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00:08:13 <b_jonas> shachaf: well, there has to be, right? otherwise -O2 would do nothing
00:09:29 <shachaf> I mean, -O2 is advertised as turning on a bunch of optimization flags, like -fthread-jumps
00:09:50 <shachaf> But some things (in particular some optimization that was buggy) can't be turned on or off piecemeal.
00:16:02 <zzo38> Yes, it has to have such a block to turn on the other flags, but that is all that it should do.
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00:36:18 <zzo38> The document for twtxt says there should be a limit of 140 characters per message. Mastodon has a limit of 500 characters. Netsubscribe specifies no limit, although the system administrator can specify a limit in bytes. Do you think 910 bytes should be sufficient?
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02:37:00 <esowiki> [[+-]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58520&oldid=58519 * Cortex * (-6) /* ProcessingJS interpreter */
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06:38:52 <zzo38> One thing that Firefox does not seem to do is if you want to enable font loading for SVG and PDF but not HTML.
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08:23:11 <b_jonas> `pbflist http://pbfcomics.com/comics/horny-cloud/
08:23:12 <HackEso> pbflist http://pbfcomics.com/comics/horny-cloud/: shachaf Sgeo quintopia ion b_jonas Cale
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08:24:29 <oren> 28 capital: Canada
08:25:56 <b_jonas> `ehlist http://eheroes.smackjeeves.com/comics/2703699/weigh-cup/
08:25:56 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ehlist: not found
08:26:19 <oren> how would one divide up the surface of the earth into 50 equally-sized pieces
08:27:14 <oren> such that as few countries as possible are on more than one or less than one piece and all pieces are contiguous
08:28:02 <oren> er, I guess it's not possible for a country to be on less than one piece so scratch that
08:28:37 <HackEso> ysaclist 82: boily shachaf
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11:11:09 <wob_jonas> Hey guys. You know 8-bit video gaming history, right?
11:11:20 <wob_jonas> I have a stupid conspiration theory, and I'd like you to tell my why it's so wrong
11:15:35 <oerjan> clearly hogwash. if i only knew 8-bit video gaming history i'd show you.
11:16:07 <wob_jonas> It looks like 8-bit games on handheld consoles (GB, GBC) have a somewhat diferent style of graphics tha 8-bit games on TV consoles (NES, SNES). The handheld ones are like a newspaper comic strip, with black outlines and colors that seem vivid now,
11:16:30 <wob_jonas> because the LCD could show those sharp black lines nicely, but you wouldn't see fine distinctions of colors.
11:17:11 <wob_jonas> Whereas TV games have finer shades because the TV shows the colors better, but no outlines, because thsoe would look bad on an old TV.
11:18:09 <wob_jonas> Now look at Earthbound. It's a NES game, but its graphics, especially the world map ones, look like they were drawn for the GBC, sort of like Pokemon.
11:19:57 <wob_jonas> I don't think that game looked good on 1990s TVs. How does that work? Is that why it became such a cult classic later, when people had good monitors, _despite_ that the game interface is clunky and later players feel that, while players at the time it was released (1994 and 1995) might not have?
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11:25:10 <oerjan> `learn You are just a second person pronoun.
11:25:12 <HackEso> Learned 'you': You are just a second person pronoun.
11:26:25 <oerjan> wob_jonas: that wouldn't be a conspiracy theory unless someone actually planned it to have that effect hth
11:26:57 <oerjan> (also, they'd have to conspire while doing so, i guess)
11:27:44 <wob_jonas> oerjan: it's sort of a conspiration theory, because I'm picking up details while ignoring others, and not really verifying the statements I say
11:27:47 <HackEso> The password of the month is most forgettable.
11:27:57 <wob_jonas> and it would be Nintendo who conspired for ... something
11:28:22 <int-e> `cwlprits password
11:28:24 <HackEso> int-̈e oerjän oerjän int-̈e int-̈e oerjän int-̈e oerjän oerjän oerjän int-̈e int-̈e oerjän oerjän shachäf oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän int-̈e shachäf shachäf oerjän boil̈y oerjän int-̈e int-̈e oerjän shachäf shachäf oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän gameman̈j int-̈e oerjän int-̈e oerjän mromän oerjän oerjän oerjän mroman̈_
11:28:36 <int-e> hmm... anybody else/
11:28:55 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: victims: not found
11:29:54 <wob_jonas> the password of the month is bulbasaur with stingers
11:30:14 <int-e> . o O ( The password of the month is PRESENTly unknown. )
11:33:25 <int-e> Hmm, how about "SCALNATUAS".
11:33:51 <int-e> @google SCALNATUAS
11:33:52 <lambdabot> https://zhidao.baidu.com/question/524866668.html
11:34:49 <int-e> Wow, unique result.
11:35:02 <int-e> `learn The password of the month is "SCALNATUAS".
11:35:05 <HackEso> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is "SCALNATUAS".
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12:03:58 <int-e> @tell oerjan "RREUIDNODLEPEHR" is an alternative but not nearly as pronouncible ;-)
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13:16:52 * ski . o O ( POTRZEBIE )
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13:31:10 <int-e> ski: hmm that doesn't seem to be following the right pattern
13:31:42 * ski has no idea what "the right pattern" would be
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13:34:33 <int-e> something with parity
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14:24:59 <esowiki> [[User:Cortex]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58521&oldid=58423 * Cortex * (+62)
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14:55:06 <ais523> has anyone looked at The Waterfall Model Online yet?: http://nethack4.org/esolangs/waterfall/
15:02:47 <esowiki> [[+-]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58522&oldid=58520 * Cortex * (+62) /* +-=*/!# */
15:04:36 <esowiki> [[User:Cortex]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58523&oldid=58521 * Cortex * (+5)
15:12:32 <wob_jonas> ais523: see above about my stupid question on 8-bit video game history
15:12:57 <ais523> I saw it but don't have enough information to answer
15:13:24 <wob_jonas> ais523: ah, so there's a good reason why I didn't know that Waterfall Online page existed. you only linked it from the wiki today. I didn't just miss it or something.
15:13:48 <ais523> it's been up for a little longer than that but was too unfinished to be worth linking
15:14:05 <ais523> it's still unfinished, really, but I've stopped actively working on it because I need to get better at The Waterfall Model first :-D
15:28:12 <esowiki> [[Precognition]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58524&oldid=58070 * Ais523 * (-183) /* Syntax */ remove the exceptionn for type inference; it probably doesn't help much and might trigger unintentionally
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18:39:09 <lambdabot> int-e said 6h 35m 10s ago: "RREUIDNODLEPEHR" is an alternative but not nearly as pronouncible ;-)
18:42:01 <oerjan> darn i read ahead in the logs and now i feel spoilered :(
18:42:31 <oerjan> int-e: i tried too hard to decipher it as an acronym
18:44:09 <oerjan> `scramble it should have been not like this, anyway
18:44:10 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: scramble: not found
18:44:16 <oerjan> ^scramble it should have been not like this, anyway
18:44:16 <fungot> i hudhv enntlk hs nwyaya,itei o ebea lost
18:44:28 <oerjan> ^unscramble it should have been not like this, anyway
18:44:29 <fungot> iyta wsyhnoau l,ds ihhatv ee kbiele nt on
18:59:08 <int-e> Oh I was unaware of or forgot about \^(un)?scramble, not sure which.
19:09:06 <int-e> not this one, hmm?
19:09:18 <fungot> int-e: just keep trying to imitate with other bots?
19:10:04 <int-e> fungot: perhaps, if there were any other bots to talk to...
19:10:05 <fungot> int-e: so if you have ( define blah ( pi 2) supposed to do. for example, when theres a question or two
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19:10:15 <int-e> and back to normal.
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19:16:00 <shachaf> There's a book at the used bookstore here called "fizzics"
19:21:15 <int-e> does it do kwantum?
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19:53:59 <esowiki> [[Alchemist]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58525&oldid=58503 * Plokmijnuhby * (+4) /* 0-Rules */ Minor typo.
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20:15:33 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58526&oldid=56540 * ShareMan * (+2700)
20:15:54 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58527&oldid=58526 * ShareMan * (-2700) Blanked the page
20:21:33 <esowiki> [[HARSH]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58528 * ShareMan * (+2832) Created Page "HARSH" for the programming language HARSH
20:22:15 <esowiki> [[HARSH]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58529&oldid=58528 * ShareMan * (-2) fixed typo
20:24:16 <esowiki> [[2B]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58530&oldid=31957 * Gamer * (+86)
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20:40:25 <fizzie> That wasn't me, but I actually used "Fizzle" as my nick before the current one.
20:41:57 <oerjan> maybe you were time traveling.
20:43:49 <int-e> hmm, then "were" may not be applicable.
20:45:25 <oerjan> sorry, i don't have a copy of dan streetmentioner handy
20:45:41 <int-e> "Most readers get as far as the Future Semi-Conditionally Modified Subinverted Plagal Past Subjunctive Intentional before giving up."
20:47:14 <int-e> oerjan: Oh you actually remember the name... I only recalled the concept.
20:47:33 <HackEso> dan streetmentioner? ¯\(°_o)/¯
20:48:08 <int-e> b_jonas: "The major problem [of time travel] is quite simply one of grammar, and the main work to consult in this matter is Dr Dan Streetmentioner's Time Traveller's Handbook of 1001 Tense Formations." -- Douglas Adams
20:52:07 <int-e> oerjan: in fact I grepped for "get far as the" ;-)
20:52:19 <int-e> oerjan: sorry, "get as far as the"
20:57:48 <oerjan> `le/rn tense formation//See pitchfork mob
20:57:50 <HackEso> Learned 'tense formation': See pitchfork mob
20:59:40 <oerjan> `le/rn pitchfork mob//Pitchfork mobs tend are a major danger to time travelling grammarians.
20:59:42 <HackEso> Learned 'pitchfork mob': Pitchfork mobs tend are a major danger to time travelling grammarians.
20:59:51 <oerjan> `le/rn pitchfork mob//Pitchfork mobs are a major danger to time travelling grammarians.
20:59:53 <HackEso> Relearned 'pitchfork mob': Pitchfork mobs are a major danger to time travelling grammarians.
21:00:42 <oerjan> `le/rn tense formation//Tense formation: See pitchfork mob
21:00:44 <HackEso> Relearned 'tense formation': Tense formation: See pitchfork mob
21:04:03 <HackEso> tenth formation? ¯\(°_o)/¯
21:04:05 <HackEso> tent formation? ¯\(°_o)/¯
21:04:32 <HackEso> bent formation? ¯\(°_o)/¯
21:04:34 <HackEso> dent formation? ¯\(°_o)/¯
21:06:39 <HackEso> rent formation? ¯\(°_o)/¯
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21:08:32 <int-e> oerjan: shouldn't it be `slwd tense formation//s/$/./
21:08:55 <int-e> or do we have an exception for "See (also)?"?
21:09:24 <HackEso> Your omnidryad saddle principal ideal golfing toe-obsessed "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty evil grinch is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it.
21:09:29 <HackEso> `1:`1 <cmd> is equivalent to `` <cmd>, except that it splits the output into irc-sized pieces. The next pieces can be viewed with `spam. See also `2. Confusingly the obvious generalization of `4. \ `5:`5 <cmd> is equivalent to repeating `` <cmd> 5 times, then splitting the output into irc-sized pieces. <cmd> defaults to "quote". See `1, `4 and `spam. Confusingly _not_ the obvious generalization of `2. \ burrito:Burritos are like Monads, according to Joe
21:09:36 <HackEso> A natural transformation is a transformation of something containing no chemicals.
21:09:59 <HackEso> That information is stored in an unnamed metal cabinet in one of the top floors of an obscure administrative building with a number that you probably never heard of.
21:11:13 <HackEso> 2/9:e. See https://byorgey.wordpress.com/2009/01/12/abstraction-intuition-and-the-monad-tutorial-fallacy/ \ =@ccc:=@ccc is a great innovation in gcc 6, kept top secret, where inline asm statements can return a value in the carry flag on x86_64. See https://gcc.gnu.org/gcc-6/changes.html which keeps this secret, https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-6.1.0/gcc/Extended-Asm.html , https://marc.info/?l=linux-kernel&m=143786977730804 . \ corkscrew:A corkscrew is a
21:11:28 <int-e> `slwd oerjan//sshazyspunctuals#referring to punctuation, of course
21:11:29 <HackEso> oerjan//Your omnidryad saddle principal ideal golfing toe-obsessed "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty evil grinch is a punctual expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it.
21:12:16 <HackEso> 3/9: downwards spiral of doom. See mapole. \ croissont supplier:See misspellings of croissant \ degeneration:The degeneration is the generation that watches the Ellen DeGeneres show. See also degenerate. \ `doag:`doag: See `hoag \ `doat:`doat: See `hoag \ `dowg:`dowg: See `hoag \ `dowt:`dowt: See `hoag \ `fetch:`fetch [<output-file>] <URL> downloads files, and is the only web access currently available in HackEgo. It is a special builtin that cannot be cal
21:12:54 <oerjan> hm it seems inconsistent.
21:12:56 <int-e> oerjan: I See no pattern so far, actually.
21:13:29 <lambdabot> https://oeis.org/A079750 Operation count to create all permutations of n dis...
21:13:29 <lambdabot> [0,4,25,156,1099,8800,79209,792100,8713111,104557344,1359245485,19029436804,...
21:14:04 <lambdabot> https://oeis.org/A007448 Knuth's sequence (or Knuth numbers): a(n+1) = 1 + m...
21:14:04 <lambdabot> [1,3,3,4,7,7,7,9,9,10,13,13,13,15,15,19,19,19,19,21,21,22,27,27,27,27,27,28,...
21:14:28 <int-e> @oeis Knuth's sequence
21:14:29 <lambdabot> https://oeis.org/A079750 Operation count to create all permutations of n dis...
21:14:29 <lambdabot> [0,4,25,156,1099,8800,79209,792100,8713111,104557344,1359245485,19029436804,...
21:14:42 <int-e> @oeis "Knuth's sequence"
21:14:42 <b_jonas> @oeis name:Knuth's sequence
21:14:43 <lambdabot> https://oeis.org/A007448 Knuth's sequence (or Knuth numbers): a(n+1) = 1 + m...
21:14:43 <lambdabot> [1,3,3,4,7,7,7,9,9,10,13,13,13,15,15,19,19,19,19,21,21,22,27,27,27,27,27,28,...
21:14:43 <lambdabot> https://oeis.org/A079750 Operation count to create all permutations of n dis...
21:14:43 <lambdabot> [0,4,25,156,1099,8800,79209,792100,8713111,104557344,1359245485,19029436804,...
21:14:59 <b_jonas> now you don't know which one of the two it answered first
21:15:04 <int-e> @oeis "Knuth's sequence"
21:15:05 <lambdabot> https://oeis.org/A007448 Knuth's sequence (or Knuth numbers): a(n+1) = 1 + m...
21:15:05 <lambdabot> [1,3,3,4,7,7,7,9,9,10,13,13,13,15,15,19,19,19,19,21,21,22,27,27,27,27,27,28,...
21:15:56 <int-e> @oeis name:"Knuth's sequence"
21:15:56 <lambdabot> https://oeis.org/A007448 Knuth's sequence (or Knuth numbers): a(n+1) = 1 + m...
21:15:56 <lambdabot> [1,3,3,4,7,7,7,9,9,10,13,13,13,15,15,19,19,19,19,21,21,22,27,27,27,27,27,28,...
21:16:45 <lambdabot> https://oeis.org/A241299 Initial digit of the decimal expansion of n^(n^n) o...
21:16:45 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,7,1,1,2,3,6,4,1,3,4,6,1,3,1,3,1,1,3,2,3,5,5,2,2,2,8,1,1,9,1,2,3,4,8,2...
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21:18:28 <b_jonas> Concrete Mathematics chapter 3.3 is where Knuth says that he's decided that A007448 shall be called Knuth numbers
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21:26:39 <HackEso> IMHO means "In My Holy Omniscience".
21:29:11 <HackEso> `hello prints variants of hello, world. To control format, pass a single letter as command-line argument. "@"=>"hello, world", "H"=>"hello, world.", P=>"hello, world!", "X"=>"hello, world,", take 1 letter later to s/h/H/, 2 letter later to s/o,/o/, 4 letter later to s/w/W/, lowercase to remove newline.
21:29:19 <b_jonas> I've just edited a stupid typo in that
21:30:14 <HackEso> 11659:2018-12-01 <b_jonäs> perl -e open$I,"<",($n="wisdom/`hello") or die; local$/; $c=<$I>; eof$I or die"e"; $c=~s!/d,/d/!/o,/o/! or die "s"; open $O,">",$n or die"O"; print $O $c or die"p"; warn "edited $f;"; \ 11658:2018-12-01 <int-̈e> slwd oerjan//sshazyspunctuals#referring to punctuation, of course \ 11657:2018-12-01 <oerjän> le/rn tense formation//Tense formation: See pitchfork mob \ 11656:2018-12-01 <oerjän> le/rn pitchfork mob//Pitchfork mob
21:31:04 <HackEso> RTF stands for Rich's Text Format, invented by Rich Burlew. In addition to plain text it supports simple stick figures.
21:31:05 <HackEso> TTF is the true typography format. All others are heretical.
21:31:10 <HackEso> A morphism is just a natural transformation between two diagrams of shape 1.
21:45:36 <esowiki> [[Chicken]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58531&oldid=57919 * Cortex * (+254)
21:46:57 <esowiki> [[Chicken]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58532&oldid=58531 * Cortex * (+2) /* Cat program */
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21:55:59 <esowiki> [[Y/N]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58533 * Cortex * (+854) Created page with "{{WIP}} '''Y/N''' is an incomplete esolang made by [[User:Cortex]]. The only keywords are <code>yes</code> and <code>no</code>. Commands are started with <code>yes[commandname..."
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22:29:18 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58534&oldid=58489 * ShareMan * (+12) /* H */ added HARSH
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23:45:47 <b_jonas> Just a reminder that the puppy hiatus on Irregular Webcomics ends in 12 hours.
23:49:00 <b_jonas> we don't list every strip since the time they appear is quite predictable: it's always 10:11 UTC on certain days of a week -- the set of days of the week when new comic appears has changed about six times, and we don't know what it will change to next though
23:51:51 <b_jonas> the puppy hiatus ends in 36 hours
23:52:17 <b_jonas> so it will probably be on W-1, W-2, W-4, W-5 again
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00:35:41 <zzo38> I thought of once a rule variation for mahjong that if you have menzentsumo it does not count 1 han but it does reduce your requirement by 1 han (reducing it normally to zero, although sometimes it will still be 1)
00:35:50 <zzo38> What do you think of this?
00:37:23 <rain1> I don't know mahjong so i can't comment
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02:03:16 <esowiki> [[Brain-Flak]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58535&oldid=54319 * Ais523 * (+355) /* External resources */ add BrainFlak::Symbolic
02:03:56 <esowiki> [[Brain-Flak]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58536&oldid=58535 * Ais523 * (+14) /* External resources */ apparently it needs the http://; also mention the implementation language
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04:31:36 <zzo38> One thing I thought of for SQLite that I don't know whether or ont it would improve anything is sqlite3_str_context() function, which returns a string building object and makes the result of the function to effectively be whatever is then appended to the string, if your program does not call sqlite3_str_reset() or sqlite3_str_finish() on it.
04:44:18 <zzo38> Also, I wrote a shell script to download and compile SQLite
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06:23:45 <zzo38> SQLite does not have a upsert that causes it to become an error if the WHERE clause does not match.
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06:46:21 <zzo38> (One idea is that after the WHERE clause of a upsert you can optionally add "ELSE ABORT", "ELSE ROLLBACK", "ELSE FAIL", or "ELSE IGNORE" (the default if none is specified, which corresponds to the current behaviour).)
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07:15:08 <zzo38> Other suggestions of rule variations of mahjong I have seen include menzenron instead of menzentsumo, and another is "reverse yakitori" where you start without yakitori but if you deal into someone's hand then you do have yakitori.
07:16:01 <zzo38> (You could also do both ways yakitori together: if you win or if you deal into someone else's hand, it can be changed; whichever one applied last is in use)
07:18:15 <zzo38> One thing I thought of also is a variant where red dora is not affected by dora indicators, even if the indicator is four of that suit
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09:48:39 <b_jonas> `makelist bobadventureslist b_jonas
09:48:41 <HackEso> makelistlist bobadventureslist: shachaf
09:48:58 <b_jonas> `bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20181201.html
09:48:59 <HackEso> bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20181201.html: b_jonas
09:49:44 <HackEso> makelistlist ehlist: shachaf
09:50:51 <shachaf> who put me on makelistlist
09:51:58 <b_jonas> shachaf: ask the mercury repo if you want to know
09:53:00 <b_jonas> zzo38: in sqlite, do these new window functions allow you to write a parenthisized subquery that returns the group_concat of a query but with values concatenated in a deterministic sort order given by an ORDER BY clause?
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15:28:35 <limbo_> Is there an explaination for the limes in the wiki logo on esolangs.org?
16:00:19 <fizzie> Not a real one. It's called "trilime", though.
16:03:37 <fizzie> https://esolangs.org/logs/2011-05-24.html#l5x 2011-05-25 21:31:34 <ais523> I think the official answer is "it's just an image Graue chose as a placeholder, and people decided they liked it"
16:34:40 <limbo_> ha! I've done that exact thing before, but with a public-domain image of a cactus.
16:50:02 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, window functions do allow you to use a deterministic sort order (unlike normal aggregate functions)
17:09:53 <zzo38> That is OK, although I think that a proper logo should be made specific for Free Hero Mesh.
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17:11:17 <ais523> regular expressions can be implemented efficiently by compiling them into NFAs
17:11:27 <ais523> is there a similar efficient compilation technique for regular expressions + backreferencess?
17:17:25 <ais523> oh, it's been shown that there almost certainly isn't: https://perl.plover.com/NPC/NPC-3SAT.html
17:17:34 <ais523> 3SAT in regex+backreference :-)
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17:35:29 <zzo38> Another thing I thought of for mahjong is to avoid rounding errors by making all hands worth 25 fu. There may be other ways to do this too though, such as not rounding at all. Since, this rounding sometimes results a hand being worth more for tsumo win than with ron win, even though it is supposed to be same.
17:36:07 <zzo38> (Different hands are still worth different amount of han, but fixed at 25 fu.)
17:36:23 <zzo38> Do you like mahjong?
17:38:57 <int-e> ais523: hmm, why 3SAT when the same code works for SAT?
17:39:16 <int-e> (CNF-SAT if you will)
17:39:28 <ais523> int-e: probably just a case of doing the minimum necessary amount of work
17:39:39 <ais523> you know that implementing 3SAT is sufficient, so you don't notice it works even without the 3
17:40:16 <oerjan> as long as they're SATisfied.
17:40:58 <ais523> that's not even really a pun? SAT is an abbreviation for "satisfaction" already
17:41:19 <int-e> but it has unSATisfactory instances... or something like that.
17:41:53 <ais523> if you wanted a pun you'd have to use SATurate or SATchel or some similarly unrelated word
17:42:02 <int-e> (fwiw, "satisfiability" is the usual term)
17:44:25 <fizzie> As famously used in the Rolling Stones song, I can't get no satisfiability.
17:45:06 <fizzie> (It's about the NP-completeness of the problem.)
17:46:20 <b_jonas> zzo38: deterministic sort order goes most of the way, good. can you use any ordinary aggregate function for that, or do you have to write a custom window function aggregate function? is the sqlite built-in function string_concat (or whatever it's called) suitable?
17:48:37 <b_jonas> ais523: re backreferences, also https://laurikari.net/tre/ is a thesis project proving that implements regular expressions with capture groups efficiently, there's obviously a lot of work done with it, it implements backreferences but for that it falls back to a slower alternate implementation,
17:49:28 <b_jonas> which also shows that at least there's no easy way to extend the implementation to backreferences, because clearly Ville Laukari has worked a lot on the theory there.
17:52:34 <b_jonas> ais523: also, there's a one-line proof that factoring reduces to regexes with backreferences: https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=510925 https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=52469
17:52:59 <b_jonas> that doesn't make it NP-complete, because factoring likely isn't, but still, it shows that we don't know a polynomial time implementation
17:53:21 <b_jonas> we can factor unary numbers in polynomial time
17:54:39 <ais523> thinking about this a bit more, I suspect regex+backreferences is implemented by a nondeterministic LBA, rather than a nondeterminstic finite state machine
17:55:14 <ais523> there's no particular reason to expect those to be fast in general, but there may be a method of implementing them efficiently in the cases that typically arise in practice
17:57:48 <b_jonas> "you know that implementing 3SAT is sufficient, so you don't notice it works even without the 3" - hehe. I have a published NP-completeness proof where I reduce to SAT, not 3-SAT specifically, because the proof automatically works for any expression reduced to conjuctive normal form.
17:58:10 <b_jonas> It's not a very useful proof, mind you, because the problem we reduce to is not something you are generally interested in.
17:59:50 <b_jonas> ais523: you can probably read Ville Laukari's book and source code for how he implements them
18:00:03 <b_jonas> and there are a few other independent implementations
18:00:11 <b_jonas> a gnu one in libc in particular
18:00:13 <ais523> many mathematicians are suspicious of P-inequivalence proof claims based on 3SAT because they often would work for 2SAT as well
18:00:30 <ais523> that might be one of the simplest ways to prove that such a proof might contain an error
18:00:59 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah, but this isn't a P-equivalence proof. this is a proof for hardness of a decision problem. 2-SAT reduces to it too, but that's not a problem.
18:01:31 <ais523> right, with proofs in that direction you don't care if they work for 2-SAT too
18:02:16 <b_jonas> I made the proof because I wanted to see why we don't know an algorithm for a certain other decision problem, only I couldn't prove hardness of that particular problem rigorously.
18:02:29 <b_jonas> So I proved hardness of a less interesting problem.
18:03:34 <b_jonas> The actual problem we're interested in might be in P for all we know, but on the other hand it need not be in R.
18:03:51 <b_jonas> It's somewhere low in the arithmetic hierarchy.
18:04:18 <b_jonas> Probably at some greek letter plus _1
18:05:04 <b_jonas> I have some reason to suspect that it might not be in R, but I can't really conjecture it.
18:05:11 <ais523> there are so many complexity classes that I keep forgetting their names
18:05:37 <b_jonas> ais523: recursive decision problems, the ones for which there's a det' algorithm that always terminates and gives correct result
18:05:48 <ais523> right, just looked it up
18:06:02 <b_jonas> at least I think some people call it R, but the naming conventions in that field are terrible
18:06:09 <ais523> decision problems that can be solved both ways, i.e. you can write a Turing machine that halts on true, and also a Turing machine that halts on false
18:06:16 <b_jonas> hopefully Knuth cleans them up at least a little in volumes 4 and 5
18:06:20 <ais523> and yes, Complexity Zoo calls it R, that's my normal source for these things
18:06:38 <ais523> (if you can write a Turing machine that halts on true, but maybe can't write one that halts on false, that's RE)
18:07:57 <b_jonas> Iirc in this case we do have a proof that it's at some particular level of the arithmetical hierarchy, but it's not obvious at first glance.
18:08:10 <b_jonas> Or maybe it is, depending on how you interpret "obvious".
18:09:13 <b_jonas> Stupid problem defined with multivariate calculus that you have to reduce to a discrete problem by a calculus theorem like the uniform continuity or some other compactness stuff.
18:11:29 <oerjan> <ais523> that's not even really a pun? <-- i considered not capitalizing SAT, would that have helped?
18:12:41 <b_jonas> Calculus if full of these things by the way. The staple example is finding arbitrarily close rational bounds for the real roots of a polynomial with integer coeffs. That one does go down with an elementary calculus argument, but you wouldn't guess the algorithm unless someone tells you.
18:13:01 <b_jonas> And I don't even know the proof for complex roots.
18:13:49 <b_jonas> I think the complex version uses Gerschgorin circles, but it could need more.
18:15:01 <b_jonas> s/Gerschgorin circles/Geršgorin circles/
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18:42:50 <ais523> come to think of it, I suspect you can run regexes in O(n**(2r+1)), where r is the number of backreferences used in the regex
18:43:24 <ais523> that wouldn't violate the boolean-satisfaction result above, because the more variables you have, the larger r gets
18:45:53 <ais523> the algorithm for doing so is trivial: for each backreference, iterate over the O(n**2) substrings of the input; for each of the sets of potential backreferences values produced, run the regular expression with the backreferences hardcoded, then verify that the capture groups match the hardcoded backreferences
18:46:46 <ais523> of course, a cubic implementation for one backreference isn't particularly "efficient", but polynomial time beats the exponential time that most implementations use
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19:16:30 <zzo38> b_jonas: All of the built-in aggregate functions can be used as window functions. If you are defining your own functions, you must define a few additional methods in order to work as a window function; such functions can also be used as ordinary aggregate functions.
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19:52:41 <esowiki> [[Ases]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58537&oldid=54842 * Gamer * (-15)
19:57:21 <esowiki> [[Symbols]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58538&oldid=39458 * Gamer * (+51)
19:58:32 <esowiki> [[SeMo-PATH]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58539&oldid=57516 * Gamer * (+0) /* Computational Class */
19:58:55 <esowiki> [[Symbols]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58540&oldid=58538 * Gamer * (+0) /* Examples */
20:09:14 <esowiki> [[A:;]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58541&oldid=46643 * Gamer * (+4) /* Commands */
20:14:56 <esowiki> [[A:;]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58542&oldid=58541 * Gamer * (+32) /* Example programs */
20:16:57 <esowiki> [[A:;]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58543&oldid=58542 * Gamer * (+6) /* Example programs */
20:17:32 <esowiki> [[A:;]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58544&oldid=58543 * Gamer * (+2) /* Example programs */
20:18:28 <esowiki> [[A:;]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58545&oldid=58544 * Gamer * (+3) /* Example programs */
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21:20:23 <b_jonas> zzo38: I know they can all be used in window function expressions. I'm asking if they are still guaranteed to be called with rows in a deterministic order.
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21:21:31 <b_jonas> ais523: lol. that definitely isn't a practical algorithm. I think you can do better, and libtre almost certainly doesn't do that.
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21:22:49 <b_jonas> Hmm... maybe you're right. For some devious backreference expressions, like /(.*)\1/, that might actually be efficient.
21:23:15 <b_jonas> No no. I think there's a linear time algorithm for finding /(.*)\1/ longest match.
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22:28:20 <int-e> b_jonas: now try the factoring thing: (..*)\1\1*
22:28:46 <int-e> oops, that should have one more .
22:29:42 <int-e> (hmm. I guess I'm counting capturing groups)
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22:50:49 <b_jonas> int-e: see above. that's for unary numbers, and we can factor unary numbers in sublinear times, even sublinear for a fixed regex, which is pretty rare for a regex that is anchored to match the whole string (it's commonplace for a regex like /^a/
22:52:21 <b_jonas> we have series of regexen (strings as regexes without anchors actually) such that we can match any in linear time, but the constant factor goes to zero as a limit
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22:54:46 <b_jonas> Even I know how to implement factoring unary in O(n**(1/4)) time because I've implemented the corresponding algorithm for integers with arithmetic available.
22:55:03 <b_jonas> well, O(n**(1/4 + epsilon)) but still
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23:47:50 <esowiki> [[HARSH]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58546&oldid=58529 * ShareMan * (-149) /* Language Overview */ Deleted interpreter info from language section, and fixed some grammar
23:50:32 <esowiki> [[HARSH]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58547&oldid=58546 * ShareMan * (+296) /* Interpreter Help */ Added info about interpreter operation
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23:54:38 <esowiki> [[HARSH]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58548&oldid=58547 * ShareMan * (+234) /* Examples */ Added new example programs
23:55:24 <esowiki> [[HARSH]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58549&oldid=58548 * ShareMan * (+2) /* Interpreter Help */ Fixed formatting
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02:24:35 <zzo38> b_jonas: I think yes, if used as window functions then it is, but not if used as ordinary aggregate functions
02:33:16 <zzo38> (I don't know if that is quite sure, but I believe so)
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05:13:48 <zzo38> I made a Fossil repository for my "netsubsc" program (the reference implementation of Netsubscribe), including man pages, and also the protocol documentation is versioned in there too. Now you can look if you want to see (perhaps you might also use) the incomplete version, and can post bug reports, and wiki.
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10:41:53 <esowiki> [[2B]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58550&oldid=58530 * Oerjan * (-86) Undo revision 58530 by [[Special:Contributions/Gamer|Gamer]] ([[User talk:Gamer|talk]]) (Pretty sure it's not, as {} isn't a loop.)
10:50:22 <esowiki> [[Brainfoctal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58551&oldid=58504 * Salpynx * (+401) /* Brainfoctal Sub-languages */ update sub-language examples, with sizes
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14:51:15 <esowiki> [[Ly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58552&oldid=53000 * Gamer * (-1) /* Calling functions */
15:10:58 <esowiki> [[Befunge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58553&oldid=58516 * Serprex * (+6) /* External resources */ fix wasm link, change github links to https
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16:50:49 <oren> I don't understand how unemplyment statistics work. If someone is only working one day a week, why do they still count as 100% employed rather than 1/5 employed. This doesn't allow me to estimate how many people have time to riot on any given weekday
16:52:29 <myname> it does so to have good looking statistics
16:53:23 <oren> Like my initial thoguht for how to estimate the probability of riots in a city building game mod
16:54:15 <Taneb> oren: maybe of interest: https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/datasets/fulltimeparttimeandtemporaryworkersseasonallyadjustedemp01sa
16:54:19 <myname> in germany, everybody in an obligatory job-searching measure that does not yield any money for participants does not count towards unemployment
16:54:20 <oren> was to take the number of potential daylight rioters as the unemployed, times a coefficient of national unrest
16:55:23 <oren> and then if that number reaches a breaking point of say 50, riots start
16:57:02 <Taneb> myname: ...then who does?
16:57:35 <myname> people without a job who aren't
16:57:58 <Taneb> But it's obligatory?
16:58:15 <myname> well yeah, it's not permanent though
16:59:20 <myname> if you get mail to do so, you better do. if you sat through it and didn't find something, you are unemployed until you find a job or the next letter arrives
16:59:41 <oren> the coefficient of national unrest would, in real life, be dependent on things like the price of bread and the political situation but in a city building game, something like the police level and whther garbage is being collected on time
17:00:30 <myname> there was this concept of a city building game in rust that looks like it won't go far, but i like some ideas
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17:26:52 <esowiki> [[MarioLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58554&oldid=49838 * Gamer * (+20)
18:12:50 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Sir Kamba * New user account
18:18:24 <oren> hwo do I do a linear regression but force the slope to be 1
18:19:33 <oren> in google calc
18:19:53 <oren> hmm, wait is that the same thing as the mean of the difference
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18:22:50 <oren> ok, hopefully =AVERAGE(A1:A80-B1:B80) is correct for calculating that
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18:31:34 <oren> AH SCREW IT (SUM(A1:A80)-SUM(B1:B80))/80
18:34:42 <oren> falcon 9 just lifted off
18:35:32 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58555&oldid=58517 * Sir Kamba * (+406) An introduction
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20:26:12 <zzo38> Would you use Netsubscribe once I will do?
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23:29:49 <esowiki> [[The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58556&oldid=58518 * Ais523 * (+1067) /* Output extension */ let's define a backwards-compatible method of output to aid debugging and so that this language can be used more practically
23:30:25 <esowiki> [[The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58557&oldid=58556 * Ais523 * (+119) /* Output extension */ clarifications
23:30:52 <esowiki> [[The Waterfall Model]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58558&oldid=58557 * Ais523 * (+6) /* External resources */ No IO Output only, now that an output extension has been defined
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01:56:08 <ais523> I'm surprisingly annoyed at the lack of boxed-slice constructors in Rust
01:56:34 <ais523> you have to go via a temporary Vec if you want one (assuming that the size isn't known at compile time)
01:56:40 <ais523> even if you know the size at runtime
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02:00:43 <ais523> even if you know the size at runtime
02:00:51 <ais523> whoops, meant to do that in my shell, not IRC
02:02:51 <zzo38> Do you know how to play poker with tarot cards or mahjong with pokemon?
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02:08:48 <esowiki> [[+-]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58559&oldid=58522 * Cortex * (+69) /* Examples */
02:15:17 <esowiki> [[Omgrofl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58560&oldid=58453 * Cortex * (-110)
02:15:39 <esowiki> [[Template:Dead memes]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58561 * Cortex * (+123) Created page with "'''WARNING''': This article contains high amounts of dead memes and outdated jokes. Please remember that before proceeding."
02:16:16 <esowiki> [[Surround notation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58562&oldid=22152 * Cortex * (+16) /* Examples */
03:01:50 <paul2520> I've been meaning to find a use for mine.
03:04:43 <zzo38> There are a number of different games played with tarot. Originally the games were trick taking games, somewhat like whist or bridge, except there is one suit of permanent trumps. In some games the Fool is the highest trump, and in some other games, you can play it at any time even if you are able to follow suit but you will always lose the trick if you play it (it is sometimes called "Excuse" in this case).
03:06:27 <zzo38> (Even though it is either the highest trump or has no numerical value, still it seems it is commonly labeled zero. Someone told me that it is zero because it represents the beginning of a journey; I can see how, although that still does not seem a good enough reason to call it zero when its value in the game isn't actually zero.)
03:14:22 <zzo38> There are a few different games you can find, actually. If you have Latin-suited cards and the rules mention French-suited or vice-versa, you can use the following correspondences: spades=swords, clubs=rods/wands, diamonds=coins (sometimes they have pentagrams printed on them; it is fine if they do), hearts=cups
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05:29:30 <zzo38> O, good, I didn't miss any
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06:35:25 <esowiki> [[HARSH]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58563&oldid=58549 * ShareMan * (+1059) Fixed computation classification, and just generally made things cleaner, easier to understand, etc.
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10:43:37 <wob_jonas> otppenztarak.hu has one of the worst authentication system I've ever seen on a website
10:44:44 <wob_jonas> the start seems sane: you enter your email address, which identifies your account, and your password, which you have set earlier. the password has some stupid restrictions on it: I think it must contain at least two digits or something stupid like that.
10:45:08 <wob_jonas> but then, it sends you a one-time token in email that is valid for 10 minutes only. who the heck thinks that everyone can receive email in 10 minutes?
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11:34:10 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58564&oldid=58302 * Salpynx * (-119)
11:35:37 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58565&oldid=58534 * Salpynx * (+11) /* A */ A-DU
11:36:21 <wob_jonas> `bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20181204.html
11:36:22 <HackEso> bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20181204.html: b_jonas
11:37:04 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58566&oldid=58565 * Salpynx * (+15) /* G */
11:41:41 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58567&oldid=58426 * Salpynx * (+80) /* General languages */ 42
11:44:10 <wob_jonas> ais523: re rust boxed slice constructors, I was confused about that at first, but it turs out that there's a really good reason why it's done this way
11:45:21 <wob_jonas> ais523: the problem is that a slice or boxed slice has the type invariant that all the elements of he slice are initialized, and you can't initialize a general type, so you can't just make a general boxed slice constructor for any type
11:47:13 <wob_jonas> ais523: however, you can initialize the elements one by one from left to right, keeping track how much is initialized. in fact, Vec does exactly that, and the rust std guarantees that a Vec allocates the contents the same way as a boxed slice. so there's a safe method that converts a Vec to a boxed slice that is guarateed to not reallocate the memo
11:47:13 <wob_jonas> ry if the Vec's size is equal to its capacity.
11:48:43 <wob_jonas> the box is effectively just a start pointer, a size and a capacity; and a boxed slice is effectively a start pointer and a size; and this pointer and size and capacity are local variables that the optimizer can see directly when optimizing your program when you fill a vec.
11:50:36 <wob_jonas> So the general way to create a boxed slice is to create a boxed vector, possibly extend it to the capacity if you know the size in advance, then push the elements from left to right, then convert it to a boxed slice, which is at that point free. You can even abort by throwing away the vec.
11:51:42 <wob_jonas> There are some convenience abstractions around this in std, but perhaps not enough, and that part of your complaint might be valid.
11:51:53 <wob_jonas> But you can write any missing abstractions yourself.
11:52:22 <wob_jonas> If you want to initialize the slice in an order different from left to right, then you're somewhat screwed though.
11:52:29 <wob_jonas> There are ways to do that, but they're not easy.
11:53:06 <wob_jonas> And they're unsafe because there's no way to prove to the compiler that you kept track of which elements are initialized correctly.
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12:02:06 <esowiki> [[APLBAONWSJAS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58568&oldid=57861 * Salpynx * (+154) /* Interpreter */ Python3 interpreter silliness
12:03:50 <esowiki> [[APLBAONWSJAS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58569&oldid=58568 * Salpynx * (+37) /* In other languages */
12:08:38 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58570&oldid=58564 * Salpynx * (+133) /* Code for languages created by others */
12:12:45 <wob_jonas> ais523: I think if you want to initialize the elements in an order other than left to right, then you're screwed. I don't see a sane way to do that and get a Box<T> from it.
12:14:08 <wob_jonas> You can use a custom container, which uses Box<[std::mem::MaybeUninitialized<T>]> for allocation and deallocation, fill the elements in place in whatever order you want, and once you're sure that all elements are initialized to a valid states, you can expose the contents as a &mut [T], and you can implement this as an unsafe method that calls mem::
12:14:08 <wob_jonas> transmute on the slice (not on the box)
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12:21:59 <wob_jonas> nope, it's even worse if the type has a destructor
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12:23:40 <wob_jonas> you need a Box<[std::mem::MaybeUninitialized<std::mem::ManuallyDrop<T>>]> for that
12:24:01 <esowiki> [[Grime MC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58571&oldid=58464 * Salpynx * (+632) Notes on macros
12:33:11 <wob_jonas> but probably only for a year or two more, I think people already want to add a single wrapper for std::mem::MaybeUninitialized<std::mem::ManuallyDrop<T>> because it's too common
12:33:34 <wob_jonas> I bet you'll find one in std within two years
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15:19:34 <esowiki> [[Element]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58572&oldid=46762 * Gamer * (+15) /* Truth-machine */
15:19:53 <esowiki> [[Element]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58573&oldid=58572 * Gamer * (+0) /* Truth-machine */
15:20:43 <esowiki> [[Element]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58574&oldid=58573 * Gamer * (+0) /* Truth-machine */
15:22:22 <esowiki> [[Element]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58575&oldid=58574 * Gamer * (-46) /* Nth Triangular Number */
15:22:40 <esowiki> [[Element]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58576&oldid=58575 * Gamer * (-2) /* Digital root calculator */
15:26:45 <esowiki> [[Element]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58577&oldid=58576 * Gamer * (-113) /* N Factorial */
15:28:15 <esowiki> [[Element]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58578&oldid=58577 * Gamer * (+0) /* Nth Triangular Number */
15:33:30 <esowiki> [[Element]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58579&oldid=58578 * Gamer * (-121) /* GCD of two numbers */
15:33:42 <esowiki> [[Element]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58580&oldid=58579 * Gamer * (+24) /* N Factorial */
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15:33:55 <esowiki> [[Element]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58581&oldid=58580 * Gamer * (+24) /* Digital root calculator */
15:36:29 <esowiki> [[Element]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58582&oldid=58581 * Gamer * (+46) /* N Factorial */
15:37:06 <esowiki> [[Element]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58583&oldid=58582 * Gamer * (+36) /* Truth-machine */
15:37:46 <esowiki> [[Element]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58584&oldid=58583 * Gamer * (-40) /* GCD of two numbers */
15:39:24 <esowiki> [[Element]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58585&oldid=58584 * Gamer * (-45) /* Nth Fibonacci number */
15:39:46 <esowiki> [[Element]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58586&oldid=58585 * Gamer * (-34) /* GCD of two numbers */
15:42:12 <esowiki> [[Element]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58587&oldid=58586 * Gamer * (+76) /* Digital root calculator */
15:44:11 <myname> talk about exeggerating
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18:29:13 <esowiki> [[4]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58588&oldid=46060 * Gamer * (-13) /* Hello World! */
18:49:51 <oren> DYK? "lockheed" is pronounced /lɒxid/
18:51:29 <shachaf> What's the c doing in there?
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20:07:40 <b_jonas> ``` for x in 0 1; do quote; done
20:07:41 <HackEso> 120) <AnMaster> cpressey, oh go to zzo's website. He is NIH <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, really? I was strongly under the impression that zzo was invented here. \ 157) <oklopol> well i just ate some stuff and watched family guy <oklopol> and i own a piano <oklopol> and i'm not wearing socks
20:07:52 <b_jonas> ``` for x in 0 1; do wisdom; done
20:07:53 <HackEso> afk//Afk wrote a famous story about hang. \ lunacy//LUNacy is wisdom generated by a neu^Wlayered unit net. Ask Warrigal for details.
20:17:46 <HackEso> 2 quote/1:/bin/sed: -e expression #1, char 4: extra characters after command \ /hackenv/bin/n: line 1: 2 quote: syntax error in expression (error token is "quote")
20:20:16 <HackEso> 1/1:412) <NihilistDandy> Non sequitur is my forte <NihilistDandy> On-topic discussion is my piano <Taneb> Bowls of sugary breakfast cereal is my mezzoforte <Taneb> Full fat milk is my pianissimo <Taneb> On which note, I'm hungry \ 937) <Bike> Are you sure this isn't the Sims <kallisti> can you get married to your variables? <kallisti> this is a feature I find lacking in most languages
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21:23:01 <ais523> does anyone know of a data structure which lets me do this?: we can add elements to the structure and it records when each element was added (new additions replace earlier additions of the previous element), and we can efficiently discover which elements have been added since a specific element was last added
21:23:28 <ais523> something like a linked deque + an index into it would work, I think, but I'm wondering if there's anything simpelr
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21:43:42 <ais523> on another note, how many languages use "if … else" (with no "then" clause) for what Perl/Ruby call "unless"?
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21:48:51 <FireFly> huh, that's an interesting syntactic idea, and makes enough sense
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21:51:53 <oren> if(x == 30);else{ }
21:52:56 <ais523> yes, it's easy enough to stick a dummy "then" part in
21:57:15 <b_jonas> ais523: hi. see logs for today about your rust question.
21:58:32 <b_jonas> ais523: I don't see how a linked deque and index would work, you'd have to update a lot of indexes. a heap and indexes could work, because you can delete any element and you only have to update log(size) number of indexes.
21:59:08 <b_jonas> hm wait, what operations exactly do you want to do
22:01:32 <ais523> the index would be a map from an element to the object representing that element inside the deque (that's why it has to be a /linked/ deque)
22:02:11 <ais523> the operations I need that can't trivially be abstracted out into a separate structure are adding an element to the structure, and getting a list of all elements added more recently than a specific element
22:02:25 <ais523> also if I add the same element repeatedly, earlier additions should be forgotten rather than leaking memory
22:02:41 <ais523> in case it helps, I know all possible elements that could be added in advance
22:03:04 <ais523> elements can be compared for equality easily (in the situation I want to use this they're just integers)
22:03:22 <ais523> I was hoping that there'd be some existing structure which supports this so that I could look for an implementation in libraries
22:03:51 <ais523> re: the Rust question discussion in logs, I was expecting something that created an /initialised/ boxed slice, e.g. by copying a given element a given number of times (like vec! does)
22:05:07 <b_jonas> ais523: oh, you mean a deque plus an dictionary with the element value as key, and an iterator into the deque as the value. that works, I was confused by "index" then
22:05:24 <b_jonas> a linked list deque that is
22:05:29 <b_jonas> so that the elements have stable nodes
22:05:32 <ais523> I meant it in the sense of "database index"
22:05:44 <ais523> of course, databases are good at this, because they're basically a general-purpose data structure
22:05:51 <ais523> but it feels like something simpler should work too
22:05:57 <esowiki> [[+-]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58590&oldid=58559 * Cortex * (+34293) /* Examples */
22:06:11 <ais523> (also I'm writing this program in Rust, and a linked deque is one of the simplest things that Rust is /really/ bad at…)
22:06:29 <b_jonas> I was thinking of a heap (such as a binary or quaternary heap) and a dictionary from the key to the index into the heap. I know you can efficiently maintain a dictionary from the element to the index in a binary heap, I've implemented that.
22:06:34 <b_jonas> it's not clear which of these is better her
22:07:36 <b_jonas> ais523: no way. you never delete elements, so you can put the deque nodes in a Vec that will never shrink, and you never waste memory, and use indexes or 32-bit indexes into that Vec for the links.
22:08:08 <ais523> b_jonas: oh, that does work, it's weird to think about using indexes rather than pointers though
22:08:22 <ais523> especially as the bounds checks happen at runtime not compile-time
22:08:29 <b_jonas> using indexes is generally a good idea because it's easy to automatically bounds checked which catches some (not all) silly mistakes with pointer stupidity, and allows you to use 32-bit indexes in a 64-bit address space
22:08:49 <b_jonas> no need to allocate each node separately
22:09:30 <b_jonas> this is the main reason why I think x32 is a silly idea. if in the structures or loops where you really need to optimize for performance, you just use 32-bit indexes, then the 64-bit pointers never bother you.
22:10:03 <b_jonas> admittedly the rust std isn't too well-suited for that, but ideally if you wrote everything in machine language, that would work, and rust or C++ allow good enough approximations.
22:11:05 <b_jonas> rust is in a slight disadvantage here, but in the very rare cases when that causes a performance problem, you just optimze the inner loop by reimplementing it in something that isn't rust.
22:11:19 <b_jonas> or give dirty hints to rust to speed it up
22:11:47 <ais523> doesn't using pointers directly, rather than index + base pointer, reduce register pressure?
22:11:51 <b_jonas> probably eventually in future rust that won't be necessary, they just add enough stuff in the compiler and std
22:12:18 <b_jonas> ais523: perhaps, but usually register pressure is less of a problem on x86_64 than L1 cache and L2 cache throughput
22:12:25 <b_jonas> and decoder throughput and stuff like that
22:12:46 <b_jonas> especially on modern x86_64
22:13:49 <ais523> now I'm wondering if simple dereferences like mov [reg], reg take up less instruction-cache pressure than complex ones like mov [base+index*4], reg
22:13:59 <b_jonas> and register throughput problems is something that has some chance of automatically fixing themselves without changing your code when you install a new compiler with a better optimizer, whereas cache throughput is less likely to do that
22:14:33 <b_jonas> ais523: that really depends on the compiler
22:15:34 <b_jonas> but you aren't likely to get [base+index*4] or [base+index*8] indexes here unless you premultiply your indexes or use avx512, because your element size is greater than 8 bytes
22:15:38 <ais523> what's "that" referring to? if it's my most recent comment, I'm talking about at the machine code → micro-op level of abstraction, well below the compiler
22:16:35 <b_jonas> instead, you'll get a silly 64-bit shift instruction to do the multiplication, and you won't be able to convince rust to optimize that a 32-bit multiplication, because you can't easily tell the compiler that the array size is less than 32 bytes.
22:17:15 <ais523> oh, I see, you're claiming that the more condensed instructions might not even be generatable
22:17:18 <b_jonas> "that" is referencing "register throughput problems"
22:17:54 <b_jonas> ais523: they might be if you premultiply your indexes or use avx512, but you rarely care that much about performance
22:18:08 <b_jonas> microoptimize your code only when it's really the bottleneck
22:21:51 <b_jonas> I'd like to note that in this case, since you always insert new elements whose weights are larger than every existing element, inserting a new element takes constant time, you're not moving anything, just pushing an element with the next weight at the end of the array
22:22:04 <b_jonas> you probably need to keep a counter tha tracks the next weight separately
22:22:36 <b_jonas> if you rarely update elements, then that's the simplest one, but since you didn't mention deleting elements, I think you want to update elements often
22:23:19 <b_jonas> mind you, adding a new element to the front of a deque is about as simple
22:23:37 <b_jonas> and the dictionary insert has about the same cost in either case
22:23:53 <ais523> you can't just keep inserting at the end of an array
22:23:57 <b_jonas> the heap won't work at all
22:24:00 <ais523> because then you'll end up growing the array forever
22:24:35 <b_jonas> ais523: but you need to grow the array when you insert a new element, as opposed to updating an element with an existing key
22:25:27 <b_jonas> ok, I think you're right. use a deque
22:27:48 <b_jonas> hmm wait, there's a trickier way
22:28:59 <ais523> I've been looking for existing Rust modules which have the right functionality; one of them uses a really clever trick
22:29:15 <ais523> the elements I'm adding are small integers
22:29:49 <ais523> and this data structure is designed for them; it basically has an array which stores the next integer and previous integer for each integer n at the nth slot
22:29:53 <b_jonas> ais523: trickier way, slower but less memory: use a singly linked list, with pointers towards older elements, and a dictionary with the value of an iterator to the previous element. when you remove an element, look up the next element by its value in the dictionary, and update that dict entry too as well as the dict entry for the element you move to the front.
22:30:28 <ais523> next /element/, previous /element/ rather than next /pointer/, previous /pointer/ (or simulating pointers using indexes) simplifies things a lot
22:30:42 <b_jonas> ais523: how many elements do you expect to have? if it's very small, like 8, then there are tricks
22:31:09 <ais523> it scales based on the size of user input
22:31:10 <b_jonas> ais523: that works only if your elements (keys) are of small size
22:31:18 <ais523> but it's consecutive from 0
22:31:28 <b_jonas> ais523: ok, so it's not like always less than 16
22:31:42 <ais523> right, in practice it'll usually be small but I don't want a hard limit
22:32:05 <ais523> (the values themselves are `usize`s)
22:32:36 <b_jonas> ais523: there's a crazy structure used in hardware caches to handle the 8-way caching that stores binom(8,2) bits and lets the hardware update one of the eight slot to make it the newest one, and find the oldest slot so it knows which element to drop when it has to insert a new one
22:33:26 <ais523> I probably won't use that, but am curious about how it works
22:33:45 <b_jonas> ais523: if it's between 8 and 64, then you might not care about asymptotic performance, and implement this as a simple vector of the integer values where you search the value with a linear search, and memmove part of the array to insert or delete something
22:34:08 <b_jonas> ais523: there's a bit for each pair of the 8 elements, and it tells whether the first one is newer than the other
22:35:17 <b_jonas> inserting a new element to a slot needs to update 8 of those 28 bits, which is somewhat easy and fast in hardware in this case
22:35:45 <ais523> oh yes, I can see how that would work now
22:36:33 <b_jonas> so much that I guess the bottleneck is not that age array, but the dispatch logic to find one of the eight elements matching the 6-bit address
22:36:53 <ais523> to be honest a linear search would probably be fast enough for me too, but it was a set of performance properties I hadn't seen before in a data structure, so it prompted me to ask here
22:38:05 <b_jonas> you need to do that address compare in each of the eight elements, then three layers of if-else to forward one of them, and then a comparison to the upper bits of the address when it arrives from the page table cache (it's not called "page table cache", it has a fancier name that I keep forgetting, but that's what it really is)
22:38:24 <b_jonas> and all of that must go through within a clock cycle ideally
22:38:36 <b_jonas> you get slightly more slack in the L2 cache
22:38:56 <ais523> this is a program I'm heavily optimising partly just for practice/curiosity/the sake of it (it's an esolang interpreter, people hyperoptimise those for brainfuck…)
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22:40:24 <b_jonas> first you find a 64-way dispatch for the right slot with 8 cache entries from the 6 middle bits of the address, and THEN when the address arrives from the page table, only then can you compare the upper lots of address bits to the eight slots and do the eight-bit dispatch
22:40:56 <b_jonas> that's why it's hard to make the latency low, since the page table cache also has a latency
22:41:11 <ais523> memory latency is a huge problem for today's computers
22:43:08 <b_jonas> I think the big problem is that until we design an entirely new architecture where we can be sure that no software depends on that pages are allowed to be 4k sized, we can't have an L1 cache larger than 32K (4K times eight). we've had CPUs with 32K L1 data cache and 32K L1 code cache for almost a decade, even though the operating systems mostly want to use 8K pages,
22:43:33 <b_jonas> and we can't fix this while we want x86 compatibility.
22:43:56 <b_jonas> it's one of these stupid historical things. 4k pages made sense back in 386 when computers had a few megabytes of memory.
22:44:09 <b_jonas> sometimes just one or two megabytes
22:44:28 <ais523> the issue isn't really so much the size of the pages, as the minimum granularity of the page table
22:44:38 <b_jonas> and larger L1 caches would help a lot
22:44:39 <esowiki> [[Doreq]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58591&oldid=58377 * Unitan * (+35)
22:44:54 <b_jonas> ais523: what do you mean by the granularity? the cache line size? I think that's fine being 64 bytes as is.
22:44:59 <ais523> if you said "the pages are 512 bytes but you can only map them in units of megabytes" people would be fine with that
22:45:05 <ais523> b_jonas: minimum size/alignment of a page map
22:45:29 <b_jonas> ais523: if you can only map them in units of megabytes, then what would the 512 byte mean? in what sense would it be a page?
22:46:40 <ais523> presumably it'd be used for things like bounds checks
22:47:00 <b_jonas> ais523: hmm, so you'd have a size entry in each page? why's that useful?
22:47:12 <b_jonas> I mean, it could be done, but I don't see the point
22:47:50 <ais523> well, what's the purpose of a page?
22:48:09 <ais523> sometimes it's for memory allocation purposes, sometimes it's to get useful side effects from the page faults
22:48:18 <ais523> you could divorce the two, I think
22:48:39 <b_jonas> ais523: for a cpu page, which is what we're talking about here, it's mapping from virtual memory address space (of a process) to "physical" memory address space in a way that the cpu dispatches the mapping automatically at every ordinary memory access
22:49:45 <b_jonas> "physical" address ideally means what's sent to the main memory, but it could be different if there's virtualization or legacy 32 bit large memory shenanigans involved
22:50:30 <ais523> right, and I don't see why virtual→physical mapping would need a small granularity nowadays unless you're intentionally overlapping pages in weird ways
22:51:33 <b_jonas> ais523: anyway, if you add a size field to a page, and you set it to less than maximum size, then you're probably wasting the rest of the physical page, because it's unlikely that you'll quickly find another partial page that you can allocate in the same place that has just the right page size alignment
22:52:23 <ais523> b_jonas: OK, so what about a setup that works like this: you can set up virtual→physical maps which have a large minimum size and alignment, but you can "mask" parts of a virtual page so that they pagefault when accessed
22:52:31 <ais523> rather than going to the physical page behind
22:52:37 <b_jonas> it could perhaps be useful for catching some stack overflows
22:52:57 <ais523> then you can effectively split a physical page between multiple virtual pages as long as the low bits in the virtual addresses are all distinct from each otehr
22:53:00 <b_jonas> but I don't think that's likely useful
22:53:17 <b_jonas> it would just make so that we have to automatically extend the stack more often than once every few pages
22:53:54 <b_jonas> ais523: make part of a page masked to unreadable? perhaps, but I don't really think it's worth the cost.
22:54:32 <ais523> b_jonas: well, the point is you have to pay this cost anyway when you have small pages
22:54:38 <ais523> so this is saving part of the cost
22:54:44 <b_jonas> ais523: I mean, then you'll need extra bits in the page table cache, which is something that has to be really close to the L1 cache and core on the cpu die for latency
22:54:55 <ais523> and it's definitely useful to be able to mask, say, the code section and data section of an executable map differently
22:55:24 <b_jonas> ais523: not really. if you actually use smaller pages, rather than just allow smaller pages, then you pay the page table cost
22:56:03 <ais523> make it so that the high bits of a pointer specify what sort of accesses can be used via it; then instead of having permissions specified separately in the page table, they're specified indirectly by what virtual address you mapped the physical page to
22:56:09 <b_jonas> ais523: but currently, the cpu allows 4k pages, but most pages are actually larger, megabyte sized (we don't have 8K or 16K pages on x86_64 I think, but we could in the future), which is better because they take up less space in the page table cache
22:56:19 <b_jonas> well, not yet, but OSes are getting better with large pages
22:56:30 <b_jonas> eventually we will be using mostly megabyte-sized pages on x86_64
22:56:46 <b_jonas> and then you don't pay for the cost of the small pages in the page table cache, but only in the L1
22:57:32 <b_jonas> and once you require larger pages, with no mask bits, you have a page table cache that is about as efficient as currently, only slightly more because it doesn't handle small pages at all, and an L1 cache that can finally break the 32 kilobyte barrier
22:58:08 <b_jonas> it's still tricky, you can't just increase the L1 cache to as large as you want, because that also increases the latency of that cache
22:59:24 <b_jonas> you might even end up with an L1 cache and an L1.5 cache, the L1.5 cache being slower than the L1 cache, but still works like the current L1 cache in that it can tell which group of 8 elements to use before the page table cache tells the address
23:00:14 <b_jonas> you might even drop the L2 cache, and have only an L1 cache, and L1.5 cache, and what's currently called an L3 cache
23:00:37 <b_jonas> at this point I just don't have the hardware competence
23:02:40 <ais523> I think the future of hardware is mostly moving towards trying to make the memory structure less general so that it can be faster in special cases
23:03:04 <ais523> for example, GPUs typically use batch memory transfer mechanisms and suspend threads while waiting for the memory values to arrive
23:03:21 <ais523> and NUMA allows different CPU cores to have different RAM
23:04:16 <b_jonas> I'm a software guy who wants to optimize stuff on existing or near future consumer PC cpus, and only trying to understand cpus and compilers from that direction
23:05:32 <b_jonas> ais523: sure, the point of NUMA is that if each half of the cpu is accessing the RAM that's close to him, then the two halves can do memory transfer faster, and possibly with slihghtly lower latency too
23:06:50 <b_jonas> this is useful if you have processes that are really well parallelizable to twofolds, as in, two parts are very independent in what memory they use, which is common, then you get higher memory performance with cheaper hardware
23:07:08 <b_jonas> and it's common to have tasks that partition to two easily
23:07:53 <b_jonas> I've used a 2-way numa server to compress several videos in parallel, the bulk of each video compression runs on one core
23:08:08 <b_jonas> one cpu core that is, with some gpu magic involved too
23:09:00 <b_jonas> and the raw video is read to the half of the main RAM that compresses that video, and then the intermediate storage used for the compression is in that half too
23:09:31 <b_jonas> I sort of have to trust the OS to do the Sane Thing in the common case
23:11:33 <b_jonas> compressing half of several videos still takes too much memory that it probably overflows an L3 cache
23:12:03 <ais523> CPU → GPU memory transfers are really really slow (the other direction is IIRC even slower, but less useful)
23:14:10 <b_jonas> ais523: sure, but for video compression it's still worth, because a part of the video compression can be really sped up by a GPU
23:14:26 <b_jonas> assuming you have a modern GPU of course
23:14:57 <b_jonas> it's the kind of tasks GPUs are optimized for
23:19:11 <b_jonas> and I think if you do both the finding the nearby similar square in previous frames thing on the GPU and the discrete cosine/wavelet/etc transform on the GPU too, then you can keep all the data in the deeper parts of the GPU between those two
23:20:21 <b_jonas> so ideally you only transfer each frame to GPU only once and do all the tasks there, then transfer the result back to CPU which does further processing on it and writes the file
23:21:05 <b_jonas> there's some other operations besides those two, like possibly partly decoding the frames from the input format if it's already compressed, subtraction, color space transform, etc
23:21:48 <b_jonas> or even resizing to lower resolution or other operations done at the same time as the encoding
23:22:07 <b_jonas> or, heck, deinterlacing and resizing to lower resolution
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06:49:15 <verisimilitude> I figured I'd add a language I created to the Esolang wiki, even though it's just a derivative of Brainfuck; do I need an account in order to add a page?
06:52:10 <verisimilitude> Alright; before I add it, perhaps I should explain what the language is, since I figure you'll be able to tell me if it's been done before.
06:54:47 <shachaf> I don't think "homoiconic" means anything
06:55:14 <verisimilitude> I added a new command, =, that conditionally copies the program into the data array or copies the data array into the program and then starts executing it.
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07:28:07 * Sgeo_ is now wondering about mechanical ways to translate that into pure Brainfuck
07:30:19 <verisimilitude> I have a page with an (incomplete) interpreter written in APL here:
07:30:44 <verisimilitude> It's incomplete because I didn't know how I wanted to handle unbalanced brackets; now I know but I haven't corrected this yet.
07:31:03 <verisimilitude> Asides from that one detail, the APL interpreter is complete.
07:33:43 <verisimilitude> Also, note that this page is the oldest on my website and in most need of editing; it's outdated and needs improvement; I'll improve this page before I put anything on the Esolang wiki.
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09:52:30 <esowiki> [[Doreq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58592&oldid=58591 * Oerjan * (-35) Revert - doesn't look reversible to me, X can be clobbered.
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09:59:57 <lambdabot> ENVA 050950Z 18009KT 110V200 9999 FEW038 BKN059 01/M04 Q1008 TEMPO 4000 -SHRASN VV014 RMK WIND 670FT 20015KT
10:00:08 <oerjan> snow has come late this year
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10:26:31 <wob_jonas> verisimilitude: just copying the code to the data is easy, you don't even need quining techniques. for copying data to code, you need a full brainfuck interpreter.
10:26:57 <wob_jonas> I mean, if you want to translate such a program to brainfuck
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12:21:02 <HackEso> #!/bin/sh \ allquotes | if [ "$1" ]; then \ if expr "$1" + 0 >/dev/null 2>&1; then \ sed "$1q;d" \ else \ grep -P -i -- "$1" \ fi \ else shuf --random-source=/dev/urandom -n 1; fi
12:21:10 <HackEso> cat "${2:-/dev/stdin}" >tmp/spout.raw; distort tmp/spout.raw | spore "${1-1}"
12:21:20 <HackEso> 91) <alise> like, just like I'd mark "Bob knob hobs deathly poop violation EXCREMENT unto;" as English <ais523> alise: that's great filler <alise> ais523: well it contains all the important words in the english language...
12:22:20 <HackEso> 1/1:1237) <Taneb> Could we achieve SETI with only naive set theory?
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12:23:34 <Taneb> Ooh that's a me quote
12:24:09 <HackEso> 384) <Taneb> Turned out he got recursion, he just didn't get the return statement \ 390) <Taneb> Cut to February <Taneb> War were declared <Taneb> A galaxy in turmoil <Taneb> Anyway, Febuary '10 \ 391) <Taneb> I can't afford one of those! <Taneb> A grandchild, not a laser printer \ 397) <fizzie> There's that saying that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. [...] <Taneb> You've just gave
12:24:31 <Taneb> I now have a laser printer
12:26:01 <Taneb> So I just need to learn how to use a sword and I will have achieved all my ambitions
12:29:54 <wob_jonas> Taneb: yes, you're among the most quotable people. I made a statistics, it's somewhere in the logs.
12:30:12 <Taneb> wob_jonas: I don't think I've been quoted that much in the past few years
12:30:41 <Taneb> Possibly because I've got a life, or at least hang out in a wider range of IRC channels
12:31:02 <wob_jonas> https://esolangs.org/logs/2018-09-07.html#lsb
12:31:32 <wob_jonas> you're more than half as quotable as the most quoted person
12:31:49 <wob_jonas> 52 Taneb quotes, the highest is 103 zzo38 quotes
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12:59:05 <HackEso> 369) <oklopol> [...] only the hamster's nervous system was tortured. although probably torturing a large logical gate constitutes a horrible thing to do if it comes in a cute container. \ 632) <Phantom_Hoover> Dinner? At two? <fizzie> It's four here already. See, UTC+2. You need to add a couple of hours. Or was that subtract? I can never get those straight.
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13:34:12 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * AIden * New user account
13:48:42 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58593&oldid=58555 * AIden * (+206)
14:03:08 <esowiki> [[Fish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58594&oldid=57412 * AIden * (+185)
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15:05:58 <esowiki> [[Autopsy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58595 * Keymaker * (+4141) Autopsy, a tarpit with 2 instructions and 4 registers/counters.
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15:14:09 <esowiki> [[User:Keymaker]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58596&oldid=53847 * Keymaker * (+115) Added Autopsy.
15:19:24 <esowiki> [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58597&oldid=56828 * Keymaker * (+41) /* Survey */
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17:53:37 <lambdabot> LOWI 051720Z VRB01KT 9999 FEW009 BKN090 04/03 Q1024 NOSIG
17:54:01 <int-e> fungot: did you hide the swatter?
17:54:01 <fungot> int-e: btw people, i see, so is a ( pseudo) register based one
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18:13:50 <esowiki> [[Beam]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58598&oldid=44642 * Gamer * (-8) /* Truth-machine */
18:14:59 <esowiki> [[Beam]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58599&oldid=58598 * Gamer * (+20) /* Truth-machine */
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18:15:09 <esowiki> [[Beam]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58600&oldid=58599 * Gamer * (+1) /* Truth-machine */
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18:49:25 <Ana-> how are you? :)
18:51:09 <Phantom_Hoover> the real question is how is esoteric programming language discussion, design, development and deployment
18:53:17 <Ana-> Excuse me, I entered the channel without knowing what it was. I just wanted to talk to people
18:54:38 <Phantom_Hoover> this channel is mostly full of computer programmers, not people
18:55:21 <Ana-> hello verosimilitude ;)
18:55:22 <verisimilitude> So, you don't want to discuss programming at all, Ana-?
18:55:55 <Ana-> hehehe just friends wanted...Where are you from?
18:56:47 <verisimilitude> Well, if you trace my IP I'm from Georgia, but that's not where I really am.
18:57:22 <Ana-> and where are you from?.Someone from Argentina? 😉
18:57:27 <verisimilitude> Anyway, feel free to PM me if you want to continue discussing things, I suppose, Ana-; there's no point in cluttering this channel.
18:57:45 <Ana-> ah!!!!! thanks!!!! ;)
18:58:16 <Ana-> and thanks Phantom_Hoover for answering!! :)
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19:30:14 <oerjan> `addquote <Ana-> Excuse me, I entered the channel without knowing what it was. I just wanted to talk to people <Ana-> 😥 <Phantom_Hoover> idk if you're likely to have much luck there <Phantom_Hoover> this channel is mostly full of computer programmers, not people
19:30:16 <HackEso> 1329) <Ana-> Excuse me, I entered the channel without knowing what it was. I just wanted to talk to people <Ana-> 😥 <Phantom_Hoover> idk if you're likely to have much luck there <Phantom_Hoover> this channel is mostly full of computer programmers, not people
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20:32:14 <fungot> olsner: i should write an imperative-functional compiler probably doesn't have high priority. it's rather... large. so we create a wrapper structure.
20:32:14 <HackEso> 10) <fungot> GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know. \ 13) <fizzie after embedding some of his department research into fungot> Finally I have found some actually useful purpose for it. \ 14) <fungot> oerjan: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. please let me go... put me out! he's really a tricycle! pass him! \ 56) <fungot> i am sad ( of course by analogy)
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21:11:38 <b_jonas> `pbflist http://pbfcomics.com/comics/by-myself/
21:11:39 <HackEso> pbflist http://pbfcomics.com/comics/by-myself/: shachaf Sgeo quintopia ion b_jonas Cale
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01:41:32 <esowiki> [[User:Cortex]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58601&oldid=58523 * Cortex * (-68)
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10:42:23 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58602&oldid=58429 * Gamer * (-8) /* MarioLANG */
10:44:03 <esowiki> [[Math++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58603&oldid=57716 * Gamer * (-1) /* Syntax */
10:45:01 <esowiki> [[Math++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58604&oldid=58603 * Gamer * (+1) /* Binary Operators */
10:47:14 <esowiki> [[Math++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58605&oldid=58604 * Gamer * (+1) /* Cotangent */
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10:56:03 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58606&oldid=58602 * Gamer * (-60) /* Alight */
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12:40:44 <esowiki> [[TPLHBPTBOTEW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58607&oldid=58203 * Gamer * (+36) /* See also */
12:41:54 <esowiki> [[TPLHBPTBOTEW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58608&oldid=58607 * Gamer * (-43) /* Truth-machine */
12:42:41 <esowiki> [[TPLHBPTBOTEW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58609&oldid=58608 * Gamer * (+38) /* Truth-machine */
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14:46:35 <ais523_> Autopsy feels like there should be some way to make it TC with three counters
14:47:02 <ais523_> (you can do it with just two if the distance jumped forwards after each instruction were changed to be much larger, but I suspect that would miss the point of the language)
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15:16:46 <wob_jonas> some people really don't know how to make informative documentation. they just spew this shit with some automatic doc generation tool. "InStr([start, ]string1, string2[, compare])" bad parameter naming. let's see the description of those parameters:
15:17:09 <wob_jonas> "string1: Required. String expression being searched. / string2: Required. String expression sought."
15:17:37 <wob_jonas> The function "Returns a Variant (Long) specifying the position of the first occurrence of one string within another."
15:19:12 <wob_jonas> It does eventuall leak which argument is which a page later, but at that point it's easier to give up and just take a glance at http://www.antonis.de/qbebooks/gwbasman/ and hope that no BASIC implementation gets the arguments swapped.
15:20:23 <wob_jonas> GWBASIC manual: "To search for the first occurrence of string y$ in x$, and return the position at which the string is found. / INSTR([n,]x$,y$)" see, that's one way to be clear. "INSTR([startpos,]haystack$,needle$)" would be even better, but that may be a later invention.
15:28:34 <fizzie> wob_jonas: https://gamma.zem.fi/~fis/qbc.html#QEw4MGEz
15:29:01 <fizzie> Is how they wrote it for QBasic.
15:29:23 <fizzie> I think that's a disprovement. Or whatever the opposite of improvement was, mind is blank & time for a meeting. ->
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18:39:51 <HackEso> [U+2019 RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK]
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21:48:19 <oren> WHO PUT NUMBERS IN MY GOEGARPHY DATA!
21:49:10 <oren> oh, nver mind, it was me
21:49:30 <shachaf> did you fix your build system and/or quit your job yet twh
21:50:12 <oren> shachaf: no, I am currently working on replacing some of it though. replacing a bunch of programs in Go, with C++
21:50:50 <oren> Only problem is I am bad at understanding what Go code does
21:51:31 <oren> and I have three other things which are higher priority than fxing the build system, one of which is adding features to the build system
21:51:56 <shachaf> what about quitting your job, though
21:52:22 <oren> shachaf: They keep raising my salary
21:52:32 <oren> shachaf: so, not yet
21:53:33 <shachaf> but if you switched jobs it'd probably go up even more
21:54:25 <HackEso> Your omnidryad saddle principal ideal golfing toe-obsessed "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty evil grinch is a punctual expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it.
21:55:03 <shachaf> `swrjan s/render/remember/; s/connivance/convenience/
21:55:05 <HackEso> oerjan//Your omnidryad saddle principal ideal golfing toe-obsessed "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty evil grinch is a punctual expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it.
21:56:26 <oren> shachaf: yeah but then I would have to learn a new build system
21:57:11 <shachaf> oren: just ask for a bunch more money to compensate hth
21:57:51 <b_jonas> oren: do you really have to? doesn't the build system only come with the culture, and you could still just invoke the compiler with any other build system?
22:00:58 <oren> b_jonas: I suppose. I guess my company has alot more trouble because most of what the "build system" does is crunching data and autogenerating code, not actually finding dependencies or running G++
22:01:36 <oren> in fact the part of the build system I'm working on doesn't run any compilers
22:02:05 <oren> it turns CSV source data into CSV result data
22:02:09 <b_jonas> oren: in that case, combine the two build systems. do they hate each others?
22:02:45 <b_jonas> let one call into the other and back
22:03:06 <b_jonas> with some of the steps running on a remote machine too
22:03:29 <oren> b_jonas: that already happens. the current build system does make -> shell script -> make -> perl -> make -> perl
22:04:06 <b_jonas> oren: good. is the tangly part sorely lacking documentation or anyone else other than you who understands it, for job security?
22:04:33 <int-e> oren: needs more python, rust, go, swift, and fortran
22:04:38 <oren> b_jonas: I wrote documentation but afaict noone has read any of it
22:04:47 <b_jonas> documentation doesn't really matter
22:04:59 <b_jonas> it can be a good way to protect your back
22:05:20 <oren> int-e: the shell script uses tools written in C++, Go, Haskell, and Ruby
22:05:41 <int-e> oren: oh I forgot about Ruby.
22:05:56 * int-e is living a cozy life.
22:05:59 <oren> I am working on exorcizing the languages I dont know from the system
22:06:13 <oren> or know but don't like
22:06:28 <b_jonas> make sure the stuff breaks the moment you leave, but the simply solution shall be plainly documented in the documentation, and you shall have several ignored emails you send in which you point to that documentation and explain how important it is that its steps are followed, and you ask your supervisor to forward that information to the next person managing the build system
22:06:41 <b_jonas> and put the documentation right next to the build system too so they can't claim to have lost it
22:06:46 <b_jonas> they still won't be able to find anything
22:07:51 <b_jonas> I'll have to find time to write such documentation too
22:08:10 <b_jonas> I already have a system that nobody else can use
22:08:17 <HackEso> 2018-12-06 22:08:17.098855625+00:00
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22:09:12 <int-e> . o O ( `learn time//There's never enough time to write a good wisdom entry so this is what you get instead. )
22:10:43 <shachaf> is the part where you learn learn instead of le//rn part of what makes it not a good wisdom
22:11:48 <HackEso> `learn creates a wisdom entry and tries to guess which word is the key. Syntax (case insensitive): `learn [a|an|the] <keyword>[s][punctuation] [...]
22:11:57 <HackEso> le/rn makes creating wisdom entries manually a thing of the past. Usage: `le/[/]rn <key>//<wisdom>
22:12:09 <shachaf> That joke is no longer applicable. :-(
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22:13:45 <shachaf> oren: so if the salary raises are what's keeping you there, is there an amount of money that would convince you to switch jobs + build systems
22:13:59 <shachaf> i bet you could get it if you were motivated hth
22:14:19 <b_jonas> ``` date -u "+%Y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S %z %Z %B %-e %A %G-W%V-%u"
22:14:20 <HackEso> 2018-12-06 22:14:19 +0000 UTC December 6 Thursday 2018-W49-4
22:14:32 <HackEso> #!/bin/sh \ exec date --rfc-3=n -u "$@"
22:14:50 <HackEso> 2018-12-06 22:14:50.194302513+00:00
22:15:02 <b_jonas> how do I get GNU date to print fractions of seconds with an explicit format?
22:15:29 <b_jonas> ``` date -u "+%Y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S.%N %z %Z %B %-e %A %G-W%V-%u"
22:15:29 <HackEso> 2018-12-06 22:15:29.719776794 +0000 UTC December 6 Thursday 2018-W49-4
22:16:13 <b_jonas> ``` f=bin/dateu; >$f echo $'#!/bin/sh\n''exec date -u "+%Y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S.%N %z %Z %B %-e %A %G-W%V-%u"'; chmod -c a+x "$f"
22:16:17 <HackEso> 2018-12-06 22:16:17.262646602 +0000 UTC December 6 Thursday 2018-W49-4
22:16:27 <b_jonas> ``` f=bin/datei; >$f echo $'#!/bin/sh\n''exec date "+%Y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S.%N %z %Z %B %-e %A %G-W%V-%u"'; chmod -c a+x "$f"
22:16:30 <HackEso> 2018-12-06 22:16:30.538588903 +0000 UTC December 6 Thursday 2018-W49-4
22:16:38 <oren> that reminds me, a few weeks ago I was thingking what if you had a CPU that only used floats
22:16:52 <oren> how would one use foating point numbers as adressles
22:16:54 <b_jonas> oren: yeah, those things used to exist back when integrated circuits were cheap
22:16:57 <HackEso> usage: mk[x] file//contents
22:17:15 <shachaf> oren: You could address bits! It'd be great.
22:17:26 <b_jonas> oren: also, there are high level languages with only floats (well, sort of), such as on my SHARP EL-5120 programmable calculator
22:17:34 <b_jonas> the floating point arithmetic is a bit strange too
22:17:59 <b_jonas> there is a sign are twelve decimal digits of mantissa, and two digits with sign of exponent of 10,
22:18:13 <b_jonas> only 10 digits are displayed
22:18:31 <b_jonas> so you'd think it's easy to store 12 decimal digits in a number, but it's not,
22:18:40 <b_jonas> because there's a strange quirk in the arithmetic operations:
22:19:10 <b_jonas> if you subtract two numbers and their exponent differs by 10 or 11, then the small number is treated as zero
22:19:18 <b_jonas> it won't subtract it from the last two digits
22:19:35 <b_jonas> so you don't have reliable 12 decimal digit integer arithmetic
22:19:45 <b_jonas> you could work this around, but it's not easy with such limited programming
22:19:55 <int-e> shachaf: did you know that https://www.felixcloutier.com/x86/BT.html actually allows you to address bits in memory (i.e., it'?
22:19:58 <b_jonas> so I mostly just stored 8 or 10 decimal digits in a variable
22:20:08 <b_jonas> when I didn't use it as a float that is
22:20:17 <int-e> (i.e. it's meaningful to use offsets < 0 or > 64 with a 64 bit memory operand)
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22:20:47 <b_jonas> it also has what appears to be an 8-bit processor, so arithmetic is slow, and transcendental operations are very slow, but ordinary control flow and copying around values is fast,
22:21:17 <b_jonas> which is what makes the substitute for the missing arrays viable, which is a loop that cycles around 8 or 10 variables by 1, and keeps track of how much it's rotated
22:21:32 <b_jonas> that is fast and uses very little program memory or labels
22:22:22 <b_jonas> there's only about 1100 bytes of program memory (every function or statement heading takes just a single byte, and every line has an overhead of only 3 bytes), and a program is limited to 20 labels
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23:14:39 <ais523> it strikes me that the "symbols" listing in https://esolangs.org/wiki/Turing_tarpit is completely missing the mathematical point
23:15:02 <ais523> it should be describing the number of distinguishable values per memory cell (thus, the counter-based languages effectively have infinitely many symbols)
23:15:12 <ais523> but I'm not sure that that's a useful statistic for esolangs
23:15:24 <ais523> because they don't normally allow you to give arbitrary actions to arbitrary symbols
23:15:29 <ais523> (when they do, you typically have a tag system)
23:18:16 <ais523> oren: there are plenty of higher-level languages which have floats as their only numeric type
23:18:39 <ais523> normally, when you need integers, you use 32-bit integers and store them in doubles
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23:40:22 <b_jonas> "arbitrary actions to arbitrary systems" => hmm. finitely many symbols, or infinitely many? the latter is harder.
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23:44:11 <b_jonas> Today I folded up my double bed to single bed configuration. Out came a shitton of dust that doesn't get out in normal cleaning, and two M:tG cards. There are probably some more under it somewhere.
23:44:27 <b_jonas> This isn't the first time I found M:tG cards under it. I've found other lost stuff too a few times.
23:45:01 <HackEso> Taneb is not elliott, no matter whom you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards with dodgy SHIFT KEys, cube root of nine genders, one of which is a Czech woman, and above average, not too voluminous, but calm eyebrows. He sometimes invents without noticing it (see: tanebventions).
23:45:08 <shachaf> I offered Taneb some Magic: The Gathering cards but he didn't take them.
23:47:39 <ais523> b_jonas: I think there are plenty of languages which (at least syntactically) allow you to assign actions to an arbitrary subset of an infinity of symbols
23:47:52 <ais523> in terms of esolangs https://esolangs.org/wiki/Echo_Tag effectively does
23:48:03 <ais523> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Fusion_Tag
23:48:07 <ais523> I have too many tag system variants
23:48:57 <ais523> or, well, I'm not sure it's /possible/ to have too many tag system variants
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23:58:34 <b_jonas> Cloudgoat Ranger (Lorwyn, english; I have 5 total of it, 3 english and 2 simplified chinese; I like it, only two really goes in a deck but multiple white decks can fit them) and Daunting Defender (Onslaught, english; I have 4 but never use them)
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00:00:05 <b_jonas> Does anyone want to bet how many more cards I'll recover?
00:00:16 <b_jonas> I think I still have some missing.
00:10:41 <b_jonas> No cards. And I think I opened and lifted it up enough that I would have found any cards.
00:10:51 <b_jonas> There's some more dust left down there, that I admit
00:12:46 <b_jonas> Well, I can't complain either way.
00:12:53 <b_jonas> It's not like I expected to find treasure under it.
00:14:29 <b_jonas> This could be an un-card. A sorcery for {1W} with "If you're not in your own home, you may look under the bed. You may put any number of Magic cards found there into your hand."
00:15:09 <b_jonas> No wait, that doesn't work. It would break the rule that you can't put cards you don't own to your hand.
00:16:01 <b_jonas> Make it a sorcery for {1W} with "If you're not in your own home, you may look under the bed. You may cast up to two cards found there without paying their mana costs."
00:19:09 <b_jonas> Or should it be white and be called "Spring bed cleaning"?
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00:19:28 <b_jonas> I think it fits better in white
00:20:12 <b_jonas> I guess it could be given some green flavor by mentioning recycling and scavenging animals.
00:21:46 <b_jonas> Like, it's about some worms that come after the jackals eat all they could from the caracass the lions left over.
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00:42:11 <b_jonas> Or it can be red. The flavor is that a goblin goes into a dungeon and wakes up sleeping creatures. The art shows him just having come out of the dungeon, running away, behind it a bear, and behind it a huge dragon with its neck poking out from a standard 5 foot dungeon entrace.
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00:42:27 <b_jonas> But I think the green version fits the effect better.
00:43:40 <b_jonas> Called something like "Urban Scavanging" and cost {1G}.
00:45:06 <b_jonas> The red version would have to put up to two creatures into play with haste.
00:50:10 <b_jonas> And the red version would cost {2R}, the green version {1G}. I think I prefer the green one.
00:50:20 <b_jonas> If the red one is done, it has to have some other effect.
00:50:28 <b_jonas> Not connected with under the bed.
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07:20:18 <shachaf> Oh man, http://jtra.cz/stuff/essays/math-self-reference/index.html
07:20:23 <shachaf> This is much better than the other one.
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12:18:25 <esowiki> [[TPLHBPTBOTEW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58610&oldid=58609 * Salpynx * (+26) pseudonatural category
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12:49:09 <esowiki> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58611&oldid=58266 * Salpynx * (+262) /* Examples */ Truth-machine
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17:39:46 <moony2> Making JIT actually performant is annoying
17:40:32 <moony2> and x86-64 *really* doesn't map very well to a 64 (2 zero registers) architecture (FP and GPR combined)
17:41:37 <moony2> I'm also curious how much work would need to be done to get Linux running on the MC88100
17:42:19 <moony2> probably a fair bit, but not too much, as it shares similar features to RISC-V/MIPS in several places.
17:44:54 <moony2> also, my laptop *really* sucks. I may want to delay development of the emulator until i get my new desktop due to the fact my laptop probably couldn't pull 100MIPS even if i tried
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18:15:55 <HackEso> Lies are even easier than monoids. They form groups, known as Lie groups.
18:17:27 <int-e> . o O ( politics is where visions go to die )
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19:53:35 <b_jonas> zzo38: in M:tG, I mentioned that Gatherer doesn't mention which cards transform to which in the list view, only in the individual card view.
19:53:49 <b_jonas> zzo38: but it gets worse. the list view also doesn't tell the color indicators.
19:57:56 <b_jonas> zzo38: hmm, I could download the lists in "Checklist" view. that at least shows the color.
19:58:50 <b_jonas> zzo38: hmm, even stranger than that
19:59:08 <b_jonas> zzo38: it lists the color of the card and the color of the back face concatenated together
20:00:18 <b_jonas> I don't understand why, but it lists Evermind as "Blue/Blue"
20:01:03 <b_jonas> I think it shows the color and the color indicator together
20:02:49 <esowiki> [[Madbrain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58612&oldid=58170 * Gamer * (-40) /* Hello World! */
20:02:55 <esowiki> [[Madbrain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58613&oldid=58612 * Gamer * (+30) /* Hello, World! */
20:09:19 <b_jonas> But I think I'll download the checklists as well as the standard view lists
20:09:38 <b_jonas> (seriously, they call it "Standard")
20:10:12 <esowiki> [[Madbrain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58614&oldid=58613 * Gamer * (+4095) /* Implementation (Python) */
20:10:32 <b_jonas> (they should rename the "Checklist" view to "Counter" view.)
20:11:04 <esowiki> [[Madbrain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58615&oldid=58614 * Gamer * (-50) /* Implementation (Python) */
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20:20:44 <esowiki> [[Madbrain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58616&oldid=58615 * Gamer * (-744) /* Implementation (Python) */
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20:28:52 <esowiki> [[User:Gamer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58617&oldid=57797 * Gamer * (+5924)
20:29:35 <esowiki> [[User:Gamer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58618&oldid=58617 * Gamer * (-2)
20:29:53 <esowiki> [[User:Gamer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58619&oldid=58618 * Gamer * (+0)
20:37:03 <esowiki> [[HQ9funge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58620&oldid=58188 * Gamer * (-248) /* Commands */
20:37:14 <esowiki> [[HQ9funge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58621&oldid=58620 * Gamer * (+0) /* Commands */
20:38:06 <esowiki> [[HQ9funge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58622&oldid=58621 * Gamer * (+4) /* Computational class */
20:40:33 <esowiki> [[HQ9funge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58623&oldid=58622 * Gamer * (-56) /* See Also */
20:48:13 <esowiki> [[Befunge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58624&oldid=58553 * Gamer * (+0) /* Hello, world! */
21:00:38 <esowiki> [[Surround notation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58625&oldid=58562 * Ais523 * (-16) Undo revision 58562 by [[Special:Contributions/Cortex|Cortex]] ([[User talk:Cortex|talk]]): we probably don't need a warning for that?
21:01:02 <esowiki> [[Omgrofl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58626&oldid=58560 * Ais523 * (-16) undo: we probably don't need a warning for that?
21:01:37 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Template:Dead memes]]": primarily used to attack other people's articles
21:43:34 <oerjan> . o O ( i see dead memes )
21:48:32 <int-e> oerjan: all your base are belong to us
21:48:42 * int-e is feeling helpful
21:50:45 <b_jonas> ``` for k in 0 1; do wisdom; done
21:50:45 <HackEso> functor//Functors are morphisms in the category of small categories. \ portmanteau//«Portmanteau» is the French spelling of “port man toe”.
21:50:48 <b_jonas> ``` for k in 0 1; do quote; done
21:50:48 <HackEso> 1091) <zzo38> If someone tries really hard to convince you to sell them drugs, then you should photograph them and bind them. <kmc> bind them to what <zzo38> To jail. \ 526) <elliott> Dear god stop staring at me. <monqy> no never <Phantom_Hoover> monqy is always staring at everyone. <monqy> it takes many eyes to do this but I manage <Phantom_Hoover> He is an inspiration to us all.
21:55:56 <int-e> `learn mꙮnqy is watching you.
21:55:58 <HackEso> Learned 'mꙮnqy': mꙮnqy is watching you.
21:59:55 <HackEso> [U+A66E CYRILLIC LETTER MULTIOCULAR O]
22:00:55 <oerjan> ...that was obvious really.
22:04:17 <int-e> I thought so, iot's basically the channel mascot.
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22:06:05 <HackEso> fungot:fungot is our beloved channel mascot and voice of reason.
22:06:18 <int-e> Ah, fungot. Fair enough.
22:06:18 <fungot> int-e: sounds like you need to bind a whole bunch of webcams here.
22:07:01 <int-e> fungot: uhm, are you trying to film yourself Matrix effect style?
22:07:01 <fungot> int-e: and with 2 pheromones, you have
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22:13:25 <ais523> my subpixel antialiaser seems to really struggle with multiocular o
22:13:45 <ais523> different multiocular os can look different from each other
22:20:01 <int-e> beware those squinting eyes
22:22:21 <zzo38> b_jonas: I read it. You wrote something about Gatherer. I do not know how to deal with this
22:22:22 <oerjan> i think fungot wants multiocular capabilities
22:22:22 <fungot> oerjan: mov fnord add fnord mov ( fnord, list-string is an identifier?) but not the same as
22:22:34 <b_jonas> zzo38: I'm dealing with it
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22:56:44 <int-e> fungot: you may be on to something
22:56:45 <fungot> int-e: does oklotalk-- have runtime errors??? any posix system should have at least been polite about it since the course is very good ( yet) fully match what i want
22:57:33 <int-e> how did that end up in fungot's vocabulary then?
22:57:33 <fungot> int-e: what did alan kay say? " fnord,
22:57:49 <lambdabot> LOWI 072250Z AUTO VRB02KT 9999 -SHRA FEW038 BKN048 06/05 Q1008
23:02:07 <fungot> b_jonas: but i'm sure there are more than one char lookahead to parse intercal's array syntax in general
23:02:46 <ais523> it might be verbatim, or close to it
23:02:54 <ais523> INTERCAL's array syntax does indeed require more than one char lookahead
23:03:04 <ais523> (and very few other things in the language do)
23:03:08 <ais523> (possibly nothing else)
23:05:02 <b_jonas> fungot: how do you parse statements starting with FORI=1 in fortran?
23:05:03 <fungot> b_jonas: nick in that case, first try to see if a.b.c.d is in a.b.c.d/ n
23:05:20 <b_jonas> yeah, so just backtrack, try a for statement first, then a let statement
23:05:22 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
23:07:06 <b_jonas> fungot: and how do you parse R = AX OR B in BASIC?
23:07:06 <fungot> b_jonas: don't let large venomous spiders numb your limbs and suck out your fnord internal organs while you sleep.
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23:07:34 <b_jonas> fungot: don't worry, I'm not in Australia
23:07:34 <fungot> b_jonas: lol that's true too. i need some delay stuff working" is a separate specialization from math recommended it. if you
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23:31:27 <salpynx> Hello! thought I should finally join here and say hi. I'm spending far too much time on the wiki and working on esolangs in isolation, so thought it might be good to get into some discussions to direct what I work on next
23:31:57 <zzo38> OK. Do you have some idea though?
23:34:02 <salpynx> I am working on multiple ideas at the moment, but most actively on an Autopsy (recent and interesting turing-tarpit) interpreter in my own language ΙΧΘΥΣ / ixqus to hopefully prove it is Turing complete and figure out how I can implement arbitrary conditionals, which are quite challenging in ixqus
23:38:08 <salpynx> I have also started on a completely ridiculous brainfuck on blockchain idea that uses bitcoin wallets (practically on the testnet) as cell storage that would be good to get feedback on. I'm surprised there aren't already esolangs that try to use blockchain gimmicks. I though overused brainfuck and overused blockchain concepts would be a nice match for a technically challenging joke language.
23:40:08 <salpynx> I've made a little proof of concept bitcoin explorer bf app, and have already found even test coins get auto-swiped from low numbered / obvious wallets on the testnet, which makes it hard to test. I call them 'auto-decrement' bots. The idea of a distributed and publically shared memory space was part of the concept though
23:44:37 <salpynx> I guess the main point of feedback I'm after is, do I have some sort of moral responsibility to not use public blockchains to write many copies of 'Hello, World!' . I know I could implement this, but _should_ I :) Would it be sufficient to write up the concept on the wiki.. I'm calling the idea B*chainfuck (shortened to bcf)
23:49:03 <salpynx> I keep getting torn between sensible challenges (like Autospy), and complex jokes, which I guess is why I have rapidly become quite obsessed with esolangs.
23:49:27 <b_jonas> salpynx: I don't think you have such a moral responsibility. Bitcoin is a chaotic aligned network, the whole point is that it should have self-enforcing rules.
23:49:56 <b_jonas> If you technically can do something like that with bitcoin, then I don't think it's against the moral spirit of bitcoin to do it.
23:54:03 <b_jonas> I hate brainfuck though, exactly because it's overused and it sucks.
23:54:10 <salpynx> Also, if anyone tried to use the concept on the real bitcoin network they would loose real money, because many/most of the wallet keys are publicly known, but I hope that would be obvious to anyone who could set up the tool.
23:54:53 <salpynx> :) combining it with blockchain was a big part of the joke, twice the groan factor
23:55:17 <b_jonas> salpynx: make sure you use a GPU implementation though, for the overuse
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00:07:35 <ais523> also, I think many of us are interested in a mix of sensible challenges and complex jokes
00:07:52 <ais523> brainfuck-on-blockchain is an interesting idea, although it may have been comprehensively outesotericised by Ethereum
00:08:09 <b_jonas> yeah, sensible challenges with complex jokes are nice
00:08:14 <ais523> perhaps it would be possible to try it on an altcoin nobody cares about? there are a huge number of them, after all
00:08:36 <b_jonas> some of those vaporware projects that never get made are mixes of sensible challenges with complex jokes I guess
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00:11:15 <ais523> I guess my esolang research has skewed towards the sensible for a while
00:11:31 <ais523> but then, I'm a major contributor to things like C-INTERCAL, which is close to the pinnacle of the "complex joke" end of the scale
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00:17:29 <b_jonas> ais523: you could call the DOS nethack TAS a good mix of serious and a complex joke I guess
00:17:59 <b_jonas> whereas ayacc and aimake are on the serious side, more so than esolangs in general
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00:19:19 <b_jonas> hmm, I wanted to look up if there's a nethack4 bug ticket about how in certain polymorph (and maybe also as an orc character) you should eat apples whole on unix
00:20:45 <ais523> b_jonas: if it helps, I've seriously threatened to implement a brainfuck backend for ayacc
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00:21:27 <ais523> oh, netsplit is coming
00:21:27 <zzo38> ais523: Who do you threaten? Is it a threat?
00:21:50 <ais523> zzo38: it's a threat in that some people might see such an implementation as undesirable, but it's not a threat aimed at anyone in particular
00:22:44 <zzo38> O, OK. I think that if it is a separate file than the other backend then I do not have a problem with it
00:23:23 <ais523> well, all of ayacc is one file to make it easier to distribute, but it would have a separate section in the part of the file that defines backends
00:23:55 <zzo38> Yes, that can work too, I suppose. Use conditional compilation if someone complains
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00:25:25 <b_jonas> ais523: if you implement it, will you also put an open source license declaration in ayacc?
00:25:30 <b_jonas> because then it will be worth
00:25:52 <b_jonas> I don't care for the bf backend as long as it doesn't make the rest of ayacc harder to sue
00:26:25 <ais523> b_jonas: I will probably make ayacc GPLv3 at some point
00:26:28 <b_jonas> I would like some frontend transformations, as well as a stackless C/C++ backend.
00:26:48 <b_jonas> ais523: it is distributable under some such licence, but there's no declaration
00:26:58 <b_jonas> ais523: there's a declaration somewhere in the #esoteric logs
00:27:14 <b_jonas> but not in the source code itself (unless you snuck it in recently)
00:27:18 <ais523> the basic problem is that ayacc is so close to my day job it might be legally unwise for me to work on it at the moment
00:27:31 <ais523> although my day job's diverged a bit since
00:27:40 <b_jonas> which is why the bf backend is a good sigh
00:27:51 <b_jonas> if you can work on the bf backend, then you can probably also work on the license declaration
00:28:07 <zzo38> Yes, you should add properly the valid open-source/free-software license, whether GPLv3 or public domain or something else.
00:29:25 <b_jonas> I think there's no ticket for how any polyform, even a gelcube, will eat apples and pears without cores.
00:30:09 <ais523> b_jonas: I'm not working on the BF backend because of this
00:30:11 <ais523> it's probably the main reason?
00:30:27 <ais523> I'm thinking about it, though; semantic actions are hard
00:30:42 <ais523> perhaps we should restrict it to bignum BF and make the semantic actions into numbers
00:30:46 <ais523> err, semantic /values/ into numbers
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00:39:02 <salpynx> Thanks for the ideas. I thought about another altcoin, but then that'd be a lot of learning I'd have to do that would be less generally applicable, anything I learn about bitcoin protocols is more likely to be useful to me or others. Bitcoin has the advantage that there are a lot of exiting libraries to piggyback form or reverse engineer as well, so I don't have to implement everything and can focus on a few jokes.
00:40:03 <salpynx> The GPU idea is good, I don't remotely need to use it for the simple operations I'm aiming for, but it'd be fun to somehow use it for a trivial calculation, just to say it's being used
00:41:32 <b_jonas> salpynx: yes, nor do you need to use brainfuck or blockchains for the simple operations you're aiming for
00:41:58 <b_jonas> ^ proof of concept: hello world, without using bitcoin or blockchains or GPU
00:42:36 <b_jonas> it does run on HackEso through IRC though, so in that sense it is overcomplicated. I could just run hello world locally.
00:44:45 <ais523> b_jonas: currently I'm trying to write a The Waterfall Model interpreter that's has a sufficiently powerful optimiser that it can run a hello world in a reasonable length of t ime
00:45:20 <b_jonas> ais523: hmm, how does that generate output?
00:45:34 <ais523> there's an extension where you can take a useless counter and add specific values to it
00:46:08 <ais523> I wrote the extension recently because being able to produce output makes it easier to reason about what a program is doing (also makes the language more usable on PPCG)
00:46:10 <b_jonas> https://esolangs.org/wiki/The_Waterfall_Model#Output_extension
00:46:16 <ais523> but it's optional and not part of the "core" language
00:52:56 <zzo38> Do you know about mediaeval barber shop prices? Part of this http://zzo38computer.org/gurpsgame/1.ui/wiki?name=Session+17 has a price list does it looks like OK?
00:56:10 <b_jonas> no clue. I've never been to a mediaeval barber.
01:00:00 <ais523> a medieval barber would probably be more expensive nowadays than they would have been in medieval times
01:02:18 <zzo38> Yes, but I mean in medieval times rather than now
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02:31:54 <salpynx> zz038: Late medieval prices for a barber surgeon (full healing rather than the smaller things): https://books.google.com/books?id=3TuNOcTEXigC&pg=PA113 The battle healing on your list seems very good value!
02:38:20 <zzo38> Do you have the one without Google Books?
02:42:02 <salpynx> https://archive.org/details/dailylifeinchauc00forg it needs to be "borrowed" though
02:43:27 <zzo38> Do you just have a plain text version of the price list?
02:43:35 <zzo38> (Retype it if you have to)
02:43:38 <salpynx> Also https://www.jstor.org/stable/24620701 looks like a relevant paper which also uses John Ardene as an original source, from JSTOR, but I can't find a directly accessible full copy
02:44:10 <zzo38> I do not need a full copy of the book
02:48:33 <salpynx> Most of the professional practitioners were in London, In other large towns there might be a few physicians and surgeons, but medicine was primarily in the hands of the barber-surgeons and barber-tonsors. The countryside was served only by part-time healers, unless a patient was wealthy enough to import the services of a professional.
02:48:46 <salpynx> Treatment by a highly skilled practitioner could be very expensive: Arderne recommended a fee of 100 marks for a great person, £40 for lesser people, and £5 as a minimum. In principle, medical practitioners were supposed to treat the poor free of charge, but it is unlikely that they devoted much of their valuable time to such charity.
02:49:11 <salpynx> 2nd sentence is about all that is relevant for full healing
02:51:18 <zzo38> Five pounds is a lot more than I put. I suppose many poor people are unlikely to be able to read the price list anyways
02:58:32 <zzo38> I changed the price for "healing wounds from battle" now it is increased to five pounds. I do not remember exactly what prices the GM said, but I think it wasn't higher than that. Once the GM reads it, if he remember what he said, and also once he reads the footnote I added, then he might tell me to change it (he has the ability to change it by himself, but he doesn't use that, and I do instead).
03:03:49 <salpynx> 20s for an application of Mercury ointment for treating scabies from the JSOR paper (16 pages), not many other specifics though. A lot about treating paupers for free and from others accepting "presents of fowls and ducks"
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06:42:55 <zzo38> For HTTP ranges, in addition to "bytes", we can also have "lines", "items", and "unixtime" ranges. The syntax is same like byte ranges but the name is difference.
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09:43:25 <int-e> fungot`: be reasonable
09:43:26 <fungot`> int-e: figured that just now?! i've always used ghost for kicking my own fnord function. it accepts three arguments: a cell, fnord
10:00:28 <oerjan> fungot`: i think you left out an argument
10:00:28 <fungot`> oerjan: they sure have weird bodies burned and fnord sacrificed to some deities like dijkstra or so.
10:01:09 <int-e> oerjan: I thought it was just missing a comma after "a".
10:26:25 <oerjan> `addquote <b_jonas> I don't care for the bf backend as long as it doesn't make the rest of ayacc harder to sue
10:26:27 <HackEso> 1330) <b_jonas> I don't care for the bf backend as long as it doesn't make the rest of ayacc harder to sue
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11:26:34 <esowiki> [[Talk:TPLHBPTBOTEW]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58627 * Plokmijnuhby * (+681) Created page with "I'm trying to write a compiler, and I've noticed some problems. In commands like: The proof for the element of the name x and value 2 being in set P has been proven weak. the..."
11:29:23 <int-e> Raytracing should be a subfield of oceanic biology.
11:31:25 <int-e> "marine" is the right adjective.
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12:19:55 <b_jonas> Hmm, so artifact elven swords are supposed to glow _blue_ when orcs are nearby? I assumed they'd glow yellow or orange or something.
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12:32:30 <int-e> blue is the coolest glow :)
12:33:39 <int-e> fun. 'Both Obi-Wan and Anakin's were blue; Vader's was red. Those colors remained the standard until "Return of the Jedi," when Lucas had the color of Luke's new lightsaber blade changed to green so that it would stand out better against the blue sky of Tatooine.'
12:47:25 <b_jonas> salpynx: interesting. I wonder if that's real full healing, or just "full healing" up to 300 or 500 HP
13:08:00 <esowiki> [[User:Gamer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58628&oldid=58619 * Gamer * (+210)
13:08:13 <esowiki> [[User:Gamer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58629&oldid=58628 * Gamer * (+15)
13:08:55 <esowiki> [[User:Gamer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58630&oldid=58629 * Gamer * (+13) /* Madbrain (Python) */
13:12:50 <esowiki> [[User:Gamer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58631&oldid=58630 * Gamer * (-202)
13:13:21 <esowiki> [[User:Gamer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58632&oldid=58631 * Gamer * (+30)
13:13:53 <esowiki> [[TPLHBPTBOTEW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58633&oldid=58610 * Gamer * (+10) /* Flow Control Commands */
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14:40:19 <b_jonas> ``` head wisdom/ga*o | sport
14:40:20 <HackEso> 1/2:==> wisdom/gaspacho <== \ You like Gaspacho and I like Gazpacho. Let's call the whole thing off! \ \ ==> wisdom/gaspasjo <== \ Gaspasjo is a norwegian soup, which died out due to a lack of hot summer days \ \ ==> wisdom/gaspatsjo <== \ gaspatsjo is a norwegian soup, which died out due to a lack of hot summer days \ \ ==> wisdom/gaszpacho <== \ gaszpacho is a polish soup, traditionally szerved cold for hot szummer days \ \ ==> wisdom/gazpacho <== \
14:40:21 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
14:40:24 <HackEso> 2/2:You like Gazpacho and I like Gaspacho. Let's call the whole thing off! \ \ ==> wisdom/gazspaczo <== \ gazspaczo iz a hungarian szoup, tradizsonally szerved cold for hot szummer dayz
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14:54:32 <b_jonas> `bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20181208.html
14:54:33 <HackEso> bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20181208.html: b_jonas
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20:11:59 <zzo38> Have you ever play mahjong and have heaven? That is highly unlikely; I never have done.
20:14:26 <zzo38> I wrote rules of Pokemon mahjong: https://arin.ga/ASWzV9 Please read it see if you think it is good, and whatever suggestions/questions/complaints about it?
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21:02:50 <zzo38> Do you like this Pokemon mahjong I wrote now? Is there anything I missed, perhaps? Is there any mistake?
21:37:25 <esowiki> [[Unfedern]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58634&oldid=57352 * Zseri * (+1) correct file extension
21:48:38 <paul2520> that looks cool & fun, zzo38. also arin.ga is neat. I might try and host a clone
21:56:15 <b_jonas> zzo38: ouch. what's the easy way to turn off syntax coloring for that arin.ga page?
22:00:43 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, you can use the "raw" link. You can also use curl to download it; you get plain text in that case too.
22:01:52 <zzo38> paul2520: They have the source code on GitHub if you want to make a copy.
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00:49:19 <zzo38> Probably to understand the rules I wrote, is needing to know both Pokemon game and mahjong game.
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02:13:21 <b_jonas> `ehlist http://eheroes.smackjeeves.com/comics/2707534/whats-going-on/
02:13:22 <HackEso> ehlist http://eheroes.smackjeeves.com/comics/2707534/whats-going-on/: b_jonas
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04:27:10 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Marcsine * New user account
04:56:35 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58635&oldid=58593 * Marcsine * (+248) Hello, world!
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08:06:54 <esowiki> [[Talk:TPLHBPTBOTEW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58636&oldid=58627 * Salpynx * (+622) suggest new command
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09:55:00 <oren> could we cook things faster if the deep fryers were in a room filled with argon or is the somke point of oil independent of the ambient atmosphere?
09:55:28 <shachaf> Is the smoke point of oil the limiting factor for deep frying?
09:57:13 <oren> shachaf: my research indicates that they have to keep below the point where the oil starts breaking down
09:57:51 <oren> however wikipedia is unclear on whether this process is internal or a reaction between the oil and the air
10:00:29 <oren> further questions: would an oven filled with argon instead of air allow one to bake cookies faster without burning them
10:03:55 * oerjan points to cooking.stackexchange.com
10:04:06 <shachaf> i,i stacking.cookexchange.com
10:04:22 <oren> would an argon-filled kitchen allow the use of highly flammable liquids to cook in
10:04:34 <HackEso> oren is a Canadian esolanger who would like to obliterate time zones so that he can talk to his father who lives in the same house. He'll orobablu get the hang of toycj tuping soon. He also has a rabid hatred of the two-storey lowercase a and other shady characters.
10:06:49 <oerjan> if only boily were here i'm sure he'd know.
10:07:18 <HackEso> 483) <Phantom_Hoover> I keep asking random people for "friendship <thing>" and it's crippling
10:07:19 <HackEso> 1196) <fizzie> I am in room number 404. <fizzie> I keep not finding it and walking past the door.
10:07:20 <HackEso> 821) <Gregor> Apparently http://code.google.com/p/hgfs/ now exists. <Gregor> Oh, that's 2008. I'm sure I would've found it and rejected it for some reason before then X-D [...] <Gregor> Right, yeah. “Can't get the damned thing working.”
10:07:20 <HackEso> 176) <fizzie> The Perl script is probably slower than the Befunge code.
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10:11:06 <oerjan> `learn_append oren To escape the (build) system he's considering a career change to mad culinary science.
10:11:08 <HackEso> Learned 'oren': oren is a Canadian esolanger who would like to obliterate time zones so that he can talk to his father who lives in the same house. He'll orobablu get the hang of toycj tuping soon. He also has a rabid hatred of the two-storey lowercase a and other shady characters. To escape the (build) system he's considering a career change to mad culinary science.
10:11:41 <oerjan> it's the logical explanation that popped into my mind, so it must be true.
10:11:47 <HackEso> 1/2:redundancy//Since redundancy exists, it's redundant for Taneb to invent it. \ morphology//Morphology is the theory that you can never have enough phở. boily invented it. \ bofh//A BOFH is a bastard operator from hell. An example is the == operator in PHP. \ west midlands//Nobody knows anything about the West Midlands, and it has claimed the lives of at least two former regulars in this channel who tried to investigate so far. \ resolution//
10:11:54 <HackEso> 2/2:As of 2015, highest resolution commercial computer monitors are 5120x2880 Apple and 3840x2160 other.
10:13:25 <oerjan> `slwd s/He.*soon/He finally's got the hang of toycj tuping/
10:14:16 <oerjan> `slwd oren//s/He.*soon/He finally's got the hang of toycj tuping/
10:14:18 <HackEso> oren//oren is a Canadian esolanger who would like to obliterate time zones so that he can talk to his father who lives in the same house. He finally's got the hang of toycj tuping. He also has a rabid hatred of the two-storey lowercase a and other shady characters. To escape the (build) system he's considering a career change to mad culinary science.
10:14:41 <oerjan> `slwd oren//s/He.*soon/He's finally got the hang of toycj tuping/
10:14:42 <HackEso> oren//oren is a Canadian esolanger who would like to obliterate time zones so that he can talk to his father who lives in the same house. He's finally got the hang of toycj tuping. He also has a rabid hatred of the two-storey lowercase a and other shady characters. To escape the (build) system he's considering a career change to mad culinary science.
10:15:44 <HackEso> muphrys law//Mumphrie's Law says things will be misspelled at the worst possible moment.
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11:15:06 <esowiki> [[Talk:TPLHBPTBOTEW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58637&oldid=58636 * Plokmijnuhby * (+387) Rearrangement of my comment
11:16:40 <salpynx> question for the experts: Is there a meaningful difference in proving Turing completeness between (1) figuring out a transpiler (on paper or in a higher level language) between a known TC language and the target, and (2) creating an functional interpreter for the known TC language in the target? Is (1) sufficient for a TC proof?
11:17:37 <salpynx> I have figured out an algorithm for converting Waterfall Model code into ixqus (which definitely works for the smallish examples I have tried), but (2) is going to be substantially more work, and I'm worried something about the target (ixqus) will make it impossible to do properly, so a higher level language will always be required to do the transpiling. That would mean the target is not really TC, but only looks like it under some
11:17:56 <salpynx> Alternatively, if (1) _is_ sufficient, then (2) must be possible, but I won't have to actually do it :)
11:20:59 <int-e> (1) is sufficient.
11:22:46 <int-e> Intuitively (there are some technical obstacles but the basic ideas are sound), (1) gives you (2) (take a self-interpreter for the source language and translate it to the target language), and (2) gives you an easy approach to (1) (take the source program and combine it with the interpreter into a single program that runs it)
11:23:49 <shachaf> So apparently there's no better bound than PSPACE for the question "which of two sequences of naturals has the larger sum-of-square-roots?"
11:24:26 <salpynx> excellent, that is what I was hoping! It feels like it should have been obvious, but I was worried that there would be some technicality that somehow enabled one without the other.
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11:31:09 <salpynx> Even though Waterfall Model is pretty simple, getting any sort of _usable_ conditional happening in the target was quite challenging, though I think I have a good understanding now of the issues. I got stuck trying to implement an Autopsy interpreter, but hopefully have learned enough to continue. For some reason I think an Autopsy interpreter will be easier than a Waterfall Model one, even though the Wafterfall transpiler was more
11:32:10 <int-e> shachaf: hmm I've found http://cs.smith.edu/~jorourke/TOPP/P33.html and it's not at all obvious to me why it would be in PSPACE.
11:32:23 <salpynx> I guess interpreters are easier when the language syntax is closer, but Waterfall Model has nice clean logic regardless of target syntax, which enables transpiling
11:33:27 <int-e> (since that suggests that in the worst case you need to compute exponentially many bits of the results)
11:43:01 <b_jonas> oren: I don't see how that's relevant. doesn't a good deep fryer already let you heat the oil to a high enough temperature that higher would be worse on the food itself?
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11:47:06 <shachaf> http://ftp.cs.rutgers.edu/pub/allender/slp.pdf talks about it
11:54:02 <esowiki> [[Talk:TPLHBPTBOTEW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58638&oldid=58637 * Plokmijnuhby * (+622) /* Element removal */
11:55:25 <esowiki> [[Talk:TPLHBPTBOTEW]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58639&oldid=58638 * Plokmijnuhby * (+0) /* Element removal */
11:58:09 <salpynx> int-e: thanks for the answer. I'd always thought self-interpreters were an interesting curiosity, made for their own sake, but now I see the utility combined with translation. You can code the interpreter in whatever language seems easiest, then convert
12:29:48 <esowiki> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58640&oldid=58611 * Salpynx * (+159) Turing Complete via the Waterfall Model
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15:59:31 <b_jonas> See? They're copying themselves and each other again. http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/cryptography is essentially the same as https://www.xkcd.com/538/
16:09:24 <int-e> well, it is common wisdom... or at least ought to be
17:23:15 <HackEso> 1329) <Ana-> Excuse me, I entered the channel without knowing what it was. I just wanted to talk to people <Ana-> 😥 <Phantom_Hoover> idk if you're likely to have much luck there <Phantom_Hoover> this channel is mostly full of computer programmers, not people \ 1330) <b_jonas> I don't care for the bf backend as long as it doesn't make the rest of ayacc harder to sue
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17:24:52 <zzo38> Do you have any more ideas about new yaku or other rules for pokemon mahjong game?
17:31:14 <b_jonas> wow, there's an assembler syntax for C64 where the pseudo-instruction that inserts raw data is called "!BYTE" with an exclamation mark
17:31:22 <zzo38> O, I didn't know that
17:31:23 <b_jonas> who'd use an exclamation mark for that?
17:31:49 <zzo38> Whoever wrote that program, I suppose.
17:31:53 <b_jonas> I don't even understand why AT&T syntax uses dots. why do you need a prefix at all, when these are among the most common pseudo-instruction
17:32:48 <b_jonas> and I sort of wish they hadn't, because most of their assembler syntax for x86_32 and x86_64 is actually saner than the intel syntax
17:33:17 <b_jonas> seriously, intel's argument syntax is messed up
17:33:34 <ais523> I think they want to make it clear when reading the asm which instructions are direct processor instructions and which are instructions to the assembler
17:35:31 <b_jonas> incidentally, I'd like to point at http://yasm.tortall.net/ as what seems like a sane modern assembler and https://www.agner.org/optimize/ as a sane disassembler for the x86_64
17:35:44 <b_jonas> um, https://www.agner.org/optimize/#objconv for the latter
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17:57:52 <oerjan> b_jonas: istr at least one of munroe and weinersmith has explicitly stated e doesn't check whether the other guy (or possibly anyone) has made a joke before
17:58:07 <oerjan> (although the istr was hearsay)
17:59:26 * oerjan stopped reading smbc a while ago because it seemed to be just bringing up depressing ideas.
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18:52:54 <b_jonas> wow. I have three consecutive quotes at the quote file starting from 1326
18:53:41 <HackEso> 1326) <wob_jonas> and at least don't put Hofstadter next to the time cube guy without at least a semicolon, that's insulting Hofstadter
18:53:47 <HackEso> 1327) <wob_jonas> that real-world complexity doesn't fit my simple model of English <wob_jonas> must be that darned Higgs-boson or some other symmetry-breaking mechanism
18:53:51 <HackEso> 1328) <wob_jonas> ARGH! I just saw something on the web that is publicly available, but I shouldn't have looked at it, and now I can't unsee it. I was naive, I used to imagine that the world was a nicer place. <wob_jonas> It's the rules of an insurance company for computing the fees of motor vehicle insurance in Hungary. [...]
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19:08:34 <oerjan> `` doag quotes | grep symmetry
19:08:36 <HackEso> 11610:2018-08-22 <arseniïv> addquote <wob_jonas> that real-world complexity doesn\'t fit my simple model of English <wob_jonas> must be that darned Higgs-boson or some other symmetry-breaking mechanism
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21:28:29 <esowiki> [[Talk:TPLHBPTBOTEW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58641&oldid=58639 * Salpynx * (+2100) trying to figure out valid sets
21:43:06 <esowiki> [[Talk:TPLHBPTBOTEW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58642&oldid=58641 * Salpynx * (+643) Set == key:value swapped dict?
21:49:25 <esowiki> [[Talk:TPLHBPTBOTEW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58643&oldid=58642 * Salpynx * (+469) /* Turing completeness */
22:07:15 <esowiki> [[User:BradensEsolangs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58644&oldid=58019 * BradensEsolangs * (-46)
22:07:40 <esowiki> [[Mep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58645&oldid=54906 * BradensEsolangs * (+1) Prefer it here
22:12:17 <esowiki> [[Mep]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58646&oldid=58645 * BradensEsolangs * (+1)
22:16:52 <b_jonas> I think we gained a very useful contributor to esolangs with them
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22:55:32 <Sgeo_> ...darn I just wanted to say something to oerjan about Archie search being dead
22:55:41 <Sgeo_> ftp://ftp.nvg.ntnu.no/pub/frc/fantasy.rules.committee
23:02:09 <zzo38> Make the file available with gopher then; Veronica-2 still works, even if Archie doesn't
23:06:11 <zzo38> (There are also other problems with FTP; other protocols are often better, either HTTP, Plan9, Gopher, TFTP, or SSH, according to what is needed)
23:12:48 <b_jonas> plan9 protocol? is that the one with the white bunny? let me look that up
23:14:46 <b_jonas> yeah, though the bunny has small ears, unlike what I remembered
23:19:13 <b_jonas> nice as a logo, but I don't think it adapts well to a plushie, and that's something of a drawback when it comes to software mascots
23:20:55 <zzo38> Are you sure does it need to?
23:22:05 <zzo38> I suppose it might help to earn money if you can sell plushies, maybe
23:24:16 <zzo38> Which software projects do, anyways?
23:37:10 <b_jonas> no, the software project doesn't directly gain money from that
23:38:40 <zzo38> O OK, although I am not sure why they would need to make it adapts well to a plushie then (unless perhaps they expect other people will want to do), but not that there is anything wrong to make adapts to plushies
23:39:52 <b_jonas> they probably don't need to, yes.
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23:55:35 <esowiki> [[Talk:TPLHBPTBOTEW]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58647&oldid=58643 * Salpynx * (+3) /* Element removal */
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00:39:01 <izabera> i have a thing which has several possible "states"
00:39:26 <izabera> these states are finite and not even that many
00:39:34 <izabera> 66bits are enough to encode all of them
00:39:51 <izabera> state 1 feels less random than state 138924533525526
00:40:34 <izabera> how do i quantify this randomness?
00:42:58 <ais523> one method is by seeing how likely each state is
00:43:12 <izabera> they're all equally likely
00:43:29 <ais523> then I don't see any reason why state 1 would be less random than state 138924533525526
00:43:42 <ais523> the only reason we perceive 1 as being less random is that's a more commonly used number in general
00:43:42 <izabera> state 0 is special and we like it a lot for some reason
00:44:25 <izabera> an easy way to measure this thing would be to take the distance of each state from state 0
00:44:46 <izabera> there's some states that are as far as possible from state 0, which are not very random at all
00:45:43 <izabera> i.e. you can describe those states in a very compact way
00:45:52 <ais523> here's the start of a list of all integers, ordered by how frequently they appear in the Google Books corpus: 1 2 3 4 5 6 10 8 7 9 20 12 15 11 14 0 30 13 16 18 25 17 19 24 100 21 22 50 23 40 28 26 27 29 31 60
00:46:09 <ais523> err, I'm not sure if negative integers are included, the - might be parsed as a punctuation mark
00:46:19 <ais523> so perhaps it's the start of a list of all /nonnegative/ integers with that ordering
00:46:45 <izabera> ais523: do you know how to solve a rubik's cube?
00:46:50 <ais523> hmm, I guess if you're treating state 0 as special, then the specialness of other states would be based on how they related to state 0
00:46:59 <ais523> izabera: I know one algorithm for it, and the general principles behind many others
00:47:10 <izabera> yes that's correct, the specialness is in relation to state 0
00:47:31 <ais523> if this is about a Rubik's Cube, I recommend reading up on the Thistlethwaite algorithm, it seems relevant here
00:47:54 <ais523> in particular, it categorises states by what /sort/ of moves are required to go between them and state 0
00:48:19 <izabera> but still i don't think it's a very good measure
00:48:45 <ais523> hmm, this list of integers ordered by frequency cuts off at frequency 40, containing such integers as 19111919 and 16841721
00:48:59 <ais523> there are 245164 integers that appear at least 40 times in the corpus
00:49:34 <izabera> so there's this state that's called a superflip
00:49:54 <ais523> meanwhile, 395000000000000 has a full 46 occurrences!
00:49:57 <izabera> basically all the corners are solved, and all the edges are in the right position but flipped
00:49:57 <ais523> this is like art in its own way
00:50:12 <ais523> and by some metrics, it's the furthest you can get from the starting state
00:50:38 <izabera> it's the first case that was proved to require 20 moves
00:50:46 <izabera> 20 moves is the diameter of the graph
00:51:01 <izabera> can't go farther than that from the solved state
00:51:13 <izabera> but it's absolutely trivial and totally not random
00:51:38 <ais523> there are two metrics, in one of them the furthest-known position is apparently unique (as in, the only known position), in the other, there are lots of ties
00:51:54 <ais523> but both of them have either superflip or a variant of it as one of the furthest-known positions
00:54:19 <ais523> if it's not unique in half-turn metric, then it must be quarter-turn metric which has the believed-unique maximal-moves pattern
00:54:25 <ais523> (which IIRC is superflip with some of the centres swaped)
00:55:58 <izabera> https://ruwix.com/pics/rubiks-cube/patterns/six-spots.svg things like this have 0 solved pieces, 0 pieces with the right orientation, and yet are absolutely trivial and they don't feel random
00:56:12 <izabera> thistlethwaite would vomit by only looking at it
00:57:17 <ais523> you might want to categorise by symmetries, in that case
00:57:36 <ais523> patterns like that are easy because their symmetries make it easier to spot a solution
00:57:55 <ais523> besides, isn't that pattern solvable with only slice moves? that's the exact sort of rule that thistlethwaite-like algorithms are good at picking up on
00:58:38 <ais523> the first step in the Thistlethwaite algorithm is to orient the corners
00:58:47 <izabera> do you even know what you're talking about
00:58:53 <ais523> and the corners in that pattern are clearly correctly oriented, if all in the wrong position
00:59:19 <izabera> none of them is correctly oriented, and the first step in th is not to orient corners
00:59:51 <ais523> izabera: the aim in Thistlethwaite, as written, is to get into a position from which you can ban moves on two opposite faces
00:59:55 <izabera> corner orientation is in <R U>
01:00:20 <ais523> err, ban quarter-moves on two opposite faces
01:01:01 <ais523> I'm having trouble remembering what the restrictions are for each of the four phases
01:01:03 <izabera> you go from <R L U D F B> to <R L U D F2 B2> to <R2 L2 U D F2 B2> to <R2 L2 U2 D2 F2 B2> to solved
01:01:18 <ais523> it's the second step that locks the orientation of the corners, right
01:01:27 <ais523> because whatever face of the corner is on U/D is stuck there
01:02:14 <ais523> anyway, you can imagine a Thistlethwaite-like algorithm which uses different move sets
01:02:35 <ais523> e.g. one in which one of the sets allows the three slice moves (both quarter-turn and half-turn), but not any individual face moves
01:03:06 <ais523> the pattern you linked belongs (I think) to that set, which is a notable property of it, even if it doesn't neatly fall into any of the "normal" Thistlethwaite sets
01:15:23 <izabera> ok i'll correct myself, the six-dots case only has 8 flipped edges
01:16:09 <izabera> and depending on how you look at it, the first step in th is 4 moves and the second one is 4 moves and the last 2 are skipped
01:16:49 <izabera> well depending on how you look at it, you get to distribute the same 8 moves over the 4 steps
01:17:03 <ais523> anyway, even if I have the details wrong (and I probably do), six-spot is the sort of pattern that you'd expect to be solvable with only a subset of the legal moves
01:17:27 <b_jonas> currentliy featured question on StackOverflow asks how to do loops in metafont/ancient-APL style https://stackoverflow.com/q/53689001/
01:17:45 <b_jonas> wait, a rubik's cube question?
01:17:56 <izabera> ais523: i don't necessarily think that that is a good way to estimate what i want
01:18:03 <ais523> b_jonas: that doesn't look featured to me
01:18:28 <b_jonas> "66 bits are enough to encode all of them" => hmm, didn't it fit in 65 5bits?
01:19:09 <izabera> a little less than ~65.23 bits
01:19:15 <b_jonas> ais523: => wow, that's an interesting frequency list
01:19:47 <ais523> yes, I thought it was interesting too
01:20:19 <ais523> apparently this sequence is not on OEIS yet
01:20:44 <ais523> (and we'd probably want an up-to-date version of the corpus before adding it, mine's a bit old)
01:20:52 <b_jonas> ais523: does that count occurrences with or without multiplicity throughout books?
01:20:59 <ais523> it's also one of the longest inherently finite sequences I've seen
01:21:02 <ais523> b_jonas: with multiplicity
01:21:24 <ais523> as in, a number that's used once in 40 books and a number that's used 40 times in a single book will both have a frequency of 40
01:22:00 <b_jonas> ais523: how many times does 244823040 appear?
01:22:17 <shachaf> ais523: Was your general monad ? operator delimited by function?
01:23:08 <ais523> shachaf: it needs some definition of what scope it runs over; Rust's definition is "a function, or a block marked 'catch'" which seems reasonable; having it apply to a single block is also reasonable I think
01:23:29 <shachaf> But that makes {}/; not associative, right?
01:23:34 <izabera> this question is because a friend of mine wanted to come up with some position that was considered "hard" in any possible method
01:24:10 <ais523> shachaf: it's OK for {} to not be associative, I think; they aren't in Rust anyway because of lifetimes
01:24:16 <ais523> so Rust doesn't care about that
01:24:28 <ais523> and I'm not sure they inherently need to be associative in other languages either
01:24:56 <shachaf> Well, Haskell requires do { do { a; b }; c } = do { a; do { b; c } }
01:25:53 <b_jonas> "one in which one of the sets allows the three slice moves" => that would be very small and so almost useless
01:26:08 <ais523> b_jonas: it's not that small if you allow quarter turns
01:26:26 <b_jonas> ais523: sorry, it's not featured. it's hot.
01:27:31 <ais523> b_jonas: here's a featured challenge on PPCG at the moment: https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/105127/fastest-mini-flak-quine
01:27:43 <ais523> which will end up having to be featured three times, there was a 1100 rep bounty on it
01:27:48 <ais523> (which takes a while to hand out…)
01:28:30 <b_jonas> "one of the longest inherently finite sequences I've seen" => no way. there are interesting mathematically defined sequences that go to at least tetration sized numbers, perhaps more. most of them are more interesting as sets than as sequences, but those are still often put into OEIS.
01:31:07 <ais523> yes, but I haven't seen them
01:31:08 <b_jonas> ais523: re 1100 rep bounty, I used to think such couldn't be awarded at all, at least by a single user, because SE docs "https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/help/bounty" say "Additionally, if you offer multiple bounties on the same question, the minimum spend doubles with each subsequent bounty"
01:31:16 <ais523> the doubling caps at 500
01:31:26 <ais523> but someone else is awarding the spare 100 to reach a number that isn't divisible by 500
01:31:33 <b_jonas> ais523: "seen" in what sense? they wouldn't be listed explicitly on your screen obviously
01:32:00 <ais523> I guess it's finite and growing
01:32:14 <ais523> any day, someone could publish a book that contains the fourtieth copy of a brand new number :-D
01:33:07 <ais523> (and of course, the original source material has to go beyond the things with 40 copies into things with 39 copies, and so on down to 1; it's just that the list I have handy stops there)
01:33:34 <b_jonas> ais523: Baez probably knows more about this, but I think there's some small congruance class, one of 6k+1, 6k-1, 4k+1, 4k-1, such that most small primes fall into one, but eventually the complementary class takes over at some very large threshold, and of course around that it switches a lot
01:34:23 <ais523> b_jonas: I know about that too (4n-1 vs. 4n+1 is the best known)
01:34:28 <ais523> but it doesn't really define a finite sequence
01:34:44 <ais523> because it swaps back at some point
01:35:05 <ais523> it defines a large /number/, but that's different
01:35:12 <ais523> I guess you could call the digits of that number a sequence
01:36:17 <b_jonas> ais523: it probably swaps out at many points, so the set of numbers n such there are more primes less than n in that congruence class would be a set, not just a number
01:36:39 <b_jonas> the set of natural numbers, say
01:36:50 <ais523> yes, the interesting number is the lowest element of that set, which is still quite large
01:37:16 <b_jonas> anyway, yes, that's probably not one of the more interesting large finite sequences
01:38:37 <ais523> oh, it's not that big, 26833
01:39:41 <ais523> big enough that it'd take a while to discover without the help of computers, though!
01:44:33 <ais523> I think there's a related problem where it's much larger
01:45:20 <b_jonas> ais523: I think it was a different sequence then
01:45:39 <b_jonas> ais523: hmm, but isn't the largest such number much bigger?
01:45:47 <b_jonas> it's the largest such number that's really interesting, not the smallest one,
01:46:00 <b_jonas> because there can be "random" anomalies around small primes
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01:47:21 <ais523> there are infinitely many such numbers, so there isn't a largest
01:49:33 <b_jonas> um, the largest number outside that set then
01:50:14 <ais523> there are infinitely many of those, too
01:53:25 <b_jonas> hmm, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimal_solutions_for_Rubik%27s_Cube says the number of states with the maximal number of turns for the quater-turn metric is not known, but only very few such positions are known.
01:53:46 <b_jonas> not surprising, but I don't really pay attention to the quater-turn metric
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01:55:46 <b_jonas> I was surprised back in 2010 when the 20 move upper bound proof for the face turn metric was announced, on how early it's been found
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02:38:06 <esowiki> [[Talk:Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58648&oldid=33787 * BradensEsolangs * (+149) /* Name */ new section
02:41:07 <esowiki> [[Talk:Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58649&oldid=58648 * Ais523 * (+432) /* Name */ some history
02:43:05 <esowiki> [[Talk:Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58650&oldid=58649 * Ais523 * (+118) OK, so now the spambot's made me visit IMDB to verify the details
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04:24:05 <zzo38> Does any web browser have a "save form" command?
04:28:56 <zzo38> Is there any proposal for a PNG chunk for XPM palettes?
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06:37:40 <zzo38> Now I wrote a specification for using XPM colours in PNG. This allows you to define the preferred mono or grey representation of a colour picture, as well as to do such things as match text colours and background colours of a document.
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07:42:33 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58651&oldid=58001 * Ais523 * (+1186) /* The Waterfall Model */ Hello, world!
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07:59:41 <esowiki> [[The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58652&oldid=58558 * Ais523 * (+105) /* External resources */ link Ratiofall
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08:59:46 <b_jonas> zzo38: I could be wrong, but I sort of have the impression that graphic designers are very different from us, and they don't want that kind of tool
09:00:00 <b_jonas> including the ones that design game graphics
09:00:59 <b_jonas> also, not many people use grayscale graphics on displays anymore, it's mostly used in print
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11:48:10 <wob_jonas> ais523: re primes mod 4, let's see in https://arxiv.org/abs/math/0408319
11:49:16 <wob_jonas> ais523: however, it also says that I was wrong, the sequence is infinite
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12:03:20 <wob_jonas> that article probably has the plots were made by Mathematica, because it uses the Mathematica font
12:18:10 <wob_jonas> slashlearn Nobel//"Nobel" is Norwegian for "noble", a title of honor awarded by kings.
12:18:35 <myname> i wonder if there are people who call the nobel price "fields medal of chemistry/physics/..."
12:19:45 <wob_jonas> I dunno. but there are people who point out that there are at least three awards that are sometimes called the "Nobel prize of mathematics"
12:21:32 <myname> great for the mathematitians
12:30:38 <Taneb> I think we should call more things Nobel prizes of their respective categories
12:31:01 <Taneb> Like "The Nobel prize of sheep shearing in Northumberland"
12:33:11 <myname> the nobel prize of sports
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13:11:01 <wob_jonas> and the IOCCC judges award the Nobel prize of obfuscated programming
13:13:51 <myname> obfuscated C programming
13:14:28 <FireFly> or, really, just the Nobel prize of C programming
13:18:39 <myname> i like the contest to create the largest c++ error message better
13:19:34 <wob_jonas> how about the http://www.underhanded-c.org/ _
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13:29:33 <wob_jonas> myname: https://tgceec.tumblr.com/ ?
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14:13:41 <wob_jonas> AHAHAHA apparently mailing list web archives aren't the only ones affected by overzelous "email address protection" filters:
14:14:13 <wob_jonas> "https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/119594" is a vendor's page with specs of a camera they make, and it says "Photo burst: 3/[email protected], 5/[email protected] or 10/[email protected]"
14:15:50 <wob_jonas> probably automatically decodes it in client side if you allow javascript or something
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18:36:45 <esowiki> [[Hurgusburgus]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58653 * BradensEsolangs * (+3687) Created page with "'''Hurgusburgus''' is a programming language by [[User:BradensEsolangs|Braden]], to be very confusing. ==The basics of Hurgusburgus== Hurgusburgus is based on a [[queue]]. A p..."
18:37:13 <esowiki> [[User:BradensEsolangs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58654&oldid=58644 * BradensEsolangs * (+43)
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18:46:11 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58655&oldid=57519 * BradensEsolangs * (-11) Hmmm, brain is not a swear word
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18:51:24 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58656&oldid=58566 * BradensEsolangs * (+19) /* H */
18:57:57 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Baidicoot * New user account
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19:08:47 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58657&oldid=58635 * Baidicoot * (+253) /* Introductions */
19:46:51 <esowiki> [[Butng]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58658 * Baidicoot * (+1317) Created page with "== What is Butng? == Butng was originally created by [User:Baidicoot|Baidicoot] as an extension of lambda calculus. However, it has since grown, and, with the help of [User:Go..."
19:59:49 <esowiki> [[Butng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58659&oldid=58658 * Baidicoot * (+820)
20:08:25 <esowiki> [[Brain-Flak]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58660&oldid=58536 * BradensEsolangs * (+4)
20:11:29 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58661&oldid=58606 * BradensEsolangs * (+47) /* Implementations */
20:21:37 <esowiki> [[Butng]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58662&oldid=58659 * Baidicoot * (+10) /* Placeholder Law */
20:22:17 <esowiki> [[Butng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58663&oldid=58662 * Baidicoot * (+14)
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20:42:25 <mniip> help me design a language
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21:09:56 <esowiki> [[Butng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58664&oldid=58663 * Zzo38 * (-14) User links weren't working; the user pages still do not exist yet
21:10:16 <mniip> something that is the next step above assembler
21:10:33 <mniip> with a real simple compiler
21:10:45 <mniip> I'm thinking forth-like
21:11:38 <mniip> but with functions, stackframes, and "backwards compatibility" with machine code in terms of data/text mixins
21:22:01 <b_jonas> mniip: by `"backwards compatibility" with machine code", you mean a well-defined ABI?
21:22:21 <b_jonas> or a foreign call interface or both?
21:22:44 <mniip> inline machine code
21:24:15 <b_jonas> mniip: and what platform/architecture does the compiler compile to?
21:26:21 <mniip> I am willing to ignore segmentation and consider that everything is bound to the CS segment
21:27:42 <zzo38> Would it be capable of making DOS programs?
21:27:44 <b_jonas> mniip: the original 8086? 16 bit mode?
21:27:51 <mniip> zzo38, COM programs yeah
21:28:18 <zzo38> OK. COM already sets the code and data segments same automatically, so you do not have to do that.
21:28:47 <mniip> zzo38, what I meant is I don't have to design the language around far pointers and the like
21:28:51 <b_jonas> all four of the original 8086 segment registers in fact
21:30:08 <b_jonas> which is useful because 8086 instructions implicitly refer to all four in some cases
21:30:25 <b_jonas> so if you stick to a single segment, then you never have to add segment overrides
21:36:08 <b_jonas> mniip: and what do you want the compiler to run on?
21:39:05 <b_jonas> mniip: there are some small forth native compilers for 8086, colorforth being one of the more infamous ones, you could look at those.
21:39:19 <b_jonas> though those are partly implemented in themselves, rather than raw 8086
21:42:44 <mniip> I wonder if I need keywords
21:44:19 <zzo38> There is possibility to have keywords but that aren't reserved words.
21:45:06 <mniip> nah I mean symbolic keywords vs alphanumeric keywords
21:46:15 <zzo38> Yes, OK, I know now how you mean
21:46:20 <oren> mniip: if you have a stropping system, it makes it easier to have keywords
21:47:03 <oren> mniip: like if all keywords start with a particualr symbol
21:47:11 <zzo38> Requiring apostrophes around all keywords
21:47:43 <oren> or in fortran, less than is .lt.
21:48:11 <zzo38> (You can also do it other way around, or require a prefix symbol for nonkeywords like LLVM does, or do like SQL does that you can optionally put quotation marks around a name if you want to make it to be treated as not a keyword)
21:49:35 <b_jonas> mniip: or, it's not a forth-alike, but you can look at http://www.vttoth.com/CMS/index.php/projects/49
21:49:47 <b_jonas> only you'd implement it in 8086 directly, not in itself
21:50:11 <b_jonas> it doesn't have inline machine code, only machine code as separate functions, but it wouldn't be hard to add inline machine code with some register use convention
21:51:22 <b_jonas> as in, add an emit statement that lets you directly emit bytes of machine code, 16-bit addresses of global variables or functions, and 8-bit address of local variables relative to BP
22:07:54 <b_jonas> apparently there's some disagreement in how the libc fscanf function should handle inputs that require more than one byte of lookahead, which comes up in the %g, %x and %i formats.
22:11:28 <mniip> you mean wrt the file pointer?
22:12:40 <b_jonas> mniip: that too, but more whether the partial input is accepted (as in, fscanf fills the variable with the parsed value and continues on with the pattern, as opposed to rejecting the partial input by not modifying the variable and stopping the pattern right there)
22:25:08 <esowiki> [[Hurgusburgus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58665&oldid=58653 * BradensEsolangs * (+45)
22:25:44 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58666&oldid=58661 * BradensEsolangs * (+0) /* Hurgusburgus */ Should be a zero, not a space.
22:27:26 <esowiki> [[Hurgusburgus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58667&oldid=58665 * BradensEsolangs * (+5)
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22:59:08 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58668&oldid=58655 * Rdebath * (+11) Undo revision 58655 by [[Special:Contributions/BradensEsolangs|BradensEsolangs]] ([[User talk:BradensEsolangs|talk]]) (Someone else didn't get the joke.)
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23:24:34 <mniip> ok, I think I came up with a specification
23:29:20 <mniip> :add :1{ @2 @1 + $: }
23:30:23 <mniip> no wait that doesn't work
23:30:27 <mniip> :add :0{ @2 @1 + $: }
23:30:49 <mniip> :add :1{ @2 @1 + $=0 $: }
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23:33:10 <int-e> mniip: are you inventing a stack-based virtual machine?
23:33:51 <mniip> int-e, a mix of forth and assembler
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23:43:16 <b_jonas> mniip: that's not a specification
23:43:28 <mniip> b_jonas, correct, those were examples
23:43:48 <mniip> probably not useful to you but helps me clear up my mind!
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01:12:07 <zzo38> I have some Christmas lights that some days it is flashy and other days it doesn't flash do you know why?
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01:50:37 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58669&oldid=58668 * BradensEsolangs * (+12)
01:53:28 <ais523> hmm, are there any simple processor-dependend esolangs that compile via search-and-replace to machine code?
01:53:35 <ais523> *processor-independent
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02:01:06 <zzo38> If not, then try to make it up, please
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02:11:11 <ais523> brainfuck is close, the only thing that doesn't translate directly is […]
02:11:42 <ais523> perhaps you could somehow use the call stack as a "start of loop" stack to compile dofuck?
02:12:40 <shachaf> That's where [] is do-while instead of while?
02:13:13 <ais523> always runs at least one iteration
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02:14:51 <shachaf> According to logs of this channel it's TC
02:15:51 <ais523> I know, I think I was there at the time
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02:50:07 <zzo38> Yes, if it is do-while then you could use a stack.
02:52:46 <mniip> what if instead + => inc (%rax)
02:53:17 <mniip> we translated + => jc .+5; inc (%rax); clc;
02:53:34 <mniip> then a [ could skip ahead by setting stc
02:54:29 <zzo38> What about nested loops then?
02:54:36 <mniip> that's where the stakc comes in
02:55:00 <zzo38> O, OK, you could then store the flag in the stack
02:56:17 <mniip> if carry is set, you push one and set carry, otherwise if condition is true then you push return address and clear carry, otherwise you push zero and set carry
02:57:05 <mniip> on ], if carry is set, pop number into carry flag; otherwise pop number into instruction pointer
02:58:15 <zzo38> The call stack also works differently for different instruction sets. There are other differences too.
02:58:33 <zzo38> Yes, what you mention can work
02:58:45 <zzo38> That is a good idea
02:59:38 <mniip> you need IP relative call and no hardware stackframes
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03:07:39 <zzo38> MMIX has a register stack, and the GETA instruction can be used for relative addressing, and GO can be used to jump. There is then also PUSHJ and POP, as well as GET and PUT to alter the return address register
03:11:29 <zzo38> And then Z-machine code is another different thing: Subroutines must be aligned and must begin with a header specifying the local variables, and there is no way to find the return address. There are built-in stack frames.
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03:15:13 <zzo38> And then, TAVERN does not have any relative jumps at all, making it more difficult.
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04:08:09 <imode> has anybody seen u0_a101 lately?
04:09:33 <imode> the last time I saw him was back in august..
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05:55:04 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Quiddity * New user account
05:57:01 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58670&oldid=58657 * Quiddity * (+173) add self
06:03:18 <esowiki> [[SARTRE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58671&oldid=36242 * Quiddity * (+374) add description, fix link, remove {{stub}}
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08:19:52 <zzo38> I have now set up a Netsubscribe server, as well as the interface to use it with twtxt. Subscriptions are not yet implemented, but perhaps in future it might be
08:21:32 <myname> what does that even mean
08:23:42 <zzo38> Netsubscribe is a protocol I invented. I have also implemented a program called "netsubsc", which is available at the Fossil repository: http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/netsubsc.ui/ Currenly subscriptions/notifications are not implemented, although I intend it will be in future (you are free to help if you want to do!) Try connecting to my computer on port 9296
08:26:51 <zzo38> The protocol documentation is http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/netsubscribe I mentioned this before on here too
08:26:55 <zzo38> Does that explain?
08:28:33 <esowiki> [[Butng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58672&oldid=58664 * Baidicoot * (+30) /* Placeholder Law */
08:28:40 <esowiki> [[One Instruction Set Computer]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58673 * Ais523 * (+18) redirect from the expansion of the acronym to the page about it
08:28:53 <esowiki> [[Category:OISC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58674&oldid=46454 * Ais523 * (+4) link from category to the mainspace article on the subject
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08:46:42 <esowiki> [[Butng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58675&oldid=58672 * Baidicoot * (+375) /* Scopes */
08:47:34 <myname> do you reinvent the early internet?
08:53:04 <zzo38> I did not reinvent the internet; it is the same internet that it always is
08:53:45 <zzo38> It is still version 4; it is not version 1 of the internet
09:00:07 <esowiki> [[Simpler Subskin]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58676 * Ais523 * (+4107) new language
09:00:45 <esowiki> [[Simpler Subskin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58677&oldid=58676 * Ais523 * (+17) /* Definition */ clarify the irreversibility
09:01:32 <esowiki> [[Subskin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58678&oldid=54349 * Ais523 * (+22) /* See also */ [[Simpler Subskin]]
09:02:06 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58679&oldid=58656 * Ais523 * (+22) /* S */ +[[Simpler Subskin]]
09:02:41 <esowiki> [[User:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58680&oldid=58487 * Ais523 * (+21) +[[Simpler Subskin]]
09:03:43 <esowiki> [[Simpler Subskin]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58681&oldid=58677 * Ais523 * (+0) /* Definition */ fix thinko
09:06:53 <esowiki> [[OISC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58682&oldid=56652 * Ais523 * (+142) /* List of OISCs */ +[[Simpler Subskin]]
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09:46:14 <oerjan> @ask Sgeo_ <Sgeo_> ...darn I just wanted to say something to oerjan about Archie search being dead <-- you're complaining about a file i probably haven't touched in two decades?
09:50:55 <Taneb> Wow, there's about a 5/6 chance that was before I was born
09:58:27 <oerjan> Taneb: 14 March to be precise
09:59:26 <oerjan> the time of day is probably not precise, seems to be listed as 12:00 for all the files
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10:04:37 <Taneb> oerjan: that is before I was born
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10:14:41 <shachaf> Taneb: it was a 100% chance hth
10:21:07 <Taneb> shachaf: only retroactively
10:35:31 <shachaf> invent anything good lately?
10:35:56 <shachaf> maybe a fancy superhuman ai?
10:36:20 <Taneb> I would be surprised if I had
10:36:54 <HackEso> Tanebventions include necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, Italian, the grace period, the Oxford comma, the limerick, ruin, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths or tanebventions: foods. He never invents anything involving sex.
10:37:10 <HackEso> A limerick is a verse with two left metrical feet and three right metrical feet.
10:37:33 <HackEso> special relativity? ¯\(°_o)/¯
10:38:07 <HackEso> annus mirabilis? ¯\(°_o)/¯
10:39:17 <shachaf> 1994: the year Taneb invented the universe
10:47:37 <oerjan> `` dowg tanebvention | grep relativ
10:47:39 <HackEso> 9258:2016-10-13 <shachäf> slwd tanebvention//s#the triverse#special relativity#
10:48:05 <oerjan> `slwd tanebvention//s;, special relativity;;
10:48:12 <HackEso> tanebvention//Tanebventions include necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, metar, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, Italian, the grace period, the Oxford comma, the limerick, ruin, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths or tanebventions: foods. He never invents anything involving sex.
10:49:19 <HackEso> The grace period was invented by Taneb to give him more time to invent the Oxford comma.
10:49:52 <HackEso> grace period:The grace period was invented by Taneb to give him more time to invent the Oxford comma. \ oxford:Oxford is the home of English, woven shirts, and the serial comma. \ tanebvention:Tanebventions include necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, metar, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, Italian, the grace period, the Oxford comma, the limerick, ruin, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths or ta
10:50:18 <HackEso> 2/2:r tanebventions: foods. He never invents anything involving sex.
10:50:20 <Taneb> oerjan: things I haven't invented yet include Indiana Jones, the Oxford comma and a very long piece of rope
10:50:38 <Taneb> Although that does remind me of something I did invent
10:51:03 <Taneb> A new unit of time, the light-piece of string, which is the time it takes for light to travel the length of a piece of string in a vacuum
10:51:08 <oerjan> `slwd tanebvention//s;, the Oxford comma;;
10:51:10 <HackEso> tanebvention//Tanebventions include necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, metar, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, Italian, the grace period, the limerick, ruin, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths or tanebventions: foods. He never invents anything involving sex.
10:51:35 <oerjan> `slwd grace period//s;.$;, but he ran out anyway.;
10:51:37 <HackEso> grace period//The grace period was invented by Taneb to give him more time to invent the Oxford comma, but he ran out anyway.
10:52:13 <oerjan> `doag tanebvention | grep xford
10:52:26 <oerjan> `dowg tanebvention | grep xford
10:52:41 <Taneb> Considering where I live maybe I should invent the Cambridge comma instead
10:53:00 <oerjan> `` dowg tanebvention | grep xford
10:53:02 <HackEso> 11673:2018-12-11 <oerjän> slwd tanebvention//s;, the Oxford comma;; \ 9222:2016-10-10 <shachäf> slwd tanebvention//s#and#the Oxford comma, and#
10:56:09 <HackEso> tanebvention:Tanebventions include necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, metar, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, Italian, the grace period, the limerick, ruin, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths or tanebventions: foods. He never invents anything involving sex. \ virgil:Virgil is a prayer at dawn, as well as an ancient Italian poet who led Dante to hell so they can ask the blind transgendered see
10:56:18 <HackEso> 2/2: seer Anchises stupid politics questions concerning contemporary noble families.
10:56:46 * oerjan smells b_jonas in the second one
10:57:32 <oerjan> `le/rn italian//Italian is the most melodious language known. Taneb invented it to sing better in the shower.
10:57:34 <HackEso> Learned 'italian': Italian is the most melodious language known. Taneb invented it to sing better in the shower.
10:59:22 * oerjan worries if that's too private.
10:59:55 <oerjan> Taneb: you don't happen to sing in a choir, do you?
11:00:09 <Taneb> I am trying to learn Italian, though
11:00:43 <oerjan> i guess that'll have to do.
11:01:15 <shachaf> Taneb: How long is a piece of string?
11:02:22 <shachaf> oerjan: whoa whoa whoa, what happened to `learn
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11:04:16 <shachaf> Taneb: did you invent the photoelectric effect also
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11:12:54 <esowiki> [[Talk:Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58683&oldid=58650 * Oerjan * (+298) /* Name */ It makes perfect sense. Trust me.
11:13:56 <Taneb> I tried to watch Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster once
11:14:05 <oerjan> shachaf: oops. i think i started thinking up something where "Italian" wasn't first, then changed my mind.
11:14:55 <oerjan> Taneb: was it too horrible to contemplate?
11:15:06 <Taneb> oerjan: it was just kind of boring
11:15:18 <Taneb> Might have helped if I'd seen the first two
11:15:48 <HackEso> einstein:einstein is a germaneau for "a stone"
11:16:43 <int-e> `` diff bin/grwp bin/grWp
11:16:44 <HackEso> 1,2c1 \ < #! /bin/bash \ < cd wisdom; shopt -s dotglob; grep -R "$@" -- * \ --- \ > grwp -i "$@"
11:17:19 <int-e> so much insensitivity
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11:31:40 <esowiki> [[SARTRE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58684&oldid=58671 * Oerjan * (+34) Bare URLs are scow
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11:32:15 <esowiki> [[Template:Catseye]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58685&oldid=36281 * Oerjan * (+1) Use https
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11:34:48 <oerjan> i suppose a lot of catseye links are broken nowadays, the template is for the site moving, not cpressey reorganizing...
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11:39:19 <wob_jonas> oerjan: maybe cpressey is reorganizing the sane way, with proper redirects so that all old links continue to work?
11:42:13 <oerjan> no, the link prior to Quiddity's edit was broken.
11:54:31 <wob_jonas> ais523: something like that could be done for x86_64, but it's hard, because can't easily get named symbols, unless, you can do advanced search-and-replaces with backrefs, like in sed, or replaces into the search patterns, like in Fuun DNA or /// .
11:55:02 <wob_jonas> you could still do something without that, but it involves the runtime starting by making a jump table or even a full dynamic linker.
11:56:21 <wob_jonas> the simplest is probably to just set up a global table that you can index with small integers and points to globals, and put a simple header in front of functions that at the start of runtime searches for the start of the next header and fills the entry with a specified index in the global table.
11:56:33 <wob_jonas> That's a bit ugly, but could be done rather easily, with just simple search and replace.
11:57:00 <wob_jonas> The runtime would probably have to read through all the code in linear once at start time to locate the headers, but that's not too bad.
11:58:09 <wob_jonas> But it's hard to tell what doesn't count as cheating, since the runtime could involve a whole interpreter.
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13:59:03 <esowiki> [[Rotten]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58686 * FireCubez * (+493) Created page with "'''Rotten''' is a joke esolang whose programs can have 2 forms: * <code><string></code> - Implicitly converted to `13$<string>` * <code><n>$<string></code> - Unescape the str..."
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14:08:58 <esowiki> [[Rotten]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58687&oldid=58686 * FireCubez * (+298)
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14:25:04 <esowiki> [[Rotten]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58688&oldid=58687 * FireCubez * (+2) /* Fibonacci Sequence */
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15:07:08 <esowiki> [[Butng]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58689&oldid=58675 * Plokmijnuhby * (+0) Most languages use backslashes as escapes, but HTML likes to do its own thing.
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17:07:40 <esowiki> [[Butng]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58690&oldid=58689 * Baidicoot * (-44) Rephrased out 'value' for clarity
17:10:03 <esowiki> [[Butng]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58691&oldid=58690 * Baidicoot * (+61) actually finished a sentance
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18:04:28 * oerjan frappe Luciole -----###
18:07:52 <oerjan> the french verb seems a bit less specific
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20:55:38 <oren> oerjan: le force de frappe
21:17:36 <int-e> . o O ( A guillotine is the ultimate hair-splitting device. )
21:29:36 <int-e> “Ring – a – ring of roses, a pocketful of posies, Atischo, Atischo, We all fall DOWN.”?!!!!
21:32:26 <int-e> (also it appears that "attischo" is the preferred spelling)
21:34:27 <int-e> fun. https://quizlet.com/107613526/grade-8-history-the-bubonic-plague-test-4-flash-cards/
22:05:03 <esowiki> [[User:BradensEsolangs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58692&oldid=58654 * BradensEsolangs * (+51)
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22:58:06 <oren> eh k s eh k s eh k s t eh n t aa s iy ow n
23:08:16 <oren> stupid mumble rapper stop having marginal phonemes in your stupid ass names
23:10:53 <oren> we don't have a fucking nasal o in our ENGLISH language model
23:11:05 <oren> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
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00:21:15 <esowiki> [[Talk:Unary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58693&oldid=36637 * BradensEsolangs * (+135) /* A quine in Unary */
00:23:22 <esowiki> [[Talk:PP TIBSA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58694&oldid=55600 * BradensEsolangs * (+28) /* ... */ new section
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08:11:03 <esowiki> [[Unary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58695&oldid=54638 * Keymaker * (+796) A loop example just for fun.
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10:02:39 <lambdabot> LOWI 120950Z 27008KT 9999 FEW025 SCT070 M02/M08 Q1023 NOSIG
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14:00:00 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Cycliccircle * New user account
14:03:01 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58696&oldid=58670 * Cycliccircle * (+38)
14:19:59 <esowiki> [[User:BradensEsolangs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58697&oldid=58692 * BradensEsolangs * (+25)
14:20:25 <myname> this one seems to have big plans
14:21:37 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58698&oldid=57064 * BradensEsolangs * (+158) /* Maybe esoteric programming is an adult/mature-content subject ... ? */
14:22:23 <esowiki> [[User talk:Oerjan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58699&oldid=57734 * BradensEsolangs * (+170) /* Any admins left? */ new section
14:24:31 <esowiki> [[User talk:Oerjan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58700&oldid=58699 * BradensEsolangs * (+124) /* Any admins left? */
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14:38:04 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58701&oldid=57570 * BradensEsolangs * (+242) /* Featured articles */ new section
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17:37:01 <oren> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRTfhkiAqPw
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17:38:25 <int-e> oren: which is it, overcute anime or horrible repetetive music or both?
17:40:04 <oren> int-e: neither. a video on why "object oriented programming is embarassing"
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17:40:51 <imode> is it that dude who has a hardon for nested functions.
17:44:11 <int-e> "The world is full of bad programmers and currently, most of them are doing OO" - I read that 15 to 20 years ago, and I forgot where I found it.
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18:02:16 <oren> I like the part the part where he says that past a certain level of complexity the UML diagram can't be planar but doesn't appear to know the word "planar"
18:02:52 <oren> at 14:20 or so in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRTfhkiAqPw
18:03:28 <imode> while I'm not a fan of OO he has some rather odd justifications for his arguments.
18:15:45 <esowiki> [[User talk:Oerjan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58702&oldid=58700 * Oerjan * (+157) /* Any admins left? */ Nope.
18:19:51 <esowiki> [[Talk:PP TIBSA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58703&oldid=58694 * Oerjan * (+100) gunsnide
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18:41:37 <HackEso> olist 1148: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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19:30:14 <oerjan> <oren> we don't have a fucking nasal o in our ENGLISH language model <-- just be happy as long as they don't use xhosa hth
19:49:22 <int-e> how did you get there from "nasal"?
19:49:53 <int-e> (you should not sniff pizza, hth)
19:57:43 <int-e> shachaf: it may get stuck in your sinuses for starters
20:01:51 <int-e> of course oerjan was sneezing heavily yesterday
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20:20:05 <oerjan> int-e: i'm not sniffing pizza, i keep the two paper towels separate hth
20:21:05 <oerjan> int-e: also i'm just implying the rappers could use far worse phonemes than a nasal o
20:22:29 <int-e> Uh-oh... that got me... let's be generous and call it "thinking": How does one write down farts in the IPA?
20:23:10 * oerjan has Qongqothwane on his list of songs to maybe learn someday. that ngq seems quite fiendish.
20:25:42 <oerjan> i'm sneezing heavier today hth
20:27:02 <oerjan> i suspect ipa doesn't have symbols for sounds not made with the head
20:27:27 <oerjan> although there might be a bilabial trill symbol
20:27:52 <oerjan> i think i may have seen the wikipedia page
20:28:55 <int-e> . o O ( Hmm, what about banging your head against a wall? )
20:29:08 <esowiki> [[Redstone]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58704&oldid=41891 * AIden * (+760)
20:29:10 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilabial_trill and some languages even use it
20:29:36 <esowiki> [[Redstone]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58705&oldid=58704 * AIden * (-5)
20:29:49 <esowiki> [[Redstone]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58706&oldid=58705 * AIden * (+5)
20:29:49 <oerjan> int-e: i considered being more precise but i couldn't think of a word that covered only the relevant cavities
20:32:07 <HackEso> [U+0299 LATIN LETTER SMALL CAPITAL B]
20:32:54 <esowiki> [[Redstone]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58707&oldid=58706 * AIden * (-19)
20:39:12 <esowiki> [[Redstone]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58708&oldid=58707 * AIden * (+179)
21:07:31 <oerjan> explainxkcd here i come
21:19:43 <oerjan> actually i might have got it if my mind hadn't read FDR as JFK, stupid acronyms tdh
21:20:58 <oerjan> well part of it, never heard the actual speech.
21:25:45 * int-e didn't recognize FDR.
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01:33:35 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58709&oldid=58701 * Ais523 * (+498) /* Featured articles */ r to BradensEsolangs
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04:08:20 <imode> why can't I find anybody to work with me.
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04:10:10 <imode> seems like I can't talk to anybody who knows what I'm talking about, and when I find someone, they turn out to be an asshole.
04:10:36 <imode> whereas the ones who don't know what I'm talking about are wonderful people.
04:11:05 <imode> why is it the class of people I can converse with are always the worst.
04:11:08 <zzo38> My computer is a bit dusty. Should I clean it?
04:11:18 <imode> get a can of compressed air.
04:11:36 <imode> or an air compressor.
04:12:17 <zzo38> O, OK. Should I need to open it?
04:15:18 <zzo38> OK. When I replaced the hard drive they also cleaned it with a vacuum cleaner. They did not charge me any money for cleaning it, and I also asked them for a CD and they did not charge me for that either (although I paid 5 cents for it anyways; they accepted donations, and once they gave me the CD I decided I would pay for it; 5 cents is what they estimated it is worth). I did purchase the hard drive from them though.
04:15:40 <imode> sure, you can use a vacuum cleaner.
04:17:07 <zzo38> Tomorrow I could turn it off and open it and clean it perhaps
04:17:35 <zzo38> (I usually leave the computer on, but only turn off the monitor, since it is a internet server)
04:45:40 <imode> I'm gonna dismiss the dude I was working with as a nut.
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06:43:08 <esowiki> [[PISW]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58710&oldid=56711 * Ais523 * (+0) caps in category name
06:43:40 <esowiki> [[MITLML]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58711&oldid=54544 * Ais523 * (+1) spelling of category name
06:44:08 <esowiki> [[High Rise]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58712&oldid=58351 * Ais523 * (+0) spelling of category name
06:44:32 <esowiki> [[Rockstar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58713&oldid=57936 * Ais523 * (+0) caps in category name
06:47:03 <zzo38> There seems no Linux driver for the temperature sensor of my computer, although the temperature for the hard drive can be read with smartctl. The computer doesn't feel hot, though (the monitor is hotter, although not much). I have read to elevate the computer six inches off of the floor, although I am not sure if I have anything to put it on top of, or what should be used.
06:47:53 <zzo38> (I do have the system load average displayed on the system status bar, though, even though I cannot get the temperature displayed there.)
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13:36:41 <lambdabot> ENVA 131320Z 10008KT CAVOK M12/M14 Q1032 NOSIG RMK WIND 670FT VRB03KT
13:37:03 <oerjan> on second thought, i think i'll stay in for another day, and turn up the heat.
13:38:01 <oerjan> (although that's the airport, it's supposedly closer to M7 here.)
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13:38:34 <oerjan> although if i'm still sick tomorrow, i may have to brave the weather to stock up on caffeine (and pizza!)
13:41:37 <oerjan> queen albia is so powerful, which sadly means she'll almost certainly be out of commission before our heroes get to take on the big villain... such is narrative causality.
13:41:49 <fizzie> I just came back from Finland, it was pretty cow there.
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13:41:53 <lambdabot> EFHK 131320Z 02007KT 9999 OVC020 M02/M04 Q1033 NOSIG
13:41:58 <fizzie> Guess now it's sub-cow.
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14:03:15 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Salpynx * uploaded "[[File:Hw2.png]]"
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14:28:22 <esowiki> [[He110!]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58715 * Salpynx * (+3373) Rule 110 meta Joking language
14:32:11 <esowiki> [[He110!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58716&oldid=58715 * Salpynx * (-1) category typo
14:32:31 <paul2520> fizzie: what do you mean cow/sub-cow?
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14:34:20 <esowiki> [[He110!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58717&oldid=58716 * Salpynx * (+13) /* Execution */
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14:55:24 <fizzie> paul2520: It's a channel in-joke, sorry. METAR syntax for temperature (or dew point) that's below zero but rounds to zero is "M00", and cows go moo.
15:12:51 <int-e> Hmm I guess I was not part of *that* in-group.
15:13:34 <int-e> Is anyone freeing the advent of code follow-up problems from the gamified frontend?
15:17:19 <int-e> I got as far as "To play, please identify yourself via one of these services:" and then lost interest.
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17:04:23 <esowiki> [[Butng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58718&oldid=58691 * Baidicoot * (+0) /* Scopes */
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18:09:18 <esowiki> [[Bitter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58719&oldid=57330 * DMC * (+18) /* Tedious memory initialization process */
18:13:57 <esowiki> [[Lambda calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58720&oldid=50776 * Ais523 * (+29) /* See also */ Binary Lambda Calculus deserves a see also, IMO
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19:59:18 <lambdabot> CYYZ 131900Z 09005KT 4SM BR OVC005 01/00 A3020 RMK ST8 SLP237
20:14:30 <oren> https://www.glassdoor.ca/Interview/SoundHound-Interview-RVW6750307.htm
20:14:40 <oren> ^ lol this is hilarious
20:15:26 <oren> apparently pointer arithmetic is "features that most programmers rarely use or consider"
20:20:44 <Luciole> How do you know they asked about pointer arithmetic?
20:26:16 <oren> Luciole: because I know what the interview questions are
20:26:58 <oren> Luciole: we ask about pointer arithmetic, memory management, and bit-logic
20:28:32 <oerjan> obviously those are all essentially to your build system
20:28:46 * oerjan chases muphry around with the swatter
20:31:06 <oren> oerjan: well, memory management is these days. a recurring problem is that GCC runs out of memory
20:31:31 <oerjan> . o O ( well don't use recursion then )
20:32:18 <oerjan> anyway, i thought good memory management these days was all about avoiding pointers.
20:35:31 <esowiki> [[High Rise]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58721&oldid=58712 * Ais523 * (+1070) /* Implementations */ add one
20:35:53 <esowiki> [[High Rise]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58722&oldid=58721 * Ais523 * (-2) implemented
20:36:31 <oerjan> implementary, my dear watson
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20:55:00 <esowiki> [[The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58723&oldid=58652 * Ais523 * (+68) /* External resources */ TIO! link
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21:47:16 <esowiki> [[Magic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58724&oldid=40978 * Voltage2007 * (-5) Fixed grammatical errors
21:55:42 <esowiki> [[0815]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58725&oldid=51053 * Voltage2007 * (-100) /* Language details */ Fixed grammatical errors
21:59:08 <esowiki> [[Minsky machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58726&oldid=57560 * Voltage2007 * (+7) Fixed grammatical errors
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22:04:39 <esowiki> [[Ettore Marmo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58727&oldid=36422 * Voltage2007 * (+1) Fixed grammatical errors
22:04:39 <zzo38> Now my computer is clean
22:05:21 <zzo38> I had to use chopsticks to clean the heat sink
22:06:01 <Luciole> that's an interesting choice
22:08:20 <esowiki> [[Kolmogorov machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58728&oldid=39252 * Voltage2007 * (+1) Fixed grammatical errors
22:09:01 <zzo38> Yes, but what is what I found to work
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22:10:36 <b_jonas> Hmm, there are newer prints and they got rid of the "Only the Ancestor should be revered." flavor text and the preaching bird mystic with the polearm in the image. So Unquestioned Authority enters into the list of cards where I prefer a particular edition over other editions.
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22:16:06 <b_jonas> Another interesting card like that is Dark Ritual: there are various combinations with different art and flavor text, and my favourite is the Ice Age one, which both has the necromancer with the goat horns (styled after Tim) and the flavor text "'Leshrac, my liege, grant me the power I am due' -- Lim-Dul, the Necromancer"
22:16:07 <esowiki> [[$]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58729&oldid=55719 * Voltage2007 * (+15) Fixed grammatical errors
22:16:35 <b_jonas> That's a fun one to chant when you get two mana for the card.
22:24:52 <zzo38> The hard drive in my computer seems to have a broken temperature log. Although it says the temperature history size is 478, only 128 entries are used (from 0 to 127). Do you know how to fix this in smartctl so that it properly uses 128 entries?
22:29:42 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, some there are different prints of cards I also sometimes prefer some over others, although I think you can use any version
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22:53:06 <esowiki> [[He110!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58730&oldid=58717 * Salpynx * (+777) /* Further development */
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23:27:03 <b_jonas> zzo38: certainly, I have used my other Dark Ritual because I haven't bought enough of the Ice Age printing yet
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01:24:17 <esowiki> [[He110!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58731&oldid=58730 * Ais523 * (+732) R110 isn't known Turing-complete from this start
01:24:44 <esowiki> [[Sequential tag]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58732 * Ais523 * (+35) redirect from abbreviated name
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01:42:47 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58733&oldid=58709 * BradensEsolangs * (+157) /* Featured articles */
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04:51:26 <zzo38> I altered how subscription works in the Netsubscribe protocol to what seems to be a better way. The old way (only following targets) seems to have some problems I can think of, so now subscriptions are separate from targets (although targets are still followed to find subscribers).
04:52:37 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Retrac * New user account
06:46:31 <zzo38> Why does the computer make so much noise? There seems no problem with temperatures, fan speeds, or operation of computer. If I had a microphone I might more easily be able to determine exactly where the noise is coming from
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12:18:39 <int-e> Hmm. What aspect of it?
12:19:08 <wob_jonas> int-e: it seems too silent right now
12:19:24 <wob_jonas> as if people were trying to post but their posts don't get through the internet
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13:13:47 <wob_jonas> see? I don't even get your replies.
13:13:59 <wob_jonas> or the people who'd reply don't get my chat
13:33:57 <wob_jonas> `perl -e warn 4*4*4*4 # that should be 256 I think
13:34:05 <wob_jonas> `perl -e warn 4**4 # that should be 256 I think
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15:57:07 <fizzie> From random mailing list chatter, a .hgrc [alias] tip: hg = !/usr/games/cowsay -f stegosaurus $HG_ARGS | /usr/games/lolcat; $HG "$@"
15:57:11 <fizzie> Gives you a little bit of whimsical fun when you accidentally duplicate the "hg" part, perhaps by pausing to think after writing it the first time.
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18:08:05 <oerjan> <-- assuming none of the numbers are zero, a^b=c^d, a*b=c*d seems to imply a^(1/a) = c^(1/c).
18:08:11 <oerjan> <Luciole> 2**8 == 4**4; 2*8 == 4*4 <-- assuming none of the numbers are zero, a^b=c^d, a*b=c*d seems to imply a^(1/a) = c^(1/c).
18:08:45 <oerjan> and then one of b or d can be chosen freely.
18:12:15 <oerjan> a^(1/a) = (a^b)^(1/(a*b)) = (c^d)^(1/(c*d)) = c^(1/c)
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22:08:14 <olsner> fizzie: that hg alias inspired me to make https://gist.github.com/olsner/4555427ccc67a5548268b40651399804 to spruce it up a bit
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22:28:09 <oerjan> apparently it's the neighbor's turn to have a cold.
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22:32:11 <b_jonas> oerjan: now make it so that there's another olist, to make up for the long wait
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22:43:00 <oerjan> omen cannot be rushed, lest turn bad
22:44:42 <oren> I have something which could potentially be a flu
22:45:29 <oren> or could potentially be food poisoning
22:52:58 <b_jonas> oerjan: or maybe drink tea. it's nice to drink even if you don't have the cold anymore.
22:53:24 <int-e> the olist giveth and the olist taketh away
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23:05:09 <b_jonas> by the way, has anyone figured out anything useful about the webcomic artist plague, the hypothetical common cause of the Giant's hand injury and Jeph Jacques's hand injury?
23:06:20 <b_jonas> has any of the other big name hand-drawn webcomic artists like Scott Adams, or the person who makes Schlock Mercenary, catch it too?
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06:12:02 <zzo38> One variant of Scrabble that I read is that you are allowed to exchange your letters with ones already on the board, one at a time, as long as the new letter still causes it to form a valid word. You can do this multiple times per turn, but only one letter is changed at a time.
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09:09:16 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't like the idea for that Scrabble variant. I think it would lead to slow play.
09:09:58 <b_jonas> zzo38: What you could do is to allow only blank tiles to be replaced, even with a different letter than the blank originally designated.
09:10:19 <b_jonas> And possibly add two more blank tiles.
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10:02:26 <Hooloovo0> maybe a rule where you can add letters into existing words, expanding them?
10:07:50 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Salpynx * uploaded "[[File:Hello World! in He110! with other automata rules.png]]"
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10:39:19 <esowiki> [[He110!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58735&oldid=58731 * Salpynx * (+642) /* Further development */ encode other automata edge rules
11:05:56 <esowiki> [[He110!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58736&oldid=58735 * Salpynx * (+1087) /* Examples */ other automata example
12:25:43 <esowiki> [[Symbolic Python]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58737&oldid=53257 * FTcode * (-228)
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12:33:57 <esowiki> [[Symbolic Python]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58738&oldid=58737 * FTcode * (+186)
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12:53:21 <lambdabot> ENVA 151250Z 10006KT CAVOK M13/M16 Q1028 NOSIG RMK WIND 670FT 15013KT
12:54:09 <oerjan> my cold seems to have got worse again (although without the sneezing), so i'm staying inside for the day
12:54:23 <oerjan> which then makes my _back_ complain.
12:55:21 <lambdabot> LOWI 151250Z VRB02KT 9999 FEW030 M03/M09 Q1022 NOSIG
12:55:31 <oerjan> or rather, my back chose to complain today and a walk outside is the usual way i get that better :(
12:57:02 <oerjan> ♫ I am 48, going on 49... ♫
12:57:10 <int-e> you can walk up and down your room
12:58:16 <oerjan> (unless i need a hip replacement. not quite there yet...)
12:59:49 <int-e> (I just stumbled across "Trust on First Use (TOFU)")
13:01:15 <HackEso> 28) <ehird> is there a problem with it being carbonized :D <augur> yes: carbonized coffee bean is known more commonly as "charcoal"
13:02:46 <oerjan> salpynx's he110 makes me wonder if anyone's tried to make something like a hello, world in rule 110 itself ... something that starts from something else and then looks like it for a bit
13:02:51 <int-e> fungot`: say something?
13:02:51 <fungot`> int-e: i may have figured it out already) was that it
13:03:18 <fungot`> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
13:03:42 <int-e> fungot`: pontificate?
13:03:43 <fungot`> int-e: as i explained earlier, and goes on until 17 april. i am in favour of sensible management and control system needs to be consistency. for example, i see a confirmation of the highly adverse impact of illegal immigration with all its weaknesses and its encouraging signs, i would like to seek your support for my opinion which it voted upon and adopted unanimously. it is still necessary, and regionalisation, which i would a
13:04:19 <fungot`> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl* ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
13:04:28 <fungot`> Selected style: agora (a large selection of Agora rules, both current and historical)
13:04:40 <fungot`> int-e: whenever a player randomly from among all the properties named to the public
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13:12:31 <oerjan> fizzie: these days there should be a ukparl style
13:13:28 <oerjan> (that thing looks more and more like a big game of chicken)
13:15:54 <int-e> are there transcripts of the debates?
13:18:01 <oerjan> i wanted to pun tofu with meatless, but cannot find any confirmation that the latter has the metaphoric meaning i imagine
13:19:31 <oerjan> "The single largest strength of any TOFU-style model is that a human being must initially validate every interaction." "The largest weakness of any TOFU-style model is that a human being must initially validate every interaction,"
13:25:54 <int-e> secure communication between people would be so easy without the people
13:26:25 <oerjan> that would be quotable if it weren't too obvious
13:26:50 <int-e> secure communication between people would be so easy without the human factor
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13:27:55 <int-e> also https://xkcd.com/703/
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15:54:48 <fizzie> int-e: "This Hansard corpus (or collection of texts) contains nearly every speech given in the British Parliament from 1803-2005, and it allows you to search these speeches (including semantically-based searches) in ways that are not possible with any other resource."
15:55:03 <fizzie> Unfortunately, 2005 is a little too far in the past to reflect the... recent events.
15:55:29 <fizzie> Still, could be worth to include. I haven't added any corpora in a while.
15:56:59 <fizzie> Except it looks like the data isn't freely available there, it's just a search engine. Maybe. But perhaps it's available somewhere else.
15:58:15 <fizzie> Good, there's a CC-BY-licensed corpus of "British parliamentary debates from 1998 to 2015" at Ortolang.
15:58:22 <fizzie> Still a bit dated for this particular use though.
15:59:15 <fizzie> I'm sure in a decade or two we'll (a) all look back on this and laugh (b) have it available.
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16:25:59 <fizzie> oerjan: I opened the newest of the files at random, and they're talking about brexit.
16:32:50 <fizzie> Ooh, TheyWorkForYou publishes a rsyncable database that is actually up to date.
16:33:48 <fizzie> When was that damnable referendum again? Maybe I'll train from that day up to present.
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16:57:46 <fizzie> "Finished reading 25663587 words."
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17:19:02 <zzo38> A mahjong rule variant: If someone makes a closed kan while you have riichi, if the one they make kan is the only possible card that could complete your hand, then you win; it counts as tsumo rather than ron.
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18:34:11 <imode> anybody wanna contest that sets are computationally elusive.
18:38:46 <int-e> imode: that sounds a bit too vague for my liking
18:40:51 <imode> core reasoning: there is no convenient way to store a set as a single data structure that is simply unordered and unique. any computational primitives you use must have additional logic added to their operations to preserve uniqueness and a lack of ordering.
18:41:01 <int-e> A precise statement along these lines is that the set of computable (or recursively enumerable) sets of natural numbers is countable, for example, so there are uncountably many other sets that cannot be computed (recursivly enumerated).
18:41:34 <imode> you can use lists with a uniqueness predicate and ignore ordering, but there's an ordering there, and you're just using lists.
18:41:57 <imode> you can use any manner of other discrete structure but ordering is going to be there.
18:43:37 <int-e> on that level, for finite sets, lists and just equality is enough to represent sets... you just won't have a unique representation.
18:44:21 <int-e> Which btw means that finite sets of computable reals are tricky because computable reals don't have a decidable equality.
18:44:26 <imode> kind of what I'm saying. ordering and non-uniqueness kind of eliminates sets as a basic structure.
18:44:27 <int-e> You may call that elusive.
18:44:43 <imode> because ordering and non-uniqueness are fundamental
18:45:03 <int-e> not how set are defined
18:45:23 <imode> a set is defined as a collection of unordered unique elements.
18:45:33 <imode> that may be arbitrarily nested.
18:45:34 <int-e> axiom of extensionality: A = B if x in A if and only if x in B for all x.
18:46:01 <int-e> sets aren't ordered even in set theory
18:46:43 <imode> you aren't getting what I'm saying, so let me be more clear: there is no such thing as an unordered unique collection in computing.
18:46:57 <imode> there are ordered collections with a uniqueness predicate.
18:47:37 <imode> but I can't build a "set structured memory", for instance.
18:47:58 <imode> I can fake it by ignoring order.
18:48:08 <imode> and I can fake it by adding a uniqueness check to every insertion.
18:48:14 <int-e> meh it's really a matter of defining an interface for your data structure
18:48:49 <int-e> basically all data structures have extraneous information. For example, two equal big integers may have different addresses.
18:50:37 <int-e> So I'd disagree. Working with quotients (representations modulo some congruence relation) is everywhere in programming, and while it's possible to peek inside and destroy the illusion, it's generally not useful.
18:50:59 <imode> assume for a moment that you wanted to build a "computational foundation for mathematics", which basically means taking a model of computation and trying to define a bunch of useful math within it. we already have ZFC, so why not try modeling ZFC within that model of computation so the operations line up.
18:51:01 <int-e> So as long as we have equality tests for the elements, we can represent finite sets, no issue at all.
18:51:18 <imode> much like we tried almost a century ago.
18:51:57 <imode> there is no model of computation that exists that can define/formulate sets without that illusion _unless_ sets are taken as a computational primitive.
18:51:59 <imode> much like in SETL.
18:53:14 <imode> my question is is the statement above true, noting that the only reason it can be considered true is that every model of computation not presupposing unordered unique collections admits only ordered non-unique collections.
18:53:22 <int-e> imode: meh, I've done some refinement in Isabelle/HOL. For finite sets, typically one refines to lists there are two choices. a) equality only, refining to lists with unique elements. Whenever one folds (iterates) over a set, one has to use an associative, commutative operation. b) refine to ordered lists, which solve the unique representation problem.
18:53:29 <int-e> but a) is a perfectly viable approach.
18:54:18 <int-e> c) is a proper container like red-black-trees, which refine ordered lists and do away with unique representations again.
18:55:17 <imode> right. but that's kind of my point: you always have to suppose, to work properly, an ordered, non-unique collection in order to derive unordered unique collections.
18:55:35 <int-e> yes, but we're dealing with it.
18:56:02 <int-e> and as I said, the unordered view on a list is actually viable.
18:56:09 <imode> if mathematics is to be considered algorithmic, this is a non-zero unit cost to dealing with sets. enumeration, folding, any operation really incurs an extra step compared to starting with ordered collections.
18:56:25 <int-e> it's uncommon because usually orders are easy to define and give significant performance benefits.
18:56:49 <imode> an additional question would be: what would the "list" or "tree" equivalent of ZFC be.
18:57:02 <imode> hell I'll take non-well founded theories.
18:59:22 <imode> I get that you can "deal with it", but it's just a philosophical take.
18:59:41 <int-e> Embedding data types into sets tends to be tedious. You can carve out lists from partial functions from naturals to your element type, but that's rather ad hoc. In Isabelle/HOL there's some heavy machinery reasoning about cardinals that does that for a large class of least fixed points of various functors (and a bit more to allow codata).
18:59:43 <imode> what's more "fundamental" in structuring something? does structure imply some order?
19:01:12 <int-e> And that may be considered cheating at the foundations because Isabelle/HOL isn't ZFC, it's a Hindley-Milner typed set theory.
19:02:23 <int-e> But in any case, you can embed data type constructions into ZFC. You can also take the attitude that since you can embed Turing Machines into ZFC, and those cover everything computable, you don't need to bother with programming language types at all.
19:02:53 * int-e wonders where this is going...
19:03:16 <b_jonas> int-e: sure, but in theory you could mechanically translate that Hindley-Milner stuff to an underlying untyped representation, right?
19:03:37 <b_jonas> the type system is certainly useful, to avoid mistakes, but it's not some theoretical problem I think
19:03:42 <b_jonas> I don't think it counts as cheating
19:03:49 <int-e> But I think the main disagreement is still that I'm saying that quotients are everywhere and so standard that they are hardly worth discussing, and imode disagrees.
19:04:08 <imode> I parse your agument int-e as "it doesn't matter".
19:05:13 <int-e> imode: A point I haven't made: quotients are even present in mathematics, everywhere. Constructing rationals from integers, constructing reals from rationals... in the typical approaches, you have some representation of your new object, but it's not unique, so you take a quotiont.
19:05:31 <imode> not sure what quotient means in this context.
19:07:14 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quotient_algebra
19:07:48 <imode> I think we have to consider the different properties of the things we build the "primitives" of math out of, and if math is to be taken as algorithmic (not necessarily turing computable, but algorithmic), then the properties of those things need to be neccessarily algorithmic as well.
19:08:50 <imode> which just made me think about some foundational stuff like ZF and ZFC.
19:09:12 <int-e> 1/3 is a representation of a rational number; it can also be represented as (-1)/(-3), 2/6, (-2)/(-6), ...
19:09:16 <imode> like "can you represent sets computationally", "how would you represent sets in arbitrary models of computation".
19:10:08 <imode> so I guess I'm just searching for a counterexample. like, what model of computation doesn't presuppose sets and doesn't have that illusion. where are the models where we don't have to "deal with it" or spend some time or space complexity.
19:10:47 <b_jonas> I don't think that sets are fundamental in the outside sense, as in, that we use ZFC in praticular as the standard axiom system is more or less an accident of history, and we could use many equivalent systems with data structures other than sets.
19:10:50 <int-e> so when defining Q, a common approach is to first look at pairs (a, b) with b != 0 (and value a/b), and then say that a/b = c/d if a*d = b*c, which defines a congruence relation (it's an equivalence relation which is compatible with addition and multiplication), and then take the quotient modulo that congruence relation.
19:11:05 <imode> right, and that presupposes ordered pairs.
19:11:26 <int-e> And then for computing with elements of Q, we routinely go back to representatives a/b, rather than writing out complete congruence classes.
19:11:27 <b_jonas> But I also don't think there's anything wrong with sets. They're simple and convenient enough, not very artificial, so this is a good choice.
19:12:21 <b_jonas> And yes, we can usually use representatives, but it's not essential that we can use them, and in some general contexts a choice of representative elements need not exist.
19:12:21 <imode> well, I think that ordered collections are natural from a philosophical standpoint. show me something without order, and I'll show you that it's not a preferred order, but it _is_ an order.
19:12:30 <imode> algorithmically I take that stance as well.
19:12:36 <b_jonas> Taking the whole equivalence class usually works as a fallback.
19:13:19 <b_jonas> It gets ugly when that equivalence class is not a set, because it makes proofs more complicated to write, but there's no real theoretical difficulty.
19:13:24 <int-e> imode: so that's an example of a quotient, which basically exhibits the same phenomenon you're worrying about for sets: the same rational number has several representations. A difference is that we have decided which representative is canonical, for every rational number (a/b with b > 0 and a and b coprime... but you can actually work with rational numbers without ever doing that).
19:14:48 <imode> that's actually pretty interesting. I actually wonder if there might be some foundation in something like a nondeterministic TM which enumerates a given set.
19:15:16 <imode> i.e "here's a bunch of potential orderings, pick the one you want, or pick at random."
19:15:51 <imode> some algorithm that enumerates/generates a set but does not presuppose a given order.
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19:21:12 <imode> so that means you'd need to presuppose nondeterminism.. hm.
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19:22:33 <int-e> imode: I'm sorry, I should not have been quite so dismissive. The issue you're describing is real. It's just that it's well-known and quite universal, we deal with it all the time, when programming, and also in mathematics itself.
19:23:28 <imode> it's alright! just trying to reconcile it with my personal sense of aesthetics. I have a programming environment that I'm building that already has a language, so I'm considering how I'd approach some foundations of that language.
19:23:46 <int-e> "yes, the program said [42,1,666,23], but let's just pretend that the order has no significance, because we know it's printing a set."
19:23:53 <oerjan> . o O ( what's the categorical definition of non-canonicity )
19:24:09 <int-e> oerjan: dym canonical?
19:25:08 <imode> the interplay between deterministic computation and nondeterministic computation leads you going in circles. deterministic MoCs can simulate nondeterministic MoCs by enumerating all branches, while nondeterministic MoCs take deterministic MoCs as special cases.
19:27:13 <oerjan> . o O ( also any set that contains both 42 and 666 is trying too hard )
19:27:39 <imode> so if we say that you need a nondeterministic MoC to "properly" represent unordered, unique collections.. well, there's that problem of uniqueness.
19:28:09 <imode> nondeterminism gets you unordered collections, but you still have a non-zero algorithmic cost to determine uniqueness.
19:28:36 <imode> as in, "I need to check my with my collection every time I do something that may endanger the fact that the elements are unique."
19:29:00 <imode> that may give some credence towards multisets.
19:29:32 <oerjan> . o O ( snowflake-based computing )
19:30:41 <int-e> quantum sorting: shuffle your list based on the outcome of reading a qubit; destroy the universe if the list is not sorted.
19:31:36 <oerjan> destroying the universe is not in BQP hth
19:31:46 <int-e> this is, of course, a slightly more radical version of quantum suicide.
19:32:05 <int-e> (except for solipsists)
19:35:00 <int-e> . o O ( noone pointed out that I better use at least ceil(log_2(n!)) qubits )
19:45:39 <imode> so multisets may actually be a perfectly sound foundation. they only require a lack of ordering.
19:47:17 <b_jonas> nah, multisets are useless
19:50:09 <int-e> b_jonas: I have plenty of uses for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiset_ordering
19:52:41 <imode> so ordered, non-unique: lists/trees, etc. unordered, non-unique: multisets. ordered, unique: ???. unordered, unique: sets.
19:55:02 <int-e> (though it may be kind of telling that both definitions come from term rewriting people (though Oppen may have been (or is?) more of a first-order theorem proving person))
19:57:07 <imode> I guess I'm also biased towards ordered collections as a basis as well because in our universe, there always exists a "canonical ordering" for at least one thing.
19:57:31 <imode> time kinda ensures that.
19:59:30 <imode> like I can say "I don't have an ordering for this", but to do anything, you need an ordering.
20:00:24 <imode> you can construct an ordering, just like you can construct an ordered pair from sets.
20:06:53 <imode> be back soon. ttyl. o/
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20:30:42 <fizzie> From training logs: "New: communist-manufactured pen"
20:31:13 <fizzie> "As [Gorbachev] went to sign into effect the dissolution of the Soviet Union, his communist-manufactured pen did not work, and he had to borrow a working pen from the CNN camera crew who were filming the event."
20:31:21 <b_jonas> fizzie: that's like the urban legand about the million dollar pen that can write in a zero-gravity environment?
20:32:20 <fizzie> "Alongside St John Paul II, President Reagan and our own Margaret Thatcher, we were instrumental in resisting totalitarianism and inspiring the captive peoples of Europe to stand up against their communist overlords. At the same time, the Leader of the Opposition and the shadow Home Secretary were going on motorbike tours of East Germany."
20:33:06 <fizzie> (Unfortunately the models I've gotten out of this so far haven't sounded very good.)
20:33:21 <b_jonas> are you training fungot or some new thing?
20:33:21 <fungot`> b_jonas: particular currency. each office, the assessor in the scorekeepor's announcement, that is not prohibited or regulated by a
20:33:40 <fizzie> Training a complementary "ukparl" style for fungot, yes.
20:33:40 <fungot`> fizzie: ( -o) when, during agora's birthday is defined in the number of rules is decided by the
20:34:10 <b_jonas> do you want to train a bibul style?
20:35:38 <fizzie> I've tried some bible variants, I don't think I put any online.
20:37:07 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bibul: not found
20:37:21 <b_jonas> wasn't there someting in hackego for that?
20:45:38 -!- fungot` has changed nick to fungot.
20:45:39 <int-e> fungot`: can you say something about resilience?
20:45:40 <fungot> int-e: srfi-67 seems to be working
20:45:52 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
20:45:54 <fungot> Selected style: ukparl (UK Parliament debates from brexit referendum to late 2018)
20:46:02 <fizzie> fungot: How about that brexit then?
20:46:02 <fungot> fizzie: and of any information capable of being viewed as important, the groceries code statutory? under the current uk system at the same in the hon. and learned friend the member for nottingham north ( mr allen) and the hon. and learned friend the member for west dorset, to many colleagues, the schools.
20:46:24 <fizzie> Surprisingly, there are other topics.
20:46:37 <fungot> int-e: that, of the fnord fr fnord, or kfw, sits, that what the hon. member, one surveyor, and my fnord, the hon. and learned friend, in the sense of a government lurching from one crisis to another: the nuclear deal, the billions to the uk over the us, the arab world, and the work of the house.
20:48:00 <b_jonas> the hon. and learned friend the member fungot makes more meaningful statements than some hon. and learn friend members of the parliament
20:48:00 <fungot> b_jonas: the european union
20:48:02 <int-e> (but not lucky enough to try that again)
20:48:04 <fizzie> The Perl script I have can take a pre-set initial context, which is nice if you'd like fungot to make a statement on a particular topic.
20:48:04 <fungot> fizzie: is the hon. member of this house, including any concerns. from the time,
20:48:27 <fizzie> "the challenge for brexit is a wee step behind, as i very much want that unintended consequence?"
20:48:57 <int-e> but a tad too honest, I'd say
20:49:08 <fungot> int-e: my hon. and learned friend, particularly for the very youngest. i predict, and to those of the many fnord journalists, of parliamentarians.
20:49:36 <int-e> fungot: seriously, no brexit at all?
20:49:37 <fungot> int-e: i was a member, for the opportunity to get
20:50:00 <b_jonas> fungot: will you be more successful than Theresa May in convincing Ireland to quit the EU?
20:50:00 <fungot> b_jonas: at the time, given the minister a very specific issue, and that over 500 other firms, the third party, the sale of fnord to fnord alone, and would be the same government that schools, and sports organisations
20:50:03 <int-e> fungot: well I suppose there are other topics
20:50:03 <fungot> int-e: to fnord part of the uk, through the media, the radio, the importance of an independent uk trade policy. it is the time for the government to continuing the discussion with the fnord stakeholders.
20:50:30 <b_jonas> that is right, hon. and learned friend
20:50:42 <int-e> fizzie: is there a way for you to check whether "brexit" made it into the word list?
20:52:35 <fizzie> int-e: It must've been, otherwise the script for that brexit statement would've complained.
20:53:19 <int-e> ah, sorry. I missed the point of that quote.
20:53:20 <fizzie> On the sorted unigram list, it's somewhere around rank 240, between "doing" and "home".
20:56:09 <fizzie> Top 500 most common tokens: https://zem.fi/tmp/top500.txt
20:56:21 <b_jonas> what is the opinion of my hon. and learened friedn fungot ofabout brexit?
20:56:21 <fungot> b_jonas: in that case, the hon. member, yet that is the only data that includes additional high-value investment, specifically the right point
20:58:06 <int-e> fizzie: so there are more closing parentheses than opening parentheses? fun....
20:58:39 <b_jonas> int-e: sure. unmatched opening parenthesis aren't very useful, but unmatched closing parenthesis can be used like
20:59:27 <b_jonas> there's some C preprocessor magic that uses lists separated by closing parenthesis anyway
21:00:07 <int-e> b_jonas: and how does that connect with transcripts from the UK parliament?
21:00:45 <fizzie> int-e: There might be some preprocessing issues there.
21:01:58 <fizzie> Just counting '(' and ')' in the source XML files, there are 78166 (s and 78170 )s.
21:02:01 <int-e> hmm, number one: 324 -3.60044 1 -0.601376
21:02:28 <int-e> well that seems close enough :)
21:02:48 <fizzie> Some of those parentheses may have gotten attached to words, I think there's some known issues about consecutive punctuation.
21:03:04 <int-e> unlikely that "their" and "who" are both squeezed between these two numbers.
21:03:39 <b_jonas> we should start addressing people on esoteric "my hon. and learned friend"
21:03:51 <int-e> wow, "church" didn't make the list
21:04:06 <HackEso> b_jonas: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
21:04:22 <int-e> b_jonas: there's a chance for you to do that :P
21:06:42 <int-e> but it sounds condescending to me... so if I get a vote on this I'm against it.
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21:25:31 <oerjan> fungot: so what you're saying is that for those two years, the hon. friends carefully avoided discussing the mess?
21:25:31 <fungot> oerjan: is the hon. member of this house, and the pay of the chief executive, but consequently her working years shows the success, or seeking to transfer the european law,
21:26:45 <oerjan> i have this feeling there may be a bit heavy line breaking
21:28:30 <Luciole> is this based on transcriptions from the house of commons?
21:28:35 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl* youtube
21:29:04 <fungot> Selected style: ukparl (UK Parliament debates from brexit referendum to late 2018)
21:29:58 <int-e> good question, hmm, I'd hope that this includes both houses?
21:30:41 <Luciole> but the house of commons is the one with the more lively discussions I think
21:30:53 <Luciole> fungot: so how do you feel about a no-deal brexit
21:30:53 <fungot> Luciole: government should agree to and put to the people in a vote. he was never told he is pursuing his interest, to the rightful role
21:31:47 <int-e> Luciole: http://parser.theyworkforyou.com/hansard.html seems to be what fizzie used, and it mentions both houses.
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21:33:55 <b_jonas> fungot: yeah, my hon. and learned friend, that part is easy, but what shall the question of the vote be? depending on the question, we'll get entirely complimentary outcomes
21:33:55 <fungot> b_jonas: i, for one, and i have to be frank, the last 12 years. the canadian fnord food, given the secretary of fnord members, and to our way of life,
21:35:04 <b_jonas> well, at least you are frank, my hon. and learned friend
21:35:23 <b_jonas> int-e: do you also object against calling fungot my hon. and learned friend?
21:35:23 <fungot> b_jonas: this was the first time, the hon. member. a damaged and disrupted fnord by lone fathers, and should try to ensure, and to all the people.
21:35:39 <b_jonas> yes. it's always the first time. good excuse.
21:35:45 <b_jonas> you go scott free just this one time.
21:36:27 <int-e> b_jonas: I don't mind addressing fungot in a condescending way
21:36:27 <fungot> int-e: there is, to a degree, the nursing and midwifery council, the coroners and justice act 2009
21:36:36 <int-e> b_jonas: I think it has done quite enough to deserve it ;)
21:37:04 <fungot> int-e: we, of course, of the north-east. it is my great pleasure to have the opportunity.
21:37:05 <HackEso> fungot is our beloved channel mascot and voice of reason.
21:40:54 <fizzie> Luciole: It's from Commons, I think.
21:41:32 <fizzie> http://parser.theyworkforyou.com/hansard.html "Debates (Commons), Debates (Lords), Westminster Hall"
21:42:30 <fizzie> I trained on the scrapedxml/debates/debates*.xml files, from 2016 June to present day.
21:43:08 <b_jonas> oh no! I think she's a witch!
21:43:34 <fizzie> I think that's "Commons main chamber debates" only.
21:46:43 <fizzie> I think for Lords I would've needed to look in the lordspages/daylord*.xml files.
21:50:26 <fizzie> oerjan: By the way, the lines ending in a comma are likely because the transcripts put all quotes in their own separate <p> element.
21:50:34 <fizzie> <p pid="c371.1/16">Hyde also said that as a housing provider, it needed to</p>
21:50:37 <fizzie> <p pid="c371.1/17" class="indent" pwmotiontext="yes">“make efficient use of its income to ensure we are able to prioritise building more homes to help address the housing crisis”,</p>
21:50:41 <fizzie> <p pid="c371.1/18">which meant it had to make difficult choices about what additional services it continued to fund and what it stopped.</p>
21:51:28 <fizzie> Other than that treatment of quotes, the <p> element seemed like a logical unit for fungotting. The full <speech> elements (which is whenever the speaker changes) are pretty long.
21:51:28 <fungot> fizzie: as a new member, and i can only conclude, therefore, the government have
22:07:23 -!- LKoen has joined.
22:10:32 <int-e> hmm, I wish DeepMind would stop saying things like "AlphaZero learned Chess in 9 hours"... and rather say "Alpha Zero learned chess using 20MWh of electricity"
22:11:42 <int-e> (not sure what the real number is, but it should be in that ballpark)
22:12:01 <LKoen> (then arranged for every reader to repeat it a billion times)
22:12:16 <zzo38> I try to figure out how to best implement the batch notification in my Netsubscribe implementation. I thought to use a SQL table to keep track of what to do (so that if it fails once, you can try again later, by remembering where you left off)
22:12:38 -!- imode has joined.
22:12:38 <int-e> LKoen: they have two whitepapers stating this and a number of press releases... so the number is larger than one.
22:13:17 <zzo38> Do you have some ideas?
22:13:50 <zzo38> I am not sure exactly what to put in this table; I tried to figure out but then decided it might not do and try to think of something else. Or is there a better way?
22:14:07 <oerjan> <b_jonas> oh no! I think she's a witch! <-- wat
22:16:58 <int-e> fun related number: The human brain consumes about 175kWh a year (assuming 20W, which estimate is backed by the Internet (tm)).
22:20:19 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite).
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22:22:02 <b_jonas> oerjan: well, she floats on water
22:22:13 <b_jonas> I don't want to start quoting Monty Python
22:22:17 <b_jonas> that rarely leads to anything good
22:23:00 <b_jonas> I'm actually just listening to Hansel und Gretel, the opera, and it's about witches
22:25:07 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
22:32:02 <int-e> . o O ( grand surprise )
22:32:18 <int-e> though, actually, plural?
22:33:14 <b_jonas> my hon. and learned friend fungot, Ki tett itt csontból, húsból törvényt?
22:33:15 <fungot> b_jonas: on the hon. and learned friend the member for manchester, gorton, and also, i have to some of the people i have been seeing the build-up. seven of the new state pension, the member keeps it uppermost in the prime of our life, and the government and the government of the uk that the government avoid the failings of the uk energy. more have come to the house to do the same is not the will, respect the 62% who were to ben
22:33:18 <int-e> of course there's the movie... Hansel & Gretel: Witch Hunters
22:35:31 <b_jonas> I see you like the government a lot
22:44:56 <b_jonas> my hon. and learned friend fungot, Kopasszák le fejüket a hegyek, / s tegyék lábadhoz most nyírt erdeik? / Folyását a folyó fordítsa meg? / Borítsa búza vadon vidékeid?
22:44:56 <fungot> b_jonas: a new one, might feel that the title, the new uk government funding, the challenge, and the public,
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00:35:10 <zzo38> I have started with the new subscription schema in netsubsc; so far there is a SUBSCRIBERS table and a SUBSCRIBE_USERS table. Later probably should be added BATCH and NOTIFIED tables. What are you thinking of this?
00:36:27 <zzo38> I have made a tag !mtgidea@zzo38computer.org for ideas of new Magic: the Gathering cards and variants; once subscriptions are implemented then I might post messages using that. If you are interested, you can subscribe too
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01:15:35 <esowiki> [[Talk:???]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58739&oldid=43890 * Only Onion * (+368)
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04:15:26 <zzo38> Do you like my specification of "xpMC" chunk of PNG files? http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/xpMC That gives you the ability of XPM palettes in PNG files too.
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05:13:09 <esowiki> [[High Rise]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58740&oldid=58722 * Ais523 * (+371) /* High Rise languages */ current line of thought: we may be able to avoid interleaving in counter machine implementations when using a geometric sequence + a constant offset
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09:13:41 <Taneb> This textbook has an exercise that is essentially "Prove Fractran turing complete"
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09:21:36 <Taneb> (the textbook is Quantum Computation and Quantum Information by Nielsen and Chuang, and it mentions Fractran by name)
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16:38:40 <oerjan> my honourable friend fungot, are you a lawyer or a member of the privy council?
16:38:40 <fungot> oerjan: the hon. and learned friend the member for new forest east, gedling, and of many others, to be a shortfall of the ad-hoc way
16:43:37 <b_jonas> wow, a giant eyeball. http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/
16:43:45 <b_jonas> `bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/
16:43:46 <HackEso> bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/: b_jonas
16:43:59 <b_jonas> `bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20181215.html
16:44:00 <HackEso> bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20181215.html: b_jonas
16:44:11 <b_jonas> oerjan: it's "my hon. and learned friend"
16:44:31 <b_jonas> ah yes, my hon. and learned friend fungot has just showed you that
16:44:31 <fungot> b_jonas: hon. and hon. and right hon. friends the member for birmingham, yardley, i do, i have a very high number, albeit the most support. labour wishes these opportunities, the countries that we have been to the house of the many hon. government and the board, that the deadline, that only in the la fnord, which commemorates the contribution to the debate,
16:44:44 <oerjan> my right honourable, gallant, learned and reverent friend fungot, what is your correct addressing style?
16:44:44 <fungot> oerjan: our other priority homeless the local services that we have as a member of the eu,
16:50:58 <oerjan> b_jonas: it's a bit more complicated http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/82149.stm
17:01:00 <b_jonas> oerjan: http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/1330.html
17:07:19 <oerjan> windows wants a reboot for the third time this month...
17:08:10 <b_jonas> oerjan: hmm, that is informative. but how do you address the whole chamber, such as at the start of a speech?
17:09:11 <oerjan> b_jonas: i dunno, ask fizzie to include some lord speeches hth
17:09:26 <b_jonas> The addressing are simpler in Hungary because the aristocratic titles are generally no longer used
17:09:33 <oerjan> to avoid being caught out by this, i carefully set my "activity period" to cover all the hours i'm awake, which is somewhat awkward with an unstable sleeping rhythm.
17:12:10 <oerjan> in norway, aristocracy was abolished back in the 19th century
17:12:30 <b_jonas> Also since 1989, people usually no longer call each other their comrades or their tovariŝ
17:15:16 <b_jonas> but it is true that politicians do use very different styles when they speak in the parliament versus amongst their party. that becomes very obvious if you hear the speeches of Mr Orbán in both cases
17:17:38 <b_jonas> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVnwfwXnNiQ says that "you can only physically push one of the direction buttons at a time" on the NES controller
17:17:49 <b_jonas> I think you can push two diagonally
17:18:35 <b_jonas> but it's strange that he says that, because obviously he's played the NES a lot and has a controller right in his hand to test
17:22:03 <b_jonas> nah, it's only five volts and not much current
17:22:13 <b_jonas> he didn't disassemble the CRT in that video
17:49:29 <b_jonas> Although he does explain in one video how Commodore 64 power units have an annoying bug where sometimes they start to supply much higher voltage to the motherboard than usual, and that can fry multiple chips on the board before you notice that anything is wrong.
17:58:52 <fizzie> b_jonas: "My Lords, --" is how they always seem to start.
17:59:15 <fizzie> And it's "the noble Lord" when referring to the previous speaker.
18:00:03 <fizzie> Sometimes "my noble friend".
18:02:04 <fizzie> The Commons speeches don't seem to have any formulaic start, at least these days.
18:06:40 <b_jonas> I think in the parliament of Hungary, the formulaic start is or used to be "Tisztelt ház, tisztelt elnök úr, tisztelt miniszterek!" but that could have changed since
18:16:09 <b_jonas> obviously I could check, since most of the parliament stuff is public and available on the internet, but I don't much care
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18:37:33 <imode> so I found a paper that actually diagrams a replacement for set theory using lists.
18:37:47 <imode> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/231884964_An_axiomatic_theory_of_well-orderings
18:38:35 <imode> it pretty much phrases everything I've said here and other places, so I'm a happy lad. the results are nice in that you still have the same expressive power as ZFC but you get a lot of things for free.
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19:20:12 <b_jonas> imode: does it give draft proofs for that, as in, implementing ZFC from that theory and backwards?
19:20:46 <imode> not sure if I can link any sci-hub stuff here but it's in there.
19:21:33 <imode> found it and read it at like 2 AM this morning on my phone lmao.
19:22:29 <b_jonas> good to know that someone worked the details out
19:22:52 <imode> I'm quite happy with it, as I had a lot of the conclusions/work in that paper worked out in a notefile.
19:23:00 <imode> now all I need is a logic!
19:24:02 <b_jonas> I'd like to hear a bit more details. does that book tell about an implementation of the real numbers based on that system?
19:24:22 <b_jonas> and if so, is it the equivalence classes of cauchy sequences of reals?
19:26:27 <b_jonas> imode: why couldn't you link here?
19:27:15 <imode> sci-hub is a method for circumventing paywalls regarding journals, I don't know if that's covered under piracy (I assume it is).
19:27:26 <imode> so I'm playing it safe.
19:27:30 <imode> the paper is behind a paywall.
19:27:32 <b_jonas> imode: yes, but... oh whatever you want
19:27:43 <imode> https://sci-hub.tw/10.1017/S1755020310000390
19:27:47 <b_jonas> anyway, I don't want to read this book now
19:27:52 <b_jonas> so I'm asking you since you've already read it
19:28:51 <imode> they don't cover the reals. their approach is showing an axiom mapping from ZFC to their theory.
19:29:17 <b_jonas> do they at least cover natural numbers?
19:30:15 <imode> seems to be not. they get all the way up through ordered pairs, though. nats are trivially constructable early on in the paper.
19:30:45 <imode> the reasoning path is pretty much "all this stuff is trivially derivable, we're giving justifications for the axioms and showing how you can replace your's with these and get the same results for the hard stuff."
19:31:26 <b_jonas> but it'd be more interesting if they also shown that some things get simpler that way
19:31:37 <b_jonas> while some other things may get uglier of course
20:08:18 <esowiki> [[User:DMC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58741&oldid=58512 * DMC * (+6)
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21:47:11 <zzo38> Why the ace of money doesn't resembles money it looks like a bird with two heads?
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21:59:35 <b_jonas> Do you mean the ace of coins?
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22:16:54 <b_jonas> zzo38: well, a lot of coins have a bird on it, and coins in Austria or Germany may even have a two-headed Imperial bird that's supposed to be an eagle
22:17:03 <b_jonas> although it doesn't always look like an eagle
22:17:39 <b_jonas> we have, I think, two common and one rare coin wity a bird on it right now in Hungary, though none of them are two headed
22:18:06 <b_jonas> and then there's all the overused Athena/Athene/owl symbolism everywhere
22:18:30 <b_jonas> too many things are named of Athena, people should really start to use different mythological names
22:22:26 <zzo38> Yes, you can perhaps select different pantheons
22:22:47 <b_jonas> or just different figures from Greek and Roman mythology if you want
22:22:56 <zzo38> Yes, you can do that too
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23:38:53 <imode> seems to me that anything that involves graph-based computing pretty much boils down to two methods of graph rewriting: traversals and pattern matching.
23:42:18 <b_jonas> what I'd like to see is some sort of cellular automaton thingy that is on a "grid" background that's in the Euc plane and is isometric if you look at it from far enough
23:44:11 <b_jonas> perhaps you could start from a Voronoi thingy like http://math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/randvoronoi.html and then make it more event or something
23:45:27 <b_jonas> or maybe one of those random disk packing things with relaxation where they end up having lots of uneven grid parts
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00:00:37 <b_jonas> whatever is its short invocation
00:04:02 <imode> what's the graph analogue of the lambda calculus, I wonder. I know what it means to apply a term tree to another term tree (like function application), but I don't know of something like that for arbitrary graphs.
00:09:33 <imode> reason I'm wondering is because I'm looking for a model of computation that closely resembles some "natural" form of knowledge, and graphs are able to represent knowledge pretty easily via the semantic network concept.
00:17:15 <imode> though I'm open to other forms of knowledge representation... graphs get weird.
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01:03:21 <imode> maybe graph grammars will point me in the right direction..
01:07:53 <imode> there's an internal struggle in me. on the one hand, I want a graph-based model of computation that features no variables that I can use to encode knowledge and model stuff. on the other hand, I acknowledge that anything that looks like it will probably look like some variant of combinatory logic.
01:09:17 <b_jonas> imode: you do know about Eodermdrone. although that does contain variables, namely captures
01:11:24 <imode> yeah... I thought "well, what if we could take graphs and "apply them" to other graphs to derive new graphs according to some rules." but that'd just lead to combinators, with your "base graph" and the method of combining two graphs being two combinators, and any given graph is just a different set of applications.
01:13:41 <imode> like it'd be nice to take, for example, some subgraphs encoding facts, and another subgraph encoding some set of derivation rules, mash 'em together and get a set of derived facts.
01:13:55 <imode> but the actual structure of those applications is combinatoric.
01:30:20 <imode> perhaps I have to accept that everything reduces to some combinator set.
01:52:54 <imode> curry was a genius.
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03:22:48 <imode> Problem: Does a class of graph grammars exist such that each grammar does not admit free or bound variables on either the Left-Hand Side or Right-Hand Side and is also Turing Complete?
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04:26:45 <esowiki> [[Your Pong May Minsky]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58742&oldid=55875 * Chris Pressey * (-23) No one has complained, which means the proof must be okay, that's how it works right?
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04:45:25 <esowiki> [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58743&oldid=55865 * Chris Pressey * (+814) Sketch of computable real making sub-TC language into TC
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05:09:45 <lambdabot> LOWI 170450Z VRB01KT 9999 FEW007 BKN200 M04/M05 Q1018 R08/19//95 NOSIG
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09:24:01 <salpynx> imode: re. graph grammers, I was wondering if L-systems are applicable to your search? I was recently trying to find out the relationship between Lsystems and cellular automata, and there are numerous papers not readily readable on the subject, I couldn't find a straight answer. I think they can be used to implement automata rules
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09:25:16 <salpynx> searching just now how L-systems relate to graphs I found this interesting book chapter of L-systems, graphs, and Super Mario Bros level design: http://pcgbook.com/wp-content/uploads/chapter05.pdf
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12:01:03 <esowiki> [[Hieroglyphic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58744&oldid=46401 * Salpynx * (+849) format command list
12:11:39 <esowiki> [[Hieroglyphic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58745&oldid=58744 * Salpynx * (+152) attempt to clarify commands based on example usage
12:26:50 <esowiki> [[Your Pong May Minsky]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58746&oldid=58742 * Chris Pressey * (+18)
12:28:51 <esowiki> [[Hieroglyphic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58747&oldid=58745 * Salpynx * (+0) /* Syntax */ correct diacritic
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16:50:53 <esowiki> [[Talk:Your Pong May Minsky]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58748&oldid=55880 * Chris Pressey * (+519) /* Continuous waterfalls */
17:04:22 <esowiki> [[Talk:Your Pong May Minsky]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58749&oldid=58748 * Chris Pressey * (+1) /* Continuous waterfalls */
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19:19:24 <HackEso> olist 1149: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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20:57:31 <oren> makefile:84: *** unterminated variable reference. Stop.
20:58:47 <oren> I hate how makefile syntax and bash syntax interact in unhelpful ways
20:59:33 <oren> does make really need to use $ for its variable sigil?
21:00:08 <oren> if make used say : or something then there would be no issue
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23:42:51 <oren> #!/usr/bin/perl -CS
23:42:52 <oren> print chr(0x2571+int(rand(2))) while 1;
23:51:57 <imode> is that the maze drawer.
23:57:07 <esowiki> [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58750&oldid=58743 * Ais523 * (+945) /* Waterclocks over the reals */ r to Chris Pressey: a concrete example of a language with this property
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23:58:20 <esowiki> [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58751&oldid=58750 * Ais523 * (+110) clarify where my reply is going, rather than dumping a bunch of statements with no context
00:10:10 <b_jonas> no, my hon. and learned friend fungot, I expect you to die
00:10:10 <fungot> b_jonas: it is on that that the government have, the procedure is the same.
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01:24:23 <zzo38> Now I implemented the + and - requests of Netsubscribe at least, although it isn't so useful because notifications are not yet implemented. Do you like this?
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03:10:15 <imode> I'm totally sold on combinators. Curry's work, Backus' FP, Iverson's APL and J.. they're all tied together by algebra, each language forming an algebra of programs.
03:11:24 <zzo38> Does quantum entanglement that joins stuff being extending backward in time from the point of view of both experimenters? To me it would seem like that, rather than affecting the other one "instantly", like they say it is.
03:12:01 <imode> https://www.quora.com/Does-Bohmian-mechanics-explain-entanglement
03:17:49 <zzo38> It looks like difference to what I mentioned.
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08:59:47 <zzo38> What help in what program?
09:01:11 <amokavarshan> zzo38, i solved it before you asked but anyway thanks for asking
09:05:28 <amokavarshan> http://dpaste.com/1P7FNJT ; why a space is need before %c in scanf to get the program work
09:06:59 <zzo38> Perhaps because of a line break after each line that you have to consume.
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09:47:07 <esowiki> [[Analog Synth]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58752 * Salpynx * (+4671) information density joke language with multi-interpreter
09:48:18 <esowiki> [[Analog Synth]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58753&oldid=58752 * Salpynx * (-5)
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12:05:30 <esowiki> [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58754&oldid=58751 * Chris Pressey * (+1036) /* Waterclocks over the reals */
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19:44:18 <b_jonas> `ehlist http://eheroes.smackjeeves.com/comics/2711313/look-out-below/
19:44:19 <HackEso> ehlist http://eheroes.smackjeeves.com/comics/2711313/look-out-below/: b_jonas
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20:11:43 <oren> https://i.redd.it/nx4xu1y9r0521.jpg
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20:42:31 <imode> are there any resources out there on building cyclic graphs from collections of trees?
20:44:09 <imode> haskell might have something to say about that.
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21:05:29 <salpynx> Based on the recent Waterfall Model language activity, I have thought up a "serious" and hopefully interesting variant stemming from the silly title variation "Your Mince may Pong" (punning on "Your Pong May Minsky", clever n-dimensional bouncing ball equivalent).
21:05:46 <salpynx> It is a biological E-Coli style bacterial simulation of the Waterfall mechanics. Instead of Waterclocks, there are n bacterial strains that have a maximum population density in their environment. Once the maximum density is reached, a strain's growth rate halts due to passive competitive pressures.
21:06:01 <salpynx> The population becomes stressed, and this triggers a specialized antibiotic metabolites ("interference competition mode") which is a cocktail of antibiotic substances that different strains have differing weaknesses to. The populations of all strains reduce by differing amounts, and then further growth can occur.
21:06:43 <salpynx> I believe this is equivalent to the Waterfall Model mechanics.
21:07:32 <oren> how would one go about generating a maze with / and \ walls such that there is a start point at the top and an end at the bottom, no points are disconnected from the start and end points, and the route from the start to the end is not obvious
21:10:41 <salpynx> Initially I conceived the "interference competition mode" to reduce the populations being triggered suddenly, but I wonder if the antibiotic substances could be released continuously and change growth rates - would that be equivalent, or does the "water top up" need to be sudden and discreet?
21:17:48 <salpynx> oren: using whatever algorithm http://www.mazegenerator.net/ uses for a square maze, and rotate by 45°? Maybe I'm missing something, but the angled walls don't change the problem. You'll just end up with a diamond shaped maze, which I think is what you are specifying?
21:29:58 <salpynx> neat resource: http://www.astrolog.org/labyrnth/algrithm.htm#perfect via wiki page on " Maze generation algorithm"
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22:36:22 <b_jonas> `bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/
22:36:23 <HackEso> bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/: b_jonas
22:36:47 <b_jonas> `bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20181218.html
22:36:47 <HackEso> bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20181218.html: b_jonas
22:37:52 <b_jonas> imode: building cyclic graphs from collections of trees => um, I think there was some crazy conjecture, with special cases proved, about getting complete digraphs as disjoint unions of several trees or stuff like that
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22:38:05 <b_jonas> maybe it wasn't just tournaments, I'm not sure
22:38:14 <b_jonas> but definitely involving disjoint union of trees
22:38:46 <b_jonas> imode: is that the kind of thing you're looking for?
22:40:08 <imode> I'll log that down and look it up, thank you! :D
22:40:08 <b_jonas> salpynx: but there's already an esoteric language with "Your Minsky" in its name. do you really want another one?
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22:41:05 <b_jonas> imode: hmm, I'll have to look up the exact reference too then. I think I heared it on a conference, so I'll have to look it up in a conference volume that I have left in my parens' house.
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22:41:45 <b_jonas> but then you'll probably find some references to such things elsewhere
22:42:37 <imode> anything works, at your leisure of course. :)
22:42:40 <b_jonas> do you think the Bobadventures guy will be able to keep a regular update schedule for this short adventure by the way?
22:43:17 <b_jonas> imode: yeah, I'll have to write a note to myself, I'll be in their apartment in a few days but I'll probably forget to grab that conference volume.
22:43:39 <imode> that's alright, you've at least provided me some search terms. :)
22:44:17 <b_jonas> that reminds me, I shouldn't forget to take the exercise ball pump to the office tomorrow. I'll put it in my backpack now.
22:46:23 <b_jonas> salpynx: that's the random diagonals kind of maze. there's a more interesting maze that I have ported to an IRC-based interpreter that would print more than one line at some point.
22:47:36 <b_jonas> https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=764894 this maze generator. I was thinking about that, um, recently, because if I ever make that esolang that I wanted, then I should port this maze generator to it as the main example program
22:48:10 <b_jonas> it's a nice full example, because it requires you to do nontrivial random accesses to an array, and nontrivial arithmetic
22:48:21 <b_jonas> well, multiple arrays, but still
22:48:52 <b_jonas> I mean Consumer society by "that esolang that I wanted"
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22:53:48 <b_jonas> apparently salpynx mentioned something with Your ... Minsky, but I don't really understand what it has to do with Minsky
22:54:21 <ais523> b_jonas: it's a change-of-viewpoint of The Waterfall Model
22:57:38 <b_jonas> ah I see! so he wants a reinterpretation of Waterfall Model
22:59:14 <b_jonas> as in, a reflavoring of the same abstract model
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23:14:22 <salpynx> b_jonas: Yes, I have been following the Waterfall Model chat on the talk page of https://esolangs.org/wiki/Your_Pong_May_Minsky and playing with the Waterfall Model interactive tutorial recently, and wrote an interpreter for it, so I am steeped in Waterfall Model ATM. Forgot that maybe not everyone is following the same discussions :)
23:17:05 <salpynx> ais523: Thank you for that language, it is really neat and I think you have hit your goal of making it easy to implement in awkward langauges. I had been struggling for a while to proove universality of my language ΙΧΘΥΣ, and was able to come up with a conversion relatively easily
23:17:56 <ais523> the more I study The Waterall Model the more fundamental it seems, somehow
23:18:04 <salpynx> The interactive tutorial + documentation is very nice too, and fun to play with.
23:18:08 <ais523> I've been using it for TCness proofs too
23:18:32 <ais523> I need to write more of the tutorial at some point; I got held up by my own lack of skill (I can't teach something I don't know myself)
23:18:49 <oren> lol "Improvement: Move the left context to be displayed on the left"
23:19:30 <oren> "current behaviour: left context is displayed ot the right"
23:19:39 <imode> ais523: how does it seem fundamental?
23:20:21 <ais523> imode: most systems at a similar level of abstraction compile into it easily
23:20:31 <ais523> that is, low-powered counter machines
23:20:46 <salpynx> I had been working on (again starting from a silly joke) analog computing versions of esolangs, and had a version of `+` and '+-` outputting voltages to an oscilloscope... I had a capacitor discharging and realised if I could trigger tops ups to other caps, that would be Waterfall Model
23:21:32 <salpynx> I need to find some existing oscillator circuits to borrow some ideas from, but I think it should be possible, and that give you the continuous model
23:22:42 <imode> ais523: what's the semantics of the model? I can't parse the wiki page so well right now.
23:23:14 <ais523> imode: you have X counters, they all decrease at a steady rate (discretely or continuously), when one of them hits 0 then every counter is increased by a specified amount depending on which counter hit 0
23:23:25 <salpynx> imode: following the external resource link gives a good description
23:23:38 <ais523> so a program could say, say, "when counter 1 hits 0, increase it by 3, and counter 2 by 5"
23:24:22 <imode> wow, that solves the problem of checking a particular counter for zero. you have it built-in..
23:24:41 <b_jonas> salpynx: "wasy to implement in awkward languages" => but you don't mean that you'll actually want to implement bignum precision in bacterial colonies, that's just flavor, right?
23:24:46 <imode> so 1 -> 1:3, 2:5, etc.
23:25:19 <ais523> programs are typically written as a matrix, the cell at (x, y) shows how much counter y increases when counter x zeroes
23:25:58 <ais523> (there's also a column 0 showing the initial values, and a row 0 to make it easier to parse)
23:26:19 <b_jonas> ais523: right, low-powered counter machines with no size limit on their integers. it won't help much with machines where I want to manipulate symbols and don't want an exponential slowdown
23:26:42 <salpynx> I still find it difficult to process how it is Turing complete, but it does seem surprisingly powerful.
23:26:57 <ais523> b_jonas: have you seen https://esolangs.org/wiki/Simpler_Subskin?
23:27:03 <b_jonas> for machines where you have to use counters, and don't mind one level of exponential slowdown, there I can understand that you want to use it for turing completeness proof
23:27:14 <imode> iirc any 2 counter machine is TC if you allow unbounded space for integers.
23:27:19 <imode> or really natural numbers.
23:27:20 <b_jonas> ais523: by the way, have you given some reasonable upper bound for how many clocks you need for TC?
23:27:28 <ais523> imode: not quite, you need to handle the control flow somehow
23:27:37 <ais523> 2 counters + arbitrary control flow is TC, the control flow can sometimes be complex though
23:27:38 <b_jonas> with integer numbers only in the program
23:27:39 <imode> ais523: true, but that can be a single operation.
23:27:57 <ais523> b_jonas: I've spent weeks trying to figure it out, including recently
23:28:07 <salpynx> regarding my biological simulation idea, I'd love it if there were bacteria that behave that way (I'm no biologist, but I tried to use real bacterial concepts), that would make a possibly real biological computer
23:28:11 <ais523> my current guess is somewhere in the 9/10 range
23:28:22 <b_jonas> imode: for Minsky machines, 2 counter is enough for double-exponential slowdown, 3 counters for single-exponential slowdown turing completeness, and you don't get better than that with a larger number of counters
23:28:31 <b_jonas> well, at least not better than exponential
23:28:38 <b_jonas> but Waterfall model is much more restricted
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23:28:50 <imode> I'll stick with combinatory logic lol.
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23:29:04 <b_jonas> 9..10 range? I'll be interested to see that
23:29:27 <b_jonas> yeah, 9/10 if you don't mind using the slash there... I'd prefer the slash only for datetime ranges
23:29:31 <b_jonas> it's confusing with numbers
23:29:53 <ais523> for some reason I was thinking about it as "9 or 10" not "9 to 10"
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23:30:36 <salpynx> b_jonas: Well, I don't think I'll be playing with real bacteria just yet, but I found this pre-existing tool https://github.com/HaseloffLab/CellModeller that does most of the hard simulation work for cell behaviour. I only thought this up yesterday, so give me some time :)
23:30:43 <b_jonas> anyway, 10 counters would be amazing, I'll be interested to hear about what you getr
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23:31:00 <imode> computing is beautiful.
23:31:28 <b_jonas> ais523: do you mean that you're hoping for a TC *proof* for something like 10 counters, or only that the truth is around 10 counters but we can't hope to prove that?
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23:31:37 <b_jonas> the latter is more believable to me
23:31:48 <ais523> b_jonas: explicit construction
23:32:02 <ais523> I think the truth is probably actually in the 5 to 7 range but that I don't expect to optimise things that far
23:32:31 <salpynx> ais523: I think you have hit on something pretty special with it, I'm kinda new to esolangs but it jumped out as something pretty accessible yet bizarrely powerful
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23:33:33 <b_jonas> I'll definitely be interested
23:33:49 <ais523> are the logs down? I've been trying to figure out what if anything I missed during connection trouble, but I can't load the logs either
23:34:05 <b_jonas> logs were up today, let me check
23:34:26 <b_jonas> and yes, examining a small but powerful model is interesting, that's also why I should document Consumer Society
23:34:52 <b_jonas> while it's much more powerful and harder to implement than anything using counter machines, it still seems minimalistic but powerful in some sense
23:36:00 <b_jonas> in that it can efficiently simulate not only turing machines, but also turing machines with only polynomial slowdown, and more, I think I can prove it can simulate even pointer machines or arbitrary indexed RAM accesses with slowdown of a factor that's a polynomial of the length of address accessed
23:36:24 <b_jonas> but it's minimalistic in the sense that it has a version that has as few features as you can hope, if you remove anything from that version, it will no longer be able to do anything
23:36:46 <b_jonas> and that version has very few primitves
23:37:15 <b_jonas> basically just two, one for reading and one for writing, but obviously you can count these things differently
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23:39:03 <HackEso> 1148) <Taneb> Note to self: if a recipe says "serves 4", I am not physically able to eat it all in one sitting
23:39:49 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah, logs on https://esolangs.org/logs seem to be down now
23:40:05 <b_jonas> I get an 504 Gateway Time-out
23:40:28 <oerjan> . o O ( why is b_jonas pinging ais523 instead of me )
23:40:52 <oerjan> i guess he may have been talking about the same thing. _i may never know_
23:41:36 <b_jonas> oerjan: ais523 asked if the logs were down
23:41:59 <b_jonas> oerjan: you would know that if you could access the logs
23:41:59 <oerjan> i guess i didn't ask, i just tested all the other fizzie bots
23:42:21 <b_jonas> `echo Iv+WJ5un3/uqrCP9LkxjNgD7dWj3kVUhlPoeBtr8MUc=
23:42:22 <HackEso> Iv+WJ5un3/uqrCP9LkxjNgD7dWj3kVUhlPoeBtr8MUc=
23:42:38 <b_jonas> [ 'Iv+WJ5un3/uqrCP9LkxjNgD7dWj3kVUhlPoeBtr8MUc='
23:42:38 <j-bot> b_jonas: Iv+WJ5un3/uqrCP9LkxjNgD7dWj3kVUhlPoeBtr8MUc=
23:42:42 <oerjan> hm tunes is no longer in my url history
23:43:07 <b_jonas> I think the other logs don't have fresh input these days
23:43:08 <ais523> oerjan: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/18.12.18
23:43:17 <ais523> clog is still here, and still logging, although it loses connection sometimes
23:43:38 <b_jonas> yeah, you're right, that is running
23:44:00 <oerjan> ais523: i've been gone for more days than that.
23:44:13 <ais523> oerjan: you can get to the others via URL editing
23:44:17 <ais523> or just removing the date at the end for a list
23:45:49 <b_jonas> hmm, there's actually an even more serious restriction of Consumer society possible that I believe is still TC, and I'll have to think about whether that one also allows to simulate RAM machines efficiently
23:46:07 <b_jonas> I have been thinking of other similar restrictions, but not that particular one, so I'm not sure if it works
23:46:13 <oerjan> ais523: i started with the latter
23:46:21 <b_jonas> I'll have to add that to my TODO
23:46:28 <ais523> b_jonas: did you miss my comment earlier about Simpler Subskin, btw?
23:46:46 <b_jonas> ais523: no, but I haven't read what that does yet
23:47:10 <ais523> it was designed "for" you, in the sense that it is (or should be) a counter machine with only a linear slowdown over Turing machines (i.e. if a Turing machine runs a program in time t, Simpler Subskin takes time kt for some k)
23:49:00 <b_jonas> ais523: oh, I know something similar to that. I have an OISC where the basic operation is a double indirection subtract, and program and data is in the same array, so the loop is like m[2] = (m[m[m[0]++]]-=m[m[m[0]++]]) < 0; or something close to that
23:49:07 <ais523> it's likely you can compile it into The Waterfall Model in a way that optimising implementations can decompile, too; I'd expect to see the results running with a log-slowdown compared to Turing machines on ratiofall (you'd need a "sparse bigint" to get log-log slowdown, which I think is the best you can do on a practical computer)
23:49:42 <b_jonas> so m[0] is the IP and m[2] is the comparison indicator that has a value of 0 or 1, and you can use that to conditional jump in the next statement by using a 0 address
23:50:20 <ais523> b_jonas: right, there are lots of OISCs
23:50:25 <b_jonas> the same thing works without the double indirection, like m[2] = (m[m[0]++]-=m[m[0]++]) < 0; but then you need self-modifying code
23:50:31 <b_jonas> I'm not even sure which version I had, let me check
23:50:32 <ais523> this was my aim to go as simple as possible (i.e. no memory-mapping, no indirection)
23:51:19 <b_jonas> the only problem is that I only wrote one program for it, and that one program sucks because it depends on 32-bit word size, so subtraction is modulo 2**32, and that dependence is totally unncessary, I should have written the program better
23:51:44 <b_jonas> let me check what rule I used exactly, it might not be exactly the same, just something simlar
23:52:24 <b_jonas> it's possible that I had the souce before the destination in the memory, not after
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23:56:09 <b_jonas> the loop says, in perl for(my@a=(0,42,0,0,...);$a[1];$a[3]&&print chr$a[4]){$a[2]=-(($a[$a[$a[1]++]]-=$a[$a[$a[1]++]])<0)}
23:56:46 <ais523> that $a[$a[$a[1]++]] bit is pretty reminiscent of Three Star Programmer
23:56:49 <ais523> but the brackets aren't quite in the right place
23:57:18 <b_jonas> so actually IP is in cell 1, and the comparison indicator has values 0 and -1, probably because there's a subtraction involved somewhere
23:57:31 <b_jonas> and the comparison indicator is in cell 2
23:57:49 <b_jonas> darn, don't I have the assembler sourcecode for this program somewhere? let me check my archives
23:57:55 <b_jonas> https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=483243 by the way
23:58:00 <b_jonas> I want to figure out how conditionals work
23:58:50 <fizzie> I wrote "ctx->ctx->ctx" the other day.
23:58:57 <fizzie> It's just such a good name for any sort of context.
00:04:23 <b_jonas> it looks like for comparisons, I copy the value of the comparison indictor into the next statement
00:04:33 <b_jonas> but why? there's a double indirection
00:05:08 <b_jonas> isn't the double indirection enough to just conditional jump in one instruction?
00:06:11 <b_jonas> I mean, if $a[1] is 2 when the source is read, then $a[$a[1]] is the comparison indicator, and $a[$a[$a[1]]] is the instruction pointer for a false comparison, and a scratch cell for a true comparison
00:07:08 <b_jonas> I mean, obviously then you want 1 in the comparison indicator because -1 is not a safe scratch cell
00:07:16 <b_jonas> the terminator 0 for the input is in 1
00:07:25 <b_jonas> but I could have used 1 in the comparison indicator easily
00:09:19 <b_jonas> oh well, it's a very old and bad code
00:09:24 <b_jonas> would probably do it better now
00:09:29 <b_jonas> ok, let me check this subskin quickly
00:11:03 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah, this Simpler subskin is harder to program, because the control flow is conditionally skipping the next instruction and a single big loop around the program
00:11:29 <b_jonas> ais523: also the code and data are separate, so you can't write self-modifying code, and there's no indirection
00:11:50 <b_jonas> ais523: so if I understand correctly, this one can only access a limited amount of cells, so you need bignum magic to store data
00:11:50 <ais523> b_jonas: right, it's very much a tarpit-of-OISCs
00:12:08 <ais523> the trick is, it should run at full speed /despite/ the bignum magic
00:12:10 <b_jonas> ok, that is very different from the kind of OISC that I was thinking of
00:12:27 <b_jonas> I'm not sure what the best control flow is, but I definitely wanted something that can do indirect memory access
00:12:27 <ais523> as you can simulate all three main stack operations (push 0, push 1, pop) in constant time each
00:12:41 <b_jonas> which can be done either by code and data in the same space or a built-in indirection
00:13:32 <b_jonas> ais523: but only as much speed as you get with a compile time bounded number of stacks or tapes
00:13:46 <b_jonas> I want indirection to have random access to memory
00:14:05 <b_jonas> not that I need that for the example program, it's just that that's the kind of OISC I was thinking of
00:14:18 <b_jonas> obviously there are a lot of those already
00:14:28 <b_jonas> there's even a three-instruction version I think
00:14:43 <b_jonas> one that can subtract, do some bitwise operation, and conditional jump
00:14:52 <b_jonas> or maybe it's one instruction with four arguments
00:15:23 <ais523> RAM0, perhaps? although that can't do subtraction without a loop
00:15:54 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah, this Simpler Subskin with the counters and subtraction is worth documenting, at least if it's really TC with that control structure
00:16:08 <b_jonas> ais523: what it reminds me of is that IOCCC language
00:16:32 <b_jonas> the one that only has a big loop, no control structure, but add, subtract, multiply and divide on variables
00:16:42 <b_jonas> Babbage analytical engine language IOCCC 1992 buzzard1 http://www.de.ioccc.org/years-spoiler.html#1992_buzzard.1
00:17:15 <b_jonas> it's on my TODO on https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:B_jonas because it deserves at least a stub on Esoteric
00:17:16 <ais523> b_jonas: heh, I invented that one independently for a Stack Exchange competition, and called it Blindfolded Arithmetic
00:18:19 <b_jonas> to program in that one, you use those four operations to implement comparison with 0 and 1 result, then conditional assign using that and multiply, and that's the only control structure you get, but note that you can also multiple multiple comparison results together, so you can have nested conditionals
00:18:58 <b_jonas> which is helpful because two levels of conditional and a big loop gets you a state machine to simulate goot
00:19:22 <b_jonas> ais523: now I'm curios, which Stack Exchange competition?
00:19:58 <b_jonas> ah, I'll search "blindfolded"
00:20:18 <ais523> I'm trying to search the page atm, and have been for the last minute or so
00:20:28 <b_jonas> um... no, the search doesn't work for me either
00:20:32 <b_jonas> there's something on SE's side
00:20:34 <ais523> here: https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/162531
00:20:44 <b_jonas> https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/162290/escape-from-the-tarpit-cops/162531#162531
00:21:28 <b_jonas> that seems to be the one, I'll have to read it later
00:22:07 <b_jonas> yeah, seems to be very similar. I must comment then
00:23:11 <b_jonas> commented, but TODO self: read that
00:23:49 <b_jonas> ais523: the exit condition is different, but that's minor
00:25:32 <b_jonas> also, you don't have a plain assignment, but that's easy to simulate: instead of A=B; you write A-=A; A+=B;
00:26:28 <ais523> the "A -= A;" operation actually turns out to be an interesting special case in many of these small counter machines, as it's often the only way to break reversibility
00:27:24 <b_jonas> and for comparison, if you know that A is nonnegative, then you can safely do B=A; B+=1; B/=B; B-=1; and then B is either 0 or 1
00:27:38 <b_jonas> hmm, you restricted the number of variables, and don't even allow literals
00:28:00 <b_jonas> now whoever solves that has to prove that that number of memory cells is enough
00:28:11 <b_jonas> and knowing you, you probably used the lowest number of memory cells that works
00:28:26 <b_jonas> you probably have to reserve one of them just to keep a constant 1
00:28:50 <b_jonas> I'm not even sure if I can prove five is enoguh
00:29:37 <b_jonas> there's a big loop, so reusing the input isn't trivial
00:30:24 <b_jonas> let me think, I need one cell for constant 1, two scratch cells for two comparisons like above, and then you can do two-counter Minsky with the other two I think
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00:31:04 <b_jonas> how does the binary stack pop work?
00:31:33 <ais523> b_jonas: in which language? simpler subskin, or blindfolded arithmetic?
00:31:46 <b_jonas> blindfolded arithmetic. I'll work it out:
00:33:11 <b_jonas> S is the stack, I is the constant 1; then B=S; I+=I; S/=I; S+=S; B-=S; S/=I; I/=I; then B is the bottom bit and S the popped stack
00:33:39 <b_jonas> and push 0 is just; S+=S; and push 1 is S+=S; S+=I;
00:34:07 <b_jonas> but then I still need one more variable
00:34:51 <b_jonas> because I need two stacks for TC, two comparison indicators and a state indicator to implement the state machine
00:35:19 <b_jonas> unless I can bootstrap copy from the input to a stack with one less variables somehow
00:35:32 <b_jonas> ais523: darn, this is tricky
00:35:39 <b_jonas> ais523: don't tell the solution yet, I'll want to think about this
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00:40:08 <b_jonas> maybe two stacks isn't even the right approach, maybe only one variable stores the data but is accessed in a trickier way
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00:43:32 <b_jonas> I could store 2 and 3 in ternary, and rotate cyclically
00:43:44 <b_jonas> that might not work either
00:44:08 <b_jonas> TODO self: think about this and figure out how six variables, one storing input, are enough
00:44:23 <b_jonas> let me read the spec, can the input be encoded?
00:45:28 <b_jonas> must accept any positive integer as input
00:54:41 <ais523> if you don't have to handle input encoding you can do it in five :-)
00:58:09 <ais523> hmm, now I'm trying to optimise this myself, you've inspired me to see if I can use fewer variables via using a different approach
01:04:02 <b_jonas> I can probably do unconditional comparisons to add 2*(S%2) + 4*(S%4) + 8*(I<I) to the state counter, and have the program states grouped in 8 according to that,
01:04:33 <b_jonas> and in the resulting split program states, do the goto, pop, push, decrease I instructions,
01:04:45 <b_jonas> that way I only need one level of conditionals,
01:05:00 <b_jonas> so I may be able to get away with two stacks, one constant 1, one scratch, and one program counter
01:05:09 <b_jonas> but I'll have to think through because it's not quite clear if I can really do this
01:05:23 <b_jonas> the one big loop makes it tricky, because I need to handle initialization of the program very carefully
01:05:30 <b_jonas> it's easy to run out of variables during the initialization
01:05:44 <b_jonas> or run into a divison by zero somewhere during that if you mess it up
01:07:29 <b_jonas> I think this lets me keep the input register positive, and so initialize the constant 1 register, let's call it A instead of I because I is the input register, like A-=A; A+=I; A/=A;
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01:10:27 <b_jonas> and then you can do those three comparisons, like { B-=B; B+=I; B/=B; B-=I; B+=B; C+=B; } to mean { C+=1<I; }
01:13:12 <ais523> hmm, I just realised that the v=v@v and v@=v (where @ is any operation) notations for blindfolded arithmetic are equivalent; implementing the latter with the former is trivial, and the other way round, "a=b@c" can be compiled into "a-=a; a+=b; a@=c"
01:13:42 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, that's what I said about plain assignments
01:13:56 <ais523> right, I wasn't paying attention :-D
01:14:05 <b_jonas> so the comparison of I is rather like { /* precondition: 1==A && 1<=I; */ B-=B; B-=A; B/=I; /* now B == (I<=1) */ B+=B; C+=B; }
01:14:06 <ais523> or no, this isn't quite the same
01:18:20 <b_jonas> and if D and E are the two stacks, then the other two comparisons are like { /* precondition: 1==A && 0<=D && 0<=E; */ A+=A; B-=B; B+=D; B/=A; B+=B; B-=D; /* now B is D%2 */ B+=B; B+=B; C+=B; B-=B; B+=E; B/=A; B+=B; B-=E; /* now B is E%2; */ B+=B; B+=B; B+=B; C+=B; A/=A; }
01:19:01 <b_jonas> and then you'll have to do comparisons on C, but they're tricky ones because they're equality comparisons to any integer
01:19:17 <b_jonas> but since we're keeping the low bit of C clear, I think you can do that
01:21:37 <b_jonas> hmm, you might actually need to keep C a multiply of 3 to make it work
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02:18:36 <esowiki> [[Hexlr7]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58755 * Cortex * (+3036) Created page with "'''Hexlr7''' is a language by [[User:Cortex]] on 12/18/2018, designed to be easy (but not too easy) to implement. Implementing it might be a good thing to do when bored and wi..."
02:19:26 <esowiki> [[Hexlr7]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58756&oldid=58755 * Cortex * (+19)
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02:53:53 <esowiki> [[User:Cortex]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58757&oldid=58601 * Cortex * (+40)
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10:31:55 <wob_jonas> https://esolangs.org/logs/ is still down :-(
10:35:21 <esowiki> [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58758&oldid=58754 * Salpynx * (+1242) Truth-machine candidate
11:37:27 <fizzie> wob_jonas: I think you had bad timing. According to my monitoring, it was down (for me, anyway) from 11pm to 1am (UTC) over last night, and then from 10am to 11am this morning, but it should be up now.
11:37:57 <fizzie> No idea what was wrong, though. I don't think the Prometheus blackbox probe saves any logs of failed attempts anywhere. :/
11:39:14 <fizzie> Both times it's been down for almost exactly one hour (it was very briefly back up at midnight). So maybe there's some specific logs page that crashes the server, and it takes an hour to recover.
11:39:25 <fizzie> If it's just /logs, I guess nginx error logs might have something.
11:39:33 <wob_jonas> fizzie: also, I think it didn't lose IRC connectivity, only the web interface was inaccessible. good.
11:40:02 <fizzie> Yeah, those are entirely separate binaries, one writes logfiles and the other serves them.
11:40:21 <wob_jonas> fizzie: sure, but I thought it was an error with accessing the network
11:40:47 <wob_jonas> if the web process crashed, then we should try to send all kinds of bytes and other strange text in the irc lines to try to reproduce it
11:41:05 <fizzie> I think that happens quite naturally on this channel.
11:41:06 <fizzie> 2018/12/18 23:09:49 [error] 28385#28385: *3568829 upstream timed out (110: Connection timed out) while reading response header from upstream, client: 66.160.140.184, server: esolangs.org, request: "GET /logs/2018-12-10-raw.txt HTTP/1.1", upstream: "http://127.0.0
11:41:13 <wob_jonas> fizzie: right, but we want to localize the bug
11:41:15 <fizzie> ...I was going to redact that client IP.
11:41:24 <fizzie> But my paste added a newline.
11:41:30 <fizzie> In any case, not too informative.
11:41:44 <wob_jonas> I know I had a bug in cbstream with characters that aren't valid cp1252 after perlmonks has officially and retroactively changed the encoding from iso-8859-1 to cp1252, because the XML decoding failed
11:42:07 <wob_jonas> we fixed that on the perlmonks side, so that the emitted XML is valid XML 1.1, because it affected most XML parsers
11:42:32 <wob_jonas> technically the output just wasn't valid XML, and it could happen with almost all the XML API of perlmonks, it all used the same quoting functino
11:42:45 <wob_jonas> it wasn't a problem with iso-8859-1 because all bytes are valid in that
11:43:14 <wob_jonas> so now perlmonks escapes those bytes to different existing high characters when emitting xml
11:43:31 <fizzie> No logs output from the actual logs server, and the process doesn't seem to have died either.
11:43:54 <fizzie> Will have to look into this later, busy now.
11:43:58 <wob_jonas> so as long as your XML parser interprets cp1252 as the new cp1252 (MS changed it once or twice without renaming to add the four romanian disunified letters and the euro sign and maybe a few others)
11:44:25 <wob_jonas> I won't test this now, but will try to inject some strange characters here later
11:44:39 <wob_jonas> although I think there are some people here who don't like that, because it "breaks their irc client" or something
11:45:04 <wob_jonas> the bot logs only this channel, right? no test channel I can experiment with
11:45:25 <fizzie> It's just this channel.
11:45:37 <wob_jonas> oh well, then it will break those people's IRC clients
11:46:07 <fizzie> The server's written around a single-threaded event loop, so it's possible some blocking operation has found its way in, that would probably result in no special logs but "connection timed out" errors from nginx.
11:47:14 <wob_jonas> I can't just hang it by throttling the read side of the HTTP TCP connection though, right?
11:47:48 <wob_jonas> though that needs some tricky network configuration, lowering my fragment size or something
11:55:13 <wob_jonas> ais523: should I add a stub for https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/162531/6691 blindfolded arithmetic on esolangs wiki? or should I instead create a stub for the IOCCC language and mention your post there?
11:57:09 <wob_jonas> also, I wonder how it should call it. I don't want to call it just "Babbage analytical engine" because then someone might find assume that that's exactly what Babbage was planning, and that's not certain
11:57:32 <wob_jonas> do we have some sort of systematic naming for IOCCC or ICFP contest esolangs?
11:57:58 <wob_jonas> like, I dunno, IOCCC/1992_buzzard/0 or something
11:58:34 <esowiki> [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58759&oldid=58497 * B jonas * (+60)
12:09:12 <int-e> . o O ( 8b12acb3e05c4a04c73bb9638af1d2277f94c195 )
12:09:32 <wob_jonas> int-e: hmm, a random name? sure, that's possible too
12:09:39 <int-e> wob_jonas: it's not random.
12:09:58 <wob_jonas> although if I choose one, I'll use uppercase hexadecimals, or base64 encode or something, not lowercase hexadecimals
12:09:59 <int-e> it's the output of sha1sum 1992/buzzard.1.c
12:10:38 <wob_jonas> int-e: but why would I want that? "IOCCC/1992_buzzard/0" or variants of them are short enough
12:11:10 <int-e> it's content-addressable :P
12:11:16 <wob_jonas> it would have to be "IOCCC/1992_buzzard.1/0"
12:11:45 <wob_jonas> two buzzard entries that day, so "buzzard.1" is the name
12:12:27 <int-e> so what's the last component?
12:13:04 <wob_jonas> int-e: a disambiguator in case there's more than one language associated with the same IOCCC entry. that happens sometimes, though it's more common with ICFP contests.
12:13:23 <int-e> wob_jonas: hmm, put differently, where do you put the hints?
12:13:41 <int-e> and possibly other auxiliary files?
12:14:10 <int-e> tbh I think you should follow the file structure in the downloadable archives
12:14:42 <wob_jonas> IOCCC/1992_buzzard.2 has two esolangs associated, and 2018_mills has two esolangs associated too
12:14:42 <int-e> then all you need is a prefix and IOCCC seems fine for that.
12:14:54 <wob_jonas> int-e: yes, associating with the hint could work too
12:15:09 <wob_jonas> match the higher level language with the hint file that implements it
12:15:50 <wob_jonas> int-e: ok, we should do that, but IOCCC should be mentioned somewhere
12:16:21 <wob_jonas> int-e: I'm following the anchor name in http://www.ioccc.org/years.html#1992_buzzard.2
12:16:31 <wob_jonas> int-e: but downloadable archive may be better
12:19:08 <int-e> So IOCCC-1992-buzzard-1? hmmm. We have categories for years, and we might have one for IOCCC. I don't know.
12:19:35 <wob_jonas> int-e: haven't I created that? or was that for ICFP contests?
12:19:50 <wob_jonas> yeah, the latter. https://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:ICFP_contest
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13:34:21 <fizzie> wob_jonas: Now that you mention it, it actually uses a third-party HTTP server (CivetWeb), which uses the thread-per-request (from a pool) model; it's just the rest that's of it that's event-loop-oriented. In any case, the issue might be either on CivetWeb's side (I'm not terribly impressed by it) or on my side.
13:34:30 <fizzie> Although rendering "normal" log pages (like the index or a day/month) don't really involve the event loop side, it's only the stalker page which does. So if I've managed to get the event loop thread stuck, that shouldn't prevent the rest of it from working.
13:35:37 <fizzie> (Also turns out my local respository has like a billion uncommitted changes, I was in the middle of migrating the zem.fi bfjoust site to be a part of the esolangs.org infrastructure (integrating into the existing bot), and just got sidetracked and never finished that.
13:37:39 <wob_jonas> in the meantime, thank you for maintaining this
13:38:22 <wob_jonas> I will have to try to start to fix cbstream during the Christmas break, i.e. rewrite the whole darned thing and prepare to reinstall the hosting server
13:38:41 <wob_jonas> possibly even get a new hosting server for myself in the longer term or something
13:38:43 <fizzie> I maintain it in fits and starts, once every few months. :)
13:39:36 <fizzie> Still haven't managed to figure out what "Dec 19 11:58:34 techne.zem.fi esobot[19709]: [140B blob data]" means in systemctl status. There's a few messages like that per day.
13:39:36 <wob_jonas> yeah, it's just that cbstream and the hosting server are so old and dusty and bitrotten, that I'll have to purge them with fire or something
13:40:21 <fizzie> I think these correspond to the wiki updates, actually. So maybe that code path outputs something.
13:40:30 <wob_jonas> 140 bytes? hehe. cbstream has a binary log that stores 8 bytes per request, and there's normally one request per 30 seconds
13:40:52 <fizzie> Actually, maybe it duplicates the wiki update to stdout for debugging, and systemd is offended by the command characters for the colors.
13:40:57 <wob_jonas> I'll probably change the format if I rewrite cbstream though
13:41:12 <wob_jonas> and make the new version of the decoder program handle both formats
13:41:30 <fizzie> LOG(INFO) << "wiki message: " << msg;
13:41:34 <fizzie> Well, that's one mystery solved.
13:42:07 <fizzie> It's run under systemd as a service, so it captures the stdout and writes it to wherever.
13:42:14 <fizzie> (systemd is such a black box.)
13:43:47 <fizzie> I guess it's nice that you don't have to worry about timestamping, logfiles, log rotation or any of that stuff, you just write to stdout.
13:44:29 <fizzie> But the data is stored in some binary journal somewhere, and I can't for the life of me remember the journalctl command syntax. Fortunately "systemctl status" prints a snippet, and that's usually enough.
13:47:36 <wob_jonas> in fact, I should process the binary log file to be able to provide a more precise estimate on request, since part of the point of fixing cbstream is to be able to say "over 10 years, over 20 users" in my CV
13:48:02 <wob_jonas> although I added the logfile later, so the first few years are probably missing
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14:23:17 <wob_jonas> `echo qqlEwBAcGc1ZO6Lo96VwWTpTjzGss5mINX1TnM1BGYrSr5RgVslI63092oo0Tc1o
14:23:18 <HackEso> qqlEwBAcGc1ZO6Lo96VwWTpTjzGss5mINX1TnM1BGYrSr5RgVslI63092oo0Tc1o
14:31:50 <Luciole> and what does it base64 -d as?
14:37:29 <int-e> `` base64 -d <<<qqlEwBAcGc1ZO6Lo96VwWTpTjzGss5mINX1TnM1BGYrSr5RgVslI63092oo0Tc1o
14:37:51 <int-e> that doesn't look very legible ;)
14:38:10 <int-e> `` base64 -d <<<qqlEwBAcGc1ZO6Lo96VwWTpTjzGss5mINX1TnM1BGYrSr5RgVslI63092oo0Tc1o | od -tx1
14:38:10 <HackEso> 0000000 aa a9 44 c0 10 1c 19 cd 59 3b a2 e8 f7 a5 70 59 \ 0000020 3a 53 8f 31 ac b3 99 88 35 7d 53 9c cd 41 19 8a \ 0000040 d2 af 94 60 56 c9 48 eb 7d 3d da 8a 34 4d cd 68 \ 0000060
14:38:47 <int-e> `` base64 -d <<<qqlEwBAcGc1ZO6Lo96VwWTpTjzGss5mINX1TnM1BGYrSr5RgVslI63092oo0Tc1o | ndisasm -
14:38:47 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/`: line 5: ndisasm: command not found
14:47:46 <int-e> Oh well, it looks fairly random. Perhaps an sha384 hash of something (base64 encoded as wob_jonas suggested earlier)
14:48:17 <wob_jonas> I generated it with openssl rand -base64
14:48:38 <wob_jonas> it's just a unique tag to make sure HackEso is answering that line, not some other line with echo
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15:23:18 <fizzie> At least we got some unlikely bytes in the logs out of it. :)
15:25:29 <fizzie> Interesting, looks like it did another short dip as unavailable. Or at least there's failed probes for 10 minutes.
15:26:29 <LKoen> zzo38: this might be of interest to you https://towardsdatascience.com/finding-magic-the-gathering-archetypes-with-latent-dirichlet-allocation-729112d324a6
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15:35:38 <fizzie> From access logs, someone opened the stalker page right before it started failing. Something wrong with that, I guess.
15:36:02 <int-e> . o O ( let's blame oerjan )
15:37:46 <fizzie> This was with an iPhone, somehow I can't associate oerjan with iPhones.
15:38:12 <fizzie> (From New Zealand as well.)
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15:39:42 <Luciole> which might possibly be even harder to associate with oerjan
15:41:13 <fizzie> The logs are odd. There's a fetch of /logs/stalker.html (with status code 200) at 12:32:06, after that all (non-stalker) /logs/* requests get 499 (nginx code for "client closed") or 504 ("gateway timeout") up until 12:45:33 when there's a GET /logs/api/stalker.ws with code 101 (switching protocols", the normal thing for websockets) and after that regular /logs/ pages work again.
15:42:30 <Luciole> can you reproduce it by accessing stalker.html / stalker.ws ?
15:46:53 <fizzie> Maybe, but I should be paying attention to work, not this. Anyway, I think normally there should be a /logs/api/stalker.ws request right after /logs/stalker.html. Though maybe it doesn't get logged for some reason.
15:49:40 <int-e> "To update automatically, stalker mode requires a reasonably modern browser with scripts enabled. If this message does not disappear, it's either because of that or a bug. Feel free to get in touch on channel for debugging. Or just work around the issue by manually reloading."
15:50:09 <fizzie> It's probably the initial websocket request that never finishes then.
15:50:09 <int-e> Not at all, I have Javascript disabled.
15:50:53 <int-e> Obviously I have no clue what happened there earlier.
15:51:12 <int-e> And it could still be a coincidence.
15:52:38 <fizzie> Well, the stalker page worked straight out of the box for me on my work browser.
15:52:52 <fizzie> And the rest of the site is still up.
15:52:58 <fizzie> But of course this is no iPhone from New Zealand.
15:53:23 <int-e> where else could one look... anything in the kernel log (dmesg)?
15:53:47 <int-e> (or does systemd redirect to the journal as well...)
15:55:51 <fizzie> For the previous time it was down, the last successful request was also for stalker.html, so I strongly suspect the WebSocket stuff. And again the first request when it starts working again is for stalker.ws, although this time for client timing out.
15:56:03 <fizzie> So probably not a coincidence, but doesn't trigger every time.
16:03:05 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Zcstr * New user account
16:17:32 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58760&oldid=58696 * Zcstr * (+188)
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18:47:00 <b_jonas> ais523: thank you for linking to the blindfolded arithmetic thing, it's interesting. I'll have to write down the details to check, but I think you're right in that it can simulate a two-stack machine as you define it.
18:47:25 <b_jonas> in fact I'm starting to think that we can even spare one register, or simulate a three-stack machine, but I'm not certain yet
18:48:21 <b_jonas> I think it's possible to reuse (i-1) as another stack, because at the start of the program, we can copy its data, converting from base 2 to say base 4, to the stack d, all the while keeping i positive, and we don't need an extra stack during that,
18:48:46 <b_jonas> and after that we can start to use (i-1) as a second stack, distinguishing between the states using the value of c,
18:49:19 <b_jonas> but I'll have to check if this is really possible, where it could go wrong is that we might need an extra scratch register in some stack
18:56:18 <b_jonas> the tricky part is actually the equality check for the state register, I'll have to write down later how exactly that is done
19:01:58 <b_jonas> yeah, that should be possible too. just keep all state numbers divisible by 4, temporarily add (1-S) to c, then a=1/c tests if the original c was equal to S, then restore c.
19:03:14 <b_jonas> then a is 1 if the state is equal to S, 0 otherwise, and you use that to do the push or pop in that state only
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19:12:13 <imode> something I'm starting to wonder... is there a tree version of RDF rather than a graph version?
19:13:38 <b_jonas> in fact I'll have to think it can probably be done with just four variables.
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22:02:29 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58761&oldid=58567 * Cortex * (+13) /* Example-based languages */
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00:56:16 <esowiki> [[FALSE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58762&oldid=47263 * Voltage2007 * (-23) Fixed grammatical errors
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01:14:33 <oerjan> <int-e> . o O ( let's blame oerjan ) <-- i don't use the stalker logs hth
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13:27:01 <ais523_> six does seem like too many variables for Blindfolded Arithmetic
13:27:42 <ais523_> my own solution to the problem was a three-counter machine (basically due to the I/O encoding issue; a two-counter machine can't do the I/O encoding by itself so you'd need a separate system for that, a three-counter machine can)
13:28:04 <ais523_> more recently, I've been thinking that Fractran may be a good target language
13:28:14 <ais523_> we have basically all the primitives we need already
13:28:53 <ais523_> (a zero-test can be done via adding 1 and dividing into 1, and a modulus operation via divide, multiply, subtract)
13:29:23 <ais523_> let's see… we need one variable for the current working value, and two (probably) as temporaries
13:29:48 <ais523_> let's say a as the working value, b and c as the temporaries
13:31:23 <ais523_> a divisibility check by a constant k is b=a; b/=k; b*=k; b-=a; b-=a/a; c=a/a; c/=b;, now c is 1 if k divides a, 0 if k does not divide a
13:32:14 <ais523_> (Blindfolded Arithmetic doesn't have numerical constants but we can use c as a temporary to hold the value of k)
13:33:37 <ais523_> err, c is now -1 if k divides a, or 0 if k does not divide a, a distinction that's not massively important
13:34:30 <Luciole> What are the constraints in Blindfolded Arithmetic/where can I find more info about it?
13:35:04 <ais523_> Luciole: see https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/162531 for a specification
13:35:56 <ais523_> although when b_jonas and I discuss it in IRC we sometimes use shorthand, which follows the same rules as C
13:37:07 <ais523_> you can pretty much define the language in one line, though: "a bignum language which supports addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, assignment, but only one assignment and one arithmetic operation per line, no constants, no flow control, the entire program is one big loop"
13:37:23 <ais523_> what we're mostly focusing on is trying to reduce the number of variables you need for TCness as far as possible
13:38:10 <ais523_> oh, and division is integer division that trunactes towards 0
13:38:24 <ais523_> which is actually really exploitable
13:38:41 <ais523_> b_jonas has a theory that Blindfolded Arithmetic is very close to the language planned for the original Analytical Engine
13:40:11 <ais523_> anyway, we have our divisibility test, so the other thing we need for TCness is a conditional-multiply-by-ratio
13:41:12 <ais523_> and you can do that with b=a; b+=a; b+=a; … b+=a; b*=c; b+=a; b+=a; … b+=a; a=b (followed by calculating your denominator using b and c and dividing a by it)
13:41:54 <ais523_> once you do this you have a "cyclic" version of Fractran, which is TC because you can easily implement regular Fractran using one extra prime to see if you've already done a division this cycle
13:42:05 <ais523_> so it looks like three variables is enough for this without I/O
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13:43:30 <ais523_> @message b_jonas on the subject of Blindfolded Arithmetic, I think it and buzzard.1/0 are as different as bignum brainfuck and infinite-tape brainfuck
13:43:30 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: messages messages-loud messages?
13:43:33 <ais523_> @tell b_jonas on the subject of Blindfolded Arithmetic, I think it and buzzard.1/0 are as different as bignum brainfuck and infinite-tape brainfuck
13:44:09 <ais523_> @tell b_jonas which is, very similar spec, but very different programming styles; as such, there is probably room for a page about both languages (obviously, with cross-links)
13:45:32 <ais523_> I/O encoding seems nightmarish in this, though, so you might need a fourth variable for that
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13:56:19 <ais523_> I guess I/O encoding will definitely require a loop, and the only place I can see to store the encoded value of the I/O is c
13:57:16 <ais523_> meaning that we have to dead-reckon c throughout the entire operation in order to store an extra piece of data in it, which will have interesting effects on a (but we might be able to control them)
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15:23:28 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Leduyquang753 * New user account
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18:05:38 <b_jonas> ais523: I believe five variables are enough for blindfolded arithmetic, and four may be, see channel logs yesterday
18:06:31 <b_jonas> ais523: sure they're different. you allow a = b / a which Babbage's doesn't allow, which might just give you a bit of an edge when it comes to the number of variables
18:07:09 <b_jonas> ais523: I'll try to write down a detailed and readable proof some time on how I can simulate two tapes with five variables, and, if I can make it work, with four variables
18:08:11 <b_jonas> "b_jonas has a theory that Blindfolded Arithmetic is very close to the language planned for the original Analytical Engine" => definitely not. I'm saying it's very similar to the machine that IOCCC entry talks about. its author was the one who compared it to Babbage's something or anohter,
18:08:22 <b_jonas> I don't think it has much to do with Babbage actually.
18:10:02 <b_jonas> ais523: you're saying three variables? dunno, might be possible, I don't claim it impossible.
18:13:50 <b_jonas> also, wth, ais523 around 12:30 Z?
18:46:29 <lambdabot> EGKK 201820Z 21006KT 9999 BKN032 09/06 Q1008
18:46:39 <int-e> . o O ( what's the indicator for increased drone activity? )
18:58:16 <b_jonas> int-e: high temperature and buzzing
18:58:39 <int-e> different kind of drones
19:04:23 <b_jonas> try listening for microwave-based control signals
19:06:29 <int-e> b_jonas: ah but I wanted a METAR acronym.
19:07:20 * int-e could have been more specific.
19:07:39 <lambdabot> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gatwick_Airport
19:35:32 <int-e> I didn't know or forgot that we had those (probably the latter).
19:35:50 <fizzie> I remember them, I just can't remember the syntax.
19:36:22 <fizzie> It's a little ambiguous whether `icao is for converting from or to.
19:37:21 <b_jonas> is there a command that tells the timezone and current timezone offset for an airport?
19:38:42 <fizzie> Not that I know of, though the timezone is part of airports.dat.
19:39:07 <fizzie> `` grep Gatwick share/airports.dat
19:39:07 <HackEso> 502,"Gatwick","London","United Kingdom","LGW","EGKK",51.148056,-0.190278,202,0,"E","Europe/London"
19:39:45 <int-e> `` grep LOWI share/airports.dat
19:39:46 <HackEso> 1610,"Innsbruck","Innsbruck","Austria","INN","LOWI",47.260219,11.343964,1906,1,"E","Europe/Vienna"
19:40:31 <b_jonas> ``` grep Arizona share/airports.dat
19:41:13 <b_jonas> there's no international airport in Arizona?
19:41:22 <int-e> `` head -n1 share/airports.dat
19:41:22 <HackEso> 1,"Goroka","Goroka","Papua New Guinea","GKA","AYGA",-6.081689,145.391881,5282,10,"U","Pacific/Port_Moresby"
19:41:37 <int-e> no column description :/
19:42:35 <fizzie> `` grep KPHX share/airports.dat
19:42:36 <HackEso> 3462,"Phoenix Sky Harbor Intl","Phoenix","United States","PHX","KPHX",33.434278,-112.011583,1135,-7,"N","America/Phoenix"
19:42:46 <fizzie> There is, it just doesn't say "Arizona" anywhere in it.
19:43:36 <fizzie> int-e: The column description is at https://openflights.org/data.html
19:43:41 <int-e> hmm. 5282 is in m, 1906 is in ft?
19:43:50 <int-e> I meant to delete that, never mind.
19:44:13 <int-e> Google AYGA elevation is wrong :)
19:44:19 <fizzie> Except the "type" and "source" columns might be newer than in our copy.
19:47:44 <HackEso> Drones are tools used to perform certain criminal actions that were not possible in ancient times.
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20:55:37 <esowiki> [[Blindfolded arithmetic]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58763 * B jonas * (+776) Created page with "'''Blindfolded arithmetic''' is an esoteric language that [[User:ais523]] has published in 2018 on Code Golf Stack Exchange. It is similar to a language called Babbage's Anal..."
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21:14:10 <esowiki> [[Blindfolded arithmetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58764&oldid=58763 * B jonas * (+876)
21:18:03 <esowiki> [[Blindfolded arithmetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58765&oldid=58764 * B jonas * (+47)
21:18:18 <esowiki> [[Blindfolded arithmetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58766&oldid=58765 * B jonas * (+0)
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00:19:46 <esowiki> [[Blindfolded arithmetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58767&oldid=58766 * B jonas * (+8459)
00:27:21 <lambdabot> ENVA 202350Z 11010KT 080V150 CAVOK 01/M05 Q1014 RMK WIND 670FT 14013KT
00:29:12 <esowiki> [[Blindfolded arithmetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58768&oldid=58767 * B jonas * (+1029)
00:31:30 <esowiki> [[Blindfolded arithmetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58769&oldid=58768 * B jonas * (+117)
00:40:20 <b_jonas> ais523: now let me read your TC construction for Blindfolded arithmetic
00:41:07 <oerjan> . o O ( shouldn't you be reading that blindfolded? )
00:43:20 <b_jonas> ah I see, it's not ais532's construction actually
00:43:52 <esowiki> [[Blindfolded arithmetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58770&oldid=58769 * B jonas * (+17) /* External links */
00:56:12 <esowiki> [[BuzzFizz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58771&oldid=53644 * Ais523 * (-143) /* External resources */ updated compiler, now handles all of printable ASCII!
01:17:51 <b_jonas> I'll have to think about the four-register version. I think it's possible.
01:18:17 <b_jonas> I just have to squash the state counter and the first stack into c.
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08:50:20 <esowiki> [[BuzzFizz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58772&oldid=58771 * Ais523 * (+77) /* External resources */ TIO link
09:01:23 <esowiki> [[Disan Count]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58773&oldid=53609 * Ais523 * (+761) edit for accuracy, explaining why this doesn't work
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10:32:32 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ais523 * moved [[Blindfolded arithmetic]] to [[Blindfolded Arithmetic]]: caps
10:33:15 <esowiki> [[Blindfolded Arithmetic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58776&oldid=58774 * Ais523 * (+0) caps
10:33:54 <esowiki> [[User:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58777&oldid=58680 * Ais523 * (+28) one of my languages got added by someone else
10:34:48 <esowiki> [[Blindfolded Arithmetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58778&oldid=58776 * Ais523 * (-29) /* Definition */ Blindfolded Arithmetic can actually /output/ negative and zero integers, but only /input/ positive integers
10:41:45 <esowiki> [[Blindfolded Arithmetic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58779&oldid=58778 * Ais523 * (-1) /* General structure of compilation */ fix mismatched tags
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11:21:03 <wob_jonas> In the US, why did the media guys push for a longer copyright term, instead of just pushing for a fixed term after the death of the author, and then maintain Walt Disney's cryogenic chamber in a state where it's plausibly deniable that he's known to be dead?
11:23:11 <wob_jonas> ais523: I'll document the four registers construction later. It's not hard, but I have to do other stuff now.
11:23:42 <wob_jonas> Also, the extra registers are still useful, because you can put extra stacks on them, which speeds up reverse and sort operations a lot.
11:40:05 <esowiki> [[Blindfolded Arithmetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58780&oldid=58779 * B jonas * (+611) /* Four variables */ +Spare registers
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12:07:34 <ais523> wob_jonas: I'm tantalizingly close to getting it done with /two/ (without I/O, obviously)
12:08:40 <ais523> wob_jonas: look at this: http://nethack4.org/pastebin/18.txt
12:09:20 <ais523> being able to divmod by a Mersenne prime seems like the sort of basic construct which will be useful, although I haven't found a way to get from there to TCness yet
12:09:31 <wob_jonas> ais523: I won't look yet because I don't want it spoiled. I'm trying to think about this still. I'm already sure about the four variable construction, I just haven't documented it yet, and want to give a bit more thought to it.
12:09:48 <ais523> I'm sure about three-without-I/O
12:10:19 <ais523> btw, at some point we're going to have to move all the Blindfolded Arithmetic proofs onto subpages, I think
12:10:32 <ais523> I never did post mine (because you're meant to keep it secret until someone cracks the language)
12:10:48 <wob_jonas> ais523: on the other hand, if this was a real machine, I'd recommend its creator to get rid of all the mechanism for multiply and divide, and put in a more useful but easier to implement instruction, say v_0 = (v_1 < 0) * v_2, and
12:11:00 <ais523> come to think of it, I may as well post my proof for 6
12:11:37 <ais523> here: http://nethack4.org/esolangs/blindfolded-arithmetic.md
12:11:51 <wob_jonas> then they can also have each instruction execute in constant time, which probably simplifies the control a bit (though probably not much because the instructions are on a rotating disk which is unpredictable anyway)
12:12:25 <wob_jonas> ais523: weren't you supposed to keep it secret until someone cracks the language OR one week passes, and the one week passed long ago?
12:12:48 <ais523> yes, but if I mark it safe it'll be a winning entry, and the almost-crack that was posted is close enough that I don't want to win like that
12:13:03 <ais523> disclosing my solution offsite seems like a reasonable workaround to that
12:14:07 <wob_jonas> ais523: two registers seems tricky, but I have an idea to get down to three registers, and I want to think about it before reading your spoilers
12:14:53 <wob_jonas> ais523: hmm, should I modify that solution to be entirely correct then so you can mark it as accepted?
12:15:27 <ais523> I'm not sure, this is something of a grey area; I think that such an edit would be treated as equivalent to a golfing edit, thus disallowed
12:15:29 <wob_jonas> it's not hard, because his solution is similar to mine for five and four registers in general
12:15:39 <ais523> you could post your own crack if it's substantially different from the existing one
12:15:53 <wob_jonas> but my solution wouldn't be substantially different
12:15:59 <ais523> actually, I had a second language in mind for that challenge
12:16:08 <ais523> the problem is I never proved it I/O-complete (only Turing-complete)
12:16:25 <wob_jonas> I'm still using two stacks, and the details about how I store the state counter don't make much of a difference
12:16:47 <wob_jonas> in fact how I store the state counter is the main difference between the four register and five register solution
12:17:46 <wob_jonas> while the fifth register helps me simplify my proof, the sixth doesn't, it only lets me write more efficient programs than is required for turing completeness
12:18:05 <wob_jonas> oh, and I also missed non-positive outputs at first, so I'll fix my description on the wiki for that
12:22:15 <wob_jonas> ais523: in the description, yes, but not in the compilation construction
12:22:58 <wob_jonas> that one needs special mention because me and the solver on golf SE both try to keep i always positive so that b = i / i; always works
12:23:29 <wob_jonas> which is convenient because at the start of the program, the other registers are zero, so we can't construct a nonzero number without i
12:24:36 <wob_jonas> this is not a problem of course, since we can do a conditional i = 1 - i then halt very quickly, but it still has to be mentioned
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12:58:01 <esowiki> [[Blindfolded Arithmetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58781&oldid=58780 * Ais523 * (+95) /* External links */ my own TCness proof
12:59:08 <wob_jonas> ais523: you can host that on the wiki
12:59:35 <wob_jonas> a proof for the wiki is definitely on topic there
13:00:34 <ais523> I know, but it's better to have it linked until someone gets around to translating it into MediaWiki syntax
13:00:51 <ais523> (I've had bad experiences with automated Markdown → MediaWiki compilers)
13:01:07 <wob_jonas> ok. this one doesn't have much formatting so it should be easy.
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13:43:55 <esowiki> [[Blindfolded Arithmetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58782&oldid=58781 * B jonas * (+5769) /* Proof of Turing-completeness */ Ais523's Turing-completeness proof
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14:25:02 <wob_jonas> ais523: it seems that your six-register proof uses a control structure somewhat similar to mine, but you use three counters instead of two stacks, which simplifies the description
14:25:22 <wob_jonas> that is actually a good way to use six registers to get a simpler proof
14:25:46 <wob_jonas> even if it's not one I would prefer to give
14:27:23 <wob_jonas> and apparently you're using sequentially numbered states
14:35:01 <ais523> yes, there was no real reason not to
14:35:19 <ais523> three counters means that you can do the I/O encoding "inside" the system
14:35:29 <wob_jonas> sure, it may be more efficient than gotos all the time
14:35:31 <ais523> which makes things much simpler
14:35:48 <wob_jonas> two or three or four stacks also mean that
14:35:58 <wob_jonas> then I can even do IO encoding bitwise
14:36:17 <wob_jonas> it gets a bit more complicated if I want nonpositive outputs, but not by much
14:36:39 <ais523> anyway, I should go to bed really, or at least try
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14:36:51 <wob_jonas> I'll document that part, and the four register construction, and try to think about the three registers
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18:19:30 <esowiki> [[Blindfolded Arithmetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58783&oldid=58782 * B jonas * (-7) /* Compiling individual steps */
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20:06:59 <b_jonas> economy explains why the goods and services you buy are low quality and overpriced, and removes all your hope that you'll ever be able to buy high quality goods or services for cheap
20:09:40 <b_jonas> Do you think there may come a time when microSD cards become so cheap that nobody will bother printing manuals or labels to anything, they'll just tape on a microSD card?
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20:24:18 <zzo38> It won't help, since then you will need a computer that can read the file, and the electricity to run the computer (it won't work during a power outage, even if you do have a suitable computer).
20:24:20 <Luciole> I'm not sure it'd be EU regulation compliant
20:25:40 <b_jonas> zzo38: we'll have mobile phones that can read the file.
20:26:00 <b_jonas> perhaps it won't exactly be microSD, but some other form of digital data storage.
20:26:13 <zzo38> No, you might not. And even if you do the battery might run out.
20:27:00 <Luciole> why distribute a microSD card if you can just print a QR code that leads to a website with relevant manuals etc
20:27:03 <b_jonas> zzo38: for those cases, the store might have some devices fixed on the wall, just like how some big supermarkets today have self-serving barcode readers connected to the shop inventory computers to tell the price of any item from a barcode
20:27:13 <Luciole> and then you can just scan it with your phone in the supermarket
20:27:18 <Luciole> kinda surprised that isn't a thing already
20:28:24 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, that could work. It may help if you want to read the manual before opening the box, but it should not substitute for manuals and visible price tags, I should think
20:29:14 <b_jonas> zzo38: sure, if there needs to be information printed outside the box, that can happen too. or that can be replaced by a microSD card too.
20:29:46 <b_jonas> of course it gets hairy when every leaf of ten pills in a pharmaeutical must have the exact type and expiry date printed on it
20:29:56 <b_jonas> presumably it won't replace everything
20:30:00 <b_jonas> just some of the larger manuals
20:30:14 <b_jonas> the largest ones are already distributed on CDs, mind you
20:30:44 <b_jonas> a CD is still cheaper than an SD card, but only by a factor of 2 or 4
20:30:57 <b_jonas> more like a factor of 5 or 10
20:31:53 <zzo38> Not all of the information can fit on the outside of the box. Some information can be printed there, but perhaps can help to use this microSD so that you can access information that is not printed on the box because it does not fit. Although probably there should still be some manual, unless it is needing for a computer program that has the built-in manual that is suitable
20:32:00 <b_jonas> but a CD, even a small size CD, is too large
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20:50:11 <HackEso> One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
21:37:54 <b_jonas> ground water is water ground to a fine powder
22:16:56 <b_jonas> ais523: another question is whether Blindfolded Arithmetic is still TC without multiplication, if you allow a large enough number of registers
22:49:56 <int-e> b_jonas: it seems so; division is really powerful. For example, one can multiply x by a in {1,2} using the expression (x+x)/(3-a), which covers the translations of push.
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23:11:34 <b_jonas> int-e: the hard part is how to do conditionals
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00:55:58 <oerjan> `le/rn ground water//Ground water is water ground to a fine powder.
00:56:00 <HackEso> Learned 'ground water': Ground water is water ground to a fine powder.
00:56:15 <oerjan> hm should have used `# there
00:56:28 <oerjan> (it's pretty much what i invented it for)
01:17:35 <HackEso> `# <comment>//`<command> is useful if you want to add a comment to HackEgo history for things like `sled or `le/rn.
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01:18:21 <int-e> `# comment//`# comment//`# comment//`'
01:18:22 <HackEso> 3) <AnMaster> that's where I got it <AnMaster> rocket launch facility gift shop \ 5) <Quas_NaArt> His body should be given to science. <GKennethR> He's alive :P <GreenReaper> Even so. \ 6) <oerjan> what, you mean that wasn't your real name? <Warrigal> Gosh, I guess it is. I never realized that. \ 9) <reddit user "othermatt"> So what you're saying is that I shouldn't lick my iPhone but instead I should rub it on my eyes first and then lick my eyeballs?
01:19:07 <HackEso> 196) <oklopol> ah yes, indeed, alan turing was gay and stupid
01:19:28 <int-e> why did the other one return 4 quotes?
01:19:47 <HackEso> sep='//`' \ [[ "$1" == ?*"$sep"* ]] || { echo 'Usage: `# <comment>'"$sep"'<command>' >&2 ; exit 1; } \ nur "${1#*$sep}"
01:20:17 <oerjan> `# comment//`# comment//`echo hi
01:20:31 <HackEso> #!/bin/sh \ allquotes | if [ "$1" ]; then \ if expr "$1" + 0 >/dev/null 2>&1; then \ sed "$1q;d" \ else \ grep -P -i -- "$1" \ fi \ else shuf --random-source=/dev/urandom -n 1; fi
01:21:30 <oerjan> `# comment//`# comment//`# comment//`'
01:21:31 <HackEso> 3) <AnMaster> that's where I got it <AnMaster> rocket launch facility gift shop \ 5) <Quas_NaArt> His body should be given to science. <GKennethR> He's alive :P <GreenReaper> Even so. \ 6) <oerjan> what, you mean that wasn't your real name? <Warrigal> Gosh, I guess it is. I never realized that. \ 9) <reddit user "othermatt"> So what you're saying is that I shouldn't lick my iPhone but instead I should rub it on my eyes first and then lick my eyeballs?
01:21:44 <int-e> ... same 4 comments?!
01:22:05 <oerjan> `# comment//`# comment//`'
01:22:06 <HackEso> 3) <AnMaster> that's where I got it <AnMaster> rocket launch facility gift shop \ 5) <Quas_NaArt> His body should be given to science. <GKennethR> He's alive :P <GreenReaper> Even so. \ 6) <oerjan> what, you mean that wasn't your real name? <Warrigal> Gosh, I guess it is. I never realized that. \ 9) <reddit user "othermatt"> So what you're saying is that I shouldn't lick my iPhone but instead I should rub it on my eyes first and then lick my eyeballs?
01:22:44 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/`: line 5: comment: command not found
01:22:56 <HackEso> 1) <Slereah> EgoBot just opened a chat session with me to say "bork bork bork" \ 2) <Quas_NaArt> Hmmm... My fingers and tongue seem to be as quick as ever, but my lips have definitely weakened... <Quas_NaArt> More practice is in order. \ 3) <AnMaster> that's where I got it <AnMaster> rocket launch facility gift shop \ 4) <Warrigal> GKennethR: he should be told that you should always ask someone before killing them. \ 5) <Quas_NaArt> His body should be gi
01:23:26 <HackEso> 3) <AnMaster> that's where I got it <AnMaster> rocket launch facility gift shop \ 5) <Quas_NaArt> His body should be given to science. <GKennethR> He's alive :P <GreenReaper> Even so. \ 6) <oerjan> what, you mean that wasn't your real name? <Warrigal> Gosh, I guess it is. I never realized that. \ 9) <reddit user "othermatt"> So what you're saying is that I shouldn't lick my iPhone but instead I should rub it on my eyes first and then lick my eyeballs?
01:25:21 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/nur: line 1: `': command not found
01:25:36 <HackEso> 3) <AnMaster> that's where I got it <AnMaster> rocket launch facility gift shop \ 5) <Quas_NaArt> His body should be given to science. <GKennethR> He's alive :P <GreenReaper> Even so. \ 6) <oerjan> what, you mean that wasn't your real name? <Warrigal> Gosh, I guess it is. I never realized that. \ 9) <reddit user "othermatt"> So what you're saying is that I shouldn't lick my iPhone but instead I should rub it on my eyes first and then lick my eyeballs?
01:25:58 <oerjan> it fails if there's no space to split on
01:26:51 <int-e> `# comment//`quote
01:26:52 <HackEso> 27) <oklopol> i can get an erection out of a plank, you can quote me on that. \ 64) Note that quote number 124 is not actually true. \ 70) <ais523> let's put that in the HackEgo quotes files, just to completely mystify anyone who looks back along them in the future \ 123) <cpressey> Never ever use a quote which contains both the words "aloofness" and "gel" (verb). \ 172) <Sgeo> My quotes are boring \ 232) <elliott> 320 quotes and still not a funny one yet!
01:27:16 <HackEso> 124) <alise> I love logic, especially the part where it makes no sense.
01:27:39 <oerjan> it is possible quote 64 was once numbered higher
01:28:17 <int-e> 60 deleted quotes seems unlikely though
01:28:44 <oerjan> i dunno, there used to be a lot of pruning
01:29:00 <int-e> '232 looks like an accidental forward reference
01:30:06 <oerjan> and the first quotes were somewhat lower average quality, i think, _and_ have had more chances to get pruned.
01:30:35 <int-e> you probably know better than I do anyway
01:31:13 <oerjan> `` doat quotes | grep 'not actually true'
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01:31:42 <int-e> it's only log_{0.9}(63/123) decimations anyway :P
01:31:45 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/log/tip/quotes
01:31:55 <int-e> > logBase 0.9 (63/123)
01:32:41 <oerjan> hm that's not a good link to find the first revision...
01:32:57 <oerjan> `` hg cat -r 1 quotes | paste
01:32:58 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/tmp/paste/paste.28150
01:33:21 <oerjan> `` hg cat -r 1 quotes | nl | paste
01:33:23 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/tmp/paste/paste.21965
01:33:26 <int-e> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/file/1/quotes ?
01:34:06 <oerjan> seems to have been no. 82 back then.
01:36:14 <oerjan> also, the pruning standard is to display before pruning at most one.
01:36:30 <oerjan> also, the pruning standard is to display 5 quotes before pruning at most one.
01:36:44 <oerjan> i have no idea what happened to those words which i'm sure i typed
01:44:20 <int-e> . o O ( grep -q \ <<<"$1" && "$1" || "${1%% *}" "${1#* }" )
01:46:09 <int-e> ... I messed that up :)
01:46:40 <oerjan> yuck, also isn't that going to fail if "$1" exits nonzero
01:47:52 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/edit/bin/nur
01:48:02 <int-e> So some proper conditional is in order.
01:58:49 <oerjan> `mkx nur//if grep -q \ <<<"$1"; then "$1"; else "${1%% *}" "${1#* }"; fi
01:59:33 <oerjan> `mkx bin/nur//if grep -q \ <<<"$1"; then "$1"; else "${1%% *}" "${1#* }"; fi
01:59:46 <HackEso> if grep -q \ <<<"$1"; then "$1"; else "${1%% *}" "${1#* }"; fi
02:00:11 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/nur: line 1: echo hi: command not found
02:00:23 <oerjan> hm i guess it's backwards
02:00:51 <oerjan> `mkx bin/nur//if grep -q \ <<<"$1"; then "${1%% *}" "${1#* }"; else "$1"; fi
02:01:24 <oerjan> `# comment//`# comment//`# comment//`'
02:01:25 <HackEso> 285) <elliott> ais523: YOU WILL HAVE YOUR QUOTE SOON
02:10:40 <int-e> oerjan: Hah, when I wrote "I messed that up" I meant I meant the polarity of the condition.
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06:25:39 <zzo38> Houtei is more common in Washizu mahjong I think. At least in my experience it is. Since, it is possible to control it.
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08:04:51 <esowiki> [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58784&oldid=58758 * Ais523 * (+967) /* Truth-machine */ defining truth-machines without interactive I/O is an interesting conceptual problem
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11:15:23 <lambdabot> CYYB 221100Z AUTO 32021G26KT 9SM -SN OVC017 M10/M11 A2952 RMK SLP021
11:16:29 <lambdabot> EGLL 221050Z AUTO 24010KT 9999 NCD 11/07 Q1016 NOSIG
11:16:42 <fizzie> +11, -11, that's just a difference of one character.
11:21:24 <lambdabot> LOWI 221050Z 08006KT 030V130 9999 FEW060 BKN100 06/04 Q1017 NOSIG
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13:51:21 <b_jonas> darn! neighbor is listening to music very loud again
13:51:45 <b_jonas> if only I had a volume setting on my washing machine, I could turn it up on these occasions
13:53:24 <b_jonas> also when I want to wash large items or lots of clothing at the same time, now that I think of it
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15:43:38 <b_jonas> `? prime minister of missiles
15:43:39 <HackEso> prime minister of missiles? ¯\(°_o)/¯
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16:28:23 <esowiki> [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58785&oldid=58784 * Oerjan * (+160) See [[Truth-machine]]
16:30:09 <lambdabot> ENVA 221620Z 07006KT 9999 BKN047 M02/M08 Q1009 RMK WIND 670FT 11009KT
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17:20:13 <esowiki> [[Talk:Wire-crossing problem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58786&oldid=43928 * Pgimeno * (+478) /* Boolean circuits? */ new section
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19:52:14 <esowiki> [[Re:direction]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58787 * Ais523 * (+10009) new language
19:53:00 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58788&oldid=58679 * Ais523 * (+29) /* B */ +[[Blindfolded Arithmetic]]
19:53:28 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58789&oldid=58788 * Ais523 * (+19) /* R */ +[[Re:direction]]
19:53:52 <esowiki> [[User:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58790&oldid=58777 * Ais523 * (+18) +[[Re:direction]]
19:55:00 <esowiki> [[Re:direction]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58791&oldid=58787 * Ais523 * (+0) /* Computational class */ grammar
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20:03:09 <esowiki> [[Talk:Wire-crossing problem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58792&oldid=58786 * Ais523 * (+1265) /* Boolean circuits? */ you can do a planar XOR swap with actual circuitry
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23:19:30 <zzo38> Do you have any ideas about use of a bite and breath attack together in a role playing system such as GURPS?
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23:29:47 * LKoen is now imagining a vampire with bad breath
23:42:45 <zzo38> I do not mean simply bad breath but if you have a breath attack such as spit poison or fire
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04:25:16 <b_jonas> or a hellhound that breathes fire?
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04:28:40 <imode> I've got this weird idea for a fusion of a programming language, editor and database. the premise is that it's based on combinatory logic, but instead of you typing in expressions and evaluating them, combinators are "unevaluated" until you navigate to the branch you want to evaluate and hit "eval".
04:29:06 <imode> and you traverse/construct the expression tree like you were navigating a filesystem.
04:49:33 <zzo38> b_jonas: Those are some examples
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07:34:47 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Pop MAXXXIM * New user account
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09:30:07 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58793&oldid=58760 * Pop MAXXXIM * (+168) /* Introductions */
09:30:30 <esowiki> [[LolKek]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58794 * Pop MAXXXIM * (+1427) Created page with "LolKek - . ..."
09:35:01 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58795&oldid=58789 * Pop MAXXXIM * (+13) /* L */
09:35:56 <esowiki> [[LolKek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58796&oldid=58794 * Pop MAXXXIM * (-3)
09:44:29 <esowiki> [[LolKek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58797&oldid=58796 * Pop MAXXXIM * (+783)
09:48:10 <esowiki> [[LolKek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58798&oldid=58797 * Pop MAXXXIM * (+78)
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10:07:39 <esowiki> [[Andromeda]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58799&oldid=56198 * ZM * (+47) Related languages
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12:15:35 <esowiki> [[Talk:Wire-crossing problem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58800&oldid=58792 * Ais523 * (+125) /* Boolean circuits? */ sig
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15:10:57 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Dirkdev98 * New user account
15:13:19 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58801&oldid=58793 * Dirkdev98 * (+124) /* Introductions */
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15:28:40 <oerjan> too we seriously need a policy that articles must be in english...
15:29:06 <b_jonas> oerjan: I disagree. we should accept articles in other languages too.
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15:36:01 <oerjan> i take it you understand LolKek perfectly, then.
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15:36:34 <oerjan> i suspect it has limited byte size...
15:38:11 <oerjan> b_jonas: i mean, the language doesn't even look russian-themed, the command themselves are english-based
15:38:26 <oerjan> it's just the specification.
15:38:56 <b_jonas> oerjan: "english-based"? no, those are just assembly mnemonics, the actual commands are single bytes with the bits shown on the right
15:39:43 <b_jonas> but even if they were named, so what? have you seen localized Excel or Logo? they're horrible
15:40:24 <b_jonas> it makes sense to have command mnemonics in English. I mean, think about it, there's not even any sane Hungarian words for "stack", "hash", "deque", and those are just the basics, it gets worse after that when you want loops or something
15:41:03 <b_jonas> oerjan: there's a good reason why that one too has docs that calls a stack "стек"
15:41:27 <oerjan> oh i didn't notice the bits, they were almost beyond the scrollbar
15:41:46 <b_jonas> mind you, I hate languages like this, stack-based and have arithmetic operations but no comparison
15:41:59 <b_jonas> you know, like Blindfolded arithmetics
15:48:37 <esowiki> [[Re:direction]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58802&oldid=58791 * Oerjan * (+5) fix link
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16:07:11 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58803&oldid=58801 * Oerjan * (+0) *beglmru*
16:09:24 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58804&oldid=58803 * Oerjan * (-30) Oops
16:21:46 <esowiki> [[Re:direction]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58805&oldid=58802 * Oerjan * (-5) typo
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18:50:46 <zzo38> If you know their meaning in English then you should write the article in English too
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18:58:49 <zzo38> Also, the categories will still need to be English even if the article itself isn't.
19:02:31 <b_jonas> zzo38: it's not worth for such stupid articles. am I supposed to write good articles on all the brainfuck substitutions too?
19:03:22 <b_jonas> if it was something worthwhile, I might document it. I did so with some languages that weren't yet summarized in the esowiki.
19:10:08 <arseniiv> hi, if my language expertise is of any use, I’m here
19:13:50 <arseniiv> yeah seems it isn’t Russian-based, but the description is too terse but it doesn’t seem anything special, just stacks, variables, arithmetic, (bitwise?) logic, delay (what for? but ok) and two strange things named “increment/decrement of the stack by k4” — IDK what it means
19:15:22 <b_jonas> arseniiv: stacks of limited capacity too
19:15:36 <b_jonas> so limited it's basically pointless
19:15:45 <arseniiv> oh, so it’s even Turing-incomplete
19:16:05 <b_jonas> arseniiv: I'm not claiming that. it may have some stuff other than the stack that stores data
19:16:11 <b_jonas> I don't quite understand what it says
19:16:50 <arseniiv> BTW have you someone know about algebraic effects? I read about them several months ago and they seemed very beautiful to me
19:17:50 <arseniiv> yeah you guess right, let me translate, it definitely states the following at the start of the description:
19:21:55 <zzo38> OK, you don't have to do, the
19:22:11 <arseniiv> > Stack — the main stack, 64 levels [I think it’s not a usual word here, but it should mean the maximal length is 64], with 32-bit value [each level has a 32-bit value, it probably means]
19:22:11 <arseniiv> > Stack2 — the additional stack, 32 levels, 32-bit values
19:22:11 <arseniiv> > variables — 14 in total, with 32-bit values
19:22:15 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:23: error: parse error on input ‘,’
19:22:15 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:30: error: parse error on input ‘,’
19:22:15 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:16: error: parse error on input ‘in’
19:22:33 <arseniiv> oh sorry lambdabot, I didn’t mean that
19:23:06 <int-e> fungot: do you have a <hint> as well?
19:23:06 <fungot> int-e: for the hon. and learned friend the minister for that, and i have is sharing the community of fnord, the home of the other channel 4 creative and fnord industries, most fnord junction and areas to be police blind. the 19%, the state, leaving the people with the expertise.
19:23:31 <b_jonas> arseniiv: a stack of depth 64. seems normal, given that stacks are supposedly illustrated by stacks of plates in elegant buffets moved by a spring so that the top plate is always at the same heigth
19:23:46 <arseniiv> I couldn’t quite place where the author means to take non-zero values for variables (are Incr/Decr for that), though
19:24:07 <b_jonas> I don't think any buffet actually uses such spring mechanism these days, but it's a nice image nevertheless.
19:25:27 <arseniiv> yeah, I think “levels” there mean stack cells, there is no sane alternatives, but the author could word it more normally as “стек глубины 64”, literally “of depth 64”
19:25:49 <arseniiv> a buffet image is interesting, I haven’t heard of it :)
19:26:29 <arseniiv> though I don’t remember what image was supposed to illustrate stacks when I first read about them
19:26:48 <int-e> Is "стек" an authentic transcription?
19:27:38 <arseniiv> yeah, there is an alternative стэк, but it is worse and it’s not normative I think
19:27:38 <b_jonas> arseniiv: yeah, it's a pity there's no good Hungarian translation for "stack", especially not one that doesn't just sound like a "heap", not even counting the ambiguity where "heap" means two completely different things in algorithms
19:27:47 <b_jonas> the state of art is "verem". :-(
19:28:17 <b_jonas> and that's typical for all the mathematics terminology. it works well in English and even better in French, but very few people care about making it work in Hungarian.
19:28:52 <int-e> IOW, nobody likes Hungarian notation.
19:29:03 <arseniiv> there’s an inconvenience with Russian е that usually it makes the preceding consonant palatalized, but in loanwords it usually doesn’t. There’s э for that, but a small set of loanwords uses it for that
19:29:35 <arseniiv> so стек is easier on the eyes, however irregular it really is
19:30:21 <int-e> I did expect 'э'. But I guess 'styek' is close enough. I agree it's easier on the eyes.
19:30:42 <int-e> And closer to actual russian words.
19:31:12 <int-e> In the end it is what it is.
19:31:35 <arseniiv> b_jonas: oh, you remind me of поток, which could mean stream or thread. So some people used to translate the latter literally as нить. These days I think people got accustomed to homonymy
19:31:44 <int-e> My New Year's resolution is my New Year's resolution. https://xkcd.com/703/
19:32:01 <b_jonas> maybe it's a steak. though how you can push and pull 32-bit values on a steak, I don't know
19:32:50 <b_jonas> int-e: meh, once you get used to the crazy English homonyms, all the others seem tame
19:33:15 <b_jonas> especially of fields. English maths terminology does borrow from german occasionally, so why didn't they just say "corpse" or "corps" or something?
19:33:15 <int-e> A steak is plenty enough for more than 8 nibbles.
19:33:18 <arseniiv> int-e: do note however that it’s read as /stek/, without palatalization (I may have worded that unclearly)
19:34:06 <b_jonas> www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2015-03-20.2284.html#d.2015-03-20.2284 surely I have linked to this piece of writing about English used for maths articles, right?
19:34:12 <int-e> arseniiv: it didn't get across but I think that's my fault, not yours.
19:35:34 <b_jonas> arseniiv: meh, since I do read some Hungarian texts, I'm totally used to english loanwords being spelled with random english spellings, that NEVER GET CHANGED OVER TO SANE PHONETIC SPELLINGS, ever, not even when the word is obviously nativized and everyone knows it,
19:35:51 <b_jonas> like how people still spell "ímél" as "e-mail",
19:36:14 <b_jonas> and the fucking Academy is such a pushover that they even officially allow the latter as a valid alternative in their spelling rules,
19:36:46 <b_jonas> probably because they're afraid that if they didn't do so, sysadmins would get angry at them, and sysadmins being angry with you is the right kind of thing to fear. those guys hold lots of power.
19:36:49 <int-e> we should stick to tradition and say "electronic mail" and "idiotic phone" as we used to.
19:45:45 <arseniiv> I don’t like typical Russian attitude to language norm, it’s too strict, people untaught in linguistics proper often believe there can/should be only one correct word spelling or punctuation in a sentence, or that a normative language should be used not only in special places but everywhere, sometimes it gets horrible. I hope the future attitude to Russian language would be more free, and also less commas in the punctuation rules. Cu
19:45:45 <arseniiv> rrently there is a plethora of purely syntactic commas which do not clarify the meaning, and in several cases they even obscure it as there is a comma after every word (meh). Then on the internets people often write without punctuation at all, as its rules are too complex, and get incoherent
19:48:11 <b_jonas> arseniiv: ah, prescriptionists
19:48:29 <b_jonas> wait, "purely syntactic commas"? what are those?
19:48:49 <int-e> "I will say, that a man must be a d—d fool, who can’t spell a word more than one way." -- https://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/06/25/spelling/ tracking down a quote often attributed to Mark Twain.
19:48:53 <b_jonas> the Hungarian rules for commas make much more sense than the English ones. I don't understand how you could get anything worse than the random "rules" people use for English
19:50:08 <int-e> In English, most commas are a matter of style, not rules.
19:50:54 <int-e> @google "Oxford comma"
19:50:55 <lambdabot> https://www.grammarly.com/blog/what-is-the-oxford-comma-and-why-do-people-care-so-much-about-it/
19:52:18 <b_jonas> yeah, I may be exaggerating a bit about the Hungarian rules
19:52:39 <int-e> . o O ( People have, said that there is no way a comma, can ever be, wrong in English. But people are often wr,ong. )
19:53:35 <arseniiv> wait, "purely syntactic commas"? what are those? => I meant here those that surround a syntagm or something sufficietly syntagm-like, for several syntagm types these commas are almost obligatory, for example for postpositive participle phrases (if I mean it right) consisting of not a participle only
19:54:37 <arseniiv> also there are many idiosyncratic exceptions almost to every rule, spelling and punctuation alike
19:55:21 <b_jonas> arseniiv: yeah. like the rule about the comma with certain common conjunctions in Hungarian. those things are crazy.
19:55:27 <b_jonas> it's only the inter-clause commas that have sane rules.
19:55:28 <arseniiv> b_jonas> what? => I mean, prescriptionists
19:56:36 <arseniiv> I myself don’t like some ways to (ab)use language, sometimes even hate, but I don’t want to prescribe my feelings to anyone. At least for now
19:57:10 <int-e> arseniiv: You have to underatand: How can we have our lives governed by computers if there are no strict rules to follow?
19:58:01 <b_jonas> arseniiv: oh, you mean the people who think spell checkers are always right? both the ones with the american dictionary and the british dictionary?
19:58:28 <b_jonas> or the Hungarian dictionaries that try to tell you that Hungarian inflection is deterministic?
19:59:23 <arseniiv> b_jonas: oh, about conjunctions I can give an interesting example: да when it used as a synonym to и, is written without a comma (as и (and) does, in default case), but with a comma preceding when it’s synonymous to но (but), as does the latter
20:00:50 <b_jonas> I mean, I thought people would just figure out from just listening to native speakers inflecting nouns just how random it is and how different people inflect the same uncommon or rare or mythic rare words entirely differently,
20:02:00 <b_jonas> there's certainly some crazy logic to how inflections are formed, because it's one of the main cues how anyone can easily recognize a non-native speaker in Hungarian, even if he's been living here for ten years and has the perfect accent and a large vocabulary
20:02:32 <b_jonas> normal people's minds are just not made to imitate the crazy contrievances that native Hungarian speakers use to accept some inflected forms and reject others
20:04:08 <arseniiv> b_jonas: hehe yes. Also we are taught in schools about three noun declensions, then latter there are several (unnumbered) declension types, but the truth that there are much more than these (albeit they are encountered rarely, I presume) remains uncovered
20:05:25 <b_jonas> I think you could make a multiple choice test of just inflecting nouns in hungarian that detects native speakers
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20:08:46 <HackEso> boily:“Sane Mapoleon” boily is monetizing a brotherhood scheme with the Guardian of Lachine. He is also a NaniDispenser, a Trigotillectomic Groan Man Eating Chicken, a METARologist, seriously lacking in the f-word department, a thwack doctor, a Quintopial antipodist, and a renowned Capitalist who helps keep the world kafkaesque. \ dwfo:DWFO is the Doctor Who Fan Orchestra, <http://thedwfo.org>. \ semmelweis:Semmelweis saves the life of a hundred thousa
20:09:56 <int-e> (my mind found "doctor" in the vicinity of "prescriptionist")
20:13:52 <arseniiv> also there is a phenomenon of orthoepy, prescriptions about word stress. Russian stress is very wild (and certainly is a problem to non-native learners) for historic reasons, and stress of many word forms is for a long time is in state of flux, but there are people saying that these words should be accented this way and no other, it’s even worse than written-language prescriptionism. They aren’t even consciously aware of what rules s
20:13:52 <arseniiv> tress does actually follow (and it isn’t taught in schools, because for what reason? natives accentuate almost all words the same way, there’s nothing to teach), and they don’t like something, psh
20:16:15 <b_jonas> arseniiv: yeah, it's one of those historical raisins thing where the stress rules make sense until a lot of signals that determined stress, like a four times larger vowel inventory than today, was still there in the words to give you a clue about where the stress should fall
20:16:22 <b_jonas> typical linguistic evolution
20:17:39 <b_jonas> ah yes, exceptional words like "kisebb", "lesz", "köpeny", "szőlő", which many people pronounce differently from how they're written, so the spelling has to be specifically taught in school
20:18:20 <arseniiv> hope there aren’t so many of them
20:19:39 <b_jonas> arseniiv: there didn't use to be, until people started spelling every word borrowed from English, like ímél and fájl, the English way
20:19:44 <b_jonas> and there's just more and more of those words
20:20:12 <arseniiv> oh so there’s a certain blessing in having non-latin script
20:29:58 <b_jonas> just like you said about the stack
20:32:48 <arseniiv> I have thought that 'full and 'null rhyme, poor me
20:57:17 <arseniiv> oh, um, have someone added a language to Try it online?
21:12:57 <zzo38> I had idea of this kind of parsing: The parsing table is an array of cells, each is either blank or a pair of a symbol (a terminal or nonterminal) and action (either a return value or another address). If the symbol is a terminal and it matches, do the action and advance the input; if the symbol is a nonterminal, push the current address to call stack and jump to the address of the nonterminal.
21:14:12 <zzo38> If the action is a return value, add that value to the output and then pop from call stack and do the action specified there. If the action is another address, you jump to that address. If a blank is reached, then you must back track.
21:14:28 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't know what the question is, but ask ais523
21:15:13 <zzo38> My question is how to optimize the grammar and generate an optimized parser table from it?
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21:28:32 <zzo38> One thing to do is that it will be a context-free grammar and must be made proper.
21:34:50 <zzo38> Some kind of optimizations that would be possible includes that subtables can be merged if they are same or if one is a suffix of the other one (so that some possible symbols are not possible in one of the cases). Also to consider merging meaning codes of terminal symbols, to reduce the size of the parse table.
21:34:55 <rain2> zzo38: is this different to LALR parsing?
21:35:04 <rain2> it sounds very similar
21:35:12 <rain2> maybe you can just use the LALR algorithm
21:35:45 <zzo38> Is it? LALR doesn't have back tracking, isn't it?
21:41:28 <zzo38> LALR parsing tables also are working differently than what I mentioned, I think.
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22:56:13 <esowiki> [[Re:direction]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58806&oldid=58805 * Ais523 * (+96) /* Hello world program */ switch to Esolang, not TIO, capitalisation
22:57:26 <esowiki> [[Re:direction]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58807&oldid=58806 * Ais523 * (+83) /* External resources */ TIO link
22:58:52 <esowiki> [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58808&oldid=58785 * Ais523 * (+196) /* Truth-machine */ OK, this is correct then
23:00:56 <esowiki> [[Re:direction]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58809&oldid=58807 * Ais523 * (+1) /* Computational class */ typo fix
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23:03:19 <ais523> zzo38: real parsers use something quite similar to your mechanism, but it has to be more complex because the way that a terminal is translated to a value often depends on context
23:04:50 <ais523> I'm not sure how you'd determine which cell of the table to use in your mechanism; after backtracking you'd have to somehow reach a different cell the next time
23:05:00 <ais523> so in that case, the choice of cell has to depend on context
23:05:25 <ais523> I think the result once you do that will end up fairly close to either LR(1), LALR, or GLR; I'm not sure if it will be exactly the same
23:15:06 <zzo38> After backtracking you try the cell immediately after the one you have used before (it may be blank, in which case you have to backtrack again).
23:17:12 <b_jonas> oh hey! I successfully summoned ais523 from wherever he's hiding behind the logs. that's so rare!@
23:19:03 <ais523> is that just recursive descent?
23:21:18 <zzo38> I suppose it is similar, although includes the possibility to undo tokens that have already been accepted.
23:23:03 <ais523> I think you can do that in recursive descent too if the language naturally has backtracking
23:23:11 <ais523> e.g. parsers in Prolog commonly use recursive descent
23:28:46 <ais523> on another subject: <http://nethack4.org/esolangs/blindfolded-arithmetic-2var.txt> is a TCness proof (without I/O) for Blindfolded Arithmetic on two variables total, X starting at 1, Y starting at 0; I linked it so that people can avoid spoilers if they want to
23:29:19 <ais523> although it is, probably unsurprisingly, ridiculously inefficient
23:29:35 <ais523> I was a little surprised by which language I ended up implementing
23:35:25 <b_jonas> ais523: does ghc use it to parse the contradictory fixity statements that affect where the invisible braces are earlier in the code? or is that using a sat solver?
23:35:45 <b_jonas> ais523: whoa, two variables proved? wow
23:35:54 <b_jonas> I'll definitely not look at it yet
23:36:03 <b_jonas> I want to figure out how three variables are possible.
23:36:40 <ais523> three was so much easier because you had a temporary
23:36:54 <ais523> with two you have to go the really long way round to get anywhere :-(
23:36:58 <b_jonas> ais523: well yes, that's sort of the point. with enough temporaries, it becomes trivial
23:37:15 <b_jonas> I mean, for just storing data, obviously just one bigint is more than enough
23:37:47 <b_jonas> my current idea is to use a base 4 deque that we try to access from both sides, but I'm not sure it really works with just three variables
23:42:16 <ais523> that base 4 deque example reminds me a lot of High Rise
23:42:58 <b_jonas> I mean, if four variables can emulate two stacks, then maybe one variable can emulate one stack that's not really a stack
23:44:53 <b_jonas> but it gets ugly, because you need to preserve a power of two variable around the loop an arbitrary number of times
23:45:34 <b_jonas> unless you want something limited to like 2**32 stack elements, because you could totally do that because Blindfolded can square powers of two in one operation, so surely it can generate any power of two up to 2**32 in O(32) operations
23:46:02 <b_jonas> but you wouldn't call that Turing-complete, right? it would be sufficient for me to claim the language can practically do anything, but you keep me straight about those things
23:46:13 <ais523> yes, I would call that a bounded-storage machine
23:46:26 <ais523> which is one of those computational classes which is practically very useful but theoretically not very interesting (other than the issues with defining it)
23:46:52 <b_jonas> that's what led to me thinking deeper about Consumer society (it didn't have that name yet) to figure out if it can actually emulate a RAM machine that can theoretically grow arbitrarily big,
23:47:19 <b_jonas> as opposed to just emulate one that can grow to a limit in a few consecutive up arrows from the code size
23:47:40 <b_jonas> and yes it can, but it's harder than just the up arrow construction, and that's what makes it an interesting language
23:48:22 <b_jonas> just a turing machine or just a fixed size RAM is easy, but you can put them together, which is why Consumer society is so magical that I have to document it before someone figures out what the language is from all the hints I've been dropping
23:49:09 <ais523> I got the idea that Consumer society is obviously TC but not obviously efficiently TC
23:49:39 <b_jonas> it's sort of the reverse, at least to my way of thinking
23:50:20 <b_jonas> it can obviously emulate a 32-bit memory, or even a 64-bit memory (I mean, you just double the code size or something), but the TC was a surprise to me
23:50:45 <b_jonas> it's that thing where if you make something powerful enough, it automatically becomes TC. you have to do difficult stuff to STOP it from being TC.
23:51:04 <ais523> also, seeing a partially uncapitalised proper noun bothers me, I guess this is why so many people miscapitalise brainfuck
23:51:59 <b_jonas> I don't buy the british concept of capitalizing everything
23:52:20 <b_jonas> why would real wizards write "Quidditch" with a capital? it's an ordinary proper noun. and "Apparition" too?
23:52:25 <ais523> well, "proper nouns use capital letters" is a grammar rule of English in much the same way as "plurals normally end in s" is
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23:52:51 <b_jonas> that screams of it being narrated from an outside perspective where they're not ordinary common words, but practically HP trademarks in our worls
23:53:07 <b_jonas> and it's not like HP started that, Winnie the Pooh is full of that stuff too
23:53:24 <b_jonas> the original version has way more capitalized words than Karinthy's translation
23:54:52 <ais523> one reason to capitalise a term in English is that it's a technical term that has been introduced for a specific context, as a clue that you've redefined the word away from its normal meaning
23:55:23 <ais523> e.g. when we play Mafia, "day" refers to a 24-hour real-life period, "Day" to a simulated day within the game's internal timescale (which doesn't normally run in realtime)
23:55:32 <b_jonas> yeah, because quidditch wouldn't stand out as an obviously made up word otherwise
23:56:26 <ais523> sports tend to only get a lowercase name once they become really popular
23:56:54 <ais523> I think chess may be close to the borderline, the initial C tends to hover between uppercase and lowercase depending on who you ask
23:57:04 <b_jonas> hmm, that's a better example
23:57:23 <ais523> extreme ironing is a descriptive name, rather than an organised activity
23:57:31 <ais523> if you capitalised it I'd expect there to be a formal ruleset written down somewhere
23:58:11 <b_jonas> the truth of the matter is simply that Hungarian has totally different and weird rules for capitalization, and I'm used to them
23:58:21 <ais523> e.g. the Extreme Ironing World Championships has capital letters, unsurprisingly
23:59:07 <b_jonas> and even though some of them are really stupid, I prefer it over capitalizing every instance of "Monday" as if it wasn't a common name for the day of week concept that existed for OVER FOUR THOUSAND YEARS but got its name later
23:59:25 <b_jonas> I mean, "August" I can get behind, if the legends about a certain roman emperor are true
23:59:44 <b_jonas> he's in like the top few most successful historical figures of Europe
00:00:01 <b_jonas> (the actual ranking depends on how you define Europe and whether Mohammed and Jesus counts as such)
00:00:02 <ais523> b_jonas: the days of the week are mostly named after Norse deities
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00:00:09 <ais523> although Monday is an exception, that's named after the Moon
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00:00:35 <b_jonas> yeah, that's sort of a better explanation
00:00:43 <b_jonas> Wednesday named after Odin, yeah, that makes sense
00:00:49 <ais523> (and the Moon has a capital M because we're talking about Earth's Moon in particular, i.e. it's a proper name for it; lowercase "moon" could refer to any natural satellite of anything)
00:01:29 <b_jonas> I don't know why those are called "moon" or "satellite" by the way. the russians totally invented them, they should be called sputniks even in English.
00:02:18 <ais523> I think Sputnik was the name of a particular line of artificial satellites (which is famous due to being the first), and people weren't expecting the name to continue through to all satellites in the future
00:02:24 <ais523> it'd be like calling all moon landers apollos
00:03:08 <b_jonas> um, isn't it basically a common noun for artificial satellites in sane languages?
00:03:35 <b_jonas> as for moon landers, aren't ALL of the ones that carried humans actually called "Apollo"?
00:03:37 <ais523> we'd interpret "Sputnik" as referring to the first artificial satellite (or one closely related), whatever the capitalisation
00:04:02 <b_jonas> but I think it used to be a common noun for a few decades until the Americans forced it out of common use somehow
00:04:11 <ais523> and yes, I think all the moon landers which carried humans were in the Apollo series, but we wouldn't expect the same name to be used for future moon landers
00:04:19 <b_jonas> all the old books call them sputnik, at least on the east side of the Iron Curtain
00:05:02 <ais523> Wiktionary's definition of "sputnik" says that the reference to the series of Soviet satellites is "historical", and the more general usage is "dated"
00:05:33 <b_jonas> yeah, maybe it lasted for longer on this side of the iron curtain
00:05:49 <b_jonas> where we didn't have american trends about what words are "dated" and what are "trendy" until like 1990
00:06:01 <b_jonas> or more like 2002 when the internet came around
00:09:56 <ais523> and Wiktionary explains that by "historical" it means a current word that describes something that no longer exists, thus the word is only useful when talking about the past
00:10:31 <ais523> although one example they give for that is "phlogiston", which never did exist in the first place
00:10:32 <b_jonas> I'd prefer if we called them sputniks
00:10:52 <b_jonas> isn't phlogiston just oxygen after a sign change?
00:11:31 <b_jonas> I mean, it's like electric charge, supposedly since Franklin didn't get corrected by a time traveler, is electrons after a sign change?
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00:21:18 <zzo38> At least, an explanation of phlogiston that I have read in one book seems to match what you suggest.
00:25:16 <b_jonas> nah, the explanation I read is that it was just a measurement error
00:26:23 <b_jonas> phlogiston was "proved" by someone burning something in an airtight enclosure, and measuring that it becomes lighter when it's burned, so they proclaimed that flogiston is a magical material that has particles so fine that it can leak out through whatever glass enclosure they used, because obviously they didn't have modern plastic for that like we do
00:26:44 <b_jonas> it turns out that their enclosure just wasn't as airtight as they believe, and some air did leak out
00:26:52 <b_jonas> which is why the scale measured it lighter
00:27:59 <zzo38> I read a different thing than that in a different book, though.
00:28:14 <b_jonas> maybe what I read wasn't entirely trustworthy
00:28:26 <b_jonas> we had all sorts of stupid things in pop science books back when I was young
00:28:40 <b_jonas> UNLIKE NOW WHEN EVERYTHING WE READ ON THE INTERNET IS A HUNDRED PERCENT [3~TRUE
00:29:19 <b_jonas> I mean, I literally had a pop science book that told obviously false stuff about tides, and less obviously false stuff about a bicycle, for more than a decade before I realized how stupid that one is
00:29:42 <b_jonas> the phlogiston one was in a different book, but that one need not be trustworthy either
00:31:41 <zzo38> What I read in one book is they thought phlogiston has a negative mass, and that hydrogen is made of water and phlogiston. So, I thought, that mean that phlogiston is the negative oxygen.
00:32:28 <zzo38> Yes, that is what it said.
00:32:28 <b_jonas> but isn't phlogiston supposed to be some magical fuel thingy that unburned materials have but burned materials no longer have?
00:32:37 <b_jonas> that would have positive mass
00:32:45 <b_jonas> unless they measured wrong of course
00:32:47 <zzo38> I don't know. I only know what I read
00:33:06 <b_jonas> which is quite easy, given how oxygen is 1000 times less dense than wood, and they didn't have scales that precise back then
00:33:26 <b_jonas> so all the measurements they get on the weight of phlogiston are probably errors in the experiment filtered through publication bias
00:36:19 <b_jonas> the 1000 times lighter is for gaseous oxygen, that's irrelevant
00:36:37 <b_jonas> the releavnt stuff is how much oxygen the burnt wax would consume, and that weight is much more significant
00:36:58 <b_jonas> so you could actually measure it, but only if your supposedly airtight container actually lets more air in
00:37:06 <ais523> you need to compare the mass by molarity, not by volume
00:37:50 <b_jonas> it's the mass that's measured
00:38:05 <ais523> b_jonas: you need to compare the mass of the reacted oxygen with the mass of the reacted fuel
00:38:34 <ais523> and the molarity of each that reacts will be the same up to multiplication by a small integer on each side
00:38:49 <ais523> so you need to compare the mass of a mole of oxygen to the mass of a mole of wax
00:39:24 <ais523> (although with polymers, you need to count the monomers when measuring your mole, not the chains, as the monomers burn individually)
00:39:34 <b_jonas> for perfectly burning petrol in modern cars, sure. but would it be so constant in realistic scenareos from two hundred years ago?
00:39:35 <ais523> I can't remember whether wax is a polymer; wood is, though
00:40:00 <ais523> the 200-year-ago state may be /more/ controlled
00:40:29 <ais523> petrol is a very complex mixture (e.g. it's not entirely made of octane), whereas wood is almost entirely cellulose
00:40:29 <b_jonas> I think wax is ideally pure unsaturated alkane compounds, and it ideally burns to only oxygen and water
00:40:46 <ais523> OK, so wax is a short-chain polymer
00:40:46 <b_jonas> at least if you have a chemistry lab where you can burn wax that well
00:41:03 <b_jonas> so well that it doesn't even leave smoke
00:41:16 <b_jonas> but all we hear is about how messy candles and oil lighting were back then
00:41:36 <b_jonas> they got replaced by Edison's light bulbs really quickly
00:43:30 <b_jonas> and that was before oil refineries
00:43:48 <b_jonas> their gas factories were laughable
00:54:35 <arseniiv> b_jonas> seriously, "Monday"? => yeah, to me it too seems quite unnatural. I get it in German all noun are capitalized, but English seems strange in this, as French punctuation spacing and a language I don’t remember which uses quotes »like this« :D (no offense, I respect the choices, in the end I don’t write in these languages at all—except English, which I should practise more frequently, really, but it’s irrelevant in this p
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00:57:41 <b_jonas> arseniiv: yeah, French is space. French uses « outside facing » quotes like this, with thinner than normal non-breaking spaces inside them
00:58:28 <b_jonas> I know that because I read David Madore's blog, and he writes about typography often
00:59:18 <oerjan> ais523: it seems your re:direction TC proof doesn't really need the left direction, except possibly to ensure interspersed 0s instead of junk output
00:59:52 <ais523> oerjan: indeed, it doesn't need up either
01:00:27 <oerjan> otoh maybe if you have all 4 you could avoid wrapping - you're only using it at the bottom
01:00:32 <ais523> the language is more elegant with all four directions, though (and likely has more ability to write code in interesting ways)
01:01:08 <ais523> I considered "Re:direction without wrapping" as a challenge language for PPCG (i.e. the challenge is to prove it TC), but I have to prove it TC myself first before I can do that
01:03:00 <ais523> one huge benefit of the wrapping is that you can put a diamond on a row/column by itself and delete a certain type of element from the queue entirely that way; in the non-wrapping version, deletions are still possible but it's much more complex
01:05:06 <arseniiv> Russian has capitalization issues, I should admit, too. One case I remember is possessive adjectives made from proper names, these capitalize when they have certain suffixes in them (!!) Maybe this rule has some semantic overtones (it shouldn’t have been appeared by chance probably, and writers of the past certainly thought something?) but I don’t see that
01:05:15 <ais523> btw, on the subject of the two-variable Blindfolded Arithmetic construction: I've been interested in the potential for a language which can get it down to one for a while
01:05:48 <ais523> (basically, as a thought experiment into "what sort of commands would Deadfish need to be Turing-complete, with no memory but the accumulator?")
01:06:04 <b_jonas> arseniiv: yeah, the Hungarian rules are crazy too
01:06:07 <ais523> but didn't come up with anything that worked, assuming we want the commands to be arithmetically simple and take no argument
01:09:04 <esowiki> [[Blindfolded Arithmetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58810&oldid=58783 * Ais523 * (+179) /* External links */ link the two-variable TCness proof
01:12:42 <oerjan> <b_jonas> especially of fields. English maths terminology does borrow from german occasionally, so why didn't they just say "corpse" or "corps" or something? <-- i suspect that suggestion was dead on arrival hth
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01:14:58 <b_jonas> oerjan: it even has a freaky Hungarian equivalent. algebraic corpses are called "test" in Hungarian,
01:16:05 <b_jonas> and there's a whimsical suggetion to call a subcorpse "altest", because the prefix "al-" would totally work for that on normal words,
01:16:22 <oerjan> i think the french "corps" means "body", not "corpse" hth
01:16:55 <b_jonas> but "altest" happpens to mean "lower body", so mathematicians are ALL so chickems
01:17:01 <oerjan> the norwegian equivalent is "kropp", cognate to the german and used for the math too
01:17:22 <b_jonas> that thwy call it "résztest" instead
01:18:55 <b_jonas> but "torso" sounds like it's about something non-commutative because of "torsion" and how algebraist's mind work, so that's excluded
01:20:47 <oerjan> hm "underkropp" means both lower body and subfield in norwegian
01:21:01 <b_jonas> so it's a corps or a Körper
01:25:06 <oerjan> hm swedish seems to have chickened out with "del-" instead of "under-" :P
01:25:40 <oerjan> which seems like just what hungarian did too
01:27:49 <b_jonas> mind you, "rész" is much more frequent in other maths words too, partly because "alhalmaz" sound stupid
01:27:56 <int-e> oerjan: darn you made me look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corpse
01:28:21 <int-e> So I learned about plastination. Good night.
01:33:22 <oerjan> int-e: i take no blame for that hth
01:34:44 <arseniiv> corpses everywhere! :o :o :o and ghosts and whatnot
01:35:18 <arseniiv> oops Halloween has passed a while ago
01:38:34 <oerjan> b_jonas: interesting, norwegian uses "del-" in that case, "delmengde" = subset. although "undermengde" seems to have some usage.
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01:40:55 <arseniiv> I meant to say, in Russian math terminology, there is a body too, it denotes a skew field. And “subbody” doesn’t have any sufficiently strong connotations, it isn’t homonymous with any body part
01:41:57 <arseniiv> I spent so much time looking what skew field is called in English :\
01:49:53 <oerjan> <arseniiv> I have thought that 'full and 'null rhyme, poor me <-- argh they don't?
01:52:59 <oerjan> <arseniiv> oh, um, have someone added a language to Try it online? <-- i vaguely think the procedure is to go on the PPCG channel for it and ask dennis
01:53:21 <oerjan> (not that i have done so)
01:54:19 <oerjan> ais523 would know, if he hasn't already told you.
01:58:37 <oerjan> @tell b_jonas <b_jonas> ais523: does ghc use it to parse the contradictory fixity statements that affect where the invisible braces are earlier in the code? or is that using a sat solver? <-- ghc never did that, and since 2010 official haskell doesn't do it either.
01:59:49 <oerjan> @tell b_jonas (they sanely made fixity resolution a separate post-parsing phase)
02:01:06 <arseniiv> if I sometime write an implementation for Ⅎ it would be cool, but I haven’t yet and lazy to plan doing it even, so no importance
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02:14:41 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Areallycoolusername * New user account
02:15:35 <arseniiv> is there a middle ground between Haskell and Rust (or C++, but Rust is more disciplined with what way you can define an operator for your type)?
02:15:35 <arseniiv> maybe something with less freedom to do unnecessary ASCII art than in Haskell (or this is not needed and I’m deluded), and with more restrictions, in case there is a small finite set of operators, on which constraints there are when defining/overloading several operations together
02:16:58 <arseniiv> at the time I think Haskell (but with the right mathematically sound Prelude of course!) is a better alternative but
02:17:56 <arseniiv> (and that Prelude should include actions, so I could add a point and a vector and get a point, or subtract two points and get a vector)
02:18:55 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58811&oldid=58804 * Areallycoolusername * (+177) Introduction
02:19:24 <arseniiv> (I come to think people are overlooking actions, and it seems sad. Maybe they are not so practical, but still!)
02:21:23 <arseniiv> . o O ( wonders what does “areally cool” mean )
02:21:41 <oerjan> i vaguely recall mixing types like that leads to horrible type inference
02:23:19 <oerjan> although maybe that's only if you try to use the same + operator for all uses
02:23:50 <arseniiv> I think there would be an issue if we want to define a default action (only one or maybe both) for a group and use the same operation + for action(s) and a group operation itself
02:24:36 <arseniiv> also using + is somewhat bad for noncommutative cases
02:25:02 <oerjan> you might look at the replacement preludes on hackage
02:25:17 <arseniiv> I want it because of strings in too many languages, but I understand why there’s <> for Semigroup/Monoid
02:25:57 <arseniiv> in one or two of them, IIRC there were no actions, but it’s a good reminder, thanks
02:26:18 <arseniiv> I still haven’t picked a mathy Prelude to use
02:28:36 <oerjan> my haskelling is all about PPCG these days, i don't even seem to have installed lens with my GHC version, which is still 8.0.1
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02:29:50 <arseniiv> oerjan: p. puzzles and code golf or polyhedral parallel code generation?
02:30:34 <arseniiv> I wish I could say this too but I’m almost only talking about Haskell even :D
02:30:49 <arseniiv> (and I blame unmathy Prelude!)
02:33:18 <arseniiv> btw haven’t someone heard isn’t there something new about comonadic do-notation? Is it possible to do right and do one needs it at all. It seems non-symmetric to have do, proc…do but no “codo”, whatever it may be
02:34:04 <arseniiv> seems this topic ceased to interest people, I haven’t found any news when searched a while ago…
02:39:14 <esowiki> [[GreeeeeeeeenText]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58812 * Areallycoolusername * (+247) A new language page
02:42:22 <esowiki> [[GreeeeeeeeenText]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58813&oldid=58812 * Areallycoolusername * (+173) New edit
02:43:39 <esowiki> [[GreeeeeeeeenText]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58814&oldid=58813 * Areallycoolusername * (+20) New edit
02:46:02 <arseniiv> but once there were two attempts, and flaws were deemed to be in at least one of them, with not many commenters
02:46:52 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58815&oldid=58761 * Areallycoolusername * (+84) Language link
02:49:22 <esowiki> [[GreeeeeeeeenText]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58816&oldid=58814 * Areallycoolusername * (+13) Coooool
02:49:57 <esowiki> [[GreeeeeeeeenText]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58817&oldid=58816 * Areallycoolusername * (+1) E
02:50:35 <arseniiv> I thought it should be easy if one submits themselves and after some thought sees how to use duality to make it, but either there’s few folks interested or it’s non-trivial
02:51:09 <arseniiv> interested *and* fluent in comonads, that is
03:02:49 <oerjan> i'm sure edward kmett must have spoken about the issue somewhere...
03:03:21 <zzo38> I think I read somewhere that the do-notation for comonads is called "method"
03:03:27 <arseniiv> ah, seem to remember my idea what to do: we know functions a → m b where m is a monad are actually arrows (in Arrow sense), as are functions w a → b for w a comonad, so one could(?) see how do do-notation and proc…do which is doing the same, correspond; and then take proc…do which operates only on comonadic arrows and “uncorrespond” it into valid codo notation
03:03:56 <arseniiv> zzo38: yeah, one of the two authors I read called his a method
03:05:39 <arseniiv> uncorrespond => or should I say rrespond (ok I’ll show myself out)
03:10:24 <oerjan> do notation is really a quite thin sugar over >>= and lambdas, which only makes sense because it resembles intuitive imperative notation. perhaps the equivalent for comonads is simply not something already intuitive, and therefore no one sees a real point in not using the operators directly. at least that's my guess, i haven't really used them.
03:12:46 <zzo38> I thought that do-notation should be somehow definable as a macro rather than being built-in.
03:13:21 <arseniiv> horay, I have googled an article by Dominic Orchard and Alan Mycroft, “A Notation for Comonads”. Diving in
03:15:24 <arseniiv> zzo38: AFAIK it’s a sorta macro, GHC has a tiny core language which shouldn’t contain it and many other things, and it translates ordinary Haskell into it first
03:20:20 <arseniiv> no one would like writing in this core language of course, and there are no means to restrict input to it if I got it right
03:21:58 <oerjan> there's not even a parser for it, although i think you can use the GHC api to construct core in plugins
03:22:11 <oerjan> (unless someone made one since i heard)
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08:52:04 <zzo38> How to play a audio CD on Linux? I tried "play /dev/cdrom" but it says it can't determine the type of the file.
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10:09:01 <zzo38> (Specifying the type of the file doesn't help either; in that case it is a different error.)
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12:16:22 <ais523> zzo38: VLC seems to have an option to play audio CDs (it's under "open disc" in the "media" menu)
12:16:59 <ais523> I don't think playing a raw device works for the same reason that you can't open a file on /dev/hda, you need some layers in between to understand things like the partitioning and filesystems
12:17:15 <ais523> (a CD can contain both audio tracks and data tracks at the same time, implying that there's some sort of partitioning going on)
12:20:08 <ais523> @tell arseniiv for adding a language to TIO, you nee to contact Dennis (on StackExchange chat is easiest), and have a working interpreter or compiler that supports at least output, a hello world, a documentation link, and some idea about how UTF-8 source entered into TIO directly corresponds to bytes as seen by the program on disk
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15:27:50 <esowiki> [[User:Areallycoolusername]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58818 * Areallycoolusername * (+168) E
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17:15:16 <oerjan> and the foreshadowing in girl genius comes together...
17:24:54 <oerjan> also, merry christmas! (norwegian style timing)
17:38:15 <oren> oerjan: it's christmas in east asia already
17:39:15 <oerjan> well in norway's case it's mostly that it starts at 5pm on the 24th
17:40:06 * oerjan prepares to open his traditional first nutella ball
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17:42:19 <BBH> Hi everybody
17:43:06 * oerjan gets sudden urge to apply turing test to BBH
17:43:12 <BBH> b:Hi!\n;p:b;k;
17:43:19 <BBH> A:; program
17:44:10 <BBH> What's the difference between this and IRC
17:46:56 <BBH> programming anyone
17:48:05 <BBH> On my screen this website says "Not Secure"
17:49:53 <BBH> but for me it isn't such a big problem
17:50:45 <BBH> j:He;l:llo?;p:j;p:l;k;
17:51:00 <esowiki> [[A:;]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58819&oldid=58545 * Oerjan * (-15) /* Interpreter in Ruby */ fix(?) fmt
17:51:26 <BBH> "Difference between revisions of A:;"
17:51:42 <oerjan> BBH: i just removed the redundant <code></code> tags
17:52:01 <oerjan> they were causing stray little grey blobs in the page
17:53:19 <BBH> in the esolang article https://esolangs.org/wiki/A:; there are 3 or 4 empty boxes around the Ruby interpreter
17:53:43 <BBH> .... go to the web address bar and add another ";"
17:54:46 * BBH stares wide-eyed at screen *
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17:56:44 <BBH_> why is there BBH and BBH_
17:57:00 <oerjan> BBH_: you can use https to get rid of the insecure warning, i suspect
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17:57:59 <oerjan> Luciole: feliz navidad
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17:59:01 <BBH_> ok now i think this is broken'
17:59:31 -!- BBH has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
17:59:43 <BBH_> the first time i got here i was BBH
18:00:00 <BBH_> then i refreshed, logged in as BBH, and now I'm BBH_
18:00:18 <Luciole> sure, because BBH is still online, since you refreshed
18:00:38 <Luciole> it quit up there, so you can /nick to BBH now
18:00:49 -!- BBH_ has changed nick to BBH.
18:01:23 * BBH Runs away to get brunch but realizes he forgot to say thanks *
18:03:04 <oerjan> i think it may be impossible for an A:; program to print a ; character, not good for quines
18:03:14 <BBH> b:BBH gets;c: leftover bread from yes;j:terday;p:b;p:c;p:j;k;
18:04:01 <oerjan> was a \n somewhere, so maybe it can be escaped
18:04:52 <BBH> A quine would be somthing like "b:b:b:b:b:b:b:... p:b ...p:b"
18:05:23 <oerjan> oh no, the ruby interpreter explicitly substitutes \n, and only that
18:05:26 <BBH> But I can't work the Ruby interpreter 🤣
18:05:59 <oerjan> so there is probably no way to get ; into a variable
18:07:03 <oerjan> and you need at least one in any program to print
18:09:50 <BBH> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASCII#Control_Characters is not what you think.
18:10:10 <BBH> the first part is boring, but the table is important for many esolangs
18:10:33 <BBH> like Omgrofl
18:11:57 * BBH takes a break to eat brunch *
18:13:56 <oren> the C interpreter behaves quite differently than the ruby one
18:15:33 <BBH> and nothing keeps me more interested than A:; 🙂
18:24:36 <BBH> b: bottles of beer on the wall,\n;c: bottles of beer,\nTake one down,pass it around,\n;j: bottles of beer on the wall.\n\n;l: bottle of beer on the wall.\n;o:bottle of beer,\ntake one down, pass it around,\n0 bottles of beer on the wall.;q:99.0;r:1.0;t:99.0;?:q:=:t:7;p:q;p:b;p:q;p:c;s:q:r;p:q;p:j;g:6;...
18:24:58 <BBH> That's supposed to be a 99 bottles of beer program but I'm too lazy to write it all
18:26:04 <zzo38> How to make the data of a audio CD on stdout (so that it can be written to a file or piped to another program) or to mount as a file system with one file per track (which can then be played or converted by SoX)?
18:28:02 <BBH> Audio IS represented by ones and zeros. So is text... but I don't think you could convert audio to text because there's a huge amount of information in the audio file(like a CD)especially if it's >45 minutes.
18:28:16 <zzo38> I am not trying to convert audio to text
18:28:59 <BBH> but stdout can only output text right?
18:29:07 <zzo38> No, it can output any data
18:29:26 <BBH> i was thinking of the stdout in python
18:29:48 <BBH> but in any other languages idk
18:30:48 <BBH> b:I am;c: st;j:up;l:id!\n;p:b;p:c;p:j;p:l;k;
18:31:09 * BBH That is true *
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18:35:01 <BrightBlackHole> i looked at the esolang A:; article and i found out that the page was "last edited on 20:18, December 2, 2018".
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18:36:09 <oren> BrightBlackHole: depends on the server timezone
18:36:27 <oren> BrightBlackHole: and the native timezone of the user who edited it
18:36:49 <oren> I hate time zones
18:37:57 <zzo38> I don't hate timezones. However, the timezone could be specified in the timestamp to avoid, such as adding "Z" at the end if it is UTC
18:38:25 <zzo38> That would have to be fixed in MediaWiki software if you wanted to do that though.
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18:38:27 <oren> I don't know if the wiki uses its own time zone or converts time ro the zone of the user
18:45:27 <arseniiv> timezones are a relic of times when there was hardly an easy way to lookup local astronomical times of different places, now in principle we can with the internet and all that, but the zones don’t want to go :(
18:45:55 <zzo38> I don't hate timezones but I do hate daylight saving time
18:46:17 <arseniiv> and so I must live more than a hour away of my local time (IIRC, as there was flux several years ago, still)
18:48:40 <arseniiv> and the noon is 13:something, bwah, and with DST it was for several years even 14:something (as the people somewhere there ceased to understand what DST means, for some obscure reason; then a while ago DST was canceled, finally)
18:51:01 <oerjan> oren: the timezone is a user preference, defaulting to UTC
18:52:30 <oerjan> although in talk page signatures, UTC is used.
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19:53:31 <zzo38> I discussed yesterday with the GM of the game if we can use bite and breath attack together, and he said it can be done, and also that my character (and others of the same species, too) are immune to his own breath attack. (So, if we need to fight someone else of same species, should then use other weapons such as arrows, or even melee attacks, which even in case of natural melee attacks should still work.)
19:56:16 <zzo38> What would you think?
20:12:03 <oerjan> if the breath comes out of the same body opening as where the teeth are, then it would seem hard to do both efficiently simultaneously...
20:12:48 <zzo38> Yes, but I meant on the next turn, if opponent has not yet escaped. If on the same turn, maybe you have to make a rapid strike for a -6 penalty to hit.
20:13:17 <zzo38> If you still think there something wrong with that you can complain about that too
20:17:41 <zzo38> Also in this case is sharp beak rather than teeth
20:22:36 <oerjan> might depend on the beak shape how well it works
20:23:10 <zzo38> Ah, yes, I suppose so.
20:26:24 <oerjan> also on how the breath attack works, if it just needs to touch the opponent's body or e needs to breath it in...
20:26:36 <zzo38> It is a contact agent
20:26:46 <zzo38> (I did already consider that)
20:29:16 <oerjan> the species might very well have evolved holes or gaps in the beak precisely to be able to do this
20:29:44 <oerjan> if it's evolved rather than magically designed, i guess
20:29:56 <zzo38> O, OK, I suppose that can make sense.
20:48:41 <zzo38> Thank you for your suggestions
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21:57:52 <zzo38> Do you like to play Scrabble with memoryless blank tiles?
22:26:52 <LKoen> is there a context to this question? I just arrived
22:30:20 <zzo38> There is no other context, I think
22:38:29 <LKoen> must I understand that the tiles forget which letter they represent, as soon as they're played?
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22:47:45 <zzo38> Yes, rather than the normal rule which is to have to remember which one it is.
22:51:40 <esowiki> [[Brain:D]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58820 * Areallycoolusername * (+643) :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
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23:05:43 <esowiki> [[Brain:D]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58821&oldid=58820 * Areallycoolusername * (+99) : + infinite Ds
23:08:20 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58822&oldid=58815 * Areallycoolusername * (+58) /* Brainfuck derivatives */
23:12:19 <esowiki> [[Brain:D]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58823&oldid=58821 * Areallycoolusername * (+104) :
23:13:40 <esowiki> [[Brain:D]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58824&oldid=58823 * Areallycoolusername * (+0) Hol' up I did an oof.
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06:48:54 <zzo38> Maybe in that game if you use a breath attack and bite together, since your mouth is not open enough so it will cause less damage than it should normally do. I don't know, but that is one idea I have
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07:12:20 <esowiki> [[Re:direction]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58825&oldid=58809 * Ais523 * (+26) /* Hello world program */ grammar, clarify
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07:51:24 <chal_> Is /// input-universal?
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12:17:11 <esowiki> [[LolKek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58826&oldid=58798 * Pop MAXXXIM * (+37)
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12:43:29 <esowiki> [[LolKek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58827&oldid=58826 * Pop MAXXXIM * (+0)
12:43:55 <b_jonas> zzo38: re reading audio from CD, if you have a linux machine and a CD drive connected to the same machine and the drive isn't too ancient, then install libburnia from distro or ... source would be at http://www.libburnia-project.org/ but that website is down,
12:44:25 <b_jonas> then use the cdrskin program in libburnia with the right switches to read the table of contents and audio cd tracks to files, read the manpage of cdrskin for that, then cat some of those files to stdout.
12:45:12 <b_jonas> there are also programs older than libburnia that can do this, but I think libburnia supercedes them if you have a working linux
13:05:57 <b_jonas> libburnia handles CD and DVD disks of all kinds, it is partitioned to three source packages: libburnia has the higher-level C api and a few command-line executables including cdrskin and isorrix, and two dependency libraries, one each for the file system details and the disk drive hardware details, at least the parts that aren't always done by the
13:06:30 <b_jonas> even if the website is down, you should be able to find the source packages at debian
13:07:36 <b_jonas> I then use ffmpeg to process the raw music files I read
13:07:51 <b_jonas> (and some wrappers in shell script or perl specific for my applications)
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13:14:04 <b_jonas> arseniiv => hmm, I guess you're in Russia or Belarus then. though I don't know when DST was abolished.
13:15:35 <b_jonas> zzo38: that seems normal. most adult dragons are immune to their breath attacks, and I think most other creatures that have a breath attack have at least some resistance to it, except perhaps with some really exotic breath attacks
13:15:53 <b_jonas> it's hard to imagine someone breathing fire or ice or poison but not being very resistant to it
13:18:35 <b_jonas> oerjan: ore more dangerously, the creature might breath flammable gas and withstand enough heat that comes into contact with the exhaust hole, but not be able to withstand the fire at its hottest point with its skin completely. but dragons don't work this way, because they have scales in most parts of their body, and the fire dragons' scales protec
13:18:35 <b_jonas> t against the fire by the time they can use their breath attack
13:20:49 <b_jonas> hmm, apparently Russia removed most parts from DST changes only quite recently. I know that most parts were ahead of mean solar time even in winter when I was young.
13:22:28 <b_jonas> zzo38: you've probably read http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/3018.html about dragons and their resistance to fire
13:24:10 <b_jonas> as for breath attack and bite attack together, I have no problem with a creature having both, and in particular a dragon would have both. I always imagined that they didn't use the two simultaneously, but with a small delay, but that doesn't make too much difference, it might still happen fast enough that both are effectively on the same turn.
13:24:53 <b_jonas> ais523: ^ chal_'s question
13:30:40 <esowiki> [[LolKek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58828&oldid=58827 * Pop MAXXXIM * (+108)
13:35:28 <esowiki> [[LolKek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58829&oldid=58828 * Pop MAXXXIM * (+88)
13:35:50 <esowiki> [[LolKek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58830&oldid=58829 * Pop MAXXXIM * (+2)
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14:07:43 <esowiki> [[LolKek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58831&oldid=58830 * Pop MAXXXIM * (+224)
14:09:47 <esowiki> [[LolKek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58832&oldid=58831 * Pop MAXXXIM * (+149)
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14:20:46 <ais523> b_jonas: chal_ quit before I could get online, but I don't know the answer for sure
14:20:48 <ais523> I'm guessing no though
14:21:25 <ais523> although thinking about it, I've seen ///-alikes that are
14:22:54 <ais523> re: poison, its' weird that "poison immunity" / "poison resistance" is treated as a universal, general-purpose thing
14:23:04 <ais523> when in practice there are a large number of different poisons with different mechanisms
14:23:07 <b_jonas> sure, gnu sed is universal for non-interactive IO for example. it can concatenate all the input, then do all the work after it's all read. I think sed is even universal for interactive linewise IO.
14:23:16 <ais523> so a poison-breathing dragon, I'd expect it to be immune to its own poison, but maybe not to those of other species?
14:24:10 <ais523> it actually misses out on universality in a fairly stupid way (if input is completely empty, output must be too)
14:24:24 <ais523> if you append/prepend a newline to the input then you have universality
14:25:03 <b_jonas> ais523: well, a few things that you might sometimes call "poison" don't count into it, and exist separately, such as acid (though I think in some D&D versions, acid is poison), sleep, nethack hallucination. in a modern tech setting, there might be more of these, such as toxical heavy metals and radioactivity.
14:26:10 <b_jonas> ais523: we have examples for fire and cold dragons that are immune too
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14:27:02 <b_jonas> I think a dragon with teleport breath or force bolt breath would perhaps not be immune to its own breath, but those things are rare
14:27:21 <ais523> anyway, time to go off and do Christmas things with family
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14:27:39 <b_jonas> mind you, a force bolt dragon would still be somewhat tough because of its scales, so it would be able to withstand several turns of force breath by a kin
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14:33:50 <LKoen> b_jonas: as far as I know, real world doctors make a distinction between three types of poisoning: chemical, biological, or radioactive
14:35:33 <LKoen> I must say I had never heard of or though of "teleport breath" before
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14:36:25 <LKoen> although "I breath some fumes on you, you pass out, and when you'll wake up you'll be in another place" is somewhat of an overused hollywood plot device
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15:55:32 <esowiki> [[LolKek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58833&oldid=58832 * Pop MAXXXIM * (+0)
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16:43:28 <oerjan> <chal_> Is /// input-universal? <-- hm if that means what i think it means, then i've looked at it, and the answer is no, but only barely.
16:45:52 <oerjan> you need to be able to exclude _some_ string from the input in order to be sure not to lose information while substituting. but it may be possible to choose any single excluded string you want.
16:47:01 <b_jonas> meh, this is a channel with public logs, so I don't much care about who parts
16:47:49 <oerjan> (incidentally i thought of this while making this PPCG answer: https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/142655/draw-my-downslashes/156081#156081 )
16:48:03 <oerjan> b_jonas: it wasn't a regular so my worry is more that e won't come back
16:48:48 <oerjan> in that answer i managed to just append a raw string input, despite the input format consisting entirely of / and \
16:49:55 <b_jonas> dofuck fails output universality in a stupid way
16:50:23 <b_jonas> but then, it's a stupid language, so that's ok
16:53:30 <int-e> `` bc -l <<<'scale=100;e(1)'
16:53:31 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/`: line 5: bc: command not found
16:53:46 <lambdabot> 2.7182818284590452353602874713526624977572
16:54:58 <b_jonas> `[ 0j15":^1 NB. still just 64-bit floating point
16:55:03 <b_jonas> [ 0j15":^1 NB. still just 64-bit floating point
16:55:04 <j-bot> b_jonas: 2.718281828459045
16:57:52 <fizzie> `` bc -l <<<'scale=100;e(1)'
16:57:52 <HackEso> 2.718281828459045235360287471352662497757247093699959574966967627724\ \ 0766303535475945713821785251664274
16:58:52 <int-e> `` BC_LINE_LENGTH=0 bc -l <<<'scale=100;e(1)'
16:58:53 <HackEso> 2.7182818284590452353602874713526624977572470936999595749669676277240766303535475945713821785251664274
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17:16:50 <zzo38> To use two attacks on the same turn in GURPS requires a rapid strike, with a -6 penalty to hit (-3 for kung fu masters), so that is what I suggested if you can use both on same turn.
17:21:37 <zzo38> I would think especially contact agent poison (rather than fire) breath attack, you would likely be immune to your own; with fire you could still get burned I would think (although you may be resistant to the heat, though). In this case the poison is one that makes the target sleeping
17:24:03 <zzo38> Like b_jonas I also did not intend anyone would actually use a bite and breath attack truly simultaneously. Rather, my question was about using a breath attack if your mouth is still touching the target (they didn't escape) after biting. So, I thought, in such a case the breath attack can't miss, but your mouth isn't open very wide so it the damage of the breath attack should be reduced (but by how much?)
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18:57:35 <zzo38> (Presumably it will be reduced to minimum damage, I suppose. That is still not so bad, though, since any armour is already bypassed, probably)
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20:20:04 <esowiki> [[Brain:D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58834&oldid=58824 * Areallycoolusername * (+421) Code added
20:22:04 <esowiki> [[Brain:D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58835&oldid=58834 * Areallycoolusername * (+6)
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20:30:36 <esowiki> [[Brain:D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58836&oldid=58835 * Areallycoolusername * (+362)
20:51:03 <esowiki> [[Brain:D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58837&oldid=58836 * Areallycoolusername * (+120)
20:52:35 <esowiki> [[Brain:D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58838&oldid=58837 * Areallycoolusername * (-2)
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00:37:03 <esowiki> [[GreeeeeeeeenText]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58839&oldid=58817 * Areallycoolusername * (-110)
01:05:08 <esowiki> [[Ummm...]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58840 * Areallycoolusername * (+1040) Created page with "Ummm... is a programming language made by [[User: Areallycoolusername]]. It's a language that starts to execute your code fine, but then forgets what it's doing. In the case t..."
01:05:53 <esowiki> [[Ummm...]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58841&oldid=58840 * Areallycoolusername * (-2)
01:07:55 <esowiki> [[User:Areallycoolusername]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58842&oldid=58818 * Areallycoolusername * (+73)
01:08:09 <esowiki> [[User:Areallycoolusername]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58843&oldid=58842 * Areallycoolusername * (+1)
01:10:20 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58844&oldid=58822 * Areallycoolusername * (+60) /* General languages */
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01:46:43 <esowiki> [[Talk:ScrubCode]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58845 * Cortex * (+119) Created page with "=== A === Well this sure aged terribly ~~~~"
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02:21:04 <oerjan> sam starfall wants humans not to fowl it up.
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05:41:38 <whitequill> I wanted to offer a correctoin to https://esolangs.org/wiki/Blacktime. I have found a copy of it on github. https://github.com/threeifbywhiskey/blacktime.
05:42:33 <whitequill> it doesn't have the beautiful digital syntax and it is strictly Whitespace. the version on the site must be a derivative.
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05:46:00 <oren> Happy Boxing Day Everyone!
06:00:21 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Bubbler * New user account
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06:37:14 <esowiki> [[But Is It Art?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58846&oldid=51710 * Ais523 * (+20) /* Semantics */ fix an ambiguity in the specification in the direction that avoids DoFuck-like I/O problems
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07:49:07 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58847&oldid=58811 * Bubbler * (+223)
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10:10:43 <oren> I did t bois. The Free City of Hamburg is a great power, with a larger colonial empire than Britain lol
10:11:01 <oren> https://imgur.com/6eVMUDa
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14:39:15 <esowiki> [[RunR]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58848&oldid=36199 * Salpynx * (+171) Hello World example
14:42:12 <esowiki> [[Talk:RunR]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58849 * Salpynx * (+280) VB interpreter bug
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18:08:07 <esowiki> [[Ummm...]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58850&oldid=58841 * Areallycoolusername * (+130)
18:43:49 <b_jonas> `pbflsit http://pbfcomics.com/comics/returned-mail/
18:43:50 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pbflsit: not found
18:43:53 <b_jonas> `pbflist http://pbfcomics.com/comics/returned-mail/
18:43:53 <HackEso> pbflist http://pbfcomics.com/comics/returned-mail/: shachaf Sgeo quintopia ion b_jonas Cale
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20:03:13 <zzo38> Can any version of Linux using SysRq+F1, SysRq+F2, etc to send signals to init if signal handlers are set for them? (init might use this to execute external programs according to some configuration file set up by the system administrator, maybe.)
20:06:16 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't think sysRq can do that, but I think there are two keystrokes in ordinary non-raw console keyboard mode that you can assign to something like that, plus you can assign global shortcuts in X too
20:06:48 <b_jonas> neither is as reliable as sysrq, because there are ways to freeze or crash X11, or to just get your console to raw keyboard mode without X
20:07:57 <b_jonas> for messing with X keyboard layouts, I recommend setting up commands that you can trigger purely with the mouse, so you can use them no matter how much you mess up the keyboard layout
20:08:20 <b_jonas> you can also use timers or network triggers
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23:04:14 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58851&oldid=58795 * Bubbler * (+13)
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23:28:37 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58852&oldid=58851 * Bubbler * (+2)
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00:29:32 <shachaf> Zero-suppressed binary Decision Diagrams.
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00:44:07 <oerjan> . o O ( oren ist ein Hamburger )
00:48:29 <oerjan> after last girl genius update i was sort of wonder if that was the end of a book, but it seems not...
00:49:33 <shachaf> I was in your time zone but now I'm back home.
00:49:45 <shachaf> But my sleep is still in your time zone. But maybe your sleep is in my time zone?
00:52:29 <oerjan> also, they actually gave an approximate time period for Albia's memory, the way they kept saying "long ago" until now i thought they were going to avoid it...
00:52:50 <oerjan> shachaf: sounds about right.
00:53:31 <oerjan> no i hate them despite never having heard of them before, they're just that bad hth
00:54:27 <HackEso> Your omnidryad saddle principal ideal golfing toe-obsessed "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty evil grinch is a punctual expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it.
00:55:24 <shachaf> swrjan s/His ark-nemesis is Noah/His arch-nemesis is Shin-ichi MINATO/
00:55:39 <shachaf> But it's probably just as well I didn't.
00:55:58 <shachaf> inventor of ZDDs, i think hth
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01:36:06 <moony> shachaf, give me a eli5 of zdds
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02:33:36 <esowiki> [[Flatland]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58853 * Bubbler * (+2545) Created page with "The '''Flatland''' language operates on a 2D plane of instructions, but it is ''not'' grid-based (as opposed to [[Befunge]] and [[Fish|><>]]). Rather, the execution paths are..."
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08:47:10 <zzo38> Is there the way in Linux to clone a process so that the clone is suspending the parent like CLONE_VFORK and sharing the same memory like CLONE_VM but also shares all registers (including the program counter)? In this case it will not be useful with clone() but can be used with sys_clone, and the assumption that _exit() never returns is invalid. Also, execve() might return even if successful, which it normally can't.
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13:21:37 <esowiki> [[Brain:D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58854&oldid=58838 * Areallycoolusername * (+26)
13:22:36 <esowiki> [[LolKek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58855&oldid=58833 * Pop MAXXXIM * (-4)
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15:40:42 <oerjan> i see Brain:D is even more braindead than i first surmised.
15:42:19 <oerjan> at first i thought the lack of mention of spaces was just a small mistake.
15:47:58 <int-e> oh it's one of these write-only languages
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15:53:59 <myname> how do you even interpret that?
15:59:32 <int-e> you make a lucky guess, and then you start running
16:00:39 <int-e> that, or you make a global registry mapping program lengths to their intended parse
16:00:53 <int-e> ... this will seriously mess up golfing competitions.
16:14:48 <oerjan> i've seen people golf in unary
16:15:19 <oerjan> aka lenguage and a heap of other names
16:20:12 <int-e> *looks* Yeah that's different. Lenguage is Brainfuck golfing with a lexicographic comparison of programs on top, so [+] is better than [-].
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17:17:22 <esowiki> [[Dunke!]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58856 * Areallycoolusername * (+1308) Language
17:19:54 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58857&oldid=58852 * Areallycoolusername * (+13) /* D */
17:21:31 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58858&oldid=58857 * Areallycoolusername * (+0) /* D */
17:24:22 <esowiki> [[Dunke!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58859&oldid=58856 * Areallycoolusername * (+0)
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17:34:47 <b_jonas> imode: about that graph trees thing, this is the one I had partly remembered: https://arxiv.org/abs/1104.0642 Dániel Gerbner, Balázs Keszegh, Cory Palmer, "Generalizations of the Tree Packing Conjecture"
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18:06:46 <b_jonas> @tell imode about that graph trees thing, this is the one I had partly remembered: https://arxiv.org/abs/1104.0642 Dániel Gerbner, Balázs Keszegh, Cory Palmer, "Generalizations of the Tree Packing Conjecture"
18:09:53 <esowiki> [[DukkTap]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58860 * Areallycoolusername * (+1273) Created page with "DukkTap is an esoteric programming language that acts like a piece of duck tape. it's inspired by a idea in the idea list sectrion of esolang. DukkTap has 6 commands {| class..."
18:10:26 <esowiki> [[DukkTap]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58861&oldid=58860 * Areallycoolusername * (-1)
18:11:23 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58862&oldid=58379 * Areallycoolusername * (+26) /* Partially Silly Ideas */
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18:16:48 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58863&oldid=58858 * Areallycoolusername * (+14) /* D */
18:18:41 <esowiki> [[DukkTap]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58864&oldid=58861 * Areallycoolusername * (-1)
18:29:27 <imode> yooo, thanks for the article. :)
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19:33:41 <imode> what model of computation makes the smallest amount of assumptions? lambda calculus assumes an implicit local set of variable bindings, combinatory logic assumes an implicit conversion of trinary/binary functions to unary ones during evaluation, turing machines assume a state table, tape, read/write head, and a set of symbols...
19:34:26 <arseniiv> imode: what do Markov algorithms assume?
19:35:04 <imode> markov algorithms and thue systems assume an ever-expanding string, a set of symbols, and either an unordered or an ordered set of ordered pairs of rules.
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19:35:48 <arseniiv> ah, I seem to start understanding the topic
19:36:12 <arseniiv> though I’m still unable to say something useful on it
19:37:32 <imode> something that bothers me is that LC/CL is phrased as "the smallest model of computation", when they aren't: they make implicit assumptions that need to be made explicit when they're actually evaluated.
19:37:58 <imode> combinatory logic at least is smaller than the lambda calculus, as it doesn't suffer from the weight of implicit variable bindings.
19:38:23 <imode> but I really wonder what's the "smallest" when everything's made explicit.
19:39:56 <b_jonas> imode: look at some of the crazy ones that ais523 cares about, especially the ones related to counter machines
19:40:30 <imode> something that bothers me about those is the idea that they presuppose the natural numbers.
19:41:02 <arseniiv> shouldn’t we presuppose something unbounded in all cases?
19:41:04 <imode> you start with something powerful then you artificially limit yourself. you have to then sidestep everything by an encoding.
19:41:44 <b_jonas> imode: not at full power. ultrafinitism isn't enough, but you only need to go a few exponentials to see that they work
19:41:49 <arseniiv> to me natural numbers seem very bland of all unbounded things used for computation :)
19:42:11 <arseniiv> or not very, but at least sufficiently
19:42:14 <imode> there's all sorts of properties about them that you get for free, though. primes spring to mind, which is how godel numbering came about.
19:42:20 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58865&oldid=58651 * Ais523 * (+1392) /* The Amnesiac from Minsk */ add
19:43:11 <imode> overall it just seems inelegant. presupposing the naturals kind of brings in a package of assumptions as well.
19:45:18 <arseniiv> but we can encode them anyway and encode all the things needed for Gödel encoding, so is their complexity not imaginary?
19:46:09 <imode> you don't have to resort to godel encoding if you use a tape and an alphabet, for example.
19:48:54 <arseniiv> …in comparison to other things used for computations
19:48:55 <arseniiv> you don't have to resort to godel encoding if you use a tape and an alphabet, for example. => ah hm. But in what cases we have to resort to it? For counter machines, one could use Cantor encoding of pairs and other tuples which doesn’t use primes in its construction
19:49:18 <imode> I am now interested. tell me more.
19:49:58 <imode> never heard of cantor encoding of pairs.
19:50:57 <b_jonas> you mean like (x,y) => choose(x+y,2)+y ?
19:51:22 <esowiki> [[User:Areallycoolusername]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58866&oldid=58843 * Areallycoolusername * (+25)
19:51:42 <arseniiv> I remember there were squares in there and the projection functions were not so complicated
19:51:48 <b_jonas> arseniiv: binomial coefficient
19:51:57 <imode> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pairing_function#Cantor_pairing_function
19:52:25 <imode> I never knew about this.
19:53:14 <imode> that seems pretty... out there. in order to work with it, you need to have a firm grasp of the properties of natural numbers, which draws in multiplication, addition, subtraction, division, square roots..
19:54:04 <imode> floor, exponentials..
19:54:19 <b_jonas> then there's the (x,y) -> (2**x + (2*y+1)) encoding, and the other Cantor encoding (square-shaped, not triangle-shaped) that (0) uses
19:55:18 <imode> that is pretty ballin', though.
19:55:57 <imode> I dunno. I don't see the case for machines that presuppose the natural numbers, but I could use some more convincing. it's definitely not an area that I've explored to a great degree.
19:56:33 <arseniiv> imode: I think the way using all those is just a simpler one to compactly derive, write and calculate and all that but isn’t necessary. We could establish that the pairing is a bijection and that the projections are increasing, so there’s a simple boring algorithm to calculate them
19:56:56 <arseniiv> it would be all long and no fun
19:57:02 <imode> that sounds like fun to me.
19:57:23 <arseniiv> :D I haven’t done that by myself though
19:58:04 <b_jonas> arseniiv: look at David Madore's comment on the specific pairing relation he chose for (0)
19:58:10 <b_jonas> there's a particular reason for that
19:58:12 <arseniiv> also I think it’s almost alike Kuratowski and others pair constructions in set theory
19:58:42 <arseniiv> ah, (0) is an esolang? Will look at
19:59:01 <imode> my issue as well is that the operations you'd consider useful to do _actual_ work, in some sense, are very far removed from the operations you actually get with a counter machine.
19:59:10 <imode> you have to mangle increment and decrement in some sense.
19:59:47 <arseniiv> > (0) has only one basic data type, ordinal numbers => you gotta be kidding
19:59:48 <b_jonas> arseniiv: yes, (0) is an esolang
19:59:49 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:24: error: parse error on input ‘data’
20:00:38 <arseniiv> (btw how do I quote here without disturbing lambdabot’s sleep?)
20:00:56 <b_jonas> Blame David for the lack of good names for all but one of his esolangs
20:01:47 <b_jonas> ► try triangle for quoting
20:02:59 <imode> so you have a model that presupposes you understand enough about the natural numbers to encode useful ideas. the weight of those assumptions outweighs turing machines already.
20:07:58 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58867&oldid=58865 * Ais523 * (-1) /* The Amnesiac From Minsk */ caps
20:07:59 <b_jonas> imode: maybe if you could tell what is it that you do want to presuppose, it would be easier to tell what computation model suits them the best. Descartes's silly little thing? Euclides's straightline and compass? The ZFC axioms?
20:08:27 <HackEso> 374) <monqy> it was a wonderful dream <monqy> i died in it <monqy> that's how it started
20:08:33 <HackEso> 1135) <shachaf> i'm from space.........chu space
20:08:34 <imode> I'm not sure! hence I'm just wondering.
20:08:51 <esowiki> [[The Amnesiac From Minsk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58868&oldid=54286 * Ais523 * (+140) /* The Amnesiac From Minsk, level 1 */ hello world
20:09:30 <imode> hence why I asked "what model of computation makes the smallest amount of assumptions?"
20:10:05 <imode> what was that about descartes?
20:10:11 <esowiki> [[The Amnesiac From Minsk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58869&oldid=58868 * Ais523 * (+136) implemented
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20:11:35 <b_jonas> dunno, maybe something about someone offering him a drink on an airplane, or stupidity and the size of the universe
20:12:18 <b_jonas> sorry, bad attempts of pop culture injokes
20:14:15 <arseniiv> b_jonas: if I understand David Madore’s post right, he defined pair(x, y) = if x < y then y^2 + x else x^2 + x + y?
20:15:07 <arseniiv> I have no hope to understand the motives, though
20:17:35 <arseniiv> (though I didn’t get one about a drink)
20:23:33 <imode> we need the computational equivalent of a compass and a straightedge.
20:31:09 <arseniiv> I’m afraid as the elementary geometry is proven a complete and sound theory it shouldn’t allow one to base Turing-complete computation models on itself IMO
20:31:45 <arseniiv> and compass and straightedge don’t exceed its bounds
20:33:35 <imode> heh, I didn't mean literally... but that brings to mind: what would a turing complete geometry look like?
20:39:32 <imode> maybe something akin to tiling?
20:48:50 <b_jonas> arseniiv: only when x and y are natural numbers
20:49:07 <b_jonas> arseniiv: the definition is more complicated in the extended case when the pairing function and (0) works over all ordinals
20:49:25 <b_jonas> arseniiv: David's comment on the same post explains the motives for the pairing function
20:49:50 <b_jonas> that doesn't mean that it's the one true pairing function for everything, there are different goals you may want for a pairing function, that's why there are so many good ones
20:50:37 <imode> I am now curious as to the application of tilings to an evaluation strategy for combinatory logic.
20:52:10 <b_jonas> imode: this comment specifically http://www.madore.org/cgi-bin/comment.pl/showcomments?href=http%3a%2f%2fwww.madore.org%2f~david%2fweblog%2f2017-08.html%23d.2017-08-18.2460#comment-23779
20:54:54 <arseniiv> b_jonas: ah thanks, I’ve finally found it!
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22:25:11 <imode> is 1D wang tiling turing complete?
22:28:19 <imode> makes sense. what's the power of them, then? off the top of my head you could perhaps simulate a single stack machine.
22:39:05 <rain1> I think they are somewhat trivial
22:39:30 <rain1> you can rather easily decide if a set of 1d tiles will have a finite or infinite cover
22:39:44 <rain1> you just need to find a cycle
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22:57:28 <b_jonas> imode: no, but there's something close to it that is, with two one-dimensional tilings and the tiles in them matching in sequence ... whatever is the name of that
22:58:05 <b_jonas> it's called Post correspondance problem I think
22:58:25 <HackEso> Spelling of -ance/-ence words: advance, science, conference, experience, finance, insurance, licence, performance, reference, assistance, balance, defence, difference, distance, evidence, acceptance, appliance, audience, compliance, importance, influence, instance, intelligence, maintenance, preference, presence, sentence, sequence, substance, violence, absence, accordance, alliance, appearance, assurance, attendance, circumstance, clearance, confidence, c
22:58:43 <HackEso> 2/2:e, consequence, entrance, excellence, existence, fragrance, governance, guidance, independence, offence, refinance, residence, resistance, romance.
22:58:47 <HackEso> 1/2:Spelling of -ance/-ence words: advance, science, conference, experience, finance, insurance, licence, performance, reference, assistance, balance, defence, difference, distance, evidence, acceptance, appliance, audience, compliance, importance, influence, instance, intelligence, maintenance, preference, presence, sentence, sequence, substance, violence, absence, accordance, alliance, appearance, assurance, attendance, circumstance, clearance, confidenc
22:58:57 <b_jonas> correspondance isn't common enough to go to that short truncated list
22:59:32 <b_jonas> and it's actually spelled corespondence
23:00:06 <b_jonas> as it should be obvious to anyone for etymology reasons, because all that spelling comes from old French and Latin
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00:22:45 <imode> so I have a language. it's called Modal. Modal is based off of term rewriting, and its reduction strategy is based around a queue automata. it features three data structures in its implementation: a dictionary of variable bindings (global), a pattern buffer for matching and construction of new patterns, and an expression buffer that holds the current expression under evaluation.
00:24:17 <b_jonas> imode: go on, I'm listening
00:25:19 <imode> I have a subproject, called Mode, which is like Modal, only the model of computation under consideration is combinatory logic.
00:26:08 <imode> I'm intending on showing a reduction from Modal to Mode, and then show a reduction from Mode to some kind of queue automata or, barring that, a string rewriting system, then to a queue automata.
00:26:37 <imode> my goal at the moment is to show a reduction from Mode to a queue automata.
00:27:41 <imode> the issue I'm having is the idea of interpreting combintory logic via a queue automata. it's mainly just confronting the idea of partial application/currying.
00:28:24 <b_jonas> by combinatory logic, you mean that thing that birds like the Mockingbird do?
00:28:32 <imode> (if you're interested, the code for Modal's interpreter is at https://git.imode.tech )
00:28:56 <imode> yes. the birds in that book represent predefined transformations on term trees.
00:29:37 <imode> https://git.imode.tech/?p=python/modal;a=blob;f=prelude.modal;h=d2ac42077ebee97a46937e18ef493338c021394a;hb=refs/heads/master some example Modal code.
00:30:51 <imode> my hope was to reduce Mode to just a bare queue automata with some special rules. i.e, cut away the pattern buffer.
00:31:10 <imode> err, cut away the dictionary and leave the pattern buffer.
00:31:42 <imode> so if modal is {Variable Bindings, Pattern Buffer, Expression Buffer}, mode is {Pattern Buffer, Expression Buffer}, and string rewriting is just {Expression Buffer}.
00:32:25 <b_jonas> hmm, I think you'd mentioned this language before
00:32:52 <imode> yeah, I've talked about it a bit in here.
00:35:13 <imode> the issue I'm encountering is the idea of partial application. normally, with queue-based evaluation, you check the head of the queue. depending on the combinator, dequeue its arguments in a special way into the pattern buffer, building up a new pattern. then, enqueue that pattern after you're done building it.
00:37:43 <imode> but with partial application, the rules change. "``SK" in unlambda notation, for example, means "((S)K)". if we were to take this as a kind of rewriting system, we'd do something like the following to "represent" partially applied combinators:
00:38:06 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `SK: not found
00:38:50 <imode> my point is that in order to implement partial application, you need to have a distinction between what's partially applied and not partially applied.
00:41:32 <imode> you can do that by saying "`AB -> <AB>". so "````skkk" -> "```<sk>kk" -> "``<skk>k" -> "`<skkk>" -> "```kk`kk" -> "``<kk>`kk" -> "``<kk><kk>" -> "`<kk<kk>>" -> "`<kk>"
00:41:52 <imode> you add delimiters to clarify that this part of the string of applications has been partially applied.
00:42:24 <imode> that's irritating because, queue/string-wise, you now have two types of "spans".
00:42:59 <imode> I'll be right back. gotta shower. highlight me and I'll read back.
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01:08:11 <esowiki> [[Talk:Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58870&oldid=55677 * Areallycoolusername * (+376) /* Category? */
01:09:36 <esowiki> [[Talk:Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58871&oldid=58870 * Areallycoolusername * (+33) /* Category? */
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02:11:19 <esowiki> [[PERPLEX]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58872 * Areallycoolusername * (+1023) Created page with "[[PERPLEX]] is an esolang created by [[Jussef Swissen]] (A pseudonym.) in 2014. It's basically a over-complicated version of BASIC. For example, PRINT is now INSCRIBE. Here's..."
02:13:00 <esowiki> [[Jussef Swissen]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58873 * Areallycoolusername * (+86) Created page with "Jussef Swissen is a programmer that made [[PERPLEX]]. The name he uses is a pseudonym."
02:26:37 <esowiki> [[Talk:Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58874&oldid=58871 * Oerjan * (+60) /* Category? */ No date in signature
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02:35:32 <lambdabot> ENVA 280150Z 26013KT 3300 RA SCT005 BKN009 OVC011 04/04 Q1013 RMK WIND 670FT 27018KT
02:35:45 <oerjan> yeah that's about how humid it feels
02:35:58 <lambdabot> KOAK 280153Z 01007KT 10SM FEW200 12/M03 A3016 RMK AO2 SLP214 T01221033
02:36:24 <oerjan> i take it california is pretty dry again
02:38:32 <shachaf> my standards are low now hth
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02:50:14 <HackEso> A horse, a horse! My kingdom for a horse!
02:50:26 <oerjan> oh i guess we already have horses
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03:18:20 <imode> the only flaw I can find in combinatory logic is that partial application and currying, at least from what I can see, requires you to to differentiate between partially applied sequences of combinators.
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03:36:39 <int-e> imode: hmm, what is the task precisely? make a queue automaton that can reduce CL terms represented by strings generated by the grammar T ::= 'S' | 'K' | '`' T T?
03:37:59 <int-e> (hmm, you had lower case s and k, but that hardly makes a difference)
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03:38:26 <imode> essentially yeah. that's unlambda notation.
03:39:50 <int-e> I like the Unlambda notation for application. I used it in https://www.isa-afp.org/browser_info/current/AFP/Rewriting_Z/CL_Z.html ;)
03:40:45 <int-e> (well, something that resembles it... it needed extra spaces and occarional parentheses to really work)
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03:41:13 <imode> I dig it as well. it solidifies that you always need at least two combinators, so to speak. "apply" is actually an operation in that notation, and that's actually derived from schonfinkel's paper.
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03:46:57 * int-e wonders how one mistypes 'r' for 's'...
03:48:08 <imode> the keys are like right there man.
03:48:48 <int-e> They're not adjacent. So clumsiness is an unlikely reason :)
03:52:55 <int-e> ruse, if you do it insentionally
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04:39:20 <zzo38> Now I made the program to use Glk with JavaScript.
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05:48:40 <oerjan> i see the people in girl genius are trying to raise a racket
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07:06:36 <int-e> imode: ooph. http://paste.debian.net/1057746/
07:24:18 <imode> int-e: interesting. unlambda interpreter?
07:25:02 <imode> is this a string rewriting system?!
07:35:39 <int-e> imode: that's a queue automaton
07:35:59 <int-e> <state> <symbol> -> <string> <state>
07:36:08 <int-e> is the syntax I'm using
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07:39:01 <imode> interesting. so you only examine a single symbol at the head of the queue, then enqueue some string.
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08:00:52 <imode> that's really fascinating. how'd you whip that up so fast?
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08:04:35 <int-e> golfing... saving 3 states: http://paste.debian.net/1057754/
08:05:41 <int-e> imode: hmm, having an interpreter is crucial; and I had an inspiration how skipping over a subterm could work (that logic uses the # and % symbols, and involves the first four states)
08:06:24 <imode> interesting... I've been trying to get subterm extraction working with the unlambda notation.
08:09:05 <int-e> In that logic, a % preceding a # somewhere has the effect of pushing the # one whole subterm further ahead.
08:10:14 <int-e> Having % makes skipping over `XY easy: we've read the `, so we put it back, put a % that will eventually push the # over the Y, then skip X. That's the logic of the # state.
08:10:33 <imode> thaaaat... makes sense.
08:10:34 <int-e> (if # encounters an s, it'll just skip over that and drop the # marker; same for k)
08:13:35 <imode> the question I have is can this be made combinator-agnostic. like it looks like you have specific interactions between specific combinators. if we had a larger basis, the state count would blow up.
08:19:12 <int-e> Well, you'll have to add logic for all those combinators anyway, which will already blow things up. That said, you /can/ make the copying agnostic by some counting scheme (assign numbers to each symbol; decrement the symbol to 0 while copying; then you don't have to remember a whole symbol in a state)
08:19:44 <int-e> you can also do some binary encoding, at the cost of a logarithmic number of states in the %/# handling.
08:20:23 <imode> true. still is a little unweildy though. ideally we'd have some kind of "schema" that generates these state tables from equational definitions of combinators.
08:21:07 <int-e> or, you just add one pass over the whole string that replaces each combinator by the corresponding SK expression.
08:21:40 <imode> you might get smaller reduction times, though, with different bases.
08:22:54 <int-e> I was semi-golfing. I wanted a small number of extra symbols (3 right now, #, %, $) and a reasonably small number of states (20 now, not counting the halting state)
08:23:41 <imode> translating this to an SRS would be trivial.
08:24:02 <int-e> almost trivial... you have to take care of the cyclic nature of the queue.
08:24:33 <int-e> or you rewrite cycles ala https://www.win.tue.nl/~hzantema/cycrew.pdf
08:25:00 <int-e> then it is trivial, just need to keep the states separate from the other symbols.
08:25:23 <imode> something that I dreamt of (was napping earlier) was a reduction from combinatory logic to wang tilings and something like a counter machine.
08:26:04 <int-e> Anyway, the only thing I might want to add is 'i' and that's almost trivial... needs one extra state, I think.
08:26:34 <int-e> (and that extra state is for copying)
08:29:01 <imode> so you have states for Sk and SK, and these denote an explicit interaction between S and K, right?
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08:29:36 <imode> I notice you don't have any for K applied to S.
08:29:52 <imode> but you do have them for S applied to S.
08:30:16 <int-e> imode: those are copying states. I got rid of SK, SS and S' in the latest paste.
08:30:22 <int-e> 09:04:35 <int-e> golfing... saving 3 states: http://paste.debian.net/1057754/
08:31:12 <imode> right. so if I were to add for example C, I'd need to show how C interacts with S and K.
08:36:32 <int-e> C would be similar to S.
08:36:54 <int-e> (moving a string over another one, or copying it, is basically the same amount of work)
08:39:02 <int-e> http://paste.debian.net/1057755/ is what would be needed to implement `i`. So... basically all existing states get a new transition, and there's an Si state. This is atypical in that reducing `iX just removes the "`i" so that no marking of arguments or I* states are needed.
08:41:19 <int-e> Anyway. Extensibility was not a goal. I wanted the default SK(optionally I) combinatory logic, nothing more.
08:42:31 <imode> you've at least shown me a compact implementation. thank you!
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09:02:10 <imode> hm.. has anybody ever done wang tiling over arbitrary graphs, I wonder.
09:03:48 <imode> self-assembling graphs..
09:15:06 <imode> wonder if there's a "background-agnostic" version of wang tiling, i.e "self-assembly" systems that don't rely on the idea of a planar backdrop to expand into.
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10:11:15 <imode> hm. now I'm curious... a CA/tiling that can generate its own backdrop.
10:12:26 <imode> for example, a CA that, initially, has a confined area of space for rules to be applicable in, but by way of local interactions, that space can grow.
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11:10:29 <imode> I just had an epiphany. any system of combinators can be encoded as a set of wang tiles. any set of wang tiles is essentially a "crystalline" CA, where one axis is time. combinatory logic thus may be able to be encoded pretty cleanly into something like a cellular automaton, and that just broke my brain.
11:11:11 <imode> I am all the hype.
11:21:10 <rain1> i don't think any of that is true
11:21:14 <rain1> have you tried this out in practice
11:23:42 <imode> justification for 1: a wang tiling is essentially a historical graph for any arbitrary cellular automaton or turing machine. along the Y axis is your history, along the X axis is your "tape", or your space. if you just keep a copy of the "most recent" piece of history, you can restrict yourself to one dimension.
11:24:44 <imode> justification for 2: there exist encodings of combinatory logic within the context of wang tiles, such that the tilings formed by those tiles encode transformations of CL terms. it's a proposed method to write useful programs for self-assembling DNA tiles.
11:27:34 <imode> result (and hypothesis): any system of combinators can be simulated as a 1D cellular automaton by encoding it as a set of wang tiles and discarding the history of the tiling formed by those tiles.
11:30:47 <imode> if I'm right and all those pieces fit together (I don't see why they wouldn't), then this kind of paves the way for a massively parallel reduction machine for combinatory logic, and thus may give a solid foundation in hardware for incredibly fast high level languages based on CL.
11:34:04 <imode> like, imagine you had a processor that just had a giant 1D array of parallel computing elements, each of which is just a glorified state machine. pre-load each element with the right FSM, provide the initial input (the CL expression you want to evaluate), and watch it run.
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11:49:28 <rain1> ok I see what you mean
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13:23:36 <int-e> In retrospect I should've gone to bed instead of playing with queue automata :)
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13:44:30 <HackEso> very exponential? ¯\(°_o)/¯
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14:38:04 <int-e> Is this something like (10^100)^n ?
14:44:09 <int-e> Meh, the two uses of "exponential"...
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14:45:01 <int-e> n^n = O(2^n^2) is EXP, but grows faster than any exponential function.
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14:59:25 <myname> isn't it just e^(n log n)? i can name a few exponential funktions that grow faster
15:00:04 <int-e> here's what I mean by "exponential function": f(n) = a * b^n for constants a, b.
15:01:03 <b_jonas> so... a very exponential function is an exponential function that grows faster than exponential functions?
15:01:59 <int-e> Complexity theorists mess this up because they close most their classes under polynomial time (or at least logspace) reductions.
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17:16:51 <HackEso> 76) <Gregor> I don't know that I've ever heard apocalypi described in terms of depth ...
17:19:08 <HackEso> 459) <Phantom_Hoover> I gave her the Noblesse Oblige rooms. <Phantom_Hoover> She was happy with them even when they were behind 2 locked doors and a floodgate and full of water.
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17:51:23 <HackEso> 958) <Phantom_Hoover> i don't think hitler made any bf derivatives
17:57:50 <int-e> oh it's an unexplored area of fiction
17:59:06 <b_jonas> int-e: maybe it's unexplored, maybe you just don't read far enough into the longer pornographic Hitler fanfiction pieces
17:59:28 <fungot> int-e: we have in fnord relationships, that co-operation, the committee recognised that the proposals also included the albert kennedy trust from the 1990s, and the time to be the one to which i can attest, is still part of the governments considerations, and the then secretary of state.
17:59:45 <fungot> int-e: the eu and, for too many, and the care of fnord peers, and the home secretary that the government would conduct a form, people end up in the same as the one the hon. and learned friend the minister for that, and i, and,
18:00:17 <b_jonas> my hon. and learned friend fungot is still in Brexit mode?
18:00:18 <fungot> b_jonas: the country is the second biggest in the uk. when i will be available. i have been a minister in the house, which is saving it some of those regulations, but when the government have
18:03:08 <b_jonas> second biggest in UK? that must be Scotland
18:04:06 <arseniiv> fungot: what are the other news?
18:04:07 <fungot> arseniiv: on the important question of constitutional and economic implications. it was the right hon. and hon. and right hon.
18:05:07 <arseniiv> fungot: all economy these days. Aren’t there something new in the field of prepromorphisms?
18:05:07 <fungot> arseniiv: what i have said, that the government introduced the new, tougher system under the education act 1996, the government actuarys report and john stevenson be members, including 150,000 acres, the entire way of thinking, the type that the hon. member the leave of the house,
18:06:42 <HackEso> albert kennedy trust? ¯\(°_o)/¯
18:07:19 <int-e> I would be surprised if prepromorphisms was even in fungot's vocabulary for this style. (Not sure about the irc style... it seems unlikely, but might just be there.)
18:07:19 <fungot> int-e: i do. we are to be fnord. i am right, that being speaker of the fnord
18:07:37 <int-e> Every style has expert knowledge on fnords though.
18:09:07 <arseniiv> do they have a category-theoretic style?
18:10:15 <arseniiv> or at least Oleg Kiselyov style maybe (hm but why him)
18:11:27 <fungot> arseniiv: to be as we all anticipate following a very few exceptional circumstances, i have to have some of the highest at 25,800. local government, local government, and working-age people, can be considerable, and the only people to have suffered fnord under the eu arrangements
18:11:56 <arseniiv> at least there is another fnord
18:14:35 <arseniiv> if somebody’s interested, the last OpenMPT version, 1.28, now supports all (printable, I think) ASCII chars in custom tunings’ note names, when using a custom font for the pattern editor
18:16:28 <arseniiv> (though there’s possibly a bug when rendering &, for me it displays as a color-inverted pipe currently)
18:17:18 <arseniiv> (but it seems it should be fixable easily if it’s really OpenMPT’s bug and not something with my font)
18:18:30 <b_jonas> arseniiv: that's appropriate. & is just a | with the inputs and output negated
18:21:41 <HackEso> 235) <oklopol> actually the first joke i thought elliott was making was that he's so small masturbation is gay pedophilia
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18:40:05 <int-e> hmmmm beautiful documentation: http://bach.istc.kobe-u.ac.jp/iSATLib/doc/iSATLibrary/ISatLibrary.html
18:41:15 <int-e> (I think this is just meta information, perhaps "list of classes", "list of interfaces"... the actual documentation (where present) seems to be in English... but still...
18:42:27 <int-e> It's a pity that it's written in Java though.
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18:46:52 <arseniiv> no encoding specified in html code :(
18:48:23 <arseniiv> for some reason the only cases a wrong encoding is detected the last decade or so is for Japanese webpages only
18:49:52 <int-e> arseniiv: hmm, nor in the HTTP headers
18:51:22 <b_jonas> arseniiv: are you sure it's wrong encoding detected, as opposed to text snippets in multiple encodings mixed into the same HTML?
18:53:36 <b_jonas> because mixed or corrupt encoded text is annoyingly common
18:54:34 <arseniiv> I don’t want to overgeneralize but these Japanese encodings are… I mean, why do they seem to not care to indicate them each time, it should just be a bad luck
18:54:34 <arseniiv> b_jonas: maybe, but if I select “Japanese” in autodetect encoding menu in Firefox, it goes normal, Japanese + English. Originally this time it was detected as a Cyrillic mess (+ English)
18:55:06 <b_jonas> arseniiv: yes, it is worse in japanese
18:55:48 <arseniiv> so maybe this is one encoding all the way, just as it’s not specified the browser thinks it should better parse all text with settings for my default languages
18:58:47 <int-e> actually... my browser does misidentify the encoding as well
18:59:34 <arseniiv> b_jonas: a pity, really. I mean, there’s possible a ton of pages in Win-1251 with no encoding maybe even in headers, and there should also even be that DOS encoding 866 or something somewhere, but I can’t easily see and usually don’t visit those kinds of pages — but what did they do to Javadoc to strip the encoding data, is it trivial at all, and if it’s not, why?.. (rhetoric)
19:00:59 <arseniiv> (Win-1251 and that DOS one are Cyrillic encodings, they should probably be preferred when autodetecting with my lang settings)
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19:41:42 <zzo38> In a C code will 'xy' equal ('x'*'\1\0'+'y'*'\0\1') even though 'xy' may be different by different computers?
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19:42:29 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't think that's promised. it's impl'n-defined behavior, so read the manual of your architecture or compiler.
19:43:18 <pikhq> zzo38: Well, that's a GCC extension anyways.
19:43:42 <pikhq> (multi-character char literals are not ISO C in the slightest)
19:44:28 <int-e> hmm, "implementation-defined"...
19:44:41 <int-e> all bets are off since compiler writers can't be trusted to be reasonable ;)
19:57:08 <zzo38> Do you like the program I made to use Glk with JavaScript? Later I had found a implementation of Glk in JavaScript (mine uses an implementation in C), although the API does not match, although I think that my API is look like better, in my opinion.
20:01:19 <zzo38> The "vm" mechanism in Node.js does not have a function to execute a code with a separate call stack.
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20:26:51 <int-e> https://www.eblong.com/zarf/glk/glk-spec-075.html ... fits one of zzo38's many interests (IF)
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20:40:17 <ais523> imode: re: implementing combinatory logic, most methods I've seen have the concepts of an S1 closure (i.e. S partially applied to 1 argument), an S2 closure (i.e. S partially applied to 2 arguments), and a K1 closure (i.e. K partially applied to 1 argument)
20:40:34 <ais523> you don't really need a general system, just those three types of closure specifically
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20:43:05 <b_jonas> yeah, that's the method http://www.madore.org/~david/programs/unlambda/ describes
20:43:16 <ais523> the simplest general system I know is the Underload-style system where things /start out/ as closures and just get escaped and unescaped
20:44:44 <ais523> (…) a * ^ are the important operations for an Underload-alike to behave like a combinator calculus
20:44:55 <ais523> : is sort-of irrelevant except that you need it for TCness
20:45:16 <ais523> you could replace it with some other operation (S serves this purpose in SK combinator calculus)
20:45:52 <ais523> and obviously, ~ ! S are hardly necessary (and were some of the first operations to be minimized out)
20:45:55 <imode> ais523: I figured as much. I've recently discovered a method of encoding CL terms and applications in wang tiles, and they appear to use a similar encoding to underload.
20:46:15 <zzo38> imode: What method is that?
20:46:36 <imode> am I permitted to post sci-hub links here?
20:47:02 <ais523> that'd come under Freenode rules, and I'm guessing no
20:47:04 <zzo38> I don't know, but you could post the doi perhaps
20:47:32 <ais523> you can post the name or a unique identifier of the paper and people would be able to find it their own way (e.g. many people here may have legitimate access to it)
20:48:06 <imode> I found a publically available PDF version: http://ceur-ws.org/Vol-1032/paper-01.pdf
20:49:45 <zzo38> Glk does not seems to have a style that is matching TAVERN's "Reverse" style. However, it is possible to determine if the story requires it or not, without trying to execute it.
20:52:17 <imode> by way of discarding all but the current bottom-most row in a tiling, CL reduction can look like a cellular automaton.
20:52:48 <imode> something akin to a smart shift register can reclaim the "dead space" used by applications.
20:56:21 <ais523> <imode> hm. now I'm curious... a CA/tiling that can generate its own backdrop. ← that reminds me of the 0E0P metacell in the Game of Life, although it isn't exactly the same thing
20:59:30 <ais523> massively parallel reduction algorithms for things like lambda calculus, combinatory logic, and Underload-alikes are pretty easy to express, the problem is "internal" infinite loops
21:00:16 <ais523> like, if you have something like "if (0) { } else { while(1); }" (except written functionally rather than imperatively), these parallel algorithms will be sending some of their threads to try to normalize the loop body
21:00:30 <ais523> so you need some way to kill computations from outside when they're no longer needed
21:01:36 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah, but ! being unncessary is kind of a surprise, because you know how the Mockingbird book has a whole chapter on how discarding is necessary
21:02:18 <shachaf> I'm still looking for that thing which is somewhere between a macro and an inline function. I don't know if it makes sense or if any language has it.
21:02:39 <ais523> b_jonas: I don't think the wiki has an article on bitbuckets yet
21:02:49 <ais523> but it's not normally too hard to maintain one
21:02:52 <imode> back. ais523: an implementation of CL in terms of a cellular automaton would still enable you to do that, but there's no "threading" going on.
21:03:42 <ais523> fwiw, this is one of the many problems underlying Feather, and probably the one I've put the most effort into
21:03:52 <ais523> I think this one is solvable, although some of the others aren't
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21:07:04 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah, the trick is probably that Mockingbird doesn't claim that you can't get Turing-completeness without discard. all it claims is that you can't get discarding combinators from non-discarding ones, so you can't get all combinators without one.
21:07:27 <b_jonas> and that's what you found in Underload too: you can't get discard from the other primitives, instead you simulate it
21:08:17 <b_jonas> sure, they're not really equivalent
21:08:21 <b_jonas> Underload is a bit more powerful
21:10:14 <ais523> now I'm wondering what an Underload→combinators compilation looks like
21:10:29 <ais523> (the other way is fairly easy)
21:10:43 <ais523> I think you might have to write a full interpreter including a Church-encoded stack
21:10:44 <b_jonas> you'll probably have a linked list stack for that, plus optimize the top elements whenever you can resolve them at compile time
21:11:09 <ais523> because Underload freely lets you write unbalanced loops
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21:22:37 <imode> are wang tiles generalizable to arbitrary graphs with a color requirement and out degree?
21:23:31 <imode> I guess it would just be degree.
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22:01:03 <ais523> I'd expect it to have to be infinite graphs (although finite Wang tiles could potentially be interesting for things like SAT-solving), but apart from that they generalise pretty simply
22:01:43 <ais523> one issue is that the square grid that's normally used isn't quite a graph, because the edges at each point have identities (you can't permute them arbitrarily, e.g. you can't connect the N, E, S, W sides of the tile to the N, S, E, W adjacent squares respectively)
22:07:23 <int-e> ais523: do you know anything about #SAT? I'm wondering whether https://github.com/marcthurley/sharpSAT is still state of the art.
22:08:28 <ais523> no, I'm not very up to date with SAT solvers
22:08:38 <int-e> http://beyondnp.org/pages/solvers/model-counters-exact/ had an overview.
22:09:03 <int-e> It's comparatively easy for SAT, because of the SAT competitions.
22:09:27 <ais523> also the name #SAT reminds me of complexity classes like #P
22:09:31 <int-e> But #SAT is not quite the same, the tradeoffs are quite different.
22:09:50 <int-e> (One thing I've learned is that #SAT is often called "model counting" in the literature)
22:09:51 <ais523> ah right, it /is/ in fact the defining problem of #P
22:10:13 <ais523> hmm, now I'm confused, maybe this is what you were talking about in the first place
22:10:25 <int-e> But never mind then, it's just something that could have been in your area of interest. :)
22:11:06 <ais523> it's the sort of thing that I'm broadly interested in despite not knowing much about
22:12:51 <b_jonas> the wafer grid means exact count, right?
22:13:10 <ais523> so #SAT is "how many ways are there to solve this boolean satisfaction problem?"
22:13:16 <b_jonas> it would be a screwdriver head with a plus-shaped groove for parity
22:13:52 <ais523> \oplus, as they say in LaTeX
22:14:41 <int-e> I'd *expect* that finding the parity of the number of solutions is essentially as hard as counting them, but how would one go about proving or refuting such a claim?
22:15:07 <b_jonas> int-e: you refute it by making determinant-signed counting easier
22:15:47 <b_jonas> create matrix whose permanent is the count, then observe that the determinant has the same parity as the permanent,
22:15:52 <b_jonas> and that you can solve the determinant fast
22:16:17 <int-e> b_jonas: I know about permanents, but that just means that this is not a hard problem for parity-#SAT.
22:16:36 <b_jonas> int-e: that's for #P versus (+)P
22:16:47 <b_jonas> I've no clue about #SAT versus (+)SAT
22:16:59 <ais523> there are some problems which obviously have an even number of solutions, but you can't easily determine how many there are
22:17:18 <ais523> e.g. via exploiting a symmetry of the problem
22:17:35 <b_jonas> ais523: or just adding a 2-valued variable that takes place in no constraint
22:17:49 <b_jonas> we're concerned about the hardest problems
22:18:21 <b_jonas> it doesn't matter if one specific input behaves differently
22:19:40 <int-e> Ah, permanent is #P-complete. Hmm hmm. I should find a proof.
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22:23:42 <b_jonas> int-e: yeah, it's so long after Euler, because for a very long time, nobody rediscovered complexity theory and SAT and Cook-Levin
22:25:18 <int-e> (It's not clear, a priori, that such a reduction has to preserve the parity.)
22:31:12 <imode> ais523: interesting, what would a generalization of wang tiles be then?
22:33:04 <ais523> the most direct would be generalizations to arbitrary tilings
22:33:13 <ais523> BIIA? is more of a special case than a generalization
22:33:32 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah, it works either way
22:34:08 <b_jonas> you can simulate BIIA with Wang tiles, one tile per character cell, or backwards, Wang tiles with BIIA, each BIIA tile roughly same sized square shaped with different edges
22:34:22 <b_jonas> I think of it the latter way
22:34:25 <ais523> right, they can each implement the other fairly directly
22:35:34 <imode> something _like_ wang tilings over general topologies are what I'm kind of wondering about. I think something like port graphs have something to say about this...
22:35:55 <imode> tilings rely on a background "plane" to do their thing. what happens if you get rid of that.
22:36:12 <ais523> now you've got me thinking about Wang Penrose tiles
22:36:57 <b_jonas> ais523: so different grid, only it's not quite a "grid"?
22:37:40 <imode> wang tiles but the arity requirements can vary per tile.
22:45:50 <int-e> you can also tile the hyperbolic plane
22:46:08 <ais523> right, tilings do generalize to non-Euclidean topologies
22:46:28 <ais523> does the elliptic plane have infinite tilings? I'd expect them to all be finite
22:46:44 <ais523> err, uniform tilings, that is
22:46:56 <ais523> obviously you can create a non-uniform infinite tiling just by drawing lines at random
22:47:12 <ais523> although it wouldn't be well-defined
22:47:23 <int-e> http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/moebius.html - spot the heptagons :)
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22:48:46 <int-e> (I could make a version that has 4 regular pentagons meet at every vertex, hmm. Maybe some other time.)
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22:53:21 <b_jonas> int-e: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Order-4_pentagonal_tiling ?
22:53:49 <int-e> Non-Euclidean geometries are awkward though in that translations generate rotations.
22:55:35 <b_jonas> can you make a better drawing of what I'm trying to show on http://math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/randvoronoi.html ?
22:57:58 <ais523> int-e: I happen to be listening to the soundtrack to HyperRogue at the moment, and that + the font in the title + the hyperbolic geometry in the link left me somewhat confused for a moment
23:00:29 <b_jonas> Ruxor also has a web javascript thingy for showing a kind of Penrose aperiodic tiling too somewhere
23:00:56 <int-e> Hmm, I'm lost... font in the title?
23:01:16 <ais523> the font my browser uses to render the title on the page is the same font HyperRogue happens to use for all its in-game text, including titles
23:01:38 <b_jonas> yeah, http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2018-04-24.2512.html
23:02:11 <b_jonas> ais523: title on which page? my page? my page doesn't set the font, it leaves it as the client default
23:02:33 <int-e> my page doesn't set a font either. http://roguetemple.com/z/hyper/ has an image in the headline.
23:02:41 <ais523> b_jonas: the page int-e linked
23:02:58 <ais523> I think my browser is probably set to use the same font as HyperRogue for titles if no font is specified by coincidence
23:03:14 <b_jonas> hmm, let me check. I usually have font overrides disabled, so I don't see original fonts on webpages
23:03:23 <b_jonas> font changes on webpages are abused more often than they're used well
23:03:30 <ais523> I think it is, specifically, DejaVu Sans
23:03:35 <b_jonas> and when they're used well, that's because of limitations of web infrastructure
23:04:35 <int-e> DejaVu Serif here (I may have selecte "serif" as a standard somewhere)
23:04:49 <ais523> I think it might be interesting to see what the Web would look like if sites had no method of forcing layout at all
23:04:54 <ais523> just semantic tags and the browser chooses layout
23:04:54 <b_jonas> wait, int-e.eu ? is this a new domain?
23:05:12 <ais523> but it's not possible, people will always try to find a way to force layout
23:05:14 <b_jonas> dunno, I don't recall seeing it
23:06:03 <int-e> Well, there's not all that much there. But it should appear in the logs. I've had it for some years.
23:06:29 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah. you can't have fancy scripting and images and canvases but no fonts. that'd just lead to webpages emulating fonts the slow way.
23:06:45 <ais523> people used <table> to force layout back before CSS was widespread…
23:07:01 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, and table is still very useful, because CSS gets complicated
23:07:07 <int-e> Almost 6 years by now.
23:07:19 <b_jonas> before flex were supported, we definitely needed tables to do some sorts of layout on the web
23:07:23 <ais523> b_jonas: not for layout, please don't do that as it makes it very hard for end users to make styling tweaks
23:07:23 <b_jonas> no matter what the CSS guys said
23:07:31 <b_jonas> and I think even now with flex supported, tables might still be useful
23:07:36 <ais523> and for screen readers and the like to understand the page
23:07:39 <b_jonas> but I could be wrong in that, I don't yet understand how the heck flex works
23:07:53 <b_jonas> ais523: but some layouts are just impossible to write without tables
23:07:55 <ais523> CSS flex is missing lots of features I'd like to use, but those features generally aren't possible with tables either
23:09:33 <zzo38> I think that not only fonts, but also fancy images, scripts, canvas, and layout are also abused much. Forcing layout (and perhaps also fonts) are probably more useful for paged media than continuous anyways, I should think (but even for paged media the user may wish to override them).
23:09:45 <ais523> there's a reason the bottom-right corner of The Waterfall Model Online isn't used for anything, for example
23:10:02 <zzo38> I have font overrides disabled on my web browser, although I would want to enable font overrides for SVG and PDF but disabled for HTML; but, it doesn't seems to do that.
23:10:23 <ais523> (it has a few abuses of CSS Flex to automatically adapt to small screens, but the effects that that has on z-order makes that area unusable in a large-screen layout without making it show up on top of other text in a small-screen layout)
23:10:45 <b_jonas> zzo38: also overlapping stuff, truncating stuff, and line-height. seriously, line-height! have you EVER seen an actually good use of line-height in a webpage, as opposed to in a non-HTML printed document?
23:11:23 <ais523> one thing I dislike is the way that styles are seen as something for the site to provide, rather than something for the user to provide
23:11:33 <ais523> but sites are forced into adding at least minimal styling because most default stylesheets are terrible
23:11:39 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah, and CSS conditionals just aren't powerful enough yet to handle all the things you want for adapting to different heigths
23:11:46 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, although with suitable extensions the user can provide.
23:12:14 <b_jonas> also many webpages abuse adapting to different screen sizes by changing their webpage on small sizes to hide important interface elements
23:12:17 <b_jonas> I have ranted about that, right?
23:12:41 <b_jonas> about that webpage that hides the password change option unless you view it in a wide browser window
23:13:06 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, that is true, too. When I design webpages there usually is no or minimal CSS, and rarely any images, but I use the accesskey attribute more often. Scripts are rare except for stuff which is used optionally (such as the MD5 calculation on my database of Magic: the Gathering cards; you can just as well use a different MD5 implementation if you want an account, too).
23:13:39 <zzo38> I rarely use CSS except to override the CSS to webpages that already have CSS. For webpages that do not have CSS it is rare to need to add any.
23:15:30 <zzo38> Tables are useful for making a table or grid of data.
23:15:42 <b_jonas> what I'd still like to find out is how to add both mathml and legacy html for non-mathml-capable browsers in a sane way
23:15:55 <b_jonas> why doesn't mathml has a built-in way to add fallbacks, like img and script do?
23:16:20 <b_jonas> I hate whoever designed them without a fallback
23:16:27 <b_jonas> makes the whole thing worthless
23:16:28 <int-e> b_jonas: Not sure whether those images can be improved. One thing that might be interesting to exhibit difference is to choose the color based on the area of each polyhedron... and perhaps the number of vertices.
23:16:58 <b_jonas> int-e: they could be improved by rendering them more precisely and at a larger area. only my code is very simple and too slow to do that.
23:17:05 <b_jonas> it wouldn't be hard to compute it properly
23:17:17 <int-e> Oh are you brutally computing nearest neighbours?
23:17:28 <b_jonas> but yes, choosing color well in some way is also a hard problem
23:18:05 <int-e> b_jonas: Sorry that may have come across as far more judgemental than it should be... I'd probably do the same.
23:18:16 <b_jonas> well, it's a good first pass to check how it works
23:18:26 <b_jonas> but then I could optimize it if I spent some time on it
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23:19:10 * int-e isn't really into computational geometry.
23:20:31 <int-e> But actually... you can estimate the area based on pixels. Counting corners is harder :)
23:21:11 <b_jonas> I don't think you should color just according to number of corners or area. You could compute it, but I don't think that's the output I want.
23:23:51 <int-e> the idea is that in 2D you tend to have clusters of several small polygons, while in higher dimensions you actually get isolated small polygons much more frequently.
23:24:19 <int-e> And that's something that may become visible when coloring by area. I may also be completely wrong.
23:24:58 <b_jonas> int-e: yeah, but I'd prefer not to have adjacent areas with a similar color
23:25:10 <b_jonas> my random coloring fails that
23:27:54 <int-e> Ideally it should be a vector graphic and then one could actually draw edges...
23:28:19 <int-e> But I'd be too lazy to actually do it.
23:32:42 <b_jonas> int-e: you coudl do it, but you needn't. you can just optimize the pixel graphics properly.
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23:57:19 <int-e> b_jonas: So the 1979 paper (Valiant, "The complexity of computing the permanent") is inconclusive about the relation between (+)SAT and #SAT. The reduction to permanent multiplies the number of solutions by some 4^e where e = Theta(|F|), F being the input which is a formula in CNF with no unit clauses.
00:10:56 <imode> computing by self assembly is my new thing to get excited about.
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00:26:22 <imode> what is considered more fundamental: uniform spaces or arbitrary spaces?
00:27:12 <imode> arbitrary graphs vs. lattices, I suppose.
00:29:16 <imode> part of me says that grids and spaces are more fundamental, but part of me says that arbitrary graphs can express arbitrary topologies, and that includes grids and spaces.
00:30:22 <imode> been leaning more towards the former, because any graph needs to be embedded in something to have any kind of meaning.
00:30:41 <imode> so your first choice of space has to be something like uniform 2D or 3D or 1D space.
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01:22:37 <int-e> Okay, people don't seem to believe that ⊕P is hard, and have some evidence to the contrary. "P^⊕P is not known to even contain NP." ""there is a relativized universe where P = ⊕P ≠ NP = PP = EXPTIME" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parity_P
01:23:10 <int-e> And I learned about Toda's theorem. Fun stuff.
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02:05:06 <oerjan> int-e: i don't think they believe it's actually in P, as that would imply PH in BPP by the other toda's theorem fact mentioned
02:06:45 <int-e> No, but they do seem to believe that it's easier than #P.
02:12:38 <int-e> But actually it's quite hard to find anything tangible when it comes to relating ⊕P and #P.
02:18:08 <int-e> "⊕P contains the graph isomorphism problem" is obviously relevant.
02:20:14 <int-e> oerjan: did you see http://paste.debian.net/1057754/ ?
02:21:01 <int-e> (SK combinatory logic as a queue automaton... discussion from last night... morning... whatever)
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02:31:09 <b_jonas> int-e: no, it's not relevant. graph isomorphism is probably in P
02:31:23 <int-e> b_jonas: it is relevant because we don't know that yet
02:31:55 <int-e> b_jonas: so in particular there is no parity-preserving polynomial time reduction from #SAT to permanents.
02:32:12 <b_jonas> hmm, I guess that does make it relevant
02:40:08 <oerjan> int-e: shouldn't line 47 have a ` at the beginning of the inserted string?
02:41:46 <int-e> oerjan: nope, 3 has only 2 consumed `.
02:42:02 <int-e> oerjan: an evil trick, I'll admit.
02:42:23 <int-e> oerjan: note that line 41 doesn't erase the `
02:44:16 <lambdabot> LOWI 290220Z AUTO VRB01KT 9999 FEW090 M04/M05 Q1031
02:47:54 <b_jonas> learn The cold never bothered me anyway.
02:49:46 <HackEso> 902) <zzo38> I do study philosophy of much.
02:55:10 <HackEso> 203) * quintopia sits on gregor
02:55:21 <HackEso> Twinkle, twinkle, little star!
02:57:07 <HackEso> klein bottle//A Klein bottle is like a torus, but more insidious. Taneb tried to invent it, but got trapped inside.
02:57:12 <HackEso> tanebvention//Tanebventions include necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, metar, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, Italian, the grace period, the limerick, ruin, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths or tanebventions: foods. He never invents anything involving sex.
02:57:32 <HackEso> _46bit is a slightly-uptight public-schooled Brit. Taneb invented him.
02:57:44 <HackEso> dingbat//dingbat is a famous font designer for Microsoft.
02:57:52 <HackEso> b_jonas//b_jonas egy nagyon titokzatos személy. Hollétéről egyelőre nem ismertek.
02:58:04 <b_jonas> oh, that nonsense is still there
02:58:07 <HackEso> cookie//Hackego wants a cookie! *hangs*
02:58:11 <HackEso> urbandictionary//Urban Dictionary is an alternative, inferior wisdom database.
02:58:21 <HackEso> 694) <fizzie> fungot: Feeling scrambled after all that? <fungot> fizzie: but it's much like new zealand, in my stone-age country, we still like you even if you're only using the new fnord
02:58:56 * int-e ponders `slwd cookie//s/g/s/
02:59:19 * int-e ponders `slwd cookie//s/.g/Es/
02:59:42 <lambdabot> Promise me something, Pinky. Never breed.
02:59:56 <b_jonas> New Zealand was invented by Jules Verne, to give a starting location for the novel Deux ans des vacances.
02:59:58 <int-e> but perhaps that would make it historically incorrect
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03:00:38 <lambdabot> HER3 we 4Re, pINKy--aT +H3 da\/\/n 0f TIME!
03:00:44 <lambdabot> The game does not conclude until the woman with the eating disorder ululates.
03:01:27 <b_jonas> ``` allquotes | grep -Ei hackego
03:01:28 <HackEso> 32) <ehird> `translatefromto hu en Hogy hogy hogy ami kemeny <HackEgo> How hard is that \ 70) <ais523> let's put that in the HackEgo quotes files, just to completely mystify anyone who looks back along them in the future \ 305) <cpressey> `quote django <HackEgo> 352) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something <cpressey> thankfully only one \ 306) <monqy> `quote django <HackEgo> 352) <olsner> djan
03:02:01 <HackEso> 1/2:575) <Pavitra> That was me being *nice*. I could have made the request by word of mouth to my My Little Pony toys and it would count. \ 978) <elliott> prediction: kmc never comes back * kmc has joined #esoteric \ 436) <fungot> elliott: an old colonel lost, but a new brother gained. together they will ascend, each time you must be adventurin'. \ 1132) <Taneb> I may write a compliant interpreter just for the hell of it <FireFly> Taneb: stop complianing
03:02:04 <HackEso> 2/2: \ 810) <kmc> i love how allegedly wine can run all of these different programs but the only one i can actually run is starcraft <kmc> i think wine may secretly be a cleanroom reimplementation of starcraft
03:02:16 <b_jonas> ``` allquotes | grep -Ei lambdabot
03:02:17 <HackEso> 331) [after a long string of Lymia getting lambdabot to spit out huge, meaningless type signatures] <Lymia> I need to learn more Haskell... <CakeProphet> ..I need to get op privs. \ 409) <monqy> rest in peace lambdabot???? <ais523> monqy: it'll probably be back later <monqy> nap in peace \ 494) <CakeProphet> monqy: help how do I use lambdabot to send messages to people. [...around half an hour later...] <CakeProphet> @messages <lambdabot> quicksilver s
03:02:46 <HackEso> 352) <Phantom_Hoover> The wickedest man of all. <Phantom_Hoover> Surpassed only in wickedness by the wicked witches of the west and east. <copumpkin> you talking about me again? <Phantom_Hoover> Yes. <copumpkin> k
03:03:05 <HackEso> 306) <monqy> `quote django <HackEgo> 352) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something \ 407) <cpressey> `quote django <HackEgo> 352) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something <cpressey> thankfully only one <monqy> thankfully only two
03:03:11 <HackEso> 32) <ehird> `translatefromto hu en Hogy hogy hogy ami kemeny <HackEgo> How hard is that \ 70) <ais523> let's put that in the HackEgo quotes files, just to completely mystify anyone who looks back along them in the future \ 305) <cpressey> `quote django <HackEgo> 352) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something <cpressey> thankfully only one \ 306) <monqy> `quote django <HackEgo> 352) <olsner> djan
03:03:16 <int-e> embedding quote numbers in a quote is evil.
03:03:38 <int-e> b_jonas: except for the -i perhaps
03:03:50 <b_jonas> ``` allquotes | grep -Ei hackeso
03:03:51 <HackEso> 32) <ehird> `translatefromto hu en Hogy hogy hogy ami kemeny <HackEgo> How hard is that \ 70) <ais523> let's put that in the HackEgo quotes files, just to completely mystify anyone who looks back along them in the future \ 305) <cpressey> `quote django <HackEgo> 352) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something <cpressey> thankfully only one \ 306) <monqy> `quote django <HackEgo> 352) <olsner> djan
03:04:09 <int-e> I [sic] didn't know that.
03:04:28 <b_jonas> ``` allquotes | grep -Ei "hacke[^g]"
03:04:28 <HackEso> 852) <kmc> i bet a blog post complaining about ");});});" syntax in JavaScript and comparing it unfavorably to Lisp would get approximately one billion comments on hacker news <Bike> but at what cost? your very soul, kmc! \ 974) <kmc> i'm not actually competent at hacking things <elliott> ummmm kmc dont u mean `cracking' [tiny glider symbol with "hacker pride" written next to it in silkscreen] [head of a gnu] [tux penguin] <kmc> [face shoved in toile
03:05:42 <b_jonas> ``` allquotes | grep -Ei geordi
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03:44:48 <oerjan> int-e: i think you can merge S4 with one of S1 or S2
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03:48:22 <oerjan> actually K0 and K1 look mergeable
03:52:59 <int-e> mm. willl think about it after sleep
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04:34:31 <imode> there's a desirable attribute of a theory in physics called background independence. it's the idea that the theory is independent of any given "background", or shape or space. in general relativity, for example, the "shape" of space is indirect.
04:36:06 <imode> it's nice because it reduces your assumptions. rather than working with specific surfaces or manifolds, you have to worry very little about the overall structure of what the objects of your theory are riding on.
04:36:51 <imode> wang tiling, or similar space-oriented models of computing, is pretty simple, but relies on a fixed background, that of the 2D euclidean plane.
04:38:04 <imode> granted there can be 3D wang "cubes", as well as 1D wang "strings" of various computational powers, but they always assume some kind of regular rectangular lattice as the "backdrop".
04:40:00 <imode> turing machines also assume a "background": the space that contains the tape and the read/write head. for CL/LC, it's the space of the expression.
04:41:20 <imode> my question is, what does a "background-independent" model of computation look like? I posit that it looks something like a cellular automaton, and as a result I posit that wang tiles can be "freed" of their background.
04:43:32 <imode> my reasoning is that cellular automata only require a definition of "points in space" and the concept of a neighbor.
05:06:54 <esowiki> [[TOWCBL]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58875 * ShareMan * (+4530) Completed part of the page on TOWCBL
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09:55:59 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Superstrijder15 * New user account
10:00:06 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58876&oldid=58847 * Superstrijder15 * (+547) /* Introductions */
10:16:32 <esowiki> [[Talk:Gravity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58877&oldid=19914 * Superstrijder15 * (+756) /* Missing syntax info */ new section
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12:57:44 <HackEso> FORTRAN was a language in 1957, in which our noble, honourable ancestors wrote programs on punched cards and paper tape.
12:58:30 <b_jonas> fungot, did our hon. and learned ancestors wrote programs in FORTRAN on punch cards?
12:58:31 <fungot> b_jonas: i was the minister, the fear, the terror of the refugees, among the many attending the local gps and pharmacies free in the uk but, shockingly, the report uncovers the challenges, the government have
12:58:46 <HackEso> C is the language of��V�>WIד�.��Segmentation fault
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13:00:11 <int-e> Surely C is not that ba^%*@13Segmentation fault. Core dumped.
13:00:58 <b_jonas> is FORTRAN named from that because "FOR" is the keyword it's using for counter loops?
13:01:37 <int-e> I'm pretty sure "FOR" is for "FORMULA"
13:02:19 <int-e> because you could actually write x+y instead of LOAD x, ADD y
13:08:51 <fizzie> And the "TRAN" is at least said to be from "translation".
13:20:42 <b_jonas> sure, it translates counter loops to increment, compare, and jump underneath
13:21:41 <b_jonas> and sometimes decrease instead of increase, if it's a backwards counter loop
13:22:33 <esowiki> [[Gravity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58878&oldid=26089 * Salpynx * (+30) /* External resources */ update specification link to archived version
13:23:10 <int-e> b_jonas: I'm afraid you're not absurd enough to be funny and your etymology is almost certainly wrong.
13:24:16 <b_jonas> it has nothing to do with the name "FORTRAN", I just figured that "for" is another of those strange syntaxes that fortran and C popularized so much that everyone knows those counter loops are "for" loops even when they don't program fortran or C
13:24:55 <b_jonas> it's like equals signs for assignment: FORTRAN and C won over smalltalk and APL, so we use an equals sign, not a left arrow
13:25:06 <int-e> don't forget Pascal, BASIC, and Modula
13:25:22 <int-e> (regarding for loops)
13:25:41 <b_jonas> sure, Pascal and BASIC probably inherited those keywords from FORTRAN
13:26:05 <b_jonas> I think of FORTRAN and C as the more popular and influential languages, rather than BASIC and Pascal
13:26:14 <b_jonas> I know almost nothing about Modula
13:26:23 <int-e> who'd have thought that an early programming language could be so influential...
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13:27:40 <int-e> Modula is similar to Pascal but adds a module system. It came out too late; I believe that in practice Turbo Pascal's units have seen a lot more use.
13:29:43 <fizzie> I believe ALGOL (which is roughly contemporary with FORTRAN) was pretty influential too, and it also uses "for".
13:30:00 <int-e> for whatever reason
13:30:01 <fizzie> Sadly, the practice of using typeface (or underlining) to distinguish keywords didn't really get picked up from ALGOL.
13:30:28 <int-e> > nub "kjhalksdha"
13:30:49 <int-e> Most programmers like short words.
13:30:52 <fizzie> I used to have a book that told you how to mechanistically translate between FORTRAN 2, FORTRAN 4 and ALGOL 60, for a few different machines.
13:31:01 <fizzie> Picked it up from the discard pile of the university library.
13:31:27 <b_jonas> FORTRAN and C were influential about syntax. smalltalk and lisp were much less so. even when languages use dynamic allocation and object orientation with prototypes and overridable methods and instance variables like smalltalk, they barely take any of smalltalk's syntax.
13:32:03 <b_jonas> the vertical bars of rust originate from smalltalk through ruby, but note that smalltalk uses them for declaring local variables, but ruby and rust uses them for declaring formal parameters.
13:32:18 <b_jonas> and perhaps the "let" keyword comes from lisp
13:33:56 <b_jonas> fizzie: I did use underlining for some keywords when I made paper backups of some of my programs on the SHARP EL-5120 calculator. that calculator represents keywords as single bytes in the program, and the editor edits them as if they were single characters of up to 6 cells wide on the display
13:34:15 <b_jonas> keywords include "GOTO " and "exp "
13:35:09 <esowiki> [[Talk:Gravity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58879&oldid=58877 * Salpynx * (+489) /* Missing syntax info */ check out the updated resources section
13:38:10 <b_jonas> and of course C popularized the & and | for bitwise and logical operators, even to languages like rust that don't use C precedence order
13:40:26 <b_jonas> also ^ and << and >> for bitwise xor and bitshifts respectively
14:01:26 <int-e> @tell oerjan update - 17 states now: http://paste.debian.net/1057901/
14:01:35 <int-e> @tell imode update - 17 states now: http://paste.debian.net/1057901/
14:01:46 <int-e> . o O ( @tell is not useful for spamming )
14:01:55 <b_jonas> it's allowed in 17 states, or forbidden in 17 states?
14:02:40 <b_jonas> and which state finally gave in? LA?
14:04:12 <int-e> now why doesn't that paste have syntax hilighting?
14:07:55 <HackEso> bezout's theorem:Bézout's theorem says that if a system of polynomial equations over the complexes has as many variables as equations, then in the general case the number of solutions it has is equal to the product of one less than the degrees of the polynomials. \ bézout's theorem:Bézout's theorem says that if a system of polynomial equations over the complexes has as many variables as equations, then in the general case the number of solutions it has
14:08:08 <HackEso> INCOMPREHENSIBLE? ¯\(°_o)/¯
14:08:20 <int-e> arseniiv: it's a MYSTERY
14:08:36 <fungot> int-e: there is a need, therefore, the more we will be accused of and held the world land speed record. he is to be enormously proud to be the only one, in the house,
14:08:37 <HackEso> fungot is our beloved channel mascot and voice of reason.
14:09:24 <b_jonas> hmm, have I also added one about
14:09:29 <HackEso> rademacher's theorem? ¯\(°_o)/¯
14:09:37 <b_jonas> I keep forgetting what it is
14:09:43 <b_jonas> but then I also keep forgetting what its name is
14:09:56 <b_jonas> luckily the wisdom database is searchable
14:09:58 <int-e> @google reidemeister moves
14:09:59 <lambdabot> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reidemeister_move
14:10:19 <int-e> wow the images at the top are atrocious
14:10:40 <arseniiv> dear fungot don’t you maybe know why I have almost no memory left when updating Win7 on VirtualBox and it’s nowhere to be indicated that it is VirtualBox’s processes that demand so much of it
14:10:41 <fungot> arseniiv: at the very least, the government get the short-term and that the issues of the most concern the minister that the government will
14:11:06 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl* youtube
14:11:12 <arseniiv> I can’t even open my beloved^W firefox now
14:12:09 <arseniiv> is youtube style interesting? what data does it use?
14:12:11 <fizzie> fungot: The government will what?
14:12:11 <fungot> fizzie: to my british partners and have undermined the ability of the government to
14:12:25 <b_jonas> arseniiv: try to open it with the --no-remote --ProfileManager parameters, or whatever the equivalent of they are for your version of firefox, since they keep changing command-line syntax
14:12:27 <fizzie> fungot: The government to WHAT? Why do you stop like that.
14:12:27 <fungot> fizzie: have the government made the decision, with the ability to make the public any knowledge.
14:12:52 <fizzie> arseniiv: It's not particularly good, it's based on semi-manually scraped comments from a handful of videos someone gave me.
14:13:07 <fizzie> arseniiv: From what I recall, it's mostly about plane crashes and maybe 9/11 conspiracy theories.
14:13:11 <fungot> Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments)
14:13:15 <fizzie> fungot: Steel beams, jet fuel.
14:13:15 <fungot> fizzie: i know is metal gear, but this was a ok movie about 30 minutes until the time this releases. i posted the same
14:13:26 <fizzie> Well, that's probably a different video.
14:13:57 <arseniiv> (I want my memory back, vile VirtualBox!)
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14:15:30 <ais523> now I'm trying to figure out what I'm being thanked for
14:15:35 <lambdabot> arseniiv said 5h 19m 22s ago: thank you!
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15:14:00 <ais523> a new IOCCC has just started, btw: mentioning it here because I know many #esoteric denizens are interested in obfuscated coding
15:14:16 <ais523> deadline is in March, so there's plenty of time to write submissions
15:16:18 -!- int-e has set topic: Welcome to the international corncob for esoteric programming language discussion, design, development and deployment! | 2019 IOCCC ends March 15th -- http://www.ioccc.org/2019/rules.txt | https://esolangs.org | logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf.
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15:26:18 <b_jonas> and yes, I'm interested. perhaps more so than in esoteric languages.
15:33:26 <ais523> Gregor won the IOCCC one year
15:33:34 <HackEso> cat: 'wisdom/footnote ': No such file or directory
15:33:35 <ais523> so this channel does have some success
15:33:49 <int-e> `` echo wisdom/footnote*
15:33:50 <HackEso> wisdom/footnote 1 wisdom/footnote 8
15:33:56 <HackEso> Isn't it fun reading through all the footnotes⁺?
15:35:00 <fizzie> The win was in the "Most surprisingly portable" category, which was nice.
15:36:53 <b_jonas> I don't get it. Guidelines say "| The reason for the time of day due to Erdős, an amazing mathematician / ! that at least one of the IOCCC judges had the pleasure of working with."
15:37:21 <b_jonas> what's the exclamation mark for, and how does the times of the day above connect to him?
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15:53:53 <b_jonas> there should be a pun in that entry, using the double meaning of "standard" between technology standards and the stuff that the small Flagbearer carries, and the double meaning of "target" between what you compile to and the M:tG technical meaning
15:54:32 <b_jonas> like, you port your code to target the standard if possible, or cast your spell to target the standard if possible
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15:56:34 <int-e> b_jonas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erd%C5%91s%E2%80%93Borwein_constant and https://primes.utm.edu/curios/page.php/160669.html are relevant for the 16:06:69.
16:07:00 <b_jonas> wait... guidelines also says "the speaker of your national pariliment". is that apparent typo deliberate?
16:07:20 <b_jonas> my hon. and learned friend, do you ever speak in your national pariliment?
16:07:31 <b_jonas> my hon. and learned friend fungot, do you ever speak in your national pariliment?
16:07:31 <fungot> b_jonas: i hope you die of god damn cancer you're so ignorant and rude and stupid. who taught you that.
16:15:56 <oren> 1 cup salted butter, 1/2 cup sugar, 2 cup flour.
16:16:08 <oren> leave butter to soften to room temperature then mix in sugar until homogenous. then sift in flour and mix again. form into a ball and cool in the fridge for 10 minutes, then roll to 1 cm thick and cut into cookies. bake 20 min at 325 degrees F, cool 10 min and bake again same thing.
16:19:04 <oren> shrtbred cookies
16:19:15 <b_jonas> "sift in flour"? seriously?
16:19:49 <oren> b_jonas: is that the correct verb for pouring the flour thru a sieve?
16:20:36 <oren> I think the point is to prevent the flour from clumping
16:20:45 <HackEso> Sift \ 3U \ Sorcery \ Draw three cards, then discard a card. \ ST-C, 9ED-C, 10E-C, A25-C \ \ Sift Through Sands \ 1UU \ Instant -- Arcane \ Draw two cards, then discard a card. \ If you've cast a spell named Peer Through Depths and a spell named Reach Through Mists this turn, you may search your library for a card named The Unspeakable, put it onto the battlefield, then shuffle your library. \ CHK-C, DDS-C \ \ Sifter Wurm \ 5GG \ Creature -- Wurm \ 7/7 \
16:25:14 <oren> This recipe is formed by taking some recipe from online and using only the ingredients we actually had namely butter, sugar, flour
16:47:45 <int-e> b_jonas: I've given up on the 8607 or 0.8607 or whatever the second time of day is.
16:49:03 <int-e> (0.8607 turns up in a PhD thesis on phase transitions in random graphs that cites Erdos, but that's not convincing.)
16:50:58 <int-e> though the exact expression looks impressive. https://edoc.hu-berlin.de/bitstream/handle/18452/16311/seierstad.pdf is that thesis.
17:02:12 -!- oerjan has joined.
17:03:49 <lambdabot> int-e said 3h 2m 22s ago: update - 17 states now: http://paste.debian.net/1057901/
17:09:24 <oerjan> int-e: -- &: skip over remainder of the queue and switch to @. <-- it could find a % first, couldn't it?
17:09:59 <oerjan> at least in the version i looked at first, it seemed like you might occasionally move one marker while there was still progress to made on a later one.
17:11:06 <int-e> oerjan: Right, the description is a bit inaccurate in that point.
17:11:37 <int-e> My excuse is that everything would still work and just be a bit slower with & % -> % &
17:12:30 <int-e> Oh the line numbers disappeared along with the syntax hilighting. That's inconvenient.
17:14:45 <int-e> Hah, it's your fault.
17:15:38 <oerjan> (i just used the link from your @tell)
17:15:44 <int-e> oerjan: http://paste.debian.net/1057920/ is the same with Ø replaced by Oe
17:16:13 <int-e> I find that ridiculous.
17:16:29 <HackEso> Your pal Ørjan is oerjan's good twin. He's banned in the IRC RFC for being an invalid character. Sometimes he publishes papers without noticing it.
17:25:52 <oerjan> ah i see you also noted # # was redundant, i was going to comment on that
17:26:06 <int-e> @tell imode http://paste.debian.net/1057921/ has syntax hilighting.
17:26:30 <int-e> yes. invariants are tricky :)
17:27:52 <int-e> Anyway, I'm fairly happy with it now.
17:28:14 <oerjan> (is there any change from *20 to *21)
17:28:34 <int-e> tweaking comments...
17:28:55 <int-e> I added to &: Optimization: switch to % when a % is encountered along the way.
17:29:09 <int-e> And I changed S2 to S1 in the description of D.
17:29:43 <int-e> Maybe I should use gist for this.
17:33:47 <esowiki> [[LolKek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58880&oldid=58855 * Pop MAXXXIM * (-2855) Replaced content with "LolKek - is modification Brainfuck"
17:34:51 <esowiki> [[LolKek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58881&oldid=58880 * Pop MAXXXIM * (+4)
17:39:50 -!- imode has joined.
17:45:42 <oerjan> int-e: i think in line 206-207 you can make the right sides 0 and 1 instead of @ and ` @
17:50:32 <oerjan> (but for 208 it's alas unknown whether to use 2 or 3)
17:53:32 <esowiki> [[LolKek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58882&oldid=58881 * Pop MAXXXIM * (+32)
17:59:09 <esowiki> [[Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58883&oldid=55671 * Pop MAXXXIM * (-3023) Replaced content with "Fuck This"
17:59:53 <esowiki> [[Talk:Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58884&oldid=57884 * Pop MAXXXIM * (-10319) Blanked the page
18:00:22 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58885&oldid=57033 * Pop MAXXXIM * (-2840) Blanked the page
18:00:47 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58886&oldid=57561 * Pop MAXXXIM * (-3142) Blanked the page
18:01:59 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58887&oldid=58669 * Pop MAXXXIM * (-37287) Blanked the page
18:04:01 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58888&oldid=58887 * Pop MAXXXIM * (+386)
18:05:06 <esowiki> [[Vrejvax]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58889&oldid=57384 * Pop MAXXXIM * (-1991) Replaced content with "'''V"
18:05:10 <b_jonas> wait, did that say [[Main Page]]?
18:05:59 <esowiki> [[Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58890&oldid=58883 * Pop MAXXXIM * (+3)
18:06:08 <int-e> They blanked their own page... and then they started this.
18:06:36 <int-e> I'm hoping oerjan or ais523 will revert all this, this is too much for a simple user.
18:07:18 <int-e> Who else is admin, fizzie maybe.
18:07:59 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58891&oldid=58888 * B jonas * (+36889) rv blanking rev to 07:21, 4 September 2018 by Rdebath
18:09:27 <esowiki> [[Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58892&oldid=58890 * B jonas * (+3020) rv two edits by MAXXXIM to rev 12:57, 13 June 2018 Ais523
18:10:13 <int-e> Hmm. was https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Brainfuck&diff=prev&oldid=58888 an attempt to undo things?
18:10:21 <esowiki> [[Talk:Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58893&oldid=58884 * B jonas * (+10319) rv blanking by Pop MAXXXIM to rev 16:46, 1 October 2018 Zzo38
18:11:29 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58894&oldid=58886 * B jonas * (+3142) rv blanking by Pop MAXXXIM to rev 23:18, 11 September 2018 B jonas
18:12:06 <imode> what in the world is going on?
18:12:24 <int-e> Somebody threw a temper tantrum on a wiki.
18:12:34 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58895&oldid=58885 * B jonas * (+2840) rv blanking by Pop MAXXXIM to rev 11:22, 25 July 2018 GDavid. yes it's very funny, now please stop.
18:13:37 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/block]] block * Oerjan * blocked [[User:Pop MAXXXIM]] with an expiration time of 1 week (account creation disabled): Inserting nonsense/gibberish into pages
18:14:02 <imode> also thanks for the followup with that queue automaton, int-e. :D
18:14:14 <int-e> It's interesting that it started with a reasonable edit to their own language page.
18:14:49 <esowiki> [[Vrejvax]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58896&oldid=58889 * B jonas * (+1991) rv blanking by Pop MAXXXIM to rev 06:40, 20 August 2018 Madk
18:15:02 <imode> are they a new user?
18:15:34 <int-e> Or, no... they blanked it first.
18:16:05 <int-e> 09:30, 23 December 2018 (diff | hist) . . (+168) . . Esolang:Introduce yourself (→Introductions)
18:16:48 <b_jonas> *inserting* nonsense/gibberish into pages
18:17:14 <oerjan> i didn't bother to check out too carefully what they'd actually done, so just picked a close reason
18:17:34 <imode> "Enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity."
18:17:51 <imode> never saw that before on the front page.. huh.
18:18:50 <oerjan> imode: someone came on this channel and said it (probably someone who expect it to be about something else), we just had to use it :P
18:18:58 <HackEso> 240) <treederwright> enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity
18:20:23 <oerjan> b_jonas: this might be an argument against your opinion we should allow non-english pages >:P
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18:22:15 <b_jonas> and we should not allow bushy moustaches because Stalin had a moustache
18:24:36 <oerjan> (the tantrum was from the same guy who made that russian one)
18:25:16 <oerjan> and that one we actually _don't_ allow
18:25:42 <b_jonas> oerjan: I don't think Hitler's moustache was bushy though
18:25:55 <oerjan> anyway, thanks for helping reverting
18:29:11 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58897&oldid=58891 * Oerjan * (+12) Reinstate small clarification (because people keep missing the joke otherwise)
18:31:03 <b_jonas> "REINSTATE" takes a pres participle, so that would be "REINSTATE SMALL CLARIFYING" I think
18:31:33 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/block]] reblock * Oerjan * changed block settings for [[User:Pop MAXXXIM]] with an expiration time of 18:13, 5 January 2019 (account creation disabled): Removing content from pages
18:32:09 <oerjan> b_jonas: i'm pretty sure you're wrong
18:33:03 <oerjan> oh it's an intercal joke
18:33:39 <oerjan> . o O ( fine, you got me )
18:33:56 <oerjan> also fixed the block reason
18:36:52 <HackEso> A flagpole is like a tadpole, but with a flag on top.
18:37:46 <oerjan> `le/rn standard//Here on this channel we ascribe to a higher standard. See flagpole.
18:37:48 <HackEso> Learned 'standard': Here on this channel we ascribe to a higher standard. See flagpole.
18:38:09 <HackEso> A flagpole is like a tadpole, but with a flag on top.
18:38:29 <HackEso> A tadpole is like a flagpole, but underwater, and also a tad shorter.
18:40:37 * oerjan notes in the logs fungot using non-parilimentary language
18:40:37 <fungot> oerjan: can't wait for may 24!! this was true: it wasn't radio controlled, there are very big audience for game turned movies.
18:40:56 <b_jonas> yeah, somebody switched it to youtube style
18:43:31 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: The standard does *not* involve adding every word b_jonas suggests, though).
19:01:55 -!- ais523 has joined.
19:03:49 <ais523> b_jonas: did you type out all those rv messages by hand?
19:04:10 <b_jonas> from the revision history page
19:04:18 <b_jonas> but there's only like seven of htem
19:04:31 <b_jonas> and most of them were on highly visible pages
19:04:33 <b_jonas> there aren't many of those
19:04:34 <ais523> thanks for the vandalism cleanup, anynway
19:04:58 <b_jonas> you can spot typing by hand from the inconsistent whitespace
19:08:54 <ais523> I was checking to see if it was feasible to give more people access to the rollback button, but probably not; it's something of a blunt instrument and can cause problems if new users use it without knowing what it does
19:09:13 <ais523> (given that throwing a rollback at someone is effectively a method of accusing them of vandalism)
19:09:13 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: sorry for my connection).
19:09:26 -!- ais523 has joined.
19:09:58 <ais523> and esolangs.org doesn't have settings allowing rollback to be enabled for individual people (without making them admins)
19:10:16 <ais523> the undo button will produce an automated message saying where the rewind is going to, that's available to everyone
19:10:23 <b_jonas> I don't need a rollback button. I can save an old revision, or, if there's another revision on top, use diff3 to unmerge the edits I want to undo
19:10:28 <ais523> but it's not as convenient for vandalism cleanup
19:10:58 <ais523> right; admins have a rollback button basically everywhere, whenever we look at an edit there's a rollback button besides it, which reverts all the changes made in a row by the user in question to the individual page
19:11:05 <ais523> and there's no confirmation or anything, it just happens when we click it
19:11:15 <ais523> it's basically for situations where we need to do reverts really quickly
19:11:36 <b_jonas> yeah, that's not very typical on esolangs.org
19:12:21 <ais523> it's useful when spambots turn up
19:12:29 <ais523> although the current anti-spam measures seem to be holding
19:12:40 <ais523> if you've ever needed to undo a thousand spam edits…
19:13:34 <ais523> although nowadays we have tools such as "revert every edit this user has ever performed, and delete every page that they created" (that one /does/ have a confirm :-D)
19:13:42 <b_jonas> I shouldn't be trusted with it
19:13:52 <b_jonas> you already have enoguh admins
19:16:01 <ais523> on a different subject, "sift in flour" is correct but confusing, there's no separable verb "sift in", rather the "sift" (i.e. "separate using a sieve") and "in" (i.e. "place into") are being combined via eliding the words between, the meaning is like "sift the flour, placing the sifted flour into it" (where the thing you're placing the flour into has been elided too)
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19:28:57 <b_jonas> it's not the phrasing I find strange, I just thought the whole notion of sifting flour was mostly obsolete for home use, like that people did that only back when they couldn't just buy processed food wrapped in plastic packaging from shops, and had to mix all dough by hand-stirring
19:29:33 <b_jonas> If I want to mix margarine and suger and flour, I don't sift it
19:29:49 <imode> I guess it's meant for those in more humid climates where moisture can clump flour together.
19:29:57 <imode> or just improperly stored flour in general.
19:30:51 <b_jonas> guess that happened back when flour didn't come in one kilogram (or sometimes somewhat bigger) packages wrapped in paper, and once you open one, you put it in a plastic vessel that closes almost airtightly
19:31:11 <imode> you also have to consider the case of the "flour drawer".
19:31:33 <b_jonas> people just took a ceramic bowl and asked the shopkeeper in a non-self-serving shop to measure them some flour on a huge weight scale
19:32:07 <b_jonas> those things still existed in my early childhood
19:32:21 <imode> they still exist at my relatives' lmao.
19:32:45 <b_jonas> oh, and the grid of the sieve was made of non-synthetic strands
19:33:14 <b_jonas> yet people still made all sorts of food, even ones that involved methods that were really hard without modern conveniences
19:33:32 <b_jonas> I still occasionally read that sort of stuff from old cookbooks, and see remnants of such instruments
19:33:57 <imode> there's a particular channel, I believe it's called the Townsends, where they look at old cookery dating waaaaaaaaaaay back.
19:34:08 <imode> like to the point where whisks were just a bundle of twigs tied together to agitate things.
19:34:16 <imode> (this is on YouTube.)
19:35:35 <imode> agitate, incorporate, etc.
19:42:11 <b_jonas> although of course today people also cook food in ways that require a ton of effort even with modern conveniences
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20:15:30 <rain1> I'm curious about eForth
20:15:39 <ais523> I don't know much about eForth
20:15:45 <ais523> but I'm also curious about Forths in general
20:15:47 <rain1> https://forthworks.com/forth/papers/compare.pdf
20:15:53 <rain1> it requires the fewest primitives
20:16:05 <esowiki> [[Talk:Gravity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58898&oldid=58879 * Superstrijder15 * (+150) /* Missing syntax info */
20:16:25 <rain1> https://github.com/tehologist/forthkit/blob/master/forth.c i found an implementation here
20:16:57 <b_jonas> be careful with expressions like "the fewest" here
20:18:03 <ais523> hmm, I don't think Underload translates directly to Forth, does it?
20:18:06 <ais523> the missing primitive is ^
20:18:29 <ais523> but I'd expect a minimized Forth to be somewhere around four primitives, maybe three or five
20:22:19 <rain1> http://pygmy.utoh.org/3ins4th.html
20:27:31 <b_jonas> ais523: almost certainly not. underload needs closures or dynamic memory allocation
20:27:52 <ais523> b_jonas: not if you omit * and a
20:27:58 <b_jonas> ais523: you'd better try to translate something like br... something using a half-infinite tape
20:28:10 <ais523> I'm thinking of minimized Underload here
20:28:27 <b_jonas> or perhaps two stacks, since forth has a separate call stack and data stack
20:29:03 <b_jonas> perhaps, but even then you have to deal with ()
20:29:16 <ais523> Forth already has dup, swap, drop; and you can emulate Underload's (…) via defining a word that pushes a specified sequence onto the stack, then using that word to represent the entire (…) construct
20:29:28 <ais523> kind-of like Splinter but with a stack
20:29:59 <b_jonas> but does forth let you push a pointer to a function to the data stack? or do you emulate that by a jump table?
20:30:17 <b_jonas> I guess forth probably does allow directly manipulating forth function pointesr
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20:30:38 <ais523> this is why I said ^ is missing
20:31:09 <b_jonas> there's an IOCCC entry with a small forth interpreter by the way
20:31:18 <ais523> I don't know Forth well enough to know whether there's, e.g., some trick you could do using immediate mode
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20:31:56 <b_jonas> unrelated, have you ever found a heuristic supporting that M:tG without Rotlung Reanimator is still TC? it probably is, but do we have a concrete suspicion on why?
20:32:11 <b_jonas> I guess I must have asked that several times already
20:34:12 <b_jonas> ais523: anyway, you could just emulate two stacks and a finite control state by making some global variables, storing one stack on the call stack and one on the data stack, and temporarily putting the finite machine state to a global variable when you return to pop an entry from the call stack so that it knows where to continue from
20:34:27 <b_jonas> lets you translate any two-stack machine or one-tape TM
20:34:35 <b_jonas> but sure, there may be a shortcut if you know forth well
20:34:50 <b_jonas> and of course if you do that in practice, you may run out of space on one of the two stacks
20:35:12 <ais523> b_jonas: the The Waterfall Model construction uses Hungry Lynx for the /logic/, so Rotlung Reanimator is probably replaceable with something
20:35:33 <HackEso> Hungry Lynx \ 1G \ Creature -- Cat \ 2/2 \ Cats you control have protection from Rats. (They can't be blocked, targeted, or dealt damage by Rats.) \ At the beginning of your end step, target opponent creates a 1/1 black Rat creature token with deathtouch. \ Whenever a Rat dies, put a +1/+1 counter on each Cat you control. \ C17-R
20:35:40 <b_jonas> that's the card from the quote
20:35:44 <ais523> I was so surprised and excited when I saw Hungry Lynx was printed, it's as though someone inside Wizards had heard of the Turing machine project and decided to create the perfect card for it
20:36:28 <b_jonas> yeah. it's the third ability that really helps, the first one has been printed a few times already.
20:36:45 <ais523> if someone had asked me for the precise wording of a trigger that would fill in all the missing gaps, I would have said "Whenever a «creature type» you control «dies/enters the battlefield», put a +1/+1 counter on each «other creature type» you control"
20:36:54 <b_jonas> ok, thanks, that does answer my question
20:37:05 <ais523> so I was a little surprised to see it actually printed on a card
20:37:43 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: card-search: not found
20:37:49 <b_jonas> whatever is the command for that
20:37:52 <ais523> `card-by-name Boldwyr Intimidator
20:37:53 <HackEso> Boldwyr Intimidator \ 5RR \ Creature -- Giant Warrior \ 5/5 \ Cowards can't block Warriors. \ {R}: Target creature becomes a Coward until end of turn. \ {2}{R}: Target creature becomes a Warrior until end of turn. \ FUT-U, MOR-U, CNS-U, DDS-U
20:38:12 <HackEso> grep: bin/walcama: No such file or directory \ bin/card-by-name \ bin/random-card \ bin/scheme
20:38:19 <HackEso> Cowardice \ 3UU \ Enchantment \ Whenever a creature becomes the target of a spell or ability, return that creature to its owner's hand. (It won't be affected by the spell or ability.) \ MM-R, 8ED-R, 9ED-R
20:38:27 <HackEso> Cowardice \ 3UU \ Enchantment \ Whenever a creature becomes the target of a spell or ability, return that creature to its owner's hand. (It won't be affected by the spell or ability.) \ MM-R, 8ED-R, 9ED-R
20:39:13 <b_jonas> yeah, Boldwyr Imitator is the only one that mentions cowards, it seems
20:42:11 <b_jonas> I thought there were two cards, but in retrospect, the "Warrior" bit gives it away that it's in Morningtide (joke's on me, it's from Future Sight)
20:42:32 <ais523> it's in both apparently
20:42:39 <ais523> also conspiracy and a duel deck
20:42:52 <ais523> (conspiracy seems like a bit of a weird fit…)
20:44:11 <b_jonas> `card-by-name Assemble the Rank and Vile
20:44:12 <HackEso> Assemble the Rank and Vile \ Conspiracy \ Hidden agenda (Start the game with this conspiracy face down in the command zone and secretly choose a card name. You may turn this conspiracy face up any time and reveal that name.) \ Creatures you control with the chosen name have "When this creature dies, you may pay {B}. If you do, create a tapped 2/2 black Zombie creature token." \ CN2-C
20:44:32 <b_jonas> it's not the only card in conspiracy that does wierd programmable triggers :-)
20:45:01 <b_jonas> there's a whole theme of "choose a card name" and a trigger on that card name
20:45:23 <ais523> "you may pay" is the sort of condition we've been trying to avoid in the TC construction for M:tG
20:45:24 <b_jonas> easier than that Mirrodin block triggered staff
20:45:30 <ais523> because what if the player doesn't?
20:46:06 <b_jonas> and apparently we can't really use
20:46:12 <b_jonas> `card-by-name Spellweaver Helix
20:46:12 <HackEso> Spellweaver Helix \ 3 \ Artifact \ Imprint -- When Spellweaver Helix enters the battlefield, you may exile two target sorcery cards from a single graveyard. \ Whenever a player casts a card, if it has the same name as one of the cards exiled with Spellweaver Helix, you may copy the other. If you do, you may cast the copy without paying its mana cost. \ MRD-R
20:46:19 <b_jonas> either, because it triggers on a spell being cast
20:46:29 <b_jonas> which makes sense since they don't want even more easy infinite loops
20:46:48 <b_jonas> even back when they made the infamous Mirrodin, they already knew that
20:47:01 <b_jonas> so stuff like Kiki-Jiki loops rarely slipped through
20:47:32 <b_jonas> still, if an old card fits the theme, they may be more forgiving about that sort of stuff
20:48:47 <ais523> out of the accidental gamebreaking infinite loops, have /all/ of them been copy effects where the copy refreshes the ability of the original card to use the copy effect?
20:49:08 <b_jonas> there's been flicker effects
20:49:13 <ais523> kiki-jiki/splinter twin + pestermite/deceiver exarch is of that form, so is saheeli rai + felidar guardian
20:49:16 <b_jonas> where the flicker refreshes the ability
20:49:23 <ais523> yes, but the ability is a copy ability
20:49:54 <b_jonas> isn't there somethign with just flicker?
20:50:10 <b_jonas> flicker plus something that etb with counters and generates, I dunno, mana from it?
20:50:23 <ais523> in the flicker-based broken infinite loops I know, the flicker regenerates a copy effect that regenerates the flicker
20:50:32 <ais523> there are infinite loops without a copy in but they aren't broken
20:50:49 <ais523> things like kitchen finks + viscera seer + melira
20:51:08 <ais523> but that was actually pretty fair, and although it was played in a top Modern deck it isn't the reason the deck was good
20:52:05 <ais523> I guess one reason it's copy-based loops that tend to break things is that they normally only need two cards in the combo rather than three!
20:54:04 <ais523> there was also Half-Squirrel, Half-Pony but that wasn't in a tournament-legal set and got errata'd before it could break things (also it needed a third card to infinitely flicker)
20:54:15 <ais523> `card-by-name Half-Squirrel, Half-
20:54:15 <HackEso> Half-Squirrel, Half- \ Creature -- Squirrel \ -1/-0 \ Whenever a nontoken creature enters the battlefield, \ Augment {G} ({G}, Reveal this card from your hand: Combine it with target host. Augment only as a sorcery.) \ UST-U
20:54:21 <ais523> `card-by-name Ordinary Pony
20:54:22 <HackEso> Ordinary Pony \ 2W \ Host Creature -- Horse \ 2/3 \ When this creature enters the battlefield, you may exile target non-Horse creature you control that wasn't put onto the battlefield with this ability this turn, then return it to the battlefield under its owner's control. \ UST-C
20:58:34 <b_jonas> and some infinite loops are simply made impractical by the high mana cost of a piece, like that of Mikaeus, the Unhallowed plus Bloodied Ghost plus a free sac outlet
21:14:12 <ais523> well, the "more efficient win condition" I found for Omni-Tell while working on the TC proof contains a 27-mana combo
21:14:20 <ais523> but it has unlimited resources at that point, so the cost doesn't really matter
21:14:48 <b_jonas> for just starting an infinite loop, you don't that much mana
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22:05:31 <HackEso> 2018-12-29 22:05:31.418126946 +0000 UTC December 29 Saturday 2018-W52-6
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22:45:42 <arseniiv> does someone know what links are there between algebraic effects and extensible effects? (@tell me if you may, gtg)
22:45:46 <shachaf> supermegacomics.com is down?!
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22:47:21 <shachaf> arseniiv: Is extensible effects the one based on free monads?
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23:50:39 <imode> is there a process for converting a cellular automata with >2 states to something with only 2 states?
23:53:28 <b_jonas> imode: what are the other constraints, or how do you define cellular automatons
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23:55:20 <imode> assume a 2D grid, assume each cell in the grid can be in some state, assume cells can transition from one state to another, assume cells transition based on the states of their neighbors in some defined neighborhood (von neumann or moore).
23:55:49 <imode> convert a CA with cell states >2 into something with cell states = 2.
00:05:57 <b_jonas> in like each generation of the CA?
00:06:19 <int-e> encode cells into fixed length blocks such that beginning and end can be uniquely identified? (say, start with 11, then use 01 and 10 for a binary encoding, end with 00. It should be possible to do much better than that.)
00:06:55 <int-e> Then pick the neighbourhood such that from any bit you can see the full original neighbourhood of the cell. Then translate your rules.
00:08:08 <imode> that's what I figured. your rules just balloon to include identifying the larger assemblies of cells.
00:08:26 <imode> doing that in 2D, though.
00:09:44 <int-e> So you wrote. But the idea remains the same.
00:10:03 <imode> your spans turn into "glyphs".
00:10:40 <int-e> heh you can even do funny things where the grids aren't parallel
00:11:56 <b_jonas> sure, choose any two non-parallel integer vectors as periods, then choose any cells from each class to form an, um, how do chemist call it, "fundamental region"
00:13:24 <b_jonas> as long as the area isn't too small, obviously
00:15:01 <int-e> imode: imagine this: http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/grid.png
00:15:53 <int-e> oops, I messed up a line, fixed now.
00:16:40 <imode> oh! yeah over arbitrary tilings.
00:16:43 <imode> or lattices, rather.
00:17:08 <int-e> huh I messed up two lines. wow
00:17:48 <int-e> also I should've just used the 5 pixel cross which leads to a knight move based tiling
00:21:33 <b_jonas> int-e: oh, can you make a good illustration of the tilings by the two disconnected polyminos, each tiling the plane separately, made by removing an inner square from the 1x5 rectangle?
00:21:45 <b_jonas> those aren't translation tilings, so they're not really appropriate here
00:25:25 <HackEso> lrwxrwxrwx 1 1000 1000 10 Jul 8 2017 bin/walcama -> wälcåmä
00:25:45 <HackEso> ls: cannot access 'bin/wälcåmä': No such file or directory
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00:26:11 <HackEso> 11437:2018-03-03 <oerjän> rm bin/w\xc3\xa4lc\xc3\xa5m\xc3\xa4 \ 5972:2015-09-10 <b_jonäs> ` echo $\'#!/bin/sh\\nexec welcome "$@" | bin/en2sv\\n\' > bin/w\xc3\xa4lc\xc3\xa5m\xc3\xa4 \ 5969:2015-09-10 <b_jonäs> ` >bin/w\xc3\xa4lc\xc3\xa5m\xc3\xa4 echo $\'#!/bin/sh\\nexec welcome "$@" | sed "s/E/\xc3\x84/g;s/O/\xc3\x85/g;s/e/\xc3\xa4/g;s/o/\xc3\xa5/g"\\n\' \ 5968:2015-09-10 <b_jonäs> ` >bin/w\xc3\xa4lc\xc3\xa5m\xc3\xa4 echo $\'#!/bin/sh\\nwelcome | s
00:28:12 <b_jonas> yeah, that one was stupid. deserved the rm.
00:28:33 <shachaf> `` ls bin | shuf | head -n1
00:28:41 <HackEso> Binary file bin/binary matches
00:28:47 <HackEso> (.tenLAD ro tenFE no ciretose# yrt ,aciretose fo dnik rehto eht roF) .</gro.sgnalose//:sptth> :ikiw ruo tuo kcehc ,noitamrofni erom roF !tnemyolped dna ngised egaugnal gnimmargorp ciretose rof buh lanoitanretni eht ot emocleW
00:28:56 <HackEso> 9273:2016-10-13 <shachäf> ` mkx \'bin/Binary//echo "$@"\'; mkx \'bin/binary//Binary file bin/binary matches\'
00:29:43 <fizzie> I'm sure it made sense at the time.
00:30:15 <HackEso> #!/bin/dash \ f=$(find bin -ipath "bin/*$1*" -type f -print0 | shuf -z -n1); if [ -n "$f" ]; then echo -n "${f#bin/}//"; grep '' "$f"; else echo "That's not binary."; fi | rnooodl
00:30:22 <HackEso> thanks//#!/usr/bin/perl -CSDA \ $_ = (join " ", @ARGV) || `words`; s/^\s+|\s+$//g; print "Thanks, $_. "; if (/[aeiouyAEIOUY]/) { s/^[^aeiouyAEIOUY]*/Th/; } else { s/^./T/; } print "$_.";
00:30:39 <b_jonas> shachaf: a parody of a message grep sometimes gives if it believes (sometimes mistakenly) that you don't want to print a matching line from a non-text file
00:31:20 <HackEso> Thanks, randbin. Thandbin.
00:31:31 <HackEso> [1m[31mw[33mh[32ma[36mt[34m'[35ms[31m [33ma[32ml[36ml[34m [35mt[31mh[33mi[32ms[36m?[34m
00:32:11 <HackEso> airport-lookup//#! /usr/bin/env python \ \ import csv \ import sys \ \ if len(sys.argv) < 3: sys.stderr.write('usage: airport-lookup any|name|iata|icao key\n'); sys.exit(1) \ kind, q = sys.argv[1], ' '.join(sys.argv[2:]) \ \ fieldnames = dict(name=1, iata=4, icao=5) \ if kind == 'any': fields = [1, 4, 5] \ elif kind in fieldnames: fields = [fieldnames[kind]] \ else: sys.stderr.write('unknown search type: %s\n' % kind); sys.exit(1) \ \ def f(s): return
00:32:15 <HackEso> `^//[[ $# == 2 ]] || { echo "Usage: $0 n cmd" >&2; exit 2; }; for ((i=0; i < $1; i++)); do \` "$2"; done | sport
00:32:18 <HackEso> culprits//hoag "$@" | awk '{print substr($1,2,length($1)-2)}' | xargs -d'\n'
00:32:24 <shachaf> Wow, these are all useful.
00:32:26 <HackEso> autowelcome//[ "$1" == "on" ] && echo enabled > share/autowelcome_status; [ "$1" == "off" ] && echo disabled > share/autowelcome_status; echo "Autowelcome $(cat share/autowelcome_status)."
00:32:52 <HackEso> 6335:2015-11-28 <oerjän> ` sed -i \'s!autow!share/autow!g\' bin/autowelcome \ 6334:2015-11-28 <oerjän> revert \ 6333:2015-11-28 <oerjän> ` mv autowelcome_status share; sed -i \'s!autow!share/autow!\' bin/autowelcome \ 6164:2015-11-01 <tsweẗt> echo \'[ "$1" == "on" ] && echo enabled > autowelcome_status; [ "$1" == "off" ] && echo disabled > autowelcome_status; echo "Autowelcome $(cat autowelcome_status)."\' > bin/autowelcome \ 6103:2015-10-19 <Phant
00:33:15 <HackEso> rainbow//print_args_or_input "$@" | pikhqbow
00:33:28 <HackEso> echo-p//echo "$1"; [[ "$1" == */* ]] && mkdir -p "${1%/*}" 2>/dev/null
00:34:06 <HackEso> 8746:2016-07-05 <pikḧq> ` gcc -Os -s src/pikhqbow.c -o bin/pikhqbow \ 8744:2016-07-05 <pikḧq> ` gcc -Os -s src/pikhqbow.c -o bin/pikhqbow \ 8742:2016-07-05 <pikḧq> ` gcc src/pikhqbow.c -o bin/pikhqbow
00:40:09 <HackEso> list//date > share/conscripts; culprits share/conscripts | xargs -n 1 | awk '!x[$0]++' | xargs
00:40:30 <shachaf> `` culprits share/conscripts | xargs -n 1 | awk '!x[$0]++' | xargs
00:40:32 <HackEso> alercäh rdocöc quintopïa Zarutiän jeffl3̈5 BlueProtomän fizzïe hppavilion[1̈] Phantom_Hoovër int-̈e b_jonäs boil̈y a`a`a`a`jo7äs a`a`a`a`jo8äs a`a`a`a`jo3äs a`a`a`a`jo6äs a`a`a`a`jo5äs a`a`a`a`jo4äs a`a`a`a`jo2äs a`a`a`a`jo1äs a`a`a`a`jonas̈0 a`a`a`̈a lambdaböt chicken_jonäs mynam̈e
00:43:32 <fizzie> Huh, I didn't realize that's how list was implemented.
00:44:56 <b_jonas> fizzie: yeah, it's tricky. you can't just revert its effect.
00:46:57 <b_jonas> although of course one could edit bin/list to modify how it works and exclude a certain nick
00:49:37 <fizzie> It's also slightly unfair in that if someone does a canary-preserving mass-rm and you revert *that*, you end up on the conscript list.
00:50:22 <shachaf> fizzie: It's a shavention!
00:50:29 <shachaf> Since we don't have access to logs anymore.
00:50:43 <shachaf> fizzie: We can filter out mass-rms with scowrevs
00:50:47 <HackEso> hoag "$@" | awk '{print substr($1,2,length($1)-2)}' | xargs -d'\n'
00:50:50 <HackEso> hlnp --removed --template "{desc}\n" -- "$@"
00:50:54 <HackEso> scowrevs="$(/usr/bin/paste -sd'|' /hackenv/share/scowrevs)"; hg log -r "tip:0 & ! ($scowrevs)" "$@" | sed 's/\(\(^\| \)[<Itb][^ ]*\)\([^ ][^ ]\)/\1̈\3/'
00:51:02 <HackEso> 121:122 \ 194:196 \ 770:771 \ 1000:1001 \ 1493:1497 \ 2112:2114 \ 3341:3343 \ 4530:4531 \ 5136:5137 \ 5642:5643 \ 5894:5897 \ 8669:8678 \ 9070:9071 \ 9074:9075
00:51:02 <b_jonas> fizzie: I think you just don't end up on the list anymore no matter what edits you do, unless list is changed, because it lists names from oldest to newest edits, uniq, and I filled up the irc line
00:51:13 <shachaf> No, it's in reverse order.
00:51:24 <b_jonas> why don't anyone use hg -T ?
00:51:59 <shachaf> Because of your vandalism.
00:52:01 <b_jonas> so you can get on the list, but can scroll yourself off afterwards?
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00:52:09 <b_jonas> it got changed to reverse order afterwards?
00:52:42 <HackEso> if [[ "$1" =~ ^[0-9]+$ ]]; then \ rev="$(hg blame quotes | sed "$1{s/^ *//;s/:.*//;q};d")" \ if [[ -n "$rev" ]]; then \ hg log -r "$rev" -T "{desc}" \ else \ echo "$1: no such quote" \ fi \ else \ echo "usage: \`whoq N" \ fi
00:52:54 <b_jonas> I vandalized with a` names because I assumed it was sorted by name, in locale order in that default locale HackEso used to have
00:53:03 <b_jonas> it turns out it's not sorted by name
00:53:13 <HackEso> 1063) [on the name "Watson"] <fizzie> And not the IBM "AI"? <Bike> scare quotes eh <fizzie> I don't think it counts as a proper AI until it kills people.
00:56:28 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: gak: not found
00:56:46 <fizzie> Sounds like whoq isn't scowrevs-enabled maybe.
00:56:57 <fizzie> (Because that revert is 4531.)
00:58:15 <HackEso> 11594:2018-08-08 <fizzïe> fetch bin/whoq https://hack.esolangs.org/get/bin/whoq \ 11593:2018-08-08 <fizzïe> fetch bin/whoq https://hack.esolangs.org/get/bin/whoq \ 11592:2018-08-08 <fizzïe> ` chmod a+x bin/whoq \ 11591:2018-08-08 <fizzïe> fetch bin/whoq https://hack.esolangs.org/get/bin/whoq
00:58:23 <int-e> b_jonas: something like this? http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/grid2.png
00:58:44 <fizzie> If I made it, it definitely won't, because I'm really "out" when it comes to all these shaventions.
00:58:46 <b_jonas> int-e: hehe, little bridges
00:58:55 <shachaf> Hey, they aren't all shaventions.
00:59:10 <shachaf> Some of them are oerventions otherventions
00:59:17 <fizzie> Well, #esoventions in general.
00:59:28 <shachaf> If they're invented by multiple people, they're called interventions.
00:59:54 <b_jonas> interesting drawing, though it may look better if colored
00:59:59 <int-e> b_jonas: it's not quite what I want; ideally the two ends of the bridge should meld into the foundations without border
01:00:12 <fizzie> I really should finish making the logs accessible again, I was kinda-sorta working on that at one point but got distracted overengineering it.
01:00:24 <b_jonas> int-e: perhaps, but if you do that, it would look like the thing under it is cut
01:00:24 <shachaf> how about making the internet accessible twh
01:00:25 <int-e> b_jonas: But I don't know how to do that in xfig. :)
01:00:43 <b_jonas> this way it looks better, because the bridge looks like it's above the tile that's under it
01:00:43 <HackEso> Shaventions include: before/now/lastfiles, culprits, hog/{h,d}oag, le//rn, tmp/, mk/mkx, {s,p}led/sedlast, spore/spam/speek/sport/1/4/5, edit. Taneb did not invent them yet.
01:01:16 <b_jonas> I don't recall now if this is the easier or the harder one of the two tilings
01:01:30 <fizzie> Making some whitelisted parts of the internet accessible would've been part of the overengineered solution, since it was going to be based on talking to an API on the logs viewer thing.
01:02:35 <fizzie> (Anyway, it'll be later, got at least a few other things on the stack that need to be popped off before getting back that deep.)
01:03:21 <b_jonas> fizzie: you think that's overengineered? at one point I had a function in evalj that would send a command to buubot in private, block until it gets the reply, and returned the reply. it was a true function you can call from any J expression at any depth.
01:03:43 <b_jonas> jsut for fun, not for any practical thing
01:06:26 <shachaf> Do you know the 11-queens problem?
01:06:31 <b_jonas> oh, and buubot has or had a builtin that took a http url as argument, sent a HEAD request to it, and returned the status line
01:07:01 <b_jonas> so you can bind it ot any custom server of yours that gives answers in the status line
01:08:04 <shachaf> Oh, I was confused about what the problem was.
01:09:20 <int-e> b_jonas: ah, figured out a way: http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/grid3.png
01:10:56 <esowiki> [[TOWCBL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58899&oldid=58875 * ShareMan * (+1132) Added more information for some commands.
01:11:59 <b_jonas> and since the bridges all cross over tiles of a different color, it's easy to see them
01:19:02 <oerjan> . o O ( i have 11 problems but a queen ain't one )
01:19:57 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/edit/bin/wdit
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01:22:27 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/edit/tmp/%24%27a%5Cnb%27
01:22:41 <shachaf> And https://hack.esolangs.org/edit/tmp/a%0ab is a 404
01:22:52 <shachaf> how come edit doesn't support files with newlines in the name tdnh
01:23:46 <fizzie> That might be a nginx configuration thing.
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01:26:04 <fizzie> (Or maybe a Flask limitation, that's what the edit thing is based on.)
01:28:50 <int-e> b_jonas: I guess this is the other one: http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/grid4.png
01:29:18 <int-e> hmm. no, I messed that up.
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02:01:41 <b_jonas> int-e: that's using the same disconnected polymino, not the other one
02:03:41 <int-e> b_jonas: you mean XXX X? that can be assembled into an 8x1 strip, XXXZXZZZ
02:05:09 <int-e> I was looking for different tilings of the plane using XX XX.
02:06:39 <int-e> (but now I wonder how many of those there are, since I misunderstood what you wrote earlier)
02:07:13 <b_jonas> int-e: for different tilings, try taking http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/grid3.png, find the yellow polyminos that have no bridge over them, take them out, and put cyan polyminos in the gaps
02:07:36 <b_jonas> int-e: I think the other hard case was XXX X then
02:08:24 <int-e> But anyway, the way I'm drawing this now, each tile now consists of three rectangles (as in the white version), with the two short angles covered by a small circle without border.
02:09:17 <int-e> ... arg, I think this is a sign to go to sleep: s/angles/edges/
02:10:05 <int-e> and I've played with the depth of everything so the bridges are always drawn over the base rectangles.
02:10:57 <int-e> see http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/bridges.fig if you have xfig.
02:12:26 <int-e> And yeah, tiling the plane XXX X is not immediately obvious.
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02:46:42 <int-e> b_jonas: actually what about this way without bridges: http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/grid5.png
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03:27:37 <b_jonas> int-e: interesting. that seems different from the tiling I made. I chould try to reconstruct mine later. feel free to remind me of that.
03:29:11 <int-e> final picture for tonight: http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/grid6.png
03:30:40 <b_jonas> ah, now that right one looks more familiar to me
03:31:22 <b_jonas> because that one is symmetric to translating 8 right and to translating 8 down
03:31:56 <b_jonas> and I think that was a symmetry I used for the other disconnected polymino tiling too
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03:34:05 <int-e> b_jonas: I like how the two left ones follow such a similar pattern for different tetrominos :)
03:36:10 <int-e> wait, why have I made the third one so complicated...
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03:51:25 <imode> is wang tiling (or any kind of tiling) the only "geometric" model of computation around?
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04:05:53 <imode> answered my own question: signal machines.
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04:09:37 <zzo38> I played a GURPS game today. It is good my character carries a scribing kit everywhere, so, can write "X" on a big snail's shell.
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05:07:58 * imode wonders if graph rewriting has a combinatory equivalent..
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05:57:58 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58900&oldid=58570 * Salpynx * (+365) reorder and update my languages
06:19:14 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58901&oldid=58900 * Salpynx * (+2428) /* Non-Latin Historical Writing system esolangs */
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06:30:34 <esowiki> [[Sumerian]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58902 * Salpynx * (+385) add esolang found on TIO / github
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06:39:29 <esowiki> [[Nikud]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58903 * Salpynx * (+1289) add another esolang found on github
06:40:11 <esowiki> [[Nikud]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58904&oldid=58903 * Salpynx * (+1) /* External resources */
06:41:31 <esowiki> [[Nikud]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58905&oldid=58904 * Salpynx * (+80) /* External resources */
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06:43:08 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58906&oldid=58901 * Salpynx * (-117) /* Interested in */
06:44:00 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58907&oldid=58906 * Salpynx * (+0) /* Non-Latin historical writing system esolangs */
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07:11:33 <imode> my world has now been rocked by signal machines. I did not know geometric computing was so deep.
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08:22:19 <esowiki> [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58908 * Salpynx * (+3986) Created page with "'''''' (Rna) is a Runic [[fungeoid]] currently being developed by [[User:Salpynx]] after noticing that there were no existing esolangs written in runic (oth..."
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10:52:13 <esowiki> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58909&oldid=58908 * Salpynx * (+3147) /* Commands */
11:09:16 <esowiki> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58910&oldid=58909 * Salpynx * (+187) /* Examples */ Old-Norse Hello World (2D, next column wrapping)
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11:31:36 <esowiki> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58911&oldid=58910 * Salpynx * (+325) /* Examples */ Historical code runes
11:54:54 <esowiki> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58912&oldid=58911 * Salpynx * (+1343) Note re. multi-threadedness and IP variables
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11:55:54 <esowiki> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58913&oldid=58912 * Salpynx * (-1) /* Multi-threaded */
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14:43:34 <b_jonas> `bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20181229.html
14:43:36 <HackEso> bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20181229.html: b_jonas
14:50:44 <b_jonas> I just realized that there's a way how the home computer industry has done a half-turn in 30 years. In the 1980s, a lot of home computers were advertised as business computers, even if users actually played games on them. So these computers came with crippled graphics and sound capabilities, and game programmers had to work those around in creative ways.
14:52:43 <b_jonas> Whereas these days, a lot of computer hardware is advertised with a "gaming" label, despite that it's utterly not designed for gaming. You see motherboards with error-correcting RAM and hardware RAID but an inferior graphics card compared to today's standards, and keyboards with nice echoey springs for typing, all sold as "gaming" stuff.
14:53:56 <b_jonas> And of course there are general purpose computers disguised as "gaming computers", often with some sort of DRM lockdown to make it more difficult to port programs to them, despite that they have more than enough hardware for them.
15:10:45 <b_jonas> int-e: I think I figured out the tiling I used for the OOO__O disconnected polyminio. let me draw a figure.
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15:15:59 <int-e> b_jonas: I've updated http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/grid6.png to use a more symmetric way of obtaining the last tiling
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15:23:17 <b_jonas> int-e: I mean tiling with the the other polymino
15:24:08 <b_jonas> I have seen grid6.png, and that one is probably either the tiling I used for the OO_OO polymino, or close
15:24:33 <int-e> b_jonas: what I'm saying is that the grid6 that you've seen may not be the one that's there.
15:24:53 <arseniiv> nice tilings, was the goal to make any one tiling or something more constrained?
15:26:14 <int-e> arseniiv: it's tilings using one of two kinds of disconnected tetronimos
15:26:57 <int-e> arseniiv: the first one uses XXX X (and b_jonas has a different tiling for that one), the other two use XX XX, where each X is a square and the space is a gap.
15:27:18 <b_jonas> arseniiv: part of it is to draw nice images for the tilings
15:28:23 <arseniiv> ah, so there no additional constraints?
15:29:01 <b_jonas> I didn't state any, besides that it has to use either of these particular disconnected polyminos, but I'm really trying to draw a particular tiling that I like right now
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15:48:04 <b_jonas> int-e: tiling with OOO__O: https://i.stack.imgur.com/cmYBY.png
15:48:57 <b_jonas> this one is periodic to translations by (0,8) squares and by (2,2) squares
15:49:40 <b_jonas> no bridges drawn, but squares of the same color that are close to each other are part of the same polymino
15:50:01 <b_jonas> so I used 32 different colors
15:50:33 <b_jonas> obviously it's not easy to choose 32 distinguishable colors
15:50:43 <b_jonas> so it doesn't look perfect
16:03:15 <int-e> b_jonas: I've included it in http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/grid6.png
16:07:48 <int-e> hmm but again, I can make this more symmetric
16:16:40 <b_jonas> int-e: _more_ symmetric than it is?
16:17:16 <int-e> I mean using a more symmetric meta-tile.
16:18:22 <b_jonas> so you want to choose a symmetric fundamental region, or whatever chemists call that
16:18:54 <b_jonas> hmm, let me try to search that article on Ruxor's blog that may clear up this terminology a bit
16:24:08 <int-e> anyway that was a fun way to waste time
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16:46:10 <int-e> now if I could just stop tweaking that picture that would be great ;) (another update that makes it more obvious that the two outer tilings follow a similar pattern)
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16:57:47 <b_jonas> int-e: sorry for the nerd snipe in that case :-)
17:06:22 <int-e> It's what this channel is for.
17:08:57 <int-e> b_jonas: Besides I'm quite happy with the result.
17:09:46 <int-e> (even without bridges... adding bridges is left as an exercise to an interested party)
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17:17:54 <int-e> b_jonas: Regarding colors, I think it's a good idea to choose similar colors for pieces related by the underlying symmetries (translations by (0,8) and (2,2) in your case). Also, two colors are enough in principle to fully disambiguate the pieces. (one easy way is to alternate the colors for the pieces in each row and column).
17:22:27 <int-e> ... where I mentally assign horizontal pieces to rows and vertical pieces to columns. The alternation makes sure that if we see X XXX X, we will know which single X belongs to the XXX.
17:23:54 <int-e> (It's similar for the other tetromino we considered: exactly two of the dominos in XX XX XX will end up with the same color)
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19:32:47 <esowiki> [[Talk:]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58914 * Zzo38 * (+183) Created page with "You can use runic encoding instead of Unicode, and then you can use pentimal numbering system properly. --~~~~"
19:33:42 <b_jonas> heh. wiki announcer still has difficulties with some non-ASCII characters in titles
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19:37:47 <esowiki> [[Talk:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58915&oldid=58914 * Zzo38 * (+148)
19:46:03 <fizzie> That's probably my fault.
19:48:25 <fizzie> Yes, it only passes through byte values 3 (for the color codes) and 32..126.
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20:04:06 <int-e> oh well, the link works
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20:09:50 <fizzie> Filed as https://github.com/fis/esolangs/issues/1
20:10:04 <fizzie> (Since GitHub provides the issue tracker by default, might as well use it.)
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21:01:45 <b_jonas> fizzie: then you're just postponing your troubles by a few months, to when you find that it's very difficult to export the data from github's issue tracker, and either you can't use the issue tracker properly, or you lost access to it completely. good luck.
21:01:59 <b_jonas> until that time, enjoy your freebie.
21:38:57 <fizzie> I don't think that's so serious for this specific use case.
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21:48:44 <zzo38> If no part of a string matches /[^0-9/+*^|&%()-]|[^0-9()]{2}|\)[0-9(]|\([^0-9(-]/ can you execute arbitrary JavaScript codes from it?
21:52:18 <rain1> I want to put that into a thing that generates examples from a regex
21:52:38 <rain1> or its negation maybe
22:00:36 <zzo38> What thing is there that generates examples by a negation of a regex?
22:02:14 <rain1> i couldn't find one on google
22:02:59 <shachaf> There is https://fomafst.github.io/
22:03:08 <shachaf> I think? Maybe it doesn't generate, actually, I'm not sure.
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22:25:33 <b_jonas> zzo38: hmm, is that some website that tries to act like a calculator?
22:26:12 <b_jonas> zzo38: and is that perl syntax regex? I'm asking because the [...-] has a different meaning in some regexen
22:26:51 <b_jonas> I don't know javascript enough to be able to answer that though
22:27:35 <b_jonas> but I think there are people here who do know javascript
22:29:12 <shachaf> https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/91605800/mum-fears-burglar-ate-her-placenta
22:33:45 <int-e> shachaf: disturbing
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23:50:34 <shachaf> How should coroutines/userspace threads be implemented if you want them to be very efficient and are willing to have compiler support?
23:54:21 <b_jonas> shachaf: recompile everything with a new calling convention that has very few callee-saved regs, for one
23:55:00 <shachaf> One option would be to use two stacks, one for state that needs to be saved and one for general computation.
23:55:17 <b_jonas> admittedly that's harder than just "compioler support"
23:55:36 <b_jonas> shachaf: we already have a redzone for that
23:56:58 <b_jonas> for stack stuff that doesn't need to be saved by calls. I don't think it helps all that much though for coroutines though
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23:58:48 <shachaf> The problem is that you might have a general-purpose computation that uses a bunch of stack space.
23:59:03 <shachaf> And every time you switch stacks the whole new stack is out of the cache.
00:01:07 <b_jonas> yes, cache is one of the reasons why you want to make context switches rare in first place, not more frequent, even if they're within one user space. but that doesn't answer your question I think.
00:01:45 <b_jonas> I don't see how any stack arrangement really fixes that.
00:02:20 <b_jonas> Obviously you can make it worse by a really bad scheme, but still.
00:03:46 <shachaf> Well, imagine you had no compiler support.
00:04:11 <shachaf> The straightforward thing you'd do is define a struct for all the asynchronous state you need, including an "instruction pointer".
00:04:39 <b_jonas> We already have some amount of compiler support.
00:05:33 <b_jonas> And cpu arch support too, for that matter. It took me some time to figure that out.
00:07:35 <b_jonas> shachaf: you know when x86_64 added the AVX instructions, thus extending 128-bit XMM registers to 256-bit YMM registers, right? The existing XMM registers are aliased to the bottom halves of the YMM registers.
00:07:45 <int-e> wait, which do you want... coroutines or userspace threads?
00:08:09 <shachaf> They seem like the same kind of thing?
00:08:18 <b_jonas> how exactly do you define them
00:08:39 <b_jonas> also the real question is, what you want, since you asked the question in first place
00:08:59 <shachaf> I want a convenient and efficient way to write code that does asynchronous operations.
00:09:36 <b_jonas> shachaf: well, that's somewhat of a different applications then. so coroutines or user-space threads or whatever, but applied to asynchronious IO in particular?
00:10:15 <int-e> Coroutines are invoked explicitly (for example, when you hand control off to a generator), which is amenable to static analysis (though obviously only to the extend that function pointers are amenable to static analysis).
00:10:41 <shachaf> (Cooperative) userspace threads are coroutines that are invoked by some scheduler.
00:11:47 <b_jonas> So anyway, when x86_64 did that, they made it so that all existing instructions that modified an XMM register never changed the upper halves of the YMM register. This has the disadvantage that whenever you have libraries compiled to SSE2 and libraries compiled to AVX in the same userspace, and you call between them, then either you have zero all the upper halves, or the cpu has to deal with stashing
00:11:54 <b_jonas> away the upper halves when it does YMM registers,
00:12:38 <int-e> So coroutines often are coordinated in a predictable way. Threads usually aren't coordinated; they are scheduled but do unrelated work.
00:12:42 <shachaf> Let's imagine I don't care about XMM
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00:13:06 <b_jonas> or otherwise most SSE2 instructions would suddenly get an extra input, because they have to merge the old value of the output YMM register into the YMM register. The cpu allows both of these: the code explicitly zeroing the YMM registers or the cpu stashing the top halves.
00:13:12 <b_jonas> But nevertheless, this seems inefficient.
00:13:34 <b_jonas> shachaf: you don't care about XMM? but you want efficient code with compiler support? do you want to use a new cpu architecture too?
00:13:40 <int-e> Now sure, you can build a scheduler on top of a coroutine mechanism, but any static analysis for coroutines is bound to fail.
00:14:03 <b_jonas> So for a while I wondered why x86_64 was designed to work that way, instead of all SSE2 instructions just zeroing the top halves of any YMM register that they store into.
00:14:06 <shachaf> int-e: OK, then I'll say that I care about cooperative userspace threads.
00:14:30 <int-e> Then I'll say that you're in for a lot of trouble. :P
00:15:03 <b_jonas> But it turns out that that would have been bad, because you couldn't do user-space coroutine switching correctly, which would be a worse cost than the one we have to pay now.
00:15:38 <shachaf> amd64 registers are so complicated
00:16:02 <b_jonas> shachaf: yes they are. but if you are asking for efficient code with compiler support, you have to deal with that.
00:16:33 <shachaf> For example storing into the lower 32-bits zeroes the upper 32-bits, but storing into the lower 16-bits doesn't zero the upper 16-bits
00:16:58 <b_jonas> shachaf: yes, and that is for exactly the same reason as with the XMM registers
00:17:30 <shachaf> Anyway, what about the specific case of userspace threads ignoring SIMD registers for the moment?
00:17:44 <b_jonas> back then in the 386, the extra input dependency didn't matter, so that was a sane design choice
00:17:56 <b_jonas> today it's much more strange, and has a much more obscure reason
00:18:06 <shachaf> There's an obvious thing you can do, which is just allocate a stack for each thread and switch out rsp and rip (and the callee-save registers) on context switch.
00:18:11 <b_jonas> shachaf: again, then you're losing more than you gain with userspace threads
00:18:36 <b_jonas> um yes, except you have to save much more than that, specifically all the callee-saved registers
00:19:11 <shachaf> The callee-saved registers are not much more than the callee-save registers.
00:20:26 <b_jonas> I mean, you have to save more than just rsp and rip, because there are more callee-saved registers than that
00:20:54 <shachaf> There are six others in System V amd64 ABI
00:21:10 <shachaf> Saving a few registers is not really the big bottleneck here.
00:21:58 <b_jonas> the sad part is that you usually have to save both floating point control registers (the x87 one and the SSE2 one), AND the signal mask (not technically a register, but you do have to save it), despite that most of the time they aren't actually changed in the program
00:22:14 <b_jonas> but it's hard to make sure that no library linked into your program ever changes them, so you have to save them
00:22:25 <shachaf> You can just make sure that no library every changes them.
00:22:55 <shachaf> Changing the signal mask is ridiculous, you have to do a system call per context switch.
00:23:52 <b_jonas> shachaf: yes, that's sad, but you have to do it. the good news is that system calls like that are very fast.
00:24:03 <b_jonas> sometimes they can even execute purely in userspace.
00:24:14 <b_jonas> without switching to kernel mode that is. by magic.
00:24:45 <b_jonas> I don't know if the signal mask thing can do that, but the point is, it doesn't have to do IO or anything, it just has to change some flags and check some other flags for pending signals.
00:24:49 <shachaf> No, you don't have to do it, because you're writing a program and you know what your program is doing.
00:25:07 <int-e> Ah words, my eternal nemeses. I could've saved a lot of typing by just writing that coroutines are much more tightly coupled than threads (userspace or otherwise).
00:25:35 <b_jonas> shachaf: yes, see above what I said about how recompiling all the libraries you link in, including all the nasty parts of glibc, does help, but in practice it's harder than what you might expect by "compiler support"
00:26:23 <b_jonas> and the signal mask is one you can get away the easiest, because the program has more control over it, but there's no way you can optimize away the two floating point control registers
00:26:35 <b_jonas> Let me check the source code to see what else I forget that have to be saved
00:26:36 <shachaf> Maybe your program doesn't do floating point operations.
00:27:00 <b_jonas> shachaf: maybe, but it's very unlikely that even all the libraries including libc never do any
00:27:09 <b_jonas> it's pretty unlikely in fact
00:27:34 <shachaf> I don't think saving registers is the big bottleneck here anyway.
00:28:38 <b_jonas> wait, there's some additional crazy stuff here I think
00:28:42 <b_jonas> something that I forgot about
00:28:43 <shachaf> I think a much bigger problem with the system I described is that every time you do a stack witch, the entire stack is out of the cache.
00:29:28 <b_jonas> shachaf: I don't see why it would be "the entire stack", and I don't see why it's the stack in particular that you care about
00:29:57 <b_jonas> whenever you use more data than fits in your cache, most of the old data will be out of the cache
00:30:08 <HackEso> apt:APT is a technical term in cyber witchcraft, short for "adequate pernicious toe-rags". \ peace witch:Peace witches do alchemy: they turn mundane building material to gold. They're in the same universe where Bowser turned peaceful citizens of the Mushroom Kingdom to building material.
00:30:09 <b_jonas> it doesn't matter much if it's stack or not
00:30:40 <b_jonas> if you access very few data during when a coroutine executes, then the other data isn't out of the stack. if you use a lot, then it's out of the stack.
00:31:03 <b_jonas> sure, there are some fine details going on there because caches are complicated
00:31:12 <b_jonas> but why is the stack in particular important?
00:31:35 <shachaf> Because you could do a stack switch and then call a function that uses a bunch of stack space but doesn't do any context switch.
00:31:46 <shachaf> And all that memory is not in the cache.
00:31:56 <zzo38> I have thought to instead design the instruction set without automatic cache control and instead you must specify your own controls
00:34:20 <int-e> . o O ( there's an easy way out... just don't do a context switch. )
00:34:24 <b_jonas> zzo38: you know that already gets very hairy, but if you also do user-space coroutine switches, then it gets really horrible
00:34:30 <b_jonas> int-e: yeah, that's what I said above.
00:34:55 <int-e> Or do the transputer thing (3 registers, was it? sweet for context switching!)
00:35:26 <shachaf> int-e: OK, what's your alternative?
00:35:40 <shachaf> I'm not really tied to threads here, I'd like any sort of way to express these asynchronous things nicely.
00:37:49 <int-e> I guess I'm not sure why you want to switch away out of the middle of a heavy computation in the first place; that sounds like a job for a proper OS thread to me.
00:38:24 <shachaf> A computation doesn't have to be very heavy to suffer from cache misses.
00:38:37 <shachaf> I'd like to measure this, admittedly.
00:38:51 <int-e> I imagine you also have something event-driven where nothing ever takes long, which can all be handled by a single event-driven thread.
00:39:29 <shachaf> Sure, and then you'd make structs that correspond more or less to the contents of the stack for the threads, right?
00:39:54 <int-e> If they carry state... yes.
00:40:01 <b_jonas> sorry, that was unrelated to the couroutine thing
00:40:37 <shachaf> Sure, they carry state. They do a moderately complicated thing.
00:41:03 <b_jonas> shachaf: and sometimes the compiler helps you with maintaining those structs implicitly
00:41:48 <b_jonas> in the first stage by supporting closures;
00:42:41 <b_jonas> and in the second stage by allowing the programmer to mark functions as "async", and those functions are compiled so that they or other async functions they call can have yield points where they save their state and IP into a struct and pick up from there when you continue them.
00:42:48 <b_jonas> compilers can actually do both these days.
00:43:04 <shachaf> Sure, that's one of the schemes I'm describing.
00:43:24 <b_jonas> the drawback is that you can't do a stackless yield through a function that isn't compiled async, even when it calls your function back,
00:43:41 <b_jonas> but compiling every function that has callbacks async can cost a lot.
00:43:49 <imode> int-e: I wonder, because you have partially applied arguments, if it's possible to refactor that queue automata you had such that it doesn't do subterm copying. your state tables would balloon but I don't think it'd be _that_ much of an increase.
00:44:13 <b_jonas> so user-space context switches are easier if you have unpredictable yields from deep inside functions, but generally you want to avoid that.
00:44:55 <shachaf> I think requiring the user to mark async functions is reasonable.
00:45:00 <b_jonas> shachaf: yes, that's what you said, I just wanted to explicitly tell how it works
00:45:24 <int-e> imode: I don't know what you mean by "partially applied arguments" but any kind of graph reduction requires a representation of references and I'm not going there on this level of non-abstraction.
00:45:27 <b_jonas> shachaf: yes, but the user also needs to learn how to write code efficiently. that is, of course, ALWAYS the case when you want efficient code, because compilers can't just do magic.
00:45:47 <shachaf> Yes. The question is how you can help a user who knows what they're doing, of course.
00:46:23 <b_jonas> both that, and what is it that the user should do exactly
00:46:29 <imode> int-e: `sk results in a unique object that represents the partial application of S to K. further applications produce new, unique objects. I'm asking if it's possible to strip away the states you use to copy subterms around.
00:46:44 <int-e> imode: (the point of graph reduction is that one can share subterms which is what you seem to be suggesting)
00:46:56 <imode> not interested in graphs.
00:47:06 <int-e> imode: in my automaton `sk is just that.
00:47:42 <int-e> imode: It's an application of s to k. There is nothing "partial" about it, it's just not a redex.
00:47:43 <imode> let me rephrase: I'm wondering if it's possible to eliminate #, %, & and @.
00:48:52 <imode> it is a partial application... S takes 3 arguments, you've converted it to something that takes 1 and applied it to a single argument.
00:49:01 <imode> rather, 1 at a time.
00:49:28 <int-e> imode: Yeah, no, that's not the way I see it. ` takes 2 arguments; S and K take none.
00:50:53 <int-e> imode: I'm viewing this as first-order term rewriting. Terms are built from s, k and `; no partial applications. There are rules ``k<X><Y> -> <X> and ```s<X><Y><Z> -> ``<X><Z>`<Y><Z>. I implement leftmost outermost reduction for these two rules.
00:51:01 <b_jonas> imode: you know that you almost certainly need at least one data structure that has two child. in this case it's the S2 closure. you can choose different primitives, but you'd have to get REALLY far from combinatorial calculus before you get something with only list-like structures, no tree-like ones.
00:51:37 <imode> int-e: right, and in your execution, you're skipping/moving over subterms. I'm asking you if it's possible to remove those.
00:51:47 <imode> your state table would grow.
00:53:16 <int-e> imode: I don't see how to do that with finitely many states. And copying is unavoidable if I want to implement ```s<X><Y><Z> -> ``<X><Z>`<Y><Z> without changing the term representation.
00:54:30 <imode> something tells me it's possible to do that with finitely many states, but _not_ generally: you'd need to generate the state tables for any particular term tree.
00:58:19 <imode> https://ptpb.pw/-OCf/text something like the following. I'm curious if it's poossible to avoid the explosion.
00:59:12 <imode> whup, one of those rules is wrong.
00:59:44 <int-e> imode: the thing is, to skip over a subterm without using auxiliary symbols, you have to keep track of how many ` you have seen (since when you have to skip n subterms, after seeing a ` you have to skip n+1 subterms), and there is no bound on that number, even for a fixed starting term.
01:00:50 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, there's no shortcut because you can't avoid a tree-like structure
01:00:55 <imode> int-e: correct. what I'm proposing isn't using a head-based evaluation method but running over the string using basic substitution rules.
01:00:57 <b_jonas> you can't make it just lists nested to a limited depth
01:01:05 <int-e> imode: oh now you have many more markers: (, S, K, )
01:01:27 <imode> yeah but (SK) and such can be converted into single symbol markers.
01:02:11 <imode> just went for a walk earlier and thought of a possible reduction from SK to Thue.
01:02:13 <int-e> imode: so now *you* have partial applications which I have avoided.
01:03:12 <imode> my thought is that there's a finite set of objects and a finite set of application rules that leads to an evaluator for combinatory logic.
01:03:41 <rain1> I would like to understand the problem you are working on better
01:03:58 <rain1> it is related to SK combinators implemented with string rewriting
01:04:17 <rain1> and you use auxilliary characters to represent tape head, guide the evaluation and want to reduce them
01:04:22 <int-e> imode: So... hmm. No, that won't end up being finite. I can produce a starting term that will evolve all off S, (SS), (SSS), (SSSS), ... for example. (It's not even hard if you know how to do abstraction elimination, since you can just iterate \x -> (x S) starting with S.
01:05:13 <imode> I realize that. there's an encoding I've been trying to study/mull over of SK encoded in terms of wang tiles.
01:05:13 <int-e> imode: It's also completely contrary to what I intended to do... namely, find a sweet tradeoff between the number of states required, simplicity, and number of extra symbols.
01:05:24 <rain1> you pasted code before with the # % stuff, can we see it again
01:05:24 <imode> think I linked it yesterday.
01:05:36 <b_jonas> imode: do BCKW instead of SK! :-)
01:05:45 <b_jonas> it doesn't really help, but still
01:06:10 <imode> http://ceur-ws.org/Vol-1032/paper-01.pdf
01:06:17 <b_jonas> see https://esolangs.org/wiki/Combinatory_logic
01:06:28 <int-e> rain1: if you're wondering about context, the #, %, &, @ refer to states in http://paste.debian.net/1057921/
01:06:42 <rain1> ah queue automaton
01:07:35 <rain1> ok how about this idea: find a much simpler queue automaton which isalso turing complete and S,K can be macro expressed into in a simple way
01:07:49 <rain1> perhaps that could reduce the rewrite system a bit
01:08:01 <imode> int-e: they give a sample reduction on page 9.
01:08:34 <int-e> rain1: it it would be trivial to implement any particular bitwise cyclic tag program.
01:08:50 <b_jonas> rain1: yes, you do that by making an interpreter for one of those low-powered languages that ais523 likes
01:08:52 <imode> which involves a finite amount of objects with a finite amount of rewrite rules. it's specific, however, to that particular subterm, I think.
01:09:05 <b_jonas> such as counter machine stuff
01:09:05 <rain1> yeah but it would be difficult to express SK into cyclic tag wouldn't it?
01:09:18 <rain1> could we find something a bit more powerful than cyclic tag that's still very minimal
01:09:30 <rain1> anyway just one idea
01:09:38 <b_jonas> you can't just get around that
01:09:43 <int-e> rain1: (meaninq BCT is trivial to compile to a queue automaton; in fact it would be fair to say that it *is* a queue automaton)
01:10:28 <imode> yeah. they encode subterms as specific objects, T0 through T7.
01:10:44 <imode> so you can generate a set of tilings for _that particular_ string of applications.
01:11:08 <b_jonas> or perhaps one of those 1-dimensional cellular automata thingies that ais523 used to consider earlier could be better than a counter-machine based approach
01:11:20 <b_jonas> you know, the really small universal 1-dimensional CAs
01:11:36 <rain1> I suppose the fundamental difficulty arises from the fact you are processing a linear string, but it represents a tree
01:11:53 <b_jonas> rain1: yes, and it's a provable performance hit too
01:11:54 <rain1> so tree parsing is mixed up with evaluation - that is what you were discussing before I interrupted
01:12:03 <imode> b_jonas: you can generate a CA to evaluate a particular term.
01:12:05 <rain1> I think I am up to speed now
01:12:28 <b_jonas> and if you simulate the CA, you can also easily add various extension rules
01:12:37 <b_jonas> as in, periodic background patterns
01:12:50 <b_jonas> which sort of count as cheats for pure CAs, but not here
01:13:09 <imode> so, what's interesting about that is that you can generate a CA from a CL term that's an interpreter of CL terms.
01:13:36 <rain1> oh that is interesting but I imagine the result will bea large CA
01:14:01 <rain1> and it will operated on a SK representation of SK combinators, which introduces overhead
01:14:01 <imode> that honestly depends on your combinator basis.
01:14:04 <b_jonas> imode: no. I don't think that's true. the interesting about it is that there are very small universal CAs, so you can emulate them easily in a cyclic queue machine.
01:14:12 <rain1> we can switch to the X single combinator basis
01:14:20 <imode> b_jonas: what's not true?
01:14:30 <b_jonas> imode: it's not true that you can easily generate a CA from a CL term
01:15:02 <imode> did you read the PDF I linked.
01:15:05 <imode> they give a schema for it.
01:15:18 <imode> http://ceur-ws.org/Vol-1032/paper-01.pdf page 6 through 9.
01:15:37 <rain1> isn't that wang tiles rather than a CA
01:15:40 <imode> gives the general method for generating a tileset from a particular term tree within a combinator basis.
01:15:54 <shachaf> b_jonas: One of the things that a compiler can do that doesn't happen in a struct is liveness analysis.
01:16:02 <imode> rain1: a CA is just a wang tileset that discards its history.
01:16:16 <shachaf> If you only need some subset of the fields for each state, a compiler can figure that out automatically.
01:16:17 <imode> a wang tiling can be seen as a representation of the history of a CA.
01:16:37 <imode> it's trivial to map a 2D wang tiling to a 1D CA, and they give an encoding of CL as a 2D wang tiling.
01:17:41 <b_jonas> shachaf: I don't really understand that. if the compiler has the support for compiling async (yieldable) functions in a way that they suspend to a struct, then it can also do liveness analysis on it
01:18:04 <shachaf> Yes, sure, I mean compared to a manual struct.
01:18:05 <b_jonas> is there some difference between that case and the case when you do user-space context switches?
01:18:11 <rain1> i think that is a limited view of wang tiles
01:18:15 <rain1> but I get what you mean
01:18:26 <shachaf> I mean this is another reason you might want to have compiler support.
01:18:35 <imode> a 3D wang tiling generates a 2D CA, for example.
01:18:52 <imode> there are also mappings between 2D wang tilings and 2D CAs.
01:19:13 <b_jonas> shachaf: not really. a programmer can also figure out which variables they changed, and store only those, or load only the ones they use
01:19:15 <imode> you just have a large number of states.
01:19:38 <shachaf> Sure, but then it's not really a struct anymore.
01:19:50 <rain1> don't you agree there are wang tile sets that don't relate to CA?
01:20:01 <b_jonas> shachaf: heck, even the compiler can figure out most of that from just the individual, what's it called, primitive block? whatever you call a section of the code with only one entry point and ends at yields
01:20:15 <imode> rain1: can you show me an example of one?
01:21:10 <int-e> imode: wtf is that paper...
01:21:11 <b_jonas> shachaf: um, I mean, if you always reuse the same struct for the storage of the same coroutine, mutating it in place
01:21:20 <imode> int-e: a wild ride.
01:21:27 <b_jonas> which of course works that simple only if you don't have deep call stacks
01:21:40 <b_jonas> heck, even without that it still works
01:21:43 <b_jonas> even in a non-mutating way
01:21:53 <b_jonas> sorry, the in-place store isn't very relevant
01:21:57 <int-e> imode: it starts going wrong when it tries to treat SKI as a monoid. That would require b = I b = K I a b = K a b = a
01:22:11 <b_jonas> so no, I just don't get the point
01:22:36 <int-e> (monoids are associative)
01:23:20 <b_jonas> int-e: wait, a monoid with respect to composition? HAHAHAHA
01:24:09 <shachaf> I mean, you might have an operation that does steps A, then B, then C.
01:24:20 <imode> "Wang Tiles is a monoid, on Tiles as terms, with Wang-arrangement as the only operation."
01:24:24 <int-e> imode: it's also cute how it builds full SKI reduction into the tiles ("Connection Tiles").
01:24:56 <shachaf> You can write the state as struct { enum IP { Start, A, B, C, Done }; AState a; BState b; CState c; }; or something.
01:24:57 <int-e> imode: and the claim that you end up with a finite set of tiles in the end... I don't see where this is proved (which is no surprise because it's necessarily false)
01:25:09 <shachaf> But in fact you only need enough memory for one of those.
01:25:26 <shachaf> (In this case you can just use a union. But in general you might share some state between some steps and so on.)
01:25:27 <imode> int-e: if you look at page 9, you can see an example breakdown: what they've done is map a particular term to a particular set of tiles.
01:25:37 <b_jonas> shachaf: sure, you make it a tagged union instead.
01:25:45 <b_jonas> possibly sharing some common state that is not often modified
01:25:53 <b_jonas> such as the caller pointer
01:25:53 <imode> so you don't end up with a _general_ set of evaluation rules for SKI in wang tiles, but you have a schema for _converting_ arbitrary SKI terms to wang tiles.
01:26:12 <int-e> imode: infinitely many of them, and SKI reduction is built into the tile set.
01:26:31 <shachaf> Sure, you can do all that, but liveness analysis does it automatically for you, is all I'm saying.
01:26:33 <imode> no, not infinitely many.
01:26:42 <int-e> even if they don't actually treat it as a monoid (but I think they do) this is utter trash.
01:26:57 <imode> you're not getting what I'm saying: they build a tileset for evaluating _one_ specific SKI term.
01:27:00 <imode> not the whole space of them.
01:27:08 <imode> and there's a schema for generating those tilesets.
01:27:10 <int-e> imode: if it has a normal form
01:27:16 <b_jonas> shachaf: the scopes of variables in the code, before compiling to an async function, is mostly tree-like, that is, with any two variables, either the first lives longer or the second lives longer, the scope of one contains the other,
01:27:17 <imode> you do not need infinitely many tiles.
01:27:48 <b_jonas> shachaf: and that implies that if you turn it to a struct, you always get a properly nested union-struct, with copies/moves necessary only when the orignal code copies/moves a value.
01:28:49 <imode> if this paper is bullshit then supercombinators are bullshit. :P
01:29:52 <int-e> imode: For every reduction step, the full redex must be captured in a Wang tile (Fig. 2 is the only place where reductions happen), so all we need is a starting term with unbounded redex size.
01:30:10 <int-e> imode: Really, this is nonsense. I'm sorry to have seen this paper.
01:30:25 <imode> I mean, write up a response to it with proofs.
01:30:55 <imode> I think hasty dismissal isn't a good way of doing things.
01:31:00 <b_jonas> two-dimension might help to represent a tree structure, because you can put each child expression of the tree one row below the parent, so it's easier to skip the expression by just skipping through markers in the row above, without having to count parenthesis
01:31:09 <rain1> I see int-e's point
01:31:25 <rain1> it would require infinitely many tiles
01:31:26 <b_jonas> I mean, if you want to simulate evaluating combinatorial logic with a two-dimensional CA
01:31:30 <rain1> but a wang tileset should be finite
01:31:32 <b_jonas> of course with just wang tiles it won't help,
01:31:43 <b_jonas> because with wag tiling you need the second dimension for time
01:31:48 <b_jonas> (it may be parallel, but still)
01:33:15 <imode> bear in mind there are also other versions of this paper that go a little more in depth with actual proofs.
01:34:18 <int-e> "22nd International Workshop on Concurrency, Specification and Programming" ... sad.
01:39:00 <rain1> I can see that some wang tilings are like CAs
01:39:08 <rain1> but I don't see that all wang tilings are CAs
01:39:13 <rain1> I can't give an example
01:39:41 <rain1> it seems like the constructed tilesets have been built with a uniqueness property where the next row/col can be determined by the current one
01:40:13 <rain1> or would it be that each cell is determined by the 3 above it?
01:40:44 <b_jonas> rain1: of course not. they're more powerful than CAs, because they can do time travel loops, which gets it PSPACE-complete or something.
01:41:03 <rain1> that's the key i was missing
01:41:27 <imode> b_jonas: got a proof for that? lmao.
01:41:53 <b_jonas> imode: well, they're actually uncomputable, because the space is unbounded
01:41:59 <b_jonas> so PSPACE-complete is not really true
01:42:04 <b_jonas> they're not limited to PSPACE
01:42:11 <b_jonas> you know how they're uncomputable, right?
01:42:33 <imode> yes... very much aware.
01:42:38 <int-e> imode: Wang tiles *can* implement string rewrite systems, using an approach like that. But it turns out that combinatory logic is not a string rewrite system, and you actually need to put in some effort (which the authors haven't done) to treat it by string rewriting)
01:42:42 <b_jonas> you can just simulate any nondeterministic turing-machine with one tape
01:42:57 <b_jonas> the key point is that it allows any nondeterminism
01:43:02 <b_jonas> which is why you can go back in time
01:43:08 <rain1> i don't like the way imode responsd
01:43:35 <imode> b_jonas: how does nondeterminism allow you to go backwards in time?
01:43:52 <imode> rain1: what's that supposed to mean?
01:43:56 <int-e> imode: crucially, the objects of string rewriting (i.e., strings) do have a monoidal structure.
01:44:38 <b_jonas> imode: you can send information back in time by nondeterministically guessing the information back in the past, sending that information to the future, then making the solution impossible in the future if the information you want to send back isn't the one that you got from the past
01:45:27 <b_jonas> imode: usually it's told the other way, as in, time travel allows arbitrary nondeterminism, in the TCS sense, but it works backwards too
01:45:32 <imode> you've lost me, but I don't think that's how nondeterministic execution works.
01:45:55 <b_jonas> imode: how does it work then?
01:45:55 <int-e> imode: and also crucially, the redexes for any given SRS have bounded size.
01:47:00 <shachaf> b_jonas: Sometimes (often?) a variable is declared early and then stops being used in the middle of a block.
01:48:16 <imode> int-e: can you explain to me how they got their results, then? why is it that they were able to compile a particular term down to wang tilings? I don't quite buy the argument that the compiled terms are required to have normal forms.
01:48:43 <int-e> imode: paper is incredibly patient. you can write anything you like.
01:48:45 <imode> b_jonas: you have multiple possible choices per computation steps, and thus multiple possible paths.
01:48:51 <b_jonas> shachaf: yes. then it's not really strictly tree-like. but note that that only matters if there's a yield in between when it's stopped using and when another variable is started to use. it doesn't matter if you just compute a different new variable from the old one in one step without yield, which is very common.
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01:48:59 <int-e> imode: there are no results. there are unsubstantiated claims.
01:49:00 <b_jonas> imode: yes. that's the guessing part.
01:49:17 <imode> int-e: and yet they were able to show a particular reduction...
01:49:19 <b_jonas> you guess by starting a possible choice for each possible value the information you're guessing can have.
01:49:25 <shachaf> b_jonas: Why doesn't it matter?
01:49:55 <b_jonas> shachaf: because where there's no yield, you don't have to save or load the values to the state struct.
01:50:00 <imode> int-e: help me out here, what's the problem? can you show me a combinatory term that's not able to be translated (using this schema) to wang tiles?
01:50:14 <int-e> imode: yes, you can write down any finite reduction in that fashion. but it doesn't generalize to infinite reductions, and the system is not sound (it allows you to write down non-reductions that have wrong results, like the a = b chain above)
01:51:12 <b_jonas> shachaf: yes, I admit that in some cases it's not strictly tree-like, and you will definitely get such a case when eg. you have a server that's handling a hundred requests asynchroniously and each can take different amount of waiting to another party.
01:51:35 <imode> one moment, gotta walk the dog. highlight me and I'll read back.
01:52:02 <int-e> same here, sans dog
01:55:29 <b_jonas> int-e: well, technically you may need a more complicated a=b chain than the one above, because if you don't have S in your expression, then you can always just restrict the rules to do evaluation steps only when the argument is an atom. you need something with parenthesis required in it.
01:55:44 <b_jonas> but yeah, that if a is a parenthisized expression.
01:56:22 <b_jonas> you do have parenthesis, where you write I b = K (I a) b = K I a b = K a b
01:56:29 <b_jonas> it's the middle step there that's wrong
01:57:01 <b_jonas> so yeah, I guess you might not need parenthesis
01:59:34 <b_jonas> I guess you might not need S
02:06:12 <b_jonas> imode: ignore what I said while I was gone, that's nonsense. listen to int-e, he's got it right.
02:06:32 <imode> so, here's my reasoning: if you look on page 9 of that paper, the list of "Subterms", they've taken a particular combinatory term and knocked it down to a particular set of objects which they map using a schema to a particular set of tiles, and the tiling of those tiles produces the result. even if you had something like the Y combinator written down, when applied to a particular combinator term, _you would
02:06:32 <imode> still_ be able to generate a finite amount of tiles, but your tiling would be infinite.
02:08:25 <imode> I agree that the paper is somewhat underspecified but I don't see the damning evidence that it's all trash.
02:09:46 <imode> I'm also not too keen on insulting people's work after a quick glance at it, but that's just my approach.
02:10:29 <imode> still trying to find that alternate version of said paper.
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02:24:43 <imode> http://ceur-ws.org/Vol-1269/paper34.pdf found this one. it details the same stuff but also includes an implementation of a general CL interpreter within wang tiles by way of a turing machine encoding, similar to your's, int-e.
02:25:47 <imode> so to me it details two approaches: compiling CL terms to their corresponding tilesets, and interpreting an encoding of CL with a single tileset.
02:26:33 <imode> the latter is obvious. the former not so much, but I don't see why it isn't a possible thing. perhaps there even exists an implementation to go along with the paper. I'll try to track one down.
02:43:49 <b_jonas> Hm, wang tiles correspond quite closely to 1-d nondet cellular automata. I'm not sure if I realized that yet or not. That actually explains why wang tiles are considered powerful, in the sense that they can do hard to predict things with just few different tiles. The tiles correspond to the states of the CA, the CA has that neighborhood where each cell depends on only two cells in the past (not three),
02:44:02 <b_jonas> only the border conditions of Wang tiles are rather strange, very different from what we're used to with CAs.
02:44:43 <b_jonas> I'm not sure if I had realized that before about Wang tiles or not.
02:45:18 <b_jonas> I think I missed it because I learned about Wang tiles and then mostly forgot about it, and only later learned about how even deterministic 1D CA are so powerful.
02:45:57 <imode> yeah. there are multiple possible tilings, and it's actually pretty cool to watch a backtracking solver (starting from a seed tile) try to work out a tile by spiralling out.
02:46:29 <imode> it is possible to make fully deterministic tilings, though, which correspond to fully deterministic 1D CAs.
02:46:40 <imode> the specific literature eludes me at the moment.
02:47:53 <b_jonas> imode: sure, because a nondet CA is strictly more powerful than a deterministic CA
02:48:05 <b_jonas> that's usually the way we define nondeterminisitc variants of things
02:48:33 <imode> that's not at all true.
02:49:06 <imode> the fact that a nondeterministic TM can be simulated within a deterministic TM and vice versa.
02:49:11 <imode> the same goes for CAs.
02:49:27 <b_jonas> that's not what I'm saying
02:49:28 <imode> nondeterministic TMs are not more powerful than deterministic TMs.
02:49:39 <b_jonas> I'm only saying one dimension
02:50:03 <b_jonas> that the deterministic thingy can be translated to a nondeterministic thingy easilyi
02:50:46 <imode> nondeterministic TMs can be pretty easily converted to deterministic TMs.
02:51:01 <b_jonas> imode: no, that's backwards
02:51:52 <imode> how is that backwards.
02:53:57 <b_jonas> imode: um, there's probably some terminology problem here
02:54:04 <imode> nondeterministic TMs can be converted to deterministic TMs via dovetailing, which isn't that hard of a thing to do. they can be seen simply as a class of machines that utilize the dovetailing technique.
02:54:38 <imode> I can sort of see what you mean if you say that nondeterministic TMs can be seen as taking deterministic TMs as a subset.
02:54:51 <imode> but I can invert that and say that nondeterministic TMs are really just a specific subclass of TMs.
02:55:02 <imode> s/subclass of TMs./subclass of deterministic TMs.
02:56:12 <b_jonas> imode: um yes, but the dovetailing is still much harder in general than converting the other way, from a determinisitc TM to a nondeterministic TM, for which you don't need dovetailing, only some trivial transformation
02:56:48 <b_jonas> the specific transformation of course depends on how exactly you define the TM, but then so does the other direction
02:56:58 <b_jonas> (how you define TM, and how you define nondeterministic TM)
02:57:00 <imode> like I said, I can invert the relation and say that nondeterministic TMs are just classes of deterministic TMs in which you want to phrase parallel computations.
02:57:08 <imode> or pseudorandom choice.
02:57:16 <imode> between multiple branches.
02:57:39 <b_jonas> it's more 1-D cellular automata than turing-machines that matter here, and the "dovetailing" part actually gets much easier there, mind you
02:57:48 <b_jonas> because the CAs are naturally parallel
02:58:21 <b_jonas> the hard part is just making sure that the memory of each simluated copy grows fast enough, which is what remains of the dovetailing
02:58:21 <imode> I'm not sure they are, but they _do_ lend themselves pretty naturally to parallel evaluation methods.
02:58:58 <imode> like I get what you're saying: nondeterministic TMs are harder to phrase as deterministic TMs because of the extra overhead.
02:59:16 <imode> but I can make the same argument that simulating a game of chess is hard on a deterministic TM rather than a gameboard with a couple of pieces and some parallel rewrite rules.
02:59:40 <imode> it's not a fault of the concept of deterministic TMs, but it's just a class of machines.
03:01:26 <imode> your choice of model defines what kinds of computations are easy and what kinds are hard.
03:05:01 <b_jonas> imode: wait, are you saying that the paper that translates the combinatorial logic evaluation to Wang tiles uses such a transformation that can make the Wang tile pattern infinite in some significant way (not periodic, nor even some more complicated pattern that's easy to describe in a finite way), even if the evaluation tree of the combinatorial logic is finite?
03:05:51 <imode> not sure what'cha mean, could you rephrase that? having a hard time parsing stuff.
03:07:13 <b_jonas> imode: um, if you have a set of Wang tiles, there are at least two questions you can ask. (1) one question is whether they can tile a rectangle with adjacent edges identified (eg. a flat torus), which is more or less the same as asking whether it tiles the plane in a periodic way;
03:07:31 <b_jonas> (2) the other question is whether the tiles tile the plane, not necessarily in a periodic way.
03:09:49 <imode> ah. what I was really just saying is that, using their scheme, it's possible to generate a set of Wang tiles that correspond to terms and subterms (and applications of them) within a certain system of combinators. so small applications of combinators generate other small applications of combinators. these are always finite: one particular string of combinator applications generates another string of
03:09:49 <imode> combinator applications, and each string can be taken as a single object or multiple objects being applied to eachother.
03:09:51 <b_jonas> these two questions are essentially different: the first one is computable with the wang tiles as input, the second one is not.
03:10:13 <b_jonas> this is magic that depends on the periodic bounding combinations. whether the wang tiles tile a rectangle with all zero edges isn't computable.
03:10:19 <b_jonas> if I understand correctly.
03:10:33 <b_jonas> so I guess maybe there are three different questions, not two.
03:10:34 <imode> whether there exists tilings at all for certain tilesets is undecidable, yeah.
03:11:21 <imode> so, the key here is this: we can represent subterms like (SKK) as single terms. any particular combinatory term is guaranteed to generate some particular set of subterms, and we can consider this set finite and use it to build up other terms.
03:11:47 <b_jonas> so my question is essentially, if the combinatorial logic expression has a finite evaluation, then what kind of tiling do you get from that, if you translate it using what the article does? a tiling of the torus, of the plane, of a rectangle with zero borders, or something else?
03:11:57 <imode> for any combinatory logic formula, we can generate a set of wang tiles from it such that the tiling of those Wang tiles matches up with the reduction of _that single particular combinatory logic formula_.
03:12:18 <imode> well, that's the thing. the tiling varies based on the expression you wanna evaluate.
03:12:22 <b_jonas> and of course whether this transformation is one for which you don't need to compute the entire evaluation tree in advance.
03:12:28 <imode> because the tiles change from expression to expression.
03:12:38 <imode> (SKK)S has a different set of tiles, for example, than (SKK)K.
03:13:13 <imode> but the set of tiles is finite. and even if you include something like the Y combinator, or expressions that don't reduce to normal form, _you still have a finite set of tiles_.
03:13:48 <b_jonas> imode: wait, so it's a "cheating" transformation that does the turing-complete step of evaluating the term in advance?
03:14:18 <imode> not exactly, no. unless you consider a C compiler reducing things down to assembly a cheating transformation.
03:14:35 <imode> that's essentially their method.
03:15:10 <imode> no reductions are being performed beforehand.
03:15:21 <b_jonas> as in, do they basically take the infinite tileset of all possible combinators, or perhaps all possible combinators with a normal form or some such, and then if there's a finite evaluation, then obviously there's only finitely many combinators that appear in that evaluation, but you have to do the full evaluation first to determine that set.
03:15:56 <imode> you don't have to do the full evaluation to determine the set from what I can see.
03:16:06 <imode> like, look at page 9.
03:17:00 <imode> sorry, let me relink you.
03:17:02 <b_jonas> you mentioned at least two
03:17:20 <imode> http://ceur-ws.org/Vol-1032/paper-01.pdf
03:17:24 <b_jonas> though I'll have to go to bed very soon, but we'll have the logs
03:17:43 <imode> so, they broke down a particular combinatory term, (((K(S(KK)(S(KK)I))a)b)c)d, into subterms.
03:17:56 <imode> much like you'd break down a particular textual term into a graph of subterms, right?
03:18:48 <imode> T6, for example, is KK, and there are two places in that formula where KK is located.
03:20:14 <imode> you can then show, by way of the schema on page 6 (which I am still studying on how to use properly), that each subterm corresponds to a set of introductions, folds, unfolds, connections (which propagate terms forward) and terminals (which represent the end of a computation).
03:21:21 <b_jonas> imode: but that's one particular term. isn't this something that should apply to any combinatorial logic expression?
03:21:49 <imode> correct, but you need to generate a _new tileset_ for every expression you want to evaluate.
03:22:39 <b_jonas> page 9 seems uninformative, most of it is a huge figure, but let me look at before that too
03:22:50 <imode> the _second_ version of the paper I linked shows a _general_ CL interpreter, which employs the use of a turing machine.
03:22:58 <imode> which can work for any CL expression.
03:23:58 <imode> http://ceur-ws.org/Vol-1269/paper34.pdf the second version.
03:24:31 <imode> so they effectively describe two approaches: one in which you compile a particular CL formula down to a set of wang tiles, and then use the tiling to compute the result of the reduction of that formula...
03:25:06 <imode> and the other in which you have to start with an interpreter of CL within Wang tiles encoded as a turing machine evaluating CL terms.
03:25:39 <b_jonas> from pages 5 and 6, I think the error in the paper (or one significant error, at least) is exactly what int-e said
03:26:08 <int-e> yeah and it doesn't work because the reduction isn't prepared to deal with arguments that are longer than a single character.
03:26:17 <int-e> ("it" being the Turing Machine)
03:26:51 <imode> not sure where you're getting that, int-e.
03:26:55 <b_jonas> int-e: either that, or it is prepared to deal with it by creating new tiles for each reduction of combinatorial terms that ever occurs in the evaluation
03:26:57 <int-e> These people don't know what they're doing at the theoretical end of their work. They *may* know something about DNA computing and Wang tiles though I'm skeptical about that.
03:27:14 <imode> y'know, why don't you try backing up your statements instead of needlessly bashing people.
03:27:25 <imode> if they're wrong, diagram it in clear wording.
03:27:38 <int-e> imode: I'm looking at page 6 and there's no bracket handling in the reduction for K, I or S, except that S *inserts* brackets somewhere.
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03:28:15 <imode> they don't require bracket handling because they're not reducing a textual form of a CL expression.
03:28:31 <b_jonas> imode: I'm suspicious about the DNA computing too. that's like the people who claim that soap bubbles or protein folding can efficiently solve NP problems, because *in practice* the possible results of protein folding or soap bubbles can be guessed well from a minimization problem
03:28:36 <imode> they've extracted common subterms (like you would using graph reduction).
03:28:50 <int-e> imode: All you have to do is try running the TM on K(KI)K and see that it gets stuuck in state TK.
03:29:05 <imode> int-e: can you provide an example tileset which shows that?
03:29:21 <imode> they're not encoding a TM, by the by.
03:29:31 <imode> well, in the first paper, and in the first section of the second.
03:29:35 <b_jonas> heck, int-e is probably right, those tiles do seem to explicitly assume that the application is associative, even if each of those colors can represent complicated terms
03:30:22 <int-e> imode: (\f. f f) (\f x p. p x (f f (S x))) S will require an infinite tile set. have fun doing the abstraction elimination...
03:30:25 <imode> b_jonas: DNA computing in this regard builds Wang tiles out of DNA molecules.
03:30:34 <int-e> I'm DONE. Good night.
03:30:37 <imode> and has actually been demonstrated. not a fan of the approach.
03:30:49 <imode> int-e: gooodnight. you've provided nothing.
03:31:25 <b_jonas> imode: right, but the real DNA won't actually compute full non-deterministic problems, just like how the reil proteins won't magically fold into the optimal energy arrangements
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03:32:34 <imode> lots of hostility with a lack of evidence. for a place where unconventional computing methods are accepted, there's quite a bit of hostility.
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03:46:23 <oerjan> . o O ( must resist temptation to look at the pdf to find out if imode or int-e is right )
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03:57:10 <oerjan> imode: just from viewing the discussion here, i suspect int-e is at the point where he considers the error so obvious that it feels like an insult to expect him to write out the counterexample in detail.
03:57:53 <oerjan> as in, he has a general idea why it _cannot_ work but it's a pain to write out.
03:58:08 <imode> then there's nothing more to discuss, as noted by him.
03:59:09 <int-e> To add insult to the injury: if you restrict the redexes of SKI calculus to a finite set then you get a ground term rewrite system, for which reachability is decidable; hence it's no longer Turing complete.
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04:00:15 <imode> if you're not going to go into any further detail I'm pretty much done as well.
04:00:27 <imode> no need to watch people trash other people's work.
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04:01:19 <int-e> But yes, I'm totally unwilling to work out the counterexample in any detail because Wang tiles are not the right level of abstraction to work on. I've given the high-level reason further above: Since the full redex is encoded in a Wang tile, and there are reductions for which there are infinitely many distinct redexes, a finite set cannot be enough.
04:01:52 <imode> a full redex _is not_ encoded in a wang tile. complexes and subredexes are.
04:02:20 <int-e> You're wrong. ("redex" refers to the subterm that is headed by the K or S being contracted)
04:02:35 <imode> "You're wrong." "That's trash."
04:02:48 <imode> I mean, are you going to go into any kind of detail whatsoever.
04:03:15 <int-e> Yeah. I'm angry at this point, because you have shown no evidence of actually doing any fucking work yourself.
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04:03:49 <imode> how someone can get so emotional over something so irrelevant is beyond me. hope he's alright.
04:04:21 <imode> like, if I'm wrong, perfect, I didn't write the damn paper.
04:05:08 <imode> hell I'm even trying to work out a tileset for his counterexample, which seems like a reasonable approach.
04:05:19 <imode> hope he feels better when he comes back.
04:06:40 <oerjan> if he's right then evaluation should get stuck when one of those newly constructed redexes (that aren't represented in the tiles) has to be reduced.
04:08:24 <imode> I agree with him. I'm trying to follow the methods they used for constructing factorial near the bottom of the paper.
04:10:18 <imode> they give a series of tuples where each tuple corresponds to a wang tile. each side of a tile corresponds to a subterm, and from what I saw, subterms can be shared. I'm not sure how K(KI)K leads to a redex that can't be represented (or hasn't been generated) as a tile.
04:10:23 <imode> or as a series of tiles.
04:11:37 <oerjan> the K(KI)K example was meant for the TM construction, i suspect
04:11:50 <imode> ah. I don't really care about that bit.
04:12:14 <imode> it's not really interesting. the compilation bit, now _that's_ interesting.
04:13:02 <imode> I'll have to draw out the factorial tiles tomorrow.
04:13:34 <imode> they introduce extra convenience combinators related to pairs and naturals, but give no tiles that correspond to them.
04:14:27 <imode> ahhh, nevermind, those are schemes, not actual tilesets.
04:14:46 <imode> meaning you stick whatever numbers you want in the subscripts and out pop your tiles. _that_ makes sense.
04:14:58 <oerjan> i think the (\f. f f) (\f x p. p x (f f (S x))) S example was for the compilation thing, although i suspect p is unnecessary here...
04:15:16 <oerjan> so (\f. f f) (\f x. x (f f (S x))) S
04:15:48 <imode> is the gist just "generate an infinite series of applications like S(S(S..."?
04:16:16 <imode> or am I missing something.
04:16:44 <imode> because from what I can see, there's no issue in doing something like that.
04:16:54 <oerjan> well also to do it in such a way that the arguments passed to functions have to grow.
04:17:24 <imode> there's nothing in here that says that you have to represent things like that as a single tile: in fact, that's not the case at all.
04:17:29 <oerjan> so that they cannot be something that is already encoded as a single tile
04:18:08 <imode> correct: the structure of the terms is incidental, based on how the terms pair. you're not shoving entire trees into single tiles, otherwise you _would_ need infinite tiles.
04:18:28 <imode> but you _can_ extract commonly found subtrees and use them to form larger applications.
04:18:56 <imode> which if I'm drawing this correctly, the addition example does.
04:19:19 <oerjan> imode: ok, but can it reduce something like S x y z, where x,y and z are _not_ subterms of the original expression?
04:19:45 <imode> yes, because you can construct the subterms that _aren't_ in the original expression _from_ subterms in the original expression.
04:20:03 <imode> at least from what I can see.
04:20:58 <imode> like their tiles and reductions reflect subterm sharing.
04:21:04 <oerjan> imode: you can construct them, but does reduction work for them?
04:21:16 <imode> yeah, looks like it. otherwise naturals would break down almost instantly.
04:22:18 <imode> http://ceur-ws.org/Vol-1032/paper-01.pdf trying to draw out and navigate page 13 of this PDF.
04:23:22 <imode> the footnote on that page details that n and m are essentially "pre-selected numbers", so fill in the naturals and generate your tiles from this schema.
05:11:50 <oerjan> imode: ok i browsed through some of the pdf. assuming you're not meant to "evaluate ahead" to find tile colors, as far as i can see, there is no way to reduce S x y z unless at least _one_ of S x y, z, or S x y z is a tile color. Constructing an SKI expression that eventually reduces S x y z where none of x, y or z occur in the original expression is left as an exercise.
05:17:11 <oerjan> or more generally, you cannot ever reduce an application if it is not equivalent to an original tile color or the application of a pair of tile colors.
05:17:54 <imode> that sounds about right to me.
05:17:57 <oerjan> which means you cannot, say, construct an infinite list of numbers.
05:18:39 <oerjan> (say, lazy list of factorials)
05:18:51 <imode> I'll have to try that.
05:21:12 <oerjan> that monoid thing also looks a bit grating - it seems to me that you could easily get into a situation where evaluation confuses a b (c d) with a (b c) d
05:21:39 <imode> I tried diving down the rabbit hole with that.
05:24:10 <oerjan> although i'm a little unsure whether the "sound computation grid" property is supposed to help with that
05:26:26 <oerjan> hm actually it _does_ seem to be intended to do that
05:27:48 <oerjan> essentially it enforces a kind of parenthesization by dividing up the grid into non-interacting parts.
05:29:56 <oerjan> (how they expect DNA to enforce that property i dunno ;P)
05:31:07 <imode> the DNA stuff is actually plausible: you can form small DNA tiles by forming two DNA strands in such a way that the base pairs encode the colors of the edges, and only bind to base pairs.
05:31:16 <imode> that ironically is the most plausible point of this, because it's been done.
05:33:03 <oerjan> yes, i mean the sub-grid property, not the individual tiles
05:33:17 <imode> sorry, reading comprehension failed me.
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07:13:26 <zzo38> Now in this GURPS I can tell who is the shapeshifter because they have "X" on their forehead. Next, I have to stop them from writing "X" on everyone else's forehead too!
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10:16:56 <imode> after some careful consideration that paper was full of shit.
10:17:21 <imode> I tried working some of the tilings out and yeah, the people above me were right.
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10:58:39 <int-e> imode: Three remarks about why I might core than I maybe should. a) this is essentially in my current area of research (term rewriting, tree automata (which feature in decidability results for ground term rewrite systems; http://tata.gforge.inria.fr/ may be the best available source on that topic)) b) I hate to see people wasting their time with wrong claims c) it becomes frustrating when I fail...
10:58:45 <int-e> ...to convey that information efficiently, ending up wasting even more time rather than helping.
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10:59:42 <imode> int-e: it's fine, you're good! I concluded independently that it's not a good paper.
11:00:25 <imode> there's some woeful underspecification or lack of understanding on their part.
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12:43:19 <b_jonas> int-e: it doesn't get stuck on (KI). there are tiles to open the parenthesis. anywhere, even in a left term. they really seem to believe that the application is associative.
12:44:11 <b_jonas> int-e: also, not only do they add a color for every combinator calculus term, but also a tile for every combinator calculus reduction. not just one step reduction, but any reduction. so you can do any finite computation in one tile.
12:44:52 <b_jonas> that latter part is a fixable bug, but I think it illustrates how the authors don't understand what they're talking about.
12:44:59 <int-e> b_jonas: as oerjan suggested, that was for the Turing Machine in the second paper.
12:45:58 <b_jonas> int-e: that may make a bit more sense, because a TM can actually be simluated as a 1-D CA in a more straightforward way than the, uh, monoid of combinator calculus
12:46:24 <b_jonas> the "monoid" thing confused me because they don't explicitly state what operation it's a monoid over, but it does become clear by page 6
12:46:56 <int-e> ("that" referring to the K(KI)<some combinator>)
12:48:32 <b_jonas> int-e: and yes, I agree that you can't work out a proper counterexample, because the paper is vague enough without precise definitions and proofs that you can't point out more specifically than that where the error is
12:50:43 <b_jonas> int-e: the part where they have single-tile reduction for every calculation is great, because if they actually implemented that, it would let them get the right result in a randomized imlementation that looks for random small tilings, as opposed to a true nondeterministic implementation, so the DNA computation would run trivially with just one transformation from the input to the result and a lot of
12:52:48 <b_jonas> wtf, now even oerjan looked at it? why?
12:52:57 <b_jonas> (still looking at the logs)
12:53:58 <HackEso> CDOP is OCPD, except with the letters in the *proper* order.
12:55:25 <int-e> Put differently, he probably reached the point where he had to find out what all the ruckus was about.
12:56:29 <b_jonas> int-e: also, I verified that for both of those disconnected polyminos, there's essentially one tiling that is invariant to translation (0,8) and translation (8,0), and I know the tilings I had back when I first tried this were invariant to those. that imples that the tilings you show on grid6.png are the ones I found.
12:57:32 <b_jonas> int-e: these polyminos are significant because I think, but I'm not sure, that they're the only polyminos of 4 squares that can't tile the plane with just translations and horizontal and vertical mirrors and 180 deg rotations, you really need a 90 deg rotation or diagonal mirror
12:57:41 <b_jonas> there was an article on that, let me check
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18:04:28 <HackEso> olist 1150: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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18:36:00 <b_jonas> private fireworks are going strong
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18:43:01 <lambdabot> Local time for shachaf is Mon Dec 31 10:42:59 2018
18:44:47 <oerjan> hm xkcd's consensus new year was about a quarter hour ago
18:45:04 <oerjan> so happy new year, i guess!
18:57:33 <b_jonas> it's not yet new year, but happy new year to you as well
18:57:34 <oerjan> b_jonas: that crap paper actually has a kind of solution to the monoid confusion in the "sound computation grid" section. however, the fact that every reduction result needs to be represented on a tile clearly blows it for any expression that constructs infinitely something like the lazy list of factorials i suggested.
19:01:01 <oerjan> and yeah, i had to see if the problem with the paper was as obvious as int-e implied.
19:01:13 <oerjan> (plus, i didn't like the animosity)
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19:03:23 <imode> happy new year's eve.
19:04:04 <b_jonas> new year starts in less than four hours by the way
19:15:40 <imode> is freenode doing that newyears thing again?
19:16:29 <b_jonas> imode: I'm not sure what counts as a "that newyears thing" specifically. there's a #freenode-newyears linked from the topic of #freenode , but then, irc channels are cheap once you have a network up
19:16:43 <b_jonas> imode: do you mean sending wallops?
19:16:49 <b_jonas> or global notices or whatever?
19:17:12 <imode> the channel was what I was referring to.
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19:30:22 <oerjan> it's a common human state hth
19:30:50 <b_jonas> in NES Super Mario Bros, how many fireballs does it take to kill Bowser (without jumping on him)? I thought it took six, but https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJcAPGf0Z6A says five.
19:32:42 <b_jonas> I may be mixing it up with GB Super Mario Land, in that one it takes six fireballs to kill most of the bosses (the castle bosses are immune, and the witch is possible to kill but very hard because she despawns immediately after a hit)
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20:14:25 <oerjan> in girl genius, maxim's nose seems to be growing lately.
20:22:24 <int-e> Hmm private fireworks are illegal in the city this year... still hearing stuff though. People don't know or don't care.
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20:23:20 <b_jonas> int-e: they are legal here with strong restrictions, but most of how people use them are illegal and sometimes dangerous
20:23:50 <int-e> But I guess it's quieter than last year.
20:26:43 <oerjan> i think they're allowed in the suburbs here but not the city center
20:30:30 <int-e> it's per muncipality, and I guess it's allowed outside of cities where it's not a fire hazard.
20:33:16 <oerjan> forbidden inside the red stippled line, allowed 18:00 - 2:00 outside https://www.tbrt.no/images/artikkelbilder/ForbudssoneforfyrverkeriiTrondheim.jpg
20:34:06 * oerjan isn't even on that map, but a bit further east
20:35:12 <oerjan> (there are municipal fireworks inside the zone though)
20:36:53 <int-e> b_jonas: hah. "experts warn of illegal firecrackers"
20:37:46 <int-e> I'm used to that warning. It hasn't changed in the past 30 years.
20:38:45 <int-e> (and personally I don't even like the legal ones)
20:39:48 <arseniiv_> oerjan> hm xkcd's consensus new year was about a quarter hour ago => wow, pretty close to mine! (UTC+5)
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20:41:28 <int-e> hmm, average time zones by person? so india and china have a huge influence?
20:41:46 <int-e> (I had not seen the xkcd yet)
20:42:10 <int-e> right, median makes more sense actually
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20:49:17 <arseniiv> ah, not that close, it’s 6:30 UTC, not what I thought, so not that significant. Or contrary, more significant, as it’s further from the median and so rarer(?)
20:50:53 <b_jonas> average would be a bad idea, it may be skewed by the few people who live in mediaeval theme parks that are in timezones several centuries before most of the earth
20:51:03 <b_jonas> ok, maybe not that skewed, but still
20:55:04 <zzo38> The red line doesn't seems to enclose anything.
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21:09:40 <oerjan> zzo38: the fjord is not very flammable and so considered obviously not included hth
21:10:14 <oerjan> i suppose you could ask how far from shore a boat must be
21:15:03 <zzo38> Yes, so they should make the line enclosed so that you can know.
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21:34:12 <fizzie> "You must not set off fireworks between 11pm and 7am, except for: -- New Year’s Eve -- when the cut off is 1am"
21:35:16 <fizzie> There were a few pops when there was still daylight, which is a bit odd.
21:37:01 <b_jonas> fizzie: sure. a lot of the illegal explosives go for the sound and blowing off stupid people's hands, not for the sight.
21:37:26 <b_jonas> it's traditional for a few people to blow their own hands off every New Year
21:38:41 <b_jonas> people are discouraged from that both because the kinds of explosives used for that are illegal and if you blow your hand off you're almost certainly discovered, and because spending New Year in the hospital is unpleasant, but people still do it
21:39:15 <fizzie> There's far more fireworks here on Bonfire Night (aka Guy Fawkes Night) than on New Year's.
21:47:01 <b_jonas> Anyone in the +0200 timezone (Finland or Romania)? Should we do a small countdown then?
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21:51:39 <b_jonas> Because if not, then I'll reserve the celebration for the +0100 and leave some for the +0000, -0500, -0800 ones.
21:51:56 <b_jonas> Anyway, I'll prepare the New Year sausages.
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22:00:11 <b_jonas> For anyone with +0100 timzone offset, happy New Year!
22:02:44 <oerjan> . o O ( i think you're off by one again )
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22:59:37 <b_jonas> And now the New Year is coming up in our timezone offset, the actual +0100 (France, Germany, Poland, Norway, Hungary)
22:59:50 <b_jonas> And now the New Year is coming up in our timezone offset very soon, the actual +0100 (France, Germany, Poland, Norway, Hungary)
23:02:17 * int-e listens to money going up in smoke.
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23:51:33 <b_jonas> In the +0000 timezone offset (UK), New Year will start in about 9 minutes.
23:52:09 <fizzie> Not much action on the fireworks front.
23:56:09 <fizzie> There was more half an hour ago. Maybe everyone's watching the official ones.
23:56:23 <fizzie> (Sadly our windows are to the wrong direction.)
23:58:49 <b_jonas> fizzie: use the power of the internet to watch the official ones!
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