:16:05 <pikhq> Valid, but yeah...
02:17:12 <alise> pikhq: telnet termcast.org
02:17:18 <alise> help me be able to work smoothly :P
02:18:56 <alise> whoa, i have five viewers
02:20:26 <Sgeo> I may watch SGU now
02:20:31 <alise> Sgeo: are my diluted potions useful?
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02:20:43 <Sgeo> Don't get them wet again unless you want water
02:20:43 <alise> coppro: here, you're my new official executive advisor >.>
02:20:57 <Sgeo> Although they may be less effective diluted, I think
02:21:07 <alise> basically i need to drop shit.
02:26:55 <Sgeo> Narrowly escaped the wraith of the watch
02:26:56 <coppro> because I'm a good corrupt executive advisor.
02:27:29 <alise> coppro: you should have seen it, i had tons of people in #nethack guiding me through every turn
02:27:32 <alise> i killed a watchman
02:27:37 <alise> then ended up fighting the watch captains
02:27:40 <alise> escaped a floor up
02:27:46 <alise> ran past the watch as fast as i could
02:27:55 <alise> spent ages /trying to steal things/ and failing
02:27:57 <alise> finally stole something
02:28:06 <alise> ran all the way around to the shop, gaggle of watch on my trail
02:28:14 <alise> then with something like 18 HP left
02:28:17 <alise> paid back the shopkeeper
02:28:22 <alise> and spammed elbereth to keep the q off me
02:28:27 <alise> (the paying back the shopkeeper pacified the watch)
02:28:35 <Sgeo> Panicked when shopkeeper said that e was after blood, not money
02:28:37 <alise> i was a turn or two away from death
02:28:46 <Sgeo> Hey, is shk now letting you in the store?
02:28:50 <Sgeo> There may be some markup
02:28:56 <alise> oh yeah, i attacked the shk by mistake :D
02:29:18 <alise> "ElberethElbercthElberethElberethElbere?hElbercthEl?erethElberetwElberethE?bKre
02:29:18 <alise> thElberetqElberWthElberc?h|lberetnE
02:29:18 <alise> beretrE?be?ethEl5?reth[lbcrethElberet?".--More--
02:29:48 <Sgeo> And he's not angry, huh
02:29:54 <alise> i paid him back, why would he be angry!
02:30:03 <Sgeo> Because he was after blood
02:30:05 <Sgeo> Where's Izchat?
02:30:19 <alise> he was only after blood because i hit him
02:30:21 <Sgeo> Lighting store owner
02:30:21 <alise> then i settled with money
02:30:29 <Sgeo> Candles and stuff
02:30:34 <Sgeo> Maybe a lamp which may be magic
02:30:44 <Sgeo> Should be Minetown I think
02:31:19 <Sgeo> The Absurd tileset would have NSFW imagery right here
02:31:30 <alise> the one on http://nethack.wikia.com/wiki/Incubus?
02:32:01 <Sgeo> Uh, not that the default tileset is SFW, I guess
02:32:34 <alise> oh yeah, i'm female
02:32:37 <alise> The incubus murmurs in your ear, while helping you undress.--More--
02:32:41 <alise> "Shall I remove your cloak, lover?" [yn] (n)
02:32:59 <alise> if an incubus removes stuff do you get to keep it?
02:33:02 <Sgeo> There may be some negative effects to sex
02:33:21 <alise> i'll just let him undress me then
02:33:32 <alise> Time stands still while you and the incubus lie in each other's arms...--More--
02:33:35 <alise> The incubus seems to have enjoyed it more than you...--More--
02:33:36 <alise> You feel drained of energy.--More--
02:33:39 <alise> The incubus takes 615 zorkmids for services rendered!--More--
02:33:57 <alise> feel "drained of energy;" lose all your power and reduce maximum by 1-10; abuse constitution.
02:34:01 <alise> that's not so good
02:34:04 <alise> otoh, did do me a service
02:34:24 <alise> Sgeo: is ascending to get to that leather armor in lieu of chain mail a good idea?
02:36:58 <Sgeo> alise kicks dogs
02:39:42 <alise> vomiting from eating tripe, a rotten egg, or in SporkHack, drinking a potion of salt water. This is quite unreliable, but it's there.
02:39:47 <alise> worth a try, right?
02:40:22 <Sgeo> FoodPois is preventable
02:40:30 <alise> yes, but it's also too late
02:40:34 <alise> so let's work on cures right now
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03:25:04 <augur> completethis sequence
03:25:08 <augur> pirates, ninjas, zombies, ...
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04:24:08 <zzo38> I have found some problem compute !x without using ! (in C). Legal ops: ~ & ^ | + << >>
04:24:30 <zzo38> I did this way, but I don't know if it is consider as cheating: (1&(1<<x))
04:26:55 <oerjan> !c printf("%d\n", 1<<1000);
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04:33:40 * oerjan isn't sure if there is a better way
04:39:49 <zzo38> !c printf("\001PING\001\n");
04:40:30 <oerjan> you _must_ use << or >> for this, because none of the other operations can make the LSB depend on any non-LSB of x
04:41:06 <zzo38> Of course there are other ways that don't involve variables on the right side, but those ways are longer.
04:41:15 <zzo38> (1&(1<<x)) is short way.
04:41:45 <oerjan> in fact only + can communicate between different bit positions, but only towards more significant bits
04:42:37 <oerjan> um and can those ways be made independent of bitsize?
04:43:07 <zzo38> I don't think the longer ways are independent of bitsize, as far as I know
04:43:28 <oerjan> then i say your solution is best :)
04:43:56 <oerjan> although i don't know c enough to know if << with a right side > bitsize is portable..
04:44:29 <zzo38> I don't know either
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05:09:28 <zeotrope> oerjan: it is undefined behaviour, so it is not portable
05:09:55 <oerjan> well as suspected i guess
05:14:40 <zeotrope> k&r says "The result is undefined if the right operand is negative, or greater than
05:14:43 <zeotrope> or equal to the number of bits in the left expression's type.
05:16:24 <oerjan> hm this might mean that there _is_ no portable solution for zzo38's problem
05:17:01 <Sgeo> What's zzo38's problem?
05:20:22 <lifthrasiir> given x, x|=x>>1; x|=x>>2; x|=x>>4; ... x|=x>>16; x|=x<<1; x|=x<<2; ... x|=x<<16; x+1;
05:20:41 <lifthrasiir> of course not that concise, but it will work
05:21:15 <oerjan> lifthrasiir: how is that portable? note by that i include unknown bitsize
05:21:43 <lifthrasiir> oerjan, then that would be slightly harder
05:21:55 <oerjan> also i imagined it should be a single expression. and , is not allowed.
05:21:55 <Sgeo> Any portable way to determine bitsize?
05:22:11 <oerjan> or assignment operators
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05:24:42 <oerjan> i guess it's a _little_ vague what you're allowed to use beside operators :)
05:25:49 <lifthrasiir> oerjan, so is there any simpler way to map non-zeroes and zero to two different values? ;)
05:26:11 <lifthrasiir> if we have multiplication operator available then that may be possible though...
05:26:38 <oerjan> well.. what do _those_ do on overflow...
05:27:05 <oerjan> for that matter even + isn't safe with signed types, i hear
05:27:45 <lifthrasiir> any possible overflow leads to the undefined behavior in ISO C, right?
05:28:04 <lifthrasiir> (i don't have a copy of the specification right now)
05:28:13 * oerjan doesn't really know these things
05:29:22 <oerjan> i'm just sort of assuming that anything that can reasonably be interpreted in different ways is undefined
05:33:18 <zeotrope> have you looked here http://graphics.stanford.edu/~seander/bithacks.html
05:36:43 <zzo38> zeotrope: I already have that page open right now, actually.
05:38:30 <zzo38> Are you sure about the overflow leading to undefined behavior? For adding and subtracting, overflow should not result in undefined behavior, as long as you don't use some strange representation with -0 and +0 seperate, but none of that is used anymore
05:38:44 <zzo38> For multiplication and division, there might be undefined, maybe???
05:39:52 <zzo38> (Some of the things in the bithacks.html I will first think of it myself before following the link and then see if my way is same or not)
05:40:40 <oerjan> zzo38: i recall addition and subtraction overflow are undefined for _signed_ values, but not for unsigned ones (those are guaranteed to behave as operators wrt. a modulus iiuc)
05:43:12 <zeotrope> "Unsigned integers, declared using the keyword unsigned, obey the laws of arithmetic modulo
05:43:14 <zeotrope> 2n where n is the number of bits in the representation, and thus arithmetic on unsigned
05:43:18 <zeotrope> quantities can never overflow.
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05:51:17 <zzo38> Why is the description for SDL_Color in English and French? (Does it belong to the Government of Canada????)
05:55:34 <zeotrope> I think the Canadian version is named SDL_Colour :P
05:56:58 <zzo38> Yes you are right, if it does belong to the Government of Canada they would do that
05:59:00 <pikhq> zeotrope: And LSMD_Couleur.
06:00:50 <zeotrope> it is strange though, only that page has french translation
06:05:57 * Sgeo tries changing the font from Fixedsys to Dejavu Sans Mono
06:06:04 <Sgeo> I'm not sure if I actually like this
06:11:16 <Sgeo> If I remember, I'll try it tomorrow
06:28:12 <zzo38> Why does SDL require video in the main thread?
06:30:30 <zzo38> Is there some way to make it work in a separate thread?
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06:54:02 <fizzie> Most of those event-driven GUI systems also want you to only touch the GUI objects in the GUI thread.
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07:02:59 <zzo38> I want to do it in a separate thread so that it can emulate the DOS screen.
07:03:32 <pikhq> So, you want a framebuffer. Have the main thread blit it.
07:07:15 <zzo38> No. I want it that the main program can write to the array and then the video program will read it after every frame and redraw the tiles
07:07:38 <fizzie> Just do all SDL-related work in a single thread.
07:07:59 <fizzie> If it for some reason has to be the "main" one, do the "main program" work in some other one.
07:08:09 <pikhq> ... So you want a framebuffer written from one thread and read from a different one.
07:09:01 <zzo38> And that if you write it not synchronized properly, it will even cause flashy stuff like as if you have like a QBASIC program: DO : LOCATE 1,1 : ? CHR$(219); : LOCATE 1,1 : ? CHR$(32); : LOOP
07:10:13 <fizzie> Well, don't add any mutexes or such in, then.
07:31:53 <zeotrope> zzo38: why did you choose to use square brackets to denote sets in hyper set language?
07:32:11 <zeotrope> conventionally curly brackets are used
07:33:31 <zzo38> zeotrope: Well, I just did. In esoteric programming it doesn't really matter though..... It can be designed to use whatever kind of brackets you want it to use, whether it is conventional or not.
07:43:26 <zzo38> Is this optimized? *p++=((charset[b*14+a]>>@4)<<7)+c;
07:43:32 <zzo38> Is it even correct?
07:44:12 <zzo38> I suppose there is still a problem, it does not deal with blinking text (as in CGA text mode)
07:46:54 <zzo38> zeotrope: Yes there is a @ sign in there, the @ signs indicate Enhanced CWEB commands. @4 is the command for how many times this chunk has been used in the program before
07:47:43 <zeotrope> I thought I missed a C operator :)
07:49:04 <zzo38> zeotrope: You didn't miss a C operator. The at sign is not a C operator.
07:50:06 <zeotrope> ya, I got that, it's a CWEB feature
07:50:36 <zzo38> zeotrope: It is not a feature in normal CWEB, some features are specific to Enhanced CWEB only.
07:51:17 <zeotrope> I don't know much about CWEB except that it is knuth's literate C
07:52:54 <zzo38> Other @ commands include: @= is verbatim text, @ space is start new section, @* is start new section in table of contents, @^ is index entry, @3 is chunk parameter, @d is a C preprocessor macro automatically moved to the top, @i is include file, @m defines a metamacro, @- invokes a metamacro, @r is a make rule, @< is a chunk name, there are more
07:54:19 <zzo38> The ones which are specific to Enhanced CWEB are: @r @m @- @) @3 @4 @$
07:54:41 <zzo38> zeotrope: Enhanced CWEB does not use LaTeX though, it uses Plain TeX only.
07:56:51 <zeotrope> how does it compare to tools that are language agnostic like noweb
07:57:50 <zzo38> Enhanced CWEB contains many specific features for C programming, so it is useful for C programming (it can also be used with C++).
07:58:03 <zzo38> I have written a language agnostic tool as well, though, called "yesweb".
07:58:33 <zzo38> (Have you used noweb?)
07:59:53 <zzo38> Have you used yesweb?
07:59:55 <zeotrope> I'm probably going to try it (someday) though
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08:00:42 <zeotrope> the only literate programming I've done was in literate haskell
08:00:44 <zzo38> I wrote yesweb entirely in TeX.
08:01:25 <zzo38> zeotrope: And Literate Haskell is sort of a fake kind of literate programming, in a way
08:01:44 <zzo38> http://sprunge.us/WYAa (yesweb.tex)
08:02:31 <zzo38> As you might be able to see, it involves category codes a lot.
08:03:40 <zeotrope> suprisingly small and readable
08:04:38 <zzo38> The \catcode32=9\endlinechar=-1 allows you to write more readable programs in TeX.
08:04:52 <pikhq> zzo38: Literate Haskell is more something that *can be used* for literate programming.
08:05:02 <zzo38> Because that is the command to make whitespace insignificant.
08:05:34 <pikhq> Of course, you could just use it for something headache-inducing, like having two seperate programs in a single file, instead.
08:05:37 <zeotrope> I've always thought programming in TeX involved some sadism
08:05:54 <pikhq> zeotrope: Only minor amounts.
08:10:06 <zzo38> There are a few strangeness compared from other program language, because TeX is a typesetting system, but it can still be done, as you can see the codes.
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08:11:09 <zzo38> yesweb does both tangle and weave in the same time. If you run TeX with it, it will perform both operations.
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08:11:53 <zzo38> And people often say my programs are surprisingly small. So therefore it is not that much surprise......
08:15:41 <zeotrope> portability is a concern when using such tools
08:15:57 <zeotrope> I guess you could extract the source first
08:18:56 <zzo38> Enhanced CWEB consists of three programs, CTANGLE, CWEAVE, CSPIDER. (CSPIDER can be used instead of makefiles. It processes the same .w files as the other programs do, but ignores anything other than @r commands) (Except that @m @- @i are processed by the preprepreprocessor, which is common to all three programs.)
08:19:47 <zzo38> CWEAVE prints out lines with @r as verbatim text in a box, but with an integral sign at the left, so that you know it is a make rule instead of a C code.
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08:43:25 <zzo38> But metamacro codes are seem somewhat like TECO or Cthulhu.194
08:45:48 <zzo38> (Cthulhu.194 is IRC server script, in case you didn't know)
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08:51:41 <zeotrope> zzo38: could you please explain how this computes successors of a number: {#|[#]}
08:53:08 <zzo38> Yes. # is the number, so that means the set containing all elements of # and also # itself.
08:53:22 <zzo38> This is often how natural numbers are expressed using sets.
08:53:35 <zzo38> Is that explanation good enough?
08:54:55 <zeotrope> which is the multiset {{5} {5,2}}
08:54:58 <zzo38> That is not quite right
08:55:47 <zzo38> In set notation, it is 0={} 1={0} 2={0,1}={{},{{}}} 3={0,1,2}={{},{{}},{{},{{}}}} etc
08:56:14 <zzo38> I am sure there is some Wikipedia page explaining this way of representing natural numbers as sets.
08:56:37 <zeotrope> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set-theoretic_definition_of_natural_numbers
08:57:02 <zeotrope> oh ok, so it is basically that definition
08:58:48 <zzo38> It is also described in section 6.2.1 of [[Natural number]]
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14:37:34 * alise finds a random reference to fizzie on the interwebs
14:39:54 <fizzie> Is it to fizzie fizzie or just any old fizzie?
14:40:18 <alise> Unless there's another Heikki Kallasjoki going around calling themselves "fizban" in the past, it's you.
14:40:47 <fizzie> I don't think there is, though you never know nowadays. Clones, you see.
14:40:50 <alise> nethack.ubiquitous.eu.org, in a list of NetHack servers; supposedly administrated by you.
14:40:58 <fizzie> Yes, I ran one for a while.
14:41:27 <alise> fizzie: But ow, look how *ugly* the site is: http://www.nethack.de/
14:41:40 <alise> You should sue them for defamation by association with horrible web design.
14:41:52 <fizzie> I remember seeing it before; it is indeed remarkably ugly.
14:42:24 * alise concludes that he has no idea which server "NEU" is.
14:42:39 <fizzie> "You are visitor No. Fatal error: Allowed memory size of 41943040 bytes exhausted (tried to allocate 67 bytes) in /home/rg40226web1/public_html/nethack.de/htdocs/counter.phtml on line 94 since the launch of www.nethack.de in September 1999"
14:42:43 <fizzie> That's an interesting number.
14:43:27 <alise> it's from the generalisation of the surreal numbers
14:43:36 <alise> it's hard to find something that /isn't/ a number there...
14:44:09 <fizzie> I don't know about NEU; but NAO had an EC2 instance in Europe, I'm not sure if it's still up.
14:44:31 <alise> Perhaps they meant that. Hmm.
14:44:43 <alise> Eh, what's wrong with just running NetHack locally and sending it to termcast in realtime?
14:44:58 <alise> It's just the same for everyone watching, unless you think I've managed to cheat and /still/ do that badly.
14:44:59 <fizzie> You don't get other people's bones. (Well, unless you run Hearse.)
14:45:15 <alise> Do I really care, though? :p
14:45:25 <fizzie> And there's the score tables, and they've got some useful patches pre-applied.
14:45:36 <alise> Yes, but, but, the LAG!
14:45:36 <fizzie> And permanent-ish logs of all the mistakes you make. :p
14:48:16 <fizzie> Heh, that's some hitpoints:
14:48:16 <fizzie> Milleria the Mage St:18 Dx:25 Co:16 In:25 Wi:25 Ch:18 Chaotic S:116620402
14:48:17 <fizzie> Astral Plane $:0 HP:1098643358(1098643358) Pw:454878184(454878184) AC:-121 Exp:30 T:591084
14:48:55 <alise> fizzie: did you see DeathOnAStick's ascension?
14:49:12 <alise> watching someone blow a magic whistle for about 30 minutes nonstop has never been so mind-numbingly bori^W^Wfun
14:49:16 <fizzie> No, but I sort-of followed the summary here.
14:49:31 <alise> giants hate picking up bags, it seems
14:55:55 <fizzie> For time-wasting fun, I sometimes read the bottom end of http://alt.org/nethack/topdeaths.html
14:56:36 <alise> killed by a fire elemental of Chih Sung-tzu, while praying
14:56:57 <alise> haha: killed by a tiger, while vomiting
14:57:12 <fizzie> "killed by a hallucinogen-distorted hobbit, while unconscious from rotten food"
14:57:18 <fizzie> Very elaborate, sometimes.
14:57:33 <fizzie> Also: sounds like quite a party1
14:58:20 <alise> I know you can tame Pestilence; what about the other three?
14:58:40 <alise> See, I'm just imagining someone ascending with the four horsemen of the apocalypse...
14:59:07 <fizzie> I'd guess the others are equally tamable.
15:07:06 <fizzie> They all have the same level (30); I'm not sure what else would affect the resist() check there.
15:07:26 <fizzie> (Incidentally, the mail daemon demon is level 56.)
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15:13:29 <fizzie> Actually, I'm not sure if you can tame Death.
15:13:56 <fizzie> The magic resistance of all the riders means you can't tame them with magical means normally, except until after you've level-drained them enough. But Death is drain-resistant.
15:14:27 <alise> Hey, I got IBMgraphics in xterm.
15:15:17 <fizzie> I used to play with IBMgraphics through one of them filters, I don't recall what it was. There were some half-solutions that did walls and such right, but not completely everything.
15:15:24 <alise> I'm using konwert.
15:15:30 <alise> But, uh, I like DECgraphics perfectly well.
15:15:48 <alise> Interestingly, konwert doesn't break DECgraphics.
15:17:17 <fizzie> Oh, right, the rogue level with IBMgraphics on was problematic in some systems. I think konwert is what I used, too.
15:20:44 <alise> http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20071229043809/nethack/images/8/8d/Xterm-ibm-oracle.png
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15:36:59 <fizzie> "Famine and Pestilence can be tamed by draining some levels from them and then repeatedly casting charm monster. -- Death is immune to level drain, and hence cannot be tamed in this way." Aw.
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15:50:13 <fizzie> (There appears to be a Slash'EM workaround. And even in NetHack you can green-slime Death to get a tame "the green slime formerly known as Death" (maybe you could name it that), but it's still not the same.)
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16:36:31 <Sgeo_> alise, you can't tame yourself!
16:36:57 <Sgeo_> <alise> I know you can tame Pestilence; what about the other three?
16:37:16 <alise> <fizzie> (There appears to be a Slash'EM workaround. And even in NetHack you can green-slime Death to get a tame "the green slime formerly known as Death" (maybe you could name it that), but it's still not the same.)
16:37:21 <alise> can you change that back into death?
16:37:37 <Sgeo_> You said other three, presumably riders
16:38:04 <fizzie> At that point in the game, you are War.
16:38:41 <fizzie> There's just Death, Famine and Pestilence you could tame. And apparently Death is a no go too.
16:39:06 <coppro> Famine and Pestilence can both be tamed
16:41:21 <alise> Sgeo_: what channel?
16:41:37 <alise> fizzie: you become war? awesome
16:41:47 <fizzie> Well, it's pretty implied.
16:41:58 <fizzie> But monst.c has a comment: /* Riders -- the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse ("War" == player) */
16:42:16 <alise> Sgeo_: termcast the game
16:42:53 <alise> Sgeo_: script -f >(echo 'hello Sgeo <any password>' | nc -q5 noway.ratry.ru 31337 >/dev/null)
16:42:57 <alise> Sgeo_: then just "nethack"
16:43:12 <alise> unless it's on NAO
16:43:26 <Sgeo_> I'm on NAO, but not this second
16:43:52 <alise> you're not very far in the game :P
16:43:58 <alise> even less far than me >_>
16:44:03 <alise> otoh you have more useful stuff
16:44:04 <alise> from the looks of it
16:44:13 <fizzie> The Slash'EM workaround for a tame Death seems to be to polyself into a "genetic engineer", which can hit people and cause a temporary polymorph ("undergo a freakish metamorphosis"); then you whack Death, tame the resulting critter, and it'll revert back to a tame Death.
16:44:28 <Sgeo_> v - a cursed rusty pearl ring named noncursed
16:44:33 <alise> fizzie: so ... can you tame green-slime death then polymorph him into death?
16:44:55 <Sgeo_> alise, it does make sense to call your soft gems soft
16:45:10 <fizzie> You can't polymorph things into Death, I don't think.
16:45:28 <Sgeo_> In case you pick up another gem, you'll instantly see whether it's soft
16:46:07 <Sgeo_> How'd that spellbook get blanked :(
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16:47:36 <Sgeo_> alise, I'm scared of the throne room
16:47:53 <alise> conga line of death
16:49:19 <alise> Sgeo_: or just go in there
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16:49:26 <alise> you can easily flee
16:49:30 <alise> there's a staircase right next to it
16:50:06 <alise> don't go fully in mind, just let them see you
16:50:14 <alise> they'll follow, etc
16:50:26 <alise> you can fight from there
16:50:58 <alise> Sgeo_: after killing the bugbear i'd retreat to get hp
16:51:06 <alise> you did not need to elbereth there
16:51:43 <alise> not going to 100.?
16:51:45 <Sgeo_> At least I have a nice door now
16:51:51 <alise> you're burdened, btw
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16:52:10 <alise> i suggest 100. for restoring hp :P
16:52:21 <Sgeo_> lol at hefty lichen corpse
16:52:40 <alise> lichen corpse that broke the adventurer's back
16:53:15 <alise> you're a coward :D
16:53:22 <alise> go up there and fight melee like a man
16:53:40 <alise> who knows, but stop it
16:53:48 <alise> it isn't helping :P
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16:54:14 <alise> call a spade a spade
16:54:18 <alise> call a murky potion momentary vision
16:54:42 <Sgeo_> Thanks Rodney-bot!
16:54:50 <alise> Sgeo_: 100., run in
16:54:59 <alise> don't retreat to 100., that's what COWARDS do.
16:56:01 <Sgeo_> I just realized I don't need to be in the throne room
16:56:54 <alise> are you scared of melee or something :D
16:57:32 <alise> now the idea would be to loot the box and sit on the throne ...
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16:58:10 <alise> ais523: I got on the /really/ bad side of the Minetown Watch with bad luck and somehow still survived.
16:58:49 <Sgeo_> alise, remind me that my gem collection is on entrance to sokoban?
16:59:08 <alise> ais523: One of my numerous pets started attacking a watchman, so I decided to help it. Bad idea. The whole watch starts chasing me, I fight them in vain, lose a few pets, flee upstairs. Ask #nethack. A plan is formed.
16:59:57 <alise> ais523: After I restore my HP, I go back down, and sneak into the general store, taking quite a bit of damage from the watch while I'm at it. I try, numerous times, to steal something, failing each time and at one point digging out of the store. Finally, I manage to steal something, and escape the store.
17:00:22 <alise> ais523: I scramble to get back into the shop, running away from the Watch, and accidentally attack him. I try to pay; he wants blood, but he settles for my money, which I give him.
17:00:39 <alise> ais523: This pacifies the Watch completely. I spam Elbereth to defend myself from the nearby q, then wait five billion turns to get my HP back.
17:00:45 <alise> Only one of my pets survived.
17:00:54 <alise> Sgeo_: It can't be too bad, can it? :P
17:01:05 <Sgeo_> Thank Magicbane it wasn't!
17:01:26 <Sgeo_> Don't know if Magicbane blocked it, or was the target
17:01:28 <alise> ais523: tl;dr if the watch is angry because you killed one of them, steal a bunch of shit from a shop, destroy its walls, attack the shopkeeper, and then give him a bit of money; they'll like you again.
17:01:42 <alise> Sgeo_: Malignant aura, so presumably Magicbane is damaged.
17:01:46 <ais523> alise: did you figure that trick out for yourself? or find it in a spoiler?
17:01:58 <alise> ais523: #nethack devised it as a plan, but there was a fair bit of improv from me
17:02:09 <ais523> and magicbane has a 95% resistance to curses when wielded
17:02:12 <Sgeo_> ais523, You feel a malignant aura surround the magic-absorbing blade.
17:02:22 <alise> #nethack said "steal from a shop then pay it back"; after that, it was basically trying various ways to steal
17:02:23 <ais523> that means it wasn't affected
17:02:54 <alise> right now I'm at level 10 (thanks, incubus), got rid of that cursed stuff, am a bit low on food, and stuff.
17:02:56 <alise> still in the mines
17:03:09 <alise> "a piece of food (corpse named Shaggy Dog)"
17:03:27 <alise> Oh yeah, I'm in a pit, trying to get my new pet dog, Moof, to follow me.
17:03:53 <alise> ok, moof, come on, it's just a pit
17:04:12 <alise> ais523: /can/ dogs get over pits?
17:04:46 <ais523> if you have a pickaxe handy, you can dig round it
17:05:05 <alise> i don't, i have a wand of digging though
17:05:06 <coppro> at this stage in the mines you should have a pickaxe, by the way
17:05:12 <alise> coppro: noted; i don't
17:05:15 <alise> coppro: perhaps i'll find one
17:05:23 <Sgeo_> I can move diag in soko?
17:05:31 <alise> Sgeo_: a fruit? you're /boring/
17:05:47 <coppro> err wait... maybe you can if you don't move round anything>?
17:06:24 <alise> you can definitely move diagonally around enemies
17:06:36 <alise> ais523: can i dig around a pit with the wand of digging? I've never used it before
17:06:56 <ais523> alise: yes, if you're not in the pit at the time
17:07:05 <ais523> you only need to destroy one square orthogonally next to the pit
17:07:15 <alise> Moof is killed! You stop waiting.
17:07:17 <ais523> and then pets can walk round
17:07:22 <Sgeo_> I should engrave-test
17:07:53 <alise> wtf, that corpse is recent
17:08:02 <alise> i prayed ... pretty recently to cure food poisoning
17:08:06 <alise> any suggestions? >_<
17:08:17 <alise> (stupid things dying where a corpse already is and leaving no corpse)
17:09:17 <alise> my supplies are ... dismal
17:09:21 <alise> i'd get more, but it turns out minetown is shit.
17:09:27 <alise> the delicatessen had, like, three things in it!
17:09:41 <coppro> you're quite possibly screwed
17:09:56 <alise> potions of full healing
17:10:06 <alise> how the hell do i have 3, anyway? they were just lying around!
17:10:07 <coppro> why don't you just drink one then
17:10:11 <alise> i forgot i had them
17:10:15 <coppro> that'll cure the poisoning
17:10:27 <Sgeo_> I have two wands, both of which are one of make invis/teleport/cancel
17:11:01 <alise> coppro: is there likely to be a pickaxe lying around?
17:11:18 * alise notes that Wooble is onto the endgame
17:11:32 <alise> A bear trap closes on your foot!
17:12:44 <alise> is it safe to apply it now to see whether it's magic?
17:12:48 <alise> or does it not last long enough?
17:12:50 * Sgeo_ is getting better at vi keys
17:14:08 <ais523> alise: magic harps have charges
17:14:32 <alise> Wooble feels mildly hot.
17:14:52 <alise> everyone's criticising his gameplay in #nethack :D
17:15:30 <alise> You start playing the harp. The harp twangs.
17:15:39 <alise> ais523: should i worry about being burdened?
17:15:51 <ais523> alise: yes, it slows all your actions
17:16:07 <ais523> that's quite a crippling penalty, if you think about it
17:16:39 <alise> ok then: **STASH on dlvl 8 mines, topleft corner
17:16:53 <alise> Sgeo_: do i /have/ gems?
17:17:03 <alise> ais523: what are rings good for?
17:17:06 <alise> i haven't used one once...
17:17:19 <ais523> alise: they give permanent and minor benefits (or penalties) while worn
17:17:28 <ais523> some are really dangerous, but most are moderately useful
17:18:00 <alise> ais523: the uncursed ones are all useful, right?
17:18:13 <ais523> even detrimental rings can be uncursed
17:18:18 <Sgeo_> Sometimes the dangerous ones are unpredictable
17:18:21 <alise> any way to ID them?
17:18:22 <ais523> but in that case, you can take them off again if you figure out they're dangerous
17:18:27 <Sgeo_> You won't know it's dangerous until it's too late though
17:18:29 <ais523> dropping duplicates down a sink
17:18:41 <ais523> price-ID can help to some extent, but I normally don't bother
17:19:10 <alise> ais523: is it worth just stashing all my rings?
17:19:15 <alise> I don't know what my scrolls are
17:19:20 <alise> and i'm not using any of the rings
17:19:28 <ais523> stash rings if you aren't using them, yes
17:19:31 <ais523> try to price-ID identify
17:19:57 <alise> ok, so price ID them in minetown first?
17:20:09 <alise> i don't think there's anywhere selling rings in minetown ...
17:21:10 <alise> or will the general store id them?
17:25:16 <alise> dcss makes me dizzy
17:25:25 <Sgeo_> Get away from the boulder
17:25:29 <Sgeo_> I wanna force bolt you
17:25:39 <alise> just fight it dammit
17:28:29 <alise> i like how it's so boring that it walks around for you
17:29:05 <Sgeo_> I should probably go eat food now
17:29:47 -!- nooga has joined.
17:30:43 <alise> ais523: so, can i price-id rings in minetown?
17:31:03 <ais523> if you find a shop that buys them, yes
17:31:08 <ais523> general stores will work
17:31:26 <alise> ais523: amusingly, straight after that kerfuffle with the watch and the shop, the shk started liking me again
17:31:52 <alise> ais523: um ... can you connect to my termcast for a second?
17:31:53 <ais523> yep, it's a bug exploit
17:31:59 <alise> i'm very close to YASD
17:32:07 <alise> i should not have attacked it without looking it up
17:32:19 <ais523> draw the best-quality Elbereth you can
17:32:24 <ais523> do you have a wand of fire handy?
17:32:28 <alise> ais523: i have a potion of full healing
17:32:33 <alise> that would be rather good to quaff with 3hp, right?
17:32:38 <alise> or will it get to attack me before i quaff it?
17:32:39 <ais523> yep, you'll last one turn agains it
17:32:46 <ais523> and it's your turn now
17:32:49 <ais523> so the quaffing will be the next thing that happens
17:33:00 <alise> I'm lasting more than one turn
17:33:04 <ais523> heh, no longer burdened, so it can't hit you as quickly
17:33:17 <ais523> you could probably kill it from there, actually
17:33:24 <alise> i have a magic missile :P
17:33:49 <alise> that would be rather clever, right?
17:33:54 <alise> or should i save it?
17:35:05 <Sgeo_> What did alise attack?
17:35:23 <alise> ais523: so, what should I do?
17:35:28 <alise> are any of my wands useful?
17:35:56 <Sgeo_> There is a wiki page
17:36:02 <Sgeo_> Cold and teleport may both be useful
17:36:16 <ais523> the leocrotta isn't /that/ dangerous
17:36:22 <alise> ais523: erm, i was almost full health
17:36:23 <ais523> especially as you're on high HP
17:36:31 <alise> well, maybe four times
17:36:33 <alise> or five, but point is
17:36:36 <alise> yeah, it is dangerous to me
17:36:43 <ais523> I'm not sure attack wands will hurt it more than just melee combat
17:36:43 <alise> and look at the armour i have
17:37:03 <alise> ais523: ok, how's this idea: teleport a little way from it, zap it with my wand of magic thingy or cold
17:37:09 <ais523> teleport isn't controlled
17:37:11 <alise> appears to be effective
17:37:11 <ais523> you land somewhere at random
17:37:19 <alise> ok, teleport, go close to it, zap it with cold
17:37:23 <alise> or should i zap it with cold now, then flee?
17:37:23 <ais523> unless you have a ring of teleport control
17:37:54 <ais523> yep, it was injured from your attacks before
17:37:57 <ais523> probably only had a few hp left
17:38:11 <ais523> they don't give any resistances or anything like that
17:38:38 <alise> what do i have to do, avoid it?
17:38:49 <Sgeo_> Do you have a dead lizard?
17:38:56 <Sgeo_> Like I keep reminding you about?
17:39:04 <alise> if there were ANY DAMN LIZARDS around
17:39:06 -!- cal153 has joined.
17:39:07 <alise> I would kill one and keep its corpse
17:39:09 <alise> but there aren't/.
17:39:13 <Sgeo_> alise, there was one, but you ate it
17:39:18 <alise> that was before you said that
17:39:43 <coppro> you can kill it from a distance
17:39:49 <alise> coppro: will it try and walk up to me
17:40:07 <coppro> you can E it or something
17:40:17 <alise> coppro: you mean elbereth?
17:40:50 <alise> CHICKATRICE RIGHT NEXT TO ME
17:40:55 <alise> ELBERETHELBERETHELBERETHELBERETHELBERETHELBERETHELBERETHELBERETHELBERETH
17:41:12 <coppro> don't engrave multiple at once
17:41:15 <alise> can i hit it with a lance if it's right next to me? is that safe?
17:41:18 <coppro> just keep engraving one at a time
17:41:37 <coppro> it's that it has a small chance when attacking you of inducing stoning
17:41:41 <alise> even if it's at distance zero?
17:41:45 <Sgeo_> It keeps looking like I screwed up Sokoban, but I don't think I have
17:42:03 <coppro> just don't touch the corpse
17:42:21 <Sgeo_> There's MORE of them!
17:42:46 <coppro> also do you have a potion of acid?
17:42:57 <alise> coppro: nope -- "Too close!" says the lance
17:43:01 <alise> i have potions, i don't think any are acid
17:43:09 <alise> i have full healing
17:43:13 <alise> will that save me from stoning?
17:43:30 <Sgeo_> Doing Soko without spoilers is fun!
17:43:39 <coppro> alise: you can just attack rather than apply the lance
17:43:55 <coppro> and no, full ehealing wont' save you
17:43:58 <alise> attack with lance, or will excalibur be ok too?
17:44:07 <alise> phew, it's fleeing
17:44:09 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
17:44:38 <Phantom_Hoover> I wonder if that crappy Battleships program can support the SMBC strategy.
17:44:54 <coppro> so long as you don't attack barehanded
17:45:31 <alise> ais523: there's three chickatrices very close together; how unlucky am I?!
17:45:32 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: yes
17:45:38 <alise> also -- does praying cure stoning?
17:45:39 <ais523> alise: not very, they come in packs
17:45:50 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Client Quit).
17:45:53 <alise> The chickatrice misses. The chickatrice touches you!
17:46:06 <alise> I know, I know, but STILL.
17:46:22 <Sgeo_> Broke some nymph's mirror
17:46:33 <Sgeo_> Well, at least I'm not in mortal stony danger
17:46:35 <coppro> even hissing, you still have a 9/10 chance of survivin
17:46:51 <Sgeo_> Unless it's the new moon, iirc?
17:47:59 <alise> coppro: is it safe just to run, then?
17:48:28 <Sgeo_> Note to self: Please don't die because I haven't been paying attention to nutrition
17:50:09 <alise> chickatrice corpses are bad, right?
17:50:23 <coppro> if you have gloves, they make a powerful weapon
17:50:34 <alise> ok, back to minetown
17:50:35 <Sgeo_> If you don't, RIP Felix... erm, Alise
17:50:57 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:51:09 <alise> not /another/ incubus!
17:51:10 -!- augur has joined.
17:51:13 <coppro> it's safe to walk over them if you are not blind btw
17:51:15 <alise> how much stamina does it think i have?
17:51:35 <Sgeo_> Sex and cockatrices don't mix
17:51:44 <alise> >_< I'm trying to kill you! That is not how to interpret my whacks!
17:51:46 <Sgeo_> ALthough you're not weilding a c, so I guess it's ok
17:52:01 <alise> You can't just steal my money! Sheesh
17:52:30 <alise> You read: "E|berethElbe???hFl|e et?E||?rethLlber? hEl e?cth|l?ercth_lbcre
17:52:30 <alise> wElber th??|KrethE|berctc[l|c?WthElberc?h|?bcr?tnE berc?rE?|e etnEl5?r?th?
17:52:30 <alise> |?rc?hE|| ret".--More--
17:52:39 <alise> ais523: ^ from the Great q Avoidance of Post-Whenever I Pacified the Guard
17:53:00 <alise> so once I get a ring's price, how can I ID it based on that?
17:53:31 <Sgeo_> http://nethack.roy.org/clippy/clippy.pl
17:53:38 <Sgeo_> Um, might be a bit old
17:53:44 <Sgeo_> Don't know if it's 3.4.3 or not
17:54:09 <coppro> I just use the wikihack page
17:54:24 <alise> Even Sgeo_ can't endorse his very own wiki on matters of rings!
17:54:43 <alise> oh i have that don't i
17:54:51 <alise> type, do i put in "ring" here?
17:54:52 <alise> or the colour too?
17:55:48 <ais523> and q = quit, or cancel
17:55:55 <ais523> so it's basically just "yes to all", "no to all"
17:56:49 <alise> http://nethack.roy.org/clippy/clippy.pl?charisma=7&type==&price=50&desc=&price_type=sell
17:56:52 <alise> that's not terribly specific ...
17:57:09 <alise> apparently my ring doesn't exist
17:57:26 <Sgeo_> descriptions are randomized
17:57:31 <Sgeo_> Don't base it off of that
17:57:58 <alise> so if it says *x and it IS x,
17:58:02 <alise> does that mean it's definitely that one?
17:58:33 <Sgeo_> It shouldn't even bother saying *x
17:58:57 -!- Gregor-P has joined.
17:58:57 <alise> ais523: wow, that IDing was utterly useless
17:59:04 <alise> there were like 10 possibilities for each price
17:59:10 <alise> I'm just stashing all of these
17:59:22 <ais523> you can check through the possibilities to see if there's anything dangerous, though
17:59:22 <alise> The incubus is back for mre
17:59:24 <ais523> and wear the ring if not
17:59:27 <alise> How horny can he be?!
17:59:30 <alise> This is the ... fourth time, I think
18:00:10 <Sgeo_> Dear Mr. h: Fuck off
18:00:32 <alise> "your senses are dulled;" wisdom reduces by 1 and is abused.
18:00:51 <alise> ais523: Is there an easy way to stop a foocobus?
18:01:11 <alise> it started undressing me as soon as i walked into it.
18:01:22 <Sgeo_> How do I kill this h?
18:01:26 <alise> the wraith didn't leave a corpse
18:01:34 <Sgeo_> Walk into main dungeon and pick up a few rocks to throw?
18:01:45 <alise> ais523: You stop waiting. You feel very attracted to the incubus.--More--
18:02:05 <ais523> well, you want it to be /your/ turn when it gets next to you
18:02:10 <ais523> so you wait when it's two squares away
18:02:38 <alise> i was waiting without knowing there was another incubus coming
18:02:45 <alise> You feel drained of energy.--More--
18:03:18 <alise> are succubi this pesky? :p
18:03:33 <alise> **NOTE TO SELF: No stash in that level of the mines, I lied; it's on minetown. Rings. =, you know.
18:03:37 <alise> ais523: i mean for males
18:04:13 <alise> I find it weird that the watch doesn't care if you kill innocents.
18:04:22 <alise> but wants to murder you if you so much as steal one thing from a shop.
18:04:47 <alise> ha, I just got $745 from the incubus
18:05:19 <alise> ais523: how useful are lamps etc.?
18:05:29 <ais523> alise: they're useful early in the mines
18:05:35 <ais523> and also in the very late game
18:05:39 <ais523> most of the time, you don't care
18:06:19 <alise> is dlvl 7 early in the mines?
18:06:31 <Sgeo_> Candles are useful late in the game
18:06:43 <Sgeo_> Erm, and by useful, I mean you literally can't win without them
18:06:45 <alise> also, why is the delicatessen so pathetic in this minetown?
18:06:54 <alise> three wide, two high
18:06:58 <ais523> delis are always pathetic
18:07:02 <alise> one of the items is a fortune cookie
18:07:05 <alise> and the other is tin
18:07:10 <alise> ais523: anywhere better to stock up on food around here?
18:07:19 <alise> Sgeo_: right, but there's no point buying a candle at this point, yeah?
18:07:29 <ais523> in the mines? deathdrops is the real main point
18:07:35 <ais523> alise: you are aware that you need 7 candles in order to win?
18:07:40 <ais523> that won't come up until much later, though
18:07:59 <alise> ais523: well, I'm aware now
18:08:07 <alise> but i don't need to buy them now, right?
18:08:10 <alise> there'll be lighting shops later?
18:08:12 <ais523> no, you can leave them for later
18:08:18 <ais523> but there's only one lighting shop in the whole game
18:08:32 <ais523> the shopkeeper, Izchak, is named after one of the original developers, who died of cancer
18:09:30 <alise> Um, good to know, I guess?
18:10:50 <alise> ais523: I guess I'll buy them now and stash.
18:10:53 <alise> So, candles matter, not lamps, right?
18:10:55 <alise> I can handle darkly-lit mines.
18:11:04 <ais523> that's it, it's just the candles that matter
18:11:32 <ais523> (there are only 11 items absolutely necessary in order to win: 7 of them are candles)
18:12:14 <Warrigal> Gregor-P: mind going in #sxmc and explaining what HackuckOO is all about?
18:12:53 -!- Gregor-W has joined.
18:12:57 <alise> ais523: what are the others?
18:13:06 <alise> also, what happens if those seven candles are somehow lost?
18:13:14 <ais523> you can always wish for more in an emergency
18:13:24 <ais523> they generate randomly, but rarely
18:13:56 <ais523> and the others: silver bell/Bell of Opening; Candelabrum of Invocation (to which you need to attach the candles); papyrus book/Book of the Dead
18:14:03 <ais523> and the Amulet of Yendor, ofc
18:14:41 <alise> so is it safe to stash
18:15:03 <ais523> but they're pretty light; normally, I just put them in my bag
18:15:03 <alise> now i need to find a pet
18:15:08 <alise> ais523: I don't have a bag
18:15:51 <alise> where can i obtain one?
18:16:05 <Sgeo_> Particularly foxes?
18:16:24 <ais523> alise: Minetown's a common place, or elsewhere in the mines
18:16:30 <ais523> but you have to stumble across them by chance
18:16:52 <Sgeo_> Should I attempt to kill a unicorn at some point?
18:16:55 <alise> a wand of magic missile that an orc used, funfun
18:17:12 <Sgeo_> I once died to a unicorn
18:17:17 <alise> well, don't again.
18:17:23 <alise> ais523: there isn't one in minetown, alas
18:17:41 <alise> ais523: i'm scared to head down; there's cockachicks there
18:18:43 <Sgeo_> ais523, any advice on unicorn killing?
18:18:56 <ais523> Sgeo_: being faster than the unicorn helps
18:19:01 <ais523> also, beartraps will hold them in place
18:19:07 <ais523> or alternatively, move to a no-tele level
18:19:12 <ais523> if it's winning, run; the unicorn will run too
18:19:30 <Sgeo_> I don't think I'm faster, but I am on no-tele
18:19:37 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:19:40 <alise> I just wacked it in melee and killed it easily ...
18:19:43 -!- augur has joined.
18:19:55 <ais523> Sgeo_: killing unicorns is good, for the horn
18:19:59 <ais523> but they hit really hard
18:20:37 <alise> 28. In Genesis 1:6-8, we are told that one of God's first creations was a firmament in the heavens. This likely refers to the creation of the luminiferous aether.
18:20:43 <alise> --Conservapedia, "Counterexamples to Relativity".
18:20:56 <alise> Maximum batshit-craziness level attained.
18:21:30 <Sgeo_> ais523, should I attack given my low-HPness/
18:21:43 -!- ais523 has left (?).
18:22:02 <alise> ais considered your question so boring he left
18:22:06 <alise> or, it was my quote
18:22:15 <alise> Minkowski space is predicated on the idea of four-dimensional vectors of which one component is time. However, one of the properties of a vector space is that every vector have an inverse. Time cannot be a vector because it has no inverse.
18:23:01 <Sgeo_> ....how did I successfully write Elbereth while blind?
18:23:18 <alise> you can use your finger while blind ...
18:28:47 <Vorpal> <ais523> Sgeo_: killing unicorns is good, for the horn <-- 1) only non-aligned ones 2) they are hard to reach, considering their movement pattern
18:36:46 * alise remembers RDF, a twinge of pain
18:38:39 <alise> Remembering things can be bad for you/
18:40:53 * alise attempts to remember N3, too, as an analgesic, but this doesn't really work
18:45:15 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
18:45:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, I had an idea to force IO scheduling in Lazy K.
18:46:50 <Phantom_Hoover> An IO action returns the IO it has consumed in a separate list, and bind conses the output of the next action onto this, then pares the resultant list down.
18:48:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, the interpreter might be clever enough to work out that the input isn't actually being evaluated.
18:48:24 -!- cpressey has joined.
18:49:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Is it only me who thinks that names that start with a dot look nice?
18:50:09 <alise> You'd like .theprodukkt, and Lojban.
18:51:24 <alise> New syllable, or something; I forget.
18:51:28 <alise> ' is pronounced h, I know that much.
18:51:42 <alise> .mi'e .eliat,xyrd. ;; or something
18:52:05 <alise> Warrigal: here, fix that ^
18:52:32 <Sgeo_> Required in some situations
18:52:55 <Warrigal> alise: yep, that's a valid sentence.
18:53:07 <alise> wareya: but is ".eliat,xyrd." the most accurate rendering of my name?
18:53:18 <alise> .eliat,xrd. was decided on ages ago, but iirc #lojban reconsidered
18:53:20 <alise> and a y snuck in somewhere
18:54:06 <alise> Warrigal: Wait ... ' is pronounced h... would abusing that be Totally Evil?
18:54:23 <Warrigal> Yes. It can only go between two vowels.
18:54:33 <alise> i defy that convention
18:54:43 <alise> What's that? LOJBAN is evolving!
18:54:55 <cpressey> I defy all conventions of Lojban, a.k.a. not going anywhere near it
18:55:03 <alise> ... I've forgotten what a Pokemon evolution looks like.
18:55:15 <Warrigal> I guess .Eli,yt.xyd. is what you want if you pronounce the R in "Hird" non-R-ly.
18:55:50 <alise> i guess it's a bit like Hiid
18:55:55 <alise> It's pronounced exactly like herd.
18:56:03 <alise> Does that help? :P
18:56:33 <alise> I meant to say Huud, yeah
18:56:41 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Mind, I don't really have a northern accent ...
18:57:22 <alise> coppro: is there something i can do to protect myself against cockafoos?
18:58:21 <Sgeo_> Going to watch some SGU now
18:58:49 <alise> Random challenge: Find a way to represent a rational with dynamically-sized numerator and denominator in 64-bit binary that gives the best range; i.e. largest/smallest integer but also smallest rational.
18:59:04 <alise> Preferably not one with bizarre discontinuities like floats; i.e. actual rationals.
18:59:17 <alise> I guess that isn't a very well-defined challenge.
18:59:51 <Phantom_Hoover> How can you implement actual rationals in fixed-size storage?
19:00:01 <cpressey> I think there are undecidable questions about reflective (reflexive?) formulations of automata, even ones with finite storage.
19:00:03 <Sgeo_> How could you not?
19:00:09 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: No...
19:00:17 <alise> Okay, consider this (very bad) representation:
19:00:22 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Er - pait of integers?
19:00:33 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:00:59 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: 1*01*
19:01:05 <Sgeo_> Doesn't mean that the difference between two representable rationals is consistent throughout the range
19:01:08 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: only by the architecture, which you are abstracting away, right?
19:01:22 <alise> the challenge is, of course, to do this much more efficiently.
19:01:29 -!- wareya has joined.
19:01:32 <alise> cpressey: I /did/ specify 64-bits.
19:02:15 <cpressey> alise: Then I'm not sure what Phantom_Hoover means by "actual".
19:02:24 <alise> cpressey: Because zomg Q is countably infinite.
19:02:26 <coppro> alise: hi AC and lizards
19:02:28 <alise> How can you represent that in finite space.
19:02:37 <alise> whoa, i have ac 10
19:02:41 <alise> how did that happen?
19:02:51 <alise> i had like 3 before
19:02:57 <coppro> you took your armor off?
19:03:00 <Sgeo_> Put your clothes back on, alise!
19:03:02 <alise> how did that happen
19:03:10 <alise> i am walking around naked
19:03:11 <Sgeo_> No one wants to see you naked after you had sex with that prostitute!
19:03:20 <alise> not technically a prostitute!
19:03:21 <alise> just a rapist-theif
19:03:47 <olsner> ooh, are we talking about rape?
19:03:52 <Warrigal> alise: well, I thought of a funny method. The lowest and highest integers it can represent are -63 and 63. The closest-to-0 fractions it can represent are 1/63 and -1/63. The highest-denominator fractions it can represent are 6557470319842/10610209857723 and -6557470319842/10610209857723.
19:03:56 <alise> olsner: What a delightful subject!
19:04:08 <alise> Warrigal: That's ... that's really shit.
19:04:31 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> How can you implement actual rationals in fixed-size storage? <-- by limiting the possible range
19:04:34 <alise> coppro: AC 2; is that good enough?
19:04:36 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, how about use one of those neat bijections we thought up?
19:04:45 <Vorpal> (okay that was extremely unhelpful I know)
19:04:49 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Those are useless; and they're not exactly "neat", they're very standard.
19:04:55 <Warrigal> alise: okay, then. Let me introduce you to a fancy technique known as the IEEE floating-point number.
19:05:01 <alise> coppro: I wish there were lizards around here to steal the corpses of.
19:05:02 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, try an UPS then?
19:05:08 <alise> Warrigal: Those have discontinuities, though.
19:05:10 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, they tend to counteract spikes and such
19:05:10 <alise> Warrigal: Such as no 1/3.
19:05:22 <Sgeo_> Vorpal, wrong kind of AC
19:05:24 <Warrigal> alise: so, you want to be able to represent small fractions exactly?
19:05:30 <alise> Warrigal: Instead of limited-but-flexible-range-on-each-side rationals, they're approximations-to-rationals.
19:05:32 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, oh right. air condition?
19:05:37 <alise> Warrigal: Can you grok the former's difference?
19:05:48 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, so is mine, it consists of a tabletop fan
19:05:49 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: As I said, that's not flexible range.
19:05:54 <alise> That's fixed range on each side.
19:06:06 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, alternating current, air condition? I don't know any other meanings of AC
19:06:25 <Warrigal> alise: let me think what you're referring to.
19:06:26 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, you are playing D&D or nethack?
19:06:26 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, I know that.
19:06:39 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, well in that context I know of it
19:06:45 <alise> Warrigal: Okay, basically, consider two 32-bit integers, one numerator, one denominator.
19:06:54 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, lets see.. in nethack it means you have a high value?
19:06:56 <alise> Warrigal: Now imagine if you could make it a 31-bit numerator and a 33-bit denominator, and so on.
19:06:59 <Vorpal> since they count down iirc
19:07:05 <alise> Warrigal: Now make this actually work (you can't just "make" that happen since there's no way to tell which is which).
19:07:13 <alise> It is, of course, okay if you can't actually get 32/32.
19:07:15 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, what is the base AC now again?
19:07:28 <Sgeo_> I _think_ 10 without protection
19:07:44 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, put on some armor?
19:07:53 <Warrigal> So have six bits at the beginning telling you where the break is.
19:08:19 <alise> Warrigal: Okay; that's quite good. But arithmetic on that would suck.
19:08:20 <cpressey> Statically determine the number of bits for each num and denom in the program. HA!
19:08:52 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, why not just use two bignums?
19:09:08 <Warrigal> alise: isn't arithmetic on rational numbers supposed to suck?
19:09:15 <Sgeo_> Because theoretical stuff is interesting?
19:09:19 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, then it is only limited by your computers memory
19:09:20 <alise> Warrigal: Well, the idea of this is...
19:09:23 <Warrigal> alise: think of an efficient way to do 5/8 + 11/13.
19:09:40 <alise> Warrigal: I mean, your method is significantly less efficient than /regular/ rational arithmetic.
19:10:02 <alise> You have to futz with the break-bit.
19:10:22 <Warrigal> And you consider that significant?
19:10:34 <Sgeo_> My dog's name is Sokodog
19:11:05 <Sgeo_> Anyways, off to SGU
19:11:22 <alise> Sgeo_: lizard corpse
19:11:26 <alise> Warrigal: stargate universe
19:11:52 <alise> Warrigal: You should totally watch me flail around in NetHack.
19:12:16 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
19:12:30 <Warrigal> alise: do you call wareya Warrigal?
19:12:54 <Vorpal> alise, playing on NAO?
19:13:15 <alise> telnet termcast.org
19:13:25 <alise> NAO is way too high-latency from here
19:13:28 <alise> so i play locally and termcast instead.
19:13:36 <alise> Warrigal: wareya doesn't really talk; why?
19:13:55 <alise> Vorpal: Yeah, I just got Satiated.
19:13:56 <Vorpal> <alise> NAO is way too high-latency from here <-- same
19:13:58 <alise> It should wear off soon.
19:14:05 <Warrigal> I eat until satiated every so often. What's bad about it?
19:14:06 <alise> It might be a bag of holding!
19:14:10 <alise> I hope it's a bag of holding.
19:14:14 <alise> Warrigal: eating can be dangeorus ... that's about it
19:14:14 <Vorpal> alise, don't put unknown wands in it
19:14:31 <Warrigal> And don't put unknown bags in it.
19:14:36 <Warrigal> Also, don't put wands of cancellation in it.
19:14:51 <Vorpal> alise, and what Warrigal said
19:15:01 <Warrigal> And don't put bags of holding in it.
19:15:24 <Vorpal> alise, don't put wands of cancellation or boh or unknown wands or unknown bags in a boh or unknown bag
19:15:57 <alise> Vorpal: cause now i have to go back down
19:16:01 <alise> and there were chickatrices on this level before
19:16:26 <fizzie> Vorpal, (I guess alise too); it's dexterity that is abused once for every 10 turns if you're satiated. (Also wisdom if you are a monk, too; I guess monks are supposed to be the ascetic sort.)
19:17:30 <Vorpal> alise, bad thing with this compared to NAO is that I can't send you mail
19:18:31 <Sgeo_> Nice thing about NAO now: #name and C now both give you the same prompt: Whether to call a class of objects, individual object, or monster
19:18:36 -!- alise has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:18:48 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, how is that good?
19:18:51 -!- alise has joined.
19:18:59 <alise> FUCKING FUCKING FUCKSHITTING FUCKING PIECE OF FUCKING SHIT!
19:19:06 <alise> I forgot to plug the laptop in to charge
19:19:11 <alise> it turned off when it ran out of battery
19:19:15 <Sgeo_> There may be a recover th... Oh wow
19:19:26 <alise> Vorpal: i started nethack and it asked if it wanted to pick etc.
19:19:33 <Vorpal> alise, it wasn't before you started it
19:19:38 <Vorpal> you could have used nethack-recover
19:19:41 <alise> well gee, thanks for telling me in the past
19:19:43 <Vorpal> alise, now? probably too late
19:19:47 <alise> i didn't realise nethack had a punish_person_whose_battery_is_dead
19:19:49 <Vorpal> alise, but worth a quick try
19:19:52 <alise> Vorpal: worth a try, where do i get nethack-recover
19:19:59 <alise> fucking shitting fuckfuck, i was doing so well that game
19:20:01 <Vorpal> alise, the nethack package?
19:20:04 <alise> if it's lost i'm going to kill someone
19:20:10 <alise> Vorpal: not on arhc
19:20:15 <Vorpal> alise, list files of it
19:20:19 <Vorpal> alise, I'm not on arch atm
19:20:23 <alise> I just tried nethack-recover, it didn't work.
19:20:29 <alise> using pkgfile to find nethack-recover
19:20:32 <Vorpal> alise, it is probably /usr/lib/nethack/bin/recover
19:20:41 <Vorpal> just list files of nethack
19:20:46 <Vorpal> alise, it might not be in $PATH
19:20:56 <alise> [ehird@dinky ~]$ /usr/lib/nethack/recover
19:20:56 <Vorpal> and it might or might not be called nethack-recover or recover
19:21:05 <alise> it wants a base1 argument
19:21:09 <alise> Usage: /usr/lib/nethack/recover [ -d directory ] base1 [ base2 ... ]
19:21:21 <Vorpal> alise, um. don't know read docs?
19:21:31 <Vorpal> alise, I never needed to use it
19:21:47 <Vorpal> alise, probably something in /var/games/nethack
19:21:54 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: which is?
19:22:19 <fizzie> base is the "0user" sort of base-name of the savefile.
19:22:20 <cpressey> I don't think I can handle an AnMaster called "Vorpal"
19:22:41 <Vorpal> I'm not likely to change it
19:23:03 <fizzie> (And -d is the game data directory.)
19:23:05 <cpressey> CakeProphet: Oh, did you just now see the topic?
19:23:16 <Vorpal> cpressey, it is of course a nethack reference as much as it is a Alice through the Looking glass reference
19:23:58 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
19:23:58 <Vorpal> cpressey, so why can't you handle it?
19:24:27 <CakeProphet> so concurrent Haskell is a little mind-bending to work with.
19:24:29 <Vorpal> next he is going to say he couldn't handle fizzie changing nick
19:24:35 <Vorpal> not that I never seen that happen
19:24:47 <fizzie> I don't have any plans to, so I'm "safe" that way.
19:25:43 <alise> Well, there's the end of my nethack kick.
19:26:25 <Vorpal> alise, you might need to sudo
19:26:33 <alise> Checkpoint data incompletely written or subsequently clobbered;
19:26:33 <alise> recovery for "alock" impossible.
19:26:46 <alise> the end of my nethack kick is because i'm pissed off and fed up enough to not want to play any more
19:26:58 <Sgeo_> alise, think of it as YAAD
19:27:18 <alise> except i was doing very well that game, was in no imminent danger whatsoever, and could easily have got further
19:27:27 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined.
19:27:32 <alise> and because nethack loves deleting save files when you resume, it's lost
19:27:34 <alise> so yeah, fuck that.
19:27:50 <Sgeo_> What, you're going to play DCSS?
19:28:02 <alise> no, i'm probably just not going to play roguelikes at all for a while
19:29:50 <Vorpal> <alise> the end of my nethack kick is because i'm pissed off and fed up enough to not want to play any more <-- laptops were invented after nethack pretty much :P
19:29:56 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
19:30:01 <alise> Vorpal: system crashes were not.
19:30:02 <Vorpal> also mine would beep loudly at critical level
19:30:12 <Vorpal> alise, that is why nethack-recover exists
19:30:21 <alise> Vorpal: which failed, because the system chose the wrong time to crash.
19:30:29 <alise> i suppose the dev team count on system crashes being at nicely-scheduled times?
19:31:09 <Vorpal> alise, did you run it as sudo?
19:31:21 <alise> Jesus christ, running things with sudo doesn't fix things!
19:31:34 <Vorpal> alise, considering permissions on /var/games/nethack it might
19:31:34 <alise> Checkpoint data incompletely written or subsequently clobbered;
19:31:34 <alise> recovery for "alock" impossible.
19:31:43 <alise> Well, it didn't, tada.
19:31:54 <Vorpal> alise, that is because you ran nethack I think
19:32:06 <Vorpal> alise, after the crash
19:32:11 <Vorpal> but before nethack-recover
19:32:12 <alise> <ais523> it must have been halfway through writing recovery data when it crashed
19:32:27 <Vorpal> alise, he is not online? where did you speak to him
19:32:32 <alise> he is in #nethack.
19:32:35 <alise> he left this channel.
19:32:46 <Vorpal> alise, invite him here!
19:32:57 <alise> he left because he didn't want to be in here.
19:33:43 <alise> If he wanted to say, I'm sure he would have.
19:33:49 <alise> Sgeo_: don't be so hard on yourself :P
19:34:30 -!- wareya has joined.
19:35:01 <alise> Jesus fucking christ! I'm not going through Sokoban again.
19:35:23 <Sgeo_> alise, I may be able to help with Sokoban
19:35:34 <Sgeo_> Also, it's strictly optional
19:35:38 <Sgeo_> Good idea, but optional
19:36:07 <alise> Yeah, whatever, I'm not going through all the stuff before Sokoban either.
19:36:10 <alise> Or any of it. Or fuck that.
19:36:25 <CakeProphet> this conversation would be more INTENSE with CAPS LOCK
19:36:31 <Sgeo_> You'd have to again soon
19:36:45 <alise> Sgeo_: Actually, the mines were exceedingly easy.
19:36:51 <Flonk> CAPS LOCK MAKES THINGS MORE AWESOME.
19:37:02 <Sgeo_> Yes, but you really think you'd ascend this game?
19:37:12 <alise> But I expected to get quite a bit further.
19:38:00 <Flonk> Phantom_Hoover_: At your service
19:38:32 <Sgeo_> Flonk, give me a programmer's bit
19:38:39 <Flonk> Phantom_Hoover_: alright, but you'll need to get it youself
19:38:49 <alise> NetHack needs a combination of switches, -f -u -c -k, that will put you in a room with ten thousand easy-to-kill monsters to take your frustration out on.
19:38:56 <Flonk> thats not #IRP lol
19:39:01 <Flonk> Phantom_Hoover_: nope, I'm from austria
19:39:17 <Phantom_Hoover_> alise, well, debug mode + levelport + bigroom is good for that.
19:39:33 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: but also a bitch
19:40:29 <alise> How can you attack your pet?
19:40:32 <Sgeo_> Hit death with a /oDeath
19:40:46 <alise> Felix yowls! You kill poor Felix! Welcome to experience level 3.--More--
19:41:17 <Sgeo_> Phantom_Hoover_, I knoww
19:41:21 <alise> coppro: the downstair WASN'T under that boulder
19:41:28 <Vorpal> <CakeProphet> this conversation would be more INTENSE with CAPS LOCK <-- Caps Lock, I never seem a keyboard with it in all upper case
19:41:33 <alise> coppro: i don't know, and i'm fainting
19:41:36 <Vorpal> though that is somewhat ironic
19:41:45 <alise> coppro: now i'm fainting every other turn
19:41:49 <alise> Sgeo_: i copied the savefile out to investigate later
19:41:54 <alise> the Dlvl 1 of Doom
19:41:59 <alise> i've mapped out almost the entire screen
19:42:01 <alise> not a single downstair
19:42:13 <Vorpal> just checked the keyboards/laptops I have around here: Caps Lock, Caps Lck, CapsLk
19:42:16 <alise> can i gnaw on my leg?
19:42:18 <Phantom_Hoover_> When you have debug, and hence unlimited wishes and resurrects.
19:43:06 <alise> i killed felix for food but he didn't leave a corpse :)
19:43:11 <fizzie> Vorpal: FWIW, this keyboard has a "CAPS LOCK", with CAPS on one line, and LOCK under it, and then a little "A in a box" symbol vertically centered, to the right of the text.
19:43:21 <alise> As you read the scroll, it disappears. Your hands begin to glow red.--More--
19:44:11 <alise> my savefiled stupid fucking deleted game isn't even in the record
19:44:14 <alise> fucking fucking fuck
19:44:23 <alise> WHY DOES NETHACK REMOVE SAVE FILES ON RESUME APART FROM TO STOP CHEATERS
19:44:29 <alise> i'm not going to cheat
19:45:13 <alise> i can't believe i'm this pissed off...
19:45:17 <alise> but seriously i was doing well!
19:45:27 <Sgeo_> My laptop hibernates when it's low on power
19:45:49 <Vorpal> fizzie, FWIW? For ? Information ?
19:45:49 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: i doubt it
19:45:52 <alise> options are game-related
19:46:05 <alise> Vorpal: for why information wins
19:46:18 <Sgeo_> Vorpal, For what it's worth
19:46:28 <olsner> it's a silly limitation
19:46:43 <olsner> why can't they just let you choose how you manage your savefiles yourself, bah
19:46:51 <alise> olsner: because it's designed for multi-user systems
19:46:54 <alise> so it's very ... protective
19:47:04 <alise> also, resuming savefiles after you die is Very Much Against the Rules
19:47:11 <fizzie> Vorpal: "For what it's worth."
19:47:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, right, as Sgeo_ said
19:47:34 <olsner> you can make savefile backups manually but it's apparently considered cheating somehow
19:47:58 <Phantom_Hoover_> I was once accused of cheating on #nethack for asking what the extent of NH's savefile protection was.
19:48:08 <alise> but #nethack are nice ...
19:48:54 <Phantom_Hoover_> Yeah, the person was nice after I explained that I was just curious.
19:49:27 <Phantom_Hoover_> TV Tropes seems to be wrong about it encoding the inode into a savefile to prevent copying.
19:51:15 <alise> nethack.eu is low latency but not low latency enough
19:51:18 <fizzie> Paranoid, but overly brittle.
19:51:58 <Sgeo_> alise, well, you'd rather have this situation happen again?
19:52:29 <alise> Sgeo_: i'd rather not keep it unplugged
19:52:55 <Sgeo_> You're playing again though? :D
19:53:06 <alise> same time, same bat-channel.
19:53:19 <alise> let's see if i can't stab the wizard of fucking yendor to death
19:53:59 <alise> telnet termcast.org
19:53:59 <Sgeo_> telnet termcast.org
19:54:23 <alise> going to adjust a setting or two
19:55:11 <alise> stubborn doors here
19:55:46 <alise> felix died already
19:55:47 <Sgeo_> Permanently answering your qu.. not that it matters
19:55:57 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: turn 220
19:58:09 <alise> general store on lvl 1 ftw
19:58:10 <Vorpal> <olsner> you can make savefile backups manually but it's apparently considered cheating somehow <-- yes iirc it done by recording inode ins the files or some other such devious trick
19:59:18 <alise> Sgeo_: Let's see if I can't steal...
19:59:20 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, note "iirc"
19:59:25 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, learn what it means
19:59:31 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, it also records pid iirc
19:59:48 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, forgot why it does that
20:00:28 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, not sure
20:00:55 <Phantom_Hoover_> Vorpal, to stop you interrupting the normal save-quit process?
20:01:08 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover_> TV Tropes seems to be wrong about it encoding the inode into a savefile to prevent copying. <-- checked their nethack article, they don't mention anything about that?
20:01:52 <alise> how do you destroy a boulder again?
20:02:37 <alise> i've forgotten how i did it in sokoban :P
20:02:50 <Vorpal> alise, Don't destroy boulders in sokoban
20:02:56 <alise> long sword, dagger, small shield, plate mail, food, magenta potion
20:02:58 <alise> Vorpal: no it's not
20:03:02 <alise> Vorpal: it's the only way i solved the last one
20:03:08 <alise> and you get it back
20:03:24 <alise> i.e. well worth it if the alternative is /not completing sokoban/
20:03:27 <Sgeo_> Unless you have a non-blessed Luckstone
20:03:30 <Vorpal> well yes, but I try to have a luckstone and be on positive luck
20:03:53 <alise> so you'd rather forfeit sokoban?
20:04:15 <Sgeo_> I'd rather not screw up Sokoban
20:04:40 <Vorpal> yeah you shouldn't need it in sokoban
20:05:08 <alise> Sgeo_: wtf @ invincible box
20:05:11 * Sgeo_ breaks alise's legs
20:06:18 <Vorpal> alise, invincible box?
20:06:27 <alise> Vorpal: it took like 40 hits to unlock
20:06:43 <Sgeo_> alise, wow, far out man
20:06:44 <alise> hallu is the best state of mind in which to be in.
20:07:08 <Sgeo_> When I played NetHack around the first time, I was hungry
20:07:19 <alise> You are getting the munchies.
20:07:29 <Sgeo_> I thought "Hallu" meant hallelujah that I am not starving
20:07:44 <alise> Then you got killed by a master lichen?
20:09:49 <alise> Everything looks SO boring now. You stop waiting.
20:10:28 <alise> Conga line of ssssssnakes
20:11:19 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
20:12:27 <Sgeo_> You can blind stuff with that pie
20:12:36 <Sgeo_> But blinded creatures don't respect Elbereth
20:12:48 <Sgeo_> Unless they were born blind
20:13:13 <alise> Ah, I see: only creatures that were born blind can read.
20:13:28 <alise> This dog is the most cursed.
20:13:52 <Sgeo_> RIP Fluffy Ol' Felix
20:14:24 <alise> .. What the fuck?!
20:16:38 <alise> Sgeo_: Is being hit by a floating eye really so bad?
20:16:53 <Sgeo_> Being paralized by one and dying to some grid bug is
20:17:08 <alise> How long does the paralysis last?
20:17:27 <alise> Well, that was easy.
20:17:55 <Sgeo_> Methinks Fluffy saved your life by weakening that eye
20:18:32 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined.
20:19:28 <Flonk> Phantom_Hoover_: http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/7154/lalzn.jpg there you go. (look at that awesome blue cat with the white tail)
20:20:05 <alise> Milk is unacceptable.
20:20:10 <alise> But yes, appallingly weak.
20:20:21 <alise> Did you let it infuse for three or more minutes?
20:20:27 <alise> I AM VERY SKEPTICAL OF THIS PROPOSITION.
20:20:45 <Flonk> I'm sorry. I think it were only 2.
20:20:59 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: But why would you drink lowish-end tea?
20:21:09 <alise> **NOTE TO SELF: Stash on dlvl 6.
20:21:17 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: Gentlemen do not lack money!
20:21:21 <alise> And besides, even if they do,
20:21:27 <alise> what better thing to spend your minimal money on than tea?!
20:22:48 <alise> **NOTE TO SELF: Stash consists of plate mail and nothing else.
20:23:13 <Sgeo_> What's the name of a poisonous corpse?
20:23:28 <Sgeo_> I can't seem to get PinoBot to warn me about dangerous corpses
20:24:07 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: because it has N namespaces, but most people only care about 2
20:24:15 <alise> Sgeo_: are cursed scrolls ever useful?
20:24:35 <Sgeo_> cursed scroll of genocide lets you make monsters
20:24:49 <Sgeo_> Cursed scroll of teleport lets you teleport to different levels
20:25:12 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: not for the point that lisp-2 makes
20:26:06 <alise> Sgeo_: quarterstaffs any good?
20:26:19 <Sgeo_> Wizards start with one
20:26:44 <alise> are they any good?
20:27:41 <Sgeo_> What's good are athames
20:27:52 <Sgeo_> They engrave elbereth semi-permanently and fast
20:28:14 -!- Wamanuz2 has joined.
20:28:31 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover_: jade*: nothing grew among the rafters. withel regarded it without love. ymor's ravens were notoriously loyal to their design, prisoners and slaves that have sucked blood from larger animals.
20:28:42 <alise> Sgeo_: I don't often Elbereth.
20:28:46 <alise> coppro: I'll pick it up then.
20:29:15 <coppro> alise: you would if you have Magicbane :D
20:29:15 * alise establishes an attitude of complete ignoring to his pets
20:29:24 <alise> coppro: i'm a valk man
20:29:28 <alise> excalibur is more my thing
20:30:10 <coppro> alise: it's useful against certain monsters still
20:30:40 <alise> LIGHT LIGHT OH THE LIGHT
20:30:45 <alise> WHAT CAN I DO BUT STAND IN FRIGHT
20:30:52 <alise> (The answer is "run")
20:30:56 -!- sshc has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
20:31:04 <alise> Oops, that didn't work. Oh well.
20:31:14 <alise> You feel more confident in your weapon skills. It yelps! You hit it.
20:31:44 -!- sshc has joined.
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20:32:44 <Sgeo_> You're on Dlvl 7 so soon
20:32:48 <Sgeo_> Or maybe I just suck
20:32:55 <alise> The first levels are ... boring.
20:33:04 <alise> I just map them out, kill whatever appears, pick shit up and move on.
20:33:07 <alise> No training or anything.
20:33:43 <alise> this is dlvl 8 and i'm only exp 6
20:33:46 <alise> so i should train a bit
20:34:23 <alise> Sgeo_: it's just that nothing's really attacked me.
20:34:42 <nooga> i con't like the idea thet you cannot save game whenever you llike
20:34:48 <Sgeo_> nooga, like Angband?
20:35:06 <alise> if your sytem doesn't crash it's FUN!
20:37:28 * Sgeo_ WTFs at online graphical nethack
20:37:51 <alise> i keep mixing up up and downstairs
20:38:04 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
20:39:41 <alise> I just killed a horse in one hit fuck yeah
20:40:05 <alise> How can I ID my bag?
20:41:01 <Sgeo_> You're not dead yet
20:41:06 -!- Gregor-W has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
20:41:07 <alise> prayed merely turns ago
20:41:12 <alise> no idea what my potions are
20:41:34 <Sgeo_> Is the monster in question Elbereth-respecting?
20:41:41 <alise> Soldier ant; so yes, I suppose so.
20:43:03 <alise> Sgeo_: Fucking return key
20:43:14 <Sgeo_> Return key shouldn't cause you to wait
20:43:27 <alise> It caused me to /move/.
20:43:35 <alise> You were fast; you are dead.
20:44:21 <alise> I can do Valkyrie; I've never played any of the others. :)
20:44:52 <Sgeo_> Floating eyes are SO easy to kill when you're a wizard
20:45:10 <alise> Dammit, tweaking settings
20:45:21 <alise> I disabled autopickup
20:45:23 <alise> Turns out that's irritating.
20:46:48 <alise> Removed = because fuck rings.
20:47:00 <alise> Actually, added them back in because I'm used to it.
20:47:31 <Sgeo_> I'm playing again'
20:50:44 <Phantom_Hoover_> So what understandable Scheme-in-Scheme compilers are there?
20:50:45 <Sgeo_> grr, need to drop stuff
20:51:00 <nooga> i play angband because i don't like nethack's key bindings
20:51:14 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: ichbins is "almost scheme"
20:51:20 <alise> nooga: you mean vi keys?
20:51:46 <alise> nooga: you can use the number pad
20:51:52 <alise> if you enable numpad
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20:57:56 -!- sftp has joined.
20:58:11 <alise> Sgeo_: SO MANY BOULDERS
20:58:55 <alise> i was talking about my game XD
20:59:47 <Sgeo_> Believe me, there are more boulders here
21:01:11 -!- zeotrope_ has joined.
21:03:06 <Sgeo_> I stayed unspoiled the first two levels, minor spoilers the third level, and completely spoiler-reliant the 4th
21:04:04 -!- zeotrope has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:04:09 <fizzie> The SICP compiler is very understandable, but it's also not very serious.
21:05:33 <fizzie> It also targets a strange simulated Scheme register machine; I'm not quite sure what you wanted with a "Scheme-in-Scheme compiler".
21:05:42 <alise> dlvl 3, exp 1; this is ludicrous
21:06:58 -!- Gregor-W has joined.
21:08:58 <alise> Sgeo_: It feels so much like I'm just ... messing around
21:09:37 <alise> abandoned felix dlvl 3, can't find him
21:09:41 <alise> oh, he's down there.
21:13:31 -!- sshc has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
21:13:34 <alise> Sgeo_: Shall I fight the shk?!
21:13:41 <alise> <Deuce> shk damage: 4d4/4d4
21:13:44 <alise> I CAN TOTALLY HANDLE THAT.
21:14:44 <alise> Your long sword softly glows with a light blue aura.
21:14:48 <alise> The issue is more my HEALTH, Tyr.
21:14:50 -!- sshc has joined.
21:18:56 <alise> Sgeo_: Think I should start another game?
21:19:40 <alise> Because I... I.... Yeah, okay.
21:20:02 <alise> Sgeo_: wow, no doors
21:21:17 <Sgeo_> Look for more doors!
21:21:34 <alise> Hey, NetHack does calculus.
21:22:01 <alise> Monsters, you're not meant to run away from me.
21:22:59 <alise> You read: "1994-1995. The Longest-Lived Hacker Ever".--More--
21:28:00 <alise> Sgeo_: low-lighting ... room
21:28:03 <Sgeo_> BTW, Trapdoor != death
21:28:25 <alise> hardest cave spider ever
21:28:47 <alise> HOW IS IT DOING THIS
21:29:37 <Sgeo_> DIE DIE DIE MYSTERIOUS MONSTER BEHIND BOULDER!
21:29:51 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: "dx"
21:29:57 <alise> Sgeo_: a cave spider just got my hp down from ~32 to 7
21:31:06 -!- zeotrope_ has changed nick to zeotrope.
21:32:10 <alise> @ a human or elf (werejackal) [seen: normal vision, infravision]
21:32:12 <alise> Praying time soon <3
21:33:30 <alise> Dlvl:5 $:358 HP:66(66) Pw:6(6) AC:6 Exp:5 T:1938
21:35:35 <Sgeo_> Thank you Sokodog!
21:42:09 <Sgeo_> Don't anger shopkeepers?
21:42:28 <alise> but but but but the
21:43:19 <alise> **HORRIBLY OFFENSIVE** He'll kill you with cancer!
21:43:27 <alise> ...but yeah, fuck the watch. Fuuuuuuck them.
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21:46:21 <nooga> is there any comfortable frontend for nethack?
21:46:58 <alise> nooga: yes, nethack
21:47:02 <alise> turn on numpad if you don't like vi keys
21:47:10 <alise> nooga: ... there are guis, but i don't like them
21:47:13 <alise> you might want a large terminal
21:47:19 <alise> to stop inventory etc taking up space on the screen
21:47:30 <alise> set DECgraphics, colour, hilite_pet... in fact a bunch of options
21:47:34 <alise> you may like the menucolour and HPmon patch
21:50:04 <pikhq> Fucking fuck what?
21:50:14 <pikhq> Apparently, 2 > 1 > 3
21:50:26 <pikhq> Erm, 2 < 1 < 3, sorry.
21:50:34 <pikhq> Which is still wrong wrong wrong.
21:51:51 <nooga> alise: but how am i supposed to move
21:51:58 <nooga> i don't have numeric keyboard
21:52:03 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
21:52:05 <nooga> adn hjkl is painful
21:52:08 <alise> nooga: ok ... then suck it up and learn vi keys
21:52:13 <alise> make sure your hand rests on hjkl
21:52:15 <pikhq> alise: The Primary Phase of H2G2 is showing as discs 3, 1, 2, or 2, 1, 3, depending.
21:52:27 <alise> nooga: srsly, for the amount of time a game takes in nethack -- which is LONG
21:52:32 <alise> the time spent getting used to vi keys is nothing
21:52:37 <alise> diagonals are yubn, by the way
21:52:55 <alise> pikhq: Hmm. Clearly you aren't sorting sufficiently.
21:53:13 <alise> pikhq: what is the headers = line in .quodlibet/config?
21:54:01 <pikhq> headers = ~#disc ~#track ~title~version ~album~discsubtitle artist ~#length
21:54:24 <alise> What is your sort column in quodlibet?
21:54:32 <alise> pikhq: also, how are your albums tagged, wrt. discnumber?
21:54:42 <alise> I think that with MusicBrainz, the easiest thing is just to let it put the disc number in the title.
21:55:01 <pikhq> alise: If there are multiple discs in the album, there's a discnumber tag.
21:55:19 <alise> pikhq: But Picard can put it in the album tag.
21:55:21 <alise> pikhq: Alternatively, close QL and substitute ~album~discnumber~discsubtitle... you may have better luck.
21:55:28 <alise> (You can't edit the file while QL is open; it'll overwrite it on quit.)
21:55:51 <alise> The display is a little bit ugly -- "Foo - 1 - The Amazing Disc" -- but it should sort correctly.
21:56:50 <pikhq> I set it to sort *by disc* and it fucking sorts wrong.
21:56:54 <pikhq> HOW DO YOU FAIL THAT BADLY
21:57:06 <pikhq> SORTING IS NOT THAT FUCKING HARD
21:57:23 <pikhq> On the other hand, it is now sorting with a different order.
21:57:32 <pikhq> Which makes less sense.
21:58:32 <pikhq> Remove the musicbrainz_albumid tag and it all works.
21:58:38 <pikhq> Moral of the story: that tag is retarded.
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22:10:11 <Sgeo_> Thought I messed up Sokoban
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22:20:47 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
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22:35:27 <alise> cpressey the ... something ending with essey
22:37:41 <cpressey> "Marking an item as out-of-band allows the creation of monads in functional evaluations. More automatism will be introduced in future, but scripters can have monads by assigning the oob status to complex objects and perform out-of-band processing on them. " -- http://www.falconpl.org/project_docs/core/funset_oob_support.html
22:38:15 <Sgeo_> My dad's being nutty
22:38:38 <alise> That's ... unusual ... ?
22:39:06 <cpressey> alise: Short version: Falcon makes me laugh.
22:39:26 <alise> cpressey: also, *Bear Wrestling
22:39:39 <cpressey> Bear Wrestling makes me laugh.
22:39:55 <alise> cpressey: I'm from PETA. Hi.
22:40:28 <cpressey> Like from Disneyworld, y'know?
22:40:35 <alise> I said "PETR", not "PETA". Yeah, I know, they sound alike.
22:40:48 <alise> Please come with me.
22:41:23 <cpressey> Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Country_Bear_Jamboree
22:41:33 <alise> People for the Ethical Treatment of Robots.
22:42:03 <alise> I'll show you a fair cop... MEET THIS POLICEMAN.
22:42:08 <alise> He's here to arrest you for robot bear cruelty.
22:42:13 <alise> Or, rather, the enjoyment thereof.
22:42:48 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
22:50:51 <alise> cpressey: I hereby reverse my opinion of NetHack, btw.
22:51:47 <alise> Well, "like"; I hate its guts (especially the RNG), but, you know...
22:51:57 * alise kicks off his 5435th game
22:52:09 <alise> Not ... enjoy, as such ...
22:52:23 * alise starts seriously considering the possibility that a roguelike is controlling his mind
22:52:44 <cpressey> You have acquired an addiction, I was just going to say...
22:53:01 <alise> -- on a more serious note, no, i do like it now
22:53:05 <alise> Probably "not dying" helped.
22:54:24 <alise> If you aren't here in a few turns, Felix, I'm leaving you behind.
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23:07:30 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:08:29 <cpressey> oerjan: There seem to be undecidable questions about reflective finite automata.
23:08:38 -!- Sgeo has joined.
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23:08:59 <Sgeo> A "oReflection!
23:09:00 <cpressey> Reflective meaning, it can examine itself.
23:09:35 <oerjan> oh it's own "source code" then?
23:09:41 <cpressey> Like, I dunno, it has a cursor that can travel around the transition table, and it can read its own states and transitions off of it.
23:10:30 <cpressey> Because I can write: if (this_automaton_accepts()) then reject(); else accept();
23:11:01 <cpressey> Of course, this may be some kind of illusion
23:11:13 <oerjan> um that sounds wrong. reading your own source code isn't enough to decide if you accept
23:11:34 <alise> and if you simulated yourself you'd end up looking at yourself again
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23:11:51 <nooga> i can't pick up things
23:12:00 <alise> nooga: in nethack?
23:12:04 <alise> i hope you have autopickup off
23:12:12 <alise> severely restricted
23:12:20 <cpressey> oerjan: Well, right, but it can't do that. OK, that's not "undecidable" so much as it is "undecidable by finite automaton".
23:13:00 <cpressey> Sry it was alise who said that
23:13:06 <alise> nooga: , picks up, anyway.
23:13:18 <oerjan> well _that's_ not very surprising, really
23:13:53 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: Zzzz).
23:15:59 <cpressey> oerjan: ... yeah. Well, back to the drawing board
23:16:08 * oerjan declares the logs too long to read again
23:16:24 <Sgeo> Aww, Sokodog is dead :(
23:19:09 <alise> Sgeo: I'm doing well this game!
23:19:12 <alise> BUT SOKODOG IS NOT.
23:19:26 <Sgeo> You stole my pet name???
23:19:37 <alise> /still/ on sokoban?
23:19:42 <Sgeo> I had to go afk
23:19:50 <alise> also, soko+dog is hardly something you can own :P
23:21:04 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: New quit message. Entering 2006 in style.).
23:21:16 <Sgeo> Well, at least the precious " wasn't eaten by a rock mole
23:21:37 <Sgeo> And at least my laptop's not losing power, causing me to lose the gamestate entirely
23:22:01 <alise> HEY NOW THAT'S A SENSITIVE ISSUE
23:22:33 <Sgeo> Hmm, I should clear out Soko
23:22:37 <alise> @########y##········##
23:22:40 <Sgeo> There's a lot of stuff of unknown value
23:22:44 <Sgeo> Do you havea blindfold?
23:22:52 <Sgeo> Or unihorn? Or carrot?
23:22:52 <alise> You feel agile! You must have been working on your reflexes. ;; after 100.
23:23:05 <Sgeo> Do you mind being blind?
23:23:10 <Sgeo> Wait, yellow or black?
23:24:28 <Sgeo> Ooh, /polymorph
23:25:07 <alise> Does #monster last even after you change back?
23:25:16 <Sgeo> I think #monster varies
23:25:27 <Sgeo> But for lycanthropy, the pets stay tame
23:25:49 <alise> How long until I unwerewolf?
23:26:34 <alise> It seems permanent ...
23:27:17 <alise> Sgeo: just waiting doesn't help, does it?
23:28:00 <Sgeo> I think you'll turn back to @-form eventually, but not de-lycanthropize
23:28:09 <alise> will praying cure it?
23:28:12 <Sgeo> DON'T YOU DARE STEAL MY WAND, MONKEY
23:28:16 <Sgeo> I think so, not sure
23:28:40 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Reboot).
23:32:18 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:33:55 <alise> Sgeo: gimme dat bag
23:34:07 <Sgeo> This is my inventory
23:34:23 <Sgeo> I'm looting a chest
23:34:40 <Sgeo> Putting some junk away
23:34:59 <alise> i thought you had a bag
23:35:05 <alise> you can use chests to put things in
23:35:06 <alise> only now considered that
23:35:57 <Sgeo> Are all these fruits rotton?
23:37:13 <cpressey> I am totally missing out on this NetHack craze I guess
23:37:43 <Sgeo> Why'd my pet die?
23:37:59 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:38:01 <Sgeo> My useless Sokopussy
23:38:14 <alise> cpressey: Apparently watching me infects everyone else.
23:38:28 <alise> Although I'm rather boring before I get to... well, around Sokoban time.
23:41:55 <Sgeo> Dangit, I think I used up that poly wand
23:42:09 <alise> Fuck you and your Amulet of Reflection!
23:42:25 <Sgeo> alise, Soko can also hold BoH
23:43:02 <Sgeo> My polymorph got a completely useless cure blindness spell
23:44:46 <oerjan> is that useless? i get this impression y'all are getting blind a lot
23:45:00 <Sgeo> I have a unihorn, which cures blindness easily
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23:50:22 -!- Flonk_ has changed nick to Flonk.
23:53:35 <Sgeo> alise, check out all my new spells!
23:55:29 <Sgeo> Gonna go make some more without regards to sensibility
23:56:20 <Sgeo> OOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHH
23:56:22 <Sgeo> Charm Monster!
23:57:20 -!- Flonk has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.8/20100722155716]).
23:58:37 <Sgeo> Gonna save here and relax
00:22:57 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
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00:27:08 <cpressey> Well, the reflective version of (what I was talking about) still does apply to Turing machines, at least. It's just a formulation of the HP where the input is "me" instead of "another machine like me".
00:28:09 <cpressey> Also, Eightebed is nearing completion. I have the runtime support built, I think, I just need to test it.
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00:50:12 <zzo38> Do you ever use inverted logic to make your programs more efficient?
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01:24:58 <pikhq> I CAN FIX ALL THAT IS WRONG WITH THE MUSIC PLAYING ON HERE
01:25:08 <pikhq> Rockbox supports SDL.
01:25:35 <pikhq> I'm quite satisfied with music playing on my desktop.
01:25:49 <pikhq> And Rockbox is not bad for portable playing. A bit rough UI-wise, but not bad.
01:26:22 <pikhq> Pixi can run it natively, as well.
01:26:32 <zzo38> I am writing a program with SDL, now.
01:27:38 <pikhq> Now to bother getting the cross compiler.
01:29:11 <zzo38> Do you know what the sample rate is of a PC speaker?
01:32:07 <alise> <zzo38> Do you ever use inverted logic to make your programs more efficient?
01:32:09 <zzo38> It should seem that a program that emulates it should ideally use only sample rates which are either a multiple of the PC speaker rate or a factor of the PC speaker rate.
01:33:03 <zzo38> alise: By inverted logic like that, I mean storing various boolean and bit fields in the inverted way than normal, in some cases but not all cases.
01:33:08 -!- Wamanuz2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:33:49 <zzo38> (Sort of like how electronic circuits sometimes do; they might put a bar over the signal name or put a circle on the pin in the diagram)
01:35:02 <zzo38> In CZZT, the video_mem.flash_state variable is toggled between 0x7F and 0xFF
01:35:23 <zzo38> (Where 0x7F means blinking text is displayed, and 0xFF means blinking text is hidden.)
01:36:19 <zzo38> Hopefully, does this way of storing the values makes sense to you, or not?
01:40:52 <zeotrope> so 1 means block the option, 0 means unblocked?
01:41:05 <zeotrope> just redefining the use of boolean values
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01:41:33 <zzo38> zeotrope: Depending on which way is more efficient you might use 0 for blocked or 1 for blocked, it depends on the program.
01:42:48 -!- wareya has joined.
01:42:58 <zzo38> In the blinking text case, however, normal boolean values (0 and 1) are not used, instead 0xFF and 0x7F are used, and there is a reason for that
02:11:50 <augur> http://i.imgur.com/7s5jc.jpg
02:11:55 <augur> this is the greatest thing every, i think
02:20:22 <alise> augur: i love the best party
02:20:35 <augur> alise: i cant disagree
02:21:16 <augur> i feel its like what simon pegg's political party would be like if he had one
02:21:29 <alise> the great thing is
02:21:46 <augur> i get the feeling that icelanders are some of the most care free nutballers on the planet
02:21:51 <alise> i bet it'll do a world of good for reykjavík
02:21:55 <alise> since he's actually, you know
02:22:03 <augur> http://www.grapevine.is/Home/
02:22:19 <augur> theres a fuckin article titled Grand Old Aunt Bjork
02:22:42 <augur> an editorial with a guy yawning widemouthedly saying SO LONG SUCKERS!
02:23:19 <augur> theres breaking news about a concert hall on fire
02:23:29 <augur> i dont know if these guys give a damn or not
02:23:32 <alise> i just wish that they had more ... people
02:23:39 <augur> i feel like they realized their country basically imploded
02:23:53 <augur> and realized, hey, our country imploded, but nothing is any worse
02:24:05 <augur> it was all in our heads in the first place
02:25:45 <alise> augur: where is that mayor's address from?
02:25:56 <augur> the print version of the link i just gave
02:27:54 <alise> i think ... i think i want to buy this paper regularly
02:28:11 <alise> "Improve your feeling of self-worth by joining our prestigious mailing list. It’s free, yet with a veneer of exclusivity and ridiculous overpricing unmatched on the internet."
02:28:28 <alise> link me to the specific article?
02:28:37 <augur> its like their country imploded, and they realized it didnt matter
02:28:42 <augur> i dont have the link to the article. :|}
02:28:50 <augur> what are you, blind
02:28:54 <alise> it has text antialiasing
02:28:56 <alise> windows text antialiasing
02:29:09 <alise> it has windows subpixel antialiasing
02:29:17 <augur> i dont know where its from on the site then
02:29:18 <alise> and little pixel icons
02:29:21 <alise> in the bottom-right
02:29:23 <alise> augur: possibly form a pdf
02:29:27 <alise> due to the text flowing
02:29:40 <alise> multi-column is a bitch - or horrific - on the web obvs
02:29:53 <alise> it's definitely not html.
02:34:06 <alise> Sgeo: X_X stealing from/attacking Izchak is apparently considered "extremely poor form"
02:34:17 <alise> That's ... pretty retarded
02:38:16 <Sgeo> Would probably be worse if your character's name was "Cancer"
02:43:00 * alise tries to talk about ais523's experience with Mathematica in #nethack without actually mentioning his name
02:43:04 <alise> It's like juggling, only painful.
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02:45:05 <nooga> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalek
02:45:38 <alise> I know what a Dalek is.
02:45:43 <nooga> Dalek as a part of British culture
02:46:41 <nooga> "Hiding behind the sofa whenever the Daleks appear" has been cited as an element of British cultural identity
02:46:49 <augur> i think the whole country of iceland is going through some sort of collective enlightenment, alise
02:46:54 <nooga> 2008 survey indicated that 9 out of 10 British children were able to identify a Dalek correctly.
02:47:12 <augur> i think its like one of those zen tales about the pupil reaching enlightenment through some absurdist situation
02:47:17 <augur> i think this is iceland right now
02:48:09 <augur> they've all just been shoved into a socio-political koan of epic proportion and they're either all going insane, or all having some sort of great awakening that will end with the country vanishing in some sort of mass ascension to a higher plane of existence
02:48:25 * alise names his next nethack character Iceland
02:49:47 <nooga> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Radio_Times_Vote_Dalek_cover.jpg
02:50:17 <alise> the RT is one of my favourite british publications :p
02:50:20 <alise> and not for the tv listings, either
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02:50:52 <augur> nooga: the daleks are obviously behind the BNP
02:51:02 <nooga> even i can catch the subtle joke of that cover
02:51:32 <alise> it's 2005, it's not a bnp reference
02:51:40 <nooga> augur: i can imagine them ... "EX TER MI NATE"
02:51:40 <alise> ok so the bnp existed then but still
02:51:57 <augur> alise: i didnt think it was
02:52:04 <augur> i was making a snipe at the BNP
02:52:28 <alise> i was referring to nooga
02:52:45 <alise> Sgeo: the way you act in #nethack you'd think we're married, lol
02:52:49 <alise> half of your lines have the word alise in them :P
02:53:26 <augur> apparently the BNP got 14.6% of the vote in Barking this year
02:53:34 <augur> the name is quite appropriate.
02:55:28 <augur> oddly, Nick Griffin is a proponent of peak oil preparedness
02:56:13 <alise> because it's the arabs
02:56:32 <augur> American far right people think peak oil is a liberal lie
02:56:47 <augur> preparedness in that he thinks peak oil is a serious threat to our civilization
02:57:16 <augur> but he thinks global warming is a lie
02:57:30 <augur> its odd, because in america politicians are either believers of both, or deniers of both
02:57:32 <nooga> i've heard that russians are still finding new oil deposits
02:57:35 <augur> you never find a split
02:57:40 <augur> nooga: oh they certainly are
02:57:44 <augur> but that doesn't mean a think
02:58:02 <augur> there's this thing called ERoEI
02:58:17 <nooga> + we've got shittons of earth gas under Poland
02:58:28 <nooga> sadly, we cannot mine it
02:58:29 <augur> you can find new oil deposits all you want, but if the net energy returned from that deposit is less than the energy cost of pumping it out of the ground, refining it, etc.
02:58:35 <augur> then its a net loss, not a net gain
02:58:42 <augur> so new oil doesnt mean theres no peak
02:59:05 <augur> plus, there's also the problem that our oil consumption doubles every 40 years or so
02:59:28 <augur> which means in the next 40 years we're going to have to use as much oil as we have in all of history prior to now
02:59:34 <nooga> icelanders should be happy
02:59:50 <augur> i think they are, if their politicians are anything to go by
03:00:09 <CakeProphet> I don't believe in peak oil because I don't believe in mathematics!
03:00:17 <nooga> they can produce hydrogen using geothermal energy and turn it back to water while driving their eco-friendly, hydrogen-powered cars
03:00:29 <augur> cars are a stupid idea anyway
03:00:56 <alise> CARS CARRYING OTHER CARS
03:01:02 <alise> I think I have made my point.
03:01:06 <alise> CARS: AWESOME because they NEST.
03:01:33 <augur> alise: CARS CARRYING CDRS
03:02:15 <CakeProphet> so a Prussian walks into a bar with two arabs, and they have to change a lightbulb. What's the punch line? don't ask me.
03:02:28 <alise> IS AN IBM PC INTEGRATED
03:04:47 <nooga> i just imagined alise as a dalek, screeching these words written in capitals
03:04:56 <alise> GOOD NEWS EVERYONE
03:05:18 <alise> I INVENTED A MACHINE THAT CREATES A HORRIBLE MUTANT VOICE IN YOUR HEAD!
03:06:09 <nooga> time to sleep, 'night
03:06:15 <Gregor> alise: That worked really well.
03:06:41 <Gregor> alise: Except the horrible mutant voice was Farnsworth's, so it really wasn't that horrible-mutanty.
03:06:42 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
03:08:41 <alise> Gregor: BUT WAS IT ADDITIONALLY DALEK
03:09:08 <alise> (IT IS ALREADY WELL-KNOWN THAT FARNSWORTH'S VOICE CAN BE RECALLED BY A NORMALLY CASED VERSION OF THE ABOVE STATEMENTS; HOWEVER ITS EFFECTIVENESS WHEN UPPERCASED, THUS CREATING A DALEK TONE, WAS BEFOREHAND UNKNOWN)
03:28:25 <CakeProphet> and several modules worth of boilerplate code is now no longer necessary.
03:33:55 <alise> Is this your way of telling us something, Gregor?
03:34:06 * Gregor stabs alise with a fork.
03:34:22 <alise> I'm not very tasty...
03:37:04 <pikhq> alise: WE SHALL EXTERMINATE!
03:38:12 <alise> I GOTSA BE UPS AT 9AM LOLS
03:39:14 <Sgeo> I've never seen Doctor Who
03:39:31 <pikhq> Sgeo: Okay. 2 years should fix that.
03:39:58 <pikhq> (1 serial a day, you'll finish the series in 2 years!)
03:40:32 <alise> pikhq: If Sgeo has even the mildest allergic reaction to either cheese or camp, he can just skip straight to Tennant XD
03:41:03 <pikhq> alise: Okay, fair enough.
03:41:14 <pikhq> Classic Who is nearly powered by cheese and camp, after all.
03:41:19 <Sgeo> Um, I don't seem to have a severe allergy to soap-operaness, considering that I've seen SGU ep 14 (or 15, I forgot) and still going
03:41:56 <alise> Sgeo: You know, Gregor is the only person so far to have said that SGU is a soap.
03:42:57 <alise> Admittedly, coppro is the only one who would be able to give an opinion.
03:43:18 <pikhq> alise: From what I've *seen* of SGU, it's quite soapy.
03:43:29 <pikhq> Of course, I was not able to finish the premiere due to that.
03:43:41 <alise> Gregor: What is 8395345x7843574, and also if you took more than 1 ms to work out the previous question, prove ZFC is inconsistent.
03:43:44 <alise> Gregor: What is 8395345x7843574, and also if you took more than 1 ms to work out the previous question, prove ZFC is inconsistent?
03:43:57 <alise> pikhq: The pilot ... wasn't soapy at all
03:44:25 <Sgeo> Even SG-1 showed the characters' pasts on occasion
03:44:44 <alise> It's not like character building and interaction is all soapy ..........
03:44:55 <Sgeo> I know that's not really "soap", but it's what I'm mostly noticing
03:45:36 <pikhq> alise: The pilot, I mostly reacted to "ZOMG ITS NOT SG1". And then I tried giving it another shot, gagged, and left.
03:45:39 <Sgeo> Maybe I should watch a soap opera so I know what soapiness is
03:45:51 <alise> pikhq: Well, yeah. It isn't SG-1.
03:45:58 <pikhq> They should stop beating that dead horse.
03:45:59 <alise> SG-1 is notable for having something like zero character development. :P
03:46:07 <alise> pikhq: What, Stargate?
03:46:10 <Sgeo> Hey, Sam was gullible once1
03:46:18 <alise> Stargate's a pretty solid franchise.
03:46:24 <alise> Atlantis was... not as good as SG-1.
03:46:29 <alise> The animated series was apparently unspeakable.
03:46:31 <Sgeo> I liked Atlantis
03:46:36 <alise> And SGU may very well suck, from what people say about how it develops.
03:46:39 <Sgeo> Never saw Infinity
03:46:40 <pikhq> The last 2 seasons of SG-1 were pretty meh.
03:46:41 <Gregor> SG-1 did do a pretty impressive job of having all the premise for character development, with no actual development.
03:46:42 <alise> But the movie and SG-1 were great!
03:46:58 <alise> SG-1 was like Voyager, except without only one possible episode format, and not shit.
03:47:06 <alise> So it wasn't really like Voyager... at all...
03:47:18 <alise> Incidentally, SG-1's name expands to "Stargate Stargate One".
03:47:18 <pikhq> So... The *potential* of Voyager without any of the *failure* of Voyager.
03:47:22 <alise> Just thought you might like to know.
03:47:23 <Sgeo> SG-1 did not take place on an isolated ship
03:47:46 <pikhq> Sgeo: Nor did Voyager.
03:48:16 <Sgeo> Well, I guess they're both in the same boat of learning about the universe outside of what they know for the first time
03:48:23 <alise> Come on, you can't analyse Voyager.
03:48:28 <Sgeo> All the SG series (except Infinity?) are like that, really
03:48:31 <alise> It's not ABOUT anything.
03:48:45 <alise> Sgeo: Infinity isn't canon, anyway.
03:48:55 <Sgeo> I should watch it
03:49:04 <pikhq> alise: It's about trying to be TNG Seasons 8+ and failing horribly.
03:49:06 <Sgeo> If I enjoy it, I know my "bad fiction" detector is broken
03:49:36 <Sgeo> I've suspected the detector has been broken for quite a long while
03:49:36 <alise> pikhq: It achieves in pure shittiness what DS9 achieved in absolute boredom.
03:49:38 <pikhq> alise: Not even joking. Their season numbers start at 8.
03:49:55 <Sgeo> pikhq, wait what?
03:50:08 <pikhq> Sgeo: Production code season numbers.
03:50:38 <pikhq> It really, truly is an attempt at doing TNG seasons 8+ and failing horribly.
03:50:58 <alise> DOCTOR WHOOOOO! (HEY!)
03:51:14 <alise> This interjection brought to you by the Timelords.
03:51:44 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/3e/Doctorin'_The_Tardis.jpg
03:52:32 <Sgeo> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Ptitleupg47ww5
03:52:38 <Sgeo> (Warning: TV Tropes)
03:52:53 <alise> It's almost 4am; I have to be up at 9am.
03:53:08 <alise> Yes, I know what Five Minute is.
03:53:20 <alise> (The Voyager and TNG ones are the only good ones, btw.)
03:53:34 * pikhq is looking at a cast photo of Voyager.
03:53:44 <alise> pikhq: Also known as "used toilet paper".
03:53:51 <pikhq> You know what would fix Voyager in a few moments?
03:53:55 <pikhq> Tom Paris *with a beard*.
03:54:03 <pikhq> Much like Riker's beard saved TNG.
03:54:27 <alise> pikhq: But Paris would be hideous with a beard. Riker was SUAVE AND HANDSOME.
03:54:32 <alise> In fact, bearded Paris is now making me vomit.
03:56:17 <pikhq> alise: http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/File:William_Riker,_2364-2.jpg Okay, seriously. Do you think, just from this picture, that a beard would look good?
03:56:43 <pikhq> It's about as face-punch-inducing as Paris.
03:56:59 <alise> Dear god, he's even more hideous in that pose.
03:57:05 <alise> ...he did something to his eyes the next season
03:57:11 <alise> his eye sockets retracted slightly
03:57:19 <alise> pikhq: His chin... dear god.
03:57:23 <alise> Delete that image.
03:57:24 <pikhq> No, he *just* grew a beard.
03:57:40 <pikhq> He is a man who absolutely, positively must wear a beard at all times.
03:57:58 <pikhq> I should note that Frakes has worn a beard since.
03:58:25 <alise> He didn't grow the beard for Trek :P
03:59:02 <pikhq> No, he grew it between seasons; I know.
03:59:16 <pikhq> But still; he must never ever shave.
04:00:13 <alise> Star Trek modification idea: Exactly like normal, except Riker's head is flipped upside down. Always.
04:00:18 <alise> Do not question this.
04:01:40 <alise> Also, occasionally Picard's head flips upside down and back again a few times in succession, after he finishes talking.
04:03:51 <pikhq> You seem to be going for a Salad Fingers vibe.
04:04:04 <alise> Hmm, unintentionally.
04:05:00 <Gregor> http://codu.org/tmp/teddynom.gif
04:05:16 <alise> Now make the teddy evil.
04:09:05 <alise> if wedding cakes are evil
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05:03:57 <Gregor> I MISSED THE ONE-YEAR ANNIVERSARY OF LONELYDINO.COM :( :( :(
05:05:22 <Gregor> But at least there are finally new comics again :)
05:06:01 <Gregor> And I made this excuse for why there haven't been any comics posted in about a month: "We're back! Sorry for the delay, I was busy writing imaginary Ryan North wedding invitations to myself and then crying myself to sleep."
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05:15:08 <Gregor> Last I was told, Ryan North still reads the T-Rex is Lonely RSS feed :P
05:17:30 <Sgeo> How about selling me a SDSM?
05:26:13 <Gregor> If I had to guess, I would say Quadrescence was going to build a computer, then didn't.
05:27:09 <Quadrescence> Gregor: yeah, I was going to have a workstation for some graphics shit but bla bla
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05:32:24 <pikhq> David Firth has made things for TV
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09:17:48 <Vorpal> I seem to have random DNS failures... How strange...
09:29:43 <olsner> how random? what's the entropy of your DNS failures?
09:30:01 <olsner> they're probably just pseudo-random anyway
09:30:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Or maybe THEY don't want you to know the domain names.
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11:32:30 <Vorpal> <olsner> how random? what's the entropy of your DNS failures? <-- sometimes resolving returns NXDOMAIN when it shouldn't. If you try again it works.
11:33:06 <Vorpal> dns failure on stuff like google.com feels really strange
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14:23:16 <cpressey> You'll never get away with it, you know!
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14:33:19 <derdon> Phantom_Hoover: no, never heard of him
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14:38:00 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what was the intended word?
14:38:53 <Sgeo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dord
14:40:27 <Phantom_Hoover> To what extent can the BNF be considered equivalent to algebraic data?
15:01:52 <zeotrope> Phantom_Hoover: BNF binds expressions to symbols, is recursive
15:02:09 <zeotrope> Phantom_Hoover: apart from substitution what manipulation can you do with it?
15:06:28 <Phantom_Hoover> But I think you can represent the abstract structure with algebraic types.
15:13:59 <Vorpal> zeotrope, Are you new here? Or long time idler?
15:15:09 * Phantom_Hoover loves the way the IO monad in Haskell is described as adding the world as an extra parameter and returning it along with the value.
15:15:53 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: if you treat the world lazily, as an infinitely large lookup table from inputs to outputs, you can actually implement it like that
15:16:48 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, I think that's basically how I did it in Lazy K.
15:17:08 <ais523> it's how Haskell does it if you replace all the monads with their definitions
15:17:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Except the lazy evaluation means that the input world and the output world don't always line up properly.
15:17:29 <ais523> err, just the one world, I mean
15:17:42 <Vorpal> I find the IO monad slightly mind bending.
15:17:54 <ais523> you run your program and it returns a lazy function which, for all possible input sequences, returns the matching output sequence
15:18:11 <Vorpal> was that directed at Phantom_Hoover or me?
15:18:19 <ais523> this function is infinitely large, but who cares, it's lazy so you only ever run a finite amount
15:18:25 <ais523> Vorpal: at the channel, really
15:18:35 <Vorpal> <ais523> you run your program and it returns a lazy function which, for all possible input sequences, returns the matching output sequence <-- it makes perfect sense
15:19:21 <Vorpal> ais523, but why does it need to be infinitely large? In what sense is it infinitely large? Code wise?
15:19:35 <ais523> you can implement it as finite code
15:19:47 <ais523> but basically you're building a lookup table, and the table itself is infinite
15:19:53 <ais523> but as it's generated programmatically, you don't care
15:20:11 <Phantom_Hoover> The id function, for instance, is finite, but it can handle infinite input and output for these purposes.
15:20:33 <Vorpal> ais523, yes I was considering the example: read one single decimal digit, return it's value + 1, on any other input just return 0.
15:22:01 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, POSIX compliant cat?
15:22:29 <Vorpal> I wonder if any esolang actually has a POSIX compliant cat... hm
15:22:54 <Vorpal> I think I could implement one in funge-98 by using FILE (to handle space issues and such)
15:23:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Someone probably has, in one of the more practical ones.
15:23:39 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well, I don't know of any other esolang that has the required command line parameter and file IO support
15:23:57 <Vorpal> though even befunge98 can't do it without the FILE fingerprint, due to how i works
15:24:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, there's always kwrap and PSOX if you can do byte IO.
15:24:24 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: if you don't care about command-line args, BF does it just fine
15:24:40 <ais523> assuming EOF=-1 and unbounded integers
15:25:03 <Vorpal> (newlines of all sorts turned into incrementing y coordinate (and resetting x coordinate), space leaving current value as it is)
15:25:30 <Vorpal> ais523, why unbounded integers? If you have byte IO + 1 you could presumably do it anyway?
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15:25:45 <ais523> but nobody uses 0..257 wrapping BF
15:25:53 <ais523> I suppose you could use a 16-bit version
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15:25:58 <ais523> which is slightly more plausilbe
15:26:21 <Vorpal> because it doesn't make sense otherwise
15:26:28 <Vorpal> considering the range of a byte is [0,255]
15:26:32 <ais523> well, it doesn't really make sense either way
15:30:38 <Phantom_Hoover> FFS WHEN I QUOTE A LET FORM THAT IS NOT A SYNTAX ERROR
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15:35:11 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, (define quote #f) ?
15:35:18 <Vorpal> that should make it stop working
15:35:29 <Vorpal> in which case it is a lot more curious
15:35:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, I did no such thing, and ' wasn't working either.
15:35:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what did you do then?
15:35:56 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh maybe it dumped you to a debugger prompt? If it has that
15:36:08 <Vorpal> I know clisp and sbcl does that sometimes
15:36:19 <fizzie> You can't (define quote #f), quote is a macro.
15:36:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, I thought it was a special form
15:36:48 <fizzie> Well, a special form, macro, whichever.
15:36:58 <fizzie> Not something you can use as an identifier, anyway.
15:37:03 <Vorpal> very big difference indeed
15:37:33 <Vorpal> because I shudder at the thought of what the implementation of a macro quote would look like
15:38:11 <fizzie> It could use some sort of implementation-specific quotation magic.
15:38:51 <Sgeo> Wow... that was a crap resolution to an awesome plotline
15:38:55 <Phantom_Hoover> zeotrope, http://pastebin.com/3uvKyqsf is that program you described, in the SKI calculus with the IO model ais summed up.
15:39:02 <Vorpal> fizzie, it probably doesn't work in clisp
15:39:11 <Vorpal> but it does in plt-r5rs
15:39:23 <fizzie> It doesn't work in the only Scheme I have here; I'm not exactly sure if R5RS speaks of the case.
15:39:28 <fizzie> *** ERROR IN (console)@1.9 -- Macro name can't be used as a variable: quote
15:40:03 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, don't really know CL, but considering what I know _about_ it I would be surprised if you could do it.
15:40:13 <fizzie> Anyway, I'm sure there are at least some implementations that let you define-syntax quote to something not-working, and where that will also make ' stop working, since 'foo is expanded to (quote foo) already by read.
15:40:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, which implementation is that?
15:40:25 <fizzie> Gambit v4.4.4, it seems.
15:40:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, no, I mean CL has about 7 different functions for defining things.
15:40:39 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh yeah, defun and such, right
15:40:57 <Vorpal> unless that is elisp(?)
15:41:14 <Vorpal> presumably there is one to define functions however. Would be very strange if there wasn't
15:43:05 <fizzie> CL has that silly function/variable namespace split.
15:43:53 <fizzie> Okay, let's retroactively remove the word "silly" and substitute something inoffensive there.
15:44:23 <Vorpal> I'm no CL fan. Nor do I hate it
15:44:32 <Vorpal> so who would the flamewar be against?
15:46:21 <fizzie> Anyway, yes, R5RS does not explicitly say what should happen if you (define quote ..). The syntax for a define like that is "(define <variable> <expression>)", and the syntax for <variable> is "any <identifier> that isn't also a <syntactic keyword>".
15:46:33 <zeotrope> Vorpal: new I guess, visit from time to time
15:46:40 <zeotrope> Phantom_Hoover: what program would that be?
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15:57:48 <Phantom_Hoover> zeotrope, the one which reads a single char, then adds 1 if it's a number or returns 0 otherwise.
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16:00:39 <Vorpal> file A pathname of an input file. If no file operands are specified, the standard input shall be used. If a file is '-', the cat utility shall read from the standard input at that point in the
16:00:39 <Vorpal> sequence. The cat utility shall not close and reopen standard input when it is referenced in this way, but shall accept multiple occurrences of '-' as a file operand.
16:00:47 <Vorpal> what does "The cat utility shall not close and reopen standard input when it is referenced in this way, but shall accept multiple occurrences of '-' as a file operand." really mean?
16:00:59 <Vorpal> (yes I'm implementing POSIX cat in befunge98 now...)
16:02:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, I assume it means that it doesn't just change FD 0 to be the file it's catting.
16:03:30 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, not sure how the multiple - would work then... hm
16:04:37 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well you only end reading stdin at EOF
16:04:46 <Phantom_Hoover> You have a handle used for input, and duplicate stdin onto it when you need it.
16:05:13 <Vorpal> just wondering how that is handled from befunge
16:15:19 <Phantom_Hoover> What was that thing a while ago about OOP being a subset of closures?
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16:33:10 <Phantom_Hoover_> Does anyone particularly know why it's impossible to select text on Snopes?
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17:51:01 <zzo38> Do you know if there is any way in SDL to tell another thread to pause?
17:51:22 <ais523> I've used SDL, but not its threads
17:51:38 <ais523> but generally speaking, doing so at arbitrary points isn't safe because it can block locks in library functions, causing a deadlock
17:51:46 <ais523> instead, just set a variable that tells the other thread to sleep
17:52:17 <zzo38> Will it cause a deadlock even if it is unpaused later?
17:53:11 <ais523> the deadlock is because it deadlocks the thread that would unpause it
17:53:17 <ais523> so there's never a chance to unpause it later
17:53:29 <ais523> deadlocks are between two threads, rather than in one
17:53:44 <zzo38> O that's how it works.
17:54:00 <ais523> does anyone here know how to effectively manage a two-column look via standard HTML and CSS? Or should I resort to tables?
17:54:11 <ais523> (that is, two independent columns, not wrapping into two columns)
17:54:38 <zzo38> ais523: If you want two independent columns perhaps just use tables?
17:54:46 <zzo38> But I am not sure why you need two columns
17:54:55 <ais523> I don't need them, it just looks nicer
17:55:40 <ais523> I could just use a float, but that's bad for making the two columns equal
17:56:01 <zzo38> I always use minimal HTML, so I don't use things like that. If the user wants to look nicer, can change the color setting in browser config
17:56:41 <fizzie> Some of the new CSS N (I've forgotten which N) features was some sort of explicit multicolumn-thing support. I guess that was more wrapping-into-two-columns thing, though.
17:56:44 <zzo38> You should not use tables for the only reason to look nicer. Tables are only for putting data in rows and columns. CSS can be used if you want thing look differently
17:57:09 <fizzie> The ones I've seen have been float-driven, though.
17:57:12 <zzo38> fizzie: If it is for wrapping into two columns, is that for paged media?
17:57:49 <zzo38> (I suppose it can also be used for continuous media if it is inside of a fixed size container)
17:58:27 <fizzie> It doesn't even have to be a fixed-size container, it just puts column breaks so that the column heights are more or less equal.
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17:58:37 <Gregor-W> RE-CAPTCHA of the day: bestagan the
17:58:42 <Gregor-W> Yeah, that's totally a bestagan word.
17:59:13 <fizzie> Is it just me, or have recaptchas become somehow more difficult lately? Have all the easy ones been recognized already?
17:59:22 <Sgeo> I think I'm going to go watch some SGI
17:59:35 <zzo38> fizzie: I still suppose, it is more useful for paged media
17:59:58 <zzo38> Although, for designing documents for printing, I find TeX more useful
18:00:00 <ais523> fizzie: bots manage RECAPTCHAs with about a 30% success rate nowaday
18:00:08 <ais523> which is enough to just keep trying until one works
18:00:20 <Gregor-W> fizzie: I think it's because they're not friggin' words :P
18:00:31 <Gregor-W> To quote myself: "Is it just me, or have most of the words on RE-CAPTCHA turned into deetry bestagan nonsense?"
18:00:46 <ais523> Gregor-W: that's probably why they're hard to OCR
18:02:09 <fizzie> Yes, but I don't think they were so unwordy (or just distorted) earlier.
18:03:06 <zzo38> The other problem with CAPTCHA, is they require Javascript and images turned on (sometimes audio turned on also works), you cannot do it with plain text. Use a plain text CAPTCHA next time, it is more faster and is usable over nearly any protocol, and can be managed individually for each service (and even change it sometimes)
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18:03:51 <fizzie> ais523: Anyway, this looks like a reasonably clear un-hacky CSS two-column layout: http://matthewjamestaylor.com/blog/perfect-2-column-double-page.htm -- I've seen all kinds of Javascript trickery, but this one has just some divs (a bit more than I'd think necessary, but...) and percentage widths.
18:04:58 <Gregor-W> I like that one of the layouts is "3 column Holy Grail" :P
18:05:51 <fizzie> Even the others call themselves "perfect"; no false (or any other sort of) modesty there.
18:06:53 <zzo38> There are some uses for Javascript and images and stuff, but many web pages don't work without all that stuff, even though their intended function is not something that should require it.... sometimes these things are useful, but I think they are way overused
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18:08:07 <Sgeo> The other Stargate shows tend to introduce their alien characters in some way
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18:10:01 <zzo38> How do I emulate that PAUSE key can pause a DOS program, in SDL?
18:10:22 <ais523> pause your event loops and timers when it's pressed
18:10:40 <ais523> well, only the events that you want to pause
18:11:46 <olsner> someone mentioned my nickname!?
18:12:52 <ais523> not that I can see, recently
18:13:03 <fizzie> ais523: I think his architecture has a single SDL-driven framebuffer-handler-thread (that reads a DOS textmode framebuffer-style memory block and updates the screen based on that), and it's supposed to have the "main app" run in a single thread with as little changes to it as possible. But this is just guesswork from what I've seen here. If (a big if) it's like that, you wouldn't want to have to change the "actual app" code for the pausing part at all, if you c
18:13:11 <ais523> perhaps you have a ping on something random that someone said?
18:13:37 <ais523> fizzie: yep, you just change the event loop to implement most of it; the tricky part is handling timer callbacks
18:14:07 <fizzie> olsner: There's AnMas.. sorry, Vorpal's reply to you, about 7 hours ago.
18:14:11 <ais523> (if timers are event-based, you can just hide those events and reset the timers to deliver them a bit later)
18:17:10 <fizzie> I think (more guesswork) the point here was that the existing application is not structured around an event loop, and it might not be completely trivial to retrofit it to have one. If you just stop the SDL side, all you've managed to do is to freeze display updates. Possibly it would also stop the existing app if it tries to do any sort of IO.
18:17:16 <zzo38> I am running event polling also in the video thread......
18:17:35 <zzo38> And when paused, the display should still continue blinking for cells with color >= 0x80
18:19:06 <zzo38> Perhaps I can make it check for pause in getkey() function
18:19:37 <ais523> zzo38: that makes more sense
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18:21:13 <fizzie> If you *want* (I wouldn't advocate this), you *could* run the "actual application" in a completely separate process, set up the framebuffer memory in a shared-memory block, and then have the pause key actually send SIGSTOP/SIGCONT to the main-app process.
18:21:40 <fizzie> ais523: What, not esoteric enough? :p
18:21:43 <ais523> at least that avoids deadlocks, I suppose
18:22:04 <zzo38> Perhaps I can also write my own replacement for SDL_Delay to be used in the main program, so that when the program tries to sleep it will check if paused, too....
18:22:06 <fizzie> I sort of like it, if the aim is to make the "main app" programming environment more DOS-like.
18:22:13 <zzo38> In addition to checking during getkey()
18:22:54 <zzo38> fizzie: No, I don't think I can do that think you wouldn't advocate, it is supposed to be cross-platform to all small-endian computers
18:23:19 <fizzie> Oh, okay; right, that would be rather POSIX-only.
18:24:37 <Sgeo> It.. seems to have depicted the wormhole on one side closing before they get through on the other side
18:25:41 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover_, Stargate Infinity
18:26:09 <Sgeo> SGI is pretty universally considered to be bad
18:27:58 <zzo38> Yes the aim is making the "main app" more DOS-like, so that it more closely emulates the DOS version of ZZT. (The DOS ZZT was written in Turbo Pascal. I am writing my program in C, so, it also involves sometimes emulating Pascal style strings)
18:28:43 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover_: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZZT
18:30:30 <zzo38> (My program is called CZZT and is written in Enhanced CWEB. I do not have the original source-codes of ZZT (apparently nobody does), so I have to just make experiment and guess and think of how it was originally programmed to cause the strange things it did. My program CZZT is also a book.)
18:36:06 <zzo38> Some strange things in ZZT (all of which I plan to support, by reimplementing the program in a similar way such that they will work the same way), are: The position of the :RESTART label is always considered the second character of the program. #BECOME has the default color of the floor underneath the object. Black keys give you 256 gems.
18:39:40 <Vorpal> <fizzie> olsner: There's AnMas.. sorry, Vorpal's reply to you, about 7 hours ago. <-- ?
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18:39:57 <Vorpal> so now my POSIX cat in befunge almost works
18:40:11 <Vorpal> only thing left is proper file handling for catting files
18:40:28 <fizzie> Vorpal: olsner was asking who mentioned his name.
18:40:32 <Vorpal> it handles argument parsing like "cfunge ./posixcat.b98 foo - bar - quux" correctly
18:40:44 <Vorpal> and catting from stdin works
18:41:08 <Vorpal> well actually there is a bug if the first argument is of length 1
18:41:23 <Vorpal> I think the starting offset for scanning args must be miscalculated
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18:42:27 <Vorpal> by the way it uses both STRN and JSTR get :)
18:43:49 <cpressey> <Phantom_Hoover> To what extent can the BNF be considered equivalent to algebraic data?
18:43:55 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover_: a large one imo
18:44:10 <Vorpal> now that is strange... when I substract 1 from the counter I get off by one in the other direction
18:45:19 <Vorpal> obviously the answer should be between these two: http://sprunge.us/NMbV
18:45:30 <Vorpal> (the 8 is from the filename)
19:14:25 <zzo38> Are there open source pinball games for computer that support wii-remote, so that you can nudge at any direction and magnitude?
19:15:28 <Phantom_Hoover_> zzo38, not as far as I know, but I once got FlightGear working with a Wii Remote.
19:16:56 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover_: Some people complain that you cannot control nudge accurately enough for flipperless pinball games on computer
19:17:53 <Phantom_Hoover_> zzo38, well, the CWiiD drivers expose the remote as a joystick device, so you could probably do something with that.
19:18:50 <zzo38> Visual Pinball could probably support it if there was a ActiveX object for wii remote, but that is not cross-platform (it doesn't even work on Wine).
19:22:10 <fizzie> I mentioned this before, but since it's sort-of related: if you stick a PS3 dualshock3 controller into a computer's USB port, it is recognized as a HID joystick with 28 axes, since most of the buttons are pressure-sensitive. You could use those (as well as the accelerometer axes) for pinball-nudge-control too. (I guess best would be to map the accelerometer to nudge, and buttons to flippers, though probably the controller is easier to accidentally bump than a p
19:23:43 <fizzie> A pinball-table-sized controller, with a monitor embedded in it: what a great product idea. I'm sure you could sell... not many of them.
19:27:49 <zzo38> For a flipperless game, the buttons can then do nothing (except possibly, start/pause)
19:29:52 <zzo38> I do not have a PS3. But it would be able to do these things, I guess! (I will never buy a PS3 until they put back two things they have removed: support for PS2 softwares, and OtherOS feature.)
19:30:41 <fizzie> I don't have a PS3 either: I bought the controller separately, for use with my phone. (In addition to USB, the controller also speaks Bluetooth, and the phone's keyboard is horrible for console-gamery.)
19:31:09 <Vorpal> success: http://sprunge.us/PBSX
19:31:27 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover_: The N900.
19:31:38 <zzo38> fizzie: O! OK! So, you can buy the controller separately
19:31:50 <Vorpal> unless someone knows of any other one I will claim this as the first cat(1) implemented in an esolang
19:32:02 <fizzie> zzo38: Yes, though I think there was some sort of warning labels about "only use this thing with a PS3" on it.
19:32:27 <zzo38> They really ought to fix those 2 features of the PS3, they will make it a lot more popular like that.
19:32:31 <Vorpal> ah found a tiny bug hm
19:33:05 <Vorpal> just a off by one in alignment of code
19:33:14 <Phantom_Hoover_> "If you use this controller on something other than a PS3 we own your soul"
19:33:57 <zzo38> Perhaps the warning label is for warranty purposes, or whatever else
19:34:20 <Vorpal> first POSIX cat http://sprunge.us/IEWP
19:34:54 <Vorpal> hm *puts in gpl header in that file*
19:35:01 <Vorpal> I think that is a first in befunge code too!
19:35:17 <zzo38> Do you think the PlayStation 3 would be more popular if they added back in those two features which have been removed since it first came out?
19:35:39 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, it is under copyright I guess? Since that is the default
19:35:55 <Vorpal> all rights reserved in other words
19:36:42 <Vorpal> here is one with GPL in it: http://sprunge.us/EaJB
19:37:00 <Vorpal> copied from cfunge, forgot to fix year
19:37:17 <zzo38> How do I turn off the mouse wheel? I don't like it
19:37:54 <cpressey> zzo38: Just take it out of the cage!
19:38:54 <zzo38> No, I mean the mouse wheel on the middle mouse button
19:49:38 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, here http://sprunge.us/OEhC
19:49:44 <Vorpal> cpressey, you might be interested in that too
19:49:54 <Vorpal> somewhat messy, but that is alright for befunge-98 I think
19:50:17 <Vorpal> cpressey, anyway, do you know of any other POSIX compliant cat in befunge-98?
19:52:13 <Vorpal> cpressey, know of one in any other esolang?
19:52:26 <cpressey> Vorpal: Why are you celebrating my ignorance?
19:52:55 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, if you mean #!/bin/cat that won't work
19:53:01 <Vorpal> since it can't give command line args to cat
19:53:27 <Vorpal> cpressey, no I'm not, I'm celebrating the high probability of being first with it
19:53:38 <Vorpal> cpressey, since you are likely to know of things fungish
19:53:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, so what Cat?
19:54:00 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, that was after I did it however
19:54:03 <Vorpal> so I would still be first
19:54:19 <Vorpal> also if it is HQ9+ish then *shrug*
19:54:24 <Phantom_Hoover_> Vorpal, no, because the Cat cat has been on my system for ages.
19:54:41 <Vorpal> ais523, perhaps there is a cat(1) in INTERCAL?
19:55:01 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, you said you just invented it
19:55:27 <Phantom_Hoover_> Vorpal, no, I just didn't realise that it was the Cat cat.
19:55:33 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, so describe it
19:55:39 <cpressey> Answer carefully, Phantom_Hoover_, Vorpal has a lot at stake here.
19:56:51 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, so post the interpreter then.
19:57:15 <Vorpal> you just constructed a new HQ9+ish language you know
19:58:30 <Vorpal> anyway, my posixcat.b98 is, to the extent of my knowledge, the first POSIX compliant cat(1) that has been _announced_ in this channel
19:58:35 <Phantom_Hoover_> Well, I *think* #!/bin/sh\shift\exec cat $@EoF is sufficient.
19:58:49 <Vorpal> and sure, I could always claim I invented befunge93 before cpressey did but never announced it :P
19:59:04 <Vorpal> rather unlikely though, considering my age
19:59:05 <Phantom_Hoover_> Of course, it assumes that its first argument is its source file, and that the rest are the arguments to the program.
19:59:40 <Vorpal> is that supposed to make sense?
20:00:02 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, well I can tell you that your implementation is flawed
20:00:14 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, spaces in filenames
20:01:39 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, you must now recover the 5 PEDANTS from various places around Hyrule!
20:02:00 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, by "$@"
20:02:09 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, you didn't get the reference?
20:02:30 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, that would be "$*" I believe
20:02:48 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, well, still I beat you to it
20:03:12 <Vorpal> Gregor-W, do you know any previous POSIX cat(1) in an esolang?
20:03:23 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, it hadn't been announced publically
20:03:36 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, which is what counts
20:03:50 <cpressey> Is there a word that combines "hilarious" with "makes me want to claw my eyes out"?
20:03:56 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, link to relevant log at tunes.orhg
20:04:11 <Phantom_Hoover_> Just because noöne *realised* that it was the Cat cat doesn't mean it wasn't/
20:04:15 <Vorpal> cpressey, why do you need it?
20:04:24 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, sure it does.
20:04:32 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, you are just being silly you know :P
20:04:36 <cpressey> cpressey: I'm writing a letter to my aunt
20:04:44 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, and I'm 99% certain you wrote that after I wrote mine
20:04:47 <cpressey> Damn, now I'm talking to myself.
20:05:22 <Phantom_Hoover_> Vorpal, no, someone else wrote it years before you were born.
20:05:46 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, and [citation needed]
20:05:57 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, now you don't make sense at all
20:06:51 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, not all sh programs are cat, so that is not true
20:07:20 <Vorpal> now I have other things to do, just stop being silly, I'm not taking this trolling any more :P
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20:09:02 <cpressey> Gregor-W: Do you use JACK in your Rosegarden setup? If not, that may be where I'm going awry.
20:09:09 <Phantom_Hoover_> Vorpal, wait. The reference implementation is at http://pastebin.com/M3LticgA
20:09:47 <Phantom_Hoover_> To run a Cat program, type ./Cat <program-name> [<args>...]
20:10:28 <cpressey> Also, I wish Fluidsynth had a "test" command of some sort. I mean, it exposes a CLI and everything, and that seems an obvious feature.
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20:14:29 <Vorpal> cpressey, testing what?
20:15:05 <cpressey> Vorpal: To test fluidsynth's supposed ability to make sounds
20:15:42 <Vorpal> cpressey, um, but how? By generating a file with a test tune?
20:16:02 <Vorpal> like, the opening bars of some symphony by Mozart
20:16:25 <Vorpal> cpressey, it can do that? I thought it just generated to file
20:16:31 <Vorpal> it is the only way I used it
20:16:53 <cpressey> I don't KNOW if it can do that, that's why I want to TEST it.
20:17:12 <cpressey> I assume if it cares that I put "alsa" in the command line, it can TRY to make sound.
20:17:12 <Vorpal> cpressey, so get a soundfont and a midi file and test it with that?
20:17:32 <Vorpal> cpressey, presumably you have both handy?
20:18:14 <Vorpal> cpressey, without a soundfont fluidsynth won't do much at all
20:18:36 <Vorpal> Don't create a midi driver to read MIDI input events [default = yes]
20:18:41 <Vorpal> that's awfully confusing
20:18:54 <Vorpal> is that "default: yes we create one" or "default: yes we won't create one"
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20:39:23 <fizzie> Hah, perldoc GD: "$pngdata = $image->png([$compression_level]): This returns the image data in PNG format. -- The optional $compression_level argument controls the amount of compression to apply to the output PNG image. Values range from 0-9, where 0 means no compression (largest files, highest quality) and 9 means maximum compression (smallest files, worst quality)."
20:39:34 <fizzie> Yes, the well-known horrible loss of quality for using zlib compression level 9.
20:39:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, you should submit a bug report
20:40:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, also assuming it use zlib that should be "9 means somewhat less sucky compression"
20:40:29 <Vorpal> 7z's deflate beats it easily
20:40:39 <fizzie> I don't know what it binds against, probably libpng which I think goes to zlib.
20:40:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, I'm talking about advpng and such
20:41:15 <fizzie> GD is not a very alive project, last newspost from 2007-11-28.
20:41:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, it could mean that it is finished
20:42:26 <fizzie> The libgd manual at web has fixed that particular issue, though it does overhype the compression level 9 a bit.
20:42:38 <fizzie> "A compression level of 0 means "no compression." A compression level of 1 means "compressed, but as quickly as possible." A compression level of 9 means "compressed as much as possible to produce the smallest possible file.""
20:42:46 <fizzie> That would be quite a breakthrough.
20:43:09 <fizzie> Though I guess it's sensible to interpret it in the "as well as the thing doing the compression can, anyway" sense.
20:44:00 <fizzie> http://search.cpan.org/dist/GD/GD.pm has the "9 == worst quality" text, and it's I guess the latest Perl GD module.
20:45:11 <fizzie> 15 open bugs, though, and some 5 years old, so...
20:45:47 <fizzie> Maybe I should be using something else. I don't think this can do less-than-256-colors PNG files anyway, though I guess it just might.
20:47:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, 4 bit grayscale is fun
20:47:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, I run into lots of apps that don't handle that properly
20:48:37 <fizzie> libgd itself has internal design around 8-bit palettes (there's truecolor support, but it's really horribly retrofitted on it), but I guess it's possible it also keeps a count of allocated colors and dumps out smaller-palette .pngs when possible. I'm just not very hopeful.
20:52:53 <fizzie> Ooh, it does indeed do a 1-bit colormap if you $img->colorAllocate() only two colors. It's not *completely* stupef that way.
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20:54:34 <Gregor-W> cpressey: My Rosegarden has no audio-output capability.
20:54:57 <Gregor-W> RE-CAPTCHA of the moment: (saddiq), sturock
20:55:16 <Vorpal> Gregor-W, is midi not audio?
20:55:30 <Gregor-W> MIDI is not audio until it's rendered.
20:55:35 <Gregor-W> And Rosegarden doesn't render it.
20:55:41 <Vorpal> Gregor-W, also mine has wave form audio output as well, through the use of jack.
20:55:46 <Vorpal> some of those plugins uses it
20:55:55 <Vorpal> and a PITA to get working
20:56:00 <Gregor-W> Oh, mine is compiled to be capable of it.
20:56:05 <Gregor-W> I just ignore it and don't care if it works.
20:56:10 <Gregor-W> I don't need Rosegarden to have audio output.
20:56:13 <Vorpal> Gregor-W, right, I had it working at one point
20:56:17 <Vorpal> no clue if it still works
20:56:26 <Gregor-W> And it's a PITA because syncing rendered MIDI with audio is basically impossible.
20:57:00 <Gregor-W> What they should do instead is have a way to render MIDI into a buffer, then they could have absolute control of when they output stuff, but instead they assume your MIDI device will render in its own sweet time *shrugs*
20:58:24 <Vorpal> Gregor-W, well it will. Since it is hardware midi
20:58:39 <Vorpal> Gregor-W, there might be a tiny desync
20:58:44 <Gregor-W> Obviously this technique depends on the nature of your device :P
20:58:57 <Vorpal> Gregor-W, SB Live 5.1, a consumer level card
20:59:07 <Vorpal> surely a pro audio card could then
20:59:23 <Gregor-W> If your device is fluidsynth, it could not.
21:00:54 <Vorpal> Gregor-W, well I use that to render the final version of the midi track
21:01:01 <Vorpal> Gregor-W, not for playback while editing
21:01:19 <Vorpal> Gregor-W, I don't really use the waveform audio stuff
21:02:03 <Vorpal> Gregor-W, isn't there a way to do like: fluidsynth --soundfont foo.sf2 bar.midi -o quux.wav
21:02:07 <Vorpal> I can't find the options for it
21:02:14 <Vorpal> I know I done something like that before
21:02:25 <Gregor-W> Yeah, but it's hyper-unreliable:
21:02:36 <Gregor-W> fluidsynth -F whatever.wav bleh.sf2 blat.mid
21:02:43 <Gregor-W> It just tends to fail in weird and obscure ways.
21:02:44 <Vorpal> Gregor-W, it should be the most reliable way to do it
21:02:56 <Vorpal> no need to depend on alsa keeping up and so on
21:03:08 <Gregor-W> But this is fluidsynth we're talking about.
21:03:14 <Vorpal> Gregor-W, is it that bad?
21:03:48 <cpressey> Gregor-W: Well, consarn it. It's reputed to be possible for Soundgarden to send MIDI events to Fluidsynth, and have Fluidsynth render them in "real"time, though? Because I do not own a MIDI device. Anymore.
21:04:18 <Gregor-W> cpressey: If you just want that, then you don't need Rosegarden's audio support at all. That's the simplest setup, and it's what I use.
21:04:27 <Gregor-W> cpressey: Fluidsynth will happily masquerade as a MIDI device.
21:04:43 <Gregor-W> Vorpal: http://codu.org/projects/zee/musichg/index.cgi/file/tip/fsmid2wav.sh <-- here is my script to do what you want (plus a bit that you don't want)
21:09:00 <Gregor-W> Vorpal: In fact, that script seems to include a decent list of all the ways that fluidsynth is broken.
21:10:59 <cpressey> Why fluidsynth and not timidity?
21:11:20 <Vorpal> cpressey, Soundgarden?
21:11:26 <Vorpal> do you mean Rosegarden?
21:11:50 <cpressey> If the point is just to have a program that masquerades as a MIDI device and renders it...
21:12:10 <Vorpal> cpressey, timidity is broken in my experience
21:12:20 <Vorpal> that was a while ago though
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21:12:49 <cpressey> So... Fluidsynth is broken, just less so? I still wanna know why open-source and Linux music software is so awful.
21:12:51 <Gregor-W> cpressey: Because timidity is astoundingly bad.
21:13:00 <Gregor-W> cpressey: Timidity isn't broken, it just sounds awful.
21:13:09 <Gregor-W> cpressey: Fluidsynth is horribly broken, but sounds spectacular.
21:13:34 <pikhq> cpressey: Actually, there's a lot of good Linux music software. Just not much when it comes to synthing.
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21:15:22 <Gregor-W> OK, Waverly Films' new bit "Doctors with Guns" is pretty much awesome :P
21:21:51 <cpressey> Well, Csound looks pretty cool I guess, but not really something suited for the activity of "composing"
21:24:36 <Vorpal> <Gregor-W> Vorpal: http://codu.org/projects/zee/musichg/index.cgi/file/tip/fsmid2wav.sh <-- here is my script to do what you want (plus a bit that you don't want) <-- did you report those bugs?
21:25:17 <Vorpal> and also, that might result in stutter on my system
21:25:22 <Vorpal> unlike -F presumably would
21:29:58 <Sgeo> Ok, "Pain" was a fun episode
21:30:28 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover_: The functional language "Clean" explicitly passes around a value representing the outside world (for I/O) iirc.
21:32:24 <Gregor-W> Vorpal: Uhhh, that most certainly should not result in stutter ...
21:32:31 <Gregor-W> Vorpal: fluidsynth's output is to file.
21:32:47 <Gregor-W> Vorpal: The only possible cause of stutter would be if aplaymidi couldn't provide MIDI data fast enough, but that's frankly absurd.
21:36:02 <cpressey> Wait, most modern sound cards do really crappy midi rendering internally, don't they?
21:36:45 <Gregor-W> Because they assume you'll do the MIDI in software :P
21:37:58 <cpressey> Hm... ok... but if it does, alsa will provide it as a MIDI port, right? heh. one can only hope
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21:38:34 <Gregor-W> fluidsynth -l -a alsa whatever.sf2 <-- this is all the partay you need.
21:41:05 <cpressey> Gregor-W: What should I expect if I run that? I mean, fluidsynth just sits there, no input no output on terminal, sucking back midi events and spewing out waveforms?
21:41:39 <cpressey> Because when I tried it with JACK, it gave me its own command-line interface.
21:41:46 <cpressey> Which was a little weird, frankly.
21:42:08 <cpressey> I was not expecting to have to type things into a "fluidsynth prompt".
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21:44:48 <Gregor-W> cpressey: It has its own command line interface, but there's nothing you have to do there unless you want to adjust its settings.
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21:45:04 <Gregor-W> cpressey: I often find myself using the "gain 1" command there, but otherwise not using it. Oh, and the "quit" command :P
21:50:57 <Gregor-W> I suspect that fluidsynth was not originally written with the notion of it being a daemon in mind.
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21:51:51 <Gregor-W> Like I said, fluidsynth is a terrible, terrible program ... which unfortunately is also an awesome, awesome program.
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22:01:50 <cpressey> "The Pragmatic Programmer" -- anyone here read it? Thoughts?
22:02:43 <Phantom_Hoover_> I haven't read it, but I can give an ignorant and bigoted opinion if you like.
22:03:08 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover_: I certainly won't stop you.
22:03:08 -!- relet has joined.
22:04:42 <Gregor-W> Phantom_Hoover_: I would like to hear your ignorant and bigoted opinion.
22:07:47 -!- derdon has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
22:08:37 <Gregor-W> Depends on your definitions of "OTHER", "PEOPLE" and "your"
22:11:02 <oerjan> as well as "use", "code" and "do"
22:12:00 <Phantom_Hoover_> Gregor-W, the what do you do? I hope it doesn't involve APPLICATIONS.
22:13:06 -!- cpressey has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:14:38 -!- cpressey has joined.
22:23:58 <cpressey> Apparently it recommends learning a new language every year.
22:24:10 <Sgeo> Ok, this is awesome
22:29:18 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
22:32:30 <Gregor-W> Phantom_Hoover_: It involves RESEARCH.
22:32:36 <Gregor-W> Phantom_Hoover_: And WRITING PAPER(S).
22:32:54 <Gregor-W> Phantom_Hoover_: Research THE WEBERNETS
22:33:59 <Gregor-W> Phantom_Hoover_: http://sss.cs.purdue.edu/projects/dynjs/pldi275-richards.pdf <-- not entirely unlike this one!
22:34:01 <Phantom_Hoover_> "WEBERNETS VERY STUPID. ME NOT BOTHER RESEARCHING AND INSTEAD HANG OUT ON #ESOTERIC."
22:34:57 <oerjan> WRITING PAPER is trivial. i write on paper nearly everyday (i use to solve the sudoku in the newspaper)
22:36:13 <Phantom_Hoover_> oerjan, you do Sudoku? I would have thought you would be busy MATHEMATICING.
22:36:44 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Quit: Quit).
22:37:07 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover_: it is quite unalterable by heat, it's the humidity. elric had heard such sounds echoing from his horns and tail.
22:37:15 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack* pa speeches ss wp youtube
22:37:26 <oerjan> yes the humidity is quite awful recently
22:37:26 <fungot> Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments)
22:37:35 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover_: that's impossible but cool,btw his style reminds me of my friends think she just wants to say
22:37:56 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover_: loved it!!!!!!
22:37:58 <Sgeo> fungot, I think we should declare war on B
22:37:58 <fungot> Sgeo: what if she stays like this!!!!
22:38:10 <Sgeo> Yes, B is a she, fungot
22:38:11 <fungot> Sgeo: what's the song rocks!! i think this one. at the grocery. you managed to contradict yourself there big time, and if it is sorta in the plane
22:41:23 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover_: thanks for reviewing that. go die beste ..das lied is hamma cool... i was about to sing like me...but he's a christian! who goes to yourcharity!
22:43:39 <Vorpal> <Gregor-W> Vorpal: The only possible cause of stutter would be if aplaymidi couldn't provide MIDI data fast enough, but that's frankly absurd. <-- alsa could cause it
22:43:45 <Vorpal> Gregor-W, single core and so on
22:44:08 <Vorpal> Gregor-W, besides, I'm sure it would stutter on a 386 if you tried that!
22:49:06 -!- alise has joined.
22:49:16 <alise> The Worm Who Had a Pet Worm
22:52:49 <alise> I went back in time. SUDDENLY
22:55:05 <Sgeo> alise, we have learned B's gender
22:55:18 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: Nomic.
22:55:20 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> fungot, I think we should declare war on B
22:55:20 <Sgeo> <fungot> Sgeo: what if she stays like this!!!!
22:55:20 <fungot> Sgeo: this could have been closed quite a vivid imagination, you are a couple of folks agreeing with me. but let me guess: you don't even get me wrong, ur stil idiots. i know
22:55:21 <fungot> Sgeo: hahaah, and i love when they announced it i dare u to press alt f4 and your house ( acts 16:31 your bible)
22:55:35 <alise> `addquote <fungot> Sgeo: hahaah, and i love when they announced it i dare u to press alt f4 and your house ( acts 16:31 your bible)
22:55:35 <fungot> alise: saw this last night, i have ever seen!.....i myself am a hillary clinton supporter btw.
22:55:39 <alise> Best version of the Bible ever.
22:55:50 <HackEgo> 215|<fungot> Sgeo: hahaah, and i love when they announced it i dare u to press alt f4 and your house ( acts 16:31 your bible)
22:58:23 <cpressey> alise have you read the pragmatic programmer
22:59:34 -!- Flonk has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.8/20100722155716]).
22:59:59 <alise> cpressey: I know of it; I have no wish to read it.
23:00:01 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover_: crap huggy fuzzy book for the multitudes of professional programmers who can't actually think
23:00:25 <alise> Dave Thomas I find to be one of the more irritating members of the Rubysphere. (God, I just coined that, and feel DIRTY.)
23:00:28 <cpressey> Wondering if anyone knew exactly how crap, is all.
23:00:40 <alise> ...the Pragmatic Programmers print some good books tohugh, I think
23:01:10 <alise> I, uh, sort of bought a hefty Rails volume when I was still doing web stuff, still doing Ruby, and they were the only docs available outside of an API reference.
23:01:19 <alise> In my defence, everyone else was doing it too. Just like heroin.
23:01:23 <alise> Except less blissful.
23:01:26 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover_: Yes, it looks like. It was highly recommended by two people here who I thought were smarter than that.
23:01:53 <alise> Oh, at work or in here?
23:02:05 <alise> cpressey: I gather that it's not actually a terrible book.
23:02:16 <cpressey> Well not physically *here*... argh
23:02:17 <alise> Like, it's certainly not pretentious enough for us, but it's not a "LOL PROGRAMMING IS EASY!" type thing.
23:02:33 <alise> cpressey: I suppose it's similar to Code Complete -- which I also haven't read.
23:02:53 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pragmatic_Programmer
23:02:56 <alise> From that, it actually seems awful.
23:03:09 <cpressey> I tried reading Code Complete. My operating theory is that, like CC, PP is probably an OK book for people whose minds work like that, but it would not help me.
23:03:35 <alise> What these books teach me is that I probably don't want to program underneath someone else for a living.
23:03:51 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: We're not even proper academia! That's the great thing.
23:04:13 <alise> We just sit here, dismissing questions as too easy and waffling on about nothing.
23:04:37 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: you're making me want to create an esolang inspired by that syntax
23:04:47 <alise> object → receiver, or something
23:04:50 <cpressey> The weird thing is how heavily "software engineering" concentrates on personality and process -- as if the "writing software that works" part just took care of itself.
23:05:25 <alise> cpressey: But, dude, with Agile there's so little time left to actually write code that it's impossible to screw up any one component; that'd be like screwing up "Hello, world!"
23:05:39 <alise> And then AGILE PROCESS ensures that all the pieces stick together! YAY!
23:06:01 <cpressey> Sorry, what was that? I was busy switching context.
23:06:38 <cpressey> I keep forgetting it's all a lost cause ;)
23:08:37 <alise> Wow, Dave Thomas actually studied computer science. I cannae believe it.
23:08:39 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later).
23:09:13 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
23:09:42 <alise> cpressey: Can you attempt to explain to me what the hell distinguishes SCRUM! from AGILE!?
23:09:56 <alise> I know it may cause permanent brain damage if you try and think about this stuff, but I'm truly curious.
23:10:21 <alise> Hmm, is it that Scrum is-a-concrete-instance-of-the-abstract-classifier Agile?
23:10:30 <cpressey> alise: Urk. Well, as far as *I* have ever been able to tell, Scrum is a kind of Agile.
23:11:02 <Gregor-W> "Agile" is a descriptive adjective, used specifically to describe a family of techniques. Scrum is a technique.
23:11:09 <alise> IN MY DAY, people said "Agile" and meant a specific process involving passive-aggressivity, post-it notes and orgies^Wgroup hugs^Wsessions
23:11:50 <cpressey> I believe "Agile" to be intentionally vaguely defined so that organizations can say "Why yes, we do Agile here!"
23:12:12 <cpressey> And just never mind about XP. Just never mind.
23:12:45 <alise> cpressey: It's funny, because the C2 wiki -- as well as, you know, being the first -- actually has some of the most level-headed stuff about programming on the web.
23:12:51 <alise> But it's so grounded in XP culture that I have no idea how.
23:14:47 <cpressey> Well, I haven't checked recently, but last I did, XP seemed virtually dead.
23:15:10 <alise> How can an /idea/ die?
23:16:06 <cpressey> I mean in the sense that no one seems to describe themselves as using it.
23:16:40 <Gregor-W> I use scrumstreme agilegramming
23:17:20 <cpressey> When I saw it, XP contained the commandment "If XP is broken, fix it". This made XP the Wiki of development methodologies. I think it ended up being diluted into meaninglessness.
23:17:35 <cpressey> But, I'm guessing here. I don't talk very long to anyone who seems too into this sort of thing.
23:17:36 <Sgeo> What's wrong with XP?
23:19:04 <cpressey> Sgeo: Since XP could be anything at this point (see above), I can't say.
23:19:21 <alise> People have turned agile from a silly little game to boost morale and keep focused into a cult.
23:19:27 <alise> It's almost comedic. Almost.
23:19:40 <Sgeo> I thought XP was just writing tests first, or am I mistaken?
23:19:41 <alise> Extreme programming should be more like extreme ironing.
23:19:47 <alise> COMPILING ON THE TOP OF A CLIFF
23:19:54 <alise> WRITING AN OPERATING SYSTEM WHILE BUNGEE JUMPING
23:20:04 <alise> Sgeo: No, that's TDD. Or BDD, depending on your God.
23:20:26 <cpressey> BDD = TDD where I pretend my tests are written in English
23:21:58 <cpressey> And I approve of TDD, more or less, btw.
23:22:14 <cpressey> I don't always do it myself, but sometimes.
23:22:49 <alise> I tried to like TDD, but it turns out that I'm Sick of This Shit and just want to write some fucking code, not spend ages explaining to a computer how my code should work and then writing it.
23:23:00 <alise> I explain to it how the code should work once already, by writing it.
23:23:10 <alise> Besides, test cases are always so rudimentary, arbitrary and stupid...
23:23:38 <cpressey> Proof-Driven Development would be better.
23:24:05 <alise> Yes, but ... I've become disillusioned a bit with that.
23:24:49 <cpressey> The main reason I'm OK with TDD is because tests are so much easier to write near the beginning, when the requirements are, uh, not history yet.
23:24:49 <Sgeo> Should I learn some design patterns?
23:25:18 <cpressey> After code has been out in the wild for a while... shit, good luck knowing how it's "supposed" to be behave.
23:25:25 <Sgeo> alise, explanation?
23:25:27 <alise> Sgeo: Just no. And don't ask why.
23:25:33 <Sgeo> I'm asking why
23:25:37 <alise> cpressey: You tell him why.
23:26:22 <cpressey> Sgeo: Actually you should. But you should learn them without assistance of any books, examples, other people, or other people's code.
23:26:36 <cpressey> No instructional videos either. Dammit!
23:26:51 <alise> In case Sgeo can't tell, cpressey is telling Sgeo to learn them simply by writing code that uses them, which Sgeo almost certainly does already.
23:27:00 <alise> alise is a completely impartial observer with no sense of identity.
23:29:00 <cpressey> The classic "gang of four" book on design patterns is not bad, actually, but ...
23:29:35 <Sgeo> I just want to be sure that I'm not a code monkey, and if I am, fix it
23:29:42 <cpressey> 1. Originators come up with concept 2. Originators use concept 3. Concept is good 4. Concept is published 5. People start using concept "in the large" 6. Concept is now crap
23:30:25 <cpressey> Behold the power of dumbing down.
23:30:41 <cpressey> Sgeo: Write proofs. Even simple ones. It's the best cure I know of.
23:30:53 <cpressey> Not proofs of programs, necessarily. Just proofs.
23:31:02 <cheater99> so, inception is one of the better movies
23:31:13 <Sgeo> Was about to say, I have no idea how proofs of programs work
23:31:34 <cheater99> i asked this question a few times here
23:31:55 <alise> <Sgeo> I just want to be sure that I'm not a code monkey, and if I am, fix it
23:32:00 <alise> learning "design patterns" will make you one
23:32:18 <alise> cheater99: because it's not that simple
23:32:52 <alise> like a random computer illiterate on the street asking you to explain the halting problem, except for program proving we don't have the standard stock answers that make it easy.
23:33:06 <alise> and i'm sure that computer illiterate may be a very successful doctor or whatever, which isn't simple
23:33:07 <cheater99> i followed the whole storyline of inception without getting lost
23:33:11 <alise> but that doesn't make it any easier.
23:33:13 <alise> cheater99: yes it is
23:33:16 <alise> it's just nesting, big whoop
23:33:23 <Sgeo> I haven't seen Inception yet
23:33:38 <alise> Sgeo: it's like the matrix but with more layers of nesting
23:33:43 <cpressey> OK, I can only say one more thing on the subject then I have to leave...
23:33:44 <alise> and leonardo dicaprio
23:34:10 <alise> cheater99: ok, so you're creating an imagined Average Person who doesn't grok inception so that you can claim you achieved something by grokking inception
23:35:13 <cheater99> you guessed, i am projecting my erotic desire.
23:35:21 <cheater99> so what about those program proofs?
23:35:21 <cpressey> OK, well I forgot what the question was.
23:37:06 <Sgeo> Which costs more, replacement coords for a headset with replacable coords, or very cheap headsets
23:37:18 <Sgeo> Replace headsets for headphones if headset implies a microphone
23:37:20 <cpressey> Proving properties of programs is not really different from proving properties of the integers. It's just that the integers have a simpler structure. There are an infinite number of possible runs through a program; there are an infinite number of integers. You find a way to link the property you want to prove, to the properties that you already know, by going back to the definitions.
23:37:47 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
23:41:32 <alise> cpressey's explanation was crap there, btw.
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23:50:28 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> Bucket, Stargate Universe
23:50:29 <Sgeo> <Bucket> Stargate Voyager?
23:50:53 <alise> Sgeo: Clearly, someone has a low opinion of the series.
23:51:10 <Sgeo> Or they're pointing out the obvious similarity
23:51:26 <alise> Yeah, uh, newsflash: Voyager is universally hated by EVERYONE but you.
23:51:33 <alise> Even the ACTORS hated Voyager.
23:51:34 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:51:48 -!- MizardX- has changed nick to MizardX.
23:51:59 <Sgeo> Not necessarily all of them
23:52:18 <Sgeo> Just 2 of them, I think
23:52:18 <alise> Mulgrew and Beltran did, and that's just the ones that have spoken out.
23:52:26 <alise> A lot of the writers hate a lot of the work they did..
23:52:59 <alise> The series's "critical acclaim" is a misnomer; it's more "hysterical, sarcastic laughter", and the fan opinion is too horrific to be put into words.
23:53:17 <alise> If someone compared a series to Voyager, especialy a series that has been met with some disdain, it is a deliberate insult.
23:53:53 <cheater99> who are mulgrew and beltran again?
23:54:03 <Sgeo> Mulgrew is the actress for Janeway
23:54:08 <alise> cheater99: Janeway and Chakotay.
23:54:20 <alise> cheater99: Chakotay's extremely wooden acting was due to Beltran not giving a shit.
23:54:23 <cheater99> how would you like to be playing an old woman
23:54:44 <alise> Not giving a single shit at all.
23:55:04 <cheater99> <cheater99> i love fucking recruiters
23:55:04 <cheater99> <cheater99> 09:14 (15 hours ago) Hi XXX,
23:55:04 <cheater99> <cheater99> I hope you have had a good day, unfortunately mine is not nearly over!
23:55:04 <cheater99> <cheater99> yeah, i very well hope your day isn't over at 9 am you worthless bitch
23:55:17 <alise> "i love fucking recruiters"
23:55:26 <cheater99> fucking recruiters are loved by me.
23:55:38 <alise> Or, you enjoy congress of a certain nature with recruiters.
23:55:56 <Sgeo> alise, that's a Sgeo-joke!
23:56:07 <Sgeo> More evidence that you're turning into me!
23:56:25 <alise> Sgeo: You turn things that don't directly say "fucking", "sex", "intercourse" or "snu-snu" into really strained sexual references.
23:56:29 <alise> That is totally not the same thing.
23:56:51 <Sgeo> alise, I did that, what, once or twice on the same day?
23:57:04 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:57:16 -!- augur has joined.
23:57:26 <alise> cheater99 is like the terrible replacement for augur after augur left at the end of a season, returning only for a few later cameos
23:57:31 <alise> and i totally started writing that before augur came in. no joke
00:00:07 <augur> http://videolectures.net/mlcs07_higuera_giv/
00:00:15 <augur> thus guy has a very bizarre mix of accents
00:00:32 <augur> half english of some sort, with touches of french
00:01:49 <alise> cheater99: define hugh.
00:02:15 <cheater99> out of place, young, inexperienced, and nobody takes him seriously
00:03:40 <alise> if anyone's out of place in this channel it's you, there are a few younger than me, either stupidly incorrect or irrelevant depending on what you think i'm inexperienced in
00:03:48 <alise> and i have fairly good empirical evidence against the last one.
00:09:47 -!- zzo38 has joined.
00:09:56 <zzo38> They keep moving the spider!
00:14:33 <cheater99> alise: i'm glad i riled you up, there was no other point to saying that sweetie
00:16:34 <alise> just vaguely amused
00:17:11 <alise> cheater99 had a rather pathetic go at insulting me
00:17:37 <zzo38> Are you still insulted? Did I insult you too?
00:17:46 <cheater99> if it was so pathetic, why did you take the time to write such a long retort?
00:17:48 <alise> I don't believe you said anything insulting ...
00:17:58 <alise> cheater99: Uhh, I type pretty fast, and I have nothing better to do.
00:18:00 -!- zzo38 has quit.
00:18:15 <cheater99> nothing better to do than to answer pathetic insults, huh?
00:18:32 <alise> Yep. If I had something better to do, I wouldn't be blabbing on IRC.
00:18:38 <alise> Or responding to these questions about questions.
00:20:38 -!- Gregor-W has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
00:21:16 * cheater99 watches alise start spinning a spinner to check what question she's on
00:21:35 <alise> You know, you don't exactly seem like you have anything better to do, either.
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00:25:17 <alise> pikhq: Have you seen "Star Trek New Voyages: Phase II"? It's a bit /too/ faithful to TOS; copying even its production values!
00:25:24 <alise> Except this time the film is good enough to see the cheese.
00:25:55 <cheater99> i'm reading memory alpha on the EMH
00:26:17 <alise> The Doc was the only good character on Voyager.
00:26:33 <alise> And he had to deal with a ship full of fools.
00:27:13 <alise> Wowwwwww, the cheese is just so great.
00:27:20 <alise> (I'm watching "World Enough and Time".)
00:27:28 <alise> I may have to stop soon.
00:28:15 <CakeProphet> I just woke up from a meth-induced binge sleep that lasted for a week
00:28:20 -!- tombom_ has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:28:36 <alise> I think that's generally a pretty good sign that you should lay off the god damned meth.
00:29:25 <CakeProphet> I can have sex for hours on meth, while programming in assembly.
00:29:37 <CakeProphet> ...but it's mainly the assembly code that turns me on.
00:29:52 <alise> I'm not even going to /start/ trying to reason.
00:30:04 <augur> alise: omg that guy
00:30:11 <augur> hes so french at times
00:30:15 <augur> but then at times hes so english
00:30:25 <augur> "but you know jolly well that its not"
00:30:36 <alise> Bonjour! Tally ho!
00:31:01 -!- Zuu has joined.
00:31:06 <augur> he says "here" as "hyeaahh"
00:31:38 <alise> wow, this is the worst Spock ever
00:31:43 <alise> just ... the worst
00:32:11 <alise> augur: "Star Trek New Voyages: Phase II"
00:32:13 <coppro> alise: there are many fanfics out there that wish to disagree
00:32:20 <alise> fan-created sequel to The Original Series
00:32:25 <alise> very high production values for a fan creation
00:32:30 <alise> George Takei and people have been in it
00:32:42 <alise> The Trouble with Tribbles writer is doing too
00:32:45 <alise> but despite all of this
00:32:49 <alise> it's so hilariously, hilariously bad
00:32:53 <augur> its still horrible yeah
00:33:03 <CakeProphet> has everyone attempted to watch Plan 9 from Outer Space?
00:33:09 <alise> man apparently kirk's main personality feature is wrinkling his face every two words
00:33:16 <CakeProphet> I tried... but there was too much bad and not enough hilarity.
00:33:23 <alise> it really looks like some kids pretending to be in star trek
00:33:46 <alise> "a tangle of MULTIPLE DIMENSIONS".
00:34:07 <alise> multi-coloured glitter
00:34:10 <alise> I am absolutely not joking
00:34:54 <alise> i have to take a screenshot
00:34:58 <alise> how can you take a screenshot with mplayer/Xv?
00:35:16 <alise> if the whole window is visible
00:35:57 <alise> i repeat, lay off the meth
00:36:01 <augur> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QspuCt1FM9M
00:36:03 <augur> i dont know what to make of this
00:36:24 -!- Gregor-W has joined.
00:36:30 <alise> augur: the start is awesome ambient
00:36:47 <augur> alise: the whole thing is some awesome ambient
00:36:53 <alise> coppro: http://imgur.com/uoU1V.png
00:37:10 <alise> Hikaru Sulu, wearing his anti-antimatter glitter suit.
00:37:23 <alise> augur: this is amazing
00:37:29 <alise> augur: someone do his whole album like this
00:37:30 <augur> alise: I KNOW RIGHT?
00:37:40 <alise> "Holy crap. Is this Godspeed You! Black Emperor?" --comments
00:37:45 <augur> who knew that justin bieber was actually a GOOD musical artist!
00:38:01 <alise> the record company just forced him to speed it up
00:38:03 <alise> you know, for the kids
00:38:06 <coppro> god dammit I hate scribd
00:38:23 <alise> augur: get rid of his name and the album title, remove his facial features, and blur it to hell
00:38:27 <alise> there's his original, intended album cover
00:39:37 <alise> i seriously want to save this
00:40:13 <CakeProphet> this is supposed to be a HAPPY song and not a song you'd play at someone's funeral!!! my opinion! I really do not like it at all. Doesn't even sound like the original at all. Boo ya.
00:40:28 <fungot> Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments)
00:40:36 <CakeProphet> fungot, what do you think about this comment?
00:40:36 <fungot> CakeProphet: 5125l: oh shut up? and mark wahlberg second reason filmed in canada and that avril lavigne rockssssss a friend came by around 3:30 am and pic was frozen right on this
00:43:46 <augur> alise: im tempted now to take some classic ambient music and speed it up
00:43:48 <augur> to see what it sounds like
00:44:25 <augur> how ridiculous if Brian Eno was actually just ripping off Jimi Hendrix
00:45:03 <alise> omg, that is exactly what this sounds like that i couldn't put my finger on
00:45:56 <CakeProphet> so I found something that FIXES Haskell records. :)
00:46:06 <alise> CakeProphet: making them 800% slower?
00:46:24 <Gregor-W> Oh, is that not what that stands for?
00:46:30 <augur> alise: im not sure tho if this is actually just justin bieber
00:46:30 <alise> augur: i will now attempt to listen to the original song by "Justin" "Bieber"
00:46:44 <augur> i tried listening to a version on youtube and it sounded a bit different
00:46:55 <augur> so im going to record this version and then speed it up
00:46:56 <alise> augur: that is what slowing things down generally does.
00:47:04 <alise> talk about loss of fidelity
00:48:04 <CakeProphet> so now the act of setting a record field can be abstracted...
00:49:08 <augur> thats who that french guy sounds like
00:49:47 <CakeProphet> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swQAwnusJVQ
00:49:53 <CakeProphet> this song looks like a good candidate for speed-up
00:50:03 <alise> augur: i can't read david mitchell's articles, because they get read in his voice
00:50:06 <CakeProphet> the piano melody will probably sound like experimental jazz or something.
00:50:12 <Sgeo> Well, just finished the first season of SGU
00:50:14 <alise> the guardian need to put authorship credits st the /bottom/
00:50:55 <alise> Eno sort of already does that time-fucking anyway.
00:51:53 <alise> Talking Heads' "Remain in Light", produced by Eno, has all its music sped up quite a bit (but not the vocals).
00:52:19 <alise> Although that's not quite 800%. :P
00:57:02 <augur> http://www.mediafire.com/?aenvebe86u0d7ha
00:58:46 <alise> Is it ... any less repetitive?
00:59:18 <augur> look, i didnt say justin bieber wasnt philip glass, ok
00:59:58 <alise> "Russian village bought by torrent site torrentreactor.net for $150,000 and renamed after it
00:59:58 <alise> Torrentreactor.net is one of the few companies that has decided to leave a permanent mark on the world map and rename a settlement after itself. The one with real houses and live inhabitants. A small russian village Gar was chosen to be renamed. It is located not far away from Seversk nuclear reactor (Russia, Tomsk region). As opposed to Google town that became the Texas «capital» for a limited period of time Torrentreactor village will retain its name f
00:59:58 <alise> orever. The price of $150,000 was announced for such «live billboard»."
01:02:56 <augur> youve already got a town in australia named after /you/
01:03:44 <alise> technically, that's Alice.
01:05:43 <augur> it really its justin bieber
01:06:00 <alise> augur: now i have a task for you
01:06:02 <alise> download his entire album
01:06:06 <alise> do the same transformation to every track
01:06:13 <alise> now, find a few tracks that go together
01:06:18 <augur> first im speeding up brian eno
01:06:21 <alise> repeat until the whole album is mixed into a few half-hour long tracks
01:06:29 <alise> say a nice three-track, 90 minute mix
01:06:59 <alise> so that's ~3 songs from his album per mix, you can do that
01:07:02 <alise> augur: because it's too bland on its own, see
01:07:05 <alise> the interlocking will be beautiful
01:07:10 <augur> the expansion of the song did horrendous stuff to Bieber's music
01:07:19 <alise> it already is horrendous
01:07:46 <alise> augur: when you have those three tracks, just note their lengths, cat them together, add loooong crossfades between them, split at the same time
01:07:53 <alise> tada, Justin Bieber: Music of Form
01:07:57 <augur> the lengthening process (and then the subsequent shortening) destroyed a lot of the quality of the instruments
01:08:06 <alise> augur: what quality :P
01:08:13 <alise> Justin Bieber - Formative Music
01:08:16 <augur> well, the instruments sound like instruments :P
01:08:54 <alise> also make all the titles somehow based on mutations of his song titles
01:09:27 <alise> Cycle 1, including Usmil's Baby and Overbored
01:09:32 <alise> you're making me look up justin bieber song titles
01:12:24 <augur> alise: im listening to some Aphex Twin sped up
01:12:31 <augur> sounds almost proper
01:13:08 <alise> augur: "Richard D. James Album" is pretty damn hyper already. :P
01:13:11 <augur> blue calx at 400% speed is almost playful
01:13:27 <alise> But I assume you mean his more ... ambient work.
01:13:53 <alise> RDJA is surprisingly /catchy/.
01:18:36 <alise> torrents are so crap :|
01:19:08 <augur> alise: im listening to a song called San Tommaso Eqed by Der Spyra
01:19:28 <augur> but sped up it sounds like it could have been a movie-classical
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01:24:58 <alise> I need a Usenet link.
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01:33:25 <pikhq> Six gigs of *MP3s*... Good god that's a large torrent.
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01:38:31 <zeotrope> augur: have you heard the analord bonus tracks?
01:38:34 <alise> Meanwhile I can't even find a decent, non-remastered FLAC rip of "Remain in Light" (mentioning things gives me this urge to acquire them).
01:38:40 <alise> That is, the only one I can find has zero seeders and is hence useless.
01:38:49 <pikhq> alise: Yeah, it's annoying, but. 77 freaking albums in a torrent.
01:39:02 <augur> zeotrope: no. does that involve buttsex
01:39:10 <alise> zeotrope: Is the rest of Analord better than Chosen Lords?
01:39:15 <alise> Chosen Lords is a bit crap.
01:39:46 <alise> It was good the first time.
01:39:51 <alise> After that... bleh.
01:40:57 <zeotrope> it had only 6 songs, the analord collection is quite large
01:41:33 <augur> alise: apparently if you dont slow justin bieber down much (maybe a litte) but lower his pitch drastically, you get johnny cash
01:41:44 <alise> augur: except, shit johnny cash
01:41:53 <augur> i think cash was shit anyway
01:42:09 <alise> his cover of Hurt was great :P
01:42:29 <alise> zeotrope: my least favourite aphex twin album though is ...I Care Because You Do
01:42:35 <pikhq> augur: Apparently, if you shoot Justin Bieber and put on a Daft Punk album you get good music.
01:42:45 <augur> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZmkFmW5LXY
01:42:46 <alise> pikhq: Unless it's Human After All.
01:42:48 <alise> Then you get Human After All.
01:42:56 <pikhq> alise: Okay, yes, fair point.
01:43:04 <alise> Also, http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/daftpunk/aroundtheworld.html
01:43:15 <alise> Gregor-W: THAT TOO
01:43:22 <pikhq> alise: Such a fucking weird song.
01:43:27 <pikhq> alise: Also, the music video is weirder.
01:43:30 <alise> pikhq: AROUND THE WORLD AROUND THE WORLD
01:43:42 <augur> alise: that last link has now turned me on to george michael
01:43:47 <augur> who i would've never thought could be good
01:43:52 <alise> Okay, I do actually like parts of Human After All.
01:43:53 <pikhq> Fucking Daft Punk, thinking that techno exempts them from lyrics.
01:43:57 <alise> "The Prime Time of Your Life" is pretty good.
01:44:25 <alise> the genres we've covered in the past hours is imrpressive
01:44:41 <alise> augur: that muse/stefani thing is totally true, btw
01:44:43 <alise> and very disturbing
01:45:08 <pikhq> alise: About the only thing that's common with geek musical tastes is not limiting themselves to the current mainstream of music.
01:45:29 <augur> listening now alise
01:45:44 * Gregor-W <3 his restrictive musical palate.
01:46:04 <augur> alise: its kinda true yeah
01:46:08 <pikhq> Gregor-W: You merely restrict yourself to forms of music not derived from folk music traditions.
01:47:07 <alise> pikhq: http://w00tstock.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/05g-400x300.jpg
01:47:14 <alise> "Shut up Wesley!", says Wesley.
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01:47:33 <pikhq> Gregor-W: You also end up limiting yourself from the sheer agony that is constructed-pop music.
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01:47:41 <alise> you're sitting on my screen
01:47:43 <alise> whacking into my hand
01:47:52 <augur> alise: the main differences between muse and stefani
01:47:54 <augur> as far as i can tell
01:48:04 <alise> Be very careful with your next words.
01:48:08 <augur> stefani uses a basilect, and has a more hissy voice
01:48:19 <alise> OK, as long as you criticise Black Holes and Revelations and after you're good.
01:48:24 <pikhq> Constructed-pop is perhaps the most painful thing to listen to ever.
01:48:32 <alise> But Origin of Symmetry is above criticism, dammit.
01:52:50 <augur> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vBZrc4ZEYM&feature=related
01:53:15 <alise> Why has YouTube become the music distribution source?
01:53:29 <alise> augur: That so needs speeding up.
01:53:45 <augur> alise: because its hard to police
01:53:59 <alise> It's fucking video.
01:54:15 <augur> theres no equivalent to it in terms of audio
01:54:25 <augur> with a bajillion videos uploaded every day
01:54:29 <augur> its hard to police for music
01:55:01 <augur> on the other hand, if there were an equivalent audio site, it'd be MOSTLY music
01:55:11 <alise> ur mom is mostly music
01:56:30 <augur> thats too nice a thing to say about my mom.
01:57:16 <alise> i think i'll just make a mental note to never make ur mom jokes in #esoteric
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02:00:52 <Sgeo> Grooveshark exists
02:02:01 <augur> grooveshark is rather shit
02:02:29 <augur> but it did have a song that was nifty
02:02:39 <augur> also, grooveshark is legal.
02:02:44 <augur> its not music sharing in the same way.
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02:06:50 * Sgeo WTFs at Google Chrome update
02:07:05 <Sgeo> At least there's a nice icon telling me
02:15:08 * Sgeo learns of /r/nethack
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02:44:08 <Sgeo> Going to torture myself with more SGI soon
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03:15:31 <pikhq> Huh. An unmatched " or ' on a logical line is undefined behavior in C.
03:15:45 <pikhq> It would be perfectly acceptable for the compiler to respond by blowing up the planet.
03:16:40 <Gregor> pikhq: OMG NEW T-REX IS LONELY COMIC
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03:39:51 <coppro> pikhq: I know. That one is epic
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04:32:23 * pikhq is now highly upset.
04:32:48 <pikhq> The only thing I have found that does vertical text only Linux without fiddling is... OpenOffice.
04:34:07 <pikhq> Pango requires fiddling.
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04:34:16 <pikhq> Sadly, OpenOffice fucks up the details.
04:34:56 <pikhq> (「 is *technically* a half-width character with an implicit half-width space preceding it, except at the start of lines...)
04:36:18 <pikhq> It also doesn't do hanging punctuation.
04:36:29 <pikhq> So, it does vertical *text*, but it rapes typesetting.
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04:38:06 <coppro> are you trying to do Japanese?
04:38:51 <pikhq> I have yet to find anything on Linux that typesets vertical Japanese correctly.
04:42:04 <pikhq> (TeX manages to do horizontal Japanese decently)
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04:55:21 <zzo38> They keep moving the spider!
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05:03:34 <zzo38> O, please read the follow spell (if you do not want to dye, or even if you do want to dye): http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/options/Good_Insane_Spell.s (and suggest a spell level and/or domain)
05:03:51 <zzo38> (Please note I meant if you do or not want to dye, I don't mean die)
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05:11:04 * pikhq fucking *hates* how absolutely nothing handles freaking two consecutive punctuation correct.
05:11:31 <pikhq> 」。, if done *right*, would be a single character in width.
05:11:32 <zzo38> pikhq: What do you expect?
05:11:46 <pikhq> zzo38: Proper Japanese typesetting.
05:12:21 <zzo38> Can TeX be made to make Japanese writing including it being done right?
05:14:10 <zzo38> Please tell me what level this spell could be? Could it be a 6th level spell? Or 7th level spell?
05:16:08 <zzo38> coppro: Rolled when?
05:17:23 <zzo38> I don't see how it could work at preparation time, but perhaps, every day. But then, that means it can be learned at any level and sometimes you will be unable to use it that day??
05:17:37 <coppro> also, a strict reading of 0% would mean that if you rolleit, then rolled, again, you would roll 4 more times
05:17:37 <zzo38> Also I think it is powerful for 1st level spell or 2nd level spell
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05:18:12 <zzo38> coppro: That is not what is meant, if you roll 0% and then 0% again, you are meant to roll 3 more times, how can I clarify that?
05:19:53 <coppro> zzo38: delete the part about rolling 0% again
05:19:57 <zzo38> (Also, for the level, I do not have a nine sided dice anyways)
05:20:20 <zzo38> coppro: What if I put that part in parentheses?
05:20:27 <coppro> yeah, that would probably be good
05:20:43 <zzo38> Done. It is now in parentheses
05:21:02 <zzo38> But if the level is random, I still don't know how you are supposed to decide when, and how it will work with a random level
05:22:18 <zzo38> But if the level is random I don't like 1d9 or 1d10-1, perhaps 1d4+4 or 1d6+3 would be better, but it still not quite sure how well it can work like that
05:24:46 <zzo38> And which domain would the spell belong to? And what mantle?
05:25:30 <zzo38> Do you like this spell? How often would *you* cast this spell?
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05:29:25 <zzo38> Is there anything else unclear about the spell?
05:32:48 <coppro> zzo38: Probably never, because I value my sanity
05:33:28 <zzo38> Sanity is the trademark of a weak mind.
05:35:07 <zzo38> (Actually I don't know who Mark Harrold is, and I don't care)
05:35:11 <zzo38> (But that's irrelevant)
05:35:25 <zzo38> Is anything unclear about the spell effect, as it is currently written?
05:35:51 <zzo38> Is the spell sufficiently balanced close enough?
05:41:49 <zzo38> (O, and also, please do not steal my stapler.)
05:43:06 <coppro> it's so silly I don't think it could be said to be balanced one way or another
05:45:06 <zzo38> I still think it is worth 6th or 7th level, though. All the costs of it will make balance about as much as Limited Wish and other spells like that
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05:45:51 <zzo38> The spell can potentially kill you if you are not careful (and possibly even if you are careful)!
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07:40:58 <coppro> I discovered the epicness that is 'dn' in vim
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07:51:13 <Vorpal> coppro, talking of /, I just realised the phrase "spell pretty pi" is a valid sed expression
07:51:34 <Vorpal> (same meaning as s/ell /retty /i )
07:52:13 <Vorpal> it should be possible to use that general idea for some interesting obfuscation. Perhaps even sed poems
07:52:54 <Vorpal> calamari, sounds like a good target for such obfuscation.
07:53:02 <Vorpal> alas I don't know sed quite well enough
07:53:24 <calamari> I looked the other day, didn't find one
07:53:39 <Vorpal> calamari, wait, isn't sed input bound
07:53:53 <Vorpal> at least it need one line of input to compute anything
07:53:55 <fizzie> No, you can do arbitrarily much computation per input line.
07:54:04 <fizzie> You do need one line of input, that's true.
07:54:53 <coppro> I now really really <3 the concept of motions (and I was a fan before)
07:55:26 <Vorpal> anyone know the size of the set of valid unique irc nick chars? With unique I mean counting Foo and foo as the same, since irc is case insensitive.
07:56:34 <Vorpal> my goal here is figuring out how many possible nicks of max length 16 there are
07:56:43 <fizzie> The valid characters are different for the first character than the others.
07:56:54 -!- calamari has changed nick to a234567890123456.
07:56:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, ah... yes that complicates it indeed
07:57:27 <fizzie> And it also depends on whether your server does that sort-of-standard-but-still-obsoleted case-mapping of former Finnish 7-bit encoding åäö/ÅÄÖ.
07:57:55 <Vorpal> on the server I'm calculating this for: CHARSET=ascii
07:58:05 -!- a234567890123456 has changed nick to a_-.
07:58:16 <Vorpal> I own _[] on freenode :P
07:58:20 -!- a_- has changed nick to a[].
07:58:34 -!- a[] has changed nick to a^.
07:58:38 <fizzie> The legal starting characters are A-Z and these: [ ] \ ` _ ^ { | }
07:58:56 <fizzie> And then digits 0-9 in the non-starting ones.
07:59:12 <a^> so there you go..
07:59:16 -!- a^ has changed nick to calamari.
07:59:25 <Vorpal> that means for any length n the number of valid nicks are s*t^n where s is size of starting set and t is the size of the set for the rest...
07:59:56 <Vorpal> is there anything like ! except for plus rather than multiplication?
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08:00:09 <Vorpal> calamari, you need to include each length
08:00:18 <Vorpal> shorter than or equal to 16
08:00:43 <Vorpal> wait, got to rush, will do this when I get back
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08:01:39 <fizzie> If you're in such a rush, just write the terms; there's not *that* many of them.
08:01:46 <fizzie> 35+35*45+34*(45^2)+34*(45^3)+34*(45^4)+34*(45^5)+34*(45^6)+34*(45^7)+34*(45^8)+34*(45^9)+34*(45^10)+34*(45^11)+34*(45^12)+34*(45^13)+34*(45^14)+34*(45^15)
08:01:46 <fizzie> 218487432379159386374733710
08:02:53 <fizzie> Except don't do what I do and typo that 35 as 34. :p
08:03:39 <calamari> I think I personally would have factored that out lol
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08:05:07 <fizzie> >>> sum([35*(45**x) for x in range(16)])
08:05:07 <fizzie> 224913533331487603621049360L
08:05:13 <fizzie> That's the Python one.
08:06:16 <calamari> >>> math.log(a*35)/math.log(2)
08:07:28 <calamari> so you have approx 11 bytes of storage (assuming that's what this was for?)
08:11:14 <fizzie> Did we have that thing here?
08:11:17 <fizzie> !haskell sum (map (\x -> 35*45^x) [0 .. 15])
08:11:33 <EgoBot> 224913533331487603621049360
08:14:54 <calamari> !haskell sum (map (\x -> 2^x) [0 .. 100000])
08:16:06 <coppro> have you ever written code that you actually use in something that, whenver you look at it, you are both proud and disgusted to have written it?
08:16:57 <fizzie> !haskell 35*(45^16-1) `div` 44
08:16:59 <EgoBot> 199800418602876901588806552866006718196085827810836338354305854772629166492851469665497466266489930080632878889111170986003759932153123531258169427084949857503977792597473421864927008547462249585316005570624821774741712105744567803291373820537013518470358293941057152893936030496646909510865005855730416139155419434822044640859527024106615559937958502332397415435715519110434401626405904092358984585185912478419315957471163173350509915946262896124985205236
08:18:10 <fizzie> Well, it would give the same answer, but I guess EgoBot is being busy now.
08:21:57 <calamari> hate to crash the bot and run, but I need to go to bed :)
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08:22:24 <fizzie> Perhaps it just ignored the stuff that happened while it was busey?
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08:25:06 <fizzie> !perl $s += 35*(45**$_) foreach (0 .. 15); print $s;
08:25:13 <fizzie> That's not quite as useful, thanks to floats.
08:26:04 <fizzie> !perl use bignum; $s += 35*(45**$_) foreach (0 .. 15); print $s;
08:26:06 <EgoBot> 224913533331487603621049360
08:31:26 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
08:31:42 <fizzie> Vorpal: Incidentally, CHARSET=ascii does not mean anything about the case-mapping.
08:32:06 <fizzie> Vorpal: If it says CASEMAPPING=rfc1459 it technically speaking should be using the "weird" one.
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08:33:36 <fizzie> Freenode seems to say that, though it might be lying. IRCnet nowadays says CASEMAPPING=ascii, which I guess means just A-Z → a-z translation.
08:33:58 <fizzie> It's just -3 to the sizes, though.
08:34:09 <fizzie> !perl use bignum; $s += 32*(42**$_) foreach (0 .. 15); print $s;
08:34:10 <EgoBot> 73173658289716097933147360
08:50:38 <Deewiant> 5" +q"f2+'a4'@*+1",A@"**+'15' ")y/"6'@'Y3'@*+**+****+*******
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09:49:49 <Vorpal> so yeah the weird mapping
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09:52:17 <Phantom_Hoover> 15:04:37 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: you're making me want to create an esolang inspired by that syntax ← I once tried, but that was for the export system.
09:53:36 <fizzie> Strange that freenode, which is otherwise very modernized, still keeps the "old" case-mapping, while IRCnet, which tends to be very "conservative" sort of place, doesn't.
09:54:42 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: IRC's legacy thing where {|} are equal to [\] in nicknames.
09:55:13 <fizzie> (Since nicknames are compared case-insensitively, and those characters are åäö and ÅÄÖ in one old 7-bit Finnish encoding.
09:56:21 <fizzie> Yes, but it's the wrong way around.
09:56:28 <fizzie> {|} are the lowercase characters.
09:56:53 <fizzie> Well, no, you can't actually *see* that, but it's that way in the ToUpper/ToLower tables.
09:58:00 <fizzie> Similarly ~ is lowercase ^, but that doesn't matter so much because ~ is not legal in nicknames. It might matter in some other context.
10:01:14 <fizzie> fis@iris:~$ echo åäö | iconv -t FI
10:01:21 <fizzie> Nice that iconv still has that thing, too.
10:01:36 <fizzie> (At least this version. Something I tried it on didn't.)
10:02:37 <fizzie> Yes. Not very programmer-friendly, but there's not that much "useless" characters in ASCII.
10:03:35 <fizzie> I doubt anyone actually wrote code in that encoding, though. I've mostly seen it in BBSy contexts.
10:04:29 <fizzie> Even there files tended to be handled separately, and moved over ZMODEM or something that does 8-bit octets.
10:07:49 <fizzie> I think I was about to say either "8-bit bytes" or "octets", and managed to produce a hybrid.
10:09:21 <Ilari> Heh... I see some POS systems print product names containing ä using those [ characters...
10:10:25 <fizzie> Oh, I was thing of a completely other four-letter S word.
10:10:42 <fizzie> (Also "piece" instead of "point".)
10:12:00 <fizzie> <span lang="fi">Mutta eiväthän ääkköset ole enää ongelma!</span>
10:32:22 <Vorpal> argh I seem to lack some kernel option for blktrace, but I can't find which one
10:32:39 <Vorpal> /sys/kernel/debug is there, but /sys/kernel/debug/block/ is not...
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10:35:34 <fizzie> BLK_DEV_IO_TRACE perhaps?
10:37:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, trying to locate it
10:38:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, is there any slowdown when not in use hm?
10:39:16 <fizzie> This is a complete guess, but I'd go with "perhaps some, but probably not much".
10:41:27 <Vorpal> still I'm wondering what the heck is causing IO more or less all the time
10:42:38 <Vorpal> here we go *compiles kernel*
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10:47:57 <fizzie> I think blktrace's in-kernel infra is done with the "kernel markers" thing, which I believe are pretty low-overhead when not in use, though maybe not completely invisible like kprobes.
10:53:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, great... it just displays kcryptd.... How completely useless
10:54:17 <fizzie> Can you trace at bit higher level? The dm-crypt devices are block devices too, after all.
10:54:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, I did it on /dev/mapper/root
10:55:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, it seems all writes are dumped onto flush-252:0 or kcryptd while reads go to the apps that did it
10:55:23 <Vorpal> tested by catting a large file and also by then teeing it to another file
10:55:52 <fizzie> That's a bit strange, but perhaps understandable. The actual write-to-disk act is a bit decoupled from the application requests.
10:56:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, well... my goal is figuring out what apps wake up the disk from sleep in my laptop
10:56:57 <fizzie> What if you temporarily mount it with -O sync? (This may mean horrible amount of disk-trashing and slowness, though.)
10:57:31 <fizzie> -o; I don't know where I remembered -O from.
10:57:43 <fizzie> It might still not catch the application, though.
10:58:15 <Vorpal> oh it does in one case, but not in another one
10:59:00 <Vorpal> rsyslogd, konsole, jbd2/dm-0-8 and flush-252:0 Oh and swapper(0)
10:59:16 <Vorpal> what is swapper? it is not the swap device... so it can't be that
11:00:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, can you somehow get the file out of it? I'm using btrace with -s for per-program stats
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11:00:55 <fizzie> I don't really know. Probably not, since it's done at the block device level; though I guess with knowledge of the file system you could reverse-map blocks back to files.
11:01:13 <fizzie> Some sort of VFS-level tracing thing sounds more suitable for this, but I'm not sure what there is on that level.
11:01:26 <Vorpal> I guess lsof should be able to help with figuring out what files are open at least
11:02:18 <Vorpal> konsole has 289 files open. Most looks like pipes and some mmaped fontconfig things, and lots of *.so
11:02:41 <Vorpal> well, I can ignore /usr, since there is nothing writable for it there
11:06:59 <fizzie> I remember looking for a nice VFS-level IO tracing tool earlier too, and I don't think I had much luck in finding one then.
11:08:01 <Vorpal> unix sockets on the file system, those wouldn't cause any writing would they?
11:08:17 <Vorpal> it's pretty much that and $HOME/.xsession-errors left after elimination
11:10:12 <Vorpal> hm lsof does not show fd flags
11:10:41 <fizzie> Mhmmm, have you that thing mounted with noatime?
11:11:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, due to some apps screwing up with noatime
11:12:07 <fizzie> There are reasonably few of those, but I guess relatime is a good compromise anyway.
11:12:27 <Vorpal> well now I can't check any more, since it is on AC it decided to start cronjobs
11:12:42 <Vorpal> so atm all I will see is mandb
11:12:56 <Vorpal> yes I remounted without the sync flag since then
11:13:27 <fizzie> I don't see how actual write/read on a unix socket would cause any filesystem writes, but it exists as a file so perhaps metadata updates. Doesn't sound very likely.
11:15:09 <fizzie> There's that "fsnotify" thing that I think should be usable for tracing all operations over an entire filesystem (unlike dnotify/inotify where you'd have to watch each directory separately), but I'm not sure if there's sensible userland tools for it.
11:17:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, btw, do you happen to know if nvidia works with the new 2.6.35 kernel?
11:18:01 <fizzie> Haven't tried, but there's usually a patch floating out there somewhere very soon.
11:18:39 <Vorpal> well, it builds against it
11:18:44 <Vorpal> doesn't mean it works nicely though
11:19:48 <fizzie> I've been running the Ubuntu stock kernel lately on the only box I have with a monitor, so... for some reason there hasn't been any pressing need to twiddle with any settings.
11:20:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, well I'm updating on my arch linux desktop as well, and I run vanilla there
11:20:26 <Vorpal> the arch kernel only has like one or two small patches anyway
11:21:52 <Vorpal> You have mail in /var/spool/mail/arvid
11:21:58 <Vorpal> Alpine finished -- Closed empty folder "INBOX"
11:22:08 <Vorpal> whatever sent that first notification failed
11:24:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway on my ubuntu laptop I have like three separate things to build out of tree after kernel upgrade: tp_smapi (thinkpad stuff) using some "module-assistant" tool, backported and slightly patched wireless drivers (manual), virtualbox kernel module (supposedly automatic but often fails)
11:24:56 <Vorpal> (fails as in fails to run, not as in compile error)
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11:26:40 <fizzie> Someone has done something sensible to DKMS on Ubuntu, though: it used to take a horrible amount of time (multiple seconds!) on boot-up to do who-knows-what, but it no longer does. Possibly they've moved some stuff to the hooks it runs when installing new kernels.
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11:36:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Although I've had a couple of boots hang lately, so...
11:44:14 <Vorpal> on desktop it is dm-1, dm-2 and dm-3 that are being written to. Those are home, var and tmp hm
11:45:33 <Vorpal> oh well, /home is irc logs... or at least part of the activity on there is.
11:49:25 * Phantom_Hoover wonders why CL's standard doesn't require tail call elimination.
11:49:58 <Phantom_Hoover> It's hardly a taxing requirement, compared to piles of mud like LOOP and FORMAT.
11:57:59 <fizzie> It might be somewhat tricky if your implementation is to compile into a higher-level language that doesn't do tail calls.
11:59:28 <fizzie> I'm thinking mostly C here. Still, I doubt Scheme's tail-call necessities have ever stopped anyone from implementing it. (I've seen non-conformant non-tail-callsy Schemes, though.)
12:00:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, C is hardly higher level compared to CL ;P
12:00:37 <Vorpal> (yeah that isn't what you meant, but that is what you said!)
12:01:07 <fizzie> I thought about clarifying, but...
12:03:45 <Vorpal> what happens if you mmap a file and then close the fd before munmapping it?
12:09:32 <fizzie> It might keep the file "open" still, much like what happens if you close a dup'd fd, but that's just a guess.
12:10:48 <fizzie> "The mmap() function adds an extra reference to the file associated with the file descriptor fildes which is not removed by a subsequent close() on that file descriptor. This reference is removed when there are no more mappings to the file." -- SUSv2, http://opengroup.org/onlinepubs/007908775/xsh/mmap.html
12:13:09 <fizzie> (I don't have the POSIX pdfs handily downloaded here at work.)
12:13:25 <fizzie> (And can never remember where they were in the web.)
12:14:25 <fizzie> http://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/functions/mmap.html apparently. It's the same text there, though.
12:14:49 <fizzie> Except that it says "shall add" instead of "adds".
12:15:07 <Vorpal> btw how does the kernel talk to hardware? I was reading dmesg after kernel upgrade and saw: "[ 0.000000] Detected use of extended apic ids on hypertransport bus", it makes me wonder how it does that
12:15:44 <fizzie> I haven't been keeping up on hardware interfaces at all.
12:15:59 <fizzie> A lot of it is memory-mapped instead of I/O ports nowadays, I believe.
12:16:00 <Vorpal> right, it was aimed at the channel in general
12:16:13 <Vorpal> fizzie, well considering hypertransport it very likely is
12:18:06 <Vorpal> wtf at "[ 0.000000] Aperture too small (32 MB) than (64 MB)"
12:18:16 <Vorpal> it said on the line above it was 256 MB
12:18:27 <Vorpal> but the wtf here was the spelling
12:18:35 <Vorpal> or more correctly the lack of grammar
12:21:41 <fizzie> That's what you get when you leave error messages up to programmers.
12:21:50 <fizzie> Especially hairy kernel programmers. (That's another tautology.)
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12:24:40 <fizzie> The cpu-core local APIC is talked to via a 4k memory-mapped APIC register space, and the addresses for that are set by a particular MSR. I wouldn't be surprised if it's like that for other close-to-processor things too.
12:27:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, actually I believe it might be due to Japanese programmers. Reading kernel changelog I have come to the conclusion that many Japanese programmers have a most curious grammar
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12:33:05 <Vorpal> [ 1.844705] loop: module loaded <-- um, it is compiled in XD
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12:34:28 <Vorpal> coppro, your cloak, it does nothing:
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12:34:47 <Vorpal> well, your second one that is
12:34:55 <Vorpal> the first one I don't know, looks strange
12:37:25 <fizzie> Kernel sources are always nice reading.
12:37:37 <fizzie> if (bpp == 24) { /* sorry */ } else { ...
12:38:12 <fizzie> It's at least nice that they're sorry.
12:38:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, I still think #define SECONDS_PER_MINUTE 60 from the freebsd pc speaker driver is the best wtf from kernel sources I have seen so far
12:38:28 <Vorpal> at least it wasn't a runtime variable
12:39:03 <Vorpal> [ 5.987224] input: PC Speaker as /devices/platform/pcspkr/input/input4
12:39:13 <Vorpal> how is the pc speaker an input device?
12:40:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh and they fail at locking for kernel messages:
12:40:16 <Vorpal> [ 6.755445] md2: detected capacity change from 0 to 995702931456
12:40:16 <Vorpal> [ 6.755460] md2: unknown partition table
12:40:16 <Vorpal> [ 6.794998] unknown partition table
12:40:27 <Vorpal> the first and the last line I think are the same
12:40:36 <Vorpal> only way that makes any sense at all
12:41:14 <fizzie> Might be a performance thing.
12:41:31 <Vorpal> it repeats the unknown partition table for md2 several times btw
12:41:44 <Vorpal> which is quite logical, since it contains a lvm pv
12:41:56 <fizzie> And I think the speaker-as-an-input-device thing could be related to input-device-layer beeps.
12:42:34 <Vorpal> [ 31.376013] sixxs: no IPv6 routers present <-- how absurd. It is an IPv6 tunnel...
12:42:43 <Vorpal> well, the tun interface for the tunnel
12:43:36 <fizzie> You can still run addrconf over it; the message is related to that.
12:44:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, btw a strange thing I noticed when starting X, is that it resets the acoustic management thingy on the harddrives. I fail to see how.
12:44:15 <Vorpal> [ 260.048439] ata1.00: configured for UDMA/133
12:44:15 <Vorpal> [ 260.048448] ata1: EH complete
12:44:15 <Vorpal> [ 260.236441] ata2.00: configured for UDMA/133
12:44:15 <Vorpal> [ 260.236452] ata2: EH complete
12:44:38 <Vorpal> this happened on 2.6.34 too
12:44:51 <fizzie> Strange. Maybe a side effect of some other hardware-initialization/query thing? Who knows.
12:45:11 <fizzie> Peeking at my boot-time dmesgs too, on the single-core Atom box: "ACPI: NR_CPUS/possible_cpus limit of 1 reached. Processor 1/0x1 ignored."
12:45:37 <fizzie> No idea. I don't even know if that latter index is 0-based or not.
12:45:39 <Vorpal> fizzie, my kernel is compiled without SMP support on the desktop, since it is single core and custom kernel
12:46:04 <fizzie> There is HT on the Atom, at least. I don't remember about the kernel side.
12:46:15 <Vorpal> well that would explain it
12:46:19 <Vorpal> it ignored the second core
12:47:01 <fizzie> I wouldn't think hyperthreading to show up as a separate processor in ACPI though, but I guess it might.
12:49:36 <fizzie> ata2.00: ATA-0: ELITE PRO CF CARD 16GB, Ver2.19K, max UDMA/100 -- the poor man's SSD.
12:49:53 <fizzie> (There's a compact flash card inside.)
12:51:22 <fizzie> I don't have a pcspeaker input device, but I have this other sort of beep: input: HDA Digital PCBeep as /devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1b.0/input/input2
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12:53:09 <fizzie> Heh, CPUID strings from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CPUID -- "AMDisbetter!" - early engineering samples of AMD K5 processor
12:53:27 <fizzie> Then they went with the boring AuthenticAMD, but I guess it at least is still a ripoff of GenuineIntel.
12:55:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, that is less UDMA than my sata drives
12:55:24 <fizzie> Hey, it's a compactflash card; cut it some slack.
12:55:33 <fizzie> It's not like it's going to saturate the bus anyway.
12:56:00 <Vorpal> fizzie, a bit strange on my thinkpad, DVD is UDMA/133, hdd is UDMA/100
12:56:13 <Vorpal> on my desktop the dvd is UDMA/33, but then it is also PATA
12:59:06 <fizzie> The sensible way around on this work-workstation.
12:59:21 <fizzie> ata1.00: ATA-8: Hitachi HDP725016GLA380, GMBOA5BA, max UDMA/133; ata2.00: ATAPI: PLDS DVD+/-RW DH-16A6S, YD11, max UDMA/100.
13:00:54 <fizzie> "agpgart-intel 0000:00:00.0: detected 32764K stolen memory". Hey, who's been stealing my memory?!
13:01:15 <fizzie> Or possibly the IT folks here have been installing stolen goods into the boxen.
13:01:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, what sort of GPU? It should perhaps be shared video memory?
13:02:45 <Vorpal> [ 0.758976] agpgart-intel 0000:00:00.0: Intel Mobile Intel® GM45 Express Chipset
13:02:45 <Vorpal> [ 0.759959] agpgart-intel 0000:00:00.0: detected 32764K stolen memory
13:03:02 <Vorpal> well strange it says agpgart, I'm 99% certain it is PCIe
13:04:18 <fizzie> It's some Intel integrated, I guess.
13:05:40 <fizzie> Intel "Q45/Q43", whatever it's like
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13:23:30 <oerjan> <Vorpal> is there anything like ! except for plus rather than multiplication?
13:24:07 <Phantom_Hoover> There's no special notation, because there's a nice closed form.
13:24:54 <oerjan> i think i may have seen /\n (/\ here being a triangle)
13:26:06 <oerjan> also binomial coefficient n+1 over 2
13:26:34 <fizzie> Here the question was more about the sum of a geometric series, $ \sum_{k=0}^n 35*45^k = 35 \frac{45^{k+1} - 1}{45 - 1}$.
13:27:26 <fizzie> For some reason I hadn't realized EgoBot has a handy !perl too.
13:27:44 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, .XCompose?
13:27:56 <Vorpal> does that work in any other app?
13:28:02 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Did you try the XIM thing?
13:28:09 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, how curious. File a bug?
13:28:18 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, no, because I wasn't able to work out what it was.
13:28:44 <fizzie> Vorpal: "It's not a bug, it's a feature." GTK+ has a hardcoded compose table, and they know it already.
13:30:17 <fizzie> The XIM thing is to stick export GTK_IM_MODULE="xim" into some suitable place, but it also means you might lose some GTK-specific input finery.
13:31:02 <fizzie> What was what about geometric series?
13:31:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, why do they hard code it
13:31:13 <Vorpal> how can that be a feature?
13:31:53 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Well, it's true, isn't it?
13:32:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, and what GTK specific input stuff would one lose?
13:32:33 <Phantom_Hoover> It looks correct according to what I can remember of the finite calculus.
13:32:37 <fizzie> Vorpal: The hardcoded table is (or was, when it was made) an improvement over X's default tables; and I guess they wanted it also to be locale-*in*sensitive, to be more harmonious across locales.
13:33:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, that seems backwards. Besides it is afaik missing pi and many math symbols
13:33:11 <Vorpal> which are the ones I'm actually interested in on compose
13:33:31 <fizzie> So is/was the X table, I think.
13:33:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, that is exactly why I want to shoot the people who did it.
13:33:59 <Phantom_Hoover> "We're going to hardcode the compose table and leave all the interesting symbols out!"
13:34:26 <fizzie> And there's a GTK-specific unicode composition thing; ctrl-shift-u + string of hex digits with ctrl-shift held down composes a Unicode character. There might be more stuff for more complicated languages, I don't know about that.
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13:38:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, compose p i would be nice
13:40:02 <Vorpal> fizzie, but what will I be missing with xim?
13:41:46 <fizzie> Whatever you get with SCIM, which I think is what it uses otherwise. I have no idea what that is, since my language is so trivial to input.
13:41:58 <fizzie> At least that Unicode thing I mentioned, I think.
13:43:12 <fizzie> Orrrr... or is it so that the hardcoded composite table is only in GTK_IM_MODULE=gtk-im-context-simple. It could be so, too.
13:47:37 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: From what I can tell, in a 'buntu system you should use "im-switch -s default-xim" to make a user-specific "default Gnome and Qt to use XIM" setting.
13:48:17 <fizzie> It seems to mangle some environment variables that xinit sets, but I don't know how the user-level customizations happen.
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14:02:38 <fizzie> You did restart your X, right?
14:03:05 <fizzie> Well, you ping-timeouted.
14:03:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, XChat seems to have problems with handling quits gracefully.
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14:04:33 <fizzie> You could echo $GTK_IM_MODULE in a xterm to see if it even managed to put that variable in. Oh, and also to run a GTK app manually with that, something like "GTK_IM_MODULE=xim xchat", and see if the textfields there understand .Xcompose.
14:04:51 <fizzie> (If not, then I don't have many leftover suggestions.)
14:06:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Launching xterm from gnome-terminal doesn't work, but it does when I use alt-f2.
14:07:56 <fizzie> Heh-eh. And the manual variable-setting?
14:08:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Now I need to make it be set when GNOME starts, though.
14:10:28 <fizzie> Well, gnome-session startup scripts source ~/.gnomerc before starting, so you can put an export command there.
14:11:14 <fizzie> It's ran with ".", so just write export GTK_IM_MODULE=xim there.
14:11:43 <fizzie> If you want to undo whatever im-switch messed up, you can remove the ~/.xinput.d directory it makes. I don't think there should be anything else than im-switch's mess in there. (But maybe rename it for one X restart before outright deleting it.)
14:15:39 <fizzie> Hhheh. You can try that "-z all_ALL" flag to im-switch if you feel like it.
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15:25:11 <cpressey> Gregor: I got music! Finally! Thanks for your advice.
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15:34:50 <Vorpal> cpressey, found a nice soundfont?
15:35:13 <cpressey> Vorpal: The "Chorium" one Gregor suggested sounds fine
15:35:21 <Vorpal> cpressey, isn't that piano only?
15:35:25 <Vorpal> or was that another one
15:35:49 <cpressey> Vorpal: I hope not, otherwise that piano sounded a lot like a bassoon.
15:36:37 <Vorpal> cpressey, how large is the file? Over 100 MB right?
15:36:55 <cpressey> Vorpal: I don't remember. Probably. It took a while to download.
15:37:58 <Vorpal> cpressey, is it too much to hope for that you are good at decoding routing tables?
15:38:10 <Vorpal> I'm trying to make sense of my ipv6 routing table.
15:38:14 <cpressey> Vorpal: Yes, it's too much to hope for.
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16:04:06 <cpressey> I love how the standard icon for "save" in our culture is still the 3-1/2" floppy disc...
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16:24:39 <Gregor> http://gizmodo.com/5614433/this-is-the-first-imax-3d-porn-movie-yes-imax-3d-porn "I don't know how many people would like to watch a gigantic penis waving in 3D a few centimeters from their faces"
16:26:32 <Vorpal> Gregor, I invoke Rule 34 on IMAX itself!
16:51:13 <Zuu> Gregor, not a penis, but maybe a boob :>
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17:51:50 <Vorpal> I have a macbook here that claims it get an ip from dhcp from the wrong segment
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18:21:02 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> I have a macbook here that claims it get an ip from dhcp from the wrong segment <-- fixed by restarting router -_-
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18:46:02 <Phantom_Hoover> What's the current state of the art in cracking SHA512?
18:48:25 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, last I checked it was "har har, good luck"
18:48:51 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, that would take forever
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18:50:17 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, as far as I heard it is likely your CPU will be gone due to decay before you break the SHA512 by brute force on current state of the art PCs.
18:50:48 <Vorpal> and that was assuming some reasonably optimised implementation in C iirc
18:51:13 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well I think it was for an 650 MB ISO in that case
18:51:53 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well yes, but even assuming passwords it is probably going to take way too long to be feasible, assuming passwords are shorter than ISOs in general :P
18:52:11 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm why are you asking this?
18:52:26 <Vorpal> besides for passwords it will probably be salted
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19:01:43 <fizzie> Perl's "bytecode" is also not very low-level: the parsing is done, but the bytecode form is a (bit optimized) parse tree; it's pretty far from something like JVM bytecode. (Or Perl 6 and the Parrot VM, for that matter.)
19:03:27 <Vorpal> even further from that
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19:05:28 <fizzie> There used to be a separate, experimental set of tools for compiling to the bytecode separately, loading and executing it, as well as a translation to C, but those were dropped from the Perl 5.10 distribution.
19:05:39 <fizzie> "perlcc, the byteloader and the supporting modules (B::C, B::CC, B::Bytecode, etc.) are no longer distributed with the perl sources. Those experimental tools have never worked reliably, and, due to the lack of volunteers to keep them in line with the perl interpreter developments, it was decided to remove them instead of shipping a broken version of those. The last version of those modules can be found with perl 5.9.4."
19:09:08 <fizzie> You can run something like perl -MO=Concise -e '$a = $b+42;' to see a bit what the bytecode looks like.
19:10:16 <Vorpal> never seen this heavy rain before
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19:16:35 <pikhq> fizzie: Few interpreters have low-level bytecode.
19:17:22 <fizzie> Perhaps that is so. I have no clue what Python gets mangled to, for example.
19:17:33 <pikhq> More typically, you're just wanting to make interpreting faster than walking a parse tree.
19:20:04 <fizzie> Python's bytecode seems to be for a rather low-level stack-based VM.
19:20:35 <fizzie> Based on the opcode list at http://docs.python.org/library/dis.html anyway.
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19:21:15 <fizzie> On the other hand, the BASIC's I've known mostly just tokenize commands and that's about it.
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19:27:22 <cpressey> What's so slow about walking a (threaded) parse tree? The only thing I can think of is that it's bulkier and so will have worse cache performance.
19:27:40 <Phantom_Hoover> SSE plausibly might, but I can't recall any single instruction for it
19:29:37 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: I don't think it does.
19:29:59 <fizzie> Your generic SIMD that can do 128-bit values as pairs of two 64-bit double-precision floats will obviously help in manipulating complex numbers, though.
19:32:40 <pikhq> cpressey: It's bulkier, has worse cache performance, and often has more requisite branching.
19:32:58 <pikhq> Making it slower by constant factors.
19:34:44 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: TI's TMS320C64x+ has complex-multiply (of two pairs of signed, packed 16-bit values; it's a 16-bit fixpoint thing) opcodes, but it's not exactly a traditional "CPU", rather a DSP thing.
19:35:47 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, I think you could do it on SSE with a small number of instructions.
19:35:53 <cpressey> pikhq: Well, "requisite branching"... in a parse tree, you always get an absolute(ish) pointer to the next node. In a flat-memory VM, you can ++ an offset to get to the next instruction. I guess it does take slightly longer to load up the absolute pointer, than it does to increment and resolve the offset.
19:36:21 <pikhq> cpressey: Small constant factor.
19:36:54 <pikhq> The more *noticable* changes from bytecode are probably because that allows for optimisation.
19:37:12 <pikhq> Well. I guess you can directly optimise a parse tree, but that's a bit harder.
19:38:05 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Sure, and probably even less instructions with the new fused-multiply-add instruction sets ("a = a*b + c", basically) they've talked about. (And PPC has that particular operation, though I'm not sure if their SIMD extension, AltiVec, has.)
19:39:46 <fizzie> That TI DSP is also a.. was it a 8-way VLIW thing, so you could most likely do it in reasonably few cycles, even if there'd be several "instructions". Probably two, since you can do two general multiplications per cycle.
19:41:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Does SSE even give you the ability to work with packed doubles?
19:43:43 <fizzie> SSEn, for some number of n > 1, does, IIRC.
19:44:22 <fizzie> There's a MULPD listed in this overview.
19:44:46 <fizzie> "The MULPD instruction is an SSE2 instruction."
19:45:14 <cpressey> pikhq: Interesting. At any rate, bytecode doesn't seem to help CPython's speed much (compared to rb and perl which I hear are more parse-tree like.) lua and erl use a register machine model instead of a stack machine, and they both claim to have better performance because of it.
19:46:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, but SSE2 is the baseline nowdays
19:46:09 <fizzie> Parrot is a register-style VM too.
19:46:10 <Vorpal> all x86-64 has SSE2 at least
19:46:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, aren't most fast VMs that?
19:46:51 <pikhq> cpressey: Stack machine's simpler, register machine's simpler to optimise.
19:46:58 <Vorpal> cpressey, also erl? don't you mean beam?
19:47:00 <fizzie> I don't know about that; aren't most fast VMs JITting sort of thing?
19:47:18 <Vorpal> well, that is even faster
19:47:25 <Phantom_Hoover> So anyway, we need to have ac, ad, bc and bd to multiply two things.
19:47:30 <Vorpal> cpressey, I prefer pendant ;P
19:49:02 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, ac ad? HERETIC!
19:49:02 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: You might find SHUFPD helpful; like the name says, it shuffles the halves around.
19:49:13 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you are using multi-letter variables!
19:49:25 <Vorpal> for something as mathematical as multiplication
19:49:49 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you mean (a+bi)*(c+di), thus a, b, c and d?
19:50:08 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, see, no need to resort to multi-letter variables
19:50:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, it's to indicate the necessary multiplications.
19:50:52 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh, those looks like variables though
19:51:05 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yeah where did the i go there?
19:51:23 * cpressey stores i in a 64-bit register while no one is looking
19:51:35 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you need to keep track of the i. You could end up with them canceling each other out
19:51:53 <cpressey> Vorpal: Are you familiar with complex numbers?
19:52:07 <Vorpal> cpressey, yes, and I'm referring to multiplying with conjugate
19:52:19 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yes indeed
19:53:37 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, ah I see what you did there, you are discussing this on a rather lower level, while I'm thinking of symbolic manipulation like a CAS
19:53:55 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, that explains everything
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19:55:15 * Sgeo is Henry the VIIth he is
19:55:18 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, Phantom_Hoover, yes but it would be nonsensical not to treat it as ac-bd+adi+bci so you could remove terms symbolically in case it turned out that was possible. Such as ac=bd for example
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20:05:51 <cpressey> Most languages where you define named functions, it's like they have dynamic scope (for those function names). Especially if you can change them. I'm thinking Scheme's "define" here...
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20:10:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, assuming define is similar to CL's def* operators.
20:11:43 <Vorpal> cpressy: erlang and haskell use lexical scope for functions iirc
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20:12:49 <Vorpal> you can use a function before it is defined in erlang after all, as long as it is declared further down in the file everything is OK
20:12:53 <Vorpal> same goes for haskell iirc
20:13:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, in the sense that it only works if you've defined it earlier in the first file?
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20:14:22 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: dynamic binding of names. instead of lexical binding.
20:14:37 <cpressey> It's not really dynamic. I'm not explaining it well.
20:14:48 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, well, you can use let to make lexically scoped functions in Scheme anyway.
20:14:49 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> cpressy: erlang and haskell use lexical scope for functions iirc
20:14:53 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> you can use a function before it is defined in erlang after all, as long as it is declared further down in the file everything is OK
20:14:53 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> same goes for haskell iirc
20:14:59 <Vorpal> assuming that is the sense you meant
20:15:19 <Vorpal> cpressey, that is one way to interpret what you mean
20:15:25 <Vorpal> another would be runtime dynamic
20:15:42 <cpressey> Vorpal: that's not how I see it
20:15:49 <Vorpal> which doesn't apply very well to any compiled-to-low-enough-level language
20:15:56 <Vorpal> cpressey, then what do you mean
20:18:11 <Sgeo> A part of it boils down to "When someone saves your life, you belong to that person. She saved your life. Let's respect local customs!"
20:18:28 <Sgeo> (3rd episode of Stargate Infinity)
20:20:45 <Sgeo> And... internal inconsistency
20:21:16 <Sgeo> One or two episodes ago, the bad guys would apparently find it easy to keep chasing through the Stargate, but now it's difficult to determine last dialled addresses
20:21:33 <Sgeo> (The latter is more canonical in Stargate-verse, but SGI is very uncanonical anyway)
20:31:21 <Vorpal> Sgeo, this is completely out of context
20:31:33 <Sgeo> Stargate Infinity
20:31:44 <Vorpal> "<Sgeo> A part of it boils down to" <-- part of what?
20:31:57 <Sgeo> the episode's plot
20:31:59 <Vorpal> Sgeo, yes but you used "it" without defining what "it" referred to
20:32:27 <fizzie> It was a forward-referring it. Don't be so linear!
20:51:02 <FireFly> Vorpal, why the nick change?
20:53:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Is there an SSE instruction to add the two doubles in an xmm register and store the result in the low quadword?
21:00:51 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: HADDPD sort-of does it. HADDPD xmm1, xmm2/mem128 adds the two doubles of xmm1 and stores the result in low half of xmm1; but it also adds the two doubles of xmm2/mem128 and stores that result in high half of xmm1, so you lose that half if you needed it for something.
21:02:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, basically, if xmm0 is (a,b) and xmm1 is (c,d) I want xmm0 to be (a-b,c+d)
21:02:19 <fizzie> As for the negation, I don't know about that, but you can ADDSUBPD xmm1, xmm2/mem128 to simultaneously do xmm1:high += xmm2:high and xmm1:low -= xmm2:low, which is sort-of the same as ADDPD but with the second argument negated.
21:16:13 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: I don't know elisp. What Scheme does is definitely a kind of dynamic scope for "define", though. (Even though it's touted as a "lexically scoped Lisp" -- that doesn't apply to "define".)
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21:16:53 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, can you give me a code snippet to demonstrate what you're getting at?
21:17:51 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: http://pastie.org/1100763
21:18:02 <Vorpal> <FireFly> Vorpal, why the nick change? <-- why not
21:18:07 <cpressey> No "Scheme" markup on pastie.org. But there is "Go". Peasants!
21:18:23 <Vorpal> anyone has any experience with cross compiling the linux kernel here?
21:18:33 <FireFly> Vorpal, dunno, haven't noticed it before
21:18:50 <Vorpal> FireFly, well yeah, it is reasonably new
21:19:19 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: "k" is dynamically scoped.
21:19:53 <cpressey> In the sense that its meaning within r varies, yes.
21:21:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, it could keep the reference, but that's probably not what you'd expect.
21:21:56 <Sgeo> Does Common Lisp really suck that bad?
21:22:30 <Phantom_Hoover> It's far from perfect, but it's a pretty good language, all in all.
21:23:21 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: What I expect is that if a language touts itself as being "lexically scoped"... well, whatever.
21:24:10 <Warrigal> For me, the easiest scoping to understand is no scoping.
21:24:23 <Sgeo> Woo, just won apples2apples!
21:24:25 <Warrigal> Want a local variable? Find an object and attach a property to it.
21:24:35 <Warrigal> And, uh, it's really, really easy to make global variables.
21:24:45 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, it's lexically scoped in the sense that if you call a function inside a let block or similar construct, then that function can't access any of the variables in that block.
21:24:46 <Warrigal> Eew. I no longer like no-scoping.
21:25:10 <Warrigal> Because it makes it really, really easy to make global variables.
21:25:32 <Sgeo> Newspeak is pretty much the opposite, right?
21:25:35 <Vorpal> Warrigal, I thought you meant that was a bonus? though I agree it is horrible
21:26:30 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: I realize that. It's also dynamically scoped in the sense that if you call a function after a define, that function does access the names that you just (re)defined.
21:26:50 <Warrigal> Also, sometimes, scoping is pretty obvious. For example, function parameters should obviously be available to the function body.
21:28:01 <Warrigal> Now, how about Unlambda-style scoping? Variables are not allowed. Your program must consist entirely of built-in constants and literals.
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21:29:15 * cpressey starts singing that Bon Jovi song about "where the streets have no name"
21:30:17 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: I make no claims for this to be optimal, but here's one way: http://sprunge.us/XLYL -- you could perhaps get rid of some shuffling.
21:30:25 <cpressey> I think it's U2. The Bon Jovi song has some line about "the streets are the same, only the names have changed"
21:30:37 <Vorpal> cpressey, what are the examples of non-dynamically scoped languages then
21:30:42 <Vorpal> cpressey, haskell? erlang?
21:31:05 <Vorpal> cpressey, erlang is too excluding hot-swapping of modules
21:31:27 <Vorpal> cpressey, which is really kind of out-of-band compared to scoping
21:31:29 <Sgeo> Maybe I should learn Erlang at some point
21:31:30 <cpressey> Vorpal: that's why I didn't say Erlang
21:31:39 <Sgeo> I think I tried once
21:31:46 <Vorpal> cpressey, but I claim that is like unloading a *.so and then loading another
21:31:46 <Sgeo> Kind of gave up caring about it
21:31:56 <Vorpal> cpressey, haskell supports plugins and such
21:32:02 <Vorpal> thus dynamically scoped
21:32:31 <cpressey> Vorpal: OK, all languages that support that are dynamically scoped in this sense, then,
21:32:49 <fizzie> (It's a bit depressing that the actual ops (three: mulpd, mulpd, addsubpd) are fewer than move-around instructions (four: movddup, unpckhpd, 2*shufpd).)
21:32:53 <Vorpal> cpressey, yes, and in the sense that haskell is not dynamically scoped, so is erlang not
21:33:24 <cpressey> Vorpal: Yes - was I not clear when I said "all languages"?
21:33:41 <Vorpal> cpressey, well, there could be languages not supporting this
21:33:58 <Warrigal> Phantom_Hoover: I'm using "scoping" metaphorically.
21:34:06 <cpressey> Vorpal: Yes - was I not clear when I said "all languages" *in the phrase* "all languages that support this"?
21:35:06 <Warrigal> Unlambda has no variables; thus, an Unlambda-scoped language is a language that has no variables.
21:35:47 <Vorpal> cpressey, well I just wanted to point out that erlang is in fact as statically scoped as haskell. Then I replied to "all languages"
21:35:50 <fizzie> Maybe horizontal add/sub could help in the shuffling, though perhaps not so much since there's only one of each, and haddpd/hsubpd always performs at least two adds/subs.
21:36:12 <Vorpal> cpressey, actually, there is a useful notation of "static in the sense of haskell and erlang"
21:36:37 <Vorpal> cpressey, in both cases plugins/hot-swap-upgrades can be considered out of band activities
21:36:47 <Vorpal> that is not really part of the actual language and it's syntax
21:38:04 <cpressey> Vorpal: I assume you mean "notion". Calling it an "out-of-band activity" is just a form of handwaving imo.
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21:38:41 <Vorpal> cpressey, err yes notion
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21:38:56 <Vorpal> cpressey, and no it isn't really hand waving
21:39:44 <Vorpal> cpressey, it is not something which is done during normal operation, you need to perform some kind of loading of a new compiled file
21:39:50 <cpressey> Vorpal: Erlang processes are purely functional. Oh, you're using the process dictionary? Well, that's out of band.
21:40:07 <Vorpal> cpressey, well, I think there is a difference there. Oh also ETS
21:40:39 <cpressey> The point is, I can pick anything, call it "out of band" and not "normal", and say anything I want about the rest.
21:40:42 <Vorpal> cpressey, and I do not consider erlang to be pure. Pure with a few exceptions yes, but that doesn't make pure
21:41:07 <Vorpal> cpressey, well, it is out of band in much the same way as hardware replacement is. On a server with hot swap
21:41:18 <Vorpal> cpressey, also be careful when hotswapping cpus
21:41:42 <Vorpal> cpressey, oh and easy to damage too
21:42:07 <Vorpal> cpressey, I never hot swapped one myself but I watched someone do it
21:44:14 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: On the other hand, no-one is *forcing* your complex numbers to have the order (real,imag) in memory. You can save one shuffle (thanks to the addsubpd "direction") if you just keep your doubles the other way around: http://sprunge.us/KQCc
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21:47:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, what does addsubpd do?
21:47:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, also couldn't this be done better with SSE3 perhaps?
21:48:00 <fizzie> Vorpal: Given [a,b] in dst and [c,d] in src, it does dst <- [a+c,b-d]. Adds the high halves and subs the low ones.
21:48:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, how did they come up with that one
21:48:42 <fizzie> It's a reasonable thing!
21:49:00 <fizzie> And actually ADDSUBPD (as well as HADDPD/HSUBPD/MOVDDUP) *are* SSE3 instructions. Oh well.
21:49:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, so why not use them
21:50:22 <fizzie> "More specifically, instructions to add and subtract the multiple values stored within a single register have been added. These instructions simplify the implementation of a number of DSP and 3D operations."
21:50:39 <fizzie> They even mention complex numbers.
21:50:42 <fizzie> "MOVDDUP, MOVSHDUP, MOVSLDUP - These are also used for complex numbers, and can be helpful for wave calculation like sound."
21:51:28 <fizzie> I don't think 3DNow! (let's at least have the name right) even does double-precision.
21:51:32 <Vorpal> MOVSHDUP <-- Move Shadup?
21:51:48 <fizzie> "Move Single-Precision High and Duplicate".
21:51:59 <Vorpal> I prefer move and shut up :P
21:52:12 <Vorpal> prevents any MCE for 5 clock cycles ;P
21:52:40 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, it seems like such a stupid thing to leave out...
21:52:41 <fizzie> These at least have semi-pronounceable mnemonics; the packed-integer-data ops are sometimes worse. PUNPCKLQDQ?
21:53:52 <fizzie> "Unpack and Iterleave Low Quadwords" is what the title says, but...
21:54:55 <Vorpal> anyway SSE3 is a good baseline, unless you aim to support very old system
21:54:59 <Vorpal> in which case you want SSE
21:55:05 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, still a pure C fallback is best
21:55:07 <fizzie> PUNPCKLQDQ: pronounced pun-pucky-lucky-ducky.
21:55:15 <Vorpal> in case of you run on a pentium or such
21:55:36 <fizzie> I don't think this was for anything serious+
21:57:27 <fizzie> They instructions keep on getting more and more specialized, the larger numbers you put after SSE.
21:57:57 <fizzie> SSE4.1: "MPSADBW: Compute eight offset sums of absolute differences (i.e. |x0-y0|+|x1-y1|+|x2-y2|+|x3-y3|, |x0-y1|+|x1-y2|+|x2-y3|+|x3-y4|, ...); this operation is extremely important for modern HDTV codecs, and (see [5]) allows an 8x8 block difference to be computed in fewer than seven cycles."
21:58:19 <fizzie> They did add some dot products in, though.
21:58:24 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, so they have such pointless things as that, yet not even cmult?
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21:58:38 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, is this just some private software?
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21:58:51 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, shame on you for not releasing it then.
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21:59:07 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what? are you taking up our time for something pointless that isn't esolangs
21:59:18 <Phantom_Hoover> I just can't see why it's overlooked like this in favour of ridiculously specific instructions.
21:59:39 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Also single-instruction CRC32.
22:00:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, what is really needed is adding some 256 bit SIMD registers
22:00:35 <Vorpal> unless they done that already
22:01:26 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Vector_Extensions
22:01:31 <fizzie> Yes, with the clever mnemonic YMMn; it's one more than X, after all.
22:01:51 <Phantom_Hoover> "Further extensions to 512 or 1024 bits are expected in the future"
22:02:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Wow, they can ignore the quaternions, octonions and the sedenions as well.
22:02:33 <fizzie> Yeah, ZMMn for the 512-bit registers, but what will they call the next set?
22:03:03 <fizzie> ÅMMn, if they follow the usual Finnish alphabet order. Wow, that'd be the awesome.
22:03:14 <Vorpal> how does ipv6 autoconfig select ips
22:03:46 <Ilari> Hey, where did fungot go?
22:03:49 <pikhq> fizzie: Considering typical x86 naming conventions, RZMMn
22:04:27 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> Wow, they can ignore the quaternions, octonions and the sedenions as well. <-- um aren't they like rarely used these days?
22:04:35 <Vorpal> matrix stuff is what I would expect
22:05:00 <Phantom_Hoover> I suspect the sedenions have never been used for anything.
22:05:11 <fizzie> Vorpal: There's IPv6-ICMP router-advertisement messages which gives the network prefix, and the low 64 bits are usually built from the MAC address.
22:05:13 <cpressey> fizzie: Supra-ASCII opcode mnemonics WOULD be awesome.
22:05:58 <pikhq> Perhaps to make things more confusing, 新MMn.
22:06:10 <cpressey> And: liberation for sedenions NOW!
22:07:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, well that explains it
22:07:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, how comes we haven't yet run out of MACs btw
22:09:38 <coppro> because they are buig
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22:15:35 <alise> Hilarious, but unpronounceable.
22:15:59 <alise> I do not think that name will be effective for the cat. :P
22:16:30 <alise> Maybe I'll call one Felix 2: Electric Boogaloo and the other Shaggy Dog.
22:17:03 <fizzie> It's not full 48 bits, or free-form either; the first octet has two flag bits, and the entire first half is the manufacturer ID, leaving just 2^24 = 16M devices with any one ID.
22:17:32 <alise> fizzie: Brief context?
22:17:56 <alise> 1 Infinity Loop, Cupertino, CA.
22:18:14 <coppro> fizzie: but two different manufacturers could issue machines with the same "ID"
22:18:21 <coppro> and their addresses would be different
22:19:02 <fizzie> Sure, but it still means each different manufacturer will eat 2^24 device IDs, even if they only make a few. (Okay, so you won't get an organization ID if you only make a few, but *still*...)
22:19:17 <Vorpal> alise, speaking of cat, I implemented the (to my knowledge) first POSIX cat in an esolang.
22:19:27 <Vorpal> alise, save for -u which can't be done in befunge
22:19:37 <alise> Vorpal: How utterly exciting.
22:19:44 <alise> I have always wanted to see that.
22:19:51 <fizzie> (Incidentally, 3Com already has 41 organizational identifiers.)
22:20:27 <Vorpal> alise, it is also the first befunge program with a GPL header that I know of. And I did that only because it was a first. Otherwise I would have done BSD probably.
22:20:28 <alise> Yes, but you're not quite as exciting as AnMaster!
22:20:39 <alise> Vorpal: Oh wow, I can barely contain how amazing this is.
22:20:43 <Vorpal> alise, Phantom_Hoover's claim is not backed up by any evidence :P
22:20:47 <alise> Please have my fposix_babies.
22:20:58 <Vorpal> oh yeah forgot you hate posix
22:21:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, I posted the damn interpreter and program online"
22:21:12 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, only after I did it
22:21:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, that is what you say, and it is a HQ9+ish language
22:21:53 <Vorpal> as it is, it can only do cat
22:21:57 <Phantom_Hoover> GreaseMonkey, http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Phantom_Hoover
22:22:30 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, as for mine: http://sprunge.us/UcYL
22:23:26 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, well yes, I couldn't parse arguments or do file IO without that
22:23:37 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, I don't know any other esolang which allows that
22:24:02 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, actually b98 + FILE would have been enough, but STRN makes thing less painful
22:24:06 <alise> Vorpal: Do you realise that your accomplishment is an utterly pointless waste of time; a trivial, uninteresting program that proves and demonstrates nothing written in a language already known to have decent support for this kind of stuff, such that your only accomplishment is arranging commands in a two-dimensional grid, which you have not even done, as it fails to even look aesthetically pleasing? Also, you misspelled "triple".
22:24:35 <Vorpal> alise, do I look like I care about your opinion
22:24:43 <Vorpal> thanks for the comment correction however
22:24:50 <alise> Vorpal: You did when you excitedly told me all about it.
22:24:53 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, the words "pointless" and "waste of time" are not to be uttered on this channel.
22:25:09 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Look, look, I wrote cat in a language that's just like Befunge but it has an if loop instead of a while loop!
22:25:30 <alise> There's a reason this channel is #esoteric, not #pointless. That reason is that esoteric things are pointless /and/ interesting.
22:25:44 <Vorpal> alise woke up on wrong side of the bed (might be Swedish only idiom, not sure)
22:26:00 <GreaseMonkey> <Vorpal> alise woke up on wrong side of the bed (might be Swedish only idiom, not sure) <-- wow, we have that idiom too
22:26:03 <ais523> alise: Befunge has while loops?
22:26:05 <Vorpal> alise, so you don't find it interesting, who cares
22:26:12 <alise> ais523: Erm, I meant brainfuck.
22:26:14 <ais523> sure, it has loops in general, but if and while aren't separate constructs
22:26:22 <ais523> and in BF, that would be impressive
22:26:26 <alise> Vorpal: You seemed to care enough to bug me about it; the only point of this could be to generate a positive response from me
22:26:29 <Vorpal> ais523, no, I wrote the pseudo code for it with goto
22:26:31 <ais523> given that an if-version of BF would be impossible to loop in
22:26:34 <ais523> Vorpal: that's cheating
22:26:43 <alise> So, you care about my opinion, as long as it coincides with yours, thus boosting your already overinflated sense of ego due to writing this program.
22:26:48 <Vorpal> ais523, writing pseudo code first is not cheating
22:27:07 <Vorpal> ais523, it was just a way to figure out the best way to do it in befunge
22:27:19 <ais523> oh, I mean you can't add GOTO to BF and still call it the same lang
22:27:19 <Vorpal> specifically the argument parsing
22:27:27 <Vorpal> ais523, I talked about befunge
22:27:30 <Sgeo> Oh, alise is awake
22:27:37 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: really? without command-line args, you can cat everything, including NUL, if you have more than 8 bits and EOF=-1
22:27:46 <alise> Sgeo: I've always been awake. You know, the unit and all.
22:27:51 <Vorpal> ais523, and yes you can add it to befunge. It is called SUBR
22:28:58 <cpressey> Wait, I just looked at the source now. This so-called POSIX-compliant cat is only "mostly POSIX-conforming". What?
22:29:22 <cpressey> What's the point of "mostly" conforming to a standard?
22:29:30 <Vorpal> cpressey, because of -u
22:29:37 <Vorpal> cpressey, read list at end of source
22:29:43 <Vorpal> cpressey, those are limitations of befunge-98
22:29:47 <Vorpal> nothing I can do about them
22:29:58 <cpressey> Vorpal: So your cat *isn't* POSIX compliant.
22:30:05 <alise> Yay! You wrote a program whose only point is to confirm to an authorityless standard, and didn't even manage to do that.
22:30:06 -!- leBMD has joined.
22:30:07 <Vorpal> cpressey, it is as far as it is possible
22:30:23 <leBMD> Greetings, programmers of the esoteric variety.
22:30:27 <Vorpal> cpressey, and -u would depend on value returned by y
22:30:31 <Vorpal> cpressey, for the flags
22:30:32 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:30:44 <Vorpal> cpressey, if you want the other value change implementation ;P
22:30:53 <Vorpal> I could add a check that errors out of the buffering is wrong
22:30:55 <cpressey> Vorpal: There are probably hundreds of implementations of 'cat' in esolangs that are "as POSIX-compliant as possible" for the languages they're done in.
22:31:28 <Vorpal> cpressey, then you can say this is the most posix compliant one
22:31:29 -!- wareya has joined.
22:32:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, I think you'll find mine is POSIX-complianter.
22:32:08 <leBMD> What language are you talking about?
22:32:15 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yeah that you released after
22:32:20 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you are just being silly
22:32:23 * Sgeo finished depict
22:32:30 <Sgeo> with some spoilers >.>
22:32:33 <Vorpal> cpressey, and the first one in befunge-98 that is as posix compliant as possible
22:32:39 <alise> POSIX-compliant cat in Brainfuck: ,[.,]
22:32:46 <alise> It's as compliant as possible, because Brainfuck can't read files.
22:33:04 <leBMD> I'm workign on a text adventure in it, and gosh it takes a bit to type out the parsing routine
22:33:36 <Vorpal> leBMD, the mostly posix cat is at http://sprunge.us/UcYL
22:33:44 <Vorpal> cpressey, btw not even gnu cat implements -u
22:33:50 <leBMD> I've got it to read N, n, S, s, E, e, W and w, but I can't quite figure out how to do strings.
22:33:54 <Vorpal> no cat I found on any of my systems does it
22:34:02 <leBMD> and I mean string input, not output.
22:34:06 <Vorpal> cpressey, and the argument parsing is of no practical significance
22:34:27 <Vorpal> cpressey, since the null string is not a valid filename
22:34:44 <Vorpal> cpressey, thus in practise it makes no difference
22:34:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Write bytes from the input file to the standard output without delay as each is read. "
22:34:52 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yes 1p says that
22:35:07 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, but I checked GNU, FreeBSD and NetBSD cat's
22:35:09 <Sgeo> PSOX could always help...
22:35:17 <fizzie> leBMD: The easy way is to just use STRN fingerprint functions.
22:35:44 <leBMD> I've been doing character input
22:35:47 <Vorpal> Sgeo, it can't turn line buffered IO into unbuffered IO
22:36:11 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, cat -u file vs. cat file: what is the difference?
22:36:14 <leBMD> hm, maybe I don't know as much about 98 as I thought.
22:36:31 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I think it is unbuffered on both stdin and stdout for -u
22:36:47 <Vorpal> I could add a fingerprint which did it of course :P
22:37:16 <Vorpal> leBMD, implemented a 98 interpreter yet? I found that is the best way to learn the language
22:37:35 <fizzie> leBMD: There are these fingerprints you can load with (; they define commands for uppercase letters. STRN has line-based string input and output. But it's completely possible to do without, of course, especially if you need that little input.
22:37:38 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, *shrug*
22:38:03 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, find me a modern cat which does. MAAAYBE solaris is my guess. Of course you could dig up an old one which did
22:38:26 <leBMD> Okay, I maight do that.
22:38:34 <Vorpal> leBMD, that is a lot of work however
22:38:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, in any case, on a fully POSIX-compliant system, my cat program is POSIX compliant.
22:38:49 <Vorpal> leBMD, I wrote cfunge. Took me... over a year I think.
22:38:57 <Vorpal> leBMD, with all the fingerprints I support
22:39:03 <Vorpal> not continuous of course
22:39:04 <alise> leBMD: BTW, CCBI 2 is better.
22:39:05 <leBMD> for general directions, I've just been copying and subtracting UTF-32 numbers for the characters, and then doing a _ or |
22:39:09 <alise> (Someone's gotta evangelise.)
22:39:10 -!- sshc has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
22:39:20 <leBMD> I've been using ccbi
22:39:22 <Vorpal> alise, no evangelising please :P
22:39:35 <Vorpal> also I never claimed ccbi2 was bad
22:39:42 <alise> Vorpal: You're evangelising.
22:39:49 <alise> You're just being more subtle about it.
22:40:04 <Vorpal> alise, I said implementing befunge98 was a great way to learn it
22:40:12 <Vorpal> and that when I wrote mine, cfunge, it took x time
22:40:12 <alise> Yes, you are, you wanted leBMD to recognise your achievement in creating cfunge.
22:40:21 <Vorpal> alise, you are paranoid
22:40:46 <Vorpal> you see evangelists around every corner
22:40:47 <alise> It's not paranoia. Even if I'm wrong it's definitely not paranoia.
22:40:53 <Vorpal> alise, yeah since I'm paranoid, that says a LOT
22:40:53 -!- sshc has joined.
22:40:53 <alise> That isn't what paranoia is.
22:41:07 <Vorpal> alise, sure it is, not the tinfoil variant, true
22:41:13 <Vorpal> but paranoia for evangelists
22:41:22 <alise> Please look up "paranoia". Thanks.
22:41:44 <Vorpal> sigh.... why are you so annoying today?
22:41:47 <cpressey> leBMD: It's impossible to learn *funge-98 fully, if you include extensions, because there's no limit to them.
22:42:01 <Vorpal> stop trolling, and yes you are. Quite subtle
22:42:15 <leBMD> I've just been using plain ol' funge, without extensions.
22:42:42 <Vorpal> cpressey, true. When using JSTR I needed to look up the argument order
22:42:44 <alise> Vorpal: If I called you paranoid, would you even understand what irony is?
22:42:54 <alise> It's an important first step on the road to recognising the irony in situations.
22:43:00 <Vorpal> alise, those are not connected
22:43:08 <Vorpal> alise, and I fully admit I'm paranoid
22:43:13 <Vorpal> I never claimed anything else
22:43:26 <alise> Interesting. So paranoia is a reason to dismiss me, but not a reason to dismiss you?
22:43:47 <leBMD> You know, arguments on the internet are like the special olympics.
22:43:49 <alise> I would, but, you know, it's kind of fun.
22:44:05 <Vorpal> alise, if I call you paranoid it says a lot, since I'm paranoid as well.
22:44:12 <Phantom_Hoover> This channel is not for you to amuse yourself by arguing.
22:44:16 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and no it isn't fun
22:44:33 <Vorpal> actually *puts alise on special list of client*
22:44:39 <alise> Vorpal: You haven't answered my question, only avoided it.
22:44:49 <Vorpal> there, no more messages from alise
22:44:51 <alise> I wonder if he realises that I like him not responding to my messages.
22:45:01 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yes do not feed the trolls and so on
22:45:05 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, not always that easy
22:45:36 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, shut up, do not feed the troll ;P
22:45:48 <leBMD> CAPS LOCK IS CRUISE CONTROL FOR COOL.
22:46:24 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Because it's fun to eke out new pieces of hilarious stupidity from him.
22:46:34 <alise> They flow with ease if you know how.
22:47:10 <leBMD> I wonder if it's possible to make a roguelike in funge, complete with proceedurally-generated map...
22:47:18 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, it's for SERIOUS BUSINESS.
22:47:36 <ais523> leBMD: same with any TC language
22:47:46 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: But that's less fun, because you don't get the odd other person adding a sarcastic slight against AnMaster without him noticing.
22:47:50 <ais523> if you mean "would it be particularly difficult in Befunge", I don't think so
22:48:00 <alise> (Not that I'm naming names. Phantom_Hoover. leBMD. Uh, I guess I'm naming names now. fungot. EgoBot.)
22:48:03 <Phantom_Hoover> leBMD, well, you'd probably have a few problems with curses, for the reasons Vorpal stated above.
22:48:07 <leBMD> I wonder how you would go about reprinting the map with each new movement.
22:48:18 <alise> cfunge rejects any program containing the sequences "fuck" or "shit"
22:48:24 <alise> this can be problematic
22:48:31 <alise> Okay, that was lame.
22:48:57 <leBMD> but how would I go about displaying the difference in character position?
22:49:22 <Phantom_Hoover> leBMD, you have the stuff to go on the screen in memory.
22:49:30 <leBMD> maybe I could have it check for @, and the if you say, hit "h" then it would locate @, replace it with . and print @ to the left.
22:49:32 <fizzie> You could also manually output widely-enough-supported cursor control codes.
22:49:47 <Phantom_Hoover> When something changes, alter the buffer, then print it all to the terminal.
22:49:52 <alise> leBMD: presumably it would maintain the state internally
22:49:59 <alise> then handle displaying it separately
22:50:47 <leBMD> maybe it would save the map to a file, and then display it with you in the spawn point, and then go on a sort of grid-system to figure out how to change the display.
22:50:55 <leBMD> Boy, this sounds like a lot of work.
22:51:03 <alise> Befunge has memory, you know.
22:51:27 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Not *that* ideal...
22:51:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Just demarcate a section of fungespace for the screen buffer, then print it
22:51:32 <leBMD> but, wouldn't it be a little rought workign with the map on the stack?
22:51:37 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Well, perhaps.
22:51:44 <alise> leBMD: So put it at a position instead.
22:52:04 -!- derdon has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
22:52:10 <leBMD> gah, I feel like a noob. Are you talking about printing the map onto the source?
22:52:28 <Phantom_Hoover> leBMD, in Befunge, the code space is readable and writable.
22:52:50 <leBMD> I've just never made it self-alter before, so I don't know it's full potential.
22:52:56 <Phantom_Hoover> So you can just have an 80x24 rectangle somewhere, and then write to that.
22:53:06 <alise> leBMD: look at the p/g instructions
22:53:14 <alise> http://quadium.net/funge/spec98.html
22:54:52 <leBMD> And this is where I'm more familiar with 93. When it says "relative to the storage offset" what does that mean?
22:54:57 <Phantom_Hoover> You could even put the screen buffer so that a runtime display of fungespace would be the IO in itself.
22:55:29 <cpressey> leBMD: You can just ignore that part to start.
22:55:44 <cpressey> leBMD: The idea is that p and g work like they do in 93.
22:56:14 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> Fight with Vorpal in a PM if you want to, <-- nah, I ignored all, not just channel
22:56:29 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> leBMD, well, you'd probably have a few problems with curses, for the reasons Vorpal stated above. <-- NCRS?
22:56:52 <Vorpal> leBMD, using the NCRS fingerprint you have basic curses
22:57:05 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, NCURses
22:57:21 <Vorpal> pretty sure ccbi supports it too
22:57:36 <FireFly> Guess the language: (![]+[])[+[]]+([][![]]+[])[+!+[]+!+[]+!+[]+!+[]+!+[]]+(!![]+[])[+!![]]+(!![]+[])[+[]+!+[]+!+[]+!+[]]+(![]+[])[+[]]+(![]+[])[+[]+!+[]+!+[]]+(+!![]/+[]+[])[+[]+!+[]+!+[]+!+[]+!+[]+!+[]+!+[]+!+[]]
22:57:43 <fizzie> If it's NCRS, how can it be "NCURses"?
22:58:07 <alise> Because Befunge-110 introduces NCUR, the new, revised edition of NCRS!
22:58:20 <alise> Brought to you by CCBI Enterprises.
22:58:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, those both works
22:58:28 <alise> cfunge Enterprises.
22:59:02 <Ilari> Heh: Current estimated "IPv4 doomsday": 31st May 2011 (285 days from now).
22:59:02 <leBMD> >> it's been too long since I used vim.
22:59:15 <alise> That is the name of the language.
22:59:17 <Ilari> ~224635k addresses left.
22:59:23 <FireFly> js> (![]+[])[+[]]+([][![]]+[])[+!+[]+!+[]+!+[]+!+[]+!+[]]+(!![]+[])[+!![]]+(!![]+[])[+[]+!+[]+!+[]+!+[]]+(![]+[])[+[]]+(![]+[])[+[]+!+[]+!+[]]+(+!![]/+[]+[])[+[]+!+[]+!+[]+!+[]+!+[]+!+[]+!+[]+!+[]]
22:59:31 <alise> Ilari: Those sure are being used up quickly.
22:59:36 <Vorpal> FireFly, how does that work
22:59:57 <alise> because ![] = false
22:59:58 <Vorpal> <Ilari> ~224635k addresses left. <-- that *sounds* like a lot
22:59:59 <alise> + coerces to number
23:00:03 <FireFly> It uses implicit casting from empty arrays to booleans, and then from booleans to integers (by adding booleans together)
23:00:08 <FireFly> and then index strings like "undefined" and "false"
23:00:11 <alise> [] = as boolean = true = as number = 1
23:00:28 <FireFly> ![]+[] is the string "false"
23:00:39 <alise> FireFly: Very impressive.
23:00:51 <Vorpal> FireFly, 1-based index?
23:01:00 <alise> No, +[] = 0, presumably.
23:01:03 * Sgeo WTFs at Javascript
23:01:21 <Sgeo> It has to be an esolang, right?
23:01:32 <Sgeo> Not used in the real world?
23:01:35 <Vorpal> FireFly, so what about letters not in "undefined", "false" or "true"
23:01:40 <ais523> JavaScript's actually a pretty nice language
23:01:41 <alise> JavaScript has some niceness; it's quite Schemey.
23:01:49 <alise> But the coercion rules are insanity.
23:01:54 <Vorpal> FireFly, what about the letter v
23:01:55 <ais523> I think in pretty much any nice language, you're going to get ridiculounessness like that too
23:01:57 <FireFly> And you can do "[Object object]" if you cheat and use {}
23:02:12 <FireFly> Can't think of a way to get v, I think
23:02:13 <Sgeo> Name some ridiculousness in Scheme or Smalltalk
23:02:13 <Ilari> That date is presumably when IANA runs down to 5 unassigned /8s and proceeds to assign one of them to each of the five RIRs.
23:02:21 <Vorpal> FireFly, aww, can't spell my nick then
23:02:29 <Vorpal> FireFly, can't you just add the char code?
23:02:34 <alise> Sgeo: the interaction of CALL-WITH-CURRENT-CONTINUATION and UNWIND-PROTECT.
23:02:34 <Ilari> And then IANA is out of unassigned address blocks.
23:02:40 <FireFly> Well, you'd have to use String.fromCharCode then
23:02:42 <Sgeo> unwind-protect?
23:02:47 <FireFly> And that wouldn't look as nice :P
23:02:56 <alise> Sgeo: If you ask that question, you're not competent enough in Scheme to implicitly claim its perfection. :p
23:02:59 <ais523> Ilari: assigning 1/8 was really a wake-up call for the world
23:03:03 <ais523> but they just went back to sleep again
23:03:06 <Sgeo> I think I can guess
23:03:15 <alise> Sgeo: You probably guess wrong.
23:03:17 <FireFly> Vorpal, there's probably plenty of strings one can use, that I haven't thought about
23:03:29 <alise> Sgeo: Also, "map" can either be safe to use with CALL-WITH-CURRENT-CONTINUATION, or tail recursive.
23:03:31 <Sgeo> alise, something vaguely akin to try/catch, or Smalltalk's ensure?
23:03:58 <alise> Sgeo: But actually, it can technically be both; it just can't only do one iteration through the list.
23:04:03 <Vorpal> ais523, there is one isp in Sweden which provides native ipv6 according to SixXS. It is aimed at large company offices only
23:04:13 <alise> SISC's developer refers to this as "Tail-recursive, resistant to call/cc interference, O(1*n); pick two."
23:04:27 <alise> SISC picks the first two because it's a correctness nazi.
23:04:51 <Vorpal> ais523, I have a sixxs tunnel of course
23:04:51 <ais523> alise: couldn't you determine statically whether call/cc could interfere, or not?
23:04:55 <Vorpal> using it for freenode atm
23:05:00 <ais523> and optimise based on that
23:05:03 <alise> <Sgeo> alise, something vaguely akin to try/catch, or Smalltalk's ensure? ;; "Vaguely"; but it's much more complicated.
23:05:18 <ais523> Vorpal: IIRC, the person in charge of sixxs considers using an IPv6 tunnel for IRC to be unethical, or illegal, or something
23:05:23 <ais523> nobody really understands why
23:05:28 <alise> ais523: Perhaps. It'd never be 100% effective -- EVAL -- and it'd still fail on one of them in the worst case.
23:05:32 <Vorpal> ais523, sounds like whole-program optimisation would be useful there (wrt call/cc)
23:05:34 <cpressey> ais523: Static analysis? In Scheme? Surely you jest.
23:05:38 <alise> ais523: Besides, nobody uses the call/cc interaction, usually.
23:05:47 <alise> As far as I know its use is confined almost entirely to test suites.
23:05:57 <ais523> cpressey: well, you can statically-analyse everything to some extent
23:06:03 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: complicated.
23:06:08 <cpressey> ais523: Yeah, I'm not totally serious.
23:06:10 <Vorpal> ais523, he considers it for the sake of getting fancy rdns to be silly
23:06:10 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: read the spec; I don't know it off by heart because it's complicated.
23:06:11 <Sgeo> Are there any Lisps with decent standard libraries?
23:06:19 <ais523> Vorpal: ah, that makes more sense
23:06:26 <cpressey> ais523: Sort of referring to my "oh no it's dynamically scoped" lament from earlier.
23:06:26 <Sgeo> I don't want to have to do Scheme/PSOX
23:06:32 <Vorpal> ais523, and one or two POPs limit it
23:06:33 <alise> (Yes, but you don't want to use them.)
23:06:53 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, does it entail weirdness when you call/cc inside map?
23:07:02 <alise> Sorry; it's DYNAMIC-WIND in Scheme.
23:07:12 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Not DYNAMIC-WIND
23:07:14 <Vorpal> ais523, and host can't apply here, I have a cloak, and even without it, *@<blah blah>.se.sixxs.net is not very fancy
23:07:16 <alise> That's a separate issue.
23:07:27 <Vorpal> where <blah blah> is a bit I cut out due to being paranoid :P
23:07:55 <alise> Vorpal's computers are so insecure that he refuses to even reveal his IP address.
23:08:02 <leBMD> who here uses vim to edit in befunge?
23:08:13 <Vorpal> ais523, the faq on irc is at http://www.sixxs.net/faq/misc/?faq=irc
23:08:19 <Vorpal> ais523, if you are interested, check it
23:08:20 <alise> leBMD: I think Deewiant, author of CCBI, uses vim.
23:08:29 <Vorpal> ais523, go log read to find the url
23:08:37 <ais523> Emacs picture-mode is nice for Befunge
23:08:40 <ais523> Vorpal: I don't particularly care
23:08:42 <Vorpal> leBMD, I recommend emacs with picture-mode, that way you can write in all cardinal directions
23:08:50 <leBMD> I'm trying to remember the :command that allows me to move my cursor freely
23:08:50 <ais523> why do people seem to assume that everyone cares about all their links?
23:08:51 <Phantom_Hoover> "(display "Map is call/cc safe, but probably not tail recursive or inefficient.")"
23:09:09 <leBMD> I tried M-x-picturemode, but it didn't let me write >.
23:09:10 <Vorpal> ais523, well you were discussing it :P
23:09:19 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: but probably (not tail recursive) or inefficient
23:09:28 <coppro> ais523: do you filter all messages containing links?
23:09:28 <cpressey> We don't have a Scheme interpreter here?
23:09:33 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
23:09:34 <alise> cpressey: But which one to pick? :P
23:09:39 <alise> cpressey: Clearly it should be OkloScheme.
23:09:39 <Vorpal> cpressey, it MIGHT just be sluggish
23:09:44 <leBMD> like, I would put in ">" and it wouldn't put it on the file.
23:09:54 -!- Gregor-W has joined.
23:09:56 <ais523> alise: have you not made Ponzi Scheme yet?
23:10:05 <ais523> leBMD: that seems weird
23:10:07 <Gregor-W> Is everyone having a nice, olboxy day today?
23:10:08 <alise> ais523: no, I'm not sure I even will
23:10:13 <ais523> are you sure you aren't using crazy keybindings?
23:10:13 <Vorpal> !befunge98 http://sprunge.us/UcYL UcYL
23:10:21 <alise> cpressey: Name is taken.
23:10:23 <alise> coppro: Name is taken.
23:10:23 <Vorpal> iirc it does download urls
23:10:25 <cpressey> ais523: That was an oerjan-worthy pun.
23:10:30 <Vorpal> guess it saves it to different filename
23:10:31 <alise> cpressey: It's also my pun.
23:10:35 <ais523> cpressey: it's alise's pun, not mine
23:10:37 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
23:10:44 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
23:10:48 <cpressey> ais523, alise: OWNERSHIP OF PUN DULY NOTED
23:11:08 <alise> cpressey: It's a Knuth-style process; I thought of the name "Ponzi Scheme", then decided I had better write The Perfect Scheme and call it that.
23:11:41 <coppro> alise: fair enough. But I need it, so you better deliver.
23:11:47 <cpressey> alise: Name Comes First. It's the Only Way.
23:11:48 <Vorpal> cpressey, well since plt-scheme → racket... *shrug*
23:11:49 <fizzie> SixXS folks are also sometimes very bizarre; I have a friend who did some IPv6 userspace routing stuff as his master's thesis, and in the evaluation of that had a tunnel; for the crime of making a sixxs-compatible tunnel client he got his account and forum-discussions deleted.
23:12:00 <alise> coppro: Okay. First, you give me a lot of money.
23:12:04 <fizzie> See http://www.sixxs.info/ for sordid details.
23:13:03 <alise> Vorpal's gods; they disapparate.
23:13:04 <fizzie> There were some other similar stories; can't locate them right now.
23:13:19 <leBMD> hm, I forgot. How do I change which direction I'm typign in in picture-mode?
23:15:22 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
23:19:45 <fizzie> Vorpal: In the interests of full disclosure, his "conflict" was mostly with one of the two SixXS founders; on the other hand, he did get a friendly and appropriate email conversation going on with the other founder; and I personally remember that one as an easygoing guy from the ipng.nl (SixXS predecessor) times, so... Still, bizarroids.
23:21:08 -!- leBMD has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:22:06 <fizzie> Here's another bit: http://www.habets.pp.se/sixxs.net-sucks.php
23:23:43 <Vorpal> fizzie, that user is a bit whiny in the original email. Oh and with dynamic tunnels you can't lose points
23:24:19 <fizzie> And "kill the user account with a 'stop whining'" message is an appropriate response?
23:24:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway I can't find any other tunnel in Sweden that provides a /64 or larger
23:25:05 <Vorpal> so no good alternatives for me
23:25:11 <fizzie> Oh, there are no alternatives, that's true.
23:25:15 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: New quit message. Entering 2006 in style.).
23:25:19 <fizzie> There's another hate-page at http://en.linuxreviews.org/SixXS -- of course there's huge bias in this sort of stuff, but still, it's a bit disconcerting that they have so many of 'em.
23:25:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, freenet6? well I tried it, lag was horrible. Wrote that in sixxs application iirc
23:25:39 <alise> "politically correct".
23:25:45 <alise> Don't they mean incorrect?
23:26:23 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:28:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, I wonder if my phone supports ipv6 btw... hm
23:28:23 <Vorpal> well I know it gets ipv4 normally
23:28:29 <FireFly> Vorpal, actually, after some talking in ##javascript, there seems to be a way to get v
23:28:35 <Vorpal> FireFly, and what is that?
23:28:48 <fizzie> The stock N900 kernel doesn't have IPv6 enabled, but of course you can stick in a new one.
23:28:51 <FireFly> Build the word "filter", index an array with it, and then the output would be:
23:29:00 -!- leBMD has joined.
23:29:01 <FireFly> From there you can fetch v
23:29:08 <pikhq> Why in the world would anyone make a device that doesn't support IPv6?
23:29:11 <Vorpal> FireFly, why filter, why not just f?
23:29:25 <Vorpal> oh it won't be native code then
23:29:26 <FireFly> Vorpal, filter is a standard function in JS
23:29:34 <pikhq> I mean, IPv4 has 2 years left, tops.
23:29:37 <Vorpal> FireFly, so, can you spell my nick with it then?
23:30:03 <Vorpal> pikhq, ... you are joking right? My phone is about 2 years old
23:30:06 <Vorpal> and not state of the art
23:30:24 <pikhq> Vorpal: Yes, but IPv4 is moribund technology.
23:30:39 <Vorpal> pikhq, did that stop anyone from not supporting it?
23:30:44 <Vorpal> pikhq, look at the internet today
23:30:51 <Vorpal> I don't think my router supports ipv6
23:30:51 <FireFly> " ()-INO[]abcdefijlnorstuvy{}"
23:31:01 <pikhq> Vorpal: No, I mean: IPv4 will be *unusuable* in 2 years, tops.
23:31:32 <Vorpal> pikhq, so yay lets make ipv4 and then sell another in 2 years
23:31:41 <Vorpal> pikhq, there is a reason for ipv4-only
23:32:04 <Vorpal> pikhq, do you have native ipv6 yet?
23:32:40 <pikhq> Vorpal: No, because ISPs are fucking idiots who seem to fail to realise that *their service will break* unless they do a complete switch to IPv6 starting two years ago.
23:33:13 <Vorpal> pikhq, it's all so tragic
23:33:25 <Vorpal> pikhq, what will happen I wonder
23:33:30 <Vorpal> everything will obviously break yes
23:33:43 <leBMD> ok, so right now I'm putting a roguelike on the table. Do you guys have any suggestions for good beginner *funge-98 practice?
23:33:50 <Vorpal> pikhq, I believe we will have some interesting times ahead
23:34:02 <pikhq> We will start seeing hosts that cannot be accessed on IPv4. Starting not long after the IPv4 IANA allocations are finished.
23:34:05 <Vorpal> pikhq, I'm sure people will sue about this in US
23:34:11 <Vorpal> it is only to be expected
23:34:30 <cpressey> leBMD: Practice for a roguelike? How about Sokoban?
23:35:00 <pikhq> As it is, yeah, it will be a rough transition.
23:35:02 <Vorpal> cpressey, oh, not as practise for the rouge like
23:35:11 <Vorpal> but in befunge98 coding
23:35:21 <pikhq> Because by the time IPv4 allocations become impossible, we won't be on IPv6.
23:35:54 <Vorpal> pikhq, my old OS9 box only does ipv4
23:36:01 <Vorpal> oh well, will still work on LAN
23:36:12 <Vorpal> and that is all it really needs
23:36:25 <cpressey> Vorpal: More that if you implement Sokoban, you've done a lot of the groundwork for writing a (presumably more complex) roguelike. Wasn't totally certain if that was what leBMD was asking.
23:37:12 <Vorpal> cpressey, and also you would have the sokoban levels from nethack within easy reach
23:37:21 <Vorpal> cpressey, easy in a modular language like befunge ;)
23:37:21 <leBMD> how about something slightly easier than sokoban. I'm still trying to wrap my head around getting something on the screen to "move".
23:37:37 <Vorpal> leBMD, use the NCRS fingerprint
23:37:46 <leBMD> though that is an idea for future things.
23:37:49 <Vorpal> leBMD, then gotoxy thingy to overwrite old thing with space
23:37:53 <Vorpal> and write the new one elsewhere
23:37:58 <Vorpal> leBMD, that is how you move something
23:38:32 <leBMD> I'll see about his fingerprint, though I've never used fingerprints before. Is there a list of commands for it?
23:38:58 <Ilari> Ok... X server limited to 100GB VM space...
23:40:12 <Vorpal> leBMD, hm let me locate NCRS docs
23:40:21 <leBMD> that would be nice.
23:40:34 <leBMD> right now I'm checking the specs to see how to load a fingerprint.
23:40:45 <Vorpal> leBMD, it used to be at http://www.imaginaryrobots.net/projects/funge/myexts.txt
23:41:06 <alise> pikhq: Hey, do you know if Quod Libet has a boost-volume plugin?
23:41:15 <pikhq> alise: No, I don't know.
23:41:30 <Vorpal> leBMD, not in web archive
23:42:09 <Ilari> Normal process VM size limit (set by processor) is either 128TiB or 256TiB...
23:42:36 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
23:43:08 <Vorpal> leBMD, found a local copy
23:43:23 <Vorpal> leBMD, this defines JSTR SGNL and NCRS http://sprunge.us/AQBP
23:43:30 <Vorpal> leBMD, don't know who implements SGNL
23:43:31 -!- zeotrope has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
23:44:18 <Ilari> Vorpal: The 100GB limit is to prevent X server from using too much VM space...
23:44:34 <Vorpal> Ilari, yes... but 100 GB is insanely large
23:44:38 <leBMD> woah, I just saw a picture of a program made using TURT, and I had no idea that you could have graphic output!
23:44:43 <Ilari> Vorpal: This machine has only 56GB total RAM+Swap available.
23:44:51 <Vorpal> Ilari, wow, I want that
23:44:55 <Vorpal> Ilari, how much of it is RAM?
23:45:05 <Vorpal> Ilari, you have that much SWAP!?
23:45:08 <alise> Ilari: Upgraded, huh?
23:45:28 <Vorpal> leBMD, if it was the TURT quine, it is buggy
23:45:49 <leBMD> but it does graphics!
23:45:58 <Vorpal> leBMD, it assumes you do not implement that lowering and raising the pen leaves a dot
23:46:17 <leBMD> Here I was thinking that most all esoteric languages only did terminal.
23:46:23 <Vorpal> leBMD, cfunge, efunge and ccbi1 outputs TURT to .svg, no idea what ccbi2 does
23:46:31 <Ilari> alise: A while ago...
23:46:32 <Vorpal> leBMD, there are many, piet for example
23:46:42 <Vorpal> leBMD, that uses an image as input
23:46:50 <Vorpal> leBMD, there are some which do image output too
23:46:56 <Vorpal> isn't there a 3D one too
23:47:27 <leBMD> I know that piet does INPUT of images, I made a forum for it. :P
23:47:43 <leBMD> I just didn't know that there was a language which allowed for output.
23:48:35 <Ilari> alise: There are messages to this channel referring to this machine already in April...
23:49:28 <alise> Ilari: Well, you don't talk much.
23:49:38 <alise> Ilari: Bit of a major upgrade from your previous box, though. :P
23:50:12 <Ilari> I got one with 8GB ram because RAM will become bottleneck first and I don't want to upgrade again very soon...
23:51:21 -!- nooga has joined.
23:51:31 <Ilari> model name : Intel(R) Core(TM) i7 CPU 860 @ 2.80GHz
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23:56:14 <alise> I ought to get around to upgrading my setup, too.
23:56:22 <alise> I know what to get, at least, since I've made component lists for others.
23:58:53 <leBMD> when a fingerprint needs conditions such as cursor position, it takes the arguments off the stack, right?
00:03:41 <leBMD> ...something's wrong here.
00:04:04 <leBMD> I'm not sure what I did wrong, but I did it.
00:06:57 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:08:46 <cpressey> AP is passing artist's conceptions of black holes off as pictures taken from a telescope. Yay for journalistic integrity!
00:09:29 <cpressey> I was all like, "holy shit we actually have a PICTURE of one, maybe I'll start believing that they exist now", and then I googled, and was all like, "oh. no."
00:10:18 <alise> You know, I'm pretty sure they exist.
00:10:42 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
00:10:54 <cpressey> alise: As you may have guessed, I'm not.
00:11:18 <alise> I hear (of course, I'm no physicist) there's pretty compelling evidence.
00:11:26 <alise> Astronomers have identified numerous stellar black hole candidates, and have also found evidence of supermassive black holes at the center of galaxies. In 1998, astronomers found compelling evidence that a supermassive black hole of more than 2 million solar masses is located near the Sagittarius A* region in the center of the Milky Way galaxy, and more recent results using additional data find evidence that the supermassive black hole is more than 4 milli
00:12:12 <leBMD> So, do you guys know what I did wrong?
00:12:20 <alise> do you have any reason to contradict the vast majority of physicists, cpressey?
00:12:27 <alise> leBMD: Nope, but that's because I don't know the problem.
00:12:42 <leBMD> when I open it in ccbi, it just kind of freezes.
00:13:08 <cpressey> alise: I'm not contradicting them. I have no evidence that they *don't* exist. But I find their evidence pretty slim.
00:13:23 <cpressey> "Gravitational lensing," for instance...
00:13:39 <Ilari> Well, there are numerious objects that either have to be black holes, or something even *more* exotic.
00:13:40 <leBMD> do I need parentheses in my commands that require arguments?
00:13:59 <cpressey> Gravitational lensing asks me to believe that there are lots of occurrences in the heavens of a star *exactly behind* a black hole, from our point of view.
00:14:36 <cpressey> Yet, do we have any examples of a black hole sitting in front of, say, a nebula, where it would be easy to spot, even *visually*?
00:15:51 <Ilari> Ordinary gravitational lensing involves galaxies or entiere galaxy groups performing the lensing. I think the name when black hole performs the lensing is microlensing.
00:16:57 <cpressey> Ilari: I wasn't aware of that terminology. But OK.
00:18:30 <alise> cpressey: You will make Stephen Hawking sad if you don't think black holes exist.
00:18:35 <alise> Do you have any idea how offensive that would be?
00:19:48 <Ilari> I think most serious GR replacement theories do have black holes...
00:19:49 <cpressey> alise: What can I say? I'm just a sadistic bastard that way.
00:20:21 <Ilari> Of course, one can't tell what happens when one takes quantum gravitation into account...
00:20:39 * Sgeo goes to learn more about Falcon programming language
00:21:20 <alise> cpressey: Yeah, you actually turned Sgeo /on/ to Falcon.
00:21:25 <alise> Congratu-fuckin'-lations.
00:21:49 <alise> The designer is a native of Bologna, and the language is total bologna. Coincidence? I think not.
00:22:11 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falcon_(programming_language) Wow. This should either not exist or be a tenth of its length.
00:22:39 <Sgeo> Does the stuff on functional programming have to be all the theory first?
00:23:31 <Sgeo> What if I said that Falcon is the NetHack of programming languages?
00:23:41 <Sgeo> It has everything including the kitchen sink
00:23:55 <alise> Issue: NetHack is fun and amusing, Falcon isn't.
00:24:06 <alise> Rather, NetHack is fun and amusing apart from as mockery.
00:24:10 <Sgeo> (Note: In programming languages, more syntax features is worse)
00:24:22 <alise> cpressey: Do you "believe" in dark energy/matter?
00:24:59 <Sgeo> "we present some novel nomenclature to identify functional programming entities"
00:25:08 <Sgeo> Um, I'm afraid reading further may screw up my brain
00:25:25 <cpressey> alise: Not sure how to answer that. I guess "no". I believe in unaccounted-for observations.
00:26:01 <Ilari> Dark matter is apparently real. But I don't think it has been established wheither dark energy is real or represents inaccuracy of GR...
00:26:07 <alise> cpressey: Well, that's not a reassuring answer, since what I gather from cosmologists is that dark * actually has very very good evidence (possibly better than black holes?).
00:26:12 <cpressey> Looking at unaccounted-for observations and saying, "Gee, there must be a whole lot more matter out there that we can't see, let's call it 'dark matter'" --
00:26:20 <alise> Ilari: Let's go with matter.
00:26:23 <alise> I forgot which it was.
00:26:29 <alise> cpressey: That isn't what happened, though.
00:26:35 <alise> cpressey: That's just how idiots popularised it.
00:27:03 <cpressey> alise: So where is it and what is it?
00:27:12 <alise> cpressey: Space. Dark matter.
00:27:17 <leBMD> Wow, I don't even know what I'm doing anymore. XD
00:27:21 <alise> cpressey: What is a quark?
00:27:32 <Sgeo> Incidentally, I've also been watching Stargate Infinity
00:27:33 <cpressey> alise: Why is it called matter?
00:27:36 <alise> cpressey: What is a quark?
00:27:51 <cpressey> alise: A quark is a building block of matter. Is dark matter made of quarks?
00:28:03 <cpressey> alise: Does it behave like matter?
00:28:19 <Ilari> Apparently it is not made of quarks.
00:28:22 <cpressey> In short, why classify it with matter?
00:28:27 <alise> cpressey: You know, I don't actually know anything about it; people who do know much more about it than me says it most very likely exists, and I don't think I consider mainstream cosmology quackery.
00:28:33 <Ilari> It has mass and inertia.
00:28:38 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_matter
00:28:46 <alise> Here is my generalised answer to your question.
00:28:56 <Ilari> And also gravitational mass.
00:28:58 <alise> cpressey: The way you're talking is the way ultrafinitists talk. :)
00:29:06 <alise> "Where's infinity? What is it? How can you have an infinitely big set?"
00:29:20 <alise> "Strong gravitational lensing as observed by the Hubble Space Telescope in Abell 1689 indicates the presence of dark matter—enlarge the image to see the lensing arcs."
00:29:30 <alise> Does that class as evidence, cpressey?
00:29:44 <Sgeo> " It would be more accurate to say that arrays know what a Table instance is, and are kind with them, rather than seeing the Table class as special ."
00:29:47 <alise> "Dark matter is crucial to the Big Bang model of cosmology [...]"
00:30:12 <Sgeo> So, Tables are a bit magical. Can I do this magic to make my own SgTable class, or is it just More Magic hidden somewhere out of sight?
00:30:19 <Sgeo> I like it when I know how the magic works
00:30:21 <Ilari> If there is supersymmetry, the lightest supersymmetric particle is good candidate for dark matter.
00:31:24 <leBMD> hey cpressey, when dealing with fingerprints, why is there always a "4" after the fingerprint name?
00:31:40 <alise> leBMD: length of fingerprint name
00:31:52 <alise> 4 is used because of 32-bit
00:32:15 * Sgeo considers implementing Tables in Smalltalk for s**ts and giggles
00:32:39 <Ilari> Apparently dark matter only reacts to gravitational and weak forces. Would certainly explain why its "dark".
00:32:42 <alise> soots and giggles.
00:32:46 <alise> Sgeo: stop self-censoring.
00:33:20 <Sgeo> I want to ***k with someone
00:33:47 <leBMD> So then, when you call a command from a fingerprint, like "D for Destroy" or whatever, all you do is put the capital letter there, right?
00:34:01 <cpressey> alise: It's some evidence. Not what I'd call conclusive.
00:34:23 <alise> Great minds: http://nedroid.com/2010/05/that-explains-everything/ http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=1777
00:34:36 * pikhq sucks at driving a stick shift
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00:35:59 <Ilari> Regarding dark energy: I saw some paper that IIRC fitted some cosmological curve (that would involve dark energy in GR) with no parameters. Didn't chekck if the math is good...
00:36:28 <leBMD> So then, if a command needed an argument like "D(m-- ) Destroy if m==1, destroy mode off if m!=1" how would I go about that? Would I put the arguments into the stack?
00:36:37 <Ilari> (it does have parameters, but those are needed to fit local laws of physics, leaving no global parameters).
00:36:52 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Physics_of_Star_Trek ;; lol
00:37:20 <Vorpal> hm should I run /exec -o head --bytes 400 /dev/urandom | tr -d '\n\r'
00:37:28 <Vorpal> it might be interesting to see who complains
00:37:33 <Vorpal> H<CTCP>?Y)BURc#c:MVkoiٴYE]:vK<CTCP>0A[n>.`VBOӡL.ts/]Iuسroyadmf~/']
00:37:40 <Vorpal> hopefully that messes up some terminal :P
00:37:54 <Ilari> Loads of unknown characters...
00:38:33 <alise> Vorpal has successfully levelled down by successfully decreasing his experience points by using his "Retardedness" power, which exercised his "regressive, childlike state of mind" attribute!
00:38:34 <pikhq> My terminal shows question marks.
00:39:15 <pikhq> And my hands smell like gasoline.
00:39:35 <alise> My terminal shows question marks, my hands smell like gasoline, and I'm ready to KICK SOME ASS.
00:39:59 <pikhq> Note to self: fill your damned gas tank up before it shows up as "empty". The gauge LIES!
00:40:39 <leBMD> ok, so now I've got it displaying something, but it fills up the screen.
00:40:56 <cpressey> Strangely, Pidgin did not crash at that.
00:41:15 <Vorpal> lets give it another go!
00:42:01 <Vorpal> that hardly counts does it? ;P
00:42:03 <Vorpal> YT>s:j뮮@ꡂϻ$obKK+!4cD}ݬ|PW3"Y}f'[M^LD;dg*Q2VeߍEmjE7a__K+yi䏟AE.qڬ$Tܙb3ԭb+IRtrBu+}Y9uhح]JA@Mv'lpua&GOIZ(_гJ]D?:`+%tWnC~txmHR;un37и:ߔ-RU$98/=ɻ]ݫŒےbqPRkF)M8kʸ DѺ[
00:42:20 <Vorpal> just for the reactions
00:42:36 <Vorpal> hopefully the log will be octet-stream now too
00:42:43 <Warrigal> So the string that c_str() returns does not need to be freed manually, right?
00:44:30 -!- Flonk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:45:40 -!- leBMD has quit (Quit: gtg).
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00:46:08 <Warrigal> Vorpal: the line freeing the string that c_str() returns.
00:46:14 <cpressey> alise: I'm not planning to obnoxiously promote my crackpot skeptic ideas in here. I will say, however, that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:GalacticRotation2.svg does not exactly scream "Inverse square law" to me.
00:46:44 <cpressey> And on that note -- good evening, all.
00:46:50 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
00:53:41 <Warrigal> alise: yes, the method of a C++ string that converts it into a C char pointer.
00:55:17 <pikhq> Said C string should not be modified, and is not guaranteed to exist after modification of the C++ string object.
00:55:46 <pikhq> Warrigal: Freeing the result of c_str will result in undefined behavior down the line; don't do it.
00:56:42 <Warrigal> Luckily, freeing it appears to be a type error.
00:57:02 <pikhq> Well, yes; C++ doesn't do implicit casts to/from void*.
00:57:17 <Warrigal> In this case, between char * and const char *.
00:57:41 <pikhq> ... void free(void*), not void free(char*).
00:59:05 <pikhq> Huh. Neptune has orbited once since its discovery.
01:07:12 <Sgeo> Why would you deliberately use C++?
01:08:55 <alise> pikhq: Pluto has orbited 73.99999 times
01:09:00 <alise> *Complete and utter fabrication.
01:11:11 <alise> PLUTO IS MADE OF ROBOTS
01:11:14 <alise> ALL ROBOTS ROBOTS ROBOTS
01:11:40 <alise> The new NetHack race!
01:19:39 <alise> Sgeo: Do people who aren't you or oerjan like Triangle and Robert?
01:20:08 <Sgeo> There's a forum...
01:20:17 <alise> Truly proof that anyone can write a comic!
01:20:32 <Sgeo> Mostly spam these days, but go back a bit
01:20:32 <Sgeo> http://voy.com/50101/
01:20:46 <alise> You don't technically need any art then really, do you?
01:20:51 <alise> Little placeholder names would suffice for everything.
01:21:11 <Sgeo> alise, the poor art is a plotpoint
01:21:50 <alise> WHY ARE YOU COLLAPSED
01:22:13 <alise> my table has collapsed
01:22:19 <alise> thusly it is resting on me and not stable in and of itself
01:45:00 <Sgeo> Wow, a rule that comex wrote is horribly broken
01:51:24 <Sgeo> Or, I could be a complete idiot, which I am
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01:53:52 * alise puts the Dunce Cap on Sgeo|Shamed.
01:56:09 <pikhq> Mind flayers are also casters.
01:56:13 <pikhq> Nobody is safe from casters.
01:56:27 <alise> #esoteric: "We will out-pedant your NetHack jokes."
01:56:27 <coppro> they don't have summon nasties, do they?
01:57:10 <pikhq> alise: Oh, *Nethack* jokes.
01:57:16 <pikhq> I was going with D&D.
01:57:33 <alise> That is quite possible, but I have Sgeo|Shamed mentally down as more of a NetHack guy than anything else.
01:57:41 <pikhq> Casters are scary as fucking hell in D&D, due to being the only effective classes from about level 5 up.
01:57:42 <alise> (Discounting the things that don't even count as games.)
01:58:06 <pikhq> (well, rather, they're the only effective classes *because* they're scary as hell)
01:58:15 <alise> Sgeo|Shamed: Which were you referencing?
01:58:27 <alise> See! I was right. Ha.
01:58:51 <pikhq> Sgeo|Shamed: Mechanically, D&D and Nethack are related. So, you know something about D&D.
01:59:17 <Sgeo|Shamed> I also read OOTS, so I know a bit about D&D from there
01:59:43 <alise> SPELLING PEDANTRY BEATS EVERY OTHER FORM OF PEDANTRY
02:00:07 <pikhq> *Spelling *pedantry *beats *every *other *form *of *pedantry *.
02:01:09 <alise> that's orthography
02:01:22 <alise> TYPE OF PEDANTRY PEDANTRY, BITCHES!
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02:27:44 <alise> Shigeru Miyamoto: There's something I've learned from making this new Mario title multiplayer.
02:27:44 <alise> Satoru Iwata: And what's that?
02:27:44 <alise> Shigeru Miyamoto: I realized that, fundamentally, Mario is a game where if you fail and lose a turn, you'll be sent straight back to the start.
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04:05:22 <zzo38> And how do I get DVI to print, I keep getting METAFONT error?
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04:28:10 <zzo38> Do I need a laser printer for DVI?
05:14:20 <zzo38> Then why do I get METAFONT error?
05:21:28 <zzo38> Do you have schematic diagrams for computers based on INTERCAL?
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05:45:01 <zzo38> Did you know there is a Japanese book describing esolangs, and that even AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!! is included?
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06:26:53 <zzo38> An interpreter written in Ruby might exist.
06:26:58 <zzo38> But I am not sure.
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07:02:54 <zzo38> How do I find the information and implementation for: ETHEL, Okapi, Whothm
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07:08:19 <Slereah> zzo38 : Do you have a link to that book?
07:09:02 <zzo38> But look on Wikipedia under [[Unlambda]] I think you can find a preview of a few pages
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07:52:41 <zzo38> If you add Hackiki into esolangs, I have a few suggestions. One is to add OpenID support to MediaWiki so that the accounts can be linked. Another is to provide read-only access between both systems (so that a MediaWiki page can transclude a Hackiki file, and a Hackiki program can read a MediaWiki page). Third is to put Enhanced CWEB, and TeX, and modify cwebmac.tex (and cweave.w if needed) to weave to HTML
07:52:58 <zzo38> (And that if you download the file, you can then run it locally and weave to TeX and DVI or PDF, as well, just like normal way)
07:54:59 <zzo38> Someone can also put in a MediaWiki parser, so that the MediaWiki files are readable in Hackiki!
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16:23:57 <coppro> okay, I have found yet another reason to <3 Amazon
16:25:10 <coppro> they have a download manager for direct music purchases, and they distribute Linux binaries
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16:28:01 <coppro> there are a few issues with the way they do it, but they get points
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16:35:26 <coppro> also apparently it uses boost
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19:15:54 <Sgeo|ShamedAgain> I have yet to have an opinion, other than to note that there's nothing too exciting about it, and it seems to have a bit of an excess of syntax
19:16:58 <pikhq> Fucking router. Hand out a damned DHCP lease.
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19:30:06 <pikhq> Fucking router. Accept packets.
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20:19:30 <leBMD> So, I still haven't figured out how to get fingerprints in funge-98 to work right. XD
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22:42:15 <alise> 08:25:10 <coppro> they have a download manager for direct music purchases, and they distribute Linux binaries
22:42:30 <alise> I have a download manager for zero-cost direct any media purchases, and they distribute Linux source AND binaries!
22:42:39 <alise> In fact, the protocol is open, and there are many different clients.
22:42:48 <alise> 08:35:26 <coppro> also apparently it uses boost
22:42:49 <alise> 08:35:27 <coppro> even better
22:42:49 <alise> Some definition of "better".
22:43:43 <Sgeo> alise, some people do like staying on the right side of the law ... unless you're referring to HTTP instead of BitTorrent
22:44:25 <pikhq> Sgeo: BitTorrent is 150% legal.
22:44:31 <alise> Sgeo: People probably break the law all the time and don't realise it.
22:44:59 <alise> Besides, I consider obeying unenforceable, morally incorrect laws to be Wrong.
22:45:00 <pikhq> Also, yes. Each time your cells undergo mitosis you've violated patent law once again.
22:45:43 <pikhq> (though you could probably win the case under doctrine of laches)
22:45:50 <alise> "I will accept the rules that you feel necessary to your freedom. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do." ;; Heinlein is wrong about a lot of things, but he's pretty damn close to the mark here.
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22:52:43 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Exactly what it says.
22:53:11 <alise> I don't believe it said that, no.
22:53:29 <Phantom_Hoover> . If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them.
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22:53:50 <alise> There's an awful lot of things flying over heads right now.
22:53:59 <alise> Actually head, singular.
22:54:37 <alise> I suppose you could read "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress".
22:57:15 <alise> And dubdubdubdoozas?
22:59:32 <Sgeo> Allegiance time
22:59:34 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, OK, from the start. ""I will accept the rules that you feel necessary to your freedom."
23:01:23 <Phantom_Hoover> In that it later states that he will ignore obnoxious rules.
23:02:43 <cpressey> Well, perhaps "accept" doesn't mean "follow" in that.
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23:09:15 <cpressey> Doesn't look quite the same, for me. But it looks the same in the tunes log.
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23:24:39 <cpressey> Wikipedia: "In computability theory, a collection of data-manipulation rules (an instruction set, programming language, or cellular automaton) is said to be Turing complete if and only if such system can simulate a single-taped Turing machine."
23:24:56 <cpressey> Well, here's my single-taped Turing machine: it has one state and one symbol and one transition.
23:25:14 <cpressey> And here's my language X that simulates it: (insert trivial language here).
23:25:43 <cpressey> According to wikipedia, my language is Turing-complete. Because it "can simulate a single-taped Turing machine" -- the one I just described.
23:26:22 <coppro> cpressey: I blame Wikipedia. It should say "any" or "a universal"
23:26:32 <coppro> (which are equivalent)
23:26:37 <cpressey> Yes. Sorry if it wasn't clear -- I blame Wikipedia too :)
23:27:50 <cpressey> "any" and "a universal" aren't *quite* equivalent, unfortunately -- it brings up the issue of how you handle input.
23:28:26 <alise> pikhq: God dammit, why does MusicBrainz credit every single performer?
23:28:32 <cpressey> I prefer "any". Otherwise you allow languages that can only simulate one fixed UTM to be called Turing-complete. It may be technically true, but... blargh
23:28:57 <coppro> cpressey: a UTM is only universial if it can simulate any TM
23:29:02 <alise> cpressey: Well, any language that can simulate a UTM can simulate any TM.
23:29:16 <coppro> if you fix the input as well, it's not universal
23:32:01 <pikhq> alise: Yeah well eff you.
23:32:55 <pikhq> cpressey: If you can simulate a specific UTM you can simulate all Turing-complete systems. So nyaah.
23:33:30 <cpressey> pikhq: My criticism is that a language that lets you only write one program is a boring language, even if that one program is a UTM.
23:33:34 <alise> pikhq: Maybe I'll create /usr/bin/DEFUCK_MUSICBRAINZ_TAGS. With that capitalisation.
23:33:46 <coppro> pikhq: we haven't proven that yet
23:33:53 <alise> Boring, of course; but Turing complete.
23:33:56 <alise> coppro: Uh, yes we have.
23:34:05 <alise> coppro: UTM = can simulate any Turing machine.
23:34:10 <alise> Church-Turing hypothesis?
23:34:18 <alise> <pikhq> cpressey: If you can simulate a specific UTM you can simulate all Turing-complete [and no higher] systems. So nyaah.
23:34:23 <alise> Is the obvious implied meaning.
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23:35:00 <cpressey> If, on the other hand, every TM maps to some (different) program in your language (and without regard to input for those programs), then your language is still Turing-complete, and less "boring".
23:35:58 <cpressey> 'Swhy I prefer "any", is all. I'm not saying "a universal" is wrong or anything.
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23:36:13 <pikhq> Well, of course it's a *boring* language.
23:36:25 <pikhq> We do not limit our definitions to only interesting languages.
23:36:31 <cpressey> What I'd really like is two different terms for those two properties.
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23:36:59 <pikhq> Turing-complete and "Pleases cpressey".
23:37:10 <cpressey> Which mean, what I'd really like is *a* term for the property I just described.
23:37:19 <pikhq> Cpressey-complete.
23:37:21 <cpressey> pikhq: Please sir, I did describe it more formally than that.
23:38:04 <coppro> cpressey: you mean that a single program can simulate the set of Turing machines that are equivalent except for their input tape
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23:38:43 <coppro> then please provide a different formal definition
23:39:22 <coppro> so that I can explain why you're wrong
23:39:40 <cpressey> I mean, you have a language X, and you can map every TM to some unique element of X, and you don't have to do anything with input (except maybe a trivial mapping between alphabets if you like.)
23:39:46 <cpressey> coppro: How can a definition be wrong?
23:40:02 <cpressey> Internally inconsistent, maybe...
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23:40:19 <pikhq> cpressey: By "wrong" he means "stupid".
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23:40:32 <coppro> cpressey: input is part of a TM
23:41:10 <cpressey> coppro: Er - not in my definition of TMs, it's not. Otherwise how would you distinguish between the Halting Problem and the Uniform Halting Problem, for exampel?
23:41:58 <cpressey> You can look at a TM + its input as a set of TM's if you like, of course
23:42:13 <coppro> cpressey: there is a very specific definition of a TM as a 7-tuple
23:42:37 <cpressey> coppro: There is also a very specific defintion of a TM as a 4-tuple
23:45:12 <cpressey> Blame Papadimitriou, I guess. At any rate, it doesn't matter if input is part of a TM or not, for my definition, does it?
23:45:49 <coppro> because then you can provide a proper definition of what you're describing
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23:46:11 <cpressey> coppro: Can you show how I have failed to do so?
23:46:23 <coppro> "you don't have to do anything with input" is hopelessly vague
23:46:41 <cpressey> You have a language X, and you can map every TM to some unique element of X.
23:47:30 <cpressey> If X has this property, then X is Turing-complete. But Y can be Turing-complete, but not have this property.
23:47:46 <cpressey> So I'd like a name for this property.
23:47:49 <alise> Turing-isomorphic?
23:48:04 <alise> Isomorphic is wrong in case the language is super-TC.
23:48:19 <coppro> cpressey: can you give an example of Y
23:48:42 <cpressey> Y might be a language with only one element: a program which implements a UTM.
23:49:04 <alise> cpressey: even some boring languages fit your specification
23:49:13 <alise> if you have a UTM simulator, and a function that spits out a UTM program to simulate a given TM
23:49:15 <alise> then just plug the two together
23:49:21 <alise> even though the language may not be able to "natively" simulate a given TM
23:49:35 <alise> otoh, a language that can do that is unlikely to be boring :)
23:50:47 <nooga> FFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUU
23:50:49 <cpressey> alise: I'm not totally sure I follow that particulat example but I'm aware there are probably ways to wiggle around this, which is why I was quick to scare-quotify "boring" :)
23:50:59 <nooga> again, i got accidentaly killed in angband again
23:51:21 <alise> cpressey: say we have foo(x) = y such that UTM(y) simulates the turing machine x
23:51:27 <alise> cpressey: say foo is computable in language X
23:51:39 <alise> cpressey: say we also have a single UTM simulator in X
23:51:51 <alise> then UTMsim(foo(x)) proves X non-boring
23:51:58 <alise> even though it can only "natively" simulate one UTM
23:52:00 <alise> which you were trying to avoid
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23:52:57 <cpressey> Well -- just because we *can* map every TM to some unique element of X doesn't mean we *have* to -- if that's what you're getting at
23:53:09 <cpressey> We can also map them all to one program
23:53:27 <alise> You said "languages that can only simulate one UTM suck" and tried to provide a property that did not accept languages that can do that.
23:53:37 <alise> What I just demonstated is that even though language X can only express one UTM, it meets your property.
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23:54:43 <cpressey> I was using Y for that language, ftr -- but Y only *has* one element (the UTM program). How can all TMs map to *unique* elements of Y?
23:55:17 <alise> Oh, only one element full stop.
23:55:32 <alise> I thought you meant that it could have an assortment of random programs and subprograms, but only one actually did UTM computation.
23:55:51 <cpressey> Yeah. No. One element, full stop, as you say.
23:55:54 <alise> Like a "zap" instruction that interprets the Foo Buffer as a UTM, but all other operations form a sub-TC language.
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23:56:11 <alise> cpressey: Then it's as equal to the UTM it simulates as you can get; indistinguishable, even.
23:56:29 <cpressey> alise: Or a subset of Pascal that just contains one program, a Brainfuck interpeter.
23:56:50 <alise> I think those are such edge cases that you can just ignore them.
23:56:53 <alise> Don't be an AnMaster. :)
00:01:35 <cpressey> Certainly not my intent. I think whether you consider this an edge case (implied: uninteresting) or an pathological case (implied: interesting) is a matter of opinion. I also think perhaps there would be less heated debate about this or that system being universal if we had a richer set of definitions to work with.
00:01:46 <cpressey> I'd glance in ais523's direction but he's not here.
00:02:26 <alise> I totally find myself unable to care.
00:04:04 <cpressey> Ah well. I find myself need to take off, too.
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00:16:11 <Sgeo> alise, I'm dead
00:18:06 <Sgeo> http://alt.org/nethack/userdata/Sgeo/dumplog/1218251507.nh343.txt
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00:37:55 <alise> "Shoes 3" ;; what? you can't do that; it's why's!
00:39:38 <Sgeo> Is that a Ruby joke?
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00:40:32 <zzo38> Can you please tell me why my program is slow, and how to make it fast? (The SDL channel won't help me, they just complain about my codes instead)
00:40:38 <zzo38> http://sprunge.us/WEdQ http://sprunge.us/EdXC
00:41:04 <Sgeo> for(;i--;p++) {
00:41:43 <zzo38> Does SDL wait for vblank normally, does that make it slow?
00:42:06 <olsner> while (i--) is a neat way of looping n (n = original value of i) times with values 0..n-1 each appearing once in the loop
00:42:26 <zzo38> MegaZeux is faster and uses less CPU time, even though MegaZeux does a lot more things when redrawing the screen.
00:42:52 <alise> olsner: Neat? It's ... normal :P
00:43:19 <olsner> normal to me is a "for (i=0;i<n;i++)"
00:43:33 <alise> that doesn't work though
00:43:35 <alise> since it's in reverse order
00:43:37 <zzo38> olsner: But if the order doesn't matter, surely doing it in reverse way is more efficient?
00:43:56 <olsner> for pretty much all other looping patterns I still need to do careful analysis to figure out what they do
00:44:01 <Sgeo> I think it's the sort of efficiency that you worry about last
00:45:19 <olsner> IMO it starts being relevant at approximately the same time you'd start rewriting stuff in assembly anyway
00:45:55 <zzo38> In the case of for(;i--;p++) it has to do both -- and ++
00:46:24 <zzo38> And if it is writing in assembly, that means it will not work on the other computer. That is why C is used
00:47:06 <olsner> a more obvious way would be something like for (i=1;i<=n;i++) { /* use p[i] */ }
00:47:50 <zzo38> olsner: Maybe to you it is more obvious, but not to me
00:48:11 <zzo38> How much do you program in C?
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00:52:17 <olsner> I like to think of it as a lot, but I might actually be writing more e-mails than C :/
00:53:07 <zzo38> It should be obvious what the program does, because it even tells you what it does, and is more obvious for C programmers, too.
00:53:43 <zzo38> You still didn't answer my question though, why is it slow and uses a lot of CPU time, even though MegaZeux is fast and takes less CPU time?
00:54:11 <olsner> oh, I didn't read the code, I only read Sgeo's quote
00:54:39 <alise> I write ~no emails.
00:54:57 <olsner> oh noes, literate programming... I can't find the code for all the text :(
00:56:03 <alise> Must...download...cloud-cat-poster.tif...
00:57:28 <zzo38> Is waiting for vblank making it slow?
00:58:42 <olsner> does the SDL backend you use (X-windows?) actually support palette formats or is it simulating them by converting to RGB-something in software?
00:58:49 <Ilari> zzo38: Well, see how much time the SDL screen update call takes relative to other code?
00:59:50 <zzo38> olsner: I am using Win32, but it is meant to work on all small-endian computers
00:59:52 <alise> pikhq: How do you calculate ReplayGain for MP3s on Linux? I'm wary of MP3Gain...
01:00:52 <alise> Never mind; mp3gain works.
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01:02:03 * Sgeo zaps a /death at alise
01:02:39 <pikhq> alise: mp3gain outputs tags in a retarded format that Quod Libet won't accept.
01:02:54 <pikhq> alise: I used Quod Libet's replaygain *plugin* to do it.
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01:05:00 <alise> pikhq: Nope, nope, there is a way.
01:05:08 <alise> That writes to ID3v2.
01:05:15 <alise> *mp3gain -h skillz*
01:05:17 <pikhq> alise: Oh, so that makes it not-dumb. Good.
01:05:28 <alise> Well, APEv2 is a perfectly acceptable and superior tagging format, it's just that nobody uses it.
01:05:42 <alise> The people who use APEv2 also use Musepack.
01:06:22 <zzo38> I have found out, that, yes the |SDL_UpdateRect| command is making it slow. But without that, it won't draw the picture on the screen.
01:06:33 <pikhq> It's not that APEv2 is inherently dumb, it's that nothing *uses* APEv2.
01:06:59 <pikhq> And if I'm in a position to use something with better *tagging* format support, I'm also in a position to use something with better audio formats.
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01:07:40 <alise> pikhq: Alas, there is the occasional gem distributed only in the muchly-lossy form.
01:07:58 <alise> I have a wonderful little set of ditties here that is available only at 128 kbps.
01:08:26 <pikhq> Obscure music is hard to find in FLACs.
01:08:35 <alise> Or music made by a madman.
01:24:29 <alise> pikhq: I'd even say this album needs /track ReplayGain inside the album ReplayGain/, but then I can seriously entertain the idea that the schizophrenic mixing is entirely intentional.
01:25:00 <pikhq> Hmm. OED 3rd edition came out today.
01:25:19 <alise> They still use IPA.
01:25:51 <alise> It doesn't make sense! IPA is dialect-specific, and as a consumer product, IPA is useless as a pronunciation guide
01:26:06 <pikhq> Sorry, no, someone claimed it did but it's rather the "Oxford Dictionary of English". Bleh.
01:26:25 <alise> pikhq: [[As of 10 June 2010, the editors had completed the third edition from M to rococoesque.]]
01:26:44 <alise> The Oxford Dictionary of English (formerly The New Oxford Dictionary of English, often abbreviated to NODE) is a single-volume English language dictionary first published in 1998 by Oxford University Press. This dictionary is not based on the Oxford English Dictionary and should not be mistaken for a new or updated version of the OED. It is a completely new dictionary which strives to represent as faithfully as possible the current usage of English words.
01:26:47 <pikhq> alise: Yeah, well. The OED proper is not much of a consumer product.
01:26:55 <alise> pikhq: Yes, but... the concise OED is.
01:27:18 <pikhq> And that should at *least* have a dialect-neutral pronounciation guide as well.
01:27:20 <alise> pikhq: Besides, as a scholarly work, a specific dialect should not be picked. So they have to list multiple IPAs.
01:27:23 <alise> Which is a bit ludicrous.
01:27:53 <pikhq> alise: At least it's a percieved-standard dialect... Could be worse.
01:27:55 <alise> The concise OED (and possibly the OED proper) of olden days (60s) had a wonderful pronunciation system based on unobtrusive punctuation like | and ' along with little lines above the words.
01:28:00 <zzo38> The SDL_UpdateRect slow is OK, since is in a different thread, I think it just waits for vblank. And it uses less CPU time than the main program (which is not the initial thread), when that is happening.
01:28:05 <alise> pikhq: Wait, they don't list multiple pronunciations? Just RP?
01:28:31 <alise> Nobody even speaks RP. Just the BBC.
01:28:38 <alise> Even the Queen is slowly drifting to Cockney.
01:29:00 <pikhq> alise: Could be worse. Imagine if they had it use Scottish English.
01:29:11 <pikhq> Or, for more insanity, Scots.
01:29:40 <zzo38> alise: I saw something written with IPA, and I couldn't read it because it was not my dialect. I suppose it is a little bit like listening to someone with a strong accent and you can't understand them? Not quite, it is different.
01:30:02 <pikhq> zzo38: IPA's merely hard to read without some study.
01:31:02 <pikhq> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/42/RPGA_international.svg And, as you can see here, it is not accent-neutral.
01:31:19 <pikhq> Wait, that's just text. XD
01:31:31 <pikhq> [ɪntəˈnæʃənəɫ] & [ɪɾ̃ɚˈnæʃɨnəɫ]
01:31:44 <pikhq> RP and General American, respectively.
01:31:49 <alise> It looks prettier in the picture though.
01:31:53 <zzo38> pikhq: No, the reason I couldn't read it is because it is not my dialect. I speak rhotic but they wrote the IPA in non-rhotic, and that is why I cannot understand.
01:32:09 <alise> pikhq: I can't remember whether my accent is rhotic or not.
01:32:24 <alise> I'm not sure it's the same as my region, because my accent is rather generic.
01:32:33 <pikhq> zzo38: There's not much of a difference between rhotic and non-rhotic in IPA.
01:32:43 <alise> I definitely pronounce my r's, but that might not mean much.
01:32:53 <alise> But I don't even know if I say an r in "hard".
01:32:54 <zzo38> From wikipedia: A rhotic speaker pronounces the letter R in hard; a non-rhotic speaker does not pronounce it in hard.
01:32:56 <pikhq> zzo38: Not that the General American has ɚ instead of ə for the rhotic vowel.
01:33:22 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_English
01:33:25 <pikhq> alise: Got a microphone?
01:33:31 <alise> Scottish English, Irish English and English English.
01:33:40 <alise> pikhq: Yes. I don't know if I have the drivers, but I'll try.
01:33:56 <alise> Can I use rec(1)? How?
01:33:59 <alise> Don't feel like installing audacity.
01:34:37 <pikhq> alise: Though imperfect, cat /dev/dsp > foo
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01:35:08 <alise> How many bits, etc.?
01:35:22 <alise> pikhq: Not /dev/dsp; "rec" yields nothing.
01:35:29 <alise> Apparently I can't.
01:36:01 <pikhq> Raw PCM, 8 bit, mono, 8 kHz.
01:36:08 * alise just tries Audacity.
01:36:40 <zzo38> No, when the main program is waiting, the video thread takes 78% CPU
01:36:46 <alise> Such a low volume my microphone is at; why?
01:36:51 <alise> Why does that seem to be such a universal occurance?
01:37:10 <Sgeo> alise, I'm now a lawful valk
01:37:16 <Sgeo> erm, dwarf valk
01:40:02 <alise> pikhq: I think this is how I usually pronounce "hard": http://filebin.ca/owtjja/hard.wav
01:41:00 <alise> OTOH, I pronounce "ass" and "arse" very differently (the former as slang apparently arose from the latter under non-rhoticity, says WP)
01:41:04 <alise> (or rhoticity? I dunno.)
01:41:59 <pikhq> alise: That is ridiculously non-rhotic.
01:42:15 <alise> pikhq: Yes; I think it may be slightly more rhotic when I'm not thinking about the damn thing.
01:42:29 <alise> But I suppose I neglect the little /r/.
01:44:05 <pikhq> No, you're neglecting the little /ɑ˞/, instead opting for /ɑ/.
01:44:14 <alise> Well, whatever. :)
01:44:23 <alise> RP is rhotic, yes?
01:44:40 <alise> I guess I'm in good company. :P
01:44:52 <pikhq> The thing is, rhoticism is a change in the *vowel sounds*, not an actual consonant.
01:45:39 <alise> My accent is actually delightfully non-specific; despite living in the north east for all the time I can remember save maybe one or two memories, I don't seem to have any facets of its accents.
01:45:50 <alise> But I clearly don't speak RP either. God knows what I speak.
01:45:54 <alise> IT's rather plain.
01:46:23 <pikhq> From that short snippet there, I'd have to go with "stereotypical, non-specific British".
01:46:43 <pikhq> (which is, of course, distinct from RP in that you actually hear people who talk that way)
01:46:43 <alise> My accent is quite similar to RP, except not with the ridiculous broad A shit. "I'm taking a BARTH".
01:46:54 <alise> And, you know, not nearly as stuck-uply precise.
01:47:28 <pikhq> My accent is what happens when you take General American and make it stuck-uply precise. :P
01:48:20 <alise> Like a trainwreck had an abortion!
01:49:02 <zzo38> I found one of the problems in my program! One of them was a misplacement of a SDL_Delay(1) command
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02:16:38 * alise wonders how amusing an infobot in here would end up
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02:33:43 * pikhq is too lazy to do dinner
02:33:50 * alise_ is too lazy to dinner do
02:34:03 * pikhq is, in fact, too lazy to freaking make instant noodles
02:34:12 <alise_> Which is probably for the best.
02:34:40 <pikhq> But I like to consume 400% of the RDA of sodium per bite!
02:36:17 <alise_> You know, the Falcon language has maybe one good feature.
02:36:31 <alise_> It lets you specify "only do this on the first/last/not first or last elements of the list" in a foreach.
02:38:12 * pikhq is somewhat stunned....
02:38:19 <pikhq> So, they have instant noodles in North Korea.
02:38:24 <pikhq> It is consumed by the elite in the country.
02:38:38 <pikhq> Everyone else is too poor to consume what is the cheapest food item.
02:43:09 <alise_> http://pastie.org/1103350.txt?key=xrp0wgb90ehjpcilts9uw
02:43:12 <alise_> My task: Make this work.
02:43:31 <alise_> Hmm, that last @on should have some indicator that it has to be addressed to the tbot.
02:48:28 <Sgeo> Showers should not be rare
02:49:10 <alise_> pikhq: Quick! Procure a word like "message", but that has the connotation of being addressed to you.
02:50:07 <Sgeo> alise_, maybe Falcon doesn't suck that badly/
02:50:34 <alise_> Sgeo: Maybe it absolutely freaking does and you have the worst taste ever.
02:50:40 <alise_> pikhq: An English word. Preferably.
02:50:52 <Sgeo> alise_, I still have not expressed an opinion other than unexciting
02:50:59 <pikhq> alise_: It's a neologism in Japanese, too. :P
02:51:06 <Sgeo> Also, going to take a shower in 10min
02:51:38 <alise_> @on.message(r'\?(.*)')
02:51:38 <alise_> def consult(ctx, topic):
02:51:44 <alise_> @on.something(r'(.+?) is (.+)')
02:51:44 <alise_> def enlighten(ctx, topic, knowledge):
02:51:52 <pikhq> alise_: Recimissum.
02:51:58 <alise_> The former triggers on anyone saying ?foo as a mesage; the latter triggers on someone addressing the bot.
02:52:07 <alise_> pikhq: Okay, I guess I'll just put an underscore in the name. :P
02:52:32 <pikhq> alise_: ITS A VALID ENGLISH WORD THAT MEANS "RECEIVED MESSAGE" DAMMIT.
02:52:41 <pikhq> (neologism but still)
02:52:51 <alise_> http://www.google.com/search?q=Recimissum
02:53:04 <pikhq> Yes, it's a neologism.
02:53:15 <alise_> One that you evidently just made up now :P
02:53:22 <pikhq> Yes, it's a neologism.
02:53:30 <pikhq> From recipere + missum.
02:53:46 <alise_> I declare Recimissum a good name for an email client.
02:53:46 <pikhq> (the in-English cognates being receive and message)
02:54:22 <zzo38> alise_: Are you going to write a email client, now?
02:55:21 <alise_> pikhq: On an altogether more random note entirely, do you spot any major suckage in the way that infobot plugin is written? (i.e. the imaginary plugin API)
02:55:35 <alise_> I basically tried to write something that didn't suck and now I have to make it work...
02:56:07 <zzo38> I have one idea for esolang, where each instruction has 2 bytes (where 1 byte is not necessarily 8 bits), and first is address of next instruction and second is each bit turns on one register, and they transfer registers in that way. Including instruction XOR register.
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02:57:27 <zzo38> alise_: A message is not send to you if you send to a channel you are on, but it is sent back to you if you put your own name as the recipient.
02:57:45 <zzo38> That is how IRC works
02:58:10 <alise_> zzo38: Which is technically correct and entirely useless, as it ignores the ubiquitous convention of "nick: ..." to specifically address a message to someone on a channel.
02:58:14 <alise_> Which is, of course, rather useful for bots.
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02:59:14 <zzo38> I have written a IRC bot too, it requires to be send a message to them directly, even if it is on a channel
02:59:56 <zzo38> This way it won't interfere, but any messages that are meant to be public can be seen by anyone, such as messages to observe a game play
03:01:16 <Sgeo> alise_, the Valkrie quest leader is the Norn
03:01:29 <zzo38> And then, you can set up a macro to send commands to that IRC bot.
03:01:54 <zzo38> (At least in the IRC client I use, setting up such macros is simple)
03:03:51 <alise_> I can't get the lyrics to SG-1's theme tune out of my head.
03:04:05 <zzo38> (Simply assign a function key (F1 to F12), and then tell what sequence of keys it corresponds to! Usually the CLEAR code comes first, to clear the line, and then "PRIVMSG targetname :" and then you can type in the command. Example: I have F1 set up as my login macro.)
03:04:59 <alise_> Sgeo: Quick, talk about some crappy VR game to take my mind off it.
03:05:29 <Sgeo> Maybe I can sing Stargate Infinity's theme tune instead?
03:05:38 <zzo38> Do the IRC clients you use, use a dialog box to login?
03:05:43 <alise_> I looked that up on YouTube a second ago and vomited; worst "song" ever.
03:06:04 <zzo38> alise_: Then do you use a macro to login?
03:06:17 <alise_> zzo38: My client logs in automatically.
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03:07:20 <zzo38> Like, by a configuration settings?
03:08:10 <zzo38> Do you have to configure the password, too, if there is one? (I prefer not to configure the password. So I enter it before pushing F1, and it is masked so that it is hidden from the screen)
03:10:28 <alise_> There is one. I don't care about IRC nearly enough to worry about my password.
03:12:10 <Sgeo> alise_, Built by ancients so long ago..
03:12:24 <Sgeo> The Stargate lay 'til we broke the code
03:12:31 <alise_> Sgeo: I will now kill you.
03:12:53 <alise_> Heck, those lyrics are actually worse than the ones the writers just came up with in three seconds for the DVD commentary.
03:12:59 <alise_> Which are still stuck in my head despite your efforts argh.
03:13:08 <alise_> coppro: What kind of smiley is ^5, anyway? Ohhh, high five.
03:13:09 <zzo38> If you have a password but you don't configure it, but it is configure login automatically, then that won't work, unless you tell it to ask you the password every time? IRC requires the password before you login.
03:14:00 <zzo38> We don't need ^5 anymore.
03:14:23 <zzo38> No, that is no good either, let's try again...
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03:14:47 <alise_> What, exactly, are you trying to do, zzo38?
03:14:54 <zzo38> There, now is better for sure!
03:15:29 <zzo38> alise_: What do you think?
03:16:16 <alise_> zzo38: I have absolutely no clue whatsoever what you think ^5 means, or what you are trying to do, or how you are improving it.
03:16:24 <alise_> I am utterly at a loss and require explanation, or my head may explode.
03:16:49 <zzo38> alise_: I don't know either, actually. But at least I can avoid to be explode.
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03:17:12 <alise_> That ... I am no more enlightened than I was a second ago.
03:18:02 <zzo38> Correct. Correct. Correct,Correct,Correct,Correct,Correct,Correct,Correct.
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03:39:14 <alise> Uh oh, the WHY ARE YOU DOING THAT police are attacking me in #python!
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04:02:45 <SgeoN2> zzo38, ^5 is high five
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14:21:19 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: um i'm pretty sure comex is an old regular.
14:22:03 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, by regular do you mean he has the same relation to "regular" as IWC has to "irregular"?
14:22:17 <oerjan> well at presently, maybe
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14:22:45 <oerjan> it _is_ of course possible i know him from elsewhere
14:27:11 <oerjan> it seems he has been in all of here, #haskell and agora
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16:11:07 <Vorpal> <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: um i'm pretty sure comex is an old regular. <-- yes he is
16:11:46 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you forgot sed
16:12:02 <Vorpal> (the third unix esolang, and unlike m4 it is in POSIX)
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16:21:43 <Gregor> http://xkcd.com/782/ ... lol.
16:23:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, sed makes a dc program into one understandable by the m4 interpreter.
16:23:44 <Gregor> It's kinda obvious, but chuckleworthy :P
16:23:45 <Phantom_Hoover> I assume it's parodying a trope of which I have no knowledge.
16:24:00 <Gregor> Oh, it is? You don't know the Ancient Indian Burial Ground trope?
16:24:27 <Phantom_Hoover> And I felt cheated, since at first glance it looked to have hatguy in it.
16:24:51 <Gregor> Nope, just once-off hairgirl.
16:25:11 <Gregor> A friend of mine once asked me to recommend a hat to buy that would be most similar to the hat that hatguy in XKCD wears :P
16:25:26 <Vorpal> <Gregor> http://xkcd.com/782/ ... lol. <-- wtf
16:25:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Hatguy is very inconsistently named in the text summaries that ONR searches.
16:26:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Sometimes he's hatguy, other times man with hat, man with black hat, hat guy...
16:26:50 <Gregor> I quite often find myself referred to as "hat man"
16:27:11 <Gregor> It's a nickname that generates itself with no intervention by me :P
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16:29:00 <Vonlebio> VanLabia, stop defiling my good name!
16:29:57 <oerjan> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IndianBurialGround
16:30:06 <oerjan> it already references the xkcd :D
16:30:20 <VanLabia> oerjan: Wow, xkcd made it to TvTropes so fast X-D
16:30:56 <oerjan> VanLabia: well IWC frequently does too...
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16:32:38 <Vonlebio> oerjan, yeah, but that's at least in part because DMM is fairly involved with it.
16:33:36 <oerjan> i'm not sure he adds his _own_ comic as reference, though. could be considered bad taste
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16:34:04 <oerjan> but he has referenced tvtropes often enough in iwc
16:34:16 <Vonlebio> Yes, but as a result his comics tend to explicitly use and reference tropes, making them very suited for examples.
16:35:13 <oerjan> of course wikipedia had enough trouble with xkcd that i think they made a policy specific for it
16:35:59 <Vonlebio> "Anyone making articles based on xkcd is banned. No exceptions."
16:36:09 <Vonlebio> If it is not that, I shall be very disappointed.
16:37:00 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Xkcd_in_popular_culture
16:37:25 <oerjan> well an essay, not a policy
16:38:14 <Vonlebio> http://xkcdwikiwatch.blogspot.com/
16:40:23 <oerjan> hey i was going to mention that
16:41:44 * Zuu 's lame way of attracting attention
16:41:58 <Zuu> It was the wrong channel though :)
16:43:08 <Vonlebio> I've observed before that xkcd's format is increasingly similar to that of SMBC.
16:43:34 <Zuu> Nah, just Zuu
16:43:47 <Vonlebio> Although not quite so much in the last couple of weeks.
16:44:20 <oerjan> you cannot say "muh" without getting the reference. bah!
16:44:45 * Zuu is confused
16:45:32 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu_(negative)
16:45:48 <Vonlebio> oerjan, what about the 'h' on the end?
16:46:15 <cpressey> I love how PyObjC is like this "Mac thing".
16:49:00 <cpressey> Er, yeah, to the degree that it's setup script actually has Mac-specific calls in it. BRILLIANT.
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16:55:57 <oerjan> "This wiki does not, however, recommend desecrating Burial Grounds in India purely on the basis of this loophole."
16:58:35 * oerjan only recently returned to it
16:58:43 <Vonlebio> cpressey, well, noöne else uses Objective C.
16:59:27 <Vonlebio> I mean, there's a bit of software out there written in it, like Oolite, but it's so Mac/*step specific that it's not very portable.
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16:59:45 <cpressey> Vonlebio: Pity. Not that I'm a fan of the language or anything.
17:00:00 <cpressey> I mainly just want to run webkit2png.
17:00:13 <Vonlebio> cpressey, well s/not very portable/requires GNUStep to run on Windows and Linux.
17:04:14 <cpressey> I sometimes wonder if this planet is trying to complexity itself to death.
17:06:37 <Vonlebio> Because of the "we must design MORE LANGUAGES" mentality?
17:08:35 <cpressey> Wasn't thinking about languages specifically.
17:09:39 <Vorpal> oerjan, lost in tvtropes?
17:09:52 <Vorpal> oerjan, I managed to avoid following links
17:10:21 <Vonlebio> I have already been whipped away to McNinja, and show no signs of stopping.
17:10:24 <oerjan> i haven't clicked many, anyway
17:10:42 <Vorpal> I clicked one, the ominous fog one
17:11:09 <Vorpal> I learnt how to prevent myself from following links
17:12:20 <nooga> I like Objective C, I think it's much better than C++
17:12:34 <Vonlebio> "I will not follow the link. The link is in my mind. There is no link."
17:13:19 <nooga> pitty that it's practically usable only under OSX
17:13:30 <Vorpal> Vonlebio, w3m -dump is useful for the feebleminded
17:13:35 <Vorpal> that renders it without links
17:14:13 <cpressey> nooga: That part is what makes no sense to me. What other languages are so OS-dependant?
17:14:21 * Vonlebio has read enough of TV Tropes that he can avoid a massive tab explosion.
17:15:07 <Vorpal> Vonlebio, that isn't the way to do it, the way to do it is self control
17:15:13 <cpressey> "Massive Tab explosion" is what happens when you shake up a can of Tab really vigorously before you open it.
17:15:36 <Vonlebio> Vorpal, I'll do it the way I want, FASCIST
17:16:03 <Vorpal> cpressey, or mix mentos with tab
17:16:07 <nooga> cpressey: it's not the language, it's the library
17:16:45 <Vonlebio> cpressey, well, as I touched on, there are free versions of large parts of the libraries.
17:16:48 <nooga> there is no sense in writing ObjC without any libs
17:17:26 <cpressey> this script relies on pyobjc for two values: obj.YES and obj.NO.
17:17:40 <Vorpal> <cpressey> nooga: That part is what makes no sense to me. What other languages are so OS-dependant? <-- VAX shell language?
17:18:18 <Vonlebio> cpressey, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNUstep
17:19:55 <cpressey> Non-programmers who write scripts.
17:20:08 <cpressey> I guess the quotes weren't necessary...
17:22:11 <Vonlebio> Apparently GNUStep doesn't support PyObjC fully.
17:22:13 <cpressey> Render a web page and save it as a png. Should only need WebKit to do that
17:24:27 <cpressey> So I guess I'm going to try stripping this "useful Mac script" down to something that I can actually run
17:25:47 <Vonlebio> I think I've encountered a web-page-to-PNG renderer that only uses WebKit.
17:25:48 <cpressey> Or look for some other tool to do this
17:26:10 <cpressey> Yeah, that's a thing. Headlessness needed.
17:26:34 <Vonlebio> http://www.blogs.uni-osnabrueck.de/rotapken/2008/12/03/create-screenshots-of-a-web-page-using-python-and-qtwebkit/ is the relevant script.
17:28:27 <Vorpal> I need it to render to svg with embedded png for images!
17:30:26 <cpressey> Vonlebio: If it runs headless, I don't care. Actually, even if it doesn't, I can probably live with that. I'll need to run X in a VM though. Ugh.
17:30:58 <Vonlebio> cpressey, I recall headlessness being mentioned in a discussion elsewhere about a bot that uses that script.
17:32:58 <Vonlebio> Oh, it seems to need some form of X server running.
17:35:25 <Vorpal> cpressey, what do you need this for?
17:35:51 <Vonlebio> cpressey, what does "headless" mean here?
17:35:58 <Vonlebio> It can run on a displayless computer?
17:36:58 <cpressey> Vonlebio: It means I don't want to have to mess with graphics. Apparently that means "xvfb".
17:37:20 <fizzie> Xvfb is eas... gah. I should never even attempt to say anything.
17:38:06 <Vonlebio> cpressey, well, you might want to try making the script work yourself.
17:38:17 <fizzie> I used to run Matlab under Xvfb, because with "-nodisplay" some image-drawing functions randomly segfaulted every now and then.
17:39:01 <cpressey> Vonlebio: That's what I'm doing. And... WOW, was that ever interesting.
17:39:28 <Vonlebio> cpressey, interesting in what sense?
17:39:36 <cpressey> Oh, I see. It spit the png out to stdout :)
17:40:12 <Vonlebio> Interesting in the "wow, that's clever!" sense or interesting in the "AAAAH it's trying to kill me with a screwdriver!" sense?
17:41:37 <cpressey> And, it worked! Nice. I am happier now.
17:42:03 <cpressey> Oh, it supports it as a cmdline option. Also nice. I just ran it manually.
17:42:22 <nooga> cpressey: but scripting languages are programming languages
17:42:57 <Vonlebio> nooga, yeah, but they're more accessible to the uneducated.
17:44:36 <cpressey> It's more that they let you write code without thinking about its overall structure.
17:44:42 <Vonlebio> Who would write a screengrabber with Java?
17:44:48 <cpressey> Java and C# don't have that tendency.
17:46:30 <Vonlebio> I'll probably go back by tomorrow.
17:47:44 <alise> <Vonlebio> I've observed before that xkcd's format is increasingly similar to that of SMBC. ;; but worse
17:48:11 <alise> <cpressey> I love how PyObjC is like this "Mac thing".
17:48:11 <alise> <cpressey> Er, yeah, to the degree that it's setup script actually has Mac-specific calls in it. ;; nobody, and I mean nobody, uses objc outside of either OS X or GnuStep
17:48:13 <alise> and only morons use GnuStep
17:48:47 <alise> <cpressey> I mainly just want to run webkit2png. ;; I think webkit/objc is os x-specific
17:48:57 <oerjan> gnus don't step, they stampede
17:49:07 <Vonlebio> Or people who wrote Mac software and later thought "hey, it would have been nice if this was portable".
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17:50:00 <alise> <cpressey> Render a web page and save it as a png. Should only need WebKit to do that ;; paul hammond is a programmer afaik
17:50:54 <cpressey> alise: Anyway, problem solved.
17:51:30 <alise> cpressey: Hey hey hey, there are some cool mac programmers. :)
17:52:15 <cpressey> I'm dead serious when I say that all Mac programmers are scum, of course.
17:54:07 <Vonlebio> I was a Mac programmer for about 3 months!
17:57:44 <cpressey> Vonlebio: Was this that course where they taught you to program in HyperCard?
17:58:23 <alise> music tagging is so subtle. i love it
17:58:23 <Vonlebio> It was when the only computer I had was a Mac, and I was beginning to learn to program.
17:59:09 <alise> pikhq: Wow, I actually found what I consider an error, not merely a difference of opinion, in MusicBrainz.
17:59:16 <alise> I mean, sure, it's /justifiable/, but I still think it's Wrong.
17:59:25 <Vonlebio> So I was only a Mac programmer in a pedantic sense.
17:59:38 <alise> pikhq: http://musicbrainz.org/release/4b374b09-2e39-47a3-9819-8a0eae21db66.html All the tracks were released as untitled; names for them, sans brackets, were then posted on their website.
18:00:01 <alise> pikhq: In my opinion, they should either stick to the release - in which case they should all be "[untitled]" - or go with the posted names, thus removing the brackets.
18:00:07 <pikhq> alise: That's genuinely wrong.
18:00:09 <alise> As it stands, neither source agrees with the names they are given in MusicBrainz.
18:01:00 <alise> pikhq: But it's talked about above the track names, so presumably it's been "agreed "on.
18:02:19 <alise> pikhq: Meanwhile, I'm consdiering using mutagen (Quod Libet / Ex Falso's Python tagging module) to create a defuck_musicbrainz_tags script.
18:03:21 <alise> That is, eliminate albumartist if albumartist = artist for all tracks, eliminate albumartistsort, eliminate arranger, eliminate artistsort, eliminate asin, eliminate catalognumber, simplify date to just year, eliminate engineer, eliminate format, eliminate label, eliminate language, eliminate mixer, eliminate musicbrainz_*, eliminate performer, eliminate producer, eliminate release*, eliminate script.
18:03:32 <alise> Because good god that's excessively retarded tagging.
18:04:24 <alise> Oh, eliminate barcode too. And isrc.
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18:05:59 <cpressey> "This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful"
18:06:04 <cpressey> AND THAT HOPE IS LEGALLY BINDING
18:06:36 <alise> "I violated your license? Oh really? But you state on your website that 'this program is a useless piece of shit'. Doesn't sound like you HOPE IT WILL BE USEFUL... I'm suing your for VIOLATING YOUR OWN LICENSE."
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18:07:28 <Vorpal> cpressey, what would that mean in practise?
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18:08:09 * Vorpal ponders putting "this program is distributed in the absurd hope that it will prove useful to someone" in a befunge-98 program
18:08:48 <cpressey> Vorpal: What would it be like if we all lived in gigantic egg cartons?
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18:09:28 <Vorpal> cpressey, problematic unless they were protected against the rain and snow in some way
18:09:41 <alise> pikhq: there's a music player twritten in \sh.
18:09:47 <alise> http://zomg.alioth.debian.org/
18:09:51 <alise> It supports (last|libre).fm.
18:10:00 <Vorpal> cpressey, what do you think?
18:11:14 <alise> i had a dream that i installed alsa
18:11:17 <alise> then i woke up and laughed at myself
18:11:18 <cpressey> Vorpal: Don't diss NextStep. Charles Sanders Peirce used NextStep.
18:11:26 <Vorpal> cpressey, I haven't done so
18:11:33 <Vorpal> cpressey, also who is that?
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18:12:02 <Vorpal> ah googling indicates he can't have
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18:12:10 <alise> Thirdly, . . . you don't fucking know who peirce is
18:12:22 <cpressey> Vorpal: I disagree. The pony is a perfectly integral part of the portrait. Without it, the balance of the middleground would be all off.
18:12:26 * pikhq should get coffee. And breakfast.
18:12:48 <Vorpal> cpressey, want some dried frog pills, old chap?
18:14:38 * cpressey should go to the bank. And get lunch.
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18:21:31 <Vonlebio> Be ye new to this garden of wonders?
18:22:13 <asta> what is this channel about?
18:22:24 <Vonlebio> Ostensibly, esoteric programming languages.
18:22:51 <asta> I didnt know of such a language
18:22:59 <asta> called like that
18:23:23 <Vonlebio> Well, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck is probably the canonical example.
18:23:50 <asta> those binary like languages
18:24:21 <Vonlebio> asta, machine code is pretty tame compared to some esolangs.
18:24:45 <asta> I don't really know
18:25:09 <pikhq> Vonlebio: Except for the bit about machine code not being meant to be output by humans. ;)
18:25:26 <Vonlebio> pikhq, that only deters those without motivation.
18:25:51 <Vonlebio> With ^V and a meta key, you can type most bytes, AFAIK.
18:27:19 <nooga> !sadol :i+19@i(3!i!"1 :i-i1
18:27:38 * pikhq notes that Chromium takes quite some time to build
18:27:55 -!- asta has quit (Quit: Saliendo).
18:28:24 <Vonlebio> Damn, another sane mind we can't destroy.
18:29:32 <nooga> another random newcomer that was blown away
18:30:35 <pikhq> alise: By *god* the Brainfuck Scheduler is impressive.
18:31:12 <Vonlebio> "BFS is unrelated to the brainfuck programming language."
18:31:28 <pikhq> nooga: It's only called "Brainfuck" because it's really absurdly simple, not due to any relation with the language.
18:31:33 <Vonlebio> I had something angry to shout, but I have forgotten what it was.
18:31:54 <alise> Brain Fuck Scheduler.
18:32:55 <alise> con kolivas requires no linking!
18:36:29 <Vonlebio> Bloody kernel programmers, stealing our names for things.
18:37:50 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
18:38:14 <alise> pikhq: Also flaw of MusicBrainz: They use "", don't and ....
18:38:30 <alise> Not “”, don’t and ….
18:40:19 <alise> pikhq: This is clearly UNACCEPTABLE!
18:40:23 <Vonlebio> " * P′′ was the first "GOTO-less" imperative structured programming language to be proven1,2 Turing-complete."
18:40:28 <pikhq> alise: ALL HAIL UNICODE
18:40:47 <Vonlebio> In '64? That seems a very long time...
18:41:06 <alise> pikhq: Of course, how to tag something that is /listed on the only website it's distributed on with a "..."/ is another matter entirely.
18:41:11 <alise> And I have no idea what the matter is.
18:41:27 -!- jcp has joined.
18:41:43 <alise> Vonlebio: well, computers were very immature in 60s
18:41:53 <alise> programming moreso
18:41:56 <alise> everyone just goto'd
18:42:19 <Vonlebio> alise, true, but the theory was fairly old.
18:42:26 <alise> nooga: 'cause they were
18:42:49 <Vonlebio> nooga, name a machine that supports structured programming on a machine level.
18:43:35 <nooga> i got new flatmate
18:44:07 <nooga> guy's from Nigeria and uses ghetto-like english
18:44:17 <nooga> i can't understand him at all
18:48:56 <alise> pikhq: Actually, the tracks of that album are arguably titled "untitled", not [untitled]...
18:49:03 <alise> Terribly confusing.
18:50:13 <Vorpal> <Vonlebio> nooga, name a machine that supports structured programming on a machine level.
18:50:52 <alise> Come to think of it, it's not even certain that the title is ( ).
18:57:29 <alise> print a[0]; print a[1]; print a[2]; etc
18:57:37 <alise> == for x in a { print x }
19:01:11 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
19:04:00 -!- Vonlebio has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
19:05:43 -!- Vonlebio has joined.
19:07:39 <Vorpal> Vonlebio, there is a brainfuck CPU iirc
19:12:10 <Vorpal> Vonlebio, you didn't specify that
19:17:53 -!- Gregor-W has joined.
19:18:01 <Gregor-W> zomgsicles! 's my last day at this internship!
19:18:53 <Vonlebio> Gregor-W, NOT WRITE PAPER ON WEBERNETS ANY MORE?
19:19:09 <Gregor-W> Still write papers on webernets!
19:19:16 <Gregor-W> (And according to the OED, it's "Interweb")
19:21:29 <oerjan> interns write papers on the internet, silly
19:22:52 * oerjan swats Gregor-W -----###
19:23:13 <oerjan> that _clearly_ misses an n
19:23:53 <Gregor-W> oerjan: http://www.economist.com/blogs/johnson/2010/08/new_words
19:24:11 <Sgeo> internwebernets?
19:25:21 <oerjan> also that clearly states that it wioll not haven been the OED
19:25:41 * oerjan swats Gregor-W again -----###
19:26:12 <oerjan> (for still not getting the pun after being prodded)
19:26:38 <Gregor-W> I see the pun, but I refuse to get it.
19:27:10 <oerjan> i know it felt strange, like an anti-pun
19:31:56 <alise> "As pointed out in the comments, these are additions to the one-volume Oxford Dictionary of English, and not the grand and celebrated OED. That changed the tenor of things a bit."
19:32:00 <alise> people are mistaking the two a lot recently
19:34:55 <pikhq> Fekking ODE. Such bullshit.
19:35:27 -!- augur has joined.
19:35:28 <oerjan> Oh ODE, how thee are. An ode.
19:48:29 -!- wareya_ has joined.
19:50:58 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
20:00:23 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:01:47 <Vorpal> <oerjan> interns write papers on the internet, silly <-- augh
20:03:25 <alise> ets write the internet on paper
20:04:03 <Vorpal> oerjan, and damn you beating me at the ode to ODE
20:13:34 <oerjan> these are ets, they probably use telekinesis
20:13:46 <alise> they use telekinesis to move their own hand.
20:14:26 <alise> well in nethack they're a &
20:19:12 <alise> (You do get it, right?)
20:19:57 <alise> http://pastie.org/1104745.txt?key=oxr3tpcdipt865rkbqzjog
20:20:01 <alise> In which Python gets gnarly.
20:20:12 <alise> *self.handlers.append
20:21:28 <alise> Erm, I need to handle flags == None
20:22:34 <cpressey> You can hardly call it gnarly if you haven't overridden a double-underscore method somewhere yet!
20:22:45 <Vonlebio> I'll have you know that I am a scholar of Latin!
20:22:59 <alise> cpressey: Can it count as more gnarly if this is from an /IRC bot/?
20:23:46 <Vonlebio> # FIXME: Handle exceptions (call some exception handler?)
20:23:48 <cpressey> alise: A bit, but it depends a lot on what's calling it. If you're somehow actually managing to use the decorator syntax to apply this, then TOTALLY YES.
20:24:01 <Vonlebio> Well, that is an appropriate way of handling exceptions.
20:24:33 <Vonlebio> I haven't been able to tolerate decorators since I saw those "monads" in Python.
20:24:53 <alise> @on_message(r'^\?(.*)$')
20:24:54 <alise> def consult(ctx, topic):
20:24:54 <alise> topic = topic.lower()
20:24:54 <alise> if topic in wisdom:
20:24:54 <alise> ctx.reply('%s is %s' % (topic, wisdom[topic]))
20:24:57 <alise> ctx.reply(random.choice(dunno) % (topic,))
20:25:14 <alise> cpressey: i.e., if a message comes in that looks like "?foo bar", we dispense some wisdom about it.
20:25:23 <alise> Wisdom-enhancing process:
20:25:25 <alise> @on_addressed(r'(.+?) is (.+)')
20:25:25 <alise> def enlighten(ctx, topic, knowledge):
20:25:25 <alise> wisdom[topic] = knowledge
20:25:25 <alise> ctx.reply(random.choice(thanks))
20:25:40 <alise> i.e. "botte: dung is awesome" -> "?dung" "dung is awesome"
20:25:43 <Vonlebio> alise, this wouldn't be for Rodney, would it?
20:25:48 <alise> Vonlebio: no, it's for botte
20:25:52 <alise> I decided to finally write botte v1
20:25:57 <alise> and this is the infobot plugin ("wisdom")
20:26:16 <cpressey> I wasn't aware decorators could take a 'self' like that. I feel very dirty now.
20:26:30 <alise> cpressey: How is it taking a self?
20:26:33 <alise> cpressey: Oh, no, that's my doing.
20:26:39 <alise> def load_plugin(self):
20:26:40 <alise> 'on_message': self.on_message,
20:26:40 <alise> 'on_addressed': self.on_addressed,
20:26:40 <alise> 'Unhandled': Unhandled,
20:26:55 <alise> I /could/ put them in a separate object, but it's more convenient to use "self.bot" and the like, so I keep them in the Plugin class.
20:27:26 <cpressey> Yes. That is exactly what you are scoring the gnarly points with.
20:27:46 <alise> It's not actually that gnarly, just... overly indented.
20:27:56 <Vonlebio> alise, yes, but will it interpret esolangs??
20:28:14 <alise> and non-esolangs (I was executing arbitrary code before HackEgo and EgoBot, back in the day)
20:28:27 <alise> and a variety of commands ranging from completely useless to vaguely useful
20:28:36 <alise> and commands to look up -- dictionaries, wikipedia, google, etc.
20:28:38 <alise> probably a karma system
20:28:46 <alise> basically it's the One Bot to Rule Them All
20:28:51 <alise> and i've been promising to write it for over a year now
20:29:15 <alise> this is just v1, i will undoubtedly rewrite the entire infrastructure many times before it can do all that
20:29:25 <fizzie> fungot: Are you going to take that sort of talk without a fight?
20:29:25 <fungot> fizzie: because you can have a k in it
20:30:17 <fizzie> I guess that was a "yes".
20:30:27 <alise> fizzie: he accepts my bot's superiority because i can have a K interpreter
20:30:31 <alise> whereas fungot, being written in befunge, cannot.
20:30:32 <fungot> alise: so parrot was based around gcc?
20:30:40 <alise> `addquote <fungot> alise: so parrot was based around gcc?
20:30:41 <fungot> alise: esolangs.org/ wiki/ index.php?title=main_page use exact numbers. you can imagine. and it probably no longer say that our aim cost/ user is pretty low
20:30:44 <alise> fungot: Sure, let's go with that.
20:30:44 <fungot> alise: currently fnord.
20:30:56 <HackEgo> 216|<fungot> alise: so parrot was based around gcc?
20:30:59 <alise> Vonlebio: Oh, and, of course, a Better Log Bot.
20:31:17 <Vonlebio> alise, i.e. able to handle Unicode nicely?
20:31:27 <Vonlebio> Or being told to shut up if we need it to?
20:31:28 <alise> Well, clog does, the web server just doesn't tell you.
20:31:35 -!- derdon has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:31:38 <alise> Vonlebio: With logs imported from clog and fizzie's logs in a unified format, new logs appended 24/7, a nice web interface (no need to reformat or get a headache)
20:31:44 <Vonlebio> For when we discuss top secret things.
20:31:44 <alise> No shutting up, don't say stupid shit in here :)
20:31:59 <alise> And greppable logs too.
20:32:04 <alise> And always in UTC format (reformatting the older logs).
20:32:11 <alise> Greppable = web interface to regexp and freetext search
20:32:11 <Vonlebio> But what if we need to discuss SECRETS?
20:32:23 <alise> and date constraints
20:33:15 <alise> Vonlebio: I think this is a pretty clean infobot plugin: http://pastie.org/1104765.txt?key=oqqptogcuv8u5318ladxa
20:33:23 <alise> Without the colourful responses, it'd only be a few lines.
20:33:38 <alise> Vonlebio: infobot is the thing that lets people give definitions of stuff, then recall them later
20:34:35 <alise> for instance, a serious use:
20:34:36 <alise> <expert> botte: brainfuck is probably the most popular esolang, invented by Urban Müller in 1992
20:34:36 <alise> <botte> expert: Duly noted.
20:34:36 <alise> <botte> noob: brainfuck is probably the most popular esolang, invented by Urban Müller in 1992
20:35:07 <alise> <expert> botte: botte is afraid of introspection
20:35:07 <alise> <botte> expert: Ah! I get it now.
20:35:08 <alise> <botte> person: botte is afraid of introspection
20:35:16 <alise> (<expert> botte: lolcode is an abomination)
20:35:34 -!- Gregor-W has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
20:35:38 <alise> hmm, i should support are as well as is
20:35:41 <alise> "esolangs are sweet" etc.
20:35:50 <Vonlebio> alise, lolcode isn't that bad.
20:36:48 <alise> A bunch of incompetent morons with a retarded enough sense of humour to think a language based on lolcat speak is amusing, forming Committees and having Design Discussions to create a Versioned Specification combining the most braindead ways of implementing conventional, boring but somehow altered to be moronic, language facets.
20:37:16 <alise> SimonRC took part in the specification of one to troll them; he managed to get them to include two different ways of doing the same thing just because he argued about it.
20:37:24 <alise> (Like, the exact same thing.)
20:37:30 <alise> Vonlebio: That bit -- you mean all of it?
20:37:50 <Vonlebio> Although I thought having "GTFO" for break was mildly amusing.
20:38:20 <Vorpal> cpressey, didn't you know?
20:38:43 <cpressey> OMG CPRESSEY ARE YOU FALLING BEHIND ON WEBTERNET MEME-NEWS???
20:38:55 <Vorpal> cpressey, YES HORRIBLE ISN'T IT?
20:39:58 <Vonlebio> alise, maybe it's boring, conventional stupidity taken to the max.
20:40:39 <Vorpal> <Vonlebio> I haven't been able to tolerate decorators since I saw those "monads" in Python.
20:41:05 <Vonlebio> Python's type system can't do monads, AFAIK.
20:41:34 <Vorpal> yes that is what I thought
20:41:38 <Vorpal> so link to the "monads"
20:41:41 <Vonlebio> http://www.valuedlessons.com/2008/01/monads-in-python-with-nice-syntax.html
20:42:02 <Vonlebio> It might be possible in a certain sense, though.
20:42:42 <Vonlebio> Since Python has first-class types(/classes), so you perhaps might be able to have something like functors etc.
20:43:44 <Vorpal> " I'm using ">>" (__rshift__) overloaded to mean "bind". " <-- aaaaaaaargh
20:43:51 <Vorpal> I hate operator overloading abuse
20:44:02 <Vonlebio> He should have overloaded >>=.
20:44:11 <Vorpal> Vonlebio, it's just as bad as C++ bitshifting of strings into stdout/stdin
20:44:25 <Vorpal> Vorpal, does python have that separately?
20:44:31 <Vonlebio> Vorpal, well, it's at least slightly justified
20:44:40 <Vonlebio> And why do you keep talking to yourself?
20:44:45 <alise> as we all know string+string is abuse
20:44:48 <alise> it should be string*string!
20:45:03 <Vorpal> Vonlebio, see the issue?
20:45:17 <Vorpal> Vonlebio, change nick :P
20:45:37 <Vonlebio> Vonlebio, NEVER! I made this nick up with my own sweat and blood!
20:45:53 <Vonlebio> You just stole a word from Jabberwocky!
20:45:54 <cpressey> apparently monads are "estoric"
20:48:12 <Vorpal> cpressey, I thought nomads were the esoteric ones
20:48:58 <alise> i didn't invent monads dammit
20:49:02 <alise> it's just an old /prog/ meme
20:49:04 <cpressey> Vonlebio: The cpressey school of monads doesn't regard them as having anything to do with types. For whatever you might care about that.
20:49:26 <alise> The Retarded Monkey School of Nomic is comprised entirely of stoned English teachers.
20:49:31 <alise> For whatever you might care about that.
20:49:49 <alise> The motto is "I SAY I DO" / "THEREFORE I DO", except in Latin.
20:50:11 <Vonlebio> cpressey, well, monads are, by definition, functors.
20:50:41 <cpressey> alise: Oh, is that what it translates to? I always thought it was something about throwing your own poo around. But, my Latin is pretty shoddy.
20:51:03 <alise> cpressey: Yes, well.
20:51:22 <alise> ANTE SHITTUS ERGO SELF SHITTUS can be deceiving.
20:51:48 <Vonlebio> See my above comment re: Latin.
20:53:55 <Vonlebio> cpressey, what does the cpressey school of monads say?
20:54:10 <Vonlebio> That a monad is something with bind and return?
20:55:52 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monad_(category_theory)
20:56:05 <cpressey> That a monad is an encapsulation of the pattern of passing an argument between a set of functions.
20:56:22 <alise> It really, really isn't.
20:56:25 <alise> See, for instance, the continuation monad.
20:56:30 <alise> What you're describing is the STATE monad.
20:56:34 <alise> Which is one, single monad.
20:56:57 <Vonlebio> cpressey, you seem to be using a lot of professional developmenty terms here.
20:57:14 <cpressey> So the continuation monad isn't intended to pass a continuation between a set of functions? That's... quite surprising.
20:57:43 <pikhq> cpressey: No, the continuation monad performs the continuation-passing transform.
20:57:43 <Vonlebio> cpressey, most monads are used to pass some kind of state "behind the scenes", but how they do this varies considerably.
20:57:56 -!- sftp has joined.
20:58:00 <cpressey> Vonlebio: Yes, well. I develop software. Surprise?
20:58:51 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
20:59:03 <Vonlebio> Anyway, the Maybe monad hides state, i.e. whether any computation fails, but it doesn't use hidden arguments.
20:59:40 <pikhq> That's not hiding any state at all.
21:00:04 <Vonlebio> In hindsight, that was not really correct.
21:01:06 -!- augur has joined.
21:02:25 <cpressey> pikhq: Do you mean "support" the CPS transform, i.e. run code that has been transformed into continuation-passing style? Because I can't see how a monad could possibly "transform" code in that sense.
21:03:04 <alise> cpressey: please read the cont monad source
21:03:30 <alise> tough, you can't explain something like this to someone with such a broken mindset on it :p
21:03:35 <Vorpal> [207317.177787] gnome-settings-[1874]: segfault at 8 ip 00007f330e009d16 sp 00007fff1bac08b0 error 4 in libclipboard.so[7f330e007000+5000]
21:03:41 <Vorpal> ARGH EVERYTHING LOOKS BROKEN
21:03:44 <Vonlebio> "In functional programming, a monad is a kind of abstract data type constructor used to represent computations (instead of data in the domain model)."
21:03:56 <Vonlebio> Vorpal, stop dragging our THEORY down.
21:04:03 <alise> Vonlebio: that's not even good theory
21:04:38 <alise> cpressey: newtype Cont r a = Cont { runCont :: (a -> r) -> r }
21:04:46 <alise> instance Monad (Cont r) where
21:04:47 <alise> return n = Cont (\k -> k n)
21:04:47 <alise> m >>= f = Cont (\k -> runCont m (\a -> runCont (f a) k))
21:04:57 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
21:05:04 <pikhq> It really truly does the continuation-passing transform.
21:05:11 <alise> pikhq: well, almost
21:05:13 <alise> do notation does the rest
21:05:25 <pikhq> alise: Well. Yeah.
21:05:26 <alise> in fact do notation does most of it
21:05:31 <alise> but it's still more than just passing an argument around
21:05:42 <alise> if we had type synonyms as instances in a proper way
21:05:43 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
21:05:44 <alise> we could say, more simply,
21:06:13 <cpressey> Yeah, I have no idea what that's doing.
21:06:32 <Vonlebio> cpressey, can't you see he's TYPING?
21:07:08 <alise> instance Monad ((a -> r) -> r) where
21:07:09 <alise> return n = \k -> k n -- i.e. take a continuation, give it the returned value
21:07:09 <alise> m >>= g = \k -> m (\a -> f a k) -- i.e. take a continuation, run m with our continuation; pass the result on to f, and tell f to use the continuation we got as its continuation
21:07:58 * Sgeo should probably shave
21:08:11 <alise> what's the IRC terminology for the sender of a message, be it a server or a user?
21:11:59 <Vorpal> alise, what about "sender of a message, be it a server or a user"
21:12:21 <Vorpal> Sgeo, beard >> no beard
21:13:58 <Warrigal> alise: like, the direct sender, the guy I got the message directly from, as opposed to the guy whose name is in the message's prefix?
21:14:28 <alise> Warrigal: the guy in the :... beginning.
21:14:34 -!- wareya_ has changed nick to wareya.
21:14:42 <Warrigal> Oh, so it is the guy in the prefix.
21:17:27 -!- derdon has joined.
21:20:27 <cpressey> pikhq: I still have to say I disagree, based on what I learned "the continuation-passing transform" is. If you have a program written in non-CPS, the continuation monad cannot turn it into a program written in CPS. It could /support/ you, or some compiler, doing that transformation: you could rewrite the code in CPS in a way that uses that monad. Presumably we simply have different understandings of what the "transfor
21:20:30 <alise> Warrigal: Got a better name than "reply_to" for -- say ":<sender> PRIVMSG <target> :<message>" -- if target = me { sender } else { target }
21:20:40 <alise> i.e. "where to send replies to"
21:21:48 <Warrigal> Not unless you want to call it "window" or something.
21:23:03 <alise> Warrigal: maybe "postcard"
21:23:05 <alise> (replies on a ...)
21:23:19 <pikhq> cpressey: It does perform that precise transform on code written using >>= and return. :)
21:23:43 <pikhq> However, it only really provides this on code within that monad. Because monads are not magic.
21:24:16 <Vonlebio> cpressey, it doesn't CPSify normal code; it allows code to be written in CPS easily.
21:24:42 <cpressey> And I'm failing to see how this is substantially different from abstracting away (encapsulating) a "continuation" parameter to a bunch of functions.
21:26:35 <alise> Indeed you are failing in such a manner.
21:27:40 <cpressey> Perhaps I should clarify -- when I used the word "encapsulate" I did mean to imply that the monad can "do stuff that you can't see" with the extra argument. If that implication wasn't conveyed strongly enough, I could see how you would think I was only talking about the state monad (= don't do anything to the extra argument.)
21:28:38 <cpressey> Like, if it wasn't obvious: in the absence of monads, the CPS transform *adds* an argument to all your functions.
21:29:15 <Vonlebio> cpressey, monads don't necessarily have a hidden argument.
21:29:54 <cpressey> How would you implement those patterns if you didn't have monads?
21:30:11 <Vonlebio> cpressey, well, Maybe can be done without monads.
21:31:05 <Vonlebio> cpressey, http://www.haskell.org/all_about_monads/html/meet.html
21:32:22 -!- alise has changed nick to botte.
21:32:43 <botte> -NickServ- Invalid password for botte.
21:33:24 -!- botte has changed nick to alise.
21:35:19 -!- Vonlebio has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:35:37 -!- Vonlebio has joined.
21:40:46 <alise> File "/home/ehird/src/botte/plugins/wisdom.py", line 23, in consult
21:40:46 <alise> if topic in wisdom:
21:40:46 <alise> NameError: global name 'wisdom' is not defined
21:42:27 <alise> It'll be my namespace fuckery that's breaking it...
21:46:38 <Vonlebio> Incidentally, I was wondering if it was possible to do dependent types in Python in some form.
21:47:10 <Vonlebio> By "form" I mean "horrifically ugly hack", of course.
21:47:36 <alise> does habnabit ever do anything but interrogate you so he can tell you you're doing the wrong thing?
21:49:18 <alise> "how can i do a, b, c?" <habnabit> don't do that <habnabit> what are you trying to do? "I am trying to ..." <habnabit> don't do that
21:49:25 <alise> and no question ever finds a simple answer.
21:49:42 <alise> WE INTERROGATE YOU ABOUT WHAT YOU WANT TO DO, NOT ACTUALLY ANSWER YOUR QUESTIONS!
21:50:40 <Vonlebio> alise, you lose points for capitalising all of questions and thus missing the Qu ligature.
21:52:26 <alise> i'm using another font now
21:53:14 <Vonlebio> How can you use a font without the Qu ligature‽
21:56:03 <Vorpal> Vonlebio, the same way I can use dejavu sans mono 9pt for irc?
21:56:09 <cpressey> Vonlebio: Well, you're not going to like my answer to that (the Maybe monad thing.)
21:57:05 <Vonlebio> I want to hear it in any case.
21:57:53 <cpressey> You can have a perfectly usable Maybe without treating it as a monad, yes?
21:58:14 <cpressey> Then, as monads go, it's a degenerate case.
21:58:27 <Vonlebio> But treating it as a monad makes code far better.
21:58:46 <Vonlebio> It's shorter and more easily maintained, and you get the do syntactic sugar.
21:59:09 <Vonlebio> And you can use State and Cont without treating them as monads.
21:59:20 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
21:59:27 <Vonlebio> It's just going to be horribe.
21:59:41 <cpressey> That's missing the point very much.
21:59:46 <Ilari> Heh.... there's nick called McHazard on this IRC network... Wonder what kind of thing would McHazard be in McDonalds? :->
22:00:20 <Vonlebio> In any case, it's not a "degenerate case" of monads.
22:00:29 <alise> pikhq: How did you get Quod Libet to display multi-disc albums reasonably?
22:00:37 <alise> <cpressey> You can have a perfectly usable Maybe without treating it as a monad, yes?
22:00:44 <Vonlebio> It is a monad, and it obeys the monad laws; there's no other definition.
22:00:44 <alise> Not in the way the Maybe monad does it.
22:00:58 <alise> Ilari: any item on the mcdonald's menu
22:01:42 <Ilari> How about Supersize coke, supersize fries, chicken salad with low-fat dressing?
22:01:46 <EgoBot> data Maybe a = Nothing | Just a -- Defined in Data.Maybe
22:01:57 <alise> Ilari: Psht, salad?
22:03:41 <Ilari> Well, the hamburger would contain too much protein and too much good fats, so it isn't optimal here... :-)
22:03:42 <Vonlebio> cpressey, I mean, if you redefine monads, you can say whatever you want about them.
22:04:05 <alise> Ilari: Well. It's arguable whether McDonald's hamburgers even contain meat. :P
22:04:18 <Vonlebio> If a cpressey-monad is an encapsulation of extra parameters, then you are entirely correct.
22:04:34 <Vonlebio> But that's not what a computer science-monad is.
22:05:05 <cpressey> Vonlebio: Nor a category theory monad either, which is also slightly different, I agree.
22:05:16 <alise> category theory monad = computer science monad
22:05:33 <cpressey> It's got a more specific name in category theory.
22:06:35 <Vonlebio> cpressey, it's not immediately obvious, no
22:06:41 <alise> I'll declare war on Germany!
22:07:22 <cpressey> "As a minor terminological mismatch, the term monad in functional programming contexts is usually used with a meaning corresponding to that of the term strong monad in category theory, a specific kind of category-theoretical monad."
22:08:11 <cpressey> That's beside the point though.
22:08:25 -!- augur has joined.
22:08:51 <Vonlebio> cpressey, OK, and a cpressey-monad is nothing to do with a CS-monad.
22:09:10 <cpressey> Vonlebio: It's not a CS monad, but it's related.
22:09:22 <cpressey> I actually think I'm trying to get at the idea of an SE monad here.
22:09:44 <cpressey> i.e. *why* would you pick a monad to implement your solution? because your solution follows a certain pattern.
22:10:00 <Vonlebio> cpressey, true, but that pattern is not a cpressey-monad either.
22:10:37 <Vonlebio> Again, see the Maybe example I linked.
22:10:46 <Vonlebio> The pattern is dealing with simple failure cases.
22:12:25 <cpressey> Hm, OK. I might be able to restate my idea. But it would be nice to have a more sophisticated counterexample than Maybe.
22:13:36 <Vonlebio> cpressey, well, Cont, but that's a point of contention for you.
22:17:14 <Vonlebio> cpressey, hang on, IIRC Real World Haskell has some practical use cases for monads.
22:17:38 <cpressey> Vonlebio: I know practical use cases for monads; I'm trying to *generalize* from them, is the problem.
22:17:45 <Sgeo> alise, Fine Structure?
22:17:52 <alise> Sgeo: haven't read.
22:18:28 <Vonlebio> cpressey, well, often it's to make some bookkeeping easier.
22:18:45 <Vonlebio> I *think* that's basically what Maybe, State and perhaps Cont do.
22:19:28 <cpressey> Vonlebio: Yes, but that's probably a little too general.
22:21:33 <alise> I /think/ I finally have a tagset I'm happy with now.
22:22:01 <Vonlebio> cpressey, well, there are lots of less general patterns for which you'd use monads.
22:22:07 <Vonlebio> Keeping track of state, for instance.
22:22:17 <Sgeo> "If you can imagine it, you can build it! Create games and worlds in this building game."
22:22:29 <Sgeo> Well, of course I'm going to click
22:22:58 <Sgeo> It seems to be some lego thing
22:23:15 <Sgeo> "ROBLOX IS a kid-friendly place on the internet where your children can exercise their creativity in a moderated online environment."
22:23:29 <alise> So if you imagine, say, horsecat rape, you can't build it.
22:24:50 <alise> Actually what all this is making me realise is that modern audio and tagging formats SUCK for anything vaguely resembling classical music.
22:24:54 <Sgeo> "Don't like our clothes? Make your own!"
22:25:05 <Sgeo> Sounding like a crappy Kaneva so far
22:25:11 <alise> The honking-big-audio-file + time-tagged metadata file approach is beginning to look appealing to me.
22:25:34 <Sgeo> Of course, if there's any scripting-like stuff, I want in
22:26:30 <Sgeo> "Featured Free Game:"
22:26:35 <Sgeo> "By: NINJAKID09"
22:26:38 <Sgeo> That's promising
22:26:57 <Vonlebio> Never trust someone with numbers in their screen name.
22:26:59 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
22:27:03 <alise> pikhq: Do you know anything about your country's copyright office?
22:27:04 * cpressey hopes NINJAKID09 is not one year old.
22:27:25 <Sgeo> "User forum: Scripting forum"
22:27:36 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:27:39 <alise> SERIOUSLY HOW DO I FIND THIS IN THE US COPYRIGHT OFFICE'S WEBSITE
22:27:49 <alise> maybe it's only copyrighted in canada :P
22:28:21 <alise> coppro: do you have "canada" on highlight?
22:28:23 <Sgeo> http://www.roblox.com/Forum/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=13247888
22:28:28 <coppro> alise: no, I just walked in
22:28:30 <alise> i'm trying to look up the copyright registration for an album to determine its true title
22:28:37 <alise> it was recorded, released etc. in canada
22:28:47 <alise> so i'm trying to see if canada's IP office has a search form
22:28:50 <alise> (the US one turned up nothing)
22:29:15 <coppro> at least, not a good one
22:29:19 <alise> coppro: a bad one will d
22:29:38 <alise> http://www.ic.gc.ca/app/opic-cipo/cpyrghts/dsplySrch.do?lang=eng
22:29:40 <coppro> http://www.ic.gc.ca/app/opic-cipo/cpyrghts/dsplySrch.do?lang=eng
22:29:42 <alise> ok, i'll try band name first, then label names
22:30:14 <Sgeo> I don't think there are any pure social areas in Roblox
22:30:18 <alise> coppro: sheesh, how come the insidious claws of copyright are so untamed like this :)
22:30:25 <alise> you can't even look shit up to see whether it's copyrighted!
22:31:00 <coppro> alise: because the Berne convention did away with registration to obtain copyright
22:31:11 <cpressey> alise: Given that... what coppro said
22:31:20 <alise> coppro: i'm still uncertain that was a good idea
22:31:24 <cpressey> I was going to say, it wuold make more sense to have a registry of public-domain works instead
22:32:03 <Vonlebio> cpressey, would it help your quest for monad patterns to look at more of the existing monads?
22:32:04 <cpressey> Not saying it's not a stupid idea
22:32:08 * Sgeo vaguely hopes that it's not inappropriate for adults to be in Roblox
22:32:19 <cpressey> Vonlebio: Only if you know of some EXCITING ones.
22:32:26 <alise> <coppro> yuck ;; to cpressey's comment?
22:33:05 <Vonlebio> cpressey, well... Parsec uses a monad, but that's a) a bit opaque and b) basically an instance of the State general case.
22:33:18 <alise> coppro: but albums will surely be registered explicitly by the record label?
22:33:50 <alise> it appears it is not in their database. rats.
22:33:58 <coppro> a record label probably has enough internal documentation to make registration redundante
22:34:30 <alise> wikipedia claims it's one thing with the other title being referred to as an "also known as...", it's seemingly mostly listed as the wikipedia title on amazon, but discogs, musicbrainz and their (admittedly slapdash) official website refer to it as the other one
22:34:36 <alise> so i have absolutely no idea what the real title is
22:34:43 <alise> (they're minor variations on each other)
22:34:45 <Vonlebio> cpressey, the things in Control.Monad for me are: Cont, Error, Fix, Identity, Instances, List, RWS, Reader, ST, State, Trans and Writer.
22:35:03 <alise> coppro: ok, can i demand they give me their db? :D
22:36:07 <Vonlebio> Reader and Writer are basically the two halves of State.
22:36:09 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
22:38:33 <Sgeo> It just _assumes_ that I'm a child
22:38:43 <Sgeo> Not only that, but that my email address is my parent's
22:38:58 <alise> Sgeo didn't like the signup form for disneybarbiedollcompany.com
22:39:13 <alise> *disneybarbiedollcompanyplayhouse.com.
22:40:01 <Sgeo> http://pastie.org/private/4daesglfyhtm3td2b9d1a
22:40:52 <Vonlebio> Sgeo, you're evidently the guy from All You Zombies.
22:40:57 <Sgeo> "Users can type their own messages to other users. Every message is filtered to allow only pre-approved words and phrases."
22:41:15 <Sgeo> Vonlebio, I don't get it
22:42:21 <alise> Vonlebio: *“—All You Zombies—”
22:42:25 <Sgeo> Vonlebio, oh, I've heard of it before
22:43:43 <Vonlebio> alise, I can't be bothered to type Heinlein's weird dashes.
22:43:56 <alise> Vonlebio: And quote marks.
22:44:21 <alise> Technically, if you're on a linear medium where you can't italicise the names of works, you should call it ‘“—All You Zombies—”’.
22:44:39 <alise> Or if you really like using double quote marks and don't mind distorting the name of the work, “‘—All You Zombies—’”.
22:44:59 <alise> Or if you really like using double quote marks and don't want to distort the name of the work, ““—All You Zombies—””.
22:45:21 <cpressey> Or just say "RH's AYZ" and we'll all know what you mean.
22:45:29 <Sgeo> Or, if you like abbreviations and destroying the name of the work... damn it, cpressey
22:45:44 <alise> cpressey: That's not so likely. :)
22:53:56 <cpressey> You're right, better make that "RAH's AYZ".
23:12:10 <cpressey> You were coding web apps in Ruby?
23:13:32 <cpressey> Vonlebio: I just remembered her saying something about that a few days ago
23:14:37 -!- ais523 has joined.
23:15:54 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Quit: Quit).
23:20:01 <Vonlebio> ais523, I found a fatal flaw in your Wolfram TM universality proof.
23:20:21 <ais523> what do you think it is?
23:20:44 <Vonlebio> Your screen name is half numbers; as such, you are statistically 7 years old.
23:20:50 -!- derdon has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
23:21:36 <ais523> and even if I'm a bit young for a mathematician, it doesn't mean I can't prove things
23:21:42 <ais523> it was mostly a programming problem
23:21:56 <ais523> alise is quite a bit younger than me, for instance, but an excellent programmer
23:22:11 <Vonlebio> ais523, true, but his screen name contains no numbers
23:22:38 <ais523> really, though, if I used a different screenname, would it matter?
23:22:40 -!- ais523 has changed nick to scarf.
23:22:52 <Vonlebio> See? The proof is instantly reliable.
23:23:04 <cpressey> Little known fact: "scarf" is short for "scarface".
23:23:15 <scarf> hmm, not intentionally
23:23:23 <cpressey> Now, would YOU trust a proof coming from Organized Crime?
23:23:34 <Sgeo> cpressey, if it were correct, yes
23:23:39 <scarf> cpressey: you're jumping to conclusions here
23:23:57 <Vonlebio> Sgeo, you support criminal mathematics?
23:23:58 <scarf> most people with facial disfigurement are probably not actually criminals
23:24:01 <Sgeo> I'd trust a proof made by blind monkeys if it were correct
23:24:10 <Vonlebio> scarf, yeah, that's what they tell you.
23:24:17 <scarf> except in the case that there are so many laws that are hard to remember that most people have probably broken several by accident
23:24:54 <Vonlebio> scarf, all mathematics is wrong.
23:25:05 <scarf> certainly possible
23:25:16 <scarf> but you can prove things given that it's correct
23:25:48 <Sgeo> And if it's incorrect, you can prove everything!
23:25:52 <Sgeo> </probably-mistaken>
23:26:39 <scarf> Sgeo: nah, the "a contradiction implies anything" proof would be similarly suspect
23:27:42 <scarf> this is much like the whole free-will vs. determinism thing; there is no plausible advantage you can gain from not believing you have free will, because if you do, you're correct and thus working from correct assumptions, and if you don't, it doesn't matter what you believe as it won't make any difference
23:27:57 <alise> <ais523> alise is quite a bit younger than me, for instance, but an excellent programmer
23:28:25 <scarf> heh, I might /just/ be famous enough that that testimonial actually works
23:28:28 <scarf> although I doubt it somehow
23:28:40 <Vonlebio> alise, that's, like, two steps of testimony from Wolfram.
23:28:42 <alise> <cpressey> alise: WAITAMINIT
23:28:42 <alise> <cpressey> You were coding web apps in Ruby? ;; technically, they were quite interesting web apps, and i got fed up of rails and started creating crazy frameworks in a day or so, but yes
23:28:53 <alise> Vonlebio: Yeah -- two steps higher. Two BIG steps higher.
23:29:26 <Vonlebio> scarf, quick, endorse me, too.
23:29:39 <scarf> Vonlebio: testimony from Wolfram would be considered a negative by many people...
23:29:53 <Vonlebio> scarf, so the buffering makes it even better!
23:30:26 <Vonlebio> I can just say "I was endorsed by winner of mathematics prize Alex Smith".
23:30:58 <alise> Vonlebio: inventor of several popular specialist programming languages
23:31:11 <alise> (they're popular in the specialism (or, however you say it) they were invented in)
23:31:20 <scarf> hmm, what have I invented esolang-wise that's actually popular?
23:31:20 <Vonlebio> And nearest thing to a creator of Feather.
23:31:29 <cpressey> alise: Oh, I dunno. Something about recognizing and pointing out the steps being *higher* I guess.
23:31:31 <scarf> out of all my langs, Underload's the only one which caught on to any extent
23:31:47 <alise> scarf: well, they're popular in here
23:31:50 <scarf> and only among a few people
23:31:51 <alise> as a topic of discussion
23:31:56 <Vonlebio> You know, after the Forth Bridge being painted, that's going to have to be my incompletable task.
23:32:02 <cpressey> scarf: Underload is awesomeness.
23:32:04 <alise> scarf: well ... occasionally
23:32:16 <alise> as popular as any single non-standard (in the sense of pop standard) can be
23:32:17 <scarf> can you name another esolang I've created, straight off? (Feather doesn't count)
23:32:35 <alise> I did just look up on your wiki page right now to see how popular they were, so I can't answer that now.
23:32:35 <cpressey> scarf: Er - the one with the arithmetical operators. I don't remember its name :/
23:32:48 <alise> I would have guessed Eodermdrome and Thutu, I think, given a bit of time.
23:32:55 <alise> Forte I didn't quite realise was yours.
23:33:11 <scarf> the main idea was blatantly stolen from CLC-INTERCAL
23:33:14 <scarf> who else's could it be?
23:33:23 <alise> i just didn't make the link
23:33:37 <scarf> Vonlebio: I didn't invent C-INTERCAL
23:33:52 <scarf> nor any other dialect of INTERCAL, fwiw
23:33:55 <scarf> implementing != inventing
23:34:09 <scarf> and I didn't even start the compiler
23:34:42 <Vonlebio> And the link to ESR rather spoils any CVing.
23:34:59 <cpressey> scarf: Also I remembered *of* Black and Eodermdrome, but didn't remember they were yours.
23:35:14 <scarf> people are remembering Black over BackFlip?
23:35:20 <scarf> that is interesting
23:35:23 <cpressey> (If "remember of" is acceptable English. I think it's allowy.)
23:36:22 <alise> scarf: in news more sundry, botte appears to be materialising onto my hard disk
23:36:32 <scarf> botte the IRC bot?
23:36:52 <Vonlebio> alise, what languages will it support?
23:37:10 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
23:37:29 <alise> (as well as storage of past logs, web interface to such)
23:37:32 <alise> Vonlebio: all of 'em.
23:37:35 <scarf> ##nomic could do with one
23:37:50 <alise> scarf: yeah, but i'm still sufficiently pissed off at wooble that i won't go into ##nomic.
23:38:01 <scarf> (are you still following Agora, btw? all I see is a few attempts to become active followed by a long space of nothing)
23:38:13 <alise> i keep meaning to, but the unit sort of gets in the way
23:38:29 <alise> even when it's only three days a week
23:38:44 <scarf> any idea how I can send plaintext emails to the lists, given that my laptop's power supply caught fire?
23:39:00 <alise> you use that outlook web monstrosity thing, right?
23:39:11 <alise> Vonlebio: well, no.
23:39:13 <scarf> not any more, I use Yahoo! Mail
23:39:22 <scarf> because it's the one I distrust the least out of the three main ones
23:39:42 <scarf> the outlook web access account is now redirected; I think theoretically, every time I send through it I'm faking headers
23:39:51 <scarf> but the SMTP server doesn't seem to mind
23:39:52 <alise> I sort of just let Google handle my emails because in an ideal world I'd run my own server, and in a less than ideal world I don't have much that is life-destroying in them.
23:40:09 <alise> Or, really, anything that is life-destroying.
23:40:16 <alise> scarf: ok, can you install software on your current machine?
23:40:22 <scarf> I don't have a current machine
23:40:24 <scarf> this is a borrowed one
23:40:31 <scarf> so "in theory but people would yell at me"
23:40:36 <alise> scarf: do you have the ability to SSH?
23:40:44 <scarf> I doubt it, this is Windows
23:40:52 <alise> scarf: well, you do have telnet
23:40:55 <scarf> hmm, evil idea: I think this has telnet
23:41:03 <alise> scarf: telnet to some shell account server
23:41:07 <alise> (shouldn't be too hard to get an account)
23:41:15 <scarf> nah, I thought of a much simpler plan
23:41:17 <scarf> telnet to agoranomic.org
23:41:20 <scarf> type the email by hand
23:41:28 <scarf> I've done it before, in order to fake headers
23:41:55 <scarf> and really, it's the way email is MEANT to be sent
23:41:59 <alise> scarf: google.com/search?q=online+mail+sender
23:42:22 <scarf> if those let you fake from addresses, I'd expect them to be spam-blacklisted
23:42:33 <scarf> if they don't, then agoranomic.org will reject them for being unknown
23:43:31 <cpressey> alise: Is botte written in twisted?
23:43:33 <alise> scarf: how do you intend to send from yahoo mail when telnetting from some random ip, then?
23:43:38 <alise> cpressey: no; twisted gives me the heebie jeebies
23:43:44 <scarf> I was just planning to fake the from address
23:43:47 <alise> cpressey: probably i'll use asynchat etc. from standard python
23:43:53 <alise> cpressey: also, twisted Does Too Much For Me :-)
23:43:56 <scarf> agoranomic.org doesn't care, I know that from experiment
23:43:58 <cpressey> alise: we're beginning to use it here (at work...)
23:44:08 <scarf> presumably, if I put comex's address on there or something, everyone would yell at me
23:44:12 <alise> twisted is a good idea, just not properly done My Way
23:44:27 <alise> also, it's not pythonic
23:44:30 <cpressey> I was hoping it was more minimalistic than it apparently is
23:44:31 <alise> it uses zope.interface
23:44:50 <scarf> true python is full of lambdas and colons
23:46:25 <alise> Actually I think instead of Bot subclass-of IRCBot (or whatever) I'll end up having
23:46:37 <alise> Bot has-a IRCClient
23:46:59 <scarf> Bot subclass-of IRCBot sounds backwards
23:47:06 <alise> scarf: i just don't want to call it botte
23:47:11 <alise> since classes will be doing "self.bot = one of these"
23:47:16 <alise> self.botte = ... just looks weird
23:47:22 <alise> scarf: fine, Bot subclass-of IRCClient
23:47:26 <scarf> assuming you're using standard not-real-OO-the-other-one terminology
23:47:33 <scarf> (where real-OO = Smalltalk)
23:47:42 <alise> but I think having the IRCClient as a component of the bot is better
23:49:48 <cpressey> Well, the bot could naturally have many clients that connect to many things in the outside world. So, yeah.
23:50:13 <alise> the bot won't handle if you tell it it's "botte" but it has to connect as botte_.
23:50:19 <alise> my policy, register your damn bot nicks.
23:50:41 <scarf> what about ghosts?
23:50:47 <scarf> the bot should probably be able to handle two alts
23:50:56 <scarf> just to be able to /ns ghost itself
23:50:56 <alise> scarf: no (it could theoretically handle N alts)
23:51:02 <alise> i think i might add ghost support
23:51:05 <alise> inside IRCClient itself
23:51:15 <alise> but that'll just be part of the internal connection code
23:51:28 <alise> once it's actually responding to stuff, it will pretend it's called botte, even if it's not.
23:52:48 <alise> Now I just need #freenode to get off their asses and give botte a new password; one I actually know.
23:53:33 <alise> <niko> and why do you need a reset password for this account ?
23:54:01 <scarf> alise: did you set its email?
23:54:10 <alise> i hope so, let's put it that way.
23:54:12 <scarf> if you didn't, might be hard to prove you actually own the account
23:54:15 <alise> -NickServ- Registered : Dec 28 14:08:13 2009 (33 weeks, 4 days, 06:23:42 ago)
23:54:18 <alise> i can just get it dropped, can't i?
23:54:22 <alise> even if it wasn't mine
23:54:22 <scarf> yep, that's probably easier
23:54:26 <alise> -NickServ- Last seen : Dec 30 04:17:27 2009 (33 weeks, 2 days, 16:14:28 ago)
23:56:09 <alise> scarf: hah, i think it's registered to @eso-std.org
23:56:16 <alise> they've just sent an email and i haven't got it
23:56:18 <alise> now i've asked for dropping
23:56:22 <alise> my case must look real good right now
23:56:52 <alise> <niko> alise: all i can say, you don't own the domain
23:57:40 <cpressey> Er, well no one does? whois eso-std.org -> NOT FOUND
23:59:06 -!- alise has changed nick to botte.
00:00:38 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
00:01:33 <scarf> botte: you convinced them in the end?
00:01:53 <botte> scarf: well, he didn't argue after i said that "dropping doesn't require ownership, right?" (along those lines)
00:01:59 <botte> probably there was typing lag
00:02:03 <botte> i.e. he hadn't read my request to drop when typing that
00:02:54 <botte> scarf: aargh, freenode doesn't allow + in emails
00:03:15 <scarf> gmail, you can put dots anywhere you like in the address
00:03:16 <botte> scarf: that only lets me punctuate with ., not add more text
00:03:17 <scarf> and it ignores them
00:03:27 <scarf> but it's good enough for address uniqueness
00:03:36 <botte> it appears to maybe allow +
00:03:38 <scarf> (bonus points if you come up with an address that punctuates both ways round)
00:03:40 <botte> perhaps it doesn't like my sha1 password
00:03:50 <scarf> use the first half, it's almost as secure
00:05:12 <scarf> oh, the "any password should be allowed" theory?
00:05:36 <botte> it's not like it isn't being hashed (i bloody hope it is)
00:05:36 * scarf vaguely wonders how secure a 1-char password would be if it wasn't ASCII
00:05:47 <scarf> botte: it may be on the /input/ side that's the problem
00:05:57 <scarf> auto-ID might not work properly in many clients if the password was too long
00:06:21 <Ilari> Two IPv4 IANA pool exhaustion estimates: April 8th next year and May 28th next year... Going to get busy with IPv6 migration...
00:06:25 <scarf> I'd certainly expect passwords with spaces in to be rejected in IRC due to screwing up argument parsing
00:06:41 <scarf> Ilari: nah, nobody will migrate anyway
00:06:50 <scarf> they'll just NAT entire countries or something stupid like that
00:06:56 <botte> i was about to say, yeah, nat
00:07:20 <scarf> (apparently, the entire population of some country shares one IP due to a NAT+filter; IIRC, Qatar, but it might be a different one)
00:07:32 <scarf> (it caused a huge row when Wikipedia blocked the IP for vandalism, not realising its significance)
00:07:38 <scarf> (and it was undone as soon as somebody noticed)
00:07:56 <botte> Qatar; the defier of usual English spelling, owner (well, royal family) of Harrods, and hater of IPs
00:08:49 <scarf> the ISPs will love mass-NATting, as it'll give them an excuse to make people pay extra to run a server from home
00:08:58 <botte> a lot of them even forbid that.
00:09:20 <botte> Meanwhile, http://www.bogons.net/ is still bullshit-free (and I still haven't got around to registering yet).
00:09:32 * scarf wonders when people will finally realise they've chained too many levels of NAT and it doesn't work any more
00:09:38 <botte> (static IP, IPv6, only intelligent people, etc.)
00:09:49 <pikhq> scarf: s/will// s/'ll// s/give/gives/
00:10:08 <botte> a bit on the pricy side though
00:10:13 <botte> (very on the pricy side)
00:10:15 <botte> moreso than last time
00:10:23 <pikhq> Some ISPs are already in the habbit of doing mass-NAT.
00:11:31 <scarf> which was especially strange as each account had its own IP anyway
00:11:34 <botte> i don't think anyone actually uses aol any more :P
00:11:41 <scarf> (you can tell they did due to the XFF headers)
00:11:59 <scarf> alise: do you have an opinion on Oracle vs. Google, btw?
00:11:59 <botte> wow, Time Warner split up with AOL
00:12:11 <botte> scarf: only that it's inane and oracle suck
00:12:21 <botte> (I don't actually know much about the suit, just that oracle are pretty much universally inane and idiotic)
00:12:27 <scarf> also, netscape.com still exists
00:12:37 <scarf> although nowadays it's AOL.com + netscape branding
00:12:37 <botte> that doesn't surprise me.
00:13:32 <scarf> I've been looking at the lawsuit
00:14:05 <scarf> and it's hard to see what Google are supposed to have done wrong here, other than patent infringement against dubious patents
00:14:26 <botte> all technology patents are dubious
00:14:28 <botte> even by the standard of patents
00:14:30 <botte> technology = software
00:14:40 <botte> software patents specifically
00:14:46 <botte> but, you know, computer patents that aren't to do with chips
00:15:55 -!- augur has joined.
00:16:12 <Vonlebio> botte, are you becoming Thribb?
00:16:16 <scarf> the only potentially legitimate claim, other than software infringements, I think Oracle have is trademark infringement
00:16:19 <scarf> but they didn't file that one
00:16:33 <botte> Vonlebio: verily, I
00:16:38 <scarf> (I think they might legitimately be able to get an injunction against Google advertising materials claiming that Android is based on Java)
00:16:49 <botte> that i didn't knowit.
00:17:48 <botte> I defy all conventions of poetry and hereby sign my suicide note. -J
00:19:16 <botte> scarf: ugh, it /was/ a password length limit
00:19:17 <scarf> that is indeed, in a sense, poetry
00:19:30 <botte> Blank verse is easier than rhyming
00:19:33 <Vonlebio> Oh, look, the Agda people have an article on Agda vs Coq.
00:19:33 <botte> For there's no need to worry of timing.
00:19:37 <botte> The problem, you see, with blank verse, to me,
00:19:43 <Vonlebio> Their first argument is that Agda has nicer syntax.
00:19:44 <botte> is that it's just an excuse for people to write prose and call it poetry.
00:19:52 <botte> Vonlebio: They're wrong.
00:19:58 <botte> I mean, sure, nicer to look at (unless you read the stdlib -- hideous)
00:20:02 <botte> not nicer to write.
00:20:20 <scarf> non-exhaustive list of words "poetry" is not an angram of: pottery, topiary, temporary, zoetrope
00:20:38 <Vonlebio> Then something to do with writing programs in Emacs.
00:20:54 <Vonlebio> They admit that they have no tactic system, though.
00:21:29 <botte> Addendum to the non-exhaustive lists of words "poetry" is not an anagram of: pig, ontological, metaphorically, understoodingness
00:22:09 <Vonlebio> Oh, and they say that Agda is easier to learn.
00:22:15 <scarf> at least "metaphorically" contains all the letters "poetry" does
00:22:28 <botte> it just looks superficially similar to haskell
00:22:57 <scarf> hmm, "origasm" looks so much like it's a word
00:23:05 <Vonlebio> Perhaps you would just like to dismiss them all at once.
00:23:06 <Vonlebio> http://wiki.portal.chalmers.se/agda/pmwiki.php?n=Main.AgdaVsCoq
00:23:20 <botte> Urban Dictionary: origasm
00:23:20 <botte> the sexual pleasure that one gets from either making or admiring origami.
00:23:20 <botte> www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=origasm - Cached - Similar
00:23:22 <scarf> it's a wiki? just edit them to be correct
00:23:23 <botte> That .. was what I had predicted.
00:23:34 <botte> Vonlebio: They're wrong and Agda users smell funny.
00:24:21 -!- zeotrope has joined.
00:24:22 <botte> coq's syntax is better than agda for people who actually use it. interactive development is possible with Proof General; much nicer than Agda's mode. Proving things in Agda is almost impossible; it is not developed for that at all, while Coq is built around it. ProofGeneral makes it even nicer.
00:24:27 <scarf> I haven't used either
00:24:30 <botte> Coq can be predicative or impredicative; by default predicative.
00:24:40 <botte> Coq does support mutual definitions; perhaps not in the way the wiki means.
00:24:43 <Vonlebio> Agda might just maybe be good for pointless mucking about with dependent types.
00:24:52 <scarf> zeotrope: how can you join after I said "zoetrope" not more than 5 minutes earlier?
00:24:55 <botte> Coq's pattern matching is a hassle because it does proper dependent pattern matching; Agda does not.
00:25:04 <botte> Set Implicit Arguments is nicer.
00:25:14 <botte> Safety belts, aka "easy ways to get an inconsistent system".
00:25:25 <botte> Non-fixed system, aka "we're totally awesome and unstable"!
00:25:33 <botte> Less is more: because dependent proving is hard.
00:25:38 <botte> (It really is. So you need more.)
00:25:52 <botte> Learning curve: yes, you can write trivial haskell-style programs with extra dependent types in Agda quickly. but you can't get anything useful done.
00:26:00 <botte> Vonlebio: There you go; done.
00:26:11 <botte> Agda is interesting as a research project; nothing more.
00:26:26 <scarf> botte: what about proving via causing programs to type correctly in Haskell / some other language with type inference?
00:26:56 <scarf> ugh, I just realised that at some point in the next few years, someone will prove a trivial theorem about lambda calculus by getting a C# program to compile
00:27:00 <botte> scarf: that's how proofs work in every dependently typed language. except you don't use inference much
00:27:05 <scarf> and claim this as some sort of achievement
00:27:20 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
00:27:36 <scarf> botte: saves time over writing the whole proof out by hand
00:27:51 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:28:20 <botte> my favourite tactics in Coq are "auto with arith", "trivial" and "omega"
00:28:26 <botte> type one in, press ., hope for the best
00:29:06 <Vonlebio> scarf, why did you realise that?
00:29:40 <scarf> scarf: because the people who do that sort of thing keep turning up at my department and giving seminars
00:29:55 <botte> what a strange tabcompleteo
00:30:02 * scarf wonders what sort of confusion is needed to successfully nickping /yourself/
00:30:07 <botte> (completo: like a typo, but for tab complete)
00:30:13 <botte> Vorpal: I realised that because...
00:30:24 <scarf> Vonlebio: yes, srsly
00:30:52 <scarf> it's mostly people from Microsoft Research
00:31:05 <scarf> who use C# and F#, and do something that either seems trivially easy, or makes no sense
00:31:23 <Vonlebio> Saying "we have invented a calculus that uses only anonymous functions, often called lambdas."
00:31:31 <scarf> I got thrown out of a seminar once for laughing too much at a statement that seemed to me to be the opposite of reality
00:31:36 <scarf> Vonlebio: not quite that basic
00:31:42 <botte> "Hahaha. HAHAHA! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!"
00:31:50 <botte> "What?" "You're stupid."
00:31:51 <scarf> Vonlebio: I can't remember the basis
00:31:59 <botte> "I..." "I KNOW STEPHEN WOLFRAM. PERSONALLY."
00:32:27 <scarf> hmm, do you know System-C?
00:32:28 <Vonlebio> I AM THE LOVE CHILD OF ALONZO CHURCH JR AND HASKELL CURRY'S DAUGHTER!
00:32:44 <Vonlebio> Fun fact: they supposedly dated.
00:32:51 <scarf> imagine you've invented a language
00:33:01 <Vonlebio> scarf, is it a typed lambda calculus, like System F?
00:33:02 <botte> Vonlebio: i refuse to believe
00:33:03 <botte> but i want to believe
00:33:12 <scarf> but instead of writing a parser, you instead ask people to build a parse tree at runtime in some other language
00:33:16 <scarf> Vonlebio: no, completely different
00:33:30 <coppro> he's gone from 7 to 27
00:33:44 <scarf> so, instead of having a language where you write a:=b+c
00:33:59 * Vorpal is now known as cravat
00:34:02 <scarf> you write, say, variable(a)->assign(variable(b)->add(variable(c)))
00:34:18 <scarf> and all does is builds a parsetree for later execusion
00:34:22 <Vonlebio> botte, http://importantshock.wordpress.com/2007/08/21/haskell-curry-yes-i-dated-his-daughter/
00:34:50 <botte> scarf: screw it, I'm supporting arbitrary nicks
00:35:02 <botte> http://pastie.org/1105138.txt?key=nsqexkxchx4ofd14wv3v4g
00:35:13 <scarf> you then claim that this a) makes the syntax more familiar, and b) means the language you're creating, and the language you're writing in, are now compatible in some sense
00:35:20 <botte> pastie.org/1105138.txt?key=nsqexkxchx4ofd14wv3v4g
00:35:26 <scarf> System-C is a VHDL-alike using C++ as the host lang
00:35:30 <Vonlebio> So, noöne talking at the moment uses the nick they used a month ago.
00:35:33 <botte> warning: Incredibly gnarly Python code! Only click if you're in to that sort of thing!
00:35:38 <botte> Vonlebio: this is just to register it
00:35:41 <scarf> the person in the seminar was doing something similar with CUDA and C#
00:35:43 <Vonlebio> scarf, oh, I think I heard of that.
00:35:44 -!- botte has changed nick to alise.
00:35:45 <pikhq> scarf: So, Pain + Agony.
00:35:53 <alise> <scarf> System-C is a VHDL-alike using C++ as the host lang
00:35:55 <scarf> and I remembered the comment I was laughing at
00:36:03 <scarf> well, maybe not the /worst/, but pretty bad
00:36:18 <scarf> it was something about this mechanism making the language more scalable
00:36:38 <scarf> which struck me as a slightly bold statement, given that all the loops used were inherently unrolled
00:36:53 <scarf> (as they were using a normal C# loop around the parsetree-builder_
00:36:55 <Vorpal> <scarf> System-C is a VHDL-alike using C++ as the host lang <-- I thought it was closed to Verilog than VHDL?
00:37:13 <alise> Vorpal: same thing
00:37:27 <scarf> Vorpal: VHDL and Verilog are identical apart from the syntax, for all practical purposes
00:37:42 <scarf> thus, "VHDL with different syntax" and "Verilog with different syntax" are basically the same concept
00:38:12 <Vorpal> scarf, I thought verilog lacked assignments outside processes or something like that?
00:38:20 <Vorpal> of course in practise you would get the same code...
00:38:25 <Vonlebio> Vorpal, hardly a big difference.
00:38:30 <scarf> the concept doesn't actually make sense
00:38:44 <Vorpal> scarf, no? You can write sig_out <= a or b; iir c?
00:38:45 <scarf> (you can <= outside processes in VHDL, but that's just sugar, effectively)
00:38:52 <Vorpal> scarf, yes that is what I meant
00:38:53 -!- sshc_ has joined.
00:39:06 -!- Vonlebio has quit (Quit: Read the SHOCKING TRUTH about Church Jr. and Ms Curry in my new book!).
00:39:16 <scarf> s <= a or b; is sugar for begin process (a, b) s <= a or b end process
00:39:29 <scarf> (+ filling in the bits of syntax I missed out because nobody can be expected to /remember/ VHDL syntax)
00:39:38 <scarf> time to go home, anyway
00:39:43 -!- scarf has quit (Quit: Page closed).
00:42:16 -!- sshc has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
00:42:34 <alise> what's the name for a raw line of IRC text?
00:42:39 <alise> including all the syntax
00:45:56 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:48:15 <Sgeo> Congratulations alise, my current obsession is NetHack
00:48:31 <alise> at least it's a good one
01:01:27 -!- Flonk has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.8/20100722155716]).
01:02:55 <Sgeo> alise, if something wasn't good, would I be obsessed?
01:07:38 <Sgeo> alise, are you still interested in NetHack?
01:07:43 <Sgeo> Or have you moved on?
01:10:40 <alise> Sgeo: I'm interested but taking a break.
01:29:24 <alise> Apparently the prefix of an IRC message is optional.
01:35:52 <pikhq> ... There exists opposition to water flouridation?
01:36:31 <pikhq> What's next, opposition to cleanliness in hospitals?
01:38:44 <pikhq> Seriously, why the hell doesn't Europe do water flouridation?
01:38:49 <Sgeo> I oppose the use of running water!
01:39:03 <pikhq> Sgeo: That's great. I'll be sure to shit upstream of you.
01:39:14 <alise> doesn't flouride worsen the taste?
01:39:20 <pikhq> alise: No, it's flavorless.
01:39:43 <alise> http://www.aquaverve.com/blog/content/binary/fluoride_water_main_600[1].jpg ;; lol wat
01:39:43 <coppro> yeah, fluoridation is pretty much awesome
01:39:43 <pikhq> Also, sl/flourid/fluorid/g
01:39:48 <pikhq> s/flourid/fluorid/g
01:39:56 <alise> i approve of adding flour to the water supply
01:40:19 <alise> pikhq: I dunno, fluoride is a Good Thing but I'm not sure I like the idea of an impure water supply.
01:40:25 <alise> We do it here in the UK, I'm pretty sure.
01:40:40 <pikhq> alise: Only 10% of the population of the UK has fluoridated water.
01:40:59 <coppro> fluoridation in water supply is typically only a few ppm
01:41:00 <alise> I know that the water supply in the UK, taste-wise, varies from acceptable to yucky
01:41:08 <alise> coppro: oh, I know that, it's just the principle of the thing
01:41:18 <alise> I'd only object to fluoride as part of a wider "pure tap water" position
01:41:26 <pikhq> Only a few countries actually do water fluoridisation commonly.
01:41:29 <alise> & i know that fluoride is a Very Good Thing for teeth
01:41:40 <coppro> typically less than an order of magnitude more concentrated than ocean water
01:41:51 <pikhq> (US, Canada, Ireland, Australia... Also, France does *salt* fluoridisation.)
01:42:06 <coppro> at those levels, it's actually almost irrelevent except for the teeth of the young
01:42:16 <alise> i use a fluoridic (word?) toothpaste anyway
01:42:36 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5d/Unholy_three_cropped.png
01:42:39 <coppro> as do I, plus I get a topical fluoride treatment twice a year
01:42:41 <pikhq> coppro: Which is itself fairly beneficial.
01:42:45 <alise> FLUORIDATED WATER, POLIO MONKEY SERUMS, MENTAL HYGIENE ETC.
01:42:57 <alise> <coppro> as do I, plus I get a topical fluoride treatment twice a year ;; why?
01:43:04 <alise> that seems excessive.
01:43:28 <pikhq> alise: It's a fairly routine thing; you're probably just not aware that there's topical fluoride being done.
01:43:49 <alise> what, you mean it's done in my sleep? :)
01:44:09 <pikhq> No... It's just not pointed out that it's topical application of fluoride.
01:44:26 <alise> you mean as part of a regular dentist's appointment?
01:44:58 <alise> at least in my experience, over here that consists of them poking at your teeth with some metal and then saying "Okay, they're fine. Now go away, I want to give some poor, poor child the pain of DRILLS."
01:45:10 <alise> perhaps i just have teeth that make dentists unusually satisfied
01:45:49 <coppro> alise: you must not see a hygenist then
01:46:02 <Sgeo> alise, someone in #nethack wants your help
01:46:20 <coppro> here, anyways, hygenists typically work with dentists and you get the appointments one right after the other
01:46:28 <coppro> though if you have special concerns you can see either separately
01:46:35 <Sgeo> <Zarakava> any way to pacify watchmen in minetown?
01:46:35 <Sgeo> <Zarakava> I had to kick open the exit door...
01:46:41 <alise> coppro: I'm not sure that's actually common in the UK.
01:46:42 <coppro> I had a hygenist appointment yesterday because I'd had my braces off recently
01:48:41 <alise> I have a tooth that didn't go into place *awesome*
01:48:57 <alise> I should, uh, probably get one of the teeth next to it removed so it can do its dropping thang.
01:49:02 <alise> But it's been like this for, what, years now.
01:49:23 <coppro> see a dentist/orthodondist
01:49:42 <Sgeo> I should probably do that
01:49:46 <Sgeo> My teeth are all weird
01:49:47 <alise> I recall doing so when it first refused to drop and they said "get one of the teeth next to it removed for aesthetic reasons".
01:49:58 <alise> but they said there wasn't any actual badness about it apart from the look
01:49:59 <coppro> does the NHS cover either?
01:50:38 <alise> i'm not actually sure, I forget the situation wrt dentistry in the uk
01:50:47 <alise> but there's no cost issue or anything
01:51:33 <alise> coppro: do you know much about the irc spec?
01:53:22 <alise> coppro: will a server ever send a PRIVMSG?
01:53:25 <coppro> alise: also, according to wikipedia, the treatment (called a fluoride varnish) isn't used in a lot of countries; just really some European ones and Canada
01:53:29 <coppro> alise: I don't believe so
01:53:56 <alise> python exceptions can be irritating
01:54:07 <alise> like I don't want to create a YouCantPRIVMSGAServer exception, that's ridiculous
01:54:09 <pikhq> coppro: Clearly, we should implement a world fluoride policy.
01:54:13 <alise> but "IRCError" or something is ludicrously vague
01:54:32 <coppro> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fb/FluorideTrays07-05-05.jpg/800px-FluorideTrays07-05-05.jpg
01:58:05 <Sgeo> I like Vala's system
01:58:15 <Sgeo> for exceptions
01:58:27 <alise> coppro: Gah, I use both "origin" and "sender" to mean the same thing here. :-D
01:58:45 <Sgeo> Would probably be something like IRCError.YOU_CANT_PRIVMSG_A_SERVER
01:59:07 <Sgeo> I might have a mistaken impression of Vala exceptions
01:59:26 <alise> exception @[Can't PRIVMSG a server]
01:59:32 <alise> later: raise @[Can't PRIVMSG a server]
01:59:52 <alise> exception @[division by zero]
01:59:52 <coppro> I like the system of exceptions whereby you realise that things like trying to privmsg a server shouldn't be exceptions
01:59:54 <alise> in the division code
01:59:58 <alise> raise @[division by zero]
02:00:01 <alise> coppro: Then what should it be?
02:00:37 <Sgeo> an assertion that means there's a bug in the code?
02:00:48 <Sgeo> Vala does things that way, actually)
02:01:09 <alise> "oops you did something retarded lol" is a type of exception
02:01:12 <coppro> imo, an exception should be two things a) exceptional b) not capable of being handled at the error site
02:01:27 <alise> assertions are just exceptions with bad error messages
02:01:40 <Sgeo> alise, not in Vala
02:03:34 <alise> coppro: tell me off for mixing origin and sender
02:03:39 <alise> that is, "origin" and "sender"
02:04:19 <alise> coppro: but ctx.sender is much nicer for users of the code, yet in the parser code it's more correct to refer to it as the origin
02:05:56 * Sgeo considers trying DCSS
02:06:06 <alise> Sgeo: the map moves to keep you in the centre
02:06:08 <alise> gives me a headache
02:09:50 <alise> coppro: Got a better idea?
02:11:04 <Sgeo> alise, coppro left
02:11:33 <Sgeo> You should become a regular in ##nomic
02:12:03 <Sgeo> I'm thinking of holding office again
02:12:26 <alise> I'm not going to frequent a channel run by an asshole who hates my guts and who abused the inattentiveness of the incredibly-absentee channel founder to steal my op privileges.
02:13:07 <Sgeo> Is that asshole even active anymore?
02:13:16 * Sgeo can't believe he just said "asshole"
02:17:40 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0W7Jbc_Vhw
02:17:53 <Sgeo> alise, waitwhat?
02:18:26 <alise> Sgeo: Waitwhat how?
02:18:37 <Sgeo> How is Wooble an asshole?
02:18:50 <alise> Umm, he's a complete and utter jerk who makes regular slights at comex and me?
02:18:59 <alise> And votes against proposals for their author? And ...
02:19:06 <alise> He's an asshole because he's an asshole.
02:19:10 <alise> And also because of what he did wrt ##nomic.
02:19:38 -!- alise has changed nick to botte.
02:21:43 <botte> -NickServ- Metadata : ^ = ^
02:21:49 <botte> /msg nickserv set property foo bar
02:21:51 -!- botte has changed nick to alise.
02:26:02 <Sgeo> So I should feel a bit weird about him helping me massively wrt NetHack?
02:31:18 <Sgeo> Ok, wtf is going on with flappy?
02:36:38 <alise> botte's infrastructure progresses
02:37:26 <Sgeo> What language?
02:37:45 * pikhq can has a decent FLAC to M4A conversion script. Whoo.
02:37:48 <alise> python, it's sufficiently boring
02:38:34 <alise> pikhq: *to AAC/MPEG-4 Part 14
02:38:44 <alise> pikhq: .m4a is an Apple invention for "MPEG-4 Part 14 that's just audio".
02:38:57 <pikhq> alise: Yeah, yeah...
02:39:06 <alise> pikhq: I suggest .aac, if .mp4 is too vague for you :P
02:39:23 <alise> Meanwhile, http://i.imgur.com/v9M60.jpg
02:39:26 <pikhq> alise: .aac convinces certain tools that what's inside is a raw AAC bitstream.
02:43:43 -!- sshc_ has changed nick to sshc.
03:22:06 -!- comex has joined.
03:32:03 -!- zzo38 has joined.
03:32:08 <zzo38> Why am I out of permission?
03:32:12 <zzo38> Are you upgrading something?
03:33:59 <zzo38> Or did I put in some word in my file which is censored?
03:34:57 <zzo38> Yes, just one example is forbidden, for some reason. I will have to rewrite it
03:35:01 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
03:37:19 <Sgeo> alise, be prepared to have an aneurseum
03:37:29 <Sgeo> You know what I _think_ may have introduced me to NetHack?
03:37:39 <zzo38> I think "<DIV" is forbidden.
03:40:07 <zzo38> Maybe you should make it that any forbidden words are not forbidden for autoconfirmed users.
03:40:43 <alise> zzo38: spambots can wait until registration completes before attacking
03:40:46 <alise> anyway, it's not in my power
03:40:54 <Sgeo> alise, User Friendly
03:47:02 <zzo38> Ha ha I inserted a <DIV> tag anyways!
03:47:26 <zzo38> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/User:Zzo38
03:47:33 <zzo38> (See near the bottom, the blue part)
03:50:17 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
03:50:26 <Sgeo> Wait, you actually used my BF-equivalent for one of your languages?
03:50:55 <zzo38> Sgeo: Please elaborate on what you mean?
03:51:04 <Sgeo> GrainFimple uses BF-RLE
03:51:47 <zzo38> Now can you see that the spam filter doesn't prevent anyone from inserting a <DIV> tag anyways?
03:52:25 <Sgeo> <DIV 02:45, 21 August 2010 (UTC) style="background-color:blue;color:white">
03:52:29 <Sgeo> Seems a bit broken up
03:52:40 <Sgeo> Although I guess that may be deliberate
03:53:03 <zzo38> Yes, but if you view the generated HTML code, it doesn't contain the date.
03:53:06 -!- nooga has joined.
03:53:17 <nooga> alise: go to sleep
03:55:29 * Sgeo zaps alise with a /oSleep
04:04:23 -!- augur has joined.
04:11:12 <augur> no, dont answer that
04:15:06 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
04:18:16 <Sgeo> because having a weird sleep cycle can be a living hell sometimes
04:22:06 <alise> birthday on sunday, fwiw.
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04:46:48 <Sgeo> alise, soon it's going to be very dangerous to go to Minetown
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07:10:11 <oerjan> !haskell foldl1 (\x -> x + 2*y) [1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1]
07:11:38 <oerjan> !haskell main = print $ foldl1 (\x -> 2*x + y) [1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1]
07:12:01 <oerjan> !haskell main = print $ foldl1 (\x y -> 2*x + y) [1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1]
07:12:27 <oerjan> !haskell main = print $ foldl1 (\x y -> 2*x + y) [1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1]
07:12:47 <oerjan> !haskell main = print $ foldl1 (\x y -> 5*x + y) [1,1,1,1]
07:13:04 <oerjan> !haskell main = print $ foldl1 (\x y -> 3*x + y) [1,1,1,1,1]
07:18:59 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
07:19:09 <oerjan> !bf >+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+<[>[-<++>]<<]>#
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08:13:37 <Gregor> "My first six months at university I programmed on punchcards." "My entire university career was post-2000." "Whoah, is that true? Damn you young people." ; I didn't have the heart to tell him that all but four months of my high school career was also post-2000 :P
08:15:08 <Sgeo> Some people's entire lives are post-2000
08:17:36 <Gregor> Yes, namely people who are 10 years and 8 months old or younger.
08:17:47 <Gregor> Most such people are not currently PhD students though :P
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10:07:16 <Vorpal> <Gregor> Most such people are not currently PhD students though :P <-- XD
10:08:29 <Gregor> I'm sure it's not "all"
10:08:44 <Vorpal> Gregor, really? Citation needed then.
10:12:13 <Gregor> You always hear these stories about 7-yr-olds in college, who then go on to do nothing because their childhood has been completely ruined and they can't live up to the unrealistic and mostly nonsense expectations of them.
10:12:14 <Sgeo> My parents didn't want me skipping a grade due to social concerns :(
10:12:20 <Sgeo> I don't think skipping 1 grade is as severe as that
10:15:48 <Vorpal> it is nice to have radvd working with sixxs finally, that way every computer on my lan has ipv6 (and *yes* I have a firewall of course on the tunnel endpoint, as well as on every computer)
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15:06:22 * Phantom_Hoover loves the way Haskell's tuples are defined manuallyesque.
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15:17:12 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, that looks like it would break if you exceed the number of elements there
15:17:27 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what a horrible back
15:17:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Tuples are only defined to a finite number of elements.
15:17:54 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, but surely you can have more elements than (a, b, c, d, e, f, g, h, i, j, k, l, m, n, o) in a tuple?
15:17:57 <Vorpal> sure it must be finite
15:18:04 <Vorpal> but it can be finite of any size you want
15:18:37 <oerjan> i vaguely recall the report says only tuples up to 15 elements are guaranteed to exist
15:19:17 <oerjan> and for actual class instances and supporting functions, even less.
15:19:20 <Phantom_Hoover> (,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,) seems to be as far as GHC goes.
15:19:47 <oerjan> !haskell length "(,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,)"
15:19:48 <Vorpal> True, True, True, True, True, True, True, True, True, False, True, True, True, True, True, False) does give me an error about lack of Show instance in ghci (as expected) but apart from that it seems to work
15:20:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Frankly, if you need more than 61 elements in a tuple, you're doing something wrong.
15:20:25 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well yeah
15:20:28 <oerjan> !haskell (True, True, True, True, True, True, True, True, True, False, True, True, True, True, True)
15:20:29 <EgoBot> (True,True,True,True,True,True,True,True,True,False,True,True,True,True,True)
15:20:46 <oerjan> hm maybe instances are up to 15 then.
15:20:51 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, still it seems like a pointlessly arbitrary limit
15:21:16 <oerjan> Vorpal: i don't think it's _forbidden_ for implementations to support more
15:21:20 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well, limiting it by memory would be less arbitrary
15:21:32 <Vorpal> oerjan, yeah pointlessly arbitrary limit
15:21:51 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm. How so?
15:22:00 <oerjan> Vorpal: oh i think it may be a limit for _all_ algebraic datatypes, possibly
15:23:33 <EgoBot> data (,,,) a b c d = (,,,) a b c d -- Defined in Data.Tuple
15:23:51 <oerjan> Vorpal: as in, ghc may only leave that many bits for telling the GC how long a datatype is
15:24:06 <Vorpal> of course any specific tuple type must be finite in size. But I still don't see why you can't just make a larger finite tuple until you run out of memory
15:25:01 <oerjan> but then it _does_ have arrays...
15:25:42 <Vorpal> requires same data type for all elements though
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15:26:38 <Phantom_Hoover_> Vorpal, with algebraic data types you can have different types in an array.
15:26:41 <Vorpal> of course you could create some CharOrBoolOrWhatever type that "wraps" all the alternatives
15:27:12 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, eh? Are you not talking about [] lists or are you talking about some ghc extension to haskell?
15:27:19 <Vorpal> or did I miss out something huge
15:27:29 <oerjan> arrays are not [] lists
15:28:56 <oerjan> [] lists are linked lists, so any limit for size of a single constructor value does not apply.
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15:29:43 <oerjan> while Arrays would presumably be actually consecutive in memory
15:30:08 <Vorpal> hm you could construct a linked list type where the type varied cyclically
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15:30:42 <oerjan> any finite state automaton / regular expression could probably be used
15:31:02 <Vorpal> Sgeo, lucky for you ;P
15:32:03 <oerjan> also Arrays are Haskell 98 not an extension, i believe, although only immutable ones
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15:33:31 <oerjan> there's that whole Ix class for allowing flexible index types
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15:46:07 <Vorpal> oerjan, how are the arrays implemented? a binary tree is how I would do it. Unless it is implemented by special forms inside ghc itself
15:46:20 <Vorpal> in which case there are more efficient ways to do it
15:48:19 <Vorpal> (unless, of course, they are sparse arrays)
15:49:27 <oerjan> dammit the source links in the ghc library documentation are broken
15:49:37 <oerjan> so i cannot give you a precise answer :D
15:49:58 <Vorpal> oerjan, and you don't happen to remember?
15:50:17 <oerjan> well i'm pretty sure it's something based on consecutive values in memory
15:52:01 <Vorpal> oerjan, that would probably require special support from ghc
15:52:07 <Vorpal> as in, can't be pure haskell
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15:52:59 <oerjan> dammit the source link is broken on hackage too
15:54:01 <oerjan> i'm trying to find the type definition
15:54:45 <oerjan> Vorpal was asking how ghc implements such a type, since you cannot define that directly in haskell
15:55:17 <oerjan> i am guessing it's either something ghc-specific or a wrapped C array of some sort
15:55:44 <oerjan> (directly as consecutive values in memory, that is)
15:56:39 <alise> 07:21:32 <Vorpal> oerjan, yeah pointlessly arbitrary limit
15:56:40 <alise> 07:21:34 <Vorpal> as I said
15:56:47 <alise> supporting all of them would require an infinite amount of code
15:56:50 <alise> or special compiler support
15:57:04 <alise> so it's not "pointlessly arbitrary", it's just the only sane thing to do
15:57:35 <Sgeo> alise, do IBMgraphics work for you?
15:57:44 <alise> Sgeo: only if i convert the character set
15:58:06 <alise> the only reason to is to get the upper half integral fountains :) and iirc the rogue level is screwy with them
15:58:38 <Sgeo> The halls are kind of nice
15:58:45 <oerjan> http://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/6.12.2/html/libraries/base-4.2.0.1/src/GHC-Arr.html
15:58:48 <Sgeo> I like the DECgraphics doors better though, I think
15:58:51 <alise> Sgeo: install "konwert"
15:58:55 <alise> nethack | konwert cp437-utf8
15:59:07 <alise> the other solution doesn't work as far as i can tell
15:59:09 <Sgeo> Or, I could just have PuTTY set up to do cp437
15:59:28 <oerjan> Vorpal: it seems to wrap an Array# type, probably a ghc builtin?
15:59:33 <alise> oh, i forgot, you use an OS which actually supports that horrid character set.
15:59:42 <oerjan> the # types tend to be
16:00:10 <Sgeo> WHat I don't understand is, if NetHack was mostly designed with UNIXs in mind, why they used something that seems to be a Windows thing
16:00:23 <alise> for the DOS port, duh
16:00:28 <Sgeo> Or by "IBM" do they mean DOS/Windows.. ah
16:00:41 <alise> it's the IBM PC glyph set
16:00:48 <alise> from the original IBM PC
16:02:16 <alise> so julien assange has been accused of rape!
16:02:28 <alise> the cia are pretty good
16:05:58 <Sgeo> Is there any way to have Gmail show the current time?
16:06:04 <Sgeo> And also to have it use UTC
16:14:45 <alise> Sgeo: yes, look at the bottom-right corner of the screen
16:14:57 <alise> now you can read the time while using gmail
16:15:00 <Sgeo> My system clock is not in UTC
16:15:07 <alise> get another clock program
16:16:11 <alise> oh no running programs on my computer !!
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16:21:14 <alise> "The Wang LOCI-2 (an earlier LOCI-1 was not a real product) was introduced in 1965 and was probably the first desktop calculator capable of computing logarithms, quite an achievement for a machine without any integrated circuits.[1] The electronics included 1275 discrete transistors. It actually performed multiplication by adding logarithms, and roundoff in the display conversion was noticeable: 2 times 2 yielded 3.999999999."
16:23:33 <Sgeo> My math teacher lied to me!
16:23:46 <alise> Oh gosh how horrific, what did she say.
16:23:52 <Sgeo> She said 2+2=4
16:24:35 <oerjan> ...and Sgeo finally snaps completely.
16:24:45 <alise> Ha ha, it's funny because inaccurate results on calculators are totally unheard of, and also because you said +, not *, which breaks the joke.
16:25:03 * Sgeo failed to notice that you said times and not plus >.>
16:33:53 <oerjan> just blame it on the logarithms
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16:37:35 <alise> wait, how did it do that
16:37:48 <alise> which sounds a lot harder than multiplication to me
16:38:04 <alise> indeed even with log2 it'd have to do ^2 which is pretty clearly easiest implemented as a multiplication
16:38:48 <alise> er wait, e^ or 2^ ofc
16:47:05 <oerjan> "The secret to the LOCI was Dr. Wang's magical logarithm calculating circuit."
16:47:20 <oerjan> "Wang's calculator was really no more than an electronic adding machine with the key addition of the circuit that allowed logarithms and anti-logarithms to be calculated quickly and accurately."
16:47:36 <alise> lol anti-logarithms
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16:47:56 <alise> well, it might have only done base 10.
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16:51:58 <oerjan> "The operator's panel layout of the LOCI-2 is probably now used as a study in how not to design for human factors."
16:52:43 <alise> http://www.oldcalculatormuseum.com/wangloci.html
16:52:48 <alise> wow it's beautiful
16:52:56 <oerjan> that's what i'm looking at
16:53:10 <alise> no integrated circuits
16:55:01 <Sgeo> Maybe I should implement it in AW
17:00:19 <oerjan> "Of the nine circuit boards in the machine, only three have obvious functions. All of the rest of the boards seem to be a fairly random scattering of diode-resistor and transistor logic gate circuits and flip flops. Dr. Wang was quite protective of his designs, and rumor has it that efforts were purposely made to make it difficult to reverse-engineer the design of the machine."
17:00:26 <oerjan> good luck implementing that
17:00:37 <alise> emulate the circuits directly :)
17:01:50 <alise> oerjan: "Wang calculators cost in the mid-four-figures"
17:02:09 <alise> In the early seventies, Dr. Wang believed that calculators would become unprofitable low-margin commodities, and decided to exit the calculator business.
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17:05:14 <alise> "Swedish rape warrant for Wikileaks' Assange cancelled"
17:05:32 <alise> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11049316
17:14:21 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, incidentally, is Agda actually good for anything?
17:16:30 <alise> it's a research project :P
17:17:42 <alise> programming "actual programs" with some dependent typing, maybe
17:17:46 <alise> coq is the best for that
17:17:57 <alise> you can write libraries + proofs that they work, then export this code to O'Caml or Haskell
17:18:11 <alise> yes, it actually spits out almost-identical datatypes and codes for the non-proof portions
17:18:20 <alise> this is known as Awesome.
17:18:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, the WP article is called "Agda (theorem prover".
17:18:33 <alise> Agda (theorem prover), the programming language and theorem prover
17:18:33 <alise> Agda (Golgafrinchan), the character in The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas Adams
17:18:33 <alise> Agda (Bishop) ( –1024), the Roman catholic bishop of Oviedo
17:18:47 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: anyway, yeah, Coq extraction: fucking awesome or amazingly fucking awesome???
17:19:25 <Phantom_Hoover> "Per Martin-Löf is an enthusiastic bird-watcher, whose first scientific publication was on the mortality rates of ringed birds."
17:19:25 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: write a coq function to do something
17:19:33 <alise> Extraction that_function.
17:19:48 <alise> even if it invokes proofs which other functions require, these will be elided in the extraction
17:20:07 <alise> Extraction Library ident.
17:20:07 <alise> Extraction of the whole Coq library ident.v to an ML module ident.ml. In case of name clash, identifiers are here renamed using prefixes coq_ or Coq_ to ensure a session-independent renaming.
17:20:07 <alise> Recursive Extraction Library ident.
17:20:07 <alise> Extraction of the Coq library ident.v and all other modules ident.v depends on.
17:20:20 <alise> Extraction Language Ocaml.
17:20:20 <alise> Extraction Language Haskell.
17:20:20 <alise> Extraction Language Scheme.
17:20:20 <alise> Extraction Language Toplevel.
17:21:25 <oerjan> Extraction Language Brainfuck.
17:23:44 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: and in fact
17:23:47 <alise> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/meldable-heap
17:23:50 <alise> is the haskell extraction of
17:23:55 <alise> http://code.google.com/p/priority-queues/
17:24:03 <alise> + some wrappers i think
17:24:11 <Phantom_Hoover> But this may well be because it took me about 10 minutes to write fact in coqtop.
17:24:29 <alise> use proofgeneral with electric mode and three window mode
17:24:34 <alise> it is absolutely the only way to stay sane
17:25:05 <alise> with proofgeneral electric three-window you have one window for your file
17:25:13 <alise> and one for misc. output
17:25:20 <alise> you can execute a command just by "TheCommand foo."
17:25:24 <alise> and proofs proceed automatically on .
17:26:28 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/meldable-heap/2.0.3/doc/html/src/Data-MeldableHeap-LazyBrodalOkasakiExtract.html
17:26:28 <alise> http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/meldable-heap/2.0.3/doc/html/src/Data-MeldableHeap-StrictBrodalOkasakiExtract.html
17:26:40 <alise> http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/meldable-heap/2.0.3/doc/html/src/Data-MeldableHeap-Lazy.html
17:26:42 <alise> http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/meldable-heap/2.0.3/doc/html/src/Data-MeldableHeap-Strict.html
17:26:46 <alise> the first two were extracted from Coq automatically
17:26:53 <alise> http://code.google.com/p/priority-queues/source/browse/#hg/brodal-okasaki the coq source
17:27:02 <alise> it is absolutely a requirement
17:27:27 <alise> just install it, set electric mode, set three window mode, make your emacs window big, and open a .v file
17:27:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Setting electric mode and setting three window mode entails what?
17:28:09 <alise> electric mode means that commands are executed on . -- you absolutely want this for proofs, so they can be interactive
17:28:14 <alise> three window mode i already explained
17:28:26 <alise> anyway, just trust me and do it, it'll be worth your while
17:28:34 <alise> after a short learning curve it's absolutely the easiest way
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18:30:02 <coppro> oh well, I suppose forcing me not to use gmail filters is good for me in the long run
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19:06:47 <coppro> alise: because Gmail can't grasp the notion of filtering individual messages when trying to run filters on existing mail
19:06:52 <coppro> it filters the entire conversation
19:07:01 <coppro> (but it doesn't do this for incoming mail... fail)
19:07:08 <alise> coppro: heh, really?
19:07:24 <alise> I'm, uh, just gonna run my own mail server asap.
19:07:34 <alise> I might use http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sieve_(mail_filtering_language), but the syntax is a bit weird.
19:07:54 <alise> In fact, what I might do is just make the mail server pass incoming mail into an executable (probably a shell script), which then moves it into the appropriate filesystem location.
19:08:08 <coppro> yeah, eventually I'll set something up of my own
19:08:14 <coppro> but Thunderbird can filter pretty well actually
19:08:20 <alise> yeah, but I hate client-dependence.
19:08:31 <alise> especially since I theoretically use a mobile too.
19:08:45 <alise> what happens if i didn't run my mail client recently? the whole point is to check for mail,a fter all
19:08:50 <coppro> eventually I will have a mail server
19:09:06 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sieve_(mail_filtering_language)#Example ;; this does absolutely nothing that a shell script or python can't do, heh
19:09:18 <alise> basically all it does there is parse the email silently :P
19:09:22 * pikhq should get a static IP and a domain
19:09:43 <alise> I'd like to run a server from home, but I'd also like something, well, faster.
19:09:54 <alise> Ideally I'd colocate, but I Don't Have That Kind of Money.
19:09:57 <alise> So ho hum, VPSes it is.
19:10:27 * pikhq should also continue cleaning out all the crap that's in ~
19:11:07 <alise> pikhq: careful, it'll turn into my Computer Renovation Plan
19:11:20 <alise> which is actually impossible as it has a step where A depends on B and B depends on A
19:11:37 <alise> Leonidas: Yeah! Oh?
19:11:43 <alise> Dammit Leonidas, reveal your secrets!
19:12:37 <pikhq> WHY DO I HAVE SO MANY PDFs
19:12:42 <pikhq> WHY IS THERE SO MUCH IN ~?
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19:14:00 <alise> pikhq: The basic idea is to change all my passwords into something generated by one of those fancy password-generator-and-storers, but one that's cross-platform and doesn't stink (with browser integration), so I can finally move away from my single-not-very-secure-password system, and get that new computer, and get that new mobile, and get a perfectly tuned Linux on the new computer, and switch the Internet connection to something better, with a static IPv6
19:14:00 <alise> reverse DNSed to my domain, which I will register, and a server running on that domain, and a reverse DNS on a subdomain of that domain to my new router, and hence my new computer, and an email server running on that server, serving an email address on that domain, which the ISP is registered with.
19:14:09 <alise> pikhq: The thing is, all these happen simultaneously.
19:14:27 <pikhq> rm: cannot remove `vala-0.7.7/gee/.libs/iterable.o': Operation not permitted
19:14:31 <alise> pikhq: As a result, I have ensured that my Computer Renovation Plan will never, ever go into effect.
19:14:53 <coppro> I need to clean my ~ soon
19:15:00 <pikhq> THAT WAS DONE AS ROOT
19:15:16 <pikhq> drwS---rwt 2 205232978 2148707191 8192 Dec 29 1969 iterable.o
19:15:19 <alise> it might be hardlinked to some /dev/ device :)
19:15:22 <pikhq> Holy *frak* that's fucked up.
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19:15:26 <alise> S and t, what the hell?
19:15:28 <alise> d is directory isn't it??
19:15:41 <alise> i have absolutely no clue what that permission is
19:15:43 <alise> please walk me through it
19:15:47 <alise> d is directory, right?
19:16:12 <coppro> S is setuid and t is sticky iirc
19:16:18 <alise> and d is directory?
19:16:43 <alise> "Downloading from 3 of 9 connected peers - 8.2 KiB/s"
19:17:12 <alise> there's about 30 peers total :P
19:17:22 <alise> shit now i'm uploading faster than my download, this will never download
19:18:54 <alise> wait, S isn't setuid on a directory, is it?
19:18:56 <alise> it means something else
19:19:12 <pikhq> So, what you're saying is that I should mount read-only and fsck.
19:19:18 <alise> The setuid permission set on a directory is ignored on UNIX and Linux systems [2]. FreeBSD can be configured to interpret it analogously to setgid, namely, to force all files and sub-directories to be owned by the top directory owner.[3]
19:19:24 <alise> pikhq: i'd use a livecd
19:19:28 <alise> i wouldn't trust that system >_>
19:19:58 <pikhq> alise: I had an incidence of filesystem corruption on /home/ in the past, courtesy of LVM so "helpfully" not actually being atomic.
19:20:17 <alise> This is why LVM sucks >_>
19:20:26 <pikhq> / is still good, /home/ just has... Some crap in it still.
19:20:42 <alise> try and cd to iterable.so
19:20:46 <alise> if it's a directory
19:21:08 <pikhq> drwS---rwt 2 205232978 2148707191 8192 Dec 29 1969 .
19:21:08 <pikhq> drwxr-xr-x 3 pikhq pikhq 4096 Aug 14 11:40 ..
19:21:37 <pikhq> zsh: operation not permitted: foo
19:21:58 <alise> I suggest (1) copying it somewhere to preserve the crazy, then (2) rmdir
19:21:58 <pikhq> zsh: operation not permitted: foo
19:22:12 <pikhq> I'll tar the crazy.
19:23:00 <pikhq> I can *create* files in there
19:23:04 <pikhq> I cannot *remove* files.
19:23:15 <alise> it'll break shit, i bet
19:23:26 <alise> there must be more to this than just the permissions
19:23:29 <alise> a file has become a directory
19:23:30 <alise> where's the file data?
19:23:36 <alise> does the directory still point to the inodes somehow?
19:23:44 <alise> pikhq: can you open() the directory?
19:23:48 <alise> maybe you can read it :D
19:24:03 <pikhq> chmod: changing permissions of `iterable.o': Operation not permitted
19:24:13 <alise> just ... just leave it there
19:24:18 <alise> how big is the filesystem?
19:24:20 <pikhq> chown: changing ownership of `iterable.o': Operation not permitted
19:24:43 <pikhq> alise: 758G, 221G free.
19:24:58 <alise> pikhq: Do you have more of that space? :P
19:25:07 <alise> Compress the whole FS up :D
19:25:26 <pikhq> alise: Most of it's videos.
19:25:42 <coppro> alise: more filtering shit
19:25:53 <alise> pikhq: yeah but you'd have to compress the whole 700 gigs
19:25:58 <alise> coppro: hmm, what?
19:26:20 <pikhq> Aaaand I only have the 1TB drive here.
19:26:20 <coppro> alise: gmail's retarded notion of tags means that client-based filtering doesn't work correctly
19:26:33 <alise> gmail w/ imap is utterly pointlessly horrible
19:26:41 <alise> pikhq: blu-ray drive? :P
19:26:44 <coppro> it's been fine for me for a long time
19:35:33 <alise> "4 hours remaining"
19:38:29 <alise> Note that the symbol int is overloaded: it is both a static constant and a sort. Given an integer i (of sort int), int(i) is a singleton type containing only the integer i. So int is often called a type constructor. We now define a type constant Int as follows:
19:44:54 * coppro starts migrating mail off of gmail
19:45:16 <coppro> UW Computer Science Club
19:45:17 <alise> you can have my VPS :-P
19:45:26 <alise> ugh, I hate university/company mail
19:45:37 -!- tombom has joined.
19:45:39 <alise> you /know/ you're not going to be there forever
19:45:41 <coppro> alise: UW CSC is imap from my homedir
19:45:49 <coppro> CSC membership is renewable indefinitely
19:46:15 <coppro> in theory, you don't even need to be a student to have signed up in the first place
19:46:26 <alise> ok, so say you move to ... australia and become a successful ... jazz musician, who plays nomic in his spare time
19:46:33 <alise> do you still want to use the CSC address? :D
19:47:10 <coppro> or migrate it, since I have access to the datatfiles
19:47:23 <alise> yeah, but still, it involves an address change
19:47:48 <coppro> yes; eventually I'll probably get a domain of my own
19:47:52 <coppro> that's not right now though
19:47:58 <coppro> and gmail broke the last straw
19:48:02 <alise> "Alexander Limi makes software easier to use. Founder of the open source project plone" ;; Plone, the height of usability and simplicity.
19:48:19 <alise> coppro: you'll be missing the ui in approx. 10 minutes
19:48:36 <coppro> alise: honestly, I rarely go on gmail proper as-is
19:49:08 <alise> i have "plans" to create the Perfect Email Application
19:49:22 <coppro> I'll ping you about it in 40 years
19:49:24 <alise> originally it was a guiy type affair with conversations and labels but, you know, better ... but that was when i was a mac guy
19:49:33 <alise> i guess now it'll be all cat(1)y
19:49:40 <alise> actually, oh, i remember my latest design
19:49:42 <alise> it was really nice
19:50:01 <alise> a dual pane interface showing nested threads on the right, but on the left a conversation style view
19:50:07 <alise> and the selected item on the right changed as you scrolled the left
19:50:08 <coppro> the only time GMail's 'All Mail' folder is coming in remotely handy is when I'm moving everything off gmail
19:51:13 <alise> ATS is interesting
19:51:28 <coppro> my only question is whether I care about ancient mail...
19:51:36 <alise> coppro: you probably don't even care about recent mail
19:51:52 <alise> i'd just leave it on gmail for reference
19:52:04 <coppro> oh wait, my mail doesn't even come close to my quota
19:52:04 <alise> you probably won't need it after a couple of weeks
19:52:16 <alise> also, fuck quotas >_>
19:52:33 -!- zeotrope has joined.
19:52:36 <alise> but i'm a control freak
19:52:55 <coppro> 4GB, and it's not like it's the only computer I'm allowed to use
19:53:48 <coppro> I bet I could get it upped if I needed it, too
19:53:53 <alise> i need infinite money and a very fast symmetrical fibre-optic link
19:53:59 <alise> and a big, big house
19:54:04 <alise> then i can run EVERYTHING
19:54:18 -!- Gregor-P has joined.
19:54:33 <alise> (gregor-p gregor) => T
19:54:36 <alise> (gregor-p alise) => NIL
19:57:10 <coppro> also, I discovered a neat TB feature
19:57:19 <coppro> it has mailserver autodetection
19:57:32 <alise> tuberculosis does have some good feature
19:58:49 <alise> http://wondermark.com/650/
20:07:59 <coppro> whee, mail is being copied!
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20:16:44 <sebbu2> http://www.osnews.com/images/comics/wtfm.jpg :)
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20:40:13 <alise> oh no! a Killerkid!
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20:48:47 <fizzie> (I simply can not have that though whenever there's a "oh no" anywhere.)
20:49:16 <fizzie> Can not avoid having, I mean.
20:49:32 <alise> fizzie: *thought, you mean.
20:50:34 <alise> fizzie: Did you ever played /3D Lemmings/? It's ... not good.
20:51:30 <Sgeo> Anything like 3d worms?
20:51:34 <fizzie> I think I did try it out, though the details are a bit hazy. "Not good" is what I thought it were.
20:55:12 <alise> Sgeo: Worms 3D is actually better.
20:55:19 <alise> fizzie: *was, you mean!
20:56:35 <fizzie> I no can spells and spaek.
20:57:47 -!- pikhq has quit (Quit: Rebooting).
21:00:38 -!- pikhq has joined.
21:00:45 <Ilari> Hah... Rat study of metabolic syndrome... The food for rats: Loads of linolic acid (some of it rancid): Check. Loads of trans fats (from hydrogenation): Check. Dihydrovitamin-K1 (what's roughly known about that substance: 1) It forms from vitamin K1 in hydrogenation, 2) it is nasty stuff): Check.
21:03:00 <alise> Ilari: http://www.theonion.com/articles/worlds-scientists-admit-they-just-dont-like-mice,1256/
21:03:48 -!- nooga has joined.
21:05:53 <nooga> i'm building chromium
21:08:22 <pikhq> alise: Fun fact: the ATI drivers work so much better than the free software ones.
21:08:34 <pikhq> Dear god I get full-screen Flash actually working well.
21:08:54 <pikhq> (which is not to say Flash is *good*, but it's... Working as intended, at least.)
21:09:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Ilari, do you plan to implement Brainfuck with the rats?
21:09:10 <alise> pikhq: Yes, indeed.
21:09:16 <alise> pikhq: Flash AV sync is still awful though.
21:09:39 <alise> pikhq: have you taken a look at ATS? it's a form of dependent types + linear types that allows raw memory access etc. safely in a strict-or-lazy functional/imperative language
21:09:43 <alise> http://www.ats-lang.org/
21:09:51 <alise> performance and memory usage comparable to C/C++
21:09:58 <pikhq> alise: The only trouble I've had with Flash's AV sync *recently* has been that every now and then it decides to completely omit the concept.
21:10:03 <alise> proper SMP multiprocessing too
21:10:09 <pikhq> "Let's play a few seconds worth of audio in a few frames!"
21:10:17 <pikhq> ... Which is when I kill npviewer.bin.
21:11:44 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Adventures_of_Lomax
21:11:47 <alise> anyone ever play this
21:14:58 <Sgeo> At some point, I'm just going to start forgetting languages to make room for new ones
21:15:03 <Sgeo> (Ok, not really, but still)
21:16:12 <oerjan> hah i've forgotten more languages than you will ever learn
21:16:52 <Sgeo> Should I learn ATS or Falcon?
21:16:58 <Sgeo> (That was a joke question btw)
21:17:55 <Sgeo> Statics don't use currying functions?
21:18:19 <Sgeo> Also, they don't seem to stop to explain syntax
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21:18:28 <Sgeo> I guess it's understandable enough though
21:18:39 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATS_(programming_language)
21:19:07 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATS_(programming_language) has stuff :P
21:19:19 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, ..lolwhat?
21:19:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Learning languages is boring if they use the same paradigm as something else you know.
21:19:25 <Sgeo> Why.. bother learning a ... ah
21:19:35 <Sgeo> Well, I have no previous exposure to static types
21:19:42 <Sgeo> erm, dependent
21:20:04 -!- zeotrope has joined.
21:20:17 <Sgeo> Also, maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but I can see ATS becoming a new favorite programming language
21:20:37 <alise> chris double is doing ats stuff right now http://www.bluishcoder.co.nz/
21:20:49 <alise> take a look at their proven-to-return-a-sorted-permutation quicksort though
21:20:50 <alise> http://www.ats-lang.org/EXAMPLE/MISC/listquicksort_dats.html
21:21:16 <alise> but then it does build lists from scratch
21:23:12 <alise> meh, i don't mind it
21:23:14 <alise> Sgeo: there is a tutorial btw
21:23:17 <alise> http://www.ats-lang.org/TUTORIAL/tutorial.html
21:23:40 <Sgeo> alise, that's what I'm looking at
21:23:47 <Sgeo> It's not all that comprehendible
21:24:07 <Sgeo> Where does it explain the difference between static and dynamic?
21:24:40 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined.
21:25:24 <Sgeo> Is [] existential quantification a syntax thing?
21:25:26 <Phantom_Hoover_> Sgeo, why not learn Coq if you want to do dependent types?
21:25:34 <Sgeo> Or just an illustrative thing like >> in Smalltalk?
21:25:46 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover_, because I also want something that's practical
21:26:55 <alise> Sgeo: ATS isn't really "practical".
21:27:03 <alise> Sgeo: Coq is practical.
21:27:16 <alise> It has been used to re-prove the four colour theorem; not easy.
21:27:26 <alise> It has also been used to create quite a few libraries that have been proved correct,
21:27:30 <alise> then extracted to Haskell, O'Caml or Scheme.
21:27:45 <alise> ATS is more for the actual programs, sure, but Coq is practical too, and ATS is quite research too.
21:27:46 <Sgeo> alise, how about for, say, making a game?
21:28:07 <Phantom_Hoover_> Sgeo, well, if you want your game to be provably correct, then yes.
21:28:10 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: no. well, you could probably model it.
21:28:14 <alise> you could probably model IO
21:28:18 <alise> and then do infinite stuff with that, too
21:28:19 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
21:28:27 <alise> Sgeo: doing that in a formally verified way in ATS would be a gigantic impossible bitch
21:28:32 <alise> if you don't want to formally verify it ... why use these languages?
21:29:08 <alise> Sgeo: if you want to fall in love with a nice functional language, take a look at the (vapourware, but well-designed) http://merd.sourceforge.net/ :P
21:29:15 <alise> i'm not discouraging you learning ats, just your reasons
21:29:33 <Sgeo> What about formally verifying _parts_ of the game?
21:29:47 <alise> you could write those parts in coq and extract them. it's not like they'd do any IO
21:29:54 <alise> (formally verifying SDL calls? that doesn't make any sense.)
21:30:18 <alise> with coq, you write functions and prove shit about them then extract them as a library to haskell, o'caml or scheme
21:30:34 <alise> which converts them (barely compilation, it's a quite direct conversion) to one of those languages
21:30:45 <alise> you write some wrappers, and then just plug it in to the rest of your program
21:30:49 <alise> ats is easier to write code in than coq though
21:30:50 <Phantom_Hoover_> alise, on that topic, what if your function uses nats, for instance?
21:31:01 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: it extracts the data types you use
21:31:15 <alise> in this case it'd be peano-arithmetic nats, or you could probably do something to make it specialise to Int on extraction but i don't know how
21:31:54 <alise> but uh clearly my lang is the best :)
21:31:57 <alise> i really like merd
21:32:00 <alise> even if it is shit
21:32:26 * oerjan considers swatting alise
21:32:33 <alise> no, it actually is
21:33:39 <Sgeo> Ok, static terms can be used in types?
21:33:45 <oerjan> painfully poorly punctuated puns
21:34:26 <Sgeo> It's been on hold since 2003
21:34:43 <alise> Sgeo: it isn't actually vaporware though
21:34:45 <alise> there's an implementation
21:34:51 <alise> it just doesn't do everything
21:34:55 <alise> and yeah, the project is dead
21:35:05 <alise> SEXY FUNCTIONAL LANGUAGES
21:35:22 <alise> Let me show you my Gonad typeclass.
21:35:40 <Phantom_Hoover_> That could be related to my SHOCKING TRUTH from yesterday.
21:36:49 <oerjan> class Gonad g where type Gonad h => h; copulate :: g -> h -> IO ()
21:37:12 <alise> "type Gonad h => h" ;; i forget what this does
21:37:17 * oerjan doesn't actually know how type families work
21:37:18 <alise> it just asks for another gonad?
21:37:34 <oerjan> yeah that was the idea
21:38:16 <alise> class Gonad g where nruter :: g a -> a; dnib :: a -> (g a -> b) -> b
21:38:28 <alise> challenge: find a use
21:38:35 <alise> (these are not comonads, afaik)
21:38:45 <oerjan> i was going to ask about that
21:38:55 <alise> extend :: (w a -> b) -> w a -> w b
21:39:02 <alise> so with comonads, the result is still X b
21:39:05 <alise> whereas with mine the result is b
21:39:10 <oerjan> well nruter has the type of coreturn or whatever
21:39:18 <alise> the only change is w b into b
21:39:21 <alise> mine are the direct opposite of monads
21:39:24 <Phantom_Hoover_> Well, there's no immediate way to construct a value of type g a.
21:39:27 <alise> i.e. replace "m a" with "a" and "a" with "g a"
21:39:30 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: uhh
21:39:34 <alise> dnib :: a -> (g a -> b) -> b
21:39:54 <alise> presumably x `dnib` nruter = x
21:40:37 <alise> then nruter (x `dnib` id) = x, ofc
21:40:45 * alise renames them danoms, not gonads
21:40:48 <alise> since this is actually interesting :P
21:44:58 * Sgeo hahs at ATS's fix notation
21:47:05 <alise> instance Danom Identity where
21:47:05 <alise> nruter (Identity x) = x
21:47:05 <alise> dnib x f = f (Identity x)
21:47:14 <alise> instance Danom ((,) a) where
21:47:15 <alise> dnib x f = f (x,x) -- I do not think this one is very useful
21:48:10 <alise> can't have Danom []
21:48:12 <alise> since nruter [] = ???
21:48:31 <oerjan> alise: erm dnib x f = f (x,x) is not the right type i think
21:48:32 * alise does it for streams
21:48:39 <derdon> alise: which language are you talking about?
21:48:45 <alise> derdon: haskell, atm
21:48:47 <oerjan> the a in the instance is not the same as the a in the dnib type
21:49:04 <derdon> alise: ah, then I detected it correctly :)
21:49:12 <alise> dnib :: a -> ((a,c) -> b) -> b
21:49:20 <derdon> alise: although Haskell is not really esoteric
21:49:28 <alise> derdon: but what we're doing is
21:49:40 <alise> oerjan: well ... it's not entirely clear what to do at all, then :D
21:49:49 <alise> could you just specify like ()?
21:49:53 <alise> or is it quantified in itself?
21:50:00 <oerjan> indeed that seems undefined, unless you use undefined
21:50:45 <oerjan> the c could be a specific type
21:50:47 <alise> data Stream a = SC a (Stream a)
21:50:47 <alise> adinf :: a -> Stream a
21:50:48 <alise> adinf x = SC x (adinf x)
21:50:48 <alise> instance Danom Stream where
21:50:48 <alise> nruter (SC x _) = x
21:50:48 <alise> dnib x f = f (adinf x)
21:50:55 <alise> not much interesting seems to happen in these
21:50:57 * alise wonders about Either
21:51:02 <Sgeo> Ok, so there's #include, and then compilation
21:51:03 <alise> nope, can't do that
21:51:08 <Sgeo> That bit seems like C/C++
21:52:31 <oerjan> no, that's the wrong type
21:52:41 <oerjan> it needs to be whatever is in Right
21:53:25 <oerjan> it's Danom (Either a) so you cannot fix it that way
21:53:25 <alise> hmm EIther a a would work
21:53:38 <alise> data BothEither a = Left a | Right a
21:54:09 <oerjan> but that's just an obscured (Bool, a)
21:54:19 <Sgeo> Ok, ATS syntax gives me a headache
21:54:37 <alise> oerjan: good enough
21:54:43 <alise> Sgeo: you give my syntax a headache
21:55:12 <alise> oerjan: ah, but should it be f (BLeft x) or f (BRight x) :P
21:55:19 <Sgeo> alise has syntax. Therefore, alise is a language. Therefore, I should learn alise.
21:56:32 <oerjan> Syntax quidquid nullam altera monstrum
21:57:14 * oerjan has very little idea what he actually said
21:57:42 <alise> Sgeo: not in the biblical sense, i hope.
21:58:05 <fizzie> Isn't that just "know" in the biblical sense?
21:58:19 <fizzie> Maybe it's transitive to learning.
21:58:28 <alise> If you learn something, you know it.
22:00:45 <Zuu> and then you forget it
22:02:29 <alise> oerjan: i think we can conclude that danoms are useless
22:02:58 <Sgeo> useless != not fun
22:03:12 <Sgeo> I think everyone in this channel should know that
22:03:15 <oerjan> maybe a little too much like _both_ monads and comonads at the same time...
22:09:00 <Sgeo> I seem to have gotten in a bit on an online argument
22:09:05 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
22:10:54 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/geek/comments/d3o6c/futurama_writer_created_and_proved_a_brand_new/c0xc7rm
22:15:33 <Phantom_Hoover_> I hope that's a troll, but I met a 13-year-old today who couldn't divide 6 by 3, so...
22:17:09 <Sgeo> They didn't even come up with the conjecture
22:17:13 <Sgeo> I rewatched the episode today
22:17:29 <Sgeo> They didn't wonder "Well, given any possible mixup, is there a solution?"
22:17:34 <Sgeo> Or anything along those lines
22:19:28 <Mathnerd314> Phantom_Hoover_: because it's so _v_ erbose?
22:21:33 <alise> Mathnerd314: lemme guess, you like agda
22:21:53 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: coq au Vin? :P
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22:25:47 <Sgeo> "No, they came up with a solution that works in all cases, as proven by the futurama guy. Stop being a dumbass.
22:29:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, he's an idiot, and he's being overwhelmingly downvoted. Leave it.
22:31:39 <alise> "You are a pathetic person."
22:39:08 <alise> If you have them all, you have seen the episode. Why are you acting like a helpless retard?
22:39:10 <alise> You'll notice that I said I haven't started watching the series yet. Having something and having seen it are two different things. Please don't resort to personal insults.
22:39:12 <alise> You are a personal insult for being a dumbass.
22:39:34 <alise> Sgeo: segoli is two removals and one swap away from sgeo!
22:41:00 <alise> Sgeo: insomniac84 is a known troll iirc
22:41:27 -!- sftp has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:42:34 <Sgeo> Well, now I have my doubts that insomniac84 has even seen the relevant episode
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23:14:33 * Sgeo vaguely wonders if deja vu is dangerous
23:14:42 <Sgeo> Erm, indication of something dangerous
23:18:37 <Phantom_Hoover_> Everyone gets it throughout their life, so it's hardly abnormal.
23:20:14 <Sgeo> But can lack of sleep make it worse?
23:20:20 <Sgeo> And I think lack of sleep is dangerous
23:22:02 <Phantom_Hoover_> Do you end up thinking wildly incoherent thoughts, like augur thinking he was a lambda term.
23:23:00 <Sgeo> I'm not dejavuing right now, just tired
23:27:16 <Sgeo> As far as I can tell, I am not Hallu
23:27:24 <Sgeo> Or polymorphed
23:28:02 <Sgeo> Maybe this is a drea,
23:28:17 <Sgeo> pikhq, do a reality check.
23:31:43 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: wat
23:31:56 <alise> pikhq: Music tagging adventures, part n: I have decided to simply elide "title" tags from untitled works.
23:32:38 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover_> Do you end up thinking wildly incoherent thoughts, like augur thinking he was a lambda term. ;; XD
23:33:18 <alise> I think he meant Phantom_Hoover_.
23:33:32 <alise> pikhq: However, this is causing me to run into problems, as Quod Libet insists that such a track is actually titled "1.flac [Unknown]".
23:33:43 <Sgeo> Well, if pikhq doesn't want to become lucid, he'll just drown in the raingutter
23:34:02 <Phantom_Hoover_> Trying Check reality. in a virgin environment: Error: The reference reality was not found in the current environment.
23:34:03 <alise> pikhq: Therefore, I think I will do "title=".
23:34:09 <alise> virgin environment!
23:36:21 <alise> sigh, title= doesn't work either
23:37:14 <alise> pikhq: technically, titling something the empty string isn't the same thing as not naming something, is it?
23:38:27 * Sgeo goes to read DCs say the darndest things
23:39:28 <Phantom_Hoover_> I can only assume it uses magic, or that I missed something.
23:40:21 <Sgeo> auxto is oww-to
23:40:43 <Phantom_Hoover_> I /think/ it's one of Coq's built in tactics, but I think it's just something you type in after doing something to see if it completes the proof.
23:43:14 * Sgeo is just being an Esperanto nut
23:47:44 <Sgeo> "then this slutty looking girl came up to me (her shirt didn't even cover her chest xP) and wanted me to follow her to have sex. ... Anyways, on the way to the closet, she was talking about all the STD's she had or something."
23:48:40 <Sgeo> http://www.dreamviews.com/f28/dcs-say-darndest-things-19509/index69.html#post1486806
23:49:00 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover_> I can only assume it uses magic, or that I missed something.
23:49:03 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover_> I /think/ it's one of Coq's built in tactics, but I think it's just something you type in after doing something to see if it completes the proof.
23:49:11 <alise> it simply tries a bunch of common tactics
23:49:24 <alise> like things that automatically prove simple arithmetic statements, things that prove things from datatype constructions
23:50:44 <Sgeo> "Spock: [to me, raising an eyebrow] "...I am quite tasty, captain.""
23:51:28 <alise> "Well now what?" ;; hey look it's (maybe) augur
00:02:16 <alise> I guess I'm 15 now, huh.
00:03:37 <Vorpal> alise, much nostalgia yet?
00:03:46 <Vorpal> or I guess that will take a few more years
00:05:26 <alise> Vorpal: I've had nostalgia since I was, what, 10.
00:05:28 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, wait, you are younger than me
00:05:33 <alise> Mostly for things I /wasn't alive for/.
00:05:40 <alise> Vorpal: Yes, but when Phantom_Hoover_'s older than you, he'll KICK YOUR ASS
00:06:08 <Vorpal> alise, hm... relativity right?
00:06:17 <alise> See, when Phantom_Hoover_ grows up, he'll be older than you.
00:06:20 <alise> Then he'll kick your ass.
00:06:44 <Vorpal> alise, you forgot I age too, so this only works by relativity
00:07:07 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, yes but I was writing my line while you said that
00:07:30 <Vorpal> didn't see it until after
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00:07:51 <alise> <Vorpal> alise, you forgot I age too, so this only works by relativity
00:08:00 <alise> I say, I say, that's a joke, son.
00:08:24 <Phantom_Hoover_> alise, yes, his sense of humour goes through nonexistent and approaches existence from the other side.
00:08:27 <Vorpal> alise, yes but #esoteric is all about taking jokes seriously, iirc ais said so
00:08:32 <Vorpal> and he is an AUTHORITY
00:08:45 <alise> that wasn't meant as a defence of you, dude.
00:08:50 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: But only approaches.
00:09:12 <Vorpal> alise, maybe, but I can use it as one
00:09:54 <Phantom_Hoover_> I could put him in a Buissard ramjet and fire it somewhere, but that'd take too long to slow down.
00:10:33 <alise> Does he actually have to get back?
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00:11:34 <alise> Kick a piece of air. One day, the particles will reach him, and kick his ass.
00:11:40 <alise> Plus, we can get rid of him!
00:12:09 <Vorpal> alternative: hire Chuck Norris. Except chuck Norris can't be hired for money.
00:12:29 <alise> Chuck Norris is a fuckwit.
00:12:39 <Phantom_Hoover_> Chuck Norris roundhouse kicking you in the face would send you back in time.
00:12:44 <alise> Seen that video where he talks about bible-based education shit?
00:12:57 <Vorpal> btw, rule 34 on Chuck Norris.
00:13:25 <Vorpal> hm on second thought, no indeed
00:13:44 <Vorpal> okay then... rule 34 on Feynman diagrams and/or Feynman?
00:14:00 <alise> i'd totally go gay for feynman
00:14:11 <alise> http://www.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&safe=off&ie=ISO-8859-1&tbs=isch:1&sa=1&q=richard+feynman+porn&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=
00:14:16 <alise> the world is not evil enough to create it
00:14:31 <Phantom_Hoover_> Yeah, but you'd need Chuck Norris to roundhouse kick you in the face to send you back in time to see him.
00:15:02 <Phantom_Hoover_> And then he would have to roundhouse kick you in the face in the past, as well, to make your go forward/
00:16:32 <Phantom_Hoover_> At which point you'd look like you could be spread on toast.
00:16:39 <alise> Sgeo: dreamviews is so boring
00:16:48 <alise> i like ld4all, it's fun just separating the legitimate, useful content from the mystical crap
00:16:54 <alise> gotta have some entertainment right?
00:17:03 <alise> their website design used to be hilarious, you had to hover over an arrow picture to scroll
00:17:36 <alise> http://www.ld4all.com/guide.html still does! but you can scroll manually it seems
00:17:57 <alise> and it isn't hovering, it's clicking and holding
00:18:07 <Vorpal> alise, is safe search off?
00:19:01 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: there's one or two new agey forums and some of the members are kooky like that but the actual site is useful :P
00:19:10 <alise> and the forums are/were the biggest lucid dreaming forum when i knew them
00:19:18 <alise> but yeah, it does have a tinge of that.
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00:24:54 <alise> Sgeo: what technique do you use to LD?
00:25:12 <alise> and my eyes flick around like REM, half-induced by me, and i start to get very relaxed, but i can never sustain it for long enough
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00:31:11 * Sgeo is way too tired
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00:44:49 <alise> Sgeo: you know, a verified, optimising C compiler has been written in coq
00:44:57 <alise> (similar performance to gcc3 -O1)
00:45:04 <alise> compiles to powerpc
00:45:08 <alise> written by the author of ocaml
00:45:27 <Sgeo> Great, now where's my instatiredbyegone machine?
00:45:46 <alise> Sgeo: quit complaining and go to fucking bed
00:46:36 <Sgeo> Can't go to bed early
00:48:15 <alise> pikhq: replaygain_track_gain = -17.67 dB
00:48:17 <alise> pikhq: is that a record? :D
00:48:26 <alise> same album, different track: +0.01 dB
00:48:48 <alise> (replaygain_album_gain = -10.95 dB)
00:49:05 <alise> track peaks are all 0.9... or 1 :P
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01:11:20 <alise> staload "foo.sats" // foo.sats is loaded and then opened into the current namespace
01:11:20 <alise> staload F "foo.sats" // to use identifiers qualified as $F.bar
01:11:20 <alise> dynload "foo.dats" // loaded dynamically at run-time
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01:19:35 <alise> http://ijpeffwa.friendsofsmash.co.uk/
01:19:36 <alise> The International Jurassic Park Erotic Fan-Fiction Writer's Association
01:39:39 <alise> "You can buy T-Rex and put him in your house! –
01:39:39 <alise> –...for PROFIT!" --qwantz page
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02:06:50 <zzo38> Now I wrote Deadfish interpreter in TeX.
02:07:04 <zzo38> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Deadfish#TeX
02:09:02 <alise> A true milestone for humanity.
02:09:52 <alise> speaking of implementations, someone still ought to write a http://esolangs.org/wiki/Redivider compiler
02:09:56 <alise> bonus points if you compile the regexp to an automaton
02:10:34 <zzo38> The "esolangs.org" domain does not keep the login cookies?
02:10:52 <alise> It's the "official" one.
02:10:59 <alise> The voxelperfect alias is just the server, methinks.
02:11:07 <alise> Log in to esolangs.org and it'll work.
02:12:33 <zzo38> alise: It doesn't work when I try. When I do that, it redirects to the other domain and sets the cookie there anyways, so you cannot be logged in to "esolangs.org" domain unless you copy the cookie using a cookie management function.
02:13:02 <alise> Your browser is borken.
02:13:17 <alise> I just did it; not a single redirection.
02:15:32 <coppro> oh gawd the slowness pains
02:15:52 <coppro> alise: uploading my mail to the new server
02:16:03 <zzo38> If you have TeX, try the Deadfish TeX interpreter, and figure out how it works (if you know how to use TeX, you will probably be able to figure it out easily)
02:16:22 <coppro> progressing at about 1 Hz
02:16:22 <alise> coppro: why bother?
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02:16:25 <alise> just store it locally
02:16:35 <coppro> alise: then there's a disconinuity!
02:16:41 <alise> cpressey: i just turned 11 1/2, do i get a present?!!!
02:16:42 <cpressey> Yes, you should totally just store it locally.
02:17:02 <cpressey> Context, as I have mentioned before, is for losers.
02:17:21 <cpressey> alise: What signficance eleven point five?
02:18:07 <alise> cpressey: Actually, 15.
02:18:15 <alise> But, you know, same thing.
02:18:18 <cpressey> Oh. Well, happy birthday then!
02:18:35 <alise> Now where's my present?
02:19:35 <alise> Oh my god what have you done to this kitten
02:20:30 <cpressey> If you must know: mostly Ed Wood movies.
02:20:50 <alise> Dude, that can't explain the ... what is ...
02:21:32 <zzo38> Can we make a INTERCAL and Brainfuck combined?
02:23:05 <olsner> why dilute intercal with something more sane?
02:23:21 <alise> coppro: do not say yes
02:23:24 <alise> it will only encourage him!
02:23:48 <coppro> apparently my email upload should be done by 4PM tomorrow
02:25:02 <zzo38> cpressey: Not exactly what I meant, but I guess that is one way, to just put INTERCAL commands a brainfuck commands can be used together in one program
02:26:18 <zzo38> And then you can also combine codes of many other program languages, too
02:28:25 * alise wonders whether the fundamental features of an irc.IRCClient are its user credentials, or the server it's connecting to
02:29:39 <zzo38> I think the fundamental feature is connecting to the IRC server?
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02:30:07 <alise> i mean what should be in the constructor vs arguments to connect() :P
02:30:22 <zzo38> alise: What program language are you using?
02:30:53 <zzo38> I think it makes sense this way: connect(host,port[,nick,user,password,real])
02:30:54 <alise> Python, it sucks but makes this easy enough.
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02:31:06 <alise> zzo38: so you think it should just be "client = IRCClient()", with no arguments?
02:31:31 <zzo38> alise: O, you mean when creating the object.
02:31:57 <alise> e.g. client = IRCConnect(nick, user, pass, real); client.connect(host, port)
02:32:06 <alise> e.g. client = IRCClient(nick, user, pass, real); client.connect(host, port)
02:32:08 <zzo38> I suppose you can have the connect() function return itself so that you can do: IRCClient().connect(host,port)
02:32:11 <alise> client = IRCClient(host, port)
02:32:14 <alise> client.connect(nick, user, pass, real)
02:32:34 <zzo38> (I mean, connect() returns the IRCClient object)
02:33:31 <zzo38> So if you omit the nick,user,password,real, then it will not login, it will only connect and then you have to send the login command.
02:33:55 <zzo38> Actually better perhaps is to put password at the end, so that it can be omitted even if you do put in nick,user,real?
02:33:57 <alise> zzo38: it'll always take those, because it'll handle communicating with a nickname service thingybob to kick off any clients that may be using the name
02:34:07 <alise> (since the rest of my code is too lazy to handle that)
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02:37:38 <zzo38> Have you ever built a telephone?
02:38:32 <Sgeo> Disconnecting in a bit
02:39:26 <zzo38> I have a strange idea, which is adding a #catcode command into the C preprocessor
02:39:38 <Sgeo> Why not in 22min?
02:42:48 <zzo38> O, this hour has 22 minutes?
02:42:53 <zzo38> I thought this hour has 60 minutes?
02:43:04 <alise> coppro: timezone thing?
02:43:18 <alise> coppro: oh come on, elaborate
02:43:40 <zzo38> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/This_Hour_Has_22_Minutes
02:43:43 <coppro> it's no fun if I tell you >:D... aw
02:43:48 <alise> i googled 22min = 1hr
02:43:50 <alise> but didn't get anything
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02:44:46 <alise> i didn't get <zzo38> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/This_Hour_Has_22_Minutes
02:45:02 * Sgeo didn't see that >.>
02:45:38 <Sgeo> That was in my google results when google corrected 22min to 22 min
02:46:12 <zzo38> In my browser I configure it to put "&nfpr=1" in a ":g" Google search
02:46:34 <alise> presumably "don't correct".
02:46:56 <zzo38> I don't know what the letters stand for, but it fixes one of the problems with Google search.
02:47:22 <alise> how hopelessly vague
02:48:01 <zzo38> Maybe there are other parameters I can also add on to fix it more
02:48:35 <zzo38> Do you know what other parameters there is?
02:49:57 <Sgeo> Actually, I only Googled after alise said he didn't get stuff, I think
02:50:04 <Sgeo> Or maybe my memory's mixed up
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02:50:14 <Sgeo> Well, at least I'm human then
02:53:34 <alise> zzo38: What does nfpr=1 do?
02:54:25 <Sgeo> Why is Chrome so painful when it comes to Reddit
02:55:40 <zzo38> alise: It turns off autocorrect
02:57:07 <alise> zzo38: Which is not neccessarily fixing.
02:58:04 <zzo38> It fixes Google partially
02:58:14 <alise> zzo38: Some of us like autocorrect.
02:58:22 <alise> Calling it a "fix" is a bit presumptious...
02:58:45 <coppro> does it still offer fixes?
02:58:57 <coppro> I despise the "oh, here's what you meant to search for"
02:59:30 <alise> i dislike it, but *eh*
02:59:34 <alise> some people don't :P
02:59:37 <alise> http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/09/aceecas-pda32-keeps-the-palmos-dream-alive/ people still release palmos devices!
03:00:29 <zzo38> Have you ever played ZZT game or made anything with ZZT? How much do you know about internal functioning of ZZT?
03:00:46 <alise> None, no, nothing.
03:02:04 <zzo38> The source-codes of ZZT has been apparently lost, that is why I am rewriting a reimplementation of ZZT in Enhanced CWEB and with SDL.
03:02:19 <zzo38> olsner: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZZT
03:03:06 -!- myndzi\ has changed nick to myndzi.
03:03:24 <zzo38> (There are other clones of ZZT as well, but mine is different than the other clones, it is intended to be closer to the original, as well as being a full document about everything in ZZT.
03:04:09 <alise> ZZT is still for sale through mail order, according to Sweeney in a Gamasutra interview[3].
03:04:29 <myndzi> but not the source code (?)
03:04:43 <zzo38> alise: Yes, it is, although they offer the registered versions for download as well, at no cost.
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03:05:54 <zzo38> myndzi: And apparently they lost the source-codes. It was originally written in Turbo Pascal. Mine is C. But I try to make it accurate as possible, I even downloaded a Turbo Pascal reference manual for this purpose!
03:06:47 <zzo38> alise: What are you refering to?
03:06:53 <alise> why get a turbo pascal manual?
03:07:49 <zzo38> For maximum accuracy.
03:08:05 <alise> if you don't have the source how can that help
03:08:15 <olsner> for writing the pascall decompiler, of course
03:10:39 <olsner> or just to get in the right mood and mindset
03:12:22 <alise> zzo38: actually, I think I'll include all the arguments in the constructor
03:12:46 <alise> client = IRCClient('irc.freenode.net', 6667, 'botte', 'botte', 'botte')
03:13:43 <alise> whyy doesn't irc ghost automatically
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03:20:04 <zzo38> I also entered strange commands into ZZT to see what happens, and then think of how it was programmed to make it to do that, I also entered strange data into the world files that it will load, and I made memory dumps of ZZT.
03:20:56 <zzo38> I also require the endianness to be correct. (SDL provides macros to check the endianness at compile time, so I can make it refuse to compile on big-endian computers)
03:21:41 <zzo38> I am not writing a Pascal decompiler, and I don't need to decompile anything.
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03:22:05 <zzo38> Now do you understand?
03:22:31 <alise> i still can't figure out why you downloaded a pascal manual
03:23:16 <olsner> me neither, I don't think this explains how a pascal manual would be relevant
03:32:45 <zzo38> Maybe you can see, when you can see the program.
03:34:37 <alise> zzo38: Maybe you could tell us.
03:41:03 <alise> is the thing you connect to with a socket -- (host,port) -- really (host,port) or (hostname,port)?
03:41:05 <alise> unabbreviated, I mean
03:41:58 <zzo38> alise: I mean put the domain name or IP address
03:42:15 <alise> should be host then
03:42:18 <alise> as an ip isn't a hostname
03:42:25 <alise> wow, i just realised how awesome an irc library could be with continuations
03:42:42 <alise> info = whois("somebody"); print(info.channels);
03:42:51 <alise> and before the server returns the whois request
03:42:55 <alise> what the whois call would do is continue the server loop
03:42:59 <alise> so any incoming messages get handled
03:43:06 <alise> then when the whois reply returns, it calls the continuation it saved
03:43:18 <alise> also, any errors could be raised as exceptions in that continuation
03:46:06 <alise> zzo38: do you know if there's a name for the USER/(PASS)/NICK combination sent by the client?
03:53:50 <alise> coppro: but the server has no part in it
03:54:18 <zzo38> alise: I guess it is the login sequence?
03:54:23 <zzo38> I don't know if it has a name
03:56:29 <zzo38> When I write CZZT, then maybe Tim Sweeney should sell this book together in the same mail order?
04:02:48 <zzo38> Well, I want to send a copy of the book (and DVD) to him anyways
04:06:09 <zzo38> The DVD contain source-codes, executables, and DVI file for printing another copy
04:07:09 <alise> you could fit that on a cd.
04:07:42 <zzo38> I could use a CD. But blank DVDs are less expensive than blank CDs in Canada, due to music tax. It is stupid law, but it is the law anyways.
04:07:51 <zzo38> Even if you are not using the CDs for music.
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04:26:08 <zeotrope> zzo38: heard of the university copyright tariff proposal?
04:26:29 <zeotrope> http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/5250/125/
04:27:37 <alise> if you recv() from a socket and an \r\n is reached, you may still get stuff after that, right?
04:27:48 <zzo38> zeotrope: I have not heard of it before.
04:30:04 <coppro> If it's accepted, I will definitely go out of my way to have my uni not subscribe
04:34:54 <zeotrope> this tariff, bill C-32 and ACTA, grim future ahead if they pass
04:41:04 * alise decides /not/ to handle servers that send \r one send, then \n the very next message
04:41:07 <alise> that would be ludicrous.
04:41:31 <alise> python needs a multi_split :P
04:45:23 <alise> coppro: 'foo'.split_by_either(['\r', '\n'])
04:45:38 <alise> 'foobar'.split_by_either(['o', 'a']) -> ['f', '', 'b', 'r']
04:45:50 <alise> like using re.split
04:45:52 <alise> but not so heavyweight
04:46:08 <zzo38> I think maybe the law should be this: require businesses that use TPMs to include a prominent warning on their packaging
04:46:32 <zzo38> (And in addition, don't have any anti-circumvention laws)
04:47:40 <coppro> IIRC my computer has one but it's turned off
04:48:33 <zzo38> coppro: Then disconnect the TPM hardware
04:48:39 <zeotrope> the bill is good on the whole but the TPM stuff invalidates everything other freedom the bill offers
04:49:22 <coppro> zzo38: It's a laptop; too much work. Shutting it off at the bios is fine
04:49:35 <zzo38> They need to add a warning label on all DRM products. There are warning labels required for many other things too
04:49:40 <zzo38> coppro: O, it is a laptop.
04:50:05 <coppro> zeotrope: yes, uw student. Also member of the PPCA for what it's worth
04:51:00 <zeotrope> coppro: you should also join WSIC, http://wsic.uwaterloo.ca/
04:53:24 <coppro> zeotrope: I will check it out when I arrive
04:53:30 <coppro> are you a student there?
04:55:32 <zzo38> I have idea to built new computer, with new hardware and software, all GNU GPL (and other Free software), the hardware design has a few goals, one is that it is not too difficult to understand how it works (someone can open it and look), another goal is for the hardware design to prevent "digital locks" from working.
04:55:50 <zzo38> However, I can still see one hole in it, the "random number generator" hole, and I am unsure how to correct this.
04:57:11 <zzo38> My initial idea is to use ARM11 and DSPs, but later versions might be designed to use MMIX instead (with a "pre-initialization" mode).
04:57:40 <zzo38> Do you have any opinions about this?
04:58:15 <zeotrope> I don't understand why RNG would be a hole
04:58:34 * alise decides to submit http://merd.sourceforge.net/ to reddit, but cannot think of a title
04:58:57 <alise> maybe "merd language = dynamic expressivity + static type checks"
05:06:20 <zzo38> RNG can be a hole in some cases, especially when companies can provide external hardware that is required to load a game onto a computer.
05:06:44 <zzo38> Or even with network access, this can sometimes be a problem.
05:07:07 <zzo38> I can use trademarks to enforce some rules. But trademarks do not change a hardware design.
05:07:46 <zzo38> (You are not allowed to advertise your products as being compatible with this computer if you do not follow these rules)
05:08:49 <alise> how can rng be a hole
05:13:38 <zzo38> alise: O, you still don't know?
05:14:31 <zzo38> A game might have a random number generator, but then it uses the same sequence of random numbers each time, and ruins the game!
05:19:04 <zzo38> Well, the hardware is designed to prevent digital locks, but it isn't effective if a software company can just design their software so that it ruins the game if you try to mirror the program in hardware.....
05:25:49 <alise> And so, we come swiftly to a conclusion: allow me to introduce the Natty Narwhal, our mascot for development work that we expect to deliver as Ubuntu 11.04.
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05:38:42 <zzo38> Other ideas include:
05:39:34 <zzo38> Hardware-level debug chains, where the software being debugged cannot know it is being debugged, that the debugger can lie to the software about clock speed, time of day, IP address, and so on
05:39:47 <zzo38> That replacing system software requires opening up the box and changing some jumper switches
05:40:27 <zzo38> That it includes a comprehensive manual describing everything about the computer and how to program it
05:40:47 <zzo38> That there are simple hardware interfaces to connect to external devices, such as game controllers
05:41:09 <zzo38> That it has a built-in Forth and BASIC interpreter
05:42:38 <zzo38> That it has separate processors for main CPU and for video DSP and for audio DSP, all of which are reprogrammable (except for NMIs)
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06:54:51 <zzo38> How can you make arrows drunk with blood?
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07:15:05 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bir_Tawil This is terra nullius; anyone want to start a country?
07:16:34 <coppro> uh, that article says it's under Egyptian control
07:17:01 <pikhq> No, it says it was in 1902.
07:17:18 <pikhq> It is currently claimed by absolutely no state.
07:17:28 <coppro> I should mention this in #csc
07:17:38 <coppro> UW computer science club
07:17:48 <coppro> same sort of people generally as here
07:17:49 <pikhq> And under very well-defined international law, it would be perfectly valid for one to set up a country there.
07:17:56 <coppro> except they'd actually go there and start a country
07:18:15 <pikhq> If I had enough money to make a reasonable investment into it, I'd probably do so.
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07:18:40 <coppro> pikhq: you should tell Julian Assange
07:19:01 <pikhq> coppro: ... My *God*.
07:19:26 <pikhq> Though, unfortunately, he would instantly have war declared upon him.
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07:21:16 <coppro> the USA has actually signed the Montevideo Convention
07:21:47 <coppro> it won't stop them from taking some actions, but they'll do those anywhere
07:22:30 <pikhq> Somehow, I doubt they care.
07:22:49 <coppro> they wouldn't care about it in Sweden either
07:23:04 <coppro> the USA firmly believes in its right to kill other people
07:23:25 <pikhq> The USA firmly believes in its right to kill *everyone*.
07:24:01 <coppro> but that has to be approved
07:24:08 <coppro> and go through normal courts, etc.
07:24:17 <pikhq> The US military has recently had shoot-to-kill orders against US citizens.
07:24:28 <coppro> I thought that was illegal
07:24:58 <coppro> someone should try to sneak a right to life into the constitution and have the gop support it because they think it will ban abortion
07:25:35 <pikhq> Anwar al-Awlaki (born in Las Cruces, New Mexico) has standing shoot-to-kill orders against him.
07:25:46 <pikhq> Said orders from President Obama.
07:26:35 <coppro> oh wait, does the restriction against killing citizens only apply on US soil?
07:27:03 <pikhq> Doesn't matter; it's still blatantly illegal. You see, the US constitution requires due process.
07:28:23 <coppro> pikhq: that's only for crimes
07:28:31 <coppro> the US can in theory still kill someone arbitrarily
07:29:16 <pikhq> Under this crazy-ass loose interpretation of the US constitution, it can.
07:30:03 <pikhq> If you look at what it actually says, the US hardly has the authority to pick its nose.
07:30:24 <pikhq> (not that anyone actually *follows* what it says, but hey.)
07:30:47 <coppro> pikhq: yeah, I love the gop
07:30:52 <coppro> "let's uphold the US Constitution"
07:31:01 <coppro> *blatatanly violates it*
07:31:05 <coppro> "you disagree? you're unamerican!"
07:31:14 <pikhq> "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."
07:31:39 <pikhq> Hmm. The US is not delegated the power to kill people at random. Clearly, the US does not have it.
07:32:39 <coppro> clearly that falls within powers necessary for the general well-being
07:32:57 <coppro> ... honestly, the worst part of living in Canada is that we're next to you guys :(
07:34:09 <pikhq> "No state has the right to intervene in the internal or external affairs of another." -- Montevideo Convention.
07:34:17 <pikhq> That one clause the US ignores so damned much...
07:34:41 <coppro> is it actually law in the USA
07:36:46 <coppro> has anyone tried to use it to block government actions?
07:37:02 <coppro> or does your dumb concept of standing prevent it?
07:37:24 <pikhq> ... Waitwaitwait*what*?
07:37:37 <pikhq> "American law is that international accords become part of the body of U.S. federal law. As a result, Congress can modify or repeal treaties by subsequent legislative action, even if this amounts to a violation of the treaty under international law."
07:37:49 <pikhq> *Congress can repeal treaties with a simple majority*?!?
07:37:57 <coppro> that actually makes sense
07:38:09 <coppro> and is probably the case in most nations
07:38:57 <pikhq> In most nations, it is effectively a *contract* signed with other nations.
07:40:05 <coppro> they shoudl ratify the Vienna Convention
07:40:36 <coppro> although does Congress have power to limit itself?
07:40:45 <coppro> without a constitutional amendment
07:41:12 <pikhq> The Congress has the power to define its own rules of proceeding.
07:43:12 <coppro> does that include by enacting provisions which limit its further powers?
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07:44:20 <pikhq> "Each House may determine the Rules of its Proceedings, punish its Members for disorderly Behaviour, and, with the Concurrence of two-thirds, expel a Member."
07:44:50 <pikhq> Though it would probably have to be part of its rules of proceedings, *yes* it could in fact limit itself permanently.
07:45:13 <coppro> I suppose that should be construed as saying that an enactment can partially or permanently limit its powers, unless that would interfere with the execution of the Constitution
07:47:45 <coppro> in Canada, our chambers are constitutionally required to act by simple majority (yes, really); it's free to internally limit its procedures, but if it was tried to be permanent, it would probably be deemed unconstitutional under the principle that no Parliament should be able to limit a future one.
07:48:02 <coppro> (except by enactment, of course, but those are more directly subject to the constitution)
07:48:21 <pikhq> There is nothing in the US constitution that requires that Congress' laws be made by majority.
07:48:37 <pikhq> It would, in fact, be *perfectly* valid for Congress to cease making laws forever.
07:49:07 <pikhq> Or delegate its law-making powers to the President. Forever.
07:49:53 <pikhq> *However*, it would still be required to meet.
07:50:15 <coppro> and it would probably be interpreted as legal by the courts too
07:51:13 <coppro> that's the other safeguard here... a future Parliament effectively /cannot/ be hamstrung by the current one because the ultimate decision authority in affairs regarding the chambers is, in fact, the chambers themselves
07:52:55 <pikhq> There would be one way to make that complete lock-down stop. An amendment.
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07:53:22 <coppro> although in theory the courts could legally intervene if they determined that the constitution was being directly undermined by the
07:53:35 <coppro> *by the Parliament. They would be exceedingly loath to do so
07:53:51 <pikhq> In fact, an amendment could still be made if the *entire* US legal system had stopped.
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07:54:25 <pikhq> The US's constitution explicitly allows for constitutional conventions to make amendments.
07:54:33 <coppro> yeah, that's a good thing
07:54:45 <coppro> there should always be an emergency button
07:56:18 <pikhq> Yours is the remains of monarchy.
07:56:39 <pikhq> (quite unlike the UK's, which is literally a fully-functioning monarchy that refuses to exercise its power.)
07:57:43 <coppro> our monarchy still has similar powers to the UK's
07:58:00 <pikhq> Your monarchy has enumerated powers.
07:58:05 <pikhq> The UK's has enumerated restrictions.
07:58:29 <coppro> but most decisions made by the government are made through the monarchy
07:59:08 <coppro> in other news, I'm reading Robert's Rules
07:59:12 <coppro> which I should have done long ago
07:59:53 <pikhq> In Canada, this is *in name*.
07:59:59 <pikhq> In the UK, this is *in fact*.
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08:00:27 <pikhq> The Queen *literally* just delegates her powers.
08:00:53 <coppro> it's a good system, really
08:01:29 <pikhq> Among other things, she merely delegates her power to negotiate and ratify treaties.
08:01:36 <pikhq> Or to command the military.
08:01:41 <pikhq> Or issue passports.
08:01:53 <coppro> those powers fit entirely within prerogative
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08:02:22 <coppro> same with calling an election. If QE2 wanted, she could decide that we were having an election and we'd have one.
08:02:57 <pikhq> And declare war on fruit?
08:03:18 <coppro> although maybe declarations of war are subject to Parliament
08:04:07 <coppro> (they're still considered a prerogative though, just one with its application restricted by an Act)
08:05:23 <coppro> hmm... I don't see anything off-hand
08:05:30 <coppro> I guess war is still wholly a prerogative
08:07:04 <pikhq> Hrm. Okay, guess it is pretty similar in Canada.
08:07:23 <pikhq> *Except* that in the UK, she also acts as your ambassador to God.
08:07:58 <coppro> in general, anything that isn't explicitly covered by an Act is the same as in the UK, by tradition
08:07:58 <pikhq> Monarchy is confusing.
08:08:11 <coppro> it's not monarchy itself, it's damend uncodified law
08:08:27 <pikhq> Less so than having a constitution that is completely and utterly ignored, though.
08:08:38 <coppro> and then vehemently defended by the same people
08:09:01 <pikhq> At least in uncodified law, things are actually functioning according to what has been made law.
08:09:21 <coppro> admittedly, one of the benefits of uncodified law is that it can be flexible
08:11:11 <pikhq> Well, yes. Same damned legal system that served King Ælfrǣd the Great...
08:12:20 <pikhq> (styled REX SAXONUM)
08:13:22 <coppro> maybe in another 1100 years, it will work
08:13:39 <pikhq> Argh, that's not even the first monarch. Just the first King of the English.
08:14:16 <coppro> although most people consider it to have really started with the Magna Carta
08:14:39 <coppro> since that limited the monarch's powers
08:14:56 <pikhq> Eh, I consider it the same legal system before that. The Magna Carta is merely the first one to make it not total monarchy.
08:15:46 <pikhq> Huh. Actually, no.
08:15:53 <pikhq> Charter of Liberties predates it.
08:16:33 <pikhq> Much-ignored, but *that* was the first thing to limit the King's powers.
08:22:58 <pikhq> Man. The World Passport.
08:23:26 <pikhq> Published based on the assertion that this means you can just freely travel between countries: Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.
08:23:43 <pikhq> (from the Universal Declaration of Human Rights; signed by every UN member)
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08:24:49 <fizzie> Back when our place (Finland) was independizing (December 1917), there was some debate whether to be a republic or a monarchy. They chose a republic at first, but after that civil war thing there was a bit of power-shifting in the Parliament, and they decided they wanted a king after all; they elected some prince out of Germany as the king. Real soon after that the last German emperor abdicated, and our brand-new king renounced the throne as well.
08:25:43 <fizzie> "Governmental archives reveal that the monarchical designation of the king was intended, at least tentatively, to be 'Charles I, King of Finland and Karelia, Duke of Åland, Grand Prince of Lapland, Lord of Kaleva and the North'." I don't know, "Lord of -- the North" sounds a little bit grandiose.
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08:31:22 <pikhq> Try "William II & III and Mary II, King and Queen of England, Scotland, France and Ireland, Defenders of the Faith." for grandiose confusion.
08:31:32 <pikhq> (yes, that is a single title)
08:32:30 <fizzie> Well, Kaleva and North in that title are referring to the Kalevala mythology there, so it's a bit faith-based; just a different one.
08:32:51 <pikhq> I don't think you noticed "France" in there.
08:33:04 <pikhq> They claimed *France*.
08:33:06 <fizzie> Oh, I completely glossed over it. Heh.
08:33:19 <pikhq> Also, "King and Queen".
08:33:47 <fizzie> Well, I have this ambiguous-gender friend too...
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08:34:00 <pikhq> It wasn't ambiguous-gender.
08:34:10 <pikhq> The King/Queen regnant was two people.
08:34:26 <coppro> but legally one person?
08:34:40 <pikhq> Legally two people, but one monarch.
08:36:52 <fizzie> That doesn't sound too strange, but admittedly what I know of monarchies mostly comes from reading through the fantasy book aisle of the library at our behind-the-ass-end-of-nowhere summer cottage "city".
08:37:00 <pikhq> Except that they *were* married, so in a *sense* they were one entity.
08:37:14 <coppro> yeah, but what happens if they disagree about something?
08:37:17 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coregency has quite a lot of examples, still.
08:37:34 <coppro> or worse, get a divorce
08:37:46 <coppro> or was that when it was illegal?
08:38:09 <pikhq> No, it's after the formation of the Church of England for the sake of making divorce legal.
08:38:20 <pikhq> coppro: Well, they're still King/Queen regnant.
08:38:59 <pikhq> Andorra's whole monarchy setup confuses me.
08:39:50 <pikhq> One of their two co-Princes is elected. Just not in Andorra.
08:40:04 <coppro> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Whitlam_Ministry
08:40:36 <pikhq> It's the duly elected President of France.
08:40:51 <pikhq> Along with the Bishop of Urgell, in Spain.
08:40:57 <pikhq> Just... What the hell?
08:41:26 <pikhq> The French elect a Prince of Andorra.
08:42:42 <fizzie> Bishop of Urgell sounds equally random, even if it's not an elected position. (I profess to complete ignorance on how they select bishops.)
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08:42:56 <fizzie> "Andorra was ceded to the bishop of Urgell by the count Ermengol IV of Urgell in the twelfth century. There is still a bishop of Urgell, who since 2003 has been Joan Enric Vives Sicília. This role carries with it the position of joint head of state of Andorra."
08:43:22 <coppro> IIRC bishops are appointed
08:44:59 <fizzie> Still, looking at the list -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Co-Princes_of_Andorra -- it seems that having a bishop there is a lot stabler than "whoever's the top dog at France", given how much more complicated the right column looks.
08:46:01 <pikhq> coppro: It's a somewhat complicated procedure, it seems.
08:46:23 <pikhq> Among other things, it depends on which sub-church of the Roman Catholic Church is involved.
08:47:12 <coppro> canon law is ridiculous
08:47:25 <coppro> hell, it used to be a separate degree
08:47:30 <pikhq> 2000 year old legal institutions tend to be.
08:47:34 <coppro> (before it became pointless)
08:48:09 <coppro> pikhq: there were 10 :P
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08:54:33 <coppro> holy shit the motion to reconsider is confusing
08:55:21 <wareya> Today, I learned that it's not a good idea to attach a screen session to itself.
08:55:39 <coppro> I hate books with busted spines :(
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11:35:05 <Phantom_Hoover_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Christ_Vampire_Hunter has possibly the best plot synopsis I have ever seen on Wikipedia.
11:35:17 <Phantom_Hoover_> "Jesus fights with mixed martial arts skills and uses his carpentry skills to create weapons with which to slay vampires."
12:25:44 <Zuu> Sounds like an incredibly pointless movie
12:39:31 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, I wonder how that movie compares to plan 9... in quality
12:40:01 <Phantom_Hoover_> I think it's deliberately ridiculous. No, I know it's deliberately ridiculous.
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13:53:53 <Phantom_Hoover_> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/36/OLPC-Active_Antenna.jpg I love the way that it still has the green squiggle Word grammar check puts in on "for".
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14:23:35 <fizzie> Here's three recaptcha words I've gotten recently: http://zem.fi/~fis/faircaptcha.png -- the first one is in the Cyrillic alphabet, the second I have no clue about, and the third seems to have two levels of superscripts. Sometimes they might be asking a bit much.
14:26:03 <fizzie> каковую I reasonably could have written in, and perhaps hunted the second one down with some work, but I don't really know how they'd have wanted me to input the third one. MathML? TeX math notation?
14:27:00 <Phantom_Hoover_> reCAPTCHA uses, at least in part, words that it's not sure about, doesn't it?
14:28:20 <fizzie> Yes, IIRC one of the words it knows, the other it's trying to have you OCR for it.
14:29:14 <fizzie> My guess would be that those three would be those that it doesn't know, but I still wouldn't have felt comfortable entering any sort of garbage.
14:34:59 <Phantom_Hoover_> Well, for the 3rd you could have used some sort of flat format/
14:36:18 <fizzie> Personally I'd parse that as (X^(p^m))+1 and not X^(p^(m+1)) like it is.
14:54:48 <Phantom_Hoover_> This is primarily due to not knowing what a resonant frequency is.
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17:12:54 <Peping> Hello. I just made an interpreter for Braincopter. The problem is I'm too busy to make an IDE for it, and writing a program using just GIMP or MS Paint is too slow and difficult. Who's up for making an IDE? :)
17:13:56 <Peping> (actually I really need an IDE. Today's I and my gf have an anniversary and I though it would be nice to put some nice code into a nice picture
17:16:16 <Peping> Anyway.. is anybody even listening? Or everybody is on bounce?
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17:26:05 <Warrigal> IRC channels are never near as full as they seem to be. Luckily, as long as nobody else says much, what you said will be the first thing people see when they return.
17:28:20 <oerjan> the fact no one had spoken in 3 hours might also be a _teeny_ hint
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19:00:01 <alise> 23:15:05 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bir_Tawil This is terra nullius; anyone want to start a country?
19:00:19 <alise> 23:18:40 <coppro> pikhq: you should tell Julian Assange
19:00:19 <alise> 23:19:01 <pikhq> coppro: ... My *God*.
19:00:19 <alise> 23:19:26 <pikhq> Though, unfortunately, he would instantly have war declared upon him.
19:00:31 <alise> put a data centre there
19:00:38 <alise> host everything that isn't child porn
19:01:12 <alise> 23:25:35 <pikhq> Anwar al-Awlaki (born in Las Cruces, New Mexico) has standing shoot-to-kill orders against him.
19:01:12 <alise> 23:25:46 <pikhq> Said orders from President Obama.
19:03:57 <alise> 23:40:05 <coppro> they shoudl ratify the Vienna Convention
19:04:31 <alise> pikhq: I'm so glad the war in Iraq is over! I'm so glad drug laws have been made more reasonable! I'm so glad the economy is back on its feet!
19:04:42 <alise> What a wonderful thing, to live in America under Obama!
19:05:12 <pikhq> alise: And the balanced budget! Ooooh, and Gitmo!
19:05:21 <pikhq> What a wonderful thing, to live in America under Obama!
19:05:39 <alise> Aah, it's so nice that thing closed down.
19:05:44 <zeotrope> http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/
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19:06:13 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: You'd have to get a connection, yes.
19:06:25 <alise> And the tier-1 providers have rules, yes.
19:06:27 <Phantom_Hoover_> Just host them in one of the Terra Nullii in Antarctica; you wouldn't need to bother with cooling.
19:06:29 <Sgeo> You'd rather risk America under Palin?
19:06:33 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: ha
19:06:43 <alise> Sgeo: Oh, yes, I forgot, the American constitution specifies that there may only be two parties.
19:06:48 <pikhq> Sgeo: No. I WANT KUCINICH.
19:06:49 <alise> Also, Palin ran for president, not John McCain.
19:06:51 <Phantom_Hoover_> And it's near enough Argentina that you could run a cable there.
19:06:53 <alise> All these things are true.
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19:07:10 <Sgeo> As in, if something happened to McCain
19:07:23 <alise> Yes, because it's impossible to elect someone else entirely.
19:07:45 <alise> As I said, the glorious Constitution provides for two parties: the Republicans, and the Almost Republicans.
19:07:54 <Sgeo> At the time of the general election, it would be close enough to impossible
19:08:10 <alise> Yes, and that of course means that now, it is bad and wrong to complain.
19:08:28 <alise> Because you should accept what your horrific political climate decides to stick in your ass, and you should like it.
19:08:36 <alise> God bless America.
19:09:03 <pikhq> alise: One of the major misconceptions of American politics is that if you vote for !Republican || !Democrat then you have voted for RAPING BABIES WITH NUCLEAR MISSILES AND MACES
19:09:19 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: running a cable to argentina wouldn't help
19:09:30 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: because you'd need to get net-connected in argentina
19:09:32 <pikhq> Because somehow, voting for a third party *guarantees that evil will win*.
19:09:40 <alise> and i think all the providers require you obey the law of your country
19:09:55 <alise> besides, the fact is that you'd break argentinian law
19:10:10 <alise> pikhq: could you get connected to a tier-1 without going through another country, do you think?
19:10:16 <alise> and without being bound by anyone else's laws
19:11:15 <pikhq> alise: You'd set up a private corporation to be connected to said tier-1.
19:11:18 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: That doesn't sound awfully legal.
19:11:36 <pikhq> Sadly, you'd have to be *involved* with another nation to be connected.
19:11:38 <alise> pikhq: A private corporation in the Fair Dictatorial Democracy of Data Haven, yes.
19:11:45 <alise> How did Sealand do it?
19:12:24 <Phantom_Hoover_> You could host on the Moon, so everyone would be able to connect for half the month.
19:12:39 <pikhq> They purchased a wireless link through the UK.
19:12:51 <alise> pikhq: And ... how did that let them host illegal shit, again?
19:13:07 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: Or a REALLY POWERFUL LASER.
19:13:11 <pikhq> alise: It was perfectly legal for the server to be hosting stuff where they operated.
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19:13:16 <alise> Lightspeed Communications, Inc.
19:13:31 <alise> pikhq: But how would they transmit the material to anyone else legally?
19:13:40 <pikhq> alise: What's actually on the pipes is not regulated.
19:13:51 <alise> pikhq: Oh. Why didn't you tell me?
19:13:55 <Phantom_Hoover_> OTOH it would be unusable on a cloudy day if the laser was optical.
19:14:03 <alise> pikhq: Are you just saying that no country would want to do business with such a happy-go-lucky country?
19:14:18 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: Okay: MICROWAVES
19:14:22 <pikhq> alise: Not necessarily, actually...
19:14:22 <alise> Hot Hot Communications, Inc.
19:14:28 <alise> pikhq: See, this is PRACTICAL!
19:15:11 <alise> Antarctica conditions are shitty.
19:15:20 <alise> No technician is going to wear those clothes.
19:15:42 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: I wonder what the nearest first-world country is to the area.
19:15:53 <alise> I doubt Egypt has a fast internet link.
19:16:13 <Phantom_Hoover_> Well, for the Moon you're going to have pretty high latency.
19:16:29 <alise> Meanwhile, pikhq! Inject some non-Moon-related facts into this discussion.
19:17:01 <pikhq> alise: Your major problem here is that Bir Tawil is landlocked.
19:17:23 <pikhq> Thus, you'd have to go through Egypt or Sudan...
19:17:31 <alise> pikhq: Good point.
19:17:36 <alise> Not the friendliest countries.
19:17:39 <pikhq> Rather than, say, having a link to Europe.
19:17:44 <alise> Or the countries with the fastest interweb.
19:17:58 <alise> pikhq: But is Antarctica really practical?
19:18:03 <pikhq> (Northern Africa. Linking to Europe is *practical*.)
19:18:05 <alise> I mean, those conditions are *shitty*.
19:18:11 <alise> You'd need a /heated/ data centre!
19:18:13 <pikhq> alise: Not especially.
19:18:37 <pikhq> Well, maybe *right* on a coast.
19:18:53 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: They probably wouldn't RUN on speeds that slow.
19:19:00 <alise> pikhq: If you can link to Argentina, then yeah, there's a place right on the coast.
19:19:01 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
19:19:14 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: Erm. Temperatures.
19:19:16 <pikhq> alise: Actually. Servers run *better* when cold.
19:19:30 <alise> The components would get icy! :P
19:19:36 <pikhq> Some people have used liquid nitrogen cooling.
19:19:51 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0a/Argentina_(orthographic_projection).svg <-- am I right in thinking that you could just pick the bit next to the light green and then link to argentina, dark green?
19:19:56 <alise> or are those claimed by someone else?
19:20:08 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: Well, okay, it's just a sort of "wtf that can't work" thing.
19:20:16 <alise> "Antarctica is considered a desert"
19:20:26 <pikhq> alise: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Antarctica.jpg
19:20:35 <pikhq> Seems Argentina has claimed it.
19:20:43 <alise> pikhq: there's a bit argentina hasn't though
19:20:48 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0a/Argentina_(orthographic_projection).svg
19:20:55 <alise> the green is the bit argentina hasn't claimed.
19:21:03 <alise> the green is the bit it has claimed
19:21:08 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: yeah, but undersea cables are long anyway
19:21:12 <alise> Of course our biggest problem
19:21:26 <Phantom_Hoover_> Well, they couldn't run through any of those sectors that have been claimed.
19:21:29 <alise> is that this kind of expensive anything-but-child-pr0n hosting has a world market of maybe
19:21:37 <alise> and this infrastructure is expensive as shit
19:21:53 <alise> therefore i propose we just take that african land and found an anarcho-syndicalist commune
19:22:14 <Phantom_Hoover_> Given that not even Egypt and Sudan want it, that seems a bit impractical.
19:22:37 <alise> erm, it doesn't look inhospitable.
19:23:01 <pikhq> Just horribly unwanted.
19:23:09 <alise> its name means "water well", quite a promising name :P
19:23:21 <alise> is there a list of unclaimed lands?
19:23:25 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover_: Moon is good. Moon is great. Moon requires more resources than nations are willing to dump into it.
19:23:35 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_nullius
19:23:52 <alise> http://cstart.org/
19:24:06 <Phantom_Hoover_> We just need a server, a laser, a receiver and a maintenance robot!
19:24:09 <alise> (it's a bunch of talentless reddit guys convinced they can get to the moon using THE VAST COMMUNE OF MODERN SCIENTIFIC KNOWLEDGE)
19:24:19 <alise> but hey, they have a logo! they're as good as there.
19:24:34 <alise> latency to the moon sucks
19:24:49 <pikhq> alise: Better than Mars.
19:25:04 <alise> pikhq: BETTER THAN ANDROMEDA
19:25:16 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: But LIGHTSPEED BANDWIDTH
19:25:19 <pikhq> Yeah... The Moon is at least close enough for TCP/IP to *work*.
19:25:37 <alise> TCP/IP/FUCKING HUGE LASER
19:25:50 * Phantom_Hoover_ remembers the bit in "The Cuckoo's Egg" where Stoll concluded that the hacker lived on the moon.
19:25:56 <pikhq> Actually, technically everything is, you just need to set your allowed latencies way the hell up.
19:26:27 <alise> wait wait how do we do the sends
19:26:33 <alise> ANOTHER GIANT FUCKING LASER TRANSMITTER
19:26:35 <alise> POINTED AT THE MOON
19:27:05 <alise> IF YOU PUT YOUR HAND IN FRONT OF THE RECEIVER OR TRANSMITTER
19:27:28 <alise> DESTROY ALL CLOUDS WITH LASERS
19:27:46 <alise> pikhq: http://pastie.org/1108197.txt?key=y7rbmbtn18uwnshgbd8za Please make this code suck less. Thank you.
19:27:51 <alise> pikhq: Also, make it work.
19:28:20 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: NOT VISIBLE
19:28:36 <pikhq> It gets rid of clouds and pesky biologicals, too!
19:29:13 <pikhq> alise: Insufficiently functional.
19:29:32 <alise> pikhq: Yeah, but I'm using an insufficiently cool language to keep me sufficiently able to code simple plugins.
19:29:55 <alise> pikhq: In an ideal world, it'd be written in whatever my damn language is called.
19:30:02 <alise> Which has super-asynchronous continuation process functional power!
19:30:11 <alise> And IRC is INTERTWINGLED BETWIXT everything else, dude.
19:30:17 <alise> Responses to WHOISes by continuations!
19:30:22 <alise> NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND.
19:33:13 <alise> pikhq: Your BROTHA.
19:33:36 <alise> But that'll piss off Eridrianians even more!
19:35:43 <Phantom_Hoover_> And the ability to know the current phase of the moon will become relevant!
19:36:14 <alise> nethack.moon.org will only work at the HARDEST POSSIBLE TIME.
19:36:54 <alise> Put broadcasters on BOTH SIDES.
19:36:59 <alise> This would so work shut up
19:39:21 <oerjan> <alise> NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND. <-- wait you're planning to send them to the moon too?
19:41:31 <alise> I still think a super-semantic continuation-based IRC library would be a rather ridiculously cool idea. If a horrible case of overengineering.
19:41:53 <Phantom_Hoover_> Although the moon in sunlight is very hot, so I'm not sure how we'd keep it cool.
19:42:24 <alise> We could beam cold from earth.
19:42:27 <alise> Or: LIQUID NITROGEN.
19:42:38 <alise> (How hot does it get, anyway?)
19:43:28 <alise> Presumably -233 is not in the day.
19:44:39 <Phantom_Hoover_> Temperature during the day is averaged at 107°, night at -153
19:44:39 <Warrigal> So, Nordic #esoterickers, what universities are you going to?
19:44:53 <alise> He's British. So, yes.
19:44:57 -!- alise has left (?).
19:44:59 -!- alise has joined.
19:45:02 <Warrigal> Gosh, we'd better give that thing an atmosphere.
19:45:15 <alise> Warrigal: fizzie/Deewiant are Aalto guyz (really TKK but whatever)
19:45:18 <alise> oklopol is university of turku
19:45:24 <alise> who cares about anmaster (uppsala i think?)
19:45:31 <olsner> #esoteric University, of course
19:45:40 <Phantom_Hoover_> So we could keep a reservoir of cold during the night, then use that during the day to keep the servers cool.
19:45:40 <Deewiant> Aalto University School of Science and Technology, these days.
19:45:55 <alise> Deewiant: i'll stick to saying TKK when i need to (which is never)
19:46:32 <Deewiant> It's still even officially TKK for short, I think.
19:46:47 <alise> Switzerland's name is so awesome.
19:46:52 <alise> (Confœderatio Helvetica)
19:47:20 <Warrigal> Mmkay, TKK is the Aalto School of Science, Etc., which is presumably part of Aalto University.
19:47:32 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: You got your cause and effect mixed up, buddy.
19:48:09 <alise> In 1960, the typeface's name was changed by Haas' German parent company Stempel to Helvetica (derived from Confoederatio Helvetica, the Latin name for Switzerland) in order to make it more marketable internationally. It was initially suggested that the type be called 'Helvetia' which is the original Latin name for Switzerland. This was ignored by Eduard Hoffmann as he decided it wouldn't be appropriate to name a type after a country. He then decided on 'Hel
19:48:10 <alise> vetica' as this meant 'Swiss' as opposed to 'Switzerland'.
19:48:18 <oerjan> <alise> We could beam cold from earth. <-- in this channel we obey the laws of thermodynamics! not by choice, mind you.
19:49:11 <alise> i am the world's first knitting terrorist
19:49:14 <Warrigal> Huh. Aalto, Turku, and Uppsala are all about the same size.
19:49:25 <Warrigal> Beam cold from Earth. Uh, let me think about how well that would work.
19:49:29 <alise> Warrigal: but only ONE is next to helsinki!
19:49:36 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover_: something lunatic, obviously
19:49:49 <alise> which contains all 3 people in Finland
19:49:54 <alise> 5 or so of whom are in here
19:49:55 <Warrigal> I say it would work about as well as beaming energy from Earth.
19:50:04 <alise> as our Finnology department has discovered
19:50:06 <oerjan> lunatica is a cool name for a font. right?
19:50:15 <alise> oerjan: yes, i'll alias it to Curlz MT
19:50:16 <Warrigal> Yeah, I was wondering, if there are only 3 people in Finland, how come this channel has more than 3 people?
19:50:32 <Vorpal> <alise> who cares about anmaster (uppsala i think?) <-- no?
19:50:44 <Vorpal> I'm nowhere near uppsala
19:50:46 <alise> Vorpal: you said uppsala university before
19:50:58 <alise> Warrigal: this has been covered in depth in prior months (i think a year or so ago even)
19:51:03 <alise> Warrigal: one of them drives the bus, btw
19:51:20 <Vorpal> alise, no I didn't. At most I said I considered it to be interesting to do master studies there
19:51:21 <olsner> what does finland have to do with this channel?
19:51:34 <alise> olsner: there's a lot of you here
19:51:35 <Vorpal> but bachelor I never claimed I'm doing at that university
19:51:39 <fizzie> Also, Helsinki University has more students than the combined might of Aalto; then again, UH is a generalized everything-in-it university, while Aalto is just a amalgamation of three specialized ones (technology, arts, business, in no particular order).
19:51:41 <alise> Vorpal: ok. thought you did
19:51:41 <Warrigal> olsner: it's a mathematical theorem that if this channel is analytic, then everyone in it is Finnish.
19:52:08 <alise> Let's see... Ilari, ineiros, fizzie, Deewiant
19:52:15 <Deewiant> fizzie: Oh, it's still bigger? I hadn't realized that.
19:52:29 <alise> think there used to be one or two more
19:52:51 <fizzie> Deewiant: Source: Wikipedia; but it says 35200 students for UH, 20434 for Aalto. Those other two "we" got were so small, relatively speaking.
19:52:55 <oerjan> Warrigal: i doubt this channel is even measurable, far less analytic
19:52:57 <Warrigal> I should change my nickname to one of those fancy newfangled initial-and-name nicks.
19:53:09 <Warrigal> Like "ehird" and "jcowan" and "rlpowell" and "dons".
19:53:13 <alise> Nordic, etc.: MigoMipo, MizardX, oerjan, FireFly, fizzie, Deewiant, ineiros, Ilari, and olsner.
19:53:14 <Deewiant> fizzie: Hmm, by that much, too.
19:53:27 <Warrigal> Except one of those is an initial-and-initial-and-name nick and another is a name-and-initial nick.
19:53:33 <fizzie> Deewiant: Surely some sort of land-grab war would be in order.
19:53:34 <alise> Deewiant: well he never comes here any more, but yeah
19:53:54 <alise> Warrigal: They're rubbish unless you have the right name.
19:54:02 <alise> Initials are great if you can pull it off.
19:54:11 <Warrigal> "tswett" is a rather dubious name.
19:54:20 <alise> actually i think there's a ts on freenode already
19:54:35 <alise> * ts :Nickname is already in use.
19:54:44 <alise> * [ts] (~ts@bzflag/developer/ts): Thomas Stauer
19:54:45 <Warrigal> See? It's so short that it's in use.
19:54:52 <alise> Warrigal: tanners!
19:55:01 -!- alise has changed nick to tanners.
19:55:04 <Warrigal> I guess his claim to that nick is as good as mine.
19:55:17 <Vorpal> <Warrigal> Oh, AnMaster is in disguise. <-- you change nick too...
19:55:28 -!- tanners has changed nick to swett.
19:55:34 <swett> Warrigal: Here you go.
19:55:55 <Warrigal> The only nick I'm actually considering is tswett, so if you want to take what I want from me, register that one.
19:55:59 -!- swett has changed nick to tswett.
19:56:02 <tswett> But this one is awful.
19:56:03 -!- derdon has joined.
19:56:09 <Vorpal> Warrigal, I did it once
19:56:13 <Vorpal> Warrigal, so not often either!
19:56:15 * Sgeo would be very reluctant to nickchange to, say, sgold
19:56:18 <tswett> I don't want to take it, I just want to extort a ludicrous price out of you for it.
19:56:27 <tswett> Sgeo: and Sgeo_who_is_Seth_Gold would be EVEN WORSE!
19:56:40 <Warrigal> I'm hoping that you'll take it so that I can sue you.
19:56:40 <fizzie> Also fungot, 'es Finnish! In the "place of residence" sense, at least, even if not the nationality one.
19:56:41 <fungot> fizzie: so please suggest a male name that starts with a small bootable linux distro, i have
19:56:48 <Sgeo> Especially since it's probably too long
19:56:49 <tswett> Warrigal: Yes, IRC Law.
19:56:51 <tswett> fizzie: I said (fungot).
19:56:52 <fungot> tswett: the guy who ircs from a phone was to use ffmpeg to generate a new name, now?
19:57:11 <fizzie> A male name that starts with a bootable Linux distro sounds awesome, too.
19:57:16 <tswett> Warrigal: Use ffmpeg to generate a new name.
19:57:22 <tswett> Warrigal: Only if you IRC from a phone though.
19:57:40 <tswett> fizzie: So who's fungot's mother?
19:57:40 <fungot> tswett: sisc, chicken, fnord supports keywords are indexes in terms, but you do need eof)
19:57:49 <tswett> Ah, Scheme implementations are.
19:57:53 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
19:57:58 <Warrigal> Mmkay, move over. The nick envy is setting in.
19:58:10 <tswett> but this name sucks :-P
19:58:18 <Warrigal> Precisely. Why do you want it? :P
19:58:28 <SgeoN1> Great, now to figure out how to use ffmpeg as an rng
19:58:34 <tswett> Because I think there is a very slight chance that I can either get a tiny bit of money from you for it, or amuse myself trying to.
19:58:42 <tswett> Also, because I know you know I'll give up very quickly.
19:58:53 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has changed nick to Vonlebio.
19:59:01 <tswett> Quick! Let's assume other people's nicks!
19:59:47 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to alisenot.
20:00:03 * pikhq would prefer to just note that most people's idea of ROM organisation sucks ass
20:00:09 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
20:00:12 * alisenot would feel very, very weird actually stealing someone's nick
20:00:30 -!- Vonlebio has changed nick to Sgeo.
20:00:33 <pikhq> "Hmm, let's archive each and every bad, broken dump!" "Aaaawesome!"
20:00:45 <alisenot> I could just ghost you, you know
20:00:48 <pikhq> "And each and every ROM hack, no matter how juvenile!" "Aaaawesome!"
20:01:03 <alisenot> ...actually, I don't know my Freenode password off the top of my head
20:01:16 <olsner> pikhq: your note has been noted
20:01:31 <tswett> pikhq: olsner: nickswap
20:01:37 <tswett> pikhq: you do /nick notpikhq
20:01:40 <tswett> olsner: you do /nick pikhq
20:01:44 <tswett> pikhq: you do /nick olsner
20:01:52 -!- alisenot has changed nick to alise.
20:01:56 -!- pikhq has changed nick to pikhq_.
20:01:58 -!- alise has quit (Disconnected by services).
20:02:03 <tswett> Too tempting to resist.
20:02:08 -!- tswett has changed nick to alise.
20:02:15 <alise> Warrigal: You win! Have your crappy nick!
20:02:18 -!- Warrigal has changed nick to tswett.
20:02:25 <alise> OOPS I REGISTERED IT LOL
20:02:32 <alise> (Actually I didn't, but I totally should have.)
20:02:32 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq.
20:02:33 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
20:02:43 <alise> Hi Sgeo_! You disconnected a bit back there.
20:02:45 <alise> What a coincidence.
20:02:45 <Sgeo> I smell funny!
20:03:12 <Sgeo> ActiveWorlds sucks!
20:03:40 * Sgeo_ gets his password in hand
20:03:52 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Vonlebio.
20:03:58 -!- Sgeo_ has changed nick to Sgeo.
20:04:08 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Sgeo_.
20:04:11 <alise> Was gonna /nick Sgeo.
20:04:24 <Sgeo_> And you still can!
20:04:27 -!- alise has changed nick to Sgeo.
20:04:35 <Sgeo> NetHack is for gay people.
20:04:52 <Sgeo> I founded SGEOWIKI! But everyone else wrote all the articles.
20:04:55 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to alise.
20:04:58 -!- alise has changed nick to alise_.
20:05:07 <alise_> Feel free to get pointless, pointless revenge!
20:05:22 -!- Sgeo_ has changed nick to alise.
20:05:31 -!- alise has quit (Disconnected by services).
20:05:35 <Vonlebio> WON'T SOMEBODY THINK OF THE CHILDREN
20:06:09 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
20:06:27 <alise_> Well, you /did/ do it.
20:07:06 -!- tswett has left (?).
20:12:02 -!- alise_ has changed nick to alise.
20:13:28 <Vonlebio> YOU CANNOT HARM ME EVIL LORD ALISE
20:13:42 <alise> The battle was not against you.
20:16:15 * oerjan thinks a person with the name Vonlebio shouldn't go around accusing other people of being evil lord
20:17:34 <oerjan> it's a very evil overlord name
20:17:56 <Vonlebio> I'll have you know that it's SHAKESPEREAN
20:18:33 <fungot> Vonlebio: well, i'm only back in denmark because my work visa expired. please insert token to continue.
20:18:45 <alise> `addquote <fungot> Vonlebio: well, i'm only back in denmark because my work visa expired. please insert token to continue.
20:18:46 <fungot> alise: either the way, my program was buggy and i preferred to -i?!)
20:19:01 <HackEgo> 217|<fungot> Vonlebio: well, i'm only back in denmark because my work visa expired. please insert token to continue.
20:19:12 <HackEgo> 164|<DoctorDog> I am an inherently pornographic being.
20:19:13 <oerjan> if it were shakespearean i would imagine google would give more than 1 hit for it.
20:19:31 <alise> that one hit is probably Vonlebio himself.
20:20:11 * oerjan tried putting a space between von and lebio, it didn't really help
20:20:18 <Vonlebio> `addquote * oerjan thinks a person with the name Vonlebio shouldn't go around accusing other people of being evil lord
20:20:20 <HackEgo> 218|* oerjan thinks a person with the name Vonlebio shouldn't go around accusing other people of being evil lord
20:20:30 <HackEgo> 72|<ehird> ignore me, i'm full of bullshit
20:20:32 <alise> that's not a very good quote :p
20:20:34 <HackEgo> 129|<MissPiggy> bi is like sqrt(2)/2 * straight + i * sqrt(2)/2 * gay
20:20:49 <HackEgo> 12|<Madelon> Lil`Cube: you had cavity searches? <Lil`Cube> not yet <Lil`Cube> trying to thou, just so I can check it off on my list of things to expirence
20:21:02 <alise> huh actually /me can't think how to generate anagrams nicely in haskell
20:21:19 <HackEgo> 218|* oerjan thinks a person with the name Vonlebio shouldn't go around accusing other people of being evil lord
20:21:23 <alise> was thinking a list comprehension might help
20:21:29 <HackEgo> 218|* oerjan thinks a person with the name Vonlebio shouldn't go around accusing other people of being evil lord
20:21:34 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
20:21:41 * alise looks at revision history
20:21:52 <HackEgo> 218|* oerjan thinks a person with the name Vonlebio shouldn't go around accusing other people of being evil lord
20:21:59 <alise> that should be impossible
20:22:29 <HackEgo> 6|<Keiya> I think the freemasons are actually a cover for homosexual men.
20:22:49 <HackEgo> 216|<fungot> alise: so parrot was based around gcc?
20:22:50 <alise> `addquote <fungot> Vonlebio: well, i'm only back in denmark because my work visa expired. please insert token to continue.
20:22:51 <fungot> alise: reminds me of the cartoon character? :) and do you answer yourself? this isnt some kind of spacetime rift thingy which is in pure ansi c))
20:22:53 <HackEgo> 217|<fungot> Vonlebio: well, i'm only back in denmark because my work visa expired. please insert token to continue.
20:24:45 <oerjan> !haskell import Data.List; ana [] = [[]]; ana l = [x:xs | (pre, x:aft) <- zip (inits l) (tails l), xs <- ana (pre++aft)]; main = print $ ana "thus"
20:24:54 <EgoBot> ["thus","thsu","tuhs","tush","tshu","tsuh","htus","htsu","huts","hust","hstu","hsut","uths","utsh","uhts","uhst","usth","usht","sthu","stuh","shtu","shut","suth","suht"]
20:25:12 <alise> oerjan: sheesh, is that the shortest it can get?
20:29:40 <alise> <cpressey> Never ever use a quote which contains both the words "aloofness" and "gel" (verb).
20:31:19 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
20:31:30 <alise> zeotrope: YOU DON'T NEED IT IT IS INFERIOR TO BOTTE
20:31:37 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
20:31:49 <alise> 4 weeksHackBot<AnMaster> fuck
20:31:50 <alise> 4 weeksHackBot<Gregor> fuck
20:31:50 <alise> 4 weeksHackBot<Gregor> fuck
20:31:50 <alise> 4 weeksHackBot<Aftran> fuck
20:31:50 <alise> 4 weeksHackBot<Aftran> fuck
20:33:09 <oerjan> !haskell import Data.List; ana [] = [[]]; ana l = [x:xs | x <- l, xs <- ana (delete x l)]; main = print $ ana "test"
20:33:11 <EgoBot> ["test","tets","tset","tste","ttes","ttse","etst","etts","estt","estt","etst","etts","stet","stte","sett","sett","stet","stte","test","tets","tset","tste","ttes","ttse"]
20:33:30 <alise> oerjan: hmm does delete only delete one?
20:33:36 <alise> Vorpal: from the hackego command logs
20:33:42 <alise> " 1.1 Binary file babies/babies.db has changed"
20:33:48 <alise> Apparently !fuck changed babies/babies.db.
20:33:57 <Vorpal> alise, eh I seldom say "fuck" on it's own like that, seems unlikely
20:33:58 <alise> You shouldn't do that kind of thing in public, Vorpal.
20:34:02 <alise> Vorpal: that's because you said !fuck
20:34:11 <alise> it's <foo> commandname ...
20:34:11 <oerjan> !haskell import Data.List; ana [] = [[]]; ana l = [x:xs | x <- nub l, xs <- ana (delete x l)]; main = print $ ana "test"
20:34:14 <EgoBot> ["test","tets","tset","tste","ttes","ttse","etst","etts","estt","stet","stte","sett"]
20:34:14 <Vorpal> alise, oh right, that thing he was playing around with
20:34:26 <alise> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/rev/b2166a5a1366
20:34:34 <HackEgo> Congratulations! alise's action has brought a beautiful new baby into the world. Isn't it adorable?
20:35:29 <HackEgo> Congratulations! olsner's action has brought a beautiful new baby into the world. Isn't it adorable?
20:35:33 <HackEgo> alise's first child now has a little brother or sister! Aren't they so cute together?
20:36:06 <alise> <oklopol> but yeah i'm not exactly comfortable with this stuff, to me it seems like if you can unscrew lightbulbs, why couldn't you see into the future, or through walls as well
20:36:32 <Sgeo_> Oh come on, 7 and more is boring
20:36:56 <alise> Oh, orgy opinions?
20:37:23 <alise> By the time there's 7, there's gonna be enough space usage that it's effectively two smaller orgies with occasional diplomatic relations :P
20:38:24 <olsner> ooh, command-line sqlite, looks like a really convenient way to make a database
20:38:45 <alise> olsner: my friends, echo, sed, grep and awk
20:38:48 <alise> let me introduce you to them
20:39:21 <HackEgo> alise now has a third child! Congratulations! Surely that's enough though, right?
20:39:47 <olsner> alise: yeah, I know of them... let's just say sqlite looks like a very useful friend to also have :)
20:40:05 <alise> olsner: But it can't join in the UNIX plain text file orgy.
20:40:13 <olsner> bah, backtick is gruesome, takes three keypresses in swedish
20:40:15 <alise> Which is the most hacked-together yet surprisingly functional orgy ever.
20:40:26 <HackEgo> olsner just had a SIXTH baby! Wow! Don't you think it's about time to get an operation to put a stop to all this?
20:40:29 <alise> olsner: yeah but you guys do have a retarded alphabet
20:40:35 <HackEgo> /tmp/hackenv.13953/bin/fuck
20:40:37 <alise> wait, how did you get six
20:40:51 <HackEgo> alise just had a fourth baby. Even though the child support payments are starting to add up, and alise really doesn't earn enough money for this, it's still a beautiful sight.
20:40:52 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ if [ ! -e babies/babies.db ] \ then \ mkdir -p babies \ sqlite3 babies/babies.db 'CREATE TABLE babies(parent STRING PRIMARY KEY, count INTEGER);' \ fi \ \ # Update the count \ CURCOUNT=`sqlite3 babies/babies.db 'SELECT count FROM babies WHERE parent = '\'"$IRC_NICK"\'';'` \ NEWCOUNT=$(( CURCOUNT + 1 )) \ if [
20:41:05 <HackEgo> You would think that four is enough, but alise's libido is entirely unstoppable. With five children, the weight of parenthood is starting to weigh down on alise's life. Sorry buddies, I can't hang out today, I have to clean puke off the rug.
20:41:08 <olsner> the alphabet is not retarded, it just has three additional letters... it's the keyboard layout
20:41:11 <alise> I AM CONTRIBUTING TO OVERPOPULATION
20:41:16 <HackEgo> alise just had a SIXTH baby! Wow! Don't you think it's about time to get an operation to put a stop to all this?
20:41:21 <HackEgo> alise's 7th child has just been born! Awwwwww.
20:41:28 <Sgeo_> It just gets boring .. right
20:41:29 <alise> Sgeo_: Oh, you meant seven or more babies.
20:41:33 <alise> Not seven or more orgy participants.
20:41:39 <alise> I totally misinterpreted you!
20:41:47 <olsner> for some reason it's made to support the accented letters of *every* european language
20:41:58 <alise> olsner: Because you're HIPPIE COMMUNISTIC EUROFAGS.
20:42:19 <olsner> grave and acute accent, circumflex, tilde, double-dots -- all as dead keys
20:42:38 <Sgeo_> Now I know how you interpreted it, I can try to understand what you meant
20:45:09 <oerjan> now whatever you do, don't mix the interpretations.
20:45:25 <alise> oerjan: ORGY BABIES
20:45:59 <oerjan> alise: YOU'VE DOOMED US ALL
20:47:20 -!- cheater99 has joined.
20:49:04 -!- augur has joined.
20:58:47 <alise> Sgeo_: quick! what's the recommended way to do mutually dependent modules in python?
20:58:57 <alise> haha only kidding you're NOT ALLOWED TO
20:59:34 <alise> i mean technically you can
20:59:36 <alise> but it's really brittle
20:59:51 <alise> from foo import bar
21:00:02 <alise> from bar import blah
21:00:50 <Sgeo_> "She didn't answer, save for a soft smile. Their eyes locked, and Sokka caught a slightly doe-eyed look on his sister face that he never, ever, ever, ever, ever wanted to see directed at anyone much less himself."
21:01:13 <alise> olsner: Random person! The IRC connection-mediator-thingy IRCClient should really be the one that parses lines, shouldn't it, not the Context (the "fully parsed" version, with field names depending on command, methods to reply to the right place, etc.) class?!
21:01:32 -!- SgeoN2 has joined.
21:01:50 <alise> Sgeo_: Ever, erver, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever,
21:02:59 <olsner> alise: sounds like you know what you're talking about, and I don't
21:03:13 <alise> olsner: No, I honestly don't. I'm just trying to get an opinion.
21:03:36 <olsner> the parser of lines should obviously be independent of both
21:03:50 <alise> olsner: the parser is a very few lines
21:04:04 <alise> besides, shouldn't irc.py contain the IRC parser, not context.py? :P
21:04:06 <alise> really it should be client.py.
21:04:08 <alise> I should make it client.py.
21:04:43 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
21:10:16 <Sgeo_> DIE DIE DIE SgeoN1!
21:15:44 <alise> olsner: i /think/ the client should do the parsing actually
21:15:54 <alise> since it has fancy methods like .say(channel, 'blah')
21:16:00 <alise> so obviously it already does some irc translation
21:16:17 <alise> the problem is i have to come up with a structure to represent the parsing :) no wait i don't i can use context! yay!
21:17:55 * olsner seems to be doing well as the rubber duck
21:18:15 <alise> olsner: you can't buy amusing swedish rubber ducks!
21:18:25 <alise> anmaster is proof of this
21:19:54 <alise> olsner: Except, of course, that IRCClients don't know about the big bad Bot that puts them together, but Context needs the bot so that handlers can use it.
21:20:00 <alise> Yet IRCClients construct the Context.
21:21:19 <alise> olsner: I mean, I /could/ pass a reference to the Bot to the IRCClient, but the IRCClient has no reason to know i-- yes it DOES
21:21:26 <alise> Because it passes the Context on to the bot to handle it
21:21:35 <alise> You're the best, olsner, you know that?
21:22:15 <olsner> no, I don't know that :)
21:23:21 <Vorpal> <alise> olsner: you can't buy amusing swedish rubber ducks! <alise> anmaster is proof of this <-- err?
21:23:40 <alise> Vorpal: You're a Swedish rubber duck. You are not amusing.
21:23:42 <alise> Quod erat demonstrandum.
21:23:47 <alise> olsner: You do now!
21:23:57 <Vorpal> alise, but why do you think I'm a rubber duck?
21:24:04 <alise> Well, only rubber ducks are that dumb.
21:24:30 <alise> olsner: You fixed my architecture without saying a word!
21:24:46 <Vorpal> alise, it's a little known fact but rubber ducks are in fact highly intelligent, with an average IQ of 420
21:24:52 <Vorpal> not that IQ means much
21:25:12 <Vonlebio> And not that 420 is even a meaningful IQ.
21:25:22 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
21:25:38 <alise> DUCKS: Constantly stoned, and CONSTANTLY INTELLECTUAL.
21:25:56 <alise> When they're not smoking pot, their IQ is actually -83; just high enough to light up the next one.
21:26:03 <Vonlebio> Incidentally, random idea: Brainfuck compiler in Coq, like Compcert (?)
21:26:14 <alise> Vonlebio: It's not exactly hard to certify a Brainfuck compiler :P
21:26:46 <alise> Then extract it :P
21:26:50 <Vonlebio> http://www.labri.fr/perso/casteran/CoqArt/firebird.jpg
21:26:56 <alise> Vonlebio: btw, I think an IQ of 420 is theoretically possible
21:26:58 <Vonlebio> I hope like hell that's the real cover.
21:27:10 <Vonlebio> It's theoretically possible in the loosest sense.
21:27:15 <alise> http://www.amazon.com/Interactive-Theorem-Proving-Development-ebook/dp/B000QCUCZU
21:27:17 <alise> well, not this printing
21:27:18 <Vonlebio> It will never, but never, happen.
21:27:19 <alise> but maybe the first printing
21:27:26 <alise> Vonlebio: Post-singularity?
21:27:37 <alise> I don't see why not.
21:27:41 <Vonlebio> IQ is defined based on average intelligence.
21:27:49 <alise> But right after the Singularity.
21:27:52 <alise> Before it's been re-adjusted.
21:28:15 <alise> Or, the combined intelligence counting as one person, and all the billions of dumbfucks on planet Earth left behind.
21:28:26 <Vonlebio> In any case, I still don't think it would be sensible.
21:28:41 <Vonlebio> It would mean absolutely nothing, for one thing.
21:28:57 <alise> It would certainly mean something.
21:29:00 <alise> I don't see how it'd mean nt ohing.
21:29:06 <Vonlebio> "It's incomprehensibly intelligent. 420 IQ."
21:30:09 <Vonlebio> This is even assuming you can *have* an intelligence metric that applies to post-Singularity intellects.
21:30:20 <alise> Uh, just give it one of the standard IQ tests. :-D
21:30:23 <alise> (Yeah, that wouldn't work.)
21:30:27 <alise> (Maximum score and all that jazz.)
21:30:48 <Vonlebio> And of course, you wouldn't be able to calibrate it with the extant data.
21:31:18 <alise> Gahh, I hate cluttery .pyc files.
21:31:20 <alise> They make me want to kill.
21:31:39 <alise> They clutter up directory listings, tab complete, etc.
21:32:10 <olsner> IIRC, you can disable compilation somehow
21:32:12 <Vonlebio> Then just find . -name "*.pyc" | xargs rm every once in a while
21:32:32 <olsner> and/or disable saving the pyc files
21:32:44 <HackEgo> 174|<fungot> [...] i'm a law student so i am loving my bread machine
21:32:53 <alise> olsner: yeah, but ...
21:32:58 <Vonlebio> How many of these quotes are from fungot?
21:32:59 <fungot> Vonlebio: it wouldn't be 120kloc long when i have this plan. thank you!"?
21:33:07 <Sgeo_> Either that's a mistake in this fanfic, or the author realized that Azula wouldn't know that tidbit
21:33:07 <alise> blame me (and a few others)
21:33:10 <alise> not that many actually
21:33:27 <Sgeo_> normish used to have a thing that listed the quotes
21:33:28 <alise> Sgeo_: Are you just doing this so we ask you what the hell you're talking about?
21:33:34 <HackEgo> 125|Note that quote number 124 is not actually true.
21:33:47 <Sgeo_> alise, clearly I'm talking about a fanfic
21:33:49 <HackEgo> 89|<Sgeo> What else is there to vim besides editing commands?
21:34:12 <alise> Sgeo_: Yes, but you seem to have absolutely no reason to talk about it here except to provoke us to ask questions. I will not be corrupted. :p
21:34:17 <Vonlebio> That is... the single most pointless quote yet.
21:34:41 <alise> not hilarious, but funny
21:34:41 <HackEgo> 124|<Warrigal> I cannot eat meat that isn't flat.
21:34:45 <alise> all the quotes are funny, but not hilarious
21:34:58 <fungot> Vonlebio: never mind, i typed 50% faster in dvorak than in qwerty after a while
21:35:00 <alise> Vonlebio: What is there to Windows but files and folders?
21:35:11 <olsner> no, it's not funny to me, it's just a fairly obvious observation about the nature of vim?
21:35:15 <alise> What is there to programming apart from drawing interfaces?
21:35:31 <alise> olsner: the context made it a bit clearer
21:35:41 <alise> Sgeo_ was treating vim like it was olde-style vi with barely any commands
21:37:13 <HackEgo> 182|<Quas_NaArt> Because you're a Mac user. <lacota> I am! and proud of it to <lacota> My mouse has *no* buttons.
21:37:30 <HackEgo> 208|* Phantom_Hoover sticks crayons in his nose
21:37:35 <HackEgo> 212|<ais523> it was too difficult
21:37:40 <HackEgo> 60|<Sgeo> Mafia's addictin
21:37:44 <HackEgo> 194|<ais523> cpressey: I have actually done a waterfall-model project that almost worked <cpressey> That's where you have a flexible kayak that bobs and weaves between the rocks as it plummets off the cliff
21:39:47 <HackEgo> 147|<ais523> (still, whatever possessed anyone to invent the N-Gage?)
21:39:52 <HackEgo> 80|<Warrigal> I think hamsters cannot be inert.
21:39:55 <HackEgo> 168|<pikhq> And... WTF is it doing. <pikhq> :( <Sgeo_> Is it sexing?
21:40:03 <HackEgo> 24|<oerjan> ehird has gone insane, clearly.
21:40:07 <HackEgo> 62|<ehird> With enough crappiness a display can show you invisible pink unicorns.
21:40:11 <HackEgo> 130|<virtuhird> Sgeo_: Gregorr: and someone could, by mistake, rewrite psox to be a weak erection if it is... A filename.
21:40:17 -!- aschueler has joined.
21:40:18 <alise> virtuhird is my favourite
21:40:22 <HackEgo> 163|<fungot> alise: why internet is like wtf
21:40:27 <HackEgo> 94|* oerjan swats FireFly since he's easier to hit -----### <FireFly> Meh * FireFly dies
21:41:15 <HackEgo> 47|<augur> augur: pretty true.
21:41:18 <HackEgo> 166|<oklopol> you move on the tape and shit
21:41:22 <HackEgo> 133|<apollo> (is it every teen girl's dream to be ravaged by a mythical beast? Does this explain the affection for unicorns?)
21:41:26 <HackEgo> 185|<AnMaster> oerjan, can you ever get any number higher than 3 at the start of "ordinary" [look-and-say sequences]? <ais523> it's not clear from the RFCs
21:41:31 <HackEgo> 36|<Deewiant> ehird: There is no h in "honour"
21:42:24 <HackEgo> 206|<nooga> i think of languages as tools, there is no holy grail of languages <olsner> even if there's no holy grail, that doesn't mean cups of crap is ok
21:42:34 <alise> olsner: QUOTED IN HACKEGO, RESOLVER OF ARCHITECTURES
21:42:39 <HackEgo> 25|`quote 48|<oklopol> i can get an erection out of a plank, you can quote me on that. 123|[Warrigal] `addquote <Dylan> hahaha, Lawlabee is running windows <Lawlabee> 'cuz it's pretty awesome. [Lawlabee] Warrigal: :( 125|Note that quote number 124 is not actually true. 139|<ais523> let's put that in the HackEgo quotes
21:42:45 <Vorpal> can we skip this spam please
21:42:49 <Vorpal> take it to /msg with the bot
21:43:04 <alise> Vonlebio: because it's fun annoying you
21:43:14 <Sgeo_> http://www.fanfiction.net/s/4302297/1/In_His_Shoes
21:43:32 <alise> Sgeo_: I can barely contain my excitement.
21:44:08 <alise> Nobody can contain their excitement any more than barely!
21:45:27 <Quadrescence> alise: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKj7tX_nMHQ
21:45:44 <Vonlebio> Why is sgeo linking to random fanfics?
21:46:05 <alise> Quadrescence: Yes, yes, you have the shitty Mac-based Lisp Machine.
21:46:11 <alise> COME BACK WHEN YOU HAVE A REAL LISPM.
21:46:49 <Quadrescence> the chip is faster than all other lispms except the XL
21:47:05 <alise> but the whole /point/ of buying a lisp machine is sticking a middle finger up at every conventional computer in usage
21:47:10 <alise> and even old macs are conventional
21:47:32 <Sgeo_> Does a modern lispm exist?
21:47:34 <Vonlebio> So the Lisp86 OS wouldn't be a true LispM?
21:47:43 <alise> not a lisp /machine/.
21:47:52 <alise> Sgeo_: only plans and designs.
21:48:00 <alise> the reduceron is a modern graph-reducer (for haskell)
21:48:07 <alise> random people. nothing very concrete
21:48:35 <Quadrescence> alise: I'd rather have this then paying 1000 shipping for something that is maybe 500 lbs
21:48:35 <Vonlebio> Why are the cool things abandoned?
21:48:55 <alise> Quadrescence: ehhh the old ones aren't that heavy are they
21:48:57 <alise> the really slow ones
21:49:04 <Vonlebio> Irritating people who go on about design patterns and OO?
21:49:04 <alise> Vonlebio: sturgeon's law must be upheld
21:49:09 <pikhq> Vonlebio: Because making money is not cool.
21:49:22 <alise> pikhq: you mean cool is not making money :P
21:49:38 <Quadrescence> alise: if you get a tower, then you must get a monitor and keyboard
21:49:44 <alise> Quadrescence: bah!
21:49:59 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
21:50:07 <Vonlebio> "I am far too noble a soul to care about money, but various crass and vulgar people insist upon it in return for goods and services" — Asimov (paraphrased)
21:50:09 <alise> Quadrescence: stanislav was, at one point, working on an adapter to use it with a regular lcd/mouse
21:50:59 <Quadrescence> On top of all that, there's no guarantee any of it work actually work: http://cgi.ebay.com/310236995571
21:51:09 <alise> Quadrescence: yeah, so buy a new one
21:51:33 <Quadrescence> alise: there isn't exactly a saturated supply of them
21:51:38 <alise> Quadrescence: yes there is
21:51:54 <alise> Quadrescence: http://www.lispmachine.net/symbolics.txt
21:52:05 <Quadrescence> I know; I've talked to him over the past 1.5 years
21:52:14 <alise> well, it's not like there's a huge demand.
21:52:21 <alise> and i'd say one from him is guaranteed to work
21:52:51 -!- SgeoN2 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
21:52:54 <alise> that hardly applies to me, i'm not even in the US :-P
21:53:49 <Quadrescence> alise: I think shipping is $150 too for *just* the tower
21:54:01 <alise> well if you don't want to waste money why buy a lispm :)
21:54:04 <pikhq> How... Fortuitous.
21:54:12 <pikhq> 缶 is Japanese for "can".
21:54:21 <alise> Yes, that's so... fortuitous?
21:54:38 <pikhq> s/fortuitous/coincidental/
21:54:47 <Quadrescence> if I don't want to waste money, why buy a lispm?
21:54:48 <alise> pikhq: But how is that even ... ?
21:55:00 <pikhq> alise: "can", the container.
21:55:18 <pikhq> alise: It just happens to be "kan" in Japanese.
21:57:35 <pikhq> oerjan: Not Engrish.
21:57:57 * oerjan has read that japanese for "so" is "so"
21:58:30 <alise> what does [M] in xchat's title mean?
21:59:08 * oerjan now waits for pikhq to explain how that's all misspelled, and only vaguely true. oerjan decides to finish this line even though it's half happened already.
21:59:25 <Vonlebio> OK, why has Proofgeneral's indentation behaviour changed all of a sudden?
21:59:32 <alise> Vonlebio: it's a bit screwy sometimes.
21:59:36 <pikhq> oerjan: Eh; the only misspelling was an ommision of all indications of vowel length.
22:00:05 <pikhq> And it's more than vaguely true. It has slightly different nuance, but it *is* "so".
22:00:16 * alise wonders how to handle capitalisation of karma
22:00:26 <alise> if someone says "PIKHQ++" the first time, should you be forever told that "PIKHQ has 3 karma"?
22:00:34 <alise> is getting from nicks practical, since they might be gone?
22:00:43 <alise> what about just lowercasing? how will Phantom_Hover feel about that
22:01:07 -!- augur has joined.
22:01:08 <coppro> alise: base it off the most recently seen capitalization?
22:01:12 <pikhq> That is pretty much *precisely* "So, what?"
22:01:14 <Vonlebio> alise, why would I feel about lowercasing?
22:01:42 <alise> Vonlebio: because "phantom_hoover"
22:01:51 <alise> coppro: seen? as in used to increase karma?
22:01:55 <alise> coppro: hmm, good idea, thanks
22:02:14 <pikhq> This is entirely coincidence.
22:02:18 <alise> coppro: if you do ".karma foo" it'll give back "foo has karma ..."
22:02:32 <pikhq> "Sou" is just one of the systematically-formed demonstratives in Japanese.
22:02:33 <alise> so basically all i need to do is echo the user
22:02:34 <alise> and store it lowercased
22:02:45 <alise> ooh, i need an @on_command now
22:04:43 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:04:44 <oerjan> with all those annotations it'll look like moo code...
22:05:09 -!- olsner has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:05:34 <alise> yeah i really am a cow
22:05:37 <Vonlebio> I demand that £ be used for botte comands.
22:05:42 <alise> Vonlebio: actually, .
22:05:50 <alise> although some commands are verbal
22:05:57 <alise> botte: botte has a fear of introspection
22:06:06 <alise> <botte> botte has a fear of introspection
22:06:08 <alise> Vonlebio: no, all . :P
22:06:22 <alise> Vonlebio: all are "."
22:09:34 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:10:06 <alise> (i'd support multi-word karmas but i'm far too lazy ha ha ha)++
22:10:35 <alise> the plural of karma is karmæ
22:11:40 <alise> Vonlebio: just record meaningless, adjustable numbers
22:11:46 <alise> .karma Vonlebio -> 1
22:11:54 <alise> .karma Vonlebio -> -1
22:12:34 <Vonlebio> How does Coq deal with really really big nats?
22:13:41 <Vonlebio> I mean, for 1000000 does it actually create (S *1000000 0)?
22:13:43 <alise> (There are other number structures)
22:13:50 <alise> (there is a binary Z iirc)
22:13:54 <alise> (maybe a binary N too)
22:13:59 <alise> i know there's a binary z
22:14:01 <alise> may not be a binary n
22:15:52 <oerjan> Coq is based on a tiny kernel on purpose, surely they cannot afford to special case that.
22:17:02 <Sgeo_> Stupid unfinished fanfic!
22:18:02 <alise> oerjan: yeah, exactly
22:18:06 <Vonlebio> Well, they do, to some degree.
22:18:08 <alise> Vonlebio: look at the binary Z
22:18:29 <Vonlebio> "Warning: Stack overflow or segmentation fault happens when working with large
22:18:29 <Vonlebio> numbers in nat (observed threshold may vary from 5000 to 70000 depending on
22:18:29 <Vonlebio> your system limits and on the command executed)."
22:18:55 <Vonlebio> So there is some degree of special-casing.
22:19:13 <alise> how is that special casing
22:19:34 <oerjan> huh? surely that is happening precisely because Nats are _not_ special cased, but treated just like its definition...
22:19:50 <oerjan> which gives you a huge depth of S's
22:19:51 <alise> i think he means the warning is a special case
22:19:55 <alise> which is a bit stupid.
22:20:57 <Vonlebio> Ah, didn't get what you meant by "special case".
22:21:08 <alise> i.e. as part of the actual proof kernel
22:21:13 <alise> which, if it has a single flaw, is disasterous
22:21:32 <alise> agda regularly find bugs in their proof kernel because it's fucking gigantic :)
22:21:48 <alise> whereas coq's has been maturing since the 80s... like fine wine :p
22:26:05 <alise> (and based on a very small kernel)
22:26:54 <Vonlebio> What's Agda's kernel so busy doing?
22:27:05 <alise> a bunch of untested crap
22:27:10 <alise> that they didn't think to layer on
22:30:59 -!- nooga has joined.
22:43:53 <Sgeo_> Chrome can be so hateful sometimes
22:44:06 <Vonlebio> What does a verified compiler even do?
22:44:18 <Vonlebio> Prove that the generated code does what it says it does?
22:44:54 -!- sshc has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:46:38 <augur> send me some links to stuff about coqs proof kernel
22:47:07 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
22:47:16 -!- sshc has joined.
22:52:56 -!- myndzi\ has changed nick to myndzi.
22:56:28 <alise> augur: this is all from my brain
22:56:31 <alise> i don't have any links
22:56:38 <alise> augur: coq's is the calculus of inductive constructions
22:56:45 <alise> epigram 2's is observational type theory (but not with W-types)
22:56:52 <alise> as for the implementation, see the code :P
22:56:55 <alise> <Vonlebio> What does a verified compiler even do?
22:56:55 <alise> <Vonlebio> Prove that the generated code does what it says it does?
22:56:59 <alise> prove that it never compiles incorrectly
22:57:06 <alise> i.e., a given C program always compiles to the right assembly
22:57:12 <alise> i.e., the compiler is proven to compile properly
22:57:27 <alise> which is why compcert is so amazing
22:57:49 <alise> maybe they developed it on macs (it's a bit old)
22:57:59 <alise> maybe the machine code had some desirable property that made it easier
22:58:56 <Vonlebio> A certified BF compiler would actually be impossible, come to think of it.
22:59:06 <Vonlebio> Since it's compiling to a lower CC.
22:59:30 <Vonlebio> So there will always exist some BF program that can't be compiled.
23:00:21 <alise> oh you mean that c is not tc
23:00:40 <alise> Vonlebio: you could certify it as working "if we presume" that pointers have infinite range, though
23:00:46 <alise> which is a reasonable enough, although false, assumption to make
23:00:55 <alise> we're compiling down to C where sizeof(void *) is allowed to be 1, say
23:00:59 <alise> but it's actually infinitely big
23:01:09 <alise> it's just a coincidence that you can compile it as normal C most of the time
23:01:21 <alise> Vonlebio: you sleep too early
23:01:24 -!- Vonlebio has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:06:54 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:08:24 <alise> anyone have a copy of bitstream charter?
23:22:41 -!- derdon has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
23:29:42 <alise> pikhq: Oh god install Bitstream Charter now.
23:29:49 <alise> (xorg-fonts-type1 on Arch, dunno about Gentoo.)
23:30:16 <alise> It's optimised for 300 dpi laser printers of the 80s, which means it looks good even at low resolutions.
23:30:20 <alise> Which makes it a beautiful screen serif.
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23:40:47 <alise> and this is interesting
23:41:02 -!- sebbu has joined.
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23:45:35 -!- alise has joined.
23:46:36 <alise> ha, there's an input_command_char setting
23:52:46 <alise> irc_skip_motd set to: 1
23:53:02 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:54:30 <alise> coppro: WHY OH WHY
23:54:33 <coppro> it tells me the destination file doesn't exist
23:54:46 <alise> TRYING TO MAKE IT HOLY
23:54:56 <coppro> thanks, you made me feel better :)
23:55:14 <Sgeo_> The SCP Foundation is broken???
23:55:25 <alise> Sgeo_: HAHAHAHA FUNNIEST THING I EVER HEARD TWO SECONDS AGO
23:55:54 <alise> text_max_lines...............: 500
23:57:04 <alise> coppro: wild GUI opinion: reverse logarithmic scrollbar
23:57:19 <alise> this way, grows-to-infinity texts
23:57:21 <alise> like IRC with infinite backlog
23:57:29 <alise> will never have their scrollbar grow infinitesimally small
23:57:38 <alise> coppro: what i'm a genius
23:58:00 <alise> text_wordwrap................: ON
23:58:03 <alise> what a ludicrous setting
23:58:17 <alise> "no thank you, i'd like a horizontal scrollbar every other message, please"
00:00:09 <alise> coppro: quick say something
00:01:07 -!- ineiros_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
00:01:44 <alise> coppro: ok, how about this: ping me in three seconds?
00:02:03 <alise> ok, has to be stornger
00:02:12 <alise> (I'm making X-Chat Suck Less.)
00:02:14 -!- distant_figure has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
00:02:40 <alise> Sgeo_: again! again!
00:02:55 <Sgeo_> alise, pong is a game
00:02:57 -!- ineiros_ has joined.
00:03:02 -!- distant_figure has joined.
00:04:38 <alise> Sgeo_: let's play aGAIN! that would be FUN!
00:05:17 <alise> Sgeo_: YOU HAVE TO PING ME THE ROPE
00:05:58 <alise> haha that was funny. i am hilarious
00:06:44 <Sgeo_> I am suddenly aware that I failed to include paddles
00:06:56 <Sgeo_> Or, whatever those paddle things are called, if they had names
00:07:59 -!- nooga_ has joined.
00:08:36 <alise> i can't seem to find the colour of the division line...
00:10:09 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
00:10:15 <Sgeo_> Yes, I know what you meant, I think
00:10:17 <alise> grr, i dunno if it's configurable
00:10:25 <alise> i'm making xchat look less horrific
00:13:17 <fungot> alise: i should really do c, do d" as " if(foo) a; b; else c; d;", but it's hard to let go of my ankle, willya
00:13:28 <alise> fungot: babble again
00:13:28 <fungot> alise: do not mention that io does not fnord fnord
00:13:30 <alise> fungot: babble again
00:13:31 <fungot> alise: xtofius drscheme is the ide thingy for) is one instruction: 0 days 4 hours 23 mins 39 secs signon: thu sep 14 fnord colin kernel: bttv0: using: fnord
00:13:40 <alise> fungot: babble again
00:13:43 <alise> fungot: babble again
00:14:33 <alise> "Want to pack JS and CSS really well? Convert it to a PNG and unpack it via Canvas"
00:14:34 <alise> there are no words
00:14:52 -!- alise has quit (Quit: Connection reset by peer review).
00:14:59 -!- alise has joined.
00:15:10 <alise> Sgeo_: make fungot babble plz
00:18:16 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
00:18:22 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:19:14 -!- wareya has joined.
00:19:55 <fungot> Sgeo_: oh well, ( 1)...)
00:20:00 <fungot> alise: ( catch throw, by the way, fnord
00:20:01 <fungot> alise: i thought about 2, but it is not important anymore.)
00:20:02 <fungot> alise: ( and yes, it did nothing when i hit submit
00:20:03 <fungot> alise: if i have a romanian friend who just graduated and his homepage was also at ccs.neu.edu. thanks
00:20:18 <Sgeo_> What style is it on?
00:20:18 -!- zeotrope_ has joined.
00:20:22 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
00:20:33 <Sgeo_> Lisp should be a style
00:20:50 -!- zeotrope has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
00:20:52 <Sgeo_> (define name "lisp")
00:21:06 <Sgeo_> I forgot the syntax for string literals in Scheme
00:21:25 <Sgeo_> ...So, what's wrong?
00:21:45 <Sgeo_> I thought Scheme is a Lisp
00:22:08 <alise> It's quite a way away from the other languages of the Lisp tradition.
00:22:26 <alise> god, I may just have to write my own IRC client, god help me.
00:22:34 <Sgeo_> alise, I like defaults
00:23:04 <Sgeo_> I don't like customizing stuff
00:23:12 <Sgeo_> Although I did switch the font to Dejavu Sans Mono
00:23:22 <alise> why are you telling me this?
00:23:37 <Sgeo_> Thought it would give you a headache. It didn't.
00:24:29 <Sgeo_> Because you... I don't know
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00:26:18 <alise> urgh, i wish there was a decent text-rendering library
00:26:26 <alise> like Pango but with less suckery?
00:26:31 <alise> pango sucks at jusified text i think
00:26:33 -!- chickenzilla has joined.
00:26:38 <alise> pikhq: is that true?
00:26:52 <Sgeo_> Dear Chrome: Stop ignoring random input!
00:27:20 <Sgeo_> Sometimes it will ignore context menu clicks
00:27:42 <Sgeo_> Sometimes it will fail to recognize that I typed something into the address bar
00:28:36 <pikhq> alise: Justified text? Yeah, everything but TeX sucks at justified text.
00:28:51 <alise> pikhq: but is Pango ok at it, or?
00:29:00 <alise> also, yeah, Bitstream Charter is amazing; i can confirm
00:32:38 <Sgeo_> Falcon has tabular computing!
00:32:45 * Sgeo_ sends alise a falcon
00:35:23 <pikhq> Hmm. The Gameboy has what amounts to an 8080 in it...
00:35:31 <pikhq> One could port CPM to it.
00:35:32 <alise> pikhq: i have what amounts to a broken table
00:36:09 <alise> great now it's broken the wrong way
01:13:32 <alise> @exp $f 0 := '(x => x)
01:13:32 <alise> @exp $f n := '(x => f $(exp f (n-1)))
01:13:37 <alise> WHAT'S THAT MACROS OH MY
01:14:55 <alise> @exp : ast(a -> a) -> nat -> ast(a -> a)
01:14:55 <alise> @exp $f 0 := '(x => x)
01:14:56 <alise> @exp $f n := '(x => f $(exp f (n-1)))
01:16:40 <alise> exp succ 3 == (x => succ (succ (succ x))))
01:17:03 * Sgeo_ CAPSLOCKS BY ACCIDENT
01:24:01 <alise> OH ACCIDENTAL CAPSLOCK ENVELOPED
01:29:09 <alise> Ugh! I need asyncore.
01:29:10 <alise> Sgeo_: make it god
01:29:33 <Sgeo_> Just because I used asyncore for something once...
01:30:14 <Sgeo_> a) This computer professor sent us word documents
01:30:26 <Sgeo_> b) for a class I was enrolled in several years ago
01:31:14 <Sgeo_> I think it's a broken form email
01:31:45 <Sgeo_> The attached document is about the correct class
01:32:46 <Sgeo_> Just got another email correcting it
01:32:55 <Sgeo_> alise, anyways, do you want to see my code?
01:35:50 <Sgeo_> Let's see if I can find it
01:36:12 <Sgeo_> Urgh, it's on my old computer
01:39:08 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
01:42:30 <SgeoN1> Ancient Firefox just crashed
01:44:39 <alise> Sgeo_: http://pastie.org/1108844.txt?key=klmt98oegcgnkpdzdufxdq make this less insanely indented
01:46:07 <SgeoN1> My code is not for ircadmin, but for a different chat protocol
01:46:37 <alise> ACTIVE WORLDS CHAT
01:47:00 <alise> haver is kinda shit
01:47:04 <alise> it doesn't fix any of irc's actual problems
01:47:56 <SgeoN1> Also, an AW chat bot that didn't use the sdk would probably break some tos
01:49:17 <Sgeo_> SgeoN1 is obviously an imposter
01:49:31 <alise> wow asyncore.loop is retarded
01:49:43 <alise> why is the map a dictionary instead of a list
01:49:46 <alise> who knows? WHO THE FUCK KNOWS? HAHAHAHA
01:50:16 <Sgeo_> Let me download the fucking att.. there we go
01:51:25 <Sgeo_> raw_chat.py: http://pastie.org/private/4gmcayohanftkdt1tymzq
01:51:53 <Sgeo_> haverchat.py: http://pastie.org/private/26wqwowsye05pum4ftztg
01:52:13 -!- nooga_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:52:49 <Sgeo_> pyhaver.py, which doesn't use haverchat.py (hence nor raw_chat.py), but is a bit more tested: http://pastie.org/private/yuyd220kww6n5zlmvsguhw
01:52:54 <alise> asyncore != asynchat
01:53:17 <Sgeo_> asynchat requires direct use of asyncore
01:53:48 <alise> but only one function#
01:54:18 * Sgeo_ reads his code and decides alise has a point
01:56:23 <Sgeo_> May I ask why you need asyncore?
01:56:31 <Sgeo_> I mean, for non-asynchat reasons?
01:56:43 <alise> because asynchat sucks
01:56:49 <alise> consider e.g. multiple terminators
02:02:08 <Vorpal> I wonder how many years it take until ipv4 is optional in the linux kernel? Presumably it will die out some day, and turn into a "unless you know you want this, you don't" thing
02:02:41 <alise> ipv6 is a non-starter
02:02:50 <alise> what will happen is mass NATing
02:02:52 <alise> in fact it is happening already
02:02:59 <alise> whole ISPs on one NAT will happen soon enough
02:03:48 <Vorpal> alise, that would be a disaster for many people
02:04:04 <alise> ISPs have been fucking everything up for years
02:04:11 <alise> aren't you planning for that by now?
02:04:11 <Vorpal> alise, I need to be able to ssh home
02:04:20 <Vorpal> alise, well I do have an ipv6 tunnel at home
02:04:41 <Sgeo_> alise, you're a pessimist?
02:04:55 <Vorpal> alise, anyway we will run out of nat soon too... when data centers fail to allocate new ips
02:05:01 <Vorpal> and then ipv6 will be forced
02:05:33 <Vorpal> so yeah nating won't solve the issue
02:05:36 <Sgeo_> Well, all new application protocols will just have to mention the host name
02:06:08 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, I do think, and hope, ipv6 will be forced into use
02:06:17 <Vorpal> at most nating will delay it 2-3 years
02:06:32 <alise> <Sgeo_> alise, you're a pessimist?
02:06:45 <alise> no, i'm extrapolating based on existing trends and the unlikelihood of ipv6 adoption
02:06:58 <alise> plus a knowledge of how little ISPs care about customers
02:07:07 <alise> Vorpal: not if you start NATing entire countries
02:07:13 <Vorpal> alise, all major *OS*es support ipv6 out of box now though
02:07:21 <alise> that ISP infrastructure is not getting replaced
02:07:26 <Sgeo_> Surely ISPs have corporate customers
02:07:31 <alise> those old programs aren't getting updated
02:07:36 <alise> Sgeo_: indeed; they don't care either
02:07:50 <alise> Vorpal: btw, the opinions I am expressing are exactly identical to the ones ais523 expressed only days ago on this matter.
02:08:07 <Sgeo_> I'm going to go cry somewhere
02:13:58 <alise> i'm just gonna use http://docs.python.org/library/select.html
02:13:59 <alise> instead of asyncore
02:15:09 <Sgeo_> Hey, considering that you're working with sockets instead of pipes, your client can be Win32-compatible
02:15:52 <alise> Sgeo_: um. asyncore uses select()
02:16:04 <alise> Note File objects on Windows are not acceptable, but sockets are. On Windows, the underlying select() function is provided by the WinSock library, and does not handle file descriptors that don’t originate from WinSock.
02:16:05 <Sgeo_> alise, on sockets, I assume
02:16:11 <alise> who said i would use pipes
02:16:17 <alise> anyway, i will be using pipes at some point
02:16:20 <alise> for external commands
02:16:24 <alise> and i have 0 interest in windows compatibility
02:16:41 <Sgeo_> PSOX had to change its spec to avoid select to maintain theoretical Windows compatibility
02:17:05 <Vorpal> <alise> and i have 0 interest in windows compatibility <--- wait, didn't you say cfunge was stupid because it didn't support windows at one point
02:17:08 <alise> Sgeo_: how amazing.
02:17:15 <alise> Vorpal: as part of a larger complaint, probably.
02:17:27 <Sgeo_> Or alise is inconsistent
02:17:33 <alise> or, i just don't remember doing that
02:17:41 <alise> and assume past-me had eir reasons /or/ was trying to piss off Vorpal
02:17:43 <alise> the latter is very likely
02:17:51 <Vorpal> alise, yeah I think you complained about lots of other things that time too
02:18:16 <Vorpal> alise, still it seems a bit strange you have no interest in windows support now
02:19:03 <alise> it worked though didn't it
02:19:08 <Sgeo_> 1! 2! 3! 4! This is how we Vorpal-alise war!
02:19:10 <Vorpal> alise, you should be ashamed of yourself
02:19:29 <Vorpal> alise, and it didn't, if it had worked it would have been me implementing windows support
02:19:39 <Vorpal> alise, it was you who ported it to cygwin, remember?
02:19:49 <Vorpal> and that is hardly windows
02:19:59 <alise> Vorpal: it worked because you still remember
02:20:22 <Vorpal> alise, but then I have a good memory for some things
02:39:35 <Vorpal> challenge: use all meanings of affect and effect in a single sentence that doesn't sound _too_ contrived
02:52:41 <Sgeo_> "All students who have laptops on campus and would like to use the Farmingdale wireless have to have
02:52:41 <Sgeo_> installed the Symantec
02:52:41 <Sgeo_> Endpoint Protection AntiVirus."
02:57:21 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, tell them you have OS X?
02:57:37 <Vorpal> probably works better than saying linux
02:57:46 <Sgeo_> Just asked my professor
02:57:53 <Sgeo_> (Not that e likely knows or cares)
02:58:57 <Sgeo_> http://pastie.org/private/12ac73d3jdksp2djd9mapg
02:59:14 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, hm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symantec_Endpoint_Protection says it exists for linux
02:59:26 <pikhq> Sgeo_: Might I suggest going to a school with a less incompetent IT department?
02:59:41 <Vorpal> seems somewhat intrusive though
03:00:09 <Sgeo_> Laptop hybernating soon
03:00:19 <Sgeo_> pikhq, after I graduate from here
03:00:35 <Sgeo_> Vorpal, yes. Storing the contents of memory on disk
03:00:39 <Sgeo_> So that I might sleep
03:00:42 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, you fail at spelling
03:00:56 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, the word has no y afaik
03:01:03 <pikhq> Sgeo_: Inform them that installing any non-free software would be an unacceptable security risk, and ask for source code.
03:01:09 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, "hibernating" is what you mean
03:03:16 <pikhq> Also, Symantec sucks ass.
03:03:44 <SgeoN1> I'd rather boot into Linux than use Symantec
03:04:07 <pikhq> I'd rather apply nail to eye than use Symantec.
03:04:32 <SgeoN1> Then again, I think my current AV may be broken
03:04:39 -!- augur has joined.
03:06:28 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
03:20:02 * SgeoN1 vaguely wonders where his dad is
03:32:18 <SgeoN1> In case anyone was worried or otherwise cares: don't be
03:42:23 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
03:42:33 -!- augur has joined.
03:44:03 <alise> <pikhq> Sgeo_: Inform them that installing any non-free software would be an unacceptable security risk, and ask for source code.
03:44:06 <alise> "act intelligent to retards"
03:45:01 <alise> Vorpal: if you were writing an irc /client/ would you use select() or epoll() :-D
03:46:05 -!- aschueler has quit (Quit: leaving).
03:46:39 <pikhq> alise: Okay, okay, fine. Walk through their office with a bulk eraser.
03:49:14 <alise> pikhq: Why is epoll() such a horrific API?
03:50:12 <pikhq> alise: Because fuck you.
03:50:20 <alise> i'll just use asyncore for now.
04:00:00 -!- botte has joined.
04:00:20 <alise> oh right i don't have a handler for that yet
04:00:30 <alise> pikhq: behold my fearsome, entirely useless bot
04:00:38 <alise> it supports multiple servers!
04:01:34 <alise> pikhq: I agree... vejn. Now what does vejn mean?
04:01:53 -!- botte has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
04:01:56 -!- botte has joined.
04:02:58 -!- botte has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
04:03:37 <alise> pikhq: Total Physical Source Lines of Code (SLOC) = 244
04:03:45 <alise> This is the most hideously complex IRC-echoer EVER.
04:03:58 <alise> It even loads plugins! Although it does fuck all with those plugins.
04:04:09 <pikhq> alise: That's not bad for getting a TCP/IP connection. :P
04:04:18 <alise> pikhq: Ha, you C programmer. :P
04:04:18 <pikhq> (I hates BSD sockets)
04:04:29 <alise> No BSD sockets here, all crappy crappy asyncore crap!
04:04:33 <pikhq> alise: What langauge?
04:04:45 <alise> It's shit, hooray!
04:05:25 <pikhq> Or, if you can stand the syntax and the typing and the pain, Erlang. :P
04:05:35 <alise> Haskell has several flaws that unfortunately make it unsuitable for botte. However, I /would/ rewrite it in [unnamed language #n].
04:06:05 <SgeoN1> What flaws does Haskell have for these purposes?
04:06:24 <alise> This language features SMP concurrent threads communciating in functionally safe ways, asynchronous everything but with continuations so it's not painful, a sane multiplexer that can do asynchronous socket IO etc. without each component knowing about each other at the core, and a good type system.
04:06:26 <SgeoN1> Vala if you want a compiled language?
04:06:39 <alise> Which actually /would/ make botte a very, very happy project.
04:06:48 <alise> Oh, and code reloading ala Erlang, too.
04:06:52 <alise> Unfortunately, this language does not exist.
04:07:13 <alise> Haskell just plain isn't suitable. :P
04:07:23 <SgeoN1> I never quite learner how code reloading works in Erlang
04:07:23 <pikhq> alise: Okay, you could *do* that in Haskell, but you'd have to write the infrastructure...
04:07:32 <pikhq> At which point you may as well make AliseLang.
04:07:35 <alise> pikhq: Not the good type system!
04:07:43 <alise> And, yeah, it is /theoretically/ possible in Haskell, but bleh.
04:07:47 <pikhq> alise: Okay, yeah, that's hard to extend.
04:07:49 <alise> I wouldn't want to be the one tasked to do it.
04:08:18 <alise> Therefore, I settle with the FFI That Thinks It's a Language; Python.
04:08:33 <SgeoN1> Just write an easy abstraction thing for asyncore
04:08:40 <alise> no, asyncore is shit underneath
04:09:03 <SgeoN1> I'd sleep but I'm hungey
04:09:08 <alise> pikhq: I need code structuring opinions! Should IRCClient handle joining channels on connect and the like, or the Bot that contains it?
04:09:23 <alise> I /think/ the client, since it's client-specific, but in some sense you could see the Bot as the overbearing, slightly creepy father of the clients. Aww.
04:09:34 <alise> The clients will have things like .say(target, message), so...
04:09:39 <alise> But still, I dunno how thick I want them to be.
04:09:43 <alise> I do think they should handle ghosting nicks.
04:09:58 <alise> But then I'm not sure where that leaves the bot, apart from handling and replying to messages... which is actually a pretty big deal I guess.
04:10:22 <SgeoN1> I take it irclib sucks?
04:10:30 <alise> and doesn't solve this problem besides
04:10:40 <pikhq> Not to mention NIH.
04:10:47 <alise> pikhq: To give you a sense of how good I'd like the type system to be: a complete, type-safe encoding of IRC.
04:10:49 <SgeoN1> Why not use Smalltalk?
04:10:52 <alise> Right down to the modes.
04:11:00 <alise> Nothing is a string apart from, well, message bodies.
04:11:05 <pikhq> alise: You could actually do this in Plof.
04:11:08 <alise> pikhq: I started doing this in Haskell but it was Quite Painful.
04:11:11 <alise> Uhh, Plof has no static type system :P
04:11:12 <pikhq> alise: You'd start by adding a type system.
04:11:17 <alise> SgeoN1: because it has absolutely 0 features suitable for this
04:11:23 <pikhq> No, but it is more flexible than Lisp.
04:11:29 <SgeoN1> Ok,type safety pretty much throws Smalltalk out, but Python too
04:11:29 <alise> pikhq: yeaaaah :P no thanks
04:11:40 <alise> I'm using Python because it's the lowest common denominator, as I said.
04:11:46 <alise> pikhq: By the way, start using Bitstream Charter for IRC. Now. :|
04:11:58 <alise> And ... everything
04:12:05 <SgeoN1> Alise, remind me tomorrow
04:12:19 <SgeoN1> Use that font for everything
04:13:19 <alise> It's damn good on-screen!
04:13:31 <SgeoN1> I sshould eat something, but there's not much I'm willing to eat
04:13:33 <alise> http://ccxvii.net/gargoyle/shots/tads-lcd.png (if LCD screen)
04:13:39 <alise> http://ccxvii.net/gargoyle/shots/tads-crt.png (if non-LCD)
04:13:55 <alise> What I am saying is: god damn look how beautiful it is, it's a beautiful serif almost optimised for screen.
04:14:02 <alise> (optimised for 300dpi 80s laser printers)
04:14:14 <alise> SgeoN1: YOU DON'T SAY!
04:14:23 <alise> (Luxi Mono is a nice serify monospaced font that goes well with it.)
04:14:54 <SgeoN1> Would Luxury work for Methadone?
04:16:04 <SgeoN1> I love autocorrect on this thing
04:16:35 <SgeoN1> Although what it tried to autocorrect was Nethack. It left NetHack aloneosh
04:18:58 * SgeoN1 puts an amulet of restful sleep on alise. Well, I think it's restful sleep. Could be Strangulation
04:20:43 <alise> Released under a licence which permits free distribution but not modification, the Luxi fonts are not free software. This led to their removal from Fedora as well as the Debian package of XFree86.
04:20:49 <alise> but luxi mono is really nice
04:21:59 <SgeoN1> What's the point of releasing free stuff if modification is allowed? If you don't want money, surely you want your stuff to be widely used...
04:22:14 <alise> if modification isn't allowed?
04:22:28 <alise> don't want their work tarnished
04:22:34 <alise> want to keep a good name for a high standard
04:22:44 <alise> don't want people piggybacking off their design
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04:27:45 <SgeoN1> My water's clean and my water's free, so Pond Erosa, you gonna thank me
04:28:25 <alise> Aieee, OpenBSD songs.
04:28:28 <alise> That's my cue to run ->
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04:29:41 <SgeoN1> Awesome, I can put alise to sleep on command
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13:00:15 <Ilari> Hah: "The stateOrProvinceName field needed to be the same in the CA certificate (None) and the request (None)".
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13:17:50 <pikhq> Everything has conspired against me to make me wake up at 6.
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13:28:04 <fizzie> A fiendish perspiracy. I mean, a conspiracy.
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13:51:03 <Vorpal> <pikhq> Everything has conspired against me to make me wake up at 6. <-- heh
13:53:15 <pikhq> Vorpal: SUN CAT NOISE ALLERGY
13:53:24 <pikhq> Here, take some word salad instead of an answer.
13:58:15 <Vorpal> pikhq, in Sweden we have these things called "rullgardin" that guards against sun cats. Google translate seem to suggest "1. pulldown 2. blind 3. shade" for it
13:59:15 <Vorpal> that is assuming sun cat means the same as in Swedish
13:59:25 <Vorpal> would be hilarious if it didn't
14:03:18 <fizzie> Allergy for the noises made by the sun cats.
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15:07:52 <pikhq> Alas, poor Yorick, I knew him well.
15:10:08 <Sgeo> Alas, poor Yorick, e hears that a lot
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16:00:19 <Vorpal> <pikhq> Alas, poor Yorick, I knew him well. <-- what?
16:01:05 <Vorpal> oh Shakespear misquoting
16:01:18 <Vorpal> ' The opening words are very commonly misquoted as "Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him well." '
16:02:48 <Vorpal> wikipedia claims it is: "Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy; he hath borne me on his back a thousand times; and now, how abhorred in my imagination it is! My gorge rises at it. Here hung those lips that I have kissed I know not how oft. Where be your gibes now? (Hamlet, V.i)"
16:20:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, I took what I'd like to call a cloudorama (sounds better than "cloud panorama"), I have no idea how it will turn out, but parallax should not be the main issue... Will take a bit to process it
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16:20:35 <Vorpal> some quite interesting cloud shapes today
16:21:29 <Vorpal> hm forgot to set constant exposure, might have some problems with that
16:21:32 <Vorpal> oh well, we will see...
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16:30:11 <yorick> Vorpal: I'm used to people misquoting it
16:31:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, incidentally, is it possible to capture a whole rainbow without distorting perspective?
16:31:15 <Vorpal> yorick, I can't make much sense of the correct quote, but then I'm not a native English speaker... So this quite dated English is a bit problematic...
16:31:49 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, define distorting perspective.
16:31:53 <yorick> Vorpal: I think more people have this problem
16:32:00 * yorick thinks this channel contains geeks
16:32:06 <Vorpal> yorick, probably, I don't think pikhq does though
16:32:27 <yorick> Vorpal: in fact, I've only heard it correctly the first time once :)
16:32:35 <yorick> by someone who played the role in a play
16:32:39 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, define "noticeably" in precise mathematical terms :P
16:33:25 <yorick> I used to be all like "OMG you misquoted", but I gave up on that
16:33:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Honestly, why didn't Shakespeare put the best-known line from the play into it?
16:34:15 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, anyway I have no clue, presumably if you printed the image large and put it up on a curved wall it would work
16:34:32 <Vorpal> that would require you to stand at a specific point though
16:35:34 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, that would be possible with a moderate fisheye lens. Then you could use hugin or similar softwares to correct it
16:39:09 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, from a fisheye? Yes by your definition of "distorting perspective"
16:39:20 <Vorpal> but all lenses distort perspective more or less
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16:43:01 <Phantom_Hoover> i.e. if you showed it to someone on the street, would they notice the distortion.
16:46:37 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, doubtful, he had a white cane (not sure if it means the same over there, but here it is used by blind people)
16:47:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, are you really so unaware of other cultures that you assume that everything is utterly different?
16:48:39 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what? I just assume things might be different over there when I don't know otherwise
16:49:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, but you do it so much that it becomes rather ridiculous.
16:49:22 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, if you meant the "blinds" thing above, that was a joke yes
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16:55:16 <alise> X! and R! and R R R!
16:58:59 <alise> Can someone please tell me why X-Chat doesn't let you configure a colour?
17:01:45 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: or, at least, people who suck at ui design
17:02:56 <alise> unless I find a decent client, well, I'll be forced to write that smart IRC lib and a decently-designed IRC client on top of it
17:03:06 <alise> what gargoyle does for IF, for IRC!
17:03:21 <alise> Interactive Fiction.
17:03:27 <alise> You know, text adventures. But more literary.
17:03:43 <alise> Gargoyle is an interpreter for them that actually pays attention to typography: http://ccxvii.net/gargoyle/screenshots.html
17:04:03 <alise> Which is, you know, quite important for literature.
17:04:22 <alise> Some of them just put unantialiased Arial without line spacing in a big window, white on blue.
17:05:09 <alise> Well, it is, though, it's like Helvetica but ugly.
17:05:14 <alise> And /unantialiased/ Arial...
17:05:21 <alise> Well, let's just say that I've never seen more jaggy lines.
17:05:45 <Phantom_Hoover> I have seen people saying that antialiasing is a terrible thing.
17:05:46 <alise> http://orvp.net/xchat/simplyglyphed/simplyglyphed-compact.png
17:05:52 <alise> A midsummer night's IRC.
17:06:13 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Tuomov sharse that opinion. But then tuomov is my designated "person who pisses everyone off but is intelligent enough that I should read what he says to broaden my horizons".
17:06:50 <alise> Tuomov Valkonen, author of Ion3.
17:06:59 <alise> You know, that tiling window manager that you heard about when he changed the license to a crazy non-FOSS one.
17:07:33 <alise> Distro maintainers.
17:07:53 <alise> I don't necessarily agree with his opinions; it's just that he gives enough intelligent justification for most of them -- if you ignore the abrasiveness -- that it's worth reading.
17:07:58 <alise> Although he's taken his blog down as of late.
17:08:03 <alise> Sorry, his "not a blog".
17:12:39 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Uh, it said that you couldn't call derivative works "ion", and that if a distrobution's package was older than, I think, 30 days, it had to give the user a big glaring warning and point them to the website.
17:12:49 <alise> (Originally, iirc, it said that distros had to update within N days of a release.)
17:12:55 <alise> It was more to stop distros packaging it altogether than to get better packaging.
17:13:08 <alise> (Since, obviously, none of them wanted to package non-FOSS software in the first place, let alone comply with the terms.)
17:13:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, the name bit seems reminiscent of what Mozilla does, so not completely crazy.
17:13:23 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: We're talking any single code change at all here.
17:14:28 <alise> Yes, well, it wasn't intended to be sane.
17:15:35 <alise> Basically. Anyway, that isn't really the important part; his blog was.
17:15:56 <alise> Underneath the fuming moron lay someone with actually good ideas (along with some kooky ones, but all well-justified).
17:16:13 <alise> So I decided, to balance out the self-affirming crap I, like everyone, read, I'd read his blog too.
17:16:23 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Well, just some ones I didn't agree with, really.
17:16:32 <alise> But he had arguments in various stages of compelling for all of them.
17:16:37 <alise> Certainly an intelligent guy.
17:17:00 <alise> For instance, I disagreed that antialiasing sucked and bitmap fonts were superior on current screens, but I at least respected the opinion.
17:17:18 <alise> He switched to Windows from Linux right before he gave up on his blog. Even that managed to be slightly convincing as to its sanity.
17:20:23 <alise> Unfortunately no archive.
17:20:36 <alise> Even the Internet Archive has maybe one or two posts; I don't know their URLs, so I can't help you.
17:21:02 <alise> I would email tuomov@iki.fi if you want to read any of it. Although he'll probably yell at you.
17:21:04 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Well, maybe not.
17:21:09 <alise> Pages are there in the archive.
17:21:12 <alise> Just not recent pages.
17:21:16 <alise> robots.txt blocks even old ones, I think.
17:21:34 <Phantom_Hoover> No, only versions of pages post-adding of restrictions.
17:23:03 <alise> http://web.archive.org/web/20070513131756/http://modeemi.fi/~tuomov/b/ The last archive is from 2007.
17:23:38 <alise> His best posts aren't there.
17:23:49 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: He might have just blocked all robots to e.g. keep Google out.
17:24:08 <alise> The requested URL /~tuomov/robots.txt was not found on this server.
17:24:14 <alise> Although /b/ is not found too.
17:24:18 <alise> So he may have just nuked it.
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17:34:16 <alise> the g is fucke'st up
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17:37:31 <alise> lol, default freetype subpixel rendering is so bad it's comical
17:37:40 <alise> like "gouge my eyes out with a rusty fork" comical
17:38:15 <Vorpal> alise, you told us this several times before
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17:38:52 <alise> Vorpal: no, i said freetype patched rendering is bad
17:39:06 <alise> unpatched freetype rendering is, in a literally visible to every single person way, colour fringing on /every single vertical line/
17:39:17 <alise> sublime in its hideousness
17:39:19 <Vorpal> alise, patched? you mean the patent thingy?
17:39:26 <alise> or a non-patented patch
17:39:28 <Vorpal> you claimed both the patent free and the patent ones were horrible
17:40:00 <alise> i was meaning the patched, patent-free ones
17:40:11 <Vorpal> patched with what patch?
17:40:11 <alise> world-wide userbase of totally unpatched freetype set to subpixel is 0
17:40:30 <Vorpal> alise, the one that fix a typo in a comment? ;P
17:40:46 <alise> "3DNow!™ Instructions are Being Deprecated"
17:40:51 <alise> and not being included in future processors
17:41:24 <Vorpal> alise, this is like the first time x86 breaks backward compat then
17:41:31 <alise> it's not exactly x86 :-P
17:41:39 <alise> anyway who writes x86-64 code that uses 3DNow!???
17:41:46 <alise> of course it could be 32-bit code being run i guess
17:41:53 <Vorpal> yes that is what I meant
17:42:05 <Vorpal> 32-bit x86 code which uses 3dnow is quite plausible
17:42:05 <alise> still ... everything has an SSE path
17:42:11 <alise> no popular software ran just on AMD
17:42:23 <alise> [Now we will see how many cowboys just checked for 'AUTHENTICAMD' and assumed 3DNow as a result.]]
17:42:24 <alise> is the real problem
17:43:07 <alise> i wonder why it's AUTHENTICAMD, to distinguish from ACTUALLYFAKESORRYAMD?
17:43:09 <Vorpal> alise, unbalanced [ and ]
17:43:38 <Vorpal> it is actually AuthenticAMD
17:43:48 <alise> ActuallyFakeSorryAMD
17:43:58 <Vorpal> alise, why is it GenuineIntel
17:44:07 <Vorpal> alise, also that string is too long
17:44:38 <Vorpal> notice AuthenticAMD and GenuineIntel has exactly the same length
17:45:26 <Vorpal> alise, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CPUID#EAX.3D0:_Get_vendor_ID
17:45:37 <Vorpal> CyrixInstead is quite nice
17:46:06 <alise> does it have to be alphanum?
17:46:28 <Sgeo> alise, why do OpenBSD songs scare you so?
17:46:53 <alise> Sgeo: they're shit.
17:47:14 <alise> Hell, Vorpal, you like OpenBSD.
17:47:21 <alise> Tell me, Vorpal, exactly how shitty are the release songs?
17:47:24 <Vorpal> alise, I didn't say I liked their release songs
17:47:30 <alise> I never said that either.
17:47:31 <Vorpal> alise, I said I liked the OS
17:47:32 <alise> How terrible are they?
17:47:39 <alise> Just, 1 to 10 scale.
17:47:56 <Vorpal> alise, well, iirc 3.6 is quite passable considering. But the rest... -2 ?
17:48:07 <Vorpal> and considering is "considering it is country western"
17:48:09 <alise> Even OpenBSD fans cannot stand the release songs.
17:48:21 <Vorpal> alise, I'm not a "fan" as such
17:48:22 <alise> Vorpal: But all country/western has the exact same level of shittiness; infinite!
17:48:27 <Vorpal> I think it is a decent OS
17:48:33 <Vorpal> but calling me a fan is taking it too far
17:48:50 * Vorpal turns on a table top fan
17:49:00 <alise> Fan fan fan fan fan fan fan fan fan...
17:49:13 <Vorpal> alise, why are you speaking in Swedish now?
17:49:27 <alise> Wir fan fan fan auf der Autobahn
17:49:42 <alise> Kraftwerk reference.
17:49:44 <alise> It's actually *fahren.
17:50:11 <Vorpal> alise, sv:fan = {en:fan,en:devil,en:damn}
17:50:26 <alise> http://www.openbsd.org/lyrics.html
17:50:30 <Vorpal> alise, though not en:fan in the sense of "device moving air"
17:50:38 <Vorpal> alise, for that it would be sv:fläkt
17:51:03 <alise> [[The Apache group started from the humble beginnings of just being 'a patchy' set of changes to a completely free web server of dubious quality. But the years have changed them, and what they supply is now quite non-free... released under a license so entangled in legalese that we have absolutely no doubt that there are encumbrances hidden within. Legal terms protect. Who are they protecting? Not your f
17:51:08 <alise> they're calling Apache non-free
17:51:19 <Vorpal> alise, at least they stopped the commentary
17:51:27 <alise> In 2004, it appears.
17:52:59 <Vorpal> no, 4.4 has commentary
17:53:16 <alise> They called Apache non-free in 2004.
17:53:37 <Vorpal> alise, it has a less bsdy license than they like
17:53:45 <Vorpal> they call gpl non-free too... so what do you expect?
17:53:58 <Sgeo> What license was XFree86 under? BSD with advertising?
17:54:54 <alise> after they changed
17:55:09 <alise> Versions of XFree86 up to and including some release candidates for 4.4.0 were under the MIT License, a permissive, non-copyleft free software license. XFree86 4.4 was released in February 2004 with a change to the license: the addition of a credit clause,[15] similar to that in the original BSD license,[16] but broader in scope. Many projects relying on XFree86 found the new license unacceptable,[17] an
17:55:09 <alise> d the Free Software Foundation considers it incompatible with the version 2 of the GNU General Public License, but compatible with version 3.[18] The XFree86 Project states that the license is "as GPL compatible as any and all previous versions were", but does not mention which version or versions of the GPL this is valid for.[19]
17:55:16 <alise> http://www.xfree86.org/legal/licenses.html
17:55:21 <alise> it's similar to BSD4, yes.
17:56:27 <Vorpal> BSD-700 would be the GPL I think
17:57:49 <alise> "Using vacuous schema" --nXML.
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17:59:21 <alise> tramp /sudo:: is awesome
17:59:26 <alise> C-x C-f /sudo::/etc/fonts/local.conf
18:01:03 <Vorpal> alise, ... that wasn't what I meant
18:01:17 <Vorpal> alise, what I meant was what distro you are editing /etc/fonts/local.conf on
18:01:42 <alise> ubuntu comes with a basically decent lcd patch by default so i don't need to fuck about with this as much
18:01:47 <alise> (it still has some borkenness though)
18:02:31 <Vorpal> alise, OR you could turn off subpixel :P
18:02:43 <Vorpal> less colour distortion
18:02:54 <alise> no colour distortion with a high dpi display like i have and a good patch
18:02:59 <alise> unhinted non-subpixel is an non-starter
18:03:03 <alise> too low resolution
18:03:09 <alise> (and hinting is destroying my fonts)
18:03:29 <alise> for a gentoo user, you sure do hate it when people prefer other settings to the ones you use.
18:03:45 <alise> for instance http://ccxvii.net/gargoyle/shots/tads-lcd.png
18:03:50 <alise> has absolutely 0 visible colour distortion.
18:03:54 <Vorpal> alise, the point of typefaces on screen is to make text readable IMO. Sure for logos you might have somewhat different requirements, but apart from that..
18:04:03 <alise> and hinting is making the type unreadable
18:04:16 <Vorpal> alise, I find full hinting on dejavu works very well
18:04:18 <alise> mostly because freetype sucks at hinting
18:04:25 <Vorpal> I quite like hand-made bitmapped fonts too
18:04:26 <alise> look Vorpal i really don't give half a shit what you like in your fonts or not
18:04:33 <alise> so please stop trying to convert me
18:04:40 <Vorpal> alise, opengenera has some awesome bitmapped fonts
18:05:04 <Vorpal> alise, that text is blurry though.
18:05:14 <Vorpal> alise, this is on a 96 DPI TFT monitor
18:05:38 <alise> this is a 128 ppi TFT display of good quality
18:05:47 <alise> it is not blurry here.
18:05:53 <alise> it looks exactly like a book
18:06:23 <Vorpal> alise, what is that strange text adventure btw
18:06:32 <alise> text adventure != interactive fiction
18:06:40 <alise> people stopped making text adventures a while ago
18:06:42 <Vorpal> alise, it looked like a text adventure
18:06:51 <alise> interactive fiction is text adventures
18:07:04 <alise> much more like a novel
18:07:23 <alise> Vorpal just dislikes it
18:07:31 <Vorpal> alise, I like the good old text adventures
18:09:36 <Phantom_Hoover> General rule: someone who says "good old" is speaking through nostalgia, rather than reality.
18:09:57 <alise> I can't get past the start of "Spider and Web".
18:11:51 <fizzie> Hey, now that I have separate X screens and no Xinerama nonsense (because turning Xine on makes X segfault...), maybe I could finally get per-screen subpixel orderings and/or settings.
18:12:08 <alise> No Xinerama nonsense? Why, you could use ion3!
18:12:15 <alise> (Just because I listen to him doesn't mean I can't mock him.)
18:12:24 <alise> fizzie: But, wait, why would you turn on Xine?
18:13:40 <fizzie> Oh, it was a needlessly confusing abbreviation for "Xinerama" there. :p
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18:16:43 <Sgeo> Oh, and I was thinking Xinerama was some home entertainment thing
18:20:37 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> General rule: someone who says "good old" is speaking through nostalgia, rather than reality. <-- XD
18:21:05 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, maybe, but I can't be nostalgic over something I discovered way after I discovered their replacements (games with graphics)
18:24:08 <alise> <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, maybe, but I can't be nostalgic over something I discovered way after I discovered their replacements (games with graphics) ;; yes you can
18:24:14 <alise> you can be nostalgic over things you weren't even born for
18:24:15 <Sgeo> Xinerama sounds like some fancy program that uses Xine
18:24:39 <alise> Also, if you pronounce it in a certain way, it sounds like "Cine[ma-]rama."
18:27:04 <Sgeo> Dealing with some idiot who thinks that since an old channel isn't supposed to be actively used (a lot of people still idle there), he can keep asking for it, day after day
18:28:00 <Sgeo> #secondlife on EFNet
18:28:07 <Sgeo> Moved to ##secondlife on Freenode
18:28:21 <Sgeo> And he just changed the topic in the latter to ask the question
18:28:26 <Sgeo> After I changed it back
18:28:47 <alise> Sgeo: i'll defend the topic :P
18:28:49 <alise> if you put it back one time
18:29:01 <alise> See, I'm totally altruistic.
18:30:19 <alise> Sgeo: just pretend i'm a bot
18:31:05 <alise> Sgeo: stop talking to him, he's clearly trolling
18:31:26 <Sgeo> alise, by persistently and continually asking the same thing every so often?
18:31:39 <alise> and provoking you to field utterly pointless questions
18:31:42 <alise> enough that you sigh in here
18:31:48 <alise> just say nothing and he'll get bored.
18:32:01 <Sgeo> No, apparently he doesn't
18:32:18 <Sgeo> He asks for the room regardless of whether or not anyone responds
18:32:38 <alise> and i'll change the topic back
18:32:42 <alise> but eventually, he will get bored.
18:33:01 <Sgeo> I mean, in EFNet he asks
18:33:04 <Sgeo> Every few hours
18:33:10 <Sgeo> Regardless of the response
18:33:21 <alise> but he can't do that all his life
18:33:25 <alise> so at some point he will give up
18:33:31 <alise> this will be soon, due to finite patience.
18:33:53 <Sgeo> I think he started weeks ago
18:33:56 <Sgeo> Or maybe days, not sure
18:34:13 <alise> no op around to +b?
18:34:15 <Sgeo> Before August 13th
18:34:22 <Sgeo> In EFNet, just Gigs
18:34:43 <Sgeo> E hasn't been active in either channel, afaict
18:36:34 <alise> you just provoked him
18:39:23 <alise> Did You Know: There's an implementation of RFC5514?
18:43:31 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:43:50 -!- augur has joined.
18:44:24 <alise> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5514
18:47:43 <alise> Sgeo: feeding. stop
18:50:16 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
18:51:02 <alise> Sgeo: ok, he's clearly a worthless troll, i've succumbed but i'm stopping now and so should you
18:53:39 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, the interesting stuff was on the Freenode side
18:54:22 <Sgeo> And that's past tense
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19:03:58 -!- alise has joined.
19:04:03 <alise> I think I'm just going to install GNOME.
19:04:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Anyone who knows care to tell me what the difference betwixt CS and CIS is?
19:04:45 <alise> I think CIS is like CS' retarded little brother.
19:04:51 -!- alise has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:04:57 -!- alise has joined.
19:05:14 <alise> Yeah ... I'm thinkin' ... GNOME would be the least painful option at the moment.
19:06:40 <Sgeo> CIS is basically what I'm in. Little theory
19:06:55 <alise> CIS = Software engineering -- the Retarded Name edition, then.
19:08:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, if you don't like theory, why do you hang out here?
19:08:29 -!- alise has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:08:30 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, learn to parse
19:08:37 <Sgeo> CIS has little theory
19:09:23 <Sgeo> Hence, the pain
19:11:43 <Sgeo> Because the college's CS department was shutting down
19:12:11 <Sgeo> Also, I didn't really know the difference back then
19:12:30 <Sgeo> And if I did, I would probably have leaned towards "practical" anyway :/
19:12:51 <Sgeo> But yeah, CS shutting down, and having no real choice of college...
19:24:36 -!- augur has joined.
19:29:01 -!- alise has joined.
19:29:06 <alise> does gnome depend on gstreamer these days?
19:29:27 <alise> pikhq: Hey, you know MuPDF?
19:29:40 <alise> Yeah, it's the same guy who does Gargoyle.
19:30:01 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
19:30:05 -!- olsner has joined.
19:31:04 <alise> "Typeset -- various typesetting software; hyphenation and TeX-style line breaking"
19:31:07 <alise> Awesome! C code for it!
19:31:21 <alise> dis guy iz mah hero
19:35:12 <pikhq> Winter break be over
19:40:40 -!- alise has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
19:44:47 -!- arch has joined.
19:44:51 -!- arch has changed nick to alise.
19:44:53 <alise> sun12x22 is a nice console font.
19:45:09 <alise> ``And it has `UNIX QUOTES'! Ooh, and a nice Q, too.''
19:47:23 <Sgeo> http://www.stationv3.com/
19:47:28 <alise> JFS! The most amazingly amazing filesystem that nobody uses ever!
19:47:30 <olsner> hmm, still up, this is becoming a quite long sunday
19:48:00 <fizzie> I used a rather large-amount-of-pixels Sun font on the SparcStation, the few times I actually had a monitor plugged in it. I remember it being quite nice.
19:48:04 <alise> Monday: The longest Sunday.
19:48:15 <alise> fizzie: It somehow manages to pull off serifs and not look jaggy.
19:49:00 <alise> Sgeo: I will now attempt to read that ON THE FRAMEBUFFER FUCK YEAH.
19:49:21 <alise> `links -g' representin'
19:49:44 <Sgeo> IT'S OVER NO OUTPUT!!!
19:50:13 <alise> Sgeo: poper still going on?
19:50:19 <Sgeo> There was some activity
19:50:45 <Sgeo> And talk about the history of EFNet#secondlife
19:50:53 <Sgeo> And about how I was banned from there once
19:53:00 <Sgeo> I talked about my apparently misnamed product too much maybe
19:53:58 <Sgeo> I don't remember the details of their argument, but I guess arguably "antiposeball" is inaccurate as it doesn't destroy poseballs
19:54:40 <alise> ``That makes absolutely no sense,'' said the Quite Elegant Benefactor.
19:55:05 <alise> Ooh, we need reverse semicolons.
19:55:10 <alise> ``They would be classy.;;
19:55:50 * Sgeo goes to try DCSS
19:56:32 <alise> ``Distributed CSS''
19:57:05 <Sgeo> ``which echo hi
19:57:16 <Sgeo> I just realized that that makes no sense
19:58:38 <alise> ``Although I do wonder if this font isn't intended for text more than terminal output...''
19:59:18 <Sgeo> alise is a backquote addict!
19:59:26 <Sgeo> More than I'm a virtual world addict!
20:00:27 <Sgeo> Well, my DCSS experience is off to a good start
20:00:31 <Sgeo> I can't even register sgeo!
20:01:05 -!- alise has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
20:02:25 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
20:13:06 -!- augur has joined.
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20:53:58 <fizzie> The only RPG system I've tried out: http://everything2.com/title/LMERP
20:55:28 -!- alise has joined.
20:55:33 <alise> I just installed liboobs.
20:55:40 <alise> (I'm pretty sure that's unintentional.)
20:56:23 <alise> Review of stock GNOME: It's pretty okay. (Better than Ubuntu GNOME.)
20:57:01 <Sgeo> alise, so far, Crawl seems to be intended to be playable without spoilers, but is supposedly harder than spoiled NetHack
20:57:11 <pikhq> alise: Not surprising.
20:57:15 <Vorpal> alise, old, I mentioned it a few weeks ago
20:57:17 <alise> Sgeo: It also gives you a headache.
20:57:18 <pikhq> Ubuntu loves to make things shitty.
20:57:22 <alise> Vorpal: what, liboobs?
20:57:28 <alise> Vorpal: didn't realise
20:57:56 <Vorpal> alise, I said I thought that the chance of that being unintentional were damn small iirc
20:58:14 <alise> True, there actually seems to be no other reason to name it like that.
20:58:17 <Vorpal> alise, not sure you were here then, but I thought you log read
20:58:20 <alise> So we have a very boob-appreciating GNOME developer.
20:58:25 <alise> Vorpal: yes, but sometimes I skip logs
20:58:31 <alise> I read for fun, not to keep updated
20:58:36 <alise> Pretty sure I can start fam in the background, I can probably get away with starting HAL in the background...
20:58:41 <alise> GDM needs dbus or it won't start.
20:58:49 <alise> (Need HAL to mount stuff from Nautilus; alas.)
20:59:00 <Vorpal> alise, why not use gamin?
20:59:20 <Vorpal> alise, yes but gamin is a drop-in ABI compatible replacement for fam
20:59:30 <Vorpal> alise, which doesn't need a daemon running as root
20:59:39 <Vorpal> with all the security problems it implies
20:59:41 <alise> Presumably it needs a daemon running as $you?
21:00:02 <Vorpal> alise, normally it doesn't, it uses kernel apis, but when it needs it, it will automagically start it
21:00:08 <alise> I am, uh, not terribly worried about FAM security.
21:00:21 <alise> Vorpal: so I can just install gamin and not configure anything?
21:00:21 <Vorpal> alise, pretty sure all major distros, including ubuntu, switched to gamin
21:00:35 <Vorpal> alise, just remove the fam daemon from startup
21:00:57 <alise> it's not in startup, but i won't bother uninstalling fam, probably
21:01:16 <alise> DAEMONS=(syslog-ng !netfs @network @crond @hal dbus)
21:01:19 <Vorpal> alise, well it installs libfam.so so you can't have boths at once
21:01:26 <alise> yeah, pacman told me
21:01:34 <alise> hopefully gnome will remove the hal dependency soon.
21:01:39 <alise> since it's basically being deprecated
21:01:47 <Vorpal> alise, my DAEMONS is: DAEMONS=(syslog-ng @sensors @gpm @smartd @alsa network @iptables @ntpd @hal @ddclient @sshd aiccu @crond @ip6tables @denyhosts @postfix @mdadm @cpufreq @radvd)
21:01:54 <alise> Vorpal: you're a lunatic
21:02:00 <alise> DAEMONS=(syslog-ng !netfs @network @crond @hal dbus)
21:02:08 <Vorpal> alise, I have a lot more stuff to start
21:02:27 <alise> "speaking of HAL, time to install OSS"
21:02:28 <Vorpal> alise, you don't need an ipv6 tunnel obviously
21:02:30 <alise> (not really, gonna get clyde first)
21:02:36 <alise> Vorpal: nor do you, you just want one for the geek cred
21:02:49 <Vorpal> alise, actually I do, I use some ipv6 only irc servers
21:02:49 <Sgeo> I'm having a bit of fun with this
21:03:06 <alise> Vorpal: ok, but that's because they're run by nerds who /really/ want the geek cred to the point of being stupid about it
21:04:07 <Vorpal> alise, anyway I need all those damons
21:04:12 <Vorpal> alise, well maybe not gpm
21:04:15 <Vorpal> but apart from that yes
21:04:36 <Vorpal> and gpm is nice to have
21:04:45 <alise> I need all those Matt Damons
21:04:51 <alise> you don't need alsa >:)
21:05:01 <Vorpal> alise, well I want my mixer levels restored
21:05:11 <Vorpal> alise, and I get low latency with alsa
21:05:12 <alise> ossv4! the only sound system that rhymes with "whore"!
21:05:15 <Vorpal> so I have no issues with using it
21:05:32 <alise> I use ESD on OSSv4, oh yeah.
21:05:36 <alise> I use ESD on OSSv3, oh yeah.
21:05:48 <alise> I run Linux with the first prerelease of E17!
21:05:52 <alise> I browse with Mozilla!
21:06:04 <alise> I am the very model of an early-2000s Linux user!
21:06:52 <alise> Stupid Epiphany, listening to DPI settings.
21:07:00 <alise> The web isn't built for your idealistic notions.
21:07:20 <alise> Vorpal: if you have a high-dpi monitor then Epiphany will go "Ooh! That means I can render pt-size fonts correctly!"
21:07:25 <Vorpal> alise, besides you won't have your time set over network
21:07:28 <alise> result: websites designed on already high-dpi screens with browsers that don't do this,
21:07:28 <Vorpal> you need ntpd for that
21:07:35 <alise> get sized too small
21:07:45 <alise> i don't know why small instead of big
21:08:02 <alise> Vorpal: yeah, but i synced with ntp at the start and i think my system clock is quite good at ticking :P
21:08:21 <alise> it's default font settings in gnome it listens to
21:08:23 <alise> including font size
21:08:26 <alise> so default font size ends up not being 16px
21:08:27 <Vorpal> alise, well I run software that needs +/- a few seconds accuracy
21:08:31 <alise> so relatively-sized websites bork
21:08:44 <alise> Vorpal: yes, my clock doesn't tick out that much without waiting a good long while I'll bet
21:09:03 <Vorpal> alise, doesn't cups need hal iirc?
21:09:09 <Vorpal> or was it dbus it needed
21:09:18 <alise> i don't have a printer
21:09:24 <alise> it'd have to be a network printer too as i have no printer port :P
21:09:40 <alise> probably dbus, i doubt apple would depend on hal
21:09:43 <Vorpal> anyway <alise> DAEMONS=(syslog-ng !netfs @network @crond @hal dbus) is wrong because the hal script will start dbus and you will probably get a race condition there
21:09:55 <alise> Vorpal: one of them will fail to start dbus, no biggie
21:10:03 <Sgeo> alise, remember how I had to tell you that a wand was speed monster
21:10:09 <Sgeo> Crawl would do that for you
21:10:25 <Vorpal> alise, I'm not sure if arch init scripts do locking properly
21:10:29 <alise> metacity is quite corrigible
21:10:44 <alise> i was trying to say acceptable
21:10:50 <alise> but that isn't actually what not-incorrigible means
21:10:57 <alise> incorrigible = broken beyond the point of acceptability
21:11:01 <alise> corrigible = broken but fixable
21:11:58 <Vorpal> alise, how is metacity broken?
21:12:08 <Vorpal> alise, I find it nice and non-intrusive
21:12:08 <alise> Vorpal: fun fact: before I installed ttf-dejavu, while gnome-extras was installing -- at this point GNOME was using bitmapped fonts -- it installed evince, which caused gsfonts to install. This caused the whole desktop to switch to using the ghostscript Helvetica.
21:12:12 <alise> It was ... comical.
21:12:21 <alise> as i said, corrigible didn't have the meaning I'd like it to
21:12:44 <alise> i appear to have gotten myself addicted to my mouse-bindings setup though
21:12:59 <alise> where middle click = close window, right click = minimise/iconify, and alt+right-drag resizes
21:13:07 <alise> (as well as alt+left-drag moving)
21:13:18 <alise> those middle and right clicks are on the window title that is
21:13:39 <alise> [ehird@dinky conf.d]$ sudo ln -s ../conf.avail/70-no-bitmaps.conf .
21:13:51 <alise> Stupid fucking "helvetica".
21:15:45 <alise> HAHA I THINK I DEFEATED FEEBLE GNOME
21:15:54 <alise> :root { font-size: 16px } -- my user stylesheet
21:16:27 <Vorpal> alise, ghostscript helvetica is quite nasty iirc?
21:16:38 <alise> which is why it was so amusing
21:16:58 <Vorpal> alise, and if even I think a font is nasty, it must be horrible to you
21:17:06 <alise> now to figure out why Epiphany's documentation LIES about putting %{width=CHARS} at the end of a bookmark URL will make its toolbar textbox thing wider
21:17:23 <alise> Vorpal: well ... it was better than bitmapped helvetica at the size gnome was using it at
21:17:33 <alise> that is, the size gnome was using bitmapped helvetica at
21:17:41 <Vorpal> alise, you just proved font relativity
21:17:51 <alise> just call me Alistein
21:18:24 <alise> WHY DO YOU LIE, GNOME?!
21:19:17 <Vorpal> alise, why not just use firefox?
21:19:37 <alise> Firefox is slow and crashy. And, well, I'm trying to sign up to the GNOME cult here! Failing this, I'll just use Midori.
21:19:37 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:21:21 <alise> Strange. AliseLang#72 isn't solidifying in my head. Perhaps it's already solid...
21:21:45 <Vorpal> alise, how many have you implemented of those?
21:22:01 <alise> Uh, 0. AliseLang is the term for my current pet head-language.
21:22:09 <alise> If it's implemented it gets named and therefore ceases to be an AliseLang.
21:22:20 <alise> Crazy secret: I don't actually keep track of them!
21:23:18 <alise> Vorpal: Besides, I'd like to see you implement a compiler for a language with a good type system (above Hindley-Milner), Erlang-style code reloading, processes that communicate in a functionally pure way, and a reactor at the core multiplexing all sorts of internal and external IO including automatic epoll() on sockets and the like.
21:23:18 <Vorpal> i didn't think you did
21:23:43 <Vorpal> alise, yeah I meant how many aliselangs have been implemented so far
21:24:08 <Vorpal> alise, oh and erlang does the automatic epoll()
21:24:27 <alise> yeah, unfortunately it sucks at everything else that I like :P
21:24:41 <Vorpal> alise, you could make a new language targeting BEAM
21:24:48 <Vorpal> (beam being the erlang vm)
21:25:02 <Vorpal> that new language's compiler could do the type checking and so on
21:25:19 <alise> yeah, but the architecture would be too different wrt. the processes due to it being more functionally-oriented.
21:25:33 <Vorpal> alise, the last "it" refers to?
21:26:53 <alise> X.org 8 success story, btw:
21:27:06 <alise> I installed X.org. I installed xf86-video-intel. I ran "startx". Everything worked. All I had to do is set my keymap.
21:27:21 <alise> This is what happens when you kick HAL out of the house for being a bum.
21:27:45 <Vorpal> <alise> I installed X.org. I installed xf86-video-intel. I ran "startx". Everything worked. All I had to do is set my keymap. <-- yes and?
21:27:57 <Vorpal> alise, are you surprised in any way?
21:28:01 <alise> Well, in previous versions of X.org nothing worked because it used HAL and HAL sucked shit.
21:28:09 <alise> And you had to create an xorg.conf.
21:28:19 <alise> So, yeah, I am surprised that 8 now doesn't suck in that manner.
21:28:19 <Vorpal> alise, even with HAL you just had to set keymap, oh and tell it stop touching joysticks
21:28:27 <alise> Nope, with HAL it would often not allow me to press keys.
21:28:29 <alise> Or move the mouse.
21:28:33 <alise> Even to do Ctrl+Alt+F1.
21:28:47 <Vorpal> alise, I heard synaptics is a PITA with xorg 8 however
21:28:58 * alise enables the trackpad
21:29:12 <Vorpal> alise, synaptics driver?
21:29:14 <alise> a bit jaggedy acceleration but that's just a user settings problem
21:29:21 <Vorpal> alise, that explains it
21:29:27 <Vorpal> alise, I meant the real synaptics driver
21:29:36 <alise> well evdev works fine, seemingly
21:29:52 <Vorpal> alise, it doesn't do all the stuff like palm detection
21:30:00 * alise decides to play a game: Let's See How "Empathy" Still Sucks!
21:30:20 <alise> Attempted to open "Accounts". Nothing happens! Eternal sadness!
21:30:25 <alise> Connection: Impossible!
21:30:33 <alise> It's so intuitive!
21:30:35 <Vorpal> what the fuck is "empathy"?
21:30:46 <alise> The New New Super Hyper IM Client in GNOME.
21:30:51 <alise> It's, uh, not very mature.
21:30:55 <Vorpal> alise, what is wrong with pidgin?
21:31:14 <alise> Everything. More or less. People who use Pidgin grow to be suicidal and then eventually just develop a mortal hatred yet deep dependence on it.
21:31:18 <Vorpal> isn't pidgin gtk anyway
21:31:19 <alise> Empathy, if it /worked/, would be better.
21:31:33 <alise> [ehird@dinky ~]$ empathy-accounts [ehird@dinky ~]$
21:31:45 <Vorpal> alise, someone fail at newlines there
21:32:02 <alise> although sometimes terminals do that to me
21:32:09 <Vorpal> alise, why aren't you using a real irc client?
21:32:18 <alise> haven't got one installed yet
21:32:22 <alise> i connected while still getting gnome up
21:32:27 <alise> (I just reinstalled, since I had a bunch of stuff installed.)
21:32:37 <alise> Vorpal: Or ... I, Arsey!
21:32:50 <Vorpal> <alise> (I just reinstalled, since I had a bunch of stuff installed.) <-- wait, is this supposed to make any sense?
21:32:59 <alise> Well, I have to name my awesomely typo-knowledgical client /something/.
21:33:06 <alise> Vorpal: Not really. I just had a ton of crap and decided to start over with GNOME as the base.
21:33:11 <alise> Rather than remove the stuff I no longer needed.
21:33:16 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
21:34:10 <alise> "Bug report: empathy-accounts does nothing. Literally nothing."
21:34:33 <fizzie> There was also that "telepathy" thing; I can never keep it and empathy straight.
21:34:33 <alise> System -> Preferences -> Messaging and VOIP Accounts
21:34:36 <alise> Maybe this will pop it up.
21:34:48 <alise> fizzie: Telepathy is the underlying super-heterosexual-magic library/thing underlying Empathy.
21:34:54 <alise> It is not the most workituding of software.
21:35:11 <fizzie> It runs the IM stuff in N900, unless I misremember. :p
21:36:00 <fizzie> You can mangle libpurple's protocols into the mix somehow, though.
21:36:08 <alise> I just realised I can use GNOME PackageKit with clyde :sweet:
21:36:18 <alise> fizzie: Oh, maybe I need to install some Protocols Fuck Yeah,
21:36:44 <alise> extra/telepathy-butterfly 0.5.12-1 (telepathy) A MSN connection manager for Telepathy
21:36:53 <alise> You can tell it's modern software because they use abstract names to refer to things like MSN.
21:36:56 <Vorpal> alise, did you strace it
21:36:59 <alise> Their logo is a butterfly, so dude, let's call it butterfly.
21:37:05 <alise> extra/telepathy-gabble 0.8.14-1 (telepathy) A Jabber/XMPP connection manager for Telepathy
21:37:09 <alise> No logo? Just make some shit up!
21:37:18 <alise> Vorpal: nope, I'm just gonna install telepathy-BEAUTIFUL-BEAUTIFUL-BUTTERFLY
21:37:36 <Vorpal> alise, err, that reference seems familiar, can't place it
21:37:40 <alise> [ehird@dinky ~]$ clyde -S telepathy-beautiful-beautiful-butterfly ;; I actually typed this by mistake
21:38:11 <alise> Not a Discworld reference, I don't know if it's a reference; if it is, it wasn't intentional, or at least subconscious.
21:38:21 <alise> Vorpal: clyde is the only sane pacman-with-AUR that exists.
21:38:27 <alise> It uses libalpm instead of Let's Just Call Pacman.
21:38:35 <alise> It's what all the kids are using.
21:39:24 <Vorpal> alise, yaourt is using libalpm too iirc for some parts of it?
21:39:26 <fizzie> dpkg-query -l '*butter*' => account-plugin-butterfly 0.8, telepathy-butterfly 0.5.4-1maemo0.
21:39:53 <alise> Vorpal: Well, possibly. But yaourt is the slowest thing in existence, and clyde does All That But Better.
21:40:03 <alise> fizzie: Yay butter.
21:40:18 <Vorpal> alise, does it show recent comments?
21:40:54 <fizzie> I wonder what msn-pecan's name is referring to.
21:41:07 <fizzie> "Why msn-pecan? The short answer is: there are many problems with the Pidgin development team. It's basically impossible to implement anything there."
21:41:24 <Vorpal> alise, did it do that for you?
21:41:27 <fizzie> If only we could extract clean, renewable energy from all the complaining done by software developers.
21:41:45 <alise> Vorpal: If you gave it some -Q switch, probably.
21:41:47 <alise> Not when doing -S.
21:41:53 <alise> But, uh, you might be able to script it.
21:42:04 <alise> As a bonus, it's 1,000,000x faster and like, actually maintained.
21:42:15 <alise> fizzie: Hey, I resemble that remark.
21:42:15 <Vorpal> alise, besides yaourt is fast for me (have about 5 packages there)
21:42:24 <Vorpal> and I use pacman unless specifically doing AUR stuff
21:44:01 <alise> (have about 5 packages there) ; eh?
21:45:02 <fizzie> alise: Yes, you could power a small country (or at least a biggish city) all by yourself.
21:45:23 <alise> I should run for the presidency.
21:45:27 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
21:45:52 <alise> "Elect alise: your policy is so shit, CO2 will actually start getting sucked back up into machines."
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21:46:47 <alise> I think Ubuntu may ship with msn-pecan; it says WLM there instead of MSN, iirc.
21:47:11 <alise> "How msn-pecan fixed a 6 year old bug, how Pidgin didn’t, and stole the fix" ;; Open source software: It's THEFT.
21:47:47 <fizzie> Loose codes sink ships.
21:48:13 <fizzie> The comments part was a bit amusing.
21:48:39 <alise> "He changed his mind when I explained that the core parts of libpurple’s (Pidgin) msn were either developed or refined by me anyway, and therefore, Pidgin devs probably didn’t have the expertise required to identify this problem."
21:48:44 <alise> I am God, and Pidgin developers are mere Peasants.
21:48:52 <alise> They Cannot Understand My Perfect Code.
21:48:53 <fizzie> "(18:31:37) felipec left the room
21:48:53 <fizzie> (18:32:21) khc: actually, I knew what was required to fix that timeout bug before that, but that discussion prompted me to actually do it"
21:49:18 <alise> A thief *and* a liar!
21:53:00 <alise> Hmm, it seems not-so-certain that the pacman packagekit thing will actually call out instead of using libalpm, which would not allow clyde to work its AUR magic.
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22:03:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Perhaps I should try proving some trivial computational equivalences with some esolangs in Coq.
22:08:03 <distant_figure> Could anyone tell me the name of the game wherein you have to propose and vote on rules to win?
22:20:37 -!- oerjan has joined.
22:22:54 <oerjan> but he is never around. he can be emailed in emergencies.
22:23:27 <oerjan> i don't think anyone else has more than wiki admin access
22:23:44 <Phantom_Hoover> It's just something that would be really really useful.
22:23:51 <oerjan> (those are ais523 and keymaker)
22:24:05 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, it's a CS wiki with no way of rendering mathematical notation.
22:24:22 <oerjan> yeah that's a bit awkward
22:24:49 <Phantom_Hoover> So why can't we get MediaWiki's built-in TeX renderer installed?
22:25:37 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, graue?
22:25:58 <Vorpal> oh yeah oerjan answered that
22:26:15 <fizzie> It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a graue.
22:26:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, did you see MC Frontalot rapping about infocom btw?
22:26:46 * oerjan isn't sure if he's supposed to make that public
22:26:59 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, ask oerjan to contact graue about this then
22:27:11 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, learn to delegate
22:27:12 <fizzie> There's an email address on the front page.
22:27:21 -!- cheater99 has joined.
22:27:24 <fizzie> http://esolangs.org/ has a "please contact graue" mailto link.
22:27:24 <oerjan> delegating to me is a hopeless proposition
22:30:11 <Vorpal> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarhj
22:30:19 <Vorpal> http://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=159&artikel=3942754
22:30:32 <Vorpal> I was in that room a few months ago
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22:32:11 <Vorpal> oerjan, yes but I mean, lucky it didn't happen when I was in there
22:34:03 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, "Ceiling fell down in auditorium"
22:34:17 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I attended lectures in that room during last spring
22:34:47 <oerjan> *MWAHAHAHA* now i know where Vorpal is
22:34:53 <Vorpal> oerjan, you knew this before
22:34:54 <oerjan> until i forget again, that is
22:35:09 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh, there were no lectures, that starts next week
22:35:17 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yes that means I'm somewhere near there
22:35:59 <oerjan> Vorpal: all i recall from before is that you denied being at uppsala
22:36:14 <Vorpal> oerjan, well yeah Uppsala != Örebro
22:36:23 <Vorpal> oerjan, and that was like today or yesterday
22:36:27 <fizzie> Possibly you should invest a bit more on maintenance and repairs there...
22:36:29 <oerjan> yes, thus logical consistency is saved
22:36:44 <oerjan> fizzie: but but, that would cost money!
22:36:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, was supposedly renovated in 1995
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22:36:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, company who did it is now out of business
22:37:16 <oerjan> yeah and _why_ did they go out of business, we may ask
22:37:31 <Vorpal> na.se (local paper) writes that they were going to inspect all other ceilings built with the same technique.
22:37:38 <Vorpal> http://na.se/nyheter/2.2503/1.928537-innertak-rasade-pa-universitetet
22:38:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Since it's not TC, and all programs halt, which isn't necessary for FSA and PDA.
22:39:07 <oerjan> bah it's näse in swedish
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22:39:29 <Vorpal> considering the huge amounts of snow this winter I can only be glad it didn't fall down then
22:39:37 <Vorpal> since then I had lectures there
22:39:42 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it can definitely compute things like ackermann, i believe
22:40:09 <oerjan> you need to prove things well ordered for such iirc
22:40:32 <oerjan> um the brackets problem? matching brackets?
22:40:42 <oerjan> that's _very_ low compared to ackermann.
22:40:51 <oerjan> not more than LOGSPACE
22:41:37 <oerjan> above primitive recursive, for ackermann
22:41:50 <oerjan> which means it's far beyond say EXPTIME
22:42:05 <oerjan> or EXPSPACE for that matter
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22:42:31 <Vorpal> oerjan, btw I felt the last iwc was a bit stony
22:42:45 <Vorpal> (not sure that pun works in English)
22:43:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Esolangs seem to be appallingly poor wrt different CCs.
22:43:43 <Phantom_Hoover> They seem to be limited entirely to PDAs, FSAs and TMs.
22:43:53 <Vorpal> oerjan, that would be "on drugs" afaik?
22:44:00 <Vorpal> oerjan, which is completely different
22:44:36 <Vorpal> oerjan, I meant more like "a bit awkward", though not exactly that either.
22:44:43 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: well it's a bit awkward to get most others without having a cutoff function of some sort?
22:45:33 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what CC is deadfish
22:45:35 <oerjan> well there are various examples i guess.
22:45:47 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and what CC is HQ9+ ?
22:46:06 <oerjan> deadfish is more than FSA, perhaps more than PDA
22:46:08 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, is that a rigorous CC?
22:46:18 <Vorpal> oerjan, how can it be that?
22:46:35 <Vorpal> does it have any flow control?
22:46:39 <oerjan> well "more than" as in contains things outside it, not as in contains all of it
22:47:23 <Phantom_Hoover> However, I say "trivial" because it has no flow control whatsoever.
22:47:28 <Vorpal> oerjan, so they are overlapping sets
22:47:31 <oerjan> i don't _expect_ you can do squaring, increment and decrement with a PDA, although maybe there is a clever way
22:47:49 <Vorpal> why can't we have strict subsets
22:48:35 <oerjan> hm the Q command of HQ9+ might be awkward to get inside PDA too
22:48:37 <Vorpal> hm what about bounded data storage but infinite code storage?
22:49:28 <Phantom_Hoover> You just print the source from whatever little cache you have it in.
22:49:38 <oerjan> Vorpal: um what does that even mean, if code is fixed at the outset it gives you nothing infinite for a given program, otherwise you might have full lambda calculus...
22:50:17 <Sgeo_> Corpses are NOT food
22:50:28 * Sgeo_ attempts to drill that into himself
22:50:37 <oerjan> yes, but PDA's have no cache to put the source in. you can print it once forward and once backward, is about all.
22:51:20 <oerjan> oh and if you interleave it with Q commands it gets even more awkward
22:51:40 <Vorpal> oerjan, a FSM could do multiplication, no?
22:52:17 <pikhq> Or Flying Spaghetti Monster.
22:52:31 <Vorpal> but in this case not so
22:52:43 <pikhq> I'm quite positive the FSM could do multiplication.
22:53:15 <Vorpal> isn't a BSM in the same CC as a FSA?
22:53:30 <Vorpal> and since computers are BSM and they can do multiplication...
22:54:27 <oerjan> you cannot do multiplication an unlimited number of times though
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22:54:49 <Vorpal> oerjan, true, you will run out of memory, or states, at some point
22:55:52 <oerjan> in deadfish, iisssssss (n s'es) gives you 2^(2^n), or 2^n bits. which means deadfish is inside EXPSPACE, i believe
22:56:09 <oerjan> as a function of program size
23:00:31 <oerjan> and an o command after that would print Theta(2^n) digits, so it needs at _least_ EXPTIME.
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23:28:21 <pikhq> *sigh* The US's treatment of post-secondary education.
23:28:32 <alise> The US's treatment of ARCHAEOLOGY.
23:28:50 <pikhq> Near as I can tell, the *simplest* way to go to college in the US without being in debt forever is to get married.
23:29:07 <alise> Get married ... to a horse.
23:29:34 <alise> Can I get a verily
23:29:45 <pikhq> By being married, you can apply for financial aid based on your *own* assets and income. Rather than yours *and* your parents.
23:29:53 -!- alise has quit (Client Quit).
23:30:16 <pikhq> (because you suddenly cease to be a "dependent" according to the financial aid department)
23:31:10 -!- alise has joined.
23:31:43 <alise> Or the popular hit TV show, "that's what I call archaeology"?
23:32:16 <pikhq> Alternately, one could kill your parents and hide the evidence.
23:32:17 <alise> Can I get an AFFIRMATIVE?!
23:32:21 <alise> pikhq: Always the best advice
23:32:44 <alise> Violence is never discouragable.
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23:34:16 <alise> pikhq: DejaVu Sans sucks so much when not hinted.
23:34:25 <alise> What kind of crazy person designs a font that /only works when hinted/ and isn't Microsoft?
23:39:14 <Sgeo_> alise, watch me somehow survive Crawl!
23:39:21 <Sgeo_> On, um, the server
23:39:35 <alise> Sgeo_: anyway, it still gives me a headache
23:39:39 <alise> keeping to the middle square like that
23:39:46 <alise> although iirc you can disable that
23:40:27 <pikhq> Mmm, Mountain Dew...
23:40:52 <Sgeo_> ##crawl says that the Crawl wiki is horrible
23:40:58 <Sgeo_> Either out of date or otherwise wrong
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23:41:39 <alise> Sgeo_: you can fix that middle square thing right??
23:41:48 <Sgeo_> alise, I have no idea
23:42:00 <Sgeo_> But levels are rather huge anyway
23:42:10 <alise> Sgeo_: doesn't it give you a headache?
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23:45:22 <alise> Archaeology: ILLEGAL IN SEVENTEEN STATES
23:45:30 <SgeoN1> What, just because I'm not playing right now?
23:45:42 -!- yorick has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
23:46:00 <SgeoN1> Obviously, Archaeology is illegal because of me
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23:50:08 <alise> "Good call. PayPal is a festering shit-filled ass boil on the bloated rotting carcass of a dead syphilitic whore floating in a fetid pool of vomit, piss, and misery."
23:50:16 <alise> pikhq: My italic DejaVu Sans is serifed. Explain.
23:53:56 <alise> (Only God can explain.)
23:55:13 <alise> ==> Edit fontconfig.install (highly recommended for security reasons)? [Y/n] y
23:55:13 <alise> gedit: error while loading shared libraries: libcairo.so.2: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
23:55:18 <alise> (meant to say n anyway)
23:55:26 <alise> pikhq: I think it's because I nuked fontconfig.
23:55:32 <alise> But, wait, it's happening in Epiphany too.
23:55:49 <alise> (Epiphany seems to be using the old versions of stuff.)
23:58:36 <oerjan> alise: it was initially intended to be a DeusVult Sans with ser_aphs_, but god made some horrible misspellings
23:59:38 <SgeoN1> My dad's AV claimed that 7zip may be suspicious
00:02:01 <oerjan> yeah zipping sounds suspicious, probably some questionably legal activity
00:03:14 -!- alise has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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00:04:19 <SgeoN1> Note that it's not my dad claiming it, although he did decide he'd rather be safe than sorry
00:04:32 <alise> i think we've pretty much covered the "your dad is crazy" front
00:04:50 <oerjan> SgeoN1: no but he _would_ choose that kind of AV, wouldn't he
00:05:28 <SgeoN1> It was a few minutes ago, why would I remember?
00:07:30 <oerjan> this would be a good time for a pun on really wanting to buy coffee, if intel hadn't run that into the ground already
00:07:37 <alise> McAfee AV is probably the worst consumer product ever released.
00:07:41 <alise> oerjan: wait, what?
00:07:51 -!- Guest76379 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
00:08:09 <oerjan> well reddit, commenting on intel buying mcafee.
00:08:35 <alise> oerjan: how coffee tho :|
00:08:44 <alise> wait INTEL BOUGHT MCAFFE?
00:09:32 <SgeoN1> Hmm, I could take the place of the gone JokeExplainer
00:09:45 -!- yorick__ has joined.
00:10:07 <oerjan> alas, poor JokeExplainer. I knew him, barely.
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00:12:41 <oerjan> http://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/d3d8r/just_a_normal_day_for_an_intel_ceo
00:12:43 -!- wareya has joined.
00:12:52 <oerjan> it's in there somewhere, among the rest of the jokes
00:13:09 <Sgeo> alise, will you watch me fail at Crawl now?
00:13:39 <alise> Sgeo: as soon as i finish messing this up sure
00:13:54 <alise> [[Intel CEO: "We need antivirus, can someone buy me McAfee?" Few hours later: "Done." "Great, which version?" "Version ... ?"]]
00:14:06 <coppro> heard it at least twice already
00:14:12 <alise> yes, well, I had no idea they'd even bought McAffe until three seconds ago.
00:14:20 <oerjan> it wasn't knew when it was on reddit either
00:14:50 <pikhq> Antivirus programs are some of the worst consumer products ever released.
00:14:54 <oerjan> the McAffe misspelling should work so much better in german
00:15:04 <alise> how does gargoyle display better than my OS ...
00:15:08 <pikhq> McAfee is just worse than most others.
00:15:16 <alise> pikhq: nod32 is excellent on windows btw
00:15:32 <alise> you have to pirate it, but it takes up ~0 memory, is written entirely in assembly, and is one of the most effective for detecting shit there is
00:15:40 <alise> (1st or 2nd place)
00:17:02 <alise> Sgeo: well, or pay for it, I GUESS.
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00:18:26 <Sgeo> Ok, I'm back on Crawl
00:18:34 -!- relet has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
00:18:40 <alise> Sgeo: telnet address?
00:18:58 <Sgeo> Not telnet, ssh
00:19:09 <Sgeo> crawl.akrasiac.org user joshua password joshua
00:19:17 <coppro> how do you use an arbitrary font in LaTeX?
00:19:24 <alise> bash: ssh: command not found
00:19:26 <alise> coppro: arbitrary what font?
00:19:31 <alise> coppro: TeX has its own font system
00:19:37 * Sgeo mindboggles at alise
00:19:40 <alise> if you want OpenType fonts, you have to use XeLaTeX
00:19:44 <alise> Sgeo: haven't installed it yet :)
00:19:57 <alise> coppro: so "google for a TeX version" basically.
00:20:01 <alise> there usually is one
00:20:04 <alise> + a supporting latex package
00:20:09 <coppro> dammit, I was afraid of that
00:20:19 <alise> coppro: you /could/ use XeLaTeX... but it kinda sucks
00:20:30 <alise> pikhq: yeah, but ...
00:20:32 <alise> why would you want to
00:20:51 <pikhq> Currently? No good reason; it's very much a work-in-progress.
00:21:17 <pikhq> In the future? Microtypography + OpenType. Need I say more?
00:21:34 <alise> Sgeo: you are impresent
00:21:39 <alise> pikhq: yeah but Lua :P
00:21:40 <Sgeo> alise, Sgeoster
00:21:49 <Sgeo> because I forgot that I registered Sgeo
00:22:05 <Sgeo> And I'm likely to die right now due to stupidity
00:22:27 <pikhq> alise: They're using it well, at least.
00:22:40 <pikhq> Though I strongly suspect a Scheme would be better-suited.
00:23:11 <Sgeo> alise, you're watching now?
00:23:24 <alise> it's just like nethack but boring!
00:23:29 <Sgeo> alise, boring? How
00:23:33 <Sgeo> It automates boring stuff!
00:23:43 <Sgeo> No price-ID, no Elbereth-spam
00:23:46 <alise> i'll have to write NetFuck
00:23:56 <alise> no Elbereth spam? but that's the whole fun thing about Elbereth
00:23:59 <Sgeo> Automated travel between levels
00:24:05 <alise> E-Elbereth<RET>E-Elbereth<RET>E-Elbereth<RET>E-Elbereth<RET>
00:24:27 <alise> serves him right for betraying nethack
00:24:39 <alise> which level is that
00:24:56 <Sgeo> alise, switching to the name Sgeo
00:25:45 <alise> Sgeo: psht, it's not as good as A Dungeon
00:26:16 <Sgeo> Demigod is a species
00:26:18 <Sgeo> alise, playing again
00:26:32 <alise> Sgeo: A Dungeon is my now-named roguelike!
00:26:38 <alise> for alise dungeon, obvs
00:27:05 <Sgeo> alise, you watching?
00:27:45 <Sgeo> 5 is rest until something interesting happens
00:27:56 <alise> i have to be up at 9 :)
00:28:08 <Sgeo> alise, should I start singing OpenBSD songs at you?
00:28:33 <Sgeo> corpses aren't food
00:28:37 <Sgeo> Unless they're cut
00:28:50 <Sgeo> And the cut corpses won't be eaten unless hungry
00:29:03 <Sgeo> And I wasn't expecting that
00:29:10 <Sgeo> Kind of obvious though, really
00:29:44 <alise> corpses should be food...
00:30:41 <Sgeo> Probably they're yelling at me for walking around with >100% health
00:31:27 <Sgeo> Well, that was pathetic
00:33:48 <Sgeo> Corpses are color-coded
00:33:55 <Sgeo> The green means it's poisonous
00:34:09 <alise> it sounds too easy
00:34:35 <Sgeo> Supposedly, spoiled NetHack is easier
00:34:46 <Sgeo> Also, it's meant to not need spoilers
00:35:00 <Sgeo> There's a lot of things the interface does for you
00:35:10 <Sgeo> Mechanics are obvious, etc.
00:35:26 <Sgeo> erm, obvious is the wrong word
00:41:31 <Sgeo> There's an escape hatch in the ceiling
00:44:04 <alise> Sgeo: Should I call my roguelike Squirm, or something else? :P
00:44:11 <alise> Crawl, Squirm, ...
00:44:23 <Sgeo> Only if it has a Crawllike UI
00:44:32 <Sgeo> Otherwise, name it something more hacky
00:44:56 <Sgeo> Whee, autoexplore
00:45:09 <alise> Sgeo: it has an it-like UI :P
00:45:32 <Sgeo> Are you watching me?
00:46:55 <Sgeo> Stupid cursed weapon...
00:47:48 <Sgeo> Well, that was a waste of a magic mapping
00:48:40 <Sgeo> Short range controlled (if by scroll) teleport
00:48:46 <Sgeo> Good for emergencies
00:48:51 <alise> why is it called a blink?
00:48:56 <Sgeo> I have no idea
00:49:03 <Sgeo> Well, most teleports in Crawl are delayed..
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00:54:33 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> ??Jessica
00:54:33 <Sgeo> <Henzell> jessica[1/1]: Early unique human wizard who is very easy to kill, but between haste, slow, pain, blink, and possibly a wand you might not get a chance. Either a pushover or worse than Sigmund, depending on the will of the RNG.
00:54:52 <alise> THE SCARIEST OF NAMES
00:55:01 <Sgeo> And she's dead
00:58:51 <Sgeo> Check out my non-diagonal non-orthogonal aim!
01:00:23 <Sgeo> alise, see this?
01:00:29 <Sgeo> It means I'm going to teleport soon
01:00:41 <alise> <Sgeo> Check out my non-diagonal non-orthogonal aim!
01:00:44 <alise> also, *non-cardinal
01:00:55 <Sgeo> alise, you weren't watching?
01:01:07 <alise> i mean how does that even work
01:01:28 <Sgeo> Also, if there was an enemy nearby, it would autoaim
01:03:11 <Sgeo> alise, it will autoaim, watch
01:03:46 <Sgeo> Well, this seems unhealthy
01:05:17 <Sgeo> alise, I'm going to make autoexplore skip that area
01:05:44 <Sgeo> As soon as I figure out how
01:08:13 <alise> GENTLY, ARCHAEOLOGY
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01:18:27 <Sgeo> Ok though, that worm may be trouble
01:18:41 <Sgeo> Anything yellow in inventory is an escape item
01:18:51 <Sgeo> I have four scrolls of teleportation
01:18:58 <Sgeo> They're not immediate though, so...
01:20:24 <Vorpal> <Sgeo> Nono <-- double negative, so yes?
01:21:48 <Vorpal> <Sgeo> Check out my non-diagonal non-orthogonal aim! <-- ?
01:23:39 <Sgeo> In NetHack, effects, including ranged attacks, can only go up, down, left, right, up-right, up-left, down-right, down-left
01:23:52 <Sgeo> Erm, screenwise I mean
01:34:12 <Sgeo> alise, I die...
01:40:38 <GreaseMonkey> it'd be interesting trying a knightspace renderer
01:57:23 <Sgeo> Oooh, an altar
01:57:29 <Sgeo> Sadly, altars don't do all that much
01:57:38 <Sgeo> Erm no, they do
01:57:46 <Sgeo> Just, I've been told to not do anything with them yet
01:57:54 <Sgeo> Apparently, it's how you convert to a religion
01:57:58 <Sgeo> And other stuff maybe?
01:58:02 <Sgeo> Not BUC testing though
01:58:19 <Sgeo> <Henzell> altar[2/2]: Unlike other roguelikes, you won't be sacrificing much - altars are generally only used for religious conversion. You also can't use them to discover curse status, sorry. Silly Hacker.
02:00:52 <Vorpal> <GreaseMonkey> knight moves <-- right
02:01:03 <Vorpal> <GreaseMonkey> it'd be interesting trying a knightspace renderer <-- hm?
02:01:31 <Vorpal> Sgeo, of course you BUC test with an altar
02:01:56 <Vorpal> Sgeo, assuming nethack that is
02:02:37 <Sgeo> YOu know what they say about assumptions...
02:02:42 <Vorpal> Sgeo, asking rodney ?? altar
02:02:48 <Vorpal> gives way too many lines
02:02:55 <alise> Vorpal is retarded :p
02:02:58 <Vorpal> Sgeo, you said "<Sgeo> In NetHack, effects, including ranged attacks, can only go up, down, left, right, up-right, up-left, down-right, down-left" above
02:03:01 <Vorpal> thus I assumed nethack
02:05:30 <Vorpal> Sgeo, so which rougelike?
02:05:48 <Sgeo> Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup
02:06:08 <alise> Vorpal: *roguelike
02:07:36 <Sgeo> Was wandering around without full magic again
02:08:58 <Sgeo> My ghost killed someone else
02:10:39 <GreaseMonkey> Vorpal: i mean it'd be interesting trying to render a scene where you step by knight moves or something like that
02:11:30 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, render, as in 3D render?
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02:25:22 <Sgeo> I just want to slap coppro in here so that alise has a chance to either slap coppro or do some other alise-y thing that probably amounts to the opposite of a slap
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02:26:05 <alise> Sgeo: it's 2:21, i have to be up at 9, unfortunately, i am practically paralysed due to being creeped out
02:26:33 <Sgeo> Hopefully not by what I just said :/
02:26:38 <alise> http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/d4gu8/askreddit_what_are_some_unexplainable_things_you/
02:26:57 <Sgeo> Also, I can always sing you an OpenBSD song
02:27:02 <Sgeo> I actually like the OpenBSD songs
02:27:54 <alise> i literally cannot move
02:28:18 <Sgeo> Back when I was twenty/They said I wouldn't last/All that I believed in/Were the teachings of the past
02:28:38 <Sgeo> All I ever wanted/Was to keep the world secure/And all the criticizing/Was something I'd endure
02:29:05 * Sgeo skips ahead a bit
02:29:21 <Sgeo> Some say that I'm a hero/But I'm just being me/With my filter I can hide/My true identity
02:30:20 <Sgeo> Welcome to the future/One very rich man/runs the Earth with/one multinational/owns your stuff/and owns your birth
02:31:11 <Sgeo> Way back in my time/Open source kept/everyone choosing/People knew the insides/Of devices they were using
02:31:34 <Sgeo> Go to sleep and I'll stop
02:40:22 <alise> yeah, not that easy when you're paralysed
02:40:38 <Sgeo> Should I summon a newt to bite you?
02:41:43 <coppro> alise: my scam worked!
02:41:56 <alise> (opposite of slap, Sgeo)
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11:17:56 <ais523> <bobmcbob> both the C# camp and the Java camp are desperately trying to use this lawsuit to "prove" that their language is superior.
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11:18:14 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if we can convert everyone to esolangs like that?
11:35:57 <fizzie> A peculiarity: if you /part from our official state religion, any less than 12 year old children automatically follow, which I guess makes sense; but apparently you can also forcibly dis-join such children (without even asking them) even if you're still going to stay as a member yourself.
11:36:35 <fizzie> I wonder if any homes use this as a sanction; "you'd better behave or I'll kick you out of the church".
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12:00:42 <Vorpal> ais523, oh? what is it they are suing about?
12:01:03 <ais523> alleged patent infringement in Android
12:01:11 * ais523 vaguely wonders how Vorpal managed to miss this
12:01:17 <ais523> it's been all over the tech news for about a week now
12:02:00 <Vorpal> ais523, btw did I mention that the ceiling in an auditorium at the university I attend fell down a few days ago? I had lectures in that very room this spring.
12:02:17 <ais523> that's sort-of embarassing for the ceiling manufacturer, actually
12:02:18 <Vorpal> ais523, maybe you weren't in here yesterday then
12:02:33 <ais523> people don't really want much from ceilings, but not falling is a major part of it
12:02:39 <Vorpal> ais523, they are apparently no longer in business according to the local paper
12:03:00 <Vorpal> (when the ceiling was replaced)
12:03:14 <fizzie> There's a company called ZenRobotics, a sort of a spin-off of people from this university department and others; it was called Zendroid at first, but Google was all "you can't call it that, we have this Android thing".
12:03:41 <fizzie> See e.g. the latest newspost at http://www.zenrobotics.com/?page=news -- they have a rather unserious way of writing "press releases", if you can call 'em that.
12:03:55 <fizzie> ""We're not saying that Mika was key for Google's success story, and we're not alleging that Google's withdrawal from China is in any way related to this coup de grace from our side. Then again, there are many things we are not saying or alleging!", says ZenRobotics's CEO Jaakko Särelä.
12:04:02 <fizzie> "Well, actually I was the Lead Developer for the Latitude China team, but I had nothing to do...", starts Mika when Head of Special Ops Mr. Peltomaa drops him handily with a swift blow to the neck. "Mika has no more comments on the matter as he's apparently unconscious", sums up Mr. Peltomaa. The press is requested to leave the ZenRobotics office, amid rumors of harsh censorship."
12:04:16 <fizzie> (They hired a guy away from Google, which is what the newspost is about.)
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12:59:01 <Vorpal> hm is there any esolang that specifies an upper length for valid programs? And is of trivial computational class (like HQ9+ or such)
12:59:40 <Vorpal> ais523, maybe you might know the answer to that?
13:00:15 <Vorpal> I realised that you can implement some such esolangs in file(1) but it has to be even more limited than HQ9+ for that
13:00:21 <ais523> hmm, original Malbolge, maybe
13:00:30 <Vorpal> ais523, flow control, too complicated
13:00:34 <ais523> but it's more a bounded-storage machine
13:01:06 <Vorpal> there must be a finite, and small, number of valid programs
13:02:01 <ais523> hmm, so you can compile into a lookup table?
13:02:33 <Vorpal> something like h: output "Hello, ", w: output "world", u: output "user", would work with the additional clause that every instruction must only be used once in a single program
13:03:06 <Vorpal> wouldn't need a full lookup table I think, some tricky submatches in file.magic would probably reduce the size of implementing it a bit
13:03:44 <Vorpal> ais523, but yes, more or less you need to encode it in lookup table for the code, you can use values from the file though in the output.
13:03:59 <Vorpal> Loops would be impossible unless you can look up all variants in a lookup table
13:05:39 <fizzie> You can do some pretty complicated things, according to man 5 magic.
13:06:27 <fizzie> Especially the test-type "indirect": "Starting at the given offset, consult the magic database again." And you can read the "given offset" from the file.
13:06:50 <Vorpal> maybe you could do loops then
13:07:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, I wonder what computational class it is in then
13:07:58 <fizzie> There's also some sort of offset that's updated by regex tests that might let you do conditionals. I haven't written any "code" for file, and the man page isn't horribly clear.
13:08:31 <fizzie> More conditionals than just the "if true, output a message; if not, then don't" sort.
13:08:39 <Vorpal> there is no memory though, so definitely sub-tc
13:12:25 <fizzie> Oh, right, there's that whole subtest hierarchy, so you can definitely do conditionals that do "indirect"-type test on different offsets depending on a main test. It's too bad there's only that one input file, and that one single offset pointer to it.
13:14:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm "Offsets do not need to be constant, but can also be read from the file being examined."
13:15:02 <Vorpal> seems you can get any constants from the file in memory, but arithmetics seems extremely limited
13:16:20 <fizzie> You can do the usual sort of arithmetics (+-*/%&|^) with one operand from the file, another a constant in the "source".
13:16:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, yes but I still don't think you can really compute anything
13:16:57 <fizzie> But about the only sort of state you have is the offset to the file being examined.
13:18:47 <fizzie> I think it depends whether you want the magic(5) contents to be a fixed thing to execute a "program" in the file it's inspecting, or whether you're willing to allow a combination of specifically crafted file *and* a magic(5) "source" to be a "file(1) program" to compute something.
13:20:13 <Vorpal> fizzie, the latter sounds really hard to classify
13:20:31 <fizzie> Even in the latter case it sounds pretty tricky to do anything nontrivial.
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13:22:43 <fizzie> But, for example, if you make a file that has the bytes 0x00 0x01 0x02 .. 0xff, in order, then your magic(5) file can use the "current offset" value directly in the tests, since the value at the offset equals the offset. (Of course with the offset limited depending on how large a file you want.)
13:24:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, I can see how you would do HQ9+ except for Q and +... H9 hm... extremely silly language
13:25:30 <Vorpal> the issue with Q is that while you could do it, it would mess up the offset
13:25:41 <Vorpal> so you probably no longer have any clue where to continue the program
13:30:37 <fizzie> I'm not sure about that. The relative-offset (&0) tests are relative to "the last up-level field", so if in a ">>&0 string Q" you detect the command, in a ">>>"-level test you could then print out the complete file, if it's possible to do so with one test. Still, I haven't completely thought this through. And even HQ9 is still pretty boring.
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13:32:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, you will need a indirect match to continue though, no?
13:34:28 <fizzie> No, I think you just need to do something like ">&1 indirect" entry, where that's on a level where the Q execution hasn't messed up the correct value of "&n"; I think "&1 indirect" should mean "starting from the next byte, consult the database again".
13:34:56 <fizzie> I'm not sure how to make it terminate; I don't know what values the tests "return" if you refer to outside the file.
13:36:09 <fizzie> It might even be that the "consult the magic database again" means that on the second run, constant-offset "0" would refer to what was the parameter of indirect. It's not very well documented in this manpage.
13:40:35 <fizzie> It seems to, which would make "Q" very hard to do in the simple architecture where you'd continue with ">1 indirect" after each matched HQ9 command. Because I don't know how you could get to the real beginning of the file to print it out.
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13:41:55 <fizzie> Right, if you just do a 0 regex .* %s, it will only print the half of the file starting from the Q.
13:43:00 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/ZbaY
13:43:30 <fizzie> Maybe if you just respec the Q command to be a "half-quine"; at least it's novel and new and other synonyms.
13:43:58 <fizzie> (There's some newline issues in that example, but those are minor.)
13:53:34 <Vorpal> fizzie, it prints out <newline>?
13:53:59 <fizzie> Yes, I'm not sure how to stick a literal newline in there, if it's possible at all.
13:54:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, you could make the interpreter command a bit more complex, like appending sed 's/<newline>/\n/g' or such
13:57:57 <fizzie> You can replace the "0 regex .* %s" with the potentially more appealing "0 string >\0 %s"; I think both have the problem that they don't match across newlines, but you can just strip those from the hq9 source. Still, the "half-quine" problem is a worse one.
14:01:49 <fizzie> If you use "indirect" to restart the processing, I'm not sure how to get around that. If you move the "starting offset" forward to use it as an IP, it doesn't seem possible to get back to earlier parts of the file; but if you do "indirect" with a start offset of 0, it is as if you'd start the whole thing from the beginning, since there's no state you could use to distinguish from where you were.
14:04:00 <Vorpal> fizzie, 99 bottles seems to break it hm
14:04:08 <fizzie> Oh, I didn't add 9 in at all.
14:04:11 <Vorpal> a few lines of it work, but more and it prints it incorrectly
14:04:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, yes I added it
14:04:31 <fizzie> Maybe it has some length limits in there.
14:04:39 <Vorpal> hq9.magic, 3: Warning: description `99 bottles of beer on the wall, 99 bottles of beer.<newline>Tak' truncated
14:05:27 <Vorpal> hq9.magic, 4: Warning: offset `l, 42 bottles of beer.<newline>Take one down and pass it [...] Go to the store and buy some more, 99 bottles of beer on the wall.<newline>' invalid
14:05:46 <fizzie> Does it happen if you do it with multiple messages? Something like "0 string 9" followed by ">0 default x first line of song", ">0 default x second line of song", ...?
14:06:03 <fizzie> ("offset default x" should be a test that always matches.)
14:07:52 <fizzie> It might still truncate the full message, though.
14:08:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, it seems to not print the default one
14:08:32 <Vorpal> wait, maybe I'm doing it wrong
14:08:42 <Vorpal> ah yes needs the x test
14:09:04 <fizzie> Yes, "default" is just the data type.
14:11:05 <Vorpal> <n>Take one down and pass it around, 98 bottles of beer on the is the max length hm
14:17:50 <fizzie> Apparently if you use an indirect offset with the indirect type -- something like ">(0.b) indirect" -- it ignores the current starting offset from the previous "indirect", and instead uses the offset read from the file directly. So if you have a 0 there, you'll get back to the real beginning of the file. But it still doesn't help, since there's no state, and when you're back at the beginning of the file, it's exactly identical as when you first ran it; so you c
14:17:50 <fizzie> an't go back to where you were.
14:18:03 <fizzie> Also, there's a bus I need to catch; away for now, back late in the evening. ->
14:26:11 <fizzie> Assuming you can do a relative indirect offset (I think you can), and are allowed to do a simple transformation, which unfortunately will take N*S*A of size (where N is the length of the input, S is the number of states, and A the size of the input alphabet), I think you can do a FSM. :p
14:27:35 <fizzie> (Basically, you'd use the current offset to denote both the position in input as well as the state -- giving N*S places -- and in each place put the transition table of that state, which of course has A entries.)
14:29:26 <fizzie> Of course anything capable of comfortably building the special input file would probably be more than enough to directly do the FSM itself. But at least the magic db would be very simple, and generic.
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15:30:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, current hq9 file: http://sprunge.us/BNUe
15:31:03 <Vorpal> hm there seems to be an issue with adding a space at the start of lines
15:31:42 <Vorpal> need to move <n> about
15:38:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, here is a new version http://sprunge.us/gXJf
15:38:34 <Vorpal> including the wrapper script
15:51:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm it might be able to do Q
15:51:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, by heavy preprocessing
15:52:44 <Vorpal> basically insert a the length to end of file after ever Q pointing to the end of the file (after taking these length fields into account of course), then append the original source, That way you could get the original source by using that offset
15:53:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, that ammount of pre-processing makes it "not really file(1) any longer" though
15:54:21 <Vorpal> hm you could mark it with a # (you need to know when to stop reading the file anyway, so you need a marker somewhere) and then use search and skip the length value
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16:06:57 <Vorpal> this seems to work assuming no newlines in input file
16:07:06 <Vorpal> could of course escape those
16:10:21 <Phantom_Hoover> 15:28:50 <pikhq> Near as I can tell, the *simplest* way to go to college in the US without being in debt forever is to get married. ← a solution appears immediately.
16:11:32 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, married? how so?
16:12:11 <Vorpal> as in "why would getting married help avoid debt?"
16:12:11 <Phantom_Hoover> That's easy enough if you can find someone of the opposite sex who also wants into college.
16:13:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, in the logs he said it was because they calculated things based on your own income and assets rather than with those of your parents added.
16:13:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, this one works assuming no | in the input source file: http://sprunge.us/NKiR
16:14:30 <Phantom_Hoover> I think in Scotland university is actually free for Scottish students.
16:15:25 <Vorpal> in Sweden it is free for students from EU (or was it from Schegen maybe?)
16:16:04 <Vorpal> like EU + Norway, Switzerland, Listenstein and one or two other countries
16:16:36 <Vorpal> it used to be free for students outside EU too, but this is the last year of that.
16:18:18 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, ah it is "Schengen"
16:18:31 <Vorpal> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area
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16:57:07 <leBMD> greetings, #esoteric.
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17:02:15 <leBMD> So, how about them yankees?
17:05:20 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, nice, was he going to enable that thing?
17:05:55 <Phantom_Hoover> And that if he didn't respond for a month, to email him again.
17:07:10 <leBMD> So, here's a random poll: what languages are you guys currently doing?
17:07:38 <leBMD> when I say "currently doing" I mean "maybe messing around every once in a while"
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17:09:48 <Vorpal> leBMD, do you count "implementing interpreters for" as well as "programming in"?
17:10:37 <leBMD> I've been doing Befunge, along with contemplating ways to make a Noobinary interpretor.
17:10:41 <Vorpal> befunge98, brainfuck, INTERCAL and a few more. Special for today is implementing HQ9+ in file(1)
17:11:29 <Vorpal> while file(1) is in no way esoteric, this usage of it is
17:11:55 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, do tell what?
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17:12:28 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well it is a joint effort with fizzie really
17:12:37 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> fizzie, this one works assuming no | in the input source file: http://sprunge.us/NKiR
17:12:42 <Vorpal> yeah needs a wrapper script
17:12:45 <Vorpal> otherwise Q won't work
17:13:04 <Vorpal> since the only state you have is your current offset, and you need to read the whole file somehow for Q
17:13:13 <Vorpal> of course + is a dummy-implementation due to this
17:15:11 <leBMD> I'm thinking about making an interpreter for it.
17:15:30 <leBMD> It wouldn't be too hard. It would just need a 1D vector for the stack, and a couple other things.
17:15:51 <leBMD> quick fact: I'm the one who made noobinary.
17:16:06 <leBMD> ...which is probably why it's not very creative. XD
17:19:08 <leBMD> Yes, it's in the language list. It's made to resemble binary, but be easier to read.
17:21:44 <Vorpal> "Noobinary is an esoteric language designed by user Batmanifestdestiny to resemble Binary, but be easier to learn. " <-- Binary does not seem to be another esolang hm.
17:22:01 <Vorpal> so what is it referring to? The number system?
17:23:02 <Vorpal> such as jpeg images yes
17:23:07 <leBMD> Binary, other than the numbering system, is the very basic core of programming.
17:23:21 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I tend to say "programs" "executables" "object files" or such
17:23:56 <leBMD> Well, considering it's the series of electrons going through the CPU, I'd say it's pretty basic. ;)
17:24:05 <Phantom_Hoover> leBMD, binary is just the way machine code is represented.
17:24:27 <Phantom_Hoover> The lowest level of abstraction is effectively assembly.
17:24:29 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, maybe I use binaries in the sense "unknown/arbitrary digital data on a binary computer" but that is it. Oh and the erlang data type binary, which is exactly that, arbitrary byte-stream that you can interpret however you want
17:24:46 <Vorpal> well byte stream is the most common source/destination I guess
17:25:03 <Vorpal> it is not a stream in the sense of an open FILE* in C
17:25:05 <Phantom_Hoover> I would define it as a file not intended to be readable with a flat text encoding.
17:26:05 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm so how do you classify that uudecode *.com that consisted of only printable chars?
17:26:12 <Vorpal> I think ais linked to it a few years ago
17:26:32 <Vorpal> iirc he (or maybe someone else, don't remember) wrote it for sending over usenet, to people lacking uudecode
17:26:51 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, by your definition it is not a binary?
17:26:57 <fizzie> Vorpal: Given that the file offset is the only thing that could even concievably be called "accumulator" there, and + increments it (as do all other commands, of course), it's a reasonable implementation.
17:27:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, still the issue of | in the input file
17:27:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, would need a bit more complex escaping to handle it properly
17:28:15 <leBMD> Oh gosh, my cat is meowing in her sleep.
17:28:21 <fizzie> The "include source with marker" is also a bit cheaty, but, well, understandable also.
17:28:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, I think we more or less exhausted all possible alternatives to it
17:31:51 <fizzie> If you set an upper limit to program length, you can so something inelegant like including the H, Qa9
17:31:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, any progress on jitfunge btw?
17:32:05 <fizzie> and 9 handlers separately for each offset.
17:32:21 <fizzie> Nothing to report on that front. :/
17:32:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Surely you can do JITfunge with an existing compiler with a hook stuck onto the p instruction?
17:33:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Compile it, stick the result into a buffer, call, when p is executed, recompile.
17:33:43 <fizzie> There aren't that many existing befunge compilers either.
17:34:00 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, how would you handle ~~x then?
17:35:03 <Vorpal> yes an extreme example, but x and j are both problematic even without parameters taken directly from user input
17:35:13 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, pop dy and dx and set the delta to that
17:35:36 <Vorpal> and j pops a parameter n then jumps forward n*current_delta, n might be negative
17:36:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Flick to interpretation until the delta has settled again?
17:36:24 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, befunge93 you could feasibly compile all 4 cardinal directions for, but 98? no way
17:36:44 <Vorpal> since it has arbitrary delta thanks to x
17:36:55 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and jitfunge is 98...
17:37:12 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so 93-only is not really relevant for this discussion
17:38:15 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, besides you might think implementing + as straight forward, but then you forgot that popping on empty stack pops 0. So you need to check for that
17:38:43 <fizzie> Recompiling absolutely everything on each change doesn't sound so incredibly clever. And I'm not claiming there to be any sort of theoretical reasons why JITting befunge would be somehow incredibly difficult, just that it is not entirely trivial either.
17:39:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, btw, what is that strangeness you do with mmap? IIRC recent linux introduced a guard page below the stack and above the heap. Recent = 2.6.35
17:39:16 <Vorpal> not sure if this might mess up for you
17:39:22 <Vorpal> but it made lvm spit warnings
17:39:39 <Vorpal> need to reboot to 2.6.25.3 soon, it has a fix for lvm doing that
17:39:48 <fizzie> (At least if you want to (within limits) minimize the amount of needless recompilation.)
17:40:27 <fizzie> Dunno, I mmap in the middle of nowhere and put my own guard pages around the b98 stack, I don't see why that should be a problem.
17:40:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, I didn't say JITing was increadibly difficult. What I suggested was that Phantom_Hoover's approach to the problem was infeasible.
17:41:00 <Vorpal> that said, JITing is _quite_ difficult at least. Even for non-befunge
17:43:10 <fizzie> The mmap-segfault-autocheck stack is broken anyway with the llvm codegen at the moment, since the handler needs to understand all the different operations that could try to access the stack (to fake the stack pointer as if a zero was returned without it moving), and you never quite know what the llvm code will turn into. It might need some more llvm-digging.
17:44:48 <fizzie> I optimize pop+push -> peek, which also complicates it a bit, since a "peek" operation on empty stack should actually do push 0.
17:45:49 <fizzie> Not that many programs probably care whether there's a "real" zero on the bottom of the stack, on top of the imaginary ones. But it certainly has an observable effect.
17:46:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, mycology cares (it checks with y)
17:48:03 <fizzie> Mycology is a bit special that way. I mostly meant the huge amount of B98 applications that are used all around the globe and ha wouldn't it be nice if there actually were any?
17:48:16 <fizzie> Besides fungot, anyway.
17:48:17 <fungot> fizzie: you can not implement scheme using a java irc library :d) there just would be kewl.). it has awk macros, a wonderful typo, imho)
17:48:54 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: it's very easy to get the interface of the sicp
17:54:13 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: got a microphone? i might need a bit of ratpoison advocacy slip out there. similar logic applies to physical theories: that's why you agree to these patches going into the kitchen and starts making a lot of
17:54:55 <fizzie> Cool but sometimes a bit incoherent.
17:55:33 <fizzie> This might be an old thing, but from #anotherchannel: http://bit.ly/9DBmOT -- (a maps.google.com link)
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17:59:02 <fizzie> It looks as if it is achieving warp speed.
17:59:53 <Phantom_Hoover> I assume the different colours are captured sequentially?
18:00:21 <Phantom_Hoover> And the brightness slightly later, by the looks of it.
18:00:49 <fizzie> I don't know about brightness, but it does look like they take R, G and B pictures at different moments.
18:01:26 <fizzie> One would think that "brightness" comes from the sum of it, though; it's not like they could physically speaking capture the chrominance and luminance information separately in any sensible way.
18:04:21 <fizzie> Oh, right, that. Yes, I think they could be taking one more "monochrome" picture with no filters to get better luminance resolution, or some such thing.
18:04:57 <fizzie> I had managed to miss the "outline" part completely somehow.
18:33:39 <Phantom_Hoover> "Parts of its functionality are almost copy-pasted from CCBI, and I think AnMaster trusts CCBI a bit more than he should. In some cases, this means that CCBI bugs remain in it for some time. But that does help it in getting a full pass from Mycology." ← is this true?
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18:43:02 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I believe I did more or less copy parts of 3DSP at that time since I had not yet learnt matrix math. Apart from that: no, though in cases were the standard were unclear I used it as a reference implementation.
18:43:36 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so I would call it quite an exaggeration.
18:44:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Well you would say that! It's just like the evolutionists!
18:44:28 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, however, I did credit him where credit was due, and one of the point of open source is sharing :P
18:46:08 <fizzie> And "sharing" is just another word for "stealing"! (They even begin with the same letter.)
18:47:42 <fizzie> Is this the I-consider-it-just-a-fake remote-controlled thing?
18:48:05 <fizzie> It's not real "robot wars" unless autonomous, amoral killing machines are involved.
18:50:05 <Vorpal> why can't they just make them autonomous?
18:50:18 <Vorpal> it would make it way more interesting
18:50:39 <Phantom_Hoover> It would, but that would require decent programmers as well as mechanics.
18:50:52 <fizzie> Or it could make it way more boring, given how dull e.g. robot soccer is.
18:51:04 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: can you credit me... no problem for a fnord
18:51:21 <fizzie> Ow, that's quite a thing to be known for.
18:51:30 <cheater99> i'm just looking at the fizzie nick
18:51:40 <cheater99> and i can see it does not belong in here
18:52:09 <cheater99> i think i should go to the city or sumptin
18:52:43 <fizzie> Oh noes, I am INTRUDING. Perhaps even EXTRUDING.
18:53:26 <Phantom_Hoover> If they could self-repair, then it would become awesome^2.
18:58:11 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> It would, but that would require decent programmers as well as mechanics. <-- um yes?
18:58:34 <Vorpal> I fail to see the problem with that
18:58:51 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, how is that a bad thing?
19:00:08 <fizzie> There's less to watch. It's about entertainment, after all.
19:00:30 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, expand the area of coverage, then split it up in loads of sub-matches
19:00:36 <Vorpal> they manage to do that with football after all
19:00:41 <Vorpal> and that is ever 4th year iirco
19:01:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, these things are very complex; custom stuff, etc.
19:01:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Designing strategies would be much harder than for football.
19:01:35 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, football is also very complex, I never managed to understand what "offside" is.
19:01:42 <fizzie> Also, and this is just a guess, but I doubt they'd be so free about installing the kill-and-maim hardware I assume those things have (I don't really follow any of the shows) if they weren't just remote-controlled toys.
19:02:02 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, after that I gave up on football so no clue
19:02:12 <Phantom_Hoover> The rules are static, the hardware is basically the same and there's not many possible strategies.
19:02:37 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, sounds like football?
19:03:08 <Phantom_Hoover> For a destructive arena game, you have a huge range of opponents, you have unique hardware.
19:03:15 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, but you could of course make rules more flexible, if you make the bot autonomous you have to change the rules anyway
19:03:28 <Phantom_Hoover> You have to be self-correcting, in case a wheel gets ripped off.
19:03:42 <Vorpal> of course, or use a different traction system
19:03:43 <Phantom_Hoover> You have to be able to adapt strategies for each opponent.
19:04:18 <Phantom_Hoover> You have to take into account the state of the opponent, since they might themselves have a wheel ripped off.
19:04:19 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so it is more like judo or perhaps boxing?
19:04:49 <Phantom_Hoover> There are a huge range of variables here, all of which have to be coded.
19:05:03 <fizzie> I'd still watch it, even with imperfect autonomous killer machines, but I do think they get participants easier this way.
19:05:24 <Phantom_Hoover> And you can't just stick a supercomputer into it; your computer needs to be inside the machine and needs to be shielded.
19:05:25 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, self adapting robots do exist
19:05:36 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so you don't have to code for absolutely everything
19:06:10 <Phantom_Hoover> You couldn't use plastics or anything, they'd be ripped to shreds by a nice, big saw.
19:06:38 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, also, modern computers are quite powerful. Even a mobile CPU
19:06:47 <Vorpal> and you don't exactly need 8 hours of battery life there
19:07:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, but you're also running a large lump of metal with drive systems and armour.
19:07:57 <Vorpal> true, hm... Why not allow the program to run from a remote system, but once the match started it is hands off?
19:08:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Although you could have a human "mission control" who can adapt the overall strategies on the fly.
19:08:11 <Vorpal> and yes that could be allowed
19:08:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, again, suppose a tyre or something is damaged?
19:08:38 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, guess why tanks do not use tyres!
19:08:51 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, why not use a similar traction system to that
19:09:19 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, it would however be way more cool
19:09:22 <fizzie> And again, the entertainment value: look at this RoboCup video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICgL1OWsn58 -- I guess it could be considered interesting to look at, but exciting mainstream TV it isn't.
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19:09:37 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and correcting for damaged drive isn't terribly difficult
19:09:40 <Phantom_Hoover> i.e. in a fight, you are likely to sustain damage that makes your old tactics ineffective.
19:10:09 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so that is where mission control comes into it
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19:10:32 <Phantom_Hoover> That could actually be workable, though still difficult.
19:11:47 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, anyway you basically want armour, lots of it traction a bit inwards from the sides, low GC, some way to flip over if you end up upside down (not hard) and some weapon.
19:12:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Anyway, yes, those are basically the requirements for the existing things.
19:12:20 <Vorpal> often called GC in aircraft context
19:13:00 <Vorpal> did you know that the Concorde pumped fuel during flight to change the GC along the forward/aft axis
19:13:14 <Vorpal> primarily to avoid the drag from trimming the normal way
19:13:50 <Vorpal> (the normal way would be to angle the control surfaces from the "flat" position, but that induces drag)
19:14:03 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and the software for that wouldn't be too complex
19:14:41 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well true, but sensors are light compared to the rest
19:15:27 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and power usage is also rather low compared to the movement
19:16:14 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well the gyro and such definitely can
19:16:25 <Vorpal> and camera probably could too
19:16:32 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: You can transform into food?
19:16:44 <fizzie> Well, I guess people are technically speaking food too.
19:16:53 <Vorpal> was just about to say that
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19:18:44 <Vorpal> a small IR camera in each direction wouldn't be too hard. it would take a lot of luck for the opponent to hit a recessed square of hardened glass about 0.5x0.5 cm
19:18:54 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, remember that the opponent also is AI controlled
19:18:59 <Vorpal> which actually lowers the bar
19:19:42 <fizzie> No, it just means that both opponents can't really fight very well, which makes for non-flashy battling.
19:20:02 <Vorpal> fizzie, indeed, but it is a lot more interesting of course
19:20:09 <fizzie> Interesting for us, maybe. :p
19:21:08 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you would need gyroscope or just some simpler way to detect being upside down, such as this:
19:21:22 <Vorpal> that is in the upside down position, would fall down
19:21:41 <Vorpal> and if you built it the right way, being on edge is unlikely
19:21:47 <Vorpal> so you don't even need a gyroscope
19:22:23 <Vorpal> you do however need some odometer, but that is cheap and trivial to attach to the drive, and some position sensing of your weapon (depends on what sort of weapon)
19:24:16 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm... I would suggest using some titanium alloy for the armour... Quite light, strong, and not very brittle
19:24:46 <fizzie> Making sense of the real world even badly (well, for some values of "bad" that still let you do at least *something* sensible) is pretty nontrivial, though. I guess for a fixed-environment arena you could get something done with a drive-odometer (though wouldn't the derived position information start to drift there too?), but understanding what the opponent is doing is going to be pretty tricky.
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19:25:26 <Vorpal> probably with a metal skeleton below
19:25:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, yes I was getting to that
19:26:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, I suggest a laser 3D scanner if that is feasible
19:26:23 <oerjan> <cheater99> it's an intruder <-- that's quite something to say about the channel's top present admin...
19:26:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, otherwise some IR camera
19:27:00 <Vorpal> that takes care of where the opponent is
19:27:12 <Vorpal> and perhaps also what it is doing
19:27:14 <oerjan> of course there _could_ have been a hostile takeover involved.
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19:27:27 <fizzie> oerjan: You're on the same level in the food chain, aren't you?
19:27:36 <fizzie> Oh, but you weren't here at that moment.
19:27:56 <oerjan> fizzie: i am? wasn't it you who made me op?
19:28:12 <fizzie> I don't remember doing that, but I could be wrong.
19:28:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, re armour etc., these details have been worked out.
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19:28:30 <oerjan> hm in that case maybe it's lament who is the top present admin
19:28:44 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, titanium alloys with supporting steel skeleton seems like the best bet
19:28:49 <fizzie> -ChanServ- 2 fizzie +votsriRfA [modified ? ago]
19:28:50 <fizzie> -ChanServ- 3 lament +votsriRfA [modified ? ago]
19:28:50 <fizzie> -ChanServ- 5 oerjan +votsriRfA [modified 26 weeks, 3 days, 21:05:35 ago]
19:29:07 <fizzie> We all have the same flags. (I don't know how the numbering is determined, though.)
19:29:15 <oerjan> it doesn't say who did it, though...
19:29:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, look it up. The RC models will do it better than you can make up in an afternoon.
19:29:58 <Vorpal> chanserv not in here and freenode doesn't use that module anyway
19:29:59 <oerjan> hm so does that mean i could actually lift someone else up to my level as well? i thought i was some kind of under-op
19:30:24 <fizzie> Under-dog. But yes, I think that's all the flags you can have, except the "founder" flag that andreou has.
19:30:25 <Vorpal> oerjan, yes you have +f
19:30:30 <Vorpal> oerjan, /msg chanserv help flags
19:30:55 * oerjan cackles evilly on principle
19:31:27 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, titanium might be a bit expensive though
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19:31:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm... perhaps robots could broadcast some information on their position and location.
19:31:52 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, just use LIDAR
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19:32:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, look, making the robot ascertain complex details like direction and identity from the poor sensors you have suggested is going to be really difficult.
19:33:08 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, Laser gyro should take care of it better than anything else
19:33:15 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, for position and orientation
19:33:32 <Phantom_Hoover> For its own position and orientation, not that of the others.
19:33:43 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, of course you could use 4 radio beams, one in each corner of the arena, and then just do what GPS does
19:34:00 <Vorpal> a lot simpler than the full thing a GPS does
19:34:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, but then you have to know where your opponents are.
19:34:20 <Vorpal> you don't have to wory about terrain, elevation, multi-path (well maybe that to some degree)
19:34:32 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, that is where radar or lidar or similar comes into it
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19:35:55 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, or why not a sonar?
19:36:22 <Phantom_Hoover> I am a robot. I want to know where the other robots are, what direction they are pointing and how fast they are going.
19:36:40 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, radar, lidar and sonar can all answer that
19:37:04 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, directly for position, speed and direction by integrating over time
19:37:54 <fizzie> And what about the flames shooting out of the ground, and holes that sometimes open there? (I looked at this first youtube-hit for robot wars -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA_z51dlPQU -- and the arena is a lot unfriendlier than your standard robot-soccer field.)
19:38:02 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well, then you could try to do image processing to figure out the shape. You could load 3D models of the opponents in advance
19:38:18 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, or why not require them to have a blue spot on the front
19:38:33 <Vorpal> well then you need visual camera, no big issue
19:38:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, I fail to see the point of those flames
19:39:13 <fizzie> Hah! Image processing objects out of grainy, noisy, messy, blurry visual images is *really* something that your average remote-controlled robot enthusiast is not going to be able to write.
19:39:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, well okay, so why not require it to be painted in radar absorbing paint at the front?
19:40:01 <Vorpal> well not the whole front of course
19:40:10 <fizzie> Because that's a lot more boring?
19:41:10 <fizzie> And again, personally I'd watch a lot less visually flashy autonomous-robot murder-o-death-o-matchery, but not everyone would.
19:41:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Though some degree of environmental control could be interesting.
19:43:36 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, the sound quality is horrible
19:43:43 <Vorpal> I have no idea what they said really
19:43:54 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and increadibly boring
19:44:08 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, ... you told me to watch it above
19:44:11 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, please watch that video.
19:44:46 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, extremely boring
19:45:06 <Vorpal> yes that is the interesting part
19:45:30 <fizzie> Yeah, they should be reviewing the code for both bots before the match! That's sure to hook in the viewers.
19:45:35 <Vorpal> the people building the hardware would need to team up with people working on software, unless they are skilled at both
19:46:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, reviewing hm? Why?
19:46:09 <fizzie> Because it's the interesting part, of course.
19:46:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, they could publish it as bonus material on their site, and then discuss the interesting parts on the show
19:47:11 <Vorpal> oh and the sound level needs to go down. any sport where audience is louder than in Tennis is basically not interesting
19:47:23 <Vorpal> not sure why I hit shift there
19:47:28 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Nerdiest non-existent thing ever.
19:47:31 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so we have a win-win situation!
19:47:58 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and of course they could review the hardware as well as the software
19:48:04 <Vorpal> both parts are interesting
19:48:05 <fizzie> No, but I have an amb-eval here somewhere.
19:48:40 <fizzie> But by all means, do make it happen. I'll even watch it, if it's watchable over the interwebs.
19:48:53 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, who said US? I aimed for world wide coverage. Anyone who is interested, from any country can join. After all, it isn't like the olympics is US only is it?
19:49:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, amb-eval sounds familiar... hm?
19:49:38 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's what SICP calls that nondeterministic backtracking thing.
19:49:39 <Vorpal> scheme macro, backtracking?
19:49:59 <fizzie> I guess it could be used in related non-SICP Scheme contexts too.
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19:50:14 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I'm sure we are not alone
19:50:25 <Vorpal> besides you don't need to focus on the software in the TV show
19:50:26 <fizzie> Actually it seems to have been "ambeval", to be more accurate.
19:51:50 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Where's that AMBITION of yours now, huh!?
19:51:53 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you could of course make each bot send out it's position if you want, that might make things a bit simpler. Especially since there seems to be more than two robots at a time
19:52:02 <Vorpal> I was considering duels
19:52:22 <Vorpal> where keeping track of one opponent with sensors wouldn't be TOO hard
19:52:27 <fizzie> (Oh, it's both: the evaluation procedure is "ambeval", but the prompts it prints out say "Amb-Eval".)
19:52:43 <Phantom_Hoover> OTOH with those levels of destruction, it's basically all or nothing.
19:53:20 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm... that makes for fewer shows
19:53:47 <Phantom_Hoover> But we're approaching this with selective practicality
19:54:15 <Vorpal> multiple opponents changes the whole thing
19:54:23 <Vorpal> in fact a robot might be better than a human at that
19:54:38 <Vorpal> A CPU has no issues with keeping tracks of many things at once
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20:05:49 <Vorpal> fizzie, that robocup thing was a lot more interesting than the robowars thingy
20:06:04 <Vorpal> well, haven't watched the complete movie
20:06:10 <Vorpal> I get like 2 kB/s on it
20:06:18 <Vorpal> so still not completely downloaded
20:17:21 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yes but I didn't understand what you meant by that
20:23:34 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, robocup?
20:23:44 <Vorpal> or do you mean robowars?
20:23:54 <Vorpal> how can anyone be nostalgic about that... crap
20:24:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, which series?
20:24:55 <Vorpal> they seem more insane towards the later ones
20:26:53 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, anyway I now pinned down your age that to "was around 5 at some point between 1994 and 2004"
20:27:11 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so how old are you, that way I can tell which series it was
20:28:39 <fizzie> They have semi-recently (note more than a couple of years ago) started showing one of those shows on some Finnish TV channel; but it might not be Robot Wars exactly, since there are some others, like BattleBots.
20:29:12 <Vorpal> so 2004 is unlikely, 10 years as minimum means 1990-2000 (excluding possible off by one errors due to later/earlier during the year than the current day and month)
20:29:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Although we'll need to prevent midgets being used instead of computers.
20:29:41 <Vorpal> (after all I'm 20, but later this year I will be 21)
20:30:27 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, why don't they make robots that can climb out of that pit btw?
20:30:52 <Phantom_Hoover> I always wondered why noöne had integrated a radio jammer.
20:31:00 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, probably against the rules
20:32:33 <fizzie> According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robot_Wars_%28TV_series%29#Arena_and_hazards falling into the Pit of Oblivion is instant disqualification.
20:32:38 <fizzie> So no use climbing up there.
20:32:49 <fizzie> (Besides, it sounds like a lot more added complexity for pretty little benefit.)
20:33:19 <Vorpal> fizzie, what about folding out arms so that you hang above, and never fell into it
20:33:30 <Vorpal> then you could climb back
20:34:20 <fizzie> Possibly the pit wasn't such a huge hazard. I'unno.
20:34:48 <Vorpal> for added armour I mean
20:35:22 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, you have a motor in there as well as the computer.
20:36:05 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well didn't we agree on putting the computer off the arena? But running an AI, with no human interaction once the battle started
20:36:19 <Vorpal> you still probably want a low power CPU in it
20:36:25 <Vorpal> for some local processing
20:36:35 <Vorpal> a high end ARM would be perfect
20:36:44 <Vorpal> such as used in high end phones
20:37:17 <Phantom_Hoover> My god, the first series was presented by Jeremy Clarkson.
20:37:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, depends on what armour
20:37:53 <Vorpal> some would act as a heatsink
20:38:34 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I suggest a low-heat low-power CPU anyway if you do it locally, like one or more ARM
20:38:52 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, stuff like nintento DS runs on it after all.
20:38:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah, well, if we're just running an ARM it's not too much of an issue.
20:38:55 <Vorpal> and that has no fan afaik
20:39:19 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I think a pair of high end ARMs have more than enough processing power
20:40:29 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, otherwise, since this doesn't last long, just use liquid nitrogen cooling
20:40:37 <Vorpal> it is a one off per battle anyway
20:40:52 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, indeed, too expensive hardware at stake here
20:42:41 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, further I suggest using a composite armor
20:42:59 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, or hacking I guess
20:43:43 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, titanium alloys then?
20:43:56 <Vorpal> with steel skeleton for stiffness
20:44:26 <Vorpal> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanium#Physical_properties
20:44:48 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, sure we are, titanium is light too, so you can have more of it if there are weight limits
20:44:59 <Phantom_Hoover> The computer can be encased nicely, but everything else isn't that important.
20:45:17 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, actually *some* of those sensors might be a bit expensive
20:45:33 <Vorpal> laser gyro and LIDAR primarily I think
20:45:55 <Vorpal> you still have lots of simple switch sensors for detecting bumping into things and so on of course
20:48:19 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, anyway composite isn't that expensive. Well depends on what composite
20:51:47 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, so robot has sensors which feed to a lightweight processor which consults a heavyweight computer off the arena and does things accordingly?
20:52:20 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well yes the heavywight processor (if needed, it might not be) would send commands to the robot
20:53:46 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, would be free to make it at the level of "move towards that thing" or "drive on motor a", that is, you are free to put any amount of processing in the bot and any amount off it. I suggest that the CPU in the bot should not be limited in power (since other considerations will already do that) but the one off the arena should be.
20:54:00 <Vorpal> it wouldn't be so fun it someone bought a super cluster there
20:54:37 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, might run out of space
20:54:50 <Phantom_Hoover> You can have a supercluster, but if you still need to calculate the strategies sensibly.
20:55:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I suggest simply a standard high end machine running linux off the arena. Say a dual-cpu quad-core Xeon with 8 GB RAM and a few GPGPUs attached. For each combatant
20:56:16 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, that is quite interesting
20:57:29 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, any good ideas?
20:57:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Well... Obviously a schematic of the other robot will be useful.
20:58:10 <Phantom_Hoover> You don't want to go charging onto a flipper, for instance.
20:58:40 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I suggest a rouge 3D model of the opponent(s) of it marking the weapon such as flippers
20:58:44 <Vorpal> nothing more detailed probably
20:58:49 <Vorpal> well maybe drive system
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20:59:56 <Vorpal> if we allow some form of 3D system scanners (LIDAR, Radar, sonar or such), and I suggest we do, that could be matched against the 3D model loaded in advance
21:00:26 <Vorpal> s/system scanners/scanner systems/
21:00:33 <Vorpal> (no idea how I managed that typo!)
21:01:34 <Phantom_Hoover> And, as I mentioned before, being able to perform primitive diagnostics on opponents would be advantageous.
21:02:00 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you mean position and such?
21:02:25 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well sure, that would be some interesting sensors
21:02:33 <Vorpal> well I guess you could match against it being dented
21:03:11 <Phantom_Hoover> But if your opponent's drive system is crippled, say, you have much more space to manoeuvre yourself.
21:03:40 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well that would be reasonably easy to detect, if it doesn't move
21:04:00 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, heuristics
21:04:17 <Vorpal> this would be good because that way you could try to pretend to be damaged
21:04:30 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, which would be quite a nice tactic
21:04:37 <Phantom_Hoover> And thus the game becomes much more tactically complex.
21:04:43 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, of course
21:05:24 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, anyway I wonder if it might be possible to build a drive system that can move in any direction
21:05:30 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, or nearly so
21:06:06 <Vorpal> I can't see how it could be done basically
21:06:33 <Vorpal> the best I can think of is ability to drive the left and right side wheels or tracks independently
21:06:42 <Vorpal> which means you can turn on the spot
21:06:44 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mecanum_wheel is omnidirectional
21:08:24 <fizzie> There's also that three-wheel design built out of what looks like the bottom bit of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omni_wheel with the wheels put like /_\ ; you can drive with two of them and the "sideways" wheels will make the third one not drag horribly.
21:10:13 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, yeah, but exposed wheels can be shredded easily.
21:10:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, still I think tracks and being able to turn on the spot is better
21:10:30 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you can put them under your body, no need to put them at the edges
21:11:02 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and why not retract them and put a cover over when getting flipped? then when you flip back reveal them again
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21:12:57 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, ruber covered metal tracks are probably better though. Rubber for added traction that is
21:13:07 <Vorpal> and metal core for making it harder to destroy
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21:15:56 <fizzie> I hate to say this, but given the amount of work that would go into building a capable autonobot, you *might* have some trouble in finding people to participate in a... how should I put it, slightly hazardous thing like that? (No matter how much you limit the destructiviness, the aim -- unless you stray pretty far -- still is to break the opponent.)
21:17:37 <fizzie> How does it go with DARPA's "Grand Challenge" series of autonomous driving things; are they still doing that stuff? I haven't heard any news lately; though I guess I should just ask Google.
21:19:48 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, in that case we want different rules
21:20:08 <Vorpal> and probably having the crowd quite a long way away
21:20:16 <Vorpal> I mean, missiles and such
21:21:33 <fizzie> There's that at-times-a-bit-hilarious paper about how having robots shooting guns is going to be more ethically good, because they can more easily in "the heat of the battle" judge who are civilians and who they shouldn't be shooting.
21:22:07 <fizzie> It's going to really suck for that 10 % that happen to be false negatives of the civilian-classifier algo, though.
21:22:41 <Vorpal> also giving robots weapons like that? Um, you must be insane
21:23:05 <Vorpal> Just see future predictions by Hollywood
21:24:01 <fizzie> Incidentally, there's quite a bit of (overview-only presentation in the upcoming video link) hardware that might be useful for an autonobot in the 2007 DARPA-winning autonocar, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lULl63ERek0
21:28:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, nice but expensive
21:29:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, btw in the mine in Kiruna they use autonomous trucks and such
21:29:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, monitored by humans and the occasional change and such
21:29:28 <Vorpal> but day-to-day operation is autonomous
21:30:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, iirc they use lasers, oh and some kind of reflective things mounted on the walls at the proper height
21:30:12 <Vorpal> so it can make sure it is not crashing into a wall
21:31:02 <Vorpal> fizzie, and there is no GPS to help them down there
21:31:53 <fizzie> Yes, but on the other hand it's a lot more controlled environment than a random city.
21:32:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, they have been using them since way before those cars though
21:36:23 <fizzie> Meh, all this robotics talk always makes me feel like I should build something; then I remember how very non-hardwarey person I am. I think I'll stick with the bits; they're a lot more malleable.
21:38:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, try lego, and remember to put support beams in orthogonally
21:40:21 <Vorpal> there is really just one "secret" of lego technic: two normal "beams" with two plates between is the proper distance to mount orthogonal supports on the side
21:40:32 <Vorpal> I could draw this in ldraw if you are interested I guess
21:41:13 <Vorpal> http://cache.lego.com/2057/images/create/designschool/courses/course_1/lesson1c/und272x362brickfit.gif
21:41:28 <Vorpal> hm cache... hope that url works for you
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21:43:25 <fizzie> (It also reminds me of Pac-Man.)
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21:45:58 <Vorpal> I seen the difference machine
21:46:06 <Vorpal> but that is not really a turing machine at all
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23:22:07 <Sgeo> ais523 is in the Crawl learndb
23:29:03 <Sgeo> http://crawl.akrasiac.org/learndb.html#ais523
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23:29:35 <Vorpal> Sgeo, I wasn't aware of nethack's interface being really inconsistent
23:29:51 <Vorpal> well, one or two small things sure but, nothing major
23:30:06 <Vorpal> Sgeo, is crawl's interface actually inconsistent?
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23:30:36 <Sgeo> It... feels nicer than NetHack's, in that it automates tedious stuff
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23:31:43 <Vorpal> Sgeo, oh and: is it harder or easier than nethack?
23:31:59 <Sgeo> Exploring, knowing where you stashed your stuff, note taking, resting until healed
23:32:09 <Sgeo> Knowing what's safe to eat
23:32:42 <Sgeo> Interlevel travel, including avoiding areas that the user marked for exclusion
23:33:16 <Vorpal> Sgeo, knowing where you stashed stuff is easy. First level of sokoban, icebox if possible. Until right before ascending, when I move it to level 1 if feasible.
23:33:30 <Vorpal> well the stuff I want to take with me but don't plan to carry down
23:33:48 <Vorpal> like artifacts that I have no use for except for the score
23:34:59 <Sgeo> price-ID is impossible
23:35:24 <Sgeo> Well, I prefer avoiding price-ID in NH
23:35:30 <Sgeo> Since it's tedious
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01:15:48 <Sgeo> <Henzell> Sgeo the Chiller (L5 MfIE) became a worshipper of Sif Muna on turn 6485. (D:3)
01:18:39 <nooga> http://osblog.pl/ezoteryczne-jezyki-programowania/
01:18:53 <nooga> wow, some polish blogger links our wiki
01:19:43 <nooga> i found this article on wykop - polish digg's counterpart
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02:06:45 <Sgeo> worshipper of Sif Muna
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12:46:51 <Sgeo> ais523, what's wrong with Crawl's interface, if I may ask?
12:47:21 <ais523> inconsistent behaviour on the same keys is a large one
12:47:52 <ais523> what "zrH" does rather depends on what spell is in slot R, and how much MP you have
12:48:26 <ais523> as to whether the "rH" is interpreted as "cast spell r left", as "cast spell r, wait I don't have the MP, move left instead", or as "read scroll H" because you don't know any spells
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12:48:48 <ais523> the last case is not major as you probably aren't trying to cast anyway in that situation, but the first two are pretty nasty and trip me up all the time
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12:49:06 <ais523> also, low HP is not really as visible as it should be, mostly because the HP bars look much the same no matter what your health is
12:51:35 <Sgeo> How would zrH be made consistent? Taking a dummy direction?
12:51:46 <Sgeo> erm, well, not just direction I guess
12:52:55 <ais523> the correct solution would be a --More-- on a failure to cast a spell, that absorbs the direction key
12:54:25 <Sgeo> Or other key such as f
12:54:31 <Sgeo> (which I tend to use a lot)
12:57:21 <fizzie> Topicality! A recent NetHack tweet by fungot: About NetHack: diamond dog is everybody's best friend. the mirror replied: "if you can't read between it. he is useful."
12:57:52 <fizzie> Also a bit hilarious: "About Penny Arcade: am i right, or am i right, or am i right, or am i right, or am i right, or am i right, or am i right, or am i right?"
12:58:37 <fizzie> How come it has had a sequence of awesome ones. "a reanimated corpse, death is but a loin-cloth. an elf would smell its rancid stench at ten..."
12:59:03 <ais523> that penny arcade one is brilliant
12:59:09 <ais523> a case of there being only two options in the chain?
12:59:53 <fizzie> Most likely. I should maybe make some sort of dumper script to the language model format so that I could diagnose things like that.
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13:06:53 <fizzie> Oh right, it was that silly inverted tree I had.
13:08:23 <fizzie> The "bar" child of the "foo" node under root contains data related to context "... bar foo _", where _ is the word it's trying to fill. Wrote it that way because I can then just descend the tree as long as there is both context remaining and child nodes to go to, then use the final node for choosing the word.
13:14:51 <fizzie> Heh, that was an interesting error from a "#! /usr/bin/env perl"-headered script:
13:14:52 <fizzie> bash: ./dump-model.pl: /usr/bin/env: bad interpreter: Text file busy
13:16:08 <ais523> I don't even know what errno code "Text file busy" corresponds to
13:16:12 <ais523> what system are you on? VMS?
13:16:55 * oerjan has a vague memory of seeing that message somewhere
13:17:26 <ais523> it's not as unnerving as "printer on fire"
13:22:02 <fizzie> This is a Linux system, but I'm thinking it's related to the NFS disk system.
13:22:21 <fizzie> I had within the same fraction of second saved the script, which might or might not be relevant.
13:22:51 <fizzie> #define ETXTBSY 26 /* Text file busy */
13:23:17 <fizzie> Also a representative line of Perl from the script: dumptree(read_node($_->[1]), [$_->[0], @$context]) foreach sort { $a->[1] cmp $b->[1] } map { [token2text($_), $tree->{'childs'}->{$_}] } keys %{$tree->{'childs'}};
13:23:40 <ais523> is it worrying that I can actually read that?
13:24:09 <ais523> besides, the plural of "child" is "children"
13:24:33 <fizzie> The elements of $tree are 'nexts' and 'childs'.
13:28:06 <fizzie> Okay, so. "am i right" is followed by a question mark with probability 0.5, and a comma with probability 0.5 also; "i right," is always followed by "or"; "right, or" is always followed by "am"; ", or am" is always followed by "i"; "or am i" is always followed by "right". So there's a 50 % chance of a loop there.
13:28:39 <ais523> and we have luck that it went like that
13:29:37 <oerjan> next you might investigate why the sword alone can't stop
13:32:02 <fizzie> For the "i right?" the possible continuations are end-of-sentence (with a probability depending on already generated length), or alternatively: "a" (10.53 %), "correct" (15.79 %), or one out of {did, fuck, he's, i, i'm, it's, maybe, robots, so, that, that's, they, why, you} each with a probability of 5.26 %.
13:33:29 <fizzie> Let's see about this sword, then.
13:34:19 <ais523> hmm, where is fungot, btw?
13:36:13 <fizzie> "sword alone" always gets "can't"; "alone can't" always gets "stop"; "can't stop" doesn't exist, so it uses "stop" as the only context; there's a lot of alternatives there, but prominent among them is the ! with about 10 %, and the comma with about 12 %.
13:37:47 <fizzie> "stop!" has a 23 % chance of being followed by "that" (other about equally possible alternatives are "intruders", "these", "this"); "stop! that" always gets the sword.
13:38:43 <fizzie> There's a significantly smaller chance of a loop there; we must either have been very lucky, or the randomness/use-of-it could be bad.
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13:40:22 <fizzie> If by that you mean we got the "that sword alone can't stop!" loop multiple times, yes.
13:40:37 <oerjan> how can "can't stop" not exist, when it's generated...
13:40:52 <ais523> probably it always ends a sentence
13:41:05 <fizzie> It just means there hasn't been enough "can't stop X" sort of snippets for it to be able to give meaningful probabilities for X.
13:41:10 <fizzie> So it uses a shorter context there.
13:41:11 <Deewiant> fizzie: Given that, I'd suggest there's not enough randomness
13:42:03 <fizzie> I think I trained the chrono trigger model with our variable-length n-gram toolkit; my handcrafted one would use fixed context lengths everywhere.
13:42:29 <fungot> Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script)
13:42:42 <fizzie> fungot: Do you know why the sword just couldn't stop the other day?
13:42:42 <fungot> fizzie: i shall help also. i shall depart for good. it's what that guy in medina, a village near the mystic mountain" 65,000,000 b. c.? yes, i'd have done something very brave! he's probably up north, to guardia!!! let's toast our land! now we'll have some peace! magus is a tad on the spooky side. our only hope.
13:43:11 <fizzie> fungot: Oh no, please don't depart for good.
13:43:11 <fungot> fizzie: that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone
13:43:32 <fizzie> (Or synchronisticy, perhaps.)
13:43:45 <ais523> it's the RNG screwing with you
13:43:48 <ais523> they have a tendency to do that
13:46:35 <oerjan> that definitely doesn't look like a like thing to happen with 23% probabilities :D
13:47:03 <ais523> Sgeo: are you referring to the rigged RNG in ##crawl which always returns "xom" if it's ever given as an option?
13:47:41 <Vorpal> hm strange really, when comparing results from bootchart on jaunty and lucid (same set of daemons except for some changes to the core set, such as readahead -> ureadahead, and that is not my choice), lucid takes about twice as long to boot
13:47:46 <Sgeo> Didn't realize there was such a bot. I just remember seeing some mention that Xom was sometimes referred to as RNG
13:47:52 <Vorpal> 1:11 instead of 33 seconds
13:48:01 <fizzie> oerjan: Less than 23 %: it also should be only 10 % for "!" to follow "stop". So just .23*.1 for it to keep looping per round.
13:48:18 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> !rng xom notxom
13:48:18 <Sgeo> <Henzell> The RNG chooses: notxom.
13:49:01 <EgoBot> 1.1592836324538744e-23
13:49:18 <oerjan> i _say_ we have statistical significance, there
13:49:55 <ais523> Sgeo: not sure, I don't hang out in ##crawl
13:50:04 <ais523> it may have been fixed (or unfixed, depending on your point of view) by now
13:50:07 <fizzie> Originally I had in the file just the pure n-gram counts, and their sum: if there's "foo bar" twice and "foo bar" thrice, it would have in the "foo" node totalnext=5, bar=2, baz=3.
13:50:14 <Sgeo> ais523, you're in the LearnDB
13:50:35 <ais523> that is an actual quote by me, yes
13:50:39 <ais523> although much of the context is missing
13:51:04 <ais523> note I said "inconsistent" at the start; the entire quote is about Crawl's interface being much worse at consistency than even NetHack's
13:51:19 <fizzie> For the variable-length ngram models, I only get floating-point probabilities from the tool, so I put totalnext = about 134217726 in all nodes, and divide that to the alternatives using the probabilities given.
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13:52:54 <Sgeo> Someone asked about preventing SQL Injection. Someone said filtering input, someone else said parameterized queries, I piped in and suggested the latter, and that the former's tricky and unreliable
13:53:08 <fizzie> It might be that the large numbers there are confusing it. I'm supposed to be generating a [0, 2^28-1] random number there, and then do that modulo totalnext, but maybe I don't.
13:53:11 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
13:53:40 <ais523> Sgeo: always use some form of query parameterization; either parameterized queries directly, or prepared statements
13:54:02 <ais523> not only is this easier to get right than filtering, it also doesn't put really arbitrary restrictions on your input
13:54:41 <fizzie> Actually, now that I look at the befunge, I seem to be generating a number in the [0, 2^24-1] range.
13:55:15 <fizzie> So for a case where there's a probability of ~23 % on the first alternative, it would pick it in reality about (.23/.25) of the time.
13:55:37 <oerjan> ..now the big question, would fixing that bug be improving fungot or destroying it...
13:55:38 <fungot> oerjan: your majesty! and queen. he and a friend left on a journey 10. all functions are down... got the terra arm and the crisis arm! found a dreamstone! i'd forgotten how beautiful they are the evildoers? magus's lair! you brave! he's probably up north, to guardia!!! let's toast our land! now we'll have some peace! magus is a tad on the spooky side. our only hope.
13:56:55 <fizzie> Do you want to see me fix it with a live "^code" patch? It's anyone's guess if I manage to calculate the offset of the place to 'p' in right. :p
13:57:38 <fizzie> Oh, it won't modify anything on-disk anyway.
13:59:13 <ais523> the HEAD: implies you have a VCS as backup
13:59:36 <fizzie> It's line 142, column 34, according to my editor; converted zero-based, that's line 141, column 33; and there's a load offset of (0,100) for the bot code, so I want... 'f{33}{241}p, I think. With {n} converted to an acceptable number.
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14:01:40 <fizzie> 'f3b*ff1+*1+p perhaps.
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14:02:24 <ais523> are you going to try it and accidentally disable the do-not-become-Skynet code?
14:02:29 <fizzie> I'm just trying to remember if there was something I had to remember with ^code.
14:03:17 <fizzie> fungot: Uh... how are you feeling? Can the sword now stop?
14:03:17 <fungot> fizzie: i see. you know, i really care... a time portal? what in the...! ozzie's stumped! is that for us! the chef's in a snit, trying to get food to the front lines. heard a spell to energize the sword takes immense evil! indeed! this thing. what you have? transform! this trading house. it's the kind! i've decided to stay with these humans! you're a traitor! you're not our king! but, we are far outnumbered!
14:03:33 <ais523> "the sword takes" in that line
14:03:58 <fizzie> It's "the sword", though, not "that sword". But it's still promising.
14:04:03 <fungot> ais523: your majesty! and queen. he and a friend left on a journey 10. all functions are down... got the terra arm and the crisis arm! found a dreamstone! i'd forgotten how beautiful they are the evildoers? magus's lair! you brave! he's probably up north, to guardia!!! let's toast our land! now we'll have some peace! magus is a tad on the spooky side. our only hope.
14:04:36 <fizzie> fungot: Uh... you're repeating yourself there. You already spoke about Magus being our only hope just a moment ago.
14:04:37 <fungot> fizzie: in the middle ages, sir slush!...
14:05:52 <fizzie> That sounds like some obscure sort of insult.
14:06:05 <ais523> fungot: I'm still interested in that sword...
14:06:06 <fungot> ais523: you are strong of will...! that's the pendant the gurus and miss them! use the y button displays the time to drop by!? all the young must migrate to other planets...to repeat the cycle...
14:06:28 <ais523> that's mostly nonsensical, but the bit at the end is scary
14:06:56 <fizzie> It's funny how NPC characters in games speak of "the Y button" and so; there's a trope for it and all.
14:07:43 <oerjan> isn't it not entirely unlikely that the same bug that causes "that sword" to loop also causes it to be probable to start in the first place?
14:07:45 <ais523> HSUP B TCELES, as GameSpite's Talking Time puts it
14:07:51 <ais523> oerjan: quite possibly
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14:35:52 <nooga> esoteric roguelike
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14:36:59 <nooga> like walking through random befunge programs or something :D
14:38:50 <ais523> nooga: I have the start of an esolang text adventure lying around somewhere
14:38:58 <ais523> it had an INTERCAL room, and a BF room
14:39:29 <ais523> also, a staircase based on an esolang whose name I have difficulty remembering
14:39:50 <ais523> but it's based on commands that look like "1. Go to step 3." and "2. Swap step 4 with step 6."
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14:45:52 <ais523> can anyone help me identify the esolang?
14:46:23 <ais523> these things just come to you after a while...
14:57:32 <Vorpal> hm was it ehird that predicted that ipv6 won't ever be deployed, and instead heavy NATing will be used?
14:58:08 <Vorpal> well, not in all areas: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPv6#Deployment
14:58:14 <Vorpal> see about phones and such
14:59:18 <Vorpal> also somewhat widespread deployment in china
14:59:25 <Sgeo> Vorpal, I thought that was you who predicted that, and mentioned ais523
14:59:42 <ais523> Sgeo: are you now mentioning someone else mentioning me?
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15:16:00 <nooga> or maybe roguelike with elements of sokoban
15:17:15 <Sgeo> "Best/worst Crawl (or other RL) death?"
15:17:31 <Sgeo> Any RL death that I have is the worst
15:18:52 <ais523> Sgeo: I ate the same trice corpse twice, once
15:18:57 <ais523> thus neatly defeating my AoLS
15:19:30 * Sgeo was attempting to note the ambiguity of "RL"
15:19:33 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/roguelikes/comments/d57s7/bestworst_crawl_or_other_rl_death/
15:21:20 <madbrain2> haven't played any rogue likes... they seem like asshole games
15:21:37 <nooga> i have biiiig screen and sometimes i don't notice information about hunger
15:22:03 <nooga> and then i walk and walk throu a corridor *KABOOM* death by starvation, bye bye
15:22:16 <nooga> what a stupid idea
15:23:52 <ais523> madbrain2: they take some getting used to
15:23:58 <Phantom_Hoover> madbrain2, yeah, but it's a classhole game, to copy xkcd.
15:26:25 <ais523> mostly there are things you can do to avoid it
15:26:36 <ais523> or decide if it's a risk you're willing to take
15:26:52 <ais523> to put it another way, games where you can constantly reload to get the desired outcome, may as well not have randomness at all
15:27:16 <Sgeo> "Did you notice how many people complain these days? I hate that.
15:27:21 <Sgeo> https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:monster:donald
15:27:30 <nooga> i forgot about the stag party
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15:29:11 <nooga> the whole thing is taking place in my flat
15:29:42 <nooga> so i can use my computer while friends watch the striptease
15:29:45 <Phantom_Hoover> There was a stag party going on in the same flat as you and you *forgot* about it.
15:30:53 <ais523> nooga: so why wouldn't you watch the striptease too?
15:33:34 <madbrain2> eh, I grew with the SNES miyamoto "not asshole" design... I think it's a winner ;)
15:34:59 <Sgeo> I guess I should look up "stag party"
15:35:36 <ais523> Sgeo: a party that a man and his male friends have immediately before he gets married
15:35:43 <ais523> they're rather infamous for a lot of things
15:35:50 <ais523> the female equivalent is a "hen party"
15:36:23 <ais523> presumably the male version was originally "cock party" but they changed it because it was too literal
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16:15:26 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: these unique items make us invincible!
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17:43:59 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Did you see the (unimaginative) Grasp I scetched out purely because of there being an insufficient amount of graph-related langs? (I advertised it here a couple of times, but can't recall if you were here then.)
17:44:35 <Phantom_Hoover> What languages are good for dicking about with graphs?
17:45:20 <fizzie> I guess it depends on whether you want to graphically dick around, or graph-theoretically dick around, or something else.
17:46:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Prolog seems vaguely appropriate, but I'm not sure why.
17:48:36 * pikhq hates waking up when class would start
17:48:55 <fizzie> Anything that can use C-interfaced libraries is often a safe bet; there are graph-related libs, like NAUTY, the (self-styled) world's fastest isomorphism testing program.
17:52:13 <fizzie> It also has an interesting licence; "application with nontrivial military significance" is not exactly a common exception. (Also one has to wonder how much the military does graph isomorphisms...)
17:53:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, you don't know? You're better off that way, anyway.
18:13:37 <Phantom_Hoover> The military have their reasons for graph isomorphisms...
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18:42:00 <pikhq> God dammit Scandinavia, making me bitter.
18:42:09 <pikhq> Norway has free post-secondary education.
18:42:16 <pikhq> WHY DONT WE HAVE FREE POST-SECONDARY EDUCATION.
18:42:38 <Phantom_Hoover> So does Scotland, at least for the Scottish, at least for the moment.
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18:43:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Or they're paid for you, do you get how vague my grasp of this is?
18:44:23 <ais523> Scotland has no tuition fees
18:45:37 <pikhq> Dear USA: your college system sucks ass unless you drive a solid gold Humvee.
18:46:07 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, thanks for knowing more about Scotland than I do.
18:46:54 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: are you Scottish?
18:47:11 <ais523> (I'm not, but I hang around the political student types here who debate tuition fees)
18:47:28 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Well, ais523 is at least in the UK (England, I think, but I could be wrong). Sooo, it's not exactly unreasonable for him to have a clue about Scotland.
18:48:06 <ais523> pikhq: yes, England specifically
18:48:10 <ais523> not Manchester, though
18:48:16 <ais523> the /other/ second city
18:48:53 <fizzie> Why is it always about ham?
18:49:09 <pikhq> fizzie: Ham is delicious.
18:50:05 <fizzie> There's been a lot of talk about Finland starting to charge tuition fees for university students, at least for non-Finnish exchange students. As far as I know they haven't yet gotten around to.
18:50:40 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't know what the tuition situation in Scotland is.
18:52:10 <fizzie> "In selected English-language Master's degree programmes it will be possible for the Finnish higher education institutions to collect tuition fees starting autumn 2010, 2011 or 2012." Okay, so I guess it's not completely free in absolutely all cases.
18:52:26 <fizzie> (Though it's still only for "non-EU/EEA nationals".)
18:53:00 <ais523> the non-EU seems to be a common thread amongst tuition fee differences in the EU
18:53:05 <ais523> so I expect there's some sort of enforcement
18:53:44 <pikhq> I suspect that out-of-EU tuition still seems cheap to Americans.
18:54:00 <ais523> pikhq: mostly to Chinese, actually
18:54:16 <ais523> at least half of the non-EU intake here, at least, seems to be Chinese students for some reason
18:54:19 <pikhq> ais523: What's the figures look like?
18:54:33 <ais523> this is anecdotal, I don't know the exact numbers
18:54:52 <pikhq> Yeah, that's not too surprising. I'd say about half of the non-US students are from China or India here.
18:54:55 <ais523> but it's the same across multiple departments
18:55:20 <fizzie> Also based on anecdotal experience, but there's a large component of Chinese visitors at our place too.
19:01:44 <Sgeo> "Because nobody wants to live in a world without cookies"
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19:04:20 <pikhq> Huh. The US Constitution is the shortest constitution of any nation.
19:04:52 <pikhq> Sorry, shortest constitution of any government at all.
19:05:36 <pikhq> And probably the most misunderstood.
19:05:53 <ais523> the UK Constitution is zero-length!
19:06:06 <ais523> many Americans are shocked to hear that it isn't actually formalised anywhere
19:06:27 <ais523> it's made out of something like four different laws, plus a few conventions that aren't legally binding but that have been followed forever
19:07:11 <pikhq> ais523: I'd even hesitate to call it a constitution at all.
19:07:29 <ais523> it's normally called that by people who study it
19:07:51 <pikhq> Basically what you have is "the monarchs' word is law", and a bunch of laws & traditions restricting the monarchs' word.
19:07:55 <ais523> the standard agreement that the Lords don't vote against points in the ruling party's manifesto is completely muddled atm, though
19:08:11 <ais523> on the basis that we have a coalition ruling, and it didn't have a manifesto before the election
19:08:43 <pikhq> The UK legal system is completely bonkers.
19:08:49 <pikhq> It *works*, but oooouch.
19:09:27 <ais523> that's quite a compliment, I think
19:15:14 <pikhq> Also, the House of Lords befuddles me.
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19:16:38 <ais523> pikhq: the old system, which worked fine for ages, was to stuff it full of the children of other Lords, on the basis that they were less likely to be partisan, rich enough not to be bribed easily, and sane enough to keep the Commons in check
19:16:44 <ais523> some people disapproved of this
19:17:13 <ais523> the Labour government introduced a new system a few years ago, and were caught taking bribes to make people Lords as a result
19:17:19 <ais523> but that system's still in place, with people being appointed
19:17:39 <ais523> I'm not sure if it'll lead to disaster yet; it hasn't done so yet but it's still rather new
19:19:17 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:House_of_Lords.jpg That's... Pretty lavish.
19:20:07 <ais523> it's a pretty old building
19:20:21 <ais523> that sort of thing usd to be standard in government buildings
19:21:25 <pikhq> For comparison, US senate. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:110th_US_Senate_class_photo.jpg Rather lavish, but seriously. *Everything is covered in gold at the House of Lords*.
19:22:04 <coppro> the Senate looks temporary
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19:22:31 <pikhq> It's been done like that since the Capitol was built.
19:23:55 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Obama_Health_Care_Speech_to_Joint_Session_of_Congress.jpg This is a bit more what you'd expect, right?
19:24:19 <coppro> yes, I've seen the house of reps before
19:24:27 <coppro> and wow, that's packed
19:24:45 <coppro> which chamber's procedural rules are used in a joint session?
19:27:54 <ais523> don't they both use Robert's rules anyway?
19:28:03 <pikhq> It appears that it depends on who is presiding. If it's the Speaker of the House (as in most cases), House rules. If it's the President of the Senate (for instance, when electoral votes are being counted), then Senate rules.
19:28:04 <ais523> or are those outdated and oldfashioned things that modern Americans ignore/
19:28:47 <coppro> ais523: I believe that procedural rules similar to Robert's are used, but most legislative bodies have unique demands and so unique procedures
19:29:23 <pikhq> It's similar to Robert's rules of order in both cases.
19:30:55 <pikhq> Oh, Robert's Rules of Order is actually based on the rules used in the House.
19:31:25 <coppro> there are weird rules in both of them, IIRC, such as the House of Representatives' use of 'tabling' an item to kill it, and the Senate's filibuster rules
19:32:38 <pikhq> Both the Senate and the House use rules derived from "Manual of Parliamentary Practice for the Use of the Senate of the United States", by Thomas Jefferson...
19:33:31 <pikhq> Which was itself based on British parliamentary procedure.
19:34:22 <ais523> coppro: the filibuster rules in the House of Lords are great, as they require you to actually talk for the entire time period
19:34:37 <pikhq> ais523: Pity the Senate stopped that.
19:34:37 <coppro> that's an actual filibuster
19:34:40 <ais523> which leads to some crazy drunken ramblings, and also talk relays
19:34:52 <coppro> saying 'I don't like this bill' is not a filibuster
19:35:04 <ais523> coppro: the rules about filibusters are quite strict here, but they have to be actual filibusters in addition to meeting the requirements
19:35:07 <pikhq> I'd love to have political ads containing Republicans reading from the phone book.
19:35:08 <ais523> which is kind-of quaint
19:35:41 <pikhq> Maybe they'd stop "filibustering" each and every act of the Senate.
19:36:31 <Vorpal> <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Obama_Health_Care_Speech_to_Joint_Session_of_Congress.jpg This is a bit more what you'd expect, right? <-- still... that is some expensive interior.. Nothing compared to the other ones though
19:37:07 <Vorpal> I mean, that wood looks like mahogany or teak or something to me. Definitely not your everyday wood anyway
19:37:17 <pikhq> Vorpal: Yes, the House has a rather expensive interior. And expansive.
19:37:20 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Then you'd be properly ARMed for all kinds of situations.
19:37:29 <pikhq> It's what people actually *see* of Congress.
19:37:29 <madbrain2> that's not surprising for an institution that large an important
19:38:14 <pikhq> The Senate has 100 people in its chamber, and a tradition of using desks. With names carved into them by each Senator...
19:38:19 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm that pun was oerjan worthy
19:40:00 <Vorpal> pikhq, hm this might be something for you, a few days ago I tried to stuff all 4 variants of affect/effect in a single sentence, only managed 3 though, never figured out how to stuff affect as noun into it as well.
19:40:57 <Vorpal> (optional extra: make it sound natural)
19:42:05 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, that is 3
19:43:06 <Phantom_Hoover> I cant affect how he effects these effects on my affects!
19:43:10 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, or did you mean you don't know what it means as a noun? In that case: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/affect?jss=0
19:43:25 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm... seems to work
19:44:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, "effects these effects" sound a bit redundant though
19:45:10 <Vorpal> indeed it *isn't* redundant
19:45:14 <Vorpal> it just *sounds* redundant
19:46:36 <Phantom_Hoover> I suspect that may actually be fairly correct English.
19:47:11 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, anyway, I can't claim it isn't correct English, however I fail at parsing it
19:47:14 <Phantom_Hoover> I can't affect how these affects effect these effects.
19:47:27 <Vorpal> that is a lot more sensible
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20:39:41 * Sgeo interrobangs Phantom_Hoover
20:41:00 <coppro> the interrobang should be the name of a gun
20:44:23 <coppro> you know it to be true
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20:48:34 <malorie> I'm currently implementing a befunge-intpreter, but I'm facing some stack problems..
20:48:34 <pikhq> *Aaaah*, Kansas (band).
20:48:39 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: need a clone? the magician, nolstein bekkler! executing program. please let me go... put me out! he's really a tricycle! pass him!
20:48:48 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
20:48:53 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct* darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
20:49:04 <pikhq> Chrono Trigger, eh? Heheheh.
20:53:20 <malorie> I'm uncertain about how I should implement the pop instructions. when I abort execution when I try to pop the already empty stack some programs crash. when I just return 0 in such a case (popping the empty stack, that is) everything works fine..
20:54:03 <pikhq> malorie: Which Befunge?
20:54:24 <pikhq> It's either return 0 or undefined behavior.
20:54:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, 98 definitely. But that's because it defines *everything*
20:54:32 <pikhq> I don't recall which.
20:54:44 <pikhq> Go with return 0, though; that's what programs assume.
20:57:59 <malorie> ah. I must have missed that part, then ...
20:59:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Befunge is about the only esolang that actually needs one.
21:05:58 <fizzie> I believe 0-on-empty-stack is a very fundamentally Befungey feature.
21:06:52 <fizzie> (In the spec it's at the very end of the "The Stack" section.)
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21:09:22 <fizzie> There is also the widespread thing that in 93, if you / by zero, the interpreter should ask the user what the result should be, instead of crashing or returning 0. (The funge-98 spec, while saying that there it produces a 0 always, says that "Befunge-93 instead is supposed to ask the user", but the asking is not in the '93 spec-doc.)
21:10:20 <pikhq> In my Befunge 93 interpreter, I didn't implement that. Because I like treating undefined behavior differently. :)
21:11:01 <olsner> heh, #pragma nethack :D
21:11:09 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: No, #pragma nethack.
21:11:20 <pikhq> The other pragmas start a siren.
21:12:19 <pikhq> Except for #pragma gcc, which replaces the translation unit with a portion of gcc source code.
21:13:51 <fizzie> execl("/usr/games/hack", "#pragma", 0);
21:13:51 <fizzie> execl("/usr/games/rogue", "#pragma", 0);
21:13:51 <fizzie> execl("/usr/new/emacs", "-f","hanoi","9","-kill",0);
21:13:51 <fizzie> execl("/usr/local/emacs“,"-f“,"hanoi“,"9“,"-kill“,0);
21:13:51 <fizzie> fatal("You are in a maze of twisty compiler features, all different");
21:14:05 <fizzie> That's very... persistant.
21:14:51 <fizzie> (Makes one wonder in how many places emacs is in /usr/new...)
21:15:49 <Sgeo> Ok, I just used pastie as a verb
21:16:11 <ais523> fizzie: I'm aware of the algo
21:16:21 <ais523> wasn't it later changed to NetHack over Hack?
21:16:39 <Sgeo> It should be switched to Crawl
21:16:48 <Sgeo> </not-THAT-obsessed-with-crawl>
21:17:05 <Sgeo> I wish it was a bit more than "autoexplore, fight monsters, hope to live, rest, repeat"
21:17:55 <ais523> I've been kicked or banned from ##crawl-dev at least twice, IIRC
21:18:03 <Sgeo> ais523, for what o.O
21:18:07 <ais523> (counting a kickban as 1 rather than 2)
21:18:22 <ais523> Sgeo: disagreeing with the Crawl devs to such an extent that whenever I go there I'm basically trolling
21:18:46 <ais523> I left voluntarily, in the end, upon realising I was incapable of doing anything but trolling there
21:18:55 <ais523> I go back occasionally then change my mind soon after
21:19:01 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: the direction the game is going, mostly
21:19:09 <ais523> well, more or less everything else too
21:19:16 <ais523> but that in particular
21:19:23 <Sgeo> what direction?
21:19:49 <ais523> Sgeo: it's the way they're aiming for balance, I think
21:20:12 <ais523> which a) involves removing features quite a bit, b) involves nerfs to things that were valid tactical options, and c) doesn't actually work
21:20:25 <ais523> meanwhile, they're adding a lot of things just for the coolness factor
21:20:40 <pikhq> ais523: Coolness factor?
21:20:52 <ais523> pikhq: "wouldn't it be cool if...", pretty much
21:20:54 <pikhq> Y'know, the best way to do that is The Dev Team Thinks of Everything.
21:21:16 <pikhq> That's the best part about nethack!
21:21:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Wouldn't it be cool if you could have non-Euclidean dungeons?
21:21:18 <ais523> it's more like The Dev Team Yells At Everything They Didn't Think Of
21:21:23 <fizzie> ais523: Re change to nethack, don't know. The GNU FTP site (or at least funet's mirror) only has 1.42 (and then 2.x onwards); but there it's #if 0'd -- /* This was a fun hack, but #pragma seems to start to be useful. By failing to recognize it, we pass it through unchanged to cc1. */ -- and there it tries those four, though only if it can open /dev/tty as stdin/stdout.
21:21:26 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: don't get them started...
21:21:57 <ais523> also, they've made some very unpopular decisions and not even mentioned them in changelogs
21:22:09 <ais523> try going to ##crawl and asking why they dislike acid walls in Slime, or circular ranges
21:22:09 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Nethack could use one. :P
21:33:16 <Sgeo> ais523, I'm scared of irritating someone
21:33:50 <ais523> ##crawl pretty much unanimously agree that acid walls and circular ranges are bad, I think
21:34:07 <ais523> so you're unlikely to irritate someone unless you try to argue in their favour
21:34:11 <ais523> or a dev happens to be looking in
21:34:32 <Sgeo> circular ranges?
21:43:44 <oerjan> um isn't that more or less non-euclidean light?
21:44:21 <oerjan> um what is a range then
21:45:28 <oerjan> ...in that case squares are the non-euclidean version, i guess
21:46:24 <Phantom_Hoover> By "non-Euclidean" I mean that you can shoot yourself in the back of the head without much trouble.
21:47:52 <oerjan> non-orientable non-euclidean is when you shoot yourself in the back of the head, and the arrow has turned into its mirror version.
21:48:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Although the message when you dip a bottle into itself may need revision.
21:49:08 <Phantom_Hoover> "This is a potion bottle, not a Klein bottle!" or somesuch.
21:49:33 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I think you got it verbatim
21:51:08 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: And sticking a bag in itself?
21:51:31 <pikhq> "That would be an interesting topological exercise."
21:53:25 <Sgeo> What does Cra.. wait, Crawl doesn't have bags, does it?
21:53:33 <Sgeo> Just drop it on the floor, ^F will find it for you
21:54:27 <oerjan> hm we discussed this at some point earlier didn't we, and we concluded that the only topologies that could be easily made into square grids were those with euler characteristic 0 or something
21:55:19 <Sgeo> What characteristic is a torus?
21:55:49 <Sgeo> So characteristic doesn't mean uninteresting
21:56:02 <Sgeo> What would Klein be like?
21:56:26 <oerjan> given that torus is about the _simplest_ to do as square layout without borders. i think this was for boundaryless topologies
21:56:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, like a torus, but with one of the edges glued on backwards/
21:56:54 <Sgeo> What would be with both edges on backwards?
21:57:01 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euler_characteristic#Examples
21:57:12 <Sgeo> Why wouldn't that work?
21:57:13 <oerjan> projective plane has 1, sphere has 2
21:57:41 <olsner> eh, how do you do that to a torus?
21:58:12 <oerjan> torus is just left edge wrapping to right, and top to bottom
21:59:16 <Phantom_Hoover> For the Moore neighbourhood (i.e. a square grid), for each face, there are 2 edges and 1 vertex. V-E+F=1-2+1=0
21:59:17 <olsner> oerjan: ooh, I actually understand that
21:59:26 <olsner> so how do you do it backwards?
21:59:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, so only a surface with EC 0 can have a Moore neighbourhood on it.
21:59:57 <oerjan> you wrap say top edge to bottom _reversed_
21:59:58 <ais523> hmm, where's AnMaster?
22:00:07 <Sgeo> Moore neighborhood?
22:00:24 <olsner> ah, "left" of top to "right" of bottom? this is awesome
22:00:34 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, ty
22:00:59 <oerjan> olsner: like you make a mobius strip, except you _also_ stitch together the edges of it
22:01:13 <oerjan> (which cannot be done in 3D physics)
22:01:52 <oerjan> *the edge of it, there's just one
22:01:56 <olsner> can it in 4D or higher dimensional physics?
22:02:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_polygon#Examples has the mappings for the edges for a sphere, projective plane, Klein bottle and toruss.
22:02:39 <oerjan> well, you can put the klein bottle in 4D without self-intersection
22:02:41 <ais523> any Linux users here willing to help me with a C-INTERCAL related task?
22:03:00 <ais523> the repo's up publically at git://gitorious.org/intercal/intercal-trial.git now
22:03:17 <ais523> ESR's asked me to test it, but I can't because my laptop's having issues
22:03:31 <ais523> so I'd like someone else to try to check it out and build it
22:03:38 * Sgeo attempts to grasp what the arrow represents
22:04:00 <Sgeo> If you are at the tip of an arrow of one color, you're at the tip of the other arrow of that color
22:04:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, if something goes off the edge at an arrow, it comes out at the corresponding location on the matching arrow.
22:04:24 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, where is that explained?
22:04:55 <Sgeo> That's remarkably unhelpful of Wikipedia
22:06:18 <ais523> try to build it using whatever technique you'd normally use to build arbitrary Linux programs
22:06:26 <ais523> also, try "make distcheck"
22:07:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, I needed to chmod configure, but that's incidental.
22:07:30 <ais523> I'll make sure I mention that
22:08:13 <Phantom_Hoover> "make[1]: *** No rule to make target `src/atari.bin', needed by `atari.o'. Stop.
22:08:13 <Phantom_Hoover> make[1]: Leaving directory `/home/phantomhoover/Programs/intercal-trial'
22:09:36 <ais523> looks like there are some problems
22:10:09 <ais523> is the file "atari.bin" anywhere in the repo?
22:10:55 <ais523> hmm, apparently not (I'm browsing it online)
22:11:36 * oerjan wonders why you would want to generate an atari.o
22:12:55 <Phantom_Hoover> FWIW, 'find . -iname "*atari*"' comes up with nothing.
22:13:35 <Sgeo> Obviously, you have the code for the ET game in the same directory by accident
22:13:48 <ais523> yep, I see, he deleted it by mistake
22:14:06 <ais523> oerjan: it's for the Atari character set
22:14:35 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: if you're still interested in trying to help, there are copies of the .bin files in the tarball on c.intercal.org.uk
22:14:48 <ais523> does it build if they're restored?
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22:17:07 <Phantom_Hoover> You've lost *all* of the bin files, by the looks of it.
22:18:03 <ais523> it seems ESR just deleted *.bin without checking for source vs. derived
22:18:09 <ais523> but they should all be there
22:21:45 <ais523> does make distcheck complain, or give a bunch of tarballs?
22:22:25 <pikhq> God dammit Japan, why why why?
22:22:37 <pikhq> Their municipal power is 100v, 50Hz or 60Hz.
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22:22:44 <pikhq> *How does this make any sense*?
22:23:17 <ais523> pikhq: so you can play either UK or US games
22:23:30 <Phantom_Hoover> make: *** No rule to make target `doc/ick.txt', needed by `distdir'. Stop.
22:23:37 <pikhq> ais523: TV is all NTSC-J.
22:23:57 <ais523> is there a makefile in doc itself?
22:24:03 <pikhq> (a variant of NTSC with a different black level)
22:24:21 <ais523> try make doc[tabcomplete]
22:26:02 <ais523> I wonder if ick.txt is generated at all?
22:26:29 <ais523> how does doc/ick.txi compare to doc/ick.txt in the c.intercal.org.uk tarball?
22:26:48 <ais523> how does doc/ick.txi compare to doc/ick.txt, then?
22:27:07 <ais523> I'm wondering if it's generated or not
22:27:12 <ais523> and if it is, why the makefile doesn't generate it
22:28:05 <ais523> ick.txi doesn't contain any of the sentences in ick.txt?
22:28:34 <ais523> meh, pastebin ick.txt (I don't have an untar here) and I'll compare it to the ick.txi in the repo
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22:29:57 <ais523> looks like a build system bug
22:30:33 <ais523> he's trying to delete all generated files
22:30:39 <ais523> because I used to version them all, by mistake
22:30:47 <ais523> and it's bizzare that the makefile doesn't have a rule to build it
22:31:26 <ais523> oh, it's in doc/Makefile
22:31:40 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: what if you cd to doc and run "make ick.txt"
22:32:41 <Sgeo> What's ick.txt?
22:32:46 <ais523> does make distcheck work now?
22:33:12 <Sgeo> Then what's ESR? Not the person...
22:33:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, the Knuth thing is that ESR said that Knuth wanted him to make a new version of intercal.
22:33:41 <ais523> ESR and I are doing a joint project at Knuth's request
22:34:18 <Sgeo> INTERCAL will be the new Smalltalk.. erm, the new Java?
22:34:32 <ais523> (that's just a guess; I haven't a clue behind his motivation)
22:40:34 <ais523> mostly reconstructing the history into a sane repo
22:40:39 <ais523> then just merging my branch and his branch
22:41:56 <coppro> he may find it amusing
22:42:08 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, if you were making interesting changes, then maybe, but boring bookkeeping?
22:42:50 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: he just wants a new version
22:43:02 <ais523> I don't think he much cares about the process used to reach one
22:43:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Does he want to make the ultimate nerd joke in the numbering?
22:43:21 <ais523> that's what you recruit /other/ internet celebrities for
22:43:31 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: such as version numbers going from right to left?
22:46:39 <tombom> there are 10 kinds of people: those who understand binary, those who don't, and those who can tell just by looking at a number that it's base 3
22:46:53 <tombom> but i'm sure there's some humor potential there.
22:51:03 <pikhq> ... Dear God the US is cruel on its treatment of flights.
22:51:30 <pikhq> So, if you are not from a country with a visa waiver program, if you take a flight that for any reason lands in the US, you need a visa.
22:51:44 <pikhq> Yes, this includes fueling stops.
22:52:10 <pikhq> If you leave the plane, you need to go through customs.
22:52:33 <pikhq> Just... How does that make any sense at all?
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22:59:39 <pikhq> Sitting in the plane while they put fuel in it requires a visa.
23:00:04 <tombom> the turrists are resourceful
23:01:25 <pikhq> Apparently not resourceful enough to go to Canada and walk across the border.
23:02:24 <coppro> pikhq: they also want personal info of anyone flying over the US
23:04:25 <ais523> pikhq: isn't that border really well guarded nowadays?
23:04:41 <ais523> canadian airports are hilarious, they have two sections, "flights to the US" and "flights to everywhere else"
23:04:54 <ais523> the first has much crazier security
23:05:53 <pikhq> ais523: No, the Canadian border is completely unguarded.
23:07:07 <pikhq> Ah, not completely unguarded.
23:07:31 <pikhq> There's sensors scattered on road & trails to note if some *thing* crosses.
23:07:46 <pikhq> But there's nobody checking a lot of it, for obvious reasons.
23:12:13 <pikhq> The US-Russia border is *completely* unguarded.
23:12:22 <pikhq> But you'd be bloody insane for crossing it.
23:12:25 <ais523> isn't it entirely water?
23:12:38 <ais523> (and it has been crossed, in a vehicle designed for the purpose)
23:12:55 <pikhq> No ice. Just a very small patch of shallow water between two islands, one of which is inhabited.
23:13:11 <pikhq> (the entire Bering Strait is very shallow)
23:14:04 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Diomede_Islands_Bering_Sea_Jul_2006.jpg The US-Russia border.
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23:20:29 <pikhq> *sigh* There is absolutely no sense at all in the US-Canada border being at all guarded.
23:20:39 <pikhq> Why can't it just be "Welcome to Canada"?
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23:40:14 <Sgeo> "It is easy to figure out /my/ speed, since I walk at a constant speed," Recordis said proudly.
23:44:35 <malorie> "I understand how the engines work now. It came to me in a dream. The engines don't move the ship _at_ _all_. The ship stays where it is and the engines move the universe around it." -- Cubert Farnsworth
23:46:02 <Sgeo> No love for Calculus the Easy Way?
23:46:58 <pikhq> Oddly, I own it but have not read it.
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23:54:23 <Sgeo> "Ys, we know what you mean," the professor said quickly, before Recordis had a chance to say that they could write the same rule for five functions added together.
23:55:39 <pikhq> coppro: Of course, I imagine Canada gets a lot of its immigration policy fed to it by the US, and the US's immigration policy is governed by racists and idiots.
23:56:38 <coppro> pikhq: as far as the border, yes
23:57:08 <coppro> our immigration approach is not a major point of US influence though
23:57:21 <pikhq> Things like "actually moving to Canada" are at least san*er* than the US.
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23:57:43 <coppro> the Boundary Commission is a joint organization
23:57:46 <pikhq> (namely, it is actually possible to do so!)
00:01:45 * coppro declares emself Zinc Saucier of this channel
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00:18:29 <Sgeo> Recordis does not like imaginary numbers
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00:37:40 <nooga> do we have some esolangs utilising fuzzy logic ?
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00:40:07 <oerjan> no relevant hits on the wiki
00:40:23 <rrn> What would be a suitable high-level design for a Brainfuck machine? (analogous to a Lisp machine)
00:41:16 <zzo38> My D&D character is allowed to bite themself without being poisoned from biting themself.
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00:42:45 <zzo38> rrn: (Who is quit, but might read the log): I don't think brainfuck is meant for high-level design, like taht?
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00:47:35 <zzo38> Some people state that the programming language AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!! came first before the Uncyclopedia article about the same thing. (Actually I wrote the programming language article afterward.)
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00:48:12 <zzo38> I don't know whether it did come first in Uncyclopedia, though. It might have been first in a text-adventure game, or maybe not. Because, there is a text-adventure-game about AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!! as well.
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00:49:53 <oerjan> there might have been some monty python inspiration, perhaps
00:51:02 <zzo38> Someone named "dharmaBum" has written a list of their favorite esolangs. Two of them are ones that I invented. Two other guys replied and specified LOLCODE and Whitespace as other esolangs those people like.
00:52:05 <zzo38> Someone wrote a Wikipedia article about the AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!! programming language (in their userpage namespace).
00:52:35 <GreaseMonkey> it'd be interesting making a game for ld48 in befunge
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01:00:30 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_12/AAAA_esolangs.png
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01:12:53 <zzo38> There are some programs that do Forth syntax highlighting. But in my opinion that won't work very well unless you write the syntax highlighter itself in Forth
01:17:18 <zzo38> IRC syntax highlighting can be done easily in many program language, though. I have written a IRC syntax highlighting program in PHP (although my program uses escape codes to set colors, rather than HTML codes).
01:18:43 <zzo38> 3 3 * 3 + 3 - . 9 ok
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01:37:58 <pikhq> Well, that was *fun*.
01:38:04 <pikhq> I make dinner and get yelled at for it.
01:38:18 <pikhq> "NOOOO I DONT WANT STEAK HOW DARE YOU"
01:38:43 <sebbu> pikhq, that'll learn you not to try to be nice to ppl
01:39:31 <pikhq> Just my little sister. Who seems to be absolutely appalled that most of what I do is "sit on the computer".
01:40:10 <pikhq> ... Yes, because when I do anything else at home when she's around I have to deal with that BS...
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02:10:47 <Sgeo> The "sit on the computer" anger sounds familiar to me :(
02:12:02 <Sgeo> I think AW might be around for a while
02:12:58 * oerjan snickers at vg.no's error page
02:18:01 * oerjan reloads reddit instead
02:19:25 <Sgeo> Dear God. Remember that game we were making? It's closed for a while. It wasn't open very long. People are complaining
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03:02:16 <zzo38> What game were you making?
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03:35:22 <Mathnerd314> Almost 50 people, yet not one of them has anything to say. Whereas, at school, I can't even get one of them to shut up. Oh the irony of life. :-)
03:36:01 <zzo38> O NO YOU FORGOT THE BOOK. O NO, THE IRONY OF FORGETTING THE BOOK FOR SCHOOL.
03:36:58 <zzo38> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/FANJIX Please look, write comment of it
03:40:40 <zzo38> It has twenty-one registers
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03:52:58 <zzo38> Can you build FANJIX computer?
03:56:41 <zzo38> Should I invent a way to use OpenID with SSH?
03:57:21 <zzo38> (As well as with any other protocol or computer program?)
04:01:33 <zzo38> OpenID with SSH (and other protocols) can use a parameter "&nohtml=1" at end of the URL, and then the client puts that parameter there and then prompts the user and stuff, before sending result to the server you are log on to. And then that server can communicate with the OpenID in normal way, afterward.
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09:23:32 <coppro> I am torrenting a futurama episode and the preview my client shows is hypnotoad. how appropriate
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09:25:05 <olsner> for this specific episode, or for futurama in general?
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09:26:39 <coppro> I haven't watched the episode yet (it's season 6)
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10:04:03 <yiyus> coppro: it is the first chapter, isn't it?
10:16:11 * coppro applies episode 2 directly to his eyes
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12:13:09 <Peping> hello. I jus wanted to know if the [] loop in brainfuck was a "while" loop or a "do... while" loop.
12:15:01 <Peping> so just to make sure. It skips to its ] counterpart (on the same loop level), when the script runs into it and the memory cell equals to 0
12:17:33 <fizzie> Or one past it's matching ] if you want to think about it like that.
12:18:44 <Peping> right. Thank you. That explains the malfunction in my interpreter :D
12:20:22 <fizzie> The while-ness of it is pretty useful, since you can use [xxx[-]] as an if. (Or a "while (*p) { xxx; *p = 0; }" to be more exact, but that's close to an if anyway.)
12:22:37 <oerjan> if it weren't a while, there would be no way to skip code
12:23:00 <Peping> so if my interpreter runs into a "[" and *p ==0 then it has to find its correct "]" counterpart. Got it and coding :D
12:23:29 <fizzie> oerjan: Every op is sacred! No op left behind! Skipping is discrimination!
12:25:36 <fizzie> Many people pre-process the code and match [] pairs in advance, saving the "jump here" offsets somewhere; makes for less scanning when executing. I think fungot's internal representation makes them into conditional jumps like that too.
12:25:37 <fungot> fizzie: the masamune!! crono!!
12:26:20 <fizzie> fungot: Could that sword alone stop it now?
12:26:20 <fungot> fizzie: cyrus! are you leaving! what you do? wake you, but need dactyl?
12:27:19 <fizzie> fungot: Well, I *am* a bit hungry, maybe one dactyl wing would hit the spot. (Those are probably endangered species, though?)
12:27:19 <fungot> fizzie: we are looking to achieve a shorter life span... lavos will rule the world in a mere door that keeps us bound, hand, foot...and tongue kid? ...oh, it's you, isn't this morbid? the great adventurer toma levine rests in a grave to the north. it's a great place for a picnic! heard that magus's statue before my shift. i hate! ayla not like...
12:27:51 <fizzie> (Maybe that's enough nonsense for now.)
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14:01:50 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Many people pre-process the code and match [] pairs in advance, saving the "jump here" offsets somewhere; makes for less scanning when executing. I think fungot's internal representation makes them into conditional jumps like that too. <-- uh
14:01:50 <fungot> Vorpal: the masamune!! those who dare you pick on a helpless amphibian! filthy medal! i won't forget this!
14:02:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, I thought the obvious way was to make a linked list and then put the body in car for loops
14:02:40 <Vorpal> you need to keep a stack when executing of course, to find your way back
14:03:25 <Vorpal> but it is easier to handle when optimising and easy to implement too
14:03:27 <fizzie> "Obvious" and "linked list" in a Befunge implementation don't sound like they belong in the same sentence. Compared to having the underlying bytecode just have opcodes for "if true, set ip to X" and "if false, set ip to X", and populate those when parsing.
14:03:39 <Vorpal> fizzie, well in general I meant
14:03:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, the first sentence on that line didn't mention fungot
14:03:58 <fungot> Vorpal: cyrus! are you leaving!
14:04:07 <fungot> Vorpal: we are looking, but well behaved! crono!! crono!! crono!!
14:05:02 <fizzie> I couldn't say which one's easier to implement, but the []-matching with stored offsets is more "obvious" to me. Of course obviousity here is in the eye of the beholder.
14:05:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway the obvious way for befunge is to compile it into befunge.
14:06:51 <Vorpal> using something along the lines of: ;j40;# _ to implement the end of the loop
14:07:01 <Vorpal> need some catching area at the start to turn IP around of course
14:07:06 <Vorpal> and some : there I thing
14:07:31 <Vorpal> and 40 was backwards, was thinking *4a
14:08:15 <fizzie> That sounds even less "obvious" to me. And it needs the annoying number-to-code conversion.
14:09:14 <fizzie> The jump offsets to some sort of arithmetic expression, like that *4a.
14:09:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, why? '<binary value>
14:09:44 <Vorpal> well <binary value>' when going that way obviously
14:10:40 <fizzie> Mmaybe, though that makes saving-to-file more complicated.
14:11:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, well why do you want to save it? It wouldn't make much sense for fungots ^bf command
14:11:07 <fungot> Vorpal: it's a machine that looks like you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. please let me go... put me out! he's really a tricycle! pass him!
14:11:43 <fizzie> I assumed that was what you were advocating it for. I mean, he's befunge.
14:12:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, well yes he would compile the program and run it, but save it?
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14:13:07 <fizzie> Because I'd rather keep the processed code around, instead of recompiling on each execution.
14:13:23 <Vorpal> oh right, forgot about saving commands
14:13:25 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
14:14:07 <fizzie> I guess I could keep the original bf code, it's useful for ^show anyway.
14:14:25 <fizzie> (Currently it reconstructs it from the bytecode, which is sufficiently simple for that.)
14:15:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, did you fix the combining bug?
14:15:39 <fizzie> ^def test bf +++--->>><<< a comment here []
14:17:38 <fizzie> Oh, I think it's just a wrong row number there.
14:21:22 <fizzie> ^def test bf +++--->>><<< a comment here []
14:23:53 <fizzie> It would be a good idea to re-^def any performance-critical bf commands now, to save a bit on repeated >s, but unfortunately there aren't any.
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16:38:47 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover_: there! there it is! but by the time we're through with you, you'll be in danger. open hatch.
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16:55:55 <ais523> "Add META tags to assist Alta Vista searches"
16:56:07 <ais523> the sort of thing I like to see in an INTERCAL repository
17:01:31 <fizzie> fungot: Try not to threaten people so much, it kind of gives the game away a bit.
17:01:31 <fungot> fizzie: is the gate key okay!! get' em! 200g per night. care, and stay...healthy! my husband...he's...he's...gone... but he left me precious gifts! the seeds...and our child, it's ancient history now...
17:01:52 <fizzie> That "stay... healthy!" is somewhat ominous too.
17:09:28 <ais523> even more amusingly, it wasn't purely ironic
17:09:38 <ais523> the datetag is one on which that would be a sensible thing to do
17:09:38 <Phantom_Hoover_> The point of C-INTERCAL is to be standards-compliant in a creative way, yes.
17:10:53 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover_: one of them
17:10:58 <ais523> <Google> The general standard in Google code is to restrict lines to eighty columns. It is recommended that INTERCAL code be restricted to seventy-two columns, so that the last eight columns can be used to punch sequence numbers. If you think that's a perfectly idiotic idea, then you are welcome to use eighty columns, on the condition that if anybody drops a deck of punch cards containing your code, you're the one who has to put it all back in
17:10:59 <ais523> sequence again. You want to sign up for that? Yeah, didn't think so.
17:18:12 <ais523> http://cadie.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/INTERCAL-style-guide.html
17:19:36 <ais523> which reminds me, there's another bug in CADIE I need to fix
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17:37:54 <Phantom_Hoover_> "Setting .5 to #2/#3 instead of #1/#2" ← I'm not sure I want to know what that's about...
17:42:56 <ais523> a dubious "optimisation" that I'm annoyed at Google for even inventing
17:43:01 <ais523> #1/#2 is the One True Way
17:43:07 <ais523> (I've even experimented with #0/#1, actually)
17:43:32 <ais523> INTERCAL doesn't have built-in booleans
17:43:44 <ais523> and what values to use for true and false is occasionally debated as a result
17:49:32 <ais523> oh, #1 and #2 are the easiest values to use in INTERCAL-72 flow control commands
17:49:36 <ais523> but a pain to generate via expressions
17:49:45 <ais523> so the idea is that you can gain shorter expressions by using #2 and #3 instead
17:49:54 <ais523> at the expense of some nastier flow control
17:50:13 <ais523> that's the wrong way round
17:50:20 <ais523> you generate them both from #0 and #1
17:50:33 <ais523> but generating #2 and #3 from #0 and #1 is easy (just left-mingle 1)
17:50:41 <ais523> and generating #1 and #2 from #0 and #1 is rather harder
17:51:10 <ais523> on the other hand, C-INTERCAL optimises the latter optimisation into adding 1 (and the former into logical-ORing with 2), so it really doesn't matter in the final compiled code nowadyas
17:54:42 <ais523> in CLC-INTERCAL, #0 and #1 are more convenient anyway as the flow control is different
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18:20:40 * Sgeo is still offended by Calculus the Easy Way not having a page on TV Tropes
18:21:24 <Sgeo> Because, it should. It's a fantasy novel
18:22:36 <Phantom_Hoover_> I am still bitter that there does not exist CoreWars fanfic.
18:24:16 <ais523> someone should write it
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18:26:30 <Sgeo> "What last one?" Recordis said, turning around. "Oh, that last one. It looks as though we didn't do it yesterday, so I think we should forget it."
18:26:52 <Sgeo> "But you already wrote it on the plate, so we can't erase it," the king said. "We should try to find out what it is."
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19:58:05 <Vorpal> how strange, I was using encfs and one encrypted filename matches something my wlan ssid for the first 11 chars. That seems extremely unlikely
19:58:33 <Vorpal> (note my ssid is generated by filtering /dev/random for printable chars)
19:58:47 <ais523> they're both hex, aren't they?
19:58:52 <Vorpal> ais523, no, neither is hex
19:59:01 <ais523> OK, that is ridiculously unlikely
19:59:04 <Vorpal> they are alphanumeric (case mattering)
19:59:15 <Vorpal> ais523, exactly why I reacted like this!
19:59:36 <Vorpal> well, not sure case matters in ssid, I guess it does though
20:00:37 <Vorpal> ais523, still, even though ridiculously unlikely it is bound to happen sooner or later. I'm glad it wasn't the PSK that it matched though.
20:00:51 <Vorpal> well, the other 40 or so chars of the ssid don't match the filename
20:04:56 <Vorpal> ais523, I suspect calculating chances for this happening would be near impossible since the possible charsets are not the same, and the filename is encrypted by AES in block mode with some IV chaining thing, so it would round up to whole block sizes and so on
20:05:06 <Vorpal> I would not even attempt to calculate the changes for that
20:05:42 <Vorpal> oh and it depends on whole path under mount point for the fs too...
20:11:25 <nooga> anyone played COLOBOT ? :D
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20:54:33 <Phantom_Hoover_> I mean, if you're going to _publish the bloody source under the GPL_, you should really make it less of a chore to get the actual game.
20:56:11 <oerjan> wait, can the binary be non-free if the source is GPL?
20:56:36 <oerjan> it'd be a derivative work, wouldn't it
20:56:45 <olsner> the resources can be closed-source
20:57:04 <olsner> all the other stuff that together with the game engine makes a game
20:57:29 <Phantom_Hoover_> My understanding is that it's the data and stuff that's proprietary.
20:58:30 <oerjan> wouldn't it be more like fsfing
20:58:55 <Phantom_Hoover_> Because the data files themselves have to be acquired by *buying Freespace 2*.
21:00:15 <Phantom_Hoover_> There is no reason at all that the data files should have to be bought.
21:01:33 <nooga> that's why OpenTTD finally did its own data files
21:01:46 <Phantom_Hoover_> But naturally, a game that is more than a decade old is still fully protected by the stupidity of copyright law.
21:01:51 <nooga> because legally obtaining original TTD data files was almost impossible
21:03:06 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover_: It would make a bit more sense if the game were still being sold.
21:03:30 <pikhq> I can at least understand the reasoning for, say, Starcraft.
21:06:48 <Sgeo> Maybe I should try it
21:06:55 <Sgeo> Never played Starcraft before
21:08:43 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover_, so was mind. Busy making me breathe, my heart beat, etc. Doesn't mean I can't tell...
21:08:50 * Sgeo stops antagonizing Phantom_Hoover_
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21:51:46 <fizzie> Gahhh friggin wacom tablet. "non-TwinView and non-Xinerama setup: In this setup, we only support tablet to a specific screen mapping, that is, you have to map the tablet to a specific screen by option "ScreenNo". Otherwise, your tablet may be mapped half on the first screen and the other half on the second screen."
21:52:08 <fizzie> Okay, so I map it with xsetwacom Screen_No into the leftmost monitor. This is the resulting behaviour:
21:52:24 <fizzie> "It seems to map the cursor so that the full tablet surface is mapped over the left monitor (1600x1200 at 0,0), then those positions are considered as a fraction of the full X desktop (4544x1280 pixels), and those absolute values are scaled and mapped to the left monitor."
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21:54:01 <olsner> hmm, so then the tablet controls the upper left corner of the left screen?
21:54:47 <fizzie> Yes, it controls approximately the left third of the left screen, expecting the bottom 75 pixels.
21:55:49 <fizzie> It's arguably better than the "default" configuration, where the left third of the tablet was mapped to left third of left screen, center third to center third of center screen, and right third to right third of right screen, but not by much.
21:56:29 <olsner> how did they manage to implement this? this sounds *harder* to do than just making it... sane
21:57:22 <fizzie> The "xsetwacom" tool reports there should be properties S{Top,Bottom}{X,Y}{0,1,2,...} that hold the screen sizes in pixels. I was hoping to use those to fake things so that it'd end up working properly, but the values for screens 1, 2, ... give "Property offset doesn't exist.", and the ones for screen 0 (that are correct for the middle screen) give "X is a read-only option."
22:04:02 * Phantom_Hoover concludes that Google doesn't think we exists. fungot, comment.
22:04:03 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: there! there it is! but by the time we're through with you, you'll be in danger. open hatch. better stay away!
22:04:16 <Sgeo> Oh, _you_ pinged me
22:05:39 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
22:05:56 <Sgeo> fungot, die die die
22:05:56 <fungot> Sgeo: we are looking, but well behaved! crono!!! let's toast our land! now we'll have some peace! magus is a tad on the spooky side. our only hope. wonder how everyone! humans! they're my friends!
22:06:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, it doesn't contain "kill Phantom_Hoover" anyway!
22:06:47 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: and you call yourself a frog, and ayla... i will not betray my friends!
22:07:09 <nooga> doctor who, epic ending
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22:07:23 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: it's time you jumped off this mortal coil... me proud! well, remember that you can log in anywhere on the world map! need a brief weapons and items seminar?
22:07:56 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this world are places like that. a peaceful. hah! you think you are? coming and going out! he's really a tricycle! pass him!
22:08:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Why in the name of god does Chrono Trigger contain the phrase "He's really a tricycle!"
22:09:00 <nooga> fungot is the GM now
22:09:01 <fungot> nooga: cyrus! are you leaving! where're you from? why you here?0ckino no like you! and leene and the masamune!!
22:09:24 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: you! take! we find!...... how cruel! umm! thanks! it's about the missing queen. she still looks so much like leene, that they will take you to your place of execution?! strange, but!?
22:09:40 <Phantom_Hoover> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
22:10:07 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Woolsey.
22:10:51 <pikhq> The same man responsible for "Son of a submariner!"
22:11:50 <Phantom_Hoover> fungot, I'm already a Phantom! You don't need to kill me!
22:11:50 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: cyrus! are you leaving! epoch...become bird!! crono!! they're escaping! 1b is escaping! 1b is escaping! so! that cathedral to the west?... yes! well then rest and relax! huh?
22:12:19 <fungot> olsner: the king awaits. you saved our queen? you see, the mammon machine! elder! the mountain of woe. it's likely that dalton came from the laboratories to the west?... yes! well then rest and relax! huh?
22:12:28 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop, crono! lucca's device is all we could get... out! he's really a tricycle! pass him! he lives! so! that cathedral to the west?... yes! well then rest and relax! huh?
22:13:30 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: by thy leave, crono?!! you brought back my cat! thank you, crono! crono...!
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22:13:49 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. please let me go... put me out! he's really a tricycle! pass him!
22:14:00 <fungot> olsner: and you call yourself a frog, and ayla... i will not betray my friends! did you people just come out of the closet? get out?! hey! is that for us! the chef's in a snit, trying to get food to the front lines. heard a spell to energize the sword takes immense evil! indeed! this thing. what you have? transform! this trading house. it's the kind! i've decided to stay with these humans! you're a traitor! you're not our king!
22:14:58 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: i see. you know, i really care... a time portal? what in the...! ozzie's stumped! wouldn't make it very far, and you must now carry out his sentence. hold your horses! i want to dance! ladeedadeeda! got some spending so much of his time doing research on lavos. but you have it...determination, i mean...
22:15:07 <olsner> maybe betraying his friends would be not killing Phantom_Hoover
22:15:29 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: time to shove off! the name's bandeau. here to build the ocean palace? sit down at the pier again? that fritz! where could sir cyrus be? miss you.
22:15:30 <Phantom_Hoover> <fungot> olsner: and you call yourself a frog, and ayla... i will not betray my friends!
22:15:30 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: see? i like marle better than " princess,' the chosen time has come! he's strong and he's gonna thrash those monsters! yea! is it? want to see your face! the king's room. the queen awaits. you saved our queen? you see, the mammon machine!
22:16:26 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: but, we are far outnumbered! i'll wish! we shall hold this position to the last man! big fire where lavos fall from sky! we no can call that the chrono trigger. it is r66-y? cool? who knows what would become of my mystics? i must win!
22:20:09 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct* darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
22:20:49 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: A submariner is a man who operates a submarine.
22:21:03 <pikhq> As for why it's an insult? I dunno.
22:21:37 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: It was completely and utterly different, like most of the rest of the script for FFVI.
22:21:57 <pikhq> Woolsey basically wrote a different script with the same plot.
22:23:19 <oerjan> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Woolseyism
22:24:41 <oerjan> either you're _very_ weak or you were on tvtropes before i pasted that url
22:24:44 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: There are no submarines.
22:26:23 <oerjan> heh, "son of a submariner" is in the picture
22:27:10 <Sgeo> As far as I know, Woolsey is a character in the Stargate franchise
22:27:21 <Sgeo> How can he write any scripts for anything?
22:28:15 <pikhq> Sgeo: Woolsey is a translator.
22:28:57 <Sgeo> After all, who can think of Final Fantasy IV without wanting to scream "You Spoony Bard!" at the top of their lungs?
22:29:05 <Sgeo> I can, especially since I've never played FFIV
22:29:52 <pikhq> Sgeo: The bard was, in fact, quite spoony.
22:32:00 <fizzie> They have that castle that can go underground and "surface" in deserts; you could sort-of call it a submarine. I think in the picture the castle has just submerged and they've escaped Kefka. Not that it necessarily has anything to do with the insult.
22:32:36 <pikhq> Also, nor have I, though it is on my queue.
22:35:06 <fizzie> Ah, it's mentioned in the article.
22:35:11 <fizzie> "Funny enough, the remake changed, among other things, Kefka's line in said picture to "son of a sandworm". Both work in the context, but there are no submarines in the game. Unless you count Figaro castle, though it only dives into sand."
22:38:36 <pikhq> "You spoony bard" remained in the IV remake. As the bard was spoony.
22:39:36 <olsner> what exactly is it that makes a bard spoony?
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22:42:16 <Sgeo> Maybe I should return to Uru
22:42:35 <Sgeo> mystonline.con
22:42:38 <pikhq> olsner: spoony, adj. Sentimental, gushy.
22:42:40 <Sgeo> mystonline.com
22:45:33 <Sgeo> It's actually a game this time!
22:45:41 <Slereah> I guess we will need to torture it out of him
22:46:30 <Slereah> `swedish I WILL DESTROY YOU, SGEO
22:46:35 <Slereah> !swedish I WILL DESTROY YOU, SGEO
22:46:42 <EgoBot> I VILL DESTROY YOOo, SGEO
22:47:11 <Sgeo> !swedish I will destroy you, Sgeo
22:47:12 <EgoBot> I veell destruy yuoo, Sgeu
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22:47:35 <olsner> the first one was actually not a half-bad emulation of swedish broken english
22:47:49 <olsner> but "veell" is a bit over-the top
22:48:00 <Slereah> This channel has like a million bots
22:49:01 <olsner> you wouldn't say "destroy" in swedish though, I think you'd have to change it to "I will crush you" or something instead
22:49:23 <pikhq> !swedish I will destroy you, Sgeo.
22:49:24 <EgoBot> I veell destruy yuoo, Sgeu. Bork Bork Bork!
22:49:47 <Sgeo> fungot, why are you dead?
22:49:47 <fungot> Sgeo: but, we are far outnumbered!
22:49:51 <pikhq> !swedish Bork. Bork. Bork.
22:49:52 <EgoBot> Burk. Bork. Bork. Bork Bork Bork!
22:49:57 <Sgeo> Good reason to be dead, really
22:50:12 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: it's time you jumped off this mortal coil...
22:50:19 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: that no one was allowed to use the crane, enter any two of these letters, a b y.
22:50:46 <Sgeo> fungot and Phantom_Hoover, sitting in a tree. D Y I N I N G
22:50:46 <fungot> Sgeo: yes, it's been awhile prometheus! magus is a tad on the spooky side. our only hope. wonder how everyone! humans! they're my friends!
22:51:56 <Sgeo> Oh god, that brought back a bad memory relating to my stepmother
22:53:05 <Sgeo> I'm going to wait for someone to act disgusted before I reveal what that memory is, which is disgusting but in a different way
22:54:39 <Sgeo> I mentioned a girl I liked at the time. I tended to mention her a lot. So my stepmother (who was completely against any such thing, as the girl had a non-Jewish name), said "Seth and <girl's name> sitting in a tree. K I L L I N G"
22:54:56 <olsner> disgusted? in this channel? I'd disregard it as hogwash ages before getting disgusted, long before
22:55:14 <Sgeo> You didn't already know that?
22:55:18 <Sgeo> And my last name is not Geo
22:55:50 <Sgeo> I thought everyone here knew my full name
22:56:04 <Sgeo> [queue alise shouting it from the rooftops]
22:57:22 <olsner> why would anyone in this channel reveal his (or her) name? I wouldn't trust you
22:57:38 <olsner> then again it's trivial to figure out who I am, sadly
22:57:40 <Vorpal> my comment was unrelated
22:58:01 <olsner> whut, I don't know any of their names
22:58:16 * Sgeo knows alise's name
22:58:34 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, Alex Smith, Ørjan Johansen, Arvid Nolander, Eliott Hird.
22:59:19 <Vorpal> just a side note, I know ais and alise names. And I just checked and found oerjan's name. No clue about olsner thoygh. Oh and obviously I know my own name)
22:59:21 <olsner> oh, Vorpal is swedish then?
22:59:37 <Vorpal> olsner, I changed nick some week(s) ago
22:59:57 <olsner> ehm, no, you are now Vorpal, that is what you are
23:00:00 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, Deewiant too
23:00:22 <Sgeo> No, you're only one or the other
23:00:23 <fizzie> My name is right there in the /whois, it's not like it takes special detective skills to find out.
23:00:26 <Vorpal> olsner, on one network I change nick in a round robin way
23:00:41 <olsner> I like vorpal better than anmaster though, more original
23:00:46 <oerjan> *Nylander, i'm fairly sure
23:01:22 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover can't spell my name
23:01:39 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: heh, maybe not original then... but it's original to *me* since I haven't seen it anywhere else
23:01:51 <oerjan> Ny- and Nor- are more plausible than No-
23:01:52 <Vorpal> I know a nylander btw. Talked to her today as a matter of fact. Over some fairly boring university things.
23:02:41 <Sgeo> Wow, no one here is capable of grepping logs, obviously
23:02:53 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:03:03 <fizzie> Sgeo: Our religion forbids grepping.
23:03:04 <olsner> bah, why bother when you can just ask other people to do it for you :P
23:03:23 <Vorpal> oerjan, fun thing recently, I called some company about a warranty, and when I told my name and pointed out the usual "Nor-, inte Nord-" the person at the other end replied "va lustigt, jag heter ju Nordlander"
23:05:22 <Vorpal> yeah, neither variant is *that* common. It isn't like Svensson or Smith or something like that.
23:05:45 <Vorpal> anyway *NIGHT* really now *turns off monitor and hits enter afterwards*
23:06:01 <Sgeo> Someone could still ping V*rpal
23:06:15 <olsner> yep, then he'll just *Have* to turn the monitor back on to check
23:06:35 * Sgeo isn't evil enough
23:07:08 <olsner> unless he's just joking
23:07:19 <Sgeo> He might sleep in the same room as his computer
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00:57:27 <zzo38> Three things you should try to guess: How many pages does CZZT currently have? How many pages will it have when it is complete? Also guess how large the Win32 executable file will be when it is finished?
00:59:16 <oerjan> (hey you didn't say is should make an _educated_ guess)
00:59:37 <pikhq> 0, G*i, 1 millibyte.
01:00:05 <pikhq> Graham's number * sqrt(-1).
01:00:16 <oerjan> that's not a cardinal number, pikhq
01:00:23 <zzo38> Try to make an educated guess, next time. I do not know the answer to second and third question, although the first actual answer is more than 42, and my guess for the second is less than 99999
01:00:29 <pikhq> He never asked for a cardinal.
01:00:35 <pikhq> He asked for a number.
01:00:57 <pikhq> Curses, he did ask for a cardinal.
01:01:04 <pikhq> Okay, fine. The real component of G*i.
01:01:22 <zzo38> The real component of G*i is 0 isn't it?
01:01:27 <Sgeo_> zzo38, I can't make an educated guess
01:01:27 <oerjan> that's not very ... right
01:01:42 <Sgeo_> I can say that it will probably have more than 0 pages, and less thanb.. oh, already done
01:02:27 <zzo38> The problem is the summary of kinds now spans 2 pages, and I want to get it all on 1 page. Does anyone in here know some things about TeX that I can make it on 1 page?
01:03:37 <zzo38> I will tell you the current project size: 67 pages, and 53610 bytes of source codes (all *.w and *.wi files)
01:04:21 <zzo38> And what kind of computer can measure in 1 millibyte? Can we invent a esolang like that?
01:04:34 <ais523> zzo38: have you seen TURKEY BOMB?
01:04:44 <ais523> it doesn't use millibytes, but it does use fractions of a bit
01:04:57 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, I have seen.
01:05:30 <pikhq> I dunno, but having sub-bit addressing would be awesome.
01:06:55 <zzo38> Yes. If someone can figure it out.
01:08:38 <zzo38> Now guess how many staplers I have in my desk drawer.
01:10:14 <zzo38> No, I don't have any prize to give, sorry
01:10:30 <oerjan> you could give him the stapler
01:10:38 <ais523> guess how many staplers are in the drawer in the table in front of me
01:11:06 <zzo38> How can I do if I don't have address? Maybe if I had more than 1 I would send one to you
01:11:13 <oerjan> oh wait you said "staplers", not "staples"
01:11:24 <zzo38> ais523: I guess, you have no staplers, but you do have a staple remover
01:11:40 <zzo38> (Because you already removed the stapler from the drawer)
01:12:08 <ais523> zzo38: I'm not sure if you're right or not
01:12:13 <ais523> this table doesn't actually have a drawer
01:12:24 <ais523> thus evaluating the number of staplers in it is sort-of difficult
01:12:25 <zzo38> ais523: That was my second guess.
01:12:49 * oerjan swats ais523 ------###
01:13:29 <oerjan> haven't seen him today
01:15:01 <zzo38> Now guess, how many ranks my D&D character has in Perform(Harp) skill, and also how many claws my D&D character has at each hand/feet, and in total
01:15:13 <zzo38> And also guess the exact number of XP of my D&D character
01:15:24 <ais523> you play a harp... with claws?
01:15:29 <zzo38> And also of my brother's character
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01:16:08 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, it is slightly difficult but if you put harp on table it can be done more effectively, especially if you have enough ranks in that skill, and if you use both hands.
01:16:31 <zzo38> That means, some things ordinary people require 1 hand, some things might need 2 hands instead, but it can still be done
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01:17:40 <zzo38> (I have proven this by doing various things like this with my own hand but not using all my fingers, to see how many are minimum require for certain things)
01:19:31 <zzo38> After you attempt to answer these questions, look at this http://sprunge.us/hMBS tell me if you know about TeX how to fit the summary of kinds table all on one page?
01:19:42 <zzo38> (Possibly with some on the right?)
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02:26:44 <myndzi> hm, maybe someone here would be able to answer this for me
02:27:05 <myndzi> i was reading about bz2, and i'm a little puzzled as to the point of the runa/runb thing in the run length encoding
02:27:23 <myndzi> specifically, i'm unsure what would make it more effective than some simpler method of encoding the length
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02:37:28 <pikhq> So, that h.264 royalty-free license for certain works is now permanent.
02:37:33 <pikhq> Fuck. We're stuck.
02:37:42 <ais523> myndzi: the encoding is actually just binary
02:37:53 <ais523> modified such that redundant entries like 00001 are impossible
03:16:19 <myndzi> runb place values are multiplied by 2, though
03:16:35 <myndzi> that's the part i don't really understand
03:16:50 <myndzi> i guess it gives you a chance to save a bit or something, but i don't see why it is worth it
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06:56:24 <Sgeo> If there was a solution to the halting problem, what mathematical questions would remain unsolved?
06:56:53 <Sgeo> The Riemann Hypothesis might, if any counterexamples were irrational numbers
06:57:23 <Sgeo> Although I think a result that "Either the Riemann Hypothesis is true, or all counterexamples are irrational" is still interesting somehow
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08:29:19 <olsner> if the halting problem can be solved, doesn't that imply that the goedel stuff would have been disproven as well?
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09:05:46 <Sgeo> Is there any countable infinite named subset of the reals that contains all rational numbers and some irrational numbers?
09:10:42 <fizzie> And the computable numbers, I guess.
09:12:46 <Sgeo> What happens when we say that no computable number falsifies the Riemann hypothesis
09:12:51 <Sgeo> Is that interesting, or boring?
09:14:35 <Sgeo> It's not possible for a non-definable number to be a counterexample to anything, is it?
09:15:55 * Sgeo reads the wikipedia article and mehs
09:18:47 <coppro> the set of all rationals and all rational multiples of pi
09:19:47 <coppro> (or the other ones suggested, but I like my answer since it's easier to count)
09:20:19 <fizzie> It's not "named" in the sense of having a well-known name, is it?
09:20:43 <fizzie> Not that a "named set" is a very well-defined thing.
09:20:56 <Sgeo> I should sleep
09:20:59 <fizzie> (You can always give it a name, after all.)
09:22:10 <coppro> I call it the pitional numbers
09:22:51 <fizzie> The Coppros, often denoted by ℂ℘.
09:23:18 <fizzie> "Pitiful numbers" is a good candidate too.
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12:41:35 <oerjan> 22:56:24 <Sgeo> If there was a solution to the halting problem, what mathematical questions would remain unsolved?
12:41:38 <oerjan> 22:56:53 <Sgeo> The Riemann Hypothesis might, if any counterexamples were irrational numbers
12:42:06 <oerjan> the riemann hypothesis is equivalent to a statement about the distribution of prime numbers
12:42:59 <oerjan> so if you could solve halting problems in a recursive manner, the riemann hypothesis would be solved
12:43:38 <oerjan> hm actually you may not even need the recursion
12:46:17 <oerjan> http://rjlipton.wordpress.com/2009/05/27/arithmetic-hierarchy-and-pnp/ is where i saw the equivalent statement discussed
12:48:02 <oerjan> (and essentially it's an equivalent question, too, because the arithmetic hierarchy can be formulated using halting problems)
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12:50:20 <cheater> who wants to see some ugly code
12:50:28 <cheater> http://pastebin.com/ynf5pZaj
12:50:59 <oerjan> also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arithmetical_hierarchy#Relation_to_Turing_machines
12:51:54 <cheater> oerjan: how do you like my seds
12:53:06 * cheater sits down and smokes a pipe.
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12:58:15 <Vorpal> cheater, how do you smoke a | ?
12:58:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, I can only conclude that you are playing dumb.
12:58:49 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I was making a pun
12:59:14 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, considering the context of shell script and "* cheater sits down and smokes a pipe." I felt it wasn't that far-fetched
13:09:20 <oerjan> you just be _glad_ a certain person isn't here to snark about it
13:10:01 <Vorpal> oerjan, you makes puns like that too
13:11:10 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and why am I not allowed to do it?
13:12:10 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, why does not being oerjan imply that you aren't allowed to make puns?
13:12:26 <oerjan> well of course you're allowed. color blind people are allowed to paint, too </ducks>
13:14:03 <oerjan> _someone_ who tends to pick on everything Vorpal does
13:14:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, the set of people allowed to make puns that bad is {oerjan, DMM}.
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13:18:13 <fizzie> If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's valid HTML.
13:20:30 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: and you call yourself a frog, and ayla... i will not betray my friends!
13:20:36 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct* darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
13:20:54 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
13:21:11 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: mr president, would you be prepared, and that opinion is in line with the treaty. it was indeed a pleasure for me, as a family, if there is no proof of their maturity, their composure and their ability to create a european stock exchange which will generate new jobs.
13:22:51 <fungot> cheater: mr president, the rapporteur and the committee on budgetary control, thanks in particular to welcome and briefly debate last september. the officials of the european union's number one priority and also the honourable member of your group and party. at most, mr president-in-office of the council, i am convinced that cohesion is not just excessive but is in reality a plan for the court of first instance.
13:23:36 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl* ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
13:23:42 <fungot> Selected style: c64 (C64 programming material)
13:23:50 <fungot> cheater: run ( starts at line-number 500) will disable the switching of character memory can be achieved by using this line should only be compared ( or more programs in memory until you had in mind that the interrupt register.
13:23:59 <fizzie> That's a bit boring style, the formatting is badly.
13:24:13 <cheater> it's gonna be help for helping newbies with code
13:24:26 <fungot> cheater: p=192 sets the alarm access bit. the duration above. then jsr chrgot. another color control can set all of the keyboard
13:24:41 <fizzie> fungot: So how about them SID registers, are they read-write or write-only?
13:24:41 <fungot> fizzie: 1) set the corresponding interrupt will occur. the high-pass output. the string: filename) note space here. go back to ascii text of the screen background.
13:24:46 <cheater> fungot: kernel programming
13:24:46 <fungot> cheater: 3. this is used to count much longer intervals. cia 1 56320-56335 in-between commands ( like in multi-color character mode, pairs of pixels instead of using one of the statement cr=peek(55296)and15. this allows a user written machine language
13:24:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Is it just me or is Comments on a Postcard completely broken?
13:25:56 <fizzie> It seems brokened here too.
13:26:46 * oerjan swats Phantom_Hoover -----###
13:27:47 <Phantom_Hoover> ...But they referred to it in today's SRoMG, with every indication that there was something there...
13:27:59 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, SRoMG?
13:28:12 <oerjan> oh that. i don't think that was the same postcard :D
13:28:49 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I just asked what it stands for
13:30:19 <oerjan> square root of minus garfield
13:30:48 * oerjan notes the cat is back in iwc
13:31:05 <Vorpal> oerjan, yeah noticed it too
13:31:27 <Vorpal> oerjan, and it has been pretty obvious for some time that we have been heading for a new paradox.
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13:35:35 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yes that is what I said, "some time" is pretty vague and intentionally so
13:36:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Given that Adam and Jamie blew up the time stream ages ago.
13:37:25 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, when time travel is involved, does your last line really make any sense?
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13:38:35 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, it seems to be a town in US
13:38:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, check the TV Tropes entry for "San Dimas Time".
13:39:13 <oerjan> Vorpal: it's a tvtrope, he said. those are rather creatively named.
13:39:28 <Vorpal> okay, I learnt how to avoid clicking links so...
13:41:14 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, that thing always annoyed me in movies
13:41:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, meh. I get around it by assuming a second time dimension.
13:41:45 <Vorpal> san dimas time that is
13:41:57 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm that works I guess
13:42:17 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what if you somehow manages to travel in that as well?
13:42:25 <Vorpal> that would make one confusing movie
13:42:50 <Phantom_Hoover> I've thought about that, but I'm eating a cake so can't type too quickly.
13:43:04 <Vorpal> of course you could just add a third one
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13:43:39 <Vorpal> but at some point that just gets too silly
13:45:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Hence why I assume that the second time dimension is impossible to travel in.
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13:47:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Or that, when travelled in, has the properties typically associated with more "realistic" time travel.
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13:52:57 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, Would you move in the second time dimension when you are not traveling in the first?
13:54:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Since the only meaningful change in the system comes about when time travel is taking place.
13:56:48 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, this also solves the grand father paradox I think
13:57:19 <Vorpal> since it would be done at a different place in the second timeline
13:59:17 <Vorpal> also solves the similar "had no reason to go back once the change is made"-paradox
14:00:40 <Vorpal> though you could make both still apply by making it so that time travellers are "rebased" (in the DVCS sense) to the current time line when traveling. Though, not sure if it solves the primary problem any longer then
14:29:22 <fizzie> Heh, "concolic"; what an awesome new word-coinage. (It's from "concrete" and "symbolic", in the context of automated exhaustive testing; for some reason there was a random theory guy included in the summer student seminar session which otherwise was mostly about speech stuff.)
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14:37:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, if I was oerjan I would make a pun about symbolic cement here.
14:42:38 <fizzie> Unfortunately, you are not, and are therefore contractually prohibited from making such a pun.
14:42:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, I didn't sign anything though
14:43:07 <fizzie> Nowadays you can get into a contract simply by sneezing in the wrong place.
14:44:05 <Vorpal> I get a nagging feeling that was a reference to something that I don't quite remember
14:46:06 <fizzie> The sneezing part wasn't a specific reference to anything, but there has certainly been some nonsense about a contract being established in ridiculous ways. Can't remember a specific example offhand.
14:46:41 <Vorpal> well one of the follow up books rather
14:47:09 <Vorpal> watching movie about kriket (sp?)
14:48:37 <fizzie> There's the Jatravartids of Viltvodle VI, who believe the Universe was sneezed out of the nose of the Great Green Arkleseizure, and who fear the Coming of the Great White Handkerchief.
14:48:44 <fizzie> That's about the only sneezing-related thing I recall.
14:50:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, no I meant the contract part
14:51:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, I definitely think there is an example of that in HHGTG
14:51:19 <fizzie> I was thinking of real-life things there, but I wouldn't rule out related bits in the Book.
14:52:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, out of curiosity, what was the nationality of "Jatravartid of Viltvodle VI"
14:53:28 <fizzie> What do you mean, nationality? They're "the Jatravartid people of Viltvodle VI", no more is told to us.
14:53:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, sure that is "real-life"+
14:54:25 <fizzie> Gnaah, no, I mean I was thinking of real-life things w.r.t. the contract thing.
14:54:49 <fizzie> Something EULA- or maybe website-terms-of-service-related, I think.
14:54:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, I don't remember "Jatravartids of Viltvodle VI" from hhgtg though the name *sounds* like it could be from there
14:55:14 <fizzie> They're not very prominently featured.
14:55:47 <fizzie> Only in two paragraphs of the introduction of The Restaurant at the End of the Universe.
14:56:29 <fizzie> "The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. Many races believe that it was created by some sort of God, though the Jatravartid --"
14:57:11 <fizzie> Then it moves on from the Great Green Arkleseizure theory to other attempts of finding the Answer (and the Question).
14:58:11 <fizzie> I used "Arkleseizure" as the Bluetooth name of the N-Gage.
15:06:32 <fizzie> It was back when I had a Guide-inspired naming scheme overall.
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15:25:34 <cheater> i would just like to inform you that there is so much ice in my glass that it sticks like 2 cm out
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15:31:21 <cheater> fizzie: in greece you can become legally married by going around a table once
15:31:53 <Slereah> What if there's a goat on said table?
15:38:22 <cheater> you go around the table with the woman
15:38:27 <cheater> so you'd have to lead a goat around a table
15:38:35 <cheater> i'm afraid goats are more stubborn than to allow that
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21:08:42 <cpressey> though I've never actually played it
21:09:26 <fizzie> Good old (emphasis on old now) Microsoft Space Simulator?-)
21:09:33 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: That's possible
21:09:33 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, incidentally, I've come to a conclusion regarding the monad design pattern.
21:10:15 <Phantom_Hoover> It's effectively the same as assigning a design pattern to if constructs.
21:12:05 <fizzie> There's also that freeware thing, what'sitcalled, Orbiter? Don't know anything 'bout it.
21:12:14 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Interesting. I would say such design patterns do exist, they're just very simple and might be better called "implementation patterns". I came to a, well, different thought. It seems to me that there ought to be any number of very bizarre monads one could devise.
21:13:02 <fizzie> It might well be. Well, Space Simulator will run in DOS too.
21:18:12 <Phantom_Hoover> That's why it's absurd to confine them to a single design pattern.
21:18:45 <cpressey> That's also why we need form an Esoteric Task Force for Stupid Monad Tricks.
21:19:36 <ais523> I can't think of any really silly monads, though
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21:19:52 <ais523> well, Feather probably forms a monad, but only because everything like that does
21:20:25 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: it's difficult...
21:20:35 <ais523> some day I may understand it myself
21:20:39 <ais523> and then I'll be able to explain it
21:20:51 <ais523> general concept is that of retroactive changes as the main form of doing anything
21:21:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Right, so assigning a variable retroactively changes it etc.?
21:21:26 <ais523> well, "assign" isn't the right word, really
21:23:30 <ais523> the basic operation is retroactively-become, but it tends to lead to infinite loops unless guarded very carefully
21:27:00 <ais523> because a retroactive change rewinds time to when the thing happened, then changes the state to make the change
21:27:02 <ais523> and then runs from there
21:27:16 <ais523> so you have to retroactively change things such that the change never happens, in order to avoid a loop
21:27:21 <ais523> sort-of the opposite of how time travel normally works
21:27:50 <cpressey> I would imagine, if the contents of the variable X ever determines whether "X retroactively-becomes ..." is executed, a loop occurs, or rather, you have to resolve some kind of nasty fixed point thing.
21:28:33 <cpressey> Nasty because, uh, the condition I stated is generally undecidable.
21:28:44 <ais523> cpressey: nah, if there's any issue at all, you just get an infinite loop
21:29:04 <ais523> if you set a variable to its current value with primitives, you /always/ get an infinite loop
21:29:09 <Phantom_Hoover> You would presumably need to code if (¬changed) retbecom
21:29:23 <ais523> the issue is then to determine the value of changed
21:29:35 <ais523> this is why things are done in a vaguely OO style
21:29:43 <ais523> "sane" retroactive changes are the addition of a method
21:29:52 <ais523> and then you can check to see if the method exists or not first
21:29:57 <cpressey> ais523: Perhaps I am jumping ahead to trying to statically analyze this beast. Please excuse me.
21:30:15 <ais523> cpressey: if you figure out how Feather works, please let me know
21:30:34 <ais523> atm I'm trying to get started
21:30:47 <ais523> you see, some of the other things that can retroactively change are the rules of the language itself
21:31:07 <ais523> there's no conceputal problem here, but I'm having problems actually implementing it
21:31:16 <ais523> because everything is defined in terms of everything else
21:31:41 <ais523> it's a similar task to trying to write a Smalltalk VM in something other than Smalltalk
21:31:49 <ais523> which must have been accomplished once, I suppose
21:31:56 <ais523> but which is kind-of difficult
21:32:33 <ais523> hmm... Feather could be a great tool to wave at Lisp advocates who claim every other lang's just a special case of theirs
21:34:20 <ais523> it's how I plan to implement it, yes
21:34:23 <ais523> it seems the obvious way
21:36:27 -!- whtspc has joined.
21:36:32 <ais523> I was planning to use a higher-level lang that does CPS for me
21:36:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Would it be possible to statically analyse the source to work out exactly which continuations you need?
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21:37:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Provided you only allow retbecomes to predefined points.
21:38:02 <ais523> statically analysing Feather is like trying to statically analyse something like SMITH
21:38:38 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, s/statically analyse/remember where the damn retbecomes pointed/
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21:47:25 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, OK, so how is your implementation stuff at the moment?
21:47:49 <ais523> I've failed twice so far
21:47:51 <ais523> I may try again some time
21:49:25 <ais523> ugh, it's hard to explain
21:51:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Offhand, I would go for the interpreter calling a continuation with a function that transforms the environment appropriately.
21:53:58 <Phantom_Hoover> But you've probably exploded your brain more than me over thiss.
21:56:21 <ais523> the difficulty is that the interpreter must be written in Feather, in case you retroactively modify the interpreter that the interpreter was written in to make it dump source code
21:56:40 <ais523> strangely, the turtles-all-the-way-down regress this apparently causes is not the hardest-to-resolve part of things
21:58:15 -!- iGO has joined.
21:58:44 <Sgeo> Wait, Feather is implementable?
21:58:51 <Sgeo> What happens when I retroactively print something?
22:02:39 <ais523> Sgeo: I/O is another issue
22:02:52 <ais523> at any point in the execution, though, you can determine what the program has outputted so far
22:03:00 <ais523> so I suppose it's just a case of erasing output from the screen when you backtrack
22:03:55 <Sgeo> Will it be possible to build more structured time control structures than whatever the primitive is? Similar to building structured flow control from gotos or continuations?
22:04:09 <Sgeo> What high-level structures would make sense?
22:04:42 <ais523> there certainly are saner primitives possible
22:05:06 <cpressey> ais523: The way you've descibed it, Feather sounds trivially implementable
22:05:18 <ais523> for instance, you could retroactively change a value into a function that acts exactly like that value until the point of the retroactive assignment, and then starts acting like a different value
22:05:22 <ais523> that's close to traditional assignment
22:05:23 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, the self-modification of the interpreter, though.
22:05:34 <ais523> cpressey: the issue is the object-oriented structure
22:05:57 <Sgeo> Is the implementation coming before or after the spec?
22:06:11 <ais523> even something really simple like comparing two atoms for equality (where "atom" = "object whose only purpose is to be compared to other atoms for equality") leads to an infinite regress with obvious implementations
22:06:21 <ais523> as they send each other messages which are other atoms
22:06:27 <ais523> Sgeo: being codeveloped
22:06:39 <cpressey> OK, I was behind. Just got back to my desk.
22:06:47 <cpressey> Some subset of Feather is trivially implementable.
22:06:57 <ais523> given that lambda calculus is a subset of Feather
22:07:05 <ais523> (easy way to make it TC, among other things)
22:07:12 <cpressey> Well, some subset with retroactive something.
22:07:22 <cpressey> Every time you change something, restart the program, with that change.
22:07:54 <ais523> I foresee two major problems; getting started (the one I'm getting hung up on), and writing a standard library that's actually useful
22:09:08 <ais523> I think I can work around it by having every object have a method that states whether it's a particular atom or not
22:09:52 <ais523> that is, one particular special atom that's treated differently in order to break the infinite dependency loop
22:10:27 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: what do you have against OO?
22:10:31 <ais523> besides, we need more OO esolangs
22:10:41 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, so, you'd rather I not like Smalltalk?
22:10:48 <ais523> and that sort of structure is needed in Feather to not degenerate
22:10:58 <ais523> Sgeo: Smalltalk is the main inspiration for Feather, actually
22:11:16 <ais523> I was thinking about "why do we need objects separate from classes"
22:12:06 <ais523> and the reason is because of inheritance; you want to modify methods in a class and all its subclasses, but objects shouldn't work like that
22:12:23 <ais523> and then I noticed that the problem doesn't exist if you modify a prototype object before any subclassing or object creation is used
22:12:26 <ais523> and the idea snowballed from there
22:16:41 <Vorpal> hm local root exploit on <2.6.36-rc1
22:16:54 <Vorpal> CVE not yet published but googling it turns up details
22:17:02 <Vorpal> the pre-reserved number that is
22:17:29 -!- cheater99 has joined.
22:17:31 <cpressey> ais523: I'm not sure I see that problem. "You want to modify methods"?
22:17:49 <ais523> cpressey: it isn't quite that simple
22:17:57 <cpressey> Delegation-based OO doesn't seem to have a problem with that... assuming it's what I think it is, which I guess it isn't
22:18:01 <ais523> I can't remember the details any more
22:18:11 <ais523> cpressey: delegation is an alternative solution to the same problem
22:18:21 <cpressey> ais523: ah, that might shed light on it
22:18:40 <Vorpal> ais523, not going to test it though, the effects seems pretty severe if it only works partly (SLUB state completely fucked up)
22:18:41 <ais523> local root exploits tend to be irrelevant on your own personal computer, though
22:20:03 <Sgeo> They are relevant for Normish though, I think
22:20:18 <Vorpal> ais523, well a patch is released, I seem to have a patched version according to numbers
22:20:28 -!- tombom_ has joined.
22:20:30 <Vorpal> got that upgrade yesterday iirc
22:20:40 <ais523> and occasionally when you use user accounts for sandboxing
22:20:47 <Vorpal> ais523, so for details google for CVE-2010-2959
22:20:56 <ais523> what makes you assume I want details?
22:21:09 <Vorpal> ais523, why wouldn't you
22:21:24 <ais523> because it's not a subject I particularly care about?
22:21:44 <ais523> local root exploits are vaguely interesting, but I'm not in the sort of sysadmin where it would be important to care
22:21:53 <ais523> *sort of sysadmin position
22:22:16 <ais523> and the details of a /specific/ local root exploit are merely of academic interest, unless you plan to patch or exploit it
22:24:34 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
22:24:41 <ais523> does anyone here know how to do a while loop in TCL?
22:24:46 -!- iGO has quit.
22:24:59 -!- iGO has joined.
22:25:16 <Vorpal> ais523, you could implement it with a for loop (not a foreach loop though)
22:25:30 <ais523> Vorpal: I don't know how to do those either
22:25:34 <ais523> I don't know TCL syntax
22:25:41 <Sgeo> TCL isn't an esolang?
22:25:41 <ais523> I'm asking in case there's someone here who does
22:25:45 <Vorpal> ais523, ah maybe learnt that before starting coding in tcl?
22:25:48 <ais523> it used to be very popular
22:25:51 <Vorpal> ais523, pikhq is a tcl fan iirc
22:26:04 <ais523> well, I want to do something in TCL, and don't know hoe
22:26:14 <Vorpal> ais523, try to catch him then
22:26:17 <ais523> thus, I'm asking on the basis that quite possibly there's someone here who /does/ know how
22:26:35 <Vorpal> I was just commenting that in general while loop can be implemented in terms of a for loop
22:27:27 <pikhq> I'm reasonably proficient in Tcl.
22:27:35 <ais523> what's the easiest way to write an infinite loop?
22:28:14 <pikhq> BTW, Tcl's syntax & semantics are shockingly simple.
22:28:20 <pikhq> There. Whole thing.
22:28:35 <ais523> I don't actually have TCL installed
22:28:40 <ais523> it's sort-of amazing that programs run at all, given that
22:29:08 <pikhq> http://www.tcl.tk/man/tcl8.5/TclCmd/Tcl.htm
22:30:33 <ais523> hmm, it seems to use the Underload approach to blocks
22:31:41 <cpressey> ais523: By talking about Feather and infinite loops in Tcl, you seem to have given me an idea for yet another stupid language.
22:32:02 <ais523> btw, I apologise for taking several minutes to recall the name of SMETANA recently
22:32:44 <ais523> hmm, now I'm wondering if relative Smetana would be TC
22:32:53 <ais523> "Swap the step after this one with the step 5 steps before this one."
22:32:59 <ais523> "Go to the step 8 steps after this one."
22:36:09 <cpressey> ais523: Well. lament proved it is FSA-complete, meaning that inifnite SMETANA programs, with a suitable inital pattern, should be CA-complete. I think.
22:36:09 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64* ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
22:36:32 <ais523> cpressey: yes, and I know what a bad definitional situation that is from personal experience
22:36:56 <cpressey> ais523: Yes and you have my condolences.
22:37:21 <Sgeo> Wait, FSA-complete isn't a fungot invention?
22:37:22 <fungot> Sgeo: the interrupt driven keyboard-scanning routine jumps through a modem and a third, in order ( see the effect of having their normal effect on it. the
22:37:28 <ais523> aargh, I don't want to go through this again
22:37:43 <ais523> but basically, "turing-complete" for infinite starting conditions is badly designed
22:37:53 <ais523> and I ended up in a heated email debate about the definition with Vaughan Pratt ages ago
22:38:16 <ais523> it ended abruptly when the list moderator went on holiday, and never restarted
22:38:35 <ais523> one of the best-timed holidays ever
22:38:40 <ais523> there isn't really more to say
22:40:06 * Sgeo awkwardly holds his computer
22:41:39 <Sgeo> Maybe I shouldnt attemt to leave eardrops in and use the computer at the same time
22:45:49 <Sgeo> I have to leave my head tilted for s few min
22:46:30 <ais523> rotate your screen by 30 degrees
22:46:59 <Sgeo> I had the whole computer rotated 90
22:47:05 <Sgeo> But I'm done now, so
22:48:49 -!- Killerkid has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:52:42 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: ciout 60893, 65448 ( decimal). the following
22:52:52 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64* ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
22:52:59 <fungot> Selected style: ff7 (Full script of the game Final Fantasy VII)
22:53:14 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: humans only look at the inn? and what she meant. i wouldn't know because i don't know either, man.
23:01:08 -!- Killerkid has joined.
23:04:31 -!- Gregor has joined.
23:04:35 <Gregor> Unexpected move = AWESOME FUN TIMES
23:04:46 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:05:39 <Gregor> I came home to find my electricity had shorted and they needed to tear apart my walls to find out why.
23:05:56 <Gregor> And they said "Uhhh, how about we put you in this much bigger apartment for the same price?"
23:06:00 <Gregor> And I said "... oh fine."
23:06:43 * ais523 continues to wonder wtf expect programs (written in TCL) run, given that TCL isn't installed
23:07:01 <ais523> Gregor: I take it you rent your apartment?
23:07:11 <Gregor> If I didn't, it wouldn't be an apartment.
23:08:34 <Gregor> Well, arguably. Is condominium a subclass of apartment, or distinct?
23:09:36 <Sgeo> My dad owns an apartment...
23:11:40 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:12:25 <oerjan> Sgeo: did you see my comment about the riemann hypothesis in the logs?
23:12:36 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Presumably a condo.
23:12:47 <Phantom_Hoover> So a TwoDucks interpreter can solve the Reimann Hypothesis?
23:13:06 <Sgeo> Ok, see it now
23:13:16 <oerjan> basically there is a known statement about natural number sums which it is equivalent too, and which can be rephrased as a halting problem
23:13:29 <oerjan> (it's in that lipton blog article)
23:13:55 <oerjan> (not the halting problem rephrasing, but that's pretty obvious)
23:14:53 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: presumably? at least banana scheme and brainhype can, using only one level up
23:15:36 <oerjan> (their computation models are pretty much equivalent to the arithmetic hierarchy, iiuc)
23:18:14 -!- alise has joined.
23:18:54 <alise> Bearded apostrophe--
23:19:21 <alise> --and he tumbles out of the unit, landing headfirst on something, knowing not what.
23:20:17 <oerjan> so what's the unicode character for bearded apostrophe?
23:20:25 -!- derdon has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
23:21:02 -!- augur has joined.
23:23:04 <Sgeo> Worship Xom! Be Xom's plaything!
23:23:57 <Sgeo> You're a BORING thign
23:25:32 <cpressey> ais523: I would guess tcl is statically linked into expect?
23:27:20 <alise> cpressey: I think so.
23:27:46 <alise> So -- barring further incident, it appears that the unit have released me; like from a cannon, not a door.
23:27:54 <Sgeo> alise, hurray!
23:28:30 <Sgeo> An insane god. Cares not for worshippers, but to be entertained
23:28:39 <alise> Yes. Of course the cannon is catapulting me on a collision course with the nation of Standardised Schools Teaching Standardised Curricula.
23:28:58 <alise> Such is (my) life.
23:29:37 <Sgeo> So you'll have to go to school?
23:30:20 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
23:31:13 <alise> If you wish to speak in "normal English" (pshaw), yes; probably the latest in a long stream of Not Caring About The Law-related incidents perpetrated by the unit, but there you go.
23:31:41 <alise> Actually they're sending me to some section of it, not the main bit; you know, because I'm all Sensitive and Special Needs now.
23:33:27 <ais523> cpressey: seems likelyh
23:33:31 <ais523> alise: glad you're here
23:33:34 <ais523> I was worried about you
23:34:08 <alise> ais523: Because I wasn't here for a day or two?
23:34:19 <ais523> yes, when I'd have expected you to be
23:34:30 <ais523> it's not so much the absence as the inconsistency
23:34:32 <alise> Yeah; long story and all that.
23:34:40 -!- cheater99 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:35:12 <alise> Anyone use Epiphany? It's being stupid
23:35:44 <ais523> (I use a locked-down Firefox, and a less locked-down Epiphany)
23:36:30 <alise> ais523: I don't suppose you know how to tell it to use certain Xft settings? It appears that GNOME's settings don't affect the WebKit renderer. I may be forced to create an /etc/fonts/local.conf.
23:36:33 <Sgeo> Random Internet disconnect!
23:36:48 <alise> (I'm trying out using no hinting whatsoever. I'm so totally RADICAL.)
23:36:51 <ais523> alise: oh, I've never tried to customise it beyond hiding and showing toolbars
23:37:06 <ais523> I'm even less like AnMaster than you are in that respect
23:37:11 <alise> ais523: on that note, why doesn't %{width=NUMCHARS} at the end of a bookmark URL that you've put as an input box toolbar thing work?
23:37:14 <alise> the manual says it should
23:37:27 <alise> it isn't really customising Epiphany, just getting Epiphany to listen to my font settings
23:37:34 <ais523> I suppose years of using whatever computer happens to be available is a hard habit to break
23:37:48 <ais523> you get used to default settings for a wide range of systems and programs
23:38:02 <alise> also, can you assign a shortcut key to those bookmarks? all I want is a google search box :P
23:38:38 <ais523> what's to stop you memorising URLs, though?
23:38:49 <ais523> actually doing a search is rather unreliable...
23:39:16 <alise> Have you misinterpreted me, or is this the weirdest way of expressing the opinion "I don't like search" ever?
23:39:18 <ais523> well, normally when I want to visit a website, I just go there directly
23:39:30 <alise> Yes ... search is generally used when you don't know what website you wish to visit.
23:39:44 <cpressey> Or when the site you wish to visit, is a search engine.
23:39:49 <ais523> why would you visit a website without knowing it was there?
23:40:08 <ais523> you'd have no idea how accurate it was
23:40:26 <alise> ais523: I know you're playing dumb to prove a point, but let's just say we've already covered your opinion on search in depth and I have, like everyone else, disregarded it as one to adopt myself?
23:40:27 <cpressey> That process used to be called "surfing the net"...
23:40:47 <oerjan> 14:32:44 <ais523> hmm, now I'm wondering if relative Smetana would be TC
23:40:47 <oerjan> 14:32:53 <ais523> "Swap the step after this one with the step 5 steps before this one."
23:40:47 <ais523> it never seems to lead to useful results, though
23:40:56 <cpressey> Now you receive links from your friends on Facewank.
23:41:18 <cpressey> I am so totally caught in 1996.
23:41:27 <ais523> hmm, I do occasionally use Google to look up backlinks for a website
23:41:31 <ais523> to see what it is before visiting it
23:41:33 <alise> Don't say Facebook, we'll get /another/ ais523 rant!
23:41:38 <alise> They're rare but usually deadly.
23:41:42 <oerjan> ais523: almost certainly i think, i already essentially established smetana with sort-of-infinite-setup is TC
23:41:53 <ais523> this would be a different situation, though
23:41:54 * Sgeo winces in preparation
23:42:10 <oerjan> (using k*n+l patterns for labels)
23:42:50 <oerjan> (it's somewhere in the old esoteric mailing list archive as Smetana+1)
23:43:21 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: why was I even on there in the first place?
23:43:42 <oerjan> ais523: but i guess that would require you to ... search ... for it *MWAHAHAHA*
23:44:11 <ais523> if I say I don't use Facebook for the same reason Knuth doesn't use email, would that be considered a rant?
23:44:44 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: he's fairly sane, just a lunati
23:44:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Knuth doesn't use email to stop the irritating hordes descending, right?
23:45:00 <ais523> (ESR introduced me to Knuth's secretary via email, btw)
23:45:17 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: well, I tend to avoid all guaranteed instant methods of communication
23:45:29 -!- cpressey has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:45:30 <ais523> anyone who wants to communicate with me has to put up with a potentially random time delay
23:45:33 <alise> *guaranteed instant*
23:45:44 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I'm not always online
23:46:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, but you can just avoid emails from people you don't like...
23:46:07 <ais523> I don't see why people tolerate mobile phones at all?
23:46:22 <ais523> although more often I avoid them based on subject matter rather than author
23:46:45 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: But it is not as legible at low DPIs as Bitstream Charter!
23:46:49 <Sgeo> You could disable Facebook Chat
23:47:06 <ais523> Sgeo: could you also disable all the other features of Facebook?
23:47:12 <alise> oh, come on, even /I/ think Facebook is an abomination
23:47:15 <ais523> (I imagine Facebook Chat requires Flash or at least JS, anyway)
23:47:20 <Sgeo> How is anything but Facebook Chat guaranteed instant?
23:47:22 <alise> facebook requires JS, more or less
23:47:36 <alise> Sgeo: the rest of Facebook is parasitic, anti-social bullshit that nobody should care about or listen to.
23:47:56 <ais523> Sgeo: mobile phones are the usual case
23:48:06 <ais523> there's a lot of social pressure for people with a mobile to leave it on always, and answer it whenever called
23:48:08 <Sgeo> I meant, any part of Facebook
23:48:22 <ais523> Sgeo: it isn't, it's obnoxious for other reasons
23:48:56 <ais523> rgrn filling up with Fishville spam is obnoxious enough
23:49:02 <ais523> although that isn't really Facebook's fault
23:49:19 -!- relet has left (?).
23:49:37 <ais523> hmm, I've suddenly been inspired to read Facebook's ToS
23:49:38 <oerjan> `addquote * Sgeo awkwardly holds his computer <Sgeo> Maybe I shouldnt attemt to leave eardrops in and use the computer at the same time <Sgeo> I have to leave my head tilted for s few min
23:50:11 <Sgeo> Wha? Why would a usenet group and Facebook stuff be connected?
23:50:29 <alise> spammers and usenet are always connected
23:50:30 <ais523> hmm, section 1 says "Your privacy is very important to us."
23:50:46 <ais523> if I agreed to that agreement, then I'd be agreeing that Facebook thinks my privacy is very important to them
23:50:55 <alise> Which would be a lie.
23:50:58 * oerjan swats HackEgo -----###
23:51:04 <alise> You cannot legally agree to it unless you're deluded!
23:51:06 <ais523> alise: exactly, thus I can't agree to the agreement
23:51:19 <alise> ais523: you can, it'd just be illegal
23:51:20 <ais523> (actually, I can; EULAs and website TOSes are unenforceable in the UK)
23:51:22 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:51:27 <alise> well, assuming that TOSes worked
23:51:31 <alise> which they of course don't
23:51:37 <ais523> they were ruled unenforceable by the Office of Fair Trading on the basis that nobody reads them anyway
23:51:47 <ais523> and they're designed to not be read in many cases
23:52:09 <ais523> and thus, the "I Agree" button or whatever isn't legally binding because nobody can seriously believe you're telling the truth
23:52:14 <ais523> I /love/ this line of reasoning
23:52:37 <alise> In which my bug is fixed by the process of "wait two years, note that it doesn't happen any more": bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=21156
23:53:02 <ais523> the last sentence of 2.1 in Facebook's TOS is incredible, btw
23:53:13 <ais523> especially the bit just before the comma
23:53:44 <ais523> For content that is covered by intellectual property rights, like photos and videos ("IP content"), you specifically give us the following permission, subject to your privacy and application settings: you grant us a non-exclusive, transferable, sub-licensable, royalty-free, worldwide license to use any IP content that you post on or in connection with Facebook ("IP License"). This IP License ends when you delete your IP content or your account unless
23:53:45 <ais523> your content has been shared with others, and they have not deleted it.
23:54:26 <Sgeo> Remind me not to put my proprietary source code on Facebook
23:54:32 <alise> "If you post something, we can do anything with it."
23:54:38 <alise> Sgeo: (1) why do you have proprietary source code?
23:54:44 <alise> (2) why the hell would you let it anywhere near Facebook?
23:54:44 <ais523> the start of 2.2 is funny for a different reason: "When you delete IP content, it is deleted in a manner similar to emptying the recycle bin on a computer."
23:54:46 <Sgeo> Is it legal to post GPLed code on Facebook then?
23:54:55 <ais523> only if you own the copyright, I think
23:55:22 <ais523> because the GPL adds required limitations on sublicensing, and the Facebook license there doesn't contain them
23:55:26 <alise> ais523: heh, I'm going to go and bring my recycling bin inside then tip it onto my computer
23:55:32 <Sgeo> alise, because I feel like making a bit of money in Second Life?
23:55:34 <alise> thus giving me a visual analogy to explain how deleting content on Facebook works
23:55:38 <ais523> in fact, you can't even post someone else's BSD3 (or maybe even BSD2?) code on Facebook
23:56:00 <alise> ais523: BSD2 === BSD3 in all sane countries
23:56:05 <oerjan> <ais523> they were ruled unenforceable by the Office of Fair Trading on the basis that nobody reads them anyway <-- wait someone actually used sanity to interpret law?
23:56:07 <Sgeo> What's the difference?
23:56:09 <alise> (it's just a don't-use-my-name-if-I-don't-let-you clause)
23:56:18 <alise> (which is very redundant)
23:56:27 <alise> indeed, it even applies in almost all insane ones
23:56:33 <ais523> I always interpret 3 as a "this license is not a license to use my name in advertising"
23:56:36 <alise> and the places were it doesn't don't have internet :P
23:56:50 <ais523> so basically all it does is to give you an "I explicitly didn't say that..." defence if someone tries
23:56:50 <Sgeo> Noone should ever use sanity to interpret nomic law
23:57:20 <ais523> the third clause is worthwhile, because if the situation ever comes up, it makes life a bit easier for your lawyers
23:57:37 <alise> does anyone know if KDE is any good these days?
23:57:47 <ais523> alise: I haven't tried it for a while
23:57:55 <alise> it's on to 4.5 by now
23:57:58 <ais523> KDE4 has become rather more stable with each version
23:58:05 <alise> apparently Konqueror is better
23:58:12 <alise> which I can't really believe
23:58:44 <ais523> 3.12 "You will not facilitate or encourage any violations of this Statement."
23:58:54 <ais523> alise: well, it's easier to imagine that Konqueror is better now than it used to be
23:59:03 <ais523> now, if only that didn't have a capital S, it would be truly great
00:00:23 <ais523> hmm, what happened to the "I have a contract written several years ago that says I own most of Facebook" case?
00:01:07 <ais523> let's see... back when the current owner of Facebook was writing the application originally (in the days when it was thefacebook.com)
00:01:17 <ais523> he was being funded by someone who wanted the website made
00:01:33 <ais523> and the terms of the loan gave him a certain percentage of ownership in the website for every day it was late
00:01:42 <ais523> and he was rather late
00:02:01 * ais523 searches Slashdot for the story
00:02:26 <oerjan> i vaguely recall seeing a headline that it was bullshit
00:03:23 <ais523> http://news.slashdot.org/story/10/07/13/146207/Man-Claims-84-of-Facebook-Gets-Order-Blocking-Assets
00:03:31 <ais523> as usual, the comments > the summary
00:04:11 <ais523> "Under Paragraph 3 of the contract, the Seller and Purchaser agreed that for each day after January 1, 2004, the Purchaser would acquire an additional 1% interest in the business, per day, until the website was completed ... Upon information and belief, the website, thefacebook.com, was completed and operational on February 4th, 2004."
00:05:33 <Sgeo> ais523, I dare you to facilitate a violation of the statement telling you not to facilitate or encourage any violations of the statement
00:05:45 <ais523> he got another 50% due to a different part of the contract
00:06:02 <Sgeo> Actually, you kind of did, merely by virtue of being here
00:06:13 <Sgeo> You facilitated my violation!
00:06:19 <ais523> good thing I don't have a Facebook account then
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00:07:10 <Sgeo> alise, want to watch me suffer at Xom's hands?
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00:08:03 <ais523> ooh, the section 2 license that they can do anything with your stuff?
00:08:14 <ais523> apparently, that's only limited to "in connection with Facebook" if you happen to be German
00:08:40 <ais523> also, 17.1 and 17.2 are defined in terms of each other
00:09:07 <alise> ais523: German, or residing in Germany?
00:09:22 <ais523> German, according to the contract
00:09:29 <ais523> hmm, so if you're a German American, or whatever
00:09:40 <ais523> then the thing is still under the jurisdiction of German courts
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00:09:48 <ais523> assuming it's enforceable at all, and it probably isn't
00:10:58 <ais523> also, it contradicts itself
00:11:05 <ais523> stating that any amendment must be signed by them
00:11:13 <ais523> yet it's been amended, and hasn't actually been signed
00:11:41 <ais523> heh, I love the provision for democracy
00:12:20 <ais523> they can change the agreement, but it can be overriden by a vote - but the quorum is 30% of all Facebook users
00:12:26 <ais523> what's the chance that /that/ quorum will ever be reached?
00:12:51 <ais523> also, "We can make changes for legal or administrative reasons, or to correct an inaccurate statement, upon notice without opportunity to comment."
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00:43:21 <alise> "Country: Space" -- film infobox on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apogee_of_Fear
00:45:32 <Sgeo> It's not acceptable to sit in and just observe a course you haven't payed for, is it?
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00:51:12 <alise> Sgeo: I'd ... assume not ...
00:59:18 <olsner> I'd assume it was acceptable
00:59:25 <olsner> paying for it is silly
00:59:55 * olsner shouldn't have gotten the burger with pepper on it
01:00:18 <olsner> (it delays my sleep by taking more time to eat)
01:05:28 <alise> olsner: this is america their universities are weird
01:05:38 <alise> who knows what their etiquette is
01:07:16 <olsner> alise: yeah, I dunno, it's probably silly
01:10:41 <olsner> ("yeah" there was a response to the first line, the rest applies as a response to the statement about etiquette)
01:11:20 <Sgeo> All I know is that comex retweeted some thing about some freshman sitting in on a graduate course
01:13:34 <alise> Sgeo: you only read comex's tweets because he's internet famous :)
01:14:03 <Sgeo> comex's tweets are how I found out he's internet famous
01:14:21 <olsner> who's the internet and why is he famous?
01:15:42 <alise> olsner: I am totally confused by your question.
01:16:22 <olsner> alise: the point did not escape you! I am delighted
01:16:47 <alise> THE ESCAPING of the POINT
01:16:59 <alise> a novel by O.L.S. Ner
01:17:22 <olsner> Mr Ner, how did it come to be? the escaping?
01:17:44 <olsner> well, at first it wasn't... then (at a later point, this was) it was
01:18:23 <olsner> yes, I think that may be the whole of it
01:19:32 <alise> As Tab sat bored in orbit, a beep sounded. A transmission. He let it through, and crackled sound streamed out of the speakers. "There isn't much--" the sound cut out for a second -- "--I need--has escaped--I repeat:--the point has--" The static built up to a point, and the transmission ended. Tab opened a channel to the base on Earth. "Command," he said, "I think we may have a problem."
01:19:46 <alise> This could totally work.
01:20:02 <alise> olsner: all we need to do is blend your lines and my lines
01:20:07 <alise> and we will have the greatest bad novel of all time
01:20:37 <olsner> it would be bad, but it would be the greatest of the bads - the least bad if you might
01:20:56 <nooga> comex? internet famous?
01:21:15 <alise> olsner: it would be an EFFORTLESS BLENDING OF GENRES, that of the English, scholarly professor Mr. Ner, and the space-faring, risk-taking Captain Tab.
01:21:23 <alise> nooga: yeah; he's behind the latest iPhone jailbreak that's all the rage.
01:21:27 <alise> jailbreakme.com and all that.
01:21:40 <olsner> Mr Ner and Captain Tab - yes this does fill me with confidence
01:22:06 <nooga> i couldn't tell that from his appearances on the #
01:22:38 <Sgeo> He appeared in a cloud; he appeared in a hallway
01:22:46 <alise> olsner: at the start of the novel, it's two separate narratives, Mr. Ner and Captain Nab changing each chapter, but then they CONVERGE.
01:22:48 <alise> how literary is that?
01:23:14 <olsner> well, being a novel I would say TOTALLY literary
01:23:39 <alise> olsner: we should also have flashback chapters
01:23:45 <alise> like to Mr. Ner's formative moments as a child prodigy
01:23:49 <alise> and Captain Nab's troubled childhood
01:24:43 <oerjan> the (very late) reveal of exactly _what_ has escaped will of course be horribly cliched
01:24:58 <alise> nonono, it is never revealed
01:25:03 <alise> it is merely the Point
01:25:15 <olsner> I think we already covered what escaped, it is the point that did
01:25:23 <oerjan> oh. i was thinking the opposite.
01:25:26 <alise> thus allowing us to demonstrate, in a parodic yet sincere fashion, what happens to humans in the face of the unknown, and the tropes we all must ultimately succumb to
01:25:34 <olsner> "but what's the point!?" you may ask
01:25:37 <alise> of course, the sequel reveals what the Point is immediately.
01:25:42 <oerjan> (as in, it would be something singularly underwhelming)
01:25:43 <olsner> well... that shall eventually be apparent
01:26:03 <oerjan> an underwhelming singularity, that's the point
01:26:40 * olsner suspects oerjan to be overwhelmingly underwhelmed
01:27:12 <alise> olsner: full names: Oliver Lance Sterling Ner and Jack Tab
01:27:35 <olsner> ah, "Lance" is a pretty good name, well done
01:27:54 <oerjan> it's pretty good, but not sterling
01:28:03 <nooga> Oswald Eric Robertson Jan ?
01:28:18 <alise> nooga: yes, he's the Prime Minister
01:28:23 <olsner> indeed only sterling is sterling
01:29:00 <alise> nooga: although let's just go with Oswald Robertson Jan and leave the E out, otherwise we'll have to come with a hideous explanation for the proliferation of middle names
01:29:13 <alise> it's easy enough to just brush away in the case of Oliver, since he's all posh-like :p
01:29:26 <oerjan> olsner: you seem unfamiliar with the alternate meaning
01:29:50 <olsner> oerjan: seemingly, I may seem so
01:30:50 <Sgeo> My ear still hurts
01:31:03 <oerjan> i generally ascribe to the principle that the simplest name should be first, anyhow, otherwise it sounds stilted
01:31:05 <olsner> Sgeo: cut it off before it spreads!
01:31:17 <alise> oerjan: yes, well, we can't really change Ner
01:31:27 <alise> otherwise the shoddy olsner-based foundation of all of this crap falls apart
01:31:29 <pikhq> 17:22 <+cheesworshiper> pikhq: My CPU is idling at 99 degrees celsius.
01:31:37 <oerjan> Odd Even Robertson Jan
01:31:39 <alise> Jack Tab is clearly an excellent name for a rugged American spaceship captain though
01:31:43 <pikhq> That is a *very* forboding thing to have as a last message before pinging out.
01:31:52 <olsner> oerjan: odd and even are nice norwegian names
01:32:27 <alise> "THE ESCAPING of the POINT" is a very good high-brow sci-fi title though, it could get us critical acclaim no matter what the contents of the book
01:32:27 <oerjan> nooga: we don't have a G in the acronym
01:32:44 <olsner> alise: you're assuming they won't actually read the book?
01:32:53 <alise> olsner: it's sci-fi. of course they won't
01:33:01 <nooga> oerjan: but it's a norwegian name, right?
01:33:13 <olsner> hah, right... only the stupid customers do :P
01:33:43 <nooga> olsner: oh no, you too?
01:33:52 <olsner> nooga: nope, I just fake it
01:34:01 <alise> olsner: well sci-fi hasn't got the greatest literary reputation ;)
01:34:20 <Sgeo> We have iStates now
01:34:26 <Sgeo> Southern iCalifornia
01:34:27 <pikhq> alise: Except for when the scifi in question has a good literary reputation.
01:34:32 <pikhq> Then, they argue it can't be science fiction.
01:34:50 <olsner> of course not, if it's good it's literature and not scifi
01:35:00 <alise> it's actually hard to come up with sci-fi authors that have escaped the toilet
01:35:09 <Sgeo> [i]California is now officially owned by Apple
01:35:30 <pikhq> Clearly "literature" only applies to things that are approved by 80 year old English majors!
01:35:50 <nooga> I've recently read some extremely awesome sci-fi
01:35:54 <alise> ("I have been a soreheaded occupant of a file drawer labeled 'science fiction' ever since [publishing 'Player Piano'], and I would like out, particularly since so many serious critics regularly mistake the drawer for a urinal." --Vonnegut)
01:36:09 <oerjan> Sgeo: maybe we could have them take iRan and iSrael next
01:36:12 <nooga> but it was from Polish author, probably it was even translated to english
01:36:23 <olsner> oh, but vonnegut makes literature rather than scifi, right?
01:36:28 <alise> nooga: Stanisław Lem by any chance? :P
01:36:32 <pikhq> olsner: That's the claim.
01:36:43 <alise> yes, I suppose Vonnegut managed to escape the urinal eventually
01:36:56 <olsner> I mean he *actually* doesn't deserve the scifi gutter, does he?
01:37:09 <alise> of course he doesn't
01:37:12 <alise> many sci-fi authors don't
01:37:22 <olsner> arguably none of them do
01:37:28 <pikhq> Oh, there's a few.
01:37:37 <pikhq> Their work is not very popular.
01:37:43 <olsner> bah! *arguably* anything, of course, since anything can be argued
01:37:43 <alise> it's a relic from the days of Amazing Stories!!! Robots from OUTER SPACE abduct BEAUTIFUL BARELY-CLAD WOMEN as HOSTAGES!!!
01:38:01 <olsner> omg they are BARELY-CLAD
01:38:06 <alise> BARELY EVEN CLAD AT ALL
01:38:09 <nooga> alise: no, his successor
01:38:10 <nooga> http://www.culture.pl/en/culture/artykuly/dz_dukaj_czarne_oceany
01:38:11 <pikhq> (with the exception of extended universe stuff. That's almost universally dreck, and somehow popular.)
01:38:22 <alise> How can you succeed another person XD
01:38:23 <nooga> this description is not accurate
01:38:29 <nooga> the book is really good as for SF
01:38:37 <pikhq> alise: Amazing Stories actually had some good stuff in it back in the day.
01:38:48 <olsner> herp derp, time to sleep methinks
01:38:51 <alise> pikhq: hmm, yeah, amazing stories was actually a real one
01:38:55 <alise> i was trying to come up with a name that sounded like it
01:38:59 <alise> but it's so hard, they all had stupid names like that
01:39:19 <Sgeo> Fantastic Voyage^HStories
01:39:31 <pikhq> Yeah; pulp magazines have some of the stupidest names.
01:39:33 <alise> pikhq: Star Trek novels are like badly-coded nano-machines
01:39:43 <alise> useless and replicating at a ridiculous rate
01:39:59 <olsner> alise: oh, I think that counts as making a funny
01:40:09 <Sgeo> alise, hey, there's a book with fan-submitted stores and there were some that I liked!
01:40:11 <alise> olsner: have i not been making funnies?
01:40:47 <olsner> alise: this observation has no relation to previous events
01:40:55 <alise> olsner: you're fun when you don't sleep; don't
01:41:10 <nooga> btw, alise, do you know some books by Lem?
01:41:26 <olsner> anyway, I'm woefully low on caffeinated beverages with dubious additives
01:41:27 <alise> nooga: I know of them, certainly; I want to read Solaris sometime.
01:41:31 <Sgeo> There was one story, Of Cabbages and Kings
01:41:48 <nooga> try Dukaj, if his works were translated
01:41:50 <olsner> this does not bode well for the morn
01:41:58 <pikhq> alise: BTW, Amazing Stories wasn't merely "a real one". It was the first pulp magazine devoted to science fiction.
01:42:07 <nooga> he is called the recent Lem
01:42:09 <alise> pikhq: yeah i know
01:42:20 <Sgeo> http://www.adherents.com/lit/bk_Thatcher.html#Cabbages
01:42:27 <alise> it's just, you know
01:43:11 <olsner> "pulp" is fun, it supposedly refers to the paper this particular quality of magazine was printed on... but I'm not quite sure what quality that is... I mean, all paper is pulp at some stage is it not?
01:43:38 <olsner> everything means nothing
01:44:15 <Sgeo> I read "pulp" as "for popular consumption"
01:44:19 <Sgeo> For some reason
01:44:41 <nooga> alise: http://www.dukaj.pl/English/ReadingRoom/BlackOceans
01:45:00 <alise> olsner: please don't sleep this is awesome
01:45:07 <olsner> "The name pulp comes from the cheap wood pulp paper on which the magazines were printed."
01:45:14 <alise> "His first codename was WINNIE_THE_POOH" gahahahaha
01:45:20 <pikhq> olsner: Yeah, but the paper they used had fairly minimal processing. It pretty much amounted to sticking wood pulp in a frame and letting it dry.
01:45:29 <alise> "He liked the poetry of English metaphysicians"
01:45:34 <alise> nooga: this is utterly bizarre
01:45:48 <olsner> hmm, well, isn't that what normal paper "pretty much" amounts to?
01:46:02 <alise> nooga: that first paragraph made absolutely no sense
01:46:20 <nooga> the book is about DARPA, corporations, neuromonads and more
01:46:21 <alise> it's, uh, not particularly good writing unless it has larger context to explain it
01:46:24 <alise> it's just random words
01:46:39 <nooga> it makes sense only if you're reading the whole
01:46:51 <nooga> this fragmet is about some stupid computer
01:46:55 <pikhq> olsner: With some chemical processes to get a finer paper out of it...
01:46:57 <olsner> alise: yes, it is quite random, but if you let it make sense it will
01:47:17 <nooga> not really relevant
01:47:20 <nooga> to the whole story
01:47:21 <alise> "The Point is approaching... Mach 7..."
01:47:35 <pikhq> Bleaching, for instance...
01:47:38 <alise> Command's calls of impending destruction did nothing to ease Tab's spirits.
01:47:53 <olsner> alise: oh! so at this point, it is not already established that the point has escaped?
01:48:11 <alise> He clenched his teeth, sat straight in his seat, closed his eyes, bit his lip... and aimed the ship's weapons at itself.
01:48:20 <alise> olsner: it has escaped already ... but now it approaches Tab
01:48:35 <olsner> right, Tab's Predicament
01:49:14 <alise> An infinitesimal moment passed; impossible to speak about, as though it occurred on the human scale of things, Tab did not think a single thought in its passing. And then, he fired.
01:49:39 <oerjan> "impossible to speak about" XD
01:50:07 <alise> He was expecting eternal nothingness so greatly that for a second or two he didn't bother to think, and he was just about ready to conclude that he was dead when he felt the ship around him. He opened his eyes. Somehow, the shots had missed the ship entirely. He ran a diagnostic.
01:50:14 <alise> oerjan: CONTRADICTIONS ARE LITERARY
01:50:40 <oerjan> LITERALS ARE CONTRACTED DICTION
01:51:09 <alise> "If I'm going to consult with you I'd at least like tea to be delivered on a *semi*-regular basis, dammit."
01:51:17 <alise> Oliver was not in a terribly good mood.
01:51:32 <olsner> "Diagnostics show nothing." Nothing!? Well, obviously the ship is still there, the shots had missed it.
01:51:38 <alise> THIS IS A MR. NER CHAPTER
01:51:42 <alise> GET YOUR FILTHY TAB MATERIAL OUT OF IT
01:53:11 <olsner> seriously, I don't have much to contribute right here... it doesn't work if you expect it of me
01:53:48 <alise> A lieutenant -- or, as Oliver would have had him called, leftenant -- approached Oliver. "Sir, Captain Tab just fired a shot at the Excellence itself in a desperate attempt to destroy the Point. But he just communicated with us a second ago; the ship is still there. No sign of the Point."
01:53:59 <alise> olsner: a professor of ... astrophysics or something
01:54:09 <alise> scholarly, very English. lives in a very old, grand house.
01:54:24 <olsner> No sign? No point? Obviously this is victory for Tab.
01:54:28 <alise> irritable. likes tea. genius. helping the US space agency at this point for no apparent reason
01:55:21 <alise> "Aha," said Tab, "but a sign would point to the point, and since there is no sign, there must be no point, as the point that would be there -- that is, the sign -- would point to the point; and if the point were pointed to, Tab would know where it is. Since he doesn't, the point must obviously be gone."
01:55:33 <alise> "Sir..." said the baffled lieutenant.
01:55:50 <alise> "Sorry, sorry," said Oliver. "Has he run a diagnostic?"
01:55:56 <alise> "He's doing so as we speak."
01:56:21 <alise> Tab drummed his fingers as the diagnostic ran.
01:56:39 <alise> The computer beeped. "Diagnostic complete", read the screen in front of him.
01:56:47 -!- calamari has joined.
01:56:56 <alise> Tab forwarded it to Command, and waited for the analysts to respond.
01:56:58 -!- calamari has left (?).
01:57:32 <alise> What seemed to Tab like an eternity of uncertainty passed, and eventually a response echoed out from the communications system.
01:57:37 <olsner> A diagnostic? How quaint. Did you expect the Diagnostic to simply point out the Point?
01:57:41 <alise> "The shots definitely fired. But the Point intercepted them."
01:57:52 <alise> "Have I destroyed it?"
01:58:00 <alise> "No. The shots did no damage."
01:58:08 <olsner> Intercepted the Point? But would there then not be a Sign?
01:58:32 <oerjan> i sincerely doubt the shots were intercepted. that would require them getting to the point, after all.
01:58:35 <alise> i need a name for a US general now
01:59:09 <olsner> how about... Attenbauer?
02:00:11 <alise> Oliver burst into the quiet office of General Attenbauer. "What the hell are you doing, bursting into my office like this?" the general asked, although it was more like an interrogating demand.
02:00:24 <oerjan> and if there is one thing we can assume here, it's that nothing can get to the point.
02:00:31 <alise> "Sir -- forgive me -- I have reason to believe that the Point is sentient."
02:00:47 <alise> "Sentient?" said Attenbauer. "You mean it can think?"
02:00:53 <olsner> oerjan: we are quite close to the point, in fact the Point has already been intercepted
02:01:05 <alise> "Yes; and act upon those thoughts, too. I think it put itself in the way of the shots to keep Tab alive."
02:01:38 <oerjan> hm that's a good point
02:01:40 <alise> "Then... it is either benevolent, or acting according to some greater plan that involves Tab in some way. But why do you believe this? The Point's actions have appeared completely random up until now."
02:02:23 <alise> "Because the ship's tracking of the Point shows erratic movement patterns that are entirely consistent with those of a being experiencing fear."
02:04:37 <nooga> http://fcuk.it/ O_o
02:06:26 <olsner> "Tab, look at it this way. It's afraid of you - you should have tea with it."
02:09:01 <olsner> "Tea with a Point? What does that even mean!?" thought Tab. He nodded as if the statement was both profound and obvious - it probably was to Oliver.
02:09:09 <oerjan> i think the point is to prevent tab completing his mission
02:09:18 <olsner> that may well be why it is
02:10:10 <pikhq> http://pinyin.info/readings/texts/moser.html Articles like this make me want to learn Mandarin.
02:10:16 <pikhq> *Just so I have room to mock people*.
02:10:34 <pikhq> (okay, so I cheat, because I can *already* comprehend (simple) written Chinese. But still.)
02:11:07 <olsner> alise: and that shall be it for now - for now I shall sleep
02:11:24 <alise> olsner: i think i may just cut out all your parts
02:11:30 <alise> and therefore cease all the profits
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02:15:19 <pikhq> "Very few Americans, on the other hand, ever learn to produce a natural calligraphic hand in Chinese that resembles anything but that of an awkward Chinese third-grader."
02:15:44 <alise> pikhq: is there anything wrong with that article?
02:16:13 <pikhq> alise: Factually? Not a hell of a lot.
02:16:22 <pikhq> alise: Opinion-wise? So very very much.
02:16:35 <alise> "Chinese is hard" seems like a reasonable opinion.
02:16:59 <pikhq> Except that he then goes on to say that it's impossibly hard and that it takes years and years just to learn all the characters.
02:17:09 <pikhq> Which is... Comical.
02:18:10 <pikhq> He also seems to labor under the impression that English's orthography is easy.
02:18:26 <pikhq> (it's one of the most complex.)
02:18:35 <alise> lojban solves all problems
02:18:47 <pikhq> Except getting laid.
02:19:45 <pikhq> (also: Japanese's orthography is, in fact, harder than Chinese.)
02:19:48 <alise> chinese doesn't solve that problem either :P
02:19:58 <alise> [[However, in mašq and those styles of kufic writing which lack consonant pointing, the ambiguities are more serious, for here different roots are written the same. ﯨطر could represent the root nẓr 'see' as above, but also nṭr 'protect', bṭr 'pride', bẓr 'clitoris' or 'with flint', as well as several inflections and derivations of each of these root words.]]
02:19:58 <pikhq> alise: Does if you're gay.
02:20:27 <alise> pikhq: Yes... because men like nothing more than Chinese.
02:20:39 <pikhq> alise: No, the thing is, there's a gender disparity in China.
02:20:50 <pikhq> Significantly more men than women.
02:21:08 <alise> Well, with Lojban you could also seduce someone from Lojbaia.
02:22:31 <alise> worst character ever
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02:24:56 <pikhq> What, it's just 口 + 土 + (... the 家 radical without the dot; can't type it easily) + 田 + 足
02:25:35 <pikhq> I was looking up a couple of characters because they don't have Japanese readings (so I can't just type them)
02:25:57 <pikhq> Oh, wait, that's just an obnoxiously archaic reading. Anyways.
02:26:25 <pikhq> STOP DOING THAT IRSSI
02:28:41 <pikhq> 口 + 土 + 冖 + 田 + 厶 + 疋
02:28:56 <pikhq> Two archaicisms and something that's not a character. Curses.
02:29:40 <pikhq> alise: Anyways. Lojbanistania Minshushugi Gijin Minkyouwakoku.
02:30:00 <pikhq> alise: The Democratic People's Republic of Lojbanistania.
02:33:41 <pikhq> This article is at least accurate in that romanisation for Chinese languages sucks majorly.
02:34:21 <pikhq> The Roman alphabet is just lacking in good ways of representing phonemes.
02:35:03 <pikhq> (arguably, romanisation for Anglo-Frisian languages also sucks majorly, and for the same reason...)
02:36:02 <pikhq> "ut where the real difficulty comes in is when you start to really use Chinese to express yourself. You suddenly find yourself straitjacketed -- when you say the sentence with the intonation that feels natural, the tones come out all wrong."
02:36:34 <pikhq> How do I know he's ignorant? Because this happens with a *lot* of languages! English's stress patterns sound freaking bizarre in *most* languages!
02:41:42 <alise> amaximaximaximainineoaerion
02:44:27 * Sgeo once again growls at broken power cables
02:44:35 <Sgeo> My computer will probably hibernate soon
02:44:40 <Sgeo> Because it's not getting power
02:44:50 <Sgeo> Because cables that enter my possession break uinstantly
02:47:56 <Sgeo> Well, it spontaneously decided to start charging again
02:55:50 <alise> a hole in tpace and sime
02:57:41 <oerjan> the relative playslime
03:11:09 <Sgeo> Playground of Jiyva
03:24:00 <alise> PLACE and SLIME, the critically-acclaimed sequel to THE ESCAPING of the POINT
03:24:51 <ais523> this reminded me of a debate on Slashdot
03:25:14 <ais523> where they were trying to discuss a programming language that had no legal issues at all, in practice or theory, and additionally that nobody would try to sue you for using
03:25:25 <ais523> in the end, they settled on Common Lisp, on the basis that nobody cares about it
03:28:02 -!- cheater99 has joined.
03:28:53 <Sgeo> Python has legal issues?
03:29:02 <alise> every damn language has legal issues in the US
03:29:07 <alise> there is a software parent for everything
03:29:12 <alise> ais523: i'm sure there's a patent on roman numerals :P
03:29:35 <ais523> CLC could probably patent CLC-INTERCAL style roman numerals right now as a design patent
03:29:53 <ais523> other than the fact he's Scottish and thus lives in a marginally saner patent environment than the US
03:30:29 * Sgeo wonders if PSOX is patentable
03:30:37 <Sgeo> Or, well, the idea of .. what PSOX is
03:31:17 <pikhq> If linked lists can be patented, so can PSOX.
03:31:35 <Sgeo> ......linked lists are patented?!
03:32:05 <pikhq> Most every non-trivial program will violate a software patent. Just give up on programming legally.
03:33:13 * Sgeo goes to patent "Hello, World!"
03:33:38 <ais523> actually, arguably Bilski means software patents aren't valid in the US any more, at least some of them
03:33:39 <Sgeo> "Hello, World!!!"
03:34:13 <pikhq> The US is still a crazy legal environment though.
03:34:17 <ais523> the courts even managed to reject some
03:34:25 <ais523> Sgeo: you could try following the Supreme Court more
03:34:30 <pikhq> Even if you *are* perfectly legal, you can probably be sued into bankruptcy.
03:34:37 <ais523> In re Bilski is the normal abbrevation
03:34:55 <pikhq> As defending yourself in court is expensive.
03:35:08 * alise installs Konversation to briefly review KDE 4's general usability
03:35:21 <alise> ais523: CLC is Scottish? cool
03:35:29 <pikhq> To the point of being effectively impossible if your opponent is a large corporation.
03:35:30 <alise> I will henceforth refer to him as Scotty.
03:35:35 <ais523> I don't know for certain, but there's very strong circumstantial evidence
03:35:59 <alise> <ais523> Sgeo: you could try following the Supreme Court more ;; haha
03:36:15 <alise> ais523: Do his bytes give off a certain hint of a Scottish accent?
03:36:29 <ais523> alise: CLC-INTERCAL's documentation describes it as a Scottish compiler
03:36:36 <alise> also, just the amusingness of a Brit telling a random person to follow Supreme Court proceedings, as if that were a perfectly normal thing to do
03:36:48 <alise> ais523: It's INTERCAL. Shouldn't that be evidence /against/ CLC being Scottish?
03:37:22 <Sgeo> So everything in the documentation is Gospel lies?
03:37:30 <ais523> he'd have had to have learnt Scottish Gaelic in order to improve the ruse
03:37:49 <alise> [ehird@dinky ~]$ kde4-config
03:37:52 <pikhq> alise: Isn't Sgeo... American?
03:38:30 <ais523> alise: how is KDE4, atm?
03:38:30 <alise> ais523: as opposed to Mexican Gaelic?
03:38:38 <ais523> as opposed to Irish Gaelic
03:38:44 <alise> well, yes, that would be reasonable
03:38:45 <alise> KDE 4 is yet to be evaluated.
03:38:47 <pikhq> alise: Ah; misparsed your statement.
03:38:55 <alise> Kind of hard to do so in GNOME.
03:39:07 <alise> I should probably install Konqueror instead.
03:39:11 <pikhq> FUCKING FUCK FUCK. I know this is minorly old news but AARGH
03:39:23 <pikhq> There's fucking segregated proms in the US still.
03:39:50 <pikhq> Fuck the south. Should've let them suceed.
03:39:50 -!- kalise has joined.
03:39:56 <kalise> it seems just like older KDE 4s to me
03:40:02 <kalise> which is probably not a good thing
03:40:15 <kalise> GNOME works, but it's just plain boring :-D
03:40:27 <kalise> I don't run Linux because I want things to actually /work/
03:40:57 <kalise> ais523: is there a reason you won't just adopt the obvious IRC naming convention and say "'In re Bilski'"?
03:41:00 <kalise> that is, "In re Bilski"
03:41:40 <ais523> to me, that's almost as grammatically incorrect as leaving off accents
03:41:54 <kalise> ais523: would you object to "Moby Dick"?
03:42:02 <kalise> after all, that would normally be set as \emph{Moby Dick}
03:42:12 <kalise> but the quotes suffice in ASCII
03:42:15 <ais523> for book names, it's less clear
03:42:18 <kalise> also, Wikipedia uses ''...'' for italics
03:42:21 <ais523> but quotes make it look like a subtitle
03:42:24 <kalise> lending more credence to it, I suppose
03:42:24 <ais523> and those are doublesinglequotes
03:42:36 <kalise> ais523: ok, what about 'In re Bilski'?
03:42:39 <ais523> I imagine most IRCers would think "''Moby Dick''" would be crazy
03:42:49 <ais523> then it looks like a trendy middle name
03:42:56 <ais523> along the lines of Elliot 'alise' Hird
03:43:29 <ais523> for some reason I'd remembered it as being specifically 1
03:43:30 <kalise> I swear, if my life was a sitcom, the spelling of my name would be the reliable comic foil.
03:43:35 <ais523> I knew you got annoyed whenever people got it wrong
03:43:51 <kalise> You try spending your formative years having your name spelled wrong in increasingly creative ways :)
03:43:51 <ais523> but I'd remembered "Elliott normally has two t's", probably because of you
03:44:04 <kalise> "Elliot" is the most common variation of the name, I think.
03:44:16 <kalise> it is what Wikipedia lists the name under
03:45:15 <Sgeo> I once wrote a card to a girl. I remembered seeing her name on a piece of paper, but when I asked my mom, she said the name would be spelled differently from what I thought I saw
03:45:40 <Sgeo> So I wrote down the spelling that she said, which turned out to be wrong
03:46:04 <pikhq> kalise: Imagine having a last name that only people from Britain can spell or pronounce. :P
03:46:21 <pikhq> Well, in your case it wouldn't come up much. But here... urgh.
03:46:29 <kalise> pikhq: Americans have trouble pronouncing "Hird", I think.
03:46:32 <Sgeo> pikhq, I think I'll call you Sauce
03:46:41 <pikhq> kalise: Anything like "herd"?
03:46:43 <kalise> Or rather, they simply have no idea how to go about pronouncing it, and definitely don't conclude it should be pronounced as a Brit would pronounce "herd".
03:46:47 <kalise> pikhq: British "herd".
03:46:58 <Sgeo> How's that different from heard?
03:46:58 <ais523> I'd pronounce "hird" and "herd" the same way...
03:47:03 <ais523> and "heard" for that matter
03:47:07 <kalise> ais523: Yes, but speakers of other dialects may not.
03:47:28 <pikhq> kalise: So, same as "heard" and "herd" and "hurd"...
03:47:42 <Sgeo> For some reason, people sometimes say "Set" or sometimes a name only relate to mine in that there's one syllible
03:47:58 <kalise> Konqueror gives me the same slightly-upset, mostly confused feeling as always
03:48:22 <pikhq> kalise: Imagine an ignorant American doing "Worcester".
03:48:31 -!- kwertii has joined.
03:48:38 <pikhq> kalise: War Chester.
03:48:51 <pikhq> THEY INSERT A FUCKING H
03:48:53 <kalise> Americans are more retarded than I thought.
03:48:58 <Sgeo> Once, I needed a late pass from some school librarian, and said my name "Gold"
03:49:10 <pikhq> I've also heard "War Kester".
03:49:16 <pikhq> I've actually never heard War Cester.
03:49:16 <ais523> your name isn't "Sgeo"?
03:49:22 <Sgeo> She asked "man?". I was thoroughly confused by this, and said yes, assuming she was asking if I was a man
03:49:28 <kalise> ais523: Seth Gold Seth Gold Seth Gold Seth Gold
03:49:32 <Sgeo> Turns out, she was asking if I meant "Goldman"
03:49:40 <kalise> [Sgeo's father has a heart attack]
03:49:43 <pikhq> And I'm absolutely astonished when someone pronounces it right.
03:49:54 <ais523> "Worcester" is pronounced something like "wooster" but with a shorter oo
03:49:57 <kalise> pikhq: Wusster. Not hard.
03:50:05 <pikhq> ais523: Very well aware.
03:50:14 <ais523> "Leicester" is another good one for confusing foreigners
03:50:19 <pikhq> kalise: Yes, but nobody does it right.
03:50:26 <Sgeo> kalise, I don't think you know my middle name
03:50:39 <kalise> does anyone know what KDE component contains the control centre?
03:51:11 <pikhq> kalise: Well, nobody except people from Massachusetts or Britan.
03:51:13 <kalise> yay, I coerced Epiphany into following my evil hintingless issues
03:51:28 <Sgeo> kalise, your nick reminds me of a Siner's nick
03:51:49 <kalise> Sgeo: True. I was wondering why it seemed familiar to me.
03:52:04 <kalise> All I remember about kaelis is that (s)he hated Gregor for some unrevealed, probably-stupid reason.
03:52:18 <kalise> (Actually, (s)he is probably the safest pronoun for every single member of Sine.)
03:54:44 <Sgeo> Gregor is still a Siner, fwiw
03:55:00 <Sgeo> Although he recently tried to do a poll asking if he should leave
03:55:41 <Sgeo> I think people were angry at him for some reason or another
03:56:35 <kalise> My experience with Siners is that they're a bunch of whiney, inconsistent, boring... entities. So it is.
03:56:50 <ais523> let me rephrase that: what is it meant to be?
03:56:54 <kalise> ais523: An IRC network.
03:57:00 <kalise> An "omg private" IRC network.
03:57:10 <kalise> irc.aftran.com, port 9999, I believe.
03:57:22 <kalise> Maybe not; aftran.com appears to be dead.
03:59:26 * Sgeo glowers at alise
03:59:38 <kalise> For revealing the secret?
03:59:52 <kalise> Tee hee. I'm disrupting the sanctity of the Prolonged, Internet-Based Grumble.
04:00:08 <Sgeo> I think certain persons would at least prefer if you used the IP address instead, although I may be mistaken
04:00:34 <kalise> How can anyone even care about that?
04:00:47 <Sgeo> The same way I might care if I set up sethgold.net
04:00:51 <Sgeo> Or sethgold.name
04:01:03 <kalise> Ah, yes. Because "Aftran" is someone's real name.
04:08:21 -!- sftp_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
04:20:13 <Sgeo> Google will now know exactly where I am during school hours :/
04:20:26 <oerjan> now you are just m--s--g with me
04:40:57 <ais523> oh well, it had to be done eventually: http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PG01&p=1&u=/netahtml/PTO/srchnum.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=%2220080270152%22.PGNR.&OS=DN/20080270152&RS=DN/20080270152
04:41:27 <ais523> a patent application on the process of suing somebody for damages over a patent
04:41:52 <pikhq> ais523: Not yet a patent though.
04:42:02 <ais523> I can't tell from that page whether it was granted or not
04:42:40 <pikhq> It would have a patent number if it were.
04:42:54 <pikhq> It seems to have not been summarily rejected.
04:42:58 <pikhq> Which is itself troublesome.
04:43:22 <kalise> ais523: I am currently conducting some sort of review of KDE SC 4.5.
04:43:38 <kalise> ("Software Collection", the fashionable new name for what we used to call KDE.)
04:44:03 <Sgeo> Also, Google owns my soul
04:44:30 <kalise> ais523: Konqueror uses smooth scrolling by default, which is insanely frustrating.
04:44:53 <pikhq> Smooth scrolling must die.
04:44:54 <ais523> if smooth scrolling is fast enough, it's OK I suppose
04:45:14 <ais523> is it the sort where you move the mouse wheel and half a second later the page finishes scrolling?
04:45:43 <kalise> except when it mysteriously gives up
04:45:58 <kalise> and just scrolls normally
04:46:03 -!- kalise has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
04:46:29 -!- kalise has joined.
04:46:36 <kalise> "Starting Akonadi server..."
04:46:53 <ais523> among other things, it crashed and claimed to have deleted all my IRC logs
04:47:03 <ais523> which was particularly ironic given that I eventually found them
04:47:38 <kalise> Ssh, the writers of Star Trek: Voyager will hear you!
04:47:55 <kalise> "Mwahaha! I have killed your entire crew!" "Noooo! But why are they standing right next to me on the bridge?"
04:48:01 <pikhq> They can produce bad ideas from anything.
04:48:04 <kalise> "They're figments of your imagination!" "NOOOOOOO! You win!"
04:48:10 <pikhq> They're even talented at it.
04:48:26 <kalise> pikhq: it would probably be a good idea if nobody ever talked, ever, just in case they heard
04:48:34 <ais523> meanwhile, ESR seems to be good at losing email
04:48:47 <ais523> he emailed me and asked for a copy of an email I'd sent him a few hours earlier
04:49:02 <kalise> it got caught in his Evil Idiotarian Liberal Moron filter
04:49:07 <kalise> (it filters 99.9% of email)
04:49:30 <ais523> also, Knuth's secretary emailed him (CCing me) answering a question with, effectively, "I've told you that at least twice already, but here's the answer again)
04:49:35 <ais523> kalise: no, he'd read the original
04:49:46 <ais523> and had forgotten something I'd written in it, so asked for another copy
04:49:54 <kalise> probably deletes the email he reads
04:50:01 <ais523> yes, that was my conclusion
04:50:32 <pikhq> Because kilobytes matter on terabyte drives.
04:50:50 <kalise> pikhq: i think it's an organisational thing used by people too stupid to create a Read folder
04:51:03 <kalise> ais523: wow, KDE Help Center requires htdig to create a search index
04:51:03 <ais523> what's wrong with the Read status in the email client?
04:51:14 <kalise> ais523: I mean, "read, considered, done".
04:51:22 <kalise> htdig is an html thing
04:51:37 <kalise> tl;dr KDE's help search works by indexing the rendered, output HTML files
04:52:03 <kalise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ht-//Dig
04:52:06 <ais523> that's not necessarily insane
04:52:12 <ais523> especially if they're stored as HTML in the first place
04:52:14 <kalise> well, ok, but it does suck for the end-user
04:52:35 <Sgeo> Rendered, not raw, so there should be nothing weird about searching for "html"
04:53:00 <kalise> "This configuration section is already opened in Konqueror"
04:53:03 <kalise> no it isn't, I closed that window
04:53:25 <ais523> meanwhile, Paul Allen (the less famous founder of Microsoft) has gone and sued most of the major tech companies in existence, except Microsoft
04:53:33 <ais523> one of the infringed patents is about using a browser to view images
04:53:56 <ais523> hmm, actually, data in general, but images and videos in particular
04:54:22 <Sgeo> I've seen speculation that what he wants to do is to get people to realize the absurdity of software patents
04:54:24 <pikhq> I vote we sue him for hurting my faith in humanity.
04:54:53 <ais523> Sgeo: it'd be a little expensive for that, wouldn't it?
04:55:04 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if Florian Muller's turned up yet, and what side he's on?
04:55:18 <pikhq> ais523: He's a billionare.
04:55:20 <kalise> a microsoft founder is actually a benevolent vigilante who throws away his millions for a good cause
04:55:27 <pikhq> He could wipe his ass with $100 bills.
04:55:43 <ais523> kalise: the good cause might be a side-effect
04:56:04 <ais523> incidentally, someone noticed that he seems to be avoiding suing companies based in Seattle
04:56:10 <ais523> whether that's a coincidence or not, who can say
04:56:17 <ais523> kalise: well, software patents do screw up the economy
04:56:22 <ais523> say he wants to make a tech startup
04:56:29 <ais523> he could do worse than eliminating software patents first
04:57:27 <kalise> Konqueror bug: it uses KHTML
04:57:31 <ais523> kalise: any opinions on why Intel bought McAfee, btw?
04:57:37 <ais523> kalise: I thought it was being ported to Webkit?
04:57:46 <kalise> ais523: "I need a virus scanner; buy McAfee for me."
04:57:49 <pikhq> kalise: Actually, it now uses QtWebkit.
04:57:56 <ais523> kalise: I don't believe that theory
04:57:57 <kalise> KDE SC 4.5, opened Konqueror
04:58:14 <kalise> View -> View Mode -> (*) KHTML
04:58:14 <ais523> Intel would surely notice if they bought a massive company by accident
04:58:25 <kalise> ais523: well, it's utterly nonsensical, so I'm sticking to that theory
04:58:26 <ais523> or even a medium-sized one
04:59:06 <ais523> kalise: Ars Technica's theory, which is the only one that even makes remote sense, is that they want to move into the security software business (combined with security hardware on their chips)
04:59:15 <ais523> and bought a company in a vaguely related area which already had market share
04:59:32 <kalise> new theory: McAfee make a shit ton of money
04:59:36 <kalise> Intel want a shit ton of money
04:59:47 <kalise> Intel buy McAfee to accrue shit tons of money in the future
05:00:01 <kalise> any flaws with this one?
05:00:12 <ais523> my parents dismissed that one
05:00:26 <ais523> on the basis that investment banks would have done it first if it was purely based on accounting reasons
05:00:58 <ais523> Intel are not likely going around looking for undervalued companies to buy as an investment
05:01:11 <ais523> sure, it'd be useful for them, but companies that specialise in that are likely to get there first
05:01:34 <kalise> yes, but it's a well-known fact that buying McAfee will get you a ton of money in the long-term
05:01:39 <kalise> Intel are in a vaguely related sector
05:01:44 <kalise> so it makes sense that they'd look for companies to buy up
05:02:16 <kalise> i'd say intel got mcafee quite cheap
05:02:39 <ais523> they do have the advantage that they could plausibly act so as to aid mcafee
05:03:06 <ais523> also, my faith in #esoteric has been restored by nobody yet suggesting hardware antivirus
05:03:25 <kalise> wait, why would that /restore/ your faith in our esotericiness?
05:03:53 <ais523> no, it restores my faith in humanity
05:03:56 <ais523> but only a small subset of it
05:04:06 <ais523> so I should say the #esoteric community
05:04:07 <kalise> but our point is to be basically inhumane
05:04:08 <ais523> rather than the channel itself
05:04:27 <ais523> nah, most esolangs are not morally objectionable
05:04:35 <kalise> hardware antivirus is?
05:04:47 <kalise> also, what esolangs /are/ morally objectionable?
05:04:52 <ais523> no, it's just a really realy bad idea
05:05:39 <kalise> you get a cookie if that played correctly in your head, first time
05:08:01 <pikhq> kalise: YOU TORTURE MONKEYS TO MAKE THE OOKS.
05:08:14 <kalise> ah so that's why the language is interesting
05:10:12 <ais523> anyway, the reconstructed C-INTERCAL repo is at http://gitorious.org/intercal/intercal
05:10:43 <kalise> How can you shame yourself with such juxtaposition?
05:10:47 <ais523> those are our gitorious usernames
05:11:06 <kalise> http://gitorious.org/cyclexa/mainline
05:11:09 <ais523> and I don't see why you can't work with someone on an unrelated task even if you disagree with their philosophies
05:11:29 <kalise> It's like, uh, working with Hitler!
05:12:10 <Sgeo> What's wrong with ESR?
05:12:12 <ais523> you just compared ESR to Hitler?
05:12:18 <ais523> that's illegal in Germany, among other things
05:12:30 <kalise> Yes, well, lots of things are illegal in Germany.
05:12:40 <ais523> and many of them should be elsewhere too
05:12:43 <ais523> although probably not /that/ one
05:13:09 <pikhq> kalise: You know who else made things illegal?
05:13:14 <kalise> "Genocide is illegal in Germany!" "Yes, well, lots of things are illegal in Germany."
05:13:21 <kalise> "Rape is illegal in Germany!" "Yes, well, lots of things are illegal in Germany."
05:13:28 <kalise> This is a defence that works in many situations.
05:13:35 <ais523> it's a pretty bad defense
05:14:05 <ais523> is "a but not a" inherently false?
05:15:01 <kalise> Not if you believe the dialetheists!
05:15:02 <Sgeo> Is "but" a logical ... operator thingy?
05:15:11 <kalise> but not = and not, pretty much
05:15:56 * ais523 vaguely wonders what the value of ( = ) is
05:16:01 <Sgeo> My toe is painfully itchy :(
05:16:45 <ais523> Gnome calculator says "Malformed expression"
05:16:55 <ais523> also, makes a strange clicking noise whenever you press or release Shift
05:17:18 <ais523> it both a) makes logical sense, and b) is annoying
05:17:53 <kalise> hey, the "using alphabetised lists to verbosely restate simple statements for dramatic effect" patent belongs to ME!
05:18:20 <Sgeo> a) My toe b) is itchy
05:18:26 * oerjan suggests putting on some lotion
05:18:52 <kalise> My toe is (a) a toe, and (b) itchy.
05:20:49 -!- kalise has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
05:20:58 -!- alise has quit (Quit: Leaving).
05:26:51 <Sgeo> Obviously, I should ask in here next time I have a medical issue
05:28:52 <oerjan> trust me, i'm a doctor
05:29:01 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: of mathematics).
05:29:38 <Sgeo> http://irc.peeron.com/xkcd/bucket/literal_irc%20medical%20advice.txt
05:31:33 <Sgeo> ais523, on Futurama, Zoidberg is a "doctor" who doesn't know the first thing about human anatomy
05:31:53 <ais523> ah, I assumed it was a Final Fantasy reference
05:32:34 <pikhq> ais523: You should watch Futurama.
05:32:53 <ais523> I have watched bits, when I noticed it was on
05:33:01 <ais523> but I don't really track things like the individual characters
05:33:22 <pikhq> Watch a few episodes, it'll be easy.
05:33:38 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOwX0qGhdlg
05:34:31 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwQF9g6EjPw&feature=related
05:46:38 <Sgeo> "The autopsy revealed that the patient was asleep."
05:46:52 -!- Gregor-L has joined.
05:47:07 * Sgeo does an autopsy on Gregor-L
05:47:16 -!- Gregor-L has changed nick to Gregor.
05:47:23 <Gregor> My internet connection left my computer.
06:22:22 <Vorpal> <ais523> I'm even less like AnMaster than you are in that respect <-- XD
06:22:54 <Vorpal> Gregor, ouch, what is/was the cause?
06:23:17 <Vorpal> Gregor, still, temporary using phone for tethering is a slow but not too expensive solution
06:23:27 <Vorpal> (at least with my dataplan)
06:24:29 <Vorpal> assuming it has left you completely
06:24:36 <Vorpal> instead of just a specific computer
06:24:45 <Vorpal> (in the latter case, even more ouch)
06:25:01 <Gregor> Vorpal: I was referring to taking my phone away from the computer :P
06:26:52 * Sgeo isn't allowed to tether
06:38:44 <Gregor> I'm not "allowed" to tether.
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06:40:02 <Gregor> Also, I have gcc on my phone now >: )
06:40:12 <Gregor> I think I should install lighttpd on it next :P
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07:03:00 <Sgeo> My dad wants me to choose between eReader and netbook I can bring to school
07:03:09 <Sgeo> I don't think netbooks can really run IDEs that well
07:03:34 <Sgeo> I mean, the class I need it for is Perl, and just ssh really, so for this semester it's ok, but...
07:04:38 <Sgeo> Also, I still want that infinite notepad paper that the eReader promises
07:11:22 <Gregor> If you want infinite notepad paper, go with something more like ... notepad paper.
07:11:43 <pikhq> Also: IDE? You mean an editor and a shell?
07:12:19 <Gregor> pikhq: Also a compiler, and maybe make :P
07:12:39 <Gregor> Anyway, if those are your only options, then clearly the netbook.
07:12:40 <pikhq> Gregor: Okay, fine.
07:12:48 <pikhq> Sgeo: Also: IDE? You mean ssh?
07:13:11 * pikhq goes to listen to some Hitchhiker's Guide, then bed.
07:20:15 <Sgeo> pikhq, as in, Visual Studio
07:20:30 <Sgeo> Or something more OSS like Code::Blocks
07:26:06 <Sgeo> If I get the eReader, I would have to bring my heavy laptop to school
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08:17:46 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: being a man... it's not here... better get some rest tonight. let's do our best, but... i can't stop anymore.
08:48:15 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7* fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
08:49:02 <Vorpal> <Gregor> I'm not "allowed" to tether. <-- I'm allowed to, but the carrier warns that "it won't work with an iphone, nothing we can do about that"
08:49:22 <Vorpal> and there is no way I would ever consider getting an iphone
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08:50:12 <Vorpal> Sgeo, why a netbook btw?
08:50:37 <Sgeo> Well, are there small laptops roughly as light as netbooks? Are they as cheap?
08:50:47 <Sgeo> If so, I'll try to convince my dad
08:50:51 <Vorpal> Sgeo, I use a laptop, 15". Large enough to use for extended periods while small enough for me to carry in a non-oversized backpack
08:51:20 <Vorpal> Sgeo, *my* laptop isn't cheap. It is a thinkpad. But I'm pretty sure a dell of the same screen size and similar cpu would be way cheaper
08:51:28 <Vorpal> of course it wouldn't last as long
08:51:55 <Vorpal> and would lack features like acceleration sensor to move harddrive head over the discs and so on
08:52:06 <Vorpal> and would have a non-matte monitor
08:52:14 <Vorpal> not sure if you consider that a problem
08:52:25 <Vorpal> Sgeo, still it would probably run visual studio quite well
08:52:32 <Vorpal> and there are small ones, 13" and such iirc
08:52:59 <Vorpal> Sgeo, iirc alise and ais523 both have some "netbook sized, laptop performance" computers
08:53:14 <Vorpal> Toshiba iirc, could be wrong though
08:53:37 <Sgeo> Any advantages to a netbook over a netbook-sized laptop?
08:53:42 <Vorpal> Sgeo, but using visual studio on a 12" would probably not be a very pleasant experience
08:53:59 <Vorpal> Sgeo, maybe battery life, not sure.
08:54:39 <Vorpal> Sgeo, and that netbooks probably still come with xp instead of vista or 7. Though that is easy to fix. If nothing else most universities seem to provide MSDNAA to compsci students these days
08:55:25 <Vorpal> Sgeo, oh and with a laptop you can probably run windows in virtualbox with reasonable performance. I can recommend the 64-bit xp pro as being especially fast under virualbox for me
08:55:53 <Vorpal> haven't tried visual studio though, never really needed it
08:56:25 * Sgeo does need to sleep
08:57:35 <Sgeo> I should have been asleep a while ago
08:58:35 <Vorpal> Sgeo, the C programming teacher showed visual studio running in some xp under virtualbox on his netbook. He ran linux as the native OS, saw it when he was hooking up the projector. His window manager was twm
08:58:44 <Vorpal> never really seen anyone else use that for ages
08:59:25 <Sgeo> Why wouldn't he just use an IDE that runs under Linux if that's.... Oh. Idiot students
08:59:32 <Vorpal> Sgeo, he showed emacs too :P
08:59:56 <Vorpal> Sgeo, but since the lab computers have xp he needed to show how it worked there
08:59:58 <Sgeo> Ok, putting the computer down and sleeping
09:01:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Mainly because it's the only proper X window manager on OS X, though.
09:10:31 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, X on OS X doesn't look like it is using twm iirc?
09:10:44 <Vorpal> rather window bars look like native OS X iirc
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09:58:34 <Phantom_Hoover> He always wears overalls and a helmet, and his identity is a closely guarded secret.
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09:58:53 <Phantom_Hoover> But now he wants to publish an autobiography, and the BBC are Very Annoyed at this.
10:06:49 <coppro> I suppose anonymous publishing is out of the question
10:11:38 <fizzie> Ooh, I know the show; I think some Finnish channel shows it, and my wife's brothers watch it. We were visiting one day and saw this episode where they "revealed" his identity to be Schumacher.
10:11:54 <fizzie> No recollection of the name though.
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10:24:28 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, yeah, but that's widely accepted as being a joke.
10:28:39 <fizzie> "The original Stig actor, Perry McCarthy revealed his identity in his autobiography[2][3] in 2002. In 2003 his character, the 'Black Stig', was killed off, and replaced with the 'White Stig'." Heh; if he goes through with the book, it seems he should be careful of "accidents".
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11:05:53 <Vorpal> checking for gcc... gcc
11:05:53 <Vorpal> checking whether we are using the GNU C compiler... no
11:05:53 <Vorpal> checking whether gcc accepts -g... no
11:05:53 <Vorpal> checking for gcc option to accept ISO C89... unsupported
11:06:24 <Vorpal> and then it complain about stdlib.h not exisiting, yet when I try out the commands that it reports fails in config.log manually... everything works
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11:46:47 <Vorpal> hm got it to compile in the end
11:46:51 <Vorpal> From the debug output of a JIT compiler for 68k emulation: Max CPUID level=10 Processor is GenuineIntel [PentiumPro]
11:46:51 <Vorpal> This is a bit strange since it is running on a core 2 duo and JITing to x86_64 code.
11:46:51 <Vorpal> Works fine though as far as I can tell...
11:47:19 <Vorpal> fizzie, iirc you are the guy most likely to have a clue about what might cause that
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11:48:27 <Vorpal> it seems to have x86-64 as an alternative
11:48:37 <Vorpal> hm, maybe it only checks for AMD + x86-64 or such
12:12:41 <fizzie> I think you'll need to look at the sources if you are curious enough. The CPUID model/family bits are a real mess, though.
12:15:16 <fizzie> "Max CPUID level=10" probably refers to the value returned by function 0, which returns the vendor-ID ("GenuineIntel" if it's a core 2) and the largest supported standard cpuid function; 10 sounds a reasonable value there.
12:19:42 <fizzie> It probably says "PentiumPro" because PPro is the first CPU to return family=6, which is what pentiums II, III, M, and Core/Core2/Core i7, and Atom, return too. (P4 returns family=15, for some unclear reason.)
12:20:05 <fizzie> They can be separated from each other by the "model" number, but maybe it doesn't look at that.
12:20:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, indeed it seems to not look at the model
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12:27:17 <Vorpal> heh... I never seen System 7 boot in less than a second before. Ubuntu didn't compile the package with JIT support, but since they dropped it in lucid I had to compile it myself anyway, and thus enabled JIT. Even without JIT it boots way faster than any real mac that came with system 7. But with the JIT on and the "lazy invalidation" option it boots so fast I can only see a flicker after the happy mac s
12:27:26 <Vorpal> and even the happy mac one is unusually fast
12:28:40 <fizzie> "Intel® Processor Identification and the CPUID Instruction" application note has the CPUID family/model table, and it's about four pages with numerous footnotes, and that's only Intel's own chips.
12:29:30 <fizzie> "To differentiate between the Pentium III processor, model 7 and the Pentium III Xeon processor, model 7, software should check the cache descriptor values through executing CPUID instruction with EAX = 2. If 1M or 2M L2 cache size is reported, the processor is the Pentium III Xeon processor otherwise it is a Pentium III processor or a Pentium III Xeon processor with 512-KB L2 cache size."
12:30:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, you said i7 returns family 6 too, but what about i5?
12:30:20 <fizzie> Probably that, too, but the table was dated 2009, and I don't think they had introduced i3/i5 at that time.
12:30:39 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: tonight's enchantment night! all you like? oh, by the train. hoo-boy... all clear' function.
12:31:09 <fizzie> fungot: Do you have some good ideas for new styles?
12:31:09 <fungot> fizzie: this is my special gas chamber. take care of you to stop that stupid heidegger ever use it right now.
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14:22:50 <Vorpal> hm anyone has any experience with SDL here?
14:23:16 <Vorpal> I'm wondering how to make it not do X11 stuff async so I can get a meaningful backtrace for this X11 error...
14:24:54 <fizzie> I doubt you can make the X11 video-driver do that without any code changes.
14:25:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, you can do it for gtk stuff by just passing --sync iirc
14:25:15 <Vorpal> I'm looking for something similar for sdl
14:25:28 <fizzie> It takes some SDL_VIDEO_X11_FOO environment-variable options, but there doesn't seem to be anything useful there.
14:26:10 <fizzie> The list is at http://sdl.beuc.net/sdl.wiki/SDL_envvars but it doesn't seem very useful.
14:27:46 <fizzie> SDL_DEBUG has sometimes been useful for debugging, but probably not for a delayed X11 error.
14:28:54 <Vorpal> strange but I get different errors at different points
14:29:27 <Vorpal> hm this one is new... "Fatal IO error 11 (Resource temporarily unavailable) on X server :0.0."
14:29:57 <Vorpal> and how strange.... the backtrace winds through both SDL and gdk...
14:30:13 <Vorpal> hm it supports both optionally so I guess this makes it even trickier
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14:30:35 <Vorpal> but at least this last one seems sensibly related to what I was doing at the time of the crash (moving mouse)
14:30:48 <Vorpal> SDL_CreateCursor is in the backtrace
14:31:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, btw it seems lucid has messed up the debugging symbol repos, missing for packages in lucid-updates
14:31:39 <Vorpal> I guess I have to downgrade to lucid for those packages to make the debugging symbols work...
14:49:37 <fizzie> For some completely inexplicable reason, I wrote myself a private pastebin, even though the improvements gained over something like sprunge.us are pretty minor. (Works as a tinyurl-style link-shortener, can handle non-text/plain stuff too, able to specify meaningful names for pastes, and update/delete existing ones.)
14:53:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, pretty much only works for only one user pasting
14:53:37 <fizzie> Sure, but like I said, it's private.
14:53:39 <Vorpal> considering the meaningful name bit
14:54:17 <fizzie> Here's a random kernel source file: http://p.zem.fi/test -- and through the highlighting eggine, http://p.zem.fi/test.c
14:54:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm it seems that SDL_DEBUG makes it do sync stuff more often, though not all the time
14:54:35 <Vorpal> and yes whatever it is, it is definitely cursor related
14:56:17 <fizzie> XSynchronize(SDL_Display, True);
14:56:31 <fizzie> Not a runtime option, of course. :p
15:00:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, could I fake that from the program source you think?
15:00:47 <Vorpal> as in, do I have access to call it where needed
15:02:07 <fizzie> I think so, yes, though you might need to do some very nonstandard fiddling to get the SDL_Display value.
15:03:33 <fizzie> SDL_Display is a macro for this->hidden->X11_Display, and 'this' is a SDL_VideoDevice * from somewhere.
15:04:09 <Vorpal> static int X11_VideoInit(_THIS, SDL_PixelFormat *vformat)
15:04:29 <fizzie> _THIS is "SDL_VideoDevice *this".
15:04:39 <fizzie> So that the code inside can use "this->foo".
15:05:01 <Vorpal> well then I just need to step a few times and do call XSynchronize(whatever, 1)
15:05:49 <fizzie> Anyway, you can get the Display* from a public SDL function, too: SDL_GetWMInfo fills a SDL_SysWMinfo structure for you, and then you have (assuming SDL_SysWMInfo i) i.info.x11.display that's a Display*.
15:07:41 <Vorpal> int (*XSynchronize(Display *display, Bool onoff))();
15:07:50 <Vorpal> that doesn't look quite right
15:08:00 <Vorpal> why is there function pointer syntax there in it
15:08:09 <Vorpal> (gdb) call XSynchronize(this->hidden->X11_Display, 1)
15:08:09 <Vorpal> $8 = (int (*)(Display *)) 0
15:08:13 <Vorpal> that looks suspect too
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15:08:42 <fizzie> It returns a function.
15:08:56 <fizzie> The one set by XSetAfterFunction.
15:09:13 <Vorpal> well it returned a NULL function pointer
15:09:33 <fizzie> I don't think that matters much.
15:09:43 <fizzie> It should still toggle the synchronization thing on.
15:10:06 <Vorpal> aaah way more useful error
15:10:19 <Vorpal> it was cursor related still but not the same call
15:10:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, now to try to decode this: http://sprunge.us/gTJJ
15:10:53 <alise> Wow, I'm actually getting used to freetype's rendering-sans-hinting.
15:11:09 <alise> Actually all usage of freetype is akin to getting used to something.
15:11:19 <alise> Usually a stupid thing.
15:11:41 <fizzie> It tries to FreeCursor something that hasn't been Cursored, is my guess.
15:12:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, well... that's strange. I can't trace it back very far into the application due to JITing. Still hm... Actually that stack trace looks VERY strange
15:13:01 <Vorpal> http://sprunge.us/EPKV
15:13:04 <Vorpal> strange even for JITing
15:14:00 <Vorpal> ../SDL/video_sdl.cpp is in the app, I guess that is the best place to continue looking now
15:14:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, btw this things require at least -O1 to compile. Not sure why exactly but some JIT auto-code-poke tools seems to want -O1 or higher
15:16:10 <Vorpal> err I wonder... I have no idea if it is allowed but I think it frees a cursor without hiding it first
15:17:07 <fizzie> I don't think that should be a crashy problem, but who knows.
15:17:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, other things making this fun to debug, this thing does more mad things with mmap than jitfunge (it requires being able to map at 0x0) and also more segv stuff than it. (sigsegv is somehow related to video refreshing... I haven't probed too much into that area)
15:19:20 <fizzie> Incidentally, if you want to try a trivial thing, try out "SDL_VIDEO_X11_DGAMOUSE=1 ./app"; it should use a bit different mouserying thing then.
15:19:39 <fizzie> My guess is an app bug, still, but.
15:21:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, what does DGAMOUSE do?
15:21:56 <Vorpal> and can it still set custom bitmaps for the cursor?
15:23:02 <alise> what are we doing here?
15:24:02 <fizzie> Presumably it uses the DGA extension's mouse thing. Though I doubt it actually affects the cursor parts at all.
15:24:24 <fizzie> Vorpal's setting up some sort of JIT'ing 68k emulator which keeps crashing, if I've understood right.
15:24:30 <alise> "Introducing... Web Workers *BETA* / combining the sanity of threads with the robustness of web development / Smiling Cartoon Guy: What could possibly go wrong? / TODO: - Find out what could possibly go wrong"
15:25:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, well no, ppc. I'm trying to get sheepshaver to work with SDL since SDL makes one of the programs I want to emulate work properly (as opposed to the plain X alternative)
15:26:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, the 68k was separate (though sheepshaver and basiliskII share quite a bit of code)
15:27:15 <fizzie> Oh, okay. Well, nevertheless.
15:27:30 <alise> SheepShaver is incredibly crashy.
15:28:38 <alise> 00:50:37 <Sgeo> Well, are there small laptops roughly as light as netbooks? Are they as cheap?
15:28:40 <Vorpal> alise, yes but there is no better alternative
15:28:50 <alise> i have an extremely light 13" laptop that i use for everything
15:28:56 <alise> it cost a bit less than £500.
15:29:09 <alise> it isn't sold any more. there's a new model out. it is probably just as good.
15:29:13 <Vorpal> sheepshaver is the only classic mac PPC emulator I know of
15:29:38 <alise> 00:53:37 <Sgeo> Any advantages to a netbook over a netbook-sized laptop? ;; a bit longer battery life, slightly smaller (but not really lighter in any real sense)
15:29:43 <alise> I'd always recommend the latter.
15:30:00 <Vorpal> alise, does he log read?
15:30:12 <alise> maybe not but i can ping him next time he's online
15:30:36 <alise> 01:01:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Mainly because it's the only proper X window manager on OS X, though.
15:30:40 <alise> You can install ones, you know.
15:30:46 <fizzie> Mac-on-Linux works well (in my limited testing), but of course is not much of a help unless you have a PPC linux system handy.
15:30:58 <alise> 01:58:07 <Phantom_Hoover> coppro, the test driver on a British motoring show.
15:31:04 <alise> Top Gear is famous enough to reference by name.
15:31:53 <alise> 02:11:38 <fizzie> Ooh, I know the show; I think some Finnish channel shows it, and my wife's brothers watch it. We were visiting one day and saw this episode where they "revealed" his identity to be Schumacher.
15:31:56 <alise> Yes, that is Top Gear.
15:33:44 <alise> Vorpal: so are you patching the program?
15:33:54 <alise> if so, please publish a tarball or a .patch
15:37:19 <fizzie> I once installed evilwm on OS X; what an absurd combination.
15:37:26 <alise> macports makes it quite easy. although the cool kids use homebrew these days
15:37:56 <alise> fizzie: I remember my plight to get KDE 3 compiling with native OS X Qt.
15:37:56 <fizzie> (evilwm's in macports, too.)
15:38:01 <alise> God bless me for attempting that.
15:38:09 <alise> Someone else already managed it; I never could, though.
15:38:19 <alise> The whole goal was running Amarok on OS X without that pesky X11 thing.
15:38:38 <alise> This was before KDE 4 made it all officially supported and whatnot.
15:40:06 <alise> [[David Sansome and John McGuire have been working on a project, which aims to port Amarok 1.4 to Qt4 and rewrite it to make full use of Qt4 features. The project has been christened as “clementine-player”.]]
15:40:46 <alise> http://www.clementine-player.org/screenshots/clementine-0.4-2.png Who would have thought that Amark would look native on Windows?
15:44:21 <Vorpal> alise, I will patch the program if I figure out how to fix it
15:44:35 <Vorpal> my first guess turned out to be wrong
15:44:47 <Vorpal> and no I have no clue why it acts like this
15:47:18 <alise> Would the same issue happen with BasiliskII?
15:47:33 <alise> I'd try myself but I don't want to put in so much effort that still neglects System Software 6.
15:48:52 <Vorpal> alise, no it doesn't seem to use the same code path for the cursor handling
15:49:07 <alise> So BasiliskII works, then?
15:49:21 <Vorpal> alise, for this, it is quite easy to make it crash as well
15:49:36 <Vorpal> just not quite as easy as with sheepshaver
15:50:30 <Vorpal> alise, and atm I'm suspecting memory corruption, since everything seems to be done correctly as far as I can tell... And valgrind on sheepshaver would not work.
15:51:49 <Vorpal> alise, guess what VOSF stands for in the preprocessor define ENABLE_VOSF
15:51:56 <alise> [[You can then try to compile the program with
15:52:05 <alise> Vorpal: Vandalise Open Source Foundation
15:52:13 <Vorpal> alise, Video On SegFault
15:52:31 <alise> http://homepage3.nifty.com/toshi3/emu/sheepshaver1.html why does this say sheepshaver for x86
15:52:35 <Vorpal> alise, no I have no idea what exactly it does but it sure scares me
15:52:50 <alise> videos your reaction and uploads it to youtube
15:52:55 <Vorpal> alise, sheepshaver works on linux/ppc too iirc
15:53:05 <alise> SheepShaver for x86 (日本語) --Sheepshaver home page
15:53:12 <alise> i'll just use the emaculation source
15:53:12 <Vorpal> alise, use the CVS version
15:53:14 <alise> not the official one
15:53:18 <Vorpal> alise, they are less buggy
15:53:26 <Vorpal> as in, actually compiles
15:53:26 <alise> than the emaculation sources?
15:53:58 <Vorpal> alise, I used cvs from http://www.cebix.net/
15:54:01 <alise> hmm, not sure if they've actually done any sourec work
15:54:15 <alise> Vorpal: i'm talking about http://www.emaculation.com/doku.php/sheepshaver which is where most people get their sheepshaver fix
15:54:16 <Vorpal> alise, there are actually a few random recent commits
15:54:20 <Vorpal> like adding missing include
15:54:29 <alise> http://www.emaculation.com/lib/exe/detail.php/sheep1.png?id=sheepshaver Graphing Calculator fuck yeah!!!!!!!!!
15:54:42 <alise> Optional dependencies for clementine
15:54:43 <alise> gstreamer0.10-base-plugins: for more open formats
15:54:43 <alise> gstreamer0.10-good-plugins: still free
15:54:43 <alise> gstreamer0.10-ugly-plugins: damn if you really need those
15:54:59 <alise> Vorpal: a port of Amarok 1.4 to Qt 4
15:55:06 <alise> Amarok 1.4 = Amarok before they ruined it with the stupid 2 interface
15:55:13 <alise> well, also maintained and changed and stuff
15:55:16 <alise> but those are its origins
15:55:41 <Vorpal> alise, anyway sheepshaver runs as long as you use X11+esd instead of SDL for video and/or audio
15:55:45 <alise> http://www.clementine-player.org/screenshots/clementine-0.4-1.png on Linux
15:55:47 <alise> http://www.clementine-player.org/screenshots/clementine-0.4-2.png on Windows :P
15:55:56 <alise> Vorpal: esd? seriously?
15:56:07 <Vorpal> alise, well yes from configure options it seems to use that
15:56:19 <alise> god CVS is so crazy
15:56:30 <Vorpal> maybe it uses esd with OSS fallback
15:56:32 <alise> "Can I run MacOS X applications under Windows with this?
15:56:32 <alise> No. Firstly, SheepShaver doesn't run under Windows. Secondly, MacOS X doesn't run under SheepShaver."
15:56:50 <Vorpal> alise, indeed you need OS 8/9 for sheepshaver
15:56:57 <alise> it's just a funny answer :P
15:57:21 <Vorpal> actually don't trust me on MacOS 8 working with it
15:57:28 <Vorpal> since I don't own a copy of that
15:57:51 <Vorpal> you need 9.0.4, no later
15:58:08 <Vorpal> later ones use those "blue tasks" which sheepshaver can't hande
15:58:17 <Vorpal> google blue tasks if you want to find out details
15:59:02 <alise> who cares about those versions
15:59:24 <alise> System Software 6, System Software/Mac OS 7, Mac OS 8.
15:59:27 <alise> Nothing else matters.
15:59:38 <Vorpal> alise, well I don't know how well 8 works with sheepshaver
15:59:46 <alise> so how do you configure the build?
15:59:47 <Vorpal> and as I said, I don't own a copy of 8
15:59:49 <alise> edit some header file?
15:59:54 <Vorpal> alise, sheepshaver or basilisk?
16:00:22 <alise> System Software 6, while obviously the most usable and fastest release, does not really have much software support.
16:00:25 <Vorpal> alise, http://sheepshaver.cebix.net/ tells you
16:00:39 <alise> only shows a stock compile process
16:00:50 <Vorpal> alise, ah, autogen invokes configure
16:00:55 <Vorpal> so just pass it --help
16:00:58 <Vorpal> then use normal configure
16:01:20 <Vorpal> alise, anyway you need a ROM image for this, which you can extract with basilisk from an update for PPC
16:01:20 <alise> Vorpal: try compiling it with clang >:)
16:01:27 <Vorpal> that is how I bootstrapped it :)
16:01:32 <alise> Vorpal: Yes, or, I could pirate one
16:01:33 <Vorpal> since the rom on my mac didn't work
16:01:57 <alise> i'm actually gonna compile this with clang
16:02:00 <Vorpal> alise, oh and basilisk cvs configure is currently broken
16:02:07 <Vorpal> alise, you need to edit configure.ac
16:02:18 <alise> i'll only be doing sheepshaver for now
16:02:26 <Vorpal> that works somewhat out of box
16:02:34 <Vorpal> just remember to not enable sdl
16:02:40 <alise> system7today.com is so fun :)
16:02:51 <alise> "Foo? Yeah, System 7 can do that."
16:02:56 <Vorpal> alise, can sheepshaver run system 7?
16:03:12 <Vorpal> well the ROM it needs is from OS 8 iirc
16:03:33 <alise> well you can do it with basilisk
16:03:35 <alise> using the older 7s
16:03:37 <alise> "And for Basilisk I recommend the Performa ROM (it makes System 7 boot"
16:03:44 <alise> 22 Aug 2010 ... SheepShaver for Windows is best used with Mac OS 8.6 to 9.0.4, but check below for notes about running System 7. ...
16:03:52 <Vorpal> alise, you need a rom for basilisk yes
16:04:19 <alise> huh, clang does not have an -On options?
16:04:48 <alise> clang -pipe -O4 --analyze
16:04:56 <alise> oh, that's just a bug finder
16:04:59 <alise> just -pipe -O4 then
16:05:18 <alise> --enable-ppc-emulator use the selected PowerPC emulator default=auto
16:05:18 <Vorpal> alise, yeah it's a bug finder! It would probably go spare at sheepshaver
16:05:32 <Vorpal> alise, that is because it runs code natively on Linux/PPC
16:05:41 <Vorpal> alise, don't use that flag
16:05:46 <alise> so why would you use SDL instead of X11/esd?
16:05:47 <Vorpal> it will figure out you aren't on PPC
16:06:05 <alise> does it have a make uninstall?
16:06:19 <Vorpal> alise, well, until it crashes it makes one of the games I get nostalgic about work. the X11 one just gives a black screen in it
16:06:31 <Vorpal> anyway it crashes sooner or later with sdl even without running that game
16:06:41 <alise> [ehird@dinky Unix]$ CC=clang CFLAGS="-pipe -O4" ./autogen.sh
16:06:46 <alise> configure: error: in `/home/ehird/bii/SheepShaver/src/Unix':
16:06:47 <alise> configure: error: C compiler cannot create executables
16:06:59 <alise> Vorpal: if it has make uninstall i don't need prefix :)
16:07:01 <Vorpal> alise, I don't know why it can't
16:07:21 <alise> clang: error: 'x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu': unable to pass LLVM bit-code files to
16:07:54 <Vorpal> alise, well it installs 4 files or such iirc, the binary, a man page, a keymap (need to be customised!) and finally some tun-iface script example
16:08:00 <alise> how utterly bizarre
16:08:22 <alise> does --with-dgcc default to $CC?
16:08:23 <Vorpal> alise, I suspect your chance of success is close to zero with clang
16:08:34 <alise> some configure option
16:08:40 <alise> AC_ARG_WITH(dgcc, [ --with-dgcc=COMPILER use C++ COMPILER to compi
16:08:41 <alise> le synthetic opcodes], [DYNGEN_CC=$withval])
16:09:03 <alise> USE_DYNGEN = @USE_DYNGEN@
16:09:03 <alise> DYNGENSRCS = @DYNGENSRCS@
16:09:03 <alise> DYNGEN_CC = @DYNGEN_CC@
16:09:03 <alise> DYNGEN_CFLAGS = @DYNGEN_CFLAGS@
16:09:05 <Vorpal> alise, oh right, with gcc at least, you need at least -O1 in CFLAGS
16:09:14 <Vorpal> otherwise some compile time generation tool will segfault
16:09:23 <alise> [ehird@dinky Unix]$ CC=clang CFLAGS="-pipe -O3" ./autogen.sh
16:09:33 <alise> wow configure is working
16:09:39 <Vorpal> you forgot CXXFLAGS I think
16:09:39 <alise> that's unbelievable
16:10:10 <Vorpal> alise, I think it is possibly even more insane to use clang for the C++ code though
16:10:20 <alise> Configuration done. Now type "make".
16:10:41 <alise> cc1plus: error: unrecognized command line option "-mdynamic-no-pic"
16:10:48 <alise> g++ -I../kpx_cpu/include
16:11:00 <Vorpal> configure checks if -mdynamic-no-pic is supported
16:11:03 <alise> what do i set for C++ compiler?
16:11:08 <Vorpal> alise, CC and CXX are separate yeah
16:11:13 <Vorpal> try ./configure --help
16:11:18 <Vorpal> remember to make distclean
16:11:26 <Vorpal> it breaks otherwise... sometimes
16:11:28 <alise> does clang Just Work if you pass it a c++ file?
16:11:45 <alise> just work as in just break :P
16:11:50 <alise> (because it sucks at C++)
16:12:16 <Vorpal> alise, do I look like a walking man-page/google/encyclopedia?
16:12:27 <alise> well, ais523 looks like that to you
16:12:32 <alise> so i may as well return the favour
16:12:41 <alise> /bin/sh: clang^CFLAGS=-pipe: command not found
16:12:47 <alise> [ehird@dinky Unix]$ CC=clang CXX=clang^CFLAGS="-pipe -O3" CXXFLAGS="-pipe -O3" ./autogen.sh
16:12:52 <alise> after copy-pasting from a line I ^C'd on
16:13:08 <Vorpal> alise, why did ^C insert a literal one though
16:13:27 <alise> because that's how my terminal displays it?
16:13:29 <alise> or rather my shell
16:13:37 <alise> if you do it mid-line
16:13:45 <alise> clang is actually compiling this Vorpal
16:13:50 <alise> ../timer.cpp:342:32: warning: conversion specifies type 'unsigned long' but the
16:13:51 <alise> argument has type 'uint32' (aka 'unsigned int') [-Wformat]
16:13:51 <alise> printf("WARNING: InsTime(%08lx): Task re-inserted\n", tm);
16:13:57 <Vorpal> alise, I doubt doubt it will work for a few files
16:14:01 <Vorpal> alise, some are pretty sane
16:14:04 <alise> sigsegv.cpp:2585:30: error: use of undeclared identifier
16:14:04 <alise> 'SIGSEGV_FAULT_HANDLER_ARGLIST'
16:14:04 <alise> static bool handle_badaccess(SIGSEGV_FAULT_HANDLER_ARGLIST_1)
16:14:10 <alise> sigsegv.cpp:2490:41: note: instantiated from:
16:14:10 <alise> #define SIGSEGV_FAULT_HANDLER_ARGLIST_1 SIGSEGV_FAULT_HANDLER_ARGLIST
16:14:14 <alise> what the hell does that mean?
16:14:16 <Vorpal> alise, ah you need a patch from the karmic package for that I think
16:14:21 <alise> Vorpal: got a link?
16:15:07 <Vorpal> alise, http://sprunge.us/JGEf http://sprunge.us/KGZG
16:15:12 <Vorpal> alise, probably need both
16:15:19 <Vorpal> alise, I applied before even trying to compile
16:15:36 <Vorpal> wait, not the True case one
16:15:41 <Vorpal> I think that one is fixed in cvs
16:15:42 <alise> ahh -O4 is link-time optimisation
16:16:14 <alise> konqueror opens http://sprunge.us/KGZG syntax-highlighted as a diff
16:16:17 <alise> with code folding to the side
16:16:42 <Vorpal> alise, it done that for ages
16:17:12 <alise> still, impressive that it autodetected the former
16:18:34 <alise> error on the same file fun fun
16:18:38 <alise> sigsegv.cpp:2592:31: error: use of undeclared identifier
16:18:39 <alise> 'SIGSEGV_FAULT_ADDRESS'; did you mean 'SIGSEGV_INVALID_ADDRESS'?
16:18:39 <alise> SI.addr = (sigsegv_address_t)SIGSEGV_FAULT_ADDRESS_FAST;
16:18:39 <alise> ^~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
16:18:43 <alise> this is from the video on segfault thing I bet
16:18:57 <alise> Vorpal: but yeah, what now
16:19:03 <Vorpal> alise, I didn't get that one
16:19:26 <alise> #define SIGSEGV_FAULT_ADDRESSsip->si_addr
16:19:28 <Vorpal> alise, are you sure you applied the patch properly?
16:19:28 <alise> it's defined, so wut?
16:19:56 <alise> patch -p3 <foo.patch in Unix; it applied with some fuzziness but cleanly.
16:20:10 <alise> first one that worked :)
16:20:30 <Vorpal> patch --dry-run is awesome
16:20:45 <Vorpal> pity it isn't -n or something short
16:21:50 <alise> sigsegv.cpp is so impossible
16:22:08 <Vorpal> alise, I haven't needed to edit it so far apart from that patch
16:22:28 <alise> linux 64-bit right?
16:22:39 <Vorpal> linux x86-64, ubuntu lucid
16:23:02 <Vorpal> alise, and I think I only needed that patch for basiliskII, not for sheepshaver
16:23:28 <alise> #ifdef HAVE_SIGSEGV_RECOVERY
16:23:28 <alise> static bool handle_badaccess(SIGSEGV_FAULT_HANDLER_ARGLIST_1)
16:23:29 <alise> static bool handle_badaccess()
16:23:31 <alise> sigsegv_info_t SI;
16:23:33 <alise> SI.addr = (sigsegv_address_t)SIGSEGV_FAULT_ADDRESS_FAST;
16:23:46 <alise> surely this can't work if the SIGSEGV_FAULT_HANDLER_ARGLIST_1 isn't there
16:24:01 <alise> i think it's misdetecting my system
16:24:05 <Vorpal> alise, I think you might be missing some dep
16:24:16 <alise> i can't find the bloody block of defines that define it for regular 64-bit linux
16:24:35 <Vorpal> alise, this was in sigsegv of basilisk, not sheepshaver. Right?
16:24:58 <Vorpal> um no clue if that works
16:25:05 <alise> well it's not my fault it's compiling
16:25:10 <alise> have you got video on segfault enabled
16:25:22 <Vorpal> alise, I have it on yes
16:25:48 <alise> ok, there is no possible way this works on your system and not mine
16:25:49 <Vorpal> alise, check siginfo stuff in configure output
16:26:15 <Vorpal> alise, looking at the preprocessor logic it should be relevant for this
16:27:02 <Vorpal> alise, hm it works without that patch too for me
16:27:24 <Vorpal> alise, maybe configure is missing to check for something properly
16:27:46 <alise> Bad memory access recovery type .. :
16:27:48 <alise> that's not reassuring
16:28:00 <alise> since that's what sigsegv.cpp is all about
16:28:02 <Vorpal> alise, was that from configure?
16:28:19 <alise> checking whether we can skip instruction in SIGSEGV handler... no
16:28:28 <alise> so why is it doing this
16:28:44 <alise> answer: it can't think of a good recovery type
16:28:48 <Vorpal> configure:9849: checking whether we can skip instruction in SIGSEGV handler
16:28:48 <Vorpal> configure:9875: g++ -o conftest -pipe -O1 -march=native -ggdb3 -I/usr/include/SDL -D_GNU_SOURCE=1 -D_REENTRANT -Wl,-O1,--as-needed conftest.cpp -lrt -lpthread -l
16:28:48 <Vorpal> m -L/usr/lib -lSDL -lesd >&5
16:28:48 <Vorpal> configure:9875: $? = 0
16:28:48 <Vorpal> configure:9875: ./conftest
16:28:50 <Vorpal> configure:9875: $? = 0
16:28:52 <Vorpal> configure:9893: result: yes
16:29:07 <Vorpal> I get same result for non-SDL build though
16:29:08 <alise> configure:9826: checking whether we can skip instruction in SIGSEGV handler
16:29:08 <alise> configure:9852: clang -o conftest -pipe -O3 conftest.cpp -lpthread -lm -l
16:29:09 <alise> SM -lICE -lX11 -lXext -lXxf86dga -lXxf86vm -lesd >&5
16:29:13 <alise> [the same errors from the actual c file]
16:29:25 <Vorpal> alise, it errors there?
16:29:41 <Vorpal> just to see if that works
16:29:44 <alise> patch -p3 <(curl http://sprunge.us/JGEf) ;; skillz
16:29:49 <alise> Vorpal: i think i may be able to fix the problem
16:30:33 <Vorpal> alise, well I don't need the patch it turned out.
16:31:04 <alise> configure:9826: checking whether we can skip instruction in SIGSEGV handler
16:31:04 <alise> configure:9852: clang -o conftest -pipe -O3 conftest.cpp -lpthread -lm -l
16:31:04 <alise> SM -lICE -lX11 -lXext -lXxf86dga -lXxf86vm -lesd >&5
16:31:04 <alise> In file included from conftest.cpp:94:
16:31:04 <alise> ./sigsegv.cpp:2592:31: error: use of undeclared identifier 'SIGSEGV_FAULT_ADDRES
16:31:05 <alise> S'; did you mean 'SIGSEGV_INVALID_ADDRESS'?
16:31:06 <alise> SI.addr = (sigsegv_address_t)SIGSEGV_FAULT_ADDRESS_FAST;
16:31:08 <alise> ^~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
16:31:10 <alise> ./sigsegv.cpp:2481:37: note: instantiated from:
16:31:12 <alise> #define SIGSEGV_FAULT_ADDRESS_FAST SIGSEGV_FAULT_ADDRESS
16:31:14 <alise> ^~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
16:31:21 <alise> ./sigsegv.cpp:2614:32: error: use of undeclared identifier 'SIGSEGV_REGISTER_FIL
16:31:22 <alise> if (SIGSEGV_SKIP_INSTRUCTION(SIGSEGV_REGISTER_FILE)) {
16:32:34 <Vorpal> alise, SIGSEGV_FAULT_ADDRESS is defined in the sigsegv.h file
16:33:26 <alise> Vorpal: when you run configure
16:33:34 <alise> <alise> Bad memory access recovery type .. :
16:39:27 <Vorpal> Bad memory access recovery type .. : siginfo
16:39:58 <Vorpal> alise, btw you need to do this as root before you can run sheepshaver (once you managed to compile it):
16:40:11 <Vorpal> echo 0 > /proc/sys/vm/mmap_min_addr
16:40:22 <Vorpal> it needs to be able to mmap page 0 to run
16:40:35 <alise> Vorpal: ok, so i need to install siginfo?
16:40:45 <alise> i can find no such package
16:40:55 <Vorpal> alise, well, try this with gcc
16:41:39 <Vorpal> alise, I will speak to you again after you either solved it or tried with gcc
16:44:11 <Vorpal> well ducks is a different topic than sheepshaver, so okay, I can discuss that species of birds if you like.
16:44:17 <Vorpal> Not that I have much to add to it
16:47:08 <alise> Vorpal: fun fact: if you do a quick swap of lolcode's keywords with more conventional things, it becomes a regular programming language
16:47:26 <alise> with some strangeness; for instance, a conditional is "bool / if / then / ... / else / ... / endif"
16:47:32 <alise> Vorpal: oh, but in a much stronger sense than merely resemblance
16:47:35 <Vorpal> alise, some notes that might help though: siginfo seems related to sigaction(), which afaik is POSIX and handled in libc
16:47:42 <alise> I can literally imagine this being released as a real programming language
16:47:47 <Vorpal> I would suspect clang is indeed the issue there
16:47:58 <alise> plainText!!append srvr
16:48:05 <alise> gotta be a nicer keyword for if there, it seems really weird
16:48:18 <Vorpal> why do if and then have to be separate keywords
16:48:26 <alise> BOTH SAEM tmpServer AN "OK"
16:48:26 <alise> plainText!!append WIF srvr
16:48:27 <Vorpal> unless they can occur separated?
16:48:33 <alise> because that's how lolcode has it
16:48:43 <alise> perhaps check / ifso are the closest to those
16:49:04 <alise> or perhaps check / iftrue / iffalse
16:49:07 <Vorpal> alise, oh and check the result of the "whether your system supports extended signal handlers" test
16:49:13 <Vorpal> that is where it detects siginfo I think
16:49:25 <alise> checking whether your system supports extended signal handlers... no
16:49:42 <Vorpal> alise, and as far as I know it is libc, not compiler implemented
16:49:57 <Vorpal> alise, so check config.log for details on that test
16:50:04 <alise> http://pastie.org/1122599.txt?key=0drwzd3rf6teud4qg8akuw ;; this is LOLCode, with a simple substitution
16:50:27 <alise> yeah it uses java classes
16:50:32 <alise> it's run in "Java LOLCode"
16:50:44 <Vorpal> alise, are all implementations using that?
16:50:45 <alise> implementation-specific of course
16:50:56 <alise> but lolcode impls are a bit wildly varying anyway
16:51:13 <Vorpal> alise, apart from stdio iirc?
16:51:22 <alise> dunno if anyone follows it
16:51:29 <alise> print "HAI WORLD!"
16:51:41 <Vorpal> alise, what is the !! notation you used
16:51:49 <alise> that's !! in the original
16:51:53 <alise> presumably java-lolcode specific
16:51:55 <Vorpal> and what does it mean?
16:52:09 <alise> foo!!bar xyz == foo.bar(xyz)
16:52:18 <alise> foo!!bar WIF xyz in the original
16:53:18 <Vorpal> alise, your code is however an improvement compared to java for most part
16:53:27 <alise> http://lolcode.com/keywords/iz a more conventional if statement
16:53:48 <alise> The traditional if/then construct is a very simple construct operating on the implicit IT variable. In the base form, there are four keywords: O RLY?, YA RLY, NO WAI, and OIC.
16:54:00 <alise> O RLY? branches to the block begun with YA RLY if IT can be cast to WIN, and branches to the NO WAI block if IT is FAIL. The code block introduced with YA RLY is implicitly closed when NO WAI is reached. The NO WAI block is closed with OIC. The general form is then as follows:
16:54:07 <Vorpal> alise, the !! notation I find is not very good but apart that, and some other small details, quite nice compared to java
16:54:23 <alise> BOTH SAEM ANIMAL AN "CAT", O RLY?
16:54:23 <alise> YA RLY, VISIBLE "J00 HAV A CAT"
16:54:23 <alise> NO WAI, VISIBLE "J00 SUX"
16:54:38 <alise> tmpServer == "OK", check
16:54:39 <alise> plainText!!append srvr
16:54:39 <alise> plainText!!append " | OK\r\n"
16:54:55 <alise> BOTH SAEM ANIMAL AN "CAT"
16:54:55 <alise> YA RLY, VISIBLE "J00 HAV A CAT"
16:54:55 <alise> MEBBE BOTH SAEM ANIMAL AN "MAUS"
16:54:55 <alise> VISIBLE "NOM NOM NOM. I EATED IT."
16:55:06 <alise> iftrue, print "J00 HAV A CAT"
16:55:06 <Vorpal> alise, any luck with sheepshaver?
16:55:13 <Vorpal> I find lolcode utterly boring
16:55:16 <alise> ifelse animal == "MAUS"
16:55:20 <alise> print "NOM NOM NOM. I EATED IT."
16:55:24 <alise> Vorpal: of course it is
16:55:30 <alise> but it's hilarious just how unesoteric it is
16:55:38 <alise> they've managed to produce something almost identical to a regular language
16:55:51 <Vorpal> alise, so did you try with gcc yet?
16:55:59 <Vorpal> alise, or even check that thing in config.log?
16:56:12 <alise> im gonna try with gcc now
16:56:50 <alise> checking whether your system supports extended signal handlers... yes
16:56:50 <alise> checking whether we can skip instruction in SIGSEGV handler... yes
16:57:43 <Vorpal> alise, then I suggest you either check what the error is for clang in config.log, or just use gcc :P
16:57:53 <alise> no clang is awesome
16:57:56 <Vorpal> I strongly doubt clang will manage the jit
16:58:44 <Vorpal> alise, sure it is nice, but I'm not that interested in spending time on trying to port a most likely very GCC specific JIT to clang
16:58:59 <Vorpal> alise, of course you can do it if you want
16:59:09 <Vorpal> the error might be trivial to fix
16:59:14 <Vorpal> or it might be impossible
16:59:27 <alise> http://lolcode.com/specs/1.2 wow it's so formal
16:59:35 <Vorpal> but it might need a huge rewrite
16:59:56 <alise> the language is terribly formal in it
17:00:30 <alise> All LOLCODE programs must be opened with the command HAI. HAI should then be followed with the current LOLCODE language version number (1.2, in this case). There is no current standard behavior for implementations to treat the version number, though.
17:00:36 <alise> ah so that's better translated as "lolcode N", not "begin N"
17:00:50 <Vorpal> alise, so did you look at config.log for clang?
17:00:56 <alise> just the same errors
17:01:04 <Vorpal> alise, for that siginfo test?
17:01:06 <alise> SheepShaver compiles now anyhoo
17:01:10 <Vorpal> as opposed to the other ones
17:01:18 <alise> "Zap PRAM file" lol
17:01:35 <Vorpal> alise, makes perfect sense to me, but where does it say that?
17:01:56 <alise> zapping PRAM is funny because it was incredibly common advice back in the day and almost always did nothing helpful
17:02:04 <alise> "I have a problem with--" "Zap your PRAM."
17:02:16 <Vorpal> alise, okay so then you need a ROM, a install cd iso (or *.toast, iirc sheepshaver can use *.toast images)
17:02:25 <Vorpal> those I can't help you with
17:02:29 <alise> CD? seriously? for system 7?
17:02:51 <Vorpal> alise, well I had a PPC performa with system 7.5
17:02:56 <Vorpal> it came with the system on a cd
17:03:05 <Vorpal> alise, 68k probably didn't
17:03:21 <alise> The colon may also introduce more verbose escapes enclosed within some form of bracket.
17:03:21 <alise> :(<hex>) resolves the hex number into the corresponding Unicode code point.
17:03:21 <alise> :{<var>} interpolates the current value of the enclosed variable, cast as a string.
17:03:21 <alise> :[<char name>] resolves the <char name> in capital letters to the corresponding Unicode normative name.
17:03:53 <Vorpal> alise, and anyway, getting hold of the rom takes a bit of work
17:05:08 <Vorpal> alise, that looks like it is designed for ease of parsing rather than ease of use
17:05:26 <alise> Operators that work on specific types implicitly cast parameter values of other types. If the value cannot be safely cast, then it results in an error.
17:05:26 <alise> An expression's value may be explicitly cast with the binary MAEK operator.
17:05:26 <alise> MAEK <expression> [A] <type>
17:05:26 <alise> Where <type> is one of TROOF, YARN, NUMBR, NUMBAR, or NOOB. This is only for local casting: only the resultant value is cast, not the underlying variable(s), if any.
17:05:29 <alise> this is ridiculous
17:05:52 <alise> Vorpal: sdl compiles for me, how do i produce an error?
17:06:04 <Vorpal> alise, by running it and then moving the mouse about
17:06:13 <alise> i sort of lack the files to do that
17:06:53 <Vorpal> I'll be back in a few minutes
17:10:51 <fizzie> What's this "the rom" that takes a bit of work?
17:12:08 <Vorpal> both 68k and ppc ones takes a bit of work to find
17:12:18 <fizzie> "A bit of work" they're right there at oldos.org.
17:12:31 <Vorpal> with the 68k you can trivially get the ppc one thanks to being able to extract it from an update
17:12:32 <fizzie> Well, at least the Quadra 650 ROM I used last time.
17:12:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, right, that works for basiliskII, not sheepshaver
17:12:48 <alise> don't suppose anyone has a system 7 disc?
17:12:57 <Vorpal> alise, no, I sold that performa years ago
17:13:36 <Vorpal> alise, check macintoshgarden though
17:13:40 <Vorpal> they have lots of old software
17:13:51 <alise> "abandonware" hahahahaha
17:14:00 <Vorpal> alise, quite a bit of it is, not all is though
17:14:05 <alise> no, abandonware is bullshit
17:14:10 <alise> legally meaningless
17:14:22 <Vorpal> *shrug* I don't run it
17:14:24 <alise> "this thing is old and not sold any more, therefore I can publish it for free" has never been true
17:14:35 <fizzie> Hm? The instructions I adapted last time -- http://wiki.oldos.org/Mac/PPCEmulator -- set up SheepShaver (with OS 7.5.5) with that particular ROM.
17:16:10 <fizzie> Haven't tried this for a while, though.
17:16:21 <alise> http://www.macintoshgarden.org/apps/macintosh-system-76-mac-os-76
17:16:27 <alise> Temporarily unavailable due to high bandwidth costs
17:16:48 <Vorpal> alise, yes, check comments for alt downloads
17:17:02 <alise> Temporarily unavailable due to high bandwidth costs
17:17:06 <alise> Temporarily unavailable due to high bandwidth costs
17:17:11 <alise> Temporarily unavailable due to high bandwidth costs wtf
17:17:18 <alise> "Copy Text" is grayed out in the menu how bizarre
17:17:20 <alise> there are System 7, Mac OS 8 and 9 installs there (and a lot of good programs)
17:17:25 <alise> so i'll try that link
17:18:15 <Vorpal> alise, I got 9 from a certain bay ages ago (due to my physical cd being damaged :/)
17:18:15 <alise> Mac OS 7.6 Install.sit
17:18:40 <Vorpal> alise, oooh this looks like a "open the box with the crowbar found inside" issue
17:18:52 <alise> i'm sure i can unpack sits on linux :P
17:18:59 <alise> configure: WARNING: Sorry, no suitable addressing mode in direct
17:18:59 <alise> configure: error: Sorry, the JIT Compiler requires Direct Addressing, at least
17:19:00 <Vorpal> alise, only old old sit
17:19:13 <alise> it probably is old old sit
17:19:23 <Vorpal> what is that about direct
17:19:27 <fizzie> You can unpack very *very* few sit files on Linux; the tools are horribel.
17:19:31 <Vorpal> sheepshaver requires "real"
17:19:41 <Vorpal> basiliskII requires "direct" or "real"
17:19:41 <alise> i was trying to enable jit compiler in basilisk
17:19:57 <alise> what's the patch you need?
17:20:20 <Vorpal> alise, I needed to fix configure.ac
17:20:26 <alise> configure: WARNING: Sorry, no suitable addressing mode in real
17:20:26 <alise> configure: error: Sorry, the JIT Compiler requires Direct Addressing, at least
17:20:36 <Vorpal> alise, read the first 5 lines or so
17:20:43 <Vorpal> it will claim GCC doesn't support C89
17:20:50 <Vorpal> and that stdlib.h is broken
17:20:57 <Vorpal> reality: configure.ac needs manual patching
17:21:09 <alise> so what do i have to do
17:22:11 <Vorpal> alise, right near the top of configure.ac, after the AC_CONFIG_HEADER line
17:22:14 <Vorpal> AC_USE_SYSTEM_EXTENSIONS
17:22:27 <Vorpal> alise, then rerun autogen.sh
17:23:33 <Vorpal> alise, that JIT can make OS 7 load so fast you only see a flicker for the extensions
17:23:43 <Vorpal> alise, on the other hand it breaks some old games I play in it
17:24:11 <Vorpal> and even without the JIT stuff is faster than any "real" System 7 system that I used
17:24:19 <alise> it can't use either addressing mode for me, so yeah
17:24:38 <Vorpal> alise, how very strange... what distro?
17:25:11 <Vorpal> alise, could be related. Not sure
17:25:19 <alise> Crazy Language Idea: "employees.each { print employee.name }"; that is, the implicit argument name to closures passed to iterators is the singular of the collection name.
17:25:28 <alise> people.each { print person.age }
17:25:47 <alise> Addressing mode ........................ : direct
17:25:48 <alise> what how can that be
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17:27:46 <alise> ah i have jit enabled
17:28:46 * Sgeo decides to attempt to endure Pidgin again
17:29:04 <Vorpal> Sgeo, alise had some stuff in the lo
17:29:08 <Vorpal> replies to what you said
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17:32:08 <alise> Gwenolé Beauchesne is maintaining a version of Basilisk II with a dynamically recompiling 680x0 emulation.
17:33:18 <Vorpal> alise, that is the one you are using afaik?
17:33:46 <Vorpal> alise, or something based on it
17:34:14 <Vorpal> Sgeo, you might know it as 68k
17:34:53 <Vorpal> alise, the link in question is dead
17:34:57 <fizzie> Whoa, BasiliskII's startup in JIT-mode is indeed the fast.
17:35:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, even more so with these settings:
17:35:41 <Vorpal> enable lazy invalidation
17:35:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, that is the fastest one, the "constant jump" one slowed it down for me
17:35:56 <fizzie> Compile FPU and lazy invalidation were (at least here) checked by default; cache was 8192, though.
17:36:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm, they were unchecked here
17:36:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, however it breaks on some old apps
17:36:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, it starts faster than any real mac ever did even without JIT, so not really an issue
17:37:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, like 2 seconds with jit disabled
17:37:20 <Vorpal> a fraction of a second with it enabled
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17:57:24 <Vorpal> alise, any luck with getting stuff running?
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18:00:40 <fizzie> strings quadra650.rom, selected snippets:
18:03:09 <fizzie> Inspired by the topic, I dug out the original iBook installation discs and dumped "Classic Support" in again.
18:04:03 <fizzie> OS 9.2, and all kinds of useful things, like Netscape Communicator, and IE 5.0.
18:05:02 -!- cheater99 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
18:05:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, IE 5 was quite good, for it's time
18:05:35 -!- cheater99 has joined.
18:05:44 <Vorpal> far better than IE6 even
18:06:55 <fizzie> It has a "Mac OS ROM" image in it too, but I don't suppose it works in SheepShaver. (Still, nice that it starts with some Forth code.)
18:07:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, then I think it might
18:07:30 <Vorpal> it sounds like openfirmware stuff
18:07:42 <fizzie> Well, it starts with <CHRP-BOOT>, and there's a <BOOT-SCRIPT> made of Forth.
18:08:11 <fizzie> It *looks* like a newworld ROM, but SheepShaver said "segfault" when I told it to use it. Of course it might've segfaulted on something completely difererent.
18:08:41 <Sgeo> Maybe I should attempt to learn Forth
18:08:53 * Sgeo wonders how many languages he knows, and how many he's forgotten
18:09:07 <Sgeo> Hmm, the forgotten list arguably includes Perl and COBOL
18:09:18 <Sgeo> Although I still remember some bits of COBOL
18:11:36 <fizzie> http://p.zem.fi/grkg -- weird place to crash, on the opening { of SCSIInit. It seems as if something has overwritten the function with zeroes.
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18:13:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, it hasn't crashed
18:13:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, same way that jitfunge getting sigsegv didn't crash :P
18:13:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, to run it under gdb you need:
18:13:40 <Vorpal> handle SIGSEGV nostop noprint
18:13:40 <Vorpal> handle SIG40 nostop noprint
18:13:40 <Vorpal> handle SIG41 nostop noprint
18:14:40 <fizzie> Hmm'k; but it does crash in the sense that the process dies with segfault.
18:16:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, what ROM are you using?
18:16:18 <Vorpal> not the same as for basilisk I hope?
18:16:28 <fizzie> "ERROR: Unsupported ROM type." -- aw. (Disabled the JIT thing.)
18:16:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, well if you have basilisk working you can trivially get one for sheepshaver
18:16:52 <fizzie> Oh, I was just trying out that iBook "Classic support" ROM. I didn't really expect it'd work.
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18:17:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, by getting 68k tomeviewer (available for free from various places) + one update from apple
18:17:32 <Vorpal> and then extract the rom from that update
18:17:34 <fizzie> Yep, I saw that in the interwebs somewhere.
18:17:54 <fizzie> What's the deal with the addressing modes, by the way? With --enable-addressing=direct it dies to the segfault; without, it gives that "Unsupported ROM type" message.
18:19:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, um I don't know about that
18:19:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, but it needs to be = real for sheepshaver
18:20:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, for = real to work you need to do that "allow mmap of page 0" thing I mentioned above
18:20:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, ppc without jit is unusably slow
18:21:16 <fizzie> For PPC System pre-8.5 I'd need an oldworld rom, anyway.
18:21:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, I don't have that. What I have is the "update from apple" one
18:25:56 <fizzie> Interesting. "The document "TomeViewer 1.3d3" could not be opened, because the application program that created it could not be found. Could not find a translation extension with appropriate translators." (And this was supposed to be a 68k version especially for the rom-extraction with Basilisk II.)
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18:27:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, did you unpack it in a way as to preserve the resource fork?
18:27:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, a ppc executable that is valid won't give you that error on 68k
18:27:52 <fizzie> I guess it could be. It was a .sit, extracted it with the Stuffit Expander 5.5 that I have inside BasiliskII, and it didn't complain. (Not that I know if there's any checksums in .sit files.)
18:28:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm... do you have disk copy in there?
18:28:26 <Vorpal> if so I could send you a *.img.hqx
18:29:19 <Vorpal> fizzie, sit alone won't do it
18:29:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, iirc you need to *.bin or *.hqx it
18:29:36 <Vorpal> to make it safe to transfer
18:30:05 <fizzie> Possibly, it's just that I only see it as plain .sit file. I would think StuffIt would complain if the .sit isn't whole, but who knoes.
18:30:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, so. do you have disk copy or not?
18:31:01 <fizzie> Yes, but using it sounds like giving up; I'm going to extract that thing out of the .sit no matter what. :p
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18:36:50 <Atomix> I saw channel on the list, I wondered - what are you discussing here?
18:37:51 <Vorpal> Atomix, esoteric programming languages
18:38:25 <Vorpal> such as brainf*ck, INTERCAL, befunge and so on. see also our wiki at esolangs.org/wiki
18:38:31 -!- Gregor has joined.
18:38:41 <Atomix> whats the purpose of these languages?
18:38:41 <Sgeo> Atomix, do you know what a programming language is? It's a language that humans can write and read (usually) that contain instructions for computers
18:38:53 <Sgeo> An esoteric programming language is one that's not intended for mainstream use
18:38:53 <Vorpal> Atomix, fun and recreation I guess
18:38:58 <Atomix> i have made several applications
18:39:03 <Sgeo> Maybe to see if some weird thing can be done
18:39:13 <Sgeo> There's one language deliberately made to be difficult to write in
18:39:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway if you want that file it will be at http://mewtwo.sporksirc.net/~anmaster/tmp/TomeViewer.img.hqx until tomorrow
18:39:36 <Vorpal> Sgeo, one? malbolge? intercal?
18:39:44 <Sgeo> I was thinking of Malbolge
18:39:46 <fizzie> Vorpal: Craziest things ever. I added a bit more memory (8 → 64) to the BasiliskII (so that it can run iCab -- was thinking of maybe downloading it directly there), and for some reason now extracting tomeviewer.sit worked. Or at least the file now has a proper icon.
18:40:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, I'm not *that* surprised in fact.
18:40:18 <Atomix> so can you give me some nice example where you have used esolang ?
18:40:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, there is some strangeness with downloading non-hqxed dual fork files
18:40:33 <Sgeo> Atomix, sane people don't use esolangs for productive products
18:40:41 <Sgeo> They're just for fun
18:40:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, will remove that file I uploaded then
18:40:53 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yes, but this was the very same .sit file I extracted; I didn't download it with iCab. The only thing I changed was the memory.
18:41:01 <Vorpal> Atomix, the bot fungot in here is coded in one
18:41:04 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
18:41:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, why so little ram for it? I have like 512 MB assigned to it iirc
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18:42:26 <alise> trQ\WATESYCFIUBHNOJPMK'L
18:42:26 <alise> ]O#KJI'HU;PYGTIRESZYWAT\RSTyezrtivugphojk
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18:42:38 <Vorpal> Sgeo, FING yes, what about it
18:42:47 <fizzie> Vorpal: I didn't have my old config file in ~, so it had defaulted to 8M.
18:42:54 <Sgeo> Vorpal, I assume it's a ... thingy of some sort
18:43:22 <Vorpal> FING, SOCK and FILE are all fingerprints
18:43:28 <Vorpal> (same goes for whatever other ones it uses)
18:43:44 <Vorpal> Sgeo, FING is however for reassigning the assignment of letters for fingerprints
18:43:52 <Vorpal> such that you move an instruction from C to S or whatever
18:44:02 <Vorpal> Sgeo, useful when multiple fingerprints collide
18:44:04 <Atomix> hmm I took a look at the source you gave me - ive never seen any esolangs before. So what is the whole purpose of creating these languages, where does the fun come in?
18:45:05 <fizzie> Vorpal: Anyway, the tomeviewer-extracted rom worked; don't have an operating system handy, though. IIRC they did something to the OS 9.2 included in OS X's "classic support" so that it couldn't be run on "real" (or emulated) macs, only within OS X's Classic. Will have to wonder about that later.
18:45:06 <Vorpal> Atomix, I guess that is hard to explain if you don't get it. Some people (like we) just find inventing, coding in or implementing such languages fun
18:45:27 <Vorpal> Atomix, why does someone who find skiing fun find it fun
18:45:34 <Vorpal> I don't know the answer
18:45:51 <alise> <fizzie> Vorpal: Craziest things ever. I added a bit more memory (8 → 64) to the BasiliskII (so that it can run iCab -- was thinking of maybe downloading it directly there), and for some reason now extracting tomeviewer.sit worked. Or at least the file now has a proper icon. ;; icab yay!
18:46:14 <Vorpal> alise, isn't icab shareware? I seem to remember it refused to run after x days
18:46:38 <alise> Vorpal: it's free now at least i think
18:46:49 <alise> oh, twitter fungot
18:46:49 <fungot> alise: the president of shinra soldiers around here. better get some tea!
18:46:54 <alise> you're rewriting it in forth? XD
18:46:55 <Sgeo> Personally, I don't particularly enjoy coding in esolangs, but do enjoy thinking about them, and if I ever get the courage, maybe making one at some point
18:47:11 <alise> i was talking to fizzie
18:47:20 <alise> Vorpal: what's that /sys thing i need to echo again?
18:47:22 <Vorpal> alise, yes but where did he say he was doing that
18:47:25 <alise> is it required for basilisk ii?
18:47:27 <alise> Vorpal: his git repo
18:47:40 <Vorpal> alise, echo 0 > /proc/sys/vm/mmap<tab>
18:47:43 <Vorpal> where tab is literal one
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18:47:48 <Vorpal> there is just one completion
18:47:55 <Vorpal> alise, I don't remember the exact name
18:47:55 <alise> does basilisk II need it or just SS?
18:48:05 <fungot> fizzie: an' for marlene......!
18:48:11 <Vorpal> alise, or basiliskII in *real* addressing mode
18:48:18 <alise> I think it's in real. Not sure.
18:48:31 <Vorpal> alise, it won't boot if it needs it
18:48:41 <Atomix> What is the meaning of life?
18:48:50 <alise> Atomix: not 42, that's the answer to life, the universe and everything
18:48:52 <alise> not the meaning of life
18:48:56 <Vorpal> Atomix, no idea, but if you generalise that question it is 42
18:49:03 <alise> Vorpal: oh goody, you can specify options on the command line
18:49:12 <alise> you don't appear to be able to save config from the GUI though
18:49:14 <Vorpal> alise, config file is better probably
18:49:21 <Vorpal> you can config from gui
18:49:26 <alise> but it doesn't persist
18:49:28 <Vorpal> alise, sure you have gtk -dev packages installed?
18:49:31 <alise> so you have to do:
18:49:33 <alise> read/write configuration from/to FILE
18:49:35 <Atomix> Thats not correct, 42 is the answer to the ultimate question of life
18:49:35 <Vorpal> alise, oh it needs to start
18:49:39 <alise> Atomix: no it isn't
18:49:46 <Atomix> but what is the ultimate question of life?
18:49:46 <Vorpal> alise, if you close it right away it won't persist iirc
18:49:50 <alise> Vorpal: where does it save?
18:50:10 <alise> Atomix: Mu; the question is "what is the question [that is answered by the answer to life, the universe, and everything]?"
18:50:29 <Sgeo> WHAT DO YOU GET WHEN YOU MULTIPLY SIX BY NINE
18:50:42 <fizzie> ~/.basilisk_ii_prefs is what it created here.
18:50:48 <Atomix> he aint wrong, but anyone can read that on wiki
18:50:51 <Atomix> im asking your opinion
18:50:56 <Sgeo> I'm not sure if there was a "multiply" in there
18:50:59 <alise> Arthur is not one of the Earth natives, so although he contains part of its program, he cannot execute it perfectly.
18:51:13 <alise> It is most likely "What do you get when you multiply six by seven?".
18:51:31 <alise> Of course the literal interpretation is played out in the book.
18:51:37 <Sgeo> *the universe ends and is replaced by something even stranger*
18:51:46 <Atomix> or has happened already
18:51:55 <Atomix> but you are missing my point
18:51:56 <alise> Doesn't mean it can't happen twice.
18:52:06 <Atomix> I aint talking about the book, as i said
18:52:08 <alise> Atomix: If you're actually asking what I think the meaning of life is, I think it has no meaning.
18:52:09 <Atomix> im asking your opinion
18:52:20 <Sgeo> For "meaning of life?"
18:52:29 <alise> Of course it's "worth" doing some things, but that's not because of any inherent meaning to life.
18:52:35 <alise> It just sort of happens.
18:52:47 <Sgeo> I don't think there is an extrinsically assigned meaning. If we want a meaning of life, we have to make a meaning ourselves
18:53:01 <alise> And the universe ends up changing. Some life is involved in all that big mix-up.
18:53:06 <alise> Nothing particular.
18:53:12 <Atomix> so you are saying we have to make our brains think that there is a purpose to life, even though in reality there isnt one?
18:53:28 <alise> I disagree with that.
18:53:35 * Sgeo isn't sure how religious stuff entered this discussion
18:53:38 <alise> I think we have the power to decide what meaning our own life has, as it is our own.
18:53:54 <Sgeo> We don't )have_ to make our brains think there is a purpose to life, unless we want a purpose to life
18:54:03 <alise> Life, itself, I think we must accept has no meaning. But I don't think that's a negative thing; that's a very human-centric view of things, that having no inherent meaning is a bad thing.
18:54:04 <Atomix> thats the same as convicing ourselves of somekind of purpose
18:54:17 <alise> It's merely deciding a subjective set of values which we strive for.
18:54:42 <Atomix> so what happens when you run of those values?
18:54:56 <alise> <Atomix> so what happens when you run of those values?
18:55:01 <alise> Please restate this in a comprehensible manner.
18:55:04 <alise> I'm not sure what you are trying to say.
18:55:12 <Sgeo> I think Atomix is asking what happens when you complete your self-assigned purpose
18:55:26 <Atomix> you stated yourself, that we decide on a subjective set of values to strive for
18:55:42 <Atomix> what happens when you run out of them
18:55:45 <Sgeo> Choose another purpose? Choose a purpose that won't run out? Live without a purpose other than having fun?
18:55:48 <Atomix> when you have no more values
18:55:52 <alise> Atomix: Meaningless question.
18:56:05 <alise> An example set of values may be utilitarianism: maximise the happiness of all sentient beings.
18:56:10 <alise> There is no way to "run out" of utilitarianism.
18:56:18 <Gregor> I had the values 3, 7 and 12.
18:56:24 <Gregor> I am now out of values.
18:56:45 <Atomix> but the theory is missing its purpose - sooner or later one will ask himself/herself why to do such a thing? (as you said, maximise the happiness of all sentient beings)
18:56:47 <alise> Atomix: but really I think this is sort of a philosophical tar pit
18:57:00 <alise> we're trying to give meanings to questions that we've decided have no meaning just because we feel a need to answer them
18:57:16 <alise> Atomix: Why? Because it's arbitrary.
18:57:26 <alise> Yes, it cannot be justified in the end, just like axioms in a logical system can't be justified.
18:57:40 <alise> But I think you can reject "kill everyone" for the same reasons you can reject "A and not A".
18:58:10 <Sgeo> That assumes that there's some objective way to order values
18:58:20 <alise> Nothing I said does.
18:58:42 <alise> http://download.info.apple.com/Apple_Support_Area/Apple_Software_Updates/English-North_American/Macintosh/System/Older_System/System_7.5_Version_7.5.3/ ;; anyone know how to change these into one disk image?
18:58:49 <alise> or should i not bother?
18:58:51 <Atomix> alise, what is that YOU strive for in your life?
18:59:10 <alise> Atomix: An arbitrary, hodge-podge set of basically inconsistent values. Like all humans.
18:59:34 <alise> I mess around, I occasionally do productive stuff, I try to be nice to people who are nice and not stupid...
18:59:42 <alise> But I don't consciously analyse my every action.
18:59:47 <alise> If you do, you probably need to relax a bit.
19:01:07 <alise> fizzie: where's the ROM on oldos?
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19:02:42 <Phantom_Hoover> The psychiatrists obviously knew the truth about Earth; that's why they destroyed it.
19:03:01 <Phantom_Hoover> But then surely they would have known about the Golgafrinchian contamination?
19:03:05 <Sgeo> I could swear I've seen that hypothesis somewh.. oh
19:03:40 <alise> Attempting to find consistency in H2G2: one of the most laughable activities in the galaxy.
19:03:44 * Sgeo 's memory comes back to him
19:04:14 <Sgeo> We can solve the halting problem!
19:04:48 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
19:05:24 <alise> fizzie: you can just dd some zeroes to a file and use that as the disk, right?
19:05:29 <alise> and let the installer format it
19:06:08 * Sgeo once tried to disprove God by wondering if Chaitin's constant was not just uncomputable, but unknowable
19:06:44 <alise> you can't disprove god
19:06:47 <alise> it's stupid to try
19:06:57 <alise> Sgeo: it's not unknowable i don't think
19:07:01 <alise> people have computed the first digits for some languages
19:07:12 <alise> just like the BB function is uncomputable
19:07:15 <alise> but you can work it out manually
19:07:31 <Sgeo> I had a bit of a mistaken idea regarding turing machines and interactions with input
19:08:04 <alise> for instance the first four bits of the halting probability of either binary lambda calculus or binary combinator logic (I forget which) are .0001
19:08:29 <alise> so the probability that a random program in those halts is >= 0.0625
19:08:33 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: busy beaver
19:10:00 <alise> Caught SIGSEGV at address 0x7fac25b6a708 [IP=0x7fac284109e3]
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19:19:40 <alise> thing = string | list of (thing | (string, thing))
19:20:23 <Sgeo> That looks too much like OCaml except for the "of"
19:20:31 <Phantom_Hoover> The halting problem is at \Delta^0_2 in the arithmetical hierarchy.
19:20:33 <Sgeo> Or wait, is "of" part of OCaml types?
19:20:52 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Death and pain.
19:21:56 <Sgeo> Igors didn't believe in Things Man Was Not Meant To Know
19:22:22 <Sgeo> But Igor firmly believed that there were some things a man was not meant to know, such as what it felt like to have every ...
19:22:25 <Sgeo> I forgot the rest
19:23:32 <Phantom_Hoover> I think it was after the Life self-replicator was built.
19:24:11 <Sgeo> There's a Life self-replicator?
19:24:15 <Sgeo> (j/k, I remember)
19:25:19 * Sgeo vaguely wonders what alise thinks of Linux Mint
19:25:24 -!- ais523 has joined.
19:25:36 <alise> Sgeo: "pointless", basically
19:26:22 <alise> how can this startup disk not have disk copy? sheesh
19:26:30 <alise> anyone know of any tools to process hfv on linux :)
19:28:50 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Quite well.
19:28:54 <alise> there, qusetion deflected
19:28:58 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I haven't decided yet
19:28:59 <alise> you owe me one, ais523
19:29:04 <ais523> I have a vague idea, but it keeps changing
19:29:26 <ais523> eventually, Phantom_Hoover will figure out that it's pointless to ask people questions they don't know the answer to
19:29:30 <ais523> either you'll get "I don't know", or a lie
19:29:34 <ais523> either way the answer is useless
19:29:46 <alise> ais523: preliminary KDE 4.5 review: ok, so I could use it, but why would I want to when I can just use GNOME instead?
19:29:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, but I'm trying to work out which bits you don't know.
19:29:54 <alise> there's no reason not to
19:30:07 <ais523> it's not completely broken like it used to be, then?
19:30:31 <ais523> I remember I used 4.1 for a while because there was something really wrong with GNOME then, but I can't remember what it is
19:30:31 <alise> it's just that the little complexities it loves to have make some stuff quite annoying
19:30:44 <alise> whereas GNOME's more conservative attitude helps here
19:31:07 <ais523> the Internet seems to have more people who hate Gnome than who hate KDE, for some reason
19:31:24 <alise> well, it's polarising. it used to be a bit more opinionated than it is now, i think.
19:31:39 <alise> also, more non-control freaks are using linux now
19:31:39 <ais523> meanwhile, Esolang spam is getting weirder and weirder
19:31:46 <alise> whereas you basically had to be a control freak to get it to work in the past
19:31:49 -!- Killerkid has joined.
19:31:51 <ais523> a spambot went and pasted in a dictionary definition of "trustworthy"
19:32:00 <alise> Spammers: very trustworthy.
19:32:11 <ais523> on two different pages, both of which were spambot names
19:32:26 <ais523> the summary was "Test post"
19:32:50 * alise modifies a JFS filesystem from Macintosh System Software 7.5.5
19:33:02 <alise> I hope it doesn't try and create any resource forks.
19:33:16 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: yes, and I do occasionally
19:33:35 <ais523> but it's not worth it unless they're under heavy spambot attack, normally spambots attack a page once then move on
19:33:36 -!- Atomix has left (?).
19:33:49 <ais523> also, I more commonly semisalt (which allows registered users to make a page, but bars anons)
19:34:10 * alise installs StuffIt Expander onto a Unix filesystem
19:34:15 <alise> this will surely work
19:35:10 <alise> [ehird@dinky StuffIt Expander� 5.5]$ ls
19:35:10 <alise> Icon? Read Us First! StuffIt Expander?
19:35:41 <ais523> wow, I have 354 log actions on Esolang
19:36:21 <alise> what's the log again? bans etc.?
19:36:40 <ais523> deletions, bans, pagemoves
19:36:54 <ais523> and something else important I'm forgetting
19:37:06 <alise> [ehird@dinky mac]$ dd if=/dev/zero of=disk.hfv bs=1 count=104857600
19:37:11 <alise> i have a feeling this could go quicker
19:37:32 <ais523> is there a reason to do it one byte at a time?
19:37:44 <alise> yes, i'm too lazy to divide the count
19:37:47 <ais523> also, why is dd's syntax unlike every other program on Unix?
19:37:53 <alise> because it predates unix
19:37:59 <ais523> alise: ah, that makes sense
19:38:16 <alise> "is most likely inspired from DD found in IBM JCL, and the command's syntax is meant to be reminiscent of this"
19:38:31 <alise> iirc on plan 9 dd has a unixy syntax :P
19:39:43 <alise> [ehird@dinky mac]$ dd if=/dev/zero of=disk.hfv bs=8192 count=12800
19:39:43 <alise> 12800+0 records in
19:39:44 <alise> 12800+0 records out
19:39:44 <alise> 104857600 bytes (105 MB) copied, 0.225616 s, 465 MB/s
19:40:14 <ais523> even if you're going to use metric megabytes, you're rounding upwards, dd
19:40:39 <ais523> hmm, I suppose metric megabytes /are/ standard for hard drives...
19:40:41 <alise> system 7.6 is mine! mwahahaha
19:41:01 <alise> thank god for illegal downloads, eh.
19:41:15 <alise> mac os 7.6 install folder ftw
19:41:46 <alise> To duplicate a disk partition as a disk image file on a remote machine over a secure ssh connection:
19:41:46 <alise> dd if=/dev/sdb2 | ssh user@host "dd of=/home/user/partition.image"
19:41:48 <alise> useless use of dd award
19:41:54 <Gregor> ais523: At least de facto standard.
19:42:07 <alise> they're the right standard too, really
19:42:09 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:42:20 <alise> binary only makes sense for SSDs where it's actually based on powers of two
19:42:24 -!- MizardX has joined.
19:42:25 <alise> decimal is consistent with the rest of the world
19:42:40 <Gregor> The rest of the world sucks.
19:42:43 <Gregor> Screw the rest of the world.
19:43:15 <alise> http://imgur.com/2Rana.png
19:43:19 <alise> Mac OS 7.6 installer. Discus.
19:43:21 <ais523> this is why I like the whole MiB syntax even though everyone else seems ot hate it
19:43:30 <ais523> it should generalise to non-computer units too, though
19:43:32 <alise> ais523: I like it.
19:43:40 <alise> ais523: although KiB is wrong; it should be kiB, for SI-consistency.
19:43:55 <alise> hey, http://i.imgur.com/2Rana.png has antialiased text
19:43:55 * Sgeo hits alise with a frisbee
19:43:58 <alise> a first for the Mac OS?
19:43:58 <ais523> perhaps we should use kim for distances
19:44:09 <ais523> alise: is it /good/ antialiasing
19:44:22 <pikhq> I propose a new, AMERICAN unit of measuring data!
19:44:23 <alise> ais523: Uhh, it probably looked good on the CRTs of the time. i.imgur.com/2Rana.png
19:44:31 <alise> ais523: The font isn't exactly the best on-screen one, anyway.
19:44:41 <alise> Too tall and thin, with subtle serifs.
19:44:47 <alise> Especially not at /those/ resolutions.
19:44:59 <alise> Still, the actual antialiasing is acceptable.
19:45:34 <alise> "Please insert the disk: Mac OS 7.6".
19:46:07 <pikhq> The lib. There shall be 9 bits to the lib. And 36 libs to the bok. From there, well. Who needs more than a few boks anyways?
19:46:10 <ais523> what's Markdown's equivalent to MediaWiki's :
19:46:40 <alise> ais523: what does that do?
19:46:54 <ais523> <dd> tag, but it's normally used for indenting generally
19:47:10 <ais523> hmm, that should probably work
19:50:53 <ais523> at least not on gitorious
19:51:11 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, IIRC logs also record patrolling, although the MediaWiki used might be too old for that.
19:51:46 <ais523> it's new enough but has patrolling turned off
19:52:07 <ais523> it's only really useful on wikis so large that one person can't check all edits/pages themself
19:52:18 <ais523> whereas on Esolang, multiple people check each edit
19:52:23 -!- wareya has joined.
19:54:55 <alise> how do i make this owrk
19:54:55 <Sgeo> "Perl is a general purpose language. It's also known to be the only widespread use obfuscated language."
19:55:05 -!- kar8nga has joined.
19:58:16 <Sgeo> IDENTIFICATION DIVISION.
19:59:17 <Sgeo> PROGRAM-ID. SGEOLOVESCOBOL.
20:00:24 <alise> ais523: wow, I'm actually installing Gnash
20:00:48 <Sgeo> Doesn't Gnash suck, or something?
20:00:56 <Sgeo> Time to put drops in my ears
20:05:16 <fizzie> alise: If you're making a zero-image with dd, it's worth a thought to "dd if=/dev/zero of=disk.hfv bs=1 count=0 seek=104857600", to make a sparse file. For a 100-meg image it probaly doesn't much matter, though.
20:06:25 <alise> last resort since i can't get youtube working
20:06:27 <alise> fizzie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UTZTPCj7xI
20:06:38 <alise> what actions are taken in this video to install 7.6.1? :P
20:08:25 -!- Gregor has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
20:08:58 <fizzie> Hrrm, that's a six-minute video to summarize.
20:09:28 <alise> I think most of it is the actual installation
20:09:45 <alise> I only care about what I have to click to get the installer to not say "Insert the 7.6 disk, foo" when I run it from another disk.
20:12:27 <fizzie> Well, uh... it starts with "Apple Macintosh CD" on the desktop, then it auto-initializes the HD (I think the system will automatically ask it when your .hfv file is just zeros), after that it just runs the "Install Mac^{TM} OS" thing in the middle of "Apple Macintosh CD".
20:14:20 <alise> fizzie: So it doesn't run "Installer"?
20:14:38 <fizzie> I don't see an "Installer" there.
20:14:55 <alise> So they must have copied the disk images to a disk somehow. But how?! Disk Copy says the .image files are invalid...
20:15:32 <alise> Come to think of it, what IS an .image?
20:15:35 <fizzie> http://p.zem.fi/ltr0 -- that's him starting the thing.
20:15:39 <alise> Something to be dd'd?
20:16:25 <fizzie> 7.5.5 is the only thing I've installed in BasiliskII, so don't know about 7.6's steps.
20:16:38 <alise> Install 1\200\200\200\200\200\200\200\200\200\200\200\200\200\200\200\20
20:16:41 <alise> is how Install 1.image starts.
20:17:31 <alise> they're virtual disk image things
20:20:28 -!- Gregor has joined.
20:21:17 <alise> they're separate disks :D
20:22:23 <alise> fuck yeah 19 mounted disks
20:24:14 <fizzie> All the cool kids are doing it! I just installed OS 9.2 on the iBook. (If you can call installing OS X's "classic support" with the software recovery thing, that.)
20:24:28 <Vorpal> <alise> ais523: Uhh, it probably looked good on the CRTs of the time. i.imgur.com/2Rana.png <-- looks pre-rendered compared to the button below
20:25:24 <alise> it seems that old Mac OS has a limit to the number of mounted disks at one time
20:25:27 <alise> either that or basilisk ii does
20:25:31 <Vorpal> alise, OS 9 (probably 8 too?) had quite nice grayscale antialias
20:25:43 <alise> i think that was new in 9
20:25:56 <Vorpal> alise, that is a good reason to prefer 9 over 8 then
20:26:19 <Vorpal> alise, btw why were you asking me about sheepshaver? weren't you playing around with it this spring?
20:26:29 <Vorpal> or was that OS 9 on real mac?
20:26:47 <alise> i had os 8 or 9 on a real mac (I forget which) recently, yes
20:26:53 <alise> i tried sheepshaver a long while ago
20:26:59 <alise> recently = a year ago or so
20:27:07 <alise> Vorpal: gahh this sucks so much
20:27:11 <alise> limited mounted things
20:28:44 <alise> Vorpal: vMac made this a lot easier ...
20:28:47 <alise> you could swap disks at runtime
20:36:29 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: he says, in #esoteric
20:38:31 <Sgeo> Website requires cpalead.com to be fully functional
20:40:32 <Sgeo> Also, I loathe explorer
20:44:21 <alise> Mac OS 7.6.toast 250 Mb
20:44:24 <alise> Toast? Seriously?!
20:45:06 <pikhq> Guess what it runs on.
20:45:50 <alise> roxio toast is just a silly old mac burner
20:45:54 <alise> useless file format for me though
20:45:59 <alise> i need an .iso i think, not sure
20:46:52 <alise> Details for file extension: TOAST - Toast CD Image File (Sonic Solutions) - Toast 6 runs on Mac OS X only. This is basically an .ISO file.
20:47:11 <alise> pikhq: question: is /dev/cdrom the same format as an .iso?
20:47:18 <alise> that is, can I supply a foo.iso where ordinarily I would pass /dev/cdrom?
20:49:59 -!- alise_ has joined.
20:53:01 -!- alise has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
20:55:38 <pikhq> Fucking hell... A quarter of high school students drop out of high school in the US.
20:57:04 <alise_> as opposed to high school students dropping out of middle school
20:57:25 <Gregor> And a quarter of those who don't drop out pass in spite of being high in school.
20:57:40 <pikhq> alise_: The thing is, even a complete idiot can graduate from a US high school.
20:58:13 <pikhq> I got a B average through high school and I did hardly *anything* for much of it.
21:00:09 -!- Flonk has joined.
21:01:43 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Correctly answering multiple choice questions is hardly a "sign of genius".
21:04:00 -!- tombom has joined.
21:04:14 <alise_> how do you unpack a .sit_.bin in mac os >_>
21:04:30 -!- kitabuki has joined.
21:05:44 <Vorpal> <alise> Vorpal: vMac made this a lot easier ...
21:05:44 <Vorpal> <alise> you could swap disks at runtime <-- hm
21:06:05 <Vorpal> alise_, I think you can have several with basilisk and such
21:06:17 <Vorpal> alise_, anyway I managed to install it from a set of floppies from apple
21:06:28 <alise_> Vorpal: yes, i have a set of floppies (19 + one installer)
21:06:36 <alise_> unfortunately when i mount them all, my installation disk is not mounted.
21:06:52 <Vorpal> alise_, I think I put the floppy images on a hfs partition then mounted them with disk copy?
21:07:07 <alise_> ahahahaha, unfortunately disk copy doesn't want to mount these.
21:07:11 <alise_> it says they're BAD AND WRONG AND EVIL
21:07:14 -!- kitabuki has quit (Client Quit).
21:08:12 <Vorpal> alise_, mine were *.img I think
21:08:28 <Vorpal> alise_, I used 7.5.5 thingy from apple
21:08:36 <Vorpal> alise_, not from macintoshgarden
21:08:40 <alise_> [[SwedeBear I download the file and moved the .zip into Basilisk II and used StuffIt to unzip it, up to that point everything works good. I now have to files: Apple Mac OS 7.6 CD.image and _Apple Mac OS 7.6 CD.image, neither mounts in ShrinkWrap or StuffIt. What do I have to do to make it work inside OS 7.5.5?]] i wish this file was still there sigh
21:09:16 <Vorpal> alise_, the _ one is probably a resource fork
21:09:20 <alise_> shit either doesn't work or is no longer on the net
21:09:23 <alise_> it was a quote from a forum
21:09:26 <alise_> demonstrating that it has an .image
21:09:30 <alise_> (which is what I need)
21:09:48 <Vorpal> alise_, I have an OS 9 CD image. And I think I have the set of floppy images I used somewhere too
21:09:54 <alise_> There are more seeders now for the Apple Legacy Software Recovery CD torrent, so speeds have probably picked up.
21:09:54 <alise_> For anyone else interested in getting this without bothering with the torrent, here's a direct download:
21:09:54 <alise_> http://www.megaupload.com/?d=TF755K5F
21:10:14 <alise_> Vorpal: 7.6(.1) is all i care about :P
21:10:16 <alise_> well, apart from system 6
21:10:18 <alise_> but that's trivially obtained
21:10:31 <alise_> and still possibly the most usable OS ever released ;)
21:10:47 <Vorpal> alise_, OS 9 has very nice AA though :P
21:10:57 <alise_> *something that expresses the intent of ;) without being the creepy paedophile smiley (that is, ";)")
21:11:31 <alise_> something i don't like about old Macintosh operating systems is that you have to hold the mouse button down to keep a menu open
21:11:40 <alise_> I get the whole non-modality thing and all, but it gives me carpal tunnel
21:12:33 <Vorpal> alise_, how is ";)" a "creepy paedophile smiley"?
21:12:41 <alise_> that's what it looks like
21:12:47 <alise_> anyone saying ;) instantly seems reepy
21:12:47 <Vorpal> alise_, you don't have to hold it down in OS 9
21:13:03 <Vorpal> alise_, no that is a wink with the eye
21:13:07 <alise_> oh come on, everyone agrees os 9 was the worst classic mac os
21:13:17 <alise_> i know that ;) is a wink. but it's creepy. to everyone. trust me
21:13:28 <Vorpal> alise_, no it isn't. it's just you
21:13:32 <alise_> Vorpal: that is merely because you are nostalgic and remember it
21:13:39 <alise_> and no, this isn't just my opinion
21:13:58 <alise_> i have seen it expressed a great many times, a lot in this channel
21:14:09 <Vorpal> alise_, considering the population of earth very very few specific opinions will be unique
21:14:33 <alise_> I don't use retarded loopholes like you do, so no need to worry about that.
21:14:43 <alise_> 3% [> ] 21,423,692 231K/s eta 54m 47s
21:14:45 <alise_> That should go faster.
21:14:50 <alise_> I would like that to go faster. Go faster, that.
21:14:59 <Vorpal> alise_, is that the megaupload url?
21:15:09 <alise_> Vorpal: Yes. It's a ton of Mac OSes; I want it for 7.6.1.
21:15:25 <Vorpal> alise_, downloading that too: 9 minutes remaining, 162 of 578 MB (833 KB/sec)
21:15:40 <Vorpal> alise_, no I don't have premium account
21:15:42 <alise_> Vorpal: But my connection gets those speeds!
21:15:46 <alise_> Just not on this download.
21:15:55 <alise_> I don't suppose you're willing to mirror that somewhere more European?
21:16:27 <Vorpal> alise_, the closest server I have where I could put it is in LA, CA, US
21:16:41 <Vorpal> alise_, I would be willing to use this to seed the torrent however
21:16:49 <Vorpal> alise_, if you /msg me details of it
21:17:09 <alise_> (btw, Mac OS 8 < 8.5 == Mac OS 7.7, pretty much)
21:17:22 <Vorpal> alise_, I assume you will seed to at least a 1.5 ratio without interruptions (except for computer being shut down)
21:17:32 <alise_> Vorpal: what's your upload?
21:17:42 <Vorpal> alise_, about 80 KiB/s
21:17:51 <alise_> i'm downloading at 300 KiB/s
21:18:04 <alise_> but still more than 80
21:18:06 <Vorpal> alise_, 6 minutes remaining
21:18:33 <Vorpal> it exceeds the theoretical limit
21:18:47 <alise_> woo, the torrent is 404'd.
21:18:57 <Vorpal> it shouldn't be possible to get *sustained* speeds above 800 KB/s
21:19:02 <Vorpal> on 8 megabit/second down
21:19:12 <alise_> Vorpal: um, it's 1024 KiB/s
21:19:15 <Vorpal> sure peeks might be due to buffering or ATM transfer mode or such
21:19:24 <Vorpal> alise_, yes but with overhead...
21:19:39 <alise_> Vorpal: probably not 224 bytes of overhead.
21:20:10 <Vorpal> alise_, other traffic. I'm youtube-dling at 130 KB/s in another tab
21:20:34 <alise_> Vorpal: btw, you may want to "mplayer $(youtube-dl -b -g ...url...)" to watch stuff in real time
21:20:36 <alise_> maybe with a -cache option
21:20:40 <alise_> rather than waiting for the download
21:20:51 <Vorpal> alise_, but then I noticed that sometimes I get burst up speeds in excess of 2 MB/s. And the bursts are often lasts several seconds
21:21:05 <Vorpal> then it "calms down" to the normal speed
21:21:44 <Vorpal> alise_, youtube-dl blah & wait until it says about 20 % vlc blah
21:22:04 <alise_> you do realise vlc can do youtube natively?
21:22:13 <Vorpal> alise_, yes I know it never works
21:22:13 <alise_> anyway, point is you don't have to do the waiting manually
21:22:33 <alise_> assuming you use something which can actually play urls without being retarded
21:22:42 <Vorpal> alise_, you know what happens when I don't? It takes too long to download
21:23:23 <Vorpal> I measured that for 10 minute HD I need to wait until 20-25% until I can start watching if I don't want to end up stalling around 80% or 90%
21:24:02 <Vorpal> alise_, meh, this works and I often don't want to watch it right away anyway
21:24:26 * alise_ wonders how fast you can virtualise x86 code on x86 (i.e. running on the CPU natively for the most part, but unable to affect anything outside without going through the virtualising software)
21:24:45 <Vorpal> alise_, usually when I do want to watch right away it is periodicvideos or sixtysymbols, and then I queue several downloads and start the first after 20%
21:24:48 <alise_> why? nanokernel OS that runs all processes under this and just lets them message-pass :D
21:24:49 <Vorpal> no stall later on then
21:24:58 <Vorpal> alise_, download done!
21:25:17 <alise_> 23% [========> ] 141,469,942 180K/s eta 41m 27s f
21:25:31 <alise_> Vorpal: let's race it against airmailnet
21:25:50 <Vorpal> alise_, anyway do you have a checksum for it?
21:25:53 <alise_> (delegates to wheelsnet and sneakernet at both endpoints)
21:26:13 <alise_> Vorpal: i.e. send it to me in the post :P
21:26:31 <Vorpal> alise_, hah that would take longer
21:27:12 <Vorpal> $ file Apple_Legacy_CD.iso
21:27:12 <Vorpal> Apple_Legacy_CD.iso: data
21:27:17 <Vorpal> alise_, that doesn't look good at all
21:27:39 <alise_> Vorpal: try s!/dev/cdrom!that! in basilisk ii prefs
21:27:43 <alise_> dear keyboard: please let this key reattach
21:27:56 <Vorpal> alise_, I will try to put it in the GUI :P
21:28:17 <Vorpal> alise_, just sending it to the right computer over sshfs
21:28:38 <alise_> yes, to protect that secret, secret iso file
21:29:03 <Vorpal> alise_, no, because I don't have nfs set up to laptop and I already had sshfs mounted
21:29:08 <ais523> alise_: to be fair, ssh tends to be faster
21:29:12 <Vorpal> I use sshfs because it is easy
21:29:16 <ais523> because it compresses en route
21:29:33 <Vorpal> no need to mess with configs
21:29:39 <Vorpal> and I have that set up anyway
21:31:26 <Vorpal> alise_, I have no /dev/cdrom in that prefs file
21:31:39 <alise_> maybe it's in the SCSI section
21:31:47 <Vorpal> what format is the line
21:32:17 <Vorpal> alise_, ah it is cdrom <path>
21:32:20 <Vorpal> and it seems to boot from it
21:32:33 <alise_> Vorpal: yeah, it'll have the installers
21:32:52 <Vorpal> alise_, there is a folder on the CD
21:33:02 <Vorpal> and surely you know what it is!
21:33:04 <alise_> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/76/Apple_Newton_and_iPhone.jpg
21:33:28 <Vorpal> alise_, well, the newton had a larger screen
21:33:45 <Vorpal> alise_, and is that a vertical antenna at the top?
21:34:35 <alise_> 44% [================> ] 269,363,186 332K/s eta 27m 25s f
21:34:50 <Vorpal> alise_, System 1.0, 2.0.1, 5.0, 5.1, ...
21:34:51 -!- derdon has joined.
21:35:01 <Vorpal> what happened to 2.0, 3.* and 4.*?
21:35:11 <alise_> Vorpal: i forget, but there was no 2 and 3
21:35:33 <Vorpal> alise_, there is up to 8.1 btw
21:35:39 <alise_> 1, 2, 3 and 4 were basically identical
21:35:52 <alise_> system software 2.01 = system 4.0 or 4.1
21:36:08 <alise_> system software version =/= system evrsion =/= finder version
21:36:26 <Vorpal> Apple SW A-D, E-M and N-Z
21:36:34 <Vorpal> alise_, is there a *non*-legacy cd too?
21:36:59 <alise_> Vorpal: i dunno, this is 68k
21:37:05 <alise_> so for ppc... i don't know
21:37:08 <Vorpal> alise_, 8.1 came for 68k?
21:37:14 <alise_> 8.5 was the first ppc-only version
21:37:19 <alise_> Vorpal: 8.1 is nothing like 8.5
21:37:29 <alise_> 8 <= version < 8.5 is more like Mac OS 7.6
21:37:31 <Vorpal> alise_, didn't 8.1 use the grayish theme?
21:37:33 <alise_> than Mac OS 8 as you know it
21:37:50 <alise_> it's basically the next major release of 7
21:37:57 <alise_> 8.5 is when it started on the path towards 9
21:38:02 <alise_> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8a/MacOS81_screenshot.png
21:38:19 <alise_> Emate 300! It's like a Newton but NOT!
21:38:21 <Vorpal> alise_, there is god damn Lisa stuff on there
21:39:01 <Vorpal> says so in the dir name yes
21:39:18 <Vorpal> Mac OS Runtime for Java 1.5.1
21:39:29 <Vorpal> MacTCP Token Ring Extension haha
21:39:36 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:39:51 <alise_> one token ring to rule them all...
21:39:58 -!- tombom has joined.
21:40:10 <Vorpal> alise_, I can't find MPW though
21:40:26 <alise_> i think it is just OS software.
21:40:59 <Vorpal> there is colorsync and quicktime too
21:41:20 <Vorpal> and peripheral drivers
21:41:50 <Vorpal> alise_, newton seems to have had stylewriter drivers
21:42:01 <Vorpal> alise_, I wonder if you could hook up a printer to an iphone?
21:43:28 <alise_> also perhaps bluetooth, i think ipad does bluetooth at least since it has the keyboard
21:43:34 <alise_> don't think the iphone does though
21:43:43 <alise_> nope, it has bluetooth
21:43:48 <alise_> although apparently it's a bit rubbish
21:43:57 <alise_> 89% [=================================> ] 540,800,200 837K/s eta 3m 47s f
21:44:25 <Vorpal> alise_, what about it?
21:44:29 <Vorpal> alise_, I'm already done :P
21:44:37 <alise_> i have superiorised your speed
21:45:06 <Vorpal> alise_, I said I got 873 KB/s max, and near the end I got 860 KB/s sustained
21:45:25 <alise_> but you said that was impossible
21:45:28 <alise_> i am accentuating the unpossible
21:46:01 <Vorpal> alise_, well I think I sometimes get more bw than I pay for :P
21:46:59 <Vorpal> btw why does both's font looks as slightly less ugly Comic sans? <alise_> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/76/Apple_Newton_and_iPhone.jpg
21:47:50 <alise_> lol @ those apples background
21:48:11 <alise_> Vorpal: because newton used such a font for note taking
21:48:22 <alise_> and the iphone uses Marker Felt for Notes, which irritates EVERYONE
21:48:22 -!- Vegabondmx has joined.
21:48:30 <alise_> (John Gruber actually fiddled around with system files just to get it to use something else)
21:48:31 <Vorpal> alise_, yes I noticed, also you get image corruption when you open a second-level dir with a large window and then drags that window about
21:48:39 <Vorpal> screen corruption on desktop
21:48:42 <alise_> Vorpal: how big is your screen?
21:49:10 <alise_> i like the statistics it gives you for untranslated instructions
21:49:15 <alise_> 000: a975 1545452 ILLEGAL
21:49:15 <alise_> 002: a822 278293 ILLEGAL
21:49:15 <alise_> 003: a873 244811 ILLEGAL
21:49:16 <alise_> 004: a88f 231497 ILLEGAL
21:49:18 <alise_> so many illegal opcodes
21:49:26 <alise_> Vorpal: yeah, uh, you can't really expect stability with a non-standard res.
21:49:35 <Vorpal> alise_, yes that is only with JIT and JIT is somewhat buggy
21:49:40 <alise_> 512x384 is safe. everything else is hit-and-miss
21:49:46 <Vorpal> alise_, well... that is too small
21:49:54 <alise_> it's what you had back in the day
21:49:58 <Vorpal> alise_, without JIT some old games work
21:50:05 <Vorpal> with it they fail with illegal instruction
21:50:12 <alise_> ohh the iso is so nicely organised :3
21:50:20 <Vorpal> alise_, yes now to find a PPC one
21:50:25 <alise_> no 68k is my love forever
21:50:30 <alise_> lovely little architecture
21:51:10 * alise_ installs OSS to get sound working
21:52:04 <Vorpal> alise_, where did you find the legacy software recovery cd?
21:52:16 <alise_> Vorpal: yes, the forums
21:52:17 <alise_> http://www.macintoshgarden.org/forum/ndif-disk-copy-basilisk-ii-system-76-and-headaches
21:52:23 <alise_> after gratuitous amounts of googling
21:53:14 <Vorpal> alise_, http://www.macintoshgarden.org/apps/be-os-macworld-preview-release
21:55:19 <alise_> anyone know how to unload alsa modules?
21:55:41 <Vorpal> http://www.macintoshgarden.org/apps/apple-system-software-recovery-1-dated-1998
21:55:51 <Vorpal> alise_, kill everything using sound first probably
21:56:01 <alise_> wait, it seems to have done it itself
21:56:37 <alise_> going to try rebooting
21:56:50 -!- alise_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:57:19 * pikhq officially has more games than any one person could play. Or want to play, for that matter.
21:59:06 -!- alise has joined.
21:59:13 <alise> Fuck yeah! gnome-volume-control does OSS.
21:59:51 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: I have all the games for: NES, SNES, N64, FDS, GB, GBC, GBA.
22:00:23 <pikhq> 14:56 * pikhq officially has more games than any one person could play. Or want to play, for that matter.
22:00:36 <alise> Wait. EVERY SINGLE N64 game?
22:00:39 <alise> EVERY SINGLE GBA game?
22:00:45 <alise> The latter is simply not possible!
22:01:02 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: In the sense of "every single one that was actually put on a cartridge and sold" (and a superset of that, actually...)
22:01:15 <alise> Vorpal: Do you know how to disable the Unix FS?
22:01:21 <alise> pikhq: How do you have all GBA games.
22:01:26 <Vorpal> alise, why would you want to
22:01:35 <Vorpal> alise, it is very useful to transfer downloaded fs to it
22:01:38 <pikhq> alise: ~/games/emulation/GBA
22:01:38 <alise> ah, setting it to false works
22:01:49 <Vorpal> alise, just pointing it to a subdir not /
22:01:59 <Vorpal> alise, I use ~/mac/shared
22:02:06 <Vorpal> well full path in config
22:02:11 <pikhq> alise: It's a mere 24GB when uncompressed.
22:02:34 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:02:50 <alise> <JIT compiler> : gather statistics on untranslated insns count
22:02:51 <alise> <JIT compiler> : gather statistics on translation time
22:02:53 <alise> Is it possible to disable this?
22:02:54 <Vorpal> pikhq, do you have them legally?
22:03:01 <Vorpal> alise, yes by disabling the JIT :P
22:03:02 <pikhq> Vorpal: Not only no but hell no.
22:03:17 <alise> Vorpal: omg it DOES have A/UX
22:03:35 <alise> Vorpal: i thought you were just saying yay A/UX
22:03:37 <alise> not OMG THIS HAS A/UX.
22:03:40 <Vorpal> alise, it is CD 4 of 4
22:03:45 <alise> this thing is a national treasure
22:03:48 <alise> Vorpal: who cares about the other 3
22:03:49 <alise> they probably suck
22:03:54 <alise> this thing has all anyone could ever want
22:04:02 <Vorpal> alise, first has apple application software, the next two have PPC OS software
22:04:06 <alise> A/UX, it's got what plants crave!
22:04:31 <Vorpal> alise, you could set up an appleshare server!
22:05:20 <alise> is there a way to make a disk appear as a hard disk, not a floppy, to the OS?
22:05:34 <Vorpal> alise, not that I know of. And it doesn't really matter
22:05:41 <alise> except it can't be formatted :)
22:05:55 <Vorpal> alise, so use two images
22:06:01 <Vorpal> one for each partition
22:06:11 <alise> i just meant for wiping
22:06:19 <alise> "Ethernet Interface: eth0"
22:06:28 <pikhq> alise: The sad thing is, most console emulators appear to suck. Especially for more recent systems.
22:06:30 <Vorpal> alise, um? dd if=/dev/zero of=diskimage
22:06:43 <alise> "Cannot open /dev/sheep_net (No such file or directory). Ethernet will not be available."
22:06:49 <Vorpal> alise, don't use that one
22:06:52 <Vorpal> alise, it doesn't work
22:07:00 <alise> "Tunnel MacOS Networking over UDP"
22:07:01 <Vorpal> alise, there is an user space one
22:07:10 <Vorpal> alise, the user space one is the only one that works
22:07:17 <alise> Is that the user space one?
22:07:23 <Vorpal> alise, hm let me check
22:07:53 <alise> does it work out of the box?
22:08:05 <Vorpal> alise, and tunneling probably works but it needs another sheepshaver as the end poiint
22:08:11 <Vorpal> no internet connection iirc
22:08:17 <Vorpal> alise, slirp works out of box for me
22:08:41 <alise> interestingly, it crashes the first time
22:08:43 <alise> but then works after that
22:08:54 <Vorpal> alise, um, probably unrelated
22:09:02 <alise> yeah it happens even for normal stuff with me
22:09:05 <alise> probably jit weirdness
22:09:28 <alise> "System Software by CPU" haha
22:09:52 <alise> all the installers automount
22:10:02 <alise> Vorpal: apple sure took a lot of care with this disk
22:10:11 <alise> everything Just Works :P
22:10:17 <alise> yay installing 7.6.1
22:10:37 <pikhq> alise: Well, yes. It's classic Apple. They prided themselves on that then.
22:10:51 <alise> Vorpal: huh, i get visual distortion here too
22:10:59 <Vorpal> alise, I was not using JIT
22:11:12 <alise> oh well, basilisk II is buggy
22:11:14 <alise> everyone knows that
22:11:24 <Vorpal> alise, I thought you said it was sheepshaver that was :P
22:11:38 <alise> wow, you're right, it loads extensions ludicrously fast
22:11:40 <alise> Vorpal: well yeah. that too
22:11:48 <alise> AIEE the trash is more to the left than the other two icons
22:12:04 <Vorpal> alise, it loads extensions faster than any real mac that ran those OSes even without JIT
22:12:11 <Vorpal> JIT just makes it flicker past
22:12:11 <Gregor> /usr/bin/ld: fatal error: out of file descriptors and couldn't close any
22:12:30 <alise> I'm here to kick ass and close file descriptors, and I'm all out of file descriptors.
22:12:35 <Vorpal> Gregor, how many files is it trying to link at once
22:12:39 <pikhq> Ah, WebKit. Linker abuse.
22:12:52 <alise> "How many files is it trying to link at once?" "Yes."
22:13:01 <alise> a perfectly cromulent response
22:13:17 <pikhq> alise: So I like giving "Yes" additional semantics.
22:13:18 <Vorpal> Gregor, I suggest you put them in a hanful of *.a and use the whole archive option to force include the entire archive (including unreferenced files from outside)
22:13:21 <alise> Iiiiit's iCab time!
22:13:36 <Gregor> Vorpal: I wasn't really planning on linking manually X-P
22:13:55 <alise> iCab 2.9.9. It's got what 68k users crave!
22:14:00 <alise> http://www.icab.de/download.php?os=68k&lang=en
22:14:01 <Gregor> This is with gold. Original ld segfaults.
22:14:07 <alise> Argh does anyone have a copy of Stuffit.
22:14:26 <Vorpal> alise, is it shareware or not?
22:14:46 <alise> Well, not in those days.
22:14:54 <Vorpal> alise, I have stuffit keys btw somewhere
22:15:07 <Vorpal> alise, have quicktime pro key too I think
22:15:47 <alise> stuffit /expander/ is free
22:15:58 <alise> i can copy it off another disk
22:16:18 <Vorpal> alise, I refuse to comment on origin and you are absolutely not welcome to inquire in /msg about a non-existent wide selection of keys for old mac software. :P
22:16:51 <alise> Duuude, your metaphysics is, like, acid, maaan.
22:17:02 <alise> I can't taaaaaake it.
22:17:07 <Vorpal> alise, metaphysics how?
22:17:14 <alise> The, existence, man.
22:18:02 <Gregor> Pfft, it's a mere 1,614 object files.
22:18:24 <alise> Konqueror history: "Clearly it should be ordered by domain."
22:18:47 <alise> "Also, have no way to disable this."
22:19:13 <Sgeo> Sounds GNOMEish
22:19:24 <alise> No, GNOME would have no way to disable it, but it wouldn't sort by damn domain in the first place.
22:19:56 <Vorpal> alise, and if it had a way to disable it, you would have to use gconf to reach it
22:20:09 <Vorpal> alise, there is a balance between zzoishness and gnomishness though
22:20:11 <alise> Yes, but again, it wouldn't do that in the first place. :P
22:20:24 <Vorpal> alise, I think sorting by day then domain is a good idea
22:20:34 <alise> Yeah; Konqueror does it the other way around.
22:20:48 <alise> Or at least, groups visits to a domain from ages ago into the same domain thing, even if it's at the top for most recent.
22:20:53 <alise> Vorpal: GNOME is becoming less and less extreme-GNOMEish each release, anyway.
22:21:04 <alise> And KDE 4 is becoming more... KDE 4. Which is more confusing than anything else.
22:21:19 <alise> At least I could tell what KDE 3 was "all about"; I'm not sure what KDE SC 4's goals are at all.
22:21:35 <alise> I think they're to seem to work like GNOME on the surface, but then ... not work at all underneath.
22:21:43 <Vorpal> alise, actually I seen both directions in GNOME. Like that "make pressing key while hovering menu item change shortcut". Useful. Used to be available in GUI config
22:21:43 <Sgeo> KDE4 is not to be ingested
22:21:47 <Vorpal> nowdays it is gconf only
22:22:01 <pikhq> alise: Makes you wish they had just ported KDE 3 to Qt 4 and called it a day.
22:22:01 <alise> Vorpal: Yeah, although it may be useful it's... really confusing if you trigger it by accident.
22:22:17 <alise> Vorpal: Anyway, overall GNOME is definitely getting better.
22:22:26 <pikhq> Qt 4 is awesome. KDE 3 was awesome. Combine it and you get double-awesome.
22:22:39 <Vorpal> alise, well I find gnome-terminal default key bindings for switching and moving tabs around is just unusable
22:22:44 <Vorpal> I prefer konsole style for that
22:22:49 <alise> KDE 3 wasn't awesome, IMO. But it's more understandable than KDE 4.
22:22:53 <Vorpal> so extremely useful option
22:22:56 <alise> Vorpal: Yeah, but I mean, overall.
22:23:07 <alise> Aladdin Expander, wow, it's not even called Stuffit.
22:23:14 <Vorpal> alise, KDE3 was KDE3. That had both downsides and upsides
22:23:16 <alise> just not the installer filename
22:23:16 <pikhq> alise: Okay, yeah, it wasn't actually awesome, but it was... I dunno. Very much usable.
22:23:24 <alise> Version 5.5 from 1999 (or at least with a copyright date ending 1999)
22:23:30 <pikhq> With just a handful of really stupid things.
22:23:33 <Sgeo> The Ctrl-Alt-A thing in the window manager was awesome
22:23:36 <Sgeo> That still exists, right?
22:23:42 <alise> pikhq: It was /understandable/. You used KDE 3 and you knew exactly what it was aiming for.
22:23:51 <alise> And this might be tolerable for you.
22:23:55 <Vorpal> alise, guess why I was a huge fan of it?
22:24:05 <Vorpal> alise, I don't know where gnome is heading these days really
22:24:10 <alise> KDE SC 4 is implemented better than KDE 3 -- at least, now it is -- but it has no philosophy.
22:24:11 <Vorpal> but in part I suspect I don't like it
22:24:28 <pikhq> alise: I've basically given up on desktop environments by now.
22:24:37 <alise> GNOME is heading for something that Just Works without thinking. Apple is an example of aiming for that and missing.
22:24:39 <pikhq> Though XFCE doesn't seem revolting.
22:24:55 <alise> GNOME has aimed for that for most of its life -- at least since GNOME 2 -- and has missed several times, but appears to be on the right track now.
22:25:01 <Vorpal> pikhq, xfce is quite nice, used it on some live cds for disk stuff
22:25:12 <Vorpal> systemrescuecd is awesome for doing weird partition stuff
22:25:15 <alise> Since it's all open and whatnot, there's less of the corporate pressure that stopped Apple from keeping trying new things until they worked.
22:25:20 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Apple?
22:25:26 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Latest OS X misses by a long mark.
22:25:27 <Vorpal> I always use that when setting up disks
22:25:36 <alise> System Software 6 was very close. But it was limited, so.
22:25:47 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: KDE had more "just works" than GNOME back in the day (TM).
22:26:03 <pikhq> And KDE didn't ever really aim for that...
22:26:11 <alise> pikhq: yeah -- remember that GNOME vs KDE article?
22:26:14 <Vorpal> alise, I think GNOME is partly on the wrong track, because it means I don't really have options to configure stuff I disagree with it about
22:26:19 <pikhq> alise: Not really.
22:26:20 <alise> With the vomit-encrusted rave GNOME thing?
22:26:22 <Vorpal> still it is not so bad I can't stand it
22:26:49 <Vorpal> alise, I would say that is quite reversed these days
22:27:04 <Vorpal> alise, wasn't KDE a german office of exactness?
22:27:05 <pikhq> alise: Oh, that. Right.
22:27:14 <alise> pikhq: It was "KDE developers are European and listen to tinkling classical music in a modern architecture building and do everything by the book, then enter the military to kill people senselessly because they are empty inside" and "GNOME developers are all at a rave and vomit and shit everywhere while lights strobe, and occasionally they put it all in a tarball and release it without checking whether it works."
22:27:31 <alise> Anyway, yeah, that was true back in the day, with GNOME being the crazy unusable UI-effects one.
22:27:36 <alise> It's interesting how much that is reversed now.
22:27:42 <alise> Although really both are like KDE in the article now.
22:27:45 <alise> The latter is... maybe E17?
22:27:52 <Vorpal> alise, I don't remember the military bit
22:28:00 <alise> Vorpal: it definitely had it
22:28:02 <pikhq> alise: Except for the "put it all in a tarball" thing.
22:28:08 <pikhq> E17 doesn't release.
22:28:16 <alise> Vorpal: It's not very good.
22:28:28 <Vorpal> but it looked... eyecandish?
22:28:30 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d7/E17_screenshot.jpg
22:28:35 <alise> Eye candy and nothing else.
22:28:38 <pikhq> Vorpal: It has some interesting things going on, but it's a version control checkout and it shows.
22:28:42 <alise> Much more popular a while ago than it is now.
22:28:50 <pikhq> alise: That was E16.
22:28:54 <Vorpal> I can't say I like eye candy
22:29:04 <alise> E16 didn't have eye candy.
22:29:07 <pikhq> Enlightenment 16 was popular.
22:29:15 <alise> Well E17 was popular too, in some circles.
22:29:28 <alise> Vorpal: Eye candy is worthless; but ugliness is pretty unusable too.
22:29:32 <pikhq> Wait, E16 still has releases?
22:29:39 <alise> Lack of gradients isn't ugliness, though. :)
22:29:43 <Vorpal> alise, pikhq: I use clearlooks, metacity, old version of standard gnome icon theme, #D3D9FF solid color desktop bg
22:29:49 <alise> pikhq: yep, apparently
22:29:50 <Vorpal> that says everything I think
22:29:57 <alise> clearlooks is pretty eyecandyish
22:30:20 <alise> Vorpal: old clearlooks was great: http://clearlooks.sourceforge.net/screenshots/clearlooks-0.6.png
22:30:20 <pikhq> alise: It's the unobtrusive kind, though.
22:30:25 <alise> more conservative than it is now
22:30:30 <Vorpal> alise, pikhq due to different colour reproduction on my laptop I use #DCDDEF there
22:30:34 <Vorpal> it looks about the same
22:30:40 <Vorpal> I don't know which is most correct
22:31:17 <Vorpal> <alise> Vorpal: old clearlooks was great: http://clearlooks.sourceforge.net/screenshots/clearlooks-0.6.png <-- hm, not same shade on window title bar
22:31:37 <Vorpal> a lighter, and more pure blue
22:31:46 <alise> thing i hate about classic mac OS: icons are just sprawled everywhere with no organisation most of the time!
22:31:49 <ais523> Vorpal: would you consider licensing some of your GPL code as BSD just because someone asks you to for no apparent reason?
22:31:52 <alise> Vorpal: Yes; it had a different colour scheme then.
22:31:53 <ais523> please say no, I need ammo in an arugmnet
22:31:54 <pikhq> Hmm. Actually, I may want to start using XFCE.
22:31:59 <alise> Vorpal: But look at the buttons, etc.
22:32:03 <Vorpal> ais523, I would want a good reason
22:32:08 <alise> Vorpal: They're nicer.
22:32:09 <Vorpal> ais523, a very good reason
22:32:21 <alise> pikhq: I dunno... I've used XFCE and ... I actually have no opinion on it.
22:32:27 <alise> It completely bypassed my opinion subsystem.
22:32:32 <ais523> let's see... ESR has decided he wants to relicense C-INTERCAL as BSD because it's a compiler and it helps to solve license issues
22:32:34 <alise> Vorpal: ok, but the gradients on the toolbars
22:32:40 <alise> Vorpal: are much less obtrusive
22:32:46 <ais523> I don't see any reason why the compiler itself (as opposed to libick) should be
22:32:52 <alise> simply because BSD is nicer
22:32:53 <Vorpal> alise, I don't have any toolbary window around to check with
22:32:58 <ais523> and also, his attitude seems to be "let's just do it, we'll sort out the legal problems later"
22:33:04 <alise> well that's retarded
22:33:05 <Vorpal> alise, I actually use some KDE software for the toolbary ones
22:33:07 <alise> tell him he's retarded
22:33:16 <pikhq> Though it must be said that GTK sucks.
22:33:24 <alise> pikhq: it does, but everything uses it anyway
22:33:28 <alise> so what ya gonna do
22:33:47 <Vorpal> ais523, and no I'm not prepared to re-license my contributions to ick
22:34:13 <alise> Vorpal: even if everyone else did?
22:34:16 <alise> woo, obstructiveness
22:34:17 <Vorpal> ais523, not without a very good reason and everything being properly considered
22:34:24 <ais523> luckily, even tracking down everyone else would be tricky at this point
22:34:25 <Vorpal> alise, wait for the next line
22:34:40 <alise> Vorpal: what if there was no particular reason but every other contributor ever had already agreed?
22:34:48 <alise> ais523: I'd just tell him "that's illegal".
22:34:57 <Vorpal> alise, I would ask why this was decided on
22:35:07 <alise> Vorpal: "Because we want it to be BSD."
22:35:16 <alise> Vorpal: "Because we like BSD."
22:35:34 <alise> Vorpal: "Because we do. The other 30 contributors have already agreed; will you?"
22:35:35 <Vorpal> alise, (I could go on forever, and if there was a good reason I would likely switch)
22:35:40 <ais523> Vorpal was the best person to ask here because a) he's written some relatively hard-to-replace code, b) he's right here in the channel, c) he isn't me
22:35:46 <Vorpal> alise, I probably wouldn't without a good reason no
22:35:54 <alise> ais523: and d) he's insane
22:36:05 <alise> Vorpal: "Okay; we'll rewrite your code and remove you from the credits file."
22:36:15 <ais523> alise: yes, I was rather hoping he had strong views on BSD vs. GPL
22:36:23 <alise> ais523: you already know those views, surely
22:36:31 <alise> he expresses them at every available opportunity
22:37:17 <Vorpal> ais523, I'm happy to use BSD too, I tend to use GPL for my own projects due to not wanting companies making commercial use of my own code without giving back but I'm happy to contribute under BSD to projects already using it
22:37:27 <Vorpal> ais523, that is my views on BSD vs GPL
22:37:41 <Vorpal> and "giving back" there refers to the community as a whole
22:37:59 <alise> and renders properly, wow
22:38:04 <Vorpal> not in the form of paying me
22:38:14 <Vorpal> but as in releasing improvements
22:38:21 <Vorpal> ais523, so there you have my views on them
22:38:32 <alise> In which Google is rendered on a 68k Macintosh: http://imgur.com/ugJA5.png
22:38:37 <Vorpal> ais523, however I doubt any sane company would want to reuse code from ick
22:38:46 <Vorpal> it is just... too messy
22:38:55 <ais523> it's better than it was
22:39:05 <ais523> ESR is busy trying to make it messy by the look of things
22:39:10 <Vorpal> ais523, well yes, thanks in part to me
22:39:11 <ais523> the fact that he seems unable to read INTERCAL doesn't really help
22:39:17 <ais523> Vorpal: I know; thanks for that
22:39:22 <ais523> Sgeo: the main C-INTERCAL binary
22:39:28 <ais523> Vorpal: he keeps asking me what programs do
22:39:33 <Vorpal> Sgeo, I'm pretty sure you asked this before?
22:39:35 <alise> ais523: why are you even collaborating with him?
22:39:38 <alise> he's awfully incompetent
22:39:40 * Sgeo is unable to read INTERCAL... then again, I'm not encouraging a new INTERCAL project
22:39:47 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: let's just say ais's
22:39:50 <Vorpal> ais523, perpet.c was really horrible before I cleaned it up
22:39:53 <ais523> alise: because Knuth asked us to
22:39:56 <alise> Sgeo: erm, he created C-INTERCAL
22:40:05 <alise> ais523: you could easily assemble the versions yourself
22:40:07 <Sgeo> Confused ESR and Knuth
22:40:08 <alise> and email them to knuth first :)
22:40:08 <Vorpal> ais523, took quite a while to figure out how stuff tied together, iirc it used goto to jump around before?
22:40:23 <alise> wow, this iCab was released in 2006
22:40:24 <Vorpal> not sure if I completely got rid of that or not
22:40:26 <alise> can you believe that?
22:40:30 -!- Flonk has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:40:31 <alise> new 68k software, released in 2006
22:40:33 <alise> by an actual company
22:40:41 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: The Art of Computer Programming.
22:40:44 <Vorpal> alise, they stopped after that
22:40:48 <ais523> I refuse to answer questions with gratuitous interrobangs
22:41:03 <Vorpal> <ais523> I refuse to answer questions with gratuitous interrobangs <-- um?
22:41:05 <pikhq> alise: ... Kidding, right?
22:41:11 <Vorpal> who was that directed to
22:41:21 <ais523> Vorpal: to Phantom_Hoover, who'd just used one
22:41:22 <alise> pikhq: for what remark?
22:41:27 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: dunno
22:41:27 <pikhq> alise: TAoCP & INTERCAL?
22:41:37 <alise> pikhq: he's including an INTERCAL program, apparently
22:41:39 <alise> ask ais523 to confirm
22:41:58 <alise> Sorry, a system error occured.
22:42:03 <ais523> hmm, http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=2491#more-2491 seems to give some of the context
22:42:09 <pikhq> Oh, wait. He's going to be discussing compiler techniques...
22:42:18 <Sgeo> Internet Taxi for the Mac?
22:42:25 <ais523> <esr> Don (he asked me to call him that, honest!) had requested a bug fix in INTERCAL, which he plans to use as the subject of a chapter in his forthcoming book Selected Papers on Fun And Games. As of those three hours ago Donald Knuth’s program is part of the INTERCAL compiler’s regression-test suite.
22:42:25 <alise> ais523: even just his blog post titles make me want to stab him
22:42:40 <alise> Sgeo: it's a web browser
22:42:43 <Vorpal> pikhq, the issue with C-INTERCAL is mostly parsing (though optimisation is also non-trivial)
22:42:51 <Vorpal> at least as far as I understand it
22:42:54 <ais523> what's annoying me atm is that he seems to have an attitude of "if you have a good testsuite, any commit that doesn't break it should be accepted"
22:43:01 <Sgeo> Anything with "Taxi" in the name should be an interpreter for Taxi
22:43:11 <alise> ais523: even useless commits?
22:43:25 <ais523> or ones that reduce code quality, AFAICT
22:43:43 <ais523> he told me to open up commit access to the INTERCAL repos for anyone I'd been working with
22:43:46 <Phantom_Hoover> "I discovered that INTERCAL had nucleated an entire weird little subculture of esoteric-language designers around itself, among whom I had come to be regarded as sort of a patriarch in absentia…."
22:43:53 <alise> basilisk is so crashy
22:43:54 <ais523> on the assumption that they'd run the regression tests first
22:43:59 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: HAHA
22:44:04 <Vorpal> alise, what are you doing in it?
22:44:09 <alise> nobody, and I mean nobody, considers esr godlike in the esolangs community
22:44:12 <ais523> he also claims that all modern INTERCAL impls are decended from C-INTERCAL
22:44:13 <Vorpal> alise, I found that browsing web is a bad idea.
22:44:16 <Vorpal> alise, otherwise it works well
22:44:21 <ais523> even after I specifically told him CLC-INTERCAL existed
22:44:21 <alise> Vorpal: that's what i was trying
22:44:24 <alise> Vorpal: know of an irc client?
22:44:31 <alise> ais523: this is esr, are you surprised?
22:44:39 <alise> suggestion: avoid talking to him, do only the work Knuth requests
22:44:42 <ais523> also, I'm apparently a "doughty Englishman"
22:44:44 <Vorpal> alise, get MPW and make one
22:45:04 <alise> there's an ircle release
22:45:13 <Vorpal> alise, that should be easy
22:45:24 <alise> ais523: does he know what doughty means?
22:45:30 <alise> I didn't; "brave, courageous and stouthearted"
22:45:33 <Vorpal> alise, even if stuffit fails at .bin
22:45:33 <ais523> I don't know what doughty means either
22:45:37 <alise> how the heck can he deduce that from C-INTERCAL?
22:45:38 <Vorpal> which I don't think it will
22:45:45 <alise> Vorpal: it doesn't
22:45:47 <Vorpal> you could still use hfstools to copy it to the disk image
22:45:57 <alise> haha it has both UK and US english releases
22:46:02 <Vorpal> and hfstools support copy and unhqz
22:46:51 <Vorpal> alise, btw when you linked http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d7/E17_screenshot.jpg did you read the dialog in the middle?
22:47:25 <alise> that's conservative, haha
22:47:47 <Vorpal> alise, and calling a supposedly "conservative" theme "bling bling"...?
22:49:43 <alise> hey, it got a 2010 date correct
22:49:49 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you think they did that intentionally?
22:49:59 <Phantom_Hoover> You know, ESR might actually be more full of himself than Wolfram...
22:50:04 <alise> basilisk's scroll wheel emulation is awesome
22:50:06 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: no, he isn't
22:50:40 <Vorpal> <alise> basilisk's scroll wheel emulation is awesome <-- um... it doesn't work in all apps due to being implemented as "arrow key input"
22:50:49 <Vorpal> and in some apps it scrolls too fast
22:51:23 -!- alise68k has joined.
22:51:48 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, read the introduction at http://reference.wolfram.com/mathematica/guide/FunctionalProgramming.html
22:52:01 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, even ESR isn't that bad
22:53:04 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what about this one: "
22:53:04 <Vorpal> Mathematica provides a uniquely integrated and automated environment for parallel computing. With zero configuration, full interactivity and seamless local and network operation, the symbolic character of the Mathematica language allows immediate support of a variety of existing and new parallel programming paradigms and data-sharing models. "
22:53:14 <Vorpal> not quite as bad as the first one
22:53:36 * Phantom_Hoover avoids concurrency quite well as it is, thank you very much.
22:54:05 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, "Integrated into the core Mathematica language is industrial-strength string manipulation, not only with ordinary regular expressions, but also with Mathematica's own powerful general symbolic string-pattern language. "
22:54:23 <Vorpal> this is embarrassingly bad
22:54:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Again, I haven't bothered to learn about string processing, so they could be right for all I know.
22:54:47 <Vorpal> how can anyone write "industrial-strength string manipulation" and NOT be joking
22:56:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, doing *anything* industrial-strength in Mathematica seems silly to me.
22:56:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Even Coq seems more immediately gluable to the outside world.
22:57:06 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, but "industrial-strength string manipulation" is almost as silly as "Enterprise INTERCAL System Administrator Certification"
22:57:14 <ais523> hey, I'd do the latter
22:57:25 <ais523> also, Mathematica doesn't even do things like a memoized study
22:57:32 <ais523> well, admittedly nothing else does either, but it'd help it out
22:57:46 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: first step is to explain what it actually /means/
22:57:56 <ais523> you'd also need to demonstrate expertise in administering an INTERCAL-based system
22:58:09 <Vorpal> ais523, a redundant one of course
22:58:23 <Phantom_Hoover> I can truthfully say that I have administered every INTERCAL-based system in existence.
22:58:33 <ais523> I'm not going to fall for that one
22:58:39 <Vorpal> ais523, why not implement a redundant distributed network on top of CLC-INTERCAL networking
22:58:47 <Vorpal> such as erlang or similar
22:58:56 <ais523> Vorpal: because I have better things to do?
23:00:50 <Vorpal> ais523, I imagine a rack containing some UPSes and huge cabinets of blade servers, each running INTERCAL software
23:01:02 <Vorpal> I can't seem to get this image out of my mind
23:01:04 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: begging is a method of gaining certification?
23:02:24 <Vorpal> does that work at any uni?
23:03:01 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, graduating suma cum laude (spelling?) is the way to go
23:03:08 <Vorpal> and doing that by begging? wrong way
23:03:13 <Vorpal> you shouldn't need to beg
23:03:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, you obviously don't go to a reputable university, then.
23:03:31 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, examples of such in Europe?
23:04:26 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, read the sub titles for the categories on http://reference.wolfram.com/mathematica/guide/Mathematica.html
23:04:49 <Phantom_Hoover> They couldn't go around having people who don't know about them knowing about them, now could they?
23:05:23 <ais523> alise68k: do you have any code in C-INTERCAL?
23:05:25 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I go to one that probably give you marks based on what you actually do
23:05:35 <ais523> (I know you have bug reports)
23:05:36 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you were trolling?
23:05:57 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what was?
23:06:31 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, are you saying I was trolling?
23:06:36 <Vorpal> not intentionally at least
23:07:24 <ais523> meh, I don't accuse people of trolling when it's obvious
23:08:20 <Vorpal> ... how does that follow
23:08:33 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:11:25 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, is it just black + music?
23:11:41 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, quite nice music so far
23:12:54 <Vorpal> though somewhat abrupt change is style around 02:05 or such
23:13:43 <Phantom_Hoover> In other news, didn't I have a random idea of a proof assistant written in Coq?
23:14:00 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, isn't Coq a proof assistant?
23:14:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, the change is presumably Wolfram's ego reaching its proper place in the heavens.
23:14:21 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I would say awesome music with very very strange title
23:14:45 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I think I won't delete the file the music was that awesome. Just have to ignore the title
23:16:43 <Phantom_Hoover> http://chrishecker.com/File:Wolframalpha-crop.png ← Wolfram's ego has indeed created much entertainment.
23:18:15 <ais523> <esr> If anyone living has a claim to be the high priest of the cult of systematic skepticism in software development, that would be me.
23:18:19 <ais523> missed that on the first readthrough...
23:18:26 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: that's mild by wolfram's standards
23:18:32 <pikhq> alise: Have you been able to find a satisfactory GUI IM client?
23:19:07 <alise> ais523: link Phantom_Hoover to Wolfram's blog post where he announces that he used your brain to PERSONALLY compute the answer to his BEAUTIFUL 2,3 problem
23:19:19 <alise> which was done by HIM, STEPHEN WOLFRAM
23:19:33 <alise> pikhq: No. I use Pidgin. It causes great pain. But less so than anything else.
23:19:46 <alise> pikhq: I use XChat. For now.
23:19:50 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, if you give me my certification, I'll beat Wolfram with a pillowcase full of soap.
23:19:52 <pikhq> irssi it is, then!
23:20:01 <ais523> alise: I'm not sure where it is, offhand
23:20:01 <alise> pikhq: XChat /can/ be configured to be somewhat tolerable...
23:20:07 <alise> pikhq: You might like WeeChat, btw.
23:20:13 <pikhq> Yeah, but irssi is *already* tolerable.
23:20:36 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, judging by my search history, I have at times thought your name to be Adam, Alan and Alex Smith.
23:20:44 <alise> http://mollyrocket.com/11235
23:20:45 <ais523> are you thinking of this one: http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/solution_news.html
23:20:55 <alise> explanation of the title
23:20:56 <ais523> also, searching for "Alex Smith" is useless, it's a rather common name
23:21:04 <alise> ais523: won't load o_O
23:21:07 <alise> and no, it was on his blog
23:21:22 <ais523> http://blog.wolfram.com/?year=2007&monthnum=10&name=the-prize-is-won-the-simplest-universal-turing-machine-is-proved
23:21:25 <alise> "↑ I will write up why I think it sucks it in more detail at some point on my Mathematica page, but for now I refer you to this. To be fair, I'm using an old copy of Mathematica 3.0, but I've looked at the feature lists of the newer versions and they don't seem to fix (or even acknowledge) the issues I have with it, so I've never bothered to upgrade. I have an article brewing about my math problem solving workflow that I hope to post before the heat death
23:21:29 <alise> someone using mathematica 3 in 2010
23:21:32 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, incidentally, do you still have that insane beard?
23:21:42 <alise> ais523: I wonder why it's not loading.
23:21:45 <alise> insane? that beard is awesome!
23:21:47 <ais523> I still have a beard, yes
23:21:55 <ais523> alise: did you blackhole Wolfram in your hosts file?
23:21:55 <alise> i wouldn't talk to him if he got rid of that beard
23:21:58 <alise> ais523: no, but good idea
23:22:07 <ais523> I wouldn't put it past you...
23:22:12 <oerjan> his beard has been getting psychotherapy and is no longer insane
23:22:30 <alise68k> IRCing from a 68k Macintosh, fuck yeah!
23:22:56 <alise68k> In which I use ircle: http://i.imgur.com/c3wwD.png
23:23:04 <alise68k> BEHOLD, PEOPLE WHO DO NOT USE OLD MACINTOSHII!
23:24:12 <alise68k> heh, the IM advice for System 7 is "install an IRC client and use Bitlbee"
23:24:53 <alise> ais523: "Now, friends, you may be wondering why I bothered to do all this rather than simply starting a repo with ais523’s latest snapshot and munging my week’s worth of changes into it, and all I’m going to say about that is that if the answer isn’t intuitively obvious to you you have missed the point of INTERCAL and are probably not a hacker."
23:25:24 <ais523> alise: what's your opinion on that sentence?
23:25:25 <alise> ais523: tl;dr "If you don't understand why I wasted time bugging other people, you're not a hacker like I am. I know this because I wrote the definition of a hacker. Fun fact: It includes not calling yourself a hacker. I am a man of many contradictions."
23:25:35 <alise> ais523: I think it's one of the strangest sentences I've read today.
23:25:54 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, incidentally, do you still have that insane beard? <-- which awesome beard?
23:25:58 <alise> ais523: did you give him permission to quote those emails?
23:26:33 <ais523> I could probably have objected if I didn't want them posted, at least
23:26:43 <Vorpal> ais523, do you have a link to a photo?
23:26:48 <alise> my email-quoting ethics: Only do it if the other person is a massive jerk, or if you're just quoting them in private to someone you know
23:26:58 <ais523> Vorpal: what, any photo?
23:27:06 <ais523> just click random image on Wikimedia Commons a few times
23:27:21 <Vorpal> ais523, no to one showing your beard
23:27:25 <ais523> alise: just change it to "if either person is a massive jerk", then it works just fine
23:27:39 <ais523> Vorpal: let's just say, I don't use Facebook for a reason
23:27:46 <alise> ais523: I think that's the first time you've outright called esr something nasty :-)
23:27:49 <Vorpal> ais523, well I'm pretty sure I seen one
23:27:57 <alise> either that or you're implying I'm a massive jerk :-D
23:28:00 <ais523> which is partly that I don't see what the point in gratuitous photos are
23:28:08 <alise> Vorpal: wolfram has one, but it's old, and you're a stalker.
23:28:16 <Vorpal> aha http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/alex_smith_bio.html
23:28:26 <alise68k> Nobody say anything Unicode, my poor Mac won't be able to cope.
23:28:27 <Vorpal> alise, nah, I was just wondering what Phantom_Hoover meant
23:28:29 <ais523> alise: well, or that he asked permission
23:28:37 <Vorpal> alise, since I did not remember that
23:28:40 <ais523> I'm not sure if it counts or not
23:29:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, OK, I'll compensate for your crappy Googlestalking skills.
23:29:24 <alise> ais523: Interesting challenge: find a sentence in the blog post that isn't about esr in some major way.
23:29:58 <ais523> "Today’s routine use of such tools wasn’t even a gleam in anyone’s eye then, if only because disks were orders of magnitude smaller and there was a lot of implied pressure to actually throw away old versions of stuff."
23:30:07 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I found it above
23:30:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/images/alex_smith_wolfram_turing.jpg
23:30:15 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, please read up :)
23:30:31 <ais523> it was just a c&p from the article
23:30:37 <ais523> but I can hardly re-encode it to MacRoman for you
23:30:56 <alise68k> Wow, if I select a menu it halts all IRC output until I deselect.
23:30:57 <ais523> not implemented in the client
23:31:02 <alise68k> This font is ridiculously small.
23:31:09 -!- alise68k has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:31:21 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway considering license... remember IFFI. That makes the whole thing even more complex. :P
23:31:38 <Vorpal> alise, JIT is only marginally more stable
23:31:40 <ais523> Vorpal: I did remember that, it was meant to be a last-case bargaining chip
23:31:44 <alise> Vorpal: yes, marginally is good
23:31:58 <ais523> atm I'm just pretending to be offline
23:32:08 <ais523> in fact, I should go actually offline, it would be nice if I got some sleep tonight
23:32:08 <alise> Wow, you really don't like talking to esr.
23:32:11 <Vorpal> ais523, you know esr is on freenode right?
23:32:14 <ais523> alise: I don't mind normally
23:32:24 <ais523> it's just I can't think of a sensible answer to his last email
23:32:27 <alise> olsner: said Mr. Ner.
23:32:35 <alise> ais523: "That is illegal. Have a nice day."
23:32:53 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway IFFI complicates it due to GPL3, iirc with proxy thingy too
23:33:08 <ais523> yep, although the link code is GPL2
23:33:17 <Vorpal> ais523, yes by special exception from author
23:33:21 <ais523> heh, I suppose I've asked you to relicense for INTERCAL once already
23:33:44 <alise> IRC font options: Chicago, Courier, Geneva, Helvetica, Mishawaka, Monaco, New York, Palatino, Symbol, Times
23:33:59 <ais523> hmm, I should try to find an email from Google
23:34:11 <Vorpal> ais523, are you suggesting going GPL3? well I doubt you would get esr with you on that... and the code he wrote....
23:34:21 <ais523> alise: I asked them what the license on CADIE was
23:34:32 <ais523> (Google avoid comments in INTERCAL code because they slow execution)
23:34:39 <Vorpal> ais523, did they reply?
23:34:46 <alise> oh yesss this has Mac OS speech in simpletext
23:35:08 <Vorpal> alise, "Victoria, High Quality" is all I remember from that
23:35:19 <alise> no high quality here dammit
23:35:28 <Vorpal> alise, the "high quality" bit was not very well spoken
23:35:35 * alise makes it say "Fitter, happier, and more productive."
23:35:40 <alise> I am easily amused.
23:35:42 <Vorpal> alise, that voice is from classic mac os
23:35:59 <Vorpal> ais523, and what was the reply?
23:36:01 <fizzie> There's the "the light at the end of the tunnel is the headlights of a fast approaching train" example-sentence of the "Bad News" (or some-such) voice. I fondly remember that.
23:36:01 <alise> Geneva is a lovely bitmap font.
23:36:11 <alise> fizzie: OS X still has that when you play the example.
23:36:44 -!- augur has joined.
23:37:01 <fizzie> alise: Heh, went to iBook / Preferences / Speech; "System Voice" is indeed set to "Bad News". :p
23:37:17 <ais523> OK, CADIE's license is "apache"
23:37:27 <ais523> I'm assuming that's apache v2, mostly because v1 is insane
23:37:47 -!- alise68k has joined.
23:37:50 <fizzie> Even the OS X text-to-speech bit is not quite state-of-the-art.
23:38:28 <ais523> hmm, apache v2 is compatible with GPL3 but not GPL2
23:38:50 <alise68k> Huh, I thought it was GPL2-compatible.
23:39:39 <Phantom_Hoover> I suppose the OEIS doesn't have any sequences the union of which are |?
23:39:39 <alise68k> Oh yeah, proportional IRC fonts. REBELLION
23:39:50 <ais523> ISTR there was a big row about including clauses in GPL3 and Apache2 to make the two compatible
23:39:53 <alise68k> Phantom_Hoover: Pretty sure it has N, at least.
23:40:01 <alise68k> I'm not sure your question is very well-defined.
23:40:04 <alise68k> Union is an operation on sets.
23:40:06 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: prime numbers and composite numbers?
23:40:12 <ais523> plus the sequence that consists only of 0 and 1?
23:40:33 <ais523> throw in -1, negative primes and negative composites
23:40:38 <ais523> or, what about odds and evens?
23:40:42 <pikhq> ais523: The GPLv3 added clauses *allowing* for certain restrictions or lack of restrictions for the sake of compatibility.
23:40:47 <alise68k> I don't think OEIS HAS negative numbers.
23:41:11 <pikhq> ais523: The GPLv3, BTW, is compatible with the old-style BSD license, as well.
23:41:16 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: according to The Penguin Book Of Interesting Numbers, 39 is the smallest boring natural number
23:41:19 <pikhq> (it allows for an advertising clause)
23:41:30 <alise68k> ircle is so weird, having a separate window for the input line and all that.
23:41:35 <ais523> ofc, advertising materials tend not to be so compatible with BSD4
23:41:50 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway, while I wrote the main code on cfunge, after the point of implementing IFFI I got a few small patches from other people. Some not in here (very strange) and at least one I haven't seen on IRC for over half a year
23:41:57 <Vorpal> and have no idea how to reach
23:42:00 <alise68k> ircle appears to not have tab-completion of nicknames.
23:42:01 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: well, the book was a dictionary of interesting numbers
23:42:06 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: A000027 is the natural numbers: 1, 2, 3, 4, ...; A001489 is the nonpositive integers: 0, -1, -2, -3, ...; just join those.
23:42:09 <Vorpal> ais523, he did not want to be in credits since it was a trivial change
23:42:17 <ais523> and 39 wasn't there for any purpose other than being the smallest nonpositive
23:42:34 <Vorpal> ais523, still that would complicate it further
23:42:38 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.nathanieljohnston.com/2009/06/11630-is-the-first-uninteresting-number/ gives 11630
23:42:43 <Vorpal> could probably not change the ick exception to a new license
23:43:10 <ais523> Vorpal: well, I agree; "just make the change and remove people's code if they complain" is not a sensible course of action
23:43:19 <pikhq> I'm remembering once again the problem with theming.
23:43:21 <ais523> I'll email ESR and say that at least one contributor other than me doesn't want a relicense
23:43:26 <pikhq> Most people have absolutely no taste.
23:43:44 <Vorpal> ais523, I expect you have even more hard to track down people for ick itself
23:43:47 <fizzie> And some people just taste like chicken.,
23:44:06 <alise68k> Monaco at 12pt is too sparse. :(
23:44:11 <alise68k> Oh well, it's just an emulated Mac.
23:44:42 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.research.att.com/njas/sequences/index.html?q=0%2C1%2C-1%2C2%2C-2%2C3%2C-3&language=english
23:45:01 <alise68k> ais523: Quick! What room should I go in to and ask for technical help in while mentioning I'm using Mac OS 7.6.1? :-D
23:45:22 <oerjan> er, http://www.research.att.com/~njas/sequences/A001057
23:45:24 <ais523> alise68k: I can't think of an appropriate one; #gnaa would at least be amusing
23:45:33 <Vorpal> alise68k, um... there is actually python that runs on classic mac os. But it might be PPC only
23:45:44 <ais523> or any channel you want to troll
23:45:49 <ais523> and don't mind being banned from?
23:45:56 <Vorpal> alise68k, I was about to suggest #haskell but realised that didn't run on any classic mac os
23:46:02 <ais523> arguably, Vorpal did just that in #esoteric
23:46:06 <ais523> although maybe not that specific version
23:46:28 -!- alise68k has quit (Quit: Quit).
23:46:40 <fizzie> alise: Find some popular and lively FirstClass BBS somewhere, ask there.
23:46:45 <pikhq> Gotta love the Mac Programmer's Workshop.
23:46:48 <ais523> went into an IRC channel and asked for technical help on a relevant subject using an obsolete operating system
23:46:50 <olsner> Vorpal: whatever it is that you did I'm pretty sure you did it
23:46:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, firstclass... *memories*
23:46:55 <alise> ais523: #gnaa just redirects to a Freenode "NO NO NO NO NO NO NO" channel
23:47:04 <ais523> that hardly surprises me
23:47:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, gymnasiet I studied at used first class
23:47:13 <ais523> did Freenode do that? or did the GNAA themselves? I wonder
23:47:16 <alise> * Topic for ##you_have_got_to_be_kidding is: Hi, you should probably read the network policy page (http://freenode.net/policy.shtml#general) and maybe some information about the network (http://freenode.net/ and http://freenode.net/philosophy.shtml) and maybe find a better network ;) (http://irc.netsplit.de/networks). Thanks!
23:47:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, still quite different from old firstclass
23:47:42 <ais523> also, ##you_have_got_to_be_kidding is the best page name ever
23:47:42 <alise> Okay, now I need more software to try on 68k.
23:47:46 <alise> ais523: yes. page.
23:47:58 <pikhq> alise: Well, you've got a C compiler...
23:48:05 <alise> pikhq: I'm not installing MPW.
23:48:08 <alise> Have you ever used MPW?
23:48:08 <fizzie> Vorpal: I used to go to fiMUG's (Finnish Mac-user community) BBS, "AppleGarden", with the Win3.1 FirstClass client.
23:48:14 <Vorpal> I thought everyone knew that
23:48:17 <olsner> oh, I've also used firstclass... I remember someone figuring out how to send messages to the magic recipient "ALL" that literally put your message *everywhere* - in every bulletin board, in every subfolder, in every personal mailbox
23:48:19 <alise> Do not deny this. IT. IS. PAIN.
23:48:19 * Sgeo eats ripened ovaries
23:48:26 <Vorpal> alise, I have used MPW...
23:48:28 <ais523> Vorpal: well, I didn't
23:48:29 <alise> Sgeo: Good ... to know ...
23:48:31 <Vorpal> alise, I ported ICK to it after all
23:48:33 <alise> Vorpal: And it was pain.
23:48:37 <pikhq> alise: No, but there is a guy at the local LUG who swears by it.
23:48:39 <Vorpal> alise, only works for PPC though
23:48:48 <Vorpal> alise, would need reporting for 68k
23:48:49 <alise> pikhq: But ... LINUX User Group...
23:49:00 <alise> pikhq: Anyway, MPW is just pain. No arguments.
23:49:17 <Vorpal> alise, and MPW is "quaint"
23:49:20 <pikhq> Yes. I seem to recall he's got it set up to work with SSH.
23:49:29 <alise> pikhq: Um ... tell him he's crazy.
23:49:49 <Vorpal> alise, ever tried that metroworks IDE for mac?
23:49:55 <Vorpal> alise, codewarrior iirc?
23:49:59 <alise> I gather it's what professional developers used.
23:50:05 <alise> CodeWarrior, yeah.
23:50:11 <Vorpal> alise, I tried it, it is worse than MPW in C standard support
23:50:16 <alise> OOH have you got a copy of HyperCard Myst Vorpal
23:50:28 <Vorpal> alise, I have myst on a cd for mac
23:50:43 <alise> So, hypothetically, if some evil person didn't ask you in /msg...
23:50:43 <Vorpal> alise, it is quite large
23:51:25 <Vorpal> alise, and I have nowhere I can put it. If I could setup a hypotethical ssh tunnel to not send it over...
23:51:44 <alise> Damn, he'd have to hypothetically fiddle with his stupid router.
23:51:51 <alise> But he would probably consider it.
23:52:22 <Vorpal> alise, well that hypothetical person would have to consider what he thinks it is worth :P
23:52:30 <Vorpal> alise, and do it soon or tomorrow
23:52:41 <alise> Tomorrow sounds good. :P
23:52:46 <Vorpal> alise, oh and I have full hypercard somewhere
23:52:48 <fizzie> You could hypothetically just get it from one of those hypothetical peer-to-beer places.
23:52:57 <Sgeo> Uru is playable online
23:53:01 <alise> Peer-to-beer: the usual method of social interaction.
23:53:03 <Vorpal> alise, anyway I have no clue if this cd works on 68k. It came bundled with a PPC Performa
23:53:06 <alise> Sgeo: Is it HyperCard?
23:53:07 <fizzie> (The one nautically themed one has a .dmg of the mac disc.)
23:53:15 <alise> Vorpal: If it's HyperCard, I bet I could substitute a 68k HyperCard in.
23:53:25 <Vorpal> alise, well it is compiled hypercard I know
23:53:25 <alise> wow @ Desktop Patterns
23:53:28 <alise> Reminds me of Windows 95.
23:53:50 <Vorpal> alise, um desktop patterns... reminds me of system 7
23:53:56 <alise> haha they have plaid
23:54:09 <Sgeo> What's whatever programming language that HyperCard uses like?
23:54:18 <Sgeo> Desktop Patterns!
23:54:21 <Sgeo> I remember those!
23:54:33 <Vorpal> <Sgeo> What's whatever programming language that HyperCard uses like? <-- um
23:54:44 <Vorpal> it is a bit like AppleTalk
23:54:46 <alise> Vorpal: http://imgur.com/E7nac.png
23:54:48 <alise> Experience the PAIN.
23:55:06 <Vorpal> alise, huh you could do that large repetitions
23:55:06 <Sgeo> Dear Display Properties: Get your tabs workinbg
23:55:12 <Vorpal> alise, you couldn't under 7.5
23:55:17 <Vorpal> alise, I never used 7.6
23:55:23 <alise> 7.6 is when 7 became actually good.
23:55:41 <alise> Isn't there a "set arbitrary solid colour" option anywhere? Gaah.
23:55:49 <alise> The dithering is weird.
23:56:03 <Vorpal> whatever classic came with (when I was really small), various subversions of 7.5, 8.5 a few times, 9.0.4 and 9.1 quite a lot
23:56:28 <Vorpal> alise, go to monitor settings
23:56:34 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
23:56:36 <Vorpal> alise, and set a sane colour count
23:56:41 <alise> Vorpal: Millions already.
23:56:48 <alise> But the only place I can see to set a background is Desktop Patterns.
23:56:51 <alise> Which has the dithered-solid-colours stuff.
23:56:53 <Vorpal> alise, that plaid is quite nice
23:57:00 <Vorpal> in a funky kind of way
23:57:08 <Vorpal> alise, it could be worse
23:57:15 <Vorpal> alise, replace the red with pink
23:57:17 <alise> It could be a hell of a lot better.
23:57:33 <Vorpal> alise, and add complementary colours next to each other
23:57:41 <Vorpal> that would be much worse
23:57:54 <alise> Colours that complement each other are generally considered good to put next to each other...
23:58:13 <Vorpal> alise, hm. Maybe I misremembered then
23:58:14 <Sgeo> afaict, Ward's Wiki people love Smalltalk
23:58:23 <alise> Sgeo: yes, it was born out of C2.
23:58:27 <Vorpal> alise, I suggest some non-matching ones then
23:58:29 <alise> what was the project called
23:58:36 <Gregor> alise: Colors that compliment each other are also considered good to put next to each other.
23:58:42 <alise> http://lexnet.bravepages.com/HTMLJS.htm "Translating HyperTalk to JavaScript"
23:58:47 <alise> Gregor: And force to mate.
23:58:55 <Gregor> "Oh pink, you're so bright and cheerful!" "As are you, yellow!"
23:59:14 <Sgeo> Well, surely hyperintelligent shades of blue like to do it?
23:59:27 <alise> Yes, but not with just ANY old colour.
23:59:35 <Vorpal> alise, they could add tartan with the classical Scottish clan patterns
00:00:03 * Sgeo wonders if the original Smalltalk-80 is still usable
00:00:26 <Sgeo> alise, WOT mistrusts bravepages.com
00:00:37 -!- sshc_ has joined.
00:00:54 <Sgeo> alise, howso?!?!?
00:01:01 <alise> Haha, the amount of ?!s.
00:01:34 <Vorpal> alise, so remember I will not hypothetically ssh to you. Under no condition would I let you ssh to me :P Unless you plan to set up ipv6 and ipsec and tunnel ssh over that. Which would probably annoy the hell out of sixxs so not a good idea at all
00:01:57 <Sgeo> I mean, just because some WOT commentors think geocities.com is malicious does not mean WOT in general is a bad idea
00:02:37 <alise> Sgeo: For one, instead of "wisdom of the crowds" it's mob rule. For two, yes it /does/; its goodness is directly linked to how good it performs in practice because the WHOLE POINT is letting random people do it. Furthermore, it's simply retarded. It just has no good rationale or anything. It's just a cheap trick to form a corporation based on.
00:02:38 <Vorpal> web of trust, isn't that what pgp key signing is supposed to be about
00:02:42 <Vorpal> but really fails badly
00:02:50 <alise> Nobody with any kind of a brain should use it or think it means anything at all.
00:03:03 <alise> Vorpal: no it's some stupid company stealing the name and making it even more retarded
00:03:18 <Sgeo> alise, well, it gets some sites wrong, but for the most part...
00:03:40 <alise> Vorpal: Here's how it works: "Users tell us whether a site is good or bad. We listen to them, no matter how few or how idiotic they are."
00:04:05 <Sgeo> Note that Geocities has a green rating, despite the comments being nutty
00:04:05 <alise> Sgeo: And you need it why? Because you use an insecure OS without a virus scanner and also can't think the minimal amount of thinking required to determine whether a website is safe?
00:04:07 <alise> It's utterly pointless!
00:04:18 <Vorpal> alise, well that wasn't in the same sense as I meant
00:04:34 * Sgeo once again has an operational virus scanner
00:04:34 -!- sshc has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
00:04:35 <Vorpal> alise, pgp key signing is in a sense about a web of trust and the model fails badly there too
00:04:45 <alise> at least it actually has the whole WEB thing
00:04:59 <Vorpal> alise, btw I have a local CA for my lan since yesterday with host x509 certs
00:05:12 <Vorpal> alise, this is because I'm playing around with ipsec
00:05:28 <Vorpal> (I store the CA stuff on an encrypted fs and so on of course)
00:05:28 <alise> Vorpal: btw http://www.retards.org/projects/grackle68k/
00:05:37 <alise> a Mac-like Twitter client for System 6 to OS 9.
00:05:38 <Vorpal> alise, ever used encfs?
00:05:57 <alise> Imagine if Twitter had been invented when System 6 was out. Grackle68k would have been released.
00:06:10 <Sgeo> User-facing applications used some resource editor tool?
00:06:22 <Vorpal> alise, it is fuse and encrypts file data and file names, storing them as files in another dir
00:06:30 <alise> It's just a convenience there.
00:06:37 <Vorpal> alise, so it doesn't need a disk image and it is on per-file basis in a sense
00:06:38 <Sgeo> " It would be nice if you didn't have to use ResEdit, but why not open ResEdit and reminisce anyway?"
00:06:43 <alise> "Also, if you use resedit to put your username and password in the obvious STR resource, you won't have to enter it when you start the program."
00:06:47 <alise> Reading comprehension! YAY!
00:07:01 <Sgeo> But, programs didn't just provide "store name and password" stuff?
00:07:28 <Vorpal> Sgeo, you fail at reading
00:07:29 <alise> Who the hell said that?
00:07:37 <alise> It's someone's pet project, of course it isn't polished.
00:07:51 <Vorpal> alise, opengenera badly needs a twitter client I feel
00:07:51 <Sgeo> Ok, why does it mention reminiscing about ResEdit?
00:07:57 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
00:07:59 <alise> Because people used ResEdit a lot.
00:08:08 <Vorpal> resedit was actually extremely nice
00:08:13 <Sgeo> Non-programming consumers?
00:08:18 <Sgeo> Or just programmers
00:08:20 <alise> It's called "experienced users".
00:08:31 <alise> Someone who would buy an intelligent Mac magazine regularly.
00:08:37 <Vorpal> I could fix misaligned dialogs due to i18n and someone not checking that the label fit
00:08:42 <Sgeo> Hmm, I guess like regedit
00:08:43 <Vorpal> I did that with resedit a few times
00:09:11 <Vorpal> Sgeo, regedit? what the fuck does that have to do with it
00:09:21 <Sgeo> Vorpal, for use by experienced users
00:09:34 <Vorpal> Sgeo, there are resource editing tools for windows too
00:09:39 <Vorpal> more like those I guess
00:09:51 <Vorpal> Sgeo, reshacker iirc was one
00:09:55 <Vorpal> or something like that
00:10:34 <Vorpal> Sgeo, think along the lines of this: http://www.wilsonc.demon.co.uk/d10resourceeditor.htm
00:11:22 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
00:11:22 <fizzie> I remember using Borland Resource Workshop on win3.1, but I have no recollection what for.
00:11:27 <fizzie> Maybe to twiddle with some dialogs.
00:11:33 <alise> robotfindskitten mac-68k
00:11:36 -!- sshc_ has changed nick to sshc.
00:11:38 <alise> http://www.retards.org/projects/robotfindskitten-mac68k/
00:11:59 <alise> "There's a bootable disk image with rfk in the downloads section for use with the BasiliskII and vmac emulators."
00:12:01 <alise> Who needs other applications?
00:12:40 <fizzie> I am a bit anti-rfk nowadays, because the main rfk maintainer never added my rfk86 to the list of ports. :/
00:12:53 <alise> fizzie: He may be busy with other stuff?
00:13:31 <alise> Vorpal: TeX syntax there
00:13:33 <Vorpal> wait I thought it was befunge code first
00:13:36 <fizzie> But it's been ages! (He did reply but then nothing happened evar.)
00:13:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, maybe remind him?
00:14:21 <nooga> i like to call my green tea 'biodiesel'
00:14:44 <alise> The only command it has is "New Game". Not even an about screen.
00:14:51 <alise> I admire that, though ideally, I would not have a "New Game" command.
00:14:56 <alise> It would simply be pure Robot Finds Kitten.
00:15:07 <alise> *robotfindskitten.
00:15:09 <alise> Either you play, or you quit.
00:16:07 <alise> [[A gravestone stands here. "Izchak Miller, ascended."]]
00:16:50 <ais523> that's an RfK message?
00:17:20 -!- FireFly has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
00:18:00 <Vorpal> alise, you can find that in nethack too of course
00:18:31 <ais523> it wouldn't be that exact message
00:19:39 <alise> he's alive in nethack, after all
00:20:16 <Vorpal> alise, yes but iirc you can also find that on gravestones?
00:20:43 <alise> http://www.emaculation.com/macfiles/doom.hqx
00:20:48 <ais523> you'd have to engrave it on one yourself
00:20:55 <Vorpal> alise, the difference would be that it isn't "A gravestone stands here." iirc
00:20:55 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:21:29 <alise> I wonder if Nethack--
00:21:45 <Vorpal> alise, if playing mac games I can warmly recommend the exile series... Shareware though. And even more so the updated Avernum series, taking it from top down to isometric and improving gameplay
00:21:56 <Vorpal> alise, one of the best epic RPG series I ever played
00:21:57 <alise> OS: MacOS 8.1 or later, MacOS 9, MacOS X
00:21:59 <alise> Replaces previous Mac "Classic" port.
00:22:11 <alise> Vorpal: I'm not a huge RPG fan, I'm afraid.
00:22:25 <Vorpal> alise, well it is a RPG/adventure mix rather
00:22:30 <alise> Holy shit, this means I need to get an OLDER VERSION of Nethack.
00:22:37 <alise> I thought it incomprehensible.
00:22:37 * Sgeo just ate 24 Kit-Kat bars
00:22:44 <alise> Sgeo: You are going to die
00:23:03 <Vorpal> alise, with an extensive game world and quite open gameplay (though it does converge towards a common goal)
00:23:09 <Sgeo> alise, so are you.
00:23:16 <alise> Sgeo: You'll die sooner.
00:23:50 <Vorpal> alise, in fact let me find a map of the game world from game 1. For most of the game you can move through all of it. So one area is seldom closed off after you left it:
00:24:06 <alise> "Sorry, these binaries will not run on 68K-based Macs."
00:24:10 <alise> At 3.4.0 right now.
00:24:10 <Vorpal> alise, http://www.silverchat.com/~silver/Avernum/mainmap1.html
00:24:13 <alise> Have to go even older.
00:24:24 <alise> Vorpal: Well, yes, that is quite epic.
00:24:33 <Vorpal> alise, each of those areas are like 1 pixel = 4 tiles
00:24:38 <Vorpal> alise, in the zoomed in map
00:24:38 <alise> NetHack3.3.1 for 68K and PPC Macintosh
00:24:46 <alise> Vorpal: Seriously? Jesus.
00:25:04 <alise> ftp://umn.dl.sourceforge.net/pub/sourceforge/n/ne/nethack/nethack-331-fat.sit
00:25:05 <Sgeo> So I have much more than the recommended daily values of total fat for a day
00:25:06 <Vorpal> alise, wait, no, 1 block in http://www.silverchat.com/~silver/Avernum/Wrappers1/NepharFort.html = 1 tile
00:25:10 <alise> you'd better believe it
00:25:13 <Vorpal> alise, in the zoomed out version though...
00:25:20 <Sgeo> Is that necessarily fatal, especially when I'm underweight?
00:25:20 <Vorpal> alise, and that is the overworld
00:25:25 <alise> oh spiderweb software
00:25:31 <Vorpal> alise, where your 4 person party fits on one tile
00:25:31 <alise> that guy blogs interesting stuff occasionally
00:25:33 <Sgeo> alise, good luck going wishless in older versions
00:25:39 <Vorpal> alise, yes epicly good RPG
00:25:45 <alise> Sgeo: You can't just eat random crap to gain weight :P
00:25:49 <Vorpal> alise, in fact best RPG I ever played was avernum 2
00:25:54 <Sgeo> alise, aww, why not? :(
00:25:57 <alise> But I'm crazily unhealthy and even I wouldn't eat 24 Kit-Kat bars.
00:25:58 <fizzie> Vorpal: I've been thinking about sending a reminder email, but then I wonder if it'd be too naggy.
00:26:03 <alise> Sgeo: Ask Ilari. Have fun with that!
00:26:16 <alise> fizzie: It's not like you talk to him anyway.
00:26:23 <Vorpal> alise, what about space shooting extensive gameworld with *really* open game play
00:26:30 <Vorpal> alise, where you can side with either side
00:26:32 <Sgeo> Open gameplay?
00:26:36 <Vorpal> of the multiple conflicts
00:26:36 <Sgeo> Sounds like my sort of thing
00:26:55 <Vorpal> awesome classic mac game
00:27:03 <Vorpal> not sure if it needs a real mac
00:27:09 <Vorpal> or if it works in sheepshaver
00:27:13 <Vorpal> it might need a real mac
00:27:16 <Sgeo> I don't have room to pirate stuff
00:27:25 <Vorpal> Sgeo, I believe it is like 32 MB?
00:27:43 <Vorpal> Sgeo, this is for classic mac os
00:27:46 <Sgeo> 32MB for Hackintosh or whatever it's called?
00:27:53 <alise> because os x = classic os
00:27:54 <Vorpal> Sgeo, I said the download
00:28:01 <Sgeo> alise, I realized
00:28:13 <Vorpal> and I meant the ev override download size
00:28:15 <Sgeo> I'm not good with all this mac stuff, although I have a book somewhere...
00:28:16 <alise> http://downloads.sourceforge.net/project/nethack/nethack/3.3.1/nethack-331-fat.sit
00:28:18 <alise> actually working URL
00:28:39 <Vorpal> "This product is not OS X compatible." http://www.ambrosiasw.com/games/evo/
00:28:46 <alise> hmph, that Doom crashes Basilisk II
00:29:03 <Vorpal> alise, it is the best space exploration / epic story / space battle game I ever played
00:29:12 <Vorpal> alise, has some RPG qualities maybe
00:29:19 <Vorpal> though I would not call it an RPG
00:29:31 <Vorpal> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escape_Velocity_Override
00:29:33 <fizzie> Speaking of maps, there's a rather funny map of Morrowind with the Google Maps eggine, at http://www.uesp.net/maps/mwmap/mwmap.shtml -- it's less epic in scope, of course.
00:29:38 <Sgeo> Mac OS 8.5 For Dummies
00:29:42 <alise> lol @ NetHack Defaults
00:30:10 <alise> oh sweet! you can enable a tty-style interface
00:30:17 <alise> as opposed to the multi-window one
00:30:31 <fizzie> Vorpal: A game in the Elder Scrolls saga. A modern thing, 2002 or so.
00:30:32 <Sgeo> "If you don't know how to turn your Mac on, get help."
00:30:38 <Sgeo> "Don't feel bad."
00:30:41 <Vorpal> Sgeo, where did it say that?
00:30:58 <Vorpal> Sgeo, chapter 1 of *what*
00:31:02 <alise> <Sgeo> Mac OS 8.5 For Dummies
00:31:05 <Sgeo> The book I just said
00:31:22 <Sgeo> On my neglected bookshelf
00:31:31 <Vorpal> alise, anyway if you can somehow get the chance to play ev override it is a must
00:32:04 <Vorpal> alise, the FOSS 3D game vegastrike had kind of same ambitions I feel but it seems dead and didn't nearly reach the same levels
00:32:21 <Vorpal> in fact the mission system was very incomplete in vegastrike
00:32:25 <Sgeo> I love the Vegastrike music
00:32:35 <Vorpal> Sgeo, nah. I prefer wesnoth music
00:32:42 <Sgeo> Wesnoth music is great too
00:32:49 <Sgeo> Hell, all game music is great
00:32:52 <Vorpal> Sgeo, the game *could* have been awesome with more work
00:33:07 <Sgeo> I think I opened it.. once, maybe
00:33:20 <Vorpal> Sgeo, I played it quite a bit, still quite fun
00:34:30 <Vorpal> EV override is top-down 2D though
00:34:57 * Sgeo curses his toe
00:35:03 <fizzie> Oh, and there's the Ultima 7 map, which is a 24576x24576 pixel image.
00:35:09 <Sgeo> It occurs to me that I have ~6 hours of school on Mondays
00:35:40 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble asc ord test
00:35:53 <fizzie> ais523: We have that thing, too.
00:36:04 <fizzie> It doesn't do hex, though.
00:36:24 <Vorpal> alise, anyway, you heard of spiderweb software before?
00:36:26 <Sgeo> What's the syntax for other-based numbers in Smalltalk? 5r1234?
00:36:35 <Sgeo> Or am I misremembering some other language's feature?
00:36:42 <alise> Vorpal: yeah. his blog is quite well-read
00:36:48 <alise> Sgeo: isn't it base#num?
00:36:51 <Vorpal> alise, a one guy company?
00:37:02 <Vorpal> alise, if so how the frack did he pull off those games
00:37:06 <pikhq> alise: So, this is now officially the least-sucky desktop experience I have seen on Linux.
00:37:17 <Sgeo> http://merd.sourceforge.net/pixel/language-study/syntax-across-languages-per-language/Smalltalk.html
00:37:23 <alise> http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/
00:37:30 <Vorpal> alise, there is extensive dialogue, lots of detailed seemingly hand made maps
00:37:53 <alise> pikhq: it may not be sucky, but it's not very ... useful either
00:37:56 <alise> like, it does very little for you
00:37:59 <Vorpal> alise, surely it would take a 2 or 3 person team, one artist, one programmer and someone working on map and stories
00:38:05 <pikhq> It's beautiful: there's hardly anything to it!
00:38:06 <Vorpal> alise, I can't imagine it being done with less
00:38:12 <Vorpal> alise, even if he never sleeps
00:38:22 <Sgeo> I just realized the source of the thing I posted
00:38:29 <alise> Vorpal: or, maybe he just works on games for years and years :P
00:38:34 <alise> pikhq: You will grow to mildly detest it soon enough.
00:38:35 <Sgeo> alise, it's from the people behind your favorite language!
00:38:43 <alise> XFCE is a strange void of emotion.
00:38:47 <Vorpal> alise, there are too many in the avernum series for that now
00:38:50 <pikhq> alise: You're talking to someone who used Ratpoison for years.
00:38:53 <alise> merd isn't my favourite language
00:39:04 <pikhq> "Does very little" is *not* a bad thing to me.
00:39:14 <alise> Vorpal: "Since then, has written many games, including the Exile, Geneforge, and Avernum series and Nethergate: Resurrection."
00:39:19 <alise> But it does very little in an odd kind of way.
00:39:21 <alise> I can't articulate it.
00:39:44 <alise> pikhq: BTW, the /best/ Linux UI is ROX Desktop. Unfortunately, it's sort of incomplete.
00:39:52 <alise> Specifically, it lacks a window manager. Or much software at all.
00:39:59 <alise> (It's heavily inspired by RISC OS.)
00:40:36 <alise> pikhq: It's a filesystem-based DE (rather than an abstract, window-based one like GNOME/KDE/XFCE/etc.)
00:40:47 <alise> [[The first of these features is support for Application Directories. An application directory is a directory which contains an entire application -- its documentation, binaries, source code and so on. When you open an application directory in the filer the application is run. This has some interesting implications:]] ;; it's like OS X .apps, but much better done
00:41:12 <alise> e.g. root privilege for installing apps is never really exercised (you can do without it anyway but it's a pain)
00:41:26 <alise> you don't really need a package manager since it's all copying/deleting, and it's easy to have multiple versions of the same app
00:41:51 <alise> oh, and it has a standardised documentation system (choosing Help in the context menu opens the Help subdirectory of the app)
00:42:01 <alise> this also leads to easy support for things like Zero Install and the like
00:42:04 <Vorpal> alise, geneforge rocks too
00:42:09 <Vorpal> alise, only played a demo version
00:42:18 <alise> pikhq: Oh, and the rather awesome "drag-and-drop saving".
00:42:22 <Vorpal> alise, what is "since then" relative btw?
00:42:36 <alise> You /drag the open file/ from the application into a folder. It prompts for a name. And that's it, it's saved.
00:42:52 <alise> Funny what taking a metaphor and then rolling with it can leave you with.
00:44:13 <Vorpal> alise, and yes the avernum series (1, 2, 3, blades of avernum [those ran on classic Mac OS, never played avernum 4 or later]), and especially avernum 2 is my all time favourite of computer games. In all genres
00:44:18 <alise> <Vorpal> alise, what is "since then" relative btw?
00:44:22 <alise> since founding Spiderweb
00:44:43 <oerjan> Sgeo: well if my lotion suggestion from yesterday didn't work, i suppose the next step is amputation. hth.
00:44:59 <Vorpal> alise, warning though, avernum 1 and 2 runs perfectly on sheepshaver. avernum 3 only with sdl (but that crashes due to bugginess) and blades of avernum not at all
00:45:05 <Vorpal> so for the last two I get out my ibook
00:45:11 <Sgeo> oerjan, it isn't working permanently
00:45:35 <oerjan> alise: now you're just talking piss
00:46:06 <Vorpal> alise, and after the avernum series comes nethack on shared place with ev override
00:46:23 <Vorpal> different genres though
00:46:47 <Vorpal> NWN ranks up near the top too I have to say. Top 5 definitely
00:47:27 <Vorpal> I have to say that the story in the original NWN campaign is rather shallow though
00:47:41 <ais523> Vorpal: it's not really about the story
00:48:16 <Vorpal> ais523, what exactly is it about then
00:48:31 <Vorpal> well which parts of it
00:48:42 <Vorpal> the story and advancing it is a part of gameplay as well
00:49:06 <alise> Yeah, because Doom's story had an effect on its gameplay.
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00:49:27 <Vorpal> but the story in NWN does
00:49:55 <Vorpal> alise, you can't say that the story of lemmings or the story of final fantasy 3 have the same importance to the gameplay surely?
00:50:03 <alise> Lemmings had a /story/?
00:50:17 <Vorpal> alise, iirc yes, like a paragraph or something
00:50:20 <Vorpal> might misremember though
00:50:26 <Vorpal> alise, still you get my point?
00:51:08 <Vorpal> avernum has a rather deep and epic story which is intricately woven into the other aspects of gameplay.
00:51:41 <Vorpal> alise, avernum 2 is one of the few games I thought after playing "there is no way this could have been made even better than it was"
00:53:11 <Vorpal> the other few ones were other games I thought that about were avernum 3 and ev override. (Avernum 1 had some rough edges in the interface compared to the later games in the series, that meant it could be improved, but only in minor aspects)
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00:53:31 <Vorpal> alise, really you should try the demos in sheepshaver when you get it running.
00:54:08 <Vorpal> alise, exile, while basically the same story and working under 68k, are less well balanced gameplay-wise and has a more annoying user interface.
00:54:34 <alise> I still want some more programs for System 7 :(
00:54:50 <Vorpal> alise, you don't have it yet?
00:54:58 <alise> But I want more programs to run on it.
00:55:45 <Vorpal> alise, I suspect ev override won't work in sheepshaver, though I haven't tried
00:56:03 <Vorpal> alise, it has a rather curious shareware mechanism though
00:56:36 <Vorpal> alise, after the time expired a space pirate starts messing up for you in the game.
00:56:50 <Vorpal> like credit fraud with your bank account there
00:57:18 <Vorpal> alise, before it expires he sometimes fly by you and reminds you to pay
00:58:12 * alise tries to find Graphing Calculator
00:58:26 <Vorpal> alise, not in 68k iirc?
00:58:30 <Vorpal> alise, it was PPC only
00:58:35 <Vorpal> alise, to show case the new PPC
00:58:41 <Vorpal> the abilities of it I mean
00:58:47 <Vorpal> alise, pretty sure I read that somewhere
00:59:08 <alise> Feel left out of the math graphing fun? The original 1.0 version did exist for 68k Macs, and you can download it here from Pacifit Tech's web site (scroll to the bottom).
00:59:10 <Vorpal> http://www.avernum.com/avernum6/images/A6StoreRoom.jpg <-- that looks more like genforge style graphics than avernum style to me
00:59:11 <alise> well ... there you go :P
00:59:41 <Vorpal> alise, they need to learn about <a name="..."/>
00:59:41 <alise> http://www.pacifict.com/images/taylor.gif
00:59:52 <alise> http://www.pacifict.com/Secrets.html#Taylor
00:59:55 <alise> which is quite close
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01:00:02 <Vorpal> alise, you said "scroll to the bottom"
01:00:02 <alise> that's not for 1.0
01:00:14 <Vorpal> alise, that is what I commented upon
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01:00:33 <alise> Version 1.0 is the original release which has shipped on over 10,000,000 machines since 1994. It is the last version available for 680x0 Macintosh computers.
01:00:33 <alise> Download 1.0 for 680x0
01:00:33 <alise> Download 1.0 for Power Macintosh
01:00:38 <alise> http://www.pacifict.com/gc68k.sit.bin
01:00:39 <alise> http://www.pacifict.com/gc10.sit.hqx
01:01:30 <alise> it tells me i should use the one designed for macintoshes with FPUs :)
01:01:33 <alise> for better performance
01:01:36 <alise> ofc that's not distributed it seems
01:02:03 <alise> Vorpal: works great
01:02:35 <alise> can simplify and everything
01:03:10 <Vorpal> alise, also are you sure about your hypothetical interest in myst? After all I seem to remember you said that you didn't have the patience to play it?
01:03:27 <alise> Vorpal: I only want it to experience the hypercard amazingness.
01:03:46 <Vorpal> alise, that makes me sad
01:04:30 <alise> translucency on system 7
01:04:31 <Sgeo> alise, play Uru!
01:04:59 <Vorpal> alise, it feels all wrong to use the myst cd in this computer
01:05:05 <Vorpal> alise, it doesn't sound right
01:05:14 <Vorpal> it doesn't sound like a perfoma 4x drive seeking
01:05:28 <Vorpal> which is something I *strongly* associate with myst
01:05:46 <Vorpal> alise, it just isn't the same without that sound
01:06:20 <Vorpal> alise, besides graphics are dithered... They don't look halfway as good on a super sharp TFT as they did on that old CRT
01:06:59 <fizzie> Just apply some gaussian blur on it.
01:07:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, what about the CD sound
01:07:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, a faint hum from the CRT also
01:07:36 <alise> Vorpal: record the CD sound, patch it to play it and wait a few seconds at scene changes
01:07:39 <alise> record a faint CRT hum too
01:07:39 <Vorpal> though getting the CD noise right is WAY more important
01:07:42 <fizzie> If you can find a Performa, maybe you could record the sounds and play them back.
01:07:45 <Vorpal> alise, I don't have the performa any more
01:07:51 <alise> lol @ arbitrary delay though
01:08:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, didn't you have one?
01:08:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, I believe it was almost same model
01:09:06 <alise> ais523: you know the mathematica thing where you can animate a graph/plot based on a variable increasing?
01:09:07 <fizzie> Vorpal: I sold mine too, some four or so years ago. I only keep one machine per cpu family (excepting x86), and the iBook was easier to store. :p
01:09:17 <alise> yeah, NuCalc had that in 1994.
01:09:48 <fizzie> Vorpal: It went to a good home, I'm sure.
01:10:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, what is CD-ROM sector size? (data)
01:11:20 <Vorpal> for dd copying the myst cd (for backup purposes only)
01:13:57 <alise> SmoothType 2.3.1 Now with subpixel smoothing for LCD screens!
01:13:57 <alise> Brings Mac OS X style font smoothing to System 7 through Mac OS 9.2.
01:14:01 <alise> Vorpal: Where's your god now?
01:14:47 <alise> Vorpal: You said 9 was good because it had antialiasing.
01:14:48 <Vorpal> alise, well yes there are always madmens out there
01:14:50 <alise> Well, so does 7 up!
01:14:58 <fizzie> 2048 for ISO data tracks, IIRC.
01:15:17 <alise> Pfft. Who didn't have a few extensions in thos edays?
01:15:37 <Vorpal> alise, well.. stock OS came with several
01:15:44 <alise> Vorpal: A bigger issue is that I'm not certain it works with the default fonts.
01:15:55 * Sgeo now worships Trog
01:16:50 <alise> It does work with them.
01:17:03 <alise> Although the default font is slightly hideous in it.
01:18:03 <alise> The subpixel smoothing is... uh, unique.
01:18:14 <alise> Very ... very blue.
01:18:29 <alise> Vorpal: But still, this is a CRT, it blurs away all the imperfections.
01:18:52 <Vorpal> alise, you are on a CRT?!
01:19:01 <fizzie> Hypothetically, if I had started to download that mac myst .dmg from the nautical bit-sharing place, I estimate it would now be at around 46% done, and have an ETA of 1 hour, 45 minutes. But I stress that this is a purely hypothetical scenario.
01:19:06 <alise> But an old Mac user is.
01:19:30 <alise> Hypothetically, I have sex with, and then kill, young children.
01:19:34 <alise> Hypothetically, mind you.
01:19:42 <alise> LOL @ 2-bit smoothing
01:19:47 <alise> That does not work, SmoothType.
01:19:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm I have a iso here for backup purposes
01:19:54 <alise> It literally destroys the text.
01:19:59 <alise> Utterly unreadable, not just in the "really ugly" sense.
01:20:04 <alise> Some characters are actually unrecognisable.
01:20:23 <Vorpal> sha512sum /dev/sr0 myst.iso
01:20:34 <Vorpal> alise, the ISO is 549 MB btw
01:20:39 <alise> the antialiasing helps NuCalc a lot
01:21:13 <Vorpal> alise, so you said system 7 has as good AA as OS 9 eh?
01:21:30 <alise> Sure, if you use a good font.
01:21:36 <alise> Vorpal: anyway, that's just 2-bit
01:21:38 <alise> i.e. two colour antialiasing
01:21:40 <alise> i.e. stupidest idea ever
01:21:44 <alise> 4-bit smoothing looks fine
01:21:48 <alise> Vorpal: it's only bad on an lcd
01:21:51 <alise> since the sharp edges look weird
01:21:53 <alise> on a crt, it'd be great
01:22:01 <alise> especially at large type sizes it's very smooth
01:22:03 <Vorpal> alise, I only used OS 9 on a LCD
01:22:15 <alise> meh, it's still good on an lcd
01:22:16 <Vorpal> alise, as in, ibook first gen
01:22:28 <alise> well that's such a bad lcd who can tell :)
01:22:37 <Vorpal> "<alise> It literally destroys the text." "<alise> Some characters are actually unrecognisable." ... "<alise> just a bit weird"
01:22:44 <alise> that's 2-bit, Vorpal
01:22:44 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/rfk86/screen_splash.png -- anti-aliasing on a technically 1-bit screen. (In the "rfk86" text, on a slow enough LCD so that you can get shades by alternating frames. The screenshot's just emulated, of course.)
01:22:47 <alise> black and white antialiasing
01:22:49 <alise> it has three modes
01:22:52 <alise> 4-bit (reasonable greyscale)
01:23:04 <alise> 2-bit (WTF????? Why did he even release this??? It's literally useless)
01:23:13 <alise> Subpixel (I guess it's okay if you have a really weird TFT)
01:23:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, known good sha512sum for iso of myst with dd: 07c4103829b4dd17dcee3245d80e8c35d0663b06c632c4cdc56c81b8588cea5554af1e8b9dff1f617912bf7606078004731f8a939081a12a59121c4c95eb11f8
01:23:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, if that is of any use to you
01:23:35 <alise> sha512sum. you're crazy
01:23:51 <Vorpal> alise, md5sum would be crazier
01:23:54 <alise> hmm, a good checksum hash would have similar strings have similar hashes
01:23:59 <alise> why? so you can measure how damaged it is
01:24:03 <alise> by how much the hashes differ
01:24:10 <alise> although collisions would be deadly
01:24:18 <Vorpal> alise, that defeats the purpose of hashes yeah
01:25:00 <fizzie> I can check against the hypothetical .dmg when it's done, but it might of course be a slightly different release, and anyway I'd have to unwrap the .dmg compression I think it has.
01:25:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, you mean you could hypothetically check against the hypothetical .dmg when it's hypothetically done?
01:26:12 <alise> did anyone make a nicer window manager for classic mac os? :P
01:26:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, that would be less than a normal yes?
01:26:29 <alise> say ... Basilisk II/Sheepshaver don't necessarily have to run Mac OS, do they?
01:26:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, using the usual hypo/hyper pair
01:26:35 <alise> anyone want to run Debian/PPC? :-D
01:26:42 <fizzie> It's 396.6 megahybytes, and the hyploader said it's from a 1993 Hyst release.
01:26:47 <Vorpal> alise, I doubt that works
01:26:57 <alise> it doesn't do anything mac-specific does it?
01:26:59 <alise> the emulators that is
01:27:10 <Vorpal> alise, well... they don't emulate the real hardware
01:27:11 <alise> Cyst, the long-awaited sequel to Myst
01:27:17 <alise> Vorpal: well, true
01:27:19 <fizzie> PearPC runs Debian/PPC, IIRC.
01:27:27 <alise> Vorpal: but what about the PPC bootloader that runs as an extension or whatever
01:27:40 <alise> it still emulates all the instructions, right?
01:27:41 <Vorpal> alise, after all you can't do 9.1 or later in sheepshaver because 9.1 starts using the MMU
01:28:03 <Vorpal> alise, which sheepshaver doesn't emulate more than required for 9.0 and older
01:28:09 <Vorpal> which was just filling in a single page iirc
01:28:20 <Vorpal> alise, and linux probably wants a good MMU
01:28:28 <Vorpal> alise, so yeah not likely to get that working
01:28:56 <Sgeo> My Troll Berserker is dead
01:29:58 <fizzie> Oh, and qemu-ppc also runs Linux/PPC distros.
01:31:13 <alise> fizzie: Well, that much is obvious.
01:31:35 <Vorpal> alise, wait, do your graphics system and monitor support at least 256 colours. Otherwise you won't be able to run myst
01:31:38 <Vorpal> better check to make sure
01:32:00 <Vorpal> hypothetically that is
01:32:20 <alise> Vorpal: They support at least 257!
01:32:51 <Vorpal> indeed that's impressive
01:34:09 <fizzie> Heh, qemu-system-m68k emulates oh-so-popular-and-useful hardware: http://p.zem.fi/qemu-sys-m68k
01:34:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, never heard of the two latter ones
01:35:29 <Vorpal> <alise> it still emulates all the instructions, right? <-- and I don't think so either.
01:35:43 <Vorpal> alise, you can't run macbug in either of basiliskII or sheepshaver
01:36:05 <Vorpal> err forgot a plural s there I think
01:36:10 <fizzie> "syborg Syborg (Symbian Virtual Platform)" (from qemu-system-arm); wonder who's responsible for the name.
01:36:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, maybe the same guy as liboobs?
01:37:10 <alise> [[Any body suspended in space will remain in space until made aware of its situation. (The character walks off the edge of a cliff, remains suspended in midair, and doesn't fall until he looks down.)
01:37:10 <alise> Any body passing through solid matter will leave a perforation conforming to its perimeter (the "silhouette of passage").
01:37:10 <alise> Certain bodies can pass through solid walls painted to resemble tunnel entrances; others cannot. (Corollary: Portable holes work.)
01:37:10 <alise> All principles of gravity are negated by fear. (i.e., scaring someone causes them to jump impossibly high in the air.)
01:37:12 <alise> Any violent rearrangement of feline matter is impermanent. (In other words, cats heal fast and/or have an infinite number of lives.)
01:37:15 <alise> Everything falls faster than an anvil. (A falling anvil will always land directly upon the character's head, squashing him flat or driving him into the ground.)]]
01:37:44 <fizzie> Sounds like that cartoon physics axioms page.
01:38:07 <alise> Specific reference to cartoon physics extends back at least to June of 1980, when an article "O'Donnell's Laws of Cartoon Motion"[2] appeared in Esquire. A version printed in 1994 by the IEEE in a journal for engineers helped spread the word among the technical crowd, which has expanded and refined the idea. These laws are outlined on dozens of websites.
01:38:07 <alise> O'Donnell's examples include:
01:39:28 <alise> i don't have a link
01:41:04 <Vorpal> 525M → 307M, not too bad
01:45:26 <alise> Vorpal: challenge: recreate the Good Easy -- http://web.archive.org/web/20080328152949/http://www.winterspeak.com/columns/goodeasy.txt
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01:47:36 <alise> OrgASM is a set of files comprising a Universal Table driven Cross
01:47:36 <alise> Assembler for all MicroProcessors. The assembler is a port of the DOS TASM
01:47:36 <alise> with a graphic interface and EPROM downloading added. This suite runs under
01:47:36 <alise> Macintosh Programmers Workshop (now supplied free by Apple) and may also be
01:47:36 <alise> integrated into BBEdit using the ToolServer menu. All microprocessor tables
01:47:37 <alise> are in external text files and may extended or customised by the user.
01:47:40 <alise> TASM for Macintosh!
01:49:11 <alise> "BBEdit requires a PowerPC processor."
01:49:23 <alise> I'll just use 3.5.1 then
01:51:12 <augur> remind me of your opinions on scheme
01:51:29 <alise> cool shit! useless in today's stupid software culture
01:51:55 <augur> so you're an R5RS fan then
01:52:04 <Vorpal> <alise> Vorpal: challenge: recreate the Good Easy -- http://web.archive.org/web/20080328152949/http://www.winterspeak.com/columns/goodeasy.txt <-- ?
01:52:53 <alise> augur: of course. who isn't?
01:53:17 <Vorpal> alise, it isn't how I like it
01:53:20 <augur> alise: im teaching a SICP class to some friends
01:53:21 <alise> Vorpal: it would just be fun to try and recreate it
01:53:25 <Vorpal> alise, so I don't take that challenge
01:53:40 <Vorpal> alise, I want resedit alias on desktop for example
01:55:47 <alise> Fun fact: The Finder has no preferences.
01:56:25 <alise> augur: not in classic Mac OS, at least
01:56:32 <alise> (pah OS X! barely even counts as Mac OS)
01:56:38 <alise> (I see no traces of System Software 6 in there!)
01:56:47 <coppro> you can't, say, make it show hidden files
01:56:52 <alise> coppro: there are no hidden files
01:57:01 * augur caresses his NeXTstation
01:57:05 <alise> also, it has one or two View options, but they apply to the current folder
01:57:12 <alise> specifically, it's just icon vs list view
01:58:34 <coppro> it doesn't hide .* then?
01:58:40 <alise> coppro: it's not Unix-based; why would it?
01:58:49 <alise> Windows doesn't hide .* either
01:59:02 <alise> in a more subtle sense it has a great number of hidden files, i.e. resource forks
01:59:05 <alise> and those are quite hard to get at
01:59:24 <alise> Vorpal: wow, you can get Network Time for OS 7 :)
01:59:35 <alise> Network Time contacts a time server using the Apple MacTCP network software to get the correct time of day. Network Time automatically adjusts your clock taking into consideration the time zone and the daylight savings time rules that you configure using the Network Time control panel.
02:00:00 <alise> proper NTP and everything
02:02:11 <Vorpal> <alise> Vorpal: wow, you can get Network Time for OS 7 :) <-- hm nice
02:02:22 <Vorpal> alise, won't need it in sheepshaver or basiliskII
02:02:32 <Vorpal> alise, I don't think drifting is a problem in them
02:02:51 <Vorpal> alise, the ROM stuff is too high level for that to become a problem for the system clock
02:02:59 <Vorpal> you can work around it basically
02:10:33 <Vorpal> alise, see you tomorrow then
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02:11:30 <Vorpal> tried to work this out
02:11:47 <Vorpal> I don't have rot13(1) on here
02:12:11 <Vorpal> alise, what is it then
02:15:03 <pikhq> http://www.theonion.com/articles/bush-our-long-national-nightmare-of-peace-and-pros,464/ This was prescient. Fuck.
02:16:38 <coppro> pikhq: video game censorship laws before SCOTUS... whee
02:16:48 <pikhq> "Much work lies ahead of us: The gap between the rich and the poor may be wide, be there's much more widening left to do. We must squander our nation's hard-won budget surplus on tax breaks for the wealthiest 15 percent. And, on the foreign front, we must find an enemy and defeat it."
02:16:54 <pikhq> THAT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE A JOKE
02:19:09 <alise> coppro: but you're in Canada, dude.
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02:19:44 <ais523> well, you wouldn't flee to Europe if you were already there
02:19:50 <coppro> alise: Yes! Right next to them!
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02:20:52 <coppro> The only reason I'm not actually afraid of an American invasion is because Europe exists!
02:22:28 <pikhq> coppro: Oh, you guys are sure to be way down the list. Likewise with Europe.
02:22:58 <pikhq> We prefer targets that won't actually fight back hardcore. Which is why we avoid nuclear powers.
02:23:07 <pikhq> And pretty much any developed nation.
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02:26:18 <alise> pikhq: hmm... in Haskell, how would you code something that generates [(Int(eger),Char)] such that the integer at position n is the number of alphabetical characters proceeding it, plus 1?
02:26:38 <alise> proceeding it and including it
02:26:54 <alise> i.e. "a,!bc" -> [(1,'a'),(1,','),(1,'!'),(2,'b'),(3,'c')]
02:32:45 <coppro> pikhq: /we/ can't fight back
02:33:27 <coppro> the only real reason we won't get attacked every is because it would alienate the planet
02:38:47 <oerjan> !haskell import Data.Char; munch l = zip (scanl (+) 1 $ map (fromEnum . isAlpha) l) l; main = print $ munch "a,!bc"
02:38:56 <EgoBot> [(1,'a'),(2,','),(2,'!'),(2,'b'),(3,'c')]
02:39:28 <alise> oerjan: thou failest so
02:39:34 <alise> it doesn't matter in this case
02:39:44 <oerjan> um wait you said preceeding but meant preceding or same
02:39:53 <alise> well actually it works fine here
02:39:55 <alise> <alise> proceeding it and including it
02:40:06 <alise> zip =<< scanl (+) 1 . map (fromEnum . isAlpha)
02:40:15 <oerjan> !haskell import Data.Char; munch l = zip (scanl1 (+) $ map (fromEnum . isAlpha) l) l; main = print $ munch "a,!bc"
02:40:21 <EgoBot> [(1,'a'),(1,','),(1,'!'),(2,'b'),(3,'c')]
02:40:36 <oerjan> er wait that was right
02:40:36 <alise> why are you going argh
02:40:47 <oerjan> compared with the wrong line :D
02:40:58 <pikhq> coppro: You guys have money. Our preferred targets have starvation.
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02:41:46 * coppro remembers the Canadian Caper
02:42:11 <oerjan> alise: using the -> monad would require another import btw
02:42:15 <pikhq> Besides, you guys burned down the White House. Clearly you can fight back.
02:42:25 <alise> oerjan: yeah, indeed
02:43:28 <oerjan> some people _might_ consider using fromEnum on a Bool a bit hacky ;D
02:44:09 <alise> i just noticed that
02:44:21 <alise> oerjan: well the booleans are just N mod 2 right????
02:44:28 <alise> totally mathematically justified dude
02:48:09 <alise> oerjan: Zqxv wkdian qae kgykaga odxr boeg lw ynpa. Qyh xhrxsignmgu rlcesrdmi evc jbp.
02:48:42 <pikhq> coppro: Yeah, we've got mercenaries too.
02:48:53 <pikhq> All over Iraq, in fact.
02:49:01 <oerjan> gah do we have any rot13 bot
02:49:15 <EgoBot> userinterps: Users can add interpreters written in any of the languages in !help languages. See !help addinterp, delinterp, show | !userinterps. List interpreters added with !addinterp.
02:49:25 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: aol austro b1ff bc bct bfbignum brit brooklyn bypass_ignore bytes chaos chef chiqrsx9p choo cockney ctcp dc decisionengine drawl drome dubya echo eehird ehird fudd funetak google graph gregor he hello id jethro kraut num ook pansy pi pirate plot postmodern postmodern_aoler redneck reverse rot13 sadbf sfedeesh sffedeesh sffffedeesh sffffffffedeesh simpleacro slashes svedeesh swedish valspeak warez yodawg
02:49:38 <oerjan> !rot13 Zqxv wkdian qae kgykaga odxr boeg lw ynpa. Qyh xhrxsignmgu rlcesrdmi evc jbp.
02:49:40 <EgoBot> Mdki jxqvna dnr xtlxntn bqke obrt yj lacn. Dlu kuekfvtazth eyprfeqzv rip woc.
02:50:05 <oerjan> ok so presumably that was related to your haskell question
02:50:19 <alise> oerjan: only to make writing cyphers easy
02:50:26 <alise> previously the punctuation was messing up the count
02:50:53 * oerjan is too lazy to try harder
02:51:29 <pikhq> xbaavgvun, zvaanfnzn. xvklbh g'bh lnkghgrveh xn.
02:54:49 <alise> !rot13 xbaavgvun, zvaanfnzn. xvklbh g'bh lnkghgrveh xn.
02:54:49 <EgoBot> konnitiha, minnasama. kixyou t'ou yaxtuteiru ka.
02:55:01 <alise> pikhq: either lojban or my cypher?
02:55:23 <oerjan> that looks too japanese to be an accident
02:55:32 <Gregor> It is axiomatic that well-encrypted text is indistinguishable from Lojban.
02:56:26 <pikhq> oerjan: I just thought rot13'd Japanese would look funny. And it did.
02:56:53 <pikhq> alise: LOJBANCYPHER
02:57:21 <alise> <EgoBot> konnitiha, minnasama. kixyou t'ou yaxtuteiru ka.
02:57:24 <alise> jmkjdnbzr, cxbamdkvi. roccrw u'ot wxtoomwzhj yn
02:57:32 <alise> this probably makes it easy to decode.
02:58:03 <oerjan> well given you already revealed you needed the positions...
03:01:04 <alise> oerjan: i assume you've decoded it, then
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03:04:10 <alise> Sgeo: pikhq: I'm about to play NetHack from the comfortable interface of a 68k Macintosh on nethack.eu.
03:04:34 <Sgeo> Yay, alise is finally using a server
03:04:54 <Sgeo> Ooh, colorful screen
03:05:03 <Sgeo> Sorry, no games available for viewing
03:05:57 <Sgeo> Also, try Crawl
03:06:01 <Sgeo> Troll Berserkers are fun
03:06:09 <alise> ok, about to start
03:06:25 <alise> now to get graphics to work
03:06:33 <Sgeo> s wasn't stripping anything
03:06:46 <alise> are you connected?
03:06:58 <Sgeo> And PuTTY was set up for IBMGraphics
03:07:13 <Sgeo> And not DECgraphics apparently
03:07:22 <alise> looks like i have to use the ansi PC font to get any kind of graphics
03:07:36 <alise> which is slightly problematic as it doesn't scale well
03:07:58 <Sgeo> Is it possible for you to put Dejavu Sans Mono on?
03:08:12 <alise> and besides, it wouldn't have the right charset
03:08:17 <alise> this one has the ansi ones mapped to the right ones
03:08:21 <alise> so it works with decgraphics
03:08:27 <alise> Sgeo: no unicode in old mac os...
03:08:35 <Sgeo> Dejavu Sans Mono works fine with IBMgraphics for me... hmm
03:08:45 <Sgeo> I thought IBMgraphics didn't use unicode?
03:08:49 * Sgeo is thoroughly confused
03:08:58 <alise> it doesn't, which is why i'm using it
03:08:59 <Sgeo> Yet happy that he knows how to spell thoroughly
03:09:09 <alise> tl;dr putty does clever stuff
03:10:22 <alise> this works surprisingly well
03:10:57 <Sgeo> You should always use a server ;)
03:11:07 <Sgeo> Although really, nethack.eu seems a bit inactive
03:11:11 <alise> i meant "on the macintosh"
03:11:16 <alise> nethack.eu is the only option for people in europe
03:11:20 <alise> nethack.alt.org is impossibly slow
03:11:44 <Sgeo> Is crawl.akrasiac.org impossibly slow for Europeans?
03:12:03 <Sgeo> WHY DOESN'T NETHACK.EU HAVE STRIPPING?
03:12:18 <alise> no grpahics is easiest with this
03:12:20 <Sgeo> Oh, you had both DEC and IBM on at once?
03:12:38 <ais523> alise: nethack.fi is a different option in europe
03:12:46 <ais523> but it's even more inactive than nethack.eu
03:12:48 <Sgeo> So then why did it stop being weird yet you were using DEC?
03:12:56 <Sgeo> ais523, more inactive than dead?
03:13:21 <alise> ais523: this may be the first time anyone's played a recent version of NetHack on a 68k Mac OS.
03:13:25 <alise> nethack.eu isn't dead, Sgeo
03:13:29 <alise> it's 3:13 am in the UK
03:13:35 <alise> even later/earlier in other parts of europe
03:15:11 <ais523> "alise68k" is your NEU username?
03:15:16 <alise> ais523: on this machine it is
03:15:32 <ais523> people normally share NetHack accounts across machines
03:15:36 <ais523> it's one of the reasons to play online
03:15:36 <alise> I have no graphics on atm; I can use IBMgraphics, but only with a font with awkward sizes (multiples of 8pt or multiples of 10pt)
03:15:40 <alise> ais523: yes, but I forgot my password to "alise".
03:16:15 <alise> i'm only playing for the novelty of the machine, anyway :P
03:19:11 <alise> Never seen that before.
03:19:27 -!- zzo38 has joined.
03:19:46 <zzo38> I have now designed all of the blackboard bold letters, except for "S".
03:19:54 <alise> you're /making your own typeface/?
03:20:54 <zzo38> Here it is, so far: http://sprunge.us/HKfN
03:21:05 <alise> Sgeo: I'll try Crawl now. Where did you say?
03:21:19 <Sgeo> crawk.akrasiac.org
03:21:20 <zzo38> Now I learned METAFONT, and really it is best program for designing a typeface.
03:21:25 <alise> zzo38: And webmath_bbb?
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03:21:36 <alise> Sgeo: That's okay; I'm using MacSSH.
03:21:55 <Sgeo> Wait, how'd your NH char die?
03:21:57 <Sgeo> I wasn't watching
03:22:05 <zzo38> http://sprunge.us/caVi
03:22:12 <alise> Also, *crawl., presumably.
03:22:40 <alise> zzo38: Care to make a .dvi or .ps showcasing these characters?
03:23:21 <alise> The connection ends immediately. Hm.
03:23:50 <zzo38> Do you have METAFONT? If you have METAFONT, generate the .dvi by yourself.
03:24:05 <Sgeo> I didn't typo crawl.akrasiac.org besides the crawl, did I?
03:24:10 <Sgeo> ^copy/pasted from the website
03:25:11 <zzo38> You can make any suggestion for improvement, if you have any suggestion about the typeface, and other comment, just suggest it, or else write a code and I might include it if I want to
03:25:21 <alise> Perhaps it dislikes my SSH client.
03:25:25 <alise> Sgeo: any other Crawl servers?
03:25:30 <alise> zzo38: I don't have METAFONT, which is the issue.
03:25:36 <zzo38> alise: What SSH client are you using?
03:25:40 <alise> It would be quite convenient if you could prepare a .dvi.
03:25:44 <alise> zzo38: MacSSH on Mac OS 7.6.1.
03:25:49 <zzo38> alise: Do you have a DVI viewing software? If so, yes I will post it
03:25:56 <Sgeo> CDO and.. something else
03:26:03 <Sgeo> Oooh, CDO is in Europe, fwiw
03:26:20 <Sgeo> crawl.develz.org
03:26:24 <Sgeo> telnet port 345
03:26:42 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/webmath/webmath.dvi
03:26:58 <alise> Sgeo: Crawl doesn't use any PC-specific characters, right?
03:27:10 <Sgeo> alise, not by default, I think
03:27:13 <alise> zzo38: "DVI document has incorrect format"... how strange.
03:27:16 <zzo38> alise: I think Crawl can be configured both ways
03:27:17 <alise> Sgeo: Can it be configured to?
03:27:30 <Sgeo> It has options for IBM I _think_ and Unicode for certain
03:28:08 <zzo38> alise: I don't know why the DVI document has incorrect format
03:28:13 <zzo38> It works on my computer.
03:29:44 <Sgeo> alise, trying, or not?
03:30:46 <Sgeo> On CAO, the options are 0.7.1 and 0.6.something
03:31:00 <Sgeo> And some variants or other
03:31:11 <alise> I'll play 0.7.1, then.
03:32:17 <alise> Sgeo: what configuration option changes the characters used?
03:32:49 <Sgeo> char set[1/2]: To change your character set to IBM, add "char_set = IBM" to your options. Then, if you use putty, you need to go to Window->Translation->Recieved data assumed to be in which character set: "CP437".
03:33:19 <Sgeo> <Henzell> char set[2/2]: For Unicode encoding, use "char_set = unicode", and make sure putty is set to receive data in "UTF-8" or your locale is "en_US.utf8".
03:33:36 <alise> is it possible to use plain ANSI?
03:33:43 <Sgeo> That's default, I think
03:33:52 <alise> Can it be changed in-game, do you know?
03:34:14 <zzo38> I am using PuTTY right now, as the terminal window for IRC. But PuTTY can also be used for SSH, Telnet, Rlogin.
03:34:16 <Sgeo> Y... you'd have to change the rc file, but Crawl reads the RC on each startup, not each new game
03:34:51 <alise> Okay, final question: wtf is Sprint?
03:35:07 <Sgeo> A variant, I think
03:35:08 <zzo38> (PuTTY uses xterm control codes, but when I try to run PHIRC in actual xterm, it doesn't work.)
03:35:59 <alise> Sgeo: Okay, now game-relevant questions. (You can tune in to alise64k on CDO now.)
03:36:02 <zzo38> Does the DVI file work now?
03:36:04 <alise> Which race is the easiest for new players?
03:36:08 <alise> zzo38: I'm installing stuff to make it work.
03:36:28 <zzo38> Try any race, if you don't like it, try another one.
03:36:37 <Sgeo> Merfolk Ice Elemental is what was recommended to me, but I'm having much more fun and finding it very easy as Troll Berserker
03:36:46 <Sgeo> Don't do Demigod
03:36:50 <alise> zzo38: I mean the analogue of Valkyrie Dwarf.
03:37:11 <Sgeo> Demigods sucks
03:37:44 * Sgeo wonders why Merfolk cna't be...
03:37:47 <alise> Why is Fighter blinking?
03:37:58 <Sgeo> Oh, the gray without N/A means "more difficult combination"
03:38:05 <Sgeo> It's just selected?
03:38:15 <alise> Now I need to figure out how to play it.
03:38:18 <Sgeo> Um, what's your terminal size?
03:38:22 <alise> Ew, okay, I really need some graphics or these #s will give me a seizure.
03:38:26 <alise> Sgeo: 80x24? Maybe?
03:38:33 <zzo38> I suppose, you can turn off blinking in the terminal emulator if you do not want blinking
03:39:05 <Sgeo> Also, yeah, things appeared mashed-up to me
03:40:30 <Sgeo> It's still being weird for me
03:41:11 <alise> zzo38: Is there not a way to show the character in normal text size, black?
03:41:11 <Sgeo> I see SH as being in inside the map
03:41:19 <alise> Sgeo: I just quit.
03:41:38 <alise> zzo38: I do not understand why some of your characters are serif and some are sans serif.
03:41:56 <alise> Sgeo: I /am/ playing from a 68k Mac OS...
03:42:42 <zzo38> alise: I made sans serif for more simple, but some are a bit serif because some such as "I" won't look good with sans serif
03:43:21 <zzo38> It is so that you can understand the letters more easily some of them by adding some serif
03:43:35 <alise> This probably reflects a bug in the program.
03:43:35 <alise> The error was 'XF86DGANoDirectVideoMode'.
03:47:02 <pikhq> zzo38: Whaddya mean?
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03:51:46 <pikhq> alise: http://soundcloud.com/ It's Youtube for music.
03:52:28 <alise> But oh so boringly legal.
03:53:04 <pikhq> If you want illegal you need a torrent.
03:57:20 <alise> Sgeo: broadcasting again
03:57:24 <alise> so i should search now, right?
03:57:31 <zzo38> pikhq: I mean, did you look? Maybe if you look, then you can know how I meant?
03:58:04 <Sgeo> PuTTY doesn't like it
03:58:49 <zzo38> pikhq: First, tell me, what specifically are you asking about? And then, maybe I can help?
03:58:57 <Sgeo> alise, not what I meant
03:59:04 <Sgeo> But it's having a lot of trouble with the layout
03:59:09 <Sgeo> Is it laying out properly for you?
03:59:33 <pikhq> zzo38: Okay, pulled up that font.
03:59:50 <Sgeo> It doesn't break the word information across a two lines for you?
04:00:01 <alise> i should serach now, right?
04:00:11 <Sgeo> Use x to look at your surroundings
04:00:15 <Sgeo> I'm not sure what those are
04:00:35 <alise> Just a stone staircase.
04:00:37 <pikhq> zzo38: The vertical line on the I should be longer. Also, I'd hesitate to call that a "serif". It's just part of the glyph.
04:00:39 <alise> But what's the thing that walks around for you?
04:00:59 <Sgeo> But right now I can't see a single thing that's going on
04:01:13 <alise> the thing that does all the tedious stuff
04:01:20 <zzo38> pikhq: That is OK, then don't call it a serif. The only vertical line on the I is the main vertical line.
04:01:28 <alise> that just asks me for a location
04:01:34 <pikhq> zzo38: Erm, s/vertical/horizontal/
04:01:57 <alise> Sgeo: Can I Elbereth?
04:02:04 <Sgeo> You can walk around pillars
04:02:07 <Sgeo> Like that one over there
04:02:11 <zzo38> OK. But I think the horizontal line is long enough
04:02:20 <Sgeo> See that square of 2 walls?
04:02:23 <Sgeo> Walk around it
04:02:37 <Sgeo> Although this is rather despised due to tedious scummy nature
04:02:49 <Sgeo> Also, I still can't see what's going on
04:02:59 <zzo38> The horizontal line on the top and bottom is programmed to be three times as long as the distance between the vertical lines.
04:03:00 <Sgeo> alise, to give you time to heal while K chases you
04:03:06 <Sgeo> Be sure to use diag movement
04:03:09 <alise> Sgeo: I don't know what you are talking about; what pillar?
04:03:36 <alise> I see no such thing.
04:03:45 <zzo38> If you think the line should be longer, how long do you think the line should be?
04:04:02 <alise> Wait, I have an idea. I'll quit this game.
04:04:13 <Sgeo> Ctrl-Q I think
04:04:24 <alise> to make this terminal bearable
04:04:45 <Sgeo> I don't see how the terminal you're using has such a drastic horrid effect
04:04:48 <pikhq> zzo38: Look at a monospace "I". That's about right.
04:04:58 <alise> is either tiny or unreadable
04:05:26 <zzo38> pikhq: OK. However, the blackboard bold letters in this font are not meant to be monospace.
04:06:05 <pikhq> zzo38: Yes. I'm just giving it as an example. Because I should be very, very distinct from "l" in all cases.
04:06:23 <zzo38> I do intend to include other stuff in the font, too, some of which might be monospace, such as "typewriter control graphics".
04:06:30 <pikhq> (and it looks really weird with it being so tiny and... Serif-like.)
04:06:32 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, I do agree with that.
04:07:16 <zzo38> But look at the top of the page, the Computer Modern font uses serifs on the top and bottom of "I" like that.
04:07:46 <Sgeo> Maybe we should ask for help in ##crawl ?
04:07:52 <alise> /I/ have no issues.
04:08:23 <Sgeo> Maybe it's my font somehow?
04:08:33 <alise> I'm using ASCII now.
04:08:34 <zzo38> If I change the program, what width do you suggest I program in for those lines? (Currently it is programmed to be three times the width between the two vertical lines)
04:08:47 <Sgeo> It's all screwed up
04:09:06 <alise> zzo38: I suggest twice instead.
04:10:04 <zzo38> alise: OK, well, pikhq suggests making it longer, you suggest shorter.... perhaps I will just keep it as it is, and let other people modify it if they don't like it.....
04:10:07 <Sgeo> http://i.imgur.com/Wa9nE.png
04:10:48 <alise> zzo38: restart your terminal, disable any conversion stuff
04:10:58 <zzo38> Sgeo: Maybe CRLF is misconfigured?
04:11:13 <zzo38> Or something else is misconfigured?
04:12:00 <Sgeo> alise, did you mean me instead of zzo?
04:13:03 <Sgeo> Maybe I can ask someone else
04:13:11 <Sgeo> Oh, and MfIE is a magic user
04:13:37 <Sgeo> Read spellbooks
04:13:45 <Sgeo> Spellbooks contain multiple spells
04:13:58 <Sgeo> To kill things?
04:14:07 <alise> Yeah, I don't actually know how to aim this shit...
04:14:21 <Sgeo> Aiming with freeze is just a direction, since it's range 1
04:14:50 <alise> How do you wait-until-something?
04:14:51 <Sgeo> May I ask in ##crawl if your game is screwy for anyone else?
04:14:53 <alise> That you talked about.
04:15:04 <Sgeo> (not on numpad, which needs shift-5)
04:15:40 <alise> How do you explore again? >_>
04:16:31 <Sgeo> I can barely see what's going on
04:16:43 <Sgeo> They're suggesting that there's a termsize thing
04:16:48 <alise> Sgeo: http://imgur.com/mZpcL.png
04:17:25 <Sgeo> Praying does not work like in NetHack
04:17:47 <Sgeo> You could try killing it with freeze, or checking inventory
04:18:16 <alise> I already tried freezing.
04:18:28 <Sgeo> Did it hurt the kobold at all?
04:18:31 <alise> Sgeo: Quaffing the potion worthwhile?
04:18:33 <alise> Yes, it hurt it a bit.
04:18:43 <Sgeo> Could be a good potion
04:18:58 <Sgeo> COuld be bad. They're rarely fatal though, unless you're in the middle of combat
04:19:06 <Sgeo> Not sure which is the best choice of action
04:19:16 <Sgeo> Please, fix your termsize thing?
04:20:11 <alise> what have I done wrong?
04:20:20 <zzo38> Obviously you have already made a mistake, try again and perhaps be more careful, a bit?
04:20:47 <Sgeo> Um, is it possible that your terminal thing is misreporting as 80x24?
04:20:54 <alise> Sgeo: It IS 80x24.
04:21:09 <Sgeo> Please, get in ##crawl ?
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04:27:08 <Sgeo> I think chocolate. Um, you can see a description
04:27:23 <Sgeo> In inventory, press the leter of the thing you want to see a description of
04:28:09 <pikhq> Fuck it. I am now getting all my news about the US from the BBC.
04:28:36 <pikhq> They have better reporting about what is, to them, *a foreign country* than native news reporting.
04:28:53 <Sgeo> alise, get back to the main screen so eith can see what's going on?
04:28:55 <alise> The BBC is excellent.
04:29:29 <pikhq> Yeah, Al Jazeera is pretty nice.
04:29:45 <pikhq> But of course Americans think it's some niche "TERRORIST" agency.
04:30:17 <alise> pikhq: The BBC has undoubtedly the best-designed news web pages.
04:32:27 <pikhq> I don't think Americans realise that Al Jazeera comes out of Qatar. (one of the least shitty Middle Eastern nations)
04:33:29 <alise> They own Harrods, too.
04:33:38 <alise> (Well, the royal family does.)
04:36:31 <alise> Sgeo: o is so cheating
04:36:35 <alise> "Play the game for me."
04:36:48 <Sgeo> You still need to fight manually
04:36:57 <Sgeo> You still need to mark what places to avoid, sometimes
04:37:25 <Sgeo> The idea is that the game isn't wandering around exploring. It's fighting
04:37:31 <Sgeo> And there are some areas that o doesn't work
04:37:41 <pikhq> How is it that US reporting sucks *so bad*?
04:38:13 <pikhq> Oh, wait. Murdoch. Right.
04:38:14 <alise> pikhq: because your country sucks so bad
04:38:41 <alise> Sgeo: should i always try to go down like nethack?
04:38:51 <Sgeo> alise, once you clear the level, yes
04:38:56 <Sgeo> Try to read scrolls first, I think
04:39:12 <alise> I feel strangely unstable!
04:39:17 <Sgeo> alise, scroll of teleport
04:39:21 <Sgeo> You will teleport in a few turns
04:39:37 <Sgeo> Blink is instant
04:39:44 <alise> I can't eat that, can I?
04:40:02 <Sgeo> What color is the text naming it?
04:40:25 <Sgeo> If it's a corpse, white is ok, yellow is sometimes ok sometimes sickening, and green is poisonous
04:40:34 <Sgeo> You need to (c)hop corpses before you can eat them
04:40:53 <Sgeo> I am now fighting a pile of gold coins
04:41:17 <Sgeo> mimics don't show up as mimics just because you're fighting them
04:41:38 <Sgeo> what's red here?
04:41:42 <Sgeo> I can't see your screen
04:43:00 <Sgeo> Go to your inventory
04:43:06 <Sgeo> What color is the scroll of teleport?
04:43:14 <Sgeo> Erm, to your discoveries, \
04:43:43 <alise> That is not yellow, that is red
04:44:03 <Sgeo> "a chunk of orc flesh"
04:45:46 <Sgeo> I can't see any of it
04:49:03 <Sgeo> God: Trog [*****.]
04:49:21 <alise> Sgeo: do corpses spoil?
04:49:32 <Sgeo> You can't accidentally eat a spoiled corpse though
04:49:37 <Sgeo> It won't let you
04:49:50 <Sgeo> And there are some races that don't care about rotting meat
04:49:56 <Sgeo> And some races that can't eat meat
04:49:58 <alise> scroll of identify!
04:50:06 <Sgeo> And some races that can eat meat when not hungry (like Trolls)
04:50:20 <Sgeo> alise, one of the more common scrolls
04:52:58 <Sgeo> alise, M to memorize new spells
04:53:17 <Sgeo> m to adjust what gets experience points from practicing and what doesn't
04:53:29 <Sgeo> Eat corpses before permafood
04:53:46 <Sgeo> Don't eat kobold corpses (green, poisonous)
04:58:08 <Sgeo> You can't eat flesh unless you're hungry
04:58:20 <Sgeo> That's different for some races though
04:58:23 <Sgeo> Trolls like flesh
05:00:30 <alise> Slain by a worm (7 damage)
05:00:34 <alise> I assumed worms would be harmles.
05:01:07 <Sgeo> Now play a troll berserker
05:01:38 <Sgeo> I raved about how well I was doing, and they said that they're easy early-game, but mid-late game is a different story
05:12:34 <Sgeo> http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Sgeo/morgue-Sgeo-20100829-041037.txt
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08:39:47 <Sgeo> alise: noobrobin is recommended to be Mountain Dwarf Fighter or Mountain Dwarf Berserker
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10:28:58 <Phantom_Hoover> When Hackiki can run "nearly-arbitrary code", what does that actually mean?
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11:24:48 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, a guess about possible restrictions: no arbitrary connections to remote hosts allowed, limited time to run before being killed
11:25:00 <Vorpal> and running inside that chrooty thing that EgoBot uses
11:26:50 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, other pretty obvious limitations would include limited it to instructions allowed in ring 3 (user space on x86 CPUs)
11:29:08 <GreaseMonkey> (i think it's running either in the northbridge or the southbridge or something)
11:29:35 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, no one said -3
11:29:42 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, I said 3
11:30:09 <GreaseMonkey> if you're wondering, -1 is hypervisor and -2 is system management mode
11:33:21 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, people don't seem to refer to them as rings very often
11:33:50 <GreaseMonkey> hmm i wonder if someone could make a copperlist rootkit for the amiga
11:34:40 <Vorpal> so a microcode rootkit?
11:35:11 <GreaseMonkey> the copper only has 3 instructions: MOVE, SKIP, and WAIT
11:35:23 <Phantom_Hoover> "Ring" is a measure of how much you're allowed to screw up, yes?
11:35:26 <GreaseMonkey> (you can jump by doing a MOVE into COPPC1 or COPPC2 or something like that)
11:35:42 <GreaseMonkey> Phantom_Hoover: kinda, it's a privilege level, ring 0 is the "highest"
11:36:03 <olsner> didn't amd64 get rid of the rings and just have kernel and user-mode?
11:36:06 <GreaseMonkey> (actually no i don't think it's COPPC but COPJMP or something)
11:36:15 <Phantom_Hoover> alise and I were discussing an OS in which all code ran in ring 0...
11:36:28 <Vorpal> olsner, amd64 can still run DOS, but yes in 64-bit mode more or less
11:37:00 <olsner> Vorpal: yeah, I meant "... while in long mode" :P
11:37:04 <GreaseMonkey> olsner: i think you might possibly be mistaking that for the limitations wrt mandatory paging & lack of GDT
11:41:24 <olsner> hmm, how can a 32-bit kernel run 64-bit programs?
11:41:51 <GreaseMonkey> olsner: if it has a 64-bit component or something
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12:43:48 <Phantom_Hoover> BeholdMyGlory, I'm beholding it. What's so special about it?
12:53:21 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: you're probably not beholding it right
13:01:25 <fizzie> Beholding is in the eye of the beautifier.
13:13:13 <fizzie> I think we only have uglifiers present.
13:13:41 <fizzie> (Are you planning to go stealing some eyes?)
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16:10:40 <Sgeo> alise, FightClub is awesome
16:11:24 <alise> Either you're referring to a book/film by a strangely CamelCased title, or you're referencing something of which I know not.
16:11:38 <alise> [ehird@dinky ~]$ telnet termcast.org
16:11:39 <alise> bash: telnet: command not found
16:12:07 <alise> My 68k emulation has telnet and I don't. Tee hee.
16:14:22 <Sgeo> http://crawl.develz.org/learndb/index.html#fight
16:15:16 <alise> But then I have to go and be spammy in ##crawl and I bet the regulars don't use it often.
16:15:54 <Sgeo> We were having a party last night
16:16:10 <alise> fight 10 20-headed hydra v 10 giant spore
16:16:29 <Sgeo> Or shall I do it?
16:16:31 <Vorpal> alise, so. any hypothetical activity?
16:16:43 <alise> Vorpal: perhaps when i'm more awake, yes
16:16:55 <alise> Sgeo: "PM varmin your !fight requests to reduce channel spam."
16:17:24 <Vorpal> alise, hm okay, I might be afk/busy quite a bit today, so don't expect fast replies
16:17:27 <alise> i think the hydras are winning here
16:17:42 <Sgeo> Except I don't see this fight moving anytime soon
16:17:52 <fizzie> Vorpal: Hypothetically, running "file" on the hypothetical .dmg version would print "VAX COFF executable", which I find... hypothetically unlikely.
16:18:09 <alise> <alise> !fight 10 the royal jelly v 100 giant spore
16:18:14 <alise> Sgeo: I don't even know the monsters
16:18:22 <alise> I'm just modifying stuff from the bot entry
16:18:50 <alise> Sgeo: can you cancel a fight?
16:19:00 <Sgeo> Repeat the request with cancel after it
16:19:16 <Sgeo> Or just !fight cancel, but I think that clears the queue
16:19:44 <alise> well that was easy
16:21:52 <Sgeo> ALways put the test spawner after the v
16:21:59 <Sgeo> So that it can end
16:22:18 <alise> Sgeo: Sigmund, eh?
16:22:52 <Sgeo> Test spawners are (near) unkillable, and just spawn monsters
16:22:52 <alise> <alise> !fight 100 20-headed hydra vs 100 Sigmund
16:22:56 <alise> I LEARNED A NEW THING TODAY
16:23:05 <Sgeo> Sigmund's not the best
16:23:13 <Sgeo> There's one starting with A that is incredible
16:23:47 <Sgeo> !fight 1 0-headed hydra v 100 Sigmund
16:24:04 <Sgeo> 0-headed turns into 250-headed for some reason
16:24:25 <alise> Sgeo: does it have equivalents of Rodney, and the horsemen?
16:24:35 <Sgeo> I guess Orb Guardian's kind of close
16:24:39 <alise> so this will be amusing
16:25:19 <alise> Sgeo: vs 10 test spawner
16:25:23 <alise> i double dog dare you :|
16:25:38 <alise> i think these guys totally have a chance
16:25:45 <alise> they're closing in
16:25:51 <Sgeo> alise, they can only stop the test spawner spawning
16:25:55 <Sgeo> They can't kill it
16:26:02 <alise> how can you kill it?
16:26:08 <Sgeo> Although someone once killed test spawner with 99 Daevas
16:26:14 <fizzie> Vorpal: More hypothetically, running it through dmg2img gives a file 548864000 bytes, but it's designed for florbing hfs+ filesystem images, I'm not completely certain it groks CDs. (The OS X hypothetically opens the hypothetical .dmg just fine, and shows contents too.)
16:26:36 <alise> Sgeo: wow, an orb guardian died
16:26:39 <alise> how? if it's so powerful
16:27:06 <Sgeo> Ok, time to cancel fight, call it for orb guardians
16:27:06 <alise> let's see if they can kill it
16:27:14 <alise> but they're hurting it!
16:27:20 <alise> won't that mean it'll die eventually?
16:27:25 <Sgeo> They're not hurting it
16:27:32 <Sgeo> Read the messages, and see the green by the name
16:29:00 <alise> Sgeo: test spawner vs test spawner
16:29:09 <Sgeo> That won't ever end
16:29:16 <Sgeo> Until you cancel
16:29:23 <alise> but it will be hilarious
16:29:31 <Sgeo> add random_uniques
16:29:35 <Sgeo> So they'll be uniques
16:29:55 <alise> sgqExamples: "!fight 20-headed hydra v 10 kobold ; scimitar ego:flaming"
16:30:00 <alise> i don't get that bit after the ;
16:30:02 <alise> is it to add items?
16:30:11 <Sgeo> Um... not really sure
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16:30:25 <Sgeo> There's a spells: thingy
16:30:36 <Sgeo> Which isn't documented, apparently
16:30:42 <alise> i added the orb of zot
16:31:00 <Sgeo> Add a wand of draining
16:31:22 <alise> ; wand of draining?
16:32:09 <alise> <alise> !fight 30 Sigmund ; wand of draining vs 30 test spawner random_uniques
16:32:51 <Sgeo> Sigmund likes dying
16:33:05 <Sgeo> That's the strong unique
16:34:39 <alise> Sgeo: These turns go slowly.
16:35:04 <Sgeo> You can speed them up. Please don't.
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16:35:22 <alise> Hey you can do this locally sweet
16:35:24 <Sgeo> It's mean on the server
16:35:25 <fizzie> Vorpal: Hey, that's nice. The hypothetical Myst sort of works in OS X's Classic emulation. It even managed to set a 256-color display mode.
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16:35:27 <alise> crawl -arena "..."
16:35:34 <alise> To make them fight for three rounds you can do:
16:35:34 <alise> crawl -arena "t:3 kobold v goblin"
16:35:37 <alise> http://crawl-ref.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/crawl-ref/trunk/crawl-ref/docs/arena.txt
16:35:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Why do logicians insist upon using the subset symbol for implication?
16:35:42 <alise> You can also give each side more than one monster. For example:
16:35:48 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: usually they don't
16:36:02 <alise> does Antaeus have a band, Sgeo?
16:36:09 <Sgeo> I have no idea
16:36:13 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: hysterical raisins
16:37:03 <alise> Sgeo: Will this fight ever end?
16:37:04 <Sgeo> Roxanne is a spellcasting statue
16:37:08 <Sgeo> alise, looks like it
16:37:14 <alise> Antaeus is winning, but still.
16:37:30 <fizzie> Vorpal: The dock on the right hand side is not exactly pretty, though: http://zem.fi/~fis/myst-start.png
16:37:34 <alise> <alise> !fight Margery band, Saint Roka band vs 5 Antaeus
16:37:42 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: telnet termcast.org, fight club
16:37:50 <alise> /msg varmin !fight foo vs bar to queue one up
16:37:58 <alise> along with the more powerful options explained in http://crawl-ref.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/crawl-ref/trunk/crawl-ref/docs/arena.txt
16:38:07 <Sgeo> spell: isn't explained there
16:38:16 <Sgeo> One common thing seems to be to give statues spells
16:38:22 <alise> Sgeo: There's multiples arenas!!
16:38:25 <alise> http://crawl-ref.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/crawl-ref/trunk/crawl-ref/source/dat/arena.des
16:38:31 <Sgeo> alise, yeah, mostly useless
16:38:42 <alise> arena_corridor looks fun
16:38:48 <alise> Uh, Antaeus won that one, right?
16:39:44 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, there were several Antaeus's
16:40:05 <alise> i gave the other guys a test spawner
16:40:08 <alise> since they're at such a disadvantage
16:40:44 <alise> Sgeo: Why are so many of them green-backgrounded?
16:41:00 <Sgeo> alise, because I think in terms of the code, they're allies (roughly similar to NetHack pets)
16:41:13 <Sgeo> You see how it says Your?
16:42:04 <alise> Sgeo: I read that as "I think in terms of the code; because of this, ..."
16:42:37 <alise> antaeus are fucked
16:43:08 <Sgeo> "Don't you feel lonely without a god?"
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16:43:46 <Sgeo> Orb Guardians don't have a chance
16:43:57 <alise> Why do they guard the Orb, then?
16:44:12 <Sgeo> According to LearnDB, they're relatively harmless
16:44:19 <Sgeo> I think because you try to avoid fighting them
16:44:49 <alise> what's the most powerful fighting item?
16:44:59 <Sgeo> I have no idea
16:45:07 <Sgeo> You think I'm a Crawl expert? :D
16:46:29 <alise> Lesson learned: to fight Antaeus, tame a load of 0-headed hydrae.
16:47:17 <alise> <Antaeus> wtf man.
16:47:47 <alise> well that was easy
16:47:56 <alise> this may take a while
16:49:27 <alise> <Antaeus> What do you expect me to do here?
16:49:55 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Vorpal: The dock on the right hand side is not exactly pretty, though: http://zem.fi/~fis/myst-start.png <-- heh
16:50:13 <Vorpal> fizzie, iirc myst *will* run under more than 256 colours
16:51:13 <fizzie> Yes, there's a "Continue" button in the box where it asks whether you want to set it to 256 colours.
16:51:15 <alise> Sgeo: IT'S THE FINAL COUNTDOOWN
16:51:22 <fizzie> It seems to work better in BasiliskII, though.
16:51:44 <alise> Sgeo: <alise> !fight 40 random vs 40 random random_uniques cycle_random miscasts
16:51:57 <alise> These guys are miscasting every fuckin' turn.
16:52:52 <alise> the royal jelly (rotting)
16:53:26 <alise> Sgeo: What's the weakest monster in the game, do you know?
16:54:46 <alise> Sgeo: I can't tell who's winning here.
17:00:07 <alise> <Antaeus> MMF--MFFFF!!!
17:01:12 <Sgeo> alise, sorry, was AFK
17:01:22 <alise> Sgeo: I did !fight 40 random vs 40 random random_uniques cycle_random miscasts
17:01:26 <alise> I have no idea who won.
17:01:36 <alise> Yeah, cacodemon. I saw it in the previous fight.
17:01:42 <alise> So I decided, why not pit Antaeus against 99 of them.
17:01:42 -!- tombom_ has joined.
17:01:59 <Sgeo> I'm gonna brush my teeth quickly
17:02:14 <Sgeo> Spriggans ought to be weak
17:02:21 <Sgeo> Some of the player races
17:03:04 <Sgeo> (spriggan is a player race)
17:03:39 <Sgeo> Antaeus is losing
17:03:50 <alise> But he has kiled an awful lot of them.
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17:04:06 <alise> Gah, doesn't he have a way to resore his health?
17:04:27 <alise> Also, when the fuck do you fight Antaeus in the game? He's nearly invincible!
17:04:33 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
17:04:59 <Sgeo> http://crawl.develz.org/learndb/index.html#antaeus
17:05:02 <alise> He killed 30. RIP Antaeus.
17:05:12 <Sgeo> http://crawl.develz.org/learndb/index.html#cocytus
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17:06:01 <alise> Sgeo: what's the wand antaeus is using to shoot all-powerful flames of icy death?
17:06:04 -!- EgoBot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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17:06:06 -!- HackEgo has joined.
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17:06:11 <Sgeo> alise, I have no idea
17:06:25 <Gregor> Looka the fancy new hosts for HackEgo and EgoBot! :)
17:07:05 <alise> Sgeo: Spriggan seems tough enough to me.
17:07:18 <Sgeo> hmm, I may be mistaken
17:07:37 <Sgeo> "Spriggans move two thirds faster than most and have seven magic resistance per level (not three), but can't wear most armour and have the lowest natural HP of any race. "
17:07:48 <alise> It's written in C++? Ew.
17:07:51 <Sgeo> (note: It probably means player races)
17:08:07 <alise> The weakest monster in the game. If you're sufficiently challenged by its presence to consult the bot, you're doing it wrong.
17:09:09 <alise> om nom nom nom nom
17:09:18 <alise> giant newts engulf saint roka nom nom
17:09:30 <alise> we cannot lose om nom nom nom
17:10:12 <Sgeo> Obviously, I'm faking all the FightClub stuff just to get alise into Crawl
17:10:32 <Sgeo> Set up termcast, manual drawing... thing
17:10:38 <Sgeo> Added fake learndb entries
17:10:40 <alise> crawl's keep-at-center movement still gives me headaches, sorry
17:12:12 <Sgeo> alise, according to ##crawl, that can be changed
17:12:17 <Sgeo> Although it's more annoying
17:12:22 <Sgeo> http://crawl.akrasiac.org/docs/options_guide.txt
17:12:55 <Sgeo> view_lock stuff apparently
17:13:10 <Sgeo> view_lock=false
17:13:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Does it allow you to have maps larger than the terminal size?
17:13:21 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: all of them are
17:13:37 <alise> GIANT SPIKED CLUB FUCK YEAH
17:13:59 <alise> FUCK YEAH GIANT SPIKED CLUBS
17:14:14 <alise> giant spiked demon blade
17:14:14 <alise> 57 base damage, 21 delay
17:14:17 <alise> totally is a real item
17:14:17 <Sgeo> They're saying it's fairly nice with a huge terminal
17:15:57 <Sgeo> !fight 99 Daeva v test spawner
17:16:30 <alise> is daeva really powerful or sth
17:16:48 <Sgeo> Supposedly, 99 Daeva killed test spawner
17:17:25 <alise> !fight 99 Daeva, 40 Antaeus v test spawner
17:17:33 <alise> will they all fit?
17:18:36 <Sgeo> Hey, a Daeva died
17:19:58 <alise> This could take a while.
17:19:59 <Sgeo> <eith> it will take *ages*
17:20:55 <Sgeo> Do you want to wait, or cancel this fight?
17:21:20 <alise> Cancel, methinks. Unless it goes purple soon.
17:21:46 <alise> Why is some of the floor yellow?
17:21:53 <Sgeo> Might be a halo thing
17:22:22 <alise> Now for the ultimate showdown.
17:22:25 <alise> Okay, wow, Antaeus wins.
17:22:38 <alise> Wouldn't 99 Antaeus v test spawner have a better chance?
17:23:19 <Sgeo> I _think_ that Daeva has an attack that actually scratches test spawner, and ANtaeus doesn't
17:23:27 <Sgeo> test spawner has all resistences
17:25:29 <alise> Antaeus is wandering XD
17:25:51 <Sgeo> Maybe Antaus v something that resists cold
17:26:05 -!- chickenzilla has left (?).
17:26:06 <Sgeo> Hey, ANtaeus was scratched
17:26:09 <alise> <Antaeus> See ya guys.
17:26:26 <Sgeo> Weapons, I think
17:26:54 <alise> Dear god. I have created a monster.
17:27:21 <alise> It's going to keep going until the monsters summoned damage a test spawner enough to destroy it, and so on.
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17:27:37 <alise> Did a test spawner just get destroyed? Wow.
17:28:25 <Sgeo> You can't fire me, I quit!
17:28:37 <Sgeo> One of the messages
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17:28:49 <alise> I think the monsters are disappearing due to lack of space.
17:28:52 <alise> And that's a message for it.
17:29:58 <Sgeo> !fight Roxanne v Roxanne arena:small
17:30:31 <Sgeo> Should I rerequest?
17:31:02 <alise> this will never do a thing XDD
17:31:26 <alise> Sgeo: This is, uh...
17:31:50 <Sgeo> Well, the speech is entertaining
17:32:49 <alise> Sgeo: delay:0 is sweet
17:33:00 <Sgeo> It's mean to the server
17:33:09 <alise> Doesn't matter for short matches.
17:35:01 <alise> Sgeo: delay:0 becomes delay:15, it seems
17:36:32 <fizzie> In other emulationary news, (for no particular reason) tried OpenBSD 4.7 on "qemu-system-sparc -M SS5", and it... didn't quite work: http://zem.fi/~fis/sparc-1.png → http://zem.fi/~fis/sparc-2.png → http://zem.fi/~fis/sparc-3.png; however. the OpenBSD 3.5 that I think is in the real SS5 in the basement did a lot better: http://zem.fi/~fis/sparc-4.png
17:37:36 <Sgeo> I can't really watch the fights when they're this fast
17:37:56 <alise> It's funny, though.
17:38:16 <Sgeo> How about multi-rounding a more even thing?
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17:38:52 <alise> fizzie: how come -1 gets more blurry as you go rightewards?
17:39:25 <alise> Sgeo: NOW the server hates me.
17:39:49 <alise> It's like the end of Wargames.
17:40:53 <fizzie> alise: They're taken from different runs. For some reason qemu doesn't open the window exactly at 1024x768, but instead a bit less than, and my manual resizes weren't very accurate. (It scales the 1024x768 framebuffer to the window size.)
17:41:09 <alise> fizzie: No, I mean, in just -1
17:41:18 <fizzie> Oh, I think the scaling is a bit messy.
17:41:26 <Sgeo> How about slow-mo?
17:41:52 <Sgeo> !fight Antaeus v giant newt delay:1000
17:45:34 <Sgeo> Hey, sigmund managed to kill a newt!
18:00:20 <Sgeo> alise, wanna watch my ghost kill someone?
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18:04:45 <Sgeo> alise, or watch someone deliberately destroy the Orb of Zot?
18:07:53 <Sgeo> Bleh, just watched one
18:08:03 <Sgeo> If you want, PM Sequell with !lm * type=orb.destroy 1 -tv
18:08:05 <Sgeo> And watch FooTV
18:13:34 <Sgeo> destroyed the Orb of (r:Phantom_Hoover)
18:13:37 <fizzie> "destroyed the Orb of (r:Phantom_Hoover)" -- what's the Orb of Phantom_Hoover do?
18:14:32 <Sgeo> There are 6 orb destructions that Sequell knows about
18:14:50 <Sgeo> list them with s=name instead of 1, and play a different one by replacing the number
18:15:00 <Sgeo> (oh, and no -tv with the listing)
18:15:54 <Sgeo> Who requested that?
18:17:13 <Sgeo> To list types of milestones
18:17:19 <Sgeo> At least, those that have been achieved
18:20:36 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
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18:25:09 -!- Flonk_ has changed nick to Flonk.
18:26:14 * Sgeo has to go soon
18:35:00 <Sgeo> 3 rounds, 10 orc v troll, troll wins
18:35:09 <Sgeo> Give the orcs an orc priest, and orcs win
18:35:31 <Sgeo> Even if the priest is killed fairly quickly
18:36:55 <Sgeo> hmm, Ice Fiend
18:40:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Did you repeat the experiments a good number of times?
18:46:48 <Sgeo> 6 - 4 t:10 10 orc v troll delay:15 {Sgeo}
18:47:16 <Sgeo> 10 - 0 t:10 10 orc, orc priest v troll delay:15 {Sgeo}
18:48:14 <Sgeo> 6 - 4 t:10 9 orc, orc priest v troll delay:15 {Sgeo}
18:57:55 <coppro> new idea for NetHack hallucinatory monster: patent troll
19:00:27 <Sgeo> Antaeus was injured!
19:00:28 <alise> <Sgeo> Give the orcs an orc priest, and orcs win
19:00:28 <alise> <Sgeo> Even if the priest is killed fairly quickly
19:00:32 <alise> takes the damage for them
19:01:02 <Sgeo> Actually, my experiments, such as they are, seem to show that it's number of orcs
19:01:19 <Sgeo> 11 orcs total do far better than 10 orcs total
19:01:24 <Sgeo> Wow, orc priests own Antaeus
19:01:27 <alise> <Sgeo> If you want, PM Sequell with !lm * type=orb.destroy 1 -tv ;; what else can you do with this
19:02:27 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
19:02:41 <Sgeo> Sorry, comp acting up
19:02:57 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Client Quit).
19:03:26 <Sgeo> http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/bots lastgame and lastgame examples
19:03:34 <Sgeo> Or http://crawl.develz.org/learndb/index.html#lastgame
19:04:09 <alise> <Sequell> 1. qwqw, XL17 SpEn, T:20797 (milestone) requested for FooTV.
19:04:15 <alise> how long do i have to wait for him to destroy it? :P
19:04:19 <Sgeo> alise, you missed it
19:04:27 <alise> was it at the start or something
19:04:41 <alise> i ran your !lm command
19:04:45 <alise> what is the yellow #?
19:04:47 <alise> in fightclub right now
19:04:56 <alise> also, antaeus is holding up damn well here :P
19:04:56 <Sgeo> I have no idea
19:05:05 <Sgeo> alise, run it again, watch FooTV
19:05:07 <alise> isn't that red #? i'd guess
19:05:13 <alise> i saw no orb being destroyed
19:05:47 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
19:06:07 <alise> That was ... boring.
19:07:39 <alise> how does one start crawl-tiles in a window?
19:07:42 <alise> I want HI-RES arena
19:08:41 <Sgeo> I don't know, I've only ever played Crawl online
19:09:09 <alise> Sgeo: 99 Daevas v test spawner delay:0 running locally
19:09:12 <Sgeo> alise, oh, Ice Fiends do well against Antaeus
19:09:14 <alise> not ... not much is happening
19:09:35 <alise> Yay, it lost some health.
19:09:35 <Sgeo> Around 10 will sometimes kill em
19:09:54 <alise> Sgeo: it's much more fun locally, since delay:0 is actually 0
19:10:22 <alise> This thing is fucking resilient! Wow!
19:10:29 <Sgeo> The test spawner?
19:10:55 <alise> It'll die in the next twenty minutes!
19:11:20 <alise> Woo, it died and I didn't even see it.
19:11:23 <alise> How much HP does it have, exactly?
19:11:47 <alise> 96 Antaeus v 99 test spawners...
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19:14:49 -!- augur has joined.
19:16:37 <alise> 1 - 0 99 the Lernaean hydra miscasts delay:15 v 99 Antaeus {alise}
19:16:37 <alise> 1 - 0 40 Antaeus v 99 the Lernaean hydra miscasts delay:15 {alise}
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19:24:06 <Sgeo> alise, there's probably a way to watch people killing Antaeus?
19:24:58 <Sgeo> !lm * uniq=Antaeus
19:25:15 <Sgeo> Put a -tv after that and you're watching the last person to kill ANtaeus
19:25:20 <alise> Sgeo: Now I'm pitting 99 Antaeuses against a test spawner; de;ay:0.
19:25:24 <Sgeo> Either that, or the last of Antaeus's victims, not sure
19:25:44 <alise> Uh, actually, I think they're doing no damage at all.
19:25:59 <Sgeo> No, last person to kill Antaeus
19:27:36 -!- yorick has joined.
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19:27:56 -!- yorick has joined.
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19:32:01 <alise> Sgeo: you can have more than 99 of an enemy
19:32:06 <alise> 99 test spawners, 99 test spawners works
19:32:27 <SgeoN2> What happens if you put 100.?
19:33:16 * SgeoN2 wonders how Sigmund fares against orcs
19:33:42 <SgeoN2> For how weak Sigmund seems in the arena, he's a common player killed
19:33:57 <alise> SgeoN2: You see a puff of smoke. x19963
19:34:00 <alise> gets >30000 sometimes
19:34:04 <alise> crawl -arena 'Daeva v 99 test spawner, 99 test spawner, 26 test spawner delay:0'
19:35:42 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
19:35:47 <alise> The Daeva is, uh, sitting around hitting things wildly.
19:35:50 <alise> I haven't the patience.
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19:37:31 <Phantom_Hoover> My god, Andrew Schlafly doesn't believe in complex numbers.
19:38:02 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: XD
19:38:06 <alise> SgeoN2: crawl -arena '99 giant newt, 99 giant newt, 26 giant newt v test spawner delay:0'
19:38:28 <alise> They're sure hissing menacingly a lot.
19:38:32 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, it gets better. He's a former electrical engineer.
19:38:45 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: So how did he...
19:40:09 <alise> SgeoN2: The giant newts are really determined.
19:40:14 <alise> Does hissing menacingly actually do any damage?
19:40:34 <SgeoN2> Ill be able to talk soon
19:41:17 <madbrain2> hmmm, I need to design a nice and simple instruction set
19:41:51 <alise> madbrain2: forth :P
19:42:30 <alise> no seriously forth cpus are sweet
19:43:46 <madbrain2> but are they efficient for irl implementations? :D
19:44:02 <madbrain2> especially on systems without cache?
19:44:05 <alise> forth cpus are commercial products
19:44:10 <SgeoN2> Ok, I can participate in stuff now
19:44:12 <alise> from various companies
19:44:16 <alise> hobbyists have made a few
19:44:20 <alise> and of course chuck moore can't stop making them
19:44:31 <alise> madbrain2: i don't think you'd need cache
19:45:06 <alise> ha, from chuck moore's latest blog post:
19:45:10 <alise> "Also, I've become a teetotaler. After 40 years of favoring bourbon, I've concluded the upside doesn't compensate the downside. Among many considerations: life is simpler; I'll save money; social occassions are more difficult. So now it's ginger ale of an evening."
19:45:21 <alise> but how will we get blog posts that seem almost slurred???
19:46:19 <alise> SgeoN2: crawl -arena '99 giant newt, 99 giant newt, 25 giant newt, Daeva v test spawner delay:0'
19:46:24 <alise> run until daeva is next to test spawner
19:46:28 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
19:46:30 <alise> (may take many tries)
19:46:43 <SgeoN2> Alise, ping me whenbyou request fightclub fights
19:47:05 <alise> i'm doing it locally now, delay:0 is sweet
19:47:25 <SgeoN2> Autocorrent isn't.good at detecting whenbi type something other than space
19:47:52 <alise> "The GA4 is the smallest chip we have created: A chip with Four F18B computers in an 8-pin package (2x2mm) or 12 pins (3x3mm). The chip measures <1 sq mm in a 180 nm process." --Green Arrays
19:47:55 <alise> http://greenarraychips.com/home/images/ga4.jpg
19:47:56 <SgeoN2> You could termcast it...
19:48:03 <alise> that little thing in the top-right is a chip
19:48:11 <alise> SgeoN2: just run it locally yourself :P
19:48:33 <SgeoN2> Not willing to download Crawl
19:48:33 <alise> uh, Daeva /can/ do the smiting stuff diagonally, right?
19:48:37 <alise> SgeoN2: o_O why not?
19:48:42 <alise> you play the damn thing
19:48:56 <SgeoN2> Laziness, ease of just playing online most of the time
19:50:29 <alise> Roguelikes: Because suicide is too easy.
19:50:30 <SgeoN2> Also, I'm on a phone right now. Far easier to watch on termcast than attempting to get Crawl working on here
19:52:57 <alise> SgeoN2: I think I'm going to write a Roguelike.
19:53:19 <madbrain2> stack based cpu designs seem like they use lots of instructions to do stuff no&
19:53:30 <SgeoN2> I may have added too much soap
19:53:31 <alise> madbrain2: eh; Forth has no real "instructions"
19:53:45 <alise> madbrain2: it won't be slow though
19:53:53 <alise> madbrain2: since while it may call a few words it's very very close to the metal
19:54:06 <alise> like, a while loop in forth executes 10x simpler than a while loop in a regular language of the same expressiveness
19:54:58 <SgeoN2> I'm at the Laundromat, the washer at my house is broken
19:55:48 <alise> http://googleads.g.doubleclick.net/pagead/imgad?id=CKqn0JrmocOuKRDYBRhPMgijsGgA5g0TgA
19:56:53 <SgeoN2> Do they provide services for characters in roguelikes?
19:57:52 <coppro> hey, that's a nice-looking ! you got there
19:58:36 <alise> "You don't hit the bat"
19:58:41 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
19:59:37 <madbrain2> well, what I mean is, take something like a texture mapping algo
19:59:47 -!- nooga has joined.
20:00:09 <madbrain2> you have to store multiple counter values into registers, increment them each step, etc
20:00:27 <madbrain2> plus do bit manipualtion for texture coords
20:00:44 <alise> I am now battling an emu.
20:00:47 <alise> madbrain2: registers?
20:00:50 <alise> there are no registers in a stack machine
20:01:18 <madbrain2> where do they store loop counters then:D
20:01:28 <alise> do you know Forth?
20:01:40 <alise> it's kind of hard to imagine how a forth machine works without knowing forth
20:02:06 <madbrain2> well, it reads variables to and from the stack no?
20:02:14 <alise> madbrain2: well uh
20:02:14 <coppro> this is why India will overtake North American & Europe: http://ask.slashdot.org/story/10/08/29/1710203/What-IT-Stuff-Should-We-Teach-Ninth-Graders
20:02:21 <alise> that's if you're programming with a variable-based paradigm
20:02:25 <alise> which would be retarded on a stack machine
20:02:29 <alise> madbrain2: i suggest you learn forth, the language
20:02:34 <madbrain2> like, how would you translate n += dn;
20:02:36 <alise> only then you can you understand how a stack machine can be efficient
20:02:39 <alise> because you don't do that
20:02:42 <alise> i mean you can theoretically
20:02:44 <alise> but it'd be stupid
20:02:51 <alise> (and you'd probably just use a memory location for that case)
20:03:13 <madbrain2> ok how do you handle a loop with counters being incremented on each step?
20:03:36 <alise> it's an almost impossible question to answer without you having any knowledge of this stuff since forth is such a different mindset
20:03:41 <alise> seriously, just learn forth :P
20:04:56 <alise> ________)/\\_//(\/(/\)/\//\/|_)_______
20:06:14 <alise> why, you die a lot?
20:06:39 <alise> well mario is also a lot easier and more braindead to play than roguelikes :)
20:06:44 <alise> rogue itself is pretty boring though gotta admit
20:07:22 <SgeoN2> Alise, set some viewport options and play Crawl?
20:07:33 <alise> SgeoN2: but rogue is historical!
20:07:49 <cheater00> alise, this poem is from me to you: http://hackedirl.com/2010/08/16/culture-jamming-win-nerd-love/
20:07:55 <alise> ATTACK OF THE KILLER EMUS
20:08:16 <alise> cheater00: oh come on
20:08:23 <alise> as soon as all your base came out
20:08:32 <SgeoN2> Gryph was kidnapped by an emu
20:08:39 <cheater00> i thought you would appreciate the romanticism
20:09:01 <alise> apparently, as n decreases, insanity of cheatern increases
20:09:09 <cheater00> i just thought, you know, this image perfectly described my feeling towards u
20:09:23 <alise> i think cheater00 is either drunk or ... drunk
20:09:48 <SgeoN2> http://creatures.wikia.com/wiki/Emu
20:10:09 <cheater00> i was at a birthday last friday and i bought the people a litre of vodka at the bar
20:10:30 <alise> You don't hit the ice monster (or something)
20:10:47 <alise> ________)/\\_//(\/(/\)/\//\/|_)_______
20:10:51 <alise> ONE HIT and I died
20:10:53 <alise> NOTE TO SELF: When playing Rogue, NEVER attack I.
20:10:55 <SgeoN2> Are there any Rogue servers?
20:11:18 <cheater00> actually nethack is the 'server' one innit
20:11:24 <cheater00> rogue doesn't have any networkability
20:11:31 <alise> cheater00: nor does nethack
20:11:34 <alise> madbrain2: not really, just newbie-asshole games
20:11:42 <alise> they're very rewarding if you can get past the first few levels
20:11:53 <cheater00> you can connect to the server and leave your bones behind
20:11:59 <cheater00> HENCE interacting with other players
20:12:01 <alise> cheater00: that's because it's a version of Hack maintained by people over the internet
20:12:05 <alise> also, leaving bones is a machine-local thing
20:12:13 <SgeoN2> The Net refers to the deb's working together on the Internet, I think
20:12:19 <cheater00> stfu, girls know nothing about computer games
20:12:21 <alise> nethack servers are basically termcasts with keyboard input
20:12:39 <SgeoN2> No, not debian packages
20:13:04 <alise> SgeoN2: you know what? i'm gonna make a rogue server
20:13:05 <alise> AND NOBODY CAN STOP ME
20:13:17 <alise> i wanna see if i can get the dos version's graphics though
20:13:24 <madbrain2> all of which are going to kill you at random
20:13:29 <alise> madbrain2: which you don't quaff unless either desperate or identified
20:13:35 <alise> that's called caution
20:13:44 <alise> cheater00: there's a program to download bones without using a server
20:13:55 * SgeoN2 hits madbrain2 with a large trout
20:14:07 <alise> "To get started you really only need to know two commands. The command
20:14:08 <alise> ? will give you a list of the available commands and the command /
20:14:08 <alise> will identify the things you see on the screen."
20:14:18 <madbrain2> plus they have crazy identification techniques involving stacking
20:14:26 <alise> Probably infinite (although countably infinite). However, that Ice
20:14:26 <alise> Monsters sometimes transfix you permanently is not a bug. It's a fea-
20:14:40 <alise> okay, crazy plan: rogue | sed for ibm graphics
20:14:52 <alise> no colour though, i'm not that crazy
20:15:38 <cheater00> alise: um, rogue doesn't have bones levels
20:15:52 <alise> cheater00: of course not
20:16:14 <alise> cheater00: not really
20:16:17 <alise> you can have online servers without bones
20:16:57 <madbrain2> well, a game that you need a walkthrough to even just play...
20:17:00 <cheater00> <cheater00> you want a nethack server
20:17:09 <cheater00> "you want a nethack server, for bones"
20:17:13 <alise> madbrain2: you don't with crawl et al
20:17:18 <alise> madbrain2: only nethack is that perverse
20:17:21 <alise> even then you don't need a walkthrough
20:17:24 <SgeoN2> You don't need a walkthrough to play Crawl
20:17:25 <alise> just lots of spoilers
20:20:46 <SgeoN2> Supposedly, an unspoiled person won NetHacl recently
20:23:04 <alise> SgeoN2: Fun idea: The smiley face character turns sad if you're low on HP.
20:25:35 <alise> SgeoN2: Well, I have a smiley face.
20:26:52 <cheater00> alise: what sort of music do u listen 2
20:27:13 <alise> i refuse to talk to anyone who says "u" or "2"
20:27:44 <cheater00> you're just using this as an excuse, though
20:30:30 <alise> To win the game (as opposed to merely playing to beat other people's
20:30:30 <alise> high scores) you must locate the Amulet of Yendor which is somewhere
20:30:30 <alise> below the 20th level of the dungeon and get it out. Nobody has
20:30:30 <alise> achieved this yet and if somebody does, they will probably go down in
20:30:30 <alise> history as a hero among heroes.
20:35:08 <olsner> alise: is this nethack?
20:35:24 <alise> or at least the presumably-old manpage for Rogue
20:35:44 <alise> so the original manpage it seems
20:35:53 <olsner> oh, ok... maybe someone's solved it in the decades after that then
20:36:17 <alise> even programs have solved it
20:36:26 <alise> it's easier than nethack
20:36:36 <alise> (although still difficult)
20:36:46 <alise> olsner: i don't suppose you know how to disable line spacing on a terminal?
20:36:49 <alise> it's fucking up my box drawing :D
20:37:23 <SgeoN2> Programs have solves roguelikes? O.o
20:37:36 <alise> SgeoN2: you do realise TAEB is a pretty good player?
20:37:44 <olsner> alise: I think the spacing is included in the fonts (at least in traditional ones), and that there are special characters for doing line drawing that use the full width/height
20:37:45 <alise> and that nethack is probably the hardest roguelike?
20:37:49 <alise> olsner: not traditional
20:37:52 <alise> modern terminal, modern font etc.
20:38:22 <SgeoN2> Supposedly, crawl is harder than spoiled NetHack
20:38:28 <SgeoN2> But maybe not for Bots I guess
20:39:31 * SgeoN2 was expecting to use ConnectBot ...
20:40:15 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/17/Rogue_Screen_Shot_CAR.PNG i want my rogue server to look like this dammit
20:40:15 <Vorpal> alise, well... nothing hypothetical will happen today... Night
20:40:21 <SgeoN2> Telnet and SSH client for Android
20:40:24 <alise> Vorpal: night? at this time?
20:40:25 <olsner> normal fonts are subtler of course, but hmm, I think the same applies there really... the relationship between character grid size and character size is way more complicated, but I'm pretty sure the font could have the same kind of line drawing characters that fill up the space
20:40:33 <alise> olsner: no, i tried those
20:40:36 <alise> i believe the terminal is linespacing
20:40:39 <Vorpal> alise, I have to wake up at 06:00... so yes
20:41:07 <alise> SgeoN2: no, that's your @
20:42:18 <alise> SgeoN2: ideas for my roguelike are buzzing around annoyingly since they'll be hard to implement >_>
20:44:54 <SgeoN2> The Sgeo Memorial Resignation proposal
20:45:32 <SgeoN2> Possible name for a proposal to fix something that almost kept me trapped as Chroniclor
20:51:43 <madbrain2> the 8x14, 8x16, 9x14 or 9x16 version? :D
20:52:00 <coppro> SgeoN2: you should read the rules before you complain that they're broken
20:59:00 <alise> SgeoN2: I'm actually creating a Rogue server...
20:59:17 <alise> madbrain2: I like the old DOS font for box drawing etc.
20:59:23 <alise> The text is a bit crappy.
20:59:32 <SgeoN2> Maybe it's a roguelike I could actually win
20:59:36 <alise> SgeoN2: Check out my TOTALLY SLEEK MANDATORY FIGLET INTRODUCTION TEXT:
20:59:40 <alise> __________/ __ \____ ____ ___ _____ __________
20:59:40 <alise> /____/____/ /_/ / __ \/ __ `/ / / / _ \/____/____/
20:59:40 <alise> /_/ |_|\____/\__, /\__,_/\___/
20:59:51 <alise> And I dunno about that, Angband is generally considered easier, and I don't think Angband is considered easy.
21:01:19 * SgeoN2 ponders watching alises death on FooTV
21:01:54 <SgeoN2> Typing it out is going to be annoying
21:02:31 <SgeoN2> Slain by a worm, right?
21:02:38 <SgeoN2> About to send the command
21:04:25 <SgeoN2> Alise, you screwed up FooTV
21:05:31 <SgeoN2> Your weird terminal size issues
21:05:56 <SgeoN2> Should I put it on again so you can see for yourself?
21:06:18 <alise> although i did check in the actual game
21:07:58 -!- zzo38 has joined.
21:08:07 <zzo38> Try two simple roguelike games I have created
21:08:59 <zzo38> I have other ideas for roguelike games too, which I have not implemented.
21:09:39 <zzo38> The games I created are: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/GAMES/100level.zip http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/GAMES/RL/KING.ZIP
21:09:57 -!- Killerkid has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
21:10:03 <SgeoN2> Zzo, I'm planning on learning, or at least reading about, Forth
21:10:11 <alise> SgeoN2: so wikia won wrt the skin huh
21:10:38 <alise> SgeoN2: btw, the best way to learn forth is to read jonesforth. you don't need to understand assembly, just read all the (huge huge comments)
21:10:40 <zzo38> SgeoN2: Yes, it is a good thing to learn, afterward you might like or not like some things about it, you don't ever have to use it if you don't want to.
21:10:42 <alise> very very educational
21:10:52 <alise> http://www.annexia.org/_file/jonesforth.s.txt
21:11:01 <alise> explains everything in depth with nice diagrams
21:11:28 -!- ais523 has joined.
21:11:45 <SgeoN2> People regard strange languages as something that should go away?
21:12:01 <SgeoN2> I, and presumably everyone in the channel, regard them as fun!
21:12:56 <alise> SgeoN2: you don't need to read his links about learning forth the language, btw
21:13:04 <olsner> heh, it's not every day that an assembly program is the recommended reference :P
21:13:08 <alise> learning forth the language should come after learning how forth works; the latter is a prerequisite to understanding its philosophy
21:13:25 <alise> olsner: well, it's more like a book with assembly delimited by */ ... /* :-)
21:13:31 <zzo38> I have written several Forth systems, and programmed in some others too
21:13:34 <SgeoN2> Ultimate low level language?
21:13:39 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
21:13:44 <alise> SgeoN2: and ultimate high level language!
21:13:53 <ais523> I'm not certain I consider Forth a programming language
21:13:57 <ais523> it's more like a very lightweight OS
21:14:07 <SgeoN2> I like things where control structures are implemented in the language a LOT
21:14:30 <alise> SgeoN2: then you'll marry Forth.
21:14:40 <alise> ais523: ever played Rogue?
21:14:40 <SgeoN2> Any nice graphical Forth environments?
21:14:48 <alise> SgeoN2: uh, there may be. you don't really want one
21:14:50 <ais523> alise: no, although I've played original Hack
21:14:59 <zzo38> SgeoN2: Maybe, colorForth.
21:15:08 <zzo38> But you can use Forth fine without any graphical environments.
21:15:12 <ais523> SgeoN2: that question misses the point entirely
21:15:13 <alise> SgeoN2: in fact the only decent forth environment is NOT even a file -- writing code in a file is /not/ what Forth is about
21:15:16 <alise> it's about interactive development
21:15:26 <alise> indeed, in the best forth systems, there are no files, you just write code into blocks
21:15:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, little known fact: you can define if in Lisp with only lambdas and macros.
21:15:39 <ais523> forth + another OS seems wrong
21:15:40 <alise> SgeoN2: so basically if you're learning forth: never open an editor
21:15:44 <SgeoN2> I'm kind of trying to compare it to what I know -- Smalltalk
21:15:52 <ais523> forth's the sort of lang I'd run only in a VM, or on baremetal hardware
21:15:57 <ais523> SgeoN2: don't, the two are just completely incomparable
21:15:57 <alise> SgeoN2: let's put it this way: in the best forth systems, you never leave the REPL
21:16:01 <alise> in the entirety of your project
21:16:15 <ais523> alise: well, you have to write the REPL first
21:16:18 <zzo38> ais523: Forth actually works both as its own OS, on another OS, and also embedded into another program. (I have used it in all three ways)
21:16:22 <alise> ais523: erm, forth has a repl
21:16:25 <alise> that's the only interface
21:16:35 <alise> you know, code -> response -> "ok", repeat
21:16:38 <SgeoN2> They sound similar, in as much as they are self enclosed
21:16:41 <ais523> alise: I was under the impression that most Forth programmers started out by writing a minimal interp
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21:16:49 <alise> ais523: you mean coding their own Forth?
21:16:53 <zzo38> ais523: Some Forth programmers do.
21:16:53 <alise> and you don't interpret Forth
21:17:02 <ais523> I consider it as interpreting itself
21:17:15 <ais523> admittedly, sometime Forth interpreting itself causes it to compile itself
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21:17:20 <alise> SgeoN2: now may be a good time to note that a bit of what ais523 is saying is very idiosyncratic and not how most forth programmers view things.
21:17:28 <zzo38> I have written more than one interpreter.
21:17:36 <ais523> meh, idiosyncratic's a good description for me
21:17:44 <alise> ais523: oh, i'm not saying it as a bad thing
21:17:46 <SgeoN2> I'm just going to read this thing you linked me
21:17:48 <alise> just that it's worth taking note
21:17:53 <alise> SgeoN2: that is the best policy.
21:18:07 <alise> ais523: anyway, I'm setting up a Rogue server
21:18:19 <ais523> I'm also the sort of person who believes that portable Forth is inherently missing the point
21:18:23 <alise> ais523: which is incredibly easy, as it takes the savefile on the command line and just puts scores in a rogue.scr file in the current directory.
21:18:32 <ais523> and that you should learn asm before starting Forth
21:18:49 <alise> does anyone know how to write a socket server that takes input unbufferedly?
21:18:58 <alise> like is there some telnet thing to tell the client "hey send me keypresses as they come in"
21:20:00 <SgeoN2> Maybe I'll just wait until I get home to read it
21:20:41 <alise> SgeoN2: probably a good idea
21:20:45 <alise> you need a big screen to read it :P
21:20:46 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: well, duh
21:21:21 <Phantom_Hoover> You can do terminal control stuff with printing, can't you?
21:21:44 <alise> you need ioctl or whatever
21:22:18 <SgeoN2> Yay, so far the dryer hasn't caught fire
21:22:27 <zzo38> Some Forth systems allow "backtick notation". One of them is MegaZeux Forth. Here is the standard include file for MegaZeux Forth: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/mzx1/mzx_extended/megazeux.4th
21:23:12 <alise> zzo38: Does any Forth apart from MegaZeux Forth support this? Apart from ones you wrote?
21:23:16 <zzo38> (Most of it is just definition of constants. But a few control structures are also defined near the bottom.)
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21:23:29 <zzo38> alise: Yes. There are some that support it other than ones I write.
21:23:44 <SgeoN2> Hmm, it should be possible to make a Forth ... thingy for LSL, right?
21:23:58 <zzo38> I think HELFORTH was one such system with backtick notation, but I cannot find it any more.
21:24:13 <alise> SgeoN2: Please stop linking everything to other systems and just enjoy Forth standalone.
21:24:38 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, a lot of things, including mostly things that I have not even heard of.
21:24:51 <ais523> alise: I suppose that's one way in which you can compare Forth and Smalltalk; they both dislike interacting with other languages
21:24:53 <SgeoN2> What about for systems where it would be annoying to attempt to write anything other than machine code on the system itself? Can Forth be used for that sanely?
21:25:12 <alise> ais523: Forth is undoubtedly the more beautiful language, though.
21:25:13 <ais523> SgeoN2: yes, it's one of its main advantages
21:25:19 <alise> Forth is common in embedded development.
21:25:21 <zzo38> SgeoN2: It can, if done in a way that is good for that purpose. Which is possible.
21:25:22 <alise> It is very light-weight.
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21:25:24 <alise> Very, very light-weight.
21:25:45 <ais523> it does require the ability to write code at runtime, though
21:25:57 <zzo38> MegaZeux Forth interacts with two other programming languages, C and Robotic.
21:26:02 <SgeoN2> Ah...thatmay be tricky
21:26:17 <zzo38> It has to do with the way MegaZeux is designed, though.
21:26:27 <zzo38> Robotic is not another invention of mine. Gregory Janson invented Robotic.
21:26:28 <alise> ais523: nmapping a box that's right next to you; rate the craziness from 1 to 10
21:26:38 <zzo38> Robotic was the original programming language for MegaZeux.
21:26:39 <ais523> it depends on the reason
21:26:47 <alise> <ais523> it does require the ability to write code at runtime, though
21:26:51 <alise> you can do indirect threaded code
21:26:55 <SgeoN2> Hmm... Forth in Smalltalk! Smalltalk in Forth! The former is probably more sensible
21:26:59 <alise> that only requires being able to jump to an address stored in a memory location
21:27:12 <alise> SgeoN2: as I said: you will never enjoy Forth unless you let it be separate from other things you know.
21:27:30 <ais523> the first is easier; the second probably makes more sense though
21:27:54 <alise> you were responding to SgeoN2
21:28:29 <pikhq> SgeoN2: Forth is its own OS.
21:28:31 <alise> Initiating Service scan at 21:27
21:28:31 <alise> Scanning 4 services on SE572 (192.168.1.1)
21:28:49 <alise> ais523: am I the only one who just got an urge to get some low-powered hardware and forth it the hell up?
21:29:04 <SgeoN2> Doesn't have to be, afaict from everyone here
21:29:11 <ais523> alise: I got a slight urge, but not enough to act on it
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21:29:31 <alise> ais523: it's just not the same when @ and ! can't really peek and poke any memory location
21:30:05 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: >_<
21:30:07 <ais523> my knowledge about Forth is that I understand vaguely how a typical forth-in-asm works, but can't remember any of the syntax or individual commands
21:30:15 <alise> PORT STATE SERVICE VERSION
21:30:16 <alise> 80/tcp open tcpwrapped
21:30:16 <alise> 443/tcp open https?
21:30:16 <alise> 9000/tcp open tcpwrapped
21:30:16 <alise> 10000/tcp open snet-sensor-mgmt?
21:30:16 <ais523> well, effective syntax
21:30:20 <ais523> it's all just commands really
21:30:21 <alise> totally not helpful, nmap
21:30:21 <alise> ais523: there is no syntax.
21:30:23 <zzo38> alise: Yes.... but in some systems where Forth is embedded into another program, sometimes for security purposes you create memory mapped instead
21:30:38 <ais523> alise: there's syntax in the same sense that ()! is a comment in Underload
21:31:08 <zzo38> In TAVSYS, which is another Forth system I wrote, there is 64K memory cells, which can be accessed by @ and ! unrestricted.
21:31:14 <SgeoN2> Is there a semistandarized way to use if?
21:31:46 <SgeoN2> Can Forth easily sandbox Forth?
21:32:05 <pikhq> SgeoN2: Define "Forth" and "sandbox". >:D
21:32:14 <ais523> hmm, /me reads the proggit article about Google releasing the fastest sort algo ever
21:32:18 <ais523> it's cheating by being O(n)
21:32:32 <alise> SgeoN2: A semistandardised way to use if??
21:32:33 <zzo38> However, TAVSYS also has other storage areas, being a string table, and an object table. When an object is active, the memory locations 0x0000 to 0x01FF are memory mapped to the object. Strings are never memory mapped.
21:32:45 <ais523> it's not a comparison sort
21:32:46 <pikhq> ais523: Being O(n) is not cheating. It just means it's damned well not a comparison sort.
21:32:55 <zzo38> What do you mean, a "semistandardised way to use if"?
21:33:00 <alise> ais523: I said nothing...
21:33:06 <pikhq> Oh, radix sort. Love that one.
21:33:15 <alise> ais523: No, we /won't/ do something THAT evil to the horse.
21:33:16 <ais523> alise: you said "What?"; I thought you were responding to me
21:33:26 <SgeoN2> If is usually implemented in Forth, apparently. Can I usually take statements that have if from one Forth and put it into another?
21:33:53 <alise> <alise> SgeoN2: A semistandardised way to use if??
21:33:54 <zzo38> Control structures can easily be implemented directly in Forth, including IF and so on.
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21:34:04 <alise> SgeoN2: if is implemented in Forth in the standard library ...
21:34:04 <alise> Not by you ..............................
21:34:10 <SgeoN2> Zzo, I understand that
21:34:13 <ais523> there's a standard library?
21:34:22 <pikhq> There's a standard anything?
21:34:38 <zzo38> : IF` 0=GOTO` ORIG ; : THEN` HERE SWAP ! ; : ELSE` GOTO` ORIG SWAP THEN` ;
21:34:38 <SgeoN2> Forth is somewhat portable?
21:34:40 <fizzie> There's the ANS Forth words, you could call those standard-ish.
21:34:42 <alise> ais523: ANS Forth, for instance
21:34:49 <zzo38> That is one way, that works in some Forth systems.
21:34:56 <alise> there's predefined words
21:35:11 <ais523> zzo38: what's with the backquotes?
21:35:35 <zzo38> Different Forth systems might have different standard libraries, alsthough not always, sometimes it is a few different ways. Somewhat like Plain TeX and Plain METAFONT are simple libraries for their programs.
21:35:42 <alise> I think SgeoN2 is playing a game where he asks a question, I say "no, with slight traces of yes", and he asks the opposite question :)
21:35:59 <alise> ais523: some crazy MegaZeux thing that nothing else implements
21:36:02 <fizzie> alise: "get some low-powered hardware and forth it the hell up" -- there's an ongoing thread in comp.lang.forth about 6502 forths, inspired by someone making his old Commodore PET run. It has a delightful percentage of 6502 asm in the message contents, even though it's a bit rambling.
21:36:25 <zzo38> ais523: This is used in Forth systems which use backtick notation. Not all Forth systems do it, but TAVSYS and MegaZeux both do. So does HELFORTH, although I don't know if HELFORTH can use these definitions of IF ELSE THEN exactly as is.
21:36:25 <alise> anyone want to help me break my router?!
21:36:27 <ais523> 6502 asm was the fourth programming I learnt
21:36:29 <SgeoN2> I have an old Pentium II...
21:36:43 <ais523> alise: you nmapped your own router?
21:37:16 <alise> ais523: to try and find a telnet/ssh server
21:37:17 <ais523> that's not completely insane
21:37:28 <alise> uh oh, my router may have disconnected in retaliation
21:37:44 <ais523> you're still online, though
21:38:00 <zzo38> In backtick notation, it works somewhat like that: The word IF` is the instructions for compiling the word IF
21:38:20 <ais523> admittedly, I've known a computer I've been using to have IRC but nothing else connected
21:39:04 <ais523> hmm, /how/ do you prove that you can't comparison-sort faster than n log n?
21:39:07 <zzo38> So : IF` 0=GOTO` ORIG ; means whenever the word IF should be compiled, it should compile 0=GOTO and then execute ORIG instead of compiling the word IF directly.
21:39:48 <fizzie> ais523: There's at least some sort of information-theoretical justification for it, but I've forgotten the details.
21:39:49 <zzo38> Is understandable to you?
21:39:56 <ais523> ah, I see; it's a different syntax for the "immediate" thing that's used by some other forths
21:40:03 <ais523> with one level of indirection
21:40:45 <zzo38> ais523: Yes. (And it is not a syntax I have invented, despite some people's belief.)
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21:47:33 <alise_> is there an option to less to restrict it? no running shell commands, etc
21:49:42 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
21:49:53 <alise_> you'd think LESSSECURE would reduce security :)
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21:55:11 <alise_> self.request.send(clear)
21:55:11 <alise_> rogue = Popen(['rogue', '-s'], stdin=PIPE, stdout=PIPE)
21:55:11 <alise_> less = Popen(['less'], stdin=rogue.stdin, stdout=self.request)
21:55:14 * alise_ wonders why this doesn't work
21:55:48 <ais523> that capital P on Popen gives me worries
21:55:48 <olsner> ais523: it's about the number of permutations of a list, and the number of bits you (may, in the worst case) need to discover about the list you're trying to sort
21:56:01 <ais523> olsner: yep, I guessed it was something like that
21:56:07 <alise_> ais523: why worries? it's a class
21:56:12 <olsner> I think it's something trivial like log(n!) = nlog(n) in the end
21:56:18 <ais523> alise_: NetHack flashbacks
21:56:27 <ais523> it uses macros starting with capital letters to indicate wrappers around something else
21:56:29 <alise_> do they use Popen with a capital P or something?
21:56:42 <ais523> e.g. Sprintf = a NetHack version of sprintf that acts the same way
21:56:57 <alise_> why is it wrapped, then?
21:57:15 <ais523> or Hallucinating = sugar for the struct field that says if the character is hallucinating (so it's assignable and readable, and acts like a global variable even though it isn't)
21:57:27 <ais523> perhaps for portability
21:58:10 <alise_> ais523: don't you hate it when you think of the obvious, dumb solution to your current bug
21:58:15 <alise_> and it still fails in the exact same way?
21:58:38 <ais523> that often indicates a second bug
21:58:44 <alise_> but it's so irritating
21:58:46 <ais523> but it can be a little frustrating
21:58:58 <ais523> I can sometimes catch so many bugs trying to track down a different bug
21:59:05 <ais523> just because I'm rereading the code looking for <s>scams</s> bugs
21:59:29 <Sgeo> Are you SURE I should read Jonesforth before reading say, the wiki page?
22:00:08 <ais523> is Jonesforth the Forth interp in literate asm + Forth?
22:00:14 <ais523> if so, read it first, it's excellent
22:00:16 <olsner> Sgeo: yes, I'm reading it now and almost know forth now
22:00:49 <Sgeo> ais523, it _looks_ like literate asm to me
22:01:39 <Sgeo> Ok, so : ; is Forth syntax for defining stuff?
22:01:46 <Sgeo> : DOUBLE DUP + ;
22:01:47 <alise_> don't try and skip ahead
22:01:51 <alise_> just accept jonesforth for what it is and read on
22:01:56 <ais523> : and ; are Forth commands
22:02:00 <Sgeo> I'm looking at the section called THE DICTIONARY
22:02:13 <ais523> using them in a pair acts rather like a syntax for defining, though
22:02:16 <ais523> but read the actual definitions
22:02:17 <alise_> for now, you can just read : X ... ; as define the word X to be ...
22:02:25 <alise_> until the actual definition is explained later
22:02:37 <alise_> dup duplicates the top of the stack, but you probably could have guessed that already
22:02:55 <olsner> this is exactly why you should learn the interpreter first and the language afterwards :P
22:03:33 <Sgeo> The dictionary is a double linked list?
22:03:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Low level x86 thought: could you malloc a block, then set rsp to it?
22:03:39 <alise_> Sgeo: in this implementation.
22:03:47 <alise_> olsner: unfortunately jonesforth /does/ say ": ... ;" at the start
22:03:58 <Sgeo> Why didn't he say "double linked list"?
22:04:03 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: "low level x86" and "malloc" don't normally go together
22:04:19 <olsner> Sgeo: no, it's a single-linked list afaict
22:04:20 <ais523> DOS has a syscall that acts exactly like malloc, but that's kind-of unusual
22:04:33 <alise_> Sgeo: it's exactly what jonesforth says it is :P
22:04:33 <Sgeo> Oh, it's backwards
22:05:08 <Sgeo> Maybe I'll stop commentatering
22:05:12 <alise_> Sgeo: because it's a stack
22:05:45 <Sgeo> Is that an implementation thing, for fundamental to Forth?
22:05:57 * Sgeo guesses the latter
22:05:59 <alise_> Implementation. But try not to think about Forth-the-language right now.
22:06:06 <alise_> Well, I suppose it's half-way.
22:06:06 <olsner> the implicit shadowing seems fundamental, the rest is probably implementation
22:06:11 <alise_> All that really matters is Jonesforth, at the moment.
22:06:17 <alise_> You can disregard all other Forth implementations until later.
22:07:16 <zzo38> There is no syntax in Forth. : is the command to read the next word and enter compile mode with that word meaning that definition, and ; is the word to end the current definition and compile the command to stop it, and go back into interpret mode.
22:07:58 <zzo38> Some people try to write syntax highlighting software to highlight Forth syntax, but it doesn't work so well, unless you write the syntax highlighting software itself in Forth.
22:08:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:08:16 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
22:08:44 <ais523> malloc still assumes a libc
22:09:01 <alise_> ais523: i think he means using asm on linux with libc
22:09:24 <ais523> I'd consider low-level Linux to use sbrk and mmap if it wants memory
22:09:40 <alise_> i think you're missing the point of his question. maybe.
22:10:13 <olsner> mmap seems like a better thing for allocating a stack
22:10:19 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Quit: Quit).
22:10:35 <alise_> does anyone know how to force less into believing it's running on a terminal, even if i'm piping it around?
22:11:08 <Vorpal> <olsner> mmap seems like a better thing for allocating a stack <-- mmap is used for the stack on linux
22:11:19 <Vorpal> well it is mmap + some magic
22:11:54 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: so you're asking about setting rsp? then yes, AFAIK you're free to set %rsp to whatever you want
22:12:18 <zzo38> alise_: Yes I have tried to do that once, in a computer at FreeGeek, trying to make a program in a pipe believe its output is a terminal, I looked at the man pages, and yet I didn't quite figure it out.
22:13:14 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: I think it's a perfectly sane thing to do occasionally
22:13:38 <Sgeo> I might not have comp time until later
22:18:04 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: %rsp is a general purpose register that call and ret happen to use.
22:18:33 <alise_> pikhq: Here, you tell me how to make less believe it's talking to a terminal which just so happens to be a socket.
22:19:12 <alise_> I can use script, I bet
22:21:18 <alise_> ais523: what's the termcast script again?
22:21:44 <alise_> yes, but then my harddrive misplaced itself into format land
22:22:02 <ais523> script -f >( cat ./ratry_login - | nc -q5 noway.ratry.ru 31337 > /dev/null ) "$@"
22:22:11 <ais523> and ./ratry_login is hello username password
22:23:58 <alise_> ais523: feels weird to use script to just run a command though...
22:24:01 <alise_> do you know how nethack servers do it?
22:24:19 <ais523> almost exactly like that, but with ttyrec rather than script
22:24:24 <Sgeo> Is this codeword stuff Jonesforth or Forth?
22:24:30 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:24:31 <ais523> (and ttyrec is just a version of script with more precise timestamps)
22:24:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
22:24:49 <ais523> what script's doing there is to capture the screen output
22:24:50 <Sgeo> Also, can this special interpreter function be written in FORTH itself?
22:24:55 <ais523> there's nothing really weird about that, given the circumstances
22:25:46 <alise_> ais523: so script -f -c 'some command' >socket should work fine, right?
22:25:51 <alise_> where >socket is done in the programming language, not a shell, ofc
22:26:18 <ais523> alise_: not really, script writes to a file
22:26:22 <Sgeo> I love it when it says "AS you will have seen"
22:26:30 <ais523> the >() makes an anonymous pipe for it to write to, I think
22:26:39 <alise_> ais523: yes, but if you give script's stdout as a socket in a programming language...
22:26:42 <ais523> which then gets passed with /dev/fd/1 syntax
22:26:42 <alise_> script = Popen(['script', '-f', '-c', 'rogue -s | less -c'],
22:26:42 <alise_> stdin=PIPE, stdout=self.request)
22:26:50 <alise_> after all, sockets are files
22:26:57 <ais523> then it'd be script -f socket -c 'some command'
22:27:05 <alise_> ais523: err, you can't do that
22:27:06 <Sgeo> Is there any reason to use DOCOL in ordinary FORTH code?
22:27:08 <alise_> sockets aren't files on the filesystem
22:27:12 <alise_> script = Popen(['script', '-f', '-c', 'rogue -s | less -c'],
22:27:12 <alise_> stdin=PIPE, stdout=self.request)
22:27:24 <ais523> in Linux, /dev/fd/number
22:27:24 <alise_> Sgeo: what does it do again?
22:27:25 <zzo38> Sgeo: That is for you to figure out if you have reason or not.
22:27:29 <ais523> where number is the socket's ID
22:27:38 <ais523> or you can use a named socket if you prefer
22:27:49 <Sgeo> alise_, it's the codeword/FORTH interpreter/thingy
22:27:49 <alise_> ais523: you DO realise you can specify process' stdins and stdouts as any file in C or whatever, right?
22:27:58 <alise_> including sockets without using a filename?
22:28:00 <Sgeo> That does return stack stuff
22:28:09 <ais523> alise_: you DO realise that script /does not write its recording to stdout/, do you?
22:28:16 <ais523> that's what I'm trying to get at
22:28:23 <alise_> ais523: then why does "script -f >foo" work?
22:28:30 <ais523> that's not what the script says
22:28:34 <ais523> it says script -f >(foo)
22:28:40 <ais523> where >() is a bashism
22:28:48 <alise_> script -f >foo /works/
22:29:16 <ais523> alise_: hmm, I think script must be sending the /original/ output to stdout
22:29:22 <alise_> indeed my code snippet works too
22:29:25 <ais523> thus, you get the recording, but can't see what happens onscreen yourself
22:29:32 <alise_> that's sort of what i want
22:29:34 <ais523> alise_: script -f >foo creates a file called "typescript", doesn't it/
22:29:38 <alise_> since i'm sending to a socket
22:29:41 <ais523> because a filename isn't specified
22:29:50 <alise_> you need /dev/null in there
22:30:07 <alise_> but this whole thing makes script fool the command into thinking it's running on a tty, so it's all good
22:30:15 <Sgeo> 4+ and 4- are really worth implementing in Assembly?
22:30:23 <ais523> alise_: because it is running on a tty
22:30:27 <ais523> that's what script /does/, creates a tty
22:30:31 <alise_> ais523: yes, precisely
22:30:42 <alise_> Sgeo: it's just an example
22:31:20 <ais523> 4 is the size of a pointer on an x86
22:31:24 <ais523> so that might be one reason
22:32:20 <alise_> Okay, /now/ all I have to do is figure out how to tell a Telnet client "yo, gimme raw keyboard codes, innit, instead of line-buffering. Innit."
22:32:52 <ais523> alise_: are you talking about termcast atm?
22:33:11 <alise_> ais523: nope, I'm still writing NetRogue (the deliberately-misleadingly-named internet Rogue server)
22:33:25 <alise_> I need to send the Telnet client into raw keyboard input mode
22:33:31 <alise_> so that rogue and other programs work properly
22:33:34 <alise_> rather than going "wtf"
22:35:37 <ais523> DO SUPPRESS-GO-AHEAD DO ECHO WILL SUPPRESS-GO-AHEAD WILL ECHO
22:36:04 <ais523> this has nothing in theory to do with raw keyboard input
22:36:10 <ais523> but in practice, telnet servers tend to get the hint
22:37:11 <alise_> ais523: no, /I'm/ the telnet server
22:37:20 <alise_> trying to coerce the client into giving me raw keyboard input like nethack.alt.org does
22:37:24 <ais523> err, telnet's symmetrical
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22:38:35 <alise_> i'm not sure what character sequence <ais523> DO SUPPRESS-GO-AHEAD DO ECHO WILL SUPPRESS-GO-AHEAD WILL ECHO corresponds to
22:38:39 <alise_> also, is that really what NAO sends?
22:38:53 <ais523> I think so, at least it's what Jettyplay sends NAO
22:39:04 <ais523> (I told you it was symmetrical, even with respect to sending and receiving)
22:39:12 <ais523> (and with respect to asking for and turning on options)
22:39:22 <ais523> let me check specifically what NAO sends, I have it recorded somewhere
22:40:20 <ais523> yep, DO SGA DO ECHO WILL SGA WILL ECHO
22:40:22 <ais523> the order doesn't matter
22:40:40 <alise_> ais523: do you know what characters they correspond to? also, presumably all prefixed with \037, right?
22:41:59 <ais523> 255 253 3 255 251 3 255 253 1 255 251 1
22:42:20 <ais523> but you need to implement enough of the telnet protocol to avoid infinite loops
22:42:27 <alise_> i implement none of it
22:42:36 <alise_> I suppose there is no way to make all this work with netcat?
22:42:41 * ais523 glares at netcat's "telnet mode", which only half-implements the protocol
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22:43:31 <ais523> netcat is very shoddy with its telnet impl; connecting it to a real telnet server/client the other side notices the loop and breaks it, but connecting two to each other would create a loop
22:43:59 <alise_> ais523: erm, we are talking Hobbit netcat here, right?
22:44:09 <alise_> if you mean GNU netcat or whatever, it's irrelevant what it does because i don't care about it
22:44:16 <ais523> I know it was /very/ hackish
22:44:18 <alise_> i don't think hobbit netcat does telnet
22:44:24 <ais523> hmm, maybe it is GNU netcat
22:44:26 <alise_> ais523: i mean nethack in raw tcp mode anyway
22:44:28 <ais523> anyway, it doesn't claim to do telnet
22:44:45 <ais523> it just claims to strip out telnet metadata and send sane-looking responses
22:44:59 <alise_> "Two movies that Legend Films are noted for is the colorization of the exploitation film Reefer Madness, for which certain color schemes were used to create a psychedelic effect in its viewers, and Plan 9 from Outer Space." ;; but WHY?
22:45:16 <alise_> ais523: ok, so if I send that magical sequence, what do i need to handle as a response to avoid an infinite loop?
22:45:50 <ais523> you probably want to negotiate DO BINARY too in order that the other end can actually send the keypad codes
22:45:55 <ais523> I imagine they don't fit into the normal text range
22:46:12 <alise_> Gah, this is so complicated.
22:46:17 <alise_> Why the heck can't I just say "raw keyboard mode"?
22:46:41 <ais523> alise_: because telnet's default settings are designed for communicating with typewriters
22:47:05 <alise_> ais523: So do I have to "negotiate"? Can't I just spit this stuff at the client and let it set it?
22:47:33 <ais523> you do, because the client will be requesting modes that you probably don't implement
22:47:37 <ais523> and you have to let it know you don't implement them
22:47:45 <Sgeo> "Start address+length is the normal way to represent strings in FORTH (not ending in an
22:47:45 <Sgeo> ASCII NUL character as in C), and so FORTH strings can contain any character including NULs
22:47:45 <Sgeo> and can be any length."
22:47:52 <Sgeo> What about length of the length?
22:48:30 <ais523> alise_: http://pastebin.ca/1928584
22:49:11 <ais523> your impl will probably be simpler because you don't care what terminal type the other system is using (or do you?)
22:49:14 <alise_> ais523: I think I will just cry now.
22:49:17 <ais523> whereas NAO does, so jettyplay has to tell it
22:49:34 <alise_> Yeah, I don't care about that; I'm just assuming basic VT100 stuff, since that's all Rogue uses.
22:49:56 <alise_> ais523: But seriously, what? What the hell? How to WHAT can this be so complex?
22:50:05 <alise_> I weep for anyone who writes Telnet.
22:50:10 <ais523> I don't see why you think that's complex!
22:50:21 <ais523> it's actually pretty simple
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22:50:55 <ais523> line 232 onwards is the bit that handles options you don't support
22:50:56 <alise_> ais523: it's complex for the simple network server that i thought this would be
22:51:05 <alise_> is there any issue with just copying your initial send sequence?
22:51:17 <ais523> that's less than 100 lines, and over 20 are comments
22:51:29 <ais523> alise_: you'll end up passing up the other side's reply to Rogue
22:51:41 <ais523> and I don't know how it'll interpret it
22:51:52 <ais523> also, if the other side asks a question, it may hang waiting for your answer
22:52:14 <alise_> ais523: actually, i display a menu first
22:52:18 <alise_> but i didn't mean that
22:52:24 <alise_> I meant is your initial sequence ok for this
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22:52:29 <alise_> or does it have additional stuff?
22:52:39 <alise_> also, it's more the state machine that irritated me, since the code is ridiculously simple right now :-)
22:52:41 <ais523> leave out the WILL NEW-ENVIRON and WILL TERMINAL-TYPE
22:52:59 <ais523> a telnet server probably shouldn't offer to send environment variables and terminal type to the client
22:53:17 <ais523> also, leave out the NAWS too, /it/ doesn't care what size /your/ window is
22:53:20 <alise_> Opinion added to database: Telnet = fucked up.
22:53:39 <SgeoN1> Maybe I can read it on my phone
22:53:41 <alise_> ais523: whyyy did you have to say this after i stripped it into a string
22:53:48 <ais523> and change the WILL TOGGLE-FLOW-CONTROL to DO TOGGLE-FLOW-CONTROL, as you're on the other end of the connection
22:54:08 <alise_> what about do echo / will echo?
22:54:09 <ais523> actually, just leave that one out; NAO cares, but telnet clients don't seem to
22:54:13 <ais523> the order doesn't matter
22:54:19 <ais523> reversing that you get will echo / do echo
22:54:23 <ais523> which is the same in a different order
22:54:34 <ais523> ("echo" here means "I'm handling your character echoing")
22:54:45 <ais523> (and telnet clients won't just send raw keypresses without that, typically)
22:55:09 <alise_> so get rid of toggle-flow-control right?
22:55:28 <alise_> WILL BINARY, DO BINARY, DO SGA, WILL SGA, DO ECHO, WILL ECHO
22:55:38 <ais523> looks about right, and it's nice and symmetrical
22:56:02 <ais523> then if you don't mind using the "netcat hack", just send DONT or WONT to any other request by the other side
22:56:20 <alise_> \255\251\0\255\253\0\255\253\3\255\251\3\255\253\1\255\251\1
22:56:22 <ais523> it leads to an infinite loop of DONTs and WONTs if the other side is badly-behaved, as you're not meant to send the same signal twice in a row
22:56:43 <alise_> ais523: so that would break netcat?
22:56:47 <ais523> (as in, you don't send DONT X DONT X without a DO X in the middle)
22:56:50 <ais523> alise_: only in telnet-hack mode
22:56:58 <ais523> it's a hack that only breaks if both ends of the connection use it
22:57:13 <alise_> ais523: well, whatever, i'll just assume the client is well-behaved
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22:57:34 <alise_> '\255\251\0\255\253\0\255\253\3\255\251\3\255\253\1\255\251\1')
22:57:37 <alise_> no hanging or anything
22:57:39 <ais523> so, say, GNU telnet sends you "WILL NAWS" (I'll tell you my window size if you want) and you reply "DONT NAWS" (I don't care)
22:57:39 <alise_> it just simply has no effect
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22:59:04 <fizzie> Aren't \nnn's usually in octal?
22:59:13 <fizzie> At least Python's are.
22:59:15 <ais523> are you sure you've set the socket to unbuffered at your end?
22:59:34 <alise_> ais523: No. I don't think Python even lets you do that after the fact.
22:59:39 <alise_> I suppose I could write my own socket machinery.
22:59:44 <alise_> Time to convert them all to hex.
22:59:46 <fizzie> Do the \xnn instead, it's more readable.
23:00:08 <ais523> alise_: "after the fact"? that's the only way to do it IIRC
23:00:37 <ais523> you also have to allow for the fact that 255 is an escape character (thus you have to undouble 255s when receiving and double them when sending)
23:00:44 <ais523> (except as part of a negotiation sequence like that)
23:01:05 <alise_> ais523: I'll never be sending \255s.
23:01:35 <ais523> why do you not just use a telnet library?
23:02:12 <alise_> ais523: there's a telnetlib but it appears to only do clients in python
23:02:18 <alise_> and I'm not touching Twisted
23:02:24 <alise_> (dunno if it even does telnet)
23:02:51 <ais523> just translate my impl from Jettyplay?
23:02:57 <alise_> ais523: unless you think symmetricity would make http://docs.python.org/library/telnetlib.html fine?
23:03:06 * ais523 checks the logs for the URL
23:03:25 <alise_> apart from the .open() bit wanting host/port
23:03:29 <alise_> I could probably hack in a .socket = foo
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23:03:58 <alise_> It has non-blocking stuff, at least.
23:04:01 <SgeoN1> I'm up to the part with : and ;
23:05:00 <ais523> alise_: hmm, is source for that available?
23:05:25 <ais523> that library seems very general, it doesn't seem to handle anything but the default WONT/DONT for everything
23:05:32 <alise_> ais523: /usr/lib/python2.6/telnetlib.py
23:06:40 <olsner> http://bsx.ru/~gong/lj/atari-forth.jpg :D
23:07:50 <alise_> well, the sending works now
23:07:56 <alise_> olsner: old :) but still great
23:07:59 <ais523> beh, that's not even a complete implementation
23:08:19 <alise_> olsner: I wonder what the artist was thinking when he decided "And now I'll draw the pants, complete with erect bulge..."
23:08:22 <ais523> in fact, it uses the netcat hack
23:08:32 <alise_> ais523: nutin' wrong with that
23:08:39 <ais523> my opinion on Python's libraries has just gone way down
23:08:49 <ais523> (although admittedly, the Perl telnet libraries have similar issues)
23:09:26 <alise_> ais523: you'll be horrified to learn that I'm just going to ignore all other commands
23:09:34 <alise_> it sends requests and stuff, but ignoring them breaks nothing
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23:10:11 <ais523> so how are you handling incoming IACs? just passing them straight on to Rogue?
23:10:35 <alise_> ais523: I won't get any once Rogue starts, will I?
23:10:49 <ais523> in theory you can get them at any time
23:10:57 <ais523> you're likely to get one if the client resizes their terminal, for instance
23:11:00 <ais523> (although not guaranteed)
23:11:11 <ais523> (especially as you said you didn't care about the terminal size)
23:11:36 <alise_> ais523: just tried it; nope
23:11:53 <ais523> hmm, actually you didn't say you didn't care about the terminal size
23:11:55 <alise_> the nice thing here is that telnet(1) is much less irritating for me than your conception of an average client :D
23:12:08 <alise_> telnet appears to be coded for broken servers
23:13:58 <ais523> well, it seems vaguely unlikely that you'll come across a client that decides it suddenly can't handle binary halfway through the session
23:14:06 <ais523> (the protocol actually allows for that!)
23:14:28 <alise_> ais523: er, how do I tell if the client's disconnected?
23:14:33 <alise_> the socket doesn't close; I just get empty strings back
23:14:41 <ais523> the socket /should/ close
23:14:45 <ais523> that sounds like a bug in the socket library
23:15:01 <ais523> at least, you should get EOFs back
23:15:08 <ais523> which in Python causes an exception
23:15:56 <ais523> the telnet protocol is really clever, actually
23:16:30 <ais523> if both sides try to negotiate the same options and the messages cross, each side interprets the other's question as an answer
23:18:53 <ais523> hmm, just noticed an error in Jettyplay's impl; if the other side asks it to send the window size, it sends the size, /then/ accepts the request
23:19:24 <ais523> but that only happens if the other side turned window-size negotiation off then on again, which seems a little implausible
23:24:13 <fizzie> Speaking of which! I didn't really follow the run-in-pty discussion earlier, but Python has the "pty" package -- http://docs.python.org/library/pty.html -- that can be very useful for such fakery. It's a bit on the non-portable side, though, and might not really apply in these circumstances for all I know.
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23:48:21 <alise_> <ais523> if both sides try to negotiate the same options and the messages cross, each side interprets the other's question as an answer
23:48:25 <alise_> why not just make the two the same?
23:49:09 <alise_> ais523: ttyrec is basically just script with timing information, right?
23:49:11 <ais523> DO BINARY is either a question ("please switch into binary mode, if you're willing") or an answer ("you said you supported binary mode, please turn it on")
23:50:02 <alise_> ais523: and watching a game can simply be "ttytail foo", right?
23:50:17 <ais523> ttytail is something different
23:50:22 <ais523> (tail -F piped to ttyplay, that is)
23:50:34 <ais523> hmm, ttytail does do something similar
23:50:41 <ais523> except it monitors directories for new ttyrecs turning up
23:52:26 <alise_> hmm, tty* have no manpages
23:53:07 <alise_> tells you how many seconds long it is
23:53:21 <alise_> since there are no manpages, do you know what the -u and -a switches do for ttyrec?
23:53:43 <alise_> -p Peek another person's ttyrecord ;; and isn't this probably better to use than tail -F? any rason not to?
23:53:53 <ais523> no reason not to, I don't think
23:54:02 <alise_> also, surely it should be -f, not -F?
23:54:14 <ais523> from the manpage: -a Append the output to file or ttyrecord, rather than overwriting it.
23:54:18 <ais523> -f and -F do much the same thing
23:54:24 <ais523> -f follows the inode, -F follows the filename
23:54:31 <ais523> normally -F is more useful for what I use tail for
23:54:37 <alise_> since the ttyrec should be for the entire game
23:54:52 <ais523> -u With this option, ttyrec automatically calls uudecode(1) and saves its output when uuencoded data appear on the session. It allow you to transfer files from remote host. You can call ttyrec with this option, login to the remote host and invoke uuencode(1) on it for the file you want to transfer.
23:55:22 <ais523> much better than the workarounds I had to do with automatically generated printf commands last time I had that problem
23:55:40 <ais523> (part of the issue was that the other system had nothing but a stripped-down busybox)
23:55:49 <ais523> (and I was trying to send a binary to it over a serial cable)
23:55:51 <alise_> yay, rogue at least operates
23:55:59 <alise_> now to wrap it in save file logic and ttyrec
23:56:04 <alise_> and then write the viewing interface
23:56:23 <alise_> ais523: I don't suppose telnet has a standardised facility for saving to the client's disk? :-D
23:56:30 <alise_> ("Yes, it's called FTP.")
23:56:34 <ais523> that doesn't even make sense...
23:56:54 <ais523> what if the client is a typewriter?
23:57:09 <alise_> ais523: then I shoot them
23:58:12 <ais523> incidentally, it's fun to compare Windows telnet, GNU telnet, and the RFCs in explaining the mess with character-at-a-time sending
23:58:19 <ais523> GNU telnet just glosses over the technical details entirely
23:58:47 <ais523> Windows telnet talks about how the whole situation is a kludge and what its interpretation is
23:59:12 <ais523> and the RFCs talk about how an example in the original RFC was misinterpreted as a normative statement, which is especially fun as it's ambiguous
23:59:30 <ais523> but pretty much everyone agrees that ECHO and SGA simultaneously mean character-at-a-time sending, even though it makes no sense
23:59:44 <ais523> the debates are mostly about what happens if you just have one or the other
00:00:54 <ais523> (this is why /servers/ ask the /clients/ to handle echo for them, even though it otherwise makes no sense)
00:01:29 <alise_> ais523: I am ... so confused.
00:01:48 <ais523> it's easier than most esolangs...
00:02:01 <ais523> now I want to make a telnet-based esolang, somehow
00:04:58 <alise_> ais523: yes, but esolangs are meant to be like that
00:12:13 <alise_> argh, i have to write login logic
00:12:18 <alise_> writing programs is so boring
00:14:08 <alise_> ais523: is there a way to turn off raw mode that doesn't make me want to die?
00:14:30 <ais523> the same sequence as before, with DONT and WONT rather than DO and WILL
00:14:37 <ais523> and then the other side will go back to default settings
00:14:46 <ais523> which may also be raw mode, as far as telnet is concerned
00:15:04 <alise_> what are the values of (DO,WILL,DONT,WONT), just for the record?
00:15:09 <alise_> just so i can replace them :-)
00:15:13 <alise_> thanks for the help btw
00:15:45 <ais523> the interesting codes are from line 220 onwards at http://pastebin.ca/1928584
00:15:54 <ais523> DONT=254, DO=253, WONT=252, WILL=251
00:16:11 <ais523> oh, you probably want to leave on DO BINARY
00:16:44 <ais523> mostly because the consequences of turning that off were never really properly defined
00:19:12 <alise_> ais523: and turning on binary is ok even if you didn't turn it off?
00:19:59 <ais523> sending a negotiation code twice in a row without sending the opposite in between is specifically banned by the standard
00:20:11 <ais523> mostly because if the other side is buggy, it'll try to reply
00:20:14 <alise_> ais523: yes, but so is blatantly ignoring the client's requests.
00:20:57 <ais523> the response to DONT X is /always/ WONT X, btw, unless the other client's already sent WONT XD
00:21:00 <alise_> AttributeError: '_socketobject' object has no attribute 'readline'
00:21:07 <alise_> I hate the part where Python sockets do fuck all for you.
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00:27:27 <ais523> that's what... TCP is?
00:30:54 <alise_> ais523: TCP over Telnet, then
00:31:27 <alise_> there's actually IPv6 over Facebook, an implementation of RFC 5514: tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5514
00:31:49 <alise_> unfortunately, as the set of people who would both install such an awesome "application" and both use Facebook is very small, it doesn't work very well
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00:33:04 <alise_> ('\xff\xfc\x03\xff\xfe\x03\xff\xfe\x01alise\n', '\xff\xfb\x03\xff\xfd\x03\xff\xfc\x01\xff\xfd\x01\xff\xfc\x03\xff\xfe\x03\xff\xfe\x01')
00:33:10 <alise_> stupid replying clients
00:33:35 <alise_> solution: strip out invalid chars!
00:34:12 <ais523> alise_: you would expect the client to reply...
00:34:29 <ais523> only really insane clients like your server wouldn't
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00:35:13 <ais523> why aren't you just using dgamelaunch, btw?
00:38:13 <alise_> ais523: well, I forgot entirely that it could do this sort of stuff to start with, and *also* thought this would be EASY
00:38:24 <alise_> besides... any moron can stick a dgamelaunch up and call it a server
00:38:31 <alise_> but it doesn't have that earthly quality, you know?
00:38:39 <alise_> homegrown server, complete with brokennes
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00:38:46 <ais523> just like any moron can implement telnet incorrectly if given lots of hints over IRC?
00:40:16 <alise_> i tried reading the spec but then i cried
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00:48:12 <pikhq> And now, I have gone ahead and made for minimal chrome on most things. Because dammit, I hate using screenspace.
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00:52:32 * oerjan read that as criminal mome. or something like that.
00:53:38 <ais523> pikhq: when I was young, I customized Word to have two rows of toolbars on each side
00:53:40 <ais523> and I actually used them
00:53:46 <ais523> (and this was on a 640x480 screen...)
00:54:31 <pikhq> There is no need for the titlebar to be any taller than needed to show a line of text!
00:54:42 <pikhq> Nor is there any need for the panel to be any taller than that!
00:55:33 <ais523> why do you need titlebars at all?
00:56:11 <pikhq> Because otherwise this would look like a terminal running on a framebuffer; P
00:57:00 <pikhq> *Is* there any need for titlebars at all?
00:57:17 <pikhq> I'm going with "no", then.
00:57:26 <alise_> pikhq: All you need is a 1px window border. Then you have evilwm.
00:57:32 <alise_> http://www.6809.org.uk/evilwm/images/cap1.jpg
01:02:35 <alise_> pikhq: Or, you know, just install evilwm.
01:02:43 <alise_> http://www.6809.org.uk/evilwm/
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01:08:29 <alise_> ais523: can I count on the response-questions to my uncooking/making-raw being the same length no matter what the client?
01:08:32 <alise_> since they're systematic
01:09:07 <ais523> well, no, but you probably will anyway
01:09:33 <alise_> ais523: "can" as in "can without breaking telnet and netcat's fake mode" :P
01:09:38 <ais523> after you remake-raw, it's possible that the client will try to turn on other features
01:09:43 * pikhq has come to the conclusion the Mist theme for GTK is the best theme.
01:10:23 <alise_> pikhq: no, GreyMist is
01:10:32 <alise_> (my modification of Mist's gtkrc that makes it grey instead of blue)
01:10:36 <alise_> (for selections, etc.)
01:10:48 <pikhq> alise_: Screenshot?
01:11:05 <alise_> pikhq: Don't have one at the moment, but just imagine Mist, except whenever you see blue, imagine it's just a darker grey.
01:11:34 <alise_> pikhq: Oh, it also decreases menu padding to be a bit more space-conserving.
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01:14:07 <pikhq> alise_: Should be in ~/.themes, BTW
01:14:28 <alise_> pikhq: I know. I /did/ write it. :P
01:14:37 <alise_> "Reading archive, please wait..."
01:14:39 <alise_> This may take a while.
01:14:42 <alise_> It is a rather big archive.
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01:20:50 * pikhq contemplates good diacritics for making a better, less odd-looking romanisation scheme for Japanese
01:21:46 <pikhq> Are there any that exist pre-composed for: a, i, u, e, o, k, s, t, n, h, m, y, r, w?
01:22:35 <alise_> pikhq: why not just use combining chars?
01:22:57 <pikhq> alise_: That'd involve adding the combining chars to my Compose settings.
01:23:13 <alise_> pikhq: compose keys can output multiple chars
01:23:21 <alise_> THE MORE YOU KNOW #######*
01:23:32 <pikhq> Yes, but it'd still involve adding things to my Compose settings.
01:24:17 <pikhq> Besides which, it's a crapshoot what the combining chars render as...
01:24:52 <alise_> pikhq: ~/.themes/GreyMist/gtk-2.0/gtkrc: http://pastie.org/1125134.txt?key=znunu4lxosrtikj6nmyu3a
01:25:03 <alise_> gtk-theme-name="GreyMist"
01:25:03 <alise_> include "/home/ehird/.themes/GreyMist/gtk-2.0/gtkrc"
01:25:07 <alise_> the first line is important
01:25:11 <alise_> some stuff e.g. Qt's GTK engine breaks without it
01:25:20 <alise_> erm, s/ehird/pikhq/, of course
01:27:31 <coppro> having to work with root = :( :( :( :( :(
01:28:02 <alise_> coppro: yeah he was the worst agora player EVER
01:28:26 <pikhq> alise_: Take THAT, color!
01:28:38 <alise_> pikhq: MONOCHROME IS KING
01:28:54 <alise_> pikhq: you have to use a tiling WM, so that no background COLOUR can get through
01:30:05 <pikhq> alise_: Alas, I am not currently using a tiling WM.
01:32:09 <pikhq> alise_: However, the desktop is solid black.
01:32:21 <alise_> pikhq: I suggest #555.
01:32:35 <alise_> #000 sucks when you have windows with white-backgrounded webpages, etc.
01:32:49 <pikhq> Okay, that's a fair point.
01:33:04 <coppro> I mean accidentally deleting an important .git and trying to get it back means working as root. And it's bad
01:33:34 <alise_> #555 background + GreyMist + pekwm with my "bland" theme (imagine GreyMist, but in a window manager theme) was my setup very recently.
01:34:30 <pikhq> alise_: Because dammit, UIs shouldn't be flashy. :)
01:34:56 <alise_> pikhq: Having said that, I'm currently using GNOME out of sheer laziness.
01:35:23 <coppro> flashy = bad. Good-looking = good
01:37:09 <pikhq> I don't even want there to be a look to it. There shall be: content.
01:37:16 <alise_> KDE SC 4 does not look good.
01:37:32 <pikhq> If there's enough room on screen for extraneous elements to look good, then *there's too much wasted space*.
01:37:35 <alise_> coppro: There is no such thing as "KDE 4".
01:37:45 <alise_> It is "the KDE Software Collection 4", as of a view versions ago.
01:37:50 <alise_> Abbreviated, KDE SC 4.
01:38:02 <coppro> and yes, it does look good
01:38:20 <pikhq> It's a pity that Midori tends to crash, otherwise I'd be using that instead of Chrome.
01:39:13 <alise_> pikhq: If you don't mind a few GNOME libraries, Epiphany is decent enough.
01:39:24 <alise_> Although it fails at font sizes a bit.
01:39:34 <alise_> (it respects GNOME's default font size settings, which makes everything too small)
01:39:42 <alise_> (can be partially rectified with a user style sheet, but for some reason this doesn't help Wikipedia)
01:42:38 <coppro> can someone tell me the average number of block groups on an ext3 system?
01:46:29 <coppro> I may be here for a while :(
01:46:37 <alise_> why not just use the ext3grep tools?
01:46:43 <coppro> alise_: that's what I'm doing
01:46:44 <alise_> or whatever they're called
01:46:52 <coppro> at group 357 and counting
01:46:55 <alise_> 312 was an asspull btw
01:47:03 <alise_> coppro: you're not using that disk right now, yeah?
01:47:06 <alise_> mount it read only immediately
01:47:09 <coppro> alise_: it's mounted ro
01:47:17 <alise_> coppro: i'd just unmount it
01:47:21 <alise_> you don't need it mounted at all
01:47:31 <coppro> I needed to access a few files
01:47:36 <coppro> such as the network key
01:48:18 <coppro> just for safety, I also chmoded a-r on the device
01:51:07 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Reboot).
01:52:15 <coppro> that .git was mirrored on githup
01:53:07 -!- calamari has joined.
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01:57:24 -!- oerjan has joined.
02:08:05 <coppro> it may not be up-to-date though :/
02:32:11 <alise_> coppro: you ever played Rogue?
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02:38:29 <pikhq> Next person to make a tarbomb gets MURDERED
02:38:43 <pikhq> I repeat, MURDERED
02:39:07 <alise_> coppro: tar that extracts into current directory instead of subdirectory
02:41:46 <pikhq> Also: why do many webcomics have feeds containing just "new comic posted"?
02:42:41 <pikhq> "We hear that RSS is awesome, but we'd rather not make it useful."
02:43:00 <coppro> that reminds me; I need a good feed aggregator
02:43:31 * coppro is now just letting ext3grep run in hopes of discovering how many groups there are
02:44:02 <lifthrasiir> is a git repository with a directory named .git which is identical to itself possible?
02:45:31 <pikhq> Just... Why would I possibly want to follow a feed that's basically nothing more than "I posted a new comic today, like I do regularly!"
02:47:23 <alise_> lifthrasiir: with manual tweaking, maybe
02:47:30 <alise_> if it stores compressed
02:47:53 <alise_> "Save file (/home/ehird/rogue.save)? "
02:47:56 <alise_> WHY DO YOU HAVE THAT FEATURE ROGUE
02:48:03 <alise_> YOU DEFY MY ATTEMPTS TO CREATE A SERVER FOR YOU
02:54:56 <oerjan> deftly defiant defaults
03:13:09 <alise_> anyone want to watch me play rogue?
03:14:57 <alise_> coppro: nos are implicit
03:15:10 <alise_> i guess nethack is more exciting :)
03:26:06 <alise_> Sgeo: pikhq: broadcasting on `telnet termcast.org`, fwiw.
03:28:59 <pikhq> WHY DO SITES MAKE RSS FEEDS WITHOUT THE CONTENT IN THEM
03:29:10 <pikhq> YOUR SITE DESIGN SUCKS AND IT SHOULD DIE
03:29:19 <pikhq> GIVE ME THE TEXT AND IMAGES AND NOTHING ELSE DAMMIT
03:29:24 <alise_> pikhq: WATCH ME PLAY ROGUE TO EASE YOUR SOUL
03:29:28 <alise_> THE FIRST ROGUELIKE! BY DEFINITION!
03:29:37 <alise_> Sgeo: I'm playing Rogue Itself.
03:30:53 <Sgeo> My dad was annoying
03:31:16 <alise_> BUT HE DOES NOT PLAY ROGUE
03:31:41 <Sgeo> Forced to go to a concert. I had a headache. Told dad. He said wanted to stay to the end of the concert
03:31:55 <alise_> Rogue can cure headaches.
03:32:01 <alise_> It has slime-molds (with the hyphen).
03:32:45 <Sgeo> I think I like Forth
03:33:08 <Sgeo> After I prepare my pasta
03:33:21 <Sgeo> : SAYHI (crud, I forgot what's next)
03:33:27 <pikhq> http://www.terminally-incoherent.com/blog/2006/01/27/screen-scraping-for-rss/ Perfect.
03:34:15 <alise_> pikhq: the best rss client is a good email client, btw
03:34:20 <alise_> unfortunately, the latter does not exist
03:34:29 <alise_> http://www.allthingsrss.com/rss2email/
03:36:12 <Sgeo> : DOSPACES 42 SPACES ;
03:36:48 <alise_> Sgeo: WAATCH ME PLAY ROOOGUE
03:37:56 <Sgeo> alise_, soonish
03:38:06 <alise_> anyone played Angband or ADOM?
03:39:40 <Sgeo> I'm not _quite_ sure I get @
03:39:45 <Sgeo> Is that like dereference?
03:40:01 <alise_> Sgeo: @ reads one word from the memory address on the top of the stack
03:40:14 <alise_> that is, "n @" is C *(int *)n
03:40:54 <Sgeo> And ! is (val addr --)? Like putting val in *addr?
03:41:36 <Sgeo> I love how comments are defined by Forth code
03:42:06 <alise_> Sgeo: "VARIABLE foo" allocates one word of memory, and then defines the word foo to push that memory location on the stack
03:42:11 <alise_> e.g. : foo 38453 ; or whatever
03:42:24 <Sgeo> ALLOC is like malloc?
03:42:32 <alise_> i dunno about ALLOC, it's probably some jonesforth-internal thing
03:42:40 <alise_> but yeah, it's basically retarded-ish malloc
03:42:44 <alise_> Sgeo: this is simpler on the direct hardware of course
03:42:50 -!- Gregor-L has changed nick to Gregor.
03:44:12 <Sgeo> Does it ever make sense to have ] without COMPILE?
03:44:16 <Sgeo> Or whatver the word is?
03:44:49 <Sgeo> Maybe, for example, allocating what might in another language be a variable shared between invocations of a function?
03:45:00 <alise_> Sgeo: ] does what it does, it's useful for exactly what it does
03:45:05 <alise_> forth doesn't have this uptight notion of best practices
03:45:11 <alise_> use a word if it does what you want to do
03:46:33 <alise_> Sgeo: now connect to rogue dammit
03:47:54 <Sgeo> alise_, can you detect when I connect?
03:48:56 * Sgeo isn't watching closely, need to go make pasta
03:49:33 <Sgeo> Is your terminal being weird?
03:49:53 <Sgeo> How many @ do you see on your screen?
03:49:57 <alise_> whoa, wtf has happened
03:50:08 <Sgeo> What was the problem?
03:50:14 <Sgeo> NOw there's 3!
03:50:38 <alise_> Sgeo: i have no idea what's going on
03:50:52 <Sgeo> Headache just got worse
03:56:10 <Sgeo> Tell me when Rogue cures headaches
03:57:47 <Sgeo> It just happened to die in such a way as a NH person can confuse that with leaving a corpse
03:59:19 <Sgeo> Is there hunger in Rogue?
03:59:39 <alise_> Sgeo: Snakes, by the way, are the deadliest enemy early game.
03:59:45 <alise_> And they never give up following.
04:00:05 <Sgeo> It had to be snakes
04:00:15 <alise_> Sgeo: This is what we call "fucked".
04:00:31 <Sgeo> There was another1
04:00:48 <Sgeo> You can't walk diagonally?
04:01:56 <alise_> Sgeo: not in corridors
04:02:56 <alise_> Sgeo: And so we start again.
04:03:07 <alise_> tl;dr Seriously, fuck snakes.
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04:03:55 <alise_> Sgeo: Also, bats are missfests.
04:05:34 <alise_> Sgeo: What we are learning here is that Rogue early game SUCKS ASS.
04:05:47 <alise_> Sgeo: Oh, and since there's no colour, identification is so much easier.
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04:08:56 <Sgeo> 'WORD word FIND ?HIDDEN' returns true if 'word' is flagged as hidden.
04:09:04 <Sgeo> How can you find it if it's hidden
04:09:10 <Sgeo> Or is 'WORD something else?
04:09:30 <alise_> Sgeo: I think hidden means not considered a definition of a word. I dunno.
04:10:43 <Sgeo> There's no generally agreed syntax for CASE...ENDCASE?
04:11:07 <alise_> Sgeo: don't worry about standards atm :P
04:12:05 <Sgeo> I don't like how in Jonesforth, IF doesn't work in immediate mode
04:13:45 <alise_> Sgeo: oh yeah, monster difficulty seems to vary wildly
04:14:30 <Sgeo> I forgot what LIT does, although it's important
04:14:41 <alise_> {LIT, 3} pushes 3 on the stack
04:14:46 <alise_> because 3 obviously isn't a pointer to a valid word
04:17:08 <Sgeo> What does food look like?
04:17:24 <alise_> i) A scroll titled 'marodjo klier glen muresh'
04:17:48 <alise_> "Some food" -- food rations in the inventory XD
04:17:51 <Sgeo> : means something different in each roguelike
04:19:48 * Sgeo wonders if his AW computer should just be a Forth machine
04:19:51 <alise_> Sgeo: With nothing in!
04:21:05 <alise_> You feel a bite in your leg and now feel weaker
04:22:10 <alise_> Sgeo: If I hit that ice monster, I will probably die.
04:25:22 <alise_> Sgeo: as far as i can tell, searching only does things in corridors, never discovers doors
04:26:05 <Sgeo> Are there secret doors?
04:27:23 <alise_> Sgeo: Quaff random potions, read random scrolls, run away.
04:28:05 <alise_> Or, attack with other weapons?
04:28:06 <Sgeo> 0 VALUE AVALUE
04:29:46 <alise_> Sgeo: no seriously i'm at 5hp need halp :P
04:30:28 <Sgeo> 0 VALUE TIMESSGEOPLAYEDROGUE
04:31:53 <alise_> Sgeo: it's just like nethack
04:32:02 <alise_> 5hp, enemy, quaff random potion, read random scroll, or run away?
04:32:10 <alise_> Not "run away", is the answer.
04:33:43 <alise_> Sgeo: This is not my game.
04:35:25 <Sgeo> Be a Troll Berserker in Crawl
04:37:40 <Sgeo> It's easy! (early-game)
04:38:13 <Sgeo> And very not-boring
04:38:31 <Sgeo> I got bored with Merfolk Ice Elementalist
04:38:40 <Sgeo> Almost gave up on roguelikes
04:39:28 <oerjan> Merfolk Ice Environmentalists worry about global warming ruining their arctic homeland
04:39:43 <alise_> Lesson learned: HOBGOBLINS ARE FUCKING WHAT
04:39:58 <oerjan> alise_: everything that moves?
04:40:20 <alise_> Yes. But also death itself.
04:42:57 <Sgeo> Write a roguelike OS in Forth
04:44:07 <alise_> Sgeo: Fun fact: The point system is based entirely on your gold.
04:44:13 <alise_> 10% is deducted from dying (rather than just quitting)
04:44:20 <ais523> wouldn't a roguelike OS have a random set of commands every time you ran it?
04:44:27 <ais523> and an experience-points-based filesystem?
04:44:51 <Sgeo> When you die, everything gets deleted, obviously
04:46:29 <Sgeo> ( addr u fam -- fd 0 (if successful) | c-addr u fam -- fd errno (if there was an error) )
04:46:43 <Sgeo> Is that saying that the input changes based on whether or not there was an error?
04:48:02 <alise_> Sgeo: no, the output changes, presumably
04:48:08 <alise_> doesn't look like jonesforth
04:48:22 <Sgeo> http://www.annexia.org/_file/jonesforth.f.txt
04:48:35 <alise_> he probably changed addr -> c-addr at some point
04:48:38 <alise_> and forgot to change both
04:49:36 <alise_> ais523: "You don't hit my snake" -- please put this in AceHack as one of the possible missing messages
04:49:41 <alise_> ais523: "You don't hit the snake" -- please put this in AceHack as one of the possible missing messages
04:49:50 <alise_> it's my favourite action feedback, ever
04:49:55 <ais523> specifically for snakes?
04:50:00 <alise_> ais523: for everything
04:50:11 <alise_> I'm half-expecting the next message to be "You don't teleport to the bottom level of the dungeon"
04:50:17 <Sgeo> You don't hit the alise.
04:50:22 <alise_> "You don't detonate a bomb, causing everything in the nearby region to be destroyed"
04:50:25 <ais523> perhaps as a hallu message
04:50:31 <alise_> ais523: (it's from Rogue)
04:51:55 <alise_> Sgeo: wat @ these corridors
04:52:12 <Sgeo> Obviously it's some sort of code
04:52:21 <alise_> ais523: imgur.com/XQTjp.png does this ever happen in nethack?
04:52:30 <alise_> since you're modifying the code
04:52:34 <Sgeo> There are mazelike levels
04:52:36 <alise_> just wondering if there's a generate_wtf_corridors() function
04:52:38 <Sgeo> Too many of them
04:52:42 <Sgeo> But they don't look like that
04:54:32 <Sgeo> S" TEST-MODE" FIND NOT IF
04:54:41 <Sgeo> WORD TEST-MODE FIND NOT IF ?
04:55:03 <Sgeo> Oh, because strings have a different structure? But doesn't FIND usually expect the stucture of words, not strings?
04:55:13 <alise_> Sgeo: ' FOO would give a pointer to the word
04:55:17 <alise_> presumably that does some dictionary searching
04:55:19 <alise_> which would be by string
04:56:21 <ais523> alise_: I don't think so
04:56:58 <Sgeo> What's colorForth, and is it good or evil?
04:57:15 <alise_> Sgeo: Chuck Moore's latest project.
04:57:18 <alise_> Chuck Moore invented Forth.
04:57:25 <alise_> It's, uh, Forth where instead of : and ; and the like, you have colours.
04:57:31 <alise_> Interesting ... but ... you don't want to use it.
04:57:57 <alise_> Sgeo: Here's an IDE driver in ColorForth: http://www.colorforth.com/ide.html
04:58:10 <alise_> It's only available as an x86 operating system which uses a 27-key Dvorak keyboard.
04:58:15 <alise_> So, yeah: you don't want to use it.
04:58:32 <alise_> http://www.colorforth.com/cf.png screenshot
04:58:41 <alise_> "Source code is organized in 256-word blocks."
04:58:47 <Sgeo> I _have_ to use Dvorak?
04:59:19 <alise_> He's Chuck Moore. He's old and he can do what the fuck he likes.
04:59:56 <alise_> criticising it is like criticising Knuth for doing something insane
04:59:59 <alise_> he's allowed to, dammit
05:00:16 <alise_> Sgeo: HOLY FUCKING WHAT
05:00:39 <alise_> Sgeo: you didn't see the ROOM OF UNHOLY FUCKING MONSTERS?
05:00:47 <alise_> There, now you can see them.
05:00:52 <Sgeo> Just missing a T
05:01:53 <alise_> ais523: ok, I will never complain about Roguelike early game ever again
05:02:00 <alise_> ais523: Rogue's early game is utterly impossible
05:02:16 <alise_> The most I've reached is level 4, and that was a miracle. Getting to level 2 can be a challenge.
05:02:58 <Sgeo> alise_, good luck with a Demigod Chaos Knight
05:03:07 <Sgeo> (Note: That's actually physically impossible)
05:03:19 <alise_> Sgeo: Spoken like someone who's never played Rogue.
05:03:25 <alise_> No character classes. Only one: Suck.
05:03:52 <Sgeo> Chaos Knights start out worshipping one of three gods
05:03:57 <Sgeo> Demigods cannot worship any god
05:04:28 <alise_> ais523: you should have a go at Rogue sometime, it's harder than NetHack!
05:04:34 <alise_> don't need any spoilers though :P
05:05:26 <alise_> also, the Rogue RNG is provably evil
05:06:02 <alise_> http://imgur.com/mxB0Z.png
05:06:06 <alise_> I call this piece "Dungeon Level 1".
05:06:45 <Sgeo> It's almost saying the role you should play in Crawl!
05:07:08 <ais523> alise_: Rogue is often uncompletable by pure chance
05:07:27 <ais523> due to there not being enough food in the game to make it possible to complete without starving
05:07:33 <alise_> ais523: the varied monster strength is weird
05:07:49 <alise_> ais523: like, a kestrel can get you down to 1hp one turn, then be defeated in two turns another
05:08:52 <Sgeo> There are professional Forth programmers?!
05:09:03 <alise_> Sgeo: Dude, it's heavily used in the embedded industry.
05:09:11 <ais523> alise_: Crawl does that, I hate it for that
05:09:15 <alise_> You have probably relied on Forth at some point in your life and not realised it.
05:09:23 <ais523> there are monsters with superattacks that can oneshot you but normally don't use them...
05:09:32 <alise_> ais523: is it even possible to get to level 4 on dlvl1 in NetHack without extreme RNG hate?
05:10:09 * alise_ wonders if Rogue has a concept of weight
05:10:29 <Sgeo> Will there ever be a point where embedded systems don't need to rely on Forth?
05:10:37 <ais523> alise_: yes, especially if you're playing tourist
05:10:53 <ais523> it's been known to set up pudding farms on dlvl 1
05:11:01 <Sgeo> I've heard that Tourists are hard until the quest
05:11:33 <alise_> Sgeo: many embedded systems don't rely on forth
05:11:52 <Sgeo> Then what do they use?
05:11:59 <alise_> i) cph (idle 00:16:03, connected 00:16:45, 0 viewers, 7195 bytes)
05:12:00 <alise_> j) cph (idle 00:08:18, connected 00:08:33, 0 viewers, 3190 bytes)
05:12:00 <alise_> k) cph (idle 00:00:00, connected 00:06:00, 0 viewers, 37989 bytes)
05:12:04 <alise_> ^ the guy is playing three nethack games at once
05:13:38 <Sgeo> I think the AW computer will be a stack machine
05:14:03 <Sgeo> How easy/painful is it to make a stack machine without ICs?
05:14:27 <Sgeo> Relative to a more standard type of machine
05:14:31 <alise_> ais523: are ice monsters /meant/ to kill you in one hit?
05:14:35 <alise_> maybe i just got unlucky
05:14:38 <alise_> i dunno if nethack has them
05:15:00 <alise_> Sgeo: horrible, like all such endeavours
05:15:11 <ais523> alise_: Crawl has them, and they're scary there
05:15:22 <alise_> last time i hit one in rogue, i died. like that, instantly
05:15:25 <alise_> i hit it, gravestone came up
05:15:28 <ais523> Sgeo: you mean, out of discrete transisters?
05:15:29 <Sgeo> Ice monsters v Antaeus!
05:15:30 <alise_> they don't move though
05:15:38 <Sgeo> ais523, well, something like transistors
05:15:43 <alise_> ais523: no, out of AWistors, which are like transistors, but broken in a lovely activeworlds way
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05:18:52 <ais523> oh, esoteric building blocks?
05:21:36 <Sgeo> alise_, run a FORTH server!
05:21:43 <alise_> ais523: are two-handed swords better than maces? i forget
05:21:48 <alise_> presumably what applies in nethack applies in rogue
05:21:52 * alise_ stops bugging ais523 about nethack things
05:23:01 <alise_> Sgeo: that's enough for today :P
05:23:07 <ais523> alise_: in NetHack, yes but they use up both hands
05:23:13 <ais523> in most roguelikes, maces are rather rubbish
05:23:30 <alise_> ais523: i don't think you have hands in rogue
05:25:02 <ais523> two-handed weapon + shield = bad in most games
05:26:04 <alise_> but i also think rogue is far too simple to think about stuff like that
05:26:13 <alise_> after all, it was the very first roguelike
05:26:16 <alise_> and combat isn't exactly varied
05:26:30 <Sgeo> Not [ ] COMPILE
05:26:46 <Sgeo> alise_, an earlier question was wrong
05:27:07 <alise_> question? in jonesforth?
05:27:47 <Sgeo> I asked something or other about ] COMPILE
05:27:51 <Sgeo> When I meant ] LITERAL
05:27:54 <Sgeo> according to wikipedia
05:30:38 <alise_> http://www.qwantz.com/index.php
05:30:48 <alise_> HOW TO BLUFF YOUR WAY THROUGH EVERY CONVERSATION ABOUT WHICH PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE IS BEST
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05:34:08 <Sgeo> Rails is not a language!
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06:55:21 <Sgeo> I can't read just one tutorial to learn something
06:55:25 <Sgeo> I always like reading several
06:55:47 <Sgeo> I start on my second (third if you count unhelpful Wikipedia) tutorial, with much knowledge gleaned from the first
07:05:29 <Sgeo> MS Security Essentials thought a part of Win32Forth was a worm
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07:20:25 * coppro still needs a feed aggregator!
07:22:22 <ais523> Sgeo: probably because of self-modifying code
07:22:38 <Sgeo> Win32Forth does not like multiline comments in the REPL
07:23:18 <coppro> Akgregator has the advantage of already being on my computer
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07:32:52 <coppro> okay, I like Akregator
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07:36:38 <Sgeo> "With the need to encode
07:36:38 <Sgeo> alphabets other than the Latin one (e.g. Chinese, Arabic, Hebrew, Cyrillic) a
07:36:38 <Sgeo> two-byte encoding called Unicode has been adopted, which allows for 65535
07:36:38 <Sgeo> distinct characters.
07:41:43 <coppro> what language is this?
07:44:31 <Sgeo> http://galileo.phys.virginia.edu/classes/551.jvn.fall01/primer.htm#strings
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07:46:04 <Sgeo> I need to sleep VERY soon
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07:54:07 <Sgeo> I need to slepe
07:54:21 <Sgeo> First, finding out what time I need to take the bus
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08:04:10 <Sgeo> I'll try to be there at 8, I guess
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08:39:21 <coppro> is [ a valid brainfuck program?
08:40:14 <wareya> I don't think you can have a closing bracket withotu an opening
08:40:58 <coppro> ] on a zero cell is a noop though
08:41:10 <coppro> so ], if allowed, would execute successfully
08:41:36 <wareya> I don't think that it's defined...
08:42:16 <coppro> yes, ] is "if cell is 0, noop, else go back to prior matched ["
08:42:29 <wareya> It's defined exactly like that?
08:43:10 <wareya> In that case. "]" is valid.
08:43:33 <wareya> ut I feel like it would end up being implementatino defined.
08:43:44 <coppro> Wikipedia describes it as "if the byte at the data pointer is nonzero, then instead of moving the instruction pointer forward to the next command, jump it back to the command after the matching [ command*."
08:44:11 <wareya> I'm sorry, I have my hands full so I can't type well right now.
08:44:38 * coppro wants to write a BF compiler in sed
09:30:52 <fizzie> Most (well, at least some) implementations I've ran into don't allow ], since it doesn't have a prior matched [ to jump to, even if on runtime it wouldn't actually execute.
09:31:18 <fizzie> It's a bit like "if (0) goto non_existing_label;" which I would think would also be invalid C.
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10:03:00 <cheater> so what's the shortest terminating b****fuck program?
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10:22:18 <ais523> second-shortest is any single command but a loop
10:22:33 <ais523> although arguably , isn't guaranteed to terminate, if you never get any input
10:22:49 <ais523> shortest infinite loop is of course +[] (or -[] in a wrapping interp or one that allows negative numbers)
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10:38:25 <olsner> second largest would be any program with exactly one character :P
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11:53:47 <Sgeo> http://snyfarvc.cc.farmingdale.edu/av/
11:53:58 <Sgeo> Dear Farmingdale IT Department: Fuck you with a rusty knife
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13:02:16 <cheater> Sgeo: what Window versions do you have?
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14:09:06 <cheater> nein man, ich will noch nicht gehen
14:22:13 <Vorpal> yay I'm on native ipv6. Well not to IRC but ssh tunnel over native ipv6 to ipv6 tunnel at home
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14:36:56 <cheater> and it's equally terrible as normal cola
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15:03:47 <alise> I wonder if I should just make a DE-style suite of programs that don't have stupid dependencies...
15:04:12 <alise> So I can live up to pikhq's UI ideal without configuring everything :P
15:06:02 <Vorpal> alise, I'm on native ipv6 atm
15:10:46 <pikhq> The ideal is, of course, "I don't *want* the looks to impress me. I want it to work!"
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15:16:25 <alise> pikhq: I'm thinkin' "laid out according to typographical principles, lots of keyboard use, and no UI clutter".
15:16:45 <alise> Also, as a general rule, "use reasonable shit instead of inventing ridiculous settings daemons or depending on other such daemons".
15:17:11 <alise> Oh, and "how about a file manager that has a built in terminal that interacts with the directory listing"?
15:21:37 <alise> Perhaps even "an {IM,IRC} client that doesn't suck" would be nice, if such a thing is even possible.
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15:32:30 <alise> pikhq: Why did you stop using a tiling WM, btw?
15:32:37 <alise> I guess ratpoison isn't very tiling, actually.
15:33:11 <pikhq> alise: Some programs interact very poorly with not-reparenting WMs.
15:33:17 <pikhq> Among them, anything in WINE.
15:33:32 <alise> Programs ... want ... to be reparented?
15:33:59 <pikhq> Windows programs make really stupid assumptions.
15:34:43 <alise> pikhq: Why are you using WINE for actual-applications, anyway?
15:35:23 <pikhq> alise: I'm too lazy to write a ROM manager for Linux.
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15:35:37 <pikhq> Also, Valve games.
15:35:43 <alise> pikhq: ROM manager -- you mean a filesystem? :P
15:35:50 <alise> Okay, okay, yeah, yeah, I know.
15:36:05 <alise> Valve games want to be reparented?
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15:37:04 <pikhq> Oh, and this isn't relevant *now*, but it was a while back: VMWare *crashes* unless it gets reparented.
15:37:11 <Sgeo_> My school is creepy
15:37:17 <alise> Oh yeah, Steam, the "let's create our own start menu" application.
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15:40:47 <alise> pikhq: Absolutely requires VMWare as opposed to some other VM?
15:41:28 * alise has finally adjusted to freetype with hinting turned off.
15:41:44 <pikhq> alise: Did. I am not currently employed.
15:41:54 <alise> Only with subpixel rendering, though; you really need that 3x horizontal resolution to get the clarity...
15:42:04 <alise> pikhq: Did they just give you VMWare images or something? o_O
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15:42:39 <pikhq> alise: Actually, I was to create some... And then automate VMware.
15:43:02 <pikhq> FTR, I hate VMware.
15:44:39 <alise> What irritates me is that even the "alternative" DEs, like XFCE and LXDE, still follow the exact same UI paradigms as GNOME and KDE.
15:44:59 <alise> It's not like I want a huge revolution in UI design -- I do, but not on /Linux and X11/ -- I just want something that sucks a teeny weeny bit less.
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15:51:18 <alise> Oumpeá äx’ääļuktëx.
15:52:39 <alise> We trust you have received the usual lecture from the local System
15:52:40 <alise> Administrator. It usually boils down to these three things:
15:52:40 <alise> #1) Respect the privacy of others.
15:52:40 <alise> #2) Think before you type.
15:52:40 <alise> #3) With great power comes great responsibility.
15:59:12 <cpressey> Hey, that's like a violation of one of the laws of sane computing, or something
15:59:40 <alise> cpressey: what is?
16:02:37 <Sgeo__> Whee, I'm in Perl class
16:03:08 <alise> Sgeo__: It will teach Perl practices that were considered good around the time of Perl 4, and neglect every modern feature that has made Perl a decent language.
16:03:13 <alise> It will be a horrific abuse of all your principles.
16:03:25 <alise> Please do not treat it as what the Perl community would actually teach themselves.
16:03:44 <alise> Title it "Smalltalk, taught by 12-year-old Java hax0rs" in your mind.
16:05:50 <Sgeo__> Well, at least the syllibus isn't a .doc
16:06:13 <Sgeo__> Although Foxit's plugin thing is terminally broken
16:11:51 <alise> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3oYVV5v51s Windows 95 on a Mac: It makes your monitor float.
16:12:45 <Sgeo__> Someone's about to download Adobe Reader
16:13:11 <Sgeo__> I tried to show them the page, and what you said
16:14:05 <alise> "Leo purred" -- Mac OS 8.1 trying to pronounce "leopard"
16:14:25 <Sgeo__> Yes, I showed em my IRC window and had "and use Sumatra" selected
16:14:57 <alise> Sumatra is a PDF reader. :P
16:15:11 <alise> Sheesh, I'm being exposed to the masses!
16:15:24 <alise> I can fix that! Fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck
16:15:51 <alise> Mac OS 8: RIP Chicago
16:16:58 <alise> Mac OS 8: RIP not having options in the Finder
16:23:18 <fizzie> I use a non-reparenting thing, and haven't really had WINE problems; though only thing I run with WINE is Spotify.
16:23:33 <fizzie> MATLAB is more problematic, though.
16:24:01 <alise> "This page is served from my souped-up Apple Macintosh IIci (littledork) running NetBSD and Apache"
16:24:09 <Sgeo__> I'm starting to like this professor
16:24:30 <Sgeo__> She's talking about mailing lists, and how people should try solving their own problems first
16:24:45 <alise> She /might/ teach Perl well. But almost certainly not.
16:27:06 <alise> if someone makes an interpreter for Bit-C they can name it as a homage to Ch, a C interpreter
16:27:10 <fizzie> And anything with Java needs a setwmname LG3D trick.
16:27:32 * alise wonders what WM LG3D was originally
16:28:31 <Sgeo__> "Qualities of a good programmer:"
16:28:34 <alise> fizzie: have you got a MacII????
16:28:47 <alise> Sgeo__: that's a larry wall quote
16:29:03 <alise> she might just know Perl. Impressive.
16:31:42 <fizzie> No; I don't have any 68k things.
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16:31:53 <alise> fizzie: Oh. I was going to demand you mail it to me.
16:31:57 <alise> You know, in an envelope.
16:32:18 <alise> fizzie: PPC stuff is just so /boring/, though.
16:32:26 <alise> Running Linux on PPC. Oh, you ARE revolutionary!
16:33:02 <alise> System 6/7 dual-booted with NetBSD? Yes!
16:33:12 <alise> (II since it's the first model supported by NetBSD/mac68k.)
16:34:33 * Sgeo__ blehs at someone playing some 3d game in front of him
16:35:22 <alise> OMG I JUST HAD THE BEST IDEA
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16:35:28 <alise> NETBSD ON AN APPLE LISA
16:35:34 <alise> I MEAN YES, OR YES?
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16:41:28 <Sgeo__> She's rightfully assuming that the students are imbicils
16:41:34 <Sgeo__> Yes, I know I misspelled that
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16:44:44 <Sgeo__> Ok, I like this professor
16:47:27 <alise> -_- @ people selling UPGRADED MacIIs
16:48:54 <alise> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Apple-Mac-Macintosh-LC-II-1992-/110578144146?pt=UK_VintageComputing_RL Expensive, no monitor/keyboard/mouse, system is in German. Sigh.
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16:55:59 <alise> is there a program that enumerates all functions (with pattern-matching, say) of N arguments of M size each?
16:56:15 <alise> e.g. saying "3 arguments of size 2" would produce all 3-adic boolean functions
16:56:45 <Sgeo__> Wouldn't the potential existence of such a function depend on language, or are you talking in an abstract sense, with countably infinite results?
16:57:17 <alise> I meant a finite output, of course.
16:57:20 <cpressey> Only if N*M is countably infinite?
16:57:28 <alise> As such, the number of functions is always finite.
16:57:32 <Sgeo__> size 2 sounds ill-defined
16:57:33 <cpressey> Er, there should be a ^ in there somewhere
16:57:38 <alise> Sgeo__: no it is not
16:57:48 <alise> it is a set with two distinct elements
16:57:50 <alise> that is, the booleans
16:57:54 <alise> called "2" in set theory
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16:58:35 <alise> For instance, 2^(2^3) = 256, so the set of functions from three booleans to a boolean has 256 elements.
16:58:37 <cpressey> alise: sudo should not be MORALIZING at me goddammit.
16:58:43 <alise> So there are 256 functions from three booleans to a boolean.
16:59:21 <alise> Sgeo__: Consider that there are obviously 8 triples of three booleans.
16:59:25 <alise> So, each function has 8 possible inputs.
16:59:46 <alise> Order them: (f,f,f), (f,f,t), (f,t,f), (f,t,t), (t,f,f), (t,f,t), (t,t,f), (t,t,t) (like binary counting).
16:59:58 <alise> Now consider an 8-bit binary number; 01010101.
17:00:06 <alise> To get the result for a given tuple, look at its position in the ordering.
17:00:10 <alise> Then look at the digit in the binary number.
17:00:14 <alise> If it's 1, the output is true.
17:00:17 <alise> If it's 0, the output is false.
17:00:22 <alise> Now enumerate all 8-bit binary functions.
17:00:23 <Sgeo__> Maybe I should sit closer to the professor
17:00:29 <Sgeo__> At least until my ears stop acting up
17:00:34 <cpressey> alise: What you describe sounds trivial
17:00:39 <alise> cpressey: Of course it is.
17:00:51 <alise> cpressey: I just want something that does that and outputs it in some sort of pattern-matching format.
17:00:53 <alise> Just for convenience.
17:01:21 <alise> cpressey: Well, if it could simplify to a set of base functions that'd be cool too. :)
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17:08:55 <alise> cpressey: "The Commodore Amiga's graphics chipset could combine three bitmaps according to any of 256 logic functions of three variables." inspired this btw
17:09:11 <alise> I wonder if there's an efficient way in machine code to take a byte and three booleans and perform the respective function
17:09:13 <alise> without hardcoding them all
17:10:19 <alise> well if you can switch on the contents of the triple, then it's a matter of bit extraction. of course, bit extraction is horrendously slow
17:10:28 <alise> although, actually
17:10:35 <alise> it's just a matter of a right shift and a & 1
17:10:49 <alise> if we order it so that the rightmost bit is for FFF
17:10:55 <alise> then if we have FFT
17:11:02 <alise> then if we have FTF
17:11:20 <alise> cpressey: although i'm sure there's a more efficient way
17:15:12 <cpressey> alise: That could work. I was thinking something about XOR. Anyway not able to think clearly about it right now. But that capability might explain why there were full-screen implementations of Conway's LIFE for the Amiga that were blazing fast, and where the source code was just a bunch of obscure blitter calls...
17:15:34 <alise> I think it clearly does.
17:15:39 <alise> Hmm, XOR might work...
17:15:42 <alise> This is interesting.
17:16:29 <alise> cpressey: Of course, it has to be bitwise.
17:16:31 <alise> So disregard what I said.
17:20:52 <cpressey> A co-worker just praised Python's GC for being "so smart" in his internal blog.
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17:21:24 <alise> With a cycle collector!
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17:23:18 <Vorpal> alise, I'm here atm, I have a timeframe for starting hypothetical activity of about 1 hour, then will be away partly
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17:36:23 <cpressey> alise: He's a very good developer overall, but I there are a lot of things about him that I'll never understand.
18:01:31 <cpressey> alise: Is David Attenborough one of your National Treasures?
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18:43:44 <Phantom_Hoover> I was thinking about Life, and CAs in general, and I wondered if you could have some kind of actual "resource management".
18:44:13 <Phantom_Hoover> i.e. you can't make gliders without "refining" some kind of base structure, which is then destroyed and cannot be regenerated.
18:46:45 <alise> <cpressey> alise: Is David Attenborough one of your National Treasures? ;; You mean of this country?
18:47:27 <Phantom_Hoover> <cue that Street Fighter clip that must accompany those words>
18:49:26 <coppro> haha microsoft is using freetype
18:50:04 <alise> also, why on earth? even ClearType is better than unpatched freetype
18:50:18 <alise> and patched freetype is heavily patented, Microsoft wouldn't go near that; Apple would assrape them.
18:50:27 <alise> assuming subpixel rendering here
18:50:30 <alise> which I assume Microsoft will do
18:50:56 <alise> But OS X already has an excellent font rendering library.
18:51:03 <coppro> http://i35.tinypic.com/jazx2t.jpg
18:51:24 <alise> coppro: they just took some code, then
18:51:27 <alise> that font rendering is definitely native
18:51:29 <coppro> it's actually a good sign, though :)
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19:29:05 <alise> "The Washington Shakespeare Company (based in Arlington VA) will soon be performing selections from Hamlet and Much Ado About Nothing in Klingon."
19:29:11 <alise> Hamlet in Klingon. In real life.
19:33:13 <alise> *the original Klingon, mind
19:35:27 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, I just don't understand them.
19:36:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, the general idea is that to do things, you need to harvest other things.
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19:49:04 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: An elegeant way: ensure all transitions preserve the number of each kind of state (there's a name for this property but I forget it.) An ugly way: keep track of how many of each kind of state you have, and don't allow certain transitions if you don't have enough left. Makes Life, e.g., nondeterministic.
19:50:03 <alise> (it had to be done)
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19:53:39 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Less ugly in one sense but even uglier in another way: ... have certain patterns in the playfield count as "resource providers" and... uggh
19:54:10 <cpressey> Like building factories in a war sim.
19:55:12 * alise continues playing Rogue
19:55:16 <alise> The impossible game...
19:56:14 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: At least in the early game, hell yes.
19:56:22 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: `telnet termcast.org`, channel aliserogue, if you want to see me suffer.
19:56:32 <alise> I've just started a new game
19:57:07 <cpressey> The original Rogue? Yeah that's... almost no fun
19:57:13 <alise> script -f >((echo 'hello USERNAME PASSWORD'; cat) | nc noway.ratry.ru 31337 >/dev/null)
19:57:18 <alise> cpressey: Oh, it's fun, just horrific.
19:57:49 <cheater-> alise, how come you are home right now?
19:58:18 <alise> cheater-: pay more attention
19:58:28 <cheater-> alise: i was not at the computer for the last month or so
19:58:40 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I have actually easily reached Exp 4 on Level 1 in Rogue before.
19:58:45 <alise> cheater-: I'm out. "Sort of."
19:59:15 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Oh, and by the way, % are downstairs. : is food. Capital letters are monsters.
19:59:29 <alise> There are no upstairs until you get the Amulet; then, there are only upstairs (the same %s).
20:00:14 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Running away is a very viable option. Always.
20:00:51 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: "You don't hit the <enemy>" is my favourite miss message ever
20:01:29 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I believe the room I can't seem to get to is filled with monsters.
20:02:06 <alise> They just all flocked out.
20:02:09 <cheater-> alise: ???????????????????????????????????????
20:02:39 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Oh, and of course, monster difficulty is crazy variable.
20:02:55 <alise> Monsters can be a two-hit kill or a fifteen-hit death.
20:04:16 <alise> Ice monsters: just don't even go ther.
20:04:22 <alise> I think they kill you on the first hit, always.
20:05:24 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Stairs in single-file corridors? Whyever not?
20:06:48 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: "Yep, so here we'll just built a network of corridors that lead nowhere. Also, put some stairs in."
20:07:32 <alise> Oh yeah, and the game is often unwinnable by virtue of there not being enough food in the dungeon.
20:08:15 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I appear to be fucked.
20:08:32 <alise> Sweet, I fainted thrice in one turn.
20:10:48 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: That was a typical game, by the way.
20:10:52 <alise> Bash. It's default.
20:11:41 <nooga> alise killed by an emu
20:12:01 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Oh yeah, and your score is gold - 10% if you died rather than quitting.
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20:14:30 <zzo38> A program I might write some time later on is TeXnicard, which is a collection of programs that can be used instead of Magic Set Editor, because it has somewhat similar functions. But I have to learn how to write a DVI driver, if I am going to do that.
20:16:49 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Oh yeah, and when you use stairs they DISAPPEAR.
20:17:40 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: b before a in inventory? Why not?
20:17:59 <zzo38> It would consist of these programs, probably: "texnicard" (a set of macros for TeX), "symnicard" (a set of macros for METAFONT to create set symbols), "dvinicard" (a DVI driver that can produce JPG or PNG files, and other things), "picnicard" (a graphical user interface to import pictures and place boxes on the page), "webnicard" which takes text file input and then does preprocessing and chunk tangling and outputs multiple formats (TeX, METAF
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20:18:39 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: You now have --More--
20:19:35 <zzo38> In Rogue you only go downstairs, if you find stairs and try to go upstairs, you are blocked by magic
20:19:53 <alise> Aww, nobody is watching.
20:19:59 <alise> zzo38: you go upstairs after you get the Amulet
20:20:17 <zzo38> Yes, but before you get the Amulet, you are blocked by magic if you try to go upstairs
20:20:46 <alise> Any tips for making the game not impossible?
20:21:32 <zzo38> alise: Maybe modify it? I don't really know?
20:21:39 <zzo38> I think the game works.
20:22:31 <alise> Yes, but it's pain.
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20:29:17 <zzo38> alise: Then try one of my simple roguelike games, if you can run them in your computer (there is certainly a way, probably multiple ways, depending on operating system)
20:29:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to Vonlebio.
20:29:33 <alise> zzo38: I use Linux. Do they work in WINE?
20:29:46 * Vonlebio realises that he has forgotten any vaguely conversational Latin he knew
20:29:48 <zzo38> alise: They are DOS programs. Try WINE see if they work.
20:30:00 <zzo38> You might also get them to work in DOSBOX or FreeBASIC.
20:30:02 <alise> zzo38: Can you link me up?
20:30:26 <alise> Vonlebio: wait, that's latin?
20:30:33 * alise didn't even pay any attention
20:30:34 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/GAMES/100level.zip http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/GAMES/RL/KING.ZIP
20:30:56 <alise> zzo38: zipbomb or not?
20:31:06 <Vonlebio> Foreign and Latin go rather well together.
20:31:09 <zzo38> alise: Yes it is zipbomb
20:31:17 <zzo38> If the extension is ZIP, assume that it might be zipbomb.
20:31:46 <zzo38> If the extension is TAR, it should have its own directory structure built-in, so you don't need to create a directory structure yourself.
20:31:49 <alise> zzo38: Does it have built-in help?
20:32:00 <zzo38> For ZIP you should create directory structures yourself
20:32:04 <alise> cpressey: How did you think XOR might help evaluate the boolean functions?
20:32:19 <zzo38> alise: Yes, KING does, 100LEVEL has limited help (you are supposed to figure out things yourself more).
20:32:30 <zzo38> But KING game has more detailed instructions.
20:32:31 <alise> zzo38: All I want are the basic controls.
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20:33:23 <Vonlebio> sergio__, sprechen du Englisch?
20:33:31 <zzo38> KING has very few basic controls, found on the second page of the built-in instructions.
20:34:00 <alise> Vonlebio: We could try Pulp Fiction...
20:34:08 <alise> sergio__: ENGLISH, MOTHERFUCKER! DO YOU SPEAK IT?
20:34:15 <alise> ...but that might scare him away.
20:34:43 <zzo38> For 100LEVEL, you are meant to figure out the controls yourself, but here are some hints: They are case insensitive. All functions other than save/quit are accessible using the letter keys. Many functions are accessible using other keys as well (turn NumLock on), but only printable ASCII keys and enter.
20:34:44 <alise> Somehow I suspect not.
20:34:55 <alise> zzo38: /figure out the keys yourself/? Come on.
20:34:59 <alise> Also, I don't have a number pad. Sorry.
20:35:18 <zzo38> alise: Both games are playable without a number pad.
20:35:24 -!- sergio__ has quit (Quit: Sto andando via).
20:35:31 <Vonlebio> Anyone who expects you to divine key bindings deserves to be beaten about the head with a kitten.
20:35:36 <alise> zzo38: I can use a numberpad with Fn+Shift+. Is that okay?
20:35:42 <alise> I mean, is numberpad usage common?
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20:35:50 <alise> zzo38: Also, surely the keybindings are configurable?
20:36:05 <alise> Otherwise if someone doesn't like them how can they change them?
20:36:29 <zzo38> alise: No, sorry they aren't. They are simple games that I haven't put in all those extra configuration option. However, if you have a compiler you can change and recompile the program.
20:37:18 <alise> 16% [=====> ] 438,557 2.61K/s eta 16m 14s
20:37:20 <alise> How ridiculously slow.
20:37:45 <zzo38> For 100LEVEL part of the challenge of the game is figuring out what you can do! (All functions are usable using letter keys, that is a big hint.)
20:37:58 <zzo38> (And all commands in 100LEVEL are case-insensitive, that is another good hint.)
20:38:23 -!- augur has joined.
20:38:36 <Vonlebio> zzo38, s/challenge/pointless annoyance/, then.
20:38:52 <alise> zzo38: I thought you said it was impossible to play without a number pad.
20:38:57 <alise> Numbers aren't letters.
20:39:09 <zzo38> alise: I didn't say it was impossible to play without a number pad.
20:39:26 <alise> <zzo38> alise: Both games are playable without a number pad.
20:39:27 <alise> I thought you said unplayable
20:39:36 <alise> so numpad keys are reproduced as letters elsewhere, gotcha
20:39:41 <zzo38> I said that the number pad are alternate keybindings for some of the functions, all of which can be accessed without the number pad.
20:40:33 <zzo38> (You might be able to guess which letters and number correspond to each other before even playing the game, possibly)
20:41:43 <zzo38> These games fall into the category of simple roguelikes, which means they aren't as complex and generally don't have as much configuration or other features of the complex roguelike games.
20:42:04 <alise> zzo38: It's written in QBasic, right?
20:42:10 <zzo38> (I have ideas for complex roguelike games too, and if I ever invent them, they will definitely have configurable keybindings.)
20:42:19 <zzo38> alise: Yes, both games are written in QBASIC.
20:43:17 <Vonlebio> zzo38, did you write QBASIC yourself?
20:43:32 <alise> [ehird@dinky 100level]$ fbc -lang qb 100LEVEL.BAS -o 100level
20:43:33 <alise> ld: skipping incompatible /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu/4.5.1//libgcc.a when searching for -lgcc
20:43:34 <alise> ld: cannot find -lgcc
20:43:41 <zzo38> FreeBASIC should be able to compile them as well, but you might have to add a few #lang and #define lines to the beginning, and for KING probably change screen modes
20:44:03 <zzo38> 100level should work with the command-line you gave, though.
20:44:42 <zzo38> I don't know what is going wrong there... with the compiler.....
20:46:28 <alise> zzo38: 64-bit issues
20:46:30 <alise> trying to fix them now
20:49:06 <zzo38> I found another issue having to do with compiling 100LEVEL with FreeBASIC: Line 267 says PRINT TAB(80); however that command doesn't seem to clear the line in FreeBASIC. Try this instead, this might work: PRINT SPACE$(80-POS(0));
20:49:54 <alise> So it is textual, then, rather than tiles.
20:49:56 <zzo38> (You could also redefine TAB using the #define command)
20:50:55 <alise> LOCATE 25, 1: PRINT "Dir?"; TAB(80);^M
20:50:59 <zzo38> Most games I design use ASCII grid for tiles. Some more complex games I have created, use graphics either because they are not tiled (but use continuous movement), or because there can be multiple things on a square at once (or other tile things)
20:51:14 <Vonlebio> Does anyone here actually know what the hell the scroll lock does?
20:51:31 <alise> Nothing. On older OSes, something.
20:51:32 <alise> That something is "stop scrolling".
20:51:39 <zzo38> alise: Try this see if this works: #define TAB(_1) SPACE$((_1)-POS(0))
20:51:41 <alise> That is, when new output appears, do not scroll down to see it.
20:51:53 <alise> zzo38: I just replaced them instead.
20:52:08 <alise> Hit: 16/ 16 Mag: 10/ 10 G/E: 0/ 0 Lv: 0 Web: 5 ^ ----- Hit: 16/ 16 Mag: 10/ 10 G/E: 0/ 0 Lv: 0 Web: 5 ^ -----
20:52:27 <zzo38> Vonlebio: In Microsoft Excel (and possibly OpenOffice), scroll lock makes the arrow keys scroll the view.
20:52:32 <alise> Is it meant to display twice, zzo38?
20:52:51 <zzo38> alise: No. What is your terminal size? Make sure it is 80x25
20:52:53 <alise> zzo38: It appears to be continu-- ah. It's 80x25, isn't it?
20:53:05 <alise> Standard Unix terminals are 80x24, leading to my confusion.
20:53:15 <zzo38> You need to change it to 80x25 then.
20:53:38 <alise> zzo38: This is very polished.
20:54:52 <alise> zzo38: I lost. Uh, I did nothing wrong.
20:55:18 <alise> This is not my favourite game.
20:55:19 <zzo38> alise: You probably did do something wrong if you lost. Try a different game mode and/or difficulty level.
20:55:34 <alise> I'm gonna try KING first.
20:56:09 <zzo38> alise: OK. To use it in FreeBASIC, you might have to tell it to change the screen mode to a graphical mode, since it uses IBM extended ASCII and colors.
20:56:25 <alise> KING.BAS(322) error 10: Expected '='
20:56:27 <alise> KING.BAS(323) error 10: Expected '=', found 'mbl64t120o3ml'
20:56:27 <alise> PLAY "mbl64t120o3ml" + s$
20:56:30 <alise> Do I need to load some library?
20:56:43 <alise> Also, sorry; I'm not sure how to tell FreeBASIC to use graphical mode.
20:57:05 <zzo38> alise: Just turn off sound and music, define SUB SOUND(x,y) and SUB PLAY (a$) to do nothing.
20:57:19 <alise> Aww, but I /like/ sound and music.
20:57:31 <alise> It'll work in DOSBox, yes?
20:57:43 <zzo38> Yes it will work in DOSBox
20:58:45 <zzo38> (To tell FreeBASIC to use graphical mode: Enter "SCREEN 9" at the beginning of the program)
20:59:43 <alise> Okay, collect stones. Gotcha.
21:01:00 <alise> I5 pass, P/ quaff, ,- previous potion, .+ is next potion, O* is eat, T0 is throw stone, ;<ENTER> goes down if you have the key, S is toggle sound, ? views instructions
21:01:38 <alise> zzo38: I like the graphics.
21:02:02 -!- Killerkid has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
21:02:17 <alise> Eek! I'm about to die.
21:02:20 <alise> Time to try a potion.
21:02:48 -!- Killerkid has joined.
21:03:01 <alise> zzo38: How many enemies /are/ there?!
21:03:24 <zzo38> There are no experience points in KING or in 100LEVEL. If you beat someone the only things you can get are possibly one item, and that they can't hit you anymore (because they are dead).
21:03:44 <alise> No extra HP, ever?
21:03:57 <zzo38> alise: There are less enemies in earlier level and in easier difficulty mode.
21:04:06 <zzo38> Actually, you can get extra HP in some circumstances.
21:04:31 <zzo38> Not from experience, though. Some potions will give you extra max HP and sometimes going to the next dungeon level increases your max HP.
21:05:41 <alise> 100LEVEL isn't very good on a slow machine
21:05:42 * alise plays king instead
21:05:44 <alise> (dosbox is slow, that is)
21:06:03 <zzo38> You have to be careful in these games! You can't just beat up everyone and expect to win that way.
21:06:42 <alise> I was /avoiding/ beating up everyone.
21:06:46 <alise> Then I got cornered by 'em. :)
21:06:52 <alise> I'm not bad at NetHack, mind you.
21:06:55 <zzo38> You can't avoid beating up everyone all the time either.
21:07:04 <alise> KING is quite an unconventional Roguelike. I like it.
21:07:15 <zzo38> You have to decide due to circumstance.
21:07:46 <zzo38> Yes, KING is quite unconventional, other people say that too, and also like it for that reason.
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21:10:12 -!- Killerkid has joined.
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21:11:20 <alise> zzo38: You're evil. I have to walk through fire to get out of this section.
21:11:38 <Vonlebio> FreeSpace 2 is driving me mad...
21:12:23 <zzo38> alise: Yes, sometimes you do. But you can still heal. And there is fire only because the random number generator generated the numbers to put fire there, not because I deliberately designed it so that you are surrounded by fire all the time....
21:13:25 <alise> zzo38: Is it intentional that it never seems necessary to quaff a potion?
21:14:02 <zzo38> alise: Not quite. In easy modes it is less necessary, but you can still use them to your advantage if you figure out how.
21:14:18 <alise> Oh, you /lose/ health by waiting.
21:14:39 <zzo38> You don't /lose/ health by waiting
21:15:31 <zzo38> Maybe if you have not enough satiation, or you are poison or someone is hitting you, you might lose health by waiting. But normally you earn health by waiting.
21:15:34 -!- derdon has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
21:15:55 <alise> Maybe I was standing on fire.
21:16:08 <alise> Did a lot better than last time though.
21:16:28 -!- augur has joined.
21:16:50 <zzo38> That happens to nearly everyone who plays this game.
21:18:07 <alise> zzo38: Wow, I can't believe it's only ~828 lines (disregarding the comment header).
21:21:28 <Vonlebio> zzo38, what does that thing about "to" on your WP page mean?
21:21:37 <Vonlebio> "This user knows that 'to' is pronounced /tʊ/, not /a/."
21:22:16 <zzo38> Vonlebio: It means that the word "to" should be pronounced properly instead of shortening it so that it is like "a" which is not like "to" at all.
21:22:56 <Vonlebio> Sounds completely alien to me.
21:24:37 -!- ais523 has joined.
21:24:49 <Vonlebio> zzo38, approximately where are you?
21:25:15 <zzo38> Vonlebio: British Columbia, Canada.
21:25:35 <zzo38> (I have never heard of things like "Go a the restaurant", either.
21:25:46 <Vonlebio> zzo38, ah. So what example would you give?
21:26:46 <zzo38> I don't have any example (I can't think of any right now), but I have heard it rarely before, it is not common. But I put it there anyways, when searching through list of userboxes I decided to put that one on.
21:26:55 <zzo38> Some of the userboxes are I created them myself.
21:29:59 <zzo38> (For example, I couldn't find any about Plain TeX or about CWEB.)
21:30:38 <zzo38> (Some of them have changed since I put them there, such as the simplified Chinese didn't mention communists before, and the one about electric sheep used to be different.)
21:31:26 <alise> Communists: dey tak oor jorbs!
21:33:08 <alise> Please tell me you got the joke >.>
21:33:11 <zzo38> alise: Maybe, but the problem with simplified Chinese is itself, not the communists. Communists did make simplified Chinese, of course, but that isn't that makes it so bad. If Hitler played this game, does that make this game bad?
21:33:47 <Vonlebio> It's a well-known debating technique.
21:34:16 <pikhq> Simplified Chinese just sucks aesthetically and is harder to remember than traditional.
21:34:18 <alise> THE JOKE IS THAT COMMUNISTS ARE NOT THE FIRST PEOPLE YOU'D THINK OF THAT WOULD TRY AND UTILISE CAPITALISM TO YOUR OWN DISPLEASURE >_>
21:34:29 <zzo38> pikhq: I agree with that.
21:34:47 <zzo38> Simplified Chinese is more difficult to understand than traditional Chinese.
21:34:58 <pikhq> Vonlebio: It's quicker to write, but harder to learn.
21:34:59 <Vonlebio> This is a very valid concern for me, since I can barely write English legibly.
21:35:24 <Vonlebio> Although my penmanship when writing backwards is rather better.
21:35:35 <Vonlebio> And when writing Tengwar. But I digress.
21:36:07 * alise wonders what language to write a little roguelike in
21:36:19 <pikhq> The thing is, traditional Chinese is composed of other characters. Simplified Chinese then takes these composed characters and applies shorthand to it, making it so that the structure is non-obvious unless you already *know* traditional Chinese quite well.
21:37:35 * Vonlebio still thinks that "Haskell" is a brilliant first name.
21:37:52 -!- jcp has changed nick to javawizard.
21:38:21 -!- javawizard has changed nick to jcp.
21:38:28 <zzo38> alise: You can use QBASIC like I did if you want, in my opinion it works well for writing small simple games. But C is also good, and Enhanced CWEB, you can also use Perl or Ruby or Python or whatever, and there are other choices, too.....
21:38:32 <pikhq> And the ability to write them quickly is not all that essential now, what with computers doing the work for you.
21:38:50 <Vonlebio> pikhq, but what do you do when you need to write stuff quickly!
21:39:12 -!- jcp has changed nick to javawizard2539.
21:39:16 <pikhq> Vonlebio: If you're experienced with traditional Chinese characters, you can write them very quickly.
21:39:33 <alise> zzo38: QBASIC is ... not the greatest thing on anything that isn't Windows.
21:39:34 <Vonlebio> pikhq, but what if you have awful handwriting?
21:39:41 <pikhq> Believe me, you won't.
21:39:45 -!- javawizard2539 has changed nick to jcp.
21:40:01 <alise> Typing Chinese is a bitch, of course.
21:40:04 * pikhq has absolutely horrifying English handwriting, and actually rather good Japanese handwriting for the most part
21:40:09 <alise> I haven't ever done it and I still know it's a bitch.
21:40:11 <zzo38> alise: Well, yes. (Also DOS, of course.) Use the programming language you prefer
21:40:18 <pikhq> alise: Well, it depends. There's a few different ways of typing it.
21:40:32 <Vonlebio> pikhq, yeah, same with me, but with backwards English and Tengwar (don't ask).
21:40:34 <zzo38> pikhq: I can write in Japanese, in my opinion my Japanese writing is not that bad
21:41:09 <pikhq> alise: Character structure based methods (you type a few components of the character) or phonetic methods (you type in a phoneticisation of a Chinese language and out comes Written Chinese)
21:41:32 <pikhq> alise: And of the phonetic methods, you get either Romanisation or Bopomofo.
21:41:47 <alise> Gangsta romanisation in da haus
21:41:48 <zzo38> Although when writing Japanese texts out by hand, I usually use katakana since I can write it more easily, but I sometimes use hiragana or kanji, too, sometimes.
21:42:19 <pikhq> zzo38: I use just normal Japanese. Because dammit, I can write it reasonably fast.
21:42:42 <pikhq> Well, except when I feel like using uncommonly used kanji...
21:42:47 <zzo38> pikhq: What about Chinese character with similar pronounce?
21:43:08 <pikhq> zzo38: Like in Japanese, one then selects the specific character or characters from the IME menu.
21:43:13 <zzo38> pikhq: When typing on computer I use hiragana and katakana and kanji, but when writing by hand I find it easier to just write mostly in katakana.
21:43:35 <zzo38> pikhq: O, OK. So you use menu like that
21:43:47 <pikhq> And if writing out the phoneticisation by hand, well. You make damned sure to not be ambiguous.
21:44:14 <pikhq> (though why you would do this except as a gloss is beyond me)
21:44:31 <pikhq> (well, gloss *and* usage in foreign-language text)
21:45:17 <alise> i need a one-word synonym of hack in the sense of literary hack
21:45:25 <zzo38> When writing in Japanese, you can add furigana texts to kanji sometimes, it makes it easier to pronounce the kanji.
21:45:41 <pikhq> zzo38: Yes, that's a gloss.
21:46:05 <pikhq> As far as I'm aware, it's not commonly done in Chinese, though.
21:46:42 <pikhq> Probably having something to do with it being a hell of a lot easier to remember the pronunciations in Chinese languages.
21:46:54 <pikhq> (in general, 1 reading per character.)
21:46:59 <alise> Flemish is just the best language
21:47:06 <cpressey> zzo38: At a guess, how many games have you written?
21:47:07 <zzo38> pikhq: I think you are right, but due to how Chinese language works, there are reasons why it is not commonly done in Chinese, like that. And I think you are right about that too, because each character is pronounced only one way in Chinese.
21:47:31 <alise> zzo38: Oh, another issue of FreeBASIC is that it's 32-bit only.
21:47:34 <zzo38> cpressey: Maybe twenty games.....
21:48:06 <pikhq> There's also the thing about it being several related languages which have the same written form.
21:48:27 <pikhq> (said written form being the vernacular form of *one* of these languages. Urgh.)
21:50:44 <cpressey> zzo38: That's decent. I know I've written at least two. Most others were incomplete or just ideas. Or too embarrasing to admit.
21:50:49 <zzo38> If you want a longer game I have created, which is pre-made rather than a roguelike game, try Super ASCII MZX Town series.
21:50:56 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/mzx1/ASCMZXTO/ASCMZXII.ZIP
21:51:05 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/mzx1/ASCMZXTO/ASCMZXTO.ZIP
21:51:23 <zzo38> You need MegaZeux to run this game ASCMZXTO
21:52:31 <zzo38> Find MegaZeux at: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/mzx1/mzx_extended/ or http://vault.digitalmzx.net/ (the first link is recommended since it contains some fixed features and stuff, but you have to compile it yourself it you aren't on Win32)
21:53:24 <cpressey> Megazeux is written in Forth? Interesting.
21:53:42 <zzo38> cpressey: No, MegaZeux is written in C.
21:53:57 <zzo38> But it includes a Forth interpreter, which I have added.
21:54:00 <cpressey> zzo38: OK, *you* have extended it with Forth?
21:54:57 <cpressey> zzo38: Will it "just build" on Linux?
21:55:03 <zzo38> (Only the first URL to find MegaZeux is the version that includes Forth and other new features. However, Part I of the Super ASCII MZX Town! series works on both versions of MegaZeux. Part II requires my extended version and doesn't work with mainstream MegaZeux.)
21:55:25 <zzo38> cpressey: I'm not sure, you might have to run the configure script, and then it should just build, if you have SDL.
21:55:44 <cpressey> OK, I'm pretty sure I got SDL at some point for something.
21:55:50 <pikhq> Vonlebio: BTW, if you *really* wanted to write fast while using a Chinese script, you'd just learn grass script.
21:56:01 <pikhq> Unfortunately, it's obnoxiously hard to read.
21:56:34 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes I know it is hard to read. In Japanese shogi game, I think the promoted side of pieces is written using grass script.
21:56:48 <pikhq> zzo38: To varying extents.
21:57:07 * pikhq just writes in semi-cursive script and calls it a day
21:57:26 <zzo38> And I think the unpromoted side of shogi pieces is semi-cursive kanji script.
21:58:27 <zzo38> cpressey: Did the program build for you? (You need megazeux_src.zip and then build it)
21:59:49 <cpressey> zzo38: Won't be able to try it for a while.
22:00:15 <Zuu> ah, no worries.. :)
22:00:38 <zzo38> Vonlebio: It is a game creation system, originally designed for DOS, by Gregory Janson. But these days it is not DOS anymore, and many people are changing MegaZeux, including myself.
22:03:08 <zzo38> I didn't count how many games I have written, but I have written a lot.
22:03:58 <Vonlebio> I can't write games, since it involves UIs. Which I hate.
22:05:15 <zzo38> Do you know, there are a few problems I have with module music formats that MegaZeux uses. One problem is lack of macros and other programming features like that, another problem is that only twelve-tone equal temperament is usable, so I can't use just intonation, or Bohlen-Pierce, or anything else.
22:05:19 <Vonlebio> zzo38, if you have a userbox stating yourself to be asexual, is it really necessary to also declare yourself single?
22:05:46 <zzo38> Vonlebio: Well, I just did, anyways. (If you don't like it, change it! It is a wiki and anyone can change things to improve it)
22:06:07 <Vonlebio> zzo38, no. User space is yours, at least in my opinion.
22:07:37 * Vonlebio is surprised that the punctuation-in-quote-marks rule is American.
22:08:03 <Vonlebio> That kind of rule tends to be in British English and removed from American...
22:09:49 <zzo38> Vonlebio: I use logical quotation marks, also called "hacker grammar", and also generally closer to British punctuation, also. That means if you are quoting something else, inside of another sentence, put the . outside the quotation mark.
22:11:25 <zzo38> Something you might be interested to know (?): In MegaZeux Forth, there is a command CRASHMZX that does nothing normally, but if compiled in debug mode it causes a deliberate segmentation fault.
22:12:07 <Vonlebio> The most ludicrous instance of the other form I have seen was in OSDI, where Tanenbaum says something like "To copy a file, type "cp."" and then pontificated for about a paragraph on how silly it was.
22:12:09 <zzo38> It seems strange, but actually I have found CRASHMZX useful when debugging some features in MegaZeux.
22:13:30 <zzo38> Vonlebio: Another rule I use is that a case-sensitive word at the beginning of a sentence that must be lowercase, will be remained lowercase insteado of being capitalized. However I might also try to rearrange the words so that a case-sensitive word does not come at the beginning of the sentence.
22:14:46 <cheater-> can you answer my question please.
22:15:24 <Vonlebio> cheater-, he got discharged or somesuch.
22:17:00 <zzo38> Do anyone here know how to make a DVI driver?
22:18:11 <zzo38> Vonlebio: Yes. If I write a DVI driver then I can write TeXnicard. (TeXnicard is meant to be a replacement for Magic Set Editor. I don't like all the features of Magic Set Editor, so if I write TeXnicard it can be better)
22:19:59 <zzo38> TeXnicard, in my current idea, would consist of a group of related programs: "texnicard", "symnicard", "picnicard", "dvinicard", "webnicard".
22:21:12 <zzo38> Do you like this idea? What is your opinion? Have you ever used Magic Set Editor?
22:23:21 <pikhq> zzo38: Replacing MSE? Awesome.
22:23:25 <pikhq> MSE is rather annoying.
22:23:39 * coppro concurs, and he works on it!
22:23:41 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Quit: Quit).
22:23:49 <pikhq> Especially given that the Linux port *doesn't even work*.
22:23:51 <coppro> (well, more like has worked. I haven't touched it in months)
22:24:07 <pikhq> coppro: I can blame *you*!
22:24:14 <coppro> I'm /really/ bad at packaging Linux software, I've leared
22:24:16 <pikhq> BTW, the last version came out early last year.
22:24:31 <ais523> pikhq: there's a Linux port of MSE?
22:24:32 -!- Flonk has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:24:40 <coppro> the release system works something like this:
22:24:46 <coppro> a) Twan decides he wants to release
22:24:47 <ais523> oh, I translated that in my head as "Microsoft Security Essentials"
22:24:47 <pikhq> It's a wxWidgets program...
22:24:50 <ais523> no wonder I was surprised
22:24:50 <zzo38> If I write TeXnicard, it will work on many systems. Because, I plan to use the programming languages: Enhanced CWEB, TeX, METAFONT, Forth.
22:25:03 <coppro> c) I run around in circles because I just found out, and ship a shoddy Linux version
22:25:18 <ais523> we so need Microsoft to make an antivirus for Linux
22:25:20 <coppro> zzo38: I already smell significant font troubles
22:25:23 <ais523> in... an attempt to make it look virusridden?
22:25:42 <zzo38> That is, that "texnicard" would be a macro package written in TeX, "symnicard" a macro package written in METAFONT, and the other three in Enhanced CWEB.
22:25:54 <coppro> pikhq: not to mention that there are many bugs in the Linux version, including wonderful wonderful crashes that avoid my every attempt to detect
22:26:08 <coppro> (I've tried valgrind, watchpoints, everything, and yet somehow memory still gets corrupted)
22:26:14 <zzo38> coppro: I can use a program that converts TrueType fonts to METAFONT, which I have found. I can use that initially to convert the MSE fonts, until I get a better way
22:26:49 <pikhq> coppro: Lets see if I can find some of the patches I made to get it *build*.
22:26:54 <pikhq> (not work, just *build*)
22:27:15 <coppro> pikhq: I've fixed a number of issues from the last shipped version
22:27:37 <pikhq> Okay, then I'll try the SVN.
22:27:45 <coppro> you'll probably still have issues, just less of them
22:27:58 <zzo38> The program "picnicard" however, is intended to be a graphical interface for importing pictures for card art and card templates, and for placing boxes on the page. So it might not work quite as cross-platform as the others, but the system can work without it if you enter the box coordinates manually.
22:27:59 <coppro> I wish I had the time/drive to one day just rip out autoconf
22:28:43 <coppro> it's a mess, because a) I don't understand it b) it's autoconf
22:28:45 <zzo38> Unlike MSE, though, you would not use the GUI to write text on the cards, and generate packs, and stuff like that, all of that would be done in plain text files, and using command-line tools.
22:29:12 <pikhq> coppro: Okay. Lemme finish some stuff and I'll see what I can do about that build system.
22:29:16 <coppro> zzo38: MSE can be interacted with on the command line; there is not a full suite of tools but the architecture would allow for it
22:29:18 <zzo38> So, it is sort of reverse of MSE. Because in MSE you must enter box coordinates manually but you create cards using GUI. TeXnicard is the other way around.
22:29:30 <pikhq> First failure: you have configure in version control.
22:29:54 <coppro> pikhq: I thought that was the norm?
22:30:18 <pikhq> No. It breaks shit.
22:30:26 <zzo38> coppro: Yes I know MSE has command-line mode, and that it isn't very good. That is one reason for why I want to invent TeXnicard.
22:30:32 <pikhq> Second failure: USE PKGCONFIG
22:30:46 <cpressey> It would be really cool if autoconf/configure could work like cog does.
22:31:08 <coppro> pikhq: seriously, please don't tell me this advice. I'll rip autoconf out before I actually fix it
22:31:18 <cpressey> pikhq: http://nedbatchelder.com/code/cog/
22:31:34 <pikhq> coppro: I'm liable to fix it myself.
22:31:38 <pikhq> # This file is generated by MakeAM.sh. DO NOT EDIT!
22:31:49 <cpressey> I dunno, maybe it wouldn't make it suck that much less.
22:31:58 <zzo38> Instead of autoconf and make and those things, I think the program CSPIDER can work better, in my opinion (I have used it and it does work much more cleanly)
22:32:05 <alise> is there any easy way to insert the cp437 chars in DOS?
22:32:06 <pikhq> On the bright side, it's not recursive make.
22:32:12 <alise> can i press something to insert the little smiley (\1)
22:32:24 <zzo38> alise: Press CTRL+A
22:32:34 <coppro> pikhq: please don't look at the hacks I had to include to use a precompiled header
22:32:38 <zzo38> But the command-prompt will display ^A
22:32:49 <pikhq> coppro: No. Precompiled. Headers.
22:32:51 <zzo38> But if you type ECHO and CTRL+A it will display the smiley face
22:32:55 <pikhq> That is a broken broken broken feature.
22:33:08 <coppro> pikhq: in autoconf or generally?
22:33:20 <coppro> (btw they're off by default)
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22:34:05 <zzo38> CSPIDER was designed to fix all these problems with makefiles and autoconf. (CSPIDER is the third program of Enhanced CWEB, the other two being CTANGLE and CWEAVE.) (And all three take the same input file format.)
22:34:18 <pikhq> They just plain don't work.
22:34:28 <alise> Aww, are we having a hug-sob orgy?
22:34:31 <alise> Uh, in the past, that is.
22:34:31 <Vonlebio> zzo38, are those your names for things?
22:34:41 <coppro> pikhq: well, we can have this discussion later
22:34:43 <alise> <zzo38> alise: Press CTRL+A
22:34:43 <alise> <zzo38> Or ALT+numpad1 ;; in QBasic
22:35:02 <zzo38> Vonlebio: CTANGLE and CWEAVE are part of the original CWEB, I made Enhanced CWEB, which improves CTANGLE and CWEAVE, and I have added CSPIDER.
22:35:20 <zzo38> alise: O, in QBASIC? Use CHR$(1)
22:35:26 <alise> zzo38: but i mean to insert it direclt
22:35:31 <zzo38> Or push CTRL+P CTRL+A to include it directly in source code.
22:36:11 <pikhq> coppro: So. Let me finish some stuff up and then I will rewrite the build system. It should be understandable after that.
22:36:13 <zzo38> But I do not recommend inserting it directly.
22:36:25 <coppro> pikhq: I would appreciate that very very very much
22:36:32 <coppro> it might reinvigorate my desire to work on MSE
22:36:53 <coppro> btw, my horrible shell script of an installer should be shot, I know
22:37:07 <pikhq> Yes. Just use a tarball.
22:37:23 <pikhq> (as autotools will make)
22:37:55 <coppro> pikhq: I would be much obliged if the rewrite isn't autotools-based
22:38:34 <pikhq> coppro: Sorry, but almost everything else sucks more. And this is simple enough that autotools will be clean and (dare I say it) sexy.
22:38:36 <Vorpal> I should start using binary prefixes for other things than bytes. Like kibimeter (kim?)
22:39:01 <coppro> oh right, I just remembered
22:39:11 <coppro> it won't compile right now becasue of some dumb 'upgrades' to wxWidgets
22:39:53 <zzo38> If I learn how to write DVI driver, and other stuff, I can invent TeXnicard, and then I will use TeXnicard instead of MSE. Because TeXnicard much more better ideas!
22:40:06 <coppro> I'll fix those and commit
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22:44:06 <zzo38> cpressey: What are CFOLD, CSTAPLE, CMUTILATE?
22:45:39 <zzo38> cpressey: That doesn't explain it. Can you explain better, and more specifically what it is and so on, instead uf just if it is beauty?
22:47:08 <cpressey> zzo38: They're figments of my imagination. Have you ever seen the admonition on paperwork, "Do not fold, staple, or mutilate?" Sometimes "bend" and "spindle" are in there too.
22:47:14 <coppro> pikhq: oh, please please please make it link boost statically
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22:51:07 <zzo38> cpressey: OK. But it is your imagination, are CFOLD and stuff supposed to be a new kind of program? If so, what is your idea about it?
22:53:19 <cpressey> zzo38: An eso build system integrating a literate programming system, a package manager, a language-dependent aspect-oriented compiler, a build orchestrator and a download manager. And probably some other things, since those by themselves doesn't sound like a wild enough party.
22:53:52 <cpressey> Oh, that should be "language-independent"
22:54:04 <cpressey> Probably throw a VM in there too.
22:54:08 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
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22:56:32 <cpressey> There should probably be a compiler-compiler in there somewhere too. Oh, a macro system. Actually just make those both be the same thing.
22:57:07 * cpressey begins work on the Eclipse plugin
23:01:30 <Vonlebio> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:ConMan/List_of_numbers_that_are_always_odd ← *this was a real article.*
23:02:13 <alise> LOVE YOUR DIAPHRAGM
23:02:32 <alise> pikhq: If you won't make it a nice, well-engineered, simple Makefile, then I will.
23:03:19 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:03:31 <alise> "Odd numbers." --List of numbers that are always odd
23:03:50 <alise> [[Numbers equal to one-half the year of a World Cup year since 1966 or Winter Olympic since 1994]]
23:04:16 <alise> "Throughout the last several centuries, an even number of days in January has been an infallible sign that nobody will die, a fact which hypochondriacss should take note of."
23:04:35 <Vonlebio> At one point, there was an edit war over whether 3 should be included.
23:04:40 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:05:03 -!- augur has joined.
23:05:28 <oerjan> 08:59:58 <alise> Now consider an 8-bit binary number; 01010101.
23:05:28 <oerjan> 09:00:06 <alise> To get the result for a given tuple, look at its position in the ordering.
23:05:49 <alise> <oerjan> 09:00:06 <alise> To get the result for a given tuple, look at its position in the ordering.
23:05:58 <oerjan> you realise this is exactly wolfram's naming scheme for elementary CAs?
23:06:37 <alise> oerjan: does his ordering go FFF, FFT or TTT, TTF?
23:06:49 <Vonlebio> alise, evidently, you are but a finger of Wolfram's ego.
23:07:01 <alise> hmm, interesting, so if cpressey was right about the blitting lifes
23:07:12 <alise> then a combination of elementary CAs can easily produce GoL
23:08:20 <alise> <Vonlebio> At one point, there was an edit war over whether 3 should be included. ;; hahaha
23:08:32 <cpressey> The impl I was thinking of, btw, is PopLife, on Fred Fish disk #111.
23:08:39 <Vonlebio> END THE HEGEMONY OF 3-ODDISTS!
23:09:44 <oerjan> that is, rule 110 is 64+32+8+4+2 = 2^6+2^5+2^3+2^2+2^1, the exponents are 110, 101, 011, 010, 001 in binary
23:09:46 <cpressey> Oh man, looking at this is making me miss the Amiga :(
23:10:05 <oerjan> which are exactly the combinations which give 1
23:10:27 <cpressey> http://uk.aminet.net/pix/irc/Fred.jpg
23:10:59 <Vonlebio> "Fred Fish" was the account name for a school computer at one of my schools.
23:11:01 -!- tombom_ has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:11:09 -!- Vonlebio has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:11:10 <alise> cpressey: Do you have that disk? :P
23:11:24 <alise> I wonder if NetBSD runs on Amigas...
23:11:32 <cpressey> alise: I used to! I found the source, going to pastie it if 27K isn't too big...
23:11:35 <alise> (The primary point to old hardware is NETBSD.)
23:11:43 <cpressey> http://aminet.net/search?query=poplife
23:11:58 <alise> I have no lha tools :)
23:12:11 <alise> bit blitting is so cool
23:12:38 <cpressey> Replete with inline 680x0 assembly code.
23:14:28 <alise> oh, it isn't all assembly?
23:15:07 <alise> cpressey: I bet that won't run in UAE.
23:15:10 <cpressey> Everything written for the Amiga was a mix of C and 680x0, it seems.
23:15:22 <cpressey> alise: Oh, I bet it wi- ... might.
23:15:33 <alise> cpressey: Go on. Try it. :P
23:15:43 <cpressey> When I install UAE again, I will :)
23:16:16 <cpressey> Damn, I am too sad from nostalgia. I have to back away from this. Sorry.
23:16:40 <cpressey> Hey, c'mere Django! Gimme that frickin META.QUERY_STRING! grrrr
23:17:10 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:17:11 <alise> I think Nostalgia is probably the best and worst thing ever.
23:17:25 <cpressey> Yeah no kiddin', Django uggh,.
23:17:44 <alise> * Here we set things up. (Or do we upset them? :-)
23:18:06 <alise> Well, I can safely say I have no fucking idea how that Life works.
23:18:25 <cpressey> Yup. That's how it made me feel too.
23:19:47 <alise> All I know is DAMN BLIT IS AWESOME
23:19:58 <alise> I propose we mandate that all new hardware have blit support.
23:20:15 <cpressey> btw, Eightebed is almost done. I think it does everything it's supposed to. I just need to add a memset() in one place in the generated code to ensure structures are initialized, and one or two more unit tests, and polish the doc, and I'll release it.
23:20:32 <oerjan> <alise> Vonlebio: wait, that's latin?
23:20:34 <alise> Does it yield eightebenment?
23:20:45 <alise> oerjan: yeah but it looked like it could be latin, theoretically
23:20:54 <oerjan> italian tends to do that :D
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23:21:48 <oerjan> "film" is not a plausible latin word, i think
23:22:02 <oerjan> while it's exactly how italian does borrowings
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23:23:52 <alise> cpressey: there is an Amiga NetBSD port! woowowowowo
23:25:15 <cpressey> alise: Oh. Yes, I knew that. But didn't make the connection.
23:25:32 <cpressey> alise: Are you looking at getting a vintage computer?
23:25:47 <alise> i always want vintage computers
23:25:55 <alise> i had a powerpc mac recently and that was sweet even though it wouldn't run linux
23:25:59 <alise> very very slow though
23:26:06 <alise> imac g3 is kind of shit
23:27:17 <alise> they don't crash that much
23:27:33 <alise> guru meditation is a far cooler screen tho
23:27:51 <alise> i tell you though, booting linux from mac os classic
23:27:56 <alise> i had to use an ancient version of debian
23:27:58 <alise> never got past bootup
23:28:11 <alise> cpressey: there's a port to the Atari ST, too
23:28:15 <alise> or at least I guess ST, since it's 68k
23:28:33 <alise> wow a website that changes my mouse cursor
23:28:35 <alise> haven't seen that for a while
23:28:40 <pikhq> Say, does anyone happen to have any idea how to write up answers for a list of homework problems in LaTeX nicely?
23:28:45 <alise> to the workbench cursor
23:28:50 <alise> pikhq: I SAID STOP :|
23:29:15 <pikhq> coppro: Link? Boost? Statically? NO NO NO
23:29:33 <pikhq> alise: TeX. Homework. I don't want it to be handwritten because I'd like to get credit for it.
23:29:36 -!- tombom has quit (Read error: No route to host).
23:29:46 <alise> pikhq: If you're making it autotools, I'm making a sane Makefile version, I said.
23:29:50 -!- tombom has joined.
23:29:53 <alise> Because I refuse to let autotools exist.
23:29:59 <pikhq> alise: YOU ARE DISCUSSING A DIFFERENT CONTEXT
23:30:06 <alise> So don't use autohel or be faced with harsh competition :|
23:30:11 <pikhq> alise: I AM TALKING ABOUT HOMEWORK YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT BUILD SYSTEMS
23:31:16 <pikhq> Heck, if you could just tell me how to make non-centered display math, I'd be satisified.
23:31:24 <alise> pikhq: It can be done.
23:31:30 <alise> BUT I WILL WITHHOLD THE SECRET
23:32:01 <pikhq> alise: Fucking hell stop being a bitch.
23:32:19 <alise> I'm joking; I assumed you were too.
23:33:11 <pikhq> I'm not joking about trying to type up my homework and not wanting it to look like shit.
23:35:20 <alise> the actual answer is "i've forgotten, google it"
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23:46:19 <cpressey> I have to stop writing things in Python.
23:46:36 -!- kwertii has joined.
23:48:23 <zzo38> cpressey: Then use different program language.
23:48:32 <alise> zzo38: he's sort of paid to
23:48:55 <cpressey> Yeah, but I did mean, for my own stuff.
23:49:27 <zzo38> cpressey: OK. Which other programming languages do you want to use? You can use many program language for different purposes.
23:50:13 <nooga> do you think that 'forfiter' is a good name for an app ?
23:50:21 <oerjan> !haskell import Control.Monad; funs i o n = forM (replicateM n i) $ (`map` o) . (,); main = print $ funs [0,1] [0,1] 2
23:50:26 <cpressey> I should probably either: a) get back into Haskell, or b) write something in Ruby, just so I can say that I did.
23:50:34 <EgoBot> [[([0,0],0),([0,1],0),([1,0],0),([1,1],0)],[([0,0],0),([0,1],0),([1,0],0),([1,1],1)],[([0,0],0),([0,1],0),([1,0],1),([1,1],0)],[([0,0],0),([0,1],0),([1,0],1),([1,1],1)],[([0,0],0),([0,1],1),([1,0],0),([1,1],0)],[([0,0],0),([0,1],1),([1,0],0),([1,1],1)],[([0,0],0),([0,1],1),([1,0],1),([1,1],0)],[([0,0],0),([0,1],1),([1,0],1),([1,1],1)],[([0,0],1),([0,1],0),([1,0],0),([1,1],0)],[([0,0],1),([0,1],0),([1,0],0),([1,1],1)],[([0,0],1),([0,1],0),([1,0],1),([1,1],0)],[([
23:50:37 <cpressey> Well, I've written stuff in Ruby at work, actually, so that's not pressing.
23:50:55 <nooga> alise: resembles something?
23:50:55 <oerjan> alise: ^ (*MWAHAHAHA*)
23:51:05 <alise> nooga: makes me think for filter
23:51:09 <alise> before i see forfiter
23:51:15 <alise> forfit isn't a word
23:51:41 <cpressey> zzo38: Or I should write more games.
23:51:45 <oerjan> function enumeration in haskell
23:51:57 <nooga> i wanted something that does not mean anything
23:52:02 <cpressey> It's just, it's just, it's just that it's too easy to keep writing in Python, once you've started. Argh.
23:52:30 <cpressey> Neko! Io! Falcon! There are so many choices!
23:52:52 <alise> Neko is shit! Falcon is shit!
23:52:57 <alise> Io is interesting but the library is so bad it's pathetic!
23:53:06 <alise> Smalltalk is interesting but good luck making anything standalone i.e. anything but a server!
23:53:13 <alise> Do something in Forth.
23:53:16 <alise> Use RetroForth or something.
23:53:21 <alise> Make a game in RetroForth.
23:53:23 <alise> Make a roguelike in RetroForth.
23:53:30 <zzo38> Yes, make something in Forth, some time.
23:53:42 <alise> cpressey: RetroForth is the closest thing to on-the-metal Forth you'll find that's hosted in another OS.
23:53:43 <zzo38> Maybe make a MegaZeux game using Forth, if you want to.
23:53:55 <alise> It's a lot simpler.
23:54:07 <alise> 10KiB Linux binary.
23:54:23 <cpressey> Well, I've downloaded it. I might try building it tonight...
23:54:24 <alise> http://rx-core.org/jsvm/ Javascript VM for it :P
23:54:35 <alise> the prompt is a bit weird what with its triggering on space
23:54:40 <alise> dunno if the cli version does that
23:54:59 <cpressey> Does the RetroForth distro come with some good example code?
23:55:02 <alise> "Unlike most Forths, Retro does not buffer on a line by line basis. Input is parsed as it is typed, and words are executed when the spacebar is hit."
23:55:05 <alise> cpressey: dunno, prolly
23:55:11 <alise> http://rx-core.org/pages/
23:55:14 <alise> there's games there
23:55:31 <alise> the game pages don't exist yet
23:55:34 <alise> i bet they're in the source
23:55:49 <cpressey> Ah, the tarball includes a copy of the wiki. Nice touch.
23:55:51 <zzo38> Unfortunately the documentation for MegaZeux Forth is not quite good enough. So just learn from the example
23:55:53 <alise> i dunno about the new retroforth release, so much has changed
23:55:58 <alise> but it's probably still cool
23:56:06 <alise> This is a collection of small applications, libraries, and tools built using the Rx Core.
23:56:08 <alise> http://rx-core.org/dev/projects/playground/index
23:57:00 <cpressey> I have a premonition that this will be frustrating. But we'll see.
23:57:08 <zzo38> Here is a simple example of a Forth code that can be used in MegaZeux: http://www.digitalmzx.net/wiki/index.php?title=PZX#ZZT_Keys
23:57:18 <alise> cpressey: Retro Forth's core, I think
23:57:24 <alise> Older RetroForth was simpler.
23:57:46 <cpressey> Well, I must needs be off, I'm afraid.
23:57:47 <alise> You could try http://s3.retroforth.org/download/10.x/retro-10.5.tar.gz
23:58:05 <zzo38> But if you want to learn MegaZeux, play my Super ASCII MZX Town game. (Part I does not have any Forth codes, but you can learn from it anyways, and it is good game, try to play this game)
23:58:13 <alise> zzo38: what key in qbasic stops program execution?
23:58:16 <alise> even if it's in an infinite loop
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23:58:52 <zzo38> alise: CTRL+BREAK.
23:59:15 <zzo38> But only in the IDE. When compiled, CTRL+BREAK and also be used, in debug mode compile.
23:59:41 <zzo38> If you push CTRL+BREAK and nothing happen, perhaps because an INPUT$ is active, so push CTRL+BREAK followed by another key.
23:59:43 <alise> Gah; doesn't work in DOSBox.
00:01:48 <nooga> this retroforth is frustrating
00:01:54 <alise> zzo38: so what /does/ Alt+D do in the editor
00:01:58 <alise> nooga: older retroforth was better
00:02:04 <alise> they've recently redone it all
00:02:10 <zzo38> alise: In MegaZeux, you mean?
00:02:17 <alise> zzo38: in your fork
00:02:30 <zzo38> Alt+D toggles default color for objects on/off in my fork. It does the same thing in the original DOS versions.
00:02:45 <zzo38> However, in the modern mainstream MegaZeux, ALT+D in the editor does the same as ALT+E ALT+D
00:03:59 <alise> zzo38: can you tell qbasic to stop UPPERCASING all my code?
00:04:32 <zzo38> alise: If you have QuickBASIC Extended, you can open the file in "document" mode and it will stop reformatting your code.
00:04:53 <alise> I only have QBasic, because I am but a pilgrim. (I can get QuickBASIC, but *eh*)
00:04:57 <alise> QBasic is fast enough, right? :-P
00:05:22 <zzo38> alise: It depends what you are making!
00:08:28 -!- cpressey has joined.
00:08:52 <zzo38> (Later when I make up my own design of computer system, it will include ForthBASIC which allows you to make games and other programs using the built-in Forth or BASIC systems. They can even use game conrtollers, since the computer will have game controller ports on the front and can be used easily as game console system.)
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00:09:58 <zzo38> (The BASIC mode is not intended for writing new programs, it is intended mostly for compatibility with programs in old books. And will probably be designed to require line numbers. Forth mode can be used for new programs, or for system administration. Native codes are also usable. Still, you can write new programs in BASIC if you want to.)
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00:21:38 <alise> qbasic is so liberating
00:21:45 <alise> WHO CARES ABOUT STRUCTS?? JUST USE GLOBALS!
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00:24:59 <zzo38> alise: Structures are useful too, in QBASIC, though. (Use the TYPE command to create structures)
00:25:09 <alise> zzo38: NOBODY NEEDS STRUCTURES
00:25:29 <zzo38> Structures are also useful in other programming languages, too.
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00:26:09 <zzo38> But you are correct, that many of these things can be done without type structures
00:26:14 <zzo38> But sometimes it is useful anyways
00:26:52 <zzo38> Type structures might be useful to load/save the state of a program in a file, using GET and PUT commands, for instance.
00:27:27 <alise> can't you just list the variables to save
00:27:41 <zzo38> alise: Yes, you can. And I have used that way too.
00:28:27 <zzo38> But instead of listing them twice, I use something like FileInt and FileLong and then define those subroutines to use GET or PUT depending on the value of a issaving global variable.
00:28:37 <zzo38> You can also make FileString for variable length strings.
00:28:49 <zzo38> (Which is something that the TYPE command cannot use)
00:29:00 <alise> it is WEIRD how qbasic separates the subs into different windows
00:30:05 <zzo38> If you do not want to use the QBASIC editor, you can just edit it in a separate program and then use QBASIC /RUN to run the program. (Put SYSTEM at the end of the program to cause it to exit QBASIC after it is finished running, this works if the /RUN option is given)
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00:33:06 <Sgeo> Is Forth generally a used language for DSLs?
00:33:10 <zzo38> Did you know that in MegaZeux, the A_SPEC_BOMB flag does nothing, and the A_SPEC_PUSH is the same as A_PUSHABLE flag? These are not features I have added. They were like that when Gregory Janson designed MegaZeux.
00:33:27 <zzo38> Sgeo: What do you mean by DSLs?
00:33:37 <Sgeo> Domain Specific Language
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00:33:52 <zzo38> Sgeo: Forth can certainly be used for those purposes.
00:34:03 <Sgeo> I know it _can_
00:34:08 <Sgeo> Is it a good idea, or bad idea?
00:34:15 <zzo38> It does it better than other general use programming languages do.
00:34:24 <zzo38> It is sometimes a good idea, it depends what you are making.
00:34:31 * Sgeo wants to do AWelectronics in Forth, instead of Haskell as originally planned
00:34:43 <zzo38> Sgeo: What is AWelectronics?
00:35:06 <Sgeo> AW logic gates and so forth, hopefully to build a computer
00:35:13 <Sgeo> Which I think should be a stack machine
00:35:14 <coppro> pikhq: sorry, I went out.
00:35:18 <alise> Sgeo: Forth IS DSLs.
00:35:29 <alise> Every word can read an arbitrary number of words or characters ahead of it.
00:35:31 <coppro> if boost is dynamically linked, you need -rpath, which is EVIL
00:35:41 <zzo38> Forth is much better for domain specific languages than other general purpose programming languages are.
00:35:53 <Sgeo> If it turns out keyboard space is limited, I'd just have the user enter hex digits...
00:35:57 <alise> Sgeo: In fact, you don't write Forth libraries.
00:36:04 <coppro> dynamically linking and boost do not go together generally
00:36:05 <alise> You write Forth languages.
00:36:22 <zzo38> In Soviet Russia, Forth libraries write YOU!!!
00:36:26 <Sgeo> alise, is there a generally accepted way to isolate dictionaries?
00:36:27 <coppro> in fact, boost and dynamic linking should never ever be used together
00:36:30 <Sgeo> And sandbox Forth?
00:36:41 <coppro> because Boost makes new SONAMEs every version
00:36:41 <alise> Sgeo: why are you so obsessed with sandboxing
00:36:43 <Sgeo> Or would I have to write that code myself if I wanted to do that?
00:36:46 <Sgeo> alise, because I am
00:36:51 <alise> Sgeo: I refuse to answer.
00:36:51 <coppro> so all you're doing is wasting space
00:36:56 <alise> zzo38: FWIW, King is ludicrously slow in QBASIC
00:37:21 <zzo38> Sgeo: You can isolate dictionaries, but how it is done depends on the Forth system you are using.
00:37:30 <Sgeo> alise, maybe for Warrigal's new nomic...
00:38:46 <Sgeo> We need ForthNomic ASAP
00:38:57 <zzo38> But if you want to add security stuff and various things like that, it is better built in to the Forth interpreter, before Forth is entered.
00:39:06 <zzo38> Sgeo: That is interesting idea. Now invent it
00:40:28 <Sgeo> How often is LOCAL| used, and is it standard?
00:40:55 <zzo38> Sgeo: I don't know the answer to that question, unfortunately
00:41:15 <zzo38> I don't use it often
00:41:39 <zzo38> But I suppose it can be useful in a few cases.....
00:42:44 <zzo38> I sometimes use the return stack to store a temporary value if it is needed, although usually the data stack is good enough
00:43:13 <Sgeo> Give me some parenthesized arithmatic to RPNize
00:45:13 <zzo38> x=(4+x+y)*(y%(x+4))*(x%(y+4));
00:46:05 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: New quit message. Entering 2006 in style.).
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00:46:50 <Sgeo> x y 4 + + y x 4 + % * x y 4 + % *
00:46:57 <coppro> my answer: "(4+x+y)*(y%(x+4))*(x%(y+4))" toformula calculate x store
00:47:42 <zzo38> Sgeo: Yes that is RPNized.
00:47:45 <alise> Sgeo: % won't be defined, most likely
00:47:51 <alise> you never really do stuff like that in forth :P
00:47:57 <zzo38> In Forth, generally MOD is used for modulo
00:47:58 <Sgeo> alise, what, why not?
00:48:03 <zzo38> x=y=(4+x+y)*(y%(x+4))*(x%(y+4));
00:48:14 <zzo38> (Where X and Y variables)
00:48:17 <alise> because % is a Cism
00:48:21 <alise> it'll most likely be mod if anything
00:48:25 <nooga> Sgeo: return d = w1 = 300+rz+-587 / 644%s(609 / 556) / -648-543 / -382*o8(950%146 / 891, -933 / d6[-519][13]*333)*547+-74*752;
00:48:44 <alise> were you talking to me
00:48:52 <Sgeo> alise, do you have nooga on ignore?
00:49:26 <coppro> I'm afraid of this becoming real: http://www.theonion.com/video/in-the-know-are-tests-biased-against-students-who,17966/
00:49:27 <Sgeo> By "stuff like that", all you meant was the % ?
00:49:49 <zzo38> 4 x @ y @ + + y @ x @ 4 + MOD x @ y @ 4 + MOD * * DUP y ! x !
00:49:51 <alise> coppro: standardised tests are biased against people who are actually intelligent
00:50:31 <Sgeo> It would be broken down into words?
00:50:42 <Sgeo> nooga, roughly Forth's dereference
00:50:48 <pikhq> WHY IS IT IMPOSSIBLE TO FREAKING LEFT-ALIGN AN EQUATION. GOD.
00:50:53 <alise> it reads a word from memory
00:51:30 <alise> pikhq: http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=left+align+latex+equation&aq=f&aqi=g1&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=
00:51:34 <alise> pikhq: I found it in two sections. Can you?
00:51:42 <alise> If yo uwant indented, put fleqn in document class
00:51:47 <alise> and \setlength{\mathindent}{...}
00:51:53 <alise> Lesson to be learned: Google
00:51:56 <zzo38> coppro: Do you have a text version of that article?
00:52:21 <pikhq> alise: I spent a long time Googling.
00:52:26 <nooga> zzo38: do you have computer capable of displaying websites?
00:52:29 <alise> zzo38: no, it's too scholarly
00:52:36 <alise> it has to be displayed in the audiovisual format
00:52:41 <alise> as it presents 57 well-researched graphs
00:52:54 <alise> dedicated to the proposition "are tests biased against students who don't give a shit?".
00:53:05 <alise> WARNING: BLATANT LIES
00:53:09 <coppro> zzo38: unfortunately not
00:53:17 <alise> the thing with the onion is
00:53:27 <alise> they start with the title and just write the rest based on that (they have stated this)
00:53:32 <coppro> in any case, it wouldn't be conveyed correctly; when they do their panels it's not like a traditional news report
00:53:33 <alise> which means reading the whole thing is almost always pointless
00:55:54 <zzo38> How do I write a DVI driver? So that I can make TeXnicard
00:56:41 <alise> zzo38: We don't know.
00:57:12 <alise> cpressey: Amiga was killed by this patent:
00:57:15 <alise> The XOR patent covers the use of the machine language XOR (exclusive-or)
00:57:15 <alise> operator to make a cursor blink in a bitmapped display.
00:57:21 <alise> cpressey: YOUR NOSTALGIA: CRUSHED
00:57:23 <alise> http://xcssa.org/pipermail/xcssa/2005-February/002587.html
00:57:45 <Sgeo> I'm not the only one with severe nostalgia issues?
00:58:01 <alise> cpressey was just mildly nostalgic for the amiga an hour or two ago
00:58:04 <alise> yours is crippling
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00:59:23 <Sgeo> It's not impacting the quality of my life
00:59:29 <Sgeo> I'm not not trying new things
00:59:48 <alise> but you are spending a hell of a lot of time with old things that nobody cares about :P
01:00:07 <Sgeo> But _I_ care about those things
01:00:15 <Sgeo> And so do at least a few other people, usually
01:00:20 <zzo38> Really, there is XOR patent like that? In CZZT, it uses XOR to make blinking text. (But this is not the cursor)
01:00:23 <alise> but you have also said that the currency you care about is attention
01:00:28 <alise> so clearly there is a contradiction here
01:01:15 <Sgeo> alise, the AW community is small enough for a single individual to potentially make waves, even to this day, and large enough to satisfy my attention needs
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01:14:57 <Sgeo> alise, what are some uses of [ ] without LITERAL?
01:15:12 <Sgeo> Also, is Win32Forth decent or horrible?
01:25:34 <Sgeo> What's a good Forth for Windows
01:26:02 <Sgeo> Also, why does a Google for Forth LiveCD not find anything
01:27:19 <pikhq> Okay, screw it, I am *not* going to type this assignment up.
01:27:36 <pikhq> SO FUCKING MANY GRAPHS
01:27:42 <pikhq> WHY ARE THERE SO MANY GRAPHS
01:31:00 <alise> Sgeo: because what would a forth livecd be?
01:32:08 <Sgeo> Some very minimal kernal that had the bare minimum of non-Forth-written Forth interpreter stuff, plus some Forth code, all loaded in
01:32:19 <Sgeo> Something like Losethos, except Forth and decent
01:32:50 <alise> why not just have an asm forth interp and then a forth os?
01:33:18 <Sgeo> alise, ... on a LiveCD
01:33:36 <Sgeo> Make it more accessible
01:33:41 <alise> Sgeo: that's what i meant
01:33:45 <alise> forth code is tiny
01:34:01 <Sgeo> Well, except fewer and fewer computers have floppy drives..
01:34:01 <alise> maybe 5-10k for the compiler
01:34:08 <alise> so put it on a usb stick
01:34:14 <alise> 1-2k for the base set of words
01:34:26 <alise> then maybe 5-7k for a usable OS, perhaps even with a GUI
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01:36:24 <alise> you could fit a web browser and an irc client in 1.44 mb of forth OS
01:36:31 <alise> oberon packs all that in, forth would pack in even more I bet
01:36:45 <SgeoN1> Fuck you in the ass for making me install Symantec
01:37:37 <alise> Niklaus Wirth's latest language, successor to pascal etc
01:37:42 <alise> very small spec (smaller than r5rs)
01:37:46 <alise> OS is very minimal
01:37:50 <alise> inspired plan 9's acme
01:38:13 <Sgeo> Wait, it's old?
01:38:23 <alise> modula-2 is like early 90s
01:38:28 <alise> the os is a bit old
01:38:45 <alise> there's a 2007 revision
01:38:54 <alise> oberon originally came about 86 or thereabouts
01:39:13 <alise> [[The Oberon OS is available for several other hardware platforms, generally in no cost versions. It is typically extremely compact. Even with an Oberon compiler, assorted utilities including a web browser, TCP/IP networking, and a GUI, the entire package fits on a single 3.5" floppy disk. The version which runs on bare PC hardware is called Native Oberon.]]
01:40:26 <Sgeo> I should attempt to determine an upper bound on memory an AW computer can have
01:40:51 <Sgeo> Although at this point, the bound would be much, much, higher than an AW computer could ever actually have
01:41:33 <Sgeo> Imagine, if you will, a VHDL file, that defines circuits for memory. You know the maximum size the VHDL file can have
01:41:39 <Sgeo> That's essentially the bound I'm finding
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01:43:02 <Sgeo> Let's say we go with Ulta
01:43:12 <Sgeo> 11000 bytes per cell
01:43:44 <Sgeo> 20 cells by 20 cells visible at a time (it's going to be less than that)
01:44:20 <Sgeo> And keep in mind, that's orders of magnatude too big
01:44:36 <Sgeo> So, any chance of building a decent Forth machine?
01:44:56 <alise> you can do forth with <10kb of ram
01:45:26 <alise> there's a reason it's primarily used in embedded stuff
01:45:29 <alise> it's really damn good at it
01:46:30 <Sgeo> I should attempt to construct a memory cell, see how many I can fit per cell
01:46:37 <Sgeo> Then I'd have actually useful numbers
01:55:20 * Sgeo still wants to see Forth servers
01:56:31 <Sgeo> YOu know what might be a nice project for me, if I got my hands on a decent Forth?
01:56:40 <Sgeo> Making comments be compiled into word definitions
01:56:51 <Sgeo> But then I'd have to modify SEE to recognize it :/
01:56:58 <alise> I think gforth does that
01:57:01 <alise> gforth sucks though
01:57:44 <Sgeo> What shouldn't I use Forth for?
02:01:37 <alise> Even web development!
02:02:04 <Ilari> Querying 'se': ";; flags: qr rd ra ad; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 0, AUTHORITY: 4, ADDITIONAL: 1."... DNSSEC is actually getting deployed...
02:03:24 * Sgeo ponders how one would go about adding static typing...
02:03:54 <Sgeo> Hmm. Is the stack usually defined at the non-Forth interpreter level?
02:03:55 <oerjan> Sgeo: see the Cat language
02:04:00 <Sgeo> Hmm, that shouldn't be a problem
02:04:48 * oerjan hasn't heard more about Cat in a while though
02:06:46 <Sgeo> http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Forth_Lesson_4
02:06:46 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_(programming_language)
02:06:51 <Sgeo> Ugh, no RECURSE word?
02:07:03 <Sgeo> Just RECURSIVE flag thingy?
02:08:48 <alise> recursive flag is cool :P
02:09:36 <Sgeo> It's completely needless
02:11:55 <alise> nothing wrong with it
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02:16:13 <oerjan> hm it is not clear to me that cdiggins ever got around to actually implementing the static typing part of Cat
02:16:58 <oerjan> it _was_ rather awkward to do inference, i recall
02:17:25 <oerjan> anyway it seems to have been dormant since 2007
02:18:15 <oerjan> basically stack languages with arbitrary no. of input and output are not good matches for the usual type inferencing algorithms
02:24:38 <alise> http://groups.google.com/group/catlanguage
02:24:55 <oerjan> it's just that wikipedia claims the main implementation does not actually support static typing
02:25:11 <alise> well there's something that does, i think
02:25:14 <alise> some cat implementation
02:25:17 <alise> or sub-implementation, etc
02:26:39 <oerjan> "not so dormant" seems only technically correct in this case (the best kind of correct, of course)
02:27:02 <alise> he was doing experimental stuff related to it as of a year ago or s
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02:27:38 <alise> Sgeo: I want to create a Forth OS now... damn you.
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02:58:05 <Sgeo> Words do not express my tiredness
02:59:40 <oerjan> try an interpretive dance
03:14:57 <Sgeo> I think I like Forth's native approach to modularity: Don't worry about overriding something, it won't break anything
03:15:17 <Sgeo> It might break future code that was expecting to use something that was accidentally overridden
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03:32:17 <pikhq> coppro: So, let's see about that build system.
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03:35:35 <alise> pikhq: Is it going to be autohell?
03:40:24 <pikhq> coppro: BTW, AC_CHECK_LIB is a macro that should die.
03:40:44 <alise> pikhq: I warn you, I have Makefile powers and I'm not afraid to use them.
03:42:03 <pikhq> alise: This uses Boost. If it used saner packages, I'd just make it a very simple Makefile.
03:42:16 <alise> pikhq: pkg-config dude
03:42:27 <pikhq> alise: Boost does not install .pc files.
03:42:35 <alise> well then just link the .as in
03:42:57 <pikhq> It spreads headers everywhere.
03:43:15 <pikhq> And its own build system.
03:43:46 * pikhq nukes the support for precompiled headers
03:44:13 <Sgeo> Jonesforth uses [COMPILE], but according to wiki, ANS Forth uses POSTPONE
03:44:24 <pikhq> coppro: Would you say you feel safe in only supporting environments with C99? Yes? Okay, there goes 3/4ths of the configure.ac
03:44:27 <alise> ANS Forth is a bit rubbish
03:44:33 <alise> although quite well-supported
03:44:43 <alise> pikhq: I like how you're making it simpler for me to turn it into a Makefile.
03:44:55 <pikhq> Oh, hey, this doesn't even use conf.h.
03:45:05 <pikhq> Well, then. Makefile anyone?
03:45:11 <Sgeo> How did I forget about :NONAME ?
03:45:47 <Sgeo> I'm starting to think that Win32Forth is rubbish for learning Forth
03:45:56 <Sgeo> : :NONAME ALIGN HERE "0x509E8C" ; ok
03:46:28 <alise> Win32Forth is rubbish
03:46:35 <alise> even gforth sounds better than that
03:46:36 <pikhq> Wait. If this doesn't use conf.h then *there's no point to most of the configure script*.
03:47:19 <Sgeo> alise, so what good Win32 ANS Forths are there?
03:47:36 <alise> Sgeo: i refuse to answer that question because you specified ANS
03:47:41 <alise> which is irrelevant
03:48:35 <Sgeo> WHat good Win32 Forths are there?
03:48:41 <Sgeo> I'll make them ANS myself if I have to
03:49:06 <alise> Sgeo: why do you care so much about ans?
03:49:18 <Sgeo> alise, because I like standards and portability
03:49:21 <alise> some of the best forth programmers including chuck moore don't like it, it's basically irrelevant in practice
03:49:23 <alise> and forth is NOT portable
03:49:26 <pikhq> coppro: It also checks for atomic primitives and never does anything with the results of that test. *sigh*
03:49:29 <alise> it's close to the metal and to the implementation
03:49:47 <pikhq> Oh, wait, src/util/atomic.hpp.
03:50:01 <alise> Sgeo: you should stop approaching every language with the same mindset :|
03:50:59 <pikhq> Still, no point to that check at all. __GNUC__ should suffice.
03:51:11 <pikhq> Erm, no, never mind. It wouldn't.
03:51:25 <Sgeo> What's wrong with Gforth?
03:51:56 <alise> too many OS niceties
03:52:08 <alise> that's not the point of forth, it's not how you get to know how to use forth in a way that really exercises its strength
03:53:38 <Sgeo> I'll avoid the Gforth-specific stuff then
03:54:05 <alise> Sgeo: You're going to try and code pure ANS Forth, aren't you?
03:54:22 <alise> I see linking JonesForth helped not one bit.
03:54:25 <pikhq> AC_CHECK_FUNCS([floor memset pow select sqrt])
03:54:30 <pikhq> That line makes me a sad panda.
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03:54:41 <alise> You are not going to be able to use Forth how it's intended to be used, Sgeo
03:54:42 <Sgeo> It makes me understand how a Forth can work
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03:55:04 <alise> But if you're sticking to ANS Forth, it is irrelevant; it could be coded as stupidly as Python because you refuse to exercise its capabilities.
03:55:06 <Sgeo> Are most metal-level Forths not ANS + extas
03:55:20 <Sgeo> *extras like asm-level stuff?
03:55:28 <alise> asm-level stuff? Dude, Forth IS asm-level stuff.
03:55:34 <alise> That's peek and poke right there.
03:55:41 <alise> It's /not/ a high-level language.
03:55:51 <alise> I mean, it IS, but it's not not low level, either.
03:56:11 <Sgeo> Find me a Forth LiveCD
03:58:28 <pikhq> coppro: You *love* you some cargo-cult programming, don't you?
04:04:05 <wareya> There should be a language were all constructs are metaphors to balancing online games.
04:04:23 <wareya> Empowering, depowering, complicating, and stripping objects.
04:04:43 <wareya> The program is exited once balance is achieved
04:04:59 <pikhq> magicseteditor_CXXFLAGS = $(AM_CXXFLAGS)
04:06:06 <Sgeo> http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/gforth/Docs-html/Designing-the-stack-effect-Tutorial.html#Designing-the-stack-effect-Tutorial
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04:07:06 * Sgeo growls at non-standard { }
04:07:25 <Sgeo> Although I guess it's easy to add
04:08:17 <Sgeo> http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/gforth/Docs-html/Conditional-execution-Tutorial.html#Conditional-execution-Tutorial
04:08:31 <Sgeo> Gforth is not the standards torch-bearer that I expected
04:08:35 <alise> 1. Stop being obsessed with ANS Forth. IT SUCKS. Use the strengths of the implementation. 2. gforth has basically no strengths
04:08:47 <pikhq> And... Your "--debug" flag is stupid. Don't do it.
04:08:54 <alise> Chuck Moore hates ANS Forth. When the creator of a language hates the standard, IT SUCKS.
04:08:57 <alise> Forth is so low-level.
04:09:01 <alise> You're asking for portable assembly.
04:09:07 <alise> Forth is useless without its low-level toolkit.
04:10:54 <Sgeo> alise, does that include LOCAL| ?
04:11:05 <alise> Locals, as a general rule, suck.
04:11:29 <alise> Sgeo: But seriously: LISTEN to my last few lines.
04:11:36 <alise> If you don't, you'll never be able to use Forth effectively.
04:12:48 <Sgeo> What good Win32 Forths are there, and what good bare-metal Forths are there?
04:13:21 <alise> Bare-metal Forths: often you write one yourself. it's hardware, situation - specific.
04:13:35 <alise> win32 forths: it is ok to us gforth as long as you don't use its os integration, just the pure forth parts. but ANS devotion is /wrong/
04:13:46 <alise> retro forth might be cool i guess if you can figure out the weird new version
04:14:21 <Sgeo> Gforth does not seem to be ANS devoted
04:14:39 <alise> I'm saying that your code shouldn't be ANS devoted.
04:15:24 <Sgeo> When doing something practical, sure. But what about academic exercizes?
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04:16:01 <alise> ANS is basically irrelevant. Pretending it doesn't exist is a good start.
04:16:12 <alise> Oh sure, the implementations claim standards-compliance, but that's just to tick the boxes.
04:16:16 <alise> It's not important.
04:17:14 <Sgeo> It should be possible to write tail-recurse using return stack manipulation, right?
04:17:25 <pikhq> coppro: Oh, yeah. BTW. AM_LDFLAGS is the wrong place to place libraries.
04:17:34 <pikhq> Doing that will make it fail to build on modern distros.
04:17:34 <alise> Sgeo: Yes, of course.
04:17:38 <alise> RECURSE is tail-recursive, I think.
04:17:48 <alise> I think such a word exists, though.
04:18:13 <Sgeo> In which implementation? >:D
04:18:46 <alise> I think it's fairly common. I forget the name.
04:19:06 <alise> ColorForth has it without trying :P
04:19:08 <alise> but that's cheating
04:19:14 <alise> since it has way different :/; semantics
04:19:20 <alise> and conditionals (no else clause)
04:19:51 <Sgeo> I've been pondering hypothetical AW SDK bindings to a Forth
04:19:58 * Sgeo prepares to be slapped
04:20:14 <Sgeo> I was thinking I'd make an rc2ex, but I guess it makes more sense to redefine throw
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04:21:36 <alise> : min 2dup > if swap then drop ;
04:21:44 <alise> if swap then drop!
04:21:45 <pikhq> ... Waitwaitwait. The makefile *doesn't* install the data.
04:22:26 <Sgeo> stack-effect comment for 2dup please?
04:22:58 <Sgeo> Wow, that's rather simple
04:23:04 <Sgeo> I would likely NOT think of that
04:23:20 <alise> well i saw : min 2dup < if drop else nip endif ; in the gforth manual
04:23:23 <alise> and it told me to rewrite it without else
04:23:29 <alise> so i just thought about the logic for a second
04:23:38 <alise> but yeah, it takes practice to get good at factoring...
04:24:18 <Sgeo> ...Gforth does define THEN , right?
04:25:34 <alise> i just quoted literally
04:26:57 <Sgeo> I should write PSOX in Forth
04:29:00 <pikhq> coppro: You know what? Fuck that damned thing's design to hell. It should be rewritten.
04:29:11 <pikhq> zzo38: You have license to do your NIH thing.
04:30:26 <alise> He needs to know how to create a DVI driver!
04:36:45 <Sgeo> AWCREATE S" auth.activeworlds.com" 6767 THROW VARIABLE INSTANCE INSTANCE !
04:37:20 <alise> why the hell did you write it like that
04:37:28 <alise> variable declarations go before other code kthx
04:37:38 <alise> why are you throwing there
04:37:49 <Sgeo> alise, because AWCREATE returns an error code
04:38:16 <Sgeo> No, that's how it works in the AW SDK
04:38:20 <alise> s" auth.activeworlds.com" 6767 aw-connect instance !
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04:38:26 <alise> yes, but the AW SDK sucks, I think we can conclude.
04:38:33 <alise> also, hyphenated names, man
04:38:40 <Sgeo> Oh, right, parameters before the word
04:38:47 <Sgeo> That was a Forth thinking fail
04:38:51 <Sgeo> Not an AW SDK fail
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04:39:43 <Sgeo> You still need a throw, or if you're going to ignore the return code, a drop
04:40:31 <Sgeo> Um, does throw attempt to interpret error codes?
04:46:19 <Sgeo> Haven't downloaded Gforth yet
04:47:42 <Sgeo> " Unfortunately, f~, the standard word for that purpose, is not well designed, so Gforth provides f~abs and f~rel as well."
04:47:49 <Sgeo> Wht's wrong with f~ ?
04:47:52 <Sgeo> alise, not literally
04:48:02 <Sgeo> Just return stack stuff I don't understand
04:49:18 <alise> the floating point stuff is shit
04:49:20 <alise> i suggest not using it
04:49:22 <alise> it's really complex
04:49:24 <alise> floating point sucks anyway
04:53:04 <Sgeo> I already know not to use fp for currency, or anything requiring precise stuff
04:53:23 <Sgeo> Floating-point issues do have interesting consequences in Second Life
04:57:38 <Sgeo> The other programmer on the Project decided to use floating-point to store position, despite AW using ints...
04:58:24 <Sgeo> I would have just sighed and not cared if it didn't introduce a bug that was fixed by me adding int-based positions to the code
04:58:37 <Sgeo> Meaning there are two ways to store positions, that must be converted between
05:01:19 <Sgeo> "and therefore this practice was been declared non-standard in 1999."
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05:16:25 <TTUser> so...what happens here
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05:31:06 <coppro> pikhq: I hate most of it
05:31:22 <coppro> except for a few bits, the main code isn't mine
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05:50:44 <pikhq> It amazes me that the US *still* has not converted to metric.
05:51:01 <pikhq> Come on you fools, just freaking do it.
05:52:23 <pikhq> The worst part is, a *lot* of things here are actually *dimensioned* in metric, but *sold* in customary units...
05:54:03 <pikhq> Somehow, it makes more sense to label something as being 23.7 fl oz. than 700 mL.
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10:36:17 <ais523> hmm, reddit found this interesting ontopic link: http://github.com/resistor/BrainFTracing
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10:36:40 <ais523> an LLVM-based tracing JIT for Brainfuck
10:37:55 <ais523> according to the comments, it's quite a bit slower than esotope
10:38:00 <ais523> oh, that was alise's comment
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10:38:16 <ais523> must have been discussed while I wasn't here...
10:41:47 <fizzie> It sounds like it should be, since there's the tracing overhead. BrainFuck is a strange thing to JIT, but I do understand it's more of an LLVM example.
10:42:09 <fizzie> Don't remember seeing any discussion on-channel, but I don't always follow things very well.
10:43:16 <ais523> there's also the way esotope analyses idioms statically
10:43:28 <ais523> the only other compilers I know that do that are in-between for BF, and C-INTERCAL for INTERCAL
10:45:10 <ais523> I'm doing too many other things atm, but if I wasn't busy with anything else I'd probably try to write a BF compiler that beats esotope
10:47:12 <fizzie> That JIT thing does [-], but on the other one everyone does that.
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10:48:58 <fizzie> There's a "jump table idiom" heuristic in my static Funge-98 compiler (funcot), but it's pretty trivial, not-always-correct, and done purely to be able to follow the control flow over "j"s with a non-constant offset.
10:50:46 <ais523> does it fallback or break in the case where it isn't correct?
10:52:22 <fizzie> Break, since it infeasible to follow all possible ways a j can go; and it's a purely static compiler, so there's not much it can do on runtime if it fails. (I seem to recall it fails cleanly, though; if the j offset is outside the "expected" boundaries, it'll die cleanly. (For some values of "clean".))
10:54:13 <fizzie> I'm not sure how common the idiom is, anyway; it's been tuned to work with my code (the j instances found in fungot), so for a non-constant j it expects absolute direction-setting commands immediately after the j, like "[...]jvvvvvvv".
10:54:13 <fungot> fizzie: a small number of gp at the battle arena were done by a huge barrier of light.
10:54:23 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7* fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
10:55:01 <ais523> well, crashing cleanly isn't really breaking
10:55:25 <fizzie> I have this speech corpus in Finnish I could feed to him, but we don't exactly (yet) have a .fi majority here.
10:55:49 <ais523> well, the rest of us wouldn't realise it was nonsensical
10:55:54 <ais523> although we could probably guess
10:56:34 <ais523> and there's no real reason why you couldn't add it as an option alongside the English ones
10:57:45 <fizzie> `swedish That's true; after all, we already have a Swedish-speaking thing.
10:57:54 <HackEgo> Thet's trooe-a; effter ell, ve-a elreedy hefe-a a Svedeesh-speekeeng theeng. \ Bork Bork Bork!
10:58:12 <ais523> meanwhile, I wrote a fuzz-test for the C-INTERCAL optimiser last night
10:58:15 <ais523> and it's found bugs already
10:58:51 <ais523> of course, as is often the case with fuzz-tests, I'm not entirely sure what the bugs are even after it's found them
11:15:36 <fizzie> Hrm, the scripts I have for fungot seem to have some trouble with äös.
11:15:36 <fungot> fizzie: i never saw that report... where is the end. and, this is it! all right, you're right......
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11:42:56 <ais523> meanwhile, esr is trying to prove to me over email that it's legal in the UK and US to relicense GPL code as BSD without permission from its author
11:44:03 <ais523> unfortunately, there's exactly one actual binding precedent decision AFAIK, /Jacobsen v Katzer/
11:44:40 <ais523> but it, plus a few other statements, proves relatively convincingly that it's illegal to relicense code under the Artistic License as BSD (because the verdict disallowed Artistic -> proprietary, and if you could do that via BSD it would be pointless)
11:45:21 <wareya> The origin of code that was relicened doesn't matter as long as the relicense is complete
11:51:40 <nooga> if my project uses a GNU GPL lib, do i have to GPL the whole source?
11:52:30 <ais523> nooga: it depends on how tightly the library binds to the rest of the source
11:52:40 <ais523> but generally, GPL libs don't mix well with non-GPL source; that's why the LGPL exists
11:53:09 <nooga> my project is written in a script language, i just include the lib source and make several function calls
11:53:11 <ais523> there are "definitely illegal" and "definitely legal" combinations and a whole gray area in between...
11:53:40 <nooga> + it's optional, library is only for graphing, so the application works without it, may be treated as a plug-in
11:53:48 <ais523> nooga: are you using only documented APIs? and could the library function as a seperate module from the rest of the app?
11:54:06 <ais523> as in, connecting via RPC over the internet or something, in theory?
11:54:33 <ais523> if so, it's a gray area but probably OK; it's in much the same area as the whole libreadline thing, which people still bitch about to this day on occasion
11:58:50 <asiekierka> oh whee, i'm downloading a webcomic to my PC
12:03:17 <ais523> I feel for you, having to wrestle with cmd scripting
12:03:25 <ais523> although hopefully wget's powerful enough that it isn't so bad
12:03:51 <ais523> (also, cmd finally started copying UNIX shell scripts in many respects, and became a lot better as a result)
12:06:14 <asiekierka> i already downloaded 37% of it (1000 strips)
12:07:25 <ais523> were you obeying the site's robots.txt
12:07:34 <ais523> if you do the download with a single wget command, it does that automatically
12:07:48 <ais523> but presumably if you have a separate wget command for each strip it doesn't
12:10:24 <asiekierka> i use a separate wget command for each strip
12:12:42 <ais523> what are the numbers of the first and last strip?
12:12:53 <ais523> and do the comic numbers include the hundreds, or not?
12:13:03 <ais523> I want to see how quickly I can write this in UNIX shellscrip
12:13:51 <asiekierka> ais523 - the first strip is 1.gif (hundreds number being 0)
12:14:02 <asiekierka> the comic numbers include the hundreds
12:14:23 <asiekierka> and thelast strip is 1000.gif (i'd assume the hundreds number would be 10 this time, but not sure)
12:15:07 <ais523> hmm... what about this: (for x in `seq 1 1000`; do echo http://example.com/comics/$(($x/100))/$x.gif) | xargs wget
12:15:42 <ais523> ah, it's (for x in `seq 1 1000`; do echo http://example.com/comics/$(($x/100))/$x.gif; done) | xargs wget
12:15:45 <ais523> I forgot to end the loop
12:16:00 <ais523> still, that's a one-liner, and even does things like reusing HTTP connections
12:16:04 <ais523> you may as well go the rest of the way
12:16:11 <ais523> how long is your script, btw?
12:16:30 <asiekierka> for /L %%J IN (0,1,9) DO wget http://undefined.net/1/0/%1/%10%%J.gif
12:16:31 <asiekierka> for /L %%J IN (10,1,99) DO wget http://undefined.net/1/0/%1/%1%%J.gif
12:17:00 <ais523> but hmm, makes sense, but rather repetitive
12:17:10 <asiekierka> it gives http://undefined.net/1/0/1/100.gif
12:17:17 * ais523 vaguely wonders if Windows cmd does arithmetic yet
12:18:01 <fizzie> Curl can do the sequence bit independently, but probably couldn't quite do the hundreds-numbers.
12:18:12 <fizzie> I'd have done a bash arithmetic for-loop instead of seq, but that's just me.
12:18:51 <fungot> asiekierka: that means there ain't no gettin' to him.).
12:18:53 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7* fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
12:19:00 <asiekierka> oh hey, my youtube style is still here
12:19:07 <fungot> Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments)
12:19:09 <fungot> asiekierka: holly shit this game could've been one of the controls during the cold war.
12:19:20 <ais523> fungot: and what was being controlled?
12:19:21 <fungot> ais523: a website of one of those two were doin each other! lol, this aircraft crashed was because of the best stories with this
12:19:36 <ais523> now all we need is for fungot to post these on appropriate videos
12:19:36 <fungot> ais523: i'm still trying to slow the plain down. duke is still herself. gosh."
12:21:35 <asiekierka> I should make a youtube comment parser and make it download all comments for a list of like 1000 videos
12:21:53 <asiekierka> fizzie - would fungot lag at a style made with a 15-20MB text file?
12:21:54 <fungot> asiekierka: he wasen't flying so slow with an iq over 50. full crew and 130 passengers, 6 crew members and officials were charged with man slaughter
12:25:37 <fizzie> No, it doesn't keep that stuff in memory.
12:26:07 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube*
12:26:14 <ais523> large memory wouldn't cause lag anyway, would it, assuming it uses some sort of hash table for fungespace?
12:26:19 <ais523> (and if it's running on cfunge, at least, it does)
12:27:29 <fizzie> The europarl sources are something like 80 megs, and the irclogs are reasonably huge too.
12:28:21 <fizzie> 115M model.bin.europarl 187M model.bin.irc
12:29:21 <fizzie> (The model size is somewhat proportional to the amount of text data, given the same sort of settings and so on.)
12:29:56 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
12:30:03 <fizzie> (In other news, my fungot installation seems to take ~600 megabytes of disk space.)
12:30:06 <fungot> fizzie: i would like to thank you for your kind words. i would also ask you to distinguish between three types of approach: strengthening the foundation for trust by the public in the field of human rights in the turkish-cypriot state than a turkish cypriot and a portuguese national, i would like to ask your attention for the victims of this religious policy: christians attached to churches which are not in salaried work, it wa
12:30:07 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, ladies and gentlemen, on behalf of women and the many women whose children have been abducted to western fnord and there has been a considerable increase in the time of the last nominations. ladies and gentlemen, i am sure that the commission has presented two proposals for the reform of the employment strategy and provides for operations that are not clear and it must lead on to a discussion of the erika,
12:30:34 <fizzie> That's strange, it sent both replies to me.
12:30:47 <ais523> we clearly need to rescue these poor children from Western Fnord!
12:31:33 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl* ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
12:31:36 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
12:31:41 <fungot> asiekierka: that sounds a bit suspicious. scheme is a first."
12:33:17 <fizzie> Yes, "hello" sounds very suspicious.
12:33:31 <fizzie> Beware of ircers saying "hello".
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12:44:08 <asiekierka> 1) grab the XML from http://gdata.youtube.com/feeds/api/videos/video ID/comments
12:44:42 <asiekierka> 3) iterate through all the <entry> tags getting the data inside the <content> tag
13:17:41 <asiekierka> fizzie: is there a way to use Sed to wipe any ASCII chars that aren't 32-127?
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13:23:33 <fizzie> It might be a bit sed-specific... piping through tr -cd ' -~' seems to work here.
13:24:07 <fizzie> fis@iris:~$ echo -e '\x10foo\x90bar' | hexdump -C
13:24:07 <fizzie> 00000000 10 66 6f 6f 90 62 61 72 0a |.foo.bar.|
13:24:07 <fizzie> fis@iris:~$ echo -e '\x10foo\x90bar' | tr -cd ' -~' | hexdump -C
13:24:07 <fizzie> 00000000 66 6f 6f 62 61 72 |foobar|
13:24:48 <fizzie> For some reason sed here doesn't like "[^ -~]" as a character range.
13:26:25 <asiekierka> i've made a set of cmd scripts and java classes
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13:26:37 <asiekierka> to download youtube comments and parse them into a fungot-compatible format
13:26:38 <fungot> asiekierka: society doesn't like people with too much time, with the second ( ( length primes) 1)... what would be the best in every metric. but all our programming was in 6th grade
13:30:10 <asiekierka> if you guess which video it is you win
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13:48:53 <asiekierka> i am now downloading each and every comment on Justin Bieber - Baby
13:50:20 <asiekierka> youtube's API just won't let you get more than 1000 comments
13:59:07 <asiekierka> i already downloaded like 6 very popular YT films
13:59:17 <asiekierka> 524KB of YouTube comments and more coming
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14:00:44 <ais523> no you didn't, I'm still alive and the Earth still exists
14:01:01 <asiekierka> (up to 1000 from each video, YouTube API limitation)
14:01:12 <ais523> that's not as bad as destroying the entire universe...
14:01:19 <asiekierka> giving me currently 6000 comments of YouTube stupidity with more coming
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14:29:30 <alise> 02:37:55 <ais523> according to the comments, it's quite a bit slower than esotope ;; based on the author's post saying it's slower than a plain compiler
14:30:23 <alise> 02:47:12 <fizzie> That JIT thing does [-], but on the other one everyone does that.
14:30:26 <alise> the other one WHAT?
14:30:59 <fizzie> The other one hand. I don't know. I must've been confusion.
14:31:14 <fizzie> (For example, I'm a bit away even now.)
14:32:17 <alise> 03:42:56 <ais523> meanwhile, esr is trying to prove to me over email that it's legal in the UK and US to relicense GPL code as BSD without permission from its author
14:32:22 <alise> refuse to help him if he does
14:32:34 <alise> at least, it won't be /your/ problem any more
14:33:10 <ais523> I don't /think/ he will
14:33:16 <ais523> he still thinks it's a dick move even if it's legal
14:33:23 <alise> 03:53:40 <nooga> + it's optional, library is only for graphing, so the application works without it, may be treated as a plug-in ;; Stallman is insane enough that this won't help you if he gets angry
14:33:44 <alise> 03:54:33 <ais523> if so, it's a gray area but probably OK; it's in much the same area as the whole libreadline thing, which people still bitch about to this day on occasion
14:33:50 <alise> Stallman's lawyer agreed with him on that one
14:33:56 <alise> so I'd be very careful there
14:34:02 <alise> of course, nowadays there's libedit :)
14:34:17 <ais523> I think someone should put a server up somewhere which does libreadline over RPC
14:34:56 <ais523> alise: anyway, the argument I just sent esr was "BSD stuff can be relicensed proprietary; therefore, if GPL can be relicensed BSD, then GPL can be relicensed proprietary by making a BSD version in between"
14:35:00 <ais523> and he hasn't answered that yet
14:36:58 <alise> ais523: he's trying to comprehend the concept of "indirection"
14:37:01 <alise> it may take a while
14:37:27 <alise> <ais523> I think someone should put a server up somewhere which does libreadline over RPC ;; ioctl over HTTP? :D
14:37:34 <ais523> also, there's judicial precedent in the US that you can't relicense code under the Artistic License under a proprietary license that doesn't allow distribution
14:37:38 <ais523> alise: it can send the syscalls back
14:38:04 <ais523> also, readline needs ioclts?
14:38:17 <ais523> /curses/ doesn't need ioctls except to figure out the size of the screen
14:39:11 <alise> ais523: Sure it does, to uncook.
14:39:20 <alise> Unless it uses termios or whatever it is these days.
14:39:53 <alise> also, readline needs to know the width of the screen
14:41:41 <alise> 06:00:08 <asiekierka> i just did the worst thing ever
14:41:41 <alise> 06:00:44 <ais523> no you didn't, I'm still alive and the Earth still exists
14:41:52 <alise> what if everything else but the earth was destroyed?
14:42:27 <alise> 00:44:38 * coppro wants to write a BF compiler in sed
14:42:45 <ais523> I think I wrote a Thue-to-sed interpreter in sed
14:42:56 <alise> (My patented today-yesterday-{start of today} log reading method!)
14:43:22 <ais523> treating the "nondeterminism" as "unspecified" rather than "multithreaded" or "backtracking" or "random"
14:43:47 <alise> 06:36:42 <cheater> so
14:43:47 <alise> 06:36:49 <cheater> i'm drinking organic cola
14:43:47 <alise> 06:36:56 <cheater> and it's equally terrible as normal cola
14:43:47 <alise> make some OpenCola!
14:43:56 <alise> it's probably awful!
14:44:18 <alise> I should get around to making some Swig Ingest Drink, that was a nice recipe.
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14:56:42 <asiekierka> fizzie - can you add in a new style in about 5 minutes?
14:56:59 <asiekierka> and it'd be nice if you also had my old "youtube" style in original .txt form somewhere
14:57:08 <asiekierka> i could combine them and get 2.5 megs of comments compared to just 2 megs
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15:22:50 <alise> asiekierka: do you know anything about freedos?
15:23:08 <asiekierka> but i dont know about any specific features of it
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15:23:46 <alise> asiekierka: will it run a .COM that does nasty low-level tricks? to boot an operating system
15:24:01 <alise> i'll just use a boot disk
15:24:15 <asiekierka> alise: it might, but FreeDOS is much more picky about things
15:24:40 <alise> fff, bootdisk.com distributes as EXE
15:25:25 <fizzie> Hey, I've been irritated by that too.
15:25:53 <alise> fizzie: If it's so irritating, tell me THIS: How do I make a floppy disk image with a file in it on Linux? EH?
15:26:17 <alise> "Alternatively, Unix can copy COLOR.COM to a bootable floppy with cp or dd."
15:26:19 <fizzie> There's that "Non-Windows Based Image Files W/ImageApp" bit on bootdisk.com though.
15:26:25 <alise> you could have told me it didn't need DOS earlier, Chuck.
15:26:33 <alise> fizzie: there's also http://www.allbootdisks.com/download/dos.html
15:27:01 <alise> -floppy COLOR.COM feels so weird
15:27:17 <alise> there is no floppy
15:27:23 <fizzie> Anyway, you make a floppy disk image with a file in it with dd'ing a suitably sized blob of zeroes, mkfs.msdos + loop-mount. For a bootable disk you'd have to do more work, though.
15:27:43 <alise> yeah but -floppy COLOR.COM should work in a sufficiently lax VM, right?
15:28:04 <fizzie> Probably, if it's boot-sector-friendly.
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15:28:35 <alise> fizzie: Hmph; do you know the QEMU switch to make it use regular VGA or whatever instead of the card it emulates?
15:29:20 <fizzie> It's "-vga type", but I'm not sure what's the right type.
15:29:34 <fizzie> "std: Standard VGA card with Bochs VBE extensions. If your guest OS supports the VESA 2.0 VBE extensions (e.g. Windows XP) and if you want to use high resolution modes (>= 1280x1024x16) then you should use this option."
15:31:13 <fizzie> Many (or at least some) qemu flags can do things like "-M ?" which makes it list the available machines, but "-vga" doesn't seem to be one of those.
15:31:21 <alise> Gah, it is still the freezy.
15:31:36 <alise> To answer my own question, I have got my modified 800x600 colorForth to _run_
15:31:36 <alise> under qemu-0.7.0. Won't boot 'cause the qemu emulated floppy interface is not
15:31:36 <alise> set up at fd chip level. Probably would work if the floppy I/O was BIOS based.
15:31:44 <alise> Instead, I have a bare DOS boot image with just io.sys, msdos.sys, command.com
15:31:45 <alise> and c4.com. Tell qemu to boot this floppy image and when it comes up to a DOS
15:31:45 <alise> command line, execute c4.com. This loads into memory and then copies 64k to
15:31:45 <alise> address 0 and runs colorForth, so the floppy I/O is never used.
15:32:16 <alise> fizzie: I don't have a mkfs.msdos...
15:33:05 * alise replaces FDISK with COLOR to avoid doing all that.
15:33:18 <fizzie> (In other news, I was about to say: "Ot\ns om dpsfstpps.")
15:33:33 <fizzie> (In case you were wondering about the "Ot".)
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15:33:48 <alise> Wonky QEMU scaling in effect!
15:33:57 <alise> Time to figure out this 27-key Dvorak system!
15:34:14 <alise> (Seriously; it uses these keys: http://colorforth.com/keys.html as Dvorak)
15:34:24 <alise> Apparently the entire right is digits and ?, the left is a bunch of punctuation, z and j
15:34:32 <alise> and I have ".com" and "a"; for what, I know not
15:34:49 <alise> "Mount a formatted floppy. Contents irrelevant." How, you fucker?!
15:35:12 <alise> Oh goody, left alt changes it into actual letters mode.
15:35:41 <alise> "2?" WHY DO YOU NOT RECOGNISE 2
15:36:11 <alise> Yay, dup does something.
15:36:29 <alise> Whoops, I loaded the editor and QEMU crashed.
15:36:46 <alise> qemu: fatal: Trying to execute code outside RAM or ROM at 0x83672a33
15:38:43 <alise> "mount?" WHY ISN'T THAT THE WORD TO MOUNT WHY WHY WHY
15:38:52 <alise> Oh hell let's just assume it's mounted
15:39:08 <fizzie> qemu's monitor (ctrl-alt-2 or some-such) can swap floppies.
15:39:18 <alise> YAY SAVE DOES SOMETHING
15:39:34 <alise> NAMELY APPARENTLY CRASH THE SYSTEM
15:39:35 <fizzie> (Or "qemu -stdio", which is more convenient; then you can use the original terminal to fiddle with the monitor.)
15:40:34 <alise> Now I get to figure out the editor
15:40:53 <alise> "In case of difficulty" --colorForth website
15:41:21 <alise> [[The qwerty word 'save ' is an alias for the colorForth word (terminal space).]]
15:42:47 <alise> http://colorforth.com/user.htm Thank god, it has a manual
15:43:06 <alise> "You cannot backspace characters (they've already been packed)."
15:43:35 <cpressey> Wow, colorForth is even more... Moorey than I thought. Thank you alise for guinea-pigging it.
15:44:06 <alise> cpressey: It's a window where you press keys and the wrong keys come out, and then you press space and it says "?".
15:44:11 <alise> Sometimes, it crashes.
15:44:56 <alise> I think this thing can't run without a proper floppy with it on.
15:46:00 <cpressey> <ais523> meanwhile, esr is trying to prove to me over email that it's legal in the UK and US to relicense GPL code as BSD without permission from its author
15:46:01 <alise> Displays 7 hexagons. Center one has color at top of screen (rgb: 888). One to left has less red, to right more red. To upper left less green, to lower right more. To lower left less blue, to upper right more.
15:46:07 <alise> THIS IS THE FIRST THING I UNDERSTAND ABOUT COLORFORTH
15:46:17 <alise> HOW DO I EXIT THE EDITOR
15:47:28 <cpressey> So... esr has taken up 18th-century haberdashery, I take it?
15:48:05 <alise> chuck moore is the most idiotic visionary ever
15:48:10 <alise> idiotic, genius visionary
15:49:00 <cpressey> alise: Is this because I mentioned it last night...?
15:49:09 <alise> No, just the whole Forthy kick.
15:49:23 <alise> Turns out I'm a machine of Big Forth, not a Chuckist.
15:49:30 <alise> Or, at least, Medium-Sized Forth.
15:50:34 <cpressey> I don't think I can do Forth at all at this point. :/
15:50:54 <alise> It's no fun unless it's on the metal, anyway.
15:51:03 <alise> Which is why I'm so, so tempted to make Alise's Wonderful Forth OS Yay.
15:51:49 <alise> 14:41:17 <Gregor> .za is to South Africa as .ch is to Switzerland.
15:51:49 <alise> 14:41:26 <Gregor> In that it's not actually short for any /official/ name.
15:51:53 <alise> Very incorrect, past-Gregor!
15:52:24 <alise> "Confœderatio Helvetica" is used as the neutral form of the name "[the] Swiss Confederation", due to its multilingualness!
15:52:41 <alise> Because nobody speaks Latin, so it's equally horrible for everyone.
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15:55:17 <alise> cpressey: Actually what I'm really irritated at now is just how bloated OSes are.
15:55:42 <alise> Oberon fits a full, self-compiling, graphical environment with a web browser on a floppy. Forth could probably fit quite a bit more.
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15:59:06 <pikhq> Also, South Africa was once known as "Zuid-Afrika".
15:59:45 <pikhq> It just stopped being the official name when they acknowledged that Afrikaans had ceased to be mutually intelligible with Dutch.
16:01:34 <pikhq> And the CCTLDs come from ISO country codes. When these were set, it was still "Zuid-Afrika", rather than "Suid-Afrika".
16:02:08 <alise> pikhq: You said that at the time.
16:02:12 <alise> Well, in less detail.
16:02:17 <alise> And you didn't mention the ISO connection.
16:02:27 <alise> (So you thought it was just a weird archaicism.)
16:02:32 <alise> This was in March.
16:02:43 <pikhq> Ah, yes. Time ago.
16:12:19 <alise> 17:57:45 <coppro> ''=~('('.'?'.'{'.('`'|'%').('['^'-').('`'|'!').('`'|',').'"'.('`'^'%').('{'^'"').('`'^'%').('{'^'[').('`'^'$').('{'^')').('`'^'/').('{'^'+').('{'^'(').'"'.'}'.')')
16:16:07 <asiekierka> i'm just not on when fizzie is talking
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16:25:16 <alise> It's low-level, stack based, and all single characters! Wait, that's FALSE.
16:33:05 <alise> 12:30:34 <fungot> fax: maybe you shouldn't have mentioned your win by paradox in philosophy? bah, humbug :) don't have that
16:33:05 <fungot> alise: maybe i should put lisp-poetry in fnord furniture too much or you'll crack) has in ( mz)scheme?
16:33:11 <alise> well, it does have some philosophical issues...
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17:03:04 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: in march
17:07:19 <cpressey> Weh, fax was here? Or are you looking at really old logs, alise?
17:08:37 <cpressey> Or, if I were to believe what was just said
17:10:50 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:19:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, is this the time s?he was banned for flooding the channel with "FUCK YOU"?
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17:23:23 <cpressey> fungot: Watch the steam coming off my head.
17:23:23 <fungot> cpressey: many people prefer to avoid it whenever possible. " formal language", maybe.
17:26:03 <fizzie> In general, if there's steam coming off someone, I'd probably prefer to avoid it too.
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17:28:07 <roblo> PUTAIN DE MERDE YA QUELQUN QUI VA REPONDRE!!!
17:28:43 <roblo> ya meme pas un bot!!!
17:29:12 <roblo> jai trouv ce chan sur wikipedia
17:30:53 <roblo> can you help me for brainfuck
17:31:23 <roblo> I look for an interpreter in real time
17:31:54 <relet> an interactive one?
17:32:43 <roblo> for he can look my keybord
17:33:01 <relet> http://people.fishpool.fi/~setok/proj/tclbf/ < like this?
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17:34:56 <fizzie> Do you want , to wait until keypress or what?
17:35:59 <roblo> I want he knows when I press a key
17:36:21 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Asimov's, or something else? It's the sort of generic word I expect others have used too.
17:36:41 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, Asimov's is the only one I would use unqualified.
17:37:56 <alise> roblo: so unbuffered?
17:38:03 <alise> put termios code in
17:38:31 <fizzie> Alise a bit unportable, too.
17:40:35 <fizzie> I don't recall offhand an unbuffered sort of implementation, but possibly environments where line-buffering isn't so prevalent might have some.
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17:55:05 <oerjan> 09:11:08 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought oerjan unbanned (h(im)|(er))|(it)?
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18:02:13 <fizzie> (h(im)|(er))|(it) makes no sense anyway; | binds less tight than concatenation, so (assuming that the beginning and end are implicitly tied) that matches "him", "er" or "it", with lots of unnecessary grouped submatches. (At least in common regex syntaxes.)
18:03:16 <fizzie> Just say h(im|er)|it, or h(?:im|er)|it if you want to use the common non-capturing group thing.
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18:35:38 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, you know how you said that there was a Coq proof of Gödel's first incompleteness theorem?
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19:02:57 <fizzie> It's the Hoover'th Phantom.
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19:37:38 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> alise, you know how you said that there was a Coq proof of Gödel's first incompleteness theorem?
19:37:58 <cpressey> alise: Yes, Forth is only really fun when it's on the bare metal (or a reasonable approximation thereof). And if I'm going to code for that environment, I might as well code in assembly, most of the time.
19:37:59 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: http://r6.ca/Goedel/goedel1.html
19:38:07 <alise> cpressey: But assembly is crap.
19:38:09 <alise> Forth is wonderful.
19:38:26 <alise> A computer verified proof of Gödel’s incompleteness theorem is not new. In 1986 Shankar created a proof of the incompleteness of Z2, hereditarily finite set theory, in the Boyer-Moore theorem prover. My work is the first computer verified proof of the essential incompleteness of arithmetic. Harrison recently completed a proof in HOL Light of the essential incompleteness of Σ1-complete theories, but has not shown that any particular theory is Σ1-comple
19:38:26 <alise> te. His work will be included in the next release of HOL Light.
19:39:23 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Indeed, his work could even print out the unprovable statement, but it is huge (and would require a slight movement from Prop to Set).
19:39:30 <alise> So that's pointless.
19:39:31 <cpressey> alise: Well, depends on the arch, I suppose. 6502 > Z80 > Forth > 68000, maybe.
19:39:47 <alise> cpressey: Duuude, no way.
19:39:51 <cpressey> Actually, I don't know about Z80. Never got into it much.
19:39:55 <alise> You can't turn 6502 into the perfect language.
19:40:05 <alise> It's at the lowest level and stays there.
19:40:18 <cpressey> You don't *want* to turn 6502 into the perfect language. You want to write mad raster effects in it :)
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19:41:50 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, the important thing is that I know Coq, and I don't know the Boyer-Moore theorem prover.
19:42:06 <alise> I was merely quoting from the page.
19:42:54 <cpressey> And if I want a language to turn into the perfect language, give me Scheme! And not on bare metal, preferably! :) (I'm not entirely serious about any of this. I may yet pick up Forth in seriousness some day.)
19:43:36 <alise> cpressey: Scheme is so limited in that respect compared to Forth, though! And Scheme code is so big.
19:43:46 <alise> Besides, Scheme relies on other systems below it, a runtime etc.
19:43:51 <alise> Forth is entirely self-reliant.
19:43:54 <alise> Like an adult's language!
19:43:58 <Phantom_Hoover> How do I stop Emacs from creating those irritating #backups# when I tell it to quit without saving a file?
19:44:23 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: http://amitp.blogspot.com/2007/03/emacs-move-autosave-and-backup-files.html
19:44:30 <alise> copy the code for GNU Emacs into your .emacs
19:44:35 <alise> this will also move foo~ files elsewhere
19:44:43 <alise> and #foo# will still exist, but moved out of the way
19:45:04 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: it just goes into /tmp, dude
19:45:09 <alise> they're useful for recovering files you lose
19:45:17 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: ...
19:45:19 <alise> THE CODE makes them do that
19:45:23 <alise> Copy the code from that blog post.
19:45:27 <alise> And they will go into /tmp.
19:45:40 <alise> Incidentally, the author of that proof, Russell O'Connor, has a great blog: http://r6.ca/blog/
19:45:44 <alise> Very interesting posts.
19:46:00 <cpressey> <alise> So that's pointless. <-- wait, why? It would be kind of fun to have a laser etch it into a rock face somewhere in the Canadian shield, so that when the cockroaches eventually develop sophisticated mathematics...
19:46:23 <alise> cpressey: Because it's so big, it would never finish printing.
19:46:51 <cpressey> Bah. Oh right, Goedel encoding uses powers.\
19:47:44 <alise> ColorForth makes me weep.
19:48:04 <alise> Huh, RetroForth's homepage is hosted on TUNES.
19:48:09 <alise> Just like our logs! Buddies!
19:48:19 <ais523> on the subject of Emacs autobackups, I send them to a different directory
19:48:23 <alise> They share our log URLs!
19:48:26 <cpressey> alise: colorForth comes from a guy who proposed a one-handed, five-switch input device, iirc.
19:48:26 <alise> (but with retro instead, ofc)
19:48:39 <ais523> and the reason is to recover from an accidental rm *
19:48:39 <alise> ais523: yeah, the blog post I linked has code for GNU Emacs and XEmacs to do that
19:48:50 <alise> cpressey: actually, /those/ are a good idea
19:48:57 <alise> although you generally want more than five switches
19:49:02 <alise> (multiple directions of pushing for each finger)
19:49:08 <alise> keyboards are an ergonomic disaster, we're just used to them.
19:49:24 <ais523> alise: it depends on what you're using them for, really
19:49:24 <alise> Anyway, colorForth is awesome, I just can't use it.
19:49:34 <cpressey> Oh, but 5 is enough for 32 signals, which is, hell, MORE THAN YOU NEED (seems to be the Moorian logic.)
19:49:43 <pikhq> Cording keyers are awesome.
19:49:52 <alise> I think Moore did something horrible to cpressey.
19:50:02 <alise> pikhq: with two hands you can actually have no chording
19:50:07 <alise> since you have five buttons per hand
19:50:12 <alise> flick up, down, left, right, and press down
19:50:22 <alise> there's a device which does this, very expensive but very popular with everyone who uses it
19:50:26 <alise> fits on to your chair, your hand nests in it
19:50:26 <pikhq> alise: Yeah, but with one hand you can type with one hand.
19:50:28 <alise> has a built-in mouse too
19:50:59 <alise> pikhq: Someone's probably marketed a one-hand keyboard directly: "the Masturboard!"
19:51:01 <pikhq> And, yeah: traditional keyboards are an absolute ergonomic *nightmare*.
19:51:14 <alise> http://s3.retroforth.org/index.html Hey look, it's the site for classic RetroForth.
19:51:18 <alise> That's more like it.
19:51:29 <pikhq> Coming about soly because of the needs for traditional typewriters.
19:51:53 <cpressey> "Running on a virtual machine..." sigh.
19:52:47 <alise> cpressey: Yes, well, it's closer to real Forth than gforth.
19:52:57 <alise> Since with gforth @ and ! are extremely limited, obviously.
19:53:02 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:53:24 <alise> btw, fun slightly-insane colorForth fan: http://colorforthray.info/
19:53:31 -!- augur has joined.
19:53:32 <alise> Gene Ray, colorForth Ray...
19:54:11 <cpressey> colorForth: the official language of eye strain.
19:54:41 <augur> cpressey: colorForth: the official language of optometrists
19:55:07 <alise> I just realised something... I bet LoseThos works in QEMU.
19:55:09 <cpressey> I don't have a good reason to learn & use Forth *instead of* creating my own vaguely Forth-esque language and using that.
19:55:23 <alise> cpressey: Well, uh, the first step to using Forth is quite often "implement Forth".
19:55:41 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:55:49 <cpressey> Indeed, that would be both my problem and my solution.
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19:56:38 <pikhq> cpressey: You know that colorForth does not actually require poor color choices, right?
19:56:49 <alise> [ehird@dinky losethos]$ qemu-system-x86_64 -cdrom LTCD.ISO
19:56:50 <alise> [boot crash boot crash boot crash boot crash]
19:56:51 <alise> I think it hates me.
19:57:00 <pikhq> It merely requires *some* visual distinction. Underlining, italics, strobe-lighting, etc.
19:57:14 <alise> Okay, what insane thing does LoseThos do...
19:57:26 <alise> Nope, -vga std doesn't help.
19:57:28 <cpressey> pikhq: Well, if I want my colorForth code to be understandable by others -- aren't the default colors the standard convention for interchange?
19:57:28 <pikhq> Or just two fonts.
19:57:42 <pikhq> cpressey: That's called "syntax highlighting".
19:57:47 <alise> cpressey: Pretty much
19:57:50 <alise> But it's also dependent on the OS
19:57:53 <alise> And who the hell would use the OS?
19:58:46 <cpressey> pikhq: So what you're saying is that the VERY NAME OF THE LANGUAGE IS A LIE.
19:59:27 <alise> Let's talk about something funner.
19:59:36 <alise> Anyone wanna help me figure out why LoseThos doesn't work in QEMU?
19:59:47 <cpressey> alise: Wait, what? This is hilarious. But OK, I have to go to a meeting now anyway...
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19:59:55 <alise> cpressey: Funner, not funnier. :P
20:00:00 <alise> -m megs set virtual RAM size to megs MB [default=128]
20:00:03 <alise> Clearly it needs 4 gigs.
20:00:29 <alise> -m 2048 makes it boot more, but now it won't do anything.
20:00:48 <alise> Uh, LoseThos? Helloooo?
20:01:44 <alise> [[The name, "LoseThos", was inspired by the scene in the movie, Platoon, where
20:01:44 <alise> Elias says to Chris, "S**tcan this and this...", referring to dorky standard
20:01:44 <alise> issue equipment.]]
20:01:49 <alise> Sense making of this: none.
20:02:40 <alise> qemu-system-x86_64 -m 512 -cdrom LTCD.ISO
20:02:54 <alise> pikhq: ais523: I have LoseThos running in a window right now.
20:02:59 <alise> Wow, the titles really do scroll constantly.
20:03:38 <alise> So many things are blinking and scrolling.
20:03:44 <alise> I have a headache.
20:04:23 <alise> Is the mouse cursor meant to be this slow? Who knows?
20:04:55 <alise> it uses #include to run files from the shell
20:05:30 <augur> alise: stop taking drugs
20:06:25 <alise> I'm taking LOSETHOS
20:06:33 <alise> which is EVEN BETTER
20:07:24 <alise> it's truly beautiful
20:07:32 <alise> i mocked it from a distance
20:07:47 <alise> it's like being touched by jesus
20:09:04 <alise> like using LoseThos
20:09:38 <Phantom_Hoover> The New Testament could be made much more entertaining.
20:12:37 <ais523> I can't remember what LoseThos is
20:12:42 <ais523> although I think i knew once
20:12:56 <Phantom_Hoover> It seems to be what you get when you take the OS out of an OS.
20:13:04 <alise> ais523: the crazy 640x480x4 64-bit operating system
20:13:21 <ais523> that's an...unusual juxtaposition
20:13:26 <alise> with the loony author who spammed bizarre Christian stuff on reddit
20:13:32 <alise> like how he talked to god using his random-word outputter
20:13:33 <ais523> although I am used to 640x480x4, it's what I grew up in
20:13:35 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: yes, 16 colours
20:13:46 <alise> ais523: it's well-known for being laughed at.
20:13:51 <alise> And my GOD it FLASHES.
20:13:56 <alise> Every window name scrolls across the itle bar, constantly.
20:14:00 <alise> "MENU" flashes, constantly.
20:14:05 <alise> Every cursor in every window flashes constantly.
20:14:09 <alise> Minimised windows appear to flash constantly.
20:14:17 <alise> Woo, I crashed it.
20:14:18 <ais523> I take it it isn't just using alternate-frame dithering to get more colors?
20:14:27 <alise> ais523: it DOESN'T get more colours
20:14:30 <ais523> happy australian mailman reminders day!
20:14:33 <alise> it's legitimately flashing
20:15:05 <alise> ais523: right now i'm just trying to get it to install, which is difficult as it wants a partition
20:15:19 <alise> the auto-partitioner appears to be working
20:15:21 <Phantom_Hoover> That 300K C++ file which ostensibly implemented Battleships?
20:15:28 <alise> although it creates 3 identical losethos partitioners, for some bizarre reason
20:15:31 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: oh yes, that thing
20:15:46 <alise> ok... you've done that part... display the next part of the installer please now losethos
20:15:48 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: what did it /actually/ implement?
20:15:55 <ais523> also, how much of that 300K was encoded binary?
20:16:04 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, some weird game that intersected somewhat with Battleships.
20:16:28 <alise> wow, there's an XcolorForth, for X11
20:16:31 <Phantom_Hoover> It implemented all games of Battleships in which Player 1 wins and no illegal moves are attempted.
20:16:47 <alise> what if player 1 lost?
20:21:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Actually, not only was that Battleships game only ostensibly Battleships, it was only ostensibly C++.
20:23:23 <alise> Yay, LoseThos is actually formatting.
20:23:36 <alise> Anyone want to golf a TCP/IP stack?
20:23:48 <Phantom_Hoover> I am going to install this and try to compile that game.
20:24:33 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: It has a VMWare install mode that should work with VMWare.
20:24:48 <alise> That's it, I'm going to partition with fdisk
20:26:58 <fungot> Selected style: lovecraft (H. P. Lovecraft's writings)
20:27:04 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: published july 1922 in home brew vol. 1, no. 5, p. fnord.
20:27:08 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: lake called me later to say that the fairly round moon was " about a foot square, which must not be fancied that inspector legrasse had the least interest in fnord charlatanry, fnord, and for this honor kalos and musides. from lydia to fnord the speaker.
20:27:27 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: when fnord the events of that horrible good friday of the previous year.
20:27:44 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: written sep 1922 i lived a very normal life of work and recreation. there
20:29:46 <alise> IT IS INSTALLING!!!!!
20:29:51 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I don't have kvm either.
20:30:05 <alise> He thinks he talks to God with his program that outputs random words.
20:30:13 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Do you want to know how to install it with QEMU?
20:30:18 <alise> I can give you complete instructions.
20:30:25 <alise> (It's not easy if you don't know how.)
20:30:30 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I assume it requires 64-bit virtualisation in software.
20:30:37 <alise> Just install QEMU.
20:30:47 <alise> Yes; it's fast enough.
20:30:51 <alise> But it's more than that.
20:30:56 <alise> That's not the installation process.
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20:33:05 <alise> It's his mega-super C-alike.
20:33:44 <alise> Or good OS design.
20:34:25 <Phantom_Hoover> But what if you want your programs to screw around with the contents of 0x0? Inferior OSes lack this feature!
20:35:32 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: http://pastie.org/1129702.txt?key=q8chaljltwsiclmbchw3cq
20:35:38 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: How to install and run LoseThos using QEMU.
20:36:00 <alise> The mouse is so slow it isn't funny.
20:36:29 <pikhq> void *i = NULL;while(*i++=*NULL);
20:36:52 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Pah, colorForth can do that!
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20:40:07 <pikhq> I'm pretty sure LoseThos has malloc.
20:40:14 <pikhq> With a single heap, mind.
20:40:58 <alise> It's probably MemAlloc or something.
20:41:22 <alise> I'm surprised the guy actually managed to code something this, you know, "polished".
20:41:37 <alise> It doesn't randomly crash or anything, it has a ton of formatted debugging output, it has an automatic installer...
20:41:42 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Did you follow my instructions?
20:41:45 <alise> Or is this post-install?
20:41:54 <alise> "You can adjust the mouse movement rate" YES PLEASE
20:42:00 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Follow my instructions and don't do anything else, and it'll work fine.
20:42:11 <alise> The HD selection part is a bit difficult. Pay attention there.
20:42:16 <alise> I ran into problems with it.
20:42:25 <alise> YES I GOT RID OF WORDSTAT
20:42:28 <alise> Worst completion system ever
20:42:47 <alise> "Adjust these to set mouse move scale" yes plz ^_^
20:44:45 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: this is the most amazing thing ever
20:44:53 <alise> it's like i finally understand life
20:45:17 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: did you do my fdisk stuff properly?
20:45:50 <alise> To create a new partition.
20:45:54 <alise> It's the command do.
20:47:01 <alise> You are using Linux, right?
20:47:15 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: OK, wait.
20:47:24 <alise> Do the dd thing again, then run fdisk hd and tell me what it outputs.
20:47:31 <alise> My fdisk might be different to yours.
20:47:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Device contains neither a valid DOS partition table, nor Sun, SGI or OSF disklabel
20:47:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Building a new DOS disklabel with disk identifier 0xc009eb3c.
20:47:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Changes will remain in memory only, until you decide to write them.
20:47:59 <Phantom_Hoover> After that, of course, the previous content won't be recoverable.
20:47:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Warning: invalid flag 0x0000 of partition table 4 will be corrected by w(rite)
20:48:04 <Phantom_Hoover> WARNING: DOS-compatible mode is deprecated. It's strongly recommended to
20:48:06 <Phantom_Hoover> switch off the mode (command 'c') and change display units to
20:48:18 <alise> That's ok, that's absolutely fine.
20:48:26 <alise> Well, and then enter.
20:48:37 <alise> Then press enter until you're back at the Command prompt.
20:48:42 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Howso?
20:51:45 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: How about I give you my fdisk binary? :P
20:51:52 <alise> You're on 64-bit, yes?
20:52:16 <alise> LoseThos is well worth it, btw.
20:52:20 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: http://filebin.ca/ztskmb/fdisk
20:53:03 <alise> fdisk (util-linux-ng 2.18)
20:53:07 <alise> Mine's less sucky. Ha.
20:53:11 <alise> The binary should work.
20:54:05 <alise> Wowww using this thing is such a crapshoot.
20:56:13 <alise> I forgot that in my guide.
20:56:45 <alise> http://pastie.org/1129751.txt?key=sia4cjdcp4hkckxdpnaa Guide with p in it.
20:57:23 <alise> Wow, apparently I have multiple accounts now.
20:58:05 <alise> This is physically painful to use.
21:02:58 <alise> oklo is insane but in a nice way
21:03:00 <alise> this guy is just insane.
21:04:37 <cpressey> Jeez, one meeting and the scrollback size doubles.
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21:05:39 <Phantom_Hoover> And I was doing something vaguely productive before you mentioned this.
21:06:05 <Phantom_Hoover> "* 64-bit compiler/assembler. Nothing is "interpreted.""
21:06:59 <alise> Like SBCL, only crazy.
21:07:08 <alise> http://www.reddit.com/user/losethos
21:07:12 <alise> dunno where the God program is
21:07:15 <alise> he might have got banned
21:07:56 <Phantom_Hoover> http://forum.osdev.org/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=18636 ← ahahaha.
21:08:35 <alise> ld: i386 architecture of input file `color.o' is incompatible with i386:x86-64 output
21:08:40 <alise> worst binary format EVER
21:09:07 <Phantom_Hoover> But some of his insanity touches slightly on our insanity...
21:09:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Like everything running in ring 0, and the JITing, and the 64-bitness.
21:10:06 <alise> Yeah -- I bet he likes food, and breathing too.
21:10:21 <alise> But that doesn't mean those things are bad. He woefully misapplies all the things you listed.
21:10:24 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:10:32 <cpressey> Wait, so, the shell is this CPZ language, and what you enter is compiled?
21:10:45 <alise> Like Forth, only insane.
21:11:25 <cpressey> OK, insane but in a non-wonderful fashion.
21:11:53 <cpressey> I dunno, someone who intentionally designs a GUI with constant blinking.
21:12:08 <cpressey> Probably has his ocular nerves wired up in a special way.
21:12:27 <cpressey> Sounds pretty wonderful to me, for some value of wonderful.
21:14:16 <cpressey> I need to add a "crackpot" tag to my site and put the LoseThos and Laws of Form links under it.
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21:15:40 -!- yorick has changed nick to Guest4213.
21:15:54 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, you know. Laws of Form.
21:16:03 -!- Guest4213 has quit (Changing host).
21:16:04 -!- Guest4213 has joined.
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21:16:40 <alise> One system crash just OBLITERATED my /usr/share/man/man3.
21:16:42 <alise> It is not there any more.
21:17:01 <alise> /lost+found is now very well-populated.
21:17:04 -!- Guest4213 has changed nick to yorick.
21:17:16 <alise> I don't know; this program must have a destroy_all_files() function somewhere!
21:17:21 <alise> (I ran it as root.)
21:17:23 <cpressey> I am LoseThos. Fear me! I shall eat your stdlib manpages.
21:17:36 <alise> cpressey: Oh dear God.
21:18:48 <alise> he claims to have proved several things
21:18:51 <alise> such as 4ct, riemann
21:18:57 <alise> and also that the computer proof of 4ct is wrong
21:19:39 <alise> ... oh dear; something appears to have forgotten that I disabled that god damn PC speaker.
21:19:52 <cpressey> alise: I want to categorize it and LoseThose under "kook", except to add a "kook" tag to my site, I should really have at least one "kook" project of my own. Maybe N'DCNC.
21:20:38 <cpressey> 'Twas my entry for the Essies one year, when that contest was still a-running.
21:21:15 <fizzie> The National Do Call, Nocturnally Call registry.
21:21:16 <alise> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 18 Aug 10 11:49 I465196.RCN -> CMS_get0_type.3.gz
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21:21:34 <alise> man displays these pages.
21:22:56 <alise> The power of this one program, however, suggests something awesome.
21:23:15 <alise> We could make a hosted-in-Linux bootloader, like LOADLIN in the days of yore (DOS program that booted Linux).
21:23:25 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: The program is a random program that, when ran as root, crashed my system.
21:23:29 <alise> This is my local man.
21:23:40 <alise> It displays the files in /lost+found, which once were in /usr/share/man/man3.
21:23:44 <alise> Now they have lost their dignity and filenames.
21:24:06 <alise> XcolorForth; it's meant to run colorForth from Linux.
21:24:14 <alise> I guess it really hates 64-bit machines.
21:24:34 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
21:25:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Wow, the WP article on the Laws of Form seems to be biased crap.
21:26:16 <Phantom_Hoover> "Ostensibly a work of formal mathematics and philosophy, LoF became something of a cult classic, praised in the Whole Earth Catalog. Those who agree point to LoF as embodying an enigmatic "mathematics of consciousness," its algebraic symbolism capturing an (perhaps even the) implicit root of cognition: the ability to distinguish. LoF argues that the pa (primary algebra) reveals striking connections among log
21:26:17 <Phantom_Hoover> ic, Boolean algebra, and arithmetic, and the philosophy of language and mind."
21:27:04 <cpressey> alise: Was going to say some crap about writing my own OS in Forth. Really, just crap though.
21:27:12 <alise> cpressey: No, no, do say.
21:27:43 <alise> I wonder if a working TCP/IP stack can be stuffed into less than a page of Forth. I bet yes.
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21:28:33 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, cpressey, can one of you please look at WP's article on LoF and tell me if it's completely nuts.
21:29:02 <cpressey> 1 Write own Forthoid in Forth 2 Write kernel in Forthoid 3 Write VM for Forthoid in Forthoid to support virtualization?
21:29:05 <alise> It's nuts, but nobody intelligent cares enough to critique it, so you can't really make it more neutral without just cutting out parts of the article, which the fans will counter as bias.
21:29:20 <alise> cpressey: You do realise 90% of writing Forth is extending it to become a Forthoid?
21:29:31 <cpressey> alise: I've seen a TCP/IP stack in a few screens of colorForth... somewhere.
21:29:41 <cpressey> alise: Yes, of course. You do remember I said "crap"?
21:29:49 <alise> I mean, words are powerful; defining one can be defining a whole new language feature. And with their ability to read the input stream and whatnot, they can literally be that.
21:30:29 <alise> My plan would basically be: 1. Write a Forth base in assembly. 2. Write the rest of the Forth in Forth. 3. Write drivers. 4. Write an interface.
21:30:41 <alise> Which isn't the most exciting plan, but it'd definitely be fun.
21:30:59 <alise> MenuetOS can go suck my Forth.
21:31:04 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
21:31:09 <alise> (Actually, I'm incredibly envious of the MenuetOS author. Takes skill.)
21:31:21 <alise> You could argue that it's a better OS than Linux!
21:32:02 <fizzie> Re hosted-on-Linux loaders, there's the kexec infrastructure that can do it with at least semblance of cleanliness; I think I've seen at least some experiments on loading something else than a regular Linux kernel with it.
21:32:41 <alise> Both 32 and 64-bit support, written entirely in assembly, full WIMP GUI with alpha transparency (e.g. on the title bars), USB support, control panels, even window morphing effects (http://www.menuetos.net/086c.png), DVD/MP3 players, FASM, Quake, Doom, digital TV support somehow, a web browser...
21:32:48 <alise> Entirely in assembly!
21:33:07 <alise> Oh yeah, and it fits on a floppy.
21:33:41 <fizzie> (Of course kexec trickery might not lead to the evaporation of your stdlib manpages, so there's that downside to consider.)
21:34:47 <alise> fizzie: I was thinking the more awesome way: make the kernel commit suicide (i.e. disable multitasking so you get full control), load your OS into where the kernel was (or, really, wherever it has to start), jump there.
21:34:53 <alise> Possibly zero out the kernel if you have to.
21:35:10 <alise> The fun bit there, of course, is making the kernel commit suicide.
21:36:28 <fizzie> I'm not sure how you get to supervisor mode from userland code without doing something very nonstandard.
21:36:53 <fizzie> Of course if you're in it for the awesome, it's a different matter.
21:37:19 <alise> fizzie: You're root, so you can crash the system, right?
21:37:22 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
21:37:27 <alise> So you can basically do whatever the fuck you want to memory.
21:37:36 <alise> no, that was to fizzie
21:37:42 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: So you can stop it switching out your task.
21:37:49 <alise> Other OSes kind of like to be the only guy in town.
21:37:52 <alise> Also, that's the fun part.
21:38:12 <alise> LOADLIN had it easy, since there was no real DOS kernel; it was basically a big library.
21:38:18 <Phantom_Hoover> This is getting near that CoreWars fanfic I want written.
21:39:21 <fizzie> I don't think a uid 0 process is still supposed to be able to switch processor protection levels. I'm sure you *can*, it just sounds very brittle, maybe involving the direct-physical-memory device nodes. (are those even still there and unfiltered?)
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21:39:30 <fizzie> It's just that kexec is explicitly designed for handing control over. (How boring!)
21:39:44 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: CoreWars slash!
21:39:48 <alise> fizzie: But it's so UNGENERAL.
21:39:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, a uid 0 process can fiddle with the kernel's memory, can't it?
21:39:53 <alise> How can I load LoseThos from it?
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21:40:42 <fizzie> It's not ungeneral; just write a bit of code that looks kernely enough that kexec can jump into it; it will start in kernel-mode with full access to anything.
21:41:09 <alise> See, the kernelly enough bit is the issue!
21:41:20 <alise> You could make it inject a DRIVER.
21:41:23 <alise> Those run in the KERNEL, see.
21:41:28 <alise> You can see where I'm going with this.
21:41:38 <alise> Kernel-raping drivers!
21:41:50 <fizzie> Yes, but why! I no get it.
21:42:26 <fizzie> The kernelly-enough wrapper needs to be a few hundred bytes, it can then load your LoseThos just fine.
21:42:39 <fizzie> There's kexec-loader, I think it can boot any multiboot-standard-compliant image with kexec.
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21:43:26 <alise> fizzie: We want to load ARBITRARY CODE without succumbing to the kernel's EVIL KEXEC DEMANDS.
21:43:29 <fizzie> Yes, I can see it's more about cruelty than pragmatism with you!
21:43:31 <alise> MULTIBOOT? FUCK MULTIBOOT
21:43:36 <alise> We should be able to LOAD bootloaders from this
21:43:42 <alise> It should just execute RAW code
21:44:18 <alise> You could just write memory directly, Phantom_Hoover.
21:44:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, I though this was going to be something like "sudo depose-kernel"!
21:44:48 <fizzie> No, you can't. UID-0 processes aren't exempt from memory access protections.
21:45:06 <Vorpal> <alise> fizzie: We want to load ARBITRARY CODE without succumbing to the kernel's EVIL KEXEC DEMANDS. <-- what demands?
21:45:13 <fizzie> I think they added some dev-kmem filters that are possibly the default now.
21:45:34 <fizzie> Vorpal: There's the loading address, and maybe some metadata in the image.
21:46:01 <Vorpal> <fizzie> I don't think a uid 0 process is still supposed to be able to switch processor protection levels. I'm sure you *can*, it just sounds very brittle, maybe involving the direct-physical-memory device nodes. (are those even still there and unfiltered?) <-- they are there, but: /dev/kmem is off by default, /dev/mem is filtered to pci config space and bios stuff by default iirc
21:46:22 <Vorpal> of course you could just modprobe a module that let you do it
21:46:39 <fizzie> A suicidal driver is perhaps an appropriate method, yes.
21:47:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, I still fail to see what is wrong with kexec. The docs says it could load something else than linux if you wanted
21:47:26 <fizzie> Or: find a module with an exploitable bug. It's like jailbreaking your own computer!
21:47:38 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yeah not having the replay file system logs when booting next time is boring
21:47:51 <Vorpal> or having the new OS confused by already up-and-running hardware
21:47:57 <fizzie> Vorpal: That's what I said, but it wasn't the point here.
21:48:28 <fizzie> The point here is perversity for the sake of it, if I've understood right.
21:48:58 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so it can cleanly umount my ext4 and jfs file systems on top of lvm2 on top of software RAID 1?
21:49:12 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, if your solution doesn't do that then it fails
21:49:25 <fizzie> How did your stdlib-man-page-eating tool do its dirty trick, by the way?
21:50:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, it ignores these holdovers from the tyranny of the previous kernel.
21:50:07 <fizzie> To alise; I always forget to direct.
21:50:24 <alise> fizzie: I don't know; it loaded some .s.
21:50:27 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, okay now you are just being absurdly and stupidly silly
21:50:39 <alise> fizzie: http://colorforthray.info/XcolorForth.tar.gz
21:50:41 <alise> fizzie: Inspect it yourself.
21:50:51 <alise> (If you manage to get it compiled and aren't on 32-bit, it will eat your manpages.)
21:51:11 <Vorpal> alise, if anything loading a module is even more restricted in format than loading a kernel with kexec!
21:51:22 <alise> <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yeah not having the replay file system logs when booting next time is boring ;; shut down file stuff beforehand
21:51:47 <fizzie> I'll look at it when not on the phone.
21:51:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, general idea: module gets ring 0, kills kernel, replaces it with its own code.
21:52:26 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yes but the module format is even more restricted than kexec
21:52:38 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so your whole reasoning is completely flawed
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21:53:02 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so does a kexec image
21:53:09 <alise> Vorpal: shut the fuck up
21:53:11 <alise> we don't want to do kexec
21:53:36 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, but with a module you need to hook it up to the linux kernel interface
21:53:41 <Vorpal> or it won't load or work
21:53:56 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, with a kexec image you are free from such restraints
21:54:23 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, thus your argument about freedom is flawed
21:54:27 -!- Phantom_Hoover has left (?).
21:54:33 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I understand the idea but your argument *for* it is flawed
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21:54:37 <Vorpal> which are quite different things
21:54:43 <Vorpal> * Phantom_Hoover (~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl29-2-0-cust326.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com) has left #esoteric ("Leaving")
21:54:43 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I understand the idea but your argument *for* it is flawed
21:55:10 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, repasted the only line sent
21:56:13 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, okay. Your argument for not doing so is still flawed
21:56:18 <Vorpal> besides the module thing is old
21:56:23 <Vorpal> seen it implemented once before
21:56:30 <Vorpal> was as a hack against 2.4 kerne
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21:56:45 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so what you are now doing is fairly boring
21:57:40 <Vorpal> alise, besides your request for hypothetical software timed out today.
21:58:01 <cpressey> <alise> My plan would basically be: 1. Write a Forth base in assembly. 2. Write the rest of the Forth in Forth. 3. Write drivers. 4. Write an interface. <-- That is less of dumbness. Actually my idea was both stupider and cooler than what I said. It was kind of "want to write my own OS" plus "Oh, I already have, I just never finished it", and such a collision seems to have sparked... ideas.
21:58:21 <alise> Vorpal: our argument is WE DON'T WANT TO use kexec
21:58:30 <cpressey> Oh funt, what are we talking about now.
21:58:38 <Vorpal> alise, that is however no reason
21:58:53 <alise> And we don't need you telling us so because it's fucking obvious.
21:58:57 <Vorpal> alise, and your hack has been done before
21:58:58 <alise> Nothing done in this channel has much of a reason.
21:59:18 <alise> Yeah, I like how you conspicuously forgot to tell us that before.
21:59:53 <Vorpal> alise, anyway your hypothetical request for hypothetical software timed out today due to lack of hypothetical initiating of the hypothetical file transfer
22:00:04 <alise> I'll just get it off torrents.
22:00:06 <cpressey> omg there is YouTube of LoseThos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9i0pMO697Zk and TERRIBLE MUSIC
22:00:07 <alise> You have told me three times already.
22:00:23 <alise> cpressey: God generated it
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22:00:54 <alise> This thing is actually a complex piece with multiple time signatures and tempos
22:00:56 <alise> You just can't tell.
22:01:07 <cpressey> I CAN"T HEAR THE MUSIC FOR ALL THE BEEPING
22:01:17 <alise> It's experimental.
22:01:21 <alise> LOL @ the sad face
22:01:23 <alise> that just appeared
22:01:27 <cpressey> Rendered with a human hand on a violin, I admit, it could be... something.
22:01:28 <alise> Is he typing lyrics
22:01:28 <Vorpal> alise, why do you want to load LoseThos like that btw?
22:01:31 <alise> Or just typing about sins
22:01:42 <alise> No, it's lyrics. Wow.
22:01:47 <cpressey> But as it stands, uh, God has no rhythm.
22:01:54 <alise> Vorpal: Uhh, it was just an example of an OS that is compatible with no standard.
22:02:02 <alise> cpressey: Read the lyrics
22:02:17 <alise> That may just be my favourite video ever.
22:02:37 <Vorpal> <cpressey> I CAN"T HEAR THE MUSIC FOR ALL THE BEEPING <-- cpressey++
22:03:17 <Vorpal> <cpressey> Rendered with a human hand on a violin, I admit, it could be... something. <-- doubt even that would salvage it... It seems to lack a proper melody
22:04:15 <cpressey> This may be a fizzie question, or rather trivial for fizzie maybe, but: In unreal mode, I can still change CS, right? And loading a value into CS is effectively a jump?
22:05:01 <alise> fizzie: the Tome of all Knowledge.
22:05:25 <Vorpal> cpressey, btw that youtube thingy.... Why use that OS for that song
22:06:14 <Vorpal> I'm sure it would be trivial to generate it under most other OSes that support the pc speaker (which seems to be what was used)
22:07:08 <alise> Because he is LoseThos...
22:07:16 <cpressey> Vorpal: Because that OS is AWESOME.
22:07:16 <alise> Besides, it's the only OS which can connect to God
22:07:25 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, from my understanding of the NASM manual, changing CS directly is only easily possible through black magic on the 8086.
22:07:28 <Vorpal> right, so he is a OS coding religious nutjob
22:07:31 <alise> "Why would LoseThos use LoseThos for X?" "Uhhh, I dunno lol"
22:07:39 <alise> Vorpal: He's a nutjob even for the religious.
22:08:08 <Vorpal> alise, well I suspected he was a nutjob for each half of that independently...
22:08:28 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Sure you're not thinking of IP?
22:08:59 <Phantom_Hoover> But the detailed appendix to the NASM manual has been removed.
22:09:02 <Vorpal> though it does take a bit of skill to code any OS. So... a somewhat smart (in at least one area) nutjob
22:09:56 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Well I know I've loaded *from* CS. OK, I realize, not at all the same thing.
22:10:11 <cpressey> Main:movax, cs; find DATA segment
22:10:15 <pikhq> Vorpal: Yes, he's obviously intelligent. He's also fucking nuts.
22:10:28 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, I'm pretty sure mov cs doesn't work, but pop cs worked on the 8086.
22:10:41 <Vorpal> pikhq, indeed. I'm more used to nutjobs like that also being fairly stupid
22:10:53 <Phantom_Hoover> It has never done so on any subsequent processor, though.
22:10:55 <Vorpal> pikhq, or at least acting fairly stupid in all areas
22:11:24 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Hm. How do you execute code in another segment, then?
22:12:23 <cpressey> Oh, a far jump will update CS too? OK, that actually... makes sense.
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22:13:29 <cpressey> (You don't run into this when everything you write you try to fit into 512 bytes.)
22:15:09 <cpressey> Was thinking about "writing my own OS", thinking now about extending BefOS instead. Well, sort of.
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22:16:09 <cpressey> Each of the Befunge-93 instructions can be implemented in less than 256 bytes of 80[2?]86 code -- surely.
22:17:37 <cpressey> So, in each 2K page you can implement 4 instructions (in inline machine code), and the whole thing fits in one 64K segment. The kernel (fetch-execute loop) runs in another segment and does far calls into these pages.
22:19:13 <alise> BefOS is rubbish :|
22:19:39 <cpressey> alise: Thus explaining the presence of a desire to make it ... not rubbish.
22:19:56 <alise> cpressey: I'd say a Befunge-93 instruction would be more like 50 bytes, not 256.
22:20:18 <fizzie> This is a bit late, but yes, I think you keep an unreal-mode DS even if you change CS. (Segment register changes were expensive, though, IIRC.)
22:21:03 <cpressey> alise: I guess 128 bytes per inst would still be plenty, and would let the interpreter be in the same segment.
22:21:33 <cpressey> If some inst really does need more, it can jump to some "spare" slot at the end.
22:21:42 <alise> cpressey: Really? The instructions are just things like +, /, p, g, ...
22:21:48 <alise> I can't imagine any of them being more than a few bytes, actually.
22:21:56 <alise> Apart from bounds checking, which would be minimal.
22:22:36 <alise> Jump elsewhere for it?
22:22:44 <alise> IO is slow anyway, after all.
22:23:22 <cpressey> alise: They're not complex. But the thing is, here... you could modify them. Install some machine code in the slot for Z or chr(20), and then it's an instruction.
22:24:24 <cpressey> In fact, not at all sure this would be befunge anymore.
22:24:40 <cpressey> Although, it's a place to start.
22:26:26 <Vorpal> pikhq, hm I can't actually think of any other *intelligent* religious nutjob in modern times
22:28:06 <Vorpal> <cpressey> Was thinking about "writing my own OS", thinking now about extending BefOS instead. Well, sort of. <-- bef as in befunge?
22:28:16 <Vorpal> cpressey, is there any link to that?
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22:28:35 <Vorpal> cpressey, but is it bef as in befunge?
22:28:51 <Vorpal> cpressey, if so it sounds awesome
22:28:53 <cpressey> Vorpal: Perhaps you should keep reading the log?
22:29:07 <Vorpal> cpressey, oh excellent idea
22:29:55 <cpressey> Vorpal: It's not an idea. I mean, it's been done. By me. And it sucks. Because it was basically just an extended experiment in baremetal assembly coding on my part.
22:30:24 <Vorpal> cpressey, I meant reading the log was an excellent idea
22:31:44 <Vorpal> cpressey, and befOS sounds awesome too
22:32:13 <Vorpal> cpressey, why do it in real mode
22:32:28 <Vorpal> cpressey, you wouldn't have the CS problem if you just went into protected mdoe
22:32:50 <cpressey> Because unreal mode is AWESOME.
22:33:02 <Vorpal> cpressey, how so? I don't remember the details for i
22:33:19 <fizzie> Gaa, the misunderstandings! I somehow thought that this Xcolorforth actually did the trick of kernel hijinks; but it doesn't, it just puts the code into the process' memory space, and emulates a framebuffer with SDL. I mean, that's what is sensible, I just had it somehow confabulated it with the bootloader discussion.
22:34:50 <alise> fizzie: Yes; if you're on 32-bit, it /should/ work.
22:34:57 <alise> Although I have no idea what the fuck happens to Linux afterwards.
22:35:10 <cpressey> There appears to be a befos.com. "Admin Organization: BefOS". Should I be frightened?
22:35:38 <fizzie> Vorpal: You flip to protected mode, set DS selectors so that you have a flat 32-bit memory, then go back to real mode. As long as you don't touch the DS, the limits won't be reset, and you have the unreal mode.
22:36:30 <cpressey> Also, zzo38's OS uses unreal mode. Just more evidence that it is AWESOME.
22:36:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, and why was that useful?
22:36:41 <Vorpal> cpressey, zzo made an OS?
22:36:59 <fizzie> alise: I don't think anything happens to Linux afterwards. I mean, it's a normal process that does video and keyboard stuff with SDL, and runs code inside its own address space; nothing abnormal about that.
22:37:00 <cpressey> Vorpal: You should ask me more questions like that.
22:37:14 <alise> fizzie: ColorForth does rather more than run code inside its own address space, last I checked.
22:37:19 <alise> Such as direct hardware access.
22:37:47 <fizzie> alise: Well, Xcolorforth certainly won't do direct hardware access. It's not even located at 0.
22:38:05 <alise> fizzie: I thought color.s does.
22:38:09 <alise> Anyway, it has to be run as root otherwise nothing happens.
22:38:11 <alise> That's all I know.
22:38:17 <alise> When you run it as root, [boom]
22:38:28 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Unreal is more likely to, being older. :P
22:39:08 <fizzie> Well, according to README it at least behaves perfectly responsibly. I haven't really looked closely; maybe I'll take a peek tomorrow.
22:40:22 <Vorpal> cpressey, what exactly makes unreal mode better than protected mode?
22:41:47 <cpressey> Vorpal: Flat (non-segmented) access to the 32-bit address space.
22:42:04 <Vorpal> cpressey, right, protected mode has that too
22:42:22 <Vorpal> unless I completely misremember
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22:42:31 <cpressey> That is what makes it more desirable to me. Not better.
22:42:34 <Vorpal> you can set up the segments so that they essentially don't matter
22:42:39 <cpressey> It would be equally valid to say that I like the name.
22:42:42 <alise> Do what LoseThos does! Set up paging to map directly to memory! HOORAY
22:45:10 <cpressey> "It was used by many computer games in the 1990 to 1995 time frame, since it allowed programmers to use more memory than in real mode, which is restricted to 1 MB (640 KB usable on IBM PC-compatible machines), but still access the DOS operating system, which doesn't work in protected mode."
22:45:14 <fizzie> Vorpal: One tangible benefit is that in unreal mode, you can still (with some care) keep calling DOS services for filesystem/IO/what...
22:45:29 <fizzie> Gah! Stop ruining my comments!
22:45:45 <cpressey> Not that I'd be running this code under DOS or anything mind you...
22:46:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, why can't you do the same thing as whatever vm86 does for calling DOS services?
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22:47:48 <fizzie> Doesn't it go to the virtual-8086 mode?
22:48:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, is that not enough?
22:48:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm... what does stuff like djgpp (sp?) do?
22:48:30 <fizzie> It involves basically switching to real mode and back every time you need something from DOS.
22:48:41 <Vorpal> presumably it somehow needs to access the DOS fs
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22:49:26 <fizzie> It does DPMI, and the DPMI implementation involves a lot of that mode-switching, I believe.
22:51:16 <fizzie> Real protected mode with dos4gw and other "dos extenders" did end up being whap people did; I think unreal mode was used more before DPMI implementations were available.
22:52:15 <fizzie> It's a lot more complicated to call DOS that way. Probably also slower. (But then again, the DOS routines are bound to be slow too.)
22:52:51 <fizzie> DJGPP in particular uses CWSDPMI, IIRC.
22:58:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, couldn't it implement it's own FAT driver?
22:59:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, even my camera implements fat32, and back then you only had to do fat12 and fat16
22:59:24 <fizzie> And IDE drivers, too? You can't call into BIOS from protected mode either.
23:00:20 <fizzie> Anyway, no, it couldn't implement it's own FAT driver, because DOS would be very confused if the "mounted" disk would magically have its blocks changed.
23:00:22 <cpressey> Hey, now that's an actual reason. I do make lots of BIOS calls.
23:00:40 <cpressey> (*reason to not use protected mode in BefOS or whatever it is.)
23:03:01 <Vorpal> hm I recently saw a quite mad DSP (forgot brand and model) where CHAR_BIT was 128. That seems quite large even for a DSP to me
23:03:21 <fizzie> If you're feeling lucky (or just terminally brave), you might even manage to get some "write a big block into ds:di" interrupt services to directly write to non-low memory, if you just load full esi with a wide address (or does that always need some prefix bytes in real mode?); with the mode-flipping, you'd have to read into buffer, then copy from there to high memory.
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23:05:19 <cpressey> Oh, also a reason: I tried playing around with the EMS and XMS interfaces (BIOS interrupts) and found they sucked.
23:05:35 <Vorpal> how did those emm386 and himem.sys things of DOS work?
23:05:52 <Vorpal> wasn't there one doing a window into higher memory?
23:05:57 <fizzie> TI C64x has a 256-bit wide memory bus for code; it reads and executes in packets of eight instructions. But the data memory is word-addressable with 16-bit words, so I would guess it defines CHAR_BIT to either 16 or 8 (faked&.
23:06:24 <fizzie> And don't go to extended/expanded memory things; that way lies madness.
23:06:40 <Vorpal> fizzie, just wondering how it worked
23:07:02 <Vorpal> fizzie, the window into higher memory stuff sounds like it would need an MMU
23:07:12 <Vorpal> not available in real mode afaik
23:07:15 <fizzie> EMS in particular was intended originally for hardware memory extensions that aren't in the usual memory bus.
23:07:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, ah interesting
23:07:33 <fizzie> It doesn't need a MMU, it just involves a lot of copying. :p
23:07:54 <fizzie> (On a real hardware EMS implementation, it doesn't copy so much.)
23:08:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, how can it access the higher memory to copy from/to it?
23:08:23 <Vorpal> it goes into protected mode every now and then?
23:09:30 <fizzie> I guess it would have to, when it's emulated using regular processor-addressible memory.
23:10:18 <fizzie> Since you just can't get more than 20 address bits out of the x86's addressing lines without skipping to protected mode, I would think.
23:12:01 <fizzie> XMS is just calling HIMEM.SYS's routines via an interrupt; it would then copy bytes in-between low memory used by the app, and high memory.
23:13:01 <fizzie> While EMS involves EMM386 faking a "expanded memory" hardware thing, on a 386 or better.
23:18:11 <fizzie> Since the EMS hardware would map memory pages somewhere in the 640k .. 1M range, I think that would involve some duplicate copying; first the app would copy from <640k to there, and then EMM386 would copy to high memory to fake memory-page swapping. Unless that latter part could be faked with the paging hardware, but I'm not sure if that's a reasonable approach. I do recall vague "EMS is SO SLOW" complaints.
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23:21:35 <fizzie> On a protected-mode OS which runs DOS and DOS apps in the virtual-8086 mode, it would of course be faster, since the paging system could be used to do the, um, paging.
23:21:50 <fizzie> As fascinating as the bizarro-city x86 is, I think I really need sleep now.
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23:48:12 <alise> SyntaxError: error in your syntax
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