00:20:08 <itidus20> the problem with porting is that you don't do any design
00:22:33 <itidus20> the word design here is really terrible, but i mean it as, for instance, cat is a design
00:23:27 <itidus20> and then someone can be asked to port cat
00:27:31 <itidus20> ang.wikipedia.org = nglisc :-s
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01:04:55 <itidus20> it's dubious how many blizzard games have anglo-saxon wikipedia pages
01:12:30 <itidus20> ah.. the one guy created 9 pages about blizzard, and also created the category
01:18:38 <itidus20> humm.. ok he created the video games category too, so it's all very boring
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01:46:54 <quintopia> elliott: what kind of food. dont have money.
01:49:22 * oerjan hands quintopia some delicious poison for free
01:50:09 <quintopia> poison? i have decided that edible is more important than good
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03:02:52 <itidus20> and you are to drink the milk from a ceramic mug, and rip off pieces of the bread with your bare hands
03:03:15 * oerjan recalls when he used to browse the reddit frontpage and r/all, there were sometimes posts about how to get enough food with very little money
03:03:45 <itidus20> quintopia's critereon are pretty lousy
03:04:53 <elliott> they're a bit nutty, I think :P
03:05:05 <oerjan> was about to link it :P
03:05:11 <itidus20> focus on optimizing sources of nutrients such as protein and carbohydrates, as well as vitamins and minerals
03:05:32 <itidus20> edible and good is for the rich
03:05:42 <oerjan> http://www.reddit.com/r/Frugal/comments/u13qa/we_rfrugal_week_1_frugal_food/ was linked in the sidebar
03:07:28 <itidus20> "Some people value time over money, and others money over time" hmm thats one way of putting it, another way of putting it is that employed people have less time and more money, and vice versa
03:07:44 <oerjan> from there you can find http://www.reddit.com/r/budgetfood
03:08:02 <itidus20> except some people on welfare have a good life and some people on welfare do not
03:08:56 <itidus20> and, the reason for _that_ is that some people on welfare have parasites around them
03:09:08 <oerjan> elliott: although i wasn't originally thinking so much about r/frugal as about "help i only have $NN for the next 3 weeks how can i survive?"
03:09:18 <oerjan> (approximate title there)
03:10:34 <itidus20> in other words, valuing time over money is more of a function of circumstances than an exercize in free will
03:12:07 <itidus20> what i really mean is that, some poeple have more time than money, and others have more money than time
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03:12:35 <itidus20> and they "value" that which they have less of
03:16:42 <elliott> o'reilly have published a book on dwarf fortress
03:16:45 <elliott> ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
03:17:12 <elliott> http://shop.oreilly.com/product/0636920022565.do
03:17:18 <monqy> whhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat
03:17:49 <elliott> but i think i'm going to have to buy it so i can point to the turning point in civilisation in the future when we all live in houses made out of cellophane and breathe glass and mate with antennae
03:18:09 <elliott> @ask Phantom_Hoover http://shop.oreilly.com/product/0636920022565.do ???????????????
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03:26:14 <itidus20> i found this while looking up that http://i37.fastpic.ru/big/2012/0530/c2/04e811128cee4d89747f9621a5756fc2.jpeg
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03:44:24 <tswett> elliott: your name is now Robert J! Lake. As such, you are no longer my baby nephew.
03:45:19 <tswett> Okay, so. This language in which all computation is carried out via rounding errors.
03:46:08 <tswett> I think a program should consists of a list of instructions that are looped through forever. The program will have access to an arbitrary but finite number of variables each capable of holding an arbitrary non-negative integer.
03:46:29 <tswett> Every variable is initialized to 1.
03:47:38 <tswett> There are three instructions: "add Y to X", "multiply X by 2^(Y/3) and round", and "divide X by 2^(Y/3) and round".
03:49:25 <tswett> It might be Turing-complete. I have no idea how one would go about proving it either way.
03:50:03 <tswett> Also, the name of a variable must consist entirely of numerals, and the first of these cannot be 0.
03:53:21 <tswett> I guess we'll make that "round down", to avoid ambiguity.
03:56:23 <tswett> Here's a program, I guess: http://pastie.org/4005760
03:56:56 <tswett> After n > 0 iterations, 1 has the value 1, 2 has the value 3, 3 has the value 2^n, and 4 has the value 2^(n+1) - 1. I think.
03:59:08 <elliott> For the benefit of future generations:
04:10:14 <tswett> Okay, I don't think multiplication by 2^(1/3) is actually a useful operation.
04:10:37 <tswett> So, let's do the same, except these are the operations:
04:10:58 <tswett> "subtract Y from X", "calculate the number of groups of order X".
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05:22:46 <lambdabot> shachaf asked 2d 1h 9m 16s ago: hi
05:22:46 <lambdabot> Taneb asked 10h 53m 45s ago: What does fair do?
05:26:06 <zzo38> Taneb: Read the document for MonadLogic for some information about >>- it is a fair junction or something like that; fair ["Hello", "World"] = "HWeolrllod"; fair ["Hello", "World", "12345"] = "HWe1lol2or3l4d5"
05:26:22 <zzo38> So it is something like join but using a different order
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06:09:08 <itidus20> FORTRAN's tragic fate has been its wide acceptance. APL is a mistake. students that have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration.
06:09:29 <itidus20> LISP has assisted a number of our most gifted fellow humans in thinking previously impossible thoughts.
06:12:37 <itidus20> The use of COBOL cripples the mind
06:13:36 <shachaf> elliott: You know Control.Concurrent.Spawn?
06:13:58 <shachaf> What's the way you're supposed to use "pool"?
06:14:17 <shachaf> I was thinking of do { runOne <- pool limit; parMapIO_ (runOne . foo) [1..n] }, but that still spawns n threads most of which do nothing at any point in time, which seems like it might not be strictly necessary.
06:14:27 <elliott> you realise kmc is in here right
06:14:38 <shachaf> Yes, but he's not responding.
06:14:43 <shachaf> (In the other channel, at least.)
06:14:44 <elliott> shachaf: anyway that sounds correct to me
06:15:03 <shachaf> But spawning a million threads is annoying when most of them are just waiting on the QSem.
06:15:08 <itidus20> full PL/1, with its growth characteristics of a dangerous tumor, could turn out to be a fatal disease.
06:15:10 <shachaf> In particular it means that my program is slow and takes 100% CPU
06:15:42 <elliott> shachaf: does runOne do that?
06:26:09 <shachaf> How pool is supposed to be used.
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08:19:18 <HackEgo> 815) <Sgeo> hack and back? <Patashu> works on anything much slower than you <monqy> at the cost of: guilt, hating yourself, me sending you the message "hi" <Patashu> am I also forbidden to cast mephitic cloud and cblink <monqy> i will also send you "hi" if you: kite excessively, use mephitic cloud, -yes \ 829) <monqy> imagine hitting a brick wall really really hard but you don't do anything to it. instead you explode.
08:19:32 <HackEgo> 829) <monqy> imagine hitting a brick wall really really hard but you don't do anything to it. instead you explode. <monqy> that's what it's like for people who hit you
08:29:45 <shachaf> monqy: "i quoted you in another channel"
08:29:53 <monqy> oh no what happened
08:30:50 <monqy> do you have logs of what happened it's my quote I want to know!!
08:31:32 <shachaf> 01:19 <shachaf> <monqy> imagine hitting a brick wall really really hard but you don't do anything to it. instead you explode. <monqy> that's what it's like for people who hit you
08:31:36 <shachaf> 01:19 <shachaf> I want something like that, except for sending SIGHUP instead of hitting
08:31:47 <shachaf> Because my process is getting a SIGHUP and I don't know why. :-(
08:32:21 <itidus20> but, they .. apparently lost interest
08:33:03 <itidus20> should i feel rejected or relieved
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09:43:15 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
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09:52:29 <fizzie> Wasn't it some sort of ridiculous size.
09:52:32 <fizzie> I think many of them were.
09:53:31 <nortti> I only got HD that has over 512MB 6 years ago
09:59:20 <fizzie> For the Linux versions, Amnesia: The Dark Descent is "1.1 GB", Bastion "1019 MB", and Psychonauts "4.1 GB".
09:59:40 <fizzie> LIMBO and that Sword & Sorcery thing are rather smaller.
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10:04:38 <fizzie> > let 1 + 1 = 3 in 1 + 1
10:05:28 <fizzie> No, you didn't give it a complete expression.
10:05:38 <fizzie> > let 1 = 2 in 1 -- sadly, it is still just 1
10:06:01 <labbekak> i cant express myself completely if i cant set 1 to 2
10:09:39 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `(a -> b -> a) -> a -> [b] -> a'
10:11:40 <lambdabot> *Exception: <interactive>:3:4-8: Non-exhaustive patterns in function +
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10:12:22 <lambdabot> *Exception: <interactive>:3:4-8: Non-exhaustive patterns in function +
10:12:43 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Num.Num GHC.Types.Char)
10:14:27 <itidus20> don't mind me. i don't know haskell and i'm extremely bored
10:14:42 -!- cswords__ has joined.
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10:15:06 <labbekak> > map (chr.(+1).ord) "Same here"
10:15:54 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Enum.Enum (GHC.Types.Char -> GHC.Types.Char))
10:16:19 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Enum.Enum (GHC.Types.Char -> GHC.Types.Char))
10:16:28 <fizzie> > succ . succ . succ $ 'a' -- keep on sucking.
10:17:01 <fizzie> Deewiant: So efficient.
10:17:19 <labbekak> > let twice f = f . f in twice succ 'a'
10:18:40 <labbekak> > let power f n = f . f . f .. n in power succ 10 'a'
10:18:41 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `..'
10:19:57 <lambdabot> [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28...
10:20:14 <fizzie> > succ (maxBound :: Char) -- TO OUTER LIMITS ... AND BEYOND
10:20:15 <lambdabot> *Exception: Prelude.Enum.Char.succ: bad argument
10:20:26 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `Haskell'Not in scope: data constructor `Cur...
10:20:40 <Deewiant> > chr . (+1) . ord $ '\x10ffff'
10:20:41 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `am'Not in scope: `awesome'
10:20:43 <lambdabot> *Exception: Prelude.chr: bad argument: 1114112
10:21:55 <fizzie> Deewiant: \x110000 is the name of the $deity.
10:22:31 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at chara...
10:22:51 <labbekak> > let power f n r = if n == 1 then r else power f (n-1) (f . r)
10:22:52 <lambdabot> not an expression: `let power f n r = if n == 1 then r else power f (n-1) (...
10:23:18 <labbekak> > let power f n r = if n == 1 then r else power f (n-1) (f . r) in power succ 10 () 'a'
10:23:19 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `f a' against inferred type `()'
10:23:30 <labbekak> > let power f n r = if n == 1 then r else power f (n-1) (f . r) in power succ 10 succ 'a'
10:23:35 <Deewiant> > unsafeCoerce 0x110000 :: Char
10:24:55 <labbekak> > map (chr . (ord 'A' + ) . ord) "Albert"
10:25:24 <fizzie> Deewiant: Haskell is just not good enough to express it.
10:25:53 <lambdabot> [2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,2...
10:26:13 <labbekak> this lambdabot is a clever fella
10:26:33 <qfr> What language is that
10:26:39 <qfr> I'm just kidding
10:27:27 <labbekak> > let "hes just kidding" = "ok" in "hes just kidding"
10:28:13 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `='
10:28:32 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `='
10:31:48 <labbekak> I wish I had a lambdabot, I would take her to the park.
10:32:01 <fizzie> fungot: What do you think of your fellow bot?
10:32:01 <fungot> fizzie: dd does binary doesn't it? :) fnord je? :) taken me all night to watch this show!"
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11:22:13 <_niels> > reverse "trebla olleh"
11:22:55 <labbekak> > (succ . reverse) "slein olleh"
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11:22:56 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Enum.Enum [GHC.Types.Char])
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11:26:17 <fizzie> Taneb: You've been talked to.
11:26:38 <fizzie> 08:26 <zzo38> Taneb: Read the document for MonadLogic for some information about >>- it is a fair junction or something like that; fair ["Hello", "World"] = "HWeolrllod"; fair ["Hello", "World", "12345"] = "HWe1lol2or3l4d5"
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11:26:43 <fizzie> 08:26 <zzo38> So it is something like join but using a different order
11:27:01 <fizzie> The regular sort of talked to, not via the bot.
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11:38:43 <Taneb> Thanks, past zzo38!
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11:44:11 <fizzie> The once and future zzo38. (I don't recall what that references.)
11:44:30 <Taneb> Arthurian mythology
11:44:37 <Taneb> King Arthur, the once and future king
11:44:55 <fizzie> Yes, I think so too, though I believe via something else.
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12:04:59 <Taneb> It was a short story by someone, I think
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13:07:25 <lambdabot> boily: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
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15:58:15 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 7 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
16:02:03 <Gregor> @tell elliott And now you have 8.
16:02:39 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
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18:28:40 <Taneb> I've just realised I am unable to program in C
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18:38:39 <ais523> Taneb: do you see this as a problem?
18:38:54 <Taneb> I see it as a mild annoyance
18:39:17 <Taneb> It means I'm not going to win the IOCCC any time soon
18:40:35 <Gregor> #1 reason to program in C, obviously.
18:45:43 <Sgeo__> I kind of hate VXJunkies, because it traps people who think it's real
18:46:06 <kmc> what is it
18:46:22 <Sgeo__> http://www.reddit.com/r/VXJunkies
18:46:26 <kmc> does not help
18:47:10 <Sgeo__> http://www.reddit.com/r/VXJunkies/comments/rt7pa/new_to_vx_help/
18:47:26 <elliott> this just in: Sgeo__ "hates jokes; they're misleading"
18:47:52 <kmc> so this is just
18:47:54 <kmc> fake science?
18:48:02 <Sgeo__> I more hate not actually explaining the joke to people who don't get it and think it's real
18:48:20 <Sgeo__> kmc, fake ... some sort of principle machines
18:48:39 <Sgeo__> The FAQ http://www.reddit.com/r/VXJunkies/comments/ewihz/
18:50:17 <ais523> hmm, time for an "am I crazy or not" question: reducing the number of bugs Splint finds in my code by finding false positives and patching Splint to detect them correctly
18:50:20 <Sgeo__> Sent two messages to people in that subreddit who may have thought it was real
18:50:59 <Sgeo__> ais523, would these be general use patches or would their general use result in false negatives?
18:51:22 <ais523> they're meant to be general use, although (obviously) might be buggy
18:51:44 <ais523> amazingly, I managed to get two false positives in the same line
18:52:04 <nortti_> yay. got staticaly linked sash to work.
18:53:16 <ais523> /* at file scope */ typedef /*@dependent@*/ int* dependentint_p; static dependent_int global_array_of_dependent_ints[10]; /*@dependent@*/ int *foo(void) {return global_array_of_dependent_ints[5];}
18:53:46 <ais523> the bugs were a) it was checking to see if the global was owned, rather than owned /or/ dependent; b) it was checking the annotation on the array itself, rather than the array's elements
18:54:09 <ais523> meanwhile, I have replaced a bunch of for loops with do-while loops because Splint is a little braindead with respect to loops
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18:55:12 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ?welcome: not found
18:55:23 <HackEgo> Wallabee: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
18:55:56 <ais523> hmm, dreadnaught is now beating everything but counterpoke? ouch
18:56:02 <ais523> looks like I made counterpoke just in time
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19:10:10 <Sgeo__> ais523, Wallabee is probably Gregor
19:10:52 * ais523 vaguely accuses itidus20 of being Gregor
19:11:08 <Sgeo__> Well, Gregor is a wallabee
19:11:24 <Gregor> My species is still spelled properly.
19:18:13 <kmc> @remember mrwright Some people, when faced with a problem, say "I know, I'll use transfinite induction over the ordinals!" Now they have a class-sized collection of problems.
19:18:13 <lambdabot> It is forever etched in my memory.
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19:41:56 <david_werecat> I just learnt that parameter optimization is VERY slow...
19:42:41 <Taneb> Gregor: CRAZY SUGGESTION: !bf_joust_test
19:43:49 <david_werecat> I'm using an offline compiled version of EgoJoust to run the tests, although it would be nice to have a server function to do the same.
19:45:47 <david_werecat> Hmmm... even after half an hour my optimizer still hasn't found a better configuration.
19:46:54 <Taneb> Maybe you've reached the optimum
19:47:30 <david_werecat> I doubt it, the version up right now is barely optimized at all.
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19:54:42 <ais523> hmm, egojoust is quite slow, isn't it?
19:55:06 <elliott> hackego doesn't use egojoust
19:55:11 <elliott> and egojoust is very buggy
19:55:21 <elliott> http://git.zem.fi/chainlance
19:55:49 <ais523> chainlance is an entirely viable option
19:56:13 <elliott> especially since it's what egobot actually uses :P
19:57:30 <tswett> Would anyone mind if I rambled inanely for a while?
19:59:17 <david_werecat> !bfjoust dreadnought http://tinypaste.com/2ae75e0f/save.php?hash=32765885219c22e699c610e7ac7d6d28
19:59:21 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_dreadnought: 0.0
20:00:04 <tswett> A part of your soul ties you to the next world, or maybe to the last. This world is just illusion, trying to change you.
20:00:50 <david_werecat> !bfjoust dreadnought http://tinypaste.com/d65f4df7/save.php?hash=f803e31d09c9d25051a6cff3bc4ea235
20:00:53 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_dreadnought: 66.8
20:01:59 <david_werecat> !bfjoust dreadnought http://tinypaste.com/89f64fa2/save.php?hash=2f8298684e97f172e414d2a18789d7af
20:02:04 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_dreadnought: 70.9
20:02:24 -!- MSleep has changed nick to MDude.
20:02:39 <tswett> What is the "next world"? Presumably it's where you go when you die, or something like that. Does everyone go to the same "next world", or are there different ones for different people?
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20:03:57 <quintopia> tswett: not every goes to the next world, but you certainly cant get there if you die
20:04:14 <quintopia> you have to beat world 1 to get to world 2
20:04:31 <quintopia> you might can skip some worlds if you find a warp room
20:05:28 <tswett> Are all of the worlds just illusion, or only some of them?
20:05:40 <Taneb> quintopia, you start with free lives, though, and get another live every hundred coins or when you eat a special mushroom
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20:07:42 <quintopia> Taneb: you're not reallydead until all lives are gone. just set back a bit. the karma cycle ofrebirth goes on.
20:24:18 <ais523> so, the whole UEFI thing is causing a row again
20:24:56 <ais523> because although on x86 (and not ARM) the bootloaders are meant to be open to new user-specified keys, you have to muck around in the BIOS to enable them
20:25:08 <ais523> so Microsoft offered to sign Fedora's bootloader with Microsoft's key
20:25:13 <ais523> and there's a huge row about whether Fedora are selling out or not
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20:26:09 <ais523> any opinons here? it's a pretty interesting mess
20:26:22 <kmc> i'm starting to think the openness of the PC platform is a historical accident which will not be repated
20:26:35 <Sgeo__> kmc, well, now I'm depressed
20:27:34 <ais523> what's your opinion on the UEFI thing?
20:28:33 <ais523> <ais523> so Microsoft offered to sign Fedora's bootloader with Microsoft's key
20:29:29 <ais523> (not using pronouns because nobody would parse it correctly if I did)
20:30:00 <elliott> right, I read the blog post thing
20:30:32 <ais523> no, Fedora had to pay $99 (once), but to Verisign not Microsoft
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20:32:57 <ais523> hmm, I actually think it's Microsoft genuinely trying to help
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20:33:51 <kmc> at least we can take comfort in the fact that computer security is terrible
20:34:03 <kmc> and so even in the future when it's necessary to root your own laptop, it will be possible to do so
20:34:45 <kmc> i mean this "secure boot" thing is pretty silly; are they really going to remove every feature and bug in the Linux kernel which allows root to execute code as ring0?
20:36:51 <pikhq_> ais523: Yes, it's just pretty damned shitty.
20:38:24 <pikhq_> It doesn't improve security notably, it just makes things fairly inconvenient.
20:38:58 <pikhq_> (if an attacker is at the point where they could mess with the bootloader, they already own your box.)
20:39:26 <kmc> yeah, that's the point...
20:39:38 <kmc> this is why you want the bootloader to be cryptographically signed, in theory
20:39:53 <pikhq_> Except they own the box *even without touching the bootloader*.
20:39:59 <kmc> signed against a private key which is stored in a TPM chip or such
20:40:04 <kmc> pikhq_: how so
20:40:19 <kmc> presumably you have an encrypted disk
20:40:22 <kmc> if you care about this stuff
20:40:41 <pikhq_> Okay, true, then you're good if it's someone with physical access to your box.
20:40:45 <kmc> these discussions always devolve into "well, they *COULD* break out an ion deposition cannon and screw with the transistors on your CPU"
20:40:55 <nortti_> ELKS is pretty awesome. It also shows how much bloat new apps have. I got a out of memory error when trying to start vi because I tried to start it under ash that was running on top of sash instead of directly from sash
20:40:56 <kmc> missing the point that security is about relative threat and countermeasure costs
20:40:59 <kmc> and there are no absolutes
20:41:13 <pikhq_> If it's a remote attacker, yeah, your OS install is utterly suspect, even without the ability to mess with the bootloader.
20:41:20 <kmc> nortti_: nobody cares that vim uses 2 megs of ram instead of 1
20:41:22 <kmc> go back to 1985
20:42:01 <pikhq_> kmc: 'Scuse me, I'm offended that zlib has crc32 in 100k instead of 100 bytes.
20:42:16 <kmc> yes all this "bloated" software, so horrible that we're optimizing for the very expensive human time instead of very cheap computer resources
20:42:37 <pikhq_> (note that to get 100k crc32 you have to pessimize human time as well as computer resources)
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20:42:53 <nortti_> kmc: I meant vi. Vim wouldn't even start (64kB limit for .text)
20:43:05 <kmc> pikhq_: that sounds like actually shit code
20:43:19 <kmc> whereas the usual whining about "bloat" is about fine code which omg doesn't use every cycle to maximum efficiency!!!
20:43:31 <pikhq_> kmc: Yes. When I talk about "bloated code" I mostly refer to stuff that is *actually a large quantity of code*.
20:43:46 <pikhq_> Because 99% of the time the metric that matters is how much code there is for humans to deal with.
20:43:56 <kmc> ok, well that's not what nortti_ was talking about
20:44:09 <pikhq_> Though he'd probably have better luck with smaller human code size.
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20:44:56 <pikhq_> nortti_: Which vi are you using?
20:45:35 <nortti_> pikhq_: you meant on ELKS? I am not completely sure
20:45:54 <pikhq_> (not that ELKS is anything but a curiosity at this point)
20:46:03 <ais523> oh well, I just submitted the story to Slashdot, mostly because I'm really interested in the resulting comments
20:46:04 <nortti_> on slitaz I use busybox vi
20:46:06 <kmc> i mean programming with restricted resources is a fun challenge
20:46:11 <kmc> and is sometimes required for embedded systems
20:46:44 <pikhq_> Though we're in a weird land where some embedded systems beat out 10 year old workstations.
20:47:15 <nortti_> ais523: that UEFI secure boit story?
20:47:21 <pikhq_> Though, I'm not sure you can call "ARM in everything" "embedded" anymore.
20:47:54 <ais523> I had a 50% success rate for Slashdot submissions before this one
20:47:55 <kmc> but it's dumb when programmers get all smug and serious about a desktop app using 1 MB of RAM, which is $0.005 of RAM at current prices
20:47:58 <ais523> let's see if it gets accepted or rejected
20:48:06 <kmc> anyway I've made this point enough times
20:48:14 <kmc> nortti_ seems oblivious or maybe I'm just misunderstanding their motivations
20:48:28 <fizzie> You mean this http://linux.slashdot.org/story/12/05/31/190217/red-hat-will-pay-microsoft-to-get-past-uefi-restrictions story?
20:48:48 <nortti_> pikhq_: yeah. Also the feeling when you realize that the speed of the phone your friend whines about is actually faster than your computer's
20:48:56 <pikhq_> kmc: 1MiB of RAM? Heck, I might use that as a buffer.
20:49:32 <pikhq_> (okay, okay, only if that's actually sane.)
20:49:57 <ais523> fizzie: I looked for it, pity the search is still bad
20:50:06 <ais523> oh well, at least it /still/ has a 50% chance of being accepted :)
20:50:13 <fizzie> I used this thing called Google.
20:50:14 <nortti_> I try to limit my programs to 64kB code+64kB stack&heap
20:50:31 <pikhq_> nortti_: You're a bit nuts.
20:51:54 <pikhq_> nortti_: More-so given that *even considering 8086's limitations* that sucker has no business being restricted to a single real mode segment per code, stack, heap.
20:52:28 <pikhq_> Sure, the addressing gets really ridiculous, but eh.
20:53:29 <ais523> my own prediction is that someone will find a way to jailbreak the UEFI protection pretty quickly
20:53:38 <ais523> perhaps using bugs in Microsoft's bootloader
20:54:13 <nortti_> well I want my code to run on all of my *nix systems including MINIX 1. Now I'll just hope I don't install lunix on my c64
20:55:16 <nortti_> pikhq_: it is more of a limitation in bcc
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21:00:19 <Phantom__Hoover> what the fuck is the point in a screen lock that includes a screensaver that is literally a transparent window moving around the screen
21:00:48 <ais523> Phantom__Hoover: it doesn't stop people looking at your screen, but it does stop them giving commands to it
21:02:01 <Phantom__Hoover> I... would quite like it if they can't look at my screen, and I'm especially unhappy that it's not made clear that it can randomly decide to stop doing that.
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21:05:02 <ais523> oh, I thought it was an option, rather than something that happens randomly
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21:12:45 <zzo38> Are you sure, you cannot turn off those things?
21:12:59 <zzo38> If it include some screensaver, can you add/remove some?
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22:07:24 <lambdabot> monqy: You have 10 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
22:08:48 <elliott> the ogak is playing right now
22:08:55 <elliott> it's had "quality elliptic help"
22:09:00 <elliott> it's only died like 8 times so far anyway
22:09:07 <elliott> i also did orc on another one
22:09:11 <elliott> have to do lair on another one but it's almost dead
22:09:17 <elliott> i gave more info in lambdabot and henzell messages :P
22:09:42 <elliott> monqy: also you will be pleased to know:
22:09:51 <elliott> "ready for a tukima's party"
22:11:55 <elliott> it;s DISCOBRADECAPELLO on cao
22:12:47 <elliott> monqy: do you have any suggestions
22:12:54 <elliott> also i followed syraine's ogak guide it went "great"
22:13:18 <elliott> train m&f and fighting, focus m&f, m&f until 12, fighting until 8, then fighting -> invocations
22:13:26 <elliott> so i stopped following it because it's terrible
22:13:28 <elliott> and just trained invo instead
22:13:30 <elliott> and syraine was really sad
22:14:36 <monqy> team CHAOSTALK spreadsheet. fewn. syraine. mission 1. Comments: F_)ck FeWn
22:15:46 <elliott> monqy: btw i was going to disto the gsc
22:16:14 <monqy> yeah that's the only problem with tukimas ogak
22:16:44 <monqy> could disto it and just unwield once tukimas. worst case we get glowed to hell
22:16:44 <elliott> monqy: apart from having to train to 27 hexes, apparently
22:16:52 <monqy> yeah that's the worst part
22:16:54 <elliott> monqy: have you forgotten: abyss
22:17:08 <elliott> monqy: btw i fell down a shaft from like D:7 to D:11
22:17:15 <monqy> elliott: lugonu, elliott
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22:30:04 <elliott> monqy: the pan lords names were created in lowercase
22:30:12 <elliott> "ha" -judge of username competition
23:07:22 <elliott> monqy: how is the vpar going
23:10:43 <elliott> monqy: btw feel free to put rc stuff on the ogak
23:10:49 <elliott> as long as it doesn't end up looking like squarelos
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23:27:41 <david_werecat> elliott: Thanks for letting me know about gearlance. It's working much better.
23:27:57 <elliott> Does the wiki still talk about egojoust?
23:28:01 <elliott> It should probably be updated.
23:28:13 <zzo38> How to do gamma correction by integer arithmetic?
23:28:24 <ais523> any of the lances or juiced are reasonable for running tests
23:28:32 <ais523> (I use juiced because I wrote it and it has some nifty features for testing)
23:28:56 <elliott> i'll still finish lance some day
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23:29:53 <david_werecat> Fun fact: The current configuration of dreadnought is nearly optimal, even though I barely optimized it.
23:30:23 <zzo38> How to gamma/contrast/brightness table by integer arithmetic?
23:31:13 <ais523> david_werecat: can't think of any way to beat counterpoke without losing a huge amount of ground to everything else?
23:31:50 <ais523> so, I've come to the conclusion that the main difference between counterpoke and things like ffspg is that it sets the decoys much nearer the square it pokes
23:32:17 <ais523> which means that the opponent has to be leaving evidence of their motion for it to work well
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23:32:45 <david_werecat> Actually, I have a test version that doesn't leave a trail.
23:33:17 <zzo38> I realized I do have C documentation in my computer, in Cygwin, so I will use that
23:33:31 <david_werecat> Counterpoke still does well, even without a trail, though.
23:33:32 <ais523> not leaving a trail leaves you vulnerable to regular rushes, unless you set large decoys
23:33:38 <zzo38> (It doesn't answer the gamma/contrast/brightness question, though)
23:33:44 <ais523> and indeed, the second half is optimized against trail-free programs
23:33:53 <ais523> on the basis that it wouldn't even be reached for trailing programs
23:36:22 <david_werecat> It's strange that counterpoke is so low on the list.
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23:38:00 <ais523> right next to insidious, which is a much more hopeless strategy
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23:39:04 <Gregor> Beaten out by ill_bet_you_have_four_decoys ;)
23:42:22 <david_werecat> !bfjoust dreadnought http://tinypaste.com/65b19928/save.php?hash=7cc9e6cd41212521c6ab0d41cf88767e
23:42:26 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_dreadnought: 71.2
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23:44:07 <elliott> ais523: so do you still think bf joust is broken?
23:48:02 <ais523> elliott: it's not as healthy as it could be
23:50:02 <oerjan> it's not dead it's just resting
23:53:26 <ais523> haha, counterpoke falls off the tape against anticipation
23:53:37 <ais523> looks like counter-shudder isn't so useless after all :)
00:03:42 <david_werecat> Optimization 37% done and I'm not even optimizing the decoy setup
00:04:40 <ais523> !bfjoust anticipation http://sprunge.us/ejTG
00:04:43 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_anticipation: 0.0
00:04:48 <ais523> bleh, size limit again…
00:05:24 <ais523> no, I added in the cases needed to beat dreadnaught
00:05:34 <ais523> I'm going to delete some of the five-cycle offset clear cases that aren't used in practice
00:06:07 <ais523> I feel justified in this sort of constant-tweaking because it's working around hill limitations rather than program limitations
00:06:17 <ais523> !bfjoust anticipation http://sprunge.us/PBLP
00:06:22 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_anticipation: 35.9
00:06:45 <ais523> ais523_anticipation.bfjoust vs david_werecat_dreadnought.bfjoust
00:06:46 <ais523> <<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -30
00:06:48 <ais523> ais523_anticipation.bfjoust wins.
00:07:09 <ais523> I can generate the full anticipation easily enough but the hill won't accept it
00:07:41 <ais523> interestingly, it manages to get dreadnaught to run off the tape (!)
00:07:50 <ais523> at least on sieve polarity
00:07:54 <ais523> (on kettle it locks it in place instead)
00:08:36 <david_werecat> I think that's because of the way I put in the anti-triplock in the attack scheme.
00:10:01 <ais523> basically, [+[+]][+[+]]> is the sort of pattern you want if you want to be 100% immune to both triplocks and vibrations
00:10:24 <ais523> (although it won't beat anticipation, incidentally)
00:11:15 <ais523> a triplock requires three ] in a row, and there aren't there
00:11:33 <ais523> and a vibration relies on you not checking for two cycles in a row, and that does
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00:13:13 <david_werecat> I'm going to try to quickly plug that into dreadnought and see the results.
00:14:18 <ais523> that's a [+] replacement
00:14:35 <ais523> if you wanted a different sort of clear loop, you'd replace each of the +s with everything you wanted inside the loop
00:15:15 <ais523> !bfjoust beats_vibration_and_triplock (>)*8(>[+[+]][+[+]])*21
00:15:18 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_beats_vibration_and_triplock: 20.8
00:15:20 * ais523 vaguely wonders if it beats anything else
00:15:38 <david_werecat> !bfjoust dreadnought http://tinypaste.com/8ff271d4/save.php?hash=bb8ae3da6cffef9d87d8764331b10e7c
00:15:42 <ais523> huh, all of olsner's programs, for one
00:15:42 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_dreadnought: 70.4
00:15:53 <david_werecat> !bfjoust dreadnought http://tinypaste.com/65b19928/save.php?hash=7cc9e6cd41212521c6ab0d41cf88767e
00:15:56 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_dreadnought: 71.0
00:16:19 <ais523> and counterpoke, hahaha
00:16:59 <ais523> the other results are expected (it beats programs that require the opponent to use decoys, and the things it's tuned to beat)
00:17:16 <ais523> so now, you're beating everything but anticipation and counterpoke
00:17:23 <ais523> I actually really really like anticipation
00:17:47 <ais523> such a pity it doesn't compress well
00:17:59 <ais523> it's a very simple program really, just all the cases have to be written out by hand and there are thousands
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00:20:08 <david_werecat> If only the hill allowed something like bzip2 compression
00:20:21 <ais523> you can't run a program while it's bzipped :)
00:21:19 <ais523> I think the issue's space used in memory while the program is running, rather than bandwidth
00:21:31 <ais523> hmm, the waterfalls beat dreadnought on one polarity
00:21:48 <ais523> I guess it's misdetecting on the other polarity, and the fallbacks don't work
00:22:27 <ais523> dreadnaught seems far from unbeatable, the more I look at it
00:22:48 <ais523> and, heh, on very long tapes there are draws, I'm guessing due to time out
00:24:29 <david_werecat> Dreadnought shouldn't be too hard to beat, it'll just take some time.
00:25:17 <ais523> counterpoke seems to beat it comprehensively, but I'm thinking more of tweaking existing strategies to beat it
00:25:35 * ais523 watches waterfall2 beat dreadnought on a long tape on kettle polarity
00:25:45 <ais523> then I guess I'll watch it lose on sieve, to see why
00:28:39 <david_werecat> It looks like waterfall2 waits for dreanought even when dreadnought has passed onto the next space
00:29:16 <ais523> 3 has fallbacks against that sort of thing
00:29:20 <ais523> but they probably won't work
00:29:28 <ais523> it falls back to triplocking in emergencies, and you have counter-triplock code
00:30:27 <david_werecat> It looks like the reason why dreadnought continues past is also due to the counter-triplock code
00:33:25 <david_werecat> Actually, it seems that dreadnought moves onto the [-] part of the clear routine on normal polarity and so it move on after 2 cycles instead of 3
00:35:13 <ais523> this is quite common against waterfall, it's really complex /and/ really fragile
00:36:05 <ais523> getting it to the top of the hill required lots of constant-tweaking just to avoid coincidences where enemy programs got knocked onto a different part of their clear algo
00:36:36 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if an inline clear can be modified to take constant time?
00:37:02 <ais523> it'd be awesome if it could
00:37:28 <ais523> but it seems awkward, it has beautifully hard to time constructs like [>] in
00:40:36 <ais523> hmm, the duration depends on the distance it has to move and the amount it has to clear
00:40:56 <ais523> using an inefficient clear where we only change the value by 1 at a time until it's zeroed makes one of the values constant
00:42:03 <ais523> and I guess we could use a counter or something for the tape length, copying it back and forth between a cell and the next one
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00:48:37 <ais523> doable, but may end up too long /and/ too slow
00:52:32 <ais523> !bfjoust omega_turtle >>>>>>(+)*12<(+)*60<(-)*60<(+)*60<(+)*60<(-)*60(>)*7((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21
00:52:35 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_omega_turtle: 23.2
00:54:43 <ais523> ooh, I think I've found the perfect clear loop for counterpoke :)
00:55:11 <ais523> although this will suck against defence
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00:57:46 <david_werecat> !bfjoust dreadnought http://tinypaste.com/e0870cd3/save.php?hash=d8e637c825b5fda9f9a5256ab546e67d
00:57:50 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_dreadnought: 66.2
00:58:18 <david_werecat> !bfjoust dreadnought http://tinypaste.com/65b19928/save.php?hash=7cc9e6cd41212521c6ab0d41cf88767e
00:58:21 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_dreadnought: 69.8
00:59:37 <elliott> it seems to be getting worse
00:59:39 <ais523> !bfjoust omega_turtle >>>>>[>>>>(+)*128[+]]>>>[<<<(+)*12<(-)*60<(+)*60<(+)*60<(-)*60(>)*7((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(-)*60<(+)*60<(+)*60<(-)*60<(+)*60<(+)*60<(-)*60(>)*7((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21
00:59:43 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_omega_turtle: 27.9
01:00:14 <ais523> beats quite a lot of things, actually
01:00:17 <itidus20> 69.8 is a good score though eh
01:01:18 <ais523> I came to the realisation that /even if/ you have a really really large offset on your offset turtle, it's still going to go faster than a standard clear
01:02:08 <david_werecat> 71 was before countermeasures, so a little unrealistic.
01:02:18 <itidus20> don't get me wrong i couldn't write a bfjouster for the life of me, but i know that 71.2 has got to be a serious score
01:02:24 <ais523> countermeasures = everyone coming up with creative new ways to beat your program?
01:02:29 <ais523> itidus20: well, I consider 30 to be a nice solid score
01:02:40 <ais523> over 70, you have to have a serious attempt at beating /every/ other program
01:03:55 <ais523> !bfjoust omega_counterpoke http://sprunge.us/TLKR
01:03:59 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_omega_counterpoke: 0.0
01:04:26 <david_werecat> itidus20: The average on the hill is around 28 or so.
01:04:35 <elliott> ais523: syntax error, probably
01:04:42 <itidus20> i guess it's not about twinking
01:04:53 <ais523> missed an open paren somewhere, I think
01:05:11 <ais523> !bfjoust omega_counterpoke http://sprunge.us/eQgF
01:05:14 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_omega_counterpoke: 0.0
01:05:59 <david_werecat> Lots of unmatched loops and perenthesis, looking at egojsout.
01:06:18 <ais523> !bfjoust omega_counterpoke http://sprunge.us/IdEN
01:06:21 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_omega_counterpoke: 11.4
01:06:26 <ais523> hmm, not as high as I'd hoped
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01:06:46 <ais523> and now it loses to juggernaught
01:08:07 <ais523> seems the clear loop in omega_counterpoke is just impractically slow for the situations it ends up in
01:08:24 <ais523> counterpoke's strength in skipping decoys, the strength of a careless clear is that it doesn't care about decoys
01:08:54 <ais523> so both omega_turtle and counterpoke are better than omega_counterpoke
01:08:58 <ais523> interesting experiment, anyway
01:12:14 <david_werecat> !bfjoust counterpoke_o8 http://tinypaste.com/592fbfd1/save.php?hash=7e4c4922ec72a14c90a7e6312b821d59
01:12:17 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_counterpoke_o8: 26.5
01:13:05 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_counterpoke_o8: 0.0
01:13:27 <david_werecat> It seems that increasing the range of the offset clear doesn't help much either.
01:17:51 <ais523> I wouldn't expect it to
01:17:59 <ais523> 3's enough to get past trivial trails and the like
01:18:12 <ais523> anything else, it's probably not going to be worth doing anything other than brute-forcing it
01:21:08 <ais523> because it's quite likely to be a flag
01:22:17 -!- yiyus has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
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01:24:10 <david_werecat> Hmm, the optimizer just found a better config for dreadnought, but I can't extract it in mid-run.
01:25:53 -!- yiyus has joined.
01:27:43 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>(+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40>[]<([{(<(-)*50)*4<(+)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17}](<(+)*50)*4<(-)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17)%256
01:27:46 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_skyscraper: 9.4
01:27:58 <ais523> it's pretty experimental, I didn't expect it to work well
01:28:02 <ais523> now to see how it fails
01:29:48 <ais523> oh, duh, that was really really stupid
01:30:29 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>(+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40>[]<(+[{(<(-)*50)*4<(+)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17}](<(+)*50)*4<(-)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17)%256
01:30:32 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_skyscraper: 12.2
01:34:14 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40>[]<(+[{(<(-)*50)*5<(+)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17}](<(+)*50)*5<(-)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17)%256
01:34:17 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_skyscraper: 16.6
01:34:27 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: later chat).
01:34:27 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40>[]<(+[{(<(-)*50)*5<(+)*78(>)*13((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17}](<(+)*50)*5<(-)*78(>)*13((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17)%256
01:34:30 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_skyscraper: 16.0
01:34:40 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40>[]<(+[{(<(-)*50)*5<(+)*78(>)*11((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17}](<(+)*50)*5<(-)*78(>)*11((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17)%256
01:34:43 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_skyscraper: 16.2
01:34:50 <ais523> looks like I guessed right first time :)
01:35:14 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>[((>>>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21]>[((>>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21]>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40>[]<(+[{(<(-)*50)*5<(+)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17}](<(+)*50)*5<(-)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17)%256
01:35:17 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_skyscraper: 15.9
01:35:25 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>[((>>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21]>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40>[]<(+[{(<(-)*50)*5<(+)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17}](<(+)*50)*5<(-)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17)%256
01:35:29 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_skyscraper: 15.9
01:35:39 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40>[]<(+[{(<(-)*50)*5<(+)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17}](<(+)*50)*5<(-)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17)%256
01:35:42 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_skyscraper: 16.6
01:36:16 <ais523> ais523_skyscraper.bfjoust vs ais523_triplock3.bfjoust XXX>XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XXX>XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX -2 ais523_skyscraper.bfjoust wins.
01:38:03 <ais523> oh, obviously, they're just both waiting for each other
01:39:24 <david_werecat> That's the problem with programming defense, it doesn't work so well again other defense programs.
01:39:43 <Gregor> ais523 is, I'm sure, ruefully aware of that.
01:40:14 <ais523> not really rueful, it's pretty easy to change to a counter-defence rush after a few tens of thousands of cycles
01:40:57 <ais523> oh, /ouch/, there's an obvious bug in skyscraper
01:42:26 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>[]<(+[{<(-)*60(<(-)*50)*4<(+)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17}]<(+)*40(<(+)*50)*4<(-)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17)%256
01:42:29 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_skyscraper: 18.2
01:44:18 <ais523> and another, which is less easily fixable
01:47:03 <david_werecat> Optimization 89% done... it'll probabbly only be another tenth of a point anyways.
01:47:58 <ais523> !bfjoust >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>(+)*20[]<(+++++[[[[[[{<(-)*60(<(-)*50)*4<(+)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17}]<(+)*40(<(+)*50)*4<(-)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17]<(+)*40(<(+)*50)*4<(-)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17]<(+)*40(<(+)*50)*4<(-)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17]<(+)*40(<(+)*50)*4<(-)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[--
01:47:59 <david_werecat> Dreadnought was surprisingly close to what the current optimizer found, despite being unoptimized
01:47:59 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
01:48:00 <ais523> -[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17]<(+)*40(<(+)*50)*4<(-)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17]<(+)*40(<(+)*50)*4<(-)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17)%45
01:48:06 <ais523> err, that didn't fit all one line :)
01:48:51 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper http://sprunge.us/VjDE
01:48:52 <david_werecat> I wondered what would happen with long lines on irc...
01:48:55 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_skyscraper: 14.8
01:49:00 <ais523> heh, and it was worse anyway
01:49:05 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>[]<(+[{<(-)*60(<(-)*50)*4<(+)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17}]<(+)*40(<(+)*50)*4<(-)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17)%256
01:49:08 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_skyscraper: 18.2
01:50:32 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>[]<(+[{<(-)*60(<(-)*50)*4<(+)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[-]]]]])%17)*17}]<(+)*40(<(+)*50)*4<(-)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[-]]]]])%17)*17)%256
01:50:35 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_skyscraper: 17.2
01:51:16 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>[]<(+[{<(-)*60(<(-)*50)*4<(+)*78(>)*12((>[(+)*20[-]])%17)*17}]<(+)*40(<(+)*50)*4<(-)*78(>)*12((>[(+)*20[-]])%17)*17)%256
01:51:19 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_skyscraper: 21.9
01:51:27 <ais523> experimenting with different sorts of clear loop
01:51:33 <ais523> I thought a large offset clear might work well with that algo
01:51:51 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>[]<(+[{<(-)*60(<(-)*50)*4<(+)*78(>)*12((>[(+)*30[-]])%17)*17}]<(+)*40(<(+)*50)*4<(-)*78(>)*12((>[(+)*30[-]])%17)*17)%256
01:51:54 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_skyscraper: 20.9
01:52:01 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>[]<(+[{<(-)*60(<(-)*50)*4<(+)*78(>)*12((>[(+)*50[-]])%17)*17}]<(+)*40(<(+)*50)*4<(-)*78(>)*12((>[(+)*50[-]])%17)*17)%256
01:52:04 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_skyscraper: 16.6
01:52:11 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>[]<(+[{<(-)*60(<(-)*50)*4<(+)*78(>)*12((>[(+)*10[-]])%17)*17}]<(+)*40(<(+)*50)*4<(-)*78(>)*12((>[(+)*10[-]])%17)*17)%256
01:52:14 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_skyscraper: 19.2
01:52:22 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>[]<(+[{<(-)*60(<(-)*50)*4<(+)*78(>)*12((>[(+)*21[-]])%17)*17}]<(+)*40(<(+)*50)*4<(-)*78(>)*12((>[(+)*21[-]])%17)*17)%256
01:52:25 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_skyscraper: 21.6
01:52:34 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>[]<(+[{<(-)*60(<(-)*50)*4<(+)*78(>)*12((>[(+)*19[-]])%17)*17}]<(+)*40(<(+)*50)*4<(-)*78(>)*12((>[(+)*19[-]])%17)*17)%256
01:52:37 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_skyscraper: 22.1
01:52:45 <ais523> let's stick with this version
01:53:57 <ais523> I guess I could plausibly call it attack9
01:54:01 <ais523> because it's defend9 but a rush program
01:54:32 <ais523> and thus can be defeated by all the usual sorts of things that beat defend9
01:56:23 <david_werecat> It seems that a major loss area is around where Deewiant and Gregor's programs are.
01:57:21 <elliott> monqy: do you have me for converting to jiyva
01:58:11 <monqy> don't worry the character is actually ok now that ive gotten used to it
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02:03:41 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>(+)*30<<(<(+)*10)*4>>>>>>([{(<)*7(-)*99(>)*8(>[(+)*19[-]])*21}<(+[{(<(-)*60)*5<(+)*78(>)*12((>[(+)*19[-]])%17)*17}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12((>[(+)*19[-]])%17)*17)%256])%768
02:03:44 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_skyscraper: 26.1
02:04:21 <ais523> but yes, there's a very easy way to beat skyscraper, which is something that some players do out of habit and some don't
02:04:57 <ais523> heh, and now insidious, skyscraper and counterpoke are all next to each other on the leaderboard
02:05:44 <ais523> btw, dreadnaught has started losing to slowpoke, if I read the leaderboard correctly; I'm not sure why
02:06:04 <ais523> have you figured out skyscraper's strategy yet, btw?
02:08:04 <david_werecat> From what I can see, it detects the polarity of the enemy and builds several large decoys that are more difficult for that polarity.
02:09:53 <ais523> it's setting the decoys to whatever polarity the enemy has trouble clearing
02:09:58 <ais523> effectively making there twice as many
02:10:01 <elliott> ais523: thank you for using the correct polarity names btw
02:10:47 <ais523> you have an interesting definition of "correct" :)
02:13:56 <ais523> combining skyscraper with counterpoke could be interesting
02:14:05 <ais523> but I'm not sure if I have the mental energy to write that right now
02:14:18 <ais523> probably only on long tapes, skyscraper sacrifices short ones
02:16:49 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>(+)*30<<(<(+)*10)*4>>>>>>([{(<)*7(-)*99(>)*8(>[(+)*19[-]])*21}<(+[+(+[{(<(-)*60)*5<(+)*78(>)*12((>[(+)*19[-]])%17)*17}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12((>[(+)*19[-]])%17)*17)%128](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12((>[(+)*19[-]])%17)*17)%128])%768
02:16:52 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_skyscraper: 23.8
02:17:20 <ais523> and that /looked/ like a straight improvement, as well
02:18:06 <ais523> oh, I completely messed up the c/p
02:18:40 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>(+)*30<<(<(+)*10)*4>>>>>>([{(<)*7(-)*99(>)*8(>[(+)*19[-]])*21}<(+[{+(+[{(<(-)*60)*5<(+)*78(>)*12((>[(+)*19[-]])%17)*17}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12((>[(+)*19[-]])%17)*17)%128}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12((>[(+)*19[-]])%17)*17)%128])%768
02:18:43 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_skyscraper: 26.9
02:19:47 <ais523> now it's mostly Gregor it isn't beating
02:20:06 <ais523> and huh, that clear loop is written in a nonsensical manner
02:21:09 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>(+)*30<<(<(+)*10)*4>>>>>>([{(<)*7(-)*99(>)*8(>[(+)*19[-]])*21}<(+[{+(+[{(<(-)*60)*5<(+)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128])%768
02:21:12 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_skyscraper: 26.9
02:21:19 <ais523> that's better, even though it's equivalent
02:21:42 <ais523> next step is timer clear, I guess, as it's struggling against defence
02:22:03 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>(+)*30<<(<(+)*10)*4>>>>>>([{(<)*7(-)*99(>)*8(>[(+)*19[---]])*21}<(+[{+(+[{(<(-)*60)*5<(+)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128])%768
02:22:06 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_skyscraper: 33.2
02:23:16 <ais523> I meant, a much simpler fix than timer clear
02:23:23 <ais523> now it's getting triplocked…
02:27:46 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>(+)*30<<(<(+)*10)*4>>>>>>([{(<)*7(-)*99(>)*8(>[(+)*19([---{[+[+]][+[+]]>}])%256])*21}<(+[{+(+[{(<(-)*60)*5<(+)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128])%768
02:27:49 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_skyscraper: 30.5
02:27:59 <ais523> huh, what did that screw up?
02:28:04 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>(+)*30<<(<(+)*10)*4>>>>>>([{(<)*7(-)*99(>)*8(>[(+)*19[---]])*21}<(+[{+(+[{(<(-)*60)*5<(+)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128])%768
02:28:07 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_skyscraper: 33.2
02:29:03 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>(+)*30<<(<(+)*10)*4>>>>>>([{(<)*7(-)*99(>)*8(>[(+)*19([---{[+[+]][+[+]]>}])%2560])*21}<(+[{+(+[{(<(-)*60)*5<(+)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128])%768
02:29:06 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_skyscraper: 29.1
02:29:20 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>(+)*30<<(<(+)*10)*4>>>>>>([{(<)*7(-)*99(>)*8(>[(+)*19([---{[+[+]][+[+]]>}])%9999)*21}<(+[{+(+[{(<(-)*60)*5<(+)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128])%768
02:29:23 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_skyscraper: 0.0
02:29:36 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>(+)*30<<(<(+)*10)*4>>>>>>([{(<)*7(-)*99(>)*8(>[(+)*19([---{[+[+]][+[+]]>}])%999)*21}<(+[{+(+[{(<(-)*60)*5<(+)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128])%768
02:29:39 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_skyscraper: 0.0
02:29:57 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>(+)*30<<(<(+)*10)*4>>>>>>([{(<)*7(-)*99(>)*8(>[(+)*19([---{[+[+]][+[+]]>}])%9999])*21}<(+[{+(+[{(<(-)*60)*5<(+)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128])%768
02:30:00 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_skyscraper: 24.6
02:30:51 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>(+)*30<<(<(+)*10)*4>>>>>>([{(<)*7(-)*99(>)*8(>[(+)*19([---{[+[+]][+[+]]>([---{[+[+]][+[+]]>([---{[+[+]][+[+]]>}])%2560])}])%2560])}])%2560])*21}<(+[{+(+[{(<(-)*60)*5<(+)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128])%768
02:30:54 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_skyscraper: 0.0
02:31:05 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>(+)*30<<(<(+)*10)*4>>>>>>([{(<)*7(-)*99(>)*8(>[(+)*19[---]])*21}<(+[{+(+[{(<(-)*60)*5<(+)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128])%768
02:31:09 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_skyscraper: 33.2
02:31:49 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*96(.+)*64{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>(+)*30<<(<(+)*10)*4>>>>>>([{(<)*7(-)*99(>)*8(>[(+)*19[---]])*21}<(+[{+(+[{(<(-)*60)*5<(+)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128])%768
02:31:52 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_skyscraper: 33.6
02:33:24 <ais523> now skyscraper's doing better than slowrush
02:33:28 <ais523> this program isn't meant to do this well help
02:33:38 <david_werecat> !bfjoust dreadnought http://tinypaste.com/dbb9314c/save.php?hash=62e33e11c2a65678f411f084883c46a4
02:33:42 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_dreadnought: 67.4
02:33:59 <ais523> heh, dreadnought and skyscraper /draw/
02:34:44 <david_werecat> funny, I didn't even have skyscraper in the optimization set
02:35:55 <myndzi> i'm not feeling well, what is all this mess
02:36:04 <ais523> myndzi: we're jousting
02:36:18 <ais523> david_werecat came up with dreadnought which /almost/ beat everything
02:36:27 <ais523> but I came up with a range of new programs to beat it
02:38:28 <ais523> oh wtf, that was a pretty amazing reason for skyscraper losing on sieve
02:38:30 <myndzi> well, i mean what all is new? ;)
02:38:58 <myndzi> i just got done coding for like 4 days @ 16 hours so my brain doesn't want to read these
02:39:18 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*96(.+)*64{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>(+)*30<<(<(+)*10)*4>>>>>>([{(<)*7(-)*99(>)*8(>[(+)*19[---]])*21}<(+[{.(+[{(<(-)*60)*5<(+)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128])%768
02:39:21 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_skyscraper: 31.5
02:39:24 <myndzi> i just saw a bunch of symbols and was like o, people be playing around eh?
02:40:08 <ais523> not easily fixable, apparently :)
02:40:30 <myndzi> go go slowrush hang in there!!!
02:40:49 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*96(.+)*64{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>(+)*30<<(<(+)*10)*4>>>>>>([{(<)*7(-)*99(>)*8(>[(+)*19[---]])*21}<(+[{+(+[{(<(-)*60)*5<(+)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%100}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%156])%768
02:40:52 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_skyscraper: 34.8
02:41:32 <ais523> that makes it work a bit better against dreadnought and space_elevator
02:41:36 <ais523> and is a nicely generic fix, I hope
02:41:55 <myndzi> i think you guys are just throwing the symbols in a random number generator anymore
02:42:01 <quintopia> i need to get around to fixingspace elevator
02:42:15 <ais523> was space_elevator ever #1? I can't remember
02:42:24 <ais523> what would you be fixing it for? modern strategy?
02:42:39 <quintopia> it does a great decoy build butit clears too slow to win
02:43:08 <ais523> sometimes the simple clear loops are the best
02:43:26 <ais523> elliott: you'll be glad to hear that skyscraper is probably the best moderately good program that sacrifices short tape lengths
02:43:38 <ais523> which was your strategy, IIRC
02:43:43 <ais523> err, first moderately good
02:44:12 <ais523> it doesn't sacrifice them just to get a head start, though; it sacrifices them to give more space to build decoys
02:44:21 <ais523> yes, there's a rule of 12 in there
02:44:32 <ais523> although if it detects a short tape, it switches to omega_turtle
02:44:44 <ais523> so it's only sacrificing short tapes it can't detect, which is typically 3 or 4 lengths
02:45:08 <ais523> the rule of 12 is because if it hasn't lost already, the tape is probably quite long
02:45:15 <ais523> it's a turtle with a very large offset
02:45:53 <quintopia> i have a new program but it is almost certainly too long
02:47:03 <quintopia> i'd like to add something to bfj language to make complex strategies smaller and clearer
02:47:19 <quintopia> but it would probably obsoleteall currentstrategies
02:48:16 <myndzi> not if it doesn't change instruction size?
02:48:26 <myndzi> some kind of macro compiler could be useful
02:48:38 <myndzi> i'm not quite sure what kind of directives you would quantify these with though
02:48:45 <myndzi> but there are patterns so i'm sure it's possible
02:50:44 <david_werecat> If the macros had submultipliers, it would be even better.
02:51:31 <elliott> david_werecat: problem is the macros have to be expanded server-side
02:51:36 <elliott> which doesn't work when you have very complex constructions
02:51:50 <elliott> the thing with the existing repetition facilities is that they can be interpreted efficiently, without expansion
02:51:58 <elliott> (egojoust expands them, which is why it's so slow)
02:54:52 * ais523 rages at sucralose_philip
02:54:57 <ais523> and the other programs based on it
02:55:29 <ais523> changing strategy after four decoys makes all my strategy detection kind-of useless
02:57:29 <david_werecat> Whoa, what's triplock3 doing that near to the bottom?
02:57:47 <ais523> david_werecat: triplock3 is a simplified but less accurate triplock2
02:57:52 <ais523> so it should be doing somewhat worse than triplock2
02:58:01 <ais523> also, everyone knows about triplocks nowadays
02:58:11 <ais523> although I don't think anyone else actually /uses/ them
02:58:41 <ais523> haha, I'd forgotten that waterfall3 actually /deleted its own decoys/ in order to stop sucralose_philip changing strategy :)
03:00:13 <ais523> delete your decoys, change your flag, and it falls off the end :)
03:00:36 <david_werecat> How did that affect its performance against other programs though?
03:00:50 <ais523> not a lot, it only did it if it detected a turtle/philip
03:01:13 <ais523> waterfall3 is pretty much made of special cases
03:01:15 <myndzi> interesting, i just read the freaking novel you wrote on waterfall3
03:01:30 <ais523> I don't /quite/ think it's the case that every program sent it down a different codepath
03:01:34 <ais523> but it must have been quite close ;)
03:01:50 <ais523> and then I only wrote a couple of lines about slowpoke
03:01:57 <ais523> because waterfall3 really is that much more complex than slowpoke is
03:02:15 <myndzi> funny that it took so long for the ideas wrt: timing detection to show profit
03:02:43 <myndzi> to be honest i never thought programs that complex would succeed
03:03:03 <myndzi> this game has stayed interesting longer than i figured on
03:03:15 <myndzi> but it's way too annoying to actually participate in now haha
03:03:24 <ais523> I don't know, you still have programs on the hill
03:03:30 <ais523> you can just try some simple programs and see what sticks
03:03:44 <ais523> !bfjoust the_first_program_ever [>[-]+]
03:03:44 <myndzi> yeah, but that's not as interesting ;)
03:03:45 <ion> “the freaking novel you wrote on waterfall3” – URL, please. :-)
03:03:48 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_the_first_program_ever: 9.3
03:04:06 <ion> Ok, thanks
03:04:07 <ais523> ion: http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust_strategies#2011 and scroll down a bit
03:04:18 <ais523> stop when you reach the wall of text
03:04:29 <myndzi> on the topic of updating the language
03:04:37 <ais523> the first program ever doesn't do to well nowadays
03:04:39 <myndzi> there seems to be one thing that was enabled by the better interpreter
03:04:48 <myndzi> that is somewhat common
03:04:56 <myndzi> which is basically setting up nested loops to operate as conditionals
03:05:05 <myndzi> it's a waste of memory and they never get processed
03:05:09 <myndzi> they just get used as ifs
03:05:23 <myndzi> so i think it would be fair to add something like an if-not-zero
03:05:37 <myndzi> since theoretically you can accomplish the same by nesting a bunch of loops to ridiculous length
03:05:40 <ais523> in fact, I strongly considered an alternative BF Joust where doing that was banned in order to make defence more interesting
03:05:42 <myndzi> it would make programs simpler to read etc.
03:05:53 <elliott> I strongly oppose the idea of adding an if construct
03:06:04 <elliott> the underlying language is still pure BF in bf joust now and it should stay that way IMO
03:06:20 <myndzi> it's simply a convenience
03:06:25 <myndzi> much like the % and * loops
03:06:31 <myndzi> it doesn't alter the language any
03:06:38 <elliott> well, it's a lot heavier a layer than a simple repetition system
03:06:47 <myndzi> except to make possible "larger" programs
03:06:58 <myndzi> not really.. it basically IS a simple repetition system
03:07:03 <myndzi> "start a loop that i don't expect to end"
03:07:14 <ais523> well, "a ifnonzero(b) c" is a[bc]c but unfortunately, that doesn't abbreviate to anything, not even using %
03:07:16 <myndzi> "i am only gonna write the first character, you can just assume the last one is there"
03:07:38 <ais523> however, it's quite common for b never to return, in which case if and while are equivalent
03:07:55 <myndzi> i forgot about the failure case
03:08:25 <myndzi> i dunno, it would be nice to make things more readable
03:08:50 <ais523> note that at least one program of mine, I was going to do that but it didn't fit into size limits, so I had to be more BFy
03:09:04 <ais523> also note: if you had arbitrary control structures, you'd never use the tape for computation ever
03:09:15 <ais523> (admittedly, generally you don't /anyway/, but waterfall3 does)
03:09:18 <myndzi> the size limits are merely practical, not theoretical ;p
03:09:37 <ais523> using the tape for computation is awkward because the opponent has a tendency of scribbling on it
03:09:43 <ais523> although you can safely do it /behind/ the opponent
03:10:30 <myndzi> i realize this is rather off the wall
03:10:43 <myndzi> 2) provide a mechanism for "if not zero, goto"
03:11:14 <monqy> are we making a new game in the spirit of bfjoust
03:11:26 <myndzi> i'm just talking about notation differences that might make it rather easier to read
03:11:35 <myndzi> the idea here is that things of the form
03:11:45 <itidus20> which has yet to become self aware
03:12:20 <myndzi> you know what i should just write explanations before i offer ideas
03:12:40 <myndzi> [a][b][c] isn't what i was trying to address
03:12:59 <myndzi> [a[b[c]]] can also be covered by that case
03:13:09 <myndzi> the need is for a time penalty of the appropriate amount of cycles
03:13:32 <myndzi> which i think is calculable
03:13:39 <myndzi> but i'm not sure this would really clean anything up much
03:13:39 <ais523> "time penalty" would be fatal to programming
03:13:45 <ais523> because it makes you vulnerable to triplocking
03:13:47 <myndzi> by 'time penalty' i mean ]]]]
03:13:55 <myndzi> doesn't get processed as if it was ]
03:14:23 <myndzi> but what am i even talking about, we don't indend to end/loop with this
03:14:29 <myndzi> i'm sick, i will just be quiet ;)
03:15:11 <itidus20> i have no relevance to bfjoust. but i can see that the nice thing about the bfjoust page on the esolang wiki is it's the sort of thing that could show up as a paperback at a flea market.
03:16:38 <itidus20> its the sort of text someone could just pick up and read .. with an introductory chapter explaining what brainfuck is and what bfjoust is
03:16:45 <elliott> david_werecat: btw, you should link to a specific version of the file
03:16:57 <elliott> in case it falls of the hill or gets changed
03:17:04 <elliott> (if it gets changed, then you can update the link when you update the description, ofc)
03:17:12 <myndzi> i regret fucking with slowrush
03:17:40 <myndzi> after wix stopped fucking with wiggle3
03:17:42 <david_werecat> elliott: The file link is to the most recent version, do you mean the animation version?
03:17:43 <myndzi> like a year later i was like
03:17:45 <myndzi> HA I GET THE LAST WORD
03:17:49 <myndzi> so i tweaked the constants
03:17:54 <elliott> david_werecat: not latest, that's the point
03:17:57 <myndzi> and it didn't really help so i put em back
03:17:59 <elliott> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot.hg/index.cgi/raw-file/80f20eeecd87/ais523_slowpoke.bfjoust
03:18:00 <elliott> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/david_werecat_dreadnought.bfjoust
03:18:06 <elliott> the latter breaks when it falls off the hill
03:18:08 <myndzi> but now it's not technically an uninterrupted run since... god i have no idea when
03:18:14 <elliott> the former doesn't (it points to a specific version and will never change)
03:19:51 <david_werecat> BTW, I don't think dreadnought is going to be knocked off anytime soon.
03:20:06 <myndzi> it might well be changed though ;p
03:20:17 <ais523> !bfjoust death_to_defence (>)*8(>([(+)*24[-{[+++[+++]]}>([(+)*23[-{[+++[+++]]}>([(+)*22[-{[+++[+++]]}>([(+)*21[-{[+++[+++]]}>([(+)*20[-{[+++[+++]]}>([(+)*19[-{[+++[+++]]}>([(+)*18[-{[+++[+++]]}>([(+)*17[-{[+++[+++]]}>([(+)*16[-{[+++[+++]]}>([(+)*15[-{[+++[+++]]}>([(+)*14[-{[+++[+++]]}>([(+)*13[-{[+++[+++]]}>]])%256]])%256]])%256]])%256]])%256]])%256]])%256]])%256]])%256]])%256]])%256]])%256)*-1
03:20:20 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_death_to_defence: 15.8
03:20:29 <ais523> elliott: so there you go, the strategy which I believe beats all defence strategies
03:20:51 <myndzi> that's not really the point
03:21:04 <myndzi> it makes an interesting counterexample?
03:21:08 <ais523> it isn't tuned to beat attack strategies /at all/
03:21:14 <elliott> myndzi: well, it's meant to trivialise the game
03:21:21 <ais523> but the problem is that you can just drop its clear loop into something else
03:21:26 <elliott> I suppose the problem is there's too many attack programs on the hill
03:21:33 <elliott> why not try it with one of your warriors?
03:21:40 <ais523> hmm, it loses to the waterfalls
03:26:23 <ais523> !bfjoust death_to_defence (>)*8(>(+)*24([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*23([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*22([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*21([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*20([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*19([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*18([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*17([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*16([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*15([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*14([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*13([-{[+++[+++]]}>])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999)*-1
03:26:26 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_death_to_defence: 13.9
03:27:49 <ais523> beats anticipation, defend9.75, triplock2/3, waterfall2/3
03:27:54 <ais523> various other assorted programs too
03:28:11 <ais523> /doesn't/ beat vibration, because it needs a separate countervibrate and I didn't bother to add one, but doing that is simple enough
03:28:48 <ais523> (the base program for that is the standard (>)*8(>[-])*21, btw, it just has a much more complex clear loop)
03:29:07 <ais523> (which is a two-cycle offset clear, except against defence)
03:29:29 <ais523> and defence is detected via a 100% reliable mechanism
03:30:00 <ais523> (the opponent /must/ be changing their flag value during the clear in order for it to be detected)
03:30:19 <ais523> the different numbers on the offset clear are to beat anticipation
03:31:09 <myndzi> i don't know what anticipation does
03:31:19 <myndzi> i suppose it anticipates? ;p
03:31:33 <ais523> it sets its flag to nonzero the cycle /after/ the opponent zeroes it
03:31:38 <ais523> by measuring the opponent's timings
03:31:52 <ais523> this puts it into its anti-vibration loop (because it would, wouldn't it?)
03:32:02 <ais523> then it uses a counter-anti-vibration lock
03:32:20 <myndzi> and then an anti-counter-vibrating-furry-leather-strapon lock-and-chain
03:32:32 <ais523> that sounds like what Gregor would come up with :)
03:33:45 <ais523> I was going to add this to skyscraper, but come to think of it, there's no real need
03:33:50 <ais523> skyscraper detects defence well enough as it is
03:34:44 <ais523> !bfjoust death_to_defence (>++++++)*8(>(+)*24([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*23([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*22([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*21([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*20([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*19([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*18([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*17([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*16([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*15([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*14([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*13([-{[+++[+++]]}>])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999)*-1
03:34:47 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_death_to_defence: 21.0
03:34:51 <ais523> let's put some decoys in there, give it a chance
03:35:03 <ais523> !bfjoust death_to_defence (>++++++)*4(>-----)*4(>(+)*24([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*23([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*22([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*21([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*20([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*19([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*18([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*17([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*16([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*15([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*14([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*13([-{[+++[+++]]}>])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999)*-1
03:35:06 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_death_to_defence: 23.5
03:36:12 <ais523> !bfjoust death_to_defence (>+++)*4(>---)*4((-)*20<)*4((+)*20<)*4(+)*30(>)*8(>(+)*24([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*23([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*22([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*21([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*20([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*19([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*18([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*17([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*16([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*15([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*14([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*13([-{[+++[+++]]}>])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999)*-1
03:36:15 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_death_to_defence: 39.9
03:36:41 <ais523> #8, just below space_elevator
03:37:28 <elliott> why 999 instead of -1, out of curiosity?
03:37:38 <ais523> elliott: it has to be a finite number higher than 256
03:37:53 <ais523> and I wanted to avoid multiples of 256 due to weird coincidences
03:37:59 <ais523> and that's the time at which it breaks out of the original clear loop
03:38:03 <ais523> and moves onto the counterdefend loop
03:38:12 <ais523> ([+++[+++]] in this example)
03:38:51 <elliott> isn't 999 a bit big, because of the cycle limi?
03:39:08 <ais523> it won't get anywhere near the cycle limit, which is 10000
03:39:16 <ais523> but I'm not seeing timeout draws
03:39:22 <ais523> oh, it's 100000, not 10000
03:40:30 <ais523> !bfjoust death_to_defence (>+++)*4(>---)*4((-)*20<)*4((+)*20<)*4(+)*30(>)*8(>(+)*24([-{[+++]}>(+)*23([-{[+++]}>(+)*22([-{[+++]}>(+)*21([-{[+++]}>(+)*20([-{[+++]}>(+)*19([-{[+++]}>(+)*18([-{[+++]}>(+)*17([-{[+++]}>(+)*16([-{[+++]}>(+)*15([-{[+++]}>(+)*14([-{[+++]}>(+)*13([-{[+++]}>])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999)*-1
03:40:33 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_death_to_defence: 39.9
03:40:40 <ais523> thought that'd be equivalent, and it's shorter
03:42:23 <elliott> such an uncreative name :p
03:42:54 <ais523> !bfjoust death_to_defence http://sprunge.us/dcIN
03:42:58 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_death_to_defence: 14.7
03:43:02 <ais523> !bfjoust death_to_defence (>+++)*4(>---)*4((-)*20<)*4((+)*20<)*4(+)*30(>)*8(>(+)*24([-{[+++]}>(+)*23([-{[+++]}>(+)*22([-{[+++]}>(+)*21([-{[+++]}>(+)*20([-{[+++]}>(+)*19([-{[+++]}>(+)*18([-{[+++]}>(+)*17([-{[+++]}>(+)*16([-{[+++]}>(+)*15([-{[+++]}>(+)*14([-{[+++]}>(+)*13([-{[+++]}>])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999)*-1
03:43:05 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_death_to_defence: 39.9
03:43:12 <ais523> it drops /that far/ if I add a simple antishudder?
03:43:51 <ais523> !bfjoust death_to_defence http://sprunge.us/NIFA
03:43:54 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_death_to_defence: 41.1
03:44:33 <ais523> I got that antishudder from waterfall3; it's a bit long, but it's tried and tested
03:45:08 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
03:45:44 <elliott> I see it loses to counterpoke
03:46:01 <elliott> ais523: you should try using that as the clear loop in an existing good program or something
03:46:35 <ais523> but none of my recent existing good programs would benefit from it
03:46:51 <ais523> except perhaps counterpoke
03:47:00 <elliott> the game hasn't had enough modification and blending of other people's programs for ages
03:47:07 <ais523> but the amazing score here doesn't seem to be due to the clear loop
03:47:20 <elliott> well, you said it was a drop-in to another program
03:47:23 <elliott> which is why I suggested that
03:47:25 <ais523> it's just a simple fast rush program which doesn't have to worry about defence
03:48:12 <ais523> !bfjoust death_to_defence_with_a_normal_clear_loop (>+++)*4(>---)*4((-)*20<)*4((+)*20<)*4(+)*30(>)*8(>(+)*19[-])*21
03:48:15 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_death_to_defence_with_a_normal_clear_loop: 38.1
03:48:39 <ais523> !bfjoust death_to_defence_with_a_normal_clear_loop <
03:48:42 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_death_to_defence_with_a_normal_clear_loop: 0.0
03:48:46 <elliott> you misinterpreted me though
03:48:52 <elliott> i did not mean s/dtd's clear loop/someone else's/
03:49:19 <ais523> someone else's program =~ s/clear loop/dtd's clear loop/
03:49:20 <elliott> 04:21 <ais523> but the problem is that you can just drop its clear loop into something else
03:50:06 <ais523> oh, it's also important that the 999 is not even approximately divisible by 256
03:50:14 <ais523> or you can create a modified anticipation to beat it
03:50:34 <ais523> …999 is sort-of divisble by 256, isn't it
03:50:35 <myndzi> sounds like you just want something relatively prime with a large step
03:50:44 <myndzi> kinda like corewars bomb steps
03:51:07 <ais523> !bfjoust death_to_defence http://sprunge.us/UgLO
03:51:08 <elliott> ais523: pick the number least divisible by 256
03:51:10 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_death_to_defence: 32.6
03:51:16 <ais523> what did I do wrong there?
03:51:24 <ais523> !bfjoust death_to_defence http://sprunge.us/NIFA
03:51:27 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_death_to_defence: 40.4
03:51:34 <ais523> not that large of hill effects
03:51:43 <ais523> that's the one that was scoring 41 earlier, hill effects have pushed it down to 40
03:52:25 <ais523> it seems to be winning just by out-decoying everyone else
03:53:00 <ais523> it is kind-of vulnerable to pokes, though
03:53:42 <ais523> oh well, that'll just mean more points for counterpoke :D
03:55:06 <myndzi> you're going for the triforce of bfjoust
03:55:18 <myndzi> it's like i'll form the head!
03:55:37 <elliott> quintopia: we need yr scoring system btw
03:55:54 <elliott> ais523: so does it really beat every defence strategy?
03:56:07 <ais523> that I know of, at least
03:56:21 <ais523> and anything that relies on locks that only work against one type of clear loop, it beats
03:58:25 <ais523> !bfjoust death_to_defence http://sprunge.us/XUOQ
03:58:28 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_death_to_defence: 49.4
03:58:32 <ais523> trying out something that skips zeros
03:59:03 <ais523> anyway, it beats it by changing strategy after a clear has failed for too long
04:00:24 <ais523> !bfjoust death_to_defence http://sprunge.us/Rbdi
04:00:27 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_death_to_defence: 52.1
04:00:31 <ais523> tweaks for very long tapes
04:01:08 <myndzi> [..+++++------] is very distinctive looking :)
04:01:26 <myndzi> it's like LASERS PEW PEW
04:01:27 <ais523> myndzi: it's an anti-shudder
04:01:38 <myndzi> i know.. i invented them! ;p
04:01:47 <ais523> it's not up into the 70s
04:01:54 <ais523> and it's basically a good old-fashioned slow rush program
04:02:07 <ais523> using a 2pass decoy setup (the first 2/3 of 3pass)
04:02:18 <elliott> ais523: less than .5 before you're at #4
04:02:39 <elliott> (though be careful of over-fitting...)
04:03:18 <myndzi> probably shifting scores?
04:03:23 <elliott> david_werecat: probably as a result of hill effects caused by new programs
04:03:33 <ais523> all the good poke programs beat death_to_defence
04:03:42 <ais523> I need to put some sort of antipoking in, I guess
04:07:33 <ais523> !bfjoust death_to_defence http://sprunge.us/AdUJ
04:07:37 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_death_to_defence: 51.0
04:07:37 <ais523> this'll probably drop the score
04:07:43 <ais523> but not by much, it seems
04:08:01 <ais523> !bfjoust death_to_defence http://sprunge.us/Rbdi
04:08:04 <ais523> didn't give it any new wins, anyway
04:08:04 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_death_to_defence: 52.1
04:08:07 <ais523> so it's not really worth doing
04:09:17 <ais523> !bfjoust death_to_defence http://sprunge.us/cMiQ
04:09:21 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_death_to_defence: 45.8
04:09:26 <ais523> !bfjoust death_to_defence http://sprunge.us/Rbdi
04:09:29 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_death_to_defence: 52.1
04:10:30 <ais523> dtd and counterpoke have most (all?) of the programs covered between them
04:12:50 <david_werecat> Not quite, Gregor_ill_bet_you_have_four_decoys, ais523_undermine, atehwa_test_blah and david_werecat_juggernaut beat both of them
04:13:17 <ais523> …how does undermine beat death_to_defence? I'll have to check
04:13:54 <ais523> ill_bet_you_have_four_decoys is surprisingly hard to beat with a good program, you need at least four decoys to be competitive nowadays :)
04:14:48 <ais523> seems undermine simply does it with tripwire avoidance
04:16:41 <ais523> !bfjoust death_to_defence http://sprunge.us/gZUM
04:16:42 <myndzi> Score for ais523_death_to_defence: 14.8
04:16:44 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_death_to_defence: 49.8
04:17:32 <ais523> trying something experimental
04:17:48 <ais523> !bfjoust death_to_defence http://sprunge.us/NiFH
04:17:51 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_death_to_defence: 47.8
04:18:42 <ais523> !bfjoust death_to_defence http://sprunge.us/WSZF
04:18:45 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_death_to_defence: 41.2
04:19:08 <ais523> !bfjoust death_to_defence http://sprunge.us/Rbdi
04:19:11 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_death_to_defence: 52.1
04:19:31 <ais523> (I was adding in some tripwire avoidance, but it didn't help against enough and hurt against lots more)
04:20:20 <ais523> !bfjoust defend7 http://sprunge.us/BTjd
04:20:23 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_defend7: 11.8
04:20:27 <ais523> let's see how it works nowadays
04:21:04 <ais523> !bfjoust defend5 http://sprunge.us/DVdY
04:21:07 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_defend5: 10.5
04:21:15 <elliott> remember when your name wasn't autoprefixed
04:21:33 <ais523> it's a bad day to be a defence program
04:22:16 <ais523> !bfjoust tripstridewire (>)*9[(-----[+]>)*9[[+]]]>>[>(-----[+]>)*11[[+]]]>>[>(-----[+]>)*13[[+]]]>>[>(-----[+]>)*13[[+]]]>>[>(-----[+]>)*11[[+]]]>>[>(-----[+]>)*9[[+]]]>>[>(-----[+]>)*7[[+]]]>>[>(-----[+]>)*5[[+]]]>>[>(-----[+]>)*3[[+]]]>>[>(-----[+]>)*1[[+]]]>[[+]]>[[+]]
04:22:19 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_tripstridewire: 20.4
04:22:19 <ais523> trying some old programs again
04:22:23 <ais523> to see if they even touch the hill
04:23:15 <elliott> ais523: you don't remember
04:23:21 <elliott> people just added programs without any name prefix
04:23:25 <ais523> !bfjoust speedy1 >>>>>>>>>(-[+[+[---]]]>)*21
04:23:27 <elliott> then we started prefixing our names manually
04:23:28 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_speedy1: 20.1
04:23:30 <ais523> was that before or after the hill was upside-down?
04:23:41 <elliott> first few days or week or so
04:24:00 <ais523> so it seems we're not facing hill effects really; the programs have just got /that/ much better
04:26:53 <david_werecat> I guess it would be possible to get an archive of all the old programs from the repository?
04:28:56 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
04:29:01 <elliott> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot.hg/
04:29:26 <elliott> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot.hg/index.cgi/shortlog/9a683e7e8d50 the beginning
04:29:54 <elliott> ais523: http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot.hg/index.cgi/rev/45eec5187d79 people named them like this
04:30:09 <elliott> looks like you might have started the "nick_program" thing
04:30:49 <elliott> !bfjoust ais523_vff_experimental >>>++++<----<++++<(-)*127(--++)*2500[[[>[---]+]+]+]
04:30:52 <EgoBot> Score for elliott_ais523_vff_experimental: 21.1
04:33:11 <elliott> ais523_death_to_defence.bfjoust vs elliott_ais523_vff_experimental.bfjoust
04:33:11 <elliott> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -42
04:33:11 <elliott> ais523_death_to_defence.bfjoust wins.
04:33:45 <ais523> vibration_fool_fast :)
04:34:00 <ais523> and yes, that's a defence program, what did you /expect/ to happen?
04:34:20 * ais523 adds flexible timer clear to the wiki
04:35:12 <ais523> I think in future, the main use of defensive elements will be for things like skyscraper
04:35:28 <ais523> which feel like a defence program, but doesn't use any sort of lock (although it /does/ use a tripwire)
04:38:24 <elliott> so, BF Joust lives another day?
04:38:36 <ais523> elliott: david_werecat_juggernaut.bfjoust vs elliott_ais523_vff_experimental.bfjous t<><><><><><><><><><>< <><><><><><><><><><>< 2elliott_ais523_vff_experimental.bfjoust wins.
04:38:42 <ais523> it's not hopelessly broken, just shallower than I'd like
04:38:45 <elliott> ais523: IMO, death_to_defence is probably notable enough for a description even if it hasn't gotten to #1
04:38:58 <ais523> I put its main strategy on the wiki in the strategies section
04:39:04 <elliott> someone should tell G. that BF Joust is still being innovated on today :)
04:39:09 <ais523> well, the one that doesn't really matter
04:39:12 <ais523> elliott: you can if you like
04:39:17 <elliott> btw, your code block is broken
04:39:38 <ais523> that's intentional, if you mean the line of non-codeblock in it
04:43:12 <ais523> well, it's a wiki, if there's a formatting you'd prefer that isn't misleading you can fix it
04:45:40 <elliott> "Note that no defense programs are simple (the very nature of a defensive strategy makes this so)"
04:46:08 <myndzi> he doesn't mean the strategy is simple
04:46:11 <myndzi> but the implementation
04:46:15 <myndzi> which is certainly true
04:46:17 <elliott> well all the defence concepts are as simple as attack concepts
04:46:28 <elliott> it's just that you need complex implementations to be effective in practice -- but the same applies to attack too
04:46:28 <myndzi> but he didn't say the strategy is simple
04:46:31 <myndzi> he said the *programs* are
04:46:38 <elliott> ok, it's the parenthical that's wrong then
04:46:48 <elliott> (but plenty of defence programs are simple, they're just bad too; same as attack)
04:46:56 <myndzi> the nature of a defensive *strategy* makes defense *programs* complex
04:47:22 <myndzi> i don't think anyone would count shudder-class programs as "defensive" even though that's technically true
04:47:35 <myndzi> but it's possible to write effective attack programs much more simply than equally effective defense programs
04:47:37 <elliott> in fact, so does the article
04:47:54 <myndzi> just saying, i took the meaning of the sentence and it makes sense to me :)
04:51:01 <ais523> elliott: leave vff_experimental on the leaderboard, btw
04:51:19 <ais523> it beating dreadnought is just too hilarious
04:52:33 <ais523> if only by the smallest of margins that doesn't involve a draw
04:55:35 <david_werecat> So that anti-triplock is still causing suicides off the tape...
04:58:59 <ais523> working around triplocks can be awkward if you haven't had practice
05:01:12 <david_werecat> I've tried double bracketing the main clear loop, but it hurts the score.
05:01:44 <ais523> there's a lazy way, which is just to, just after the place in your code where a cell is cleared, put a > then copy your entire attack loop there
05:03:36 <david_werecat> That's what I tried. I'm still working out a better way to do that.
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05:07:07 <lambdabot> Plugin `tell' failed with: Prelude.head: empty list
05:08:48 <lambdabot> http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/COMMANDS
05:08:50 <ion> > join ping
05:09:07 <lambdabot> http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/COMMANDS
05:09:41 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at chara...
05:09:47 <lambdabot> http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/COMMANDS
05:09:57 <ais523> it seems lambdabot ignores stray BOMs, but not stray zwnjs
05:09:59 <lambdabot> http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/COMMANDS
05:10:15 <david_werecat> !bfjoust dreadnought http://tinypaste.com/af8efaef/save.php?hash=56c3bf21ce6661a6bc28e93a41a73e7c
05:10:19 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_dreadnought: 70.1
05:10:29 <shachaf> !bfjoust ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++>-
05:10:29 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
05:10:36 <shachaf> !bfjoust HI ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++>-
05:10:38 <EgoBot> Score for shachaf_HI: 10.7
05:11:31 <ais523> david_werecat: draw with skyscraper?
05:11:35 <EgoBot> Score for myndzi_lol: 11.0
05:11:54 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
05:12:02 <EgoBot> Score for shachaf_myndzi: 7.9
05:12:29 <ais523> and the losses are counterpoke, omega_turtle, and waterfall3
05:12:46 <ais523> insidious wasn't likely to stay beating it for long
05:13:32 <ais523> myndzi: lol presumably works better than a nop only against turtles?
05:14:15 <ais523> there has to be some reason why flag at 1 beats flag at 128
05:14:36 <myndzi> stuff that ignores or decoys the first nonzero
05:14:43 <myndzi> or just overwrites it without noticing maybe
05:14:52 <myndzi> or isn't specifically designed to attack 128
05:14:59 <myndzi> or just a little luck ;)
05:15:31 <ais523> it'd have to be zeroing the cell in order to distinguish 1 from 128
05:15:51 <ais523> in order to avoid winning at that point, it'd have to unzero it again the next cycle
05:16:28 <myndzi> there's plenty of-- around
05:16:35 <myndzi> i was just curious what would happen
05:16:55 <ais523> !bfjoust stupid_vibration >(+-)*-1
05:17:00 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_stupid_vibration: 6.5
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05:18:03 <ais523> hmm, challenge: write a program that beats exactly one other program on exactly one length and polarity (and loses to every other program on every length/polarity)
05:19:08 <myndzi> i was gonna make two programs ;)
05:19:12 <myndzi> but even then it's kinda hard
05:19:38 <ais523> exactly one length is easy, but with polarity, not so easy
05:20:08 <ais523> !bfjoust >>>>>>-[>>>(-)*128](>)*1000
05:20:09 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
05:20:14 <ais523> !bfjoust marginally_wins >>>>>>-[>>>(-)*128](>)*1000
05:20:17 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_marginally_wins: 1.5
05:20:48 <ais523> wtf, it's actually /beating/ some programs
05:20:54 <ais523> !bfjoust marginally_wins >>>>>>-[>>>(-)*128](<)*1000
05:20:57 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_marginally_wins: 1.5
05:21:14 <ais523> !bfjoust marginally_wins >>>>>>-[(<)*1000]>>>(-)*128
05:21:17 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_marginally_wins: 0.0
05:21:49 <ais523> !bfjoust marginally_wins >>>>>>--[(<)*1000]>>>(-)*128
05:21:52 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_marginally_wins: 0.0
05:22:19 <ais523> beats counterpoke on length 12 kettle
05:22:29 <ais523> and no other single-case wins anywhere
05:22:45 <ais523> that wasn't too hard to construct…
05:22:59 <ais523> (pretty interesting given that it can't even flag-clear on length 12 kettle
05:23:02 <ais523> myndzi: non-reversed polarity
05:23:33 <elliott> they're both as normal as each other
05:23:43 <myndzi> one is the opposite of what you wrote though
05:23:44 <elliott> that's why you need neutral names, like sieve, and kettle
05:23:48 <elliott> ais523: actually, kettle is reversed, I think
05:23:57 <elliott> pretty sure it's "sieve and kettle", "normal and reversed"
05:24:02 <myndzi> i'd totally just call em positive and negative
05:24:08 <myndzi> negative = opposite of
05:24:11 <elliott> myndzi: that's really confusing
05:24:14 <elliott> because it works both ways round
05:24:19 <myndzi> only if you never took grade 1 math
05:24:34 <myndzi> you mean *combinations*?
05:24:51 <HackEgo> 698) <Phantom_Hoover> Dinner? At two? <fizzie> It's four here already. See, UTC+2. You need to add a couple of hours. Or was that subtract? I can never get those straight.
05:24:59 <myndzi> i don't remember what grade they taught the negative sign in
05:25:10 <ais523> beautiful: http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/egojsout/?l=2f375a1d0bc6000e54ea3e14763f90dd87b5888c&r=ee72388f6d3cd927ddb7762853c3b4275c920ec1&t=12
05:25:15 <ais523> the (-)*128 is completely irrelevant
05:25:26 <ais523> unless it affects the behaviour of some program, which is unlikely
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06:19:43 <zzo38> Which calendar and year numbering do you like? * BC/AD * BCE/CE * Discordian * Stardate * Holocene * Tropical year * UNIX * Pax * International Fixed * Astronomical year numbering * Mayan long count * Chinese * ISO week date *
06:26:49 <Sgeo> elliott, no way you don't know what I
06:26:52 <Sgeo> I'm talking about
06:27:32 <Sgeo> I once promised that I'd modify an open-source script that was competing with my product, I never got around to it
06:27:36 <Sgeo> Maybe I should do that soon
06:27:48 <Sgeo> Person thought that I was reselling the open-source script, but I wasn't
06:28:56 <Sgeo> https://www.xstreetsl.com/modules.php?name=Marketplace&file=discussions&ItemID=374979 click cancel
07:02:54 <zzo38> That kind of Earth Standard Time is too strange
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07:10:53 <zzo38> Is mathematics a lifeform?
07:10:56 <itidus20> zzo38: i'm looking into something interesting(debatable) which might be up your alley(debatable). warioware diy ... being a proprietry game about making games i know it's not extremely relevant here(debatable), but it's <insert gibberish term>
07:11:39 <zzo38> itidus20: I don't know.
07:12:54 <itidus20> i guess nintendo games are more on my level than esolangs.. but i am studying how it actually works..
07:14:20 <elliott> `addquote <zzo38> Is mathematics a lifeform? <itidus20> zzo38: i'm looking into something interesting(debatable) which might be up your alley(debatable). warioware diy ... being a proprietry game about making games i know it's not extremely relevant here(debatable), but it's <insert gibberish term> <zzo38> itidus20: I don't know.
07:14:28 <HackEgo> 843) <zzo38> Is mathematics a lifeform? <itidus20> zzo38: i'm looking into something interesting(debatable) which might be up your alley(debatable). warioware diy ... being a proprietry game about making games i know it's not extremely relevant here(debatable), but it's <insert gibberish term> <zzo38> itidus20: I don't know.
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08:26:31 <Taneb> `welcome UN_MANITAS_MADRI
08:26:34 <HackEgo> UN_MANITAS_MADRI: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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09:23:43 <itidus20> "Looked for a secret base in a dream" http://oi46.tinypic.com/16leoo3.jpg
09:27:49 <fungot> itidus20: i thought nne? fnord?) altitude info and whatnot... i gave up
09:28:05 <fungot> itidus20: i also seem to forget it. the reason member confused me is that i need
09:31:35 <itidus20> it's almost like advertising a restaurant
09:31:55 <itidus20> welcome to the home of fried chicken
09:32:23 <olsner> the main branch of a big chain of boiled cat restaurants
09:35:53 -!- qfr has left.
09:36:12 <itidus20> Language C/C++ Perl PHP Java/-Script brainfuck Engrish
09:37:06 <itidus20> its from the same website as the link to the home of the boiled cat
09:37:18 <itidus20> i am surprised to see brainfuck on the list though
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09:49:05 <itidus20> theres no way these translations are remotely accurate
09:52:53 <itidus20> "I had come out a rainbow on my way home last Friday. I say it's large enough for the first time may not fit on the camera can see the both ends are rare."
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09:55:14 <itidus20> and... i'll try to wrap it up with "Yesterday was the end of student drinking in pairs. Grilled chicken pieces and a thorn bird of fear. Students are high 6,500 yen."
10:01:07 <itidus20> "Made to seek good and quiet. It is the only resonance in trouble. What a little anxious Woonsocket"
10:01:55 <olsner> enjoy your matrix of woonsocketry
10:02:26 <itidus20> this is not good for my thinking
10:02:48 <itidus20> but it's incredibly fun for my imagination
10:04:13 <itidus20> oh. this diary entry is titled "Idol collage which is made by superimposing the photo of a celebrity's face on a pornographic image by using a computer [2008/11/01 00:44:00]"
10:05:20 -!- ais523 has set topic: warning: "hi" is frequently misinterpreted as a threat | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
10:06:39 <HackEgo> 6) <Quas_NaArt> His body should be given to science. <GKennethR> He's alive :P <GreenReaper> Even so. \ 9) <Madelon> Lil`Cube: you had cavity searches? <Lil`Cube> not yet <Lil`Cube> trying to thou, just so I can check it off on my list of things to expirence \ 13) <Warrigal> "You're at that stage in your life where you're going to want to do some things in private." --my mom \ 16) <fizzie after embedding some of his
10:07:03 <olsner> hmm, that was not entirely successful
10:07:13 <HackEgo> 460) <NihilistDandy> Non sequitur is my forte <NihilistDandy> On-topic discussion is my piano <Taneb> Bowls of sugary breakfast cereal is my mezzoforte <Taneb> Full fat milk is my pianissimo <Taneb> On which note, I'm hungry
10:12:18 <olsner> nice usability failure, they have a contact lens working as a camera and screen, and when it recognizes the face of an assassin he gets a message
10:13:37 <olsner> hmm, "usability"? not sure, but fail anyway
10:19:25 <olsner> nice that they included simon pegg for comic relief though
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10:38:33 <rszeno> i usualy read logs before i join the channel, but not today
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10:42:23 <ais523> we've been advancing the state of BF Joust
10:42:40 <ais523> david_werecat has been making programs that beat almost everything, I've been coming up with creative ways not to lose to them
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10:54:00 <rszeno> is a zero sum game, Nash equilibrium?
10:54:56 <rszeno> i have no idea how to define the problem to be solved
10:55:23 <Taneb> I don't think it's a Nash equilibrium
10:57:00 <Taneb> But I'm far from an expert at Game Theory
10:57:27 <ais523> rszeno: a nash equilibrium is a set of strategies a game, where no single player can get better off by changing their strategy
10:57:32 <ais523> *strategies for a game
10:57:56 <ais523> as in, given that all the other players follow their plan, you should follow yours too
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10:59:02 <rszeno> yes but sometime is possible to exists a strategy to win all times, in same cases
11:01:30 <rszeno> i don't remember the name of the game, something with 0 and 1, three in a line or more. I remember the one who start first and follow a 'plan' always win
11:02:59 <ais523> if you have a strategy that always wins, that's a nash equilibrium for you, no matter what your opponent is planning, as you can't be any better off than winning
11:03:12 <ais523> and it's a nash equilibrium for them too, as they can't do any better than losing
11:03:20 <ais523> so you have a nash equilibrium altogether
11:13:22 <rszeno> maybe i'm wrong but some constraint imposed by bf joust rules like number of cycles 100000, set of input chars, and aditional the lenght of the program could make possible to generate, brute force, a huge number of possible programs( strategies in our case) and select or at least analize them
11:14:47 <rszeno> will too many combination?
11:16:20 <rszeno> when i see a interesting 'problem' i always look for a possible solution
11:35:27 <Taneb> The first bit of my computer arrived today
11:43:17 <Gregor> There is no feeling worse than needing to buy something, but being awake before the store is open.
11:47:13 <olsner> how about waking up after it closes?
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11:49:51 <HackEgo> ssue: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
11:50:49 <Taneb> Do you live in Hexham?
11:51:03 <Taneb> Do you live in Finland?
11:51:31 <Taneb> How did you get into esolangs?
11:52:02 <ssue> by someone's introduction
11:52:09 <ssue> actually... in here
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12:01:50 <Taneb> What's your favourite esoang?
12:03:07 <ssue> I think "aheui" made by puzzlet is my best favourite
12:03:41 <ssue> it's made of "Hangul" characters
12:03:54 <ssue> but not in Korean language, actually
12:03:55 <Taneb> I've never used that one
12:04:40 <ssue> http://puzzlet.org/personal/wiki.php/%EC%95%84%ED%9D%AC~Specification here you can find more details
12:04:57 <Taneb> http://dangermouse.net/esoteric/piet.html
12:07:04 <ssue> looks interesting
12:07:42 <ssue> colours are the source code?
12:08:08 <ais523> source code's in image form, indeed
12:08:14 <ais523> so it makes sense to lex it as colours
12:08:24 <ais523> (although it's ceased to be color-related by the time it's parsed)
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13:48:10 <Phantom_Hoover> OK so the HIB Psychonauts binary is crashing with a floating point error and I can find no documentation of this anywhere else on the internet.
13:48:10 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
14:32:25 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: probably it's dividing by zero
14:34:03 <olsner> try using a number that is not zero
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14:47:22 <olsner> if that's what you want, sure
14:47:34 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I was about to download that but it's 4G
14:47:38 <ais523> I'll wait until later, I think
14:47:49 <ais523> when I can better figure out space management and have a more reliable connection
14:48:37 <Phantom_Hoover> It's so liberating to have a hard drive that I'm basically never going to have to grub for space on.
14:48:53 <Phantom_Hoover> I remember when I was stuck on the family laptop and there was like 2G of free space.
14:51:02 <fizzie> There are too many games in the Bundle. I did a bit of LIMBO yesterday, and the intro of Bastion today, but haven't gotten to Psychonauts at all.
14:52:05 <Phantom_Hoover> That floating-point bug happens like right at the start of actual gameplay.
14:52:27 <Phantom_Hoover> The shortness may come from my superfluous free time, though.
14:52:53 <fizzie> Based on the intro bit, I kinda-sorta suck at it, but that's what I do when it comes to anything at all actiony.
14:55:07 <Phantom_Hoover> I spent most of it alternating between mashing space and the mouse buttons with the machete and musket and running away and sniping with the machete's alt-fire thing.
14:58:48 <fizzie> I'm not sure what space does, I've been playing it with a pad.
15:01:47 <Phantom_Hoover> It does that dodge thing which results in some good old Zelda-style "roll across the map" action.
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15:08:15 <fizzie> They're A, B and X, respectively. Well, cross, circle and square physically, but it says "gamepad not detected" unless I enable the X360 controller fakery mode.
15:20:35 <fizzie> I've just used the Steam versions.
15:27:01 <david_werecat> !bfjoust dreadnought http://tinypaste.com/caab8d2c/save.php?hash=da1da4f0baff73448dd35a69484e9670
15:27:04 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_dreadnought: 71.4
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15:40:02 * Taneb reached Axe Proficiency level 1!
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15:52:55 <olsner> ... looks like Taneb exercised his Axe Proficiency on his internet connection
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16:06:44 <fizzie> david_werecat: Did you just win?
16:07:38 <fizzie> Oh, okay. I tend not to check.
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17:33:31 <Taneb> zzo38, some of these functions in Prelude.Generalize are too general to describe easily with my limited describing ability
17:38:40 <zzo38> Taneb: O, well, it could be described as a generalize version of something else, giving some examples of the generalizations
17:38:56 <Taneb> choice and count right now
17:41:22 <zzo38> Both of those names are based on Parsec but for any Alternative
17:41:48 <Taneb> This is the downside of never having used Parsec, heh
17:42:28 <zzo38> The type is too restrictive f should be Applicative rather than Alternative; I will fix that in next version.
17:42:34 <Taneb> There are a couple of very small changes I'd make, mostly using liftM instead of fmap in a couple of places to make the thingy smaller
17:42:57 <zzo38> I mean the constraint
17:43:08 <Taneb> That's what I was talking about too
17:43:50 <Taneb> So, (<>>=) and (>>==) don't have the Functor requirement
17:44:25 <Taneb> Also, please put null next to unnull in the export list?
17:44:30 <zzo38> I just dislike that Functor is not a superclass of Monad
17:44:35 <zzo38> Taneb: OK, I will move that too
17:45:17 <Taneb> The Functor/Monad problem is a problem, but it's a problem
17:45:24 <Taneb> That made a lot more sense in my head
17:45:48 <Taneb> It's a problem that exists, and the problem being fixed won't break anything
17:46:09 <zzo38> I moved unnull/null in the export list and changed the constraint of count
17:48:21 <zzo38> I will upload the changes later today
17:51:33 <zzo38> But show me what you have so far?
17:53:01 <Taneb> I've just begun changing my style, because I'm indecisive and excessively terse
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17:56:35 <quintopia> david_werecat: what did you change with that last sub?
17:57:18 <david_werecat> I improved the anti-triplock code, which also made it much faster.
17:58:24 <quintopia> i coldnt download it Phantom_Hoover
17:58:39 <quintopia> but i dont have enough ram to run it anyway
17:58:56 <quintopia> the torrnent kept sayingpermissin denied from thewebseed
17:58:57 <Phantom_Hoover> It even tells you when you click the direct download link, use the torrent.
17:58:58 <david_werecat> The anti-triplock is a dual nested loop that leads into a copy of the clear routine.
17:59:08 <Taneb> zzo38, why is option called option, rather than, eg., snocA?
17:59:35 <quintopia> couldnt download it by either method
17:59:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Also how do you not have the ram to run a 7-year-old games.
18:00:30 <Phantom_Hoover> ...did computers normally have more ram than that in 2005?
18:00:49 <quintopia> the windows version onlyreqires 512mb
18:00:56 <quintopia> which is all that wasavailable then
18:01:13 <Phantom_Hoover> I see your netbook also has a very unreliable spacebar.
18:01:31 <quintopia> yeah my phonne space bar is teh suck
18:01:51 <quintopia> the keys near itdouble tap or dont tap sometimes too
18:04:32 <zzo38> Taneb: It is called option simply because that is its name in Parsec.
18:17:53 <Phantom_Hoover> http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2012:Giant_sperm_whale
18:18:17 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't care how, I am going to do this. At some point. Maybe.
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18:35:23 <zzo38> Taneb: I could add snocA as another name for the same thing if it is helpful
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18:44:43 <zzo38> OK, I have done that.
18:47:07 <david_werecat> [14:35:18] <zzo38> Taneb: I could add snocA as another name for the same thing if it is helpful
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18:47:11 <david_werecat> [14:41:53] <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, I would find it extremely helpful.
18:47:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Dude the lines are right above, did you have to paste oh all right.
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19:05:47 <zzo38> Taneb: I have added snocA, it is the same as option.
19:12:33 <Taneb> "My god, there are bits in this image! Maybe it's a code?"
19:13:08 <Taneb> As opposed to regular sperm whales?
19:23:23 <quintopia> anyone here have any BTC i can buy?
19:24:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Whilst conducting a financial transaction with a random stranger over IRC is easy.
19:26:39 <Phantom_Hoover> I am genuinely curious whom you would trust to actually pay significant amounts of money.
19:27:27 <fizzie> Bitcoins, I heard they're only used by criminals for illegal things.
19:29:13 <fizzie> Like for buying drugs and I think assassinations?
19:30:11 <fizzie> A pretentious programmer assassin.
19:30:24 <quintopia> who will sell me BTC for an assassin
19:30:45 <quintopia> if the transaction does not go through, i send the assassin after you
19:32:26 <quintopia> i would trust ais to complete the transaction
19:32:46 <quintopia> people who are easily stalked by my assassin
19:33:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, OK I'm going to try a DF worldgen the same as previously except this time I will set the megabeast count to $ridiculous.
19:33:56 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Or perhaps even to BTCridiculous?
19:34:16 <monqy> the most ridiculous
19:38:44 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, see how many cities get covered in ambergris
19:41:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, oh, fun fact: children born to members of hostile civs in your fort have a 50/50 chance of being on your side from some reason.
19:41:33 <Phantom_Hoover> I think this might be exploitable to use elf children as cannon fodder.
19:41:57 <Taneb> "CAPTURE THE PREGNANT FEMALES! HALF OF THERE OFFSPRING SHALL BE /OURS/"
19:42:36 <Phantom_Hoover> I only found this out because I was playing Fortress Defence and some of the added civs breed like crazy.
19:42:39 <Taneb> with meaning agaist here, I presume?
19:43:09 <Taneb> As opposed to alongside
19:43:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Since I used prisoners for target practice they actually did pretty well when given fire support.
19:43:47 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, challenge: make a fortress populated entirely by elves
19:44:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, you can't give them orders or anything and ISTR that they don't play nicely with dorfs.
19:45:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Although hmm, these days non-dorf migrants are possible, since they don't all grow from spores right outside the boundaries of your embark zone,.
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19:56:24 <elliott> 11:02:59: <ais523> if you have a strategy that always wins, that's a nash equilibrium for you, no matter what your opponent is planning, as you can't be any better off than winning
19:56:24 <elliott> 11:03:12: <ais523> and it's a nash equilibrium for them too, as they can't do any better than losing
19:56:24 <elliott> 11:03:20: <ais523> so you have a nash equilibrium altogether
19:56:25 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
19:56:31 <elliott> seems trivial it's not, then
19:57:08 <elliott> 12:03:07: <ssue> I think "aheui" made by puzzlet is my best favourite
19:57:11 <elliott> hehe, isn't that lifthrasiir?
19:59:50 <elliott> 19:23:23: <quintopia> anyone here have any BTC i can buy?
20:02:27 <kmc> "The yesod team is trying to provide a PHP solution for web development, written in haskell."
20:04:18 <Taneb> It could be the Microsoft Windows 8 team, writing in Visual J#
20:12:41 <kmc> processing data without loading it all into memory is still an open, controversial problem in Haskell :/
20:12:44 <kmc> http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/u8fe6/response_to_conduit_bugs/
20:14:10 <elliott> 21:02 <kmc> "The yesod team is trying to provide a PHP solution for web development, written in haskell."
20:14:58 <elliott> he's shitting over that entire thread (ok, the thread is mostly shit to start with) with anti-yesod nonsense to the point that even the writer of the conduit bugs post says he's misinterpreting him
20:15:39 <elliott> I think he might have been the person who made that big stink about Yesod on Hacker News a while ago, too (it annoys me that I know this solely because it got on /r/haskell for some godforsaken reason)
20:17:02 <elliott> 21:12 <kmc> processing data without loading it all into memory is still an open, controversial problem in Haskell :/
20:17:07 <elliott> kmc: this is kind of unfair
20:17:20 <elliott> it's easy to do that, just use regular, strict handle IO, the same as you would in any other language
20:17:38 <elliott> (and anyway when you're dealing with something like a socket "loading it all into memory" isn't an option, because it's streaming, so that's not really the problem being solved)
20:18:07 <kmc> it's kind of unfair but kind of fair too
20:19:51 <kmc> interleaving strict handle IO with your logic is a lot more awkward in Haskell than other languages
20:20:17 <kmc> it pushes your code further from nice idiomatic Haskell
20:21:02 <kmc> so the enumeratoritataritaratee drama is relevant to the high level question of "can you do webdev / whatever nicely in idiomatic Haskell"
20:21:09 <zzo38> :kmc: What do you mean by that, exactly?
20:21:21 <zzo38> What does "interleaving strict handle IO with your logic" mean?
20:22:30 <elliott> kmc: Sure it's awkward, but it's still possible.
20:22:33 <kmc> it means every piece of code is an IO action and is like "do { computeFoo; x <- readMoreShit; computeBar x }"
20:22:42 <elliott> And it's, e.g. less awkward than C because of all the concerns you don't have to worry about.
20:22:46 <elliott> (But more awkward than Python or whatever.)
20:23:05 <kmc> "better than C for webdev"
20:23:09 <kmc> what a high bar you've set elliott
20:23:16 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, what's it like?
20:23:19 <elliott> Anyway, it's not as if processing streaming data is all *that* relevant to web dev.
20:23:23 <elliott> Especially if you don't need file uploads.
20:23:37 <kmc> i'm not trying to be the "Haskell is broken, CHECKMATE ATHEISTS" guy
20:23:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Well the most common cause of death seems to be werebeast.
20:23:42 <elliott> Anyway I don't really think the argument is very relevant, but that's mostly because I have a strong position on it :)
20:23:47 <kmc> but i think this is pretty important
20:23:52 <kmc> what's your strong position
20:23:55 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, sounds like inner-city Glasgow
20:24:13 <kmc> there are a lot of tasks which are much easier in Haskell than other languages
20:24:17 <kmc> but there are also some which are much harder
20:24:30 <Phantom_Hoover> In fact I get the impression that basically everyone's either dead from megabeasts, dead from werebeasts, or a werebeast.
20:24:30 <kmc> i gotta go eat lunch now though
20:24:48 <zzo38> kmc: Why does every piece of code need to be IO action? I find that doesn't need like that at all
20:25:57 <Sgeo> Isn't there some library that's supposed to make Webdev in C++ nice?
20:26:01 <Sgeo> (Or is it C, I forget)
20:26:19 <olsner> Sgeo: PHP is written in C, iirc
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20:26:34 <Sgeo> http://www.webtoolkit.eu/wt
20:26:47 <Taneb> olsner, does that count as making it "nice"?
20:27:08 <zzo38> kmc: What is "interleaving strict handle IO"?
20:28:45 <elliott> 21:23 <kmc> what's your strong position
20:29:30 <elliott> I agree with Tekmo a lot more than Snoyman (although I think both of them approach the argument terribly making it essentially fruitless), but I also don't think Tekmo's solution is all that good :P
20:29:41 <elliott> Disagreeing with everyone is usually the best position.
20:30:02 <ion> I disagree.
20:30:04 <olsner> disagreeing with everyone must mean that you're the only one who's right
20:30:33 <monqy> can i disagree with everyone too
20:32:01 <Taneb> No, that'd be stupid
20:34:01 <olsner> monqy: yes, but unfortunately it seems you have to agree with either me or Taneb about whether or not you can disagree with everyone
20:34:19 <Taneb> olsner, no he doesn't
20:34:26 <Taneb> He could take a third option
20:35:25 <Taneb> "No, but it's not stupid"
20:37:56 <olsner> Breaking news from Sweden: "Boy and grandfather seriously injured"
20:38:43 <olsner> oh well, at least the cannibal drug has disappeared from reporting
20:41:10 <olsner> Taneb: I am glad you agree
20:44:03 <zzo38> I have written the "dvi-processing" package which use IO and non-IO together and it doesn't need every piece of code to be an IO action like your example code above, and I don't think any program needs to be like that
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21:46:21 <Sgeo> Was going to write a quick thing in Racket, but I need formatting directives, and it seems like a bit of a pain
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22:19:03 <HackEgo> Hybris: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
22:20:10 <Hybris> Oh, so that's what this is. Like brainfuck?
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22:41:38 <fizzie> That really should say "dong".
22:42:03 <fizzie> ("Haha, you said 'dong'." Okay, maybe not.)
22:45:07 <Sgeo> I did a bad thing
22:45:29 <Sgeo> I accidentally caused my gf to start focusing more on LSL than on Haskell
22:46:22 <Gregor> @hell elliott I'M GIVING YOU HELL
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22:46:44 <fizzie> Very good. Sadly 91n6 is one typo too many.
22:48:36 <fizzie> @73ll f1zz13 ur s0 1337 h4x0r
22:49:26 <fizzie> Is there an expiration time for messages, incidentally?
23:03:28 <itidus20> Sgeo: via google, is that linden scripting language?
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23:39:39 * Sgeo wonders what Shen is like
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00:19:51 <zzo38> readFile' = readFile >=> liftA2 seq (length :: String -> Int) return; -- It appears to work??
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00:52:34 <BlueProtoman> I'm using C++11 to write a program, and I'm using the new constructor inheritance feature. The base class is Brainfuck, and the derived class is Brainfuck_X1. Problem is, when I call "using Brainfuck::Brainfuck", my compiler gives me the error "Brainfuck::Brainfuck names constructor". Any tips?
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04:40:23 <zzo38> ... GUI: Grab the User In-the-face
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06:20:27 <zzo38> If you can read this, thank your teachers.
06:23:03 <zzo38> If you can read this, you aren't blind.
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06:24:04 <pikhq_> (sore wo yomeba, dare in arigatai ka?)[sore wo yomehà, tàre ni arikàtai ka?] (If you can read this, who should you be thankful towards?)
06:24:10 <zzo38> (Unless you used a braille terminal or computer speech or whatever)
06:36:47 <Taneb> What do you call functions that take 2 inputs?
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06:44:18 <Taneb> zzo38, I can't find an example of reSigned differing from transInt
06:47:16 <shachaf> zzo38: Should I resent my teachers if I can't read that?
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07:06:44 <lambdabot> quintopia: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
07:06:48 <zzo38> Taneb: Sorry I may have made a mistake; I put it there for the different ways range errors would happen but I don't know if they would cause the same range error?
07:07:14 <zzo38> shachaf: That is your choice.
07:08:49 <Taneb> transInt (255 :: Word8) :: Int8 == reSigned (255 :: Word8) :: Int8
07:09:20 <zzo38> Taneb: O, so that works. Then there is no reason for both; I may remove reSigned
07:09:23 <Taneb> transInt (-128 :: Int8) :: Word8 == reSigned (-128 :: Int8) :: Word8 == 128
07:10:25 <zzo38> quintopia: I sometimes get money from government and sometimes I do individual job for someone to earn money or barter
07:11:03 <zzo38> What does BTC mean?
07:11:20 <zzo38> Taneb: Don't bother reSigned; just use transInt and I will remove reSigned in the next version
07:11:43 <Taneb> At some point I need to move all my documentation to the newest version, I'm writing it in 2.0
07:12:05 <zzo38> quintopia: No, I don't use that.
07:12:27 <zzo38> Taneb: I will just merge it with whatever changes I make and release that
07:12:48 <Taneb> I'll move it to 3.1 first
07:12:58 <Taneb> Can you explain what getBits does to me?
07:13:14 <Taneb> Or rather, can you explain, to me, what getBits does?
07:17:36 <zzo38> Taneb: Receive the range of bits by high and low specification.
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07:21:14 <zzo38> getBits 3 4 to retrieve low 4 bits, getBits 7 4 to retrieve the next 4 bits after lowest one, etc.
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07:37:32 <zzo38> I will sleep now. Continue to write your question/comment I will review the logs tomorrow.
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07:49:39 <quintopia> @tell ais523 skyscraper sits there with the enemy doing a fake triplock for hundreds of cycles. sure that is ample opportunity to guess polarity and put the last decoys in the direction that costs them the most time?
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10:12:14 <fizzie> Dwarves say "Lali-ho!".
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10:17:01 <itidus20> trust someone with a final fantasy id to understand a final fantasy reference!
10:18:03 <nortti> who has a final fantasy if?
10:18:07 <itidus20> the game of chat trivia isn't as fun when nearly all facts can be obtained from google
10:18:29 <lambdabot> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tidus
10:18:29 <lambdabot> Title: Tidus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
10:19:56 <itidus20> the words final fantasy appears four times in the first paragrah on that page!
10:30:07 <fizzie> FF4 is what I was thinking of, yes, though I am under the impression it's been at least in one of the earlier games, at least in the Japanese text. And in FF9 they say "Rally-Ho".
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10:33:58 <itidus20> In reality I'm not very clued in about final fantasy games.
10:34:24 <itidus20> If 100 is the maximum one can know about final fantasy games, I suppose I'm a 3.
10:35:26 <fizzie> You can measure that by taking the Official Final Fantasy Examination. (Okay, not really.)
10:36:02 <itidus20> it depends how accurate my statement is
10:36:31 <itidus20> unfortunately from a certain point of view a human can only have an infinitessimally small knowledge of final fantasy
10:36:43 <itidus20> just like one cannot know everything about chess
10:36:43 <fizzie> Square-Enix should arrange some sort of a thing where you go to a room in their offices and take a monitored multiple-choice test.
10:37:46 <itidus20> for example, part of the knowledge would be the ability to sit in a room with no information other than whats in your head, and write a complete source code to every final fantasy game ever made
10:38:05 <itidus20> including all graphics and sounds
10:39:20 <fizzie> There's an officially licensed energy drink called "Final Fantasy Potion" that was released as part of the marketing of FFXII.
10:39:44 <fizzie> It's "an herb-drink containing such ingredients as royal jelly, propolis extract, elderberry, chamomile, sage, thyme, hyssop, fennel, marjoram, rosemary, basil, Melissa, carbonated water, caffeine, and artificial coloring. The drink had a unique taste; it was very sweet, but at the same time possessed a bitter herbal aftertaste."
10:41:15 <itidus20> i know the same is true of every game though (as what I just said)
10:41:27 <fizzie> I see they've also made a FFVII themed version of Potion for that game's 10-year anniversary.
10:41:54 <itidus20> but like, a game such as Super Mario Bros.. it would actually be concievable that someone could memorize how to code a replica of that game with complete graphics
10:42:20 <itidus20> not completely perfectly though
10:42:39 <nortti> yeah. all the bugs wouldn't be there
10:42:41 <itidus20> unless it was a savant... then god only knows what is possible
10:43:47 <itidus20> (begins wandering off the topic path...)
10:44:44 <itidus20> well having said that I understand that with project MKULTRA they studied whether they could hypnotize people into memorizing documents after briefly viewing them, and recalling the contents
10:51:48 <fizzie> SMB1 rom is I think 256kbit, so about 79000 decimal digits when represented in that base; digits of pi have been memorized approximately that far. (Guinness record 67890 digits, some reports for 100000, and one guy claims 30 million digits, but obviously didn't list them all; they just asked for random sequences, so it might be a bit dubious.)
10:53:18 <fizzie> (Anyway, there might be large amounts of easier-to-remember material in there.)
10:54:19 <fizzie> Long time to type it all down, though.
10:55:15 <fizzie> It apparently took the Guinness record holder a bit over 24 hours to recite the 67890 digits.
10:57:25 <itidus20> this version of smb1 is 40,976 bytes
10:57:57 <itidus20> i don't know how they figure that :P
10:58:24 <fizzie> Well, that's a bit more than 256kbit, but maybe it's just the format. Anyway, same ballpark.
10:58:47 <itidus20> yeah.. i should look up a more authoritative source
11:01:45 <itidus20> ahh.. this website says it's a 320-kilobit cartridge
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11:02:26 <itidus20> "the game of chat trivia isn't as fun when nearly all facts can be obtained from google"
11:03:10 <fizzie> Hokay. Well, then. At least it's not orders of magnitude more. (I couldn't find the size very fast, so gave up.)
11:04:59 <itidus20> how does one go about calculating the number of decimal digits based on the number of kilobits?
11:05:16 <itidus20> maybe i should solve this myself
11:05:55 <fizzie> Divide the bits by log_2(10).
11:06:09 <itidus20> oh. yeah i was about to say that..
11:09:19 <fizzie> 2^n = 2^(log_2(10)*n/log_2(10)) = (2^log_2(10))^(n/log_2(10)) = 10^(n/log_2(10)) to be explicit about it.
11:12:02 <itidus20> so math is useful for something other than torturing children after all
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11:13:00 <fizzie> The Gameboy Super Mario Land is apparently a 512-kilobit thing, that's kinda funny. It's got less levels and colors and all that.
11:13:29 <itidus20> i guess that's the tidus-fizzie number.. the number of decimal digits required to memorize a complete nintendo game
11:14:16 <itidus20> i suppose, that, it's probably been independantly discovered somewhere out there
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11:17:09 <fizzie> Bah, that Mario wiki doesn't list cartridge size for the non-Super Mario Bros game, or the NES Donkey Kong port. But I wouldn't be surprised if they were smaller.
11:17:14 <itidus20> the rom file seems to contain 327,808 bits
11:17:54 <itidus20> however that is the EU version
11:19:58 <fizzie> 327680 is what 320 kibibits is, the leftover 16 bytes coud be just headers.
11:22:39 <fizzie> According to IGN's list, Duck Hunt came on a 192 kilobit cartridge. That's less than 60k decimal digits, even the lame Guinness pi guy could do that.
11:23:08 <itidus20> so donkey kong and duckhunt same
11:24:03 <itidus20> (24,592kb * 8) / 1024 = 192.125 kilobit cart
11:24:56 <fizzie> 24592kb? That's quite a lot.
11:25:46 <itidus20> phew.. ((24592 * 8)-128) / 1024 = 192
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11:26:50 <Taneb> This is what happens when you try a new client without closing your old one
11:27:02 <fizzie> That was a confusing join sequence.
11:27:15 <fizzie> Now your NAME is KNOWN.
11:27:43 <fizzie> Or at least someone's name.
11:27:45 <ion> YOUR COMPUTER IS BROADCASTING A NAME
11:27:51 <Taneb> My name... was already known by most of the channel?
11:28:04 <ion> taneb: Also, anyone who runs /whois. :-)
11:28:07 <Taneb> So is elliott's, for that matter
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11:28:17 <ion> Yes. elliott’s real name is Eliot.
11:28:47 <itidus20> ok my name is Scott .. now that it is read it cannot be unread
11:29:51 <itidus20> fizzie, the biggest nes rom putting aside action52 turns out to be a game i have never heard of name Metal Slader Glory
11:30:27 <itidus20> well when i say biggest that is in terms of compressed
11:30:42 <fizzie> I read that as "Metal Slander Glory", that sounded even more exciting.
11:31:02 <fizzie> Metal Libel and Slander Glory.
11:32:25 <itidus20> god... what could it be.. how could it go under the radar
11:33:21 <olsner> looks like it has a lot of pictures
11:33:37 <olsner> some kind of slideshow game
11:34:16 <Taneb> Apparently it took so long to develope...
11:34:25 <Taneb> That when it was released, the SNES was out
11:35:27 <Taneb> Can anyone tell me if it is possible to run more than one application from a single terminal at once, and tab between them or something?
11:36:58 <fizzie> "Maximum manufactured ROM Size
11:36:58 <fizzie> The largest single NES game that I know of is Dragonquest 4 / Dragon Warrior 4. It has 1 megabyte of program ROM. Also, the Japanese game Metal Slader Glory has 512K of PRG and 512K of CHR ROM, making it also a full megabyte. Several pirate/unlicenced Famicom games are also pretty large.
11:37:04 <fizzie> Minimum manufactured ROM Size
11:37:06 <fizzie> Although the .NES fileformat deems 16K PRG ROM games as the minimum, there have been some 8K games manufactured, such as Galaxian. Later on, skilled programmers have learned to squeeze better code into even less memory, but nowadays most are probably dead.
11:37:12 <fizzie> From http://nocash.emubase.de/everynes.htm#cartridgeinfo
11:38:15 <fizzie> Taneb: Why not just run screen/some screen-alike?
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11:40:41 <Taneb> I'm seeing if I can survive without a GUI
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11:49:58 <elliott> Someone remind me how MOOs do pronouns. (That is, the specific list of words they decompose a pronoun set into.)
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11:50:31 <elliott> fizzie: Here, I nominate you.
11:50:52 <elliott> 11:28:47: <itidus20> ok my name is Scott .. now that it is read it cannot be unread
11:50:56 <elliott> itidus20: Nnnno. It's itidus.
11:58:48 <fizzie> I don't know about cow pronouns.
12:00:10 <ion> I love the mutated cow special encounter in Fallout.
12:03:26 <elliott> fizzie: Hey, what would you call the abstraction of hit points to things other than hits? "Points" is too vague.
12:03:45 <elliott> (That is, (m,n) where m <= n, m being current ?P and n being maximum ?P.)
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12:06:29 <fizzie> Uh. I don't know. Something about a bound, maybe, since that's what it has, but I don't know. GP for Generic Points. (Not really.)
12:07:16 <elliott> data MonsterStats = MonsterStats
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12:17:07 <HackEgo> Alheris: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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12:51:44 <itidus20> data MonsterStats = MonsterStats{ monHP :: !P, monMP :: !P }
12:55:54 <itidus20> lol "In games, score refers to an abstract quantity associated with a player or team. Score is usually measured in the abstract unit of points, and events in the game can raise or lower the score of different parties."
12:57:18 <itidus20> (gaming) A unit of scoring in a game or competition. [from 18th c.]
13:02:05 <itidus20> Meaning "a unit of score in a game" is first recorded 1746.
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13:07:46 <itidus20> the exact quote appears to be:
13:07:46 <itidus20> 1746 Hoyle Whist (ed. 6) 69 Points. Ten of them make a Game.
13:09:09 <itidus20> bah .. this fool didn't do his research very well
13:10:27 <itidus20> well maybe the research is ok.. however..
13:10:36 <itidus20> 1719 R. Seymour Court Gamester 75 He who reckons most in this Manner [either by greater number of cards, or, in case of equality, of Pips, Ace = 11, Court cards 10 each] is said to win the Point.
13:14:04 <itidus20> "The salient feature of a story, discourse, epigram, joke, etc.; that which gives it application; effective or telling part." ok, just get to the point
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13:56:23 <elliott> "A pecularity of the inPulse watch is that it has one button. Fortunately, roguelikes are turn-based, so by entering commands in morse code one can gain the advantage of the whole keyboard."
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14:04:42 <elliott> Taneb: if you want to do without a gui, then just use the console instead of X :
14:04:46 <elliott> (but I don't recommend it)
14:05:04 <Taneb> This is more of a "see if I can" experience
14:05:31 <Taneb> Just in case I'm sent back to the 70s and don't want to /completely/ terrify them
14:05:45 <elliott> you're taneb you will terrify them regardless
14:06:22 <nortti> elliott: it works actually pretty well
14:06:56 <nortti> Taneb: (spoilers: you can. I have been doing it for some 2 weeks for now)
14:07:09 <Taneb> I'm doing it AS WE SPEAK
14:07:26 <Taneb> I'm running the terminal thing that comes with Ubuntu full screen
14:07:32 <Taneb> I've got the GUI behind it
14:07:41 <nortti> Taneb: I am not running X at all
14:07:55 <nortti> actually I unistalled Xorg
14:08:12 <nortti> when I need X (qemu, hv3) I use xfbdev
14:09:03 <fizzie> I did mostly-no-X for some amount of years, some amount of years back.
14:09:36 <Taneb> I've got byobu going, with irssi, Dwarf Fortress, and links2 open
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14:09:55 <nortti> fizzie: what webbrowser did you run in console? I use link2 -g and I am trying to get netsurf running
14:10:13 <nortti> Taneb: do you use links2 with or without graphics?
14:11:06 <nortti> Taneb: do you have framebuffer working in tty*? do you have gpm?
14:11:29 <Taneb> Seeing as I don't know what either are
14:11:31 <nortti> what is output when you type links -driver ?
14:12:07 <Taneb> links is not installed
14:12:26 <Taneb> links2 -driver wants a parameter
14:12:46 <nortti> Taneb: how do you run link2? on all systems I have used links2 is started with command links
14:12:58 <Taneb> "links2 google.com"?
14:13:33 <nortti> Taneb: ? is part of that command
14:13:34 <fizzie> nortti: I don't remember. It was around the year 2000. I don't think links2 was around, or if it was, not very far.
14:13:44 <Taneb> No quotes or question mark, nortti
14:14:14 <nortti> Taneb: I meant my command
14:14:37 <fizzie> Matrox cards had a very spiffy framebuffer driver.
14:14:49 <Taneb> Unknown graphics driver p
14:15:00 <Taneb> x, fb, directfb and svgalib are supported
14:15:24 <fizzie> Taneb: Do you have a file called "p" there?
14:15:50 <fizzie> Yes. I mean, it sounds like the ? expanded.
14:16:16 <nortti> Taneb: good. your links2 has been compiled with framebuffer support. do you have /dev/fb* and chmod them 666 if you do
14:16:26 <elliott> Taneb: this is pointless since you are not using the console
14:17:31 <Taneb> If someone tells me how to use the console, I'll switch.
14:18:06 <nortti> Taneb: how many lines do you have per screen in console?
14:20:43 <nortti> Taneb: also can you see picture if you try mplayer -vo fbdev moviefile
14:21:04 <fizzie> Oh, fbdev mode-setting was such a mess back then. 'fbset' was very kludgy.
14:21:28 <fizzie> Anyway, mplayer -vo mga was the snazziest thing.
14:21:47 <fizzie> I don't seem to even have fbset installed.
14:22:30 <nortti> I just use vga=794 as kernel boot argument
14:23:30 <fizzie> fbset let you mess around with timings and so on.
14:23:47 <fizzie> I think I had a novelty 666x666 graphics mode in there.
14:24:01 <fizzie> Rather non-square pixels though.
14:30:00 <fizzie> vesafb tended to be real slow when e.g. scrolling, too. I wonder if that's any better nowadays.
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14:33:09 <nortti> fizzie: what distro are you using?
14:35:44 <fizzie> Debian and Ubuntu, nowadays. Either Slackware or Debian in the no-X days, can't recall which one.
14:38:09 <fizzie> Taneb: Was it an adventure?
14:38:44 <Taneb> nortti: no idea on the lines
14:39:27 <fizzie> The 'resize' command will often tell you that.
14:39:59 <Taneb> 26 lines in one of the quadrants
14:40:15 <Taneb> Dunno for the whole thing
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14:41:43 <nortti> Taneb: if it is over 25 it is pretty safe to assume you have working framebuffer of some sort
14:43:33 <fizzie> Or just cat /proc/fb? (Or whatever it was called.)
14:44:13 <fizzie> Okay, technically that just tells if there is a framebuffer device, not whether the console is bound to it.
14:44:13 <nortti> it was /proc/fb (mine shows 0 VESA VGA)
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14:54:07 <fizzie> But is this in X-land, or the console?
14:54:20 <fizzie> 47 is a pretty weird number for an actual console.
14:54:45 <fizzie> Given reasonable video modes and font heights.
14:55:16 <Taneb> Actual console, I think
14:55:16 <nortti> Taneb: I need dimensions of you text console you can access with C-A-F1
14:57:05 <fizzie> Then you can use a MOUSE! Isn't that so 2000s?
14:57:32 <nortti> now try links2 -g -driver fb
14:57:33 <fizzie> Assuming things work out, that is.
15:01:18 <Sgeo> http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/06/02/in-light-of-recent-episodes-cdc-makes-statement-that-zombies-dont-actually-exist/
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15:01:48 <Sgeo> 'I feel like the CDC, they know something is going on, one woman who disagrees with Kendrick said. Theyre trying to cover it up so nobody will panic.
15:01:48 <Sgeo> She also believes in vampires, and that this is all one big conspiracy.'
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15:08:43 <itidus20> Sgeo: well, something to consider is the false sense of authority one might get from reading "the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention a federal agency "
15:09:18 <itidus20> i mean, can federal agencies really be trusted?
15:14:01 <nortti> `run echo 'warning: "hi" is frequently misinterpreted as a threat' > wisdom/hi
15:14:09 <HackEgo> warning: "hi" is frequently misinterpreted as a threat
15:15:06 -!- elliott has set topic: waning | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
15:15:43 <elliott> someone name my simultaneous-turn roguelike
15:15:52 <itidus20> in a front-page article, claiming that the CIA had assassinated foreign leaders, and had illegally conducted surveillance on some 7,000 US citizens involved in the antiwar movement (Operation CHAOS). The CIA had also experimented on people, who unknowingly took LSD (among other things).
15:16:41 <itidus20> Nixon and Haldemann ensured that the CIA's #1 and #2 ranking officials, Richard Helms and Vernon Walters, communicated to FBI Director L. Patrick Gray that the FBI should not follow the money trail from the burglars to the Committee to Re-elect the President, as it would uncover CIA informants in Mexico.
15:17:06 <olsner> itidus20: the CIA also condones making love to goats
15:17:54 <elliott> downside: quokka is hard to type
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15:18:49 <itidus20> The journal Nature reported in 2005 that 70% of FDA panels writing clinical guidelines on prescription drug usage contained at least one member with financial links to drug companies whose products were covered by those guidelines.
15:19:02 <elliott> oh my god are you going on about patents again
15:19:47 <itidus20> CIA, FBI, FDA.. i am not sure who else there is to dig up wikipedia dirt on
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15:42:55 <HackEgo> WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/WiKi/mAiN_PaGe. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On iRc.dAl.nEt.)
15:52:12 <HackEgo> WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/WiKi/mAiN_PaGe. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On iRc.dAl.nEt.)
15:52:18 <HackEgo> WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/WiKi/mAiN_PaGe. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On iRc.dAl.nEt.)
15:54:04 <HackEgo> NoRtTi: WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/WiKi/mAiN_PaGe. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On iRc.dAl.nEt.)
15:54:30 <HackEgo> NORTTI: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.)
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16:14:16 <nortti> @ask Taneb did links2 work in framebuffer?
16:16:30 <lambdabot> echo; msg:IrcMessage {msgServer = "freenode", msgLBName = "lambdabot", msgPrefix = "nortti!~juhani@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi", msgCommand = "PRIVMSG", msgParams = ["#esoteric",":@echo foo"]
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16:17:34 <lambdabot> echo <msg>. echo irc protocol string
16:19:39 <fizzie> It's the only one that actually has an echo.
16:20:14 <fizzie> No, that just prints the argument.
16:20:25 <fizzie> ^echo Does it echo in here?
16:20:26 <fungot> Does it echo in here? Does it echo in here?
16:22:00 -!- PatashuXantheres has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
16:22:11 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `;' \ bash: -c: line 0: `:(){ :|:&; }; :'
16:22:30 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
16:23:43 <nortti> hmm. HackEgo either solves the halting problem, has detection for fokbombs or just stops commands after some time
16:26:00 <fizzie> Everything has a timeout, though that might get stopped earlier due to other limits for all I know.
16:26:13 <fizzie> `run while true; do true; done
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16:26:41 <fizzie> I'm not sure if it says anything when it gets bored.
16:27:42 <nortti> well. I'll just have to find code that solves the halting program somewhere else
16:28:49 <elliott> hmm, to reinvent the wheel or not to reinvent the wheel
16:30:59 <elliott> that want to display on terminals
16:33:01 <nortti> reinvent if you can do better that existing implementations, otherwise don't
16:34:51 <elliott> the question is whether I can be bothered
16:47:49 <nortti> "That is a photo of squids off the coast of Japan using their own water farts to leap right out of the water and into open air."
17:47:59 -!- Taneb has joined.
17:48:25 <lambdabot> Taneb: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
17:48:58 <Taneb> Now I know I can survive in a texty mode like that, I will never use it again
17:51:07 <fizzie> Went to check my tty1, just for funtimes. Didn't know there's a "FATAL: Error inserting vesafb (/lib/modules/.../vesafb.ko): No such device" in there, that's funny.
18:03:20 <Taneb> FUTURE ZZO38: what does loeb do? I can't get it to do anything...
18:05:32 <Taneb> It's not exported, though?
18:06:54 <elliott> Taneb: http://blog.sigfpe.com/2006/11/from-l-theorem-to-spreadsheet.html
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18:13:10 <Taneb> I thought it was going to be about L-systems.
18:14:14 <Taneb> I'm not sure if I understand it, though
18:22:14 <elliott> Taneb: See also http://blog.sigfpe.com/2006/12/tying-knots-generically.html
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18:38:11 <Taneb> Well, I still don't really know what loeb does, but I know that's my own fault, not the fault of loeb
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18:46:30 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
18:46:35 <lambdabot> quintopia said 10h 56m 55s ago: skyscraper sits there with the enemy doing a fake triplock for hundreds of cycles. sure that is ample opportunity to guess polarity and put the last decoys in the
18:46:35 <lambdabot> direction that costs them the most time?
18:47:18 <ais523> quintopia: I don't get it, that's how skyscraper works at the moment
18:52:53 <zzo38> Taneb: I took it from some description somewhere; it can be used for spreadsheet evaluation
18:53:01 <Taneb> Yeah, elliott linked it
18:55:19 <zzo38> Also change the order of exports if you prefer a different order
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19:03:10 <Taneb> At the moment, I'm just playing with the Curry-Howard correspondance
19:03:17 <Taneb> I can't think what Negation is like
19:04:09 <zzo38> Not could be considered (x -> Zero) if Zero is uninhabited type
19:04:11 <elliott> where Void is the type with no values
19:05:13 <ais523> /* Load the data for one screen. Return its data index, in such a way that Splint can see that it's fully defined (data indexes themselves often
19:05:14 <ais523> aren't, so the return value is a more specific type than s->index). *mutters something about Curry/Howard* */
19:05:32 <zzo38> It also works if Zero actually represents the number zero, () represents one, -> for exponent, (,) for multiplication, Either for addition, then zero to the power of zero makes one and zero to the power of anything other than zero makes zero
19:06:00 <zzo38> ais523: In what program is that?
19:06:20 <ais523> zzo38: a platformer engine I'm writing
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19:06:40 <ais523> I'm trying to use Splint to prove there are no memory allocation errors in it; sadly, Splint is too buggy to make a good theorem prover
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19:33:50 <quintopia> ais523: yeah i just realized that it is what it was doing. i was confused because it was failing to do it in some places where it could have, but i realize now that is just a weakness with the polarity detection, not the strategy
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19:36:30 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/TSOU
19:36:40 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 0.0
19:37:19 <Taneb> Maybe failure to read properly?
19:37:51 <quintopia> yeah i dunno. it shouldnt be much longer than the one that was already in there
19:38:19 <Taneb> Like, maybe EgoBot had an internet blip
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19:39:45 <quintopia> i bet it has to do with the massive failure my terminal had when i was pasting it in
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19:43:07 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/hCEj
19:43:10 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 0.0
19:43:34 <ais523> unmatched paren, or something?
19:44:04 <quintopia> how do i locate the character egojsout says it's at
19:45:18 <quintopia> what text editor happily says "oh here's the context around character 36866!
19:46:38 <quintopia> ais523: do you have a copy of the old version?
19:47:23 <quintopia> i think it'll be easier to make the changes again than track down the missing character
19:47:23 <ais523> quintopia: and I use Emacs, C-u 36866 C-f
19:48:09 <ais523> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot.hg/index.cgi/raw-file/93dc3dc7dad9/quintopia_space_elevator.bfjoust
19:48:14 <ais523> no need for a pastebin ;)
19:48:26 <ais523> (EgoBot has past versions online too)
19:48:51 <ais523> ah, OK, let me see if that's the one I have locally
19:49:00 <zzo38> Sorry my computer was off
19:49:27 <ais523> http://sprunge.us/idYC
19:55:29 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/hgZU
19:55:32 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 44.7
19:56:03 <quintopia> a lot of other things i want to change, but its good to see that
20:01:19 <nortti> Taneb: "surviving" in a linux text mode is not hard at all. tell me when you haven't started X for 5 days
20:02:50 <nortti> it isn't that hard really. biggest change would be using links2 as your main web browser (that or compiling netsurf with it's dependecy hell)
20:03:04 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
20:03:18 <Taneb> For me, the biggest challenge would be figuring out how to use emacs/vi/nano/whatever
20:04:11 <nortti> if you can't figure out nano you don't deserve to say you can survive in textmode
20:05:02 <Taneb> It's surprisingly easy
20:05:25 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:05:46 <nortti> it is as easy as using notepad but remeber to use nano -w (or whatever disables word wrap)
20:06:36 <nortti> but for future terminal use at least learn basics of vi, emacs or ed
20:07:13 <fizzie> WebKitDFB or Dillo on GTK on DirectFB. Though I guess that doesn't really count as "text mode" any more.
20:07:46 <fizzie> I'm a bit dubious on how well the banking websites would work on links2 or elinks or w3m or whatever.
20:07:56 <nortti> well directfb means you cannot use other terminals when that program is running
20:08:22 <fizzie> It'd be just for special occasions.
20:09:08 <nortti> fizzie: also netsurf has better rendering than dillo if I remember correctly. and website rendering in links2 is not really that bad
20:09:56 <nortti> it is just a hell to get to build even under X and buiding for framebuffer is even harder
20:12:07 <ais523> <nortti> if you can't figure out nano you don't deserve to say you can survive in textmode <-- nano is unfit for heavy editing, it doesn't obviously do automatic indentation
20:12:18 <ais523> not even just "copy the indentation of the previous line" like gedit
20:13:13 <nortti> ais523: I know. I should have said "if you can't *even* figure out nano you don't deserve to say you can survive in textmode"
20:13:16 <zzo38> When on Linux computer I use vi
20:13:49 <nortti> I never use nano myself. I use either ed or sometimes vi
20:15:57 <nortti> but if I would be forced to choose between emacs and nano I would choose nano
20:29:43 <Taneb> I think I have just figured out what callCC is on about
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20:30:00 <Taneb> It uses what its output is going to be used for to find its output
20:38:31 <elliott> Taneb: you should read my explanation!
20:38:59 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9050725/call-cc-implementation or just read http://blog.sigfpe.com/2008/12/mother-of-all-monads.html
20:40:20 <nortti> elliott: I reimplemented `WeLcOmE and properly this time
20:40:53 <nortti> `cat /hackev/bin/WeLcOmE
20:40:56 <HackEgo> cat: /hackev/bin/WeLcOmE: No such file or directory
20:41:04 <nortti> `cat /hackenv/bin/WeLcOmE
20:41:07 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ welcome $@ | python -c "print (lambda s: ''.join([ (s[i].upper() if i%2==0 else s[i].lower()) for i in range(len(s)) ]))(raw_input())"
20:41:39 <ion> `ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ foo
20:41:41 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ: not found
20:42:06 <elliott> Man, I can't believe I wrote all that spiel on continuations.
20:42:51 <ion> `run printf "#!/bin/sh\nWELCOME | perl -CS -Mutf8 -pwe 'y/!-~/！-～/; y/ / /'\n" >/hackenv/bin/ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ; chmod 755 /hackenv/bin/ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ
20:42:58 <nortti> ion: what did you try to execute? I only see blocks
20:43:04 <ion> `cat /hackenv/bin/ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ
20:43:07 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ WELCOME | perl -CS -Mutf8 -pwe 'y/!-~/！-～/; y/ / /'
20:43:16 <ion> `WELCOME foo
20:43:20 <HackEgo> FOO: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.)
20:43:20 <HackEgo> WhAt?: wElCoMe tO ThE InTeRnAtIoNaL HuB FoR EsOtErIc pRoGrAmMiNg lAnGuAgE DeSiGn aNd dEpLoYmEnT! fOr mOrE InFoRmAtIoN, cHeCk oUt oUr wIkI: hTtP://EsOlAnGs.oRg/wIkI/MaIn_pAgE. (FoR ThE OtHeR KiNd oF EsOtErIcA, tRy #EsOtErIc oN IrC.DaL.NeT.)
20:43:24 <ion> `ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ foo
20:43:27 <HackEgo> ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ ＴＯ ＴＨＥ ＩＮＴＥＲＮＡＴＩＯＮＡＬ ＨＵＢ ＦＯＲ ＥＳＯＴＥＲＩＣ ＰＲＯＧＲＡＭＭＩＮＧ ＬＡＮＧＵＡＧＥ ＤＥＳＩＧＮ ＡＮＤ ＤＥＰＬＯＹＭＥＮＴ！ ＦＯＲ ＭＯＲＥ ＩＮＦＯＲＭＡＴＩＯＮ， ＣＨＥＣＫ ＯＵＴ ＯＵＲ ＷＩＫＩ： ＨＴＴＰ：／／ＥＳＯＬＡＮＧＳ．ＯＲＧ／ＷＩＫ
20:44:07 <ais523> the last letter is shaved off
20:44:15 <ais523> what about just removing all the spaces? I can hardly see them anyway
20:45:09 <fizzie> Man, that Python WeLcOmE is so overcomplicated.
20:45:11 <fizzie> `run welcome foo | python -c "print ''.join(c.upper() if i%2==0 else c.lower() for i, c in enumerate(raw_input()))"
20:45:15 <HackEgo> FoO: wElCoMe tO ThE InTeRnAtIoNaL HuB FoR EsOtErIc pRoGrAmMiNg lAnGuAgE DeSiGn aNd dEpLoYmEnT! fOr mOrE InFoRmAtIoN, cHeCk oUt oUr wIkI: hTtP://EsOlAnGs.oRg/wIkI/MaIn_pAgE. (FoR ThE OtHeR KiNd oF EsOtErIcA, tRy #EsOtErIc oN IrC.DaL.NeT.)
20:45:17 <ais523> nortti: the I of "wiki"
20:45:27 <elliott> It's also wrong, since it alternates on non-alphabetical characters.
20:45:39 <elliott> ion: That omits the "foo: ".
20:45:46 <ion> elliott: Oh, good point.
20:45:54 <ion> `run printf "#!/bin/sh\nWELCOME \"$@\" | perl -CS -Mutf8 -pwe 'y/!-~/！-～/; y/ / /'\n" >/hackenv/bin/ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ; chmod 755 /hackenv/bin/ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ
20:46:12 <HackEgo> ： ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ ＴＯ ＴＨＥ ＩＮＴＥＲＮＡＴＩＯＮＡＬ ＨＵＢ ＦＯＲ ＥＳＯＴＥＲＩＣ ＰＲＯＧＲＡＭＭＩＮＧ ＬＡＮＧＵＡＧＥ ＤＥＳＩＧＮ ＡＮＤ ＤＥＰＬＯＹＭＥＮＴ！ ＦＯＲ ＭＯＲＥ ＩＮＦＯＲＭＡＴＩＯＮ， ＣＨＥＣＫ ＯＵＴ ＯＵＲ ＷＩＫＩ： ＨＴＴＰ：／／ＥＳＯＬＡＮＧＳ．ＯＲＧ／Ｗ
20:46:19 <shachaf> wE得るCOMEE得る得るiOTTA得ぬDiO得ぬ！
20:46:28 <ion> `run printf "#!/bin/sh\nWELCOME \"\$@\" | perl -CS -Mutf8 -pwe 'y/!-~/！-～/; y/ / /'\n" >/hackenv/bin/ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ; chmod 755 /hackenv/bin/ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ
20:46:41 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:46:45 <ion> `ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ foo
20:46:49 <HackEgo> ＦＯＯ： ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ ＴＯ ＴＨＥ ＩＮＴＥＲＮＡＴＩＯＮＡＬ ＨＵＢ ＦＯＲ ＥＳＯＴＥＲＩＣ ＰＲＯＧＲＡＭＭＩＮＧ ＬＡＮＧＵＡＧＥ ＤＥＳＩＧＮ ＡＮＤ ＤＥＰＬＯＹＭＥＮＴ！ ＦＯＲ ＭＯＲＥ ＩＮＦＯＲＭＡＴＩＯＮ， ＣＨＥＣＫ ＯＵＴ ＯＵＲ ＷＩＫＩ： ＨＴＴＰ：／／ＥＳＯＬＡＮＧＳ．ＯＲ
20:48:39 <ion> nortti: http://i.imgur.com/NMQKb.png
20:49:58 <fizzie> Check out our wiki, ESOLANGS.OR.DIE.
21:04:02 <Taneb> Also, callCC is pretty confusing... but useful?
21:05:02 <quintopia> !bfjoust zoom (>)*9(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6])*4(>[>(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6])*17])*17
21:05:05 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_zoom: 20.7
21:07:43 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, you're the expert on brainfuck variants
21:07:47 <Taneb> Is there one with callCC?
21:08:40 <Phantom_Hoover> I doubt it, seeing as Brainfuck doesn't have local variables.
21:09:04 <Taneb> Well, I'm gonna go now, I've got an early morning to wake up to
21:09:07 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:14:11 <quintopia> !bfjoust zoom (>)*9(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6])*20])*4(>[>(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6])*17])*17
21:14:14 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_zoom: 25.7
21:16:27 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele [---]
21:16:29 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 14.3
21:16:37 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele [+++]
21:16:40 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 14.3
21:16:53 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele [--->+++<]
21:16:56 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 13.2
21:17:02 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele [--->+<]
21:17:06 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 13.3
21:17:25 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele >(+)*100<[---]
21:17:27 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 12.6
21:17:37 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_spin: 0.0
21:17:45 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele >(+)*10<[---]
21:17:48 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 11.8
21:17:51 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele >(+)*10<[---]
21:17:54 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 11.8
21:17:55 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele >(+)*255<[---]
21:17:58 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 13.9
21:18:27 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (>(+)*255)*5(<)*5[---]
21:18:29 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 6.5
21:22:49 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele [->+<]
21:22:52 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 12.9
21:23:07 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele [->+>+<<]
21:23:10 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 11.6
21:23:26 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 15.9
21:23:45 <nortti> that one is trying to commit suicide >.<
21:25:33 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_spin: 1.6
21:25:48 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_spin: 13.0
21:26:05 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_spin: 8.3
21:26:33 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_shudder: 17.7
21:27:26 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_null: 9.2
21:28:26 <nortti> how does that one win?
21:28:55 <nortti> also how do you repeat piece of code -1 times?
21:29:59 <oerjan> that's by tradition equivalent to the maximum, i think
21:30:25 <david_werecat> Well I know that null at least wins agains quintopia_zoom by having it run off the tape...
21:30:26 <oerjan> (the tradition _may_ have started out as a bug :P)
21:31:21 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (->+<)*-1
21:31:24 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 13.0
21:31:29 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (-)*-1
21:31:32 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 16.8
21:31:38 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (+)*-1
21:31:43 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 16.8
21:31:56 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (+>[-])*-1
21:31:59 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 12.2
21:32:04 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (+>[-]<)*-1
21:32:06 <oerjan> !bfjoust tykje (++)*-1
21:32:07 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 15.1
21:32:10 <EgoBot> Score for oerjan_tykje: 16.8
21:32:14 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (+++)*-1
21:32:18 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 16.8
21:32:46 <quintopia> !bfjoust zoom (>)*9(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6])*20])*4(>[>(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6])*17])*5(>[>(>[>(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6])*12])*12])*12
21:32:49 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_zoom: 14.4
21:32:52 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (-+)*-1
21:32:56 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 11.6
21:33:04 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (.+)*-1
21:33:08 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 18.4
21:33:12 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (.++)*-1
21:33:15 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 13.4
21:33:23 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (.+++)*-1
21:33:26 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 13.1
21:33:31 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (.++++)*-1
21:33:34 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 11.2
21:33:38 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (.)*-1
21:33:41 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 8.2
21:33:43 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (.+)*-1
21:33:47 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 17.3
21:34:01 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (.+.)*-1
21:34:05 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 15.0
21:34:11 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (.++.)*-1
21:34:15 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 15.2
21:34:18 <quintopia> !bfjoust zoom (>)*9(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6])*20])*4(>[>(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6])*17])*5(>[>(>[>(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6])*12])*12])*12
21:34:19 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (.++.+.)*-1
21:34:21 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_zoom: 14.2
21:34:23 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 15.0
21:34:25 <oerjan> won't (.+)-1 lose if the opponent does nothing?
21:34:50 <quintopia> !bfjoust zoom (>)*9(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6])*20])*4(>[>(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6])*17])*17
21:34:53 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_zoom: 25.3
21:34:53 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (.+>.+<)*-1
21:34:56 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 12.6
21:36:19 <quintopia> david_werecat: it's interesting how zoom beats dreadnought and slowpoke and skyscraper despite not leaving any decoys and skipping some when it finds them
21:38:11 <david_werecat> So zoom assumes the enemy has decoys and tries to get to the flag immediately?
21:39:53 <quintopia> !bfjoust zoom (>)*8(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6])*20])*4(>[>(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6])*17])*17
21:39:56 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_zoom: 28.0
21:40:15 <quintopia> but it only assumes the enemy has decoys on long tapes
21:40:36 <quintopia> and it uses a new clear i just invented
21:41:03 <quintopia> so even against fast rushes (like space_elevator on short tape) it brings down the flag first
21:43:23 <david_werecat> The new clear looks like a fast clear merged with an offset clear repeated twice with different polarities.
21:46:25 <quintopia> it does a small fast clear, then a big offset clear...but assumes the decoy/flag won't be certain heights
21:46:47 <quintopia> it clears for a while, speed subtracts for a while, then clears some more, etc.
21:47:12 <quintopia> all the closing brackets are very susceptible to triplocks unfortunately, but i don't know how to deal with that
21:50:23 <david_werecat> If there's one place in the routine that would be a good point to break out of the clear loop, you can use null brackets {} to create copies of the clear routine inside the routine.
21:52:18 <david_werecat> Although zoom seems sufficently complex to make that very difficult to do.
21:56:27 <quintopia> !bfjoust zoom (>)*8(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6])*20])*4(>[(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6])*16])*17])*5(>[(>[(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6])*12])*12])*12
21:56:30 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_zoom: 22.2
21:56:52 <quintopia> !bfjoust zoom (>)*8(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6])*20])*4(>[>(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6])*17])*17
21:56:55 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_zoom: 28.0
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22:05:50 <ais523> quintopia: how does that program work?
22:06:16 <quintopia> ais523: read the conversation above. that pretty much covers it.
22:06:23 <ais523> oh, I see, it's a similar idea to counterpoke (the longer it takes to engage with the enemy, the more decoys it probably has)
22:07:15 <quintopia> the only other innovation is the assumption that decoys are certain sizes: very small or medium height or huge
22:07:32 <ais523> I think this is a legitimate addition to BF Joust technology that will start showing up in more programs (the counterpoke/zoom thing)
22:08:11 <ais523> wow counterpoke has fallen a lot
22:09:27 <ais523> because people are getting good at confusing it?
22:09:38 <quintopia> space_elevator already does a better decoy build (and always has). space_elevator's weakness is its clear (still)
22:10:17 <quintopia> expect skyscraper to rise i think. that strategy is hard to counter.
22:13:32 <ais523> it's very easy to counter, just clear with alternating polarities :)
22:13:40 <ais523> surprised nobody had thought of that
22:14:08 <quintopia> oh, yeah, i think i did that at one point a long time ago
22:14:28 <quintopia> space_elevator used to clear with alternating cycle lengths
22:14:44 <quintopia> the double clear is still in there
22:15:06 <quintopia> the problem with alternating polarity clear is that people frequently use alternating decoys
22:15:34 <ais523> I don't use alternating decoys any more, they're too vulnerable to people detecting the pattern (even though nobody's done that yet; maybe I should)
22:15:37 <quintopia> so half the time you get the *worst* possible set of clears
22:16:04 <ais523> I'm rather partial to the "a block in one direction, a block in the other direction" pattern, which works neatly no matter what the opponent's clear pattern
22:16:14 <quintopia> in space_elevator i made sure i had an equal number of decoys in each direction, but not with a pattern
22:19:56 <quintopia> !bfjoust zoom (>)*8(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6])*20])*4(>[(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6])*17])*17
22:19:59 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_zoom: 23.3
22:20:30 <quintopia> !bfjoust zoom (>)*8(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6])*20])*4(>[>(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6])*17])*17
22:20:33 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_zoom: 28.0
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22:20:48 <quintopia> apparently you should assume 2 decoys on long tapes
22:25:09 <quintopia> !bfjoust careless_zoom (>)*8(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6])*20])*4(>[>(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6])*17])*17
22:25:12 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_careless_zoom: 26.9
22:26:01 <quintopia> !bfjoust careless_zoom (>)*8(>[(-)*15([+{(-)*90(.-)*60}])%30(>[(-)*15(-)*90(.-)*60}])%30])*20])*4(>[>(>[(-)*15([+{(-)*90(.-)*60}])%30])*17])*17
22:26:04 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_careless_zoom: 0.0
22:41:41 <quintopia> !bfjoust impomatic_lessdumb (>(-)*8>(+)*8)*4(>[+++++[-]])*21
22:41:44 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_impomatic_lessdumb: 24.5
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22:45:00 <david_werecat> Wait, how is careless_zoom showing ties for everything?
22:45:44 <ais523> david_werecat: syntax error, probably
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22:59:25 <oerjan> unmatched } after second *60
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23:55:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Man, the Google results for "set fire to the third bar" are really disappointing.
23:56:12 <Phantom_Hoover> They're all just corrected to "set the fire to the third bar" and none of them are about serial arsonists.
23:59:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Sometimes when I fantasise about meeting a girl who shares my passion for burning things I really wish I had a song to go with it, you know?
00:00:29 <oerjan> "burning down the house"?
00:02:48 <itidus20> or Tay Zonday's I'm a hot hot surface baby. I'll get you melting on the carpet like a crispy chicken burger.
00:04:18 <Phantom_Hoover> ...itidus i don't know how chicken works in australia but here it doesn't melt
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00:11:13 -!- oerjan has set topic: waxing | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
00:18:36 <zzo38> What is this about waxing?
00:19:27 <oerjan> well it said waning before
00:19:48 <oerjan> which seemed so negative
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00:45:55 <itidus20> I'm a hot hot surface baby - Don't be nervous - I can melt you 'till you're dripping - all over the carpet
00:46:22 <itidus20> I'm a hot hot surface baby - At your service - I can hold you 'til you sizzle - like a juicy chicken burger
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01:50:30 <oerjan> we cannot tolerate such a thing here.
01:50:41 <BlueProtoman> Do algorithms with O(sin(x)) complexity exist?
01:52:41 <oerjan> that would mean it should use < 1 instructions on some input lengths.
01:53:54 <oerjan> you could probably contrive something not very useful
01:54:29 <oerjan> yes, that gets arbitrary close to 0.
01:54:29 <pikhq_> That means it'll sometimes take negative time.
01:55:09 <pikhq_> That... Doesn't change that at all, in fact.
01:55:13 <pikhq_> As it's assumed n > 0.
01:55:28 <oerjan> that still gets arbitrary close to 0.
01:55:56 <oerjan> if you interpret it as + a constant, then it's the same as O(1).
02:00:08 <pikhq_> http://sprunge.us/RThh Remind me again why gzip is more than ~100 lines?
02:03:03 <shachaf> Remind me again why true is more than ~3 lines?
02:03:37 <pikhq_> Because GNU hates all that is good.
02:04:14 <pikhq_> And thinks "int main(){return 0;}" suggests they have a small e-penis.
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02:21:37 <zzo38> Free Software Foundation tends to make large programs
02:22:34 <pikhq_> Sure, I'm cheating somewhat by using zlib. But, then, gzip
02:22:44 <zzo38> I would probably make some of the programs in assembly language/machine codes, still GPL licensed, and have those programs in C as well if you are loading them onto a computer where the program has not yet been written in assembly language for that computer. Some such program might include true/false
02:22:49 <pikhq_> 's gzip.c (main and a few util functions) is 600 lines.
02:23:00 <pikhq_> That's *just* main and a few util functions used in main.
02:23:22 <zzo38> Does that include comments and blank lines?
02:23:34 <pikhq_> Yeah, I'm just using wc -l
02:24:03 <pikhq_> wc -l says 1,876 why did I say 600
02:24:30 <pikhq_> GNU gzip's main is an OOM larger than that.
02:32:14 <oerjan> !c printf("%d", (unsigned short)1 > -1);
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02:50:14 <pikhq> For added perverseness: I'm not even using gzip well, and this is faster than gzip at decompression.
02:50:21 <pikhq> Erm, using zlib well.
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04:00:12 <david_werecat> !c FILE* base = fopen("/tmp/newfile","w"); if(base == NULL) { printf("Failed to open file."); return 0; }; fputs("Hello remote filesystem!",base); fflush(base); fclose(base); return 0;
04:01:19 <fungot> itidus20: i've seen others mentioned here, it can be
04:01:37 <fungot> itidus20: 1 for 1 cds) and buy strange old prog rock band
04:03:05 <david_werecat> !c FILE* base; char data[4095]; base = popen("/bin/ls /tmp/","r"); if(base == NULL) { printf("Failed to run command\n"); return 0; }; while(fgets(data, sizeof(data)-1, base) != NULL) { printf("%s", data); }; pclose(base); return 0;
04:06:29 <itidus20> !bfjoust narf -><>[+<[]+<]>+<[<+]><+>[<[>]<]><+[>]+<[>>]>-<>[<->++<>]><-[>+]+
04:06:32 <EgoBot> Score for itidus20_narf: 5.3
04:09:15 <itidus20> !bfjoust narf -><>+[+<[]+<]>+<+[<+]><+>+[<[>]<]><+[>]+<+[>>]>-<>+[<->++<>]><-[>+]+
04:09:17 <EgoBot> Score for itidus20_narf: 6.6
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04:40:11 <itidus20> so i saw someone link the dwarf fortress book in another channel.. the cellophane house era has begun
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21:44:40 <Taneb> Does it have spears?
21:44:40 <Phantom_Hoover> i.e. I used menacing wooden spikes instead of training spears.
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23:00:14 <oerjan> it's all the birds' fault http://phys.org/news/2012-06-giant-insects-evolution-birds.html
23:00:24 <Sgeo> I want to see a blind LP of NetHack
23:04:32 <elliott> Sgeo: unspoiled people do not generally win NetHack in less than a few years :P
23:04:42 <elliott> so it would have to be an awfully long-running LP.
23:04:58 <shachaf> elliott: Did you ever win NetHack. :-(
23:05:03 <Sgeo> Has an unspoiled person ever won?
23:05:17 <elliott> (At least, I'm 99% sure they have.)
23:05:41 <shachaf> "crawl > nethack" -- interhack developer
23:06:48 <elliott> Crawl has a boring early-game (OK, an incredibly boring early-game) and a fun mid-to-late-game.
23:07:01 <elliott> ais523 tells me NetHack is more like the opposite of that, so I probably won't play it much more.
23:07:08 <elliott> Except to ascend. I've got to ascend NetHack once before I die. It's a token thing.
23:07:21 <shachaf> elliott: I've never gotten to the Crawl mid-to-late game, so I wouldn't know.
23:07:24 <elliott> (I probably won't play it much more because its early game bores me, that is.)
23:07:27 <elliott> shachaf: How far have you gotten?
23:07:27 <shachaf> I ascended NetHack atheist wishless, though!
23:07:36 <shachaf> elliott: No idea. Not far.
23:07:46 <shachaf> I mostly played it when I was uninterested in thinking or being careful.
23:07:49 <elliott> shachaf: Have you seen the Lair?
23:07:58 <elliott> shachaf: Have you gotten to the last level of Lair?
23:07:59 <shachaf> I got killed by a death yak once.
23:08:13 <shachaf> It was, like, a while ago, man.
23:08:13 <elliott> 00:08 <Sequell> No games for elliott (killer=death yak).
23:08:18 <elliott> shachaf: What about the Orcish Mines?
23:08:31 <shachaf> (Though maybe I shouldn't have gone in so early.)
23:08:41 <elliott> (You should do Lair first.)
23:08:48 <elliott> What about Shoals, Swamp, Snake Pit, Elven Halls? (Slime Pits?)
23:09:26 <elliott> You've gone to Elf but haven't gotten a rune?
23:09:40 <elliott> Anyway, I define Crawl mid-to-late game as "first rune onwards", more or less.
23:09:50 <elliott> Then after the late game is extended. (I've never done extended. :( )
23:09:54 <shachaf> Well, you should ascend NetHack.
23:10:16 <shachaf> Val/Sam has an easy early game, so you could play that.
23:10:16 <elliott> shachaf: The furthest I've gotten in NetHack is doing Sokoban in the Mines as a Valkyrie dwarf.
23:10:23 <shachaf> ("Val/Sam" is like "C/C++".)
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23:10:37 <elliott> It was very boring, except for the part where I angered the Keystone Kops.
23:11:00 <elliott> #nethack got me out of that situation by having me steal something and then repay the shopkeeper, which calmed the Kops down.
23:11:03 <shachaf> elliott: If you kill the shopkeeper, the Kops never come.
23:11:05 <elliott> Did you know NetHack doesn't make much sense?
23:11:36 <elliott> I don't really like NetHack.
23:11:50 <shachaf> elliott: You should play it to the end!
23:12:02 <shachaf> In the late game in NetHack you become invincible.
23:12:05 <elliott> shachaf: Even ais523 said NetHack probably isn't the game for me.
23:12:08 <shachaf> And you can kill anything by hitting it.
23:12:12 <elliott> And yes, that's boring as hell.
23:12:32 <elliott> I would play NetHack if they made an analogue of Crawl's sprint mode where it's just the Astral Plane.
23:12:36 <elliott> (Or maybe all of the planes.)
23:12:47 <shachaf> Well, maybe not the Astral Plane.
23:12:52 <shachaf> The Plane of Water is really boring.
23:12:53 <elliott> The Astral Plane isn't! Or at least it doesn't look boring.
23:12:56 <elliott> I've never played it, naturally.
23:13:03 <shachaf> You gotta ascend NetHack at least once before you die, man!
23:13:07 <elliott> ais523 thinks the Astral Plane is the best level, I think.
23:13:18 <shachaf> The Astral Plane is pretty good.
23:13:24 <shachaf> You would probably use the Astral Call Bug.
23:13:48 <elliott> It's fixed on the public servers, so I hear, anyway.
23:13:53 <elliott> And offline play isn't cool.
23:14:02 <elliott> shachaf: I bet you play with terminals bigger than 80x24.
23:14:03 <shachaf> Guess what OTHER patch is applied to public servers?
23:14:16 <elliott> Sorry - I mean - not yours.
23:14:31 <shachaf> Hey, I wrote the actual code in it!
23:14:51 <shachaf> You can ask the other person whose name is on the patch?
23:14:59 <shachaf> Not that you'd believe him.
23:15:09 <shachaf> elliott: I bet you're cheater_.
23:15:17 <elliott> shachaf: Would *you* trust the guy who made YAML?
23:15:46 <elliott> I notice you haven't responded to the hugeterm allegation.
23:15:57 <shachaf> I play on 80x24, thank you very much.
23:16:04 <shachaf> I don't even get the point of hugeterm.
23:16:05 <Sgeo> Hey, I wrote a patch for NetHack
23:16:09 <shachaf> Do you get to see more of the map in Crawl?
23:16:26 <elliott> shachaf: Yes, or a bigger message area.
23:16:32 <shachaf> In NetHack you see the entire map on the screen anyway.
23:16:33 -!- monqy has joined.
23:16:36 <shachaf> And there's no message area.
23:16:37 <elliott> shachaf: But you can also just make the message area smaller to see all of the map.
23:16:41 <shachaf> We should let monqy settle this.
23:16:49 <lambdabot> monqy: You have 6 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
23:18:55 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
23:20:39 <shachaf> elliott: Do you claim there isn't a dispute?
23:20:44 <shachaf> That sounds like a dispute for monqy to settle.
23:20:44 <elliott> monqy: Who wrote this patch? http://ben-kiki.org/oren/statuscolors/index.html
23:20:50 <shachaf> elliott: Oh, I meant hugeterm.
23:21:21 <elliott> We both agreed it's stupid.
23:21:34 <shachaf> monqy: Is hugeterm stupid?
23:21:48 <shachaf> monqy: Also, should elliott ascend at NetHack at least once before he dies.
23:22:51 <monqy> hugeterm is stupid
23:23:00 <monqy> I don't care whether elliott ascends nh or not
23:23:38 <elliott> (In Crawl, the "ascending" is walking up a bunch of stairs!)
23:23:47 <elliott> shachaf: Did you know the way to win Crawl is to run away form things?
23:24:08 <shachaf> elliott: In NetHack, "ascending" is walking up a bunch of stairs!
23:24:13 <shachaf> Except for the mysterious force.
23:24:19 <shachaf> Do you even know what that is? :-(
23:24:29 <elliott> I know of it! I forget what it is.
23:24:38 <elliott> (You ascend to demigodhood.)
23:24:54 <shachaf> (You ascend up the figurative demigodhood stairs.)
23:25:15 <elliott> shachaf: Did you know that Debian applies a patch to NetHack that changes the gameplay?
23:25:29 <elliott> The 95_enh_engulf_prayers.dpatch patch makes being engulfed a major trouble, so that a successful prayer while engulfed will get you expelled and cause the engulfing monster to flee.
23:25:44 <shachaf> elliott: Do you know what the WORST PART OF NETHACK is?
23:25:49 <quintopia> !bfjoust 3pac >+>->+>->+>->+>---<++<--<++<--<++<(-)*8>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*15([-{[.-](>[(+)*3([-{(-)*15[+]}])%6])*21}])%30}])%6](+)*2)*21
23:25:49 <lambdabot> quintopia: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
23:25:55 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_3pac: 30.5
23:25:56 <shachaf> Hint: It's the "wraps itself around you" thing.
23:26:03 <elliott> To quote squarelos, "nethack is weird".
23:26:29 <shachaf> "The giant eel swings itself around you!" <-- worst part of NetHack
23:26:55 <shachaf> Unless you do one of a few weird things.
23:27:07 <shachaf> Like levitate (if you're not levitating) or unlevitate (if you're levitating).
23:27:07 <elliott> I do not like instadeath effects.
23:27:15 <shachaf> But taking off boots of levitation takes more than one turn!
23:27:32 <shachaf> You can also teleport the eel away. Or yourself, unless you're on a no-teleport level!
23:27:36 <elliott> (You should just lose HP and MHP a bunch until it's 0 or something.)
23:28:11 <shachaf> Slowly the things you like become more and more mainstream?
23:29:19 <elliott> Did you know there was a time when people on reddit didn't complain about hipsters?
23:29:37 <elliott> (It wasn't the good old days, though. It was bad in another ways instead)
23:29:47 <shachaf> It wasn't that bad five years ago!
23:30:00 <elliott> It wasn't *that* bad. But it was still pretty bad.
23:31:13 <monqy> did you know: iv'e never reddit
23:31:21 <monqy> monqy facts, brought to you by monqy
23:31:32 <elliott> monqy: Continue this state.
23:31:48 <elliott> Wow, what a pretentous wording.
23:31:55 <elliott> monqy: Can you punch me for saying that?
23:32:02 <monqy> consider yourself puncht
23:32:17 <shachaf> elliott: do you hate people who say words like
23:32:42 <elliott> "puncht" is not "punch'd".
23:32:59 <shachaf> I'm not talking about "puncht".
23:33:13 <shachaf> I'm TALKING ABOUT THE APOSTROPHE.
23:34:44 <quintopia> !bfjoust 3pac >+>->+>->+>->+>---<++<--<++<--<++<(-)*8>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*15([-{[.-](>[(+)*3([-{(-)*15[.+](>[(-)*3([+{(+)*15[-]}])%6])*21}])%6])*21}])%30}])%6](+)*2)*21
23:34:47 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_3pac: 30.1
23:37:00 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
23:44:22 <shachaf> elliott: You know jkff from #haskell?
23:44:53 <elliott> Are they new or something?
23:45:11 <shachaf> jkff is Eugene Kirpichov (as I just discovered).
23:49:28 -!- Patashu has joined.
23:52:10 <elliott> Oh, the htrace person. OK. So?
23:57:20 <quintopia> !bfjoust 3pac >+>->+>->+>->+>---<++<--<++<--<++<(-)*8>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8(>[((-)*3([+{(+)*15([-{[-]}])%30}])%6>)*3((+)*3([-{(-)*15[+]}])%6>)*18](+)*2)*21
23:57:23 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_3pac: 35.5
23:58:02 -!- Patashu has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:58:24 -!- Patashu has joined.
23:59:06 <quintopia> !bfjoust 3pac >+>->+>->+>->+>---<++<--<++<--<++<(-)*20>(+)*20>(-)*8>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8(>[((-)*3([+{(+)*15([-{[-]}])%30}])%6>)*3((+)*3([-{(-)*15[+]}])%6>)*18](+)*2)*21
23:59:09 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_3pac: 37.2
00:00:35 <elliott> Is that the sequel to 2Pac?
00:09:03 <quintopia> !bfjoust 3pac >+>->+>->+>->+>---<++<--<++<--<++<--<(+)*20>(-)*20>(+)*15>(-)*15>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8(>[((-)*3([+{(+)*15([-{[-]}])%30}])%6>)*3((+)*3([-{(-)*25[+]}])%6>)*18](+)*2)*21
00:09:06 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_3pac: 43.4
00:09:37 <quintopia> it is now officially my highest scoring program
00:09:47 <quintopia> (thanks myndzi for the 3pass idea)
00:11:01 <elliott> shachaf: What I meant by "so" is, why should I know who Eugene Kirpichov is?
00:11:25 <quintopia> plus it switches the polarity of its clear 3 cells after the first one
00:11:36 <quintopia> plus a huge offset for later decoys
00:11:53 <shachaf> elliott: I asked about jkff, not Eugene Kirpichov.
00:12:10 <quintopia> (note to self: ask ais if this is the first program that increases its offset size the more decoys it encounters)
00:13:27 <quintopia> @ask ais523 has anyone before written a program that uses larger offsets on longer tapes?
00:13:53 <elliott> ...It might help to give more context than that.
00:14:53 <shachaf> @tell ais523 has anyone before quintopia written a program that uses larger offsets on longer tapes?
00:17:25 <quintopia> !bfjoust 3pac >+>->+>->+>->+>---<++<--<++<--<++<--<(+)*20>(-)*20>(+)*15>(-)*15>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8(>[((-)*3([+{(+)*15([-{[-]}])%30}])%6>)*3((+)*3([-{(-)*40[+]}])%6>)*18](+)*2)*21
00:17:27 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_3pac: 45.1
00:17:39 <quintopia> note to self: huger offsets = better :P
00:18:28 <quintopia> it now beats all of Deewiant's programs
00:18:56 <shachaf> !bfjoust hi (->->->->->++[+>->]-)*100000
00:18:59 <EgoBot> Score for shachaf_hi: 0.0
00:19:23 <shachaf> Has anyone gotten a score of 0.0 before?
00:21:38 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_shachafislame: 0.0
00:21:51 <quintopia> !bfjoust 3pac >+>->+>->+>->+>---<++<--<++<--<++<--<(+)*20>(-)*20>(+)*15>(-)*15>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8(>[((-)*3([+{(+)*15([-{[-]}])%30}])%6>)*3((-)*3([+{(+)*25[-]}])%6>)*3((+)*3([-{(-)*40[+]}])%6>)*15](+)*2)*21
00:21:53 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_3pac: 41.4
00:22:14 <quintopia> !bfjoust 3pac >+>->+>->+>->+>---<++<--<++<--<++<--<(+)*20>(-)*20>(+)*15>(-)*15>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8(>[((-)*3([+{(+)*15([-{[-]}])%30}])%6>)*3((+)*3([-{(-)*40[+]}])%6>)*18](+)*2)*21
00:22:17 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_3pac: 45.1
00:22:20 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
00:22:31 <EgoBot> Score for shachaf_oh___: 0.0
00:22:36 <shachaf> I don't even know the rules.
00:22:54 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust
00:22:56 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust_strategies
00:23:04 <quintopia> its not like there isnt a BUTTLOAD OF DOCUMENTATION :P
00:23:51 <shachaf> I don't even know how to read. :-(
00:24:02 <shachaf> If you think what I'm saying is a reponse to something you're saying, you're wrong.
00:25:43 <elliott> @tell david_werecat Sorry, EgoBot actually uses gearlance.c, not chainlance.c (in the same repository; http://git.zem.fi/chainlance/blob/HEAD:/gearlance.c).
00:30:33 <quintopia> !bfjoust 3pac >+>->+>->+>->+>---<++<--<++<--<++<--<(+)*20>(-)*20>(+)*15>(-)*15>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8(>[((-)*3([+{(+)*25[-]}])%6>)*3((+)*3([-{(-)*40[+]}])%6>)*18](+)*2)*21
00:30:36 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_3pac: 48.5
00:31:28 <quintopia> lol i made it to beat skyscraper and it doesn't even do that anymore :P
00:34:08 <quintopia> !bfjoust 3pac >+>->+>->+>->+>---<++<--<++<--<++<--<(+)*20>(-)*20>(+)*15>(-)*15>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8(>[((-)*3([+{(+)*25[-][+]}])%6>)*3((+)*3([-{(-)*40[+][-]}])%6>)*18](+)*2)*21
00:34:11 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_3pac: 49.1
00:41:41 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:42:20 -!- Nisstyre has joined.
01:08:48 <elliott> shachaf: How do I ascend NetHack?
01:09:00 <monqy> nethack sounds boring to ascend
01:09:07 <shachaf> elliott: Sacrifice the Amulet of Yendor to Anhur.
01:09:15 <elliott> shachaf: Which one is Anhur?
01:09:34 <elliott> shachaf: Which is the one dwarf valkyries start with?
01:09:36 <monqy> but for which class
01:09:36 <shachaf> You want to be chaotic if you can manage it.
01:09:55 <elliott> shachaf: Yes it is? I think.
01:09:57 <shachaf> Val and Sam can't be chaotic. :-(
01:10:07 <elliott> monqy: You have to do it sometime in your life.
01:10:27 <monqy> it sounds so boring
01:10:35 <monqy> i just don't want to bother
01:10:46 <monqy> and so many stupid things i'd have to do
01:11:14 <elliott> monqy: But have you *seen* the Astral Plane?
01:11:36 <monqy> it looks like a lot of clearing messages
01:11:52 <shachaf> The Astral Plane: MAXIMUM FUN
01:11:54 <elliott> You could use an interface that has multiple lines of messages.
01:12:15 <monqy> is the astral plane actually fun
01:12:22 <elliott> shachaf: Is the Astral Plane actually fun?
01:12:31 <elliott> monqy: It *looks* fun, and ais523 says it's the best level of NetHack.
01:12:41 <shachaf> elliott: Well, I've died there.
01:12:51 <shachaf> Which means there's risk! Which makes it fun.
01:12:57 <monqy> i don't trust ais' roguelike opinions; he likes identification
01:13:08 <elliott> monqy: Well, he clarified that a bit.
01:13:19 <elliott> (He hates Crawl's identification system.)
01:13:27 <elliott> (NetHack's identification system is admittedly much less degenerate.)
01:13:28 <monqy> but he likes nethack's, no?
01:13:38 <elliott> (I still don't like it. But it's much better than Crawl's.)
01:13:46 <elliott> (FWIW, IIRC dtsund thinks the same.)
01:13:58 <shachaf> elliott: Did you know: If you #name-no a scroll labeled "VELOX NEB" "VELOX NEB", you have a 100% chance of writing it with a magic marker?
01:14:05 <shachaf> I mean, writing the thing it identifies to, if you try.
01:14:11 <shachaf> Even if you don't identify it.
01:14:32 <shachaf> Ask ais523 -- Interhack supports it, after all.
01:14:36 <elliott> shachaf: I didn't understand what you said.
01:14:43 <elliott> Also, ais523 never developed Interhack AFAIK.
01:14:49 <shachaf> elliott: You know about #name-no?
01:15:07 <elliott> Yes. It names objects and stuff.
01:15:27 <shachaf> Right. If you say "no", it names a type of object, instead of a specific one.
01:15:36 <shachaf> So you can name "VELOX NEB" "maybe scare monster??"
01:15:44 <shachaf> Like { or \ or whatever it is in Crawl.
01:15:55 <elliott> I... think you mean inscription.
01:15:56 <monqy> crawl doesn't have naming a type of object
01:16:09 <shachaf> Anyway, Crawl isn't the point here.
01:16:10 <monqy> { is inscription but
01:16:24 <monqy> inscription doesn't apply to a whole type of item
01:16:34 * shachaf , knower of more Crawl keybindings than elliott
01:16:55 <shachaf> So if you #name-no a scroll labeled "VELOX NEB" "VELOX NEB", you'd think it wouldn't do anything useful, right?
01:17:02 <elliott> shachaf: Anyway, how do I get past the point where I suicide before finding the entrance to the Mines or Sokoban because I'm bored as hell?
01:17:14 <elliott> (Go on before answering that.)
01:17:18 <shachaf> elliott: You could do the mines first.
01:17:25 <shachaf> elliott: So let's say VELOX NEB is a scroll of wishing.
01:17:43 <shachaf> Now, if you attempt to write "a scroll of wishing" with a magic marker, you'll always succeed!
01:17:56 <shachaf> Because it thinks you "know" wishing, because you #named-no a scroll of wishing earlier!
01:18:22 <elliott> Anyway, how the hell can I do Mines before finding the entrance to Mines?
01:18:32 <shachaf> The mines are always on level 2/3/4.
01:18:38 <shachaf> Which is earlier than Sokoban.
01:18:39 <quintopia> !bfjoust 3pac >+>->+>->+>->+>(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*15<(+)*15<(-)*20<(+)*40>(-)*20>(+)*15>(-)*15>>>>>(>[((-)*3([+{(+)*25[-][+]}])%6>)*3((+)*3([-{(-)*40[+][-]}])%6>)*18](+)*2)*21
01:18:42 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_3pac: 55.3
01:19:03 <shachaf> elliott: I find early Crawl more boring than early NetHack.
01:19:11 <monqy> early crawl is awful too
01:19:20 <shachaf> elliott: Anyway, you could play pacifist. That's not boring, right?
01:19:25 <elliott> 02:19 <shachaf> elliott: I find early Crawl more boring than early NetHack.
01:19:29 <elliott> But you know what early Crawl has?
01:19:42 <shachaf> But even with o I find it more boring.
01:19:44 <elliott> (I know NetHack 4 has autoexplore. NetHack 4 is not yet playable.)
01:19:47 <coppro> shachaf: that sounds like a bug that ought to be fixed.
01:19:50 <shachaf> Maybe because it lasts for so much longer.
01:19:51 <coppro> elliott: it is totally playable
01:19:53 <elliott> coppro: Of course it's a bug.
01:19:55 <monqy> shachaf: do you hit o and tab fast enough
01:19:57 <shachaf> coppro: Tell ais523 about it!
01:20:02 <elliott> coppro: It is not, I tried it a while ago; it's insufficiently polished.
01:20:06 <elliott> (I was talking to ais523 at the time.)
01:20:12 <monqy> don't play desu wow
01:20:13 <elliott> shachaf: And OK, but it's a boringness I can stand.
01:20:17 <elliott> And don't play Su if you don't want to be bored.
01:20:18 <coppro> elliott:where in logs?
01:20:26 <monqy> desu is just asking to be bored
01:20:36 <shachaf> That's why I don't play Crawl!
01:20:38 <elliott> (By "stand", I mean "phase out".)
01:21:05 <elliott> (The joke is that that's <bold>physically impossible</bold>.)
01:21:28 <elliott> Mountain Dwarf Fighter, the most popular combo. The joke is that Mountain Dwarves don't exist any more.
01:21:35 <elliott> Now everyone plays MiFi instead!
01:21:48 <elliott> coppro: Most of the complaints were trivial interface stuff ais523 said he'd fix.
01:22:00 <monqy> Sgeo: joke's it's Dg
01:22:15 <elliott> shachaf: Minotaur Fighter.
01:22:31 <elliott> coppro: But it also feels weird in a way NetHack doesn't that I can't quite put my finger on.
01:22:36 <monqy> Sgeo: i think there's still some DgBe in sequell too
01:22:36 <elliott> NetHack feels weird too, after so much Crawl.
01:22:48 <elliott> 02:22 <Sequell> 2. rob the Ducker (L2 DGBe), killed by the fiery rage of Trog on D:1 on 2008-10-05, with 96 points after 840 turns and 0:03:31.
01:22:50 <monqy> Sgeo: they were back from when Dg was DG
01:22:55 <elliott> I guess Trog doesn't like Demigods.
01:22:57 <coppro> elliott: that's normal for roguelikes
01:23:05 <elliott> 02:23 <Sequell> 1. test the Chopper (L1 DGBe), worshipper of Trog, mangled by an orc (a +0,+0 orcish club) on D:1 on 2008-05-27, with 63 points after 386 turns and 0:07:26.
01:23:11 <quintopia> !bfjoust 3pac >+>->+>->+>->+>(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*15<(+)*15<(-)*20<(+)*40>(-)*20>(+)*15>(-)*15>>>>>(>[((-)*3([+{(+)*40[-][+]}])%6>)*3((+)*3([-{(-)*40[+][-]}])%6>)*18](+)*2)*21
01:23:13 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_3pac: 56.7
01:23:18 <coppro> elliott: going from one to another does feel weird
01:23:23 <Sgeo> How does DGBe exist?
01:23:27 <elliott> coppro: Anyway, I'd rather play NetHack than NetHack 4, because I have to win NetHack sometime in my life, but I don't have to win NetHack 4 sometime in my life.
01:23:37 <coppro> When I go back to ADOM after NetHAck, I invariably am insufficiently afraid of doors
01:23:37 <elliott> 02:23 <Sequell> 2. [cv=0.5-a] rob the Ducker (L2 DGBe), killed by the fiery rage of Trog on D:1 on 2008-10-05, with 96 points after 840 turns and 0:03:31.
01:23:48 <shachaf> elliott: What if I watch you play NetHack?
01:23:59 <elliott> Sgeo: ??syllogism[2] exists for the same reason, presumably.
01:24:00 <monqy> I've also been thoroughly convinced I don't want to play adom
01:24:04 <elliott> shachaf: Sure. Will you offer HELPFUL ADVICE?
01:24:06 <Sgeo> What's the "reason"?
01:24:24 <shachaf> elliott: HELPFUL ADVICE: Scrolls of mail actually take a turn to read in NetHack!
01:24:42 <elliott> 02:24 <Sequell> One game for * (dg god!=): DGBe
01:25:07 <elliott> shachaf: Anyway, what's the best server in Europe?
01:25:11 <elliott> NAO lags a bit too much for me.
01:25:15 <shachaf> Real programmers play on NAO.
01:25:26 <elliott> coppro: I played ADOM for five minutes. I don't want to play ADOM any more.
01:25:27 <shachaf> Like that one patch that...
01:25:37 <shachaf> elliott: That just means you have to think more about your moves.
01:25:50 <monqy> what makes you think you have to ascend nethack, anyway
01:25:53 <elliott> monqy: Tell shachaf why lag matters even in turn-based games.
01:25:56 <shachaf> elliott: (NAO lagged for me too when I was on your continent.)
01:26:03 <shachaf> (By your continent I mean Asia.)
01:26:08 <monqy> shachaf: lag matters even in turn-based games.
01:26:13 <elliott> Asia is indeed my continent.
01:26:32 <elliott> shachaf: Anyway, OK, I'll try NAO.
01:26:38 <Sgeo> Why are Europe and Asia considered different continents?
01:26:40 <elliott> shachaf: What char should I play?
01:26:49 <shachaf> Sgeo: Europe isn't a continent. It's just a peninsula.
01:26:51 <elliott> Sgeo: Because "continent" doesn't mean anything.
01:26:57 <shachaf> elliott: That depends. You want it to be easy, right?
01:27:01 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasia#Overview
01:27:11 <elliott> shachaf: I want to have fun, preferably early on.
01:27:18 <elliott> But I'd also like something not impossible to ascend for a beginner.
01:27:25 <shachaf> elliott: Anyway, play either Val/Sam for a meleer or Wiz for a magic user.
01:27:32 <elliott> i.e. I want to play with the intention of winning, but not be bored out of my skull.
01:27:36 <coppro> elliott: 'twas my first roguelike
01:27:37 <elliott> shachaf: I played Val. It was boring.
01:27:41 <coppro> elliott: it's still bloody hard
01:27:51 <elliott> shachaf: That's not helpful. :(
01:27:58 <elliott> When do they get non-boring?
01:28:12 <elliott> shachaf: I might play a wizard.
01:28:17 <elliott> shachaf: But I've never cast a single spell in NetHack.
01:28:24 <Sgeo> Today I Learned that "antiquity" is an actual historical period and not just a vague reference to the past
01:28:36 <shachaf> elliott: In the late game wizards can get by pretty well with melee.
01:28:48 <shachaf> Well, they're not *that* bad.
01:28:58 <shachaf> They become significantly better if you sacrifice for Magicbane?
01:29:05 <elliott> shachaf: Can NAO be accessed via ssh?
01:29:22 <Sgeo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasia#Overview linked to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_antiquity
01:29:47 <elliott> shachaf: How do I access NAO?
01:30:39 <elliott> Aww, there is already an "elliott".
01:30:53 <elliott> No. Well, he doesn't have my password.
01:30:56 <shachaf> elliott: Wait, haven't I seen you play NetHack before?
01:30:56 <elliott> And he's on the high scores list.
01:31:01 <monqy> see I tried logging on as squarelos and there wasn't a squarelos but then I tried monqy and it worked
01:31:09 <Sgeo> Pretty sure elliott's played before
01:31:10 <shachaf> Maybe it was on termcast or something.
01:31:12 <elliott> monqy: Oh, are you playing too?
01:31:17 <Sgeo> People were helping elliott play
01:31:21 <elliott> shachaf: By the way, can I skip Sokoban?
01:31:22 <monqy> elliott: i'm just here to send you mail
01:31:23 <Sgeo> He angered a shopkeeper I think
01:31:27 <shachaf> http://alt.org/nethack/plr.php?player=ehird
01:31:30 <elliott> Sgeo: No, I angered the Kops.
01:31:35 <elliott> Angering a shopkeeper was part of the escape plan.
01:31:38 <shachaf> elliott: There's a bag of holding in Sokoban, though.
01:31:40 <elliott> shachaf: How painful would that be?
01:31:47 <elliott> (Sometimes it's something else.)
01:31:54 <monqy> "reflection i think yes
01:31:55 <shachaf> But the bag of holding is better.
01:32:05 <elliott> Sgeo: If you steal from a shopkeeper then pay it back, the Kops will forgive you.
01:32:10 <elliott> Because they think they got angry because you stole, see?
01:32:19 <shachaf> Because you're a wizard, and on your first wish you're going to get a blessed greased fixed +n silver dragon scale mail!
01:32:21 <elliott> So since they get angry when you steal, repaying a debt always calms the Kops down.
01:32:25 <Sgeo> How did the Kops get summoned without angering shopkeeper?
01:32:36 <elliott> (Summoned? They're always present.)
01:32:44 <shachaf> elliott: Oh, you can sometimes just pay a shopkeeper off to unanger them.
01:32:49 <shachaf> Whether or not you stole something.
01:32:58 <Sgeo> elliott, they get summoned when you steal
01:33:07 <Sgeo> elliott, oh, are there loose roaming cops in Minetown?
01:33:07 <elliott> Sgeo: They were wandering about before I stole.
01:33:11 <elliott> shachaf: Can I just use the default options file?
01:33:17 <elliott> shachaf: Does it have reasonable autopickup settings?
01:33:18 <shachaf> elliott: You want to enable OPTIONS=hpmon
01:33:26 <elliott> Why? Because statuscolors sucks?
01:33:44 <shachaf> (I actually meant to say statuscolors. But either works.)
01:33:44 <elliott> Oh, wait, I have to use the options file if I want to name my pet, don't I?
01:33:50 <quintopia> !bfjoust 3pac >+>->+>->+>->+>(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*15<(+)*15<(-)*20<(+)*40>(-)*20>(+)*15>(-)*15>>>>>(>[((-)*3([+{(+)*30[-][+]}])%6>)*3((+)*3([-{(-)*40[+][-]}])%6>)*18](+)*2)*21
01:33:51 <shachaf> You can name your pet in-game.
01:33:52 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_3pac: 56.8
01:34:07 <elliott> shachaf: Did you know I'm going to turn off DECgraphics?
01:34:23 <elliott> shachaf: Do you turn off DECgraphics, too?
01:34:23 <shachaf> elliott: You should steal Eidolos's config file.
01:34:37 <shachaf> http://alt.org/nethack/userdata/s/shachaf/shachaf.nh343rc
01:34:38 <elliott> See, I *like* DECgraphics. But it looks weird in my terminal.
01:34:42 <elliott> Because the vertical bars don't meet.
01:35:01 <monqy> maybe your terminal and/or font is bad
01:35:03 <elliott> shachaf: Does the default configuration file have menucolors?
01:35:11 <shachaf> elliott: I don't think so?
01:35:18 <shachaf> menucolors needs to have regexps explicitly enabled.
01:35:26 <elliott> shachaf: I mean "default" as in "NAO default".
01:35:32 <shachaf> I don't think NAO has a default?
01:35:38 <shachaf> Vanilla NetHack has no menucolors.
01:35:45 -!- MoALTz_ has joined.
01:35:55 <shachaf> elliott: Guess what I played a bit of yesterday!
01:35:59 <shachaf> Hint: The answer is Psychonauts.
01:36:15 <elliott> MENUCOLOR=" blessed "=green
01:36:21 <elliott> MENUCOLOR=" cursed .* (being worn)"=orange&underline
01:36:30 <elliott> shachaf: Guess "u" "r" "wrong".
01:36:43 <elliott> monqy: Did you know if you use the curses interface, the message window becomes multiple lines? Also everything becomes ugly?
01:36:55 <elliott> I have OPTIONS=hp_monitor.
01:36:56 <shachaf> elliott: The problem with Psychonauts is that the early game is boring.
01:37:04 <quintopia> !bfjoust 3pac >+>->+>->+>->+>(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*15<(+)*15<(-)*20<(+)*40>(-)*20>(+)*15>(-)*15>>>>>(>[((-)*3([+{(+)*30[-][+]}])%6>)*3((+)*3([-{(-)*50[+][-]}])%6>)*18](+)*2)*21
01:37:06 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_3pac: 45.1
01:37:12 <quintopia> !bfjoust 3pac >+>->+>->+>->+>(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*15<(+)*15<(-)*20<(+)*40>(-)*20>(+)*15>(-)*15>>>>>(>[((-)*3([+{(+)*30[-][+]}])%6>)*3((+)*3([-{(-)*40[+][-]}])%6>)*18](+)*2)*21
01:37:15 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_3pac: 56.8
01:37:19 <shachaf> elliott: It gets interesting after you finish the annoying levitation place, more or less.
01:37:24 <quintopia> !bfjoust 3pac >+>->+>->+>->+>(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*15<(+)*15<(-)*20<(+)*40>(-)*20>(+)*15>(-)*15>>>>>(>[((-)*3([+{(+)*30[-][+]}])%6>)*3((+)*3([-{(-)*45[+][-]}])%6>)*18](+)*2)*21
01:37:24 <elliott> shachaf: Does statuscolors not have reasonable defaults?
01:37:26 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_3pac: 53.8
01:37:33 <shachaf> elliott: Nope. It has no defaults.
01:37:39 <quintopia> !bfjoust 3pac >+>->+>->+>->+>(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*15<(+)*15<(-)*20<(+)*40>(-)*20>(+)*15>(-)*15>>>>>(>[((-)*3([+{(+)*35[-][+]}])%6>)*3((+)*3([-{(-)*40[+][-]}])%6>)*18](+)*2)*21
01:37:42 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_3pac: 57.7
01:37:51 <shachaf> elliott: Do you know the #name-y artifact bug?
01:38:16 <elliott> Anyway, I'm going to play NetHack.
01:38:23 <monqy> do you know the elbereth bug
01:38:27 <shachaf> Would ~half an hour from now work?
01:38:45 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
01:39:13 <elliott> shachaf: Did you know I don't like Elbereth?
01:39:29 <elliott> But I can't not use it, because it'd be purposefully hurting my play.
01:39:39 <shachaf> elliott: People have ascended Elberethless.
01:39:39 <elliott> monqy: Can you make a monqy NetHack conduct that involves no Elbereth?
01:39:42 <elliott> It'd be like not casting meph.
01:39:51 <monqy> elliott: just like how in crawl you do labyrithss and cast meph
01:39:54 <shachaf> elliott: That goes under the conduct of "illiterate".
01:39:55 <elliott> Elberethless is probably the least impressive conduct anyone has ever ascended with.
01:39:58 <shachaf> Also scrolls and spellbooks.
01:40:19 <shachaf> elliott: How about: VEGETARIAN
01:40:24 <shachaf> That conduct is less impressive.
01:40:43 <elliott> http://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Autopickup_exception This seems excessive.
01:40:49 <elliott> Is there something wrong with "autopickup,pickup_types:$?!/"="?
01:40:52 <elliott> {{autopickup,pickup_types:$?!/"=}}?
01:41:10 <shachaf> elliott: I like to autopickup,pickup_types:$
01:41:42 <shachaf> And a few other exceptions like magic lamps, I guess?
01:41:56 <shachaf> There's a lot of junk lying around, "d00d".
01:42:40 <monqy> i remember when i played nethack i didn't like autopickup because my autopickup autopicked up corpses while i was fighting
01:42:47 <elliott> Can you edit your NAO rc online?
01:42:48 <monqy> i didn't like that
01:42:51 <elliott> This vi-style editor is annoying.
01:43:13 <monqy> i also remember not knowing about elbereth or anything like that
01:43:22 <monqy> or how to start the quest
01:43:24 <shachaf> alt.org/nethack/EDITMYNETHACKRCORSOMETHING
01:43:36 <elliott> I don't know how to start the quest. But I know Elbereth.
01:43:40 <elliott> Can you set a macro up for Elbereth?
01:43:41 <monqy> or how to identify items!
01:43:45 <shachaf> monqy: Autopickingup all % is probably a bad idea.
01:43:49 <shachaf> elliott: You can in Interhack!
01:43:56 <elliott> shachaf: Wow, there's an online editor that uses HTML forms.
01:44:01 <elliott> Rather than a direct editor.
01:44:01 <monqy> better play interhack
01:44:03 <elliott> This is too fancy. Too fancy.
01:44:04 <shachaf> elliott: Yes, but don't use that.
01:44:14 <shachaf> (Or do use it. I don't know.)
01:44:26 <shachaf> Does it support statuscolors?
01:44:31 <elliott> shachaf: Did you know there's a NetHack bug where doors sometimes don't open in one try?
01:44:47 <elliott> And yes, it does. But I'm not going to use it.
01:44:54 <shachaf> elliott: Did you ever hear the story of the time I died in NetHack because of not speaking English well?
01:45:04 <shachaf> elliott: Also, if you're a wizard: Elbereth becomes *way* better once you get Magicbane.
01:45:14 <shachaf> elliott: Well, I noticed that "the door resists!" meant that it was stuck.
01:45:20 <shachaf> So I zapped a wand at a shopkeeper.
01:45:27 <shachaf> And it said "the shopkeeper resists!"
01:45:35 <shachaf> So I thought the shopkeeper was stuck and walked over to hit him.
01:46:05 <elliott> (Weren't you kind of dead at that point anyway?)
01:46:09 <elliott> shachaf: Hey, what should I call my cat?
01:46:13 <elliott> monqy: Can I call my cat "monqy"?
01:46:21 <elliott> shachaf: Oh, does zapping at a shk not anger it?
01:46:24 <elliott> I'm not going to call it monqy.
01:46:27 <elliott> I'm going to call it squarelos.
01:46:27 <shachaf> elliott: It was already angry.
01:46:33 <shachaf> But I was at the door; I could've escaped.
01:46:39 <elliott> monqy: Is calling it squarelos better than calling it monqy?
01:47:03 <elliott> monqy: Also, sign up as squarelos. I can't receive mail from monqy, it feels odd.
01:47:32 <elliott> shachaf: Should I turn on showborn?
01:48:00 <shachaf> elliott: showborn doesn't really matter?
01:48:15 <elliott> I like how [[nethackwiki:Options]] is ridiculously NAO-biased.
01:48:18 <elliott> Obsolete. NAO used to have the HPmon-patch, but uses now Statuscolors.
01:48:29 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:48:29 <elliott> Oh, that's in the "NAO" section. Okay.
01:48:47 <elliott> shachaf: The default rc *does* do statuscolors.
01:48:53 <elliott> Should I turn on the other ones?
01:48:57 <shachaf> "NAO": "Not Another Option"
01:49:14 <elliott> ## Sort items by name. One of "none", "loot", or "full"
01:49:21 <shachaf> elliott: I was once going to implement random-rainbow for Hallu.
01:49:31 <elliott> monqy: Don't you love hallu?
01:49:38 <shachaf> monqy: Crawl doesn't have Hallu!
01:49:43 <shachaf> Therefore, NetHack > Crawl.
01:49:57 <monqy> idk hallu is cute but annoying
01:50:46 <monqy> haven't you played nethack before ?
01:50:54 <elliott> monqy: Not as a spellcaster.
01:50:57 <elliott> shachaf: Should I colour Pw?
01:50:59 <shachaf> The funny part is that it calls it "energy" elsewhere.
01:51:06 <shachaf> It's not as important as HP.
01:51:17 <shachaf> elliott: Force Bolt costs 5 Pw.
01:51:23 <elliott> shachaf: Well, in Crawl, MP is coloured and all.
01:51:30 <elliott> Because having low MP is bad. (If you're no good at melee.)
01:51:31 <shachaf> elliott: Also, read [[nethackwiki::wizard]]
01:51:34 <monqy> other things i did in nethack: I didn't rest up hp or pw because ugh resting, especially resting in nethack
01:51:35 <elliott> (Also if you're good at melee sometimes!)
01:51:43 <shachaf> It's probably good. I haven't read it but why wouldn't it be?
01:51:49 <elliott> shachaf: No. I'm relying on your advice.
01:52:06 <shachaf> elliott: Some people say wizards shouldn't do spellcasting until after the quest.
01:52:14 <monqy> other things i did in nethack: play healer and stone to flesh every boulder then choke to death
01:52:20 <shachaf> The wizard quest is the point where spellcasting becomes really good.
01:52:30 <elliott> shachaf: But the reason I want to do spellcasting is because melee earlygame is really boring.
01:52:43 <monqy> other things i did in nethack: feed half-eaten lichen corpse to pony, make friend
01:52:47 <elliott> Anyway, does leaving showborn off cause any irretrievable information loss?
01:52:53 <elliott> I really hate irretrievable information loss.
01:52:56 <elliott> (i.e. is the info tracked anywhere else)
01:53:08 <shachaf> elliott: I think showborn only affects post-death information?
01:53:11 <elliott> In Sokoban I had about six to seven kittens.
01:53:18 <elliott> Most people try and dispose of pets in Sokoban.
01:53:30 <elliott> shachaf: But is the information on what monsters you killed tracked elsewhere?
01:53:35 <shachaf> elliott: Anyway, wizards + throwing daggers = mix
01:53:47 <shachaf> And wizards + wielding Magicbane (= athame = dagger) = mix
01:53:55 <elliott> AUTOPICKUP_EXCEPTION="<*magic lamp*"
01:53:55 <elliott> AUTOPICKUP_EXCEPTION="<*wand of wishing*"
01:53:56 <elliott> AUTOPICKUP_EXCEPTION="<*wand of death*"
01:53:58 <elliott> AUTOPICKUP_EXCEPTION="<*wand of polymorph*"
01:54:00 <elliott> I guess I'll uncomment these.
01:54:03 <shachaf> elliott: The monsters you *killed*? Yes.
01:54:05 <elliott> (Actually I did before I pasted that. That's why they don't have #.)
01:54:23 <monqy> guess who forgot about polypiling
01:54:31 <monqy> guess who didn't know about polypiling when he played nethack
01:54:44 <monqy> guess who startscummed wizards for rings of polyself then died to system shock
01:54:51 <elliott> shachaf: (Is there any reason to autopickup those lamps/wands?)
01:54:57 <elliott> shachaf: (I mean, surely I'd know if I stepped on 'em.)
01:55:03 <shachaf> elliott: To save you the hassle?
01:55:19 <elliott> s/hassle/inconsistent behaviour considering nothing but gold (which is goldified) is picked up/
01:55:19 <shachaf> AUTOPICKUP_EXCEPTION="<*gray stone*"
01:55:37 <shachaf> elliott: Look, add whatever you want to your autopickup list!
01:55:40 <elliott> Anyway, OK, I think I'm ready.
01:55:45 <shachaf> (But don't add gray stone. That would be stupid.)
01:55:54 <elliott> monqy: curses interface: http://nethackwiki.com/mediawiki/images/9/96/Expanded-status.png
01:55:54 <monqy> is gold goldified in nethack?
01:56:11 <monqy> elliott: you sure that's not hugeterm?
01:56:36 <elliott> shachaf: Goldified means that the class of items in question is not present in the inventory and takes up no weight.
01:56:38 <monqy> karl is a bad person
01:56:56 <elliott> For instance, in Crawl, gold is goldified (it just adds to your gold count, nothing else), and so are runes (they just get added to the list of runes you've picked up).
01:57:10 <shachaf> elliott: Gold takes up weight.
01:57:11 <elliott> shachaf: Has it been half an hour yet?
01:57:25 <shachaf> elliott: Half an hour *after* we finish talking so I can do the thing I need to do.
01:57:40 <elliott> Now I'm not going to let you do the thing you need to do.
01:57:44 <elliott> You have to watch me instead.
01:58:29 <elliott> shachaf: Did you hear that?
01:59:15 <shachaf> elliott: I gotta, like, go home, man. :-(
01:59:23 <shachaf> I don't even know your username.
01:59:28 <elliott> shachaf: Where are you? I bet where you are is great.
01:59:30 <monqy> you should have thought of that before !!
01:59:32 <elliott> My username is ehird. I haven't started playing yet.
01:59:46 <shachaf> I'll go home in a moment and watch after that.
02:00:00 <shachaf> (UNLESS: I decide to do something else instead.)
02:00:05 <shachaf> (But I'll watch for a little bit.)
02:01:03 <elliott> monqy: You'll watch me, right?
02:01:23 <monqy> i've had nao open ever since you said you'd play
02:01:49 <elliott> http://alt.org/nethack/player-stats.php?player=ehird Wow, I was diverse.
02:02:04 <monqy> at one point i accidentally a button that opened rcfile editing and i closed that but for some reason it closed the connection then when i reconnected i made a squarelos account
02:02:11 <elliott> http://alt.org/nethack/player-all.php?player=ehird
02:02:17 <elliott> I have not played this year.
02:02:51 <elliott> Okay, maybe I have played today.
02:03:10 <elliott> Let me check by watching the ttyrec.
02:03:45 <monqy> i remember you playing nethack but that may have been nh4
02:04:32 <elliott> Warning - Boolean option specified multiple times: autopickup.
02:04:45 <elliott> I started the game anyway.
02:04:50 <elliott> You are lucky! Full moon tonight.
02:05:22 <monqy> what are you playing
02:05:46 <elliott> Let me check [[nethackwiki:Wizard]].
02:06:03 <elliott> OK, humans seem to suck, gnomes can't be chaotic, and orcs suck at spells.
02:06:29 <monqy> you could be lawful and wear opposite alignment
02:06:34 <monqy> good ideas (c) monqy
02:06:42 <elliott> I wonder which gender I should be!
02:06:54 <monqy> for optimal game play experience
02:07:06 <monqy> if you're female you can lay eggs; that's a boon
02:07:13 <monqy> can males do anything ?
02:07:16 <elliott> Any eggs found and carried by male characters have a 50/50 chance of hatching tame. Eggs found and carried by females will never hatch tame. (Eggs laid by you will always hatch tame, regardless of your current gender.)
02:07:30 <elliott> "In NetHack brass, female characters dressed as nurses can apply bandages faster than men."
02:07:56 <elliott> THANK YOU FOR MANGLING MY NAME, NETHACK
02:08:23 <monqy> nethack is controlled exlusively by numpad
02:08:34 -!- tswett has changed nick to TenRantStew.
02:08:46 <monqy> did you know: when i played nethack, for a while i exlusively used arrowkeys
02:08:50 <monqy> then i learned vikeys
02:09:21 <elliott> NetHack's interface is so weird, ugh.
02:09:45 <elliott> What's elvish eyesight like?
02:09:54 <monqy> lower case z is zap wand
02:10:44 <elliott> NetHack's secret corridor stuff.
02:10:58 <elliott> monqy: Now would be an excellent time to send me "hi".
02:11:25 <elliott> Patashu: I've played NetHack before!
02:12:02 <elliott> monqy: Did that mail daemon just... reveal terrain for me?
02:13:01 <elliott> monqy: OK you have to reduce your frequency of mail-sending because NetHack's UI for it is awful.
02:13:13 <elliott> Wait, where the heck is the shop?
02:13:22 <monqy> that may or may not be why i'm sending so much mail
02:13:38 <monqy> nethack's ui for mail is comically bad
02:13:47 <Patashu> you have to pick it up and read it, right
02:13:57 <elliott> Patashu: A mail daemon runs towards you.
02:14:01 <elliott> And a scroll of mail ends up in your inventory.
02:14:24 <elliott> There is a message on this scroll. The message is from 'someone'.--More--
02:14:34 <elliott> monqy: Where's the shop :(
02:14:38 -!- Lumpio- has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
02:14:38 <monqy> you forgot "as you read the scroll it disappears"
02:14:43 -!- TenRantStew has changed nick to tswett.
02:14:59 <monqy> try the black spots
02:15:20 <elliott> "A scroll of mail will "activate" an Elbereth square like any other object."
02:16:39 <monqy> when i played nethack i didn't have menucolors
02:16:49 <monqy> so i didn't notice when i was dying
02:16:54 <elliott> wow each book contains one spell?
02:17:11 <monqy> nethack books tend to do that,y es
02:17:19 <elliott> is there a convenient key like 5
02:17:25 <elliott> Patashu: are you watching me; you should watch me!
02:17:45 <elliott> monqy: how can I tell which corpses are ok to eat ;(
02:17:59 <monqy> they're bad for you
02:18:18 <Patashu> and yes, you have to memorize or look up 99% of things in nethack
02:18:21 <elliott> monqy: do you want to hear a joke
02:18:26 <elliott> the joke is: x is examine in crawl
02:18:28 <elliott> but "switch weapon" in nethack
02:18:40 <elliott> the joke is: it takes a turn and leaves you bare-handed if you have no alternate weapon
02:18:41 <Patashu> isn't it l or v or something
02:18:56 <Patashu> I would need to look up all of the keys
02:19:01 <elliott> monqy: should i wear the iron skull cap
02:19:09 <monqy> does patashue play net hack
02:19:23 <elliott> Patashu: where is the shop
02:20:09 <elliott> Patashu: WHERE IS THE SHOP
02:20:34 <monqy> try the black spots!!
02:21:02 <elliott> Do you want to hear another joke?
02:21:05 <elliott> NetHack's ally management system.
02:23:39 -!- PatashuXantheres has joined.
02:23:45 -!- Patashu has quit (Disconnected by services).
02:23:47 <elliott> monqy: was that one of your funny jokes
02:24:06 <monqy> elliott: you're not giving me much to work with!!
02:24:36 <elliott> pls don't make the jokes TOO funny because I am ｒｅａｌｌｙ ｂａｄ ａｔ ＮｅｔＨａｃｋ
02:24:45 <elliott> and thus will have no idea if you are serious or not
02:24:59 <monqy> that's part of the fun
02:25:42 <elliott> You faint from lack of food. You regain consciousness.
02:25:44 <elliott> You faint from lack of food. You regain consciousness.
02:25:47 <elliott> You feel tough! You must be leading a healthy life-style.
02:26:41 -!- TeruFSX has joined.
02:27:04 <elliott> i don't want to play nethack if
02:27:09 <elliott> other people are watching me be really terrible
02:27:13 <elliott> what if like 10 people were watching m
02:27:19 <elliott> what if #nethack ganged up to laugh at me
02:27:21 <monqy> that's part of the fun
02:27:24 <elliott> monqy: join #nethack to make sure they don't do that
02:27:32 <monqy> will you be in #nethack too
02:27:47 <monqy> theyre very well behaved
02:27:57 <elliott> monqy: i don;t believe youre in #nethack
02:28:04 <monqy> why don't you join and see for yourself
02:28:13 <elliott> did you know that i can check
02:28:25 <monqy> ddid you ask someone :(
02:28:28 <elliott> http://alt.org/nethack/irc.php hMMMMMMM i see no monqy joins lines
02:28:58 <monqy> im not going in there!!!
02:29:28 <elliott> monqy: remember how ghosts are spaces in nethack
02:29:41 <monqy> shachaf: you missed elliott's first game
02:29:45 <monqy> shachaf: it was a "blast"
02:30:03 <shachaf> monqy: did elliott "explode" in the "blast"?????
02:30:14 <monqy> exploded into a pile of fainted ehird
02:30:25 <monqy> someone mysterious called him a murderer and he fainted after reading it
02:30:47 <elliott> (they called me a murderer because i kicked my pet so that i could eat it)
02:31:03 <elliott> http://alt.org/nethack/player-stats.php?player=Fuglia
02:31:05 <elliott> they have only played one game
02:31:08 <elliott> PatashuXantheres: was it you
02:31:36 <shachaf> elliott: Waht are you playing<<>
02:31:37 <elliott> monqy: do you want to hear a joke
02:31:39 <elliott> pets stop travel in nethack
02:31:41 <shachaf> let me see your "ivnentory"
02:32:04 <elliott> how long should i wait to find more corridor/secret doors/etc. before giving up
02:32:46 <elliott> why can elves only start chaotic
02:32:50 <shachaf> elliott: You know iron is bad for casters, right?
02:33:23 <elliott> shachaf: In Crawl only body armour affects that. :(
02:34:23 <shachaf> elliott: I thought you were going to cast spells!
02:34:53 <elliott> shachaf: Is there really no convenient key for resting to recover HP?
02:35:14 <shachaf> All sorts of numeric prefixes to .!
02:35:36 <elliott> Where is the other room :'(
02:35:38 <shachaf> monqy: Are you coming to visit?
02:36:01 <monqy> shachaf: was that visit
02:36:12 <shachaf> monqy: No, I mean visit me!
02:36:13 <elliott> shachaf: Should I try digging for victory?
02:36:24 <monqy> shachaf: how does thaat work
02:36:25 <shachaf> elliott: It's boring in the other dimension.
02:36:53 <shachaf> elliott: If you win it's interesting, but you're going to lost right away all the time instead.
02:37:07 <elliott> shachaf: Sounds like diving in NetHack.
02:37:11 <elliott> shachaf: Sounds like diving in Crawl.
02:37:16 <elliott> Except diving is exciting even if you lose.
02:37:17 <shachaf> "hi, my name is eliot, and i'm gonianng to lsots."
02:37:23 <elliott> Is diving exciting even if you lose in NetHack?
02:37:29 <monqy> sounds like diving in crawl if you're bad at diving in crawl
02:37:45 <elliott> shachaf: Is there a good way to wait for my pet? :(
02:37:51 <shachaf> elliott: Anyway, if you get both a pick axe and a musical isntrument, you can try to DfV.
02:38:02 <monqy> elliott: apply whistle of come here please
02:38:29 <shachaf> (This computer program brought to you by: COBOL.)
02:38:34 <monqy> find a mirror and say "squarelos" three times
02:38:35 <elliott> A lot of people just abandon their pets, I think.
02:38:56 <elliott> Yes, but I love squarelos.
02:39:10 <elliott> shachaf: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/learndb.html#squarelos, http://crawl.akrasiac.org/learndb.html#monqy
02:39:49 <elliott> shachaf: How do I get in that doorway now that I've shoved a rock in front of it?
02:39:57 <monqy> elliott: zap force bolt at the rock
02:40:28 <monqy> it's one of my ol "make rocks stop being in my way" techs
02:40:35 <monqy> the other is to stone to flesh then eat it
02:41:38 <shachaf> zap wnad of stkiring at it
02:41:54 <shachaf> Take off all your clothes and crawl under it
02:42:02 <monqy> kick it until it shatters under the might of your chops
02:42:11 <shachaf> Polymorph into a giant and pick it up.
02:42:18 <shachaf> Or! Become a xorn and walk through it.
02:42:19 <monqy> polymorph into a xorn and eat it
02:42:27 <elliott> coppro: I also complained to ais523 that the dungeon generation algorithm was awful!
02:42:41 <monqy> shachaf: did you hear my ring tech
02:42:52 <monqy> stone to flesh the ring, then eat it
02:42:53 <shachaf> monqy: Zap stone to flesh on a stone ring, eat it?
02:43:03 <elliott> monqy: Is that your everything tech?
02:43:07 <coppro> elliott: that's not new to nh4...
02:43:13 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
02:43:14 <shachaf> Zap stone to flesh on a stone golem
02:43:25 <monqy> flesh golem, surely?
02:43:34 <monqy> zap cocatrice on flesh golem
02:44:01 -!- olsner has joined.
02:44:15 <elliott> You have a sad feeling for a moment, then it passes.
02:44:15 <monqy> shachaf: did you hear my other ring tech?
02:44:25 <shachaf> elliott: But at least you didn't kill it.
02:44:27 <monqy> shachaf: zap stone to flesh on stone ring, then wear it on your finger
02:44:30 * elliott changes in-game name to kmc
02:44:34 <shachaf> elliott: Pray if you haven't prayed recentl.
02:44:59 <shachaf> You shouldn't have prayed if you had food.
02:45:02 <elliott> i wonder what i actually killed
02:45:24 <monqy> collect rocks and polypile into food
02:45:31 <monqy> also you should play healer so you can stone to flesh
02:45:59 <monqy> you can also heal squarelos by playing a healere
02:46:16 <monqy> elliott: maybe you should force bolt more before you start to die
02:46:17 <shachaf> elliott: Um, close the door and rest?
02:46:27 <monqy> elliott: also note: you can eat corpses before you get hungry
02:46:45 -!- PatashuXantheres has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
02:46:54 <monqy> but then the corpses will go bad and you'll get foodpois
02:46:56 <shachaf> Did you just Create Monster?
02:46:59 -!- Patashu has joined.
02:47:02 <monqy> this is what happens if you don't eat the corpses
02:47:07 <elliott> You feel that eating the little dog was a bad idea.
02:47:16 <shachaf> elliott: Don't eat little dogs. :-"(
02:47:18 <monqy> see this is why you stone to flesh on rocks
02:47:21 <monqy> you can feed them to dogs
02:47:27 <monqy> feed the rocks to the dogs
02:47:29 <monqy> feed the dogs rocks
02:47:33 -!- Lumpio- has joined.
02:48:05 <elliott> i want a serious answer!!!
02:48:09 <elliott> i do not want to play if i only get
02:48:12 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: jokes': not found
02:48:47 <elliott> monqy: (seriously what happened)
02:48:54 <shachaf> elliott: You now have the "aggravate monster" intrinsic.
02:49:09 <monqy> elliott: eating dogs is bad for your alignment or something
02:49:11 <elliott> I should just check the wiki.
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02:49:27 <shachaf> http://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Aggravate_monster
02:49:37 <elliott> Yes, but you leave no cues whatsoever as to whether your answers are serious or not, making asking you pointless.
02:50:10 <elliott> OK, this intrinsic looks annoying.
02:50:14 <elliott> So I guess I'll have a stupid death now.
02:50:28 <elliott> I don't even have a digging tool.
02:51:09 <elliott> This time I won't eat a dog or a cat.
02:51:49 <elliott> shachaf: Why does NetHack feel so klunky?
02:54:39 <elliott> shachaf: Read-iding scrolls is dumb, right?
02:55:28 <elliott> As is meleeing acid blobs.
02:57:29 <elliott> monqy: are you enjoying my nethack adventure
02:58:56 -!- Patashu has quit (Disconnected by services).
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02:59:22 <elliott> why are shachaf and monqy ignoring me :(
03:00:20 <monqy> you mean the gnms and duarf?
03:00:32 <monqy> try a "force bolt"
03:00:52 <elliott> i just meant the weird level layout but yeah that too
03:01:35 <elliott> is it ok to wear hooded cloak & do i want to
03:02:02 <monqy> i think so / i think so
03:02:23 <monqy> ask someone who knows nethack!!!
03:02:46 <monqy> i only know enough nethack to make funny jokes and give mediocre earlygame advice
03:03:07 <monqy> see i didn't even know those things
03:03:08 <elliott> i'm already wearing a cloak
03:03:34 <monqy> other things that i know about nethacjk: negative ac is good ac
03:03:40 <monqy> what did squarelos do
03:03:54 <monqy> see this is why you should be a healer
03:04:29 <elliott> this is a better level layout than most levels
03:04:49 <elliott> is this the mines or something!!!!
03:04:56 <elliott> why so many Gnomes and hwarfs
03:05:15 <monqy> i didnt see you enter the level, but i do know the mines have that laoutt, and Gnomes, and huarfs
03:05:41 <monqy> eat corps (jokes' it'll foood poison you)
03:05:47 <monqy> oh it's gone anyway
03:06:17 <monqy> ps im gone again i'll be back soon
03:13:18 <elliott> Can't find dungeon feature '>'.
03:13:40 <elliott> there were downstairs before
03:13:56 <monqy> did they get covert up
03:14:46 <elliott> next time i won't enter the mines immediately
03:14:48 <elliott> monqy: are you ready for me to
03:14:52 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: play: not found
03:14:57 <elliott> this is a nethack first for me
03:16:29 <elliott> monqy: imagine playing nethack without colours or travel
03:18:29 <monqy> imagine playing nethack
03:18:43 <elliott> monqy: nethack isn't too bad c'mon!!!
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03:20:21 <elliott> monqy: look at berry's game
03:21:15 <elliott> WHERE ARE THE DOWNSTAIRS ????
03:21:22 <elliott> there were here a moment ago
03:22:18 <elliott> monqy: wow berry's more message is in
03:23:29 <elliott> i didn't realise it was mines though
03:23:39 <elliott> but i didn't realise i;d entered mines
03:23:40 <shachaf> elliott: read-iding scorolls is dumb "(
03:23:47 <elliott> how do you id scrolls then!
03:23:53 <shachaf> elliott: You id scrolls with
03:24:00 <elliott> how do you id id scrolls!!!!
03:24:12 <shachaf> (No, you do it with a shop.)
03:24:22 <shachaf> ID is the most common type of scroll.
03:26:30 <elliott> Do not wear unidentified magic boots without curse-testing them first.
03:27:28 <elliott> how do i tell whether staircase goes to mines
03:28:02 <elliott> Knights can identify all weapons and non-magical armor from the beginning. They also have a special intrinsic ability to #jump like the knight piece in chess.
03:28:02 <monqy> oh no is berry ooze farming
03:28:14 <elliott> monqy: this is like ??implemented bad ideas
03:28:19 <elliott> (the second sentence, I mean)
03:28:37 <elliott> monqy: i watched Wooble do what appeared to be pudding farming on the planes once
03:28:51 <shachaf> elliott: Do curse-testing on altars.
03:29:00 <elliott> staircase question is more important
03:29:13 <elliott> 04:27 <elliott> how do i tell whether staircase goes to mines
03:29:28 <shachaf> The one that has the mines on the other end
03:29:45 <elliott> is it good to do some more dlvls before mines i don't know what the
03:29:56 <elliott> i only ever did mines as a gnome
03:29:59 <shachaf> elliott: It's a good idea to always go down-and-right-back-up when you see a staircase, so that you know where it is on the level.
03:30:04 <shachaf> In case you need to find it from
03:30:20 <shachaf> elliott: Mines-first or Sokoban-first are both accepted wisdom.
03:30:20 <elliott> that is crawl wisdom too but it's boring so i don't do it
03:30:42 <elliott> shachaf: I mean, assuming I do Mines first, do I go into Mines as soon as I find the entrance?
03:30:47 <shachaf> elliott: However, accepted wisdom is not to go past minetown.
03:30:48 <elliott> Or should I level up a bit in the dungeon first?
03:30:52 <shachaf> There are nasty things down there.
03:31:07 <shachaf> Mines are OK for leveling pre-post-minetown.
03:31:33 <elliott> A blessed potion of see invisible shatters!--More--
03:31:41 <elliott> force_bolt_on_monkey_unreasons
03:31:50 <elliott> shachaf: how do i avoid being hungry all the time
03:31:54 <elliott> dont answer eating ill kill you
03:32:27 <elliott> (is reading unid'd spellbooks ok)
03:33:08 <monqy> it might teleport and paralyze you
03:33:36 <elliott> monqy: query of seriousness level!!!
03:33:55 <monqy> sometimes if i had no other escape options i'd use a spellbook
03:34:08 <monqy> i didn';t know about elbereth
03:34:12 <monqy> spellbook is cooler anyway
03:34:13 <Sgeo> elliott, I _think_ it's safe if you're a wizard, it will warn you if it's too difficult
03:34:32 <elliott> http://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Boots does "2 AC" mean "-2 AC"
03:36:08 <elliott> You are laden with moisture and can barely breathe!
03:36:26 <elliott> Despite messages like "You are laden with moisture and can barely breathe", they are not very dangerous because of their low speed.
03:36:44 <pikhq> elliott: AD&D-style AC is ludicrously confusing like that, and unfortunately Nethack was inspired by AD&D mechanics.
03:37:00 <elliott> pikhq: you should watch me!!
03:37:43 <elliott> (special one-time only offer: if you start watching, you can decide whether I do Mines right now or more Dungeon first!)
03:41:43 <elliott> "The DevTeam does not consider the lack of any warnings about hitting a floating eye to be a bug.[1] The encyclopedia entry does warn even unspoiled players of the danger."
03:42:13 <coppro> that's one nice thing about ace
03:42:22 <coppro> well, not blue es anyway
03:42:25 <coppro> grays are still dangerous
03:43:07 <coppro> they just cause you to miss them
03:43:31 <coppro> rather than basically kill you
03:43:34 <elliott> coppro: You should also watch me!!!
03:44:21 <coppro> elliott: better things to do, sorry :(
03:44:23 <elliott> what should i call an orange potion
03:44:36 <elliott> coppro: that hurts me in the part of me that hurts :'(
03:45:08 <coppro> elliott: it's called the pituitary gland
03:45:22 <elliott> that hurts me in the pituitary gland
03:53:16 <elliott> appending _reasons to things
03:53:29 <elliott> You are carrying too much to get through.
03:53:33 <elliott> elves have that a lot right
03:54:39 <elliott> well there's no carry warning on my screen
03:54:42 <elliott> should i drop stuff or something
03:55:17 <elliott> You step onto a level teleport trap! You feel a wrenching sensation.
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03:56:41 <MDude> (2^(x+2))^2=(2^4)*4^x
03:57:41 <elliott> wow, I think I fell to minetown
03:58:27 <elliott> hey, it's no less contextless than what you said :)
03:59:36 <coppro> I'm going to resume my game
03:59:40 <coppro> I killed vlad last time
03:59:43 <coppro> my vladbane was awesome
04:00:01 <coppro> make sure to use a kickass vladbane k?
04:00:27 <MDude> I got the book Number Freak a while ago, and a thing it mentions is that 16 objects can be arranged into a 4*4 solid square or a 5*5 hollow one.
04:00:46 <MDude> And that this is because 2^4=4^2.
04:02:01 <MDude> It said that this was unique, and for the form a^b=b^a;a!=b, and it is, but I wanted to find a way to generalise it, so I did.
04:02:05 <itidus20> is it often the case that a^b = b^a ?
04:02:39 <itidus20> dang... if i was a better mathematician i may have realized to note a!=b
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04:03:12 <elliott> monqy: did you miss my interestingness
04:03:23 <MDude> I forget to remember that part sometimes.
04:04:02 <itidus20> in my head, it is implied by the use of a and b that a!=b
04:04:54 <itidus20> since it would be more optimal to say a^a=a^a rather than a^b=b^a;a=b
04:05:14 <elliott> itidus20: except that that would exclude all the as and bs that aren't equal!!!
04:06:15 <elliott> You see here a small mimic corpse (5 zorkmids).
04:06:19 <itidus20> that is the difference between a mathematician i suppose
04:06:21 <elliott> you want to charge me for the corpse of the mimic I just killed?
04:06:27 <elliott> fuck you, Pemboeang. fuck you.
04:08:11 <elliott> I angered izchak by destroying his door in the process of killing a gnome wizard
04:08:32 <elliott> oh at least he killed the mimic though
04:11:34 <itidus20> MDude: so yeah, is it often the case that a^b=b^a;a!=b ?
04:11:48 <itidus20> or is it just in the case of {2,4}
04:13:33 <itidus20> i wonder what fallacies i commited by saying "or is it just in the case of {2,4}"
04:17:36 <MDude> The I tihnk it's that 2^2 = 4.
04:17:49 <itidus20> a^b=b^a;a!=b iff a ∈ {2,4}; b ∈ {2,4}
04:17:59 <MDude> So in either case it's 2^2^2.
04:18:55 <itidus20> well you can't really trust unicode to show up
04:18:57 <MDude> With other values I tihnk there's a solution, jsut not an integer one.
04:19:51 <MDude> Er, or something like that.
04:19:55 <itidus20> well yeah 16 = 4^4 = 5 * 2 + 3 * 2
04:19:59 <elliott> monqy: i angered izchak by blasting his door in the process of killing a gnome wizard
04:20:07 <elliott> he killed the small mimic for me but now he's killing me :(
04:20:13 <elliott> also i don't want to kill izchak (not that i could) because "karma"
04:20:34 <elliott> "In all other cases, you can pay him 1000zm for a 2/3 chance of pacifying him."
04:21:03 <monqy> shouldnt v killed that nome
04:21:43 <elliott> should have killed it with melee you mean
04:22:19 <elliott> despite not being in izchak's shop
04:22:46 <itidus20> MDude: ah so its the only one with an integer solution?
04:23:23 <elliott> monqy: time to try again!!!
04:24:02 <monqy> i used to enjoy nethack
04:24:21 * itidus20 sends MDude a tetris variant with only one tetronimo.. the [][][][]
04:24:34 <elliott> monqy: maybe you can enjoy it again!!!
04:24:35 <monqy> then the interface got to me, then i learned about all the horrible things in it
04:25:08 <elliott> "Marduk, the creator, is mentioned in the introduction text. He created at least the Mazes of Menace, and probably the entire universe. Aside from that, however, he plays no part in the game."
04:25:15 <elliott> monqy: the thing with nethack is: "not taking it seriously"
04:25:28 <elliott> i mean there has to be SOME game that's horrible
04:25:34 <monqy> it's like 4.1 without 5
04:25:50 <elliott> monqy: you could macro up a 5!!!
04:25:55 <elliott> 4.1 is way more punishing wow
04:26:10 <itidus20> you can create 4*4 solid squares or a 5*5 hollow ones with that tetronimo using tetris rules!
04:26:53 <monqy> is it possible to play nethack quickly
04:27:02 <monqy> this is an important question
04:27:49 <coppro> "So thou though thou couldst kill me, fool?"
04:27:50 <elliott> monqy: probably but you playing quickly always happens when you're not having fun
04:27:54 <MDude> itidus20: Yes, or the only one where the solution, a, and b are all integers anyway.
04:28:02 <monqy> elbereths true nature revealt
04:28:04 <coppro> Choose which spell to cast: finger of death
04:28:08 <coppro> You kill the Wizard of Yendor!
04:28:19 <monqy> elliott: it happens when im having fun too
04:28:46 <monqy> just not all the time
04:28:52 <monqy> whereas when im not having fun i tend to play fast
04:29:10 <monqy> anyway fine i;'ll play some nethack whatever
04:29:16 <elliott> monqy: i didn't mean now!!
04:29:21 <elliott> now is hte time to watch me play nethack "a sacred time"
04:29:40 <elliott> you can even send me lots of mail!!!
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04:42:29 <itidus20> when I read "<coppro> You kill the Wizard of Yendor!" it all clicked
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04:50:12 <elliott> monqy: it does not seem like you can convert a lawful to chaotic altar?
04:50:29 <monqy> thgat is cross-aligned???
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04:51:44 <elliott> hopeful feeling sounds good!!!
04:51:56 <monqy> you dont pray for it
04:52:02 <monqy> iirc you get it from an offering
04:52:04 <elliott> If you can pray, have positive alignment and your god is not angry you generally have a chance of getting an artifact. Your level must be greater than 2, and your luck must be nonnegative. If those conditions are met, the chances of your getting an artifact are 1/(10 + 2 × Number of existing artifacts × Number of gifts granted by your god):
04:52:15 <elliott> monqy: does my artefact likelihood decrease over time
04:52:49 -!- djx has joined.
04:53:22 <elliott> not carrying around corpses reasons
04:53:26 <HackEgo> djx: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
04:53:31 <elliott> monqy: let's try that again
04:54:26 <elliott> monqy: do you want to hear a joek
04:55:06 <elliott> actually forgot in the process of asking that
04:55:35 <elliott> i generally find it a surprising event when i am like you in some way
04:55:53 <itidus20> i will try and provide a good analogy just to make sure
04:57:35 -!- djx has left.
04:58:08 <itidus20> if an announcer was going to present the next performer to the stage, and he had the name in his head, but then he focused on saying "folks.. this is what you've all been waiting for.. the great, the wonderful, the magnificient.." and then forgetting the name
04:59:37 <itidus20> maybe a better analogy would be.. "what i'm about to tell you is really cool but i have to warn you that it could be distressing.. oh and also i cannot take all the credit for it, but the idea just occured to me.. so as i was saying" ... "i forget"
04:59:56 <elliott> i forgive you because you are a cat
05:01:10 <monqy> also when i played nethack: i didnt knowa bout #pray
05:01:17 <itidus20> elliott: it's probably more like how all humans inherently have a lot in common
05:01:20 <elliott> monqy: you were playing: hard mode
05:02:49 <itidus20> forgetting something due to waiting too long to say it is probably just a human thing
05:03:12 <itidus20> but habitually delaying saying things for too long is something else
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05:04:32 <elliott> monqy: im going to do mines soon
05:04:41 <itidus20> my joke was: he puts the "oh man" in romance
05:05:42 <Sgeo> I want to join one team because of the backstory, but a different team has a better logo!
05:05:56 <monqy> Sgeo: what sort of team
05:06:00 <monqy> Sgeo: what sort of backstory
05:06:01 <monqy> Sgeo: what sort of logo
05:06:03 <Sgeo> monqy, factions in Planetside
05:06:44 <Sgeo> "VANU SOVEREIGNTY A technocratic faction that believes humanity can only evolve by rediscovering and tapping the lost technology of the Vanu."
05:06:52 <Sgeo> ^^like the backstory
05:07:21 <Sgeo> But the logos: http://www-cdn.planetside2.com/images/gameinfo/empire_Sprite.png?v=131.4
05:07:39 <monqy> Sgeo: which of those do you like
05:07:42 <Sgeo> From top to bottom, Terran Republic, New Conglomerate, Vanu Sovereignty
05:07:46 <Sgeo> I like the NC logo
05:07:47 <elliott> For some reason, the invisible leprechaun's presence is known to you.--More--
05:07:47 <itidus20> Sgeo: i suggest you first roll for initiative before rolling to determine which team
05:08:13 <itidus20> i haven't really played d&d though so just making this up >.<
05:08:18 <Sgeo> Although the NC uniforms suck, VS logo rules
05:08:23 <itidus20> so roll on whether you should roll
05:08:23 <Sgeo> erm, VS uniform rules
05:08:31 <Sgeo> The VS logo sucks and the NC logo rules
05:08:46 <monqy> elliott: what did doyu DO
05:09:05 <itidus20> Sgeo: ok look at the metadecision.. what sort of players will go with VS, and what sort of players will go with NC
05:09:22 <elliott> monqy: do you want me to play again
05:09:32 <Sgeo> NC wallpaper http://www-cdn.planetside2.com/images/media/wallpapers/2_iphone.jpg?v=131.4 VS wallpaper http://www-cdn.planetside2.com/images/media/wallpapers/3_iphone.jpg?v=131.4
05:09:42 <Sgeo> You can see who has the better uniforms
05:10:15 <Sgeo> Not what I was thinking
05:10:16 <itidus20> would the NC people be shallow to choose a team with a poor backstory? or would they simply be going with their natural instinct to like the logo?
05:10:35 <Sgeo> itidus20, they're "Freedom" people
05:10:47 <monqy> i think itidus20 has it right
05:10:49 <elliott> monqy: guess who'e play again
05:10:51 <itidus20> or would the VS people be elite snobs for choosing a team with a good backstory? or are they just good people
05:11:08 <monqy> elliott: play healer, heal squarelos, heal rocks, eat rocks
05:11:09 <elliott> monqy: whistle RIGHT BELOW MY STARTING SQUARE
05:11:10 <Sgeo> itidus20, http://www.planetside2.com/overview
05:11:10 <shachaf> elliott: As a wizard unidentified spellbooks is safe unless they're cursed.
05:11:15 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: i: not found
05:11:19 <Sgeo> Scroll down to where you see the logos
05:11:23 <elliott> (Does Hebrew not distinguish is/are?)
05:11:24 <Sgeo> Very very brief summaries of the empires
05:11:28 <shachaf> elliott: "reading" was implied as part of your question.
05:11:41 <elliott> Your sentence was ungrammertical. :(
05:11:51 <shachaf> No, it just left some parts implied.
05:11:56 <shachaf> In the context of your question it made sense.
05:12:00 <shachaf> It's just that your question was hours ago.
05:12:11 <shachaf> elliott: Hebrew does distinguish. Moreover it distinguishes male "is"/"are" from female "is"/"are".
05:12:11 <monqy> Be one of the elite players to beta test this highly-anticipated shooter! We need your participation and feedback to make this a truly epic, genre-defining game!
05:12:24 <monqy> Sgeo: are you elite
05:12:26 <shachaf> Actually, come to think of it, it doesn't have a word for "is" or "are".
05:12:57 <Sgeo> My computer won't be able to handle it, I need a new computer.
05:13:24 <Sgeo> BTW, nicknames for people of each faction:
05:13:30 <Sgeo> elmos, smurfs, barnys
05:13:44 <Sgeo> Barneys I think
05:14:37 <monqy> barnys elitest faktion
05:17:49 <elliott> monqy: do you know what upsets me
05:18:47 <elliott> monqy: pets move a bunch after you go >
05:18:49 <quintopia> !bfjoust poke http://sprunge.us/dRSQ
05:18:53 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_poke: 46.8
05:19:20 <elliott> You see here a scroll labeled YUM YUM.
05:19:34 <elliott> monqy: remember when you said "yum yum" to me
05:21:11 <elliott> shachaf: is eating permafood meant to be common in nethack
05:21:29 <elliott> i was going to sacrifice that
05:21:32 <shachaf> elliott: You can often get by with corpses; sometimes not.
05:21:39 <elliott> shachaf: btw can i have details on sacrificing to get magicbane
05:21:45 <elliott> how many corpses am i going to have to sacrifice approx.
05:21:50 <elliott> and does the magicbanelikelihood decrease over time
05:21:54 <elliott> or can i sacrifice corpses at my leisure
05:22:07 <shachaf> elliott: By early-to-mid-game you should have more permafood than you need.
05:22:14 <shachaf> elliott: Sokoban is full of it. Another reason to do sokoban first.
05:22:29 <elliott> shachaf: But Sokoban makes me intolerably bored,
05:22:29 <shachaf> elliott: Magicbane is a guaranteed first sacrifice gift to wizards.
05:22:57 <shachaf> Whether it's early or not doesn't matter, but sacrificing increases your luck, and high luck makes it more likely to get something.
05:23:08 <shachaf> So if you do a bunch of sacrifices together it's more likely to yield something? Maybe.
05:23:21 <shachaf> Mostly it's just chance. I've gotten it as the first sacrifice gift sometimes.
05:24:28 <shachaf> Killing monsters increases your alignment which might also have something to do with it? But presumably you're doing that anyway.
05:24:29 <elliott> (But, roughly how many corpses can I expect to sac?)
05:24:58 <shachaf> Don't break mirrors or anything like that.
05:26:24 <elliott> can you id anything in a shop
05:26:27 <elliott> even if it's a potion shope
05:29:29 <elliott> do you want to see something terrible, monqy
05:29:32 <shachaf> elliott: You mean by price?
05:29:40 <elliott> shachaf: Right. (Is price-iding dumb?)
05:29:41 <shachaf> You can only sell things that belong in that shop in that shop.
05:29:46 <shachaf> And price-iding isn't always reliable.
05:29:57 <shachaf> I'm usually too lazy to do it except for things like lamps.
05:30:06 <elliott> monqy: "/r/haskell's current logo" http://a.thumbs.redditmedia.com/nb6gZnmUj6jhotix.png
05:30:49 <elliott> shachaf: So if I'm in a potion shop and everything is just "potion", I should ignore it for now, right? :p
05:30:53 <elliott> (Note to self: It's on D:3.)
05:33:54 <elliott> shachaf: how do i use whistle
05:34:22 <elliott> shachaf: why isn't apply and zap the same
05:34:41 <shachaf> elliott: (a)pplying a wand is for breaking it.
05:35:10 <elliott> coppro: apparently people complained when acehack unified armour/jewellery putting-on-and-taking-off
05:35:38 <shachaf> elliott: (A) both takes off and removes
05:37:26 <elliott> shachaf: "scroll of identify"
05:37:59 <quintopia> !bfjoust poke http://sprunge.us/hfcc
05:38:02 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_poke: 48.3
05:41:58 <elliott> monqy: guess waht time it is
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05:45:38 <elliott> monqy: hehehehehe i thought squarelos was
05:45:40 <elliott> a fungus with items under it
05:51:25 <elliott> shachaf: So should I be killing things and dragging them all the way to an altar?
05:51:33 <elliott> Or just saccing what I happen to kill on the level with the altar?
05:51:52 <shachaf> elliott: Depends on what you want to do.
05:52:22 <shachaf> Dragging things is ineffective because you only have N turns from the time they die to the time you can sacrifice them.
05:52:41 <shachaf> So you can -- I don't know, do something.
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05:52:54 <shachaf> Maybe read your cursed scroll of create monster near the altar!
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05:55:15 <elliott> shachaf: Rephrase: What's the usual thing to do?
05:59:50 <elliott> shachaf: A looking glass shatters into a thousand pieces!--More--
05:59:54 <elliott> Remember what you said about not breaking mirrors?
06:00:23 <shachaf> elliott: I guess "don't cast force bolt at water nymphs" would have been more useful advice?
06:00:34 <elliott> shachaf: Do I have teleportitis. :(
06:00:41 <shachaf> elliott: Did you feel jumpy?
06:00:54 <elliott> How can I stop having teleportitis?
06:01:05 <shachaf> Better to get teleportcontrolitis.
06:01:14 <shachaf> If you have a ring or something for that.
06:01:27 <shachaf> At XL 17 you get it intrinsically.
06:01:40 <elliott> shachaf: Yes, but I don't want to be bothered by HEY TELEPORT WHERE every N turns.
06:01:45 <shachaf> "it's good to be a wzimard"
06:01:46 <elliott> (I realise it's "optimal" in some sense.)
06:02:01 <shachaf> elliott: Have you experienced controlledteleportitis in NetHack?
06:02:07 <shachaf> It's actually not that bad.
06:02:15 <elliott> Do you have to decide where to teleport every ~80 turns?
06:02:25 <shachaf> But I remember it's not that bad.
06:02:33 <shachaf> I don't know about the number 80, that is.
06:02:39 <elliott> "Every game turn, there is a 1/85 chance you will try to teleport. This does not cost nutrition or energy. [1]"
06:02:55 <shachaf> Normally you're "going somewhere" anyway, so teleportitis only helps!
06:03:06 <shachaf> It's very hard to lose intrinsics in NetHack.
06:03:12 <shachaf> Shouldn't have eaten that nymph!
06:04:10 <elliott> It hasn't been enough turns for that.
06:04:12 <elliott> NetHack needs more chokepoints.
06:04:20 <shachaf> elliott: You can ^T, maybe?
06:04:33 <elliott> shachaf: Thank you, pressing ^T just killed me.
06:04:43 <shachaf> I told you I was going to look, right?
06:04:53 <shachaf> You didn't tell me you were Pw:15!
06:05:07 <elliott> It's so much like cheating that I forget it's possible.
06:05:12 <shachaf> I forgot about Elbereth(TM).
06:05:25 <shachaf> Before your first ascension you're allowed Elbereth, like, for free, man.
06:05:31 <elliott> "The only cure is to have it stolen by a gremlin, at night."
06:06:13 <shachaf> I don't have INterhacka set up here. :-(
06:07:07 <elliott> Unfortunately that single rectangle is the entire dungeon.
06:07:15 <elliott> I think this means you win.
06:07:59 <shachaf> I have automatic searching.
06:08:04 <shachaf> "'ti's''s good to be a ranger"
06:08:46 <elliott> Player shachaf does not have any scores in the top 2000.
06:08:53 <shachaf> elliott: "why is my font so bad " :(
06:09:06 <shachaf> elliott: I haven't played games since the Great High Score Reset of 2012-or-so.
06:09:06 <elliott> it's probably not as bad as mine
06:09:21 <shachaf> elliott: My font is fine except the 0 looks like a O. :-(
06:09:36 <elliott> monqy: did you receive my mail btw
06:09:50 <shachaf> Ooh, can I send monqy mail?
06:09:59 <elliott> shachaf: my font: http://ompldr.org/vZTNpNw
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06:11:02 <elliott> It's unhinted and rendered badly.
06:12:09 <elliott> monqy: are you enjoying shachaf's game i know i am
06:12:39 <elliott> this is shachaf's first game since 2011-01 aparently!
06:12:57 <shachaf> Don't emlook at my shitory!!
06:13:17 <elliott> (I presume the space is part of the word.)
06:13:18 <shachaf> elliott: The lag is too great to play NetHack. :-((
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06:13:30 <elliott> shachaf: That just means you get to think more every turn.
06:13:37 <elliott> I learned that from shachaf.
06:13:47 <shachaf> Don't listen to anything shachaf tells youa bout NetHack.
06:14:08 <shachaf> Also, the round-trip latency is about 3 seconds now.
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06:14:15 <elliott> What continent are you even in?
06:14:50 <Sgeo> WHY would anyone think that "publically traded" == "anyone can see your information"
06:14:53 <shachaf> (The problem is on my side.)
06:15:04 <Sgeo> http://www.thatsnonsense.com/view.php?id=1563
06:15:16 <Sgeo> Just saw two FB friends post the piece of silliness
06:15:18 <shachaf> OK, this latency is too great to play.
06:15:38 <elliott> shachaf: You planned this from the start!
06:15:54 <shachaf> elliott: Nope! It's a tragtedy.
06:16:45 <elliott> shachaf: I'll farm some puddings for you.
06:17:10 <elliott> I would be unhappy and not farm puddings if you played more.
06:17:21 <pikhq> Gimmick! is a fucking awesome game. It is also psychotically hard.
06:17:51 <pikhq> And does things I thought impossible on the NES.
06:18:24 <elliott> shachaf: Did you know I once watched Wooble farm puddings on the planes?
06:18:32 <elliott> To sacrifice. Or something.
06:19:54 <coppro> elliott: what should I wish for?
06:20:12 <coppro> I'm standing on the altar on Astral
06:20:16 <coppro> I just want something cool
06:20:21 <coppro> I have a wish and probably another one too
06:20:39 <coppro> and my replay is busted
06:20:57 <elliott> include "stupid joke wish"
06:21:16 <elliott> coppro: blessed greased fixed slime mold
06:21:17 <quintopia> !bfjoust poke http://sprunge.us/GBCZ
06:21:20 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_poke: 48.4
06:21:27 <coppro> hmm... seems too pedestrian
06:21:29 <elliott> coppro: (are you going to be the first NH4 ascension?)
06:22:07 <elliott> coppro: 57.4 blessed greased fixed +9 slime molds of love called hungerbane
06:22:31 <monqy> maybe i;l play neth ack now
06:23:08 <elliott> go to http://alt.org/nethack/webconf/nhrc_edit.php
06:23:40 <elliott> it turns on gold autopickup, names yr cat squarelos
06:23:45 <elliott> (you can name your cat anything you want instead)
06:24:05 <elliott> puts --more--s on bad things
06:24:25 <elliott> oh and requires "yes" instead of "y" for some scary things
06:24:26 <monqy> what should i play !
06:24:33 <elliott> shachaf: what should monqy play
06:24:34 <coppro> I know what I will wish for
06:24:40 <elliott> shachaf: you know MuCK in crawl
06:24:40 <coppro> when it becomes safe to connect to my game again
06:24:45 <elliott> what's the equivalent of MuCK in NetHack
06:25:13 <elliott> monqy: "n e way" if you want ~easy melee~ you can play valkyrie dwarf
06:25:18 <elliott> (`the mdfi of nethack' - me, just now)
06:25:25 <elliott> play a wizard! they're fun!
06:25:35 <monqy> i want shachaf's xpert opinion
06:25:41 <monqy> shachaf: xpert opinion pls
06:25:52 <monqy> he's probably ascended
06:26:00 <monqy> that's more than both of us put together
06:26:05 <monqy> i think he knows what he's talking about
06:26:11 <monqy> if he was talking!!
06:26:28 <elliott> ais523 has ascended none and played 2 (joke is he doesn't play on NAO)
06:27:07 <elliott> monqy: nethack is weird just play a valkyrie or a wizard
06:27:27 <elliott> ~it doesn't really matter~
06:27:45 <elliott> did you end up with a dwarf valkyrie with random???
06:27:54 <elliott> or did you hit random after picking those
06:28:00 <monqy> 23:27:45 <elliott> did you end up with a dwarf valkyrie with random???
06:28:01 <monqy> 23:27:53 <monqy> yes
06:28:05 <coppro> I need to write menucolors for nh4
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06:28:38 <elliott> monqy: (nothing autopickups except gold)
06:28:44 <elliott> (but there's less floor trash than crawl so)
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06:30:16 <shachaf> monqy: xpert opinion on what
06:30:47 <elliott> shachaf: what is the nethack equivalent of muck
06:31:14 <elliott> you've played kock but not muck. shame. shame on you.
06:31:26 <elliott> shachaf: mummy chaos knight. mummy, wroships xom
06:31:34 <elliott> shachaf: mummy chaos knight. mummy, wroships xom
06:31:52 <elliott> this is bad because xom likes to confuse you
06:31:59 <elliott> so they have "great fun" getting out of confusion
06:32:06 <elliott> but it's bad in a beautiful way which monqy is probably better at articulating than i am
06:32:15 <elliott> monqy: i like how your cat is named squarelos and also you are named squarelos
06:32:35 <elliott> monqy: stop fighting while
06:32:41 <monqy> how does food work
06:32:43 <shachaf> elliott: "s q u a r e l o s e p t i o n" " reddit mode"
06:32:55 <elliott> you pass out every few turns
06:33:11 <elliott> if you really need food pray
06:33:21 <elliott> shachaf: so what's the nethack equivalent of muck!!!
06:34:28 <elliott> monqy: wow do you play every game this stupidly fast
06:35:13 <elliott> but you shattered the things ha ha
06:35:20 <elliott> !nick chestpickerupperers monqy
06:35:28 <elliott> 07:34 <elliott> monqy: wow do you play every game this stupidly fast
06:35:39 <monqy> this is stupidly fast?
06:35:47 <monqy> i dont have enough pw
06:37:02 <monqy> how much damage do those jerks do
06:37:04 <monqy> i dont know when to heal
06:37:10 <elliott> monqy: maybe you should look it up!!!
06:37:10 <monqy> that wasnt fast at all dummy !!! i just dove a bit
06:37:20 <monqy> i also dont want to not dive
06:37:30 <monqy> ok then i dont want to not die
06:37:45 <elliott> diving would be digging for victory or w/e
06:37:50 <monqy> i didnt have a wand
06:38:05 <monqy> im not playing nethack seriously i thought you understood this
06:38:23 <elliott> monqy: maybe you didn't understand that your requirement to play was a serious one!
06:38:31 <elliott> remember that requirement???
06:38:34 <monqy> well then this sucks and i'm not playing
06:38:44 <monqy> i thought you understood i didn't want to play nethack seriously
06:38:48 <elliott> you can't subvert a requirement!
06:39:40 <elliott> monqy: do you know how to dig for victory there's a "great article on it"
06:39:51 <elliott> http://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Digging_for_victory "now you know"
06:40:57 <elliott> im going to join #nethack and tell everyone to look at this person called squarelos
06:41:56 <elliott> shachaf: anyway now you have to play more
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06:56:13 <elliott> coppro: what did you wish for btw
06:56:23 <coppro> blessed fixed greased +3 dunce cap
06:56:58 <elliott> blessed fixed greased +3 fake plastic imitation of the amulet of yendor
06:57:04 <elliott> note to self: wish for that sometime
06:58:09 <coppro> elliott: already had a fpiotaoy
06:58:25 <elliott> but was it blessed fixed greased +3
06:58:49 <coppro> ... I'm making a pokemon reference
06:59:01 <elliott> im tired and its been years since i played pokemon!!!
06:59:25 <coppro> also I think I got all the words wrong
06:59:31 <coppro> it's the thought that counts though
07:02:36 <coppro> (go see my #1 ascension, it's glorious)
07:02:49 <coppro> also don't try to watch the replay
07:04:08 <elliott> also im not watching your entire game unless its short sorry
07:04:16 <elliott> the only roguelike recordings i watch multiple hours of are monqy's
07:04:51 <elliott> coppro: you should play my roguelike it's "great" - testimony by me
07:10:11 <elliott> @tell oerjan I like that "bug fix" in the modified C Deadfish interpreter.
07:22:55 <Sgeo> It's only now processing in my mind that everyone seems to be getting into the "radical UI redesign" thing, not just GNOME and Ubuntu
07:23:03 <Sgeo> And by that, I mean that Windows is doing it
07:27:30 <Gregor> Cheers from Beijing, everybody.
07:27:30 <lambdabot> Gregor: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
07:27:31 <calamari> I will continue running TDE as long as I'm able
07:27:34 <lambdabot> quintopia said 13h 14m 4s ago: *stab stabbity stab*
07:27:40 <Gregor> quintopia: That's not very nice :(
07:29:52 <lambdabot> shachaf asked 14s ago: *hi hiity hi*
07:30:34 <shachaf> Gregor: "Gregor" is a much better nick than "Friendship".
07:30:51 <Gregor> But it's not a nick, it's my bloody name X-D
07:31:19 <Gregor> calamari: I'm connected via an SSH tunnel ;)
07:32:07 <calamari> good thinking.. that way if people start talking about t squares, you don't disappear
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07:37:24 <calamari> if you find the pony factory, please buy me a derpy ;)
07:40:11 <Gregor> I'm rediscovering the fun of being stared at by everyone.
07:40:30 <Gregor> And enjoying how stupidly inexpensive everything is.
07:41:33 <Gregor> No complaints. I'm not blown away, but I haven't really gone anywhere that I expect to blow me away.
07:41:51 <Gregor> I went to a beef noodle place and got the most expensive item on the menu.
07:42:00 <pikhq> Gregor: Oh, you're in 北京? Fun.
07:42:09 <pikhq> Gregor: Imma 漢字 at you a bit.
07:43:09 <pikhq> "Beijing" and "hanzi", respectively, BTW.
07:43:21 <Gregor> calamari: And my dinner the previous night came out to a grand total of $5.
07:43:45 <pikhq> ("Pekin" and "kanji" in Japanese, if you must have that, too)
07:45:37 <Gregor> Unfortunately, there seems to be no way from outside of a restaurant to determine if they have an English menu.
07:46:05 <Gregor> Assuredly the staff won't speak English, but I can point at the menu and they can write down the total price and point at that, but all that still needs an English menu to start with X-D
07:47:45 <Gregor> Think I could go to a Thai restaurant, poorly mispronounce the Thai name for something, and still get it? :)
07:48:31 <pikhq> "英語単菜？" I think would work, but I make no guarantees of that being correct Mandarin.
07:48:55 <pikhq> Also, it is definitely wrong mainland Mandarin, because I don't know how to enter simplified glyphs.
07:49:07 <calamari> can google goggles translate chinese?
07:49:27 <Gregor> Oh, that's a thought ... that requires net though, right?
07:49:37 <Gregor> Then it can't for me :)
07:50:43 <pikhq> Google Translate suggests it's "英文菜単", which makes sense.
07:51:09 <pikhq> "yīngwén càidān", Mandarin reading...
07:51:29 <pikhq> "eibun saitan", Japanese.
07:51:36 <Gregor> "English dishes radiolabeling"
07:52:08 <Gregor> pikhq: I don't know how to interpret the answer to that, since in Mandarin/Chinese you answer "yes" by repeating the verb and there's no verb there.
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07:53:03 <Gregor> Nǐ yǒu yīngwén càidān ma?
07:55:07 <pikhq> Dang I could learn Mandarin quickly. :P
07:55:28 <Gregor> I just learned two new words, woooh X-D
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07:57:11 <pikhq> And further demonstrates my ability to vaguely fake understanding written Chinese just by knowing that Chinese is SVO, not SOV.
07:57:16 <calamari> and the survey says: google goggles fails at recognizing chinese characters
07:58:02 <Gregor> The relationship between Chinese and Japanese is truly strange.
07:58:32 <calamari> lots of very similar words afaik
07:59:02 <pikhq> Gregor: It's basically the relationship between Latin and English.
07:59:25 <pikhq> ... Except *Japanese* is the one with the more complicated grammar.
08:00:33 <pikhq> FYI, that sentence in Japanese would be "貴方は英語のメニューが有りますか。", "anata wa eigo no menyū ga arimasu ka."
08:01:21 <pikhq> (well, you might say it more casually as "英語のメニューが有る？", "eigo no menyū ga aru?")
08:01:26 <Gregor> pikhq: Idonno, the fact that it's a logography instead of an alphabet makes it seem stranger to me.
08:02:18 <pikhq> Gregor: On the part of Chinese, it's a bit more like a syllabary that's got logographic elements...
08:02:40 <pikhq> Gregor: Each glyph maps to a syllable, and (almost) all morphemes are single syllables.
08:02:53 <pikhq> (this is not the case in Japanese)
08:03:35 <Gregor> So, there are words formed of multiple symbols of which the individual symbols may themselves be unrelated words?
08:03:47 <Gregor> (At least in principle, if not necessarily in practice)
08:04:06 <pikhq> Though they're rare and edge cases, from what I understand of Chinese, *yes*.
08:04:09 <mroman> 日 <- day. 日本 <- japan. 本 <- book
08:04:28 <pikhq> Worse, there's a couple that are composed of characters that are *never used outside of that specific word*.
08:04:29 <Gregor> OK, I had no idea. That's like Ancient Egyptian, actually.
08:04:35 <mroman> also they are pronunced differently ;)
08:04:44 <pikhq> Japanese gets things much more confusing.
08:05:15 <pikhq> They take each glyph's semantic components and fudge it to apply to Japanese. And then borrow a lot of words from Chinese, and write them as the Chinese would.
08:05:40 <pikhq> ... Over the course of centuries, with Japanese *and* Chinese pronunciation changing over time.
08:06:15 <pikhq> So, where Chinese has each glyph mapping to a single syllable, Japanese has each glyph mapping to anywhere from 1 to 10 different *strings*.
08:07:31 <pikhq> 上 is perhaps the worst. ue, noboru, nobori, agaru, ageru, jou... Those are just the readings off the top of my head.
08:09:04 <pikhq> By the way, that character just means "up".
08:11:05 <elliott> coppro: Why doesn't NetHack have Crawl's 5?
08:11:10 <pikhq> Dictionary suggests: agari, -agari, agaru, -agaru, ageru, -ageru, ue, -ue, uwa-, kami, nobosu, noboseru, nobori, noboru, yosu, shan, shou, jou, aoi, age, i, ka, kaki, kazu, kan, kou, hotsu.
08:11:25 <pikhq> (everything after "jou" is name-only, though)
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08:14:23 <pikhq> 上がり、上がる、上げる、上、上、上、上す、上せる、上り、上る、上す、上、上、上、上、上、上、上、上、上、上、上、上、上、上 written in kanji & kana...
08:14:26 <elliott> You read: "Someone once ? id th?t wh?t gces up < right c?me cc?n >".--More--
08:14:56 <Vorpal> elliott, nethack or crawl?
08:15:25 <Vorpal> trying to remember what that is about, haven't played nethack for ages
08:15:39 <Vorpal> where did you find it? tombstone?
08:15:49 <pikhq> Gregor: And there's *only one reading of that in Mandarin*! This makes me weep tears of joy.
08:15:59 <elliott> Vorpal: Just on the floor, I think.
08:16:59 <elliott> Deewiant: It rests for 100 turns, or until something happens (where "something happens" includes "full MP/HP").
08:17:19 <elliott> You can just press it and your HP zooms up; it rarely takes more than three presses to get it up unless you're disturbed or poisoned.
08:17:33 <elliott> With NetHack I have to press 50. a lot and it goes so slowly and wastes time after I end up at full HP. :(
08:17:54 <Deewiant> Doesn't NetHack have something like that with 5. or was it ADOM or what that had the convenient 5
08:18:05 <Vorpal> patch nethack to fix it?
08:18:06 <elliott> 5. would rest for five turns
08:18:49 <Deewiant> In some roguelike you can press e.g. 56 on the numpad and it goes east until it sees something new... it's probably NH or ADOM but I forget which.
08:20:20 <elliott> Deewiant: Numpad 5 does not exist.
08:20:27 <elliott> Anyway, that's shift+direction
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08:22:05 <Vorpal> elliott, are you playing on nao?
08:22:15 <elliott> Yes. I just died. But now I'm playing again.
08:22:41 <elliott> What, squarelos died *already*?
08:23:49 <elliott> RIP squarelos, killed by a dart.
08:29:25 <elliott> I usually don't bother worrying about hunger until I end up weak.
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08:29:38 <elliott> Although being satiated is nice.
08:29:46 <elliott> I forgot you're not meant to eat dogs or cats.
08:31:46 <elliott> They're less boring than the dungeon.
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08:32:43 <Vorpal> elliott, aiee, don't pick up unidentified gray stones
08:33:15 <Vorpal> being unobservant is lethal in nethac
08:33:39 <elliott> I rather suspect it's the only thing that is lethal.
08:34:10 <elliott> Vorpal: Can I get away with skipping Sokoban?
08:34:29 <Vorpal> you don't need to do sokoban, but it is actually not that hard IMO
08:34:37 <Vorpal> and it is kind of useful to do
08:34:38 <elliott> It's not hard, it's just boring. I use spoilers.
08:35:27 <Vorpal> elliott, why are you playing wiz?
08:36:04 <elliott> good thing my god loves me
08:36:08 <Vorpal> elliott, I wasn't watching, what did you eat?
08:36:19 <elliott> gnome corpse, but I had just done 50. a bunch to restore points first
08:37:07 <elliott> The mines have a lot better layout than the dungeon.
08:37:48 <Vorpal> elliott, is it a bone level?
08:38:14 <elliott> Wow, my cat's ghost is seriously about to kill me.
08:38:34 <Vorpal> elliott, one of those scrolls could probably save you
08:38:41 <Vorpal> but who knows which one
08:38:49 <elliott> My potion of healing saved me. :p
08:39:01 <elliott> (I used a consumable; that means I've lost.)
08:39:25 <elliott> Every consumable you use means you've done something wrong. In good games, at least.
08:39:44 <elliott> Should have dug for victory.
08:39:52 <elliott> Skipped it before you said that.
08:40:11 <Vorpal> yeah, trying to remember the url though
08:40:47 <elliott> http://alt.org/nethack/player-all.php?player=ehird
08:41:18 <elliott> http://alt.org/nethack/userdata/e/ehird/dumplog/1338884538.nh343.txt
08:41:28 <elliott> H - an uncursed worthless piece of red glass
08:41:54 <Vorpal> where did the gray stone go?
08:42:37 <Vorpal> ah, so not a loadstone (or a blessed one when you picked it up)
08:42:56 <Vorpal> anyway I like the "You were lucky (1) You are dead"
08:43:23 <elliott> Did you know I played NetHack six times on 2012-04-15, and don't remember it in the slightest?
08:43:44 <elliott> Oh, I just checked http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/2012-04-15.
08:44:28 <elliott> Vorpal: Anyway, NetHack is boring.
08:45:05 <elliott> All you have to do is repeatedly do the obvious thing and double-check everything at each step so you don't make a mistake out of boredom.
08:45:07 <Vorpal> but yeah, I haven't played it in over a year now
08:45:14 <elliott> (Okay, this might be less true later on.)
08:45:18 <elliott> (But I'm too bored to get there.)
08:46:04 <elliott> I like Crawl more, even though its earlygame is even worse.
08:46:13 <elliott> At least it practically automates it for you.
08:46:23 <Vorpal> hm, haven't got around to playing crawl yet
08:46:52 <elliott> It has a bunch of crappy flaws and the earlygame is awful and there's lots of stupid things.
08:47:10 <elliott> But it's fun, approx. from the first rune onwards.
08:47:30 <elliott> Crawl Light is better except for the ways in which it's worse, although I'm trying to correct those by prodding dtsund.
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08:47:58 <elliott> Vorpal: Anyway, if you do play Crawl, CDO has low lag in Europe.
08:48:21 <elliott> (Also, the default settings are basically reasonable; you don't need to tweak them. And don't play hugeterm.)
08:48:30 <Vorpal> I generally start playing locally while I'm learning the game
08:48:50 <elliott> hugeterm = terminal larger than 80x24.
08:48:54 <elliott> Messes up ttyrecs. Is uncool.
08:49:19 <elliott> Your LOS is limited enough that it doesn't help you at all in Crawl, anyway.
08:49:23 <Vorpal> as in many chars wide / high
08:49:26 <elliott> (And the message list is several lines long anyway.)
08:49:42 <Vorpal> anyway I doubt I will have time to play crawl any time soon
08:49:51 <Vorpal> btw seen the last humble bundle? It is quite amazing
08:50:02 <elliott> Well, don't play Crawl if you're going to use hugeterm.
08:50:30 <Vorpal> amnesia, limbo, bastion, psychonauts and some game I forgot the name of
08:51:24 <Vorpal> I owned bastion before already, excellent game. Bought the bundle because I wanted Psyconauts. Which turned out to be just as awesome as I had heard it was.
08:53:12 <Vorpal> anyway I need to leave, bye. Will be back in the afternoon
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09:31:42 <shachaf> "psychonauts = awesomenauts" - Vorpal
09:35:00 <shachaf> elliott: "which it is \"btw\""
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09:36:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover can't play Psychonauts.
09:37:11 <elliott> shachaf: Hey, what attributes can a cell have with standard ANSI stuff?
09:37:19 <elliott> Colour, bold/high intensity, what else?
09:37:27 <elliott> I guess italic? At least, some terminals can do italic.
09:37:44 <elliott> Oh, background colour, of course. (Which can also be high intensity? I guess that's an attribute of the colour, rather than of the glyph itself.)
09:37:58 <elliott> shachaf: I know that high intensity backgrounds show as bright for some and blinking for others.
09:38:03 <elliott> So I guess they're represented by the same thing(?)
09:38:19 <elliott> Well, you know what they say.
09:38:23 <elliott> ASCII silly question, get a silly ANSI.
09:38:24 <shachaf> I think blink is its own thing?
09:38:42 <shachaf> elliott: Did you ask that question just to say that?
09:39:09 <elliott> I'm actually implementing it now.
09:39:18 <elliott> , viewOld :: Vector Cell(Char, Attribute)
09:39:26 <elliott> That's my editor window right now.
09:39:39 <elliott> Does that mean I get points?
09:40:14 <elliott> Writing my simultaneous-turn roguelike.
09:40:16 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: Why can't you play Psychonauts?
09:40:17 <elliott> I didn't want to use curses.
09:40:36 <shachaf> elliott: Can you do the display part as a completely separate program, please?
09:40:37 <Phantom_Hoover> shachaf, floating point exception if I talk to Oleander right at the start.
09:40:45 <shachaf> Like the nethack-emacs thing.
09:40:48 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: Which version?
09:41:16 <elliott> shachaf: I will be fully separating display and what-you-can-see calculation (in fact, I've devoted a lot of thought to ways to do that nicely); however, I don't really feel like limiting my communication methods to text.
09:41:25 <elliott> So they'll be linked into the same binary, because Unix can't do anything else.
09:41:43 <shachaf> nethack-emacs does S-expressions?
09:41:50 <elliott> (Also, by "text" I mean "bytes".)
09:41:51 <shachaf> That's, like, totally not text.
09:41:53 <elliott> shachaf: Serialised as bytes.
09:42:05 <elliott> (De)serialisation code is a kludge.
09:42:15 <elliott> I'm too lazy for that shit, man.
09:42:24 <shachaf> Not as much of a kludge as LINKING IT INTO THE SAME BINARY.
09:42:44 <elliott> I suppose you write everything in shell, then, if linking is too much coupling for you?
09:42:46 <shachaf> Or, "as they say on the internet", "baking it in"
09:42:48 <elliott> shachaf: The version is whatever comes with the HB.
09:42:49 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: Well, what platform?
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09:43:15 <shachaf> elliott: The point is, don't make it NetHack, OK?
09:43:16 <elliott> shachaf: My Real Roguelike will have a machine-readable-and-writable kludge UI for bots.
09:43:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Um... I'm running it on Arch, if that's what you mean?
09:43:25 <elliott> But this isn't going to be my Real Roguelike.
09:43:30 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: Oh, there's your problem.
09:43:32 <elliott> This is just an experiment.
09:43:36 <shachaf> You should run it on Windows.
09:43:46 <elliott> I might end up doing the simultaneous-turn thing in my Real Roguelike.
09:43:53 <elliott> shachaf: Have I told you about the simultaneous-turn thing?
09:44:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: (Seriously though, you should try it on Windows. It works for Skyrim.)
09:44:03 <shachaf> But now is too late for that.
09:44:14 <elliott> shachaf: OK, so, you know in roguelikes, you and monsters get turns in a round-robin sort of order thing?
09:44:16 <shachaf> elliott: No, seriously. I'm going to sleep.
09:44:21 <elliott> So when you do something, every other monster gets to see what you did?
09:44:24 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, eventually when I feel like using Windows again
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09:44:31 <elliott> shachaf: Imagine if, instead, everybody decided on their turn simultaneously.
09:44:40 <elliott> So, for instance, you could sidestep ranged attacks on the same turn they're made.
09:44:48 <elliott> Or have a chance of dodging melee attacks by moving during combat.
09:45:01 <elliott> Or have two offensive explody spells collide in midair.
09:45:08 <elliott> That's the power of SIMULTANEOUS-TURN ROGUELIKES!
09:45:15 <elliott> It sounds like fun. So I'm writing a little roguelike to test it out.
09:45:32 <elliott> But it's also a pain to code, because you have to handle all these interactions of simultaneous actions.
09:45:40 <elliott> And that's pretty much all.
09:46:07 <shachaf> The monsters are now totally exposed to the power of the simultaneous-turn roguelike.
09:46:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, maybe if I make it use the system libSDL and libopenal.
09:47:07 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: Psychonauts is, like, worth it, man.
09:47:15 <shachaf> elliott: Have you played Psychonauts?
09:47:30 <shachaf> Has anyone told you what a depressing game it was?
09:47:42 <Phantom_Hoover> My first impressions weren't great, but that was mainly just because I thought the interface was clumsily diegetic.
09:47:52 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: Oh, the interface is terrible.
09:48:00 <shachaf> And you have to get past the first few worlds before it gets interesting.
09:48:53 <shachaf> But you should do it anyway.
09:49:55 <elliott> shachaf: I bet Psychonauts isn't as good as Rayman 2.
09:50:05 <shachaf> elliott: I bet you're wrong.
09:50:20 <elliott> What? No. Rayman 2 is ~the best 3D platforming game of all time.
09:50:25 <shachaf> Wait, do you mean as a game or as an "experience"?
09:50:35 <shachaf> elliott: I've never played Rayman 2, but I don't like 3D platformers much.
09:50:49 <elliott> (It's different because it's good.)
09:50:55 <shachaf> You know what else is different?
09:51:11 <shachaf> "Psychonauts: It's different"
09:51:34 <elliott> (Rayman 3 is also Different! And good. (Possibly a better game? But a less... I don't know the word.))
09:51:48 <elliott> (It's better as a game but perhaps less impressive as an experience, I guess. Your terminology wins.)
09:51:54 <shachaf> elliott: Did you get the HB thing?
09:53:27 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Er, the average is probably going to go up over time from now.
09:53:32 <elliott> So I'll end up paying more.
09:54:29 <elliott> I'll buy it later when the whim takes me.
09:54:40 <elliott> I don't feel like cheapskating this one, anyway.
09:55:20 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANSI_escape_code#CSI_codes guurhg
09:55:46 <shachaf> elliott: Just wait until you hear about "the other" escape codes.
09:56:17 <shachaf> Like the ones used for the mouse.
09:56:24 <elliott> shachaf: Good thing I don't care about the mouse!
09:56:50 <shachaf> "for a good time echo -e '\e(0'"
09:56:55 <elliott> shachaf: Is there a library you can link with that lets you output ANSI stuff and it displays in an SDL window stuff?
09:57:09 <elliott> That would be nice. For running on platforms without convenient terminal things.
09:57:09 <shachaf> Did you have the good time yet?
09:57:54 <shachaf> "for a good time echo $'\e(0'"
09:58:02 <elliott> ␉▒⎽-3.2$ A ≤␊⎽, ├␋⎽ ├␋┼±.
09:58:04 <elliott> ␉▒⎽: A: ␌⎺└└▒┼␍ ┼⎺├ °⎺┤┼␍
09:58:22 <shachaf> It's the line-drawing thing!
09:58:29 <shachaf> Perfect for drawing the walls of a dungeon in NetHack.
09:58:37 <elliott> shachaf: Or you could just: use Unicode!
09:59:17 <shachaf> elliott: Just so you know, your paste messed up my IRC client.
10:00:40 <shachaf> elliott: Play Psychonauts and then tell me whether Rayman 2 is better.
10:00:46 <itidus20> "Play is generally turnbased in abstract chess(what i called it before i learned fairy chess existed). A way to have simultaneous movement however is for each player to write down their move and present them together."
10:01:01 <elliott> OK, but Rayman 2 has childhood and nostalgia on its side.
10:01:05 <shachaf> If it is I'll make serious consideration to acquire it and play it.
10:01:15 <shachaf> elliott: Hah! Psychonauts doesn't!
10:01:16 <itidus20> "Any conflicts could be resolved by repeating the process. repeated conflicts could be resolved by banning that move for all teams."
10:01:24 <elliott> shachaf: Yes. So it'll probably lose :)
10:01:38 <itidus20> that last sentence sounds like nonsense actually
10:01:54 <elliott> shachaf: (Honestly, Rayman 2's gameplay is pretty simple. But it's fun.)
10:02:20 <elliott> (Rayman 3's is more elaborate and probably funner, but Rayman 2 has more nostalgia on its side.)
10:02:43 <shachaf> I talk about how it's good even though I only played it within the last few years at most.
10:03:51 <itidus20> elliott: so, i mean if one was playing a multiplayer roguelike.. each player would write down their move and pass it to an independant game master, who would announce the outcome of that turn
10:04:07 <elliott> shachaf: Well, I mean... I only played Rayman 2 in like... god, I forget years.
10:04:14 <elliott> But I only played Rayman 3 in like 2003! Or 2004.
10:04:29 <elliott> That's, like, three, uh, nine years ag— WOW nine fucking years?? Jesus fucking christ
10:08:28 <itidus20> so what happens if 2 mobs(?) try to occupy the same square in the same turn?
10:08:50 <elliott> shachaf: Oh, there's underline too.
10:08:54 <elliott> shachaf: Why is inversion an attribute?
10:09:00 <elliott> Couldn't you just swap background and foreground?
10:09:24 <elliott> itidus20: One wins. Possibly it's treated as a scuffle of some kind and one or both of them accrue damage.
10:15:18 <shachaf> This is also how NetHack works.
10:15:35 <shachaf> Sometimes you try to move into an empty square to find out that your pet moved into it just before you did.
10:18:14 <elliott> NetHack is supposed to be turn-based.
10:18:17 <elliott> I like how you are sleeping.
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10:22:15 <elliott> shachaf: Are you sleeping soundly?
10:22:42 <shachaf> elliott: I wish I was. :-(
10:25:49 <shachaf> You asked if I was sleeping soundly.
10:25:53 <shachaf> Maybe *you* were making a joke.
10:26:38 <elliott> I guess it's what they say:
10:26:43 <elliott> ASCII silly question, get a silly ANSI.
10:28:00 <elliott> shachaf: You'd watch PH play NetHack right now, right?
10:29:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Psychonauts still gives an FP exception even without its own libraries.
10:30:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: W i n d o w s
10:30:25 <shachaf> elliott: No, I'm going to sleep.
10:30:29 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: You can do it!
10:30:51 <elliott> <bold>who went th</bold>ere i went there
10:31:45 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: And don't give up on it immediately this time when you get it running.
10:31:47 <itidus20> i like how they call themselves america when excluding canada
10:31:58 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: Get past the levitation world at least.
10:32:10 <shachaf> Also the game is full of easter eggs that you should look for.
10:32:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I like how you don't use statuscolors.
10:32:32 <shachaf> Like the thing where everyone turns out to be depressed and suicidal! That's a good easter egg.
10:33:21 <itidus20> the best easter eggs are made of chocolate
10:33:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I like how you saved a game on D:2.
10:33:38 <elliott> So your HP would go red when it was low.
10:34:07 <itidus20> nah i liked easter more pre-diabetes
10:34:36 <itidus20> post-diabetes it's all about avoiding relatives and drinking diet coke
10:35:01 <itidus20> but my diabetes isn't under control well enough for me to avoid sugar...
10:35:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Do you use numpad.
10:36:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You have played literally 42 games of NetHack ever wow you are so bad.
10:36:42 <itidus20> so many choices on the numpad /789 8456 5123
10:36:44 <shachaf> elliott: How many games have you played;
10:37:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Nice burdening.
10:37:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You should read that scroll!
10:37:33 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: Get you-know-what set up.
10:37:42 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: Don't listen to elliott.
10:37:48 <Phantom_Hoover> You know what I'm going to do stupid things just so you get annoyed at me.
10:37:50 <shachaf> The word "elliott" is derived from the word "lie"
10:38:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That's a good thing to say before doing stupid thing unintentionally.
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10:42:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You look like you know what you're doing even less than I do.
10:42:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Well I know that several of the things I'm doing are stupid, see above.
10:42:31 <Taneb> So... slightly more than I do?
10:42:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: 11:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That's a good thing to say before doing stupid thing unintentionally.
10:43:23 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't eat mold corpses when I'm playing sensibly, for one thing.
10:43:37 <Phantom_Hoover> And I never read random scrolls or drink random potions.
10:44:19 <itidus20> i find that the place i live doesn't have nearly enough random scrolls or potions for my liking
10:44:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You should dig for victory.
10:45:21 <itidus20> go into your backyard and break a branch off a tree!
10:45:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You should follow the guide on [[nethackwiki:Digging for victory]].
10:45:57 <elliott> Also your HP is still 35 so I'm not sure why you are worrying.
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10:52:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: congrats you "lose"
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11:22:24 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, wait you can pray to get rid of food poisoning
11:22:39 <elliott> you sure do suck at nethack
11:28:57 <elliott> Deewiant: Did you know shachaf ascended atheist wishless? Observe:
11:32:12 <HackEgo> 2012-04-15.txt:06:37:52: <shachaf> You were an atheist
11:32:24 <HackEgo> 2012-04-15.txt:06:36:52: <shachaf> elliott: But have you ASCENDED NETHACK ATHEIST WISHLESS
11:40:41 <elliott> Deewiant: Do you know about VT100?
11:41:20 <elliott> Deewiant: The codes, and stuff.
11:41:28 <elliott> Deewiant: Like, you know how you can copy text from terminals?
11:41:35 <elliott> And it won't pad it out with a lot of spaces to fill the width?
11:41:41 <elliott> What's the difference between a cell with nothing in it and a cell with a space in it?
11:41:48 <elliott> Can I place a cell with nothing in it at a certain position? How?
11:42:15 <Deewiant> The difference is probably just that there's a line break in the middle of the line. :-P
11:43:03 <elliott> Deewiant: Ah, so you can put an '\n' in a cell?
11:43:17 <elliott> So could I fill the entire terminal with '\n's as a "clear" state?
11:43:23 <elliott> kmc: How does mosh handle this? I know it "synchronises" a terminal.
11:43:35 <elliott> So ostensibly it must be able to make a cell that has something in it not have something in it any more.
11:43:37 <Deewiant> I don't know if you can do that directly.
11:44:20 <Deewiant> If you want to clear the terminal, there's a CSI sequence for that.
11:45:41 <elliott> Deewiant: Mm, but that's inconvenient for my architecture.
11:46:00 <Deewiant> Perhaps your architecture needs tweaking.
11:46:12 <elliott> Basically I consider the terminal to be an 80x24 blob of cell values; I keep track of the "old" state, and updates get filtered into a separate update map, and then I update the terminal accordingly.
11:46:19 <elliott> Deewiant: That is what I am trying to achieve by asking these questions.
11:47:35 <elliott> Deewiant: Implementing my simultaneous-turn roguelike.
11:47:37 <elliott> I didn't want to use curses.
11:48:37 <Deewiant> So can't you set your internal blob to all-blank while issuing the "clear screen" sequence?
11:49:06 <fizzie> You should optimize your updates by using the region-scroll/copy/move stuffs. I remember reading websites with lynx on the VT510, and it was the funkiest, the way blocks of characters would just go all around the place when it decided to reuse some already-on-the-screen stuffs.
11:49:24 <elliott> Deewiant: Well, it's a fixed-size vector; there's not really a concept of "all-blank". More generally, the initial fill *does* have some relevant properties (for instance, black background); I would rather not special-case that kind of thing.
11:49:31 <elliott> Deewiant: Remember that when I overwrite text, it may be with a shorter string.
11:49:43 <elliott> So I'll need to replace cells with "emptiness" even if I special-case the initialt hing.
11:49:54 <elliott> fizzie: That... might actually be useful, since I have a scrolling viewport.
11:50:01 <elliott> fizzie: But it's too fiddly for me to consider.
11:50:20 <Deewiant> elliott: The concept of "all-blank" would be "spaces in every cell". If you need to keep track of the size, do that separately. Likewise for blank vs. space, if you need that differentiation.
11:50:46 <elliott> Deewiant: OK. So I fill the terminal with spaces. Now I want to display this text in the top-left corner:
11:50:59 <elliott> And when the user copies it, I want there to be no spaces after "world.".
11:52:04 <elliott> fizzie: (By the way, what happened to "optomize"?)
11:52:05 <Deewiant> Are you implementing a terminal or running in another one? If you're running in some existing terminal, I would imagine that after issuing the "clear screen" sequence that would work fine. I.e. only do the "all spaces" thing internally.
11:52:17 <elliott> Deewiant: Running in another one.
11:52:40 <Deewiant> Doing the "all spaces" thing externally is gross IMO.
11:52:42 <elliott> then it would result in no space being inserted after foo.
11:52:50 <elliott> The idea is to synchronise the internal state with the external state.
11:52:59 <Deewiant> Why would that result in no space?
11:52:59 <elliott> So since there's already a space between foo and bar, or so it thinks, it would simply skip that cell.
11:53:06 <elliott> 12:52 <Deewiant> Doing the "all spaces" thing externally is gross IMO.
11:53:12 <elliott> That's why I was asking what I should do that wasn't that.
11:53:15 <Deewiant> Okay, so you need to internally differentiate between "space" and "blank".
11:53:22 <Deewiant> Or have a dirty bit on each cell, or something.
11:53:31 <elliott> Deewiant: Remember the part where I have to turn some cells from non-blank into blank?
11:53:37 <elliott> When replacing a line with a shorter one.
11:53:53 <Deewiant> Right, what's the problem there?
11:54:03 <Deewiant> Externally: erase rest of line. Internally: assign blank to cells.
11:54:15 <elliott> So now I have to special-case lines too?
11:54:31 <elliott> The whole point of this is to insulate me from the terminal's vagaries and treat it as a simple block display :P
11:54:59 <Deewiant> Simplest way to do that is to clear the screen at every time. :-P
11:55:21 <Deewiant> I'd imagine that's why the corresponding CSI sequences exist.
11:55:35 <elliott> I could "special-case lines" by synchronising blank cells with clear line sequences, I suppose.
11:55:45 <elliott> But then I run into impossible states like a blank cell in the middle of a line.
11:56:07 <elliott> I know mosh treats the terminal as just a block display to be synchronised, so I'm hopeful it has some nice solution. (Thus the kmc ping.)
11:56:20 <elliott> (Or else I misunderstand mosh's architecture.)
11:56:34 <Deewiant> Maybe its solution is to use curses, which handles the vagaries internally. :-P
11:58:08 <elliott> Deewiant: I'm pretty sure software which deals with UTF-8 vt220 state machines and whatever "ISO 2022 locking escape sequences" are would not use curses.
11:58:25 <elliott> Especially given the whole "handles awkward Unicode edge-cases better than terminal software" thing.
11:58:44 <HackEgo> 49) <ehird> no Deewiant <Deewiant> No?! <Deewiant> I've been living a lie <ehird> yep. <Deewiant> Excuse me while I jump out of the window ->
12:02:21 <fizzie> elliott: Have you tested if it works right if you just make blanks by using the "erase character" ECH escape sequence? Though ECH is apparently not part of the plain VT100 set. ("Delete" is, but it moves stuff in from the right side.)
12:02:42 <elliott> And I haven't really written any code to output ANSI sequences at all yet, but this sounds promising.
12:03:30 <elliott> (I don't want to use anything that xterm/(u)rxvt/gnome-terminal/Konsole don't support, more or less.)
12:03:37 <fizzie> ECH is in at least the Linux console_codes, xterm's list of codes, the VT200 set, and ECMA-48, so it's not *terribly* rare.
12:03:52 <elliott> VT200 sounds good enough for me.
12:04:33 <elliott> fizzie: (What is the code?)
12:05:05 <elliott> Anyway, it's... slightly suboptimal, in that I'll output an awful lot of them at the end of a line.
12:05:22 <fizzie> VT200 as in "VT2xx". And it's \e[nX where n's the number if characters to erase.
12:05:23 <elliott> But I just realised now that I probably can't make much use of blanks at all.
12:05:55 <elliott> Depends on how I organise my layout.
12:05:59 <fizzie> Or <CSI>nX, I suppose, if one wants to be real fancy and 8-bit.
12:06:24 <elliott> (What happens if you have "a.b" and then erase the ".", I wonder...)
12:07:14 <fizzie> It will "cause the active presentation position and the n-1 following character positions in the presentation component to be put in the erased state", if you want the ECMA description of what happens.
12:07:49 <fizzie> VT220 manual says "Erasing removes characters from the screen without affecting other characters on the screen. Erased characters are lost. The cursor position does not change when erasing characters or lines."
12:08:23 <fizzie> It also puts erase-character in the same group as the usual erase-in-line "clear to the end of line/start of line/complete line" code, so it presumably should be somewhat similar.
12:08:37 <elliott> Well, VT220 doesn't really have a way to select text with the mouse.
12:08:41 <elliott> Which is the behaviour I'm interested in.
12:10:24 <elliott> fizzie: Does "a beside b" imply a is to the left of b? If not, is the a verb instead of "beside" that does?
12:10:31 <elliott> Like "a above b" implies a is to the... upwards of b.
12:11:04 <fizzie> "leftof" is so a verb.
12:11:23 <elliott> Er, "beside" isn't even a verb.
12:13:48 <fizzie> FWIW, echo 'foo ' in my terminal results in "foo" with three selectable spaces after, and echo -e 'foo \e[3D\e[3X' doesn't really help, while echo -e 'foo \e[3D\e[K' propely makes just a 'foo' with no selectable spaces after, so maybe you do have to clear to end of line to get short lines.
12:14:22 <elliott> Maybe I'll just use Qt or something and use a proper text field for my status line.
12:14:50 <fizzie> (And 'foobar\e[3D\e[3X
12:14:59 <fizzie> ' gives a 'foo ' too.)
12:15:05 <fizzie> (With the silly spaces.)
12:16:40 <elliott> fizzie: So, teach me about VT colours.
12:16:53 <elliott> You know how some terminals interpret blinking as blinking, and some interpret it as setting the background colour to high intensity?
12:17:15 <elliott> Can I get, e.g. a dark grey (i.e. high-intensity black) background in a "portable" way? (portable, n. works on xterm without configuration)
12:21:52 <fizzie> That's a funny definition of portable, having just one terminal emulator there. (Anyway, I think it's still possible to compile xterm without 16-colour support, in which case you can't get that at all.)
12:22:10 <elliott> fizzie: By "xterm", I mean "xterm and rxvt and so on".
12:22:26 <elliott> fizzie: The reason I say it that way is because you can set rxvt to treat it as high-intensity background etc. etc. but that doesn't count as "portable".
12:23:25 <elliott> Or, more generally: Is there any way to do it other than setting blink?
12:23:29 <elliott> (256colors need not apply.)
12:23:48 <fizzie> The fore/background "bright color" codes 90..107 should I think Just Work in the sense that they at least won't start blinking, presumably in xterm- and rxvt-derived stuffs. Not so sure about Linux console, though.
12:24:25 <fizzie> 90..97 are bright versions of 30..37 and 100..107 of 40..47 in the \e[...m construction.
12:24:27 <elliott> Is that in any standard? Will the foreground versions show as bold in a terminal emulator set to display bold text as thickened, or just as bright?
12:25:00 <fizzie> Those should be just bright colours, since they don't involve the bold attribute '1' there.
12:25:24 <elliott> Bit worried about the portability of that.
12:25:31 <elliott> (Wondering if it'll work in gnome-terminal, for instance.)
12:29:18 <elliott> fizzie: (So is it in any standard?)
12:30:15 <fizzie> According to http://bjh21.me.uk/all-escapes/all-escapes.txt not really. I'm not sure if there's anything more standard to get a bright background, though.
12:30:34 <fizzie> Even the "bold is bright" foreground thing isn't exactly global.
12:31:17 <elliott> So, theoretically, I could just use these universally and fully decouple bright/not-bright from bold, right?
12:31:31 <elliott> (Except that I couldn't have a non-bright bold cell, because it'd end up becoming bright.)
12:32:10 <fizzie> Yeah, if you toggle bold on, it'd become bold, bright, or bold and bright, depending.
12:33:54 <elliott> fizzie: Maybe I'll just not use colours at all.
12:34:36 <elliott> (Does anyone have a Linux console handy?)
12:35:57 <fizzie> ECMA-48 specifies a hilariously long list of attributes for SGR (i.e. \e[...m). You can have things blink slowly or rapidly, you can have characters concealed or crossed-out-but-still-legible, you can use first, second, ..., ninth alternative font, you can enable fraktur mode, you can have the stuff framed and/or encircled, whatever.
12:37:52 <fizzie> Sadly, it does nothing in my terminal.
12:40:01 <elliott> "hardly ever supported" -- Wikipedia (uncited)
12:40:38 <fizzie> For an old-fashioned "vgacon" Linux console, I doubt you can get a bright background no matter what you do, since I think it's -- unless you do tricks -- stuck in the default text mode, which has Blink Enable on, so there's just three bits of attributes for the background color physically.
12:41:10 <nortti> elliott: what do you need linux terminal for?
12:41:30 <elliott> fizzie: But framebuffer???
12:41:57 <fizzie> That's another thing, I wouldn't be surprised if fbcon didn't do blink at all.
12:42:10 <fizzie> Since it'd need to manually blink that stuff.
12:42:22 <fizzie> It sounds like the sort of thing they wouldn't have bothered to implement.
12:45:31 <fizzie> I don't have a framebuffer console on this thing, ISTR it didn't play nice with the nvidia driver. On vgacon, bold ('1') will make foreground bright, and blink ('5') will make things blink, but the bright-colour codes don't do anything at all.
12:48:28 <elliott> I'm tempted to just stick with sixteen backgrounds, sixteen foregrounds, and a "bold" attribute, with the understanding that it'll either make it bold or brighten the foreground or both.
12:48:36 <elliott> Also an underline attribute. Which will hopefully just... underline.
12:48:59 <elliott> fizzie: By the way, why is inverse a separate attribute?
12:49:03 <elliott> You could just swap the background and foreground instead.
12:49:12 <elliott> Or does lo-fi stuff support inverse but not background/foreground colours?
12:49:21 <fizzie> That's very common, yes.
12:50:43 <elliott> fizzie: You have a funny definition of "very". I like it.
12:51:05 <elliott> I bet NetHack supports things that only support inverse and not background/foreground colours.
12:51:13 <elliott> (And actually uses it, I mean.)
12:51:20 <fizzie> Well, I mean, if you have a non-color terminal, it'll still do inverse. My VT420 and VT510 were like that.
12:55:57 <nortti> do you meant that everyone has non-color terminals
12:56:27 <nortti> fizzie: you own physical terminals?
12:56:56 <fizzie> nortti: I used to, but I gave one of them away to a friend, and the smoke came out of the other one.
12:57:36 <fizzie> I used to have one under my desk for IRC purposes, I think.
12:57:48 <fizzie> If there were people visiting, for example.
12:58:12 <nortti> fizzie: did you ever attach one to serial port of linux machine and use it from there
12:58:18 <elliott> fizzie: Can you give me an algorithm that goes from a two-dimensional map of coordinates and replacement cells to put there to an ~optimal sequence of ANSI codes to perform those updates?
12:58:48 <fizzie> nortti: Yes, that's how I mostly used it.
12:59:18 <fizzie> The VT510 was very fancy. It did text modes up to something like 50 lines, and had a hardware status line, and a built-in calculator and whatever.
12:59:29 <fizzie> elliott: Nnno, I don't think I can.
12:59:39 <elliott> fizzie: Well, it doesn't have to be optimal optimal.
12:59:53 <elliott> Do clever things like optimise the order in which to move about so it can use shorter movement sequences.
12:59:56 <nortti> fizzie: did it have some kind of microprocessor in it?
13:01:08 <fizzie> nortti: Sure, I mean, it has to decode the codes, and present a setup menu and whatnot. If you pressed the right magic keys, it gave you a "graphical" (line-drawing characters) desk calculator thing. There was a key to paste the result in as if you had typed it.
13:02:00 <nortti> hmm. a real terminal would be nice to have
13:02:25 <fizzie> It also had a menu-driven configuration thing. I mean, look at this stuff: http://www.vt100.net/docs/vt510-rm/f2-21.png
13:02:33 <fizzie> There was also a clock.
13:03:00 <fizzie> Very configurable thing.
13:03:07 <elliott> That's too much configuration. :(
13:03:20 <fizzie> http://www.vt100.net/docs/vt510-rm/chapter2 lotsa menus.
13:03:53 <fizzie> Many character sets, too.
13:04:16 <elliott> IMO there should be at most 2.45 buttons on everything and one of them does nothing (it is there to reassure you).
13:04:29 <nortti> fizzie: that thing would pass for GUI I have designed if it didn't have that blocky text "Terminal Set-Up"
13:05:22 <fizzie> Oh, it has local copy-paste support too.
13:06:02 <fizzie> http://www.vt100.net/docs/vt510-rm/chapter3 <- there's a picture of the calculator.
13:07:14 <fizzie> And the hard status line was funky too, with screen.
13:07:33 <elliott> fizzie: Is the algorithm done yet?
13:10:43 <fizzie> elliott: Just scan it left-to-right, top-to-bottom, output when changed, track where you were and prepend a movement command when necessary. Sounds optimal enough: won't bounce around (vertically), and consecutive cells will be just output without intervening commands. Though it might be slightly tricky to update the bottom-right cell.
13:10:58 <elliott> fizzie: Yes, but e.g. imagine this update
13:11:15 <elliott> It might be better to go down after b and then up-right after b.
13:11:21 <elliott> Rather than doing a full-coordinate-in-decimal reposition thing.
13:12:34 <fizzie> "abc", move to d, "d" sounds still shorter; I mean, outputting character moves you automatically one step right, and all the movement characters are like three commands long.
13:12:50 <fizzie> Movement commands, three characters.
13:12:53 <elliott> Moving to d involves a global reposition thing.
13:13:02 <elliott> And what if you're at 1000000,1000000?
13:13:13 <fizzie> At 1000000000,1000000000 in your 80x24 screen?
13:13:23 <elliott> Or do you mean use cursor-style movement exclusively?
13:13:35 <elliott> In which case, that'll be bad when you have something changed at the top and bottom, say.
13:13:56 <elliott> (Hmm, is line-wrapping behaviour guaranteed?)
13:14:08 <elliott> (So you can skip a reposition to the start of the next line in... very pathological cases.)
13:15:08 <elliott> fizzie: So, just to clarify:
13:15:19 <elliott> abc<absolute reposition to one line down and column 0>def
13:15:30 <elliott> That still seems possibly suboptimal to me. But okay. :p
13:18:51 <fizzie> Well, you did say "not optimal optimal", and it's simple to do. Anyway, when you see the cursor isn't where you want it to be, that's a place where you can conveniently decide whether to use something else than an absolute movement command if it seems shorter. (E.g. check if it's same line/column -- the former more often, presumably, if you scan in the reading order -- and use the ...
13:18:57 <fizzie> ... up/down/left/right movements, or the "absolute column on current row" one.)
13:19:24 <elliott> Right. But the idea behind a super-almost-optimal one would be to rearrange all the updates to get the most favourable sequence of movements :P
13:19:28 <elliott> Anyway, I'll just do the obvious thing.
13:20:48 <fizzie> You can also omit the r and/or c in \e[r;cH when the row or column is 1. (It's 1-based.)
13:21:02 <elliott> Hmm, this means I want to nest my updates map (y,x).
13:21:06 <elliott> (It's an IntMap (IntMap Cell).)
13:21:11 <elliott> That will be very confusing. :(
13:22:17 <fizzie> (And same for column c in \e[cG, and I guess also for the relative movements when moving by one notch.)
13:22:45 <elliott> I wonder what curses does? Oh, curses just relies on context given at the time of mutation. (Ew.)
13:25:39 <fizzie> I've often wondered what piece of code (curses, screen, lynx itself) was responsible for the plainly visible update-optimization when using the physical terminal. I mean, it was clever enough to scroll large blocks both horizontally and vertically to position them right, instead of redrawing.)
13:29:03 <elliott> fizzie: I really want to use that. :(
13:29:12 <elliott> Because, I mean, have you ever played Dungeon Crawl?
13:30:38 <nortti> Indiana has law saying that Pi=3
13:31:05 <elliott> nortti: And did you know that the word "gullible" isn't in the dictionary?!?!??!?!?!?!??!?!?!
13:32:55 <nortti> elliott: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indiana_Pi_Bill
13:33:18 <elliott> nortti: Did you notice the word coming after "The bill never became"?
13:33:25 <elliott> It's in the second paragraph, so you might have missed it...
13:33:39 <elliott> cf. also http://www.snopes.com/religion/pi.asp
13:44:09 <elliott> fizzie: data Thing = Jump Point | Skip Int | Write Cell
13:44:12 <elliott> What should I call this, man???
13:51:46 <elliott> Deewiant: That could work, thanks
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14:01:38 <elliott> fizzie: Oh, I just realised that my thing has somewhat suboptimal behaviour for "foo bar" when there was previously spaces.
14:01:47 <elliott> It should just overwrite the space, but instead it'll use CSI C
14:02:30 <elliott> Perhaps I'll special-case a difference of less than three characters.
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14:29:47 <coppro> elliott: what is crawl's 5? Wait a turn?
14:30:30 <elliott> coppro: no, wait 100 turns or until something happens; "something" includes "a monster comes into view", "MP restored", and "HP restored"
14:30:42 <elliott> in NetHack I just have to spam 50., which (a) is tedious and slow and (b) wastes turns after full HP restore
14:31:00 <elliott> in Crawl you can go from nearly dead to full HP in about 3 seconds with judicious application of 5
14:31:09 <elliott> probably more like 1.5 seconds
14:31:23 <elliott> oh, it also searches too, which is nice
14:33:51 <elliott> fizzie: What are the arguments to the select graphic rendition stuff
14:34:00 <elliott> "CSI n [;k] m" but I see no indication of when you'd use a k.
14:34:05 <elliott> And apparently there can be more than one.
14:35:10 <coppro> elliott: that would be nice
14:35:31 <elliott> coppro: it would also be nice to have an actual hp bar on the bottom row... but it's pretty cramped already
14:35:38 <coppro> elliott: nh4 has an hp bar
14:35:49 <elliott> did it have one the last time I played?
14:35:55 <Deewiant> elliott: k is used when setting colours
14:35:56 <elliott> I don't remember it being the kind of bar I'd want anyway
14:36:06 <elliott> Deewiant: Oh, just 256-colour stuff?
14:36:35 <elliott> coppro: Crawl has the luxury of not being able to even try fitting a map onto one screen so it can stuff a lot of stuff on the screen instead
14:37:05 <coppro> elliott: nh4 just takes more screen real estate
14:37:27 <elliott> coppro: You're not telling me you use hugeterm, are you?
14:37:50 <elliott> I'm not talking to you any more.
14:38:05 <elliott> nortti: any terminal larger than 80x24
14:38:10 <elliott> terminals smaller than 80x24 are acceptable
14:39:42 <nortti> shit. I can't really resize my 160x64 terminal
14:42:02 <elliott> It's OK to use bigger ones for a console.
14:42:06 <elliott> It's not OK to play games with them.
14:42:14 <elliott> (Or, more generally, broadcast them.)
15:10:40 <coppro> elliott: nitro and hence nh4 doesn't require termcasting
15:10:51 <coppro> still a few mechanics need sorting out there
15:10:57 <elliott> coppro: It doesn't matter.
15:11:05 <elliott> That is, playing a game locally in hugeterm is a sin, too.
15:12:38 <elliott> (Further guidance would be above my pay grade; consult High Priest monqy.)
15:20:48 <nooga> why does 'else' in scheme does not evaluate to #t ?
15:21:41 <itidus20> i apologize for the rudeness of this but its more of an experiment
15:21:46 <itidus20> @google why does 'else' in scheme does not evaluate to #t ?
15:21:48 <lambdabot> ftp://ftp.cs.cmu.edu/usr/ai/html/r4rs/r4rs_6.html
15:23:32 <nooga> it does not explain why
15:24:01 <nooga> it'd be rude if you've used lmgtfy
15:24:50 <elliott> nooga: Because it's usually used in a context where evaluating it as a value would not make sense
15:25:25 <elliott> (else 'consonant)) ===> consonant
15:25:27 <elliott> library syntax: (and <test1> ...)
15:26:01 <elliott> It's supported in COND also for consistency. It could be a value defined as #t, but since it's special in some control structures, why not just use it as a keyword in them and treat it in a uniform manner?
15:27:33 <nooga> right, i forgot about case & stuff
15:27:44 <elliott> Hey, my memory isn't that good either.
15:27:50 <elliott> I pulled up R5RS to check my hunch.
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15:28:12 <itidus20> it may surprise some of you, especially, hmm.. especially fungot, but under the right conditions i do know how it's supposed to feel to learn things ^_^
15:28:27 <itidus20> a chat i had before reminded me of it
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15:29:19 <Ngevd> irssi won't let me talk...
15:29:28 <itidus20> maybe it's not supposed to feel like anything as an adult
15:29:48 <itidus20> maybe learn is learn, with no manipulative pleasure
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15:31:09 <Ngevd> elliott, Ngevd is XChat, Taneb is irssi
15:31:42 <itidus20> i thought logo was rubbish when i saw it though..
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15:35:50 <itidus20> maybe i'm missing something, part of the fun of thinking, by always being concerned with the applied, practical, concrete side of things
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15:36:54 <HackEgo> Taneb: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
15:36:58 <HackEgo> NGEVD: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.)
15:37:47 <Ngevd> Well, I've worked it out
15:37:55 <Ngevd> It helps if you are in the channel pane
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15:38:38 <Taneb> I was in the status bit
15:38:42 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: whois: not found
15:39:34 <Taneb> `echo Taneb is Ngevd
15:44:09 <Taneb> I'm leaving for various reasons
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16:11:48 <elliott> [exists v. (Eq v) => (v -> String, Attrs -> v)]
16:12:03 <elliott> obvious preapplication Attrs -> String
16:12:07 <elliott> but also Attrs -> Attrs -> Bool
16:37:29 <elliott> @hoogle (Monoid a) => Bool -> a -> a
16:37:30 <lambdabot> Control.Exception.Base assert :: Bool -> a -> a
16:37:30 <lambdabot> Control.Exception assert :: Bool -> a -> a
16:37:30 <lambdabot> Control.OldException assert :: Bool -> a -> a
16:53:39 <elliott> fizzie: So, the reset/normal SGR thing.
16:53:43 <elliott> Does that reset the foreground/background too?
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17:01:02 <fizzie> To the "default". It might not be exactly any of the other colours.
17:04:15 <elliott> fizzie: Oh, hey, you can just do \ESC[a;b;c;dm for \ESC[am\ESC[bm\ESC[cm\ESC[dm.
17:05:03 <fizzie> It says that in places.
17:05:25 <elliott> Except for the WP articles.
17:05:48 <fizzie> "After CSI can be zero or more parameters separated with ;." (The WP article.)
17:06:11 <fizzie> Deewiant: What, you haven't ever set bright red with \e[31;1m?
17:06:57 <Deewiant> Oh, it's not the convenient thing I thought it was.
17:07:00 <elliott> fizzie: Yes, but "parameters" is ambiguous.
17:07:09 <Deewiant> But then elliott confused me by asking about 256-colour.
17:07:11 <elliott> For instance, see that xterm-256 takes a colour parameter after it.
17:07:16 <elliott> Deewiant: Because that's all that was mentioned as using it!
17:07:21 <elliott> @hoogle (a -> Maybe b) -> [a] -> [b]
17:07:22 <lambdabot> Data.Maybe mapMaybe :: (a -> Maybe b) -> [a] -> [b]
17:07:22 <lambdabot> Prelude mapM :: Monad m => (a -> m b) -> [a] -> m [b]
17:07:22 <lambdabot> Control.Monad mapM :: Monad m => (a -> m b) -> [a] -> m [b]
17:09:04 <elliott> Behold the horror: http://sprunge.us/jOLb
17:09:06 <fizzie> Well, the 88/256-colour things are sorta silly, the way they change what the following parameters mean.
17:10:07 <elliott> Now I should probably just get rid of the Action type by applying the trusty old single-use-data -> code transformation.
17:10:31 <elliott> And after I've done all this, all I'll have to solve is input. Still better than using curses.
17:14:16 <fizzie> Have you solved the matter of the screen scrolling if you output a character to the bottom-right cell? I think that sometimes happens.
17:15:14 <elliott> fizzie: Seems to work fine here.
17:15:40 <elliott> Admittedly this is in Terminal.app, voted "not the best" terminal emulator in a nationwide poll.
17:16:32 <elliott> fizzie: Do you have `'nation-wide" polls in Finland?
17:16:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Tell fizzie about nation-wide polls.
17:20:13 <fizzie> Not that I know of, any sort of official things, I don't think.
17:22:49 <fizzie> As for the terminal thing, it does not seem to scroll in urxvt either, but I think it is a possible mode of operation, that the automatic-margin linewrap ends up causing a scroll. (It does seem to scroll the terminal if I move to the bottom-right corner and output two characters.)
17:26:41 <fizzie> (There's a terminfo boolean property "semi_auto_right_margin", with the description "printing in last column causes cr", it might be that sort of a thing.)
17:27:20 <elliott> fizzie: Here's a TEST PROGRAM:
17:29:36 <fizzie> Well, it puts an ugly @ at the corner there.
17:29:52 <elliott> (Append ; sleep 3 for scrolltesting, of course.)
17:31:02 <fizzie> Well, no, not in my terminal. But I think it's only sucky terminals that would, anyway.
17:31:12 <elliott> (That @ is a fleeing Terence standing on top of items, if we take monqy's Crawl's rc as a guide.)
17:32:51 <shachaf> elliott: Did you know I ascended NetHack atheist wishless?
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17:33:09 <elliott> I never heard that before.
17:33:11 <shachaf> elliott: SO the logs inform me!
17:33:28 <elliott> shachaf: Ah, you're one of those "log" "readers".
17:33:30 <fizzie> Text mode trivia of the day: VGA text mode has a hardware "underline" feature, but it's usually disabled in color text modes, because it's enabled by a particular background/foreground combination, and that's a bit silly.
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17:33:51 <elliott> fizzie: That's a good point. What does that program do on your nearest Linux console?
17:33:55 <shachaf> elliott: More like one of those "scrollback" "backlog" "scrollbacklog" readers.
17:34:14 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean caffeine is all well and good, but when it moves on to opium and VX I get the sense that someone will glance at it and I'll end up in Guantanamo Bay.
17:34:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: How many people do you know that know the molecular structure of opium?
17:35:08 <elliott> Even *I* don't know that. Maybe I should learn it.
17:35:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Just paste a sticky note underneath where it displays it saying "IS BAD FOR YOU".
17:36:23 <fizzie> elliott: It does not do anything terribly interesting in my VGA console, though nothing is underlined. (The Linux console doesn't do underlining anyway; you can specify a particular colour that will be used for underlined text, but I think that's ignored if you actually set a colour.)
17:36:55 <elliott> fizzie: But I want underlining, though. :(
17:37:15 <fizzie> Well, you can't have it in a Linux console, it just doesn't do it.
17:38:20 <fizzie> It's nontrivial to do for vgacon, because the hardware is not so capable of it.
17:38:51 <elliott> fizzie: I bet Abrash could do it.
17:41:15 <fizzie> The only coloured text you can underline is I think (dark or bright) red on black, because that's the setting of the attribute bits that enables underline generation.
17:42:49 <nortti> in fbcon \e[4m turns text odd colored
17:43:27 <fizzie> nortti: But I think it doesn't if you set a color manually.
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17:44:13 <fizzie> nortti: You can use \e[1;n] to make 'n' the colour (0..7) that's used to simulate the underlining.
17:44:13 <nortti> it doesn't underline it, it just changes color
17:45:11 <fizzie> Well, fancy that, it does in fact override a set colour too.
17:46:32 <elliott> @ask monqy you forgot @messages?
17:46:33 <fizzie> nortti: I didn't notice the colour-change because it was the same colour that the text was already supposed to be.
17:46:40 <lambdabot> elliott asked 8s ago: you forgot @messages?
17:46:45 <elliott> @ask monqy you forgot @messages? again
17:47:56 <shachaf> elliott: Did you ascend yet?
17:48:36 <shachaf> fizzie: Did you play Psychonauts yet?
17:50:59 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
17:51:35 <shachaf> monqy: Phoover is gone, so you'll have to play Psychonauts instead.
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17:52:06 <elliott> One application of the motion to suspend the rules is called the "Gordian knot" motion.[9] If confusion has caused the assembly to get so tangled up in a parliamentary snarl that neither the chairman nor the members can unravel it, a member can move to suspend the rules to start fresh. The use of the "Gordian Knot" motion is illustrated in The Standard Code with this example: "Madam President, in view of the confusion about the parlia
17:52:07 <elliott> mentary situation, I believe it would be best if we were to cancel out everything that has been done on this motion and start over from the beginning, permitting the motion to be resubmitted in whatever form the maker wishes. I move that the rules be suspended to permit this."[9]. The "Gordian Knot" version of suspend the rules was introduced by Floyd Riddick, Parliamentarian Emeritus of the United States Senate, at a meeting of the B
17:52:07 <elliott> oard of Directors of the American Institute of Parliamentarians.[10] RONR does not make reference to the "Gordian Knot".
17:52:35 <fizzie> shachaf: No, I've been sick. Also I played a bit of LIMBO and Bastion.
17:53:10 <shachaf> fizzie: Psychonauts is probably better!
17:53:13 <elliott> fizzie: Get well soon! Or die.
17:53:17 <elliott> Those are probably the only two options.
17:53:33 <shachaf> If so, play Psychonauts; it'll have childhood nostalgia on its side.
17:54:52 <elliott> fizzie: I don't suppose the console supports 256colours. :p
17:55:19 <fizzie> elliott: No, though fbcon technically could. (As far as I know, it doesn't.)
17:55:42 <elliott> Maybe I should just go "completely brogue".
17:56:44 <elliott> (This involves Actual Windowing and so many colours.)
17:56:48 <elliott> fizzie: Have you played brogue?
17:57:11 <fizzie> Not long ago rxvt-unicode didn't support 256 colours either; it's "traditionally" done the 88-colour thing. (Nowadays it does the 256 too.)
17:57:27 <elliott> Yes, and all the telnet server things disconnect clients with the 256 colours rxvt-unicode $TERM.
17:57:33 <elliott> So you have to set it to rxvt-unicode. :(
17:57:47 <elliott> Well, not "simple" in the bad sense.
17:57:52 <elliott> But it's not fiddly to play.
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17:58:17 <fizzie> It doesn't seem to be even Wikipedia-notable!
17:58:24 <elliott> http://sites.google.com/site/broguegame/
17:58:32 <shachaf> What happened to 4 billion colours?
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17:58:36 <fizzie> Yes, it does seem to be Google-notable.
17:58:40 <elliott> It's popular "in the community", as they say.
17:59:53 <elliott> fizzie: It's basically like rogue, were rogue a lot less simplistic and fleshed out and developed in 2012 and really ridiculously pretty.
18:00:11 <elliott> (cf. http://308192c9-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/broguegame/home/screenshots/DarBattlemage.png?attachauth=ANoY7coM1tv9xZVXhGG5TH-dIf9KXWO7LgbsbsP-kCl8yGK0RvdI5rsCDwwz1f9rKRHgveM8eUkdxjEoF5-zeIBswnGMRDJa80aLD9nfdKQjxZYG2JYgaLH-G5A0OQu8hTjAP91omhpxXxU_v8Ve7h-lC6qT9jiGMPUtFmcY-Fvic3pGifXjq4eubAjy2vnEfn09nkS4TosoK9KAU9z_QaT6dJGs1UktL_erux-isDM7_fiRYfz3UBw%3D&attredirects=0)
18:00:24 <fizzie> I don't think I've ever really had 4 billion colours anywhere. It's a weird amount to have, not being 2^n where n%3 == 0.
18:00:40 <elliott> "The dar blademaster is standing, burning, in a pool of blood." -- yes, me too.
18:00:41 <fizzie> Well, that's certainly pretty.
18:01:07 <elliott> fizzie: The water is even prettier. Actually every part of the game is prettier than every other part of it.
18:01:17 <elliott> It has a whole light-illumination thing on every tile and all.
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18:02:19 <fizzie> "You typically hit for 10860% of the goblin conjurer's maximum HP, and at best could defeat it in 1 hit."
18:02:36 <elliott> fizzie: What... did you do.
18:02:44 <fizzie> I looked at a screenshot.
18:02:48 <elliott> monqy: You should endorse brogue! It says in my contract I get a bonus if I get you to endorse it too.
18:02:53 <fizzie> The one called Conjurer-on-bridge.png.
18:03:08 <elliott> fizzie: I dunno, sounds like a risky battle to me.
18:03:12 <monqy> , as far as roguelikes go
18:03:13 <elliott> What about the worst-case????
18:03:20 <fizzie> You also have a 100% chance to hit.
18:03:37 <elliott> Yes, but what if you hit for, e.g. only 900% of the goblin conjurer's maximum HP?
18:04:16 <monqy> brogue has problems but it's a pretty good game
18:04:17 <elliott> (Brogue Tips: You can technically examine things and travel to places using the keyboard, but once you get used to it hover-to-examine and click-to-travel are really convenient. Also + increases the font size.)
18:04:22 <monqy> i should get back into brogue
18:04:25 <elliott> (I think that's all the brogue tips I have.)
18:04:28 <monqy> brogue problems #1:
18:04:36 <elliott> (Oh! There's another one: ? is a handy one-page reference to all the keys you need.)
18:05:09 <monqy> I hear brogue early game is better in more recent versions so that complaint's "out the window", as they say
18:05:14 <monqy> at least until I try brogue again
18:05:32 <elliott> monqy: My early game deaths (all of them) haven't been to traps, at least.
18:05:42 <monqy> elliott: traps are only a problem late game
18:05:46 <elliott> monqy: They're mostly when you run into a goblin conjurer pack and get swamped by spectral blades and so on.
18:05:50 <monqy> have you gotten to brogue lategame?
18:05:51 <elliott> I thought you meant that was the early game complaint.
18:05:58 <monqy> you'll see what i mean
18:05:59 <elliott> I am not very good at roguelikes.
18:06:01 <monqy> assuming you get there
18:06:15 <elliott> Brogue is probably tougher for me than most other roguelikes because of the less... character-building-based focus.
18:06:28 <monqy> brogue has plenty of character building
18:06:36 <monqy> your character is your equipment
18:06:44 <elliott> What I meant was that you don't really have much of a fallback beyond your wits and what you've picked up.
18:06:55 <monqy> what more do you need
18:06:56 <elliott> At least, there seems to be less of an accrual of general power over time like you have in Crawl and so on.
18:07:02 <elliott> monqy: Well, I don't have wits, and the RNG hates me.
18:07:05 <monqy> you get plenty of power
18:07:12 <monqy> your power is what you picked up and enchanted etc
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18:16:53 <nooga> brogue is quite amusing
18:17:06 <nooga> that whole thing with build
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18:18:07 <nooga> but i don't usually go deeper than the dlevel 10 in the latest version
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19:08:38 <Taneb> @tell zzo38 I think ($) associates the wrong way in Prelude.Generalize
19:09:06 <Taneb> @tell zzo38 foo $ bar $ baz 10 doesn't work as it does with Prelude
19:09:48 <shachaf> kmc: Did you hear about the other edge cases involved with temporarily overwriting a page with a syscall instruction?
19:10:07 <shachaf> If the page is memory-mapped from a file, modifying it will turn it into a private mapping.
19:10:13 <shachaf> Which it'll stay even if you turn it back.
19:18:37 <shachaf> By "turn it back" I mean writing the old value back to the page, not unmapping and remapping, of course.
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19:32:12 <shachaf> kmc: So when are you moving here?
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20:06:42 <lambdabot> elliott said 12h 56m 31s ago: I like that "bug fix" in the modified C Deadfish interpreter.
20:08:25 <oerjan> @tell elliott Wait, my bug fix or the anonymous ip one?
20:10:47 <Taneb> @tell zzo38 Also, (!!) seems broken
20:13:02 <Taneb> @tell zzo38 Neither (!!) nor (!!!) work for infinite lists
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20:52:34 <zzo38> Is there such things in mathematics as the "algebraic infinity" where it is treated like an algebraic variable representing a nonzero real number, and then is considered greater than all real numbers in a comparison?
20:52:34 <lambdabot> zzo38: You have 4 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
20:52:46 <lambdabot> Taneb said 1h 44m 6s ago: I think ($) associates the wrong way in Prelude.Generalize
20:52:46 <lambdabot> Taneb said 1h 43m 39s ago: foo $ bar $ baz 10 doesn't work as it does with Prelude
20:52:46 <lambdabot> Taneb said 41m 58s ago: Also, (!!) seems broken
20:52:46 <lambdabot> Taneb said 39m 43s ago: Neither (!!) nor (!!!) work for infinite lists
20:53:18 <zzo38> Taneb: I know it associates the other way; this is on purpose. If (!!) is broken then thanks I will attempt to fix it
20:53:44 <Taneb> zzo38, can I ask why you want it to associate the other way?
20:54:28 <zzo38> If you want foo(bar(baz 10)) then write foo . bar $ baz 10 instead.
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20:55:26 <Taneb> That doesn't halt with Prelude.Generalize
20:55:36 <zzo38> Probably for !! it should be foldlM
20:55:51 <Taneb> I think you use foldl
20:55:55 <zzo38> Do you think that would fix it? At the time I wrote that I didn't know foldlM
20:56:33 <Taneb> It'd need to be able to short-ciruit
20:56:42 <Taneb> I'm afraid I don't know foldlM
20:57:03 <zzo38> foldlM :: (Foldable t, Monad m) => (a -> b -> m a) -> a -> t b -> m a -- Defined in Data.Foldable
21:01:24 <zzo38> Yes, using foldlM fixed it.
21:02:28 <zzo38> When I upload the next version, that, as well as other things, are fixed.
21:02:28 <Taneb> As you can tell, I'm actually using Prelude.Generalize
21:02:51 <zzo38> That is good because the more is use, the more things mistakes can be found and improvement suggested.
21:05:08 <zzo38> Notice also that lists are Copeanoid which allows many kind of codes to be shortened
21:09:40 <oerjan> <Taneb> zzo38, can I ask why you want it to associate the other way? <-- i recall Cale thinks it is more useful that way
21:11:36 <Sgeo> Is there a way to URL escape unicode codepoints?
21:13:06 <pikhq_> The accepted convention is to URL escape UTF-8 bytes.
21:13:22 <Sgeo> My attempt didn't work on this thing anyway
21:13:33 <Sgeo> Trying to mess with http://gryphonllc.com/irc/hulk.php?smash=a
21:14:24 <pikhq_> Correction, that's the defined behavior per RFC 3986.
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21:26:49 <oerjan> now capable of being awake and asleep at the same time!
21:27:10 <oerjan> conclusion: MDude is a dolphin.
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21:45:42 <MDude> click-click-wistle
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22:39:29 <oerjan> yay http://sdo.gsfc.nasa.gov/assets/mov/depot/APOD/latest_APOD_HMIC_FR.jpg
22:47:28 <calamari> that link didn't work, but see here http://sunearthday.nasa.gov/webcasts/nasaedge/
22:47:48 <oerjan> it worked a moment ago
22:48:40 <calamari> I'm assuming it was a venus transit image?
22:49:26 <oerjan> yes, it's supposedly updated every 15 mins
22:54:15 <calamari> my link is a live stream, it's good
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23:16:40 <Gregor> All the reviews for this hotel said the breakfast was bad.
23:16:46 <Gregor> Well, the reviews in English, anyway.
23:16:51 <Gregor> What the hell were they smoking?
23:17:11 <Gregor> Steamed buns, fried noodles, fresh steamed cabbage, various pickled vegetables.
23:17:16 <Gregor> The breakfast here is friggin' awesome.
23:17:36 <oerjan> the reviews did say _why_ it was bad, i hope?
23:17:36 <Gregor> I blame: White people.
23:17:43 <Gregor> No, just that they didn't like it.
23:18:21 <oerjan> assume it smells horrible, then.
23:19:22 * oerjan gets an inkling Gregor is slightly tired of these jokes
23:20:36 <Gregor> It's the painful truth to them that really hurts me ;)
23:22:54 * oerjan imagines it now: "Cursed by a rare condition, his dream of becoming a famous restaurant critic seemed beyond reach."
23:23:33 <calamari> ah you're the same time as perth, australia
23:23:58 <lambdabot> Local time for Gregor is Tue Jun 5 19:23:54
23:24:13 <calamari> for me, I add 3 hours and swap am/pm
23:24:26 <Gregor> I am in the exact opposite timezone of the one indicated there.
23:24:47 <oerjan> Gregor: so jetlag from hell?
23:25:00 <Gregor> Basically as bad as jetlag could conceivably be, yes.
23:25:07 <Gregor> But I ate breakfast for breakfast, so that's a good start.
23:25:15 <Gregor> Of course, I ate breakfast because I forgot to eat dinner last night ...
23:26:06 * oerjan currently is eating breakfast for dinner at 1:25 AM
23:26:56 <pikhq_> Gregor: It's pretty likely that those reviewers just weren't well-accustomed to non-Americanised Chinese food.
23:27:09 <oerjan> it's breakfast according to what i'm eating, but dinner according to how long since i slept
23:27:22 <Gregor> pikhq_: /Maybe/, but like, steamed buns? How can ANYONE not like good steamed buns. It's loony.
23:27:51 <ais523> oerjan: I actually have a name for the meal you eat between about 1 and 5 am, it's "antilunch"
23:27:51 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
23:27:54 <lambdabot> quintopia asked 23h 14m 27s ago: has anyone before written a program that uses larger offsets on longer tapes?
23:27:54 <lambdabot> shachaf said 23h 13m 1s ago: has anyone before quintopia written a program that uses larger offsets on longer tapes?
23:28:01 <pikhq_> Gregor: There are people in the US today that still think a Chinese buffet is "exotic".
23:28:08 <pikhq_> You may now be depressed.
23:28:12 <ais523> quintopia: I don't think so, but I don't see how it would help
23:28:18 <ais523> oerjan: this is not yet a standard English word, but I want to make one
23:28:30 <shachaf> ais523: Did my context help?
23:28:35 <Gregor> pikhq_: But those are not the people who travel to Beijing.
23:28:49 <ais523> shachaf: not really I was pretty amused at seeing the same question twice
23:28:59 <oerjan> so what is more appropriate for antilunch, pasta or antipasta?
23:29:07 <shachaf> ais523: Well, quintopia asked a question and someone mentioned there wasn't enough context.
23:29:31 <ais523> oerjan: the shops aren't open at antilunchtime, so you eat whatever you can actually prepare as a meal
23:29:35 <pikhq_> At least, not travel to Beijing and survive to their first meal. I'd imagine being extremely racist to the natives doesn't give you a long life expectancy. :P
23:29:53 <Gregor> pikhq_: It's hard to be racist to them when they don't understand a word you say.
23:30:09 <pikhq_> Gregor: I suspect they can infer what "CHING CHONG DING DONG" means.
23:30:48 <Gregor> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zulEMWj3sVA (In case you don't know what I'm referring to)
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23:36:25 <quintopia> ais523: more specifically, you expect to encounter smaller decoys first and bigger ones later, so it may be favorable to increase offset size with each decoy encountered
23:36:40 <quintopia> (for as long as that fact is true)
23:36:58 <ais523> I'm not sure that's the case (and I also think the way juggernought sets decoys is stupid)
23:38:01 <quintopia> well ffspg goes back and increase sizes of decoys, yes? so you'd see the small ones first and then the big oens
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23:38:36 <quintopia> i'd expect raising the offset size after, say, 2 decoys, could save you time on those two
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00:11:41 <Sgeo> There will be other transits in my lifetime, right? Not of venus, but... wait, hmm
00:12:27 <oerjan> i'd guess mercury would be more frequent?
00:12:56 <Sgeo> According to Wikipedia, yep
00:13:01 <Sgeo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transit_of_Mercury
00:13:02 <oerjan> "Transits of Mercury with respect to Earth are much more frequent than transits of Venus, with about 13 or 14 per century, in part because Mercury is closer to the Sun and orbits it more rapidly."
00:13:29 <Sgeo> Other planets don't have transits, right?
00:13:53 <oerjan> they don't tend to come between the earth and the sun, no
00:14:56 * oerjan str he saw the one in 2004, anyhow
00:15:33 <pikhq_> Sgeo: If they do, the end is not merely nigh.
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00:27:50 <oerjan> should be coming up here in a while
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00:28:04 <oerjan> i don't have any proper viewing equipment, alas
00:28:46 <quintopia> buy a mylar balloon or pop tarts or emergency blankets
00:28:55 <quintopia> tape it to binoculars or sunglasses
00:32:33 <oerjan> well of course i could have made it if i'd bothered to get such stuff in time :P
00:33:34 <oerjan> i suspect it's cloudy, anyhow
00:35:10 <zzo38> Currently I have: ecliptic longitude of Sun 75.72, ecliptic longitude of Mercury 87.08, ecliptic latitude of Mercury +1deg46arcmin.
00:35:52 <zzo38> I can give the right ascension and declination as well if wanted
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00:36:48 <zzo38> How do you mean the other planets do not have transits? They do, but they are hidden because the Sun is in the way.
00:38:48 <zzo38> Anyways, I have not seen even the transit of Mercury, because it would be dangerous to look at the sun
00:39:18 <quintopia> zzo38: have you constructed a solar filter for yourself? there is still time to look
00:39:56 <zzo38> quintopia: O, no I have not. How to do?
00:40:22 <quintopia> zzo38: can you get a mylar balloon or pop tarts at the grocery store?
00:42:25 <quintopia> o, well, the transit ends in 4 hours
00:42:38 <zzo38> I could still look at photographs and I have looked at the one mentioned above
00:43:17 <zzo38> I cannot see it anyways; there is stuff in the way
00:44:09 <oerjan> weird, grey, puffy stuff
00:44:49 <quintopia> zzo38: in about 6 hours after the transit ends, SDO will release a HD video of the whole thing
00:44:55 <zzo38> I mean like houses and so on
00:45:25 <oerjan> CURSE THIS WALL THAT HIDES THE VENUS TRANSIT FROM ME
00:50:12 <monqy> i'd look at the sun but then my eyes would hurt
00:50:23 <monqy> even looking out the window makes my eyes hurt wow
00:50:40 <zzo38> quintopia: I don't want HD video; HD wastes too much energy.
00:51:26 <zzo38> Not only that, but I do not have a wide screen TV set.
00:52:59 <zzo38> Ecliptic longitude of Venus 75.76 degrees and ecliptic latitude 1deg 47arcmin, so it is very close to Sun.
00:53:19 <zzo38> But sometimes it is on the other side and cannot be seen. This time it is on the closer side
00:56:20 <quintopia> zzo38: i'm sure people with release a downsampled version very quickly after it is released
00:58:52 <quintopia> zzo38: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdHM55XDhJ0
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01:14:24 <MDude> Well I guess that's a bit more impressive than the version my dad projected onto a wall with binoculars.
01:15:01 <MDude> It was still neat seeing it more in-person, though.
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01:46:26 <quintopia> !bfjoust poke http://sprunge.us/JORU
01:46:29 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_poke: 48.0
01:47:21 <quintopia> !bfjoust poke http://sprunge.us/ZFOf
01:47:25 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_poke: 48.4
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02:03:53 <MDude> Ok, now I'm connected again I think.
02:04:04 <MDude> I tihnk I made some kind of dirtbike emulator.
02:04:05 <MDude> http://entropedia.co.uk/generative_music_1.2_beta/#b64MzQw0DbQMwACE63izDwNjRJ9U007O0NDTS2NEq0SOzuTGt%2FEkgy94sKiEo0STU0A
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02:48:45 <zzo38> quintopia: Do you have a Theora version of the video which is also not HD?
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03:02:06 <ais523> "This opcode ANDs the contents of the A and X registers (without changing
03:02:08 <ais523> the contents of either register) and transfers the result to the stack
03:02:09 <ais523> pointer. It then ANDs that result with the contents of the high byte of
03:02:10 <ais523> the target address of the operand +1 and stores that final result in
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03:03:03 <zzo38> For what computer?
03:04:20 <ais523> oh, but not /always/, it seems to depend on the video behaviour
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03:17:38 <quintopia> !bfjoust test http://sprunge.us/GVHP
03:17:41 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_test: 46.7
03:18:06 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_test: 0.0
03:18:12 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/GVHP
03:18:15 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 47.1
03:20:05 <quintopia> well that double-check was more important than i though XD
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03:24:40 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/QPjQ
03:24:44 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 0.0
03:25:13 <zzo38> ais523: Why not always?
03:25:34 <ais523> zzo38: it's unclear, but seems to have something to do with the video system
03:25:46 <ais523> the instruction wasn't added to the CPU deliberately, it's what happens if you feed it particular invalid data
03:26:11 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/fjRh
03:26:14 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 0.0
03:26:24 <zzo38> But, isn't the CPU supposed to be separate from the video?
03:28:56 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/YILB
03:28:59 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 47.3
03:35:52 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/OHfC
03:35:55 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 48.3
03:54:35 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/QKbN
03:54:38 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 48.5
04:00:05 <tswett> Suppose a process has a file, A, open for appending. While that's true, I delete A. What happens?
04:00:25 <Sgeo_> "Clojure multimethods go further still to allow the dispatch value to be the result of an arbitrary function of the arguments."
04:00:35 <Sgeo_> Hmm, that's interesting
04:00:43 <tswett> Can the process still say "append to this file" just like it did before? Will the data simply be discarded immediately?
04:00:56 <Sgeo_> I think I'm starting to see Clojure as an interesting language crippled by being tied to the JVM
04:01:53 <ais523> <zzo38> But, isn't the CPU supposed to be separate from the video? <-- in those days there generally wasn't a separate GPU, so the video stuff ran on the CPU
04:02:07 <zzo38> What are multimethods?
04:02:32 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/bQiL
04:02:35 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 45.0
04:02:57 <Sgeo_> The way the page describes them, they're like CLOS's generic functions, except with more flexible dispatch
04:03:10 <Sgeo_> http://clojure.org/runtime_polymorphism
04:05:32 <oerjan> tswett: i vaguely recall it becomes an inode not referred from any directory and so is purged when the file is closed
04:06:17 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/JJIW
04:06:20 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 50.8
04:06:20 <tswett> Ah, that would make sense.
04:06:45 <tswett> Would it be possible for the process that has it open to create another link to it?
04:08:56 <oerjan> http://www.tutorialspoint.com/unix_system_calls/unlink.htm
04:09:10 <oerjan> i think that's the underlying system call
04:14:48 <oerjan> tswett: presumably you could create another hard link _before_ it's deleted, at least
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04:40:48 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/UUJa
04:40:52 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 51.2
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05:13:05 <quintopia> !bfjoust myndzi_slowrush_fixed >(+)*22>(-)*22(>++++++>------)*1>+>->->+(>[[-(+)*22[-]]+>[+(-)*22[+]]->][-]+)*21
05:13:08 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_myndzi_slowrush_fixed: 29.5
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05:15:07 <quintopia> @tell myndzi help us kill vibration by modifying slowrush to >(+)*22>(-)*22(>++++++>------)*1>+>->->+(>[[-(+)*22[-]]+>[+(-)*22[+]]->][-]+)*21
05:15:24 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_myndzi_slowrush_fixed: 0.0
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05:22:58 <HackEgo> canaima172422: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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05:56:53 <zzo38> asiekierka_: Did you add the XKCD variation of Deadfish? If so, why?
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06:18:40 <quintopia> @tell Gregor is possible to have egojsout stop printing lines of a round after 2000 (and put in a "load more lines" link)? it takes forever to load defense runs and most of the time the interesting stuff happens in the first 2000 cycles
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06:45:12 <ion> Max Payne 3: Dramatic Chilling Simulator http://youtu.be/eWMiIJ6B-7k
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07:15:03 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_impomatic_lessdumb: 0.0
07:17:26 <fizzie> How dumb is dumb is '<' is less dumb?
07:19:31 <quintopia> lessdumb used to have a higher score than dumb
07:19:58 <quintopia> but changes to the scoreboard had caused dumb to be beating lessdumb
07:30:29 <Sgeo> Why is Clojure interesting me?
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07:57:24 <zzo38> Can you show me what some of the documentations for Prelude.Generalize that you have written? I will add some of them on
07:57:37 <Taneb> zzo38, it's a bit skeletal at the moment
07:58:01 <Taneb> But I'll paste it somewhere
07:58:38 <Taneb> http://hpaste.org/69580
07:59:57 <Taneb> Also, I'm unsure if that's correct Haddock markup
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08:36:30 <Taneb> zzo38, haddock doesn't like something
08:37:37 <fizzie> Perhaps Haddock doesn't like you.
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08:50:57 <Sgeo> "If this were written as a function instead of a macro, we would have to pass #(Math/sin %) instead of simply Math/sin for the function."
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09:01:57 <Taneb> This is frustrating me
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09:11:56 <Sgeo> "java methods aren't first class objects"
09:12:00 * Sgeo bibbles insanely
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09:42:39 <Gregor> http://www.facebook.com/LawlabeeTheWallaby/posts/3450418413289 ; the latest in my Facebook-status novelization of my China trip.
09:43:46 <Taneb> Gregor, that is getting a Like
09:45:50 <ion> gregor: hehe
09:49:29 <Gregor> I'm afraid I've set the bar too high though X-D
09:49:32 <Gregor> I can't go up from here.
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10:06:22 <Sgeo> mroman, it feels inconsistent, and something I wish I didn't have to care about
10:06:46 <Sgeo> Although I guess it makes sense, but I'm not exactly looking for Java interop
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10:27:17 <Sgeo> Is it just me, or would Clojure be great if it weren't for the whole Java interoperability thing?
10:37:23 <mroman> Clojure would be great if it hadn't anything to do with java
10:37:30 <mroman> i.e not running on jvm an such.
10:38:42 <Sgeo> I don't think the JVM's the bad part, it's more that it tries to match the JVM's model so that it works with Java
10:39:11 <Sgeo> If it ignored Java interop yet ran on the JVM, I think it would still be able to do things like TCO and condition system (I might be mistaken)
11:14:31 <fizzie> JVM has all kinds of curious restrictions on the bytecode, I'm not entirely certain that would be completely true.
11:15:59 <fizzie> If you can get somewhere via multiple branches, all the branches must provably have the same stack effect. and there's no "tail-invoke" opcode.
11:17:34 <fizzie> The latter could I guess be workarounded by having your entire program be a single JVM function, but I think that might hit some other limitations.
11:18:38 <fizzie> At least it would limit all programs to be less than 64k bytes.
11:19:03 <fizzie> (That's the maximum size for the code of a method.)
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13:16:26 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
13:35:40 <elliott> > compare "Deadfish~" "Deadfish x"
13:35:50 <elliott> > compare "Deadfish~" "Deadfishx"
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13:38:25 <ion> > sort "hi"
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13:42:26 <fizzie> A sortino is the fundamental particle of sorting algorithms.
13:44:27 <ion> > sort "alphabetsoup"
13:44:41 <ion> > sort "discostu"
13:46:44 <olsner> sortinos come in a range of bogosities, from the bogosortino to the quicksortino
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13:48:42 <elliott> atehwa: Out of curiosity, do you still have the ability/time/will to administrate the lang@esoteric.sange.fi mailing list? Someone has proposed reviving it on the wiki.
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14:10:40 <elliott> shachaf: "I would much rather write in C/pythonic notation and have Haskell figure out its monadic translation by itself. It does figure out the types, why not monads?"
14:11:11 <elliott> Brought to you by the author of the "Monad" HaskellWiki page!
14:16:40 <ion> I would much rather write in APL/Java notation.
14:16:50 * ion reads that page.
14:16:57 <elliott> APL/Java sounds bad enough that it could probably be great.
14:17:41 <elliott> ion: The best part is that the only monad it describes is Identity.
14:17:57 <ion> There are other monads than Identity, huh?
14:19:08 <ion> The essence of monad is thus separation of composition timeline from the composed computation's execution timeline
14:20:17 <elliott> ion: You forgot the ITALICS.
14:20:45 <elliott> Anyone who uses bold italics exclusively when just bold will do is terrible. That is my law.
14:22:15 <ion> He also uses both simultaneously.
14:22:34 <elliott> Bold italics is text that is both bold and italic.
14:22:57 <ion> Whoops, i missed the first “bold” in your line.
14:22:59 <olsner> apparently the combination of APL and Java is not completely unexplored
14:23:14 <elliott> ion: No, using bold when just italics would do is probably another sin.
14:23:18 <elliott> olsner: I think J has a Java interface.
14:23:28 <olsner> I also found a couple of papers about "Using an APL approach with Java" and "An interface between Java and APL"
14:23:47 <olsner> also, http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9795215/apl-and-java-interface
14:29:49 <elliott> @pl [(y, IM.toAscList n) | (y, n) <- IM.toAscList m]
14:29:49 <lambdabot> [(y, IM.toAscList n) | (y, n) <- IM.toAscList m]
14:29:53 <elliott> @undo [(y, IM.toAscList n) | (y, n) <- IM.toAscList m]
14:29:53 <lambdabot> concatMap (\ (y, n) -> [(y, IM.toAscList n)]) IM.toAscList m
14:29:57 <elliott> @. pl undo [(y, IM.toAscList n) | (y, n) <- IM.toAscList m]
14:30:18 <elliott> @pl concatMap (\ (y, n) -> [(y, IM.toAscList n)]) (IM.toAscList m)
14:30:18 <lambdabot> uncurry (flip flip [] . ((:) .) . (. IM.toAscList) . (,)) =<< IM.toAscList m
14:43:41 <elliott> Backup to self: http://sprunge.us/jPKh
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14:58:23 <ion> elliott: Manual escape sequences are eeeevyl.
14:58:37 <elliott> ion: Have you seen the curses API recently?
14:59:21 <ion> Is http://hackage.haskell.org/package/terminfo-0.3.2.3 horrible? (A sincere question, i haven’t looked.)
14:59:48 <elliott> I don't know, but terminfo is a Bad Idea for my purposes.
15:00:18 <elliott> Manual escape sequences are much better.
15:00:47 <nortti> yeah. everything should support ANSI escape codes
15:01:46 <elliott> ion: In particular, using terminfo and such has the tendency to mess up ttyrecs.
15:02:00 <elliott> Because, e.g. rxvt's terminfo stuff likes to use escape sequences that don't work on xterm.
15:02:10 <elliott> So, e.g. all the dark grey text shows up as black on xterm.
15:02:19 <elliott> Even though there's a way to show dark grey text that works on both.
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15:10:28 <ion> If you’re building on a pile of ancient crap that would need an entire rewrite, why not make a good architecture from the very beginning? The storing of ttyrecs doesn’t need to have *anything* to do with that is presented to the user’s big 256-color Unicode terminal or web tiles interface.
15:11:17 <ion> I agree, manual escape codes for the lowest common denominator might be the way to go with ttyrecs.
15:13:16 <Taneb> If you're building on a pile of ancient crap, the archaeologists and anthropologist might get angry.
15:13:27 <Taneb> Or the paleontologists, depending on how ancient the crap is.
15:13:57 <ion> On the other hand, the scatologists might appreciate your efforts.
15:15:20 <elliott> ion: People still use termcast, regardless of whether it's the best way to present replays and so on.
15:15:53 <elliott> ion: More importantly, there's only about 40-50 lines of my program that care about ANSI escape codes. Why bother using a library?
15:16:04 <elliott> Everything supports ANSI escapes, and they're trivial to output.
15:16:09 <ion> So make one of the pluggable “interfaces” one that feeds the same data to a termcast server as to a ttyrec file. :-P
15:16:29 <elliott> ion: Feel free to send a patch. It must be less than 50 lines.
15:16:59 <elliott> ion: (Preferably it would also include a URL to a modern terminal emulator that does not support basic ANSI escape codes.)
15:17:42 <nortti> does widows command line window support ANSI?
15:17:59 <elliott> There's an ANSI.SYS thing.
15:18:11 <elliott> But I don't think Windows supports terminfo, either!
15:18:23 <nortti> but wasn't ANSI.SYS for dos
15:18:23 <ion> AJAX doesn’t support ANSI natively.
15:18:33 <elliott> ion: That is not a terminal emulator.
15:19:35 <nortti> Deewiant: but doesn't that require importing different headers or something?
15:19:37 <elliott> Deewiant: curses has the curses API.
15:19:55 <nortti> elliott: what language are you using?
15:20:03 <elliott> Deewiant: Anyway, I can trivially make something that draws the terminal via SDL or such, given my API.
15:20:19 <Deewiant> It's the implementation that's annoying, with it calling exit() on some errors and such.
15:22:35 <elliott> @hoogle [(a,[(b,c)])] -> [((a,b),c)]
15:22:45 <elliott> Deewiant: You should implement that for me! ^
15:23:18 <elliott> \xs -> concatMap (\(x,ys) -> map (\(y,v) -> ((x,y),v)) ys) -- so ugly. :(
15:23:25 <Deewiant> ?ty \xs -> [ ((a,b),c) | (a,ys) <- xs, (b,c) <- ys ]
15:23:26 <lambdabot> forall t t1 t2. [(t, [(t1, t2)])] -> [((t, t1), t2)]
15:23:32 <lambdabot> Prelude map :: (a -> b) -> [a] -> [b]
15:23:32 <lambdabot> Data.List map :: (a -> b) -> [a] -> [b]
15:23:32 <lambdabot> Prelude mapM :: Monad m => (a -> m b) -> [a] -> m [b]
15:23:39 <elliott> @hoogle (a -> b -> c) -> (b -> a -> c)
15:23:39 <lambdabot> Prelude flip :: (a -> b -> c) -> b -> a -> c
15:23:40 <lambdabot> Data.Function flip :: (a -> b -> c) -> b -> a -> c
15:23:40 <lambdabot> Data.IntMap fold :: (a -> b -> b) -> b -> IntMap a -> b
15:27:09 <elliott> ion: http://sprunge.us/TeiN -- the only place that deals with ANSI stuff is renderActions, which is fairly ugly, but I'm going to rewrite it to be a bit less ugly.
15:28:04 <elliott> And you could just as easily write, e.g. renderActionsSDL :: [Action] -> IO ().
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15:29:41 <elliott> Actually you wouldn't want to use [Action] there.
15:33:11 <elliott> ion: So what reason is there to avoid ANSI escapes, anyway?
15:36:47 <Taneb> http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/acme-colosson/0.1/doc/html/Acme-Colosson.html
15:39:28 <Taneb> I may make Numberwang into a fully fledged joke language
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15:44:31 <elliott> Backup to self: http://sprunge.us/EiYY (What's version control?)
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15:58:59 <elliott> shachaf: Wait, does autopickup actually *save turns* in NetHack?
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16:09:13 <elliott> @ask ais523 Did you fix that NetHack 4 message fix yet? :(
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16:10:50 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/PSEi
16:10:53 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 48.2
16:11:32 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/UUJa
16:11:36 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 51.4
16:13:38 <quintopia> Gregor: schoolchidren wanted pictures with me when i was in china. what does this say about the differences between us?
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16:43:06 <elliott_> fizzie: You know stuff that futzes with the terminal and then puts it back?
16:43:09 <elliott_> fizzie: How do they reset the colour?
16:43:27 <elliott_> Oh, just by switching to the alternate screen stuff?
16:45:11 <fizzie> That, maybe, or DECSC/DECRC, "save/restore current state (cursor coordinates, attributes, character sets); \e7 and \e8.
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16:47:18 <elliott_> fizzie: Right. I think I'd like to use the alternate screen anyway, though.
16:47:28 <elliott_> Is that guaranteed to be in any particular state when you switch to it?
16:48:45 <fizzie> Well, it's a common thing to do. If you were doing terminfo, it would be the 'smcup' (start) and 'rmcup' (stop) properties. I would think it could be in any sort of state.
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16:50:14 <Gregor> <quintopia> Gregor: schoolchidren wanted pictures with me when i was in china. what does this say about the differences between us? // Nothing good for you, I'm afraid.
16:50:24 <elliott_> fizzie: So there's no fairly-reliable cross-terminal way to use it?
16:50:48 <fizzie> \E[?1049h and \E[r\E[?1049l for my rxvt-unicode, and I think it's the same for xterm and anything else that's "modern".
16:51:00 <elliott_> What does that do on the console?
16:52:46 <fizzie> \E[r seems to be a "reset scrolling region to default". console_codes(4) doesn't list 1049 in the list of DECSET/DECRST stuffs it supports, so perhaps nothing.
16:53:57 <elliott_> So how does stuff go to the alternate screen on the console? Or is that not a thing you can do?
16:54:04 <nortti> for me it only moves cursor to 1,1
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16:54:17 <fizzie> I don't think it has an alternate screen, no.
16:54:42 <fizzie> There's no smcup/rmcup in my 'linux' terminfo entry.
16:54:54 <elliott_> fizzie: So how does vi reset the colours on the console? I guess the \e7 and \e8 things.
16:54:59 <elliott_> (Is that really \e7 and not \e[7?)
16:55:19 <elliott_> It upsets me a bit that you have to rely on some internal piece of state to do this.
16:55:26 <elliott_> I mean, what if I want to do another \e7 later???
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16:56:00 <fizzie> Perhaps you'd better not want to.
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16:57:36 <fizzie> It's also not perfectly clear how much state \e7 / \e8 save/restore. Seems to depend a bit on the terminal.
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17:01:49 <fizzie> FWIW, screen's "alternate screen" sequences are also \E[?1049h and \E[?1049h, so those seem quite widespread. (It lacks the rxvt-unicode scrolling region reset, but certainly doing that won't *hurt*. Of course if you don't change it, it's probably not necessary either.)
17:02:38 <nortti> on fbcon it seems that \e7 saves cursor position and colours
17:03:49 <fizzie> It seems to save colours also on urxvt.
17:03:59 <nortti> how do those "alternate screen" sequences work?
17:04:17 <fizzie> "Xterm maintains two screen buffers. The normal screen buffer allows you to scroll back to view saved lines of output up to the maximum set by the saveLines resource. The alternate screen buffer is exactly as large as the display, contains no additional saved lines. When the alternate screen buffer is active, you cannot scroll back to view saved lines."
17:04:23 <fizzie> They enable and disable that.
17:05:37 <fizzie> It's meant for full-screen terminal applications that want to do their stuffs, yet not mess with whatever you've got going on in your terminal. Plus scrolling around when that's on is just confusing, perhaps.
17:06:33 <fizzie> (To be strict, 1047 enables/disables the alternate screen, 1048 does the same as \e7 and \e8, and 1049 combines both, so you need just one sequence to get back.)
17:06:56 <elliott_> nortti: Run vi. Quit. Notice the lack of vi screen in between two shell lines
17:08:19 <nortti> elliott_: well I don't have X handy right now
17:09:59 <fizzie> nortti: You can run it inside screen if you want to taste the power.
17:10:09 <nortti> fizzie: I still see it
17:10:28 <fizzie> Apparently. Just tested.
17:10:43 <fizzie> Well, then; maybe screen doesn't bother emulating it when it's not hardwaristically supported. Funny, though.
17:10:58 <fizzie> If set to on, "alternate screen" support is enabled in virtual terminals, just like in xterm. Initial setting is `off'.
17:11:02 <fizzie> Oh, it's just an option.
17:11:56 <fizzie> You can turn it on temporarily with ^A:altscreen on
17:12:03 <fizzie> Seemed to work for me.
17:12:19 <fizzie> It'll say "will do alternate screen switching".
17:13:05 <fizzie> Well, I didn't, in Linux console, under screen, with :altscreen on. Don't know what's up with that.
17:13:39 <fizzie> Maybe you could try vim or something, if that's not your vi. Or just plain echo -e'ing those escapades.
17:13:46 <nortti> got X running. I see it even in xterm
17:14:05 <nortti> oh. my vi is busybox vi
17:14:26 <fizzie> It perhaps doesn't bother with anything so bourgeoisie.
17:15:32 <shachaf> elliott_: Yes, autopickup actually saves turns.
17:15:38 <shachaf> It's ridiculous, isn't it?
17:17:51 <shachaf> elliott_: Haven't you heard that automatic things are time-savers?
17:18:23 <elliott_> shachaf: I think I will go back to playing Crawl.
17:18:36 <elliott_> (You should play Crawl. I'd watch and laugh at you!)
17:18:38 <shachaf> elliott_: You gotta ascend at least once, man!
17:19:09 <elliott_> "If pickup_types is left as all, then autopickup can be used whenever it is necessary to pick up items on a teleport trap or hole (for example, in Sokoban) where the player would otherwise not have a chance to pick up the items before being whisked away."
17:21:41 <elliott_> 18:21 <Sequell> 551 games for shachaf: 551x cao
17:21:45 <elliott_> shachaf: You play on the Wrong Server.
17:24:06 <elliott_> fizzie: So, uh, that escape isn't working for me.
17:24:10 <elliott_> ( execWriter $ tell "\ESC[0m\ESC[2J\ESC[?1049h" >> switchAll plainAttribs
17:24:17 <elliott_> -- yet it just uses the normal screen.
17:27:43 <quintopia> Gregor: why are you in china anyway?
17:32:36 <Gregor> quintopia: I've been Shanghai'd to Beijing.
17:32:59 <quintopia> Gregor: there are worse places. why?
17:33:27 <fizzie> elliott_: I'unno. It works in this urxvt with echo -e '\e[?1049hfoo' and goes back with echo -e '\e[?1049l properly.
17:33:33 <Gregor> quintopia: Conference.
17:34:04 <elliott_> fizzie: Oh, that actually works.
17:34:11 <elliott_> I was just hallucinimating that it wasn't.
17:34:15 <Gregor> quintopia: Hosting in what sense >_>
17:34:19 <Gregor> quintopia: It's PLDI and ECOOP.
17:34:42 <quintopia> when must you take your last chinese massage and return home?
17:37:16 <elliott_> quintopia: is yuore' scorin g done
17:40:23 <quintopia> elliott_: no. i prefer my scoring medium rare.
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18:47:06 <ion> Dumbest Girls Ever Steal Girl Scout Money from a 9 year old http://youtu.be/CAcLGSFMFiQ
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19:01:00 <Phantom__Hoover> OK Psychonauts' absolutely terrible controls have actually reached the point that I can't progress due to having no idea which key changes page in the inventory.
19:01:30 <Phantom__Hoover> I *think* it said 'z' but the message went away too quickly to be sure.
19:01:50 <shachaf> Phantom__Hoover: It's "2".
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19:02:12 <shachaf> And it means you can't switch straight to abilities from inventory anymore?
19:02:41 <shachaf> Which levelplacething are you at?
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19:08:39 <shachaf> ion: Did you play Psychonauts?
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19:10:43 <kmc> did i what?
19:11:38 <Phantom___Hoover> shachaf, I keep falling off though because I'm impatient and always use levitate to move around.
19:11:40 <kmc> i hear it's good
19:11:52 <shachaf> You can get it at http://www.humblebundle.com/
19:12:01 <shachaf> They even have a GNU/X11/Linux version.
19:12:14 <quintopia> i never had trouble with that stuff last time i played it
19:12:21 <olsner> GNU/X11, because X11 is only the kernel
19:12:36 <shachaf> Phantom___Hoover: So did I.
19:12:49 <ion> shachaf: Yeah, i had Psychonauts and Amnesia even before the HB.
19:13:15 <ion> I’ve loved Amnesia, Psychonauts and Bastion. I have yet to try the other two.
19:13:26 <shachaf> I had Psychonauts and I think Bastion before the HB.
19:13:44 <shachaf> But last time I tried Bastion it seemed uninteresting.
19:13:49 <shachaf> Admittedly it was only for a few minutes.
19:14:24 <Taneb> I have Amnesia on Steam
19:14:49 <ion> It seems to have a story that is revealed bit by bit, and i love how beautiful it looks and sounds.
19:14:52 <Taneb> It doesn't like my video card or something
19:14:54 <ion> Bastion, that is.
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19:15:24 <ion> Amnesia has an amazing atmosphere. It should preferably be played in a dark room with headphones. :-)
19:15:32 <Taneb> I've been told that, yeah
19:16:08 <kmc> "it should be played in a dark room with headphones while coming up on shrooms"
19:17:26 <Sgeo> kmc, do you have thoughts on Clojure?
19:17:37 <shachaf> Phantom__Hoover: Lotsa things?
19:17:55 <Phantom__Hoover> Even if you're invisible those agents will still catch you.
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19:18:56 <shachaf> Phantom__Hoover: They're agents! They're extremely competent, as you can tell.
19:19:21 <kmc> Sgeo: have used it only a little bit
19:19:24 <quintopia> it's in the super paranoid milkman's mind. invisibility is the art of making yourself very uninteresting, but a paranoid mind can't be fooled by such tricks
19:19:27 <kmc> seems pretty cool
19:19:49 <kmc> i like metaprogramming, i like lisps, and clojure is more likely than other lisps to be something you can use on "real" projects
19:20:08 <kmc> the main clojure guy really Gets It in terms of the relationship between functional and imperative programming
19:20:17 <Sgeo> To me, Java interop seems to poison it though
19:20:23 <kmc> he has a talk about the difference between identity, value, and state
19:20:34 <kmc> which is something clojure and haskell get right, and practically every other languages gets wrong
19:20:44 <kmc> clojure and haskell are technologically very different but philosophically close
19:20:55 <kmc> Sgeo: why is having that option a bad thing?
19:21:22 <Sgeo> It causes the language to be less useful
19:21:25 <Sgeo> erm, not useful
19:21:32 <Sgeo> Beautiful. It makes it less beautiful
19:21:42 <Sgeo> Try (map Math/sin [0 1 2 3])
19:21:59 <Sgeo> Then (map #(Math/sin %) [0 1 2 3])
19:23:13 <kmc> one of these does not work?
19:23:49 <Sgeo> The first does not.
19:24:12 <shachaf> I like how in JavaScript you can't say "var foo = console.log; foo(5);"
19:24:23 <shachaf> You can say foo = console.log.bind(console) or something like that, though.
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19:25:22 <ion> Ah, i was bitten by an equivalent problem just recently.
19:25:30 <kmc> Sgeo: that sucks :/
19:25:37 <kmc> is there a fundamental reason for that
19:25:39 <ion> I expected var foo = bar.baz; foo(…) to work.
19:25:53 <shachaf> (Maybe you knew why before too.)
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19:26:11 <shachaf> ion: Do you like how "eval(...);" isn't the same as "(5,eval)(...);"?
19:26:16 <ion> Actually, i still don’t know *why*. :-P
19:26:18 <kmc> only a silly egghead FP academic would expect that to work
19:26:29 <ion> shachaf: I like how ",,," == new Array(4)
19:26:45 <shachaf> ion: Because when you say foo.bar(), "this" is set to foo in bar's evaluation context thing.
19:27:23 <ion> shachaf: Yeah, i figured as much, but that just explain the problem, not *why*. :-P
19:27:33 <shachaf> Well, how would you do it?
19:27:36 <Sgeo> kmc, I think it's due to Math/sin being a Java static method?
19:27:50 <shachaf> Keeping in mind JS's prototypical OO thing and all that.
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19:28:11 <kmc> Sgeo: but why shouldn't those be callable like functions
19:28:13 <ion> shachaf: I haven’t actually thought about this that thorougly.
19:28:43 <kmc> does it go against some philosophical rule of Clojure, or is there some implementation difficulty, or they just haven't got around to making it work?
19:29:45 <shachaf> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2208865/how-do-i-pass-a-static-method-to-comp-in-clojure
19:30:21 <Sgeo> I'm guessing it goes against the philisophical rule of being a slave to easy Java interop
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19:31:46 <kmc> wait i'm confused
19:31:55 <kmc> are you saying they care too little about java interop to make this work?
19:31:56 <kmc> or too much?
19:32:02 <kmc> and in the latter case, how does that make any sense
19:32:53 <Sgeo> Too much... or maybe it's an efficiency thing? I don't actually know
19:32:58 <Sgeo> I'm not a Clojure designer
19:33:06 <Sgeo> #clojure does exist
19:33:31 <kmc> if they cared too much about java interop, then wouldn't they work hard to make java methods be first-class in clojure?
19:34:13 <Sgeo> kmc, do I have any chance of getting you to ask in #clojure , because I'm curious too
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19:36:58 <fizzie> shachaf: And if your browser isn't quite new enough to say console.log.bind(console), fortunately you can say something as obvious as http://p.zem.fi/jsbind to almost make it work except not really with the same semantics.
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19:38:07 <kmc> but you could ask in #clojure ;P
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19:38:56 <Sgeo> <gtrak> Sgeo: clojure functions are each actually classes, java methods are just bytecode
19:42:39 <kmc> my question isn't so much "why are they different" as "why can't one be implicitly converted to the other"
19:45:28 <Sgeo> kmc, is this an adequate way to ask your question? <Sgeo> gtrak, is it not possible to, when Clojure sees a Java method being used in a context where a clojure function is expected, implictly make a clojure function or something like that?
19:46:51 <Sgeo> <amalloy> Sgeo: sorta
19:46:51 <Sgeo> <gtrak> Sgeo: it's very easy to do
19:46:51 <Sgeo> <gtrak> ,(#(.toString "hello"))
19:46:51 <Sgeo> <amalloy> what function does ".foo" represent? (fn [x] (.foo x))? or (fn [x y] (.foo x y))? or...
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19:50:27 <shachaf> fizzie: Or just var log = function() { return console.log.apply(console, arguments); };
19:51:58 <Sgeo> <amalloy> hiredman: at some point we talked for a few minutes about how you could automatically turn Foo/bar into a function, if it's used in a context where it can't be anything else. i couldn't remember if you'd actually done it
19:51:58 <Sgeo> <hiredman> definitely not
19:51:58 <Sgeo> * johnmn3 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
19:51:58 <Sgeo> <hiredman> definitely doable
19:52:20 <shachaf> Phantom__Hoover: Not everyone but lots of people/things.
19:52:29 <shachaf> Do you mean in general or inside the milkworld?
19:56:22 <Sgeo> WTF did I just listen to?
19:56:45 <Sgeo> http://objects.activeworlds.com/aw/sounds/sbtechno4.mp3
19:56:59 <shachaf> Sgeo: You just listened to:
19:57:04 <shachaf> http://objects.activeworlds.com/aw/sounds/sbtechno4.mp3
19:57:28 <shachaf> Phantom__Hoover: Isn't Dr. Loboto great?
19:57:36 <shachaf> I wish he was *my* doctor.
19:57:58 <shachaf> (I was surprised to discover that Dr. Loboto was referred to as "he".)
19:58:35 <quintopia> except for the milo spy german dude
19:58:45 <shachaf> I don't think Dr. Loboto is psychic?
19:59:20 <Sgeo> quintopia, I needed to adjust my volume, at the volume it was at, it was screechy
19:59:31 <Taneb> Does anyone know how Haddock plays with fixity declarations for class methods?
20:00:06 <shachaf> Phantom__Hoover: What rank are you at?
20:00:23 <shachaf> I have it "on goode authority" that you want to get to at least 90 before The Big Fight.
20:00:53 <quintopia> Phantom__Hoover: belay that authority. i had no trouble beating the game with ~60/65 exp
20:01:20 <quintopia> you don't need regeneration or whatever. i never got it.
20:01:36 <quintopia> you do need to sleep before you fight the butcher the first time
20:01:37 <shachaf> quintopia is probably right.
20:02:08 <quintopia> he's impossible to beat if you've been playing for 8 hours and been up for 18
20:02:34 <shachaf> "PS One of the self-funded improvements we made to the game was fixing some bugs that made Meat Circus harder than it was meant to be. So please give the new build a try! :)"
20:07:05 <Phantom__Hoover> I'm not completely sure the designers accounted for how floaty the levitation jump is.
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20:07:54 <shachaf> Phantom__Hoover: One of the least pleasant parts of the game was the levitation-training-course. :-(
20:19:09 <quintopia> once you learn it it becomes super handy
20:27:48 <Sgeo> Phantom__Hoover, besides the stupidity of some people in #clojure, and the excessive Java focus, are there any big problems with Clojure?
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20:38:49 <Vorpal> ah, what a beautiful sunset. I should get my camera out. Might need HDR to do it justice though.
20:44:22 <Vorpal> shachaf, hm I quite liked that level
20:44:50 <fizzie> Vorpal: Speaking of which, I panoramizzed Norway quite a bit, I don't think I mentioned. Though I don't have a selection handy.
20:45:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, I found that my camera battery was not charged, so no photography for me atm
20:45:26 <Vorpal> (and it isn't just an AA, it is a custom form factor)
20:45:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, nothing uploaded?
20:46:00 <Vorpal> I would love to see some panoramas
20:46:01 <fizzie> Oh, there's quite a pile, I just don't have a good selection.
20:46:08 <fizzie> http://xn--nxa.zem.fi/g2/d/20550-1/d07-133622-133717.jpg is I think kinda fancy, even though the waves are all messed up for the obvious reason, and I left the tripod in the car so the horizon is kinda snakey.
20:46:14 <fizzie> But it's got that snow+sand thing going on.
20:46:21 <fizzie> Well, snow+sand+sea thing.
20:46:49 <Vorpal> fizzie, hugin can straighten horizons quite well
20:47:33 <fizzie> Well, I mean, the horizon is straight, I meant the black border thing, since I didn't want to clip out too much.
20:47:48 <Vorpal> ah right, take two passes, one high and the other low
20:47:48 <fizzie> Around Easter, this particular one was April 7th.
20:48:22 <Vorpal> also, maybe less zoomed in would have helped with the waves, reducing the number of cuts at least
20:48:41 <Vorpal> what sort of camera did you use?
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20:50:06 <Vorpal> <Sgeo> quintopia, I needed to adjust my volume, at the volume it was at, it was screechy <-- I did have to play around with the levels, but mostly the issue I had was that the music was way too loud compared to the voice
20:50:07 <ion> One of the least pleasant parts of the game was the meat circus, but since then Tim Schafer has said “One of the self-funded improvements we made to the game was fixing some bugs that made Meat Circus harder than it was meant to be. So please give the new build a try! :)”
20:50:28 <shachaf> Vorpal: You should tell elliott that Psychonauts is good!
20:50:36 <shachaf> Vorpal: Also encourage Phantom__Hoover.
20:50:42 <shachaf> Phantom__Hoover: Which part is obnoxiously hard?
20:50:43 <Vorpal> ion, I haven't got to meat circus yet, though I think I'm just before it.
20:50:57 <fizzie> The only sort I have, it's this "compact-zoom" thing. Some of them do have two passes for higher vertical FOV. I'll try to find some others.
20:51:07 <Vorpal> ion, is it just after the boss battle against the tank (not the tank in the mind that is, the other tank)?
20:51:24 <ion> Hmm, i don’t remember exactly.
20:51:41 <shachaf> There might be a short thing beforehand but it's the next major level.
20:51:42 <Phantom__Hoover> shachaf, I'm at Gloria's Theatre, but I'm hemorrhaging health.
20:51:47 <Vorpal> shachaf, yeah then I last saved just before that boss battle
20:51:58 <shachaf> Phantom__Hoover: Because of those undestructible creatures that breathe fire at you?
20:52:17 <Vorpal> shachaf, since I'm a completionist I'm unlikely to continue playing for a while :P
20:52:26 <Vorpal> well, the story that is
20:52:37 <Vorpal> I will try to pick up everything that I missed, cobwebs and so on
20:52:51 <shachaf> The point where you can't get back to the real world.
20:52:55 <Phantom__Hoover> <shachaf> Phantom__Hoover: Because of those undestructible creatures that breathe fire at you?
20:53:05 <shachaf> Vorpal: Note that you *can* get back to other minds past that point.
20:53:14 <Phantom__Hoover> The censors at the top of stairs on narrow, short catwalks aren't helping either,.
20:53:17 <Vorpal> shachaf, exactly, since it said "autosaving: point of no return" I went like "Okaaaaay..."
20:53:36 <shachaf> So go finish the scavenger hunt and find all the cards and such.
20:53:39 <Vorpal> shachaf, well, I would need to go buy cores and so on
20:53:44 <shachaf> But you don't need to worry about cobwebs, I don't think.
20:53:59 <Vorpal> how would you cash them in for levels then?
20:54:03 <shachaf> Vorpal: If I remember correctly you don't need to buy cores anymore past that point.
20:54:10 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, just psi blast them?
20:54:28 <fizzie> Vorpal: No. It's the sort of midway-but-not-quite. Built-in zoom lens that goes up to... "12x" or some-such, 432mm in 35mm-equiv terms. But the sensor is still tiny, so it's very noisy especially at ISO > 100.
20:55:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, similar to my camera then, except mine is only really noisy above ISO 200
20:55:19 <Vorpal> and it is 10 years old or so by now
20:55:25 <shachaf> Vorpal: Oh, and the brains.
20:55:29 <shachaf> Find all the brains, maybe
20:55:35 <Vorpal> shachaf, right, I'm missing one brain still
20:55:45 <Vorpal> that blue guy who blasted squirrels
20:55:50 <Vorpal> no clue where his brain is
20:56:14 <Vorpal> shachaf, err probably, I suck at remembering names (even in real life)
20:56:43 <shachaf> The first one who loses his brain?
20:56:57 <ion> David Rees and Blackwing Pencils: Artisanal Pencil Sharpening http://youtu.be/spMaP-_Cq_8
20:57:20 <shachaf> I think that one was tricky.
20:57:30 <Vorpal> shachaf, he blasted some squirrels if you talked to him at one point earlier.
20:58:01 <Vorpal> anyway where was that brain
20:58:22 <shachaf> In the place with the rats.
20:58:36 <fizzie> Vorpal: Hmm, here's another. It's taken by walking around this thing http://zem.fi/g2/d/20784-2/d08-074718-p1120942.jpg so there's a bit of parallax-caused "chain cuts off in air" sort of stuff, but not too much: http://zem.fi/g2/d/20789-1/d08-074812-074922.jpg
20:58:49 <Vorpal> shachaf, so a huge section of the tower then?
20:58:53 <Vorpal> not a lot of help that
20:59:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, you should have climbed onto the top of it
20:59:53 <fizzie> I think there was a locked hatch. (Or maybe I just didn't feel like it.)
20:59:58 <shachaf> Vorpal: I don't remember exactly.
21:00:16 <shachaf> I assume I can look it up as well as you can...
21:00:20 <ion> fizzie: Pretty. Hugin? I’d suggest straightening the horizont.
21:00:28 <ion> It’s quite easy with Hugin.
21:00:30 <Vorpal> hm wasn't the latest photoshop version supposed to have some sort of fancy thing that filled in missing stuff based on surrounding image areas, and that even worked quite well
21:00:36 <Vorpal> seem to remember hearing about that
21:00:53 <Vorpal> might be useful with panoramas
21:01:35 <fizzie> Vorpal: It has that thing, yes. And Gimp has that "Resynthesizer" plugin, which... works less well.
21:01:42 <fizzie> (But it does work not too shabbily sometimes.)
21:01:45 <Vorpal> shachaf, well I could just google it and find some walkthrough, but using a walkthrough just feels like failing the game to me
21:02:14 <fizzie> ion: It's gone through one iteration of the "Straighten" button already. I had too many of these to join to actually really look at the output, and people wanted to see the photos already.
21:02:24 <shachaf> Vorpal: What's the difference between that and asking on IRC?
21:02:33 <shachaf> Vorpal: Being a completionistperson seems like pain enough to me, anyway.
21:02:48 <Vorpal> shachaf, at least I don't risk seeing anything else that would be a spoiler by asking on IRC :P
21:02:52 <ion> I’m not sure the straighten button actually straightens the horizon. You need to add some control points for that.
21:03:00 <shachaf> Vorpal: Ah, I see. You want me to look it up and paste it in here?
21:03:00 <Vorpal> photoshop is so confusing nowdays, they have all sorts of different editions it seems...
21:03:03 <ion> And then just optimize as usual.
21:03:08 <Vorpal> shachaf, that would be very kind
21:03:35 <shachaf> "Dogen's Brain: In the large tower, from the left end of the lowest wooden walkway around the rim, jump and float along the wall to a small crumbled ledge below. Step out one of the windows here to find the far on an outdoor landing."
21:04:03 <Vorpal> I did manage to clear all the cobwebs in several minds btw already. Need to go back to some of the early ones to clean them up. And then there are all those figments of imagination around. That is going to take ages to clean up
21:04:24 <fizzie> Vorpal: Here's one straight off the road: http://zem.fi/g2/d/20130-1/d06-122503-122700.jpg
21:04:26 <Vorpal> and then it isn't even useful to look up guides, because who knows which one I missed
21:04:48 <fizzie> (The weather was quite... variable.)
21:05:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm? Looks the same across that pano at least?
21:05:36 <shachaf> Vorpal: You know that the only benefit to going from level 95 to level 100 is that it shows you a little movie?
21:05:36 <fizzie> Yes, I mean, just in general, across the trip.
21:05:52 <Vorpal> shachaf, anyway I'm on like 89 atm
21:05:53 <fizzie> Got stuck in snow once and all.
21:05:59 <shachaf> Vorpal: At level 90 you get regeneration.
21:06:07 <shachaf> At 95 you get unlimited ammo.
21:06:16 <Vorpal> shachaf, wait, was it 89? Hm, what was it that you got at 85?
21:06:33 <fizzie> Quite a few of these are hotel room photos, it's too useful in tight corners to be able to fake a wide-angle objective.
21:06:37 <Vorpal> wrecking ball is the last one I remember getting, though I was rather sleepy when I stopped playing
21:07:15 <Vorpal> shachaf, btw, what is the video about?
21:07:21 <Vorpal> (is it worth watching?)
21:07:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, can't your camera do wide angle? Mine goes down to 28mm (35 mm equiv)
21:08:13 <Vorpal> which is reasonably wide angle
21:08:30 <Vorpal> I think it is 28-370 or something like that.
21:09:13 <fizzie> Vorpal: No, it stops at the "standard-ish" 36mm. The next model did 28-<something>, it became a popular thing to do around that time. Oh well.
21:09:51 <fizzie> (I mean, more popular; certainly cameras that did 28mm already existed at that time; I think it's from 2007 or so.)
21:10:38 <Vorpal> well, my camera is from 2002 or 2003 or so
21:10:53 <Vorpal> so yeah they existed :P
21:12:15 <Vorpal> (and it has really amazing macro, I can get like 5-10 cm away from the subject, depending on the zoom level)
21:13:11 <fizzie> Here's another full-circle one from a road rest stop: http://zem.fi/g2/d/20413-1/d07-102527-102558.jpg -- it's right next to this fancy bridge http://zem.fi/g2/d/20432-2/d07-102747-p1120558.jpg -- that's behind the snow-heap there.
21:13:22 <fizzie> (You can just see the top of the bridge.)
21:14:21 <fizzie> Oh, I've managed to have a seam right in our car. :/ (Well, it *is* quite close.)
21:14:32 <Vorpal> btw, did firefox change something or why is the background for the image page not white?
21:14:37 <Vorpal> or is it actually a html page?
21:14:45 <fizzie> It might be a HTML page, actually.
21:14:46 <Vorpal> and where is the view source alternative then
21:14:56 <fizzie> It's one of those Gallery2 URLs, it might be doing weird stuffs.
21:15:05 <Vorpal> view source is grayed out though
21:15:18 <fizzie> It's white for me. Dunno.
21:15:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, also wtf is up with the redirect: http://β.zem.fi/g2/d/20432-2/d07-102747-p1120558.jpg
21:15:44 <fizzie> I'm sort of regretting the β, honestly.
21:16:00 <fizzie> It's nice when it works, but xn--nxa.zem.fi is less optimal.
21:16:09 <fizzie> Some browsers are very asinine about when they show IDNs and when not.
21:16:21 <fizzie> I had to add Greek to my list of languages in order for Chrome to show that letter.
21:16:42 <Vorpal> let me open chromium and check
21:16:43 <fizzie> (Whereas Firefox just has a TLD whitelist of domains where there's an official protocol for avoiding confusing names.)
21:17:09 <Vorpal> firefox seems a lot more sensible there
21:17:29 <fizzie> It's not terribly sensible to apply TLD-specific rules when it comes to non-second-level domain name components, though.
21:18:02 <shachaf> Vorpal: You can watch the bonus video online if you want to.
21:18:13 <shachaf> I doubt it's worth the agony.
21:18:19 <shachaf> Therefore you don't need to complete past level 95.
21:18:34 <fizzie> Anyway, it's redirected because "zem.fi" is on the VPS nowadays, but there's just 6G of disk there total, and the Gallery2 data directory is already 19G, so I host it locally.
21:20:45 <Vorpal> shachaf, hm still, gah
21:21:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, the pricing plans for VPS disk space tend to be absolutely terrible in my experience
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21:22:34 <Vorpal> shachaf, hm I wonder what is the lowest level you could complete the game on, certainly you do need some of the skills you get from leveling
21:22:40 <Vorpal> like invisibility iirc
21:23:31 <shachaf> Ah, the reverse-completionist.
21:24:44 <Vorpal> that is quite interesting as well
21:24:50 <fizzie> I seem to remember a Chrono Trigger low-level-run with Crono at level 1.
21:24:57 <Vorpal> shachaf, it would certainly be much harder to do
21:25:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, what about the other characters?
21:25:29 <fizzie> Vorpal: More, sadly. Some of them join at quite high levels. I'll see if I can figure out how to Google for it.
21:26:03 <Vorpal> anyway just getting chrono at level 1 is quite an achievement. I can't actually see how it would be possible
21:26:19 <fizzie> You don't get exp when knocked-out, so Crono spends quite a lot of time unconscious.
21:26:42 <shachaf> What about keeping a Chrono Legionnaire unpromoted?
21:26:57 <fizzie> The initial on-party-join levels are apparently 1, 1, 2, 5, 10, 18 and 37 for Crono, Marle, Lucca, Frog, Robo, Ayla and Magus, respectively.
21:27:01 <Vorpal> shachaf, what game is that?
21:27:32 <Vorpal> I have no clue what sort of game red alert is
21:28:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm kock out happens at 0 HP right?
21:28:23 <ion> Please put it back in.
21:28:30 <Vorpal> amusing that chrono actually dies as well. Ah the power of the cut scenes.
21:28:47 <shachaf> Vorpal: "Real-time strategy"
21:28:51 <fizzie> Vorpal: Okay, final levels in this run-through were Crono at level 1, Marle at level 4, Lucca at 15, Frog at 15, Robo at 16, Ayla at 20 and Magus at 37. (There's the item called "Wallet" which turns gained exp into gold, but you can only get that in the Zeal era, i.e. quite late in the game.)
21:29:12 <shachaf> Vorpal: You should acquire a copy!
21:29:26 <Vorpal> shachaf, not really into RTS
21:29:47 <Vorpal> apart from possibly dwarf fortress, and that isn't strictly an RTS, it is a lot more than that.
21:30:31 <fizzie> (The full description of the run is in GameFAQs, Chrono Trigger (SNES), "Low-Level FAQ/Walkthrough", but it's some >4000 lines of text...)
21:31:26 <shachaf> RA2 is, like, a special case, man.
21:34:20 <fizzie> Vorpal: Apparently during the game Crono gains a total of 9+6=15 exp, from a total of two fights. (Level 2 comes at 20 exp.) Rest of the time you just let him die before the end of every fight.
21:34:55 <fizzie> Must not be a very pleasant run-though from the point of view of the characters.
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21:36:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, I guess after you gain robo you can just move him out of your party
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21:37:43 <fizzie> Vorpal: I think they mostly keep the currently highest-leveled character as the single conscious-at-end-of-battle character, since the gaps between gaining levels are largest for him/her/it.
21:37:51 <fizzie> Vorpal: Oh, and I think there's a level-1 run of Final Fantasy IX too. It ends up finishing the final boss with a party of four level-1 characters.
21:38:42 <coppro> shachaf: chrono legionnaires were the best
21:38:48 <coppro> you could totally bust the allied campaign up with them
21:38:56 <coppro> if you used the waypoint trick
21:39:16 <coppro> shachaf: A legionnaire doesn't time out if it moves a short distance
21:39:27 <coppro> so you set up a bunch of waypoints to move it across the map very quickly in short hops
21:39:43 <shachaf> Anyway, RA2 is the future, man.
21:39:50 <coppro> just get enough of them into a weakly-defended location in order to freeze all the defenses
21:39:56 <coppro> really really powerful on, say, the kremlin level
21:40:20 <coppro> the AI is braindead so it doesn't go "oh hey things behind my lines I should stop them"
21:40:25 <coppro> it assumes that the defenses present will be enough
21:40:31 <coppro> which they aren't, because you're vaporizing them
21:40:46 <Vorpal> sounds like a terrible game
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21:41:12 <coppro> Vorpal: in campaign mode the AI mostly executes a series of preplanned things
21:41:20 <coppro> like "build up X force then attack with it"
21:41:26 <Sgeo> It looks different
21:41:32 <coppro> it's fairly old so AI still rather sucked back then
21:41:40 <coppro> oh, and the harder AI just cheats.
21:42:09 <coppro> like building multiple buildings simultaneously, which a player can never do
21:42:14 <coppro> shachaf: ever played RA3?
21:42:24 <coppro> although it leans too far to micromanagement I think
21:42:28 <coppro> (with special abilities)
21:42:48 <Vorpal> shachaf, there are some that lean the other way
21:42:59 <Vorpal> they tend to feel dumbed down though
21:43:13 <shachaf> Scriptability would seem to be the obvious way to fix that.
21:43:16 <coppro> RA3 was particularly bad
21:43:29 <coppro> since a force that you were watching carefully could do notably better
21:43:30 <Vorpal> shachaf, like the macros in df?
21:43:40 <coppro> since you could tell it to use special weapons at appropriate times
21:43:47 <coppro> for some units this makes a huge difference
21:43:54 <shachaf> Vorpal: I don't know anything about df.
21:44:00 <Vorpal> shachaf, dwarf fortress
21:44:06 <Vorpal> shachaf, you should play it
21:44:15 <coppro> That was a great (if occasionally frustrating) RTS that didnt' have you micromanage
21:44:24 <coppro> since you were just the king, you couldn't order your units around
21:44:32 <coppro> if you wanted them to kill stuff, you had to put a bounty on it
21:44:44 <shachaf> coppro: Do you still have RA3 set up?
21:44:54 <coppro> I don't have a computer capable of playing it atm
21:45:18 <coppro> Vorpal: 3-4 years I think?
21:45:27 <Vorpal> well, anything modern should be able to play RA2 then :P
21:45:36 <Vorpal> RA3 might be a different matter
21:45:36 <coppro> oh, I can definitely play RA2 on Wine
21:45:39 <shachaf> RA2 has this annoying DRM.
21:46:13 <Vorpal> the only good DRM ever was the monkey island DRM, it was amusing
21:46:31 <Vorpal> (the dial a pirate stuff)
21:47:41 <shachaf> coppro: Do you know why RA3 runs so well under WINE?
21:48:40 <shachaf> Answer: Because EA explicitly made it run well under wine in order to "port" to OS X: http://transgaming.com/cider/games?page=2
21:50:06 <Vorpal> btw I downloaded bastion for linux from the humble bundle (I owned it on steam already). It was news to me that XNA games worked under mono, but it came with mono included so...
21:50:27 <Vorpal> couldn't get it to work on the laptop I had at hand at that point though, intel graphics
21:53:27 <Vorpal> shachaf, anyway the last humble bundle is amazing
21:53:36 <Vorpal> best one ever I think.
21:53:55 <shachaf> They should make one bundle that has all the good games.
21:54:00 <ais523> <fuzzyfuzzyfungus> Y'know what fools the black-hats every time? Store the passwords in plaintext; but require all users to create a password consisting of exactly 64 hexadecimal characters...
21:54:00 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
21:54:03 <lambdabot> elliott asked 5h 44m 50s ago: Did you fix that NetHack 4 message fix yet? :(
21:54:21 <fizzie> 3184900.62 dollars cannot be wrong.
21:54:29 <ais523> @tell elliott during the tournament, I'm avoiding all but critical fixes
21:54:45 <fizzie> It is kinda-sorta sad, though, that there's a brony on top of the contributor list.
21:56:29 <Vorpal> shachaf, so... Trine, Psychonauts, Bastion, Avadon: The Black Fortress (I love Spiderweb Software!), Braid, Botanicula, Darwinia, VVVVVV?
21:56:46 <Vorpal> possibly limbo and amnesia too, though I'm not a fan of horror games
21:57:28 <fizzie> World of Goo is not a bad waste of time either.
21:57:56 <Vorpal> well, not if you run out of other things no
21:58:35 <Vorpal> anyway it annoys me when I own some of the games previously, like Avadon or Bastion. Owned those before the respective bundles
21:59:08 <fizzie> Anyway, using the objective "total purchases" measure, this last one is indeed the most glorious bundle.
21:59:13 <Vorpal> didn't get the bundle with Avadon because of that. Got the bundle with bastion due to psychonauts
21:59:36 <fizzie> Though (at least at the moment, anyway) not if using the "average price" measure.
22:00:28 <Vorpal> that tends to raise slowly, it still got several days to go
22:00:57 <fizzie> It needs to go up to $9.18 to match the first bundle, it might well not get that far.
22:01:14 <Vorpal> yeah probably not that much
22:01:44 <fizzie> It was around $6.68 or so when I bought, about one day in.
22:02:05 <fizzie> I'm sure someone has a graph somewhere. :p
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22:03:11 <fizzie> I don't know why, but if I hover my mouse over the pie graph of Windows/Mac/Linux, it turns grayscale.
22:08:26 <coppro> shachaf: for RA2, you need to get nocd patches and pray hard
22:08:30 <coppro> shachaf: for RA3, dunno
22:08:39 <coppro> never tried since my computer can't run in anyway
22:09:20 <shachaf> coppro: Are these "nocd patches" official?
22:09:36 <fizzie> All hail the Sun God, he sure is a fun god, RA RA2 RA3.
22:09:44 <coppro> but you also need them for the other option, which is a VM
22:09:52 <coppro> please detach the debugger FUCK YOU
22:10:19 <shachaf> coppro: In a VM you can use a CD image.
22:10:28 <coppro> shachaf: no, you can't
22:10:35 <coppro> shachaf: RA2 mistakes the VM for a debugger
22:10:40 <shachaf> Not .iso, but some other kind.
22:14:00 <coppro> it may not exist with hardware virtualization
22:14:06 <coppro> but it does exist with software
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22:15:08 <ion> vorpal: Yeah, they apparently used http://monogame.codeplex.com/ with good success.
22:17:54 <Vorpal> ion, should try magicka with that, though that might be steamworks as well, not sure
22:19:39 <fizzie> I think you're supposed to have the sources of the game in question, at least in the usual way of using that thing.
22:19:55 <ion> Yeah, probably.
22:21:54 <Vorpal> so not ABI compatible?
22:23:28 <fizzie> I don't *know* anything. At least it might involve fiddling.
22:24:05 <nortti> wow. I have lag of 30.08
22:24:17 <fizzie> Is that really something to be proud of?
22:25:25 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:25:38 <fizzie> Hey, it's that IPv6 launch day today. (Well, yesterday already, as seen from here.)
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22:28:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, IPv6 launch day?
22:28:45 -!- Patashu has quit (Disconnected by services).
22:28:48 <fizzie> Vorpal: http://www.worldipv6launch.org/
22:28:55 <Vorpal> IPv6 has been around for ages, but no one uses it
22:29:16 <fizzie> Vorpal: Facebook, Google, Youtube and Yahoo now do.
22:29:29 <Vorpal> there has been ipv6.google.com for ages
22:29:36 <fizzie> Yes, but "google.com" is now v6.
22:29:53 <Vorpal> great, now my tunnel is counterproductive -_-
22:29:54 <nortti> #rawirc PRIVMSG oonbotti :#rawirc PRIVMSG oonbotti :#rawirc PRIVMSG #esoteric foo
22:30:08 <Vorpal> my ADSL modem doesn't even support ipv6
22:30:28 <fizzie> As is "youtube.com" and "facebook.com" and "yahoo.com". And then some lesser fish (microsoft.com, aol.com, netflix.com, mozilla.org) but those four are the top four Alexa-ranked pages of the entire interwebs.
22:30:53 <Vorpal> so I should now stop my ipv6 tunnel if I ever want to watch a youtube video
22:31:15 <Vorpal> (the bandwidth is not as good as native, obviously)
22:31:20 <fizzie> A couple of network operators (Verizon Wireless, Comcast) also default-enabled v6, for some definition of the term.
22:31:28 <Vorpal> (and I can /just/ about manage 1080p on my native connection)
22:32:24 <fizzie> Funet, the Finnish university network, is on the list. Maybe it means they'll finally get some native v6 at the university. Probably not, though. (The student housing network has been v6-enabled for ages, as I recall.)
22:32:57 <fizzie> Possibly it just means that Funet is willing if the client is interested, which has also been the case long now.
22:33:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, where is the list?
22:33:43 <fizzie> http://www.worldipv6launch.org/participants/?q=2 -- not too many names.
22:34:05 <fizzie> Funet seems to be the only thing from Finland.
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22:34:45 <shachaf> "slbkbs.org: now brought to you with the power of ipv6"
22:35:19 <fizzie> It's probably mostly a matter of finding someone in the organization willing to put a name there. Certainly SUNET gives out IPv6 addresses too.
22:35:24 <fizzie> http://stats.sunet.se/ipv6/
22:36:39 <fizzie> I see facebook has decided to be "clever" with their addresses.
22:36:40 <fizzie> facebook.com has IPv6 address 2a03:2880:10:8f01:face:b00c:0:25
22:36:40 <fizzie> facebook.com has IPv6 address 2a03:2880:2110:3f01:face:b00c::
22:36:40 <fizzie> facebook.com has IPv6 address 2a03:2880:10:1f02:face:b00c:0:25
22:36:49 <fizzie> face:b00c, yes yes, very "heh".
22:38:23 <fizzie> zem.fi should also be accessible for v6-only hosts nowadays, I think I finally got some IPv6 glue in the .fi registry when they upgraded their infrastructure earlier this year.
22:39:01 <fizzie> Yes, "dig @a.fi zem.fi" gives out one v6 address too. "Yay."
22:39:37 <olsner> I think I have no ipv6 connectivity at all
22:41:05 <fizzie> aalto.fi, our university, at least has IPv6able DNS by virtue of having ns-secondary.funet.fi as a secondary DNS server. That's all, though.
22:45:20 <fizzie> http://www.ams-ix.net/sflow-stats/ipv6/ -- well, that's somewhat of a bump there for today.
22:45:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, it needs ipv6 glue? Only for the DNS surely?
22:46:16 <fizzie> Yes, but I didn't have that earlier. The .fi roots have been v6-enabled again for ages, but IIRC the domain administration webterface didn't let you stick in glue, and my DNS server used to have an in-zem.fi name.
22:47:36 <fizzie> Which is of course important for that huge number of v6-only hosts that don't have any IPv4 connectivity at all.
22:49:24 <fizzie> Oh, and the rather large subset of that who frequent zem.fi.
22:49:32 <fizzie> I think in integer terms that rounds up to... 0 hosts.
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22:56:52 <ais523> fizzie: a.fi is one of the .fi root servers?
22:57:42 <fizzie> ais523: Yes, they're named a.fi, b.fi, ... up to some letter. Us Finns are not known for creativity, after all.
22:58:05 <ais523> now I'm trying to remember what the root servers are called
22:58:11 <ais523> I know they're single letters too, but forget the domain
22:58:27 <fizzie> They go up to i, apparently.
22:58:46 <fizzie> Those are X.root-servers.net.
22:59:15 <fizzie> And X.gtld-servers.net handle .com and some others.
22:59:17 <Vorpal> iirc they are usually written in upper case
22:59:34 <fizzie> Yes, that too. The .fi roots aren't.
22:59:50 <Vorpal> 129.14.0.193.in-addr.arpa domain name pointer k.root-servers.net.
22:59:57 <Vorpal> hm maybe it normalizes the casing?
23:00:12 <oonbotti> : ; WORDS FORGET + DROP SWAP DUP NIP OVER >R * - / . R@ R> MOD
23:00:39 <Vorpal> at least not if that is the complete word list
23:00:40 <fizzie> I don't think so. (It's not mine.)
23:00:48 <ais523> what's the minimum Forth subset needed to implement the rest, without involving asm anywhere?
23:00:52 <ais523> I guess there are multiple such subsets
23:01:28 <fizzie> ais523: There was a comp.forth (IIRC) thread about that recently. Some of the constructions were rather bizarre, especially after expanding.
23:01:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, how do you mean bizarre?
23:02:06 <Vorpal> as in word like : are just weird?
23:02:21 <Vorpal> actually, : is not a proper word is it? I don't remember
23:02:34 <Vorpal> I do remember the definition of ; is weird
23:03:22 <nortti> Vorpal: not even close. oonbotto doesn't even have conditional execution or loops
23:04:06 <Vorpal> nortti, it is your bot?
23:04:08 <nortti> ais523: I could get it to : ; r> >r r@ if then begin while repeat -
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23:04:16 <Vorpal> nortti, why so few words?
23:04:30 <ais523> begin but not end? neat
23:04:49 <fizzie> Vorpal: Just that if you build the "primitive" stack manipulations out of >R and R>, and then the "bit less primitive" ones (nip, etc.) out of those, the more complicated ones, expanded out, will look rather horrible.
23:05:20 <nortti> Vorpal: I haven't really worked with that forth interpreter that much. I will make if and while available
23:05:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, which one is "nip" now again?
23:05:45 <nortti> fizzie: well oonbotti actually implements stack manipulation with them
23:05:49 <Vorpal> nortti, you want DOES> too
23:05:52 <fizzie> I could find references to a 9-word set in comp.lang.forth.
23:06:22 <Vorpal> nortti, how else can you implement separate run time and compile time semantics?
23:06:51 <oonbotti> : ; WORDS FORGET OVER >R * - / . R@ R> MOD
23:06:59 <Vorpal> nortti, hm what is the definition of of FORGET now again?
23:07:08 * Vorpal considers running $ forget :
23:07:37 <nortti> Vorpal: run it if you want. I have commad to restore the entire environment
23:08:06 <Vorpal> nortti, that is a terrible definition of dup :(
23:08:34 <Vorpal> those should be implemented in asm
23:09:23 <nortti> Vorpal: I wanted to create small subset I could expand in forth. those are actually the original implementations
23:09:39 <nortti> +of oonbottis forth interpreter
23:09:56 <nortti> $ : swap over >r >r drop r> r> ;
23:10:24 <oonbotti> : ; WORDS FORGET + DROP SWAP DUP NIP OVER >R * - / . R@ R> MOD
23:10:37 <oonbotti> ERROR:word 'MOD' cannot be forgotten
23:10:54 <nortti> oh. I haven't rewritten that one in forth yet
23:11:34 <oonbotti> ERROR:word 'FORGET' cannot be forgotten
23:11:50 <Vorpal> nortti, dammit where is @
23:11:58 <nortti> only words that are written in forth can be forgotten
23:12:20 <oonbotti> ERROR:word ';' cannot be forgotten
23:12:29 <Vorpal> well ; can be written in Forth
23:12:50 <Vorpal> nortti, it uses EXIT and some restarting of the interpreter using ] iirc?
23:13:14 <Vorpal> hey resetenv is not listed in WORDS :/
23:13:37 <nortti> Vorpal: that is because it is not part of interpreter
23:14:02 <nortti> it just throws the old interpreter instace out of window and creates new
23:14:50 <Vorpal> : ; POSTPONE EXIT REVEAL POSTPONE [ ; IMMEDIATE
23:14:50 <fizzie> Aw, I can't find the discussion. I think it even had some esolanger suggest a shorter r> >r mess and all.
23:15:14 <Vorpal> you are lacking the IMMEDIATE word too
23:15:21 <Vorpal> can't see how you can do that in Forth itself
23:16:04 <nortti> Vorpal: I can really see how you can create whole ans forth using those
23:16:24 <Vorpal> nortti, well no, you need a few more things
23:16:36 <Vorpal> but that bit is enough for defining ;
23:16:56 <nortti> it uses ; to declare ; :P
23:17:11 <Vorpal> nortti, how so? the [ handles that
23:19:27 <fizzie> Oh, here is a discussion; I remember reading at least this one.
23:19:35 <fizzie> http://www.retroprogramming.com/2009/07/perverse-code-deviant-forth.html
23:19:39 <fizzie> It has oklopol in the comments.
23:20:16 <fizzie> Anyway, there have been comp.lang.forth minimalism threads too. Nothing very conclusive.
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23:20:36 <fizzie> ">r >r >r r@ r@ r> r@ - >r r@ - r@ r@ r> - r> - - >r >r >r r@ r> - - r> r@ r@ r> r@ - >r r@ - r@ r@ r> - r> - - >r >r >r r@ r> - - r> r>"
23:20:47 <nortti> fizzie: interesting how over is exactly the same as mine
23:21:42 <fizzie> The thing quoted above is I think ROT.
23:21:54 <fizzie> Or at least it's claimed to be.
23:22:21 <nortti> $ : rot >r swap r> swap ;
23:22:36 <nortti> that one is pretty elegant
23:24:45 <Vorpal> <fizzie> ">r >r >r r@ r@ r> r@ - >r r@ - r@ r@ r> - r> - - >r >r >r r@ r> - - r> r@ r@ r> r@ - >r r@ - r@ r@ r> - r> - - >r >r >r r@ r> - - r> r>" <-- which command is that?
23:25:22 <nortti> $ : rot >r >r >r r@ r@ r> r@ - >r r@ - r@ r@ r> - r> - - >r >r >r r@ r> - - r> r@ r@ r> r@ - >r r@ - r@ r@ r> - r> - - >r >r >r r@ r> - - r> r> ;
23:25:25 <Vorpal> that is a terrible implementation in practise :P
23:25:27 <fizzie> I mean, look at the >r >r >r at start, can't be swap.
23:25:38 <fizzie> There was a bit shorter one later on.
23:26:05 <fizzie> ">r >r >r r@ r> r@ - >r r@ - r@ r@ r> - r> - - >r r@ r> r@ - >r r@ - r@ r@ r> - r> - -"
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23:26:12 <Vorpal> reading the stack the wrong way
23:26:46 <Vorpal> I guess I can replace words?
23:27:00 <oonbotti> : ; WORDS FORGET FORGET + DROP 1+ 0 SWAP DUP NIP ROT OVER >R * - / . R@ R> MOD
23:27:16 <Vorpal> well I guess you can't get at the real FORGET without resetting the env
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23:30:00 <nortti> actually $ is just alias for #forth
23:30:03 <oonbotti> #echo, #welcome, #cat, #ls, #rm, #writefile, #cc, #exec, #msg, #readmsg, #forth, #loadforth
23:30:23 <nortti> #writefile test.forth 1 2 3 . . .
23:32:00 <oonbotti> nortti: Welcome to this completely useless channel!
23:32:31 <nortti> it was designed to run on #esoteric-en
23:32:50 <oonbotti> ERROR:word ':' cannot be forgotten
23:33:18 <nortti> pikhq_: only words defined on forth can be forgotten
23:34:28 <oonbotti> ERROR:word 'FORGET' cannot be forgotten
23:34:34 <oonbotti> ERROR:word ':' cannot be forgotten
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23:34:45 <oonbotti> : ; WORDS FORGET + DROP SWAP DUP NIP OVER >R * - / . R@ R> MOD
23:35:59 <nortti> and later I will implement MOD in forth
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23:56:05 <nortti_> who needs number when you can define them on the fly?
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00:42:30 <Gregor> Is it terrible that I'm in Beijing and I want to eat at KFC?
00:42:40 <Gregor> I want to know what all the fuss is about.
00:50:35 <pikhq_> Probably just fried chicken, if it's anything like Japanese KFC.
00:53:45 <Gregor> OK, A) All the Chinese food I've had thusfar has disappointed.
00:54:01 <Gregor> B) I have LOTS of time to have authentic food, I need SOME variety anyway.
00:54:04 <quintopia> well, perhaps you shouldnt be eating chinese food
00:54:08 <Gregor> (Yesterday I ate Thai for dinner)
00:54:23 <quintopia> that said, the best chinese food i hac was in shanghi, so you could just be in the wrong part of the country
00:54:49 <pikhq_> Yeah, Chinese food is (I'm told) very heavily regional.
00:54:58 <pikhq_> It could just be that Beijing-area food sucks.
00:55:22 <Gregor> Maybe I should look for a Shanghainese restaurant :)
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00:58:09 <kmc> sichuan food is so good!
00:59:00 <kmc> also there's a restaurant in NYC called Xi'an Famous Foods which has incredible noodles
00:59:16 <kmc> i don't know if this is representative of the food from that area or not
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01:04:20 <Gregor> http://goo.gl/maps/nh6R <-- here, you choose where I should eat Lunch X-D
01:05:39 <pikhq_> Betcha that "western" restaurant's weird... :P
01:07:53 <Gregor> It's probably to "western" food what "Chinese" restaurants are to "Chinese" food O_0
01:09:07 <kmc> "The toilet recommended a place called Americatown"
01:09:11 <pikhq_> Much like Japanese 'western' food.
01:09:30 <Gregor> pikhq_: But it could be fun for exactly that reason ;)
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07:24:15 <Deewiant> 06.17:56:15 ( elliott) Oh, Ray Bradbury died.
07:24:36 <Deewiant> You're a bit over 16 hours late with almost exactly the same message.
07:24:45 <fizzie> Now they'll BradBURY him.
07:25:12 <monqy> "just normal bury me please" - bradburey
07:25:13 <fizzie> I suppose it could be also bradcremation.
07:25:14 <Deewiant> Meanwhile, I still don't know who he was. Maybe now's the time to check Wikipedia.
07:25:30 <fizzie> One of those bookwriters.
07:26:00 <Deewiant> Evidently yes. The guy who hated television.
07:26:03 <fizzie> Aged 91; can't perhaps quite call that life tragically cut short.
07:26:33 <pikhq_> That's before the heat death of the universe, so at least *some* would call it cut short.
07:34:59 <Deewiant> Well, I suppose that somewhat follows.
07:35:15 <Deewiant> Television isn't generally considered very hate-inducing. Or at least it wasn't back then.
07:35:19 <Phantom_Hoover> His WP article actually quotes him saying "We've got too many internets."
07:36:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Deewiant, um what, television has always been the go-to thing to bitch about how our culture is totally going downhill from the days when the common man read Dochevsky.
07:36:30 <pikhq_> "We have too many cellphones. We've got too many Internets. We have got to get rid of those machines. We have too many machines now."
07:36:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, since television became a major part of culture.
07:37:12 <pikhq_> Just when we got to the point where information is forever, too.
07:37:13 <Deewiant> I was thinking that it wasn't that major back then, but maybe I'm wrong.
07:38:20 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: Strange concept, that, considering mere universal literacy is relatively young.
07:39:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Deewiant, well it came out in 1953, so I think it was at least significant and on the rise.
07:41:01 <Deewiant> Maybe so. I'm at least quite sure that it was a very rare thing in Finland at the time, but the UK was somewhat ahead.
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07:42:04 <pikhq_> Took off like crazy in the US.
07:42:37 <pikhq_> Heck, 1953's when NTSC color was introduced.
07:42:41 <Deewiant> Oh whoops, he was American. Well, even more, then.
07:43:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Well the Quatermass Experiment had 5 million viewers at its peak and it came out in '53, and that's got to be at least a tenth of the UK population at the time.
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07:44:50 <pikhq_> "I Love Lucy" had been running for 2 years by then...
07:45:13 <pikhq_> Heck, Nielsen ratings were introduced in 1950.
07:46:42 <fizzie> "Television was introduced in Finland in 1957. Color television started in 1969. Prior to 1986, YLE monopolized the Finnish television."
07:46:49 <fizzie> We're a bit slow, y'know.
07:46:59 <Deewiant> I was just looking at that stuff. Evidently the first television transmission was in 1955.
07:46:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh god, this conversation has reminded me of the Foundation series.
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07:47:21 <pikhq_> Yeah, has to first get translated to Japanese, and then put through the Finnish cypher. :P
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07:48:13 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq_, well the first parts are OK but once the Second Foundation comes into play it's just this slow, annoying decay into "AHA I am the true force for good in the universe!"
07:48:13 <Deewiant> Sources vary as to the exact year, but 1956-1958 for actual scheduled programs.
07:49:01 <Deewiant> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:TV-introduction-world-map.svg
07:49:15 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: I seem to recall Asimov being confused as to why people like the Foundation series so much.
07:50:58 <fizzie> Deewiant: At least us scandinavians are mostly in the same group. (Iceland doesn't count.)
07:51:25 <Phantom_Hoover> "The Mule is a central character in Foundation and Empire and Second Foundation. Foundation's Edge reveals that he originally came from the planet Gaia, but was regarded as an aberration on a world where mental powers were being developed for benevolent ends."
07:51:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh for fuck's sake Asimov did you really pull that one
07:53:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Retconning the Mule's origins as being from the stupid psychic planet rather than being a freak of nature, which is a genuinely interesting proposition.
07:53:39 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean the whole point of the Mule is that he's basically an outside context problem for the Foundation because they couldn't predict him, which is kind of cheapened by the stupid twist.
07:53:41 <pikhq_> I actually *know* Foundation's Edge was written just to shut up annoying fans.
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07:54:02 <pikhq_> Which is why it, honestly, was uninteresting.
07:54:37 <pikhq_> Shame, too. I like Asimov when he's not writing on what he obviously doesn't much care for.
07:54:43 <fizzie> Deewiant: Outside the "Saha" building there was a sign today advertising an event with the topic "Yhteistyöympäristöt globaaleissa tuoteprosesseissa".
07:57:46 <fizzie> (Approximate translation: "Cooperation environments in global product processes".)
07:59:38 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq_, I have one of his books of essays and some of them are really good.
08:02:10 <fizzie> I have some Asimov short story collections, and some of those are quite good too. (Some which mention Multivac are sort-of amusingly dated, though.)
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08:27:02 <shachaf> fizzie: Finnish is a good language.
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08:32:58 <fizzie> Looks fancy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6Douyfa7l8
08:35:22 <fizzie> They also have a human-powered street view photography thing: http://googleblog.blogspot.fi/2012/06/never-ending-quest-for-perfect-map.html
08:35:54 <fizzie> (Look how happy the guy is. (I wonder how much that thing weighs.))
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09:50:25 <nortti> shachaf: you can learn it online. really only hard thing is how we put awful lot of junk into a word. ("I sit"->"istun", "you sit"->"istut", "he/she sits"->"hän istuu", "box"->"laatikko", "to box"->"laatikkoon", "in box"->"laatikossa", "from box"->"laatikosta" and so on)
09:51:32 <nortti> "without his box"->"laatikottaan"
09:55:17 <fizziew> "kahvinjuojallekin" - also for a coffee drinker. It's one of our standard examples when talking about the statistical-morphemes-based language model thing we have.
09:56:12 <nortti> "kevytmoottipolttoöljykanisteri"
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09:57:00 <fizziew> Well, we do a lot of compound words like that, too, but the suffixes are I think more interesting.
09:57:26 <nortti> epäjärjelmällisydettymyydelläkään
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09:58:55 <fizziew> I've most often heard that as "epäjärjestelmällistyttämättömyydelläänsäkään", or some-such. Not that anyone would really go that far, ordinarily.
10:00:16 <nortti> and that is one word with suffixes
10:01:20 <fizziew> Aw, the Kielipankki corpus files have mode 600, I can't check what's the longest actually-used word in that.
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10:01:56 <fizziew> It's this collection of newspaper text. We use it for training language models.
10:02:42 <fizziew> There's some 145 million words of text there.
10:03:15 <nortti> how large are those files?
10:03:36 <fizziew> Few hundred megabytes. Text compresses well, after all.
10:03:47 <fizziew> It's the audio that takes up space, really.
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10:08:34 <Taneb> @ask zzo38 Could you give me a copy of the next version of Prelude.Generalize so I know what'll be in it, please?
10:09:21 <fizziew> The Finnish "SPEECON" audio corpus we've used takes up 71 gigabytes of disk, according to du. And it only has three of the four recording channels.
10:09:31 <fizziew> Admittedly it's uncompressed PCM.
10:12:43 <Vorpal> fizziew, four channels?
10:12:52 <Vorpal> what is the point of that?
10:12:56 <Taneb> BBC 1, BBC 2, ITV and Channel 4
10:13:29 <nortti> TV1, TV2, MTV3, Nelonen (four)
10:13:35 <Vorpal> Taneb, I thought he meant audio channels, like stereo has channels
10:13:37 <fizziew> Vorpal: They're recorded with four different microphones -- headset mic, lapel mic, and two more or less far-away microphones -- so that you get the same speech at different noise levels.
10:13:55 <Taneb> Vorpal, me and nortti were both joking
10:14:25 <nortti> note to self: there are not 32 days in any month
10:15:23 <Vorpal> nortti, why would there be?
10:16:50 <nortti> Vorpal: I fucked up my calendar calculation software and so it thinks that normaly months are either 32 or 31 days long and February is either 30 or 29 days
10:17:25 <Vorpal> whoa, latest firefox update makes firefox empty tab page look like chrome, showing images of commonly visited pages
10:17:26 <Taneb> Subtract 1 day from each month
10:17:32 <Vorpal> not sure I like that...
10:18:07 <nortti> Vorpal: you can disable that
10:18:21 <Vorpal> trying to look for that setting atm
10:18:45 <nortti> Vorpal: about:config . you can also switch to old tab behaviour from there
10:19:22 <Vorpal> what old tab behaviour? I use tab mix plus addon so I guess it overwrote any changes to that
10:19:32 <Vorpal> nortti, anyway, which about:config setting?
10:22:38 <Vorpal> hm also scrolling with pgup/pgdown (useful since this is a laptop, and I don't use the touchpad, I use the trackpoint) now seems to visibly scroll rather than just jump
10:22:41 <fizziew> Vorpal: New Firefox also default-enables SPDY.
10:22:55 <fizziew> Not that I think any non-Google entities really go all SPDY.
10:23:06 <Vorpal> yeah that would be doubtful
10:23:24 <Vorpal> which httpds even supports spdy?
10:23:33 <fizziew> There's an Apache module, but that's not a surprise.
10:23:39 <fizziew> There's probably an Apache module for everything.
10:23:59 <fizziew> The scrolling is the "smooth scrolling", and I did notice they mentioned default-enabling that too in the change notes.
10:24:26 <Vorpal> fizziew, any idea how to turn off the smooth scrolling, it just takes pointless time
10:24:59 <fizziew> general.smoothScroll is my guess.
10:25:15 <Vorpal> why so much eye candy :(
10:26:09 <fizziew> They have to keep up with the competition, after all.
10:26:13 <Vorpal> is there an RFC for SPDY? I seem to remember reading that firefox wouldn't be implementing SPDY until there was an RFC for it
10:26:53 <fizziew> I don't think there's anything else than the non-RFC drafts that say "this is not a standard yet" in bold at top.
10:27:01 <Vorpal> uh, I just checked chrome, it doesn't smooth scroll :P
10:27:34 <fizziew> Well, then, not only keep up, but surpass them.
10:27:58 <Vorpal> anyway I can't find any option for the new tab in about:config, nor did google turn up anything useful
10:29:45 <fizziew> http://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/new-tab-page-show-hide-and-customize-top-sites?s=new+tab+page&r=1&e=es&as=s#w_how-do-i-turn-the-new-tab-page-off
10:30:08 <fizziew> browser.newtab.url from 'about:newtab' to 'about:blank'.
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10:34:24 <fizziew> oklopol: I suppose you're the same oklopol who's been commenting at http://www.retroprogramming.com/2009/07/perverse-code-deviant-forth.html in 2009?
10:34:50 <oklopol> i don't remember doing that, but it's obviously my code.
10:35:45 <fizziew> I just independently came across it, and wondered if there could be two of you.
10:35:49 <fizziew> That would be quite a shock.
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10:36:36 <oklopol> actually i've seen a few people called oklopol on the internets, but their existences have been brief
10:36:50 <fizziew> You ate them and obtained their powers?
10:37:10 <Vorpal> does oklopol mean anything in Finnish?
10:37:27 <fizziew> More importantly, do you expect you'd get a straight answer from him?
10:37:37 <Vorpal> I didn't target it at him only
10:37:42 <oklopol> yes, it means One Who De-fucking-vours His Enemies.
10:37:52 <fizziew> I wouldn't want to spoil the effect.
10:37:53 <Vorpal> fizziew, to me it doesn't seem like an obvious nick at all
10:38:23 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure i've told the channel where my nick comes from
10:38:55 <oklopol> monopoly => monopoli => olopoli => oklopol.
10:39:53 <oklopol> after we played olopoli at this scouting event some years ago, there was this whole thing about the bitter aftertaste of oklopol, and the deadly forests of oklopol. we rarely discuss the aftertaste now that i've taken it as a permanick.
10:40:17 <oklopol> dunno where the k came from.
10:41:24 <fizziew> What a perfectly straightforward story.
10:42:34 <oklopol> so i'm making a webpage, i hear that's the hip new thing
10:43:15 <fizziew> "Olopoli on toiminnallinen ja ajatuksia herättävä peli nuoren elämästä. Peliä pelataan vartioittain. Jokainen vartio tuo tullessaan pelinappulan (esim. kenkä, puurokauha) ja henkilökohtaisena varausteena jokainen tarvitsee istuinalustan."
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10:43:53 <oklopol> it was the hilarioust game of ever.
10:44:31 <oklopol> has it been played on multiple occasions?
10:44:38 <Vorpal> <fizziew> "Olopoli on toiminnallinen ja ajatuksia herättävä peli nuoren elämästä. Peliä pelataan vartioittain. Jokainen vartio tuo tullessaan pelinappulan (esim. kenkä, puurokauha) ja henkilökohtaisena varausteena jokainen tarvitsee istuinalustan." <-- huh?
10:45:13 <Vorpal> google translate is usually terrible from Finnish so care to give me translation?
10:45:48 <fizziew> Vorpal: Uh... Olopoli is a functional and thought-provoking game about the life of a young person. And then some less important stuff.
10:45:59 <fizziew> I don't really know what "toiminnallinen" means. Action-full?
10:46:02 <oklopol> olopoli is a hip and cool youngster game, you play it with a bunch of buddies, every bunch brings an object (a shoe or some other utensil) and also you need something for your ass.
10:46:11 <Vorpal> fizziew, so what about the monopoly bit?
10:46:18 <oklopol> that's where the name comes from
10:46:52 <oklopol> also the board is a 1-dimensional torus like in monopoly.
10:46:56 <fizziew> Does it actually have anything to do with it game-mechanistically speaking, though? (Well, I guess the shoe fits. Isn't one of the playing pieces a shoe?)
10:47:24 <oklopol> i don't remember how it was played, i just remember we learned things like always use a condom with a prostitute unless she promises you're her first.
10:47:59 <fizziew> There's a computer game that teaches you important things about puberty too, it's called "Murkku", I've occasionally been trying to re-find it.
10:48:22 <fizziew> (Short for 'murrosikä', puberty.)
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10:49:31 <oklopol> fizziew: did you find anything other than that description
10:49:49 <oklopol> i have to go get my conference proceedings back from my ex soon
10:50:31 <fizzie> oklopol: Some camp schedules with Olopoli hours marked. And a press release mentioning the introducing of Olopoli.
10:51:25 <fizzie> It's in tarus.fi, yes.
10:51:35 <fizzie> "5. Finnjamboree Padasjoki 28.7.-5.8.2004"
10:52:08 <fizzie> Also there's an article about it in the proceedings of "Kouluterveyspäivät 2009" at University of Tampere.
10:52:12 <Vorpal> I would never have guessed oklopol used to be a boyscout. Heh.
10:52:32 <oklopol> i still get invited in scouting things.
10:52:52 <oklopol> mainly because most of my friends still do it
10:53:24 <fizzie> "Olopoli's purpose is to challenge the participants to a conversation about e.g. relationships, personal wellbeing, sexuality and drugs."
10:53:50 <fizzie> My wife's brothers did scout stuff.
10:54:49 <fizzie> But the first version was unveiled at Tarus 2004, apparently.
10:55:15 <oklopol> i liked the parts where we did nothing in a cold, wet and dark forest. i hated the parts where we did stuff.
10:56:35 <oklopol> when people tell me about the horrors of the army, it almost makes me want to go. then i realize it's not all freezing to death and being awake weeks at a time. you also have to be part of a social hierarchy.
10:56:44 <fizzie> MURKKU I can't find, though. There's a forum posting from 2007 asking "doesn't anyone remember MURKKU?", but that's about all. :/
10:57:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, was that from the scouts too?
10:57:11 <oklopol> reminds me of that XKCD comic
10:57:28 <fizzie> Vorpal: No. But it was educational. We had a copy at the school's computer classroom.
10:57:36 <Vorpal> oklopol, which xkcd comic?
10:57:59 <oklopol> the one where the guy has some obscure problem and finds a forum where someone has asked about it.
10:58:14 <fizzie> It was in the style of one of those "select from a preset list of commands" adventure games.
10:58:28 <fizzie> There was a "listen" command, which played a sequence of random bleeps and said "you hear voices". I'm not sure if it was useful for anything else.
10:59:00 <fizzie> Also you could look at yourself, and get a random word describing your emotional state, plus some other attributes like "you smell bad" if you've taken the sausage for the dog.
10:59:00 <oklopol> "you get your first zit. do you a) kill yourself b) kill your friends c) keep masturbating, but use a less clean mirror from now on"
10:59:10 <fizzie> Or "The VCR you stole weighs your conscience."
10:59:35 <fizzie> Also there was something about a rusty bed-frame in a tree.
10:59:43 <fizzie> I may be mixing these things up a bit.
10:59:48 <oklopol> excuse me but this game sounds awesome
11:00:30 <fizzie> It's not very long. I don't remember what happens when you win.
11:00:47 <oklopol> "yay you're an adult now. you can never play MURKKU again."
11:00:51 <fizzie> I think there were some hobos and a junk heap also involved.
11:01:02 <fizzie> Possibly in conjunction with the bed.
11:04:38 <fizzie> It was made by <something>soft, I think. Where 'something' was a derivation from the "lead programmer"'s first name.
11:05:59 <oklopol> kind of did sound like a computer game, but i wanted to keep the mystery
11:07:12 <fizzie> I'm so displeased about not being able to find this thing in the Internet. Everything's supposed to be there.
11:10:49 <oklopol> the internet is overrated, most things i need daily are more likely found in the small library of the math dep than on the internet
11:11:18 <nortti> Vorpal: the one that tabs open at the end of tab bar. also it seems you can turn disable that new emty tab page by clicking some cube icon at upper right
11:11:38 <fizzie> Not "disable", just hide.
11:11:44 <oklopol> and it's weird what they say about porn on the internet, it's really a very tiny percentage that gets there, you have to order most things directly from the germans.
11:12:35 <oklopol> okay i have to go get my proceedings WHICH YOU CANNOT READ FREELY ON THE INTERNET :(
11:13:12 <fizzie> Academic publishing: it's what's for dinner.
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11:42:20 <fizzie> Sourceforge "user review" for SPIM, the MIPS(32) simulator: "One of the best FTP clients I've tried for GNU/Linux and Windows"
11:45:09 <fizzie> It's recently (Jan 2011 is recent, right?) gotten a new Qt UI.
11:45:46 <nortti> what toolkit did the old UI use?
11:47:26 <fizzie> It was all retro like that.
11:47:43 <fizzie> Not that I ever used the X version, wasn't much point.
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11:48:46 <nortti> is there other than X version of it? is the old Xaw toolkit version still available?
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11:49:08 <nortti> (that would run on linux I mean)
11:49:17 <fizzie> There's a non-graphical version.
11:49:29 <fizzie> It might have had some sort of a curses-like UI, I don't exactly remember.
11:49:43 <fizzie> http://blog.agdunn.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/xspim1.png -> http://sourceforge.net/projects/spimsimulator/screenshots/313041 it is a bit of a modernization.
11:50:33 <nortti> imo the old was much better
11:51:27 <fizzie> Well, that's arguable. I've never been much of a fan with the Xaw scrollbars.
11:53:01 <nortti> I like them. Xaw is also light and that is a good thing. on X I se xterm as my terminal emulator and xedit as my text editor
11:53:46 <Vorpal> nortti, does xedit even have syntax highlighting?
11:54:14 <fizzie> Vorpal: You're asking this from a person who uses busybox vi. :p
11:55:12 <nortti> well I don't normaly use busybox vi. I like unix v6 ed bit more
11:55:22 <Vorpal> you are joking, right?
11:55:28 <fizzie> It's the standard text editor, no joking about it.
11:55:34 <Vorpal> nortti, you should use TECO
11:56:05 <nortti> Vorpal: can it be run on modern linux
11:56:27 <fizzie> I think there's at least some ports.
11:56:47 <Vorpal> nortti, anyway why use modern linux? You should use something older
11:57:29 <nortti> Vorpal: I have apout so if it has been ported to unix v7 or older on pdp-11 I can run it
11:58:07 <atehwa> elliott: ability and will yes, time no; I'm willing to delegate
11:58:07 <nortti> binary translator/syscall emulator for old unix pdp-11 software
11:58:32 <fizzie> Speaking of terminals (earlier), the "search for books" public terminals at Helsinki libraries used to be VT-420s. You could twiddle them to the setup mode if you wanted, and get some higher-resolution things going. (And/or break the communications link if you messed with the settings too much.)
11:58:50 <fizzie> I think they've replaced those with plain old x86 PCs a decade or so ago, though.
11:58:57 <nortti> Vorpal: I use it to run my unix v6 binaries (currently ed and dc)
12:00:15 <nortti> for some reason zzo38's deadfish implementation didn't really run very nicely under my dc...
12:00:31 <Vorpal> you should mention it to him directly?
12:01:09 <fizzie> Also I seem to remember you could quit out from the book-search application, but all that got you was a login screen of some Unix, so it wasn't too exciting. Plus then no-one could again use the terminal.
12:01:42 <nortti> Vorpal: I don't think he thinks maintaining support for unix v6 dc is important
12:01:53 <Vorpal> don't be too sure with zzo
12:02:36 <nortti> I think it would work with unix v7 dc but I am not building another ancient unix from scracth
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12:12:23 <nortti> wow. teco is 700kB in size
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12:15:46 <Vorpal> hm how do you reset zoom level in chrome?
12:16:17 <fizzie> Ctrl-0 sounds familiar.
12:16:58 <fizzie> The "wrench menu" zoom tool doesn't seem to have a thing for it.
12:17:17 <Vorpal> okay these results are strange... I tried a font test in the browser (on windows), turns out that while Segoe UI at 8 pt is larger than Tahoma at the same size, the reverse is true at 9 pt
12:17:49 * Vorpal is trying to find a suitable font to replace Segoe UI with on windows
12:18:10 <Vorpal> because it looks terrible with cleartype off, and with cleartype on everything else looks horrible
12:18:30 <Vorpal> I need a font with the same metric though
12:19:33 <Vorpal> MS Sans Serif isn't even close either
12:21:36 <nortti> umh. can someone help me with TECO?
12:22:54 <Vorpal> hm MS Sans Serif and Arial have almost the same metric, in fact they look almost identical as well. Very tiny difference there.
12:24:11 <fizzie> Vorpal: The Google-commissioned "Open Sans" is I think somewhat similar to Segoe. (Not terribly much so, but somewhat.)
12:24:54 <fizzie> Don't know about character set coverage and such.
12:29:02 <Vorpal> why would google want to make a font?
12:29:48 <Vorpal> anyway it looks slightly blurry to me.
12:29:55 <Vorpal> almost like it is forcing cleartype
12:31:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, on linux I use full hinting and greyscale antialias. I'm okay with no antialias if the font is good for that (like arial, tahoma and MS Sans Serif)
12:31:45 <Vorpal> verdana is perfectly readable without antialias too btw
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12:36:05 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, fuck boss fights, and fuck Psychonauts for having boss fights.
12:36:14 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, which one was a problem?
12:36:28 <Phantom_Hoover> "Nearly finished this area? WELL NOW YOU GET TO PLAY THE SAME FUCKING SECTION OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN"
12:36:51 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh that, it was fairly easy. Just use the lights
12:37:03 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, you know, Google does have some user interfaces. I've heard they've got sites in the web, and this mobile thing called Nordraid or something.
12:37:11 <Vorpal> I didn't die once during that. Also just buy some of those caramel things that restore your HP if you run out
12:37:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh that's fucking great to know in THE MIDDLE OF THE FIGHT.
12:37:28 <Vorpal> you can carry a max of 3, but that helps a lot
12:37:46 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, uh it is in the shop?
12:37:52 <Vorpal> you surely must have noticed that
12:38:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah Vorpal you realise that beyond mentioning the shop about once the game gives you no indication as to what anything does, and of course all the actual items have cutesy little descriptions which don't actually tell you what they /do/.
12:39:10 <Vorpal> err, you can press some button to show a desc
12:39:23 <Vorpal> forgot which one, it does say on the side
12:39:26 <Vorpal> and it is fairly detailed
12:39:47 <Vorpal> (the voice acting for the item needs to complete first)
12:40:09 <Phantom_Hoover> I love how Psychonauts' interface is like this Platonically perfect terrible one.
12:40:12 <Vorpal> sure, it could be more obvious, but it isn't as bad as you make it out to be
12:40:47 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean right at the start you have to spend like 10 seconds watching all the animations they put between you and loading a save.
12:40:47 <Vorpal> agree, the interface could be way better, for example: the main menu interface, while cute, is rather annoying
12:41:11 <Vorpal> and that bed system if you don't select "continue"
12:41:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Not to mention that the controls are painfully obviously a terrible console port.
12:41:49 <Vorpal> I would definitely like more ability keys than the three current
12:42:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Not just that; things like the inventory paging system which basically ground the game to a halt while I looked for help.
12:43:15 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm? It is kind of slow and cumbersome, but why did you look for help?
12:43:55 <Vorpal> one thing that annoy me is that the 2 and z in the key bindings look like they are the same char
12:44:05 <Vorpal> so I was like "how can that be bound to the same key" for a while
12:44:18 <Phantom_Hoover> 1 opens your inventory. 2 opens your abilities. Pressing 2 while looking at your inventory opens abilities... unless you have multiple pages of inventory, in which case it flips to the second page.
12:44:39 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, indeed, slow and cumbersome, but why look for help?
12:44:45 <Phantom_Hoover> If you miss the brief tooltip saying it's 2 to change pages or confuse it for a z?
12:45:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Have fun trying to find out how it works, because the game's certainly not going to tell you.
12:45:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Not on the inventory screen, not in the keybindings, nowhere.
12:45:31 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I /did/ confuse it for a z, until I rebound it to g for a bit, then I went like "hmm, maybe it was actually 2?"
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12:46:16 <Phantom_Hoover> But the point is that the key is really unintuitive, especially on a keyboard, and the game makes no effort to compensate that.
12:47:02 <Vorpal> not really, the keys are laid out for using with one hand, and the other hand on the mouse, 1 and 2 are easy to reach when using wasd to move around
12:47:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, I'm saying that /there is no reason to think that will be the key to change page/.
12:48:00 <Vorpal> well true, I did notice when the game told me the first time
12:48:26 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what I did miss was when it told me to use F to turn around when swinging. Had to google that
12:48:31 <fizzie> I should apparently arrange some time to play that game, I'm all "out" all the time nowadays.
12:48:44 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, then I died, and restarted so it told me a second time
12:49:09 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, you should probably play it on that gamepad you mentioned; you may have gathered that the devs spent absolutely no effort whatsoever on porting the controls.
12:49:32 <fizzie> I've gathered it's a somewhat consoly game, yes.
12:49:57 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, not really /that/ bad. It is not like the game would have told you about turning around while swinging any better on a pad
12:50:22 <Phantom_Hoover> No, but things like the inventory system are clearly geared to a gamepad.
12:50:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Also the targeting system is maybe less abysmal on a gamepad? I don't know.
12:50:54 <Vorpal> I don't own a game pad, so I don't really have the required experience for it
12:51:06 <Vorpal> but yes, the lock on is somewhat annoying.
12:51:18 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, also mouse acceleration vertically is off IMO.
12:52:00 <Vorpal> also I think I selected inverted up/down, except in first person view it is the opposite of third person view now
12:52:01 <Phantom_Hoover> The game clearly doesn't want me to do it, why else would they make it so hard?
12:52:21 <fizzie> I don't really have "gamepad reflexes" down very well, I've done so little with it. It's got those sticks, I think they're kinda important nowadays.
12:52:21 <Vorpal> not sure if it is inverted if you didn't change it from the default though
12:53:49 <Vorpal> I wonder how that new Wii U thing with the touch screen is going to affect console ports, are we going to get better mapping of abilities perhaps?
12:54:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal when have you ever heard of a console port of a Wii game
12:54:41 <Taneb> Alien Syndrome had a PSP port
12:54:49 <fizzie> What was that thing with a touchscreen in the back?
12:54:50 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well no, but other vendors are going to copy their idea if it is successful. Like the motion control thingy. The Playstation Move, Kinect and so on
12:55:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, no that is the PS Vita iirc
12:55:40 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, err, right
12:56:00 <fizzie> Anyway, I find it hard to believe people are going to be looking at the Wii U touchscreen much; it sounds rather tiresome to keep flipping focus between the in-hand mini-screen and the few-metres-away TV.
12:56:05 <Taneb> Wasn't World of Goo orignally for the Wii?
12:56:11 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, played Bastion yet? That is a good console port.
12:56:25 <Vorpal> Taneb, surely it must have been for mobile?
12:56:40 <Vorpal> it seems so obvious that it should be a touchscreen or mouse
12:56:43 <fizzie> Taneb: "World of Goo was first released both for Windows and WiiWare in North America on October 13, 2008."
12:56:46 <Taneb> Windows and WiiWare originally
12:56:47 <Vorpal> I can't even see a console controller working
12:56:52 <Taneb> I knew it was Wii early on
12:57:13 <Vorpal> WiiWare, is that like xbox live?
12:57:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, you... do know that the Wii remote works as a pointer, right?
12:57:38 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so yes then
12:57:40 <Taneb> XBox live arcade or somehting
12:57:41 <fizzie> It's like a stylus except with a big gap. :p
12:57:52 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm, I was under the impression that the accuracy wasn't all that good
12:57:59 <Vorpal> never used a Wii though myself
12:58:16 <Phantom_Hoover> It's decent, although if you put it against a window it's a bitch to use.
12:58:22 <Vorpal> doesn't it need recentering all the time iirc?
12:58:43 <Vorpal> watched a bit of an LP of skyward sword, and the guy kept recentering a lot
12:59:17 <Phantom_Hoover> I went mad trying to play Twilight Princess in Ireland because the room was laid out so the TV was right in front of a sweeping vista of some hills and sheep and a few reflective surfaces, and the weather decided to clear up just for me.
13:01:16 <fizzie> World of Kinect-Goo would let you get your hands dirty, I suppose.
13:01:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, does it actually exist?
13:01:45 <Vorpal> anyway kinect has horrible accuracy from what I heard
13:02:03 <fizzie> Apparently not officially, but there's a video of people doing it.
13:02:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Dwarf Fortress adventure mode on the Kinect would be surprisingly elegant.
13:02:12 <fizzie> "The position of your hand is mapped to the cursor, and then we recognize you opening and closing your hand to grab and release the goo."
13:02:38 <fizzie> (Using the PC version and the Kinect SDK, of course.)
13:02:46 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and that is?
13:03:01 <Vorpal> (or isn't there a punchline here?)
13:03:36 <fizzie> The video seems somewhat flailing-aroundy, but maybe not quite as much I expected. It's at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0j1YsDmAXA
13:04:12 <fizzie> Not a precision controller by any means.
13:05:19 <Vorpal> I heard the PS Move has pretty good accuracy though
13:05:36 <Vorpal> never really seen it used much
13:07:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Did not realise World of Goo had such an overwrought soundtrack.
13:07:42 <oklopol> "<Phantom_Hoover> OK, fuck boss fights, and fuck Psychonauts for having boss fights." yeah why do they have to make them so excruciatingly easy
13:08:06 <fizzie> Did not realize World of Goo had a soundtrack at all.
13:08:26 <fizzie> oklopol: Only humans count in game discussions, sorry.
13:08:55 <Vorpal> actually all the boss fights (so far, haven't quite finished the game yet) are quite easy once you figure out what the trick is
13:09:44 <Vorpal> I think the one against Dogan's brain in the brain tumbler experiment was probably the trickiest one so far
13:10:30 <Phantom_Hoover> It's "do it again, stupid" gameplay, even once you've learnt the trick.
13:11:03 <Vorpal> Do you refer to that the bosses doesn't vary their attacks very much or what?
13:11:26 <Phantom_Hoover> No, I'm referring to how if you die in a boss fight you're reset to the start and you can't save.
13:12:03 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well, buy that candy to avoid that
13:12:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Repeating the same things over and over again isn't 'challenging', it's annoying.
13:12:22 <Vorpal> it will refill your health when you run out, and you can carry three of them
13:12:27 <Vorpal> so more than enough usually
13:13:15 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, it has some really creative level design though. Especially with the mad people in the asylum.
13:13:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, have you entered the mind of Fred Bonaparte yet?
13:13:49 <Phantom_Hoover> It normally makes up for all the flaws, but when the game sticks a giant, annoying wall in the way of seeing more level design?
13:14:25 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, right, I think you can do those minds in any order though
13:14:56 <Phantom_Hoover> I have this terrible suspicion that if I leave Gloria's mind I'll have to redo everything.
13:15:50 <Vorpal> possibly, you could make a save and try it though
13:15:57 <Vorpal> and there are those teleport creatures
13:17:26 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, anyway that boss fight is not all that difficult. And you could use the piece of bacon to "regroup at HQ", go out and buy some candy and go back in by talking to Ford Cruller. Should get you back near it at least.
13:17:39 <oklopol> fizzie: you do realize you have beat me in games on multiple occasions
13:18:00 <fizzie> oklopol: I recall no such thing.
13:18:16 <Vorpal> not sure what happens to figments when using that option though, since there is a visual effect when using it that looks like figments flying away from you
13:18:22 <Vorpal> never tried it inside a mind in fact
13:18:28 <fizzie> I even gave up that Dot Action 2 thing at some point.
13:19:26 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, anyway if you start the fight with full health it is easy. Which level are you at? I was probably around 50 or so at that point I think
13:21:52 <oklopol> fizzie: there was that game where you were a stick figure, and then there was that game where you were a robot which you programmed around town.
13:22:29 <fizzie> oklopol: I vaguely recall the second one, it was that thing with the tiles. But I don't remember what happened. And I don't remember a stick figure.
13:23:01 <oklopol> which i guess we were roughly equally good at and Deewiant was incredibly slow but did some of the really hard puzzles on the first attempt, so comparison was hard. and everyone not finnish of course sucked ass.
13:23:22 <oklopol> stick figure was that game with a hundred levels where you could just move left and right and jump
13:23:30 <oklopol> and the other was robozzle or something
13:23:32 <fizzie> That's Dot Action 2, exactly.
13:23:42 <fizzie> And I think you got further in it than I.
13:23:56 <oklopol> maybe you stopped near the end
13:24:06 <fizzie> There was the labyrinth thing at level ninety-something, I gave up at that, or soon after.
13:24:19 <Vorpal> <oklopol> stick figure was that game with a hundred levels where you could just move left and right and jump <-- platformer?
13:24:29 <fizzie> Vorpal: Dot action 2. Certainly you remember it.
13:24:37 <Vorpal> don't think I played it
13:24:39 <oklopol> oh right, i think i did that on the second attempt, might have quit if i had been less lucky
13:26:41 <fizzie> Vorpal: Maybe so. You apparently asked about it in 2009, and ehird explained what it's like.
13:26:56 <fizzie> It's a web flash thing.
13:27:43 <fizzie> I did dig out the all-levels codes from the swf file, though.
13:28:01 <fizzie> It's got eight extra levels after the first 100 normal ones.
13:28:26 <Vorpal> so in fact it has 108 levels?
13:28:53 <fizzie> Yes, but the final 8 don't really count, because you get access to all of them after beating level 100.
13:32:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh so you can access the other 100 in any order you want?
13:33:12 <fizzie> You can access the 8 in any order, after beating level 100.
13:33:33 <fizzie> You can access level 100 after beating level 99, you can access level 99 after beating level 98, and so on.
13:34:03 <fizzie> So the last 8 aren't part of the ordinary progression. (Also, they're in a completely different level list.)
13:34:19 <fizzie> [2008-11-23 14:40:39] < fizzie> I did a half-hearted attempt at 93, but missed one blue dot in the lava room.
13:34:23 <fizzie> I got at least that far.
13:36:05 <fizzie> It might have been at that point that oko blazed past me and I gaved up.
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13:44:10 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
13:45:11 <elliott> 00:45:25: <oerjan> CURSE THIS WALL THAT HIDES THE VENUS TRANSIT FROM ME
13:45:19 <elliott> i thought it wasn't visible in Europe anyway.
13:45:48 <Taneb> elliott, that wall is oerjan's floor
13:47:34 <elliott> 07:25:14: <Deewiant> Meanwhile, I still don't know who he was. Maybe now's the time to check Wikipedia.
13:47:39 <fizzie> Sure it was; quite a lot of people watched it in Finland.
13:47:54 <elliott> fizzie: Well, ISTR it wasn't visible in the UK, and what's the difference?
13:48:11 <Taneb> elliott, you may have been thinking of the last one
13:48:19 <fizzie> "Visible in its entirety from Hawaii, Alaska, Australia, New Zealand, the Pacific and Eastern Asia, with the beginning of the transit visible from North America and the end visible from Europe"
13:48:20 <elliott> Taneb: This one was visible???
13:48:20 <Taneb> Or being confused by cloud cover
13:48:26 <elliott> I looked at all the websites and all!
13:48:56 <fizzie> I didn't watch it, but in Helsinki there was a break in the cloud cover for approximately a minute.
13:49:10 <fizzie> It looked like a tiny dot in front of a glowy thing (Sun).
13:49:13 <elliott> 07:43:24: <Phantom_Hoover> Well the Quatermass Experiment had 5 million viewers at its peak and it came out in '53, and that's got to be at least a tenth of the UK population at the time.
13:49:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Should I watch that BTW I've always been tempted by the cool name.
13:49:33 <elliott> fizzie: Did you stare at the sun???
13:49:45 <elliott> I stare at the sun quite a lot. Possibly not the best thing I do.
13:49:47 <fizzie> No. I didn't have any protective eqibblement.
13:50:04 <fizzie> http://astro.ukho.gov.uk/nao/transit/V_2012/world_2012.png -- the northern tip of Finland I think saw the thing in its entirety, that's what the white part I think means.
13:50:18 <fizzie> Here in "the south" it was just partially visible.
13:51:12 <fizzie> Apparently it looked like this: http://hs10.snstatic.fi/webkuva/taysi/960/1305572999091?ts=1053
13:51:24 <elliott> It just looks like the other spots.
13:51:29 <elliott> Are we sure Venus really exists?
13:51:37 <fizzie> It's a bit darker, I think.
13:52:16 <elliott> 10:01:20: <fizziew> Aw, the Kielipankki corpus files have mode 600, I can't check what's the longest actually-used word in that.
13:52:21 <elliott> fizzie: Is that to prevent COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT?
13:52:51 <fizzie> elliott: It's either that, or just that no-one else than Vesa has actually bothered to touch the original files, so no-one has noticed he hasn't made them group-readable.
13:53:03 <fizzie> Anyway, there'll be another Venus transit in 2117, it's not like it was a once-in-a-lifetime thing.
13:53:21 <elliott> fizzie: Who gave Vesa root? Who is even Vesa anyway???
13:53:28 <elliott> Also, I don't anticipate living that long. :(
13:53:44 <fizzie> I don't think Vesa has root, but the files are owned by him since he presumably put them there.
13:54:08 <elliott> Oh, I was assuming 600 with owner root.
13:54:19 <elliott> For Some Values Of Reason.
13:54:33 <fizzie> I don't think Vesa even works here any more.
13:55:32 <elliott> fizzie: Well, they probably fired em. After all, there are better graphics modes these days.
13:55:34 <fizzie> Yeah, he's that guy who works at Rosetta Stone somewhere in the US nowadays.
13:56:18 <elliott> Well, I can't say the stone is particularly high resolution.
13:56:20 <fizzie> (Rosetta Stone does language-learning software that's somewhat notable.)
13:57:05 <elliott> I considered "pirating" it once, but it looked ineffective.
13:57:27 <fizzie> It's won awards and all. It has Dynamic Immersion technology.
13:57:38 <fizzie> (I don't know what that means.)
13:58:42 <oklopol> fizzie: does it say whether i finished the game?
13:59:04 <fizzie> oklopol: I think you did. At least you were in level 98 or so at that point.
14:00:06 <oklopol> okay seems hard to believe i'd have stopped then.
14:00:30 <fizzie> [2008-11-23 15:34:24] < oklopol> bleh i'll do 98 later tonight.
14:00:37 <oklopol> especially as i have this feeling that the last levels were surprisingly easy
14:00:43 <fizzie> Then it was about cyphers for God to solve.
14:00:59 <fizzie> [2008-11-23 22:49:41] < oklopol> can someone solve 99 for me?
14:01:03 <elliott> oklopol: You're playing Dot Action 2 again???
14:01:14 <oklopol> have to check whether i solved it
14:01:22 <elliott> fizzie: What started this.
14:01:22 <fizzie> Oh, 99 was a maze too.
14:01:35 <fizzie> elliott: I blamed oklopol for being too good in games.
14:01:55 <elliott> fizzie: Isn't Dot Action 2 the bestest?
14:04:02 <fizzie> I played like seven levels before I remembered I'm at work.
14:04:47 <elliott> 10:18:07: <nortti> Vorpal: you can disable that
14:04:48 <elliott> 10:18:14: <Vorpal> nortti, where?
14:04:48 <elliott> 10:18:21: <Vorpal> trying to look for that setting atm
14:04:49 <elliott> 10:18:45: <nortti> Vorpal: about:config . you can also switch to old tab behaviour from there
14:04:53 <elliott> Vorpal: You can just press an X on the screen or something.
14:05:01 <elliott> Or do it in about:config if you want to waste a bunch of time, I guess.
14:05:02 <fizzie> But it's "hide" and not "disable"!
14:05:34 <fizzie> "If you are concerned about your privacy, you can turn this feature off completely: In the Location bar, type about:config ..." -- support.mozilla.org.
14:05:47 <fizzie> Since they say it like that, certainly there's some valid privacy concerns involved.
14:06:09 <fizzie> (I don't know what they could be.)
14:06:50 <nortti> it tracs what sites you visit the most?
14:07:16 <fizzie> I'm pretty sure it tracks history no matter what you set "browser.newtab.url" to.
14:07:31 <fizzie> It's not like the ATTAKCER couldn't just type in "about:newtab" to see the page.
14:07:39 <elliott> You mean my browser KNOWS WHERE I GO ON THE INTERNET????
14:07:59 <fizzie> There was a network problem. A moment.
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14:09:43 <fizzie> I suppose if you're sitting next to an ENEMY it's faster for him to new-tab + click-the-unhide to see your PORN SITES than it would be for him to new-tab and type-"about:newtab".
14:09:50 <elliott> 10:34:24: <fizziew> oklopol: I suppose you're the same oklopol who's been commenting at http://www.retroprogramming.com/2009/07/perverse-code-deviant-forth.html in 2009?
14:09:56 <elliott> fizzie: That's impomatic's blog, by the way.
14:10:06 <elliott> 15:09 <fizzie> I suppose if you're sitting next to an ENEMY it's faster for him to new-tab + click-the-unhide to see your PORN SITES than it would be for him to new-tab and type-"about:newtab".
14:10:07 <fizzie> Oh, I did not realizibble.
14:10:14 <elliott> Just use IE's "InPrivate" browsing mode!
14:10:29 <elliott> It's designed for gifts but — and don't tell anyone this — it ALSO WORKS FOR PORNOGRAPHY.
14:11:32 <elliott> fizzie: So is fizziew like fizzie but it doesn't start a console window?
14:11:56 <fizzie> (Actually it's 'w' for 'work'.)
14:12:06 <elliott> Well, you know. Work is all about the GUIs.
14:12:18 <elliott> Since you're a speech recognition researcher, you never do anything valuable like program in a terminal and so on.
14:12:54 <elliott> I see the whole "Do-Not-Track by default thing" has died.
14:13:26 <elliott> Seemingly it violates the specification. Sort of.
14:14:01 <fizzie> I vaguely remember "They" had some demands about how Do-Not-Track must user-interfacistically and defaultically behave before they'd agree to actually (pretend to) obey it.
14:14:21 <elliott> "(1) Today we reaffirmed the group consensus that a user agent MUST NOT set a default of DNT:1 or DNT:0, unless the act of selecting that user agent is itself a choice that expresses the user’s preference for privacy. In all cases, a DNT signal MUST be an expression of a user’s preference. []…]"
14:14:34 <elliott> But you could always just have it be an on-by-default thing in the installer or something.
14:14:42 <elliott> Just like you "choose" to agree with EULAs.
14:14:54 <elliott> (Also s/[]…]/[…]/. [sic] on that.)
14:15:06 <elliott> fizzie: The Do-Not-Track thing is a bit silly. It's like the evil bit.
14:15:07 <fizzie> It can be also on by default if your browser has a privacy theme, because then "that user agent is itself a choice".
14:15:23 <elliott> How did people decide it was a good idea, exactly?
14:15:50 <fizzie> It is a "step toward putting you in control", according to Mozilla.
14:16:13 <elliott> (Don't you just love ad companies?)
14:18:26 <fizzie> EFF's all about Do Not Truck, I've seem mentions in their blag often.
14:19:11 <fizzie> If you set the Do Not Truck header to "1", Google Image search will not return images of trucks, even if they would otherwise match your query. (Not true.)
14:21:26 <elliott> 11:42:20: <fizzie> Sourceforge "user review" for SPIM, the MIPS(32) simulator: "One of the best FTP clients I've tried for GNU/Linux and Windows"
14:21:26 <elliott> 11:42:28: <fizzie> I, uh. Okay.
14:22:10 <elliott> 11:49:43: <fizzie> http://blog.agdunn.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/xspim1.png -> http://sourceforge.net/projects/spimsimulator/screenshots/313041 it is a bit of a modernization.
14:22:10 <elliott> 11:50:33: <nortti> imo the old was much better
14:22:25 <elliott> Gregor: I bet HackEgo still uses bash.
14:25:05 <HackEgo> PID TTY TIME CMD \ 272 ? 00:00:00 init \ 274 ? 00:00:00 sh \ 276 ? 00:00:00 ps \ 277 ? 00:00:00 cat
14:25:44 <nortti> elliott: what shell should HackEgo use then?
14:26:07 <elliott> nortti: You said ash, I think.
14:26:39 <nortti> that or sash bwahahaha
14:27:22 <elliott> 12:29:02: <Vorpal> why would google want to make a font?
14:27:33 <elliott> (More generally, the Chromium OS thing.)
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14:31:47 <nortti> (If you don't know what it is like to use sash download http://fpaste.dy.fi/oB7/dl That is the better version)
14:32:26 <nortti> that is staticaly linked sash 3.7 with patches I use in my own minidistro
14:33:56 <elliott> 12:57:20: <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, you... do know that the Wii remote works as a pointer, right?
14:34:00 <elliott> (It is kind of inconvenient.)
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14:36:10 <elliott> 13:11:26: <Phantom_Hoover> No, I'm referring to how if you die in a boss fight you're reset to the start and you can't save.
14:36:43 <fizzie> elliott: The FTP client review is, incidentally, only six hours old (was three when I pasted), and written by a "Titus Higginbotham".
14:37:45 <nortti> elliott: why did you say "I bet HackEgo still uses bash." to Gregor?
14:38:23 <elliott> 13:28:01: <fizzie> It's got eight extra levels after the first 100 normal ones.
14:38:26 <elliott> And they're all impossible.
14:38:52 <fizzie> I think one of them was not too bad. But mostly they were horrible.
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14:39:15 <elliott> I might have completed one, I think.
14:39:17 <fizzie> Also rather fanciful. There was a picture of a cat or something.
14:39:27 <elliott> quintopia: Whoa, a *new* spelevator?
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14:40:44 <elliott> 05:56:53: <zzo38> asiekierka_: Did you add the XKCD variation of Deadfish? If so, why?
14:40:50 <elliott> wait, it was not in the original?
14:41:15 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Deadfish&diff=10505&oldid=9188 what, he ruined it
14:42:21 <elliott> indeed, asiekierka did add it.
14:42:30 <elliott> probably it should have its own article, then
14:43:29 <elliott> 09:43:46: <Taneb> Gregor, that is getting a Like
14:43:32 <elliott> Taneb: I thought you "deleted".
14:43:41 <Taneb> elliott, I have two accounts
14:43:46 <Taneb> One of which is now "deleted"
14:44:03 <Taneb> I made the second when the first one had too many friends to load the chat bar
14:44:24 <elliott> Gregor: "Very cool serendipitous interaction. You should have asked to send the pic to you."
14:44:39 <elliott> "What is this do you think you are Fabio now?"
14:44:44 <elliott> Facebook! I love Facebook.
14:44:50 <elliott> I think I will listen to that Thank You Facebook song later.
14:44:54 <elliott> To show how much I love Facebook.
14:46:45 <elliott> 19:20:08: <kmc> the main clojure guy really Gets It in terms of the relationship between functional and imperative programming
14:47:04 <elliott> kmc: Gets It to the point where its STM implementation just errors out noisily at runtime if you happen to try and do anything "unsafe" in a transaction?
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14:49:32 <nortti> wow. my minidistro compiles userspace in 1m 45s on my machine
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14:54:53 <elliott> 20:56:57: <ion> David Rees and Blackwing Pencils: Artisanal Pencil Sharpening http://youtu.be/spMaP-_Cq_8
14:54:55 <elliott> see http://www.artisanalpencilsharpening.com/
15:02:29 <elliott> 21:26:19: <fizzie> You don't get exp when knocked-out, so Crono spends quite a lot of time unconscious.
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15:07:49 <elliott> fizzie: How much did you pay for the Bundle?
15:07:51 <elliott> Vorpal: How much did you pay for the Bundle?
15:07:53 <elliott> Taneb: How much did you pay for the Bundle?
15:07:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: How much did you pay for the Bundle?
15:07:57 <elliott> shachaf: How much did you pay for the Bundle?
15:08:07 <Taneb> elliott, what makes you think I've bought it
15:08:13 <elliott> Taneb: Why wouldn't you have?
15:08:29 <Taneb> Just spent a lot of money; have little left; already have Amnesia
15:08:58 <elliott> Everyone loves those games.
15:09:09 <elliott> 22:25:38: <fizzie> Hey, it's that IPv6 launch day today. (Well, yesterday already, as seen from here.)
15:09:12 <elliott> fizzie: esolangs.org is TAKING PART.
15:09:22 <Taneb> Does Humble Bundle accept cash?
15:11:50 <elliott> 22:59:50: <Vorpal> $ host 193.0.14.129
15:11:50 <elliott> 22:59:50: <Vorpal> 129.14.0.193.in-addr.arpa domain name pointer k.root-servers.net.
15:11:50 <elliott> 22:59:51: <oonbotti> ERROR:Word not found
15:11:53 <elliott> nortti: This prefix seems suboptimal.
15:12:43 <nortti> elliott: what do you suggest then?
15:12:59 <elliott> I don't know. There aren't many left.
15:13:05 <elliott> "oonbotti: " would work. :p
15:13:21 <nortti> hmm. is \ used for anything?
15:14:22 <fungot> \o| |o| |o/ \m/ \m/ |o/ \o/ \o| \m/ \m/ \o| |o| |o/
15:14:26 <Taneb> Pietbot uses ), when it is alive
15:14:35 <Taneb> (I've reserved ) for this channel)
15:14:49 <nortti> elliott: it meant "\ " without the quotation marks
15:15:10 <elliott> I suppose that could work, yes. Ooh, ooh, how about the Euro symbol? :p
15:16:02 <nortti> (I have it at AltGr-3)
15:18:14 <elliott> You're not... uh... in international waters?
15:20:04 <nortti> ½ would also be pretty nice
15:20:49 <elliott> Oops, that ~ one is ASCII. TOO ASCII.
15:21:20 <elliott> Well, you know what shachaf says.
15:21:24 <elliott> ASCII silly question, get a silly ANSI.
15:21:28 <elliott> ASCII silly question, get a silly Unicode.
15:24:40 <elliott> "I am using kaspersky internet security 2012 full version. It is the king of antiviruses."
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15:37:22 <elliott> http://ompldr.org/vZTVrdQ/stackoverflow.com-q-10931271.html
15:37:38 <oonbotti> : ; WORDS FORGET + DROP 2DUP SWAP DUP NIP ROT OVER MOD >R * - / . R@ R>
15:38:21 <elliott> Ooh, there's another. http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10930338/buying-a-so-account (It's identical.)
15:39:40 <nortti> someone wants to buy stack overfrow account. but why?
15:40:09 <elliott> Anyway, it even says it in the post! To "start good with the community".
15:40:23 <nortti> why are the reps so important
15:40:24 <elliott> I'm sure I could make, like, $3.
15:40:31 <elliott> nortti: To start good with the community!
15:40:45 <elliott> (Also you can vote to delete posts and stuff? I'm sure that's important to start good with the community.)
15:45:18 <nortti> #rawirc PRIVMSG oonbotti :#rawirc PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo
15:46:31 <oonbotti> elliott: #esoteric is now implemented by the way
15:49:01 <elliott> #esoteric isn't the least common thing to start lines with in #esoteric, I think.
15:49:49 <nortti> elliott: I can remove that if you want
15:51:08 <nortti> well at least it doesn't post ascii goatse
15:52:26 <nortti> ok. I'll implement that
15:53:14 <Taneb> My quest to right unreadable Haskell code has hit a slight hitch
15:53:28 <nortti> if you don't want it I don't implement it
15:53:36 <Taneb> (I think phonetically)
15:53:43 <elliott> I think ASCII goatse might not be the ideal thing to spam the channel with, no.
15:53:44 <fizzie> elliott: The logo of a nearby driving school has gotten a lot more suggestive since the Internet age: http://www.haaganautokoulu.fi/wp-content/themes/thematic/img/header.jpg
15:54:03 <elliott> fizzie: I wonder what the triangle is.
15:54:20 <Taneb> So, instead of printing the fibonacci sequence, it prints segfaults
15:54:33 <Taneb> And that's what happen when I get confused
15:54:34 <fizzie> Possibly it tries to be a traffic sign, we have many triangular ones.
15:55:11 <elliott> Haskell programs should never segfault unless you use unsafe things like the FFI.
15:55:16 <elliott> You should report a GHC bug.
15:55:19 <Taneb> It uses unsafe things
15:55:51 <Taneb> Hold on, let me get it to the thing that doesn't work like it doesn't work
15:56:35 <elliott> (If it's just unsafePerformIO, it still probably shouldn't segfault.)
15:56:38 <nortti> fizzie: :D. On my school there was a band called "Go at sea"
15:56:47 <Taneb> elliott, unsafeCoerce
15:57:15 <Taneb> http://hpaste.org/69662
15:57:38 <nortti> it was pretty funny when whole school starts shouting "Goatsea! Goatsea!"
15:57:39 <Taneb> Most of the unsafeCoerces can be replaced with ids
15:58:42 <elliott> Taneb: That i looks susceptible to the monomorphism restriction.
15:58:47 <elliott> Perhaps give it a type signature.
15:59:00 <elliott> (At the top level, not in the expression, I think.)
15:59:15 <nortti> fizzie: the bands logo has two hand ripping a hole in a cloud
16:01:52 <fizzie> nortti: Heh. I think I've heard Haagan Autokoulu being referred to as "Goatse-autokoulu".
16:02:14 <Taneb> I think pair may be wrong
16:03:15 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:06:53 <nortti> fizzie: they had to change band's name though. (I suspect one of the teachers ran into goatse.) They renamed it "Meet spin"
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16:12:06 <Taneb> elliott: I think the problem is, I have no idea what type fibs should be
16:12:27 <elliott> Taneb: It may very well have no type.
16:12:36 <elliott> When in doubt, try giving it the type "a". :p
16:13:29 <elliott> "Reason for Moderation Work [...] Wants to leave the crowd of normal users and become special member of Stack Overflow with The Diamond Privilege."
16:15:12 <elliott> fizzie: Don't you miss NSQX?
16:18:51 <elliott> He hasn't edited or come here in ~days, at least.
16:19:07 <elliott> Also I still have to feature a new language, like, days ago.
16:19:20 <Taneb> Go with eodermdrone
16:22:45 <elliott> That's not even a candidate.
16:23:47 <Taneb> BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T NOMINATE IT
16:24:44 <nortti> WHY DO YOU SPEAK IN CAPITAL LETTERS?
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16:24:56 <Taneb> BECAUSE I AM ENRAGED
16:25:10 <Taneb> elliott, added top-level type signatures, still segfaults
16:25:44 <Taneb> The only one with a useless type signature was fibs2
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16:44:53 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.2581
16:48:52 -!- Taneb has joined.
16:51:28 <Taneb> It still doesn't work
16:58:07 <lambdabot> zzo38: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
16:59:00 <lambdabot> Taneb asked 21h 43m 6s ago: Why is "otherwise" not in Prelude.Generalize? It seems a silly thing to leave out
16:59:00 <lambdabot> Taneb asked 20h 49m 26s ago: What's the point of the application$ rule? The only time it'd get fired, the instance of Function for (i -> o) i o already does it
16:59:00 <lambdabot> Taneb asked 6h 50m 26s ago: Could you give me a copy of the next version of Prelude.Generalize so I know what'll be in it, please?
16:59:38 <zzo38> Taneb: "otherwise" is not useful at all
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17:01:10 <Phantom_Hoover> "Fan Dumb: 2DBoy released the game with no DRM whatsoever because they thought they could trust their audience. Their reward was a 90% pirate rate.
17:01:40 <Phantom_Hoover> It still feels really weird when people write stupid things on TV Tropes because I've unified it into one 'voice', the same as WP.
17:01:57 <Taneb> zzo38, it makes guards look better than using True
17:02:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You have a unified voice for TV Tropes and it *doesn't* typically say stupid things?
17:02:26 <elliott> (Also Wikipedia the Person is the funniest person ever.)
17:04:40 <elliott> The best part is that they occasionally break down and start jibbering nonsense.
17:04:51 <elliott> The other best part is that they NEVER LAUGH.
17:05:09 <elliott> Also they keep disclaiming everything they write.
17:05:25 <elliott> "Bill Gates is gay. (I don't have a citation, though.)"
17:05:37 <elliott> "Some people (who? I'm not sure.) say Bill Gates is gay."
17:06:08 <Phantom_Hoover> No I prefer how they completely skip around their own presence in the world.
17:06:28 <elliott> "Some people have accused Wikipedia of inaccuracy."
17:07:05 <zzo38> Taneb: I happen to disagree
17:07:24 <Taneb> Okay, it's your library
17:10:42 <Taneb> Actually, the third would be the most productive
17:11:40 <zzo38> OK, I will send what it currently is, but even these I might change before next release
17:11:55 <Taneb> This is really so I can figure out an order
17:12:17 <zzo38> The purpose of the "application$" rule is just things I do not completely understand the rewrite rules
17:12:30 <Taneb> I'll trust you on that
17:12:34 <zzo38> Also, if you want to reorder the exports you can do so
17:12:40 -!- aloril has joined.
17:12:46 <Taneb> Yeah, I need to know what's going to be in them first
17:12:55 <zzo38> http://sprunge.us/ZTIc
17:15:05 <Taneb> Could you explain what Part1 etc do?
17:15:25 -!- monqy has joined.
17:15:26 <zzo38> Taneb: It is a generalization of fst, snd, first, second
17:15:54 <Taneb> @tell monqy poor monqy hi
17:20:38 <elliott> monqy: you missed `ansi code fun'
17:20:52 <Taneb> Right, I'm going to write all the things on cards, and order them
17:23:00 <oonbotti> #echo, #welcome, #cat, #ls, #rm, #writefile, #cc, #exec, #msg, #readmsg, #forth, #loadforth
17:24:19 <oonbotti> monqy: Welcome to this completely useless channel!
17:24:25 <nortti> monqy: #welcome is for #esoteric-en
17:24:30 <monqy> welcome to you too oonboote
17:24:43 <monqy> is #esoteric-en a thing
17:24:53 <monqy> is it a good thing
17:25:47 <elliott> monqy: did you know coppro plays nethack 4 in hugeterm. this was uncovered a few days ago. "things you missed"
17:25:58 <elliott> when i started playing nethack a few years ago
17:26:21 <elliott> monqy: ais523 has also said that hugeterm doesn't matter if you have a non-ttyrec recording format that lets others spectate with any terminal size.
17:27:02 <nortti> elliott: all of oonbottis public (for everyone to use) are listed in #help. commands not listed in #help require you to be listed in .botops
17:27:05 <monqy> but can you watch in "real time" at any size
17:27:13 <elliott> monqy: yes once he gets around to implementing it
17:27:23 <monqy> i dont want hugeterms taking up my whole screen when i spec
17:27:31 <monqy> well if i can watch in any size when i watch
17:27:34 <monqy> hugeterm doesnt matter to me
17:27:40 <monqy> thats really the only reason i hate hugeterm
17:27:51 <elliott> say someone played roguelikes exclusively locally
17:27:58 <elliott> that would stil lbe wrong!
17:28:03 <monqy> it's the locally that's wrong there
17:28:36 <elliott> it's not AS bad if it doesn't affect other people but
17:28:43 <elliott> if you're going to use a >80x24 terminal might as well just not use a terminal in the first place!
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17:29:43 <elliott> monqy: well, terminals are kind of dumb
17:29:46 <elliott> I'm not sure if you've noticed
17:29:55 <monqy> faketerms are also dumb
17:30:15 <elliott> depends how you define "fake"term
17:30:30 <elliott> I don't think it's unreasonable to have a screen that shows a grid with the elements being unicode characters
17:30:34 <monqy> at least with a terminal i get my beautiful font and can copy text from it !!!!
17:30:36 <elliott> you can make things less termy elsewhere
17:30:43 <elliott> monqy: you can copy text from a good faketerm too!
17:30:50 <elliott> and you could set a font with it etc.
17:30:54 <monqy> and get www. underlined for me
17:31:00 <elliott> do you like www. being underlined
17:31:03 <monqy> in crawl krakens make screen a mess
17:31:11 <elliott> screenshot it at yr earliest opportunity
17:31:26 <monqy> elliott: i make urls into links and the thing i use for that underlines them
17:31:35 <monqy> havent felt a need to un underline them
17:31:44 <elliott> bad entry vault idea: spell out http://crawl.develz.org/ with dungeon features
17:32:08 <elliott> i guess some monsters, a book, some wands
17:32:42 <elliott> too bad it'd break the next turn
17:32:55 <monqy> oh right the books
17:32:59 <elliott> because the :/. would be movable-onto
17:32:59 <monqy> you could put unseen horrors there
17:33:09 <monqy> or place the items in walls
17:33:23 <monqy> if you're ridiculous
17:33:24 <elliott> that's almost as bad as rock worms
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17:33:50 <monqy> oh or you could use mimics
17:33:55 <monqy> just'd have to worry about the .
17:34:11 <elliott> entry vault where you're surrounded by inept floor mimics
17:34:13 <monqy> finally a good reason for mimics
17:35:39 <elliott> is it possible to get next to the monsters in that entry vault with all the species
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17:36:24 <monqy> if you dig the grates
17:36:45 <elliott> are they made out of plain rock or something tougher? I forget
17:37:15 <elliott> oh there's an actual thing
17:37:32 <monqy> basically transparent rock but you can smite-target through them
17:37:33 <elliott> ok remind me to scum for that entry vault and a D:1 wand of digging/disint sometime
17:37:44 <monqy> you could also grab a rod of ice or something
17:38:17 <elliott> does that have smite-targeting?
17:38:25 <elliott> that would be nice and risk-free
17:38:49 <monqy> you'd want some evo for cloud longevity
17:39:05 <elliott> guess i'll check out the .des, not sure if there's anything expful enough to bother scumming it
17:39:27 <monqy> but they won't go down easily
17:39:38 <elliott> does it matter, if they can't attack you?
17:39:42 <elliott> just set up a macro and spam it for a year
17:39:45 <monqy> maybe if you're a spriggan with dispel and some form of mp regen
17:39:56 <monqy> 10:39:42 <elliott> just set up a macro and spam it for a year
17:39:59 <elliott> oh, because it'll heal faster than you can regen mp?
17:40:01 <monqy> assuming they dont outheal you
17:40:26 <elliott> this would probably involve too much startscumming for me to bother with
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17:41:00 <monqy> assuming light you'd also have to scum pandoora for rod of destruction [ice] !!
17:41:04 <monqy> or something like that
17:41:12 <elliott> the idea is to do it before leaving D:1
17:41:16 <elliott> so you "breeze through the rest"
17:41:19 <elliott> but I guess diving to Pandoora is probably ok
17:41:43 <monqy> ar has the best evo skill of any background
17:41:56 <monqy> sp has good evo apt too
17:41:59 <elliott> i guess that works then!!!
17:42:06 <elliott> Wn could theoretically give more though right
17:42:34 <elliott> (is there a way to check those in henzell)
17:42:36 <monqy> idk but ar has a more useful starting kit for diving and is more reliable
17:42:38 <elliott> (the background skills, I mean)
17:42:58 <Taneb> zzo38, you're not exporting (!!!)
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17:55:15 <ion> 5/5, would watch again. http://youtu.be/ertsv-KRnVE
17:55:38 <nortti> #sendmsg #esoteric-en foo
17:56:04 <monqy> #sendmsg #esoteric hello
17:56:17 <ion> #sendmsg #esoteric hi
18:00:08 -!- glogbackup has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:00:31 <nortti> #sendmsg is for botops only
18:01:43 <nortti> monqy: botop for oonbotti
18:02:04 <monqy> am I a botop for oonboote
18:02:08 <nortti> if you want to make oonbotti say funny things you can use #echo
18:02:33 <nortti> monqy: yes but you are not in .botops file so you are not for oonbotti
18:03:23 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm fairly sure I saw a Nancy Drew game on sale on Steam a while back,
18:04:34 <elliott> look at what you have done, monqy
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18:28:35 <Taneb> You know, the word "esoteric" is related to the word "in"
18:29:03 <elliott> why does that always happen to me
18:29:13 <elliott> standard conversational rhythm
18:29:19 <elliott> that tells us when to break the silence
18:29:19 <Taneb> Because Phantom_Hoover is right and we are the same person?
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18:33:07 <oklopol> you already live in the same town, if you also happened to be the same person, personally i would get a bit suspicious.
18:33:19 -!- shachaf has joined.
18:34:36 <Taneb> oklopol, shut up, you're the same person as oklofok
18:34:53 <Taneb> Me and elliott are allowed to be the same person if we want,
18:36:13 <Taneb> And you live in Finland! That's like, the same town as half the channel!
18:36:24 <HackEgo> Finland is a European country. There are two people in Finland, and at least nine of them are in this channel. Corun drives the bus.
18:36:51 <elliott> we don't have an entry on hexham? seriously?
18:37:38 <Taneb> `learn Hexham is a European town. There are nine people in Hexham, and at least two of them are in this channel. Taneb looks after the ham.
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18:41:18 <Taneb> elliott, can you look at http://sprunge.us/HQIN?haskell again?
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18:42:09 <elliott> Taneb: I really don't know, but I suspect it's the unsafeCoerce that's messing it up. :p
18:42:22 <Taneb> Yes, I presume so.
18:42:43 <Taneb> My one that computed powers worked fine, but that didn't have any loops?
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18:55:05 <zzo38> Taneb: I am exporting (!!!) although the export list is in a messy order. Feel free to change the order of the export list to whatever you want
18:55:23 <Taneb> zzo38, ah, didn't spot it
18:55:34 <elliott> -Fixed a bug that sometimes caused fleeing monkeys to leap into lava if the player was fire-immune, or into chasms if the player was levitating.
18:55:58 <monqy> i should try this new version sometime
18:57:20 <elliott> monqy: are you telling me you don't like your monkeys to leap into lava or chasms
18:57:42 <elliott> the changes seem "pretty minor" (http://brogue.createforumhosting.com/announcing-brogue-v1-6-3-t384.html)
18:58:02 <elliott> "I'm glad some developers are capable of listening to their players and scaling back OOD nonsense, as opposed to declaring it "interesting" and making it even worse." hmm, this person in /r/roguelikes seems bitter
19:00:52 <Sgeo> Having someone tell me that Clojure is lazy
19:00:59 <Sgeo> Person has no Haskell experience
19:01:40 <mroman> Clojure probably has some lazy structures like lists?
19:01:50 <kmc> i don't think clojure has implicit laziness
19:02:00 <kmc> but any language with closures can emulate laziness easily
19:02:06 <Sgeo> mroman, correct
19:02:18 <elliott> I think "implicit laziness" is a silly term, because "explicit laziness" is just "any language with closures", like you said.
19:02:36 <elliott> If you have to rewrite every data structure to get "lazy" effects, it's useless, so I'd rather just call "implicit laziness" "laziness".
19:02:37 <kmc> well, you need closures + mutation to get laziness as opposed to just non-strict semantics
19:02:45 <elliott> (Or even better, "non-strictness". But that's pedantic.)
19:03:07 <elliott> kmc: Sure, but that isn't really what people think of when talking about that :)
19:04:17 <kmc> i think it's interesting/funny you can't implement laziness in a strict pure functional language but you can in an impure one
19:04:50 <elliott> Well, I am not sure about "can't".
19:04:55 <elliott> You can do it, it'll just be more indirect.
19:05:11 <elliott> evaluate world thunk (\world' thunkValue -> ...)
19:05:16 <elliott> Where world is your cache of thunk values, and so on.
19:05:34 <elliott> "Implementing laziness" is already indirect emulation, it just takes more of it in a pure language.
19:05:57 <Taneb> Is it possible to truly emulate laziness in a language that is already lazy?
19:06:37 <Taneb> And with that bombshell, goodnight!
19:06:42 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
19:18:22 <elliott> mroman: you have a very nonstandard definition of "reverse".
19:21:55 <Phantom__Hoover> find me a temperature monitor that can do an overlay for fullscreen applications that isn't rivatuner (it's a complete mess and the documentation is inconsistent with what turns up on the screen)
19:22:32 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, linux or windows?
19:26:14 <Phantom__Hoover> (I keep getting what may or may not be GPU overheats when playing Human Revolution.)
19:27:28 <Sgeo> http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/repeatedly
19:27:32 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: How did you rule out CPU overheats?
19:27:49 <elliott> Sgeo: What's wrong with that?
19:27:50 <Sgeo> "Takes a function of no args, presumably with side effects, and
19:27:51 <Sgeo> returns an infinite (or length n if supplied) lazy sequence of calls
19:28:02 <elliott> Sgeo: What's wrong with that?
19:28:04 <Sgeo> The reliance on side-effects to do interesting things
19:28:22 <elliott> Yes, Clojure is an impure language. Are you surprised?
19:28:53 <Phantom__Hoover> elliott, and anyway ruling out either would require an overlayable temperature monitor.
19:33:44 <Phantom__Hoover> Wait if it was a CPU overheat why would it only happen in fullscreen.
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19:46:38 <mroman> elliott: How should I formulate it then?
19:51:14 * Sgeo wonders if X-Setup is the tool he remembers from when he was younger
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19:56:51 <oerjan> 13:45:11: <elliott> 00:45:25: <oerjan> CURSE THIS WALL THAT HIDES THE VENUS TRANSIT FROM ME
19:56:51 <oerjan> 13:45:19: <elliott> i thought it wasn't visible in Europe anyway.
19:57:05 <oerjan> (1) i was paraphrasing zzo38 (2) it actually was visible in norway a bit after midnight, modulo clouds
19:57:28 <oerjan> and much of the rest of europe, iirc that wp map
19:58:47 <oerjan> in fact i think there maybe was a short time after about 6 am when i could have seen it
19:59:27 <oerjan> (it was cloudy most of the night, but a very sunny day)
20:00:11 <oerjan> and by night i mean before 6 am more or less, the sun is up earlier than that
20:01:00 <oonbotti> elliott: it was visible in northern europe
20:01:32 <olsner> it's... visible everywhere that has sunlight at some point during the transit?
20:01:41 <oerjan> olsner: you'd think :P
20:02:00 <olsner> think? I don't think I can think
20:02:15 <oerjan> well technically there is probably somewhere that only got the part of the sun disk where venus wasn't...
20:03:16 <oonbotti> I was going to look at it at 4:29 but I forgot to set the alarm ...
20:03:38 <zzo38> What is the calculation for Venus transit being visible?
20:03:44 <olsner> I wasn't out of bed until noon anyway
20:04:59 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:05:17 <mroman> bffb is part of the languages which are palindromic turing complete ;D
20:05:24 <oerjan> elliott is such a good listener.
20:05:32 <oerjan> also my l key is getting uppity
20:05:46 <zzo38> Apparent diameter?
20:06:58 * oerjan thinks there is probably a crumb under it
20:07:33 <oonbotti> should I stop sending messages throught my bot?
20:07:51 <mroman> because brainfuck is usually bf?
20:08:08 -!- elliott has joined.
20:08:28 <oerjan> i think nortti is a bot anyway, same last 3 letters in finish
20:08:49 <nortti> oerjan: I didn't notice that
20:09:16 <nortti> and no. I am not a bot
20:09:27 <oerjan> you _would_ say that, wouldn't you.
20:09:53 <calamari> mroman: I'm saying bfb vs bffb.. both are palindromes
20:10:07 <oerjan> yeah, elliott is just clever enough to switch the letters around a bit
20:10:20 <oerjan> elliott: also read logs
20:10:29 <elliott> so wtf is your example abou
20:11:28 <oerjan> obviously visually mirrored palindromes should count in some way
20:11:55 <shachaf> It's a "mirror palindrome"
20:12:01 <shachaf> Which is even better than the regular kind.
20:12:13 <fizzie> fungot: Maybe you should call yourself "fungotti"?
20:12:15 <fungot> fizzie: what have i done wrong here?" at http://paste.lisp.org/ display/ fnord) and 600 bytes fnord i think.
20:13:17 <mroman> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=BFFB&action=historysubmit&diff=32714&oldid=32712 <- there. happy ;)?
20:13:29 <oerjan> sadly http://paste.lisp.org/display/fnord does not exist
20:13:33 <olsner> I read that as fizzie wanting help with "600 bytes fnord" of lisp code
20:14:05 <shachaf> elliott: You should read/see _Rosencrantz & Guildenstern Are Dead_!
20:17:13 <oonbotti> irssi's alias system is pretty nice. I can just type /obmsg channel text instead of /msg -freenode oonbotti #sendmsg channel text
20:18:00 <nortti> fungot: are you a bot?
20:18:01 <fungot> nortti: fnord. fnord että fnord se mulle moi vai vihaako se mua. lol.)
20:18:42 <oerjan> how clever to answer in the secret finnish code
20:18:42 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
20:18:52 <olsner> is fungot in finnish mode now?
20:18:53 <fungot> olsner: that explains it
20:19:28 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
20:19:37 <fungot> Selected style: ff7 (Full script of the game Final Fantasy VII)
20:20:00 <nortti> fungot: what do you have to say?
20:20:01 <fungot> nortti: magic change! we must set a trap... heh, heh... steel! get out. you haven't done anything.
20:20:02 <oerjan> fungot: is that the one which the sword alone cannot stop?
20:20:03 <fungot> oerjan: the one laughing last! everyone is here...? what if she meant. i don't care what the shinra train? what are you!!
20:20:06 <fungot> olsner: we know you're here!? i tell you all the workings of the cetra to leave the rest to ol' cid! we can use a tent and/ or select *save*.
20:20:30 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
20:20:40 <olsner> I think the star was there to indicate the currently selected style
20:20:55 <nortti> fungot: what do you find in the logs?
20:20:56 <fungot> nortti: if you really need to go to
20:20:57 <oerjan> olsner is getting pretty good with that thar thinking
20:21:24 <olsner> oerjan: I think I can pretend to think
20:21:41 <nortti> olsner: pretend to think
20:21:53 <oerjan> Does it please you to think you can pretend to think?
20:22:12 <nortti> ^rainbow NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
20:22:17 <olsner> nortti: I think you something something fungot
20:22:18 <fungot> olsner: not /forum, apparently!
20:23:15 <nortti> but actually thinking about it having eliza/doctor bot would be fun
20:23:36 <olsner> at least not *that* fun
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20:34:10 -!- oerjan has set topic: wading | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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20:42:08 <oonbotti> Hello... I'm glad you could drop by today.
20:42:22 <nortti> #eliza Hello... I'm glad you could drop by today.
20:42:22 <oonbotti> Hello, how are you feeling today?
20:42:34 <nortti> #eliza Hello, how are you feeling today?
20:42:35 <oonbotti> Hello... I'm glad you could drop by today.
20:43:10 <nortti> Vorpal: new commandchar is \
20:43:13 <Vorpal> nortti, what language is the bot itself written in?
20:43:41 <Vorpal> hm I should use ¥ as a command char if I write a bot
20:43:56 <Vorpal> since I keep hitting that instead of $ on this keyboard
20:44:11 <Vorpal> so altgr-6 rather than altgr-4
20:44:39 * oerjan suggests the command prefix "hi"
20:45:02 <Vorpal> hm didn't someone write an implementation of some language in apache rewrites and it was faster than the reference implementation in python?
20:45:12 <Vorpal> I forgot who did it and what language it was about
20:45:16 <olsner> which would result in us wading in hi, appropriately enough
20:45:49 -!- Vorpal has set topic: wading in hi | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
20:45:55 <nortti> my bot consists of 4 files: ircbot.py, botcmd.py, sforth.py and eliza.py
20:45:55 <olsner> Vorpal: yeah, I did one of thue... but IIRC they were approximately the same speed in the end
20:46:13 <Vorpal> olsner, oh, where did the "faster" bit come from then?
20:46:42 <olsner> well, I just don't recall at all what the exact result was, if I said faster it should've been faster or I'd have been lying
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20:49:22 <oonbotti> Please consider whether you can answer your own question.
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20:49:36 -!- Zuu has left.
20:50:09 <oonbotti> : ; WORDS FORGET + DROP 2DUP SWAP DUP NIP ROT OVER MOD >R * - / . R@ R>
20:50:27 <nortti> Vorpal: get me better AI with pytho implementation
20:50:38 <Sgeo> Is Clojure often used in a work environment?
20:50:44 <Vorpal> nortti, how do you define something like a loop using those words?
20:50:53 <Sgeo> If so, that means I could learn an actually-decent job-relevant language
20:50:54 <olsner> Sgeo: it is in a Clojure work environment
20:51:01 <nortti> Vorpal: I don't. it usn't nearly complete
20:51:16 <Sgeo> But I don't want to learn Java
20:51:21 <olsner> any and all languages should be job-relevant, for the kind of job you want to be having
20:51:24 <Sgeo> Although I know the basics of classes and interfaces
20:51:28 <olsner> (except python and ant)
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20:52:32 <nortti> Vorpal: only differences from yesterday are addition of 2DUP and ROT and implemeting MOD in forth
20:52:42 <olsner> Vorpal: hmm, I don't seem to have put the "benchmark" results in writing anywhere on like my blog either
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20:53:58 <Vorpal> nortti, I think you need HERE, POSTPONE, DOES>, IMMEDIATE right?
20:54:13 <Vorpal> err and something that ends up in a JMP I guess
20:54:39 <Vorpal> olsner, speaking of ant, what about maven?
20:54:46 <Vorpal> I have heard of it, never used it
20:54:56 <Vorpal> when I used java I mostly only used eclipse
20:54:56 <olsner> Vorpal: like ant, but with more xml, I think
20:55:03 <Vorpal> and let that do whatever the hell it wants
20:55:13 <Vorpal> olsner, does eclipse use ant?
20:55:50 <olsner> I think eclipse can if you want to (otoh, why on earth would anyone?), but eclipse mostly does everything its own way
20:55:57 <Vorpal> hm in the project I have here it seems to be invoking android SDK tools rather, so I guess that is nothing like the standard build setup
20:56:17 <Vorpal> oh well, I don't have any non-android projects handy
20:56:50 <Vorpal> (and why would I use eclipse if I wasn't developing for android? NetBeans crashes far less often!)
20:57:29 <Vorpal> olsner, btw it is amusing but eclipse on windows is far less stable than on linux
20:57:50 <olsner> you could e.g. use vim... the android tools kind of push you into using ant for all Java parts of the build though
20:57:53 <Vorpal> at least when working on android projects
20:58:09 <Vorpal> eh I need a GUI layout designing tool :P
20:58:15 <Vorpal> the netbeans support for android lacks that
20:58:54 <olsner> you can write the layouts in XML too
20:59:07 <Vorpal> olsner, yes but that would be much more painful
20:59:11 <Vorpal> it would involve writing XML
21:00:18 <Vorpal> eclipse on windows just like to randomly bug out in strange ways... Usually restarting it helps. Things like showing incorrect build errors in the list but not in the file (or vice versa) and no at all errors in that file after restarting eclipse.
21:00:35 <Vorpal> or just null pointer exception in eclipse itself
21:01:05 <Vorpal> olsner, anyway, so far I will take a crashing eclipse over writing XML manually
21:01:26 <Vorpal> but I wonder what working with the NDK will be like.
21:01:35 <Vorpal> I hope not, it seems painful to setup
21:02:13 <olsner> it was possible to get it working magically with eclipse's CDT, but unfortunately I have no memory of how difficult it was to get working in the first place
21:02:42 <olsner> you can even do on-device debugging with that stuff ... once you get it working :)
21:03:05 <Vorpal> olsner, you should have written a guide for yourself. I always do that when I'm doing messy embedded stuff
21:03:25 <Vorpal> like getting the environment for developing native code for RCX setup
21:03:44 <Vorpal> that was a PAIN, had to compile old native gcc and use it to compile old cross compiler gcc
21:03:48 <Sgeo> Why does Freenode's webchat have a captcha?
21:03:54 <Sgeo> Any bot could just connect directly
21:04:01 <Vorpal> (the target I needed was dropped in GCC 4)
21:04:03 <nortti> yay. I got my c compiler to parse throught itself
21:04:16 <olsner> well, I decided it wasn't *really* sufficiently nice to be worth doing again anyway, I'll just continue that project using editor and terminal
21:04:17 <Vorpal> nortti, you wrote your own C compiler?
21:04:18 <nortti> Vorpal: what target did you need?
21:04:29 <Vorpal> nortti, trying to remember, h8300-coff iirc
21:04:33 <Vorpal> or something weird like that
21:04:39 <Vorpal> nortti, the issue was the coff bit
21:04:55 <Vorpal> nortti, so old binutils too iirc
21:04:56 <nortti> Vorpal: yes. I am aiming for under 64kB binary size when ran on elks
21:04:59 <olsner> and the eclipse stuff mostly set up the android-like build system in such a way that you can build it outside eclipse
21:05:07 <Vorpal> nortti, oh so not your own parser :P
21:05:32 <nortti> Vorpal: I also wrote my own parser
21:05:33 <Vorpal> the issue with writing a C compiler is the bloody parser
21:05:40 <Vorpal> okay, now I'm impressed
21:05:56 <olsner> hmm, or maybe I just recreated the android project files from scratch on my other computer... it wasn't a terribly complicated project, so that would've worked too
21:06:12 <nortti> Vorpal: well it chockes on K&R style function definitions
21:06:24 <Vorpal> <olsner> well, I decided it wasn't *really* sufficiently nice to be worth doing again anyway, I'll just continue that project using editor and terminal <-- well I need the thing to work on linux and windows. I can't work exclusively on linux. So that would make the NDK even more painful I bet
21:07:19 <Vorpal> doing just java development is easy enough though
21:07:46 <olsner> android on windows is just like android on linux, but you add cygwin
21:08:04 <Vorpal> nortti, I assume you target C11?
21:08:13 <olsner> (and pain, of course, but that's what happens when you develop on windows)
21:08:27 <nortti> Vorpal: I tried to use yacc and lex but after yacc threw errors on even example code I said fuck it and wrote my own on C. my compiler only has parser currently so it isn't really that usefull. and no. I target c90
21:08:28 <pikhq_> olsner: Writing C for Android is also pain, so.
21:08:36 <Vorpal> olsner, well it is not me as such working on windows, I'm not the only one working on this project
21:08:41 <Vorpal> anyway I doubt we will need the NDK
21:08:46 <kmc> C for Android is not bad
21:08:52 <kmc> but don't expect it to be a POSIX system
21:09:02 <nortti> I've heard that bionic libc is bad
21:09:12 <kmc> how does it deviate from ISO C?
21:09:16 <Vorpal> indeed, all we might potentially need is C for heavy number crunching
21:09:31 <Vorpal> it is kind of real time, and would involve threading too so hm
21:09:33 <olsner> heavy number crunching on Android
21:09:33 <nortti> kmc: libc is bit broken
21:09:46 <Vorpal> olsner, I'm doing indoor positioning using WLAN.
21:09:53 <Vorpal> olsner, no way around it
21:10:20 <olsner> just do it in the cloud
21:11:31 <nortti> Vorpal: I am aiming to replace bcc after I found out it is too big to run on ELKS
21:11:53 <Vorpal> olsner, 1) lag (yes really, we tested this! On a moving user, the lag from the round trip is noticeable) 2) connection issues would kill it (you might not be connected to the WLAN in question, you could use mobile data)
21:12:10 <Vorpal> and mobile coverage might be poor in some areas where this could be used
21:12:14 <nortti> Vorpal: Embeddable Linux Kernel Subser (basicaly old linux kernel on intel 8086)
21:12:35 * olsner goes back to finding that hello world in brainfuck I used to benchmark that brainfuck in thue interpreter as interpreted by the two thue implementations
21:12:41 <Vorpal> nortti, what is it usually compiled with?
21:12:55 <kmc> ah yes, the lack of useful wchar_t is annoying
21:12:59 <kmc> even though wchar_t is broken on principle
21:13:02 <Vorpal> nortti, then how can it be too large?
21:13:05 <kmc> i think that's fixed in latest NDK
21:13:24 <Vorpal> kmc, people uses wchar_t?
21:13:25 <pikhq_> Just because it's a largely *bad* interface does not excuse them for not supporting it.
21:13:39 <nortti> Vorpal: you can't build anything on ELKS host but bcc has ELKS target
21:13:42 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Used extensively in Win32, actually.
21:13:43 <Vorpal> kmc, btw, what about that new fancy renderscript thing I saw in the SDK docs...
21:13:48 <Vorpal> I haven't tried it yet
21:14:07 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Because the only UTF Microsoft supports is UTF-16.
21:14:20 <Vorpal> pikhq_, but how does it handle chars that need surrogate pairs?
21:14:25 <pikhq_> And wchar_t on Win32 is 16 bit.
21:14:31 <Vorpal> iirc wchar_t is fixed size?
21:14:37 <olsner> despite all your complaining, the libc and C on Android is overall among the most sane you can find on a mobile platform
21:14:53 <Vorpal> pikhq_, anything less than UCS4 and you need to handle variable size chars!
21:15:05 <pikhq_> Either programs simply don't make the assumption that wchar_t is actually fixed with, or it's actually UCS-2.
21:15:23 <Vorpal> olsner, the java environment on Android isn't that bad. Btw what about C# on Windows Phone?
21:15:27 <pikhq_> olsner: Yes, but the only alternatives in use are glibc and uclibc.
21:15:39 <Vorpal> C# in general isn't all that bad, about as bad/good as Java IMO
21:15:46 <pikhq_> olsner: This is like saying "for all your complaining, getting hit in the nuts is much less bad than getting shot in the head."
21:15:53 <nortti> olsner: well it is pretty good for mobile platform but not stardard compliant. It is based on old BSD code
21:16:03 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Also, anything *in general* you need to handle variable size chars.
21:16:05 <Sgeo> Vorpal, C# has LINQ
21:16:10 <Sgeo> That alone makes it better than Java
21:16:14 <elliott> 22:13 <pikhq_> Just because it's a largely *bad* interface does not excuse them for not supporting it.
21:16:15 <Vorpal> Sgeo, you don't have to use LINQ
21:16:20 <Vorpal> oh right, you like that? huh
21:16:26 <elliott> it's not like wchar_t is very common
21:16:32 <Sgeo> It's a touch of functional programming
21:16:43 <pikhq_> The more egregious omissions are in POSIX.
21:16:55 <pikhq_> Such as largely broken pthreads.
21:17:13 <Vorpal> pikhq_, hm but there are native Linux programs below. I seen them from the adb shell prompt
21:17:20 <Vorpal> so how could they get away with that
21:17:20 <elliott> Vorpal: there's nothing wrong with linq
21:17:28 <pikhq_> Vorpal: They wrote their own userspace.
21:18:02 <Vorpal> elliott, fair enough, I only really used it to wrap SQL, and for that it is often just an annoying broken abstraction (sure /when/ it works it is nice, but often it doesn't do what I want)
21:18:08 <nortti> also does anyone know whose idea was to make android toolbox so horrible
21:18:25 <Vorpal> pikhq_, heh, I thought it was busybox
21:18:36 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Nope, they have a no-GPL-in-userspace policy.
21:18:56 <nortti> Vorpal: they created their own broken clone of busybox called android toolbox
21:19:13 <Vorpal> well that explains why some of the commands seem unusually limited in terms of flags
21:19:20 <Vorpal> even more some than in busybox
21:20:09 <nortti> I hope that they would eventualy replace that with toybox
21:20:15 <Vorpal> btw, does anyone actually use Windows Phone?
21:20:36 <Vorpal> what an utterly ungooglable name
21:20:51 <nortti> Vorpal: Rob Landley's new project. google linux toybox
21:20:58 <olsner> Vorpal: I've seen one person with a windows phone phone
21:21:35 <Vorpal> olsner, same actually. And that guy was evaluating the user experience on different mobile operating systems
21:21:41 <Vorpal> so that doesn't really count
21:22:24 <Vorpal> nortti, "September 7, 2006 - Project launched, first commit to mercurial archive."
21:22:29 <Vorpal> I guess elliott means that
21:22:30 <elliott> http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=fsvo
21:22:47 <Vorpal> oh he asked what it meant: For some values of
21:23:45 <nortti> elliott: well I usually refer to busybox as Landley's old project and to toybox as Landley's new project
21:23:48 <Vorpal> hm what is GCC C11 support like I wonder
21:26:37 <nortti> Vorpal: I use toybox commands in place of busybox commands when I can (basicaly everything that is compiled with default config except df (no -h), tail (no -number that tazpkg needs), head (look at tail) and ls (no -h, no color coding))
21:28:36 <Vorpal> what do you have against busybox?
21:29:12 <Vorpal> also I use a bloated GNU userland :P (I love my ls & grep --color=auto ;)
21:29:55 <Gregor> pikhq_: How will my 3TB hard disk cope? D-8
21:30:07 <Vorpal> nortti, right, but is there any advantage to toybox compared to bb?
21:30:29 <nortti> Vorpal: smaller, cleaner aproach, BSD style license
21:30:42 <pikhq_> Gregor: I'm sorry, that has no business being larger than the smallest possible binary.
21:30:55 <pikhq_> Gregor: Like, really, int main(){return 0;}
21:31:07 <elliott> i remember when i cared about the size of the true binary
21:31:09 <pikhq_> When you make *that* that large...
21:31:30 <kmc> /bin/true --help
21:31:33 <Vorpal> elliott, unless you are doing embedded development there really isn't much of a reason to care
21:31:34 <Gregor> pikhq_: Dude, I want true --help in Swahili.
21:31:40 <pikhq_> It's really a statement of how much *friggin' terrible code* there is out there.
21:31:41 <olsner> or maybe I've forgotten the magic incantation to make it go
21:32:03 <Vorpal> olsner, what is broken?
21:32:49 <olsner> afaict it's not actually doing almost anything of the interpretation that it should be doing
21:34:06 <nortti> my /bin/true is 7 bytes
21:34:43 <Vorpal> nortti, the disk block size being what?
21:35:14 <Vorpal> nortti, yes but on a normal file system it will still take 4 KB
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21:35:16 <olsner> Vorpal: but the python thing is still running after 15 minutes
21:35:33 <Vorpal> olsner, what program where you running in it?
21:35:49 <nortti> Vorpal: du -ach says both are 0 bytes
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21:36:15 <olsner> python > thue > brainfuck > hello world
21:37:00 <nortti> Vorpal: my ~/bin/true was generated with touch ~/bin/true; chmod 755 ~/bin/true and my /bin/true is symbolic link
21:37:35 <Vorpal> nortti, okay, and what?
21:37:58 <olsner> vs mod_rewrite-thue > brainfuck > hello world ... which if you think about it is not entirely fair because the thue program is actually compiled into mod_rewrite rules rather than being interpreted
21:38:06 <nortti> Vorpal: why did you say what?
21:38:18 <Vorpal> nortti, what is your point?
21:38:53 <nortti> Vorpal: that my true really uses only the disk space of i-node
21:39:18 <olsner> hmm, come to think of it the thue to mod_rewrite compiler could be made self-hosting quite easily
21:39:49 <nortti> self hosting thue... do want
21:39:50 <Vorpal> nortti, but the symlink must point somewhere
21:40:07 <Vorpal> nortti, and that file must take more than an inode
21:40:20 <olsner> nortti: well, the compiler is a fairly simple set of string rewrite rules, could be written in anything
21:40:28 <olsner> ... but it's currently written in sed for convenience
21:40:54 <nortti> -s+at is true for /bin/true but not for ~/bin/true which is just empty file
21:41:13 <Vorpal> linux will run an empty file?
21:41:28 <nortti> Vorpal: yes. It is treated as shell script
21:41:50 <Vorpal> nortti, well then, the memory overhead is much worse than with a real true. You load the entire sh!
21:41:58 <nortti> actually old unixes used empty file as /bin/true
21:42:15 <nortti> Vorpal: yes but my executable is 0b :P
21:42:29 <Vorpal> nortti, but that doesn't matter. Disks are WAY larger than the RAM
21:42:57 <Vorpal> sure .text and .rodata are shared, but a shell is going to have a lot of .data and .bss too
21:43:10 <nortti> Vorpal: my sh is busybox, my /bin/true is busybox. I can't see how it would load more to memory
21:43:16 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Correction, a *GNU* shell is going to have a lot of .data and .bss too. :)
21:43:57 <Vorpal> pikhq_, my /bin/sh is dash iirc
21:44:05 <Vorpal> [25] .data PROGBITS 0000000000618300 00018300 00000200 0 WA 0 0 32
21:44:15 <Vorpal> that is MUCH more than a simple /bin/true would have
21:44:26 <Vorpal> [26] .bss NOBITS 0000000000618500 00018500 00002bd0 0 WA 0 0 32
21:44:36 <pikhq_> A glibc-linked /bin/true pulls in rather a lot more.
21:44:50 <Vorpal> pikhq_, indeed, but why would it need to be that
21:45:22 <pikhq_> 1559742 18024 19184 1596950 185e16 /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libc-2.13.so
21:45:52 <pikhq_> All that gets mapped in if you dynamic link a program...
21:45:58 <Sgeo> I'm starting to wonder if Clojure might be a sufficiently good language for me to be happy, that could also be directly career relevant
21:46:16 <Vorpal> anyway, the point is moot on a non-embedded system. You have more than enough RAM and disk space usually. This system I'm typing on is a laptop with 2 GB RAM and 250 GB disk. And I'm not worried. Even less so on my desktop with a total of 4 TB disk iirc (this is split by dual booting and RAID 1 though, so 1 TB in practise for linux) and 16 GB RAM
21:46:47 <Vorpal> actually more than 4 TB, I forgot my SSD
21:46:58 <nortti> ok. now I use toybox true which loads 83kB toybox to memory instead of 540kB busybox
21:47:09 <Vorpal> pikhq_, on my desktop or laptop?
21:47:25 <Vorpal> pikhq_, laptop is a Core 2 Duo
21:47:30 <Vorpal> so the cache size is silly
21:48:09 <Vorpal> pikhq_, anyway L1 doesn't really matter here, /bin/true is not going to run long enough for it to be useful. L1 is useful for tight loops!
21:48:15 <Vorpal> /bin/true doesn't loop
21:48:27 <pikhq_> Anyways, this is all serving more as a *proxy* for something much more relevant.
21:48:42 <Vorpal> pikhq_, and I can't check on my desktop (Core i7 Sandy Bridge) since it is booted to windows atm
21:48:51 <pikhq_> To get a large /bin/true like that the *code* is large and hard to understand, needlessly.
21:49:04 <Vorpal> now that is a much more relevant point
21:50:05 <Vorpal> in which case a simple #include <stdlib.h>\n int main(void) { return EXIT_SUCCESS; } makes most sense
21:50:23 <Vorpal> unless POSIX says /bin/true should return 0, in which case you can drop that include
21:50:48 <nortti> I wrote my own true: main(){return 0;}
21:50:55 <elliott> Vorpal: return 0 is guaranteed to work like return EXIT_SUCCESS IIRC.
21:51:05 <elliott> (But return 1 is not guaranteed to work like return EXIT_FAILURE.)
21:51:14 <nortti> it compiles to 348B binary using otcc
21:51:20 <Vorpal> nortti, didn't you use a symlink before?
21:51:28 <Vorpal> you changed your mind?
21:51:36 <Vorpal> also which linker did you use?
21:51:44 <pikhq_> http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/coreutils.git/tree/src/true.c This is not as bad as a lot of *other* things in coreutils, but still a bit much.
21:51:49 * elliott thinks it's perfectly reasonable for true to support help, fwiw.
21:52:03 <elliott> Why be inconsistent, UI-wise, just because a program's main purpose is trivial?
21:52:06 <nortti> Vorpal: I used otcc. it has builting cpp, codegenerator and linker
21:52:08 <pikhq_> atexit (close_stdout);
21:52:17 <pikhq_> *WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT*
21:52:26 <kmc> i have this notion that most GNU code is terrible
21:52:31 <kmc> even though the programs are useful and work ok
21:52:31 <Vorpal> pikhq_, uh, perhaps they were supporting some old system that was broken?
21:52:53 <pikhq_> Vorpal: But has working atexit?
21:53:02 <elliott> pikhq_: instead of assuming there's no reason and they're just dumb, I'd probably assume there is a good reason and I just don't know it
21:53:02 <Vorpal> pikhq_, stranger things have happened
21:53:21 <kmc> i don't always call longjmp, but when i do it's from an atexit handler
21:53:22 <Vorpal> check the log for the file maybe
21:53:27 <elliott> (not that I'm saying GNU code is good in general)
21:53:28 <Vorpal> or look up the docs for the function
21:53:49 <Vorpal> since it isn't in that file
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21:54:13 <Vorpal> pikhq_, http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/coreutils.git/commit/src/true.c?id=309c1c3e47655f610c3c169bc19de9d4a3fc92a1
21:54:14 <nortti> Vorpal: althought you might not want to use otccelf (otcc that produces elf files. I used that not otcc) for real purposes because it is IOCCC winner
21:54:42 <elliott> pikhq_: consider true > file
21:54:50 <elliott> needing to close stdout seems more plausible then
21:54:51 <pikhq_> Vorpal: It's from the giant chunk of portability-by-invoking-undefined-behavior-special-cased called gnulib.
21:55:26 <Vorpal> nortti, winner which year?
21:55:41 <Vorpal> pikhq_, right, but why
21:56:04 <olsner> does google index the logs of #esoteric?
21:56:19 <nortti> Vorpal: I don't remember
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21:57:37 <Vorpal> nortti, didn't you say otcc was the one you wrote?!
21:57:54 <Vorpal> or was that a different one?
21:57:56 <elliott> olsner: why did you ask, out of curiosity
21:57:59 <nortti> Vorpal: no. I have my own c compiler that is unnamed
21:59:01 <Vorpal> Gregor, how does your JIT dc from IOCCC work?
21:59:13 <Gregor> Quite well, thank you.
21:59:14 <Vorpal> also I can't find the download link
21:59:36 <Vorpal> where the hell is the download link from the last IOCCC!?
21:59:36 <Gregor> Vorpal: http://ioccc.org/years.html#2011_richards
21:59:40 <pikhq_> There appears to be no documentation for why that function exists at all.
21:59:47 <nortti> Vorpal: if you can stand otcc's c dialect it otccelf produces very small files
21:59:53 <pikhq_> Given that, I am inclined to call it cargo culting.
22:00:17 <elliott> nortti: If you can stand cat(1)'s assembly dialect it produces very small files.
22:00:20 <pikhq_> Also, the function in question depends on functions that need to be special cased for each libc.
22:00:21 <Vorpal> nortti, I can only stand using C99 or later
22:00:32 <olsner> elliott: wanted to find some logs, specifically the one where I say mod_rewrite is faster than python
22:00:43 <Gregor> elliott: s/machine code/& embedded in a binary format/
22:01:09 <olsner> "<olsner> it's faster than python now, by 15%"
22:01:31 <nortti> implementation of what?
22:01:32 <olsner> google found http://tunes.org/~nef//logs/esoteric/11.04.14
22:01:48 <Vorpal> Gregor, gah I don't want to unravel that. How do you do it? Precompile functions and copy them in?
22:02:03 <olsner> otoh, I think that was with the version that was 10% off the correct answer
22:02:13 <Gregor> Vorpal: My policy remains firm. I'll help you figure it out if you put in a bit of effort, I won't just tell you.
22:03:19 <Vorpal> Gregor, sec, needs to load the code on a desktop monitor
22:03:39 <elliott> Gregor: You told me. Does that mean I'm special?
22:03:43 <Gregor> I'm going to go take a shower, so if you're onto something I'll help you then.
22:03:52 <Gregor> elliott: You asked before IOCCC X-D
22:03:56 <Vorpal> Gregor, meh I'm likely going to sleep soon
22:04:00 <Gregor> And hence, before my policy existed.
22:04:02 <Vorpal> elliott, can you tell me?
22:04:47 <elliott> Vorpal: just devote a bit of effort to it
22:04:52 <elliott> it's not that hard to figure out some of it
22:04:59 <elliott> i don't understand this laugh
22:04:59 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm half asleep
22:06:23 <Vorpal> also I will be busy then
22:06:36 <Vorpal> or I could just grep the logs
22:06:40 <Vorpal> for when Gregor told you
22:06:48 <Vorpal> elliott, unless that was outside this channel?
22:07:13 <Vorpal> elliott, so why not just tell me. You are a nice guy after all. Right?
22:07:23 <elliott> nice enough to not ruin a puzzle for you, yes
22:08:30 <Vorpal> well I'm going to try to build Gregor's program under Windows. Using MSVC 2010!
22:08:38 <Vorpal> it should be portable right?
22:08:58 <Vorpal> not sure about alloca though
22:09:45 <olsner> well, does it require alloca or was that an optional feature?
22:10:12 <nortti> Gregor: it doesn't compile with bcc ;(
22:10:47 <Vorpal> nortti, tried the various flags?
22:11:01 <Vorpal> olsner, it requires it
22:11:28 -!- Lumpio- has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:12:22 <nortti> Vorpal: yes. it dies on either missing mmap.h or MAP_PRIVATE and MAP_ANON
22:12:47 <Vorpal> read the code to figure out the defines
22:12:54 <ais523> elliott: just got -6 against death_to_defence with a defence program :)
22:12:59 <ais523> and am now furiously constant tweaking
22:13:09 <ais523> looks like defence may be back on after all
22:13:14 <lambdabot> myndzi: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
22:13:18 <elliott> ais523: did you see quintopia updated spelevator?
22:13:31 <ais523> I knew he was doing it, I didn't see the final update
22:13:34 <nortti> Vorpal: It results in missing symbols
22:13:38 <elliott> it now gets 50 points or something
22:13:47 <ais523> which is good, but not leaderboard-topping good
22:13:55 <ais523> quintopia: what sort of updates did you apply?
22:14:09 <elliott> ais523: how does the defence program work?
22:14:33 <ais523> I'll publish it all at once
22:14:43 <ais523> but it has some similarities to shudder programs
22:14:49 <ais523> and other similarities to lock programs
22:15:03 <elliott> ais523: I was just asking for the strategy info, not the code :p
22:15:26 <ais523> it's basically formed of periods of shuddering and periods of clearing
22:15:40 <ais523> and runs out of time on long tapes, and has a lot of potential for constant tweaking
22:17:59 <Gregor> <Vorpal> read the code to figure out the defines // or, read the hints file X-D
22:18:20 <elliott> ais523: it would be nice to have a generic constant-tweaker program
22:18:26 <elliott> that's a much simpler thing to write than a full evolver
22:18:44 <ais523> I already have one, what do you think I'm tweaking with?
22:18:54 <elliott> ah, I assumed you wrote one for the purpose
22:19:00 <Gregor> Vorpal: It should compile with MSVC, but you MAY need to tweak it to include malloc.h, if I recall my Windows alloca properly.
22:19:01 <elliott> what is its input syntax like?
22:19:16 <ais523> you put a t after any number in the code, it mutates it
22:19:37 <ais523> multiple numbers if you want to optimise multiple things against each other
22:19:44 <ais523> and I'm guessing "tweak", although I can no longer remember
22:19:55 <elliott> (and what hill does it use?)
22:19:59 <Vorpal> Gregor, I have a CD with MSVC 6.0 somewhere, should I try it?
22:20:08 <ais523> not all that fast on defence programs, and it uses any hill you like, I'm running it on EgoBot's current hill
22:20:09 <Vorpal> actually I doubt that will run on 64-bit windows 7
22:20:14 <ais523> although atm it's optimising for points not score
22:20:19 <Vorpal> yeah I really don't want to mess up my system
22:20:32 <ais523> ah, MSVC of the ALL-CAPS MENUS
22:21:02 <ais523> people are raging about it
22:21:10 <Deewiant> I saw a screenshot and they looked reasonable
22:21:13 <ais523> first Reddit, and now Slashdot
22:21:24 <Vorpal> ais523, all caps menus? what?
22:21:32 <Vorpal> how does that make sense?
22:21:37 <Deewiant> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/unqpz/microsoft_insists_you_will_love_our_all_caps/
22:21:38 <Gregor> Vorpal: I don't know of any reason why it wouldn't work.
22:21:43 -!- Lumpio- has joined.
22:22:25 <Vorpal> Gregor, that seems terrible...
22:23:01 <Vorpal> We’ve chosen to use uppercase styling in the top menu for two main reasons: 1) to keep Visual Studio consistent with the direction of other Microsoft user experiences
22:23:11 <Vorpal> where else does microsoft use all caps?
22:23:31 <Vorpal> oh it lists some places below
22:23:32 <ais523> elliott: anyway, the idea's to beat timer clear by, with appropriately tweaked constants, first locking the main loop, /then/ locking the fallback loop
22:23:39 <ais523> Vorpal: do you agree with the other places?
22:23:52 <Vorpal> ais523, I don't really know anything about them
22:23:54 <ais523> wow, that line would be very zzoish if out of context
22:23:56 <Vorpal> they are not softwares I use
22:24:24 -!- nortti_ has joined.
22:24:36 <elliott> Vorpal: do the softwares have codes
22:24:45 <Vorpal> elliott, stop being zzo!
22:24:52 <elliott> Vorpal: you're the one who said "softwares"!
22:24:55 <Vorpal> ais523, it works in the web design of azure portal (the linked item)
22:25:10 <Vorpal> ais523, kind of at least. Not terribly nice
22:25:14 * ais523 wonders what will replace Microsoft when they suicide
22:25:21 <ais523> perhaps they'll survive, who knows
22:25:27 <Vorpal> in a windows UI it is just horrible though
22:25:28 <ais523> windows 8 is going to cause them problems, but they might not be insurmountable
22:25:53 <Vorpal> ais523, I think they are going to get stuck supporting windows 7 for ages, like they got stuck with xp
22:25:54 <elliott> ais523: I'd rather see them do something like Windows 8 than keep releasing the same OS over and over, it's at least more fun to watch
22:26:08 <Vorpal> because windows 7 is a reasonably good, if resource hungry windows version
22:26:23 <elliott> vista was not really that bad as i understand it
22:26:25 <ais523> elliott: oh, I'm not talking about my preferences to watch
22:26:31 <ais523> and Vista is my favourite Windows version
22:26:40 <Vorpal> elliott, eh I used vista for about half an hour, it was pretty bad
22:26:44 <elliott> anyway, Windows 8 looks pretty badly executed, but I think there's some good sentiment behind it
22:27:01 <elliott> that tends to apply to a lot of things Microsoft does
22:27:50 <elliott> ais523: if Windows 8 ends up being a bad desktop OS, probably the best thing Microsoft can hope for is to give up their desktop OS dominance in turn for the mobile/tablet space
22:27:57 <Vorpal> ais523, "That said, we will enable you to customize the casing, and we are exploring options for how to expose that choice."
22:27:58 <elliott> after all, Windows 8 looks like a pretty good tablet OS
22:28:02 <Vorpal> well it seems like a non-issue now to me
22:28:10 <Vorpal> everyone can get what they prefer
22:28:15 <nortti_> I reistalled Vista 3 times a row because it fucked up itself
22:28:20 <ais523> !bfjoust shudderlock http://sprunge.us/hPLe
22:28:23 <elliott> ais523: what with netbooks and so on, I wouldn't be surprised if they lost that desktop OS grip over a slower period anyway
22:28:34 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_shudderlock: 43.0
22:28:40 <ais523> elliott: it doesn't really fit in with the Windows model well, it seems around as third-party-software-hostile as iOS
22:28:51 <ais523> unapproved third party software, that is
22:28:52 <Vorpal> ais523, what is far more scary is that they will force specific fonts, meaning clear type hell
22:28:57 <elliott> ais523: not really, AFAICT
22:29:14 <ais523> elliott: have you seen that screenshot of Windows 8's metro home page with the Microsoft apps on the left and everyone else's on the right?
22:29:25 <ais523> the contrast is ridiculous :)
22:29:36 <elliott> ais523: that's a far cry from iOS...
22:29:38 <Vorpal> I can't stand cleartype. And Segoe UI and Consolas are unreadable without clear type (everything else is unreadable with it though)
22:29:44 <elliott> everyone promotes their own stuff like that
22:29:47 <ais523> ais523_death_to_defence.bfjoust vs ais523_shudderlock.bfjoust
22:29:48 <ais523> >><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<XX >><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<XX 30
22:29:50 <ais523> ais523_shudderlock.bfjoust wins.
22:30:15 <ais523> Vorpal: do you like other subpixel antialiasing systems?
22:30:29 <ais523> as in, is your hatred ClearType in particular or subpixel antialiasing in general?
22:30:34 <Vorpal> ais523, the OS X one is somewhat better.
22:30:39 <Vorpal> depends on screen DPI though
22:30:57 <Vorpal> it can be reasonable on a mobile display since they have like 250 dpi or higher
22:31:08 <Vorpal> on a 96 dpi desktop monitor it is painful
22:31:32 <Vorpal> but yeah cleartype is far worse than whatever OS X uses. The linux sub pixel hinting is somewhere in between
22:31:45 <ais523> haha, shudderlock is right next to death_to_defence on the leaderboard
22:31:46 <Vorpal> ais523, still I find fully hinted grayscale antialias easiest to read.
22:32:07 <Vorpal> sure, font nerds are going to cry, but I prefer not getting headaches
22:32:14 <Vorpal> which I /do/ get from cleartype
22:33:39 <ais523> huh, I have no problem with the subpixel antialias used by Ubuntu by default
22:33:58 <ais523> except that it's very hard to get a non-anti-aliased font nowadays for situations where you need one
22:34:06 <ais523> perhaps it's to do with the screen you're using
22:34:06 <Vorpal> not using super high DPI though
22:34:17 <ais523> I don't think this screen has larger gaps between pixels than it does within pixels
22:34:22 <ais523> and I make sure to use the screen's native resolution
22:34:33 <elliott> ideally we'd just have high enough DPI screens that antialiasing would be unnecessary
22:34:34 <Vorpal> ais523, still is it a netbook or a laptop?
22:34:35 <ais523> subpixel antialiasing really sucks at non-native resolutions
22:34:43 <elliott> unfortunately the display tech is not quite there yet
22:34:44 <ais523> Vorpal: I'm not sure, it feels like a beefed up netbook
22:34:48 <ais523> designed to run windows 7
22:35:12 <Vorpal> ais523, right, netbooks might have higher DPI. This is a 15.4" laptop display. And it is very much a full laptop
22:35:22 <ais523> oh, it's quite a small screen
22:35:39 <Vorpal> that is why it is usable with subpixel hinting
22:35:57 <Vorpal> ais523, my desktop monitor is 22" or 23" iirc
22:36:01 <elliott> The iPhone 4's DPI looks nice.
22:36:16 <Vorpal> elliott, iirc it is lower than that of Samsung Galaxy Nexus still?
22:36:18 <elliott> I suspect it's impossible to see any fringing at a reasonable distance for the human eye on that thing.
22:36:25 <Vorpal> which is like 320 dpi iirc
22:36:51 <Vorpal> as close as makes no difference
22:36:54 <elliott> yeah, but apple's font rendering is better :
22:36:58 <Vorpal> used a Samsung Galaxy Nexus, very nice phone
22:36:59 <elliott> and the iPhone doesn't use hinting, I think
22:37:06 <elliott> well, almost certain it doesn't
22:37:58 <Vorpal> elliott, I still prefer full hinting and greyscale antialias to the OS X default font rendering. Though the OS X font rendering is WAY better than cleartype
22:38:06 <elliott> Braid, Super Meat Boy, and Lone Survivor Added to Humble Indie Bundle V!
22:38:19 <elliott> i like how they keep adding games to bundles most of which i already have
22:38:21 <Vorpal> Lone Survivor? Not sure which one that is
22:38:28 <Vorpal> don't think I have that game
22:38:33 <Vorpal> which bundle was it from?
22:38:34 <elliott> guess i'll buy this thing soon
22:38:56 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway you can't complain too much, the deal without those is still excellent
22:39:00 <Vorpal> bastion is just awesome
22:39:14 <Vorpal> (of those I played of course)
22:39:50 <Vorpal> oh Lone Survivor is that game
22:42:19 <elliott> ais523: Doesn't "Merfolk" sound like a city in England?
22:42:23 <elliott> Norfolk, Suffolk, Merfolk.
22:43:28 <Vorpal> elliott, actually... Those cities sound like fantasy races!
22:43:30 <nortti_> anybody know where to download android shell sources?
22:43:51 <Vorpal> nortti_, I guess the system development site for android
22:44:05 <Vorpal> nortti_, that is source.android.com
22:44:11 <Vorpal> seems a reasonable starting place
22:50:05 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
22:50:36 <ais523> meanwhile, how is kuskelar_a_clatsop_man doing so well? it doesn't make any sense!
22:51:53 <elliott> hmm, if only I was good at bf joust, so I could name a program something profane
22:52:10 <ais523> `bfjoustcat kuskelar_a_caltsop_man
22:52:13 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bfjoustcat: not found
22:52:31 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
22:52:44 <elliott> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/olsner_kuskelar_a_clatsop_man.bfjoust
22:53:00 <elliott> `run echo '#!/bin/sh' >bin/jousturl
22:53:15 <elliott> `run echo 'echo "http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/$1.bfjoust"' >>bin/jousturl
22:53:18 <elliott> `run chmod +x bin/jousturl
22:53:28 <elliott> `jousturl olsner_kuskelar_a_clatsop_man
22:53:30 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/olsner_kuskelar_a_clatsop_man.bfjoust
22:54:09 <ais523> oh I see, it's mostly a shudder, just with added stupidity
22:54:23 <ais523> (>>.)*3 at the end of the program? seriously?
22:56:12 <ais523> I consider it the BF Joust equivalent of trolling, and am wondering if it was evolved
22:57:03 <elliott> ais523: no, interior_crocodile_alligator was "trolling" (i hate that word)
22:57:32 <elliott> well, interior_crocodile_alligator won because it did really stupid things that nobody anticipated because they made no sense
23:00:06 <ais523> except that some of the things it does not only make no sense, but cannot possibly increase its win chances
23:00:16 <ais523> because they either do nothing or suicide
23:03:31 <elliott> ais523: I think, more probably, olsner just has no idea what he's doing
23:06:18 <oerjan> one might hypothesize that no matter the hill, there will be some program which can win it despite being easily defeatable in afterthought
23:07:13 <elliott> oerjan: you sound like itidus :)
23:07:16 <elliott> that seems practically certain to me
23:07:17 <oerjan> basically an extended RPS idea
23:07:29 <elliott> it's generally believed that there is an algorithm that turns a program into a program that beats that program
23:07:33 <elliott> (on all tape lengths and polarities)
23:07:51 <elliott> so "easily defeatable" is a given in some sense
23:08:16 <elliott> oerjan: actually, I think "win it" has to be as strong as "beat every other program on the hill" in general
23:10:02 <ais523> Phantom__Hoover: and it's trying to charge 10¢ per ad to skip them
23:10:10 <ais523> which is an astonishingly large amount of money
23:10:21 <ais523> surely ads cost less than 10¢ each on viddler?
23:10:36 <oerjan> elliott: hm when you put it that way, you could also make the opposite hypothesis - that there's some collection of 50 programs such that at least one of them wins against anything else.
23:10:41 <elliott> ais523: wait, 10 cents /per ad/?
23:10:46 <ais523> Phantom__Hoover: it's genius in that someone will probably actually pay
23:10:51 -!- david_werecat has joined.
23:11:13 <elliott> well, there are plenty of people who could afford that, but it's still exorbitant
23:11:22 -!- Patashu has joined.
23:11:27 <elliott> if you're rich enough, paying 10 cents per ad is cheaper than going to the fuss of blocking them
23:11:45 <ais523> no, because there's fuss in paying the money too
23:12:00 <ais523> you have to get an account with the ad payment people
23:12:05 <ais523> probably /more/ fuss than installing an ad blocker
23:12:19 <ais523> and probably have to log into it, too
23:12:30 <elliott> most people let things stay logged in
23:12:37 <elliott> and if you have your personal details in an autofill thing...
23:12:48 <elliott> it's true that you'd have to be very rich however :)
23:12:52 <ais523> yep, but spontaneous logout for one reason or another is quite common
23:12:52 <Phantom__Hoover> I was about to comment on why Adblock nor Adblock Plus were working on it, but then I realised I have them both turned off on Shamus Young's site.
23:13:27 <ais523> youtube does ads better, and dailymotion better still
23:13:56 <ais523> (dailymotion now allows skipping ads with no downside, even if you don't have an ad blocker; this probably works well in that it doesn't really incentivise you to bother to get an ad blocker, so you still see the very start of each ad)
23:14:08 -!- zzo38 has joined.
23:14:18 <ais523> (youtube has a delay before you can skip a video ad)
23:14:30 <elliott> ais523: i hate that i live in a world where there is something worse than youtube video ads
23:14:41 <elliott> they single-handedly drove me to install an ad blocker
23:15:07 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: seriously? the video ones?
23:15:07 <ais523> Phantom__Hoover: it really depends on what sort of videos you watch, some genres are much ad-heavier than others
23:15:08 <Phantom__Hoover> A few seconds at the start of the video... isn't really what I'd call obnoxious.
23:15:49 <nortti_> ais523: youtube has ads before videos? since when?
23:16:10 <ais523> nortti_: as I said, it really depends on what you're looking at
23:16:14 <Phantom__Hoover> Although when they still did the long ads (rarely) I just muted them and tabbed out so I'm pretty tolerant.
23:16:21 <ais523> watch, say, ten to twenty featured videos in a row and you'll start seeing them
23:16:27 <ais523> and yes, I use the mute-and-tab-out method too
23:16:58 <nortti_> ais523: in what kind of videos do you see them?
23:16:59 <pikhq_> I never notice because AdBlock.
23:17:05 <elliott> on tv i watch the ads out of perverse amusement
23:17:10 <ais523> nortti_: featured videos, and videos by youtube partners
23:17:18 <elliott> ais523: more than just that
23:17:45 <Phantom__Hoover> Have you ever wanted a cup of tea in the middle of an hour-long BBC slot?
23:17:48 <ais523> elliott: and the other category is videos which contain audio or video which has a third-party copyright claim
23:18:25 <ais523> increasingly common nowadays, with the rise of copyright trolls
23:18:59 <nortti_> ais523: I watch videos by youtube partners and I have never seen them. it mat be because I haven't used youtube's official players for over haof a year
23:19:01 <Phantom__Hoover> Apparently Americans don't get those "blocked from your country on copyright grounds" messages.
23:19:07 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: im not badmouthing they're glorious
23:19:10 <elliott> it's capitalism at its finest!!!
23:19:24 <pikhq_> Phantom__Hoover: We do.
23:19:27 <ais523> Phantom__Hoover: they do sometimes, but on different content from other videos
23:19:27 <Phantom__Hoover> elliott, OK but seriously why do the 5-second YouTube ads count as obnoxious?
23:19:40 <ais523> as in, "blocked in your country" varies from country to country, obvioulsy
23:20:12 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: i really cba to talk about it
23:20:37 <zzo38> Better way is don't use the YouTube, if you can host your own video file
23:20:45 <ais523> hmm, I should block ads in more places, I think it's vaguely immoral to support an inviable economic model
23:20:47 <kmc> host it on gopher
23:20:53 <Phantom__Hoover> Also what TV ads are you talking about, I'm desensitised to the because I'm too normal
23:20:57 <pikhq_> youtube-dl for winnitude.
23:21:12 <Phantom__Hoover> ais523, shhhh, if they think it'll work don't dissuade them.
23:22:06 <zzo38> kmc: The protocol is not relevant, it can be gopher, HTTP, FTP, or something else; I am just saying host it yourself and convert it yourself, to Theora or whatever
23:22:57 <ais523> zzo38: people don't really use Theora nowadays, WebM was open-sourced and open-patented and is better
23:23:21 <zzo38> I still prefer Theora
23:23:28 <nortti_> pikhq_: that is how I watch my youtube videos nowadays. before I used mactubes
23:23:32 <zzo38> But you could use WebM f you want, too
23:23:48 <david_werecat> BTW, Theora is a video codec, not a container format
23:23:49 <lambdabot> david_werecat: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
23:24:06 <zzo38> david_werecat: Yes I know. The container format would be Ogg
23:24:52 -!- Patashu has quit (Disconnected by services).
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23:25:31 <zzo38> Wikipedia also uses Theora
23:25:36 <pikhq_> I don't think there's *any* advantage to using Theora over VP8.
23:26:58 <zzo38> Does VP8 support Ogg container?
23:27:26 <pikhq_> The issue is more one of "does Ogg support VP8"...
23:27:46 <zzo38> Yes. But, the Ogg container can contain any data, I suppose
23:28:26 -!- nortti_ has quit (Quit: leaving).
23:30:15 <pikhq_> Also, any reason to prefer Ogg over MKV?
23:30:35 <zzo38> Once I tried to invent Micro-Ogg which is like Ogg but the block headings are smaller and some features are removed
23:30:49 <pikhq_> Aside from "holy mother of fuck MKV is complicated", that is.
23:31:02 <zzo38> pikhq_: Yes that is the reason.
23:31:16 <pikhq_> (if it's a feature that can go in a container format, MKV has it)
23:31:31 <pikhq_> zzo38: The subset of MKV that WebM videos can have isn't that bad, though.
23:33:17 <zzo38> I prefer Micro-Ogg
23:35:21 <zzo38> I have worked on writing a video disc format, using headerless Theora to encode videos (PAL systems support Dirac as well as Theora), using the Micro-Ogg container for the video/audio data, and other simple headerless binary formats for some of the other data (such as track names and so on)
23:38:23 <zzo38> So if you want VP8, you should still use Ogg or Micro-Ogg
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23:48:02 <zzo38> Why is not allowed to view TOPIC messages if not on that channel?
23:55:10 <quintopia> what bad luck for ais leaving just as i arrive :P
23:55:42 <zzo38> Oops now you will have 13 kinds of bad luck
00:05:53 <zzo38> How to calculate the Venus transit?
00:07:11 <zzo38> Is there a simple way using the data from Astrolog? (Astrolog will display distances too, as well as azimuth/altitude, ecliptic longitude/ecliptic latitude, and right ascension/declination)
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00:14:43 <quintopia> you calculate the time when earth and venus are the same angle around the sun (this is a periodic function)
00:15:16 <quintopia> and calculate when they are same distance from the ecliptic (a strange function ew)
00:15:30 <quintopia> and see when they coincide to within some small tolerance
00:15:44 <zzo38> Do you need the apparent diameter?
00:19:52 <zzo38> Astrolog will display the ecliptic coordinates of Sun and Venus
00:21:53 <zzo38> As well as the distance
00:23:20 <oerjan> um a transit would be when venus is _on_ the ecliptic, no?
00:23:40 <oerjan> and also in the same place as the sun
00:23:51 <zzo38> Well, yes; but some tolerance is allowed due to apparent diameter
00:24:16 <oerjan> isn't this basically the same as for eclipses, just with venus and sun instead of moon and sun?
00:24:40 <zzo38> Yes it is the same kind of thing as with a solar eclipse
00:24:56 <oerjan> and you already told iirc that you had found out how to find eclipses
00:25:08 <quintopia> oerjan: not necessarily on the ecliptic no. i don't think.
00:25:27 <oerjan> quintopia: well very close. the _sun_ is always there, after all.
00:25:52 <zzo38> Yes I have, but even with eclipses I do not know how to calculate where it will be visible and what the tolerance will be, and whether it is total or partial
00:26:12 <oerjan> well venus transits are never total
00:26:30 <quintopia> oerjan: the ecliptic is the plane in which earth orbits? then yes it will be very close
00:27:48 <oerjan> zzo38: anyway, ecliptic latitude ~ 0 and conjunction with sun, i should imagine
00:28:11 <zzo38> oerjan: I know that much!
00:29:25 <zzo38> What I don't know is such things as the tolerance and visibility conditions
00:29:43 <oerjan> i recall from wikipedia there's an approximate period of 243 years
00:31:24 <oerjan> zzo38: well if you have difference in latitude and in longitude between venus and sun, then pythagoras theorem should give a close approximation to the distance between the centers, i think
00:31:50 <zzo38> But these are spherical coordinates
00:32:53 <oerjan> yes, thus only an approximation
00:34:01 <oerjan> and only good when they are actually close
00:36:12 <zzo38> Also, why are solar eclipses visible at different place on the Earth? I see maps of solar eclipse where they are visible
00:36:38 <zzo38> I do know the Moon moves much faster than Venus
00:36:44 <oerjan> because the moon is much smaller than the sun, so its shadow can never cover all of earth
00:37:07 <zzo38> How do you calculate where it is visible?
00:37:51 <quintopia> you need to use the rotation of the earth, and the location of moon wrt ecliptic when it is in "full" position
00:37:53 <oerjan> actually i guess it has more to do with distance
00:38:03 <zzo38> oerjan: Doesn't it depend on apparent diameter, not true diameter?
00:39:07 <quintopia> i expect the locus of points where solar eclipse reaches totality to look about like a sine curve
00:39:16 <oerjan> if the apparent diameters were always equal, then the eclipse would always be total at exactly one spot, i think
00:39:24 <quintopia> since the axis of earth is tilted wrt eclipctic
00:39:41 <zzo38> Astrolog does include the true diameters (given in units where 1 = diameter of Earth), but no apparent diameters
00:39:49 <oerjan> well unless it misses earth entirely
00:40:04 <olsner> elliott: I can confirm that I have no clue what kuskelar the clatsop man is doing
00:40:13 <elliott> @tell ais523 <olsner> elliott: I can confirm that I have no clue what kuskelar the clatsop man is doing
00:40:16 <oerjan> zzo38: just divide by distance
00:40:21 <zzo38> quintopia: Yes; the Tropic of Cancer and Tropic of Capricorn give the amount of the tilt (named because those are the ecliptic longitude of the Sun if the declination is at those tropics)
00:40:38 <zzo38> And they do sometimes move slightly
00:40:39 <quintopia> oerjan: no, it would not always be a point, since the apparent diameter is also a function of location from which you are viewing
00:41:26 <zzo38> quintopia: So, you would move the center of measurement?
00:41:50 <quintopia> zzo38: no, oerjan is right you just divide by distance to get apparent diameter
00:42:00 <quintopia> but that distance is a distance to a particular point on the earth
00:42:30 <quintopia> astronomical calculations are reliable and predictable
00:43:26 <oerjan> actually dividing by distance is not totally accurate, i think, since they are spheres not circles
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00:43:49 <oerjan> and so which circle on the surface forms the visible edge depends on distance
00:44:29 <quintopia> it is as close to perfect as you can get
00:45:00 <oerjan> i don't think that is quite true
00:45:31 <quintopia> no? i guess black holes are more spherical...but the sun is p damn close
00:45:46 <oerjan> um it's a problem _for_ spheres
00:46:16 <quintopia> a sphere looks like the same circle from all angles at a particular distance
00:46:31 <oerjan> yes, but it depends on distance in a nonlinear way
00:47:02 <quintopia> yeah i guess we are close enough to the moon that we cant consider the projection orthographic
00:47:29 <oerjan> i think the apparent diameter is what counts for that, actually
00:47:46 <oerjan> so it's approximately as distorted for the moon as for the sun
00:48:14 <quintopia> since they have approximately the same apparent diameter
00:52:45 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angular_diameter has formulas - apparently the difference just amounts to using arcsin for spheres instead of arctan for disks
00:55:32 <oerjan> zzo38: that also has lists including the sun and venus
00:56:05 <oerjan> but i guess it doesn't tell exactly how they vary
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02:50:37 <kmc> so why is this channel full of people from .fi
02:50:46 <kmc> is it just that y'all speak an esoteric language from birth
02:50:56 <kmc> also it appears i might go to .fi in august or something
02:50:58 <kmc> what should i do there
02:51:09 <zzo38> Do you know what some monads are which are the codensity of something and/or the free monad of something?
02:51:16 <zzo38> kmc: Learn their language
02:51:38 <shachaf> I hear it's a popular activity.
02:51:59 <shachaf> What are you ending up there?
02:52:18 <shachaf> Also, it's 6 in .fi right now.
02:54:25 <kmc> yeah sauna would be cool
02:54:49 <elliott> kmc: Esoteric programming is "a thing" in Finland, I think.
02:54:53 <elliott> Or at least, more of a thing than it is elsewhere.
02:54:56 <elliott> Like the demoscene! Except not.
02:55:14 <kmc> that makes sense now
02:55:27 <kmc> well, now i can ask why .fi is the world center of demoscene + esoteric programming
02:55:47 <elliott> kmc: because they have nothing else to do all fucking day in that frozen wasteland?
02:55:55 <kmc> sex, drinking
03:24:19 <elliott> are you able to answer them
03:24:41 <shachaf> elliott: Are you committing IRC sin #1 on purpose. :-(
03:24:58 <elliott> shachaf: I *am* IRC sin #1.
03:24:59 <kmc> elliott: sure, you can also try #mosh
03:25:10 <elliott> kmc: no way why would i talk to a whole channel of people when just one would do
03:25:15 <elliott> it's not actually a mosh question that's the great part
03:25:20 <elliott> it's just a question about mosh's internals!
03:25:24 <shachaf> elliott: The point is that if kmc can't answer your question, he'd feel bad.
03:25:26 <elliott> i'm not even *using* mosh right now!
03:25:31 <shachaf> Or if he's too lazy to answer your question.
03:25:33 <elliott> shachaf: That seems perfectly fine to me.
03:25:46 <elliott> Of course people should feel bad if they can't/won't answer my questions!
03:25:48 <shachaf> I know. That's why we made it a Law of IRC.
03:26:00 <kmc> then tell me something cool to do in .fi
03:26:15 <shachaf> kmc: There's some nifty food to eat in .fi.
03:26:24 <shachaf> So make sure you eat something while you're there.
03:26:28 <shachaf> Also what are you doing in .fi?
03:26:29 <elliott> kmc: So, my understanding is that mosh roughly works by synchronising the big-block-of-cells that is the terminal display between server and client.
03:26:43 <kmc> shachaf: i'm doing what elliott tells me to, clearly!
03:27:02 <kmc> oh, Stair Dismount et al. are from Finland too
03:27:12 <elliott> kmc: But a terminal doesn't quite work like a big block of cells. For instance, there's a difference between the line "a " and "a"; there's a concept of a line ending that affects things like selecting text in a graphical terminal.
03:27:14 <kmc> i played a lot of Stair Dismount and Truck Dismount back in my day
03:27:16 <elliott> How does mosh represent this?
03:27:37 <kmc> elliott: sec, I will find for you the actual object which is synchronized
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03:28:01 <elliott> kmc is punishing my law violation by making me read C++.
03:28:07 <elliott> In return I will give him awful things to do in Finland.
03:28:15 <elliott> And he will be obligated to do them.
03:28:30 <kmc> most of the classes in src/terminal/terminalframebuffer.h are dedicated to this question
03:28:31 <oerjan> shachaf: HEY WHERE IS THE LIST OF IRC SINS I CANNOT FIND THEM
03:28:39 <oerjan> i need to know if i have a complete set
03:28:56 <elliott> They should arrest people who make you source dive after asking questions.
03:28:58 <shachaf> oerjan: The list of IRC sins is infinite.
03:29:06 <lambdabot> let(!)=div;f n=1:n:1:f(n+2);w@(x:y)%[a,b,c,d]|t<-a!c,c+d>1,t==b!d=t:w%[10*(a-c*t),10*(b-d*t),c,d]|0<1=y%[x*a+b,a,x*c+d,c]in(2:f 2)%[1,0,0,1]>>=show
03:29:09 <shachaf> I ported that program to bash!
03:29:27 <kmc> a cell has a vector of unicode characters (because of combining chars), a width (a la wcwidth), a set of "renditions" i.e. color, bold, etc, and a flag saying whether it should wrap to the next line on select (if it's in the last column)
03:29:45 <elliott> kmc: Hmm. So you store it as a linear array?
03:29:48 <elliott> Rather than two-dimensional?
03:29:52 <oerjan> <kmc> døød <-- deeath? oh dear.
03:29:53 <kmc> then a row is a vector of cells
03:30:16 <kmc> and a framebuffer has a vector of rows, an icon name, a window name, and a count of the number of times the bell has ever been rung on the server
03:30:18 <elliott> That makes sense. Unfortunately, applying that to my design would reduce its utility...
03:30:35 <shachaf> Uh-oh, is this for your roguelike?
03:30:58 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: The list of IRC sins is infinite. <-- oh dear
03:31:01 <kmc> elliott: the client needs to ring the bell if the server did
03:31:03 <elliott> It's called "roguelike" right now.
03:31:24 <elliott> kmc: Right now I just represent the screen as a two-dimensional grid of Chars.
03:31:24 <kmc> when the client gets a new frame, if the new bellcount is greater than the old one, it rings the bell once
03:31:36 <elliott> It's super-convenient to code with but messes up copying of textual stuff.
03:31:40 <elliott> I'm not sure whether I care enough to fix it.
03:31:47 <kmc> this means that if the remote programs spews a bunch of bells, the client bell will ring only at the framerate
03:31:54 <kmc> which is probably one of the most obscure mosh improvements over ssh
03:32:07 <kmc> obviously ;)
03:32:10 <elliott> kmc: You should add that to the website.
03:32:23 <kmc> "for too long, mankind has suffered under the tyranny of BEL"
03:32:24 <elliott> It'll convince all the HN users.
03:32:43 <kmc> "Mosh: Suckless awesome terminal bell, done right. Reinvented, again."
03:33:12 <shachaf> A terminal bell that celebrates craftmanship?
03:33:27 <kmc> a terminal bell that celebrates bronzesmithing
03:33:44 <shachaf> kmc: Does it mean that if something rings the bell a million times, I'll get one bell per keystroke for the foreseeable future?
03:33:54 <elliott> shachaf: It's the RHYTHM OF LIFE.
03:34:16 <monqy> does anyone even use bells
03:34:22 <kmc> shachaf: no, the server pushing new terminal frames is independent of the client pushing input to the server
03:34:31 <shachaf> Well, I guess that's something.
03:34:58 <elliott> kmc: so it'll just constant belling for the next hour?
03:35:01 <elliott> i want constant belling :(
03:35:08 <kmc> there are two instances of the (higher level parts of) SSP, one in each direction
03:35:13 <kmc> not constant belling
03:35:20 <shachaf> "If one bell rings in the Tower of Bray / Ding dong, your true love will stay. / Ding, dong, one bell today / In the tower of Bray / Ding, Dong!"
03:35:32 <kmc> the server tries to get your terminal state up to the current state as quickly as possible
03:35:43 <kmc> it doesn't care if it skips intermediate states
03:35:51 <elliott> You mean I'll ... miss out on bells?
03:35:57 <kmc> and you'll get one bell per frame transition, max
03:36:01 <kmc> you will miss out on bells :(
03:36:21 <elliott> kmc: What if I use a program to play music through the bell?
03:36:25 <shachaf> My terminal program has a little number that indicates how many bells have played since the last time it had focus.
03:36:35 <kmc> is there an xterm escape code to set the frequency and duration of a bell
03:36:38 <elliott> monqy: Who doesn't use bells?
03:36:47 <elliott> kmc: Who said you need those for music?
03:36:47 <kmc> shachaf: what program is that?
03:37:05 <elliott> shachaf uses... uh, what's an embarrassing terminal emulator to use.
03:37:06 <kmc> you can write a program to play 4'33" in ANSI C
03:37:08 <elliott> aterm. shachaf uses aterm.
03:37:17 <kmc> elliott: st
03:37:21 <kmc> http://st.suckless.org/
03:37:22 <shachaf> I don't actually use it that much.
03:37:29 <elliott> I heard it was crappy at Unicode a while back.
03:37:38 <kmc> no i don't have much information really
03:37:48 <shachaf> I only use it when I happen to be using a Mac OS machine.
03:38:05 <elliott> shachaf: Did you know: The OS X Terminal can't display dark grey?
03:38:07 <shachaf> The terminal icon gets a little number that says how many notifications you've had.
03:38:15 <elliott> It displays bold black as black. Even if you set "use bright fonts for bold" on.
03:38:31 <shachaf> 20:38 elliott shachaf: Did you know: The OS X Terminal can't display dark grey?
03:38:41 <shachaf> THE JOKE IS THAT I DON'T SEE THE DARK-GREY ANGLE BRACKETS.
03:39:06 <elliott> shachaf: Did you know I use uxterm in X11 to play roguelikes on OS X?
03:39:12 <elliott> Because Terminal.app can't display dark grey.
03:39:35 <kmc> did you know the Ubuntu version of gnome-terminal changes ANSI blue to Canonical aubergine?
03:39:55 <shachaf> elliott: Real roguelikers play with color=off!
03:39:58 <elliott> Did you know kmc, fix my code. :(
03:40:07 <elliott> shachaf: There's a Crawl player who doesn't use autoexplore!
03:40:16 <coppro> shachaf: I saw his second ascension
03:40:22 <coppro> he actually succeeded in getting all the gems
03:40:26 <elliott> 04:40 <Henzell> undermind[1/2]: Wins at a ridiculous win percentage very slowly. Doesn't use autoexplore.
03:40:27 <coppro> but couldn't get his giants to carry them
03:40:32 <elliott> 04:40 <Henzell> undermind[2/2]: Nobody knows anything about undermind.
03:40:35 <elliott> coppro: No, he completed it.
03:40:41 <coppro> elliott: well he gave up on the gems
03:40:50 <coppro> he took what he could carry
03:40:55 <coppro> which was a lot less than he had
03:40:58 <elliott> "He/she tried again years later, ascending after 405 hours on August 16, 2010 with over 8,000 gems."
03:41:01 <shachaf> Why didn't he use the bag-of-holding-in-bag-of-holding trick?
03:41:25 <coppro> elliott: he had left at least that many on dlvl 1
03:41:33 <kmc> elliott: so where should i go in .fi
03:41:45 <shachaf> "carry unlimited gems: the bag-of-holding-in-bag-of-holding trick"
03:42:13 <kmc> elliott: so maybe Mosh won't handle your bell music very well, otoh it's much better than ssh at handling mplayer -vo caca
03:43:01 <elliott> kmc: But seriously, visit oklopol.
03:43:37 <elliott> I forget the name of the place.
03:43:59 <shachaf> Finland's population density is 16/km^2
03:44:37 <elliott> Did you know that lif esucks?
03:44:38 <shachaf> Of course "the part of .fi that people actually live in" has a much higher density.
03:45:11 <elliott> I don't know what lif is though.
03:47:10 <kmc> espoo is not far from helsinki
03:47:24 <elliott> kmc: Go visit oklopol in Turku.
03:47:33 <kmc> shachaf: what is it like?
03:47:36 <elliott> You can't go to Finland and not meet oklopol.
03:47:43 <kmc> i could visit turkey and turku!
03:48:06 <shachaf> elliott: I went to Finland and not meet oklopol.
03:48:20 <elliott> shachaf: You actually died.
03:48:24 <elliott> kmc: Will you visit oklopol?
03:48:56 <shachaf> elliott: kmc visited me once when he was in the US!
03:49:08 <shachaf> The previous statement is actually untrue.
03:49:26 <oerjan> elliott: you know the two of us trying to get oklopol visitors is karmic irony, right?
03:50:12 <shachaf> elliott: Today kmc taught me that the US is the best country.
03:50:20 <kmc> is your business ISO-3103 compliant???
03:51:40 <zzo38> Do you know if data LeftCoT m f x = forall z. LeftCo (f (m z) -> x) (f z); is a comonad? Do you know if it is a comonad transformer?
03:51:45 <kmc> for only 44 swiss francs you too can learn how to make an international standard cup of tea, with or without milk, in english or french!
03:51:54 <oerjan> kmc: browsing the ig nobel?
03:52:02 <kmc> no, just browsing weird ISO standards
03:52:21 <elliott> shachaf: Should I buy the `humble bundle'?
03:52:28 <shachaf> elliott: Did you hear that kmc is moving to CA?
03:52:40 <elliott> kmc: Buy me a `humble' `bundle'.
03:52:50 <oerjan> shachaf: .ca or .ca.us?
03:53:08 <kmc> rumors of my moving to CA are greatly exaggerated
03:53:14 <shachaf> I just asked elliott if he heard them.
03:53:28 <zzo38> oerjan: Good question
03:53:38 <kmc> could move to .cat
03:53:44 <shachaf> oerjan: You know, the one with Ontario in it?
03:54:19 <oerjan> shachaf: right, i've been there
03:55:06 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
03:55:25 <oerjan> i should have suspected that, i guess.
03:55:29 <shachaf> oerjan: You should add an extra '-' to your swatter.
03:55:56 <oerjan> shachaf: no, 5+3 is the unchangeable standard
03:56:09 <oerjan> ok so technically it once was 4+3
03:56:30 <shachaf> oerjan: Why did it grow from 4 to 5?
03:56:37 <oerjan> shachaf: someone lost a -
03:56:56 <oerjan> vaguely possibly monqy
03:57:14 <oerjan> or was monqy even around back then
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03:57:34 <oerjan> hi dashingfellowcompletelynotshachaf
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03:58:07 <shachaf> oerjan: Would you look at that!
03:59:07 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###-
03:59:20 <zzo38> Oops you did it backward
04:00:23 * oerjan swats elliott -----###-----------
04:01:58 <oerjan> im impalindrome emordnilapmi mi
04:03:33 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.12354
04:04:02 <shachaf> kmc: Have you ever considered a being a roguelike game?
04:04:56 <oerjan> or more precisely, Slereah-
04:06:35 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pastlogs: not found
04:06:54 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: logs: not found
04:07:00 <oerjan> actually it's not quite clear from that day whether that _was_ Slereah_
04:09:14 <shachaf> elliott: I heard kmc will "probably" end up in CA.
04:09:26 <elliott> he's going to teleport to a random location on the globe
04:09:31 <elliott> our hearts, minds, legs are with him
04:09:51 <shachaf> elliott: Did you "get the humble bundle" ? ??
04:09:52 <zzo38> Perhaps idempotent applicative should be defined as follows: liftPair . fanout = fmap fanout since then it can be used with any fanout category.
04:10:21 * oerjan finds the actual JOIN in raw.txt to confirm
04:10:45 <shachaf> I thought you were talking about some SQL database logs. :-(
04:11:10 <elliott> Especially Y Combinator-funded ones.
04:11:26 <zzo38> Do you like this definiiton of idempotent applicatives?
04:11:39 <shachaf> zzo38: Is your definition of idempotent applicatives a database?
04:12:20 <zzo38> shachaf: No, it is what I wrote above.
04:13:07 <oerjan> shachaf: no, http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/2008-12-04-raw.txt
04:16:14 <zzo38> And a commutative applicative would be defined as liftPair . swap = fmap swap . liftPair
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04:51:03 <zzo38> What kind of monad is (Codensity (Warbler (Kleisli IO)))?
04:55:19 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
04:56:38 <zzo38> I know that; (Codensity anything) is always a monad. But here it is also MonadPlus, it is like (Codensity Endo) but endomorphisms of a different category so what does it make? Is it like monad fold (like how foldlM and so on)?
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05:39:47 <oklopol> oh i guess it's just some haskell thing
05:40:31 <zzo38> oklopol: Yes, Codensity is some Haskell thing
05:40:49 <zzo38> Cont x = Codensity (Const x) is one
05:44:41 <zzo38> oklopol: Continuation monad
05:45:10 <oklopol> i had a hunch. no idea what that is.
05:45:33 <zzo38> Another one would be [] = Codensity Endo
05:46:03 <zzo38> Endomorphisms of (->) category
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05:47:03 <oklopol> so what does Codensity do for that?
05:47:26 <zzo38> oklopol: Do for what?
05:47:58 <oklopol> i assume "[] = Codensity Endo" means something
05:48:03 <zzo38> newtype Codensity f x = Codensity (forall z. (x -> f z) -> f z); newtype Endo x = Endo (x -> x);
05:48:16 <zzo38> oklopol: So, that means it is the same kind of monad
05:49:11 <zzo38> So that, return is a single element list, join is concatenation of the lists in the list, mzero is empty list, and mplus is concatenation of two lists together.
05:49:26 <zzo38> You might see that it is just the fold function for a list
05:49:49 <oklopol> i might see that what is the fold function?
05:50:48 <zzo38> oklopol: Fold function for a list [x] would be of type (forall z. (x -> z -> z) -> z -> z)
05:51:42 <oklopol> okay so the fold is of type Codensity
05:51:53 <zzo38> The endomorphisms for some object of some category forms a monoid, so you can use mzero and mplus
05:52:04 <zzo38> And it just happens to be the correct monoid
05:52:35 <zzo38> oklopol: Of type (Codensity Endo)
05:54:06 <oklopol> "You might see that it is just the fold function for a list" still sounds wrong, that's not the only function of type Codensity Endo for lists.
05:54:36 <zzo38> Well, in this case it is, though.
05:54:39 <oklopol> but i guess all sensible functions of that type might be called fold
05:55:14 <zzo38> Yes, really, it is. And the monad is achieved entirely for free.
05:55:29 <oklopol> so there's more to Codensity than the type you gave?
05:56:06 <zzo38> oklopol: Well, there is also the Functor, Applicative, and Monad instances, which is available for (Codensity f) without needing anything from f.
05:57:05 <zzo38> The MonadPlus instance, however, requires class Plus f where { zero :: f x; plus :: f x -> f x -> f x; };
05:57:30 <zzo38> In the case of Endo, it is already Monoid so you can easily have: instance Plus Endo where { zero = mempty; plus = mappend; };
05:57:44 <oklopol> yeah i guess i'd have to understand what instances are
05:59:10 <zzo38> oklopol: Do you mean in general or for Codensity?
06:00:11 <zzo38> In general, it means that certain operations are defined for a type, for example, Monoid class instances are for types that form a monoid.
06:00:33 <zzo38> That is what it is.
06:01:04 <oklopol> but could you explain where the connection between Codensity and list comes from?
06:02:14 <zzo38> oklopol: It is achieved *for free*.
06:02:45 <oklopol> so if i were to write a list type of my own, there would only be one function of type Codensity Endo and that would be its fold?
06:02:59 <oklopol> even if i stored the list in a database
06:03:31 <oklopol> i make it a monad, is that all i need?
06:03:43 <zzo38> oklopol: Actually what I mean is, the type (Codensity Endo x) is isomorphic to [x] so (Codensity Endo x) can also be used as a list.
06:04:53 <zzo38> Do you know such things as if you wanted to make a list structure in something like Unlambda or Lazy K, you need to define all data structures by some kind of function? A list can be defined by a fold function, and it is the same thing here.
06:07:24 <oklopol> i still feel like there's a function body somewhere that computes the fold.
06:07:30 <oklopol> unless it really comes free from the type
06:07:50 <zzo38> It comes free from the Codensity monad
06:08:49 <oklopol> so there is more to it than the type
06:08:53 <zzo38> The definition is: instance Monad (Codensity f) where { return x = Codensity (\k -> k x); m >>= k = Codensity (\c -> runCodensity m (\a -> runCodensity (k a) c)); };
06:10:30 <ion> Could you please give an example of a value of type Codensity Endo Something?
06:10:49 <zzo38> That is what was already there; I added the Alternative and MonadPlus instances myself which works as: instance Plus f => Alternative (Codensity f) where { empty = Codensity (const zero); Codensity x <|> Codensity y = Codensity (liftA2 plus x y); };
06:11:08 <zzo38> ion: return 5 <|> return 6 <|> return 7 is like the list [5,6,7]
06:11:28 <oklopol> ah the <|> operator we all know so well
06:11:47 <ion> Ah, should have figured i can just try “return”. :-)
06:11:51 <oklopol> but isn't the fold function for lists of type x an example
06:12:25 <zzo38> In [] in fact it is also the list [5,6,7] but with (Codensity Endo) it is the fold function for the list [5,6,7] so it is same things!!!
06:13:09 <oklopol> would be fun to understand some haskell
06:13:54 <oklopol> but i'm pretty sure you can't understand it without a phd in mathematics
06:13:58 <oklopol> so i have to try again in a few years
06:14:00 <zzo38> I would prefer to define join as a class method but unfortunately Haskell does not do like that
06:14:12 <ion> Does some module implement an Alternative Endo instance?
06:14:28 <zzo38> oklopol: No, it is possible to understand without a PhD in mathematics, but I suppose it helps. I do not have a PhD in mathematics, but I do like mathematics, and to me that is good enough.
06:14:33 <oklopol> oh god another crazy haskell understander
06:14:54 <oklopol> zzo38: i hear phd's get all the chicks
06:14:55 <zzo38> ion: To do so, it would have to be Applicative which isn't since Endo is not even Functor
06:15:00 <coppro> `addquote < oklopol> oh god another crazy haskell understander < oklopol> i have to leave
06:15:02 <zzo38> oklopol: I don't care
06:15:03 <HackEgo> 844) < oklopol> oh god another crazy haskell understander < oklopol> i have to leave
06:15:16 <oklopol> zzo38: don't you like girls?
06:15:17 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: randomquote: not found
06:15:25 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ foo \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom
06:15:32 <HackEgo> ? \ @ \ No \ WELCOME \ WeLcOmE \ addquote \ allquotes \ anonlog \ calc \ define \ delquote \ etymology \ forget \ fortune \ frink \ google \ hatesgeo \ jousturl \ json \ k \ karma \ karma+ \ karma- \ learn \ log \ logurl \ macro \ maketext \ marco \ paste \ pastefortunes \ pastekarma \ pastelog \ pastelogs \ pastenquotes \ pastequotes \ pastewisdom \ pastlog \ ping \ prefixes \ qc \ quachaf \ quote \ quotes \ randomanonlog
06:15:37 <zzo38> oklopol: I don't like or dislike
06:15:54 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
06:15:57 <oklopol> zzo38: do you neutral them?
06:15:59 <zzo38> ion: Edward Kmett's Plus requires Functor but my Plus does not require Functor, so Endo can be an instance of my Plus.
06:16:24 <zzo38> oklopol: Neutral in terms of like/dislike, I suppose it would be so.
06:16:24 <ion> zzo38: I mean, return 5 <|> return 6 <|> return 7 :: Codensity Endo Integer doesn’t compile here because there’s no instance for Alternative Endo.
06:16:40 <HackEgo> 666) <Phantom__Hoover> elliott, cars aren't perfectly spherical.
06:16:45 <HackEgo> 733) <fizzie> oerjan: Hey, what's your country code for telephonistic dialling from the outside world? <oerjan> fizzie: +47 <fizzie> oerjan: Ooh, you're, like, right next to Sweden there. <fizzie> I... guess you are geographically, too.
06:16:51 <oklopol> let's bury them in quotes mwahahaha
06:16:55 <zzo38> ion: That is true; but if the instances are defined in my way instead then it will compile and even work
06:16:56 <HackEgo> 369) <EgoBot> hey fhet's zeees OouooH SNEP IT'S A FOooCKING TIGER
06:17:34 <ion> zzo38: Ah, i thought we were talking about the “standard” Codensity and Endo.
06:17:58 <ion> oklopol: Yes, that’s why i put it in quotes. :-P
06:18:17 <zzo38> ion: It is the standard types but the instances for Alternative Codensity are different.
06:18:24 <coppro> zzo38: what is your age?
06:18:28 <zzo38> And the Plus class also differs.
06:18:35 <zzo38> coppro: I do not want to say.
06:18:57 <zzo38> ion: Not all the time!
06:19:01 <oklopol> i'm gonna make a wild guess: 24
06:20:40 <zzo38> A wild guess? You have no educated guess?
06:22:25 <zzo38> ion: There is no really standard Codensity but the Endo is the standard one yes
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06:28:13 <oklopol> zzo38: no, i have no educated guess
06:29:08 <oklopol> well i didn't pull that out of my ass but you can be a bit hard to read.
06:30:01 <oklopol> that's not what i mean by hard to read
06:31:02 <oklopol> it's just what we psychics say when a client doesn't fit one of the usual patterns.
06:31:51 <zzo38> O, that is what it means. In that case I suppose you are correct about that
06:33:46 <oklopol> but on a different note, yes, you do write kinda messy :D
06:36:25 <zzo38> Why do you think I write messy?
06:36:53 <oklopol> dunno, you have this whole thing going on. i don't know if messy is the right word.
06:37:17 <oklopol> i keep getting this "women in mathematics" thing in my inbox
06:37:26 <oklopol> why isn't there a Real Men in Mathematics conference
06:38:12 <oklopol> where people stroke each others' beards and implement braid groups in them
06:38:37 <zzo38> My writing seems to me to be neater than other people's writing, although the words are different
06:39:21 <oklopol> okay, i find that interesting.
06:39:25 <zzo38> oklopol: Perhaps there isn't, because nobody has made it up yet.
06:40:12 <oklopol> now i just need a beard that turns invisible when i tell it to
06:42:07 <oklopol> otherwise i have to shave it now and then
06:42:29 <zzo38> Then use a fake beard if you do not want to shave; you can add it and remove it when you want to.
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06:42:57 <HackEgo> 823) <elliott> `delquote 848
06:42:58 <zzo38> But if people pull it, it might fall off
06:43:06 <HackEgo> *poof* <elliott> `delquote 848
06:43:35 <oklopol> yeah i know what you mean, i too wonder whether i'd pull the beard off.
06:43:36 <HackEgo> *poof* s'f'slg;sd'sdfjhklf;sdklfjdfklgj
06:47:27 <oklopol> http://arxiv.org/pdf/1202.3670v2.pdf i wonder if P != NP has been proved more times than this?
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06:52:21 <zzo38> As well as Codensity monad, there is also Density comonad
06:57:01 <zzo38> Which is better, liberty or order?
06:57:21 <zzo38> (even though you may have both)
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07:01:41 <AnnApolis> http://manyhills.webs.com/bitten.html
07:02:01 <AnnApolis> i assume i have duplicated something that already exists
07:03:56 <oklopol> i don't see where unbounded memory comes from
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07:06:21 <AnnApolis> well, when a mummy unbounded memory and a daddy unbounded memory love each other very much
07:14:33 <oklopol> can you show a program that fills the memory with 1's?
07:16:17 <coppro> has anyone formalized the wire-crossing problem?
07:16:21 <coppro> because I just thought of a formalization of it
07:18:11 <coppro> well, an idea that might lead to one, anyways
07:20:09 <coppro> work by bisecting the state into a "graph-like" portion and a non-"graph-like" portion, where the "graph-like" portion is the varying details of a programming language.
07:20:25 <oklopol> i like the idea of effectively turning a finite set of bf programs into a program that wins them all in BFJoust
07:21:10 <oklopol> i bet you could publish that (TM)
07:21:17 <coppro> that is, if L is a language of automata of some kind, such as Turing machines, then you try to split it into the notion of a program and its input
07:21:36 <oklopol> (TM is short for turing machine)
07:21:46 <coppro> and the program can be made abstratly into a transition graph
07:21:57 <coppro> (e.g. "this line will lead to this line or that line")
07:22:06 <coppro> or "this cell will lead to one of these four cells" in Befunge
07:23:04 <oklopol> sounds impossible to formalize
07:23:20 <oklopol> unless you define automata somehow
07:23:21 <coppro> I'm not sure if you can characterize it uniquely for all automata
07:24:17 <coppro> but a TM, for instance, could have its program graph defined to be the set of transitions, with edges existing from one transition to another if they can follow each other.
07:24:29 <coppro> actually, that might be sufficient
07:24:52 <coppro> yeah, there's no obvious unique characterization
07:25:18 <oklopol> you can usually associate a transition graph to any kind of computation, yes
07:25:35 <oklopol> but i don't think it has that much to do with the wire-crossing problem
07:25:35 <coppro> it's not a state graph though
07:26:22 <coppro> and I think this matters
07:26:30 <coppro> or I could be sleep-deprivede
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07:46:54 <zzo38> Is there a kind of infinity that is used like a algebraic variable representing a nonzero real number but when it is compared is greater than any real number?
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07:52:33 <oklopol> zzo38: sure, but you automatically get quite a lot of infinite numbers if you further assume the axioms of reals except for Dedekind completeness
07:52:38 <oklopol> also you're not here anymore
07:53:13 <oklopol> there was a recent nice survey on arxiv on ordered fields recently, but i lost it and haven't been able to find it :(
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08:15:52 <oklopol> whii i didn't imagine it, http://arxiv.org/pdf/1204.4483v1.pdf
08:16:07 <oklopol> not really a survey on ordered fields, instead what they say in there
08:16:23 <oklopol> only had to look through a few thousand articles on my mailing list :D
08:19:53 <oklopol> (whii is the finnish version of whee which is simultanously pronounced "why i", as the deep national depression oozes into the briefest moment of happiness)
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09:00:21 <oklopol> short for hi for situations when you are mostly saying hi to yourself.
09:02:56 <oklopol> but there's a bit of hi for you too
09:11:07 <Taneb> Well, I don't think this style of programming will ever be popular
09:17:08 <Taneb> predXXIV = s (s (k s) (s (k (s (k s))) (s (s (k s) (s (k (s (k s))) (s (k (s (k k))) (s (s (k s) k) (k (s (k (s (k (s i)))) (s (k (s (k k))) (s (k (s i)) k)))))))) (k (k k))))) (k (k (k i)))
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09:22:45 <oklopol> yeah people just don't understand that if they simply bothered to learn programming with s and k, they would see that it's so much more expressive functional programming. in that you need to express so much more.
09:23:35 <nortti_> uhm. can someone explain why I have two nicks here after I use /reconnect?
09:23:48 <Taneb> I prefer to have access to B, C, W, an I
09:23:59 <Taneb> nortti_, because you've accidentally cloned yourself?
09:24:47 <Taneb> B x y z = x (y z); C x y z = x z y; W x y = x y y; I x = x
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09:36:19 <Sgeo> `pastequotes Sgeo
09:36:22 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.30909
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09:41:32 <quintopia> !bfjoust thebasics >>(+)*50<(-)*50(>)*7(> (+)*4 ([-{ [(-)*15 [+]] }[-]])%8 )*21
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09:41:41 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_thebasics: 22.7
09:42:02 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_thebasics: 0.0
09:43:23 <quintopia> !bfjoust thebasics >>(+)*50<(-)*50(>)*7(> (+)*4 ([-{ [(-)*50 [+]] }[-]])%8 )*21
09:43:26 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_thebasics: 20.4
09:43:33 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_thebasics: 0.0
09:43:52 <quintopia> apparentlythe simple stuff is only enough to get you 38th place these days
09:44:21 <quintopia> !bfjoust thebasics >>(+)*50<(-)*50(>)*7(> (+)*4 ([-{ [(-)*15 [+]] }[-]])%8 [+])*21
09:44:23 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_thebasics: 22.8
09:44:36 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_thebasics: 0.0
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10:02:37 <Gregor> http://www.facebook.com/LawlabeeTheWallaby/posts/3457120980849 The latest in my Beijing epic.
10:03:33 <Gregor> I still haven't found the opportunity to eat Peking Duck without being ripped off, but I will; I have a week.
10:13:29 <Gregor> Think I should go to Qin's Tasty and Spicy Crabs?
10:13:44 <Gregor> AKA best/worst Engrish name for a restaurant in history?
10:13:45 <Taneb> Not likely to get duck there
10:13:51 <Gregor> I don't need duck today.
10:13:59 <Taneb> Qin could actually serve tasty and spicy crabs
10:14:19 <Gregor> Yes, it is a crab restaurant.
10:14:31 <Taneb> Go for it, if you like crab
10:14:34 <Sgeo> I can't remember the context for something I saidn in here last year
10:14:38 <Sgeo> Looking at logs does not help.
10:16:12 <quintopia> yeah your experiences of being gawked at are not that unusual i think. i think you might find the drunk cosmopolitan set gawks less. go see a nightclub.
10:16:25 <quintopia> not to dance of corse. who would do that
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10:31:08 <fizzie> I have a spent-quite-a-bit-of-time-in-China friend who has mentioned the gawking, too.
10:33:17 <Vorpal> Gregor, you are in china, nice. Business trip or holidays?
10:34:32 <fizzie> Vorpal: A conference was mentioned, I thing. (It's fallen out of my /lastlog already, sadly.)
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10:34:48 <oklopol> i'm going to taipei in a few months, i expect to die of being murderously killed there.
10:36:02 <fizzie> I'm going to Belgium and I expect to survive.
10:36:17 <fizzie> But of course you never know, about Belgium.
10:36:33 <oklopol> i'm going to novgorod in about a month and expect to die there. of being murderously killed.
10:36:46 <Taneb> I'm going to Durham next month.
10:37:01 <Taneb> I expect to be brutally murdered by a convict prince-bishop
10:37:17 <oklopol> then in three months i'm going to corsica, and expect to die of sun poisoning and of being murderously killed.
10:38:45 <oklopol> conference trips are basically double the work, infinitle the plane trips that hurt my ears. as they say in english.
10:39:59 <fizzie> But you may get a free dinner.
10:40:41 <oklopol> also there's conferences in slovakia and uk but my coauthor does those. i prefer the murderous ones because he has a fetish for not being murderously killed.
10:41:33 <Taneb> What part of the UK?
10:41:48 <Taneb> S/he'll get murderously killed
10:41:49 <oklopol> http://www.mathcomp.leeds.ac.uk/turing2012/WScie12/
10:42:53 <fizzie> Taneb: What about... Sheffield? I think my "boss" was planning a visit there.
10:43:06 <Taneb> They've got trams and everything
10:43:12 <oklopol> fizzie: do you mean your wife ehehe
10:43:14 <Taneb> They're like trains, but on roads!
10:43:23 <kmc> trams are cool
10:43:39 <Taneb> They've also got steelworks
10:43:55 <Taneb> And someone who was in my IT class two years ago until she moved to Sheffield
10:43:55 <kmc> mainly because a tram can use a dedicated tunnel downtown more easily than a bus can
10:44:13 <kmc> if your trams run /only/ on the street, it probably makes sense to replace them with buses
10:44:19 <kmc> (you can still power the buses from overhead wires)
10:44:37 <Taneb> It's where the Full Monty is set
10:44:44 <Taneb> Have you ever seen the Full Monty?
10:44:51 <kmc> part of the tradeoff there (at least in the USA) is that the transit agency pays for rail upkeep, but the roads agency pays for road upkeep including the rail from buses
10:45:02 <kmc> and the roads agency has way more money always
10:45:10 <Taneb> It's about some out-of-work steel workers who do a strip tease
10:45:34 <kmc> er "including the wear from buses" yay for being awake far too late
10:45:40 <Taneb> Beamish and Melbourne have trams
10:47:05 <kmc> in boston there is a slightly ridiculous thing which runs as a diesel powered bus on the road, and then goes into a dedicated tunnel and runs off overhead wires
10:47:13 <kmc> but that tunnel is much bigger than it would need to be for rail vehicles
10:47:15 <fizzie> Helsinki has trams, though I don't recall any dedicated tunnels. (It's not a very dense place anyway.)
10:47:19 <fizzie> They also have a new model of tram just about to be introduced, there's a prototype for people to go look at/sit in somewhere.
10:48:07 <fizzie> Also, last week or so there was this mini-conference thing, and they had booked one of the museum trams as transportation from the lecture place to the dinner place.
10:48:49 <fizzie> They've got some 1930s tram carriages they rent for events.
10:49:26 <kmc> that's cool
10:49:33 <fizzie> And I think in summer they have some that do a daily or weekly thing.
10:49:43 <kmc> new york city has a subway museum which is full of vintage cars
10:49:50 <kmc> and the museum itself is a decommissioned subway station
10:50:13 <kmc> helsinki tram is metre gauge o_O
10:50:21 <nortti> yay. sain pc98 touhout pyörimään
10:52:02 <fizzie> Oh, and they have that one tram in which they serve alcoholic beverages, the "PUB" line.
10:54:38 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sp%C3%A5rakoff -- hey, it's notable.
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11:32:45 <Taneb> I wrote a program this morning and already someone wants to put it on Uncyclopedia
11:41:40 <Taneb> Aaaah you're everywhere
11:45:01 <Patashu> '<Taneb> I wrote a program this morning and already someone wants to put it on Uncyclopedia'
11:45:11 <Taneb> http://hpaste.org/69700
11:45:41 <Taneb> Factorial calculator
11:46:01 <Taneb> Nah, this is for fun
11:46:08 <Taneb> And the possible inspiration for a contest
11:46:33 <Taneb> Almost all computation is done by (<*>), pure, and unsafeCoerce
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13:33:29 <elliott> mroman: Do you also reverse > and < in the palindromes?
13:51:36 <elliott> Maybe you should use a word that isn't "reverse" :)
13:51:46 <mroman> I don't know an exact english word for this?
13:52:09 <elliott> "mirror" sounds reasonable to me. I don't think it really matters what you call it, but I'd define it on the page, since it's quite ambiguous.
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13:52:29 <elliott> mroman: BTW, you don't need a full "equivalency" in terms of the final tape to prove TCness by translation of brainfuck.
13:52:35 <elliott> TCness only cares about whether the program halts or not.
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13:54:39 <elliott> someone write a blurb for Sortle and i'll feature it :P
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13:58:39 <mroman> (http://esolangs.org/wiki/BFFB <- is that less confusing?)
13:59:32 <mroman> elliott: Yes. But as of my understanding his method does not produce a program that does the same thing.
13:59:59 <elliott> mroman: Well, you gotta define "same thing" :)
14:00:05 <elliott> Does it halt iff the BF program halts? Then it's sufficient for TCness.
14:00:09 <elliott> And yes, that's less confusing.
14:00:12 <mroman> It translates the program to a valid prorgam which does something else.
14:00:29 <elliott> Define "does something else".
14:00:37 <mroman> It halts in a different state
14:00:59 <mroman> I consider P and R only to be equivalent if P halts in the same state as R
14:01:09 <mroman> BF does not need I/O to be TC, right?
14:01:37 <elliott> What I'm trying to say is that the halting state is irrelevant.
14:01:46 <mroman> If I calculate the number 3 with +++-
14:01:55 <elliott> To prove TCness, all you need to prove is that you can translate a Turing machine blah blah into a program that halts iff the Turing machine does.
14:02:21 <mroman> elliott: That proves TCness.
14:02:35 <mroman> But it does not prove, that every BF program has an equivalent bfb program.
14:02:43 <mroman> In terms of "halting in the same state"
14:02:54 <elliott> That seems a weird thing to wonder about :)
14:03:19 <mroman> If I execute +++- I calculated 2 in memory.
14:03:22 <mroman> and thats my halting state
14:03:40 <elliott> Would it not be better to consider IO instead?
14:04:05 <mroman> If you only consider "producing same i/o output" then his method works, yes.
14:04:53 <mroman> int i = 0; puts("hi!");
14:05:02 <mroman> int i = 0; puts("hi!");
14:05:14 <mroman> I don't consider those programs "equivalent".
14:05:41 <elliott> I'm pretty sure you're in the minority there.
14:05:56 <Vorpal> mroman, hm would you consider an optimiser for BF that changes one for the other to be incorrect then as well?
14:06:11 <mroman> Vorpal: If the resulting halting state is different, yes.
14:06:26 <elliott> A definition of "equivalent" depending on internal state -- even basically dead code -- like that is doomed to be more or less useless, IMO.
14:06:52 <mroman> If you strip bf from its i/o
14:07:29 <mroman> and I don't think that bf programs are required to do i/o
14:07:30 <elliott> That'd just leave a language which only either halts or not halts.
14:07:37 <Vorpal> usually you are just interested in if it halts
14:07:42 <elliott> There's no requirement at all to define BF in terms of exposing its final state.
14:07:52 <elliott> The tape can be part of the black box.
14:09:17 <elliott> fizzie: Hey, did I ask you how much you paid for the bundle?
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14:09:57 <mroman> People usually say that my definition of equivalence is broken ;)
14:10:19 <mroman> e.g i consider [0..Infinity] and [0..Infinity] to be equal :)
14:11:20 <Taneb> elliott, for reference, future me paid at least $10
14:11:53 <elliott> X and X are equal? Shocking.
14:14:15 <Taneb> The set of computable truths is not equal to the set of provable truths
14:14:33 <Taneb> I have no idea if that sentence means anything
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14:17:30 <mroman> elliott: I consider x = x yes.
14:17:40 <mroman> But people don't consider _|_ = _|_
14:20:20 <elliott> And [0..] isn't _|_, anyway.
14:21:08 <Vorpal> interestingly enough NaN != NaN. That's IEEE floating point for you...
14:21:17 <Vorpal> (in other words floating point sucks)
14:21:44 <Taneb> Not in #haskell, either
14:22:08 <fizzie> That's not worth four !s.
14:22:16 <Taneb> `cat "main = print (0 / 0 == 0 / 0)" | runhaskell
14:22:18 <HackEgo> cat: "main = print (0 / 0 == 0 / 0)" | runhaskell: No such file or directory
14:22:26 <Taneb> `echo "main = print (0 / 0 == 0 / 0)" | runhaskell
14:22:29 <HackEgo> "main = print (0 / 0 == 0 / 0)" | runhaskell
14:22:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, you don't think fungot is worth four !?
14:22:43 <elliott> they actually quat together
14:22:46 <mroman> elliott: The guys in #ghc disagreed.
14:22:49 <elliott> 14:52 lambdabot has left IRC (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
14:22:49 <elliott> 14:52 fungot has left IRC (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
14:23:08 <elliott> mroman: perhaps they meant that x == y does not necessarily evaluate to True when x and y are both _|_.
14:23:16 <Taneb> lambdabot <3 fungot
14:23:20 <elliott> from a denotational semantics point of view, _|_ and _|_ are unquestionably equal.
14:23:32 <elliott> anyway, there are almost certainly incompetent people in #ghc
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14:23:38 <elliott> although probably less than in #haskell
14:23:42 <fungot> Taneb: trillian is a very silly film) :) y z i think it depends
14:23:54 <Taneb> elliott, I think that may be a virtue of population
14:24:00 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
14:24:07 <fungot> Selected style: ss (Shakespeare's writings)
14:24:12 <Taneb> fungot, have at ye!
14:24:14 <fungot> Taneb: fitz. if that goe forward, we will cover it. take no offence that i would bestow vpon your worship, to correct yourself, for the thing it was.
14:24:14 <fizzie> elliott: Oh, and I paid $15. Felt like I should go a bit above the Linux-user average.
14:24:32 <elliott> fizzie: You leave me with no choice but to pay $15.01.
14:24:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: How much did you pay.
14:24:56 <Vorpal> <elliott> mroman: perhaps they meant that x == y does not necessarily evaluate to True when x and y are both _|_. <-- hm, why is that?
14:24:59 <mroman> elliott: I may have asked stuff like "why reverse [1..] == reverse [1..]" does not compute in human time although they are obviously equal
14:25:26 <elliott> mroman: That's a very, very different question.
14:25:28 <Vorpal> mroman, because the optimiser isn't smart enough for that?
14:25:33 <mroman> and f(x) == f(x) no matter if f terminates or not.
14:25:35 <elliott> mroman: And as I've said: [1..] *is not _|_*
14:25:39 <Phantom_Hoover> I payed 10 because I don't obsessively optimise like you.
14:25:56 <elliott> There is not a single _|_ in the graph of values that comprises [1..], in fact.
14:26:00 <elliott> (But reverse [1..] is _|_.)
14:26:10 <mroman> elliott: Then why is f(x) == f(x) not always true?
14:26:13 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, you paid more than fizzie!
14:26:28 <elliott> Anyway, (reverse [1..] == reverse [1..]) is _|_ because that's how (==) is defined for lists. You are confusing (==) (a function in Haskell) with = (the concept of mathematical equality).
14:26:47 <elliott> BTW, having reverse [1..] == reverse [1..] would break referential transparency.
14:26:56 <mroman> My idea was to reduce everything as much as possible
14:27:04 <elliott> Consider: reverse [1..] == haltIffGoldbach'sConjecture
14:27:06 <mroman> and then compare expressions and optimize everything away
14:27:09 <elliott> Assuming Goldbach's conjecture is false.
14:27:20 <elliott> Then, since haltIffGoldbach'sConjecture = _|_ and reverse [1..] = _|_, this must be true.
14:27:23 <elliott> Assuming Goldbach's conjecture is true,
14:27:34 <elliott> Then, since haltIffGoldbach'sConjecture is [] (or something) and reverse [1..] = _|_, this must be false.
14:28:00 <elliott> So Haskell cannot have reverse [1..] == reverse [1..] evaluate to True without destroying referential transparency.
14:28:17 <mroman> That's the part I never got.
14:28:26 <mroman> I can substitute reverse [1..] with x
14:28:29 <mroman> and x == x should be true.
14:28:31 <elliott> Referential transparency means you must be able to replace an expression with its value.
14:28:40 <elliott> If reverse [1..] is _|_, and an expression containing reverse [1..] evaluates to something,
14:28:46 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, dressed as a clown with no money, tied to a train on its way to Vladivostok
14:28:47 <elliott> it /must/ evaluate to that same thing whenever you substitute anything else that is _|_.
14:28:52 <Phantom_Hoover> mroman, how do you know you can substitute both sides with the same thing?
14:29:04 <mroman> Phantom_Hoover: referential transpare...
14:29:04 <Phantom_Hoover> It's obvious from textual analysis in this case, but not in general.
14:29:18 <mroman> Same function, same input => same output, always
14:29:30 <Taneb> mroman, (==) can't know that
14:29:36 <elliott> mroman: The point is that you *cannot* add this one special case, however "obvious" it is, because you give yourself the obligation to make it work the same way even when it is NOT so trivial.
14:29:49 <Phantom_Hoover> (Hint: you can't, it's isomorphic to the halting problem.)
14:30:48 <Taneb> That that is computably true is not all that that is provably true is not all that that is true
14:30:51 <mroman> 1.) textual analysis 2.) optimization 3.) dovetailing
14:30:54 <elliott> mroman: If you don't do that, you break referential transparency, and hence all equational reasoning.
14:31:20 <elliott> No matter how clever you do it, you must choose between breaking RT and equational reasoning, or computing the impossible in all cases.
14:31:45 <Vorpal> As a side note: IIRC Fortran allows optimisation based on textual equivalence. Which is rather stupid in a non-pure language.
14:32:06 <elliott> mroman: Perhaps you are thinking of True as an "optimisation" of _|_.
14:32:19 <elliott> It is OK if between two equivalent expressions, one returns True and one returns _|_.
14:32:25 <elliott> That's not true; it violates RT all the same.
14:33:19 <mroman> two equivalent expressions yield the same result.
14:33:20 <Phantom_Hoover> <mroman> 1.) textual analysis 2.) optimization 3.) dovetailing
14:33:38 <Phantom_Hoover> You realise this is basically impossible to do programatically for non-trivial cases?
14:34:00 <mroman> It certainly is in complex languages like haskell.
14:34:15 <Phantom_Hoover> You're basically asking that a useless special case be added to (==).
14:34:47 <mroman> last [1..] * 0 also does not halt
14:35:13 <mroman> humans don't even try to evaluate last [1..]
14:36:10 <mroman> pattern matching isn't dovetailed.
14:36:47 <Vorpal> that is an usually useless special case to * instead. And if you want to catch all cases, then you need to check at runtime if one of the arguments evaluated to 0. Which won't work since one of them could take forever to evaluate
14:37:07 <mroman> Vorpal: It does not matter if one takes forever
14:37:23 <Vorpal> how does it know which one to evaluate first
14:37:30 <Taneb> mroman, which do you try first, and when do you stop trying?
14:37:31 <mroman> Vorpal: It does so in parallel
14:37:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: By the way, your argument is irrelevant.
14:37:55 <elliott> The specific special-case could be added to the compiler easily.
14:38:06 <elliott> What matters is that it would BREAK REFERENTIAL TRANSPARENCY.
14:38:31 <Vorpal> mroman, so you want to force it to start two threads at each multiplication...?
14:38:54 <elliott> mroman: You can do that (the last [1..] * 0 thing) with the lub package and that can work fine.
14:38:57 <elliott> mroman: I already told you why.
14:39:13 <mroman> 16:27 < elliott> Consider: reverse [1..] == haltIffGoldbach'sConjecture
14:39:26 <mroman> ^- you can't say anything about that.
14:39:29 <elliott> If reverse [1..] == reverse [1..] evaluates to True, then reverse [1..] == haltIffGoldbach must evaluate to True iff Goldbach's conjecture is false.
14:39:31 <mroman> you have to dovetail both of them.
14:39:39 <elliott> I can very well say something about that.
14:40:48 <mroman> why must reverse [1..] == haltIff... evaluate to true?
14:41:11 <elliott> Referential transparency tells us we can substitute any two expressions with identical values.
14:41:22 <elliott> Hence, assuming the excluded middle, I will consider two cases:
14:41:28 <elliott> First, assume Goldbach's conjecture is true.
14:41:40 <elliott> Thus, haltIffGoldbach evaluates to [].
14:41:56 <elliott> Thus, reverse [1..] == haltIffGoldbach must be either False or _|_.
14:42:08 <elliott> Next, assume Goldbach's conjecture is false.
14:42:15 <elliott> Thus, haltIffGoldbach evaluates to _|_.
14:42:22 <elliott> Now, we know that reverse [1..] evaluates to _|_.
14:42:31 <elliott> Take the statement "reverse [1..] == reverse [1..] evaluates to True".
14:43:04 <elliott> By referential transparency, we can substitute "haltIffGoldbach" for "reverse [1..]" in this statement: (being able to do this is a STRICT requirement for referential transparency and equational reasoning)
14:43:15 <elliott> Resulting in "reverse [1..] == haltIffGoldbach evaluates to True".
14:43:35 <elliott> Popping off any assumption about Goldbach's conjecture, we can see that Haskell is required to decide whether Goldbach's conjecture is true.
14:43:49 <Taneb> I swear, I'm learning everything in the wrong order.
14:44:01 <elliott> Because if reverse [1..] == reverse [1..] evaluates to True, reverse [1..] == haltIffGoldbach MUST evaluate to True if Goldbach's conjecture is true, or False or _|_ if it is false.
14:44:07 <Vorpal> elliott, hm, out of interest, is it possible to implement haltIffGoldbach'sConjecture? I can see how to implement the opposite (you just have to write a function that goes on until it finds a counter example).
14:44:08 <elliott> Therefore, you either must:
14:44:17 <mroman> I don't get why you can replace reverse [1..] with iffHalt..
14:44:21 <elliott> - break referential transparency and all equational reasoning; or
14:44:22 <mroman> you don't know what reverse [1..] is.
14:44:25 <elliott> - not add your special case.
14:44:36 <elliott> Do you want me to prove reverse [1..] is _|_? That seems a little trivial.
14:44:53 <elliott> I don't think you understand denotational semantics or equational reasoning at all, frankly.
14:44:55 <Taneb> Here we go again...
14:45:02 <elliott> Or, possibly, referential transparency.
14:45:07 <elliott> So I'm sort of done with this argument.
14:45:20 <elliott> Vorpal: Oh, right, you have to negate it.
14:45:24 <elliott> Vorpal: Same argument applies, of course.
14:45:25 <mroman> Phantom_Hoover: It's probably some fold with flip and :
14:45:30 <Taneb> elliott, did you see my obfuscated haskell that doesn't do what the one yesterday does?
14:45:31 <Vorpal> elliott, well yes, obviously
14:45:44 <elliott> Taneb: It doesn't segfault? Gosh.
14:46:02 <Taneb> http://hpaste.org/69700
14:46:06 <mroman> elliott: Obviously I don't understand any of them.
14:46:12 <mroman> I'm not a computer scientist at all.
14:46:13 <Phantom_Hoover> mroman, OK look can you actually tell me any element of reverse [1...]?
14:46:29 <elliott> mroman: I'm not trying to be insulting, but your position truly is untenable.
14:46:40 <Taneb> I now have the dubious honour of having my code quoted on Uncyclopedia
14:46:47 <mroman> Phantom_Hoover: 8 probably
14:46:58 <Vorpal> mroman, uh, in the reversed one...
14:47:19 <Vorpal> indeed, that is why reverse [1..] is _|_
14:47:33 <elliott> mroman: It really is mathematically incoherent and you can try to defend it as a matter of "opinion" but in reality there is some deeper misunderstanding you have (I don't know what) that will hold you back as you try to learn about denotational semantics and equational reasoning and all of that.
14:47:43 <mroman> The problem is, I don't consider _|_ as a value.
14:47:43 <elliott> Your choice if you want to keep it that way.
14:48:03 <elliott> mroman: It is. Have you learned denotational semantics yet?
14:48:14 <mroman> reverse [1..] is a function that at some point in time will or will not return anything.
14:48:22 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, hmm wait isn't there a difference on some level between _|_ and Constructor _|_.
14:48:35 <elliott> You could come up with a semantics where _|_ is not a value.It would not be denotational and it would probably be a lot less useful, but it's disingenuous (i.e. blatantly wrong) to argue that _|_ is not a value in denotational semantics.
14:48:38 <Vorpal> mroman, it will trivially never halt.
14:49:01 <Taneb> length [_|_] == 1; length _|_ == _|_, right?
14:49:06 <mroman> Vorpal: But you can't prove that for all functions.
14:49:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Reduce the definition yourself.
14:49:24 <mroman> "The function always evaluates the same result value given the same argument value(s). "
14:49:37 <mroman> and that is what my base of argumentation is ;)
14:49:39 <Vorpal> mroman, of course not. And?
14:49:43 <elliott> Can someone let me know when this nonsense stops going in circles?
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14:49:46 <mroman> reverse [1..] yields the same result as reverse [1..]
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14:51:29 <mroman> And I don't care if it halts or not, because I know that they must yield the same result
14:51:54 <mroman> but I don't know the result of reverse [1..]
14:52:27 <mroman> Yeah, by the common definition.
14:52:44 <mroman> But why do you consider "does not halt" as a result?
14:53:22 <mroman> I don't see why we can assume "does not halt" as a result.
14:53:48 <Phantom_Hoover> mroman, because that's the way the entire system is defined, so if you disagree with it you're not actually talking about the same thing as everyone else.
14:55:57 <mroman> So a function can result in
14:56:04 <mroman> a value, "does not halt"
14:56:10 <Phantom_Hoover> mroman, FWIW referential transparency is defined based on the definition of 'same' that requires that two functions that do not halt are the same.
14:56:14 <mroman> and what in the case where you can't prove any option of them?
14:57:31 <Phantom_Hoover> i.e. you don't know whether the associated computation halts.
14:58:17 <mroman> and how do you express that?
14:58:27 <mroman> Is that bottom, or not bottom, or nothing at all?
14:58:48 <Taneb> That's "I don't know whether it's bottom or not"
14:59:13 <Phantom_Hoover> OK look just sit tight, wait for someone who knows what they're doing to try to teach you and accept everything they say uncritically.
15:03:17 <mroman> I'd always wonder what if functions that do not halt don't yield "does not halt" ;)
15:03:42 <Taneb> Then go out there and find someone willing to teach you
15:03:53 <mroman> If you consider "does not halt" as a value, than I understand you and elliot completely.
15:06:46 <Taneb> In other news, my hand's almost healed
15:06:59 <Phantom_Hoover> mroman, oooh, elliott hates it when people get his name wrong.
15:07:24 <mroman> I'm pretty sure he hates me for several other reasons ;D
15:07:41 <Taneb> I'm not entirely sure if elliott has the ability to hate.
15:08:00 <Taneb> He may be severely ashamed of your existence, but I doubt he hates you.
15:08:24 <Taneb> But hey, I'm a nave idealist.
15:10:33 <Taneb> elliott's word on this "I... expect so?"
15:10:50 <Taneb> And now I will go put things away
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15:50:29 <elliott> kmc: marlow just usurped you :P
16:06:52 <ion> ಠ_ಠ http://www.courthousenews.com/2012/06/06/47162.htm
16:39:16 <elliott> @tell Patashu I hope your seed scummer thing annotates the recording/save file appropriately, like wizmode does in most roguelikes.
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17:06:58 <elliott> After a reality bomb goes off at the first ever ShatnerCon, all of the characters ever played by William Shatner are suddenly sucked into our world. Their mission: hunt down and destroy the real William Shatner. Featuring: Captain Kirk, TJ Hooker, Denny Crane, Priceline Shatner, Cartoon Kirk, Rescue 9-1-1 Shatner, singer Shatner, and many more. No costumed con-goer will be spared in their wave of destruction, no red shirt will make it
17:06:59 <elliott> out alive, and not even the Klingons will be able to stand up to a deranged Captain Kirk with a light saber. But these Shatner- clones are about to learn a hard lesson . . . that the real William Shatner doesn't take crap from anybody. Not even himself.
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18:32:39 <Vorpal> elliott, is that a real movie?
18:32:56 <Vorpal> still pretty amazing idea
18:33:03 <elliott> But only if Shatner played all the Shatners.
18:33:45 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm not sure what that refers to
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18:35:14 <Vorpal> yeah he couldn't play that himself I guess :P
18:35:30 <Vorpal> the voice acting I guess
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18:48:14 <quintopia> is there an irc channel where people know algorithms really well and are helpful and talkative
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18:50:19 <elliott> one out of three ain't bad
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18:52:07 <elliott> quintopia: is your scoring done yet
18:52:18 <quintopia> that is why i want to talk to algorithms people
18:52:43 <quintopia> i suspect that i could get away without using the sledgehammer of linpack
18:53:01 <quintopia> if i had someone competent at bayesian methods to talk to
18:53:17 <elliott> yeah i'm sure linpack will be super slow
18:53:38 <quintopia> finding all the eigenvales when i only need one eigenvector will be slow
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18:55:42 <HackEgo> kappabot: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
18:56:15 <HackEgo> KAPPABOT: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.)
18:57:06 <kappabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
18:57:12 <kappabot> http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/COMMANDS
18:57:38 <shachaf> elliott: No! You might run code on my server.
18:57:44 <elliott> I already know your password!
18:57:54 <shachaf> Today I told elliott my password.
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18:58:39 <HackEgo> 46) <pikhq> Gregor is often a scandalous imposter. It's all the hats, I tell you. \ 180) <cpressey> fizzie: I can never tell with OpenBSD! <cpressey> everything looks like an error anyway \ 253) <oerjan> <Gregor> oerjan: Tell us what (a(b{c}d)*2e)%2 expands to <-- ababcdbcdedbabcdbcdede, i think <Gregor> oerjan: What - the - fuck \ 313) <elliott> A priori one cannot say that post hoc ergo propter hoc the diminishing
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18:58:54 <HackEgo> 550) <CakeProphet> monqy: help how do I use lambdabot to send messages to people. [...around half an hour later...] <CakeProphet> @messages <lambdabot> quicksilver said 1y 2m 18d 19h 54m 29s ago: you use @tell
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19:00:24 <monqy> you know how when your sasl auth times out and you just don't feel like manually identifying
19:00:51 <elliott> i identify manually with this client because it fails to do it automatically for some reason
19:01:04 <elliott> my main client just uses a server password
19:01:43 <shachaf> elliott: "is your irc password the same as your other passwords"
19:02:04 <elliott> monqy: did you know lambdabot is down :(
19:02:22 <quintopia> is you irc password the same as shaachaf's password?
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19:11:45 <elliott> monqy: I liked your Hell stairdancing.
19:11:56 <elliott> (I wasn't going to bother watching it but then I saw the Pandoora announcements in the log.)
19:12:33 <monqy> elliott: which one
19:12:36 <shachaf> You can tell it's secure because it has a digit in it.
19:12:47 <shachaf> Digits are harder to remember than letters, so you know they're more secure.
19:13:05 <monqy> hell is a stairdance party and ive been there multiple times in light
19:13:15 <elliott> monqy: The one you did earlier.
19:13:20 <monqy> elliott: also did you see the part where i got banished and quit
19:13:33 <elliott> By "quit", do you mean "converted to Lugonu"?
19:13:41 <elliott> I... was present when you got banished and quit.
19:13:43 <monqy> the lugonu altar was right next to where I got banished
19:14:03 <elliott> I don't understand what you mean by quit, though.
19:14:07 <elliott> That was an earlier game I saw live, wasn't it?
19:14:09 <monqy> the joke is that i didnt
19:14:24 <elliott> 16:11 <elliott> @ask monqy WOW HOW DID YOU FIND A LUGONU ALTAR THAT QUICKLY
19:14:24 <elliott> 16:11 Error(401): lambdabot No such nick/channel
19:14:25 <quintopia> shachaf: also the fact that there over 60 million passwords using 5 alphanumeric characters! guessing it by brute force could take almost an hour!
19:14:43 <elliott> monqy: I'm disappointed you did non-orb-run Hive.
19:14:48 <elliott> I bet orb run Hive would be exciting.
19:16:08 <monqy> if i got to hive on orb run i wouldnt do it
19:18:28 <elliott> monqy: Another brogue release came out!
19:21:51 <elliott> There was a... slight bug: http://i.imgur.com/Xw7eo.png
19:22:32 <monqy> is anything else in the release
19:23:17 <elliott> The ally damage doubled instead of added, or something.
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20:17:13 <elliott> monqy: Why is it so early?
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20:27:03 * Sgeo wonders if there's any good reason for Pidgin to be using XML
20:28:31 <Vorpal> h<elliott> There was a... slight bug: http://i.imgur.com/Xw7eo.png <-- interesting looking game
20:28:44 <shachaf> Vorpal: Golf your regexps. :-(
20:29:11 <shachaf> elliott: Wait, is that your roguelike?
20:29:12 <Vorpal> shachaf, when used on IRC, clarity is way more important
20:29:15 <elliott> Vorpal: It's brogue. It's pretty. It's fun. Play it!
20:29:20 <Vorpal> shachaf, no the future is just more capable hardware
20:29:47 <elliott> shachaf: But thank you for the implicit compliment in assuming I could produce something like that.
20:29:51 <Vorpal> can't find it by googling, it is apparently an Irish word though
20:30:04 <Vorpal> err, refers to an Irish accent even
20:30:23 <shachaf> elliott: I meant that your "roguelike" was a static textmap with a quarter of a map and some coloured text.
20:30:32 <shachaf> Vorpal: Hint: Add "game" to query.
20:30:42 <shachaf> "this advice brought to you by: the letter monqy"
20:30:45 <zzo38> The system operator seems to not be on X-BIT anymore
20:30:45 <Vorpal> shachaf, that is what I did
20:31:02 <elliott> Vorpal: https://sites.google.com/site/broguegame/
20:31:14 <Vorpal> elliott, I found it already :O
20:31:31 <shachaf> @tell monqy @tell shachaf to look up brogue
20:31:32 <Vorpal> I'm typing at an awkward angle here
20:31:40 <Vorpal> blame that for my typos
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20:50:29 <ais523> `joustprog quintopia_zoom
20:50:32 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: joustprog: not found
20:50:33 <ais523> `jousturl quintopia_zoom
20:50:35 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/quintopia_zoom.bfjoust
20:51:05 <elliott> I like how ais523 just makes up program names.
20:51:12 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: greet: not found
20:51:18 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
20:51:23 <elliott> shachaf: Will you play brogue?
20:51:27 <ais523> EgoBot: you mean HackEgo commands?
20:51:36 <elliott> `run echo '#!/bin'sh' >bin/joustreport
20:51:39 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
20:51:42 <elliott> `run echo '#!/bin/sh' >bin/joustreport
20:51:46 <ais523> I'm trying to figure out if it's worth improving shudderlock, and I'm not convinced it is
20:51:48 <shachaf> elliott: Remind me ot play brogue later.
20:51:53 <elliott> `run echo "echo 'http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/report.txt'" >>bin/joustreport
20:51:56 <elliott> `run chmod +x bin/joustreport
20:52:01 <ais523> the strategy might beat death_to_defence by defending
20:52:03 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/joustreport: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/joustreport: cannot execute: Permission denied
20:52:05 <ais523> but I don't think it's /viable/
20:52:08 <quintopia> ais523: you wouldn't happen to know a good "idiot's guide to lapack" would you?
20:52:10 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/report.txt
20:53:45 <oerjan> the complete idiots guide to insults
20:54:23 <quintopia> ais523: you wouldnt happen to know a good regular-lock-on-flag style defense strategy that works for 2-cycle clears on both polarities without requiring much synchronization would you? all i can think is "use the smallest adjustments to flag possible with shortest clear time possible and risk running out of time"
20:55:24 <oerjan> crash testing for dummies
20:55:38 <ais523> quintopia: hmm; (+)*256(.)*256 is reasonably viable if you can hit the right half of the opposing program's clear loop
20:55:45 <ais523> works better on one polarity than the other, but can work on either
20:55:53 <ais523> (you put your full-tape clear in the (.)*256)
20:56:31 <ais523> shudderlock uses (+)*64(-)*64(+)*64(-)*64(+)*64(.)*64 in order to defeat death_to_defence, but it seems a bit finicky about the details
20:56:47 <ais523> and that pattern doesn't work on the flag, but only next to the flag
20:57:00 <ais523> (has occasional zero-for-two-cycle moments)
20:57:06 <quintopia> ais523: it fails if you are in the (+)*256 part while opponent is doing [-] and the flag starts at wrong value
20:57:31 <ais523> there's no generic lock algorithm that works on everything with no synchronization, or I'd have used it already :)
20:57:51 <ais523> if you start the (+)*256 while your flag is positive, though, it's reasonably safe
20:58:13 <quintopia> but if you start it before the opponent gets there...it won't be positive :P
20:58:31 <ais523> I don't think you can reliably lock with no synchronization at all
20:59:17 <quintopia> what if you do (.++)*192 instead? would that give you a little more leeway for the opponent arriving late?
21:00:38 <kmc> elliott: usurped?
21:01:05 <elliott> http://community.haskell.org/~simonmar/async-stm/Control-Concurrent-Async.html
21:01:05 <kmc> explain plz
21:01:19 <elliott> async + wait + waitThrow ~ spawn
21:01:28 <kmc> there are already like 5000 of these libraries on Hackage
21:01:40 <elliott> Therefore you are usurped.
21:01:48 <elliott> And also this is going into the base package.
21:02:01 <kmc> 'spawn' is different because there's no new type for "asynchronous actions" / "threads" / whatever
21:02:14 <kmc> so yeah it's IO a -> IO (IO a) not IO a -> IO (Async a)
21:02:19 <elliott> Fair enough. (But the new type doesn't really matter that much, since you could make spawn use a newtype and it'd be ~the same.)
21:02:24 <kmc> obviously the latter gives you a lot more functionality
21:02:29 <kmc> but the former is more convenient
21:02:46 <elliott> Well, it's exactly a "wait " more convenient, I guess :)
21:02:46 <kmc> and pleases me better as a fusion of imperative and functional programming
21:02:58 <elliott> I tend to prefer using a newtype for things like that for clarity.
21:03:07 <kmc> elliott: well it's also the difference between mapM wait and sequence
21:03:26 <zzo38> Things like IO (IO a) then you can use join
21:03:27 <kmc> anyway this is not a big difference
21:03:46 <shachaf> race :: IO a -> IO b -> IO (Either a b)
21:05:03 <zzo38> shachaf: And, what would you mean by that race?
21:05:17 <shachaf> zzo38: Exactly what Marlow means.
21:06:31 <elliott> zzo38: race m n = do { var <- newEmptyMVar; rec { threadA <- forkIO ((m >>= putMVar var) >> killThread threadB); threadB <- forkIO ((n >>= putMVar var) >> killThread threadA) }; takeMVar var }
21:07:03 <shachaf> zzo38: You forgot Left and Right.
21:07:32 <elliott> Damn, how did you discover my sockpuppet?
21:07:57 <zzo38> elliott: It is because you threw all of your socks on the floor, everyone can find them
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21:12:43 <zzo38> I fail to understand what rec means there?
21:13:26 <elliott> See the documentation for the DoRec extension.
21:14:05 <zzo38> How would it be written without using do and rec?
21:16:31 <oerjan> mfix (\(threadA, threadB) -> liftM2 (,) (forkIO ((m >>= putMVar var) >> killThread threadB) (forkIO ((n >>= putMVar var) >> killThread threadA)), i think
21:16:39 <elliott> zzo38: Using mfix in a far more ugly manner than I can be bothered with.
21:18:01 <zzo38> I do not even understand mfix well either
21:18:57 <elliott> zzo38: Just read the rec as a mutually recursive binding there
21:20:01 <zzo38> But what does a mutually recursive binding even means in IO?
21:21:50 <oerjan> zzo38: it means mostly that mutation is used under the hood to change the bindings from errors to the final value when the IO action completes
21:23:03 <oerjan> which means that the IO actions should use the bindings only lazily
21:23:16 <elliott> Right, you could instead create two MVars to hold the thread ID of each.
21:23:24 <elliott> oerjan: (Not errors, are they?)
21:23:29 <elliott> (I assumed it'd just block, like takeMVar.)
21:23:37 <oerjan> elliott: i'm not sure. hm i guess.
21:23:38 <elliott> (In fact, I suspect it looks like this:)
21:24:01 <elliott> (mfix m = do { v <- newEmptyMVar; x <- m (takeMVar v); putMVar v x; return x })
21:24:20 <elliott> Except not quite, because it has to be takeMVar v >>= m and that wouldn't work.
21:24:42 <elliott> instance MonadFix IO where
21:25:03 <elliott> oerjan: You look it up. :p
21:25:05 <kappabot> Source not found. This mission is too important for me to allow you to jeopardize it.
21:25:29 <shachaf> elliott: I just downloaded the database, maan!
21:25:32 <oerjan> http://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/latest/html/libraries/base-4.5.0.0/src/System-IO.html#fixIO
21:25:46 <elliott> Right, I thought unsafeInterleaveIO might be involved.
21:27:06 <oerjan> lots of note about how this probably isn't always safe
21:29:34 <shachaf> 14:28 <elliott> class Monad m where box :: a -> m a; unbox :: m a -> a
21:29:47 <elliott> 22:24 <shachaf> The first monadic law is that a monad is a wrapper around another type. In Haskell, one has the IO String type, which is returned from functions that read from files, console input, or system calls – IO is a monad that wraps the String data type. jQuery obviously satisfies this condition, as it wraps DOM nodes retrieved through given queries.
21:29:56 <zzo38> That isn't a monad
21:29:58 <elliott> 22:24 <shachaf> The second monadic law is just as simple: all monads must have a function to wrap themselves around other data types. jQuery clearly has ways to apply itself to DOM nodes – you use the querying facilities to traverse the DOM, and if you’re feeling especially saucy, you can use pass the results of document.getElementsByTagName and its siblings to the jQuery object. Haskell refers to this as a type constructor – a
21:29:58 <elliott> function that takes some data an
21:30:11 <shachaf> I was quoting someone else there!
21:30:20 <shachaf> elliott, on the other hand, typed that thing in himself.
21:30:30 <shachaf> That particular line has never been typed before by anyone.
21:30:39 <elliott> I was channelling whoever wrote this other blog post.
21:30:59 <oerjan> The third monadic law says that everyone gets monads wrong.
21:32:51 <zzo38> I think it ought to be: class Functor m => Monad m where { return :: x -> m x; join :: m (m x) -> m x; }; well, not exactly; it should be done by making specificness of a monad generally in another category, and then add another instance that makes all monads to be also applicative in the categories where that is the case
21:34:55 <zzo38> shachaf: I forgot it on purpose because it is not a comonad
21:37:39 <zzo38> type MonadC (c :: z -> z -> *) (m :: z -> z) :: & = (Category c, EndofunctorC c m, MonadLawsC c m, method return :: c x (m x), method join :: c (m (m x)) (m x));
21:37:57 <zzo38> type Monad = MonadC (->);
21:39:15 <zzo38> If (->) of kind (* -> * -> *) then Monad of kind ((* -> *) -> &) due to these definitions.
21:40:00 <zzo38> In GHC, (->) is of kind (?? -> ? -> *) and Monad does not have a kind.
21:40:17 <zzo38> The code I posted above is meant for Ibtlfmm rather than Haskell since it won't work in Haskell
21:40:29 <elliott> Monad has kind * -> Constraint in GHC.
21:40:38 <elliott> (With the appropriate extensions.)
21:40:38 <shachaf> elliott: Which part is wrong?
21:40:54 <zzo38> elliott: Shouldn't it be: (* -> *) -> Constraint
21:40:55 <oerjan> elliott: (* -> *) -> Constraint, surely
21:41:19 <shachaf> * -> Constraint -> (Constraint,Constraint) -> *
21:41:59 <zzo38> shachaf: What would the (Constraint,Constraint) kind mean?
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21:43:05 <zzo38> At first I was using "kind" for data kinds, but perhaps "kind" should mean kind synonyms and "data kind" for data kinds, then you can write: kind Constraint = &; if you want to do so.
21:43:36 <oonbotti> yay. this time I really managed to remove all that debug junk
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21:45:49 <nortti> oonbotti: is eliza still working?
21:45:49 <oonbotti> Please consider whether you can answer your own question.
21:46:31 <oerjan> oonbotti: I often dream of gnomes.
21:46:44 <oonbotti> How do you feel when you say that?
21:46:51 <oonbotti> How do you feel when you say that?
21:46:55 <oonbotti> Let's change focus a bit... Tell me about your family.
21:50:53 <zzo38> And then give the name for other kind too: kind Natural = +; kind Module = @;
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21:55:43 <nortti> oonbotti: no errors made by cleanup?
21:55:44 <oonbotti> nortti: Please consider whether you can answer your own question.
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21:58:35 <nortti> oonbotti: I can't answer that before I have seen your eliza program working
21:58:35 <oonbotti> nortti: How do you know you can't answer that before you have seen my eliza program working?
22:00:05 <nortti> oonbotti: because python interpreter doesn't detect logical errors
22:00:05 <oonbotti> nortti: What other reasons come to mind?
22:00:21 <nortti> oonbotti: well that is the only one
22:01:26 <ais523> python interp doesn't even detect illogical erros
22:01:57 * oerjan wonders if eliza was the first wrapped shrink software
22:02:46 <ais523> that was a surprisingly good pun, for oerjan
22:02:50 <ais523> he normally makes bad ones
22:03:27 <ais523> hmm, I'm having a bit of cognitive dissonance trying to read that last line
22:04:29 <nortti> :\( is kinda weird emoticon
22:04:55 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pastlogs: not found
22:05:47 <oerjan> of course. we are not barbarians here.
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22:33:06 <zzo38> Can you make any Pokemon Card puzzle?
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22:43:51 <HackEgo> ssue: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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22:46:56 <Vorpal> elliott, he doesn't look new: * ssue has quit (*.net *.split)
22:47:10 <Vorpal> well, not that new at least
22:49:19 <Vorpal> god damn, ~/Images on my laptop is 40 GB
22:49:34 <Vorpal> it is supposed to be like that on the desktop
22:49:43 <Vorpal> well that explains where the disk space went at least
22:49:49 <nortti_> what? that is larger than my HD
22:50:26 <Vorpal> nortti_, I have a 250 GB in my laptop, and like 4 TB (but RAID 1 and dual booting, so 1 TB to linux and 1 TB to windows) in my desktop
22:50:41 <Vorpal> nortti_, anyway how is 40 GB images strange?
22:50:46 <Vorpal> also: what sort of disk do you have
22:51:48 <Vorpal> nortti_, my camera takes 14 MB RAW images. And I convert that into TIFF with 16 bits per channel (I do HDR photo, and panorama photo)
22:52:06 <Vorpal> a typical panorama project will end up at around 2 GB or so
22:52:10 <Vorpal> more if it is HDR as well
22:52:24 <Vorpal> (while non-panorama HDR is usually around 1 GB)
22:52:48 <Vorpal> nortti_, so yeah I'm just wondering why it is on my /laptop/
22:52:52 <Vorpal> rather than my desktop
22:53:13 <Vorpal> nortti_, anyway 30 GB HDD sounds utterly painful
22:54:05 <nortti_> Vorpal: year ago I had 10GB HD. It is relative
22:54:16 <Vorpal> nortti_, you know, my steam directory alone on windows is larger than your HDD XD
22:54:32 <Vorpal> nortti_, what you can buy a new 30 GB HDD?
22:55:02 <tswett> Last-first search. LFS.
22:55:05 <Vorpal> that is only well defined for one search result?
22:55:07 <nortti_> Vorpal: no. it was on different computer
22:55:11 <Vorpal> if the last item is also the first one
22:55:23 <Vorpal> nortti_, you can buy a new computer with a 30 GB HDD!?
22:55:43 <nortti_> Vorpal: I buy my computers used
22:55:53 <tswett> Stores files using Bloom filters. You can never be sure if the file you're looking for exists or not.
22:56:13 <Vorpal> nortti_, unless it is a laptop I just buy components and assemble the computer myself
22:56:21 <Vorpal> nortti_, I really like my current desktop. 16 GB RAM
22:56:34 <Vorpal> nortti_, hey, that is more RAM than your old computer had disk space :P
22:56:46 <Vorpal> also the mobo supports 32 GB RAM. So I could upgrade if I wanted
22:56:57 <Vorpal> to get more than your current disk
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22:57:22 <nortti_> Vorpal: you have 256 times as much ram as I do
22:57:45 <Vorpal> nortti_, you have 64 MB RAM!?
22:58:16 <Vorpal> And you live in Finland according to /whois
22:58:16 <nortti_> Vorpal: yes. does that shock you?
22:58:40 <nortti_> Vorpal: what about me living in finland?
22:58:52 <Vorpal> nortti_, it is not a third world country!
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22:59:09 <Vorpal> nortti_, 64 MB RAM is as much as my first computer had (a first model iBook)
22:59:17 <Vorpal> that was about 10 years ago
22:59:30 <tswett> I feel like I should have more RAM than I do.
22:59:36 <tswett> I guess that's what money for.
22:59:42 <Vorpal> nortti_, having 64 MB RAM makes no sense. You can't do anything useful with it
22:59:48 <Vorpal> tswett, how much do you have then?
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23:00:15 <Phantom_Hoover> i would have more rams but i learnt the hard way that you can't trust elliott as far as you can throw him :(
23:00:21 <nortti_> Vorpal: my computer is 12 years old. And I can do a lot with it.
23:00:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: how far can you throw me
23:00:37 <elliott> i'm putting both nortti_ and Vorpal on ignore until they stop talking about computer specs
23:00:43 <quintopia> tswett: i think that has actually been done. use a bloom filter to avoid hitting distant memory (RAM, disk). i guess you're just suggesting throwing out the actual storage part
23:01:04 <elliott> but how will i ever get to alaska now
23:01:04 <Vorpal> btw I think the first component I will upgrade in this computer apart from replacing breaking HDDs (it is slightly less than a year old, so maybe in 2-3 years I will upgrade this) will be the GPU
23:01:06 <shachaf> nortti_: You should get a newer computer!
23:01:16 <Phantom_Hoover> i once threw like 20 pens at someone from a metre behind him
23:01:20 <elliott> shachaf: you will not avoid the ignores
23:01:36 <Vorpal> I'm just not happy with 55 FPS in Skyrim on Ultra (only at some specific places). I want a full 60 FPS!
23:01:38 <shachaf> elliott: Am I on /ignore now :=_(
23:02:18 <Vorpal> <elliott> shachaf: you will not avoid the ignores <-- what did he do?
23:02:23 <nortti_> Vorpal: I have 700MHz Pentium III
23:02:26 <Vorpal> tswett, that is enough for some workloads
23:02:44 <tswett> It is enough for literally everything I have ever done using this computer.
23:02:46 <shachaf> @msg #esoteric nortti_: In order to type-check Agda programs!
23:02:47 <Vorpal> nortti_, argh this is painful. My oldest PC is more powerful than your computer (smaller HDD though)
23:03:11 <shachaf> @msg #esoteric nortti_: In order to type-check Agda programs!
23:03:22 <nortti_> Vorpal: why is it painful?
23:03:23 <shachaf> @msg #esoteric nortti_: In order to type-check Agda programs!
23:03:25 <tswett> For example, playing Eve Online rather slowly.
23:03:40 <Vorpal> tswett, well then. I only have 16 GB because I 1) Panorama photo processing is memory intensive and also 2) want to dual boot windows, and that is because 3) I want to play high end games
23:03:54 <Vorpal> otherwise I would probably have gone for 8 GB
23:03:54 <nortti_> Vorpal: I like to hang here at the low end
23:04:08 <Vorpal> nortti_, also that isn't low end. It is below low end
23:04:19 <tswett> Who's a good manufacturer of desktop PCs?
23:04:27 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, how can you break swap?
23:04:31 <pikhq> nortti_: Low end machines use 2 watts. Yours uses at least 200.
23:04:42 <Phantom_Hoover> well basically i had torrented skyrim to vax's linux partition
23:05:00 <nortti_> pikhq: my machine is a laptop
23:05:01 * tswett Who's a good manufacturer of desktop PCs! You are! Aww, you're the cutest manufacturer of desktop PCs ever! Good manufacturer of desktop PCs! Wuv wuv wuv.
23:05:18 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh I thought it was a reference to VAX computers
23:05:38 <Phantom_Hoover> anyway elliott claimed that linux couldn't reliably write a 5GB file to ntfs so he had me repurpose the swap partition for transfer
23:05:46 <pikhq> nortti_: Coppermine?
23:06:05 <Vorpal> nortti_, the least powerful thing that you can currently buy new and is still being produced.
23:06:12 <Phantom_Hoover> it didn't work, i ended up doing a convoluted http transfer through my home wifi with henry, and i haven't gotten around to reformatting swap
23:06:24 <nortti_> Vorpal: I'd call that mid end
23:06:37 <pikhq> nortti_: Your friggin' CPU uses 25 W.
23:06:41 <Vorpal> nortti_, nah mid end is midway between that and whatever is the high end
23:06:43 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: you don't need to "reformat" swap
23:07:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, (the naming scheme is clever because henry and vax are both brands of hoover)
23:07:15 <pikhq> nortti_: You're using "older than low-end and significantly more power-hungry than low-end" stuff.
23:07:22 <pikhq> Vorpal: Pretty sure that's max load.
23:07:42 <pikhq> Vorpal: It's not before the P4 that you start seeing ridiculous power usage. :)
23:08:02 <pikhq> Where you can fry eggs by placing a frying pan on the heat sink...
23:08:04 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> you said reformat at the time I AM SURE OF IT <-- uh you need to run mkswap to write like a one block header to it
23:08:12 <Vorpal> if you overwrote it that is
23:08:40 <pikhq> P4s go up to... 115W. Shiiit.
23:08:41 <Vorpal> I MUCH prefer it being a reference to VAX computers
23:08:45 <Phantom_Hoover> (i realised you probably wouldn't get it being an inferior swede and all)
23:09:10 <nortti_> Vorpal: I think that nothing currently produced cam be called low end
23:09:11 <Vorpal> pikhq, what does a modern top-end, state of the art Core i7 go up to?
23:09:19 <Phantom_Hoover> when i was looking through brands of hoover for a name i found it and was like omg
23:09:53 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well, I have a Mile vacuum cleaner here
23:10:09 <pikhq> Vorpal: The *6 core* i7 does 130W.
23:10:25 <Phantom_Hoover> good to know, if i ever have a computer in sweden and/or germany i will call it that
23:10:41 <Vorpal> pikhq, I wonder what consumes most in my desktop. I guess it is either the GPU or the HDDs spinning up actually?
23:10:52 <Vorpal> I have a 4 core Sandy Bridge i7
23:10:55 <Vorpal> let me check which one
23:10:59 <pikhq> Oh, sorry, I lied, that was the last gen 6 core i7...
23:11:12 <pikhq> Oh, it's still 130 W on the current gen.
23:11:23 <pikhq> The more typical ones use rather a lot less.
23:11:33 <nortti_> Vorpal: I have my comfortable lowest machine requirement somewhere between 100MHz Pentium I/40MB RAM and 50MHz 486/16MB RAM
23:11:37 <Phantom_Hoover> I still have no idea if the restarts from DX:HR are an overheat or power problem or what because apparently making a temperature monitor is the most complicated thing in the world.
23:11:40 <Vorpal> wow, great job windows... the System tab in Control Panel broke. Somehow. It lists everything as NaN
23:11:42 <pikhq> On the low end they use 17 W max.
23:11:51 <Vorpal> well, every number that is
23:12:19 <Vorpal> pikhq, mine is 3.4 GHz
23:12:36 <Vorpal> can't check which product name though since windows is spacing out here
23:12:38 <tswett> Lessee. It looks like the best computer HP can give me would cost $3,383.99.
23:12:57 <tswett> Has three hard drives and two Blu-Ray writers.
23:13:02 <Vorpal> tswett, protip: it is probably cheaper to built your own equivalent system
23:13:09 <Vorpal> also who would need two blu-ray writers!?
23:13:18 <tswett> Because who knows when you might want to burn two BDs at once.
23:14:09 <Vorpal> tswett, just converted it to SEK. It is between 2 and 3 times as expensive as my system
23:14:09 <tswett> I could buy this. But my parents would disown me.
23:14:15 <Vorpal> (well, when it was new)
23:14:34 <Vorpal> btw I only have a DVD drive
23:14:43 <Vorpal> don't really see the need for a blu-ray drive
23:14:54 <Vorpal> my laptop has a crazy drive though. It can do DVD-RAM
23:14:54 <nortti_> I have single DVD-R, CD-RW drive
23:15:10 <Phantom_Hoover> they do seem a bit pointless given the existence of torrents
23:15:15 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, indeed
23:15:18 <tswett> Wait, I actually *can* buy this.
23:15:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, google it. It is a packet writing based media iirc
23:15:54 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so you can write specific sectors
23:16:14 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, basically it is formatted into sectors iirc, but don't quote me on that
23:16:33 <Phantom_Hoover> "Can be rewritten over 100,000 times for the lowest write speed discs (DVDRW can be rewritten approx. 1,000 times)."
23:16:51 <elliott> tswett: Don't buy a premade computer, man.
23:16:56 <elliott> Especially a really expensive one.
23:17:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal will look down on you for one and he's well without facepunching range
23:17:34 <tswett> I will instantly regret any computer purchase I make.
23:18:04 <Vorpal> it is pretty much wasted money
23:18:28 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, anyway rest assured I didn't select the laptop based on the DVD-RAM support
23:18:36 <Vorpal> I discovered that support much later
23:19:20 <Vorpal> and it is not so strange really, it is a thinkpad. And it supports one PC Card + one ExpressCard as well. Oh and Firewire. Yeah it has some rather uncommon stuff
23:19:22 <nortti_> well I don't regret my computer purchases. They are rarely over 15 euros
23:19:52 <tswett> I haven't bought a computer more expensive than 15 euros in about three years.
23:20:25 <nortti_> the tracpoint mouse is awesome
23:20:30 <Vorpal> I tend to buy really good computers when I do buy computers. And then use them until they break or are no longer usable for my purposes
23:20:51 <Vorpal> so I will probably upgrade my desktop in about 5 years time. No idea for my laptop. I don't do such heavy stuff on it
23:21:03 <Vorpal> nortti_, indeed. Also matte screens FTW
23:21:23 <Vorpal> anyway I wouldn't buy a laptop without a trackpoint. Touchpads are terrible
23:21:47 <Phantom_Hoover> ok so less than two weeks before cambridge's "you want to study maths with us? haha fuck you" test i am still unable to reliably integrate ln(ax+b)
23:22:05 <nortti_> Vorpal: also how rugged they are
23:22:22 <Vorpal> nortti_, not much (for the newer lenovo made ones at least)
23:22:27 <Vorpal> (never owned an IBM one)
23:22:53 <Vorpal> If I wanted rugged I'd go for Toughbook
23:23:29 <nortti_> Vorpal: my T20 was uder one of the feet of cr
23:23:34 <Phantom_Hoover> i'd get a raspberry pi and put it in 13 different boxes
23:23:55 <kmc> Vorpal: do you actually have any evidence that they got less durable when Lenovo took over?
23:24:02 <Vorpal> nortti_, chain? chair?
23:24:10 <Vorpal> nortti_, also why would you put it there?
23:24:16 <kmc> i hear this a lot but it usually sounds like nerd hipsters whining about how the early albums were better
23:24:36 <kmc> i'm not happy with some of lenovo's design decisions, but i don't know if the quality has suffered
23:24:37 <Vorpal> kmc, yes. I had to order a replacement part for the palm rest. And the second one got a crack in the same place
23:24:45 <nortti_> Vorpal: previous owner. thought it was completely broken
23:24:46 <Vorpal> not so much that I need to order a new one yet
23:24:46 <kmc> nice anecdotes
23:24:53 <kmc> but did you ever own an IBM thinkpad?
23:24:53 <Vorpal> kmc, well it is my personal experience
23:24:56 <kmc> wait, you said there you didn't
23:24:58 <kmc> so you have no comparison
23:25:05 <Vorpal> I don't have any statistics on it
23:25:34 <Vorpal> kmc, and I know people with IBM thinkpads. And I used them (though never owned them) and they feel more durable. And I never seen them break like that
23:25:53 <kmc> that's all pretty dodgy
23:26:01 <kmc> they "feel more durale" and you've never seen them break, but you don't own them?
23:26:08 <kmc> and obviously you wouldn't see the broken ones
23:26:12 <Vorpal> kmc, It lacks scientific rigour definitely
23:26:34 <Vorpal> kmc, I had one on loan for a few years
23:26:51 <Vorpal> is that enough for you?
23:26:57 <kmc> i dunno, i have this basic contrarian impulse where, if a majority of my peer group believes something, i try to argue against it
23:27:07 <kmc> Vorpal: not really, but I don't think anything would be, so whatever
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23:27:35 <Vorpal> kmc, well it is just annoying. I never claimed I tested for statistical significant results and so on. So don't argue like if I did that
23:27:37 <kmc> i can cite one specific thing lenovo made better though
23:27:59 <kmc> which is that the plug on the end of the power cords has more strain relief now
23:28:04 <kmc> and is less liable to break
23:28:13 <kmc> the old IBM-designed and the first lenovo-designed ones broke all the time
23:28:47 <Vorpal> kmc, oh yeah forgot that. My power cord for this lenovo one (R500, not sure if it is new or old, it lacks the IBM logo though) broke. Near the power supply end
23:28:50 <kmc> i owned an IBM-designed ThinkPad and it had its share of problems
23:28:53 <Vorpal> rather than at the computer end
23:28:54 <kmc> enough anecdotes to match yours
23:29:03 <kmc> laptops break
23:29:06 <kmc> thinkpads aren't magic
23:29:08 <kmc> they are pretty good
23:29:19 <Vorpal> they are better than average though
23:29:27 <kmc> i hope that continues to be the case
23:29:39 <kmc> i'm upset about lenovo throwing out the thinkpad keyboard layout
23:29:42 <Vorpal> kmc, but thoughbooks are better still if you are really handling it rough
23:29:50 <kmc> but they're huge and unwieldy
23:29:58 <Vorpal> kmc, though I know someone who managed to drop a toughbook so that the HDD popped out and broke
23:30:26 <Vorpal> to be fair he works as an ambulance driver and used it in his work. So that is some really tough environment.
23:31:32 <kmc> if lenovo goes to glossy screens only, that's the point at which I will really have to switch
23:31:40 <kmc> i used a glossy screen thinkpad for a few months and really disliked it
23:31:48 <Vorpal> kmc, but what is there to switch to!?
23:31:56 <Vorpal> I have no idea what is left
23:32:56 <elliott> <itidus21> i dunno, i have this basic contrarian impulse where, if a majority of my peer group believes something, i try to argue against it
23:33:27 <Vorpal> kmc, this laptop monitor is 8:5 btw. Nicer than 16:9 at least
23:33:50 <kmc> Vorpal: apple :(
23:33:58 <kmc> but i really hate the company
23:34:13 <kmc> i hate the company but their laptops at least seem to be well made
23:34:15 <Vorpal> <elliott> <itidus21> i dunno, i have this basic contrarian impulse where, if a majority of my peer group believes something, i try to argue against it <-- err wasn't it kmc who said that?
23:34:36 <Vorpal> kmc, oh yeah apple has some terrible lock in going on
23:35:59 <nortti_> I hate apple's iOS devices and poat 2006 macs but I love old macs
23:36:25 <Vorpal> nortti_, I'm going to get a new phone soon. A Samsung Galaxy S3
23:36:37 <Vorpal> the blue variant been delayed though
23:36:42 <Vorpal> otherwise I would have had it already
23:36:51 <Vorpal> (some production issues from what I heard)
23:37:09 <Vorpal> (and I don't want a white phone)
23:37:15 <Vorpal> my current phone isn't even a smartphone
23:37:28 <Vorpal> just a really old Nokia with bits of plastic starting to fall off
23:37:38 <zzo38> What is the best way to do constrast/brightness/gamma by integer arithmetic?
23:37:53 <nortti_> I am going to also get new phone. an old nokia nonsmartphone
23:37:56 <Vorpal> zzo38, for what? Image manipulation?
23:37:59 <elliott> 00:34 <Vorpal> <elliott> <itidus21> i dunno, i have this basic contrarian impulse where, if a majority of my peer group believes something, i try to argue against it <-- err wasn't it kmc who said that?
23:38:28 <Vorpal> nortti_, at least my current phone can run J2ME and has a simple camera built in. Pretty shitty quality though
23:38:39 <Vorpal> should upload an image I took recently. Was pretty funny
23:38:44 <zzo38> Although why should it matter if it is for image manipulation? The same thing should work for audio as well
23:39:28 <Vorpal> zzo38, what does gamma mean for audio?
23:39:30 <nortti_> Vorpal: why not? I find camera+GPRS+J2ME to be all I nees
23:39:59 <Vorpal> nortti_, fair enough. Those phones are certainly smaller and have better battery life
23:40:20 <Vorpal> personally I really need a better phone since I started doing android development
23:40:22 <zzo38> Vorpal: The same thing as with pictures; gamma is the value to the power of some number, etc
23:40:30 <Vorpal> would be nice to be able to test it at home
23:40:55 <Vorpal> zzo38, I guess you could do fixed point calculations?
23:41:01 <zzo38> However with signed audio you would need to also decide what it will do with the sign
23:41:14 <zzo38> (in case of gamma)
23:41:17 <Vorpal> zzo38, but why not use floats?
23:41:37 <Vorpal> zzo38, shouldn't gamma just scale the magnitude?
23:42:29 <zzo38> Vorpal: I want to use integer arithmetic to avoid it being difference by different computers like how TeX also use integer arithmetic for same purpose
23:43:05 <oerjan> <elliott> hey oerjan <-- wat
23:43:11 <elliott> 00:37 <elliott> 00:34 <Vorpal> <elliott> <itidus21> i dunno, i have this basic contrarian impulse where, if a majority of my peer group believes something, i try to argue against it <-- err wasn't it kmc who said that?
23:43:23 <elliott> you know that word that starts with a wo
23:44:20 <elliott> oerjan: you need to say that word to Vorpal, you see
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23:46:41 <oerjan> i cannot woosh someone when i'm not sure i guess the meaning correctly myself
23:48:57 <elliott> oerjan: kmc said that earlier.
23:49:01 <elliott> then i quoted it but i replaced kmc with itidus21.
23:49:16 <Vorpal> elliott, right, that makes sense
23:49:48 <zzo38> I only need a table that the value 0 to 255 is mapped to a new value 0 to 255
23:50:08 <oerjan> well i guessed _that_ much. what i'm not sure of is why it is funny.
23:50:33 <Vorpal> oerjan, I see the logic of it now, I don't think it is very funny though
23:50:58 <zzo38> oerjan: It has to calculate during the program because any input could be specified
23:51:27 <oerjan> zzo38: no i mean, just build the whole table of 0 to 255, and include it in the program
23:51:49 <Vorpal> zzo38, why not just do the calculation each step? Is it really that expensive?
23:52:16 <oerjan> Vorpal: he wants it to be more portable than floating point is
23:52:24 <Vorpal> oerjan, so fixed point
23:52:40 <oerjan> i'm not sure that is portable...
23:52:42 <Vorpal> also unless he is targeting embedded system there is zero reason to avoid floating point in this case
23:52:50 <zzo38> oerjan: I know that but it won't work since the input will be the amount of gamma correction or whatever else it is, and this requires to calculate the table for the given amount of gamma
23:53:09 <Vorpal> oerjan, uh? How can bitshifts and integer arithmetic NOT be portable?
23:53:19 <Vorpal> because that is all you need for fixed point
23:53:35 <oerjan> zzo38: oh ok. i misunderstood.
23:53:41 <zzo38> I don't want the program to run differently on different computers
23:53:50 <Vorpal> zzo38, so redo the table when the user change the input values?
23:54:11 <oerjan> Vorpal: yes, but he needs an algorithm for a power routine iiuc
23:54:28 <oerjan> and not just integer powers
23:54:30 <Vorpal> zzo38, are you going to run this on a system that lacks floating point?
23:55:21 <oerjan> Vorpal: portable here means "gives the exact same result regardless of the system's floating point rep"
23:55:49 <Vorpal> oerjan, any self respecting system uses IEEE floating point these days
23:56:23 <zzo38> Vorpal: No. In fact it uses floating point to compress PNG (since it is based on LodePNG), but the rest of the program doesn't make decisions based on that and once decompressed it is the same anyways since it is lossless
23:56:44 <Vorpal> oerjan, you will get the same results on ARM, x86 and x86-64, and really those are the only platforms that matter these days unless you are specifically targeting a specific embedded controller
23:56:48 <zzo38> While with the gamma tables, it is possible for the program to make decisions since the table is exposed
23:56:54 <Vorpal> that is the reality of software development
23:57:36 <Vorpal> if the floating point was broken the compression would not work correctly surely?
23:57:39 <nortti_> Vorpal: don't ppc and mips matter?
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23:58:16 <Vorpal> nortti_, these days? not really for mainstream development. And PPC is dead. You might be referring to the Power architecture, which is what replaced PPC
23:58:20 <shachaf> kmc: Wouldn't it be nice if, like, instead of having types, Haskell *only* had typeclasses? And their instances would be *other typeclasses*.
23:58:23 <Vorpal> and that is used in some places yes
23:58:26 <zzo38> Vorpal: The compression is lossless; if the floating point was partially broken you would probably still get a valid PNG file with the correct picture but it would not be optimal compression, I suppose
23:58:41 <Vorpal> nortti_, and in some high end clusters
23:59:10 <Vorpal> nortti_, but mainstream: not really. MIPS might matter slightly more, but it is far less popular than ARM
23:59:17 <nortti_> Vorpal: powerpc is dead? freescale still manufactures ppc processors
23:59:26 <Vorpal> nortti_, really? Who uses them?
23:59:42 <Vorpal> nortti_, I know the ISA is used in the Power core of the Cell CPU (as used in PS3)
23:59:42 <zzo38> This program in TeXnicard it is not only for personal microcomputers, it is for companies who print cards as well (although they won't necessarily use it, it is intended to be available for them)
00:00:29 <Vorpal> zzo38, what sort of systems do you think those companies use? Probably x86-based
00:00:42 <zzo38> Vorpal: I suppose so
00:01:47 <Vorpal> zzo38, most likely any company printing large volumes are going to send it to a printing house as a PDF btw.
00:02:54 <zzo38> But what if you want PNG?
00:02:56 <Vorpal> nortti_, anyway, all the platforms (apart from MIPS possibly, I don't know enough about the details for it) listed uses IEEE floating point
00:03:10 <Vorpal> you embed it in the PDF?
00:03:25 <zzo38> Can PNG be embedded directly to PDF?
00:03:27 <nortti_> Vorpal: what systems don't?
00:03:56 <Vorpal> zzo38, pretty sure that EPS, PNG, JPEG and JPEG2000 are the formats that can be embedded in PDFs
00:04:11 <nortti_> apart from microcontrollers
00:04:32 <Vorpal> what systems don't what?
00:04:41 <kmc> plenty of systems have no hardware floating point
00:04:46 <kmc> software fpu is probably ieee though
00:04:59 <nortti_> Vorpal: what systems don't use IEEE fp
00:05:02 <Vorpal> kmc, indeed. So you end up with IEEE in any case. Which was my point
00:05:10 <Vorpal> nortti_, no common modern ones
00:05:10 <kmc> ppc is not dead... 2 of the 3 major game consoles use PPC architecture
00:05:36 <kmc> fair enough then
00:05:37 <Vorpal> which is the same ISA yes
00:05:42 <shachaf> kmc: tty1 is running NetHack, tty2 is runnin Crawl, tty3 is running robotfindskitten
00:05:46 <Vorpal> kmc, don't remember what xbox or Wii uses
00:05:55 <Vorpal> kmc, xbox might actually use PPC?
00:06:09 <kmc> oh, I forgot that the Wii also does :)
00:06:14 <kmc> never mind, 3 :)
00:06:39 <zzo38> Vorpal: I suppose, you should know the printing resolution as well? Since, TeXnicard produces PNG outputs at the printer's resolution. So hopefully PDF support such things if it is required to use PDF, but it would be better to just send the PNG directly if it is the correct resolution already
00:06:56 <Vorpal> kmc, so 2 of them uses PPC, and one uses Power, which is the same ISA pretty much (except that it is Cell, which means that it is just one out of the many cores that has that ISA)
00:07:26 <Vorpal> zzo38, mhm. Seems silly to not produce vector graphics if you can though
00:07:39 <kmc> shachaf: this is what #haskell actually believes?
00:07:53 <nortti_> ppc is kinda nice ISA. Good thingvppc macs are cheap
00:07:56 <shachaf> kmc: 17:02 <mekeor> shachaf: maybe like this?? class StringLike s where f :: CharLike c => s -> (c,s)
00:08:14 <zzo38> Vorpal: No, it is using all raster fonts, raster graphics, etc
00:08:24 <kmc> also lol @ telling zzo38 to get a grip on reality
00:08:40 <Vorpal> kmc, you have a point there
00:08:50 <zzo38> Vorpal: They are better if you know the printer's resolution
00:09:26 <Vorpal> kmc, I think I have been pragmatized (does that word exist?) over the last few months. Seen what commercial software development looks like.
00:09:59 <Vorpal> zzo38, why? I don't see why they wouldn't be equally good if both produce the same end result
00:10:01 <zzo38> It uses TFM/GF for fonts, and PBM and PNG for graphics.
00:10:07 <nortti_> Vorpal: should I also start assuming I can use more than 64kB code+64kB data?
00:10:09 <kmc> Vorpal: did you start a new job?
00:10:15 <Vorpal> which they would in situations where vector graphics are good enough
00:10:47 <zzo38> Vorpal: No it won't; raster is better quality *if you know the resolution of the printer*.
00:11:14 <Vorpal> kmc, I did my bachelor thesis with a software development company. Pretty common here in Sweden. Been doing indoor positioning using WLAN.
00:11:41 <Vorpal> shachaf, no. I'm on Mars.
00:11:48 <shachaf> Vorpal: Where in Sweden are you?
00:12:15 <shachaf> You should get kmc to visit you!
00:12:30 <zzo38> MSE is not only using vector but also JPEG, which results in poor quality output especially also since the printer resolution is not set correctly either.
00:12:50 <zzo38> And JPEG isn't even a vector format so it has to use raster as well
00:12:59 <Vorpal> shachaf, anyway geoip for kmc claims US
00:13:09 <shachaf> kmc: You should get a cloak!
00:13:10 <Vorpal> shachaf, anyway why would I live in Stockholm. I hate big cities
00:13:19 <shachaf> You can get them from that one person in that one channel.
00:13:50 <shachaf> Vorpal: kmc is visiting .fi sometime.
00:13:50 <Vorpal> shachaf, anyway why are you interested in where in Sweden I am?
00:14:39 <Vorpal> shachaf, I may tell you if you give me the reason why you want to know
00:14:50 <shachaf> I have no reason for wanting to know.
00:15:09 <shachaf> I've been in Sweden for two non-consecutive days of my life.
00:15:16 <Vorpal> oh well, that is fair enough. About 30 Swedish miles from Stockholm (a Swedish mile is 10 km)
00:15:38 <zzo38> MSE is intended for printing worst quality than official cards. TeXnicard is intended for printing better quality than official cards.
00:15:49 <Vorpal> shachaf, so quite far away
00:16:06 <shachaf> Vorpal: I just said I have no reason for wanting to know! Why are you telling me?
00:16:17 <Vorpal> I think that is what you mean?
00:16:27 <Vorpal> shachaf, because you answered my question
00:16:31 <Vorpal> shachaf, that was a valid answer
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00:32:36 <zzo38> I would like to have the Magic: the Gathering symbols in METAFONT
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00:34:50 <zzo38> kmc: You shoult not get a cloak. You should get a clock!
00:36:44 <Gregor> SORRY CANNOT HALP FROM CHINA
00:37:20 <elliott> quintopia: i was going to rewrite report.c
00:37:42 <kmc> trapped in fortune cookie factory
00:38:36 <quintopia> Gregor: can't even tell me what the hell kind of method is being used to store the scores? it is a signed char *, and the part where it gets read into looks like
00:38:45 <quintopia> SF(tmpi, read, -1, (scorepipe[0], &st, sizeof(int)));
00:38:50 <Gregor> quintopia: You think I REMEMBER???
00:39:05 <Gregor> I would assume one char per score, in some kind of logical order.
00:39:21 <elliott> quintopia: I was going to rewrite it in Haskell.
00:39:23 <Gregor> Errr, looks like one INT per score there.
00:39:40 <Gregor> quintopia: Because it's never going to be less than -128 or greater than 127?
00:40:03 <quintopia> elliott: is it easy to do linear algebra in haskell?
00:40:22 <elliott> i think i found a linpack binding
00:42:00 <quintopia> i figured out how to do my scoring with just one dgesv
00:43:02 <quintopia> so, if you rewrite report i can put it in fairly easil
00:43:25 <quintopia> i can go ahead and give you the gearlance i modified to report both program scores which i need to compute my scoring
00:49:13 <Vorpal> huh, I was doing some changes to installed components of windows on this windows 7 system. Strangely enough it didn't want the DVD to add minesweeper. And no it is not an OEM install with everything on the disk. This is installed from a stock DVD with windows 7 on it
00:49:27 <quintopia> elliott: are you serious about rewriting report
00:49:51 <quintopia> elliott: as in you could get it done over the weekend or w/e?
00:49:55 <oerjan> geeks will be geeks: "The IceCube collaboration is now discussing the possible addition of a second infill, called PINGU (Phased IceCube Next Generation Upgrade), which would group an additional series of strings in DeepCore and allow IceCube to detect oscillations as low as a few GeV."
00:50:01 <elliott> this was when i was doing lance
00:50:09 <elliott> maybe i will have a god at it
00:50:19 <elliott> but i can't promise anything :P
00:51:04 <quintopia> elliott: should i attempt to hack report.c now or wait to give you a chance to have a go at it
00:51:28 <elliott> feel free to hack at report.c, if you want to
00:51:34 <elliott> I don't want to hold you up
00:51:44 <elliott> I'm usually not very good at doing things
00:51:56 <oerjan> breaking everything is the next logical step
00:53:21 <quintopia> elliott: if i hack report.c and get it running my scoring, would you be able to use that code to add my scoring to your version if you ever decided to do it?
00:53:33 <elliott> quintopia: depends how horrible linpack's c api is :P
00:53:40 <elliott> but yes probably. i might have to ask you about some things
00:54:31 <quintopia> it will probably be nearly as straightforward as report.c already is (read: stupidly ugly)
00:54:54 <quintopia> http://theochem.mercer.edu/clapack/dgesv_example.c if this makes sense to you, then my portion of the code should be no problem
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01:08:47 <Vorpal> elliott, iirc linpack uses the opposite row/column order of multidimensional array compared to the normal C way
01:09:08 <Vorpal> elliott, it is because fortran does it that way
01:09:17 <Lumpio-> ...what's the "normal C way"
01:11:02 <Vorpal> Lumpio-, well the point is fortran and C interprets foo[2][3] (and the fortran equiv) the opposite ways in how they are laid out in memory
01:11:39 <Vorpal> of course you could consider either way of laying out the data in that array
01:11:48 <Vorpal> it is up to the programmer
01:33:34 <elliott> can write code that a c++ compiler will accept
01:34:25 <oerjan> sorry, all c++ programs stopped compiling after the venus transit
01:34:48 <oerjan> this is probably for the best
01:36:34 <Vorpal> elliott, oerjan: btw I might end up writing embedded C++ code for a living. How does that sound?
01:36:47 <kmc> i know some c++ yeah
01:36:49 <kmc> why elliott
01:36:56 <elliott> kmc: if i have an std::vector member in a class
01:37:00 <elliott> and it has its own constructor
01:37:04 <elliott> do i have to initialise it in the constructor
01:37:08 <elliott> or will it just be empty all by itself
01:37:26 <Vorpal> elliott, running on RTOS btw
01:37:49 <Vorpal> (which is actually the name of a specific RTOS!)
01:38:07 <kmc> elliott: if you do nothing, the ctor for your class will invoke the default ctor for the memer object
01:38:26 <elliott> even if it has its own ctor? ok
01:38:27 <kmc> if you want to invoke a different constructor, you would put it in your ctor's initializer list
01:38:41 <elliott> Vorpal: im going to get past vorpal to kill you for writing proprietry softwawerjio
01:38:42 <kmc> if there's no entry for foo in the initializer list, it's like foo()
01:38:53 <elliott> i'm not sure this class even uses initialiser lists
01:38:58 <Vorpal> elliott, well I would have to do something for a living
01:39:31 <kmc> C++ does take some care to make sure values of object type (as opposed to pointer or reference type) are actually valid objects
01:39:39 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway it is not like this is going to be useful for most people if I get the job. It is for mining rigs.
01:41:06 <elliott> ugh this codebase uses int so casually
01:41:30 <Vorpal> elliott, in place of long or what?
01:41:56 <elliott> in place of something with a defined size, since it's a cross-platform game and this stuff goes into save files and is actually game-relevant and so on
01:41:59 <elliott> ok depending on your definition of relevant
01:42:14 <elliott> if you complete 2 billion or so ziggurats then bad things will happen
01:44:05 <Vorpal> is that read as zuggu-rat?
01:44:21 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ziggurat
01:44:32 <elliott> it's a portal; you pay a bunch of money and then go through 27 levels of very difficult monsters in a confined spcae)
01:44:34 <Vorpal> what a strange word in English
01:45:03 <elliott> argh why does this editor keep resetting to hard tabs on every file
01:45:24 <Vorpal> I first went like "hey, isn't crawl light a free game?" at that "you pay a bunch of money" before I realised it was in game money
01:45:50 <Vorpal> I would definitely pay in real life to go through a portal though!
01:46:08 <Vorpal> (assuming it teleported me)
01:46:12 <elliott> not to a ziggurat, you wouldn't
01:47:56 <elliott> i could see an mmorpg charging to enter something like that
01:48:25 <Vorpal> you could see the game itself charging to enter it?
01:49:26 <Vorpal> you could see an mmorpg game charge in in order for it to a portal?
01:49:33 <Sgeo_> I wonder if it would ever offend an employer if I mentioned The Daily WTF
01:49:37 <Sgeo_> As in, due to the language
01:50:06 <Vorpal> elliott, I read it as if the game itself charged (ran) into a portal
01:50:23 <Vorpal> that was why I was somewhat confused
01:51:06 <Vorpal> I'm tyre you are glue. Wait what.
01:51:33 <Vorpal> (I /do/ hope you get that reference)
01:52:33 <zzo38> Do you like the computer game called "Potion of Confusing" in MegaZeux?
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01:54:04 <elliott> + if (runes.size() < NUMBER_OF_RUNES_NEEDED)
01:54:08 <elliott> why would you use this and not runes_in_pack
02:05:32 <zzo38> Go into the various doors to find the nice purple keys. You can open the door toward the west if you have enough keys. Hold second one as you hold a pencil. There are some gibbering mouther to the west locked up in the room behind the door. It is good idea if you can save them, please. Also, some of them like the potion of confusing as well, so it would be nice if you can give that to them too.
02:06:22 <zzo38> They also like to speak in confusing way and to eat your blood a bit too so you should learn that too, please. If you have any more potion of confusing remains, then you should quaff a potion of confusing too if you like to do so. Good luck, and goodbye!
02:07:36 <zzo38> You can save at any time, and can create multiple save files; it might be good idea to do so. However, you can always abandon the level you are on, and try it again later (it will restart if you have not completed it). Every time you exit a level (whether you win or lose), your stats are reset, so you cannot use ammunition or anything like that from one level in another one.
02:07:48 <zzo38> Also, this game is public domain, so you are free to do as you wish, please.
02:08:10 <zzo38> Keyboard: I = identify player R = reset S = sound test Z = clear message row
02:17:54 <oerjan> elliott: sorry, it's yo today
02:19:05 <zzo38> Do you like this description of this game?
02:19:36 <zzo38> oerjan: I don't recognize that color
02:21:08 <oerjan> that could be because it isn't one
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02:24:21 <HackEgo> MerlynKorr: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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02:30:45 <elliott> does anyone know how you can git blame some removed lines
02:30:51 <elliott> I want to find out which commit removed a function
02:33:20 <elliott> nobody actually removed it
02:35:47 <oerjan> it never was there in the first place?
02:48:20 <elliott> shachaf: How can I selectively revert hunks in my current changes?
02:48:28 <elliott> Like "git commit -p", but instead it undoes them.
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02:55:46 <pikhq_> My Internet is worse than I thought.
02:56:01 <pikhq_> Seriously, you have to *work* to do that.
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03:04:49 <shachaf> Maybe something involving git-rebase?
03:05:07 <shachaf> There's a SPLITTING COMMITS section in git-rebase(1).
03:05:51 <elliott> But they aren't committed yet.
03:08:02 <shachaf> Except you're talking about adding, not committing.
03:08:08 <shachaf> Anyway, git-add --interactive?
03:09:04 <shachaf> I'm just, like, lookin' at man pages here, man.
03:09:40 <shachaf> But it looks like git-add --interactive's [r]evert will do what you want.
03:15:31 <kmc> pikhq_: i've found many connections where Mosh works, whereas IRC/ssh can't achieve a connection
03:15:49 <kmc> i think the amount of packet loss you need to make TCP completely unusable is < 100%
03:16:55 <shachaf> The Worst Internet Argument.
03:19:16 <kmc> you know who else believed 0.99999… = 1?
03:20:38 <pikhq_> kmc: Actually, it's weird: for a second or two I get 100% packet drop, and then my TCP connections are dropped.
03:20:53 <pikhq_> While UDP keeps going.
03:22:34 <shachaf> kmc: Is this a "make other people self-Godwin" trick?
03:25:02 <kmc> pikhq_: ohh
03:25:10 <kmc> i don't have the TCP flow control rules memorized
03:25:17 <kmc> but it should take more than a few seconds to drop a TCP connection
03:30:26 <shachaf> elliott: Is there even a 'b' at the end of that "herb"?
03:30:44 <pikhq_> kmc: I'm suspecting it's broken equipment somewhere on my link.
03:30:55 <pikhq_> kmc: It should take *quite a while* for TCP to drop.
03:31:09 <pikhq_> But it takes a mere fit of stupid in a NAT to drop TCP.
03:36:32 <kmc> did you look at the packets
03:37:20 <shachaf> kmc: I wish strace could do that. :-(
03:37:42 <shachaf> Maybe if you straced User-Mode Linux.
03:40:40 <oerjan> the packets, they do nothing!
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03:43:12 <oerjan> hey urbandictionary, who are you calling sub-human
03:46:11 <oerjan> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=The%20goggles!%20They%20do%20nothing!
03:46:36 <elliott> Attractive Girl: "You're so right, I'll have sex with YOU now instead of that loser."
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04:05:19 <zzo38> With my ideas relating to typeclasses in Ibtlfmm, and local instances, then implicit parameters are the same thing and therefore do not need an extension like GHC's -XImplicitParams. You can simply do: sort :: a. (method cmp :: a -> a -> Bool) => [a] -> [a] So an implicit parameter is the same as a class method.
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04:32:04 <elliott> shachaf: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10956419/why-isnt-every-type-part-of-eq-in-haskell
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06:09:58 <zzo38> I agree with Hawking's "Reality is not a quality you can test with litmus paper."
06:11:35 <zzo38> But I agree with some of Penrose's ideas as well.
06:11:56 <zzo38> But mostly I agree my own ideas instead, based on the mathematics and on what else I read and try to think about for myself
06:16:51 <zzo38> In my opinion the proper theory must not only involve quantum mechanics but also general relativity, and that spacetime must be considered together rather than separated and relative rather than absolute.
06:17:44 <zzo38> I consider my own interpretation: causality-breaking physics.
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06:18:16 <zzo38> Also, the true reality is that of mathematics.
06:18:48 <zzo38> But there are cases in mathematics where more than one answer is possible; for example, a square root of 9 can be positive 3 or negative 3.
06:18:58 <zzo38> So too it may be with the universe.
06:20:26 <zzo38> If the mathematics says one thing that people say is extremely crazy and impossible, but it is mathematically correct, then even if you don't believe it, I must believe it unless the experiment refutes it.
06:20:59 <zzo38> What kind of quantum interpretation did you like?????
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06:21:37 <zzo38> What kind of quantum interpretation did you like?????
06:22:22 <zzo38> Taneb: I have uploaded the version of prelude-generalize tell me if you have a documentation I will add it on, if you want to reorder the exports that is OK too
06:22:34 <Taneb> Yeah, I'm working on that
06:22:50 <zzo38> Taneb: Read the log what I wrote what my opinion is of quantum interpretation see if you agree/disagree/partial/neutral.
06:24:09 <Taneb> It seems... compatible with most interpretations of quantum physics
06:26:13 <Taneb> Not really knowing much about quantum mechanics, general relativity, or physics in general
06:27:08 <quintopia> zzo38: do you prefer quantum decoherence or collapse postulate?
06:28:42 <zzo38> Just see what fits better with experiments, if any.
06:30:33 <Taneb> quintopia, can you explain them to me?
06:30:45 <zzo38> I do not know what "collapse postulate" means, although I know some things about wave function collapse.
06:31:00 <zzo38> The Wikipedia article for "collapse postulate" redirects to "wave function collapse".
06:31:41 <zzo38> quintopia: Well, it isn't something I have thought of much, although maybe I should
06:33:50 <zzo38> I would think wave function collapse is simply the way to find the subset of the wave function which is considered to be measured.
06:33:57 <quintopia> Taneb: macroscopic decoherence is many-worlds. it just says that the wavefunction never really collapses into a particular subset of decohered states. advantages are: it doesn't involve collapse (acausal, undifferentiable, nonlocal, unexplainable phenomenon that it is) disadvantages are: Born probabilities
06:35:20 <quintopia> Taneb: collapse is the old-fashioned one. it says that the universe abandons a set of decoherent possible states at the point where they become "too large"...instantly and exactly as the Born probabilities would dictate (though it doesnt say why)
06:35:54 <zzo38> So in other words, I am saying that wavefunction collapse is an emergent phenomenon.
06:36:05 <Taneb> What're Born probabilities?
06:37:27 <quintopia> zzo38: by "emergent" do you mean "magical"?
06:38:22 <quintopia> Taneb: the probability that a particular decohered amplitude distribution is the one in which we will find ourselves is equal to the square of the amplitude it contains
06:39:30 <zzo38> quintopia: No, I mean emergent from the way the fundamental mathematics would be applied.
06:40:21 <quintopia> zzo38: these days "emergent" is tossed around to mean "it just kinda happens when other stuff happens, but i'm not going to speculate on the details"
06:40:40 <quintopia> aka, it is used in the place of an explanation rather than as a part of one
06:42:11 <zzo38> There may be causality loops, and causality breaking, as I have written above. So causality breaking might place restrictions on the mathematics, and well as observation, so what you observe (including consciousness and so on, although this too is emergent) will be what agrees with the observer's state.
06:42:46 <zzo38> Division by zero is not allowed, and this already makes some things emerge in physics, so it can do other things too.
06:43:39 <quintopia> "what you observe will be what agrees with your state" sounds an awful lot like a belief in macroscopic decoherence, while "there may be causality breaking" sounds like a belief in collapse
06:43:50 <quintopia> i think you are confused and should read more on the subject
06:44:45 <zzo38> Yes perhaps I am a bit confused. I have read some books and some Wikipedia too, and I try to work the mathematics on paper and on computer too.
06:49:09 <zzo38> Also my opinion, quantum states which are not part of the current point of view may be entangled with ones that are, for possible entanglement across multiverse. Note that I mean the multiverse that is related; not the Ultimate Multiverse.
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06:54:31 <Taneb> zzo38, I'd be careful or Marvel may sue you.
06:56:25 <zzo38> By Ultimate Multiverse I mean what Brian Greene wrote about where everything that is mathematically correct is mathematically exist as some kind of universe.
06:57:05 <zzo38> (Sometimes it is restricted to computable mathematical formulae, but I disagree with this; it should be everything whether computable or not.)
07:00:14 <zzo38> "Reality" cannot possibly be more than what you define it to be; otherwise it is nothing.
07:01:19 <zzo38> You cannot call something an objective reality in these kind of physics; you just say the mathematics is this and that and so on, and the experiment will be like this and that and so on.
07:02:19 <zzo38> Ambiguity should be OK, as long as it is mathematically meaningful.
07:04:10 <zzo38> If a mathematics tell you the probability of something is greater than 1, then that would mean is more likely than being definitely, and that seems impossible, but if mathematics tell you the answer is such a thing, how do you know that there is no such things as more likely than being definitely?
07:19:23 <zzo38> When discussing all these things about interpretation of physics, they cannot always involve science and sometimes they involve philosophy instead, but they also involve mathematics, too.
07:20:55 <Lumpio-> If mathematics tells you that the probability of something is more than 1, you should check your calculations...
07:21:23 <zzo38> Lumpio-: Well, yes, one possibility is that you have miscalculated, so you should check.
07:21:47 <quintopia> zzo38: that is the only possibility in that case
07:21:53 <quintopia> zzo38: you have some strange ideas
07:22:13 <zzo38> Yes I know my ideas are strange
07:24:37 <zzo38> But if a probability really is greater than 1, you still use the same rules of probability as otherwise, so if probability of one thing is 2 and another independent thing is 1/2 you can multiply for the probablility of both happening must be 1 so it must happen for sure. I do not know if this is possible but if it is possible then I would think it must work like this
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07:26:42 <quintopia> zzo38: probabilities must be in (0,1) in the real world. just like infinity doesn't actually exist in the real world.
07:28:23 <zzo38> quintopia: O, now you are talking about the "real world" again; but reality is not a quality that can be measured by litmus paper.
07:33:56 <zzo38> Even if you do not agree that a probability can be 2 (I am not quite sure either), would you agree that if it is possible, then you would still multiply them like I described?
07:34:43 <zzo38> Maybe there is a mathematical proof that it is impossible but I don't know of any.
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07:44:10 <Lumpio-> A probability greater than 1 is a bit silly
07:44:20 <Lumpio-> If the same rules still apply, you can make anything as probable as you want
07:44:33 <Lumpio-> Just repeatedly do the thing that has a probability >1
07:44:40 <Lumpio-> And then the improbable thing
07:44:46 <Lumpio-> Like 2*2*2*2*2*2*2*0.00001
07:45:01 <Lumpio-> (Needs more 2^n but you get the point)
07:45:45 <zzo38> To do that there needs to be seven independent events having a probability of 2
07:46:19 <zzo38> I can see what you are saying, though.
07:46:29 <zzo38> But still I am unsure, due to a few reasons.
07:48:39 <zzo38> In future once result is known, the probability from that point changes. It may lead to paradoxes such as the probability becoming less once the first event is known to occur, but this does not seem to be truly a mathematical contradiction.
07:49:49 <zzo38> Of course this is from the point of view; it doesn't necessarily have to do specifically with space and/or time.
07:49:59 <zzo38> It simply has to do with known/unknown.
07:52:14 <zzo38> But there may be things which can only be known together or which it is impossible to know two things at once, and other ways where the probability gets used, rather than in the way which is most familiar.
07:52:19 <zzo38> Lumpio-: I don't smoke.
08:00:56 <Taneb> Now I have the even-more-dubious honour of having my code removed from Uncyclopedia
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08:13:51 <Sgeo_> Never thought I'd see zzo38 discussing philosophy. Not sure why.
08:23:39 <zzo38> Actually I think of philosophy a lot.
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08:24:48 <Taneb> Can anyone tell me if there exists an IM client with a text-based interface and Skype combatability?
08:26:47 <zzo38> I do not know of any.
08:39:20 <Sgeo_> Why is my Yahoo! account getting spam in Persian?
08:39:59 <Gregor> Taneb: Is it acceptable if you have to have the graphical client running /somewhere/, but can use the text client for all other purposes? Because the libpurple plugin uses the proprietary client's API.
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08:57:22 <zzo38> I would like to know, if you like the description of the computer game "Potion of Confusing" which I have written above? It is the text which appears in the game.
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11:49:59 <nortti> uhm. I thing I managed to mess something up:
11:50:11 <nortti> :oonbotti MODE oonbotti :+i
11:50:11 <nortti> PRIVMSG oonbotti :I see. And what does that tell you?
11:50:12 <nortti> :oonbotti!~oonbotti@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi QUIT :Excess Flood
11:50:12 <nortti> PRIVMSG oonbotti :How do you feel when you say that?
11:50:12 <nortti> ERROR :Closing Link: a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi (Excess Flood)
11:50:14 <nortti> PRIVMSG RROR :Can you elaborate on that?
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11:56:22 <zzo38> nortti: Yes, clearly it is failing
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12:13:09 <nortti> now it answers you if you contact it by /msg oonbotti message
12:13:31 <nortti> you can still execute commands with /msg oonbotti command
12:19:02 <Phantom_Hoover> OK so I've now seen three photos of Shamus Young, and in none of them does he look like he does in any of the others.
12:19:38 <Taneb> Which one's Shamus Young again?
12:20:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Also several other things, like former ActiveWorlds dev.
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12:44:24 <zzo38> Do you know any MML -> MOD/S3M/IT/XM?
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12:46:43 <Taneb> Can I think of something else to obfuscate?
12:47:02 <Taneb> No, I don't think I can
12:47:58 <zzo38> Do you know how to write music for a computer game I make?
12:48:12 <Taneb> I have no musical talent whatsoever
12:48:57 <zzo38> Maybe Gregor knows?
12:49:16 <zzo38> Or perhaps madbrr knows?
12:57:00 <zzo38> Taneb: Do you play Pokemon Card?
13:06:28 <Taneb> zzo38, used to collect them
13:06:46 <Taneb> Never really got far
13:07:07 <zzo38> I don't collect any cards, but I sometimes play the game
13:09:30 <zzo38> What rules would you prefer to adjust in Magic: the Gathering?
13:09:38 <Taneb> I've never played it
13:09:57 <Taneb> The only custom-deck card game I've actually played is Sopio
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13:14:37 <Taneb> (which is really fun!
13:22:34 <zzo38> I dislike the rule that a aura which is also a creature is discarded; I dislike the rule that a token ceasing to exist as a state-based effect (in my opinion it should instead be based on initial states of objects); I think being unable to draw a card should be an immediate loss (rather than state-based effect); I think many of the rules are klugy
13:27:41 <Vorpal> you know what would be nice, having tasked based subsets of your Application menu in xfce. Like you select which group of programs to show launch icons for directly in your task bar
13:27:58 <Vorpal> for example, one group for C coding, another for photo editing work and so on
13:28:26 <Vorpal> because if I were to have all the icons there all the time, it would take up too much space
13:29:37 <Vorpal> would be even more useful under windows, since under linux it is fairly easy to start programs from the shell instead
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13:40:02 <nooga> i was testing Cathode
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14:14:17 <Taneb> I just finished a book
14:14:22 <Taneb> And I have so many to choose from
14:14:25 <Vorpal> Taneb, read another book?
14:14:43 <nortti> Taneb: have you read 1984? If you haven't read it
14:14:46 <Vorpal> Taneb, use a RNG to decide which book to read next
14:15:03 <Taneb> nortti, don't own a copy
14:15:05 <Vorpal> Taneb, or go read tvtropes
14:15:15 <Taneb> I'm avoiding TVTropes
14:15:33 <Vorpal> if you are bored you have some spare time
14:15:38 <Taneb> I want to do other things this evening
14:15:46 <zzo38> Try to play Super ASCII MZX Town
14:15:55 <nortti> Taneb: borrow it from library. or if you live in australi or canada download it as it is under public domain there
14:16:12 <Taneb> Local library is closed
14:16:19 <Taneb> But I'm an Australian citizen...
14:16:19 <Vorpal> nortti, how can it already be under public domain there?
14:16:47 <nortti> Vorpal: 50 years after death of author (1950)=2000
14:16:48 <Vorpal> Taneb, I hope you have an ebook reader then, reading long texts on a normal monitor is horrible
14:23:06 <nortti> I'll have still to wait 8 years before it will be under public domain here
14:23:38 <Vorpal> nortti, where is "here"?
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14:28:23 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
14:28:59 <Taneb> And this is coming from someone who had over 1800 friends on facebook
14:29:44 <zzo38> Try to play Super ASCII MZX Town, perhaps.
14:38:55 <elliott> shachaf: @DanielWagner: that's right I meant functions without parameters (variables?): a against a -> b for example. – L01man 4 hours ago
14:49:23 <oklopol> "<zzo38> I would like to know, if you like the description of the computer game "Potion of Confusing" which I have written above? It is the text which appears in the game." <<< you mean that whole thing about maths and probabilities over 1?
14:50:50 <zzo38> I mean the other one
14:51:00 <zzo38> Above that; search log perhaps
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15:04:44 <elliott> you're no good at this oklopol
15:05:58 <elliott> I have a week of free time and decent programming experience. Give me everything you've got on Haskell. (self.haskell)
15:06:11 <elliott> why are you at the top of /r/haskell
15:06:29 <nortti> oh god. I started reading tvtropes half an hour ago and I can't stop
15:07:36 <olsner> nortti: you can never stop
15:07:41 <olsner> at best you can take a break, but you will be back
15:09:06 <elliott> what works is realising it's boring and closing the tabs
15:09:28 <nortti> elliott: I have no tabs
15:09:33 <augur> http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=pNuUNHlsPgI
15:09:35 <elliott> then you have two problems
15:11:07 <nortti> "...and points out that needlessly killing other students is not the best way to go about things."
15:11:11 <elliott> Taneb: what is the weather doing
15:11:45 <Taneb> Is your roof leaking?
15:11:47 <elliott> it's REALLY FUCKING SPOOKY that I can ask Taneb what the weather is and he'll have the same answer is me
15:14:54 <elliott> Taneb: it's too much rain we'll run out ofrain
15:15:03 <Taneb> Then it will stop raining
15:15:15 <Taneb> It was raining when I joined this channel, I believe
15:15:33 <olsner> I did not observe the weather when I joined this channel
15:16:09 <Taneb> Oh god it is raining
15:16:51 <elliott> it was raining more a few seconds ago
15:19:41 <elliott> Taneb: how much did you bumble hundle pay
15:20:30 <elliott> Taneb: how much WILL you pay
15:21:02 <elliott> Taneb: Ha! That's below the Linux user average!
15:21:17 <Taneb> But I'm gonna pretend to be a Windows user
15:21:39 <elliott> If you pay less than $15, fizzie and whoever else it was will look down on you.
15:21:44 <Taneb> FORT EH GRATER GOOD
15:23:37 <Taneb> But first tell me which I should download first
15:24:08 <elliott> Bastion or Psychonauts I guess?
15:24:17 <elliott> I'd watch you play Amnesia.
15:24:32 <Taneb> I've already bought it twice; computer isn't good enough to play it
15:24:53 <Taneb> But the second time I bought it with Steam
15:24:55 <Vorpal> elliott, why not play Amensia yourself?
15:25:01 <Taneb> So future me with a better computer can play it
15:25:14 <Vorpal> elliott, I would watch you play Amensia if you had a face cam in the video :P
15:25:56 <elliott> These games are too big. :(
15:26:05 <elliott> Psychonauts is a whole four gigabytes.
15:26:07 <Vorpal> Taneb, anyway Bastion is by far the best game in the bundle. And that is because Psychonauts has some control and interface issues from being ported from consoles
15:26:10 <Taneb> I'll do it late at night in the summer
15:26:15 <elliott> It'll take, like, MINUTES to download.
15:26:25 <Vorpal> elliott, took me half an hour :/
15:26:35 <elliott> It'll probably take me an hour or two, at the least.
15:26:53 <elliott> My internet connection is slow.
15:26:54 <Vorpal> thought you had faster internet
15:26:59 <Vorpal> elliott, 8 mbit/s here
15:27:11 <Vorpal> and it might have been a bit more than half an hour actually
15:27:24 <Vorpal> I was maxing out my connection though
15:27:44 <elliott> I'd use the BitTorrent downloads but my connection can't seed.
15:27:49 <elliott> (Yes, I've tried forcing encryption and different ports.)
15:27:54 <elliott> (Yes, the port is forwarded.)
15:27:59 <elliott> (I have no idea what my ISP is doing.)
15:27:59 <Vorpal> huh why can't it seed then?
15:28:13 <elliott> Well, my upstream isn't very good. But I'm assuming it's *some* kind of filtering.
15:28:16 <Vorpal> elliott, checked the computer firewall as well?
15:28:25 <Vorpal> as in ufw under ubuntu or whatever
15:28:27 <elliott> Vorpal: Other connections in work fine.
15:28:32 <elliott> This is with Arch and OS X.
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15:29:04 <Vorpal> elliott, right IP reported to tracker?
15:29:26 <Vorpal> I had some issues with some torrent client (µtorrent iirc?) reporting the internal IP instead
15:29:27 <elliott> I don't want to play Psychonauts or Bastion right now.
15:29:41 <Vorpal> elliott, dude, LIMBO is scary. Not quite Amnesia level
15:29:41 <elliott> Vorpal: I've tried Transmission and rtorrent.
15:30:00 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm not scared of anything. Apart from lots of things. :(
15:30:03 <Vorpal> ktorrent worked well for me under linux
15:30:20 <elliott> It looks very pretty, from the trailer.
15:30:22 <Vorpal> why not go for sword and sworcery
15:30:35 <Vorpal> haven't played it yet. Though I did download it
15:30:47 <elliott> Is that not plot driven? The pretension of putting "EP" in the title of a game blinded me to the possibility that it might not be.
15:30:53 <Vorpal> elliott, I would say all the games in the original bundle had exceptional art styles.
15:31:10 <elliott> "Superbrothers: Sword & Sworcery EP delivers a completely fresh adventure gaming experience, defying conventions to develop a unique kind of storytelling."
15:31:14 <elliott> "The plot is unveiled in "sessions," [...]" etc.
15:31:45 <Vorpal> elliott, it has a funky main menu with a spnning LP. If you grab it with the cursor the music stops
15:32:36 <Vorpal> elliott, you could play Braid too if you haven't already. Very fun, though quite pretentious.
15:32:52 <elliott> "As a simple exercise to get me acquainted with Haskell, after idling around on Youtube and stumbling into the American Countdown game show, I wanted to make a solver for the Numbers game."
15:33:05 <elliott> Taneb: We have someone to kill.
15:33:09 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway I would strongly recommend playing Bastion. It is utterly awesome.
15:33:21 <elliott> Vorpal: I will play Bastion. Just not right now.
15:33:30 <elliott> I wonder if my Mac will handle it well enough.
15:33:35 <elliott> Taneb: The person who asked this question.
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15:33:41 <elliott> They called Countdown American.
15:33:44 <Taneb> That's a statement
15:33:44 <Vorpal> elliott, check the system requirements?
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15:34:02 <Taneb> I learnt my alphabet from Countdown!
15:34:09 <Taneb> It took me years to get the order
15:34:18 <Taneb> And I /still/ suck at anagrams
15:34:24 <elliott> Consonant, vowel, consonant, another consonant, vowel...
15:34:24 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway super meat boy while it has a story it is just really a cut scene at the start and at the end of each world
15:34:27 <Taneb> But I learnt my alphabet from Countdown!
15:34:28 <Vorpal> elliott, you could play that
15:34:42 <elliott> I was considering SMB. But I think I don't need to be more frustrated than I am.
15:34:51 <elliott> Okay, looks like I meet the minimum sysreqs for Bastion.
15:35:00 <Vorpal> elliott, oh come on it is a fun game!
15:35:12 <Vorpal> I recommend using a pad though
15:35:26 <elliott> Wow, SMB has steep processor requirements for Mac.
15:35:26 <Vorpal> (I don't have one, but I tried playing it with a pad at a friends house, much easier!)
15:35:29 <elliott> "Intel Core 2 Duo 2.66 Ghz"
15:35:55 <Vorpal> yeah that is more than my laptop (2.26 GHz)
15:36:08 <elliott> It'll probably work fine. I hope.
15:36:09 <Vorpal> way less than my desktop (core i7 3.4 GHz)
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15:36:26 <Vorpal> elliott, but yeah if you don't have a pad, SMB will be frustrating
15:36:40 <elliott> PS3 controllers work on computers, right?
15:36:41 <Taneb> Dual core 2x2.1GHz
15:36:44 <elliott> Maybe I'll purchase myself one.
15:37:11 <Vorpal> elliott, iirc xbox controllers work on computers as well
15:37:11 <Taneb> I've got a wired XBox controller somewhere
15:37:25 <Taneb> Vorpal, you need a bluetooth adaptor for wireless ones
15:37:27 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't like the look of the Xbox controller much.
15:37:45 <elliott> Well, I find the DualShock design close to optimal.
15:37:58 <elliott> The Xbox 360 one is more curvy, which seems like it'd be harder to grip.
15:38:06 <elliott> Also the d-pad looks not as good.
15:38:11 <elliott> But I haven't ever actually used one, so YMMV.
15:38:13 <Taneb> I quite like the feel of the XBox 360
15:38:30 <Taneb> But I've never used a PS3 one and haven't used a PS2 one for YEARS
15:38:34 <elliott> However I do wish the left analogue stick and d-pad were swapped on the DualShock.
15:39:00 <Taneb> Wii Classic Controller is pretty awful
15:40:16 <elliott> Oh, I should probably eat.
15:40:30 <Taneb> That is generally a good idea
15:40:47 <Taneb> 1/1.1GB of Bastion downloaded
15:40:49 <elliott> Vorpal: Admittedly, I haven't played on a PS3.
15:41:00 <elliott> Vorpal: But I've played on a PS2.
15:41:05 <elliott> And the DualShock 3 looks basically the same.
15:41:05 <Vorpal> I haven't played much on either
15:41:19 <Vorpal> elliott, why not the N64 controller
15:41:25 <elliott> Well, it's been years. But I liked the controller.
15:41:38 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't have three hands.
15:41:56 <elliott> The GameCube controller is weird too.
15:42:02 <elliott> (I stole that third-hand joke:
15:42:08 <HackEgo> 607) <fizzie> I prefer the N64 controller, it's the only one that has place for my third hand.
15:42:09 <elliott> (http://www.electricpig.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/gamecube-controller.jpg)
15:42:53 <Vorpal> the SNES controller was good though
15:43:06 <elliott> The lack of grips isn't ideal.
15:43:14 <elliott> Handles. Whatever you call them.
15:43:19 <elliott> I admit it has minimalist appeal, though.
15:43:42 <Vorpal> elliott, then surely the NES one is even better
15:43:52 <Vorpal> also what about that strange one earlier that had a keypads
15:44:13 <Vorpal> I don't remember which system it was on
15:44:15 <elliott> http://www.nesprojects.com/Images/Original/NES%20TV%20Remote.jpg I... see.
15:45:41 <Vorpal> also horrible lag atm due to swap trashing
15:46:23 <nortti> why do you have swap trashing? how big is you RAM?
15:46:39 <Vorpal> 2 GB on this laptop. But I'm running an upgrade of an OS in qemu
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16:03:11 <Taneb> I reckon Bastion'd be easier with a mouse
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16:06:07 <elliott> Vorpal: Oh, does Bastion use the mouse?
16:06:28 <Vorpal> elliott, well it was originally an xbox live arcade game. So it works on controller too
16:06:38 <Vorpal> elliott, but it works well with wasd and mouse for aiming
16:07:01 <elliott> Guess I'll get a gamepad, then.
16:07:13 <Vorpal> elliott, it works very well with a mouse
16:07:22 <Vorpal> probably easier to aim even
16:07:25 <elliott> I don't have a mouse connected to a working computer.
16:07:27 <quintopia> elliott: get the link to report.c to appear :P
16:07:32 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
16:07:36 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/report.txt
16:07:45 <elliott> as far as report.c it's not anywhere in there
16:07:46 <Vorpal> elliott, mouse a mouse from a non-working computer to a working one?
16:08:04 <elliott> Vorpal: i have nowhere to put this mac that would support a mouse
16:08:10 <elliott> lap-based mousing sounds awkward
16:08:19 <Vorpal> elliott, hm yeah it does
16:08:32 <Vorpal> elliott, what sort of input device does it currently have?
16:09:12 <elliott> I've... played Minecraft with it.
16:09:22 <elliott> In fact I did most of the Cube work with it.
16:09:27 <elliott> It wasn't the most convenient thing.
16:09:40 <elliott> quintopia: https://bitbucket.org/GregorR
16:09:46 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway psychonauts uses the mouse to look as well
16:09:48 <elliott> oh, he hasn't imported it yet
16:10:53 <quintopia> elliott: meh. cant hg here. i'll do it later.
16:11:12 <elliott> quintopia: You realise bitbucket lets you download the files without hg, right? But it's not there, anyway.
16:11:29 <Vorpal> elliott, I think bastion would work well with a trackpoint too
16:11:58 <elliott> quintopia: http://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/index.cgi/file/ffe171208ae9/multibot_cmds/interps/bfjoust/report.c
16:12:46 <Vorpal> elliott, well sword and sworcery seems to be kind of like a point and click, but it has actual fighting mechanics and what not
16:13:19 <elliott> Monkey Island has fighting mechanics too :P
16:13:23 <elliott> They just happen to be trivial.
16:13:27 <Vorpal> elliott, I mean sword and shield stuff
16:13:33 <Vorpal> they are fairly trivial here too
16:13:45 <Vorpal> it is attack and block, but there is an element of timing
16:13:46 <quintopia> huh cant see why my code wouldnt work then. weirds.
16:14:05 <Vorpal> elliott, also a chase scene early on. That is unusual
16:14:18 <Vorpal> in a point and click I mean
16:14:36 <Vorpal> great sound track though
16:14:59 <Vorpal> elliott, but yeah play amnesia :P
16:16:18 <Vorpal> hm the OST is named "Sword & Sworcery: The Ballad of the Space Babies" according to the cover.jpg included in the zip
16:16:37 <Vorpal> quite. The track titles are just as strange
16:17:52 <Vorpal> The Prettiest Weed, Ode To A Room, Bones McCoy, Little Furnace, Activating Trigons, How We Get Old, And We Got Older are some of the stranger titles
16:19:15 <Vorpal> pretty good music though
16:19:30 <quintopia> Vorpal: thats in the humblemusic bundle 3?
16:20:03 <Vorpal> quintopia, sound track for one of the games in the humble bundle 5
16:20:05 <elliott> quintopia: The Humble Bundle comes with soundtracks now.
16:20:13 <Vorpal> what is the humble music bundle?
16:20:39 <Vorpal> also bastion has one of the best sound tracks ever
16:20:42 <elliott> actually afaik there is no actual such thing
16:20:49 <elliott> but there is an indie game music bundle 3
16:20:56 <elliott> the word "humble" does not appear in its name
16:21:43 <Vorpal> Psychonauts sound track is a bit hectic, works well in the game though. Not quite as nice when you listen to it separately
16:22:38 <elliott> Hey, one of the iMUSE guys did the Psychonauts soundtrack.
16:22:40 <elliott> I guess that's not surprising.
16:22:51 <elliott> Oh, he also did Grim Fandango.
16:22:55 <elliott> Vorpal: Have you played Grim Fandango?
16:23:21 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, don't. The controls are the most unbearable thing in the universe. But apart from that it's brilliant.
16:23:40 <Vorpal> elliott, is it like that horrible 3D monkey island?
16:23:41 <elliott> (It's a 3D point-and-click adventure game where you have to use the keyboard to move around and click things.)
16:24:09 <Vorpal> anyway I doubt scummvm runs it
16:24:13 <elliott> Vorpal: OTOH, unlike the Monkey Island 4, which is a terrible game, it's a really good game instead.
16:24:22 <elliott> They have a subproject to run games with the GrimE engine.
16:24:25 <elliott> I don't know how far along it is.
16:24:31 <elliott> http://wiki.scummvm.org/index.php/ResidualVM
16:24:35 <elliott> http://www.residualvm.org/
16:24:42 <elliott> "We have reached a rather important milestone for ResidualVM, we are gearing up for our first release, which will support Grim Fandango. To make sure that we don't have any big showstoppers, we need your help."
16:24:52 <Vorpal> elliott, you know they released MI1 and MI2 with new graphics as special edition some time ago?
16:24:54 <elliott> (But probably it's easier to just use Wine or something.)
16:25:14 <elliott> I'm happy they did it, but I didn't buy it, because I'm happy with the originals and in any case probably won't replay them any time soon.
16:25:16 <Vorpal> saw a bit of an LP of MI2 SE, looked nice, and had some quite nice voice acting
16:25:25 <Vorpal> kind of surprised they spent so much work on it
16:25:29 <elliott> I never did finish MI2. :(
16:25:42 <elliott> I got to the final "boss fight" but never managed to defeat LeChuck.
16:25:47 <Vorpal> also MI3 is my favourite.
16:25:56 <elliott> Mostly because I kept freaking out because of the time constraints and then jumping when he appeared.
16:26:16 <Vorpal> elliott, I love the pirate song in MI3
16:26:19 <elliott> I like CMI too, but come on, Gilbert wasn't even involved!
16:26:37 <elliott> Admittedly it's the one I have strongest memories of.
16:26:44 <elliott> But I think MI2 is probably the slightly better game.
16:26:49 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway the pirate song is awesome
16:26:59 <elliott> I played MI1 on an Atari ST!
16:27:02 <Vorpal> I liked the puzzles of MI1
16:27:16 <elliott> It was... uh... fun, I guess.
16:27:24 <elliott> Did you know the original MI1 release had an even more complicated interface?
16:27:36 <Vorpal> apart from the chicken with pulley though
16:27:39 <elliott> http://media.photobucket.com/image/monkey%20island%201/ATMachine/mimisc1/mi1egafac17.png
16:27:48 <Vorpal> elliott, can't launch a browse atm due to swap trashing
16:27:58 <elliott> Direct link is http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b241/ATMachine/mimisc1/mi1egafac17.png
16:28:25 <elliott> The distinction between "Turn on" and "Use" is, like, paramount, man.
16:28:36 <Vorpal> waiting for eog to load XD
16:28:47 <elliott> (By the way, do you mean "thrashing"?)
16:29:29 <Vorpal> anyway yeah that is a silly interface
16:29:56 <Vorpal> elliott, the radial menu in the special editions and CMI is far better if you need to both push and pull something
16:29:57 <elliott> CMI's interface is very good.
16:30:15 <Vorpal> same sort of interface in the special editions
16:30:25 <elliott> Although I suspect that it's a little bit more complicated than it needs to be.
16:30:39 <Vorpal> also I like the special edition graphics style far better than the CMI graphics style
16:30:41 <elliott> The "use" vs. "talk to" distinction isn't really ever useful and is only funny to misuse ~three times.
16:31:01 <elliott> Really? I love CMI's style.
16:31:34 <Vorpal> a bit too strong lines in it.
16:32:19 <elliott> Did you know Crawl has a Monkey Island reference???
16:32:28 <Vorpal> what is the reference?
16:32:46 <Vorpal> also the battle mechanics in CMI are better than in MI1, due to the rhyming
16:35:08 <elliott> Vorpal: There's a demonic skull called Murray in hell.
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16:53:50 <Taneb> Games are intrinsically monoidal
16:54:10 <Taneb> Semigroupal, at least
16:55:29 <Taneb> Simplification of Snakes and Ladders
16:55:48 <Taneb> Or snakes and ladders, it doesn't actually need simplifying
16:56:15 <Taneb> A player can choose six moves
16:56:45 <Taneb> That the move is chosen via a die is irrelevant
16:58:40 <Taneb> They're also useful tools for explaining my thought
16:58:53 <Taneb> This would be a lot more complicated if I chose to explain using Chess
16:59:09 <Taneb> "5, 3" is a section of a game-log
16:59:37 <Taneb> (2, 5) <> (3) == 2 <> (5, 3)
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17:01:09 <Taneb> Unfortunately, this may lead to invalid gamestates
17:01:48 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, that doesn't explain drinking games
17:02:55 <Taneb> Vorpal, you may be mixing up drinking with drinks
17:04:10 <mroman> Why does "foo = foo; foo + foo;" pass through haskells typechecker?
17:04:22 <mroman> at least the "foo + foo" part of it.
17:04:42 <Taneb> :t let foo = foo in foo
17:05:05 <mroman> bat there is no instance Num for t?
17:05:15 <Taneb> Including t's for which Num is defined
17:05:31 <Taneb> :t let foo = (foo :: Int) in foo
17:05:58 <Taneb> All it knows is that foo is the same type as foo
17:06:05 <Taneb> That may be an Int, for all Haskell knows
17:06:23 <Taneb> let foo = foo in foo == _|_
17:06:24 <mroman> So t is literally "of any type"?
17:06:32 <mroman> and haskell may deduce everything out of it?
17:07:40 <Taneb> Principle of explosion
17:08:05 <mroman> Sometimes I get error messages like Could not deduce Num ~ a
17:08:14 <mroman> and I have to manually tell ghc that it is Num.
17:08:19 <Vorpal> damn I think this USB memory stick is dead.
17:08:30 <Taneb> That's happened to me before
17:08:32 <mroman> so I was surprised that it can deduce Num ~ t in the case of foo = foo
17:08:40 <Taneb> On the one day I actually did my Latin homework
17:08:41 <Vorpal> good thing I didn't have anything important on it, but now I need to find another one to transfer this stuff
17:08:51 <elliott> mroman: Num is not a type.
17:08:54 <Vorpal> Taneb, all that was on it was a bootable linux distro
17:09:00 <mroman> elliott: It's a type class, yes.
17:09:08 <elliott> My point is that you will never get such an error message.
17:09:15 <Vorpal> Taneb, you learn latin?
17:09:23 <Taneb> It's better than Spanish
17:09:32 <Vorpal> why not go for French?
17:09:36 <elliott> Anyway, "Could not deduce T ~ a" is a misleading error message; what it really means is "You used an 'a' where I expected a 'T'"; "Type mismatch: T =/= a but you're treating them the same", and so on.
17:09:47 <Taneb> French was compulsory, I enjoyed latin more
17:09:59 <Taneb> :t let foo = foo in replicate foo 'a'
17:10:05 <Taneb> > let foo = foo in replicate foo 'a'
17:10:21 <mroman> class Foo a where doStuff :: a -> a -> a
17:10:29 <Vorpal> Taneb, here English is compulsory. And I took French as the optional one
17:10:32 <mroman> instance Foo Bar where doStuff q = q + q produces such an error message
17:10:44 <Vorpal> Obviously Swedish is compulsory too
17:10:57 <mroman> Because ghc has no chance of knowing that Num a =>
17:11:06 <Taneb> But yeah, I've escaped English and French
17:11:10 <elliott> mroman: You will never see the message "Could not deduce Num ~ a", except possibly when using ConstraintKinds.
17:11:16 <Vorpal> Taneb, how? You live in UK
17:11:21 <Vorpal> you can't escape English
17:11:23 <elliott> You may see "Could not deduce Num a" or "Could not deduce Int ~ a", though.
17:11:29 <Taneb> The subject, not the language
17:11:32 <Vorpal> Taneb, no clue what that means in Swedish terms
17:11:47 <Taneb> Means I'm old enough to specialize
17:11:51 <Taneb> AND IT IS TIME TO COOK
17:11:52 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
17:17:07 -!- Taneb has joined.
17:17:12 <Taneb> IT IS TIME TO CHAT
17:22:05 <Taneb> But, alas, nothing is everything
17:22:22 <Taneb> :t fix id + fix id
17:22:37 <Taneb> :t fix id >> fix id
17:22:38 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *) b. (Monad m) => m b
17:22:39 <elliott> my fix can;t id im newr in potins
17:22:50 <Taneb> :t fix id <> fix id
17:23:00 <Taneb> :t fix id `mappend` fix id
17:23:07 <Taneb> :t fix id `mplus` fix id
17:23:08 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *) a. (MonadPlus m) => m a
17:23:08 <elliott> (++) is mappend in lambdabot
17:23:14 <lambdabot> forall m. (Monoid m) => m -> m -> m
17:23:31 <Taneb> :t replicate (fix id) (fix id)
17:23:47 <Taneb> :t fix (sum . replicate 1)
17:23:59 <Taneb> > fix (sum . replicate 1)
17:24:14 <Taneb> (trivia, this is either 1 or 0)
17:24:49 <Taneb> (no it isn't, it's any number)
17:25:01 <Taneb> > fix (head . replicate 1)
17:25:47 <elliott> :t fix (head . replicate 1)
17:26:15 <Sgeo_> Is pushing my gf to learn Haskell likely to make her a better programmer?
17:26:20 <Sgeo_> She seems to be under that impression
17:26:34 <Taneb> Sgeo_, better at Haskell programming
17:26:37 <Sgeo_> (After I expressed guilt about not doing much for her after she helped fix up my resume)
17:27:06 <Taneb> Worse at C programming, Java programming, Python programming, Go programming, JavaScript programming, C# programming, C++ programming
17:27:29 <Taneb> Assembly programming, D programming, Lisp programming, Visual Basic programming, PHP programming, ASP programming
17:27:47 <Taneb> Also Category theory
17:27:50 <Sgeo_> What, by spoiling her?
17:28:39 <Taneb> Haskell's pretty damn addictive
17:28:51 <Taneb> And gives false impressions about category theory
17:32:43 -!- ais523 has joined.
17:34:02 <Taneb> So, now I have no idea what a Functor actually /is/
17:36:11 <ais523> elliott: its when you ground up wheat
17:36:12 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
17:36:15 <lambdabot> elliott said 1d 16h 56m 2s ago: <olsner> elliott: I can confirm that I have no clue what kuskelar the clatsop man is doing
17:37:12 <Taneb> :t head . replicate 1
17:45:22 <zzo38> Taneb: Then learn what a functor is. A functor is homomorphism of a category to another category (possibly the same one, in which case it is endofunctor)
17:45:52 <Taneb> You do realise I have a very poor idea of most of the words in that sentence?
17:46:02 <Taneb> I'm going to play with modal logic for a bit
17:46:12 <Taneb> I think possibility is a Monad
17:47:07 <zzo38> Taneb: Well, a monad is endofunctor having two additional operations defined (in Haskell, called return and join) satisfying certain laws.
17:47:16 <ais523> oh, elliott, you might know what this is called because we don't: what's it called where you have a family of things that sort-of obey the comonad laws, except that instead of it being the same comonad each time, it's a different member of the family?
17:47:32 <elliott> ais523: I don't quite understan
17:47:55 <zzo38> The Functor class in Haskell is for endofunctors on (->) category
17:48:07 <ais523> well, you have laws like "if you have an Mx, you can get an MMx", right?
17:48:22 <ais523> this is "if you have an (M_i)x, you can get an (M_j)(M_k)x"
17:48:41 <ais523> and so on with the other comonad laws
17:50:49 <elliott> perhaps an indexed comonad?
17:51:11 <elliott> (>>=) :: (IMonad m) => m i j a -> (a -> m j k b) -> m j k b
17:51:20 <elliott> so you need a "transition"
17:51:52 <elliott> :t let (>>=) = undefined :: m i j a -> (a -> m j k b) -> m j k b in (>>= id)
17:51:53 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> * -> * -> *) i j k b. m i j (m j k b) -> m j k b
17:52:05 <elliott> join :: m i j (m j k a) -> m j k a
17:52:17 <elliott> extend :: w j k a -> w i j (m j k a)
17:52:18 <zzo38> returnI :: a -> m x x a; joinI :: m x y (m y z a) -> m x z a; is defining a indexed monad, I think
17:52:35 <elliott> something lik ethat anyway
17:52:43 <zzo38> For indexed comonad you would then have extractI :: w x x a -> a; duplicateI :: w x z a -> w x y (w y z a);
17:52:46 <elliott> ais523: sorry, I got it wrong, zzo38's types are right
17:53:00 <ais523> oh, right, zzo38's types make more sense
17:53:11 <ais523> I need to work out whether that's what I have or not
17:53:26 <elliott> so instead of pulling a path closer together like indexed monads, an indexed comonad lets you stretch the path out
17:53:38 <elliott> not sure what that would be useful for, although it sounds interesting
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17:53:47 <zzo38> Notice that some monads and comonads that use a monoid (such as Writer and Traced), the indexed version of them will use a category.
17:54:27 <elliott> how does that work? say Writer
17:54:55 <zzo38> elliott: Well, it seem obvious to me, but I could explain if wanted.
17:55:09 <elliott> i'm kind of dumb :) but let me think
17:55:18 <elliott> return :: a -> Writer cat x x a
17:55:34 <elliott> join :: Writer cat x y (Writer cat y z a) -> Writer cat x z a
17:55:43 <ais523> ooh, what I've got isn't /quite/ an indexed monad either, it's a quotient of them over something
17:56:10 <Taneb> Hence, possibility is a Monad
17:56:21 <ais523> Taneb: heh, ours is called ◇ too
17:56:23 <Taneb> Or Monads represent possibility?
17:56:41 <elliott> I think you don't have that, although I forget
17:56:43 <Taneb> elliott, fmap is definable using join and return
17:56:46 <zzo38> Taneb: Yes you do need fmap too. But in what category would they be?
17:56:49 <zzo38> Taneb: No it isn't
17:57:00 <elliott> there's lots of things like monads or comonads except they don't have fmap
17:57:03 <elliott> in modal logic type things
17:57:07 <Taneb> (a -> b) -> ◇a -> ◇b
17:57:11 <ais523> elliott: this is definitely a modal logic type thing
17:57:17 <ais523> both Taneb's and mine :)
17:57:31 <Taneb> Hence possibility is a Monad
17:58:29 <zzo38> You also have to say what category, I suppose.
17:59:37 <ais523> elliott: OK, so what I've got is ◇_(a*b)x -> (◇_a)(◇_b)x
17:59:54 <ais523> where you should interpret that * as being a generic multiplication-like operator
18:00:02 <ais523> (it's commutative semiring multiplication)
18:00:06 <elliott> ah, so not extend :: w (a,b) x -> w a (w b x), then
18:00:47 <ais523> that would be a special case, I think there's a semiring with tupling as its multiplication (although not a commutative one)
18:01:17 -!- asiekierka has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:01:34 <ais523> we found a generic structure behind all the resource-bounding type systems we'd been looking at (apart from SCI, but that just needs a side-condition)
18:02:16 <ais523> the specific motivating example is realtime type systems that prove that everything executes in the time it's meant to, and that every part of the system is ready to receive input when it actually gets input
18:02:23 <ais523> which can be synthesized into pipelined circuitry
18:03:25 <ais523> elliott: anyway, it's clear that this is the quotient of an indexed comonad: instead of w i j x, I have w q x where q*i = j
18:04:04 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: CHILI THYME).
18:04:14 <elliott> but what's the RHS of extend there?
18:04:30 <elliott> because on the RHS, you need two values again
18:05:10 <elliott> extend :: w x z a -> w x y (w y z a)
18:05:23 <elliott> ais523: so it's actually w (x*z) a -> w (x*y) (w (y*z) a)
18:05:26 <zzo38> Do you mean duplicate?
18:05:31 <elliott> ais523: oh, I guess you just pick y = 1
18:05:47 <ais523> whether or not we pick y=1 has been a raging argument between me and my supervisor over the last several weeks
18:05:55 <ais523> and we're /still/ not entirely sure which is better, or even which sides we're on any more
18:05:58 <elliott> ais523: well, actually, there's a big problem
18:06:09 <elliott> ais523: that type signature means that whoever picks extend gets to *pick y themselves*
18:06:28 <elliott> then it's my right to demand w (x*42) (w (42*z) a) back
18:06:31 <ais523> then I can pick any y I like, right
18:06:35 <ais523> that's not a problem in our use of it
18:06:52 <elliott> now, if this works for you, it has the happy consequence that "whether or not we pick y=1" is an incoherent argument
18:06:53 <ais523> the problem's specifically in the presentation
18:06:55 <elliott> because you don't get to pick
18:07:04 <ais523> as in, do we define things for y=1 and then specify rules to transform to other y
18:07:11 <ais523> or do we define things generically over y in the first place
18:07:16 <elliott> the latter, former sounds awful
18:07:25 <elliott> say close to the comonadic defniition
18:07:40 <elliott> unless there are compelling reasons not to
18:07:44 <elliott> if it affects how the language is used or something
18:07:48 <ais523> well, it wasn't intended to be a comonad originally, we just sort-of noticed it was
18:07:48 <elliott> assuming it's still that thing
18:08:00 <elliott> ais523: meh, it doesn't matter when you notice as long as you do
18:08:01 <ais523> this sort of thing happens a lot in category theory
18:09:00 <ais523> nortti: you can't get a loop from that because fungot ignores oonbotti
18:09:01 <fungot> ais523: lafeu. do not i know you do, if they meane a fray to be fought between sir hugh the welsh priest and caius the french doctor
18:09:13 <elliott> nortti: you're not allowed to use your own bots to botloop
18:09:16 <ais523> nortti: but I set one up before the ignore was added
18:09:30 <nortti> elliott: I am not botlooping
18:09:32 <ais523> Underload is an /excellent/ language for writing botloops in
18:11:21 <nortti> #rawirc PRIVMSG oonbotti :#readmsg
18:11:30 <ais523> elliott: perhaps I should just present both presentations in the paper
18:11:37 <ais523> the main issue there is proving them equivalent
18:11:46 <elliott> ais523: don't give in to imperfection!
18:12:02 <nortti> yay. I managed to make 1 bot botloop
18:12:07 -!- oonbotti has quit (Quit: oonbotti).
18:12:10 <ais523> it's kind-of awkward to read with the extra y in everywhere (except we didn't call it y)
18:12:12 <ais523> nortti: in PM to itself?
18:12:48 <ais523> what's the point of a botloop if you can't spam a channel with it?
18:13:20 -!- oonbotti has joined.
18:13:24 <zzo38> It doesn't matter whether or not you can spam a channel with it.
18:14:18 <nortti> hmm. it loses all of the messages
18:14:55 <Vorpal> https://imgur.com/1e1m2 <-- I took this picture recently with my crappy mobile camera. Still I think that was an amazing car.
18:15:13 -!- oonbotti has quit (Client Quit).
18:16:10 <Vorpal> (also it had both plush dice and a wunderbaum hanging from the rear view mirror!)
18:16:13 -!- oonbotti has joined.
18:16:51 <Vorpal> elliott, look at https://imgur.com/1e1m2
18:17:12 <Vorpal> elliott, it claims to be a Volvo, a WW and a Skoda. :)
18:17:27 -!- nortti has changed nick to nortti_.
18:17:30 <elliott> i don't buy any car unless it's a bmw and a horse
18:17:31 -!- nortti_ has changed nick to nortti.
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18:33:43 <Sgeo_> Oh god I think I'm going to end up arguing with a /r/TheLastAirbender mod
18:34:05 <Sgeo_> I don't want to argue with a mod
18:42:07 <Sgeo_> elliott, have you ever argued with a mod of a subreddit?
18:42:38 <Phantom_Hoover> i once argued with an r/gameofthrones mod if that helps
18:46:07 <Sgeo_> Phantom_Hoover, because I like Avatar: The Last Airbender and Legend of Korra?
18:47:25 <Sgeo_> I say that the unspoilered stuff in http://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastAirbender/comments/ut8sn/oh_nick_always_the_tease/c4ybugf is a spoiler, mod says it's just a theory
18:47:53 <Sgeo_> Note that we got (what seems to be) a clear answer to the question of whether the two characters are the same today.
18:50:48 <Sgeo_> Maybe I should have linked to context?
18:52:34 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
18:52:59 <Sgeo_> http://pastie.org/private/m5gd9ncmfogmd6cd18sjhg
18:53:06 <Sgeo_> I hope that was a decent reply
18:53:24 <Sgeo_> ....I think I just violated reddiquette, by sharing that
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19:15:34 <oerjan> <zzo38> I agree with Hawking's "Reality is not a quality you can test with litmus paper." <-- except the reality of pH
19:16:43 <lambdabot> monqy: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
19:16:57 -!- oerjan has set topic: baking in hi again | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
19:18:44 -!- elliott has set topic: waking | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
19:19:41 <oerjan> why must people break the rules even if i never explained them
19:19:58 <oerjan> (of course elliott would break them even more if i did)
19:20:10 <elliott> please explain the rules so i may break them more effectively
19:20:48 -!- quintopia has set topic: waking | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
19:21:07 <nortti> "kind of like Bolshevik R2-D2"
19:21:10 <oerjan> no reusing previous words, always go in steps of 1 levenshtein distance
19:21:23 <elliott> quintopia: what did you change
19:21:31 <oerjan> (ok not changing it at all is permitted)
19:21:49 <quintopia> elliott: the name of the person who posted the last topic
19:21:58 <oerjan> quintopia: plagiarist!
19:25:22 <fungot> nortti: rosin. take you this. julia. no, by this same coxcombe that we haue giuen thee faces to the bent of womans fancy? i am a daughter to his blood
19:25:51 <fungot> Selected style: c64 (C64 programming material)
19:25:57 <fungot> nortti: 0): the optional step keyword is called multicolor text mode. if your output is not a plus sign () specifies that the second
19:26:35 <nortti> how does fungot create those sentences?
19:26:35 <fungot> nortti: 20 next n,k,j ( stopping nested loops) is accomplished by jumping directly into the system provides for " auto-start" of using " actual numbers": print t(t); 130 for q= 1 to 8
19:29:03 <nortti> so fungot prints out something if message contains word fungot?
19:29:04 <fungot> nortti: new ( performs a logical file number can range from zero to one cor- respondence between the last four sid chip are numerous and varied. only then is it a little more involved, by controlling bits 0, four of the control and command register 660 so it can be found just by pokeing their screen codes needed for the characters
19:33:06 <oerjan> nortti: fizzie pregenerates files with markov chain probabilities for each style, which fungot uses
19:33:06 <fungot> oerjan: 2) is increased by one nybble of the transformations you can define dozens of sprite movement is called the sprite character. there is a simple poke 792,193 will accomplish this. the
19:35:58 * Sgeo_ is still pissed http://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastAirbender/comments/ut8sn/oh_nick_always_the_tease/c4ybugf?context=1
19:37:44 <zzo38> Do you prefer my rules for ties in Pokemon Card, or the standard rules, or some other variant which I have not heard of?
19:39:43 <oerjan> i prefer a variant which _no_ one has heard of, not even me
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19:40:18 <HackEgo> HackEgo: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
19:42:28 <nortti> could someone explain what is so bad about busybox vi?
19:52:40 -!- Taneb has joined.
19:55:30 <Taneb> I think that, rather than Possibility being a monad, Possibility is what monads translate to under the curry-howard isomorphism
19:56:08 <zzo38> Taneb: It still has to be an endofunctor, though
19:56:13 <Taneb> Where m a means "It is possible that an a exists"
19:56:31 <elliott> I do not think that is true at all.
19:56:36 <elliott> At least, I don't think CH really works like that.
19:56:42 <Taneb> I'm almost certainly wrong
19:56:49 <elliott> That loses the distinction between two separate monads, if they both translate to Possibility...
19:58:46 <zzo38> Is (Time -> Amplitude) a reasonable representation of (not yet stored to file) audio data in Haskell?
19:59:39 <elliott> It's inefficient to modify, though.
20:01:45 <oerjan> <elliott> At least, I don't think CH really works like that. <-- actually that rings a bell...
20:02:21 <elliott> oerjan: Probability being a monad seems reasonable; the other way around doesn't really...
20:02:35 <oerjan> each monad could correspond to a modal logic, in other words
20:02:50 <Vorpal> well I just sent some files over bluetooth to my laptop. Apparently the transfer was successful. But it didn't tell me where it placed the sodding file...
20:03:11 <Vorpal> oh in ~/Public? Why did it create that directory and why did it place it there?
20:04:19 <zzo38> One thing is the monad of probabilities like (WriterT (Product x) []) but that may not be what you meant
20:04:23 <elliott> oerjan: that sounds reasonable
20:04:24 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curry%E2%80%93Howard_correspondence#Correspondence_between_natural_deduction_and_lambda_calculus mentions it in the list at the end
20:04:34 <elliott> oerjan: I didn't interpret what Taneb said as that,t hough
20:04:56 <Taneb> elliott, consider that I never know quite what I'm on about
20:05:02 <Taneb> I'm like itidus-lite
20:05:03 <oerjan> elliott: well naturally, although every modal logic with the right axioms corresponds to _some_ notion of possibility, i should think
20:05:35 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah anyway I did a find on ~ to find it
20:06:02 <Vorpal> (some 80 GB or so, with tens of thousands of small files under ~/src)
20:06:43 <Taneb> Necessity may be a comonoad
20:06:49 <Vorpal> actually I will run find ~ | wc -l out of interest
20:07:02 <nortti> Vorpal: how often do you klean your ~/src ?
20:07:27 <Vorpal> nortti, why would I clean away my own code
20:07:32 <Vorpal> and projects I work on
20:07:37 <Taneb> If it x is necessary, it is necessary that x is necessary
20:07:48 <Vorpal> okay there are some other stuff there, but only things I need actually
20:08:02 <Vorpal> like a cross compiler toolchain build environment for h8300-coff
20:08:04 <Taneb> If x is necessary, x must be
20:08:14 <zzo38> And then you should need fmap
20:08:28 <Taneb> Yeah, that's the hard one
20:08:32 <nortti> Vorpal: ah. I thought you used ~/src for compiling programs from source and placed your own projects to something like ~/projects
20:09:13 <Vorpal> nortti, nah, stuff I compile from source go there too, but get removed (apart from a file that contains the ./configure flags used, to help with upgrades)
20:09:14 <Taneb> If the existence of x forces the existence of y, does the necessity of x force the necessity of y?
20:09:49 <Vorpal> nortti, this is on my laptop. My desktop is booted to windows atm, so I can't check ther
20:10:41 <Vorpal> that is a sizable part of it
20:11:13 <nortti> find projects/ | wc -l
20:11:29 <Vorpal> I think I have a two linux kernels there too. One is for this laptop the other is for cross compiling to an old dell desktop that takes far too long to do it by itself
20:11:43 <Vorpal> (it is a P3 @ 993 MHz, 512 MB RAM)
20:11:57 <nortti> and it is still faster than mine :P
20:12:07 <Vorpal> do you compile your own kernel though?
20:12:17 <mroman> That's like 3 times as fast as 333 Mhz Pentium
20:12:33 <Vorpal> mroman, almost. I have no idea why they didn't go for 1 GHz
20:12:39 <Vorpal> nortti, also that dell desktop came with windows 98
20:13:01 <Vorpal> well might have been SE
20:13:14 <Vorpal> point is that it is bloody outdated
20:13:23 <nortti> and it has winXPpro license taped to it
20:13:27 <Vorpal> nortti, anyway that dell has a 20 GB HDD
20:14:02 <nortti> wow. that is smaller than in my computer
20:14:04 <Vorpal> also the HDD started making strange noises recently.
20:14:10 <Taneb> Oh, come on, I've got (<*>) but not fmap
20:14:12 <Vorpal> And I can't find any other IDE disks
20:14:43 <elliott> If you have pure and (<*>) you have fmap.
20:14:57 <Taneb> Not without the naturalistic fallacy
20:15:17 <Vorpal> Taneb, what is that fallacy?
20:15:24 <Taneb> What is true is good
20:15:49 <Taneb> If p is the case, p ought to be permitted
20:17:09 <Taneb> For some values of necessity, that fallacy is not a fallacy
20:17:17 <Taneb> But consider the necessity of Law.
20:17:25 <Taneb> Murder happens, so should murder be legal?
20:18:47 <Taneb> We're into philosophy and law here, two topics I am even less well versed in than I am mathematics and computer science
20:18:57 <Taneb> So, I'll think of a different example
20:21:53 <oerjan> Taneb: there are scores of modal logics depending on which axioms you accept, though
20:22:11 <Taneb> I'm trying to remain as general and sweeping as possible
20:22:36 <oerjan> that just means you take one with few axioms
20:23:05 <Taneb> Yeah, I'm avoiding p -> □p
20:23:36 <Taneb> p -> ◇p is okay, though
20:24:12 <Taneb> I'm making my own logic
20:25:16 <Taneb> Wait, p -> □p is an axiom anyway
20:25:27 <Taneb> SO NECESSITY IS A COMONAD, POSSIBILITY IS A MONAD
20:25:43 <Taneb> (in some modal logics)
20:26:35 <oerjan> disturbingly, intuitionistic modal logic is a red link in wp
20:27:15 <Taneb> Heck, in any normal modal logic, Necessity is an applicative
20:28:04 <oerjan> you don't want to use a classical logic as basis unless you have continuations
20:28:25 <Taneb> Pierce's law, right?
20:35:00 <elliott> hmm, with Pierce's law as call/cc, you get LEM saying it's either true or false (doesn't matter which) and if you ever prove it wrong and prove a contradiction, that ends up calling the continuation and backtracking, right?
20:37:04 <Taneb> LEM's x | x, right?
20:38:02 <oerjan> callCC (\c -> Right (\x -> c (Left x)))
20:38:58 <oerjan> :t callCC (\c -> return $ Right (\x -> c (Left x)))
20:38:59 <lambdabot> forall b (m :: * -> *) a. (MonadCont m) => m (Either a (a -> m b))
20:40:30 <elliott> > let lem = callCC (\c -> return $ Right (\x -> c (Left x))) in runCont (do { x <- lem; case x of Left a -> return a; Right f -> f (42 :: Int)) id
20:40:31 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `)'
20:40:35 <elliott> > let lem = callCC (\c -> return $ Right (\x -> c (Left x))) in runCont (do { x <- lem; case x of Left a -> return a; Right f -> f (42 :: Int) }) id
20:41:04 <elliott> you go "aha, you think it's uninhabited, but I have an inhabitant *right here*!" and it steals your example and goes back in time and uses it as a proof of inhabitation
20:42:12 <zzo38> I have done something like this: class Classical x where { lem :: Either x (Not x); };
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20:45:29 <oerjan> elliott: btw you don't need the {} if you have () around the do itself.
20:45:45 <elliott> was more for my own benefit, though :P
20:47:01 <oerjan> it's basically only used to find out where the do block ends, and if there's a delimiter just after that cannot be matched inside the do, then you don't need the {}
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21:21:17 <Sgeo_> Codeeval supports Clojure
21:21:20 <Sgeo_> I am a happy person now
21:21:25 <Sgeo_> I just need to learn Clojure
21:23:20 <nortti_> isn't Clojure some kind of lisp ran inside JVM?
21:24:13 -!- quintopia has set topic: raking | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
21:25:51 <oerjan> no, it can't be ran, only run
21:27:46 <nortti_> wouldn't that rock crush you?
21:30:45 <oerjan> why thank you, i need some peaceful rest
21:33:28 <mroman> on a side note: Doesn't haskell break RT anyway?
21:33:33 <oerjan> gnt, brklfnd mgrvgrvladje
21:34:04 <kmc> aren't potatoes some kind of tuber?
21:34:06 <oerjan> mroman: guess why it has "unsafe"
21:34:31 <kmc> mroman: you just need to ignore unsafePerformIO whenever it is convenient to your argument to do so
21:35:21 <kmc> ditto any of a dozen other features
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22:27:23 <nortti_> which one should I try to port to my own processor architecture: MINIX 1.5, MINIX 2 or 2.11BSD
22:36:06 <Phantom_Hoover> I am crouching on a sofa on which two enemies are also sitting.
22:36:21 <ion> I’ve bought the DE series, but haven’t got around to trying it yet.
22:36:41 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: :3
22:37:14 <kmc> my favorite thing about original Deus Ex is that you could heal a shotgun wound to the chest by eating 50 bags of potato chips
22:37:18 <Phantom_Hoover> One of them looked up from the handheld game he was playing, glanced at me for a second, then looked back down.
22:37:49 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, ah, see, Jensen doesn't faff around with that; he just stuffs his face with Mars Bars so he can punch people.
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22:45:22 <Phantom_Hoover> ion, DX is good, but it's probably best to start with HR because DX is very... 90s.
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23:01:39 <ion> phantom_hoover: I don’t really mind old games being… old. :-) I’ve been playing Fallout 1 recently.
23:01:55 <ion> kmc: Just like in real life!
23:02:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, but FPSes are more reflexive than turn-based RPGs, so the quirks in the interface are more offputting.
23:02:57 <Phantom_Hoover> It doesn't use r for reload, for instance, unlike basically every other FPS today.
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23:29:46 <kmc> hm should i play Fallout n, n < 3?
23:29:57 <kmc> i sort of got one of them working in Wine once
23:32:55 <zzo38> If n=base of natural logatithms then yes try
23:39:01 <ion> AngryJoe Plays Steel Battalion Kinect http://youtu.be/VxKRBUzElTU?t=5m45s
23:39:35 <ion> kmc: I’ve liked it. The UI is rather horrible and the 640×480 resolution is annoying, but the game is good despite that.
23:41:30 <kmc> it's all turn-based right?
23:48:12 <ion> The combat is, yeah.
23:48:46 <ion> Hmm. I should try one of the resolution-enhancing patches again now that i’ve switched GPUs.
23:49:04 <ion> The last time anything beyond the default 640×480 was unplayably slow.
23:51:05 <kmc> do those come with high res textures and such?
23:51:30 <ion> Nope, you just get to see more than a tiny window to the map.
23:51:56 <Phantom_Hoover> "Since when was Sherlock Holmes a goddamn emo druggie obsessed with death?" -- a person
23:52:11 <Phantom_Hoover> this is so funny if you've read the sherlock holmes stories
23:52:52 <ion> kmc: The “FIXT” patch for Fallout is recommended.
00:08:02 <zzo38> "Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of truth and knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods." -- Albert Einstein
00:16:44 <Vorpal> <ion> AngryJoe Plays Steel Battalion Kinect http://youtu.be/VxKRBUzElTU?t=5m45s <-- hm that is old
00:16:52 <Vorpal> I think I watched it last week or so?
00:17:03 <Vorpal> (I subscribe to that channel, it can be quite amusing)
00:17:50 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, where was that quote from?
00:18:21 <Vorpal> and yes it is funny. I'm not sure about the emo part, but other than that it is spot on
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02:21:43 <elliott> @ask ais523 actually, how can you use "1" in your presentation if you're using a semigroup? they don't have an identity
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02:22:47 <shachaf> elliott: Did you get the hblunmbndle?
02:24:25 <elliott> I haven't played any of the games yet.
02:25:30 <shachaf> I didn't ask if the games were good. :-(
02:25:37 <shachaf> (You haven't played Braid?)
02:27:39 <ion> It’s probably the greatest bundle so far.
02:29:10 <elliott> I haven't played *any* Bundle game.
02:29:12 <elliott> Yet I've bought most of them.
02:29:14 <elliott> Except for the crappy ones.
02:29:20 <shachaf> elliott: You ought to try Braid!
02:29:26 <elliott> (The Android one and some of the developer-specific ones and the Botanica one.)
02:29:42 <ion> I didn’t try Braid yet, but it seems interesting.
02:29:45 <shachaf> kmc: Right? I need some moralizing here.
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03:51:01 <HackEgo> 471) <fungot> tswett: last argument must be a cub scout!! have you made your money-drop today??
03:51:27 <elliott> That may be the best quote.
03:54:30 <elliott> copumpkin: tomodo is fax, right?
03:54:57 <copumpkin> I've guessed that before, but I dunno
03:55:03 <copumpkin> sounds a lot more depressed than fax ever did
03:57:25 <elliott> shachaf: A thing that lets you send documents through the telephone.
03:57:50 <lambdabot> let w(p,q)i=(p*i+1,q*i);d%(p,q)=p*d`div`q;(x:y:s)^d|d%y>d%x=s^d|0<1=mod(d%x)10:s^(10*d)in 2:scanl w(1,1)[1..]^10>>=show
03:58:14 <shachaf> > let w(p,q)i=(p*i+1,q*i);d%(p,q)=p*d`div`q;(x:y:s)^d|d%y>d%x=s^d|0<1=mod(d%x)10:s^(10*d)in 2:scanl w(1,1)[1..]^10>>=show
03:58:15 <lambdabot> "27182818284590452353602874713526624977572470936999595749669676277240766303...
03:59:05 <Sgeo_> I'm tempted to implement Lenses in Clojure
03:59:23 <kmc> has it been done?
03:59:38 <copumpkin> shachaf: a recurring character who shares some characteristics with tomodo, and also changes nick every so often
04:00:42 <elliott> copumpkin: (I think shachaf knows who fax is.)
04:02:01 <kmc> i would suspect it's been done
04:02:14 <kmc> which doesn't mean you shouldn't do it
04:02:22 <kmc> that never stopped anyone from writing a lenses library in haskell, either :)
04:02:32 <kmc> have you used Clojure much?
04:05:05 <Sgeo_> Need an example of useful Categories for #clojure
04:05:10 <Sgeo_> I mentioned rotations
04:05:15 <Sgeo_> And they're not going to know what arrows are
04:05:28 <Sgeo_> (I want to illustrate why comp should be general)
04:12:26 -!- MDude has changed nick to MSleep.
04:15:23 <Sgeo_> ....I am an idiot.
04:16:16 <Sgeo_> I thought map was supposed to be general on the first argument. Because I am a derp.
04:16:22 <Sgeo_> I think I was thinking of return.
04:16:24 <monqy> what does that mean
04:16:41 <Sgeo_> As in, map's first argument could be more than just a function
04:17:44 <kmc> thlambdabot
04:19:04 <kmc> "hey here's this great interactive tool for learning Haskell! except we've filled it with useless nonstandard behavior for the sake of what amounts to an inside joke."
04:19:19 <kmc> from the right perspective this is quite a shitty thing to do
04:19:43 <shachaf> kmc: Hey, we're not in #haskell here.
04:19:43 <kmc> one of the things that wore me out in #haskell was constantly having to explain these aberrations
04:19:52 <elliott> cale's view has always been that it's not a pedagogical tool so it's kind of disingenuous to argue along those lines
04:19:54 <ion> “thambdabot”
04:20:09 <kmc> elliott: well, ok, but then people should stop advancing it as a pedagogical tool
04:20:17 <shachaf> elliott: Is #haskell a pedagogical channel?
04:20:28 <kmc> i would rather have the pedagogical tool than the toy, personally
04:20:32 <kmc> given the current channel composition
04:20:52 <shachaf> Peaker was saying something along similar lines.
04:21:08 <kmc> certainly the number of confused beginners has gone up since the channel was founded
04:22:01 <kmc> there are multiple ways to solve this problem, but in the absence of consensus on a solution, the status quo sucks
04:22:43 <kmc> what was Peaker saying?
04:22:51 <elliott> peaker says lots of things!!
04:22:54 <shachaf> That (.) should be (.) instead of fmap.
04:23:09 <shachaf> Because it just confuses people and makes it more annoying to explain things otherwise.
04:24:15 * kmc gets bitter
04:24:17 <zzo38> They should use Category..
04:27:10 <elliott> god bless you kmc but i have never seen you say a single thing about #haskell i would not classify as bitter :P
04:27:16 <shachaf> elliott: As in "a regular thing".
04:27:31 <shachaf> kmc gets bitter every day at noon and stays bitter until ~04:00 the next day.
04:27:41 <kmc> it comes and goes
04:27:49 <kmc> elliott: you must have ignored all the nice things I said about #haskell in #haskell, then
04:28:10 <shachaf> #haskell has a lot of nice things to say about itself.
04:28:14 <kmc> and i still have many nice things to say about it
04:28:26 <kmc> the people are by and large friendly and well-intentioned
04:28:37 <kmc> it's still the friendliest language channel I've seen, by far
04:28:40 <kmc> certainly for being that huge
04:28:53 <monqy> sounds like a nice place
04:29:07 <elliott> The best langauage channel is #monqys-crawl.
04:29:14 <kmc> to some extent I think the friendliness is a problem
04:29:21 <kmc> but it certainly is a virtue even if it has some negative consequences as well
04:30:04 <kmc> also the people there are fucking smart
04:30:14 <elliott> except for the ones that aren't
04:30:15 <monqy> even the ones that aren't ??
04:30:19 <kmc> and everyone really seems to like learning
04:30:24 <elliott> and who are indistinguishable to most people
04:30:30 <zzo38> It looks like many of them cannot answer my questions though
04:30:37 <kmc> shrug, i never got a feeling from one of the regulars that "this person is an idiot and needs to stfu"
04:30:41 <monqy> zzo38: at leat they're friendly about it !
04:30:42 <kmc> of course maybe this means I was the dumbest regular
04:30:44 <elliott> which means you have to come up with new and exciting ways to say "you're incompetent; stop misleading the newbies"
04:30:44 <monqy> zzo38: or so I hear
04:30:48 <elliott> without actually saying it
04:30:53 <elliott> kmc: well, they don't have to be regular.
04:31:07 <elliott> kmc: (I do get such a feeling from one or two. but I think they only became regular as you left.)
04:31:08 <kmc> elliott: people have explanations i disagree with, and can argue against, but I wouldn't go so far as to insult their intelligence
04:31:20 <elliott> by "incompetent" I mean strictly in the context of their advice
04:31:29 <elliott> but yes, it's impolite, that's why you don't say it :P
04:31:56 <kmc> (and by "regulars" i'm of course ignoring a few perennial helpless beginners)
04:32:16 <elliott> kmc: have i linked you to the Monad page on haskellwiki
04:32:32 <elliott> (I like how right as copumpkin gets dragged back the channel goes into full on meta-Haskell mode.)
04:32:52 <elliott> kmc: Did you know the author of the awful parts of that page once downvoted me on Stack Overflow?
04:33:30 <kmc> dragged back?
04:33:35 <kmc> is copumpkin punting #haskell as well?
04:33:46 <elliott> shachaf conspicuously said HEY COPUMPKIN DID YOU LEFT #ESOTERIC in -blah.
04:33:57 <copumpkin> I don't really pay much attention to #haskell these days
04:34:00 <elliott> and copumpkin was all OH HA HA I HATE YOU GUYS SO MUCH UURGH BUT I'LL PRETEND I JUST FORGOT
04:34:01 <kmc> everyone knows #esoteric is the real #haskell-blah
04:34:16 <kmc> you must have better self control than me
04:35:15 <zzo38> I do not know if mathematicians normally call the Finalize moand and the Initialize comonad something different, so I just called them by these names.
04:35:36 <kmc> if mathematicians call them something different, it's probably something dumb
04:35:55 <kmc> oh "dragged back to #esoteric" i see
04:36:02 <kmc> it's my fault we went all meta :/
04:36:15 <kmc> i will claim shachaf trolld me
04:36:22 <zzo38> kmc: Something dumb? Why do you think that?
04:36:28 <elliott> kmc: The term is "pronked".
04:36:40 <shachaf> kmc: "sry 4 trollding u :'("
04:36:46 <zzo38> I do not even know how commonly mathematicians would deal with these monad/comonad though
04:36:55 <elliott> (As in "shachaf thoroughly hecked my aim there".)
04:37:34 <zzo38> But they are valid for any category having a final/initial object
04:38:28 <elliott> SHIFTING INTO CHANNEL MODE #4: elliott asking whether he should sleep at unreasonable hours
04:39:00 <shachaf> elliott: You must sleep before the end of this hour.
04:39:13 <zzo38> Why do you ask other people if you want to sleep?
04:39:28 <shachaf> zzo38: He asks other people whether he *should* sleep.
04:42:34 <pikhq_> The answer is usually "yes".
04:42:48 <pikhq_> He also then ignores the answer, and often asks again.
04:43:12 <elliott> nobody has answered yet this time though
04:44:02 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.28315
04:44:26 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.21703
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05:44:31 <HackEgo> 778) <Sgeo_> Why does CL get called functional? <oerjan> it's sort of like how you call ancient greece democratic.
06:03:24 <kmc> don't tell the CL people that CL is functional
06:03:27 <kmc> they have that
06:25:31 <zzo38> What I mean by Finalize is the endofunctor mapping all objects to the final object; it should be easy to see how this is a monad.
06:25:54 <zzo38> There is only one possibility!
06:33:00 <zzo38> quintopia: Do you understand what I am meaning?
06:33:26 <quintopia> i dont even know what monads are silly
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06:34:17 <zzo38> Do you know what a category is (in category theory)?
06:34:39 <zzo38> Taneb: No, I mean quintopia, but you are free to answer if you wish
06:35:11 <Taneb> It's a bunch of elements with morphisms between various elements where composing morphisms is possible, also there is an identity morphism
06:35:37 <zzo38> Taneb: Yes, and composition is associative
06:36:51 <zzo38> There is an identity morphism for each object, which is identity for the composition operator, and a morphism (X -> Y) and (Y -> Z) can be composed to (X -> Z) (although by standard mathematical notation, the (Y -> Z) goes on the left)
06:37:42 <quintopia> eh feel free to use the concatenative style
06:39:53 <zzo38> So the object X identity morphism will be from X to X where id . f = f . id = f if f has the correct object it is from/to, and . means composition.
06:40:12 <zzo38> Any monoid forms a category with one object.
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07:58:06 <Sgeo_> <Raynes> borkdude: It's hard (nearly impossible) to, for example, use SLIME with both Clojure and Common Lisp. I suppose it's because you use an ancient version of SLIME with Clojure because it's impossible to follow SLIME development because they never release anything.
08:06:01 <Sgeo_> Taneb, read the line from Raynes
08:06:19 <Taneb> I have done, and do not realise the significance of it
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08:06:39 <Sgeo_> The significance is it's harder for me to play with both Common Lisp and Clojure
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09:31:36 <fungot> Taneb: bit 4 off, and parameters associated with them. the scale selected is concert pitch, in order to change the routine
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11:31:41 <Taneb> In my new school timetable, on Fridays I alternate between two classrooms.
11:31:52 <Taneb> On the second floor.
11:31:56 <Taneb> Of two different buildings
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11:57:14 <Taneb> S5 Modal Logic is... I think it's a coapplicative, if that's a thing that makes sense to me
11:59:37 <Taneb> It has (<*>) and extract
12:00:48 <Taneb> No wait, it's an applicative comonad
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12:08:34 <ion> Wow http://youtu.be/p08_KlTKP50
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12:52:55 <Taneb> I find it weird that some monads are comonad
12:53:08 <Taneb> I guess I don't have a sufficient idea of catergoric dual
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14:06:42 <Labbekak> > [(x, y)|x<-[1..3], y<-[4..6]]
14:06:43 <lambdabot> [(1,4),(1,5),(1,6),(2,4),(2,5),(2,6),(3,4),(3,5),(3,6)]
14:08:22 <Labbekak> [[x*y|y<-[1..x]]|x <- [1..10]]
14:08:29 <Labbekak> > [[x*y|y<-[1..x]]|x <- [1..10]]
14:08:30 <lambdabot> [[1],[2,4],[3,6,9],[4,8,12,16],[5,10,15,20,25],[6,12,18,24,30,36],[7,14,21,...
14:09:58 <Labbekak> > [[x*y|y<-[1..10]]|x <- [1..10]]
14:09:59 <lambdabot> [[1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10],[2,4,6,8,10,12,14,16,18,20],[3,6,9,12,15,18,21,24,2...
14:10:14 <Labbekak> > [[x*y|y<-[1..3]]|x <- [1..3]]
14:12:05 <Labbekak> > [[x`max`y|y<-[1..3]]|x <- [1..3]]
14:12:24 <Labbekak> > [[x`min`y|y<-[1..3]]|x <- [1..3]]
14:12:59 <Labbekak> > [[(x`min`y) * (x`max`y)|y<-[1..3]]|x <- [1..3]]
14:14:03 -!- MSleep has changed nick to MDude.
14:19:52 <Labbekak> > [[[x*y*z|z<-[1..3]]|y<-[1..3]]|x<-[1..3]]
14:19:53 <lambdabot> [[[1,2,3],[2,4,6],[3,6,9]],[[2,4,6],[4,8,12],[6,12,18]],[[3,6,9],[6,12,18],...
14:20:32 <Labbekak> how to generalize that to n dimensions?
14:38:28 <coppro> write it explicitly as a monad
14:38:42 <coppro> once you have the monadic construction, then you just fold over the dimentions
14:45:05 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
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15:26:57 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=User:Julianc&curid=8485&diff=32739&oldid=32738 hmm...
15:26:57 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
15:27:15 <Taneb> That warrents a warning?
15:31:15 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=User:Julianc&diff=next&oldid=32739 not sure what the nowiki here is meant to accomplish :P
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15:56:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Wow, that reddit nuclear coverup guy went full-on conspiracy nut.
15:57:57 <Phantom_Hoover> I think his current theory is that the government are somehow covering up a massive, end-of-the-world solar flare in spite of the fact that he's used public solar flare data to corroborate his claims.
15:58:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Also that the magnetic poles started switching overnight and the magnetosphere is now gone.
16:04:03 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
16:04:56 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm fairly sure the headphone port of this computer is broken.
16:39:51 <Taneb> Is it due to solar flares covered up by the government
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17:19:37 <Taneb> Does codo notation even make sense?
17:20:47 <elliott> flip extend :: w a -> (w a -> b) -> w b
17:20:58 <elliott> codo { x <- w; ... } where
17:21:17 <elliott> codo { x <- w; ... } :: w b
17:21:25 <elliott> not sure how it would chain, though
17:21:30 <elliott> oh, it'd just be left-associative
17:21:41 <Taneb> I'm gonna have dinner now, bye
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17:57:23 <elliott> Vorpal: (spoiler it's actually the last one)
17:57:32 <Vorpal> elliott, I realised that
18:02:27 <elliott> fizzie: You know the IPv6 2001: stuff?
18:02:30 <elliott> Was that assigned in 2001?
18:04:32 <Vorpal> I don't think all of 2001: is assigned, and the (current) RFC that describes that prefix is from 2006.
18:05:08 <Vorpal> and the possibly first one is from 2000
18:05:17 <elliott> I mean the 2001 IPv4 stuff.
18:05:29 <elliott> I just always read it as a year. :p
18:06:06 <elliott> People have IPv6 IPs that start with 2001: a lot because they don't have native IPv6.
18:06:16 <Vorpal> well yeah, I have that
18:07:02 -!- Taneb has joined.
18:14:21 <elliott> I just mashed keys randomly. Could have turned out worse.
18:15:37 <Taneb> You have a plus-or-minus key?
18:15:52 <Taneb> Laptop keyboard :/
18:16:05 <Vorpal> Taneb, for me ± is altgr-'
18:16:19 <Vorpal> where ' is the dead key over é
18:16:26 <Vorpal> (it is next to backspace)
18:17:13 <Taneb> @łe¶ŧ←↓↓→øþßðđŋħjĸł«»¢“”nµ···
18:17:18 <Vorpal> (I did that using compose, no idea if it can be done with altgr)
18:18:24 <Vorpal> Taneb, that gives me »
18:18:49 <Taneb> Vorpal, I'd assume you're not on a British keyboard
18:19:28 <Vorpal> Taneb, but a lot of the altgr keys have the same positional mapping though. like ← being altgr-y
18:20:23 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
18:20:31 <elliott> Don`t you love it when people use the backtick as an apo`strophe?
18:20:54 <Vorpal> ¬ was altgr-shift-<same key I had ± on>
18:21:18 <Vorpal> well guess it isn't for you
18:21:28 <Vorpal> Taneb, try the key next to backspace then
18:21:42 <Vorpal> Taneb, that altgr-9 is the only place I have ] :P
18:21:45 <Taneb> Ḑoesn't do anything
18:21:59 <Vorpal> it combined with the D
18:22:06 <Vorpal> Taneb, it is a dead char
18:22:36 <Vorpal> Taneb, I couldn't even do that. my = is on shift-0
18:22:52 <Vorpal> and altgr-shift-0 yields °
18:23:22 <Vorpal> top row with altgr-shift: ¾¹²³¼¢⅝÷«»°¿¬
18:23:51 <Vorpal> and top row with just altgr: ¶¡@£$€¥{[]}\±
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18:24:16 <Vorpal> Taneb, that first char seems redundant there
18:24:39 <Taneb> Especially as I've never used it?
18:24:43 <olsner> Vorpal: 5/8 is what comes between between 1/2 and 3/4
18:24:55 <Vorpal> Taneb, on UK keyboard, what is the key to the left of 1?
18:25:04 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ,: not found
18:25:23 <Vorpal> Taneb, for me it is § and ½ if shifted
18:25:25 <Taneb> With a | printed on it
18:26:17 <Taneb> I've got a Windows keyboard
18:26:17 <olsner> where is tilde on those keyboards?
18:26:20 <Vorpal> I'm on a thinkpad (running linux)
18:26:31 <elliott> olsner: to the left of z is ` (~ shifted)
18:26:31 <Vorpal> for me that is shift-3
18:26:43 <Vorpal> elliott, is that a ` as a dead key?
18:26:45 <Taneb> Betreen ' and return
18:26:59 <elliott> Vorpal: no use for that for UK English speakers
18:27:06 <Vorpal> Taneb, oh right, where I have ä then
18:27:14 <elliott> well that's not really truw
18:27:22 <Vorpal> elliott, you might want to write French? Or loan words?
18:27:28 <elliott> is there anything with an ` accent in UK English?
18:27:33 <elliott> "café"'s is the wrong way around
18:27:47 <olsner> Vorpal: you can just remove all accents when writing stuff in english
18:27:49 <elliott> Vorpal: still, that's what the alt stuff is for
18:27:51 <elliott> and most people won't bother with it
18:27:55 <elliott> and dead keys are kind of confusing
18:28:29 <Vorpal> elliott, I mean I have ^ as a dead key, yet I don't know any Swedish word with that. There are a /handful/ of words with é. Can't think of any with ` though.
18:28:45 <Vorpal> <elliott> and dead keys are kind of confusing <-- not if you are used to them?
18:29:00 <elliott> Nothing's confusing if you're used to it.
18:29:02 <Taneb> Not using accents makes pate harder to understands
18:29:16 -!- oonbotti has joined.
18:29:21 <olsner> you should just spell it patay
18:29:55 <Taneb> But that makes its etymological relation with the word "paste" less clear!
18:30:46 <Taneb> But that's something else!
18:30:48 <Vorpal> hm is it worth learning Dvorak?
18:30:59 <Taneb> Better to lean Dvorak than to learn Romulan!
18:30:59 <olsner> in swedish it's almost called pastay
18:31:35 <Taneb> Vorpal, do you own a keyboard with Dvorak stickers?
18:31:39 <elliott> Or Colemak, if you want to be cool, like Deewiant.
18:31:57 <Taneb> Get one as cheap as possible for learning with
18:32:13 <Vorpal> elliott, how much does it actually help unless you are writing books though?
18:32:30 <Vorpal> When programming there is a lot more down time spent thinking about the code anyway
18:32:31 <Taneb> It makes keyboard shortcuts a lot more awkward
18:32:39 <elliott> Vorpal: You might see a minor increase in typing speed, but it probably doesn't matter much. The real reason to learn such an alternate layout is ergonomics.
18:32:58 <elliott> Taneb: If you're looking at the keyboard, you're doing it wrong.
18:33:00 <Vorpal> elliott, hm true. How much does it help there then.
18:33:30 -!- AnotherTest has left.
18:33:32 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, more stuff is on the home row and so on. Colemak's site has some statistics: http://colemak.com/wiki/index.php?title=Ergonomic
18:33:49 <Vorpal> surely that depends on which language you write in
18:34:21 <Vorpal> Colemak places the 10 most common letters of English and Backspace on the home row. <-- backspace on home row? Uh, that means a rather small key next to enter then or something?
18:34:28 <elliott> Well, Colemak is an English layout. I'm sure there is a Swedish variation.
18:34:33 <elliott> But I suspect the letter frequencies are comparable.
18:34:41 <elliott> Vorpal: Caps Lock is backspace, I think.
18:34:44 <elliott> At least Deewiant maps it like that.
18:34:47 <Taneb> elliott, if you're learning, stickers help
18:34:54 <elliott> (It's a better use for Caps Lock than Ctrl, that's for sure.)
18:35:10 <elliott> Taneb: They'll teach you how to type on a keyboard while staring at it.
18:35:11 <Deewiant> elliott: IIRC in Colemak both backspace and caps lock are backspace. I swapped them instead.
18:35:27 <elliott> Taneb: If you already know how to touch-type in general, you shouldn't have to start from scratch with training wheels.
18:35:45 <elliott> Deewiant: How do you pronounce "Deewiant"?
18:35:50 <elliott> Vorpal: "Multilingual – Allows to type in over 40 languages and to type various symbols, e.g. "pâté", "mañana", €, em-dash, non-breaking space."
18:35:56 <elliott> http://colemak.com/wiki/index.php?title=Multilingual#Swedish_.28Svenska.29
18:36:13 <Taneb> elliott, if you haven't learnt, you may not be able to even log in, without stickers or some sort of guide
18:36:14 <Deewiant> elliott: Up to you whether it's like "deviant" or with a w sound instead of v.
18:36:20 <elliott> Vorpal: There's also this https://gist.github.com/1293692 thing.
18:36:27 <Vorpal> elliott, doing that altgr thingy sounds a bit painful (in the first link)
18:36:31 <Deewiant> Although I guess it's (understandably) settled on the w sound.
18:36:31 <elliott> Vorpal: With Dvorak there's specific variants for each language.
18:36:34 <Vorpal> they are after all really common letters
18:36:42 <elliott> Deewiant: It's neither for me; I meant you specifically.
18:37:29 <elliott> Deewiant: I pronounce it as "dew" from "morning dew" + "iant" from "deviant".
18:37:38 <Deewiant> elliott: In an English context, nowadays, like "deviant" but with a w sound.
18:38:22 <elliott> How do you pronounce Sgeo_,.
18:39:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No, with normal people methods.
18:39:45 <Taneb> Aww, I just say ess-geo
18:40:08 <Phantom_Hoover> (I did not waste all that time learning the IPA for nothing.)
18:40:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: HOW DO YOU PRONOUNCE SGEO IN NORMAL PEOPLE LANGUAGE
18:40:21 <Taneb> I pronounce Phantom_Hoover "fan-tom who ver"
18:41:08 <nortti> how is my ick pronounced?
18:41:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: THAT'S JUST WRONG.
18:41:27 <elliott> nortti: Like "naughty" except more tti.
18:41:35 <Taneb> "I like neither coffee nor tea"
18:41:59 <Sgeo_> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/84/Sgeoct.wav
18:42:05 <Sgeo_> This is almost how I pronounce it
18:42:18 <Vorpal> nortti, I pronounce it in Swedish with a slight Italian twist to it.
18:42:45 <Sgeo_> Except I tend to use a u
18:42:46 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, why is that on wikimedia!?
18:42:59 <elliott> Sgeo_: I pronounce it like that, but it's "ay" rather than "ee".
18:43:15 <elliott> That one sounds kidn of like "ski-oh". :P
18:43:21 <Sgeo_> Vorpal, I put it there a long time ago
18:43:30 -!- Sgeo_ has changed nick to Sqeo.
18:44:07 <Sqeo> Vorpal, the .wav sounds like it
18:44:12 <Sqeo> it's saying sqeo
18:44:20 <Vorpal> can't listen to it atm.
18:44:27 <Taneb> Who do you lot pronounce Taneb?
18:44:54 <elliott> Sqeo: No, that's definitely a "g".
18:45:33 <elliott> "Ngevd" is more interesting to pronounce.
18:45:42 <Vorpal> Taneb, I pronounce the Ta bit like in the Swedish word Tagg. The rest like in English. (Not that it tells you much)
18:45:57 <Sqeo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Sgeo
18:46:29 <elliott> I recorded me saying a bunch of names but I sound like an idiot so you ca't hear it. SORRY.
18:46:44 <Vorpal> elliott, not used to hearing your own voice?
18:46:50 <elliott> It sounds stupider in a computer but.
18:47:04 <Phantom_Hoover> (I sound like a total prat, which is why I never listen to my own voice.)
18:47:23 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, isn't that because you are one?
18:47:31 <Taneb> Can someone give a list of names, and at some point I'll record me saying them
18:48:06 <Vorpal> Taneb, what if I give you one with non English letters in it?
18:48:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, brb, jumping into the sea to put out that sick burn.
18:48:17 <olsner> I've been planning on recording my voice a lot, getting over the discomfort of hearing my voice, and use the recordings to perfect various accents I will find useful in my career as a secret agent
18:48:19 <Taneb> Are they still Latin letters?
18:48:34 <elliott> OK Deewiant Sgeo Taneb Ngevd Phantom_Hoover Vorpal ais523: http://ompldr.org/vZThkag/Audio%20Recording%208.m4a
18:49:10 <elliott> Also I kind of fumbled "Vorpal" there.
18:49:15 <Taneb> I have no headphones and lose connection outside my living room
18:49:25 <Vorpal> elliott, that is your voice? XD
18:49:26 <elliott> Taneb: Your family will love hearing your name!
18:49:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Don't worry one day the helium feed to your throat will stop working.
18:49:37 <Vorpal> elliott, no it is better than what I imagined
18:49:38 * Sqeo doesn't believe that that's elliott's voice.
18:49:51 <Taneb> elliott, my name is neither Taneb nor Ngevd nor Vorpal
18:50:01 <elliott> If it helps, I usually sound more monotone than that!
18:50:05 <Vorpal> Taneb, I guess it is Nathan?
18:50:09 <Phantom_Hoover> I have the Posh Edinburgh Accent which makes me want to punch anyone else who has it.
18:50:19 <Taneb> YOU GUESS CORRECTLY, Vorpal
18:50:26 <elliott> Taneb: Download it, leave living room, play it, return.
18:50:26 <Vorpal> Taneb, BY THE POWER OF WHOIS
18:50:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Record yourself saying my name!!!!
18:50:49 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you should record yourself then
18:50:53 <olsner> what, there are people who have non-lies in their whois?
18:51:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Hahahah I don't have a micro-- oh shit I do these days.
18:51:30 <Vorpal> I don't have a working mic sadly
18:51:37 <Sqeo> elliott, it sounds like a computer.
18:51:47 <elliott> Sqeo: You realise I am a computer, right?
18:52:35 <Vorpal> elliott, I imagined your voice to be sharp and screechy kind of. So my statement about that being your voice wasn't rude, it should be considered positive instead.
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18:53:12 <elliott> Sqeo: You're right, I used text to speech. Here's the REAL me:
18:53:28 <Vorpal> elliott, your recording setup had some issues with skipping too. Not sure how that happened when recording audio...
18:53:33 <elliott> http://ompldr.org/vZThkbw/names.aiff
18:53:45 <elliott> Vorpal: No skips when I play it back.
18:53:55 <elliott> Problem exists between Vorpal's network connection and ears.
18:54:06 <Vorpal> strange, they are in the same place every time
18:54:16 <elliott> Maybe I'm just not hearing them.
18:54:36 <Vorpal> some pops and/or skips
18:54:50 <Vorpal> elliott, I possibly blame pulseaudio then
18:55:01 <elliott> oerjan: Do you want me to record how I butcher your name???
18:55:04 <Vorpal> anyway http://ompldr.org/vZThkbw/names.aiff gives me [0x7f4f9c025c88] main decoder error: no suitable decoder module for fourcc `undf'.
18:55:11 <oerjan> elliott: you already did once
18:55:18 -!- oerjan has quit (Client Quit).
18:55:19 <elliott> oerjan: Wasn't that me attempting to get it right?
18:55:22 <olsner> Vorpal: you're doing it wrong
18:55:23 <Vorpal> elliott, so whatever that is I can't play it
18:55:31 <elliott> Vorpal: It's the OS X text-to-speech engine saying the same names.
18:55:43 <Vorpal> elliott, right, I wanted to listen to it though :P
18:55:54 <elliott> Vorpal: Try running flac on it.
18:55:54 <Taneb> I AM GOING TO RISK GOING INTO THE NEXT ROOM
18:56:09 <Vorpal> elliott, oh mplayer worked
18:56:30 <Vorpal> elliott, sounds a bit deeper than your voice, otherwise similar ;P
18:56:49 <elliott> ay-eyes five hundred twenty three.
18:56:49 <Vorpal> you are like that voice on a small dose of helium
18:57:00 <Taneb> Now to get my headset
18:58:10 <Phantom_Hoover> I just want to inform everyone that the correct pronunciation of Ngevd is ŋɛvd.
18:58:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Excuse me, it's how I pronounced it.
18:58:55 <elliott> The correct way is how I pronounce it.
18:59:01 <elliott> I don't know whether I pronounced it that way. Didn't you listen?
18:59:43 <elliott> I pronounced your name in it.
19:04:24 <olsner> no, it clearly starts with a ŋ
19:04:33 <Taneb> I've got a file, were do I put it?
19:04:38 <elliott> shachaf: <netogallo> So you can't do that if the monad isn't an instance of IO Monad, right?
19:05:13 <Taneb> http://ompldr.org/vZThkeQ/names.flac
19:06:00 <Taneb> I messed up Ngevd on account of having a sore throat
19:06:02 <elliott> I can't play FLAC here. :(
19:06:19 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
19:06:26 <nortti> Taneb: how quiet is that?
19:06:36 <Taneb> How quiet's quiet?
19:06:49 <Taneb> It's not especially loud
19:07:09 <elliott> Someone transcode that from FLAC for me. :p
19:07:13 <elliott> Or I guess I could download VLC.
19:07:15 <nortti> Taneb: I can't hear anything without turning all of my volume controls to max
19:07:34 <Taneb> THEN TURN THEM TO MAX
19:07:54 <Taneb> My mic was picking up a whole load of background
19:08:15 <nortti> Taneb: I still can't really hear what you are saying
19:08:46 <Taneb> I'll re-record louder in a more elliott-friendly format
19:09:00 <nortti> Taneb: when I turn my volumes to max I can hear that someone is speaking
19:09:18 <nortti> elliott: why not mplayer?
19:09:53 <elliott> I don't feel like remembering the arguments to amplify things.
19:11:29 <elliott> Taneb: You sound less like a computer than me.
19:11:39 <Taneb> That's because I am more man than machine
19:12:23 <Taneb> I'm so damn manly, I barely even count as a computer.
19:13:09 <Taneb> Simultaneously, I feel as if my throat is attempting to strangle me
19:13:52 <olsner> maybe it doesn't like that you're trying to breathe through it all the time
19:14:07 <olsner> would you like that? probably not...
19:14:56 <elliott> i breathe through olsner usually
19:14:59 <Phantom_Hoover> So VLC claims to have converted the file but is showing no evidence of having done so, for instance by creating a file in the new format.
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19:15:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I already played it, man.
19:15:44 -!- oonbotti has joined.
19:15:50 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean the file I made of me saying 'Ngevd' the right way.
19:16:16 <elliott> Just upload it in whatever format, man.
19:17:31 <elliott> hahahahaha are you transcoding from wma
19:17:38 <elliott> monqy: look at Phantom_Hoover.
19:17:59 -!- oonbotti has quit (Client Quit).
19:18:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Well I would have stopped if VLC didn't have the worst UI for transcoding.
19:19:43 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what about audacity? That is a good program. I think there is a windows version too?
19:20:04 <shachaf> instance IO Monad where monad = IO
19:22:11 <Taneb> I use the same sound for the sh and ch in shachaf
19:23:00 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, you're right
19:23:05 <Taneb> Your voice is awful
19:23:46 <elliott> shachaf: You should record yourself saying "Ngevd".
19:23:48 <Taneb> I have a well-regarded video blog
19:24:04 <Taneb> With 8 subscribers!
19:24:05 <shachaf> elliott: I've never said "Ngevd
19:24:12 <shachaf> "; why should I start for the sake of a recording?
19:24:31 <Taneb> You've answered your own question there
19:24:55 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, did you record any other name than that?
19:25:03 <Vorpal> also Taneb's recording was really quiet
19:25:29 <shachaf> elliott: Did you know I have a GitHub resository with SEVENTY-FIVE watchers.
19:25:43 <elliott> shachaf: I like how it is JavaScript!
19:26:15 <shachaf> Because if you want to be famous on GitHub, your best bet is to use JavaScript or Ruby.
19:28:11 <Taneb> All of my github repositories are in the top-ten most watched
19:28:16 <nortti> I have github reposity with 1 watchers
19:28:24 <Taneb> (technically true)
19:28:29 <shachaf> -- This interface is based on @String@, and is likely to behave
19:28:29 <shachaf> -- unpredictably on codepoints above 255. The @ByteString@-based
19:28:29 <shachaf> -- interface in "Acme.Strfry.ByteString" is recommended for serious use.
19:28:36 <shachaf> Wouldn't it be codepoints above 127?
19:28:59 <Taneb> If it was being compared to Text
19:29:02 <elliott> shachaf: I don't think so.
19:29:05 <shachaf> Well, I guess that depends on what withCString does.
19:29:12 <monqy> ive never said ngevd but in my head i pronounce it ŋɛvd except when i slip up and accidentally pronounce it something more like ŋɛvəd woops
19:29:14 <Taneb> It's being compared to ByteString, so I guess that it wants a string of bytes
19:29:25 <elliott> shachaf: Can you test what withCString does for me?
19:29:28 <monqy> my head is a scary place
19:29:29 <elliott> Then send a... pull requests.
19:29:37 <shachaf> Oh, looks like you're right.
19:29:42 <elliott> monqy: can i visit your head
19:29:59 <Taneb> i dont need another map of your head
19:30:03 <shachaf> λ> withCString "ellíott" peekCString
19:30:12 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Types.Int'
19:30:27 * Taneb quotes the titles of B-Sides by Alternative Rock groups
19:30:31 <shachaf> I wonder whether kmc knows this.
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19:31:00 <shachaf> elliott: Also that snippet there is probably undefined behavior or something.
19:32:14 <shachaf> http://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/7.4.1/html/users_guide/release-7-4-2.html
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19:34:12 <Taneb> Man, I haven't listened to this song in ages
19:34:26 <shachaf> strfry s = B.useAsCString s (c_strfry >=> B.packCString)
19:34:29 <Taneb> Probably because I don't really like it?
19:34:30 -!- Sqeo has changed nick to Sgeo.
19:34:36 <shachaf> elliott: Were you pleased to use >=> there?
19:34:42 <elliott> shachaf: I think I thought of you!
19:37:28 <Taneb> CAT PROGRAM IN HASKELL
19:37:49 <Taneb> main = sequence_ . iterate (getChar >=> putChar) $ return ()
19:38:26 <shachaf> elliott: LAZY I/O MONSTROSITY
19:38:26 <Taneb> OVERKILL IS THE BEST KIND OF KILL
19:38:27 <olsner> Taneb: that doesn't work anything at all like a cat
19:38:31 <elliott> main = getChar >>= putChar >> main -- since yours doesn't handle EOF
19:38:40 <shachaf> main = forever (getChar >>= putChar)
19:39:07 <Taneb> Just goes to show...
19:39:09 <Taneb> There's more than one way to skin a cat
19:40:01 <elliott> main=forever(getChar>>=putChar)`catch`\_->return()
19:40:37 <elliott> main=forever$try getChar>>=either(const$return())$(>>main).putChar
19:40:42 <elliott> :t forever$try getChar>>=either(const$return())$(>>main).putChar
19:40:47 <elliott> I guess "try" is only part of the new exception library.
19:41:11 <Taneb> main = forever (mfix (getChar >=> putChar))
19:42:04 <Taneb> Doesn't handle eof
19:42:40 <Taneb> :t (getChar >=> putChar, mfix (getChar >=> putChar), forever (getChar >=> putChar))
19:42:41 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `a -> m b'
19:42:41 <lambdabot> In the first argument of `(>=>)', namely `getChar'
19:42:47 <elliott> getChar >=> putChar doesn't even type.
19:42:49 <Taneb> :t (getChar >=> putChar, mfix (getChar >=> putChar), forever (mfix (getChar >=> putChar)))
19:42:50 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `a -> m b'
19:42:50 <lambdabot> In the first argument of `(>=>)', namely `getChar'
19:43:00 <Taneb> That's because I had a const in it
19:43:12 <Taneb> main = forever (mfix (const getChar >=> putChar))
19:43:32 <elliott> const x >=> y, aka x >>= y
19:43:38 <elliott> const x >=> y, aka const (x >>= y)
19:44:02 <Taneb> mfix . const may be like ID, I'm not sure
19:46:01 <Taneb> > fix . const $ "nepotism"
19:47:37 <Sgeo> Some code that I wrote some time ago to object to Clojure seems to just be saying "Clojure doesn't stop you from being stupid"
19:48:09 <Taneb> Overkill leads to obfuscation, which leads to FUN
19:48:39 <shachaf> elliott DOESN'T USE MONOSPACE FONTS FOR IRC
19:48:52 <shachaf> "true fax, from the tomodo department"
19:50:00 <shachaf> monqy: But did you know it before elliott told you?
19:50:36 <shachaf> before elliott was born :'(
19:51:02 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
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19:51:11 <shachaf> "i use irc with a variable width font" ———— elliott's first words
19:51:24 <Taneb> GOODNIGHT IF YOU CAN HEAR ME OUT THERE
19:51:28 <Sgeo> https://www.refheap.com/paste/4fd4fa18e4b0232cc152e706
19:51:45 <Sgeo> Me, maybe a year ago, objecting to Clojure not stopping people from being stupid
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19:54:56 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
20:01:47 <elliott> OK, that was ridiculous deja vu.
20:07:23 <Vorpal> also does Taneb have connection issues?
20:12:01 <elliott> shachaf: Is there something like Applicative that doesn't have ordering?
20:12:22 <elliott> I guess you could just say f <*> x === x <**> f.
20:12:25 <elliott> But that seems overly strong.
20:16:04 <copumpkin> well, when people talk about commutative monads
20:16:16 <copumpkin> I suppose you could talk about a commutative lax monoidal functor
20:16:22 <copumpkin> haven't quite thought what that would mean yet
20:16:28 <elliott> copumpkin: In this case I'm just wondering because HashMap has:
20:16:35 <elliott> traverseWithKey :: Applicative f => (k -> v1 -> f v2) -> HashMap k v1 -> f (HashMap k v2)
20:16:54 <elliott> which is a very nice function (you can implement, e.g. an efficient HashMap lens with it)
20:17:04 <elliott> but it also exposes the underlying ordering of the HashMap
20:17:09 <elliott> just wondering if you can get the same benefits without exposing that
20:17:23 <elliott> (You do the Lens by using Cont and breaking out with the value, and when you get resumed with the replacement value, returning it.)
20:17:34 <elliott> (For edwardk-style lenses.)
20:19:30 <elliott> Alternatively, can you define a variant of Cont that's a commutative applicative?
20:19:36 <elliott> I think possibly yes, but I'm not sure.
20:19:40 <elliott> (It'd have to be restricted somehow, of course.)
20:27:10 <elliott> An SO question from Jon Harrop tagged [haskell].
20:27:18 <elliott> shachaf: What are the chances this isn't some partisan trolling bullshit?
20:32:29 -!- ais523 has joined.
20:34:55 <Sgeo> I don't know if it's my imagination, or if my Nook is helping me read by forcing me not to skim
20:37:37 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
20:37:41 <lambdabot> elliott asked 18h 15m 58s ago: actually, how can you use "1" in your presentation if you're using a semigroup? they don't have an identity
20:37:48 <ais523> elliott: I'm using a semi/ring/
20:37:50 <ais523> they have two identities
20:38:10 <ais523> (and both addition and multiplication, which interact with 0 and 1 like you'd expect)
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21:35:05 <quintopia> what does <value optimized out> mean
21:35:23 <elliott> it means the value was optimised out
21:35:32 <elliott> i.e. the code was optimised to not need that value
21:36:03 <quintopia> so if i turn off all optimizations, i can find out what it is
21:37:04 <olsner> it means that you have a bug in your program
21:37:06 <olsner> (otherwise, why would you be using a debugger?)
21:37:14 <shachaf> kmc: I got a sign from GOD.
21:37:34 <quintopia> the bug being "it doesnt work and doesnt give me any indication of why"
21:37:57 * quintopia throws olsner at the problem, sees if he sticks
21:38:14 <nortti> tip: convert bug to other type of bug
21:38:27 <olsner> tip: redefine bug as feature
21:39:22 <nortti> olsner: do you mean the microsoft way of handling bugs?
21:39:38 <quintopia> elliott: guess what this new scoring system does? it epitomizes equality and fair play by giving all competitors a score of 0! no more squabbling about who is the best, and no more chaos on the hill. it's revolutionary!
21:40:30 <elliott> quintopia: That sounds kind of egalitarian.
21:40:36 <elliott> I would change your name and move to another country ASAP.
21:40:53 -!- quintopia has changed nick to aipotniuq.
21:41:01 <aipotniuq> sweden sure is nice this time of year
21:42:00 -!- aipotniuq has changed nick to quintopia.
21:56:22 -!- oklopol has joined.
21:56:33 <oklopol> push everything four salad salad
21:59:52 <oklopol> i can't sleep, whenever i close my eyes i start thinking about the ranks of countably converging cellular automata
22:05:36 <zzo38> shachaf: Sign from GOD? What kind of sign? Stop sign? Or the other sign?
22:05:45 <Vorpal> hm can CCDs degrade over time as to produce noisier images? When I compared a picture I took today and one I took ten years ago with the same camera under similar conditions the one I took today is significantly noiser. (Similar subjects too, large grey areas)
22:07:00 <Vorpal> both were taken with ISO 64. f/11, and similar times (1/500 and 1/450)
22:07:22 <zzo38> elliott: What other sign does shachaf get?
22:09:53 <shachaf> The Sign Panther also left me some signs.
22:10:08 <shachaf> LITTLE-KNOWN FACT: When I played _World of Goo_, I thought the signs were life by "The Sign Panther".
22:11:16 <zzo38> I know it is GOD's sign, but still that doesn't explain much.
22:11:18 <oklopol> but really they were death by him
22:11:45 <oklopol> and all the little goos when to gooey heaven
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22:54:30 <elliott> No don't play Portal 2 with PH he's awful.
22:55:00 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: OK, I'll play Portal 2 with you!
22:55:07 <shachaf> "i needed to go a while ago"
22:55:28 <zzo38> Do you know some things about 6502 programming, such as how I could add support for music subroutines to PPMCK?
22:55:39 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: Also, elliott said he wouldn't even get around to it if I did.
22:56:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I'll play Portal 2 with you N units of time before shachaf plays Portal 2 with you if shachaf gives me it.
22:57:21 <ais523> portal 2 has an achievement for completing the game, then playing co-op with someone who has never played co-op before (or completed the game before?)
22:57:31 <ais523> IIRC, it's set up so it's theoretically impossible for /everyone/ to get it
22:57:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover just doesn't have any friends
22:58:15 <elliott> shachaf: i'll pay you $99999 for protals 1 & 3
22:58:33 <ais523> elliott: offer not valid when 3 is released?
22:58:49 -!- oonbotti has joined.
22:59:27 <shachaf> AND ALSO IT'S 0 instead of $9999999
22:59:44 <shachaf> "0: a number so cool, it doesn't even need units"
23:15:18 -!- nortti_ has joined.
23:22:38 <elliott> shachaf: Maybe I could play Portal 1... right now?
23:24:13 <elliott> coppro: Can my computer run Portal 2.
23:24:29 <elliott> (How good a connection, latency-wise, do you need for Portal 2 coop?)
23:33:38 <elliott> shachaf: Did you know I meet Portal 2's system requirements? I think?
23:33:44 <elliott> I'm not sure if this card counts as Nvidia 8600M or higher.
23:34:59 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, yes, but the thing is it's a Valve game so the start is kind of babystepping and you don't want to stop right as the pace picks up.
23:35:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: But I don't have time to play the whole thing right now!
23:59:44 <elliott> shachaf: Does Portal really only take two hours to complete?
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00:08:52 <monqy> portal is a short game yes
00:09:00 <monqy> never played portal 2
00:12:10 <Sgeo> A long time ago, I used a main password on a website that stores passwords in plaintext.
00:12:10 <monqy> portal may take longer if you get stuck on puzzles
00:12:21 <elliott> monqy: i'm bad at puzzles but
00:12:46 <monqy> anyway portal is good & worth playing
00:12:51 <elliott> I think shachaf is away though. :'(
00:12:54 <monqy> i've heard mixed things about portal 2
00:13:08 <elliott> monqy: Is the Half-Life series also worth playing?
00:13:30 <monqy> i've only played hl2. this was a while ago but i think i liked it
00:15:05 <elliott> monqy: If I play them I have to start with HL1.
00:15:57 <monqy> I hear hl1 is good
00:16:13 <elliott> PH didn't like it, I think. But then he's PH.
00:16:17 <elliott> Or did he even try it? I forget.
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00:19:56 <elliott> fizzie: Why are you at work at 3 am?
00:20:08 <elliott> shachaf: does portal 2 really only take 2 hours
00:20:36 <shachaf> Trick question: There is no such thing.
00:20:52 <elliott> shachaf: does portal 1 really only take 2 hours
00:21:03 <shachaf> But then I was playing it "with someone else"
00:21:52 <elliott> anyway i'm "up for playing portal 1 now"
00:21:57 <elliott> how horrible is steam i;ve never used it
00:22:03 <elliott> i oppose it on ideological grounds but have never used it ha ha ha
00:22:35 <monqy> i run the windows version in wine so
00:22:37 <monqy> it's probably the worst for me
00:23:06 <elliott> did you know steam is coming to linxueseh
00:23:13 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: now: not found
00:23:21 <monqy> since i get weird breaky things like the windows moving a bit by themselves
00:23:24 <shachaf> elliott: It's pretty worse. :-(
00:23:39 <shachaf> "pretty worse: worse than pretty bad"
00:23:52 <shachaf> "and pretty bad is pretty bad all on its won"
00:23:58 <elliott> can i use it to bug people when i;m playing the game "that's all i need & demand from a thing that is going to get between me and games"
00:24:17 <monqy> yes but i just use irc for bug
00:24:22 <shachaf> elliott: The very fact that you're playing a game "bugs people".
00:24:36 <monqy> (it notifies them your playing game)
00:24:39 <shachaf> elliott: You should install Steam to demonstrate your good intentions!
00:24:44 <elliott> shachaf: but can i bug them with
00:24:49 <elliott> ~personal messages~ i don't like impersonal bugging
00:24:54 <elliott> that "hi" needs to be typed by me !
00:24:56 <monqy> you can bug them with that too
00:25:06 <elliott> monqy: excellent ph will never rest a day in his life again
00:25:31 <elliott> oh is there a limit to how many times you can redownload something from steam
00:25:34 <monqy> but ive nevver used it i just use irc
00:25:51 <elliott> monqy: irc requires switching windows and stuff
00:26:01 <monqy> i use windowed mode!!!
00:26:04 <elliott> at least if steam is anything like the OTHER things i've used it'll properly overlay on top of the game
00:26:05 <monqy> fullscren bothers me
00:26:12 <elliott> games in windowed mode are wrong
00:26:16 <elliott> think of your immersion monqy!!!
00:26:24 <monqy> my immersion is perfectly fine
00:26:24 <elliott> "Two-button mouse strongly recommended"
00:26:27 <shachaf> "monqys-crawl in windowed mode"
00:26:37 <elliott> Portal uses the mouse, right?
00:26:49 <monqy> it's "first person"
00:26:51 <elliott> Portal with a touchpad be?
00:26:58 <shachaf> "and it gotta have two buttons"
00:27:01 <elliott> I can right click with this thing!
00:27:05 <elliott> I've played Minecraft with this thing!
00:27:08 <monqy> have you ever played a fps except instead of shooting bullets you shoot puzzles
00:27:09 <shachaf> elliott: Just, like, get a mouse, man.
00:27:12 <elliott> It was intensely unpleasant, but...
00:27:28 <shachaf> monqy: "i just showed him"
00:27:29 <elliott> shachaf: I've already resolved to buy a DualShock 3 thing to play games with.
00:27:52 <shachaf> elliott: Instead of a dualshock 3 thing
00:27:55 <elliott> monqy: playstation 3 controller
00:27:59 <elliott> shachaf: nowhere to put a mouse
00:28:11 <shachaf> elliott: "on the touchpad"
00:28:11 <elliott> monqy: (playstation controllers are the best console controllers - elliott religion)
00:28:20 <shachaf> Can we have an offtopic channel for this conversation?
00:28:23 <monqy> i prefer mouse for fps "'game pads' are weird"
00:28:25 <elliott> this is the off-topic channel
00:28:34 <elliott> one purchase is better than two!
00:28:57 <elliott> im no place to put laptop down
00:29:05 <elliott> http://ompldr.org/vZThtOQ/Screen%20Shot%202012-06-11%20at%2001.27.49.png simply drag
00:29:21 <elliott> monqy: floor is bad mousepad
00:29:27 <monqy> put laptop on floor
00:29:30 <monqy> put mouspad on floor
00:29:33 <elliott> shachaf: Is steam meant to be a 1x1 pixel window?
00:29:43 <monqy> i dont "get" mac instals they're wierd
00:29:44 <shachaf> elliott: Now you see why people hate Steam so much.
00:29:45 <elliott> shachaf: Optimal mice are still yucky on floor.
00:29:47 <monqy> "i dont use a mac" - monqy
00:29:50 <elliott> Floor is all, like, lumpy.
00:29:55 <shachaf> elliott: Get a LAZER mouse.
00:29:59 <elliott> monqy: applications just run from anywhere
00:30:03 <elliott> and you put them in /Applications because
00:30:05 <monqy> get a "track ball" (laiughter)
00:30:06 <elliott> "why would you put them anywhere else"
00:30:07 <shachaf> "you know it's cool 'cause it's spelled with a zee"
00:30:29 <elliott> Oh, now it's updating Steam.
00:30:38 <monqy> honestly i'd rather fps with trackball than touchpad
00:30:40 <elliott> Why am I installing this Satanic thing?
00:30:56 <monqy> updating is steam's thing, man
00:30:57 <shachaf> monqy: "how much for a monqy opinion"
00:30:58 <elliott> monqy: Well um I'm probably not going to get very far with this touchpad, but.
00:31:10 <shachaf> elliott: No, seriously, don't use a touchpad.
00:31:13 <monqy> honestly i'd rather fps with trackball than "game pad"
00:31:25 <monqy> camera sticks are weird, man
00:31:32 <elliott> Do you think the "elliott" account name is taken?
00:31:32 <shachaf> monqy always gets "camera stuck"
00:31:34 <monqy> i can't use them to aim!!!
00:31:40 <elliott> monqy: I don't like sticks for camera movement in FPSes either.
00:31:50 <shachaf> elliott: you should get:: "ehird"
00:32:18 <shachaf> Only when you try to log in from a new computer.
00:32:27 <elliott> such an elegant indicator of progress
00:32:46 <elliott> Steam requires an answer to a predefined secret question?
00:32:50 <elliott> Why do people like Valve so much?
00:33:01 <elliott> "What is the name of your school?" "Elliott"
00:33:06 <elliott> (Because I *am* school, see?)
00:33:51 <monqy> wow im scvhool too
00:34:11 <elliott> Wow, thanks for echoing my password back at me in plain text, Steam.
00:34:22 <elliott> "Is this still your current email address?" I JUST GAVE IT TO YOU SECONDS AGO
00:34:35 <monqy> it's for double security
00:34:41 <elliott> Okay, I have a Steam account now.
00:34:52 <elliott> Is this the part where I add "friends" and get "achievements"?
00:35:00 <elliott> Because I have neither of these. IRL, I mean.
00:35:06 <shachaf> "achievement unlocked: unlocked achievement"
00:35:25 <elliott> Ew, ew, it identifies me by my email address?
00:35:33 <elliott> Wow you can't add friends without games.
00:35:34 <monqy> steam does lots of things
00:35:55 <elliott> monqy: How do I make it stop identifying me as [firstpartofmyemailaddress]+*****? The asterisks are covering up "steam" for some reason.
00:36:08 <elliott> Ah, I just have to change my "profile name".
00:36:31 <elliott> The worst piece of software installed on my computer.
00:36:37 <monqy> welcome to the club
00:37:11 <elliott> Wow, scrolling the store is really awful.
00:37:13 <shachaf> elliott: You know how you could make it even worse?
00:37:15 <elliott> Because it's a touchpad, see?
00:37:19 <elliott> But it scrolls in discrete increments in Steam.
00:37:22 <elliott> But it also does smooth scrolling.
00:37:25 <elliott> So it's really disorienting.
00:38:12 <elliott> http://steamcommunity.com/id/ehird/ ive got my own url im famous now
00:38:19 <shachaf> monqy: "now comes the time when you gift elliott portal 2"
00:38:39 <elliott> I like how the background of the library changes each time.
00:38:43 <elliott> By "like" I mean this is awful.
00:38:44 <monqy> i don't even own portal 2 myself
00:39:08 <shachaf> elliott: Do you like "the backdoors installed on your system now"
00:39:14 <monqy> i got portal when it was free
00:39:17 <elliott> When it says "This user has also played as:", do those entries expire after a while?
00:39:31 <elliott> shachaf: You should "gift" me Portal.
00:39:34 <elliott> Then I can become your "friend".
00:40:04 <elliott> I bet monqy can't wait to be my "friend".
00:40:05 <monqy> oh right that's your emmail isnt it
00:40:08 <elliott> I bet it's the only thing he lives for.
00:40:12 <elliott> monqy: It's an awful email. :(
00:40:22 <monqy> i have a few emails
00:40:23 <elliott> But I want a domain to change it to.
00:40:25 <monqy> about half of them are awful
00:40:40 <elliott> I think I know one of monqy's emails oh no shachaf added me.
00:40:46 <monqy> you probably know uh
00:40:52 <monqy> one of the decent ones
00:40:55 <elliott> shachaf: Go online, silly.
00:41:01 <monqy> i don't think i';ve mentioned any of the bad ones
00:41:04 <elliott> monqy: I don't remember how I found it out.
00:41:04 <shachaf> elliott: "i don't have steam installed ehre"
00:41:10 <elliott> I think I went "aha!" when I found it out, though, so it must have been cunning.
00:41:30 <elliott> http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197989530627 is this you monqy
00:41:33 <shachaf> monqy: "do you know elliott's email address"
00:41:40 <monqy> are you searching for me
00:41:43 <monqy> there are many monqys
00:41:50 <monqy> uuugh i have to clean out my friends list and such
00:41:54 <monqy> that things been untouched for years
00:41:59 <monqy> friends list and profile info
00:42:01 <elliott> don't worry i gave up after searching for "monqy"
00:42:04 <monqy> and probably everything else too ok good
00:42:30 <elliott> http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198011012274 the other result for monqy though
00:43:13 <monqy> "Member since: December 28, 2009" wow ive been a long time
00:43:18 <monqy> Last Online: 80 days ago
00:43:32 <shachaf> http://steamcommunity.com/id/mrmistermonkey
00:43:44 <monqy> you're awufl "did you know that"
00:43:57 <monqy> im going to hide and bury mself in hide
00:44:02 <monqy> turns out i already cleaned up my friends list
00:44:09 * elliott propels waves of comfort to monqy
00:44:12 <monqy> didnt clean up anything else though oops
00:44:15 <elliott> u r being buffeted by the waves of comfort
00:44:21 <monqy> oh wait i cleaned up my profile pic!
00:44:57 <monqy> i played lots of portal after i beat it !!!!
00:45:18 <monqy> i think i beat it at least 2 more times after that, one of which was the radios thing
00:45:24 <monqy> and also did advanced chambers and uh
00:45:31 <monqy> probably left it running while not playing
00:45:40 <elliott> monqy: it;s ok some of us are slow at games
00:45:44 <elliott> you don't need to make excuses!!!
00:45:50 <monqy> no i wasnt slow!!!
00:46:11 <monqy> oh i think the first time or two i played it though the achievements didnt work so those are "messed up"
00:46:34 <monqy> and i only played through hl2 once. same deal. but then i played it a bit again i think? so i have some early achievements
00:46:35 <elliott> "too bad I never got any of the achievements" - past monqy
00:46:50 <shachaf> "is that a self self portrait"
00:47:13 <monqy> it's the very same pear
00:47:26 <monqy> just not a rainbow ghost
00:47:29 <elliott> im not going to add monqy as a friend so he doesn't have to deal with the pain of declining my request "that's what friends are for"
00:47:49 <monqy> i woudlnt decline it !!! id just probably never log onto steam to accept it
00:47:51 <elliott> "VAC Status: In good standing" i don;t even know what this is
00:48:02 <shachaf> "The question remains, Mr. Threepwood, whether or not you can beat a pear"
00:51:27 <elliott> shachaf you gotta gifts me the portals so i can add monqy
00:51:40 <shachaf> elliott: "you can do that anyway"
00:51:47 <elliott> you have to add a game first
00:51:53 <elliott> his whole profile is greyed out if i log in
00:52:01 <elliott> yours worked because you added me
00:52:02 <shachaf> elliott: "want a team fortress 2 hat instead"
00:52:08 <shachaf> "i hear those are popular"
00:52:15 <elliott> if i play tf2 im not doing hats
00:52:23 <shachaf> elliott: "you can get tf2 for free btw"
00:52:29 <elliott> maybe i'll add tf2 since ph keeps telling me to play tf2 with him.
00:52:31 <shachaf> And then you'd have a game!
00:52:51 <shachaf> "almost as good as monqy facts"
00:53:27 <monqy> the thing with tf2 is it gets old quick then i have to take a big break
00:53:46 <shachaf> elliott: "you can get games from the humble bundles"
00:53:47 <elliott> i can't add an unfun game as my first profile game
00:53:55 <elliott> shachaf: no i dont want to play them through steam
00:54:00 <elliott> i want to reduce my steam infection to its minimal point
00:54:02 <shachaf> "but that way you can add monqy"
00:54:04 <elliott> monqy: ok i'll add it then
00:54:06 <elliott> can you delete games later
00:54:15 <elliott> can i erase any knowledge that tf2 was my first-added game from steam
00:54:36 <shachaf> "also it records how many hours you've played each game"
00:54:42 <elliott> shachaf: but can't you delete!
00:55:19 <elliott> monqy: can;etl; you sdlet;re
00:56:10 <shachaf> monqy: elliott is asking whether you can delete games from your Steam game list.
00:56:12 <elliott> shachaf: im not accepting any gift that starts with "Create your own paradox... for the love of pie"
00:56:13 <shachaf> I don't know of a way to do it.
00:57:18 <elliott> i'll add a smaller game instead
00:57:28 <shachaf> elliott: Like the pieradox game??
00:57:36 <elliott> no i'd have to kill myself
00:57:40 <elliott> if i added that one as my first one
00:57:48 <shachaf> elliott: "were you happy when you saw: gift received"
00:57:58 <elliott> actually there was a pang of "oh god"
00:58:18 <elliott> shachaf: you know what would be a gr8 first two games to add
00:58:39 <monqy> uuuuuugh why is steam sending me my access code to my old awful email
00:58:54 <shachaf> monqy: What's your awful email?
00:58:54 <elliott> monqy: your old email can't possibly be as bad as mine
00:58:56 <monqy> elliott: i dont think you can detatch steam from your bad email
00:58:58 <monqy> shachaf: i wont tell you
00:59:02 <monqy> elliott: i wont tell you
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00:59:31 <monqy> i figure becaus: i think i changed the email steam uses, but it didnt chagne? ? ?? ? ????
00:59:46 <elliott> shachaf: anyway can i have
01:00:07 <monqy> should have gotten it when it was free!!! like me
01:00:57 <shachaf> monqy: "hi every1 im new!!!!!!! *holds up spork* my name is katy but u can call me t3h PeNgU1N oF d00m!!!!!!!! lol...as u can see im very random!!!!"
01:01:53 <elliott> shachaf: can i have portal :(
01:01:56 <monqy> shachaf: is that you
01:01:59 <monqy> shachaf: did you quote yourself
01:02:00 <elliott> i installed steam just for you!!!
01:02:30 <elliott> shachaf: did i install steam for nothing :(
01:02:41 <monqy> gulls and penguins "the same"
01:03:02 <monqy> stea mis bad at verifiying my special authentication code!!!!
01:03:07 <monqy> that swhat a shcahfaf is right
01:03:14 <monqy> also the same: duck
01:03:30 <shachaf> "NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH monqy!!!!!"
01:12:04 <zzo38> Why does 6502 lack a command to increment the accumulator?
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01:23:59 <zzo38> In some processors you can even increment an immediate value
01:24:56 <zzo38> (Of course it won't work if the program is stored in ROM; but if it is bank switching with the bank switch address the same as ROM address, then it can be used for that purpose)
01:40:53 <pikhq> Gregor: I declare delight in your voyages.
01:42:01 <pikhq> monqy: That "hi every1 im new!!!!!!!" thing is a 5 year old /b/ post that made the rounds.
01:42:41 <pikhq> (yes, that was posted on friggin' /b/.)
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02:01:44 <shachaf> pikhq: It was a joke about elliott.
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02:27:52 <quintopia> @tell elliott new scoring is implemented and afaik functional. i'll let you install it.
02:45:12 -!- tswett has set topic: forking | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Does anyone here have a recipe for macaroni casserole? tswett is looking for one..
02:45:27 <tswett> To answer the question someone is about to ask me: yes.
02:46:27 <shachaf> tswett: I have a recipe for macaroni casserole here. There's only one copy. Should I put it in the shredder?
02:50:25 <tswett> Okay, now take it back out of the shredder.
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03:01:45 <shachaf> paper jam = the most delicious kind of jam
03:05:41 -!- quintopia has set topic: forking | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | This is what the bfjoust hill will look like under the new scoring system: http://sprunge.us/DcIQ.
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03:10:50 <Sgeo> Should I try to use emacs starter kit?
03:14:34 <Sgeo> I'm just going to use Lispcabinet
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03:39:05 <Sgeo> The clojars website SUCKS
03:41:48 <Sgeo> Sedevacant Catholic vs .... not entirely sure what fight in #jesus is starting.
03:41:57 <Sgeo> Well, fight might be the wrong word
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04:12:34 <pikhq> Sgeo: You must be a glutton for punishment.
04:12:55 <Sgeo> pikhq, the arguing didn't really start
04:13:15 <pikhq> I mean, surely #jesus is evidence that the Judeo-Christian mythos is correct, and #jesus is hell in it? :P
04:16:10 <Sgeo> `quote <pikhq> I mean, surely #jesus is evidence that the Judeo-Christian mythos is correct, and #jesus is hell in it? :P
04:16:12 <HackEgo> Failed to clone the environment!
04:16:32 <Sgeo> Well, that's nice
04:16:35 <pikhq> Gregor: HackEgo bork
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05:22:54 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
05:23:04 <elliott> 06:23 <lambdabot> quintopia said 2h 55m 8s ago: new scoring is implemented and afaik functional. i'll let you install it.
05:23:13 <elliott> ...you realise I do not administer EgoBot, right?
05:30:38 <shachaf> Finished "the poratl" yet??
05:30:53 <elliott> 06:23 <elliott> ok i palyed up to level 18
05:31:02 <elliott> i saved for there because its 6:30 am
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07:00:21 <elliott> @tell quintopia To clarify, I don't run EgoBot and have no ability to instal lanything on it.
07:00:25 <elliott> Note to self: read logs tomorrow.
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15:43:14 <nortti> "Next up: How to jailbreak your browser"
15:59:31 <nortti> http://crna.cc/magenta.html
16:02:06 <Deewiant> elliott: printf "\x1b[8;24;80t"
16:06:17 <elliott> Deewiant: (Can that make the window floating before doing that?)
16:06:25 <elliott> (I have to manually float it as it stands.)
16:07:06 <Deewiant> Floating? As in tiling window managers? I guess X might have some kind of message for that but I really don't know almost anything about X under the hood.
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16:32:39 <elliott> Deewiant: Yes, as in that.
16:34:19 <elliott> Excuse me but, i win a nobel prize if i say that the fibonacci phenomenon is due to rotation of earth "plus" growth factor ???
16:34:19 <elliott> for example... for the spiral of sunflowers, and sea animal shells, just draw a straight line...very slowly...maybe following the sun light... and the rotation of earth make (plus growth factor) it become a spiral... does anybody before me understand it ???
16:34:22 <elliott> M.G. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.25.124.250 (talk) 15:39, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
16:34:27 <elliott> -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Fibonacci_number#Nobel_Prize_.3F
16:34:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Will M.G. win a Nobel Prize?
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16:52:40 <HackEgo> seg: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
16:52:45 <HackEgo> segorev: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
16:52:46 <HackEgo> segorev: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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18:25:27 <Taneb> I want to play Ratchet and Clank 3 again...
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19:00:23 <elliott> monqy: there's a very special message waiting for you
19:00:31 <lambdabot> monqy: You have 4 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
19:01:04 <monqy> :( / yes i knew / yes i knew / ok
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19:30:11 <Sgeo_> elliott, monqy Phantom_Hoover new album
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19:30:41 <Sgeo_> I thought I tried to tab-complete you. Huh.
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19:30:53 <Taneb> Maybe you tried Ngevd?
19:31:34 <Sgeo_> I thought I tried both, but I'm more sure I tried ngevd, so
19:32:31 <oerjan> Gregor: today's logs seem cut off
19:32:32 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 5 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
19:34:47 <oerjan> today's don't even exist
19:35:18 <oerjan> @tell Gregor Logs are broken since 2012-06-11
19:37:47 <lambdabot> elliott said 6h 25m 28s ago: Ben Olmstead commented on the Malbolge 99 bottles of beer some years ago.
19:37:47 <lambdabot> elliott said 6h 22m 51s ago: Ha ha, people who trust TIOBE.
19:37:47 <lambdabot> elliott said 6h 22m 20s ago: Using pastebin.com makes me sad, by the way.
19:37:47 <lambdabot> elliott said 6h 22m 15s ago: At least use pastie or something.
19:37:47 <lambdabot> elliott said 6h 22m 1s ago: (Or hpaste; it's not Haskell-exclusive.)
19:38:37 <elliott> <oerjan> Gregor: today's logs seem cut off
19:38:42 <Sgeo_> Oh, thingy taht tracks poplarity of logs
19:40:23 <oerjan> elliott: i was munging some data that was pasted to sprunge, which doesn't have a web interface, so i just started typing paste into my address line and pastebin.com was the first thing to appear in the suggestions. (probably from something on reddit.)
19:41:10 <oerjan> i considered omploader but wasn't sure if that was just for pictures
19:41:28 <nortti> i use paste.dy.fi but it is finnish
19:41:34 <oerjan> might have used hpaste if that had popped into my mind
19:41:50 <elliott> just use curl, you wimp :P
19:42:12 <oerjan> elliott: what, install a program? how rude.
19:43:38 <oerjan> elliott: also haskell reaching spot 25 surely means _something_, even if TIOBE's an inaccurate measure
19:43:49 <elliott> tiobe just uses google hits or something
19:44:15 <oerjan> the comment about logo is hilarious :P
19:44:45 <oerjan> but i doubt "haskell programming" shows up much unrelated...
19:45:22 <nortti> where did you find that info?
19:46:51 <oerjan> http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html
19:47:09 <oerjan> it's not like it's the top google hit for TIOBE or anything...
19:48:04 <nortti> oh. "This site requires JavaScript." what language is number 1?
19:48:09 <oerjan> (the reason i went there was because someone wanted to know what i meant by using arrows to show changes, and i recalled they used it)
19:48:12 <elliott> oerjan: i doubt nortti's computer can use google.
19:48:29 <nortti> elliott: I can use google
19:48:36 <oerjan> nortti: C, Java, C++, Objective-C
19:52:03 <oerjan> <elliott> @tell ais523 Oh wait, it's not places, it's points.
19:52:32 <oerjan> if you're looking at my diff, i do realize using -10 to mean going up 10 places is a little confusing
19:53:45 <oerjan> but i assumed people here were smart enough to interpret it >:)
19:54:07 <Taneb> I was going to complain, but then I switched to thinking it made a lot more sense than the alternative
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22:26:06 <olsner> elliott: drawing the line, picard style? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyDbfCbQnH8
22:28:02 <coppro> http://www.google.com/search?q=chuck+norris
22:28:17 <olsner> coppro: chuck norris says "hi"
22:30:11 <coppro> olsner: see the box on the right
22:30:31 <elliott> coppro: you don;t realise how terrible you are!!!
22:30:40 <olsner> coppro: actually, google seems to be unable to complete the secure transaction
22:31:32 <coppro> (also try lionel richie)
22:31:35 <olsner> but the automatic google search that happens when loading fails suggests I may be looking for "google"
22:33:30 <olsner> and if I manually google for chuck norris I get sucky localized personalized google that doesn't do anything useful at all
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22:37:59 <olsner> nice, logged out of everything google, now it works perfectly
22:38:08 <olsner> they really like to punish me for having a gmail account
22:57:10 <coppro> were you on google.com on your manual search?
22:57:14 <coppro> the box is only on google.com currently
22:58:22 <coppro> http://maps.apple.com/
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23:00:27 <olsner> no, that was using the sucky localized personalized google that doesn't do anything useful at all
23:01:02 <olsner> ... because google.com required being logged out of your google account to work at all
23:01:56 <pikhq> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-tbray-http-legally-restricted-status-00 I am fucking depressed that this seems like a good idea.
23:02:04 <olsner> ... but after logging out and retrying on google.com I got the chuck norris box
23:05:01 <olsner> the attempt at humor in that example seemed a bit malplaced
23:06:03 <nortti> yes. it seems like pretty damn good idea
23:06:31 <oerjan> and i've never had a google account
23:06:53 <pikhq> olsner: It's IETF, what do you expect?
23:07:08 <oerjan> the menus were in norwegian though, probably the reason
23:07:27 <olsner> yes, you need to find your way to Actual Google first
23:08:06 <oerjan> ...i did use your link.
23:09:06 * oerjan used the google in english link first
23:09:17 <olsner> google is very keen in force-feeding you your "preferred" language based on incorrect guesses
23:09:32 <oerjan> um the guess is correct enough :P
23:09:45 <oerjan> since i _do_ have norwegian as my top browser choice
23:10:13 <oerjan> no, that would be a teeny bit strange for a swede
23:10:21 <pikhq> olsner: What, you mean national language of your current locale != preferred language?
23:10:36 <pikhq> Everyone knows everyone in $country speaks $country-ish!
23:11:19 <oerjan> couldn't you set english explicitly in the browser, then?
23:12:48 <olsner> pikhq: at least that is one of the less bad ways of getting it completely wrong :)
23:13:30 <pikhq> Though it breaks *horribly* on some countries, and also doesn't work *very* well in most countries.
23:13:58 <pikhq> (pick a language to default to for India. Go on.)
23:14:32 <olsner> a nice example was when all opera users got facebook in indonesian, because opera mini is very popular in indonesia
23:15:17 * Sgeo_ decides that Facebook is very special
23:15:28 <Sgeo_> ...ok, I need to stop being an asshole
23:15:40 <olsner> and when people do it wrong the other way, all opera mini users get pages in norwegian
23:16:45 <pikhq> I'm pretty sure all current browsers support sending what the browser's current language setting is...
23:16:59 <olsner> oerjan: that language setting doesn't seem to work on google, I checked that it's set to english
23:17:37 <pikhq> Why not just handle that, and default over to an internationalised language selection page?
23:18:39 <oerjan> olsner: now i tried setting it to italian, which gave me english, and resetting to norwegian _still_ gives me english. perhaps it doesn't look at that option at all.
23:19:23 <oerjan> pikhq: IE allows a prioritized list of languages
23:19:32 <olsner> ooh, another nice example of this stuff breaking down...
23:19:38 <olsner> some folks' apache server was set up to automatically forward to the "right" language version of pages, so if your preferred language was anything except *danish* what you got was a localized "congratulations, your web server works!" page
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23:20:48 <olsner> it was from one of dad's work projects ... "it looks like it works in denmark, but no-one in sweden can access it, halp?"
23:23:49 <olsner> hmm, the built-in google search url points to google.se ... I wonder how that happened
23:28:50 <oerjan> i vaguely recall mine points to .co.uk
23:39:28 * pikhq beats the moron that stuck ddrescue in /sbin/
23:41:04 <elliott> aaaa!! ty Gandalf61!! :) mmm i already have a certain idea..:) but i will make some experiment anyway. ty so much for your interest on my topic anyway! thank you. and...if i suppose is due to the earth magnetic field..? kinda like make grow a broccoflower inside a solenoid? i will try.
23:41:05 <elliott> -mmm..nice reading Phyllotaxis..it comes out that golden ratio have something to do with pentagon, and pentagon with dodecahedron, a platonic solid.(and the that-time-believed shape of universe). Bye. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.11.127.63 (talk) 18:34, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
23:41:57 <oerjan> technically correct, the best kind of correct
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02:29:26 <coppro> I should write a language where type conversions are not idempotent
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03:09:59 <quintopia> time for space elevator to move into second place. sorry slowpoke.
03:10:09 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/WEWc
03:10:18 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 50.8
03:11:22 <quintopia> it's second place on the new scoring system at least
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03:40:18 <quintopia> !bfjoust moves_olsner_to_the_bottom [>[-]+]
03:40:21 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_moves_olsner_to_the_bottom: 8.1
03:41:52 <quintopia> and that is the problem with the current scoring system
03:42:13 <quintopia> the stupidest program beats all of olsner's, but they remain relatively high-ranking
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03:47:37 <quintopia> !bfjoust 3pac >+>->+>->+>->+>(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*15<(+)*15<(-)*20<(+)*40>(-)*20>(+)*15>(-)*15>>>>>(>[((-)*3([+{(+)*35[-][+]}[-]])%6(+)*2>)*3((+)*3([-{(-)*40[+][-]}[+]])%6(+)*2>)*18](+)*2)*21
03:47:40 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_3pac: 51.3
04:02:40 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/bKSD
04:02:43 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 49.0
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04:02:59 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/WEWc
04:03:02 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 51.1
04:09:43 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/DNTi
04:09:46 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 51.3
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04:20:55 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/LcSj
04:20:58 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 52.0
04:30:05 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/VbOQ
04:30:08 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 54.6
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04:58:17 <myndzi> high score for a simple looking program
04:58:32 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/AMJF
04:58:35 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 55.5
04:59:10 <quintopia> myndzi: by the new scoring system, this new version of space_elevator has top score. waiting for gregor to return to install it.
05:04:14 <myndzi> oh, there's a new scoring system
05:04:19 <myndzi> also i was talking about 3pac, didn't click any links
05:04:53 <myndzi> amusingly slowrush is still chillin' at halfway
05:05:11 <myndzi> what is this new system?
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05:41:29 <kmc> > text "\o/"
05:41:31 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at chara...
05:41:36 <kmc> > text "\\o/"
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10:19:12 <ion> When applying for a job in Germany, use one of these fonts in your CV. http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_OS0MkeqUXug/S5FWyNniaXI/AAAAAAAAAfQ/fySzP2mYrjU/s400/Gothic_types_Third_Reich.jpg
10:37:51 <ion> http://designtaxi.com/news/352757/Apple-s-Clothing-Line-From-The-80s/
10:48:58 <quintopia> !bfjoust 3pac >+>->+>->+>->+>(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*15<(+)*15<(-)*20<(+)*40>(-)*20>(+)*15>(-)*15>>>>>(>[((-)*3([+{(+)*35[-][+]}[-]])%6(+)*2>)*2((+)*3([-{(-)*40[+][-]}[+]])%6(+)*2>)*18](+)*2)*21
10:49:06 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_3pac: 51.7
10:57:44 <ais523> someone linked me to this, and it's actually pretty hilarious: http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/uxpil/ive_been_playing_the_same_game_of_civilization_ii/
10:57:45 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
10:57:50 <lambdabot> elliott said 21h 41m 32s ago: Haha, all your programs drop like 10 places.
10:57:51 <lambdabot> elliott said 21h 41m 13s ago: Oh wait, it's not places, it's points.
10:57:51 <lambdabot> elliott said 21h 41m 9s ago: Score.
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11:47:45 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/QLDh
11:47:50 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 56.5
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14:17:02 <nortti> is there a list of net gtlds?
14:17:55 <elliott> http://facebook.google.youtube/
14:18:35 <fizzie> nortti: http://newgtlds.icann.org/en/program-status/application-results/strings-1200utc-13jun12-en if you mean the new ones.
14:18:39 <fizzie> http://www.iana.org/domains/root/db and filter out the ones that say "country-code", if you mean the old ones.
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14:19:58 <fizzie> Quite a few ".cloud"s.
14:20:25 <fizzie> Hey, City of Helsinki has applied for .helsinki.
14:21:34 <fizzie> I guess they got tired of having to share "helsinki.fi" with Helsinki University, who had gotten it before they could. (They only have "hel.fi" for their own.)
14:23:07 <fizzie> Our university should hurry up and get the .aalto.
14:24:35 <fizzie> Two applicants for that, I see.
14:24:41 <elliott> fizzie: so are most of those likely to be accepted or are there limits or some kind of stringent requirement or sth
14:25:40 <fizzie> There are requirements, but they sounded to me mostly financial, making sure the applicant is not going to go immediately out of business and so on.
14:27:18 <fizzie> There's a public comment period and whatnot for complaints, though.
14:29:13 <fizzie> The eglibility section says just "established corporations, organizations, or institutions in good standing". And there's some financial escrow stuff. And things like "no convicted criminals" rules.
14:30:17 <fizzie> "Has been involved in a pattern of adverse, final decisions indicating that the applicant or individual named in the application was engaged in cybersquatting as defined in the Uniform Domain Name Dispute Resolution Policy (UDRP), the [blah blah blah] or [bleh bleh bleh]."
14:30:27 <fizzie> But I'd think most of them pass these kinds of things.
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15:03:16 <nortti> http://pics.kuvaton.com/kuvei/tiesitko_etta.jpg
15:27:00 <fizzie> Sounds like sensible advice.
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15:33:19 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/VVjb
15:33:22 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 53.7
15:33:27 <quintopia> that bug has been annoying me for ages
15:33:40 <fizzie> Yeah, the "Hello!" bug is indeed quite annoying.
15:33:52 <quintopia> i delete it, and then i change somethign else, and i have to download the buggy version again
15:34:00 <quintopia> now it is fixed and uploaded and shan't return again!
15:34:08 <Sgeo_> http://www.networkworld.com/community/blog/snopescom-debunks-old-c-interview-hoax
15:34:23 <Sgeo_> I always thought that "interview" was a joke
15:34:27 <Sgeo_> People actually believe it?
15:34:36 <quintopia> it's strange that the score went down
15:34:39 <elliott> oh good for a minute there i thought sgeo believed the interview was real
15:34:42 <quintopia> something else is changed in there
15:36:44 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
15:36:47 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/edUD
15:36:50 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 56.2
16:05:05 <elliott> quintopia: have you tried using death_to_defence's clear loop
16:06:51 <quintopia> elliott: i am beating all of the defence programs already. why should i?
16:07:24 <elliott> to defeat future defence programs?
16:07:50 <quintopia> i started writing a similar program to death_to_defence once
16:08:17 <quintopia> it was several MB long before i quit and allowed it to vanish when my computer rebooted
16:10:25 <quintopia> i admit the idea of a timer clear followed by a different kind of clear is nigh-unlockable. i expect to see such clears wipe out defense programs entirely in the future
16:10:41 <elliott> quintopia: didn't you see ais523 found a counter?
16:13:42 <quintopia> yeah it looks neat. it also looks imminently defeatable by the right kind of clear
16:14:02 <elliott> pretty much every strategy is defeatable by another strategy
16:14:11 <elliott> (do you mean "eminently"?)
16:14:48 <quintopia> i mean that i suspect that we'll so have clears that there is just no way to compactly lock
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16:22:54 <ion> https://twitter.com/StephenAtHome/status/209852174669320195
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16:31:52 <ion> https://s3.amazonaws.com/f.cl.ly/items/3j2l3u43110U2G0P1F2K/monolith.jpg
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16:33:41 <HackEgo> djerro: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
16:34:16 -!- quintopia has set topic: forking | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | This is what the bfjoust hill will look like under the new scoring system: http://sprunge.us/FQgC.
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16:53:02 <Taneb> I've been thinking about Free monads and Cofree comonads
16:55:34 <Taneb> Maybe is Free Proxy; Identity is Cofree Proxy
17:00:50 <Taneb> It's almost (,) Peano
17:01:36 <copumpkin> it's just Const () or something like that
17:01:52 <elliott> copumpkin: Proxy === Const ()
17:02:08 <copumpkin> but the name Proxy has additional connotations which are irrelevant here
17:02:27 <copumpkin> that's why I said "I wouldn't think of it as"
17:02:28 <elliott> Taneb: Free Maybe *is* (,) Nat, isn't it?
17:04:26 <copumpkin> it's not quite (,) Nat considering codata
17:05:01 <copumpkin> since with Free Maybe you need to go all the way to the bottom to hit that a
17:05:28 <copumpkin> but if it's data, then they should be equivalent
17:05:47 <copumpkin> (different computationally though)
17:06:28 <copumpkin> even if it's data, you still need to traverse the "nat" all the way to the bottom to project out the a
17:06:36 <copumpkin> whereas with a pair it's constant time
17:07:10 <copumpkin> the reason I comment on it is that I've been dealing with a very similar situation a lot when trying to encode skew-binary in agda
17:07:18 <copumpkin> with an eye on complexity (proofs)
17:17:04 <Taneb> Free Maybe is different because it could have a Nothing at some point
17:17:17 <Taneb> Free Identity is (,) Nat
17:18:16 <elliott> how do you represent (fix Succ, 42)
17:19:26 <Taneb> fix (Pure . Identity)
17:21:48 <Taneb> it's Either BloodyRidiculousInfinityStupidThing (Nat, a)
17:29:30 <copumpkin> so it's not anything particularly interesting
17:31:47 <elliott> Taneb: no, Nat has infty :)
17:32:01 <Taneb> Is Conat finite only?
17:32:13 <elliott> conat is data Conat = Z | S Conat
17:32:31 <ion> Conat Ellioll
17:32:36 <Taneb> Not the other way round?
17:33:01 <elliott> codata is potentially infinite
17:33:12 <elliott> ion: watch monqy play crawl thx
17:33:21 <ion> What server?
17:33:24 <elliott> ion: he's doing all the branches on the orb run
17:33:26 <elliott> telnet light.bitprayer.com
17:33:54 <elliott> ion: (he just did orb run tomb:3 using mephitic cloud as a replacement for pnoise)
17:34:03 <ion> I began playing Thief. Also, posted http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=version&iId=26146
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17:34:50 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, wait, is that distinction particularly obvious in Haskell?
17:35:04 <elliott> ion: (he did all branchless runes first and is now entering the branches for the first times; he's got the vaults and tomb runes so far)
17:35:13 <ion> I also tried Dungeons of Dredmor. Its perspective is just as annoying as i thought it would be when looking at screenshots. And IT NEEDS AUTOEXPLORE.
17:35:15 <elliott> erm, with zot:3 in the middle of that
17:35:19 <elliott> (light's equivalent of zot:5)
17:35:23 <ion> elliott: ok
17:35:54 <elliott> ion: oh yeah, he also hasn't found a source of conservation all game
17:36:41 <elliott> ion: oh also also he ha sno heal wounds
17:36:46 <elliott> i think he might be out of healing (curing) too
17:36:54 <elliott> all his potions got shattered more or less
17:37:04 <ion> Of course.
17:38:31 <ion> The Random Number God in action.
17:38:58 <elliott> what a great bug/something
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17:42:45 <elliott> ion: #CrawlLight for "running commentary"
17:43:48 <ion> I’m on too many channels already. :-(
17:44:21 <elliott> ion: You'll miss me announcing all the pan lord names!
17:44:31 <nortti> ion: how many channel are you on?
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17:46:39 <ion> Wow, 58 already. (But many of them are related to smallish projects and have next to no traffic, and some i don’t really follow regularly.)
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17:46:58 <elliott> You should swap one of them for #CrawlLight!
17:47:11 <ion> I’ll join temporarily. :-P
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18:50:46 <oerjan> quintopia: hey why you remove my diff :(
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18:57:35 <oerjan> i find it slightly disturbing that attack1 is there and not in report.txt
18:57:48 <oerjan> (that was the case with the previous diff too)
19:22:35 -!- oerjan has set topic: forking | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | This is what the bfjoust hill will look like under the new scoring system: http://sprunge.us/FQgC | Older example diff at http://pastebin.com/RhjNMDnE.
19:23:21 <oerjan> i made that kludging around in vim, so i cannot be bothered to regenerate it
19:27:59 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, wait, is that distinction particularly obvious in Haskell?
19:28:24 <oerjan> haskell tends to default to codata more than other languages
19:29:06 <oerjan> and ! strictness annotation can then make it data instead
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19:31:26 <oerjan> e.g. haskell's infinite lists are a prime example of codata
19:33:24 <Taneb> If I had any say in Haskell, and to be honest I'm glad I don't
19:33:43 <Taneb> I'd scrap lists, and use streams and sequences
19:33:52 <Taneb> Whether infinite or finite
19:33:54 <Phantom__Hoover> It's obvious in e.g. Coq and Agda because they don't allow unrestricted recursion.
19:36:33 <oerjan> Taneb: how is a stream different from a list?
19:36:54 <Taneb> By stream I generally mean infinite stream
19:37:59 <oerjan> that would make lazy finite lists impossible
19:38:20 <Taneb> Hence why I'm glad I have no real power in the Haskell community
19:41:16 <Taneb> Mild annoyance about Data.Sequence:
19:41:26 <Taneb> Seq isn't an instance of Applicative and Alternative
19:41:36 <Taneb> Despite being an instance of both Monad and MonadPlus
19:44:37 <oerjan> sounds like it should be fixed
20:06:26 <olsner> oerjan: so a +25 in the diff means that the place number has increased, i.e. that it's gone down by 25 steps?
20:10:11 <olsner> looks like my worst program did best in terms of going down the least
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20:32:21 <olsner> shachaf: what, you want me to change back?
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21:37:42 <quintopia> oerjan: because the hill (both mine and the egobot one) have changed since you made it. i changed the link in the topic, so it didnt make sense to leave the diff.
21:40:16 <quintopia> you should make that rusher that figures out what offsets to use on the fly :P
21:40:40 <quintopia> also why does shudderlock succeed in locking dtd?
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21:51:30 <ais523> quintopia: because dtd changes strategy, and the lock loop chosen locks both the original strategy and the strategy it changes to, given some constant tweaking
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21:51:42 <ais523> (it doesn't require a huge amount of constant tweaking, there's a lot of values that work)
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22:11:04 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Huh. Why?
22:11:10 <elliott> (OK, the Atlantic is probably no real loss, at least.)
22:12:10 <Phantom__Hoover> The admins are being kind of cagey about it but reading between the lines they've been mass-spamming and manipulating voting.
22:13:46 <Phantom__Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/TheoryOfReddit/comments/v03qc/physorg_is_not_allowed_on_reddit_this_domain_has/
22:14:03 <Phantom__Hoover> violentacrez is spearheading it so of course bitterness and accusations of fascism abound.
22:14:34 <elliott> I think I'll skip, if violentacrez is involved. Also since I remember /r/TheoryOfReddit being insufferable.
22:15:46 <quintopia> ais523: would a clear that changes strategy several times, trying several different cycle lengths, be possible to represent as compactly as dtd?
22:15:50 <elliott> OK, I lied. But after seeing "Drinking the Citizens United Kool-Aid again? DOMAINS ARE NOT PEOPLE. THEY CANNOT BE "RESPONSIBLE" FOR ANYTHING." I don't think this thread can get any better, so I'm now closing the tab.
22:16:41 <quintopia> and i think such a strategy would not be (permanently) lockable
22:16:50 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Doesn't every action he has done since it was shut down constitute that?
22:16:53 <ais523> quintopia: you can do it with a regular timer clear, but you get a combinatorial explosion with a flexible timer clear like dtd
22:17:04 <ais523> such strategies beat shudderlock, but lose to anticipation
22:17:05 <elliott> (Actually I haven't heard anything about him since then, so maybe he sulked off or something.)
22:17:31 <quintopia> ais523: how does anticipation do it?
22:17:32 <ais523> you might be able to combine them in a way that beats both shudderlock and anticipation, I guess, but then you'd be able to write a program that was a mix of shudderlock and anticipation that beat them again, probably
22:17:46 <quintopia> (and doesnt anticipation suffer from combinatorial explosion?)
22:17:57 <elliott> "What special search terms do I need to look up information on writing external BBS software packages?"
22:18:01 <ais523> quintopia: it relies on the opponent using the same clear loop on every second cell (most programs do that, in fact most use the same loop on every cell but some alternate polarity)
22:18:02 <elliott> what a ridiculous SO question
22:18:07 <ais523> and no, anticipation is linear, not exponential
22:18:11 <ais523> it's just got a huge constant factor
22:18:36 <quintopia> so anticipation can figure out any cycle length?
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22:20:15 <elliott> ais523: You should wake monqy up.
22:20:34 <ais523> quintopia: yes, but it needs a different case for each cycle length
22:20:52 <ais523> you can defeat it easily by changing between three or more different clear loops, or two in an XXYYXXYY pattern rather than alternating
22:21:01 <ais523> but most programs don't do that, that's the only reason it works
22:21:56 <quintopia> ais523: a different case for each cycle length being "it took 128 cycles, it took 130 cycles, it took 132 cycles, etc."?
22:22:15 <ais523> and each needs an entire full-tape clear in it
22:22:29 <quintopia> yeah i can see how that would get big fast :P
22:22:31 <ais523> which is a simple algorithm, but which can't be expressed succinctly
22:22:47 <ais523> elliott: I don't see how I can if you can't
22:22:57 <ais523> unless he's someone I know in RL but don't know he's monqy
22:23:21 <ais523> really, I'd prefer BF Joust if it just had a "full-tape clear" command
22:23:27 <quintopia> ais523: he lives here iirc. yo wouldnt know him.
22:23:55 <quintopia> i could probably wake him up in a couple hours given his address
22:23:58 <elliott> ais523: Well, you live in the US, right?
22:24:09 <elliott> quintopia: Wait, you're in California?
22:24:21 <ais523> elliott: oh, I thought quintopia was implying that monqy lived in #esoteric
22:24:43 <quintopia> i prefer NES and SNES was thinking of cakeprophet/kallisti
22:24:49 <ais523> and no, I live within walking distance of Hexham, if you allow the walk to take several weeks
22:25:22 <elliott> yeah, NES and SNES are better than California
22:25:30 <quintopia> that originally started with "never mind, i..."
22:25:46 <elliott> you + me + taneb can have an #esoteric meetup
22:25:54 <ais523> elliott: not right now, I'm busy on Thursday and busy on Friday
22:26:04 <quintopia> you guys should all walk to georgia.
22:26:27 <elliott> how about the other way around
22:26:36 <quintopia> juust wait for an ice age, and you could walk here over the land bridge in a few years
22:27:35 <elliott> I couldn't survive an apocalypse. I don't even have any bitcoins.
22:27:45 <elliott> Well, I think I have like...
22:27:56 <elliott> Probably enough for 10 pounds or something by now.
22:28:03 <elliott> And then 1 penny in a few months.
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22:52:51 <HackEgo> cheesey: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
22:56:26 <cheesey> Cheers :) came here from the wiki actually, might lurk and attempt to contribute for a bit if nobody minds.
22:56:42 <cheesey> Though I haven't done much with building programming languages in a few years, I'd like to get back into it
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23:31:55 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Wake monqy up, god dammit.
23:32:37 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Fly to California.
23:32:44 <shachaf> elliott: I'm already *in* California!
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23:34:17 <elliott> shachaf: Then the rest is up to you.
23:34:21 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Yes, that should work.
23:34:34 <shachaf> elliott: where does monqy live !
23:34:48 <elliott> monqy: I'M GOING TO DO A LABRYINTH IF YOU DON'T WAKE UP
23:35:06 <shachaf> elliott: is the answer:: lompoc, california
23:38:18 <nortti_> http://i.crackedcdn.com/phpimages/photoshop/7/7/2/133772_v1.jpg
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00:01:44 <elliott> fizzie: You should, like, ban monqy.
00:07:22 -!- oerjan has joined.
00:09:48 <oerjan> a primate target for banning
00:10:15 <oerjan> phys.org eh? well everyone said they were crap anyway
00:13:04 <oerjan> well we need to follow the kantian imperative then.
00:13:30 <oerjan> so, everyone who is on the channel but who doesn't respond within 5 minutes of pinging will be banned.
00:14:06 <oerjan> if they respond, they need to then pass the turing test so we know they're not just botting.
00:14:25 <oerjan> nortti_: elliott wants monqy banned for not being here
00:15:05 <oerjan> nortti_: well tell us a bit about your mother.
00:15:21 <oerjan> (no one said the _questioner_ needed to pass, right?)
00:16:13 <oerjan> wait, we have bots here. we cannot ban those...
00:16:37 <oerjan> banning fungot would be a major crime
00:16:38 <fungot> oerjan: from aio import chomp chomp". " 6"?
00:17:20 <elliott> oerjan: Just ping them correctly.
00:17:22 <fungot> elliott: and then you notice the white smoke in the channel. someone asked me if it's not open
00:17:38 <oerjan> elliott: sorry i cannot ban monqy as he's indistinguishable from several of Gregor's bots much of the time
00:17:43 -!- oonbotti has joined.
00:17:44 <elliott> "and then you notice the white smoke in the channel" -- eerie.
00:19:12 <oerjan> elliott: but you wouldn't want monqy banned if he talked!
00:19:36 <oerjan> unless he purposefully ignored only you, presumably
00:20:53 <elliott> He just isn't talking *enough*.
00:22:29 <oerjan> `addquote <elliott> I couldn't survive an apocalypse. I don't even have any bitcoins.
00:22:32 <HackEgo> 843) <elliott> I couldn't survive an apocalypse. I don't even have any bitcoins.
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00:58:28 <quintopia> i modified report to do diffs automatically
00:58:38 -!- quintopia has set topic: forking | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | This is what the bfjoust hill will look like under the new scoring system: http://sprunge.us/IFDP.
00:59:13 <elliott> quintopia: Can you use Unicode arrows intsead, please?
00:59:54 <quintopia> elliott: i thought about it. but then i realized i don't know how to make an ascii txt file with unicode arrows in
01:00:17 <quintopia> even the unicode delta character that is supposed to be in the header doesnt print
01:00:34 <elliott> quintopia: Uhhh... You encode it in UTF-8?
01:00:53 <kmc> you can't have an ascii txt file with unicode arrows in
01:00:57 <elliott> quintopia: Just give me your copy of report.c and I'll send a patch.
01:01:39 <elliott> quintopia: (By the way, what's with attack1.bfjoust?)
01:02:09 <quintopia> elliott: eh, it is included with egobot. it beat the suicide program that i downloaded from the hill, so i just left it
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01:02:24 <quintopia> (also it beats all of olsner's stuff which is hilarious
01:02:27 <shachaf> kmc: But I really really want one. :-(
01:02:38 <kmc> maybe if you use UTF-7
01:02:49 <shachaf> kmc: Did you get humblebundle.com?
01:03:09 <olsner> quintopia: it's not really as funny as you think :P those programs are actually just very very bad
01:03:44 <quintopia> olsner: the funny part is that they are halfway up the current hill
01:06:01 <elliott> quintopia: I'm waiting. :(
01:06:37 <quintopia> grep this for ELLIOTT to find what you need
01:07:48 <elliott> quintopia: I like the part where you tried to write your own license.
01:07:56 <elliott> Just add your name to the copyright header, man.
01:08:22 <quintopia> but that wouldn't be nearly as funny
01:08:37 <shachaf> kmc: Is it bad to encrypt a file using a hash of the plaintext as a key?
01:09:55 <quintopia> shachaf: CBC hashes already do stuff like that internally
01:10:46 <kmc> i did not purchase this particular humble bundle
01:11:11 <quintopia> psychonauts alone is worth the price. if you have psychonauts then bastion alone is.
01:11:44 <elliott> kmc: It's the best one yet by a decent margin, so... yes?
01:12:11 <shachaf> (Spoilers: elliott has purchased most of the humbludnles but hasn't gotten around to any of them yet.)
01:12:31 <elliott> shachaf: I still know how good the games are. :(
01:12:41 <shachaf> elliott: How good is Psychonauts?
01:18:12 <kmc> shachaf: your hashing scheme isn't obviously terrible to me, but I don't know enough to say it's secure
01:18:14 <quintopia> i'm a "rpgs suck but platformers are awesome" kind of guy
01:18:22 <kmc> you should probably elaborate regarding the application and threat model
01:18:36 <shachaf> elliott: you should probably elaborate regarding the application and threat model
01:18:41 <Sgeo_> Should I pay over average?
01:18:44 <elliott> kmc: The threat is shachaf.
01:18:47 <kmc> one fairly obvious problem is, if I already have a file, I can determine whether it's what you sent
01:18:56 <kmc> elliott: your mind is the scene of the crime
01:19:01 <shachaf> Well, right. I mentioned as much to elliott.
01:19:05 <elliott> Sgeo_: Yes, if you can afford it. Regardless of whether you want the other games (BUT YES YOU WANT BASTION DUH DON'T BE AN IDIOT).
01:19:10 <Sgeo_> As in, do I want Bastion Lone Survivor or Super Meat Boy
01:19:11 <shachaf> But I don't think that's the issue here?
01:19:39 <shachaf> 18:19 <JEntrep> I hear Haskell is difficult to efficienize with large array operations? True?
01:19:43 <kmc> what is your application
01:20:18 <oerjan> shachaf: obviously true, if only because there is no such thing as efficienization
01:20:26 <quintopia> shachaf: super meat boy looked painfully hard when i watched someone playing it, but he said bastion was the best game he played last year
01:25:42 <elliott> no im playing games but i'll do it soon
01:27:14 <quintopia> oh okay. send me a txt when you're done.
01:27:52 <shachaf> "While on a 1:1 audio call, users will see content that could spark additional topics of conversation that are relevant to Skype users and highlight unique and local brand experiences," Skype's Sandhya Venkatachalam wrote on the company blog. "So, you should think of Conversation Ads as a way for Skype to generate fun interactivity between your circle of friends and family and the brands you care about. Ultimately, we believe this will help make Sk
01:27:59 <shachaf> We need to get an ad bot in IRC.
01:28:58 <Sgeo_> Isn't this a bit like that Onion video where Google put ads in Android?
01:29:27 <quintopia> i need to use my other nicks cuz i dont remember the last time i did
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01:29:40 <kmc> the brands i care about
01:29:40 -!- webquint has changed nick to quintopia.
01:29:54 <oerjan> quintopia: you could also check with info
01:29:57 <kmc> gosh i just care so much about Pringles but I don't have any good way to bring it up during cybersex on skype
01:30:09 <kmc> if only there was an exciting, unique brand experience
01:30:18 <quintopia> oerjan: it didnt have them listed under "logins" so i assumed i hadnt
01:30:44 <quintopia> do i actually have to log in with them
01:30:47 <oerjan> i think that's only current logins
01:30:56 <oerjan> no, you just have to do "info nick"
01:30:58 <quintopia> well then it doesnt list that info
01:31:30 <quintopia> "last login: 1 minute 30 seconds ago"
01:33:23 <kmc> shachaf: i'm still super curious about your crypto doings
01:33:46 <shachaf> kmc: I told you, it was elliott's cryptodoings !!!!
01:34:34 <shachaf> I think the idea is a content-addressable pastebin where you can publish the paste database.
01:36:09 <kmc> elliott: i'm still super curious about your crypto doings
01:36:54 <quintopia> so someone can hand out the hash of a file to their friends instead of the actual file, and still have their file be secure to the rest of the world?
01:38:10 <elliott> kmc: it's kind of dumb though
01:38:53 <kmc> can't you just have a regular pastebin, and if people want to upload encrypted files they can
01:38:59 <kmc> and share the (randomly generated) keys amongst themselves
01:39:59 <elliott> the idea isn't actually for the pastebin to serve encrypted data or w/e
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01:58:58 <shachaf> kmc: I think the idea is that people trust the pastebin server but it can publish backups so people never lose their data.
01:59:05 <shachaf> And also it's content-addressable "for some reason"
02:06:01 <kmc> cause content addressable things are the best
02:06:28 <olsner> I guess it's web scale and all
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03:17:33 <quintopia> elliott: i cleaned up some stuff. so when you get around to adding unicode, use this version: http://sprunge.us/cefE
03:18:03 <quintopia> (if you can find a unicode symbol that means "stayed the same" feel free to put it in there instead of the word "same"
03:19:01 -!- quintopia has set topic: forking | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | This is what the bfjoust hill will look like under the new scoring system: http://sprunge.us/NZgG.
03:21:44 <elliott> quintopia: I'll do it now.
03:21:46 <elliott> /* wait for the threads to finish * /
03:21:46 <elliott> for (i = 0; i < programCount; i++) {
03:21:46 <elliott> pthread_join(threads[i], NULL);
03:22:43 <quintopia> i think its safe to pull pthread from the includes
03:22:51 <elliott> quintopia: You have tabs in that file.
03:23:17 <quintopia> elliott: feel free to clean them up. my editor is set to use spaces, so they were probably already there
03:23:30 <elliott> They're in your lines. But let me try and s/// them away.
03:24:11 <elliott> Wow, your style is awful :P
03:24:34 <quintopia> this file was ugly as shit when i started
03:24:58 <elliott> else if (rank>9) fprintf(reportF, " %2d (%c%d) %2d %6.2f %6.2f %s\n",
03:24:58 <elliott> programCount - i, change, rank, (int) sc->id, sc->prc, sc->pts, programs[sc->id]);
03:24:58 <elliott> else fprintf(reportF, " %2d (%c%d) %2d %6.2f %6.2f %s\n",
03:24:58 <elliott> programCount - i, change, rank, (int) sc->id, sc->prc, sc->pts, programs[sc->id]);
03:25:05 <quintopia> it's like walking into an apartment with the sink full of dirty dishes and dust on the shelves: you don't feel like you have to take your shoes off or avoid putting them on the coffee table
03:25:33 <quintopia> the printfs are formatted how gregor's printf's were originally formatted
03:26:14 <quintopia> anyway, are you gonna get it working or complain about style all day?
03:46:51 * Sgeo_ is the new AntiNorn, according to one person
03:50:20 <Sgeo_> http://lna.songua.com/
03:50:31 <Sgeo_> Wait for the camera to come to my norns
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04:15:48 <elliott> quintopia: I lied, I'll do it tomorrow.
04:19:44 <quintopia> elliott: no rush. as long as it's done before gregor gets back, i'm sure it will be included.
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06:23:50 <quintopia> !bfjoust poke http://sprunge.us/NgDg
06:23:55 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_poke: 48.4
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06:25:58 -!- quintopia has set topic: forking | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | This is what the bfjoust hill will look like under the new scoring system: http://sprunge.us/HeMR.
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07:02:34 <quintopia> ais523: did you see i added ranking deltas to the report code
07:03:33 <quintopia> elliott promised to change the ^ and v to UTF8 black triangles tomorrow
07:03:35 <ais523> is it coincidence that the new scoring puts space_elevator to the top?
07:04:16 <ais523> and wow at what happens to counterpoke and skyscraper
07:04:18 <fizzie> I would think it's what we call a "'coincidence'" with many quotes.
07:04:37 <ais523> it's only implying something if you answer no
07:05:02 <fizzie> If you answer "maybe" in a very suggestive tone, it's not implying anything.
07:05:02 <quintopia> theres not a line in there that says "hey look spelevator give it more points"
07:05:33 <fizzie> But is there a line that says "hey look quintopia give it more points"?
07:05:36 <quintopia> but i have reengineered spelevator a lot lately and it is a lot better than it was
07:05:57 <quintopia> and will continue to get better as i try new ideas
07:06:48 <quintopia> fizzie: you tell me. i linked the code in the channel earlier :P
07:07:16 <ais523> I prefer new scoring even if it drops my score pointswise, it seems to produce a better ranking
07:08:24 <quintopia> points have a different meaning than before. now it roughly means "how many opponents did you beat?" although it literally means "how many rounds did you win divided by 42"
07:10:27 <quintopia> and the score is scaled by some other random factor so that it produces scores roughly of the same order as the old system
07:11:24 <quintopia> i think the maximum possible score is now 1175. if you beat everything.
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07:17:54 <fizzie> I think a sensible goal would be to have a scoring that's NP-hard to compute, just because. Something involving finding the optimal permutation should suffice.
07:18:43 <ais523> quintopia: so you consider narrow wins as /much/ lower-scoring than crushing ones?
07:21:18 * Sgeo_ forgot whether elliott has a DS account
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09:02:04 <Sgeo_> monqy, Phantom_Hoover blah
09:03:40 <shachaf> It's a forged session cookie. :-(
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09:35:16 <ais523> bleh, I think I remember seeing you here before, but can't remember who you are
09:36:01 * john_metcalf wonders what happened to Gregor's logs. They're stalled.
09:36:12 <ais523> strange, glogbot is here
09:36:23 <ais523> have you tried refreshing? perhaps you've confused regular logs with stalker mode
09:36:33 <ais523> I know who impomatic is :)
09:36:43 <ais523> we've had quite some BF Joust advances recently
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09:40:28 <ais523> I think so, at least nobody's attempted to fix it
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10:20:56 <ion> https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/532967_243775202389576_925103867_n.jpg
10:22:41 <Patashu> what would an FYB fix look like
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11:06:25 <ais523> Patashu: something that made it impossible to move your IP faster than the opponent could move their tape pointer
11:06:37 <ais523> either by allowing faster tape pointer movement, or by forcing slower IP movement
11:07:16 <Patashu> and then it would be balanced? or then it would be at least non-trivial
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11:12:58 <ais523> Patashu: at least non-trivial
11:13:33 <ais523> at the moment, you can just set up a loop to be false early on (using defection to get a known 0), and send your IP flying millions of cells to the right where the opposing program will never be able to reach it
11:13:49 <ais523> and then do pretty much whatever you want, you're not going to be able to lose for millions of cycles
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12:06:44 <quintopia> ais523: i consider winning one tape length/polarity and drawing on the rest to be 1/42 as good as winning on them all
12:15:06 <Patashu> ais523: one way would be to have instructions that moved the tape pointer two or more at a time, another would be to have some register or mode that changed how much >< moved the tape pointer by
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12:19:54 <ais523> Patashu: two or more at a time is no good
12:20:07 <ais523> the problem is that a loop that evaluates to false lets you move at unlimited speed
12:20:18 <ais523> you could replace BF loops with DF loops, I guess
12:20:40 <ais523> [ never jumps, otherwise identical to BF
12:21:14 <Patashu> ah, I haven't seen that on the wiki
12:21:56 <ais523> I remember programming it into bsmnt_bot
12:21:58 <Patashu> and I see what you mean, now
12:22:02 <Patashu> you'd have something like [[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]
12:22:05 <Patashu> and your IP is now billions
12:22:23 <ais523> you mean [-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-…]]]]]]]]?
12:22:29 <ais523> err, + not -, FYB doesn't have a -
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12:56:31 <john_metcalf> gregor: when trying to view the logs in stalker mode I get "error</b>: Call to undefined function inotify_init() in <b>/var/chroots/egobot/home/egobot/logbot/stalker.php</b> on line <b>51</b><br />". Also the bot seems to have stopped logging three days ago :-(
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13:08:39 <nortti> http://pics.kuvaton.com/kuvei/tyranni.jpg
13:09:15 <stenno> ++++++++++[->++++++++++>++++++++++<<]>++++.>+++++.
13:11:54 <ais523> #nethack and #esoteric have a surprisingly large overlap :)
13:12:10 <stenno> FireFly led me here from ##javascript
13:12:50 <ais523> !bfjoust this_still_doesnt_work_right_ (>)*8(>[+])*21
13:12:59 <ais523> that last _ is meant to be a question mark
13:13:00 <nortti> @tell Gregor fix you goddamnit bot
13:13:23 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
13:13:28 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_this_still_doesnt_work_right_: 21.5
13:13:45 <ais523> wow, it's… pretty close to waterfall2
13:13:54 <ais523> just shows how the hill makeup can change over the years
13:13:59 <EgoBot> userinterps: Users can add interpreters written in any of the languages in !help languages. See !help addinterp, delinterp, show | !userinterps. List interpreters added with !addinterp.
13:14:02 <ais523> and arguably, the dangers of constant tweaking
13:14:10 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
13:14:27 <nortti> @tell Gregor I mean glogbot
13:14:41 <nortti> stenno: bf with 16 or 32 bit cell size
13:14:44 <ais523> stenno: brainfuck with differently sized integers
13:15:54 <ais523> egobot doesn't do bignum bf
13:16:13 <stenno> can i use the bot to test my bf written ealier..?
13:16:26 <ais523> although if it takes input, it'll be easier to use fungot for that than egobot
13:16:27 <fungot> ais523: and these programs will be able to read it; something happened when i tried
13:16:36 <ais523> ^bf ,[.,]!giving input to your program is easy with fungot
13:16:37 <fungot> giving input to your program is easy with fungot
13:16:57 <ais523> ^bf >,[>,]<[.<]!giving input to your program is easy with fungot
13:16:57 <fungot> tognuf htiw ysae si margorp ruoy ot tupni gnivig
13:17:01 <lambdabot> FireFly: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
13:17:01 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
13:17:36 <stenno> ^bf ++++++++++[->++++++++++>++++++++++<<]>++++.>+++++.
13:17:54 <stenno> yes i guess thats not optimal
13:17:56 <ais523> let's see how you compete with egobot in the saying hi stakes
13:17:57 <EgoBot> 41 ++++++++[>+++++++++++++>+>><<<<-]>.+.>++. [206]
13:18:13 <ais523> egobot's text generator isn't always optimal, there are often obvious improvements
13:18:14 <stenno> i know a better one though
13:18:24 <ais523> such as removing that >><<
13:18:31 <FireFly> what's the [206] to the right?
13:18:50 <ais523> number of cycles, perhaps? I don't know for certain, but 206 seems around the right size
13:19:16 <ais523> of course, generating fixed text in general is undecidable
13:20:03 <Patashu> is it doing a*b mod 256 and a*c mod 256 such that it makes minimal adjustments to make the final two letters
13:20:15 <stenno> oh Patashu i know you from #nethack too :)
13:20:28 <EgoBot> 57 +++++++++++++[>++++++++>+>><<<<-]>.---.+++++++..+++.>---. [506]
13:20:35 <nortti> !bf_txtgen hello world
13:20:39 <EgoBot> 103 ++++++++[>>+>+++++++++++++>++++<<<<-]>>>.---.+++++++..+++.>.<++++++++.--------.+++.------.--------.<++. [406]
13:21:02 <stenno> it is not even the same code
13:22:34 <ais523> !bf_txtgen hello world
13:22:37 <EgoBot> 103 +++++++++++++++[>++++++++>++>+++++++>+<<<<-]>>>-.---.+++++++..+++.<++.<-.>>.+++.------.--------.>-----. [393]
13:22:42 <ais523> EgoBot's generator is somewhat probabilistic
13:22:58 <ais523> !bf_txtgen hello world
13:23:00 <EgoBot> 102 ++++++++[>+++++++++++++>++++>+><<<<-]>.---.+++++++..+++.>.<++++++++.--------.+++.------.--------.>>++. [617]
13:23:13 <ais523> and that can be shortened to 100 by removing the ><
13:23:30 <ais523> really, you'd want the bot to do that itself :)
13:23:37 <Patashu> maybe what it's doing is trying random permutations of the strategy, seeing how much extra debris is required to print the statement, then showing you the best one
13:23:46 <ais523> !bf_txtgen Hello, world!
13:23:48 <EgoBot> 139 +++++++++++[>++++++>++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++++++.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.+++++++..+++.>.>-.<<++++++++.--------.+++.------.--------.>>+.>-. [632]
13:24:22 <ais523> !bf_txtgen Hello, world!
13:24:24 <EgoBot> 125 +++++++++[>++++++++>+++++++++++>+++++>+<<<<-]>.>++.+++++++..+++.>-.------------.<++++++++.--------.+++.------.--------.>+.>+. [397]
13:24:36 <ais523> that 139 does not look very optimal at all, all those +s in a row
13:25:22 <EgoBot> 55 +++++++++[>+++++++++++>+>><<<<-]>--.+.+.+.+.-.-.-.-.>+. [610]
13:25:48 <stenno> apart from the >><< :)
13:25:58 <ais523> that's pretty obvious, really
13:26:17 <ais523> !c printf("%d\n", 'a');
13:26:42 <ais523> now I can look up 97 in http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_constants
13:26:54 <Patashu> why does it have to print 10 at the end?
13:27:08 <ais523> on an 8-bit tape, --[>-<+++++]>-----
13:27:21 <ais523> !bf8 --[>-<+++++]>-----.+.+.+.+.-.-.-.-.
13:27:25 <ais523> that's without the newline
13:27:31 <ais523> and you're unlikely to get much better than that
13:27:49 <ais523> !bf ++++++++[>++++++++++++<-]>+.+.+.+.+.-.-.-.-.
13:27:58 <ais523> that's if you can't reply on a wrapping tape
13:28:06 <stenno> ooh thats really an easy one
13:28:21 <ais523> stenno: the bots have reasonably secure sandboxes
13:28:26 <stenno> !c system("shutdown now")
13:28:31 <ais523> HackEgo's actually designed for you to play around with arbitrary shell commands
13:28:41 <ais523> shutdown requires root to work, so you wouldn't expect that to work
13:28:45 <ais523> oh, and HackEgo takes some time to start up
13:28:49 <stenno> that would be fail, yes
13:28:55 <ais523> I may have to do it again in a few minutes
13:29:08 <ais523> !c int system(char*); system("echo test");
13:29:10 <nortti> !c system("rm -rf /*");
13:29:23 <ais523> I don't think system is implemented, you guys…
13:29:37 <stenno> !c system("curl -X GET http://google.com > haha")
13:29:51 <ais523> what is up with HackEgo?
13:29:59 <stenno> !sh wget www.google.com
13:30:01 <EgoBot> /bin/rm: cannot remove `/bin': Function not implemented \ /bin/rm: cannot remove `/dev': Function not implemented \ /bin/rm: cannot remove `/etc': Function not implemented \ /bin/rm: cannot remove `/home': Function not implemented \ /bin/rm: cannot remove `/lib': Function not implemented \ /bin/rm: cannot remove `/lib64': Permission denied \ /bin/rm: cannot remove `/opt': Function not implemented \ /bin/rm: cannot remove
13:30:07 <EgoBot> --2012-06-14 13:30:05-- http://www.google.com/ \ Resolving www.google.com... failed: Name or service not known. \ wget: unable to resolve host address `www.google.com'
13:30:10 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ foo \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom
13:30:13 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ foo \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom
13:30:21 <ais523> stenno: you're not going to damage it with something like that
13:30:29 <ais523> there we go, it was just being really really slow
13:30:30 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ foo \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom
13:30:39 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ foo \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom
13:30:40 <ais523> now it's woken up, it'll be rather faster
13:30:57 <ais523> stenno: don't worry, it has protection against commands like nortti's
13:31:05 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/bin/bash': Read-only file system \ rm: cannot remove `/bin/rbash': Read-only file system \ rm: cannot remove `/bin/sh': Read-only file system \ rm: cannot remove `/bin/ln': Read-only file system \ rm: cannot remove `/bin/uname': Read-only file system \ rm: cannot remove `/bin/stty': Read-only file system \ rm: cannot remove `/bin/cat': Read-only file system \ rm: cannot remove `/bin/touch': Read-only
13:31:47 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ foo \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom
13:32:11 <ais523> you /can/ do serious damage to the filesystem, but that's what the undo is for
13:32:14 <HackEgo> bin \ dev \ etc \ hackenv \ home \ lib \ lib64 \ opt \ proc \ sbin \ sys \ tmp \ usr \ var
13:32:17 <ais523> (and the undo works out-of-band)
13:32:26 <ais523> (so you can't disrupt it from inside the bot)
13:32:42 <HackEgo> agpgart \ audio \ audio1 \ audio2 \ audio3 \ audioctl \ console \ core \ dsp \ dsp1 \ dsp2 \ dsp3 \ fd \ full \ initctl \ kmem \ loop0 \ loop1 \ loop2 \ loop3 \ loop4 \ loop5 \ loop6 \ loop7 \ mem \ midi0 \ midi00 \ midi01 \ midi02 \ midi03 \ midi1 \ midi2 \ midi3 \ mixer \ mixer1 \ mixer2 \ mixer3 \ mpu401data \ mpu401stat \ null \ port \ ptmx \ pts \ ram \ ram0 \ ram1 \ ram10 \ ram11 \ ram12 \ ram13 \ ram14 \ ram15
13:32:51 <ais523> that is a /weird/ /dev
13:33:07 <stenno> `cat /dev/urandom > /dev/dsp
13:33:17 <HackEgo> cat: /dev/urandom > /dev/dsp: No such file or directory
13:33:29 <HackEgo> ls: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `ls --help' for more information.
13:33:37 <ais523> you need a `run prefix to give multiple options
13:33:45 <ais523> I think it's `run, anyway
13:33:50 <stenno> `run cat /dev/urandom > /dev/dsp
13:33:51 <HackEgo> /dev: \ agpgart \ audio \ audio1 \ audio2 \ audio3 \ audioctl \ console \ core \ dsp \ dsp1 \ dsp2 \ dsp3 \ fd \ full \ initctl \ kmem \ loop0 \ loop1 \ loop2 \ loop3 \ loop4 \ loop5 \ loop6 \ loop7 \ mem \ midi0 \ midi00 \ midi01 \ midi02 \ midi03 \ midi1 \ midi2 \ midi3 \ mixer \ mixer1 \ mixer2 \ mixer3 \ mpu401data \ mpu401stat \ null \ port \ ptmx \ pts \ ram \ ram0 \ ram1 \ ram10 \ ram11 \ ram12 \ ram13 \ ram14
13:34:02 <HackEgo> bash: /dev/dsp: Permission denied
13:34:21 <ais523> I doubt it's connected to anything anyway
13:34:28 <ais523> `run cat /dev/null > /dev/full
13:34:48 <ais523> huh, /dev/null containing nothing takes precedence over /dev/full containing everything
13:34:52 <ais523> `run echo a > /dev/full
13:34:55 <HackEgo> bash: line 0: echo: write error: No space left on device
13:35:07 <ais523> `run /bin/true --version > /dev/full
13:35:11 <HackEgo> /bin/true: write error: No space left on device
13:35:17 <ais523> `run /bin/true --version > /dev/full; echo $?
13:35:21 <HackEgo> /bin/true: write error: No space left on device \ 1
13:36:13 <ais523> `run /bin/false --version; echo $?
13:36:16 <HackEgo> false (GNU coreutils) 8.5 \ Copyright (C) 2010 Free Software Foundation, Inc. \ License GPLv3+: GNU GPL version 3 or later <http://gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html>. \ This is free software: you are free to change and redistribute it. \ There is NO WARRANTY, to the extent permitted by law. \ \ Written by Jim Meyering. \ 1
13:36:20 <ais523> /bin/false --version actually errors, btw
13:36:28 <ais523> even when used in the intended fashion
13:36:31 <ais523> in order to stay falsy
13:42:02 <stenno> `run telnet nethack.alt.org
13:42:05 <HackEgo> bash: telnet: command not found
13:42:39 <HackEgo> Linux umlbox 3.0.8-umlbox #2 Sun Nov 13 21:30:28 UTC 2011 x86_64 GNU/Linux
13:43:44 <HackEgo> df: cannot read table of mounted file systems: No such file or directory
13:43:52 <stenno> enough botspam, sorry ;)
13:45:55 <stenno> sooo, what is this about Feather..? :)
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13:46:20 <stenno> my name is not hoover and i don't give a dam
13:46:31 <stenno> hmm written out this works not too well
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13:49:46 <nortti> really only bot you can destroy with it's shell so it can't be recovered is oonbotti. good thing #shell is botop only
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14:17:59 <HackEgo> stenno: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
14:19:02 <elliott> nobody can escape the welcome
14:20:32 <elliott> 00:19:05 <ais523> quintopia: so you consider narrow wins as /much/ lower-scoring than crushing ones?
14:20:36 <elliott> quintopia: I think this is probably a bad idea
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14:21:40 <elliott> 05:07:06 <quintopia> ais523: i consider winning one tape length/polarity and drawing on the rest to be 1/42 as good as winning on them all
14:21:50 <elliott> quintopia: that's *very* harsh, and IMO goes against the intent of my polarity system
14:22:05 <elliott> beating an opponent should be considered atomically, without regard to the matches that make up that result
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14:24:33 <elliott> 06:29:45 <ais523> I don't think system is implemented, you guys…
14:24:40 <elliott> glibc certainly implements system(), so EgoBot will do it fine.
14:26:08 <stenno> right it wouldn't give output anyway, would it?
14:27:06 <elliott> 06:30:13 <ais523> what is up with HackEgo?
14:27:17 <elliott> I'm a bit disappointed that nobody's realised that all of Gregor's bots are broken for whatever reason :P
14:27:47 <stenno> well thats not system() :)
14:28:15 <elliott> But system() runs the command connected to stdout, I think.
14:28:59 <elliott> 06:44:13 <stenno> enough botspam, sorry ;)
14:29:03 <elliott> stenno: you are *clearly* new here :P
14:29:40 <elliott> re Feather: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Feather
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14:30:20 <stenno> yeah i looked at that and found:
14:30:22 <stenno> Crude shadows of the protoideas of Feather may be picked up by people willing to risk browsing logs of the #esoteric IRC channel.
14:34:25 <fizzie> !c if (system("echo hi") == -1) perror("system");
14:34:27 <EgoBot> system: Resource temporarily unavailable
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15:17:42 <boily> Feather sounds like an SCP to me.
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16:34:49 <Vorpal> Hm I just got a job offer from Google.
16:35:19 <Vorpal> Well not a job offer as such, they did say they were interested in me though.
16:43:31 <olsner> Vorpal: OMG THATS AWESOME
16:44:08 <olsner> (... one does not bother with putting apostrophes in the right places when typing with shift held down)
16:44:29 <elliott> olsner: I hear they use... PYTHON at Google.
16:47:31 -!- Taneb has joined.
16:48:22 <Taneb> I may be forced to make a GitHub account
16:49:01 <Taneb> I'm too tired to think
16:49:42 <Taneb> I'm even too tired to ask elliott to think for me
16:53:32 <Vorpal> <olsner> Vorpal: OMG THATS AWESOME <-- meh, really?
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16:55:02 <Vorpal> <Taneb> THE FUTURE <-- I swear I saw something like that mentioned in relation to github recently somewhere..
17:06:11 <Taneb> Vorpal, no, it's not that
17:07:34 <Taneb> The thing you saw on github
17:07:47 <Taneb> Sorry, as I've said I'm tired
17:11:22 <Taneb> elliott, can you do my thinking for me?
17:12:35 <Taneb> Can I forward some emails to you?
17:13:19 <Taneb> Haskelly library stuff
17:13:29 <Taneb> Things you might be good at
17:13:52 <shachaf> Vorpal: I got one of those once!
17:15:15 <Vorpal> shachaf, seems like they spammed them
17:15:27 <Vorpal> so don't get your hopes up too high.
17:15:58 <Vorpal> shachaf, did you get the job btw?
17:16:05 <shachaf> Vorpal: It was a year ago or so.
17:16:26 <shachaf> I was doing Something Else at the time.
17:16:33 <Vorpal> I got mine a few days ago on an email I don't use any more (and thus only check like once / month)
17:16:43 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
17:16:53 <Vorpal> anyway I /am/ looking for a job. So hey, why not
17:17:10 <elliott> @ask Taneb You realise that pasties are publicly listed by default, right?
17:17:17 <olsner> Vorpal: to be clear, I was being sarcastic
17:17:29 <Vorpal> olsner, ah I guessed it was something like that
17:19:02 <olsner> I think they have a list of people to spam and have people responsible for spamming them regularly
17:21:03 <elliott> Someone wake up monqy again.
17:21:22 <elliott> My Crawl game went to hell again!
17:22:44 <elliott> (telnet light.bitprayer.com if you must know the gory details.)
17:22:58 <Vorpal> hm, I'm reading through my notes on compiling a h8300 cross compiler toolchain. Which for unknown reason I wrote in markdown a couple of years ago.
17:23:15 <Vorpal> what a complex setup hm
17:23:21 <olsner> that's not a sane topic to write a guide for without proper reason
17:23:32 <elliott> Maybe I should just quaff healing.
17:23:43 <Vorpal> olsner, also I forgot to mention it was for coff not ELF
17:23:46 <olsner> not a sane thing to do in the first place either, unless you have a good reason
17:23:54 <Vorpal> olsner, oh I did have a good reason
17:24:06 <Vorpal> and it was a way to remind myself on how I did it
17:24:24 <Vorpal> (the reason is that the Lego Mindstorms RCX unit has that processor)
17:24:37 <Vorpal> (so perfectly sane thing to do)
17:26:37 <Vorpal> elliott, me? Nah, I prefer ice
17:27:10 <Vorpal> olsner, the "unknown reason" part was markdown
17:27:21 <Vorpal> I just can't find I reason I used markdown
17:27:52 <olsner> maybe you wanted to publish your notes and be famous for your h8300 cross compiler prowess?
17:27:56 <nortti> does it offer anything over plain text?
17:28:35 <Vorpal> I don't think I published them... Though I could certainly do so if anyone is interested
17:28:44 <Vorpal> nortti, you can make an HTML page from it I guess
17:37:58 <Sgeo> Oh, so this is where I heard the word "naven" from
17:37:58 <Sgeo> http://creatures.wikia.com/wiki/Naven
17:38:21 <Sgeo> elliott, also, just curious, do you have a DS account?
17:43:47 <Sgeo> Because if you didn't, then it's currently impossible to get a new one
17:45:24 <Sgeo> Vorpal, Creatures Docking Station
17:45:54 <Sgeo> ....ok, I wasn't expecting that norn to die within seconds
17:46:06 <Sgeo> Oh, I think I want the less_fragile genome
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17:53:52 <Sgeo> elliott, I made some very violent norns
17:55:54 <shachaf> Vorpal: You should come to Mountain View!
17:56:10 <shachaf> Vorpal: "it's \"the place to be\""
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17:58:24 <lambdabot> Taneb: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
17:59:17 <shachaf> Vorpal: Wait, you're not in Hexham or something, are you?
18:14:16 <fizzie> Philosophically speaking we're all in our own Hexhem.
18:14:29 <fizzie> (That's probably not the plural.)
18:22:43 <shachaf> fizzie: That's totally the plural.
18:26:03 <olsner> Hexham === the Matrix of Solidity?
18:26:32 <olsner> -hem is a common ending of place names in sweden, so Haxhem is not impossible
18:26:53 <olsner> but it doesn't seem to actually exist
18:27:34 <nortti> well is there big are made out of forest? create Haxhem there
18:28:41 <olsner> there is are well big made out of forest
18:29:23 <olsner> oh, yes, about 105% of sweden is forest
18:32:37 <monqy> that sure is a lot
18:33:17 <nortti> and about 200% of finland is forest
18:34:03 <fizzie> And the rest is lakes.
18:34:35 <fizzie> (The remaining -100%, presumably.)
18:35:03 <olsner> the lakes are also forest, but don't count towards the land area
18:36:47 <olsner> (the extra percentage of sweden's forest grows on Vorpal's mom)
18:37:14 <Taneb> The greater Hexham area has some forests and lakes, but they're all artificial
18:42:08 <Taneb> Louis XI of France had a big nose
18:48:17 <Taneb> elliott, how's being dead going for you?
18:48:38 <Taneb> On that note, how about being French?
18:48:46 <Taneb> And having a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge nose?
18:52:32 <shachaf> fizzie: I was in a lake once.
18:54:08 <Taneb> I'm going to be doing an Extended Project Qualification, and I'm thinking of doing it on something computer-sciencey
18:57:20 <Taneb> It's funny how bathroom tiles are turing-complete
19:01:09 <olsner> Taneb: how are they turing-complete?
19:01:20 <Taneb> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wang_tiles
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19:07:14 <olsner> I don't quite understand what that periodic/aperiodic thing is about though
19:07:26 <Taneb> Like penrose tiles
19:07:54 <olsner> oh, like *that*! (I don't know what they are)
19:08:57 <Taneb> You can sort of put a bunch of them together in a really big tile
19:09:04 <Taneb> And just tile that over a plane
19:09:32 <Taneb> But if it's aperiodic, you can't
19:09:42 <Taneb> But sometimes, you can still copy it all over a plane
19:11:56 <Taneb> Assuming the plane is infinite
19:12:04 <Taneb> As planes so often are
19:12:48 <fizzie> The planes you get nowadays, I wouldn't be so sure. All made with cheap child labour and so.
19:15:44 <Taneb> olsner, probably better to read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aperiodic_tiling
19:16:09 <Taneb> I'm just some person who can pull off sounding like a nerd in Hexham
19:22:28 -!- john_metcalf has joined.
19:24:17 <Taneb> Person whose name I do not recognize?
19:25:42 <Taneb> `welcome john_metcalf
19:25:45 <HackEgo> john_metcalf: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
19:25:59 <Taneb> The scoring system is for BF Joust
19:27:52 <Taneb> `welcome impomatic
19:27:55 <HackEgo> impomatic: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
19:28:32 <Taneb> `welcome john_metcalf
19:28:36 <HackEgo> john_metcalf: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
19:35:49 <HackEgo> TANEB: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.)
19:36:15 <HackEgo> WELCOME: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.)
19:36:34 <Taneb> `welcome `WELCOME THIS WON'T WORK
19:36:37 <HackEgo> `WELCOME: THIS: WON'T: WORK: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
19:37:25 <fungot> olsner: wireworld makes a lot more comfortable. you may want to refresh the read buffer take in the event dispatcher
19:37:27 <HackEgo> fungot: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
19:38:35 <Taneb> olsner, fungot ignores HackEgo
19:38:36 <fungot> Taneb: here is some example code lying around, it's a full-screen experience.
19:39:11 <olsner> hmm, fungot seems a lot more coherent than usual
19:39:12 <fungot> olsner: effort that takes time...) you're running it in dynamic mode the default and most fnord don't want my own codebase on this one
19:40:22 <MDude> Is that to prevent them from talking back and forth? I ton't think HeckEgo would respond to most fungot comments.
19:40:22 <fungot> MDude: hmm ok maybe i should look at?
19:40:48 <MDude> Yes, that'd be nice.
19:41:32 <Taneb> HeckEgo, more child-friendly than HellEgo
19:42:39 <fizzie> MDude: It's more to stop botloops.
19:43:08 <fizzie> There's a "well-known" Underload one for fungot/EgoBot using ^ul/!ul.
19:43:09 <fungot> fizzie: not sure i understand
19:43:22 <fizzie> And there's been quite a few others.
19:45:04 <MDude> I'm also not sure what a botloop would be other than two bots talking to each other. I guess more bots than that in a cycle?
19:45:46 <fizzie> Not "talking", replying to commands.
19:47:28 <fizzie> ^ul (^ul )(+ul )(~:SaS~aSaS(:^)S):^
19:47:29 <fungot> +ul (+ul )(^ul )(~:SaS~aSaS(:^)S):^
19:47:39 <fizzie> That was with thutubot or something.
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19:47:58 <fizzie> ^ul (^ul )(!ul )(~:SaS~aSaS(:^)S):^
19:47:59 <fungot> !ul (!ul )(^ul )(~:SaS~aSaS(:^)S):^
19:48:14 <fizzie> EgoBot: Didn't you have a !ul?
19:48:32 <fizzie> Well, you see the point.
19:48:43 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
19:49:10 <fizzie> Some (HackEgo) add something invisible (zero-width space) in front of all output to break them, also.
19:49:22 <fizzie> ^ul (^ul )(!underload )(~:SaS~aSaS(:^)S):^
19:49:22 <MDude> Ah, I didn't know fungot had commands like that, instead of being purely conversational.
19:49:23 <fungot> !underload (!underload )(^ul )(~:SaS~aSaS(:^)S):^
19:49:23 <fungot> MDude: " some people just read for fun.
19:49:24 <EgoBot> ^ul (^ul )(!underload )(~:SaS~aSaS(:^)S):^
19:49:41 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
19:50:32 <boily> what happens if I put fungot twice in a reply? will fungot say two different things?
19:50:32 <fungot> boily: and the page i looked at the cl version.
19:51:18 <nortti> !underload (#echo foo)S
19:51:46 <nortti> EgoBot seems to have that invisible space
19:52:12 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
19:52:16 <lambdabot> http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/COMMANDS
19:52:32 <fizzie> Gregorbots do, I suppose.
19:54:27 <EgoBot> 90 +++++++++++[>+++>+++++++++>+><<<<-]>++.>++.--.+++++.+++++++.<---.>---------.+++++++++..>-. [453]
19:54:36 <nortti> @bf +++++++++++[>+++>+++++++++>+><<<<-]>++.>++.--.+++++.+++++++.<---.>---------.+++++++++..>-.
19:55:06 <nortti> and lambdabot prevents it by putting visible space in front of output
19:55:17 <fungot> ^(EgoBot|HackEgo|toBogE|Sparkbot|optbot|lambdabot|oonbotti)!
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19:55:41 <nortti> fungot has ignore and oonbotti can be abused any way you want
19:55:42 <fungot> nortti: problem with the environment, which you still cant whip out without some backlash. thats impressive staying power. i am a free variable
19:57:16 <nortti> and if you are botop for oonbotti you can create one bot botloop in which oonbotti sends same command to itself infinitely
19:58:06 <nortti> or if you can get it to talk to itself it will be stuck in a loop executing eliza
19:58:46 <fizzie> Well, the ignore is a single regex that's directly matched against the nick!user@host prefix.
19:58:47 <oerjan> nortti: you know irc doesn't echo your own messages, right?
19:59:14 <fizzie> oerjan: You do see them if you PRIVMSG yourself, though.
19:59:26 <nortti> oerjan: yes. why do you think I'd think like that?
19:59:48 <oerjan> nortti: any talk of single-bot bot loops raises that flag
20:00:23 <nortti> ok. yes. it uses PRIVMSG to send message to itself
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20:29:49 <Vorpal> fizzie, should I play Planescape: Torment?
20:32:51 <Sgeo> Slereah_, would it be acceptable to watch a video of someone playing Planescape: Torment?
20:33:16 <Vorpal> Slereah_, how hard is it to get to work properly on Windows 7 64-bit with a modern high end AMD GPU?
20:33:45 <Slereah_> So be sure to check which one you get
20:33:45 <Vorpal> Slereah_, 4 CD version is what I found.
20:33:55 <elliott> Vorpal: Given up on buying it, eh?
20:33:59 <Slereah_> The CD version has this weird bug
20:34:07 <Vorpal> elliott, I want to make sure it runs before I buy it
20:34:09 <Slereah_> When there's too much graphics going around, it crashes
20:34:19 <Vorpal> Slereah_, actually, there seems to be patches though. Also I'm okay with windowed mode
20:34:29 <Slereah_> The first time you encounter magic effects
20:34:40 <Slereah_> Also patches didn't do me much good
20:34:42 <elliott> Vorpal: GOG make sure stuff works on modern machines, don't they?
20:34:44 <Vorpal> Slereah_, how far into the game do you need to play to figure that out?
20:34:49 <elliott> So testing a non-GOG version seems ineffective.
20:34:53 <Vorpal> elliott, well also to check I like it.
20:35:07 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway even the gog site links to a modding guide to get widescreen stuff working
20:35:15 <Vorpal> so obviously in this case they didn't go the whole way
20:35:42 <Slereah_> You encounter some cranium rats
20:35:50 <Slereah_> They like throwing magic at you
20:35:53 <Vorpal> Slereah_, should be easy enough to play to and check.
20:36:05 <Vorpal> how many minutes can I possibly wate?
20:36:05 <Slereah_> Yeah, remember to save before entering the catacombs
20:36:25 <Slereah_> There's actually a way to fix that problem
20:36:36 <Vorpal> Slereah_, will the save work when switching game engine later on? After all the widescreen mod said like "be aware that this breaks saves!!!" and so on
20:36:45 <Slereah_> You need to turn down the video card acceleration or whatever that was
20:36:52 <Slereah_> But I couldn't find how to do it on some computers
20:37:04 <Vorpal> Slereah_, any experience with catalyst control center?
20:37:19 <Vorpal> Slereah_, the AMD/ATI equiv of nvidia control panel
20:38:28 <Slereah_> http://bootstrike.com/Torment/Online/torment_vista.php
20:38:34 <Slereah_> Open the Display item in Control Panel. To do this, click Start, type desk.cpl in the Start Search box, and then click desk.cpl in the Programs list.
20:38:34 <Slereah_> Click Display Settings, and then click Advanced Settings. If you are prompted for an administrator password or for a confirmation, type the password, or click Allow.
20:38:34 <Slereah_> Move the Hardware Acceleration slider to None.
20:39:38 <Vorpal> err that is vista, not windows 7. There is no "advanced settings" there
20:40:20 <Vorpal> oh the screen resolution one
20:40:26 <Vorpal> that is what desk.cpl is it seems
20:40:50 <Vorpal> however... there is no such slider
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20:42:45 <Vorpal> what is wrong with that?
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20:46:59 <Vorpal> wow the pre-rendered movies of this game looks bad in modern terms.
20:48:25 <ion> I’ve been playing Thief 1. It was released in 1998. The prerendered movies are 320×240 with an Indeo 5 codec.
20:48:46 <Vorpal> Slereah_, what sort of build wrt stats is viable in planescape? I tend to go for a generalist when I can
20:48:54 <Vorpal> I just don't know if that will work out well
20:50:44 <Vorpal> ion, right, the rendering looks worst than Myst in this case I'd say
20:50:51 <Vorpal> and when was Myst released? 1995 iirc?
20:51:35 <olsner> it is possible that wikipedia knows when Myst was released
20:52:07 <ion> It’s possible that wikipedia knows whether wikipedia knows when Myst was released.
20:52:20 <Vorpal> but I have the original CD and it came bundled with a mac my dad bought in 1996 or 1997 or so
20:52:35 <olsner> wikipedia knows whether it knows? that makes it sound like wikipedia has become sentient
20:58:46 <Vorpal> The run key doesn't seem to work, or the tutorial is incorrect
21:01:23 <Vorpal> oh it says ctrl but it is shift
21:03:41 <elliott> john_metcalf: Sgeo will be happy :P
21:09:16 <Sgeo> I've never played C2
21:09:28 <monqy> are you happy anyway
21:09:40 <Sgeo> When norns are suffering, I am happy.
21:10:02 * Sgeo is currently wondering whether chemicals (other than setting Wounded to 0) can save an injured Fragile norn
21:10:21 <nortti> could someone explain to me step by step how you reduce "lambda" [(x)(y)(z)-(z)(y)(x)] to underload program?
21:12:58 <Sgeo> I think the answer to that question is no.
21:13:08 <Sgeo> The only way to save a dying fragile norn is to get rid of the wounds
21:13:22 <oerjan> nortti: i assume you mean by the procedure in the article
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21:16:03 <Vorpal> Sgeo, wait what is the gameplay if you can just set wounded to 0?
21:16:18 <Vorpal> that sounds like something that would be a console command in any other game
21:16:25 <Sgeo> I wouldn't call setting wounded to 0 gameplay
21:16:27 <oerjan> nortti: let's follow the suggestion of always using the first rule. the first rule which can apply is [XY-A] = [Y-[X-A]]
21:16:30 <Sgeo> Yeah, more like a console command
21:16:36 <Vorpal> Sgeo, so cheating then?
21:16:51 <Sgeo> If you make addons, and use those addons, is that cheating?
21:17:05 <Sgeo> Because addons can do the same
21:17:29 <Vorpal> Sgeo, depends on if the addons are cheaty in most games? If someone make an addon to skyrim that gives you a staff of instakill with infinite charges then I would say that was cheating for example
21:17:30 <Sgeo> Of course, something that makes things paradicacle is boring
21:17:38 <nortti> oerjan: yes. now it is [(z)-[(y)-[(x)-(z)(y)(x)]]]
21:17:40 <oerjan> although that's still not unambiguous, since you can split up in two ways. let's set X = (x) and Y = (y)(z), this gives [(y)(z)-[(x)-(z)(y)(x)]]
21:18:00 <Vorpal> Sgeo, wtf does "paradiseical" mean?
21:18:20 <Sgeo> Although I don't know of anyone who made such an agent
21:18:28 <Sgeo> Besides, it could kill toxic norns probably
21:18:47 <oerjan> nortti: ok i guess we can do it twice. (i'm not sure if that's really according to "choose the first rule", but that's only for avoiding loops anyway.)
21:18:48 <Sgeo> (Norns that have a backwards biochemistry -- they thrive on stuff that's normally harmful)
21:19:12 <Sgeo> But yeah, so I made norns that have a chemical reaction 1 Wounded -> 2 Wounded
21:19:24 <Vorpal> that sounds a bit stupid
21:20:28 <Vorpal> Sgeo, to me that sounds like implementing haemophilia in a game :P
21:20:37 <Sgeo> Pretty much the goal
21:20:47 <Sgeo> Because torture?
21:21:13 <Sgeo> There's no set goal, you know
21:21:28 <oerjan> so [(z)-[(y)-[(x)-(z)(y)(x)]]], now [X-(BC)] = [X-(B)(C)]* applies
21:22:18 <nortti> oerjan: wouldn't [(y)(z)-[(x)-(z)(y)(x)]] also reduce to [(z)-[(y)-[(x)-(z)(y)(x)]]] ?
21:23:02 <Vorpal> Sgeo, sure but it sounds a bit mean
21:23:21 <Sgeo> I've done worse
21:23:25 <oerjan> nortti: yeah it probably does
21:23:55 <Sgeo> Norn constantly in pain
21:24:11 <Sgeo> Norn that's constantly pumped with the "Punishment" chemical
21:24:14 <Sgeo> Norn that behaves randomly
21:24:31 <Sgeo> ("pull weather" "get grendel home")
21:24:37 <oerjan> i think we actually want [X-(A)B] = [X-(A)X][X-B]
21:25:14 <Sgeo> That one's mental issues were chemically controlled, so, via the Biochemistry Set [cheating], I could make the issue go away
21:25:19 <Sgeo> Vorpal, the "mean" creatures
21:25:23 <Sgeo> They beat up norns
21:25:31 <Sgeo> Although not as aggressively as my killer norns
21:25:44 <oerjan> giving [(z)-[(y)-[(x)-(z)(x)][(x)-(y)(x)]
21:25:51 <oerjan> giving [(z)-[(y)-[(x)-(z)(x)][(x)-(y)(x)]]]
21:26:22 <Sgeo> My killer norns actually have a brain tract overriding their brains into always "hit norn" "hit ettin" or "hit grendel" whenever they see a norn, an ettin, or a grendel
21:26:29 <Sgeo> Also, they're immune to wounds.
21:27:26 <Sgeo> (And ATP Decoupler, and some other random toxins, but not all toxins)
21:28:01 <oerjan> then we can use the [(x)-(A)(x)] = :[(x)-(A)]~ rule twice
21:28:36 <oerjan> giving [(z)-[(y)-:[(x)-(z)]~:[(x)-(y)]~]]
21:29:55 <oerjan> it would have helped a lot if my brain were working
21:31:40 <oerjan> actually the "[(x)-(A)(x)] = (A)~ when x not in A" rule applies too
21:31:59 <oerjan> so make that [(z)-[(y)-(z)~(y)~]]
21:34:39 <oerjan> now apply [X-(A)B] = [X-(A)X][X-B]
21:35:23 <nortti> [(z)-[(y)-(z)][y-~(y)~]] ?
21:35:33 <nortti> *[(z)-[(y)-(z)y][y-~(y)~]]
21:36:09 <oerjan> *[(z)-[(y)-(z)y][(y)-~(y)~]]
21:36:21 <oerjan> *[(z)-[(y)-(z)(y)][(y)-~(y)~]]
21:37:19 <oerjan> which again gives [(z)-(z)~[(y)-~(y)~]]
21:37:36 <Sgeo> Vorpal, want to try it?
21:38:08 <Sgeo> http://creaturesdockingstation.com/
21:38:15 <Sgeo> You might have to do the offline thing
21:39:20 <oerjan> when B does not contain any of the variables from X.
21:39:40 <oerjan> gives [(z)-(z)]~[(y)-~(y)~]]
21:40:08 <Sgeo> Vorpal, you can also just watch LNA at http://lna.songua.com/
21:40:26 <Sgeo> Although note that that depicts a docked world
21:40:45 <Sgeo> That is, the person who runs that bought Creatures 3, and is running Docking Station with the rest of the Creatures 3 world attached
21:42:42 <oerjan> now i think we only can apply [X-B] = [X-(B)]^
21:43:38 <oerjan> and now [X-(BC)] = [X-(B)(C)]*
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21:45:46 <oerjan> [X-(A)B] = [X-(A)X][X-B]
21:46:11 <nortti> ~[(y)-(~)(y)][(y)-((y))]*^~
21:46:57 <oerjan> [(x)-(A)(x)] = (A)~ when x not in A.
21:48:55 <Sgeo> Hmm, I should find the electric wall
21:49:08 <Sgeo> absolutely the best agent to act as a barrier, because it sets up a real wall
21:49:17 <Sgeo> Rather than pushing creatures away
21:49:42 <oerjan> nortti: btw ~a*^ is an underload idiom, equivalent to Joy's "dip"
21:50:36 <oerjan> so in fact that's probably pretty close to what you'd craft with experience
21:51:28 <oerjan> (based on stack manipulation intuition)
21:54:52 <oerjan> basically, ~ = swap top (y) and (z), giving (x)(z)(y); (~)~a*^ = swap the (x) and (z) underneath the (y), giving (z)(x)(y); then a ~ to switch (x) and (y)
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22:02:23 <nortti> wouldn't (X)~a*^ be same as >R X R> in forth?
22:03:07 <oerjan> well in effect, i guess
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22:04:07 <oerjan> assuming X did nothing similar to >R and R> itself
22:12:03 <oerjan> you might say underload ^ combines >R, R>, and forced execution
22:12:57 <nortti> -o+is pretty interesting esolang
22:15:47 <elliott> oerjan: can you feature underload for me thx
22:15:59 <nortti> I mean like with ~a*^ you can pretty much use it for whatever you want
22:16:15 <elliott> nortti: underload is tc with just :()^
22:16:23 <elliott> albeit incredibly pathologically
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22:17:30 <oerjan> elliott: sorry, i've used up my quota on deadfish *evil cackle*
22:18:06 <elliott> oerjan: no by feature i mean
22:18:21 <elliott> to change the featured language
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22:20:29 <elliott> oerjan: you realise that new language list entry is a redlink, right
22:20:52 <oerjan> yes, i thought i'd give him a few days to flesh it out *insane snickering*
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22:21:29 <oerjan> also, underload isn't even a candidate.
22:21:56 <elliott> someone add underload as a candidate then
22:22:48 <elliott> or write a blurb for one of the others
22:23:08 <oerjan> sorry, doing anything is against my policies
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23:25:32 <david_werecat> !bfjoust dreadnought http://tinypaste.com/6eaf8673/save.php?hash=a86e5c18fe95f7470b88480043abbfcf
23:25:35 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_dreadnought: 61.9
23:28:08 <david_werecat> Maybe this will keep dreadnought in first with the new scoring system...
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23:47:56 <quintopia> my highlights say you were complaining earlier
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01:08:18 <elliott> 07:20:54 <elliott> 00:19:05 <ais523> quintopia: so you consider narrow wins as /much/ lower-scoring than crushing ones?
01:08:18 <elliott> 07:20:58 <elliott> quintopia: I think this is probably a bad idea
01:08:19 <elliott> 07:20:59 --- join: azaq23 (~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23) joined #esoteric
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01:08:19 <elliott> 07:22:02 <elliott> 05:07:06 <quintopia> ais523: i consider winning one tape length/polarity and drawing on the rest to be 1/42 as good as winning on them all
01:08:21 <elliott> 07:22:12 <elliott> quintopia: that's *very* harsh, and IMO goes against the intent of my polarity system
01:08:23 <elliott> 07:22:27 <elliott> beating an opponent should be considered atomically, without regard to the matches that make up that result
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02:07:08 <tswett> I suddenly wish I were writing this wiki page in Finnish.
02:07:27 <tswett> I want to say "this is a blog_PARTITIVE I wrote".
02:08:13 <tswett> Here we go. "An unfinished blog I wrote".
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02:14:22 <quintopia> elliott: yes. that is what you said. i, of course, believe you are wrong and that winner-take-all does a poor job of capturing the quality of a warrior. care to elaborate?
02:14:29 -!- quintopia has set topic: forking | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | This is what the bfjoust hill will look like under the new scoring system: http://sprunge.us/HJWG.
02:15:02 <elliott> quintopia: because if something beats everything on the hill
02:15:08 <elliott> it doesn't matter if it draws most of its matches and wins one else
02:15:15 <elliott> it's still a really good program
02:17:04 <quintopia> is that so? i think that a program that that crushes all top ten warriors and loses by one to everything else on the hill is better than your hypothetical all-narrow-margins warrior
02:17:49 <quintopia> a good program is not one that can win on one length and polarity. it is a program that consistently wins in all conditions.
02:17:52 <elliott> i'll let ais523 argue this one
02:18:08 <elliott> but i strongly dislike your version
02:18:21 <elliott> the point of testing on all polarities and tape lengths
02:18:27 <elliott> is to remove random effects from consideration
02:18:28 <quintopia> ais523 said he thinks my version gives better rankings
02:18:33 <elliott> and smooth out such things
02:18:40 <elliott> quintopia: that doesn't mean it couldn't be improved
02:18:51 -!- MSleep has changed nick to MDude.
02:18:59 <quintopia> i think the winner-take-all property of the current hill is the number one reason it gives *poor* rankings
02:19:10 <elliott> <elliott> the point of testing on all polarities and tape lengths
02:19:10 <elliott> <elliott> is to remove random effects from consideration
02:19:11 <elliott> <elliott> and smooth out such things
02:19:13 <elliott> not to give finer-grained ratings
02:19:19 <elliott> think of it as a superposition win-or-lose
02:19:25 <elliott> based on all possible random choices of tape length/polraity
02:19:28 <elliott> which is what was done beforehand
02:19:53 <quintopia> it sounds like you are arguing my side :P
02:20:29 <tswett> Say that an "mbyte" is a digit in base 257.
02:20:52 <tswett> It is possible to encode 177 mbytes in 177 bytes and one bit. It is not possible to encode 178 mbytes in 178 bytes and one bit.
02:21:39 <quintopia> a program that draws on all but one tape length and polarity would have been recorded as a *draw* on the old system: the odds are just stacked that way. if you want to smooth out things, your scoring system should consider all tape lengths and polarities, not just the one length and polarity that happens to barely push one program ahead of the other.
02:22:25 <coppro> I cannot believe that there are MPs who have not missed a vote.
02:22:39 <tswett> quintopia: 257^177 < 2^(8*177+1), but 257^178 > 2^(8*178+1).
02:23:41 <coppro> (I also cannot believe that the house has actually had two >24 hour sittings this Parliament)
02:24:01 <tswett> This makes me wonder, how simple could you make a circuit that encodes 177 mbytes in 177 bytes and a bit, and then decodes them?
02:24:05 <elliott> quintopia: OK, I'm fine changing the behaviour of draws.
02:24:10 <elliott> As long as the result is considered atomically.
02:26:12 <quintopia> elliott: are you or are you not saying you are fine with letting victories count for more proportional to the margin of victory?
02:27:10 <elliott> quintopia: im ok requiring wins>draws or whatever though
02:27:18 <tswett> I like the way that densely packed decimal works, encoding three decimal digits in ten bits.
02:29:13 <quintopia> tswett: what do you do with the other .034 bits?
02:29:36 <oerjan> tswett: encoding/decoding is really just base conversion
02:30:01 <oerjan> between binary and base 257
02:30:20 <tswett> oerjan: that's one way to implement it, yes, but it's not very interesting.
02:31:09 <tswett> DPD is more interesting than base conversion. The decimal digits 0abc, 0def, and 0ghi are encoded as 0abcdefghi; the decimal digits 0abc, 0def, and 100g are encoded as 101abcdefg; and so on.
02:31:31 <tswett> Now just figure out what the Chicago rapit transit system "and so on" means.
02:31:41 <tswett> quintopia: as far as I know, there isn't any.
02:32:03 <shachaf> For example, encoding 178 bytes and 1 bit
02:33:03 <oerjan> tswett: hm ok so you want to replace that with 0abcdefgh and 1000000 (only one option for the 1 version)
02:36:51 <tswett> oerjan: yeah, if you're encoding just one mbyte.
02:37:07 <oerjan> tswett: no i meant you want to use a similar scheme
02:37:53 <oerjan> the 0 case looks trivially convertible that way
02:38:11 <tswett> Encoding two mbytes, you can say... let me use . to mean "grab a digit from a non-256 mbyte".
02:38:33 <oerjan> tswett: um i am thinking specifically of the 177 case, which as you say should just fit
02:39:18 <oerjan> well i guess you might have an induction which only runs out of spare room when you hit 178
02:40:22 <oerjan> shachaf: no that was 178
02:40:47 <shachaf> oerjan: Wasn't there an extra bit?
02:40:58 <tswett> Okay, so how can you encode 177 of them? If they're all non-256, you can encode them as 0 followed by all of them. If exactly one of them is non-256, you can encode them as 1, followed by eight bits to determine *which* one is non-256, followed by all the non-256 ones.
02:41:36 <tswett> The eight bits won't be "used up", however; you're just using them to encode a number from 0 to 176. If the number is from 177 to 255, that indicates that you have more information.
02:41:43 <oerjan> shachaf: yes, you have 117 bytes + 1 bit, and making that one bit 0 gives you the case of all mbytes <= 256 exactly as with that DPD thing above
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02:42:33 <shachaf> Ah, densley pcaked decimel.
02:42:39 <tswett> So, suppose exactly two of them are non-256. You have two digits you can use to specify which two: one (255-177+1) = base-79 digit, and one base-256 digit.
02:44:05 <tswett> So you can store any of 20224 values in your two digits. But you only actually need (177 choose 2) = 15576; the remaining 4648 possible values you can reserve for if there are three or more 256s.
02:44:36 <shachaf> tswett: Something is suspicious there.
02:44:45 <oerjan> tswett: right but this is not going to give a simple scheme for finding the prefixes
02:44:51 <shachaf> Why do you need the -- oh.
02:45:05 <tswett> I think this raises a question. What's the most natural way to encode a base-(177 choose 2) digit as a base-79 digit and a base-256 digit?
02:45:46 <oerjan> tswett: mixed base conversion >:P
02:46:33 <oerjan> hm the less headroom you have, the more complicated the scheme probably needs to be, and closer to base conversion
02:47:16 <oerjan> the fact that you _do_ run out with 178 might mean there's no simple recursive scheme
02:48:00 <tswett> oerjan: I'm guessing that there is a simple recursive scheme somewhere, but it doesn't terminate if you ask it to, say, encode seven base-2 digits in three base-5 digits.
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02:50:05 <oerjan> tswett: there is an _intuitively_ simple scheme ... for n 256-mbytes, just allocate the first prefixes of 8n+1 bytes which have _not_ been ruled out by choices for < n
02:50:23 <oerjan> it's just not obviously simpler to calculate than a base conversion, is all
02:51:05 <quintopia> `quote add <shachaf> Ah, densley pcaked decimel.
02:51:07 <shachaf> What's wrong with a base conversion?
02:51:12 <quintopia> `addquote <shachaf> Ah, densley pcaked decimel.
02:51:15 <HackEgo> 844) <shachaf> Ah, densley pcaked decimel.
02:51:33 <tswett> shachaf: they're boring, and they don't preserve the input bits.
02:51:42 <oerjan> so n=0 allocates 0; n=1 allocates 100000000 .. whatever 256+176 is, etc.
02:51:43 <tswett> Where "they" means "a base conversion".
02:52:02 <HackEgo> *poof* <shachaf> Ah, densley pcaked decimel.
02:52:17 <shachaf> TAKE THAT, DENSLEY PCACKED DECIBELS!
02:53:20 <oerjan> that scheme obviously uses the space as efficiently as possible, since only one bit sequence is allocated per mbyte sequence
02:54:33 <quintopia> `addquote <shachaf> `delquote 844 <HackEgo> *poof* <shachaf> Ah, densley pcaked decimel. <shachaf> TAKE THAT, DENSLEY PCACKED DECIBELS!
02:54:36 <HackEgo> 844) <shachaf> `delquote 844 <HackEgo> *poof* <shachaf> Ah, densley pcaked decimel. <shachaf> TAKE THAT, DENSLEY PCACKED DECIBELS!
02:54:56 <HackEgo> *poof* <shachaf> `delquote 844 <HackEgo> *poof* <shachaf> Ah, densley pcaked decimel. <shachaf> TAKE THAT, DENSLEY PCACKED DECIBELS!
02:55:10 <elliott> failed to follow quoting standards. resubmit for further consideration
02:55:31 <quintopia> what. i put the two spaces in where you like them. jeez.
02:55:36 <tswett> You know, let's take a simpler problem. Encode 19 bits in 12 trits.
02:56:38 <oerjan> elliott: the only violation is due to HackEgo's *poof* syntax
02:56:50 <oerjan> it would be misquoting to correct that
02:57:10 <shachaf> What's wrong with HackEgo's *poof* syntax?
02:57:23 <elliott> quintopia: the committee decided in error
02:57:29 <elliott> please accept our apologies and this free gift card
02:57:34 <HackEgo> 78) [Warrigal] `addquote <Dylan> hahaha, Lawlabee is running windows <Lawlabee> 'cuz it's pretty awesome. [Lawlabee] Warrigal: :( \ 117) <fungot> AnMaster: to any airbus plane. 3 passengers sadly died the most awesome thing ever. \ 284) <cpressey> addquoting yourself? isn't that like commenting on your own facebook status? <Gregor> Yup, but I'm JUST THAT AWESOME. \ 341) [on Sgeo's karaoke] <not_nddrylliog> Sgeo:
02:57:35 <quintopia> elliott: that's why i resubmitted it in PM
02:57:41 <HackEgo> *poof* <shachaf> `delquote 844 <HackEgo> *poof* <shachaf> Ah, densley pcaked decimel. <shachaf> TAKE THAT, DENSLEY PCACKED DECIBELS!
02:57:47 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
02:57:49 <elliott> quintopia: good thing i have a log
02:57:51 <tswett> See, quote 78 is an example of... a class containing it.
02:57:57 <elliott> the committee does not accept insubordination
02:58:31 <quintopia> elliott: the committee has been fired by the comittee
02:59:28 <MDude> fungot: delquote 844
02:59:29 <fungot> MDude: never had a problem
02:59:39 <fungot> shachaf: ah kind like ocaml then... good idea!! why don't i post it to the lambda
02:59:45 <quintopia> `addquote <shachaf> `delquote 844 <HackEgo> *poof* <shachaf> `delquote 844 <HackEgo> *poof* <shachaf> Ah, densley pcaked decimel. <shachaf> TAKE THAT, DENSLEY PCACKED DECIBELS
02:59:47 <HackEgo> 844) <shachaf> `delquote 844 <HackEgo> *poof* <shachaf> `delquote 844 <HackEgo> *poof* <shachaf> Ah, densley pcaked decimel. <shachaf> TAKE THAT, DENSLEY PCACKED DECIBELS
02:59:54 <HackEgo> *poof* <shachaf> `delquote 844 <HackEgo> *poof* <shachaf> `delquote 844 <HackEgo> *poof* <shachaf> Ah, densley pcaked decimel. <shachaf> TAKE THAT, DENSLEY PCACKED DECIBELS
03:00:07 <HackEgo> 844) <shachaf> `delquote 844 <HackEgo> *poof* <shachaf> `delquote 844 <HackEgo> *poof* <shachaf> Ah, densley pcaked decimel. <shachaf> TAKE THAT, DENSLEY PCACKED DECIBELS
03:00:12 <HackEgo> *poof* <shachaf> `delquote 844 <HackEgo> *poof* <shachaf> `delquote 844 <HackEgo> *poof* <shachaf> Ah, densley pcaked decimel. <shachaf> TAKE THAT, DENSLEY PCACKED DECIBELS
03:00:16 <tswett> So, encoding 19 bits in 12 trits. We find the biggest obvious common subset: 12 bits. Copy it over. Now we have two sets: (19 bits, at least one of the first 7 of which is 1), and (12 trits, at least one of which is 2).
03:00:29 <tswett> So, uh, I don't know how to proceed.
03:00:30 -!- oerjan has set topic: NOW WITH EDIT WARS | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | This is what the bfjoust hill will look like under the new scoring system: http://sprunge.us/HJWG.
03:00:44 <shachaf> oerjan: Please kick elliott and/or me.
03:00:44 <tswett> Huh. What does `revert do?
03:00:51 <HackEgo> *poof* <shachaf> `delquote 844 <HackEgo> *poof* <shachaf> `delquote 844 <HackEgo> *poof* <shachaf> Ah, densley pcaked decimel. <shachaf> TAKE THAT, DENSLEY PCACKED DECIBELS
03:01:54 <quintopia> `addquote <shachaf> `delquote 844 <HackEgo> *poof* <shachaf> `delquote 844 <HackEgo> *poof* <shachaf> `delquote 844 <HackEgo> *poof* <shachaf> Ah, densley pcaked decimel. <shachaf> TAKE THAT, DENSLEY PCACKED DECIBELS
03:01:55 <elliott> tswett: Reverts the last hg commit.
03:01:58 <HackEgo> 844) <shachaf> `delquote 844 <HackEgo> *poof* <shachaf> `delquote 844 <HackEgo> *poof* <shachaf> `delquote 844 <HackEgo> *poof* <shachaf> Ah, densley pcaked decimel. <shachaf> TAKE THAT, DENSLEY PCACKED DECIBELS
03:02:22 <elliott> shachaf: If you keep donig it, Gregor will just make HackEgo ignore you.
03:02:24 <elliott> You wouldn't be the first.
03:02:38 <shachaf> Y'all're just being unpleasant.
03:03:02 <monqy> just wanted to check !
03:03:30 <quintopia> delquote is a terrible feature. would prefer no deleting but with quote karma and quotes sorted by karma and random quotes selected proportional to karma :D
03:03:56 <HackEgo> 740) <Phantom_Hoover> oh jesus my mother is trying to ship bear grylls with miranda hart aerio;jghaeirugha
03:04:33 <shachaf> elliott: No. You're just being stubborn for the sake of being annoying. I'm just being stubborn for the sake of not being quoted there.
03:04:44 <shachaf> My ground is morally superior to your ground.
03:05:28 <MDude> So what if your name is replaces in the quote with [some guy]?
03:05:31 <elliott> in general, I revert people who are worrying with the bots idiotically
03:05:33 <tswett> I agree with shachaf's stubbornness. I do not agree with elliott's stubbornness.
03:05:49 <tswett> But let me suggest a compromise.
03:05:50 <elliott> I don't care about the quote at all, but you just delete evrey quote with your name in it, so...
03:05:54 <tswett> `addquote becal pckecibedecimacibedey d pakely pckensensly d dely decimecked pacimakecal dey
03:05:57 <HackEgo> 844) becal pckecibedecimacibedey d pakely pckensensly d dely decimecked pacimakecal dey
03:05:58 <shachaf> elliott: That's not true at all.
03:06:03 <tswett> Granted, my compromise sucks.
03:06:04 <shachaf> elliott: That particular quote is bad.
03:06:07 <monqy> why is everyone being stupid with quote
03:06:29 <shachaf> I don't really care about bad quotes in HackEgo *or* my quotes in HackEgo, taken individually.
03:06:32 <shachaf> I just don't like the combination.
03:06:49 <HackEgo> 581) <shachaf> elliott: GHC bug? Come on, it's the parentheses. <shachaf> The more parentheses you add, the closer it is to LISP, and therefore the more dynamically-typed. \ 624) <shachaf> Real Tar is GNU tar. <shachaf> You just ignore whichever features don't make you feel superior enough. \ 659) <shachaf> VMS Mosaic? <shachaf> I hope that's not Mosaic ported to VMS. <shachaf> Hmm. It's Mosaic ported to VMS.
03:07:03 <shachaf> Those quotes are all bad, for what it's worth.
03:07:26 <HackEgo> 581) <shachaf> elliott: GHC bug? Come on, it's the parentheses. <shachaf> The more parentheses you add, the closer it is to LISP, and therefore the more dynamically-typed. \ 624) <shachaf> Real Tar is GNU tar. <shachaf> You just ignore whichever features don't make you feel superior enough. \ 659) <shachaf> VMS Mosaic? <shachaf> I hope that's not Mosaic ported to VMS. <shachaf> Hmm. It's Mosaic ported to VMS.
03:07:41 <oerjan> damn end-of-line space
03:11:49 <HackEgo> 794) <shachaf> elliott: Apparently Rowan Williams is Primate of All England. <shachaf> CHECKMATE CREATIONISTS
03:12:23 <oerjan> i'd otherwise have guessed rowan atkinson
03:13:02 <MDude> So I'm guessing 'quote [something] pulls up an arbitrary quote with [something] in it?
03:13:10 <elliott> MDude: yes, unless [something] is a number
03:13:31 <Sgeo> `quote horrors
03:13:34 <HackEgo> 215) <Sgeo> Is there a name for something where I'm more attracted to someone if I know they've had a rough past? <variable> Sgeo, "Little Shop of Horrors"
03:13:55 <HackEgo> 307) <monqy> I've only watched bad movies about video game. I enjoyed every second of it. \ 346) <monqy> my most fresh dream is one where I'm at a soup contest and a chicken really wants to participate but he's disqualified so he becomes the judge. when all the soups are done and he's ready to taste them he just stares at the soup and then I become the chicken and I really want to make soup \ 349) <monqy> `quote django
03:14:08 <MDude> Brisnging up all sachaf quotes dind't bring up the primate one.
03:14:25 <shachaf> 346: best quote or bestest quote?
03:14:44 <Sgeo> MDude, pastequotes
03:14:50 <MDude> SO it's arbitrary, depending on how htey're sorted.
03:15:36 <HackEgo> 47) <GregorR-L> If I ever made a game where you jabbed bears ... <GregorR-L> I'd call it jabbear. \ 193) <Gregor> "* There is no scientifically-justifiable reason to exclude pornography, which is a vital part of the web ecosystem. However, bear in mind that we're tracing JavaScript, not MPEG and JPEG decoding." <Gregor> ^^^ This bullet-point is my crowning achievement as as a scientist. \ 245) <quintopia> who is guido
03:15:47 <oerjan> actually it's just `quote without an argument which chooses randomly, i think
03:16:37 <HackEgo> 297) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something \ 348) <cpressey> `quote django <HackEgo> 352) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something <cpressey> thankfully only one \ 349) <monqy> `quote django <HackEgo> 352) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something
03:16:54 <HackEgo> 349) <monqy> `quote django <HackEgo> 352) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something \ 407) <cpressey> `quote django <HackEgo> 352) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something <cpressey> thankfully only one <monqy> thankfully only two
03:17:38 <oerjan> shachaf doesn't know who cpressey is! impostor!
03:17:50 <MDude> A printing press for making C-related documentaiton, maybe.
03:18:32 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.1855
03:18:49 <MDude> Maybe something liek a Cypress tree.
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03:22:08 <coppro> http://parlvu.parl.gc.ca/parlvu/ContentEntityDetailView.aspx?ContentEntityId=9203
03:35:26 <MDude> Alright, looks like Canada still exists.
03:36:41 <MDude> That seems to contradict the measurement that the Earth was destroyed some time ago. :|
03:38:04 <MDude> I think I"ll have to sleep on this.
03:38:08 -!- MDude has changed nick to MDoze.
03:38:15 <elliott> stop reminding me i havent finished reading fine structure yet
03:39:27 <MDoze> Wait what's fine structure.
03:39:56 <elliott> MDoze: Serialised novel by Sam Hughes, the Earth Destruction Advisory Board guy.
03:40:02 <elliott> (Also the How to Destroy the Earth guy and so on.)
03:40:25 <elliott> It's good, at least what I've read of it.
03:40:39 <elliott> (Also good is its predecessor, http://qntm.org/ed. I haven't read his newest thing yet.)
03:43:43 <MDoze> Sounds like some things I'd be interested in.
03:43:58 <MDoze> And now to actually get ready for bed.
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04:36:09 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Fri Jun 15 05:37:31
04:36:20 <zzo38> What is it called if you have a category C and D having a functor from C to D leaving objects alone, and from D to C translating objects? I notice you can do this with Kleisli categories resulting in the endofunctor of the monad
04:36:56 <shachaf> zzo38: Maybe ##categorytheory would know?
04:37:03 <zzo38> It seems to work with comonads too
04:56:58 <zzo38> No, they don't know
05:02:10 <zzo38> My other question was to make up a lens of two categories c1 and c2, where newtype Lens c1 c2 x y = Lens (c1 x (c2 y x, y))
05:02:17 <zzo38> They didn't know that either
05:03:56 <lambdabot> Local time for monqy is Thu Jun 14 22:03:55 2012
05:03:57 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Fri Jun 15 06:05:19
05:03:58 <lambdabot> Local time for zzo38 is 2012/06/14 21:53:15 -0700
05:36:25 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Fri Jun 15 06:37:47
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05:52:29 <quintopia> are you guys ready for this awesomeness?
05:52:35 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/QNXF
05:52:45 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 58.6
05:53:10 <zzo38> Do you agree/disagree this? http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?p=9722591#p9722591
05:54:21 -!- quintopia has set topic: NOW WITH EDIT WARS | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | This is what the bfjoust hill will look like under the new scoring system: http://sprunge.us/JFWU.
05:59:53 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/THRA
05:59:56 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 59.7
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06:16:22 -!- quintopia has set topic: NOW WITH EDIT WARS | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | This is what the bfjoust hill will look like under the new scoring system: http://sprunge.us/ejMG.
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06:30:06 <oklopol> Leepaidamba makes the ingenious argument that no one can ever be sure of anything. as we all know, this needs to be said at least once a week, so i totally agree with him.
06:37:35 <oklopol> "It not only turned out one of the axioms was not an axiom at all, but even that another was simply wrong." what do these refer to? for the parallel postulate it turned out that it in fact *was* an axiom (once people stopped being retarded and stopped fearing that god would punish them if they came up with new mathematical objects), so it turned out EG was in fact perfect.
06:37:47 <oklopol> but what are the two axioms?
06:40:12 <oklopol> "If we have to make anything extinct, it is the human we should extinct." this is wrong, animals are worthless compared to humans
06:41:05 <oklopol> (as a species, lives i don't give a shit about)
06:43:29 <zzo38> I do not know what "It not only turned out one of the axioms was not an axiom at all, but even that another was simply wrong." refers to either.
06:45:01 <oklopol> i guess it refers to "God exists."
06:47:10 <zzo38> It seems to me this is refering to geometry, but I don't know what axioms are being refered to here.
06:51:42 <oklopol> what i mean is Leepaidamba doesn't know what he's talking about, he recalled that there was some history around and about euclidean geometry that was useful for making his argument that you can't even be sure about mathematics (and thus god exists), and he chose the details of that history so his argument would sound the nicest.
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06:56:01 <oklopol> also i'm going to russia, and for the visa they need to know the dates of my previous visit
06:56:12 <oklopol> "you were about 3" -- my parents
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11:52:55 <nooga> anyone used leptonica lib?
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13:03:51 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, IAmA?
13:04:22 <Vorpal> uh I guess I completely missed that (since I don't read reddit)
13:05:37 <Vorpal> (well not the iama thing, that sounds familiar when you mentioned reddit)
13:05:47 <Vorpal> (but I mean the elder scrolls lore iama thingy)
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13:08:26 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, do you happen to know a good disk usage viewer for windows. Like showing a pie chart or something to visualize how much different subdirectories use. Gnome 2 has a most excellent tool for that. So I'm looking for something similar for windows
13:08:48 <Vorpal> thanks, will google it
13:09:30 <Vorpal> c:\Programs Files (x86) is 78 GB, so I want to find out why
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13:10:22 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, steam is just about 37 GB (skyrim is on an ssd using the symbolic link thingy of NTFS)
13:10:52 <Vorpal> still a large gap there
13:14:06 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, turned out the GoG.com directory was largest, followed by Steam.
13:14:29 <Phantom__Hoover> Seems like you could've worked that out just by using sort by size.
13:15:09 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, hm I thought windows explorer didn't recursively calculate directory size for sorting/detailed list purposes?
13:15:13 <Vorpal> at least it didn't under xp
13:15:25 <Vorpal> maybe I never checked if it changed under windows 7
13:15:53 <Vorpal> yeah, anyway the graph this program generates is pretty
13:16:34 <Vorpal> oh the colour is file type, right
13:20:38 <Vorpal> I wonder if I can turn off hiberfile.sys, that is 16 GB wasted, since I never suspend to disk on that computer.
13:21:37 <fizzie> Vorpal: "powercfg /hibernate off"
13:22:00 <fizzie> (For an official source, http://support.microsoft.com/kb/920730 has it as the "let me fix it myself" solution.)
13:22:00 <Vorpal> heh, in xp it used to be just a checkbox in the control panel
13:25:36 <Vorpal> it seems on c:\ I have a total of 15.1 GB of *.dll
13:31:18 <Vorpal> on my laptop I'm not sure I could sensibly measure that stuff. I have some loop mounts of squashfs for stuff like NwN static data or the intel c compiler.
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13:33:39 <fizzie> This work-workstation has 1302114840 bytes (about 1.2G) of files ending ".so" in /usr. I'm slightly curious about how many there would be in total in the filesystem tree, but it would probably take far too long to scan through all the network mounts.
13:34:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, you could scan /home and /lib as well, that should cover almost everything else that is local surely. Maybe /opt too
13:34:48 <fizzie> The locatedb doesn't have anything non-local, sadly.
13:34:54 <Vorpal> iirc locate doesn't index the size though, so you would still have to stat() everything
13:35:25 <Vorpal> on my laptop /home is 91 GB (with the squashfs loop mounts unmounted
13:36:14 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, I just saved 1.3 GB by removing vcredist and directx setup files from the steam games (those are only used on first run)
13:36:46 <Vorpal> why couldn't it provide one shared version of those common dependencies, rather than download a copy with each game.
13:37:22 <Vorpal> would save download time at the very least
13:37:24 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/PfWV -- distribution of .so across top-level directories.
13:37:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, /users? That is an unusual setup
13:38:13 <fizzie> Whereas /home is in the netwerk.
13:38:31 <Vorpal> also *.so is mostly symlinks when under /usr, probably to libfoo.so.1.2.3
13:38:47 <Vorpal> so it isn't all that easy to count actually
13:39:24 <Vorpal> and you usually have multiple symlinks to each real .so
13:40:00 <fizzie> I also tried to do a "du -hs /share/matlab/" to see how hilariously much of MATLAB there is, but it's been running for over 15 minutes now and doesn't seem to be finishing any time soon.
13:40:23 <Vorpal> probably due to network?
13:41:02 <fizzie> There's MATLAB versions R2009a, R2009b, R2010a, R2010b, R2011a and R2012a in there.
13:41:13 <Vorpal> why more than one version?
13:41:14 <fizzie> Combined they probably take quite a bit of space.
13:41:38 <fizzie> Just in case someone still needs the old versions, presumably.
13:42:15 <fizzie> Ongoing experiments and whatnot, maybe someone doesn't want to disk changes in results due to changes in whatever.
13:45:39 <fizzie> $ du -hs /share/matlab/
13:45:45 <fizzie> That's not *so* terribly much.
13:46:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, which one is largest and what size is that one?
13:46:52 <fizzie> I so don't want to re-run it for the individual directories.
13:47:09 <fizzie> I would guesstimate they're all the same order of magnitude, more or less.
13:47:26 <fizzie> We used to have nice pages listing which research groups wastes most space on the shared project disk(s), but I think those no longer auto-update.
13:48:45 <fizzie> Actually the link even 404s now. A shame.
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15:08:02 <elliott> Gregor: Oh, fix glogbot already.
15:10:35 <nortti> @ask Gregor have you done anything to fix your bot?
15:11:44 <elliott> nortti: You realise he's not here, right?
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16:49:08 <boily> AnotherTest: bonjour.
16:51:39 <boily> oui, je suis francophone.
16:52:12 <boily> (is it okay with the ops/mods/higher channel entities to have a quick conversation in French with a mysterious testing guy?)
16:52:55 <fizzie> Given that absolutely nothing else is happening, I don't see why not.
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16:53:17 <AnotherTest> (also note that I do speak English too :p)
16:53:38 <elliott> je vais écouter avec l'expédient utile de google traduction
16:53:55 <elliott> il pourrait ne pas fonctionner terriblement bien
16:54:17 <boily> je vais essayer de ne pas trop utiliser d'expressions locales.
16:54:37 <boily> profitons-en pour mieux nous connaître!
16:54:48 <boily> AnotherTest: d'où viens-tu?
16:55:02 <AnotherTest> Je ne suis pas de France moi-même, donc ne pensez pas que je parle le français super-bien
16:55:14 <elliott> google translate a déplacé les yeux de mon smiley pour quelque raison
16:55:52 <boily> je suis québécois, à montréal.
16:58:07 <boily> ça fait presqu'un an que j'y habite. j'aime bien la ville, même si les étés sont un peu trop chauds pour moi.
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16:58:41 <boily> à quoi ressemble le climat en belgique?
16:59:17 -!- nortti has joined.
16:59:39 <AnotherTest> Mais, en étant honnête, le climat est assez beau
17:00:05 <boily> hmm... c'est tentant de venir visiter une fois.
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17:01:20 <boily> c'est une compétition en brainfuck.
17:01:36 <boily> les participants essaient de mettre le «drapeau» de l'autre à 0.
17:02:06 <Vorpal> why are you talking French in this channel?
17:02:09 <elliott> Vorpal: pour la discussion en anglais, voir #esoteric-en!
17:02:26 -!- oonbotti has joined.
17:02:37 <boily> fizzie approved our conversation, so we were idling in French.
17:02:51 <boily> et comme AnotherTest a dit, «à cause...»
17:02:56 <elliott> je souhaite fizzie approuvé mes conversations: (
17:03:13 <boily> google translate has a hard time parsing emotes...
17:03:18 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway I played a (very small) bit of Planescape and while it does seem to have a great story and setting the gameplay annoys me too much
17:03:23 <boily> je dois retourner travailler.
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17:04:49 <fizzie> elliott: I approve of your message.
17:05:05 <Vorpal> elliott, also one thing I noticed is that while the lack of any sort of map markers telling me where I need to go increases the immerseiveness (is that a word?), such features do help keep up the pacing of the game.
17:05:29 <Vorpal> I don't think this game have that feature, at least not from what I have seen so far
17:05:34 <elliott> Vorpal: Si c'est un mot, il n'a pas «seive» en elle.
17:06:02 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm not going to bother trying to translate that.
17:07:01 <boily> if it is a word, he does not have tree sap in her???
17:07:54 -!- nortti has quit (Quit: Found terminal).
17:08:02 <itidus21> Vorpale: Lorsque vous regardez quelqu'un jouer que Star Wars MMO, j'ai commenc rflchir la faon trange, il semblait que les membres du parti dplac sur la carte en temps rel.
17:08:11 -!- oonbotti has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:08:14 <elliott> boily: J'ai traduit «If it's a word, it doesn't have "sieve" in it.» et que c'est ce qu'il m'a donné.
17:08:18 <fizzie> Vorpal: The battling sort of the gameplay is kinda-sorta "meh", yes. There's not terribly much of it, though.
17:08:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, right, are there any quest markers, any map even?
17:08:36 <itidus21> Sur demande je vais m'arrter dblayage environ avec Google Translate.
17:08:44 <elliott> boily: Re «immerseiveness (is that a word?)».
17:09:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, also why is the inventory display 2x2 squares :(
17:09:33 <Vorpal> (when interacting with chest-like stuff
17:09:55 <fizzie> Vorpal: I don't recall gameplay details at all. I doubt there's any quest markers. You can open a Torment map on another computer, though.
17:10:04 <boily> itidus21: on demand I will stop myself plow about with Google Translate.
17:10:14 -!- nortti has joined.
17:10:26 <Vorpal> also holding shift to sprint (instead of walking super slowly) is annoying. A toggle would be far superior (like caps lock is used in oblivion and skyrim)
17:11:48 <itidus21> yeah i will give up and use English !
17:13:00 <itidus21> Vorpal: When watching someone playing that Star Wars MMO, I started to think about how odd it looked having the party members moving about the map individually in real time
17:13:07 <fizzie> Vorpal: There are some mods that more or less make it possible to play with higher resolutions, incidentally. It may make things better; more visibility on screen, certainly.
17:13:30 <itidus21> as contrasted with the way one sprite represents the entire party in most final fantasy games
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17:14:13 <fizzie> I think I mostly followed the http://www.gog.com/en/news/mod_spotlight_planescape_torment_mods_guide/ way of playing. It starts with the resolution/UI bits, then adds some unofficial fixes.
17:14:31 <Vorpal> <itidus21> Vorpal: When watching someone playing that Star Wars MMO, I started to think about how odd it looked having the party members moving about the map individually in real time <-- what?
17:15:13 <itidus21> because i grew up with games where the party is represented by a single avatar
17:15:17 <Vorpal> I would say the one-sprite thing is stranger unless it is a sprite showing several people (like in avernum overworld)
17:16:23 <itidus21> well what I find interesting about it is how easy it was as a player of such games to accept that the single avatar represented an entire party
17:16:48 <Vorpal> argh I can't use the scroll wheel in this game, it is too old to support that
17:17:49 <itidus21> no matter how well intentioned it is, an npc party moving about freely just can't hide it's artificiality
17:19:59 <itidus21> it's an extaordinary leap of imagination that the game asks that a single avatar moving about a tiled map having random encounters represents a party of warriors stumbling upon monsters in the wilderness
17:20:53 <itidus21> ... i haven't really said much of anything with so many words.. i would make an excellent politician
17:22:41 <fizzie> Vorpal: I don't think I've seen a mod for that for Torment, sadly. (There was one for some other game.)
17:28:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, yeah the UI is in general terribly annoying
17:30:08 <fizzie> I don't recall it being terribly different from the usual sort of Infinity Engine stuff.
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17:33:16 <quintopia> is there any difference between @ask and @tell
17:33:27 <elliott> @tell quintopia Maybe there is.
17:33:38 <lambdabot> elliott said 12d 21h 36m 57s ago: no
17:33:38 <lambdabot> boily said 10d 21h 48m 49s ago: hi a little bit later.
17:33:38 <lambdabot> elliott said 4d 10h 33m 17s ago: To clarify, I don't run EgoBot and have no ability to instal lanything on it.
17:33:38 <lambdabot> elliott asked 4d 15m 38s ago: How does the proposed hill differ from the current one? I'm lazy.
17:33:40 <lambdabot> elliott asked 4d 15m 33s ago: Ranking-wise.
17:33:44 <lambdabot> elliott said 11s ago: Maybe there is.
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17:34:54 <itidus21> elliott rejoined 4d 15m 33s ago: Ranking-wise.
17:35:15 <quintopia> i rejoin every time there is a netsplit
17:35:22 <itidus21> im not sure if im using these words right
17:35:34 <fizzie> Vorpal: Okay, yes, now that I look at some screenshots, the container interface thing is a bit lame. Sadly (but understandably), I don't think the high-resolution mod manages to improve on that.
17:35:40 <itidus21> they're very rare words probably only ever found in the translation of war and peace
17:40:08 <itidus21> hmm... i think i can find relevant youtube
17:42:15 <itidus21> of the english translation i have: 1) it has a lot of pages 2) each page has a lot of words 3) you really do need a dictionary at your side
17:42:33 <itidus21> and because i'm the sort of loser who thinks it's fun to talk about something i failed at
17:43:12 <itidus21> i'm just not much of a book reader... but honestly few people are
17:45:04 <itidus21> it's a veritable mt everest of literature
17:46:02 <itidus21> also the fact that most ofl the characters have russian surnames adds to the fun
17:47:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway the game feels too slow paced so far IMO. Also a lot of the UI is clunky. While I'm sure the story and atmosphere is good I think I'm going to skip this game.
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18:16:44 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/chTZ
18:16:53 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 59.8
18:18:11 <elliott> This looks a lot different to the spelevator of yore.
18:20:12 <quintopia> that is only a 0.7 improvement to the one resulting in the report in the topic
18:20:40 <elliott> By "of yore", I mean the original.
18:21:10 <quintopia> i assumed by "of yore" you meant "i didn't see it when you first submitted 2.0.0 to the hill"
18:23:11 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, right
18:23:26 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, point is the interface is utterly clunky.
18:40:57 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, no, casual is not related to terrible interface. I would be casual if I said the game was too hard or too complex for example
18:42:39 <Phantom__Hoover> You just can't play a game without it babystepping you through the interface.
18:48:00 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, what was that supposed to mean?
18:48:40 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, I'm not talking about needing a tutorial for the interface. The interface is simply badly designed and annoying to use.
18:48:59 <Vorpal> and the combat is terrible.
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19:18:43 <zzo38> If a category has more than one final object, I think then that category would have more than one Finalize monad.
19:18:58 <zzo38> And if there is more than one initial object then it has more than one Initialize comonad.
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19:52:01 <oerjan> <oklopol> "If we have to make anything extinct, it is the human we should extinct." this is wrong, animals are worthless compared to humans
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19:53:32 <oerjan> i don't agree with the reason, but humans _are_ the only current species that might have a chance of allowing life in general to survive certain astronomical events, including the sun dying
19:54:43 <oerjan> and although intelligence might evolve again if we go extinct, there is no guarantee it will be less destructive to life
19:56:30 <oerjan> and i understand there may be only 800 million years left to do so before plant life croaks due to lowered CO2 levels
19:57:19 <oerjan> (of course plants might evolve a better system to survive for longer)
19:57:40 <zzo38> How to save the *universe* from going extinct? Impossible, I would think.
19:57:44 <oerjan> elliott: yeah that _is_ admittedly longer than major macroscopic life has already existed :P
19:58:41 <oerjan> zzo38: well maybe but if the hypothesis that black holes contain new universes is true, then maybe we could find a way to move into there
19:59:41 <oerjan> i guess surviving their initial big bang would be a bitch too
20:01:33 <elliott> zzo38: INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR MEANINGFUL ANSWER.
20:01:43 <oerjan> coppro: i think that's jumping to conclusions
20:03:04 * elliott sighs, walks over to the wall and flicks a counter up by one.
20:03:34 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/ZOGe
20:03:37 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 62.4
20:03:57 <elliott> what are you DOING to bf joust
20:04:08 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/report.txt
20:04:10 <coppro> elliott: what counter?
20:04:30 <elliott> coppro: It's next to the counters tracking the number of people in #esoteric who live in Hexham and Helsinki.
20:05:14 -!- quintopia has set topic: NOW WITH EDIT WARS | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | This is what the bfjoust hill will look like under the new scoring system: http://sprunge.us/JBcN.
20:06:06 <oerjan> so we can assume it is frequently used, then
20:06:15 <coppro> elliott: I assure you Sgeo had nothing to do with it.
20:06:18 <elliott> I think its value may be higher than the other two. Possibly even combined.
20:06:35 <elliott> coppro: Doesn't Sgeo have everything to do with everything, really?
20:06:52 <coppro> Depends. How many frogs has he stepped on?
20:07:05 <oerjan> elliott: was this flicking sparked by the previous #esoteric conversation?
20:07:40 <olsner> How many frogs must a man walk down?
20:07:42 <oerjan> elliott: does the counter have anything to do with people missing references? if so you might flick it again.
20:08:13 <Sgeo> I see a Homestuck reference, I don't see other references
20:08:15 <elliott> oerjan: No. What did I miss. :(
20:08:33 <oerjan> elliott: no i wondered what _i_ missed, since you flicked the counter
20:09:06 <elliott> oerjan: Well, if there was such a counter, then "<oerjan> coppro: i think that's jumping to conclusions" would have confirmed it was in need of flicking.
20:09:31 <oerjan> ah the incredibly lousy pun counter, right
20:09:56 <elliott> A missing-references counter, I mean. Oh, to hell with it.
20:10:10 <oerjan> well i assume the frogs are the homestuck reference Sgeo speaketh about
20:11:02 <coppro> I thought it was counting the number of homestuck readers in the channel.
20:11:07 <oerjan> why the hell did i suddenly get back pain :(
20:11:38 <oerjan> well no risk of flicking it for me, then
20:11:53 <coppro> because I made a subtle homestuck reference and elliott tried to investigate to see whether it was really a reference or just me being stupid.
20:11:58 <Sgeo> Oh, I just read where elliott flicked the counter
20:12:39 <elliott> I assume everyone is stupid by default.
20:12:54 <elliott> If anyone thinks I am testing their stupidity, rest assured I already know the conclusion.
20:12:56 <oerjan> elliott: i was about to say that that wasn't a disjoint set
20:13:09 <Sgeo> I didn't even see the prior HS reference. Because apparently I'm blind.
20:14:07 <olsner> so the counter was counting homestuck readers? and everyone missed the reference, causing the missing-a-reference counter to be created?
20:14:47 <Sgeo> coppro, although looking again, there were several
20:15:10 <elliott> olsner: There's no counters.
20:15:31 <olsner> oh noes, the counters are gone!
20:15:32 <coppro> Sgeo: I only count the quick exchange between elliott and I
20:15:37 <oerjan> the counter _itself_ was a reference
20:15:50 <coppro> elliott: did you check for spoons?
20:15:53 <coppro> (okay this is terrible now)
20:16:00 <monqy> was it ever not terrible
20:16:53 <Sgeo> Uh........ I don't remember spoons in connection with HS. Could be a reference to The Room or the fangame
20:17:16 <Sgeo> Or me being thick
20:17:23 <Sgeo> Because maybe I forgot something in HS
20:22:01 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/NFHC
20:22:04 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 63.2
20:23:29 -!- quintopia has set topic: NOW WITH EDIT WARS | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | This is what the bfjoust hill will look like under the new scoring system: http://sprunge.us/ONOi.
20:23:38 <quintopia> elliott: halp. i can't stop. can't get real work done.
20:24:03 <olsner> quintopia: isn't bfjoust real work?
20:24:08 <coppro> elliott: did he really just...
20:24:54 <coppro> it was not a homestuck reference
20:25:00 <coppro> read the thing elliott said
20:25:39 <Sgeo> "there's no counters"?
20:25:52 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving").
20:26:53 <Sgeo> Like a tabletop counter?
20:29:33 <coppro> oerjan: thank you for agreeing with me
20:29:55 <olsner> are we done talking abou counters yet?
20:29:57 <Sgeo> What am I missing here?
20:30:11 <oerjan> seems the new - broke off the swatter
20:30:42 <oerjan> Sgeo: something rectangular, filled with numbers
20:31:11 <Sgeo> And what does that have to do with spoons?
20:32:52 <oerjan> don't worry, knowing about memetic references isn't _really_ obligatory
20:32:57 <coppro> olsner: we're not talking about counters any more
20:33:18 <coppro> we're talking about Sgeo's inability to get references
20:33:21 <oerjan> Sgeo, i don't think we're in HS anymore
20:35:32 <coppro> I think that if we keep this up, someone's going to get unplugged
20:35:59 <Sgeo> elliott already left because of this
20:36:26 <coppro> monqy: the references have you
20:37:12 <oerjan> Sgeo: now i smell a lot of references going around that _i_ don't get
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20:41:13 <coppro> all of my references have been to the same thing as the spoon
20:41:24 <coppro> (which, as previously established, does not exist)
20:42:13 <Sgeo> So Homestuck then. And I can't believe I derped as to the meaning of spoons
20:43:27 <coppro> I meant every reference since then
20:45:51 <Sgeo> Matrix, because of "There's no" in what elliott said
20:48:29 <Sgeo> No one literally said "There is no spoon" in the above convo, so
20:48:49 <Sgeo> Matrix flitted through my head a few times but I rejected it because of that
20:49:33 <Sgeo> I should actually watch at one point
20:49:39 <Sgeo> I haven't seen the beginning of it
20:49:44 <Sgeo> I have seen the sequels
20:50:01 <kmc> imo the first part of the matrix is the coolest
20:50:05 <coppro> the best references are subtle
20:50:08 <Vorpal> meh, references are hyped
20:50:13 <coppro> "there is no spoon" is obvious
20:50:33 <Vorpal> coppro, I watched the first Matrix once many years ago. I don't remember that bit from it
20:50:39 <Vorpal> I never watched any of the other ones
20:50:52 <coppro> Vorpal: "there is no spoon" is probably its most famous line
20:50:57 <coppro> *it's from the oracle scene
20:51:10 <Vorpal> coppro, nah, I'd say the red/blue pill thing is the most famous
20:51:43 <quintopia> it wasn't obvious to me. i also considered and rejected a matrix reference.
20:51:57 <Vorpal> coppro, and I don't remember what the oracle scene was.
20:53:07 <Vorpal> I have a vague memory of someone bending a spoon using his mind, was that the scene in question?
20:53:34 <Vorpal> I don't remember what else that scene was about though
20:54:02 <kmc> they're in the waiting room to see the oracle
20:54:11 <Vorpal> anyway, it wasn't such a good movie as people seem to think IMO. Sure, it wasn't a bad movie, but IMO it was only a bit above average.
20:54:30 <Vorpal> kmc, who was the oracle, I don't remember that :P
20:54:40 <kmc> maybe you could like
20:54:44 <kmc> read a plot summary or something
20:54:55 <Vorpal> quintopia, drawing a blank on that
20:55:04 <kmc> i think in the first movie she only appears in that scene
20:55:17 <Vorpal> right, and I haven't watched any of the other movies
20:55:30 <kmc> neo and morpheus go there to ask her if neo is The One, basically
20:55:37 <kmc> and she gives a cryptic answer which is basically "no"
20:55:43 <kmc> and she makes cookies for them
20:56:03 <kmc> Vorpal: maybe you can elaborate on why you think it's not a good movie
20:56:05 <kmc> i'm curious
20:57:13 <Vorpal> kmc, first: as I said it was a long time ago I watched it. I remember not liking it all that much, but I don't completely remember the specific reasons. I think it was a general subjective "I don't really like this" though.
20:57:13 <shachaf> I don't think it's a good movie.
20:57:24 <Vorpal> kmc, and iirc the combat was a bit over the top
20:58:03 <kmc> that doesn't make it a bad movie
20:58:15 <kmc> the combat was fun to watch, and was decently original when it came out
20:58:24 <kmc> of course there have been 9000 imitations since then
20:58:27 <Vorpal> kmc, indeed, I said it was above average above. I'm just saying it isn't as good as many people make it out to me
20:58:40 <Vorpal> (correction above for the last word on the line before it)
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20:59:19 <Vorpal> kmc, it is not a 10/10 it is more like a 6.5/10
21:00:02 <kmc> you don't have many reasons and that's ok
21:00:12 <kmc> i certainly agree it's not a 10/10
21:00:17 <Vorpal> kmc, not strange, it was like 10 years ago I watched it
21:00:17 <kmc> hard for any film to be
21:00:23 <Vorpal> I don't remember all that much
21:00:47 <Vorpal> kmc, anyway, 10 is unobtainable in my scale. It is "perfect"
21:01:05 <Vorpal> it is like warp 10 in star trek. Infinite something or whatever.
21:01:16 <Vorpal> (not I trekkie, don't remember the exact details of that)
21:01:20 <Sgeo> Hey, they breached it in that one episode
21:01:23 <kmc> not I trekkie
21:01:26 * Sgeo ducks for cover
21:02:38 <Vorpal> I thought they did that more than once
21:03:33 <Sgeo> Vorpal, I was referring to what was considered one of the worst episodes. Dropped from canon.
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21:05:16 <Vorpal> Sgeo, oh the voyager one?
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21:45:28 <oerjan> nortti: i responded to you on the wiki
21:45:56 <zzo38> Do you know if there is MCK for .MOD?
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21:55:07 <elliott> oerjan: (Whoops, I think this reveals a bug for the a case in the !/<code> removal.) --Ørjan (talk) 21:21, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
21:55:09 <elliott> i revealed you another buge
21:56:58 * oerjan whistles in complete innocence
21:58:18 <oerjan> preview is for wussies
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22:40:25 <zzo38> How do I find information about the Impulse Tracker format?
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23:26:29 <fizzie> zzo38: http://16-bits.org/it/ seems to be a copy of the document I've used.
23:28:08 <fizzie> (It's the ITTECH.TXT file in the Impulse Tracker zip, also.)
23:29:08 <fizzie> (So you can find copies of it by searching with that name.)
23:30:16 <fizzie> The user's manual, IT.TXT in the zip, also has some relevant information, like documentation of the filters.
23:32:06 <zzo38> Actually I am trying to make a program which compiles music into Impulse Tracker format
23:32:22 <zzo38> So that it can be played using ModPlug and MegaZeux and so on
23:33:25 <fizzie> I don't have any experience with writing IT files, just reading them, but it's of course somewhat related.
23:33:38 <fizzie> (I've also taken a look at the load_it.c file of the MikMod library sources. Just code there, though.)
23:35:56 <zzo38> Basically I want something like MCK that can compile into .IT or whatever
23:36:21 <zzo38> (MCK is a program to compile .NSF music file)
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23:50:20 <quintopia> zzo38: can you make a program that lets me algorithmically generate .it files?
23:50:44 <quintopia> a simple music language with powerful features
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00:12:05 <zzo38> There seem some effects of MCK which are not possible in Impulse Tracker or any other tracker formats, such as desynchronized loops, or activating multiple effects for one note
00:13:54 <zzo38> Although for desynchronized loops I could have the program expand the loops until they are synchronized when compiling it
00:21:12 <zzo38> MegaZeux cannot play .NSF files so to create music for MegaZeux game require other program; it can play .MOD, .S3M, .IT, .XM, .OGG, .WAV formats, and maybe a few others too.
00:22:11 <zzo38> Do you know if there is any MML compilers for these formats?
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00:51:01 <Gregor> lambdabot: Oh shit you're not here.
00:51:17 <oerjan> Gregor: Oh shit you're here.
00:51:44 <Gregor> Only momentarily. I'm still in China, I just wanted to check how much SHIT WENT DOWN while I was gone.
00:51:47 <Gregor> As it turns out: a lot.
00:52:06 <oerjan> the logs weren't working at one point; i haven't checked them since.
00:52:55 -!- PatashuXantheres has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:52:58 <oerjan> well looks like you just got them working
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00:53:37 <Gregor> Did glogbackup figure it out? >_>
00:53:53 <Gregor> I may have to implement proper log merging. I'll solicit logs if I need them.
00:54:15 <oerjan> Gregor: no, glogbot was still here, just not logging
00:54:17 <elliott> Gregor: glogbackup was here, I think.
00:54:29 <elliott> Gregor: tunes.org logged everything.
00:55:10 <elliott> Gregor: May I suggest having glogbackup always present?
00:55:47 <Gregor> 'snot a terrible idea *shrugs*
00:56:49 <oerjan> anyway we won't see Gregor again, now that he's blamed China.
00:57:06 <Gregor> Even more dangerously, I'm blaming China from WITHIN CHINA.
00:57:18 <elliott> Gregor: I suspect it might have been a software failure, anyway.
00:57:24 <elliott> Some line caused it to break or something.
00:57:38 <Gregor> No, it was a much more retarded software failure.
00:59:08 * oerjan learns that Thog is also a muppet
00:59:56 <pikhq_> Gregor: Just so long as you don't say it in Mandarin.
01:00:44 <oerjan> if he had said it in Mandarin, he'd been automatically disconnected already. or wait, that is if _we_ said it in Mandarin.
01:00:48 <quintopia> and dont ask them about their grass mud horses
01:00:59 <quintopia> when are you coming home we miss you
01:01:13 <Gregor> I'll be back on the 19th.
01:01:19 <pikhq_> In fact, I'll make it better for you.
01:02:17 <oerjan> also, http://brog.engrish.com/
01:02:29 <pikhq_> (~= "The great People's Republic of China is the best!")
01:02:54 <oerjan> wait, did i just ruin it again
01:03:03 -!- lambdabot has joined.
01:03:41 <oerjan> second item on that site says yes
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01:04:56 <quintopia> @tell Gregor you dont have any messages
01:05:29 <elliott> Gregor: Did you know you can say
01:07:24 <shachaf> pikhq_: Do you know how good a game _Zork: Grand Inquisitor_ is?
01:07:44 <shachaf> pikhq_: You should find out!
01:08:54 <Patashu> I stumbled upon this page: http://www.mu6.com/catalan_numbers_growth.html Which seems to show a relationship between the numbers of pascal's triangle and the catalan numbers. However, with pascal's triangle going on forever and ever, I was wondering if you could find such a relationship between pascal's triangle and any series of numbers...
01:09:18 <elliott> Patashu: I have not even scrolled down that page and I can tell you it's the work of a crank.
01:09:43 <Patashu> http://www.mu6.com/images_catalan_numbers/catalan_pascal-208012.jpg picture in question
01:22:00 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Sat Jun 16 02:23:22
01:22:39 <Patashu> I'd like that for my own bot
01:22:57 <elliott> * Received a CTCP TIME from lambdabot
01:23:17 <lambdabot> Local time for Patashu is Sat Jun 16 11:23:09 2012
01:27:47 <oerjan> hm wp has formulas for catalan numbers based on binomials, so obviously there is _some_ connection
01:28:34 <oerjan> binom(2n,n) - binom(2n, n+1) for example
01:30:04 <elliott> i was waiting for oerjan to get on the case :P
01:31:45 <oerjan> well the picture _does_ seem to spread them a bit randomly around
01:42:25 <myndzi> oh what am i doing, i bet here's a great place to ask about parsers huh? :P
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01:44:21 <myndzi> i'm trying to figure out what kinds of parser methods are available, which are best and what constraints they operate under
01:44:26 <myndzi> so i can read about one that suits me and implement it
01:45:25 <oerjan> LALR(1), packrat, monadic parsing combinators...
01:45:44 <elliott> ..., recursive descent, ...
01:47:32 <myndzi> haha yeah, i can get more specific
01:47:59 <myndzi> i just got sidetracked by wikipedia
01:48:43 <myndzi> so right, i have a sequence of either html tags or text values; i want to be able to create rules to match sections of the input sequence to identify specific text values with specific meanings and store that data
01:48:51 <myndzi> i don't know enough to know what's best suited to the job
01:48:55 <myndzi> google hasn't been helping much
01:52:01 <myndzi> what i'm trying to figure out is: which kind of parsing is most desirable for speed? what are the restrictions that i have to work in?
02:03:09 <myndzi> (looking at lalr now..)
02:03:29 <myndzi> seems about right i think
02:13:58 <shachaf> elliott: I heard kmc doesn't even own a television.
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02:43:30 <shachaf> kmc: Is it just me or is gcc's inline assembly syntax really badly documented?
02:45:03 <ion> shachaf: Yes.
02:50:14 <shachaf> I wonder how I would've found that out.
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02:55:58 <kmc> huh that's not even in http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc/Machine-Constraints.html#Machine-Constraints
02:56:21 <kmc> what's worse is that apparently the constraints for %r8 through %r16 simply don't exist
02:58:08 <kmc> myndzi: ask edwardk about packrat parsing
02:58:11 <kmc> if you can handle it
02:58:34 <kmc> er that's "%r8 through %r15"
02:59:48 <kmc> probably these don't exist because the gcc machine descriptions have not needed them, seeing as they aren't special to particular x86 instructions
03:00:42 <kmc> (whereas, for example, %rax and %rdx are special, because they implicitly hold the result of IMUL or RDTSC)
03:01:18 <kmc> but this is a poor excuse for a lack of uniformity
03:01:45 <kmc> this annoyed me when writing a generic syscall function for amd64 Linux
03:02:05 <kmc> ideally it would just be asm("syscall" : pile of constraints)
03:03:28 <kmc> and then, if the function is inlined, the compiler can arrange for the arguments to be already present in %r10 and %r8 and such, rather than moving them there
03:03:46 <kmc> did you all see http://blog.xen.org/index.php/2012/06/13/the-intel-sysret-privilege-escalation/
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03:06:24 <kmc> yeah, good times
03:06:40 <shachaf> kmc: I was writing asm("syscall" : ...) for 32-bit x86, in fact.
03:06:59 <kmc> not asm("int $0x80")?
03:07:18 <shachaf> (I *was* writing asm("syscall"), in fact, but then I was reminded not to do that.)
03:08:14 <shachaf> Is syscall() the only assembly function you really need to write libc-less C in Linux?
03:08:42 <shachaf> I guess there are a some other parts of libc that you couldn't implement.
03:08:59 <shachaf> By the way, I found out that gdb allocates memory by calling malloc().
03:09:17 <shachaf> So if you p foo("abc") it'll malloc space for that string.
03:09:57 <kmc> it looks up the symbol "malloc" in the target process's address space and calls it??
03:10:07 <kmc> what if you don't have malloc, or just don't have symbols?
03:10:19 <shachaf> The symbol comes from libc, I guess.
03:10:32 <shachaf> If you don't have malloc then it can't do p foo("abc")
03:11:04 <shachaf> I was trying to figure out how gdb does syscalls by unmapping various pages and seeing if it could still manage it.
03:11:10 <shachaf> But I guess gdb doesn't directly do syscalls at all.
03:11:18 <kmc> shachaf: in my most recent libc-less project, I wrote syscall1 through syscall5, rdtsc, and mfence
03:11:41 <shachaf> I just wrote a varargs syscall.
03:11:52 <shachaf> Well, this was 32-bit, which I guess is a bit simpler.
03:12:06 <kmc> varargs :(
03:12:07 <shachaf> You can always load junk from the stack into the argument registers.
03:12:17 <kmc> i wanted the nice inlining behavior
03:12:17 <shachaf> kmc: Hey, I was implementing the spec here!
03:12:22 <kmc> because i was ricing the code
03:12:33 <elliott> kmc: You know what you'd do if you wanted syscall performance?
03:13:04 <shachaf> You know what you'd do if you wanted syscall performance?
03:13:27 <kmc> also i wrote asm for a specific use case of mmap, so i could load immediates into %r10, %r8, %r9 directly
03:13:27 <shachaf> I guess they have syscalls. But you don't *need* to use them.
03:13:56 <kmc> i,i iopl(2)
03:14:01 <shachaf> Did it turn out to be mmap2 instead of mmap, or is that just for i386?
03:14:08 <elliott> People used syscalls on MS-DOS.
03:14:18 <shachaf> elliott: But they didn't *need* to!
03:14:28 <kmc> shachaf: I used __NR_mmap
03:14:39 <kmc> that's a hack to allow >32-bit offsets on 32-bit linux, right?
03:14:50 <elliott> kmc: Can you write @ for me?
03:14:51 <shachaf> No, it's a hack because mmap has 6 arguments.
03:15:00 <shachaf> The old ABI only allowed 4 or 5 arguments or something.
03:15:12 <kmc> a lot of "numbered syscalls" reset to 1 on amd64 because the newer versions predate the amd64 ABI
03:15:25 <kmc> "The mmap2() system call provides the same interface as mmap(2), except that the final argument specifies the offset into the file in 4096-byte units (instead of bytes, as is done by mmap(2))."
03:15:45 <shachaf> Maybe it does both, I don't know.
03:16:00 <kmc> so how did the old ABI work with 5 arguments?
03:16:08 <shachaf> By passing a pointer to some memory.
03:17:28 <kmc> "to get to the other side"
03:18:55 <kmc> shachaf: Did you know there's a patron saint of drug smugglers? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jes%C3%BAs_Malverde
03:19:18 <kmc> (fake saint, kind of like the "Nobel Prize" in Economics)
03:19:46 <elliott> He is not recognized as a saint by the Roman Catholic Church.
03:20:10 <lambdabot> Gregor: You have 5 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
03:20:27 <shachaf> @ask Gregor What are all those messages?
03:20:37 <lambdabot> shachaf asked 10s ago: What are all those messages?
03:20:46 <Gregor> Mostly people saying "AGG UR BOT BORKED"
03:20:49 <shachaf> kmc: Are you ad rug smuggler?
03:20:59 <Gregor> bash: fork: Cannot allocate memory
03:21:15 <kmc> you got punked
03:21:41 <kmc> shachaf: not by trade
03:21:51 <kmc> I have transported illegal drugs through zones in which they are illegal
03:21:54 <kmc> which is everywhere
03:22:18 <pikhq> shachaf: syscall isn't the only function you'll need to write in C...
03:22:35 <pikhq> shachaf: It's just the only function that's really something you care about.
03:22:36 <shachaf> pikhq: It is to write the thing I was writing!
03:22:51 <shachaf> Yes, there are a bunch of others. kmc mentioned some of them and there are others.
03:22:52 <pikhq> I assume you don't care about setjmp, longjmp, et al.
03:23:11 <kmc> i also cheated by using a few GCC builtin functions
03:23:24 <kmc> memset, memcpy, strlen, fmodf, ia32_shufps
03:23:24 <shachaf> I wish setjmp had an equivalent of makecontext().
03:23:52 <shachaf> Is this considered bad C style? { int (*hd2i)(char) = hexdigit2int; ...hd2i()...hd2i()...; }
03:24:00 <pikhq> Ah, yes, another good example of something you won't care much about.
03:24:16 <shachaf> pikhq: Userspace threading is the future!
03:24:27 <kmc> these all (in my use case) expand to inline assembly
03:24:29 <shachaf> kmc: Did your network server do userspace threading?
03:24:39 <pikhq> shachaf: I think more accurately that's considered "C style you wouldn't even realise exists".
03:24:44 <kmc> no, it uses clone(2)
03:25:02 <shachaf> And you call yourself a ricer!
03:25:04 <pikhq> shachaf: Anyways. The thing taht sucks about *context most is they're relatively high overhead.
03:25:11 <kmc> shachaf: i wanted to use multiple cores
03:25:31 <shachaf> pikhq: I know! I spent a while optimizing a low-overhead version of them.
03:25:43 <shachaf> What I ended up with was very close to *jmp.
03:25:45 <elliott> <kmc> memset, memcpy, strlen, fmodf, ia32_shufps
03:25:50 <elliott> you don't need asm for most of those
03:25:58 <pikhq> I've just compared bsnes with libco in asm and libco using *context.
03:26:26 <pikhq> (bsnes cooperatively multitasks each CPU in its emulated systems)
03:26:36 <shachaf> pikhq: You don't actually need assembly, I think -- you can get away with *jmp if you set up your stacks carefully.
03:27:12 <pikhq> shachaf: You need asm to change the stack pointer to a newly allocated stack, though.
03:27:37 <pikhq> (I assume you're not messing with the jmpbuf, which you cannot do without relying on implementation details)
03:27:49 <kmc> 420 rely on implementation details everyday
03:28:06 <shachaf> pikhq: Yes, you have to rely on implementation details.
03:28:11 <pikhq> Well, I guess the asm would do the same.
03:28:15 <shachaf> It's not as if you're not -- right.
03:28:31 <pikhq> Though the asm would only depend on the defined system ABI, rather than whatever the hell the libc is doing.
03:28:32 <shachaf> On the other hand using the assembly yourself is probably nicer.
03:28:38 <pikhq> Which *might* change in different versions of the libc.
03:28:40 <kmc> shachaf: isn't it great how growing pot in your own backyard and then smoking it yourself in your own house counts as interstate commerce?
03:29:22 <pikhq> That is how a drug ban is constitutional.
03:29:25 <kmc> yep, Gonzales v. Raich
03:29:37 <pikhq> Because it's interstate commerce, and therefore Congress has the power to regulate it.
03:29:41 <pikhq> shachaf: Likewise.
03:29:44 <kmc> back in 1920 you needed a constitutional amendment to ban a drug
03:30:08 <kmc> but in the days since then, the supreme court has decided that "interstate commerce" means "absolutely fucking anything"
03:30:24 <kmc> so the federal government can pass laws pertaining to anything it likes
03:30:31 <kmc> which, honestly, might be a more reasonable system in this day and age
03:30:32 <shachaf> "The government also contended that consuming one's locally grown marijuana for medical purposes affects the interstate market of marijuana, and hence that the federal government may regulate—and prohibit—such consumption."
03:30:50 <elliott> [[The environmentalist group Community Rights Council also filed a brief for the government, fearing limitation of federal power would undermine their agenda.[4]]]
03:31:08 <kmc> but it's blatantly not what's in the constitution
03:31:17 <pikhq> Yes, they really think that friggin' *butterfly effects* on the interstate market count.
03:31:26 <shachaf> elliott: That's a long [[Wikipedia:Article title]!
03:31:29 <kmc> well they don't really think that
03:31:40 <kmc> they just want this law to be valid and so they invent a justification out of whole cloth
03:32:05 <pikhq> Okay, yes, they don't *think* it, they just claim that it does.
03:32:24 <shachaf> Is it the growing or consuming part or both?
03:36:29 <kmc> Roe v. Wade is another example of this
03:36:43 <kmc> i'm totally in favor of abortion rights, but the argument used by SCOTUS to get there is pretty fucking dodgy
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03:37:49 <pikhq> Also look at some of the arguments used in favor of DOMA (don't think any have hit SCOTUS though)
03:38:58 <pikhq> Honestly, the precedents in place start making the UK look sane.
03:39:11 <pikhq> And the set of UK laws is no longer knowable!
03:39:12 <elliott> kmc: Whta was the dodgingness there? I'm not too familiar.
03:39:58 <kmc> elliott: they invented a constitutional "right to privacy" based on the due process clause of the 14th Amendment and a general gut feeling about the rest of the Constitution
03:40:25 <pikhq> elliott: They ruled that abortion bans are unconstitutional because it violates the right to privacy implied by the 9th amendment and due process stated by the 14th.
03:40:39 <kmc> i think Lawrence v. Texas is a similar argument
03:40:48 <elliott> well frankly the US constitution is pretty draconian :P
03:40:57 <kmc> attributing that to due process seems pretty circular
03:40:59 <elliott> so it's not surprising it's bent so much
03:41:12 <kmc> "you have this civil right because the constitution says we have to respect the civil rights you have"
03:41:29 <kmc> elliott: really? what do you think is draconian, about the constitution as written?
03:41:32 <pikhq> elliott: I should note that the 9th amendment only states that the listing of rights is not comprehensive.
03:41:38 <kmc> i think it just omits a lot of stuff that's important today
03:41:46 <elliott> kmc: draconian in terms of what the government is allowed to do/provide/etc.
03:42:01 <elliott> i guess that's an idiosyncratic use of "draconian"
03:42:11 <elliott> anyway obviously it's bent for good and bad causes and probably more the latter
03:42:18 <elliott> nex ttime take a tip from us
03:42:22 <elliott> don't write the bloody thing down
03:42:31 <kmc> ah SCOTUS "declined to adopt the district court's Ninth Amendment rationale"
03:42:39 <kmc> == elliott
03:43:10 <kmc> it's a weird idiom
03:43:29 <elliott> Historically, "No Act of Parliament can be unconstitutional, for the law of the land knows not the word or the idea."[3]
03:43:32 <kmc> i think the right wing in the USA kind of has a point about "judicial activism"
03:43:39 <kmc> but i think it's the lesser of two evils, in many if not most cases
03:43:54 <elliott> is judicial activism worse than the normal process of amending laws :P
03:44:08 <elliott> it's all kind of fucked up
03:44:43 <elliott> you guys should have just turned into 50 separate countries
03:45:04 <kmc> they tried that first
03:45:17 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Articles_of_Confederation
03:45:21 <pikhq> kmc: They also complain about legit uses of the courts as "judicial activism".
03:45:22 <kmc> it didn't work
03:45:47 <elliott> kmc: it's not my fault you guys are incompetent
03:45:49 <kmc> aiui becuase nobody could force the states to pony up some coin
03:45:53 <kmc> we're trying
03:46:01 <pikhq> To the point where I've heard that merely *knocking down laws* is "judicial activism".
03:46:02 <kmc> we could just kick the South out of the country
03:46:08 <kmc> that would solve many if not most problems
03:46:24 <elliott> anyway this is what happens when you stray from the queen and god
03:46:36 <elliott> hope you take this lesson on board in your next reincarnation
03:46:45 <pikhq> I'm of the opinion that the US would function much better as a few different countries.
03:46:50 <kmc> pikhq: so these people reject Marbury v. Madison?
03:46:52 <pikhq> Perhaps one for each major reason.
03:47:01 <elliott> kmc: do you expect they even know what that is
03:47:12 <pikhq> kmc: They would if they knew it!
03:47:13 <elliott> anyway circlejerking about some imagined strawman right-winger is tedious
03:47:20 <elliott> there's too many real ones to bother doing that
03:47:21 <kmc> == elliott
03:47:33 <kmc> circlejerking is tedious
03:48:25 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1a/Royal_Coat_of_Arms_of_the_United_Kingdom_%28HM_Government%29.svg/743px-Royal_Coat_of_Arms_of_the_United_Kingdom_%28HM_Government%29.svg.png
03:48:31 <elliott> do you guys have anything this trippy
03:48:46 <elliott> (i could feel it about to happen)
03:48:59 <kmc> circlejerking is tedious, have sex or go home
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03:49:03 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_Great_Seal_Reverse.svg Well, there's the reverse of the Great Seal, I guess.
03:49:26 <elliott> take a look at the lions in the middle
03:49:43 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Great_Seal_of_United_States.jpg
03:50:03 <elliott> pikhq: that thing has always struck me as inviting conspiracy theories
03:50:17 <pikhq> elliott: It does just that.
03:50:18 <kmc> original trolls
03:50:43 <pikhq> Especially the "Novus Ordo Seclorum", which can be interpreted by people not good at Latin as "New world order".
03:57:02 <shachaf> "For me Gentoo is perfect. For you, perhaps not. What is really strage about Gentoo is this: people who like it or dislike it keep constantly refering to Gentoo-when in reality we are refering to Linux. With othert distro's when you have problems they are problems with Redhat or with SuSE or with Lindows. But if you have problems with Gentoo you have problems with Linux. That's because with Gentoo you have returned to the source."
03:59:12 <pikhq> shachaf: Such a bad thing.
03:59:20 <pikhq> They'd almost have a point if it were Slackware.
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04:44:15 <zzo38> Is there any audio format that has a header specifying sample rate and stereo but does not include file idenfication or length (so that length is based on the length of the file instead)?
04:45:07 <pikhq> No, but honestly there should be.
04:45:50 <zzo38> I could invent one and suggest supporting in SoX; it should be not too complicated to invent
04:46:35 <shachaf> zzo38: Aren't there streaming audio formats that are like that?
04:48:19 <zzo38> shachaf: Maybe; I don't know. I also don't know if SoX supports them.
04:53:45 <zzo38> Address 0x00: bit0 and bit1 = number of channels (1, 2, 4, or 6); bit2 and bit3 = bits (4, 8, 16, or 32); bit4 = signed/unsigned; bit5 = endian; bit6 and bit7 = unused (set to zero).
04:53:53 <zzo38> Address 0x01: track number.
04:54:04 <zzo38> Address 0x02 and 0x03: video syncrhonization number or album number.
04:54:14 <zzo38> Address 0x04 to 0x07: sample rate in decihertz.
04:54:27 <zzo38> The rest of the data: raw uncompressed audio data.
04:55:49 <kmc> don't pack bits like that
04:56:18 <kmc> cause it's annoying to encode and decode
04:56:35 <kmc> ideally the header would be a sequence of numbers all the same size
04:56:51 <zzo38> It isn't annoying to encode and decode
04:56:58 <kmc> it's more annoying than not doing it
04:57:09 <kmc> also you might want a magic number at the beginning
04:57:16 <kmc> also it's kind of bad to design a format without any extension mechanism
04:57:20 <kmc> no matter how trivial it seems now
04:57:32 <zzo38> My whole point is not to have a magic number at the beginning or any length specifier
04:57:35 <kmc> for example it's not ridiculous to have more than 7 channels
04:57:44 <kmc> magic number has nothing to do with a length specifier
04:57:48 <kmc> why do you want no magic number
04:57:53 <kmc> it just helps identify the file type
04:58:19 <kmc> wait, you aren't even encoding the number of channels
04:58:22 <zzo38> And there *is* an extension mechanism; there are two unused bits.
04:58:29 <kmc> that's... not what i mean, at all
04:58:52 <kmc> is there really no standard container format which is suitable to express this information
04:59:03 <shachaf> mv file file.zzo # extension mechanism
04:59:20 <zzo38> As far as I know all of them require the length in the header too, which is one thing I am trying to avoid
04:59:33 <kmc> what do people use for streaming audio then?
04:59:35 <zzo38> Since the data may be piped from another program which does not yet know the length
04:59:38 <kmc> i know there are mp3 streams of indefinite length
04:59:50 <kmc> and mpeg transport streams generally
04:59:50 <pikhq> kmc: He's wanting raw audio, though...
04:59:58 <kmc> well anyway
05:00:03 <kmc> even if you roll your own format
05:00:10 <kmc> don't do something silly like this 1,2,4,6 enumeration
05:00:20 <shachaf> Apparently .wav doesn't have a file length.
05:00:31 <kmc> the header should be an array of 16-bit little endian numbers
05:00:33 <kmc> for simplicity
05:00:37 <shachaf> It has chunks which have lengths, but you can have as many of them as you want.
05:00:41 <zzo38> shachaf: The data itself doesn't but it is in a RIFF container which does include length
05:00:44 <kmc> it should start with a magic number, a version number, and the length of the header itself
05:01:39 <kmc> this way new headers can have more fields, and yet old programs will just ignore those fields
05:01:57 <pikhq> shachaf: A RIFF file is a single RIFF chunk that can contain chunks.
05:02:10 <kmc> this is something almost every format should do, imo
05:02:10 <zzo38> I don't want to include such redundant things as magic number and the length of the header itself. I might change it but I don't want to add version number either; I want to keep the four byte sample rate and the rest of the header also being exactly four bytes.
05:02:12 <kmc> but like i'm no expert
05:02:26 <kmc> zzo38: from where do you get all these arbitrary constraints?
05:02:44 <pikhq> zzo38: The magic number thing is fairly standard UNIX convention.
05:02:46 <kmc> i mean if you're designing "format to satisfy zzo38's particular aesthetic requirements" then go ahead
05:02:51 <zzo38> kmc: It is going to become too complicated otherwise
05:03:01 <kmc> if you're designing "a good format, which won't pointlessly waste programmer time in the future" then please do not go ahead
05:03:31 <kmc> it's "too complicated" to have channel number be its own field instead of some wacky bit-packed enumeration?
05:03:42 <kmc> i don't understand
05:03:44 <elliott> kmc: why are you arguing with zzo38
05:03:49 <kmc> this seems like absolutely terrible engineering to me
05:03:50 <pikhq> zzo38: Magic number makes things simpler.
05:03:53 <elliott> what benefit are you trying to extract from this energy exertion
05:04:00 <zzo38> I do not want extra metadata. (The reason I included the track number is just because there is room left over; I want eight bytes header so that it will be aligned; instead of using seven bytes or something like that)
05:04:02 <shachaf> elliott: kmc is addicted to IRC arguments.
05:04:04 <kmc> not bit-packing also makes things simpler
05:04:04 <elliott> alternatively what harm are you trying to prevent
05:04:17 <kmc> zzo38: 16 or 32 byte header would also be aligned
05:04:22 <kmc> shachaf: yeah :(
05:04:28 <kmc> i don't know
05:04:29 <zzo38> kmc: Yes it would be, but I don't want it too long
05:04:30 <elliott> i will argue with you if it makes my questions get answered
05:04:35 <kmc> 16 bytes is "too long"?
05:04:36 <elliott> i'm happy to perform this service
05:04:40 <kmc> what fucking planet are you from
05:04:49 <kmc> are you planning to store your audio files on punched cards?
05:05:02 <pikhq> zzo38: It seems what you want is an analog of PNM for audio.
05:05:02 <kmc> somehow real formats get designed with these flaws
05:05:04 <shachaf> kmc: You should charge people for arguing with them.
05:05:06 <kmc> somebody must be responsible
05:05:14 <kmc> somebody must have had the opportunity to stop it
05:05:17 <elliott> <elliott> kmc: why are you arguing with zzo38 <elliott> what benefit are you trying to extract from this energy exertion <elliott> alternatively what harm are you trying to prevent
05:05:22 <shachaf> pikhq: PNM has a magic header!
05:05:22 <pikhq> zzo38: Magic number is reasonable for this.
05:05:27 <pikhq> shachaf: Yes, I know.
05:05:33 <kmc> it's unlikely zzo38's format will catch on, but I think i have some minimal responsibility to try to stop this madness
05:05:39 <zzo38> No of course I will not store them on punched cards; the header is small compared to the audio itself which would be already too large to store on punched cards
05:05:52 <elliott> kmc: don't you think the world would be less interesting without zzo38's designs in them
05:05:53 <kmc> zzo38: you really have no sense of irony do you
05:05:58 <kmc> elliott: it's true
05:06:08 <kmc> i mean i joined this channel largely to argue with crackpots
05:06:13 <zzo38> kmc: Well, you should have free of speech to say what you like and argue what you like, whether some people agree/disagree
05:06:38 <elliott> unfortunately i think there is only one active crackpot in the channel
05:06:41 <shachaf> Free as in free of speech.
05:06:54 <kmc> shacrackpot
05:07:15 <elliott> kmc: anyway instead of arguing with zzo38 implement @ for me
05:07:24 <kmc> it makes sense that esoteric languages would attract the "zomg your program uses 1 MB of RAM" people
05:07:36 <zzo38> I intend for one thing the format to be use as is pipe from one program to another if some header information is still needed (such as sample rate and so on); not to store in a file, although it still can be stored in a file if wanted
05:07:40 <shachaf> kmc: Since when is this channel about esoteric languages?
05:07:54 <kmc> but it makes me really super irrationally angry when this wanking over unrealistic size constraints crosses over into practical non-esoteric designs
05:08:13 <kmc> zzo38: magic number and header size are still important there
05:08:16 <elliott> kmc: are you ever not annoyed at something
05:08:26 <kmc> again, header size preserves compatibility between versions of the format
05:08:27 <shachaf> I wonder whether elliott has me on /ignore again.
05:08:42 <kmc> put another way, are you certain you've just now thought of every field you will ever want
05:09:13 <kmc> so, usefulness of my argument aside
05:09:19 <kmc> do other people agree with what i'm saying
05:09:20 <kmc> or am i crazy
05:09:37 <elliott> i would personally design it the way you suggest
05:09:44 <elliott> i don't think zzo38 is under any particular obligation to
05:09:48 <elliott> and he can design whatever format he wants
05:09:52 <zzo38> Some of the fields I have I think are not even needed
05:10:07 <kmc> right i don't think zzo38 is under any "obligation" either
05:10:15 <kmc> zzo38 is free to design a bad format if they like
05:10:26 <elliott> but really it's pointless arguing with someone who clearly has a different value system for these goals than you here
05:10:30 <kmc> but this started with the question
05:10:32 <kmc> <zzo38> Is this good?
05:10:36 <kmc> and my answer is
05:10:41 <kmc> so that's that
05:11:20 <zzo38> There could be three bytes for indicating number of channels (rather than enumeration) and signed/unsigned and endian and number of bits and then one more for video synchronization number or track number.
05:11:54 <kmc> "When the going gets tough, you don't want a criminal lawyer, you want a *criminal* laywer, know what I'm saying?"
05:12:10 <zzo38> The format is not meant to change
05:12:14 <elliott> kmc: why haven't you coded any @ yet
05:14:23 <pikhq> kmc: Sometimes, I do get offended at programs using 1 MiB of RAM.
05:14:36 <pikhq> ... When that's actually only doable via bad code.
05:14:49 <pikhq> /bin/cat shouldn't use 1 MiB.
05:15:16 <zzo38> pikhq: I agree it shouldn't require that much RAM to run
05:16:01 <pikhq> shachaf: I doubt it.
05:16:15 <pikhq> shachaf: Just using it as an example of something that would be bloated if it were using that much.
05:16:49 <kmc> mightn't cat have a big buffer?
05:17:22 <shachaf> cat on Linux can probably just use something like splice, can't it?
05:17:24 <zzo38> Maybe this way better: Address 0x00 = magic number; Address 0x01 = four bits for number of channels (1 to 16), four bits for number of bits (1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, ..., 32768); Address 0x02 = one bit for endian, one bit for signed/unsigned, rest unused should be set to zero; Address 0x03 = track number or video synchronization number; Address 0x04 to 0x07 = sample rate in decihertz. Is this way better? Now it has magic number
05:17:56 <elliott> shachaf: Doesn't splice only work between files?
05:18:53 <shachaf> splice() moves data between two file descriptors without copying between kernel address space and user address space. It transfers up to len bytes of data from the file descriptor fd_in to the file descriptor fd_out, where one of the descriptors must refer to a pipe.
05:19:18 <zzo38> If you want extensions for new version, make the high six bits at address 0x02 to be the number of additional four-byte pieces of heading.
05:19:20 <elliott> Right, well, I knew it was stupid somehow.
05:21:59 <zzo38> Is this way better now?
05:26:00 <zzo38> Actually I think magic number really is not needed. Let's address 0x00 = track number or video synchronization number; address 0x01 = four bits for number of channels (1 to 16), four bits for number of bits (1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, ..., 32768); Address 0x02 = one bit for endian, one bit for signed/unsigned, rest unused should be set to zero (reserved for future use); address 0x03 = additional header (after sample rate)
05:26:43 <zzo38> Now I think it is better.
05:29:47 <zzo38> Now you can have more than six channels
05:31:17 <shachaf> zzo38: Why are you worrying about the number of header bits when you'll be sending an uncompressed audio stream over the pipe?
05:33:44 <zzo38> shachaf: I just want to omit redundancy
05:37:05 <zzo38> The data can now be from 1 to 16 channels with from 1 to 32768 bits for the data, and there is still some space left over for future expansion
05:38:47 <pikhq> You're worried about bits in the header.
05:38:47 <kmc> nice arrow bro
05:38:52 <pikhq> I have trillions of them.
05:41:40 <zzo38> If the sample rate is set to zero then it means that there is no setting for the sample rate
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09:44:48 <fizzie> The sample audio data compression format is, as far as I know, not really documented anywhere. But if you're writing files, you can just opt to not use it; there's a flag in the sample header that says compressed/not. (I've written my decompression code -- because real Impulse Tracker files *do* use it -- based on the code in libmikmod.)
09:46:26 <zzo38> I have seen tat yes, you can use uncompressed samples. And I am doing writing; I am trying to make "ITMCK", like "PPMCK" and "XPMCK" and so on but for .IT output
09:52:12 <zzo38> (I suppose if the user tells it to load a "IMPS" sample file, it can simply load that and not worry about compression)
09:59:18 <zzo38> Why doesn't the volume/panning column support tremolo?
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10:03:59 <fizzie> That's a question probably only whoever wrote it can answer. (It does have those effects for the effect column.)
10:05:31 <fizzie> (There's even some unused values for the volume/panning column it could use.)
10:09:32 <zzo38> Yes I did see that
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12:16:30 <zzo38> How to calculate what tone-portamento speed is required for a specified note in a specified number of frames?
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16:44:01 <HackEgo> 62) <Oranjer> oohhh <Oranjer> ha <Oranjer> heh <madbrain> and what are your other characteristics? <Oranjer> oh, many, madbrain <Oranjer> but it's hardly worth it to go on with listing that list here
16:44:43 <HackEgo> 569) <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Sort of a monadic human centipede.
16:44:43 <HackEgo> 825) <elliott> i just whacked it <monqy> whacking is fine
16:44:43 <HackEgo> 82) <MissPiggy> bi is like sqrt(2)/2 * straight + i * sqrt(2)/2 * gay
16:44:43 <HackEgo> 403) <oerjan> i never meta turing. he died before i was born.
16:45:34 <itidus21> thems some high quality quotes
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17:25:24 <fizzie> What a good selection.
17:29:16 <itidus21> i don't like 569 a lot but thats probably because i'm not such a big haskell fan
17:29:32 <itidus21> but it's got substance, even if i can't appreciate that substance
17:31:39 <elliott> 569 could use more context
17:33:43 <itidus21> so i'm getting more used to the idea i am actually mentally ill
17:37:17 <oklopol> take a mentally pill for your mentally ill and you mentally get better will, i'm sure
17:38:12 <fizzie> I am at a social happening, and it's weird.
17:39:01 <fizzie> A spontaneousish thing.
17:39:18 <fizzie> An "after-party" of sorts. You know, that sort of thing.
17:39:46 <nortti> I am just sitting home on irc and programming
17:39:48 <itidus21> i tend to prefer the food to the drink
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17:40:04 <Taneb> How odd, I'm alive
17:41:45 <itidus21> those mini spinach quiche finger foods
17:41:57 <fizzie> (Actually, it's tangentially related to this "ALT" thing that I've mentioned.)
17:42:04 <Taneb> quiche isn't finger food
17:42:35 <itidus21> is there an image equivalent of @google?
17:43:02 <lambdabot> Title: imagehat studio - a web design company just outside of madison, wisconsin
17:43:39 <itidus21> http://metroespresso.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Salmon-and-Leek-Mini-Quiche.jpg
17:44:13 <itidus21> this is what i have in mind approximately
17:45:06 <oklopol> i'm gonna go exchange money for goods
17:45:23 <itidus21> http://www.gourmetdelish.com.au/images/Bacon%20and%20Egg%20Finger%20food.jpg
17:47:41 <itidus21> for every day spent hungry, tired, lost, depressed.. may there be a day of delighting in finger foods
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18:22:37 <oerjan> DMM seems to be writing about half of the comments on a postcard these days.
18:23:27 <oerjan> also http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/197.html explains how he has so much time, i think
18:23:45 <oerjan> (even he uses it all up)
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18:44:44 <lambdabot> monqy: You have 15 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
18:45:29 <monqy> 11:45:19 <lambdabot> Plugin `tell' failed with: thread killed
18:50:22 <nortti> "Only wimps use tape backup; real men just upload their important stuff on ftp and let rest of the world mirror it" --Linus Torvalds
18:51:57 <Taneb> Where wimps == people with no friends
18:53:03 <zzo38> What kind of physical media backup work best?
18:53:23 <Taneb> Expensive and slow, though
18:54:45 <ion> zzo38: Depends on your needs. I’ve backed up some files as QR code on paper with a laser printer.
18:54:45 <oerjan> clay is also fireproof, i think
18:54:49 <zzo38> I have access to a fireproof safe.
18:55:07 <pikhq_> zzo38: Currently, several hard drives.
18:55:17 <oerjan> (fire actually makes it _more_ long-lived)
18:55:48 <pikhq_> And yes, I guess you could glaze in QR codes. :)
18:55:52 <zzo38> pikhq_: All of my data will probably not even fill one hard drive
18:56:07 <pikhq_> zzo38: The "several" bit is for redundancy.
18:56:21 <ion> Just put a “0.” in front of the number representing your entire data and put a mark at that exact point on a wooden plank.
18:56:39 <zzo38> How many are needed for good enough redundancy?
18:57:28 <zzo38> ion: I think that is impossible; no tools are exact enough, the wood can rot, and Heisenberg's uncertainty principle also gets in the way.
18:57:45 <ion> lim_{redundancy→good} numDisks = ∞
18:57:53 <zzo38> Either that or you would need big wood
18:58:00 <ion> zzo38: OH, REALLY?
18:59:33 <nortti> "In short: just say NO TO DRUGS, and maybe you won't end up like the Hurd people."
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08:33:13 <Gregor> Something is desperately wrong X_X
08:33:27 <Gregor> But I can't easily figure it out or fix it 'til I'm back in the States.
08:38:13 <Taneb> Gregor, I think I've got a cold
08:38:29 <Gregor> Get off my Internet, I'll get sick.
08:38:37 <Gregor> The Great Firewall is not enough to block your germs.
08:40:17 <Gregor> The term "germ" subsumes viruses X_X
08:40:50 <Taneb> I always assume germ was an alternative to bacteria
08:41:00 <Gregor> Then you "assume" wrong.
08:41:20 <Gregor> The term "germ" applies to any small, disease-causing entity, be it a virus, bacteria, fungus, parasite or otherwise.
08:41:21 <Taneb> Well, you learn stuff all the time
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08:47:22 <kmc> what about heavy metal atoms
08:48:25 <Gregor> kmc: Hmm ... actually, I'd say it's probably debatable whether it does or does not. But typically it's only used for things at least as "alive" as viruses.
09:09:50 <nortti> http://www.gameplox.com/2012/06/16/quoting-the-internet-playing-games-after-age-20-is-not-normal/
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09:11:53 <ion> I would still like to point out that sitting alone in your room and watching movies, no matter what the scope of the matter, call it addiction or whatnot, is not normal for a man in his 20s.
09:13:03 <nortti> I would still like to point out that sitting alone in your room and reading books, no matter what the scope of the matter, call it addiction or whatnot, is not normal for a man in his 20s.
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09:15:43 <Taneb> I would still like to point out that sitting alone in your room and plotting to kill everyone, no matter what the scope of the matter, call it addiction or whatnot, is perfectly normal for a man in his 20s.
09:15:50 <oklopol> is she saying more generally that it's not normal to enjoy being alone?
09:17:56 <Taneb> I definitely communicate online more than face-to-face, but then again, I'm not really that normal
09:28:58 <quintopia> http://www.imgur.com/yQN9j remember him?
09:33:14 <oklopol> i wonder if when books got popular, people criticized them for replacing looking at real actors with real friends with sitting alone in a room and looking at symbols.
09:33:19 <kmc> what a crock of shit
09:33:35 <kmc> video games are like a $65 billion a year global industry
09:33:37 <oklopol> perhaps at some point people realize video games are way closer to chilling with your buddies than reading.
09:33:43 <kmc> i suppose all that money comes from teenagers and serial killers?
09:33:50 <Taneb> oklopol, they were criticised for destroying memory
09:33:52 <ion> and teenager serial killers
09:34:04 <ion> not to mention serial teenager killers
09:34:20 <Taneb> Yeah, as opposed to oral tradition
09:34:33 <shachaf> kmc: $65 billion a year? Isn't Farmville about half of that?
09:34:34 <oklopol> i thought you meant video games
09:35:44 <kmc> zynga reported $311.2 million revenue in Q4 2011
09:36:03 <Phantom_Hoover> <oklopol> i wonder if when books got popular, people criticized them for replacing looking at real actors with real friends with sitting alone in a room and looking at symbols.
09:36:25 <Phantom_Hoover> I know the Greeks said that writing would make everyone stop being able to remember things.
09:38:48 <oklopol> yeah, but i'm referring to the social aspect, memory doesn't have much to do with serial killers.
09:39:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Dunno, I'm not really sure when books got popular as a form of entertainment.
09:40:27 <Gregor> I wonder if when marbles became popular, people criticized how they brewed competition and unfriendliness, unlike pushing a hoop with a stick down a dirt road.
09:41:04 <oklopol> well that's a bit off-topic
09:41:47 <Gregor> I'm just making stupid jokes *shrugs*
09:41:52 <Phantom_Hoover> And what they were saying was more like "no, Anders, sitting alone in your room playing games does not prove you're not crazy".
09:42:38 <oklopol> Gregor: pushing a hoop with a stick down a dirt road is trivial, and lets your brain be lazy.
09:42:47 <Gregor> quintopia: 5:45PM. I'mma go get food soon.
09:43:03 <Gregor> oklopol: Is it? I actually have no idea how much skill is involved. Would depend on the exact shape of the hoop, I suppose.
09:43:15 <Gregor> quintopia: Yes, it is in the opposite timezone of EST.
09:43:17 <oklopol> Gregor: we have discussed this before
09:43:30 <Gregor> oklopol: Yes. Yes we have. But I don't remember things 8-D
09:43:46 <quintopia> i was logreading from last february
09:43:48 <oklopol> it is something a 20 plus male can do instantly.
09:44:12 <oklopol> well how dirty a road are we talking
09:44:24 <Phantom_Hoover> I remember in school we got shown all these antique toys so we could see how miserable past children are and those things are impossible to keep upright.
09:44:26 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover is the hoop-and-stick champion of Scotland.
09:44:39 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Naw, modern children are just stupid is all.
09:44:50 <oklopol> i seem to recall quite the opposit
09:45:00 <quintopia> i was reading about all the ridiculous ideas we had about a bfjoust scoring system before i came up with the one in the topic
09:45:53 <oklopol> you tried stilts and they were trivial with any kind of grip though, right?
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09:47:02 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't think I've tried stilts, with or without a grip.
09:47:03 <quintopia> obtw did you bring codu back up Gregor
09:48:03 <oklopol> yeah jacks is kind of boring
09:48:39 <oklopol> you mean the game with the ball and the weird little murder tools?
09:49:52 <quintopia> makes me think of that firefly episode
09:50:04 <oklopol> a friend of mine wants to start playing go
09:51:01 <oklopol> chess is a horrible game, and i'm not sure i ever want to play it again
09:51:28 <Phantom_Hoover> I just kept wondering how I could upgrade my pawns to have a rocket launcher.
09:51:40 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, you need to talk to kallisti for that
09:52:48 <oklopol> well that was my point, i wonder if it's very likely that go is more fun.
09:53:38 <oklopol> that looks even more complicated than chess
09:55:25 <oklopol> yes, will consider chess halo
09:55:51 <oklopol> quintopia: doesn't go have like one rule
09:56:01 <oklopol> put down shit and remove surrounded stuffs.
09:56:13 <quintopia> oklopol: yes but also a lot of traditions
09:56:29 <oklopol> that's not part of the rules
09:56:40 <quintopia> its stuff you have to know to play
09:56:49 <quintopia> and the traditions are arguably part of the rules
09:57:04 <oklopol> yeah but it's not part of the rules, i have nothing against learning theorems, it's complicated axioms i despise.
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09:57:13 <quintopia> anyway, go is simple to describe, impossible to play well
09:59:04 <shachaf> > let f :: a -> Ord a => a -> Ordering; f = compare in f 1 2
09:59:05 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (GHC.Classes.Ord a) from the context ()
09:59:09 <shachaf> > let f :: a -> Ord a => a -> Ordering; f x y = compare x y in f 1 2
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10:29:07 <Taneb> So, you can but please never, ever do so.
10:30:18 <Taneb> It's possible to do that, but don't
10:30:22 <Taneb> Because it is wrong
10:30:28 <Taneb> And will be fixed eventually
10:31:46 <shachaf> Which part are you talking about?
10:31:53 <shachaf> Both lines I gave should behave like the second one.
10:32:09 <Taneb> I was thinking about the Ord a in the middle
10:52:35 <shachaf> Is it just me or is #haskell way worse than it used to be?
10:54:39 <Taneb> Civilisation is a Shepard tone
10:55:01 <Taneb> Constantly seeming to decline, while remaining about the same
10:56:25 <Taneb> Hell, it's like the tri-tone paradox
10:56:56 <Taneb> In that in different points of view, it appears to be either ascending or descending
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10:58:30 <Gregor> <quintopia> obtw did you bring codu back up Gregor // If I'm online, Codu is up.
10:58:40 <Sgeo> Taneb, monqy tswett MAJOR UPDATE
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11:26:59 <Gregor> I don't understand how rm can take up 100% CPU for substantial amounts of time.
11:30:01 <itidus21> the majority of data written to harddisks is largely unimportant
11:40:50 <itidus21> regarding: I would still like to point out that sitting alone in your room and X, no matter what the scope of the matter, call it addiction or whatnot, is Y for a man in his 20s.
11:42:03 <itidus21> eventually such issues will dominate the world.. just as oil rose to signifigance
11:42:44 <itidus21> i mean, it's still a relatively niche geek topic today, but tomorrow, we will realize it's a systemic crisis
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11:45:27 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/BjYV
11:45:38 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 63.4
11:46:13 <quintopia> only slight improvement yes, but adds one more + to its row
11:46:46 <itidus21> Seinfeld 2012: the web surfers
11:48:35 -!- quintopia has set topic: NOW WITH EDIT WARS | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ (link down, see http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D for now) | This is what the bfjoust hill will look like under the new scoring system: http://sprunge.us/fePD.
11:49:06 -!- quintopia has set topic: NOW WITH EDIT WARS | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | This is what the bfjoust hill will look like under the new scoring system: http://sprunge.us/fePD.
11:49:22 <Gregor> http://www.facebook.com/LawlabeeTheWallaby/posts/3487379977305 // Latest, and possibly final, travel log entry!
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11:56:54 <itidus21> i like the kazoo, the harmonica, the didgeridoo, the bagpipes, the ocarina (because of zelda), the piccolo (because of dragon ball), the organ, and the theremin
11:57:03 <itidus21> no idea what a kazoo is though
11:58:06 <Sgeo> Does saying I sold more than 1,674 copies of a script in Second Life look good on a resume?
11:58:09 <itidus21> and that plastic wind instrument made famous by the world cup
11:59:21 <Gregor> So you're pretty well obsessed with shitty instruments then.
12:02:08 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
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12:09:28 <Sgeo> Would PSOX look terrible on a resume?
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12:15:51 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >(>[(<[{}[-]](+)*25>)%21(++++>)*5(>(+)*21[-][+][-])*21]++)*28
12:15:54 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 8.2
12:16:07 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >(>[(<[{}[-]](+)*25>)%21(++++>)*5(>(+)*30[-][+][-])*21]++)*28
12:16:10 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 9.0
12:16:26 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >(>[(<[{}[-]](+)*25>)%21(++++>)*5(>(+)*40[-][+][-])*21]++)*28
12:16:29 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 8.6
12:16:48 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >(>[(<[{}[-]](+)*40>)%21(++++>)*5(>(+)*30[-][+][-])*21][-]++)*28
12:16:51 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 10.9
12:17:10 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >(>[(<[{}[-]](+)*40>)%21(++++>)*5(>(+)*30[-][+][-])*21][-][+][-]++)*28
12:17:12 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 10.6
12:17:23 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >(>[(<[{}[-]](+)*40>)%21(++++>)*5(>(+)*30[-][+][-])*21]++)*28
12:17:25 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 10.1
12:17:32 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >(>[(<[{}[-]](+)*40>)%21(++++>)*5(>(+)*30[-][+][-])*21][-]++)*28
12:17:35 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 10.9
12:19:01 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >(>[(<[{(<[{}[-]](+)*10>)%17}[-]](+)*40>)%4(++++>)*5(>(+)*30[-][+][-])*21][-]++)*28
12:19:03 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 8.9
12:20:26 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >(>[(<[{(<[{}[-]](+)*40>)%4}[-]](+)*10>)%17(++++>)*5(>(+)*30[-][+][-])*21][-]+)*28
12:20:28 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 9.2
12:20:34 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >(>[(<[{(<[{}[-]](+)*40>)%4}[-]](+)*10>)%17(++++>)*5(>(+)*30[-][+][-])*21][-]++)*28
12:20:37 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 8.0
12:20:50 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >(>[(<[{(<[{}[-]](+)*30>)%4}[-]](+)*10>)%17(++++>)*5(>(+)*30[-][+][-])*21][-]+)*28
12:20:52 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 9.1
12:21:01 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >(>[(<[{(<[{}[-]](+)*30>)%4}[-]](+)*20>)%17(++++>)*5(>(+)*30[-][+][-])*21][-]+)*28
12:21:03 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 9.1
12:21:26 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >(>[(<[{(<[{}[-]](+)*30>)%7}[-]](+)*5>)%14(++++>)*5(>(+)*30[-][+][-])*21][-]+)*28
12:21:29 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 10.9
12:25:22 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >(>[(<[{(<[{}[-]](+)*20>)%17}[-]](+)*5>)%4(++++>)*5(>(+)*30[-][+][-])*21][-]+)*28
12:25:25 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 8.9
12:25:32 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >(>[(<[{(<[{}[-]](+)*40>)%17}[-]](+)*5>)%4(++++>)*5(>(+)*30[-][+][-])*21][-]+)*28
12:25:34 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 9.6
12:25:46 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >(>[(<[{(<[{}[-]](+)*40>)%17}[-]](+)*15>)%4(++++>)*5(>(+)*30[-][+][-])*21][-]+)*28
12:25:49 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 9.9
12:26:03 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >(>[(<[{(<[{}[-]](+)*40>)%17}[-]](+)*15>)%4(++++>)*5(>(+)*30[-][+][-])*21][-]++)*28
12:26:05 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 10.7
12:26:24 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >(>[(<[{(<[{}[-]](+)*40>)%17}[-]](+)*20>)%4(++++>)*5(>(+)*30[-][+][-])*21][-]++)*28
12:26:27 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 10.9
12:31:42 <Gregor> Your nanopoke is looking less nano by the instant.
12:33:20 <quintopia> well i cant use "micropoke" because you did that first
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12:34:32 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >(>[(<)*5(<[{(<[{}--[-]](+)*40>)%17}--[-]](+)*20>)%4(++++>)*5(>(+)*30[-][+][-])*21][-]++)*28
12:34:34 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 9.8
12:34:42 <quintopia> it's amazing how many ties it forces
12:35:17 <lambdabot> Local time for itidus21 is Sun Jun 17 22:33:50
12:35:30 <Taneb> itidus21, buy a clock?
12:35:34 <quintopia> well none of these variations is getting it a score high enough to stay on the hill
12:37:39 <quintopia> !bfjoust return_of_Gregor_micropoke (>)*9([ (<)*8(+)*85<(-)*85(>)*9 ([-]>)*21 ]>)*21
12:37:42 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_return_of_Gregor_micropoke: 18.7
12:40:42 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >(>[(<)*5(<[{(<[{}[-]](+)*40>)%17}[-]](+)*20>)%4(++++>)*5(>(+)*30[-][+][-])*21][-]++)*28
12:40:45 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 10.4
12:41:16 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >(>[(<)*7(<[{(<[{}[-]](+)*40>)%17}[-]](+)*20>)%4(++++>)*7(>(+)*30[-][+][-])*21][-]++)*28
12:41:19 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 10.7
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12:43:33 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >(>[(<[{}[-]](+)*5>)%21(++++>)*5(>(+)*40[-][+][-])*21]++)*28
12:43:36 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 9.6
12:43:48 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >(>[(<)*5(<[{}[-]](+)*5>)%21(++++>)*5(>(+)*40[-][+][-])*21]++)*28
12:43:51 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 10.6
12:44:02 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_suicide: 12.7
12:44:21 <Gregor> Better than your nanopoke ;)
12:44:24 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_suicide: 13.0
12:44:58 <Gregor> !bfjoust lameomatic -*100000
12:45:01 <EgoBot> Score for Gregor_lameomatic: 10.0
12:45:05 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >(>[(<[{}[-]](+)*5>)%21(>(+)*40[-][+][-])*21]++)*28
12:45:08 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 8.9
12:45:17 <nortti> !bfjoust suicide (-)*-1
12:45:20 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_suicide: 15.8
12:45:32 <nortti> !bfjoust suicide (-.)*-1
12:45:36 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_suicide: 13.3
12:45:40 <nortti> Vorpal: repeat infinitely
12:45:44 <EgoBot> Score for Taneb_awful: 10.0
12:45:54 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >(>[(<[{}[-]](+)*5>)%21+++++[>](>(+)*40[-][+][-])*21]++)*28
12:45:56 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 4.3
12:46:15 <Vorpal> !bfjoust terrible (>)*-1
12:46:17 <EgoBot> Score for Vorpal_terrible: 0.0
12:46:29 <Vorpal> I beat you all, the lowest score
12:46:41 <EgoBot> Score for Taneb_awful2: 0.0
12:47:24 <quintopia> !bfjoust sitandspin (>[++++++++++++++++])*-1
12:47:27 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_sitandspin: 17.5
12:48:23 <quintopia> !bfjoust sitandspin (>)*9(>[[++++++++++++++++]])*-1
12:48:26 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_sitandspin: 15.9
12:48:26 <Vorpal> quintopia, you mean nanopoke?
12:48:32 <nortti> !bfjoust sitandspin (>[+++++++++++++++])*-1
12:48:35 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_sitandspin: 14.5
12:48:39 <nortti> !bfjoust sitandspin (>[++++++++++++++++])*-1
12:48:42 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_sitandspin: 17.5
12:48:46 <nortti> !bfjoust sitandspin (>[+++++++++++++++++])*-1
12:48:48 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_sitandspin: 11.2
12:48:55 <quintopia> !bfjoust sitandspin (>)*9(>+[++++++++++++++++])*-1
12:48:58 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_sitandspin: 2.1
12:49:09 <quintopia> !bfjoust sitandspin (>)*9(>[++++++++++++++++])*-1
12:49:12 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_sitandspin: 15.9
12:49:15 <quintopia> !bfjoust sitandspin (>)*9(>[++++++++++++++++])*-1
12:49:17 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_sitandspin: 15.9
12:49:28 <nortti> !bfjoust sitandspin (>)*8(>[+++++++++++++++++])*-1
12:49:31 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_sitandspin: 11.4
12:49:35 <quintopia> !bfjoust sitandspin (>)*9(>[++++++++++++++++])*-1
12:49:38 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_sitandspin: 15.9
12:49:58 <quintopia> !bfjoust sitandspin (>)*9(>[++])*-1
12:50:01 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_sitandspin: 15.7
12:50:05 <quintopia> !bfjoust sitandspin (>)*9(>[+++])*-1
12:50:08 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_sitandspin: 17.3
12:50:38 <quintopia> !bfjoust sitandspin (>)*9(>[+++](+)*5)*-1
12:50:40 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_sitandspin: 10.3
12:51:58 <quintopia> !bfjoust sitandspin (>)*9(>[+++])*-1
12:52:01 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_sitandspin: 17.3
12:55:49 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
13:08:11 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >(-)*5(>[(<)*3(+)*15<<((+)*5[<{}])%28(+)*20[>]>(>[-][+][-])*28])*28
13:08:14 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 11.6
13:09:02 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >(-)*3(>[(<)*3(+)*15<<((+)*3[<{}])%28(+)*20[>]>(>[-][+][-])*28])*28
13:09:05 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 14.8
13:09:48 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >-(>[(<)*3(+)*15<<+[<{}])%28(+)*20[(+)*10>]>(>[-][+][-])*28])*28
13:09:51 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 0.0
13:10:54 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >-(>[(<)*3(+)*15<<(+[<{}])%28(+)*20[(+)*10>]>(>[-][+][-])*28])*28
13:10:57 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 12.9
13:11:12 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >--(>[(<)*3(+)*15<<(++[<{}])%28(+)*20[(+)*10>]>(>[-][+][-])*28])*28
13:11:15 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 11.3
13:11:28 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >-(>[(<)*3(+)*15<<(+[<{}])%28(+)*20[(+)*5>]>(>[-][+][-])*28])*28
13:11:30 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 14.2
13:14:08 <Taneb> !bfjoust im_not_very_good_at_this >(-)*3>(+)*5>(-)*7>(-)*11>(+)*13>(+)*13>(-)*17>(-)*23[>[-.]]
13:14:11 <EgoBot> Score for Taneb_im_not_very_good_at_this: 0.2
13:14:41 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >-(>[(<)*3(+)*15<<(+[<{}])%28(+)*20[(+)*5>](+)*5>(>(+)*40[-][+][-])*28])*28
13:14:43 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 9.4
13:14:52 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >-(>[(<)*3(+)*15<<(+[<{}])%28(+)*20[(+)*5>](+)*5>(>(+)*9[-][+][-])*28])*28
13:14:54 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 12.7
13:15:04 <Gregor> !bfjoust CHAAAAAAARGE (>)*100
13:15:07 <EgoBot> Score for Gregor_CHAAAAAAARGE: 0.0
13:15:12 -!- copumpkin has joined.
13:15:27 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >-(>)*5(>[(<)*3(+)*15<<(+[<{}])%28(+)*20[(+)*5>](+)*5>(>(+)*9[-][+][-])*28])*28
13:15:30 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 14.7
13:15:53 <Taneb> Could Taneb_im_not_very_good_at_this be the worst serious BFJoust program ever?
13:17:30 <Lumpio-> !bfjoust i_dont_even --[-]
13:17:34 <EgoBot> Score for Lumpio-_i_dont_even: 12.7
13:17:40 <Gregor> Taneb: It's just your terminal loop that's broken
13:18:57 <nortti> Taneb: how can your program suck so hard?
13:19:33 <nortti> !bfjoust total_failure .*20<
13:19:36 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_total_failure: 0.0
13:19:48 <nortti> !bfjoust total_failure .*60<
13:19:51 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_total_failure: 0.0
13:19:59 <nortti> !bfjoust total_failure .*10000<
13:20:02 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_total_failure: 0.0
13:20:31 <Taneb> !bfjoust im_not_very_good_at_this >(-)*3>(+)*5>(-)*7>(-)*11>(+)*13>(+)*17>(-)*19>(-)*23(>[-.])*100
13:20:33 <EgoBot> Score for Taneb_im_not_very_good_at_this: 16.0
13:20:55 <Taneb> Wow, that made the hill
13:25:36 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
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13:38:36 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >-(>)*5(>[(<)*3(+)*16<<(+[<{}])%28(-)*40>(-)*40>(-)*40(>-[(>)*4(>[(+)*30[-]][+][-])*27](+)*30)*27])*28
13:38:39 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 33.5
13:39:45 <quintopia> Gregor: nanopoke is my answer to ffspg. it uses the same strategy...but it's a one-liner
13:40:33 <quintopia> (well, the poke/breadcrumb part anyway. it doesnt do that crazy careless clear stuff.)
13:40:53 <fizzie> !bfjoust headless_chicken (><)*50000
13:40:56 <EgoBot> Score for fizzie_headless_chicken: 12.5
13:46:44 <EgoBot> Score for mroman_muh: 14.2
13:47:27 <mroman> !bfjoust muh (>+>-)*5(-)*127
13:47:30 <EgoBot> Score for mroman_muh: 0.1
13:48:00 <nortti> oh come on. that is even worse than Taneb_im_not_very_good_at_this
13:48:18 <mroman> mroman_I_have_no_idea_how_the_fuck_this_works ;)
13:49:35 <nortti> !bfjoust muh_not_retarded (>+>-)*5([-.]>)
13:49:38 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_muh_not_retarded: 0.0
13:49:53 <nortti> !bfjoust muh_not_retarded (>+>-)*5([-.])
13:49:56 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_muh_not_retarded: 0.0
13:50:26 <nortti> !bfjoust muh_not_retarded (>+>-)*5([-.]>)*-1
13:50:28 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_muh_not_retarded: 10.7
13:52:27 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >-->(-)*3(>)*6(>[(<)*3(+)*16<<(++[<{}])%28<(+)*30>(-)*40>(-)*40>(-)*40(>--[(>)*4(>[(+)*30[-]][+][-])*27](+)*30)*27]++)*28
13:52:30 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 29.5
13:53:02 <nortti> pretty good compared to older ones
13:53:09 <EgoBot> Score for mroman_muh: 10.2
13:53:37 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 10.2
13:53:44 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 10.2
13:53:51 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele +.--.
13:53:54 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 10.2
13:54:02 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele +..--..
13:54:05 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 10.2
13:54:26 <fizzie> Trailing '.'s are indeed the best, given that running off the end of the program does the same thing as '.'.
13:55:02 <EgoBot> Score for mroman_muh: 11.6
13:56:27 <fizzie> !bfjoust the_simplest_thing (>)*9([-.]>)*21
13:56:29 <EgoBot> Score for fizzie_the_simplest_thing: 22.7
13:56:37 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (>+)*8>([-]>)*20
13:56:40 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 17.1
13:57:04 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (>+)*9([-]>)*20
13:57:07 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 14.5
13:57:27 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (>+)*9>([-]>)*11
13:57:30 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 1.6
13:57:34 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (>+)*9>([-]>)*12
13:57:36 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 2.4
13:57:38 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (>+)*8>([-]>)*12
13:57:40 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 3.6
13:57:42 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (>+)*8>([-]>)*11
13:57:45 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 3.0
13:57:46 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (>+)*8>([-]>)*20
13:57:49 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 17.1
13:57:57 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (>+)*8>([-]>)*19
13:58:00 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 15.1
13:58:07 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (>+)*8>([-]>)*21
13:58:10 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 19.4
13:58:13 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (>+)*8>([-]>)*22
13:58:15 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 19.7
13:58:17 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (>+)*8>([-]>)*23
13:58:20 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 19.7
13:58:21 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (>+)*8>([-]>)*24
13:58:24 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 19.7
13:58:27 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (>+)*8>([-]>)*-1
13:58:30 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 19.7
13:58:55 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (>>+)*4>([-]>)*-1
13:58:58 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 16.3
13:59:06 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (>->+)*4>([-]>)*-1
13:59:09 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 20.2
13:59:26 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (>->+)*4>-([-]>)*-1
13:59:29 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 6.7
13:59:33 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (>->+)*4>([-]>)*-1
13:59:36 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 20.2
13:59:38 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (>->+)*4>([-.]>)*-1
13:59:41 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 13.7
14:00:08 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (>->+)*4>([-]>)*10([-.]>)*-1
14:00:11 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 11.8
14:00:16 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (>->+)*4>([-]>)*-1
14:00:18 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 20.2
14:00:21 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (>-->+)*4>([-]>)*-1
14:00:24 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 18.5
14:00:27 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (>->+)*4>([-]>)*-1
14:00:30 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 20.2
14:00:47 <nortti> now I'll stop botspamming for a moment
14:02:13 <fizzie> It does work in a query, too.
14:02:51 <fizzie> (And of course the hill + code are available for local testing, for that matter, but that involves more fiddling.)
14:03:14 <tswett> Gregor: hey, do you know if there are any full body portraits of you floating around on top of the Internet?
14:03:44 <Gregor> That was the most terrifying question anyone has ever asked.
14:03:45 <fizzie> Gregor: Clothing optional, I presume.
14:03:51 <Gregor> So I'm just going to pretend I never heard it.
14:03:55 <nortti> hmm. why isn't my program in the hill?
14:04:10 <mroman> !bfjoust muh (>)*9[[-]>]
14:04:12 <EgoBot> Score for mroman_muh: 10.5
14:04:42 <nortti> never mind. it is there!
14:05:28 <tswett> The closest I've found is http://www.flickr.com/photos/tobiaswrigstad/3715548371/. But that's JUST NOT GOOD ENOUGH.
14:05:38 <Sgeo> tswett, you saw the UPDATE, right?
14:05:43 <mroman> !bfjoust muh (>)*4(+)*200[[-]>]
14:05:47 <EgoBot> Score for mroman_muh: 0.8
14:06:07 <mroman> I think I'm gonna stick with CoreWars :)
14:06:30 <tswett> Okay, the closest I've found is http://www.flickr.com/photos/tobiaswrigstad/3715548371/ + http://codu.org/chromates.jpg (NSFPWAE). Still NOT GOOD ENOUGH.
14:06:33 <nortti> mroman: or read bfjouds
14:06:52 <nortti> (Maybe I should also read it :P)
14:07:07 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >->(-)*5(>)*4(>[(<)*3(+)*16<<(+[<{}])%28>(-)*70<(-)*70>(>-[(>)*4(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*9[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](+)*30)*27]++)*25
14:07:10 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 12.4
14:07:16 <Gregor> tswett: What does "NSFPWAE" stand for?
14:07:29 <tswett> Not safe for people who are eating.
14:08:29 <tswett> I dunno. I'm not currently eating, and I find the photo perfectly lookable.
14:08:33 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >->(-)*5(>)*4(>[(<)*3(+)*16<<(+[<{}])%28>(-)*50<(-)*50>(>-[(>)*4(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*15[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](+)*30)*27]++)*25
14:08:36 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 18.7
14:09:03 <tswett> Anyway, I think I'll resort to drawing this guy instead: http://marriageministries.net/images/Gardner%20full%20length.jpg
14:09:23 <tswett> I will become Deviantart's most accomplished Tim Alan Gardner portraitist.
14:10:52 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
14:11:41 <Gregor> tswett: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1047472701148&l=71244343ce
14:12:48 <tswett> This cookie is DELICIOUS.
14:14:47 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >->(-)*5(>)*4(>[(<)*3(+)*16<<(+[<{}])%28>(-)*50<(-)*50>(>-[(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*15[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](+)*50)*27]++)*25
14:14:49 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 35.3
14:15:53 <quintopia> because it beats space_elevator >_>
14:16:41 <tswett> Actually, the cookie's not that great. But I am deriving the most profound pleasure from this photograph.
14:21:28 <tswett> Actually, no, I'm finding the Tim Gardner photo a tad more usable.
14:21:37 <tswett> If you know what I mean.
14:22:28 <Gregor> tswett: The alternative title for that photo is "Gardner in Purgatory"
14:23:17 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >->(-)*5(>)*4(>[(<)*3(+)*16<<(+[<{}])%28>(-)*50<(-)*50>(>-[(+)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*15[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](+)*50)*27]++)*25
14:23:19 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 37.9
14:23:38 <tswett> I guess purgatory must be, like, blank.
14:25:57 <quintopia> @ask fizzie could you run clustering and decoy analysis on the current hill plox?
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14:31:58 <Taneb> Did you ever do that bit of thinking?
14:36:37 -!- david_werecat has joined.
14:42:10 <david_werecat> I'm trying, though my laptop has been overheating, giving BSOD's and performing poorly for the past week.
14:43:32 <david_werecat> It also looks like I'll need to change the core of dreadnought if I want to gain any more gound.
14:45:37 <fizzie> quintopia: I ran the thingamajik. The page is updataded. (Though the clustering should really use other features than just the results, arguably.)
14:45:38 <lambdabot> fizzie: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
14:46:39 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >->(-)*5(>)*4(>[(<)*3(+)*16<<(+[<{}])%28>(-)*50<(-)*50>(>-[(+)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*15[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](+)*50)*27]--)*25
14:46:42 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 34.1
14:46:50 <quintopia> !bfjoust nanopoke >->(-)*5(>)*4(>[(<)*3(+)*16<<(+[<{}])%28>(-)*50<(-)*50>(>-[(+)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*15[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](+)*50)*27]++)*25
14:46:52 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 37.9
14:50:26 <fizzie> quintopia: http://zem.fi/egostats/
14:59:10 <quintopia> fizzie: i think you could cluster on the number-of-wins-per-tape-length data
15:20:23 <elliott> I think I'll see if I can rope ais523 into arguing my side wrt quintopia's thread.
15:20:53 <elliott> "On the other hand, everyone could just agree this is a pretty lame thing to do in most cases and preferentially treat those who innovate new strategies." This won't happen, since everyone tweaks constants anyway, and ais523 even has a program that does it for him, generically.
15:21:58 <elliott> quintopia: Ugh, you used <br> for paragraph breaks.
15:47:09 <itidus21> I dunno who Tim Gardner is but he has classy threads.
16:11:10 <elliott> fizzie: I see you've had "Linux" "Torvalds" talk at "Wave".
16:12:14 <ion> QWOP cosplay http://youtu.be/Z1TM90jWXKM
16:20:14 <fizzie> elliott: Yeah, I didn't bother attending though. Some people who were there said he didn't say anything terribly interesting.
16:21:16 <itidus21> "QWOP cosplay"..... what? ah this marks the beginning of the age of houses made of cellophane
16:26:16 <ion> A Den of Kittens http://youtu.be/RM5hQ3Qtf-8
16:47:46 <elliott> fizzie: It seems like you missed http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MShbP3OpASA#t=49m50s, mostly.
16:57:00 <fizzie> Oh, this is the afternoon talk, okay. There was a general-audience morning thing, too.
16:58:37 <fizzie> He seems to be as polite as ever.
17:09:33 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: bye).
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17:40:51 <itidus21> I have this idea of a graphics format. Basically what you would expect from me.
17:42:11 <Taneb> Overlapping translucent polygons?
17:42:11 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
17:42:30 <itidus21> have i already said it before?
17:42:42 <itidus21> well polygons isn't the exact word
17:44:39 <itidus21> 1st datum = width. subsequent data are in pairs. the first datum in each pair is a colour. second datum is a 1d address in the image.
17:45:05 <itidus21> and at the address in that image, there is some arbitrary 1bit stamp drawn in the given colour
17:46:10 <itidus21> and the idea is to select some clever stamp/pattern i am unsure of the best term here.. with which to draw something
17:48:08 <itidus21> the ideal behind it, which in practice is guaranteed to fail, is the idea that there might be some pattern of bits which when overlapped substantially can create useful images
17:50:42 -!- zzo38 has joined.
17:51:46 <coppro> https://submissions.epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/31659
17:56:27 <Taneb> What's that huh meaning
17:57:41 <itidus21> this is basically what i am saying, since what i said may have been too rambly http://oi48.tinypic.com/doul1d.jpg
18:03:08 <itidus21> yeah this pic really says it all
18:06:04 <itidus21> i guess if i expanded it by allowing it to have a pallette of patterns of a fixed size, then i would be encroaching upony plagiarising many 8bit graphics systems!
18:06:58 <oklopol> for a second there i thought you were doing tilings
18:07:42 <oklopol> it's basically an open problem whether you can do something interesting from a single tile like that
18:07:45 <itidus21> well i guess i am, except, overlapping tiles with transparent sections
18:08:24 <oklopol> that is, for instance whether there's a tile which gives only aperiodic tilings when you fill the plane with copies of it with no overlap
18:09:35 <oklopol> my supervisor proved a few years ago that if a tile doesn't tile periodically, its convex hull is basically a rectangle, iirc
18:10:08 <itidus21> ok ok .. you seem to have time to spare ill tell you which words i didnt quite fathom
18:10:08 <monqy> thanks for trying.
18:10:29 <itidus21> i understand filling a plane at least!
18:10:37 <oklopol> if you mark the centers of your tiles, the pattern is not periodic
18:11:13 <oklopol> i assume you can guess what it means for a subset of Z^2 to be periodic
18:11:58 <oklopol> okay, X is periodic in direction v if X+v = X, where v is a vector and X+v means adding the vector v to each vector in X
18:12:07 <oklopol> Z^2 is the discrete 2d plane, yes
18:12:11 <oklopol> the set of pairs of integers
18:13:25 <oklopol> ...and by X a subset of Z^2 being periodic i mean it has two vectors of periodicity that point in different directions
18:13:30 <itidus21> ok so, skipping that for a second, can i assume that overlapping tiles are basically uninteresting?
18:13:43 <oklopol> well i don't know what you can ask about those
18:14:13 <itidus21> maybe it's best i think about non overlapping
18:15:25 <oklopol> if you have more than one tile, you can get turing machines and stuff
18:16:07 <itidus21> i guess that the overlap is actually Z^3 in disguise
18:16:34 <oklopol> perhaps. iirc there's a single 3d tile which gives only aperiodic tilings.
18:16:40 <oklopol> it's this weird cockroach thing
18:17:37 <itidus21> i suppose it depends how you do it..
18:17:52 <itidus21> but.. when overlapping the tiles.. its kind of 2.5d
18:19:16 <itidus21> i am thinking about video games
18:20:02 <itidus21> ok so Z^2 is discrete 2d plane..
18:20:18 <oklopol> i had a bad math day, tried to prove this thing for 3 hours and came up with a counterexample
18:21:15 <itidus21> i don't actually know what you're saying about aperiodic tiling though
18:21:51 <itidus21> i guess periodic tiling in Z^2 is the whole chessboard, game of life, tictactoe thing
18:21:54 <oklopol> a tile is said to be aperiodic if whenever you fill the plane with it, you must have put your tiles in a pattern without a period.
18:23:05 <oklopol> the blacks of the chessboard are a periodic subset of Z^2, yes (if you continue infinitely in all directions)
18:24:58 <itidus21> it's fun for me to be taken so seriously.
18:25:37 <itidus21> I will now explain what it is that i am trying to do. And it's mostly a thought exercize.
18:27:00 <itidus21> using overlapping tiles in Z^2, with transparent areas, with 1 tile pattern but in different colours, to create images
18:28:23 <oklopol> okay, how about a 1x1 tile?
18:28:35 <itidus21> ya..! that can create any image
18:29:26 <oklopol> and let the rule be that when you have m overlapping tiles, the color is m mod n
18:29:33 <oklopol> now, i can draw anything you like with any tile
18:29:49 <itidus21> so if the tile was a 2x2 square.. then one such square could be drawn in red at (0,0) - (1,1) .. then another drawn over that in yellow at (1,1) - (2,2) and another drawn over that in red at (2,2) - (3,3)
18:30:06 <itidus21> and uh pardon the random notations
18:30:54 <oklopol> (if the rule is that i'm allowed to put tiles anywhere on the Z^2 plane, and infinitely many)
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18:31:54 <itidus21> it's my absurd way to describe an image
18:31:57 <oklopol> do you see why it's possible to draw anything?
18:32:28 <itidus21> you mean even a tile larger than 1x1
18:32:41 <itidus21> since you can use just the top left
18:33:41 <oklopol> yeah, it's used all the time when working with group shifts
18:34:16 <oklopol> although with polynomials so that it looks harder.
18:34:29 <itidus21> my motivations to think along these lines are really odd
18:35:36 <itidus21> i did it in a vain search for an underlying structure in 2d sprites
18:35:59 <elliott> oklopol: <BlastHardcheese> oklopode
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18:36:54 <itidus21> like, some way to avoid the brute force method of drawing sprites
18:37:41 <oerjan> something is wrong, the tunes log timezone seems to be on a whole hour...
18:38:47 <itidus21> oklopol: like i began this once by trying to use rectangles instead of patterns
18:39:15 -!- oerjan has set topic: NOW WITH ABSOLUTELY NO EDIT WARS | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | This is what the bfjoust hill will look like under the new scoring system: http://sprunge.us/fePD.
18:39:16 <itidus21> for some reason i grew tired of the rectangle idea.
18:39:43 <itidus21> the next idea i had was to represent an image as triangles
18:40:14 <oerjan> rectangles are a symbol of the conformity of the bourgeoisie!
18:40:54 <oerjan> wow i spelled it correctly
18:41:31 <itidus21> like i figured that i could map an entire bitmap to flatshaded non-overlapping rectangles
18:42:05 <itidus21> but when i tried to actually mock it up it all seemed awfully fiddly so i abandoned that
18:42:50 <fizzie> There's that overlapping-polys genetic-programming image-approximation thing that floated around the web a while ago. Mostly because the images look kinda spiffy, not because it'd be an especially good way of doing images; it uses quite low amount of polygons to get the particular paintingy look.
18:42:56 <fizzie> There's a gallery at http://rogeralsing.com/2008/12/11/genetic-gallery/
18:43:03 <fizzie> Has links to some of the earlier posts.
18:43:43 <itidus21> but by the time i start combining rectangles and bitmaps in one image i knew i was just recreating vector art
18:45:08 <itidus21> but no, i wanted a vector art married to a precise pixel resolution
18:49:32 <itidus21> while they may not be much use in math, i think that overlapped tiles are great for game graphics.. and underexploited
18:50:49 -!- coppro has set topic: NOW WITH TONS OF EDIT WARS | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | This is what the bfjoust hill will look like under the new scoring system: http://sprunge.us/fePD.
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18:52:52 <itidus21> fizzie: yup those triangles are cool
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18:56:15 <itidus21> oklopol: i just realized i didn't understand what you said about m and n at the time
18:56:35 <itidus21> but it doesn't matter.. im looking over it a bit closer
18:58:17 -!- oerjan has set topic: NO EDIT WARS, I SAID | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | This is what the bfjoust hill will look like under the new scoring system: http://sprunge.us/fePD.
19:01:21 <itidus21> oklopol: the important question is would you like to use a paint program based on that principle :P
19:02:24 <itidus21> i have to implement it one day
19:06:41 <itidus21> that would just be the strangest thing ever
19:08:03 <itidus21> i'm selling it short here, but one thing it hints at is a paint program where you click on a pixel to iterate it's colour
19:08:28 <itidus21> i haven't used a mac though.. maybe they done this
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19:09:39 <itidus21> infact you could just use the mousewheel
19:09:50 <zzo38> I don't like mousewheel
19:13:09 <itidus21> zzo38: so one concept arrived at is the idea of a paint program where, suppose its a black and white image.. you left click to toggle the pixel..
19:13:55 <pikhq> mkdir: cannot create directory `/home/pikhq/src/bootstrap-linux/work/gcc-build': File exists
19:14:16 <itidus21> using two buttons you could iterate the colour of the pixel in 2 directions over a small pallette
19:15:57 <oerjan> hm i'd assume there are paint programs which allow this already, although maybe not with a single click. but then again, some allow you to write scripts, so you can probably _make_ it a single click.
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19:16:29 <itidus21> this is the fruit of combining ideas with oklopol
19:16:30 * oerjan is really thinking of gimp here, which he played a bit with, years ago
19:17:19 <itidus21> but not only this.. you would also have a custom "stamp/tile pattern" tool you could draw.. and this would mean you could iterate the colours in a region
19:18:40 <oerjan> also something which you would imagine a script could do
19:19:56 <oerjan> in fact i vaguely recall a program which _did_ allow such tiling
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19:20:20 <oerjan> probably was either gimp or xdvi
19:20:40 <oerjan> it was an option for the copy/paste command
19:21:13 <zzo38> itidus21: Yes that is one thing to do, to make the button iterate over a palette
19:21:52 <zzo38> But probably better is to push the keys on the keyboard to switch the mode, and then depending on the mode it decides what the three mouse buttons do
19:22:11 <oerjan> xdvi was the program to show the result after embedding and running it through latex
19:22:33 <zzo38> xdvi is a DVI previewer.
19:22:46 <zzo38> When on Linux I use that. On Windows I use dviout
19:23:17 <zzo38> And then to print the DVI file on Linux, you can use the command dvilj4 or one of the related programs
19:23:42 <zzo38> On Windows, to print the DVI file select it from the menu
19:24:07 <fizzie> Deluxe Paint is I think the program all pixel artists love and adore and speak good things about. It does all kinds of stamp-pattern stuffs.
19:24:14 <itidus21> wow oklopol solved the wohle problem
19:24:28 <oerjan> anyway, i used xfig for all my thesis pictures, it allowed embedding latex in them without having to code the picture itself in latex
19:24:39 <fizzie> Oh, and stencils and whatnot.
19:25:28 <zzo38> There is another way to include pictures in TeX documents without using any DVI specials; I have written a program for that purpose. It only accepts ASCII PBM format as input but you can convert into that format with ImageMagick.
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19:28:13 <itidus21> what we have come up with, which exceeded my plans, is that you can have a bitmap file format by having nothing more than a list of coordinate addresses for a 1bit stamp/pattern which will be used to iterate a palette
19:28:49 <zzo38> That would seem a pretty bad format although it would work
19:29:47 <zzo38> Here is a program to include pictures in a TeX document: http://sprunge.us/QZFg
19:30:15 <itidus21> i must share credit for it with everyone who participated since my initial post about "<itidus21> I have this idea of a graphics format. Basically what you would expect from me."
19:30:40 <zzo38> At least it is done.
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19:40:26 <zzo38> How does the IFC and IFR fields work in the .IT format?
19:40:41 <quintopia> elliott: how should paragraph breaks be done inside of a bfjprog? enter-twice undoes the insetting of the template.
19:41:05 <elliott> quintopia: see the 2011 section, or the 2012 section now that i fixed it
19:42:27 <zzo38> What else I don't know is how do they switch between pitch/filter envelope?
19:47:16 <itidus21> realizing nothing at all has been achieved is htat it's paintfuck with stamps
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19:51:37 <Vorpal> hm bluetooth is pretty much standard in every modern laptop and netbook right? Why is on-board bluetooth on desktops not common (at least I never heard of it)
19:52:31 <Vorpal> not having on-board wifi is more reasonable, after all a desktop is (or at least used to be) connected by ethernet. But bluetooth mice and so on are not uncommon
20:00:41 <fizzie> I just ignore the IFC and IFR fields (and in fact the midi ones after them), so I don't know what they're for.
20:01:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, surely there must be a spec somewhere that explains it?
20:01:57 <Vorpal> also in what context did you ignore it? Did you implement a tracker?
20:02:21 <fizzie> Vorpal: I have a player, and the official spec is not very complete.
20:02:53 <Vorpal> look at the source of modplugplay or something like that?
20:03:19 <Vorpal> fizzie, also your player, does it do anything modplugplay doesn't?
20:03:22 <fizzie> I don't care to. Anyway, libmikmod sources are what I've used to fill in the blanks.
20:03:26 <Vorpal> if so, where can I download?
20:03:27 <zzo38> fizzie: Looking at the ModPlug Tracker, it seem they might be for the cutoff and resonance but I do not know how they are used. It also doesn't explain how to switch the envelope between filter/pitch (an option in ModPlug).
20:03:56 <zzo38> I am trying to make a program to write .IT file
20:04:21 -!- function has changed nick to const.
20:04:32 <fizzie> Vorpal: You can't download it anywhere, it certainly doesn't do anything extra except it's only two kilobytes or so and meant for converting an IT file to a self-playing executable.
20:05:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, self playing? So what output device does it use?
20:05:46 <Vorpal> (please please let it use the pc speaker)
20:06:22 <fizzie> (It was for a friend who wanted to participate in an executable music competition.)
20:06:30 <fizzie> /dev/dsp, if I recall correctly.
20:06:51 <Vorpal> hm looks like I need to order a new SIM card. I need a micro sim for my next phone. Which is kind of amusing since it will be significantly larger than my current phone, why would it need a micro sim rather than a mini sim...
20:06:55 <fizzie> It's one of those libc-less things, I wanted to have some fun writing it too.
20:07:18 <olsner> Vorpal: it's just packed full of SO MUCH other stuff
20:07:19 <fizzie> (It's in x86-32 asm for the same reason.)
20:07:29 <Vorpal> olsner, well probably, it is a Samsung Galaxy S3
20:07:41 <Vorpal> and currently I have a small keypad phone so
20:08:11 <Vorpal> still it doesn't save that much
20:08:23 <Vorpal> it isn't like full sized sim -> mini-sim
20:08:27 <Vorpal> that was a much larger change
20:09:34 <Vorpal> hm apperently there is also nano SIM
20:09:45 <olsner> 4.8 inch screen ... and a normal thumb is like 2 inches
20:10:01 <Vorpal> olsner, you don't want your thumb to cover the entire screen surely
20:10:19 <Vorpal> anyway I used another device of similar size and had no issue with it
20:10:45 <Vorpal> (a Samsung Galaxy Nexus. The S3 is like 4 mm wider or something)
20:10:59 <olsner> I usually use my thumb for input while using the rest of my hand to hold the phone
20:11:08 <olsner> but maybe you hang the phone on the wall and use it like LCARS
20:11:46 <olsner> it's that ridiculous touch interface they use in star trek
20:12:59 <nortti> vat ja ty■ll■■n el■v■t h■visiv■t.
20:13:07 <Vorpal> nortti, that looks broken?
20:13:14 <olsner> the galaxy nexus is like too big to be a phone but too small to be a tablet
20:13:26 <nortti> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/14/britain-unveils-electroni_0_n_1597529.html
20:13:30 <olsner> maybe due to apple lawsuit actions they can't make it the same size as the iphone?
20:13:33 <nortti> this is the correct one
20:13:35 <Vorpal> olsner, anyway I can't really use the thumb for on-screen keyboard for phones, I tend to put my thumb over several keys. I have large hands
20:14:21 <elliott> olsner: there's an OMG BIG PHONES trend on at the moment
20:14:29 <Vorpal> olsner, my thumb is ~7.5 cm (~2.95 inches)
20:14:31 <fizzie> zzo38: If it's cutoff/resonance, then it's part of the filter thing that's very badly documented, and e.g. modplug does/did it wrong; it has some not-in-the-manual 'Z' effects to control it too. It's some standard second-order IIR filter that it has.
20:15:08 <Vorpal> elliott, I predict that in 5-10 years we will be approaching the size of the early phones. Like small bags
20:15:20 <fizzie> zzo38: The formulas are documented in http://wiki.multimedia.cx/index.php?title=Impulse_Tracker#Resonant_filters if you really want to support them.
20:15:38 <Vorpal> olsner, anyway how can you do multitouch by just using your thumb
20:16:08 <olsner> but they have limited range
20:16:21 <Vorpal> olsner, I guess you just have small hands
20:16:41 <zzo38> fizzie: My program is meant for writing .IT musics not for playing them.
20:16:42 <fizzie> "It's not the size of the hand..."
20:17:21 <olsner> I think my hands aren't small, they're just not big enough to comfortably use the whole screen of a modern smartphone
20:17:23 <fizzie> zzo38: Well, yes, but if you want to support setting those values in some reasonable units, like Hz.
20:17:28 <nortti> I can type on my HTC Wildfire with my thumbs just fine. but then again I use GKOS keyboard
20:17:37 <Vorpal> olsner, from left ctrl on a full size standard PC keyboard (where left ctrl is the key in the bottom left corner, no funny fn-key stuff) how far can you reach? I can reach p comfortably with my right hand (thumb on ctrl, little finger on p)
20:17:44 <Vorpal> å I can reach if I stretch
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20:18:42 <oerjan> elliott: i'm looking at your reformatting, should a word in the introduction be bolded when it's really another article with a subset of the current name?
20:18:47 <Vorpal> nortti, what is the GKOS? I tend to use swype on phones
20:19:04 <nortti> Vorpal: 6 key chordede keyboard
20:19:23 <olsner> Vorpal: I can reach +åä- if I try
20:19:26 <elliott> oerjan: well I believe that is what WP's MOS states
20:19:33 <elliott> oerjan: it's a bit of an edge-case here
20:19:42 <Vorpal> olsner, ä is easy to reach for me
20:19:50 <nortti> but actually the touch version has 12 keys
20:20:09 <elliott> oerjan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Lead_section#Format_of_the_first_sentence
20:20:20 <Vorpal> elliott, thought it was a weird typo for TOS
20:20:56 <olsner> Vorpal: anyway, it's not a question of stuff being completely unreachable
20:20:58 <elliott> it doesn't seem to be covered there
20:21:11 <olsner> Vorpal: more that reaching the other end of the screen at the same time as holding the device is tricky and uncomfortable
20:21:32 <nortti> Vorpal: so you can easily simulate pressing 5 keys with your thumbs
20:21:38 <zzo38> fizzie: Also, that document does not explain the purpose of the IFC and IFR fields.
20:21:39 <Vorpal> olsner, well yes, but I can't type using just the thumb on a non-keypad phone anyway. I can scroll just fine with my thumb though
20:21:39 <olsner> and the problem is trivially solvable by not making the phone ridiculously big for no reason in the first place
20:21:50 <Vorpal> olsner, so yeah I don't think using such a phone is an issue.
20:22:08 <Vorpal> you can't make pixels that small
20:22:10 <oerjan> elliott: um "If the article's exact title is absent from the first sentence, do not apply the bold style to related text that does appear:" seems clear enough
20:22:26 <elliott> oerjan: yes, which is why that was the wrong thing to cite, I've definitely read otherwise elsewhere
20:22:29 <elliott> perhaps it was changed recently
20:22:33 <Vorpal> ~320 DPI is about max currently AFAIK (unless you go for electronic ink stuff)
20:22:36 <olsner> Vorpal: you will get some kind of RSI due to using your phone and then you will realize I am right
20:22:49 <Vorpal> olsner, I'm likely to use both hands if I'm typing
20:23:00 <Vorpal> I can't see why I should use just one hand for that anyway
20:23:20 <olsner> "Excuse me, sir, could you hold my phone while I use both my hands to type an SMS to my friend?"
20:23:32 <oerjan> elliott: in fact i read that section recently, which may be why your edit triggered my protest
20:23:35 <Vorpal> olsner, you hold it with one hand and type with the other?
20:23:42 <Vorpal> what are you talking about
20:23:52 <elliott> oerjan: you could just undo it
20:23:58 <olsner> Vorpal: no, that would be silly
20:24:16 <Vorpal> it is how I always done it on touch screens
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20:25:54 <Vorpal> oerjan, anyway, you need to do it like that anyway when you use google maps or such
20:26:10 <olsner> sounds like you'd have to use it like lcars then, holding your whole arm up to let your hand hover above the screen
20:26:33 <olsner> sure, you have to do that anyway for multi-touch
20:26:37 <elliott> oerjan: well http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Lead_section&oldid=449845029#Format_of_the_first_sentence does not have that wording
20:26:46 <elliott> so it is clearly a new addition
20:26:51 <Vorpal> olsner, what about multi touch keyboard input?
20:27:13 <Vorpal> not sure, it sounds awesome though
20:27:41 <Vorpal> hey you know what, a Datahand hooked up to your phone, that would be ergonomic
20:28:03 <oklopol> let me just test something
20:28:18 <fizzie> zzo38: I *think* that they give the cutoff/resonance values for (0..127, and then one bit designates if it's used or not; maybe modplug code can make this clear?) and then (if enabled) the filter gets applied to the output of a channel when notes of the corresponding instrument are played on it.
20:28:33 <fizzie> (But I'm certainly not sure.)
20:28:58 <fizzie> The version of mikmod I have here just ignores them. The filters are kind of a late addition.
20:30:40 <fizzie> One-handed operation is I think a frequently considered use case when it comes to smartphone UI design. (It's probably best not to ponder what the other hand is doing.)
20:31:00 <Vorpal> olsner, anyway the solution is obvious. Make the keyboard just take up like the left or right half of the screen
20:31:06 <Vorpal> rather than the full width
20:31:11 <olsner> anyway, with a small screen you can use one hand for everything that only relies on single touches... with a big screen you either need to contort your hand to reach or you need to switch grip entirely and use both hands
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20:32:12 <olsner> it's not just typing (besides, that's ridiculously painful regardless), but e.g. dragging down the notification bar requires reaching the very top of the screen
20:32:21 <olsner> and there may be other interactible elements there too
20:32:57 <fizzie> I'm a bit disappointed that the iPod doesn't do sidetalking. It would be the absolute best, with a device of that size.
20:33:06 <Vorpal> olsner, true, just tilt the screen and it is way closer XD
20:33:27 <elliott> oerjan: you have my blessing to rever tthat bolding anyway
20:34:06 <olsner> someone should make a banana-shaped phone where everything is within thumb reach
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20:34:16 <fizzie> Also yesterday I witnessed a credit card payment made by sticking a credit card into a small square box stuck at the bottom of an iPod, and then "signing" the receipt by finger-writing on the screen.
20:35:07 <oerjan> elliott: there seems to be a lot of discussion about this stuff in recent talk page archives
20:35:43 <elliott> well, the bold is ugly, at least :P
20:36:10 <pikhq> fizzie: That's like two year old tech. :)
20:36:15 <oerjan> there is also a mention of a specific rule not to bold text with links in :P
20:36:21 <pikhq> Also, you'd be kinda amused how that works.
20:36:26 <fizzie> It was done with http://www.izettle.com/ who reportedly have a kinda funky business model; they give out the card reader for free, and don't have any monthly contract subscription prices; they just take a cut (1%? 2%?) of the transaction. It's designed for very low-volume users.
20:36:55 <pikhq> The square box is a magnet read head wired to the audio in jack.
20:37:30 <fizzie> They're a "social payments company".
20:37:58 <Vorpal> why doesn't it simply use the code?
20:38:03 <quintopia> !bfjoust brachiation >->(-)*5(>)*4(>[(<)*3(+)*16<<(+[<{}])%28>(-)*50<(-)*50>(>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*15[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](+)*50)*3 (>-[(+)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*15[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](-)*50)*24 ]++)*25
20:38:05 <fizzie> Anyway, it talks to the chip so it's not a magnet-stripe reader.
20:38:08 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_brachiation: 36.7
20:38:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, is the magnet stripe still used?
20:38:29 <pikhq> You weird Europeans, with your smart cards in the chip.
20:38:33 <Vorpal> iirc it isn't in Sweden
20:38:37 <pikhq> Erm, chips in the card.
20:38:49 <fizzie> I don't really know why it doesn't do the PIN thing. Maybe it's explained on the page.
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20:38:56 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_nanopoke: 0.0
20:39:04 <pikhq> In the US, bank cards generally *only* have magnetic stripes.
20:39:27 <pikhq> Because upgrading infrastructure is for squares.
20:39:44 <Vorpal> pikhq, hey in Sweden if there is any fraud related to a card reader in a shop using the magnet strip rather than the chip they bear the full financial responsibility for it
20:39:57 <Vorpal> after they made that change everyone switched very quickly
20:40:58 <pikhq> Vorpal: Doesn't do you any good if nobody *has* cards with chips.
20:41:08 <Vorpal> pikhq, well everyone does over here
20:41:20 <Vorpal> pikhq, haven't seen one without a chip for over 15 years by now
20:41:27 <Vorpal> I remember them from when I was like 5 years old
20:41:32 <fizzie> It used to be so that you could read the mag-stripe info out of the chip without knowing the PIN, and then use that to print a stripe-only clone card and (ab)use it elsewhere. That I think got some sort of a fix already, though.
20:41:54 <Lumpio-> A magnetic strip is completely passive
20:42:07 <pikhq> Of course, rolling those out would probably screw up the tactic of literally mailing credit cards to people that you only need to call to activate.
20:42:09 <Vorpal> I think the keys should be on the card itself
20:42:11 <Lumpio-> If you create a copy of it, and the machine only reads the strip, it shouldn't be able to tell the difference
20:42:17 <Vorpal> and display of the sum
20:42:27 <Vorpal> that way you could completely prevent fraud
20:42:34 <Vorpal> can't see how you could do that otherwise
20:42:41 <elliott> Vorpal: cards should clearly have a private key on them
20:42:46 <Lumpio-> Somebody already made cards with build-in displays and keypads
20:42:51 <Lumpio-> They're not widely used yet though.
20:42:52 <Vorpal> <pikhq> Of course, rolling those out would probably screw up the tactic of literally mailing credit cards to people that you only need to call to activate. <-- huh what?
20:42:55 <elliott> and produce pgp-signed digital cheques
20:42:59 <elliott> actually that sounds like a good idea
20:43:05 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed, that would work
20:43:06 <fizzie> Lumpio-: Yes, but they fixed the part where you can ask the chip for the mag-stripe data without the PIN, so it can't get cloned just by sticking the chip part somewhere.
20:43:13 <Lumpio-> Cheques? I haven't seen one of those in... actually I've never seen one being used in a normal transaction
20:43:16 <Vorpal> elliott, then your bank could verify that
20:43:24 <pikhq> Vorpal: You get mailed credit cards in your junk mail. Call to activate. I shit you not.
20:43:37 <Vorpal> pikhq, US. You shit the rest of the world
20:43:41 <elliott> Lumpio-: well a "digital cheque" is just a cryptographically signed message containing a number :P
20:43:43 <Lumpio-> fizzie: What if you read the mag-stripe part off the stripe
20:43:53 <Lumpio-> elliott: It's still a foreign word to me.
20:43:59 <pikhq> Lumpio-: They're *rare*, but certainly in use in the US.
20:44:09 <elliott> bonus is that people would get phone attachments that let them plug into digital cheque acceptors and then people will steal phones for the cash
20:44:24 <Vorpal> I seen cheques being used
20:44:26 <elliott> because of course nobody will think to require putting a password on the private key
20:44:36 <elliott> they'll add a "remember password" button
20:44:42 <pikhq> You're either using it to pay an individual or really small entity without a card reader, or because you're really old.
20:45:00 <pikhq> Or to mail money, I guess.
20:45:03 <Lumpio-> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgDWMh2D0b8 the video is a bit dumbed-down but something like this
20:45:21 <fizzie> Lumpio-: Then you can obviously copy it. But this was in context of non-noticeable card-cloning dealies on top of an ATM, where you can't just tell people to swipe the card instead.
20:45:22 <Lumpio-> It doesn't verify the sum though.
20:45:32 <Vorpal> pikhq, yeah I had cheques mailed to me by an elderly aunt for birthdays
20:45:33 <elliott> anyway the design of credit cards are stupid as hell, what else is new
20:45:54 <Lumpio-> Well, like everything that was made before fast ubiquitous interwebs
20:45:59 <Vorpal> pikhq, only a couple of years ago she started just going to the bank office and doing the transaction directly
20:46:06 <quintopia> !bfjoust brachiation >->(-)*5(>)*4(>[(<)*3(+)*16<<(+[<{}])%28>(-)*50<(-)*50>(>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*15[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](+)*50)*3 (>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*15[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](-)*50)*24 ]++)*25
20:46:09 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_brachiation: 37.6
20:46:14 <pikhq> Vorpal: Which is really insanely hard to do in the US for some reason.
20:46:18 <Lumpio-> In its plainest form, no authentication built-in whatsoever
20:46:30 <Vorpal> pikhq, going to the bank office?
20:46:36 <pikhq> Vorpal: Depositing into someone else's account.
20:46:38 <Vorpal> she doesn't have internet afaik
20:46:45 <Vorpal> pikhq, how/why is it hard?
20:46:49 <pikhq> Lumpio-: I don't know!
20:47:01 <Vorpal> pikhq, how is it hard?
20:47:10 <Vorpal> I can easily do that from my internet bank
20:47:11 <quintopia> pikhq: transfers to other accounts arent that hard?
20:47:18 <Lumpio-> Here you just go to your bank's website, enter their account number (it also identifies the country and bank these days), a sum and click "ok"
20:47:36 <Lumpio-> ...you can also do it by filling in a form and leaving it at the bank physically if you're a computer-challenged person
20:47:47 <Vorpal> Lumpio-, and then you get a challenge code that you enter on your hard certificate device and you enter the reply code on the bank website
20:47:52 <Vorpal> don't forget that step
20:47:56 <Vorpal> it is a card reader thingy
20:48:04 <Lumpio-> Our "hard certificate device" is a one-time pad of numbers
20:48:08 <Vorpal> (the hard certificate, so you put your bank card in it)
20:48:13 <Vorpal> (and use your PIN code)
20:48:18 <Vorpal> Lumpio-, we get ours from the bank too
20:48:26 <Lumpio-> At any rate that isn't hard either.
20:48:33 <Lumpio-> Yeah but here they're like
20:48:34 <Vorpal> it is just that it is a card reader and works by challenge-response
20:48:51 <Vorpal> Lumpio-, that sounds stupid. Someone could just steal that pad
20:49:07 <Vorpal> where in my case they would need to steal my bank card and my PIN
20:49:09 <Lumpio-> Which is why having a PIN authenticator would be neat but I don't think they do that yet.
20:49:23 <Lumpio-> ...they'd also need your password though
20:49:31 <Lumpio-> Which you're supposed to memorize (but I bet most people just write it on the pad)
20:49:51 <Vorpal> Lumpio-, here it all works by the challenge-response thingy. Even login.
20:50:03 <Vorpal> I think they could add a password as well, that would be good
20:50:24 <Lumpio-> The more passwords you have the more likely are people to write them down
20:50:58 <Vorpal> also the challenge response code is like 10 digits iirc?
20:51:16 <fizzie> Vorpal: Okay, iZettle uses chip-and-sign because PCI only certifies separate chip-and-pin terminal devices with their own PIN entry keypads, and certainly won't appreciate iPad apps.
20:51:30 <Lumpio-> Most cards lock out after 3 incorrect tries don't they
20:51:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, PCI? As in the PCI bus?
20:51:48 <Lumpio-> 1/3333 chance of getting it right (actually it's higher since they won't let you use some PINs like 1111)
20:52:21 <Vorpal> Lumpio-, my bank doesn't let me change PIN. Good idea really
20:52:29 <Vorpal> so you have to learn whatever PIN they give your card
20:52:33 <pikhq> quintopia: Wire transfers cost money, and going through ACH allows the recepient to withdraw from your account.
20:53:13 <Lumpio-> Wut, draw from your account?
20:53:18 <fizzie> Vorpal: As in the Payment Card Industry Security Standards Council who defined PCI-DSS.
20:53:19 <Lumpio-> I dunno if that's even possible here
20:53:22 <quintopia> i'm assuming we're talking about accounts at the same bank, yes?
20:53:30 <pikhq> "Automated Clearing House"... An electronic payment thing that's basically designed only around bill payments and payroll.
20:53:38 <Lumpio-> There used to be a system that big companies could use called "direct charge" or something where they could take money from you but
20:53:52 <Lumpio-> I think it got replaced by an "e-bill" system where you need to authorize them
20:54:08 <pikhq> Lumpio-: We would be on the "direct charge" system.
20:54:32 <pikhq> With wire transfers being little-used because a bank will charge like $20 just to do them.
20:54:43 <Lumpio-> When you use e-bills (pretty much everybody supports them nowadays) you get them in your inbox online and you can view them and pay them with one click
20:54:52 <Vorpal> pikhq, why do they do that? And what is a wire transfer?
20:54:59 <Lumpio-> Plus the best part is that you can also set an automatic payment limit
20:55:08 <Lumpio-> Like "automatically pay bills from company X up to Y EUR/month"
20:55:16 <Lumpio-> Which is great because otherwise I'd never remember to pay my bills.
20:55:30 <Lumpio-> "Wire transfer" is what I always hear in American TV shows
20:55:44 <Lumpio-> Probably some kind of ancient and overly complicated method of transferring money from one account to another
20:55:45 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's a bit of a silliness because reseach folk have hacked open all manner of PCI-certified POS terminals, so it's certainly not "safe" to stick in your card in any hole anyway.
20:55:46 <pikhq> Vorpal: A wire transfer is a means of transmitting money that dates back to the telegram.
20:56:14 <pikhq> Because, again, fuck upgrading infrastructure.
20:56:31 <Lumpio-> Fuck anything besides COBOL and PDP-11
20:56:46 <Lumpio-> It worked for our ancestors, why wouldn't it work for us!
20:57:17 <elliott> fizzie: That's not the only thing it's not safe to stick in holes in the wall!!!!
20:57:44 <pikhq> So, yeah. Cash, checks, and magnetic stripe cards are the only usable things.
20:57:57 <Vorpal> pikhq, how does it work then?
20:58:24 <Lumpio-> I think there's exactly one chain of stores left that doesn't take chip cards
20:58:40 <pikhq> I don't know the details.
20:58:44 <Lumpio-> Or well doesn't use the chip
20:58:49 <fizzie> Lumpio-: The "direct charge" thing won't be totally dismantled until 2014, but it's certainly quite deprecated by now.
20:58:50 <Lumpio-> Not that there are any cards without chips left
21:00:13 <fizzie> The rent for the student housing at the university used to use that scheme. I don't know if they're e-billing people yet.
21:00:51 <Lumpio-> Or well pre-filled bank transfer sheets
21:01:05 <Lumpio-> Which is a waste of paper because they're just the same information over and over with a different date
21:02:21 <pikhq> On a slightly unrelated note, it can be quite "delightful" dealing with bureaucracies here.
21:02:36 <pikhq> Like, who the hell actually expects a fax these days? Apparently bureaucracy.
21:03:00 <Vorpal> fizzie, what is direct charge?
21:03:06 <pikhq> A friggin' fax machine!
21:03:35 <Vorpal> I thought that was like the bank being set up to send a monthly transfer somewhere or such
21:03:45 <Lumpio-> I've never touched a fax machine
21:03:52 <fizzie> Our... uh, I don't know the word. The money that goes to the pseudo-company running this apartment building? Anyway, that, goes so that they mail one paper bill with rows for 12 months, each with a checkbox, and then if you want you can tick each box after you've paid it. (I just set up a monthly repeated payment.)
21:03:57 <Lumpio-> Although I hear they still use them to send signed contracts or whatever around
21:04:05 <Lumpio-> Because it's apparently more "trustworthy" than e-mail
21:04:19 <Lumpio-> Which only goes to further prove that old people only find old things trustworthy.
21:05:01 <elliott> Well, email is not very trustworthy.
21:05:13 <Lumpio-> Are faxes any more trustworthy
21:05:25 <pikhq> elliott: Fax is a photosensor, an ADC, and a modem.
21:05:25 <elliott> They go through a lot less stuff, don't they?
21:05:36 <Lumpio-> If we're talking about somebody who's willing to go as far as forge contracts or whatnot
21:05:46 <pikhq> elliott: They mean "trustworthy" in the sense of forgery.
21:05:58 <elliott> pikhq: Right, so the question is one of interception, right?
21:06:18 <fizzie> They're very trustworthy. There was that story about a prison "escape" that happened by the prisoner's friend sending a "hey, release the guy" fax from the local copy shop.
21:06:40 <pikhq> Not... Really. The question is one of sending utterly bogus stuff.
21:06:53 <pikhq> The assumption for some reason is "if it's a fax, it's real"
21:06:56 <fizzie> IEEE wanted me to fax them a signed copyright-contract form for a conference once.
21:08:04 <pikhq> We're talking people who probably think that they actually get offers on dick elongation that can *actually do that*.
21:08:32 <fizzie> I vaguely recall they had some alternative to faxing, though. But maybe it was just snailmailing it.
21:09:25 <Lumpio-> Old people trust faxes because they're easy to understand!
21:09:29 <fizzie> "Send the signed Copyright Transfer form by October 15, 2008 (HARD DEADLINE!), to the conference secretariat by fax or scanned email"
21:09:30 <Lumpio-> I mean c'mon it's like dialing the phone!
21:09:44 <Lumpio-> None of them new-fangled internets or e-mails
21:09:49 <fizzie> Oh, they don't mind a scan-and-email, at least at this conference.
21:10:16 <fizzie> "Remember that your paper cannot be included in the conference proceedings without the signed IEEE Copyright Transfer form. Electronic signatures will not be accepted.
21:10:19 <fizzie> Due to new IEEE regulations, the author who signed the copyright transfer form or the presenter will be required to resign this form at the conference because the original handwritten signature must be filed with the IEEE Headquarters."
21:11:01 <fizzie> It's not exactly clear how they're going to tell whether I've pasted the signature in rather than signing and scanning it.
21:12:57 <pikhq> Pasting the signature in is "impossible", they think.
21:13:08 <pikhq> If you tell them you did that, they will think you are a wizard to rival Merlin.
21:15:54 <fizzie> I think I mentioned this before, but recently I had to pay a travel agency some money, and they solved the "email is not encrypted so it can't be used to send credit card info" by requesting the card number and the CVV number in two separate emails. Because, you know, how would someone catch *both*?
21:16:31 <fizzie> (I think a phone call was an option for the CVV, though.)
21:16:33 <pikhq> Gotta love people having no clue how any of this stuff works.
21:16:34 <Lumpio-> We've had people send over stuff partially as SMS and partially via e-mail
21:16:41 <olsner> besides, even if they did catch both mails, they have no way of knowing which mail is the card number and which is the CVV
21:17:11 <pikhq> olsner: strlen will handle that. :)
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21:31:56 <Vorpal> what /IS/ the CVV actually? As in, how does it work. I know it is the 3 digits on the back thingy but apart from that? No clue
21:34:48 <Vorpal> pikhq, btw you americans without chips in your cards would run into issues if you visited Sweden. Usually the magnetic stripe thingy is taped over these days
21:34:58 <Vorpal> so people don't use it instead of the chip
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21:41:55 <fizzie> The code is just additional numbers (that are not on the magnetic strip) that are sometimes (often?) required when doing a "card not present" transaction, i.e. the merchant is not actually given the card, just its details over the phone/internet/whatever.
21:42:22 <Vorpal> yeah I think I only ever used it with paypal?
21:42:55 <Vorpal> verified by visa stuff doesn't use it. It uses my card reader instead
21:43:04 <fizzie> The idea being that if you stick a card-skimmer over an ATM card slot, it can't copy that number, so you'll actually need to be physically present when using the cloned card, so it's easier to get caught.
21:43:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, if it isn't on the strip then how can it not be possible to just copy the data on the strip?
21:44:06 <Vorpal> why can't you just copy the data on the strip
21:44:11 <Vorpal> why would you need the CSC
21:44:22 <fizzie> Sure you can, but the code is not on it.
21:44:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, but the CSC is not needed when paying in a shop anyway. You just need the copy the card data and presumably the PIN
21:45:04 <Vorpal> you can use a card skimmer and an add-on keypad on top of the original one
21:45:06 <fizzie> I *just* mentioned this.
21:45:07 <Vorpal> what more would you need
21:45:23 <Vorpal> there is no more data that you need as far as I can see
21:45:31 <fizzie> You can't use the copied card over the internet/phone/whatever, is the point.
21:45:43 <fizzie> Because the merchant would require the code.
21:45:45 <Vorpal> but you could use it in a normal shop just fine
21:45:55 <fizzie> Sure, and get caught just fine too.
21:46:11 <fizzie> Since you need to be there in the shop with the card.
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21:46:23 <Vorpal> hm, who said you would get caught? You wouldn't use it more than a couple of times the same day
21:46:51 <fizzie> Yes, well, it's obviously an imperfect security measure. The point still remains.
21:50:35 <fizzie> Most of the credit card misuse strategies are based on ordering stuff online (to other people, who then pay you via Western Union or whatever), anyway, and it'll at least attempt to block those. (Well, I suppose whoever copied the card is most likely to sell the details forward, but anyway at some point someone's going to have to use it.)
21:52:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, why western union?
21:52:37 <fizzie> Because from what I know it's not very traceable.
21:54:04 <pikhq> Vorpal: Yes, well, we'd have trouble *anyways*.
21:54:07 <fizzie> "Western Union advises its customers not to send money to someone that they have never met in person. Despite its efforts in increasing customers' awareness of the issue,[17] Western Union is used for internet fraud by scammers.[18]"
21:54:33 <pikhq> Vorpal: Some banks like to charge for international use.
21:54:43 <Lumpio-> Meeting in person is overrated
21:54:49 <pikhq> Others will disable your card, under the assumption that it's fraud.
21:55:03 <Vorpal> banks liking to charge is no news
21:55:25 <Vorpal> pikhq, so you mean that they disable your card if you are on holidays in a different country?
21:55:48 <fizzie> Apparently eBay have banned it. (Though I'm sure you can still find eBay people willing to pay with it, especially since they'll be getting the merchandise before paying, so it all seems quite legit.)
21:56:01 <pikhq> Unless you go out of your way to tell them "I will be out of the country".
21:56:20 <Vorpal> I guess I best watch out for that in the future
21:56:41 <pikhq> It also sucks heavily if you want to use a cell phone abroad.
21:57:03 <pikhq> I swear, the data plans are from the 90s.
21:57:08 <pikhq> Charge per *megabyte*?
21:57:14 <fizzie> Banks around here also disable cards if they're used in a physically unlikely way; say, in country A, then five minutes later in country B, then again 15 minutes later in country A. (With A and B being non-neighbours.)
21:57:38 <fizzie> Well, roaming data isn't really any better in Europe, I don't think.
21:57:38 <Vorpal> pikhq, roaming rates are absurd
21:57:52 <pikhq> You also get absurd charges for international voice...
21:58:02 <pikhq> And all this assumes you have a phone that functions internationally.
21:58:17 <pikhq> The North American GSM frequencies are different from the rest of the world.
21:58:24 <fizzie> They have some EU-wide maximum-charge limit nowadays, for data and SMS and I think voice too. But the limits are quite high.
21:58:35 <Vorpal> pikhq, I saw an ad recently for an international mobile pay plan. With a cost of 137 SEK / day. At least it was per day but that cost is more than what I pay per *month* for my plan
21:58:37 <fizzie> The data part is IIRC pretty new.
21:58:56 <pikhq> That's friggin' charging just to charge.
21:59:02 <Vorpal> 137 SEK is $19.71 apperently
21:59:18 <Vorpal> pikhq, anyway that was like the max cost per day when roaming
21:59:22 <pikhq> Wait, you pay $19.71 per month? Lucky bastards.
21:59:25 <Vorpal> it just seemed absurd to me
21:59:38 <Vorpal> pikhq, no I pay $14.24
21:59:48 <Vorpal> I wouldn't pay a bloody $19.71
21:59:56 <Vorpal> that is just stupidly much
22:00:11 <pikhq> Vorpal: US cell plans start at $39.99/mo.
22:00:36 <pikhq> Or 10¢/min. if you go with a prepaid phone.
22:00:40 <Vorpal> pikhq, my plan is a student one though. IIRC it costs like 150 normally ($21)
22:01:04 <Vorpal> pikhq, anyway it is heavy on data but not on calls
22:01:07 <pikhq> (benefit of a prepaid phone being that that minutely charge is the only charge at all, so if you don't call much, well.)
22:01:26 <Vorpal> I get a LOT of data (and even when I reach the limit of 4 GB / month it just slows down, it doesn't cost me more)
22:01:33 <fizzie> I pay $12.51/mon, but it's speed-limited to something rather slow; it's an old deal, and I haven't changed because it comes with a "slave SIM" thing and a USB 3G stick, so I can have both the phone and the laptop interwebbed simultaneously. Not that I ever really use that, but the idea is nice.
22:01:36 <Vorpal> and I get 5000 SMS / month (as if I would ever reach that)
22:01:37 <pikhq> Vorpal: That's a plan *without* data.
22:01:44 <Vorpal> but voice calls cost a bit more
22:01:57 <Vorpal> when I got the plan I didn't do many voice calls though
22:02:35 <Vorpal> nowdays I do that more, if it keeps at the current level (more than usual currently, since I'm looking for a job), I might change plan
22:02:40 <Vorpal> so I get cheaper voice calls
22:02:47 <pikhq> Data starts at an additional $15/mo.
22:03:07 <Vorpal> pikhq, because in practise it ends up at more than 99 SEK / month due to the voice calls currently. Last month was 127 SEK iirc
22:03:10 <pikhq> (all rates from AT&T)
22:03:21 <Vorpal> that is a whopping $18.27
22:03:53 <pikhq> Vorpal: Or $3.27 more than 250MB of data on *top* of a cell plan in the US.
22:04:09 <Vorpal> pikhq, anyway the point here was that 137 SEK / day was advertised as a roaming cost. And that is $19.71 / day roaming
22:04:24 <Vorpal> if that is advertised as especially low roaming cost
22:04:32 <Vorpal> then I don't want to know what the usual cost is
22:05:08 <Vorpal> but yeah roaming needs to be cheaper
22:05:10 <pikhq> I'm just amazed you can have such a god-damned low rate.
22:05:25 <Vorpal> pikhq, remember it is a student plan though
22:05:42 <pikhq> Vorpal: Yes, and the normal rate is still half a normal US rate.
22:05:55 <Vorpal> pikhq, and there are no included voice minutes in it
22:06:03 <Vorpal> a lot of SMS and data though
22:06:10 <pikhq> Vorpal: And there are no data or SMS included in that rate.
22:06:59 <Vorpal> pikhq, and iirc very cheap call to anyone else with Telia. Only issue, no one that I know currently use Telia. My dad used to, but he switched to Telenor years ago, and a couple of months ago he switched to Tele2
22:07:16 <Vorpal> so pretty useless that cheap call for me
22:07:58 <Vorpal> pikhq, I'm getting a new phone soon btw. Going for a Samsung Galaxy S3
22:08:27 <Vorpal> so I need to order a MicroSIM as well. I have MiniSIM currently. All very amusing since the new phone will be larger than my current one.
22:08:45 <Vorpal> I'm of course going to buy the phone separately from my plan
22:08:56 <Vorpal> only idiots would buy the phone with the plan IMO
22:09:00 <fizzie> Apparently the maximum roaming data rate in EU is 0.50 EUR/megabyte. (But that's a price ceiling on how much the roaming network operator can charge from the customer's home operator, so it's not directly a ceiling on how much the end-user must pay.)
22:09:26 <Vorpal> that is still quite a lot
22:09:59 <fizzie> Sure, but at least there's a ceiling. Some of the per-megabyte prices were really something else, before.
22:10:35 <Vorpal> I don't get why they would do that
22:10:43 <Vorpal> the roaming *call* costs are absurd as well
22:10:43 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:10:52 <fizzie> Because they like to get money?
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22:11:03 <Vorpal> it would be cheaper getting a pre-paid card in the country you are visiting
22:11:27 <oerjan_> hm so that's why it went silent
22:11:31 <fizzie> People do do that. Especially now that you can sometimes find sensible pre-paid data.
22:11:35 <Vorpal> pre-paid with data can be quite cheap here
22:12:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, I used to have pre-paid with data. IIRC it was max 9 SEK per day for data.
22:12:04 <Vorpal> or something like that
22:12:31 <fizzie> Anyway, I had this UDP-based "I send this packet and it resends the contents as email to all our relatives" setup for one trip. Even with the silly per-megabyte price, they charged at 50kiB granularity, and the price for one connect+send+disconnect was less than a single SMS.
22:12:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, did they round up or down?
22:13:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, so you wrote a software for that or you used an existing one?
22:13:27 <fizzie> But it was still just one unit per message, IIRC.
22:14:02 <fizzie> It was a Perl script at the server end, and J2ME locally, I think. The phone I was using at the time wasn't very smart.
22:14:21 <fizzie> Haven't seen existing software for that.
22:14:22 <pikhq> fizzie: Aaaah, stupid charging.
22:14:46 <pikhq> A charge for SMS is overcharging.
22:15:15 <Vorpal> also stupid frequency issues when you visit different parts of the world
22:15:24 <Vorpal> sometimes the frequency bands are completely different
22:15:30 <Vorpal> and the phone doesn't work anyway
22:15:39 <fizzie> 0.1342 EUR/SMS is the corresponding EU region ceiling for that. But that's also a new thing.
22:16:09 <pikhq> fizzie: That's approx. 0.1342 EUR too many..;
22:16:17 -!- oerjan has quit (*.net *.split).
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22:16:19 <Vorpal> 1.188 SEK? That is an absurd cost
22:16:44 -!- oklopol has joined.
22:16:56 <oerjan_> huh 0.1342 eur is precisely 1 nok
22:16:57 <Vorpal> btw I wonder why my plan says 5000 free SMS / month, and iirc there is an upgrade option for even more
22:17:03 <Vorpal> who the hell is going to use that?
22:17:19 <Vorpal> I mean, 5000 SMS per month is A LOT
22:17:23 <fizzie> Vorpal: People do. The statistics are really crazy.
22:17:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, how could anyone type 5000 SMS in a month on a PHONE
22:17:37 <fizzie> Vorpal: Some average three-digit numbers daily.
22:17:42 <Vorpal> without breaking their fingers
22:18:07 <fizzie> They use it like IRC except pay per line. :p
22:18:09 <Vorpal> I think I average 150 / year r so
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22:18:43 <fizzie> The overall average for the 12-17 age group in the US seems to be 60/day.
22:19:19 <fizzie> Admittedly that's just 1800/month, but it's the average. Some go higher.
22:19:22 <Vorpal> according to my phone I sent a total of 712 SMS (it says 712/743, I think were long and thus split in two internally or something)
22:19:32 <Vorpal> and I don't think I ever reset that counter
22:19:40 <Vorpal> so a bit more than 150 / year
22:19:50 <fizzie> Average for 14-17 seems to be about 100/day.
22:20:05 <Vorpal> still I had it for like 6 years or so by now
22:20:22 <pikhq> So. 140 bytes per SMS.
22:20:44 <pikhq> 5000 free SMS -> 683 free kilobytes.
22:20:51 <Vorpal> also I'm a net-importer of SMS: 737/760 is the received SMS count
22:21:37 <fizzie> Overall average in Finland is 3/day, apparently, but it would make more sense to compare the same age group; I just don't have that number on this Google results page.
22:21:43 <Vorpal> pikhq, well you get 2 GB free data before it slows down to like 80 kb/s (instead of 6 MB/s or whatever it is supposed to be, my phone is slower than that anyway)
22:22:19 <pikhq> Also, that roaming rate is... 0.9815EUR / kilobyte.
22:22:50 <Vorpal> pikhq, so more than the per mb then?
22:23:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, definitely way less than 1 / day for me. However I do tend to go weeks without a single SMS and then send like three on the same day
22:23:41 <fizzie> I average about three per month, I think.
22:23:54 <Vorpal> we are a different generation I guess
22:24:15 <Vorpal> we should ask elliott how many he sends
22:24:26 <Vorpal> elliott, hey! How many SMS do you write per day approximately?
22:24:55 <shachaf> Let me check how many I send per day.
22:25:02 <shachaf> Hmm, it says "like a billion".
22:25:34 <fizzie> But he's not in US. We'd need a 14-to-17-year-old from the US, to verify that 100/day figure.
22:27:03 <Vorpal> elliott, how many per year?
22:27:27 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, how many SMS do you send per day (or another suitable time unit if the answer would be <1)
22:28:31 <elliott> monqy ages 1 year per year
22:28:43 <elliott> Vorpal: i have sent 0 smses in 2012
22:30:43 <Vorpal> fizzie, what about MMS?
22:30:52 <Vorpal> I once received an MMS
22:31:01 <Vorpal> and my phone didn't support it
22:31:06 <Vorpal> so I have no idea what it was
22:31:33 <Vorpal> I asked the guy who sent it and he had no clue he had done that. So probably it was a misclick or something
22:31:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, so yeah, any MMS figures?
22:32:32 <fizzie> I've received three, but they come in as a SMS with a link to the operator's website where I can look at it, because I don't have the "can receive MMS" flag turned on at the operator. (It's turned on if you ever send one, or you can toggle it on manually from their settings page.)
22:33:04 <Vorpal> according to wikipedia the most active country in Europe for MMS is Norway
22:33:19 <fizzie> I can recall the contents of only two, but I think there was a third.
22:34:39 <Phantom_Hoover> <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, how many SMS do you send per day (or another suitable time unit if the answer would be <1)
22:36:55 <fizzie> I've sent *two* yesterday. My quota for the month is almost up, it seems. (Though I sent 0 in May, so maybe it balances out.)
22:37:24 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: So less than 32?
22:37:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what about MMS? You ever received or sent any?
22:38:45 <Phantom_Hoover> *Maybe* a few more, but we're talking the better part of a decade ago for that.
22:39:17 <fizzie> Funnily enough, the VDSL2 at home comes with some (10/month or so?) free SMSes. You send them from the ISP's "account settings" web thing. (They're also a cellphone operator. But it's still kinda weird.)
22:39:36 <Vorpal> and the low limit is even more weird
22:39:37 <oerjan> Vorpal: my phone _still_ doesn't support MMS :P
22:39:48 <Vorpal> oerjan, still? Have I asked you before?
22:40:27 <Vorpal> oerjan, how many SMS do you send per day (or other more suitable time unit if answer is <1)
22:40:37 <fizzie> Vorpal: You can buy more, I think. But it's not a very advertised service, don't know if anyone really uses it. (I suspect a bored programmer implemented it.)
22:41:36 <Vorpal> btw how does the thing where you send an SMS to a specific number (usually a normally non-valid one) and get configuration data for data or mms back work?
22:41:47 <Vorpal> usually the phone somehow just interprets that directly
22:41:55 <oerjan> Vorpal: lessee, i cannot quite recall how many months since my last one.
22:43:19 <Vorpal> I just realised that the SMS message length and the twitter message length is the same. I wonder if that is a co-incidence.
22:43:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, 140 in both cases?
22:43:45 <fizzie> 160 characters for SMS.
22:43:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, not according to wikipedia
22:44:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, so how many bits per char?
22:44:26 <Vorpal> err I used unicode in SMS
22:44:31 <Vorpal> and it worked just fine
22:44:42 <fizzie> It eats multiple characters, too.
22:45:15 <fizzie> If you have a character counter it should jump if you put special-enough characters in.
22:45:28 <pikhq> Apparently it's either the GSM 7-bit encoding, straight octets, or UTF-16.
22:45:45 <Vorpal> pikhq, hm wikipedia claims UCS2
22:45:58 <pikhq> Ugh, that's even more moronic.
22:46:18 <Vorpal> hm my phone says 1000/1
22:46:23 <Vorpal> that is a strange count
22:46:51 <fizzie> It is, because that's not the maximum limit for concatenated messages, I don't think.
22:47:05 <fizzie> The "1" is probably the number of messages.
22:47:36 <fizzie> I seem to recall there was some even stranger escape mechanism when sending a message with the 7-bit alphabet and just having individual special characters.
22:48:07 <Vorpal> also mashing the 1 gives me a smiley (T9 word thingy)
22:48:30 <Vorpal> it supports up to 8 concatenated :-) before it gives me a question mark that the word is unknown
22:49:08 <fizzie> "Note that on many GSM smartphones, there's no specific preselection of the UCS-2 encoding. The default is to use the 7-bit encoding above, until one enters a character that is not present in the GSM 7-bit table (for example the lowercase c with cedilla 'ç'). In that case, the whole message gets reencoded using the UCS-2 encoding, and the maximum length of the message sent in only 1 SMS is ...
22:49:15 <fizzie> ... immediately reduced to 70 code units, instead of 160."
22:49:16 <fizzie> Maybe no escaping, then.
22:49:26 <Vorpal> so it goes like this on the screen: :-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):)?
22:49:33 <Vorpal> (with that underline yes)
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22:50:22 <fizzie> Oh, yes, there's this thing.
22:50:45 <fizzie> "Since release 8 of the GSM 23.038 standard, additional characters sets can be accessed through the use of a National Language Shift Table.
22:50:48 <fizzie> These tables allow the use of different character sets according to the language the text is going to be written. The choice of table for a given message is selected in the User Data Header section of an SMS message and can be specified for the whole text (a Locking shift table) or a single character (Single shift table).
22:50:50 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm just amused it supports concatenated smilies!
22:50:54 <fizzie> Using a shift table, a message can still use 7-bit encoding for the characters, but a different set can be chosen to correctly show accented and language specific characters. This allows up to 155 characters, encoded in 136 octets (140 octets, minus the 4-octets of User Data Header required to indicate the use of a shift table and the language code)."
22:51:16 <fizzie> I think that's what many phones do if you stick in some special-but-not-too-special character.
22:51:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, like åäö or such?
22:52:15 <pikhq> fizzie: What a "pleasant" hack to deal with how phone companies seem to feel that half a floppy disk per month is a reasonable allocation.
22:52:22 <Vorpal> Lumpio-, what? It makes perfect sense. You just need to hit the key on the keypad once per char
22:52:36 <Lumpio-> I just never liked it .__.
22:52:43 <Lumpio-> So I learned to type decently fast on the keypad
22:52:52 <Vorpal> Lumpio-, next you will say you hate swype on smartphones?
22:52:54 <Lumpio-> I think I might've averaged at least over 150cpm
22:53:04 <Lumpio-> Vorpal: I hate typing on touchscreens for one.
22:54:27 <Vorpal> so I was searching the wikipedia page about twitter for "140" to find the reason for that specific limit. Amusingly I hit that they had US$ 140 million revenue and over 140 million users instead
22:55:55 <fizzie> Vorpal: Actually åäö are part of the default 7-bit set. (It's not ASCII.) My counter jumps from 160 to 69 if I type a ‰, indicating UCS-2. Haven't found an in-between character yet. (It counts number of characters until the next message.)
22:56:11 <kmc> iirc it comes from the GSM SMS limit of 160 (7-bit) characters minus space for a username
22:56:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, hey "The messages were initially set to a 140 character limit for the compatibility with SMS messaging" according to wikipedia about twitter
22:56:21 <Vorpal> so yes they are related!
22:56:38 <fizzie> Maybe; it's not the same limit, though.
22:56:47 <kmc> yeah twitter was originally based on the idea of sending/receiving status updates by SMS
22:56:50 <pikhq> The Twitter limit is 140 UTF-8-encoded integers.
22:57:18 <fizzie> There's also some random uppercase Greek in the 7-bit GSM.
22:58:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, you mean Cyrillic letters or ancient Greek letters?
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23:00:16 <fizzie> I mean Γ, Λ, Ω, Π, Ψ, Σ and few others. (Got tired copy-pasting from a table with this phone.)
23:02:03 <fizzie> SMS is weird, anyway. There's that "flash SMS" that used to show up in phones as an alert without "opening" the message. Optionally blinking. Technically a "class 0" message. No idea if that still works.
23:02:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, what are you talking about?
23:02:38 <fizzie> It could be used for pranking since it looked like an "official" message, not just something anyone could send.
23:02:47 <Vorpal> how would you send one?
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23:03:30 <fizzie> By fiddlery. At least computers with a GSM card could send them. IIRC some phones too, if you did the right magic.
23:03:37 <fizzie> http://www.dreamfabric.com/sms/alert.html has some details.
23:03:53 <Vorpal> aww, not easy to do then I guess
23:04:34 <fizzie> http://www.ehow.com/how_5202567_send-flash-sms.html
23:04:48 <kmc> pikhq: and it's the UCS version of UTF-8 at that, so you can encode codepoints outside the Unicode range
23:05:33 <fizzie> (I have no idea if that flash SMS buggery still works in today's phones.)
23:05:50 <Vorpal> "Type "0001" followed by the beginning of your text message. This is considered a "Class 0" message by most cell phones." <-- that are 4 bytes of letters?
23:06:04 <zzo38> What is a "Class 0" message?
23:06:37 <Vorpal> testing it to my own phone, not working as that ehow suggested it
23:06:52 <pikhq> kmc: That's what I was meaning to imply. :)
23:07:15 <Vorpal> <kmc> pikhq: and it's the UCS version of UTF-8 at that, so you can encode codepoints outside the Unicode range <-- what, really?
23:07:19 <kmc> Vorpal: modern greek also uses those letters...
23:07:33 <Vorpal> kmc, I thought they used Cyrillic?
23:07:37 <Vorpal> rather than µ and so on
23:07:53 <kmc> look it up =D
23:08:16 <kmc> it's pretty close to the ancient greek alphabet, fewer letters and diacritics aiui
23:08:46 <kmc> as i understand it
23:08:52 <fizzie> Vorpal: I would certainly think it should be a single U+0001 character, but the eHow makes it sound strange. Who knows. The SMS wiki-article mentions such a thing exists, but doesn't have any details.
23:09:02 <kmc> cyrillic alphabet is based on greek and looks a lot like greek too
23:09:12 <kmc> probably the eHow article is just wrong
23:10:06 <kmc> greek was written in boustrophedon order for a while!
23:10:12 <zzo38> The ASCII control code 0x01 is the "start of heading" code.
23:12:38 <kmc> left to right and right to left on alternating lines
23:12:46 <kmc> back and forth like an ox plowing a field
23:12:54 <elliott> kmc: have you ever seen an ox plow a field
23:13:20 <Vorpal> kmc, well it makes it easy to handle very long lines in a text without losing your position!
23:13:21 <kmc> must be strong like bull and smart like tractor
23:13:27 <Vorpal> but tricky to read still
23:13:39 <fizzie> Anyway, according to the http://www.dreamfabric.com/sms/alert.html table the main thing is to have the correct first ("TP-DCS") byte, which you obviously can't type in, and the U+0001 just makes for the blinking. So if the eHow ever worked, it must've relied on phones recognizing the 0001 and doing the magic.
23:13:57 <Vorpal> elliott, does it count if I saw it on a documentary?
23:17:54 <fizzie> http://mobiletidings.com/2009/02/12/sending-a-flash-sms-message/ (with a phone plugged to a computer in some way you can speak AT commands to it) sounds far more likely to work, assuming operators don't block/change the message class, and modern phones still do the UI difference.
23:18:29 <fizzie> (The example is not in UCS-2 mode though.)
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23:25:20 <zzo38> What values are the IFC and IFR fields supposed to hold in Impulse Tracker instruments? I can find nothing to say what value they should be set to and what they mean
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23:42:30 <fizzie> zzo38: Based on the few hints I've seen, I think they take a value 0..127, and then the most significant bit is set if the filter is enabled. So they can be 0..127 with no effect, and then 128..255 means the filter is on, i.e. enabled for a channel when the instrument is playing. And http://schismtracker.org/wiki/Resonant%20Filters kind-of documents how the 0..127 values get turned into filter ...
23:44:19 <fizzie> Well, that and/or the previous link.
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23:45:05 <fizzie> They're not very clear. But the modplug code is using the MSB as a flag whether to enable the filter.
23:45:56 <fizzie> (Some claim modplug gets the actual filtering wrong, so that's probably not useful to look at, but I think they would get the part about IFC/IFR right.)
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23:54:01 <fizzie> In the comments of the code of that schismtracker.org link, I believe "i" is 256*(IFC & 0x7f), and "d" (not same as the 'd' in the after-code text) is QualityFactorTable[IFR & 0x7f], but the earlier link (where that value is called 'p') gives an explicit formula instead of using the table: "p = 10^((-resonance*24.0)/(128.0f*20.0f))".
23:54:23 <fizzie> Where 'resonance' in that formula would again be IFR&0x7f.
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23:55:07 <fizzie> I haven't checked if it matches the table, except that it does when resonance == 0, and p == 1.0.
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23:58:11 <fizzie> It seems quite reasonable; the value 0.1 is (eyeball-measuring) about 20/24ths through the table, where it should be.
00:00:47 <fizzie> (Since 'resonance' i.e. the table ranges 0..127, so res/128 is about 0..1, and therefore at 20/24ths down the table you should get 10^(-(20/24)*(24/20)) = 10^-1.)
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00:08:46 <fizzie> Given how messy that code is, I'd probably start with just the rules in http://wiki.multimedia.cx/index.php?title=Impulse_Tracker#Resonant_filters after setting cutoff == IFC&0x7f and resonance == IFR&0x7f (and enabling the whole deal only if (IFC&0x80)||(IFR&0x80)). Or, well, in your case since you're not implementing it, you'd want to solve what you need IFC and IFR to be; that maybe needs ...
00:08:52 <fizzie> ... some thinking w.r.t. what sort of filter those rules implement. Though, honestly, this is such a corner-case feature, maybe you should just support it by letting the user define IFC and IFR as a value 0..127? I think that's what the real Impulse Tracker UI does, too.
00:10:12 <fizzie> It has a slider that is labeled 0..127, and then you can slide it past the 0 notch to "off", in which case the MSB will be clear.
00:10:29 <fizzie> (Disclaimer: I could be all wrong.)
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00:21:57 <kmc> facebook.com AAAA 2a03:2880:2110:3f01:face:b00c::
00:29:13 <zzo38> Should they just be left at zero for default, and then use 0x80-0xFF when a value is entered?
00:29:35 <zzo38> I could allow a value 0 to 127 to be entered, and add 128, and then use 0 if no value is entered at all
00:30:03 <Vorpal> kmc, poor google. If only it had been base 17 instead... Then they could have done g00g1e
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00:31:22 <kmc> iirc it violates the rules about mixing scripts :/
00:31:26 <Vorpal> kmc, "Firefox kan inte hitta servern på www.xn--ggle-bn7o.com."
00:31:36 <kmc> bork bork bork
00:31:46 <kmc> don't worry about it
00:31:48 <Vorpal> "Firefox can not find the server on www.xn--ggle-bn7o.com."
00:31:58 <kmc> i gathered as much
00:32:09 <Vorpal> kmc, NOW YOU KNOW SOME SWEDISH
00:33:07 <fizzie> zzo38: That sounds reasonable.
00:34:05 <Vorpal> zzo38, you could or 128 instead of adding it. Depending on the CPU that could theoretically be more optimal :P
00:34:21 <Vorpal> (no need for any carry
00:34:27 <fizzie> Vorpal: They could still go with '600613', but it's not quite so recognizable.
00:34:28 <kmc> "more optimal"
00:34:56 <kmc> least extremal
00:34:58 <Vorpal> kmc, well probably not in practise
00:35:17 <Vorpal> (I was not being serious, obviously)
00:35:22 <fizzie> I think it was a comment on wording, not content.
00:35:32 <kmc> "optimal" is an absolute
00:36:01 <Vorpal> due to carry forward and what not both operations probably execute in one cycle anyway
00:36:06 <shachaf> kmc: Did you understand what Vorpal meant? How do you think they should've phrased it?
00:36:16 <shachaf> I guess in this case "better" would work.
00:36:16 <kmc> i did understand
00:36:20 <kmc> i would say "better" or "faster"
00:36:23 <kmc> but it's not a serious complaint
00:36:33 <shachaf> Do you also complain about "more unique"?
00:36:53 <Vorpal> kmc, do you complain about people saying PIN number or CD Disc?
00:37:01 <kmc> i complain about the people who complain about that
00:37:04 <kmc> i hate them
00:37:10 <kmc> because acronyms are words
00:37:16 <kmc> the etymology of a word is not especially important to its usage
00:37:34 <kmc> furthermore in many cases if you drop the "redundant" word, you end up with an awkward sentence
00:37:40 <Vorpal> shachaf, shouldn't it be uniquer?
00:37:53 <kmc> i take joy in ignoring arbitrary rules which only make language worse
00:37:53 <Vorpal> shachaf, what about deader and deatest?
00:38:01 <kmc> like the rule about splitting infinitives
00:38:14 <pikhq_> kmc: Can I at least complain about Detective Comics Comics?
00:38:18 <kmc> people say you can't split infinitives in english
00:38:24 <kmc> "to boldly go"
00:38:24 <fizzie> With PIN, it's sometimes a "personal PIN number".
00:38:29 <kmc> because in most languages an infinitive is one word
00:38:33 <pikhq_> Vorpal: More like a 'stupid'.
00:38:35 <kmc> but... english is not most languages, who cares
00:38:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, right that one is just silly
00:38:46 <kmc> (specifically in latin it's one word, and these people are bitter that they aren't speaking latin)
00:38:47 <coppro> kmc: I will goddamn split all the infinitives I goddamn want.
00:38:48 <pikhq_> Splitting infinitives is standard English usage.
00:38:48 <shachaf> to go where no man has gone before
00:38:55 <kmc> yeah i'm with coppro here
00:39:00 <Vorpal> pikhq_, well yeah. I boldly say what people didn't use to say before I guess
00:39:19 <pikhq_> It's even really *old* English usage.
00:39:19 <Vorpal> (okay that was awkward)
00:39:25 <kmc> let's all find a way to split infinitives while talking about how split infinitives are great
00:39:53 <shachaf> I once read a book called _Split Infinity_
00:39:56 <pikhq_> Admittedly, it only became common more recently.
00:39:56 <shachaf> I guess it was a pun on that?
00:39:58 <zzo38> Vorpal: Yes of course I was planning to or 128 rather than add it
00:40:00 <shachaf> I didn't think about it at the time.
00:40:53 <Vorpal> actually it could enable some dynamic reordering in the CPU since it could help with dependencies on the MSB in that byte. In theory
00:41:13 <zzo38> I think LLVM ought to have a command which may do addition, OR, XOR, but it is not defined which.
00:41:33 <Vorpal> it isn't very well defined usually
00:41:52 <zzo38> In some cases all three operations would lead to the same result
00:42:11 <Vorpal> anyway iirc the CPU only does dependencies on each byte of a register iirc
00:42:24 <zzo38> In some C programs I have written I have wanted to have such an instruction
00:43:07 <Vorpal> zzo38, I very much doubt xor is good on most CPUs
00:43:14 <Vorpal> too complex dependency handling
00:43:44 <Vorpal> (unless you are xoring a register with itself, which means clear on x86 and is special cased in dependency analysis on sandy bridge at least)
00:43:57 <Vorpal> (which the intel CPU for which I have read the docs in question)
00:44:23 <zzo38> In this case I will use OR, but I am just saying that the result would be the same regardless, and the program that compiles the LLVM into the native code should decide what to use.
00:45:07 -!- Gregor has set topic: Food is just pals you eat. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | This is what the bfjoust hill will look like under the new scoring system: http://sprunge.us/fePD.
00:45:13 <zzo38> But not only that; using this ambiguous instruction may also allow certain optimizations to be performed even before compiling to native code.
00:45:40 <zzo38> Is it OK in .IT for multiple sample headings to point to the same audio data?
00:46:06 <zzo38> Vorpal: I don't actually know if there are any; I just gave an example in case it is possible
00:46:14 <Vorpal> Gregor, it is up again? What was the issue?
00:46:50 <Gregor> Mostly... PHP session files...
00:47:20 <zzo38> Then don't use PHP session files
00:47:24 <Vorpal> Gregor, shouldn't they be cleared out after a while?
00:47:33 <Gregor> Vorpal: Hypothetically.
00:47:33 <Vorpal> if not just set up a cron job for it
00:47:43 <Vorpal> set up a cron job that looks at the atime
00:47:52 <Vorpal> Gregor, also why the fuck are you using php?
00:48:22 <Vorpal> Gregor, really I thought you would have used node.js since you are a js guy
00:48:37 <Vorpal> I just wouldn't believe you as a php guy
00:48:42 <Gregor> Perl is one of the few languages worse than PHP.
00:48:51 <Gregor> And Node.js is a pain to use for simple web pages.
00:49:22 <elliott> Gregor: Did I link you to that video about node.js?
00:49:32 <Vorpal> elliott, I haven't seen it. Link me
00:49:58 <elliott> Vorpal: It's the dumbest "anti-node.js" video ever. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1e1zzna-dNw
00:50:18 <kmc> is the joke something involving hipsters
00:50:52 <elliott> kmc: just watch it, i'll give you a prize if you manage to make it through the whole thing
00:50:58 <kmc> ok i'm not going to then
00:51:30 <elliott> kmc: are you telling me you don't thrive on stupid things
00:51:40 <elliott> think how much you could complain about it in here
00:51:41 <kmc> i have a limited appetite for stupid things
00:51:52 <kmc> likewise i thrive on cheesy fries but if i eat too many I will get sick
00:51:56 <kmc> (cheesy chips for you UKians)
00:52:08 <kmc> easy squeezy cheesy peas
00:52:08 <elliott> thank you, i did not know what a fry was!!!!!!
00:52:15 <kmc> elliott: glad i could help
00:52:16 <Gregor> elliott: The title is already promising...
00:52:38 <elliott> Gregor: again, prize if you make it through the whole thing
00:52:47 <Gregor> I'm not good at that kind of challenge.
00:52:55 <zzo38> I think Perl and JavaScript and C and Haskell and so on are better than PHP.
00:53:00 <Gregor> I can't even make it through a whole episode of Everybody Loves Raymond.
00:53:04 <zzo38> All of them can be used with webpages as well as other use.
00:53:25 <shachaf> kmc: I've yet to eat anything today.
00:53:38 <kmc> cheesy chips?
00:53:40 <elliott> Gregor: Did you know JavaScript is sloooooooooooooooooooooooooow?
00:53:49 <elliott> Think how much you could be learning from that video!
00:54:02 <kmc> so what does the person who made the video think you should use instead
00:54:27 <Gregor> elliott: I love when people have voices worse than mine.
00:54:31 <Gregor> It makes me feel warm and fuzzy.
00:54:41 <elliott> other videos from this guy include: Epson Booth Babes Do A Dance
00:54:46 <elliott> Yeah this makes me want to buy an Epson printer. I mean how many do I have to buy to get a free booth babe? Conferences in Japan are so much sexier than the ones we have here. Girls performing dance routines are pretty common place for all sorts of products ranging from the latest cellphone to Epson printers. Even copy machine paper companies have dancing girls.
00:55:03 <Gregor> lol, he actually thinks JS is slow, doesn't he.
00:55:05 <kmc> women can be bought and sold as property
00:55:07 <kmc> true facts
00:55:24 <elliott> Gregor: i assume the rest of the video is even better but have not yet got to that part
00:55:25 <shachaf> *People* can be bought and sold as property.
00:55:31 <kmc> shachaf: it's your fault you got offended!
00:55:43 <kmc> i'm just a straight talking honest joe, telling it like it is
00:55:47 <Gregor> "non-blocking" means it doesn't have to write to the hard drive!
00:55:55 <elliott> oh right i remembered that
00:55:59 <kmc> if you're offended by my sexist/racist comments, it's your fault and you probably chose to be offended for a political reason
00:56:18 <Gregor> Apparently calculating pi is blocking.
00:56:25 <Gregor> Wow, this guy seriously has no fucking clue what he's talking about.
00:56:37 <kmc> node.js is cancer and the only cure is a massive dose of radiation
00:56:41 <kmc> preferably enough to kill all life on earth
00:57:07 <kmc> if you want something not stupid to read about node, i enjoyed nelhage's blog post
00:57:10 <kmc> http://blog.nelhage.com/2012/03/why-node-js-is-cool/
00:57:18 <elliott> Gregor: his hand movement is great
00:57:27 <elliott> he just kind of waves it about when he realises he has no arguments
00:57:36 <kmc> tldr: it's not about performance, dumbasses, it's about enforcing a standard, composable way to handle events
00:57:43 <shachaf> kmc: What he says is true but also depressing.
00:57:44 <elliott> YOU EITHER HAVE TO BE READING THE DATA
00:57:47 <elliott> OR YOU HAVE TO BE WRITING THE DATA
00:57:58 <elliott> AND ONE OF THOSE THINGS IS GOING TO BLOCK
00:57:58 <Gregor> Urrrrgh, "real-time" is the only bit that's really an out-and-out lie, and he dismissed it as stupidly as everything else.
00:58:00 <kmc> that way doesn't have to be "single threaded async with callbacks" but that's what node uses
00:58:09 <elliott> Real-time! Well, it's JavaScript!
00:58:26 <elliott> Distributed devices, eh, maybe. Maybe.
00:58:50 <elliott> Gregor: I have to agree with an "end-to-end JavaScript experience" not sounding like a good thing, though.
00:58:52 <zzo38> JavaScript is slow but so is PHP and Ruby and other interpreted programming languages (other than Forth).
00:59:03 <Gregor> elliott: Yes, but this guy is SO, SO BAD.
00:59:22 <elliott> "Hard to tell whether that one's real."
00:59:28 <elliott> node.js: a CONSPIRACY OF LIES.
00:59:40 <Gregor> I'm not even particularly a fan of Node.
00:59:58 <shachaf> I should start a website whose whole premise is to post really stupid articles to make people like Gregor link to them.
01:00:01 <elliott> node requires its OWN HTTP SERVER
01:00:17 <elliott> "You don't just run, you know, Apache"
01:00:33 <elliott> you have to install THEIR thing
01:00:36 <kmc> zzo38: javascript JITs do much better than popular implementations of PHP and Ruby
01:00:55 <kmc> i saw a project trying to port node.js style to LuaJIT
01:00:56 <Gregor> elliott: I watched it all.
01:00:57 <kmc> that's a cool idea
01:01:14 <Gregor> elliott: WHERE'S MY FUCKING PRIZE
01:01:20 <elliott> Gregor: your prize is everything you've learned about node.js
01:01:37 <elliott> kmc: does it solve the part where you have to write in cps
01:01:47 <elliott> Gregor: It doesn't follow the RFC model.
01:01:48 <shachaf> Doesn't Lua have coroutines?
01:02:13 <elliott> shachaf: does it solve the part where you can't use any existing code that does any kind of non-trivial calculation
01:02:25 <elliott> i mean node.js isn't all bad or "hipster" or anything
01:02:31 <elliott> but its concurrency stance is really kinda dumb
01:02:31 <shachaf> elliott: Coöperative multitasking is a reasonable tradeoff.
01:02:57 <shachaf> It has nothing to do with Continuation CPS-passing style.
01:03:31 <elliott> shachaf: It does when everything is callback-structured like node is.
01:03:37 <elliott> With coroutines, yes, it's less painful.
01:03:38 <shachaf> elliott: Not *necessarily*.
01:03:45 <shachaf> You could have multiple threads handling events.
01:03:49 <elliott> But you still have to be careful about your computations.
01:03:53 <shachaf> Admittedly that would be kind of weird.
01:03:59 <elliott> shachaf: That kind of defeats the point of node.js?
01:04:04 <shachaf> Anyway I can tell this channel is a bunch of h8rs.
01:04:10 <elliott> Our aim is most thoroughly hecked.
01:04:28 <elliott> do you think they know we're still mocking them
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01:04:55 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, but either way compiled programming languages generally work faster and may not use as much memory as interpreter
01:05:07 <zzo38> So use a compiled programming language
01:05:18 <zzo38> Such as, C and Haskell
01:05:28 <kmc> JITs can produce better code
01:07:59 <elliott> what is a compiled programming language
01:08:03 <elliott> there are haskell interpreters
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01:09:07 <quintopia> !bfjoust return_of_ais523_speedy2 >>>>>>>>(>[-[++[---]]])*21
01:09:10 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_return_of_ais523_speedy2: 25.3
01:10:19 <zzo38> Yes, Haskell can be interpreted as well as compiled; it is commonly used both ways. C is almost always compiled, although there is C interpreter as well.
01:14:01 <quintopia> !bfjoust brachiation ->->(-)*5(>)*4(>[(<)*3(+)*16<<(+[<{}])%28>(-)*50<(-)*50>(>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*15[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](+)*50)*3 (>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*15[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](-)*50)*24 ]++)*25
01:14:04 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_brachiation: 36.6
01:14:10 <quintopia> !bfjoust brachiation >->(-)*5(>)*4(>[(<)*3(+)*16<<(+[<{}])%28>(-)*50<(-)*50>(>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*15[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](+)*50)*3 (>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*15[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](-)*50)*24 ]++)*25
01:14:13 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_brachiation: 37.1
01:14:44 <quintopia> !bfjoust brachiation >->(-)*5(>)*4(>[(<)*3(+)*16<<(+[<{}])%28>(-)*50<(-)*50<-->>(>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*15[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](+)*50)*3 (>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*15[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](-)*50)*24 ]++)*25
01:14:47 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_brachiation: 37.6
01:15:11 <EgoBot> Score for shachaf_hi: 8.4
01:15:12 <quintopia> !bfjoust brachiation >->(-)*5(>)*4(>[(<)*3(+)*16<<(+[<{}])%28>(-)*50<(-)*50<(-)*10>>(>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*15[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](+)*50)*3 (>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*15[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](-)*50)*24 ]++)*25
01:15:14 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_brachiation: 37.7
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01:21:34 <quintopia> !bfjoust brachiation >->(-)*5(>)*4(>[(<)*3(+)*7<<(+[<{}])%28>(-)*50<(-)*50<(-)*10>>(>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*15[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](+)*50)*3 (>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*15[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](-)*50)*24 ]++)*25
01:21:37 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_brachiation: 38.7
01:22:18 <quintopia> !bfjoust brachiation >->(-)*5(>)*4(>[(<)*3(+)*7<<(+[<{}])%28>(-)*50<(-)*50<(-)*10>>(>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](+)*50)*3 (>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](-)*50)*24 ]++)*25
01:22:21 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_brachiation: 46.8
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01:34:13 <quintopia> !bfjoust brachiation >->(-)*5(>)*4(>[(<)*4(+)*10<<(+[<{}])%28>(-)*50<(-)*50<(-)*10>>(>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](+)*50)*3 (>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](-)*50)*24 ]++)*25
01:34:16 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_brachiation: 45.7
01:34:32 <quintopia> !bfjoust brachiation >->(-)*5(>)*4(>[(<)*4(+)*7<<(+[<{}])%28>(-)*50<(-)*50<(-)*10>>(>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](+)*50)*3 (>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](-)*50)*24 ]++)*25
01:34:35 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_brachiation: 45.8
01:35:00 <quintopia> !bfjoust brachiation >->(-)*5(>)*4(>[(<)*3(+)*10<<(+[<{}])%28>(-)*50<(-)*50<(-)*10>>(>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](+)*50)*3 (>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](-)*50)*24 ]++)*25
01:35:03 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_brachiation: 45.6
01:35:10 <quintopia> !bfjoust brachiation >->(-)*5(>)*4(>[(<)*3(+)*4<<(+[<{}])%28>(-)*50<(-)*50<(-)*10>>(>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](+)*50)*3 (>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](-)*50)*24 ]++)*25
01:35:13 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_brachiation: 45.6
01:35:28 <quintopia> !bfjoust brachiation >->(-)*5(>)*4(>[(<)*3(+)*7<<(+[<{}])%28>(-)*50<(-)*50<(-)*10>>(>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](+)*50)*3 (>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](-)*50)*24 ]++)*25
01:35:30 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_brachiation: 46.8
01:35:48 <shachaf> !bfjoust hello h+e+l+l+o+.....
01:35:51 <EgoBot> Score for shachaf_hello: 10.2
01:36:11 <quintopia> it has to be exactly seven, exactly 3 away to work...more or less hurts it
01:41:06 <elliott> quintopia: use ais' constant-tweaking program already
01:43:51 <quintopia> !bfjoust brachiation >->(-)*5(>)*4(>[(<)*3(+)*7<<(+[<{}])%28>(-)*50<(-)*50<(-)*10>>(>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](+)*50)*3 (>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](-)*50)*2(>)*7 (>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*22]++)*24
01:43:53 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_brachiation: 47.3
01:43:53 <elliott> Gregor: That node.js guy thinks people use CGI instead.
01:44:10 <elliott> Gregor: He explicitly says it at the end of the video.
01:44:16 <elliott> CGI is the Common Gateway Interface. It is how almost every Web Server on the planet works. Rather than doing something elaborate you just "print" to the http port. There may be a buffer, or not, but essentially it is no different than outputting to the command line.
01:44:38 <elliott> Yes, But RFC 3875 is the model for almost all web serving. CGI is not the same as .CGI files it is a standard for the communication between server and client.
01:44:38 <elliott> BlackwaterOpsDotCom in reply to businessgeek 1 month ago
01:44:56 <elliott> This guy must be some kind of troll.
01:47:27 <elliott> A - a +2,+4 ring of slaying (1.0 aum)
01:59:49 <quintopia> !bfjoust return_of_ais523_definder2 http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot.hg/index.cgi/raw-file/c41abe18a522/ais523_definder2.bfjoust
01:59:53 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_return_of_ais523_definder2: 20.9
02:00:49 <quintopia> !bfjoust return_of_ais523_definder http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot.hg/index.cgi/raw-file/aa2598db68b0/ais523_definder.bfjoust
02:00:53 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_return_of_ais523_definder: 25.9
02:01:39 <quintopia> !bfjoust return_of_ais523_definder2 <
02:01:41 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_return_of_ais523_definder2: 0.0
02:07:20 <Gregor> !bfjoust return_of_suicide <
02:07:23 <EgoBot> Score for Gregor_return_of_suicide: 0.0
02:12:31 <elliott> quintopia: so remember interior_crocodile_alligator
02:13:33 <elliott> quintopia: how many orders of magnitude has making a viable warrior become since then
02:13:35 <quintopia> it was the spiritual successor of anti-space_elevator
02:13:48 <quintopia> and probably the origination of the reverse offset clear
02:14:48 <quintopia> elliott: making a viable warrior doesnt' *progress* does it? it's all rock-paper-scissors :P
02:15:02 <elliott> quintopia: of course it progresses in the skill you need
02:15:21 <elliott> space_elevator and all of the modern warriors are vastly more complicated to beat than 2009's warriors were
02:15:49 <quintopia> and you still haven't studied the hill have you?
02:16:03 -!- quintopia has set topic: Food is just pals you eat. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | This is what the bfjoust hill will look like under the new scoring system: http://sprunge.us/YULh.
02:16:41 <quintopia> and you never made your chevrolet_movie_theater
02:16:52 <elliott> i guess that's what i'll call this next one
02:16:53 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
02:16:59 <quintopia> it wouldnt take you long, if you even cared to learn
02:17:09 <elliott> i don't learn, i just put the pieces together until it works
02:17:27 <FireFly> you people and your bfjoust program names
02:17:43 <elliott> FireFly: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZwhNFOn4ik
02:18:29 <quintopia> !bfjoust return_of_elliott_interior_crocodile_alligator (>)*9([-[++[(-)*128([-{([+{[-]}])%64}])%64]]]>)*20(-)*128
02:18:32 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_return_of_elliott_interior_crocodile_alligator: 24.2
02:18:42 <elliott> at least it's on the hill again
02:18:48 <elliott> when did it get pushed off
02:19:16 <elliott> quintopia: i mean last time
02:19:17 <quintopia> elliott: near the end of last february
02:19:26 <elliott> huh? no it was on when werecat revived things
02:20:23 <quintopia> elliott: it does still beat space_elevator at least :P
02:20:55 <quintopia> nothing i can do against a clear that ridiculous
02:21:20 <elliott> quintopia: if i tell you my plan will you promise not to counter it/plan how to before i unleash it on the hill
02:23:25 <quintopia> only if i can use the results myself if they are awesome enough :P
02:24:43 <elliott> (a) is not a fast rush, yet
02:24:46 <elliott> (b) uses *no* decoys whatsoever
02:25:00 <elliott> i have several sub-ideas to try on top of this structure
02:26:40 <elliott> quintopia: what's a good standard representative few warriors to test things out with egojsout
02:26:58 -!- quintopia has set topic: Food is just pals you eat. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | This is what the bfjoust hill will look like under the new scoring system: http://sprunge.us/aSVX.
02:27:45 <elliott> well i need to test my warriors against other things with egojsout as i develop
02:27:55 <elliott> so what are a few warriors that are representative of the strategies used on the current hill
02:27:57 <quintopia> did anyone do anything special for father's day?
02:27:58 <elliott> that i can use to develop my program with
02:28:12 <quintopia> elliott: insidious2 and atehwa_test_blah for fast rush
02:28:24 <elliott> my program will inevitably lose to fast rushes
02:28:39 <elliott> quintopia: or did you misread my (a)
02:28:40 <quintopia> ffspg, ffldg, and lead_acetate_philip
02:28:52 <quintopia> elliott: it doesnt have to! if it defends
02:28:52 <elliott> ok i meant like a list of 3 programs :P
02:29:13 <elliott> i'll just go spelevator, whichever one werecat's top is
02:29:17 <elliott> and one other, probably ais523's top
02:29:32 <elliott> quintopia: it will not be a conventional defence program
02:30:13 <quintopia> elliott: i gave you 8 names out of 47. you really do need to understand those in order to do well.
02:30:32 <quintopia> (10 if you count the fast rushes you say you care naught about)
02:33:12 <elliott> quintopia: you don't understand
02:33:15 <elliott> i wrote ica understanding no programs
02:34:08 <elliott> quintopia: (>)*12 beats spelevator on one tape length
02:34:51 <quintopia> because that extra step saves it hundreds of cycles against other programs
02:34:57 <quintopia> it makes up for the few times it suicides
02:35:32 <quintopia> i think i mentioned it in the writeup
02:36:24 <quintopia> "After it returns to build this extra decoy, it assumes it must be on a longer tape and rushes ahead to two spaces ahead of where it knows it is safe to go. This causes it to suicide against some opponents on certain tape lengths, but successfully compensates for the fact that it builds far fewer decoys in this situation by ignoring some of the opponent's decoys."
02:37:19 <quintopia> elliott: also you prove my point. ica never did well. :P
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02:37:53 <quintopia> same as john's programs never did well...he actively avoids looking at other programs on the hill
02:38:35 <quintopia> also he should update that retro programming article eh
02:38:50 <elliott> quintopia: uh it was top 5 for a while iirc
02:39:30 <quintopia> elliott: i dont recall that. in any case, it doesnt suck as much as everything else you've submitted, so that's cool
02:42:12 <quintopia> elliott: make me eat my words. write a champion.
02:42:22 <elliott> i'l lnever write a champion
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02:50:55 <quintopia> apparently ica does not beat counterpoke. counterpoke is a beast.
02:50:58 <elliott> quintopia: how many tape lengths do you think is reasonable to sacrifice
02:51:16 <quintopia> elliott: as many as increases your score
02:51:28 <elliott> quintopia: how many would you design around
02:51:48 <quintopia> i'm not sure in what sense you mean to sacrifice them
02:52:46 <quintopia> skipping more than one or two cells ahead tends to cause lowering of score, but of course, the actual optimal value depends on the rest of the program
02:52:53 <elliott> quintopia: by definitely suiciding
02:53:13 <quintopia> elliott: like, using a rule-of-11 at the beginning or somet?
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02:55:02 <quintopia> elliott: it doesnt gain you much, but if you expect to lose short tapes anyway, it also doesnt hurt
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02:55:24 <elliott> helps more w/o yr dumb score changes
02:55:30 <elliott> argue my side in this argument please
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02:58:17 <quintopia> elliott: how do you know it helps more w/o score changes
02:58:54 <elliott> because the lengths you sacrifice don't count against you
02:59:25 <quintopia> just perhaps by not as much (depending on opponent)
02:59:59 <quintopia> in the current system, the number of lengths you win is factored into your points, which is a part of the score
03:00:37 <quintopia> in the current system, losing on a tape length hurts you equally no matter how good your opponent
03:00:55 <quintopia> in the new system it would hurt you more if you lost a tape length to a bad opponent
03:01:14 <elliott> "the number of lengths you win is factored into your points" wait, it is?
03:01:24 <elliott> the current system is broken too then
03:01:56 <quintopia> everyone else has always thought it worked p well
03:03:45 <elliott> "everyone" includes me, so no
03:04:07 <quintopia> have you considered the fact that in a fixed-point winner-take-all system, all someone has to do get the highest possible score (thereby leaving everyone else with a score of 0.0) is to barely beat every other program?
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03:04:22 <quintopia> this is a whole lot easier than beating every other program on every length and polarity
03:04:49 <elliott> i very much doubt anyone can write a program which beats every other one with current skills
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03:05:06 <elliott> if you do it's a momentous event and the scores will be messed whatever happens
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03:08:33 <quintopia> elliott: yes it's difficult, but it's been done before and i think it could happen again
03:08:55 <quintopia> elliott: and if it does, no program except the champion gets ranked. it's a degenerate case.
03:09:22 <quintopia> (if the hill had 100 programs on it, i would agree with you that it was essentially impossible)
03:11:48 <elliott> well that program has essentially obliterated the competitoin
03:11:57 <elliott> all you need to do to fix it is beat it
03:12:32 <quintopia> so you are okay with the game being broken just because one program is good?
03:12:50 <quintopia> i kinda like the idea that even in that situation, we'd still have meaningful rankings
03:12:59 <elliott> if one program beats every other program then yes the game is in dire trouble
03:14:40 <quintopia> not if "beats" is defined as "wins more than loses against"
03:14:54 <quintopia> since it is almost certainly losing on *some* lengths and polarities
03:55:43 <shachaf> elliott: If I played a roguelike would you watch?
03:56:08 <elliott> shachaf: what roguelike would it be
03:57:20 <shachaf> what about: robotfindskitten
03:58:01 <elliott> it's a single-player zen experience
03:58:34 <shachaf> what about crawl heavy :'(
03:58:40 <quintopia> last year someone mentioned a hill for short programs, and i think that's actually a good idea. easy to implement too: just make an identical hill to egojoust, but change the command for it so it doesn't accept URLs anymore.
03:58:45 <coppro> 93% of data requests fully or partially complied with
03:58:55 <coppro> "We received a request from the Passport Canada office to remove a YouTube video of a Canadian citizen urinating on his passport and flushing it down the toilet. We did not comply with this request."
03:59:00 <elliott> quintopia: not easy to implement
03:59:05 <elliott> you'd have to add a special-case to egobot's inner code
04:00:40 <elliott> quintopia: i have read egobot's code
04:00:44 <elliott> the urls work for every command
04:00:50 <elliott> what evidence do you have for your position
04:01:21 <quintopia> even if you're right, it's still easy to implement
04:01:34 <quintopia> just add a line to the command that truncates the file :P
04:01:40 <elliott> i don't think a hill for short programs is good
04:01:45 <elliott> most long programs just want better macro facilities
04:02:13 <quintopia> but i think it would be fun to see what people could do with compression
04:03:28 <quintopia> (i do still support the idea of adding c-style macros to bfjoust syntax)
04:06:07 <quintopia> you can make them unugly by changing the syntax
04:07:15 <shachaf> Fun fact! "adom" is the Hebrew word for "red".
04:09:37 <elliott> shachaf: ADOM is awful. But I'll watch it.
04:10:18 <shachaf> elliott: Would you watch Zork Zero?
04:10:43 <elliott> shachaf: http://ancardia.wikia.com/wiki/Jaakkos'_server
04:10:49 <shachaf> Would you watch Zork: Grand Inquisitor?
04:11:22 <elliott> Looks like the server is down.
04:11:26 <shachaf> It's against my principles to play ADOM anyway.
04:12:29 <elliott> "It's possible under Windows to monitor and, I believe, intercept calls to external libraries, much like under Linux. However, ADOM is a DOS program, so that doesn't help any. (There is a Windows port of ADOM, but it's only in beta.) DOS doesn't have external libraries - all of the functions that ADOM Sage needs to monitor and intercept are inside the code, so getting at them would require disassembling ADOM. (This is an oversimplification - see
04:12:29 <elliott> the section on DOS for details.)
04:12:29 <elliott> So instead ADOM Sage takes the Linux version of ADOM and makes it run under Windows. Windows allows a program to set up its address space to match that of a Linux program, and in most other respects (function calling conventions, register usage, structure padding, instruction set, etc.) Windows and Linux are identical, so this isn't too difficult to do. Additionally, Linux programs (like Windows programs) contain detailed information about functi
04:12:32 <elliott> ons that they expect the operating system to provide, so ADOM Sage can redirect those function requests to Windows or to its own internal routines.
04:12:35 <elliott> Windows programs do differ from Linux programs in how they allocate stack space. So ADOM Sage simply takes allocates all available stack space before doing anything else. A bit wasteful on memory, but it's simple and effective."
04:12:43 <elliott> "Running a Linux program under Windows consists of interpreting the ELF file format used by Linux programs, loading the program into the Windows program's address space, and then transferring control to the Linux program, redirecting any requests for Linux library functions to equivalent Windows functions. ADOM uses two libraries - libc and ncurses. Most of libc's functions are available in Microsoft's C runtime library. Functions from ncurses ar
04:12:44 <elliott> e handled by PDCurses; I had to hack PDCurses to make it more compatible with ncurses. (For these purposes it's not enough to be compatible at the source level - macros, constants, and structure layouts all have to match so that code is compatible at the binary level.)"
04:12:48 <elliott> Gregor: You were so preempted.
04:13:56 <elliott> shachaf: telnet light.bitprayer.com
04:15:23 <shachaf> elliott: I told you, man, principles.
04:16:07 <elliott> ok then the answer is no, i won't watch you play a roguelike
04:16:16 <shachaf> elliott: What about NetHack?
04:16:37 <shachaf> Come on, I'd be so bad at SLASH'EM.
04:16:41 <shachaf> I haven't played it in years.
04:16:45 <shachaf> And I was never very good.
04:17:01 <shachaf> #ESOTERIC IS A STUPID GAME
04:18:13 <elliott> so did you have any intention of actually playing any of these when you pinged me
04:18:32 <shachaf> I'd play SLASH'EM or NetHack.
04:20:34 <elliott> two of those games are boring and one is boring to watch
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04:24:24 <kmc> shachaf: the only winning move is not to play
04:24:32 <kmc> but we've already established that i'm a Loser
04:25:00 <kmc> it's from the blog article series i keep talking about
04:25:06 <kmc> http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-or-the-office-according-to-the-office/
04:25:12 <shachaf> Can you be a 𝕃oser instead?
04:25:14 <kmc> <kmc> i'm intoxicated by the idea that this amusing, somewhat farcical mainstream sitcom is actually a coded guide to sociopathic realpolitik at the highest levels
04:25:19 <shachaf> Hmm, that's a non-BMP character right there.
04:25:24 <kmc> that came through as a replacement character
04:25:50 <kmc> mosh translates any character which is unknown by the locale into the replacement character
04:26:04 <kmc> cause it needs to know the width of each character
04:26:27 <shachaf> Wait, Unicode doesn't have MATHEMATICAL SCRIPT CAPITAL L?
04:26:54 <shachaf> 1D4A6 MATHEMATICAL SCRIPT CAPITAL K [𝒦]
04:26:55 <shachaf> 1D4A9 MATHEMATICAL SCRIPT CAPITAL N [𝒩]
04:27:03 <kmc> but there is SCRIPT CAPITAL L
04:27:11 <shachaf> My terminal also renders K and N but not 1D4A7
04:27:12 <kmc> http://www.w3.org/TR/MathML2/script.html
04:27:24 <kmc> ah, i think some of them were included in the BMP
04:27:29 <kmc> and the rest are "MATHEMATICAL"
04:27:31 <shachaf> kmc: Yes, but I can't find this one.
04:27:33 <kmc> i saw that one
04:27:40 <shachaf> I know the situation with the DOUBLE-STRUCK letters.
04:27:53 <shachaf> Oh, maybe it's the same thing here.
04:28:37 <shachaf> 02117 SOUND RECORDING COPYRIGHT [℗]
04:29:02 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/%E2%84%92
04:34:03 <shachaf> 02247 NEITHER APPROXIMATELY NOR ACTUALLY EQUAL TO [≇]
04:34:16 <kmc> \scumbagmathematician{invents a way to write bold letters on blackboard}{uses it in print to mean something different from bold}
04:34:21 <shachaf> I guess I'd better start using that for things taht are *really* different.
04:34:22 <kmc> shachaf: -_-
04:34:30 <shachaf> 02246 APPROXIMATELY BUT NOT ACTUALLY EQUAL TO [≆]
04:34:33 <kmc> what about "actually but not approximately equal to"
04:34:48 <elliott> kmc: i don't like blackboard bold
04:35:32 <shachaf> 1B48F BASICALLY THE SAME THING AS FOR ANYTHING YOU CARE ABOUT []
04:35:56 <kmc> ▁▂▃▄▅▆▇█ ＵＮＩＣＯＤＥ █▇▆▅▄▃▂▁
04:36:28 <kmc> ░░░░▒▒▒▒▓▓▓▓████
04:39:46 <kmc> 1A037 ANYONE REALLY BEEN FAR EVEN AS DECIDED TO USE EVEN GO WANT TO DO LOOK MORE LIKE [�]
04:41:56 <shachaf> 0FBF9 ARABIC LIGATURE UIGHUR KIRGHIZ YEH WITH HAMZA ABOVE WITH ALEF MAKSURA ISOLATED FORM [ﯹ]
04:42:35 <elliott> my favourite is still GLAGOLITIC CAPITAL LETTER SPIDERY HA
04:42:40 <coppro> elliott: http://blognomic.com/archive/a_new_era1/
04:42:49 <kmc> shachaf: uighur please
04:43:13 <elliott> coppro: upset that you had to justify a core rules scam
04:43:37 <shachaf> All these great non-BMP codepoints I can't use in here. :-(
04:44:08 <elliott> shachaf: why can't you us ethem
04:44:20 <shachaf> elliott: Because my IRCthing ir borken!<
04:45:45 <shachaf> 00753 ARABIC LETTER BEH WITH THREE DOTS POINTING UPWARDS BELOW AND TWO DOTS ABOVE [ݓ]
04:45:48 <shachaf> 00753 ARABIC LETTER BEH WITH THREE DOTS POINTING UPWARDS BELOW AND TWO DOTS ABOVE [ݓ]
04:46:34 <shachaf> 01F9E GREEK CAPITAL LETTER ETA WITH PSILI AND PERISPOMENI AND PROSGEGRAMMENI [ᾞ]
04:46:59 <fizzie> 1F502 CLOCKWISE RIGHTWARDS AND LEFTWARDS OPEN CIRCLE ARROWS WITH CIRCLED ONE OVERLAY does get pretty long too.
04:47:24 <shachaf> What do you call things that aren't in the BMP?
04:47:55 <shachaf> 0FE3D PRESENTATION FORM FOR VERTICAL LEFT DOUBLE ANGLE BRACKET [︽]
04:48:21 <fizzie> 1D1CE MUSICAL SYMBOL TEMPUS IMPERFECTUM CUM PROLATIONE IMPERFECTA DIMINUTION-3.
04:50:36 <shachaf> 02A92 GREATER-THAN ABOVE LESS-THAN ABOVE DOUBLE-LINE EQUAL [⪒]
04:50:51 <fizzie> elliott: Yes; the two preceding characters are DIMINUTION-1 and DIMINUTION-2.
04:51:37 <shachaf> Where can I get an up-to-date Unicode list of symbols file thing?
04:52:18 <shachaf> Hey, you can buy Unicode 6.1 as a book.
04:52:21 <shachaf> This 692-page volume may be purchased from Lulu.com for $15.96, plus shipping.
04:52:36 <elliott> <shachaf> Where can I get an up-to-date Unicode list of symbols file thing?
04:52:36 <fizzie> I would expect ftp://ftp.unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/UnicodeData.txt to be up to date, since it doesn't mention a version.
04:52:39 <elliott> there's a textfile somewhere on - yeah
04:53:07 <shachaf> elliott: Ew, what a terrible format.
04:53:11 <fizzie> It lacks the sample letters, though.
04:53:13 <shachaf> I might have to write a few lines of code to parse it.
04:54:09 <shachaf> Code should be measured in cache lines instead of code lines.
04:54:23 <shachaf> This is 1000 Lines of Cache.
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04:54:51 <shachaf> elliott: Can you explain the format please?
04:55:27 <shachaf> fizzie: Can you explain the format please?
04:56:02 <fizzie> First and second columns are code point and the name, for the most part.
04:56:17 <fizzie> Columns are separated by ;. Other columns are boring.
04:56:44 <fizzie> Well, control characters have <control> in there and name in column 11 or something.
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05:10:55 <zzo38> Do you prefer to specify the altitude by sea level or relative to center of the Earth?
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05:30:42 <elliott> coppro: I like how you got a CfJ to invalidate your scam immediately afterwards.
05:30:47 <elliott> coppro: Title "Because I dislike core rules scams".
05:30:54 <elliott> BlogNomic: the worst nomic.
05:31:16 <coppro> elliott: yeah but it didn't get a single FOR vote
05:31:16 <elliott> [[Its there so that if enough people would rather not have you win, we have that option. There is no fair play rule against this either. Please don’t be a hypocrite and call this “petty” while exposing core rules scams.
05:31:27 <elliott> wasn't clucky whining a lot about the agoran scam too
05:31:49 <elliott> "Personally, I think core rules are still just rules, so scams are still valid."
05:31:53 <elliott> hey maybe there is hope forBN
05:33:17 <elliott> coppro: scam clucky out of the game
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05:50:30 <quintopia> elliott: i admire your use of hash consing on the lazy evaluation talk page
05:52:26 <quintopia> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hash_consing
05:52:38 <quintopia> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Lazy_evaluation
05:53:20 <elliott> i know whatoihe hasoih cosicnsoign is
05:53:23 <elliott> okew oiy i ghetio it noaiwe
05:54:19 <elliott> monqy: myabe migrate sil talk here
05:54:28 <elliott> i just realised it was in #crawligithio oops
05:58:31 <fizzie> Millions of ops per second can be handled by today's computational machines.
05:59:18 * shachaf can "handle" several ops per second.
05:59:31 <shachaf> fizzie: /mode #esoteric +o elliott
06:09:11 -!- Zetro has left ("...").
06:17:27 <shachaf> kmc: Remember AOL keywords?
06:19:34 <kmc> not really
06:20:04 <zzo38> Is it allowed in .IT file for multiple sample headings to point to the same address of the audio data?
06:22:25 <shachaf> All of the above were part-time activities he assumed in conjunction with his primary position as Director of the Computer Networks Division ("Division 7") of the Information Sciences Institute at the University of Southern California.[4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14][15][16]
06:49:41 <fizzie> zzo38: I doubt that's actually been specified anywhere, but I'd *guess* it's likely to work in most (if not all) players.
06:57:15 <Taneb> I think I was connected all night
07:04:22 <zzo38> fizzie: Which players would it not work with?
07:04:42 <fizzie> zzo38: I don't know, I haven't tested. It might easily work with all.
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07:22:17 <Sgeo> I accidentally got my gf addicted to xkcd
07:22:53 <Taneb> Well, at least it's not Ctrl-Alt-Delete
07:23:44 <zzo38> fizzie: Do you know if any existing files use that?
07:24:31 <kmc> Sgeo: new xkcd or old xkcd?
07:25:00 <Sgeo> Well, she's pressing random and linking me to the ones she likes
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07:28:38 <kmc> "show her goatkcd"
07:29:37 <kmc> honestly smbc has a lot of crap strips too
07:29:38 <quintopia> goattkcd does tend to be about x times funnier
07:29:41 <kmc> especially because it updates every day
07:29:50 <kmc> but the bad ones don't annoy me as much
07:29:54 <elliott> smbc's tone is a lot less annoying
07:29:59 <quintopia> kmc: signal to oise ratio is fairly high
07:30:09 <kmc> people generally aren't like "zomg smbc embodies everything about being a nerd"
07:30:26 <quintopia> plus zach weiner is accessible and interesting as an online persona
07:30:31 <kmc> it's pretty honest to what it claims to be / what people think it is
07:30:38 <quintopia> an entertainer without pretention or angst
07:30:56 <zzo38> Also, could this multiple pointing to same address be used to make just intonation if the C5Speed is adjusted?
07:32:33 <zzo38> (Other uses would be to change loops, or to start a sample at a different position than normal, or different vibrato)
07:32:55 <shachaf> kmc: Did you like XKCD before it was mainstream?
07:32:57 <quintopia> zzo38: youd have to add a parameter for what key itistuned in then
07:33:38 <kmc> shachaf: no, i liked it starting when it became mainstream and for a while after that
07:33:59 <kmc> at least, I found out about it when seemingly all my other friends did
07:34:09 <kmc> i guess it 'went viral' as they say
07:34:19 <kmc> but maybe my friends are not "mainstream"
07:34:50 <kmc> i would say the era of "every slide deck about a software project must have one xkcd strip in it" was a bit later
07:35:16 <kmc> there was also a period when it seemed like every blog -- regardless of their normal content -- would repost xkcd strips as they came out
07:36:06 <zzo38> quintopia: How do you mean?
07:36:34 <zzo38> O, I think I know what you meant
07:38:03 <zzo38> Of course there would be a way to input what key it is tuned in if you want to make just intonation; but that does not need to be saved tothe .IT file
07:43:15 <fizzie> zzo38: I don't think Impulse Tracker itself writes that kind of files, at least, but I'm not sure.
07:43:58 <zzo38> fizzie: Perhaps Impulse Tracker doesn't, but does any other program do so, or only my own program ITMCK?
07:44:06 <elliott> fizzie: how do you add a user to a group i forgot help
07:46:31 <Gregor> usermod -a <user> -G <group>
07:46:41 <Gregor> Don't forget the -a or you'll regret it.
07:47:03 <Gregor> Overwrite the users groups with ONLY the one listed (i.e., remove them from all other groups)
07:47:52 <Gregor> I suspect that's inherited from something, probably Solaris.
07:50:40 <elliott> Gregor: after i do that how do i get a new termina lwith that group active
07:51:04 <Gregor> Painfully. If you just need one terminal, I usually just let su do it for me, i.e. su - <yourself>
07:51:08 <Gregor> Otherwise log out and back in.
07:51:29 <elliott> why are standard terminals not login terminals
07:51:53 <Gregor> Being a login terminal is not sufficient, that couldn't magically give it groups it didn't inherit.
07:52:18 <fizzie> No need to su, you can just 'newgrp'.
07:52:25 <shachaf> elliott: Did you know groups are a property of a process, not of a user?
07:52:26 <elliott> 12:46 "My friend's brother's ex-wife's uncle's old schoolmate inherited some
07:52:26 <elliott> money, bought shares of Decos Bananas Co. and became a millionaire. I
07:52:27 <elliott> think of it as an example of how anyone can become rich and happy if he
07:52:43 <Gregor> fizzie: Well, there's a command I didn't know exists.
07:52:59 <fizzie> It's not especially any better.
07:53:19 <kmc> yeah the groups come from /bin/login
07:53:24 <kmc> which is setuid and so can confer them
07:53:44 <fizzie> It's really meant for changing the actual group ID, but ISTR it can be used to refresh the supplementary groups too.
07:54:30 <fizzie> "Also tries to add the group to the user groupset" that sort of thing.
08:12:16 <olsner> "Why do you need "a+b" to concatenate strings? You can always just "new StringBuffer().add(a).add(b).toString()", which is just as easy to write."
08:12:34 <olsner> ... I hope it's a troll :)
08:12:53 <kmc> i mean if you press + in a Java IDE that's what you get, right?
08:13:14 <kmc> just like if you press a+b in a C compiler, you get "add %rax, %rdx"
08:13:21 <shachaf> Java IDEs are pretty good.
08:13:39 <shachaf> I think Java is a secret plan to improve the state of tools for working with code.
08:13:45 <shachaf> Because it's just unworkable any other way.
08:13:56 <kmc> did you see http://www.eclipse.org/xtend/ ?
08:14:00 <shachaf> I found out about "dependency injection" recently.
08:14:08 <shachaf> I mean, what it apparently actually means.
08:14:14 <kmc> it's one of these "better Java than Java" projects
08:14:34 <kmc> interesting because it comes from the Eclipse people and so good tool support is a top priority
08:15:33 <kmc> it fits into some Eclipse magic sauce where you can define your own DSL or syntactic extensions to Java and get not only a compiler to JVM but full Eclipse support basically for free
08:16:41 <elliott> Howcome in Haskell, when there is a value that would be discarded, () is used instead of ⊥?
08:17:19 <kmc> elliott: you see both
08:17:25 <elliott> stop assuming im idiots you fuckers
08:17:32 <elliott> when i say something silly i'm quoting someone else :(
08:17:46 <Gregor> elliott: Obviously, and I'm just responding with something equally silly.
08:18:00 <olsner> elliott: don't forget the quotes when you quote
08:18:09 <shachaf> elliott: STOP ASSUMING GREGOR IS IDIOTS
08:18:09 <kmc> oh, i thought this was like "should forever :: M a -> M b or forever :: M a -> M ()"
08:18:38 <elliott> it is very important the quotes are not present
08:18:43 <kmc> clearly you should use Void because then i can use edwardk's 'void' package to inject insidious memory corruption bugs into your program
08:19:39 <shachaf> Speaking of insidiosity, when's that contest happening?
08:19:49 <shachaf> elliott would like to enter.
08:20:33 <shachaf> kmc: Do you know that foo.chr doesn't work in Ruby for foo > 255?
08:20:47 <shachaf> As far as I can tell you do something like [foo].pack('U'), where 'U' means UTF-8.
08:21:03 <shachaf> [256].pack('U')[0].ord == 256
08:21:06 <kmc> that's a very perl-ish solution
08:21:08 <elliott> kmc: what are the memory corruption bugs
08:21:38 <shachaf> elliott: http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/void/0.5.6/doc/html/src/Data-Void.html
08:21:38 <kmc> elliott: the GHC optimized implementation of 'vacuous' is unsound if you use type families
08:21:59 <kmc> it assumes that type constructors are parametric
08:22:05 <elliott> kmc: why don't you tell edwardk
08:22:09 <kmc> he doesn't care
08:22:23 <elliott> i'll bug him about it more next time i see him
08:22:38 <elliott> probably the clarifi compiler has only parametric type constructors or something
08:22:42 <elliott> kmc: so how do you do the bug
08:22:52 <elliott> btw what the fuck is clarifi doing having their own fp language and compiler
08:22:55 <shachaf> elliott: You do the bug by doing /msg edwardk VOID IS BROKEN
08:23:20 <kmc> well, it assumes you can unsafely coerce a «f Void» to a «f a» because the container must be empty, so to speak
08:23:45 <shachaf> So you just declare a type family that's different on Void.
08:23:54 <elliott> coerce Foo Void to Foo Int
08:24:00 <elliott> kmc: i have this suspicion that type families are completely broken
08:24:23 <elliott> kmc: actually Foo does not quite work
08:24:28 <elliott> kmc: can a type family be Functor
08:24:37 <kmc> i did write an exploit for this
08:24:48 <kmc> http://hpaste.org/52660
08:24:49 <elliott> well how does it work since you can't do Functor
08:25:12 <kmc> data family, not type family
08:25:19 <elliott> kmc: it should do fmap `seq` unsafeCoerce
08:25:23 <shachaf> Why isn't there a newtype family. :-(
08:25:34 <elliott> kmc: really your code is broken because it disobeys functor laws
08:25:39 <kmc> elliott: *rolls eyes*
08:25:47 <elliott> kmc: well, memory corruption is a valid response to that, according to the report, iirc
08:25:51 <elliott> it's just not an ideal one
08:25:58 <elliott> kmc: the report explicitly allows compilers to assume e.g. the monad laws
08:26:06 <kmc> i request chapter and verse
08:26:20 <kmc> shachaf: you can do newtype instances of data families
08:26:23 <shachaf> Why isn't there a one-page version of the report?
08:26:35 <shachaf> I think I tried it once and it didn't work.
08:27:12 <lambdabot> SimonMarlow says: This is the largest program (in terms of memory requirements) I've ever seen anyone run using GHC. In fact there was no machine in our building capable of running it, I had to
08:27:13 <lambdabot> fire up the largest Amazon EC2 instance available (68GB) to debug it - this bug cost me $26.
08:28:10 <Deewiant_> (source: http://www.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/2010-June/079332.html )
08:29:43 <shachaf> elliott: Remember that one time you called Simon Marlow dumb?
08:30:12 <elliott> dwarf fortress, everybody: http://ompldr.org/vZWRyNw
08:30:21 <itidus21> is it stupid to run a program that no computer in the building can run?
08:30:48 <shachaf> BUT APPARENTLY ELLIOTT THINKS SO
08:31:09 <kmc> elliott: what
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08:31:22 <elliott> kmc: this is the interface for customising your surname in adventurer mode
08:35:05 <itidus21> mum walks into my room "heres a fork for ya. puts it on my plate." "uh thanks" "i used it to cut the sausage rolls [which she was eating separately]"
08:35:35 <shachaf> Maybe itidus21 is a surrealist humor bot.
08:36:02 -!- Gregor has set topic: Food is just pals you eat. Here's a fork for ya. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | This is what the bfjoust hill will look like under the new scoring system: http://sprunge.us/aSVX.
08:37:08 -!- ion has set topic: Food is just pals you eat. Here's a spork for ya. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | This is what the bfjoust hill will look like under the new scoring system: http://sprunge.us/aSVX.
08:37:15 <shachaf> http://i.imgur.com/0t8hu.jpg
08:37:32 <ion> shachaf: :-D
08:38:17 <shachaf> ion: http://www.reddit.com/user/JimKB/submitted/?sort=top
08:38:21 <Gregor> "It's pretty freaking arbitrary."
08:39:03 <itidus21> shachaf: very nice illustrations in that pic
08:39:55 <itidus21> i guess the fact that theres a website signature shows its a professional
08:41:24 * Gregor shoots elliott in the leg.
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08:44:29 <itidus21> my dad was into archery stuff. in his mind he was basically Link.. but in reality he was a depressed office clerk with a dysfunctional family! :-D
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08:47:16 <ion> elliott used to be a programmer but he took an arrow in the knee.
08:48:26 <fizzie> It's a well-known fact you can't program without good knees.
08:49:05 <shachaf> fizzie: Seriously. Kick me.
08:49:27 <shachaf> ion: Did elliott really use to be a programmer?
08:49:29 <fizzie> Why is it always like this? Can't you people, I don't know, join #esoteric-kick and then kick yourself?
08:52:18 <Gregor> Getting ahead in the real world of programming DOES involve an awful lot of time on your knees.
08:54:02 <itidus21> shachaf: believe it or not even i used to actually edit, compile and execute software using programming languages once upon a time.
08:54:43 <kmc> i used to be a programmer
08:54:49 <kmc> i still am, but i used to, too
08:55:09 <fizzie> Programmers are really on another level compared to amateur grammers.
08:55:10 <elliott> a mitch hedberg quote, you could get like 500 reddit karma for that!
08:55:39 <kmc> i'll take my reddit karma in the form of cash money
08:55:45 <kmc> what's the exchange rate
08:56:53 <itidus21> kmc: it's a negative exchange rate at the moment
08:57:01 <kmc> shiiiiiii-
08:57:08 <elliott> kmc: 10,000 buys you [derisive item]
08:57:30 <itidus21> is it actually possible for negative exchange rates to happen?
08:57:38 <elliott> good thing i only have 1834
08:59:07 <Gregor> If that was possible, you could manufacture money X_X
08:59:26 <Gregor> "Please give me 200 AUD and 800 CAD. kthxbai"
08:59:47 <elliott> Gregor: after a while either you start hating yourself too much to farm reddit karma for money
09:00:02 <elliott> Gregor: or you start doing it non-ironically, and you're *one of them*, you become god-emperor of the universe
09:00:09 <elliott> and the apocalypse begins in earnest
09:00:12 <shachaf> kmc: Have you had any exciting 5-HT_2A adventures since the last one?
09:00:24 <shachaf> I guess the answer is tautologically "no".
09:00:29 <elliott> kmc: what about some 89234-QjicJ)@(#90t adventures
09:01:02 <Sgeo> When did nVidia stop being the better manufacturer for graphics cards for Linux?
09:01:03 <shachaf> elliott: If you're going to make up names to kmc, you have to know how to do it.
09:01:09 <shachaf> Step 1: base64 /dev/urandom
09:01:16 <Sgeo> I remember hearing that ATI sucks on Linux and nVidia doesn't. What happened?
09:01:22 <kmc> nice tautology bro
09:01:28 <shachaf> Sgeo: It goes back and forth every few years.
09:01:45 <calamari> we talking closed source drivers?
09:01:53 <kmc> i took some 4-AcO-DMT a few months ago but it was a low dose and nothing much happened
09:01:56 <kmc> haven't taken any since then
09:02:14 <kmc> elliott: you could at least pick actual obscure phenethylamines or tryptamines
09:02:16 <kmc> http://www.erowid.org/library/books_online/pihkal/pihkal.shtml
09:02:21 <kmc> http://www.erowid.org/library/books_online/tihkal/tihkal.shtml
09:02:38 <shachaf> kmc: Wow, is that drug even illegal?
09:02:55 <elliott> kmc: have you done any "5,6-MDO-MIPT" (as they call it in the streets) lately
09:03:06 <elliott> fizzie: btw i think you're technically guidelines-obligated to stop us talking about this
09:03:14 <kmc> shachaf: 4-AcO-DMT? "O-Acetylpsilocin is unscheduled in the United States. It may be considered an analog of psilocin, which is a Schedule I drug under the Controlled Substances Act of the USA"
09:03:30 <shachaf> Does that mean it's not a thoughtcrime to consider it?
09:03:31 <kmc> elliott: no
09:03:44 <kmc> most of these have only been taken by like 5 people
09:03:44 <elliott> QUALITATIVE COMMENTS : (with 35 mgs, orally) "Some paresthesia noted. Nothing else."
09:03:44 <elliott> (with 50 mgs, orally) "Maybe a trace of activity after an hour. Certainly nothing at three hours."
09:03:44 <elliott> (with 60 mgs, orally) "There is something going on there, but I can't tell what it is. Very vague."
09:03:44 <elliott> (with 75 mgs, orally) "Just a teasing smell of light-headedness in twenty minutes, and maybe a bit more light-headedness in an hour. I can suspect the chronology, but the character of the effects remains nebulous. It is certainly less dramatic than the 5-methoxy-compound."
09:03:55 <calamari> shachaf: might mean that it hasn't been tested in court?
09:04:13 <kmc> elliott: i did take regular old MiPT though
09:04:33 <kmc> it's kind of weird that the nomenclature in this field is just what shulgin made up for his lab notebooks
09:04:39 <elliott> kmc: shulgin is kind of mad right
09:04:47 <fizzie> "As a legal entity, PDPC cannot condone or support behavior which is clearly unlawful. While PDPC does not have the resources to closely monitor the thousands of channels on the network, its staff and volunteers are required by policy to pass on credible information, provided by you as a network participant, about unlawful activities." I'm not staff, and I don't think I'm much of a volunteer ...
09:05:02 <kmc> elliott: i don't know really
09:05:04 <fizzie> We are a publicly logged channel, though.
09:05:19 <elliott> kmc: not necessarily in a bad way!
09:05:25 <kmc> he's really old now
09:05:33 <shachaf> elliott: i heard that u kind of mad
09:05:34 <itidus21> i made a mad post on some forum.. i got ip banned
09:06:01 <Sgeo> I've been banned from places
09:06:21 <itidus21> it was an appropriate ban. the things i said were very improper
09:06:34 <elliott> how about some of that GANESHA
09:07:00 <kmc> haven't tried
09:07:07 <elliott> [[QUALITATIVE COMMENTS: (with 25 mg) Vague awareness, with the feeling of an impending something. Light food sat uncomfortably. By the late afternoon there was absolutely nothing. Threshold at best. ]]
09:07:21 <calamari> I got b& for posting ponies on /b/, does that count?
09:07:26 <kmc> look somebody has to take all the shitty drugs all right
09:07:28 <elliott> what i'm learning is that most of drugs suck
09:07:30 <kmc> that somebody is not me
09:07:42 <kmc> if you make random chemical alterations to existing drugs you mainly get worse versions of those drugs
09:08:01 <itidus21> they should just teach people that math is like drugs
09:08:07 <shachaf> Is it a semilattice at least?
09:08:15 <kmc> itidus21: we had a saying, that the world is divided into math, drugs, and cardboard
09:08:57 <elliott> kmc: these synthesis instructions are amazing
09:09:09 <kmc> yeah only half of PiHKAL is online
09:09:17 <elliott> what! what's the other half
09:09:24 <itidus21> basically, mainstream math is too arithmetic oriented
09:09:26 <kmc> the part that's online is the synthesis instructions and experience reports
09:09:36 <itidus21> by mainstream i mean the crap people like me know
09:09:48 <kmc> the first part of the book is a lightly fictionalized account of shulgin's life and his wife's
09:10:04 <kmc> they talk about sex a lot
09:10:12 <kmc> (counterexample)
09:10:21 <elliott> i noticed a lot of description of erotic thoughts in the experience reports!
09:10:31 <kmc> so yeah if you want to read about how she wanted to get into his pants because he's the master of the cosmos
09:10:34 <kmc> then read this book
09:10:53 <kmc> also him trolling the government
09:10:55 <elliott> [[QUALITATIVE COMMENTS: (with 50 mg) At about the two hour point, there was a precipitous drop of blood pressure (from 120/72 to 84/68) although the pulse stayed steady at 60. This trend had been apparent in earlier trials, and was being watched carefully. No further tests are planned. ]]
09:11:06 <kmc> sounds like a party
09:11:09 <fizzie> elliott: Re fake names, here's 50 names generated with a character 4-gram for you: http://sprunge.us/gdUH (Disclaimer: a couple of them might be accidentally real.)
09:11:23 <fizzie> 3eO-4-7S-DIPGAMMD5-MA-3-TOM sounds impressive, for example.
09:11:41 <kmc> haha fizzie++
09:11:42 <shachaf> fizzie: Now generate complexity classes!
09:11:56 <kmc> yes 2C-T-17 is real
09:12:04 <elliott> kmc: if 3eO-4-7S-DIPGAMMD5-MA-3-TOM was real what would it be
09:12:23 <kmc> a hell of a drug
09:12:31 <fizzie> elliott: Maybe you should take some "3". Or some "T".
09:12:41 <kmc> 4-MeO-DMT is real too
09:12:46 <elliott> fizzie: http://www.erowid.org/library/books_online/tihkal/tihkal53.shtml t is rael sory
09:13:15 <shachaf> kmc: is there a drug that will make me feel super sleep deprived
09:13:25 <kmc> i don't know of one
09:13:56 <shachaf> <monqy> help my left arm died for no reason
09:14:21 <fizzie> `words --tihkal --pihkal 10
09:14:24 <HackEgo> Unknown option: tihkal \ Unknown option: pihkal
09:14:31 <shachaf> kmc: what's the best LEGAL psychedelic
09:14:36 <fizzie> `run words --finnish 10 # same thing?
09:14:40 <HackEgo> sintuntenevinä intävämpämme kirjoavallensa yksistointämälle pommeerapistä laanjohtamia iinnostamila syvälttamme pysteli hakentävänä
09:14:54 <kmc> shachaf: i quite like 2C-E
09:15:09 <elliott> liptamine irco-fenasophanicue-2etryl
09:15:19 <kmc> also 4-AcO-DMT is supposed to be the same as psilocybin mushrooms, which are pretty well understood and liked
09:15:51 <shachaf> These are all analogues or something. :-(
09:16:02 <shachaf> I want a drug for the digital age.
09:16:02 <fizzie> I herd you can get high if you smoke banana peels.
09:16:06 <kmc> if you want something that's not an analogue, that would be harder
09:16:25 <elliott> kmc: what common household objects have you inhaled
09:16:38 <elliott> i have my "boring" response lined up if the response is "none"
09:16:44 <kmc> salvinorin A is not scheduled in the USA (federally)
09:16:52 <shachaf> As far as safety goes I imagine you're better off finding something reasonably well-understood and illegal than something not understood and legal.
09:16:53 <kmc> but i would hesitate to call it "best" anything
09:16:58 <kmc> shachaf: indeed
09:17:11 <kmc> shachaf: LSD and mushrooms would top that list
09:17:20 <elliott> methyl (2S,4aR,6aR,7R,9S,10aS,10bR)-9-(acetyloxy)-2-(furan-3-yl)-6a,10b-dimethyl-4,10-dioxododecahydro-2H-benzo[f]isochromene-7-carboxylate
09:17:32 <kmc> basically, government bans the safe, fun drugs so that people have to take the more dangerous counterparts
09:17:40 <kmc> (they also ban the really dangerous drugs, and then obfuscate the difference)
09:17:41 <shachaf> I didn't think they made that illegal yet. :-(
09:18:01 <kmc> elliott: yes, it's the active ingredient in salvia
09:18:07 <kmc> it's utterly unlike anything else
09:18:12 <kmc> chemically, pharmacologically, or experientially
09:18:19 <kmc> salvia is fucking terrifying though
09:18:27 <kmc> it's nothing like the beloved 5HT agonists
09:18:45 <kmc> well it's a little like 5-MeO-DMT perhaps
09:19:00 <elliott> all i know about it is you sink through sofas or something and animal collective like it
09:19:02 <kmc> salvia is crazytimes
09:19:06 <elliott> maybe i'm mixing them up :(
09:19:12 <elliott> i don't want to sink through my sofa
09:19:21 <elliott> i like solid things being solid usually
09:19:26 <Lumpio-> People who can't have fun without messing up their consciousness with chemicals fail
09:19:26 <kmc> or like the sofa splits open at the back and becomes a kaleidoscope
09:19:33 <kmc> Lumpio-: nice strawman bro
09:19:56 <Lumpio-> I think calling strawman is a strawman in itself these days
09:20:03 <kmc> i think you don't know what a strawman is
09:20:20 <elliott> chemicals mess up thinking because they're artificial and that's why you should have no chemicals in your brain
09:20:27 <Lumpio-> Of course I do. Doesn't mean I always use it correctly
09:20:27 <ion> lumpio: Are there some people here who you know to be unable to have fun without substances?
09:20:48 <ion> lumpio: I assume there are because otherwise that comment would be rather unnecessary.
09:21:15 <shachaf> ion: I'm unable to have fun wihtout substances!
09:21:20 <kmc> i'm with shachaf here
09:21:38 <elliott> tbh it sounds like all your aims are hecked
09:21:41 <kmc> <shachaf> ion: I'm unable to have fun wihtout substances!
09:21:46 <fizzie> shachaf: I think it's like that "I'm with stupid" shirt. Oh, it wasn't.
09:21:48 <kmc> http://www.toothpastefordinner.com/013111/serotonin-and-dopamine.gif
09:21:57 <kmc> they're so cute :3
09:22:15 <shachaf> kmc: is it ok if i hate on people who use the word technically :'(
09:22:16 <kmc> can i buy a plush serotonin molecule yet?
09:22:24 <kmc> it could be friends with my sharkbanana
09:22:35 <elliott> shachaf: technically it's not
09:22:44 <kmc> maybe i should make one!
09:22:49 <shachaf> I can't stand the feel of velvet.
09:22:59 <shachaf> I think I can't stand the feel of plush either, assuming I know what plush is.
09:23:04 <ion> I can’t stand the feel of shachaf.
09:23:55 <kmc> the hairs on plush are longer aiui
09:24:27 <shachaf> I don't know why people make those things.
09:24:31 <kmc> you don't like sharkbanana :(
09:24:48 <shachaf> I'm sure sharkbanana is beautiful on the inside.
09:25:54 <shachaf> Well, I thought it was when I read it many years ago.
09:25:59 <shachaf> I think my age was single-digital.
09:26:27 <shachaf> Anyway, I ordered it again in order to read it again.
09:27:49 <shachaf> kmc: Where do endorphins go in the serotonin-dopamine thing?
09:29:10 <HackEgo> 2010-06-04.txt:22:41:13: <Sgeo> Erm, that doesn't technically describe Alaska, does it
09:29:24 <HackEgo> 2008-07-27.txt:21:52:05: <tusho> well, technically it doesn't
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09:29:44 <HackEgo> 2010-03-05.txt:21:30:26: <AnMaster> cpressey, and glass harmonica is *technically* impressive
09:30:01 <HackEgo> 2009-10-15.txt:12:43:21: <ehird> 9.9, technically.
09:31:20 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.24600
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11:10:10 <itidus21> here's to pretending today will be a good day for all
11:11:40 <itidus21> and also to the fact that programming simply isn't a performance art (yet)
11:12:05 <itidus21> if playing crawl and df can be performace art, then it's only a matter of time
11:12:12 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Live_coding
11:13:47 <elliott> kmc: livecoding is awesome, have you seen yaxu's stuff?
11:13:53 <elliott> he's done haskell music livecoding
11:14:14 <ion> URL please.
11:17:05 <itidus21> if i'm wrong, then i guess everything else is right in the world
11:18:37 <itidus21> it's an instance of conservation of ninjutsu
11:21:55 <ion> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Video_presentations#Livecoding_Haskell
11:22:11 <itidus21> if i was better at math i like to think i could write a fancy inverse kinematic animation engine
11:22:31 <fizzie> Man, this latest step of this law thing is so much the best thing, I think it needs to go in our logs too, despite probably already making the rounds; I always hear these things last.
11:22:36 <fizzie> "On Friday, June 15, 2012, attorney Charles Carreon passed from mundane short-term internet notoriety into a sort of legal cartoon-supervillainy.
11:22:39 <fizzie> He transcended typical internet infamy when he filed a federal lawsuit last Friday in the United Sates District Court for the Northern District of California in Oakland. He belonged to the ages the moment he filed that lawsuit not only against Matthew Inman, proprietor of The Oatmeal, but also against IndieGoGo Inc., the company that hosted Inman's ridiculously effective fundraiser for the ...
11:22:45 <fizzie> ... National Wildlife Federation and the American Cancer Society.
11:22:48 <fizzie> But that level of censorious litigiousness was not enough for Charles Carreon. He sought something more. And so, on that same Friday, Charles Carreon also sued the National Wildlife Federation and the American Cancer Society, the beneficiaries of Matthew Inman's fundraiser.
11:22:52 <fizzie> Yes. Charles Carreon, butthurt that someone had leveraged his douchebaggery into almost two hundred thousand dollars of donations to two worthy charities, sued the charities."
11:22:55 <fizzie> http://www.popehat.com/2012/06/17/the-oatmeal-v-funnyjunk-part-iv-charles-carreon-sues-everybody/
11:23:35 <elliott> See e.g. http://blip.tv/piksel/piksel10-slub-alex-mclean-dave-griffiths-4540027 for some video.
11:23:42 <elliott> Quite catchy 37 minutes in!
11:24:17 <elliott> http://www.flickr.com/photos/lovebytes/6882856456/ too many strings!
11:24:43 <itidus21> fizzie: http://lh5.ggpht.com/_jLmX_8LH3uo/TcF-geBS48I/AAAAAAAAIc0/8yGzBQnRnYk/American%20Patriot%20Flag%20Wallpaper%5B4%5D.jpg
11:25:49 <fizzie> I think there was a livecode thing at altparty once.
11:26:01 <fizzie> Yes, the 2010 iteration. "Dave Griffiths was raised on an early education in weaving, bell ringing and 8bit computers. He performs improvised livecoded techno music using text, visual programming, and hand made game engines."
11:26:13 <itidus21> Oh, say, can you see, by the dawn's early light, what so proudly we hailed at the twilight's last gleaming?
11:26:23 <fizzie> I don't know the guy, but I vaguelly recall it was kinda funky.
11:26:38 <fizzie> http://www.altparty.org/2010/info/music.html#davegriffiths I remember those rectangular things.
11:26:48 <fizzie> Don't know what thing it is.
11:27:30 <elliott> fizzie: He's part of the same group thing.
11:27:38 <elliott> fizzie: The squares are nesting or such.
11:27:46 <elliott> yaxu has a thing that has a bunch of nodes connected in a graph.
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11:34:35 <itidus21> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Esoteric_programming_language&diff=prev&oldid=416289296
11:36:40 <fizzie> Ooh, what a shameless act of self-plugging.
11:53:15 <ion> elliott: Thankes
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12:07:38 <ion> OHP Mega Demo 9000 - TRSI & DES!RE - @Party 2012 http://youtu.be/LCIsIfEOEI8
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13:07:02 <fizzie> What foolishness is this. If I type in "esolang.org", there's a grey text at the right saying "Press [Tab] to search Esolang (en)", and then it magically goes to Special:Search if I do that. Witchcraft!
13:10:19 <fizzie> <link rel="search" type="application/opensearchdescription+xml" href="/w/opensearch_desc.php" title="Esolang (en)" /> LOOKS LIKE BLACK MAGIC TO ME
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13:18:33 <elliott> fizzie: remember when mooz played slaves to armok
13:18:39 <elliott> fizzie: monqy's IVAN experience is reminding me of it
13:18:50 <fizzie> http://www.canlii.com/en/ab/abca/doc/2012/2012abca134/2012abca134.html "At about 2:00 a.m. on December 6, 2009, an Edmonton police officer noticed a Jeep leaving the parking lot of a drinking establishment with its lights out. He decided to follow it. As he did, he observed the vehicle drive through three stop signs without attempting to brake. -- The Jeep was brought to a stop. Immediately, ...
13:18:56 <fizzie> ... the respondent emerged from the driver’s seat of the Jeep and approached the police car declaring: “I’m sorry, I’m sorry, I’m so fucked.” As will be seen from our disposition of this appeal, that was a prophetic statement." And they say courts have no sense of humour.
13:19:17 <fizzie> And yes, I do remember such a thing.
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13:29:27 <fizzie> Also, a computer: http://hs13.snstatic.fi/webkuva/taysi/960/1305575177673?ts=473 (It's a render of that new IBM Sequoia that just made the top of that TOP500 supercomputer list.)
13:29:35 <fizzie> I wonder if they actually have as polished floors.
13:30:30 <fizzie> Yeah, an actual photo: http://www.top500.org/files/Sequoia_small.jpg
13:31:14 <fizzie> (Are those "caution: slippery floor" cones in the back?)
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14:21:14 <elliott> @ask monqy i died in the tutorial
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15:05:26 <elliott> hi Phantom_Hoover oijd oih oqiwjwoti joewt jrjr
15:06:57 <ion> lambdabot should have said “Error: that is not a question.”
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15:57:39 <Taneb> I can connect to the internet in my bedroom
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16:03:55 <Vorpal> I was just looking through the CD with drivers that came with the mobo. I was trying to find some documentation wrt wake-on-lan. I didn't find that, but I found a lot of unusual stuff. Such as IA64 drivers for the ethernet. And Linux drivers for something called Intel AMT.
16:04:04 <Vorpal> also a lot of EFI-related stuff
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16:17:16 <Vorpal> Taneb, connection issues?
16:17:24 <Vorpal> from here that looked fine
16:17:48 <Vorpal> iirc lambdabot does some sort of fuzzy matching of commands?
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16:23:38 <Vorpal> I love this BIOS changelog. For each of the 10 versions it lists it just says : "Improve system stability. Improve memory compatibility. Support new CPUs."
16:27:08 <Vorpal> I'm curious as to how each of the 10 releases can improve system stability
16:27:57 <elliott> it probably means "fixed bug"
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16:29:54 <Vorpal> I was looking through to see if a specific issue I had was fixed. As it is only a minor issue (PS2 keyboard doesn't work under windows from cold boot, works fine when rebooting from linux or rebooting from windows after the keyboard was made to work by first rebooting from linux) I'm not going to bother though.
16:30:17 <elliott> Vorpal: You should play IVAN.
16:30:22 <elliott> If you like limbs falling off for no reason.
16:30:38 <Vorpal> also you just described happy wheels :P
16:31:03 <elliott> Vorpal: It's... a roguelike. Of sorts.
16:31:24 <elliott> It's horribly unfair and each of your individual limbs get their own damage (DF-style) and can fall off.
16:31:41 <elliott> And you can pray to one of the gods to get, e.g. a metal replacement for it!
16:32:13 <elliott> Also the name is Latin for "a violent road to death".
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16:32:48 <elliott> Vorpal: Representative message:
16:33:31 <elliott> Jun 18 08:59:22 <elliott> 14:21 You stab the kobold! You advance to skill level 2 with polearms! You
16:33:32 <elliott> Jun 18 08:59:22 <elliott> advance to skill level 5 with your balsa spear covered with different
16:33:32 <elliott> Jun 18 08:59:22 <elliott> types of blood! The kobold dies yelling like a tortured hyena.
16:33:41 <elliott> Jun 18 09:02:42 <monqy> 15:03 The zombie hits you! You manage to block the attack with your bone! You advance to skill level 3 with your bone! The zombie hits you! You manage to partially block the attack with your bone! You advance to skill level 1 with blunt weapons! You advance to skill level 4 with your bone!
16:34:04 <Vorpal> seems like the progression is rapid?
16:34:07 <elliott> 14:52 You slash the zombie in the head! Its head is severed off!
16:34:08 <elliott> 14:52 The zombie takes a severed head of a zombie and attaches it to its torso.
16:34:31 <elliott> Jun 18 09:48:03 <elliott> 15:13 You feel very ill. Your right leg drops to the ground.
16:34:31 <elliott> Jun 18 09:48:09 <monqy> oops i guess bad things happened
16:34:31 <elliott> Jun 18 09:48:33 <monqy> 15:13 You begin drinking the bottle full of healing liquid.
16:34:31 <elliott> Jun 18 09:48:33 <monqy> 15:13 You grow a new right leg.
16:34:31 <elliott> Jun 18 09:48:33 <monqy> 15:13 You feel better.
16:34:50 <elliott> Wait I forgot the best one.
16:34:52 <elliott> 12:48 The levitating ostrich cackles cheerfully. It likes its life.
16:34:57 <ion> I’m stuck in Thief. :-(
16:34:59 <Vorpal> elliott, hey can't you reattach limbs like the zombies?
16:35:20 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, you can pick up (and also eat) your severed limbs. Before eating it says "hey, you could reattach that, are you sure?".
16:35:26 <elliott> I think sometimes praying to one of the gods will reattach it for you.
16:35:52 <elliott> There's also carnivorous mutant bunnies.
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17:35:44 <MDude> http://images.4chan.org/co/src/1340009252555.jpg
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18:27:02 <ion> THE MARMALADE Identity: Behind the scenes (Super Slow Motion Effects That Look CGI) http://youtu.be/cKC6j7pW6T0
18:33:35 <shachaf> kmc: So the other day someone in #haskell was asking about some of the weird behavior of regex-compat. The response was "just write your own regexp library in pure Haskell".
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18:36:14 <fizzie> Let's say June 11th, 1908.
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18:36:28 <fizzie> I think I got it wrong.
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19:34:02 <shachaf> better nate than dames !!!!!!!
19:35:25 <shachaf> oerjan: http://forums.kingdomofloathing.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1704611&postcount=96
19:36:39 * oerjan smells a not very pretty dog story
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19:53:33 <nortti> http://pics.kuvaton.com/kuvei/month_day_year_america_failure.jpg
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20:30:35 <kmc> shachaf: it is trivial
20:35:19 <Sgeo> There's a typo in the "Longest Joke in the World" thing
20:35:22 <Sgeo> "If would be the perfect image, he imagines"
20:35:29 <Sgeo> (My gf found it)
20:35:59 * Phantom_Hoover chooses to interpret this as Sgeo using his girlfriend as a spellcheck.
20:37:20 <itidus21> it took me more than 3 seconds to spot that typo when staring at the sentence
20:37:34 * oerjan chooses to interpret this as Sgeo using his spellcheck as a girlfriend.
20:38:36 <Phantom_Hoover> (Not to say your spellcheck is fat, Sgeo, it could just lose a stone or two.)
20:39:17 <oerjan> google sez "1 stone = 6.35029318 kilograms"
20:40:29 <Phantom_Hoover> ALTHOUGH according to the 1772 Encyclopaedia Britannica a stone of beef was in Scotland 16lb.
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20:45:10 <oerjan> those who live in beef houses should not lose stones
20:48:07 <Vorpal> oerjan, why not? The house is made of beef not stone. Loosing a stone would be a non-issue. Unlike if you lived in a stone house. ;P
20:48:45 <Vorpal> eating your house? Disgusting. Also the beef would go bad very quickly anyway.
20:48:52 <Vorpal> unless it was frozen I guess
20:49:25 <Vorpal> I would strongly advise against using beef as a building material.
20:52:35 <Vorpal> (now really good night)
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20:53:41 <oerjan> except with more letters
20:56:27 <Taneb> zzo38, what's the point of Prelude.Generalize.(++) when there's Control.Applicative.(<|>)?
21:05:09 <Taneb> Can I ask you Haskell questions?
21:05:43 <zzo38> Taneb: Just because of the stupid way the classes are designed, you might need to use it in something that has only MonadPlus as constraint; also, (++) is specialized. Ideally it shouldn't be needed for that purpose, but there it is
21:06:57 <Taneb> I don't really have any maths questions atm
21:07:05 <Taneb> I only had one Haskell question
21:07:12 <Taneb> Ooh, here's another one!
21:07:20 <oerjan> well it was one only zzo38 could answer...
21:07:27 <Taneb> Is there such thing as a ComonadPlus
21:07:49 <oerjan> ...also sounds like zzo38's thing :P
21:08:19 <Taneb> When I'm older, I want to be like zzo38, except British, Australian, and easier to understand.
21:08:22 <Taneb> Also richer and cooler
21:08:32 <oerjan> british _and_ australian?
21:08:45 <Taneb> (already achieved)
21:09:03 <zzo38> Taneb: I don't know if there is any such things as ComonadPlus, although Comonad and Alternative are mutually exclusive.
21:09:16 <oerjan> Taneb: you should have 3 mansions, one in each hexham :P
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21:09:24 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm told I could have a dual Irish nationality despite the fact that none of my ancestors have ever lived in the ROI.
21:09:35 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, were you born in NI?
21:09:48 <Taneb> Well, that's me out of ideas
21:09:54 <zzo38> It is possible for something to be both Comonad and Monad, but not to be both Comonad and Alternative.
21:10:02 <Phantom_Hoover> And in any case that'd qualify me for a British passport, not an Irish one.
21:10:16 <Taneb> oerjan, aww, come on. One Hexham's tiny and another's in New South Wales
21:10:33 <oerjan> what's wrong with new south wales, dmm is there
21:10:52 <Taneb> I'm a Victoria person
21:11:10 <zzo38> It is not difficult.
21:11:16 <Phantom_Hoover> (It's because my grandfather was born before the ROI was founded so he qualifies for Irish citizenship, and for some reason if any grandparent qualifies for Irish citizenship so do you.)
21:12:22 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i'd assume he needs to be from Ireland, too?
21:12:41 <oerjan> (presumably NI in this case)
21:13:02 <Taneb> You know, only one of my grandparents was born in any country I hold a nationality for
21:14:52 <oerjan> were any of them dutch or is that further back
21:14:58 <Taneb> Two of them were dutch
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21:15:41 <Taneb> Great swathes of that bit of the Netherlands emigrated to Australia in the 50's
21:16:33 <Taneb> Well, the van Doorns, the Wolswinkels, and the van Ecks did
21:17:15 <Taneb> That's the wrong word, isn't it?
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21:18:17 <Taneb> s/Great swaths of/Quite a lot of people from/
21:19:38 <Taneb> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_netherlands#Flooding_and_flood_control
21:19:45 <Taneb> Because of that, I think
21:20:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Anything specific or just because it's, well, the Netherlands?
21:20:31 <oerjan> "darn, flood again, let's move to somewhere drier!"
21:20:45 <Taneb> Victoria is the best state
21:20:56 <Taneb> Much better than Queensland and California
21:20:57 <oerjan> "i hear australia is the driest continent, let's go there!"
21:21:47 <Taneb> Well, these people were from a pretty rural area. Most of them depended on farming
21:22:00 <Taneb> When the fields flooded, crops were wiped out and livestock drowned
21:26:20 <Taneb> So they gave up and went to the land were there was fire instead of water
21:27:09 <Taneb> itidus21, remember Black Saturday?
21:27:24 <Taneb> The last time I went to Australia, I got there on the Sunday
21:28:00 <itidus21> well didn't affect me directly.. but i do remember something about fires or floods
21:28:09 <Taneb> Floods were in Queensland
21:28:14 <Taneb> Fire was in Victoria
21:28:22 <Taneb> Couple of relative's farms got burnt
21:29:40 <Taneb> Well, goodnight, everyone
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21:29:47 <zzo38> There is Victoria in Canada too
21:34:44 <zzo38> Does this seem a reasonable way to you for parsing a note letter? send_note(ch,channels[ch].transpose+(channels[ch].octave+(c<scale_base))*12+note_letter[c-'a'],0,&s);
21:35:21 <zzo38> (Sharps, flats, length override, are handled by the send_note subroutine)
21:37:59 <zzo38> (The variable scale_base has a default value of 'c' although it can be changed; note_letter is a constant array holding { -3,-1, 0, 2, 4, 5, 7 })
21:41:23 <oerjan> well it looks reasonable, but i wouldn't promise it correct without testing
21:41:40 <zzo38> I may later on, add the feature to adjust the note_letter array too, though, such as if you want to use a scale other than 12-TET and that stuff
21:43:23 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes of course when I write enough of the program I will test it. The note numbers here are for the .IT format where C0 is represented by 0. And as far as I know, no other program has this "scale_base" feature; but maybe you know of some
21:44:05 <oerjan> i don't know any music programs
21:45:52 <zzo38> But how would you design it if you did design a music program?
21:55:51 <zzo38> What I should try to think of is how to internally store the channel row data (using effect frames).
21:56:08 <zzo38> Since it has to do so for each channel individually
22:04:17 <zzo38> Is there any things in the .IT file that may need to be adjusted for compatibility with certain players, and if so, should the Cwt field have a default value for each one?
22:06:32 <nooga> i've tried to implement lisp out of boredom
22:06:48 <nooga> and (eval '(+ 1 2)) returns (+ 1 2)
22:09:25 <oerjan> nooga: my guess is that when you evaluate (eval '(+ 1 2)), you don't evaluate the argument before passing it to eval?
22:12:52 <nortti> so what features does it have?
22:14:54 <nortti> I have created one. it could execute subset of scheme
22:15:18 <nortti> and yes. I named it lis.py just because
22:15:50 <nortti> eval, +, -, *, /, define, lambda, if, car, cdr, cons
22:17:01 <nortti> actually no quote word. just '
22:17:12 <nooga> ' is a reader macro
22:18:08 <nooga> also: and, or, cond, case, %
22:18:28 <nooga> and that'd be it.. there - complete programming system
22:19:23 <nortti> I didn't have those but I could implement them if I am going to rewrite lis.py
22:19:47 <nortti> (I don't want to look at that code again. it is in functional python)
22:22:08 <nooga> i need a pretty printer and (trace)
22:23:31 <nortti> also some kind of display or read would be nice if you are going to use it for something
22:24:02 <nortti> is your lisp variant closer to scheme or cl or something else?
22:27:24 <nooga> i think it's accidentaly closer to cl
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22:35:19 <nortti> (define (map function list) (if (null? list) () (cons (function (car list)) (map function (cdr list)))))
22:35:22 <nortti> (define (filter function list) (if (null? list) () (if (function (car list)) (cons (car list) (filter function (cdr list))) (filter function (cdr list)))))
22:35:25 <nortti> (define (reduce function list) (if (null? list) () (if (null? (cdr list)) list (reduce function (cons (function (car list) (car (cdr list))) (cdr (cdr list)))))))
22:35:45 <ion> http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5pq4hZcQ31r3ddn8o1_500.jpg
22:37:35 <shachaf> ion: How would you feel if I' say' used '\'' to approximate ,?
22:40:50 <nooga> http://pastie.org/4111194
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22:52:03 <oerjan> @quote blood everywhere
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22:52:04 <lambdabot> No quotes for this person. Are you on drugs?
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22:52:13 <lambdabot> malig says: I have to admit I'm still stunned when "tying the knot" actually works. it's like I just performed the kind of magic that normally requires a lot more goat's blood
22:52:25 <lambdabot> edwardkmett says: Most monad tutorials are written by people who barely understand monads, if at all, but unfortunately nothing can stop someone from writing a monad tutorial. We've tried, there was
22:53:10 <ion> shachaf: I wholeheartedly encourage you to always do that from now on.
22:53:21 <shachaf> ion: What' the comma thing?
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22:53:46 <oerjan> it,s a very lofty thing' isn,t it
22:54:12 <ion> shachaf: Yes̛°
22:54:52 <shachaf> oerjan: Hey now' we're trying to represent *more and more* characters using ASCII '\''!
22:55:17 <nooga> nortti: i've tried your reduce
22:56:08 <oerjan> i think the lone list should be (car list)
22:56:14 <nooga> and I get (reduce + '(1 2 3)) => (6)
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23:10:49 <nortti_> (define (reduce function list) (if (null? list) () (if (null? (cdr list)) (car list) (reduce function (cons (function (car list) (car (cdr list))) (cdr (cdr list)))))))
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23:15:46 <nooga> i've got readline with completion in my repl
23:16:55 <nortti_> is the repl written in lisp or in ruby?
23:19:00 <nortti_> I think repl in my lis.py was written in lisp but I am not completely sure
23:20:48 <nooga> is it this one: http://norvig.com/lis.py ?
23:21:33 <nortti_> no. I have not my lis.py anywhere. it just has same name
23:24:36 <oerjan> in which nortti_ is revealed as being Peter Norvig
23:25:21 <nortti_> no. mt firsr name is Juhani and my second nane starts with H
23:33:20 <nooga> who's peter norvig anyway
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02:14:02 <quintopia> get ready for the most amazingly tiny marginal score improvement you've ever seen!
02:14:10 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/HABh
02:14:20 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 58.0
02:15:13 <quintopia> lol. okay. that's a lowering of score. but it's an improvement according to quintopia_scoring_system so it stays :P
02:15:40 <oerjan> i thought i'd seen sixty-something
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02:41:13 <quintopia> oerjan: it was at 58.3 before that change. it's not much of a loss.
02:41:36 <quintopia> (it dropped below 60 when brachiation started beating it)
02:42:24 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/NWIE
02:42:27 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 58.7
02:42:44 <quintopia> hmm. that worked better than expected.
02:55:25 <quintopia> this one is apparently for pippa fans:
02:55:32 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/PiPa
02:55:35 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 60.2
03:04:06 -!- quintopia has set topic: Food is just pals you eat. Here's a spork for ya. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | This is what the bfjoust hill will look like under the new scoring system: http://sprunge.us/dUBN.
03:11:39 <quintopia> !bfjoust brachiation >->(-)*5(>)*4(>[(<)*3(-)*7<<(+[<{}])%28>(-)*50<(-)*50<(-)*10>>(>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](+)*50)*3 (>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](-)*50)*2(>)*7 (>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*22]++)*24
03:11:42 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_brachiation: 46.8
03:11:52 <quintopia> !bfjoust brachiation >->(-)*5(>)*4(>[(<)*3(+)*7<<(+[<{}])%28>(-)*50<(-)*50<(-)*10>>(>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](+)*50)*3 (>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](-)*50)*2(>)*7 (>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*22]++)*24
03:11:55 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_brachiation: 47.3
03:14:15 <quintopia> !bfjoust brachiation >->(-)*5(>)*4(>[(<)*3(+)*7<<(+[<{}])%28>(-)*50<(-)*50<(-)*10>>(>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(+)*5([-{[(-)*25[+]]}[-]])%10[+]][-][+])*27](+)*50)*3 (>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(+)*5([-{[(-)*25[+]]}[-]])%10[+]][-][+])*27](-)*50)*2(>)*7 (>[(+)*5([-{[(-)*25[+]]}[-]])%10[+]][-][+])*22]++)*24
03:14:18 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_brachiation: 46.2
03:14:53 <quintopia> !bfjoust brachiation >->(-)*5(>)*4(>[(<)*3(+)*7<<(+[<{}])%28>(-)*50<(-)*50<(-)*10>>(>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](+)*50)*3 (>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](-)*50)*2(>)*7 (>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*22]++)*24
03:14:56 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_brachiation: 47.3
03:15:22 <quintopia> !bfjoust brachiation >->(-)*5(>)*4(>[(<)*3(-)*7<<(+[<{}])%28>(-)*50<(-)*50<(-)*10>>(>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](+)*50)*3 (>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](-)*50)*2(>)*7 (>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*22]-)*24
03:15:25 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_brachiation: 25.3
03:15:29 <quintopia> !bfjoust brachiation >->(-)*5(>)*4(>[(<)*3(-)*7<<(+[<{}])%28>(-)*50<(-)*50<(-)*10>>(>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](+)*50)*3 (>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](-)*50)*2(>)*7 (>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*22]--)*24
03:15:32 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_brachiation: 44.7
03:15:44 <quintopia> !bfjoust brachiation >->(-)*5(>)*4(>[(<)*3(+)*7<<(+[<{}])%28>(-)*50<(-)*50<(-)*10>>(>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](+)*50)*3 (>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](-)*50)*2(>)*7 (>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*22]++)*24
03:15:47 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_brachiation: 47.3
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06:00:31 <Sgeo> monqy, tswett UPDATE
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08:03:22 <Taneb> What is that even about?
08:03:40 <itidus21> its a very base joke.. so base even i guessed it
08:04:03 <Taneb> How does that even qualify as a joke?
08:04:23 <Taneb> Je;;p would almost be a joke
08:04:34 <itidus21> i hope this doesn't mean my influence is rubbing off
08:07:46 <itidus21> Taneb, I have decided to analyze video games from an unusual direction
08:07:58 <itidus21> It's a burgeoning idea I had for a while.
08:08:09 <Taneb> North by North West?
08:08:30 <itidus21> Infact I think the premise alone could sell books.
08:09:00 <Sgeo> Kata is the best direction.
08:09:01 <itidus21> but, ok well, comparing games by attributes such as "does the game have jumping? does the game have guns?
08:09:21 <Taneb> You mean like Super Mario Bros 3?
08:09:33 <Taneb> I believe that has all those elements
08:10:21 <itidus21> I came up with a fairly random list of about 29 games with a nintendo platform bias
08:11:10 <kmc> doors that open by themselves, sliding doors, secret doors, doors that lock, doors that don't
08:11:30 <itidus21> like, the trouble I see is that there aren't any websites which store such information in a database in existence
08:11:38 <Sgeo> Clearly, you should get some aliens to design games.
08:11:53 <itidus21> well it's not so much a trouble, as it is some uncharted ground
08:11:55 <Taneb> Assassin's Creed Brotherhood has jumping, guns, ladders, but no score
08:11:58 <Sgeo> Then they won't refernce Earthy things
08:12:11 <Sgeo> And Earthy gaming conventions
08:12:36 <Taneb> Like metal barrels are always explosive
08:12:38 <itidus21> Taneb: well.. as i make up more of these arbitrary categories the whole process can get very drawn out
08:13:04 <itidus21> infact, i think that at some level, such a database could be a behemoth
08:13:38 <itidus21> and it's not the sort of thing people need.. it's just me looking for a niche way of analysis
08:15:04 <itidus21> but i'm probably onto something.. most of my ideas are half-truths and misguided versions of actual good ideas
08:15:32 <itidus21> as it is, you can't look up in any database which video games contain blue hats
08:15:47 <itidus21> but with the "kind" of database i am describing, you might be able to
08:17:20 <nooga> it's called being a data nerd
08:19:47 <Taneb> I think Team Fortress 2 has blue hats
08:19:53 <Taneb> Team Fortress 2 has all the hats
08:22:06 <fizzie> http://www.gameontology.com/index.php/Main_Page is doing something a bit like that.
08:22:19 <fizzie> For example, http://www.gameontology.com/index.php/To_Shoot is a bit like "does it have guns?"
08:22:23 <itidus21> i am being serious too.. you would goto tidusdatanerd.com and see the box Search: [__________] and type in "blue hats" and it would list (1)Team Fortress 2 (2)[...]
08:22:39 <fizzie> They're probably not the only folks, but they're maybe the most pretentious.
08:22:40 <itidus21> fizzie: gah.... why can't i ever have a niche to myself ;_;
08:23:01 <itidus21> i suppose that tvtropes is sort of doing the same thing in a manner of speaking
08:23:22 <fizzie> And they mostly just list some examples instead of trying to build a comprehensive list.
08:24:30 <itidus21> well as it turns out it's actually quite difficult to prove a negative about a video game
08:24:39 <fizzie> They're trying to do a hierarchical thing, though. And I suppose it's as pointless as anything involving the word "ontology" tends to be, but anyway.
08:25:08 <itidus21> So i guess such a database should be padded out with unknown
08:25:39 <itidus21> and the categorization of some of these things is a nightmare
08:26:22 <itidus21> like, most games which have jumping have a jump button.. but some games require you to press 2 buttons at once to jump...
08:27:02 <fizzie> I see they've put out some game conference papers about their por-ject.
08:27:40 <itidus21> and in link's awakening you need an item to jump
08:28:29 <nooga> who'd input the data?
08:28:32 <itidus21> or in some games you may have to drive a car up a ramp to jump
08:29:24 <itidus21> or basically some environmental jump could be a trampoline or a ramp etc
08:30:41 <itidus21> nooga: well, the main point i think is the data exists
08:30:49 <fizzie> If you want even more of a niche project, http://www.igcd.net/ have a database of which models of cars have been seen in which video games.
08:30:52 <itidus21> but what kind of nutcases care about it
08:31:50 <itidus21> the fact you know about igcd tells me i am a long way from kansas
08:32:04 <fizzie> I did not know about it four minutes ago.
08:33:21 <itidus21> nooga: basically it's just a mode of exploration.. looking for niches.. looking for a leg up on the rivals
08:33:34 <nooga> you could build akinator-like service only for games then
08:33:44 <itidus21> if such a database existed i would be merely looking for new niches
08:33:51 <nooga> and amaze bunch of bored players
08:34:03 <itidus21> a lot of the fun of a niche is it's exclusivity
08:36:37 <itidus21> i am gonna visit the irc chat of igcd just to see what is there
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08:44:08 <itidus21> i'm doomed to be to video games as scott mccloud is to comics
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08:46:15 <itidus21> nooga: well it is my job to enter such data
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08:47:42 <itidus21> knowing though, that each search for such a datum could result in new sub-questions, and that well.. it's not computable how long any such question will take to answer
08:48:38 <itidus21> .... ^well maybe it's computable..
08:48:48 <itidus21> but it's not predictable by ordinary means..
09:02:38 <Taneb> itidus21, there's someone on #haskell reminding me of you
09:02:44 <Taneb> <kilon> expect a lot more weird questions coming from me in the future :D
09:03:48 <itidus21> when someone such as me is aware of their own weirdness... that is usually a sign of trouble
09:04:33 <itidus21> nah he's comfortable with asking weird questions apparently
09:05:05 <itidus21> my current query is the native resolution of atari asteroids
09:05:57 <itidus21> (as nooga suggested) i have no practical application of this info though
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09:07:44 <kmc> itidus21: www.philpem.me.uk/elec/vecgen.pdf
09:08:10 <kmc> the short answer is 1024 × 1024
09:08:26 <kmc> but it's true vector graphics
09:08:37 <kmc> the graphics chip directly controls the deflection of the electron beam
09:08:41 <kmc> there's not a grid of pixels as such
09:09:00 <itidus21> does that mean it could have more res if it had uh i dunno
09:09:05 <kmc> and so it could move very smoothly between line endpoints, or generate circles etc. with analog oscillators
09:09:15 <kmc> i don't know if the DVG actually has these capabilities
09:09:39 <itidus21> i mean, i get the sense that 1024 is just an arbitrary constraint they settled on
09:10:07 <kmc> the CPU sends coordinates to the DVG over a digital data bus
09:10:12 <kmc> those coordinates are 10 bit
09:10:37 <kmc> but you could have a system where, even though the endpoints of lines are locked to a 1024 × 1024 grid, the beam deflection between points is much smoother and does not alias to that grid
09:10:54 <kmc> this could be done with a higher resolution internal counter + DAC, or with analog circuitry
09:11:51 <itidus21> as if you had been waiting for someone to ask
09:11:59 <kmc> i looked this up a while ago for no particular reason
09:12:13 <kmc> i think just because i went to barcade in brooklyn and was impressed by how nice the original asteroids machine looks
09:12:29 <kmc> it has a brilliantly intense white on black CRT
09:12:46 <kmc> objects leave wonderful trails as they move
09:12:51 <itidus21> wikipedia did mention the DVG (with a red link) but i more or less overlooked it's relevance to the question)
09:13:13 <kmc> also http://www.jmargolin.com/vgens/vgens.htm
09:16:57 <kmc> it sounds like those 10 bits are all the resolution it has on the output
09:19:16 <itidus21> it's all so funny now, with everyone owning their own framebuffers
09:19:46 <itidus21> but this vector stuff seems to still have advantages over that
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09:26:46 <Taneb> Oh god this exists https://twitter.com/#!/HexhamProblems
09:28:06 <kmc> i'm not sure why this document about the digital vector generator goes off on a long tangent where they basically explain how to design a CPU
09:28:36 <Taneb> Does homestuck.bandcamp.com look dodgy to anyone else?
09:28:54 <itidus21> yeah i knew that part was over my head so i cut to the "final thoughts"
09:30:58 <fizzie> Taneb: Are those Hexham Problems the kind of problems you have?
09:31:26 <Taneb> I'm out of earshot of the Abbey
09:32:06 <Taneb> Never been to Donnies, haven't been to Spoons in ages
09:32:32 <kmc> itidus21: ah, later they talk about analog vector generators
09:32:51 <kmc> which would actually draw those perfectly smooth lines
09:33:35 <itidus21> #hexhamproblems "The awkward moment when your intimidated at the sele by 13 year old chavs"
09:33:37 <kmc> which was used by Battlezone apparently
09:35:10 <itidus21> apparently The Sele = A shitty scumbag of a school. They say they deal with bullying, no they dont. They say they have a good reputation, no they dont.
09:38:25 <fizzie> There's an "elliott" (with a different surname) following HexhamProblems.
09:38:39 <Taneb> itidus21, in this context, the Sele refers to the field and hill, not the school
09:38:54 <Taneb> The oldest pupils of the school are 9
09:39:12 <fizzie> What's "mish"? Is that like a type of going somewhere?
09:39:21 <Taneb> Yeah, short for "mission"
09:39:32 <Taneb> It may be Hexham-specific slang
09:39:33 <kmc> oh man, it had analog clipping to rectangle too
09:39:38 <fizzie> "You know your from hexham when you mish to tescos ten times a day" "The soundtrack to your mish down the street being the harpsicord busker".
09:40:09 <itidus21> Taneb: well i'm absolutely sure that all the people from hexham would be happier if hexham slang didn't become a major topic :D
09:40:24 <shachaf> > (!!1)<$>transpose[show$sum[(8-i.&.3*4)*div(10^6^n)(a^i*i)|i<-[1,3..9*2^n],a<-[2,3]]|n<-[0..]]
09:40:26 <lambdabot> "31415926535897932384626387169884407661971693988789488104965184659327495149...
09:40:43 <Taneb> Is that actually pi?
09:40:51 <Taneb> I don't get out much, and elliott probably isn't real
09:40:56 <itidus21> im just gonna let it blow over
09:41:18 <fizzie> Taneb: What's a "geordie"?
09:41:33 <Taneb> Person from Newcastle, with all the stereotypes that entails
09:41:44 <fizzie> You've got quite a lot of these terms.
09:41:48 <Taneb> i.e., tough, hardy, has a cool accent
09:42:09 <itidus21> fizzie: both taneb and elliott would probably rather we didn't explore it.
09:42:22 <Taneb> A combination of English, Scottish, and I think Norwegian accents
09:42:24 <itidus21> i can't really explain why.. i don't know
09:43:14 <fizzie> Taneb: Oh, so "spoons" was a place. I was thinking, you know, spoons. I mean, they keep knives away from folk that might do stuff with them, don't they?
09:43:27 <itidus21> most americans can't follow a british accent very well.
09:44:26 <itidus21> but since australia is full of immigrants from that part of the world our accent is well.. compatible i think
09:44:56 <itidus21> i don't know why that would be the case though
09:45:15 <Taneb> itidus21, some british accents aren't compatible at all
09:45:28 <itidus21> well i mean.. some people literally can't parse it
09:45:39 <Taneb> I'd pay good money to see a person from Glasgow, a person from Somerset, and a person of Yorkshire trying to talk to eachother
09:46:32 <Taneb> fizzie, spoons is slang for the pub chain Wetherspoon
09:46:56 <Taneb> Especially the one in Hexham, which is next to the cinema
09:47:21 <itidus21> there was a cool slang word i learned yesterday.. i forget what it was
09:47:29 <shachaf> > (!!1)<$>transpose[show$sum[(8-i.&.3*4)*div(1000^2^n)(a^i*i)|i<-[1,3..9*2^n],a<-[2,3]]|n<-[0..]]
09:47:35 <shachaf> > (!!1)<$>transpose[show$sum[(8-i.&.3*4)*div(1000^2^n)(a^i*i)|i<-[1,3..9*2^n],a<-[2,3]]|n<-[0..]]
09:47:37 <lambdabot> "31415926535897932384626433832795028841971693993751058209749445923078164062...
09:47:53 <Taneb> Are... are they different at all
09:48:57 <Sgeo> KQ has the best music.
09:52:50 <Sgeo> http://kqlives.sourceforge.net/
09:53:48 <Sgeo> `run echo -e "a\nb"
09:54:11 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ foo \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ quotes.new \ share \ wisdom
09:54:37 <HackEgo> <Aftran> I used computational linguistics to kill her. \ <Slereah> EgoBot just opened a chat session with me to say "bork bork bork" \ <Quas_NaArt> Hmmm... My fingers and tongue seem to be as quick as ever, but my lips have definitely weakened... <Quas_NaArt> More practice is in order. \ <AnMaster> that's where I got it <AnMaster> rocket launch facility gift shop \ <Warrigal> GKennethR: he should be told that you should
09:54:48 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.32574
09:56:47 <Taneb> What's up with the Alternate Universe quotes early on?
09:57:36 <fizzie> fungot: Is he really a tricycle?
09:57:38 <fungot> fizzie: though the error message and make your head detachable... i downloaded the tex fnord is there a scheme that offers methods on any data type.
09:57:48 <fungot> Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script)
09:57:53 <fizzie> fungot: A detachable head?
09:57:54 <fungot> fizzie: you! take! we find!
09:58:07 <fizzie> fungot: I don't have a detachable head.
09:58:08 <fungot> fizzie: that no one was allowed to use the crane, enter any two of these letters, a b y.
09:59:12 <fizzie> fungot: Okay, I won't use the crane to detach my head. But I'm still unclear on whether he was a tricycle.
09:59:13 <fungot> fizzie: i, myself, will bring an end to all. ghosts lurk in the ruins! the structural damage is severe. the tale?
09:59:35 <fizzie> I have to say I kind of like that "i, myself, will bring an end to all" thing.
10:00:31 <kmc> "The TMS320P15 was supposedly hack-proof once the Security Bit was set. It wasn't. The reason I know is that in that project I put in an undocumented program that sent out the Atari copyright message in Morse Code. Because of the DSP's speed it could be received by just placing a standard AM radio near the PC Board. The program was called only by grounding an innocuously unused I/O pin during Reset. When Atari received a counterfeited game
10:01:02 <shachaf> kmc: Having trouble in this game of golf.
10:01:10 <kmc> the only winning move is not to play
10:01:38 <shachaf> kmc: edwardk came with a variation so inefficient, lambdabot doesn't manage to compute it all the way to the cutoff point.
10:01:51 <shachaf> But it's several characters shorter. :-(
10:02:09 <shachaf> (In fact maybe no computer would be able to calculate it to the cutoff point ever with that algorithm.)
10:02:15 <kmc> (did my full quote come through just now?)
10:02:24 <shachaf> Reset. When Atari received a counterfeited game
10:02:43 <kmc> "...When Atari received a counterfeited game to examine, I placed an AM radio near the board, grounded the aforementioned I/O pin, gave it a Reset, and heard my Copyright Message on the radio."
10:04:26 <fizzie> I've used a TMS320C5416 for schoolwork, it was a fancy. (Much later thing than a C15, though.)
10:17:45 <Taneb> nooga, has the psychology experiment gone wrong?
10:17:58 <nooga> my lisp interpreter actually compiles and runs every single example from various books
10:18:23 <Taneb> (yours as in you wrote it?)
10:18:30 <nooga> oh, it would just crash if something went wrong
10:18:59 <Taneb> Try running something bigger
10:19:22 <nooga> I don't have backquote and macros
10:19:37 <Taneb> Well, now you know what to do next!
10:19:47 <Taneb> Go out and celebrate!
10:19:52 <Taneb> Go to LegoLand or somewhere!
10:20:20 <nooga> i'd rather buy two beers
10:20:59 <fizzie> LeggoLand, where everyone tries to escape.
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13:35:42 <itidus21> nooga: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATBl4qH9I54
13:37:07 <elliott> > let fibs = 0 : 1 : zipWith (+) fibs (tail fibs) in fibs
13:37:08 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946...
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13:39:32 <quintopia> !bfjoust brachiation >->(-)*5(>)*4(>[(<)*3(+)*7<<(+[<{}>(-)*50<(-)*50<(-)*10>>(>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](+)*50)*3 (>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](-)*50)*2(>)*7 (>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*22])%28]++)*22>(-)*115[-][+][-]
13:39:41 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_brachiation: 46.9
13:39:58 <quintopia> elliott: that basically says "let this list be this list added with itself shifted to the right by one"?
13:41:14 <quintopia> !bfjoust brachiation >->(-)*5(>)*4(>[(<)*3(+)*7<<(+[<{}])%28>(-)*50<(-)*50<(-)*10>>(>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](+)*50)*3 (>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](-)*50)*2(>)*7 (>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*22]++)*24
13:41:15 <elliott> quintopia: fibs is a list starting with 0, continuing with 1, and then continuing with fibs added with fibs sans the first element, yes.
13:41:16 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_brachiation: 47.3
13:42:22 <quintopia> does "tail" mean the same as "cdr" or does it not use cons lists?
13:43:35 <elliott> data Stream a = a :> Stream a
13:43:44 <elliott> and it would not ues the avoid of the partial function "tail".
13:43:50 <elliott> But Stream isn't in the standard library.
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13:45:47 <elliott> Nothing. It's a user-defined operator.
13:45:50 <elliott> I could just as easily say
13:45:57 <elliott> data Stream a = a :$$$$ Stream a
13:46:01 <elliott> data Stream a = Cons a (Stream a)
13:48:18 <quintopia> why is that user-defined operator necessary?
13:49:23 <elliott> Cons 0 (Cons 1 (Cons 2 (Cons 3 (...
13:49:30 <elliott> Cons 0 . Cons 1 . Cons 2 . Cons 3 $ ...
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14:30:43 <ion> :> also looks happier.
14:33:48 <ion> 0 `Cons` 1 `Cons` 2 `Cons` 3 `Cons` …
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15:31:03 <Taneb> They... actuall sing "nanananananana"
15:51:13 <Taneb> I reckon the riddler would do better if he didn't make riddles that tell batman the answer
15:53:54 <Taneb> "But Batman! You're dead!" "No I'm not"
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16:27:51 <ais523> question just observed on gameshow: "Alphabetically, which month comes fifth?"
16:28:45 <ais523> <quintopia> … (+[<{}])%28 …
16:28:53 <ais523> care to explain the strategy?
16:29:44 <ais523> <quintopia> what does :> mean <-- sometimes I fly around in a spaceship…
16:29:53 <ais523> john_metcalf: indeed, although they only gave a few seconds to work it out
16:32:16 <Taneb> I'd have got that wrong
16:32:25 <Taneb> I forgot about August and June
16:32:35 <Taneb> I'm not a Summer person
16:32:54 <Taneb> ais523, which gameshow?
16:34:03 <ais523> did you check the UK TV schedules?
16:34:06 <ais523> or are you watching it yourself?
16:34:19 <Taneb> I thought it was, but I couldn't remember the name
16:34:46 <Taneb> I watched a bit of it once when waiting for the chips to be ready at the local Chinese
16:34:50 <Taneb> The questions seemed easy
16:35:05 <ais523> they're notably easier in the endgame than in the rest of the show
16:35:17 <ais523> this is the opposite of most programs, but it makes sense the way it works
16:38:00 <Taneb> Yeah, that'd be it
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16:44:18 <fizzie> ais523: I think the month is $(for mon in `seq -f'%02g' 12`; do env LC_TIME=C date --date=1984-$mon-01 +%B; done | sort | tail -n +5 | head -n 1), right?
16:44:21 <fizzie> Oh no, it didn't expand!
16:46:32 <fizzie> (It's December for the fi_FI locale.)
16:46:50 <fizzie> (Not that I have that in place, I just thought it'd be better to be explicit.)
16:48:48 <ais523> what months come before December in alphabetical order in Finland?
16:50:23 <fizzie> The full order is August, July, Februray, April, December, June, October, March, November, September, January, May.
16:50:43 <ais523> ah, you're translating the names into English
16:50:50 <fizzie> (Or, elokuu, heinäkuu, helmikuu, huhtikuu, joulukuu, kesäkuu, lokakuu, maaliskuu, marraskuu, syyskuu, tammikuu, toukokuu.)
16:51:06 <ais523> "English months by alphabetical order of their Finnish translations" is a far from intuitive order
16:51:27 <fizzie> It's one for the challenge level.
16:53:20 <fizzie> Many of them have a seasonally appropriate name. Like fi:loka is like mud, dirt and that sort of stuff, and October is one of the suckiest months w.r.t. weather. (Well, unless you like wet, I guess.)
16:53:29 <fizzie> And "kesäkuu" is just "summer month".
16:53:43 <fizzie> Also "syyskuu" -> "autumn month".
16:53:54 <fizzie> Curiously, there's no "winter month" or "spring month".
17:00:04 <fizzie> Okay, since I started... "elokuu" is like "crop month" (as in stuff-that-grows-in-fields), which I suppose... is something that's somehow relevant in August. (I'm not a country person.) "heinäkuu" is "hay month", I guess something similar. "helmikuu" is "pearl month", and I don't know what's up with that, maybe snow or ice or something? "huhtikuu" is from "huhta", a dated reference to a type ...
17:00:10 <fizzie> ... of cleared woodland, I suppose again something that's done in April. "tammikuu" is "oak month", and... I've got nothing. And so on and so forth; they're very farming-oriented, unsurprisingly.
17:17:41 <Deewiant> "elo" is from "crop" and not "life"?
17:18:05 <Deewiant> I guess it makes more sense that way.
17:18:54 <Vorpal> hm it seems playing gamecube games (in an emulator) without a gamepad is god damn impossible. It usually (depending on game) works fine with n64 games. The extra analogue stick on the gamecube makes it a lot harder to handle with keyboard and mouse
17:19:34 <Vorpal> hm and my joystick have digital hats, so that is useless as well.
17:22:19 <fizzie> Given how they predominantly seem to be about which farming-related activity is supposed to be performed in that particular month, I'd guess that way.
17:24:48 <fizzie> The gamecube controller always looks sorta-kinda weird to me. The four-button corner is so unsymmetric, and somehow I'm also weirded out by the fact that the analog sticks are in that unsymmetric way. (Xbox controller does that too.)
17:25:45 <fizzie> And it doesn't have the N64 controller saving-grace of having a place for the middle hand.
17:26:05 <itidus21> patents have lead to controllers being shitty
17:26:18 <itidus21> well can't entirely blame the patents
17:26:26 <Taneb> itidus21, I don't think it's much about patents
17:27:00 <itidus21> ok button positioning probably isn't
17:27:33 <itidus21> but everything else... ahhh.... i dunno what to say
17:27:39 <Taneb> Neither is analog stick positioning: Compare Playstation controller with Wii Classic Controller
17:27:57 <fizzie> Speaking of the N64 controller, I haven't ever figured out any sensible button mappings from the PS3 one to it, primarily because it has those four yellow semi-directional buttons. The four-button diamond (ABXY in Xbox, cross-square-triangle-circle in PS3) could handle those, but that'd leave the primary A and B buttons unclaimed.
17:27:58 <Vorpal> Taneb, which one do you think is better?
17:28:14 <Vorpal> Taneb, PS1, PS2 or PS3?
17:28:16 <itidus21> cross shaped d-pad was patented a long time, both styles of vibration patented, various wireless control techs patented
17:28:27 <Taneb> Vorpal, the only one I had was a PS2
17:28:54 <Taneb> I miss Ratchet and Clank 3
17:29:23 <fizzie> There's not really any radical differences between the PS controllers, except the PS1 default doesn't have any analog sticks.
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17:30:10 <fizzie> After they added those in the "Dual Analog" PS1 controller, it's mostly been just incremental fiddling.
17:31:48 <fizzie> I mean, look at the right-side sidebars of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DualShock -- okay, the first one is light gray instead of dark, but that's about it.
17:32:46 <Vorpal> how much does one of those cost standalone?
17:32:48 <fizzie> Sure, they made the buttons pressure sensitive, and fiddled with the triggers, and added the motion sensing fluff, but the shape's the same.
17:32:58 <Vorpal> I guess it could be used for gamecube games.
17:33:16 <fizzie> I think mine (it's a DualShock 3) cost something like 40 eur?
17:33:33 <Vorpal> hm that is pretty steep
17:33:42 <Vorpal> anyway what about the six axis thingy?
17:34:27 <fizzie> Plain "Sixaxis" was the first one where they added the thing where you can tilt it forward/backward/sideways/whatever and it senses that, but they also lost vibration while doing that.
17:34:48 <fizzie> DualShock 3 has both the vibration (from DualShock 2) and the motion-sensing (from Sixaxis).
17:34:49 <Vorpal> ah, does the dualshock 3 have all the features?
17:35:07 <fizzie> Yeah, despite them originally saying it's physically impossible to have both or something. :p
17:35:26 <fizzie> Not that I have ever used the motion sensing for anything.
17:36:09 <fizzie> My default local (i.e. Finnish) computer-stuff webshop has a DualShock 2 for 24.90 eur and a DualShock 3 for 42.40 eur.
17:36:38 <Vorpal> so what does dualshock 2 miss compared to the third iteration (apart from the tilt stuff)?
17:37:05 <fizzie> Oh, right, there's that too.
17:37:41 <Vorpal> oh analogue triggers it seems
17:37:50 <fizzie> I think that's pretty much all. Except maybe the triggers in DS3 are "more analog"? The wiki sidebars list L2 and R2 as "pressure sensitive" for DS2 and "analog triggers" for DS3.
17:37:56 <Vorpal> well that might be useful. Surely there must be some cheaper third party stuff though
17:38:14 <Vorpal> OEM stuff is always more expensive in my experience
17:38:42 <fizzie> If you're going with third-party stuff, you might just consider one that's actually meant for plugging to a computer. The DS3 computer drivers are bit on the hacky side.
17:38:56 <fizzie> The Xbox wireless whatever is also more computer-friendly by default.
17:39:16 <fizzie> Or that's what I've heard, anyway.
17:39:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, I would need a bluetooth thingy for my computer if I went for wireless
17:39:39 <Vorpal> I'm not playing on a laptop. So that doesn't interest me.
17:40:05 <Vorpal> plus there is the hassle of dealing with batteries
17:40:18 <Vorpal> guess why I use USB mice still? Yeah
17:40:20 <fizzie> On the Windows side, they have that "XInput" thing that the Xbox controller does, and e.g. with Sonic Generations only gamepads doing XInput seem to really work well, so I have to keep the DS3 in Xbox emulation mode often.
17:40:43 <Vorpal> xbox emulation mode? It seriously has that in the hardware?
17:40:53 <fizzie> No, it's a thing of the Windows driver I'm using.
17:41:13 <fizzie> "MotioninJoy" something.
17:41:17 <Vorpal> so I wonder what gamepads for computers cost. Less I guess
17:41:32 <Vorpal> anyway there is the question of build quality as well...
17:41:43 <fizzie> Not that it really matters, except the games keep saying A, B, X and Y when they mean the PS3 symbols. But it's not like you'd really have time to go hunt-and-pecking for the button, so...
17:42:01 <Vorpal> but yeah I fail hard at playing wind waker using the keyboard and mouse. I can play ocarina of time just fine with such a setup
17:42:45 <fizzie> Official "Wireless Xbox 360" pad is 34.90 in the same shop. (I presume it's only optionally wireless like the DS3 and can be used plugged in, too.)
17:43:47 <fizzie> Bastion's Steam version only worked in x360 emulation mode too, I suppose many people are using those so it's what they test with. I don't have any first-hand quality-difference knowledge since I only have this one pad.
17:44:01 <Vorpal> "Wireless (proprietary 2.4 GHz protocol), USB" says wikipedia
17:44:39 <fizzie> I wonder if they sell the receiver (for computers) if it's some proprietary stuff, then.
17:44:59 <Vorpal> bastion seems suboptimal to play with a pad IMO. While bastion is essentially a twin stick shooter, the aiming would be far more precise using a mouse. And wasd for movement works fine (an analogue input would be better for that bit)
17:45:19 <fizzie> It's got some sort of an auto-aim thing in the pad control mode, I think.
17:45:27 <Vorpal> Anyway bastion is XNA. Probably the issue lies with XNA there
17:45:55 <fizzie> Locks to the enemy you're approximately pointing towards, and then I think you can cycle with L1/R1. I really only played just through the intro so far.
17:46:09 <Vorpal> still far less precision I would guess.
17:46:21 <Lumpio-> Wonder what the bastion linux version runs on
17:46:33 <Vorpal> Lumpio-, mono, I checked
17:46:56 <Lumpio-> I didn't know Mono did XNA
17:47:05 <fizzie> Mono itself doesn't, exactly.
17:47:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, you /really/ need to play that game. It is awesome. But yeah, give mouse and keyboard a try. IMO it works perfectly fine and though I haven't tried pad I suspect it might be superior to a pad.
17:47:18 <fizzie> It was some project or another. MonoGame? Some silly name like that.
17:47:30 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yep pretty sure it did.
17:47:44 <Vorpal> maybe they offer copy and paste or something?
17:47:46 <fizzie> (I didn't know the xbox controller has a hole in it for audio headsets. The More You Know.)
17:47:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, it definitely did; you need to type bank account numbers by hand, and withdrawal amounts, and bank IPs
17:48:26 <Vorpal> I don't remember doing a bank mission in that. I guess I must have done though
17:48:33 <Phantom_Hoover> So I guess the "hack into a bank and steal 1000000 credits before you even start the main plot" exploit is kind of messed up.
17:49:41 <fizzie> I think some Uplink speedrun (or funny-extra-story LP, or something) started with an initial bank run.
17:49:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Sometimes it gives you missions to "track a fraudulent transfer" or something, and the thing is that as part of it you *have* to hack into an account which will always have several hundred thousand credits.
17:49:49 -!- Taneb has joined.
17:50:12 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, yeah; I never actually played through it without doing a bank run.
17:50:34 <fizzie> "The Wireless Gaming Receiver (sold as "Crossfire Wireless Gaming Receiver" in the UK) allows wireless Xbox 360 accessories, such as wireless gamepads, racing wheels and headsets, to be used on a Windows-based PC." Right, they do sell that thing, I see.
17:51:45 <fizzie> I have a Bluetooth USB "dongle" here somewhere, I think it might well be the smallest "peripheral" I own. I can't even quite locate it right now, it's that small.
17:51:53 <fizzie> http://www.databest.fi/blueusb21.htm <- it's one of these.
17:59:29 <lambdabot> (!!1)<$>transpose[show$sum[(8-i.&.3*4)*div(1000^2^n)(a^i*i)|i<-[1,3..9*2^n],a<-[2,3]]|n<-[0..]]
17:59:31 <lambdabot> [show(sum[(8-i.&.3*4)*div(1000^2^n)(a^i*i)|i<-[1,3..9*2^n],a<-[2,3]])!!n|n<-[0..]]
17:59:34 <shachaf> So pi_11 is correct, I'm pretty sure, but it's this crazy double-exponential thing that isn't going to compute more than a few digits in practice ever.
17:59:37 <shachaf> Does it count for golfing?
18:00:42 <Taneb> I've got it up to the first 8
18:01:17 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
18:01:30 <lambdabot> "31415926535897932384626433832795028841971693993751058209749445923078164062...
18:01:30 <elliott> Taneb: Using ghc -O2? If not, perhaps do so, for the constant factor improvement.
18:01:37 <Taneb> elliott, using GHCi
18:01:41 <elliott> shachaf: I would say it "counts", but dioesn't count.
18:01:47 <shachaf> elliott: THIS ISN'T ABOUT CONSTANT FACTORS
18:02:04 <shachaf> In order to get lambdabot to run it it needs to generate 74 digits or something.
18:02:10 <shachaf> > length "31415926535897932384626433832795028841971693993751058209749445923078164062"
18:02:35 <lambdabot> let(p,q)%d=p*d`div`q;w(p,q)i=(p*i+1,q*i);(x:y:s)^d|y%d>x%d=s^d|0<1=mod(x%d)10:s^(10*d)in 2:scanl w(1,1)[1..]^10>>=show
18:03:08 <shachaf> Progress: http://hpaste.org/70159
18:03:22 <shachaf> (It got broken sometime around the 10^6^n point.)
18:06:23 <Taneb> It worked better when it was in GHCi
18:09:21 <elliott> Taneb: You probably forgot to turn off output buffering.
18:12:03 -!- MDoze has changed nick to MDude.
18:12:35 <shachaf> hSetBuffering Output TurnOff
18:14:07 -!- aloril has joined.
18:14:11 <Taneb> Yeah, that does better
18:16:52 <Taneb> This reminds me of a quote
18:16:59 <HackEgo> 9) <Madelon> Lil`Cube: you had cavity searches? <Lil`Cube> not yet <Lil`Cube> trying to thou, just so I can check it off on my list of things to expirence \ 14) <pikhq> First, invent the direct mind-computer interface. <pikhq> Second, you know the rest. \ 15) IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <pikhq> First, invent the direct mind-computer interface. <pikhq> Second, learn the rest with your NEW MIND-COMPUTER INTERFACE. \ 29)
18:17:19 <HackEgo> 164) <Phantom_Hoover> It's only been 2 months since anyone last made a commit! <alise> WRONG 8 WEEKS \ 397) <ais523_> meanwhile, I've been running a program for over 24 hours (getting close to 48 now) which is calculating digits of pi, in binary <ais523_> so far, it has found four digits <ais523_> I hope it will find the fifth some time this week
18:17:29 <HackEgo> 397) <ais523_> meanwhile, I've been running a program for over 24 hours (getting close to 48 now) which is calculating digits of pi, in binary <ais523_> so far, it has found four digits <ais523_> I hope it will find the fifth some time this week
18:18:21 <Taneb> I suspect the former
18:18:33 <elliott> It was ICA compiled to hardware, I think.
18:19:36 <itidus21> i don't think programming will be any easier with a direct mind-computer interface
18:19:42 <elliott> Idealised Concurrent Algol.
18:20:08 <Taneb> itidus21, my ICT teacher had a mind-computer interface
18:20:14 <Taneb> It was innaccurate
18:20:24 <Taneb> Merlin could use it to play the helicopter game
18:20:43 <itidus21> i dare even repeat: learning is pain.
18:20:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Or maybe he'd finished with that, ISTR asking about it.
18:21:00 <Taneb> itidus21, wrong. pain is learning.
18:21:07 <itidus21> so the fallacy is in "Second, learn the rest with your NEW MIND-COMPUTER INTERFACE."
18:21:10 <Taneb> My uncle works in a bank
18:21:22 <Taneb> All of my uncles work in banks
18:21:36 <Taneb> I have no blood aunts
18:22:09 <itidus21> many things are not worth knowing
18:22:23 <itidus21> it's mostly important to be able to survive a day at a time
18:22:40 <Taneb> I survive a week and a half at a time
18:23:12 <itidus21> little tips like "going without food and/or water and/or sleep and/or blood will kill you"
18:23:48 -!- oerjan has joined.
18:24:21 <itidus21> i produce my own blood, but still, i need to keep it
18:24:40 <oerjan> blood is just mates you eat, crikey.
18:25:20 <itidus21> i can't just for instance bleed and bleed all day
18:25:48 <oerjan> confirmed: itidus21 is a man.
18:25:58 * oerjan swats himself -----###
18:26:08 <itidus21> i can probably live without legs or arms or sight or hearing or hair
18:26:46 <itidus21> and some vitamin and mineral deficiencies would kill me more slowly
18:26:46 <Taneb> itidus21, you'd get sunburnt without the last one
18:27:14 <itidus21> like i'm due to buy some vitamin d tablets
18:27:14 -!- boily has joined.
18:28:26 <Phantom_Hoover> iti you realise there's this cheap vitamin d supplement called 'sunlight'
18:28:47 <itidus21> yes my doctor never fails to remind me that it only takes 15 - 30 minutes of sunlight a day
18:30:30 <itidus21> but the thought of having a machine fill head with data is disturbing
18:30:47 <itidus21> it would probably feel a lot like being in a video game
18:31:08 <itidus21> having no experiences on which to base your knowledge
18:31:42 <itidus21> only being able to test what you are being told by thinking about it
18:32:42 <itidus21> sounds heavily biased towards the needs of society over the needs of the individual
18:33:16 <ion> I haven’t followed the discussion, but i wouldn’t mind being able to make queries and get responses just like in a REPL or with a web browser, but with direct neural communication with the computer.
18:33:58 <itidus21> theres nerves in your fingertips!
18:34:31 <ion> OH, REALLY?
18:34:51 <itidus21> im completely against all this direct mind computer stuff
18:35:48 <fizzie> Ads in your optic nerve are the bomb.
18:37:10 <oerjan> fizzie: you mean, that makes you want to make bombs.
18:38:03 <fizzie> ICA is Independent Component Analysis and no silly Algol thing, also.
18:38:19 <fizzie> (Ambiguity in acronyms is bad.)
18:39:50 <fizzie> oerjan: Maybe they've also fed the bomb-making desires directly to my head.
18:41:18 <itidus21> i'm not inherently against augmented reality
18:41:54 <itidus21> never discount the effect of human nature upon the introduction of new technologies though
18:41:56 <fizzie> "Real fucking mind control from laser satellites", like a well-known thinker once said.
18:43:48 <fizzie> (It might not have been those exact words, I'm afraid.)
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18:44:52 <itidus21> fizzie: ahh the only reason they even care about your head is because the most dangerous person is one from inside the group
18:45:40 <itidus21> its no more different than bribing someone on the opposing sports team to injure one of his best teammates
18:46:01 <itidus21> except since a bribe is too expensive
18:46:10 <itidus21> and the expense would make the whole thing pointless
18:47:05 <itidus21> uh that is to say, "fed the bomb-making desires directly to my head" it's like finding a free way to bribe someone on the opposing sports team to injure one of his best teammates
18:48:15 <itidus21> well since bribing is too expensive and also it's open to free will and potential negotiations
18:49:56 <itidus21> but once everyone realized that there was technology actively doing such things, they would start changing the rules of the sport to accomodate for it to happen
18:50:52 <itidus21> like "ok we know our citizens are being brainwashed to build bombs, so we will perform scans on as many of them as possible"
18:51:32 <itidus21> or we will put up more security so that said citizen is less of a threat, we will strip him of more rights
19:01:16 <itidus21> it's a bit like how an easy way to go to war would be random poisoning of water resevoirs
19:02:22 <itidus21> it's the same general principle
19:03:17 <Taneb> I'm pretty sure that's against the Geneva convention
19:03:46 <itidus21> i am speaking a bit out of my mind though
19:04:47 <itidus21> it seems to me that there is no long term process of relaxing security around the world
19:05:17 <itidus21> that it's all just on a downward spiral to big brother
19:07:01 <itidus21> but uh.. with fizzie's brainwashing comment it's like
19:07:09 <Taneb> Maybe you should rise up and take the power back?
19:07:19 <Taneb> It's time the fat cats had a heart attack
19:07:48 <Taneb> You know their time's coming to an end, so we need to unify and watch the flag ascend
19:07:51 <itidus21> "ahh.. who would be the best person to brainwash to kill that rebel leader? i know. lets brainwash his own family to do it"
19:08:19 <Taneb> They won't control us; we'll be victorious
19:08:21 <itidus21> "sure, it will mean families will no longer be able to trust each other, but at least we will have our victory"
19:09:01 <oerjan> I THINK I HAVE TO BAN YOU NOW FOR REVEALING TOO MUCH
19:09:36 <itidus21> things get bad when i rant on non-computing topics :-(
19:09:46 <Taneb> Counter balance this commotion
19:09:54 <Taneb> itidus21 isn't a droplet in the ocean
19:10:57 <itidus21> i'll be seeing the psychiatrist at my local doctor's office some time
19:11:12 <itidus21> psychologist/chiatrist whatever
19:12:18 <oerjan> elliott: you might want to delete User:Heliumint
19:13:06 <itidus21> my overall point is that you can analyze why some army might want to brainwash someone.. and when you do you for better or worse realize that it's just part of military life
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19:14:30 <itidus21> the fact that the cia spent so much effort on it is worrying to say the least.. i guess that means in reality all militaries have had equivalent programs which they were better at covering up
19:14:56 <itidus21> well all super power militaries
19:15:18 <itidus21> i somehow doubt burma had a program studying mind control
19:16:07 <oerjan> itidus21: um i think it was pretty well-established that the communists knew how to brainwash for decades...
19:17:03 <Taneb> One of the songs I quoted was named for a project such at that
19:17:31 <itidus21> oerjan: i guess then that in reality the intent to brainwash is the critical thing.. rather than the means
19:17:42 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving").
19:17:58 <oerjan> seems elliott had enough
19:20:34 <itidus21> so, if what you are learning from the computer in a mind-computer interface is math then maybe it would be good
19:20:53 <itidus21> since math doesn't really need experience of reality
19:21:30 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: . ? @ bf do ft id pl rc v wn
19:22:36 <itidus21> that would bring with it a whole slew of other problems
19:23:15 <itidus21> but anyway, since the self, society, world and universe, is in constant change... then knowledge needs to be somewhat localized
19:23:27 <itidus21> like you have to know the language where you live
19:24:03 <itidus21> its no good being fluent in japanese and chinese and thai while living in australia if you don't know english
19:24:41 <itidus21> and since even the languages change... if you learned a language.. you would need updates
19:25:22 <itidus21> but maybe you wuoldn't learn language
19:27:28 <olsner> why would anyone learn language?
19:29:12 <itidus21> i paid too much attention to "<pikhq> First, invent the direct mind-computer interface. <pikhq> Second, you know the rest. \ 15) IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <pikhq> First, invent the direct mind-computer interface. <pikhq> Second, learn the rest with your NEW MIND-COMPUTER INTERFACE. \ 29)"
19:30:06 <HackEgo> 254) [on egojoust] <elliott> The fact is that EgoBot's % handling is O(slow) and O(big), and mine isn't.
19:30:18 <HackEgo> 465) <itidus20> It's ok guys. I am doing what I can to keep my psyche and ego surviving. All the while the threat of ww3 looms, the mortality of family and friends(loved ones?) and sooner or llater my own mortality.
19:30:37 <itidus21> who the hell is this itidus20 guy
19:30:38 <HackEgo> 675) <shachaf> You should get kmc in this channel. kmc has good quotes. <shachaf> `quote kmc <HackEgo> 686) <kmc> COCKS [...] <kmc> truly cocks <shachaf> Well, in theory.
19:30:49 <HackEgo> 661) <Phantom_Hoover> No you can't fight crime in Glasgow. <Phantom_Hoover> It's like trying to get rid of the space-time continuum.
19:30:50 <HackEgo> 269) <elliott> 320 quotes and still not a funny one yet!
19:30:55 <olsner> itidus21: is that, like, your age in the nick?
19:33:09 <itidus21> i know a lot of them hate billy connolly
19:34:01 <olsner> crime is one of those things that make places FUN
19:34:37 <itidus21> we're due for Grand Theft Auto: Glasgow
19:35:41 <itidus21> further reason for that being:
19:35:45 <itidus21> "Rockstar North (formerly DMA Design Ltd) is a British video game developer based in Edinburgh, Scotland, best known for creating the Grand Theft Auto"
19:36:22 <itidus21> @google grand theft auto glasgow
19:36:25 <lambdabot> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICYt3MH0cwE
19:36:50 <olsner> edinburgh, the other glasgow
19:38:24 <Taneb> I thought the other Glasgow was in Ukraine or somewhere
19:44:09 <itidus21> i hate watching youtubes where the people in the video are all cooler than me
19:46:12 <Taneb> I once played a cool person on stage
19:47:57 <olsner> does that make you cool?
19:48:28 <Taneb> It makes me glad I'm not
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19:50:29 <Taneb> For a start, those leather jackets are really, really hot on the inside
19:53:08 <Phantom_Hoover> itidus21, funnily enough, my visits to Glasgow have always been fairly boring.
19:58:57 <Vorpal> why place it in Britan? They already did that back in GTA 2 iirc? (I know there has been a GTA in London!)
19:59:41 <itidus21> #hexhamproblems There's no GTA:Hexham
19:59:43 <Vorpal> why not do Paris, or if they want an English speaking country (understandable), either Australia or New Zealand
20:00:14 <Vorpal> New Zealand nature can be quite amazing from what I seen from photos
20:00:55 <fizzie> Yes, and GTA games are all about beautiful landscapes.
20:01:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, didn't San Andreas had a bit of country side in it
20:01:30 <fizzie> I've only played the first one. :/
20:01:33 <itidus21> video games are pretty much the greatest thing ever
20:01:34 <Vorpal> anyway you could do a city located in some amazing terrain. Like the side of a hill
20:01:52 <itidus21> i mean in the entire universe..
20:02:28 <Vorpal> oerjan, hm that might be fun. After all there are already boats in GTA IV at least
20:02:49 <itidus21> the whole process of evolution(or whatever) from bacteria to fish to land creatures to primates to humans.. and through the stone age and the industrial age..
20:02:55 <Vorpal> my suggestion: drop all the straight avenue stuff and offer winding streets and what not
20:02:59 <itidus21> all so that video games could exist
20:03:11 <oerjan> (hint: the joke is that venice is a no-cars zone)
20:03:32 <Vorpal> oerjan, dude did that ever stop the protagonist in any GTA game? ;P
20:03:56 <itidus21> i'm doing data-nerd research on video games
20:04:08 <oerjan> i dunno, never played it
20:04:23 <fizzie> He needs cars around to steal, anyway.
20:04:37 <itidus21> oerjan: well what it did really well was create a believable city
20:04:55 <itidus21> the game is made or broken on the basis that you get the illusion of being in a city
20:04:57 <fizzie> oerjan: GTA:ISS -- Grand Theft Auto in space.
20:05:20 <itidus21> like.. since a lot of it is driving in traffic or exploring
20:05:34 <itidus21> the illusion holds up really well
20:05:55 <itidus21> in the 2d gta's it's a lot of fun waiting at traffic lights
20:06:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway I do think that GTA set in a city on a hillside (possibly some Mediterranean setting) would be fun. Since you likely want a big city I would suggest making the old city (parts of the city core) like that. Then you could include suburbs that had a more modern layout better suited to high speed driving.
20:06:19 <itidus21> where else can you find a game which has cars at traffic lights.. that you can jump out and blow them up causing a pile up
20:06:23 <oerjan> Vorpal: monaco perhaps
20:06:36 <Vorpal> itidus21, it doesn't really in GTA IV IMO
20:06:36 <Taneb> Vorpal, who's winning your football? BBC is disappointingly ambiguous
20:06:47 <Vorpal> itidus21, the illusion is ruined by the relatively small size.
20:06:52 <itidus21> Vorpal: i think the originals are good though!
20:06:55 <Vorpal> And then you realize there is a lack of suburbs and what not
20:07:02 <Vorpal> I never played GTA 1 / GTA 2
20:07:34 <oerjan> wait, are the swedes still playing? i heard they had no chance of advancing
20:07:45 <Vorpal> itidus21, I played 4 and a bit of San Andreas which iirc is like 3.5 or something?
20:08:03 <olsner> oerjan: pretty sure swedes still play gta
20:08:20 <oerjan> but i guess they're not at the knock out stage
20:08:22 <Taneb> I think Sweden is winning this match
20:08:32 <Taneb> No, still group stages
20:08:52 <itidus21> gta1 is about fun i think. these modern ones seems to be about satisfying sadists
20:08:54 <Taneb> Association Football
20:09:26 <oerjan> Vorpal: your ability to ignore the world keeps flabbergasting us
20:09:28 <Taneb> As opposed to, eg. Rugby, American, Gaelic, Canadian, Aussie Rules, International
20:09:33 <Vorpal> oerjan, I know the word
20:09:39 <Vorpal> oerjan, just not in the context of football
20:09:52 <itidus21> aussie rules football is basically only big in aus i guess
20:10:03 <Vorpal> is it still the Europe-contest thingy
20:10:06 <oerjan> Vorpal: no i mean, not knowing there's a european championship going on...
20:10:07 <Taneb> It's called association football because it's administered by the Football Association
20:10:09 <Vorpal> I thought that was over already
20:10:13 <Taneb> itidus21, not in NSW or Queensland
20:10:28 <itidus21> Taneb: oh i forgot.. that it was originally VFL
20:10:57 <Vorpal> oerjan, I don't really pay any attention to such sports. And since I hadn't heard about it in a while on the front page of the daily news paper I simply assumed it was completed
20:11:01 <Vorpal> oerjan, I don't read the sports pages
20:11:01 <oerjan> (mind you i manage to shock the neighbor lady with how little i follow soccer, so...)
20:11:44 <oklopol> i watched a five second hockey clip by accident
20:12:08 <itidus21> Taneb: i don't follow it closely but i could rattle off a fair list of aussie rules celebrities at least.. so i guess that gives me that "i know something because i live here" feeling
20:12:17 <Vorpal> oklopol, how tragic. Did you manage to recover from the shock?
20:12:42 <Taneb> itidus21, I think my cousin plays it at a High School level
20:13:06 <Vorpal> oerjan, really football (soccer for Americans) is an utterly boring sport. You get maybe at most 2-3 goals in a match. Most of the time there is nothing much going on, just players running from one end of the play-field to the other.
20:13:10 <itidus21> like.. tim watson, kevin sheedy, sam newman, eddie mcguire, jim stines(?), humm.. then my memory starts to become slower
20:13:28 <Taneb> Vorpal, high-scoring does not mean interesting
20:13:34 <Taneb> Case in point: Test cricket
20:13:44 <Vorpal> Taneb, the issue is that there is nothing much interesting going on
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20:14:00 <Taneb> In those terms, maybe basketball is the best sport?
20:14:04 <Vorpal> I think if the play-field was made significantly smaller and the match time set to maybe 20 minutes in total, then the sport might have something going for it
20:14:11 <likethepage> Hello, Please check "Here Is My Vote" on facebook, like the page and join the movement. Please share with your friends. http://www.facebook.com/HereIsMyVote Best, Emilio
20:14:20 <Taneb> Or 5 a side football
20:14:25 <Taneb> `welcome likethepage
20:14:28 <HackEgo> likethepage: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
20:14:35 <olsner> oerjan: why would anyone want to follow soccer? or even be aware that other people are doing it?
20:15:13 <likethepage> someone sent me a link i thought i would share here
20:15:18 <Vorpal> Taneb, Hm I do enjoy fast esports for example. I watched some Shootmania recently (that game is still in alpha) and the rounds lasted like less than 1 minute each. A lot of fast action going on.
20:15:29 <oerjan> olsner: mystery of the ages
20:16:28 <olsner> I aim to be as unaware as possible when it comes to sports, but unfortunately I have heard of this european thing and have even seen parts of several matches
20:16:33 <itidus21> Taneb: i kinda feel bad that i don't get involved in watching sport much
20:16:35 <Vorpal> olsner, oerjan: exactly
20:16:55 <Taneb> This reminds me, I need to actually try to watch a basketball match at some point
20:16:58 <itidus21> maybe i don't know how to really follow the action on a tactical level
20:17:42 <itidus21> like it bothers me i can't actually list aussie rules players.. and i don't know what they did
20:17:51 <Taneb> itidus21, the answer is don't. Pick a team and support them right or wrong
20:17:51 <itidus21> or why some of them became commentators
20:17:56 <Vorpal> Taneb, High level starcraft can be semi-interesting to watch. I'm not hugely into it. Probably because I don't know the game itself well enough (and I don't own Starcraft)
20:18:13 <Vorpal> it has a tendency to drag on sometimes though
20:18:40 <Vorpal> <itidus21> Taneb: i kinda feel bad that i don't get involved in watching sport much <-- why would you do that?
20:19:10 <Vorpal> why would you feel bad over that
20:19:16 <itidus21> i'm too removed from my society
20:19:31 <itidus21> i have no fodder for small talk
20:19:43 <itidus21> i don't even follow the weather
20:19:47 <Taneb> Vorpal, have you ever read the Last Continent
20:20:06 <Taneb> Talking about the weather to Australians just makes them angry
20:20:08 <Vorpal> Taneb, I own the complete set of Discworld books
20:20:42 <Taneb> He's twice as Australian as I am
20:20:48 <Vorpal> Taneb, also I thought that was just made up for the plot of the book... (Wrt the no-rain stuff, since it *does* rain in parts of australia)
20:21:03 <Vorpal> itidus21, also when you study CS at university, you can make small talk about programming
20:21:27 <itidus21> yes but.. i don't actually have any programming friends offline
20:21:38 <Vorpal> itidus21, I discussed self-modifying .NET code as small talk with a guy at lunch once
20:21:41 <oerjan> blab bla bla blab bla blab haskell blab prepromorphism
20:21:43 <olsner> you can also join the emacs or vim faction
20:22:00 <olsner> oerjan: like totally zygohistomorphic
20:22:15 <Vorpal> itidus21, you will get them if you go for computer science or computer engineering at university though
20:23:21 <itidus21> but i can't really say anything in a sports discussion cos i don't know anything
20:23:37 <itidus21> big bang theory had an episode about this
20:24:17 <Vorpal> Anyway that guy had a strange fixation of screwing over Windows C/C# programs as much as possible by doing weird things.
20:24:33 <itidus21> the guys girlfriend is gonna watch the game with her friends.. so he decides he will go along.. so he studies up on the rules of the sport.. and then when they're chilling it he starts over analyzing everything as it happens in the game
20:24:47 <Vorpal> Made interesting conversation to begin with, but after a couple of times it gets a bit boring
20:25:16 <Taneb> IT Crowd had an episode about this too
20:25:25 <Taneb> Except that ended up with a bank robbery
20:25:26 <Vorpal> heh, I haven't watched either of those
20:25:46 <Taneb> Vorpal, two TV shows about nerds
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20:26:08 <Vorpal> anyway I don't even have a TV currently.
20:26:12 <Taneb> Big Bang Theory is theoretical physicists, IT Crowd is tech support
20:26:59 <Vorpal> nor do I plan to get one. Why would I need one. I can watch a lot of the Swedish public service channel content over the internet (legally, and for free). And there is very little of that which I'm interested in
20:27:23 <Vorpal> mostly just the new year celebration program. That is kind of a Swedish tradition.
20:27:36 <olsner> well, TV = a big screen for a computer
20:27:40 <olsner> you can get one for that reason
20:27:57 <itidus21> olsner: well one hopes thats not true to the BBC
20:28:00 <Vorpal> olsner, the wrong connectors though. Neither DVI nor DP (which are the ones I have)
20:28:21 <olsner> from normal viewing distance you don't care about the DPI
20:28:30 <Vorpal> oh I and watch the valvaka (translates to "election wake", but with none of the morbid associations)
20:28:31 <olsner> and good TV:s have the right kinds of connections
20:28:35 <Deewiant> There are TVs with DVI connectors, probably DisplayPort as well.
20:28:40 <itidus21> i think the idea is to shut up and pay the BBC whether you have tv or not
20:28:45 <Deewiant> (Assuming that's what you meant by DP)
20:28:51 <fizzie> DVI pretty much equals HDMI except for the shape, and all TVs have *that*.
20:29:17 <Vorpal> olsner, err I don't have a sofa. I prefer to sit in an office chair. I have a really expensive comfy one with lots of levers.
20:29:27 <itidus21> in 2013 the queen decreed that Australians should also pay for the BBC
20:29:28 <Vorpal> so yeah I prefer my computer monitor
20:29:45 <fizzie> A chair made out of nothing but levers.
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20:30:33 <itidus21> likethepage: well they could work out some negotiation under the table
20:30:46 <likethepage> i think each service has their pros and cons
20:30:50 <Taneb> BBC World Service is like the world's TV channel
20:30:52 <itidus21> we'll fund the BBC if you host our military bases
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20:31:13 <Vorpal> Taneb, for the English speaking part only I guess?
20:31:16 <likethepage> the problem with CNN and FOX is the newscasters become more like actors
20:31:48 <itidus21> i havent actually seen american tv much.. like real american tv
20:31:59 <Taneb> Vorpal, primarily the war-torn bits where the only domestic channel is controlled by the government, I think
20:32:24 <Vorpal> likethepage, for news I just prefer a news paper. Higher quality journalism. Especially higher quality investigative journalism.
20:32:27 <Taneb> likethepage, that's the media in general
20:32:30 <Vorpal> at least with SvD in Sweden
20:33:36 <Vorpal> likethepage, not the way it was in the high quality morning news papers here.
20:34:07 <Taneb> Vorpal, and Brits on holiday. It's in English, it's broadcast in Italy, and it's got less adverts than content
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20:34:10 <Vorpal> likethepage, michael jackson death was news like one day.
20:34:15 <Vorpal> and not major news iirc
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20:34:20 <fizzie> The Finnish national broadcast company (YLE) has this "TV Finland" for Finnish people who have the misfortune to live abroad.
20:34:32 <fizzie> It's broadcast through some satellites.
20:34:43 <Vorpal> I think the Swedish Radio has some sort of international broadcast
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20:35:07 <Taneb> fizzie, when I learn Finnish, I may watch that
20:35:10 <fizzie> I don't think I've seen it anywhere in e.g. any hotels, though, unlike BBC World which is just everywhere.
20:35:11 <Vorpal> likethepage, I doubt they have Swedish daily news papers there
20:35:53 <likethepage> but they are all over the world, they should bring those newspapers along with them.
20:36:19 <Vorpal> likethepage, as far as I understood they try to sell Swedish stuff to non-Swedes abroad, rather than carter for the minor group that consists of Swedes living abroad.
20:36:31 <fizzie> Apparently they broadcast it through "THOR 5" and it's visible pretty much in Europe.
20:36:33 <likethepage> someone sent this link to me if you are all interested in checking out... www.facebook.com/hereismyvote
20:36:52 <likethepage> they do not seem to care much for actual swedes
20:37:16 <likethepage> just market the "swedishness" and wait for the $$$ to roll in
20:37:32 <fizzie> They used to beam some radio channels into other satellites but they seem to have stopped that.
20:37:54 <Vorpal> likethepage, in Sweden IKEA pretty much just sell furniture and that sort of stuff. Sometimes there is a lunch restaurant in connection to it as well, and maybe one of those usual ice cream boxes at the checkouts. None of all that crazy stuff I hear they do abroad.
20:38:16 <Vorpal> well not just maybe. Ice cream boxes are everywhere
20:38:20 <fizzie> Though all the radio stations you can nowadays get through the interweb, which might explain that.
20:38:43 <oerjan> likethepage: i'm torn because you have joined the conversation - but if you paste that link again i _will_ ban you.
20:39:00 <fizzie> All Finnish IKEAs I've visited have had a restaurant. Not that it's a very special restaurant.
20:39:20 <fizzie> You can get a meatball discount with the IKEA customer card dealie.
20:39:26 <likethepage> i am confused what is the rule for link posts?
20:39:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, is Krauta (spelling?) Finnish btw?
20:39:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, they sell planks and nails and screws and so on
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20:40:30 <Vorpal> likethepage, it is spammy. You are self promoting in a way similar to a spambot on a forum :P
20:40:41 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's part of the same corporate structure as the "KKK SuperMarkets" I mentioned before.
20:40:53 <Vorpal> I'm sure someone can explain that better
20:41:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm we don't have that chain
20:41:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, K-Rauta is the only one I know of
20:41:34 <Vorpal> likethepage, well, cause promotion then
20:41:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, what does "Rauta" mean?
20:42:17 <Vorpal> likethepage, I wouldn't post links about amnesty international here either, unless that was relevant to the discussed topic
20:43:06 <Vorpal> (I haven't checked your link, I hope that was a different organisation than what you used)
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20:43:21 <Vorpal> It is unsolicited marketing. Whether it is a good cause or not is irrelevant when it is presented in that form
20:43:22 <fizzie> Vorpal: "Rautakauppa" (lit. "iron store") is the common Finnish term for a "hardware store" like that.
20:44:02 <oerjan> likethepage: well both your nickname _and_ the link url look suspicious to me. but in general, links should be relevant to the channel. and moreover, it should be _very_ relevant if it's the first thing you say when you join here for the first time...
20:44:06 <nortti> also when speaking of IT gadgets "rauta" can mean "hardware"
20:44:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, ah. Here it is "byggvaruhandel" (lit. "building commodity trader" I guess?)
20:44:40 <Taneb> Okay, England and France have advanced to the knock out stages, at the expense of Ukraine and Sweden
20:44:58 <Vorpal> btw, maybe we /should/ discuss something on topic for once?
20:45:14 <Vorpal> well we do when they happen to come up of course
20:45:23 <Vorpal> it is just that is never when new people join :/
20:46:39 <nortti> what is behind that link? (browser being in facebook blacklist, not having facebook account, etc.)
20:47:00 <Vorpal> yeah who has a facebook account? Google+ FTW! ;P
20:47:17 <Vorpal> (I have a Google+ account. I don't use it. I don't have facebook or twitter or anything)
20:47:45 <fizzie> You don't need an account to see it, but navigating the 'book was too annoying with the phone to try to figure out what it was about.
20:47:54 <Vorpal> I have root access to a VPS running nginx, it is enough if I need to upload something that doesn't fit into a pastebin
20:48:01 <nortti> I have Google+ but google says my browser is no longer supported
20:48:10 <fizzie> I've got a G+ thing too. I think I added a maybe-elliott to my circles.
20:48:27 <Vorpal> nortti, what browser is that!?
20:49:18 <fizzie> The maybe-elliott had the default silhouette avatar picture as avatar, except it was upside down, as I recall.
20:49:27 <oerjan> ok, the link is about whether iran should be an islamic republic (NO)
20:49:28 <Vorpal> Issue with facebook. If I go to like a public profile page and there are some truncated (by "...") posts in the section where stuff from their friends show up, it wants me to login to read what is behind that "..."
20:49:35 <Vorpal> you can just do view source
20:49:40 <Vorpal> and the full message is there
20:49:47 <oerjan> that's _very_ off-topic i'd say.
20:49:59 <oerjan> and a lot of comments in arabic writing.
20:50:16 <oerjan> i guess it's probably farsi rather than arabic
20:51:02 <Taneb> I think the maybe elliott added me
20:51:15 <Taneb> Or trapped me in a circle or whatever
20:52:29 <nortti> hmm.that facebook page shows me login dialog and nothing else
20:52:51 <Vorpal> I would personally advise against doing politic opinion in this channel in general. Politic analysis is fine I guess if there is nothing more interesting going on. (example: "Hey, X won the election in Greece, now what is going to happen to the Euro I wonder?")
20:52:51 <oerjan> likethepage: it's the kind of link that wouldn't be an issue if you'd been a regular here for months, but which definitely is an issue when you do it on your first day.
20:53:19 <nortti> and spam it twice in first hour
20:53:35 <Vorpal> no repeating indeed I would say
20:54:34 <Vorpal> speaking of which, /has/ any conclusion been reached with respect to the election in Greece?
20:56:03 <likethepage> it seems to be that nothing good has come of the Euro.
20:56:04 <Taneb> likethepage, the UK got a special opt-out
20:56:10 <Vorpal> they are on the Euro already. The issue is that they didn't manage finances correctly. So they are essential bankrupt
20:56:21 <oerjan> Vorpal: if we disallowed it altogether we'd have to ban pikhq long ago :P
20:56:24 <Vorpal> (apart from various emergency things)
20:56:32 <Taneb> Along with one of Denmark and Sweden, the other of which is sorta never going to use the Euro anyway
20:56:37 <Vorpal> oerjan, oh yeah right. I said I would advise against it
20:56:47 <Vorpal> Taneb, no Sweden didn't get an opt-out
20:57:11 <Vorpal> Taneb, iirc we just lie and say we are not fulfilling the requirements XD (This *may* be an urban myth, I don't know)
20:57:13 <oerjan> denmark has an opt-out, sweden is using tactics to avoid the issue
20:57:15 <likethepage> the point is prior to the Euro Greece was not doing well but they were not doing terrible
20:57:40 <Taneb> Vorpal, I knew that it was Denmark and Sweden, but not which way round
20:57:57 <Vorpal> I wish we would have gotten an opt-out though
20:58:08 <Vorpal> we just have to continue like this I guess
20:58:26 <Vorpal> oerjan, do you happen to know the exact form of that tactic? Is it just what I said above?
20:58:32 <oerjan> likethepage: presumably greece thought it would be good to join, even if they had to lie to achieve it
20:58:34 <Taneb> Vorpal, assassinate all the pro-euro greek polititians
20:58:50 <oerjan> Vorpal: more or less, i think...
20:58:54 <Vorpal> Taneb, I think that is the reverse of what the rest of Europe wants?
20:59:06 <Taneb> Yeah, but it's what Sweden wants!
20:59:46 <oerjan> Vorpal: except i think it's probably _technically_ not a lie that you are not fulfilling the technical requirements - but that's not because you can't, but because you're not at all _trying_ :P
21:00:15 <Vorpal> basically Greece would go bankrupt if they left the Euro. Currently they are managing to avoid that thanks to various emergency solutions.
21:00:38 <pikhq> oerjan: Perhaps even intentionally not fulfilling them. :)
21:01:02 <Vorpal> oerjan, what is the technical requirements then? I thought it was something wrt. the budget deficit or something?
21:01:34 <Vorpal> anyway it would be political suicide for any Swedish government to try to introduce the Euro. Especially now.
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21:02:38 <oerjan> Vorpal: i'm sure wikipedia knows all...
21:02:43 <Vorpal> There was a referendum about this a few years ago as well. Though iirc it was not mandatory for them to follow. Just "vägledande" (whatever that translates to!)
21:03:00 <pikhq> Vorpal: Could you gloss the morphemes?
21:03:31 <Vorpal> dammit I'm having to use google translate a lot when discussing this. I can manage just fine when discussing computers and such. But politics? Nope.
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21:03:55 <pikhq> Vorpal: "Gloss" in this context means to give a short word or phrase describing it, "morpheme" means, well, the individual parts composing a word.
21:03:57 <oerjan> i don't think the morphemes help much, it means "way guiding"
21:04:08 <pikhq> oerjan: Alas, not much help.
21:04:16 <Vorpal> (It isn't that I don't know the words. I recognize which one is the correct when google translate gives me the list. I just can't actively remember the translations)
21:04:20 <pikhq> Though in this particular context "advisory" at least makes *sense*.
21:04:25 <oerjan> but i think advisory is what is meant
21:04:31 <Vorpal> pikhq, yeah probably advisory
21:04:40 <Vorpal> google translate suggested "indicative" which just sounded wrong
21:05:42 <Vorpal> hm if I put in "vägledande folkomröstning" it suggests "consultative referendum"
21:05:47 <Vorpal> pikhq, does that make any sense?
21:05:47 <oerjan> afair all norwegian referenda are "veiledende", as there is nothing in the constitution requiring parliament to follow them
21:05:48 <Taneb> So, it's pretty much a government-backed survey
21:05:52 <pikhq> Vorpal: Oh, certainly.
21:06:01 <Vorpal> pikhq, more than it does to me
21:06:03 <oerjan> oh right consultative may be more precise
21:06:38 <oerjan> (although there have been suggestions to change the constitution about this, i don't _think_ they have done so)
21:06:48 <Vorpal> that was funny you know. We voted no to nuclear power back in the 70s or 80s iirc. But since it was just consultative they did the opposite thing.
21:07:03 <pikhq> And in the US there are no federal referenda, and the state-level ones vary by state...
21:07:20 <Vorpal> but yeah I think all our referenda are consultative as well
21:07:29 <pikhq> (hell, there's technically no national *elections* at all)
21:07:45 <Vorpal> but usually it is political suicide to go against the result of a referendum
21:09:09 <Vorpal> iirc the referendum about nuclear power was along the lines of "should we shut down the ones we have within x years and not build any new", so I guess they counted on people forgetting the whole thing when it was actually time to shut them down.
21:09:13 <Vorpal> but don't quote me on that
21:09:58 <pikhq> In fact, I think it's technically permissible for a state of the US to be a straight monarchy, with only the Representatives elected.
21:10:02 <oerjan> "Sweden maintains being part of ERM II is a required criterion and joining ERM II is voluntary,[3][4] giving Sweden a de facto opt out."
21:10:08 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_and_the_euro
21:11:23 <likethepage> first there was askjeeves, then there was ask, now there is wikipedia. wooo
21:11:27 <pikhq> Oh, wait, 17th amendment estabilishes direct election of Senators, too.
21:11:52 <pikhq> So, Congress must be elected, nobody else *has* to be.
21:12:28 <pikhq> The President is elected by electors, appointed by each state in a manner they choose.
21:12:53 <Vorpal> it is funny that our current currency is a result of an old Nordic monetary union (which didn't last)
21:13:03 <Vorpal> the name of it that is
21:13:07 <pikhq> And the federal government does not regulate how each state does any of their own elections, except for antidiscrimination stuff...
21:13:17 <nortti> pikhq: do electors have to vote for the candidate people voted for?
21:13:39 <pikhq> nortti: The electors do not even have to be *voted for by people*.
21:13:47 <shachaf> Vorpal: Are you in a golfing mood?
21:13:51 <lambdabot> (!!1)<$>transpose[show$sum[(8-i.&.3*4)*div(1000^2^n)(a^i*i)|i<-[1,3..9*2^n],a<-[2,3]]|n<-[0..]]
21:13:52 <pikhq> nortti: But, most every *state* mandates that, yes.
21:13:53 <lambdabot> [show(sum[(8-i.&.3*4)*div(1000^2^n)(a^i*i)|i<-[1,3..9*2^n],a<-[2,3]])!!n|n<-[0..]]
21:14:07 <Vorpal> shachaf, no. Also it was needed since I discussed an historical context.
21:14:19 <pikhq> nortti: It would be permissible for the King of $state to appoint electors to vote for a President.
21:14:41 <pikhq> And before 1913 it was also permissible for the King of $state to appoint senators.
21:14:54 <nortti> why isn't democracy mandated more than that?
21:14:59 <Vorpal> pikhq, they used to have kinds?
21:15:08 <pikhq> Vorpal: But it's permitted.
21:15:31 <pikhq> nortti: The United States *de jure* functions more like a slightly stronger EU than as a single nation.
21:15:48 <Vorpal> pikhq, in practise it is a lot stronger than that though
21:15:58 <pikhq> Vorpal: This is why I specified de jure. :)
21:16:29 <likethepage> the whole idea of EU seems somewhat illogical
21:16:29 <pikhq> I think the main de jure difference is member states are forbidden from engaging in declarations of war or treaties.
21:17:06 <Vorpal> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox_360_accessories#Messenger_Kit <-- why is this a thing?
21:17:49 <likethepage> if on the most basic level there is conflict
21:18:04 <pikhq> If it weren't for the ban on treaties, I think you could have something be both a state in the US and a nation in the EU.
21:18:39 <oerjan> likethepage: um avoiding new wars was a main _reason_ for the EU...
21:19:23 <likethepage> you have almost wars within these supposed "nations"
21:19:35 <likethepage> car bombs in spain by extremist factions of the basque countyr
21:20:01 <Vorpal> that is not from a separate country
21:20:02 <oerjan> well too much is swept under the carpet
21:20:08 <Vorpal> it is a county within Spain
21:20:13 <likethepage> greece always had several groups residing within this "nation"
21:20:15 <Vorpal> and yeah it is like IRA or such
21:20:56 <likethepage> and now it becomes "european" or "european-like"
21:20:58 <pikhq> likethepage: Yeah yeah yeah, hardly anything's an actual nation-state.
21:21:27 <likethepage> its internal issues must be resolved first
21:21:32 <Vorpal> likethepage, originally EU started as a trade treaty to prevent Germany and France from going to war again after the second world war pretty much
21:21:59 <likethepage> if they are goin to include turkey they might as well include Iran
21:22:00 <Vorpal> well so far it managed to prevent a war
21:22:35 <Vorpal> well, they are setting certain requirements that Turkey would have to fullfill first.
21:22:49 <Vorpal> They are not going to accept them in their current state
21:23:08 <Vorpal> Turkey. And hardly Iran either
21:23:24 <Vorpal> besides Turkey is at least partly in Europe. Iran is not. Calling it EU would be silly then
21:23:34 <Taneb> Israel and Morocco both applied to join the EU
21:24:13 <pikhq> Vorpal: "Europe" as far as the EU is concerned is whatever the European Council feels is European.
21:24:22 <Taneb> likethepage, so does North Africa
21:24:29 <Vorpal> right. So what? Sweden fought Denmark before in history. Later on we supported them when they fought Nazi Germany
21:24:40 <Taneb> And bits of North America
21:24:46 <pikhq> "Europe" de jure could include all locations.
21:26:14 <pikhq> With consent of Congress, a state can enter in compacts or agreements with foreign powers.
21:26:21 <pikhq> I think in theory a state could join the EU.
21:26:33 <pikhq> But could not make the Euro legal tender.
21:26:33 <Vorpal> pikhq, I'm not sure the EU would be all that happy about it though?
21:26:41 <pikhq> Vorpal: Almost certainly not.
21:26:47 <Taneb> It'd be interesting, certainly
21:26:58 <Taneb> If a state also entered the Schengen area
21:27:14 <Taneb> There's the US's border control pretty much destroyed
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21:27:38 <Taneb> itidus21, can I borrow your cloning machine?
21:27:42 <pikhq> Taneb: Not really. As far as I can tell, states *may* estabilish controlled borders.
21:27:48 <Vorpal> Taneb, ah the issue is that Schengen mandates border control against non-Schengen
21:28:07 <Taneb> Vorpal, does it? Hmm
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21:28:16 <Taneb> pikhq, it'd still be interesting
21:28:41 <HackEgo> likethepage: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
21:28:45 <Taneb> elliott, I already did that
21:28:55 <Vorpal> Taneb, yep. IIRC Switzerland joined and one of those countries that are too tiny to be on a map which have borders with Switzerland got annoyed due to the queues when commuting.
21:29:05 <Vorpal> Liechtenstein perhaps?
21:29:09 <Vorpal> this was a few years ago
21:29:19 <Taneb> It'd have to be Liechtenstein
21:29:27 <Taneb> It's nowhere near Andorra
21:29:28 <oerjan> pikhq: isn't that against the rule that interstate trade is only federally regulated?
21:29:44 <pikhq> oerjan: It's not that interstate trade is *only* federally regulated.
21:29:52 <pikhq> oerjan: It's that interstate trade *may be* federally regulated.
21:30:09 <itidus20> Taneb: yes but only if you will use it
21:30:21 <pikhq> oerjan: States are forbidden from imposing taxes or duties on their borders.
21:30:37 <pikhq> ... Without consent of Congress.
21:30:57 <itidus20> (. | for good. | for evil. | for good or evil. )
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21:31:16 <Taneb> itidus20, what's the one so I can have a clone of my own?
21:31:57 <Vorpal> itidus20, isn't there an option for true neutral!?
21:32:12 <itidus20> Vorpal: well.. thats the problem with these regex's
21:32:13 <pikhq> So, it is theoretically possible, I *think*, for you to hack a state into being a full member of the EU, modulo the Eurozone.
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21:32:26 <pikhq> And that's even feasible if the US adopts the Euro.
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21:32:50 <kmc> anything in law is "theoretically possible"
21:32:55 <Taneb> pikhq, didn't the states of the early US all have their own currency?
21:32:58 <kmc> it's just made up as you go
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21:33:11 <kmc> Taneb: yes, and also many foreign currencies were in use
21:33:12 <Vorpal> itidus20, hey just do (true neutral|(lawful|neutral|chaotic) (good|neutral|evil))
21:33:23 <pikhq> Taneb: Yes, but those were all either direct gold or silver, or not legal tender.
21:33:25 <Vorpal> (that allows neutral neutral, but I seen that used, so meh)
21:33:49 <pikhq> Taneb: States can only make gold or silver legal tender. But, there's nothing banning them from non-tender currencies.
21:34:22 <Taneb> Is there anything against a state passing a law requiring everyone to accept Euros?
21:34:54 <kmc> pikhq: it depends what you mean by "early US"
21:35:02 <itidus20> "<Taneb> itidus21, can I borrow your cloning machine?" Taneb: yes but only if you will use it (. | for good. | for evil. | for good or evil. | for (true neutral|(lawful|neutral|chaotic) (good|neutral|evil)).)
21:35:08 <kmc> i think under the Articles of Confederation, state banknotes were widely used
21:35:13 <kmc> "The Continental Congress printed paper money which was so depreciated that it ceased to pass as currency"
21:35:16 <pikhq> "No State shall [...] make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts"
21:35:21 <Vorpal> itidus20, hey you should remove the other options
21:35:36 <Taneb> itidus20, can I use it for neutral good?
21:35:37 <Vorpal> itidus20, you either go for the DnD system completely or you don't (And DnD 4 doesn't count)
21:35:44 <pikhq> Aw, "No State shall [...] coin Money"
21:35:52 <itidus20> Vorpal: ahh because the | implies the or
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21:36:14 <Taneb> pikhq, doesn't mean they can't force places to use it?
21:36:14 <Vorpal> itidus20, yes but saying "for evil" doesn't make sense here
21:36:25 <Taneb> And wait, are all the mints in DC or what?
21:36:32 <Vorpal> itidus20, you immediately asks if it is for chaotic evil or lawful evil
21:36:41 <Vorpal> or perhaps even neutral evil
21:36:52 <Vorpal> itidus20, never played DnD?
21:37:09 <pikhq> Taneb: There's nothing forbidding minting happening *in* a state.
21:37:15 <pikhq> It just can't be done *by* a state.
21:37:19 <Vorpal> in that case you could go play a game based on DnD (such as NWN)
21:37:33 <itidus20> the joke for me was "yes but only if you will use it." which breaks the expectation of the word for
21:38:40 <pikhq> Given how much *other* "consent of Congress" stuff happening, I think it would work just fine if the US Mint just minted Euros for states in the EU.
21:38:44 <itidus20> since it is heavily implied that a cloning machine's usage has questionable allegience
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21:39:55 <lexande> pikhq, err, why would the US Mint do that?
21:40:17 <pikhq> lexande: By "states in the EU" I mean "states of the US that are also in the EU".
21:40:28 <pikhq> lexande: I am discussing a really insane hypothetical.
21:40:37 <itidus20> like normally you would reply "yes but only if you will use it." if someone asks if you should buy something.. such as a bike
21:41:12 <itidus20> Should I buy that abflexer? Sure, but only if you will use it.
21:41:45 <lexande> i think the Canadian mint prints money for various third world countries
21:42:19 <itidus20> Can you teach me kung fu? Yes, but only if you will use it for good.
21:43:29 <itidus20> Master, teach me in the ways of the dark side of the force! OK, but only if you will use it for evil.
21:45:23 <lexande> pikhq, I think the existing EU treaties limit its membership to things actually in europe
21:45:57 <pikhq> lexande: Actually, they restrict membership to "European" countries, where "European" means "European in the judgement of the Council of Europe".
21:46:29 <lexande> where the latter pretty much means "actually in europe"
21:46:33 <elliott> lexande: there is a non-European country in the EU
21:47:23 <lexande> but represented by the Republic of Cyprus government which only controls the southern two-thirds
21:47:58 <lexande> however the Republic of Cyprus government was therefore forced to greatly loosen restrictions at its border with the TRNC
21:48:10 <pikhq> lexande: Please, I'm discussing a hypothetical scenario where Congress consents like a dozen different ways to a state engaging in a treaty that requires it to estabilish border controls and have a different currency.
21:48:18 <pikhq> Adding one more impossibility is not a big deal.
21:48:59 <oerjan> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9169046/writing-in-pointfree-style-f-x-g-x-x/9169089#9169089 sometime
21:49:14 <lexande> because the territory of the TRNC is legally also "in the EU" and under the EU treaties Cyprus can't interfere too much with the free movement of labour and capital "within the EU"
21:49:34 -!- variable has joined.
21:51:08 <lexande> on the other hand, Cyprus keeps saying they're going to join the Schengen area
21:52:17 <lexande> and the other Schengen states keep pointing out that Cyprus doesn't even control many of the points of entry to its "territory", much less have them up to standard for external schengen borders
21:56:17 <oerjan> ...what i'm missing here is the part which forbits northern cypriots from trading with the EU
21:56:31 <oerjan> if they're supposedly in it
21:58:33 <oerjan> conveniently wikipedia also has http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Cyprus_and_the_European_Union
21:59:29 <Phantom_Hoover> i think the eu is bad because britain should stand proud and alone
21:59:46 <likethepage> i think it has to do with me bringing up the topic of indo-european struggle
22:00:10 <oerjan> <Vorpal> speaking of which, /has/ any conclusion been reached with respect to the election in Greece?
22:00:46 <oerjan> Vorpal was of course triggered by likethepage as implied
22:00:57 <likethepage> their exports were doing great until they joined
22:02:11 <likethepage> but south europe seems to be damaged by it
22:03:06 <elliott> 20:49:18: <fizzie> The maybe-elliott had the default silhouette avatar picture as avatar, except it was upside down, as I recall.
22:03:11 <oerjan> likethepage: the germans are going to claim it's because south europe doesn't have fiscal responsibility.
22:03:12 <elliott> fizzie: Yes, that's me. I deleted my Google+ account.
22:03:19 <elliott> The avatar has stayed, though, and now shows in Gmail.
22:03:59 <likethepage> and they joined a very experimental currency
22:04:18 <oerjan> but spain specifically also had the real estate bubble from hell
22:04:43 <oerjan> which _should_ worry us norwegians, who have one which hasn't burst yet
22:05:08 <oerjan> likethepage: um that was like 70 years ago.
22:06:48 <Vorpal> <elliott> The avatar has stayed, though, and now shows in Gmail. <-- Can't you change it?
22:07:05 <Vorpal> <oerjan> likethepage: the germans are going to claim it's because south europe doesn't have fiscal responsibility. <-- that is kind of true though
22:08:41 <Vorpal> oerjan, you have the oil though. You don't need to worry. And even if it went to hell you are not in the Euro, so the collateral damage will be somewhat limited. So it is all well and good anyway
22:09:45 <nooga> greetings from Poland
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22:10:29 <lexande> spain had reasonable levels of fiscal responsibility before the crash
22:10:37 <lexande> they're just screwed over because the ECB are jerks
22:11:42 <Vorpal> lexande, maybe. Not Italy and Greece though
22:11:59 <Vorpal> also why was the real estate bubble allowed to grow like that
22:12:06 <lexande> italy is/was kind of borderline
22:12:29 <lexande> greece's fiscal situation was truly bad
22:13:11 <lexande> the others could be fine with monetary stimulus, but the ECB only cares about germany
22:14:31 <lexande> (so norway does not need to worry)
22:18:49 <oerjan> norway isn't an EU or Eurozone member. our problem is that the real estate bubble implies we should increase interest rates, but the crisis in the rest of the world implies we need to keep them down not to destroy all exports other than oil...
22:19:17 <oerjan> and the central bank obviously focuses more on the latter, leaving the bubble to keep growing...
22:20:44 <fizzie> How's it going with your oil, anyway? Still flowing?
22:21:13 <fizzie> http://www.energyinsights.net/cgi-script/csArticles/uploads/4690/oil-production-norway.gif looks kinda down-slopey.
22:21:18 <oerjan> sure, i think there've even been some recent major discoveries, although there _is_ a general transition to natural gas
22:21:44 <david_werecat> !bfjoust leviathan (>(+)*2>(+)*2>(-)*2>(-)*2)*2((-)*6<(-)*6<(+)*6<(+)*5<)*2---(>(+)*50>(+)*42>(-)*46>(-)*48)*2(>)*3(([(+)*4[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[(-)*38[+][-][+]]>{}]]]]]]]]]>)%21)*21
22:21:47 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_leviathan: 56.7
22:21:54 <oerjan> david_werecat: HEY NO BEING ON TOPIC
22:22:02 <nooga> we live on a sea of gas here
22:22:13 <nooga> but the only way to obtain it is fracking
22:22:18 <oerjan> david_werecat: OK THEN
22:22:27 <oerjan> wait, i thought quintopia had got his up to 60...
22:22:42 <oerjan> i guess you pushed him down then.
22:22:49 <nooga> and poland sold the mining sites to the USA for nothing
22:23:10 <david_werecat> I just don't know how it'll work with the new scoring system.
22:23:29 <oerjan> david_werecat: you're in some kind of mutual optimization game, then? does it converge? :P
22:24:03 <fizzie> oerjan: It would be hilarious if it resulted in exponentially increasing source text length.
22:24:11 <fizzie> oerjan: Soon they'll be pastebinning gigabytes of bfjoust.
22:24:46 <lambdabot> monqy: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
22:24:54 <nortti> well at least not spamming it to channel
22:24:56 <oerjan> fizzie: um i think ais523 has previously noted that he has to shorten his warriors due to length limitation
22:25:29 <fizzie> oerjan: They'll petition Gregor to increase the limits to a gigabyte in order not to be discriminatory due to physical attributes.
22:25:50 <fizzie> It's not like the programs can help their length, after all.
22:26:35 <fizzie> s/long/concisitually challenged/
22:28:20 <oerjan> fizzie: you realize there is a theory of BFJoust programming that treats everything as branching on [, giving depth 100000 loops...
22:28:44 <oerjan> and basically order 2^100000 length programs
22:29:34 <fizzie> I'm not well-versed in theory of BFJoust programming, to be honest. I hear you have to study in a monastery at least seventeen years in order to get a grasp on that.
22:29:35 <oerjan> well, maybe not branching _every_ instruction, but never executing ] if it slows down your strategy
22:29:36 <elliott> oerjan: i am glad the restrictions make that impossible
22:29:39 <elliott> david_werecat: i thought it was a megabyte or so
22:30:46 <elliott> maybe that's your pastebin's limit? :P
22:30:56 <oerjan> fizzie: i'm not well versed either, but sometimes with the length limitations you are forced to use precious time _exiting_ loops
22:31:16 <fizzie> oerjan: How philosophically repugnant.
22:31:39 <oerjan> while if you could always just go deeper, you would only have to execute [ or ] in places you want to
22:32:07 <elliott> thus messing up everyone's timed loops
22:32:07 <david_werecat> !bfjoust leviathan (>(+)*2>(+)*2>(-)*2>(-)*2)*2((-)*6<(-)*5<(+)*6<(+)*5<)*2---(>(+)*50>(+)*42>(-)*46>(-)*48)*2(>)*3(([(+)*4[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[(-)*38[+][-][+]]>{}]]]]]]]]]>)%21)*21
22:32:10 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_leviathan: 57.1
22:33:07 <oerjan> <david_werecat> leviathan = 1 line <-- kind of ironically named, then? :P
22:33:56 <ais523> elliott: that's an interesting thought, actually
22:34:02 <ais523> you'd just change ] to .] in existing programs
22:34:10 <ais523> but I fear it'd make triplocking invincible
22:34:31 <elliott> ais523: i think we came up with a way to break ] being free when developing the timing rules
22:34:31 <ais523> unless there was a one-cycle lag on ] (as in, it gave you the value at the start of the /previous/ cycle)
22:39:03 <david_werecat> !bfjoust leviathan (>(+)*2>(+)*2>(-)*2>(-)*2)*2((-)*6<(-)*5<(+)*6<(+)*5<)*2--(>(+)*50>(+)*42>(-)*46>(-)*48)*2(>)*3(([(+)*4[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[(-)*38[+][-][+]]>{}]]]]]]]]]>)%21)*21
22:39:06 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_leviathan: 57.4
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23:29:31 <Vorpal> so I played a bit more wind waker. Wow the sailing is awesome. The interaction with wind is so realistic :D
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23:31:14 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what no?
23:31:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Because I don't recall it being particularly realistic.
23:32:15 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you can in real boats too though
23:32:23 <Vorpal> it is slow, but it is possible
23:32:50 <Phantom_Hoover> You can sail about 45 degrees from the wind if your boat has a triangular rig.
23:33:24 <Phantom_Hoover> After a certain point you can't get any propulsion from the wind at all, the sail just flaps.
23:34:03 <Vorpal> I know this. I used to sail in dinghy when I was younger
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23:34:24 <Vorpal> Europe class, so obviously a mostly triangular sail
23:34:36 <Vorpal> (it is slightly curved)
23:34:37 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, simply going faster when you're sailing downwind doesn't make it 'so realistic'.
23:35:26 <Vorpal> and the boat can jump too, so that isn't very realistic either
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23:35:37 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, anyway you can't sail straight upwind
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23:36:26 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, by beating down the obstacle like real men
23:36:31 <Vorpal> we just get out and do it
23:37:23 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yes, haven't you ever been trained in that?
23:37:53 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what if you are swimming?
23:38:53 <Vorpal> you jump while you swim?
23:40:10 <Vorpal> you just beat them down. whirlpools are an endangered species due to that in Sweden
23:40:49 <Vorpal> well, no one told us that we could do that
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23:51:18 <itidus20> it's colder than ceres down here
23:51:35 <itidus20> humm do we have a weather bot?
23:52:44 <HackEgo> bin/welcome \ bin/wl \ bin/word \ bin/words \ bin/wtf
23:54:27 <itidus20> so i worked out that the kind of data i seek about games is a bit like video game archaeology
23:56:35 <itidus20> "Archaeology does not include the discipline of paleontology" !?!
00:02:13 <coppro> how the fuck do you even...
00:02:21 <Sgeo> What did MS do?
00:02:25 <coppro> apparently, in MSVC, if you define _HAS_EXCEPTIONS to 0
00:02:29 <coppro> and then include <type_info>
00:02:55 <Sgeo> <type_info> sets _HAS_EXCEPTIONS to 1?
00:03:03 <coppro> it declards ::type_info
00:03:15 <coppro> and typeid() has return type const ::type_info
00:03:26 <coppro> no std::type_info, though!
00:05:43 <itidus20> I am not sure what you might call the science between fizzie's Internet Game Car Database ( www.igcd.net ) finding.
00:06:10 <nortti_> hmm. should I write my os in lisp instead of forth?
00:06:23 <itidus20> It smells like archaeology or paleontology though.
00:06:54 <itidus20> a database where people collect sightings of real-world cars in video games.
00:09:34 -!- Vorpal has changed nick to Vorpal_.
00:09:37 -!- Vorpal_ has changed nick to Vorpal.
00:09:57 <Vorpal> <itidus20> I am not sure what you might call the science between fizzie's Internet Game Car Database ( www.igcd.net ) finding. <-- I'm half alseep but what does fizzie have to do with it?
00:10:14 <itidus20> he linked to that website the other day in here
00:12:08 <itidus20> either way it seems to me like a potential science
00:12:36 <itidus20> and time will tell if i'm the man crazy enough to found it
00:12:55 <nortti_> ^ul (x)(y)(z)a(a(a)~a*^*)~a*^*S
00:13:54 <oerjan> nortti_: btw i like to use (~aS:^):^ for debugging
00:14:05 <oerjan> ^ul (x)(y)(z)(~aS:^):^
00:14:06 <fungot> (z)(y)(x) ...out of stack!
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00:16:39 <oerjan> (a)~a*^ is a bit verbose version of ~a~
00:17:48 <itidus20> i guess i have to formalize the activity before i can determine what the proper name for it is
00:17:58 <oerjan> generally i think ~a*^ is overkill if you are not touching stuff deeper than 2 stack elements
00:20:04 <Sgeo> Dear person criticising Clojure at a Clojure conference: Stop reflecting on the nature of criticism and get to substance.
00:20:15 <Sgeo> (He did stop fwiw)
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00:49:53 <elliott> duplicate . fmap f, right?
00:50:08 <elliott> :t \f -> (undefined :: w a -> m (w (w a))) . fmap f
00:50:10 <lambdabot> forall (w :: * -> *) a (m :: * -> *) a1. (Functor w) => (a1 -> a) -> w a1 -> m (w (w a))
00:50:40 <elliott> :t \f -> fmap f . (undefined :: w a -> m (w (w a)))
00:50:42 <lambdabot> forall b (f :: * -> *) (w :: * -> *) a. (Functor f) => (w (w a) -> b) -> w a -> f b
00:51:50 <elliott> oerjan: can you get it to spit out the right signature
00:52:15 <elliott> duplicate :: w a -> m (w (w a)))
00:52:48 <elliott> \f x -> duplicate x >>= fmap f
00:53:02 <oerjan> um why is there both an m and a w
00:53:03 <elliott> oerjan: the idea is to have a comonad in Kleisli m
00:53:11 <elliott> based on something edwardk said
00:54:18 <oerjan> :t \f -> fmap f <=< (undefined :: w a -> m (w (w a)))
00:54:19 <lambdabot> forall c (m :: * -> *) a. (Functor m, Monad m) => (m a -> c) -> m a -> m c
00:56:14 <oerjan> :t \f -> liftM (fmap f) . (undefined :: w a -> m (w (w a)))
00:56:16 <lambdabot> forall b (f :: * -> *) (m :: * -> *) a. (Functor f, Monad m) => (f a -> b) -> f a -> m (f b)
00:56:47 <elliott> oerjan: might be. shouldn't it be (w a -> m b)?
00:58:21 <oerjan> :t \f -> join . liftM (fmap f) . (undefined :: w a -> m (w (w a)))
00:58:23 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *) a a1. (Monad m, Functor m) => (m a1 -> a) -> m a1 -> m a
00:59:34 <oerjan> ok wtf is the type of f supposed to be, exactly?
00:59:44 <elliott> f :: (w a -> m b), perhaps?
00:59:56 <elliott> (w a -> m b) -> w a -> w b
01:00:01 <elliott> (w a -> m b) -> w a -> m (w b)
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01:05:55 <elliott> oerjan: http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/v6ik6/a_notation_for_comonads_orchard_mycroft_pdf/c528kvc this was the source
01:05:58 <elliott> <oerjan> ok wtf is the type of f supposed to be, exactly?
01:05:58 <elliott> <elliott> f :: (w a -> m b), perhaps?
01:05:58 <elliott> <elliott> i'm not certain at all
01:05:58 <elliott> <elliott> the full type might be
01:05:58 <elliott> <elliott> (w a -> m b) -> w a -> w b
01:06:01 <elliott> <elliott> (w a -> m b) -> w a -> m (w b)
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02:44:59 <kmc> is there a good tool for computing a small brainfuck program to output a given string?
02:46:24 <kmc> clearly finding the smallest program is uncomputable, but i think you could do pretty well with a small bit of cleverness
02:54:25 <kmc> you could fix the strategy (as in Wikipedia's hello world example) of initializing n cells to some widely spaced values and then incrementing/decrementing those as needed
03:24:18 <Sgeo> elliott, monqy UPDATE also tswett
03:25:08 <elliott> kmc: There are many tools to do that.
03:25:14 <EgoBot> 131 ++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++++++++>++++>+<<<<-]>++.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>++++.<.>>-.<+.>-------.<----.-.<.>>++++++++++++++.>. [896]
03:27:56 <kmc> what strategy does it use
03:28:04 <kmc> !bf_textgen Hello, brainfuck!
03:28:30 <kmc> it looks like what i said, but how does it find the sequence of moves
03:29:51 <Sgeo> kmc, it's txtgen not textgen
03:30:26 <Sgeo> Because the author of the bot loves Microsoft... I mean, hi.
03:30:52 <Sgeo> (Were 8.3 names in use anywhere besides DOS originally, or is it all DOS's fault?)
03:42:30 <kmc> !bf_txtgen Hello, brainfuck!
03:42:32 <EgoBot> 183 ++++++++++++[>++++++>+++++++++>++++++++>++++<<<<-]>.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>..+++.>>----.------------.<++.<+++.>-.++++++++.+++++.<<+.>+++.<---.>>---.>+.-----------------------. [401]
03:55:52 <oklopol> kmc: i think Gregor said that it's some kind of genetic algorithm, although i've read the source and i have a hunch it was actually hill-climbing
03:55:58 <oklopol> this was years ago and i don't really care
03:56:19 <Gregor> I have literally not read a line of it.
03:56:21 <Gregor> I don't know how it works.
03:56:59 <oklopol> s/Gregor/elliot & calamari/ probably
03:57:10 <oklopol> elliott likes to call everything a genetic algorithm
03:58:07 <oklopol> did elliott actually call it genetic just now :D
03:58:17 <oklopol> "elliott kmc: 'genetic'" this is so delicious
03:58:59 <kmc> well it's easy to code a genetic algorithm which is effectively just hill climbing + noise
03:59:09 <kmc> but 'genetic algorithm' sounds cool so...
03:59:21 <oklopol> elliott: sorry, 'delicious'
03:59:29 <elliott> it's 'genetic' like oklopol is 'smart'
03:59:35 <Sgeo> Does delicious still exist?
03:59:49 <kmc> google is failing me
03:59:59 <oklopol> kmc: genetic is reserved for swapping parts of solutions.
04:00:13 <kmc> want to find information on the initial register state of a MS-DOS .COM program
04:00:16 <kmc> oklopol: i know
04:00:17 <oklopol> hill-climbing + noise = hill-climbing
04:00:26 <kmc> but it's easy to write a GA where crossover is never useful
04:00:30 <kmc> without realizing that you have done so
04:01:20 <shachaf> kmc: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3715618/how-does-dos-load-a-program-into-memory ?
04:01:31 <kmc> yeah, i don't know what "drive letter status" means
04:01:35 <kmc> failed to find that by google
04:02:22 <oklopol> "kmc but it's easy to write a GA where crossover is never useful" far easier than writing one where it is useful i hear
04:02:39 <oklopol> elliott: also "fuck you", i'm really "mad" at you now
04:02:42 <kmc> forever ago, i wrote a GA to solve knapsack problem
04:02:58 <kmc> for which crossover is trivial and (i think) useful
04:03:03 <kmc> but there are still better solutions to knapsack problem
04:03:44 <oklopol> oooh i wrote my bachelor's thesis on that
04:04:36 <oklopol> you mean just have a binary vector of which items you've taken, and then you swap parts of those?
04:05:30 <kmc> this was like 10 years ago
04:05:51 <kmc> i did it to figure out an efficient way to burn all my pirated music onto CD-ROMs
04:05:52 <oklopol> my intuition is that crossover is utterly useless :/
04:05:56 <kmc> for my MP3 CD player
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04:07:01 <kmc> MP3 CD player = best thing ever for like 2 years
04:07:36 <oklopol> the problem's just such a direct walk to the pareto frontier, whereas crossover is usually useful when you have multiple subproblems you need to solve.
04:07:59 <oklopol> if two items really need to occur together, how do you figure that out here unless you guess the right solution?
04:08:05 <shachaf> kmc: Why do you want the register state?
04:08:35 <kmc> shachaf: writing a polyglot program, want it to be a .COM file as well
04:08:43 <kmc> like http://www.nyx.net/~gthompso/poly/polyglot.txt
04:10:14 <Sgeo> elliott, monqy tswett ^ update, as mentioned 3 minutes ago
04:12:38 <oklopol> really knapsack and subset sum are an embarrassment among NP-hard problems
04:13:23 <kmc> you mean because the common instances are actually easy?
04:13:50 <oklopol> well knapsack and subset sum also because there's a fully polynomial approximation algorithm
04:14:23 <oklopol> you can get as close as you like in polynomial time ("fully" means that it's also polynomial w.r.t. 1/epsilon)
04:14:54 <Sgeo> Hmm, it's been a while since I played with Celestia
04:15:08 <oklopol> 3sat i guess just because common instances are actually easy
04:15:32 <Sgeo> Hmm, I should figure out how to see the recent transit in Celestia
04:15:58 <kmc> yeah the PTAS is a big deal
04:16:08 <kmc> i'm not sure what "common instances" for SAT really means
04:16:23 <kmc> because SAT solvers got really good, and so now people are reducing everything to SAT
04:16:45 <kmc> and thus have rapidly approached the frontier of tractable SAT problems
04:16:51 <shachaf> kmc: https://github.com/Henne/dosbox-svn/blob/master/src/dos/dos_execute.cpp
04:17:40 <kmc> shachaf: unfortunately that still doesn't tell me what's guaranteed by the "spec"
04:17:43 <kmc> but that's useful
04:17:52 <oklopol> i wasn't being very serious, i just haven't seen a good concise puzzle in the form of a 3sat instance.
04:18:14 <shachaf> I would think that there's only what Microsoft decided was worth keeping backwards-compatible.
04:18:17 <kmc> yeah i doubt there is one
04:18:22 <shachaf> Which is usually a lot, admittedly.
04:18:23 <kmc> that works as a response to both of you :)
04:18:43 <kmc> one of my recent failed projects was to use a SAT solver to run Game of Life backwards
04:19:11 <oklopol> i once has a summer job finding orphans in GoL
04:20:36 <oklopol> okay that may not have been completely true
04:21:20 <oklopol> it would be nice to know what the smallest one is
04:24:04 <shachaf> 21:21 <ceti331__> i'm a c++ coder, -> is burned into my eyes meaning pointer dereference
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05:29:17 * Sgeo bubbles at the Seer monad
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06:21:04 <kmc> in C, are unbalanced quotation marks allowed within #if 0 ... #endif?
06:25:46 <Sgeo> I would assume so
06:25:54 <kmc> gcc gives a warning and tcc gives an error
06:25:57 <Sgeo> The compiler shouldn't even see anything
06:26:02 <kmc> but i am too lazy to look up whether it is actually allowed
06:26:12 <kmc> well, the warning comes from the preprocessor
06:26:25 <kmc> so i could ask "in cpp, are ..."
06:26:31 <kmc> but afaik the spec for cpp is part of the spec for C
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06:55:11 <fizzie> kmc: "The source file is decomposed into preprocessing tokens" in translation stage 3, while preprocessing directives like #if 0 happen in stage 4, so what's within has to parse into proper preprocessing tokens, and a string literal is a single such token, so no. But unbalanced parentheses and such should be fine.
06:56:39 <fizzie> http://c-faq.com/ansi/ifdefsyntax.html
07:13:32 <Sgeo> I wonder if there's any fiction that uses Haskell's model of "time travel"... as in, I know Haskell doesn't allow time travel, but it can be made to look like it, and I wonder if the rules of such can be applied to fiction
07:18:55 <kmc> what are you talking about
07:19:05 <kmc> Sgeo: have you seen the film Primer?
07:19:16 <Sgeo> kmc, only twice
07:19:25 <kmc> the time machines in that film are a lot like call/cc
07:20:17 <Sgeo> ...I'm not quite smart enough to understand
07:20:48 <kmc> well you can only go back to the time when the machine was started
07:21:02 <kmc> and the original copy of you is still running around in the world
07:21:34 <shachaf> cpp knows about quotation marks.
07:23:04 <Sgeo> How about the closed time loops of, say, the Seer monad?
07:23:19 <Sgeo> Which still wouldn't let you easily factor numbers
07:23:41 <kmc> i don't know about that monad
07:25:23 <Sgeo> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/11060565/tying-the-knot-with-a-state-monad
07:25:32 <Sgeo> (The accepted answer)
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07:29:41 <fizzie> shachaf: At least with my compiler, that ends up being a string literal containing the string "#if 0b#endif" -- and that's what I think should happen, too.
07:30:10 <fizzie> Oh, that's exactly what you meant, I guess.
07:30:48 <fizzie> Anyway, it's just another way of saying what I said; that preprocessing tokens like string literals are built in stage 3, and preprocessing directives processed only in stage 4.
07:31:08 <shachaf> Actually on looking at what I said again, it isn't directly relevant.
07:31:20 <shachaf> The \s are the reason the #s aren't interpreted, not the "s.
07:31:30 <shachaf> "but, you know, that general idea"
07:33:09 <fizzie> The \s are the only reason the whole bit is legal, really, so I guess. But, I mean, you could also say that the preprocessor has to know about quotation marks in order for #define FOO BAR "FOO" not to result in a string literal that says BAR.
07:35:51 <kmc> /* "*/" */
07:37:14 <shachaf> I suppose the difference between comments and #if was your whole point.
07:38:28 <kmc> not really
07:38:38 <kmc> i just ran into this warning/error and wondered what the prescribed behavior is
07:41:08 <olsner> the way I understand it, the splitting into tokens happens "before" conditionals so the text in all parts of an #if needs to form valid preprocessor tokens
07:41:54 <olsner> but you probably already said that somewhere above
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07:44:54 <kmc> why does ghc barf on .lhs lines starting with #?
07:45:20 <stalem> hello all! sorry to interrupt any ongoing conversation, but i'm in the midst of designing and documenting a programming language
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07:46:01 <stalem> what i'm curious about is wether or not it would be considered esoteric, and for your deciding pleasure, here's a brief example/description of the language as of now
07:46:05 <stalem> http://paste2.org/p/2056626
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07:47:45 <Taneb> That's interesting
07:47:55 <Taneb> It reminds me of a combination of my ideas of Lisp and Basic
07:48:00 <Taneb> But I'm not sure if it's esoteric
07:48:03 <shachaf> stalem: "esoteric" is an emotional word, not a technical one.
07:48:06 <shachaf> Therefore, consult your emotions.
07:48:42 <stalem> Oh, so with that, it could be either, depending on the viewers taste?
07:48:58 <stalem> Taneb; makes me glad to hear it's interesting ^_^
07:49:44 <Taneb> Esotericness is in the eye of the beholder
07:49:48 <stalem> shachaf: my emotions want to say it is, but is in conflict wether or not it would fit in this mighty inspiring community
07:50:02 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
07:50:12 <Taneb> Some would say the language that's written in isn't esoteric
07:50:32 <stalem> I didn't quite follow that
07:50:41 <shachaf> Let's consult Mr. Eso T. Eric
07:53:32 <fizzie> Consult the Esoteric Language Council, a UN-run organization tasked with determining these things.
07:53:53 <shachaf> fizzie: Sometime I confuse you with itidus20.
07:54:10 <stalem> Either way, I humbly thank you for your insights and I'll def finish designing and documenting, and write up an article for esolang
07:54:22 <shachaf> Then I read what you say and I think "oh, that's not itidus20!".
07:54:34 <fizzie> But I don't even have a "20".
07:55:09 <stalem> maybe just the things you two say are very much alike?
07:55:22 <stalem> owait nvm, 'just the nick, i mean'
07:55:31 <kmc> shachaf: what language should i add to my polyglot?
07:56:07 <shachaf> kmc: What are you using so far?
07:56:28 <kmc> c, haskell, python, sh, brainfuck
07:57:05 <Gregor> http://tacocopter.com/ This is science. This is the future. This is America.
07:58:27 <Taneb> kmc, try to get Befunge in there
07:58:43 <kmc> i thought about it
07:58:50 <kmc> could be amusing but maybe one esolang is enough
07:59:01 <kmc> maybe i will remove brainfuck
07:59:03 <Taneb> One esolang is never enough!
07:59:21 <shachaf> kmc: You should add Objective C.
07:59:24 <Taneb> Did you see cpressey say "I've made Befunge, now time to stop"!?
07:59:45 <Taneb> Did you see dmm say "I've made Piet, no that's enough"!?
08:00:05 <Taneb> Did you see Taneb say "I've made Ook++, that's enough"!?
08:00:06 <kmc> "Did we give up when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? No! Who's with me?!?"
08:00:24 <Taneb> But that's because Ook++ really sucked and I didn't know there was a wiki back then
08:00:53 <kmc> shachaf: ooh, Objective C
08:01:19 <Taneb> What does this Polyglot do?
08:01:30 <Taneb> john_metcalf, Team America reference, I believe
08:02:06 <kmc> Taneb: no, Animal House
08:02:11 * Sgeo cackles insanely
08:02:15 <kmc> "fuck yeah" was a team america reference :)
08:02:30 <kmc> Taneb: prints "Hello, C!" or such
08:02:32 <kmc> that's all
08:02:50 <Taneb> I may try to do something similar
08:02:51 <kmc> now how to tell C from Objective C
08:02:53 <Sgeo> How hard could it be to write a Hello, Malbolge! program?
08:03:09 <shachaf> kmc: Oh, I meant that it would print the same thing in Objective C as in C.
08:03:11 <Sgeo> That's a polygot with other languages
08:03:21 <shachaf> kmc: Objective C is by design a strict superset of C, so that might be tricky.
08:04:40 * shachaf puts on a ring of polyglot control.
08:05:02 <pikhq_> I think it's actually the only way.
08:05:14 <pikhq_> Aside from saying "Well, it builds in Objective C too".
08:05:22 <shachaf> That's just using a ring of polyglot control.
08:05:58 <pikhq_> Now for a *good time* also make it Objective C++ and C++. :P
08:06:33 <shachaf> FOR A GOOD TIME $ printf '\e(0'
08:07:02 <olsner> kmc: how about intercal?
08:07:25 <olsner> if someone didn't suggest that already
08:07:55 <pikhq_> On a somewhat more serious note, but not *very*, it'd be quite impressive if you can make it a valid COM executable.
08:09:21 <Sgeo> Objective C++?
08:09:32 <kmc> pikhq_: yeah, i'm planning to do that
08:09:37 <shachaf> pikhq_: That's already on the list.
08:09:38 <kmc> http://www.nyx.net/~gthompso/poly/polyglot.txt is one
08:09:56 <kmc> Sgeo: two great tastes that go great together
08:10:28 <shachaf> So is Objective C++ a strict superset of C++?
08:10:52 <Sgeo> kmc, UTTER_XYZZY?
08:11:28 <pikhq_> It applies the Objective- to C++, as a hack to let you do C++ and Objective-C bindings straight.
08:12:08 <shachaf> And you have two incompatible object systems?
08:13:00 <pikhq_> Because you actually need at least *3* incompatible ways of doing something.
08:13:06 <shachaf> kmc: You should write a polyglot that uses the two incompatible object systems of C++ and Objective C together somehow.
08:13:16 <shachaf> Hmm, I guess Objective C is all dynamic and everything.
08:13:27 <shachaf> So the implementation is pretty different from C++.
08:14:09 <Gregor> I don't think anyone uses Objective-C++ for anything other than binding Objective-C bits to C++ bits.
08:16:21 <kmc> Lumpio-: oh yeah?
08:16:34 <kmc> care to elaborate?
08:32:09 <shachaf> kmc: https://raw.github.com/mauke/poly.poly/master/poly.poly
08:32:15 <shachaf> (Maybe spoilers if you're working on one yourself.)
08:35:42 <kmc> ah yes, i've seen this
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08:44:51 <Taneb> How are compilers made?
08:45:13 <fizzie> First you have a girl compiler and a boy compiler...
08:45:31 <monqy> Taneb: would you like a joke or
08:45:50 <Taneb> Ideally I'd like a tutorial
08:45:54 <monqy> oh no, the truth is out
08:46:24 <fizzie> You could read the dragon book, it's said to be good. (And, really: DRAGON BOOK.)
08:46:36 <fizzie> Also boringly called "Compilers: Principles, Techniques, and Tools".
08:46:36 <kmc> SICP ends with the construction of a compiler, of sorts
08:46:49 <kmc> i'm not sure it sheds much light on how a C compiler would be made
08:47:03 <monqy> one time I wrote a compiler
08:47:10 <monqy> it was an experience
08:47:28 <Taneb> I think I have more immediately important things to do
08:47:31 <kmc> one time i looked at a green thing
08:47:34 <kmc> it was an experience
08:47:55 <kmc> what happens if you access outside the bounds of physical memory on an x86 processor in (actual) real mode?
08:48:16 <kmc> it seems like this is a platform question, not a CPU question
08:48:23 <fizzie> If you don't want to make a good compiler, it can be a rather mechanical job. You know, the sort of "parse the language in question to some sort of a tree, and then just generate machine code directly out of the tree".
08:48:43 <kmc> fizzie: well, there's still sort of a trick of flattening that tree into a linear sequence of instructions
08:49:14 <john_metcalf> The Dragon Book is hard going. Something like "Writing Interactive Interpreters and Compilers" is much easier to understand.
08:49:21 <shachaf> kmc: That depends on what you're compiling into!
08:49:23 <kmc> not much of a trick
08:50:06 <kmc> so maybe out of bounds writes do nothing, and reads get 0's or 1's or garbage, depending on how the data line drivers are wired up
08:50:21 <kmc> or the address is simply truncated
08:52:43 <fizzie> kmc: "The IA-32 processors beginning with the Intel386 processor can generate 32-bit offsets using an address override prefix; however, in real-address mode, the value of a 32-bit offset may not exceed FFFFH without causing an exception." So if you have physical memory up to byte 0x10FFEF, you can't actually reach outside it.
08:53:36 <fizzie> (And normally if you actually are in a real real mode, the A20 line isn't enabled, so you're stuck in [0, 0xFFFFF], but that's a platform thing again.)
08:56:52 <fizzie> I suppose it's up to the platform what you'd get back if you have less than a megabyte of physical memory. They put a lot of memory-mapped things from A0000 up, anyway.
08:58:51 <fizzie> The gap that you're "likely" to hit in a real system is the one from 512k to 640k, since some people only have that half a megabyte of RAM.
09:07:53 <shachaf> monqy: is there a difference between monqy and mauke
09:08:36 <fizzie> But maybe there's some sort of a "mouqe" compromise solution.
09:08:54 * itidus20 pre-emptively provides more info.
09:09:09 <HackEgo> The friendship monqy is an ancient Chinese mystery; ask itidus21 for details.
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09:12:23 <Taneb> I'm possibly the only person who regularly gets mixed up between the Pet Shop Boys and Duran Duran
09:15:47 <itidus20> they're parties of musicians whose members tend to each specialize in a particular instrument
09:16:35 <Taneb> A t hat is a short-sleeved fedora
09:17:17 <itidus20> fizzie: gameontology is wonderfully absurd
09:21:33 <ion> I used to be a fisherman but then I took a spear in the head. http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2012/06/19/national/a112354D35.DTL&tsp=1
09:25:12 <ion> http://inogolo.com/pronunciation/Featherstonehaugh
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09:30:48 <itidus20> <cruzmoon> He needed that like he needed a hole in the head
09:30:48 <itidus20> <giantsmax> cross spear fishing off the to do list
09:40:49 <ion> "STOP! THIS IS NOT A DVD" - eBay seller screams in his item page. http://youtu.be/IOwTAiat1vg
09:43:36 <shachaf> ion: That person sure sounds angry.
09:43:57 <shachaf> But $1.99 for a Toy Story 3 DVD? I'd buy it no matter how much he shouts.
09:44:59 <kmc> this is added by the seller?
09:46:31 <ion> shachaf: Yes, it’s a good deal for a DVD indeed.
09:54:47 <john_metcalf> I just tried to buy one of those DVDs, but the seller died :-(
09:56:12 <ion> john: You should send negative feedback for not getting the DVD.
09:57:16 <fizzie> "Seller died, would not buy again."
09:57:53 <fizzie> (Though maybe e will get better.)
09:58:57 <john_metcalf> The video has had quite a few views. I should do something similar on my eBay shop. :-)
09:59:33 <itidus20> it's difficult to be annoying in a quirky interesting way
10:03:50 <ion> 2 € http://www.gog.com/en/gamecard/myst_masterpiece_edition
10:04:35 <fizzie> "Bonus content included for FREE with purchase: manual (17 pages)". Such magnanimity.
10:07:08 <fizzie> Sadly, I have two Myst (what's the plural?) already.
10:08:29 <fizzie> Okay, good to know. Two Mystery, then.
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11:17:42 <itidus20> Curse you http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Topology , curse you....
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11:18:47 <nortti> http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120619/03230119379/fbi-dea-warn-that-ipv6-may-be-too-damn-anonymous.shtml
11:20:02 <itidus20> there must be an easier way of learning math than reading wikipedia
11:22:02 <itidus20> maybe the problem I am facing is refusing to see the world the math way
11:27:45 <itidus20> nortti: well they may be right
11:29:50 <itidus20> although i think freedom is a nice thing, stability and security in life comes from predictability and constraints
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13:31:12 <david_werecat> !bfjoust leviathan (>(+)*2>(-)*2>(-)*2>(+)*2)*2((+)*6<(-)*6<(-)*5<(+)*5<)*2--(>(+)*50>(-)*42>(-)*46>(+)*48)*2(>)*3(([(-)*4[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[(+)*38[-][+][..-]]>{}]>]]]]]]]]>)%21)*21
13:31:15 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_leviathan: 58.7
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13:36:09 <Gregor> quintopia: WHERE'S DA CODE
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13:57:37 <oklopol> itidus20: for topology, wikipedia is very good
13:58:18 <oklopol> since mostly you need definitions
13:58:40 <oklopol> of course if you want to do research in the topic, i don't really know what you need, since i don't know what topologists are doing.
13:59:05 <oklopol> but our second latest article was kind of about topology and we just used wp and counterexamples in topology
14:00:12 <itidus20> one thing i am interested in is computer-less program design.
14:00:28 <itidus20> like having a whole software development studio without any computers in it
14:00:55 <oklopol> okay i doubt topology will help you with that
14:01:08 <oklopol> also i started playing a game :o
14:01:16 <itidus20> oh i have many interests. i have little choice but to rattle them off.
14:02:18 <oklopol> anyhow if you wanna get into mathematics, afaik you basically have to know the basics of topology, but unless you do topology specifically, you just need the basics
14:03:15 <oklopol> it's kind of a fun game if you have an infinite amount of time on your hands.
14:03:22 -!- Patashu has joined.
14:04:11 <itidus20> i'm borderline obsessed with video games. i would say completely obsessed if i invested more energy into learning about them
14:05:00 <itidus20> math is inherently a part of video games, even though i got in a bitter fight about how math is not essential for video games in another channel
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14:06:25 <oklopol> well you certainly need to apply some basic linear algebra to get a game engine working.
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14:07:07 <oklopol> but most of making a game is outside the engine and the math is elementary or nonexistent
14:07:49 <itidus20> yeah i think the science of computer games (the word video games is admittedly not very good) is burgeoning
14:08:18 <itidus20> or is it an art.. it's amusing to me how many scientists end up engaged in developing art tools
14:09:14 <itidus20> "aha we have made a breakthrough in the lab.. call the painters guild, theres a new kind of paint coming!"
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14:11:02 <oklopol> i would say it's much closer to art than science, there is no scientific method and you're usually scored based on packaging. then again perhaps that's how science actually works outside math anyway.
14:11:05 <itidus20> oklopol: ok what really happens is that, because of not knowing, i end up endlessly speculating
14:11:17 <ion> https://p.twimg.com/Avw0BNbCAAEZXV-.jpg
14:12:12 <fizzie> I'm confused because they called that one table-sized thing Surface originally.
14:12:15 <itidus20> like, like, i don't know how to do "algebra" .. that thing which 8th graders call "algebra".. im not in a position to use any bigger words
14:12:22 <itidus20> i am referring to arithmetic + variables :P
14:12:24 <fizzie> Apparently that's been retconned to SomethingPixel though.
14:12:59 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Surface_table.JPG see that's a Surface.
14:13:08 <itidus20> so.... when i try to meditate on numbers so to speak, i hit a dead end very fast
14:13:11 <fizzie> But I suppose they just zoomed it down.
14:13:44 <itidus20> like vroom vroom brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr **\CRASH3=\-\=3-
14:14:33 <oklopol> itidus20: usually algebra is arithmetic + variables but you're talking in a more general sense about other objects that satisfy similar axioms.
14:14:49 <oklopol> except for universal algebra where the axioms can be anything.
14:15:05 <oklopol> (universal algebra is great)
14:15:05 <itidus20> i tell myself, theres kids in africa whose daily drinking water is killing them.. and yet i cannot muster the energy to do the dishes
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14:16:24 <oklopol> what incredible laziness, that sounds really scary. well unless you're a 20 something male of course.
14:16:49 <oklopol> or a 30 something bachelor w/e
14:17:13 <itidus20> i found a piece of text where kafka talks about the bachelor
14:17:18 <oklopol> i'm planning to clean this place up by friday since i have a visitor
14:17:37 <oklopol> i've been planning this for two weeks.
14:18:36 <itidus20> It seems so dreadful to be a bachelor, to become an old man struggling to keep one's dignity while begging for an invitation whenever one wants to spend an evening in company, [...] to feel estranged from ones family, with whom one can keep on close terms only by marriage, first by the marriage of one's parents, then, when the effect of that has worn off, by one's own, having to admire other people
14:18:36 <itidus20> 's children and not even being allowed to go on saying: I have none myself, [...]
14:20:07 <oklopol> i agree, girlfriends are essential
14:20:49 <itidus20> i felt this quite strongly on my grandma's 90th birthday
14:20:53 <ion> http://www.hipsterhost.net/
14:21:12 <itidus20> all my cousins with their houses and their children
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14:22:03 <itidus20> me at a table with my mum, grandma, and the tradesman uncle
14:22:35 <fizzie> I tell our cat "there are cats in Africa who are not getting any food", but it doesn't seem to motivate it one bit to eat the dried-up stuff in its bowl.
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14:22:52 <ion> fizzie: The cat recognizes the fallacy.
14:23:19 <itidus20> fizzie: well, i do too.. the real threat is if you work too hard people will expect that from you
14:23:39 <itidus20> they'll let you burn yourself out
14:24:13 <oklopol> well who cares what they think, the real problem is you start expecting that from yourself. not that i see how this has anything to do with the cat. perhaps something.
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14:25:49 <itidus20> oklopol: well one thing i wish i could do was write an inverse kinematic animation engine
14:25:57 <oklopol> if you say that africa thing is a fallacy, do you also think it's okay for american spoiled brats to want a new car on each of their birthdays even though they already have a fuckload of nice things?
14:26:06 <itidus20> thats one place i think math would be useful for gaming
14:26:22 <oklopol> because personally i find them obnoxious, and i don't know many people who don't.
14:26:24 <itidus20> mathematically speaking i'm sure it's rather trivial
14:26:50 <oklopol> perhaps i'm just missing the point of the fallacy
14:27:16 <oklopol> what's an inverse kinematic animation engine
14:27:44 <itidus20> ok well.. suppose you have some skeleton
14:27:57 <itidus20> and you say, i want the right hand to go to this point
14:28:23 <itidus20> then getting the skeleton to bend some joints to get the hand to the point
14:28:49 <oklopol> i'm also interested in a generalization of this (called clue 2)
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14:29:23 <oklopol> clue 2 - you don't have a clue just how awesome it is.
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14:29:50 <oklopol> (i used the word clue in the official motto and that's also thename)
14:29:58 <itidus20> yeah, the subject apparently comes up a lot in robotics but it's like for fucks sake its not a robot its just a 3d model, someone is drinking too much if they study robotics to figure out how to make a 3d model move
14:31:08 <oklopol> well perhaps they want to do this with muscles to make it look more realistic. not that i know what robotics actually studies.
14:31:41 <oklopol> although i admit drinking too much is a big problem among inverse kinematic animation engineers.
14:32:07 <itidus20> _some_ people do get too carried away with the math side of it
14:32:54 <oklopol> well the good math usually only starts once you get so carried away you don't even remember what you're doing
14:34:02 <itidus20> the people who made the game N have got themselves lost in the study of robotics
14:37:11 <fizzie> I have a feeling that if you tell an inverse kinematic animation engineer to solve some set of equations, he or she will just be all numerical methods about it, instead of trying to find analytical solutions. At least if it's a hard enough problem.
14:37:59 <oklopol> also why make equations when there's random search
14:39:19 <itidus20> a few of the smarter people have started to do stuff related to skeletal animation over the years but it's yet to really be the next wave
14:39:39 <itidus20> well.. i think ragdolls are ugly
14:39:52 <itidus20> and the interfaces for them are horrible
14:40:00 <fizzie> I also have a vague feeling animation-wise they want some sort of consistency between the resulting solutions.
14:40:38 <itidus20> i want to make a skeletal animation character (in 2d) which is actually good
14:40:42 <oklopol> nothing that aims for realism is ever in the least bit interesting, so i don't really give that many shits about what the state of the art is
14:41:24 <itidus20> well theres :) realism and theres :( realism
14:41:54 <itidus20> sonic the hedgehog is :) realism
14:42:10 <oklopol> that's kind of a trivial game.
14:42:48 <oklopol> yay for timers that increase variables.
14:43:39 <fizzie> oklopol: Sonic the Hedgehog nowadays uses the Havok physics engine, I think there's a bit more math in it than that.
14:43:47 <fizzie> (Everything nowadays uses Havok.)
14:43:59 <itidus20> humm the 3d sonics get a lot of criticism..
14:44:09 <fizzie> Yes, well, understandably.
14:44:11 <oklopol> oh i assumed we were talking about the 2d version
14:44:29 <itidus20> i was, cos im retro-hipster-retro
14:44:34 <fizzie> I thought we were talking about the gene. Oh, wait, it doesn't have that "the".
14:44:36 <itidus20> ok so realism.. to expound a bit more
14:44:49 <itidus20> someone got very upset about the sonic the hedgehog gene
14:45:27 <oklopol> i have yet to see a 3d game that has an idea.
14:45:30 <itidus20> sonic the hedgehog maintains a narrative kind of realism
14:46:21 <itidus20> he stands on 2 feet(on the ground).. and he can walk back and forth at a steady pace
14:47:25 <oklopol> what does "narrative kind of realism mean"?
14:47:35 <oklopol> anything except "real realism"?
14:47:45 <fizzie> oklopol: Walking back and forth.
14:47:48 <itidus20> but some ragdoll games it looks as if some kind of invisible force is dragging a lifeless body about in the air
14:48:36 <itidus20> even though the ragdoll's joints react realistically to being dragged about in the air
14:50:01 <itidus20> i havent played many modern games so i'm out of the loop of realism
14:50:17 <oklopol> and you can't identify with the character if it doesn't look like there's a newtonian physics and a sequence of muscle contractions behind its motion?
14:50:54 <oklopol> who gives a shit, make the player a ball and the game doesn't change at all.
14:51:10 <itidus20> my comments about realism were wrong
14:51:47 <itidus20> the real problem is that most ragdoll games, all of them quite shameful in a way, are about dragging a lifeless body through the air
14:51:57 <itidus20> its an incredibly awkward interface
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14:52:20 <itidus20> i havent really played many, mostly seen them on youtube
14:52:25 <oklopol> well the necrophiliacs are a big market
14:52:40 <fizzie> Yeah, they should all play like that QWOP thing or whatever it was.
14:53:01 <itidus20> they're not a whole lot better than QWOP
14:53:08 <fizzie> Except with more keys.
14:53:49 <itidus20> QWOP was designed to be difficult though.
14:54:09 <fizzie> I don't think their point is in how you start things moving. To the extent that they have a point.
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14:55:24 <fizzie> It's a Finnish joke-demogroup who made the semi-known "Dismount" series of games, incidentally.
14:55:25 <itidus20> well, suppose that QWOP had some kind of AI that when you're not pressing anything, it tried to stand up straight
14:56:06 <itidus20> and that when you push right, it would try to approximate a stable run
14:56:52 <itidus20> and therein we find the beauty i am speaking of
14:57:04 <fizzie> The first one was released at Assembly some years back (actually what the what, it was a *decade* ago), and then they made a couple more for later years.
14:58:04 <itidus20> with my ego invested in such things, i actually hope that i might be the first to make such a thing one day
14:59:09 <itidus20> and so, the idea i guess is that when no keys are being pressed, it will try to use inverse kinematics to stand up
14:59:35 <itidus20> i don't know how feasible that is
14:59:47 <Lumpio-> fizzie: pffrt, tAAt is dead serious!
15:00:02 <fizzie> Lumpio-: Very serious business, sure.
15:00:58 <itidus20> and the kind of game i would like to make with such a system is .. among other things, something like double dragon
15:05:25 <itidus20> and i secretly love ragdoll games :((
15:05:41 <ion> http://research.microsoft.com/apps/pubs/default.aspx?id=167713
15:09:39 <oklopol> are people seriously still falling for spam?
15:11:04 <ion> If they didn’t, there would be no spam anymore.
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15:14:32 <oklopol> are you sure? maybe they're being paid by the spam filter ppl.
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15:37:02 <itidus20> so i analyzed my youtube history for relevant videos.. im not sure what the N months or years ago part means.. if it means when i viewed it or when it was uploaded
15:37:05 <itidus20> http://oi45.tinypic.com/5ml7cy.jpg
15:37:40 <itidus20> some of the zany things i have seen
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15:54:02 <Gregor> "Theremin controlled Mario"
15:54:09 <Gregor> I'll bet that's not even remotely fun.
16:01:54 <nooga> http://pastie.org/4121094
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16:29:04 <elliott> fizzie: You know, like, vim, right?
16:29:04 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 4 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
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16:48:36 <elliott> Gregor: You know vim, right. :(
16:49:50 <elliott> Deewiant: Do you have a ping on "vim"?
16:51:24 <elliott> Deewiant: How can I yank up to the next line which is just a } on its own? d% on the corresponding { sorta works, but I'd like to yank from the function signature line before it.
16:53:20 <elliott> Deewiant: Hmm, [[ and ]] seem to do something. But not [ or ] on their own.
16:53:38 <Deewiant> I meant the specific command ']['
16:53:56 <Deewiant> And the last two paragraphs of :he section
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17:33:52 <nooga> i just don't get the idea of writing some runes in a bar in order to edit code
17:34:01 <nooga> too much context switching
17:34:39 <olsner> Deewiant: if I remember the syntax, you can change ^ to \_ to find an indented }
17:35:16 <nooga> and you have to remember syntax
17:35:31 <olsner> but I'd probably end up doing something like Vj%d starting at the function line
17:37:04 <olsner> hmm, there is supposed to be special syntax for it, like how _ moves to first non-whitespace character
17:46:00 <olsner> I think the syntax I was thinking of was \_^ but that doesn't seem to mean what I want it to
17:46:56 <olsner> nooga: that's really no different from knowing the three million useful hotkeys you need to be productive in any other editor
17:47:32 <elliott> at least vim has a coherent language behind it
18:20:30 <nooga> no... major eval fuckup:
18:20:31 <nooga> > sq => (lambda (x) (* x x))
18:20:31 <nooga> > comp => (lambda (f g) (lambda (x) (f (g x))))
18:20:32 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `=>'
18:20:32 <nooga> > (comp sq sq) => (lambda (x) (f (g x)))
18:20:33 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `=>'
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18:29:14 <nooga> that's probably because interpreter's eval doesn't do anything with lambda
18:30:00 <olsner> ah, maybe you need to do something with lambda
18:31:30 <olsner> eta-expand? beta-reduce? apply a zygohistomorphic prepromorphism?
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18:36:21 <nooga> apply does B-reduction
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18:59:29 <Taneb> Who Is John Metcalf?
18:59:38 <Taneb> John Metcalf is john_metcalf
19:01:06 <john_metcalf> Taneb: my bio :-P "I'm a recreational programmer interested in Core War, Forth, Smalltalk, assembly, programming games & algorithms ? Find me at http://RetroProgramming.com "
19:01:31 <Taneb> How did you get RetroProgramming.com? Seems like a potentially much-desired URL
19:02:45 <john_metcalf> It was unregistered so I grabbed it. I also have http://programminggames.org http://corewar.co.uk and about 10 others...
19:03:02 <quintopia> john_metcalf: i was gonna say your retro programming needs a new bfjoust article. it has been 3 years. yours is out of date
19:03:09 <john_metcalf> It's a shame http://programming.??? are all occupied by squatters
19:03:31 <MDude> Are you a metal calf?
19:04:04 <MDude> Also, there are some new top level domains, maybe programming.xxx is available.
19:04:19 <Deewiant> programming.int appears to be free
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19:04:42 <john_metcalf> quintopia: hmmm... maybe. I don't think there's anything I can write that isn't already covered by the strategy guide.
19:05:18 <john_metcalf> I tried to buy corewar.com recently, but they wouldn't drop the price below $3k :-(
19:05:24 <quintopia> john_metcalf: then you can say that the game has become more complex, post a modern example program and link the guide
19:06:05 <quintopia> also the scoring is about to change...
19:07:13 <john_metcalf> Good idea. I'll do that shortly after the new scoring. A new article but with a link from the two old articles.
19:07:46 <fizzie> Deewiant: "The .int TLD is strictly limited to organizations, offices, and programs which are endorsed by a treaty between two or more nations." It may be slightly different to get it.
19:08:37 <fizzie> Then again, they had "ip6.int" in there, so maybe all it takes is a small bribe IANAwards.
19:09:10 <fizzie> On the bright side, there is no fee if you make the cut.
19:09:33 <Deewiant> But that was only when they were going to replace .arpa with .int. Nowadays it's ip6.arpa instead.
19:10:00 <fizzie> Yes, but they had it there, so certainly they can stick in whatever.
19:10:16 <fizzie> "programming.cat" is equally free if you just don't mind making it about programming in the Catalan language.
19:10:52 <Deewiant> "the application procedure requires the applicant to provide evidence that it is indeed treaty-based by providing a United Nations treaty registration number and that it has independent legal status."
19:11:45 <fizzie> Deewiant: I'm sure you could photoshop those.
19:12:14 <elliott> "lol.cat is a community tied by its love of cats, pictures supposed to be funny and Catalunia."
19:12:23 <elliott> I wasn't expecing there to be an actual Catalan link.
19:12:43 <fizzie> It's in the requirements, after all.
19:14:11 <fizzie> Also, "programming.museum" does not exist even though I would think there's at least one museum in the world about programming, or at least programming-related artefacts.
19:14:36 <itidus20> i was just reading a bit about salvador dali the other day
19:15:05 <itidus20> he described the earth as a head and catalonia as the nose
19:15:33 <itidus20> clearly i as usual dont entirely know what i mean
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19:23:20 <pikhq_> Betcha プログラミング.日本 is open.
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19:25:46 <fizzie> China has two IDN ccTLDs (.中国 and .中國), while Japan has none. Such injustice.
19:26:40 <pikhq_> Japan's not requested one.
19:27:11 <pikhq_> Also, China has 2, 3 or 5, depending on what you count as 'China'.
19:27:25 <pikhq_> Hong Kong has a ccTLD, and Taiwan has two.
19:28:12 <pikhq_> (traditional and simplified)
19:28:37 <pikhq_> I can't fathom why they have both.
19:28:51 <fizzie> That's funny, Wikipedia's TLD list says "Open for registration to individuals/companies around Europe" for .fi, while the Finnish Communications Regulatory Authority's (who actually run it) site says you must either be an individual of "15 years of age; have a Finnish personal ID number; and live in a Finnish muncipality", or be a company/company-like entity that is "registered with the trade ...
19:28:52 <pikhq_> Simplified isn't much used in Taiwan, and traditional isn't much used in mainland China...
19:28:57 <fizzie> ... register or the registers of associations or foundations in Finland". (Which I think have some sort of presence requirements.)
19:29:24 <boily> is there automagic mirroring between the two forms, or can one register a domain with a version and not on the other?
19:29:53 <pikhq_> boily: They point to the same DNS server.
19:31:31 <fizzie> That's not exactly proof yet. Also, they have non-identical SOA serial numbers, unlike China's two forms.
19:32:13 <fizzie> (Sounds a bit strange if the contents weren't identical, though.)
19:34:33 <fizzie> Two isn't that much; India has seven (भारत, بھارت, భారత్, ભારત, ਭਾਰਤ, ভারত and இந்தியா, for the Hindi, Urdu, Telugu, Gujarati, Punjabi, Bengali and Tamil languages, respectively).
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19:35:18 <fizzie> Comments in 'pedia say "not in use", though. But they've been allocamated.
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19:37:04 <boily> it's very strange to browse to a website with chinese characters in its domain name. a quick google with "site:.香港" gets this for example: http://网存.公司.香港/client.php
19:37:36 <fizzie> "TWNIC's Registration Policy and Technical Solution for the .台灣 and .台湾 IDN ccTLDs: -- TWNIC will implement a comprehensive registration policy and technical solution for the synchronized .台灣 ( xn--kpry57d , Traditional Chinese form) and .台湾 (xn--kprw13d, Simplified Chinese form) IDN ccTLD in order for ensuring the DNS stability and avoiding the user confusion. When registering ...
19:37:43 <fizzie> ... a "Traditional-Chinese-Characters.台灣", a set of corresponding registrations will be received at the same time, including "Traditional- Chinese-Characters.台湾", "Simplified-Chinese-Characters.台灣" and "Simplified-Chinese-Characters.台湾"."
19:37:47 <fizzie> So they are synchronized, yes.
19:38:21 <fizzie> Even in a way that you can mix-and-match the actual domain and TLD parts if you feel like it.
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20:20:25 * Phantom_Hoover has a sudden, unpleasant realisation that he will never be able to enjoy Monty Python and the Holy Grail.
20:48:30 <pikhq_> Severe memetic overload, no doubt.
20:48:44 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: Thankfully, most other Monty Python stuff doesn't have that problem.
20:49:10 <shachaf> pikhq_: "most other Monty Python stuff" is just stupid. :-(
20:49:12 <quintopia> the trick is to have seen it before the memery
20:51:37 <Phantom_Hoover> The problem is that a lot of the humour comes from unpredictability, and the constant quoting has the effect of spoiling the joke whilst removing it from the context that would make it somewhat funny.
20:52:06 <shachaf> I don't think doing things just for the unpredictability is very funny.
20:52:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Life of Brian is good because a) it's not quoted completely to death and b) it's more of a straight satire.
20:52:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Also when it's funny it's not just because it's silly and unpredictable; it's just a necessary element.
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21:37:01 <Sgeo> I am addicted to A Bit of Fry and Laurie
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21:51:03 <quintopia> sprunge has stopped printing the URL where your file goes. wtf sprunge.
21:53:26 <monqy> i have that problem too
21:53:57 <quintopia> i would think so. it is on sprunge's end after all
22:00:37 -!- quintopia has set topic: Food is just pals you eat. Here's a spork for ya. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | This is what the bfjoust hill will look like under the new scoring system: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=XEWnVMg8.
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22:48:08 <nortti> how do I quote ( or ) in scheme?
22:52:45 <nortti> I can't find a way to quote '(' or ')' in scheme
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22:53:26 <ais523> Mozilla/5.0 (Linux; U; Android 4.0.4; en-us; Galaxy Nexus Build/IMM76L; CyanogenMod-9) AppleWebKit/534.30 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.0 Mobile Safari/534.30
22:54:04 <ais523> I hadn't realised that UAs were getting even more complex now mobiles are running around, but in retrospect it was inevitable
22:54:07 <elliott> nortti: what do you mean by quoting
22:54:22 <nortti> elliott: for example you can quote a with 'a or (a b) with '(a b) but how do I quote single ) or (
22:54:24 <ion> I can’t find a way to quote elliott in scheme.
22:54:59 <elliott> nortti: that's an incoherent question
22:55:07 <elliott> ( and ) are not s-expressions
22:55:10 <elliott> 'foo is sugar for (quote foo)
22:55:16 <elliott> so '( would be... (quote ()
22:55:51 <nortti> yes. I want to put atom named ( in my scheme program
22:57:03 <nortti> yes if it is called that in scheme
22:57:24 <elliott> well, you can do (string->symbol "("). note that string->symbol will return a different symbol each time you call it iirc, i.e.
22:57:32 <elliott> (not (eq? (string->symbol "a") (string->symbol "a"))
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23:06:37 <Vorpal> Is it worth getting a screen protector for a smart phone?
23:06:44 -!- nortti_ has joined.
23:07:02 <Vorpal> Thinking about those fancy ones using the fancy material designed to protect helicopter rotors originally
23:07:07 <Vorpal> not sure how good they are though
23:07:27 <Vorpal> and gorilla glass is quite scratch resistant anyway, isn't it?
23:07:43 <elliott> they'll mess with multitouch
23:08:08 <Vorpal> guess a case of some sort is a better (though more annoying) investment
23:09:07 <elliott> you don't really need a case :P
23:09:09 <Vorpal> I meant for when it is in my pocket
23:09:51 <Vorpal> elliott, either that or I have to start carrying everything but the phone in my right pocket instead
23:10:03 <Vorpal> which could get a bit bulky
23:10:16 * Phantom_Hoover wonders what the main cause of broken smartphone screens actually is.
23:10:21 <Vorpal> since I tend to have asthma medicine in that pocket. Which is bulky in itself
23:10:46 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I'm not so worried about broken as I am about scratched
23:10:51 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, all of the breakages I've seen have been fractures radiating from a point on the edge, so I'm guessing you really need to cushion the edges.
23:11:11 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I seen that sort of thing radiating from a place in the middle of the screen
23:11:14 <Phantom_Hoover> If you're worrying about scratches some cheapo plastic things should do.
23:11:34 <Vorpal> they get scratched though
23:12:15 <Vorpal> that copter screenprotector and the "invisible shield" thingy (same deal, different vendor) seem extremely scratch resistant from what I have read
23:12:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Then use a casing for the edges and back, to protect against the aforementioned problem with the edges focusing stress onto the screen.
23:12:39 <Phantom_Hoover> And... do you really want to eliminate scratches, or stop them being permanent?
23:13:00 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well, not having to buy new protectors every few months would be nice?
23:13:32 <Vorpal> hm, not sure which solution is cheapest
23:13:43 <Vorpal> in the long run I mean
23:14:12 <Vorpal> until it breaks or I absolutely need a new
23:14:21 <Vorpal> that is what I always do with phones
23:14:31 <Vorpal> my current phone is maybe 7 years old now
23:14:58 <Vorpal> and kind of breaking, and no longer provides sufficient features for me
23:15:22 <Vorpal> I would say that with the state the plastic back of it is in now it is a question of months until it breaks
23:15:38 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so the answer is: "for a really long time"
23:15:51 <Vorpal> I'm getting a high end phone so I expect it to last for a while
23:16:04 <Vorpal> hell it costs almost half of what my thinkpad cost(!)
23:16:18 <Vorpal> (I have an R-series thinkpad though, not T-series)
23:17:08 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, didn't claim so. I meant that it should be sufficiently fast to run things several years down the line.
23:17:15 <Vorpal> and have enough storage and so on
23:21:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Well yeah, but what's the point if it breaks after 3 years?
23:21:22 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well, using a case should protect it against physical damage.
23:27:38 <quintopia> !bfjoust brachiation2 >-(>[(<)*3(+)*10((<+[{}(+)*50(>--[(+)*50(>)*8(([----[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[(+)*38[-][+][+--]]>{}]]>]]]]]]]]>)%21)*21](+)*50>--[(-)*50(>)*8(([----[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[(+)*38[-][+][+--]]>{}]]>]]]]]]]]>)%21)*21](-)*50)*15])%28)*28]+)*28
23:27:40 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_brachiation2: 49.7
23:30:12 <quintopia> interesting fact: brachiation2 beats fewer programs than brachiation, yet has a better score. any theories?
23:31:16 <david_werecat> I've noticed this about the scoring. Still no idea why, though.
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23:37:30 <elliott> quintopia: it beats better programs
23:39:10 <quintopia> also it beats brachiation. i wonder how much the score would go down if i beleeted brachiation
23:39:37 <david_werecat> quintopia: BTW, the most updated attack scheme is (([----[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[(+)*38[-][+][+--]]>{}]>]]]]]]]]>)%21)*21
23:40:18 <quintopia> nope that's exactly the one brachiation2 uses
23:41:07 <david_werecat> Really? It looks like (([----[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[(+)*38[-][+][+--]]>{}]]>]]]]]]]]>)%21)*21 instead.
23:42:03 <quintopia> !bfjoust brachiation2 >-(>[(<)*3(+)*10((<+[{}(+)*50(>--[(+)*50(>)*8(([----[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[(+)*38[-][+][+--]]>{}]>]]]]]]]]]>)%21)*21](+)*50>--[(-)*50(>)*8(([----[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[(+)*38[-][+][+--]]>{}]>]]]]]]]]]>)%21)*21](-)*50)*15])%28)*28]+)*28
23:42:05 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_brachiation2: 50.1
23:43:22 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_brachiation: 0.0
23:43:54 <quintopia> looks like brachiation2 went UP when i beleeted it
23:44:18 <quintopia> (of course, so did everything else, including leviathan)
23:45:57 <david_werecat> Wow, taking out brachiation causes leviathan's score to go up by 2
23:46:58 <elliott> this stuff was fully predicted and hashed out in 2009 :P
23:56:15 <Vorpal> elliott, hill effects?
23:58:37 <quintopia> but it won't happen like that under my system. brachiation2-in-the-absence-of-brachiation actually rates lower than brachiation-in-the-absence-of-brachiation2 under quintopia_scoring_system
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00:03:25 <david_werecat> !bfjoust quirtle (>)*8(>[([++[-[--[-[(-)*120(-.)*16>]]]]]>)*21])*21
00:03:28 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_quirtle: 37.5
00:04:05 <quintopia> i'm surprised it still works so well
00:06:12 <quintopia> it shouldn't. bumps its flag by enough to beat it
00:06:28 <david_werecat> !bfjoust quirtle (>)*8(>[++[-[--[-[(-)*120(-.)*16>]]]]])*21
00:06:31 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_quirtle: 37.7
00:07:12 <david_werecat> Another example is david_werecat_ill_take_the_stairs
00:07:32 <quintopia> brachiation also bumped its flag, but i deleted it :P
00:10:19 <quintopia> this is why poke is such a great strategy: you can change your strategy for every tape length
00:11:25 <quintopia> (i was only bumping my flag for slow rushes, not fast rushes)
00:13:24 <david_werecat> I have an alternate strategy for ill_take_the_stairs when you change it :D
00:13:56 <quintopia> i haven't looked at i'll_take_the_stairs
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00:15:05 <quintopia> of course, bumping flag only works on one polarity when the opponent is already on the flag
00:20:21 <david_werecat> !bfjoust quirtle (>)*8(>[++[-[--[-[(-)*122(-.)*12>]]]]])*21
00:20:23 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_quirtle: 39.0
00:20:41 * oerjan sporks quintopia ----(Z
00:21:13 <oerjan> by taking a couple of long walks
00:25:05 <oerjan> there is a lot of asphalt, but there is also a foresty coastal path passing almost next to this house
00:28:01 <david_werecat> !bfjoust quirtle --(>)*8(>[++[-[--[-[(-)*122(-.)*11>]]]]])*21
00:28:03 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_quirtle: 40.1
00:28:26 <oerjan> david_werecat: HEY NO POKEMONS ON OUR HILL
00:29:07 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
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00:30:30 <oerjan> bah i don't know enough pokemon to recognize any ais523 ones
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00:32:33 <quintopia> slow poke is a slow version of a poke strategy
00:32:51 <quintopia> and has sprunge started working again?
00:34:01 <oerjan> quintopia: no but it's just one letter off one :P
00:34:48 <oerjan> you should use hpaste just to get any random onlookers to wonder
00:35:22 * oerjan wonders if hpaste has brainfuck syntax coloring :P
00:35:38 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=P3ptiKeC
00:35:44 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 57.5
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00:36:16 <oerjan> quintopia: it's the main haskell pastebin, but it supports several languages
00:36:20 <quintopia> david_werecat: okay quirtle loses now
00:36:35 <oerjan> (also gives hlints for haskell programs)
00:37:08 <david_werecat> quintopia: Note that ill_take_the_stairs still beats space_elevator
00:37:15 <oerjan> it seems you cannot write in other languages in that box
00:37:16 <lambdabot> *** "14" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
00:37:17 <lambdabot> adj 1: being one more than thirteen [syn: {fourteen}, {14},
00:37:17 <lambdabot> n 1: the cardinal number that is the sum of thirteen and one
00:37:29 <quintopia> david_werecat: i haven't even looked at ill_take_the_stairs
00:38:27 <david_werecat> It's essentially quirtle with hardcoded offsets to beat space_elevator
00:38:46 <quintopia> yeah there's obviously no way to simultaneously beat quirtle and ill_take_the_stairs
00:39:26 <quintopia> except maybe something like shudderlock?
00:40:16 <quintopia> yeah looks like shudderlock beats it
00:41:03 <oerjan> it would be interesting to have a set of programs that were proved not to be simultaneously beatable
00:41:49 <quintopia> something tells me that we'll never achieve it
00:42:33 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_ties: 8.0
00:42:42 <oerjan> ais523 seemed to claim defence was broken, but is it broken completely or just in a rock/paper/scissors way...
00:42:43 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_ties: 9.8
00:43:33 <quintopia> oerjan: i'm pretty sure it's just "any defense strategy can be defeated by a rush, any rush can be defeated by a defense, and so on for any mix of strategies"
00:44:03 <oerjan> well that is not broken, i though he meant something more than that
00:44:28 <oerjan> like if there was a program which could beat any defense
00:44:53 <quintopia> that it was possible to construct a clear that would break any lock
00:45:27 <quintopia> breaking all locks does not imply defense can't be useful
00:46:04 <oerjan> any feature valuable against one opponent might weaken you against another
00:46:14 <elliott> <oerjan> ais523 seemed to claim defence was broken, but is it broken completely or just in a rock/paper/scissors way...
00:46:18 <elliott> ais523 no longer claims defence is broken
00:46:34 <elliott> coppro: nice lambdabot invocation
00:46:34 <oerjan> (which is the essence of r/p/s phenomena i think)
00:47:05 * Sgeo attempts to remember that thing that he and ais523 proved
00:47:42 <Sgeo> I think I remember the claim but not the proof
00:51:38 <quintopia> !bfjoust brachiation2 >->+++++(>[(<)*3(+)*10((<+[{}(+)*50(>--[(+)*50(>)*8(([----[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[(+)*38[-][+][+--]]>{}]>]]]]]]]]]>)%21)*21](+)*50>--[(-)*50(>)*8(([----[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[(+)*38[-][+][+--]]>{}]>]]]]]]]]]>)%21)*21](-)*50)*15])%28)*28]+)*27
00:51:42 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_brachiation2: 16.2
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00:54:50 <quintopia> !bfjoust brachiation2 >->+++++(>[(<)*3(+)*10((<+[{}(-)*50>(+)*44(>--[(+)*50(>)*8(([----[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[(+)*38[-][+][+--]]>{}]>]]]]]]]]]>)%21)*21](+)*50>--[(-)*50(>)*8(([----[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[(+)*38[-][+][+--]]>{}]>]]]]]]]]]>)%21)*21](-)*50)*15])%28)*28]+)*27
00:54:53 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_brachiation2: 46.7
00:56:06 <quintopia> !bfjoust brachiation >->(-)*5(>)*4(>[(<)*3(+)*7<<(+[<{}>(-)*50<(-)*50<(-)*10>>(>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](+)*50)*3 (>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](-)*50)*2(>)*7 (>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*22])%28]++)*22>(-)*115[-][+][-]
00:56:09 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_brachiation: 46.3
00:56:47 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_brachiation: 0.0
00:57:15 <quintopia> !bfjoust brachiation >->(-)*5(>)*4(>[(<)*3(+)*7<<(+[<{}>(-)*50<(-)*50<(-)*10>>(>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](+)*50)*3 (>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](-)*50)*2(>)*7 (>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*22])%28]++)*22>(-)*115[-][+][-]
00:57:17 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_brachiation: 46.2
00:57:47 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_brachiation2: 0.0
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01:33:51 <zzo38> I think the category (->) has Zero as initial object and () as final object, while (Kleisli Maybe) has Zero as both initial and final, and that (Kleisli IO) has no final object at all. In (Kleisli Finalize) all objects are final. Is this correct?
01:46:54 <oerjan> zzo38: assuming you are ignoring bottoms, that seems right except i don't know Finalize. also Zero is initial for any Kleisli m
01:48:24 <oerjan> assuming Finalize ~ Proxy, that would seem right too
01:49:06 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes I know Zero is initial for any Kleisli category too, and yes Finalize is the same as Proxy
01:50:27 <zzo38> And where Zero is uninhabited type
01:50:55 <zzo38> And, yes, I do mean ignoring bottoms
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01:59:28 <zzo38> I called it Finalize monad and its dual is Initialize comonad, which can be made with any category having final objects/initial objects. They are not specific to Haskell.
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02:14:46 <david_werecat> !bfjoust quirtle --(>)*8((>[++[-[--[-[(-)*122(-.)*11>{}]]]]])%21)*21
02:14:49 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_quirtle: 41.5
02:15:00 <david_werecat> !bfjoust lightning --(>)*8((>[++[-[--[-[(+)*14[-]>{}]]]]])%20)*20
02:15:02 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_lightning: 37.4
02:27:33 <david_werecat> Well, I do need to go now, but before I do: the clear takes advantage of the fact that most programs leave an even number of decoys.
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03:32:15 <tswett> Sgeo: did you see the potato?
03:32:42 <tswett> It's been out for about half an hour.
03:34:01 <Sgeo> Nope, thank yiu
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06:28:16 <Sgeo> tswett, elliott monqy ta ng update
06:35:46 <oerjan> <Sgeo> tswett, elliott monqy ta ng update <-- out of context that could be an interesting esolang...
06:36:25 <oerjan> not that those aren't esoteric.
06:42:54 <zzo38> What monads/comonads are possible in a thin category? Is it only the identity monad/comonad, Finalize monad, and Initialize comonad? Are any others possible?
06:43:05 <fizzie> What, a WordNet interface? So neat.
06:43:20 <lambdabot> *** "esoteric" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
06:43:22 <lambdabot> adj 1: confined to and understandable by only an enlightened
06:43:24 <lambdabot> inner circle; "a compilation of esoteric philosophical
06:43:46 <fizzie> (The *** line seems a bit superfluous.)
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06:58:04 <zzo38> As far as I can tell there would not be possible to have any monads on a thin category where distinct objects are unequal other than the identity monad and the Finalize monad.
07:05:29 <zzo38> Is there a proof, disproof, or counterexample?
07:06:55 <oerjan> what do you mean by "unequal"?
07:07:16 <zzo38> I mean as in a partial ordering; in case of categories, they would be not isomorphic.
07:08:25 <oerjan> well M x and M (M x) would always have to be the same object then, i think
07:08:55 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes it is what I thought.
07:09:59 <zzo38> Therefore, the only way it can make a monad is if M is the identity functor or Finalize, I think.
07:10:19 <zzo38> (And with comonads, also it must be the identity functor or Initialize)
07:10:27 <oerjan> i think you can have disjoint components behaving independently
07:10:52 <kmc> i made my polyglot program also a .COM file and it worked on the first try
07:11:08 <kmc> this is naked bragging but I am very pleased :)
07:12:02 <zzo38> oerjan: O, yes, perhaps you can have a locally final object or something like that, is that what you mean?
07:13:16 <oerjan> what if you take an arbitrary partial order and take the product with (0,1); then can't you make a monad which sends (x,i) to (x,1) ?
07:15:13 <zzo38> What is a product with {0,1}?
07:15:53 <oerjan> a partial order with underlying set {(x,i) | x in original partial order, i in {0,1}}
07:16:15 <oerjan> and (x,i) <= (y,j) means x <= y and i <= j
07:16:53 <zzo38> Yes, I can see that now
07:17:59 <zzo38> So in this case you have a product of monads; in the other case with disjoint components behaving independently it was a sum of monads, I guess
07:20:08 <zzo38> Since it is the product of the identity monad on the original partial order and the Finalize monad on {0,1}
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08:24:38 <kmc> why are system calls in DOS done through interrupts rather than an ordinary (far) call?
08:24:57 <kmc> (ditto BIOS)
08:25:12 <fizzie> You can at least hook them better when they've done like that, though I don't know if that has been the reason.
08:25:22 <fizzie> Also, no changing addresses.
08:25:36 <fizzie> Admittedly there could be a list of indirect-call addresses at some fixed location.
08:25:48 <fizzie> But that's pretty much what the interrupt vector table is.
08:27:27 <kmc> and the code to invoke an interrupt is shorter, maybe
08:28:00 <shachaf> Don't interrupts have a performance penalty compared to just a far call?
08:32:02 <fizzie> I don't know if there's much of a difference in real mode. It certainly doesn't do much more than an absolute-indirect far call/return, except for saving/restoring flags in addition to cs/ip.
08:37:32 <fizzie> Apparently it's possible to do pushf + far call to the start of an interrupt handler and things will work out right, if you for some reason want to.
08:41:29 <fizzie> Oh, and I guess "INT x" also automagically disables interrupts (clears the trap and interrupt flags) which might be useful.
08:56:03 <pikhq> kmc: I think so that the functions don't have to be at specific memory addresses.
08:56:40 <pikhq> The extra layer of indirection lets you change memory layout.
08:57:46 <itidus21> this is quite possibly the best individual work of super mario bros. fan art ever: https://sites.google.com/site/jinsdepositry/home/jp_mariofin05fnsm.jpg
09:00:36 <fizzie> pikhq: You could do that equally well with an indirect far call. (But admittedly software interrupts and the IVT pretty much pre-implement that sort of thing.)
09:04:14 <zzo38> In a MBR code I wrote once, to call the disk interrupt it did not use INT; instead it had the almost equivalent set of instructions, so that the return address would be different
09:06:39 <pikhq> fizzie: And it's CISC.
09:06:45 <pikhq> Why use 2 instructions when 1 will do?
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09:07:36 <zzo38> I gave one example; such as adjusting the return address
09:08:10 <pikhq> zzo38: My *point* was just that real mode x86 coding style prefers to use as few instructions as humanly possible. :)
09:08:47 <pikhq> Obviously, if you're doing that sort of hack, you want to manually call the IVT.
09:09:18 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, and I agree that too. However, there are sometimes you want to do things slightly different than the standard instructions
09:11:18 <zzo38> This MBR code first fills the screen with "p" black on gray (the color is actually the reason why it is "p"), and then loads the kernel.
09:14:00 <fizzie> I guess the indirect far call also means you'd have to clobber a segment register to hold the location where system calls would be stored.
09:27:42 <itidus21> correction: i concede there is no such thing as best art
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10:06:21 <itidus21> this next link is a wtf moment :-D
10:08:17 <itidus21> http://oi50.tinypic.com/2cgbj0k.jpg
10:11:05 <kmc> yeah windows XP, what the fuck
10:29:09 <fizzie> "My name is Johny, what the F**K?????"
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11:34:21 <kmc> h<|XP- {P_X(%GGG(%GGWZ- sh LI!XI!Hello, DOS!$
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12:58:53 <Phantom_Hoover> OK so the connection from my computer to my headphones is so noisy that I can hear scrolling.
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13:00:01 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't even know how this is happening; it's like the headphone cord is picking up induction currents from every wire in the computer/
13:05:19 <fizzie> Hearing scrolling is not very unusual, really.
13:05:41 <fizzie> I can hear mouse movements on one box if I use the integrated sound chip.
13:05:57 <fizzie> I got my external USB audio stick partially because of that.
13:06:35 <fizzie> Though I wouldn't immediately expect it to be the headphone cord's fault.
13:07:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah I had to switch to using a USB adapter because I think the front headphone socket is broken,.
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13:14:23 <fizzie> "I can hear all sorts of things. the most notable is dragging windows around or when web pages load. I can also hear transferring files. The variation on timbre per click is kind of interesting. Copying files will produce a higher pitched tone than loading a web page, for example. Dragging scrollbars will produce more of a staticy sound than a click."
13:14:35 <fizzie> I see some people devote time to learning how their computer sounds like.
13:19:06 <fizzie> I have a vague recollection of one noise problem solved by muting the CD audio input; presumably the analog CD audio wire from the optical drive was picking up those noises. But that'd probably come through non-headphone playback at the same relative volume if it were the case. (Also not sure if modern optical drives even bother including analog CD-audio.)
13:20:31 <fizzie> I can see through my OpenOffice Writer window. :/
13:21:23 <fizzie> Also a picture embedded on one page is upside-down, but that might be the document author's fault.
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13:31:27 <Gregor> Why does the Purdue Bursar's Office send me a billing statement of $0 ...
13:31:37 <Gregor> I have to pay this $0 before July, too.
13:36:44 <fizzie> You'd better act fast, then.
13:37:28 <fizzie> I got a $0 bill the other day, too. It had just a row of stars in place of the reference number, but it did have recipient bank account info and a sum.
13:37:32 <Gregor> If I don't pay in time, they'll charge me a late fee...
13:37:50 <fizzie> Gregor: Sadly, the late fee is probably a fixed sum, and not a fraction of the $0.
13:38:25 <Gregor> Or "¼ the owed fee, minus $50"
13:38:34 <itidus21> I don't know which is which between debit and credit
13:39:00 <itidus21> but sounds like you have $0 credit with them, whereas i have $0 debit with them
13:39:06 <Gregor> But to your credit, you haven't any debit.
13:39:53 <Vorpal> (Also not sure if modern optical drives even bother including analog CD-audio.) <-- mine doesn't have that
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13:41:03 <itidus21> anyway it sounds like the -0 +0 problem
13:41:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, so yeah analogue CD-audio is dying
13:41:53 <Vorpal> or rather, it makes no difference if it is
13:41:57 <fizzie> I have a feeling that my most recent (SATA) optical drive didn't have CD audio either.
13:42:06 <Vorpal> two-complement and unsigned both works for brainfuck
13:42:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, yeah, neither of my more modern DVD drives have that
13:42:32 <itidus21> if [] was skipped over for +0 but not -0
13:42:40 <Vorpal> (though one of them don't really count, it is ultrabay)
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13:42:59 <Vorpal> itidus21, what are you talking about? There is just one zero in two-complement
13:43:08 <Vorpal> or are you talking about sign bit?
13:43:18 <Vorpal> which nobody uses due to the dual zero issue!
13:43:18 <fizzie> Ultraboy, a superhero that lives in an Ultrabay slot.
13:43:31 <itidus21> it's my analogy to gregor's debts
13:43:55 <Vorpal> itidus21, right, which doesn't work in two-complement. Which is what everybody uses
13:44:12 <fizzie> Certainly people use a "sign bit", just not sign-magnitude. (Well, except if you count floats.)
13:44:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, floating point is irrelevant to brainfuck though
13:44:59 <Vorpal> Gregor, I guess you should call them and ask wtf they are high on :P
13:45:47 <fizzie> I see C11 still obeys the traditions and allows one's-complement and sign-and-magnitude.
13:45:55 <itidus21> i think thats what i mean anyway
13:46:07 <Vorpal> itidus21, I have no idea what you mean by that though
13:46:09 <itidus21> where it is waiting for +1 as an input
13:46:32 <itidus21> but if the cell is 1 .. then the - operation reduces it down to -0
13:46:42 <Gregor> fizzie: Technically speaking, C11 probably allows you to implement ints as floats that you always truncate.
13:46:47 <Vorpal> itidus21, do you even understand what two-complement is?
13:46:51 <itidus21> im out of my mind, some would call it trolling
13:46:53 <Gregor> (i.e. it doesn't give two shits about the representation)
13:47:38 <itidus21> maybe i should try and talk logically
13:48:53 <fizzie> Gregor: No, it doesn't. Neither did C99.
13:49:19 <itidus21> ha ha. that was an amusing bureaucratic error they pulled. this has no rational relationship with number polarity or brainfuck.
13:49:21 <Gregor> fizzie: Is that no, it doesn't allow you to represent them that way, or no, it doesn't give two shits about the representation?
13:50:07 <fizzie> No, it doesn't allow them. It does give shits about the representation. Except in that particular case you might be able to make it work as long as you consider the exponent parts of the float padding bits.
13:50:26 <Gregor> quintopia: You notice how I never "hi" anyone, I just leap into conversations?
13:50:59 <Vorpal> Gregor, hello there! greetings!
13:51:11 <fizzie> "For signed integer types, the bits of the object representation shall be divided into three groups: value bits, padding bits, and the sign bit. -- Each bit that is a value bit shall have the same value as the same bit in the object representation of the corresponding unsigned type. -- If the sign bit is one, the value shall be modified in one of the following ways: [list of ...
13:51:17 <itidus21> i do that. i think a lot of bandwidth is wasted on greetings
13:51:17 <fizzie> ... sign-and-magnitude, two's-complement and one's-complement]"
13:51:27 <Gregor> Vorpal: That pain in your stomach is the blade. Don't think too much about it, the pain will be gone soon. Just breaaaathe.
13:51:59 <fizzie> And as for the value bits of unsigned integer types, "each bit shall represent a different power of 2 between 1 and 2^(N-1)".
13:52:13 <Vorpal> itidus21, only 3 packets: SYN, SYN-ACK, ACK (in TCP)
13:52:19 <itidus21> worst case scenario is a mandatory "i'm back!" every time someone joins a channel, and mandatory "i'm leaving" before quitting or lefting
13:52:47 <Gregor> quintopia: Where's the damned cooooode!
13:52:48 <Vorpal> Gregor, well I will continue greeting people.
13:53:22 <quintopia> Gregor: are you going to install it RIGHT THE FUCK NOW?
13:53:32 <Gregor> Probably not, but it's not impossible.
13:53:43 <Vorpal> quintopia, code for what?
13:54:06 <quintopia> then i'll send it when i get home from work rather than stressing about it now
13:54:36 <Vorpal> quintopia, mail a copy on a CD :P
13:54:44 <quintopia> then i'll send it to my private server and not give you access
13:54:55 <Gregor> quintopia: Can't you just ... put it online somewhere and give me a URL? Email is so clunky.
13:55:22 <Vorpal> quintopia, Gregor: what is the code for?
13:55:34 <Gregor> Vorpal: New BF Joust hill scoring system.
13:56:02 <Gregor> In almost every conceivable way... but you'd have to ask quintopia for the actual algorithmic details.
13:56:25 <Gregor> As I recall, it's a proper fixed point. But we talked about it MONTHS ago.
13:56:29 <quintopia> well, it gives Gregor a hand job every time a new program is submitted. this is the most important feature.
13:56:32 <Vorpal> quintopia, what are the algorithmic differences?
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13:57:04 <itidus21> I think bfjoust really exemplifies programmable robot tournaments
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13:58:04 <quintopia> i think it really exemplifies "you're nuts"
13:59:12 <itidus21> i once had a plan for a game which exemplified the serious business trope, where there would be remote control robot tournaments in an arena
13:59:22 <itidus21> and the whole society around it would be simulated
13:59:59 <itidus21> but i never quite felt that it was a strong enough basis for a society
14:01:32 <itidus21> but battling robots by remote control, no
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14:01:52 <itidus21> battling robots by pre-programming would be too geek for me
14:03:11 <itidus21> well i think it is implied in things like bfjoust that actual systems could compete along similar lines
14:04:35 <fizzie> Are any of those TV series robot battles doing it right i.e. no remote controls? I haven't been paying attention.
14:04:38 <quintopia> as far as robots go, bfjoust warriors have the poorest sensors and the weakest attacks :P
14:05:15 <quintopia> fizzie: battle bots had an "autonomous class" once, but it wasn't very good.
14:05:40 <quintopia> robocup is the only serious competition along those lines these days
14:06:59 <itidus21> i think bfjoust is like an aggressive form of golf
14:07:24 <fizzie> I think the aggressive form of golf is where you hit other people with the clubs.
14:07:43 <itidus21> like suppose there was a golf course where the ball could trigger walls to go up by landing on certain zones
14:08:36 <itidus21> yes, i have imagination and am proud of it >.<
14:09:03 <quintopia> there is a certain amount of golfing of programs required
14:09:21 <itidus21> in minigolf it could be that there was some pressure censor which could make the doors close
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14:09:35 <itidus21> on one of those buildings on the courses
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14:09:50 <fizzie> Computer minigolf games always have that kind of fluff, I'm not sure how feasible that is in real reality.
14:09:57 <Vorpal> itidus21 you mean sensor?
14:10:02 <Vorpal> itidus21, rather than censor surely
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14:10:27 <itidus21> yeah i fnord meant sensor, but i don't know fnord why i typed censor
14:11:03 <itidus21> because typing sensor as censor is creepy
14:12:33 <itidus21> anyway.. fizzie i didn't know that about computer golf games
14:12:49 <itidus21> fizzie: of course it's feasible though :P
14:13:40 <itidus21> the course would need some way to know when to do the sensing though
14:13:59 <itidus21> it could be an informal rule not to step on the sensors
14:14:19 <itidus21> but it only really matters during a swing
14:14:51 <itidus21> and you could have little fences emerge from the field
14:14:55 <fizzie> I mean "feasible" in the "makes business sense" sense.
14:15:00 <fizzie> Of course it's physically possible.
14:15:20 <fizzie> Sounds like in a mostly-unattended course that sort of stuff would just forever be getting stuck or whatnot.
14:15:32 <itidus21> i was also referring to code golfing too indirectly
14:16:25 <itidus21> since bfjoust against a static unchanging opponent amounts to code golf
14:16:58 <quintopia> not really. there is no rewardd for shorter code in bfjoust
14:17:19 <quintopia> code golfmight mean something different than you thik
14:21:08 <itidus21> i arrived at this point by pondering what would happen if the jousters in bfjoust didn't compete. and i didn't think it through. i guess that it would simply be a case of >>>>>>>>>
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15:49:10 <Vorpal> who thought that abbreviating "Low self-discharge nickel-metal hybrid battery" to "LSD NiMH" was a good idea...
15:50:13 <ion> Sounds like a good idea to me.
15:55:01 <itidus21> one thing i seem to do is put into words things which wouldn't normally be put into words
15:57:28 <itidus21> i have these strange insights which seem to often be incomplete versions of theories and ideas known to the wise
15:58:05 <itidus21> and then i make it perverse by trying to use them primarily for creating entertainment
15:59:19 <itidus21> like i once had this thought about a turtle shell from super mario bros bouncing against bricks being almost like a program running
15:59:48 <Vorpal> it is a program running. The game simulating the event you just described
16:00:16 <itidus21> i mean as if bricks and turtle shells could almost form a turing machine
16:00:51 <itidus21> i assume to begin with i would need a non-breaking brick, a breaking brick, and a turtle shell bouncing
16:00:52 <Vorpal> there is no flow control
16:01:22 <itidus21> the shell goes either left or right, hits a brick, bounces back the other way
16:01:31 <Vorpal> also program output would e
16:01:41 <itidus21> then when it bounces back again
16:01:46 <Vorpal> be* limited based on the number of bricks you have available
16:01:54 <Vorpal> you couldn't create more bricks as required
16:02:23 <Vorpal> so I'm pretty sure it isn't TC, though don't quote me on that
16:02:42 <Gregor> So, Subway has introduced a guacamole bacon lettuce and tomato sandwich.
16:02:51 <itidus21> theres this scene near the end of one of the levels where you knock one brick down and watch it destroy row after row of bricks
16:02:55 <Gregor> Tragically, they don't abbreviate it to GBLT, and hence do not attract only a niche audience.
16:03:10 <itidus21> and i guess that is the most inspiring part of t
16:03:34 <itidus21> well.. there could be a thing where a shell can fall down a hole
16:03:57 <itidus21> which would mean the program has stopped running perhaps
16:05:07 <itidus21> only now at the end do you see how truely perverse i am about this stuff
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16:08:57 <itidus21> Vorpal: if i figured out a way to make more bricks though, that could be a cool thing
16:10:20 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm not sure the brain is the put-upon one in the iti/iti's brain relationship.
16:10:39 <itidus21> i would actually have to understand TCs to take this any further
16:11:04 <oklopol> i only understand like half of the TCs
16:11:54 <itidus21> the shell proceeds along resting on bricks
16:12:20 <itidus21> and when it encounters a brick in it's path it erases the brick and then changes direction
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16:24:02 <itidus21> ok so mario gives us the easy part.. a tape
16:24:33 <itidus21> if i suppose that an unbounded strip of tiles either containing a blank or a brick is a tape
16:24:44 <itidus21> and the turtleshell is the head
16:25:11 <itidus21> i think my lack of understanding begins by assuming that tells me much on it's own
16:26:28 <itidus21> so the head(the turtle) can erase a brick.. but it needs the capacity to write a brick.. which can be added too
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16:27:06 <itidus21> just a bit weird having the shell writing bricks but i guess it is necessary
16:28:49 <itidus21> so i can say that it is currently running such a program that
16:32:02 <itidus21> if the shell is on a blank it will proceed to the right until it encounters a brick. if the shell is on a brick it will erase the brick, then proceed to the left. if the shell is on a blank it will proceed to the left until it encounters a brick. if the shell is on a brick it will erase the brick, then proceed to the right. and repeat.
16:33:58 <itidus21> but it is that part, the defining that "program" which is the aspect of turing machines i am most uneducated about
16:34:50 <itidus21> anyway, have i defined an instance of a finite state machine? :D
16:35:05 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: You could equally well say "Eurg argh aaargh" to the phrase "LOTR WRITING"; there are quite a few fictional scripts in the Middle-earth legendarium.
16:35:40 <Phantom_Hoover> He's imitating the English-but-with-Tengwar-vowel-signs script that's used for maps and the like.
16:35:45 <itidus21> i will call that program mario
16:38:11 <fizzie> I don't recall anything like that in the maps that are in my copy. But that's a Finnish printing.
16:38:50 <Phantom_Hoover> But it's definitely used somewhere for some window-dressing text.
16:56:59 <itidus21> while(1) { while (n[i] == 0) i++; n[i] = 0; i--; while (n[i] == 0) i--; n[i] = 0; i++; }
16:58:23 <itidus21> one more time to be a bit cleaner: while(1){ while(!n[i]) i++; n[i]=0; i--; while(!n[i]) i--; n[i]=0; i++; }
16:58:53 <quintopia> it looks like a tape clear to the right that never comes back
16:59:14 <itidus21> i actually did spend far too long doing that
16:59:18 <quintopia> it clears an equal number of cells to the right
16:59:47 <quintopia> and then when one direction is completely cleared, it heads off to infinity
16:59:53 <itidus21> it can't compile of course since the size of n is unspecified and nor is the type of i
17:00:30 <itidus21> i applied brainfuck logic to it in C
17:01:09 <itidus21> im yet to write a bf version of this though
17:02:31 <itidus21> while (n == 0) is certainly not what bf was made for :D
17:02:31 <quintopia> since you need to keep something on the tape to use as your while loop flag
17:02:47 <quintopia> much easier to set the whole tape to 1s
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17:03:24 <itidus21> i mean... i could inverse the logic
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17:05:10 <itidus21> perhaps if i say 1 is a blank, then i can do this: while(1){ while(n[i]) i++; n[i]=1; i--; while(n[i]) i--; n[i]=1; i++; }
17:06:00 <quintopia> if the tape is all bits that would work
17:08:35 <quintopia> here's what i'm thinking: [-][[>]>[-]<+[<]<[-]>+]
17:09:05 <itidus21> while(1){ while(n[i]==1) i++; n[i]=1; i--; while(n[i]==1) i--; n[i]=1; i++; }
17:09:09 <quintopia> boily: did i ever tell you that i <3 aubergine
17:14:25 <boily> quintopia: thanks!
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17:54:54 <itidus21> fark that took more work than i expected
18:05:01 <fizzie> Purely going on substrings, ...][-] looks dubious, because immediately after passing through ] the cell can only be 0.
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18:07:35 <itidus21> this interpreter best demonstrates it's behaviour (in the debug box) http://www.lordalcol.com/brainfuckjs/
18:11:00 <fizzie> That's a very confusing debug box.
18:11:19 <fizzie> Took me a while to realize that it doesn't skip jumps, instead it walks through then with "SKIP WHILE: true" in the box.
18:12:07 <fizzie> Anyway, I'm reasonably sure it's not physically possible for those [-]s that come immediately after a ] to actually have an effect on anything.
18:16:25 <itidus21> though i can't figure out what it's doing when it stops
18:16:28 <fizzie> The [-] immediately at the start is I guess technically redundant too, assuming the usual start of a tape full of zeros.
18:18:05 <fizzie> Incidentally, I suppose there's some reason why the program is not just +[[>]+<[<]>] ? I haven't really been following the conversation.
18:18:56 <itidus21> because i'm the one who wrote it >.<
18:21:37 <itidus21> fizzie: well that program, which you have written properly, it's a simulation of a turtle shell from super mario bros.
18:23:10 <fizzie> Oh, I see. Except the way I wrote it, it only grows to one direction. But +[[>]+<[<]+] should be it.
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18:23:46 <fizzie> Sorry, I mean +[[>]+[<]+] -- that one < is obviously unnecessary.
18:25:15 <itidus21> fizzie: so... like.. what you have basically got here is a way to tell a super mario turtle shell how to bounce
18:27:11 <fizzie> In a hypothetical brainfuck where < and > were replaced with ^ (either > or < depending on the current direction) and | (flip the current direction), that would be the simpler +[[^]+|].
18:28:06 <itidus21> i think the reason i made such a mess of hte program was i was trying to base it on C
18:30:55 <itidus21> so [-]+[[[-]+>][-]+<[[-]+<][-]+] was supposed to be:
18:31:03 <itidus21> n[i]=1;while(n[i]!=0){while(n[i]!=0) { n[i]=1;i++;}n[i]=1;i--;while(n[i]!=0){n[i]=1;i--;}n[i]=1;}
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18:37:36 <itidus21> yeah... thats over. i can try to learn from this
18:44:09 <fizzie> Yes, I guess a direct translation of "=1" does easily end up with some [-]+'s. Anyway, +[[>]+[<]+] translates to n[i]++; while (n[i]) { while (n[i]) i++; n[i]++; while (n[i]) i--; n[i]++; }, it's just that all n[i]++s are performed only on cells that are zero, therefore they are equivalent to n[i] = 1s.
18:45:10 <fizzie> As for something like while (n[i] != 0) { n[i] = 1; i++; }, it's not really necessary to have n[i] = 1 in there, because n[i] is already 1, otherwise it wouldn't be looping any more.
18:45:17 <itidus21> well i have developed a sound system of translating brainfuck to C as part of a way to read it
18:45:31 <itidus21> i think only now have i got it all sorted
18:49:05 <itidus21> this is the translating: http://pastebin.com/sXRNnvVr
18:54:02 <fizzie> Wikipedia Brainfuck article has a C translation too, unless I misremember.
18:54:20 <fizzie> Yes, they have. Though it's the pointer version.
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18:57:13 <itidus21> i personally like mine better.. but blah
18:59:46 <itidus21> my knowledge of C is limited also.. i don't really consider deeply what ++ before and after means
19:00:18 <itidus21> nor do i know whether a pointer can be trusted to address an array
19:05:30 <fizzie> That's pretty much the only thing a pointer can really do.
19:06:21 <fizzie> As for pre/postfix ++/--, it doesn't much matter if the value of the expression is not being used for anything.
19:07:55 <pikhq> Some (idiots) will tell you one of them is more efficient (I honestly don't remember which it is) when you're not using the result.
19:08:06 <pikhq> ... This may have been true of pathologically un-optimizing compilers.
19:08:12 <itidus21> a mario shell is a strange sort of tapehead
19:09:24 <itidus21> rather, it can perhaps read the before and after
19:09:43 <fizzie> It's the prefix version that's usually considered efficient, though mostly in the context of C++ and user-defined types.
19:10:36 <fizzie> Since the postfix version of the operator has to create a temporary (and hope it's optimized away), while the prefix operator can just return a self-reference.
19:12:01 <fizzie> I've seen C++ books advocate it's good form to have a habit of using the prefix version in all cases when the value is not used, though.
19:14:15 <fizzie> http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq-lite/operator-overloading.html#faq-13.15 from the much-maligned FAQ. The FQA just pokes fun at how the compiler's optimization powers in this answer aren't limitless.
19:14:38 <pikhq> fizzie: Yes, well, C++ ought to be ignored.
19:15:38 <fizzie> Perhaps they should be calling it ++C, so that it'd be efficient.
19:19:07 <fizzie> C++ trivia (well, it's maybe not that trivia): to show that you intend to overload the postfix ++ instead of the prefix ++, you give the "operator++" method a dummy int parameter.
19:20:26 <fizzie> I vaguely think it's defined to have the value 0, but using it would be really bizarre.
19:20:27 <ais523> gah, I had "/me wonders" unsent in my #esoteric tab
19:20:32 <ais523> and have forgotten what I was wondering
19:20:52 <ais523> oh right; I was wondering if anyone received emails sent to abuse@example.com or webmaster@example.com
19:20:58 * boily suffers from repressed bad memories from his freshman programming introductory course...
19:21:18 <fizzie> ais523: Isn't that just a MX record check?
19:23:12 <fizzie> ais523: example.com doesn't seem to have a MX record, but it *does* have A/AAAA records, and I think those are used as fallbacks by MTAs.
19:23:49 <fizzie> (It also has dnssec signatures, interestingly enough.)
19:26:34 <fizzie> Nobody seems to be home at port 25 though.
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20:09:09 <Gregor> Purdue University Board of Trustees, which are appointed by the governor of Indiana, elects the governor of Indiana as president of Purdue.
20:09:58 <itidus21> why are you so interested in purdue? one might think you lived there :-j
20:10:15 <Gregor> And/or am a student there.
20:11:01 <lambdabot> Local time for itidus21 is Fri Jun 22 06:09:29
20:12:47 <itidus21> the first paragraph on this page is quite enlightening http://www.iwriteiam.nl/Ha_bf_Turing.html
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20:33:03 <itidus21> ok! i have come up with a way to think of an FSM in C
20:35:52 <itidus21> that took quite a while to arrive at actually..
20:42:44 <itidus21> and, even better: http://pastebin.com/xqP9wrxi
20:44:20 <itidus21> it seems what i am missing is a null operation
20:52:03 <nortti> wasn't microvax vax in desktop case?
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20:56:43 <Vorpal> nortti, are you in Vax channels!? :D
20:57:12 <Phantom_Hoover> I really want to make a clever joke about my computer's name, but it's just not coming.
20:57:45 <nortti> Phantom_Hoover: wasn't your computer named vax?
20:58:07 <Phantom_Hoover> This reminds me, I really need to get some compressed air and clean it out.
21:02:13 <itidus21> i don't know if there is any actual end to my edits to this, but im wondering if this is a sound comprehension of turing machines http://pastebin.com/xpNcw1jh
21:02:15 <Vorpal> nortti, ah right that sounds familiar
21:02:30 <itidus21> with lots of my notorious custom notations
21:02:36 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, do you have dust filters?
21:02:49 <Vorpal> I find that while they are not perfect (no surprise there) they help a lot
21:03:11 <Vorpal> rather than cleaning every other month I only need to clean maybe 1.5 times / year
21:03:14 <Phantom_Hoover> I guess all the dust in this room is because it's carpeted or something.
21:03:29 <Vorpal> ah I only have a small carpet in my room
21:03:35 <Vorpal> and it isn't a very dusty one
21:03:52 <Vorpal> according to google translate it is a "rag rug"
21:04:00 <Vorpal> no idea if that was accurately translated
21:04:34 <Vorpal> anyway it doesn't cause that much dust
21:04:56 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, do you have fans pushing air in or sucking air out?
21:05:30 <Vorpal> dust filters wouldn't help that much with the sucking (negative air pressure) design, since then a lot of air will be sucked in elsewhere as well
21:06:54 <Vorpal> huh I was given an address for tomorrow, except when I check google maps and google street view it is just forest there
21:07:29 <Vorpal> I guess it must be newly built
21:08:00 <Vorpal> hm there is a building site on the map (not on street view) some way further down the road, so I guess that is possible
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21:23:05 <itidus21> ok i think i have done something worth looking at now :D
21:23:27 <itidus21> so my question is, is this a valid turing machine to simulate the bouncing mario bros shell? http://pastebin.com/iu2atVC3
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21:33:27 <Phantom_Hoover> <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, do you have fans pushing air in or sucking air out?
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22:37:12 <olsner> hmm, so nothing interesting here since last night?
22:37:16 <olsner> see you next week then
22:39:12 <olsner> "The dilemma is that I want something fine-tuned for parsing binary protocols, hence I can't really externalize the tokenizer."
22:39:21 <olsner> externalize .... the tokenizer?
22:39:24 <pikhq> olsner: omosiroi koto ha huhituyounntà
22:40:12 <olsner> pikhq: admit that you gave up after the ha? the thing after that looks like gibberish
22:40:44 <olsner> besides, à in japanese? can you even do that?
22:40:47 <nortti_> elliott: why did you block Heliumint
22:41:10 <olsner> "... a parser that uses a trie structure to determine the parse rules before the actual extraction. The problem of course is that it will not solve the problem with left recursion."
22:42:05 <olsner> maybe I should suggest that this guy read a book and/or get a clue?
22:54:33 <Sgeo> Should I try Bastion
22:57:02 <pikhq> olsner: I use a really absurd romanisation scheme.
22:57:24 <pikhq> olsner: 面白い事は不必要んだ。 in normal Japanese writing.
22:58:26 <pikhq> olsner: "tà" indicates "ta" with a dakuten. i.e. た + ﾞ.
22:59:00 <pikhq> "Omoshiroi koto wa fuhitsuyônda" in a more ordinary romanisation scheme.
23:00:13 <elliott> <nortti_> elliott: why did you block Heliumint
23:00:24 <elliott> The reason is right there on the page.
23:02:54 <itidus21> if i didn't know better i'd think you all speak japanese in addition to the other skills
23:03:10 <pikhq> That's mostly my fault. :P
23:04:33 <itidus21> so what you're doing is romanizing japanese for a finnish audience?
23:05:03 <pikhq> itidus21: Romanizing Japanese by way of a strict encoding of kana orthography.
23:05:44 <itidus21> i'm contented with the word romanizing.. though i used to throw the word transliteration around a lot once
23:06:11 * oerjan wonders if there is any japanese word which would be clearly illegal phonetically in finnish
23:06:49 <oerjan> oh well, there's vowel harmony, but you can make compounds breaking that
23:06:53 <itidus21> theres one way to get a positive proof
23:07:24 <itidus21> if surely if all of the syllables are ok then combining them is ok
23:07:48 <pikhq> oerjan: Hmm. Trying to think of a weird edge case in Japanese.
23:07:51 <oerjan> itidus21: actually no, that's what vowel harmony thwarts
23:08:34 <pikhq> Also, whether or not it looks clearly illegal possibly depends on the chosen romanization.
23:08:35 <oerjan> you cannot have a,o in the same non-compound word as ä,ö,y
23:08:51 <oerjan> hm, add u the first group
23:09:01 <pikhq> "zutsū" and "sùtuu" look rather different, for example.
23:09:41 <oerjan> hm right z is not a finnish letter i think
23:12:59 <pikhq> As do "wikipedia" and "uīkihe̊tèīa"...
23:13:44 <oerjan> ...i hope the japanese at least pronounce it with a p
23:14:46 <pikhq> It's denoted as "he" with a handakuten, i.e. へ + ﾟ, though.
23:16:36 <pikhq> Likewise, "wi" is written as "u" with a small "i", ウィ, because there's no glyph for "wi" (... in modern usage, that anybody actually *knows*)
23:16:56 <pikhq> Similar for "di", ディ.
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23:25:17 <itidus21> {g,a,n,d,l,f}\{t,h,e,g,r,a,y} = {n,d,l,f} !
23:25:50 <itidus21> i wonder if it's gray or grey though
23:29:04 <fizzie> It's "Grey" in my electronic version, at least.
23:31:19 <itidus21> given that gray/grey is a word upon which england(?) and usa have chosen to differ, and the signifigance of LOTR coming from jsdlkjdklsjdkls shit why don't i even know what to call that place
23:39:28 <fizzie> oerjan: Comparing wiki's phonology articles, we don't have a superset of their phonemes. Though it's not *terribly* far. (We're missing IPA /z/, /w/, /N/ and on the vowel side they've got /a/ in place of our /ɑ/.)
23:45:59 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uvular_nasal
23:48:18 <fizzie> We do have /ŋ/ which I guess is not horribly far, but not the same thing.
23:50:31 <fizzie> And regarding /z/, even though we don't have it natively, it's not as if we were especially unfamiliar with it, what with English and all.
23:54:48 <fizzie> (There might be a tendency to unvoice it to a [t͡s] kind of sound though.)
23:57:01 <fizzie> (Possibly German influence? I think their 'z' letter is pronounced like that.)
00:01:17 <oerjan> http://www.dagbladet.no/tegneserie/gjesteserie/panto/
00:03:18 <oerjan> (no text to translate)
00:25:22 <DHeadshot> I don't like the above implication that England, Great Britain and The UK all refer to the same place. The American equivalent would be to claim such of Texas, Dixie and The US...
00:30:03 <Phantom_Hoover> i.e. what, exactly, is the Isle of Man in relation to the United Kingdom.
00:34:10 <kmc> itidus21: those are all different places
00:35:11 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: it's a self-governing crown dependency
00:35:13 <kmc> says wikipedia
00:36:09 <kmc> "Under British law, the Isle of Man is not part of the United Kingdom. However, the UK takes care of its external and defence affairs, and retains paramount power to legislate for the island."
00:36:23 <kmc> sounds like a colony >_<
00:36:38 * oerjan meditates upon Spitsbergen, Svalbard, Norway and Kingdom of Norway
00:36:52 <elliott> kmc: is the isle of man a british overseas territory
00:37:01 <elliott> because that is pretty much our name for colonies
00:37:05 <kmc> <3 svalbard
00:37:14 <kmc> elliott: no
00:37:27 <kmc> jersey, guernsey, and isle of man have their own deal
00:37:47 <kmc> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8e/British_Overseas.png
00:38:19 <elliott> You see, I thought I knew all the answers.
00:38:30 <elliott> But it turns out the UK makes no sense at all.
00:38:39 <kmc> what do you mean?
00:38:44 <kmc> the UK is a nation-state
00:39:03 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, well I mean the UK is England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.
00:39:09 <elliott> kmc: Okay. What does it compromise?
00:39:16 <Phantom_Hoover> The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
00:39:19 <oerjan> oh hum wait Svalbard _is_ part of the kingdom.
00:39:29 <elliott> What's the difference between somethin being part of the UK and something being governed by it?
00:39:47 <kmc> don't know, but the UK as a soverign entity is allowed to make such an arbitrary distinction
00:39:48 <Phantom_Hoover> One is actually part of the UK, the other is only governed by it?
00:39:58 <kmc> i know it has bearing on citizenship, for one
00:40:08 <pikhq> kmc: Uh, the term "nation state" means it's a state representing a nation. As in, a community of people who share a common language, culture, ethnicity, descent, and/or history...
00:40:14 <kmc> "Although Manx passport holders are British citizens, because the Isle of Man is not part of the European Union, people born on the Island without a parent or grandparent either born or resident for more than five consecutive years in the UK do not have the same rights as other British citizens with regard to employment and establishment in the EU"
00:40:17 <pikhq> By my count, the UK has 4 constituent nations.
00:40:28 <kmc> ok, so maybe it's just a state
00:42:14 <DHeadshot> The US have a similar thing with certain nearby islands...
00:43:09 <elliott> kmc: it is a "sovereign state" apparently
00:43:23 <elliott> i guess this means england is not a nation-state, it is a nation and a country that is part of the UK sovereign state
00:43:26 <elliott> but is england itself a state
00:43:50 <kmc> depends how you're using the word "state"
00:44:08 <elliott> kmc: i believe there are also certain overseas territories that the royal family actually *own*, through the crown
00:44:09 <pikhq> Well, the constituent states of the United States are, in most all senses of the term, at least de jure...
00:44:23 <kmc> the US has incorporated unorganized territories, unincorporated organized territories, and unincorporated unorganized territories
00:44:24 <elliott> but do the royals own Ireland?
00:44:28 <kmc> and used to have the fourth one too
00:44:31 <pikhq> Legal statuses are confusing as hell with the UK.
00:45:03 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> kmc: i believe there are also certain overseas territories that the royal family actually *own*, through the crown
00:45:35 <Phantom_Hoover> We've been over this; Crown ownership only represents ownership by the regent in the most abstract way.
00:46:25 <kmc> did you know there is a piece of land on the border between Egypt and Sudan which is claimed by neither country?
00:46:26 <pikhq> Much like how, in theory, the Queen exercises near-ultimate power, but in practice the Queen only has enough power to be on TV and such.
00:46:28 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bir_Tawil
00:47:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I know that.
00:47:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: But the whole point of this is technicalities.
00:47:58 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm not even sure it's true as a technicality, considering all that corporation sole stuff.
00:48:02 <kmc> " In 1999, Queen Elizabeth II, acting on the advice of the government, refused to signify her consent to the Military Action Against Iraq (Parliamentary Approval) Bill, which sought to transfer from the monarch to Parliament the power to authorise military strikes against Iraq."
00:48:08 <oerjan> kmc: i knew, probably because someone here mentioned it
00:49:05 <kmc> also there is a bit of territory which lebanon and syria both agree is part of lebanon, but israel considers to be part of syria
00:50:02 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shebaa_farms
00:51:08 <kmc> it's occupied by israel, but israel withdrew from occupied territories in lebanon, therefore they consider it to be part of syria's golan heights
00:51:51 <Phantom_Hoover> I've just realised that I've never actually heard of any of Israel's territory being occupied by anyone else, except when it was previously disputed.
00:52:17 <Phantom_Hoover> It... seems that should happen as much as the other way round.
00:52:45 <kmc> no because israel had a tiny amount of territory to begin with
00:53:21 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought they started out with some large section of what was formerly British Palestine.
00:54:08 <kmc> by "to begin with" i mean after the war of independence
00:55:12 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War
00:55:27 <kmc> i'm using an operational definition of "state" here
00:55:43 <kmc> where the fact that the UN says you're a state is not very relevant
00:55:53 <kmc> but the fact that you control some territory and provide state-like services within it is more relevant
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00:56:23 <kmc> and the ability of the israeli government to do that was not established until the end of the 1948 war
00:58:19 <elliott> http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120621/01482419410/cbs-mocks-its-own-failed-copyright-lawsuit-sarcastically-announcing-new-completely-original-show-dancing-stars.shtml
00:59:00 <kmc> "we’re sure nobody will have any problem with this title or our upcoming half-hour comedy for primetime, POSTMODERN FAMILY."
00:59:03 <kmc> i would watch that
00:59:26 <kmc> i would watch it until my TV literally took a shit in my room
01:00:06 <kmc> how to check
01:00:41 <elliott> if your tv runs towards it and picks it up it is probably a dog
01:01:03 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: at what point do you consider the territory "occupied"? if there's active fighting and the front moves into the previous borders of your country, is that occupation
01:01:10 <oerjan> with UltraSmell(R) Technology
01:01:11 <kmc> or does it only count after a ceasefire of some length
01:01:37 <oerjan> Lumpio-: CAN YOU SNIFF THIS BAG OF SUSPECTED DORITOS
01:01:44 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: gimme 2 minutes then
01:01:49 <kmc> THEN WHO WAS PHONE?
01:02:08 <kmc> elliott smash
01:02:18 <Phantom_Hoover> i used to keep talking then i took an arrow to the knee
01:02:24 <elliott> i do what i do because i must
01:02:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: your right to talk has how been revoked
01:03:26 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: i don't understand, could you copy-paste that text into a bad drawing please and upload it to imgur
01:03:59 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
01:04:06 <HackEgo> elliott wrote this learn DB, and wrote or improved many of the other commands in this bot. He probably has done other things?
01:04:20 <elliott> oh Phantom_Hoover had an extra space
01:04:22 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: BEWARE OF THE EVIL TRAILING SPACE BUG
01:05:27 <oerjan> `learn shachaf completamente loco
01:06:36 <oerjan> i think we might be killing HackEgo
01:06:41 <HackEgo> ? \ ais523 \ augur \ banach-tarski \ c \ cakeprophet \ category \ coffee \ comonad \ coppro \ egobot \ elliott \ endofunctor \ esoteric \ europe \ everyone \ finland \ finns \ fizzie \ flower \ friendship \ functor \ fungot \ glogbot \ gregor \ hackego \ haskell \ hexham \ ievan \ intercal \ internationale \ itidus20 \ itidus21 \ kallisti \ lens \ lifthrasiir \ mad \ misspellings of croissant \ monad \ monads \ monoid
01:06:42 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ topic=$(echo "$1" | sed 's/ .*//' | tr A-Z a-z) \ info=$(echo "$1" | sed 's/[^ ]* //') \ echo "$1" >"wisdom/$topic" \ echo "I knew that." \
01:06:44 <elliott> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
01:06:48 <elliott> it seems something is wrong
01:06:49 <HackEgo> Linux umlbox 3.0.8-umlbox #2 Sun Nov 13 21:30:28 UTC 2011 x86_64 GNU/Linux
01:06:54 <elliott> oerjan: try adding it again
01:08:00 <oerjan> `learn shachaf completamente loco
01:09:14 <oerjan> `run cat wisdom/shachaf wisdom/shachaf
01:09:45 <HackEgo> wisdom/shachaf: symbolic link to `/dev/null'
01:10:06 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
01:10:34 <elliott> would be fairly easy to fix that bug in `learn but i cba
01:11:08 <oerjan> what bug, surely that doesn't make it /dev/null
01:11:36 <kmc> my fake british friend says that crown dependencies are more like personal union, and so aren't bound by the uk parliament
01:11:48 <kmc> except wikipedia says parliament occasionally passes laws that intend to apply to mann and the channel islands
01:11:57 <kmc> i don't know how this works really
01:12:11 <kmc> law (especially british law) seems nice and formalized but really it's all made up as you go
01:12:18 <oerjan> `learn shachaf sprø som selleri
01:12:43 <kmc> unwritten constitution and all
01:12:57 <Phantom_Hoover> which has no written constitution and is very interpretative
01:13:06 <pikhq> Some law is made up more than others...
01:13:28 <pikhq> British law is probably the most blatantly so of any modern nation.
01:13:47 <elliott> kmc: the odd part is that you think it seems nice and formalised
01:14:05 <kmc> it seems better than US law, where we spend a long time worrying about what some slaveowning aristocrats 220 years ago intended
01:14:05 <elliott> admittedly our government is good at printing impressively attractive forms that make you think they have an awful lot of iron-clad rules behind them
01:14:30 <kmc> and whenever the supreme court wants to invent a new civil right (or take one away), they have to come up with a ridiculous justification for why it was intended all along
01:14:48 <elliott> kmc: unfortunately the result is that we don't have any credible arguments that the government can't legally violate our rights :P
01:15:03 <elliott> not that having one necessarily helps
01:15:19 <Phantom_Hoover> OTOH the government don't have any credible arguments that they *can* legally violate our rights.
01:15:50 <kmc> i guess it is presumptuous of me to say which one is "better"
01:16:32 <kmc> i think the difference relates to the fact that USA is a much newer country with a very strong origin myth
01:17:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Do they have any credible arguments that they can do anything by that definition?
01:17:11 <kmc> you know jesus guided the writing of the constitution and this is why USA #1 forever
01:17:44 <elliott> Maybe we should employ some militant Tea Partiers to come and live in the UK so the government has some kind of vaguely credible thing to be afraid about.
01:18:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well, the guns are credible.
01:18:47 <kmc> i look forward to hearing about how david cameron is an atheist muslim terrorist from kenya who was born in a terrorist training camp in pakistan
01:18:58 <kmc> seems pretty likely
01:19:04 <kmc> i mean, have you seen his birth certificate?
01:19:07 <kmc> WHAT IS HE HIDING
01:19:34 <elliott> kmc: I think if Cameron wasn't British he'd have to kill himself.
01:20:31 <kmc> is that how it works
01:20:36 <pikhq> kmc: I think to find a nation with a stronger origin myth you have to go back Romulus.
01:20:49 <Phantom_Hoover> If he wasn't British I would be very curious as to who is.
01:21:07 <kmc> 'At the core of this doctrine was the notion that the crown itself had personhood and as a legal entity is identical to the state of Hungary. It is superior to the ruling monarch, who rules "in the name of the crown".'
01:21:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well I mean wouldn't you rather Cameron *wasn't* British.
01:21:22 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Crown_of_Hungary#Holiness_doctrine
01:21:33 <Phantom_Hoover> no, his britishness is an integral part of his terribleness
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01:27:39 <david_werecat> !bfjoust freeze (((((((((()*-1)*-1)*-1)*-1)*-1)*-1)*-1)*-1)*-1)*-1
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01:30:37 <elliott> david_werecat: That won't work :P
01:30:51 <elliott> david_werecat: Macros aren't expanded; there's no way to cause exponential blowup.
01:31:20 <elliott> I suppose it could freeze the thing up, but I don't think the interpreter is susceptible to it...
01:31:27 <elliott> I know lance handled it correctly... so I blame fizzie.
01:31:33 <elliott> david_werecat: I think EgoBot has a global timeout on everything, though.
01:31:59 <david_werecat> I thought so too, but apparently not short enough.
01:32:40 <elliott> Well, that's... reassuring.
01:33:19 <david_werecat> At least I'm not using "!perl fork() while fork()".
01:35:44 <david_werecat> Though, why is bfjoust still running after all this time?
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01:42:24 * quintopia suspects the timeout is on program cycles and not the ()* construct
01:43:18 <quintopia> i don't think that bug is my responsibility so...
01:43:47 <quintopia> @tell Gregor http://www.filedropper.com/newbfjousttar and ask about the bug in gearlance
01:43:56 <elliott> <david_werecat> That freezes codu entirely.
01:44:36 <Gregor> !perl fork() while fork()
01:44:37 <lambdabot> Gregor: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
01:44:40 <elliott> That would be a serious bug in UMLBox, then.
01:44:48 <david_werecat> It also froze all other websites running or Gregor's box.
01:45:26 <Gregor> I suspect the bug uncovered was in fact bad timing when I was introducing bugs to fuck up Codu on my own the other day ;)
01:45:53 <elliott> Yeah, that sounds implausible to me... UML shouldn't be forkbombable like that.
01:45:58 <elliott> Especially with EgoBot's ulimits.
01:46:18 <elliott> Gregor: Link me to your local *lance copy >_>
01:46:25 <quintopia> nonetheless bfjoust has not returned
01:46:51 <Gregor> As I recall, EgoBot just remains silent if the time limit is reached.
01:47:20 <quintopia> it would not have been reached on the call i made afterwards
01:47:37 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
01:47:40 <oerjan> <elliott> I know lance handled it correctly... so I blame fizzie. <-- perhaps there's a bug when the "expanded" content is empty?
01:47:44 <Gregor> Alternatively, it is in fact running that other bfjoust 8-D
01:47:51 <elliott> oerjan: Right, it's () that would cause any such bug.
01:47:58 <elliott> Gregor: I can patch up *lance for it in a jiffy.
01:48:20 <elliott> Interestingly ()*anything should never be a timeout as you might expect, but instead be simply skipped.
01:48:23 <quintopia> elliott: remember to patch the new version
01:48:29 <Gregor> http://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/ ought to be up to date.
01:48:33 <elliott> Actually... that's kind of a pain.
01:48:37 <elliott> Since you have to handle the nesting.
01:48:43 <elliott> What you need is a recursive expands_to_empty function.
01:48:50 <elliott> Which is easy to define but a pain to use.
01:48:57 <elliott> So I won't fix it, because it'd be ugly. fizzie can.
01:49:27 <quintopia> Gregor: you already installed the new version that fast?
01:50:24 <oerjan> Gregor: have you got out of china yet? with all your body parts?
01:50:29 <Gregor> I was talking to elliott X_X
01:52:40 * oerjan thinks wikipedia should have a different color for links that go to disambiguation and misspelled redirect pages
01:52:40 <quintopia> Gregor: oh i thought you were telling him it was OK to patch the version of gearlance found at http://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/ , which would cause it to conflict with the version in the tarball i just gave you
01:52:40 <quintopia> but it's irrelevant if codu is down :P
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01:53:11 <elliott> Incidentally, Gregor IRCs through codu.
01:53:11 <elliott> So you just broke his IRC client.
01:53:27 <elliott> oerjan: that sounds DB-intensive
01:53:27 <quintopia> elliott: actually he ran the forkbomb himself XD
01:53:38 <elliott> Well then... Gregor did :P
01:53:41 <Gregor> <srd|__> could someone please write in this channel an IRP implementation of a universal Turing machine?
01:53:58 <Gregor> elliott: IRP may be in fancy-L ;)
01:54:02 <oerjan> elliott: but it already have a different color if the page doesn't _exist_
01:54:42 <Gregor> Oh shit EgoBot is still using Plash, isn't it X_X
01:55:03 <elliott> Gregor: Are you lagged to hell
01:55:14 <elliott> oerjan: that's a much simpler check than the others, I think
01:55:32 <oerjan> elliott: what do i know. i just see people are _still_ making new links to [[Issac Newton]].
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01:56:52 <elliott> oerjan: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3AWhatLinksHere&target=Issac+Newton&namespace=0
01:56:53 <oerjan> elliott: um i already did that, and fixed most of them
01:57:09 <elliott> oerjan: I think there might be a bot that finds links to redirects from misspellings?
01:58:42 <oerjan> there are a couple old ones i haven't fixed because i haven't been able to check if the misspelling is in the actual source referenced
01:58:46 <oerjan> and also i just after that fixed a lot of "pentathalon"s :P
01:58:47 <elliott> clearly you should buy the comics
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01:59:07 <elliott> i will buy them if they are cheap
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02:00:06 <oerjan> no one answered my question on the talk page, anyway
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02:16:41 <Gregor> OK, probably time to switch EgoBot over to UMLBox...
02:16:43 <Gregor> I seriously thought I had done that, like, ages ago X_X
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02:33:03 <coppro> elliott: you'll enjoy what I just did to blognomic.
02:34:27 <coppro> elliott: I replaced the word 'Dynasty' with 'Machine'. BlogNomic is now in the Third Machine of scshunt.
02:36:15 <elliott> coppro: can you explain henri bouchard to me
02:36:36 <shachaf> oerjan: Wait, did I do the /dev/null thing?
02:37:29 <elliott> coppro: Can you come up with some plan to win BlogNomic that lets me win without doing anything so that I can start a good dynasty?
02:37:44 <elliott> ais523: You are also permitted to do so.
02:37:58 <oerjan> /hm/whydidn'tirssibreakthat
02:38:12 <oerjan> seems it doesn't count it as a command if it contains a /
02:42:31 <elliott> coppro: i don't see where you actually did that
02:42:46 <elliott> it replaced it in the core rules as well as dynastic by mistake or something?
02:44:42 <coppro> elliott: neither of the other two things though
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03:19:39 <zzo38> Now I thought about it I can know, you can make a sum of categories, you can make a product of categories, and a monad or comonad on one of them you make the sum of monads and product of monads too, etc
03:28:19 <zzo38> The other thing is that it seems that you cannot actually make sum of categories and product of categories with the Category class in Haskell.
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03:51:24 <ais523> does anyone here know of multiplexing X forwarders, sort-of like tmux but with X rather than terminals?
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03:55:01 <coppro> ais523: To the best of my knowledge, none exists
03:55:05 <coppro> I've considered writing one
03:55:12 <coppro> but there's a lot of tricksiness
03:55:25 <coppro> and resources are stored server-side
03:55:30 <coppro> so the muxer would have to retain copies
03:55:34 <coppro> and restablish them server-side
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03:56:02 <coppro> you'd basically need to write a server
03:56:10 <coppro> except its display backend is also X
03:56:30 <coppro> (and GL wouldn't work unless you implemented software emulation on the muxer)
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04:32:40 <pikhq> It'd be trivial with Wayland, as far as I know.
04:34:54 <coppro> Or do you mean local muxing?
04:34:59 <coppro> Local muxing might work.
04:35:12 <coppro> but not remote, since Wayland has no forwarding
04:36:04 <pikhq> I meant local. Though remote would work if you implemented your own forwarding protocol.
04:42:29 <zzo38> Do you know how many things are banned in the Free Land of Not a pipe? Some of them are: * Searching housing units is banned. * Assisted suicide is banned. * Assisted abortion is mostly banned. * Hunting is mostly banned. * Surveillance cameras are banned in public areas. * Secret police are banned. * Elite police are banned. * Monopoly is banned. * Smoking in public is banned. * It is prohibited for someone who is dead to act as alive.
04:48:16 <coppro> but how do I own park place and boardwalk?
04:48:33 <coppro> pikhq: remote Wayland would largely defeat the point
04:49:24 <pikhq> coppro: It'd still be a much less shitty setup.
04:50:06 <pikhq> Apps currently try to treat X as a framebuffer muxer, setting up forwarding on top of an *actual* framebuffer muxer rather than a hacked-up one would work at least a bit better.
04:50:39 <zzo38> But there are also many things which are permitted: * Free speech is permitted without restriction. * Hate speech is permitted. * Discrimination is mostly permitted. * Cannibalism is permitted. * Voting is permitted at any age. * Writing and publishing whatever book you want is permitted. * Most other things are also permitted.
04:54:43 <zzo38> Kasparov once played chess against a team of fifty thousand people.
04:58:36 <zzo38> The team of fifty thousand people lost.
05:11:21 <coppro> none of us is as dumb as all o fus
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05:17:34 <kmc> did they vote on moves? what was the procedure?
05:42:02 <Sgeo> I seem to be in my "hunt for a language" phase
05:42:29 <Sgeo> I have moved from looking at Clojure to looking at ... not sure which of SML or OCaml I should look at, there seems to be more OCaml'ers on Reddit
05:42:34 <Sgeo> And am now doing a Try OCaml thing
05:42:43 <elliott> kmc: Seehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kasparov_versus_the_World.
05:44:29 <elliott> kmc: of course by "50k people" it was actually "far less people who were good at chess arguing on an internet forum and then getting everyone else to vote for that"
05:45:24 <elliott> [[Black finally secured the opportunity to castle but refused to be so defensive. This move was a novelty by the World Team, i.e. a move which had never before been played in a recorded game. Krush discovered and analyzed the move, and enlisted Paehtz to recommend it as well, to give it a better chance of winning the vote. Their combined advocacy, plus much discussion on the bulletin board, was enough to gain it 53% of the vote. After this move,
05:45:24 <elliott> MSN requested that the four official analysts not coordinate with each other, perhaps to ensure a greater variety of recommendations. The analysts worked in isolation from each other thereafter.[5]]]
05:48:42 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kasparov-18.jpg
05:48:44 <kmc> love the joystick
05:48:57 <kmc> "yeah i actually spent most of the time playing TIE Fighter"
05:49:02 <elliott> kmc: that's how you play chess
05:50:29 <elliott> lies, n. "You wont get better error messages than with ghc and ghci."
05:50:30 <pikhq> He actually uses a combat emulator to decide his moves.
05:50:56 <pikhq> See, chess actually comes out of ancient combat rituals. Therefore, what is best in battle directly corresponds to what is best in chess.
05:52:11 <elliott> kmc: "Those who complained were not overstating Krush's influence; her recommendations were selected every single move from the 10th to the 50th."
05:53:57 <kmc> was The World allowed to use computer chess programs?
05:54:02 <kmc> and opening books, etc
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05:55:39 <elliott> Did you read the opening of the article? It would be exceedingly difficult to stop an open web poll doing anything.
05:55:52 <elliott> So any such rules would be irrelevant, really.
05:56:05 <elliott> I doubt computer chess programs are any good when they only get to take some of the moves.
05:56:26 <elliott> "This move was posted by United States Senior Master and Life Master Brian McCarthy, one of the most prolific contributors to the World Team forum. He found the move working with his Bookup database and the integrated computer program Zarkov." -- so it was done.
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05:57:15 <Sgeo> Now I'm looking at Mercury.
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06:10:40 <Sgeo> I was going to ask what it is with "Objective" being added to language names to indicate OO, but then saw the obvious
06:11:23 <pikhq> Sgeo: Objective C as opposed to subjective C, of course.
06:11:34 <kmc> are there examples other than C and C++?
06:11:48 <Sgeo> kmc, Objective Caml
06:12:01 <kmc> but almost nobody expands that acronym and almost nobody uses the object system ;)
06:12:33 <Sgeo> Besides apparently having more of a community, is there any reason to go OCaml over SML?
06:12:49 <Sgeo> Because I'm currently looking at OCaml more because of the community than anything else
06:12:52 <kmc> http://www.mpi-sws.org/~rossberg/sml-vs-ocaml.html
06:12:54 <kmc> http://adam.chlipala.net/mlcomp/
06:13:10 <coppro> sml isn't worth anything except learning why haskell is better
06:13:26 <pikhq> Which probably has high value all its own.
06:13:36 <kmc> SML syntax is a bit nicer i think
06:13:43 <kmc> it has a wider variety of implementations
06:13:53 <kmc> these are not really big points in favor
06:13:59 <kmc> ocaml is used by real companies doing real things
06:14:08 <pikhq> That doesn't say much, anyways: Haskell's nearly a monoculture by now.
06:14:13 <kmc> maybe even more than Haskell
06:14:24 <shachaf> SML is totally used for, uh, things!
06:15:09 <kmc> the comparison is hard to make because i think ocaml users are less evangelical
06:16:00 * shachaf wonders whether he should do the ICFP contest.
06:16:10 <elliott> That article gets less and less Wikipedia-y as it goes on. "Here then is a six-man ending; www.shredderchess.com has a tablebase for all these endings available; after 55.Qxb4 the tablebase shows White can win in 82 moves!"
06:16:50 <elliott> OCaml is a very ugly language.
06:17:09 <kmc> ocaml is ugly, and i don't just mean syntax
06:17:09 <elliott> (Not talking about syntax here.)
06:17:17 <kmc> the syntax is plenty ugly too ;P
06:17:27 <elliott> I actually quite like OCaml's syntax.
06:18:09 <elliott> coppro: did you just break agora
06:18:11 <kmc> one thing i really like about ocaml (the implementation) is that it's factored into a thing which produces bytecode, a bytecode interpreter written in C, and a bytecode to native code compiler
06:18:33 <shachaf> kmc: Guess what #haskell is doing!
06:18:43 <kmc> so even though the compiler is self-hosting, you can get it running on a new platform just by compiling the interpreter (a C program) and then running pre-compiled bytecodes for the compiler
06:19:07 <shachaf> kmc: What's the practical difference between that and generating portable C?
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06:19:42 <kmc> maybe none
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06:20:09 <kmc> in theory GHC can do something like this with the unregisterized C backend
06:20:17 <kmc> in practice it is an unmitigated clusterfuck
06:20:29 <Sgeo> XChat crudded out on me
06:20:31 <kmc> the C produced by the unreg'd C backend is not portable C at all
06:20:36 <shachaf> Due to assumptions made while compiling, or something like that, if I remember correctly?
06:20:57 <shachaf> On the other hand these same problems might apply to the bytecode approach.
06:21:00 <kmc> when you build GHC, it hardcodes a bunch of struct sizes and offsets and the like for the target platform
06:21:07 <kmc> and GHC was never really designed to be built as a cross compiler
06:21:14 <Sgeo> What's ugly about OCaml?
06:21:28 <Sgeo> Besides the lack of typeclasses (and I heard modules are sort of better, but is that just SML?)
06:21:32 <kmc> data constructor arguments aren't curried
06:21:46 <kmc> equality is a single baked-in special case typeclass-like thing
06:21:49 <kmc> but you can't define your own
06:21:55 <shachaf> kmc: So I think the issue is "GHC was never designed to built as a cross compiler", not so much the particular approach they didn't take while not designing it. :-)
06:21:57 <kmc> modules aren't a replacement for typeclasses, or vice versa
06:22:06 <kmc> some problems can be solved with either feature
06:22:08 <kmc> others can't really
06:22:33 <Sgeo> Are data constructors functions at all?
06:22:42 <Sgeo> Or are they functions that take a tuple, or what?
06:22:51 <shachaf> Oh, you're talking about OCaml.
06:22:58 <kmc> they're like functions that take a tuple. there might be additional restrictions
06:23:27 <kmc> iirc printf formatting is also a special baked in thing
06:23:29 <elliott> <shachaf> kmc: Guess what #haskell is doing!
06:23:36 <elliott> Is it "explaining" monads?
06:23:56 <shachaf> elliott: Well, I was thinking along the lines of "annoying me", but that too.
06:24:01 <elliott> kmc: yeah ocaml's pritnf stuff is weird
06:24:15 <elliott> a string literal can be overloaded to a "printf" value when it is the second argument of printf
06:24:26 <elliott> also this breaks substitution etc.
06:24:30 <elliott> basically printf is a macro that takes a string literal
06:24:44 <elliott> that's not an inherently bad way to do things but ocaml's execution of it is gross
06:24:46 <kmc> also OCaml has extensible sum types... wait, no, it has a *single* extensible sum type, named exn and usually used for exceptions
06:24:49 <kmc> elliott: yeah
06:25:09 <kmc> otoh OCaml has better support for adding your own macro-like stuff than pretty much any non-Lisp i know of
06:25:26 <elliott> the camlp stuff is interesting
06:25:35 <elliott> if only it wasn't attached to ocaml
06:25:38 <kmc> yeah camlp4 lets you modify the concrete syntax of the language
06:25:43 <kmc> you can write true syntactic extensions
06:25:56 <kmc> in fact you can define your own totally alternate syntax
06:26:03 <kmc> http://caml.inria.fr/pub/docs/manual-camlp4/manual007.html
06:26:19 <kmc> elliott: do you think the value restriction counts as "ugly"?
06:26:54 <kmc> Sgeo: oh, i forgot another major blemish: addition on ints is + but addition on floats is +.
06:27:06 <elliott> kmc: i forget what that is
06:27:11 <elliott> kmc: it's how they stop unsafeCoerce from references right
06:28:07 <kmc> Sgeo: because they don't have type-class overloading
06:28:10 <kmc> also i was wrong before
06:28:19 <kmc> ocaml doesn't have the fake typeclass for equality, that's SML
06:28:33 <kmc> in ocaml you can use the equals operator on any type, including say functions
06:28:40 <kmc> and if the type isn't comparable, it's a run-time exception
06:29:01 <shachaf> Does it do structural equality?
06:29:48 <kmc> you can't override it, afaik
06:30:05 <kmc> i'm actually not a big fan of typeclasses in Haskell
06:30:10 <kmc> but i think these alternatives are worse
06:30:53 <shachaf> Typeclasses are nice when you have a single definitive fundamental implementaion.
06:30:55 <kmc> my view is more that, typeclasses are a good feature, but people (especially beginners) go way overboard defining new typeclasses and instances
06:31:11 <kmc> and typeclasses aren't a *great* feature; there is room for improvement
06:31:20 <elliott> typeclasses are one of the worst features I kno wof and cause an infinite multitude of problems... but they also seem to be necessary
06:31:43 <kmc> well, define "necessary"
06:31:49 <kmc> people get by with the SML and OCaml solutions too
06:31:49 <elliott> nobody wants to use a different operator for integers and floats, nobody wants to recode Map for every type
06:32:00 <Sgeo> Am I seriously mostly looking at other languages because of Haskell's records situation?
06:32:04 <elliott> actually Map would not be so bad
06:32:13 <elliott> empty :: Ordering a -> Map a
06:32:26 <elliott> data Ordering a = Ordering (a -> a -> Thingy)
06:32:29 <lambdabot> forall a. (Ord a) => a -> a -> Ordering
06:32:31 <elliott> data Ordering a = Ordering (a -> a -> Ordering)
06:32:33 <shachaf> elliott: Unions are a bit of a problem.
06:32:38 <kmc> if you union two maps constructed with different ordering functions, you're gonna have a bad time
06:32:44 <kmc> but serves you right, or something
06:32:44 <elliott> which is why you actually want:
06:32:48 <elliott> empty :: (ord :: Ordering a) -> Map ord a
06:32:52 <elliott> and now you run into fun issues
06:32:57 <elliott> where you can't get two Maps with the same ordering to unify
06:33:06 <kmc> dependent types cat
06:33:28 <elliott> the type system is invariably incredibly inadequate for the task it is set, until you increase its power such that it becomes tangled up in its own mechanisms and stops working for anything
06:33:34 <kmc> data Ordering a = Ordering (a -> a -> Ordering a)
06:33:37 <elliott> I just hope the latter is due to our inexperience, rather than fundamental
06:33:37 <kmc> invent a use for this type, now
06:33:38 <shachaf> elliott: So Monads are also a maybe something?
06:33:40 <kmc> zardoz demands it
06:33:49 <elliott> kmc: it's a variadic function
06:33:55 <elliott> it's also a covariant functor
06:34:03 <shachaf> elliott: That's a description, not a use.
06:34:14 <kmc> elliott: i think it is due to inexperience, because people who don't know Haskell say the same thing about Java
06:34:35 <elliott> kmc: well I am 90% certain that, say, Agda is not The Way
06:34:51 <shachaf> Agda is certainly The Way to somewhere.
06:34:52 <elliott> admittedly I could not write an Agda program right now if you told me to but I understand how it works on a basic level
06:34:55 <elliott> and I can read a lot of the stdlib code
06:35:00 <shachaf> And I'm glad there are people who are going down it!
06:35:11 <elliott> it's just that every dependent type system seems to be so much more awkward than the simpler ones
06:35:29 <elliott> Epigram 2 sounds like it'd be better if McBride actually worked on it
06:35:38 <elliott> and i agree with him about totality
06:35:57 <kmc> yeah, i think this field is very new and we can't say it's reached the best possible solution
06:35:58 <Sgeo> What's McBride's opinion about totality?
06:36:42 <kmc> even Haskell and ML type systems are very new
06:36:52 <kmc> especially if you're talking about a time when more than 5 people use them
06:37:14 <kmc> and programming itself is very new ;P
06:37:41 <elliott> Sgeo: https://personal.cis.strath.ac.uk/conor.mcbride/pub/Totality.pdf
06:37:55 <elliott> basically I agree that our languages should be total
06:38:03 <elliott> and this does not impede their turing-completeness
06:38:25 <kmc> because you have a partiality monad?
06:38:39 <Sgeo> Where did I see something about optionally being able to mark functions as total?
06:38:44 <elliott> kmc: more or less, yes -- more directly, a potentially non-terminating computation is just codata
06:38:57 <elliott> codata Possibly a = Definitely a | WaitForIt (Possibly a)
06:38:58 <Sgeo> And/or non-totality being mentioned in the type system
06:39:08 <elliott> kmc: you can get your runtime system to evaluate these just fine
06:39:15 <elliott> just like the RTS executes the IO value for Haskell
06:39:24 <kmc> did he seriously redraw xkcd 386 on a whiteboard just to take a photo of it
06:39:31 <kmc> i can't decide if that's wonderful or pathetic
06:39:35 <elliott> conor mcbride can do whatever the fuck he wants
06:39:44 <elliott> kmc: -- indeed, the top-level value of your program should probably be something that can do both IO and partial computations
06:39:54 <elliott> kmc: if you have a nice algebraic effect system, then these can be defined independently!
06:40:22 <elliott> there are of course total functions that you have to represent as possibly non-terminating for obvious reasons
06:40:29 <Sgeo> elliott, will this thing explain what codata is?
06:40:41 <elliott> kmc: most directly and perhaps most meaningfully, an interpreter of the language itself
06:40:53 <elliott> kmc: but I don't mind that
06:40:58 <elliott> kmc: especially since you can have unsafePerformPartial
06:41:03 <elliott> with all the standard caveats
06:41:10 <elliott> Sgeo: no, but codata is simple
06:41:39 <elliott> is data, were haskell strict
06:41:43 <elliott> (the strictness being important)
06:41:55 <elliott> Sgeo: with *codata*, you don't have to guarantee you can evaluate it all in finite time
06:42:04 <elliott> Sgeo: all you have to do is guarantee that you can peel off *one constructor* in finite time
06:42:13 <elliott> this is a valid piece of codata
06:42:24 <elliott> because you can't peel a (:) or [] off it in finite time
06:42:32 <elliott> so basically, you can always examine codata further
06:42:36 <elliott> but it does not necessarily have any end
06:42:44 <elliott> codata Sometime a = Now a | Later (Sometime a)
06:43:02 <Sgeo> A lazy list based on network operations would NOT be codata, correct?
06:43:16 <elliott> anyway, Haskell makes everything into codata
06:43:20 <elliott> unless you make it into data by using !
06:43:27 <elliott> I think that "lazy lists" are a bad idea
06:43:34 <elliott> what you want is either lists-the-data, or colists-the-codata
06:43:38 <elliott> or, possibly, streams-the-codata
06:43:43 <elliott> (streams being codata Stream a = Cons a (Stream a))
06:43:51 <elliott> (in fact colists are probably rare compared to lists and streams)
06:48:28 <zzo38> I have made the idea for Ibtlfmm which you can have two maps or sets of the same type but different ordering, but you cannot union them because these maps are of different types even though their contents are the same. I think this is the way they should be done
06:50:37 <zzo38> At least Objective C is really a strict superset of C, unlike C++ which differs a bit.
06:52:27 <kmc> it's tragic how many parts of C++ got fucked over thanks to needing C compatibility, and then they threw out the latter anyway over some dumb shit
06:53:03 <shachaf> The worst part is how the "auto" keyword is no longer backwards-compatible.
06:53:07 <shachaf> Breaks all my programs. :-(
06:53:16 <pikhq> You... Use auto in C?
06:53:27 <shachaf> pikhq: When I want an automatic variable, sure!
06:53:30 <kmc> is there any point to the auto kw in C?
06:53:47 <kmc> consistency is a point, i suppose
06:54:00 <shachaf> It's kind of surprising that Algol 68 came before C.
06:54:12 <kmc> It's kind of surprising that Algol 68 came before Go.
06:54:48 <shachaf> In fact it's the first article I ever read about Algol 68.
06:55:13 <kmc> what do you all think of Rust?
06:55:45 <Sgeo> Should I learn OCaml or Clojure?
06:56:06 <kmc> yeah, Rust seems cool
06:56:17 <Sgeo> Is Rust any further along these days?
06:56:21 <Sgeo> Something actually usable?
06:56:30 <kmc> it seems like an informed, clever attempt to improve on C in C's niche
06:56:49 <zzo38> Do you know the BLISS programming language? It has some ideas which I think are some better than C. So we should have something which combines features of BLISS, C, and LLVM.
06:57:27 <kmc> whereas Go seems like an attempt to simplify Java further and then make the syntax weird enough that C programmers won't feel it's a slight to their e-penises
06:57:56 <Sgeo> kmc, Go has that thing where it has language-defined generics but no way for users to define them?/
06:57:59 <kmc> that's a fine way to help society
06:58:04 <kmc> but not much to interest me
06:58:32 <shachaf> Most things I've seen relating to Rust have made me think "oh, that's neat".
06:58:35 <kmc> shachaf: i thought it wasn't so much GC as reference counting + uniqueness types
06:58:38 <kmc> maybe it has all of these
06:58:38 <shachaf> Mostly it's been slides and such.
06:59:06 <Sgeo> iirc, Rust has a special GC... part... thingy...
06:59:12 <shachaf> kmc: Oh, it's an optional GC with some of those other things, yes.
06:59:24 <Sgeo> Erm, as in, mutable, immutable, GC, but then GC got merged in with mutable or separated out?
07:01:40 <shachaf> kmc: I once considered writing something in Rust but I saw how volatile it was.
07:02:31 <kmc> yes, aiui, it's not there yet
07:02:36 <shachaf> There are six possible coercions, termed "deproceduring", "dereferencing", "uniting", "widening", "rowing" and "voiding"
07:03:32 <kmc> voiding while rowing considered harmful
07:04:54 <Sgeo> Does Rust have a way to..... specify how to do destructuring?
07:05:00 <Sgeo> I think I'm thinking of Scala's unapply
07:05:05 <Sgeo> But I may be wrong
07:05:14 <Sgeo> (And have no idea what Scala's unapply does)
07:06:39 <shachaf> kmc: If more and more things annoy me in general in the world, does it mean I'm getting old?
07:06:52 <kmc> i have been wondering that myself
07:08:28 <Sgeo> In Rust, is the stack closure/box closure distinction ultimately for optimization? Couldn't everything use box closures?
07:08:59 <Sgeo> Oh, box closures can't mutate their environment, I guess?
07:09:52 <kmc> stack closures are allocated on the stack?
07:11:01 <Sgeo> "As a further simplification, if the final parameter to a function is a closure, the closure need not be placed within parentheses. You could, for example, write..."
07:11:15 * Sgeo sticks his tongue out at Ruby
07:12:02 <Sgeo> let doubled = vec::map([1, 2, 3]) {|x| x*2};
07:12:41 -!- MoALTz has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
07:12:52 <kmc> is that only for lambda syntax?
07:13:02 <kmc> or is it actually for anything of type 'function'
07:13:12 <shachaf> It's not "the last argument"
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07:14:09 <shachaf> Ruby has a special argument slot for a callable thing.
07:14:29 <shachaf> When you say foo(...) { ... }, it passes a new Proc in that special argument slot.
07:14:54 <shachaf> def foo(arg1, arg2, &block) is the way you define a function that takes the callable thing.
07:15:07 <Sgeo> I like Rust's way better
07:15:07 <shachaf> You can alos pass anything in the block slot with the same syntax: foo(arg1, arg2, &b)
07:16:24 <shachaf> This is pretty fundamental to the way Ruby does things, and while it's a little weird, it can be nice.
07:16:29 <shachaf> Sgeo: Have you learned about the distinction between procs and lambdas yet?
07:17:12 <Sgeo> shachaf, erm, I know there's a distinction between do/end and {/} which amounts to precedence.
07:17:51 <Sgeo> What's the difference between proc and lambda?
07:17:57 <kmc> shachaf: the difference is that return inside a block returns from the enclosing function?
07:18:09 <kmc> so it's a bit like it captures a continuation as well
07:18:11 <shachaf> But you can't use it to implement callcc. :-(
07:18:32 <shachaf> It just throws an exception if you use it after the function has returned.
07:18:45 <Sgeo> So one does a Smalltalk-like ^ and the other does just a normal... thingy?
07:19:29 <shachaf> def foo; b = lambda { return 5; }; [1,2,3].map(&b); end
07:19:37 <shachaf> def bar; b = proc { return 5; }; [1,2,3].map(&b); end
07:20:25 <kmc> foo returns [5,5,5], bar returns 5?
07:20:46 <kmc> no, they both return 5
07:21:06 <kmc> what gives
07:21:24 <elliott> lambda and proc are the same
07:23:12 <kmc> so how do you get a normal lambda
07:24:04 <kmc> how do i declare an anonymous function which returns 5
07:24:13 <kmc> er not 'declare' but create, as a value
07:24:25 <shachaf> def foo; b = lambda { return 5 }; ['hi', b.call]; end
07:24:27 <elliott> if you mean somethiing you can do
07:24:31 <shachaf> def foo; b = Proc.new { return 5 }; ['hi', b.call]; end
07:24:34 <elliott> if you mean something you can do
07:24:58 <elliott> ruby's solution to this is honestly not as bad as it sounds given certain syntactic things ruby desires
07:25:01 <shachaf> proc == lambda != Proc.new
07:25:04 <elliott> but it's kind of ugly even then
07:25:26 <kmc> shachaf: but you can't call the result of Proc.new without .call?
07:25:40 <elliott> kmc: that doesn't really make *sense*
07:25:44 <elliott> in foo(bar), foo isn't a value
07:25:49 <kmc> why the fuck not
07:25:54 <kmc> what kind of shit-ass language is this
07:25:59 <kmc> even in C, foo there is a value
07:26:01 <shachaf> kmc: Ruby supports calling functions without parentheses.
07:26:13 <shachaf> If you want the value foo you can use Method.new(:foo) or something like that.
07:26:14 <elliott> ruby is a bad language but this isn't as unreasonable as it sounds
07:26:25 <shachaf> This is inherited from Perl.
07:26:32 <kmc> that's no excuse
07:27:04 <Sgeo> Is Ruby better or worse than OCaml?
07:27:34 <kmc> what a shitty question
07:27:52 <kmc> languages are not totally ordered
07:27:54 <kmc> except for PHP
07:28:40 <Sgeo> CAOS is worse.
07:29:04 <kmc> Sgeo: what are you looking for in a language, anyway
07:29:06 <kmc> what do you want to use it for
07:29:19 <Sgeo> I guess "Everything" isn't a good answer
07:29:26 <kmc> it's... an OK answer
07:29:29 <monqy> for comparing it with other languages !!
07:29:38 <elliott> he just learns languages and gives up on them
07:30:00 <Sgeo> I actually do write code sometimes.
07:30:39 <Sgeo> https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/Antiposeball-5-SAVE-PRIMS-ON-FURNITURE/219014 is not a thing that could exists if I did not write code.
07:31:10 <kmc> shachaf: did you see my .COM file?
07:31:21 <kmc> h<|XP- {P_X(%GGG(%GGWZ- sh LI!XI!Hello, DOS!$
07:31:48 <kmc> i wonder if this can be made smaller
07:32:12 <elliott> kmc: wrote a program which turned strings of text into printable com files that printed them
07:32:17 <elliott> kmc: which was itself a printable COM file, I think
07:32:22 <elliott> or was it a uudecoder in printable COM
07:32:26 <elliott> it's awesome ask him about it
07:32:31 <elliott> i think it was a uudecoder yeah
07:32:38 <elliott> so he could transfer binary files over text lines
07:34:05 <pikhq> Perhaps just COMBOOT.
07:34:33 <elliott> a PHP bug where I completely agree with the PHP team in every respect and think the behaviour is reasonable
07:34:43 <elliott> https://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=50696
07:34:57 <kmc> yeah i have some sympathy for their position as well
07:35:10 <kmc> if that person really has this hellish dev environment, they should have been testing RCs
07:35:12 <pikhq> (format supported by syslinux bootloaders, in its 16 bit mode, if not using Syslinux-specific APIs, is a COM file that only uses BIOS calls)
07:35:21 <elliott> the best part is where the reporter asks rasmus to escalate the issue
07:35:23 <kmc> that said the function shouldn't return 0 or NULL, it should throw an exception
07:35:26 <kmc> yes i lolled at that
07:35:38 <pikhq> Oh, sorry, has a small handful of DOS APIs.
07:35:48 <elliott> kmc: php doesn't really have "errors"
07:35:53 <pikhq> (anything trivial)
07:37:16 <Sgeo> Is it significantly likely that the problem can't be fixed with a search/replace, perhaps to a custom function that emulates the old behavior?
07:37:33 <kmc> did you read the thread
07:37:47 <kmc> "Each of those changes will have to be coded, tested, written-off, released, tested by the clients since this is tax data and has to be precise for tax planning and retirement planning."
07:39:06 <Sgeo> ...for every changed line of code?
07:42:43 <kmc> apparently something on that order
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07:50:29 <elliott> Sgeo: rasmus gives the exact search and replace
07:50:38 <elliott> it's adding a single cast to the first argument of every function
07:50:56 <shachaf> I thought it was that anti-virus test code thing, but I guess not.
07:51:13 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
07:51:13 <kmc> yeah i wrote it
07:51:20 <kmc> as part of adding COM support to my polyglot
07:51:50 <Sgeo> Maybe they're using eval?
07:52:00 <shachaf> Is that self-modifying code?
07:52:05 <Sgeo> I mean, that would be stupid, but given who we're dealing with
07:52:27 <Sgeo> *using eval in ... ways worse than normal eval.
07:55:15 <elliott> Rasmus Lerdorf is a braindamaged idiot. He always was, and it was obvious from start. Shame on everybody who uses anything he touched.
07:55:15 <elliott> He could escalate, he could ask some adults to fix this issue. But he won't because he is naughty.
07:55:19 <elliott> kmc: did you know proggit is the best
07:55:49 <elliott> meanwhile at the top of hacker news "16,000 core neural net (andrew ng/jeff dean) - singularity is near (research.google.com)"
07:56:30 <kmc> shachaf: yes
07:56:44 <kmc> shachaf: because the interrupt instruction is not ASCII
07:57:00 <shachaf> Is there any non-self-modifying way to do it?
07:57:14 <kmc> not that i know, but feel free to try :)
07:57:19 <elliott> is there any non-self-modifying way to execute some code that is not in ASCII with just ASCII
07:57:19 <kmc> i am curious to hear about any improvements to this code
07:57:30 <elliott> scan RAM for the interrupt instruction
07:57:36 <kmc> well there are other ways to get to the "print shit on the screen" code
07:57:40 <elliott> then you don't self-modify
07:57:41 <shachaf> elliott: I'm wondering whether there's a jump instruction.
07:57:44 <elliott> it's just like self-modification
07:57:58 <kmc> or just read the interrupt vector table and then far jump to the right place
07:58:24 <kmc> the instructions you get are: or and daa sub das xor aaa cmp aas inc dec push pop pusha popa push insb insw outsb outsw jo jno jb jae jz jnz jbe ja js jns jp jnp jl jge jle
07:58:28 <kmc> but not every form of those
07:58:58 <shachaf> Wait, you have those jumps?
07:59:05 <shachaf> Is it different in real mode?
08:00:22 <Sgeo> As.... biased I may be against Republicans, how is http://2012.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/06/richard-mourdock-obamacare-youtube-accident.php?ref=fpa a big deal at all
08:00:46 <kmc> shachaf: this is real mode
08:00:50 <Sgeo> (Some guy accidentally posted video reactions to several possible Supreme Court rulings)
08:00:57 <kmc> yes, you have conditional jumps
08:00:57 <shachaf> kmc: Right, which is why I was asking.
08:00:59 <kmc> positive offsets only
08:01:18 <kmc> oh you also have bound and arpl but those aren't on the 8086
08:01:32 <kmc> and i didn't include \t because fuck tabs
08:03:04 <john_metcalf> Have you tried using the INT at 0000h or the long call at 0005h?
08:03:29 <shachaf> That's not very printable!
08:03:41 <kmc> you can construct such numbers (this code does)
08:03:47 <kmc> but there's no indirect jump/call, either
08:04:06 <john_metcalf> I mean in memory 0000h or 00005h when a .COM file runs. They're in the header.
08:04:36 <shachaf> kmc: Next step: Write a printable MBR
08:04:53 <kmc> shachaf: the last byte of a MBR isn't printable
08:04:56 <kmc> so, like, what's the point, man
08:06:05 <zzo38> Write just the executable program part of MBR as printable
08:07:00 <elliott> challenge: write a printable bootloader
08:07:19 <elliott> kmc: oh, I think what ais523 wrote is something which turned any program printable through self-modification
08:07:25 <elliott> and then converted a uudecoder with it
08:07:44 <elliott> john_metcalf: Yeah, but how do you encode that address in the printable code?
08:07:52 <elliott> I guess you just have to alculate it.
08:08:05 <kmc> but how do you jump there once you calculated
08:08:24 <elliott> kmc: I'm having trouble groking the purpose of the Functor type class. What benefit is there in deriving a class from Functor? Especially since every derived type is going to have to supply an implementation anyway.
08:09:06 <elliott> Sgeo: that's really dumb "newS"
08:09:21 <Sgeo> elliott, I agree.
08:09:31 <elliott> as tired as "all political parties are the same lol dumbos" stuff is you can't really expect reasonability on either side of a political campaign
08:09:57 <Sgeo> The Fark thread on it has a few people objecting to the fact that the messages were pre-recorded, rather than just the speech being pre-written
08:10:49 <Sgeo> Again, I think that's silly.
08:11:25 <pikhq> I'm honestly not surprised to find that he did that at all...
08:12:00 <pikhq> I mean, heck, it straight-up makes *sense* to have a bunch of speeches pre-written, and pre-recording them is just one extra step.
08:12:01 <kmc> elliott: you are quoting?
08:12:20 <pikhq> Especially makes sense for a person who is probably quite busy.
08:12:37 <Sgeo> pikhq, absolutely
08:12:38 <pikhq> Record a bunch of responses for things over the course of an afternoon, release as needed.
08:13:17 <pikhq> Bit of an embarassing accident to release them all, but it's still *not a big deal*.
08:13:35 <kmc> look at me i say "grok" instead of "understand" without understanding what "grok" means
08:13:37 <Sgeo> pikhq, arguably it's humorous
08:13:40 <kmc> horp glurp ponk donk
08:14:01 <kmc> falling into the balls tank
08:14:10 * pikhq should grok some more water
08:14:15 <kmc> beer me that water, bro
08:14:35 * pikhq actually read the damned book, so there. :P
08:14:43 <Sgeo> Hmm, I should read that law
08:16:14 <kmc> you know nixon had a speech prepared in case they had to leave neil armstrong and buzz aldrin stranded on the moon to die
08:16:19 <kmc> it's a shame there's no recording of that
08:16:43 <pikhq> I thought he hadn't actually recorded it.
08:16:51 <elliott> pikhq: hence why there is no recording of it
08:16:53 <kmc> "We drop turkeys out of planes just to fill up the sky / And we know damn well that they can't fly"
08:16:57 <elliott> you don't record live speeches :P
08:17:00 <pikhq> IIRC, the one he actually read was done live.
08:17:01 <kmc> elliott is a winner
08:17:49 <kmc> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/390933.stm
08:17:55 <pikhq> Bit weird, realising we went to the *moon* at a time where it was impractical to pre-record the President.
08:18:26 <shachaf> kmc: have you been to the moon ??
08:18:53 <kmc> pikhq: not really impractical
08:19:18 <kmc> i mean NASA recorded all that video from the moon on magnetic tape
08:19:24 <kmc> and film works too
08:19:39 <kmc> there's just not much of a point to it
08:19:50 <pikhq> kmc: At the time, you'd only record stuff if you wanted it to run more than once, in part because of the expense.
08:19:57 <kmc> if the president can't be trusted to give a speech without fucking it up then...
08:20:06 * kmc reflects on 2001-2008
08:20:14 * pikhq joins kmc in reflection
08:20:22 <zzo38> If you have never been to the moon, can you prove it?
08:20:35 <kmc> shit, if we reflect each other then we'll create a quantum time vortex that might rip the very fabric of spacetime from this channel!
08:20:56 <zzo38> What is a quantum time vortex?
08:21:02 <kmc> what *isn't* a quantum time vortex, man
08:21:08 <shachaf> zzo38: It's a science thing. You wouldn't understand.
08:21:25 <pikhq> "We are working hard to convince both the Indians and the Pakis there's a way to deal with their problems without going to war."
08:21:40 <elliott> <kmc> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/390933.stm
08:21:47 <elliott> thus proving that the bbc news site has always been the best-designed of all the news sites
08:21:50 <lambdabot> Politics would be a helluva good business if it weren't for the goddamned people.
08:22:08 <elliott> (displays were tiny in 1999 so that probably looked non-terrible!)
08:22:25 <elliott> "Labour "got it wrong" when it allowed uncontrolled immigration from new EU states in 2004, Ed Miliband will say in a speech later."
08:22:29 <elliott> "The Labour leader will say people who worry about immigration are not "bigots""
08:22:49 <elliott> apparently labour has decided that moving to the right is an excellent idea at a time when the right-leaning coalition government is unpopular
08:23:12 <elliott> and the most left-wing main party has become kinda unelectable
08:23:39 <pikhq> Isn't it a standard policy to always move right when your policies are unliked?
08:23:44 <shachaf> Can 5-HT_2A agonists take me to the moon?
08:24:09 <kmc> shachaf: well, if you can raise $100M selling them
08:24:29 <pikhq> "I hear there's rumors on the internets [pause] that we're going to have a draft. We're not going to have a draft, period." — Bush, 2004
08:24:35 <pikhq> He actually said internets?
08:24:37 <kmc> "in 2005, Space Adventures announced its intention to work with Russian Spacecraft manufacturer Energia and the Russian Space Agency to offer a roughly one-week two-passenger flight around the Moon (no orbit, no landing) in a booster-equipped Soyuz craft for $100 million per person, as early as 2010"
08:24:57 <kmc> dude, "internets" is a fine word
08:25:14 <kmc> Bush was just acknowledging the reality that the Internet is itself composed of smaller internetworks
08:25:16 <pikhq> kmc: Yes, but it doesn't refer (just) to the Internet.
08:25:31 <pikhq> I don't think Bush knows that much about internetworking.
08:25:45 <kmc> n.b. once they have your $100 million they will probably ask for more
08:25:48 <kmc> http://wikitravel.org/en/Space
08:26:10 <shachaf> what if, like, every ip address that doesn't respond on the internet is like a BLACK HOLE
08:26:11 <elliott> pikhq: as bushisms go that is really tame come on
08:26:14 <elliott> you can do better than that
08:26:17 <shachaf> and, like, it has a whole new pocket internet inside it
08:26:38 <elliott> kmc: "There are quite a few space-related places on the Earth itself."
08:26:48 <Sgeo> elliott, is using DrRacket with the SICP language a good way to do SICP?
08:27:49 <pikhq> elliott: Yeahyeahyeah.
08:27:52 <pikhq> elliott: I'd rather not.
08:28:17 <pikhq> elliott: I'm afraid if I go for the worse one's I'll shoot. Myself or someone else, either way it's undesirable.
08:28:40 <shachaf> kmc: The whole point of going to the moon is landing.
08:28:47 <shachaf> Why would you go and then not land?
08:28:49 <kmc> i'm inclined to agree with you there
08:28:51 <elliott> kmc: "The sight of the *Earth* from Space is reputed to be incomparable."
08:28:57 <elliott> kmc: "At altitudes above the thick atmosphere, the *stars* cease to "twinkle"."
08:29:06 <elliott> kmc: "*Sunrise* and *sunset* lose much of their multicolored glory, but take on greater intensity and speed at orbital and even suborbital velocities."
08:29:29 <kmc> elliott: wow, I can get rid of my web browser
08:29:35 <kmc> thanxs elliot
08:29:59 <elliott> kmc: "Although Space food has come a long way in terms of taste and variety in recent decades, the quality and taste is still not up to standards of most connoisseurs of fine cuisine. Your transportation provider may offer some choice in the foods available, but you will ultimately be limited by their willingness to indulge you."
08:30:06 <elliott> kmc: "Bigelow Aerospace, [13]. In 2006, they successfully tested the first prototype of an inflatable Space hotel. However, even if everything goes according to plan, the real thing won't be up in orbit before 2012."
08:30:09 <kmc> elliott: BE SURE TO PASTE THE COPYRIGHT NOTICE TOO
08:30:17 <elliott> kmc: "Text is available under Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0, images are available under various licenses, see each image for details."
08:30:26 <shachaf> elliott: "i think kmc is hitnitng at somethign"
08:30:51 <elliott> shachaf: waht could he poIBSlY be hinting at - god - gad - gud
08:31:19 <kmc> yeah i was all ready to burn my draft card in 2003
08:31:38 <kmc> instead i watched on TV as the children of more economically disadvantaged families fought the war
08:31:42 <kmc> and then snarked about it on the internet
08:31:45 <kmc> that's protest too rite?
08:31:56 <pikhq> Nah, just fucking depressing.
08:32:16 <kmc> hey, remember when the USA literally filled a C-130 cargo plane with $20 bills and flew it to Iraq and then lost the money?
08:33:59 <shachaf> kmc: Are the legal 5-HT_2A agonists any good?
08:34:10 <kmc> didn't we discuss that recently
08:34:24 <kmc> 2C-E is pretty good, if you consider that legal
08:34:56 <kmc> 2,5-dimethoxy-4-ethyl-phenethylamine
08:35:38 <kmc> uh, 5-HT is a legal 5-HT agonist and is a pretty cool guy
08:35:54 <kmc> not much good taking it orally though
08:35:57 <shachaf> What does the 2A part mean?
08:36:02 <kmc> it's a receptor subtype
08:36:24 <kmc> they're all serotonin (5-HT) receptors but there are different types which respond differently to different other chemicals
08:36:28 <kmc> i don't know man, i'm not a neurochemist
08:37:10 <kmc> to the extent these drugs have different effects, it's probably through different receptor type selectivity
08:37:28 <kmc> the only really clear example I have is DiPT, which has a specific auditory effect which the others don't have
08:37:44 <kmc> sort of a nonlinear pitch shift + flanging
08:38:00 <kmc> i think shulgin got one of his musician friends with perfect pitch to take it
08:39:20 <kmc> uh, 5-HTP is a metabolic precursor to 5-HT that you can buy at any dietary supplement store
08:39:24 <kmc> over the counter
08:39:41 <fizzie> I'm no expert, but effects like that sound easier to do by just running some filters on a DSP or whatever, instead of trying to do it in your auditory system.
08:39:45 <kmc> it's supposed to act as a mild antidepressant
08:40:12 <kmc> fizzie: i think you are missing the point :)
08:40:17 <oklopol> also, you're not an expert?
08:40:22 <itidus21> one day it will be possible to generate sounds by physical simulation of vibration :D
08:40:31 <itidus21> i wonder how far away such things are
08:40:46 <kmc> i think that was done in like the 80's
08:40:51 <kmc> like most of the things itidus21 says will happen "one day"
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08:41:19 <fizzie> They do physical-inspired string instrument simulation in our acoustics lab.
08:41:22 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_modeling_synthesis
08:41:39 <fizzie> They've written some papers on Finnish instruments like the kantele.
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08:42:06 <fizzie> They all include some amount of approximation, though.
08:42:12 <oklopol> sounds like a sensible starting point given that it's the stupidest instrument in the world
08:42:16 <itidus21> well i have a number in my nickname... like a robot!
08:42:23 <kmc> apparently the electric kantele is used in finnish heavy metal
08:42:27 <fizzie> It's not exactly modeling strings at subatomic level.
08:42:43 <kmc> modeling strings by modeling strings
08:42:46 <kmc> this is what we demand
08:42:50 <kmc> zardoz has spoken
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08:43:28 <fizzie> http://www.acoustics.hut.fi/research/asp/
08:43:28 <oklopol> as they say, you can't simulate strings without understanding string theory
08:43:56 <fizzie> They also have some lutes. And "mainstream" stuff.
08:44:03 <itidus21> they also say you can tune a piano, but you can't tuna fish
08:44:09 <fizzie> I haven't really looked too closely.
08:45:31 <kmc> mmmm shin ramyun
08:45:35 <kmc> this is my new favorite snack
08:46:35 <kmc> instant ramen
08:46:48 <kmc> far tastier and more filling than top ramen / maruchan
08:46:53 <kmc> it's like $1 a pack instead of 20¢
08:47:28 <kmc> hm the one i have contains beef powder
08:47:32 <kmc> i don't know if they make other flavors
08:47:38 <kmc> it's also quite spicy
08:50:23 <pikhq> shachaf: Alas, that probably comes in two varieties: "with meat" and "animal genocide".
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08:51:05 <pikhq> Genocide against the clade Animalia.
08:51:15 <kmc> isn't that, like, regicide
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09:00:39 <kmc> shachaf: here's the source to my com file https://gist.github.com/2971501
09:00:42 <kmc> if you want to make it better
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09:01:46 <shachaf> I like how the source file has the compiled binary in a comment.
09:02:34 <elliott> BBC News headline: Player 'completes' Diablo III video game
09:03:28 <kmc> shachaf: but i missed the opportunity to make the source code also an executable com file
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09:04:19 <itidus21> BBC is an example of the confusion
09:04:58 <shachaf> kmc: You know dot-coms haven't been "all the rage" for more than 10 years, right?
09:05:03 <shachaf> It's all about the agile social now.
09:05:05 <kmc> i'm bringing it back
09:05:17 <itidus21> it's not the English Broadcasting Corporation, or the UK Broadcasting Corporation
09:07:03 <itidus21> "[The BBC's] main responsibility is to provide impartial public service broadcasting in the United Kingdom, Channel Islands and Isle of Man."
09:09:41 <kmc> why are you jigging
09:09:49 <elliott> [[In addition, he used a "hard core" character. This meant that, if the character died once, the game would be over. He also got in-game help from another player called Krippi.]]
09:10:09 <kmc> itidus21: BBC does serve the parts of UK which are not in Britain
09:11:44 <kmc> i think the UK situation is less complicated than NYC-area place names
09:13:33 <kmc> say, NYC, Manhattan (borough), Manhattan (island), Brooklyn, Kings County, Long Island, and "The City"
09:13:43 <kmc> it's a bit of a mess to explain how these things relate geographically and politically
09:13:49 <elliott> kmc: Can you implement a better language than Haskell for me?
09:13:57 <kmc> shachaf: some people use it to mean Manhattan
09:14:08 <elliott> New York, New York, so good they named it once but then used the same name again
09:14:13 <kmc> i don't *think* i made that up
09:14:17 <shachaf> elliott: And Manhattan is New York County!
09:14:17 <elliott> probably because they were unimaginative
09:14:29 <kmc> and if you live in manhattan you can get mail addressed to "New York, NY"
09:15:04 <kmc> but not in the other parts of NYC?
09:15:19 <kmc> i mean it will probably work but it's not proper
09:15:21 <kmc> "SIPB, MIT, USA"
09:15:47 <kmc> but you can have a New York, NY address even if you live in that part of Manhattan (borough) which is not on Manhattan (island)
09:15:58 <kmc> but if you live there you can also have a Bronx, NY address, I think
09:16:04 <shachaf> Structure and Interpretation of Pomputer Brograms?
09:16:52 <elliott> are brograms what a brogrammer writes
09:17:20 <shachaf> elliott: do they really use the word 'programmme' in britain
09:17:53 <shachaf> I don't watch many brogrammes. I don't even own one.
09:18:01 <kmc> but do you pay TV tax?!?
09:18:36 <kmc> in UK you have to pay a license fee to have a TV
09:18:39 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Television_licensing_in_the_United_Kingdom
09:18:56 <kmc> "Licences are half price for the legally blind."
09:19:14 <shachaf> As of 2010, this costs £145.50 for colour and £49.00 for black and white.[1]
09:19:21 <shachaf> They should charge more for black and white.
09:19:43 <shachaf> Also, can we have us.wikipedia.org and uk.wikpedia.org?
09:20:25 <kmc> wikipædia.org
09:20:37 <itidus21> i guess au.wikipedia.org would be asking too much
09:21:21 <itidus21> shachaf: i see what you're saying now
09:21:31 <kmc> also the BBC has vans which they claim can detect unlicensed TVs
09:21:45 <itidus21> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color
09:21:59 <kmc> which is widely considered to be bullshit
09:23:30 <itidus21> "The color table should not be interpreted as a definitive list the pure spectral colors form a continuous spectrum, and how it is divided into distinct colors linguistically is a matter of culture and historical contingency (although people everywhere have been shown to perceive colors in the same way[2])."
09:23:58 <kmc> dude, what if, like, yeah
09:24:30 <itidus21> so uk.wikipedia.org could be s/color/colour
09:24:42 <shachaf> I'm more concerned with "license" and "licence".
09:24:46 <shachaf> Since the en. page uses both.
09:26:06 <itidus21> and yet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Favourite
09:27:33 <itidus21> "Successful minister-favourites also usually needed networks of their own favourites and relatives to help them carry out the work of government - Richelieu had his "cratures" and Olivares his "hechuras"."
09:27:56 <kmc> shachaf: well you need to use one of each, so it will be legally binding in all jurisdictions
09:29:36 <elliott> kmc: it is obviously bullshit
09:29:43 <elliott> kmc: also they tend to pester people even if they don't own a tv
09:30:04 <elliott> (otoh, the people who get *persistently* pestered by them tend to be the sorts who seem to be looking for something to complain about in the first place)
09:30:14 <elliott> kmc: you should see their tv ads
09:30:28 <elliott> let me find the one i'm thinking of
09:30:59 <elliott> kmc: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uIpbpSU3XA
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10:00:04 <oklopol> fizzie: erm, so where can you actually hear the results?
10:00:15 <oklopol> http://www.acoustics.hut.fi/research/asp/ just has a bunch of papers
10:02:49 <itidus21> and so what does that audio topic mean for me? quite simply a game with no pre-recorded audio!
10:05:38 <itidus21> i dunno much about sound and music and stuff.. but like for example, the current sound could be a function of the distances between all the geometrical game entities
10:07:02 <itidus21> like if there were 3 circles, then the sound could be a function of the average distance between them
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10:32:09 <itidus21> i guess you would set up a virtual microphone which would recieve soundwaves
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12:02:36 <itidus21> my turing machine! http://oi50.tinypic.com/29z9egm.jpg
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12:30:50 <kmc> itidus21: simulating sound propogation is something that games have done for a long time
12:32:43 <itidus21> kmc: it seems to me that a variable sound response could be a fun way to respond to a collision
12:33:52 <itidus21> like normally that collision response information seems to be used for, well, i'm not sure.. but it could be used as a function of how loud an impact is
12:35:41 <kmc> i think that is done also
12:35:57 <itidus21> but most people have better sense than to do it :D
12:36:08 <kmc> i'm confused
12:36:25 <itidus21> like when an object runs headlong into a wall and the velocity gets set to zero. the amount of velocity which was lost could produce a sound
12:36:32 <kmc> why is that a bad idea
12:37:24 <itidus21> i can't see any particular reason why
12:37:52 <kmc> anyway, what you said about the circles flying around and making music and whatever
12:38:07 <kmc> at first i assumed you were just talking about modeling sound propogation in an environment
12:38:13 <kmc> which is not a novel idea -- games have done that for many years
12:38:27 <kmc> but then i thought you meant something more like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auditorium_(video_game)
12:38:30 <kmc> which is a neat game
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12:41:35 <itidus21> kmc: well in this whole topic, im in trouble from the get-go... my conception of producing sound is nothing beyond the QBASIC function SOUND(frequency, duration)
12:42:03 <itidus21> actually i didnt know it had a duration argument until i looked it up just now
12:42:47 <kmc> yeah i gathered as much
12:42:53 <kmc> video game sound is in fact a bit more complex these days ;P
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12:46:09 <itidus21> so, about 3 circles {a,b,c} .. what i had in mind was something like: n=distance(a,b)+distance(a,c)+distance(b,c)/3; SOUND(n,30 milliseconds?)
12:47:03 <itidus21> and actually i think it would be kind of cool in such a system how destroying one of the circles would lead to a sudden change in the sound
12:47:53 <itidus21> well n could be normalized into a comfortable set of frequencies
12:48:34 <itidus21> and this page says duration works in clock ticks.. that could be "tricky"
12:52:06 <itidus21> it was within the last few months i think that it clicked to me that sound can be produced within a physics simulation
12:52:54 <itidus21> to the extent that with enough computing power and good algorithms behind it, we could even hear how fictional objects and instruments might sound
12:53:52 <itidus21> ah but i don't even know what i mean by fictional objects!
12:56:39 <itidus21> perhaps we could simulate the sound of filling some time and place with air and putting a microphone there
12:59:41 <itidus21> i wonder if the truth is if i actually did more in my day i wouldn't feel the need to ramble
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13:33:26 <Gregor> itidus21: http://arxiv.org/abs/1203.1895
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13:35:46 <itidus21> Gregor: infact i actually linked to the very same thing in this room once >:D
13:35:56 <itidus21> but it is time to take a closer look
13:36:21 <itidus21> i hadnt read it.. :-j white papers are mostly about reading the titles for me
13:37:07 <itidus21> but i am working on a cool turing machine
13:37:40 <itidus21> and lost deep in browser tab hell
13:42:07 <boily> itidus21: turing machine and browser tabs... hmm... is it possible to crate a machine where the tape is an infinite stream of browser tabs?
13:44:13 <AnotherTest> boily: not on the iPad for sure(unless they changed that awful limit)
13:44:42 <itidus21> boily: well.. i am fascinated by the movement of a turtle shell in super mario bros. and the way the turtle shell resembles a tapehead
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13:46:51 <itidus21> i think i am satisfied now that the turtle shell is a turing machine, not a turing complete language
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14:18:07 <elliott> Patashu[Zzz]: don't do that :(
14:18:25 <itidus21> wow... so i go to google and i see the last thing i expected to see
14:19:28 <oerjan> <shachaf> Also, can we have us.wikipedia.org and uk.wikpedia.org? <-- you can have the latter.
14:20:00 <oerjan> you may find it disappointingly non-british, though.
14:21:13 <itidus21> so this is the turing machine i made just now: http://oi47.tinypic.com/35n31ip.jpg
14:39:25 <Slereah> http://esolangs.org/wiki/NTCM
14:58:44 <itidus21> Slereah: so i have a version of python on windows but i have no idea about python.. but it's giving invalid syntax for the > in "while b<>"esc":"
14:59:14 <itidus21> i assume that something in python has changed which has rendered old programs not working right
15:00:12 <itidus21> or that its something screwy with document formats etc
15:00:27 <itidus21> but something tells me i can assume the program itself is fine
15:03:10 <boily> itidus21: "<>" is a very, very old way to write "!=".
15:04:21 <itidus21> i think it just doesn't like the encoding..
15:06:16 <itidus21> ok i told it the proper encoding
15:06:49 <oerjan> <> is obsolete, but still in the manual, so it should work...
15:12:34 <boily> it still works in python 2 (2.7.3 on my machine), but chokes in python 3 (3.2.3).
15:17:02 <AnotherTest> is there an esolang which is based on the idea where the instruction pointer is at multiple positions at the same time
15:21:36 <itidus21> what i had to change was to replace all the <> with != and to change print foo into print (foo) and change raw_input to input
15:22:17 <oerjan> ah so you have python 3
15:22:37 <itidus21> yeah, not for any good reason though
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15:29:45 <itidus21> i was gonna look into pygame but then i regained my self respect
15:39:10 <itidus21> hmm.. i piped it into a textfile.. which i think is pretty good for a novice windows user
15:39:27 <itidus21> and i quickly got 4mb of hello world!
15:40:59 <itidus21> which leads me to think, a file system should have optional size constraints
15:41:16 <itidus21> so you can say, this file cannot become larger than N bytes
15:41:41 <itidus21> << this is why i don't design OSs
15:53:58 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
15:54:39 <itidus21> install windows once, install directx many
15:54:58 <itidus21> install linux many, install opengl once
16:02:53 <Gregor> But if you use Steam on Wine on Linux... D-8
16:06:07 <quintopia> Gregor: did you put egobot on umlbox yet
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16:24:16 <fizzie> We have a national midsummer holiday day today; no exams.
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16:42:21 <Taneb> Well, the exam went well
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17:05:24 <Taneb> The lines in xkcd are thicker now
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17:10:35 <fizzie> It might be a scale thing. The dude is taller than the last dude, too.
17:11:16 <fizzie> (I haven't checked if they stay a consistent size.)
17:28:14 <Slereah> itidus21 : So did the program work in the end?
17:28:47 <itidus21> infact i just now got the use out of it i wanted
17:29:07 <itidus21> but.. i will show you my turing machine in NTCM
17:29:38 <itidus21> [4[5:P0RI:0;0:P0RI:0;1:P1RI:0;2:P2RI:0;3:P3RI:0;4:P4RI:0]|0[5:P4LE:1;0:P0RI:0;1:P0RI:2;2:P1LE:1;3:P2LE:1;4:P4LE:1]|1[5:P4RI:0;0:P0LE:1;1:P0LE:3;2:P1RI:0;3:P2RI:0;4:P4RI:0]|2[5:P4LE:3;0:P0RI:2;1:P0RI:2;2:P1LE:3;3:P2LE:3;4:P0LE:1]|3[5:P4RI:2;0:P0LE:3;1:P0LE:3;2:P1RI:2;3:P2RI:2;4:P0RI:0]][0=5;ims=4;d10;vh;etFecF;t1]
17:31:13 <itidus21> also i added 2 or 3 lines of python so that it will animate the output so i can watch it move
17:32:18 <itidus21> since this machine is really for that purpose >:-)
17:35:45 <Slereah> Iiii don't have Python anymore
17:36:17 <itidus21> well.. it's inspired by super mario bros. turtle shells
17:36:32 <quintopia> NTCM? is that a list of states and transitions? i can almost read it.
17:36:41 <itidus21> it's about the head bouncing back and forth
17:37:22 <quintopia> 4:P0LE:1 does that mean go to state 4, move left, leave behind a 1?
17:38:14 <fizzie> The "0=5;ims=4;d10;vh;etFecF;t1" seems somewhat nontrivial to figure out with no apriori knowledge.
17:38:33 <itidus21> hmm it means if the symbol is 4, go to state 1, move left, and leave behind a 0
17:41:13 <fizzie> Is this the turtle shell thing again?
17:41:27 <itidus21> fizzie: lol.. yes.. i didn't stop..
17:41:39 <itidus21> but this is a more sophisticated turtle shell
17:42:53 <fizzie> It seems more complicated than would be necessary for just the left-right bounce. Incidentally, does that formulation permit a don't-move case? All I see is just PxRI or PxLE.
17:47:20 <itidus21> i did do a picture of it earlier though
17:47:31 <itidus21> but would that spoil all the fun of reading it in NTCM
17:48:42 <itidus21> http://oi47.tinypic.com/35n31ip.jpg
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17:56:18 <fizzie> Hey, I vaguely recall JFLAP.
17:56:36 <fizzie> Maybe from a course or something.
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17:57:07 <itidus21> the way it works is that when the head hits a 1, then the turtle shell becomes more powerful
17:58:39 <itidus21> in addition when it hits a 3 that 3 becomes a 2, and next time it becomes a 1
17:59:19 <itidus21> ahh.. theres all kinds of zaniness that it does
18:00:30 <fizzie> Are you giving it an initial tape to play with? I mean, I might misremember the syntax, but the "square ; 4" bits make it look like it'd just put 4s at the edges.
18:01:21 <itidus21> yeah.. the sample input on the tape i used with NTCM is 40000001012122301040001001
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18:01:33 <itidus21> in the NTCM version 5 is a blank
18:01:56 <itidus21> but when testing it with JFLAP i just put random things in similar to that
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18:34:47 <zzo38> If we have a computer with 3D display, one thing that can be displayed would be 3D horoscopes.
18:35:56 <zzo38> (Some astrologers say all horoscopes that include objects other than the Sun are 3D, but they don't know what 3D means, that is why they are astrologers.)
18:53:08 <Gregor> `addquote <zzo38> (Some astrologers say all horoscopes that include objects other than the Sun are 3D, but they don't know what 3D means, that is why they are astrologers.)
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18:53:12 <HackEgo> 845) <zzo38> (Some astrologers say all horoscopes that include objects other than the Sun are 3D, but they don't know what 3D means, that is why they are astrologers.)
18:54:10 <itidus21> i am temporarily happy.. i'm in that pattern where i keep working on a thing, unable to let it rest on it's laurels
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18:55:00 <itidus21> it is probably not very readable now, but this is one hell of a kick ass turing machine in NTCM:
18:55:07 <itidus21> [4[ :P_RI:4;_:P_RI:4;*:P*RI:4;o:PoRI:4;O:PORI:4;|:P|RI:4;S:P_:0]|0[ :P|LE:1;_:P_RI:0;*:P_RI:2;o:P*LE:1;O:PoLE:1;|:P|LE:1;S:P_:0]|1[ :P|RI:0;_:P_LE:1;*:P_LE:3;o:P*RI:0;O:PoRI:0;|:P|RI:0;S:P_:1]|2[ :P|LE:3;_:P_RI:2;*:P_RI:2;o:P*LE:3;O:PoLE:3;|:P_LE:1;S:P_:2]|3[ :P|RI:2;_:P_LE:3;*:P_LE:3;o:P*RI:2;O:PoRI:2;|:P_RI:0;S:P_:3]][0= ;ims=4;d13;vh;etFecF;t1]
19:01:09 <zzo38> Gregor: Do you like this quotation?
19:01:57 <elliott> No, he hates it. That is why he added it.
19:03:03 <zzo38> Do you agree? Do you have any experience in these matters?
19:19:49 <fizzie> Our "CS theory: basics" course had some turing machine writing exercises; I remember liking those.
19:21:22 <fizzie> They were kind on the trivial side.
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19:21:49 <fizzie> "Design a two-tape TM that recognizes the language {wcw | w \in {a,b}*}" -- an actual example.
19:22:05 <fizzie> That's, like, "write the word, check the word".
19:23:23 <fizzie> I might've done a single-tape version that just checked letter-by-letter symmetrically around the c, not sure, but that's not terribly interesting either.
19:23:41 <lambdabot> monqy: You have 8 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
19:23:55 <fizzie> Oh, there's also a "design a three-tape TM that adds two binary numbers" question.
19:24:37 <itidus21> when will this thing let go of me
19:24:52 <itidus21> i don't want to edit the TM any more
19:25:42 <fizzie> Oh, there is in fact a third question that's "Design a non-deterministic (single-tape) TM that recognizes {wcw | w \in {a,b}*}. How about a deterministic one?" That's why I had that one-tape version.
19:26:51 <itidus21> i don't even know how to recognize things with a TM
19:27:26 <fizzie> That's just code for "make one that ends up in a particular state when X".
19:28:16 <fizzie> Input typically being the initial contents of the tape.
19:28:42 <itidus21> my TMs are about having fun playing with the tape
19:29:01 <itidus21> they achieve little of actual value
19:29:17 <fizzie> "Recognizes language X" meaning "ends up in state Q whenever the initial content of the tape is a word in language X, and doesn't otherwise".
19:29:43 <fizzie> I wouldn't necessarily say these have any actual value either, they're all quite boring.
19:30:03 <fizzie> I mean, there's even the {a^n b a^n | n >= 0} that you don't even need a TM for.
19:30:07 <itidus21> im gonna now post the umpteenth update of my turtle shell thing
19:30:26 <itidus21> [6[ :P_LE:6;_:P_LE:6;*:P*LE:6;o:PoLE:6;O:POLE:6;|:P|LE:6;S:P_:6;>:P>LE:1;<:P<LE:6]|5[ :P_RI:5;_:P_RI:5;*:P*RI:5;o:PoRI:5;O:PORI:5;|:P|RI:5;S:P_:5;>:P>RI:5;<:P<RI:0]|4[ :P_RI:4;_:P_RI:4;*:P*RI:4;o:PoRI:4;O:PORI:4;|:P|RI:4;S:P_:0;>:P>RI:4;<:P<RI:4]|0[ :P|LE:1;_:P_RI:0;*:P_RI:2;o:P*LE:1;O:PoLE:1;|:P|LE:1;S:P_:0;>:P>RI:0;<:P<RI:0]|1[ :P|RI:0;_:P_LE:1;*:P_LE:3;o:P*RI:0;O:PoRI:0;|:P|RI:0;S:P_:1;>:P>LE:1;<:P
19:30:26 <itidus21> <LE:1]|2[ :P|LE:3;_:P_RI:2;*:P_RI:2;o:P*LE:3;O:PoLE:3;|:P_LE:1;S:P_:2;>:P>:5;<:P<:6]|3[ :P|RI:2;_:P_LE:3;*:P_LE:3;o:P*RI:2;O:PoRI:2;|:P_RI:0;S:P_:3;>:P>:5;<:P<:6]][0= ;ims=4;d13;vh;etFecF;t1;input.txt]
19:31:03 <fizzie> Okay, maybe the one that adds binary numbers could be said to have some sort of value, but still.
19:31:18 <itidus21> i don't expect it can be ledgible there.. but this is the greatest TM!
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19:35:12 <itidus21> actually of course it goes without saying it's not
19:35:39 <fizzie> Actually, I think I might've liked these "design a grammar" exercises more. It's almost like writing Thue, except you get course credits. (Indirectly, anyway.)
19:36:22 <fizzie> There's stuff like "design an unrestricted grammar that produces {w \in {a,b,c}* | w has equal amounts of a's, b's and c's}".
19:36:33 <itidus21> this thing basically tries to be like super mario bros
19:36:45 <fizzie> Or {a^(2^n) | n >= 0}. Okay, so they're kinda boring tasks, but it's still funtimes.
19:37:07 <fizzie> I can't even immediately say why the a^(2^n) one works.
19:37:51 <fizzie> (It's probably overly complicated.)
19:38:30 <itidus21> if you imagine each square on the tape is a graphics tile, and that the head is a turtle shell, that is the best way to understand my TM
19:39:31 <itidus21> then again, there may be other valid ways of understanding it
19:39:54 <fizzie> "S -> >AP< | e; PA -> AAP; P< -> Q< | R; AQ -> QA; >Q -> >P; AR -> Ra; >R -> e" where e's epsilon. I guess it's just a "keep either doubling the amount of A's or alternatively make them all a's and remove the trash".
19:40:42 <fizzie> Actually scratch that "| e" from S, that's obviously bogus, what can I have been thinking?
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19:55:38 <zzo38> I want to make closed/automatic instances in Haskell or Ibtlfmm. In Haskell you might have: auto_instance :: ([Type] -> Q (Maybe [Dec])) -> Q [Dec]; You can use this in a class declaration to make it closed and automatic.
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19:57:29 <Taneb> elliott, if you want to pretend to be good at sport, Germany is winning
19:58:10 <Taneb> Also, does anyone feel like explaining Volume of Revolution to me?
19:58:27 <fizzie> You just rotate a thing.
19:59:45 <fizzie> It's like a surface of revolution, except you rotate some sort of a blorp and take the insides, instead of rotating a curve and taking just the shell.
20:00:08 <Taneb> Assume my teachers are awful and are teaching me volume of revolution before surface
20:00:54 <fizzie> Well, you know, you take a filled disc and rotate it around a suitable axis outside it, and you get a solid (volume) of revolution that makes a donut.
20:01:09 <Taneb> elliott, it's a thing that normal people sometimes talk about
20:01:31 <Taneb> It's found on the back page of some newspapers
20:01:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, OK so when you rotate a curve about the x-axis you get a circularly symmetric volume.
20:02:09 <Taneb> I remember this from my days of playing with Google SketchUp
20:02:20 <Phantom_Hoover> The area of a cross section of this volume at distance x along the axis is pi*y^2.
20:02:42 <fizzie> If you just rotate a curve, you probably just get a surface.
20:03:07 <fizzie> You can speak of the volume inside it, of course.
20:03:43 <Phantom_Hoover> To find the volume, you integrate the cross sectional area along the x axis; i.e., integral from a to b pi*y^2 dx.
20:03:53 <Taneb> elliott, Greece has scored and they're tying
20:04:08 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, ooh
20:04:42 <fizzie> Oh, so you wanted to know the volume of a solid of revolution, not just know general things about a "volume of revolution", which I think I've seen used as a synonym for a solid of revolution before.
20:05:40 <Taneb> fizzie, I've just got the slides from a lecture I missed due to my exam, and I'm trying to figure it out
20:06:42 <Taneb> elliott, Germany's winning again
20:07:29 <fizzie> Right, well, you can integrate that stuff. If what you want is not "rotate the surface between this curve and the X axis" but instead something like "surface between these two curves" (like if you wanted a hole inside the thing), you might want to use the areas of disc-with-a-hole regions.
20:09:40 <Taneb> Thanks fizzie and Phantom_Hoover
20:09:51 <Taneb> I've understood enough to decipher this
20:12:55 <fizzie> POV-Ray has surface of revolution as one of its object types. (And I'm pretty sure regular 3D modelers like Blender have a tool that'll take a segmented line of N points, rotate it with K steps, and make a N*K point mesh, but POV-Ray actually does intersection tests with the real surface, if I've understood correctly.)
20:13:29 <fizzie> I mean, the curve is sampled, but the rotated surface part if it is right.
20:15:05 <fizzie> (And the points of the curve can be connected by different kind of splines.)
20:16:14 <fizzie> (Okay, there are details and a different-but-related 'lathe' object, but that's all probably outside the scope of this message.)
20:19:27 <Taneb> elliott, it's 4-1 to Germany
20:20:17 <fizzie> Was this still that football thing?
20:20:48 <Taneb> It's in the knock-out stage now
20:21:48 <fizzie> POV-Ray trivia: it has a "sphere sweep" object type that I think is pretty much meant for making tentacles. (Okay, I guess it could make some sort of tubes too.)
20:22:15 <fizzie> (It's the shape of an object sweeped by a sphere that moves from place to place and varies its radius.)
20:22:19 <Taneb> POV-Ray is on my list of things to learn
20:22:49 <fizzie> It's kind of a silly thing. It's like you write this text stuff in a rude imitation of a programming language, and out comes a picture.
20:23:03 <fizzie> I guess you can also use it as a back-end renderer, but that sounds terribly pointless.
20:23:04 <Taneb> I've tried to use it before
20:23:19 <Taneb> I got a pink sphere on a yellow background
20:23:41 <Taneb> I also have the dubious honour of having my code removed from Uncyclopedia
20:23:52 <fizzie> See, here's a sphere-sweep tutorial, and it's all about tentacles: http://cronodon.com/PovRay/Tentacles.html
20:24:18 <Taneb> http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/index.php?title=Haskell&action=historysubmit&diff=5520895&oldid=5520863
20:24:55 <fizzie> "Revert Anon; let us charitably assume he doesn't realize this is a humor site"
20:25:56 <Taneb> (for the record, it was not me who added it to the site, nor was it me who removed it)
20:26:25 <fizzie> It's a bit of a shame, since I think it looks nice.
20:26:59 <Taneb> Just don't try to run it with numbers more than 9
20:27:09 <Taneb> It works /in theory'
20:27:48 <elliott> http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Haskell
20:28:15 <Taneb> It's trying to store 10! in strict unary encoded by functions
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20:31:26 <zzo38> It looks like something similar to a SK combinator program
20:31:36 <Taneb> Yeah, it essentially si
20:33:16 <Taneb> S = (<*>), K = pure, unsafeCoerce = I
20:34:46 <zzo38> Taneb: Yes I noticed that
20:35:31 <Taneb> Probably the most core-dumps I've ever caused in one day, writing that
20:36:48 <zzo38> What is a good way in a C program to make a white noise?
20:38:15 <atrapado> zzo38, cat /dev/urandom > /dev/dsp ???
20:38:44 <zzo38> atrapado: No, I mean in C
20:39:09 <atrapado> well, uniform or gaussian white noise... just some random samples
20:40:11 <zzo38> But how can I make a random real numbers in a C code in both Windows and UNIX?
20:41:09 <fizzie> It sounds like you will have to decide whether you want to use rand() or to embed your own PRNG.
20:41:12 <atrapado> well, do you need quite random of just pseudorandom
20:42:25 <fizzie> You can make uniformly distributed double-precision floats from rand() e.g. for the [-0.5, 0.5] interval by dividing the output by (double)RAND_MAX and subtracting 0.5.
20:42:28 <atrapado> 2.0 * ((double) rand() / (double)RANDMAX - 0.5) ???
20:43:07 <fizzie> There's an underscore in the constant. And you only need the latter cast, the rules for finding a common type for / will make it double.
20:43:36 <fizzie> Well, you only need one cast, to be more exact. It could be the first one, too.
20:45:00 <zzo38> Pseudorandom is good enough, and it doesn't matter if different implementations differ although it might be best to have one built-in so that the quality does not degrade too much with different implementation. I want to make it for audio, it will then be converted to integers after calculation finish
20:45:55 <atrapado> for audio I think rand() is enough
20:46:14 <atrapado> but maybe you want to add a seed
20:46:28 <fizzie> I'm reasonably sure even a regular linear-congruential PRNG that you can do in one line will be good enough for audio purposes, if you want to get the exact same results everywhere.
20:46:29 <atrapado> for avoiding always the same sequence
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20:54:16 <fizzie> I'm slightly curious what it's for, though.
20:54:44 <zzo38> It is a program to make .IT files. You can load external samples, although I also put a simple synthesizer with a few wave forms (including random); other things such as vibrato, tremolo, ADSR, filter, etc, can be provided by .IT format themself (and this program does include commands to enter those commands into the .IT)
20:55:18 <zzo38> It is called ITMCK and is somewhat based on PPMCK (which is used to make .NSF)
20:56:00 <zzo38> That is what it is for. Do you like this?
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20:56:16 <itidus21> to see my turing machine in action visit this TM simulator http://morphett.info/turing/turing.html and the pastebin has the necessary code and explanation http://pastebin.com/XJf4cPyd
20:56:43 <fizzie> I should have guesseded, I guess.
20:57:27 <zzo38> fizzie: How many programs have you used to write music? Have you written the music on paper?
20:58:50 <fizzie> zzo38: I don't write music, so I don't really have an opinion. My IT file format experiences are from a different angle.
20:59:31 <quintopia> i wrote a lot of music in mpt, but i never studied the file format
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21:01:05 <zzo38> quintopia: Still it would help, if you have written the music perhaps you would have some opinion about the synthesizers and other features of the music
21:01:22 <zzo38> Including if there are some things you think MPT lacks, or some features you don't use
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21:07:13 <itidus21> fwiw this is a more interesting input "....888.s..c..>.|..8.8.8.8.8.8.8.8.8.8....|...<...888.c.c...c."
21:12:07 <zzo38> When making a computer program which displays the spherical coordinates of the object in space, for the longitudinal angles there can be hours (right ascension and hour angle), astrological signs (ecliptic longitude), and degrees (both). For latitudinal angles degrees are used, but I think another option should be to allow grads for latitudinal angles.
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21:46:53 <zzo38> How does a white noise change if raised to an exponent?
21:55:58 <fizzie> It shouldn't. As long as the samples are all uncorrelated and zero-mean and finite-variance, the power spectrum will be flat.
21:56:31 <fizzie> Frequency-wise, that is. The amplitude distribution is clearly different.
21:56:38 <fizzie> But it's still a white noise.
21:57:18 <fizzie> Speaking of which, it *might* (though it's perhaps best to ask a music-maker's opinion) be a good idea to provide a pink noise source also, since that's kind of a more natural noise. (White has relatively much stuff at high frequencies.) Even given that it's probably possible to get something pinkish with the IT filters.
21:59:05 <zzo38> I have used "L" for square/pulse wave, "N" for saw wave, "V" for triangle wave, letter omitted for sine wave, what letter for white and pink noise? Also how to generate pink noise?
21:59:49 <fizzie> Well, W and P come to mind. Though the white noise could also be R for random.
22:00:17 <zzo38> I was at first using R for white noise, so I could keep it that way.
22:00:31 <zzo38> So now I can put P for pink noise too
22:01:02 <zzo38> (Although do you know why I have chosen L, N, and V? Maybe it is clear to you, maybe not.)
22:01:25 <fizzie> Oh, I guess it's the letter shapes.
22:01:47 <fizzie> The noises don't probably have so good letters.
22:02:06 <zzo38> What is why we select letters based on different reasons for the noise.
22:02:51 <fizzie> Anyhoo. There's two well-known ways to do pink noise; one's to generate white noise and apply a filter that approximates a 1/f frequency response (a third-order one could be close enough) while the second uses K (e.g. K=6) white noise sources, and updates each at different rate. (Basically getting a staircase-like approximation.)
22:04:17 <fizzie> I have this bookmark on it: http://www.firstpr.com.au/dsp/pink-noise/
22:08:04 <fizzie> Some of the discussion is a bit overly DSP-oriented. Like the improvement to the several-white-noise-sources that makes the work/sample constant, which isn't really an issue except in a DSP implementation.
22:09:56 <Sgeo> *sigh* I feel more like a code monkey than a developer when I write LSL
22:10:02 <Sgeo> How do I fix myself?
22:10:41 <Sgeo> I like to blame the lagginess of the built-in LSL editor >.>
22:10:47 <fizzie> Code monkeys are also developers too.
22:13:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, use objectopattern synergies or whatever it is that developers stereotypically use
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22:18:43 <fizzie> I'd probably go with the "economy" filter mentioned there, the http://www.musicdsp.org/files/pink.txt
22:21:34 <zzo38> I have already written something and it does multiple white noise updating at different rates (using "R(divider),(amplitude),(exponent)" and then if you have more than one, they are added together)
22:23:49 <fizzie> Well, that's very possible too.
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22:51:44 <zzo38> One thing I also haven't thought of yet, is how the table of the effect rows (which will be converted to patterns) should be internally represented. I currently have: typedef struct chan_row { byte note; byte instrument; byte effectid; byte effectpar; byte volumeset; byte continue_flag; /* 0x01=effect 0x02=volume 0x04=zero next effect */ } chan_row;
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01:00:28 <kmc> i don't know what twenty sided is
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01:26:35 <kmc> is there a well-known brainfuck derivative which uses goto instead of "structured" control?
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01:36:37 <HackEgo> luke2: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
01:36:52 <luke2> hey quin..thank you
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02:02:38 <calamari> I'm assuming everyone already saw google.com but just in case...
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02:47:23 <zzo38> kmc: I think "Bub" uses goto
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03:00:08 -!- oerjan has set topic: Happy Alan Turing's 100th Birthday | Food is just pals you eat. Here's a spork for ya. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | This is what the bfjoust hill will look like under the new scoring system: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=XEWnVMg8.
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03:00:27 -!- oerjan has set topic: Happy Alan Turing's 100th Birthday! | Food is just pals you eat. Here's a spork for ya. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | This is what the bfjoust hill will look like under the new scoring system: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=XEWnVMg8.
03:02:28 <zzo38> The ITMCK sends the .IT to a file rather than stdout because it may need to seek the file that it is writing. It could probably be done without seeking but that would be a bit more complicated to program.
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03:05:25 <zzo38> If I could make it do without seeking, then I will change it to send the output to stdout instead.
03:06:54 <zzo38> Status messages (which include warning messages and error messages) will always go to stderr, so it won't interfere, except if you use "itmck -v" in which case it sends the version string to stdout and stops, and doesn't send anything to stderr.
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03:33:00 <Vorpal> wow the google logo thing atm.
03:33:35 * oerjan wonders if google's TM is the same as he used in Underload
03:34:44 <oerjan> Vorpal: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload#Binary_counting_Turing_machine
03:35:16 <Vorpal> oerjan, try the thing out, it looks like you have to press those buttons to make it run the "right" program?
03:35:28 <oerjan> oh there is more than one?
03:35:30 <Vorpal> to configure the rules for the head that is
03:35:47 <oerjan> it starts out as a binary counter
03:35:59 <Vorpal> oerjan, well if the tapes ends up matching the string above it goes on to colouring the next letter in the logo it seems?
03:38:05 <Vorpal> and once you completed the whole "Google" it starts over but runs automatically
03:38:15 <oerjan> you are talking about what happens when you press the green button, i assume
03:38:42 <Vorpal> and finally it automatically googles "Allan Turing"
03:38:52 <oerjan> ...as i said, it starts out doing a binary counter even if you don't press anything
03:39:01 <Vorpal> oh right, didn't notice that
03:41:01 * oerjan manages to get one letter colored but still has no clue what the actual system for settings is
03:41:26 <Vorpal> you just press the button thingy to make it run the right program?
03:41:30 <Vorpal> I found it quite simple
03:41:49 <oerjan> well i managed to get the second
03:42:08 <Vorpal> it seems to be a simple finite state machine with some symbols invented for various tests and writes to the tape and what not
03:42:09 <oerjan> i just don't understand how it represents the actual program
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03:42:31 <Vorpal> uh? It seems trivial to turn it into a finite state machine.
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03:43:08 <Vorpal> oerjan, so basically the thing below the tape is the control mechanism
03:43:14 <oerjan> oh well it seems like there isn't that much choice in what to press
03:43:15 <Vorpal> or what is it that you are not clear on?
03:43:28 <Vorpal> it gets a bit more choice towards the end
03:43:38 <Vorpal> I guess they thought people were stupid (accurate!)
03:44:44 <oerjan> i suppose it has to be intuitive, given that i seem to make the right choice anyhow :P
03:51:01 <Vorpal> oerjan, still not a bad "event logo" I think
03:51:32 <oerjan> indeed. i think i finally understood that it's starting at the left end...
03:52:09 <Vorpal> it was a "complete the program puzzle"
03:53:07 <oerjan> yes, but i somehow thought the brightly colored button was where it started...
03:55:27 <oerjan> i still don't know why that second last one worked...
03:55:39 <oerjan> ("worked" after i tried all options, that is)
03:56:08 <Vorpal> also I don't remember which one it was. I just traced through the program logically until I found a solution
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03:59:14 <oerjan> ah finally i think i got the system at the last one (needed only one try despite four buttons)
04:01:44 <Vorpal> oerjan, yeah it was easy
04:02:12 <Vorpal> these are trivial finite state machines to trace in your head.
04:02:31 <oerjan> I BET YOU THINK MENSA TESTS AREN'T HIDEOUSLY AMBIGUOUS EITHER
04:03:10 <Vorpal> I just found these finite state machines trivial after the first one (where I had to figure out what the hell was going on in general)
04:03:28 <oerjan> i guess my problem was i didn't _have_ to find out until the last one :P
04:04:22 <Vorpal> oerjan, you could have tried all combos for the last one
04:05:07 <Vorpal> forgot how many states each had
04:05:15 <Vorpal> so yeah 2*2*3*3 or something?
04:05:52 <Vorpal> which if I remember the number of conditionals accurately thus yields 36 combinations
04:06:00 * oerjan tried restarting and is wondering if this _is_ the same puzzle as last time
04:06:16 <Vorpal> oh maybe they are random
04:06:31 <Vorpal> yeah this looks the same to me
04:10:48 <Vorpal> hm I'm going to bed I think.
04:12:57 * oerjan is pretty sure he's on a different set of puzzles now. maybe using the back button after the "Alan Turing" search works differently.
04:13:20 <oerjan> i mean, this one has 6 buttons.
04:16:01 <oerjan> this one has _no_ options and looks like it may be inspired by the konami code
04:16:41 <kmc> how come i get the interactive doodle but my friend gets just a simple logo
04:17:00 <oerjan> no javascript or something?
04:17:24 <oerjan> these things aren't always rolled out consistently everywhere
04:17:34 <kmc> well we're on the same internet connection now
04:17:37 <kmc> but even so, yeah
04:17:45 <oerjan> different language settings?
04:17:56 <kmc> did you work out what the bit sequences mean?
04:18:17 <oerjan> wait, there was a puzzle to that too?
04:18:24 <oerjan> i didn't pay attention.
04:27:20 * Sgeo looks at Io for some reason
04:40:28 <Sgeo> I should learn to try writing code for languages that interest me
04:40:33 <Sgeo> Rather than just... doing nothing
04:50:37 <kmc> better yet, write programs that interest you
04:51:14 <kmc> do something cool and stop obsessing over what tools you used to do it
04:56:32 <zzo38> What program do you want to write?
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05:19:39 <itidus21> Sgeo: i chose early on in life that my life would be about computer game software
05:22:25 <zzo38> What computer game?
05:33:20 <zzo38> Is your opinion that mathematics is the true reality?
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05:40:24 <itidus21> well, i like to begin by categorizing events into good and bad, to demonstrate that inspite of my imagination bad things of all sorts happen... but also then stepping back and considering myself then as something which categorizes, which is itself a category
05:40:36 <itidus21> its worth noting i don't know what category means in mathematical sense
05:41:40 <itidus21> but i also know that my body will die, perhaps while doing one of these arbitrary categorizations
05:47:29 <itidus21> i find that once you remove a daily routine of going into public each day, it does help you realize things.. it's a bit like the movie terminal
05:48:09 <itidus21> in reality theres no invisible hand to save us if we get trapped by some flaw in societys logic
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06:09:35 <shachaf> Are there any languages other than Haskell that unify (or try to, at least) exceptions and error return values?
06:17:28 <zzo38> Do you have any suggestions on what would be simple and efficient way to store the effect frames for each channel internally before converting them to patterns?
06:20:03 <zzo38> I could just store each effect frame individually together with length if applicable, but that might be too long?
06:22:25 <itidus21> zzo38: it may be best to ask me about reality when i'm perhaps 10 years older, less depressed and more mentally stable. as it is i tend to freak out about once a day and prone to paranoia
06:27:30 <kmc> shachaf: what does that mean?
06:28:44 <shachaf> kmc: Maybe and Either are concrete return values that can be checked normally, but can also be treated like exceptions.
06:29:38 <itidus21> if reality was safe, we wouldn't have so many safety devices and warning labels on everything. wander too far off the beaten track and theres no more of those
06:29:47 <shachaf> > do { x <- Right 1; y <- Left "oops"; return (x + y) } -- And all that.
06:30:07 <shachaf> Where you have exceptions they're type-checked by their nature.
06:31:57 <shachaf> In a lot of languages people argue about exceptions being unpredictable and return values being inconvenient and so on.
06:32:06 <zzo38> Yes you do have the Maybe and Either monads (and Maybe is like Either () anyways). You get their Kleisli category of partial functions with error messages from that monad.
06:32:08 <shachaf> I'm not sure whether Haskell gives you the best or the worst of both worlds. :-)
06:32:17 <shachaf> But at least it's something.
06:32:40 <zzo38> What I think is that, it works well in the way you program it to work in the way you want it to work if it can be done with Haskell.
06:34:20 <zzo38> I also think there should be Alternative and MonadPlus instance for Either; it would be the same as what my Alternative and MonadPlus instances would be for Free monad and my Alternative instance for Const, if you use (Free (Const x)) like (Either x)
06:34:34 <zzo38> And then it also works with (Free Finalize) for Maybe
06:37:34 <zzo38> instance Plus f => Plus (Free f) where { zero = Free zero; plus (Pure x) _ = Pure x; plus _ (Pure x) = Pure x; plus (Free x) (Free y) = Free (plus x y); };
06:38:16 <itidus21> "<zzo38> Is your opinion that mathematics is the true reality?" certainly mathematical analysis is available for every situation. it is in a sense inescapable much like the space-time continuum.
06:39:33 <itidus21> but still, the ultimate act of categorization is "what am i?" and "what do i need to be?" and if i am already what i need to be then the question is "why am i?"
06:42:02 <itidus21> and if it is correct for me to ask why am i, is it correct for everyone to ask it? so then "why am i and why is everybody?"
06:43:03 <itidus21> in asking these things though, the asker already knows that theres no answer to the question..
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07:03:16 <itidus21> reality can extend to culture too.. like we have some sense of a culture, akin to our primitive senses.. the whole concept of a "theme"
07:04:08 <itidus21> like a well-kept grandmothers house with lots of flowers on every piece of furnishing in site, and lots of sandwiches and tea and cookies being offered
07:05:50 <itidus21> so apparently in psychology they call such a thing a schema
07:09:08 <itidus21> so .. to be fair i was asked the question. maybe a rant was not anticipated. i am done with it. i didn't mean to offend anyone.
07:19:50 <zzo38> Have you ever invented the word "Yeshuaism"?
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07:43:30 <itidus21> i think it's fascinating that everyone has unique fingerprints.. what does it mean zzo38?
07:44:55 <itidus21> to the extent that we are our bodies, then we are also our fingerprints
07:46:17 <zzo38> It only means fingerprints are a kind of unique idenfication, that's all
07:49:38 <itidus21> one positive thing about them is they are all equal
07:50:04 <itidus21> it's a symbol of equality in diversity
07:51:17 <pikhq_> itidus21: That can be solved.
07:51:40 <pikhq_> With careful application of surgical techniques, one can have fingerprints removed.
07:51:55 <itidus21> like theres usually someone with the same first and surname as us.. someone with the same birthday as us. someone born in the same place as us. same blood type as us.. (although combined these elements do tend to make a unique id)
07:52:23 <pikhq_> I'm probably the only living "Josiah Worcester".
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07:52:48 <pikhq_> Though I was able to find a historical "Josiah Worcester".
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07:52:59 <pikhq_> Probably me with a TARDIS.
07:53:35 <itidus21> zzo38: ok uh.. suppose that uh.. there was a bfjoust-like thing except based on an interpretation of fingerprints
07:53:54 <itidus21> i think that could be interesting
07:54:25 <itidus21> or for those people who don't have fingerprints.. well.. i don't know how to answer that
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07:56:22 <zzo38> itidus21: I have written in the esolang list of ideas, one idea interpret the lines on your hand as a computer program; this can be done with fingerprints too.
07:56:43 <itidus21> its hard to have a fucking original idea these days eh
07:57:41 <pikhq_> Yup, afraid the originalium ore was all mined up.
08:04:28 <zzo38> Actually I think it is the Bob Profit Principle.
08:06:05 <itidus21> zzo38: =)) you're the only result i get in google for "bob proffitt principle"
08:06:26 <itidus21> and.. more disturbingly you were addressing me then also
08:06:27 <zzo38> That is because it isn't on Google.
08:06:46 <itidus21> 11.07.30 08:52:07 <zzo38> itidus20: I have heard that being called the "Bob Proffitt Principle"
08:06:58 <itidus21> is this itself the principle in action?
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08:07:45 <itidus21> maybe it means i repeat myself
08:08:11 <zzo38> It means that since you probably are not the smartest person in the world (and maybe even if you are), if you have some idea, it is likely that other people have very similar ideas too.
08:08:30 <itidus21> <itidus20> anyway, i am great at independant discovery <itidus20> but I can't seem to actually think of anything which hasn't been thought of before
08:09:17 <itidus21> <Taneb> Most of my ideas are stupid <Taneb> And probably been done before
08:09:19 <zzo38> But yes many people can discover/invent something independently, it seems espacially to be the case in mathematics. Including my ideas about mathematics, too.
08:10:12 <zzo38> Do you like mathematics?
08:10:43 <itidus21> i think that i would like mathematics if only i saw it correctly
08:11:34 <itidus21> i don't know what motivates mathematicians if infact noone sees mathematics correctly
08:11:54 <kmc> i may not be the smartest person in the world but i can pick a 128-bit number that nobody else has ever picked before!
08:12:21 <monqy> what does it mean to see mathematics correctly
08:12:27 <monqy> what does it mean to see mathematics incorrectly
08:12:38 <monqy> "food for itidus21thought"
08:12:40 <kmc> seriously, human endeavor is so broad that you hardly need to be a world-class genius to be original in *some* field
08:13:27 <itidus21> monqy: well i think it helps to see numbers as abstractions of measurement (i don't know if this is so) and arithmetic as a means of manipulating those measurements
08:13:32 <zzo38> kmc: Well, yes; I did not mean all ideas are very similar to others, I just mean that many will be.
08:14:47 <itidus21> but, at the same time, i think numbers can be used to say like, red = 1, blue = 2, orange = 3, white = 4, violet = 5, green = 6
08:14:48 <zzo38> itidus21: Not all mathematics is numbers and measurement!
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08:19:53 <itidus21> people are so annoying that children leave their homes even at the cost of having to pay rent
08:21:37 <itidus21> 1000s of days to be spent doing some tedious labour at a factory to pay the rent all to escape the annoyances of ones family
08:22:32 <kmc> red = 1, green = 2, yellow = 3, blue = 4, magenta = 5, cyan = 6, white = 7
08:23:22 <monqy> itidus21: does this mean being annoying "helps the economy" ? ? ? ? ?
08:23:28 <monqy> "food for itidus21thought"
08:27:18 <itidus21> monqy: well, about seeing it correctly, a question is if i am counting am i using mathematics? :D
08:28:00 <itidus21> or is mathematics in this regard an analysis of counting :-?
08:28:10 <monqy> food for itidus21thought.
08:28:55 <itidus21> oh monqy, i have to show you my turing machine some time
08:30:13 <itidus21> to see my turing machine in action visit this TM simulator http://morphett.info/turing/turing.html and the pastebin has the necessary code and explanation http://pastebin.com/XJf4cPyd
08:30:22 <itidus21> fwiw this is a more interesting input "....888.s..c..>.|..8.8.8.8.8.8.8.8.8.8....|...<...888.c.c...c."
08:34:58 <monqy> I'll take your word !
08:37:08 <itidus21> the insight i gained is that while brainfuck can peform the same computations as a turing machine, brainfuck's per-instruction manipulation of the tape itself cannot match a turing machine step for step
08:42:39 <itidus21> brainfuck seems to replace write_symbol with increment_symbol/decrement_symbol. and read_symbol replaced with read_isblank.
08:45:40 <itidus21> as for comparing the state changing mechanism to the [ ] system, well thats not so trivial for me
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09:10:41 <zzo38> Do you like to have closed classes and automatic classes in Haskell (or Ibtlfmm)? Automatic classes are a generalization of closed classes. In Haskell, it might be done by a TH function usable in a class declaration and having the type: ([Type] -> Q (Maybe [Dec])) -> Q [Dec]
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09:22:49 <oerjan> <itidus21> the insight i gained is that while brainfuck can peform the same computations as a turing machine, brainfuck's per-instruction manipulation of the tape itself cannot match a turing machine step for step
09:24:24 <oerjan> um i was going to say that's why my minimal TM brainfuck proof uses 3 cells instead of just 2, but that's more a comparison with minsky machines.
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09:40:28 <fizzie> itidus21: You can convert from (finite-cell) brainfuck to TM easily by making the bf program pointer value equal the TM state number. Something like http://sprunge.us/ZgOY (untested).
09:40:52 <fizzie> (It's in the NTCM syntax.)
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11:07:25 <monqy> i can't just make up interesting facts on command !
11:07:41 <monqy> (thats monqy fact #1)
11:08:04 <monqy> monqy fact #2 is that that's monqy fact #1, btw
11:08:27 <shachaf> Are there any other monqy facts?
11:08:36 <monqy> for instance: monqy fact #4
11:09:42 <monqy> "there are 4 monqy facts"
11:10:13 <monqy> don't asl about monqy fact #5
11:10:24 <monqy> it's a bad idea to ask about things that don't exist
11:10:38 <shachaf> monqy: What's monqy fact #6?
11:11:06 <monqy> there are only four monqy facts !!!
11:11:26 <shachaf> Are you going to explode now?
11:11:41 <monqy> if you want more facts you can make up a "shachaf facts" or something
11:11:57 <shachaf> monqy: tell me a "shachaffacts"
11:12:09 <monqy> only you, shachaf, can "shachaf facts"
11:12:16 <monqy> similarly, if you want explosions, you can explode upon exhaustion of "shachaf facts"
11:12:27 <monqy> explode to your heart's desire
11:12:31 <shachaf> monqy fact #7: there are more than 20 monqy facts
11:12:31 <monqy> if you don't desire it
11:12:47 <monqy> monqy lies #1 is that
11:13:15 <monqy> it's monqy lies #1 but misnumbered
11:13:36 <shachaf> what:'(s monqy lies #2 :'(
11:13:52 <monqy> monqy lies #2 is "the number of monqy lies is greater than two"
11:14:21 <shachaf> monqy: what:'(s monqy lies #4
11:14:29 <monqy> it doesn't exist!!!!
11:15:48 <itidus21> #1 monqy can't just make up interesting facts on command!
11:15:56 <itidus21> #2 the text "monqy can't just make up interesting facts on command!" is fact #1
11:16:01 <itidus21> #3 fact the text "the text "monqy can't just make up interesting facts on command!" is fact #1" is fact #2
11:16:03 <fizzie> :) is the scariest smiley.
11:16:36 <shachaf> itidus21: #2 is that monqy fact #1 is that monqy can't just make up interesting facts on command
11:19:48 <itidus21> shachaf: i'm starting to break through the math notations.
11:20:25 <itidus21> my time in this room may be paying off in the long term
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12:25:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Google didn't use a proper TM control mechanism for the doodle :/
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12:27:05 <Phantom_Hoover> A TM as originally defined doesn't have an instruction list like the doodle does, it has a FSM with tape operations.
12:27:35 <Lumpio-> nortti is probably using something like lynx
12:28:12 <itidus21> don't worry nortti, you're only missing the chance to criticize something
12:28:13 <Lumpio-> Phantom_Hoover: That instruction list is a FSM
12:28:19 <Lumpio-> Perhaps to make it more accessible.
12:28:19 <nortti> but I usually use google wit my s_google shell script
12:29:02 <itidus21> nortti: to celebrate alan turing's 100th birthday, google put up a small TM-based quiz on their homepage
12:29:03 <Lumpio-> Considering that less than 5% of the people who see it understand what it is without googling it
12:29:06 <Lumpio-> I think it's niche enough :P
12:30:47 <itidus21> probably a great deal less than 5%
12:32:01 * itidus21 wonders how i ended up down this rabbit hole.
12:32:10 * itidus21 wonders how he ended up down this rabbit hole.
12:33:03 <Phantom_Hoover> This channel probably has one of the highest concentrations of people who know how a TM works, and I'm not sure how many here actually know how a TM works.
12:33:42 <Lumpio-> I got 5% by using the Steson-Harrison method so
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12:39:09 <nortti> ? it doesn't work in hv3. is the TM written in js?
12:39:56 <nortti> strange. google still gives me static version even if I use hv3 with js enabled
12:40:20 <itidus21> nortti: believe me sir i understand why you feel a need to see it
12:40:31 <itidus21> even though it is a pithy nothing
12:40:56 <Phantom_Hoover> nortti, you could try using a graphical browser, but I suspect you have some objection or other to that.
12:41:41 <nortti> Phantom_Hoover: hv3 is graphical browser with js support. even links2 is graphical
12:42:15 <itidus21> i downloaded 225mb worth of japanese game manuals (11 or them) for the neo geo game console, just to see them
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12:43:56 <itidus21> in other worse, i'm a conservative user of internet bandwidth, unlike anyone streaming video constantly
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12:47:55 <Phantom_Hoover> nortti, in that case, a mainstream browser, but you definitely will have some objection or other to that.
12:49:34 <fizzie> What an amazing reward for completing the doodle, though: a search for "Alan Turing".
12:49:51 <nortti> is bon echo mainstream enough?
12:51:29 <fizzie> Incidentally, I got a static version on the N900 browser too, even though it's a Gecko-based thing that certainly should be capable of running it.
12:52:17 <nortti> maybe it works by detecting user agent or something stupid
12:53:06 <Phantom_Hoover> OK I'm tired of this game, do you have any actual reason not to just point the latest Firefox or Chromium at it.
12:53:52 <nortti> yes. running out of RAM on browser startup and swap thrashing that slows it to unusable speed
12:54:45 <Phantom_Hoover> I was trying to remember what point you were trying to prove.
12:54:51 <itidus21> nortti: i understand your predicament
12:55:33 <itidus21> i spent real time searching though google for the japanese manual or the nintendo famicom game "super mario usa"
12:56:15 <itidus21> yes.. known in the west as "super mario bros. 2"
12:56:15 <fizzie> The user agent for the N900 browser is "Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux armv7l; en-GB; rv:1.9.2.3pre) Gecko/20100723 Firefox/3.5 Maemo Browser 1.7.4.8 RX-51 N900" which I would think should look mainstream enough.
12:56:40 <itidus21> they released it in japan as "super mario usa"
12:57:44 <itidus21> nortti: there is something i can do though to help!
12:58:11 <Lumpio-> Super Mario ★★★ U S A FUCK YEAH
12:59:13 <fizzie> http://users.ics.aalto.fi/htkallas/chromium-acid.png well that was a poor showing.
12:59:35 <fizzie> I mean, sure, it's an impressive 100/100, but it's not quite like the reference image.
12:59:43 <itidus21> nortti: click this pic http://oi50.tinypic.com/5cbw2x.jpg
13:00:15 <itidus21> thats roughly what it looks like..
13:00:30 <Lumpio-> nortti: I suggest you install Chromium, all websites runs mighty fine on it.
13:00:32 <itidus21> the only interacting is to toggle the yellow buttons between a few states
13:00:38 <itidus21> and then click the green button
13:00:47 <Lumpio-> And it should run smoothly on a modern system with at least 4GB of RAM and a recent processor
13:00:53 <itidus21> so now your curiosity might be relieved.. and you don't need to load it
13:01:30 <nortti> Lumpio-: yeah. the swap trashing even on midori was so horrible I am not installing that bloatware
13:01:44 <itidus21> nortti: are you able to view jpeg links?
13:01:52 <Lumpio-> nortti: Maybe you don't have enough RAM.
13:02:04 <Lumpio-> itidus21: The fact that you even have to ask that is sad.
13:02:10 <itidus21> i took a screenshot of the page in question.. its the most i can do :-D
13:02:25 <nortti> Lumpio-: oh really? I have 64MB of RAM
13:03:03 <Phantom_Hoover> nortti, I think you may not be able to call modern software 'bloatware' when your system has decade-old specs.
13:03:09 <Lumpio-> nortti: I'm sorry but that's below the minimum requirements of modern life.
13:03:22 <Lumpio-> itidus21: Remember that it's much bigger uncompressed
13:04:16 <itidus21> my graphics card(which my brother gave to me as a kind birthday present this year) has 1gb of ram
13:04:30 <itidus21> i can't help but be amused by 64mb ram
13:05:32 <nortti> itidus21: don't have 64 millibits of RAM
13:05:32 <Lumpio-> I think it's OK to play with retro stuff
13:05:42 <Lumpio-> But you can't honestly expect everybody else to play along
13:05:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh yeah, playing with it is great fun. Using it as your primary system?
13:06:05 <nortti> retro? this is only 12 years old for gods sake
13:06:28 <Phantom_Hoover> My neighbour did use his Acorn Archimedes up til a few years ago, but he really only used it for word processing.
13:06:53 <Phantom_Hoover> nortti, hey fun fact, computer hardware has a short life-cycle!
13:07:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Did you know that there's this thing called 'Moore's Law'?
13:07:46 <nortti> but still. I can call my 18 year old server retro but this T20 isn't
13:08:22 <nortti> what is the definition of retro then?
13:08:53 <fizzie> 1. retro -- (a fashion reminiscent of the past)
13:08:59 <lambdabot> *** "retro" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
13:08:59 <lambdabot> adj 1: affecting things past; "retroactive tax increase"; "an
13:08:59 <lambdabot> ex-post-facto law"; "retro pay" [syn: {ex post facto},
13:09:01 <lambdabot> n 1: a fashion reminiscent of the past
13:09:13 <Phantom_Hoover> And even a dictionary does not reflect vernacular usage.
13:09:18 <fizzie> lambdabot *is* a dictionary.
13:10:11 <fizzie> Is it the ThinkPad sort of T20?
13:10:27 <fizzie> That should come with 128 MB standard.
13:10:30 <fizzie> You've been shortcharged.
13:10:49 <nortti> yes. this is taken from dumpster
13:11:01 <fizzie> I guess in that case you can't complain.
13:11:16 <nortti> 64MB was biggest PC100 stick I could find
13:12:08 <fizzie> IT doesn't have more than one slot? According to specs, you could fill it up to 512 MB officially.
13:12:33 <fizzie> "Recognizes up to 512 MB of addressable memory in models with the Mobile Pentium III processor. Memory options up to 256 MB SDRAM SODIMMs each can be added in the two available slots for memory expansion."
13:12:57 <nortti> fizzie: other slot is damaged
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13:13:15 <nortti> it doesn't recognise RAM in there
13:13:25 <fizzie> Oh. No wonder it was in a dumpster.
13:14:21 <nortti> 16:12 < nortti> 64MB was biggest PC100 stick I could find
13:15:06 <Phantom_Hoover> When you say 'find' I assume you mean 'find in the dumpster'.
13:15:38 <nortti> at used computer store
13:16:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Well I hope you do something nice with the 20 or so you've saved.
13:16:21 <nortti> it had no ram and no hd when it was thrown in there
13:16:49 <nortti> well it is my most powerful computer...
13:16:56 <fizzie> How much money have you invested in this computer?
13:17:33 <nortti> fizzie: 2 euros for ram sticks and 4 euros for HD (from friend)
13:18:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Meanwhile for 20 you could get a Raspberry Pi with better specs.
13:19:40 <nortti> raspi has slower CPU (or so I am told)
13:20:55 <Phantom_Hoover> OTOH you might actually be able to run... well, something on it.
13:21:28 <nortti> well yeah. f they get decent RISC OS port I'll buy one
13:23:42 <fizzie> Ah, I understand: you need it to run RISC OS so that you don't accidentally have a chance to run a modern browser.
13:23:52 <fizzie> s/modern/mainstream/ or whatever.
13:24:26 <fizzie> I see there's a Firefox 2 port, too.
13:24:51 <nortti> well bon echo runs on it and I might be able to port my bit updated fork of gecko 1.8 to it
13:25:07 <Phantom_Hoover> (What is even the deal with Firefox versions? I remember when 2.6 was A Big Deal and now it's up to 13.)
13:25:23 <nortti> there is no firefox 2.6
13:25:48 <fizzie> They had to catch up Chrome is what I think is the deal.
13:25:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Right, sorry, why isn't the thing called Firefox 2.6 actually Firefox 2.6?
13:26:21 <nortti> Phantom_Hoover: what is 2.6? or do you mean 3.6?
13:26:58 <itidus21> firefox probably has more users than linux
13:27:11 <fizzie> Anyway, it's now six weeks per major Firefox version, it's just their scheme.
13:27:28 <fizzie> https://wiki.mozilla.org/RapidRelease and all that.
13:27:37 <nortti> I think that firefox's versioning went to hell after 3
13:28:53 <itidus21> i read that the godfather II set the precident for numbered sequals in hollywood
13:30:02 <itidus21> the fact that they called the sequal of "the godfather" as "the godfather II"
13:31:04 <itidus21> up until then apparently hollywood had been conciously avoiding numbered sequels
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13:35:21 <nortti> I still call firefox 3<x<11 firefox 4 series and firefox 10<x<18 firefox 5 series (switching at ESR)
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13:36:34 <nortti> (and internaly I tweaked my builds to report gecko version as 2.0 and 2.1)
13:37:42 <nortti> 10 is ESR, from there on I call it firefox 5 series. 17 is ESR, from there on I call it firefox 6 series and so on
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13:39:51 <nortti> because 3.6 which is comparable to ESR terminated 3.x series
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13:51:02 <john_metcalf> Monqy fact #7 has to exist to be a lie. Therefore monqy fact #4 is also a lie.
13:51:16 <john_metcalf> So there are at least two Monqy facts we don't know,
13:51:57 <elliott> I've never been more confused in my life. Except when talking to monqy
13:53:01 <elliott> 13:23:42: <fizzie> Ah, I understand: you need it to run RISC OS so that you don't accidentally have a chance to run a modern browser.
13:53:17 <elliott> fizzie: Unfortunately: http://www.netsurf-browser.org/ has an HTML 5 parser and does CSS.
13:53:59 <nortti> netsurf is nice browser. if I'd only get the framebuffer version to build
13:54:59 <itidus21> a given monqy fact can address itself or another given monqy fact!
13:55:23 <Vorpal> <kmc> how come i get the interactive doodle but my friend gets just a simple logo <-- I checked on a phone and all I got was a simple logo
13:55:33 <Vorpal> kmc, so maybe he was using a different browser?
13:55:45 <elliott> kmc: Or timezones, perhaps.
13:56:00 <Vorpal> elliott, they were on the same connection
13:56:24 <itidus21> theres probably some autistic savants who if they numbered lines in their conversations could talk very efficiently
13:57:36 <Vorpal> <elliott> 13:23:42: <fizzie> Ah, I understand: you need it to run RISC OS so that you don't accidentally have a chance to run a modern browser.
13:57:43 <Vorpal> elliott, why are you looking for an old browser?
13:57:57 <Vorpal> just use lynx or something?
13:57:58 <elliott> Vorpal: Why are you responding to a quote out of context and assuming context for it?
13:58:07 <Vorpal> elliott, I read the line below as well
13:58:48 <Vorpal> anyway if the context was wrong, okay, whatever
13:59:31 <nortti> 16:19 < Phantom_Hoover> Meanwhile for ■20 you could get a Raspberry Pi with better specs.
13:59:34 <nortti> 16:19 < Phantom_Hoover> Also it would be awesome./
13:59:37 <nortti> 16:20 < nortti> raspi has slower CPU (or so I am told)
13:59:39 <nortti> 16:21 < Phantom_Hoover> OTOH you might actually be able to run... well, something on it.
13:59:42 <nortti> 16:22 < nortti> well yeah. f they get decent RISC OS port I'll buy one
13:59:47 <nortti> 16:24 < fizzie> Ah, I understand: you need it to run RISC OS so that you don't accidentally have a chance to run a modern browser.
14:00:24 <elliott> Vorpal: nortti's computer hasn't the RAM to display Unicode.
14:00:24 <Vorpal> what the hell is [black box unicode char]20?
14:00:29 <elliott> Vorpal: Thus it is modern bloatware.
14:01:03 <nortti> elliott: actually fbcon just doesn't handle some chars that well
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14:03:21 <itidus21> but i haven't used forth so i can't really say that
14:03:58 <nortti> monqy facts use postfix notation?
14:04:52 <itidus21> the monqy facts language basically consists of building a list of monqy facts
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14:05:45 <Vorpal> hrrm, how do I pull the SMS off a nokia non-smart-phone (dumb phone?)
14:06:16 <nortti> or was it renamed ovi suite
14:06:59 <Vorpal> also all I have is bluetooth, might be able to find a mini-USB somewhere though
14:07:16 <Vorpal> I pulled the contacts over bluetooth easily on Linux
14:08:01 <Vorpal> also my desktop that dual boots to windows has 64-bit windows 7. This phone predates windows vista. Chances of working drivers for 64-bit? Slim.
14:08:26 <nortti> oh. google TM might require html5 support
14:09:12 <Vorpal> well, everyone has that nowdays
14:09:22 <itidus21> nortti: it's such a trivial thing though.. it's not a TM simulator
14:09:23 <Vorpal> unless it is a mobile browser
14:10:01 * john_metcalf wants one of those Touch Book things that run Risc OS.
14:10:12 <Vorpal> hm it is doing /something/
14:10:17 <Vorpal> lots of drivers installing
14:11:08 <Vorpal> and it seems to have nokia suite for 64-bit windows. Well that went better than I expected
14:11:46 <Vorpal> lol this phone has mini-usb but doesn't charge over mini-usb?
14:13:22 <elliott> Man, Sil's manual is fancy as heck.
14:13:36 <elliott> http://www.amirrorclear.net/flowers/game/sil/
14:14:07 <john_metcalf> Yay! The spider that's been hiding inside the keyboard has finally emerged...
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14:14:31 <itidus21> that certainly looks appealing
14:14:51 <elliott> Vorpal: It's a new roguelike that is supposedly very good.
14:14:52 <Vorpal> elliott, is it is an angband fork?
14:15:18 <Vorpal> it mentions Angband on the website
14:15:18 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes, but it completely replaces huge swathes of the mechanics, and heavily discourages the standard grinding and so on.
14:15:27 <elliott> Well, um, Angband is a thing in Tolkein.
14:15:33 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angband
14:15:40 <elliott> "It is also one of very few games that stays true to the writings of Tolkien. Carefully researched, it dispenses with many generic fantasy tropes and reveals a different world. There are no wizards or priests, no platemail or magical scrolls. Instead, it is the Norse Saga inspired world that Tolkien imagined, with warriors clad in shining mail, singing songs of rage or sorrow as they slay. The magic of the world is subtle yet powerful: there are
14:15:40 <elliott> songs of fear and of binding, rather than spells of fireball and teleportation."
14:15:41 <Vorpal> but there is also angband the roguelike
14:15:54 <Vorpal> elliott, is it still ASCII graphics? Because that manual seems way too fancy for that
14:16:05 <elliott> There's screenshots right there on the page, you know.
14:16:18 <elliott> There's no tiles but I think he wants to make an existing Angband tileset or work or something.
14:16:30 <elliott> It's like Minecraft, you can forge your own artefacts!
14:17:00 <Vorpal> oh right, further down
14:18:10 <john_metcalf> Did anyone ever play Legend of the Red Dragon II: New World?
14:18:21 <Vorpal> what sort of game is that?
14:18:41 <john_metcalf> Multi-player BBS door game, slightly roguelike.
14:18:42 <elliott> Vorpal: (Also despite the windowed mode screenshots, it does in fact compile and run in a terminal on Linux.)
14:20:05 <elliott> It also has a nice tutorial thing.
14:20:13 <Vorpal> I would like to see a roguelike with isometric tiles. Avernum style. There is nothing in the concept of roguelike that says it has to be ASCII graphics.
14:20:30 <elliott> Vorpal: See Vulture's Eye.
14:20:37 <elliott> Or its predecessor, Falcon's Eye.
14:21:00 <elliott> Of course, like all tiles versions they're harder to play and less aesthetically pleasing than glyphs.
14:21:04 <Vorpal> oh was that the nethack based thing?
14:21:19 <itidus21> the text on the Sil page does sound like the words of a man possessed by his work
14:21:22 <Vorpal> iirc Falcon's Eye didn't work very well
14:21:33 <elliott> One of the cool thing about Sil I've heard is that you get exp from just seeng monsters, not only fighting them, and also for reaching new depths, etc. So it's feasible to play a pacifist diving game.
14:22:00 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway the tiles were too big in Falcon's Eye. Avernum have really small ones. Not sure about the exact size but less than a tenth of Falcon's Eye's tiles I would say
14:22:05 <itidus21> elliott: yeah even i noticed that... on one of the screenshots.. thats mind blowing
14:23:21 <itidus21> its still not even close to the type of games i play but i can tell that it's cool
14:24:08 <itidus21> "Encountering another would be worth 26 experience. Killing one would be worth 80."
14:30:51 <fizzie> elliott: NetSurf is kind of why I changed 'modern' to 'mainstream'.
14:31:07 <elliott> fizzie: I didn't notice. :(
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14:46:47 <Phantom_Hoover> "Secondly the code is extremely complicated, toady has a Ph.D in mathematics." -- redditor, on DF.
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15:42:02 <ion> http://madebyevan.com/webgl-path-tracing/
15:45:28 <Gregor> nortti: Errrr, are you Martin Unzner?
15:45:48 <Gregor> Judging by the .fi in your domain, I'm gonna go with "no"
15:46:12 <Gregor> nortti: Is your version of C2BF up somewhere?
15:47:55 <elliott> Gregor: who;s martin unzner
15:48:09 <Gregor> elliott: Somebody who just emailed a patch to C2BF to me.
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16:19:09 <elliott> ais523: what is the UTF-8 encoding of that? thx
16:20:53 <Gregor> 11100010 10001000 10011001
16:20:55 <Gregor> You can hex it yourself.
16:21:41 <elliott> Gregor: is it really three bytes
16:22:12 <elliott> Gregor: are you lying to me
16:23:24 <Gregor> You should've been able to do that yourself ;)
16:23:51 <Gregor> Then split it by groups of 6 from the right
16:24:02 <Gregor> Then add UTF-8 prefixes
16:24:10 <Gregor> 11100010 10001000 10011001
16:25:56 <itidus21> 0b isn't a lot of work but i wonder if one day numbers will be more complicated
16:26:47 <Taneb> itidus21, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_base#Base_.E2.88.921.C2.B1i
16:26:50 <itidus21> like depending on the size of a number, changes it's default base encoding
16:27:20 <itidus21> i was thinking on a different tangent but i may as well clikc this link!
16:28:02 <nortti> Gregor: my c2bf is not available anywhere. I'd like to include his patch if he agrees to license it under ISC/MIT/BSD/CC0/WTFPL license
16:28:27 <Taneb> nortti, as a single license?
16:29:00 <nortti> one of those. my fork is under ISC
16:29:16 <Gregor> It's a small patch, but I'd rather see your version become accessible first ;)
16:29:51 <nortti> I'll try to get it to github
16:30:33 <Taneb> itidus21, like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factorial_number_system ?
16:30:51 <itidus21> ill click that in a second.. but what i am proposing is truely fucked up
16:31:35 <itidus21> x=1 xx=10 xxx=11 xxxx=4 xxxxx=5 xxx xxx=6 xxxx xxx=7 xxxx xxxx=8 xxxxx xxxx=9 xxxxx xxxxx=A x xxxxx xxxxx=B xx xxxxx xxxxx=12
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16:38:25 <itidus21> basically though, using a sequence of digits without specifying the base, the only rule being that a sequence of digits maps to only one numeric value
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16:39:24 <Taneb> itidus21, I'm going to say that is actually stupid.
16:39:46 <Taneb> You'd need to explicitly define a new sequence of digits for each number
16:42:57 <itidus21> x=1 xx=10 xxx=11 xxxx=1111 xxxxx=5 xxx xxx=6 xxxx xxx=21 xxxx xxxx=8 xxxxx xxxx=9 xxxxx xxxxx=A
16:47:13 <Taneb> That pretty much rules out induction
16:47:23 <Taneb> And limits you to a finite number of numbers
16:47:30 <itidus21> well it doesn't absolutely have to be arbitrary
16:47:46 <Taneb> Yes it does, the only rule is that they're unique
16:48:53 <itidus21> prime numbers can be in hexadecimal!
16:48:59 <Taneb> If it was just silly, that would be okay
16:49:09 <Taneb> But if it's arbitrary, it's useless
16:50:35 <itidus21> where a number is a prime number in both decimal and hexadecimal... then its digits are to be interpreted as-- this aint gonna work
16:50:50 <itidus21> but, that would be an interesting set of numbers!
16:51:45 <itidus21> well i couldn't make an encoding rule out of that trivially
16:51:54 <itidus21> but it is in itself a fascinating sequence
16:52:05 <Taneb> Yeah, after 17 the next is 29
16:52:21 <lambdabot> forall a (m :: * -> *). (MonadFix m) => (a -> m a) -> m a
16:52:26 <lambdabot> forall w (m :: * -> *). (MonadWriter w m) => w -> m ()
16:52:50 <Taneb> > execWriter $ mfix (\x -> tell [1] >> return x)
16:53:14 <Taneb> How useless is that?
16:53:35 <elliott> you don't actually use the result
16:54:11 <Taneb> The result is _|_, I think
16:54:21 <lambdabot> Source not found. stty: unknown mode: doofus
16:56:15 <Taneb> @src Writer [Int] mfix
16:56:15 <lambdabot> Source not found. Take a stress pill and think things over.
16:56:27 <lambdabot> Source not found. You untyped fool!
16:56:34 <lambdabot> Source not found. You type like i drive.
16:56:37 <lambdabot> src <id>. Display the implementation of a standard function
16:58:45 <Taneb> @src mfix WriterT w m
16:58:46 <lambdabot> Source not found. Maybe if you used more than just two fingers...
16:58:48 <Taneb> mfix m = WriterT $ mfix $ \ ~(a, _) -> runWriterT (m a)
17:01:14 <itidus21> dang they sure do have a sequence for everything
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17:01:37 <Taneb> iota programs which do not halt
17:03:32 <Taneb> Is there a term for trees where the data is in the leaves rather than the branches?
17:03:49 <Taneb> data LeafTree a = Node a | Branch [LeafTree a]
17:04:15 <oerjan> that type is a Monad, btw
17:04:31 <Taneb> oerjan, it's Free [], I believe
17:04:51 <Taneb> Whereas a branch tree is Cofree []
17:05:26 <oerjan> lambdabot's Tree seems to have it in the branches
17:05:36 <Taneb> Yeah, it's Data.Tree
17:05:59 <oerjan> oh Cofree? so a comonad?
17:06:09 * oerjan doesn't actually know Cofree but guesses so
17:06:23 <Taneb> Data Cofree f a = a :< f (Cofree f a)
17:08:09 <oerjan> Cofree Maybe is non-empty lists?
17:08:30 <Taneb> Cofree Identity is infinite streams
17:08:51 <Vorpal> heh I read that as coffee first
17:09:09 <Taneb> data Zero a = Zero?
17:09:23 <Taneb> (I'd call it Proxy)
17:09:32 <Taneb> Cofree Zero is Identity
17:09:46 <oerjan> not Zero, that was wrong
17:10:21 <Taneb> I'd call that Void?
17:10:34 <oerjan> by zzo38's terminology, maybe i should try not to absorb that :P
17:10:56 <Taneb> Plus is Either, right?
17:11:44 <Taneb> that's right on the edge of my comprehension, I'm gonna brb and think about that
17:12:33 <elliott> Taneb: think of the cardinality
17:12:43 <elliott> how many functions A -> B are there, given the size of A is x and the size of B is why
17:12:50 <elliott> (consider A = Ordering, B = Bool, and so on)
17:19:22 <Taneb> But nobody answered my question :/
17:22:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Baptists do not fear getting their trousers soaked, apparently.
17:23:52 <Taneb> Apparently, there's a sale at IKEA
17:24:40 <elliott> Carl Full Immersion Baptism Baptismal Service Baptisms Baptise Baptists Baptize
17:25:16 <Taneb> Someone doesn't know how to use tags
17:26:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: what if he was too tall and banged his head
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17:54:10 <Taneb> Do you know if there is a name for tree structures where the data is stored in the leaves rather than the branches?
17:55:28 <calamari> isn't data usually stored in both?
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18:03:06 <Taneb> zzo38, do you know if there is a name for tree structures where data is stored in the leaves rather than the branches?
18:11:27 <zzo38> Taneb: I don't know. But if it is binary tree, then data stored in leaves would be (Free ((->) Bool)) and data stored in branches would be (Cofree ((->) Bool)), I think.
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18:12:04 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: what if he was too tall and banged his head
18:13:34 <nooga_> elliott: is there a specific town in GB that brits make jokes about?
18:18:27 <oklopol> they call hexham the eso state and often make brainfuck jokes about it.
18:29:56 <john_metcalf> What's the best way to sum an array of floats? Maybe remove the smallest two and put their sum in the array until only one is left?
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18:32:19 <john_metcalf> nooga_: not really towns, just a few cities and regions.
18:32:53 <Taneb> A Finger Tree, I think, is an example of what I've been asking about
18:33:33 <Taneb> zzo38, leaves is Free []; branches is Cofree []
18:33:54 <zzo38> Taneb: Yes, that is the multiple branches tree
18:34:16 <Taneb> I suppose the (->) Bool works as a binary one
18:41:04 <itidus21> i think i'm starting to actually learn something
18:41:48 <Taneb> What are you learning
18:42:11 <itidus21> ah.. i have thought up a really bizzare thing
18:42:44 <itidus21> numerous questions in my mind abound..
18:43:58 <itidus21> 1)does it already exist? 2)is it patented? a lot? i always dislike patents. 3)is it too similar to anything?
18:44:07 <itidus21> just the usual questions of direness
18:44:21 <nooga_> john_metcalf: can You give an example?
18:45:57 <itidus21> Taneb: ahh.. well i have done enough reading for today about random things.. my brain probably needs a rest
18:46:05 <itidus21> that is why i am thinking about making coffee
18:46:39 <itidus21> ok ok ill just tell you my idea
18:47:38 <john_metcalf> nooga_: Essex: easy girls, Norfolk: inbred, Somerset: cider drinking farmers, Wales: sheep shaggers
18:48:11 <zzo38> I also dislike patents a lot
18:48:19 <itidus21> to hook up a virtual animation studio to a FSA
18:48:28 <Taneb> nooga_, Glasgow: murderous murderers
18:49:02 <Taneb> john_metcalf, your stereotypes seem quite southern
18:49:02 <itidus21> i wonder if this is infact just a dumb version of mugen... it might be :P
18:50:34 <itidus21> 1)place a cel 2)remove a cel 3)draw on a cel(including drawing nothing) 4)move a cel 5)change the z-layer of a cel 6)photograph the scene
18:52:42 <itidus21> x,y <- cel position(cel #), x <- cel z-layer(cel #), x <- cel drawing(cel #), list of cels <- cels at point(x,y), list of cels <- cels in rect(x1,y1,x2,y2)
18:52:56 <itidus21> not sure about that list of cels bit
18:53:03 <itidus21> don't have a good reason for it
18:54:00 <itidus21> taking all these things and connecting them to a FSA and producing a series of "photographs"
18:58:59 <itidus21> place a cel at 50,50 -> draw frame 1 on cel 1 -> photograph -> move cel 1 to 55,50 -> draw frame 2 on cel 1 -> photograph
18:59:02 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: lots of bagpipes
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18:59:40 <john_metcalf> Phantom_Hoover: can't think of anything specific to Edinburgh.
19:00:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Only really on formal occasions or on the goddamn bagpipers.
19:00:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Edinburgh is only stereotypically Scottish when convenient.
19:00:17 <itidus21> -> place a cel at 55,50 -> draw frame hat on cel 2 -> photograph
19:00:35 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, like Glasgow but nicer
19:00:43 <Taneb> So, not like Glasgow at all
19:01:10 <itidus21> -> move cel 1 to 60,50 -> move cel 2 to 60,50 -> photograph
19:01:18 <oerjan> `addquote <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, like Glasgow but nicer <Taneb> So, not like Glasgow at all
19:01:21 <HackEgo> 846) <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, like Glasgow but nicer <Taneb> So, not like Glasgow at all
19:01:49 <Taneb> `quote fight crime
19:01:53 <HackEgo> 661) <Phantom_Hoover> No you can't fight crime in Glasgow. <Phantom_Hoover> It's like trying to get rid of the space-time continuum.
19:02:35 <HackEgo> 498) <Phantom_Hoover> Riots in Glasgow would probably be reported as a sudden drop in crime. \ 661) <Phantom_Hoover> No you can't fight crime in Glasgow. <Phantom_Hoover> It's like trying to get rid of the space-time continuum. \ 846) <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, like Glasgow but nicer <Taneb> So, not like Glasgow at all
19:04:34 <itidus21> so my system places and removes cels much like a TM writes on a tape, thus it is quite possibly turing complete except obviously theres been no details of what the FSA consists of
19:05:12 <itidus21> ive been addressing the individual cels..
19:05:23 <itidus21> but although they could have infinite addresses
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19:13:47 <itidus21> each cell of the "tape" would have 3 elements X x Y x Drawing, all set to 0 by default
19:15:49 <itidus21> the z-order could simply be the order of the cels on the tape
19:15:55 <zzo38> Glasgow? Did they invent GHC?
19:21:12 <itidus21> so for this picture, http://0.tqn.com/d/webclipart/1/5/Q/p/4/Chair-on-beach.jpg my tape encoding would be something like ...[blank][blank]^[background][umbrella][chair][blank][blank]...
19:22:09 <itidus21> and it would draw the cells from the tapehead rightwards until it got to the last non-blank
19:23:28 <itidus21> ;_; i'm insane and my parents only had 2 children. what a legacy
19:24:54 <itidus21> i guess i'm reinventing the display list rather awkwardly
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19:27:06 <itidus21> actually i think i'm onto something here
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19:49:12 <Phantom_Hoover> "His family members include his parents[...], and his sister" -- WP article on Christopher Paolini.
19:50:50 <oerjan> but not his brother, that black sheep.
19:50:59 <Taneb> I think the alternative would be more disturbing
19:51:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Christopher Paolini was birthed from the infinite flux of chaos.
19:51:39 <Phantom_Hoover> itidus21, you need to record it or something, it doesn't work as text.
19:52:29 <itidus21> you mean like, saying it in an unsettling voice on youtube?
19:53:09 <oerjan> also wear a darth vader suit
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19:54:06 <nortti> yay. I finaly got to see google TM using opera mobile
19:54:11 <itidus21> i don't have such a suit, but i could point yonder in a distinguished manner.
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20:04:47 <itidus21> i wonder if alan turing might make it onto epic rap battles of history after this google drawing attention to him
20:05:25 <itidus21> or maybe i would not pay much attention
20:05:34 <itidus21> i dont often pay attention to google celebrations
20:07:57 <elliott> ion: You know, Google(TM).
20:11:40 <Taneb> Internet ask me anything?
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20:13:51 <ion> What’s special about it when using Opera Mobile?
20:15:12 <itidus21> he doesn't have any other way of viewing it
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20:16:48 <zzo38> One of the messages in my fortune file is this: **DO NOT REMOVE THIS MESSAGE FROM THIS FORTUNE FILE**
20:19:05 <zzo38> Use mine if you want to
20:19:35 <zzo38> echo fortune | nc zzo38computer.cjb.net 70
20:19:54 <zzo38> In some systems you may need echo fortune | nc -q -1 zzo38computer.cjb.net 70
20:20:19 <zzo38> What does what do?
20:21:05 <zzo38> In the system I have needed it on, at least, it prevents the client from closing the connection.
20:21:17 <zzo38> So the connection will only be closed by the server.
20:28:28 <zzo38> You might or might not find on your system that it requires -q -1 and if it does, it will be required for all gopher and headerless HTTP
20:33:29 <zzo38> Does LLVM have any commands for making a self-modifying code?
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20:48:43 <nortti> why would you want to produce self-modifying code?
20:50:47 <Phantom_Hoover> You can't see why one would want to produce self-modifying code?
20:51:58 <kmc> there are many non-esoteric uses for self-modifying code as well
20:52:06 <kmc> the Linux kernel has like 12 kinds of self-modifying code
20:52:38 <nortti> for esolang yes but self modifying code in compiled c programs - no
20:52:52 <kmc> zzo38 did not say C, he said LLVM
20:53:14 <monqy> llvm is just compiled c "everyone knows that" "come on"
20:53:48 <kmc> if you build a Linux kernel for SMP x86 and then boot it on a uniprocessor, it will rewrite the code to remove all the LOCK prefixes
20:54:15 <kmc> if you boot this kernel on a SMP system, and then hot-unplug all but one of the processors, it will do this dynamically (and will undo it if you hotplug another processor)
20:55:04 <zzo38> Actually LLVM has some features that C doesn't, but also lacks a few features which C has (such as unions).
20:55:17 <kmc> likewise it will rewrite the code at boot according to available CPU features (e.g. choosing between CPUID and MFENCE for serialization)
20:55:47 <kmc> and will rewrite certain instructions to be hypervisor calls when booted under paravirtualization
20:56:44 <kmc> Linux also uses SMC for tracepoints, verbosity setting, etc
20:57:43 <zzo38> Perhaps there should be some metadata to tell it to make a global variable belong to an instruction, and can be told read/write/both lock on that ownership
20:58:46 <zzo38> Or no locks if you want no locks on the ownership
21:00:54 <elliott> <monqy> llvm is just compiled c "everyone knows that" "come on"
21:00:58 <elliott> monqy: no, llvm is better than c
21:01:01 <elliott> monqy: haven't you even LISTENED to zzo38
21:01:14 <elliott> kmc: that LOCK thing is cool
21:01:17 <elliott> kmc: @ will do stuff like that!
21:01:40 <zzo38> These metadata to make a global variable belong to an instruction would probably be ignored on a Harvard architecture though, unless it has ways to deal with it anyways
21:01:43 <monqy> elliott: c improves when compiled, clearly
21:02:04 <zzo38> So this would be one kind of self-modifying code
21:04:10 <zzo38> The instruction that the global variable belongs to, might potentially run faster than it otherwise would, and possibly make the executable a few bytes smaller
21:06:54 <Phantom_Hoover> I love how TV Tropes is steadily lobotomising itself by purging any examples for anything even vaguely controversial.
21:07:54 <Phantom_Hoover> The most obvious one that comes to mind is that all Mary Sue-related tropes have had their examples completely removed.
21:08:59 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: ... So, what, they're trying to be 'legit' or something?
21:09:01 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, it wasn't particularly /good/ content, and a lot of it was an argumentative mess, but there's a certain pleasure in reading it.
21:09:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Still waiting for them to introduce notability criteria.
21:09:37 <zzo38> I think LLVM now even supports the feature of Pascal to specify the valid range of a variable
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21:11:28 <kmc> what would it mean for a variable to belong to an instruction?
21:12:18 <zzo38> kmc: It means the value of the variable is a literal operand to that instruction.
21:12:42 <zzo38> (That is, if the instruction is reading the variable)
21:12:44 <kmc> ah, Linux has (or had) that too
21:13:10 <kmc> the API is like a global variable but (on some platforms) the variable reads are immediate loads, and the variable writes modify that code
21:13:46 <Lumpio-> Isn't TVTropes ran mostly by Americans?
21:13:48 <zzo38> Yes that is what I mean
21:13:56 <Lumpio-> It isn't really a big surprise they're trying to get rid of "controversy"
21:14:10 <Phantom_Hoover> I also loved it when they changed Crowning Moment of Awesome to... Moment of Awesome.
21:14:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Lumpio-, I'm going to assume you're kidding because my hate pool is running low.
21:14:49 <kmc> Lumpio-: that's a ridiculous comparison
21:15:14 <Lumpio-> Showing a nipple is worse than murder.
21:15:28 <kmc> by "they" you mean all 300 million Americans, yes?
21:15:48 <Lumpio-> I mean the culture they've created (and by extension all the cultures negatively affected by it)
21:16:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Lumpio-, oh, they also purged more or less every page they decided was 'porn'.
21:16:45 <kmc> Lumpio-: who's censoring music CDs?
21:16:49 <Phantom_Hoover> This extended to Lolita until saner minds shouted them down.
21:17:00 <Lumpio-> If something has sexual content in it it's just "porn". Of no value to any decent gentleman.
21:17:16 <Lumpio-> Having a work of fiction with both sexual content *and* a good, intriguing story is unheard of over there.
21:17:22 <kmc> no it's not
21:17:30 <pikhq_> Lumpio-: The only censorship in music CDs is from Walmart refusing to sell uncensored music.
21:17:48 <Lumpio-> And how big is wal-mart again?
21:17:57 <kmc> right, a private company puts a warning sticker on a CD (and still sells it) and then another private company refuses to sell that CD in their stores
21:17:59 <Lumpio-> And somehow I doubt they're the only ones.
21:18:02 <kmc> and other companies do sell it
21:18:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Lumpio-, I'm guessing that you have never, say, heard of Game of Thrones?
21:18:08 <kmc> "American retailer Best Buy only carries uncensored albums in their physical stores"
21:18:10 <Lumpio-> The warning sticker is bad enough
21:18:11 <kmc> *uncensored*
21:18:23 <Lumpio-> The fact that you must label them as "uncensored" is ridiculous
21:18:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh wait, sorry, in that scene with all the topless whores some of them had one breast covered up.
21:19:01 <kmc> i agree that the stickers are silly but to call them "censorship" is a bit much
21:19:03 <pikhq_> If it were a company, it'd be one of the world's largest economies...
21:19:11 <Lumpio-> Phantom_Hoover: So it has clearly visible unambiguous nipples?
21:19:24 <pikhq_> Anyways: as far as I know, Walmart's the only company that actually refuses uncensored music.
21:19:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Clearly visible nipples are an "at least once an episode" thing.
21:19:45 <Lumpio-> It must be a pioneering work then
21:19:49 <kmc> Lumpio-: the thing is, I would have agreed with you if you just said "American attitudes towards sex and profanity are ridiculous"
21:20:00 <kmc> but you came on way too strong and said ridiculous things yourself
21:20:05 <kmc> and basically destroyed your credibility
21:20:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Maybe you should actually learn about things before going on crusades.
21:20:09 <kmc> AMERIKKKA AM I RITE
21:20:26 <kmc> NAZIMERIKKKOMMUNISTA
21:20:37 <Lumpio-> Phantom_Hoover: Did the crusaders really "learn" or "think" before going on theirs? No.
21:20:59 <kmc> hooray for trolls
21:21:38 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, I'm not sure he is a troll, although that would be better.
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21:21:59 <kmc> also even if TVTropes is run by Americans, i highly doubt it's run by the segment of American society which has a huge stick up its ass about sex and profanity
21:22:11 <kmc> which isn't really that many of us
21:22:17 <kmc> they are just loud and try to impose their views on everyone else
21:23:38 <Phantom_Hoover> TbH initially it was because Google pulled their ads from the site because of some of the more risque content *cough*fetishfuel*cough* but when they started deleting stuff like Lolita and Naughty Tentacles it went well beyond reasonable.
21:24:26 <kmc> "We no longer collect examples of fetish fuel. We did so for long enough to establish that literally everything is someone's fetish fuel, and that some few individuals are quite willing to go on about theirs at length. The topic seems to want to get out of Family Friendly territory too easily for TV Tropes, so we spun off another wiki for it: Fetish Fuel Wiki."
21:24:29 <zzo38> It is because of Google?
21:24:47 <kmc> that seems pretty reasonable
21:24:54 <Lumpio-> So who decides what's "fetish fuel" or not
21:25:04 <kmc> dude it was a specific article
21:25:05 <zzo38> Perhaps everything is fetish fuel
21:25:13 <Lumpio-> If one of the mods had a raging foot fetish would any articles involving feet be banned?
21:25:22 <kmc> you completely misunderstand
21:25:24 <kmc> also you're an idiot
21:25:27 <kmc> good luck everyone
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21:25:33 <zzo38> Lumpio-: No, but any articles involving hand would be banned.
21:25:44 <monqy> is parting a "thing" now
21:25:54 <monqy> i want to be cool too !!
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21:29:28 <Taneb> If I leave the channel, it'll stop being cool
21:29:41 <zzo38> Do you like to stop being cool, or not?
21:31:56 <Taneb> That's how it works
21:32:08 <Taneb> zzo38, I don't really care. Fate conspires to keep me uncool
21:32:15 <Taneb> I'm destiny's anti-hipster
21:32:29 <Taneb> I only do things after they're cool
21:39:55 <nortti> I know. I have to leave this channel for few weeks
21:40:27 <nortti> nortti-, my bouncer will still be here thoug
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21:54:34 <Taneb> He'll stop anyone without an invite coming in
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22:15:16 <Taneb> https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?hl=en&tab=ww#hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q=define:bouncer&oq=define:bouncer&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_l=hp.3...6222.6222.1.6424.1.1.0.0.0.0.52.52.1.1.0...0.0.QGwSZnmncyE&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=21405353d8475aae&biw=1366&bih=682
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22:36:56 <ais523> wow does Wine have a lot of dependencies
22:37:01 <ais523> I suppose in retrospect that wasn't really surprising
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22:54:58 <nortti> http://pics.kuvaton.com/kuvei/windows_evolution.jpeg
22:56:05 <itidus21> i don't need to speak deutsche to know what that troll is thinking
22:56:52 <itidus21> humm... there seems to be a pattern
22:57:05 <itidus21> first MS releases a gut Windows, then a scheisse
22:57:13 <quintopia> i dont think win95 was particularly shit
22:57:44 <itidus21> yeah theres some artistic license taken
22:59:04 <Gregor> Windows 2K was never touted as a consumer OS.
22:59:17 <Gregor> If you're going to complain that they left it out, they also left out NT 3 and 4.
22:59:32 <Gregor> Is that really so vital?
22:59:48 <Gregor> Well, it's not. I have other things to do.
23:00:30 <itidus21> im glad to hear that. everyone knows win 8 will be crap.
23:01:00 <zzo38> Who won the war of 1812?
23:01:15 <itidus21> the best possible outcome would be that windows vs linux is like encarta vs wikipedia
23:02:24 <itidus21> yeah it was a commercial encyclopedia.. apparently MS bought some encyclopedias and stuck them together on a cd
23:02:59 <Gregor> It was semipopular before Wikipedia.
23:07:17 <itidus21> hmm.. i can go a day without producing any more cynicism
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00:22:44 <zzo38> Is there a command in MinGW to cut off all lines of stderr after a specified line number?
00:30:33 <zzo38> Is anyone going to make MMIX hardware?
00:33:04 <zzo38> The only thing I want to omit is the rN register; perhaps its meaning can be changed to something else (I think there was a suggestion once about this)
00:34:16 <zzo38> GCC can already compile into MMIX, they should also make LLVM to compile into MMIX, and also LLVM compile into Glulx as well
00:39:05 <zzo38> If LLVM compiles to Glulx, we could make up a LLVM file which implements glk.h with inline assembly language and inlining and so on
00:40:27 <nortti-> why do you want to omit rN register?
00:42:48 <zzo38> The rN register does nothing useful.
00:43:27 <nortti-> oh. it confused it with rM
00:46:36 <zzo38> rM should be included. However, rN should be omitted or modified to mean something else.
00:55:57 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/compsci/comments/u1ptn/modern_computers_are_supposed_to_be_von_neumann/
00:56:29 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm not sure this person knows quite what 'equivalent' means.
00:57:01 <zzo38> Is there a DVI format of Fascicle 1 MMIX? The PDF renders badly.
01:03:10 <zzo38> I cannot find any of DVI files for those things, or any TeX source files either
01:04:26 <zzo38> (The PDFs also print badly unless you have the same printer as whoever made the PDF and there are no rounding errors.)
01:25:36 <zzo38> Synthesizer for ITMCK works
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03:17:18 <Sgeo> Io seems like it might be a good language for a codenomic
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04:14:01 <coppro> anyOf fs c = any ($ c) fs
04:15:50 <kmc> well using anyOf in a higher order context is nicer than using (any . flip ($)) or whatever
04:16:14 <kmc> but if you're applying the arguments on-site, i think any ($ c) fs is better
04:16:49 <coppro> but I was just generalizing there
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04:21:28 <coppro> isFoo c = any ($ c) [isA, isB, isC]
04:23:19 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `Bool' against inferred type `[a]'
04:23:27 <kmc> oh, that seems reasonable
04:23:30 <lambdabot> forall (f :: * -> *). (Functor f, Monad f) => [f Bool] -> f Bool
04:23:55 <kmc> :t (Prelude.or Prelude..) Prelude.. Prelude.sequence
04:23:56 <lambdabot> forall a. [a -> Bool] -> a -> Bool
04:24:42 <lambdabot> forall (g :: * -> *). (Monad g, Functor g) => [g Bool] -> g Bool
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04:29:26 <shachaf> copumpkin: I'd be more surprised if he hadn't, since (.:) = (.) . (.)
04:34:38 <zzo38> My .: is (.:) :: (Category cat, Functor f) => cat b c -> f (cat a b) -> f (cat a c);
04:36:54 <shachaf> class Nyan cat where (=^..^=) :: cat b c -> cat a b -> cat a c
04:38:08 <olsner> class Nyan cat where (=^..^=) :: cat cat cat -> cat cat cat -> cat cat cat
04:39:40 <kmc> yes i'm sure GHC 7.6 will support equirecursive infinite kinds
04:40:52 <kmc> well, what's the kind of 'cat' in that typeclass?
04:41:38 <shachaf> Oh, you didn't mean that GHC 7.6 will actually support.
04:42:07 <kmc> i was using sarcasm
04:42:30 <kmc> it does seem to be the direction they're going in
04:42:56 <kmc> equirecursive infinite typekind class family polymorphism
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04:50:58 <zzo38> What does "equirecursive infinite typekind class family polymorphism" means?
04:51:34 <zzo38> Yesterday I was looking at Wikipedia about comma category now I can understand comma category better
04:51:37 <olsner> I think it means that cat cat cat can be a valid type
04:51:40 <kmc> it means nothing zzo38
04:51:44 <kmc> it is a joke
04:51:54 <kmc> add this to your training set on jokes
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04:52:06 <kmc> olsner: equirecursive infinite kinds would do that
04:52:39 <kmc> cat :: μk. k -> k -> *
04:53:06 <kmc> equirecursive means that you don't need explicit wrapping/unwrapping (as opposed to isorecursive)
04:54:26 <olsner> so isorecursive would be using a newtype to make infinite types?
04:54:31 <copumpkin> zzo38: have you come across slice categories already?
04:54:38 <kmc> olsner: yeah, at type level
04:54:42 <kmc> i'm not sure what it would be at kind level
04:56:15 <zzo38> copumpkin: They are mentioned in the same article
04:56:25 <copumpkin> yeah, slice category is a specific instance of comma
04:56:33 <copumpkin> being more concrete, it might be more obvious though
04:59:39 <zzo38> With Ibtlfmm, we would have "kind" and "data kind" declarations (the first for kind synonyms, the second for enumerating the types belonging to it and how many parameters they are required to take; all the parameters are kinds, and there is only one "kind of kinds")
05:02:28 <zzo38> So you can write: kind Constraint = &; kind Nat = +; kind Type = *; kind Module = @; and so on, including synonyms for more complicated kinds, as well as data kinds
05:03:43 <zzo38> I have thought about some other categories, such as sum of categories and product of categories. I think, the sum or product of thin categories is thin, the sum or product of discrete categories is discrete, etc. Some categories may be the sum and/or product of other categories.
05:04:53 <zzo38> And then it would seem you can even combine monads and comonads from the categories you can making a sum or product of
05:14:52 <zzo38> There is then the category of no objects being the identity for the sum, and the discrete category of a single object for the identity for product.
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05:17:01 <zzo38> copumpkin: Do you know anything of these kind of sum and product of categories?
05:17:28 <copumpkin> there's definitely product categories
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05:17:41 <copumpkin> and I think you can do a coproduct of categories too, but it's a bit more involved
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05:18:08 <copumpkin> but the category of small categories definitely has all products
05:20:29 <zzo38> What I mean by these sum and product of categories is: Sum means, the objects are (C, X) where C is one of its term categories and X is an object of C, and the morphisms are (C, f) where f is a morphism of C, so if f:X->Y then (C,f):(C,X)->(C,Y). Product means, objects are (C, D, ...) where C, D, ... are its factor categories and the morphisms are the morphism one from each factor category.
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05:24:27 <copumpkin> just look at products and coproducts in the category of small categories
05:24:44 <copumpkin> coproducts are pretty easy, actually, as far as I can tell
05:25:29 <copumpkin> coproduct is the more conventional term
05:25:42 <zzo38> OK, well I did think and write about both sum and product of categories
05:25:59 <copumpkin> well, you know about products and coproducts within categories?
05:26:35 <copumpkin> then work out if your constructions fit the descriptions :)
05:27:17 <copumpkin> it contains all the objects and all the morphisms from the two "addends"
05:27:26 <copumpkin> and then you have injection functors from the two addends
05:27:28 <zzo38> Yes, that is how I mean
05:27:44 <zzo38> And yes then you also have a functor from the addend to the sum
05:29:41 <zzo38> I think they even form a semiring?
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05:33:20 <zzo38> For multiplication you can make up a discrete category from any natural number so that the sum of a category with itself is like the product of that category with the discrete category with two objects.
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05:55:36 <zzo38> Can exponent category now be made? I can think of something, but maybe won't work since the exponent may not always be discrete.
05:58:46 <copumpkin> since Cat is a CCC, it should exist
05:58:53 <copumpkin> I haven't thought about what it would mean though
05:59:36 <copumpkin> you might want to ask in ##categorytheory
06:01:29 <zzo38> I have thought a little bit about it
06:01:54 <zzo38> So I think I know what it means at least if the exponent is discrete
06:02:33 <zzo38> I try to think of it more too; maybe I will manage to think of it
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07:07:10 -!- oerjan has set topic: Food is just pals you eat. Here's a spork for ya. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | This is what the bfjoust hill will look like under the new scoring system: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=XEWnVMg8.
07:13:45 <zzo38> How many people in here know some things about category theory? How many people do not know?
07:14:55 <zzo38> Before you joined to this channel, I have discussed sum and product of categories, and also thinking about power/exponent of categories.
07:18:15 <zzo38> Any monads and comonads in the categories the sum/product is made from, can also be combined to make monads/comonads in the sum/product as well, I think
07:18:21 <oerjan> those things are usually defined _in_ categories afaik, which means that if you want to do them _of_ categories you want to look at Cat, the category of categories
07:19:58 <zzo38> Yes I do mean of categories. And I have written above about how to do; you may review the logs if you want to
07:21:52 <oerjan> what i mean is that your definitions are likely to be equivalent to the usual definitions as applied to Cat
07:23:38 * pikhq_ mutters about being vaguely near a wildfire
07:24:10 <zzo38> Using these sum and product I would also think, the numbers are being like the discrete categories with that many objects
07:24:11 <pikhq_> I don't know if the fire has anything to do with it, but respiration is irritated!
07:24:51 <oerjan> for example, if you have a functor F from A to C and a functor G from B to C, then there should be a unique functor H from A+B to C such that F and G are the compositions of H with the embeddings
07:25:50 <oerjan> and dually for products
07:26:05 <oklopol> is that the universal property?
07:26:06 <zzo38> Yes, I believe you, it makes sense
07:26:36 <oklopol> category theory is so awesome
07:28:05 <oerjan> while the power/exponent should be defined if Cat is a cartesian closed category, by another universal property
07:28:43 <zzo38> Do you get the property I have described if the exponent is discrete?
07:29:00 <oerjan> um i didn't read what you said before
07:29:15 <oklopol> i was gonna check what the UP for power is but ended up reading about sheaves and taking a break now. those things are crazy.
07:29:17 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartesian_closed_category says it is
07:30:13 <zzo38> What I have described is that, if C is to the power of a discrete category having two objects, it will be like a product of C with C, and so on
07:30:15 <oerjan> ^ Y is defined as the right adjoint functor of x Y
07:30:40 <oerjan> zzo38: sounds reasonable
07:31:58 <oerjan> Hom(X x 2, Z) ~= Hom(X, Z^2)
07:32:30 <oerjan> X x 2 ought to be ~ X + X
07:33:11 <zzo38> I have described above that the sum of C with C, is like the product of C with a discrete category having 2 objects.
07:33:19 <oerjan> so then you get Hom(X + X, Z) ~= Hom(X, Z x Z), which looks like it might follow from the universal properties
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07:35:56 <oerjan> zzo38: i think http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartesian_closed_category#Equational_theory may be relevant
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07:44:52 <zzo38> I believe that does show the property I described to be the case.
07:46:23 <zzo38> What of monads and comonads on the exponent category then?
07:46:47 <zzo38> What is a category called if all isomorphisms are endomorphisms?
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07:52:31 <zzo38> Does it have a name?
07:57:40 <oerjan> zzo38: skeletal category http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skeleton_(category_theory)
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08:25:14 <zzo38> What values of Cwt should I use for ITMCK?
08:25:45 -!- derdon has joined.
08:26:57 <zzo38> Perhaps 0x7000 is OK since OpenMPT Wiki does not list any other trackers as using that, and the actual version number can be determined by the name of the first instrument
08:28:16 <zzo38> You can, however, use the -w command-line switch or the #TRACKER-VERSION command in the input file to override the Cwt value to be whatever you want.
08:30:03 <zzo38> But if you have other suggestions you can tell me
08:33:45 <zzo38> I have added the information to the wiki http://wiki.openmpt.org/Development:_Formats/IT as instructed.
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09:04:16 <Taneb> Some guy on the TV is saying "Where in the bible does it say we have to pay tax?"
09:04:29 <Taneb> I want to punch him in the face and say Matthew 22:21
09:05:46 <Sgeo> Is that the one that's Render Caesar's unto Caesar's?
09:05:58 <Sgeo> Because that's easy to twist into meaning absolutely nothing whatsoever.
09:06:50 <Gregor> Very much like the rest of the Bible.
09:07:17 <pikhq_> Sgeo: Caesar was a god, so of course you had to pay tax to him.
09:07:30 <pikhq_> Obama is Satan, so you shouldn't pay taxes to *him*.
09:08:03 <Taneb> How about David Cameron?
09:09:03 <Taneb> Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard.
09:09:12 <pikhq_> Yup, he is a servant of Satan.
09:09:20 <kmc> wait you're saying there are right wing religious extremists outside the USA?
09:09:28 <kmc> this is highly at odds with what I have read on the Internet
09:09:33 <Taneb> Nah, just people who want to avoid taxes
09:10:02 <pikhq_> kmc: There *are*, they just seem to have somewhat less influence.
09:10:06 <pikhq_> Crazy is a human universal.
09:10:19 <kmc> there are many places where they have more influence
09:10:34 <pikhq_> There are many places where the crazies actually run the place.
09:11:14 <kmc> the thing about right-wing religious extremists in the USA is, you know which party they're going to vote for
09:11:19 <kmc> so that party doesn't actually have to give them anything
09:11:28 <pikhq_> Maybe the occasional bone.
09:11:40 <kmc> they bluster about social issues to get out the vote
09:11:57 <kmc> and some proportion of the party is composed of said extremists, and some of those people get elected
09:12:01 <kmc> but not that many really
09:13:26 <pikhq_> Not that the people they vote for are any *better*...
09:13:40 <pikhq_> The badness is just of a completely different sort.
09:14:16 <kmc> well i don't know
09:14:50 <kmc> i have a slight preference for a corrupt corporatist state over a theocracy
09:14:58 <kmc> neither is good
09:15:12 <kmc> this preference reflects my various forms of privilege
09:15:24 <pikhq_> Both are very, very low on my preference ranking, but corrupt corporatist state > theocracy.
09:16:27 <pikhq_> But, then, in a theocracy I'm liable to be dead.
09:16:30 <Taneb> The UK is technically sort-of a theocracy
09:16:39 <Taneb> But nobody actually cares
09:16:53 <Taneb> The head of state is directly appointed by good
09:17:02 <Taneb> And is the head of the Church of England
09:17:27 <pikhq_> kmc: Rule by divine right, the monarch is the head of the church, members of the church are *entitled* to positions in the legislature...
09:17:46 <kmc> yeah that last bit is dodgy as hell
09:18:18 <Taneb> The house of lords doesn't have any real power
09:19:15 <pikhq_> Up until quite recently, they were your supreme court as well.
09:19:27 <Taneb> Really? Didn't know that
09:19:41 <pikhq_> Yeah, the House of Lords was the court of last resort up until, what, 2008?
09:22:30 <pikhq_> Hmm. I suspect that that's where the Senate's role of trying impeachments comes from...
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09:24:15 <pikhq_> (the US Congress was designed with the *intent* of the House of Representatives being somewhat analogous to the House of Commons, and the Senate somewhat analogous to the House of Lords)
09:24:29 <Taneb> How did that end up?
09:24:59 <pikhq_> Probably the last blow in the setup was the establishment of direct election of Senators.
09:26:26 <pikhq_> (the original setup was that each state appointed Senators in a manner they saw fit, with convention being that the governor of the state would appoint them)
09:29:17 <kmc> i thought they were mainly elected by state legislatures
09:29:56 <kmc> "The Senate of the United States shall be composed of two Senators from each State, chosen by the Legislature thereof"
09:30:04 <pikhq_> Ah, perhaps I misremembered.
09:34:15 <kmc> amusingly enough, the current non-proportional structure of the Senate would be unconstitutional if it weren't explicitly in the Constitution
09:34:32 <kmc> the supreme court has ruled that the 14th Amendment forbids states and cities from having similar bodies
09:35:21 <kmc> also to change the composition of the Senate, you would arguably need *two* constitutional amendments
09:36:00 <kmc> because Article V (the article on amendments) explicitly forbids that change
09:37:07 <pikhq_> In practice, I suspect they'd somehow figure out a way to get that deemed "interstate commerce" so it could be a regular bill.
09:37:26 <kmc> no, i don't think that would fly
09:38:24 <pikhq_> But if a butterfly flapping its wings can cause rain in China, then surely the composition of the Senate effects interstate commerce, so therefore they have the power to regulate it.
09:38:54 <pikhq_> On a more serious note, yeaaah that clause would have to be a *lot* more abused than it is now for something like that to fly.
09:39:12 <kmc> i mean, that clause is all about the division of powers between state and federal legislatures
09:40:01 <kmc> what also sucks is that the Senate's rules of procedure have nearly as much influence on how law is made as the Constitution
09:40:43 <pikhq_> The infamous 'fillibuster' rules have a rather dramatic effect.
09:41:23 <kmc> that's a recent thing too
09:41:32 <kmc> i mean aiui filibuster was used pretty rarely before like 2006
09:41:38 <kmc> now it is the default and every bill needs 60 votes to pass
09:43:28 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cloture_Voting,_United_States_Senate,_1947_to_2008.svg
09:45:09 <pikhq_> And that's just the number of times the Senate actually attempted to stop a filibuster.
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09:47:59 <kmc> well, many of them are preemptive
09:48:32 <kmc> actual filibusters are still rare, the threat is just baked into how the body operates
09:49:04 <kmc> which is part of the problem — people would be less eager if they had to personally go up and talk for 15 hours!
09:51:43 <kmc> and i would hope that a filibuster would make the filibustering party look like childish obstructionists
09:52:05 <kmc> but i think a lot of the blame for problems in Washington gets accounted in a nonpartisan way
09:52:12 <kmc> Congress's approval ratings are far lower than either party
09:56:41 <pikhq_> What was it, like 8% approval?
09:58:03 <kmc> something like that
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10:16:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, is /r/conspiracy championing the cause of *Syria*?
10:17:41 <kmc> that's what they want you to think
10:17:57 <pikhq_> /r/conspiracy is actually a KGB conspiracy.
10:18:20 <kmc> let me guess, the US and Israel dislike Syria, therefore Syria must be good
10:18:22 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: You must admit it's an appropriate name.
10:18:27 <pikhq_> (this mirrors well-documented KGB conspiracies surrounding the JFK shooting)
10:18:43 <pikhq_> (... the KGB spread conspiracy theories about it. I shit you not.)
10:18:49 <Patashu> "<kmc> let me guess, the US and Israel dislike Syria, therefore Syria must be good" sounds like solid logic to me
10:19:54 <kmc> goatse is a propaganda hub
10:20:01 <Phantom_Hoover> "Precisely the reason I dont believe anything. Ever. There may not even be a syria for all I know
10:22:46 <kmc> mule meat contains chemicals!
10:23:44 <Phantom_Hoover> "If the alternative media on the Internet continues to grow and expose the secret working of the grand deceivers, i.e. the Wizard of Oz behind the curtain, the masses will find out the King is actually naked and the kings new clothes shtick was all a big con."
10:24:03 <Phantom_Hoover> If we hit that conspiracy bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate.
10:24:13 <kmc> zardoz speaks to you, his chosen ones
10:24:37 <kmc> ＴＨＥ ＧＵＮ ＩＳ ＧＯＯＤ
10:24:38 <shachaf> When I disposed of my television years ago, the last of my chemicals had to go with it.
10:24:43 <kmc> ＴＨＥ ＰＥＮＩＳ ＩＳ ＥＶＩＬ
10:24:53 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/vimgh/if_the_alternative_media_on_the_internet/
10:25:12 * shachaf now leads a 100% natural, chemical-free life.
10:25:40 <Phantom_Hoover> So what, is this part of a conspiracy to give away NWO trade secrets?
10:26:41 <kmc> i'm afraid this is going to devolve into trolling by proxy
10:27:01 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/vhzj0/a_friend_is_going_to_let_me_look_through_his/
10:27:33 <shachaf> kmc: My friend said trolling by proxy is good because it can inject outside opinions into echo chambers which don't usually get such opinions.
10:27:43 <shachaf> I don't really agree with him, but do you have any counterarguments to that?
10:28:10 <Patashu> what is 'trolling by proxy'
10:34:00 <kmc> "hi, my friend says Haskell gives you herpes and aids, i think this is wrong but pls provide a detailed rebuttal"
10:34:23 <kmc> produces similar results to someone coming in and saying haskell gives you herpaids
10:34:37 <kmc> worse, in that you can't make it go away by kickbanning someone
10:35:05 <kmc> even when nobody in the channel intends to troll, the result is the same as trolling
10:35:08 <shachaf> Patashu: It's far from the state of the art in trolling techniques.
10:35:14 <kmc> happens a lot when you're discussing Other People who are Wrong On The Internet
10:35:16 <Patashu> well I am not very good at trolling
10:35:17 <kmc> shachaf: what's the state of the art?
10:35:27 <shachaf> kmc: I don't think that's public information.
10:35:48 <shachaf> kmc: But in this case there's still responsibility: The "friend" said something inflammatory.
10:36:05 <shachaf> The ultimate trolling probably arises on its own, like a sort of meme.
10:36:07 <kmc> shachaf: well, in less hyperbolic cases, the friend is perhaps just ignorant
10:36:09 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, but in this case I'm not quoting them as things I want treated seriously and debunked, I'm quoting them because I and presumably everyone else finds them risible.
10:36:17 <shachaf> Things like "0.999... = 1?!", maybe.
10:36:29 <shachaf> Just think of the discussions that generates, even when everyone means well.
10:36:49 <shachaf> I guess it's not exactly a "technique".
10:37:04 <Phantom_Hoover> So basically politics and religion are the ultimate trolling technique?
10:37:34 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: There are a lot of trolls in politics and religion.
10:38:16 <shachaf> kmc: did u accuse me of being cheater :'(
10:38:36 <kmc> is cheater the state of the art in trolling
10:38:51 <kmc> well in that he can troll elliott and Phantom_Hoover without saying anything at all
10:38:52 <shachaf> He got banned from multiple channels.
10:39:05 <kmc> and cause them to abuse third parties
10:39:44 <shachaf> Wait, which "that" is that?
10:39:45 <kmc> not bitter, just amused and confused
10:40:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Take it up with ais if you think the ban was unjustified.
10:40:12 <kmc> i'm not saying he shouldn't be bant
10:40:17 <shachaf> Did he get banned in here?
10:40:24 <kmc> i just think it's insane how much abuse I got for daring to say "hi" to him
10:40:33 <kmc> it's the sort of thing you see in extremely brainwashed religious societies
10:40:41 <kmc> the unclean one must be shunned
10:41:14 <kmc> like, i can understand that he doesn't get along with this channel, but apparently the fact that I can get along with him in any context at all makes me a horrible human being
10:41:36 <kmc> i think anyone who can produce that kind of response
10:41:39 <kmc> is a pretty advanced troll
10:42:28 <shachaf> kmc gets along with everyone*
10:42:42 <kmc> zero or more copies of everyone
10:45:40 <Patashu> I feel I am missing out on something
10:45:48 <kmc> join #codez
10:46:06 <kmc> it's the channel he set up to talk to the people from #esoteric, #haskell-blah, and ##electronics who will still put up with him
10:46:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Longrunning troll who survived largely because for most of his time on the channel there were 3 ops none of whom actually used their powers.
10:49:18 <shachaf> So I'm in #codez but I still have cheater on /ignore
10:54:55 <kmc> i don't believe in /ignore
10:56:03 <shachaf> I didn't either, but then he decided to take a particular dislike to me for some reason.
10:56:45 <shachaf> There were other conversations in the channel so I decided it would be reasonable.
10:59:48 <kmc> the other day someone joined and asked about the most pythonic way to solve some problem
10:59:52 <kmc> (cause that's a thing that happens apparently)
11:00:05 <kmc> and cheater gave just about the most convoluted, un-pythonic solution you could reasonably pass off as serious code
11:02:22 <kmc> i don't know if he was trolling, or just felt obliged to give some answer (even a bad one) immediately
11:05:35 <oklopol> i still don't get what the cheater fuss was all about
11:09:04 -!- MDream has changed nick to MDude.
11:10:04 <oklopol> so this #codez, is it like esoteric but without all that annoying programming stuff
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12:22:52 <oklopol> actually it seems to be like esoteric but without all that annoying anything.
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15:33:55 <itidus21> possible candidate for worst wikipedia page ever: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bound_property
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15:35:42 <itidus21> an object lesson in how not to do a wikipedia article
15:37:49 <itidus21> maybe it's just me.. blood sugar could be low etc.
15:41:09 <olsner> itidus21: bad, but not bad enough
15:41:33 <olsner> not even interestingly bad, I think
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16:53:33 <oerjan> yay the housemates just moved out
16:53:47 * oerjan is hoping for at least some weeks of peace and quiet
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17:40:31 <Taneb> oerjan, followed by the person who comes to collect rent
17:42:09 <oerjan> nah, that's transferred automatically
17:45:06 <Lumpio-> wtf is the example on that wikipedia page about
17:45:25 <Taneb> Which wikipedia page?
17:46:16 <Lumpio-> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bound_property
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18:04:20 <ion> View to a Kill - Zorin's computer http://youtu.be/043WEs_6TAo
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19:09:47 <zzo38> What things need to be done to make a option of ITMCK to make the output be more compatible with certain players?
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21:46:34 <ion> http://machinegestalt.posterous.com/if-programming-languages-were-cars
21:48:40 <mroman> then all new languages would suck?
21:48:56 <kmc> if programming languages were cars then even more people would be killed by them
21:51:19 <kmc> don't even get me started
21:51:29 <kmc> cars ruined this country basically
21:52:08 <oklopol> i agree, those things are scary.
21:52:26 <oklopol> i don't get how people are afraid of parachute jumping but they routinely drive a car in fucking traffic
21:52:33 <pikhq_> Car companies buying and destroying all public transit way back when, y'mean?
21:52:54 <oklopol> but stating that new cars suck seems weird, at least new cars are way less ugly
21:53:38 <pikhq_> I mean, jeeze, turn of the century almost all cities ran on gigantic streetcar systems.
21:54:24 <kmc> that's one of the many ways cars ruined the country
21:54:55 <oklopol> "C: Still the best systems programming language 40 years later."
21:55:37 <kmc> it's only "the best" because it's barely good enough and so all attempts to replace it with something better have failed
21:55:54 <oklopol> well yes, but imagine my horror when i didn't notice the word "systems".
21:56:10 <pikhq_> Well, see, if it weren't for that cars would not be anywhere *near* as relevant. Before the streetcar systems were destroyed, cars were seen as luxuries...
21:56:21 <kmc> i think you have causality backwards there
21:56:32 <kmc> there was a conspiracy by car-related industries to destroy streetcars
21:56:33 <ion> Бойня кошек на Лестнице http://youtu.be/8FRBQOrvURA
21:56:36 <kmc> but it was only accelerating an existing trend
21:56:55 <kmc> with or without that, cars became much more affordable and people could have them
21:57:04 <ion> If bad programming languages killed more people perhaps programming languages wouldn’t suck as much.
21:57:06 <pikhq_> Anyways. Yes, I agree, cars are a *real friggin' problem*.
21:57:09 <mroman> oklopol: Yes @all new cars suck.
21:57:13 <kmc> which led to the building of massive road infrastructure coupled with the decline of rail infrastructure
21:57:14 <mroman> They look like shit, literally.
21:57:23 <kmc> which produced these horrid, unsustainable modes of living
21:57:42 <oklopol> new cars look modern and nice, old cars look ugly and boring.
21:57:45 <mroman> http://www.nfscars.net/forum/picture.php?albumid=201&pictureid=4092 <- that is a car.
21:58:00 <oklopol> that looks like a banana mated with a robot
21:58:03 <mroman> http://www.quaiswaseeq.com/top-5-muscle-cars-of-all-times/muscle_cars/1969-chevrolet-camaro-ss.jpg <- that is a car
21:58:04 <kmc> where you live in a McMansion in suburbia and the closest you have to a "town center" is a malignant tumor of big box stores, strip malls, and office parks
21:58:25 <mroman> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/73/Overhaulin_442.jpg <- that is a car
21:58:49 <Phantom_Hoover> <oklopol> new cars look modern and nice, old cars look ugly and boring.
21:59:14 <Phantom_Hoover> because there was that whole thing where angles came into fashion
21:59:25 <mroman> http://www.wallpapers-football.net/Other-wallpapers/car/car8.jpg <- looks stupid
21:59:30 <oklopol> mroman: in all seriousness, yeah those look okay. not as nice as new ones, but okay.
21:59:45 <pikhq_> kmc: Little boxes of ticky-tacky, little boxes all the same...
21:59:47 <mroman> http://pics.ricardostatic.ch/ImgUsers/EuroTax/p0502828.jpg <- looks like crap
21:59:48 <oklopol> the last one is obviously the prettiest
22:00:12 <oklopol> the last last one looks so sexy i would totally mate with it
22:00:19 <mroman> http://www.auto-bilder.org/autobilder/volvo-c30-3729.jpg <- ugly
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22:00:28 <kmc> tbh streetcars aren't that great
22:00:41 <kmc> they have some advantages over buses but it's not a huge difference imo
22:00:41 <oklopol> okay the last last last one is the super bestest.
22:00:44 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc is ok because he tends to have a fairly balanced perspective
22:01:09 <pikhq_> kmc: The advantage is they could've been built into a more robust transit system. If developed instead of destroyed.
22:01:18 <mroman> a subset of old cars :)
22:01:22 <oklopol> mroman: in all real seriousness, i don't give a shit, i wouldn't buy any of those
22:01:40 <kmc> pikhq_: by building new tunnels, you mean?
22:01:47 <mroman> the subset with edges and angles.
22:02:02 <Phantom_Hoover> also tbh aesthetics comes a long way after, for instance, crumple zones
22:02:12 <oklopol> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FRBQOrvURA&feature=youtu.be this one i would buy
22:02:16 <kmc> streetcar tunnels are kinda nice but I think proper grade-separated heavy rail rapid transit is much much better
22:02:31 <kmc> if you're going to the expense of new tunnels, maybe you should just build a new rapid transit system
22:02:38 <pikhq_> kmc: There's reason to *move* that way when not everyone has cars.
22:02:54 <kmc> and there have been a fair number of those constructed in post-WWII america
22:03:01 <kmc> not as many as there should be, but still
22:03:05 <kmc> more than new streetcar systems
22:03:18 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: sorry i have visual dyslexia and thought that was a video of a car.
22:03:28 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: trams and streetcars are the same thing
22:03:32 <kmc> en_US vs en_UK or something
22:03:37 <Phantom_Hoover> is that like where you confuse things based on whether theyre spelt similarly
22:03:52 <oklopol> i need to see a description in writing
22:03:55 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, oh right, for some reason i was thinking cable car (??)
22:04:07 <oklopol> to notice subtle differences in spelling
22:04:08 <pikhq_> Streetcars in modern use have little to no reason to be built further, yes. The *point* is that it's mass transit, and when everyone uses mass transit you have reason to do more mass transit.
22:04:16 <Phantom_Hoover> the reason i ask is because we have an infamously terrible tram system in edinburgh
22:04:41 <kmc> there's also the "aerial tram" which is kind of like an enclosed ski lift car
22:04:45 <kmc> hangs from a cable in the air
22:04:47 <pikhq_> Rather than, y'know. "Yeah, we put in a single line cause that's 'green', but really everyone has a car so who cares."
22:04:53 <kmc> there's one of these in NYC actually
22:05:21 <Phantom_Hoover> fun fact, detroit in HR does not resemble real detroit in any meaningful way
22:05:33 <oklopol> from tv shows, i've learned that americans only ride the bus if they are really poor
22:05:55 <oklopol> this never ceases to amaze me.
22:05:59 <kmc> except in new york city, maybe
22:06:06 <kmc> even there, you take the subway if at all possible
22:06:14 <pikhq_> oklopol: Yes. It's *severely* difficult to use the buses in most cities, and so it is extremely beneficial to get a car if at all possible.
22:06:21 <kmc> anyway this is why there is no political support for public transit
22:06:41 <Phantom_Hoover> oh yeah, that's the other reason the trams here are awful, we have a perfectly good bus system
22:06:55 <kmc> it's also part of the calculus on, should you build new transit systems in places with none, or should you improve transit in places with high transit ridership already
22:06:57 <pikhq_> oklopol: We're talking "add on an extra hour to your transit, at least".
22:08:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Or is that just because American cities are ridiculously sprawling.
22:08:08 <oklopol> i can't really imagine an enjoyable life where i frequently have to travel distances i can't easily walk.
22:08:16 <kmc> buses are infrequent and they don't go to exactly where you want to go
22:08:23 <kmc> so you might have to transfer, and wait for the next bus which is also late
22:08:30 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: Combination of American cities being ridiculously sprawling and buses being very infrequent and bus routes being sparse.
22:08:43 <kmc> buses are much more usable if you have a smartphone, because many cities have realtime online tracking of buses now
22:08:51 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, there's a road near my house which I swear has a bus stop every 50 metres.
22:09:23 <Phantom_Hoover> It's annoying if you're on the bus because you're constantly stopping because one person is at each stop.
22:09:44 <kmc> anyway it's obvious that buses can never be faster than driving
22:09:49 <mroman> We have roughly every km a bus stop.
22:10:00 <mroman> Which is how it should be :)
22:10:04 <kmc> that's why you need proper dedicated right-of-way rapid transit
22:10:38 <kmc> one of the dumb things in America is local zoning laws which prohibit dense development, mandate a certain amount of parking for businesses, etc
22:11:09 <fizzie> Buses are faster than driving here during rush hour, since the major roads have bus lanes. (Granted, that's not very often.)
22:11:10 <kmc> in the south San Francisco Bay Area, you have lots of wealth, and lots of people who would love to live in a real, dense city, but it's just illegal for them to make one
22:11:42 <fizzie> I guess they're not if you drive in the bus lanes too, but that's illeggul.
22:11:53 <pikhq_> Some cities get it stupider still... For instance, the city I'm in (Colorado Springs) has height limits on buildings.
22:12:26 <oklopol> kmc: do they keep some parts completely undeveloped and foresty, or just empty?
22:12:32 <pikhq_> IIRC, you can't go above 8 stories, period.
22:12:47 <oklopol> because the one reason i love about finland is that there are trees.
22:13:03 <oklopol> the rest of europe is just horrible
22:13:08 <Phantom_Hoover> <kmc> one of the dumb things in America is local zoning laws which prohibit dense development, mandate a certain amount of parking for businesses, etc
22:13:19 <pikhq_> Colorado Springs is thus even more sprawly than usual.
22:13:24 <oklopol> (well sweden is just a better finland ofc but i mean the southern countries)
22:13:29 <fizzie> Oh, and people do complain on pretty much all "tall building" projects here, on the grounds that it ruins the (pretty much flat) skyline.
22:14:36 <kmc> oklopol: there are many undeveloped forest or desert parts of the USA
22:14:41 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, that's pretty typical...
22:14:55 <oklopol> i pretty much prefer all countries in the scandinavia family over the rest of europe
22:15:36 <Phantom_Hoover> (The highest off the ground is IIRC also the oldest building in the city.)
22:15:38 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: US zoning laws typically mandate low-density development.
22:16:02 <kmc> if you built high density housing, dangerous minorities would move in
22:16:24 <oklopol> forest parts sound nice, you should keep it that way.
22:16:25 <kmc> rich white people left the cities in the 60's due to high crime
22:16:28 <pikhq_> And if you built shops without giant parking lots, then you couldn't get your land yacht there.
22:16:30 <oklopol> please tell my opinion to all americans
22:16:52 <kmc> and then they passed laws to prevent their new suburban areas from becoming like those cities, without regard to which properties of cities are good or bad
22:16:57 <pikhq_> oklopol: It would be very, very hard for us to *not* keep forests.
22:17:03 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, I'm not even sure how many surviving forests there are in the UK...
22:17:21 <kmc> Boston in particular has a lot of nice parks within or just outside the city
22:17:47 <pikhq_> Pretty sure we have multiple forests larger than the UK.
22:17:48 <Phantom_Hoover> I think there are bits of the Highlands which have gone mostly untouched, but south of that almost everywhere's cultivated to some extent.
22:17:52 <kmc> there are more than a dozen large, substantial parks i can bike to easily from my home
22:17:58 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: i saw some in scotland, but only on some sort of island. then again i guess forests are not scotland's thing.
22:18:16 <fizzie> Wolfram|Alpha is unable to tell me how many trees there are in Finland.
22:18:20 <kmc> NYC has a lot of parks too
22:19:05 <oklopol> kmc: are they full of murderers?
22:19:06 <kmc> some (like Central Park) are obsessively designed and sculpted, so they aren't really "nature", but still very very nice
22:19:11 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, well on the couple of trips I've had to the Highlands I've definitely visited forests.
22:19:20 <kmc> but even in Manhattan, there's Inwood Hill Park, which feels like being lost in the woods
22:19:42 <oklopol> i've only been to uk once and we didn't exactly try to seek forests
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22:19:57 <oklopol> so really i don't have any idea
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22:20:21 <oklopol> but let me tell you about this one time i went to paris and decided i'll just sleep in the forest.
22:20:21 <kmc> i think it's a property of the old cities in the east of the USA in general
22:20:29 <kmc> that they have lots of parks
22:20:36 <oklopol> i didn't sleep in the forest. there are none.
22:21:26 <oklopol> in retrospect i was pretty retarded
22:21:51 <oklopol> people told me there are no forests but i was like hey i don't mind walking a few kilometers.
22:22:44 <oklopol> it was also fun trying to get to the eiffel tower with a backpack, turns out they won't let you leave it anywhere. not even in the finnish embassy :(
22:22:58 <oklopol> i left it in a park i found about 4 km from the tower
22:23:38 <Phantom_Hoover> What's the world come to when embassies won't even give their citizens backpack storage.
22:23:50 <oklopol> that was the only place that really considered it
22:24:16 <oklopol> they all spoke finnish so they took my plight pretty seriously
22:24:34 <oklopol> they even called somewhere to check that there's no way
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22:24:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Are Finns compelled to take anything said in Finnish seriously.
22:25:33 <oklopol> you wouldn't understand, your language is a minority.
22:25:53 <itidus21> "your money.. it has all been lost" said in finnish :D
22:26:01 <olsner> I for one won't take anything said in Finnish seriously
22:26:47 <oklopol> olsner: go easy on finland i just praised yours :(
22:27:20 <olsner> what, end it? but hate is so fun!
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22:27:32 <pikhq_> olsner: Oh, come now, surely you can hate some other group.
22:27:40 <pikhq_> Like the poor sods in France!
22:27:44 <oklopol> fuck you olsner, if i ever meet you, i will chop off your head and feed it to a rabbit
22:27:44 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, see now you have learnt life's most valuable lesson:]
22:28:15 <itidus21> ive never been outside australia
22:28:27 <oklopol> i've never been outside the complement of australia
22:29:01 <oklopol> maybe this means me and itidus21 are part of the proof that the earth is hausdorff with the country topology
22:29:07 <itidus21> if one considers the earth as a big rock with water on it.. then this all sounds liess exciting
22:29:28 <pikhq_> Most rocks don't have magma centers.
22:29:55 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, wouldn't iti have to have never been outside the interior of Australia for that to work.
22:30:06 <oklopol> (i should probably know whether they do)
22:30:35 <itidus21> http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_4C_tSMqS810/Swyal4RdGAI/AAAAAAAAE_Y/Ev07Fu2dueo/s1600/simpsons,+vishnu,+hindu,+atheism,+cosmology.jpg
22:31:25 <olsner> oklopol: sorry for speaking evils about Finland, please don't kill me if we meet
22:31:41 <oklopol> olsner: i'm a very gentle killer
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22:32:13 <oklopol> olsner: alternatively we can have a beer and be best buds.
22:32:25 <itidus21> i have been to 2 australian states and 1 australian territory
22:33:10 <itidus21> and 32 super mario bros. levels
22:33:35 <oklopol> you should write a blog about your travels, i'd totally give it a read
22:33:38 <olsner> oklopol: "gently" chopping someone's head off sounds difficult, you must be skilled
22:34:05 <itidus21> oklopol: well in a single trip we travelled through all 3
22:34:18 <itidus21> when my dad did some work in canberra for a week or 2
22:34:18 <oklopol> itidus21: this is irc, you can't blog here
22:34:51 <olsner> itidus21: have you visited any of the cantons in austria as well?
22:35:08 <oklopol> like an asian strawberry prostitute
22:35:30 <itidus21> i have visited 5 cantons in austria
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22:37:24 <oklopol> sudden craving of strawberries
22:38:59 <itidus21> i appreciate that the poor plants go through hell over it though
22:39:12 <olsner> no strawberries in austria?
22:39:26 <oklopol> and very few of them will actually let you have sex with them.
22:39:35 <itidus21> like, "here.. i consumed most of my lifes energy making these, go ahead, take them.... what do i care'
22:39:47 <oklopol> although i did mean a craving for eating them
22:40:10 <olsner> I think most berries are made to be eaten
22:40:15 <oklopol> i will never eat strawberries again
22:40:23 <olsner> that's how the plants distribute their seeds, given that they don't walk
22:40:37 <itidus21> berries are unhappy if they are not eaten
22:40:49 <oklopol> so can i eat them without being evil?
22:40:52 <itidus21> they will just fall to the ground and rot
22:41:55 <itidus21> ... infact i think strawberries want to make use of your shit as fertilizer or something
22:43:01 <itidus21> one can see perhaps why animals are so picky about where they do their doodoo
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22:43:31 <oklopol> because they want to fertilize only the sexiest strawberries?
22:43:45 <itidus21> well it's a great responsibility
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22:44:00 <itidus21> you can't just eat seeds and deposit them at random
22:44:38 <olsner> I think animals get picky if they have somewhat fixed nesting places where they benefit from not rolling in shit, but otherwise aren't picky at all, in general
22:44:48 <oklopol> yeah there's child support and shit to think about
22:45:11 <olsner> strawberries don't ask for child support
22:45:18 <olsner> I think we haven't told them they can, or something
22:45:30 <olsner> somewhat unfair, but economical
22:45:54 <oklopol> i'm sure they'd have a use for money
22:45:56 <olsner> would they care if they knew? I think they ought to know, so they can decide whether to care
22:46:03 <itidus21> plants are used to being slaves
22:46:17 <oklopol> so were black people and women
22:47:16 <olsner> itidus21: with dismembered and squashed strawberries on top?
22:48:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Why do keys remain in your inventory until you use them? What if you could actually misplace them? or you unknowingly dropped one?"
22:48:12 <Phantom_Hoover> NO THAT IS NOT SOMETHING YOU SHOULD BRING UP EVEN AS A JOKE
22:48:28 <olsner> why is that too far? sounds neatly realistic
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22:48:48 <olsner> there can be actual holes in pants, for example
22:49:16 <kmc> that's just what i always wanted, a losing-your-keys simulator
22:49:38 <Phantom_Hoover> "How about an escort mission where YOU play as the escort for a horrible agent. Give them a mental breakdown by repeatably getting in the way"
22:49:38 <oklopol> i love losing my keys, it's these little things that make days magical.
22:49:40 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: I assume that you are talking about some game you play and therefore care about not being able to lose your keys in?
22:49:42 <oklopol> unfortunately i never do :(
22:49:58 <oklopol> but luckily i fuck up every other thing
22:50:00 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, yes by which i mean literally any game with keys
22:50:34 <olsner> btw, one of the halo games worked well as a "lost in empty space station" simulator
22:51:16 <olsner> "oh, did you think this was a running-around-and-shooting game? nope, it's just a maze!"
22:51:39 <olsner> haven't played system shock, so I wouldn't know
22:51:49 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, oh man you clearly never played the second-last level of Halo 3
22:52:13 <olsner> I have only played one of them and it was 10 years ago
22:52:40 <Phantom_Hoover> "OK so you run around and shoot people, except none of them have ammo, the environment is a bunch of boring meat corridors and once you think you've reached the end you have to turn back around and do it all over again, backwards!"
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22:54:24 <oklopol> none of them have ammo? oh god you don't have to shoot civilians do you? how twisted, i'm sure most gamers would stop in horror.
22:54:47 <kmc> system shock 2 is a great game
22:55:57 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, I haven't played it, I just know there's a space station (OK spaceship, same difference) involved.
22:56:20 <kmc> a few spaceships actually
22:56:23 <oklopol> and every time you shoot a civilian, you are shown a clip of their family crying
22:56:31 <oklopol> kind of like in that austin powers movie or what was it
22:57:01 <oklopol> no, but i almost took part in it
22:58:01 <Phantom_Hoover> "Peter Molydeux, the man, the mystery, the inspiration for the recent MolyJam game jam that attracted more than 1,000 people to more than 30 locations worldwide."
22:59:20 <oklopol> i think there was a location at our university. or something.
22:59:36 <zzo38> Some people say the 7xxx version numbering scheme for .IT files is bad idea http://wiki.openmpt.org/Talk:Development:_Formats/IT
22:59:50 <Phantom_Hoover> i presume oko would split himself evenly across all venues
23:00:05 <oklopol> otherwise it would be just unfair.
23:00:45 <Phantom_Hoover> would you doing it according to continuous chess principles
23:01:06 <oklopol> i would totally being do it that ways.
23:01:35 <oklopol> did you say doing because it's the continuous form
23:02:49 <oklopol> from now on i shall call you the high priest of continuous chessism.
23:03:27 <olsner> Given a solid oklo in 3‑dimensional space, there exists a decomposition of the oklo into a finite number of non-overlapping pieces (i.e. subsets), which can then be put back together in a different way to yield two identical copies of the original oklo.
23:03:50 <Phantom_Hoover> in the afterlife you need to divide yourself between heaven and hell such that your centre of mass lies in limbo
23:03:54 <oklopol> thus solving the molydeux unfairness problem
23:04:23 <oklopol> that was to olsner, although probably being in limbo solves all problems
23:04:47 <olsner> no, it creates all problems, but if you reverse time that's probably equivalent
23:05:51 <oklopol> i hear the universe is reversible.
23:06:51 <oklopol> unfortunately, reversible 3d CA do not have a computable upperbound for the radius of the inverse CA :(
23:07:09 <oklopol> that's why time travel is hard
23:07:50 <olsner> that and the lack of working time machines
23:08:17 <oklopol> erm that's why there's a lack
23:09:02 <itidus21> i would like to see a game which implemented that tarski banach thing
23:09:41 <oklopol> can you elaborate on implement
23:10:51 <oklopol> iti went to write a constructive proof.
23:11:02 <oklopol> well it was nice knowing you.
23:13:35 <itidus21> ok what i had in mind is that it is a game where you can somehow cut objects up, and reconstruct them, where the game simulates nonmeasurable sets somehow
23:13:55 <zzo38> Does afterlife have a center of mass?
23:13:56 <itidus21> whatever these nonmeasurable sets are
23:15:01 <oklopol> so like you have 5 question marks that you can move around
23:16:16 <itidus21> it really surprises me that it only works in 3d
23:16:52 <oklopol> you can do things that are "against geometric intuition" in any dimension though.
23:17:24 <oklopol> just not that particular thing i guess
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23:19:02 <Phantom_Hoover> itidus21, the gist of it is that it's because if you do two rotations in succession in 2D they'll be the same as if they were in the opposite order, but the same is not true in 3D.
23:19:33 <oklopol> ooh ooh free group free group NONAMENABLE GROUP OF ROTATIONS
23:20:13 <Phantom_Hoover> yes oko the reason i was avoiding mentioning those words is because iti is now going to look them up and confuse himself horribly
23:20:41 <oklopol> so are you in a math university yet
23:20:46 <itidus21> so 2d rotations are .. c-something
23:21:16 <Phantom_Hoover> now i'm waiting to see if i messed up the "you want to do maths with us hahaha fuck off" test i had to sit
23:21:17 <oklopol> why not, you already know all the right words :/
23:21:55 <oklopol> i was actually just proctoring that sorta thing
23:22:06 <oklopol> and laughing at people's answers
23:22:30 <oklopol> iti, yes, commutative means ab = ba
23:23:05 <itidus21> i am getting better at this stuff.. but when? well thats more complicated
23:23:08 <oklopol> and 2d rotations form a commutative group with respect to their natural composition, which is "first rotate like this, then rotate like this"
23:23:53 <itidus21> certain things get in the way of learning
23:23:59 <oklopol> identity being "don't rotate at all" and inversion being, bare with me this gets complicated, "rotate in the other direction".
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23:24:16 <itidus21> and when those things go away, learning can proceed
23:25:06 <Phantom_Hoover> also there's associativity but it's trivially obvious when you explain it like that
23:25:50 <oklopol> well let's just leave it like that
23:26:14 <itidus21> so if you rotated 5 degrees then -2 degrees.. for a total rotation of 3 degrees.. would the inverse be -3 degrees?
23:27:16 <oklopol> yeah so basically 2d rotations are just numbers modulo 2pi, or 360 if you prefer
23:27:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Meanwhile, in 3D, if you rotate an object 90 degrees around the x axis then 90 degrees around the y axis you get a different overall transformation to rotating by the y axis and then x.
23:27:54 <itidus21> yup.. 1 circle mapped onto some unit
23:27:55 <oklopol> which makes it even more obvious that they are commutative
23:28:36 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: sooo you start next fall?
23:28:48 <itidus21> but suppose you had a unit which was 1 = 720 degrees. i suppose nothing exciting would come of it
23:28:51 <oklopol> assuming you aren't way stupider than you look
23:30:56 <oklopol> itidus21: i'm not touching that one due to having a hunch you could connect it to some of the pictures in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riemann_surface
23:30:57 <Patashu> has anyone ever actually plaed continuous chess?
23:31:02 <Patashu> it looks like a buff to bishops and a nerf to knights
23:31:12 <oklopol> Patashu: i think i let ph win me in it once
23:31:38 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, no, I let you amend the rules so you captured the closure of your piece.
23:32:17 <oklopol> right, but we then played again
23:32:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Patashu, hmm, I thought knights would be overpowered due to them being able to move through other piece.
23:33:00 <itidus21> log z looks like a water slide
23:33:06 <Patashu> I am a continuous chess armchair theorist
23:33:22 <Phantom_Hoover> So you can basically bump a fairly small amount of knight into the enemy's queen on the first move, making the queen totally useless for capturing.
23:34:34 <oklopol> okay i have to go, i have important work to do tomorrow
23:34:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, not totally, but unable to checkmate of her own accord.
23:35:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Although considering that determining checkmate is everything-hard that's not a massive disadvantage.
23:35:38 <itidus21> i don't want to keep oko about, but the rest of you can hear this
23:35:42 <oklopol> btw your last statement reminded me of http://arxiv.org/abs/1201.5597
23:36:00 <oklopol> itidus21: what you have a problem with me????
23:36:12 <itidus21> no you need to go for important work
23:36:24 <oklopol> oh right, it is indeed important
23:37:06 <itidus21> so i have always (not always) thought of chess as a CA
23:37:14 <itidus21> but i guess part of it didn't make sense
23:37:47 <ion> I’m impressed by how easy it was to create a new LXC container. apt-get install lxc && lxc-create -t ubuntu -n foo && lxc-start -n foo, done.
23:37:53 <itidus21> but just now it occurs to me that what a board game does different than a typical CA is it makes exactly 1 change per iteration
23:38:53 <itidus21> well you could make it deterministic, like a "film"
23:39:14 <itidus21> and you could make the neighbourhood the entire board
23:39:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Nondeterministic CAs are perfectly cromulent, they just aren't used as much.
23:40:14 <oklopol> there's a decent amount of research on those
23:40:33 <itidus21> ^i don't want to keep oko about, but the rest of you can hear this
23:40:34 <oklopol> are you seriously discussing CA just when i'm trying to leave
23:40:42 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: well i suppose not.
23:40:51 <oklopol> the most famous big CA theorem is for nondeterministic CA
23:40:58 <itidus21> i was well aware of this problem oklopol
23:41:26 <Phantom_Hoover> well we would not want such a thought lost to the world
23:42:31 <oklopol> http://arxiv.org/pdf/math/0003117v1.pdf this little thing
23:42:48 <itidus21> anyway you hinted that tomorrow isn't important
23:43:19 <oklopol> well, my colleagues are back from uk so i can tell my coauthor about my results from this week.
23:43:28 <itidus21> hmm.. the thing about man discovering fire is that he already knew what fire was
23:43:48 <oklopol> although i will prolly publish them myself since i basically finished the article already
23:43:49 <itidus21> so it was like.. hmm my whole life i have seen fires.. how do i make one?
23:44:18 <itidus21> but for us modern humans.. we are not readily exposed to things we can't reproduce
23:44:22 <oklopol> buy a lighter and improve on it
23:44:56 <oklopol> let my just quickly reproduce this computer of mine.
23:45:31 <itidus21> it must have been awe inspiring to not know any means to create fire
23:46:14 <oklopol> yeah kind of like last week it was inspiring that no one basically had any idea what kind of subshifts can be the sets of surjective sequences of nonuniform bounded radius CA
23:46:27 <oklopol> and then some genius proved that at least every SFT is
23:47:01 <oklopol> i wish i could shake his right hand with my right hand, but that'll never happen :(
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23:47:42 <itidus21> as far as what "could" happen... you may end up even as neighbours one day
23:47:54 <oklopol> well we kind of are neighbors
23:48:36 <itidus21> those are non-trivial obstacles
23:48:57 <Vorpal> <itidus21> so it was like.. hmm my whole life i have seen fires.. how do i make one? <-- uh? How old were you then?
23:49:04 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: are you trying to make me be even less subtle and say "no it was me who proved it"?
23:49:18 <oklopol> because that'll never happen.
23:49:40 <itidus21> wiki calls it "almost certainly won't happen"
23:50:16 <Phantom_Hoover> It seems strange to try to make someone say something that's not true.
23:51:39 <itidus21> you just need to use another form of the verb shake!
23:52:11 <oklopol> could you show me this woman, my girlfriend is a lowly statistician :(
23:52:20 <itidus21> transitive verb vs intransitive verb
23:52:55 <oklopol> well i can do the standard english construction
23:53:26 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, well I mean if you'd go out with a statistician I'm not sure you'd be attracted to a woman who can do real maths.
23:53:28 <itidus21> the context suggested a transitive verb
23:53:42 <itidus21> but if you meant an intransitive verb then you could shake his right hand
23:54:18 <oklopol> i have never dated a mathematician, have always wanted to try but they are hard to find.
23:55:09 <oklopol> i only learn about her condition after we'd signed the going out agreement.
23:57:16 <Phantom_Hoover> See that's why you have to be open about that kind of thing.
23:57:26 <oklopol> when i told her about CA and gave a specific one, she ran a few iterations of it on paper. god that was sexy.
23:59:24 <oklopol> okay silence, my cue to leave
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00:58:50 <kmc> apparently in D&D 5E, the square root of 2 is now 1
01:02:02 <zzo38> Well, I don't like 4E and 5E. I play 3.5E but I prefer to make up the Icosahedral RPG instead, which has many differences and some similarities too.
01:05:16 <pikhq_> kmc: Not that the rules for diagonal movement have ever made much sense.
01:05:48 <zzo38> gopher://zzo38computer.cjb.net:70/0phlog*c_dnd.icosahedral-rpg-i A round is grouped into six segments (although spells may locally adjust the rules of the game temporarily), there is partial ordering on multimanas, it never uses a grid with movable figures on it, etc
01:10:24 <zzo38> I don't know maybe some things you prefer and others you dislike, but, whatever it is
01:17:06 <kmc> i am shocked, shocked to find out that zzo38 prefers an obscure RPG which is played over Gopher
01:18:37 <zzo38> It is not played over Gopher! It is not played by computer at all.
01:21:14 <zzo38> Here is a part of the rules I have typed: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/icosahedral/icoruma/ (Some day I may rewrite Icoruma in C or Haskell instead of PHP; I may also rewrite the TeX macro files or perhaps do typesetting directly with Haskell (using the "dvi-processing" package).)
01:21:43 <zzo38> Who told you the game was played by computer?
01:24:25 <kmc> we're best buddies
01:24:30 <kmc> she tells me everything
01:25:22 <zzo38> Well, it is wrong. Tell Freenode or whoever made up a channel that includes a message on ChanServ tell you that, that it is wrong.
01:27:27 <shachaf> I was surprised at all the "clichés" in Casablanca that were actually introduced there.
01:27:44 <kmc> sounds like tolkien
01:27:48 <kmc> which clichés?
01:28:04 <shachaf> Well, perhaps not clichés.
01:28:13 <shachaf> Things like "i am shocked, shocked"
01:28:29 <shachaf> A lot of phrases I recognized but didn't think about.
01:30:57 <zzo38> However I have not played Icosahedral RPG because not even completed enough rules. So I play D&D 3.5E without miniature figures or computer, but I use computer to record the character sheets and story text. I made up my character's name using a program I have written on TI-92 calculator, it came up "Iuckqlwviv Kjugobe"
01:32:53 <zzo38> After I write enough rules, I want Wizards of the Coast to publish the same rules under their own name such as "Advanced Version Dungeons&Dragons 7.4" or something while not messing up the license or anything else like that, but they can keep the money, and I do not require attribution under any use of this system.
01:38:27 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/recording/level20.tex (the include file is in the same directory)
01:40:02 <zzo38> Some of the campaign rules which are standard in Icosahedral RPG, I use in D&D 3.5e as well such as the "penalized resurrection" rule and the "superstitious alignments" rule.
01:40:29 <kmc> how do you decide which files to serve via http vs gopher
01:42:09 <zzo38> I did not always have a gopher service available, so any file that was HTTP is still there except the root page of HTTP, which is now empty. Nevertheless all the files are meant for direct download other than directory listings in HTTP and menus in gopher.
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01:43:36 <zzo38> But still I am using Apache for HTTP so it does support headerless HTTP properly as well, so both the gopher and HTTP files can be easily copied using netcat.
01:43:53 <zzo38> (If you don't have netcat, your computer is no good.)
01:58:59 <kmc> i will write and compile a custom C program using Berkeley sockets for each file i wish to download from you
02:04:57 <ion> I will implement a sockets library for each file i wish to download from zzo38.
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03:24:11 <zzo38> ion: You need a separate library for each file? Netcat should be good enough, but you can do that if you want to
03:25:21 <zzo38> Better would be just write one program that can work with any file
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06:46:07 <oklopol> zzo38: you don't want money?
06:47:42 <zzo38> oklopol: For what? If I sell something, then yes I would like to get paid. But at this time I am not selling anything.
06:47:43 <itidus21> i'm kind of ambivalent about money
06:48:23 <itidus21> i'm waiting to die in an accident so i can say to myself.. wheres your money now?
06:48:43 <zzo38> How can you say anything to yourself if you are dead?
06:49:48 <Vorpal> huh, there are normalization forms for unicode...
06:50:05 <itidus21> the trouble is that until you die, money saves you from pain
06:50:51 <itidus21> it puts food in your stomach.. it gets your tooth ache healed.. it gives you a warm bed
06:51:13 <oklopol> right so nothing matters because life is finite
06:51:34 <oklopol> maybe you should try religion
06:51:37 <itidus21> well everyone is systematically cut-throat about money
06:52:05 <itidus21> theres no room to really relax in society
06:52:11 <oklopol> an irrational solution to an irrational problem
06:52:28 <oklopol> then again i don't have much money.
06:52:38 <Vorpal> well, nobody proved that reincarnation doesn't happen. Nor did anybody prove that it does happen.
06:52:44 <zzo38> If there is some religion you like, and/or have your own ideas about religious stuff and philosophy
06:52:48 <Vorpal> so I guess religion might be worth a try?
06:53:15 <oklopol> no that's not an acceptable reason
06:54:06 <zzo38> I agree that is not an acceptable reason.
06:54:08 <oklopol> zzo38: non-physical things shouldn't be paid for?
06:54:10 <Vorpal> anyway, I would like some serious research to be done on topics like reincarnation and out of body experience. From what I understand there is a lack of credible research on those topics.
06:54:42 <oklopol> Vorpal: there's lack of credible research that confirms that it works
06:54:48 <itidus21> oklopol: i don't like the actuality of dealing with other humans... they're always infinitely worse than expected
06:55:02 <Vorpal> oklopol, I don't really know of any research debunking it either though
06:55:07 <oklopol> no you're mistaken humans are nice guys
06:55:27 <zzo38> Humans are not always nice guys.
06:56:11 <itidus21> oklopol: deep down they are nice, but the necessities of life seems to draw out daily acidity
06:56:12 <Vorpal> oklopol, besides I have memories of out of body experiences from when I was young. Like seeing myself from outside when I was like 4 years old (and not in a mirror, it was from above and behind me).
06:56:15 <zzo38> I don't think so. Unless, you mean a different threshold.
06:56:51 <oklopol> i had this dream that i was flying the other night
06:56:57 <Vorpal> oklopol, indeed, but how can those memories arise? Do out of body experiences exist? If not how can it be explained
06:57:12 <zzo38> How many people have dream of flying? I don't.
06:57:27 <oklopol> they can be explained by the fact a healthy human brain can show itself pretty much anything.
06:57:49 <itidus21> oklopol: well theres some ads on tv in australia which demonstrate that bosses will regularly ask employees to do dangerous things
06:58:13 <oklopol> does that make them bad guys
06:58:24 <oklopol> they're just killing for money
06:58:26 <itidus21> and, there was someone on some morning show once talking about how _in reality_ people will often do what their boss tells them regardless of how dangerous it is
06:58:27 <zzo38> But it depends some things
06:58:52 <itidus21> and, [i can extend this by saying] we cover this little fact up by calling it choice
06:58:53 <oklopol> it's normal to kill for money, that means the society is bad for enabling you to benefit from that and not punishing you.
06:59:10 <oklopol> also i'm not being very serious.
06:59:12 <itidus21> so long as we call it choice then it's ok
06:59:27 <Vorpal> oklopol, true, but then again I have been told by my parents that the situation I remember from an out of body perspective happened (I had fallen down some stairs and my parents were checking me for any bruises, and I remember observing that from above and behind)
06:59:40 <itidus21> whether it's your choice to join the military depends on who is asking :P
06:59:44 <Vorpal> so possibly a dream, but then maybe not?
07:00:18 <itidus21> i mean like, if they conscript you and draft you then locally they're sure to say it's not a choice
07:00:28 <itidus21> but the people you are invading are sure to say it is your choice
07:00:39 <oklopol> erm, you don't have to dream to show yourself lies.
07:01:16 <itidus21> calling something a choice in this sense is about attributing responsibility to the individual
07:02:23 <itidus21> so, i don't think people are assholes by choice anyway.. i think it's at least as much to do with circumstances as it is to do with choice
07:02:50 <itidus21> but i want to open some leeway to change that view another time :D
07:03:35 <itidus21> i forget why i started up on this
07:03:46 <oklopol> i don't even remember where we are
07:04:23 <itidus21> applying what i just said to real life can be ultra-controversial though
07:04:38 <oklopol> Vorpal: i have had out-of-body experiences too
07:05:32 <itidus21> i have a set of delusions which revolve around generalizing that people are assholes
07:06:07 <oklopol> i seem to have an infinite supply of trust in people's goodness
07:06:14 <Vorpal> oklopol, right, and they might be lies made up by your brain, but then again there might be something more to it.
07:06:26 <Vorpal> and as far as I know there hasn't been much research on that topic
07:06:29 <oklopol> Vorpal: there isn't though.
07:06:37 <Vorpal> oklopol, how do you know?
07:07:25 <itidus21> the dream i hate the most is being back at work
07:07:27 <oklopol> everyone has had an out-of-body experience, but no one has ever, even as a party trick afaik, used that to see things beyond his actual vision.
07:08:19 <itidus21> oklopol: but this quantum stuff is set to change the world right?
07:08:35 <itidus21> ^quantum stuff being all things related to quantum mechanics
07:09:03 <oklopol> i don't care about quantum stuff, my computer is fast enough
07:09:33 <Vorpal> oklopol, hm I have distinct memories of that in my case. Seeing some medical supplies on top of a shelf near the ceiling that I couldn't possibly have seen at that age. Though I didn't think of verifying it when I was 4, so, who knows...
07:10:11 <oklopol> yeah, perhaps no one ever happened to verify one of these things.
07:10:39 <oklopol> there are many other ridiculous religious beliefs that there's plenty of "proof" for.
07:10:50 <itidus21> my "event" was when i had a dream about a swarm of bees
07:10:51 <oklopol> why are you so hung up on this one
07:10:53 <Vorpal> That is why there should be some actual research on the topic.
07:11:03 <zzo38> You don't care about quantum stuff, due to the speed of your computer? It is not only about speed.
07:11:04 <itidus21> the next day, at the carwash... we got hit by a swarm of bees
07:11:05 <oklopol> perhaps this was way vivider than i could ever imagine
07:11:16 <itidus21> like, several minutes worth of bees flying past
07:11:19 <Vorpal> oklopol, because you are dismissing it out of hand?
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07:12:47 <oklopol> Vorpal: yes, because i believe in physics, not in a universe built on top of human life stories. out of body experiences have no evolutionary purpose, and no physical explanation. they are just an interesting misinterpretation of your own memory.
07:15:42 <oklopol> as a psychological question it is of course very interesting.
07:16:15 <Vorpal> What you just said /sounds/ like you believe we basically know everything there is to know about physics at this point. We obviously don't though: we are missing an established quantum gravity theory for example. Sure there are some candidates (such as string theory) but there hasn't been any good experimental evidence of that one yet.
07:16:32 <fizzie> Given how much attention the psychological side of it has gotten -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out_of_body#Studies_of_OBEs -- it's a bit strange they haven't happened to notice the paranormal properties of it.
07:16:43 <zzo38> Yes that is likely that they are based on misunderstanding your own memory. Possibly also remember dream sometimes, can involve like that, is one possible reason to call them precognitive.
07:17:13 <oklopol> well that's not what i believe
07:17:31 <zzo38> Yes also physics is good but incomplete and I think could never be complete but we should try anyways
07:18:12 <oklopol> how much we know about physics is completely irrelevant, it is still clear there's no mechanism to do magic simple enough that it would have evolved in humans WITH NO FUCKING PURPOSE.
07:18:14 <zzo38> It is also possible that body experience, dream, etc, may be based on multiple factors there are many things we do not know so we cannot discount all of the possibilities!
07:18:21 <itidus21> oklopol: well when people try to systematically explain the unknown then things go wrong
07:18:40 <fizzie> oklopol: I have an otherwise sensible-seeming friend who's a God-believer because of a *really* lame miracle happened. (It was something on the level of thinking about something and then that thing happened the very next day.)
07:18:54 <fizzie> s/friend/acquaintance/
07:19:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm there are those that claim they can create an out-of-body experience by their own will. An obvious test would be to place some items in a locked room next to a person who claims to have this ability and ask them to describe those items. Has anyone done such a study?
07:19:16 <itidus21> like the world at large is all too happy to sell hope in the form of astrological readings
07:19:39 <fizzie> Vorpal: "Remote viewing" has been tested quite many times, yes.
07:19:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, and the result was?
07:19:57 <fizzie> It didn't work. Wouldn't you have heard about it if it did?
07:20:05 <oklopol> "well when people try to systematically explain the unknown then things go wrong" do you mean science|
07:20:10 <oklopol> the only study of the unknown
07:20:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, right, that seems conclusive enough.
07:20:12 <fizzie> Also by US government-funded research, the sensibility of which people have been miffed about, I think.
07:20:25 <itidus21> i can see through it though.. i think what happens is that once someone realises that astrology is lies.. it occurs to them "this is a good way to lie"
07:20:36 <itidus21> and so they go on propagating the lie
07:20:43 <fizzie> See the "History" chapter of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remote_viewing
07:20:54 <oklopol> Vorpal: you really needed that o_O
07:20:59 <fizzie> I seem to recall Randi has tested a couple, too.
07:21:28 <itidus21> or it could be a ponzi hierarchy of lies
07:21:36 <Vorpal> oklopol, I don't get your point?
07:21:43 <oklopol> it's that the only reason these things are tested is that stupid people would finally shut up.
07:21:58 <itidus21> believing that the person with more mysterious views than yours holds the secret
07:22:05 <oklopol> wow my tolerance of religion is low today
07:22:52 <Vorpal> oklopol, I would have needed a test to believe it was true as well.
07:22:55 <Vorpal> if that is what you mean
07:22:58 <pikhq_> Vorpal: One needn't understand physics perfectly to believe the following: Since the beginning, not one unusual thing has happened. :)
07:23:21 <kmc> some people can't be convinced by any amount of evidence
07:23:21 <zzo38> To do science properly, you also have to properly control the experiments too. There is some scholarly reports about quantum psychic experiment too. Assuming (for the argument) that this experiment is done correctly, I would think it involves relativity too as well as the relation between quantum and relativity.
07:23:52 <zzo38> And what do you consider "unusual"?
07:24:02 <oklopol> Vorpal: of course you would need a test for that, it would be a million times more surprising than the earth suddenly exploding.
07:24:08 <itidus21> i find it extraordinarily difficult to explain just what it is i believe
07:24:14 <Vorpal> kmc, I believe you refer to fundamentalists.
07:24:48 <itidus21> i believe that, a point of view can be a thing of beauty
07:25:30 <itidus21> an artifact of the human mind, just as the footprint is an artifact of the foot
07:25:50 <Vorpal> Of course fundamentalism happens on all sides. Just look at how hard it was to convince geologists about plate tectonics back when that was the new theory.
07:26:14 <zzo38> How likely is it for the Earth to explode? Scientific evidence shows many things such as physics, and that psychics are fake and that the Sun is really large and so on. Science is the best we have, but, science is not perfect!! Mathematics is perfect!
07:26:31 <itidus21> that in and of itself, the actuality of a point of view existing in a consciousness
07:26:35 <pikhq_> itidus21: Some points of view do not correspond to the state of reality, as far as we can tell what it is. This, IMO, is a problem.
07:26:53 <itidus21> but why does it have to correspond? >:)
07:27:12 <itidus21> suppose we alleviate the constraint that it has to correspond
07:27:38 <itidus21> with this line of thought you gain insight into my insanity
07:27:39 <pikhq_> itidus21: If it does not correspond, then your actions have very *unintended* consequences.
07:27:47 <zzo38> Sometimes there can be multiple points of view that still work, and sometimes you cannot really say one is correct or incorrect, and in some cases it isn't, so that it is.
07:27:58 <pikhq_> People are bad enough decision makers without the crippling that is points of view that don't work.
07:28:23 <itidus21> what if one ceases to make decisions while maintaining a view which doesn't correspond with reality?
07:28:37 <pikhq_> Then I shall call you a rock.
07:28:39 <zzo38> Sometimes some point of view fail to work.
07:28:48 <zzo38> Sometimes some point of view is simply wrong.
07:29:15 <itidus21> pikhq_: well yeah.. an oracle is needed at such times
07:29:27 <zzo38> Sometimes it is really a matter of opinion or a matter of what else corresponds with your frame of reference.
07:29:51 <Vorpal> itidus21, that is a decision you just made (to not make any further decision). So in order to not make decisions while maintaining that point of view you have to decide to maintain that point of view after you decided to stop making decisions which sounds like a contradiction to me.
07:30:23 <pikhq_> True, there is also the fact that deciding to not make decisions is itself a decision.
07:30:36 <itidus21> in this line of thought, sometimes i don't know whether it is best to say "hi" or "hey" or "hello"
07:30:37 <Vorpal> pikhq_, which is what I just said
07:30:44 <pikhq_> Vorpal: I was merely agreeing.
07:31:02 <Vorpal> I thought perhaps my wording was confusing. (I think it was actually)
07:31:05 <itidus21> so one can consult an oracle to make such a decision
07:32:31 <itidus21> pikhq_: but honestly, i am trying to learn to think properly
07:33:05 <Vorpal> pikhq_, I guess the situation can be resolved by deciding to maintain that view /and/ deciding to stop making further decisions at the same time, possibly on the lines of "I will maintain view X and stop making decisions after a point 1 minute into the future"
07:33:05 <itidus21> but i don't want to give up my creative zest either.. best of both worlds is ideal
07:33:32 <pikhq_> Vorpal: I think we might call such a person a 'Boddhisatva'.
07:33:45 <Vorpal> pikhq_, now you lost me
07:34:03 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Mostly irrelevant joke that might not actually make sense.
07:34:13 <Vorpal> yeah how is that Buddhist terminology related to this?
07:34:28 <pikhq_> zzo38: Presumably 'in a way that produces points of view that correspond to reality as best as can be'
07:34:31 <itidus21> Vorpal: well this is straying into buddhist territory probably
07:35:48 <Vorpal> At least that religion is one of the less insane ones. I don't know of any other religion that encourages critical thinking for a start.
07:35:49 <itidus21> in any case, it's better to base decisions on logic rather than on biases :D
07:35:52 <pikhq_> Vorpal: A Boddhisatva is someone who has attained enlightenment, and freed his mind of desire.
07:36:18 <Vorpal> pikhq_, yeah. Not sure how that relates to stopping making decisions still.
07:36:19 <zzo38> Buddhism is one kind of religion and is not such bad ideas.
07:36:31 <zzo38> Critical thinking is important regardless, though.
07:36:36 <pikhq_> Vorpal: See, didn't make much sense.
07:36:53 <itidus21> it purports to support critical thinking, but that can also catch people with their guard down
07:37:34 <itidus21> religions are more or less only as good as the humans who represent them
07:37:43 <Vorpal> but then on the other hand, not advocating critical thinking is worse.
07:38:02 <zzo38> No! They are as good as they are.
07:38:05 <Vorpal> so there is no good solution to the issue you mentioned, that I can think of at least.
07:38:32 <zzo38> Which may be better or worse than representatives depending on the philosophy.
07:44:13 <itidus21> its been too long since i had a mentor of any sort
07:44:53 <itidus21> i guess it means i have to start studying things on my own
07:45:40 <zzo38> Yes you should learn to study things by your own
07:45:56 <itidus21> i guess on freenode, everyone is a mentor in a way
07:48:35 <itidus21> i don't know exactly what it means that word.. but i find that in my chat career i have encountered people obviously brimming with knowledge
07:49:11 <zzo38> I also don't know completely
07:49:13 <itidus21> and i think the more people you meet like that the more you start to realize that others may well be smarter than you... or a lot smarter than you
07:49:24 <zzo38> Which is why we must learn (including myself)
07:49:34 <itidus21> or kicking you around like a football smarter than you
07:50:17 <zzo38> Yes there are other people, smarter, at different thing, than other people, many people they can understand these things better than I can but I learn and I think of it myself so sometimes can think of the thing that the other people have missed, too
07:50:54 <zzo38> Especially mathematics, you can think of things independently from the others, and I do too.
07:51:27 <zzo38> I like category theory too.
07:51:32 <itidus21> i think there is a fallacy that everyones knowledge equals out.
07:52:14 <itidus21> but infact those who apply themselves to learning or experiencing, or have more opportunities to do so, are sure to have richer knowledges
07:52:46 <itidus21> but there is something to be said for the way an unlearned person can get on with his day without being weighed down by analysis
07:52:51 <zzo38> Yes that is the case, I believe you.
07:53:12 <zzo38> I am not the smartest person in the world.
07:54:39 <itidus21> i do think there is still a case for the everyone is equally wise in some unique way
07:54:47 <itidus21> but it's not a very strong case
07:55:02 <olsner> I wonder what would happen if zzo38 was the smartest person in the world
07:55:44 <zzo38> Yes there is both cases both ways
07:56:05 <itidus21> yesterday when my net was down for a few hours, i went into windows control panel and changed to an extra large mouse pointer and mouse trails
07:56:10 <Vorpal> olsner, maybe he is and we just don't recognize it due to everyone else being too stupid?
07:57:45 <olsner> zzo38: Vorpal says that you are mistaken, you *are* the smartest person in the world. Start acting like it :)
07:58:26 <zzo38> olsner: I think you are wrong because if I am the smartest person in the world then why do you think I am mistaken?
07:58:26 <olsner> then again, it might be smart to be modest and not acknowledge that you are the smartest person in the world
07:58:46 <pikhq_> Dunning-Kruger effect says the smartest man in the world is unconvinced of that.
07:58:55 <olsner> zzo38: maybe you're just not smart enough to figure out that you are the smartest person in the world?
07:59:02 <zzo38> Many things I don't know that is why I am asking these kind of questions.
07:59:43 <pikhq_> (everyone focuses on the bit that people who know jack overestimate their abilities, nobody remembers that people who are actually experts underestimate *their* abilities)
08:00:18 <zzo38> I suppose that is a possibility too.
08:00:40 <itidus21> pikhq_: perhaps this is due to people rarely having competitions of their abilities
08:00:50 <Vorpal> pikhq_, I wonder what that says about Stephen Wolfram...
08:01:40 <itidus21> he is bald.. i suspect i will eventually be bald
08:04:58 <itidus21> one thing that i don't like much about theory is the way that theory is so self-contained
08:05:22 <itidus21> well white papers lead to more white papers
08:05:26 <olsner> pikhq_: looks like that's not part of dunning-kruger as described on wikipedia, that sounds more like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_stages_of_competence
08:05:29 <itidus21> calculations lead to more calculations
08:05:29 <zzo38> I think about mathematics including category theory, I read thing, I try working out things on paper and by computer, and I will ask a question too. Mathematics is of interest to me. Do you like mathematics?
08:05:36 <pikhq_> olsner: Curse my memory.
08:05:57 <pikhq_> It's cursed enough, being contained in unreliable thinking-meats.
08:06:36 <itidus21> i guess i mean theory is a closed system.. but i don't know what closed truely means
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08:11:24 <itidus21> so, to me, the level of geek(which is a good thing) involved in some work or hobby depends on how far removed it is from utilitarianism and entertainment
08:11:32 <oerjan> `addquote <oklopol> i don't get how people are afraid of parachute jumping but they routinely drive a car in fucking traffic
08:11:41 <HackEgo> 847) <oklopol> i don't get how people are afraid of parachute jumping but they routinely drive a car in fucking traffic
08:12:20 <itidus21> i think there is a degree of asceticism in not being interested in graphics or gamepads when interacting with computer
08:13:25 <itidus21> but especially the part that from the geeks point of view it is not asceticism at all, and that the alternative is just silly
08:15:05 <itidus21> i speak of people who prefer a MUD to a WoW, a command line to a GUI
08:15:47 <itidus21> people who prefer emacs and vim over microsoft word and open office
08:17:16 <itidus21> i am simply unable to see things that way
08:17:24 <zzo38> At least to me and many other people, yes, I prefer vi and TeX over Microsoft Word, prefer MUD to WoW and command-line to GUI mostly.
08:18:04 <oerjan> <pikhq_> Vorpal: A Boddhisatva is someone who has attained enlightenment, and freed his mind of desire. <-- _and_ chosen not to join nirvana yet in other to help others.
08:18:58 <oerjan> otherwise they're just a general enlightened person, or arahant.
08:19:45 <zzo38> oerjan: At least you appear to understand that better than I do, as far as I can tell.
08:19:59 <itidus21> and also.. prefer to use trigonometry to prove things about topology rather than use them to aim bullets in a video game
08:22:47 <zzo38> oerjan: I did look it up I can see how to make exponents of categories. But is it possible to use that to make a monad from monads on the base and exponent?
08:22:48 * oerjan actually looks this up and sees it's not as simple
08:23:05 <oerjan> um the boddhisattva stuff that is
08:23:53 <itidus21> the difficulty probably begins in the lack of a precise meaning of nirvana
08:24:16 <itidus21> the people like me who care about things like graphics and guis
08:24:26 <itidus21> always wanna ask "what is nirvana?"
08:25:22 <itidus21> and they want to extrapolate buddhism from a definition of nirvana, which is simply not possible
08:25:31 <Vorpal> <itidus21> i think there is a degree of asceticism in not being interested in graphics or gamepads when interacting with computer <-- screw gamepads, I want joysticks
08:26:06 <zzo38> oerjan: At least I do know how to make the monad from monads on the categories when you make the sum and product, without looking it up on Wikipedia, partially due to your suggestions too but of course I have to think of it by myself too
08:26:54 <zzo38> I also do not know if mathematicians have any other names for what I have called Finalize monad and Initialize comonad.
08:28:03 <oerjan> zzo38: on a hunch, since X^2 ~ X x X, it seems like you might want a monad on X in X^Y; although maybe you need another structure on Y, perhaps a comonad if you think of the analogy to haskell Y -> X
08:28:28 <itidus21> religions aren't really pure..
08:29:19 <zzo38> itidus21: Well, yes. They are not really pure. John Dee wanted to make it more pure, I think.
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08:30:28 <itidus21> there is no "normal" religious person
08:31:01 <itidus21> you can't make general statements about them :P
08:31:11 <itidus21> but if you could, it would be fascism
08:32:26 <zzo38> oerjan: Do you know of other mathematical names for Finalize monad and Initialize comonad? If there aren't any, then we should make up the mathematical notation for them.
08:32:27 <itidus21> the texts are always open to multiple interpretations.
08:33:00 <oerjan> zzo38: i don't know much of anything about monads outside Set (and Hask)
08:33:11 <itidus21> one can argue the text was authored by divine inspiration, in which case the human who writes it may not know the correct form of interpretation
08:33:37 <oerjan> zzo38: but they're too simple not to be well known.
08:33:39 <itidus21> or, if the human does claim to know the correct interpretation, well all such humans have long passed
08:33:49 <zzo38> itidus21: Yes that is the case (that the texts are always open to multiple interpretations). That may even be deliberate by their authors or whatever, possibly, at least sometimes.
08:34:24 <itidus21> and... no matter how many iterations a conversation has.. theres no guarantee of only having one interpretation
08:34:35 <oerjan> zzo38: Finalize was the monad where the functor sends everything to a terminal object, right?
08:35:08 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes they are simple so I would think they would be well known and someone would have invented a mathematical notation for them by now, but we cannot be completely sure. And, yes, Finalize is the monad where the endofunctor sends everything to a final object. (If there is more than one final object, there is a Finalize monad for each one)
08:35:51 <itidus21> this interpretation stuff also plagues philosophy
08:36:09 <itidus21> plagues could be positively replaced with inspires
08:38:15 <zzo38> (And then, Initialize comonad is simply the dual of the Finalize monad; i.e. the endofunctor sends everything to the initial object.)
08:41:26 <itidus21> if apples are plentiful and provide sustinance, then it is not necessary to analyze the apple
08:42:31 <zzo38> oerjan: Would you know from these now?
08:42:32 <itidus21> i think that what probably happens is that while searching for answers to some other problem, the apple gets analyzed so it can be searched
08:43:26 <oerjan> isn't this called the Const monad in haskell...
08:44:15 <itidus21> in the same way i think colonization works
08:44:23 <zzo38> oerjan: Also, how useful are these monad and comonads? Yes it is Finalize the same as Proxy
08:44:30 <itidus21> people on an island don't need to be colonized
08:44:56 <itidus21> but some external force is searching for resources
08:45:01 <zzo38> But I mean not only Haskell, but mathematics in general.
08:45:41 <oerjan> zzo38: i don't know. i have never read in depth about examples of monads in general category theory
08:46:08 <oerjan> i know they all come from adjunctions.
08:46:21 <zzo38> Yes I read that on Wikipedia too
08:55:25 <oerjan> and wikipedia doesn't seem to have any example list
08:56:16 <oerjan> although i would guess you could find the adjunction easily... the other category is presumably the trivial one with one object and its identity morphism only
08:56:51 <oerjan> so L maps to that category, and R maps back to a final object in the original one
08:57:36 <oerjan> well that's _one_ adjunction, i have a hunch there's essentially only one for this monad
08:59:14 <oerjan> or wait, maybe you can get others by using any category with a final object
08:59:28 <oerjan> or initial, not sure which way that would go
09:06:52 <oerjan> r.i.p. lonesome george
09:09:05 <kmc> subspecies
09:19:39 <zzo38> Now I have some idea of a semigroupoid where, for any two objects X and Y, if there is at least one morphism from X to Y, then there are no morphisms from Y to X. Nothing can be both this and a category except for the empty category.
09:20:08 <zzo38> What is it called?
09:20:18 <oerjan> semigroupoid, what's that again
09:20:38 <zzo38> Category without identity
09:20:56 <oerjan> oh, so this should hold even when X = Y?
09:21:24 <zzo38> Yes, that is why it is never a category except empty category.
09:21:53 <oerjan> any partial order gives one just by removing the identities, i think
09:22:47 <zzo38> Any strict partial order gives one, I think
09:22:54 <zzo38> I had the idea to call this "anticategory"
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10:51:18 <kmc> i tried to make my polyglot an AVR program also
10:51:28 <kmc> but it seems all interesting instructions on AVR have the high bit set
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11:14:42 <shachaf> If I made an instruction set, I'd only use the lower 7 bits.
11:15:09 <shachaf> I'd leave the upper half for individual countries to standardize.
11:18:11 <kmc> makes sense
11:18:57 <kmc> i'd like to see an instruction set using UTF-8
11:19:37 <kmc> would be pretty nice really
11:21:16 <ion> shachaf: haha
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11:35:03 <fizzie> z/Architecture instruction set has instructions for converting to/from UTF-8 (with UTF-16 or Unicode codepoints at the other end); does that count as "an instruction set using UTF-8"?
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11:39:17 <kmc> what do you mean by "Unicode codepoints"? a native machine integer with the codepoint value?
11:39:44 <fizzie> That's what I think, yes. The instruction listing I Googled was somewhat terse.
11:40:09 <Gregor> I don't consider an instruction set to "use" UTF-8 unless it can do things like strlen, strwidth, indexofnthcharacter with UTF-8 strings.
11:40:18 <Gregor> Not that any instruction set SHOULD do those things.
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11:40:26 <shachaf> Gregor: I think kmc meant the actual instructions were encoded with UTF-8.
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11:41:02 <Gregor> Oh, that's... bizarre X-D
11:41:08 <Gregor> Would be nice for debugging I suppose.
11:41:36 <shachaf> What, because it would be self-synchronizing?
11:42:13 <Gregor> Yeah, don't need some complexicon of instruction formats like x86, and not as restrictive as RISC *shrugs*
11:42:39 <kmc> it would also prevent jumping into the middle of an instruction
11:42:46 <kmc> without forcing a fixed-size encoding
11:43:06 <Gregor> Mmm, indeed, and that's not even debugging!
11:43:36 <shachaf> kmc: Do any of the adjustable big/little endian architectures also adjust instructions' endianness?
11:43:45 <kmc> variable length encoding is nice because some instructions are more common than others
11:43:47 * shachaf imagines each page starting with a BOM.
11:44:07 <shachaf> kmc: That's why I store my instructions gzipped in memory!
11:44:12 <kmc> i think some variants of PPC actually have a pagetable bit for endianness
11:46:09 <fizzie> I could imagine x86 having a segment descriptor field for that. I mean, they already have a 16/32 bit in.
11:47:11 <shachaf> UTF-8 is big-endian, I guess?
11:48:15 <fizzie> More significant bits come in the earlier bytes, yes.
11:48:33 <shachaf> So I guess we need to come up with UTF-8-LE, for completeness.
11:49:12 <fizzie> Yes, and get that thing popular. Too long have the UTF-8 folks ridiculed UTF-16 users for endianness problems.
11:52:19 <shachaf> Hmm, and we'd need our own BOM.
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12:04:06 <fizzie> Well, let's see. If you put the regular BOM U+FFEF into regular UTF-8, that's 1110|1111 10|111111 10|101111 (EFBFAF); interpreted as bizarro-UTF-8 that would recompose back to U+BFFF; that's some random Hangul 뿿. Okay, maybe it's not such a good BOM, yes.
12:12:24 <fizzie> But U+FEFF is zero-width no-break space.
12:14:24 <shachaf> That's when it's not at the beginning.
12:15:02 <fizzie> I must've misread FEFF as FFEF.
12:21:25 <fizzie> Well, in that case, U+FEFF => regular-UTF8 1110|1111 10|111011 10|111111 (efbbbf), and then reinterpreted as weirdo-UTF8 gives U+FFBF which is not allocated (though it's in the middle of halfwidth Hangul letters). Correspondingly, U+FEFF in weirdo-UTF8 would be 1110|1111 10|101111 10|111111 and interpreted as regular UTF-8 that's U+FBFF, which is... ARABIC LETTER FARSI YEH MEDIAL FORM. Aw, I ...
12:21:31 <fizzie> ... was hoping the usual U+FEFF, encoded in either way, would turn into something unused when read the wrong way.
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12:30:30 <Sgeo> Would it be fair to say that Io is like a higher-level Picolisp, in terms of amount of introspection?
12:30:56 <Sgeo> (Erm, well, "higher-level" not really in that terms but in terms of being a higher-level language in general)
12:33:38 <Vorpal> so I just got my new phone
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12:44:21 <fizzie> Is it an Android device, you enemy of freedom?
12:47:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, yes, because modern nokia sucks
12:47:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, it is a Samsung Galaxy S3
12:48:21 <fizzie> Yes, well, all Nokia phones are also enemies of freedom, that's not the question.
12:48:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, is there a phone that isn't an enemy of freedom?
12:49:03 <nortti> openmoko neo freerunner
12:49:17 <Vorpal> nortti, that doesn't have a quad core CPU though
12:49:47 <fizzie> Openmoko does get pretty close.
12:49:52 <Vorpal> hm unlike nexus it seems google earth is not preinstalled here
12:52:08 <Vorpal> the GPS seems to get a fix indoors in a matter of seconds (and I turned off the option to use WLAN when testing that)
12:52:13 <kmc> yeah openmoko
12:52:20 <kmc> cause i want a phone the size of a car battery, that doesn't actually work
12:52:21 <fizzie> It's not like even Freerunner has user-pokeable GSM parts inside.
12:52:36 <kmc> but it's free!!!!!!!!111
12:53:22 <fizzie> Also they had a binary-blob GPS driver too at some point, unless I misremember. That might've been fixed before the FreeRunner days.
12:54:00 <fizzie> You've got some pretty small car batteries in wherever-you-are, though.
12:54:07 <Vorpal> I haven't ordered a memory card for it yet, because apparently a 64 GB Class 10 MicroSD has only just been released. So it isn't available in web stores in Sweden until the middle of next month
12:54:56 <Vorpal> btw the unlock screen is not the usual android 4 "drag a circle near the bottom of the screen. It is some fancy "nature-inspired" water ripple thingy
12:55:22 <Vorpal> hm how do I set a single colour bg in android...
12:56:01 <fizzie> I seem to recall Stallman did say that Android was a tiny tiny bit less bad than Apple/Microsoft products. But not by much.
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12:56:23 <fizzie> He doesn't recommend phones anyway.
12:56:46 <fizzie> Here's a transcript from a GPLv3 conference:
12:56:48 <fizzie> "[a mobile phone rings]
12:56:49 <fizzie> If you are carrying a portable surveillance and tracking device, please turn it off. They have already tracked you here. They already know that you are listening to me, so there is no need for you to keep telling them that you are still here. And if they want to listen to what I am saying, we're going to publish the video recording anyway. They don't need to turn on your portable surveillance ...
12:56:52 <Vorpal> heh. I need a phone though
12:56:54 <Gregor> My impression from a talk by Stallman was that there exists some subset of Android that is acceptable, and people in FSF use phones that adhere to that subset, but that most commercial phones are a TRAP.
12:57:57 <fizzie> "I refuse to have a cell phone because they are tracking and surveillance devices. They all enable the phone system to record where the user goes, and many (perhaps all) can be remotely converted into listening devices." -- "RMS lifestyle"
12:58:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Articles include: "Interviews: the optimal time to clean one's toenails?"
12:59:47 <kmc> RMS has at various times lived in a house
12:59:55 <kmc> in fact I'm told he lived a couple houses down from where I live now
13:00:24 <fizzie> "And by the way, these portable tracking devices emit signals for tracking purposes even when they are apparently switched off; the only way to stop them is to take out all the batteries."
13:00:37 <fizzie> That's right, THEY are always watching.
13:01:15 <Gregor> There is no more dangerous delusion than the delusion that somebody cares.
13:01:15 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm sure The Man is terribly interested in what Stallman is up to.
13:01:33 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, although usually they're just watching the inside of your pocket.
13:07:59 <fizzie> All in all, at least it's not an iDevice. To quote,
13:08:15 <fizzie> "Steve Jobs, the pioneer of the computer as a jail made cool, designed to sever fools from their freedom, has died. -- But we all deserve the end of Jobs' malign influence on people's computing."
13:08:36 <fizzie> Putting the "fun" back to "funeral", he is.
13:09:44 <kmc> quoting RMS is *always* trolling by proxy
13:10:00 <fizzie> I sneakily cut off the required-disclaimer about how even Jobs didn't deserve to die.
13:10:02 <Phantom_Hoover> As before, I don't think quoting stupid things is trolling by proxy
13:10:21 <fizzie> (That's why the latter sentence starts with "but".)
13:12:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Frankly I'm astonished RMS was able to muster any kind of praise for Android.
13:13:11 <Gregor> Android is non-GNU/Linux ZOMG ^^
13:13:56 <fizzie> If you don't mind some quote-mining and cut-at-comma-ing, RMS says: "Android is a major step towards an ethical, user-controlled, free-software portable phone, --"
13:14:10 <fizzie> (The "--" is "but there is a long way to go.")
13:14:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Presumably that long way to go is making everything on it GPL.
13:16:05 <fizzie> Yes, the taint of the dirty Apache license is one problem.
13:18:09 <kmc> Gregor: they're fine with non-GNU projects which adhere to their philosophy...
13:18:32 <fizzie> Not releasing the sources for Android 3.0, 3.1; having binary firmware that has enough power to be malicious; manufactures locking things down.
13:18:37 <fizzie> Those are some others.
13:18:45 <Vorpal> anyone has any idea how to import vCalendar files into android...
13:18:55 <Vorpal> I dumped them from my nokia
13:19:13 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, does anyone outside GNU adhere to their philosophy?
13:19:15 <fizzie> "The phone network firmware comes pre-installed. If all it did was sit there and run, we could regard it as equivalent to a circuit. When we insist that the software in a computing device must be free, we can overlook pre-installed firmware that will never be upgraded, because it makes no difference to the user that it's a program rather than a circuit.
13:19:20 <fizzie> Unfortunately, in this case it would be a malicious circuit. Malicious features are unacceptable no matter how they are implemented.
13:19:23 <fizzie> On most Android phones, this firmware has so much control that it could turn the product into a listening device. On some, it controls the microphone. On some, it can take full control of the main computer, through shared memory, and can thus override or replace whatever free software you have installed. With some models it is possible to exercise remote control of this firmware, and thus of ...
13:19:29 <fizzie> ... the phone's computer, through the phone radio network."
13:20:01 <fizzie> Also since it can be upgraded, it must be open.
13:20:18 <fizzie> (FreeRunner, I think, also fails this particular test.)
13:20:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Waitwaitwait, does he consider the circuit that actually controls the microphone 'malicious'?
13:21:30 <fizzie> Well, the "circuitry-equivalent firmware".
13:21:40 <fizzie> "Putting these points together, we can tolerate non-free phone network firmware provided new versions of it won't be loaded, it can't take control of the main computer, and it can only communicate when and as the free operating system chooses to let it communicate. In other words, it has to be equivalent to circuitry, and that circuitry must not be malicious. There is no obstacle to building ...
13:21:46 <fizzie> ... an Android phone which has these characteristics, but we don't know of any."
13:23:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, but when he's complaining that it being *possible* for it to turn the phone into a listening device then I don't see how he can tolerate the concept of a phone at all.
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13:25:21 <Sgeo_> Aren't there modifyable circuits?
13:25:40 <Sgeo_> And as such, would the circuitry be allowed to be non-free in such a case?
13:27:02 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Well, y'see, the phone hardware must be such that any firmware blob can't possibly be malicious. (I'm not sure how it would be possible to do that for the GSM modem side, since it kind of has to be responsible for sending the contents of your phone call to the network, and could therefore be e.g. broadcasting that to Them too.)
13:27:13 <neutrino2000> you cannot patent physical circuits, you can also not patent schematics
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13:40:12 <pikhq_> fizzie: You should note that Stallman does not own a phone currently.
13:40:31 <fizzie> Well, that's for sure.
13:41:34 <kmc> Sgeo_: what do you mean by "modifyable circuits"
13:43:02 <kmc> neutrino2000: really, you can't patent a circuit?
13:43:24 <kmc> i thought the archtypal original purpose of patents was to patent a mechanical machine
13:43:28 <kmc> patenting a circuit seems very similar
13:44:44 <pikhq_> kmc: Strictly speaking, you don't patent a specific machine but rather a method of functioning *of* a machine. Otherwise you could get around a patent by reading a patent and designing a similar machine. ;)
13:44:59 <neutrino2000> yeah, it's well known, that's why people e.g. pot circuits in resin
13:45:13 <kmc> if it is well known perhaps you could furnish a link for me
13:45:25 <kmc> there are valid reasons why someone would go for trade secret over patent, even if something is patentable
13:45:56 <pikhq_> I'd help with citations, but I'm not *100%* sure that's the case, and besides which don't have any.
13:46:36 <kmc> if you patent something, your competitors find out how it works
13:46:49 <kmc> even if they are disallowed from producing the same thing, that information might help them in other ways
13:47:28 <AnotherTest> if you go for a trade secret, someone might (re)discover it and patent it
13:47:54 <neutrino2000> unless you then say you had prior art so they can't patent it
13:48:02 <pikhq_> neutrino2000: In theory.
13:48:18 <pikhq_> In practice, a *prior patent* doesn't necessarily mean you don't get a patent.
13:48:36 <pikhq_> Hence, for example, the double patents on LZW.
13:48:48 <kmc> or they might just infringe your patent and fight you in court
13:49:01 <kmc> so if your competitors have better lawyers than reverse engineers, you should go for secrecy :)
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13:51:29 <fizzie> "Whoever invents or discovers any new and useful process, machine, manufacture, or composition of matter, or any new and useful improvement thereof, may obtain a patent therefor, subject to the conditions and requirements of this title." That's a citation. Admittedly, it's kinda vague.
13:52:41 <AnotherTest> "subject to the conditions and requirements of this title"; indeed
13:52:51 <fizzie> Those are kinda long to quote.
13:53:18 <fizzie> There's the non-obviousness requirement, for example.
13:53:48 <fizzie> It mustn't be obvious to the mythical "person having ordinary skill in the art".
13:54:18 <AnotherTest> Do they provide a definition of "ordinary skill"?
13:54:26 <kmc> fizzie: there are none of those in programming, you know!
13:54:37 <kmc> it's all idiot code monkeys and ninja rockstar hackers
13:54:46 <kmc> nobody has ordinary skill ;)
13:55:59 <fizzie> No. Though it continues with a very confusingly worded exception on "biotechnological processes".
13:56:17 <fizzie> "-- a biotechnological process using or resulting in a composition of matter that is novel under section 102 and nonobvious under subsection (a) of this section shall be considered nonobvious if [long list]"
13:56:33 <fizzie> They do define what a "biotechnological process" is.
13:57:07 <AnotherTest> Is that like your brains thinking about technology?
13:57:45 <fizzie> No, it's: "(A) a process of genetically altering or otherwise inducing a single- or multi-celled organism to- (i) express an exogenous nucleotide sequence, (ii) inhibit, eliminate, augment, or alter expression of an endogenous nucleotide sequence, or (iii) express a specific physiological characteristic not naturally associated with said organism; (B) cell fusion procedures yielding a cell ...
13:57:51 <fizzie> ... line that expresses a specific protein, such as a monoclonal antibody; and (C) a method of using a product produced by a process defined by subparagraph (A) or (B), or a combination of subparagraphs (A) and (B)."
13:58:39 <AnotherTest> Oh so it has to be related to medical technology.
13:59:25 <Sgeo_> kmc, those.... thingies that you can modify
14:00:09 <kmc> FPGA have firmware basically
14:00:27 <kmc> the "gates" in a FPGA are actually look-up tables programmed by some RAM which is loaded at boot (often from flash, either on-chip or off-chip)
14:01:33 <fizzie> I would believe it again counts as circuitry as long as you don't upgrade the firmware ever. (If it's a separate system that keeps reconfiguring the FPGA from time to time, I think that could also still be non-free as long as it's not touched ever and functions as a black box.)
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15:36:33 <Vorpal> strange setting under sync options on the phone: Under the google account there is a checkbox named "sync internet", it is in the list of stuff like "sync contacts", "sync email" and so on
15:37:12 <Vorpal> presumably it creates a local copy of the internet
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15:59:02 <olsner> Vorpal: don't sync the internet, it will delete everything on the internet and upload the stuff that is on your phone right now
15:59:33 <Vorpal> huh, they removed the debug option from earlier android versions that allowed you to disable the screen timeout while usb was attached
15:59:40 <Vorpal> that is kind of annoying
16:03:49 <ion> An Emacs user http://horatio.naurunappula.com/screen/b1/83/b1835a1cc0efa869/0/933709.jpg
16:05:42 <olsner> ion: another emacs user: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I25UeVXrEHQ
16:06:10 <olsner> all emacs users are foot-crud eaters
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16:19:13 <olsner> I wonder if I should stay off IRC for an entire week and see what I end up doing after I get too bored to do nothing
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16:51:43 <Taneb> Embarrassed myself a tad today at a University open day when I corrected the lecturer's Python
16:53:42 <kmc> holy shit, a talking snake!
17:02:25 <ion> Oh, a snake! Oh, it’s a snake!
17:03:16 <kmc> > text . concat $ replicate 11 "badger "
17:03:18 <lambdabot> badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger
17:03:31 <lambdabot> "badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badg...
17:05:53 <kmc> !bf_txtgen badger
17:05:57 <EgoBot> 65 ++++++++++[>++++++++++>+>><<<<-]>--.-.+++.+++.--.+++++++++++++.>. [81]
17:06:02 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
17:06:11 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
17:06:31 <kmc> haskell is esoteric but cxx isn't?
17:06:39 <nortti> !underload ((badger)S:^):^
17:06:41 <EgoBot> badgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerb
17:06:44 <nortti> !underload ((badger )S:^):^
17:06:45 <EgoBot> badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger
17:07:03 <kmc> that's a lot of badgers
17:07:11 <olsner> the one without whitespace seemed a bit more poignant
17:07:38 <kmc> _EgoBot's poignant guide to underload
17:08:00 <olsner> _underload's poignant guide to badger
17:08:29 <kmc> honeybadger don't care
17:08:50 <olsner> from 0 to badgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadger in 24h
17:09:07 <kmc> teach yourself to badger in 24 hours for dummies
17:09:51 <olsner> only one badger in 24h? it'll take months to get to a reasonable number of badger
17:12:21 <ion> `run printf '\n' | sed -e 's/^/badger /' | sed -e 's/^/badger /' | sed -e 's/^/badger /' | sed -e 's/^/badger /' | sed -e 's/^/badger /' | sed -e 's/^/badger /' | sed -e 's/^/badger /' | sed -e 's/^/badger /'
17:12:31 <HackEgo> badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger
17:14:19 <olsner> echo | sed -e ':a' -e 's/^/badger /' -e 'ta'
17:15:30 <olsner> note: kill that before it runs you out of RAM
17:15:45 <olsner> it's pretty slow though
17:15:48 <kmc> should i lern2sed?
17:16:38 <olsner> funnier version: echo ' ' | sed -e ':a' -e 's/./badger /g' -e 'ta'
17:17:36 <olsner> with printing: echo ' ' | sed -e ':a' -e 's/./badger /g' -e 'p;ta'
17:21:39 <olsner> wee bit shorter: echo | sed -e ':a' -e 's/.\?/badger /g' -e 'p;ta'
17:41:06 <Vorpal> why do my normal headphones work to play FM radio on my new phone? On my old it required nokia's own headset, and the connector was longer than usual. How strange...
17:41:42 <Vorpal> (and I checked, it needs some headphones connected for the radio to work)
17:42:31 <olsner> I think it's because the old one had artificial limitations
17:42:48 <olsner> pretty sure they all work on the same principle, using the headphones as the antenna
17:43:14 <Vorpal> olsner, I thought it had an extra wire in it that worked as an antenna
17:43:30 <Vorpal> anyway wouldn't there be issues with the length of the wire?
17:44:17 <olsner> I would guess that it works because FM happens to be at a frequency where it doesn't matter much how the antenna looks
17:46:26 <Vorpal> now to figure out how to switch search engine to a custom one...
17:47:32 <olsner> why would they allow you to do that?
17:48:05 <Vorpal> olsner, well they do allow you to switch between a few (it is Android, not iOS!) but yeah I have to figure out how to switch to duckduckgo
17:48:56 <olsner> does android have a specific web-search thingy? I usually just open mini and search
17:49:52 <Vorpal> oh you have a non-smart phone
17:50:15 <olsner> no, it's a smart phone, it has the android and everything
17:50:19 <Vorpal> anyway I can add a widget for duckduckgo from google play (previously called android market)
17:51:14 <Vorpal> the issue is I want it in the browser, I can just select google, bing and yahoo
17:51:54 <Vorpal> and chrome for android beta is just as bad, except it also has ask jeeves (who the hell uses that?)
17:52:04 <olsner> there should be an easy way to create custom search engines there
17:52:05 <Vorpal> olsner, so yeah, looking for a way to add custom ones
17:52:30 <Vorpal> where? I tried the menu button and holding down and various such things
17:52:51 <olsner> have you tried longpressing the search field on duckduckgo? I think that's how you get the menu to do it in opera mini anyway
17:53:49 <Vorpal> that gives me clipboard in the built in browser, will try in the chrome beta too
17:54:27 <Vorpal> olsner, why would you use opera mini on an android device btw?
17:55:07 <olsner> Vorpal: faster, downloads less crap
17:55:55 <olsner> I only bother with another browser when something uses too much script and client-side stuff to work well in mini
17:56:08 <Vorpal> I guess it saves on the bw yeah
17:56:27 <olsner> *and* if I'm sufficiently interested in the page to want to wait for everything to download
17:56:42 <Vorpal> everything is super-quick on this phone though
17:56:53 <Vorpal> but, won't hurt installing it, might be useful at some point. A mobile browser with adblock would be nice though
17:57:24 <Vorpal> also I need a mobile irc client, any recommendations?
17:58:02 <Vorpal> and WHY does opera mini want permissions for NFC?
17:58:25 <olsner> opera mobile is the regular browser for mobile phones (downloading everything and rendering locally on your phone), opera mini uses the proxy and server-side compression stuff
17:58:41 <olsner> I guess because they use NFC?
17:59:04 <Vorpal> yeah I know what mini does, I used it before on my dumb-phone
17:59:20 <olsner> android is iffy like that though, you have to ask permission for EVERYTHING that you EVER want the application to be able to do, which ends up with everything getting every permission in the world
17:59:43 <Vorpal> I guess I'll try out all of opera, firefox and so on and see what I like
18:00:44 <Vorpal> what I don't love is that this room is a wifi white spot sometimes...
18:05:46 <Vorpal> olsner, according to duck duck go's site you need to sync with desktop opera mini where duckduckgo is set as a search engine to make it work on mini
18:05:50 <Vorpal> you had another solution?
18:09:20 <olsner> looks like the issue is that they're doing something retarded to their search field
18:10:02 <Vorpal> going to try to reload it as desktop version in chrome
18:10:25 <olsner> works in mobile, longpress the search field and you get Add Search Engine
18:10:55 <Vorpal> olsner, oh so not mini?
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18:16:36 <Vorpal> yay figured it out in firefox
18:19:50 <mroman> 5 years to brute force brainfuck constants :)
18:21:57 <olsner> well, worst case since you're looking for the shortest ones?
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19:14:52 * oerjan notes that the tunes.org clock is at least a few seconds late already
19:15:38 <oerjan> which leads me to wonder whether my recent discovery that is was at the correct minute was simply of the "right twice a day" variety...
19:16:39 <oerjan> and also that the codu logs are probably up again, although glogbot and glogbackup both being here isn't _quite_ reassuring.
19:19:40 <oklopol> what's it called when you're able to divine whether a turing machine halts
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19:29:10 <Taneb> If you could define a machine such that it halts if and only if a corresponding Turing machine does not, would it be turing complete?
19:32:41 <Taneb> Of course, the existence of both this machine and a Turing machine would solve the halting problem, I think
19:33:04 <oklopol> for that turing machine, yes
19:33:56 <oklopol> but solving the halting problem of a single turing machine is trivial if you don't require a computational model to make the divination. just say no if it doesn't halt and yes if it does.
19:34:26 <oklopol> or the other way around w/e
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20:50:17 <Vorpal> For some reason I suspect that you will know the answer to the question I'm about to ask. Which lossy music format is best suited for music on a phone, possibly using high end head phones to listen to it.
20:50:36 <Vorpal> OGG? AAC? MP3? Something else?
20:50:44 <Vorpal> hm I should check if OGG is supported.
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20:58:57 <pikhq> Vorpal: Ogg if available, then AAC, then MP3. (AAC first if using a non-free encoder)
20:59:27 <Vorpal> pikhq, which encoder do you suggest?
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21:00:28 <Vorpal> anything that doesn't cost money is okay for me. My input is .flac mostly (though it would be trivial to convert it to wav)
21:00:51 <Vorpal> preserving metadata would be nice
21:01:03 <Vorpal> though I could probably use musicbrainz to readd that
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21:02:55 <Vorpal> fuck you mtp protocol!
21:03:14 <Vorpal> why did it suddenly stop working
21:03:17 <Vorpal> it worked a minute ago
21:04:00 <Vorpal> oh it didn't work when rythmbox was open?
21:05:36 <pikhq> Vorpal: I dunno. oggenc or LAME, and I'm not too up on what good AAC encoders are out there.
21:05:49 <pikhq> I just happen to know libfaac isn't that good.
21:06:02 <Vorpal> and flac works too, though that is a waste of space
21:07:56 <Vorpal> pikhq, parameter suggestions for oggenc?
21:08:21 <Vorpal> like the -q (quality) parameter
21:10:05 <Vorpal> yeah the default sounds slightly off in some of the detail
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21:29:55 <Vorpal> hm can android scan QR codes out of box?
21:30:00 <Vorpal> if not, any good app for it?
21:31:03 <Vorpal> coppro, any ads in that app?
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21:31:33 <Vorpal> coppro, the barcode scanner app by "ZXING TEAM"?
21:32:47 <Vorpal> ah it is open source at least
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21:37:06 <Vorpal> right seems to work fine
21:37:42 <Vorpal> also lol this link when I clicked on a link. I installed a large set of browsers to evaluate them
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22:33:25 <Vorpal> olsner, hm I have problems with opera mini
22:33:37 <Vorpal> it doesn't seem to play well with the multi tasking on ICS
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22:34:20 <Vorpal> like the start screen (with the quick links) refusing to display after the program was backgrounded for a while until I force stop it
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23:22:32 <kmc> Vorpal: Google Goggles does QR codes and a bunch of other stuff
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04:01:46 <zzo38> There ought to be a method of payment on internet like this: You connect to some SSH and send the amount of money you want to pay to them. The server responds with the keys to a new account consisting of that amount of money moved from the original account. You communicate this securely to the recipient, who then splits off the price from the new account and approves the transaction.
04:04:26 <zzo38> This is secure, is not susceptible to homograph attacks, is not susceptible to the merchant taking more money from you than you authorized, is not susceptible to false expiry warning messages, etc.
04:07:05 <zzo38> The recipient of the money then goes to the bank or whatever and retrieves the money using the keys to the account. They do not necessarily need their own bank account or anything like that.
04:07:41 <itidus21> zzo38: i think in practice what happens is a society collectively adapts to a payment system
04:08:12 <itidus21> weaknesses in a system get exploited and as a result of this the system gets modified
04:08:35 <itidus21> unfortunately a system with no weaknesses is very cold and sober... very 'soviet'
04:10:24 <zzo38> In the way I have specified you do not even necessarily need to connect to the same server, since they could belong to different banks, as long as those banks have an agreement between them, or possibly indirect through a number of other banks, you can make this payment. Neither the purchaser nor the merchant needs a bank account.
04:11:26 <itidus21> i always think deeper about these things
04:11:58 <zzo38> Well, yes, think about it, due to weakness that is why they would be exploited and modified but that may cause other problems, and this and that, and etc.
04:12:03 <itidus21> how much problems is there actually with these payment systems?
04:12:10 <itidus21> i mean existing payment systems
04:12:24 <zzo38> But I know no weaknesses with the system I have proposed, although there may be some.
04:12:33 <itidus21> i mean the current real world systems
04:12:58 <zzo38> itidus21: Some are the problems I have described, read what I have described above you may see.
04:13:34 <itidus21> are these problems mostly related to the internet?
04:14:23 <itidus21> for example, i have never had a bank problem
04:14:36 <itidus21> even thouhg once i gave my bank details to a mysterious woman online
04:14:57 <itidus21> she was kind for not abusing that... but i freaked out ever since
04:15:38 <zzo38> Some of them are related to the internet, I suppose.
04:16:11 <zzo38> I suggest implementing both my new system as well as the old system, and deprecating the old system.
04:16:38 <itidus21> i mean, if a person does nothing wrong, is the bank responsible to recover the money?
04:19:44 <zzo38> I don't know about those kind of laws.
04:21:23 <itidus21> Your ideas are intriguing to me, and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
04:22:05 <zzo38> I do not own a newsletter.
04:23:02 <itidus21> http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/The_Simpsons/Season_8#Mountain_of_Madness
04:27:39 <zzo38> OK, but I still do not own a newsletter.
04:34:48 <itidus21> i love the idea that a person has a newsletter
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05:42:06 <nortti> :P I am doing my programming course work in c (instead of python) on unix v7 (instead of debian)
05:43:15 <nortti> also: http://www.osnews.com/story/26114/Did_Alan_Turing_really_commit_suicide_
05:55:18 <kmc> it's funny how people say "LGBT" even when talking about things which have nothing to do with the trans part of that
05:55:35 <kmc> there is a myth that all sexual minorities are united by oppression and have the same heroes and villains
05:56:00 <kmc> actually a lot of gay people hate bisexuals, and a lot of gay and bisexual people are transphobic
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05:58:59 <kmc> maybe i just see the worst in people though
05:59:52 <pikhq> I genuinely don't get that.
06:00:09 <pikhq> Well. I know that it's the case, I just don't understand it.
06:00:29 <olsner> @tell Vorpal open a new tab (or close all open ones) and you'll get a new start page ... restarting mini will ususally resume in the state it was before closing
06:01:34 <kmc> it's a sad fact that recently oppressed people are perfectly willing to oppress others
06:01:49 <olsner> I think often "LGBT" = "all those weird people so I don't forget and accidentally offend any of them"
06:02:29 <kmc> like when the USA sent freed slaves to Liberia, and they set up basically an imitation of racist Southern society
06:02:33 <copumpkin> kmc: in some cases (racial, historically), it can even be a form of fitting in
06:02:41 <shachaf> kmc: Still-oppressed people do, too.
06:02:45 <kmc> with American ex-slaves on top and the native africans on the bottom
06:03:10 <kmc> olsner: yeah. these "community" labels are an easy way for politicians to pander
06:03:13 <copumpkin> people will think they'll fit in better if they join in on the hate on existing (other) minorities
06:03:35 <kmc> it reminds me of the assumption that anyone in the USA who has ancestors from Latin America in the past 4 generations is assumed to be a single issue voter on immigration
06:03:48 <copumpkin> there was actually a lot of tension between cape verdean immigrants and historical ex-slave black people in the US, for example
06:04:00 <copumpkin> even though to most outsiders, they were just "black people"
06:04:04 <kmc> you know, say something in spanish, mumble about immigration reform, check off the "latino community" box on your card
06:04:44 <kmc> copumpkin: in what time period?
06:06:07 <copumpkin> I think most of it was in the early-to-mid 20th century, but I've forgotten most of the details from that book
06:06:45 <copumpkin> http://www.amazon.com/Black-Identities-Immigrant-American-Realities/dp/0674007247
06:07:41 <kmc> interesting
06:08:21 <copumpkin> my favorite course in undergrad was the course on racial identity / racism in the US
06:13:59 <pikhq> Apparently I just don't understand people.
06:15:48 <olsner> I think most of racism (etc) is grounded in thinking that's supposed to keep a tribe of people together and safe from other tribes
06:16:01 <olsner> and it's basically perfectly natural for people to hate other people
06:16:48 <kmc> it's also deliberately encouraged by the ruling classes to keep the masses in control
06:17:16 <pikhq> olsner: Alas, evolution works much slower than humans.
06:18:41 <kmc> if you make the poor people fight each other according to arbitrary divisions, then they won't join forces against you
06:18:47 <olsner> well, doesn't have to be something genetic (although I suppose if there's a real biological predisposition for such thinking, that would have to be genetic)
06:19:36 <pikhq> If there's *not* a biological predisposition for it, how could it possibly survive this long?
06:19:50 <kmc> traits can be hereditary without being genetic
06:20:11 <pikhq> kmc: Yes, but non-genetic things mutate rather a lot faster...
06:23:55 <olsner> the general idea that different/unknown things are possibly dangerous (e.g. don't accept candy from strange people) is easily exploitable
06:39:47 <pikhq> Jumping back to a previous conversation state a bit... I wonder, do bisexuals often hate homosexuals?
06:40:09 <pikhq> I mean, it wouldn't make any sense, but the inverse *happens* and that makes no sense.
06:43:54 <kmc> i think declaring that you will only sleep with men, or only sleep with women, is a bit *silly*
06:43:57 <kmc> but i don't hate anyone for it
06:44:43 <pikhq> That's just a matter of you not being on one of the extremes of the Kinsey scale, isn't it? :P
06:45:42 <kmc> in that the kinsey scale is about my preferences, not my attitude towards other people's preferences
06:46:50 <olsner> but it sounds like you interpret that ("*will* only sleep with") as a declaration of intent, rather than e.g. an observation of what someone's attracted to
06:47:14 <kmc> well you can observe many things about who people are attracted to
06:47:36 <kmc> maybe i'm only attracted to redheads, but most people would not consider that a core part of my personal identity
06:47:49 <kmc> and if i dated someone with blonde hair, they wouldn't be like "oh my god, i thought he was only into redheads"
06:47:56 <kmc> though this is not entirely unheard of, either
06:48:27 <kmc> basically i think the labels make sense in the context of solidarity against political oppression
06:48:49 <zzo38> I date no-one and sleep alone.
06:49:06 <kmc> but if you have the privilege to live relatively free of that oppression, then the labels are silly
06:49:51 <pikhq> Well, yes, nobody thinks much of someone doing something that is considered *perfectly normal*.
06:50:16 <kmc> i can think of some useful consequences of cutting yourself off from 50% of the dating pool
06:50:44 <kmc> you can have friendships with people in whatever gender you've declared no interest in, without you or them worrying that you're trying to get into their pants
06:51:43 <kmc> also i imagine being bisexual and strictly monogamous is a bit more awkward than being mono-sexual (?) and strictly monogamous
06:51:50 <kmc> but the rant about monogamy is another rant ;P
06:52:46 <zzo38> Is "mono-sexual" a word? If not, then you made it up and it seems clear enough meaning
06:59:23 <kmc> as usual, these things are skewed by pop culture too
06:59:57 <kmc> if you have a gay character on TV, more likely than not, being gay is like their #1 defining characteristic and the fact around which all their behaviors and interactions revolve
07:00:08 <kmc> rather than just another character point
07:00:17 <pikhq> Yeah, that rather bothers me. A lot.
07:01:00 <zzo38> It is why you can write down another story whatever you want involving whatever you want
07:01:16 <kmc> i think that is changing, though
07:01:22 <kmc> or at least, i can think of some good counterexamples
07:01:33 <shachaf> kmc: How would you even know that?
07:02:29 <kmc> so this isn't a joke about me not owning a TV?
07:02:54 <shachaf> Oh. Nope, I didn't think about that.
07:03:35 <shachaf> It just seems to me like there are a lot of "just another character point"s that you don't even know about, or don't really notice.
07:04:15 <kmc> in The Wire there's a character who's seen in the background of a gay bar for a split second, and this is never otherwise referenced or explained
07:04:16 <pikhq> shachaf: Society being what it is, if they're not *said* to be gay, it's assumed they're straight.
07:04:35 <shachaf> pikhq: Who's being somethingist now?!
07:05:01 <pikhq> shachaf: I'm not saying this is *correct*, I'm saying this is the *prevailing assumption*.
07:05:12 <zzo38> Well, if they are not said to be left-handed and you have no evidence like that, they would be assumed to be right-handed, isn't it?
07:05:13 <shachaf> So you're calling kmc somethingist?
07:05:15 <kmc> i don't think i need to make such an assumption for my claim to work
07:05:19 <shachaf> Or just saying his statement is a tautology?
07:05:22 <olsner> I think most characters *in general* are a single trait maximized, because that makes the whole thing easier
07:05:40 <kmc> there are characters whose sexual preferences are never explored, characters with lots of heterosexual relationships, and characters with lots of homosexual relationships
07:05:41 <pikhq> olsner: Lazy writing is lazy.
07:05:46 <kmc> (and, very occasionally, characetrs with both)
07:05:50 <shachaf> olsner: That's a good point.
07:06:02 <shachaf> That's why I don't watch much television, y'know. I don't even own one, actually.
07:06:03 <zzo38> Well, I am calling you right-handed! (Even though, I do not actually know.)
07:06:13 <kmc> so i'm comparing characters whose preferences are established
07:06:28 <olsner> and, well, stereotypes are too useful to ignore
07:06:38 <kmc> of course you could say that most of the characters who are apparently straight are having awesome gay sex just off camera
07:06:42 <kmc> but that's not really how fiction works
07:07:06 <kmc> it's not a matter of assuming they're straight, it's a matter of the author telling you they're straight and you not having any evidence they're secretly bi
07:07:13 <zzo38> kmc: Really? You can write story however you want to let's try. Therefore you can say, I don't know, is it straight, gay, otherwise? We might not know for sure.
07:08:03 <pikhq> Of course, fan-fic is a magic land where everybody's sexuality is whatever you want it to be.
07:08:11 <zzo38> Try making a story where nobody knows they are homosexual for a long time, and also where nobody knows they are left-handed for a long time, and perhaps nobody knows they wear glasses either, for a while, etc
07:08:20 <pikhq> And also, males can get pregnant somehow.
07:08:57 <shachaf> You have an island with 100 people. Everyone knows everyone's "sexual preference" except their own. One day an oracle comes to the island...
07:09:03 <kmc> there's a TV trope where the apparently straight woman has a lesbian fling with an attractive guest star during sweeps week
07:09:15 <olsner> I think another part of it is that they make characters some way to make some point, and often that point is "look how modern we are, we put a gay in our show!"
07:09:20 <kmc> and then the guest star goes away and it never comes up again
07:09:25 <olsner> and then you have to make it really obvious to score the equality points
07:09:48 <kmc> olsner: yeah
07:09:53 <kmc> now i'm trying to decide if Modern Family is an example of this
07:10:00 <kmc> i mean, it's right in the name ;)
07:10:10 <zzo38> When I write a story I try to do a lot of things different than other stories, although some things might be similar than others, such as writing in English and so on.
07:10:26 <shachaf> Man, I love equality points.
07:10:36 <kmc> i mean the gay-dads characters do get reasonable three-dimensional character development, but they still have a lot of plots that are about how they're gay
07:11:25 * shachaf doesn't really get the whole idea of caring about this topic at all.
07:11:26 <pikhq> kmc: "Hooray, penis!"?
07:11:32 <kmc> omar little could kick their asses
07:11:44 <zzo38> If there are too many similar plots then try to diversify please
07:12:17 <zzo38> Such as making different kind of plots
07:12:31 <olsner> kmc: only seen a few episodes of that show, but that couple seems to be doing a fair amount of of comic relief gayness
07:12:47 <kmc> yeah, it really depends on the episode
07:12:57 <kmc> they try to use all their ensemble characters in every episode
07:13:08 <kmc> if they get a main plot, it will probably be something more interesting
07:13:16 <kmc> if they get like the C plot, it might be cheap jokes based on teh gay
07:14:11 <kmc> basing an episode on the unique experiences of gay dads raising a family is at least more thematically relevant than making a big deal out of the gayness of a character on, like, some police procedural
07:15:06 <kmc> shachaf: c.c
07:15:21 <kmc> shachaf: when you say you don't get "the whole idea of caring about this topic"
07:15:24 <kmc> which topic do you mean?
07:15:33 <pikhq> kmc: Yes, but one takes writing ability and taste, the other just requires the ability to bash out words that won't make a producer actually hate you. :)
07:16:33 <shachaf> kmc: I actually think I honestly don't watch enough television to know what you mean.
07:16:39 <shachaf> Well, not enough bad television, anyway. :-)
07:17:01 <kmc> well, the reason people care is that pop culture influences social attitudes
07:17:58 <zzo38> I like Fukumoto's manga such as Kaiji and Akagi. (I do not know if the characters are gay or anything like that; this is not relevant to the story.)
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07:21:34 <kmc> shachaf: i probably watch too much bad television :)
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07:22:11 <pikhq> I'm just good at joining complaint-fests.
07:22:25 <olsner> kmc: not that there's a whole lot of good television out there
07:22:27 <kmc> i see what you did there
07:22:36 <kmc> olsner: there is a fair amount actually
07:23:02 <pikhq> It just follows the rule that 99% of everything is shit.
07:23:06 <olsner> yes, there is Star Trek, but I've already seen that
07:23:29 <kmc> in fact the period 2000-present is considered something of a golden age of television by most TV critics
07:24:22 <kmc> in terms of shows that really push the medium to be artistically on par with film and novels
07:24:39 <pikhq> There was also a lot of shit in that period. (but, this is nothing new)
07:25:09 <kmc> most TV is still bad (most film and novels, too)
07:25:22 <zzo38> I prefer to write book, anyways
07:27:17 <kmc> oh man, the third season premiere of Louie is on Thursday
07:27:20 <kmc> that show fucking owns
07:29:33 <kmc> it's really unlike anything else on TV
07:31:21 <kmc> every week, they cut Louis C.K. a check for about $300k and he gives them what amounts to 1 - 2 short films about whatever the fuck he wants
07:32:18 <kmc> which range from hilarious comedy to authentically poignant meditations on life to just bizarre unsettling shit
07:36:31 <zzo38> Currently in ITMCK it recognizes the following commands in a channel: a ... g (notes), r (rest), n (direct note), ^ (tie), & (slur), / (auto portamento), L (song loop start), || (song loop skip), |L (song loop end), @ (instrument), @@ (key table), @u (effect table), @= (set variable), @q (quantize), @e (direct effect), o (octave), < (low octave), > (high octave),
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07:36:51 <shachaf> kmc: DId you know about Compose-.-=?
07:36:57 <shachaf> I only knew about Compose-.--.
07:37:06 * shachaf suspects the punctuation may not be helpful there.
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07:37:56 <zzo38> l (note length), K (transpose), v (volume), G (global volume), X (call user-defined macro), C (note cut setting), q (quantize), t (tempo), [ ] (repeat), I (tremor), J (arpeggio), T (tremolo), P (panning), V (vibrato), Y (panbrello), z (cancel effects).
07:38:48 <zzo38> shachaf: What compose is that?
07:39:45 <shachaf> zzo38: Compose-compose-Win-T-Ctrl-R-u-n-i-c-Enter-/-W-H-I-T-E- -C-I-R-C-L-E-Enter
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07:40:11 <shachaf> It's kind of an awkward combination.
07:40:29 <shachaf> (The worst part is you have to press them all at once.)
07:40:38 <zzo38> But there are some duplicates
07:40:49 <shachaf> That's why I have two keyboards.
07:41:23 * shachaf wonders how many people went up and double-checked that there aren't three of any letter just to prove him wrong.
07:42:02 <zzo38> There is the lowercase "i" and two of uppercase "I"
07:42:31 <shachaf> Those are different letters.
07:43:16 <zzo38> They are the same key on a standard computer keyboard.
07:43:49 <kmc> "After a man in an Elmo costume was ejected from Central Park for an obscenity-laced rant, fellow impersonators of the Sesame Street star breathed sighs of relief."
07:43:59 <kmc> you know I'm glad I still get NYC local news
07:44:12 <shachaf> Is obscenity a 5-HT_2A agonist?
07:45:19 <shachaf> I like the way JetBlue advertises their airplane-flying-points.
07:45:30 <kmc> apparently this particular Elmo had some problems with the Jews and the illegal immigrants
07:45:35 <shachaf> * Unless you don't use them.
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08:03:22 <kmc> shachaf: when do they expire actually?
08:04:21 <shachaf> kmc: After you've flown on no flights and earned no points for 12 months.
08:04:41 <shachaf> The idea seems to be that no *individual* point expires, i.e., by refreshing your pool you refresh all the points in it.
08:04:48 <shachaf> But it's still very misleading advertising.
08:05:01 <kmc> jetblue does have some very cheap fares from time to time, though
08:05:14 <kmc> so the upkeep cost is low, if you're paying attention
08:05:47 <shachaf> I suppose it's just another form of market segmentation, or something.
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08:05:58 <shachaf> I don't mind being segmented too much, I just mind being lied to. :-(
08:07:52 <shachaf> kmc: Have you seen this puzzle? http://cryp.to/address-of-riddle/
08:08:17 <shachaf> Or some variety of it. When I first heard that you could overload &, it's what I immediately thought of, but I didn't realize it was solveable.
08:10:28 <kmc> ugh, overloading operator & should be punishable by death
08:14:16 <shachaf> { T *ret; asm("mov %%rdi,%0" : "=g"(ret)); return ret; }
08:14:31 <kmc> you're winner
08:14:41 <fizzie> Also sometimes spelled "wiener".
08:15:11 <kmc> i solved it in C++ but i basically looked up the solution
08:15:18 <kmc> http://www.informit.com/guides/content.aspx?g=cplusplus&seqNum=546
08:15:28 <shachaf> I suspect I don't know C++ well enough to figure out an answer without reading about C++.
08:15:39 <shachaf> Then again, reading about C++ is the usual way I write C++ when I come across weird edge cases.
08:16:15 <kmc> yeah my thoughts exactly
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08:18:25 <kmc> the solution is pretty simple, and involves something i didn't know you could do
08:18:29 <kmc> so thachaf
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08:21:28 <shachaf> kmc: Hmm, I looked at your link and tried that and my program did something unexpected.
08:21:38 <kmc> expect the unexpected
08:22:45 <shachaf> Is this not undefined behavior or something?
08:23:00 <shachaf> Casting to char& seems mighty fishy to me.
08:23:20 <kmc> the article says it's defined
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08:23:56 <shachaf> "The C++ standard guarantees that an lvalue expression of type T1 can be cast to the type T2& if an expression of type T1* can be explicitly converted to the type T2 * using a reinterpret_cast"
08:24:03 <shachaf> Do you have that guarantee in general about foo and double and char?
08:24:52 <kmc> again, the article suggests you can
08:25:03 <shachaf> kmc: You ought to write a post about gcc inline assembly.
08:25:10 <kmc> what about it
08:25:19 <shachaf> http://www.ibiblio.org/gferg/ldp/GCC-Inline-Assembly-HOWTO.html is outdated and I have the feeling it's more confusing than it can be.
08:25:30 <kmc> i've used GCC inline assembly in a few posts
08:26:52 <kmc> i'm not sure i have much to say about it
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08:27:08 <kmc> and the realistic use cases are a bit too disjoint to just have a list of examples
08:28:29 <Deewiant> http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc/Extended-Asm.html isn't outdated
08:30:20 <fizzie> You can cast any pointer to char*, so assuming that "T1 to T2&" reinterpret_cast statement is true, that should be fine.
08:30:31 <fizzie> It looks real bad, though.
08:30:51 <fizzie> s/any pointer/any pointer to object type/ or whatever.
08:35:06 <fizzie> If you want an undefined-behaviour-but-works-for-me solution, here's one:
08:35:30 <fizzie> struct tref { T& r; tref(T& t) : r(t) {} }; tref r(obj); return *(T**)&r;
08:36:24 <fizzie> (It assumes a reference is really just a disguised pointer with the same representation.)
08:37:36 <kmc> ah very good
08:38:50 <kmc> well it also assumes something about the layout of that struct
08:39:07 <fizzie> Yes, but at least in C the first member is guaranteed to be at the same address as the struct itself.
08:39:29 <kmc> i doubt that's true in C++
08:39:36 <kmc> won't some compilers put a vtable pointer in the first field
08:39:56 <kmc> there must be some compiler which produces vtables unconditionally ;)
08:41:08 <fizzie> Well, you could struct tref { T& r; tref(T& t) : r(t) {} }; tref r(obj); T* p; memcpy(&p, (char*)&r + offsetof(tref, r), sizeof *p); return p; instead, assuming 'offsetof' still exists in C++ land.
08:41:31 <kmc> ooh, i bet offsetof is broken for members which overload operator&
08:42:21 <fizzie> The simple implementation would be, that's true.
08:42:59 <fizzie> "Because of the extended functionality of structs in C++, in this language, the use of offsetof is restricted to "POD types", which for classes, more or less corresponds to the C concept of struct (although non-derived classes with only public non-virtual member functions and with no constructor and/or destructor would also qualify as POD)." says a random reference.
08:44:02 <kmc> pod people
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08:46:35 <fizzie> Yes, it in fact does not seem to work.
08:46:38 <fizzie> tmp.cc:10: warning: invalid access to non-static data member ‘address_of(T&) [with T = foo]::tref::r’ of NULL object
08:46:41 <fizzie> tmp.cc:10: warning: (perhaps the ‘offsetof’ macro was used incorrectly)
08:48:44 <fizzie> Another too-clever-by-half version: struct tref { T& r; char c; tref(T& t) : r(t) { } }; tref r(obj); return *(T**)(&r.c - sizeof(T*));
08:48:52 <fizzie> This time it assumes no padding after the T& r.
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08:53:45 <fizzie> Okay, this is how the "struct to first member" rule survives in C++: "A pointer to a POD-struct object, suitably converted using reinterpret_cast, points to its initial member -- and vice versa. [Note: There might therefore be unnamed padding within a POD-struct object, but not at its beginning, --]"
08:55:29 <fizzie> "A POD-struct is an aggregate class that has no non-static data members of type non-POD-struct, non-POD-union (or array of such types) or reference, and has no user-declared copy assignment operator and no user-declared destructor."
08:55:47 <fizzie> Sadly, there is a reference member, so tref is not a POD-struct.
08:56:27 <fizzie> Oh well, the ref-is-a-pointer was already unambiguously undefined.
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09:00:44 <kmc> struct treif { ... }
09:04:05 <kmc> shachaf: do i get multi-lingual pun points
09:07:04 <shachaf> kmc: C/C++ *and* Objective-C/C++?
09:08:08 <kmc> C++ and Hebrew
09:08:34 <kmc> also we're talking about type punning so it's like, a meta-pun, man
09:08:38 <kmc> oh you're right
09:09:44 <kmc> wait, is this how i send bold in irssi?
09:10:04 <shachaf> well, if you were using irssi
09:10:15 <kmc> it's not wysiwyg
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09:11:18 <shachaf> kmc: That's a depressing rainbow.
09:11:26 <shachaf> Please in future for use brighter colors.
09:11:34 <itidus21> that's a bold statement to make
09:12:17 <shachaf> kmc: Bilingual puns aren't cool. You know what's cool? 2000-lingual puns.
09:12:23 <kmc> right you are
09:12:52 <kmc> > text "\0035hello"
09:13:13 <kmc> > text "\x035hello"
09:13:45 <lambdabot> No quotes match. The more you drive -- the dumber you get.
09:14:29 <shachaf> Maximal munch is the best thing, I'm told.
09:16:25 <kmc> all you can eat
09:17:14 <shachaf> Yes, itidus21. All you can eat in a month.
09:17:27 <itidus21> that would be bad for my health
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09:22:03 <kmc> i've never had KFC
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09:24:11 <itidus21> i knew there was something fishy about that comment of mine
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09:24:43 <shachaf> kmc: If you like KFC so much why don't you marry her?
09:25:15 <itidus21> oerjan: when i said it i thought.. why does "kfc pieces" sound weird to say?
09:25:22 <shachaf> I expect I'll only get myself deeper into bad-pun-debt here.
09:25:34 <kmc> oh i thought that was a joke about me growing up in the midwest
09:25:40 <kmc> but now i realize it is a joke on my IRC nick
09:25:44 <kmc> that's much more sensible
09:25:47 <oerjan> itidus21: i suggest you use the spork up in the topic
09:26:17 <oerjan> you're allowed to wash it first
09:26:18 <Vorpal> hm what is that Russian GPS equivalent called now again?
09:26:18 <lambdabot> Vorpal: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
09:26:23 <shachaf> KFC is, like, the female version of you.
09:26:30 <lambdabot> olsner said 3h 26m ago: open a new tab (or close all open ones) and you'll get a new start page ... restarting mini will ususally resume in the state it was before closing
09:26:40 <shachaf> kmc: Did you see the /dev/{zero,null} logic gate thing?
09:26:41 <kmc> Vorpal: GLONASS
09:26:53 <kmc> but actually ГЛОНАСС
09:27:00 <kmc> shachaf: no
09:27:05 <shachaf> http://www.linusakesson.net/programming/pipelogic/index.php
09:27:06 <Vorpal> kmc, stop showing off :P
09:27:11 <kmc> yes, did see
09:27:20 <kmc> Vorpal: yes, my incredible copy pasting from wikipedia skills
09:27:33 <Vorpal> anyone knows if GLONASS operates on a frequency that works better indoors than GPS?
09:27:37 <shachaf> What, you copied and pasted?
09:27:46 <shachaf> Get a Russian keyboard like the rest of us?
09:27:47 <Vorpal> my new phone supports both and it can get a fix indoors in a matter of seconds
09:27:48 <kmc> i don't have compose key codes for cyrillic
09:27:56 <itidus21> the words kfc and kmc are now ruined for me :D
09:28:02 <Vorpal> which is pretty impressive
09:28:19 <kmc> shachaf: -_-
09:28:21 <kmc> Vorpal: nice
09:28:23 <kmc> where are you?
09:28:29 <kmc> i thought glonass coverage is much better in russia
09:28:31 <kmc> ok, close enough
09:28:43 <shachaf> кмц: Ыоу дон'т хаже ацтуал кеыбоард лаыоут свитцхинг сет уп?
09:28:44 <kmc> shachaf: preved medved
09:28:54 <kmc> shachaf: reading that is painful
09:28:55 * shachaf ис цхеатинг, оф цоурсе, витх тхе пхонетиц лаыоут.
09:29:22 <Vorpal> kmc, well it must not be as attenuated by walls I guess. Which kind of sucks for me, I did my bachelor thesis on indoor positioning systems using WLAN XD
09:29:27 <oerjan> kmc: i doubt glonass is in geostationary orbit (gps certainly isn't), so why should it be better in russia?
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09:29:56 <kmc> oerjan: you have set up a false dichotomy there
09:30:07 <kmc> there are many orbits other than geostationary which cover some area better than others
09:30:21 <oerjan> well i guess straight north-south would...
09:30:23 <kmc> molniya orbits for example
09:30:30 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Molniya.jpg
09:31:11 <kmc> http://www.oxts.com/default.asp?pageRef=134
09:31:33 <fizzie> I still haven't fixed ^rainbow vs. multibyte.
09:31:46 <Vorpal> anyway, this is a wood building (with mexitegel (a Swedish product, according to wikipedia it is only known as "calcium silicate bricks" elsewhere) on the outside)
09:31:50 <oerjan> ...actually given one of my math articles, i should have suspected that. even if the article used a torus, not a sphere.
09:31:58 <kmc> actually i really like that rainbow of unicode replacement characters
09:32:01 <Vorpal> I would have to test it in a concrete building at some point too
09:32:03 <itidus21> im cheating with google translate tho
09:32:16 <fizzie> The other rainbow is made from Unicode block drawing characters.
09:32:18 <fungot> ████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████ ...too much output!
09:32:30 <kmc> needs more cat
09:32:34 <Vorpal> fizzie, how is black in that rainbow?
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09:32:49 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's the colour of magic, maybe?
09:32:52 <itidus21> ^rainbow в Советской России, водку пьет вы
09:33:10 <Vorpal> itidus21, I don't think it does multi-byte correctly
09:33:23 <itidus21> в Советской России, водку пьет вы
09:33:24 <kmc> in before shachaf says i will call someone racist
09:33:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, hey you should write an UTF-8 library in befunge!
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09:34:06 <kmc> itidus21: 8======Д
09:35:06 <fizzie> Vorpal: Been suggested. Waiting for suitable amounts of free time and/or boredom, I suppose. I can't just decode UTF-8 to Befunge cells and back (even though they're certainly wide enough) without also upping the brainfuck cell size from 8 bits.
09:35:24 <shachaf> fizzie: You should make it 16 bits.
09:35:28 <shachaf> That'll hold any Unicode character.
09:35:37 <fizzie> Though it'd at least make ISO-8859-1 work properly.
09:36:04 <Vorpal> yeah ISO-8859-1 is enough for the important Nordic languages
09:36:44 <kmc> what about ISO-3103-1980
09:36:49 <itidus21> Машина Тьюринга является мнимым машина разработана Алана Тьюринга, который выполняет вычисления.
09:37:42 <Vorpal> btw importing vCalendar 1.0 files into an android device is painful as I found out when I tried to import the calendar from my old phone. What I did was importing it into evolution, then exporting a backup of evolution and extracting the data as a iCalendar file from that backup, then import that backup
09:38:00 <itidus21> i secretly wish i knew russian
09:38:11 <kmc> itidus21: your secret is safe with me
09:38:15 <Vorpal> itidus21, no you don't. You told us, it isn't secret
09:38:35 <Vorpal> and it is in the logs now too
09:39:03 <fizzie> ISO-8859-1 lacks Š, š, Ž, ž which I think are used sometimes in loan words in Finnish/Estonian, and I think at least one of them is in one of the Sami alphabets.
09:39:40 <fizzie> Also œ, which is important for typing œrjan.
09:39:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, isn't it Örjan in proper language?
09:39:57 <itidus21> i am pretending that expressing interest in things makes me a better person
09:40:08 <fizzie> Vorpal: I would assume it's more of an ø.
09:40:20 <Vorpal> shachaf, they use that silly ø instead of the proper ö
09:40:25 <fizzie> Which of course is in latin-1, but anyway.
09:40:34 <shachaf> kmc: You should get multiple keyboard layouts set up!
09:40:47 <shachaf> Then you can just press Shift-Shift to switch layouts.
09:40:48 <kmc> i already have
09:40:52 <kmc> not like that though
09:41:00 <kmc> what program handles that?
09:41:03 <fizzie> Apparently (wikipedia) œ is "used in the modern scholarly orthography of Old West Norse, representing the long vowel /øː/, contrasting with ø, which represents the short vowel /ø/".
09:41:33 <shachaf> The Windows tradition is to use Alt-Shift.
09:41:44 <shachaf> But I don't think you can easily get X to act exactly like Windows.
09:42:06 <shachaf> (Because it will switch on keydown of the Shift, making a lot of keyboard shortcuts impossible.)
09:42:24 <shachaf> Also the Windows tradition is that right-Ctrl-Shift will switch to an RTL language and move your cursor to the right side of the input field.
09:42:30 <shachaf> And left-Ctrl-Shift the reverse.
09:42:38 <shachaf> I don't think there's an equivalent. :-(
09:43:15 <fizzie> I also don't think xkb's built-in keyboard layout switching can do shift-shift, unless by that you mean "both shifts at the same time", not a two-key thing.
09:43:26 <shachaf> I mean both at the same time.
09:43:36 <fizzie> Oh, okay; then it's the grp:shifts_toggle option.
09:43:50 <shachaf> However, left-Shift-right-Shift will cycle in one direction, and right-Shift-left-Shift will cycle in the other.
09:44:06 <shachaf> Hmm, maybe I should refer to those keys as << and >>
09:44:16 <fizzie> Though I think in many cases it's still the desktop environment doing the switching, not xkb itself.
09:44:37 <shachaf> fizzie: Doesn't the desktop environment just tell xkb to use grp:whatever?
09:45:06 <shachaf> For example when you configure GNOME to behave that way, it generates an xkb configuration file and runs xkb with it.
09:45:11 <fizzie> It could, but obviously it could also use whatever mechanism it uses for all other keyboard shortcuts, and then just tell xkb to switch.
09:45:13 <shachaf> (This fact brought to you by: strace.)
09:45:34 <fizzie> I mean, that would let it use any kind of thing instead of just what xkb supports.
09:45:55 <fizzie> (I don't know what they actually do.)
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09:46:52 <fizzie> The GNOME "Options..." menu does smell a bit like it's more or less just a mapping from xkb into a graphical thing, that's twue.
09:49:02 <fizzie> Also someone's configured "both alt keys together" to switch layouts on this box, but there's just one Alt key. The other side is an AltGr and doesn't seem to count.
09:49:13 <fizzie> (Not that I have more than just two Finnish layouts there, so...)
09:49:42 <shachaf> Do you even need a Finnish layout?
09:49:53 <shachaf> I once tried to use a laptop with a Finnish layout and it was horrible.
09:50:19 <Vorpal> shachaf, uh the Finnish layout is basically the same as the Swedish one
09:50:21 <fizzie> I'm too used to it. There's quite a bit of AltGr'ing when programming.
09:50:27 <shachaf> But I can type the characters with AltGr on a US layout.
09:50:33 <Vorpal> and it isn't all that terrible except for the AltGr-stuff
09:51:22 <Vorpal> shachaf, would you consider a layout where the letter e required altgr to type?
09:51:51 <fizzie> The amount of Finnish I write with this keyboard does make äöå kinda superfluous. But since they're printed on it...
09:52:11 <Vorpal> shachaf, I can type all that without altgr
09:52:45 <Vorpal> I don't know /why/ I can type ë without altgr though, there is no use for that in Swedish
09:52:53 <shachaf> Vorpal: Are you Swedish or something?
09:53:16 <shachaf> You should stop being Swedish and be Finnish instead.
09:53:21 <shachaf> That'll solve your keyboard problems.
09:53:33 <Vorpal> shachaf, they use the same layout as Swedish!
09:53:34 <shachaf> I was in Swedishanialand once!
09:53:41 <Vorpal> so that makes no sense
09:53:53 <shachaf> Vorpal: Yes, but the Finns are crazy, so they have an excuse.
09:54:08 <fizzie> Anyway, using the US layout would be a bit strange what with the whole 104-key/105-key difference. What would our <>| key do?
09:54:12 <Vorpal> shachaf, oh come on, only a crazy person could pack things like IKEA
09:54:45 <shachaf> fizzie: Are you complaining about having an *EXTRA* key left over?
09:54:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, they don't have that key?
09:55:05 <fizzie> Vorpal: They have 'z' right next to shift, I believe.
09:55:11 <shachaf> Man, that's just like the good old days!
09:55:18 <kmc> ikea is hax
09:55:40 <kmc> "The groups of companies that form IKEA are all controlled by INGKA Holding ., a Dutch corporation, which in turn is controlled by a tax-exempt, not-for-profit Dutch foundation. The IKEA trademark and concept is controlled by a series of corporations that can be traced to the Netherlands Antilles and to the Interogo Foundation in Liechtenstein."
09:55:55 <fizzie> The broken bar is one of the casualties of ISO-8859-15.
09:55:57 <FireFly> What I wonder is why the norwegian and danish qwerty layouts have their æ and ø buttons swapped, when comparing them to each other
09:56:10 <shachaf> FireFly: Are you Nordanish?
09:56:29 <shachaf> Why is everyone Swedish? :-(
09:56:34 <kmc> basically the entire billion euro company is owned by a "nonprofit" whose mission is "To promote and support innovation in the field of architectural and interior design."
09:56:34 <fizzie> FireFly: I asked that very question here on this channel, and I think we had a Norwegian present, but I don't think there was an answer.
09:56:41 <Vorpal> kmc, it was originally Swedish though, and it is actually owned by the same person who founded it still afaik. There are a few steps in between though
09:56:48 <kmc> which in turn gives "grants" to IKEA's designers
09:56:55 <kmc> it is super sketchy
09:57:05 <kmc> it is the wealthiest nonprofit in the world
09:57:19 <Vorpal> I don't think it is actually non-profit though
09:57:34 <Vorpal> maybe legally, but not in any other sense
09:57:51 <kmc> that's what i'm getting at >_<
09:58:10 <fizzie> I'm under the impression that foundations mostly exist for shady tax business purposes.
09:58:50 <fizzie> Some of my wife's friends that have amounts of money (I don't recall details) have been doing some foundation-owned-apartments whatever thingamajiks.
09:59:09 <shachaf> Hmm, IKEA has <300 stores.
09:59:20 <shachaf> For some reason I thought it would be more.
09:59:27 <Vorpal> shachaf, 300? That is a lot
09:59:30 <shachaf> I mean, I live next door to one!
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10:00:17 <kmc> shachaf: huh, me too
10:00:26 <kmc> (thought it was more)
10:00:30 <kmc> one time i took the boat to ikea
10:00:47 <shachaf> kmc: You don't live next door to one? :-(
10:01:04 <shachaf> I'm told the EPA IKEA is one of the better things that happened to EPA.
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10:01:28 <kmc> Vorpal: IKEA in new york city is down by the waterfront, in an area which is kind of annoying to get to by subway
10:01:29 <fizzie> FireFly: The Finnish/Swedish keyboard has this §½ key at the top-left; the Danish layout has the same characters, but they're swapped; it's ½ raw, and § with shift. They just have to do everything backwards. That might explain the ø-æ thing.
10:01:32 <shachaf> Electronic Powder Anthology
10:01:34 <kmc> so they run a free boat from Manhattan
10:01:49 <kmc> actually it's $5 in the to-IKEA direction, but you get a $5 gift card
10:01:56 <kmc> in the other direction you just show a receipt
10:02:02 <kmc> and i think it's still free-free at weekends
10:02:17 <shachaf> kmc: No public-transportation tourism for you!
10:02:26 <Vorpal> FireFly, fizzie: Well it is totally in line with their pronunciation and their counting so...
10:02:31 <Vorpal> yeah, they do things backwards
10:02:51 <shachaf> Vorpal: EPA is East Palo Alto.
10:02:52 <kmc> shachaf: the Staten Island Ferry is still entirely free!
10:02:58 <fizzie> The Helsinki metropolitan region IKEAs have free bus transportation to/from them.
10:02:59 <shachaf> It's where silicon valley ends and the murders begin.
10:03:02 <kmc> SI threatened to secede in order to get that sweet deal
10:03:02 <Vorpal> shachaf, and what is Palo Alto?
10:03:08 <kmc> (I'm not sure why NYC was so sad to see them go...)
10:03:13 <Vorpal> iirc their name for "20" is basically "half-forty"
10:03:17 <kmc> honestly they should trade SI to New Jersey in exchange for Hudson County
10:03:37 <shachaf> kmc: Should I go and see El Palo Alto?
10:04:06 <kmc> oh, the big tree?
10:04:14 <fizzie> (There's lines from the city centre to both Espoo and Vantaa IKEAs, and also from Sello (a big shopping mall in a "centre"-ish location in Espoo) to the Espoo IKEA and from Itäkeskus (ditto for Vantaa) to the Vantaa IKEA.)
10:04:18 <kmc> i guess so?
10:04:22 <kmc> i saw the biggest tree in somerville
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10:04:26 <fizzie> Admittedly it's just something like three or four times per day. But still.
10:04:28 <kmc> so it would be, like, hypocritical if i told you not to
10:04:43 <shachaf> I was in Yosemite and they had pretty big trees there.
10:05:31 <shachaf> kmc: Does Somerville actually have trees?
10:06:50 <fizzie> They have some (two, I think) product-testing robots on display at the Espoo IKEA. IIRC, there's a thing that repeatedly sits on a chair, and a thing that repeatedly opens and closes a cupboard door.
10:07:07 <shachaf> According to paulgraham.com, California Ave. in Palo Alto used to have oak trees until a few years ago.
10:07:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh yeah I seen those as well
10:07:20 <fizzie> Also some numbers on to how many sittings they test their chairs, or something.
10:09:08 <oerjan> <Vorpal> iirc their name for "20" is basically "half-forty" <-- erm no, the danish madness doesn't start until 50.
10:10:31 <shachaf> > fix $ ("half "++) . ("twice" ++)
10:10:34 <lambdabot> "half twicehalf twicehalf twicehalf twicehalf twicehalf twicehalf twicehalf...
10:11:34 <kmc> shachaf: do you have a job these days?
10:11:39 <kmc> i remember you talking about an image processing thing
10:11:40 <oerjan> and also, 50 = half-60, 60 = thric(e-20)
10:12:25 <shachaf> The CV thing was just for a couple of weeks.
10:12:29 <Vorpal> oerjan, what was "half-fjers" then? (not sure about the spelling)
10:12:44 <Vorpal> oerjan, oh and what is "fjers"?
10:12:51 <shachaf> Now I'm doing a different thing -- life is too complicated. :-(
10:12:53 <Vorpal> oh so it didn't even make sense
10:13:11 <FireFly> "half" means ten less, obviously
10:13:16 <oerjan> sure it makes sense. 70 = half-80, 80 = four-t(imes 20)
10:13:26 <Vorpal> FireFly, rather than half?
10:13:29 <kmc> shachaf: what's it like?
10:13:33 <kmc> and why does it complicate
10:13:43 <Vorpal> oerjan, so the "half"-bit means?
10:13:48 <oerjan> Vorpal: it's probably half in the same sense as clock hours
10:13:54 <kmc> http://www.jerkcity.com/jerkcity512.html
10:14:34 <shachaf> kmc: It remains to be seen.
10:15:47 <oerjan> also, 90 = half-five-t(imes 20), although 100 is just "hundre"
10:16:13 <fizzie> oerjan: Don't the French do 80 as '4*20' too? And 75 as '60+15'? Something like that, anyway. (I didn't do any French.)
10:16:44 <shachaf> Just like Americans say "fourscore".
10:17:06 <oerjan> quatre-vingts quinze [sp]
10:17:14 <fizzie> shachaf: And "threescore years and ten" of life.
10:18:01 <shachaf> fizzie: threescore years and ten or threescore and ten years?
10:18:24 <fizzie> "The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away." --KJV
10:18:44 <shachaf> That's not Americans, that's KJV.
10:19:01 <fizzie> Well, you have your own share of KJV-fanatics, don't you?
10:19:12 <kmc> hey careful, that's a copyrighted work
10:19:24 <fizzie> Possibly more than the British do.
10:19:26 <oerjan> nine score years ago, americans spoke like KJV
10:19:38 <fizzie> Vorpal: A bible edition.
10:19:50 <fizzie> The One True Edition, according to some.
10:20:15 <fizzie> It's divinely inspired so it's infallible, or something like that. Unlike later editions that match source texts better.
10:20:27 <shachaf> Or the source text itself!
10:20:36 <shachaf> Being Finnish, I can read the bible in the original.
10:21:07 <fizzie> Also called "Authorized Version".
10:23:34 <oerjan> Alussa Jumala loi taivaan ja maan
10:24:03 <fizzie> Alussa oli suo, kuokka -- ja Jussi.
10:24:26 <fizzie> Also this should explain about KJV:
10:24:28 <oerjan> alas, google translate seems to have learned that exactly.
10:24:30 <fizzie> "Inspiration is when God takes a blank piece of paper (papyrus, vellum, etc.) and uses men to write His words.
10:24:33 <fizzie> Preservation is when God takes those words already written and uses men to preserve them to today.
10:24:36 <fizzie> Both of these actions are DIVINE and are assured by God as recorded in Psalm 12:6,7.
10:24:40 <fizzie> 6 "The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
10:24:43 <fizzie> 7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.""
10:25:21 <shachaf> Deewiant: Is there a right #esoteric?
10:26:08 <fizzie> You can set errno to E_LORD when divine intervention inhibits your code.
10:27:01 <Sgeo> Will Squeak or Pharo ever have decent namespacing, or ways to prevent conflicts with monkeypatching?
10:29:41 <fizzie> Also KJV is better than the originals because there are three occurrances of "translation" in KJV, and in all those cases the translation is better than the original: the "translation" of the kingdom of Isreal over to David, the "translation" of a sinner into Christianity, and the "translation" of Enoch to heaven. In all these cases, the translation was an improvement, so it must also apply to ...
10:29:48 <fizzie> ... the KJV. (Also other editions have not used the word 'translation' in those places, which means they are... bad, or something.)
10:29:51 <fizzie> (I read the above from the Internet.)
10:29:59 <oerjan> wikipedia seems to go out of their way not to call him that
10:30:04 <fizzie> (I think it's called logic.)
10:30:25 <fizzie> Of course if you "worship education" you may disagree.
10:30:33 <fizzie> (Source: http://av1611.com/kjbp/faq/translation-better.html )
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10:31:05 <fizzie> I've heard the name, yes.
10:31:07 <sebbu> fizzie, does your divine intervention contains unknown behavior ?
10:31:48 <Phantom_Hoover> There's one point where they interpret Jesus telling his disciples to cast their fishing nets on the right of the boat as an endorsement of conservatism.
10:32:20 * oerjan expects the conservative bible project to contain "If someone strikes you on the right cheek, strike him down _hard_."
10:32:33 <fizzie> I think I read some comparison review text thing about it too.
10:33:00 <Phantom_Hoover> They did get rid of the "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" bit because it was liberal anti-capital punishment claptrap.;
10:33:07 <fizzie> "Express Free Market Parables" is one of their guidelines.
10:33:20 <Vorpal> argh having an uneven number of icons you want on a given home screen on android is annoying, no symmetry is possible :/
10:35:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm wait, I wonder what they did with the bit where Jesus gets all angry at the shopkeepers.
10:37:45 <kmc> "A Colbert Report interview featured this project"
10:37:48 <kmc> they seem mighty proud of it
10:38:06 <fizzie> "Proposed Conservative Translation: They entered Jerusalem and Jesus entered the Temple. He threw out the vendors and toppled the moneychangers' tables and dove-sellers' seats."
10:38:13 <fizzie> Doesn't sound very different there.
10:38:52 <sebbu> i remember seeing a difference between 2 versions of one of the english bible where the meaning was *changed*
10:39:02 <mroman> >+<++]> appears to be a solution for 128 for interpreters that don't check brackets :)
10:39:22 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: I do like it how they've annotated the "And if a woman divorces her husband, and marries another, she commits adultery.'" verse with an "Analysis" note of "This is the real answer to the question of divorce."
10:39:26 <Vorpal> mroman, what would the ] jump to?
10:39:27 <sebbu> the bit which said in which cases you'ld have to be punished
10:39:33 <mroman> Vorpal: Jump to the beginning.
10:39:34 <sebbu> and what punition should be expected
10:39:43 <Vorpal> mroman, right, so not an actual solution then
10:39:52 <kmc> mroman: fish!
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10:40:06 <sebbu> don't remember the exact reference
10:41:06 <sebbu> but i remember something like "if you hit a pregnant woman", which originally included causing miscariage, but now only include causing stillborn
10:41:40 <sebbu> so the first case is no longer punished
10:42:05 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Also the Matthew version of the temple scene carries a note "Jesus does not mean to say that all commerce is inherently evil. He does make the point that commercial activity in the Temple can never be proper." And the Luke version with "The kind of buying and selling going on was not ordinary commerce, but trade in sacrifices and special coins which exploited religious values ...
10:42:11 <fizzie> ... for personal gain by non-believers."
10:47:02 <fizzie> They've also reworded the "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God" bit by changing the "rich man" to "an idle miser".
10:52:08 <Sgeo> .......why in the world did I have any trouble understanding Scala's unapply?
10:53:06 * itidus21 generalizes Sgeo's question into why in the world does anyone have trouble understanding anything designed by man
10:54:25 <itidus21> one reason may be that any attempt to explain and record civilization in infinite detail would bring civilization to a grinding halt
10:54:53 <itidus21> thus we must choose our queries and expend some energy in research
10:56:39 <itidus21> like.. suppose that someone wanted to walk across the room.. recording all the details of this act.. they would perhaps photograph all their footsteps.. but in order to record the act of photographing their footsteps they would install a mirror.. but to record the act of installing a mirror they would reach that endless recursion thing
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11:05:58 <Sgeo> What languages are there with strong static typing but with a highly dynamic environment?
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12:27:17 <mroman> Sgeo: What do you mean exactly wyth 'dynamic environment'?
12:27:31 <mroman> Native support for dynamic code loading?
12:27:59 <Sgeo> It being as comfortable as possible to modify a program while it's running
12:28:51 <fizzie> And the strong static typing?
12:31:18 <fizzie> I'm not sure Erlang's dynamic loading stuffs are all *that* comfortable, either. It can be done, sure, but (AFAIK) you need to design for that when writing the program.
12:33:22 <kmc> erlang doesn't really have static typing
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12:33:30 <kmc> it has an optional static checker that some people use, which can catch some stuff
12:34:40 <fizzie> Things found when googling for "statically typed Smalltalk", which I suppose is kind of what the question was all about: Strongtalk, the language with the best name.
12:34:50 <fizzie> Can't go wrong with Strongtalk.
12:57:17 <Sgeo> fizzie, hasn't Strongtalk been sort of neglected?
12:57:39 <fizzie> Sounds very likely. But the name is still great.
12:58:12 <fizzie> (I see latest news are about the open-sourced VM from 2006.)
12:58:43 <fizzie> "But with the release of the virtual-machine source code, a whole new world of possibilities has opened up. What will become of Strongtalk? Now, the answer is finally in the community's hands!"
12:58:52 <fizzie> Apparently the answer was a resounding "meh".
13:01:15 <Vorpal> aiee, this project uses ant. Oh the pain to build it
13:01:26 <fizzie> Yes, you may need to type "ant".
13:01:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, err, more than that, I need to configure the location of the android sdk somehow, since it complained about not finding it
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13:04:19 <fizzie> Sounds terrible. My condolences.
13:05:14 <Vorpal> also .svn is annoying. It messes up tab complete if you do something like cd foo/<TAB> if foo contains just one visible directory under it.
13:05:33 <Vorpal> this is annoying when navigating java source, com/foo/bar/xxyz and so on
13:07:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, do you happen to know how to specify a main class when using java -jar?
13:07:16 <fizzie> You mean, override the one that's in the manifest?
13:07:34 <Vorpal> fizzie, yes, or in this case there isn't one in the manifest
13:07:52 <fizzie> You can always just "java -cp blah.jar MainClass".
13:08:21 <fizzie> I don't think -jar does much more than adds to classpath and picks up the Main-Class attribute.
13:08:24 <Deewiant> Vorpal: "set match-hidden-files off" in .inputrc.
13:08:33 <Vorpal> Deewiant, oh nice, thanks
13:08:51 <Vorpal> hm java.lang.ClassNotFoundException, okaaay
13:09:02 <fizzie> I've been annoyed at the '.svn' directories in one school Java thing too.
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13:09:43 <Vorpal> Deewiant, having a .inputrc will still load /etc/inputrc right? No need to include or duplicate settings?
13:10:07 <Vorpal> also hm, what about tab completing when I *did* type a dot,
13:10:28 * Vorpal reads bash manual page
13:10:33 <Deewiant> You might need "$include /etc/inputrc" according to man bash.
13:11:00 <Deewiant> And that just changes things so that you need to type the dot. If you do, completion works as usual.
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13:11:12 <Vorpal> gah I don't remember how to reload inputrc on the fly
13:12:58 <fizzie> Deewiant: Wow, my 'man bash' seems to be pretty confused: "match-hidden-files: This variable, when set to On, causes readline to match files whose names begin with a `.' (hidden files) when performing filename completion, unless the leading `.' is supplied by the user in the filename to be completed."
13:13:16 <fizzie> So it won't match hidden files if I supply that dot.
13:14:29 <Vorpal> hm anyone know a good open source QR code generator that runs locally on your computer. I know there are various web based ones, but that is a security issue since my use case is transferring passwords to a phone from a laptop or desktop
13:14:30 <fizzie> I suppose it might have earlier been written for the 'Off' case, or something.
13:14:32 <Deewiant> That seems to say that when the variable is On, .-names are completed automatically unless you supplied the dot yourself, in which case they are also completed as per usual.
13:15:01 <fizzie> I don't see that last part in it.
13:15:21 <Deewiant> Vorpal: I've used 'qrencode' in Arch.
13:15:27 <fizzie> I mean, "match files -- unless the leading '.' is supplied" sounds more like it wouldn't match them if you supply them.
13:15:37 <fizzie> I've used something with 'qr' in the name.
13:16:07 <Vorpal> well that seems a pretty obvious choice for naming such a product
13:16:21 <fizzie> It might've been the same thing.
13:16:58 <Deewiant> fizzie: Yeah, true; I was thinking that when the . is already there that part of the completion would've already taken place, but it does say that it wouldn't match at all if the dot's there.
13:18:11 <Vorpal> hm isn't QR typed? I see no options to set the type
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13:30:03 <fizzie> There is a mode, but that only determines the character set. And the error correction level. I'd assume most programs can set those.
13:31:16 <fizzie> I guess it might also just pick the optimal mode.
13:34:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, yeah, I guess readers just guess if it is text, urls, or contact info or whatever
13:36:16 <fizzie> Yes, there's no real content-type sort of field.
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13:38:42 <fizzie> I would guess a large proportion of "live" QR codes are URLs.
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15:09:14 <mroman> all already known though.
15:10:43 <mroman> 85,171,127,129 are all possible in 10 Instructions.
15:13:26 <mroman> Are the constants on the esowiki human-made?
15:13:32 <mroman> or how were they found?
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15:29:31 <Sgeo> tswett, Phantom_Hoover, there's been updates. They're not visible on the left-hand side of MSPA
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15:35:07 <Vorpal> mroman, how far are you going to go in length?
15:35:45 <Vorpal> also, how many computers (and cores) are you distributing the brute forcing on?
15:35:49 <mroman> Vorpal: Well, the programm is programmed to run until 256 Solutions have been found.
15:36:03 <mroman> which means there is no limit to length actually.
15:36:16 <mroman> But after a length of 32 all solutions *should* be found.
15:36:33 <mroman> And I haven't found a performant way to distribute it.
15:36:40 <Vorpal> iirc you said 5 years? Was that for one core then?
15:36:51 <mroman> I limited it to 1500 Cycles for each Brainfuck program
15:37:02 <mroman> spawning threads is more expensive than just run the few cycles ;)
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15:37:18 <Vorpal> mroman, let each thread run a large set of programs
15:37:26 <sebbu> http://asiajin.com/blog/2009/09/22/uroboros-programming-with-11-programming-languages/ :)
15:37:35 <mroman> which means that currently it runs on 1 core
15:37:49 <Vorpal> mroman, like have the threads running and give them each jobs maybe 1000 programs to test from a shared work queue
15:38:08 <Vorpal> that seems the optimal way to do it for a single-computer situation
15:38:09 <mroman> Which means 6046617 programs per minute
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15:38:36 <mroman> which means 2.5 years ;)
15:38:59 <Vorpal> okay so maybe not 1000 but instead 100000 programs per batch
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15:39:12 <Vorpal> mroman, you could easily cut that if you have a multi-core CPU
15:39:36 <Vorpal> or even multiple computers. I have cycles to spare if you write a distributed version (Brainfuck@HOME?)
15:39:42 <Sgeo> tswett, I don't see char select screen on the left
15:39:59 <mroman> That'd be cool @Brainfuck@HOME
15:40:07 <tswett> Sgeo: you don't? Here, it says 06/26/12 - "Select character."
15:40:30 <Sgeo> 06/21/12 - "==>"
15:40:30 <Vorpal> mroman, anyway my point is that this seems like a trivial thing to parallelize.
15:40:42 <Vorpal> oh and, how are you enumerating the programs
15:40:45 <mroman> But I don't have a multi core at home
15:40:52 <mroman> so I did not really bother to try to hard ;)
15:41:06 <Vorpal> mroman, I have a 4 core 3.4 GHz 64-bit core i7 (with hyper threading on top of the 4 cores)
15:41:33 <Vorpal> it is sandy bridge, so not the very last generation any longer
15:41:54 <Vorpal> I can't think of a /simple/ way to enumerate the set of *valid* programs
15:42:07 <mroman> The easiest thing probably would be to give "ranges of programs" to clients @Brainfuck@HOME
15:42:16 <Vorpal> why the extra @ at the start?
15:42:21 <mroman> but we'd need to find a way to verify that they actually run it.
15:42:34 <mroman> Vorpal: It's like @Vorpal ;)
15:42:38 <mroman> Marks the topic of my sentence
15:42:58 <Vorpal> and yes obviously you give ranges of programs
15:43:10 <Vorpal> that is what you would do for multi-core scheduling too
15:43:24 <mroman> But if I give them away I need to be sure that they were run.
15:43:54 <mroman> Else somebodys client might crash in the middle
15:44:00 <mroman> and we'd miss solutions :D
15:44:34 <Vorpal> you would have to write the program to keep track of where it left off. Presumably track which chunk you got to
15:44:51 <Vorpal> anyway where did you get the 2.5 year figure from? The length of the longest of the known solutions?
15:44:55 <mroman> Still, some bad guy could just say "Yeah, I tested that range."
15:45:15 <mroman> @longest known solution
15:45:32 <Vorpal> mroman, riiight, brainfuck research is a high profile target for sabotaging
15:45:56 <mroman> I could write something with no security checks ;)
15:45:57 <Vorpal> dammit, I need to find a good icon for this...
15:46:01 <mroman> If you don't mind runing python :)
15:46:09 <Vorpal> (android status bar notification, ICS style)
15:46:29 <Vorpal> you are number crunching in python?
15:47:00 <Vorpal> what you are doing is essentially a number crunching task. Python is /not/ suited for that
15:47:11 <Vorpal> this is one of the few areas I would actually suggest using C
15:47:17 <mroman> I will rewrite it in C ;)
15:47:36 <Vorpal> you will probably cut the time by a lot that way
15:48:49 <Vorpal> not sure if openmp would be useful for this
16:35:11 <Vorpal> hm checking out the android source code is taking forever
16:35:28 <Vorpal> (and all I wanted was getting at the system icons!)
16:35:56 <mroman> my c version currently crashes when compiled with gcc -O9
16:36:15 <Vorpal> everything higher than -O3 is the same as -O3
16:36:27 <Vorpal> unless they changed something very recently
16:36:48 <Vorpal> (I just checked on gcc 4.4.3)
16:36:54 <mroman> well, it crashes with -O3
16:37:40 <Vorpal> mroman, try valgrind on the -O0 binary and see if the program does anything stupid (that might not cause issues with -O0 or -O1 perhaps)
16:38:06 <Vorpal> if that doesn't help I would suggest compiling with -O2 -ggdb3 to be able to at least see which function it crashes in
16:39:02 <AnotherTest> mroman: is this true for all programs you try to compile?
16:39:45 <mroman> I'm actually surprised it does not crash with -O1
16:40:11 <Vorpal> AnotherTest, so not just a long time user testing with some unusual irc client setup?
16:40:24 <Vorpal> your nick /sounded/ like that :P
16:40:41 <AnotherTest> I have got that reaction from a number of members here :p
16:41:04 <Vorpal> yeah well I seen people test using irc with telnet and what not before
16:41:18 <Vorpal> iirc zzo used to use telnet for irc until he wrote his own client even
16:41:36 <mroman> with a segmentation fault.
16:41:38 <Vorpal> mroman, inspect = print?
16:41:57 <Vorpal> (zzo's client is probably the only irc client with an option to turn off automatic ping replies!)
16:42:14 <mroman> program[iptr] points to ']' according to gdb
16:42:14 <Vorpal> pretty sure print works in gdb
16:42:18 <Vorpal> at least that is what I used
16:42:24 <mroman> (gdb) inspect program[iptr]
16:42:39 <mroman> so, that seems not to be a cause for a segfault.
16:42:57 <Vorpal> okay this stuff is not helpful without the code. And I'm kind of semi-busy with understanding how Android foreground services work
16:43:00 <AnotherTest> mroman: so it's a specific problem; in that case it's either unexpected behavior or something or a bug in gcc I would say
16:43:12 <Vorpal> android programming is somewhat annoying due to the unusual life cycle of objects
16:43:45 <AnotherTest> mroman: could you paste the part where things go wrong?
16:44:17 <mroman> http://codepad.org/EM1bHFjg
16:44:26 <mroman> goes boom at line 11 with -O2 and higher.
16:45:22 <Vorpal> also this is very annoying to debug: I need to debug what happens when I remove or insert the USB cable
16:45:47 <Vorpal> (I'm writing an app that deals with charging on/off state)
16:46:11 <AnotherTest> I'm not much of a C guy(more C++, forgive me) but I'll try to see if I can find something
16:46:15 <mroman> maybe the error is *in the switch*
16:46:20 <mroman> instead of at switch(program[iptr])
16:46:26 <Vorpal> mroman, I'll take a quick look
16:46:36 <Vorpal> mroman, did you try valgrind yet?
16:46:45 <AnotherTest> I assume program is an array which contains the characters in your source code?
16:46:58 <Vorpal> mroman, if it is a segfault when accessing an array it might be an out-of-bounds access
16:47:17 <Vorpal> (and optimising could confuse gdb about the actual index, I had that happen to me)
16:47:25 <mroman> valgrind doesn't report anything suspicious.
16:47:43 <Vorpal> oh wait your array is on the stack
16:47:44 <mroman> AnotherTest: Yes, program is an array containing the code.
16:47:54 <Vorpal> mroman, for valgrind debugging purposes, malloc the array instead.
16:48:00 <AnotherTest> mroman: is PROG_MAX_STEPS the max. index for sure?
16:48:06 <Vorpal> valgrind can't detect if you overflow into another variable on the stack
16:48:10 <mroman> AnotherTest: That's not an index.
16:48:14 <Vorpal> mroman, that when optimised might be in a register instead
16:48:54 <Vorpal> yeah valgrind is not so useful for stuff on the stack in general
16:49:37 <mroman> AnotherTest: Yes @steps.
16:49:44 <mroman> but steps has nothing to do with array access.
16:49:46 <Vorpal> and if that doesn't help I would try valgrind on the optimised code.
16:50:06 <AnotherTest> mroman: it's not 100% sure yet that it's the array access
16:51:33 <mroman> 18:41 < mroman> $2 = 0x804a008 "<-]+"
16:52:45 <AnotherTest> but I guess that would have nothing to do with optimization
16:52:55 <mroman> http://codepad.org/AaJvlSQl
16:53:11 <AnotherTest> actually, does your code compile with other compilers?
16:53:34 <mroman> line 45 would be the switch(program[iptr])
16:55:11 <AnotherTest> I'm sorry; I don't understand why that code breaks when optimized
16:55:18 <mroman> $3 = <value optimized out>
16:55:24 <mroman> apparently it optimizes away cptr :D
16:56:12 <Vorpal> mroman, presumably it ended up in a register, volatile would likely work to make it show up for debugging
16:56:34 <Vorpal> mroman, also you might want to run valgrind with --db-attach=yes to make it attach on the first of the many errors listed
16:56:41 <mroman> with volatile it does not crash anymore ;)
16:57:00 <Vorpal> volatile is going to slow things down though
16:57:45 <Vorpal> mroman, but it /might/ actually be a compiler bug. I would suggest testing with clang or another non-gcc C compiler.
16:57:47 <AnotherTest> because if optimizations make code break, the code either has a bug or the optimization is bad
16:58:14 <Vorpal> mroman, which gcc version are you using?
16:58:49 <Vorpal> well, I wonder why that happened
16:58:54 <mroman> It crashes still, if I don't make iptr and steps volatile too
16:59:05 <mroman> if I make iptr and steps volatile too it does not crash anymore.
16:59:13 <mroman> cptr -15 is definitely a no-go :)
16:59:16 <Vorpal> mroman, how did cptr end up at -15?
16:59:28 <mroman> That's what I'm trying to find out right now.
16:59:50 <mroman> This means, that it executes case ']'
16:59:59 <mroman> which decreases the pointer in a while(iptr >= 0) loop
16:59:59 <Vorpal> wait a second, your program parses text every time to search for matching [?
17:00:15 <Vorpal> rather than building a tree representing the program and executing that
17:00:17 <mroman> Vorpal: Currently yes, not very optimal though.
17:00:25 <Vorpal> or even keeping a stack of [
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17:01:31 <Vorpal> mroman, personally I would build a quick tree representing the program (possibly doing trivial optimisation at the same time, such as keeping a running count of + and - and merging them, probably not worth doing much more in this case)
17:03:07 <mroman> I'm not sure if that matters for so small programs.
17:03:37 <mroman> *makes a big performance increase
17:03:48 <Vorpal> it is probably easier to implement though
17:03:56 <mroman> iptr--; while(iptr >= 0) { iptr--; }
17:04:05 <mroman> in what case would that leave iptr at -15 o_O
17:05:09 <fizzie> mroman: When iptr is -14.
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17:06:55 <mroman> C's % is not always positive :)
17:09:12 <fizzie> You may want &= 255 for that operation.
17:09:53 <fizzie> Though really, wouldn't it be easier to make cptr an unsigned char too, assuming you can assume CHAR_BIT == 8.
17:10:12 <fizzie> (And if you can do that, doing %= 256 on memory[x] is not useful.)
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17:11:07 <mroman> modulo is slow anyway.
17:11:54 <fizzie> Modulo with a constant 256 is probably going to be optimized to something doing the bitmask plus a few extra instructions to handle the negative case.
17:12:29 <fizzie> I looked at some of the things msvc, clang and gcc turn int i; i /= k; where k is a constant and k = 2^n with an integral n.
17:12:35 <fizzie> They were kind of fancy.
17:13:47 <mroman> it is WAY faster than python at least :)
17:13:53 <fizzie> One of them involved the instruction that sign-extends eax to edx (i.e. fills it with zeros or ones; it's used for preparing for div, which divides the full edx:eax pair) and then anding some constant with it, to get either the constant or 0.
17:14:01 <mroman> I'm already at 130 in just a few seconds :D
17:14:13 <fizzie> Speaking of the paste, case '[' doesn't seem to be tracking nesting depth.
17:17:31 <mroman> http://codepad.org/qkTR6fAe so far.
17:24:17 <mroman> +[+[+>]<<+]> produces 88.
17:24:42 <mroman> Which is shorter than any previous program that produces 88.
17:24:55 <mroman> in the wiki there are 13 Byte versions.
17:25:40 <fizzie> That looks like it goes through your whole 256-cell tape, though.
17:26:03 <mroman> I have to verify that.
17:26:29 <fizzie> I'm pretty sure the +[+>] component will.
17:27:03 <fizzie> I misread that as +[>+].
17:27:08 <fizzie> Maybe it doesn't, at that.
17:27:26 <fizzie> With just 1500 cycles or so, it'd be strange it it had time to wrap around many times.
17:28:32 <fizzie> Though the unbalanced loops are kinda scary, it might be doing something rather bizarroid.
17:31:55 <mroman> But it seems to work in different interpreters.
17:32:32 <mroman> http://esoteric.sange.fi/brainfuck/impl/interp/i.html
17:32:40 <mroman> that uses an array of size 32768
17:32:57 <mroman> if I understand the obfuscated source code well enough.
17:34:39 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bf: not found
17:34:40 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
17:34:51 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
17:35:15 <fizzie> That's a... thousand-cell tape, IIRC. Or something like that, anyway.
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17:36:00 <Gregor> That's a very, very large tape.
17:36:10 <mroman> It doesn't seem to wrap around the tape.
17:36:14 <fizzie> It seems to be meandering around in cells -1, 0 and 1.
17:36:21 <fizzie> Assuming it starts from 0, that is.
17:36:33 <Gregor> I don't believe that !bf accepts -1, it should segfault if you do that. Maybe.
17:36:53 <mroman> It works with different starting positions as well.
17:37:37 <mroman> it's using cell 11,10 and 9
17:38:03 <fizzie> Sure. So it's a (12, 3) solution, pretty much.
17:38:52 <mroman> May I add it to the list?
17:39:01 <fizzie> Also not the kind of thing that a human is likely to write.
17:39:02 <mroman> including or without a warning about unbalanced loops?
17:40:25 <fizzie> Well, you could add a comment that the three cells include neighbours on both sides; I wouldn't be surprised if all the existing programs only used space to the right of the start. (But it doesn't say anywhere that that'd have to be the case.)
17:43:03 <mroman> I also have a 12 B solution for 168.
17:43:20 <fizzie> !bf +++++++[-<+++++++>]<.>>[ look ma, no segfault ]
17:44:34 <mroman> Also using -1,0,1 cells.
17:44:50 <fizzie> That shows up as a diaeresis/umlaut here, which would be correct for latin-1 168.
17:45:01 <mroman> but instead of adding 88 it subtracts 88 of course.
17:47:18 <mroman> and another solution :D
17:47:59 <mroman> obviously 12B 88 plus a '+'
17:48:45 <fizzie> Let me guess, you might have a 14-character solution for 90, a 15-character for 91, and so on up to a 19-character to 95.
17:48:49 <fizzie> Those all are improvements.
17:52:24 <mroman> And I have a 13B solution for 56.
17:52:55 <fizzie> What's that look like?
17:53:58 <mroman> It seems to use cell 0,1 and 2
17:54:17 <mroman> it's not going to the left.
17:55:36 <mroman> I didn't expect to find any solution not previously known.
17:56:03 <fizzie> Coincidentally, 200 + 56 is 256.
17:56:18 <mroman> it's the same but with -
17:56:27 <fizzie> Brainfuck constant optimization is not exactly a terribly popular field.
17:56:46 <fizzie> Well, you get improved 55, 57, 58, 59 (and the negative versions) from that.
18:01:37 <mroman> I'm going to pause right now :)
18:02:13 <mroman> to give my poor cpu a little bit to rest.
18:03:24 <mroman> I'm glad I may have been able to help you reduce the code size of your brainfuck programs :D
18:03:45 <mroman> I'll contiune the program next day.
18:04:22 <AnotherTest> mroman: implying your brain contains a CPU?
18:08:11 <mroman> But I have to do work on my computer right no.
18:09:18 <AnotherTest> Ah I see, it's fun not to have to work(for now)
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18:28:21 <mroman> I'm getting the feeling that 1500 Cycles is a too low limit.
18:28:32 <mroman> -[++>+[+<]>]> runs in 1482 cycles.
18:28:38 <mroman> which means it just barely made it.
18:28:55 <mroman> And I might have missed solutions that would have ended at 1600 cycles
18:29:05 <mroman> but there is no practical solution to that.
18:30:19 <fizzie> There's not really a theoretical solution either. But there's the practical solution of optimizing the implementation some more, say for a 2x speedup, then duplicating the limit.
18:42:38 <Vorpal> I strongly dislike the new android API docs web page. It scrolls down a bit from the top when you scroll down, thus hiding the header. Including the search field
18:42:47 <Vorpal> what idiot thought that was a good idea
18:43:29 <Vorpal> and no, moving the mouse to the top doesn't help
18:45:49 <fizzie> I personally don't mind websites that work like websites used to, i.e. scroll the whole page. Especially when the alternative is not CSS fixed-positioning but some sort of a blurb that tries to constantly reposition itself to stay in one place with javascript.
18:46:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, the previous android docs design (and thank good, still the design of the offline docs) uses frames
18:46:17 <fizzie> They seem to add a go-to-top button on top of that package browser list, which is kinda weird, since most of the browsers have some sort of a home key.
18:46:20 <Vorpal> the header is a bit large
18:46:44 <Vorpal> I prefer the search field being accessible all the time
18:47:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway another issue with the new design is that not everything scrolls, the namespace list still behaves as a frame
18:47:34 <Vorpal> so it is inconsistent too
18:47:38 <fizzie> Maybe they could incorporate search functionality in that package browser. That's maybe where I'd have looked first.
18:48:20 <fizzie> Did you notice the arrow-and-line icon that appears above the package browser as soon as the top scrolls out of view?
18:48:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, it searches the various non-reference parts of the site too, like concept overviews and guides
18:48:47 <Vorpal> so the package browser would be an odd place for it
18:49:02 <Vorpal> but that jumps to the top of the page
18:49:17 <fizzie> Yes. Someone has certainly thought about how people need to jump to the top a lot.
18:49:19 <Vorpal> which is annoying since I tend to open things in new tabs all the time by middle clicking
18:49:34 <Vorpal> so I don't want it to jump to the top just to search
18:49:58 <Vorpal> though middle click doesn't work in that search field anyway, I'm pretty sure it used to
18:50:05 <Vorpal> in the old online version that is
18:50:24 <Vorpal> also the font they went for is far too blurry IMO
18:50:52 <Vorpal> it would be okay on a high dpi monitor. But that site is not made to be read /on/ the phone!
18:52:25 <Vorpal> hm I wonder if it is okay to bind a service in a broadcast receiver registered in the manifest file...
18:52:38 <Vorpal> I don't really like the android application life cycle stuff
18:52:49 <Vorpal> as soon as you need something to run in the background it gets complicated
18:56:00 <Vorpal> how am I going to tell my service that stuff then...
18:58:16 <fizzie> I guess they wanted it to be thematically appropriate. (It's the same Roboto font as in Android 4, right?)
18:58:30 <Vorpal> and it works fine on a 300 dpi monitor
18:58:42 <Vorpal> it is terrible on a 96 dpi desktop monitor
18:58:46 <Vorpal> even with full hinting
18:58:59 <fizzie> You should browse the Android APIs on your iPad 3.
18:59:21 <fizzie> No, but that's a 264 dpi screen.
18:59:31 <Vorpal> so still less than what my phone has
18:59:35 <Vorpal> which iirc is around 320
18:59:43 <fizzie> 2048x1536 at 9.7 inches.
19:00:01 <Vorpal> So 1080p videos look horrible on it then in full screen?
19:00:25 <fizzie> I guess they could do it at 1920 without people noticing too much. Not many pixels in the border.
19:00:37 <fizzie> It's also the native resolution of Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition, since that's what it's aimed at.
19:01:09 <Vorpal> also my broadcast receiver is getting -1 as the charging state when I plug it in. That doesn't even make sense...
19:01:12 <fizzie> They put a 2880x1800 15.4" screen in the latest MacBook Pro.
19:01:16 <pikhq> fizzie: Wow, you actually have to upscale 1080p.
19:01:48 <fizzie> Yes; especially with 2880 you will probably actually have to.
19:01:51 <Vorpal> I believe my phone is 1920x1080
19:01:59 <Vorpal> which is pretty crazy for a phone
19:02:12 <Vorpal> more than my desktop monitor even (1680x1050)
19:02:41 <fizzie> 1920x1080 even at 4.5 inches diagonal (and that'd be a *big* phone) would be around 490 dpi.
19:03:08 <fizzie> Could be, I'm no expert.
19:03:28 <fizzie> That's reasonable. For some values of.
19:03:31 <pikhq> MY phone is merely 800x480...
19:03:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, also quad core CPU
19:03:54 <sebbu> mine should be 480*360 or something
19:04:02 <fizzie> The N900 is 800x480 at around 3.5", so ~267 dpi.
19:04:39 <fizzie> The 2880x1800 at 15.4" is "only" 220 dpi, but that's still a lot of pixels.
19:04:41 <Vorpal> anyway, android used to have an option in the development menu to prevent the phone from going to sleep while USB was connected. It is missing on this phone. Apparently that is a Samsung thing.
19:04:53 <Vorpal> (since Galaxy Nexus had it)
19:05:03 <Vorpal> so I'm writing a program that does the same thing
19:05:24 <Gregor> It's not "a Samsung thing"
19:05:24 <Vorpal> no idea why they removed it. It was really useful when debugging
19:05:27 <Gregor> My off-brand tablet has that.
19:05:34 <Vorpal> Gregor, that they removed it?
19:05:41 <Vorpal> I said that removing it was a samsung thing
19:05:46 <Gregor> Ohohoh, I misunderstood.
19:05:52 <Gregor> I thought you meant that including it is a Samsung thing.
19:06:02 <Vorpal> Gregor, my Samsung Galaxy S3 is missing that option
19:06:06 <Vorpal> that is the whole point
19:06:36 <Vorpal> and now I have to properly learn the android life cycle thingy for services
19:06:46 <Vorpal> and not straight-forward at all
19:07:10 <Gregor> (Straightforward is one word)
19:07:35 <Vorpal> btw anyone know a good android irc client?
19:07:39 <Gregor> I'm not sure if I understand what "life cycle thingy for cervies" means...
19:07:43 <Gregor> I use AndChat, it's not terrible.
19:08:41 <Vorpal> Gregor, well, in general android activities, services, and so on have pretty strange life cycles (when they are created, suspended, resumed, destroyed and so on) when coming from a desktop programming perspective.
19:09:09 <Gregor> In that they're effectively suspended and destroyed "whenever the OS damn well pleases"?
19:09:24 <Vorpal> yes there is that, and in this case I don't want that to happen
19:09:34 <Vorpal> which means quite a complex set of steps must be performed
19:10:48 <Vorpal> also a lot of things happen async
19:10:56 <Vorpal> when talking between different such objects
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19:11:03 <Vorpal> which is even more confusing sometimes
19:15:20 <Vorpal> Gregor, also for broadcast receivers the extra data sent with the intent seems to be poorly documented
19:15:30 <Vorpal> it varies for different intents of course
19:15:46 <Vorpal> but I can't find which ones are available for the intent I'm interested in
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19:20:31 <Vorpal> The logcat log on this thing is huge (~37000 lines), so it takes several seconds for it to load the whole thing in after connecting the device. Which is annoying since I'm debugging how my program handles plugging/unplugging the USB cable atm XD
19:20:55 <Vorpal> so eclipse loads the whole log after every connect
19:24:26 <Gregor> Heh, that's probably stupidly difficult to debug.
19:25:18 <Vorpal> Gregor, well logcat thankfully does have a buffer on the device. The issue here is that it is so huge it takes ages to load
19:25:20 <fizzie> Wasn't someone using AndroIRC? But I have no first-hand knowledge of these things.
19:29:01 <mroman> AnotherTest: It's always fun not to work by the way ;)
19:29:19 <mroman> Unless you need money, of course.
19:29:30 <mroman> But working for money is the suckers way :D
19:30:02 <mroman> Sadly we're all suckers then :(
19:30:35 <mroman> Although I'm currently living with what I saved during apprenticeship.
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19:31:44 <Vorpal> it can't spell to itself
19:32:36 <fizzie> You should be using... that one thing, what was it called. That zoomy flowy thing.
19:33:04 <fizzie> It's like a small game every time you want to enter some text.
19:33:33 <VorpalPhone> Smart stay on s3 works better than expected
19:33:52 <Vorpal> that is the camera thing where it tries to see if anyone is looking on the screen before going to sleep
19:34:07 <fizzie> "On 22 March 2010, a new Guinness World Record of 35.54 seconds was set for the fastest text message on a touchscreen mobile phone using Swype on the Samsung Omnia II,[7] and reportedly improved on 22 August of the same year to 25.94 using a Samsung Galaxy S."
19:34:23 <Vorpal> how long was the message
19:34:30 <fizzie> 160 characters, 25 words.
19:34:50 <fizzie> "The razor-toothed piranhas of the genera Serrasalmus and Pygocentrus are the most ferocious freshwater fish in the world. In reality they seldom attack a human."
19:34:58 <Gregor> I was gonna say, I'm pretty sure I could send "lol" in <25 seconds.
19:35:03 <fizzie> (That was the message.)
19:35:18 <mroman> It's commonly known that piranhas can't kill a human just like that ;)
19:35:31 <VorpalPhone> Also swype works better than I expected before I tried it
19:35:50 <fizzie> The BBC article doesn't mention if he had been writing stuff like "Serrasalmus" and "Pygocentrus" in advance. I suppose those things do some learning?
19:36:02 <mroman> You probably would die from blood poisoning & co.
19:36:26 <fizzie> mroman: Only a skeleton is left after about three seconds, I've seen this in comics.
19:37:08 <VorpalPhone> Actually it isn't swype as such. On older phones there was an IME oil
19:37:24 <Vorpal> and then I hit enter by mistake
19:37:32 <Vorpal> there was an IME option called swype
19:37:40 <Vorpal> now it is included in the default "Samsung keyboard" IME
19:38:08 <fizzie> Oh, Nuance bought the Swype company? They're really chomping people up.
19:38:10 <Vorpal> so you can do tap or swipe, not sure if you could that with the original swype
19:38:24 <mroman> fizzie: Yes, and terrorist are everywhere.
19:38:28 <Vorpal> also why is my laptop acting like it is swap trashing
19:38:42 <fizzie> Nuance Communications, it's a speech/imaging/language company conglomerate.
19:38:51 <mroman> Although far more people die during falling down their stairs than from terror attacks.
19:38:56 <Vorpal> hm it isn't swap trashing
19:38:57 <fizzie> They've been buying other companies like it's going out of style.
19:39:00 <Vorpal> why is it acting like it then
19:39:19 <Vorpal> oh wait actually it is. Looks like Linux preferred to use the RAM for cache instead of xchat or X11
19:39:29 <fizzie> Including Loquendo, who did... something, I forget exactly what.
19:39:42 <Vorpal> (I am doing IO operations on it)
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19:40:07 <fizzie> A speech thing in some well-known thing, anyway.
19:40:39 <Vorpal> speaking of speech. Samsung included a Siri clone
19:40:50 <Vorpal> so I don't know what the point is
19:40:56 <Vorpal> it is not like even Siri is remotely useful
19:43:39 <fizzie> Since their 2006 merger with ScanSoft, they've bought: Dictaphone Corporation; Mobile Voice Control, Inc.; Focus Informatics, Inc.; Bluestar Resources Ltd.; BeVocal, Inc.; VoiceSignal Technologies, Inc.; Tegic Communications, Inc.; Commissure, Inc.; Vocada, Inc.; Viecore, Inc.; eScription, Inc.; Multivision Communications, Inc.; Philips Speech Recognition Systems GMBH; SNAPin Software, Inc.; a ...
19:43:46 <fizzie> ... pile of IBM's patents; Zi Corporation; speech technology department of Harman International Industries; Jott Networks Inc.; nCore Ltd.; Ecopy; Spinvox; MacSpeech; iTa P/L; PerSay; Equitrac; SVOX; Webmedx; Loquendo; Swype; Vlingo; Transcend Services.
19:43:53 <fizzie> Not that many of those are big companies, but still.
19:44:28 <Vorpal> most of those companies I hadn't even heard of
19:44:53 <fizzie> Well, they do speechy and voicy stuff. Nothing terribly famous there.
19:45:15 <fizzie> Oh, the somewhat known "Dragon ThisAndThat" family of speech things is by Nuance.
19:46:03 <AnotherTest> Vorpal: people like Siri because they think it's actual ai
19:46:09 <fizzie> Vlingo I remember seeing in some other context.
19:46:21 <Vorpal> AnotherTest, I thought they liked it because it was programmed to be somewhat funny
19:46:22 <fizzie> And I've heard some people claim they actually get some use out of Siri.
19:46:40 <fizzie> I think one of them was a blogging lawyer, and lawyers aren't known to joke.
19:46:45 <AnotherTest> Vorpal: most people I know, know the word programming but do not understand its meaning
19:47:20 <AnotherTest> Vorpal: most people that use the iPhone etc. are such people
19:47:41 <fizzie> Vorpal: Also Tegic (in that list of companies) made and patented the "T9" text input, if you've heard of that.
19:48:02 <Vorpal> fizzie, ah yes I know of T9
19:48:23 <Vorpal> the thing that made writing SMS on keypad phones actually possible
19:48:42 <pikhq> Yeah. That made it not actually suck.
19:48:48 <fizzie> Also made so many jokes about predictive text input mishaps possible.
19:49:06 <pikhq> It was also kinda an obvious thing if you had used tech in Asia.
19:49:29 <pikhq> (by necessity, text input in CJK is predictive)
19:49:40 <mroman> finding the actuall number of used cells is not that easy :D
19:50:05 <Vorpal> aha! I found the icon for adb being attached (which doesn't show on my samsung btw, why?)
19:50:22 <Vorpal> that it doesn't show? yes
19:50:32 <pikhq> Presumably Samsung believe in being blatantly non-stock?
19:50:32 <Vorpal> anyway it seems like a good thing to represent what I'm writing
19:50:47 <Vorpal> some of the stuff they do are improvements sure, but only some
19:50:57 <fizzie> Among the university students there's a slang term of sorts to say "jalka mk" in place of "kalja ok", i.e. "beer ok", because that's what some phone produced for the corresponding keys. (It's from the SMS-to-Usenet gateway that CS students used to use to announce when they were off partying somewhere, and how things went wrong that time.)
19:51:00 <mroman> I shall write a program that measures cell usage.
19:51:01 <Vorpal> I like their start application menu, it is better than stock
19:51:08 <Vorpal> the rest of the UI? nah
19:51:09 <fizzie> Well, SMS-to-private-news-server, not Usenet per se.
19:51:39 <Vorpal> fizzie, what does "kalja ok" mean?
19:51:46 <Vorpal> also usenet? you guys still use that?
19:51:51 <Deewiant> Vorpal: "beer ok", like he said.
19:52:17 <fizzie> The newsgroups are pretty dead nowadays.
19:52:19 <Vorpal> to find this icon btw, I had to check out 13 GB of android sources
19:52:21 <Deewiant> And I guess most people don't but news.tky.fi is certainly up and running.
19:52:33 <fizzie> Well, yes, it still *works*.
19:52:39 <fizzie> And there are posts, just not all that many.
19:52:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, I presume "jalka" doesn't mean anything?
19:53:08 <fizzie> Otherwise it wouldn't be predicted.
19:53:13 <fizzie> Well, that doesn't really mean anything.
19:53:37 <fizzie> The abbreviation for the previous monetary unit.
19:53:39 <AnotherTest> Heh, there is this professor(in Java) at the university near where I live(not sure what his name is), and he said that in public methods you should always use the getters rather than the field name directly. Isn't that a little over-pedantic?
19:53:44 <Vorpal> how can you have a word without vowels?
19:53:48 <fizzie> How didn't I think of that? Face to palm.
19:54:06 <mroman> yeah. 56 and 200 require 4 cells, not 3.
19:54:13 <Vorpal> AnotherTest, it is very... object oriented
19:54:23 <Vorpal> on the other hand, android lint can be set to complain about it
19:54:37 <fizzie> Deewiant: Also, the news.tky.fi webterface gives me 403 now. Was it restricted to local use or what?
19:54:37 <Vorpal> since apparently it is up to 3x slower with the dalvik VM
19:54:57 <Deewiant> fizzie: Beats me, I've only used it like once or twice.
19:55:07 <fizzie> It seems to work from work.
19:55:27 <Deewiant> fizzie: http://news.tky.fi/ seems to work for me.
19:56:40 <AnotherTest> Vorpal: I was just wondering if there's a lot of advantage. Using getters has great advantage if you want to change fields, however, someone who writes public methods should also have written and/or understood the fields?(or else you would have not enough abstraction?)
19:56:58 <Vorpal> I miss ? on the end of function names from scheme, I can't think of a good equivalent of "take-lock?" (a function that decides if we should take a wake lock by looking at the current situation and settings)
19:57:05 <fizzie> fis@eris:~$ curl -s -4 -I http://news.tky.fi/ | grep HTTP
19:57:06 <fizzie> fis@eris:~$ curl -s -6 -I http://news.tky.fi/ | grep HTTP
19:57:06 <fizzie> HTTP/1.1 403 Forbidden
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19:57:13 <fizzie> Deewiant: IPv6 breaks the day again.
19:57:34 <Vorpal> AnotherTest, I think C#/.NET properties is a nice solution to the issue.
19:57:59 <Vorpal> well, a reasonable one
19:58:03 <Vorpal> it is still object oriented
19:58:15 <Vorpal> AnotherTest, my suggestion: go with the policy at the company you work at. Or of the teacher for the course in question.
19:58:20 <Vorpal> For your own code? Do what you prefer
19:58:39 <fizzie> There was also a tradition to post a fixed-content disparaging message to the "-h" newsgroup (mostly CS students) whenever someone left their account logged-in at one of the university workstations.
19:58:44 <Vorpal> personally I don't do getters or setters if they would be just this.foo = foo
19:59:00 <Vorpal> if you are making an API?
19:59:04 <Vorpal> well, that is trickier
19:59:05 <fizzie> I see last one is from April 5th, so either the tradition has gotten less common, or people have gotten better at not leaving unlocked computers unattended.
19:59:15 <Vorpal> do what is best then for maintaining it
19:59:35 <Vorpal> AnotherTest, from within the same class I wouldn't use "pointless" getters/setters
19:59:43 <AnotherTest> Vorpal: I do as you do it seems. I'm not writing an API, although my project is quite big.
19:59:56 <fizzie> Vorpal: Re ?, you can do what Lisp folks do and substitute in "P".
20:00:05 <mroman> Vorpal: I know have a program which accept a range of programs to calculate.
20:00:22 <mroman> Which means that you can run different processes with different ranges on each core.
20:00:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, or I could confuse every haskell programmer out there and call it maybeTakeLock
20:00:55 <mroman> But I have to generate a list of ranges first.
20:02:20 <fizzie> Vorpal: That name also sort of suggests it would actually do take the lock if necessary, and not just check whether it should.
20:03:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, well the P thing would just confuse me
20:03:14 <Vorpal> so not sure what I would call it
20:03:16 <fizzie> "takeLockP" is I think the combination of Lisp P-for-predicate and Java CamelCase.
20:03:31 <fizzie> Okay, it's probably not a good idea.
20:04:06 <fizzie> You can call it mustTakeLock if you want your programs to look like English. ("if (mustTakeLock) ...")
20:04:33 <Vorpal> also "We" sounds out of place
20:04:42 <Vorpal> and "mustWeTakeLock" sounds like it is whining about it
20:04:58 <boily> takethYeOldeLocke?
20:04:59 <Vorpal> AnotherTest, I presume it is a reference. I don't get it however.
20:05:01 <fizzie> mustWeTakeTheLockAgainReallyOhMan.
20:05:58 <fizzie> The 'is'/'has' prefix is a conventional for boolean-returning methods, but it's not really all that applicable here. isItLockingTimeAgain?
20:06:00 <AnotherTest> Vorpal: it's just an overly long identifier name, intended as a parody on long names
20:06:10 <fizzie> Conventional in Java, that is.
20:06:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, yeah, that is why I have the silly field "isUSB"
20:06:47 <AnotherTest> Vorpal: but I must say l isn't much better :p
20:06:50 <Vorpal> indicating if we are on USB
20:07:10 <Vorpal> AnotherTest, I was kind of aiming for a balance in between those extremes yeah
20:07:19 <fizzie> 'isLockNeeded' is kind of tame, but preferrably you'd have some sort of closer match to other things, maybe.
20:08:08 <Vorpal> I have a "release-lock?" as well btw
20:08:54 <Vorpal> or hm, actually I can rewrite it as one function and move the check of the current state of locking elsewhere
20:09:04 <Vorpal> in which case "needsLock" is fine
20:10:05 <Vorpal> enums behave silly in switch blocks btw
20:10:24 <Vorpal> since everywhere else you need to qualify it like MyEnum.VALUE
20:10:28 <Vorpal> but there it is just VALUE
20:10:54 <AnotherTest> Speaking of enums, I like C++11's strong enums
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20:11:44 <Vorpal> dammit, java is being stupid. The end of the function /is/ unreachable
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20:12:09 <mroman> Vorpal: Oh. yeah @know.
20:12:37 <mroman> I never learnt how to write english :D
20:12:48 <mroman> I learnt it by listening.
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20:16:28 <mroman> Well, I had english in school years ago.
20:16:29 <fizzie> Vorpal: Sadly, the rules of switch don't let you write it as switch (enumvalue.ordinal()) { case MyEnum.VALUE.ordinal(): ... } for consistency.
20:16:44 <mroman> but leaning languages in school is pretty much useless.
20:16:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, is that what it translates to?
20:17:11 <mroman> "I like red cars. I like them because they are red"
20:17:12 <fizzie> (MyEnum.VALUE.ordinal() isn't constant enough for a case label is why.)
20:17:20 <mroman> that's probably the niveau of school english.
20:17:31 <mroman> Everything else I learned by watching american television shows.
20:18:04 <Vorpal> so save as Swedish "nivå" then
20:19:04 <itidus21> strange question here.. what does it mean for an Ada, Common Lisp or REBOL program to have a loop condition in the middle of the loop?
20:19:31 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, it translates probably into either the 'tableswitch' or the 'lookupswitch' bytecode, if you look deeply enough. But to something approximating that code, anyway.
20:19:51 <fizzie> Given that the constants are consecutive, I guess tableswitch.
20:20:12 <mroman> I usually just know how an english word sounds and guess how to spell it :)
20:20:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, you seem to know a lot about java bytecode?
20:20:51 <fizzie> I've browsed the specification now and then. I had some sort of vague plans for something I've forgotten.
20:21:01 <itidus21> i guess it probably means that it would look something like { ... while(condition) ... }
20:21:08 <fizzie> Turns out the verification rules make doing exotic things impossible.
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20:21:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, what is that rule?
20:22:43 <fizzie> There's all kinds of rules. But one of them makes it so that you can't (at least easily) translate a general stack-based language to Java bytecode in such a way that the VM stack would be used as the language's stack, because if some point of the code can be reached via multiple paths, all the various paths must have provably identical stack effects.
20:23:00 <nortti> 23:12 <Yaniel> ln *.o libglfw.a -lOpenGL32 -lpng
20:23:01 <fizzie> So you can't do any sort of "loop until stack empty" sort of things.
20:23:17 <fizzie> (You'd hit the loop start with different stacks.)
20:24:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, do the values have to be the same, or just the number of elements and their types?
20:24:41 <fizzie> And no computed jumps either, all targets must be known bytes that are start of one opcode.
20:25:00 <fizzie> I'll check how the exact wording was.
20:25:26 <fizzie> Same stack depth regardless of the path taken.
20:26:16 <Vorpal> does it help the optimiser that much?
20:26:28 <Vorpal> since it is going to be JIT-compiled anyway
20:26:43 <fizzie> Well, they determine the maximum stack depth at compile time.
20:27:04 <fizzie> That would be harder, I suppose.
20:27:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, how can they do that though, recursive functions would mess that u
20:27:39 <fizzie> The stack is local to the function.
20:27:51 <Vorpal> how do they pass parameters then?
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20:28:15 <Vorpal> and such a stack sounds terribly inefficient, allocating a stack for each function call
20:28:16 <fizzie> The 'invokeblah' opcodes pop them off the local stack. (It's a different thing than the call stack.)
20:28:44 <Vorpal> hm is JVM stack or register based btw?
20:29:18 <fizzie> It's not exactly going to be very many elements deep. I don't think values usually live on it from one statement to the next; it just converts expressions into stack-based opcodes.
20:29:38 <fizzie> And then the JIT will revamp it back to register-oriented machine code.
20:30:01 <fizzie> Dalvik is IIRC a register-based arch.
20:30:07 <Vorpal> hm why do they use a stack based vm
20:30:28 <fizzie> That's not in the book. Or at least I haven't noticed it yet.
20:30:54 <fizzie> The Java Virtual Machine Specification book.
20:30:57 <Vorpal> I mean why did Sun decide to use stack based
20:31:01 <fizzie> It doesn't really deal in whys.
20:31:02 <Vorpal> since the JVM is stack based
20:31:23 <fizzie> It's not all that uncommon; .Net's bytecode uses a stack-based architecture too, unless I misremember.
20:32:11 <VorpalPhone> Llvm and dalvik are both register based though.
20:32:41 <fizzie> They're also sort of more modern.
20:32:44 <fizzie> Maybe they inherited some of that stuff from Self.
20:33:13 <fizzie> I have no idea how that thing's internals looked, but they had some JIT stuffs that I think ended up in Java's HotSpot.
20:33:24 <VorpalPhone> Also the lag between your messages arriving on my laptop and this phone is very large.
20:33:36 <Vorpal> which is strange since they are both currently on the same WLAN
20:33:45 <Vorpal> and there is no such lag in sending
20:34:44 <Vorpal> and typing on swype may be fast compared to non-swype on phone, but I really wish there was something as fast as a laptop keyboard on a phone (no those tiny keyboards like your nokia has are not as fast as laptop keyboards)
20:36:25 <FireFly> The (AFAIK) first language with prototypical inheritance, a Smalltalk dialect
20:36:36 <fizzie> Yes, that sounds like a reasonable summary.
20:36:55 <fizzie> Also involved people went to Sun and worked on the Java JIT.
20:36:58 <shachaf> Is there a language with stereotypical inheritance?
20:37:45 <FireFly> shachaf, <insert pun here about "class"ical languages>
20:38:42 <shachaf> <insert type="pun" location="here" topic=""class"ical languages"></insert>
20:38:50 <Vorpal> how do spinners work in Android for fixed translatable strings... gah
20:39:01 <Vorpal> I only populated spinners from code before.
20:40:07 <fizzie> Vorpal: Actually to be slightly more accurate, the "operand stack" (spec term; what the VM instructions operate on) is in fact part of the stack frame on the "real stack" (my term). It has that smallish fixed maximum depth, so it's not all that resource-intensive, I suppose. So it's not separate stacks, at least conceptually.
20:42:52 <Vorpal> VorpalPhone, Testing highlight
20:43:17 <Vorpal> I wish it did a nick column like xchat
20:43:21 <Vorpal> I find that easier to read
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20:50:05 <oerjan> does the VorpalPhone go snickersnack?
20:51:27 <oerjan> it thinks stickers are more edible than snickers, i take
20:51:46 <Vorpal> well I went with first suggestion
20:53:03 <itidus21> couldn't convince my doctor i'm allergic.. i just get an awful reaction that i have to spit and spit and perhaps take anvil
20:55:05 -!- VorpalPhone has quit (Quit: Bye).
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21:00:48 <VorpalPhone> Going to try randomly dragging around to see what I get .
21:01:48 <VorpalPhone> Divisive bridal vocabulary history Cisco Hutchison subdivision search zero workshop wagon worn posh high ennui caucus vista Chicago citizen
21:04:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, you played Tale of Monkey Island right?
21:04:49 <Vorpal> the more recent game that is
21:05:21 <oerjan> hm... http://www.sheldoncomics.com/
21:05:37 <Vorpal> saw it was 60% off on gog, not sure if it is worth it still at $14
21:10:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, so was it worth that price?
21:10:57 -!- VorpalPhone has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:11:11 -!- VorpalPhone has joined.
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21:12:43 <fizzie> I can't really answer questions of worth. It wasn't bad by any means, but it wasn't terribly good either. I did have some fun with it. Some of the parts were on the boring side, and I vaguely recall there were some frustrating bits, but perhaps that's to be expected. Anyway, the writing wasn't bad (in my subjective opinion), which I suppose was a big plus.
21:13:37 <Lumpio-> Released 3 years ago and alreayd on gog?
21:13:46 <Lumpio-> That didn't sell for long...
21:14:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, so how do you compare it to MI1, MI2 and MI3?
21:14:12 <fizzie> I got all five for some not terribly large amounts of money, Telltale themselves were having some sort of a thing.
21:14:34 <Vorpal> Lumpio-, there are some new releases on gog happening nowdays (apart from their own witcher series I mean)
21:14:52 <Vorpal> guess they are looking for extra revenue
21:15:37 <Vorpal> oh right, they are the episodic game guys
21:16:40 <fizzie> Well. It wasn't as consistently good as I remember those games being, but that could be nostalgia talking. But the best moments were in the same ballpark. Also, I kind of like puns, and there was some amount of those. I suppose the puzzles weren't all that clever, all in all.
21:16:50 <Lumpio-> I just don't feel like playing MI with 3D graphics .__.
21:17:04 <Lumpio-> I know it takes ages to do 2D animation but somebody could at least try .__.
21:17:10 <fizzie> Well, it looks different, that's certainly true.
21:17:12 <nortti> yay. I ported unix v7 ed to windows
21:17:15 <Lumpio-> Wasn't there a kickstarter for something like that lately
21:17:59 <fizzie> Lumpio-: There was at least that Double Fine Adventure kickstarter.
21:18:04 <fizzie> Notable for getting so much money.
21:18:11 <Vorpal> Lumpio-, you know they made special editions with completely redrawn graphics of MI1 and MI2?
21:18:17 <Vorpal> new music, and voice acting as well
21:18:29 <fizzie> They got $3,336,371 of their $400,000 goal.
21:18:46 <fizzie> IIRC, the special editions are fancy in that they allow you to swap between the original and the new graphics at any time you like.
21:18:54 <Vorpal> yeah they do that topo
21:19:12 <Vorpal> watched a bit of an LP of MI2 special edition
21:19:27 <Vorpal> not really interested in the LP itself though
21:19:32 <Vorpal> let me see if I can find it
21:20:17 <Vorpal> ah https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=De2xdeIrtTI
21:20:26 <Vorpal> Lumpio-, you might want to check if that is something in your taste
21:20:26 <fizzie> I was sort of tempted to take part in that kickstarting thing since you could've gotten the game from it for just $15, but in the end sort of forgot.
21:20:52 <Vorpal> Lumpio-, oh wait, it actually starts here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcyFF1wIQPs
21:21:24 <Vorpal> also kickstarters involve some economical risk
21:22:00 <Vorpal> and there really haven't been any major game kickstarters before. So we can't really compare successrate yet.
21:22:20 <fizzie> It's from the Psychonauts folks, so they should know how to do fun, or so people at least say; and Tim Schafer should know a thing or two about adventure games.
21:22:57 <fizzie> So I suppose cautious optimism is warranted.
21:22:59 <Vorpal> yeah they might not know how to do it economically though.
21:23:06 <ion> Brilliant idea #51: inhaling capsaicin. http://youtu.be/7bKTsmIBIao
21:23:07 <Vorpal> but sure, I do think they will manage
21:23:43 <ion> Incidentally, i’ve been playing TSOMI:SE since yesterday.
21:29:49 <Vorpal> yay my screen waker program works
21:30:16 <Vorpal> need some GUI polish though
21:31:17 <Vorpal> oerjan, like, you know, saving your settings
21:31:41 <oerjan> ok, but why do you want them in polish
21:32:22 <Vorpal> oerjan, currently the UI looks terrible. I should upload a screenshot
21:32:58 <Vorpal> lets try the built in stuff for that
21:35:22 <Vorpal> oerjan, https://dl.dropbox.com/u/87474461/Screenshot_2012-06-26-23-32-49.png
21:36:01 <Vorpal> (this phone came with 50 GB on dropbox for 2 years btw, kind of nice, what with how expensive it was)
21:36:17 <Lumpio-> Inhaling anything besides air sounds suspect to me
21:36:18 <Vorpal> oerjan, also doesn't save settings yet
21:36:28 <Vorpal> oerjan, anyway the start/stop service buttons are going away
21:36:35 <Vorpal> they are not relevant really except when debugging
21:37:18 <Vorpal> oerjan, also I plan to add a notification thingy for it
21:37:28 <Vorpal> in the notification screen you know
21:37:55 <oerjan> i don't know, i don't have a smartphone
21:39:38 <Vorpal> oerjan, this screen, you reach it from anywhere by dragging down from the top of the screen: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/87474461/Screenshot_2012-06-26-23-38-20.png
21:39:55 <Vorpal> it shows stuff like that listed there, also things like "you got new mail"
21:43:13 <Vorpal> dropbox is kind of neat. I just hit the "send to dropbox" on my phone in the gallery, then it showed up within seconds on both my computers
21:46:03 <fizzie> Banner ad of the day: an ad for a self-described "combat lightsaber specialist" company.
21:46:47 <Vorpal> did you check out the details?
21:47:42 <fizzie> Well, they sell lightsabers. I don't know how combat-ready they are. Prices generally range from $100 to $200 for single-bladed models, approximately.
21:48:26 <fizzie> The models have very impressive names. The Dark Initiate LE v3, the Collectors Edition Liberator v3, and so on.
21:49:04 <fizzie> Dart Maul UltraFX Double Hilt with their Premium Obsidian soundboard retails for $649.
21:49:14 <fizzie> s/Dart/Darth/ obviously.
21:49:39 <fizzie> "UltraEdge blades provide a thick, bright blade due to the white polycarbonate tube. They are as good as the mid-grade blades for dueling purposes."
21:49:49 <fizzie> I didn't really know this sort of thing was a thing.
21:51:19 <fizzie> (Though I suppose there's really no reason to be surprised at all.)
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21:53:02 <oerjan> it's when the specification includes amount of kilokelvins you can start being surprised.
21:56:43 <fizzie> "Genuine Luxeon III LED installed with high quality heat-sink" "Detachable fiber optic Ultra Blade with polycarbonate blade tip" "Stainless steel retention bolt used to secure blade while also allowing for quick blade removal" sadly it sounds quite like fakery.
21:57:18 <oerjan> well a heat-sink _should_ be useful.
21:59:23 <Vorpal> how are light sabres supposed to work (in the story that is)
21:59:32 <Vorpal> what sci-fi justification do they have?
21:59:32 <fizzie> Crystals, if I recall correctly.
21:59:43 <Vorpal> and the "blade" itself?
21:59:50 <fizzie> What do you mean crystals of what? Crystals!
22:00:02 <fizzie> Wookieepedia has quite a lot of *text* about it.
22:00:12 <Vorpal> what does the blade consist of for example
22:00:15 <fizzie> "The weapon consisted of a blade of pure plasma emitted from the hilt and suspended in a force containment field. The field contained the immense heat of the plasma, protecting the wielder, and allowed the blade to keep its shape."
22:00:33 <Vorpal> "pure" plasma contained in what?
22:00:53 <Vorpal> that was a "the what" as in "I don't believe that"
22:01:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, "force containment"
22:01:16 <Vorpal> "may the force be with you"?
22:01:33 <fizzie> I think it's actually a regular force field, but I'm not completely sure.
22:01:34 <oerjan> i suspect it's not the same force
22:01:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, and how are *those* supposed to work?
22:01:50 <oerjan> ...for some value of "regular"
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22:02:25 <oerjan> next up Vorpal will claim star wars hyperdrive is unrealistic.
22:02:39 <fizzie> The primary parts of a lightsaber: the hilt, the pommel cap, the diatium power cell, the inert power insulator, the focusing lens, the lightsaber crystal, the emitter matrix and the blade emitter. Each of those is its own article.
22:02:48 <Vorpal> oerjan, all FTL travel I seen so far is unrealistic.
22:02:53 <Vorpal> so that doesn't surprise me
22:03:44 <fizzie> The main article is 27 A4 pages, printed.
22:03:48 <oerjan> Vorpal: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TechnoBabble hth
22:04:08 <fizzie> It's mostly history, though.
22:04:40 <fizzie> "The blade emitter was the part of a lightsaber that actually projected the blade. It consisted of the emitter matrix, which further focused the blade after the crystal with a tightly wrapped magnetic field, and the emitter itself, where the blade actually protruded. The emitter possessed the magnetic ring that created the field that contained the plasma of the blade and arced it back to the ...
22:04:47 <fizzie> ... lightsaber for reconversion back to electricity."
22:05:37 <fizzie> Now it's magnetic containment in this article, so who knows.
22:05:50 <fizzie> It doesn't exactly explain how the magnetic field is shaped, anyway.
22:05:55 <oerjan> fizzie: of course it's history, it happened a long time ago you know
22:06:24 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
22:07:44 <fizzie> oerjan: Well, but history-history. You know, the whole story from the Rakatan Forcesabers with their ebon crystals that channel the dark side, through the First Blade and he Duinuogwuin Contention days, up to adoption by the Jedi, the Great Galactic War, and so on.
22:09:36 <fizzie> As everyone knows, it was the Sith Empire that were mostly responsible from refining them from mostly ceremonial tools into a practical weapon, primarily by solving the power supply problem by including an internal superconductor that transferred the returning looping energy from the negative-charged flux aperture back to the power cell.
22:09:47 <fizzie> (These are all quotes from Wookieepedia.)
22:10:08 <fizzie> (Not direct quotations, but the information.)
22:11:05 * oerjan suddenly wonders if "Rakata" is a mangling of Raksha
22:11:48 <fizzie> "Rakata is the name of a volcano on the island of Krakatau", according to the 'Behind the scenes' section.
22:12:05 <oerjan> well it _is_, but that doesn't prove anything...
22:12:37 <fizzie> They were invented for one of the games, apparently.
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22:25:27 <Phantom__Hoover> fizzie, they were invented for KOTOR, which is one of the better-regarded games.
22:26:08 <Phantom__Hoover> In the sense that people these days constantly use it in the phrase "is crap, why can't we go back to the days when things like KOTOR were made".
22:26:29 -!- zzo38 has joined.
22:29:31 <Phantom__Hoover> Also if you're in the mood for weird Wookiepedia articles, they have a very odd article on 'breast'.
22:29:44 <itidus21> i try to rant fiercely about what is wrong with todays games...
22:30:07 <itidus21> but my usual set of deficiencies plagues me
22:31:38 <itidus21> my reluctance to do actual research, focusing outside of actual practice preferring imaginary practice, spending half my rants correcting the errors i have made so far
22:32:45 <itidus21> but as for "why can't we go back to the days when things like KOTOR were made" i -like to think i- rarely make statements of the form "why can't we?" but i probably do anyway
22:34:27 <zzo38> What games do you mean?
22:35:30 <itidus21> unlike some, i am quite happy to play by fair rules in such discussions (eh i don't know a meaning discussion vs debate vs rant)
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22:37:10 <itidus21> in order for a modern game to be categorized as inferior to a past game, some kind of analysis of what is actually wrong should take place
22:37:53 <itidus21> rather, the burden of proof is really on the gameplayer to prove that somehow their experiences with the modern game are unsatisfactory in some way
22:38:23 <itidus21> i suppose in reality, comparison to past games is really a special case, and a mistake
22:38:40 <zzo38> Perhaps yes it may be one special case
22:39:07 <itidus21> it could be related to how one can grow weary of something
22:39:15 <itidus21> and also the lens of nostalgia
22:39:17 <zzo38> In many computer games one problem may be that the scoring could be improved from how they had made it
22:39:54 <itidus21> and how we measure what we like is probably relative to what is available
22:41:09 <itidus21> most people don't have time to carry on about these questions
22:41:39 <itidus21> i think it may be necessary to go back to aristotle to uncover some of the answers
22:41:51 <itidus21> there is a fallacy that good graphics are more desirable
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22:42:14 <itidus21> well the fallacy is that "good" is ill-defined i suppose
22:42:30 <zzo38> What graphics are needed may also depend on the game
22:42:41 <itidus21> and it is pointless to say the desirable graphics are desirable
22:42:57 <zzo38> In generaly I think the graphics is generally not needed
22:43:19 <itidus21> except to counter the fallacy that undesirable graphics are desirable
22:44:15 <itidus21> the consumer sheep have been well-fed on 3d graphics...
22:44:43 <zzo38> If 3D geometry is not used in the gameplay, it should not have 3D graphics, is my opinion.
22:44:47 <itidus21> in a way theres nothing wrong with the system
22:45:03 <itidus21> but, i am happiest when trying to criticize something
22:46:00 <zzo38> I make many different computer games in the way I prefer it, and then other people that like in this way can play this game too.
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22:46:48 <itidus21> like graffiti is only meaningful in as much as some can't stand it so much that taxes get spent cleaning it
22:48:24 <itidus21> but at the same time, there was some artwork by that banksy guy which accidently got destroyed, and people have started speculating about putting protective plastic on certain works of graffiti
22:48:30 <zzo38> Don't waste your taxes like that.
22:49:12 <itidus21> im going off topic it seems, but i gotta go make breakfast
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23:03:19 <itidus21> zzo38: so i try to focus on answering questions like "why can't we go back to the days when things like KOTOR were made"
23:03:34 <itidus21> rather than treating it as rhetorical which would be the norm
23:05:56 <itidus21> ive never had an internet connected console, but some of the problems i think is the way that when a game is played in single player, that it needs cultural relevance to be deeply enjoyable
23:07:28 <itidus21> humm.. ok i'm honing in on the problem
23:08:05 <itidus21> if you write a software application it is natural to use it a lot..
23:09:15 <itidus21> but if you write a game, then somehow it would be weird to spend signifigant time playing the game yourself if not for testing
23:09:45 <itidus21> although i hear the creator of gran turismo plays it
23:09:59 <itidus21> maybe it is the mark of a good game if the developers themselves actually want to play it
23:12:43 <zzo38> I don't know KOTOR. But, I do make the game that I like to play by myself too
23:13:59 <itidus21> i do feel a sense of guilt when i flood this channel with this wall of text
23:15:02 <zzo38> itidus21: I am OK with that. Although other people can type on here too
23:15:21 <itidus21> but this is not the right place to say quite so much quite so fast
23:19:05 <itidus21> sequels in the top 100 game sales of 2012: mass effect,diablo,just dance,mario kart,call of duty,super mario,mario party,final fantasy,elder scrolls,fifa soccer,battlefield,uncharted,resident evil,max payne,gran turismo,ufc undisputed,assassin's creed,zelda,grand theft auto
23:20:16 <itidus21> and a few others i guess. basically the best popular games are almost all franchises and sequels.
23:27:11 <Phantom__Hoover> It'd probably be more meaningful if you looked at sales figures across the series.
23:27:19 <itidus21> there was some bias in the ones i left out too
23:28:14 <itidus21> i think that there is a great emphasis on gaming as a form of social interaction. this is probably nothing new. nightclubs have gotten rich as social networking services
23:30:15 <itidus21> its really astonishing how many sales super mario gets
23:31:41 <Phantom__Hoover> FWIW the top selling console games in 2001 were *all* part of a preexisting franchise, as were all but 2 of the PC games.
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23:31:49 <zzo38> How good game do you think the computer game I have made would be? (Super ASCII MZX Town, Potion of Confusing, XnazzyBall, Disk Catch, The CGA Collection (which consists of various computer games), etc)
23:32:29 <zzo38> Sales do not affect the quality of a game unless they use that money to hire people to make improvements and that those people are actually competent to do so.
23:33:42 <itidus21> although games tend to be similar to each other
23:33:47 <itidus21> and although games get called clones
23:34:20 <itidus21> i think theres almost no instances of a non-puzzle game's physics being copied verbatim
23:34:34 <zzo38> That is why we should make up the games differently, even if there are some similarities.
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23:35:01 <zzo38> But you are correct there does tend to be too many similarities, but usually they do not even make improvements to those things
23:35:05 <Phantom__Hoover> quintopia, is that a "please for the love of god stop this conversation" line?
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23:41:57 <zzo38> The plot of the "Potion of Confusing" game is somewhat like this: You have to solve the puzzles to collect the purple keys and once you have enough you can leave. You have to save gibbering mouthers from the king's army, and the only way to do that is to hold the second purple key as you hold a pencil, and write "VOID" on the contract; that way the army will attack the king instead. But you need to go to the library to learn the contract law first,
23:41:58 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, a puzzle platformer
23:42:05 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, was part of a previous humble bundle
23:42:11 <Vorpal> the android bundle iirc
23:42:20 <Vorpal> so I put it on my new phone to try out touch controls for games
23:42:21 <zzo38> Games such as "Disk Catch" have no real plot because it is not that kind of game.
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23:43:00 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, displaying a gamepad on screen and using that worked best out of the three control methods (the one I just mentioned, tilt, drag cube (the player is a cube))
23:43:23 <zzo38> Is there external keyboard method?
23:43:25 <Vorpal> also my room is a wifi white spot
23:43:36 <Vorpal> zzo38, I don't have an external keyboard for my phone though
23:43:40 <Vorpal> there is on the PC version
23:43:46 <Vorpal> (iirc it is wasd or the arrow keys)
23:43:54 <Phantom__Hoover> I'll remember that in the event that I buy an Android phone and feel the need to play a highly-reviewed indie game on it.
23:44:05 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, anyway why did you want me to say something?
23:44:26 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, stop being sarcastic, there is no call for it
23:44:32 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, that.... sounds terrible
23:44:40 <Vorpal> I will not read the scrollback, I'm too scared
23:44:40 <zzo38> Do you have something to say?
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23:45:09 <Vorpal> why is there a white spot for wifi here, even my laptop can only get like 2 bars :/
23:46:00 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, well, it doesn't normally bother me since I use ethernet for my laptop in here
23:46:20 <Vorpal> however, Samsung neglected adding an ethernet port to this phone!
23:46:25 <Phantom__Hoover> In fact I'm pretty sure wifi in general is a big hoax, and it's actually all run with the souls of baby rabbits or something which keep hopping into the wrong place or something I swear this made sense when I started typing
23:46:37 <Vorpal> (I'm kind of happy with that, think how bulky it would have been!)
23:47:35 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, zzo was in here, I'm not sure he would have understood that I was ironic
23:50:32 <VorpalPhone> I really like swype though. At least for English it is pretty good. Haven't tried it much for Swedish yet. Although it can't tell to and too apart.
23:51:29 <Phantom__Hoover> Just need to make it confuse see and seen and it'll be able to perfectly mimic your typing.
23:51:59 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, I confuse those two words?
23:52:08 <Vorpal> oh I guess I need to work on that then
23:52:28 <Phantom__Hoover> I believe I've brought up your struggles with the pluperfect at least twice before.
23:53:33 <VorpalPhone> Testar swype för svenska. Ett sammansatt ord: ... well that fails (concur
23:53:56 <Vorpal> why is backspace next to enter :/
23:54:09 <Vorpal> on phones it is annoying
23:54:31 <Phantom__Hoover> Presumably because they both needed to operate similar mechanisms on typewriters, seeing as both moved the carriage back.
23:55:03 <Vorpal> doesn't make sense on a phone keyboard though
23:55:14 <Vorpal> anyway swype fails concatenated words in Swedish
23:55:24 <Vorpal> at least non-common ones
23:55:44 <Phantom__Hoover> Vorpal, of course it does, they both need to move the little carriage under the screen back.
23:55:45 <Vorpal> for Swedish you really need a set of base-words and a ruleset for how to construct concatenated words
23:56:12 <Vorpal> and it looks like for Swedish it just has a simple word list
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23:56:52 <Vorpal> okay that is annoying, the quit message looks very similar to when the client said it lost connection itself
23:57:15 <Phantom__Hoover> That page image is possibly the best I've seen on Wikipedia.
23:57:30 <zzo38> I have seen that some keyboards (rarely-used) have non-destructive backspace above the return key but the rubout key to the left of the "A"
23:57:49 <zzo38> Do you think that is a better place for it?
23:57:54 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, click the image and read the description
23:58:40 <zzo38> (Where non-destructive backspace is used for overlapping characters to make a non-equal sign and so on)
23:58:54 <Phantom__Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Featured_picture_candidates/Backspace
00:04:08 <Vorpal> I guess I'll finish that app tomorrow
00:04:34 <Vorpal> not a lot left though, clean up GUI, remove some debug buttons and add preference saving
00:05:08 <Phantom__Hoover> Wow someone nominated http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Shallow_water_waves_250px.gif for featured pic.
00:06:00 <Vorpal> also eh, seems I need to bug fix, I think the service got killed somehow...
00:06:10 <Vorpal> guess it needs to be a foreground service
00:16:26 <zzo38> Which programming languages allow ASCII control characters in identifiers?
00:17:00 <Vorpal> zzo38, Pretty sure erlang allows some at least, if you quote the identifiers
00:17:27 <Vorpal> you can have an identifier which is the empty string even
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00:20:26 <zzo38> I do like to be able to quote the identifiers too but it is not exactly what I meant
00:21:40 <Vorpal> zzo38, you can't have such variable names of course, since that is a separate namespace
00:21:44 <Vorpal> but function or module names, sure
00:21:55 <Vorpal> though for module names the compiler might not like your file name very much
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00:24:21 <zzo38> There should be allowed to use shift-in, shift-out, and backspace, possibly with some restrictions (such as not more backspaces than printable characters, and any shift-out must have a shift-in somewhere after it), in some programming languages, maybe?
00:25:46 <zzo38> As well as macros to treat certain names as similar to others. For example in Haskell we have "/=" for not equal so you can have "/\BS=" and "\SO|\SI" macros that result in the name being treated equivalently to "/=" unless those macros are redefined.
00:25:57 <Vorpal> what does shift-in/out do?
00:26:08 <zzo38> (You could also have the similar macros for the Unicode not-equal sign to mean the same thing too)
00:27:15 <zzo38> Vorpal: Shift-in/shift-out on some terminals is used to select a different character set. (Other terminals may have other meanings for them, none of them common as far as I know)
00:27:41 <Vorpal> well I need to sleep, unless Phantom__Hoover comes back I'm not going to bother chatting more
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01:02:07 <ion> Intro to Physics started. http://www.udacity.com/overview/Course/ph100/CourseRev/1
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01:30:35 <zzo38> Are you good at physics?
01:31:41 <zzo38> When in school I could select the science course I selected the physics because I like that one. But I was also taking calculus class so some things in the physics I could understand by the calculus too
01:32:00 <zzo38> I think they invented calculus to do physics.
01:45:24 <zzo38> I am not in school at this time.
01:48:17 <shachaf> zzo38: What school are you not in?
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01:51:41 <VorpalPhone> zzo38: are you at collage or university then?
01:54:26 <zzo38> I am not at school/collage/university.
01:57:21 <pikhq> https://twitter.com/MichaelSeger/status/217792901718085633/photo/1/large Now I too get to experience what Beijing atmosphere is like!
02:09:14 <VorpalPhone> Will you start university this fall then zzo38
02:12:27 <FireFly> -VorpalPhone- VERSION AndChat 1.4.0.2 http://www.andchat.net
02:13:11 <VorpalPhone> Missing the Xchat style nick alignment though
02:18:19 <FireFly> That looks pretty neat. Not a fan of the variable-width font though
02:22:23 <VorpalPhone> Anyway I'm effectively using swype, though it calls itself "Samsung keyboard"
02:25:04 <VorpalPhone> Also the phone uses the front facing camera to detect when you are still looking at it even though you haven't touched it for a bit. It works better than I expected.
02:28:21 <VorpalPhone> Another nice feature is picture-in-picture with the video player inside any other program. Doesn't work with YouTube though, only local videos.
02:28:57 <FireFly> that usage of the front-facing camera sounds pretty clever
02:31:48 <VorpalPhone> Long term this keyboard hurts though. But so do all phones. Even ones with physical keyboards
02:32:46 <FireFly> The best phone keyboard I've used is the N900's, so far
02:39:40 <VorpalPhone> Ha! I can trick opera mini into acting like that
02:41:02 <VorpalPhone> So that way I can do the picture in picture with YouTube videos
02:42:54 <VorpalPhone> This is what it looks like http://db.tt/mBOf3bn7
02:43:54 <FireFly> is it easy to switch between applications? especially between current and last application
02:46:06 <VorpalPhone> Rather than the dedicated button Google intended
02:52:14 <VorpalPhone> Been using WiFi for hours without recharge and still at 75%
02:53:41 <VorpalPhone> If you can handle a large phone, this is awesome
02:56:40 <VorpalPhone> One issue is that using the FM radio with the included earphones o
02:57:49 <VorpalPhone> No idea why. Works well with other headphones.
02:58:33 <VorpalPhone> Also the included ones are fine with music player
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03:35:47 <zzo38> Usually a music that modulates into many keys uses equal temperament so that the chords are equal for all keys, which does work OK. But what happen if you write a music that is modulating into many keys, starting and ending on the same key though, and using just intonation tuned for only the starting key, so that the chord vary in the different keys (although you might get wolf tones in some)?
03:38:53 <zzo38> (Doing that, you would have to think more carefully of what keys you modulate to, such as when you want wolf intervals and so on)
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05:07:17 <zzo38> Unuse command in this track.
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06:33:35 <zzo38> The default setting for VRC7 frequencies in PPMCK appears to be based on A440 although it is 2Hz off and the tones vary as much as four cents from equal temperament. This is using 172 for C (the formula is $F={49722x\over2^{19-o}}$ where $x$ is a nine-bit integer and $o$ is a three-bit integer). Setting C to 269 appears to be much closer with up to two cents of variance.
06:34:38 <zzo38> However, this way is no longer tuned to A440 so it will not work if you use channels other than the VRC7 (and possibly noise channels as well), or if you require A440 tuning for any other purpose.
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06:39:56 <zzo38> However, you do get a just perfect fifth of C and G with the 172 based setting.
07:04:25 <Vorpal> zzo38, what about non-western tunings?
07:04:44 <Vorpal> does it support Indian (as in India) music?
07:04:58 <Vorpal> if not, how could you improve the system to support that?
07:05:46 <Sgeo> tswett, update
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07:09:19 <zzo38> Vorpal: I suppose any octave-based tuning could be used with VRC7, although since the frequency must be a nine-bit integer, the range may be limited so they might not be in tune.
07:09:39 <zzo38> (I have already made PPMCK to support custom tuning)
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07:10:29 <Vorpal> zzo38, iirc Indian music have quarter-notes
07:10:36 <Vorpal> don't remember the the details though
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07:12:06 <zzo38> PPMCK only supports up to sixteen notes per octave though, due to the way the lookup tables are programmed.
07:12:31 <Vorpal> zzo38, you need to improve that
07:14:12 <zzo38> PPMCK only makes .NSF musics and is has a limited ROM space as well as a limited CPU speed
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11:15:21 <mroman> Ok. Found new solution for 90
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11:19:25 <fizzie> The object-oriented variant of 88.
11:29:33 <fizzie> It's better just to succ it up.
11:30:57 <itidus21> ive been studying some actual math today
11:31:50 <mroman> I actually have no idea how +[+[+>]<<+]> works :)
11:32:25 <itidus21> kmc: well i don't know if i've read the wikipedia page before, but existential quantifiers
11:34:14 <itidus21> E x in X P(x), V x in X (Px), ~E x in X P(x), ~V x in X (Px)
11:36:17 <itidus21> i only see the boxes with numbers.. im not sure how to remedy this
11:36:47 <mroman> It seems to add 1 to the cell in the middle every 12 cycles
11:37:06 <kmc> itidus21: whatever font you're using doesn't have those characters
11:37:35 <mroman> except for the first and last few cycles.
11:37:58 <itidus21> ive basically been studying control flow
11:38:17 <fizzie> mroman: If I call the cells L, M and R (for left, middle, right), I think it keeps R == 0 as a sentinel, initializes L = 1, C = 3 and then keeps doing L += 3, C += 1 until L wraps around. (Or, rather, L += 2, C += 1, ***, L += 1 where *** is the point where L's wraparound is noticed.)
11:38:28 <itidus21> and then i arrived at a page about McCarthy Formalism
11:38:34 <fizzie> mroman: (At least based on how it starts; I haven't checked how it ends.)
11:38:35 <mroman> it set's the cell to 2 and then adds one every 12 cycles
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11:39:18 <fizzie> mroman: The +'s in the outermost loop always apply to the left cell, while the [+>] construct increments both the left and middle cells.
11:39:33 <fizzie> (Well, except for at the very start, when the first + applies to the middle cell.)
11:42:41 <itidus21> i feel like i'm on the precipice of being an application developer and a computer scientist
11:42:50 <fizzie> 14:42 <fizzie> ,cc uint8_t L = 1, C = 3; while (L) { L += 3; C++; } printf("%d\n", C);
11:42:53 <fizzie> 14:42 <candide> fizzie: 88
11:42:57 <fizzie> I'm pretty sure that's what it does, basically.
11:43:09 <fizzie> (My previous comment on where the L wraparound is checked was worng.)
11:43:55 <kmc> what do you do now? what have you done?
11:44:40 <itidus21> but, like, theres a reference on this wiki page to Marvin Minsky (1967), Computation: Finite and Infinite Machines
11:44:51 <itidus21> which is probably massively overkill on explanation
11:45:09 <itidus21> but if i followed it up i would be going down the rabbit hole
11:46:30 <kmc> reading one paper by marvin minsky does not make you a computer scientist
11:50:30 <fizzie> ^bf +++>+[+++<+>]<.! I think it's pretty much the same as this, except saves characters by cleverly getting the setup done somewhat incidentally, and doing that unbalanced loop in place of +>+, which is of course important in getting the setup done.
11:55:47 <mroman> I'm currently generating a list of program ranges which I'd like to tackle with a 5k cycle limit.
11:56:14 <fizzie> Also I meant +<+ in my comment, forgot I had swapped the two cells.
11:56:46 <mroman> To bruteforce every program in a range takes approx 1.5h on an i3 Processor.
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11:57:33 <mroman> So I won't come far on my own :)
11:57:57 <mroman> and 1 range includes 4294967295 programs
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11:58:47 <mroman> some of them not valid brainfuck programs, of course.
11:59:01 <mroman> but those are not interpreted.
11:59:21 <fizzie> Not 4294967296? I would have expected a 2^N, not 2^N-1.
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11:59:59 <mroman> That is ULONG_MAX on a 32bit machine.
12:00:14 <fizzie> But there are ULONG_MAX+1 values in an unsigned long.
12:00:44 <mroman> it goes from 0 to ULONG_MAX
12:00:52 <fizzie> (Nitpicking is what I do most of the time.)
12:01:09 <mroman> where limit is ULONG_MAX
12:03:55 <mroman> So I thought I publish the program, create a table of ranges in the wiki
12:04:03 <mroman> and people can sign up for them and let them run
12:04:09 <mroman> and publish the results :D
12:08:52 <mroman> first I shall solve some linear first-order inhom. diff. equations.
12:27:16 <mroman> Does the wiki allow to upload text files?
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12:44:43 <mroman> this wiki seems not to like subpages?
12:46:23 <fizzie> I've seen subpages in the User: namespace, at least. But that might be a different thing.
12:47:11 <fizzie> <elliott> I think turning on subpages for the main namespace would be a mistake
12:47:56 <fizzie> That was in February 2012, though.
12:48:55 <fizzie> Very next line, incidentally: <elliott> because it just encourages people to put programs on the wiki
12:49:43 <fizzie> (The Esoteric File Archive, if it was somehow more publicly editable, would I guess be the proper place.)
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13:10:45 <mroman> then I have to move it :)
13:12:52 <fizzie> It's not a very great sin, but I suppose it's slightly discouraged. Maybe. I don't really have any knowledge on things having to do with the wiki.
13:13:21 <mroman> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_constants/Crunchfuck
13:14:22 <itidus21> i thought i was having a good night but somehow i triggered depression.. maybe i'm too much of a realist
13:16:27 <itidus21> like i have all these cortices in my head designed to process looking at and talking to humans, but days, weeks, years pass just staring at a computer screen
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13:56:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Warwick University's accomodation application offers "British Antarctic Territories" as a nationality.
13:57:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Well it actually /says/ "British Antartic Territories".
13:58:35 <mroman> And if I'm from gibraltar?
13:59:05 <neutrino2000> what about that oil platform that gained independence?
13:59:29 <neutrino2000> i forgot the name of it, sorry, but it was something funny
13:59:30 <Phantom_Hoover> If you mean Sealand, it has next to no formal recognition and in any case was a fort, not an oil platform.
14:00:26 <neutrino2000> that one could be fun, since they're fighting for recognition since about when the stonehenge was new
14:01:34 <Phantom_Hoover> WP says Basque nationalism originated in the 19th century,.
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14:03:27 <Vorpal> speaking of typos, I once had to put [sic] in a reference list (In my thesis). The paper was from an "Internatonal Conference"
14:03:41 <blom> Phantom_Hoover: stop correcting neutrino2000, that's not very polite.
14:03:51 <neutrino2000> Phantom_Hoover: given that the earth is only 4000 years old i'd say that's when the stonehenge was built
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14:04:45 <blom> Phantom_Hoover: guess.
14:05:27 <blom> i am blom entirely by accident
14:06:11 <Phantom_Hoover> I can't think of any notable absences other than elliott, and you don't sound like elliott; oerjan's not here but I don't think he's normally on at this time?
14:06:25 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, according to whois this guy is from .fi
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14:06:51 <Vorpal> oklopol, I think you are notable
14:07:04 <Vorpal> oklopol, don't let that mean Phantom_Hoover make you sad!
14:07:16 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, well notable as in your absence is presently noteworthy.
14:08:33 <Phantom_Hoover> OK wow, the aforementioned citizenship selection? Doesn't include "United States".
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14:22:55 <mroman> Vorpal: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_constants/Crunchfuck
14:28:11 <mroman> There is a problem that when you pick a range in the middle there is no way to know shortest previous solutions.
14:28:33 <mroman> But that's by design that way.
14:28:58 <mroman> It's not a problem though, you just have to filter them out when somebody in a lower range also found a solution for the same number.
14:44:25 <fizzie> http://i.space.com/images/i/4460/original/Apollo-11-Immigration-02.jpg "Departure from: MOON"
14:47:18 <quintopia> does the law really consider the moon a different country?
14:48:04 <fizzie> The article that accompanied the image said they were having one of those "joke" things.
14:49:06 <fizzie> It's a bit vague to say just "MOON" when what is asked is "Place and Country". That's about 38 million square kilometres.
14:50:25 <quintopia> it's not so big. in the middle of the night when it's full, i can cover it with my thumb, arm extended
14:50:52 <kmc> "Any other condition on board which may lead to the spread of disease: TO BE DETERMINED"
14:51:06 <fizzie> Well, they *did* sit in a quarantine for some weeks.
14:51:14 <fizzie> For all those MOON GERMS.
14:51:18 <kmc> don't wanna get moonpox
14:54:05 <kmc> there should be a brainfuck derivative with distributed message-passing
14:54:09 <kmc> called clusterfuck
14:54:55 <fizzie> "there should be a brainfick derivative" is the objectively best initial substring a sentence can have.
14:56:58 <fizzie> Today's new newsgroup at the local Usenet server: alt.paul-derbyshire.fix.it.now. (The client reports all new groups.)
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16:22:56 <Gregor> nortti: Your C2BF online yet?
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16:30:08 <Gregor> quintopia: Do you have an hg bundle for bfjoust to use the new scoring system yet?
16:31:05 <quintopia> Gregor: i dont know how. anyway, it only needs to change like four files, and they are all in that archive i gave you.
16:31:18 <Gregor> ... you gave me an archive???
16:31:27 <quintopia> besides, hg can't make sure you have clapack installed can it?
16:31:28 <Gregor> I thought we just talked about how to send it and then I never got an actual link.
16:32:06 <quintopia> uh nope, definitely gave you a link sometime last weekish
16:32:43 <lambdabot> quintopia said 5d 14h 48m 56s ago: http://www.filedropper.com/newbfjousttar and ask about the bug in gearlance
16:32:50 <Gregor> lambdabot: WHY WAS I NOT INFORMED
16:33:23 <quintopia> you said something to the channel just moment after i sent that as i recall
16:33:40 <Gregor> So about how that link seems dead >_>
16:34:06 <quintopia> well they delete files if no one downloads them :P
16:37:03 <nortti> Gregor: no, I havn't been able to access my computer since last saturday
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17:19:14 <Gregor> nortti: Do you have a github account, so I can at least point the guy there and say "it should appear here sometime" X-D
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18:15:45 <nortti> ^rainbow *squeaksqueaksqueaksqueaksqueaksqueaksqueaksqueak*
18:15:46 <fungot> *squeaksqueaksqueaksqueaksqueaksqueaksqueaksqueak*
18:19:28 <quintopia> it looks better if each color is repeated for 2 chars before switching
18:19:43 <fungot> quintopia: i used to have some ostensible reason for visiting somewhere. " i'm giving you an illusionary effect of adding 2 to t
18:28:13 <mroman> ^rainbow ^rainbow ^rainbow
18:29:15 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
18:29:24 <EgoBot> 93 +++++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++++++>+><<<<-]>+++.>---.<+++.>---------.+++++.<+.>+.++++++++.>---. [505]
18:29:38 <mroman> ^rainbow ^bf +++++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++++++>+><<<<-]>+++.>---.<+++.>---------.+++++.<+.>+.++++++++.>---.
18:29:39 <fungot> ^bf +++++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++++++>+><<<<-]>+++.> ...
18:29:56 <mroman> ^rainbow !bf +++++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++++++>+><<<<-]>+++.>---.<+++.>---------.+++++.<+.>+.++++++++.>---.
18:29:57 <fungot> !bf +++++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++++++>+><<<<-]>+++.> ...
18:33:28 <EgoBot> 147 ++++++++++[>+>+++>+++++++++>+++++++++<<<<-]>>>>++++.++++++++++++++++++++.<+++++++.>---------.+++++.<+.>+.++++++++.<<++.>++++++.---.+++++++..+++.<<. [981]
18:33:38 <FireFly> !bf ++++++++++[>+>+++>+++++++++>+++++++++<<<<-]>>>>++++.++++++++++++++++++++.<+++++++.>---------.+++++.<+.>+.++++++++.<<++.>++++++.---.+++++++..+++.<<.
18:33:58 <FireFly> I guesss the bots are protected against triggering each other
18:35:28 <lambdabot> asiekierka_: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
18:35:37 <asiekierka_> when your VPS provider gives you a 5.0.0.0/8-range IP
18:36:48 <fizzie> FireFly: fungot has an ignore list, some (Gregor-bots?) also add a zero-width space in front of output so it doesn't trigger commands.
18:36:49 <fungot> fizzie: afk for a while)
18:37:56 <Gregor> © 2011 Gregor Richards, all rights reserved
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18:38:12 <Gregor> It only adds it when the first character doesn't match [a-zA-Z0-9], btw.
18:40:28 <asiekierka_> is there a DNS hack to add a fallback IP address?
18:42:48 <fizzie> I'm no Hamachi expert, but I've a feeling that you're just SOL no matter what DNS trickery you do, since it sounds likely Hamachi eats all 5/8 routing, and that's the IP your user eventually needs to communicate with.
18:45:36 <fizzie> A manual single-IP route for your IP (with the default gateway) sounds possibly worky, but hard to configure, and would need to be done by the affected user.
18:50:35 <asiekierka_> and the problem is, most European VPS providers are ONLY offering 5.0.0.0/8 now
18:50:43 <asiekierka_> and LogMeIn will probably not bother fixing it
18:50:56 <asiekierka_> essentially LogeMeIn will blame it on my provider and my provider will blame it on LogMeIn
18:50:57 <shachaf> kmc: The new #haskell, eh?
18:51:04 <asiekierka_> and the guy who has a dedi which hosts my VPS doesn't want to deal with tech supportr
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18:53:11 <fizzie> LogMeIn can blame providers until they turn blue, doesn't make their address land grab any more legitimate.
18:58:02 <asiekierka_> As an early representative of the newly emerging group of Screwed IP Owners
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18:59:05 <Gregor> Aren't there reserved ranges they could've grabbed so long as they obviously don't care about rules X_X
18:59:17 <Gregor> Or, y'know, take some IPs from IBM :)
18:59:35 <fizzie> I think your options are somewhat limited to noisy complaining. Though there's a couple of those on the LogMeIn community forums already, and it doesn't seem to help.
19:00:20 <fizzie> There's the usual private IP blocks, but they didn't want conflicts with people's LANs. (I guess conflicts with the Internet are better.)
19:01:13 <fizzie> Wait, no, it's just below 128. But it was an arbitrarily chosen byte.
19:01:39 <fizzie> It's below 128 because it's the ASCII 'f' for 'fizzie'.
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19:04:57 <tswett> Whoa. Tommi Paalanen's last name ends with "la" *and* "nen".
19:06:08 <tswett> Although "paa" doesn't seem to be a word. Maybe it's supposed to be Päälänen.
19:06:46 <fizzie> Moilanen is a more common surname (8571 current owners) and also does.
19:07:48 <tswett> My lifetime goal is to move to Finland and register cka.fi.
19:11:49 <Gregor> That's a really pathetic goal.
19:12:03 <tswett> My favorite hobby is placing objects on top of cars.
19:12:12 <Gregor> MY lifetime goal is to figure out who bought libc.so, find him, and "convince" him to sell it to me on the cheap.
19:13:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Also by 'on the cheap' I presume you mean like $10,000.
19:13:19 <tswett> libc.so, the domain name.
19:14:20 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: The registrar has one of those "domain privacy" systems, so technically the owner is the registrar, and they're on file.
19:18:23 <fizzie> Gregor: You just start a lawsuit against a John Doe, ask for discovery against the registrar, and subpoena them. Or something like that. (If it works for people making money out of copyright lawsuit threat settlements...)
19:18:44 <Gregor> The only tiny minor issue is that nothing they've done is even borderline illegal ;)
19:20:16 <fizzie> Yes, but the courts certainly don't check that, or expect evidence. They always drop the suits after they've subpoenaed the IP -> name, address mappings out of the ISPs in question.
19:22:36 <fizzie> Speaking of Hamachi and reserved ranges, there's still that whole 240/4 block (that's like 16 /8s) that's reserved for future extensions. But maybe they were worried there'd be technical issues there.
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19:33:06 <tswett> Technical issues involved in assigning the 240 block?
19:41:39 <fizzie> Technical issues involved in just starting to use it. I suppose some sanity checks might barf at such addresses.
19:42:24 <oerjan> insane sanity checks, the best kind
19:42:50 <fizzie> At least the 5/8 addresses are perfectly kosher. (They just belong to someone else.)
19:43:16 <oerjan> could those someone else sue them?
19:44:36 <fizzie> It's at least not completely impossible. Interfering with their legitimate business and whatnot. But I'm not a lawyer.
19:45:18 <fizzie> There was one forum posting where the author said he'd received a reply from LogMeIn that they're working on a "fix", but no details or ETA.
19:46:07 <fizzie> Their "fix" might be just to fall-back to public internet for non-existing Hamachi IPs, and then hoping there won't be conflicts.
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19:52:10 <oerjan> eek, prepare for incoming prepromorphisms
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19:52:49 <Taneb> I've just got back from an open day at Oxford
19:53:40 <edwardk> while guilty of packaging up the only libraries for manipulating prepromorphisms, i don't actually like or use them ;)
19:54:21 <edwardk> here i'd be more likely to ramble on about generalized de bruijn indices and locally nameless syntax tree representations
19:54:37 <edwardk> though i guess the effect on the audience would be largely indistinguishable
19:54:57 <oerjan> well that's just until you manage to combine them...
19:55:31 <edwardk> well, i _do_ have catamorphisms for tearing down such generalized de bruijn indices, just i've never bothered to build a version of a prepro or postpromorphism ;)
19:56:02 <edwardk> you can appeal to neal ghani's "initial algebra semantics are enough" to work with them even though the ADT isn't uniform
19:56:12 <Taneb> While guilty of packaging up the only library for manipulating family trees, I really love and try to make them :)
19:56:30 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Their "fix" might be just to fall-back to public internet for non-existing Hamachi IPs, and then hoping there won't be conflicts. <-- why don't they just switch to a different range?
19:57:01 <oerjan> if you think your family fits into a tree, someone has been hiding secrets from you
19:57:02 <Vorpal> you don't even need a whole /8 for a VPN, that is kind of silly
19:57:19 <Vorpal> a /16 seems reasonable to me.
19:58:02 <Vorpal> (there is no need to conform to the old class sizes after all)
19:58:12 <Vorpal> also they could go ipv6
19:58:14 <fizzie> Vorpal: AIUI, their "VPN" is a global thing. You're supposed to be able to connect to other Hamachi hosts, and the addresses are globally unique. (But I might be wrong.)
19:58:30 <oerjan> "Note, the signature of these has changed, because it was insufficiently general, [...]"
19:58:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, seems like a pointless VPN then. Since it takes the P out of VPN
19:58:51 <edwardk> oerjan: is that a quote of me from somewhere? =)
19:59:05 <oerjan> http://stackoverflow.com/a/5058725/1088108
19:59:51 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, it's transparently encryptamated and stuffs, plus handles NAT traversal. And it might have some sort of smaller networks. I really only know what I've gleaned from random reading.
20:00:03 <edwardk> need to wander around and mingle, brb
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20:00:11 <Taneb> oerjan, the non-tree-iness of family trees is why nobody likes implementing them
20:00:25 <fizzie> Vorpal: Anyway, their official reason for not going with 10/8 is that too many people have LANs in there.
20:00:31 <Vorpal> asiekierka_, you had the issue right? Why not switch to a different VPN solution, such as OpenVPN?
20:00:51 <fizzie> Vorpal: It was his users.
20:01:05 <Vorpal> well, they just need to install openvpn as well
20:01:15 <Vorpal> asiekierka_, for minecraft? come on
20:01:22 <Vorpal> there is no need for NAT traversal there
20:01:25 <oerjan> it's a little known secret that monogamy was invented by really angry genealogists to simplify things
20:02:27 <fizzie> Vorpal: Presumably they need it for other things. Whatever it's good for. And you can't really unilaterally switch VPN solutions, the other end needs to cooperate.
20:03:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, well, since hamachi is broken (not following IANA assignments) I don't see why any self-respecting server admin would support it
20:04:04 <fizzie> Hamachi has some sort of zero-conf dealie, and doesn't (AIUI, again) need any participant to have a clearly defined server role.
20:04:29 <fizzie> It might b "slightly" difficult to convince all your friends to switch to OpenVPN or whatever.
20:04:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, he has a server (VPS I think he said?), he can provide the such a server role
20:05:30 <Vorpal> anyway configuring OpenVPN is easy enough. By far easier than setting up IPsec for example.
20:06:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, another trivially easy option would be ssh tunneling btw
20:06:55 <Vorpal> (it is quite easy to create limited accounts)
20:07:37 <fizzie> Vorpal: If he just has user X who uses Hamachi to do stuffs with the user's friends A, B and C who otherwise won't have anything to do with him, I doubt (a) he's be interested in doing VPN for them, and (b) A, B, C switching to some random dude's VPN mess.
20:07:43 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway since he can't provide hamachi he might just as well provide openvpn as an option if they are that interested in his server
20:08:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm, if they only happen to need hamachi for other stuff (rather than his server) and that thus collides that would be easy to solve
20:08:47 <Vorpal> just something like ip route <specific address> dev eth0 I /think/
20:08:59 <Taneb> This reminds me, can anyone recommend a Scala tutorial?
20:09:10 <Vorpal> iirc the routing table works by most specific first, right?
20:10:08 <fizzie> Vorpal: It would need the gateway address, not just "dev eth0", and that's often dynamic. Also, from general statistics random users are nontechnical Windows users. (I did suggest a single-IP route.)
20:10:24 <Vorpal> ah it is ip route add to <specific address goes here> eth0 (or wlan0 or whatever your non-hamachi thingy is)
20:10:42 <Vorpal> but you can just look at your default route to figure out what the gateway is
20:11:34 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway I'm pretty sure you can add custom routes under windows from within the adapter properties
20:11:53 <Vorpal> so you could just provide a screenshot guide
20:12:08 <Vorpal> anyone can follow those
20:12:47 <fizzie> Personally, I'd just complain. It's likely they'll invent *some* kind of terrible workaround sooner or later.
20:13:31 <Vorpal> another option: write a tiny windows program that does this for the user. Very simple to use: just double click and okay the UAC warning
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20:15:03 <fizzie> It doesn't sound too simple to write, though, even assuming it's okey just to support from XP to 7.
20:15:24 <Vorpal> well, you would need to read some API docs sure
20:15:36 <fizzie> Windows APIs aren't always the most pleasant.
20:15:44 <Vorpal> but if things like AICCU manages to mess around with such things...
20:16:07 <Vorpal> (that only messes with ipv6 routing, but the process should be similar)
20:16:40 <Vorpal> speaking of which, what APIs do commands like ip route use under linux...
20:16:56 <fizzie> It's perfectly horrible.
20:17:06 <fizzie> Also really badly documented.
20:17:40 <Vorpal> also what did they use to do? iirc netlink was added during 2.6?
20:17:49 <fizzie> There's also all kinds of outdated ioctl-based duplicate ways of doing some of the same things, that ipconfig/route use.
20:18:12 <fizzie> But I'm under the impression iproute is fully (rt)netlink-based.
20:18:31 <Vorpal> hm the old route command doesn't use netlink indeed
20:19:16 <Vorpal> anyway ifconfig is much nicer if you just want to check ip and mac and what not for your network adapters
20:19:34 <fizzie> The 'ip' tool itself is kind of awkward if you go to esoteric enough things.
20:20:01 <fizzie> There's undocumented stuffs and such.
20:20:04 <Vorpal> I guess you mean stuff like bonding?
20:20:10 <Vorpal> there is undocumented things? Really?
20:21:23 <Vorpal> also I don't see the point of netlink. Why a special socket type just to configure networking? Using ioctls seems so much cleaner for this
20:22:24 <fizzie> IPv6 neighbour-discovery proxy stuff is/was quite a mess. The netlink API lets you add stuff, but there's no way to list what you've added, for example.
20:22:40 <Vorpal> neighbour-discovery proxy stuff? huh?
20:23:06 <fizzie> Something rather uncommon. It's like proxy-ARP but for IPv6.
20:23:15 <Vorpal> I have no idea what proxy-ARP is
20:24:02 <Vorpal> oh right, just read a bit on wikipedia about it
20:24:16 <Vorpal> sounds vaguely familiar
20:24:37 <fizzie> It's when you configure one box to say "hey, I'm here" for ARP requests to boxes "behind" it, because the other end is not interested in configuring routing rules, just route a /X to the network that your proxy-ARP box is connected to.
20:24:41 <Vorpal> eh, this seems open to security issues
20:25:50 <fizzie> (The cleaner way would of course be if they'd just route some a/b with your box as the gateway, so that you could then just forward.)
20:27:12 <Vorpal> but who uses mobile ip...
20:27:25 <fizzie> Anyway, there's a RFC so it's a respectable technique. :p
20:27:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, the security issues seem rampant with it though
20:28:08 <Vorpal> you could use this on a normal network for DoS easily
20:29:07 <fizzie> That's not really a *proxy*-ARP security issue, just an ARP one.
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20:30:31 <fizzie> I'm suddenly left wondering how many working, actively used IPX networks there are around.
20:30:49 <oklopol> "Dear Dr [oklopol], Thank you very much for reviewing the manuscript entitled [stuff]. Following your advice this paper has been rejected." thanks, totally wanted to know :D
20:31:18 <Vorpal> so the only real secure way is to statically configure the ARP cache in your switch and then make it filter ARP messages?
20:31:38 <fizzie> Vorpal: Or just use end-to-end IPsec with authentication.
20:31:51 <fizzie> So you'll notice pretenders.
20:31:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, you could still cause DoS in a switch
20:32:01 <fizzie> oklopol: Are you actually a Dr. oklopol?
20:32:41 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, yes. But you could also connect the switch port to 230V AC and cause a DoS issue.
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20:34:36 <fizzie> There's certain amount of trust involved in an Ethernet network. I ecpect you could also collide everything (or selected packets if you're real fast) to stop traffic.
20:35:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, right, but imagine you run a data center, one attack is possible if any of your customer's servers are compromised. The other requires physical access
20:36:21 <oklopol> but i guess they just assume the referees are usually phds or something, and don't bother to personalize
20:37:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway you can't collide a switched network as far as I know? And there is full duplex to the switch. You could overload it (unless there was QoS of course), but not collide.
20:37:05 <fizzie> oklopol: It's also polite to do the mistakes only upwards. I've gotten some "Prof. [fizzie]" emails.
20:37:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, an ARP attack seems like a larger issue than the ones you suggested
20:40:25 <oklopol> Dear all powerful divine ruler of heavens [recipient]
20:41:10 <fizzie> Vorpal: I think managed switches do mitigate some ARP problems. But I'm no networkist. And it probably depends on the competence of the data centre staff.
20:41:26 <oklopol> fizzie: have you ever gotten "Free Publication Invitation"s?
20:41:35 <oklopol> we got one some weeks back
20:42:03 <oklopol> from Computer Science and Artificial Intelligence
20:42:05 -!- augur has joined.
20:42:23 <fizzie> oklopol: What does one do?
20:42:25 <oklopol> based on our paper on CA which had nothing to do with computation
20:42:53 <oklopol> fizzie: i don't understand the quesiton
20:43:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, managed switches can be kind of crazy sometimes. When I did my bachelor thesis I needed to get a phone on a guest net communicating with a server on the secure network of that company. The network guys spent hours to try to get it to work with various routing in their top router and what not, only to find that some previous network admin had setup some filters in the access point itself. I saw h
20:43:18 <Vorpal> im sitting in some crazy Cisco setup program
20:43:25 <Vorpal> looked really complicated
20:43:31 <Vorpal> and that was for a switch
20:43:37 <Vorpal> the router one looked even worse
20:45:03 <fizzie> oklopol: Oh, so it's like "we'd like to publish this paper"?
20:45:04 <oklopol> fizzie: i was just wondering if it's a thing or if it's the weirdest spam ever
20:45:33 <oklopol> we'd like to publish some new paper of yours.
20:45:47 <oklopol> since we really liked this paper of yours which has nothing to do with our journal
20:46:27 <fizzie> oklopol: Right, *that* is what I thought. It sounds reasonably legitimate, as long as they're not offering a free pass through peer review too.
20:46:30 <oklopol> (it was in a publication many of whose articles could certainly go to the free publication offering journal)
20:46:57 <oklopol> Your paper will be published with no charge if accepted.
20:47:36 <Vorpal> with no charge? Why do they even have to point that out...
20:47:41 <oklopol> the offer stands for 3 more days.
20:47:52 <oklopol> err, journals usually cost something to publish in
20:48:15 <oklopol> yeah, peer review is so hard to do.
20:48:28 <Vorpal> well, it does involve some work certainly...
20:48:37 <fizzie> Well, not *always*. I don't know how it is on the math side, though.
20:48:39 <Vorpal> (at least to do it properly)
20:48:51 <oklopol> well i'm constantly doing peer review free of charge
20:49:10 <oklopol> so dunno where the costs come really
20:49:35 <fizzie> IEEE journals generally, AFAIK, only charge if you have too many pages.
20:49:38 <oklopol> fizzie: i have zero journal publications, so i know rather little
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20:49:56 <Vorpal> so what expenses does a journal have? You need like a web site, an editor. There are printing costs unless it is an online publication I guess
20:50:13 <Vorpal> subscription costs should cover that, surely?
20:50:50 <oklopol> universities subscribe to everything in the world
20:50:58 <Vorpal> yes they tend to do that
20:50:58 <fizzie> Vorpal: Given how big the subscription costs are, you'd *think* so. But there's some work in running the review stuff even if the actual reviewers are free.
20:51:10 <Vorpal> I guess the thing I will miss most from university is the IEEE xplore access
20:51:16 <Vorpal> not sure how to manage without that!
20:53:19 <fizzie> IEEE "computing library" package ("core journals" + limited downloads to "key articles" from Xplore) is only $21995/year, you could buy that.
20:53:58 <Vorpal> I wonder how much profit IEEE has on that
20:54:28 <fizzie> $49795 for the "all-society periodicals package".
20:54:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, I need to write a script to dump everything I can or so
20:54:47 <oklopol> yeah was just thinking that
20:54:50 <fizzie> That's probably against the access terms.
20:55:14 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure i will, i haven't proved anything this week.
20:55:25 <fizzie> I don't even want to guesstimate how much the unlimited-period archive access is.
20:55:47 <fizzie> $64495 for online access to all IEEE conference proceedings.
20:56:14 <oklopol> what does IEEE cover? is that like, all the boring CS?
20:56:38 <fizzie> Also other engineering.
20:56:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, what does ACM cost?
20:57:03 <Vorpal> I used IEEE way more than ACM though
20:57:32 <fizzie> I think ACM had somewhat more reasonable fees for a single person. For an institution, it's probably something absurd.
20:57:53 <oklopol> anyhow you can put your articles on your own page even if you publish them, at least with most publishers
20:58:06 <oklopol> so i don't get why anyone wouldn't
20:58:26 <fizzie> With IEEE you sort-of can, with some restrictions.
20:59:05 <oklopol> the springer copyright form i always have to sign at least lets you do that (it's always a slightly different form for some reason)
20:59:05 <Vorpal> oh? what restrictions?
20:59:16 <oklopol> (but with what seems to be the same data)
20:59:29 <fizzie> I've forgotten the details. At least you have to tell them about it.
20:59:42 <oklopol> i just put my articles up as such and hope i don't get in trouble.
20:59:43 <Vorpal> right, telling them about it seems reasonable
20:59:50 <oklopol> perhaps you should change the name or something
21:00:22 <fizzie> IEEE copyright assignment form is an actual copyright assignment; with some of the others, you just grant them a non-exclusive license.
21:00:44 <Vorpal> wouldn't want to publish there then
21:01:03 <fizzie> In the latter case you can obvsly put them wherever.
21:01:23 <oklopol> i talked to my supervisor about the springer copyright and he was like huh, you actually read that?
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21:01:50 <oklopol> for springer, you can't publish elsewhere for a year
21:01:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway how does that work internationally, iirc you can't sign away copyright in Swedish law (you can sign away the monetary rights, but not the artistic or intellectual rights)
21:01:57 <oklopol> so i guess it assigns copyright
21:02:18 <fizzie> oklopol: It could also be an exclusive sort of license contract.
21:02:47 <fizzie> Vorpal: I have zero idea about the actual legalities. But that's what their form says, anyway.
21:03:06 <oklopol> http://www.google.fi/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=springer%20copyright&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CFkQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.springer.com%2Fcda%2Fcontent%2Fdocument%2Fcda_downloaddocument%2Fcopyrightlncs.pdf%3FSGWID%3D0-0-45-154182-0&ei=7XTrT_-ROYfasgaSuaieBg&usg=AFQjCNGIqEDAa4JGXh7hI6AzPvkShTLv1w
21:03:24 <Vorpal> why through google? why not direct?
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21:03:42 <oklopol> because clicking on that downloaded that so it was faster like this
21:04:05 <oklopol> but i never remember google has all my search history and the color of my underpants encoded in the url
21:05:01 <fizzie> oklopol: Some Helsinki University library budget mentions they spent one million euros for an "Elsevier package", and about two million in the first half of the year for journal subscriptions and e-books.
21:05:12 <Vorpal> right, I wonder if there is a web site that allows you to easily extract what is known of the structure of that
21:05:24 <fizzie> (This is a random meeting memo so it's a bit vague.)
21:05:33 <Vorpal> I mean I have no idea what the ei=7XTrT_-ROYfasgaSuaieBg bit means for example
21:05:40 <Vorpal> the q= is obviously the search term
21:06:36 <fizzie> It's a big publishing company.
21:08:05 <fizzie> Vorpal: ACM digital library is $2000 to $17462 for an academic institution, depending on your "Tier". (Basically, amount of usage.)
21:08:24 <Vorpal> these numbers are so crazy
21:09:17 <fizzie> oklopol: Actually I have a (second-author) paper in an Elsevier journal that just two weeks ago got the final acceptance letter.
21:09:31 <fizzie> They asked some bizarre questions.
21:11:48 <fizzie> Vorpal: http://sprunge.us/cOhM -- nothing too strange, but that's a pretty random list.
21:12:15 <fizzie> Don't know if Arthritis Research UK
21:12:24 <oklopol> us government is on springers thing too
21:12:27 <fizzie> funds a lot of speech recognition work.
21:12:54 <fizzie> Or the British Heart Foundation.
21:13:17 <Vorpal> why that specific list I wonder
21:13:49 <oklopol> okay the last part if very weird
21:14:04 <Vorpal> I wonder what "Telethon Italy" is... I can only find Italian pages when googling
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21:16:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, what is up with the line breaks and the leading + in that paste btw?
21:16:54 <fizzie> Vorpal: Email client line-wrap indicator.
21:17:32 <Vorpal> rather dumb line wrapping, doesn't even handle the indentation correctly
21:17:59 <fizzie> I don't think it should.
21:19:23 <Vorpal> hm, the android youtube app seems to be devoid of the usual youtube ads. How surprising
21:19:26 <fizzie> It's not like e.g. Emacs would add empty space at start of continuation lines even if the lines were indented, either.
21:23:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, LaTeX would though
21:25:22 <fizzie> Well, that's different kind of line wrapping. This was just from edge of terminal, with a continuation line indicator.
21:26:01 <fizzie> Perhaps mutt has some actual wrap-to-specified-width functionality too, not sure.
21:35:43 <Taneb> Hey, should I try to learn Java, or should I go back to Python?
21:35:57 <Vorpal> Taneb, why those two languages?
21:36:08 <Vorpal> why not something like x86 asm or haskell?
21:36:17 <Taneb> I'm on Haskell at the moment
21:36:26 <Vorpal> Taneb, so x86 asm it is then
21:36:27 <Taneb> And the man said an imperative language would help
21:36:52 <Gregor> http://wwwapps.ups.com/WebTracking/track?HTMLVersion=5.0&loc=xx-XX&trackNums=1Z317F350356043847&track.y=10l
21:36:54 <Taneb> The man at the Oxford University Open Day in the Computer Science section
21:36:57 <Gregor> Apparently they just give my package to hookers now.
21:37:07 <Vorpal> Taneb, err, they would help with what?
21:37:24 <Taneb> First year, there's a module of Scala
21:37:31 <Vorpal> java is only useful because it is faster than python and runs on many platforms. Such as Android
21:37:37 <Taneb> And the man wanted to teach everyone Scala
21:38:03 <Taneb> And he said Java and/or Python are good background
21:38:16 <Vorpal> virtually all Java programming I have done has either been for android, or server and desktop software to complement those android programs
21:45:50 <fizzie> Taneb: x86 asm is certainly very imperative, FWIW.
21:45:56 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, that's the long term plan
21:46:12 <Taneb> Short term plan is to avoid Scala as much at possible
21:46:38 <Taneb> fizzie, but that's more blow-y up launch all the missiles than C!
21:46:54 <fizzie> Medium-term plan is to paradoxically both learn *and* avoid Scala.
21:48:10 <fizzie> There's alwaysthe coin-flip solution.
21:48:33 <Taneb> fizzie, medium term plan is to learn enough about the emperors from Tiberius to Domitian such that I don't regret my option choices
21:49:47 <Taneb> You're in Scotland so you call them silly things like "Highers"
21:50:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait I forget, are you in your last year of school now or not.
21:50:21 <fizzie> Highlanders. There can be only one (choice).
21:50:34 <Taneb> Will be certainly in September
21:50:47 <fizzie> Are there ASS levels, too?
21:51:05 <Taneb> Nah, it goes AS to A2 for some stupid reason
21:53:36 <Taneb> Apparently, Python is available on Mac OS X /and/ Unix systems!
21:53:38 <fizzie> There was some sort of letter code for foreign languages depending on how early you started them. I think I had A1 Swedish, A2 English and B2 German.
21:54:03 <Taneb> Vorpal, besides the point
21:54:03 <Vorpal> Taneb, and java is available on that and many more platforms
21:54:24 <fizzie> Taneb: Java is available only on the Atari 5200, I think.
21:54:28 <Taneb> Aaaaah xkcd is right
21:54:48 <Taneb> smileys and parentheses
21:55:19 <Vorpal> I don't remember such an xkcd
21:55:21 <Phantom_Hoover> It's awkward to fit smilies at the end of parenthetical statements.
21:55:25 <Taneb> http://xkcd.com/541/
21:55:38 <Vorpal> unless it is something like :D or :P
21:55:59 <fizzie> :P) can look like a malformed nose too.
21:56:16 <Taneb> (how about this :C)
21:56:22 <Taneb> Still a nose, dammit
21:56:35 <Taneb> UPSIDE DOWN AAARGH
21:56:57 <Vorpal> Taneb, what about -_- style smilies
21:58:02 <Vorpal> Taneb, I don't know a non-rotated equivalent to ":)" though
22:01:21 * oerjan puts on his birthday hat <:)
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22:04:26 <shachaf> oerjan: Don't worry, soon you'll be getting farther and farther from 60 every birthday.
22:06:00 <fizzie> Taneb: In ^_^) the paren looks like some sort of an ear thing.
22:06:18 <Taneb> What have you done, Randall
22:06:23 <Taneb> WHAT HAVE YOU DONE!
22:06:55 <oerjan> doomed our civilization, that's what
22:07:29 <fizzie> oerjan: When it's chri... I mean, year-end-holiday-time, you can just concatenate an asterisk to get a thematically appropriate *<:) hat.
22:07:47 <fizzie> Vorpal: And ^_^D is a N-gage owner.
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23:12:29 <quintopia> !bfjoust brachiation >->(-)*5(>+)*4(>[(<)*3(+)*7<<(+[<{}>(-)*50<(-)*50<(-)*15>>(>--[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*9([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%14[-]][+][-])*27](+)*50)*3 (>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*9([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%14[-]][+][-])*27](-)*50)*2(>)*7 (>[(-)*9([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%14[-]][+][-])*22])%28]++)*22>(-)*115[-][+][-]
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01:23:46 <tswett> Hi. I'm looking for a DBMS where I can easily browse through tables, click things in order to insert new rows, and display data in various graphical ways.
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01:24:38 <tswett> As nice as SQL is, if I want to view an entire table, I do not want to type "SELECT * FROM mytable" and browse through the output on my terminal.
01:25:45 <tswett> As barfworthy as Microsoft is, Microsoft Access does pretty much everything I want, except be free.
01:26:38 <quintopia> i don't know if people still use that
01:27:15 <tswett> I've tried phpMyAdmin, and it's pretty nice, but I'd like to have something self-contained.
01:28:25 <quintopia> apparently you can buy books on the subject
01:29:23 <quintopia> http://squirrel-sql.sourceforge.net/ here's some thingy
01:29:51 <quintopia> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_database_tools anyd this list
01:32:40 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
01:32:51 <EgoBot> 56 ++++++++[>+++++++++++++>+>><<<<-]>.---.+++++++.++++.>++. [303]
01:33:28 <quintopia> oh cmon egobot, you can do better than that
01:34:18 <quintopia> !bf ++++++++[>+++++++++++++>+<<-]>.---.+++++++.++++.>++.
01:34:30 <quintopia> boom egobot. four characters shorter!
01:42:56 <quintopia> @tell Gregor bfjoust is broke. maybe my attempted replacement for the bash script is broke? I DON'T KNOW ENOUGH TO FIX IT GREGOR D:
01:57:11 <tswett> It's not free, but it looks fancy.
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02:24:37 <itidus21> I have fallen and I can't get up.
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04:03:30 <Sgeo> Magsbot has some database functionality, and it's free
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04:03:49 <Sgeo> Although it's hardly intended for database manipulation, it ... can... on Windows
04:04:08 <Sgeo> iirc it likes Comic Sans for stuff
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06:16:51 <augur_> what are you doing in here?!
06:17:28 <pikhq_> augur_: #esoteric is stealing #haskell, person by person.
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06:20:15 <fizzie> tswett: OpenOffice.Org Base, of course.
06:21:41 <kmc> it's one thing to use PHP for your project
06:21:50 <kmc> but quite another to be so proud of it that you put "php" in the name of your project
06:22:38 <fizzie> I think I tried out that wxWidgetsy PostgreSQL admin thing, pgAdmin, once. It was reasonable, but it's for Postgres.
06:22:58 <shachaf> kmc: Particularly when your project is PHP?
06:24:19 <fizzie> Anyway, OOo Base can speak to at least MySQL and Postgres, plus anything JDBC/ODBCable. It's probably perfectly horrible, though.
06:26:25 <edwardk> augur: i used to lurk in here long before you started ;)
06:26:37 <augur_> when did you start coming here?
06:26:56 <edwardk> besides, how else am i going to stalk kmc?
06:27:15 <augur_> when did you start coming here?
06:27:29 <augur_> ANSWER THE QUESTION EDWARDK
06:27:36 <augur_> THIS SILENCE IS UNACCEPTABLE
06:28:17 <edwardk> i wandered back a few days ago, but i think i first wandered in here somewhere around 2007-2008
06:28:32 <augur_> i also suppose i can ask you this then, with some expectation of an actual answer:
06:28:46 <augur_> what is one of the weirdest paradigm esolangs
06:29:32 <augur_> i got rather bored with esolangs because they just inevitably turn out to be some annoying cipher of brainfuck or shit like that
06:29:50 <augur_> andi t gets boring after a while, its just a weird machine, nothing truly .. esoteric
06:30:17 <edwardk> hrmm. i tend towards the interesting, i rather enjoy the malbolge/icfp2006 style where you need to more or less cryptanalyze to find a usable subset
06:31:22 <augur_> i want to find esolangs that are easy to read, but hard to comprehend how to use because they work so oddly
06:32:07 <edwardk> balance. that was the name of the esolang in icfp2006 i found fun
06:33:03 <kmc> augur_: yeah i agree
06:33:15 <kmc> the brainfuck clones get very little respect here
06:34:18 <kmc> i agree that having weird syntax is the least interesting way a programming language can be weird
06:34:28 <edwardk> we need a dependently typed esolang
06:34:35 <kmc> but syntax always gets disproportionate attention
06:34:38 <augur_> edwardk: isnt that called agda?
06:34:38 <kmc> esolangs are no different i guess
06:34:50 <augur_> edwardk: actually i think coq is more that
06:35:13 <kmc> so what are some cool esolangs with "normal-looking" syntax?
06:35:34 <kmc> there are some where, like, each statement executes with some probability
06:35:34 <itidus21> i don't understand functional languages at all, but it seems to me the most interesting divergence is between functional and imperative
06:35:52 <kmc> itidus21: those are bullshit categories which mean nothing
06:35:55 <augur_> functional languages are easy!
06:36:00 <kmc> every decent language supports both functional and imperative code
06:36:19 <kmc> in fact you can do a lot of great stuff by using the two styles together
06:36:29 <kmc> not just "this part is functional, this part is imperative"
06:36:34 <kmc> but actually using the ideas at the same time
06:36:58 <kmc> Haskell makes this very clear because "function" and "imperative action" are two distinct first-class data types
06:37:14 <kmc> you can have a function that returns an action, or takes an action as an argument, or an action which produces a function
06:37:41 <kmc> quintopia: i mean looking like some of the popular non-esoteric languages
06:38:53 <itidus21> my conception of functional is basically : left_parenthesis operator operands right_parenthesis
06:38:56 <quintopia> well there's that one whosename i cant remember
06:39:10 <kmc> itidus21: ...
06:39:22 <quintopia> where everything can be overloaded
06:40:21 <augur_> itidus21: as opposed to imperative, which is operator left_parenthesis operands right_parenthesis
06:40:27 <itidus21> i wish i was joking augur.. i plan to figure out what i don't know gradually
06:40:39 <augur_> itidus21: have you tried watching SICP?
06:40:52 <kmc> this is like the idea that a language is object oriented if you write x.f(y) instead of f(x,y)
06:41:13 <quintopia> there is ORK which is the logical extreme of smalltalk
06:41:14 <augur_> kmc: you mean it isnt?!
06:41:16 <itidus21> ok so perhaps it's a matter of types
06:41:42 <kmc> itidus21: why don't you read a book instead of making wild-ass guesses
06:42:51 <augur_> itidus21: functional programming is basically focused around things returning values, as opposed to setting variables
06:43:19 <itidus21> i tried reading the wiki page about continuation
06:43:30 <itidus21> and it occured to me that the problem is
06:43:31 <augur_> oh god why would you do that
06:43:39 <augur_> thats a horrible thing to do
06:43:48 <augur_> there, edwardk, i think thats it, continuations
06:44:01 <augur_> thats the most mind rending esolang ever, a language with nothing but continuations
06:44:11 <edwardk> you could adapt my sigma-only dependent type system to make an esolang
06:44:22 <itidus21> in an imperative language, if you were to do a goto with arguments, there would be nothing to catch the arguments
06:44:27 <edwardk> it requires you to work in continuation passing style since lambdas can only yield contradictions
06:45:23 <edwardk> basically take the 'haskell is not not ml' paper and swap to a dependent type system
06:45:48 <kmc> writing that compiler from lambda calc to pi calc was fun
06:45:49 <augur_> itidus21: you should read lyah
06:45:58 <kmc> it's kind of like a continuations-only language
06:46:06 <kmc> imo learning haskell is not the best way to learn FP
06:46:09 <kmc> there are too many distractions
06:46:11 <quintopia> i once invented a great semi-functional language
06:46:13 <kmc> haskell is a weird functional language
06:46:24 <edwardk> i should redo that lambda-to-pi calc thing as another 'bound' example
06:46:36 <kmc> i wonder how my approach to that compiler compares to milner's
06:46:39 <kmc> i bet the latter is simpler
06:46:46 <itidus21> my BASIC pseudocode of .. 10 IF A = 5 GOTO 30(7,6) 20 PRINT TEST 30 PRINT ARG1,ARG2
06:46:46 <augur_> edwardk: you should write a pi-calculus tutorial!
06:46:56 <kmc> but i'm just proud of myself for figuring out *a* way on my own :3
06:47:10 <itidus21> if A != 5 then when it reaches line 30, then there is no arg1 or arg2
06:47:27 <kmc> itidus21: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbnjusltDHk
06:47:31 <kmc> edwardk: no
06:48:15 <quintopia> itidus21: just make the line before it also end with (7,6)
06:48:24 <edwardk> https://github.com/ekmett/bound has a few nice examples. notably it makes it a lot easier to deal with bound variables and substiution. you just use Monad and Traversable
06:48:46 <kmc> edwardk: cool
06:49:13 <itidus21> quintopia: my example doesn't really make any sense... its probably contradictory
06:49:31 <edwardk> been rewriting our entire compiler to use this approach, its cleaning up a lot of bugs =)
06:50:38 <itidus21> quintopia: well its how im trying to concieve of continuations
06:52:26 <edwardk> i'm thinking about writing a post about how 'generalized de bruijn makes de bruijn indices succ less'
06:53:30 <kmc> what's the generalization?
06:53:39 <edwardk> you can 'succ' trees rather than just variables
06:53:50 <edwardk> gives you O(1) weakening instead of requiring a big traversal
06:54:06 <edwardk> and makes it cheaper to do instantiation because instantiation doesn't have to step into a succ'd tree
06:54:33 <edwardk> basically you give me a monad 'f' and i give you a monad transformer:
06:54:37 <augur_> i feel you should write a blog post about this
06:54:53 <edwardk> newtype Scope b f a = Scope (f (Either b (f a)))
06:55:10 <edwardk> to lift i use lift = Scope . return . Right
06:55:26 <edwardk> which is cheaper than the lift from EitherT
06:56:12 <edwardk> then you can just use newtype Exp a = Var a | Exp a :@ Exp a | Lam (Scope () Exp a) -- to get binding dealt with, >>= skips over bound variables gracefully
06:56:57 <edwardk> and you can use more expotic binders by letting b be something other than () to get simultaneous substitution another generalization on de bruijn
06:57:15 <kmc> ok so let me try to understand the b = () case first
06:57:16 <edwardk> er s/newtype/data obviously
06:57:21 <itidus21> ok suppose I had a program in a language in my head PRINT AREA; AREA = LENGTH x WIDTH; and it waited for me to tell it LENGTH=5; WIDTH=4; then it proceeded to work out AREA=20; PRINT 20
06:57:26 <kmc> newtype Scope f a = Scope (f (Maybe (f a)))
06:58:22 <edwardk> write the monad, the MonadTrans and Traversable instances for that
06:58:27 <kmc> so the identity function is Lam (Scope (Var Nothing)) ?
06:59:22 <kmc> that seems weird though
06:59:24 <edwardk> and you can only have as many succ's as levels, with everything else being a free variable, so you have no illegal uses of bound variables
06:59:29 <kmc> because i can put a lambda term "inside" a Var
06:59:45 <kmc> so what does that mean?
06:59:48 <edwardk> the Var itself is a bad name
07:00:04 <kmc> oh it means like "discard an outer level of binders"?
07:00:34 <edwardk> you can weaken entire trees
07:00:54 <edwardk> https://github.com/ekmett/bound/blob/master/src/Bound/Scope.hs
07:01:05 <edwardk> abstract and instantiate are the key combinators
07:01:21 <edwardk> abstract1 and instantiate1 are for use as a MaybeT analogue
07:02:28 <itidus21> the impression i got from what i read was that i could say PRINT LABEL1; GOTO LABEL1(LABEL2); GOTO LABEL2(4 * LABEL3); GOTO LABEL3(5)
07:02:31 <edwardk> but you can mix and match the types b you use at each level
07:02:47 <edwardk> https://github.com/ekmett/bound/blob/master/examples/Simple.hs#L20 uses () for Lam and Int for Let
07:02:52 <itidus21> ahh i need to learn to be more cogent
07:04:24 <edwardk> i should probably do a boston haskell talk on it
07:05:06 <edwardk> its not entirely novel. everything here has appeared in papers before. bird and patterson describe this operation, but don't lock it up in a monad transformer, and use rank 2 types to pull it off
07:05:32 <edwardk> and the version of abstract and instantiate i use comes from mcbride's "i'm not a number: i am a free variable"
07:05:52 <edwardk> (along with the notion of using Scope as a separate type)
07:08:13 <edwardk> the abstract combinator makes it easy to get lam "x" (Var "x") to desugar to the type you gave though
07:11:25 <edwardk> you can come up with a more ad hoc version that just uses a GADT for your term type
07:12:06 <edwardk> data Term a where Var :: a -> Term a; Bound :: !Int -> Term (Maybe a); Free :: Term a -> Term (Maybe a); other fields
07:12:19 <edwardk> er Bound :: !Int -> Term (Either Int a)
07:12:33 <edwardk> and Free :: Term a -> Term (Either b a)
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08:14:05 <itidus21> i find it hard to dismiss the fact that if there is any correlation between piety and intelligence, that the pious tend to be more intelligent
08:14:19 <itidus21> could i say anything more ignorant and divisive?
08:16:17 <Taneb> Well, in times where the Church was the primary literary body in western Europe, that would have been true
08:16:47 <Taneb> Aaah, I'm just making crap up
08:17:00 <itidus21> now you know how i feel behind everything i say!
08:18:15 <itidus21> i might not actually know the working definition of pious when i say this though
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08:19:09 <itidus21> i think, what i actually mean is
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08:19:37 <kmc> itidus21: why do you do it
08:19:39 <itidus21> that one cannot argue against any religion or belief by sampling the intelligence of it's members
08:19:54 <kmc> itidus21: i agree that is logicall unsound
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08:19:58 <itidus21> with a maximally biased sample
08:21:08 <kmc> itidus21: why do you say these things
08:21:14 <kmc> what do you get out of it
08:21:38 <kmc> by your own admission the things you say are completely ignorant and unfounded
08:21:42 <kmc> whether about religion or programming languages
08:22:39 <itidus21> i can read things, or i can find something to say in irc
08:22:58 <kmc> but do you actually learn anything from IRC
08:23:15 <kmc> for all the nonsensical things you've said about haskell, have you learned one true fact about haskell?
08:24:35 <kmc> there is a difference between saying something slightly incorrect and getting a correction
08:24:47 <kmc> versus saying things that are so nonsensically wrong that we don't even know where to start
08:24:56 <kmc> the latter seems like a poor way to learn
08:25:38 <kmc> maybe i sound angry but honestly i am just completely baffled
08:26:34 <itidus21> these days i find it difficult to concentrate.
08:27:26 <itidus21> my doctor has been asking me lately if i find it difficult to do so.. and i am not sure if i do or if i'm just lazy
08:28:58 <itidus21> i can read comic books, but i don't think that counts
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08:31:58 <Taneb> I'm making a github account
08:32:15 <itidus21> basically i'm trying to build a map in my mind of programming languages
08:32:30 <Taneb> itidus21, I've tried to do that
08:33:01 <kmc> Taneb: github is useful
08:36:01 <itidus21> this might not be relevant, but i can't see any practical use of self-reproducing machines
08:36:31 <itidus21> except perhaps in the study of biology and manufacturing
08:39:09 * kmc head explode
08:39:19 <kmc> YOU ARE A SELF-REPRODUCING MACHINE
08:39:52 * coppro enjoys tricking his body into believeing it's reproducing.
08:39:55 <kmc> itidus21 is a robot sent from the future to explode heads
08:40:23 <itidus21> it has been proven long ago that there is no perfect body
08:42:26 <kmc> QUANTUM-LANGUAGE-PARSE-SYNTAX-GRAMMAR is the Correct Language, as it is based on fact. There is no ambiguity with anything Quantum, it is purely Mathematical. Have you ever thought of Language being Mathematical?
08:42:42 <fizzie> Taneb: Do you need help in making a Github account, or help in avoiding making one?
08:43:01 <fizzie> (I don't have help available for either, just curious.)
08:43:06 <shachaf> kmc: DON'T CALL ME A SELF-REPRODUCING MACHINE!
08:43:57 <fizzie> Also sounds like JUDGE :David-Wynn: Miller there.
08:45:11 <itidus21> kmc: based on what i have just said, it is perhaps best that "<kmc> what do you get out of it" remains unanswered
08:45:14 <fizzie> I tried to watch some sovereign-citizen courtroom appearances once, but couldn't for more than a minute, due to acute embarrassment.
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08:46:01 <itidus21> you're not being paid enough to be my therapist
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08:47:27 <kmc> fizzie: are they online somewhere?
08:48:01 <ais523> [09:44] <kerio> what's windows?
08:48:02 <ais523> [09:45] <ais523> err, disregarding that due to cognitive dissonance due to meme from another channel
08:48:05 <ais523> I'm sure you people will understand :)
08:48:09 <itidus21> a body implies a non-body.. is the perfection of a body a function of the non-body?
08:48:23 <ais523> (there's a bit of relevant context but you can probably guess what it is from context)
08:48:34 <itidus21> well.. i always have some inane comment to add
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08:50:49 <fizzie> kmc: They were a couple of links from some blog posting. I'm sure similar stuff is findable by the usual means, though.
08:51:50 <fizzie> (Also easier to come by are plain transcripts, but I couldn't actually manage to read those either.)
08:51:54 <itidus21> i'm out of my programming depth... i spent longer than necessary at school towards a degree.. and yet i dropped out before completing it
08:52:29 <nortti> anyone know if there is any development on k-meleon?
08:52:33 <itidus21> so what i get out of it is that i insist on treading water in the deep end of the pool
08:53:28 <fizzie> K-meleon sounds like a clustering algorithm. You know, k-means, k-medians, k-medoids, k-meleon.
08:54:03 <nortti> well it is mozilla based browser with xul bullshit removed
08:54:03 <fizzie> It uses the meleons of the clusters somehow, probably.
08:54:18 <nortti> like camino but for windows
08:54:39 <fizzie> No, I'm pretty sure it's a clustering algorithm, despite all evidence to contrary.
08:54:57 <fizzie> You associate each point with the closest meleon.
08:56:52 <nortti> speaking of which is there mozilla-with-xul-bullshit-removed for linux?
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08:59:13 <pikhq_> "Web" (formerly Epiphany)
08:59:25 <pikhq_> Wait, fuck, they switched to Webkit.
09:00:00 <nortti> yeah. galeon uses webkit too, right?
09:00:17 <pikhq_> Galeon is unmaintained.
09:00:34 <kmc> lol at renaming it to "Web"
09:00:39 <kmc> GUYS CAN WE BE APPLE TOO??
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09:01:12 <nortti> well at least they didn't rename in "My country" like in red star os
09:01:24 <kmc> you know if you went back to 2000 and said that Konqueror's HTML engine was going to take over the world, people would laugh at you
09:02:26 <fizzie> If OOo made a browser, it'd probably be called "Browse".
09:03:52 <pikhq_> Nah, Oracle took over. It'd be called "Oracle Browser" and have a per-seat license.
09:04:08 <kmc> Oracle Unbreakable Enterprise Browser
09:04:54 <pikhq_> And require a dedicated workstation, as well as a dedicated admin, for each user.
09:04:55 <kmc> btw, did you know Oracle Linux is now freely available?
09:04:59 <kmc> http://public-yum.oracle.com/
09:05:28 <kmc> oracle has a RHEL-based linux distro
09:06:01 <kmc> like CentOS and SciLinux, it is largely built from redhat's sources
09:06:37 <kmc> like Red Hat, they make money on support contracts
09:06:47 <kmc> but unlike Red Hat, you can download the binaries for free without a support contract
09:08:08 <itidus21> kmc: i guess it's that i want to reject as much as possible, without rejecting too much. i am much interested in writing my own languages. with intended end applications of computer games
09:08:12 <fizzie> Didn't they just dump the whole thing to Apache?
09:08:24 <fizzie> I'm sure Apache could call it "Browse".
09:08:55 <fizzie> Though I'm annoyed that it has components like Draw, Impress, but then the word processing part is Writer.
09:08:58 <kmc> BrowserFactory
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09:10:35 <itidus21> people doing the same things get the same results, people following the same paths find the same destinations. with such ideas in mind, i want to wander blindfolded and intoxicated!
09:11:36 <fizzie> Should be OpenOffice Writer (word processing), OpenOffice Artist (vector graphics), OpenOffice Accountant (spreadsheets), OpenOffice Orator (presentations), OpenOffice Mathematician (equation editor) and so on, to follow the lead of 'Writer'.
09:12:26 <fizzie> Also back when they still had that '.org' in the name, they could've abbreviated OpenOffice.org Orator as OOoO.
09:12:33 <oerjan> itidus21: there's a flip side to that, at least in mathematics - you need to know what others have done in order to avoid the same mistakes
09:12:49 <kmc> oerjan: good thing programming has nothing to do with mathematics, am i rite?
09:13:07 <Taneb> Past fizzie, I don't know!
09:13:12 <oerjan> kmc: very good. hand me that curry-howard screwdriver, will you?
09:13:55 <kmc> in programming it is ok to make the same mistakes over and over for decades
09:14:06 <kmc> in fact this is industry standard and people will laugh at you if you propose to do otherwise
09:14:15 <kmc> so i think itidus21 has picked a good field
09:14:45 <oerjan> don't worry, you just have to learn lisp, and then you can learn all the mistakes in their original form!
09:14:49 <itidus21> i'm not in the field yet though... i do not envision waking up one day to be paid to code
09:15:11 <Taneb> I know have a github account
09:15:26 <kmc> Taneb: now you can post image macros on all those HILARIOUS javascript and ruby bugs!
09:15:48 <itidus21> Taneb: that's like knowing where the bottleshop is after emptying all your bottles of booze
09:18:13 <itidus21> oerjan: well, programming will be saved by JVM and Microsoft's CLI
09:20:06 <kmc> yeah right
09:20:33 <Taneb> What does a .gitignore do!?
09:20:43 <kmc> tells git that certain files should not be tracked
09:20:49 <kmc> meaning they won't show up as untracked in 'git status'
09:21:10 <kmc> and also it warns if you try to 'git add' one
09:21:23 <kmc> used for build products, editor droppings, etc
09:21:29 <kmc> man gitignore
09:21:36 <itidus21> saved = trying to create API patenting law
09:22:01 <oerjan> itidus21: needs more dependent types
09:24:29 <itidus21> well, i believe that programming and even math isn't infact difficult. it's just that all real-world examples of programming and math are too complex or of low quality
09:25:42 * oerjan hits itidus21 with the saucepan ===\__/
09:25:51 <oerjan> SORRY, YOU CROSSED A BORDER THERE
09:26:05 <itidus21> as i say this i begin to think about how i know what multiplication is
09:26:05 <oerjan> nearly lost to humanity
09:26:22 <itidus21> and i learned at school obviously
09:29:16 <itidus21> one thing i have realized is that one reason astronomy seems difficult is because i imagine the scale relative to my own scale
09:29:55 <itidus21> but if i imagine a planet being the size of an apple, then the whole question of scale seems silly
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09:30:54 <itidus21> just gotta plug in the numbers systematically
09:34:14 <itidus21> otherwise it's difficult for exactly the same reasons that to an unaided observer the sky looks like it's covered in white spots
09:37:24 <fizzie> if (status = UNDER_ATTACK) launch_nuclear_missiles(); /* find the bug */
09:38:12 <itidus21> well i can still see shachaf's text onscreen
09:38:25 <fizzie> I don't think that quite qualifies as a bug.
09:38:29 <fizzie> Though I suppose it might.
09:39:30 <oerjan> fizzie: perfectly valid conservative programming
09:40:10 <itidus21> the bug is in the language which allows such code to be valid
09:41:06 <fizzie> Shachaf University saves the world again.
09:42:02 <oerjan> shachaf university always keeps proper backups
09:43:02 <itidus21> im trying to figure out why i didn't spot that
09:43:46 <itidus21> i guess i always assuemed that in, if (a=b) c(); , that b!= 0
09:44:57 <Taneb> Only if c is called
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09:47:08 <itidus21> or i might have assumed that a status constant != 0
09:57:52 <fizzie> AẞUMED. (Thank you, Unicode 5.1.)
09:58:36 <fizzie> (U+1E9E LATIN CAPITAL LETTER SHARP S was added in 5.1.)
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10:05:44 <shachaf> Аге ше шгітіиб іи сугілліc?
10:13:59 <kmc> horse ebooks
10:14:54 <kmc> And if you haven t noticed, crepes have come a long way
10:15:28 <shachaf> kmc: Are you playing itidus21?
10:15:39 <kmc> itidus21 ebooks
10:15:46 <itidus21> it's best to let itidus21 play itidus21
10:16:07 <shachaf> Did you see what itidus21 just said?
10:16:23 <shachaf> It's a sensible and true statement!
10:16:29 <Taneb> I like how adverts for Internet Explorer are "We do stuff that pretty much every other major browser also does, but you've heard of us!"
10:16:41 <shachaf> Admittedly this statement wouldn't be necessary if it weren't for all of itidus21's other statements.
10:17:01 <itidus21> i'm working on such a statement as we speak
10:17:36 <kmc> While Sitting In Your Most Comfortable Chair, Quickly Discover The Missing Links That Rapidly Catapults Your Ability to Devastate, Humiliate
10:17:59 <shachaf> Are we Playing the capitalization Game Now
10:18:02 <kmc> Faithfully As An Oil Rig
10:18:08 <itidus21> what i do.. is guaranteed to blow your mind
10:18:12 <kmc> Fan Fan Fan Local Local Horse Steam Jet Fan Room and pillar- Room and pillar. Shaft Shaft What Cheer What Cheer Holliday
10:18:17 <itidus21> theres no ifs or buts about it
10:19:25 <itidus21> one integer has as much meaning as the next, but it is such a small subset of english expressions which have a discernable meaning, that i wonder if we intentionally leave room for meaningless expressions in order to create new meanings
10:20:36 <itidus21> but such an intention would be reifying the processes of language development
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10:23:04 <itidus21> but then again, we already create new meanings upon existing expressions
10:24:59 <itidus21> so where does this take me.. we could interpret a single symbol nondeterministically
10:25:14 <oerjan> well sometimes language needs cromulent embiggening
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10:28:44 <itidus21> Error: encountered non-deterministic expression. please be an oracle. your choices are 1)increment 2)decrement 3)set to 17
10:30:16 <itidus21> logging "user itidus21 has selected increment."
10:36:57 <AnotherTest> Is there a programming language that modifies it syntax to be correct yet?
10:47:06 <AnotherTest> Well it seems that in /// there is little syntax
10:47:58 <Deewiant> If you mean "modifies itself to do what the programmer meant", no; if you mean "does something regardless of what you type in", sure.
10:49:14 <AnotherTest> I mean the latter, that is, everything will be considered as correct syntax and will have a meaning
10:49:34 <oerjan> hm didn't oklotalk do something like that
10:49:55 <oerjan> or wait, was it oklopol's Clue
10:52:19 <oerjan> no, malbolge has strict restrictions on which characters can go in which positions
10:52:58 <AnotherTest> The language should have unicode as the alphabet
10:53:26 <Deewiant> There's UniCode, which is obviously unfinished.
10:53:38 <oerjan> /// has no problem using utf-8 i think :P
10:53:51 <fizzie> Deewiant: And Uniquode, too.
10:54:11 <fizzie> (It's even more unfinished.)
10:54:13 <Deewiant> Befunge-98 can use Unicode fine if the interpreter supports it, but it's not very interesting because most characters will just reflect the IP.
10:54:27 <fizzie> You can put in larger data values, though.
10:58:40 <fizzie> I wouldn't be surprised if many of the "2D" languages were in that sense syntax-free.
10:58:47 <fizzie> 2L seems to, for example.
11:01:47 <oerjan> one of Iota and Jot, i think...
11:02:57 <itidus21> yeah, it seems i have more ego left than i thought in relation to programming.
11:04:08 <itidus21> i think dijkstra might be conflicted about devoting his life's work to computers but opting not to use one
11:04:39 <itidus21> and apparently it's becoming a theme in silicon valley for people to send their kids to computer-less schools
11:05:00 <itidus21> maybe there is a wave of computer scientists who abhor computers on the horizon
11:06:04 <mroman> +[+[+<]>>-<]+> (14, 5) for 223
11:07:17 <mroman> and -[-[-<]>>-<]+> for 175, but there are already 14b solutions for 175
11:08:10 <itidus21> computers good for the economy though, but anything which is good for the economy is bad for the environment
11:08:40 * kmc head explode
11:09:02 <itidus21> it takes electricity to power the internet after all.
11:09:43 <mroman> +[>+>[+<]>+]>> sadly runs through the whole tape to produce 64 :(
11:18:48 <mroman> david.werecat accidentaly removed 223 :(
11:19:28 * oerjan thought he had checked such things...
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11:22:53 <mroman> That's some very freaky program I found there :)
11:23:05 <mroman> And It consumes 7 cells.
11:23:09 <mroman> But it's 1B shorter :D
11:24:33 <mroman> That is a very good range :)
11:25:09 <mroman> >+[+[>]<-<++]> (14, 8) wrapping for 59
11:27:47 <mroman> the [>] actually looks very suspicios.
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11:29:14 <oerjan> mroman: i agree with david_werecat that initial >'s should be used instead of solutions going to the left of start
11:32:01 <mroman> well then most of them are not valid in your terms.
11:32:06 <mroman> as they go way below zero
11:32:20 <mroman> especially the solution consuming up to 9 cells ;)
11:32:25 <oerjan> your new ones you mean?
11:33:18 <oerjan> they do seem to stretch the format
11:33:32 <mroman> The wiki did not specify that.
11:33:42 <mroman> I just presumed that wrapping applies to the tape as well ;)
11:33:59 <oerjan> oh, that's not assumed no.
11:34:10 <mroman> however, I added a comment to all my solution that they go below zero
11:35:25 <mroman> My list is not even complete
11:35:33 <mroman> I have around 10 more solutions like the previous ones.
11:35:54 <oerjan> it's more that these solutions are intended to be usable as subroutines in programs, which means there should be enough information to tell what surrounding cells are needed. and preferable in a machine-readable format (i've extracted it before, e.g. for pikhq_'s BFM system)
11:35:56 <mroman> Because solutions with a wrapping tape are way shorter.
11:36:10 <oerjan> i suppose the page should actually _say_ that somewhere :P
11:36:21 <mroman> Well, it should have :)
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11:37:24 <fizzie> oerjan: There's that discussion about a proposed format from 2010 but nothing seems to have come out of it.
11:40:03 <itidus21> "Surprisingly, [Hollerith] did not get the idea from the work of Babbage, but rather from watching a train conductor punch tickets." -- this is how one arrives at good ideas, watching train conductors
11:40:44 <fizzie> So staring at a superconductor must logically result in superb ideas.
11:41:56 <oerjan> a very cold hearted pun
11:44:38 <mroman> http://codepad.org/ETZz4afE
11:44:46 <mroman> ^- That's the output of the first 16 ranges.
11:44:57 <mroman> There are DOZENS of shorter solutions in that output
11:45:04 <mroman> but I assume they all need tape wrapping.
11:46:11 <oerjan> mroman: tape wrapping should be probably be mentioned specifically
11:46:53 <mroman> I already mentioned it in the comment for the corresponding entry
11:47:12 <mroman> But If you say that you won't allow it
11:47:13 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MP_rNaJ1vOw I could cry of happiness
11:47:18 <mroman> I won't even bother checking the output anymore
11:47:21 <oerjan> you mentioned it went to the left, but not that it went all the way _around_ the tape
11:47:21 <Sgeo> This song was in a game I used to play
11:47:27 <mroman> because it's of no use then ;)
11:47:29 <Sgeo> Never thought I'd find it independtly
11:47:36 <Sgeo> A google, just a few minutes ago, found it
11:47:43 <Sgeo> http://www.indiegamer.com/archives/t-208.html
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11:48:36 <oerjan> mroman: i interpreted your comment as saying that some of the cells used were to the left of the start, not that it used a circular tape
11:49:07 <fizzie> oerjan: A room-temperature pun would would be a very beneficial discovery indeed.
11:49:46 <oerjan> (wrapping cells, tape) could be the format, assuming they wrap on values as well
11:50:25 <mroman> Cells to the left and to the right are used.
11:50:37 <mroman> Which means that cell 0 < -> cell 255
11:50:52 <mroman> but of course, if you're at cell 100, it does not need wrapping, yes.
11:50:58 <oerjan> mroman: there's no assumption a tape has _length_ 256
11:51:19 <mroman> They don't require circular tape.
11:51:27 <mroman> They just consume cells to the left and to the right.
11:51:35 <oerjan> in fact if there is no mention, i would assume the tape needs to be no longer than the number of cells used
11:51:56 <oerjan> mroman: oh. well then inserting >'s at the beginning would be enough to disambiguate.
11:52:01 <mroman> Because all solutions actually requiring a circular tape only produce the right number with the same tape length :D
11:52:14 <mroman> oerjan: Yes, but then the solution is not shorter anymore ;)
11:52:34 <mroman> I'd have to add >>>>>>>> to some solution
11:52:41 <mroman> which would make them 7 B longer :)
11:53:09 <mroman> I could check if some solutions would still be shorter.
11:53:19 <oerjan> perhaps a different format for cell no. then? -7..2
11:53:35 <mroman> -[-[-<]>>+<]+> is 5B shorter
11:53:43 <mroman> so it might actually still be shorter.
11:54:14 <oerjan> mroman: it should say somewhere how _many_ cells to the left it uses
11:54:19 <mroman> >-[-[-<]>>+<]+> does not drop below zero anymore
11:55:48 <mroman> I'll add as many > as required to not drop below zero
11:58:12 <Sgeo> Awesome is awesome.
12:05:38 <mroman> so far 33 and 200 can stay
12:10:28 <mroman> Ok, there are still shorter solutions in the output to find with > added to the start \o/
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12:28:39 <mroman> does not even require me to add >
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13:07:30 <mroman> 22 new shorter non-drop-below-zero wrapping brainfuck constants
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13:08:03 <mroman> I have to automate this process though.
13:08:18 <mroman> I'm only at 1/3 of results yet :(
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13:10:30 <mroman> The smaller a program is, it consumes more cycles and more cells.
13:12:35 <mroman> Why is there no information included AT which cell a constant stops?
13:13:23 <mroman> Maybe if it uses three cells it might stop at the second
13:14:12 <mroman> Which would not be that convenient :)
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13:45:01 <Vorpal> wow I found a huge beetle (approx 2.5 cm in length) on the stairs outside. Iridescent... Never seen anything like it
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13:53:18 <Taneb> Vorpal, let it bite you, you may get superpowers!
13:53:34 <Vorpal> I'll upload some photos in a second
13:57:40 <Taneb> The weather looks ominous
13:58:15 <Vorpal> I wish my upload speed was higher than 1 Mbit/s...
13:58:56 <Taneb> Heh, that's like, one eighth of mine
13:59:04 <Taneb> Except I think I've reached my data limit
13:59:13 <Vorpal> Taneb, I have 8 mbit/s down and 1 mbit/s up
13:59:31 <Taneb> 8 mbit/s down, barely anything up
14:00:05 <mroman> at least you have 1 mbit/s up :)
14:00:10 <Vorpal> only one image left to upload now
14:00:35 <Vorpal> http://www.dropbox.com/gallery/87474461/1/Beetle?h=516644
14:00:54 <Vorpal> the beetle in question was approximately 2 cm
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14:01:17 <Taneb> Are there many spiders in Sweden?
14:01:38 <Vorpal> Taneb, well the usual ones, no poisonous ones though.
14:01:48 <Taneb> How large do they get?
14:01:53 <Vorpal> but probably less than some parts of the world, and more than others
14:02:11 <Vorpal> Taneb, not sure. I tend to kill the ones I see (I don't like spiders)
14:02:28 <Taneb> (I may have to warn an arachnophobic Swedenophile)
14:02:40 <Vorpal> Taneb, how large to they get in UK?
14:03:08 <boily> Vorpal: nice beetle!
14:03:14 <Taneb> Vorpal, the largest could fit easily into the bottom of a pint glass
14:03:23 <Vorpal> boily, yeah, right on my doorstep a few minutes ago
14:03:35 <Vorpal> Taneb, how large is a pint glass?
14:04:06 <Vorpal> right, what about the dimensions though? You could have a very narrow and tall one for example
14:04:18 <Vorpal> or a very wide and low one
14:05:46 <Taneb> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pint_Glass_(Pub).svg
14:06:04 <Vorpal> Taneb, I don't see any scale on that?
14:06:17 <Vorpal> just give me the diameter or something (metric)
14:06:40 <Vorpal> and diameter? Since that is what is relevant here
14:06:56 <Taneb> 2.5 centimetres wider in diameter at the top than the bottom
14:07:17 <Vorpal> that still doesn't help
14:07:29 <Taneb> Comfortable to hold in your hand?
14:07:32 <Deewiant> He's just reading the wikipedia article, give him some time
14:07:48 <Deewiant> (Although it doesn't look like it has the diameter measurement)
14:08:04 <Vorpal> well then, in that case I don't know if there are spiders larger than that
14:08:18 <Vorpal> I have seen some with very long legs (and very small body usually)
14:08:41 <Vorpal> anyway I wonder which species that beetle I found is
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14:09:05 <Deewiant> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvestmen
14:09:30 <Vorpal> too spidery for my taste anyway
14:09:56 <Vorpal> but yeah I would really like to know the species of http://www.dropbox.com/gallery/87474461/1/Beetle?h=516644
14:10:00 <Vorpal> no idea how to find out
14:10:20 <Vorpal> oh? I never seen them before
14:10:26 <Vorpal> very pretty, also really large
14:11:05 <Vorpal> it pulled in it's legs when I got close, so that is why it is curled up in the photos
14:11:18 <Vorpal> (btw, I think for a phone camera that was fairly good)
14:12:09 <Deewiant> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotinis_mutabilis ?
14:13:12 <Vorpal> it was strongly iridescent green on the back
14:14:37 * Sgeo whats at the existence of .rmi
14:15:03 <Sgeo> A MIDI in a RIFF thingy
14:15:06 <Sgeo> http://www.fileinfo.com/extension/rmi
14:15:16 <Gregor> Vorpal: Are those little protrusions legs? 'cuz if so, that ain't a beetle...
14:15:17 <lambdabot> Gregor: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
14:15:25 <lambdabot> quintopia said 12h 32m 28s ago: bfjoust is broke. maybe my attempted replacement for the bash script is broke? I DON'T KNOW ENOUGH TO FIX IT GREGOR D:
14:15:37 <Gregor> I didn't change anything...
14:15:51 <Vorpal> Gregor, hm? What protursions? It had legs out, but it pulled them in when I got near. I think it wants to be a turtle when it grows up ;)
14:16:01 <Sgeo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_Interchange_File_Format#Initial_difficulties_with_MIDI_Files
14:16:18 <Vorpal> Gregor, you can see the legs by the side in the 5th image
14:16:40 <Gregor> Vorpal: Oh, I didn't realize it was a series X_X
14:18:13 <Vorpal> Gregor, didn't the link go to some overview album page or something? It does for me, though I'm logged into my dropbox account
14:18:48 <Gregor> Vorpal: It went to a particular image, with a series of images at the top in a menubar.
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14:18:57 <Deewiant> Vorpal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cetonia_aurata
14:19:37 <Sgeo> DAMN. IT. WEB. ARCHIVE.
14:19:50 <Vorpal> Deewiant, looks like it, mine was more yellow green than the wikipedia picture though
14:19:56 <Sgeo> If I search for a URL, I do NOT want to be redirected based on the existence of present-day redirects
14:20:15 <Deewiant> Vorpal: I think it depends a bit on viewing angle :-P
14:20:21 <Vorpal> also they say 20 mm, kind of fits. Looked like slightly more than that though
14:20:32 <Vorpal> Deewiant, didn't see the underside
14:20:34 <EgoBot> Score for Gregor_suicide: 0.0
14:20:35 <Deewiant> Vorpal: But it does say that the colour varies
14:20:58 <Vorpal> anyway, how did you manage to find it?
14:21:28 <Vorpal> Deewiant, also compared to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cetonia_aurata_%28Linnaeus_1761%29.jpg mine seemed to have thinner legs
14:21:40 <Deewiant> Vorpal: After a bunch of googling I ended up with the search terms 'shiny yellow green beetle europe' and http://www.memidex.com/cetonia-aurata was the fifth result
14:22:35 <Deewiant> Vorpal: The Finnish wikipedia has more pictures: https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kultakuoriainen
14:22:57 <Deewiant> As does the Swedish: https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gr%C3%A4sgr%C3%B6n_guldbagge
14:23:25 <Deewiant> I've looked those up before, I recognize that Finnish name :-P
14:23:39 <Vorpal> the beetle I found didn't seem inclined to fly away btw.
14:24:22 <Vorpal> the .fi one didn't have that many pictures
14:24:27 <Vorpal> the Swedish one does though
14:24:29 <Deewiant> Yeah I don't think I've seen them fly much
14:24:46 <Vorpal> but the V shape thingy mentioned is indeed there
14:24:49 <Deewiant> Well it had at least the one main picture with two of them
14:24:54 <Vorpal> guess I'll add some metadata to the image locally
14:25:36 <Sgeo> As I went futher back in the archive, I found more games
14:25:46 <Sgeo> I guess game publishers started pulling out from Dexterity?
14:26:42 <Vorpal> Sgeo, what are you talking about?
14:26:57 <Sgeo> Vorpal, dexterity.com
14:27:03 <Sgeo> Used to have a bunch of shareware games
14:27:56 <Vorpal> lets see how good dropbox is at syncing if I just add metadata to the images
14:28:12 <Vorpal> looks like it is uploading a lot, takes some time. But not as much time as the original upload
14:28:20 <Vorpal> so a somewhat smart algorithm I guess
14:28:51 <Vorpal> not that dropbox seems to show image metadata, oh well
14:30:04 <Vorpal> seems to handle a name change well though
14:31:35 <Vorpal> Deewiant, also wikipedia seems to indicate it likes sunny warm spots, while I found it in the shadow on the north side of the house
14:32:02 <Deewiant> I like sleeping; doesn't mean I'm always in my bed.
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15:19:24 <nortti> http://gawker.com/5532226/swat-team-raids-house-shoots-dogs-over-small-amount-of-marijuana
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16:16:39 <fizzie> nortti: They seem to have a sort of a well-established policy of shooting as many dogs as possible; there's been quite a few stories like that.
16:16:53 <fizzie> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/27/cop-shoots-dog-puppycide_n_1446841.html "A search of news articles from the past year shows more than 100 separate incidents."
16:17:04 <fizzie> I suppose in some of those there's been some amount of self-defence going on.
16:17:17 <fizzie> But e.g. the dog in the article's picture does not look incredibly threatening.
16:17:51 -!- john_metcalf has joined.
16:17:54 <fizzie> "In recent years, police officers have shot and killed chihuahuas, miniature dachshunds, Wheaton terriers, and Jack Russell terriers. Last month, a California police officer shot and killed a boxer puppy and pregnant chihuahua, claiming the boxer had threatened him. The chihuahua, he said, got caught in the crossfire."
16:38:42 <mroman> Let's just say that If a dog attacks me and I had a gun...
16:38:49 <mroman> I might be really tempted to shoot him.
16:39:11 <Taneb> If a dog attacks me and I had a gun
16:39:18 <mroman> And by attacking I mean "coming at me"
16:39:21 <Taneb> I'd be panicking so much about me having a gun
16:39:27 <Taneb> I'd forget about the dog
16:39:28 <mroman> because if he is just in front of me, it's too late to react.
16:39:45 <mroman> So obviously you either should him while he's charging at you or you don't.
16:40:03 <Taneb> What if the dog just wants to lick you in the face
16:40:10 <mroman> Taneb: There is no way of knowing that.
16:40:15 <mroman> He might as well bite you in the face.
16:40:53 <mroman> which is exactly the point.
16:41:00 <mroman> You have to stop a dog before he reaches you.
16:41:30 <mroman> Common sense when dealing with animals.
16:42:03 <mroman> Small dogs ARE NOT less dangerous then big dangerous looking dogs.
16:42:28 <itidus21> well the kids shouldn't have let their marijuana use escalate to police involvement
16:42:47 -!- Guest34050 has changed nick to oklopol.
16:42:48 <itidus21> maybe i should read the article before commenting
16:42:52 <mroman> Even if a small dog bites you the wound is still very serious.
16:43:01 <mroman> except it is a very very small dog.
16:43:15 <mroman> but still, infection is not unlikely.
16:43:58 <Phantom__Hoover> Well there is, the article even mentions that the American Humane Society offers courses on it.
16:44:32 <mroman> If I have to take courses on how to "mind read" dogs in order to be safe on the streets
16:44:48 <mroman> that's just plain weird.
16:44:54 <Phantom__Hoover> It is *not* acceptable for police to kill domestic animals engaging in perfectly normal domestic animal behaviour just because it could possibly be dangerous.
16:45:22 <Phantom__Hoover> Oh sorry, I didn't realise you live somewhere full of aggressive feral dogs.
16:45:23 <mroman> If a police officers tells you to stop
16:45:26 <mroman> and you just keep walking to him
16:45:28 <kmc> hey if you didn't want your dog to get shot, you shouldn't have become possibly falsely suspected of owning a small amount of a fairly harmless plant
16:45:52 <mroman> Unless you are armed with a knife.
16:45:53 <Phantom__Hoover> There are plenty of reasons someone could do that without being a threat.
16:46:28 <itidus21> Phantom__Hoover: depends who is the judge of acceptability
16:46:47 <mroman> Phantom__Hoover: Only if he can't hear or understand you.
16:46:57 <mroman> He shouldn't shoot him just for that.
16:47:26 <mroman> That's why police officers are always in a dangerous position.
16:47:47 <itidus21> next they'll say that if you elect the right mayors, governors and presidents and prime ministers/premiers, that the laws would somehow be magically fixed
16:48:06 <mroman> But consider that a very dangerous looking dog with fletching teeth is charging at you
16:48:14 <itidus21> and that the people are somehow responsible.. maybe they are... but in order to be responsible for the police you really need to have the power to stop them
16:48:16 <mroman> He still just might want to lick your face ;)
16:48:57 <Phantom__Hoover> If it's me? Then yes, I would try to defend myself, especially as we're assuming I'm in a public place.
16:49:38 <mroman> No swap the dangerous looking dog with a regular dog.
16:49:48 <mroman> You probably wouldn't consider him a threat.
16:49:57 <itidus21> you're certainly not allowed to kill the police in self-defence
16:50:16 <mroman> because to me he's still a threat.
16:50:28 <mroman> Also I have a dog phobia.
16:50:31 <itidus21> it's probably not a good place to be
16:50:33 <mroman> So every dog is a threat to me
16:51:17 <mroman> Also.. I wan't to be able to walk on the streets with my hungry lion.
16:51:19 <Phantom__Hoover> mroman, and as I keep telling you, this is not comparable to the situation with police.
16:51:27 <mroman> Because she's such a nice cat.
16:51:48 <itidus21> Phantom__Hoover: well i'm not brave.. i endure days in life where i have let the bad people win...
16:52:13 <itidus21> considering a turtle lives longer than 120 years
16:52:14 <mroman> They are not ridiculous.
16:52:19 <mroman> They just don't involve flexible moral.
16:52:35 <Phantom__Hoover> As kmc pointed out, there is no reasonable course of action for a dog owner to take to avoid their dog getting killed.
16:53:32 <itidus21> i think kmc was being sarcastic
16:53:39 <mroman> But that counts for every animal.
16:54:09 <itidus21> the bad kind of sarcasm where truth is sarcasm
16:54:24 <Phantom__Hoover> Your point seems to simply be that *you* have an irrational fear of dogs and thus it's completely justified to kill them on the spot if they look at you funny.
16:55:00 <mroman> My point is you shouldn't treat dogs different than other animals.
16:55:34 <Phantom__Hoover> I don't know about you but I don't automatically assume all animals want to gore me.
16:55:43 <fizzie> So... you shouldn't shoot them as a matter of protocol? I mean, I don't think they have a habit of shooting anything else.
16:56:16 <AnotherTest> Phantom__Hoover: don't dogs want to protected their owner. If you happen to be trying to arrest the owner, they would attack you?
16:56:47 <Phantom__Hoover> AnotherTest, in several of those cases the owner wasn't even present at the time.
16:57:17 <mroman> I'm just not a big fan of "subjective views" when it comes to laws.
16:57:46 <mroman> Either they count or they don't.
16:58:10 <kmc> also the police can break the law whenever they want
16:58:14 <kmc> they are rarely punished for it
16:58:28 <mroman> "You may shoot dangerous dogs when they attack you"
16:58:33 <mroman> "You may not shoot harmless dogs"
16:58:38 <kmc> cops have a code of honor which says they will lie to protect fellow cops
16:58:38 <AnotherTest> kmc: I don't agree. Well, maybe they can, but they shouldn't be able to(trias politicas?)
16:58:48 <mroman> That would leave the question WHEN a dog is dangerous.
16:58:51 <kmc> and they understand the criminal justice system obviously
16:58:54 <kmc> and have connections
16:59:01 <kmc> basically like any other organized crime
16:59:04 <kmc> but with massive state funding
16:59:13 <mroman> That's just too subjective @dangerous or not.
16:59:22 <Phantom__Hoover> Meanwhile as it stands you just want it to be legal to... well, kill any dog if it looks at you funny?
16:59:24 <itidus21> kmc: well they lie over the most trivial things. i learned this once
16:59:33 <mroman> I take no joy in killing animalas.
17:00:09 <itidus21> some cops told my neighbours i confessed to stealing underwear off their clothesline..
17:00:14 <AnotherTest> mroman: dogs /are/ not dangerous/not-dangerous, they can all become dangerous
17:00:33 <Phantom__Hoover> But the way you've said it it's legal to kill a dog so long as you thought it was a threat with no effort at all to define what a reasonable definition of threat is.
17:00:39 <itidus21> and, well i didn't steal them, and i didn't confess
17:00:54 <mroman> Phantom__Hoover: If he does not charge at you he's not dangerous at that point.
17:01:01 <mroman> If he charges at you he's dangerous.
17:01:03 <Gregor> mroman: Dogs are not delicious/non-delicious, they can all become delicious.
17:01:44 <AnotherTest> You can't kill a cow you do not own. Maybe you shouldn't be allowed to kill a dog you do not own?
17:02:03 <Gregor> You can kill a cow you don't own if the cow is attacking you.
17:02:07 <Taneb> AnotherTest, what happens if a cow charges at you?
17:02:10 <Gregor> You can kill a person you don't own if they're attacking you.
17:02:11 <Taneb> (cows are really scary)
17:02:15 <Phantom__Hoover> Because for one thing police /do/ need to be able to defend themselves against guard dogs.
17:02:29 <mroman> Well, you can't really kill another person even if he does attack you.
17:02:33 <Phantom__Hoover> The problem is when they can get away with killing any dog that moves towards them.
17:02:45 <mroman> If he just hits you in the face you can't.
17:02:51 <Phantom__Hoover> I don't know of any legal system which outlaws self-defence.
17:03:01 <mroman> Phantom__Hoover: self-defence is restricted to
17:03:21 <mroman> Killing an opponent just because he hit you in the face is not reasonable.
17:03:22 <AnotherTest> Gregor(" You can kill a person you don't own if they're attacking you."): that depends of the time we are in
17:03:35 <mroman> at least in my country it is restricted.
17:03:52 <mroman> You probably are not even allowed to break his arm or something like that.
17:04:28 <AnotherTest> In some countries you can kill a woman if you sleep with another woman.(well that was in the newspaper...)
17:04:42 <Phantom__Hoover> At least, if it constituted a defence from further assault.
17:04:54 <fizzie> mroman: "Reasonable" is again pretty vague. I mean, I think in the states people can and do shoot regular burglars. There was this one guy who had his car stolen, and then when the thief was driving away, shot and killed him. If I'm not mistaken, that was considered reasonable.
17:04:59 <Phantom__Hoover> Where the line is actually drawn is determined, at least here, by a jury.
17:05:01 <mroman> If he hit you in the face
17:05:02 <fizzie> The states being the united ones.
17:05:06 <mroman> you are NOT ALLOWED to do anything.
17:05:32 <Phantom__Hoover> So it's basically impossible to actually say what they are ahead of time.
17:05:33 <mroman> Because then you would be hitting him.
17:06:08 <mroman> self-defence only counts while he's attacking.
17:06:16 <AnotherTest> mroman: if somoen had a gun, and he was about to shoot you. Would you be allowed to kill or not?(if you coul)
17:06:17 <mroman> If he hit you in the face once
17:06:28 <mroman> and then just stands there
17:06:33 <mroman> you can't just go and hit him too.
17:07:07 <Phantom__Hoover> mroman, except like I said it's up to the jury to decide whether it was reasonable to assume they would continue to attack.
17:07:14 <mroman> You are allowed to defend yourself before an attack, or while he's still attacking.
17:07:17 <mroman> but not after he attacked.
17:07:27 <mroman> because that's not defending anymore of course.
17:07:32 <Phantom__Hoover> So yes, if they punched you in the face then ran away it would probably be illegal to run them down and break their arm.
17:07:33 <fizzie> "A Castle Doctrine (also known as a Castle Law or a Defense of Habitation Law) is an American legal doctrine that designates a person's abode (or, in some states, any place legally occupied, such as a car or place of work) as a place in which the person has certain protections and immunities and may in certain circumstances use force, up to and including deadly force, to defend against an ...
17:07:40 <fizzie> ... intruder without becoming liable to prosecution." I mean, they have that thing.
17:08:28 <Gregor> mroman: What broken country do you live in where self defense is illegal X_X
17:08:49 <AnotherTest> "mroman: You are allowed to defend yourself before an attack, or while he's still attacking." Seems like it's legal.
17:08:55 <Gregor> WHERE THEY FORCE YOU ALL TO BE ARMED
17:08:56 <fizzie> Anyway, self-defense is rather tightly controlled in Finland too.
17:09:02 <Phantom__Hoover> (I did that earlier to see if he did live in a common-law country.)
17:09:05 <Gregor> I believe that your interpretation of the law is probably broken.
17:09:10 <Taneb> I'm gonna do an elliott and part until conversation improves
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17:09:12 <AnotherTest> in Belgium, you can get around any law really
17:09:24 <fizzie> Gregor: They're armed to repel foreign intruders, you know.
17:09:32 <Gregor> fizzie: That's besides the point ;)
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17:10:04 <mroman> That's not very uncommon @you have to go to the army
17:10:14 <mroman> in european countries.
17:10:25 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, but that's, like, self-defence against foreigners.
17:10:37 <mroman> You have to be a soldat, and you have to be a fire-fighter in switzerland.
17:11:17 <mroman> depends on how he robbed you.
17:13:10 <mroman> "olice officers have also recently shot dogs that were chained, tied, or leashed -- obviously posing no real threat to officers who killed them. "
17:13:36 <kmc> hey there needs to be a grossly disproportionate punishment for being suspected of owning a small amount of a plant
17:13:38 <mroman> You'd have to recognize first that he's on a leash.
17:13:46 <mroman> but police officers should be trained to do so.
17:14:03 <mroman> also you have to make assumptions about the length of the leash.
17:14:09 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, calling it 'a plant' as if that's so ultra-reasonable is disingenuous.
17:14:12 <mroman> Even if he's on a leash he still might reach you.
17:14:23 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: everyone knows what i'm talking about
17:14:33 <fizzie> There were also some stories like this one guy to whom the police said that "we won't harm your dog if you put him in the bathroom and close the door", then (after he had done so) went and opened the door, shot the dog, for no other apparent reason than to get some water to drink.
17:14:36 <mroman> As you see. It is not that easy for a police officer.
17:14:42 <fizzie> Is that also understandable?
17:14:48 <fizzie> I mean, they could've been in danger of thirst.
17:14:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Of course; I'm saying that you're making out that it's completely ridiculous to regulate posession of a plant.
17:15:00 <kmc> not really
17:15:14 <fizzie> Anyway, regarding shooting someone who just tries to rob you, here's some Florida statutes: "a person is justified in the use of deadly force -- if: He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm -- A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm -- if: (a) The person against whom the ...
17:15:20 <fizzie> ... defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, -- and (b) The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred."
17:15:32 <fizzie> That really sounds quite much like you can shoot people who aren't directly in the process of attacking you personally.
17:15:47 <Phantom_Hoover> FWIW killing burglars is definitely not legal in the UK.
17:16:00 <fizzie> It's very much not legal here too.
17:16:19 <fizzie> As for US, I am under the impression that how legal it is varies quite much depending on the state in question.
17:16:42 <mroman> I don't think it's allowed in switzerland @killing burglars.
17:16:46 <AnotherTest> It would be legal here if you caused an error in the investigation(causing you not to get any punishment)
17:17:07 <AnotherTest> (you'd need just 1 person on the inside to do that)
17:17:08 <mroman> It's even technically your fault if a burglar falls down your staircaise.
17:17:19 <Phantom_Hoover> AnotherTest, well come on, any legal system can be subverted from the inside.
17:17:44 <Phantom_Hoover> That's just "it would be legal here if you had a corrupt policeman on your side", which is true basically everywhere.
17:17:47 <oklopol> in finnish law, is it less wrong to kill a burglar than a random guy? (assuming that you say you did not consider yourself to be in danger.)
17:17:58 <AnotherTest> Phantom_Hoover: true, but here you could just leak a single sentence of the documents and it would be fine
17:18:03 <mroman> I'm all for "not killing the dogs" if you pay the money to train police officers for such situations.
17:18:22 <Phantom_Hoover> mroman, it says /in the article/ that they've been offered free training multiple times.
17:18:32 <mroman> For every police officer?
17:18:36 <Phantom_Hoover> And it's the police's own damn fault to ensure the safety of the public from the police.
17:18:44 <AnotherTest> Then it seems like they were just having some sadistic fun.
17:18:50 <fizzie> oklopol: I don't think there's a difference. The bit about "hätävarjelu" just says: "Aloitetun tai välittömästi uhkaavan oikeudettoman hyökkäyksen torjumiseksi tarpeellinen puolustusteko on hätävarjeluna sallittu, jollei teko ilmeisesti ylitä sitä, mitä on pidettävä kokonaisuutena arvioiden puolustettavana, kun otetaan huomioon hyökkäyksen laatu ja voimakkuus, puolustautujan ja ...
17:18:56 <fizzie> ... hyökkääjän henkilö sekä muut olosuhteet." I haven't seen anything that would let you use more force when you're defending your home or some-such.
17:20:10 <fizzie> oklopol: Oh, well, there's also 5§ pakkotila: "Muun kuin edellä 4 §:ssä tarkoitetun, oikeudellisesti suojattua etua uhkaavan välittömän ja pakottavan vaaran torjumiseksi tarpeellinen teko on pakkotilatekona sallittu, jos teko on kokonaisuutena arvioiden puolustettava, kun otetaan huomioon pelastettavan edun ja teolla aiheutetun vahingon ja haitan laatu ja suuruus, vaaran alkuperä sekä ...
17:20:16 <fizzie> ... muut olosuhteet." So I guess you could argue something related to that if you were repelling a burglar, but not if you were just killing some random dude who hadn't done anything.
17:20:31 <fizzie> Except I doubt they'd ever considered deadly force "reasonable".
17:23:42 <fizzie> Also even if you do something unreasonable, you can't get punished if it's not possible to reasonably expect you to have behaved otherwise in the situation, considering element of surprise etc. (I think that bit is there to give some leniency where you can't really make a full analysis of legality before acting.)
17:25:15 <fizzie> Also if e.g. the attacker has a fake gun and you hurt him trying to defend yourself, even though you weren't actually in any danger.
17:25:51 <fizzie> Apparently supplementary materials clarify it so that you have more wiggle room when defending your person than your property.
17:26:09 <fizzie> So here you shouldn't probably shoot after a car thief.
17:28:06 <fizzie> Actually that case was mostly interesting because the original car owner killed the thief, then afterwards the car hit someone else, and the someone else's insurance company argued the "acts of uninsured motorists" insurance won't cover it, because the car wasn't operated by an uninsured motorist (the thief), because he was dead at the time, and therefore could not be operating a vehicle.
17:28:15 <fizzie> I don't recall how it actually went in the end.
17:28:33 <fizzie> I don't think anyone was blaming the car owner of anything, though.
17:30:04 <Phantom_Hoover> What if he had died at the wheel and then it had hit someone>?
17:30:23 <fizzie> I don't really know. I think it should be an analoguous case.
17:30:38 <fizzie> "The fact that the jury came back with a verdict of $450,000 probably tells us something about what it thought of the insurer's position."
17:31:17 <fizzie> No, this was a US blog.
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17:33:10 <Taneb> My dog got attacked by a different dog a while back
17:33:20 <Taneb> That dog later killed a third dog
17:33:33 <fizzie> On the other hand, apparently in New Zealand you shouldn't throw a spear into the head of someone who stole your wallet: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10502759
17:42:58 <fizzie> oklopol: I found you four cases that illustrate self-defense, you can refer to these next time when you think whether you should kill a dude or not: http://sprunge.us/XIVh
17:45:39 <fizzie> (For non-Finns, in the last case someone guarding a a gas station had shot a burglar to the leg, causing permanent injury, and was fined 10000 FIM (about 1700 EUR, 2100 USD) because a gun was considered a too dangerous means for primary defense purposes for a private individual.
17:47:55 <fizzie> (But in #3 someone had shot dead a dude that had broken in his house and threatened everyone there with a shotgun; apparently due to "fast escalation of the situation" it wasn't reasonable to expect him to be able to aim away from vital spots, so he wasn't convicted.)
17:49:04 <fizzie> (So you can in fact kill people here and get away with it, it just requires a very legitimate-looking threat and you probably should mostly be focusing on saving yourself and not especially much on killing the other guy.)
17:49:15 <mroman> It's probably not that easy to know where you can "safely" shoot someone.
17:49:25 <mroman> I'd probably go for the calves?
17:49:47 <Taneb> No such thing as safely shooting someone
17:50:01 <mroman> In this context safely means
17:50:06 <mroman> "No permanent injury, not dead"
17:50:18 <mroman> and "not bleeding to death within reasonable time"
17:50:42 <Taneb> How much of an area of error are we allowing?
17:51:04 <mroman> "Regular guy aim"-tolerance?
17:51:25 <mroman> but I have absolutely no idea
17:52:03 <Taneb> I've shot an unloaded air pistol.
17:52:16 <mroman> But I assume someone who can is able to hit a circle with 5cm radius?
17:52:53 <Taneb> But I only heard that was the safest in the context of stabbing
17:53:02 <fizzie> mroman: I would really assume that depends on the distance.
17:53:26 <mroman> In case of a robbery 10m is probably the maximum distance.
17:53:33 <fizzie> I've shot one of those air "rifle" things too. It had a bit of an issue that when you made it go from the loading mode "L" shape into the firing mode "|" shape, it had about 80% chance of automatically firing. In retrospect, it perhaps wasn't the safest device around?
17:54:17 <mroman> 10m means he's standing in the living room and you're in the next room but can shoot him through the open door 10m
17:54:35 <mroman> and he's just thinking of shooting your dog.
17:55:04 <Phantom_Hoover> You can never guarantee you won't sever a nerve, for one thing.
17:55:10 <mroman> Aparently shooting someone in the leg creates a pressure in the veins
17:55:27 <mroman> which kill you even if its just a grazing shot.
17:55:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Shooting someone in the leg carries a high risk of opening an artery.
17:56:43 <fizzie> In #3, the chosen place -- well, according to the text he didn't have a chance to aim at all -- was the chest. Even given that no place is safe, that was maybe not the optimal place.
17:57:20 <Phantom_Hoover> It's complicated by the fact that he was threatening people with a shotgun.
17:57:25 <mroman> But I've seen that in movies! @chest
17:58:15 <tswett> fizzie: I tried OOo Base. It wasn't very good.
17:58:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Shooting someone in the chest is extremely dangerous but it's also far from a quick or even definite kill.
17:58:40 -!- Gregor has set topic: #esoteric: Where we decide just how much you can shoot someone. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | This is what the bfjoust hill will look like under the new scoring system: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=XEWnVMg8.
17:59:08 <fizzie> tswett: *pretending to look surprised here*
17:59:10 <tswett> augur_: I think Proce has a really weird paradigm. One of these days, I need to rewrite the spec so that it actually makes sense.
17:59:26 <fizzie> What's your underlying database, anyway? My?
17:59:46 <Phantom_Hoover> So we're all in agreement that you should at least not shoot people a lot?
18:01:43 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, it's this sort of thing why I suggested we form a superhero team in Glasgow
18:01:50 <Taneb> That, and we can both get there by train
18:03:10 <tswett> fizzie: my underlying database is whatever I feel like installing.
18:03:14 <tswett> I don't feel like installing anything.
18:03:37 <tswett> But Sqlite is already installed.
18:03:46 <fizzie> Oh, okay. I had somehow assumed administration of an existing database.
18:04:08 <fizzie> I think there's a Firefox extension for that.
18:04:42 <fizzie> So it's kind-of half-self-contained.
18:06:06 -!- nortti has quit (Quit: leaving).
18:06:21 <tswett> What I have is a personal database, containing tables that are just to-do lists or such things.
18:06:40 -!- nortti has joined.
18:07:03 <tswett> Since I am not a computer program, I don't particularly feel like writing a SQL query every time I want to do something.
18:07:54 <mroman> So you're implying that the matrix does not exist, eh?
18:08:36 <tswett> Let me rephrase that. I am not a computer program whose source code I can feasibly rewrite.
18:08:48 <tswett> Or, if I can, I don't know how.
18:11:32 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, no, so we can stop other people shooting yet other people
18:11:52 <fizzie> I had a database like that once, and I made it out of sqlite and a quick-and-dirty UI using some scripting language and a curses-like package. But that's of course a hassle.
18:12:27 <fizzie> Okay, it wasn't exactly like that, and had some things for which a program was handy.
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18:19:35 <Gregor> And all of our crime is gun crime in the states.
18:22:55 <Phantom_Hoover> We do have shitloads of knife crime and, increasingly, sword crime, so there's that.
18:23:04 <oklopol> we don't have any crime in finland
18:24:41 <Gregor> There's no crime in Murdertopia!
18:24:47 <Gregor> Because everything's legal in Murdertopia!
18:25:13 <oklopol> i don't count victimless crimes and finns are not people
18:31:48 <fizzie> The traditional Finnish crime is axe crime.
18:33:48 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, sword crime? really?
18:34:42 <fizzie> "Työttömyys, viina, kirves ja perhe / lumihanki, poliisi ja viimeinen erhe", they sing in a well-known song. (Butchering the lyrics, that's something like "unemployment, booze, an axe and the family / a snowbank, the police and the final mistake".)
18:37:00 <fizzie> (The song also has parts that are not just listing related words.)
18:38:25 <oklopol> would you cry out of happiness?
18:38:57 <fizzie> That's not a work-safe song.
18:39:19 <Vorpal> oklopol, why do you ask?
18:39:26 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's a translated song title too.
18:39:36 <fizzie> Does it mention an axe later? I only know the first bit.
18:39:38 <oklopol> i didn't know those lyrics, because i've always stopped listening after would you cry out of happiness if i fucked you real nice.
18:40:02 <fizzie> oklopol: Yeah, it apparently goes to rather different themes afterwards, fancy that.
18:40:03 <oklopol> (the first few seconds, iirc the song has no repetition)
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18:40:37 <oklopol> (i guess i accidentally admitted i have heard the whole song)
18:40:38 <fizzie> oklopol: Actually in a rather non-Finnish turn of events, it seems to be about gun crime instead.
18:41:21 <fizzie> Also they repeat the bit about how unfairly luck is shared among people.
18:41:48 <fizzie> But not the part about fucking.
18:41:50 <oklopol> okay that does sound chorusy.
18:42:20 <oklopol> well i got the album when i was something like 10 so that was the only part i cared about.
18:44:34 <Sgeo> Should I work on SICP a little despite being sleep deprived?
18:45:29 <oklopol> i didn't quite get this song.
18:45:31 <fizzie> Also, a lyrics site has done the ä/ae translation, resulting in the song "Ei Saeaestae Perheen Koiraakaan". (That song, incidentally, also includes an axe. Or at least refers to one.)
18:45:53 <fizzie> 'saeaestae' makes quite a word.
18:46:37 <oklopol> yeah when i said would you cry out of happiness, i tried to ask if the line was from that.
18:46:52 <oklopol> because a google search had those in the same entry
18:47:25 <fizzie> It's from The Land of Mournful Songs.
18:48:27 <fizzie> In the second stanza, the protagonist is all set to never even get an axe; in the fifth, well...
18:48:31 <fizzie> (The quote was from that.)
18:48:32 <oklopol> i just have a random collection of their songs
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18:49:49 <fizzie> I only know the songs that they play on the radio. Or played, I guess.
18:51:50 <oklopol> we used to play some of the songs with a couple of friends (a bit over 10 years ago)
18:52:01 <fizzie> Also I think there was a parody version of that "voi kuinka me sinua kaivataan" song.
18:54:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah; IIRC they were becoming more and more popular amongst organised criminals.
18:54:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Mainly because nobody bothered to regulate them at first, although that changed fairly quickly.
18:55:42 <fizzie> I think I actually saw something about that somewhere.
18:56:00 <fizzie> In the context of setting up some sword regulation laws.
18:56:57 <Phantom_Hoover> I think it was just extending the existing knife laws to swords, admittedly.
19:00:57 <oklopol> was it legal to kill with a sword?
19:01:14 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
19:02:32 <Sgeo> Dexterity Software > Personal Development for Smart People
19:02:35 <Phantom_Hoover> There is that thing with the crossbow and the hill in Wales (or is it York)?
19:03:00 <Phantom_Hoover> That's very helpful Sgeo now you might want to say that to some people who know what either of those things are.
19:03:41 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, a blog post on Personal Development for Smart People: http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2009/02/1111/
19:03:48 <oklopol> i'm not even sure i know what Smart People means
19:04:09 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, I'd link you to Dexterity Software, but Steve took it down to focus on... the blog I just linked
19:04:11 <itidus21> my guess is dexterity software is a product for smart people made by an eponymous copany
19:04:54 <itidus21> yeah... ieponymous i spell correctly
19:04:57 <itidus21> eddiewdjiewdjiewjioewjdiewjiowe
19:07:53 -!- edwardk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:08:35 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, web archive of Dexterity Software http://web.archive.org/web/20031218062802/http://www.dexterity.com/
19:08:56 <oklopol> yeah Phantom_Hoover here's the info you were requesting.
19:09:14 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:09:31 <Sgeo> ......I was able to actually download one of the game demos o.O
19:09:59 <Vorpal> what is the name of that firefox add-on that allows you to modify how pages display, overriding parts of them. SomethingMonkey iirc?
19:10:17 <oklopol> GreaseMonkey, after the esolanger
19:10:40 <Vorpal> haven't seen him in a while
19:10:53 <oerjan> <mroman> Why is there no information included AT which cell a constant stops? <-- i think until recently there were no examples without balanced loops so it was easy to deduce.
19:10:58 <Vorpal> now is there a GreaseMonkey for chrome I wonder..
19:11:50 <oerjan> nope, esolangers are incompatible with chrome. see: Gregor
19:12:00 <Vorpal> what does Gregor have against chrome?
19:13:01 * oerjan notes strong winds in the sky today
19:13:13 <fizzie> There's some sort of a semi-compatible thing, I believe.
19:13:13 <Deewiant> Vorpal: http://www.greasemonkeyforchrome.com/
19:13:17 <Vorpal> I switched off my humor engine for today
19:14:25 <Vorpal> support built in or what? Huh
19:15:09 <oklopol> Vorpal: chrome refers to colors, and Gregor is allergic to certain colors
19:15:20 <Vorpal> Deewiant, well all I want to do is actually override some CSS.
19:15:36 <oklopol> (only some really obscure ones, and it's just a slight eye rash, but still)
19:16:05 <oerjan> <Vorpal> http://www.dropbox.com/gallery/87474461/1/Beetle?h=516644 <-- i am reminded of the book Tordyveln flyger i skymningen
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19:16:31 <oerjan> (that's the original swedish title, of course i read it in norwegian)
19:16:36 <Vorpal> oerjan, that title sounds slightly familiar. No clue what it is about though
19:17:32 <oerjan> afair it's a children's mystery with mystical elements. the namesake tordivel is an omen...
19:18:04 <oerjan> and i think there were egyptian mummies involved, or something like that
19:19:00 <Vorpal> I don't think I ever read that
19:19:10 * oerjan thinks of one more thing but that would be a major spoiler.
19:19:22 <Vorpal> oerjan, anyway the thing was not a tordyvel
19:19:43 <oerjan> no, but the tordyvel in the book was a stand-in for an egyptian scarab
19:20:53 <oerjan> not that your picture looks like the one on wikipedia for that, but anyway the exact species is flexible for this :P
19:21:53 <Gregor> Since when am I anti-Chrome.
19:22:03 -!- Taneb has joined.
19:22:03 <Gregor> I use Firefox, but I hate every browser.
19:22:08 <oerjan> wtf check the first picture of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scarabaeidae#Gallery :P
19:22:22 <oklopol> winds are indeed strong today
19:24:25 <oerjan> (and by that i mean, compare to Vorpal's pictures at https://www.dropbox.com/gallery/87474461/1/Beetle?h=516644)
19:24:48 <oerjan> it may of course just be similar.
19:24:50 <itidus21> i once found a scarab beetle in the garden
19:25:27 <itidus21> it was dead, but i won't go on
19:25:50 <oklopol> those are not only the same type of beetle, they are actually the _same beetle_
19:26:17 <oerjan> i'd have liked a picture that was from the same angle...
19:27:16 <oklopol> and you can't mistake those eyes
19:27:29 <itidus21> oklopol: kind of like if turtles took photos of humans and 2 different turtles uploded it to different websites and my eyes are so tired i am typing with my eyes shut
19:28:18 <Gregor> All the channels I've on have gone crazy today.
19:28:49 <itidus21> which wouldn't be much of an achievement except my touch typing style is all a,s,space k,o,shift
19:29:12 <oerjan> http://www.google.no/search?hl=no&safe=off&biw=1071&bih=594&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=chiloloba+acuta&oq=chiloloba+acuta&gs_l=img.3...14015.21281.0.21703.17.7.1.9.9.0.297.1000.0j1j3.4.0...0.0.I15OjvwskpQ has some such pictures, they don't look convincingly _that_ similar.
19:30:28 <oerjan> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Green_Scarab_Beetle_(Chiloloba_acuta)_W_IMG_3433.jpg in particular
19:32:40 <oerjan> Vorpal: hey wait your pictures are named "Cetonia Aurata"
19:33:33 <oerjan> oh, that's also a scarabaeid
19:37:57 <oerjan> oh right you discussed it in channel
19:38:23 <oerjan> Vorpal: i think the chiloloba is a better fit to your pictures than the cetonia, even if it's still not perfect
19:40:36 <oerjan> Vorpal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cetonia_aurata#In_popular_culture XD
19:43:35 <Taneb> I've just updated family-tree
19:43:36 * oerjan is going to guess the swedish book was _inspired_ by that Jung story
19:48:17 <oerjan> here are a bunch of related candidates http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cetoniinae50.jpg
19:49:06 <mroman> 21:48 < mroman> I'm tempted to create Beamjoust :)
19:49:28 <mroman> I should read in which channel I am than just assume in which channel I left the computer :D
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19:57:25 <nortti> "As far as I've learned from my time on the Internet, First Amendment rights are violated whenever any of the following happen:"
19:57:28 <nortti> "1. A person is told to shut up by a moderator or administrator."
19:57:31 <nortti> "2. A person is told to shut up by an ordinary community member."
19:57:33 <nortti> "3. A person is told their ideas are stupid."
19:57:48 <mroman> What is the first amendment?
19:58:28 <Taneb> Basically says Congress can't outlaw religion or speech
19:58:31 <oklopol> it says you are allowed to speak
19:58:36 <oklopol> second is that you are allowed to walk
19:58:37 <mroman> As far as I'm concerned there is no such thing as free speech
19:58:51 <mroman> I don't know any country that allows free spech.
19:58:55 <Taneb> Yeah, but you live in an isolationist, far right country
19:59:28 <Taneb> Switzerland, I believe
19:59:33 <mroman> I'm pretty sury there is no free speech in the US.
19:59:55 <Taneb> They have to at least pretend there is
19:59:57 <mroman> If you can't say whatever the heck you wan't it's not *really* _free_ speech.
20:00:16 <mroman> It's free speech, but you can not say that, this nor that thing.
20:00:41 <oklopol> mroman: like if you walk to a shop and say you have a gun and are going to start killing if they don't give you everything
20:01:03 <Vorpal> <oerjan> wtf check the first picture of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scarabaeidae#Gallery :P <-- it has more hair around the edges?
20:01:12 <mroman> You are not allowed to deny the holocaust.
20:01:20 <mroman> It's forbidden to say that.
20:01:25 <mroman> There are racism laws.
20:01:35 <mroman> Which means that it is forbidden to say certain things.
20:01:37 <Taneb> It's not forbidden to deny the holocaust
20:01:47 <mroman> Taneb: It is in my country.
20:01:47 <Taneb> The holocaust never happened
20:01:55 <Vorpal> <oerjan> Vorpal: hey wait your pictures are named "Cetonia Aurata" <-- Deewiant figured out what they were, so I renamed the files
20:02:01 <Taneb> mroman, you live in a far-right isolationist country
20:02:06 <Vorpal> (the confusion of log reading! yay)
20:02:16 <mroman> But you still have racism laws in the US?
20:02:23 <Taneb> I dunno, I'm in the UK
20:02:33 <Vorpal> <oerjan> Vorpal: i think the chiloloba is a better fit to your pictures than the cetonia, even if it's still not perfect <-- hm? Which one is that?
20:02:57 <mroman> You can't publicly say that "$Those-People are $Bad-Thing"
20:03:14 <oklopol> i suppose there's racism laws in finland as well, but they are about as meaningful as piracy laws unless you're famous. unless it's a direct insult ofc.
20:03:15 <oerjan> Vorpal: the one in the gallery. actually i'm not sure any more.
20:03:24 <mroman> Which completely busts free speech.
20:03:32 <Vorpal> oerjan, that one seems to exist in India, not Sweden
20:03:38 -!- olsner has joined.
20:03:38 <mroman> Free speech means to me, that you can state your opinion, no matter what opinion you have.
20:03:47 <mroman> Nobody has to agree with your opinion, but you are allowed to say it.
20:03:59 <mroman> and thats just not allowed in most (european) countries.
20:04:02 <Taneb> Free speech does not mean you must be allowed to act on your opinion
20:04:20 <Vorpal> oerjan, anyway mine had the faint white streaks that the Swedish wikipedia on the type we went for mentioned
20:04:35 <mroman> but "speech" somehow implies to me, that you can say your opinion publicly
20:04:56 <Taneb> I think you are allowed to say "I don't like those people"
20:05:08 <Taneb> But you're not allowed to say "Kill those people whenever you see them"
20:05:16 <Taneb> Unless you're a government
20:05:38 <mroman> lambdabot just noted to kill those people.
20:05:39 -!- Taneb has changed nick to those.
20:05:41 <lambdabot> those: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
20:05:52 -!- those has changed nick to Taneb.
20:05:55 <Vorpal> mroman, it does fuzzy matching on command
20:06:04 <Vorpal> so it went kill -> tell I guess
20:06:10 <Vorpal> the hamming distance is just 2 after all!
20:06:12 <nortti> so is @kill really @tell
20:06:38 <mroman> Taneb: And what does that mean for free speech if I can't say "Kill those people"
20:06:44 <mroman> not that somebody ever should say something like that
20:06:55 <Taneb> mroman, because it's provocative of violence
20:06:55 <lambdabot> nortti: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
20:07:25 <nortti> @kill oerjan bwahahaha
20:07:57 <mroman> But the fact that you are not allowed to *say* that sentence somehow tells me that the idea of "free speech" is not that "free".
20:07:58 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
20:08:21 <oklopol> if "free speech" really meant that you can say absolutely anything you like in any possible situation, then free speech could naturally never be allowed.
20:08:24 <mroman> it's more or less "You can say what you want, except what we don't whant you to say"
20:08:25 <Vorpal> mroman, what sentence?
20:08:31 <Taneb> mroman, you're allowed to say it, just not where a lot of people who view you as a leader can listen?
20:08:55 <Taneb> My knowledge of the legal procedure in my own country is limited, much less in the US and Switzerland
20:09:03 <mroman> oklopol: Which is why "free speech" does not exist to me ;)
20:09:16 <itidus21> i guess what it boils down to is you can say what you like, but people can also react how they like to what you say
20:09:25 <oklopol> mroman: well okay, but then that's kind of a stupid definition
20:09:27 <mroman> free speech in it's purest form at least.
20:09:40 <itidus21> which means that the concept of free is moot in the case i describe
20:09:46 <mroman> I don't agree with the name of it.
20:10:03 <mroman> In German its "Meinungsfreiheit: Jeder hat das Recht seine Meinung frei zu äussern"
20:10:03 <oklopol> because most important things in life happen via speech
20:10:07 <oerjan> there's that famous "shouting fire in a crowded theater" example which i think some us supreme court judge came up with
20:10:12 <mroman> which means in english: Everyone has the right to state his opinion.
20:10:23 <mroman> But the fact is: He can not.
20:10:26 <Vorpal> oerjan, and what did they conclude on that?
20:10:45 <mroman> and that means the sentence "Everyone has the right to state his opinion" is bogus.
20:10:50 <mroman> Because it is not true.
20:10:53 <itidus21> mroman: ahh rights.. i don't know what a right is fundamentally. i tried asking my mum once. she didn't give me a clear answer
20:11:13 <Vorpal> itidus21, so read up on it instead?
20:11:13 <mroman> The same applies to the freedom of religion thingy
20:11:18 <mroman> whatever you call that ;)
20:11:26 <mroman> It does not exist either.
20:11:28 <itidus21> Vorpal: well this was years ago :P
20:11:39 <mroman> It has a fancy name like "free speech" but that's it.
20:11:42 <itidus21> but, honestly i don't think anyone could define precisely what a right is
20:11:49 <oerjan> "The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man falsely shouting fire in a theater and causing a panic." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shouting_fire_in_a_crowded_theater
20:12:04 <itidus21> i think a right at it's most fundamental level is beyond analysis
20:12:04 <oklopol> it's just i don't think it's the stating the opinion that's outlawed, you can tell it to your friends and if a cop finds out he won't care.
20:12:34 <oklopol> saying you hate niggers is just, i suppose, a weak version of telling someone to kill someone
20:13:07 <Taneb> FBI: for the record, I do not hate niggers, do do I deny the holocaust happened
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20:13:32 <Vorpal> mroman, you can probably still say that you think saying "I like to kill black people" should be allowed though
20:14:09 <oerjan> <itidus21> [...] i tried asking my mum once. she didn't give me a clear answer <-- did it end with "but you still have to clean your room"?
20:14:10 <Taneb> I don't even know what's wrong with me
20:14:21 <oklopol> FBI and CIA: i hate niggers, the holocaust did not happen, and my hd is full of snuff, child pornography and secret al qaeda documents.
20:14:28 <mroman> Vorpal: I have nothing against these laws
20:14:37 <mroman> but they should be defined in other words, so that they actually are true.
20:14:42 <itidus20> that, ideally if someone claims to hold a racist view, it would be nice if they could actually be exposed to experiences of living and working alongside the race they claim to hate
20:14:50 <mroman> else there just a sharade.
20:15:36 <itidus20> basically i think for the most part segregation itself gives rise to racist views
20:15:53 <itidus20> but, i think there are also racists who are much more deeply racist
20:15:54 <mroman> Everyone has the right to state his opinion, unless it interferes with the general public opinion of the corresponding topic.
20:16:03 <Taneb> Wow, I managed to here sharade as faade
20:16:18 <mroman> or something like that ;)
20:16:26 <Taneb> Can someone recommend a psychiatrist?
20:16:29 <oerjan> oklopol: so you're not really up to snuff?
20:16:47 <oklopol> oerjan: is there a pun i'm missing?
20:16:51 <Vorpal> itidus20, I believe it is a fear of the unknown, so yes segregation doesn't help. But then why did that segregation happen originally?
20:16:54 <oklopol> snuff is not a victimless crime
20:17:16 <Taneb> Snuff is in the stuff you stick up your nose
20:17:17 <olsner> oerjan: what's the pun?
20:17:19 <Gregor> I'm currently playing a trumpet with oboe fingering.
20:17:24 <Vorpal> Taneb, don't you need an ear doctor instead then?
20:17:24 <Taneb> Is a victimless probably non-crime
20:17:30 <oklopol> erm okay cp i guess can be a bit victimful now that i look at my list :D
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20:17:41 <Taneb> Vorpal, not if I heard it on the inside of my head
20:17:43 <oerjan> "up to snuff" is a phrase, meaning something like competent
20:17:43 <mroman> Gregor: That is super surreal o_O
20:17:55 -!- itidus20 has changed nick to itidus21.
20:18:04 <Vorpal> Taneb, hearing things on the inside of your head is in general a bad thing
20:18:08 <Vorpal> btw, where is elliott?
20:18:41 <Taneb> Vorpal, dunno, I don't exactly have any contact with him outside this channel and occasionally private messages and #haskell and #esoteric-minecraft
20:18:49 <oklopol> oerjan: okay did not know that one
20:18:52 <Vorpal> Gregor, can you record it? A video preferably
20:19:12 <oklopol> i guess the saying only makes sense if you think snuff is the greatest form of entertainment in the world.
20:19:15 <Gregor> Vorpal, mroman: I /just/ got this electronic wind instrument yesterday, gimme a break
20:19:15 <Vorpal> Taneb, isn't hexham like a small village kind of deal?
20:19:35 <Taneb> Vorpal, almost 12000 people
20:19:56 <Vorpal> Gregor, electronic wind instrument? That explains it. Also it sounds awesome
20:20:03 <Vorpal> does it have a midi port on the side?
20:20:08 <Vorpal> in fact, what does it look like?
20:20:10 <mroman> What's the electronic part of it?
20:20:12 <itidus21> Vorpal: well especially the case where it might be claimed i am racist.. i would at least like exposure to the group i hate
20:20:32 <Taneb> Vorpal, I have never met elliott, nor do I plan to
20:20:34 <itidus21> or it would seem they get some great deal of joy out of labelling my hate
20:20:41 <Vorpal> itidus21, eh? Are you a racist?
20:20:47 <Taneb> By mutual agreement
20:20:51 <fizzie> Taneb: Are you some sort of elliott-racist!
20:21:16 <Taneb> All the discussion occured in this channel
20:21:22 <Gregor> Vorpal: http://www.akaipro.com/ewiusb
20:21:27 <Gregor> Vorpal: It's a standard USB MIDI device.
20:21:37 * oerjan recalls back in the 90s or so reading that snuff in the strict sense wasn't proved to exist, and vaguely wonders if that's still true.
20:21:40 <Taneb> The main reason is that we're ridiculously similar in terms of tastes and location that meeting will destroy the universe
20:21:48 <Vorpal> Gregor, does it have a speaker built in?
20:21:51 <Taneb> Which would be a Bad Thing
20:22:30 <itidus21> Vorpal: my point is, i am aware of no benefit derived of being racist.. so i would expect the majority of racists would like the chance to remedy their racism
20:22:45 <itidus21> perhaps that is hugely wishful thinking
20:22:49 <Vorpal> itidus21, I don't think the world works that way...
20:22:50 <Taneb> fizzie, I'm descended from the elliott clan on my mother's side!
20:23:02 <Taneb> (actually sort of true)
20:23:06 <Vorpal> otherwise, why would the Bible belt in US still exist?
20:23:10 <itidus21> also if racism is a symptom of some other problem
20:23:19 <oerjan> "The existence of for-profit snuff films is generally considered an urban legend.", so still the same i guess
20:23:50 <Vorpal> Gregor, what is the ground plate for on those screenshots? Electrical ground?
20:24:01 <Vorpal> (I never played a wind instrument, I don't know the terminology)
20:24:53 <Gregor> Vorpal: No speaker, it's just a MIDI device. It has nothing to do with either electrical grounding or wind instruments. Well, maybe it does have to do with electrical grounding, it has something to do with how it does touch-detection of the pitch bend area.
20:25:29 <itidus21> i suppose the benefits for the racist are the same as those of the bully.. having someone to pick on and blame for things and exploit
20:26:04 <Vorpal> Gregor, does it work well (the instrument in general, not the ground plate in specific)
20:26:38 <Gregor> Well, I paid $250 for it, so my expectations weren't low, but I'm not disappointed.
20:26:48 <itidus21> i think my habit of sticking to a topic years after it has been dropped is awkward in such cases
20:26:56 <Vorpal> Gregor, what happens if you try to suck air in instead?
20:27:13 <Vorpal> Gregor, seriously though?
20:27:16 <Gregor> Vorpal: It has near zero airflow, so that's mostly just very unpleasant.
20:27:19 <Gregor> It doesn't hurt anything.
20:27:31 <Vorpal> Gregor, how can it work with near zero airflow?!
20:27:39 <Vorpal> that doesn't make sense to me
20:28:18 <Gregor> Vorpal: It doesn't produce sound, it just needs a pressure sensor. In principle it could have no airflow whatsoever, but it does have a little bit.
20:28:38 <Vorpal> right, it must be very different to play then from normal wind instruments
20:28:52 <Gregor> I'm told that it's most similar to an oboe, which also has very low airflow.
20:29:03 <Gregor> But yes, real woodwind players apparently complain about its low airflow.
20:29:06 <Vorpal> since instead of stopping breathing out you need to breath in to stop the tone?
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20:29:24 <Gregor> You just need to stop applying pressure.
20:29:49 <Vorpal> I guess that is why it has a tiny bit of airflow then
20:29:58 <Gregor> Yes, just enough to be possible ^^
20:30:13 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Naw, they all simulate direct-blown instrument, no transverse.
20:30:31 <Gregor> I think there are electric brass too, but those are crazy-expensive and I'm no lip buzzing expert anyway.
20:30:52 <Vorpal> <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Naw, they all simulate direct-blown instrument, no transverse. <-- not all flutes are transverse afaik?
20:31:04 <Gregor> The term "flute" usually refers to concert flutes, which are.
20:31:12 <Gregor> Other kinds of flutes are lame and everybody hates them.
20:31:54 <Vorpal> oh right English calls "blockflöjt" "recorder"
20:32:04 <Vorpal> in Swedish "flute" is part of the name of that instrument
20:32:20 <Gregor> In some English dialects, recorders are considered a type of flute.
20:32:28 <Gregor> But usually the word "flute" refers to concert flutes, which are transverse.
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20:32:59 <Vorpal> Gregor, what about pan flutes, they are transverse still
20:33:05 <Vorpal> but not the same as concert flute
20:33:22 <Vorpal> or is that not called a flute in English either
20:33:45 <Vorpal> well the article name is Pan flute, but the intro text reads "pan pipe".
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20:43:39 <Gregor> That's called a pan flute, yes X-D
20:43:50 <Gregor> Pretty much any woodwind that doesn't have a reed is a kind of flute.
20:44:01 <Gregor> Just the only one you mean when you don't specify is a concert flute.
20:44:27 <Gregor> If someone said "I play a flute" and then pulled out their recorder or pan flute, you'd call them a dirty liar and punch them in the face.
20:46:18 <olsner> I would say "Indeed you do", because all flutes are flutes
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20:47:10 <Vorpal> Gregor, I don't think there is such a strong connotation of concert flute in the Swedish word "flöjt", though I
20:47:25 <Vorpal> I'm* not a professional musician
20:47:35 <Vorpal> so maybe in those circles that connotation exists
20:49:47 <oklopol> "Vorpal I guess that is why it has a tiny bit of airflow then" erm, you do know that air tends to balance its pressure? you don't need any airflow.
20:50:41 <oklopol> if there was no airflow, it would be even easier to blow forever (ofc not very hard anyway)
20:51:01 <Vorpal> yes obviously, the issue was stopping, not continuing
20:51:57 <Vorpal> I actually have no idea how you could blow a wind instrument forever though. I know there is a way to do it, I just don't know how
20:52:10 <oklopol> yeah but why the heck would you need to breathe in to stop it o_O
20:52:39 <Vorpal> oklopol, to reduce the absolute pressure on the pressure sensor so it stops making sound?
20:52:56 <oklopol> you think the air pressure increases when you blow and then stays that way until someone explicitly reduces the pressure by sucking?
20:53:00 <mroman> Can one revoke his citizen ship and live in the next forrest for the rest of his live where every day would be saturday?
20:53:01 <Vorpal> oklopol, I assume the sound making is a linear function of the applied pressure compared to ambient pressure?
20:53:24 <Vorpal> oklopol, I think if you don't allow it to flow back out then it will stay?
20:53:48 <Vorpal> oklopol, of course you could just let it flow back in
20:53:54 <Vorpal> as opposed to actively sucking
20:54:26 <oklopol> erm. okay so yeah if it was a fucking balloon with a one-way valve which somehow still lets stuff out when it's being sucked on i guess.
20:54:52 <oklopol> okay i think we're imagining some details very differently
20:55:08 <Vorpal> that is quite probably the issue yes
20:55:15 <Vorpal> I have no idea how the actual sensor work
20:55:19 <oklopol> you are imagining some sort of insane flabberfleming and i'm imagining something sensible.
20:55:34 <Vorpal> what is a "flabberfleming"?
20:55:56 <oklopol> it's exactly what it sounds like.
20:56:03 <Vorpal> and I have no idea what that is
20:56:49 <oklopol> it's a balloon with a one-way valve that is actually only one-way when one atmosphere of pressure is on the outside, but when less, it lets air out (not depending on pressure inside)
20:56:59 <oklopol> which is also an instrument
20:58:33 <Vorpal> oklopol, anyway I'm basically modelling it as a cavity with a small pipe, which you put in your mouth. I was not implying a value, nor was I implying that you would need to actively suck, just that you would need to let air flow back in your mouth to release the pressure. You can't just stop increasing the pressure, the pressure must be reduced to match ambient pressure outside the instrument
20:58:42 <oklopol> also when you suck on it, almost no air flows, so i suppose the balloon doesn't empty through the mouthpiece when you suck
20:59:11 <oklopol> okay, i see what you mean.
20:59:48 <oklopol> i preferred my flabberfleming interpretation though
21:00:32 <Vorpal> oklopol, while an instrument where air flows through would over time go back to ambient pressure, depending on how much air is allowed to flow through (and the size of the cavity) this may take a long time or happen very quickly
21:00:42 <itidus21> so... i have seen the future of gaming. but i do like this topic of flabberfleming
21:01:00 <Vorpal> you probably want it to be rather slow to work properly though, since it is not the air flow as such that is creating the sound
21:01:03 <Phantom_Hoover> <oklopol> it's a balloon with a one-way valve that is actually only one-way when one atmosphere of pressure is on the outside, but when less, it lets air out (not depending on pressure inside)
21:01:11 <oklopol> the plural is flabberflemma btw.
21:02:48 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, huh I thought he described a one-way valve that can electronically be overriden. It would need three pressure sensors and a micro controller chip I think...
21:03:33 <Vorpal> basically you need one to detect ambient pressure, and one on either side of the one-way valve
21:03:56 <oklopol> so i would be a bit surprised if this gadget had a name
21:03:58 <Vorpal> might not need the one on the inside (except for the music part)
21:04:11 <oklopol> well apart from "flabberfleming mouthpiece" ofc
21:06:54 <Vorpal> oklopol, yeah I doubt that word has any synonyms
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22:14:16 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, there?
22:14:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Left because he finds the level of discourse beneath his standards, as usual.
22:15:10 <Vorpal> yeah he is still connected
22:15:58 <Vorpal> not in any channels from what I can see (so he doesn't share any with me and has +s set, or if +s is not set, is not in any channels that are not +s)
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22:30:57 <tswett> augur_: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Proce
22:35:48 * tswett starts rewriting ye spec.
22:36:00 <Vorpal> ihope? Haven't seen that guy for ages, did he switch nick or something
22:36:46 * oerjan swats tswett too for good measure-----###
22:37:04 <tswett> Didn't he change his nick to "kerlo" or something?
22:37:27 <tswett> So does this mean I've been swatted for good?
22:37:55 <Vorpal> oerjan, I don't remember were he went
22:38:06 <Vorpal> I think he used to change nick a lot
22:38:15 <Vorpal> but that is all I remember
22:38:25 <Vorpal> and I have no clue who he is currently
22:38:33 <Vorpal> oerjan, who is he currently
22:38:36 <tswett> I'm changing the page for Proce to say it was invented by Tanner Swett.
22:39:10 <Vorpal> tswett, so you are ihope?
22:39:28 <tswett> Let's just say ihope had a tendency to take credit for my work.
22:39:59 <Vorpal> well I have the complete clogs logs I should be able to do a query to the database I stored it in and track who he currently is
22:40:08 <Vorpal> oh wait, that is on a computer that is currently booted to windows
22:40:20 <tswett> I don't think it really matters.
22:41:00 <tswett> Although, come to think of it, I hope he's doing all right...
22:41:05 <tswett> ...erm, no pun intended.
22:41:58 <Vorpal> oerjan, thwarted by computer games :P
22:42:16 <tswett> I guess we could email him. I think his email address is ihope127@gmail.com or something.
22:42:22 <Vorpal> (yes I'm kind of bored of nethack, wesnoth, neverwinter nights 1 and uh...
22:43:12 <oerjan> `pastlog tswett.*ihope
22:43:36 <Vorpal> oerjan, might have gone through more nicks in between
22:43:53 <oerjan> `pastlog tswett.*ihope
22:44:15 <HackEgo> 2011-05-16.txt:10:23:17: <elliott> tswett!~Warrigal@unaffiliated/ihope
22:44:34 <tswett> That's a lot of pseudonyms.
22:44:48 <tswett> I mean, "tswett" isn't a pseudonym. It's just a nym.
22:45:05 <oerjan> i don't really remember that unaffiliated guy
22:45:26 <Vorpal> oerjan, yes his work is apparent everywhere
22:45:38 <Vorpal> oerjan, he even messed up my whois!
22:45:48 <Phantom_Hoover> reddit has a post voted to +3 advocating the genocide of the Palestinians.
22:46:00 <tswett> Does anyone know what school ihope is going to nowadays?
22:46:03 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, be happy it isn't more than +3
22:46:17 <tswett> I thought I heard a rumor he was going to Stanford or something.
22:46:20 <oerjan> tswett: he probably dropped out long ago
22:46:27 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, anyway surely that is against the TOS (advocating genocide)
22:46:33 <Vorpal> so you could report it
22:46:40 <tswett> I honestly wouldn't be surprised...
22:46:48 <Phantom_Hoover> I have this sinking feeling it's because they dressed it up as anti-Islamism which reddit is very fond of.
22:46:54 <oerjan> no spamming, no vote buying, and no advocating genocide.
22:49:32 <oerjan> i've frequently been thinking what we need is for some mad scientist to grow a volcano right at the temple mount.
22:49:47 <Gregor> I'm playing a sawtooth wave with oboe fingerings.
22:50:17 <oerjan> Gregor: you should start auditing for scifi movies
22:50:33 <Vorpal> so there is this youtube channel of a really amazing violinist that I'm subscribed to, but I can't figure out why the most watched video of her is dubstep violin with over 19 000 000 views, compared to the usual average of 5 000 000...
22:50:39 <Vorpal> that just doesn't make sense to me.
22:50:44 <tswett> Gregor: what does that mean?
22:50:50 <Vorpal> but then I don't understand popular culture very well
22:50:51 <Gregor> tswett: More or less exactly what it says.
22:50:58 <Vorpal> so can anyone enlighten me on this
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22:56:13 <tswett> "Unary operations (including multiplication) take precedence over binary operations."
22:56:23 <tswett> I have a feeling there's something stupid about that sentence.
22:56:27 <tswett> Gregor: what are you playing it on?
22:56:30 <Vorpal> tswett, ... unary multiplication?
22:56:47 <tswett> The syntax for multiplication is number "*" <function>.
22:57:04 <tswett> Since "*" only takes one function as an argument, not two, it is clearly a unary operation.
22:57:19 <Vorpal> ... which language is this?
22:57:38 <Vorpal> tswett, you wrote that language, you should know what is going on
22:58:14 <Vorpal> tswett, so * returns a function that multiplies by something?
22:58:46 <tswett> "function" is really a silly word for what that syntax element represents. It should be "signal".
22:59:06 <Vorpal> tswett, so how is number "*" <function> evaluated?
22:59:25 <tswett> Well, it multiplies the signal by a constant.
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23:22:48 <tswett> Woo. The spec for Proce is now something reasonable.
23:22:54 <tswett> I should implement it one of these days.
23:23:54 <Vorpal> huh I was looking at the sensors of my phone. Amongst the expected accelerometer, magnetic, gyro, proximity and so on there is a rather odd pressure sensor. Air pressure that is according to the documentation
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23:26:00 <pikhq_> I think those are more commonly called "microphones".
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23:26:49 <Vorpal> pikhq_, this isn't though from what I can tell. It is an LPS331AP which is sold as a pressure sensor, not microphone. From the specs it doesn't look useful as a mic
23:27:11 <Vorpal> pikhq_, iirc mics give you the relative changes in pressure? This one gives you absolute values
23:27:45 <Vorpal> unless I completely misremember how mics work
23:27:51 <Vorpal> which is a possibility
23:29:06 <pikhq_> Vorpal: That's a fairly good point.
23:29:25 <Vorpal> pikhq_, you can google the product in question. It makes no sense as a mic
23:29:34 <pikhq_> Well, I have no idea then.
23:30:02 <Vorpal> pikhq_, there are no temperature sensors or such. So they obviously didn't go for a mobile weather station approach
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23:30:08 <oerjan> clearly it is to detect if the phone is falling out of a plane, so that it can shut down safely.
23:30:17 <Vorpal> (man imagine that, if apple added that and gps, the weather data they could sell)
23:30:25 <Vorpal> (it could improve the weather forcasts quite a bit
23:30:35 <Vorpal> (with lots and lots of measurements from all over the place)
23:31:37 <Vorpal> that would actually be kind of cool. In combination with GPS, a pressure sensor and a temperature sensor provides some useful data for weather forcast, sure there is no wind sensor or rain sensor or such, but still extra data!
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23:46:35 <tswett> Vorpal: maybe they *are* trying to make it somewhat of a mobile weather station.
23:46:49 <tswett> I would expect it to be hard to put a useful thermometer on a mobile phone.
23:46:55 <tswett> Since the phone itself generates heat.
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23:52:00 <fizzie> Vorpal: Some handheld GPSen have barometers for altitude guessing. (Sure, you can get a 3D reading from the GPS, but that can be pretty inaccurate too, and needs more visible satellites than just location.)
23:53:01 <fizzie> "Says John Celenza, the lead meteorological developer at Weather Underground, "the barometer is probably used on the phone to aid in correcting altitude measurements by the GPS." In other words, the barometer is more likely than not intended to be a source of supplemental data for the GPS sensor, adding altitude measurements for increased accuracy. The atmospheric pressure is directly related ...
23:53:07 <fizzie> ... to elevation, so a barometer can very easily be used as an altimeter, measuring your altitude."
23:53:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, it is also related to weather though
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23:53:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, where is that quote from?
23:54:28 <fizzie> Random google page, http://m.popsci.com/gadgets/article/2011-10/so-um-why-does-new-google-phone-have-barometer-it
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23:56:16 <fizzie> IIRC, the N900 has a readable temperature sensor in the battery, but I doubt it generally has much to do with ambient temperature.
23:57:36 <fizzie> $ cat /sys/devices/platform/omap34xx_temp/temp1_input
23:57:40 <fizzie> Dunno if it's weird units or just not working.
23:57:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, speaking of batteries. Any idea why the NFC antenna is generally in the battery?
23:58:03 <fizzie> (It's not -40 degrees Celsius inside, here.)
23:58:14 <Vorpal> Is it just to prevent people from buying non-OEM batteries?
23:58:15 <fizzie> (Nor outside, for that matter.)
23:58:50 <fizzie> No clue, but could be.
00:00:31 <fizzie> Actually checking again, it's (the N900 temp, that is) in the phone, just next to the battery. Probably cuts off charging if it raises to "you could burn an egg" temperatures.
00:02:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, how much does pressure vary with altitude compared to how much it varies with weather?
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00:06:15 <fizzie> IIRC you need really significant altitude changes to vary more than due to weather, but I suppose you could get some relative altitude data with better precision, maybe. (Weather doesn't change all that rapidly.)
00:07:50 <Vorpal> why don't they make glasses with oleophobic coatings?
00:07:52 <fizzie> It could even slurp the reference barometric pressure from the nearest weather station over the net and use that to fix things for altitude readings.
00:08:22 <Vorpal> and speaking of that, why don't they make glasses out of Gorilla glass?
00:09:02 <Vorpal> fizzie, right, that seems reasonable
00:11:05 <fizzie> I suppose their lens-making tools might not work on that? I don't really know how Gorilla glass works.
00:11:29 <Vorpal> the oleophobic coating should though
00:11:41 <fizzie> Or maybe they just assume people with glasses don't get hit so often.
00:12:08 <Vorpal> that is the real issue
00:13:50 <fizzie> Apparently some folks at "Zenni Optical" do oleophobic coating on eyeglasses. (Didn't see any actual reviews on whether it works.)
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00:16:18 <VorpalPhone> fizzie: glasses with that would be amazing though
00:18:53 <fizzie> They took a professional-photographer research group photo at work few weeks back, but I don't think it's online yet.
00:19:29 <fizzie> All others are somewhat old.
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00:20:02 <fizzie> There's a dithered black-and-white one at http://zem.fi/img/namecard.png -- that's from 2004.
00:20:46 <fizzie> I don't normally have the hair quite like that.
00:21:06 <fizzie> I was visiting a friend, whose girlfriend did that, if I recall correctly.
00:22:01 <fizzie> Yes, but not braided like that, nor with a bowtie-like thing.
00:24:11 <fizzie> I used it in a black-and-white-printed piece of paper at my (shared-)office door originally.
00:24:28 <fizzie> Also it's not quite as clear as the original, which is just a benefit.
00:25:14 <fizzie> I, uh... actually the other online photo I have is from 2001, 18th birthday party, and it has an even more ridiculous hair.
00:25:22 <fizzie> Again someone else's fault.
00:25:57 <fizzie> I'm not sure I should.
00:27:50 <fizzie> Well, it's over a decade old, maybe I'm detached enough from it.
00:27:56 <VorpalPhone> Also why does swype think "why" is eddy or edgy most puff the time
00:28:15 <fizzie> http://chillout.irc-galleria.net/e/fi-i/00/00/00/65/65.jpg?h=31fa662a24e06ca351d0a2329dc4dad3456ee50b&t=1341735256 -- and yes, the query string params seem to be necessary.
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00:28:57 <fizzie> Maybe they'll get that group photo up soon, then I can refer to it. (Except if it turns out horrible.)
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00:31:37 <fizzie> Speech group of the Information and Computer Science department of the School of Science of Aalto University.
00:32:09 <fizzie> Kind of long to spell out like that in an affiliation field.
00:32:24 <fizzie> Speech recognition and synthesis, for the most part.
00:33:26 <fizzie> Also it's part of the Computational... O-something Inverse... N-something special thing-thing, but I'm not sure where it goes, hierarchically.
00:33:34 <fizzie> I guess it goes a bit sideways.
00:34:03 <fizzie> Haven't talked to, can't really have an opinion.
00:35:05 <fizzie> Oh, it was "Centre of Excellence in Computational Inference Research".
00:35:16 <VorpalPhone> Samsung's s voice is annoying. That is their siri clone
00:35:17 <fizzie> It's just called COIN most of the time.
00:35:43 <fizzie> (The Centre of Excellence thing is some sort of a funding-related nation-wide thing.)
00:36:00 <fizzie> (There's probably a dozen or two of them.)
00:37:06 <fizzie> Well, the previous Centre of Excellence used to be AIRC, and then NN-something before that.
00:37:18 <fizzie> It's a fixed-term (five years?) thing.
00:37:43 <VorpalPhone> Sure you live up to that, but everyone else?
00:38:24 <fizzie> I'm not even sure who of the department are "in" COIN. I *think* our group as a whole is.
00:38:45 <fizzie> It's not like it actually affected something that'd be visible on my level.
00:38:46 <VorpalPhone> You mean the title is on a rotating schedule?
00:39:01 <fizzie> They nominate new ones as old ones end.
00:39:14 <fizzie> (It's not an exclusive title.)
00:39:34 <fizzie> And normally it has a bit different focus than the previous one.
00:39:57 <fizzie> I think this current one is in fact shared with University of Helsinki.
00:40:10 <fizzie> Adative Informatics Research Centre.
00:40:32 <fizzie> And the one before had Neural Networks in the name.
00:42:05 <fizzie> "The Finnish Centre of Excellence in Computational Inference Research (COIN) develops methods for transforming the data produced by the current data revolution into useful information. The key methodology for achieving this goal is statistical and computational inference based on the data. The emphasis is on large data collections and computationally demanding modelling and inference ...
00:42:11 <fizzie> ... algorithms. Our mission is to push the boundary towards both more complex problems, requiring more sructured data models, and towards extremely rapid inference. -- We will work on two flagship applications. In the Intelligent Information Access flagship, the challenge is to make use of massive interrelated information sources, whether in everyday life or in science, and select what ...
00:42:17 <fizzie> ... information to present to the user. The inference needs to be done on-line, learning relevance from the user's responses. In the Computational Biology and Medicine flagship, we develop methods for maximally utilizing the novel measurement databases and structured stochastic models in making data-driven biology cumulative."
00:42:22 <fizzie> Someone good at writing funding applications has been doing their blurbs.
00:42:37 <fizzie> Since it says "we will", chances are it's quoted directly from the application docs.
00:42:55 <fizzie> Anyway, fancy buzzwords and all that.
00:43:24 <itidus21> i love the part where the acronym isn't even close to the word it indicates
00:43:50 <fizzie> COmputational INference, COIN.
00:44:12 <fizzie> Suppose they wanted it pronounceable and memorable.
00:44:39 <itidus21> well thats extremely arbitrary :D
00:44:55 <fizzie> I'm no biologist. But Bayesians doing biology. Gene expression datasets feature heavily, I think.
00:46:15 <fizzie> Protein-protein interaction networks, too. (All I know about this is the abstracts in email ads of arranged talks.)
00:46:44 <itidus21> its roughly like saying, The Esoteric Programming Languages Wiki(ESPR)
00:46:54 <VorpalPhone> itidus21: not as random as xml... should be eml
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01:06:21 -!- Phantom_Hoover has set topic: #esoteric: Where we decide just how much you can shoot someone and their dog. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | This is what the bfjoust hill will look like under the new scoring system: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=XEWnVMg8.
01:06:53 <Phantom_Hoover> itidus21, that's contrived because it leaves out half the words, though.
01:07:20 <VorpalPhone> Also input method is pretty cool. I I'm trying out SwiftKey atm
01:07:30 <itidus21> The Finnish Centre of Excellence in Computational Inference Research (COIN)
01:09:28 <VorpalPhone> Also SwiftKey is much faster than Swype with two hands. And more comfortable
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01:53:44 <VorpalPhone> Swype beta is pretty good as well. Both it and swiftkey have their own advantages...
02:01:37 <Sgeo> Swype is still in beta?
02:07:51 <VorpalPhone> There is a beta version, much improved to the default on this phone
02:09:14 <VorpalPhone> Sgeo: the default is just Samsung keyboard with swiping. I proper swupe 3 beta is better
02:09:56 <VorpalPhone> Using SwiftKey atm though, and much faster with the thumbs
02:11:06 <VorpalPhone> Skype is better with one hand or with an index finger (and holding in the other hand)
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03:37:47 <shachaf> 20:37 <zzo38> edwardk: Do you know what I was writing about above? Maybe you know, nobody else responded and neither did you
03:37:53 <shachaf> zzo38: What a charming phrasing. :-)
03:39:32 <shachaf> Oh, edwardk is in here too these days.
03:40:31 <edwardk> i drove him off the other day with too much talk of locally nameless syntax
03:40:51 <edwardk> i've learned over the years you have to approach him slowly, with one hand out holding a bit of interesting code
03:41:35 <edwardk> but if you get too aggressive he clams up and goes quiet, or runs away
03:49:46 <Sgeo> Well, /r/nostalgia thinks I'm a spammer
03:49:54 <Sgeo> Because I linked to a song on modarchive
03:50:13 <Sgeo> Or, well, that the link I submitted was spam
03:50:31 <Sgeo> Because apparently it "takes me to some website to download something"
03:50:51 <Sgeo> http://modarchive.org/module.php?36405 the link in question
03:54:40 <shachaf> edwardk: So I was at this one category-theory-related meeting where they were drawing a bunch of diagrams and things.
03:55:08 <shachaf> Someone said I should read Pierce's book on it. Is that a good book to read on it?
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04:11:52 <edwardk> categories for the working mathematician
04:12:20 <edwardk> that said, awodey is good, and lawvere and schanuel will drill drill drill the basics until you know sections/retracts cold
04:12:34 <edwardk> i also really like of all things serge lang's algebra
04:12:51 <edwardk> because he goes out of his way to set up the category theory construct as he defines the algebraic ones
04:13:14 <edwardk> its only slightly less dense than CftWM but way way thicker
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06:38:17 <nortti> how is crunchfuck supposed to work?
06:42:46 <mroman> cat ignore_list.txt | ./crunchfuck 'startProgram' howManyPrograms
06:43:06 <mroman> It then brute forces the next howManyPrograms starting from 'startProgram'.
06:43:23 <mroman> while ignoring results for numbers on the ignore_list
06:43:36 <mroman> (which is a newline seperated list of numbers followed by the text 'end')
06:44:53 <mroman> If your startProgram has a length of 15 you can put all numbers on the ignore_list known to be shorter than 16 bytes
06:45:07 <mroman> because it won't get any shorter.
06:50:01 <mroman> You can bruteforce on an i3 approx 16 ULONG_MAX ranges a night :)
06:50:27 <mroman> checking the output is more time consuming :)
06:50:31 <mroman> if you don't automate it.
06:51:26 <ion> http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120622/16193319442/myth-dispensing-whole-spotify-barely-pays-artists-story-is-bunk.shtml
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07:59:08 <kmc> i am amused by http://www.electrical-contractor.net/PC/EuroBS1363adapter.jpg
07:59:15 <kmc> apparently if you buy import electronics in the UK this is often what you get
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08:06:03 <shachaf> kmc: You find that amusing?
08:22:02 <kmc> "The 3 kilometers (1.9 mi) long Botlekspoortunnel under Rotterdam harbour replaces the antiquated Botlek bridge, which remains in service as backup and for regional traffic. Space around the tunnel was so constrained that, after completing the first tube, the tunnel boring machine had to be dismantled inside the tube. The parts were then returned to the starting point and reassembled to bore the second tube."
08:29:46 <mroman> Cuz bootlegz're mainstreamz?
08:31:11 <fizzie> The bootleg bridge, replaced by the bootleg sport tunnel.
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08:31:43 <kmc> nederlandse spoorwegen
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10:39:03 <Sgeo> This spam reads like something some kid would threaten
10:39:10 <Sgeo> It's supposedly a letter from the FBI
10:39:26 <Sgeo> "We have warned you so many times and you have decided to ignore our e-mails or because you believe we have not been instructed to get you arrested, and today if you
10:39:26 <Sgeo> fail to respond back to us with the payment then, we would first send a letter to the mayor of the city where you reside and direct them to close your bank account
10:39:26 <Sgeo> until you have been jailed and all your properties will be confiscated by the fbi."
10:39:50 <Sgeo> " We would also send a letter to the company/agency that you are working for so that
10:39:50 <Sgeo> they could get you fired until we are through with our investigations because a suspect is not suppose to be working for the government or any private organization.
10:41:08 <Sgeo> http://pastie.org/4170733
10:41:21 <Sgeo> Ok, I hate pastie.
10:41:25 <Sgeo> Next pastebin?
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10:42:29 <fizzie> I've sort of lazily defaulted to sprunge.
10:43:00 <fizzie> I've gotten that one too.
10:43:05 <fizzie> Or at least one very much like it.
10:43:16 <Sgeo> http://pastebin.com/f7Bi93pT
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10:43:39 <kmc> pastebin.com sucks
10:43:43 <Vorpal> sprunge is really nice though
10:43:46 <kmc> full of ads
10:44:00 <Vorpal> there are ads on the internet?
10:44:19 * kmc rolls eyes
10:44:23 <Sgeo> kmc, at least it linewraps
10:44:26 <fizzie> Sgeo: http://p.zem.fi/ikvv
10:44:31 <Vorpal> Sgeo, that isn't a good thing
10:44:42 <fizzie> Linewrapping is just a |fmt|sprunge in place of |sprunge.
10:44:53 <fizzie> Vorpal: Spam for a spam, that's the rule.
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10:44:54 <Vorpal> why are you pasting spam?
10:45:06 -!- oerjan has set topic: Where we decide just how much you can shoot someone, and their little dog too. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | This is what the bfjoust hill will look like under the new scoring system: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=XEWnVMg8.
10:45:08 <kmc> Vorpal: i was completely unaware that adblock existed. thank you for telling me about it, it proves that you are the more intelligent person and more knowledgable in the ways of the world
10:45:09 <Sgeo> Apparently, Vorpal has me on ignore
10:45:36 <Vorpal> Sgeo, I just connected to my bouncer
10:45:44 <Sgeo> Ah. Read scrollup then
10:45:49 <Vorpal> and for some reason scrollback replay is broken...
10:45:54 <Sgeo> Read logs then
10:45:56 <Vorpal> I have to investigate that later
10:46:01 <Vorpal> and read logs for now yeah
10:46:34 <Vorpal> <Sgeo> This spam reads like something some kid would threaten [...] <-- okay why were you pasting spam? And why were you reading spam to begin with?
10:46:58 <fizzie> I read some spam every now and then.
10:47:09 <Sgeo> fizzie, mine's better. They're also offering me money, apparently.
10:47:31 <Sgeo> I'm under investigation and being offered compensatory money
10:47:33 <kmc> there's spam on the internet? lolololol, i use spamblock and I will tell everyone about it whenever spam is mentioned
10:47:54 <kmc> did you know I don't use Windows either?
10:47:59 <kmc> and i don't own a TV
10:48:05 <Sgeo> Vorpal, it's good to check Spam folder occasionally (just in case), but some spam caught my eye
10:48:31 <fizzie> Sgeo: It's not exactly "yours", I have had it too. Anyway, you must've not read "mine" very carefully: "-- the only funds that was entitled to you of which the FBI has been given the necessary order to necessitate the transfer is the compensation funds which is valued at the sum of $20million usd that was issued to by the Nigerian Government to compensate you for the embarrassment and insults ...
10:48:37 <fizzie> ... to your personality --"
10:48:43 <Vorpal> Sgeo, eh, gmail is pretty good at spam filtering
10:48:55 <Sgeo> fizzie, oh, oops
10:49:24 <fizzie> Though to be honest, it's not exactly an offer, more of an aside.
10:52:28 <fizzie> Anyway, there seems to be a reasonable amount of this spam which sort of presupposes a pre-existing relationship with some other spammers.
10:53:11 <Vorpal> does anyone actually fall for spam?
10:53:40 <Vorpal> I can't see how they can make money out of it
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10:53:50 <fizzie> Because I got one from the "bank insider" the people I was "conversing with" were going to use for the actual money transfer, warning me that those people are but scammers and haven't paid him his agreed-upon $10k yet. (But he was willing to make a deal directly with me.)
10:54:15 <fizzie> It sort of assumes that the recipient is in the middle of doing some deal with some other spammers.
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11:01:44 <oerjan> <Sgeo> Well, /r/nostalgia thinks I'm a spammer <-- um you mean an actual moderator thinks so? or just the automatic spam filter? or just stupid commenters?
11:02:01 <oerjan> if #2, ask a moderator to fix it.
11:05:04 <kmc> yeah some people called me a spammer for posting links to my own blog on reddit
11:05:15 <kmc> even though i was posting original content and my blog has no ads
11:05:47 <kmc> substantial content too, not the usual "17 weird old tricks to make you a Real Programmer"
11:06:01 <kmc> which constitutes the majority of /r/programming
11:08:29 <ais523> wow, Dwarf Fortress has a randomly generated subtitle too
11:08:42 <ais523> in addition to "Slaves to Armok: God of Blood: Chapter II: Dwarf Fortress"
11:09:17 <kmc> (that was a reference to a particular type of online ad, so it will be lost on you more evolved specimins of mankind who use adblock)
11:09:56 <Sgeo> Adblock Plus is a memory hog
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11:14:37 <oerjan> kmc: hey, reddit _thanks_ me for not using adblock. too bad i never click them except by accident.
11:15:44 <oerjan> (most of my ad clicking happens when i try to get a particularly crowded page into focus)
11:47:01 <Sgeo> On UniversityOfReddit, sending a message that contains the words manhoodacademy or manhood101 is an instaban
11:47:51 <Sgeo> As is attempting to make a course with either of those in the description, but that's not as alarming
11:48:33 <Sgeo> https://github.com/ureddit/ureddit/commit/3161d6f1e6a2660914f511b027f8a9c090469c76
11:50:52 <Sgeo> Ok, so apparently manhoodacademy and manhood101 are actually existing mysogenistic things
11:51:26 <Sgeo> But even mentioning the word in a private message equating to a ban seems extreme
11:51:59 <itidus21> oerjan: one webpage i wrote that kept getting hits was just a rant
11:52:38 <itidus21> but TBH i haven't had a web presence(tm) for 6 years or more
11:53:22 <oerjan> itidus21: wait, was that in response to something i said?
11:54:05 <itidus21> oerjan: sort of yeah. i just did this rant about anime and games and kung fu films once.. and it got 1000s of google hits
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11:59:56 <oerjan> yes. just don't mix in any oranges.
12:01:33 <itidus21> "Potatoes" 8 letters, vegetable, requires cooking, grows underground. "apples" 6 letters, fruit, directly edible, grows on trees.
12:03:14 <itidus21> sadly i defined fruits and vegetables instead of apples and potatoes i think
12:03:27 * oerjan has eaten a potato raw before
12:04:09 <oerjan> it tastes rather stronger than the boiled variety
12:04:37 <boily> oerjan: wasn't it a little bit too starchy?
12:04:42 <kmc> oerjan: with skin?
12:05:23 <kmc> just don't eat the green parts >_<
12:05:33 <itidus21> i can't even bear the taste of potato which is 70% cooked
12:05:49 <oerjan> i'm not sure what "starchy" means, i think it was about the same consistency as a raw carrot or rutabaga
12:06:18 <oerjan> it was pretty long ago, anyway
12:08:20 <oerjan> kmc: i've eaten _boiled_ potatoes with skin, mind you.
12:09:18 <oerjan> it's traditional not to peel them when they are very fresh
12:09:50 <boily> same here. when you have "patates nouvelles" (new harvest potatoes), you don't peel them.
12:10:14 <oerjan> "nypoteter" in norwegian
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12:15:49 <oerjan> this thar browser needs a killing
12:15:51 <fizzie> Well, that's nice: the LaserJet 4650 and the LaserJet 5200 that we have in the closest print corner both just flat out refuse to print out the PDFs generated by SNCB's (the Belgian national railway company) "tickets online" system. Both just say "INSUFFICIENT MEMORY".
12:16:22 <fizzie> (They printed my full-page-150dpi-raster-image Gimp-produced PDFs just fine.)
12:16:32 <fizzie> (And these have just text for the most part.)
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12:17:09 <fizzie> I suppose I'll try to print out from Acrobat Reader, maybe it'll do a better PS conversion or something.
12:17:26 <kmc> yeah, i agree that skin-on is the way for mashed, baked, or even french fried potatos
12:17:30 <kmc> just makes the texture more interesting
12:18:20 <kmc> maybe SNCB is using everyone's printers to do distributed computation
12:18:25 <kmc> or is distributing printer malware
12:18:56 <fizzie> The web thing was kind of horrible, and it took about two minutes for it to generate the PDF. So I suppose there's *something* going on in that PDF.
12:19:06 <fizzie> Though the files are just 30 kilobytes or so.
12:19:12 <kmc> i don't remember if PDF is capable of arbitrary computation
12:19:25 <kmc> (other than the embedded Javascript feature, which the printer probably does not support)
12:19:37 <Sgeo> iirc, Postscript is?
12:19:40 <kmc> my vague conception is that PDF is like "PostScript in normal form"
12:19:52 <kmc> yeah, postscript is a fairly general stack-based programming language
12:19:56 <kmc> writing postscript by hand can be fun
12:20:08 <fizzie> I have a vague feeling that they may have deliberately broken some of the general programming features.
12:20:22 <fizzie> But I'm certain I'm not certain.
12:20:31 <kmc> you can send a postscript file to your printer which will make it print out the Game of Life, one generation per page, indefinitely
12:21:10 <Sgeo> I should try implementing GoL in something at some point
12:21:21 <Sgeo> But I'm not good at visual stuff
12:21:32 <kmc> you mean graphical output?
12:21:38 <kmc> you can just print to the terminal, or output a PPM file
12:21:39 <fizzie> One PDF normalization I'm sure of is that they impose a strict page structure on it. For a general PostScript file, you can't really do "extract only page X".
12:21:58 <Sgeo> And also, there needs to be some sort of UI, even if console based
12:22:08 <kmc> PPM is a super simple image format
12:22:08 <Sgeo> I want the user to be able to look around a randomly seeded infinite board
12:22:13 <fizzie> "[PostScript] can handle not just graphics, but standard features of programming languages such as if and loop commands. PDF is largely based on PostScript but simplified to remove flow control features like these, while graphics commands such as lineto remain."
12:22:13 <oerjan> kmc: these "new potatoes" are skin-on boiled, though.
12:22:16 <kmc> http://netpbm.sourceforge.net/doc/ppm.html
12:22:28 <kmc> Sgeo: oh, well if you actually want a GUI that's harder (but not that hard)
12:22:42 <kmc> you can probably find like 10 Game of Life examples for any GUI framework you like
12:23:11 <Sgeo> I'm not sure how I'm going to make tradeoffs
12:23:35 <kmc> i coded a game of life thing that runs on a 128 × 48 red LED display
12:23:40 <Sgeo> I mean, I can't store every single calculated cell (which is why I'm not going to just use Haskell's built-in laziness)
12:23:49 <kmc> i made a few unusual design choices
12:24:05 <fizzie> Oh, these PDFs are "(SECURED)". Maybe that has something to do with the problems. Though one (out of 11) printed out with just the background image lacking, so maybe not.
12:24:08 <Sgeo> Going to need to make my own laziness, with forgetting
12:24:14 <kmc> both edges of the grid wrap to the opposite edge, but with reflection, so it's a projective plane
12:24:23 <kmc> (or almost, because i didn't really do anything sensible at the corners)
12:24:47 <kmc> also the way it keeps the display interesting is that occasionally it will spawn a glider in a random position
12:25:03 <Sgeo> Hmm, easy constraint: Under no circumstances should the user be able to cause an inconsistency
12:25:12 <Sgeo> Saying "Out of memory" is preferable
12:25:20 * oerjan printed a mandelbrot set with postscript once
12:25:31 <fizzie> This silly thing inserts a photo, and then four copies of a summary of the ticket as totally unreadable red, yellow, blue and green texts on top of the photo. I have no idea what purpose that serves.
12:25:43 <kmc> i think IFS fractals are very easy in postscript
12:25:44 <oerjan> took a long time. and wasn't very good being only black and white.
12:25:44 <fizzie> Except to make a real ugly mess if someone prints this thing with a black-and-white printer, I suppose.
12:26:11 <kmc> i wrote a TI-83 BASIC program to render a mandelbrot set in 4-level greyscale
12:26:15 <kmc> it took about an hour
12:26:42 <fizzie> Hey, I think I wrote one too except for TI-86 and black-and-white.
12:27:04 <fizzie> You can't really get grayscale output (well, except with dithering) out of TI-86 basic, anyway, since it requires some interrupt handling.
12:27:11 <kmc> there's no builtin greyscale support in TI-83 BASIC, but you could flip between saved images with speed just barely good enough
12:27:19 <kmc> (this was on the 83+, the 83 might be too slow)
12:27:36 <fizzie> I have a feeling 86 would be also too slow since the saved images actually copy the data.
12:27:48 <fizzie> Normally you'd just flip the starting address of the display buffer.
12:28:30 <fizzie> Sadly, I don't think it has a POKE.
12:28:54 <fizzie> (Or a translates-to-'out' either.)
12:28:58 <kmc> hmm, I wonder what format the TI-83+ uses for fractional numbers
12:30:12 <fizzie> The TI-86 floats are ten-bytes-or-so BCD floats, and the ROM routines are incredibly horribly slow. (I don't know about the fractionals, it's pretty iffy in TI-86 at all.)
12:32:40 <fizzie> Seven bytes of BCD digits, two-byte biased exponent with some arbitrary range restriction, and one type/flag byte to denote sign and real/complex.
12:34:35 <fizzie> And if I recall correctly, the UI will only ever show up to 12 digits of the mantissa.
12:35:57 <fizzie> I got into an argument about this on an "introduction to computer architecture" (or something) course.
12:36:46 <fizzie> The person doing the lecturing -- I think a temporary substitute -- just plain refused to believe there was any system in the world that used a non-binary floating point format.
12:37:37 <fizzie> A bit weird since even IEEE-754 defindes the decimal32, decimal64 and decimal128 formats.
12:38:17 <fizzie> (Those aren't BCD, though.)
12:40:08 <Vorpal> <fizzie> The TI-86 floats are ten-bytes-or-so BCD floats, and the ROM routines are incredibly horribly slow. (I don't know about the fractionals, it's pretty iffy in TI-86 at all.) <-- it did fp in software?!
12:40:12 <Vorpal> that just sounds stupid
12:40:18 <Vorpal> for a calculator I mean
12:40:33 <fizzie> The Z80 does not exactly have an FPU. And those cost big bucks.
12:40:41 <fizzie> It's not like the calculation speed was all *that* important.
12:40:51 <Vorpal> wow, why do they use them for calculators...
12:40:57 <Vorpal> I guess the battery life?
12:41:06 <Vorpal> my TI-83+ has exceptional battery life after all
12:41:53 <fizzie> It doesn't have hardware integer multiplication or division either, for that matter.
12:42:10 <Vorpal> kmc, iirc you can put asm into basic programs on the 83+
12:42:19 <Vorpal> don't remember the details though
12:43:12 <fizzie> If you interpret that *just* right, you can do that on the 86 too, because you can write hex-encoded machine code into a program with the BASIC editor, put a suitable keyword at start, and then "compile" that.
12:43:23 <fizzie> Doesn't have any sort of "inline ASM" though.
12:43:33 <fizzie> Or an assembler that'd do mnemonics.
12:43:40 <fizzie> So you have to be kind of masochistic.
12:44:10 <fizzie> (Unless it's a very short program.)
12:44:26 <fizzie> I guess you could use that to make a "POKE" program you could call.
12:44:38 <Vorpal> uh a fan in my desktop revved up from the lowest speed. Just for a couple of seconds. That never happened before... All the fans usually run at the lowest speed even when under heavy load
12:45:42 <fizzie> Dust buildup is the main cause for higher fan speeds for me. Especially the fan exhaust grill seems to collect quite a lot of it.
12:46:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, I cleaned the case like two weeks ago, normally I would clean it in August next time. Also the intakes have dust filters
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12:46:28 <Vorpal> anyway I think it was the GPU fan
12:46:53 <Vorpal> I managed to get it to repeat by doing the same thing again and I observed all the other fan values
12:46:57 <Vorpal> and none of those changed
12:47:05 <Vorpal> trying to remember how to get the GPU fan speed atm
12:47:20 <Vorpal> oh wait, could be PSU I guess
12:47:25 <fizzie> Well, that's nice; now I printed one of the 11 tickets from acroread, and it no longer accepts mouse clicks.
12:47:27 <Vorpal> can't observe that speed
12:47:52 <Vorpal> <fizzie> If you interpret that *just* right, you can do that on the 86 too, because you can write hex-encoded machine code into a program with the BASIC editor, put a suitable keyword at start, and then "compile" that. <-- ah yes, that is how it works
12:48:08 <kmc> yeah i did write some small machine language programs, assembled by hand
12:48:25 <Vorpal> anyway with the 83+ you can transfer programs from a computer
12:48:42 <kmc> all of the TI graphing calculators have that ability
12:49:05 <Vorpal> but I thought it lacked the link port completely
12:49:12 <Vorpal> might have been some other model
12:49:51 <fizzie> All the TI-8x's I know of do. Though the 85 had some awkwardness when it came to asm programs.
12:50:07 <fizzie> I think you needed to be running a shell, you couldn't just invoke them from the normal thing.
12:50:08 <Vorpal> So why not just make a program that goes under the APPS button. IIRC they run directly from flash or something?
12:50:10 <fizzie> Or something like that.
12:50:19 <kmc> Vorpal: you can do that too
12:50:43 <kmc> the TI-86 doesn't have that though
12:51:07 <kmc> nor does the 85 or the 83 (non-plus)
12:51:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, the odd thing about the fan is that Trine 2 caused it. And it was on the screen between chapters where it just shows some text and some hand drawn artwork
12:51:20 <Vorpal> so uh, not sure why that makes the GPU rev up
12:51:34 <Vorpal> normal 3D rendered Trine 2 gameplay doesn't as far as I can tell
12:52:04 <kmc> they didn't have flash, just ROM and a small amount of RAM
12:52:15 <fizzie> Small?! It's 128 KB in TI-86.
12:52:21 <fizzie> That's like double the processor address space.
12:52:33 <kmc> also flash apps are signed and i don't remember how annoying it was to get a signing key as some random person
12:52:38 <kmc> or whether you could load unsigned apps
12:52:55 <fizzie> They've bruteforced the system keys so you can flash in a custom OS, though.
12:54:19 <kmc> there is an xkcd strip mocking TI for not upgrading their hardware
12:54:22 <kmc> but as usual xkcd misses the point
12:54:40 <fizzie> Also, regarding "transfer from computer", at least on the TI-86 the computer link cable is not part of the standard accessories, you have to buy it separately. (Or build your own.)
12:54:41 <kmc> let's make fun of people for not jumping on shiny new tech, while ignoring the actual application requirements
12:55:03 <kmc> fizzie: what do you mean? most models don't sell with a link cable
12:55:14 <fizzie> Okay. I thought they might've made it a standard thing.
12:55:17 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/vs5hw/you_guys_are_fucking_champions/
12:55:25 <kmc> some of the newer ones have a USB link cable built in
12:55:28 <Phantom_Hoover> "/r/atheism has turned me from not only being religious but also from being an asshole into a caring and tolerant person."
12:55:31 <Vorpal> god damn it, I almost managed 100% completion on Trine 2 (I have done 100% on Trine 1 of course), but there are two experience orbs that I can't find...
12:55:39 <Vorpal> other than that, I'm 100% complete
12:55:50 <kmc> afaik you can use the standard black link cable or grey link cable with the TI-86
12:56:26 <Vorpal> <kmc> let's make fun of people for not jumping on shiny new tech, while ignoring the actual application requirements <-- I wouldn't mind a faster CPU. Try plotting something more advanced than a polynomial equation on the TI-83+. It can be painfully slow
12:56:57 <fizzie> Well, officially; you can also use something that costs $5 (in parts) that you make.
12:57:17 <kmc> Vorpal: sure, the 83+ is the low end calculator anyway
12:57:24 <Vorpal> <kmc> fizzie: what do you mean? most models don't sell with a link cable <-- mine sold with a Black Link. Of course, I don't have a serial port nowdays on my main computer (I keep an old dell laptop around for that, and that alone)
12:57:25 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: doubtful
12:57:30 <fizzie> Though some standard 2.5mm plugs don't quite fit the link port.
12:57:32 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/vs5hw/you_guys_are_fucking_champions/c578bj2
12:58:34 <fizzie> The black is (IIRC) slightly more picky when it comes to serial ports, too, since it doesn't do translation between RS-232 and the TI protocol internally, but expects software to toggle the port lines appropriately.
12:58:37 <Vorpal> kmc, the TI-83+ has awesome battery time though
12:59:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, so no USB converter?
12:59:26 <kmc> Vorpal: yeah
12:59:33 <fizzie> I have a feeling it might not be so friendly to USB serial ports, right.
12:59:36 <kmc> fizzie: yeah, with the grey cable you could connect directly to a modem
13:00:30 <kmc> i used a grey link cable and a big stack of adapters to connect to a Ricochet modem
13:00:37 <kmc> so i could log into my Linux machine wirelessly from my TI-83+
13:00:47 <kmc> that was pretty entertaining
13:01:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, my motherboard actually has serial in my desktop. However it doesn't have the port, that is an add-on, you put the addon in an empty PCI hole (just the hole at the back of the computer, not the actual PCI slot itself) then you connect a cable from that to the motherboard
13:01:17 <fizzie> The TI link protocol is kind of funny, anyway; it doesn't really have a set clock speed.
13:01:22 <Vorpal> weird way to do it IMO
13:01:39 <kmc> you know, it would be pretty easy to put wireless hardware inside a TI calculator case, and use this to cheat on the SAT etc.
13:01:51 <kmc> Vorpal: that's pretty common
13:02:01 <kmc> saves space on the motherboard backplane itself
13:02:20 <kmc> it's something most people don't use anyway
13:02:22 <Vorpal> kmc, there is space left over there (which is pretty amazing given how many ports this thing has)
13:02:28 <kmc> and maybe you can charge extra for the port
13:02:37 <Vorpal> well I guess there is that yeah
13:02:51 <kmc> well it's not just a matter of physical space, you also need to route the electrical connections to it
13:02:52 <fizzie> You can charge extra for spares after people invariably lose the one that comes in the motherboard box.
13:03:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, there isn't one in the box though=
13:03:12 <kmc> motherboards seem to use standard connector blocks with, like, one parallel port above 3 audio ports, or something
13:03:14 <fizzie> Ah. Well, in that case, especially.
13:03:27 <kmc> if the standard block you need containing a serial port isn't cheaply available, you use the extra slot solution instead
13:03:31 <Vorpal> kmc, I haven't had a parallel port in ages...
13:03:37 * kmc recently bought a machine specifically with a parallel port
13:03:51 <kmc> i have a CNC laser cutter which is controlled via parallel port
13:04:02 <fizzie> The extra port headers seem to be kind of de-facto standardized, though, so you don't need to get the manufacturer's own extra port slot-cover thing.
13:04:04 <kmc> it's controlled via parallel port because it's the cheapest crappiest CNC laser cutter you can buy
13:04:04 <Vorpal> are there USB converters for such?
13:04:14 <kmc> and so they just have stepper motors wired up to a parallel port
13:04:28 <Vorpal> so not proper parallel protocol?
13:04:33 <kmc> no definitely not
13:04:34 <fizzie> Parallel ports are probably the easiest to directly wire things to.
13:04:44 <Vorpal> what about the voltages?
13:04:49 <fizzie> One of the DIY link cables does that. (The other model goes to serial port.)
13:04:49 <kmc> there are USB to parallel adapters, but you can't use them as a general purpose extremely low latency I/O interface
13:04:56 <Vorpal> I know serial has some crazy high voltages
13:05:02 <kmc> Vorpal: what about them
13:05:18 <Vorpal> kmc, does parallel ports have like 12 V or so too for the signal?
13:05:24 <Vorpal> iirc that is what standard serial port has
13:05:38 <fizzie> I think you get +5V out of the data lines, actually.
13:05:39 <kmc> i remember reading a proposal that Beowulf clusters should connect the machines together with parallel port, in addition to gigabit ethernet
13:05:41 <fizzie> But I might misremember.
13:05:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, pretty crazy high still
13:05:51 <kmc> using the parallel port for extremely low latency communication
13:05:52 <fizzie> In the parallel port, that is.)
13:06:24 <kmc> Vorpal: 5V is the standard TTL logic level
13:06:34 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
13:06:45 * kmc prepares to stab someone who complains about "redundant" acronyms
13:06:48 <Vorpal> what are the data line voltages in things like USB?
13:06:53 -!- augur has joined.
13:06:58 <kmc> USB uses differential signaling
13:07:17 <fizzie> RS-232 seems to require anything from 3 to 15 volts. (And -3V to -15V for the other bit.)
13:07:32 <kmc> not that low
13:07:55 <Vorpal> thought you could get like less than 1 V with differential?
13:08:28 <kmc> "On low and full speed devices, a differential ‘1’ is transmitted by pulling D+ over 2.8V with a 15K ohm resistor pulled to ground and D- under 0.3V with a 1.5K ohm resistor pulled to 3.6V. A differential ‘0’ on the other hand is a D- greater than 2.8V and a D+ less than 0.3V with the same appropriate pull down/up resistors."
13:08:42 <kmc> Vorpal: just because you can doesn't mean they do it that way
13:08:47 <kmc> i don't know what the other design considerations are
13:09:12 <Vorpal> kmc, full speed? Is that USB 2.0 or USB 1.1?
13:09:30 <Vorpal> low is USB 1.0, full USB 1.1 right?
13:09:42 <Vorpal> and what is USB 2 then? fuller?
13:09:44 <kmc> high speed
13:09:54 <Vorpal> forgot what they called USB 3 as well
13:10:04 <kmc> i mean USB 2.0 is a version of the spec, that supports all three speeds
13:10:15 <Vorpal> what about USB 3 then?
13:10:17 <kmc> but the fastest speed available in USB 2.0 is called "high speed"
13:10:19 <kmc> look it up
13:10:39 <Vorpal> not that anything uses it yet as far as I can tell. My desktop has USB 3 connectors, but I don't have any peripherals with USB 3 support
13:10:51 <kmc> you can definitely get hard drive enclosures which support it
13:11:02 <Vorpal> right, and that is about it I guess
13:11:18 <Vorpal> kind of surprises me that my new fancy phone didn't do USB 3
13:11:27 <kmc> maybe external monitors/video cards
13:11:29 <Vorpal> I mean, it is Samsung's flagship model after all
13:11:36 <kmc> or maybe manufacturers are skipping USB 3.0 for Thunderbolt
13:11:50 <Vorpal> eh, has anyone except apple adopted that?
13:12:00 <kmc> dude the entire PC industry is based on copying whatever Apple does
13:12:11 <kmc> and they have a huge market share by themselves
13:12:19 <Vorpal> well yes, but I thought they had some exclusive deal on thunderbolt?
13:12:23 <kmc> they were the first to take the plunge with USB
13:12:34 <kmc> the success of USB today is largely due to the iMac
13:12:44 <Vorpal> I had a first generation ibook
13:12:53 <Vorpal> I still think I have that USB floppy drive somewhere XD
13:12:56 <kmc> cause Apple had the guts and the customer loyalty to say "suck it, this is how shit connects now"
13:13:04 <Vorpal> (because then you actually needed floppies still, and apple had dropped it)
13:13:58 <kmc> on the earlier subject of printer hacks, you can change the text on the LCD display of a HP printer with an unauthenticated packet
13:14:06 <kmc> i have used this for both legitimate and prank purposes
13:15:23 <kmc> no, network printers
13:16:48 <kmc> i was printer czar for the house where i lived in college
13:17:05 <Vorpal> what do you mean with that?
13:17:15 <kmc> meaning i was in charge of buying printer supplies, and yelling at people for printing too much
13:17:39 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's "SuperSpeed" for USB 3. (Really.)
13:17:52 <fizzie> I don't know what they're going to go with USB 4. HyperSpeed?
13:17:53 <kmc> so i wrote a script which would scrape the supply levels from the web interface, then calculate how much we were spending per page printed, and put it on the display
13:18:10 <kmc> in hopes that people would see it as they pick up their job and would feel guilty
13:18:13 <kmc> which probably never happened
13:18:18 <fizzie> Anyway, I think low-speed and full-speed are both part of USB 1.0 already.
13:18:31 <kmc> we had one guy who was in the habit of printing a 300 page math textbook, single-sided, and then immediately losing it
13:18:42 <kmc> i think he eventually got banned from 8 different computer labs
13:19:34 <fizzie> I just printed 30 sheets, most of them in color. Now I feel guilty.
13:20:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, at work or at home?
13:20:34 <fizzie> At work, since there's only a black-and-white laser at home.
13:21:23 <kmc> MIT has a new system, where you print to a single campus-wide virtual printer
13:21:29 <fizzie> Didn't want to start dabbling with drying-up inks or whatever, what used to happen with our previous very-little-used DeskJet thing.
13:22:04 <kmc> and then you walk to a printer, scan your ID, and it prints the job there
13:22:16 <fizzie> There's a famous bit in some MS TechNote or such about the benefits of adding printers at different physical locations into the same print queue, because your users will then get more exercise.
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13:24:35 <kmc> it was somewhat controversial at MIT
13:24:46 <kmc> someone even vandalized a few of the stations
13:24:58 <kmc> i guess people don't want to wait around at the printer
13:25:10 <copumpkin> I did reverse the protocol and find the password was symmetrically encrypted, and we had open wifi
13:25:33 <kmc> the problem it solves is people who print big jobs (intentionally or by accident) and then don't pick them up
13:25:36 <kmc> copumpkin: heh
13:26:04 <copumpkin> it was kind of awkward if you had to wait behind someone printing something large, or you were printing something large just before class and a bunch of people needed their assignments
13:26:19 <fizzie> I usually walk to the printer and type in "lpr -Pfoo file" with SSH over the phone just to be there when things print. (The printers do have some sort of "wait until the user types a passcode" features, but I don't think those are all that likely to work.)
13:26:22 <kmc> this is why profs should accept assignments by emailed pdf :)
13:26:37 <copumpkin> but there are always the old-school profs :)
13:26:59 <kmc> we would often pick one person who would print out and hand in everyone's assignments
13:27:10 <kmc> so that everyone else could sleep through class after an all-nighter
13:27:13 <kmc> not really healthy behavior...
13:28:19 <fizzie> I accepted weekly exercise solutions by email or on paper, and there was an approximate 50%/50% split. (Though majority of returned papers were handwritten, since they were mostly mathy.)
13:37:03 <kmc> sorry, when i said "emailed pdf" i should have said "push to a git repository" ;)
13:37:19 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
13:38:27 <fizzie> Don't you mean "add to the Visual SourceSafe library"?
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13:39:22 <kmc> isn't VSS a joke
13:39:26 <kmc> i mean microsoft doesn't use it
13:40:14 <fizzie> That's just because they generously want to save all its powers to their customers.
13:40:52 <fizzie> Also I think it got discontinued and replaced by Team Foundation Something Or Other.
13:41:13 <kmc> but does it have sharepoint integration =D
13:48:13 <Vorpal> <kmc> so that everyone else could sleep through class after an all-nighter <-- from what I seen at university, most comp sci students were pretty study focused and would never have skipped class.
13:48:48 -!- yorick_ has changed nick to yorick.
13:48:50 <Vorpal> personally I only skipped a total of 2 days during my three years at university. And that was when I had influenza.
13:50:07 <kmc> well at my school skipping classes was extremely common
13:50:40 <fizzie> It's not called skipping if one has a legitimate reason such as illness, is it? Then it's just missing class.
13:50:47 <kmc> in most upper level CS classes, most of your grade is projects, with exams a smaller portion, and even the exams are take-home
13:51:10 <kmc> so you're better off spending that time on the projects, and maybe reading through lecture slides when you get a chance
13:51:19 <fizzie> Anyway, people in general do skip lectures here, too. Not all, of course.
13:51:29 <kmc> in many cases the lectures were pretty useless for getting the projects done
13:51:58 <kmc> that said i and my friends skipped more classes than was probably advisable
13:52:28 <Vorpal> <fizzie> It's not called skipping if one has a legitimate reason such as illness, is it? Then it's just missing class. <-- well yeah
13:52:44 <fizzie> The majority (or that's at least how it felt like) of our later classes were in the "seminar" format. (I.e. one or two introductory lectures, then each participant has a topic, some papers, then gives a lecture about it to the others.)
13:53:22 <fizzie> Well, those and some amount of project-based things. But not terribly many "classic" lecture-based things. Or maybe I've just tuned them out.
13:54:40 <fizzie> The parallel computation seminar assigned one or two chapters of a book to each participants, because the prof hadn't managed to motivate himself to read the book otherwise, but he wanted to. (Or that's what he said, anyway.)
13:54:55 <fizzie> s/parallel computation/distributed systems/, sorry.
13:55:14 <fizzie> I remember my chapter had stuff about election in hypercube networks or something very interesting like that.
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13:55:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, if the prof can't motivate himself to read the book, then why should the students?
13:55:50 <fizzie> Well, it was rumoured to be a good book.
13:56:00 <Vorpal> then why wasn't he motivated
13:56:04 <Vorpal> I feel the logic is flawed
13:56:15 <fizzie> Too busy, I'd say, based on who he was.
13:56:40 <fizzie> He used to reply to student question emails at 03am during the Saturday/Sunday night.
13:57:05 <fizzie> A kind of a personality. :p
13:57:22 <Vorpal> I guess you could say that
13:57:26 <fizzie> From the viewpoint of the students, I guess course credits are a powerful motivator too.
13:58:10 <fizzie> A hypercube is a nice shape. You can (obviously) reach everyone in at most log_2(N) hops.
13:58:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, did he get burned out btw from working like that?
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13:58:41 <fizzie> Oh, he's still around. Was the head of the department for some time, too.
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14:31:24 <Vorpal> argh, NFC is badly designed. Why haven't they learnt anything from previous systems...
14:31:47 <Vorpal> MITM is super easy with the right equipment apparently...
14:40:29 <itidus21> Vorpal: (disclaimer: all of my common disclaimers) the lack of indefinite positive feedback in intelligence enables newcomers to succeed and older ones to suffer entropy
14:42:51 <itidus21> like how IBM was able to make lots of computers but they lost to bill gates who was only good for writing basic interpreters
14:44:07 <itidus21> microsoft is more successful than ibm right?
14:44:16 <MDoze> I don't see what that has to do with near-feild communicaiton's vuilerability to man-in-the-middle attacks.
14:44:36 <MDoze> Or if there was any other related conversation before I joined.
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14:46:27 <itidus21> suppose you had a company like IBM in manufacturing and in the space of a few decades a silly little contract or whatever about dos eventually led another company to outgrow you
14:46:38 <MDude> I think IBM got less successfulll than Micrisoft because they allowed all those knockoffs of thier design.
14:47:05 <itidus21> im being extremely arbitrary and avoiding research or reality
14:47:18 <MDude> Intel similarly is making bank, I think.
14:47:26 <Vorpal> also the whole windows vs. OS/2 thing
14:47:58 <MDude> Was OS/2 very backwards compatible?
14:48:12 <itidus21> its like.. decades of success in an industry can be toppled by these trivialities
14:48:15 <MDude> Because that's the main thing WIndows has had for it.
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14:49:24 <Vorpal> MDude, I don't think there was a single reason for OS/2 failing, rather it was a combination of many things
14:49:44 <ais523> hmm, theory: the number of assassination attempts Hitler survived is proof that time travel exists, yet is incapable of changing history
14:49:46 <Vorpal> including some bad business decisions on IBMs part and some really good ones from MS
14:49:56 <ais523> going back in time to kill Hitler is probably one of the most common uses for time machines
14:50:08 <Vorpal> ais523, how many did he survive?
14:51:19 <Vorpal> also I presume you meant hypothesis, not theory
14:51:49 <Vorpal> itidus21, in the information theory sense? Or the physical sense?
14:52:20 <itidus21> Vorpal: not sure. just in the sense that they had to fail eventually
14:52:21 <Vorpal> (and if the latter, how is thermodynamics related to this?)
14:52:33 <Vorpal> itidus21, I don't think that is an existing sense of the word
14:53:09 <itidus21> maybe companies never have to fail
14:53:50 <MDude> IBM is still around, though.
14:54:00 <MDude> And even made that Jeopardy machine.
14:54:28 <Vorpal> pretty sure failing is a result of bad management in most of the time. Also they can recover from it. And there can be external factors (a mining company runs out of ore in the current vein)
14:54:39 <itidus21> ok i think i'm working on the basis that the only way to say something novel is to lie
14:54:44 <Vorpal> so no I don't think a company will inherently fail
14:57:21 <itidus21> so i get bored or restless and open the irc clickable bitmap.
14:57:34 <itidus21> its a bitmap you can click on!
14:58:22 <itidus21> and then, of all possible things i can say everything true has already been said, or is obvious
14:59:10 <itidus21> i start inventing uses for words like entropy
15:00:01 <itidus21> and ridiculous ideas like that there is some law governing when businesses fail
15:00:21 <itidus21> and i use examples of successful businesses to show where businesses have failed
15:00:37 <MDude> Ah, I was curious more about what you meant by indefinite positive feedback on intelligence.
15:01:05 <itidus21> i was meaning the intelligent eventually stop getting more intelligent
15:02:06 <itidus21> but saying this is because of earthly mortality seems to be cheating
15:02:37 <itidus21> maybe a more realistic explanation is that people stagnate
15:02:55 <itidus21> but as i can see, it isn't a general rule
15:03:13 <MDude> It could be a problem of sheer proccessing power, at least partly.
15:03:32 <Vorpal> looking at NFC it is built upon RFID, which is only really interested in reading numbers from tags. Originally security was not an issue (it was used for logistics, identifying shipments and so on in warehouses and terminals and what not). A much larger issue was power usage in the tags. Since it worked well other uses started to appear. Some however turned out to be security sensitive. Oops.
15:03:51 <Vorpal> and then NFC was built on top of RFID... why? no idea
15:04:10 <MDude> Because lazy, I would guess.
15:04:43 <itidus21> maybe it is the fact that money builds itself
15:04:49 <Vorpal> MDude, usages include bluetooth pairing by NFC. Works fine with standard antennas that have a range of centimeters, and that is what you find in phones.
15:05:04 <MDude> A complete lack of idea as to the reason we don't just use reprogrammible RFID tags in our phones for NFC was probably there too.
15:05:08 <Vorpal> MDude, now, if you instead use professional equipment you can get a range of a few meters against such a phone
15:05:27 <itidus21> whereas, on a given day n, in order to become more knowledgable or skilful a person one must exert energy again, be motivated again
15:06:12 <Vorpal> MDude, and the communications are unencrypted. Encryption is up to the application level
15:06:20 <Vorpal> which is again fine for the original usage
15:06:45 <Vorpal> (low power, possibly passive tags for logistics: you want something cheap and simple there. Yep)
15:08:08 <MDude> itidus21: So, to be suepr smart, it would make sense to devote some time into finding ways to get smarter faster?
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15:10:09 <Vorpal> MDude, another early use was identifying cattle. Yeah I guess that is fine with RFID. Then several decades later someone decides to start doing payments with the technology. Oops.
15:10:16 <itidus21> its probably difficult to find motivation eventually
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15:11:10 <Vorpal> itidus21, this is all very interesting, but I don't think it really applies to NFC
15:11:11 <MDude> I guess that what makes evil geniuses so smart, they've always got taking voer the world to look forward to.
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15:11:53 <Taneb> Am I allowed to say I'm well respected in the esoteric programming language community?
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15:12:48 <itidus21> MDude: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_0codWCfcAsc/SlX3Ck35_HI/AAAAAAAAAzc/Qi1tr_mH_3M/s400/pinky_brain_x_22.jpg
15:13:15 <Vorpal> wow, someone made an RFID tag that was 0.05mm x 0.05mm... (Though the range of that one was apparently only a few millimeters)
15:14:22 <Taneb> Vorpal, UCAS, and hence various universities in the UK
15:18:01 <MDude> I'd like to make an RFID tag that uses the bulkiest, most anachronistic components possible that also aren't too expensive.
15:19:32 <Taneb> Vorpal, body that handles university applications in the UK
15:19:56 <Vorpal> Taneb, why would you mention that to them? Isn't the only thing relevant for such applications your previous grades?
15:20:08 <Taneb> Nah, there's loads
15:20:16 <Vorpal> In Sweden at least they only care about your grades
15:20:27 <Taneb> Basically, I'm trying to demonstrate interest in the subject
15:20:36 <Taneb> (the subject being, maths and computer science)
15:21:22 <Vorpal> Taneb, they work out a score between 1 and 20 depending on your grades in the Swedish equiv. of high school. I had 17.5 iirc, which is very good.
15:21:46 <Vorpal> and then they basically use that in a priority queue system
15:21:47 <Taneb> Yes, but seeing as I am neither in Sweden nor applying to a Swedish university, that isn't especially relevant
15:21:59 <Vorpal> Taneb, I'm just surprised every country doesn't do it that way
15:22:15 <Taneb> Pretty much every country does it different
15:22:43 <Vorpal> well I expected the exact details to vary (different scoring algorithms, different ranges and so on) but not the general concept
15:23:12 <Taneb> I believe the Netherlands lets everyone in, and decides a year later
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15:24:20 <jix> copumpkin: since when are you in here?
15:24:22 <Vorpal> (oh and there may of course be specific requirements for different programs at university, like I needed to have at least Mathematics D (I studied up to Mathematics E, which is as far as it goes))
15:24:44 <copumpkin> jix: I used to be in here a lot, and then forgot to rejoin when I redid my IRC client
15:24:53 <copumpkin> and now I've started joining again
15:26:05 <jix> now I wonder if we've met here before without me realizing
15:27:16 <Taneb> So, can I say I'm well respected in the esoteric programming community?
15:30:57 -!- Guest34050 has changed nick to oklopol.
15:31:10 <oklopol> why does nnscript insist on renaming me guest
15:31:43 <oklopol> perhaps i need to suggest some alternatives
15:31:44 -!- oklopol has changed nick to oklofok.
15:31:51 -!- oklofok has changed nick to oklodol.
15:31:54 <MDude> I think it would make more sense to say your work on esoteric languages is generally admired in the community.
15:32:08 <MDude> Since you could be respected on a personal level witohut really making anything.
15:32:16 -!- oklodol has changed nick to okloblock.
15:32:54 <okloblock> i only respect him on a personal level, since i don't remember what his work is.
15:33:09 -!- okloblock has changed nick to oklopol.
15:34:29 <Taneb> Nandypants, Numberwang, MIBBLLII, Fueue, Brook, Constatinople, Luigi, Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download
15:34:31 <jix> copumpkin: ah no, according to public logs you joined years after I was active a lot here
15:35:01 <Taneb> I only joined last year :(
15:36:39 <MDude> You joined before I did, and thus "Forever ago".
15:36:42 <jix> copumpkin: I use them from time to time to transfer value
15:37:02 <Vorpal> didn't bitcoin drop in value some time back
15:37:14 <jix> but not much beyond that... but for that they do their job pretty well
15:37:23 <copumpkin> it got inflated way beyond what was reasonable
15:38:58 <MDude> Taneb: Forever apparently being less than a month, according to the edit logs of our user pages.
15:39:49 <zzo38> Should LLVM have an instruction to test addition/subtraction overflow?
15:40:34 <Taneb> zzo38, are you on the LLVM development committee?
15:40:56 <kmc> zzo38 is on the everything committee
15:45:02 <Vorpal> zzo38, isn't the usual solution that the CPU sets a flag in some flag register for that?
15:45:25 <Vorpal> hm I wonder how that works on VLIW architectures... One flag register per concurrent instruction?
15:45:42 <zzo38> No I am not on the LLVM development committee.
15:46:03 <Vorpal> zzo38, then would your opinion on this matter? It wouldn't affect LLVM development
15:46:03 <zzo38> Vorpal: Yes that is what I am thinking, usually the CPU sets a flag for it, but LLVM has no instruction to test that flag
15:46:55 <zzo38> Perhaps someone who is on LLVM can suggest it to them
15:47:21 <jix> in theory a backend could detect the instrucion sequence that tests for overflows and produce code that uses the flags
15:48:56 <zzo38> jix: Yes, like that, I mean
15:50:32 <zzo38> I mean there might be instructions "tsof" (test signed overflow) and "tuof" (test unsigned overflow) and then it points to an addition or subtraction instruction which has already been executed, and the result of this instruction will be of type i1
15:50:35 * itidus21 looks at the recent changes, sees an optimized set of images, and dazzled by the existence of enterbrainfuck
15:51:20 <jix> zzo38: no I mean just using detecting the usual workarounds you do in C ((a + b) < b) for unsigned add for example and detecting the resulting instruction sequence
15:51:43 <jix> that would not require a change to the llvm instruction set
15:51:59 <Vorpal> what does LLVM currently do for that bit of code?
15:52:31 <zzo38> At least to me, I have found cases where I want to explicitly specify overflow test instruction
15:53:17 <zzo38> The optimizer could do the conversion from ((a + b) < b) to the tsof and tuof instructions
15:53:36 <Vorpal> itidus21, "enterbrainfuck"?
15:53:40 <Vorpal> I don't see that on the wiki
15:53:56 <itidus21> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:FireFly/Enterbrainfuck
15:54:07 <fizzie> zzo38: It already has the llvm.uadd.with.overflow.i32 kind of intrinsics which "return" the result and an i1 about the overflow.
15:54:12 <jix> zzo38: but if you keep the addition and comparision instructions (maybe with an annotation to mark them as belonging together (if llvm does support this)) you wouldn't break existing passes
15:54:43 <itidus21> enterbrain is a company that makes rpgmaker products. rpgmaker products contain a ruby scripting language.
15:56:18 <itidus21> this is the kind of nonsense i would come up with, but far more intelligent than anything i would come up with
15:56:20 <Vorpal> itidus21, I once wrote a small GOL simulation in the RPG blades of avernum (btw, the avernum series is amazing). I think it may only run on classical PPC Mac OS
15:56:35 <Vorpal> used floor tiles as the data storage
15:56:56 <Taneb> That's it, I'm gonna make a brainfuck interpreter in Ren'Py
15:57:14 <Vorpal> btw I might fire up my old ibook and see if I still have that thing around
15:57:15 <Taneb> Visual novel creator with Python back-end
15:57:25 <Vorpal> however, how did you take screenshots on macs? I don't remember
15:57:42 <Vorpal> also... I don't currently have any surface to put the thing on
15:57:56 <Taneb> And I don't know how to use Ren'Py
15:58:21 <Vorpal> anyway the size of it was limited due to the number of instructions you could execute per script event
15:58:29 <itidus21> i abanoned this ridiculous thing, but this is a picture i made the other day where i advocate using graphic tiles as symbols http://oi50.tinypic.com/29z9egm.jpg
15:58:30 <Vorpal> so iirc it was like a 30x30 GOL world
15:59:41 <itidus21> i think the super mario bros tiles are so pretty to look at. maybe it's just the association with the games
16:03:02 <itidus21> and having destroyed the topic with my greedy post, i will back away
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16:04:59 <zzo38> In Haskell (I have discussed this in #haskell channel yesterday), I have thought of (forall z. c z => (x -> z) -> z) and (forall z. c z => (z -> x, z)). The first one is right and the second one is left. Here I am using the methods and the mathematical laws of the class c.
16:06:20 <zzo38> Perhaps the names can be ClassCodensity for the right version and ClassDensity for the left version.
16:07:38 <zzo38> Now for ClassCodensity, depending on the methods and laws of c: If it is a monoid, you get a list. If it is a semigroup, you get a non-empty list. If it is a commutative idempotent monoid, I think you get a set.
16:08:11 <Taneb> First class classes?
16:08:56 <zzo38> It is possible using constraint kind, although it can be done even without constraint kind.
16:09:36 <zzo38> For ClassDensity, if c is Copeanoid then I would think you get a non-empty list comonad.
16:10:46 <Taneb> class Class (c :: * -> *)
16:11:32 <Taneb> data Monoid' :: Monoid m => m -> Monoid' m
16:11:43 <Taneb> I don't even know where I'm going with this
16:11:51 <zzo38> You could even have something like this: data Monoid_ x where { Monoid_ :: Monoid x => Monoid_ x; }; data Functor_ x where { Functor_ :: Functor x => Functor_ x; };
16:12:07 <zzo38> Now the (,) for constraints and the (,) for types is the same one
16:12:58 <coppro> I need to learn agda again
16:13:07 <coppro> since apparently I'm giving a 45 minute talk on it
16:14:14 <olsner> not knowing agda should count as a good reason not to give a talk on it
16:14:35 <zzo38> data Restrict c x = Restrict { classOfRestrict :: !(c x), getRestrict :: x };
16:14:42 <olsner> but I guess you might not have been thinking right
16:17:37 <zzo38> Now can it be done like this? ClassCodensity Monoid = Codensity (Restrict Monoid_) I am unsure, I haven't tried
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16:27:30 <zzo38> It appears not to work so well.
16:29:53 <zzo38> It works if you make up the type separately
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17:41:46 <MDude> http://images.4chan.org/diy/src/1340967259708.gif
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18:13:29 <fizzie> Everyone was co-py-pasting / those kids were fast as lightning.
18:14:21 <itidus21> i wrote a program in BytePusher..
18:14:51 <itidus21> when it really comes down to it i can't deny that it allows for some extremely small programs
18:14:56 <fizzie> In fact it was a little bit frightening / but they ^v'd with expert timing.
18:15:26 <olsner> how do you pronounce ^v'd?
18:15:56 <fizzie> I don't know, but "pasted" didn't really flow either.
18:17:03 <itidus21> and also the fact it's easy to program it directly into a hex editor
18:21:31 <fizzie> There's a Finnish translation that goes approximately "who knows the feared Kung-Fu / can beat all the obstacles / you can break even a stone fence / everyone respects you".
18:21:57 <olsner> sounds like a fairly good translation
18:22:14 <olsner> not that anyone cares what the song's text is about
18:24:58 <fizzie> Also other such gems. "I shouted: 'get in the queue' / the first fell down by my kick / soon the others each in their turn / were examining the ground / after I swinged [fists] a bit more / the rest fled running".
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18:26:20 <itidus21> it's fun seeing my native language[english] being hacked by translators
18:27:05 <itidus21> i can't really explain what it's like to only know english
18:27:29 <olsner> how does it feel? please explain
18:27:35 <zzo38> I think LLVM has no unions, isn't it?
18:28:33 <itidus21> olsner: well, what some would call bad translations, is like seeing the language being used in new and fun ways
18:28:36 <zzo38> Can you make a structure with zero-length arrays and access them as if it were a union, can it work without the optimization messing it up?
18:28:41 <itidus21> like that craze about all your base are belong to us
18:28:53 <olsner> if LLVM has casts, unions could be a source language-only thing
18:29:36 <olsner> and I'm pretty sure it does have casts, but no idea how it treats aliasing
18:29:44 <zzo38> LLVM does have casts but will any optimization or anything allow it to cause problems?
18:29:49 <itidus21> it's not just an act of mockery. theres a secret joy in witnessing so called engrish
18:29:56 <zzo38> And, yes, aliasing too
18:31:34 <Taneb> Advert for Snickers: people get annoyed when they're hungry, so eat, I guess?
18:31:39 <itidus21> it's like, as if you were to move to a new country where everyone spoke english, except that they all spoke it in a different way
18:32:53 <itidus21> nah its 4:30 am here.. i think i'm just flipping out
18:34:04 <itidus21> zzo38: i wrote a bytepusher program
18:35:05 <zzo38> itidus21: In what programming language did you write it in? If it is written in a text format programming language, post it in the wiki.
18:35:16 <zzo38> (Otherwise, just post the binaries.)
18:35:53 <itidus21> not sure what the best way to post a binary is..
18:36:08 <itidus21> its very short though, like trivial
18:36:29 <fizzie> LLVM had an union type earlier, but indeed the latest language reference doc no longer does. Maybe they have a documented alternative somewhere.
18:37:33 <zzo38> itidus21: One way is to host it in your own computer. Another way is to use base-64 or uuencode or something like that.
18:37:48 <olsner> http://llvm.org/docs/LangRef.html#pointeraliasing
18:38:21 <zzo38> itidus21: One way is to send it to my computer (I will give details on private message) and I will then host it
18:40:44 <fizzie> 2.8 release notes: "The LLVM IR 'Union' feature was removed. While this is a desirable feature for LLVM IR to support, the existing implementation was half baked and barely useful. We'd really like anyone interested to resurrect the work and finish it for a future release." Apparently no-one did.
18:41:40 <fizzie> But if they say type-based aliasing is not done on arbitrary IR code, I guess casts are safe.
18:41:58 <itidus21> zzo38: it's this.. i dunno if wikisend.com is safe or not.. im putting blind faith in it.. the program itself is only 27 bytes and does very little http://wikisend.com/download/615140/test.BytePusher
18:42:28 <zzo38> itidus21: Just post the hex on esolang wiki if it is that short.
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18:43:36 <itidus21> zzo38: well my main reason for mentioning it is i noticed you worked on bytepusher stuff. its not that the actual program has any value
18:44:21 <zzo38> itidus21: Yes I would think a short program such as that would do nothing useful, but if you want to post it anyways, if it is that short you can just post the hex
18:46:05 <oerjan> <fizzie> Don't you mean "add to the Visual SourceSafe library"? <-- i think that's the one i saw mentioned as "the only VCS that is worse than not having any"
18:46:20 <fizzie> oerjan: It's famously bad, yes.
18:46:23 <oerjan> i may have mentioned this before
18:46:48 <itidus21> zzo38: i just wanted to say that i looked at bytepusher really :D
18:46:48 <olsner> how can anyone ever "mean" to add something to the VSS library?
18:47:31 <itidus21> i had my doubts about it when i first looked on the wiki but its the first time ive written a program in a hex editor
18:47:50 <Vorpal> I actually met someone who defended VSS (he didn't claim it was perfect, just not as bad as people made it out to be). Strange thing is he wasn't an idiot in most other respects
18:48:41 <kmc> i find that when everyone hates a given technology without using it
18:48:47 <kmc> and i start using it
18:48:50 <kmc> it's not as bad as everyone says
18:48:53 <zzo38> itidus21: OK. Other programs were generated using C programs and Python programs, and one program I wrote in the PUSHEM assembler.
18:49:06 <olsner> Vorpal: he might have been sarcastic, and you're the fool
18:49:41 <fizzie> Vorpal: I (knowingly) know only one VSS user, and they said it was quite bad. But I suppose they must've improved some things about it. At least I heard they added a client/server model. (Before that, all clients directly manipulated the repository over a SMB share.)
18:49:48 <Vorpal> olsner, he seemed honest, and the rest of the people nearby were equally fooled in that case.
18:49:57 <itidus21> zzo38: all it really does is plot a red pixel (step 1), then it plots a second pixel next to it based on reading the first keyboard byte as a colour(color)
18:50:13 <Vorpal> fizzie, proper locking for that model sounds like hell
18:50:17 <itidus21> i was really impressed that you can do all that in 27 bytes
18:50:28 <olsner> I have actually seen VSS in use (as in, seen the screen while someone was using it)
18:50:38 <itidus21> i don't think the guy who made it really knows what to do with it
18:50:39 <Vorpal> olsner, okay, what did it look like?
18:50:54 <fizzie> Vorpal: Rumour has it that the dtabases had a habit of going bad often. Though I think there was a database unfucker tool too.
18:50:57 <olsner> I don't really remember that well, but some guy was building a custom UI for it in VB
18:51:56 <fizzie> Today's piece of (partially unverified) trivia: win32 ABI only guarantees 4-byte stack alignment upon function entry, but if you have a double-precision float variable that goes on the stack, (at least some versions of) MSVC will opt to dynamically align stack to 8 with an and esp, 0xfffffff8 in the epilogue, for performance reasons.
18:52:15 <olsner> was the client/server thing ever in VSS though, or is that new for team thingy?
18:52:26 <fizzie> olsner: In VSS, I believe.
18:52:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, wait, what is so special about that instruction?
18:53:16 <Vorpal> seems like a reasonable way as long as the stack grows down (which it does)
18:53:24 <fizzie> "Starting with VSS 2005, Microsoft has added a client–server mode. In this mode, clients do not need write access to a SMB share where they can potentially damage the SS database."
18:53:45 <olsner> Vorpal: the special part is the alignment, not the instruction being used, I think
18:53:47 <fizzie> Vorpal: There's nothing special about it. It is reasonable.
18:54:06 <Vorpal> the alignment is kind of annoying though
18:54:15 <fizzie> I'm not sure the alignment is terribly special either. It was a random useless fact, is all.
18:54:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, what about 64-bit windows?
18:54:25 <fizzie> Well, at least mostly useless.
18:54:30 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_areyoualive: 8.3
18:54:53 <olsner> Vorpal: always 8-byte aligned, you can't push other quantities of bytes in long mode
18:54:56 <fizzie> Vorpal: That has bigger stack alignment by default. Though I don't recall if it's 8 or even 16.
18:55:19 <olsner> I should say *at least* 8-byte
18:55:42 <fizzie> olsner: I actually believe you can push two. Not four, though.
18:55:44 <itidus21> zzo38: there is 1 problem i can see with it though.
18:55:59 <fizzie> (Not that anyone would push two.)
18:56:05 <zzo38> itidus21: What problem?
18:56:17 <quintopia> !bfjoust brachiation >->(-)*5(>+)*4(>[(<)*3(+)*7<<(+[<{}>(-)*50<(-)*50<(-)*15>>(>--[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*9([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%14[-]][+][-])*27](+)*50)*3 (>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*9([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%14[-]][+][-])*27](-)*50)*2(>)*7 (>[(-)*9([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%14[-]][+][-])*22])%28]++)*22>(-)*115[-][+][-]
18:56:20 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_brachiation: 41.7
18:56:21 <olsner> fizzie: iirc a smaller immediate or memory operand gets zero-expanded to 64-bit
18:56:33 <olsner> and for registers, only 64-bit ones are allowed
18:57:21 <quintopia> !bfjoust brachiation >->(-)*5(>)*4(>[(<)*3(+)*7<<(+[<{}>(-)*50<(-)*50<(-)*10>>(>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](+)*50)*3 (>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](-)*50)*2(>)*7 (>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*22])%28]++)*22>(-)*115[-][+][-]
18:57:24 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_brachiation: 47.9
18:57:25 <itidus21> he should have made the 1 byte pixelmap address into 3 bytes.. and added a large buffer onto the end of the memory to catch it
19:00:05 <fizzie> olsner: The pseudo in Intel's manual goes: IF in 64-bit mode THEN [ IF operand size = 64 THEN [ RSP <- RSP - 8; Memory[RSP] <- Temp; (* Push quadword *) ] ELSE [ RSP <- RSP - 2; Memory[RSP] <- TEMP; (* Push word *) ] ].
19:00:58 <olsner> obviously it's wrong and I'm right!
19:01:14 <itidus21> or at least added a byte to toggle between 1 and 3 byte addressing of where the map of pixels begins
19:01:24 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
19:01:32 <itidus21> maybe it was a design decision. after all it's his thing not mine.
19:01:32 <fizzie> But what is true is you can't push a dword, and if you use PUSH imm32, it zero-extends to eight bytes.
19:01:34 -!- pikhq has joined.
19:01:40 <itidus21> or maybe just didn't occur to him
19:01:49 <olsner> are there byte-size pushes?
19:02:11 <Vorpal> <olsner> Vorpal: always 8-byte aligned, you can't push other quantities of bytes in long mode <-- oh okay
19:02:23 <olsner> Vorpal: it's being debated as you speak though
19:02:38 <fizzie> Well, I mean, there's PUSH imm8, but I think it's always pushed at least the 16 bits.
19:02:40 <Vorpal> olsner, I thought you could puss eax and such sizes of registers still?
19:03:18 <Vorpal> hm anyway iirc modern compilers (gcc at least) tend to use mov relative %rsp rather than push or pop
19:03:23 <Vorpal> that way you could do it
19:03:32 <olsner> fizzie: well, PUSH imm8 and PUSH reg8 is what I was thinking about, the question is which ones exist and what they do
19:03:39 <Vorpal> such as adding your whole stack frame size on entry of the function
19:03:46 <fizzie> olsner: There's no PUSH r8, just imm8.
19:03:58 <fizzie> olsner: And "If the source operand is an immediate and its size is less than the operand size,
19:04:01 <fizzie> a sign-extended value is pushed on the stack. If the source operand is a
19:04:04 <fizzie> segment register (16 bits) and the operand size is greater than 16 bits, a zero-
19:04:07 <fizzie> extended value is pushed on the stack.
19:04:14 <fizzie> (The operand size is listed to be 16, 32 or 64.)
19:04:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, you can do something like ADD %rsp,10 followed by MOV %rsp+2,%eax I think? (Not sure about the asm syntax for that, haven't been doing x86 asm for ages)
19:04:48 <fizzie> (Pasting from the Intel PDF, from Evince, is just lousy with newlines.)
19:05:07 <fizzie> You can certainly perform a "one-byte push" by just dec rsp.
19:05:08 <Vorpal> also I meant SUB not ADD
19:05:26 <fizzie> If you don't mind breaking most ABIs.
19:06:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, well, I can't help notice that gcc does not compile code to use PUSH and POP, rather it substracts the size of the stack frame from %rsp on function entry and then does mov relative %rsp
19:06:31 <Vorpal> so then you could easily have say 2 4-byte values pushed
19:06:41 <Vorpal> and just increment the stack frame by 8 rather than 2*8
19:06:58 <olsner> and a 32-bit operand size means zero-extending to 64-bit and pushing that? then there's at least two different ways to push a segment register zero-extended as 8 bytes?
19:07:12 <olsner> but pushing immediates is silly
19:07:35 <fizzie> Actually I suppose imm32 would be sign-extended to 64, I just misread that on the first pass.
19:07:36 <Vorpal> olsner, hm does it zero extend 16-bit registers too?
19:07:50 <zzo38> They should use PUSH and POP if their effect matches what need to be done
19:07:51 <olsner> Vorpal: you can zero-extend anything you want?
19:08:07 <zzo38> Also use AAA and so on if those work for the program done too
19:08:16 <Vorpal> olsner, well obviously, I meant if you have garbage in a register and do mov %ax,whatever
19:08:24 <olsner> AAA and some other old crap is not available in long mode
19:08:34 <Vorpal> olsner, I know mov %eax,whatever will zero the upper 32 bits of %rax
19:08:41 <kmc> but how will i do 64-bit BCD math?!?!?
19:08:41 <zzo38> olsner: Well, it would not compile those instructions in long mode, tghen.
19:08:56 <fizzie> Vorpal: That's kind of weird that you put the arguments the Intel way but add AT&T prefix %s.
19:09:02 <olsner> Vorpal: no, word and byte-size operations work as before on the lower bits preserving the higher bits
19:09:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, I like to be unusual!
19:09:33 <kmc> afaik the rationale for zero-extending 32-bit loads is that you can use 32-bit pointers for the first 4GB of memory
19:09:38 <olsner> Vorpal: also, you now have lower-byte/word registers for di, si, sp, bp that didn't use to have them
19:09:47 <Vorpal> olsner, ah, so would mov %ax,whatever zero the upper 32 bit but leave the bits between that and the lower 16 bits as they were before?
19:10:05 <olsner> Vorpal: no, it leaves all 48 upper bits unaffected
19:10:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, seriously though I haven't been doing x86 asm for ages.
19:10:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, mostly AVR recently. And that is recently as in half a year ago
19:10:26 <zzo38> There is also AAM which allows you to set what base you want, instead of always base ten; AAD also does that; you can use these for some purpose other than BCD arithmetic
19:10:54 <fizzie> Anyway, the x86-64 "Unix ABI" requires 16-byte stack alignment; don't know about x64 Windows. (And yes, as long as you have the alignment right the bytes inside could of course form smaller objects.)
19:11:19 <Vorpal> fizzie, as long as you don't use PUSH or POP for them that is
19:11:44 <fizzie> Well, if you manually pack them to a register. And I still maintain you can do the 2-byte push in long mode.
19:11:55 <fizzie> So four times push ax should be okay.
19:12:06 <Vorpal> what about alignment of x87 floating point on 32-bit windows? That is 80 bytes isn't it? What alignment does that need?
19:12:25 <kmc> er 80 bits?
19:12:33 <kmc> iirc the 80 bit format is only used internally
19:12:38 <kmc> in FPU registers
19:12:43 <fizzie> You *can* store them, though.
19:12:46 <Vorpal> so what does long double then use when written to memory?
19:12:55 <zzo38> "The AAD instruction sets the value in the AL register to (AL + (10 * AH)), and then clears the AH register to 00H." (The number ten in there can be changed to an eight-bit immediate value)
19:13:10 <fizzie> GCC writes the 80-bit long doubles as 12-byte or 16-byte objects depending on a flag.
19:13:32 <Vorpal> zzo38, is that a BCD instruction?
19:13:40 <pikhq> Isn't long double just a double on x86-64?
19:13:44 <olsner> anyway, the fun thing with the new lower-byte registers is that with the 64-bit operand prefix, ah, bh, ch, dh change meaning to spl, bpl, sil, dil
19:13:44 <pikhq> (because fuck x87)
19:13:47 <fizzie> -m96bit-long-double and -m128bit-long-double.
19:13:58 <Vorpal> pikhq, 100% sure that isn't so. I got different results last time I checked
19:14:12 <pikhq> Vorpal: Well then.
19:14:15 <zzo38> Vorpal: It is the command for ASCII adjust before division, so yes it is meant to be a BCD instruction, although it has other uses too.
19:14:25 <Vorpal> pikhq, at least gcc compiled my use of long double into x87 instructions on 64-bit x86 Linux
19:14:41 <pikhq> Guess it is, then.
19:14:57 <olsner> I somehow got the idea that x87 was entirely unavailable in long mode
19:14:59 <Vorpal> pikhq, anyway my question concerned alignment of long double on the 32-bit windows stack
19:15:05 <zzo38> The AAM instruction does the reverse operation of AAD; it does division and modulo by immediate.
19:15:14 <pikhq> olsner: x87 is *entirely* available in long mode.
19:15:18 <fizzie> Vorpal: I'm thinking 16 bits.
19:15:26 <pikhq> olsner: And worse still, necessary for MMX to work.
19:15:43 <pikhq> (admittedly, you're not *that* likely to use it. Still.)
19:15:51 <fizzie> Vorpal: I mean, it could be 12, but they already align doubles to 8 for performance, so...
19:16:01 <fizzie> GCC has the fanciest -mfpmath=both. "Attempt to utilize both instruction sets at once. This effectively doubles the amount of available registers, and on chips with separate execution units for 387 and SSE the execution resources too. Use this option with care, as it is still experimental, because the GCC register allocator does not model separate functional units well, resulting in unstable ...
19:16:02 <Vorpal> pikhq, I actually used it for one thing. Trying to remember what it was...
19:16:12 <olsner> pikhq: oh, because of that mmx/fpu registers sharing registers thing?
19:16:29 <Vorpal> pikhq, does anyone use MMX on 64-bit though?
19:16:33 <Vorpal> I thought it was all SSE
19:17:18 <olsner> pikhq: that's fairly horrible
19:17:41 <pikhq> Vorpal: Because of SSE2, in practice SSE is an extension to MMX.
19:17:50 <Vorpal> pikhq, different register set though
19:17:54 <pikhq> (some of the SSE2 opcodes are MMX opcodes extended to work on XMM registers)
19:18:07 <Vorpal> pikhq, no need to support the legacy registers in theory
19:18:11 <zzo38> I think the AAM and AAD instructions are useful even if you do not use BCD arithmetic.
19:18:22 <pikhq> Yes, but x86_64 was designed to be a *minimal* change to x86.
19:18:29 <Vorpal> zzo38, IIRC they are gone on 64-bit x86
19:18:43 <Vorpal> zzo38, and the opcodes converted into new prefixes or something
19:18:53 <zzo38> Vorpal: Yes, but I would think they would still work if not in 64-bit mode
19:18:58 <Vorpal> pikhq, yet they dropped vm86
19:19:07 <pikhq> Vorpal: That's actually hard to do.
19:19:20 <olsner> actually, I think the BCD opcodes were left unassigned, just removed
19:19:29 <pikhq> If it was less work to keep something than remove it, they kept it.
19:19:35 <Vorpal> pikhq, the CPU still has to be able to do that when running a 32-bit OS though
19:19:41 <Vorpal> so the functionality is still there
19:19:58 <olsner> all one-byte inc (and dec?) opcodes got reassigned to prefix duty, but those were already redundant with other encodings for those isntructions
19:20:28 <Vorpal> olsner, what did they do with AAM and AAD then?
19:20:37 <pikhq> Vorpal: Yes, but to get it working under x86_64 you need to get segmentation working under x86_64.
19:21:03 <pikhq> VM86 is mostly just sticking segmentation on top of paging.
19:21:12 <Vorpal> pikhq, but uh doesn't 64-bit still have some segment registers? IIRC one is used for something still
19:21:28 <Vorpal> fs relative addressing iirc?
19:21:29 <kmc> you can still set a base on %fs and %gs
19:21:33 <kmc> but the limits are not checked
19:21:40 <pikhq> Vorpal: Yes, but those are vestigial.
19:21:41 <fizzie> And the bases are set by writing some MSRs.
19:21:44 <kmc> cs, ds, es, ss are all stuck to 0 base
19:21:48 <Vorpal> kmc, what were those bases used for?
19:21:49 <olsner> more fun stuff: 0x90 is XCHG eax,eax but is used everywhere as NOP - but according to the zero-extending 32-bit stuff that instruction should no longer be a no-op in long mode
19:21:56 <Vorpal> thread local storage iirc?
19:22:02 <kmc> Vorpal: depends on the OS and library
19:22:29 <Vorpal> pretty sure %fs was used for TLS
19:22:45 <pikhq> Vorpal: Amusingly, you can still run 16-bit code when in long mode.
19:22:51 <olsner> so, they redefined it to NOP, and to do an actual XCHG eax,eax you'll need to use another (existing redundant) encoding
19:22:54 <Vorpal> <olsner> more fun stuff: 0x90 is XCHG eax,eax but is used everywhere as NOP - but according to the zero-extending 32-bit stuff that instruction should no longer be a no-op in long mode <-- they special cased it though
19:23:04 <pikhq> 16-bit protected mode code just *barely* works.
19:23:20 <pikhq> I don't know, I just know WINE does it.
19:23:26 <kmc> Vorpal: %fs is used for TLS and stack-protector canary
19:23:41 <kmc> i don't know if %gs is commonly used by anything in userspace
19:23:46 <pikhq> How else do you think it does Win16 on x86_64? :)
19:23:47 <Vorpal> pikhq, I'm kind of torn on if I want to check out the source to figure it out or if it would be too horrible
19:23:55 <Vorpal> pikhq, it does that? nice
19:24:00 <kmc> it's used by kernels thanks to the SWAPGS instruction
19:24:03 <kmc> http://www.x86-64.org/pipermail/discuss/2000-October/001009.html
19:24:17 <Vorpal> kmc, %fs is used for two things? huh
19:24:36 <olsner> really, %fs is used for whatever you want to use it for :)
19:24:39 <kmc> the stack protector canary value lives within the TLS block
19:24:40 <zzo38> If things like that stop working entirely in a 64-bit operating system, you could still either run those programs in an emulator or dual-boot to another operating system.
19:24:56 <pikhq> zzo38: Thus DOSbox.
19:25:07 <kmc> i mean, the %fs base points to a libc internal structure, a different one per thread
19:25:12 <kmc> which contains various stuff like the canary value
19:25:20 <kmc> and also contains pointers to reach the user-visible TLS variables
19:25:23 <Vorpal> pikhq, it uses vm86 afaik
19:25:29 <pikhq> Vorpal: dosemu now has an 8086 emulator, because of x86_64.
19:25:32 <fizzie> GS is used for TLS and a pointer to some kernel data structure on Windows. Not sure what, if anything, they do with FS. (They used to have FS pointing at those, I also don't know why they bothered swapping that for x64.)
19:26:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, well the kernel one is easy to understand given the SWAPGS instruction
19:26:35 <kmc> hm so in long mode, SYSCALL does not load %ss:%rsp?
19:26:49 <kmc> "When using SYSCALL to implement system calls, no kernel stack exists at the OS entry point."
19:27:03 <kmc> but i'm pretty sure that's not true in 32-bit mode
19:27:05 <kmc> Vorpal: stack segment
19:27:09 <kmc> I guess it is irrelevant in long mode
19:27:19 <olsner> swapgs is pretty hard to work with, easy to swap the wrong number of times and end up with kernel code using a gs that was set by user space
19:28:04 <olsner> I think ss gets loaded with a null segment, rsp is iirc unchanged and you have to load it if you want a stack in the kernel
19:28:08 <Vorpal> what happens when a 32-bit program running under a 64-bit OS does a SYSCALL?
19:28:29 <olsner> interrupts will also give you this ss is a null segment state, but for some reason you can still access it there
19:28:46 <Vorpal> <olsner> swapgs is pretty hard to work with, easy to swap the wrong number of times and end up with kernel code using a gs that was set by user space <-- oh? Wouldn't you just execute it once after entering kernel mode?
19:29:20 <kmc> Vorpal: and once on leaving...
19:29:34 <kmc> and you have to make sure you got every exit path
19:29:40 <Vorpal> but if you have clearly defined entry and exit points that shouldn't be an issue
19:30:03 <Vorpal> kmc, that is just a question about proper design though
19:30:06 <kmc> hm I'm wrong, it looks like SYSCALL doesn't load the stack pointer even in 32-bit mode
19:30:11 <kmc> the instruction existed before amd64, you see
19:30:30 <kmc> SYSENTER does load the stack pointer from a MSR, but doesn't save the instruction pointer
19:30:33 <kmc> what a country
19:30:48 <Vorpal> x86, what did you expect?
19:31:15 <kmc> well they were invented by competing companies too
19:31:24 <kmc> it's a bit like the NYC subway system
19:31:36 <kmc> which was built by three competing entities
19:31:45 <kmc> and then gradually unified
19:31:47 <olsner> the part of the segments stuff that got left over in long mode is quite silly, you have stuff like syscall requiring a specific set (two sets, for 32-bit back-compat) of segment descriptor in the descriptor table that should look a certain way
19:32:38 <olsner> but still most of the information is ignored and it just loads default values (like, at best it checks that you put the only allowed values in there)
19:33:37 <itidus21> zzo38: quick comment offtopic, it has occured to me that the reason for not scrolling is that it throws out the advantage of having ZZYYXX addresses
19:34:33 <itidus21> but there is a way around this.. if there was a single XX0000 space where writing or reading it referenced the pixelmap
19:35:46 <Vorpal> olsner, AVR is quite clean, except the GCC ABI for it makes no sense. Like hardware integer division puts part of the result in a fixed register (%r0 iirc), which is callee-saved in the GCC ABI. There are caller saved registers (%r24-%r27 iirc), a better mapping would have been to make %r0 a caller saved register.
19:36:08 <Vorpal> Since most code could then just avoid using it, thus avoiding saving and restoring it at all
19:36:54 <Vorpal> also there was left shift and right shift on the model I worked with, but only one step at a time.
19:37:12 <kmc> AVR chips are quite fun
19:37:23 <pikhq> Vorpal: Betcha "love" how x86 Linux has __kernel_vsyscall.
19:37:24 <fizzie> Hey, I have another piece of trivia that I recently came across again. Z80 has the usual arithmetic left shift (SLA, shifts zeroes in), arithmetic right shift (SRA, duplicates the sign bit) and logical right shift (SRL, shifts zeroes in again) instructions. *But*, if you look at the opcodes, there's a hole in where you'd logically have SLL, the logical left shift. And if you go and use it, ...
19:37:30 <fizzie> ... turns out it's actually one of the undocumented instructions; it's a left shift, but it shifts 1 bits in. At least one assembler still calls it SLL, though.
19:37:34 <Vorpal> pikhq, is that related to the vdso?
19:37:46 <kmc> i don't have much opinion about the AVR ISA, but the chips have neat peripherals
19:37:54 <kmc> i guess all microcontrollers do, but this is the one i know best
19:38:00 <Vorpal> pikhq, right, I know about it then. To select SYSENTER/SYSCALL/INT
19:38:02 <pikhq> It's the generic system call function in x86's VDSO.
19:38:11 <kmc> wait, hold on
19:38:17 <kmc> vsyscall means something different
19:38:23 <kmc> at least in some contexts,
19:38:24 <zzo38> I made up a 7-bit instruction set, where addresses are 14-bits
19:38:36 <kmc> vsyscall means the "system calls" that actuall execute in userspace, like gettimeofday
19:38:49 <pikhq> kmc: Yes, but those don't go through __kernel_vsyscall at all.
19:39:01 <Vorpal> kmc, they are in the same sort of general area of memory iirc
19:39:05 <kmc> yeah... I'm not surprised they are inconsistent with terminology
19:39:06 <olsner> fizzie: but arithmetic/logic doesn't make sense for left shifts
19:39:12 <Vorpal> and they are done with vdso rather than vsyscall these days iirc
19:39:18 <Vorpal> which iirc is slightly different
19:39:21 <kmc> in current systems they are both in the vdso, afaik
19:39:22 <pikhq> __kernel_vsyscall does a *real* system call.
19:39:28 <Vorpal> and only matters on 64-bit
19:39:34 <zzo38> GCC can compile to MMIX; when will they make LLVM compile to MMIX?
19:39:36 <pikhq> You actually have to special-case the userspace-only ones.
19:39:43 <kmc> Vorpal: what only matters on 64-bit?
19:39:54 <Vorpal> 7fffbbeb0000-7fffbbeb1000 r-xp 00000000 00:00 0 [vdso]
19:39:55 <Vorpal> ffffffffff600000-ffffffffff601000 r-xp 00000000 00:00 0 [vsyscall]
19:39:59 <pikhq> Vorpal: VDSO is on all Linux archs.
19:40:00 <Vorpal> from /proc/self/maps on 64-bit
19:40:04 <fizzie> olsner: Yes, but since the other three are called what they are, it kind of induces the name "logical left shift".
19:40:07 <kmc> that last page is legacy though
19:40:10 <zzo38> In addition, can they make LLVM compile to Glulx?
19:40:12 <Vorpal> vsyscall is like a deprecated alternative to vdso yes
19:40:28 <Vorpal> kmc, and iirc only 64-bit had vsyscall as opposed to the vdso
19:40:34 <shachaf> I'm pretty sure when glibc does a syscall it doesn't go through either of those.
19:40:34 <Vorpal> unless I completely misremember
19:40:45 <Vorpal> no 32-bit cat around to check with alas
19:40:46 <kmc> shachaf: on amd64? yeah, it uses the SYSCALL instruction
19:40:48 <shachaf> It just uses a "syscall" instruction.
19:40:56 <olsner> vdso is for the userspace-implemented stuff (plus syscalls), and vsyscall is only for the thing that selects the best way of doing syscalls?
19:41:10 <pikhq> shachaf: Uh, *surely* it goes through VDSO for gettimeofday et al.
19:41:16 <pikhq> olsner: Basically.
19:41:21 <Vorpal> olsner, vsyscall contains a userspace gettimeofday (legacy) iirc. While vdso contain the current user space one
19:41:30 <Vorpal> iirc vsyscall didn't scale and was a horrible hack
19:41:38 <kmc> these days vsyscall doesn't contain the legacy gettimeofday, it just contains code to make a "real" gettimeofday syscall
19:41:40 <Vorpal> but removing it would break statically linked applications
19:41:41 <kmc> as a compatibility hack
19:41:43 <pikhq> shachaf: Also, on x86_64, __linux_vsyscall DNE anyways.
19:41:49 <fizzie> olsner: SLA/SRA have opcode 0x26/0x2E, and SRL (which is what the only shift-left in the manual is called) is 0x3E, and 0x36 does perform a left shift, so it sort of has to be called "SLL" even though it's not exactly "logical" to shift in set bits.
19:41:55 <Vorpal> kmc, ah, it used to contain a user space one
19:42:00 <kmc> they minimized the amount of code in the legacy vsyscall page, to reduce attack surface
19:42:03 <zzo38> Is it allowed for LLVM functions to be both inline and naked? It may be useful to implement some of the glk.h functions in this way when targeting Glulx
19:42:05 <pikhq> (as syscall always exists, and it's always fast)
19:42:10 <kmc> (specifically the amount of code in fixed locations, for ROP)
19:42:34 <zzo38> Since much of glk.h functions are native instructions in Glulx
19:42:39 <pikhq> Vorpal: Does Not Exist
19:42:45 <shachaf> kmc: Having a "syscall" in a fixed location seems like a pretty useful thing for ROP.
19:42:55 <fizzie> I really thought I used SLL in rfk86, but it does not seem to. :/
19:43:14 <olsner> what can you use it for?
19:43:24 <kmc> on i386, you make normal syscalls through vdso, but the address of that entry point comes in through an ELF auxv, so you don't need a dynamic linker in userspace to find the syscall entry point
19:43:32 <Vorpal> shachaf, the syscall in question was only gettimeofday iirc?
19:43:33 <kmc> whereas you do need one to find the vsyscalls for gettimeofday etc
19:43:48 <olsner> fizzie: but in other words, you have found no use for it?
19:44:02 <Vorpal> shachaf, in the vsyscalls page
19:44:06 <kmc> i don't know if i386 ever had that stuff at a fixed address as x86_64 does
19:44:09 <Vorpal> I don't think it contained "syscall"
19:44:20 <kmc> <kmc> these days vsyscall doesn't contain the legacy gettimeofday, it just contains code to make a "real" gettimeofday syscall
19:44:20 <shachaf> Vorpal: But it does now, doesn't it?
19:44:24 <Vorpal> shachaf, just the "fixed functionality" gettimeofday
19:44:31 <fizzie> olsner: I thought I had. I'm sure I used it in *something*. I mean, it's like SCF; RLC (set carry flag; rotate left via carry) except shorter and doesn't mess the carry. (Er, I guess it might do the latter due to the shift. But anyway, shorter.)
19:44:32 <Vorpal> shachaf, no, that is in the vdso
19:44:58 <fizzie> olsner: If you're collecting bits that come in one by one, serially, in a register, it could be nice.
19:45:00 <shachaf> Vorpal: Last time I looked at [vsyscall] it was mostly empty with a few syscall instructions.
19:45:07 <kmc> == shachaf
19:45:16 <kmc> i found the commit where they removed the interesting code in the vsyscall page
19:45:19 <Vorpal> shachaf, read the bloody source for vsyscall
19:45:34 <kmc> i think you two are confusing two things
19:45:43 <kmc> "vsyscall" the legacy page mapped at ffffffffff600000
19:45:51 <kmc> and "vsyscall" the idea of doing system calls in userspace
19:45:58 <kmc> which these days is implemented not with that page, but with the vdso
19:46:24 <shachaf> Vorpal: I didn't "read the bloody source", but I did "dump the bloody page and disassemble it"
19:46:30 <kmc> probably a wild-ass guess as to how much space they wanted
19:46:51 <olsner> they should've given it a 1GB page, just in case
19:47:04 <kmc> fun fact: you can't write(1, 0xffffffffff600000, 4096)
19:47:21 <shachaf> If bytes were IPv6 addresses...
19:47:41 <Vorpal> kmc, and? it is in the negative address space. User space shouldn't expect to be able to do anything there
19:47:47 <olsner> write rejects all upper-half/negative addresses?
19:47:52 <kmc> olsner: yeah
19:48:04 <kmc> Vorpal: well, you can read from that memory, and jump to it
19:48:06 <shachaf> Vorpal: But you can memcpy(buf, vsyscall);
19:48:19 <Vorpal> shachaf, of course, because that doesn't go into the kernel
19:48:23 <kmc> and this is how vsyscalls used to work
19:48:28 <kmc> Vorpal: not "of course"
19:48:33 <kmc> the kernel sets up the page tables so that you can read that page
19:48:41 <kmc> when ordinarily, you cannot read pages above the midpoint
19:48:46 <Vorpal> kmc, well duh, of course you couldn't do it if it didn't do that
19:48:56 <kmc> don't duh me
19:49:12 <Vorpal> kmc, but it is "of course" since /proc/self/maps says you can read it
19:49:17 <Vorpal> then of course you can memcpy it
19:49:20 <shachaf> Vorpal: I think kmc's point is that you can read from the page but not write(1, page);
19:49:32 <Vorpal> shachaf, yes and not surprising really
19:49:53 <kmc> i'm glad you're such a genius that this fact does not give you a moment's pause
19:49:57 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_a: 57.1
19:50:05 <kmc> and thanks for telling us all how smart you are
19:50:22 <olsner> I think that's one of those things where if it's not surprising you aren't thinking properly about it
19:50:28 <Vorpal> kmc, I didn't mean to offend you, nor did I intend to appear like a genius (I'm not)
19:50:30 <olsner> if you can read it, of course you can write it to a file
19:51:18 <fizzie> kmc: What do you get back from write, incidentally? I mean, if it's EFAULT which means "outside your accessible address space", you could maybe sue someone for lying to you.
19:51:26 <kmc> i think that's what you get
19:51:31 <pikhq> Except that write() makes the read from kernel space, and the kernel no doubt screams about higher-half addresses in system calls.
19:51:34 <kmc> because access_ok() is not particularly clever
19:51:36 <Vorpal> olsner, err no, because write() happens in the kernel. And making the SYSCALL handler error out on kernel addresses is a reasonable security measure
19:51:51 <kmc> it's not "the SYSCALL handler" it's the code for each individual system call
19:52:06 <kmc> in fact that code has to exist in every device driver pretty much
19:52:23 <Vorpal> pikhq, exactly, which is why it makes perfect sense
19:52:26 <kmc> so if one driver forgets it (for example the Reliable Datagram Sockets implementation), you can use that driver to root the machine
19:52:46 <olsner> Vorpal: it doesn't really error out on kernel addresses here, it's erroring out on a "randomly" selected part of the address space, completely unrelated to whether you have access to it or not
19:53:13 <kmc> Vorpal: dude, I never said this fact was completely baffling, it makes sense, it's just slightly odd
19:53:17 <olsner> I mean, it's because it's not actually doing access checks at all that it needs to check address ranges in the first place
19:53:19 <Vorpal> olsner, well yes, but according to the ABI anything with MSB set is kernel.
19:53:30 <kmc> it's just an amusing corner case where the kernel says you can't read a particular piece of memory, but the processor itself lets you read it
19:53:38 <kmc> anyway I think we're all repeating the same facts over and over at this point
19:53:40 <Vorpal> kmc, well yes, that is true
19:53:52 <Vorpal> (both that it is amusing and that we are repeating facts)
19:54:20 <zzo38> Does LLVM have anything that you can make a global variable belong to an instruction? If not, will they ever add such things?
19:54:25 <pikhq> Let's get someone else in here to agree.
19:54:34 <olsner> Vorpal: the whole discussion is also amusing in a way
19:54:36 <kmc> > text "i agree with kmc"
19:54:54 <Vorpal> olsner, hm, be careful of going too meta
19:54:55 <zzo38> Perhaps by a metadata such as !owns
19:55:13 <olsner> in which way can a variable belong to an instruction?
19:55:34 <shachaf> I find it amusing how often [vdso]- or [vsyscall]-related discussions come up when kmc is around.
19:55:34 <fizzie> The ABI in fact explicitly does say "conforming processes may only use addresses from 0x0000000000000000 to 0x00007fffffffffff", that's also a bit funny with the readable high page there.
19:55:40 <shachaf> He doesn't even have to start them, the just happen.
19:55:48 <Vorpal> shachaf, that is strange
19:55:51 <zzo38> I mean that if the instructions are stored in RAM, the address of the global variable will be the same address of the immediate operands to that instruction.
19:56:00 <olsner> fizzie: does it also say somewhere that conforming processes must use vsyscall?
19:56:13 <kmc> it is a bit obnoxious that you can't use the VDSO vsyscalls without a dynamic linker
19:56:32 <zzo38> (If the instructions are not stored in RAM, or if there is something else preventing the instructions from being modified, then that metadata will be removed and a warning will be emitted.)
19:56:34 <kmc> (maybe not a whole dynamic linker; maybe you can get by with a simplistic ELF reader)
19:56:35 <olsner> well, obviously it doesn't now that vdso is there but err, something
19:56:45 <Vorpal> kmc, you could write your own code to parse the ELF structure of the VDSO surely?
19:56:52 <kmc> well, it depends
19:56:58 <kmc> are there dynamic relocations inside the VDSO?
19:56:59 <Vorpal> kmc, since it doesn't have to be a full linker that shouldn't be /too/ hard
19:57:04 <shachaf> kmc: Linux is turning into Windows!
19:57:05 <fizzie> olsner: Well, this is the System V Application Binary Interface. I guess a hypothetical Linux ABI document could just say "overriding SysV ABI, you can actually have this one page if you behave".
19:57:06 <kmc> if so, you need to apply those relocations
19:57:13 <olsner> hmm, where do you get the pointer to the vdso in the first place?
19:57:19 <Vorpal> kmc, I don't think the vdso is writable from user space
19:57:22 <kmc> olsner: ELF auxv
19:57:42 <kmc> Vorpal: it's not a COW mapping like any other shared library?
19:57:45 <olsner> but I guess you'll at least need to look up stuff in the symbol table, yuck
19:57:47 <kmc> i think it is writable
19:57:51 <zzo38> olsner, Vorpal: Can you understand what I meant now, by a variable belonging to an instruction?
19:57:55 <shachaf> kmc: I tried to unmap or mprotect [vdso] and didn't manage it.
19:58:14 <pikhq> kmc: If it's writable and not COW then that's a pretty major vuln.
19:58:16 <Vorpal> kmc, don't /think/ so. Since it contains some shared memory with the kernel, containing that time of day value
19:58:20 <Vorpal> for the user space gettimeofday
19:58:29 <kmc> i remember a mmap_min_addr bypass where you construct an executable where the only location for the VDSO is 0
19:58:49 <shachaf> As far as I know there's no way to get rid of [vdso]/[vsyscall].
19:58:57 <Vorpal> speaking of which, I wish root could disable mmap_min_addr for a specific process, rather than for the whole system
19:59:07 <kmc> can't you?
19:59:08 <olsner> zzo38: probably not possible, for one you have no idea how an immediate gets encoded into memory on your cpu, and self-modifying code might not work at all
19:59:15 <Vorpal> kmc, I have an emulator (ppc mac os classic emulator) that needs mmap_min_addr set to 0 to run
19:59:38 <Vorpal> a better solution than switching it for the whole system would be nice
19:59:51 <kmc> what about the MMAP_PAGE_ZERO personality bit
19:59:54 <shachaf> That's what makes me think [vsyscall] would be ideal for a debugger to do syscalls with.
19:59:55 <olsner> if you accept that it only sometimes works, then sure it's possible but I see no sane reason for someone to add it to LLVM
19:59:56 <kmc> can you set that from userspace
20:00:00 <zzo38> olsner: That is why you would need to make it a metadata which the program that compiles the LLVM code to the native code, must figure out how to encode it properly, or just ignore it
20:00:06 <Vorpal> kmc, yeah afaik the vdso is not writable and not COW
20:00:15 <Vorpal> look at the mapping: 7fff94549000-7fff9454a000 r-xp 00000000 00:00 0 [vdso]
20:00:20 <kmc> sure, but can it be remapped
20:00:24 <kmc> shachaf says no, but i haven't tried
20:00:41 <Vorpal> kmc, why would it need to be remapped? Everything can be RIP relative
20:00:48 <Vorpal> hm maybe not on 32-bit though?
20:00:51 <Vorpal> not sure how that works
20:01:01 <kmc> Vorpal: does not seem relevant
20:01:10 <kmc> i meant, are you allowed to call mprotect() on it to add the write bit
20:01:18 <shachaf> kmc: I'd love to be wrong!
20:01:21 <Vorpal> I would doubt it, try it
20:01:39 <kmc> olsner: on i386 you get an auxv entry for the start of VDSO and another for the syscall entry point
20:01:41 <zzo38> olsner: Maybe you don't want to add it to LLVM, but I think it is good idea. If it is done with a metadata like this, there may be no need for it to be a part of LLVM since the backend can just parse it if it is there
20:01:44 <shachaf> An easier way to test than what I did would be to try to write to it from gdb.
20:02:04 <zzo38> Backends that cannot use this !owns metadata can ignore it.
20:02:24 <Vorpal> <zzo38> olsner, Vorpal: Can you understand what I meant now, by a variable belonging to an instruction? <-- no
20:02:43 <kmc> i think he means, if you write to that variable it changes the instruction
20:02:50 <zzo38> Vorpal: I did explain it though.
20:02:54 <kmc> a variable where "reads" are actually load immediates scattered through the code
20:02:58 <kmc> and "writes" change all those instructions
20:03:01 <kmc> linux has or had a mechanism for this
20:03:07 <Vorpal> zzo38, it made no sense though
20:03:36 <Vorpal> zzo38, not sane basically
20:03:39 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, like that, although it would normally be used to change only the instructions which want that variable as an immediate; other instructions that read it would just read the value directly
20:03:43 <shachaf> ptrace can in theory write to any memory in the process's address space, no matter what the protection.
20:03:56 <zzo38> I don't care if it is sane or not
20:03:57 <shachaf> It goes so far as to convert a SHARED mapping to a PRIVATE mapping.
20:04:00 <kmc> shachaf: 7fff5fdc6000-7fff5fdc7000 rwxp 00000000 00:00 0 [vdso]
20:04:06 <kmc> and i wrote over it, and read the data back out
20:04:06 <Vorpal> <kmc> linux has or had a mechanism for this <-- really?
20:04:11 <kmc> Vorpal: yes, look up "immediate values"
20:04:16 <Vorpal> kmc, so then it is COW
20:04:22 <Vorpal> kmc, does gettimeofday still work after that?
20:04:41 <kmc> i'm not sure where the variables it reads are stored
20:04:47 <kmc> presumably they are in the upper half of memory
20:04:51 <kmc> and don't show up in /proc/self/maps
20:04:54 <kmc> but are readable by userspace
20:05:06 <shachaf> kmc: Maybe I'm just thinking of [vsyscall], then.
20:05:07 <Vorpal> kmc, I think they are static volatile variables in the vdso?
20:05:16 <shachaf> Or maybe I just got it wrong. I don't remember.
20:05:30 <kmc> shachaf: yes, i wouldn't be surprised if vsyscall is permanently read only
20:05:38 <kmc> having some RWX memory at a fixed address would be a serious security concern
20:05:49 <Vorpal> #define gtod (&VVAR(vsyscall_gtod_data))
20:05:58 <olsner> if they are external to the vdso they can be anywhere
20:06:01 <Vorpal> that was clock_gettime though
20:06:28 <olsner> and the kernel can patch in the address or something
20:06:31 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_a: 56.8
20:06:45 <Vorpal> hm so the variable is basically read until it doesn't change between two reads?
20:07:25 <mroman> bfjoust should be more like core wars.
20:07:31 <Vorpal> ../kernel/vmlinux.lds:.vsyscall_var_vsyscall_gtod_data ADDR(.vsyscall_0) + (3072 + 128) + 128 : AT((ADDR(.vsyscall_var_vsyscall_gtod_data) - ((-10*1024*1024) - __vsyscall_0 + 0xffffffff80000000))) { *(.vsyscall_var_vsyscall_gtod_data) } vsyscall_gtod_data = (ADDR(.vsyscall_var_vsyscall_gtod_data) - ((-10*1024*1024) - __vsyscall_0));
20:07:31 <olsner> why would you do that? in case there's a context switch just after you read it?
20:07:46 <Vorpal> olsner, because there are two fields
20:07:51 <Vorpal> olsner, so you need to do it atomic
20:08:04 <Vorpal> and yeah I guess there could be a context switch
20:08:16 <Vorpal> in the middle of reading it
20:08:24 <kmc> i,i cmpxchg16b
20:08:24 <Vorpal> time_t tv_sec; /* seconds */
20:08:24 <Vorpal> suseconds_t tv_usec; /* microseconds */
20:08:38 <Vorpal> time_t is 64-bit, not sure about suseconds_t
20:08:55 <Vorpal> for clock_gettime it is definitely two 64-bit values
20:09:01 <kmc> Vorpal: ah the joy of linker scripts
20:09:01 <Vorpal> kmc, hm you need a LOCK prefix
20:09:10 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_a: 57.5
20:09:27 <Vorpal> kmc, that one looks generated. No human would write that line
20:09:30 <olsner> suseconds_t is 16-bit, so it only works for the first 65ms of a second
20:09:39 <kmc> Vorpal: you would be surprised
20:09:52 <Vorpal> kmc, no seriously, not on one line
20:10:16 <zzo38> I added [ ] repeat in ITMCK. It normally has to be all on one line, but it is OK for [ outside of a macro and ] inside of a macro as long as it is tail recursive. Repeat [ ] cannot nest although you can have a macro inside of [ ] which the macro also has [ ]
20:10:23 <Vorpal> kmc, also the second line of the file reads: " * Automatically generated C config: don't edit"
20:10:27 <olsner> ah, -10*1024*1024, that's 0xffffffff600000
20:10:35 <zzo38> (You will get error messages if you do it wrong.)
20:10:35 <Vorpal> olsner, on that specific kernel
20:10:39 <fizzie> olsner: Ten megs should be enough for everyone.
20:10:40 <Vorpal> which I'm not even running atm
20:10:46 <fizzie> Linker scripts are the best, though.
20:10:53 <Vorpal> olsner, wait, is that in the vsyscall page?
20:10:54 <kmc> perhaps the simplest way is to use gdb to step into the vsyscall code
20:11:21 <olsner> Vorpal: vsyscall_gtod_data was also a hint if the address wasn't enough
20:11:58 <Vorpal> (gdb) disassemble clock_gettime
20:11:58 <Vorpal> Dump of assembler code for function clock_gettime:
20:12:03 <fizzie> .bss ALIGN(4) (NOLOAD) : { . = . + 72; f = .; . = . + 4096; /* such a hack */ *(.bss) } (Okay, it wasn't on one line.)
20:12:14 <Vorpal> oh maybe this kernel is too old
20:12:17 <kmc> (gdb) break gettimeofday
20:12:18 <kmc> Cannot access memory at address 0x7ffff7ffb9f0
20:12:31 <Vorpal> kmc, try disassemble on it?
20:12:31 <olsner> kmc: mprotect to make it writeable first?
20:13:01 <Vorpal> also I thought glibc called the vdso. rather than you calling it directly
20:13:06 <kmc> i thought there efb
20:13:44 <olsner> that reminds me of that time I set a breakpoint inside what happened to be an immediate NULL value in the code
20:13:44 <mroman> Isn't there a version of 'bfjoust' where programs are actually in-memory and can modify each other?
20:13:57 <Vorpal> anyway I don't have debug symbols for that page
20:14:05 <olsner> (speaking of gdb setting breakpoints by modifying code)
20:14:10 <Vorpal> olsner, what happened?
20:14:16 <zzo38> I also want to add runtime subroutines to ITMCK. But there would be some limitations, based on the limitations of the .IT file format: * Runtime subroutines cannot be nested. * Channels must all be synchronized for runtime subroutines (although it may be possible to turn off a channel before calling the subroutine).
20:14:23 <zzo38> Neither of these restrictions applies to macros.
20:14:27 <olsner> Vorpal: the code ran, but set the variable to 0xcc instead of null
20:14:47 <fizzie> mroman: http://esolangs.org/wiki/FukYorBrane not so popular.
20:14:50 <Vorpal> olsner, I thought gdb used hardware breakpoints as long as there were enough around to spare
20:15:11 <olsner> it probably doesn't have access to set those
20:15:26 <Vorpal> olsner, I thought ptrace provided that?
20:15:59 <Vorpal> hbreak -- Set a hardware assisted breakpoint
20:16:07 <Vorpal> olsner, guess it doesn't by default?
20:16:28 <Vorpal> may or may not work I guess
20:16:39 <olsner> I think you only have like 4 of them per cpu
20:16:54 <mroman> I find that to be much better than bfjoust.
20:17:13 <Vorpal> olsner, well it works to break on _init in /bin/cat at least
20:17:19 <mroman> The data buffer for each of them is the opponent's program buffer.
20:17:23 <zzo38> Actually I guess runtime subroutines probably could be nested, although there would still be the restriction against desynchronized subroutines.
20:17:44 <kmc> Vorpal: "edit: fuck, beaten"
20:17:54 <Taneb> Is skype not working for anyone else?
20:18:03 <kmc> i was going to say what you had just said
20:18:22 <Vorpal> olsner, also what about hyper threading here ;P
20:18:23 <mroman> I mean to BF programs running in the SAME memory.
20:18:40 <fizzie> Vorpal: There's some undocumented special features in the hardware breakpoint #0, it had some sort of data-conditional (with masks) thingamajik.
20:19:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, undocumented eh? Anyway data-conditional aren't that uncommon. Quite useful sometimes
20:19:14 <Vorpal> probably very limited since it is hw
20:19:37 <mroman> .....+[]1...........[->]2...
20:19:45 <mroman> where 1 is where the cell pointer of program 1 points to
20:19:46 <fizzie> Yeah, it was something very limited.
20:19:53 <mroman> and 2 where the cell pointer of program 2 points to.
20:20:02 <Vorpal> fizzie, the best hardware breakpoints I ever used was on AVR (with a debugger board connected to it with JTAG). IIRC they were quite numerous and had a lot of functionality
20:20:07 <olsner> Vorpal: *shrug* I did mean cpu==core, but there may be interesting conditionals of course
20:20:13 <shachaf> kmc: Is [vdso] in kernel address space in 32-bit Linux but user address space in 64-bit Linux?
20:20:26 <Vorpal> shachaf, I doubt that...
20:20:35 <kmc> no, i think it's user mapped in both
20:20:39 <zzo38> But perhaps there should be some command it ITMCK which allows you to have multiple entry points and to specify the order number for each one, for compatibility with programs that expect specific order numbers.
20:20:49 <shachaf> f57fe000-f57ff000 r-xp 00000000 00:00 0 [vdso]
20:20:52 <kmc> b7827000-b7828000 r-xp 00000000 00:00 0 [vdso]
20:21:04 <kmc> shachaf: that must be on a 64-bit kernel?
20:21:20 <Vorpal> shachaf, aren't both of those in the the same address space? Below the upper 1 GB on 32-bit that is
20:21:51 <kmc> on a 64-bit kernel, 32-bit processes get the full 4GB
20:22:00 <kmc> though, I don't know where the magic vsyscall variables go then!
20:22:11 <shachaf> kmc: No, it's a 32-bit kernel.
20:22:13 <Vorpal> kmc, they aren't on 32-bit? That fixed page I mean
20:22:24 <Vorpal> kmc, so what would it matter
20:22:25 <olsner> 10MB below 4GB perhaps?
20:22:32 <kmc> shachaf: huh
20:22:45 <Vorpal> kmc, all you have to do is map in a single page somewhere with your data. You could reserve a full page inside your VDSO for that
20:22:46 <kmc> shachaf: the rest of libraries are mapped around 0xb0000000?
20:22:57 <Vorpal> so that one of those pages happens to be empty apart from the shared variables
20:23:05 <Vorpal> and then you just map that page in specially
20:23:09 <Vorpal> kmc, sounds reasonable?
20:23:14 <Vorpal> because iirc that is how it is done
20:23:29 <kmc> well it's tricky though
20:23:40 <kmc> you have to make sure that user writes to that page will fault
20:23:50 <kmc> (either to implement COW or just abort, it's not really relevant)
20:24:03 <fizzie> Vorpal: Bah, the postings about it seem to have vanished. But from some related posts, you need to have 0x9c5a203a in edi for the controlling MSRs to actually appear to exist. And they were AMD-only. So, very undocumented.
20:24:08 <olsner> COW sounds counter-productive on the page that contains the current time and things like that
20:24:11 <kmc> but the page has to be readable from userspace and writable from kernel
20:24:22 <kmc> olsner: sure, but maybe you should allow userspace to COW that page if they really want to
20:24:28 <kmc> olsner: maybe it's the simplest default behavior, i don't know
20:24:44 <kmc> oh, i think i know what
20:24:51 <kmc> you set up another mapping to that physical page
20:25:25 <kmc> yeah you would do this anyway
20:25:47 <kmc> because x86 doesn't have bits for "ro for user, rw for kernel" afaik
20:25:56 <kmc> it just has "user" and "writable"
20:25:57 <Vorpal> <kmc> you have to make sure that user writes to that page will fault <-- just set the page protections for that?
20:26:25 <olsner> kmc: there's a flag for ignoring write protection entirely in kernel mode
20:26:29 <Vorpal> kmc, so you map that physical page into two different virtual addresses yes
20:26:46 <olsner> then again, linux relies on that stuff for security so probably that's useless
20:26:46 <kmc> olsner: oh yeah!
20:26:47 <kmc> good stuff
20:27:00 <kmc> i learned about that from the kernel exploitation book ;)
20:27:02 <Vorpal> olsner, pretty sure linux doesn't use that, since there is an option to write protect certain kernel structures in the kernel config
20:27:15 <Vorpal> you can turn it off in the debug section of the kernel config
20:27:20 <kmc> linux relies on it for several things
20:27:29 <Vorpal> kmc, it does? Then why that flag?
20:27:34 <kmc> for example read(2) should respect the page tables
20:27:35 <Vorpal> or does it switch back and forth?
20:27:44 <kmc> you should not be able to read into read-only memory
20:27:59 <kmc> so the writes within sys_read() or whatever should fault
20:28:02 <olsner> yeah, you should only read *out* of read-only memory
20:28:11 <kmc> you mean, write out of read-only memory ;)
20:28:12 <fizzie> Also I remember Linux/ARM dropped support for PTRACE_SINGLESTEP, because it used to work by using breakpoint-based emulation, and the kernel ARM instruction decoder was too broken (no Thumb-2 and not all instructions anyway) to figure out where to put the breakpoint always.
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20:28:30 <kmc> the pagefault handler has a table of places in the kernel code where a fault means some sensible error condition rather than a kernel bug
20:28:47 <kmc> specifically, you can annotate any instruction in the kernel with "if this instruction faults, jump to here"
20:28:47 <fizzie> (Apparently there's no hardware-assisted direct single-step feature on ARM.)
20:29:13 <fizzie> (And not too many people were actually using it.)
20:29:22 <kmc> so the kernel honoring user memory mapping really has two parts
20:29:36 <kmc> one is the address check, "is it above 0xc0000000" or whatever
20:29:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, I guess gdb can emulate it using breakpoints
20:29:48 <olsner> that whole approach to kernel/user memory access seems horrible
20:29:51 <kmc> the other is handling faults on reads/writes to userspace
20:29:54 <kmc> olsner: yes it is
20:30:15 <olsner> I guess it was performant enough, and doing the checks manually is also pretty horrible
20:30:28 <kmc> this is what x86 segmentation was designed for!
20:30:30 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yes, apparently gdb "stepi" does it in userspace by doing ptrace PEEKTEXT to see where it should put a breakpoint, and handles the instruction decoding by itself.
20:30:40 <kmc> it's like ideal for this
20:30:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, btw did you know that if you have some inline asm in C with a loop inside and you try to step (to the next source line) it will take forever because what it does is repeatedly single step
20:30:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, on x86 that is
20:31:05 <kmc> but, linux doesn't use it because it's not portable
20:31:21 <kmc> PaX patches do use it though
20:31:38 <kmc> also, you can build a Linux kernel where userspace and kernelspace have different sets of page tables, but it's uncommon and has a performance penalty
20:32:23 <Vorpal> kmc, pax must be 32-bit only then?
20:33:02 <Vorpal> kmc, anyway the different page table thing, isn't that what is done for VT-x with the nested page table thing on nehalem (sp?) and later
20:33:46 <kmc> Vorpal: PaX has a number of features
20:33:59 <kmc> most of them don't depend on segmentation
20:34:13 <kmc> i was talking about the particular feature of "kernel can't read from userspace unless it knows it's doing so"
20:34:26 <kmc> which on i386 is implemented with segmentation
20:34:34 <kmc> and on amd64 they have a slower implementation using some page table voodoo
20:34:40 <kmc> which i don't understand in detail
20:35:11 <kmc> and yeah I hear that VT-x supports what amounts to tagged TLB, which is a welcome feature
20:35:24 <kmc> Vorpal: i don't know anything about the state of PaX on architectures other than x86-{32,64}
20:35:45 <Vorpal> kmc, my desktop should support it. it is sandy bridge. my laptop is core 2 duo though, so it can do VT-x, but not the nested page table
20:36:01 <Vorpal> is ARM a clean architecture or is it just as bad?
20:36:19 <olsner> I think the address space ID:s only come on some (higher-end? xeon?) cpus
20:36:25 <kmc> ARM is cleaner than x86
20:36:28 <kmc> there is less history, for one
20:36:33 <kmc> but it's not without its share of weirdness
20:36:40 * oerjan wonders if there is a zoidberg programming language http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/vsstl/confessions_of_a_php_addict/c57efs1?context=2
20:36:49 <kmc> remember, the RISC philosophy is to push weirdness into the ISA, with the goal of making the implementation simpler
20:37:26 <Vorpal> kmc, well, but any amusing examples?
20:37:35 <kmc> ARM is sort of a "second generation RISC" in that the designers thought very carefully about the traditional drawbacks of RISC and tried to counteract them
20:37:47 <fizzie> olsner: I remember reading a sentence that sounded like that somewhat recently, too.
20:37:49 <kmc> Vorpal: well, for one, most ARM chips support two different ISAs
20:37:53 <kmc> ARM and Thumb
20:37:58 <kmc> and Thumb comes in two major versions too
20:38:03 <Vorpal> kmc, also a 64-bit ARM is in the works
20:38:07 <olsner> in any case, a reasonable fallback implementation is to just mask off the ASID part of cr3 and flush the TLB every time
20:38:11 <Vorpal> no product yet announced
20:38:17 <Vorpal> so that will add a third ISA
20:38:18 <kmc> ARM, Thumb, and Thumb-2 all have completely different ways of handling conditionals
20:38:39 <Vorpal> okay so it will add a fourth ISA then
20:38:45 <kmc> and you can call between ARM and Thumb{,-2} code
20:39:01 <kmc> the "am I in Thumb" bit is stored in the (ignored) LSB of the instruction pointer
20:39:04 <Vorpal> kmc, how do they handle conditionals? Isn't it just a case of checking a flag register and jumping based on that?
20:39:17 <kmc> which is nice, because it's saved and restored with calls
20:39:20 <kmc> but also a little wacky
20:39:27 <kmc> Vorpal: on ARM, *any* instruction can be made conditional
20:39:33 <kmc> this cuts down on the number of branches, hence pipeline stalls
20:39:41 <kmc> but any instruction :)
20:39:51 <kmc> in Thumb-1 you have conditional branches only
20:39:53 <Vorpal> kmc, fairly limited possible conditions though I guess?
20:39:58 <kmc> in Thumb-2 you have this even wackier thing
20:40:26 <kmc> you do your test or whatever, and then you issue a pseudoinstruction like IF or ITTF
20:40:32 <kmc> IF means "do the next instruction only if false"
20:40:40 <kmc> ITTF means "do the next 2 instructions if true, and the one after that if false"
20:40:46 <kmc> you can conditionalize 4 instructions this wya
20:40:49 <Vorpal> isn't that the same as variable length instructions
20:40:50 <olsner> x86 could've replaced its conditional jumps with conditional-execution prefixes
20:40:55 <kmc> Vorpal: sort of
20:41:04 <Vorpal> except the two instruction thingy...
20:41:06 <Vorpal> kmc, You said it stored if it was Thumb in the LSB, what about Thumb-1/Thumb-2? Or doesn't a CPU support both at the same time?
20:41:17 <kmc> Thumb-2 is a superset of Thumb-1, iirc
20:41:26 <Vorpal> also is there any overhead from the switching?
20:41:45 <kmc> Thumb-2 is supposed to be mostly a replacement for the original ARM ISA
20:41:57 <Vorpal> kmc, so you don't ever leave Thumb?
20:41:58 <kmc> whereas Thumb-1 is limited and it's expected that you call back into ARM routines for some things
20:42:06 <kmc> maybe a bit, for OS stuff. i don't know really
20:42:16 <Vorpal> kmc, what about the ARM64 stuff then?
20:42:17 <kmc> regarding "fairly limited possible conditions", i think it has the usual ones
20:42:18 <olsner> based on how common the ARM/Thumb cross-jumps are, I think they're supposedly mostly overhead free
20:42:20 <Vorpal> not released yet, but in the works
20:42:24 <kmc> no idea about ARM64
20:42:31 <Vorpal> kmc, iirc there wouldn't be a new Thumb variant for it
20:42:44 <kmc> no, they will probably try to design a single variable length encoding like Thumb-2 and stick to it
20:42:49 <Vorpal> maybe they just decided to go with a Thumb like 64-bit thingy
20:42:56 <olsner> they should call it Leg and use 64-bit long instructions
20:42:56 <kmc> and you don't need to support fast 64-to-32 calls the way you need to support Thumb-1 to ARM calls
20:43:06 <kmc> so it can be in a privileged flag bit
20:43:07 <kmc> olsner: hahaha
20:43:21 <Vorpal> kmc, Thumb-2 is variable length? What about Thumb-1 and ARM?
20:43:23 <kmc> Vorpal: another wacky thing about ARM is that there are multiple incompatible FPUs used with it
20:43:32 <kmc> ARM has 32-bit instructions
20:43:42 <kmc> both Thumb ISAs have some 16- and some 32-bit instructions
20:43:56 <kmc> one advantage of Thumb is, it executes much faster on embedded processors with only 16-bit data bus
20:44:13 <kmc> ARM isn't only for shiny smartphones, the cheapest ARM chips cost like $3
20:44:30 <kmc> there are many variants of ARM owing to its licensed nature
20:44:32 <Vorpal> that is in bulk though
20:44:46 <olsner> Vorpal: it's pretty nice that the instructions have all that space though, everything has a condition, and most instructions have three operands plus one operand register can have a shift offset for free
20:44:48 <Vorpal> anyway why the incompatible FPUs
20:45:04 <kmc> Vorpal: because they didn't specifiy one initially, and then different licensees integrated differet ones?
20:45:07 <kmc> i don't know really
20:45:08 <Vorpal> olsner, what about long jumps though?
20:45:12 <kmc> like 3DNow / MMX, but worse
20:45:21 <kmc> ARM does have a uniform way to talk to coprocessors, though
20:45:26 <kmc> there is a set of instructions reserved for that
20:45:31 <kmc> that's how you talk to the MMU too, iirc
20:45:32 <Vorpal> kmc, I hope the high end ARM does have a unified FPU?
20:45:33 <kmc> if you have one
20:45:33 <olsner> Vorpal: for jumping far, Leg is recommended instead of ARM
20:45:49 <kmc> Vorpal: yeah, there is now a standard SIMD instruction set too
20:46:13 <Vorpal> olsner, I meant when your jump target needs a 32-bit address, rather than something you can embed in a 32-bit address
20:46:18 <Vorpal> err 32-bit instruction*
20:46:34 <kmc> Vorpal: also, in addition to ARM and Thumb, there is another mode for hardware-assisted JVM
20:46:38 <kmc> though it is vestigial in recent chips
20:46:45 <Vorpal> kmc, riight? What mode is that
20:47:01 <Vorpal> what did it provide for JVM support then?
20:47:07 <kmc> and there's *another* mode called ThumbEE (Thumb Execution Environment)
20:47:21 <kmc> which is a variant of Thumb used for running managed code more efficiently
20:47:33 <olsner> Vorpal: load the address, then jump to it ... the usual thing with RISC and large immediate values, I guess
20:47:43 <kmc> "New features provided by ThumbEE include automatic null pointer checks on every load and store instruction, an instruction to perform an array bounds check, ..."
20:48:13 <kmc> Vorpal: they never published the specs you would need to make a JVM that takes advantage of Jazelle
20:48:15 <Vorpal> olsner, ah okay. I seem to remember AVR did have a long jump though, even though otherwise it was mostly RISC
20:48:33 <Vorpal> kmc, that sounds stupid
20:48:51 <kmc> "For the avoidance of doubt, distribution of products containing software code to exercise the BXJ instruction and enable the use of the ARM Jazelle architecture extension without [..] agreement from ARM is expressly forbidden"
20:48:58 <kmc> pretty shitty
20:49:03 <kmc> and it never really caught on, iirc
20:49:09 <kmc> ThumbEE is the less shitty replacement
20:49:09 <olsner> Vorpal: it implemented some java bytecodes directly in hardware, supposedly has something for array bounds checks and a way to describe some parts of how your heap looks so that the Jazelle thing can do it for you
20:49:41 <fizzie> Someone compiled Qt on N900 with -mfp=neon and had that Stellarium night-sky-browser app go from 10 fps to 60 fps.
20:49:53 <olsner> but I think for any recent implementation of the thing, all it does is read a byte and jump to the registered "unhandled instruction" handler
20:50:02 <Vorpal> fizzie, so why wasn't Qt compiled like that by default?
20:50:23 <fizzie> Or is that -mfpu=neon. Anyway, the one that makes it do autovectorization.
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20:50:41 <fizzie> Some option that contained the substring "neon" anyway.
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20:50:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, so why wasn't it done like that by default
20:51:13 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway Stellarium uses opengl right? So why not just use the GPU of the device
20:51:13 <fizzie> Might not have been so well-supported by GCC when it was originally compiled, or something.
20:51:27 <fizzie> It does use EGL, I believe, yes.
20:51:46 <Vorpal> please tell me there is a hardware GPU on that phone?
20:52:01 <fizzie> But that kind of depends on the software author offloading enough work there.
20:52:26 <olsner> and that you can do efficient communication between CPU and GPU to get useful work done
20:52:49 <Vorpal> olsner, well stellarium just need to provider a couple of shaders and a sky texture
20:53:03 <Vorpal> oh and update some coordinates for where the user is looking
20:53:08 <olsner> hmm, so what's Qt doing in there?
20:53:30 <fizzie> It does have a Qt UI. Anyway, I don't know the details; just saw the reported results.
20:53:49 <fizzie> Also I don't know how good the GPU is. It's the same OMAP 3430 SoC / PowerVR SGX 530 GPU / TMS320C64x DSP combo that was in many phones at that time.
20:53:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, have you recompiled it like that?
20:54:21 <fizzie> And no. I mean, I don't have Stellarium installed either. :p
20:54:27 <fizzie> I don't think I have many Qt apps on it.
20:55:28 <fizzie> Anyway, I haven't bothered to mess with the software very much. Haven't even installed the CSSU, the community-supplied "System Software Update" that they made now that Nokia's no longer interested.
20:56:31 <olsner> yay for abandoned platforms
20:56:35 <fizzie> The DSP is real fancy, though; I did get some TI docs and tools to maybe write some code for it, just haven't managed to actually.
20:56:47 <fizzie> It's a VLIWy thing, I've never really written code by hand for one.
20:56:56 <fizzie> Probably not a sensible thing to do either, but just for recreation.
20:57:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, what is it normally used for?
20:57:16 <fizzie> It does the usual, video/music decoding.
20:57:17 <Vorpal> and those are used for what? sound?
20:57:39 <fizzie> I think on later OMAP chips they've dropped the separate DSP core and just use the GPU. Possibly.
20:58:05 <fizzie> Oh, it does JPEG encoding for the camera app too.
20:58:10 <Vorpal> the arm echo system is confusing
20:58:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, ah you can get raw photos then? congrats
20:58:20 <fizzie> OMAP is TI's platform.
20:58:43 <fizzie> You can get raw images if you install the custom camera drivers, yes. The stock camera app doesn't do it.
20:58:43 <olsner> when used for music, the GPU could be called a Groove Processing Unit
20:59:02 <Vorpal> olsner, you are not oerjan
20:59:25 <fizzie> And the JPEG quality factor in the stock app is hardcoded for the DSP-driven encoder. If you want to change it, you have to also switch to a CPU encoder. So lazy.
20:59:29 <Vorpal> olsner, the terrible puns
21:00:27 <zzo38> How does the rules for ARM Jazelle to use BXJ work like that? Why is permission required?
21:00:44 <Vorpal> zzo38, looks like an NDA?
21:00:50 <olsner> I think it's because they want money for it
21:01:23 <olsner> or possibly they have licensed the java stuff from somewhere that requires licenses
21:01:33 <zzo38> Is there a version of ARM that does not have those instructions?
21:01:55 <Vorpal> kmc, looks from the wikipedia summary like ARM64 will be similar to ARM32. Which doesn't seem sensible to me
21:01:58 <olsner> yes, I think most versions don't support the extension at all
21:02:46 <fizzie> Vorpal: Correction: seems that even the latest OMAP generation (OMAP 5, not even out yet) has a discrete DSP. Well, they're Texas Instruments, I guess they felt like they had to. But they've certainly complicated the thing in other ways: "OMAP 5 SoC uses a dual-core ARM Cortex-A15 CPU with two additional Cortex-M4 cores to offload the A15s in less computionally intensive tasks to increase ...
21:02:52 <fizzie> ... power efficiency, two PowerVR SGX544MP graphics cores and a dedicated TI 2D BitBlt graphics accelerator, a multi-pipe display sub-system and a signal processor."
21:03:00 <kmc> anyway i do like the core ARM architecture
21:03:03 <kmc> conditional instructions are cool
21:03:16 <kmc> the instruction pointer is a general purpose register
21:03:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, nice. Is that as many cores as the PS2 yet?
21:03:49 <kmc> in addition to deciding which instructions are conditional
21:03:49 <olsner> hmm, so that's like 9 different cpu-like things in one SoC
21:03:57 <kmc> you can also decide which arithmetic instructions update the condition flags
21:04:10 <kmc> that's kind of necessary for it to work well
21:04:16 <olsner> or 6 different ones, plus three that are similar to three of those 6
21:04:17 <Vorpal> hm my phone has a Exynos 4212 Quad
21:04:21 <Vorpal> I should check the specs on that
21:04:45 <kmc> also there's a cool instruction which transfers any subset of the registers to or from memory
21:05:02 <kmc> which can be use for pushing/popping blocks of registers across a function call
21:05:05 <kmc> or just for bulk data transfers
21:05:44 <olsner> to make it better, those are the push and pop instructions, and can also be used to return from a function by pushing the link register and popping the program counter
21:06:14 <fizzie> kmc: If you like that, how about that FirePath? It's got conditional SIMD stuff, you can do "cmphib p0, r1, r2" to individually compare all bytes of r1/r2, store the results in predicate register p0, and then do a predicated "p0.movb r2, r1" to move only the ones for which the comparisons were true?
21:06:22 <fizzie> Also, it's designed by Sophie Wilson too.
21:06:24 <kmc> that's neat
21:06:48 <Vorpal> <kmc> also there's a cool instruction which transfers any subset of the registers to or from memory <-- how can you define any subset? A bitmask?
21:06:58 <fizzie> Sadly, there's very little material about it anywhere, Broadcom uses it in their DSLAMs and such but that's about it.
21:07:22 <Vorpal> kmc, that limits the number of registers you can have. ARM64 is going to have 32-bit instruction and 31 general purpose 64-bit registers
21:07:32 <Vorpal> don't think that is going to work if the bitmask is immediate
21:07:53 <Vorpal> and if it isn't the function to save registers seems kind of useless
21:07:54 <fizzie> (After buying Element 14, the folks that split out of Acorn.)
21:08:06 <kmc> another bit of ARM trivia: in the standard ABI, there's a register reserved for use by the *linker*
21:08:17 <olsner> Vorpal: it is possible that they will change one or two things in ARM64
21:08:23 <kmc> linking two functions might require the linker to emit some code, if the functions are sufficiently far apart
21:08:36 <Vorpal> olsner, yes they likely will
21:08:47 <fizzie> Well, MIPS has one register reserved for the assembler. It's just fair. :p
21:08:53 <Vorpal> olsner, it is going to be "mostly the same" as the 32-bit ARM ISA though it says
21:08:54 <fizzie> (Temporary in pseudo-ops.)
21:09:35 <fizzie> And two for the kernel. I wonder if/how Linux-on-MIPS uses those.
21:09:47 <kmc> program counter as a GPR also means you get PC-relative addressing in a uniform way for free
21:11:20 <Vorpal> btw, is it usual for the compasses in smartphones to be good? In the smartphones I used previously they were mostly crap. In my new phone it seems deadly accurate though...
21:16:57 <fizzie> No compass at all, so can't really comment first-hand.
21:17:33 <fizzie> Irrelated; the C54x DSP, which was the one of the platforms on the "DSP and audio processing" course, is not VLIW, but it has a couple of specific "do these two things in parallel" instructions. The syntax, though... I mean, here's a comb filter: http://sprunge.us/HZie -- the parallel syntax is that || thing, and the two lines are actually a single instruction.
21:19:07 <fizzie> It's very restricted which two instructions you can ||, I think there weren't more than three or four specific combinations.
21:19:52 <fizzie> And I think with additional restrictions on the available registers/addressing modes because they were running out of bits.
21:21:39 <fizzie> Also funny: http://sprunge.us/bGgA
21:21:54 <fizzie> The "useful.txt" lists which files are worth looking at. There were seven.
21:22:20 <fizzie> (It was a giant zip of documentation they gave us.)
21:23:08 <fizzie> And of course the documentation numbers don't have any sort of logic. Though I'm sure there's a list somewhere.
21:23:36 <fizzie> But e.g. spru131g.pdf, spru172c.pdf and spru302.pdf are volumes 1, 2 and 5 (the useful ones) of the C54x DSP Reference Manual.
21:24:38 <fizzie> I liked that course a whole lot, incidentally.
21:25:26 <fizzie> I mean, you got to write some assembly, that's always good fun. I think there were a total of two courses like that, including this one.
21:26:05 <fizzie> And also to play with unusual (from my viewpoint, anyway) hardware.
21:26:56 <fizzie> Though we did waste like three days wondering what was wrong in our serial communication thing before finding out the speaker cable I had "borrowed" for the purpose was actually broken, and worked/not-worked vaguely depending on the angle it was in.
21:27:09 <olsner> I'd like to write me some "GPU assembly" at some point
21:27:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, what about VHDL or Verilog?
21:27:47 <Vorpal> olsner, you can't really, the required information isn't really public
21:27:50 <fizzie> There's a bit of that available, but I didn't end up taking those courses. Probably would've been fun, but you can't do all.
21:28:32 <olsner> intel supposedly released complete documentation on their ivy bridge GPU, but probably none of that is applicable for other vendors
21:29:00 <fizzie> The DSP course was, incidentally, the one where we had that TI-86 driven control device I'm sure I've mentioned before.
21:29:03 <olsner> in the worst case it's just more x86 cpus
21:29:10 <kmc> fizzie: i don't think i heard about it
21:31:47 <fizzie> kmc: See, the task (for us) was to do some sort of an echo effect on the DSP, but the devel board only has like four buttons and four leds, so it doesn't do much IO. So we (well, one in our three-person group) wrote a TI-86 proggie to graphically show four slider controls that controlled the effect, and then communicated changes in those from the TI-86 link port to the board's serial port. (We ...
21:31:50 <Vorpal> olsner, that is intel GPU, not very useful :P
21:31:53 <fizzie> ... spent quite long trying to make the very programmable serial port hardware help us collect the bits, but didn't quite manage that; ended up with a software polling solution instead.)
21:32:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, you must have spent ages on that project
21:33:07 <fizzie> Vorpal: Probably a bit more than we should've. :p
21:33:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, best in class though?
21:33:34 <zzo38> What DSP can we use for audio and video which GNU C compiler or LLVM can compile into and which has free assemblers and emulators and is not too expensive?
21:33:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, was that the graph calc interface that looked weird?
21:34:04 <Vorpal> I remember you mentioning something like that
21:34:28 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, the effect itself wasn't all that impressive, and I don't think everyone else in the class really appreciated the TI-86 control enough. But we had unarguably the best TI-86 control interface in class, at least.
21:34:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, I don't remember how it was weird though
21:35:24 <fizzie> Here's a collection of photos from our slides: http://users.ics.aalto.fi/htkallas/dsp-collage.png
21:35:27 <kmc> fizzie: cool
21:35:34 <fizzie> It had that whip image, at least.
21:35:44 <fizzie> And another whip-themed thing for when you pressed "send" on the calc.
21:36:14 <fizzie> (Due to the name of the course, "SPÄNK", "signaaliprosessorit ja äänenkäsittely", "DSPs and sound processing".)
21:36:40 <fizzie> Also I think the lecturer had some number of spanking-related puns.
21:39:57 <fizzie> (Clockwise from top-left: there's the Perl prototype for the actual effect; oscilloscope from some "broken wire" debugging sessions; TI's Code Composer Studio which must've crashed at least three dozen times, especially often when debugging on the live device; Audacity showing some simulated output; and in the middle the development board itself.)
21:40:12 <fizzie> Oh, right: it didn't even have four buttons, it had four DIP switches.
21:41:04 <fizzie> One of the other platforms were some sort of musician-oriented device, so it had actual turnable knobs and anything.
21:44:35 <fizzie> http://www.chameleon.synth.net/english/index.shtml <- that thing.
21:44:51 <fizzie> At least there's a link from the old course page to there, so it must be somehow related.
21:45:02 <fizzie> And it does say "24bit programmable audio dsp engine", so I suppose it's programmable.
21:45:43 <fizzie> Nothing, now; it was just an old course.
21:46:10 <fizzie> Chameleon has a Motorola DSP56k in it.
21:47:04 <fizzie> 24-bit words, how fancy. (The C54x has 16-bit words.)
21:48:21 <fizzie> (And the third device was a 32-bit floating-point SHARC from Analog Devices; technically even fancier.)
21:50:22 <fizzie> If I recall correctly, the platform for each group was allocated randomly, to guarantee an even split. (Limited amount of devices to test on.)
21:56:00 <Vorpal> so not the same platform for everyone?
21:56:36 <fizzie> No, I think there were about a dozen groups on the course, so that'd make about four groups for each of the three systems.
21:58:53 <fizzie> I see the C54x had MIPS-like branch delay slots, it'd run two (or one with an immediate) instructions after each branch before actually branching.
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21:59:34 <fizzie> (Got sidetracked reading our old code here.)
22:15:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, side tracked from what?
22:16:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, btw, an average day at work, what do you do apart from IRC? You seem to be available like 90% of the time
22:22:07 <Vorpal> I think he may be sleeping
22:22:40 <oerjan> ircing and sleeping, all in a day's work
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22:23:52 <fizzie> Not quite, just away. Anyway, I don't think I generally talk the *whole* day, I just have the IRC client left open on the same screen as email.
22:23:59 <itidus21> i do the math (no pun intended) and decide that by doing absolutely nothing i am probably contributing to society
22:24:25 <Vorpal> itidus21, you have really low self esteem
22:24:57 <itidus21> well if the bad guys are contributing -7 -5 -22 -3.. then 0 is a lot
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22:25:48 <Vorpal> also that way to measure it seems rather unusual
22:25:52 <Vorpal> what do you mean by it
22:26:19 <itidus21> > ((-7) + (-5) + (-22) + (-3) + 0 ) / 5
22:26:32 <itidus21> > ((-7) + (-5) + (-22) + (-3) ) / 4
22:26:38 <Vorpal> that seems pretty pessimistic
22:26:48 <Vorpal> such an outlook on your own contribution
22:27:48 <Vorpal> I'm pretty sure that is not a good model for contributing to a channel
22:28:10 <itidus21> i didn't just mean the channel
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22:29:24 <itidus21> > ((-7) + (-5) + (-22) + (-3) + 1.85 ) / 5
22:29:32 <Vorpal> itidus21, even more pessimistic
22:29:37 <itidus21> things are getting better already
22:31:33 <Vorpal> itidus21, what if you actually make a positive contribution?
22:32:54 <itidus21> it is impossible by any means to avoid being in someone elses way some of the time
22:33:26 <itidus21> im kinda tired and sleepy, but i plan to visit the chemist
22:34:03 <lambdabot> Local time for itidus21 is Sat Jun 30 08:32:23
22:34:11 <quintopia> !bfjoust simple [>[(+)*10[-]](+)*15>[(+)*10[-]](-)*15]
22:34:14 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_simple: 16.9
22:34:41 <itidus21> > ((-7) + (-5) + (-22) + (-3) + (1.85+5) + 16.9) / 6
22:36:53 <itidus21> Option 2, Depart Sat, 9:12 am, Arrive
22:40:32 <itidus21> i'll be happier when this trip is over
22:42:48 <quintopia> !bfjoust simple (>[>>(>(+)*20[-]++)*20](+)*15>[>>(>(+)*20[-]++)*20](-)*15)*15
22:42:50 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_simple: 24.9
22:47:28 <quintopia> !bfjoust simple (>[>>(>(+)*35[-]++)*20](+)*15>[>>(>(+)*35[-]++)*20](-)*15)*15
22:47:31 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_simple: 22.1
22:47:35 <quintopia> !bfjoust simple (>[>>(>(+)*20[-]++)*20](+)*15>[>>(>(+)*20[-]++)*20](-)*15)*15
22:47:38 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_simple: 25.0
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22:52:31 <quintopia> !bfjoust simple (+)*10(>[>>(>(+)*20[-]++)*20](+)*15>[>>(>(+)*20[-]++)*20](-)*15)*15
22:52:33 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_simple: 29.2
23:06:19 <zzo38> LLVM does now have !range which can specify range of values, somewhat like Pascal types can indicate ranges, although in this case it is done by values instead.
23:14:51 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_a: 55.6
23:15:45 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_a: 55.3
23:16:14 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_a: 57.0
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00:10:33 <zzo38> Glulx has malloc and free as built-in instructions, and LLVM's @llvm.debugtrap() also is a built-in instruction of Glulx.
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01:02:45 <zzo38> However it may be difficult to implement all uses of alloca for Glulx
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01:33:46 <fizzie> Regarding your earlier question about audio/video DSPs, official support for the TMS320C6x series was (quite recently) added in GCC release 4.7. (There is also a project for running Linux on it, support is in kernel 3.3.) I don't think it has free simulators, though, and I don't know how much the chips cost.
01:33:52 <fizzie> There's a project called gDSPsim that tries to be a simulator for the TI TMS320C54x that I worked with, but it wasn't very complete back then, and doesn't seem to have really been worked on since 2003. Also, the C54x chips might not quite have the horsepower for video stuff.
01:33:58 <fizzie> There is a free Motorola DSP56001 assembler, and some unofficial ports of GCC 1.x, but those are very old, and again no simulators that I know of.
01:34:05 <fizzie> The Analog Devices Blackfin family has a GCC port, and the Skyeye embedded-system simulator has some sort of support for it, but I don't know how good.
01:34:09 <fizzie> And there might well be other archs I just know nothing about.
01:45:55 <fizzie> (The Blackfin is a kind of a hybrid between a general-purpose RISC microcontroller and a "traditional" DSP chip.)
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03:25:47 <Sgeo> Cloud Party's scripting language is some sort of fake Javascript
03:26:12 <Sgeo> Either functions are not first-class, or they are and the API makes absolutely no use of them being so
03:26:26 <Sgeo> I should check when it comes back online
03:28:53 <Sgeo> http://forums.cloudpartytime.com/discussion/1/scripting-documentation
03:41:56 <Sgeo> monqy, tswett UPDATE
03:42:39 <monqy> Error 503 Service Unavailable
03:42:39 <monqy> Service Unavailable
03:42:41 <monqy> what a good update
03:58:33 <itidus21> so what exactly is cloud party?
03:58:57 <itidus21> looking on google images, i think i found it
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06:08:22 <zzo38> What is a standing 8 count?
06:10:20 <zzo38> What is a 10 point must system of scoring?
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06:29:25 <zzo38> Do you know what standing 8 count and 10 point must system of scoring means?
06:30:48 <itidus21> Standing 8 count? What is a boxing judgment call made by a referee during a bout according to wikipedia, Alex.
06:31:25 <zzo38> That still doesn't explain very well.
06:37:26 <shachaf> kmc: Do you object to C89/99?
06:37:58 <shachaf> I was about to write it in a GHC bug report but I wouldn't want to make an enemy of you!
06:38:21 <zzo38> What does C89/99 have to do with a GHC bug report?
06:40:10 <zzo38> Is there a bug in the RTS?
06:40:26 <shachaf> (Well, Knuth and Ken Thompson might disagree on it.)
06:41:18 <zzo38> What bug is it? And why do they disagree?
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06:45:26 <shachaf> Since GHC doesn't compile with -std=c99 anyway.
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06:57:38 <shachaf> KirinDave: Your rite to correct him!
06:57:50 <shachaf> (I count three meanings there.)
06:58:08 <shachaf> I think that was the wrong channel.
06:58:27 <shachaf> zzo38: http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/7037
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07:01:45 <zzo38> Yes they should fix that
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07:15:19 <kmc> shachaf: by "doesn't compile" you mean "doesn't use" or "doesn't work"?
07:16:16 <shachaf> I mean there's a comment saying something along the lines of "the former because of the latter".
07:16:26 <kmc> what breaks?
07:17:12 <shachaf> // On Solaris, we don't get the INFINITY and NAN constants unless we
07:17:15 <shachaf> // #define _STDC_C99, and we can't do that unless we also use -std=c99,
07:17:18 <shachaf> // because _STDC_C99 causes the headers to use C99 syntax (e.g. restrict).
07:17:20 <shachaf> // We aren't ready for -std=c99 yet, so define INFINITY/NAN by hand using
07:17:26 <shachaf> Maybe it's only Solaris, I don't know.
07:19:36 <kmc> i like C99
07:19:48 <kmc> i should probably learn about C11
07:21:28 <kmc> it has threads and atomics...
07:22:41 <kmc> atoms for peace
07:26:02 <shachaf> I read that atoms are dangerous.
07:27:07 <kmc> they're used to make chemicals
07:32:04 <kmc> i'm going to disappear from IRC for two weeks
07:32:09 <kmc> biking to Vermont and back
07:32:18 <kmc> so my absence does not indicate that i've been eaten by a bear
07:32:20 <kmc> though that is a possibility
07:43:03 <kmc> then later i am going to ireland, uk, greece, albania, montenegro, bosnia, croatia, hungary, slovakia, poland, lithuania, latvia, estonia, finland
07:43:09 <kmc> or something like that
07:43:33 <kmc> july 18 through august 17
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08:08:15 <kmc> shachaf: do you have any travel plans?
08:08:54 <shachaf> I should come up with some.
08:09:40 <kmc> i want to go to china
08:09:52 <kmc> requires more planning though
08:10:17 <shachaf> Do they still have the tourism program for North Korea?
08:14:30 <kmc> i am flying from BOS to DUB for about $500 round-trip
08:14:36 <kmc> pretty sweet deal
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08:17:27 <shachaf> This argc==0 bug is great.
08:17:40 <shachaf> Very few programs check it.
08:18:07 <shachaf> I'll be getting a tarsnap.com bounty for it too, it seems!
08:19:46 <kmc> huh, they have a $10 bounty for even a typo in a comment in tarsnap!
08:20:05 <shachaf> When I got my bounties it was $1/comment.
08:20:11 <kmc> er, i misread
08:20:14 <shachaf> I ran a spellchecker on the code and got $20 for it.
08:20:16 <kmc> "mistakes" in comments are $10
08:20:25 <kmc> you were actually the first person to think of that?
08:20:46 <shachaf> It was pretty soon after they were announced, so maybe?
08:21:08 <shachaf> It completely doesn't accompllish his goals of "getting more people to review the code".
08:22:38 <kmc> it gets more people to review the bounty schedule!
08:22:47 * shachaf wonders whether to trust tarsnap.
08:23:14 <kmc> well, they had one really embarassing mistake
08:24:20 <kmc> it might still be as good as you could realistically hope for
08:25:01 <shachaf> Well, I would assume that GPG + any online backup is probably more trustworthy (but also more expensive).
08:27:05 <shachaf> It's not as if it actually matters.
08:27:36 <kmc> i don't think it's really true that "given enough eyeballs, all bugs are shallow"
08:27:47 <kmc> in fact i think you can find many counterexamples within the Linux kernel
08:28:51 <shachaf> No, but that doesn't mean it has no value at all.
08:29:19 <kmc> most bugs, even critical security holes, are small dumb things
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08:36:04 <shachaf> The other $10 was from being in the channel and someone saying "hey, valgrind reports a memory leak in this program" and tracking it down.
08:36:10 * shachaf is the laziest bounty hunter.
08:40:37 <shachaf> kmc: Did you see http://158.130.69.163/~byorgey/pub/monoid-pearl.pdf ?
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09:52:21 <kmc> what kind of game is this
09:52:47 <Taneb> > let kmc = (-1) in sqrt kmc
09:53:39 <oerjan> i was just reading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunguska_event and it gave an area of 2150 square kilometers
09:54:42 <Taneb> You know, there are no square numbers that end in 8 in base 10
09:54:46 <kmc> that's where the black oil comes from
09:55:41 <oerjan> Taneb: iirc, take a look at cubes in base 8
09:57:06 <kmc> DUH JEEZ YOU FUCKING IDIOT
09:57:14 <kmc> IT IS TRIVIAL
09:57:42 <Taneb> 1 0 3 0 5 0 7 0...
09:57:51 <Taneb> I was looking at cubes
09:59:16 <ion> Click on the image to see a picture of the entire motherboard, with the cat for scale. (Filesize for image is 110K, so it may take a few seconds to download.)
09:59:45 <ion> http://www.obsolyte.com/sun_ipx/
10:00:17 <oerjan> anyway, in a prime base, exactly (p+1)/2 of the digits can end a square.
10:00:53 <shachaf> What if it's an even prime?
10:01:28 <shachaf> You just ruled out, like, half the primes, man.
10:01:40 <oerjan> YOU CANNOT CHECKMATE ME, I'M NEITHER ATHEIST NOR CREATIONIST
10:01:53 <ion> half primes are the best primes
10:01:55 <oerjan> for a certain value of "half"
10:02:19 <shachaf> I suspect *that's* what's giving you your checkmate invulnerability.
10:02:34 <kmc> grr newegg really screwed me over
10:02:44 <kmc> purchased an item, the order sat for 9 days saying "packaging", then i poked them by email, and they realized / admitted they don't actually have the item
10:03:06 <kmc> thinkpad ultrabay battery
10:03:38 <kmc> now i have to buy this battery on ebay, it will probably be fake, and it will come on the slow boat to china
10:03:51 <kmc> ok, slow boat from china
10:04:04 <kmc> and with the 9 day delay, it might not arrive by the time i need it
10:04:35 <kmc> the thinkpad is a T61
10:04:44 <kmc> the battery i want is 57Y4536, i think
10:06:25 * oerjan thinks there must be a market for express fakes. or something.
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10:41:43 <mroman> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNvsOOQwtPg <- any american here who would like to explain that joke to me o_O
10:43:59 <kmc> uh it's just "foreign languages sound funny if you don't understand them"
10:45:42 <mroman> Hu. I thought it would be some kind of other reference to something.
10:48:40 <kmc> i can't believe Family Guy has run for 20 seasons (if you include the carbon copy shows by the same guy)
10:49:10 <kmc> when i was in high school i thought it was funny but now it seems really bad
10:49:17 <kmc> i don't know if it got worse or my sense of humor outgrew it
10:49:18 <kmc> probably both
10:50:11 <mroman> Around here the target group is 14-30 years, so
10:51:18 <kmc> it's a profitable age group to target
10:51:20 <mroman> at least for students :)
10:51:39 <ion> I still like it. Also, it seems better than his carbon copies of it, but i watch them as well while bored.
10:52:02 <kmc> i watch a lot of bad tv when bored
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10:52:05 <shachaf> I think comedy is one of those things that can be popular without being good.
10:52:06 <kmc> i don't judge anyone else for doing so ;)
10:52:15 <kmc> shachaf: as opposed to all the other kinds of things?
10:52:32 <shachaf> Well, more than other things, I think.
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10:52:41 <shachaf> Maybe s/popular/enjoyable/
10:52:52 <kmc> it's strange because i think comedy has a more directly observable objective
10:53:12 <kmc> amusement and laughter are immediate surface-level emotions, compared to those which drama is supposed to evoke
10:53:32 <kmc> is a "bad" comedy which makes you laugh in spite of yourself really bad?
10:53:52 <kmc> there are a lot of shows where the joke is that you're watching this shit
10:53:59 <mroman> It's "we don't stop at anything"-comedy.
10:54:09 <mroman> They make AIDS Jokes and stuff like that.
10:54:44 <kmc> i don't have a moral objection to being shocking like that, but it's often something bad comedy leans on
10:54:51 <mroman> which of course is... well... a two sided blade.
10:55:06 <kmc> and family guy might have been edgy when it first aired, but they've been doing the same shit for 10 years now?
10:55:39 <kmc> i mean comedy is all about subverting expectations
10:55:55 <kmc> if the expectation is that everything is a shocking aids joke then pretty soon they all seem pedestrian
10:56:26 <kmc> but yeah, i haven't seen much of the show in many years, so i can't really comment on whether their sense of humor has evolved
10:56:33 <shachaf> There are some jokes you can always make that on average people will always laugh at and there's not really much point to it.
10:56:41 <mroman> Comedy usually always relies on someone beeing hurt.
10:56:55 <mroman> It's very hard to make a joke without insulting somebody.
10:57:00 <shachaf> For that matter good comedy isn't really made of "jokes".
10:57:07 <ion> I still enjoy the Family Guy “like the time when I…” bits, for instance, even though they’ve nothing new.
10:57:07 <kmc> mroman: that's not really true
10:57:16 <kmc> it's one element of comedy but it's neither necessary nor sufficient
10:57:48 <mroman> I can't think of any joke that would not fall into that category.
10:57:58 <kmc> well your basic puns don't
10:57:59 <shachaf> kmc: You should read that one book by Keith Johnstone.
10:58:03 <kmc> unless the person being hurt is the person who hears the pun ;)
10:58:50 <kmc> but also, what about the mitch hedberg style
10:59:02 <kmc> short observations, often of a surreal nature, sometimes subverting expectations
10:59:19 <mroman> You can't make fun of somebody without the chance of hurting him.
10:59:25 <mroman> There sure are other forms of comedy, agreed.
10:59:29 <kmc> why do you think comedy is only about making fun of somebody?
10:59:37 <kmc> http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/m/mitch_hedberg.html
10:59:53 <kmc> who does this style now... demitri martin maybe?
10:59:57 <mroman> But the tv shows pretty much seem to be based on that sort of comedy.
11:00:05 <kmc> mroman: Family Guy is...
11:00:27 <mroman> But consider pantomimic comedy.
11:00:30 <kmc> i think you have a point though
11:00:44 <shachaf> "Every time I go and shave, I assume there's someone else on the planet shaving. So I say, 'I'm gonna go shave, too.'"
11:00:44 <kmc> that situation-based comedy is much easier to do if someone's the butt of the joke
11:00:50 <mroman> If he pretends to fall down the stairs he's making fun of people who actually did fall down the stairs.
11:01:01 <kmc> and TV comedy is going to be more situation-based than standup
11:01:02 <mroman> even though this was not really his intention, but still.
11:01:23 <shachaf> mroman: Are you going to deconstruct falling down the stairs now?
11:02:17 <kmc> there is a reason why most successful sitcoms have some if not most main characters who are just terrible people
11:02:22 <mroman> I'm just saying that you hardly can make comedy without offending someone somewhere in the world.
11:02:33 <kmc> mroman: you're wrong
11:03:00 <kmc> for any statement you can probably find someone who is offended
11:03:04 <kmc> but that's not what you were saying before
11:03:18 <kmc> you can certainly tell jokes where the humor is not based on offending or hurting any real or imagined party
11:03:29 <kmc> and this is a pretty big subset of comedy, it's not a tiny niche like you make it out to be
11:04:05 <shachaf> "I want to get a vending machine, with fun sized candy bars, and the glass in front is a magnifying glass. You'll be mad, but it will be too late."
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11:11:58 <kmc> grr, need to find a copy of _Louie_ season 3 premiere
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12:27:41 <itidus21> to generalize, theres probably nothing you can do or avoid doing which won't offend someone somewhere
12:30:27 <itidus21> if you support one political party or candidate, you might offend supporters of another political party or candidate.
12:31:22 <itidus21> if you support capitalism you might offend communists, vice versa. if you support police you might offend people who don't like them
12:32:46 <itidus21> of course trivially offended people might be misguided
12:39:53 <kmc> yeah, some people are too easily offended
12:40:05 <kmc> but also, some comments really are offensive and ought to be condemned by civilized society
12:42:10 <kmc> there is a common sentiment that being offended by anything is unreasonable
12:43:13 <kmc> this sentiment is particularly common among straight white men, who are rarely the target of serious racist / sexist / etc. comments
12:43:40 <kmc> and it's particularly common in technical communities, programmers etc.
12:43:49 <kmc> maybe just because of the demographics of those communities
12:44:15 <kmc> maybe because we like to think of ourselves as hyper-rational post-emotional robots
12:44:23 <kmc> we're too smart to be offended, right
12:45:05 <Gregor> It comes from a completely broken social more that people should respect everyone.
12:45:15 <Gregor> Which is a very dangerous precedent.
12:49:08 <kmc> applying postel's law would say that you should try not to be offended by others, but you should also try to avoid offending others
12:49:16 <kmc> a lot of technical communities follow only the first half of that
12:51:09 -!- MSleep has changed nick to MDude.
12:52:59 <kmc> in fact they make offending others out to be a virtue
12:53:23 <kmc> if you can act like an asshole and still get your patches merged, it's social proof of your eleet coding skills
12:55:13 <kmc> but any social signal is vulnerable to mimicry
12:55:35 <kmc> so over time these projects attract assholes who don't actually provide value, or not enough to offset their unpleasantness
12:59:06 <itidus21> I think (but probably don't practice) that a big part of being a good person (at a computer) involves actualizing ideals on the moment to moment micro level rather than the day by day macro level.
13:00:08 <kmc> interesting!
13:00:11 <kmc> can you elaborate?
13:00:39 <itidus21> but somehow this can go wrong, trying to be something can lead to feeling like you're not being yourself, or that you're sublimating your needs only to vent them later
13:01:13 <itidus21> kmc: well for example, a person can become an ideal chatter in any given post
13:07:14 <itidus21> like, instead of thinking "i should say something nice today", one might think "i will say something nice in my next post"
13:11:07 <kmc> why is one preferable to the other?
13:11:17 <itidus21> "i should X today".. "i will X in my next post" where X = {"try not to offend anyone","try not be offended by anyone",...}
13:11:37 <itidus21> the latter is moee likely to happen
13:12:19 <itidus21> also.. to highlight that the latter may be possible (but not always)
13:14:11 <kmc> that makes sense
13:15:45 <itidus21> it would be nice to think people were trying to optimize the way they meet their needs.. but i'm out of touch with how people actually think
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13:26:19 <itidus21> so, part of what i am saying is that the difficulty of doing good varies with respect to time
13:31:18 <itidus21> it is easier to give money when you have money(debatable), and easier to be nice to someone when they are being nice to you
13:32:02 <itidus21> easier to not be jealous of someone when they are worse off than you
13:41:00 <itidus21> as i inferred from jackie chan's biography, intense training by a wise person can seem like abuse, but the difference is the intention
13:41:23 <itidus21> real abuse is designed to weaken and not strengthen.
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13:51:59 * itidus21 is reading about closures, decides to take a break after the first paragraphs and reflect
13:54:50 <itidus21> so on the set of lowercase alphabet, you might have, after(a) == b, before(k) == j, and before() and after() would be closed on the lowercase alphabet so long as it loops where before(a) == z
13:55:18 <itidus21> but if it didn't loop then you would get some kind of empty element for before(a)
14:00:40 <itidus21> but in addition as seen with, uppercase(w) == W , closure of lowercase alphabet with respect to uppercase() would be the uppercase alphabet (had to carefully read wiki forming this sentence)
14:04:05 <fizzie> Sounds more likely that the closure would be the union of both lowercase and uppercase.
14:07:00 -!- Patashu has changed nick to Patashu[Zzz].
14:07:18 <itidus21> i can't see any good reason that teeth have nerves
14:08:25 <itidus21> i suppose we would chew on things we shouldn't otherwise
14:10:38 <itidus21> actually it blew my mind that operand(N, N) is not always equal to N
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14:11:54 <itidus21> so add can be N <- add(N,N) .. but subtraction of two N's is Z <- sub(N, N)
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15:32:05 <mroman> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_constants/Crunchfuck <- somebody please delete this page?
15:32:12 <mroman> or move it to a better name
16:10:23 <Taneb> Man, I need to actually finish Trine sometime
16:40:31 <mroman> Beautiful game, but does not run on my average machine :(
16:46:40 <Taneb> An episode of NCIS reminded me of it for reasons that only apply to me
16:47:04 <Taneb> (I was playing Trine and watching it at the same time)
16:47:14 <Taneb> AND NOW I SHALL TAKE A LONG WALK AND HAVE DINNER
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16:48:21 <Sgeo> Don't play Trine. Just listen to the soundtrack
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18:44:28 <zzo38> They do not allow you to put moderators or yourself on ignore list!
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18:54:42 <oerjan> <mroman> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_constants/Crunchfuck <- somebody please delete this page? <-- the only people who can do that are elliott and ais523, and neither is here at the moment (and elliott seems to think this channel isn't worth joining lately)
18:55:08 <oerjan> well the only people that are usually on this channel
18:55:53 <oerjan> also you can do moves yourself, just not delete the automatic redirect left there
18:57:13 * oerjan keeps being taken aback everytime he reads "trine", because it's a common norwegian girl name
19:00:17 <oerjan> <kmc> there is a common sentiment that being offended by anything is unreasonable <-- it is not unreasonable to be offended by someone _trying_ to offend you. otherwise i'm not so sure.
19:01:12 <oerjan> of course being able not to be offended even in the former case is an immensely useful skill, for those who can manage it.
19:17:42 <kmc> if somebody expresses their honest opinion that whites are the superior race, i will be offended and lose my respect for them
19:18:00 <kmc> it doesn't matter if they're trying to offend me, or if they're just explaining their views in earnest
19:18:29 <kmc> i'm offended by the shit treatment of women in technical communities, even though most of that is not consciously intended to offend anyone
19:20:21 <copumpkin> what's frustrating is how defensive everyone gets when you point it out to them
19:20:34 <copumpkin> and how much rationalization instantly follows
19:21:43 <kmc> and blaming the people who got offended for being offended is one of the main defensive mechanisms
19:22:01 <copumpkin> I've almost tried to stop using the word offense when dealing with people I think aren't receptive
19:22:17 <kmc> that seems like a good idea
19:22:18 <copumpkin> since people will knee-jerk and write it off as "aww, are someone's feelings hurt?"
19:22:28 <kmc> pfft, feelings are so uncool man
19:22:49 <copumpkin> much more productive to just call them an asshole o without using the O word at all ;)
19:23:47 <edwardk> i find your ability to be offended offensive or something
19:29:54 <oerjan> mroman: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALinkSearch&target=*.ibone.ch&namespace= shows up some more links
19:31:19 <oerjan> @tell mroman http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALinkSearch&target=*.ibone.ch&namespace= shows up some more links
19:33:33 <lambdabot> mroman: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
19:41:57 <mroman> @tell lambdabot Thanks.
19:42:50 <fizzie> Nice try, being friendly like that.
19:42:57 <mroman> Can it recommend movies yet?
19:43:40 <itidus21> kmc, compumpkin: you guys should see a scene in 21 jump street, where these old guys returning to high school learn that it's no longer cool to be an asshole :P
19:44:01 <itidus21> i know it's idealized, but it's funny
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20:29:32 <ion> Field testing of my latest prototype squirrel feeder http://youtu.be/lunksapjAEI
20:30:49 <fizzie> Is it, in fact, yours?
20:31:52 <ion> Nah, i just quoted the text.
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20:39:36 <fizzie> 025*").kcats eht no rotanimret gnirts ticilpxe na tup sremmargorp egnufeB suoitneicsnoc llA( !dlrow ,olleH">:#,_@
20:39:42 <fizzie> (Actually, I think it's just me.)
20:46:46 <mroman> > (permutations "Hello") !! 8
20:47:11 <mroman> No one of you got the right answer for the Hello lottery.
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20:52:10 <fungot> \o| |o| |o/ \m/ \m/ |o/ \o/ \o| \m/ \m/ \o| |o| |o/
20:52:11 <myndzi> | | | `\o/´ | | | `\o/´ | | |
20:52:11 <myndzi> /´\ /'\ /'\ | /| /| /| | /| >\ /|
20:52:21 <asiekierka> why did fungot begin and myndzi finish
20:52:22 <fungot> asiekierka: that could be one choice
20:52:45 <Taneb> asiekierka, because fungot triggers myndzi's feature
20:52:46 <fungot> Taneb: see you all around, and i'm not sure what you mean, a sequence of uppercase characters counts as a
20:53:07 <Taneb> That's like `echo ^foo, but actually works
20:53:30 <asiekierka> |o| |o| |o| |o| |o| |o| |o| |o| |o| |o| |o| |o| |o| |o| |o| |o| |o| |o| |o| |o|
20:53:49 <asiekierka> \o| |o| |o/ \o| |o| |o/ \o| |o| |o/ \o| |o| |o/ \o| |o| |o/ \o| |o| |o/
20:54:00 <Taneb> You want to start with a space
20:54:05 <asiekierka> \o| |o| |o/ \o| |o| |o/ \o| |o| |o/ \o| |o| |o/
20:54:05 <myndzi> | | | | | | | | | | | |
20:54:05 <myndzi> |\ /^\ /< >\ /< /< /< /< >\ /< /`\ >\
20:54:16 <asiekierka> |o| |o| |o| |o| |o| |o| |o| |o| |o| |o| |o| |o| |o| |o| |o| |o| |o| |o| |o| |o| |o|
20:54:28 <Taneb> Maybe it's too long?
20:54:35 <Taneb> You'd have to ask myndzi
20:54:39 <fizzie> It does have some limits.
20:55:56 <fizzie> It's a "the sky is falling" posture.
20:56:52 <fizzie> Lots of beheadings there.
20:58:52 <fizzie> Also what's the conceptual difference between the /^\ /´\ /`\ legs?
20:59:49 <mroman> girl, left-wearer, right-wearer?
21:00:22 <mroman> leftdresser, rightdresser?
21:01:00 <fizzie> I was wondering if it was that.
21:20:13 <kmc> more like /|\
21:21:16 <Vorpal> hey, it seems for unknown reason I got a gift card on steam (in the steam inventory thingy) for a game I already own (got it as part of an indie royale bundle, wasn't interested in that specific game in the bundle)
21:21:23 <Vorpal> if anyone want "Nuclear Dawn", just tell me
21:21:25 <zzo38> http://nesdev.parodius.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?p=96267#96267
21:21:46 <fizzie> kmc: As long as it's not /¦\, that sounds painful.
21:21:48 <Vorpal> it is a FPS/RTS crossover
21:21:52 <mroman> if you bend it you can at least still walk
21:22:03 <mroman> /|\ <-walking like this would be seriously difficult.
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21:29:03 <zzo38> What is your opinions about the Famicom-MIDI document that I wrote?
21:33:24 <fizzie> If anyone wants... uh, what was it called? Right, "Men of War: Vietnam". That. I could give that away. (Since apparently you're not allowed to sell Steam gifts.)
21:34:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, heh, what is that game?
21:34:20 <fizzie> Some sort of a game about men being at war, in Vietnam, I believe.
21:34:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, I never heard of it
21:34:30 <fizzie> It may involve shooting.
21:35:04 <fizzie> "-- a 2009 real-time tactics video game and the sequel to Faces of War. Players issue orders to and/or take direct control of soldiers on a simulation-driven battlefield."
21:35:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, is the "Vietnam" thing a DLC or something? I can't find a wikipedia page on that
21:35:55 <fizzie> It's a stand-alone expansion.
21:36:04 <fizzie> Mentions it on the page.
21:36:12 <fizzie> "Four standalone expansions were released for Men of War: Red Tide, Assault Squad, Vietnam, and Condemned Heroes."
21:36:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, how did you get that gift?
21:36:52 <fizzie> In that holiday coal whatever thing.
21:37:05 <Vorpal> I got this random one recently
21:37:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, I take it you aren't interested?
21:37:54 <fizzie> I'm not so much RTS or FPS, so I doubt a hybrid would really go much better.
21:38:17 <Vorpal> I did enjoy Deux Ex: Human Revolution though
21:38:50 <Vorpal> need a good single player experience for me to be interested
21:39:03 <Vorpal> not much of a competitive multiplayer fan
21:39:23 <fizzie> Aw, this was a very nice sanity check to make:
21:39:24 <fizzie> Windows is hibernated, refused to mount.
21:39:32 <fizzie> I probably would've ruined something otherwise.
21:39:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, yeah I'm not that interested in men of war, I'm sure someone else could have more use of it
21:39:36 <itidus21> since fizzie himself doesn't want it he probably knows it will be hard to find anyone he knows who wants it
21:40:45 <fizzie> Also, did we-as-in-the-channel have someone from Belgium? I vaguely recall we did.
21:41:00 <Vorpal> check the logs of joins for *.be?
21:41:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, you have a snazzy database for it after all
21:41:30 <fizzie> Oh, it was AnotherTest.
21:41:43 <fizzie> At least if the hostname is to be trusted.
21:41:45 <itidus21> Vorpal: i had the same talk with my brother.. he mentioned, that an mmo he was playing had a gift thing that you could play for a month or something.. and when i felt awkward saying no he explained that i didn't have to explain myself etc
21:42:13 <Vorpal> itidus21, I didn't feel awkward
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21:44:03 <fizzie> Hey, it's leap second time real soon.
21:44:15 <itidus21> its an awkward sector of the social protocol that we can feel kind of awkward if we turn something down, even if it's an unwanted gift being passed along
21:44:31 <fizzie> Well, "real soon" but soonishly anyway.
21:44:35 <fizzie> (June 30, 2012, at 23:59:60 UTC.)
21:44:53 <Vorpal> "Låt dina tänder vara din tungas stängsel" ("Let your teeth be the fence of your tongue", a Swedish idiom, iirc originating from some famous collection of stories (along the same level of famous as the Icelandic "edda"))
21:45:13 <olsner> Vorpal: I have never heard that
21:45:23 <Vorpal> olsner, I have heard it many times
21:45:42 <Vorpal> itidus21, like Beowulf iirc
21:46:09 <itidus21> i have la fontaine's fables by my bedside
21:46:21 <Vorpal> olsner, jag växte upp med en mor som läst literaturvetenskap dock
21:46:27 <Vorpal> olsner, so that might have influenced me
21:46:50 <olsner> Vorpal: my family only reads fantasy and sci-fi
21:47:10 <FireFly> I don't recognize that idiom either
21:47:52 <Vorpal> might not be exactly the correct wording
21:48:01 <fizzie> There's also apparently a leap second (well, NTP + adjtimex-related) Linux kernel bug crashing computers today.
21:48:19 <itidus21> i have a series of thoughts sometimes 1)reading a foreign text translated into english 2)the original sense of the text is probably lost in translation 3)if i knew the foreign language i could more fully appreciate the text 4)i don't appreciate any text in english so greatly so this is all probably a fallacy
21:48:44 <fizzie> olsner: http://serverfault.com/questions/403732/anyone-else-experiencing-high-rates-of-linux-server-crashes-today and first answer.
21:48:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, when did that happen? My laptop has been running linux with ntp fine today
21:49:06 <fizzie> 00:44 < fizzie> Well, "real soon" but soonishly anyway.
21:49:06 <fizzie> 00:44 < fizzie> (June 30, 2012, at 23:59:60 UTC.)
21:49:20 <fizzie> (But apparently the crashes don't necessarily happen right then.)
21:49:28 <itidus21> the leap second causes crashes?
21:51:07 <Vorpal> do I need to be worried?
21:51:59 <fizzie> Well, the LKML post about the fix is from March this year. Presumably newer kernels might not have problems. (Though the original question mentions a 3.2.21, so who knows.)
21:52:41 <Vorpal> err 2.6.39 actually, 2.6.31 is the stock kernel
21:53:20 <fizzie> Well, there's that workaround in the question. Though I haven't noticed any problems with my computers which aren't running that new kernels either, and they do NTP.
21:53:26 <itidus21> so you know how notch is planning to have some kind of ingame computer on something, well, it occurs it could be funny if such an ingame computer could crash
21:54:22 <fizzie> "ntpd therefore calls adjtimex sometime during the day of the leap second, at which point this bug is triggered." I guess you'll know if you hit it in about two hours.
21:54:34 <Vorpal> itidus21, yes in 0x10c right?
21:54:37 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: postlogs: not found
21:54:52 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pastlogs: not found
21:55:49 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.12886
21:55:53 <fizzie> The "DCPU-16" in it seemed kinda funny, it's got stack things (push, pop, peek) as an addressing mode.
21:56:26 <zzo38> I thikn stack operations could be good for addressing mode
21:57:22 -!- oerjan has set topic: Leaping into the future, second by second | Where we decide just how much you can shoot someone, and their little dog too. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | This is what the bfjoust hill will look like under the new scoring system: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=XEWnVMg8.
21:58:33 <fizzie> Oh, I'm not complaining, just that it seems funny. Though it also makes me wonder what "ADD PUSH, POP" etc. would do. I don't think it explicitly specifies evaluation order or when exactly the post-increment/pre-decrement are done.
21:59:01 <zzo38> Probably you have to pop first, and then push
21:59:38 <zzo38> As far as I can tell it should mean pop both operands and push the result, but I don't know
22:00:09 <oerjan> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaa
22:00:47 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.1376
22:01:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, well I went for the safe approach and just unset the flag (and stopped ntp)
22:01:18 <Vorpal> I will enable it again tomorrow I guess
22:02:01 <olsner> but if the flag is set and your machine is still running, that means you're fine?
22:02:01 <fizzie> I'm guessing it would do the same as ADD PEEK, PEEK. But, you know, if it were a real hardware CPU, it might be very possible something unexpected happened, because they wouldn't expect two stack-affecting operands in the same instruction.
22:02:56 <oerjan> itidus21: doesn't seem to be a frequent subject here :P
22:03:08 <Vorpal> <oerjan> wait, i survived <-- huh?
22:03:41 <oerjan> forgot about time zone
22:03:57 <Vorpal> oerjan, just run adjtimex and check if the flag is set
22:04:05 <Vorpal> if it is, run it again as root to unset it
22:04:19 <oerjan> i'm not sure that's such a good idea on windows.
22:04:34 <Vorpal> oerjan, doubt windows is affected by it
22:05:01 <fizzie> Oh, I thought it was a general "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaa, a leap second", not related to the bug.
22:05:08 <fizzie> They can be pretty scary.
22:05:14 <zzo38> I am playing this computer game on X-BIT it says: THIS EVENT FEATURES 4 ROUNDS OF BOXING.. USING THE 10 POINT MUST SYSTEM OF ROUND SCORING. THE 3 KNOCKDOWN, TECHNICAL KNOCKOUT RULE IS IN EFFECT THERE WILL BE NO STANDING 8 COUNT AND THE BOXERS CAN BE SAVED BY THE BELL.. NOW, LET'S HAVE A GOOD CLEAN FIGHT! << Enter to Proceed >>
22:05:26 <zzo38> I do not completely understand what all of those things means
22:06:43 <itidus21> feb 18th 2012 <itidus20> i had an idea once which i have not discarded about having a computer as an ingame object akin to a potion, a sword, a key or a shield. "0x10c (stylized as 0x10c) is a sandbox-type game currently under development by Markus "Notch" Persson of Mojang. It was announced via Twitter by Notch on April 3, 2012." yeah!
22:07:06 <Vorpal> <fizzie> They can be pretty scary. <-- really?
22:07:17 <itidus21> <itidus20> I actually got this idea (unconcious plagiarism) from someone asking the naruto comic artist if he would ever put computers in the naruto world, and he said something like, well maybe 8bit
22:07:26 <zzo38> I figured out some of it, such as: If you knock out your opponent for ten seconds before time up then you win instantly otherwise they do by score. But I do not understand how the score is figured out.
22:08:08 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, a 61st second. It is kinda freaky.
22:08:41 <fizzie> Though other people do hold leap second parties. It takes all kinds.
22:09:02 <fizzie> It's a one-second party, as I understand it.
22:09:13 <Vorpal> okay that is kind of awesome
22:09:15 <fizzie> Probably just time enough to go "wheeee!"
22:09:17 <Vorpal> I just thing (baring crashes) it is a non-event.
22:09:24 <kmc> how many shots can you take in 1 second
22:09:27 <itidus21> i shall not allow notch to be a better game designer than me
22:09:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, I don't understand the point in going "wheee" in general
22:09:43 <Vorpal> it is such a strange sound
22:10:02 <Vorpal> kmc, automatic or semi-automatic?
22:10:13 <kmc> hey man, nice shot
22:10:44 <Vorpal> oh, you meant as in drinking
22:10:49 <Vorpal> I didn't even think of that XD
22:11:08 <fizzie> Vorpal's parties involve more gunfire than drinking, I think.
22:11:11 <zzo38> I do not understand how the score is figured out in this game. Do ropes affect the score? Does the score affected by if you knocked out your opponent temporarily? The only thing I understand is that whoever has more points wins, and if the score is equal then it is called a draw
22:11:19 <Vorpal> fizzie, well I don't drink any alcohol
22:11:31 <fizzie> Do you shoot guns much?
22:11:47 <itidus21> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BorQ_ULcvss
22:12:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, outside video games? I once tried an air gun many years ago.
22:12:21 <Vorpal> other than that? never
22:13:01 <fizzie> Well, it's not *much* more gunfire than alcohol, then, but maybe a tiny little bit.
22:13:11 <Vorpal> you beat me to a comment like that
22:14:54 <Vorpal> hm, looking through video games I own on steam due to various bundles but never played I chanced upon cave story+, I heard it was good, should I play it?
22:15:36 <zzo38> They sell: Power $4400, Body $7200, Energy $1200, Morale $1600, Agility $2700, Strength $4200, Speed $2600, Instinct $3400
22:16:04 <Vorpal> wow I own so many games on steam, most of them indie
22:16:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, did you ever finish VVVVVV btw?
22:16:33 <Vorpal> or was it Deewiant who played that?
22:16:52 <Deewiant> I've played it through a couple of times.
22:16:55 <itidus21> Vorpal: well the people in #gamedev get tired of hearing my shit. but what i mean to ask is, how many % of the steam games you own have you actually played?
22:17:13 <Vorpal> Deewiant, right, I don't have the required skill for it.
22:17:41 <zzo38> Do you know about boxing? Messages are displayed such as "BREAK!!" and "He has you on ropes!" what do they do?
22:18:03 <Vorpal> itidus21, hm? I tried most at least for a bit (unless they were RTS)
22:18:27 <itidus21> Vorpal: so you would buy a game, discover it was RTS, then abandon it?
22:18:37 <fizzie> I've played it "through" as in storywise probably twice, and I think I did collect all the shiny trinkets once.
22:18:44 <zzo38> itidus21: It is game on X-BIT, so it is telnet
22:18:49 <Vorpal> itidus21, eh I would read first before I bought it. The only reason I would have an RTS would be if it was part of a bundle
22:18:54 <Vorpal> where I wanted some other games
22:18:57 <Vorpal> so indie bundle instead
22:19:21 <itidus21> it would seem pretty bizzare if you could part with cash for a game whose genre you don't know
22:19:31 <Vorpal> itidus21, oh and I didn't even bother trying Amnesia :P
22:19:38 <Vorpal> (it was part of the last humble bundle)
22:19:49 <Vorpal> I don't like horror games
22:19:58 <Vorpal> would have wasted download times on those
22:20:45 <fizzie> I don't play horror either, but LIMBO is more of a puzzle platformer with a bit of a theme.
22:20:54 <zzo38> Did you like computer game I make? I do not charge any money, and they are all public domain (including source-codes), so if you do not like it you can change it or you can discard it and lot lose any money
22:20:58 <Vorpal> itidus21, anyway some games (from bundles again) I played outside steam, on Linux for example, and I just registered the bundle redeem codes on steam as well
22:21:04 <zzo38> If you like it, then you can pay if you want, I suppose
22:21:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, I saw that spider thingy in a video, seemed like horror to me
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22:21:43 <Vorpal> hm cave story seems to have good reviews *hits install*
22:22:08 <Deewiant> Cave Story is excellent, but maybe harder than VVVVVV.
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22:22:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, if you don't own Chtulhu Saves the World you should btw. Saw it was on Android now too
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22:22:28 <Vorpal> Deewiant, it is the timing I have problems with
22:22:43 <Vorpal> I suck at any game that requires precise timing
22:22:53 <Vorpal> such as games with combo-based combat
22:23:11 <zzo38> Did you try any of my computergame?
22:23:27 <Vorpal> Deewiant, I can manage platforming just fine, as long as the timing doesn't have to be precise
22:24:09 <zzo38> Then try it. I will not charge you any money to try it
22:24:26 <Vorpal> and why should I try them? What is good about them?
22:24:58 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, it's arguably a "horror game" in that it has an atmosphere similar to what I believe those have. And yeah, the spider, I think an arachnophobic person might have actual trouble with it. (Though it doesn't really last all *that* long; then it's more circular saws and the like.) Anyway, gameplay-wise it's a puzzle-platformer, I'd say.
22:25:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, I /am/ somewhat arachnophobic
22:25:22 <zzo38> Some people have said they like these games.
22:25:26 <fizzie> Then you probably wouldn't like the spider appearances.
22:25:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, I can manage all right with the minecraft ones, because they look so different from real ones, and are fairly easy to kill
22:25:54 <Vorpal> they don't move like real ones
22:26:00 <Vorpal> that is the big difference I guess
22:27:00 <Vorpal> anyway speaking of awesome games, maybe I should play some more Avadon, I never got around to finishing that. It wasn't quite as good as the Avernum series (same company) IMO
22:27:14 <Vorpal> I guess Avernum has nostalgic value to me as well
22:27:22 <Vorpal> that of course helps a lot
22:27:24 <fizzie> "I bought this game with my friend who is an Arachniphobe and we had no idea that spiders were in this game. We bought it and started to play through. First spider scene, she's in tears and I'm really creeped out. What a great game!" (Youtube comment.)
22:27:35 <fizzie> (Oh, and I do have Cthulhu Saves the World.)
22:29:38 <zzo38> DOS game (QBASIC): http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/GAMES/cgacoll.zip cgacoll1.zip cgacoll2.zip GIVEAWAY.ZIP MUTCHNAM.ZIP
22:29:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, what do you think of it?
22:29:57 <Vorpal> zzo38, too much work to get that working
22:30:21 <Vorpal> needs to be easy to compile or run on 64-bit linux or 64-bit windows.
22:30:21 <zzo38> Windows game: xnazzyball.zip meskilb.zip DiskCatch2.zip
22:30:46 <Vorpal> since I moved away from my desktop
22:31:13 <zzo38> Source codes is available for all DOS game in QBASIC if you can get them to compile with a different compiler you may work them
22:31:17 <zzo38> Or, use a DOS emulator.
22:31:28 <Vorpal> zzo38, too much work to use a DOS emulator
22:31:28 <fizzie> Vorpal: It was nice, and nicely retro, though I for some reason I can't discern stopped partway through (probably got sidetracked), and haven't continued yet, so I've only seen part of it.
22:31:43 <zzo38> Try Windows game then, maybe that one works.
22:32:00 <Vorpal> zzo38, I'm in a different room, and I don't feel inclined to go back to my office atm.
22:32:12 <zzo38> I have no free (as in speech) compiler for Windows game but I have figured out the format somewhat
22:32:37 <Vorpal> zzo38, there is gcc for windows...
22:32:53 <Vorpal> also I have MSVC 2010 Ultimate on there
22:33:15 <zzo38> These games are not written in C, but if I have any in C or Haskell then of course they will work for any system.
22:33:26 <zzo38> Actually, I also made some MegaZeux games, and those will work on Windows and Linux.
22:33:27 <Vorpal> zzo38, they won't work on android
22:33:40 <Vorpal> hey maybe I should switch to chrome OS ;)
22:33:53 <Vorpal> btw I haven't really seen Chrome OS used anywhere yet
22:34:01 <zzo38> MegaZeux game: /mzx1/ASCMZXTO/ascmzxto.zip
22:34:06 <Vorpal> what is the target audience
22:34:17 <Vorpal> zzo38, just download, extract and run? On which platform?
22:34:23 <Vorpal> or does it need an engine installed?
22:34:39 <zzo38> For MegaZeux game, you need to install MegaZeux but you can simply unzip the MegaZeux into a directory.
22:34:55 <Vorpal> meh, I'm too lazy to mess with that atm
22:35:07 <zzo38> I have source and Windows binaries for my modification to MegaZeux, but that is also 32-bits. For Linux, including 64-bits, you can download the other MegaZeux
22:37:45 <zzo38> MegaZeux is Free software license under GNU GPL v2 or later version; the game file is public domain.
22:38:31 <Vorpal> heh, according to steamcalculator.com my steam account is worth $724.33 USD
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23:23:52 <zzo38> Vorpal: There is no target audience; it isn't for sale.
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23:30:40 <Vorpal> zzo38, did I ask for that?
23:32:01 <zzo38> Can a NES/Famicom replay data be stored in MIDI format?
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23:45:59 <ion> `words --french 50
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