00:00:15 <b_jonas> Happy New Year, +0000 timezone offset (UK)!
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00:05:19 <fizzie> Happy new misspellings of dates in forms.
00:06:11 <fizzie> Was a bit more boomery at midnight. A lot of people on the banks of Thames, I think.
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00:18:43 <HackEso> The password of the month is "SCALNATUAS".
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00:19:57 <b_jonas> yeah, we should change that
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00:22:32 <b_jonas> `learn The password of the month is "overreachtorridbittenmandible".
00:22:34 <HackEso> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is "overreachtorridbittenmandible".
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05:09:47 <imode> happy new year, east coast.
05:10:13 <pikhq> Only a sad old year for the west coast, though.
05:11:39 <imode> no wonder I'm sad. :(
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08:08:44 <imode> happy new year! :D
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08:10:16 <zzo38> O, it is same time zone
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22:49:16 <b_jonas> `slashlearn This FTP site//“This FTP site” is the name of Oleg's website categorizing articles about functional programming "http://okmij.org/ftp/".
22:49:18 <HackEso> Learned 'this ftp site': “This FTP site” is the name of Oleg's website categorizing articles about functional programming "http://okmij.org/ftp/".
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23:36:09 <b_jonas> `bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20190101.html
23:36:10 <HackEso> bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20190101.html: b_jonas
23:37:04 <esowiki> [[YEOOIIOOIOA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58916&oldid=57705 * Arseniiv * (+1) /* Examples */ inverts reverses, silly me
23:37:56 <b_jonas> `ehlist http://eheroes.smackjeeves.com/comics/2722337/oops-my-bad/
23:37:56 <HackEso> ehlist http://eheroes.smackjeeves.com/comics/2722337/oops-my-bad/: b_jonas
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02:46:38 <oerjan> i don't think the spaceship is going to like your idea, sam
02:52:11 <oerjan> he doesn't seem to come here any more
03:29:09 <zzo38> In some computer games you can shoot only once and can't shoot again until your previous bullet/arrow is gone, but now I found a game with a variant of that, where you can shoot as often as you want but the previous arrow disappears if you shoot again
03:29:22 <zzo38> (Also it says "delayed" instead of "paused")
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06:47:46 <zzo38> It seem Fossil wiki doesn't treat "¼" as a actual HTML entity code even though "£" works.
06:52:31 <zzo38> (However, "¼" can be used instead of "¼" and that works OK.)
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10:42:51 <esowiki> [[Pepe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58917&oldid=58038 * RealUndefined * (+22)
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13:28:05 <ais523> re: the whole Wang tiles / combinatory logic thing, it strikes me that ():^ Underload could be implemented in a very similar system; it's associative, and there are only finitely many possible distinct stack elements
13:28:17 <ais523> so you genuinely could create tiles for all of them in advance
13:29:46 <ais523> of course, that language is basically just an encoding of a counter machine, which would be easy enough to implement directly…
13:30:26 <ais523> you could implement ~ and ! easily too, the hard commands are a and *
13:30:40 <ais523> because they can generate interesting new sorts of stack elements
13:31:29 <ais523> hmm, now I'm thinking about "postfix Underload"
13:32:49 <ais523> where your primitives are a * : ^ ! (a) (*) (:) (^) (!)
13:33:17 <ais523> and (…) is converted to reverse-Polish notation, e.g. (a(!)*) would be written as (a) (!) a * (*) *
13:34:22 <ais523> most of this could be implemented very easily using "local" rewrite rules (i.e. ones that don't try to pattern match against (…) or the like)
13:34:49 <ais523> the hard cases are ! and : applied to a and *
13:34:54 <ais523> but I'm not sure they're /that/ hard
13:35:38 <ais523> well, a ! is trivial, it's just !
13:36:21 <ais523> so the hard case is : applied to the result of a or *
13:43:12 <ais523> let's add an additional primitive pair _ and (_), with the rule that for any stack elements [X] and [Y], [X] [Y] _ is equivalent to (Y) ^ (X); this is an updated version of a primtiive I've been using a lot in Underload-based languages
13:44:37 <ais523> hmm, that doesn't obviously seem to help in a rewrite-based system
13:45:50 <ais523> but perhaps if we put restrictions on [Y]?
13:47:05 <ais523> * [X] [Y] _ is equivalent to [Y] ^ [X]
13:49:12 <ais523> actually, I think the primitive we want has sligtly different functionality
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14:00:38 <ais523> …or maybe we need two of them, _ and ~
14:01:34 <ais523> err, typo, a [Y] ~ is [Y] ~ a
14:03:56 <ais523> but * [Y] ~ isn't easy, I think ~ is the wrong primitive too
14:06:01 <ais523> I guess what I want is something that pushes a command under one stack element (like _ does), but can be repeated to push the command under two stack elements, etc.
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14:26:54 <ais523> the problem is that that wouldn't be concatenative
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00:11:41 <oerjan> <ais523> where your primitives are a * : ^ ! (a) (*) (:) (^) (!) <-- you only need ^ without parens, i'm sure this variant has been discussed before...
00:13:01 <oerjan> in the context of "underload" with only finitely many basic commands
00:15:23 <ais523> oerjan: this isn't an attempt at TCness, but an attempt at implementing full Underload via string rewrites
00:15:49 <ais523> not generalized string rewrites either, literal "search for all instances of string X and replace them with string Y"
00:19:26 <ais523> code like (:)^ will probably need an unescaped : in the internal state at some point…
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00:22:56 <oerjan> you seem to have dropped ~ although that's theoretically expressible
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00:24:51 <ais523> actually I've moved back towards including ~ over ^, and adding an additional primitive < which is equivalent to a*^
00:29:07 <ais523> something I've noticed with both 7 and now this is that the outermost level of escaping seems to act differently from the others in Underload-alikes
00:30:29 <ais523> say, (~) doesn't act much like ~ but does act a lot like ((~)), and you can freely exchange escaping levels and as except at the outermost level; (((~))), ((~))a, (~)aa are all equivalent, but ~aaa isn't
00:31:16 <ais523> so you can deal with highly escaped primitives by storing them internally in the (~)aa form but you still need a separate ~ primitive
00:33:09 <oerjan> if i didn't already know this is TC in a different way (because of :()^), i'd suspect you'd hit "cn't get more than a PDA" problems
00:34:06 <ais523> I think I have a workable solution already, it's just really ugly; I'm going to try to implement it and see if it works
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00:37:48 <oerjan> not sure whether to keep the webchat open or not, this connection is still horribly laggy
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00:40:12 <oerjan> anyway, i don't think a PDA can swap two large sections of stack
00:41:00 <ais523> this is more like a cellular automaton than a PDA, though
00:41:06 <ais523> replacements don't have to happen at the rightmost end of the string
00:41:46 <oerjan> right. but swapping two large sections is still awkward, i'd thikn you need something simulating a counter
00:53:41 <ais523> yes, I think you need that too
00:55:47 <oerjan> ah The Whiteboard comic asks the inevitable question
00:56:27 <int-e> http://paste.debian.net/1058394/ is a potential swapping mechanism that uses a copy of the string alphabet in order to be cute.
00:56:59 <int-e> (and... uh I should probably not reuse | like that in the end)
00:57:58 <oerjan> i'm not sure, but i have a kind of impression that ais523 wants all the tokens to be a tleast nominally equivalent to underload programs
00:58:00 <int-e> (I suspect this is awkward to set up)
00:58:26 <int-e> uh, no extra symbols at all?
00:58:33 <ais523> you need extra symbols
00:58:51 <oerjan> (i guess it's just me, then :P)
00:58:51 <ais523> but ideally I'd like to keep things fully concatenative
00:59:02 <ais523> so it's basically just "Underload with a bunch of extra symbols that mean Underloadish things"
00:59:47 <ais523> http://nethack4.org/pastebin/20.txt
00:59:53 <ais523> probably contains mistakes
01:01:15 <ais523> x and y are placeholders for any Underload primitive; | is the counter (and the only not-fully-concatenative primitive); [x] is equivalent to (x)~
01:01:56 <ais523> also ("))S is an abomination but there's no way to write "output a closing parenthesis" in Underload :-) (also that line's wrong because it outputs the opening parenthesis too early)
01:07:58 <oerjan> you can't really do S as a side effect in a parallel string rewriting regime...
01:08:26 <oerjan> you need to collect them until the end, or the like
01:09:05 <ais523> yes, collect them at the left end I think
01:09:18 <int-e> but maybe you can make things simpler by adopting a leftmost strategy
01:10:47 <int-e> (and I suspect it's still hard enough *with* such concessions)
01:13:57 <int-e> (I write "I suspect" because Underload is a language I've avoided looking into so far.)
01:18:10 <oerjan> this makes my head hurt. maybe later.
01:23:45 <ais523> int-e: the problem is that Underload's "natural" evaluation order is outermost, with leftmost as a tiebreak
01:24:07 <ais523> if you go purely leftmost, programs like ((:^):^)! which should be no-ops will get stuck in an infinit eloop
01:24:25 <ais523> but "outermost" is hard to define in a pure string rewriter
01:28:46 <oerjan> well you aren't putting inner levels explicitly in this syntax, so they shouldn't match anyway
01:30:07 <ais523> in this syntax it'd be (:)(^)*a(:)*(^)*!, so yes, no match
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02:07:39 <oerjan> my internet connection sucks today :(
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02:40:29 <oerjan> *S should be [S]<S, i think
02:46:11 <oerjan> @tell ais523 see logs for a couple errors
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03:15:33 <oerjan> silly me, killed the wrong tmux process
03:19:11 * oerjan restarted the router to see if it helps connection - nah.
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05:01:52 <oerjan> i'm so lagged tmux misinterpreted my arrow keys
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06:00:46 <imode> I dreamt of a particular topological schema for computation, where the state space of a model of computation is modeled as a particular surface, and an individual computation is a walk/trajectory along that surface.
06:04:06 <zzo38> OK, do you have a detail?
06:05:42 <imode> not particularly. the dream didn't include the method.
06:07:44 <zzo38> Now you should try to make up the method.
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11:55:22 <wob_jonas> ais523: or you could implement a small one-tape turing machine instead
11:55:51 <wob_jonas> postfix Underload => isn't 7 trying to be that?
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16:46:35 <HackEso> ysaclist 83: boily shachaf
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17:22:01 <oren> god the internet at work today is fucked beyond belief, is San Francisco literally on fire rn?!
17:23:16 <oren> I'm getting massive packet loss and I'm pretty sure it's not our fault
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21:23:28 <b_jonas> ais523: I have a question about that reduction thing where you try to find some underload-like or 7-like thing with a limited number of elemnents
21:23:37 <b_jonas> I mean a limited number of possible values
21:24:31 <ais523> also, 7 has a similar inspiration but a rather different set of primitives
21:24:52 <lambdabot> oerjan said 18h 38m 41s ago: see logs for a couple errors
21:24:59 <b_jonas> if those values are ones like you listed, where the parenthisized ones only have one element in the parenthesis, then wouldn't that mean you can only ever have one element on the right stack (code stack), and so you can't be TC, but only as powerful as a one-stack machine?
21:25:37 <b_jonas> I think you need at least one value that has two things in a parenthesis
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21:26:00 <ais523> Underload's stack elements have internal structure
21:26:19 <ais523> "PDAs are not Turing-complete" is only correct in cases where there are a finite number of possible elements in each stack slot
21:26:54 <b_jonas> also, I don't understand why you want underload-like in first place, when you already know small complete one-tape turing machines
21:26:55 <ais523> although in cases where you have infinitely many choices for a stack slot, the power of the language depends on which operations you have for manipulating stack elements
21:27:09 <ais523> b_jonas: remember the discussion about combinator calculus on Wang tiles a few days ago?
21:27:11 <ais523> I was inspired by that
21:28:19 <b_jonas> those wang tiles are almost exactly the same as 1-D non-deterministic Cellular automaton with the neighborhood where every cell is depends on two past cells (eg. the same one in the past and the one to its left in the past)
21:28:51 <ais523> and from two-past cell cellular automata it's trivial to produce three-past-cell cellular automata
21:28:58 <b_jonas> it's not exacly the same because the boundary conditions differ, plus there's more than one question you can ask about the Wang tiles and more than one question you can ask about a CA, with different boundary conditions, and the two don't map nicely
21:29:14 <ais523> the nondeterminism is interesting, but I don't know of any languages which are TC /because/ they're nondeterministic (maybe there is one though?)
21:29:20 <b_jonas> but they are basically 1-D non-deterministic CA with the alphabet and evolution rules of your choice
21:29:33 <ais523> actually, Prolog-without-recursion is I think only TC due to nondeterminism
21:29:57 <b_jonas> anyway, these can emulate any 1-tape Turing machine easily, so you shouldn't feel like you're restricted to underload-like constructs
21:30:04 <b_jonas> haven't you done research on small Turing machines?
21:30:51 <ais523> several weeks ago I was looking into trying to make a new record for Turing machines that are universal starting from a finitely initialized tape (i.e. infinite seas of symbol 0 either side of an arbitrarily initialized section)
21:30:59 <ais523> that's where https://esolangs.org/wiki/Echo_Tag came from
21:32:56 <b_jonas> I don't know when the nondeterminism helps in being turing-complete. obviously it can help make your program exponentially more efficient, and it can also help you reduce the alphabet a bit if you want a small machine
21:34:56 <ais523> you can imagine a Prolog-alike that uses some nondeterminism implementation other than backtracking, and has no predicates; if you give it bignums and arithmetic on them, then it's TC, but wouldn't be without the nondeterminism
21:35:17 <ais523> basically for the same reason that Diophantine equations are TC
21:35:31 <ais523> this doesn't seem like a very easy computational model to implement on Wang tiles, though
21:39:29 <b_jonas> hmm, maybe it's not exactly the same
21:39:45 <b_jonas> but still, you can implement a nondeterministic 1-D CA in Wang tiles
21:40:05 <b_jonas> they're close enough in power
21:42:33 <b_jonas> let's say they bitranslae with only polynomial blowup in program size
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21:43:08 <ais523> I think the blowup is constant, not even linear
21:43:35 <ais523> oh, program size, not program speed/memory usage
21:43:46 <ais523> in that case, yes, polynomial
21:44:48 <b_jonas> oh, and you still have only two stacks: the nondeterminism doesn't help you copy or swap or reverse or sort or merge vectors, you have to solve crossing with meticulous pairs of swapping rules for every possible pair of values on the left and right
21:46:27 <b_jonas> ais523: I care about program size. eg. see how I wrote my compilation rules to Blindfolded arithmetic such that they avoid exponentially long sequences of a=a+1
21:46:49 <ais523> you can probably get only a linear blowup via encoding data in binary as it moves
21:47:27 <b_jonas> mind you, it's a cellular automata, so it's parallel, so you can swap or reverse or merge vectors in linear time, not quadratic, and sort vectors in linear time in an easy way too
21:47:28 <ais523> because then the "every pair of possible values" has only 0 and 1 to consider as one of the possible pair elements
21:47:51 <b_jonas> sort quickly because it's nondeterministic: keep swapping then verify that it's sorted
21:48:16 <ais523> the fastest known parallel sorts, even deterministic ones, are O(log n)
21:48:30 <ais523> but a cellular automaton is limited by speed of light, thus is O(n)
21:49:17 <b_jonas> it's just that the sort code gets pretty eays
21:50:34 <ais523> that reminds me of https://esolangs.org/wiki/Precognition
21:50:48 <ais523> I wrote some sorting code in that (although it sorted an array as it was produced, not an input array)
21:56:17 <ais523> hmm, I guess the algorithm using there is best described as quantum bogosort!
21:56:34 <ais523> (it retroactively cancels out the current branch of program execution if the array isn't sorted)
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22:08:31 <b_jonas> I think you could start from a one-tape turing machine, or two-stack machine with finite control, and translate it to an underload program in such a way that only a finite set of values is possible. but you don't need that translation to just get a 1-D CA or Wang tiles.
22:09:28 <b_jonas> So in some sense, when you asked for underload with finitely many possible values, that is rather general. Of course it doesn't allow CA-like parallelism or nondeterminism, but it's not more restricted than two-stack state machines.
22:09:56 <ais523> the ():^ TCness construction for Underload uses only a finite set of possible values (unsurprisingly, as you need * or a to create new values)
22:10:21 <ais523> what I was thinking more of was a construction that worked for full Underload directly (say, via string substitution)
22:11:13 <ais523> you could convert ( to (), a to (a)*, : to (:)*, …, ) to *a*
22:11:17 <ais523> this is basically what 7 does
22:11:18 <b_jonas> just to make sure, is it still finitely different values if you want to give it input?
22:11:32 <ais523> well Underload doesn't take input
22:11:44 <b_jonas> that's why this is a problem
22:11:51 <b_jonas> you need to embed the input to the program
22:12:04 <ais523> but it's a counter machine construction so you could give the input by initializing one of the counters to, say, 9 to the power of the input
22:12:07 <b_jonas> and I don't know how that's represented in the program after the translation to ():^
22:12:19 <b_jonas> after the translation, will you get all the input in a huge parenthesis? can you avoid that?
22:12:35 <b_jonas> even if it's a counter, that question stands
22:12:39 <ais523> the translation is from a counter machine, in that case, you need to encode the input into the initial value of one of hte counters
22:13:16 <ais523> one of the counters is a string of ^ in the program
22:13:29 <ais523> the length determines the counter value
22:13:54 <ais523> the other counter is stored by the number of times a particular element appears on the stack, again it's repeated a number of times equal to the counter value
22:14:17 <ais523> so there's no huge parenthesis involved, just a single predetermined element written multiple times
22:15:06 <b_jonas> then you can do that too instead of translating a finite state two stack machine
22:15:37 <b_jonas> that's where everything goes if you don't want the big parenthesis
22:15:40 <ais523> you don't need to go via Underload at all for this though
22:15:44 <ais523> just translate the counter machine directly
22:15:48 <b_jonas> yes, that's what I said above
22:16:11 <ais523> in this case I think you'd probably prefer the two stack machine, though, it's more efficient
22:16:16 <ais523> in fact, a Turing machine would work even better
22:16:17 <b_jonas> you can translate any tape machine directly to a CA, without underload
22:16:32 <b_jonas> and you can even translate two stacks to a nondet CA with a host of extra rules for shifting elements away
22:16:52 <b_jonas> it can be done deterministically too if you want
22:17:06 <b_jonas> it just gets slightly bigger that way
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22:52:56 <fizzie> (There's going to be an unfortunate fungot outage for the next day or so.)
22:54:50 <b_jonas> our hon. and learned friend fungot is entitled for a short rest once in a while
22:58:58 <b_jonas> as long as he works 21% of all times it's fine
22:59:11 <HackEso> fungot is our beloved channel mascot and voice of reason.
23:18:12 <b_jonas> so there's a sweet interval between --04-26 and --05-10 inclusive where it's safe to put state holidays, because it can collide with neither easter or whit sunday. that explains why --05-01 was chosen as a spring holiday with various random meanings.
23:19:16 <b_jonas> mind you, you can go a few days over the edges as long as you make sure that the collision won't happen in your lifetime
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23:48:13 <zzo38> I don't like the blank tiles in the Scrabble game are same on both sides. If you mark "0" on the corner then you can avoid this.
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01:20:15 <oerjan> @tell b_jonas the :()^!~ construction that i wrote up before removing ~ is pretty much exactly such a two-stack machine as you mention.
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01:48:41 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Brianush1 * New user account
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02:51:45 <zzo38> What exactly are you supposed to pass as the index for the XLookupKeysym and XKeycodeToKeysym functions? It says "Specifies the index into the KeySyms list for the event's KeyCode", but I don't know what index it is supposed to be.
03:03:55 <fizzie> I think I've called at least one of those functions. I believe it's the index to the list of the various keysyms attached to that specific keycode for the different combinations of modifier keys.
03:04:10 <fizzie> So with an index of 0, you'll get the entirely unshifted keysym.
03:04:44 <fizzie> In other words, the column of the "xmodmap -pk" list.
03:05:51 <fizzie> Or if not directly the column in that table, at least something related.
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03:29:11 <zzo38> How to figure out the index needed for a given set of modifier keys?
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04:11:10 <int-e> bad pun time: Building gadgets for Valiant's theorem is a permanent struggle.
04:11:58 <int-e> (This one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharp-P-completeness_of_01-permanent )
04:13:08 * oerjan valiantly swats int-e -----###
04:14:22 <shachaf> first swat in almost a month
04:14:29 <int-e> I did improve Valiant's "junction" gadget though.
04:16:01 <HackEso> Your omnidryad saddle principal ideal golfing toe-obsessed "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty evil grinch is a punctual expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it.
04:16:25 <shachaf> I was going to add "fungal overlord" but there's already a mushroom in there.
04:17:11 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Norskie7 * New user account
04:17:20 <oerjan> there isn't room for mush there
04:19:01 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58918&oldid=58876 * Norskie7 * (+183)
04:19:11 <int-e> ... But I'd like to come up with a clause gadget from scratch and I may not be able to. Hence the struggle.
04:19:47 <shachaf> int-e: Wait, computing a permanent is NP-hard?
04:19:54 <oerjan> lisp worst syntax known to man? someone's innocent...
04:20:24 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58919&oldid=58918 * Norskie7 * (+85)
04:21:49 <int-e> shachaf: Yes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toda%27s_theorem is even more mind-boggling (a #P oracle gives you all the power of the polynomial hierarchy)
04:22:37 <oerjan> . o O ( shachaf will be permanently boggled )
04:22:40 <int-e> As I learned last week.
04:22:53 <shachaf> I vaguely knew #P gave you a lot but I kind of expected computing permanent to be similar to computing determinant.
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04:24:40 <int-e> also: beware the sharp swatter -----♯♯♯
04:25:51 <HackEso> [U+266F MUSIC SHARP SIGN] [U+0050 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER P]
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04:26:37 <oerjan> hm the article you linked uses # but not the ♯P article itself
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04:30:25 <oerjan> seems a change from last year
04:31:29 <shachaf> define a computational class S
04:31:41 <shachaf> and then you can talk about things that are ß-hard
04:33:12 <oerjan> i tried to check the link to complexity zoo and that had an error from the # to ♯ substitution globally applied :P
04:33:21 <oerjan> although the zoo itself uses #
04:36:41 <int-e> https://esolangs.org/logs/
04:36:59 <HackEso> [U+1F756 ALCHEMICAL SYMBOL FOR HORSE DUNG]
04:37:02 <oerjan> good link, recommended
04:37:45 <int-e> 'twas a mere mispaste
04:38:03 <HackEso> [U+2639 WHITE FROWNING FACE]
04:39:20 <oerjan> that symbol is begging to become a sarcasm tag
04:40:19 <int-e> Well I'm content with the discovery that there is a Unicode symbol for horse shit.
04:40:57 <int-e> But yes, that works.
04:41:29 <int-e> Too bad it isn't properly displayed in my terminal.
04:41:50 <oerjan> it's in mine, unlike the frowning fac
04:43:08 <int-e> That's funny, the face is displayed (though barely recognizable)
04:43:33 <zzo38> What font do you use? I use the "fixed" font
04:43:59 <oerjan> i'm using courier new, i think
04:44:19 <zzo38> (The face is displayed if the terminal is set to UTF-8 (I do so for IRC) but the alchemical symbol for horse dung doesn't work, because it is beyond 16-bits)
04:47:13 <oerjan> i'll just claim to be making a statement that emojis are worse than horse dung twh
04:48:36 <esowiki> [[Nope.]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58920 * Areallycoolusername * (+876) Created page with "Nope is an [[esoteric programming language]] made by [[User: Areallycoolusername]]. You can code anything you would like, but the interpreter will refuse to give output. This..."
04:49:35 <int-e> The general colored glyph idea annoys me quite a bit.
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04:51:32 <zzo38> Yes, I don't like that either (or the antialiased fuzzy text, either). My proposed EnableLigatures flag would allow (among other things) astral Unicode characters (if the font is Unicode and supports any astral characters), and EnableAntialiasing would allow (among other things) colourful glyphs (and antialiasing). Both flag is off by default, so, you can avoid this
04:52:08 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58921&oldid=58844 * Areallycoolusername * (+57) /* General languages */
04:53:58 <esowiki> [[Cedar--]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58922 * Norskie7 * (+3106) Created page with "Cedar-- is an exercise in making a usable language that has the worst syntax imaginable. It was designed in December of 2018, and was implemented in the two weeks following fi..."
05:22:16 <ais523> bignum BF proven TC with only three [ and three ] instructions: https://cs.stackexchange.com/questions/102363/how-many-pairs-of-brackets-in-bf-be-sufficient-enough-to-make-it-turing-complete/102369#102369
05:22:41 <zzo38> O, that is good I didn't know that. I wanted to know that too
05:23:06 <ais523> I'm not 100% certain two is impossible
05:23:36 <ais523> you can do it with a /nesting level/ of only two (that's been on the wiki for a while) but that needs a lot more individual [ and ] instructions in the known proof
05:26:53 <ais523> note: assumes Artin's conjecture if you want to compile arbitrarily large programs directly, but you should be able to use the bundle-an-interpreter method to prove TCness even if Artin's conjecture turns out to be false
05:33:18 <oerjan> ais523: interrupted sentence: "the program is written in such a way that this"
05:36:08 <oerjan> has a primitive root 2
05:36:29 <oerjan> wtf did that include newlines
05:40:00 <oerjan> anyway, that doesn't make sense
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05:46:46 <oerjan> bah can't read this now
05:48:40 <ais523> why doesn't it make sense?
05:48:49 <ais523> we can always add on extra counters to the program
05:49:01 <ais523> so that assumption is wlog as long as there are infinitely many numbers which have 2 as a primitive root
05:50:26 <ais523> btw, there are almost certainly simpler constructions, I just hadn't thought of them at the time I wrote that answer
05:51:27 <ais523> probably using 2*(p*2**(n+k)+n) for some suitable constant k would work
05:52:23 <oerjan> anyway my brain refuses to be in math mode
05:53:40 <ais523> given what time it is, that makes sense
05:54:13 <ais523> the trick is finding a way to cycle over all the counters using only two of your three loops, whilst also ensuring all the difference between pairs of counter locations are distinct
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07:23:12 <esowiki> [[Talk:Nope.]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58923 * Salpynx * (+603) Prigoginic leap in computational complexity
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11:08:15 <wob_jonas> Quick question. Some photographers upload really high quality photos to commons, and add a note that I shouldn't reupload the file in place, if I want to improve it, I should either choose a new name or ask the uploader.
11:08:56 <wob_jonas> Is there some template or stock text to mark the opposite for some of my photos? I have some photos that could certainly be improved by some color adjustments, eg. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Orsa-rovdjurspark-tiger-0.jpg or https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Orsa-rovdjurspark-tiger-2.jpg
11:09:17 <wob_jonas> For those cases I want to mark in some way that you should feel free to improve the photo with light editing in place.
11:09:55 <wob_jonas> Mind you, for those two photos in particular, I might just edit them now, but I may want to add this text to some photos I'll upload in the future.
11:23:05 <wob_jonas> um sorry, wrong channel. I meant #wikimedia-commons
14:24:59 <wob_jonas> ais523: wow! three pairs of braces total in brainfuck?
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20:14:23 <b_jonas> oerjan: that's believable, I'll have to check that later on the wiki (re underload)
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21:01:24 <HackEso> 2019-01-04 21:01:23.709402290 +0000 UTC January 4 Friday 2019-W01-5
21:01:42 <b_jonas> my hon. and learned friend fungot, I hope you have a pleasant vacation away from this channel
21:10:28 <fizzie> "We will be seating you in the Afternoon Tea."
21:10:40 <fizzie> I hope that's not literal.
21:14:24 <lambdabot> *** "tea" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
21:14:27 <lambdabot> n 1: a beverage made by steeping tea leaves in water; "iced tea
21:14:31 <lambdabot> 2: a light midafternoon meal of tea and sandwiches or cakes; "an
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21:18:12 <fizzie> fungot: All back to normal, are you?
21:18:25 <fizzie> Hmm, that's not promising.
21:18:36 <fizzie> fungot: I don't know, you'll have to figure that out.
21:18:36 <fungot> fizzie: i know. it's not impossible to require modules using prefixes etc. which is ok, before implementing it
21:18:45 <b_jonas> my hon. and learned friend fungot is back
21:18:46 <fungot> b_jonas: that i'll fight. it doesn't suck if you have dynamically scoped debugger hooks it's the integration into chicken, if you can
21:19:19 <fizzie> (It resets to the irc style at restart.)
21:22:28 <HackEso> #!/bin/sh \ exec date "+%Y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S.%N %z %Z %B %-e %A %G-W%V-%u"
21:22:31 <HackEso> #!/bin/sh \ exec date -u "+%Y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S.%N %z %Z %B %-e %A %G-W%V-%u"
21:28:06 <b_jonas> `perl -we for $e ("i","u"){ $f="bin/date$e"; open my$i,"<",$e; local$/; $s=<$i> or die; $s=~s/"\+%Y/\${d:+-d "\$d"} $&/ or die; open $o,">",$f or die "error open $f w: $!"; print $o $s or die; close $o or die; print "OK $f\n" }
21:28:07 <HackEso> Value of <HANDLE> construct can be "0"; test with defined() at -e line 1. \ readline() on closed filehandle $i at -e line 1. \ Died at -e line 1.
21:28:37 <b_jonas> `perl -e for $e ("i","u"){ $f="bin/date$e"; open my$i,"<",$e or die "error open $f r"; local$/; $s=<$i> or die; $s=~s/"\+%Y/\${d:+-d "\$d"} $&/ or die; open $o,">",$f or die "error open $f w: $!"; print $o $s or die; close $o or die; print "OK $f\n" }
21:28:38 <HackEso> error open bin/datei r at -e line 1.
21:28:45 <HackEso> #!/bin/sh \ exec date "+%Y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S.%N %z %Z %B %-e %A %G-W%V-%u"
21:29:07 <b_jonas> `perl -e for $e ("i","u"){ $f="bin/date$e"; open my$i,"<",$f or die "error open $f r"; local$/; $s=<$i> or die; $s=~s/"\+%Y/\${d:+-d "\$d"} $&/ or die; open $o,">",$f or die "error open $f w: $!"; print $o $s or die; close $o or die; print "OK $f\n" }
21:29:09 <HackEso> OK bin/datei \ OK bin/dateu
21:29:12 <HackEso> 2019-01-04 21:29:12.098799133 +0000 UTC January 4 Friday 2019-W01-5
21:29:15 <HackEso> 2019-01-04 21:29:15.160479399 +0000 UTC January 4 Friday 2019-W01-5
21:29:23 <HackEso> 2019-01-04 21:29:23.562776983 +0000 UTC January 4 Friday 2019-W01-5
21:29:34 <HackEso> #!/bin/sh \ exec date ${d:+-d "$d"} "+%Y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S.%N %z %Z %B %-e %A %G-W%V-%u"
21:29:35 <HackEso> 2019-01-04 21:29:35.420087204 +0000 UTC January 4 Friday 2019-W01-5
21:29:47 <HackEso> #!/bin/sh \ exec date "+%Y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S.%N %z %Z %B %-e %A %G-W%V-%u"
21:29:49 <HackEso> #!/bin/sh \ exec date -u "+%Y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S.%N %z %Z %B %-e %A %G-W%V-%u"
21:30:08 <b_jonas> `perl -e for $e ("i","u"){ $f="bin/date$e"; open my$i,"<",$f or die "error open $f r"; local$/; $s=<$i> or die; $s=~s/"\+%Y/\${1:+-d "\$1"} $&/ or die; open $o,">",$f or die "error open $f w: $!"; print $o $s or die; close $o or die; print "OK $f\n" }
21:30:13 <HackEso> OK bin/datei \ OK bin/dateu
21:30:16 <HackEso> 2019-01-04 21:30:16.440430275 +0000 UTC January 4 Friday 2019-W01-5
21:30:23 <HackEso> 2019-07-20 00:00:00.000000000 +0000 UTC July 20 Saturday 2019-W29-6
21:30:29 <HackEso> 2019-07-20 10:30:00.000000000 +0000 UTC July 20 Saturday 2019-W29-6
21:30:37 <HackEso> date: invalid date ‘--07-20 10:30’
21:30:47 <HackEso> date: invalid date ‘-19-07-20 10:30’
21:30:55 <HackEso> 2019-07-20 00:00:00.000000000 +0000 UTC July 20 Saturday 2019-W29-6
21:31:14 <HackEso> 2019-01-04 00:00:00.000000000 +0000 UTC January 4 Friday 2019-W01-5
21:31:21 <HackEso> 2019-01-10 00:00:00.000000000 +0000 UTC January 10 Thursday 2019-W02-4
21:31:30 <HackEso> 2019-01-03 21:31:30.305389414 +0000 UTC January 3 Thursday 2019-W01-4
21:31:34 <HackEso> 2019-01-04 21:31:34.359002045 +0000 UTC January 4 Friday 2019-W01-5
21:31:42 <HackEso> 2019-01-04 00:00:00.000000000 +0000 UTC January 4 Friday 2019-W01-5
21:31:45 <HackEso> 2019-01-04 21:31:45.302110784 +0000 UTC January 4 Friday 2019-W01-5
21:31:55 <HackEso> 2019-01-05 00:00:00.000000000 +0000 UTC January 5 Saturday 2019-W01-6
21:31:59 <HackEso> 2019-01-05 00:00:00.000000000 +0000 UTC January 5 Saturday 2019-W01-6
21:32:21 <HackEso> 2019-01-04 21:32:21.060698040 +0000 UTC January 4 Friday 2019-W01-5
21:32:23 <HackEso> 2019-01-04 21:32:22.729636367 +0000 UTC January 4 Friday 2019-W01-5
21:32:25 <HackEso> 2019-01-04 21:32:24.929500528 +0000 UTC January 4 Friday 2019-W01-5
21:33:00 <b_jonas> anyway, datei and dateu now takes a datetime in argument, in the formats that date accepts
21:33:08 <HackEso> date: invalid date ‘march’
21:33:11 <HackEso> 2019-03-01 00:00:00.000000000 +0000 UTC March 1 Friday 2019-W09-5
21:33:46 <HackEso> 2001-09-09 01:46:40.000000000 +0000 UTC September 9 Sunday 2001-W36-7
21:33:59 <HackEso> 2033-05-18 03:33:20.000000000 +0000 UTC May 18 Wednesday 2033-W20-3
21:34:13 <HackEso> 2017-07-14 02:40:00.000000000 +0000 UTC July 14 Friday 2017-W28-5
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22:07:14 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58924&oldid=58863 * Cortex * (-56)
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23:04:25 <esowiki> [[User:Cortex/draft]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58925 * Cortex * (+730) Created page with "'''MPD''' is a programming language created by [[User:Cortex|Cortex]] which contains multiple languages inside of it. It is named after multiple personality disorder. User:C..."
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23:37:13 <rain1> just start small and don't get stuck on one particular language/methodology
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00:49:07 <oerjan> It's apparently the neighbor's turn to have a cold. :(
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02:12:21 <zzo38> Do you know that I am making a implementation of Z-machine in Glulx?
02:13:33 <zzo38> So far I got everything in ZIPTEST working up to and including the "test of LOC" (which actually uses IN? and not LOC)
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02:58:06 <lambdabot> ENVA 050250Z 29008KT 9999 FEW007 SCT010 BKN025 06/05 Q1021 RMK WIND 670FT 28015KT
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03:36:27 <imode> uncle died today. what do you all use to keep programming through times like that.
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03:50:16 <oerjan> My condolences. Alas, I'm the worst person to ask.
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04:03:41 <zzo38> That is too bad, but I have not needed anything, in order to do so
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05:00:32 * oerjan simplifies ais523's three bracket proof
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05:02:31 <zzo38> I thought of some idea to combine Go with Scrabble.
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06:33:12 <esowiki> [[Talk:Nope.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58926&oldid=58923 * Salpynx * (+2980) using Nope. interpreter for arbitrary output
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06:41:52 <esowiki> [[Talk:Nope.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58927&oldid=58926 * Salpynx * (+80) /* Hello, World! */
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06:53:22 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58928&oldid=58897 * Oerjan * (+414) /* Computational class */ Remove claim that was never made remotely rigorous, and add Ais523's new result from CS.SE
06:54:52 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58929&oldid=58928 * Oerjan * (+0) /* Computational class */ 'pparently it's lower case
07:10:58 <esowiki> [[Funciton]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58930&oldid=51638 * Qpliu * (+150)
07:24:46 <esowiki> [[Funciton]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58931&oldid=58930 * Qpliu * (+103) /* External resources */
07:25:26 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * FizzyApple12 * New user account
07:31:10 <esowiki> [[Talk:Funciton]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58932&oldid=47233 * Qpliu * (+713) /* Rotation invariant? */
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10:22:49 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58933&oldid=58919 * FizzyApple12 * (+342) /* Introductions */
10:23:27 <esowiki> [[Laser]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58934 * FizzyApple12 * (+3184) Laser is a 2D programming language built by FizzyApple12 (David Roeder) based on lasers, color, brightness and direction.
10:24:55 <esowiki> [[Laser]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58935&oldid=58934 * FizzyApple12 * (+19) /* Hello World */
10:33:51 <esowiki> [[Laser]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58936&oldid=58935 * FizzyApple12 * (+2) /* Hello World */
10:38:00 <esowiki> [[Laser]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58937&oldid=58936 * FizzyApple12 * (+18) fixed bad formatting
10:42:08 <esowiki> [[Laser]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58938&oldid=58937 * FizzyApple12 * (+13) fixed bad formatting
10:43:12 <esowiki> [[Laser]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58939&oldid=58938 * FizzyApple12 * (-9) fixed bad formatting
10:45:43 <esowiki> [[Laser]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58940&oldid=58939 * FizzyApple12 * (+28) fix even more bad formatting
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13:43:59 <esowiki> [[Laser]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58941&oldid=58940 * FizzyApple12 * (-42)
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15:08:54 <esowiki> [[Laser]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58942&oldid=58941 * FizzyApple12 * (+4)
15:24:47 <esowiki> [[Laser]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58943&oldid=58942 * FizzyApple12 * (-5)
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15:48:42 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Niceapi * New user account
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15:54:50 <esowiki> [[User:FizzyApple12]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58944 * FizzyApple12 * (+229) Created page with "FizzyApple12 (David Roeder) is a small programmer that does a lot of work in JavaScript, Python, and C# == His Work == === Website === My website is [http://www.fizzyapple..."
16:04:05 <arseniiv> how do I prove that Void (a type with no constructors, the zero type) is isomorphic to forall a. a?
16:05:23 <arseniiv> it’s easy to write two functions Void → (forall a. a) and (forall a. a) → Void, but I can’t prove their two compositions equal to id
16:06:22 <arseniiv> the question in this case is what (case x of {}) is equal to, or how can I prove the isomorphism in some other, not equational way
16:07:45 <arseniiv> as far as it goes, we should be unable to derive anything about the value of (case x of {}), as there are no matchers in there, and so no implications of form “x = … => case x of {…} = …”
16:08:42 <arseniiv> and there are, if we are talking about a sound theory, no other ways to derive a formula of the form “case x of {…} = …”
16:09:01 <arseniiv> if I understand it all correctly, that is
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16:21:57 <esowiki> [[Laser]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58945&oldid=58943 * FizzyApple12 * (+66)
16:22:16 <esowiki> [[Laser]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58946&oldid=58945 * FizzyApple12 * (+0) /* Truth Machine */
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19:05:19 <esowiki> [[User:Cortex/draft]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58947&oldid=58925 * Cortex * (+19)
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19:15:32 <lambdabot> LOWI 051850Z VRB02KT 6000 -SNRA FEW003 BKN012 01/00 Q1025 R08/19//95 TEMPO 27007KT 4000 SNRA
19:16:44 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
19:17:02 <fungot> Selected style: discworld (a subset of Terry Pratchett's Discworld books)
19:17:06 <int-e> fungot: Rincewind?
19:17:07 <fungot> int-e: there was the sound of his hammer.
19:18:34 <fungot> int-e: " yes, sir." vimes lowered the ape, who wisely didn't make an issue of it because a man angry enough to lift fnord of orangutan without noticing is a man of high reputation!' the archchancellor went on.
19:18:51 <int-e> Ah, we have a winner :)
19:21:03 <int-e> I forgot what the problem with this style was... a tendency to produce literal quotes rather than remixing, maybe?
19:22:15 <fungot> int-e: he gripped the guitar's neck and flung it inexpertly. he was the younger son, and family tradition sent youngest sons into some church or other," she said,
19:22:45 <int-e> fungot quota exceeded :/
20:06:53 <fizzie> fungot: You're so stingy.
20:06:53 <fungot> fizzie: carrot patted him fnord on the wood near the driver, was a squat little house, with a grunt of effort.
20:09:00 * int-e fungots with exceeding fungot
20:09:00 <fungot> int-e: " why'd you want to face the other auditors. with considerable effort, managed to light the lamps and the squeaky rubber hippo. now he could see right to the sheer drop.
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20:14:53 <ais523> <arseniiv> as far as it goes, we should be unable to derive anything about the value of (case x of {}) ← no, you have that backwards, we are able to derive /anything/ about the value of (case x of {})
20:15:25 <ais523> think of it this way: how would you prove that (case x of {true = 4; false = 4}) is 4?
20:16:54 <HackEso> cat: cat: No such file or directory
20:18:20 <HackEso> A canary is a small bright yellow chicken that dwells in deep caves. Unlike bats, canaries are oriented right way up, unless they're pining for the fjords.
20:18:44 <HackEso> oerjän boil̈y oerjän FireFl̈y FireFl̈y
20:19:49 <int-e> "Errol had started eating again. He'd eaten most of the table, the grate, the coal scuttle, several lamps and the squeaky rubber hippo."
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21:02:54 <Taneb> I am back from Italy
21:04:15 <lambdabot> EGLL 052050Z AUTO 28005KT 9999 OVC027 06/02 Q1038
21:05:32 <lambdabot> LIRA 052050Z 04005KT 9999 SCT050 06/M00 Q1019
21:09:37 <Taneb> b_jonas: apparently not
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21:35:07 <esowiki> [[Hexlr7]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58948&oldid=58756 * Cortex * (-80)
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22:04:04 <Luciole> https://twitter.com/handleym99/status/1081617351328460800 I feel like this tweet is #esoteric-relevant
22:09:41 <int-e> Luciole: so I'm supposed to remove all leap year handling from my code? :P
22:10:20 <Luciole> well, sure. it's a niche edgecase anyway, you're better off not supporting leap years. don't want to feature-bloat your program
22:10:24 <Luciole> just add it back every fourth year
22:11:12 <zzo38> I disagree, you will need leap year support if you are doing date calculations (although you might not need to implement it yourself; it might be part of the standard library). However, if you do not need to convert dates in this way, then you do not need to add special support for leap years either.
22:13:26 <int-e> @google 100 days ago
22:13:27 <lambdabot> https://www.convertunits.com/dates/daysfromnow/-100
22:14:21 <int-e> (Google actually comes back with a date for me.)
22:15:12 <b_jonas> also remove all lines about recognizing hardware errors like a faulty disk. who needs those?
22:18:13 <zzo38> It depend on the program, I think.
22:23:09 <ais523> handling faulty disks should be the responsibility of the language/runtime, not every program that uses disks
22:24:04 <ais523> although unless the language has some sort of unified UI, the runtime may want to tell the program "that wasn't possible, ask the user to save it elsewhere"
22:24:11 <b_jonas> so you remove those lines from the kernel drivers if they haven't been used in a year
22:24:16 <ais523> (languages probably /should/ have a common UI for all programs, but in practice they don't)
22:25:20 <int-e> Luciole: I'm also reminded of, I believe, the .kkrieger game, where in the competition version, the "up" key didn't work in the menu; it turns out that they had a tool to dynamically detect dead code and they used that to squeeze it down to 96k; and in none of the test playthroughs did they ever use the "up" key in the menu.
22:26:00 <b_jonas> it's funny when en.wikipedia has two articles about two people mentioned in the Bible who were probably the same but we're not entirely sure, but hu.wikipedia only has one article, so it's hard to navigate from en.wikipedia to the relevant article on hu.wikipedia because the language links must map one to one
22:26:16 <int-e> (I remember the story better than what the actual game was, and unfortunately I have not found the story itself in my brief search just now.)
22:27:22 <zzo38> Handling faulty disks should be the responsibility of the driver in the operating system, I should think. It can simply tell the program it is error, and the program need not tell the difference from different kind of errors.
22:28:12 <zzo38> b_jonas: Can you add a redirection page to fix that? Will languages work with redirection pages?
22:28:16 <b_jonas> it can also happen backwards, or with two people who are definitely the same but a distinction is made about which name is the patron of a certain Catholic church or parish: that mostly happens with Jesus Christ and Virgin Mary
22:28:49 <b_jonas> zzo38: you can add a redirection page, but not working language links that way I think
22:29:10 <Luciole> int-e: yepyep, the article on that tool (that they wrote to compress it) is really interesting (but I suspect you might've read it, given I think that particular tidbit is from that article)
22:29:34 <Luciole> https://fgiesen.wordpress.com/2012/04/08/metaprogramming-for-madmen/ <- that one
22:29:41 <Luciole> (also the rest of ryg's blog, really)
22:30:15 <b_jonas> there's a similar phenomenon that happens with language links across commons and two wikipedias, because language links must be transitive too:
22:31:08 <b_jonas> often one wikipedia has both an article and a category about something, another wikipedia only has an article, and commons only has a category, and in that case you can't go in an easy way between commons and the second wikipedia
22:31:21 <b_jonas> sometimes this is fixed by ordinary links in the description text of course
22:31:57 <b_jonas> this one actually should be automated in software, because wikidata does collect the relation of an article being the main article of a category,
22:32:26 <b_jonas> so perhaps the mediawiki software could be patched to show the relevant interwiki links automatically in that case
22:34:44 <b_jonas> ais523: sometimes it can happen in user programs too, if it handles fails writes and writes have never failed in that program in the last year. writes could fail not only for a disk hardware failure, but also because of filesystem full, permission denied, no network access to network file system, media removed from driver, etc, but with the use case of some programs these just don't come up
22:37:12 <ais523> some programs, I run less than once per year
22:37:14 <int-e> Luciole: wow, thanks.
22:37:17 <b_jonas> this is why we have a /dev/full for easy testing by the way
22:37:28 <int-e> Luciole: Yes, I've read that before, but it's nice to see it again :)
22:37:48 <arseniiv> ais523> think of it this way: how would you prove that (case x of {true = 4; false = 4}) is 4? => by case analysis: x = true => (case …) = 4, x = false => (case …) = 4, so (case …) = 4 unconditionally. Hm so if we have an empty conjunction of these… hm, no, I don’t exactly follow
22:38:31 * Luciole is now reading https://fgiesen.wordpress.com/2018/12/10/rate-distortion-optimization/
22:38:49 <ais523> arseniiv: the point is that you get a return value of 4 in every branch
22:39:03 <ais523> case x of {} also gives a return value of 4 in every branch
22:39:54 <ais523> you can use a similar argument to prove /anything/ about the return value of "case x of {}" (it's not surprising you can do this, as the code can never run, so this is just a variant of "from a contradiction, anything follows")
22:41:51 <arseniiv> ais523: ah, thanks, now it’s clearer!
22:42:51 <arseniiv> so, then that isomorphism is sealed and I can sleep at ease :D
22:46:02 <b_jonas> https://twitter.com/gro_tsen/status/1081614752231632902 is esoteric-related too.
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23:55:36 <oerjan> ais523: I found how to remove the middle brackets, see comment
23:59:59 <ais523> I haven't fully got my head around it yet
00:00:11 <ais523> it's probably worth a separate answer if we can make it work
00:01:08 <ais523> how do you get the pointer back to the correct alignment after a zeroing happens?
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00:02:51 <ais523> (one advantage I see is that it doesn't matter where it is, so long as the alignment is correct, which makes me more confident that it's possible)
00:03:54 <ais523> oh, you need to make it so that the "throwaway" counter is on the same alignment as a real counter, just further left; this likely makes many of the counters not function correctly but as long as sufficiently many of them do, it's still TC
00:04:50 <esowiki> [[Template:Yearcats]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58960&oldid=53929 * Oerjan * (+26) Updoot
00:06:54 <oerjan> ais523: Um, it's just a question of finding a Golomb ruler with *two* positions per value (mod p), then all the counters should work.
00:07:45 <ais523> oerjan: oh, the idea is that you maintain the ones at the left at 0?
00:08:16 <oerjan> (They'll be briefly nonzero after they're hit, thus the cleanup mention)
00:10:02 <ais523> actually, I've been thinking a lot about a "resets to 0" variant of The Waterfall Model
00:10:39 <ais523> I believe this is TC if you permit the situation where two counters are 0, but the one that zeroed more recently increases the one that zeroed less recently, and the one that zeroed less recently decreases the one that zeroed more recently
00:10:54 <ais523> that would make this situation much cleaner
00:11:01 <ais523> that said, although I /believe/ that it's TC I haven't proved it
00:13:56 <ais523> if we're doing this in positive-reset Waterfall, then I assume your construction is that each real counter increases the corresponding fallback counter to its own reset value, and each real and fallback counter decreases the previous fallback counter by the reset value?
00:15:37 <ais523> oh, and to make the decrements work, each real and fallback counter has to decrease the /next/ counter by 1
00:16:15 <oerjan> 'xactly (you're basically restating point 2)
00:16:38 <ais523> yes, this is me trying to understand what you've written
00:18:22 <oerjan> I suppose summing it all up in one SE comment (I think I had one byte left) doesn't help.
00:25:08 <ais523> OK, so here's what the Erdős–Turán construction looks like, but it only hits half the moduli: https://tio.run/##y0rNyan8///w9Ic7lmgf2qR6aCnXwx3bDi8/tPXhzpb4w/sSDq10B7IObT20zs3OQOVY@8Odi8D8Rw1zHjXMBTK5DrcFHW5/1LTm4c7ZQMH///8bWgIA
00:25:27 <oerjan> Which is actually perfect for this use...
00:26:40 <ais523> it'd be nice to find some way of creating small Golomb rulers that hit all of them twice
00:29:11 <oerjan> 2p*f(i)+i, where f is any Golomb ruler.
00:29:34 <ais523> version with the moduli shown: https://tio.run/##y0rNyan8///w9Ic7lmgf2qR6aCnXwx3bDi8/tPPhzpZDK1UfNe4AMbYeWhd/eF/CoZXuUJ6bnYHKsfaHOxeB@Y8a5jxqmAtkch1uCzrc/qhpzcOds4GC////N7QEAA
00:30:11 <ais523> oerjan: OK, if it's 2p not just p, I think that works
00:30:19 <ais523> although of course you need each i twice
00:30:35 <oerjan> Well I mean to think of i,i+p as the pair for a counter
00:30:37 <ais523> probably isn't asymptotically optimal but it may be good enough in practice
00:31:24 <ais523> I'd expect that not to work, but maybe it does?
00:31:45 <oerjan> I mean 2p*f(i)+i, 2p*f(i+p)+i+p
00:32:12 <ais523> but now the "distance p between real and fallback counter" is intriguing me
00:32:44 <oerjan> It's not p, there's f(i+p) too
00:32:55 <ais523> it doesn't work, each real counter would have to decrease the previous one by the reset value
00:32:59 <ais523> which is too harsh a restriction
00:33:11 <ais523> so yes, full Golomb ruler for all the real and fallback counters
00:34:04 <oerjan> This is really just taking the p*f(i)+i construction for a Golomb ruler that hits each remainder once, and using 2p instead
00:34:35 <ais523> no, if you're hitting each remainder once, you need 2p*f(i)+i
00:35:03 <oerjan> Are we talking about the same thing
00:35:03 <ais523> because "high i minus low i" from one difference and "low i minus high i" from a different difference can subtract to more than p
00:35:34 <ais523> a Golomb ruler has f(i)-f(j) all distinct, i.e. they differ by at least 1
00:35:50 <ais523> so p*f(i) and p*f(j) differ by at least p
00:35:53 <oerjan> No, because the differences have to be equal (mod p) to be equal
00:36:20 <oerjan> so if i<j, k<l, and j-i = l-k (mod p), then j-i=l-k
00:37:19 <ais523> if you use p*f(i)+i and p*f(j)+j, we're changing each of those differences by ±(p-1), so the difference can be adjusted by up to 2p-2
00:37:29 <oerjan> Let me try being less brief.
00:37:58 <oerjan> I thought about this yesterday. One requirement: f must be increasing.
00:38:26 <ais523> OK, if f is increasing, I can believe it works
00:38:42 <ais523> (not sure, but I can see how that restriction might help)
00:39:26 <oerjan> Define g(i) = p*f(i)+i
00:40:02 <oerjan> Let i<j, k<l. Assume g(j)-g(i) = g(l)-g(k). (g is increasing too).
00:40:25 <oerjan> Then j-i = l-k (mod p), and thus j-i = l-k
00:41:01 <oerjan> And thus p*f(j)-p*f(i) = p*f(l)-p*f(k).
00:41:17 <oerjan> Thus j=l and i=k since f is Golomb.
00:41:40 <ais523> ah right, because f is increasing, the fact that two differences of g have the same sign means that the two differences of i also have to have the same sign
00:41:59 <ais523> so we can't produce a value greater than p by subtracting a negative number from a positive one
00:42:22 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58961&oldid=58957 * Helen * (-2) Fixed spelling mistakes
00:43:25 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58962&oldid=58961 * Helen * (+11) Undid mess up to popular problems section
00:43:43 <ais523> this construction is, what, O(n³)? that seems beatable but is likely already good enough
00:45:11 <oerjan> I think so, if we plug Erdős–Turan in as f
00:49:46 <ais523> I suspect even optimal Golomb rulers are O(n²), although the obvious pigeonhole argument doesn't work for that
00:53:24 <oerjan> I vaguely interpreted Wikipedia that way (although there's a possibility Erdős–Turan isn't asymptotically optimal despite what it says in the previous paragraph)
00:53:34 <ais523> http://oeis.org/A003022 does look pretty quadratic
00:55:36 <ais523> that said, I think these "each modulus twice" rulers can also be done in O(n²), just don't know how
00:56:18 <oerjan> "a(n) >= n(n-1)/2, with strict inequality for n >= 5 (Golomb)." it says further down on the page
00:57:31 <oerjan> Although the very first comment sounds a bit off - it's not the obvious definition but maybe it's equivalent somehow.
00:59:18 <oerjan> Oh wait it's almost obvious.
00:59:37 <oerjan> Just rearrange a-b=c-d into a+d=b+c.
01:02:52 <ais523> oh of course, then you need n(n-1)/2 distinct sums, so the largest sum must be at least n(n-1)/2, so the largest number must be at least n(n-1)/4
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01:54:45 <ais523> fwiw, you can trivially improve the Erdős–Turan construction by subtracting rather than adding k², and if you're using a 4n-3 prime that gives you the other half of the values mod p
01:57:26 <ais523> I was hoping there'd be some way to stitch the two together by, e.g., running two identical copies of the same The Waterfall Model program (thus not needing any interaction between the two, or differences between the two halves), but I don't think it works
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02:50:29 <esowiki> [[BuxRo]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58964 * Areallycoolusername * (+632) Created page with "An esolang created by [[User: Areallycoolusername]]. It has only one command and that's "Oof...". This command is used to print whatever the user desires. When any other word..."
02:51:32 <esowiki> [[User:Areallycoolusername]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58965&oldid=58866 * Areallycoolusername * (+13)
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02:57:33 <oerjan> If there were some way to replace k² by a permutation of 0,...,p-1, then that would be O(p^2).
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02:58:48 <oerjan> It needs to have the property that if s(l)-s(k)=s(j)-s(i) and l-k=j-i, then l=j.
03:01:58 <oerjan> Oh the first equation needs to be (mod p), probably.
03:04:27 <oerjan> (It replaces (k² mod p), not just k²)
03:06:48 <oerjan> Wait, is this the same as a Costas array
03:07:54 <oerjan> (Which I just found in the links from w:Golomb ruler)
03:07:59 <ais523> oh right, I think it might be
03:08:39 <ais523> I was thinking along the same lines myself, I was sitting in Brachylog looking for permutations
03:09:21 <ais523> (and obviously, you can get the "repeated" property via producing a Golomb ruler of length 2p)
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03:10:49 <ais523> unfortunately, even numbers are not prime, but there's a construction on the Wikipedia article for arrays whose size is a prime power minus 3
03:10:52 <ais523> that's capable of being even
03:11:16 <ais523> oh, also for prime numbers minus 1
03:11:27 <ais523> which is simpler, and also capable of being even (in fact, it nearly always is)
03:18:41 <oerjan> That's Golomb ruler of *order* 2p btw, length means the maximal distance.
03:20:09 <ais523> OK, so we have c counters, and we want 2c+1 to be prime, and we calculate our counter locations (of both real and fallback counters) as 4ck+(((r**k)-1)%2c), where r is a primitive root of 2c+1
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03:55:02 <esowiki> [[Qwote]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58966 * Areallycoolusername * (+331) Created page with "Qwote is an [[esoteric programming language]] created by [[User: Areallycoolusername]]. The only valid commands are single and double quotes. The language is binary, so 0s are..."
03:56:41 <esowiki> [[Works in progress]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58967&oldid=56222 * Areallycoolusername * (+14)
03:57:23 <esowiki> [[Works in progress]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58968&oldid=58967 * Areallycoolusername * (-2)
04:00:43 <esowiki> [[Qwote]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58969&oldid=58966 * Areallycoolusername * (+136)
04:01:29 <ais523> oerjan: a potential problem with this construction: how do we prevent non-counter cells becoming 0 as we iterate over them?
04:01:44 <ais523> oh, because they never get decremented
04:02:19 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58970&oldid=58921 * Areallycoolusername * (+45)
04:02:26 <oerjan> That was my point 3...
04:02:55 <ais523> I misread that, I thought you were doubling the distances between cells
04:03:04 <ais523> so that you had a working halt mechanism
04:03:20 <oerjan> Nope, on the contrary, it's halved.
04:03:51 <ais523> if we want to maintain halt behaviour we can double the distances and put a 1 to the left of non-halt counters, a 0 to the left of the halt counter
04:04:32 <oerjan> I had a different idea, namely to replace >>> and <<< with the distance between the halting counter and its fallback
04:04:50 <ais523> the halt counter's fallback won't be 0 though
04:05:02 <oerjan> We can make an exception for it
04:05:13 <oerjan> So it's not adjusted like the rest
04:05:14 <ais523> or, wait, it will be 0
04:05:30 <ais523> by the time we get round to the halt counter again
04:05:49 <ais523> the "mark the halt counters" approach is clearer to implement, but makes the program larger
04:06:10 <ais523> (well, unless the halt counter happens to be a long way from its fallback)
04:06:55 <oerjan> I mean that it works like this: When the halting counter is hit and 0, it does *not* adjust its fallback, instead keeping it zero so that hits it and exits.
04:07:45 <ais523> ah yes, I think that works
04:14:26 <oerjan> Although the other method allows more easily more than one halt counter
04:20:00 <esowiki> [[User:Cortex/draft]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58971&oldid=58947 * Cortex * (+62)
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04:23:56 <oerjan> Not sure my point 4 (keeping all irrelevant cells non-negative) works.
04:24:10 <ais523> nor am I, but I don't think it matters for this
04:24:38 <ais523> the constant factor of this construction appears to be 16 (i.e. it uses less than 16×c² cells, for c counters with 2c+1 prime)
04:24:53 <ais523> that's with your version of the halting code
04:25:35 <oerjan> Well I thought it would be a nice restriction to add, since not all bignum BF support negative numbers.
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04:26:11 <ais523> the ruler itself takes up 8c² squares, and the movement of the tape head can overshoot up to the length of the ruler in either direction (plus a small constant, less than c, to the right)
04:28:15 <oerjan> 10c² squares, isn't it?
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04:33:32 <oerjan> The overshoot to the left is due to the halting mechanism, no, so might be minimized by choosing a halting counter close to its fallback
04:35:51 <oerjan> seeing c^2 where none is
04:40:19 <oerjan> (g^i mod (2c+1)) = (g^j mod (2c+1)) (mod c) might not be trivial to solve
04:46:23 <oerjan> g^(i+1)-g^i = (g-1)*g^i, that can easily be made c (mod (2c+1)), although then it may be 50% whether that's actually 1-c instead.
04:49:39 <oerjan> If this is random, there should be a good chance of getting a small distance by trying g^(i+k)-g^i for growing k.
04:55:56 <ais523> I'm now using the formula 4ck-(((r**k)-1)%2c) (with a - not a +), which works for the same reason and gives a slightly shorter ruler
04:56:32 <ais523> as for the overshoot to the left, there are two things that can cause it: a write overshoot (the length of the ruler), and a read overshoot (the distance between halt and halt-fallback)
04:56:33 <oerjan> I think you want %(2c+1)
04:56:50 <ais523> I've corrected that in the program I'm writing but forgot to in my paste
04:57:37 <oerjan> Slightly shorter ruler assuming r is small
04:57:40 <ais523> <http://nethack4.org/esolangs/2bbf.pl> Smallest primitive root of 23 is 5. Formula is thus 2*22*i - (5**i)%23 + 1.
04:57:50 <ais523> it's slightly shorter regardless
04:58:45 <oerjan> The left won't matter because it's +-0
04:58:47 <ais523> (the link there is unfinished, but I thought I'd show my work so far)
05:18:19 <zzo38> What should I call program implementing Z-machine with Glulx?
05:20:36 <oerjan> ais523: BTW the very first counter should probably be pre-decremented at initialization (unless you want to consider execution to start with the second one)
05:24:03 <ais523> I'm starting execution with the last counter's fallback so that things start at the right place
05:24:28 <ais523> that means I should pre-/increment/ the last counter at initialization, because it will be decremented by the code for counter 0
05:24:36 <oerjan> I suppose it doesn't actually matter, because of the rule that a TWM program can only zero one counter at a time
05:26:03 <ais523> specifically, I'm starting in a hypothetical state just after the fallback for the last counter ran
05:26:04 <oerjan> I envisioned that the code for a counter/fallback decrements the *next* counter.
05:26:38 <ais523> hmm, again I don't think it matters
05:27:04 <ais523> is it worth rewriting this code I've already written for the slight clarity gain?
05:28:48 <ais523> OK, that didn't take long
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06:15:11 <ais523> http://nethack4.org/esolangs/2bbf.pl is the compiler; https://tinyurl.com/y7nfzxhh is an example of a compiled The Waterfall Model program (included BF interpreted by @ASCII-only on PPCG)
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06:19:21 <ais523> oerjan: I'll let you write up the construction on cs.se if you wish, because it's mostly yours; if you don't want to I can do it for you, although probably not tonight
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06:23:30 <ais523> it crosses my mind that we could probably even make this do output (although we'd have to be outputting NULs every loop iteration which wouldn't otherwise output unless we used a third pair of brackets, and the output operations would be "increment output value", "output output value", "decrement output value" rather than "increment output value", "output output value and zero it")
06:26:18 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58972&oldid=58929 * Ais523 * (+501) /* Computational class */ 3-loop brainfuck improved to 2-loop brainfuck
06:27:05 <ais523> I guess this gives an alternative proof that BF only needs nesting level 2 to be TC ;-)
06:27:57 <oerjan> Actually the proof that's there requires unbounded tape length but bounded cells, unlike this one.
06:28:09 <oerjan> So it's a different case.
06:28:30 <oerjan> (Which I'd been hoping to solve as well)
06:29:40 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58973&oldid=58972 * Ais523 * (+3) /* Computational class */ fix my misremembering of the complexity of the two-bracket-pair construction
06:30:00 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58974&oldid=58973 * Ais523 * (-1) /* Computational class */ typo fix
06:30:20 <ais523> oerjan: I know, and it works in BF-- too
06:30:26 <ais523> that's what the wink was for
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08:12:59 <imode> what could be more primitive than finite state machines.
08:15:27 <pikhq> Stateless machines?
08:16:04 <imode> would you even consider them "machines" at that point? :P
08:16:24 <shachaf> Are functions stateless machines?
08:19:34 <imode> when carrying out the computation of a function given an input, there's always some state, be it in your head or on paper.
08:19:45 <imode> it may be in the form of rewriting an expression.
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08:30:31 <shachaf> I mean, if you describe a machine with state, you probably have a lookup table corresponding to which state you're in, which input you see, which action you take, which new state, etc.
08:30:46 <shachaf> If you remove the states from that, you just get a fixed lookup table for a function.
08:32:24 <imode> well when you put it like that, "lookup tables" are more primitive, but FSMs are defined in terms of, well, their transition function.
08:33:57 <imode> heh. you can't go much lower than that, unless you define constant functions..
08:40:42 <imode> then again, if you consider the "state" of a system and the current input as inputs to the transition function, an FSM _is_ a lookup table.
08:40:49 <imode> just a really weird one.
08:41:29 <imode> or rather, a nonobvious one. one with some extra logic on top of it. you hand in a state, it hands you back one, you hand that state back to it with a new input, it hands you back a new state.. etc. etc.
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09:02:48 <imode> I wonder what the _smallest_ change you'd have to make to an FSM that'd make it turing complete would be.
09:02:59 <imode> part of me says communication.
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09:13:46 <imode> communicating state machines are interesting. if you allow an unbounded set of communication channels between finite state machines, this can be seen as a queue automaton.
09:15:29 <imode> a single machine can store its state by sending messages on a channel that's unique to it, thus encoding its internal state, and cycling through its messages and requeueing them.
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09:37:32 <esowiki> [[Laser]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58977&oldid=58976 * FizzyApple12 * (-131)
10:03:44 <rdococ> How would a programming language where you map the old state to the new state with dataflow fare against a typical imperative language in terms of parallel programming?
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10:16:52 <esowiki> [[Laser]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58978&oldid=58977 * FizzyApple12 * (-140) Put link to github repo
10:18:13 <esowiki> [[Laser]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58979&oldid=58978 * FizzyApple12 * (+2) grammer
10:21:06 <esowiki> [[Laser]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58980&oldid=58979 * FizzyApple12 * (+0) fix syntax in reference
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11:54:57 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58981&oldid=58963 * Helen * (+0) Fixed truth-machine code
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14:21:02 <b_jonas> oh! so ais523 has a separate account for golf SE from the rest of SE.
14:22:01 <b_jonas> https://cs.stackexchange.com/questions/102363/how-many-pairs-of-brackets-in-bf-be-sufficient-enough-to-make-it-turing-complete/102369#102369
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14:45:44 <rain1> https://i.imgur.com/cnCBR0d.png my IRC client liked that link
15:41:38 <b_jonas> In Super Mario, spiny eggs have spines right when they are laid by the lakitu. Doesn't that have somewhat disturbing implications for the mother spiny?
15:42:07 <b_jonas> And those spikes can't be soft either, because they hurt Mario.
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15:55:22 <HackEso> TAS is a tool-assisted speedrun: a race in which participants must use quality tools such as the PHP hammer, Autoconf, and the Arkenpliers to assist them in running.
15:55:48 <b_jonas> or "totally authentic speedrun"
16:07:08 <Taneb> b_jonas: maybe they harden after a short contact with air
16:09:44 <b_jonas> http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/diary/december_2018.html#december_28 Wow, this is a strange way to get inspiration for computability results. "I'd never heard before that the Church-Turing thesis was born right after Kleene got dosed with laughing gas!" on John Baez's blog
16:12:33 <b_jonas> apparently he was anesthesized but we don't specifically know if it's laughing gas, and the number of wisdom teeth pulled is in question
16:14:31 <Taneb> Hmm, how was it first proven that Turing machines are as computationally powerful as the lambda calculus?
16:14:42 <b_jonas> Maybe that's the ultimate question of Life, Universe, and Everything. How many wisdom teeth do you need to get pulled to be in such an altered mental state that you prove P!=NP? 42.
16:20:14 <int-e> that's a lot of teeth
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16:31:08 <arseniiv> b_jonas: Baez gives a wrong formula for nitrous oxide (correct N2O) :( I strongly hope it’s a typo or a memory error
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16:46:14 <ais523> @tell oerjan simpler construction (untested but feels like it should work): instead of one fallback counter per waterclock, have two global fallback counters that zero each other and decrement every waterclock, then use [<] as the inner loop rather than doing something mod-number-of-counters
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17:05:28 <b_jonas> arseniiv: no, Baez quotes an article that gives the wrong fortuna, and then Baez points out the error in his own text
17:05:42 <b_jonas> he gives the wrong correction?
17:06:18 <b_jonas> hmm, you're right. Baez writes "NO_2".
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17:17:19 <arseniiv> b_jonas: oh, it would be nice!
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17:28:38 <b_jonas> also, TWO PAIRS OF BRACKETS in bignum brainfuck, wow.
17:29:22 <b_jonas> by the way, oerjan, does that construction work with only zero and positive values in tape cells? I think it does, but I don't know for sure
17:34:04 <ais523> b_jonas: not obviously; it's hard to adjust all the possible decremented cells to keep them positive
17:34:18 <ais523> the "simpler construction" above may be easier to keep cells positive
17:34:44 <ais523> it is the case that if a cell goes negative at any point, we never read it as 0 at any point
17:44:51 <b_jonas> but aren't all the adjustments using the bulk of the matrix positive, and you only decrement real counters one by one?
17:45:02 <b_jonas> jumping from counter to counter
17:46:02 <ais523> b_jonas: the two-bracket construction decrements all sorts of random tape cells
17:46:38 <ais523> because the only way it has to do an if statement is to change a cell at a fixed offset from the pointer, in such a way that if the condition is false, the changed cell isn't used for anything
17:47:01 <ais523> the construction has conditional decrements, so that's a lot of random unused cells being decremented
17:54:14 <esowiki> [[APLWSI]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58982&oldid=58102 * Weirdlang * (+3) /* Interpreter */
17:54:52 <esowiki> [[User:Weirdlang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58983 * Weirdlang * (+7) Created page with "My page"
17:56:32 <esowiki> [[User:Weirdlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58984&oldid=58983 * Weirdlang * (+28)
18:00:16 <b_jonas> ais523: ok, so this is a difference between the two bracket and the three bracket
18:01:10 <esowiki> [[APLWSI]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58985&oldid=58982 * Weirdlang * (+10)
18:01:53 <arseniiv> it seems there are almost no(?) languages supporting arbitrary-element regexes. It calls for a prefix encoding of arbitrary natural numbers by regex-easy strings, which means it better be free of escapes, as some people may want to debug those regexes. So I come to an encoding like this:
18:01:53 <arseniiv> write a number in base 32, then code the leading digit as A…Z0…4@ and all other digits as a…z5…9&. But maybe there is something both more performant (decoding included) and space efficient?
18:03:04 <arseniiv> (A…Z0…4@ means 'A' ~ 0, 'B' ~ 1, … '4' ~ 30, '@' ~ 31)
18:04:08 <ais523> some fixed prefix character followed by base 64 digits?
18:05:54 <arseniiv> darn, I have looked at that but gone it all wrong (n backticks then n base-64 digits, so obviously it was worse)
18:06:15 <arseniiv> thank you, it should be better for big element sets
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18:12:28 <esowiki> [[APLWSI]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58986&oldid=58985 * Weirdlang * (+21)
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18:26:58 <esowiki> [[Laser]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58987&oldid=58980 * FizzyApple12 * (+15)
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18:34:24 <esowiki> [[Laser]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58988&oldid=58987 * FizzyApple12 * (+44) Add cat program to example codde
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18:36:23 <esowiki> [[Laser]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58989&oldid=58988 * FizzyApple12 * (+11) fix truth machine example
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19:50:20 <arseniiv> ais523: hmm, it shows not to be so efficient for e. g. int32s; random int32 encodes as ≈6.742 chars for base-32 code and ≈6.746 chars for base-64 code, and for int64s the results are ≈12.9 vs ≈11.9, here we begin to reap the economy sown; for entities counting in hundreds or thousands the base-32 code seems still more affordable (≈2.0 vs ≈2.9 for random numbers in 0..999)
19:50:52 <ais523> arseniiv: as with all these things, it depends on how large you expect the values to get
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19:51:34 <arseniiv> yeah, I remember some Knuth article on some encoding like these
19:51:34 <ais523> binary may be best for performance, for example, as it simplifies the regexes that have to do calculations on it
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19:56:46 <int-e> arseniiv: hmm, fancy. so you can get down to 5.742 if you use an alphabet of size 64, but use the lowest bit to indicate whether it's the last character in the encoding of a number or not.
19:57:26 <int-e> > 6 - (sum [32^i | i <- [0..6]] / 2^32)
19:57:35 <int-e> > 6 - (sum [64^i | i <- [0..5]] / 2^32)
19:58:01 <arseniiv> hm I was calculating it the other way…
20:00:02 <int-e> hmm, something is wrong there
20:00:08 <int-e> > 7 - (sum [32^i | i <- [0..6]] / 2^32)
20:00:17 <arseniiv> it seems these are off by 1, yes
20:00:26 <int-e> > 1+6 - (sum [64^i | i <- [0..5]] / 2^32)
20:02:47 <int-e> > 7 - (sum [32^i | i <- [1..6]] / 2^32) -- oops, the empty encoding for 0 doesn't work here
20:02:56 <int-e> (not that it makes any big difference)
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20:16:08 <int-e> arseniiv: hmm, given the way regular expression matching usually works... wouldn't it be helpful if we had an encoding that is both a prefix- and suffix-code?
20:20:38 <arseniiv> I picked one of them so there wouldn’t be potential matchings of not exactly well-formed subsequences of the input, not because of efficiency
20:22:21 <int-e> arseniiv: uhm, that *is* my question though. We don't have that property.
20:23:14 <int-e> in the base64 thing, the encoding of 1 is a prefix of the encoding of 64; in the base32 version it's similar for 1 and 32.
20:25:31 <arseniiv> yeah, the last two days I’m too inattentive to almost all I’m doing :(
20:27:59 <arseniiv> in ais523’s modification, we could somewhat leverage this, though, adding the separator character at the end of string and modifying regexes
20:28:24 <arseniiv> I think it can be complex, however
20:32:02 <arseniiv> either should we use a fixed-length slice of these encodings or think up something a la UTF-8
20:32:22 <arseniiv> maybe I even thought of the first case originally
20:34:35 <b_jonas> base 2? base 32? base 64? why would you ever want a representation of integers other than nega-Zeckendorf?
20:35:49 <b_jonas> unless it's for compatibility with displaying the score when your human players don't natively read nega-Zeckendorf and you don't want to do a radix conversion every time the player hits an enemy or gets a coin
20:36:26 <b_jonas> but come on, who cares about selling games to people who can only read hexadecimal
20:37:35 <arseniiv> b_jonas: did you accidently mean octal?
20:37:36 <int-e> b_jonas: nega-Zeckendorf arithmetic is hard. And besides it doesn't satisfy the prefix- and suffix-code desideratum
20:38:09 <ais523> clearly you should be using Radixal!!!! numbers
20:38:28 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, I know it's hard. I couldn't even figure out its rules properly, but zzo38 did figure them out
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20:39:47 <b_jonas> ais523: which one is that? it's not the one with binomial coefficients all the way down, right? maybe it's one of those crazy ones that logicians study about statements independent of Peano-arithmetic?
20:40:24 <ais523> b_jonas: it's a notation invented to be difficult in an esolang
20:40:26 <b_jonas> and... I'm afraid to ask this. how many of the four exclamation points are part of the name?
20:40:29 <ais523> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Radixal!!!!
20:40:35 <int-e> b_jonas: I did increment manually at some point: https://github.com/int-e/zeckendorf/blob/master/NegaZeckendorf.hs#L32-L42
20:45:22 <int-e> b_jonas: and I have horrible generated code for the simplification part of the addition: https://github.com/int-e/zeckendorf/blob/master/simps.hs#L145-L187 (the simplification part takes the sequence of sums of digits from the two input numbers (so now we have digits with values 0, 1, and 2) and turns it back into a nega-Zeckendorf number.)
20:46:40 <imode> do you use bitvectors to represent which "digits" are present or am I thinking of another thing.
20:48:00 <b_jonas> ais523: wow. Radixal!!!! looks like a language that's designed to be hard for humans to understand, even though it probably isn't as horrible as it seems
20:48:09 <int-e> imode: there are no bitvectors in that code, I think.
20:48:15 <b_jonas> int-e: sorry, did I confuse you with zzo then?
20:49:52 <int-e> b_jonas: I don't know. I don't keep track of zzo's doings.
20:49:55 <b_jonas> I implemented zeckendorf, binary, and even decimal arithmetic, but nega-Zeckendorf is just too scary. the obvious way to do addition leads to carries that go both left and right in a way that it's not clear why they can't take up a long time to resolve.
20:52:47 <b_jonas> Then there's some nice mixed bases, like the mayan or babylonian or whatever it is base 20,18,20,20,20,20,..., and http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2015-11-09.2335.html#d.2015-11-09.2335 for base 6,5,6,5,6,5,6,5,...
20:53:52 <int-e> . o O ( 365.2425,24,60,60 )
20:55:45 <arseniiv> my favorite base is 1,2,3,4,5,…
20:57:21 <int-e> b_jonas: it turns out that, somewhat miraculously, you never need more than one carry per place. In addition, as you keep processing digits from the least significant, you can always prune some of those possibilities away and only a bounded number remains.
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20:58:33 <int-e> But I forgot a lot of the details.
20:59:23 <b_jonas> int-e: yeah, you can turn it to a nice proper state machine that can do serial addition, ancient shift register ALU style
21:00:11 <arseniiv> oh, these things reminded me about my unsuccesful Clifford algebra crush. Did someone here implemented them in any way?
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21:02:08 <arseniiv> a naive implementation would suffer from O(2^n) space for each element in an algebra on an n-dimension vector space, but general elements are rare in practically interesting calculations
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21:03:37 <arseniiv> though elements of a spin group have 2^(n−1) elements in general, and they are useful
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21:35:46 <HackEso> 4.54545454545455 at -e line 1.
21:45:21 <ais523> b_jonas: why not -Esay?
21:53:57 <HackEso> ALGOL stands for A Programming Language
21:54:18 <HackEso> Algorithms (derived from the medieval "algorisms") are popular sayings by former president Al Gore, except for God's Algorithm which was invented by a Google computer cluster.
21:54:40 <HackEso> A module is like a vector space, except with a ring instead of a field.
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21:56:35 <arseniiv> think we should call a language nonmodular when it thinks that x mod 0 ≠ x?
22:05:22 <ais523> arseniiv: x mod 0 = x would imply x / 0 was valid and evaluated to something
22:05:32 <ais523> I agree that x mod 0 cannot definedly be anything other than x though
22:05:54 <ais523> err, that's integer division x/0
22:06:18 <ais523> I can sort-of see a perverse argument that x/0 is 0 with integer division but Inf with real-number division…
22:06:32 <ais523> except for 0/0, which is of course always _ from Prolog
22:07:06 <arseniiv> we also could define mod n as a canonical homomorphism Z → Z/nZ, and Z/0Z is Z sooo…
22:08:06 <ais523> that said, Perl doesn't actually have an integer division operation
22:08:15 <ais523> `perl -E {use integer; say -1 / 5}
22:08:30 <fizzie> `perl -E {use integer; say -1 % 5}
22:08:31 <ais523> "use integer" just gives access to the underlying operations on the processor
22:09:00 <ais523> arseniiv: I expected that to be a type error
22:09:15 <lambdabot> • No instance for (Integral (Integer -> Integer))
22:09:22 <fizzie> I'm sort of happy it follows the (a/b)*b + a%b == a rule under 'use integer'.
22:09:23 <int-e> unary minus is a special case in the Haskell syntax
22:09:39 <ais523> fizzie: 'use integer' is basically just metacircular
22:09:49 <arseniiv> I always forget what (-1) and (- 1) are and what they aren’t in Haskell
22:09:50 <ais523> so there are few guarantees about what it actually does
22:10:07 <int-e> arseniiv: they're the same
22:10:24 <int-e> arseniiv: unless you enable the NegativeLiterals extension
22:10:33 <arseniiv> for some time I’ll surely remember
22:10:53 <int-e> With that extension, -1 `mod` 5 == 4
22:11:04 <int-e> but - 1 `mod` 5 = -1
22:11:14 <ais523> how does -1 `mod` 5 even parse?
22:11:31 <int-e> ais523: unary minus, at a lower precedence than `mod`
22:11:41 <arseniiv> yes, it was strange and unobvious
22:11:45 <int-e> > negate (mod 1 5)
22:12:41 <ais523> I can sympathise with C's rules that unary operators are always tighter than anything else, it's at least easy to remember
22:13:34 <arseniiv> what is a precedence of unary minus exactly btw?
22:14:12 <int-e> this is why it has a precedence lower than ^ on level 8, and * is on level 7, as are all the other multiplicative operators, including `mod`.
22:14:15 <arseniiv> (or maybe it’s `mod` that has an unusual one?)
22:14:48 <imode> anybody know any literature on proving the turing completeness of communicating state machines?
22:14:51 <ais523> I'm surprised that `identifier` operators even have precedences of their own, rather than all being the same
22:14:59 <arseniiv> so -2 * 3 will parse as -(2 * 3)?
22:15:03 <ais523> imode: where does the infinite memory come from?
22:15:32 <arseniiv> ais523: yeah, you can assign even a fixity to ``-operation!
22:15:38 <imode> ais523: the channels used for communication are unbounded queues.
22:16:07 <imode> but from what I can see, don't contain more than one kind of symbol.
22:16:26 <ais523> imode: well it's obvious you can implement, e.g., cyclic tag with that
22:16:39 <int-e> arseniiv: "Prefix negation has the same precedence as the infix operator - defined in the Prelude (see Table 4.1). " https://www.haskell.org/onlinereport/haskell2010/haskellch3.html#x8-280003.4
22:17:52 <imode> ais523: right, I'm wondering if anybody's done it already. like I'd like to see a specific construction to wrap my head around it.
22:18:25 <arseniiv> int-e: thank you! Interesting, this choice seems not so odd now
22:19:04 <lambdabot> cannot mix ‘+’ [infixl 6] and prefix `-' [infixl 6] in the same infi...
22:19:27 <int-e> arseniiv: it's annoying :)
22:19:30 <ais523> but that isn't even an ambiguous parse :-P
22:19:49 <ais523> unless you parse 1 as a function and + as unary
22:20:00 <int-e> there is no unary +
22:20:19 <int-e> you can only make that case for 1 - -1
22:20:27 <ais523> how is the ambiguity in "f - g" fixed?
22:21:07 <b_jonas> ais523: and then there's prolog syntax, which allows the program to define almost any token as an infix operator
22:21:31 <ais523> Prolog doesn't have operators (other than arguably is)
22:22:19 <ais523> 3+4*5 is a data structure '+'(3,'*'(4,5))
22:22:26 <ais523> so it has infix constructors, not infix operators
22:22:58 <b_jonas> but only in the sense that scheme with eval only has constructors
22:23:02 <ais523> the is operator/statement happens to interpret this as an arithmetic expression, but it's is that puts the arithmetic interpretation on the structure, '+' and '*' by themselves are just identifiers
22:23:18 <b_jonas> you write constructors, but then they're going to be used as proper functions later if the expression is evaluated
22:23:26 <ais523> no, that's not right at all
22:23:33 <b_jonas> sometimes they're in a context when they're never evaluated of course
22:23:41 <ais523> Prolog programs /frequently/ use these punctuation constructors for arbitrary uses
22:23:49 <ais523> and they don't have any inherent meaning
22:24:05 <b_jonas> I've seen them use infix minus for ordered pairs
22:24:15 <int-e> The Haskell report is not very nice in this area... the grammar it provides is very ambiguous.
22:24:27 <arseniiv> why shouldn’t be constructors a sub-notion of functions?
22:24:35 <ais523> b_jonas: when golfing I normally use infix minus and infix slash as my main constructors for everything
22:24:41 <ais523> e.g. a list isn't [1,2,3], it's 1/2/3/e
22:24:44 <arseniiv> they take arguments and return something
22:24:58 <ais523> err, or possibly the other way round, I forget the associativity
22:25:12 <arseniiv> and then infix ones would be infix operators :)
22:25:32 <b_jonas> ais523: does that help? the list constructor . has some built-in syntax, and more importantly, library primitives for a few list operations
22:25:45 <b_jonas> the prolog libraries are quite lacking in useful functions
22:25:48 <ais523> b_jonas: [A|B] is way more verbose than A/B
22:25:58 <ais523> and the builtins are normally too verbose to use
22:26:10 <b_jonas> it's like prolog people enjoy inventing everything on their own
22:27:19 <arseniiv> or really prolog is an experimental language :P
22:27:46 <arseniiv> so it doesn’t need extensive libraries
22:27:47 <int-e> so you have to actually dive into https://www.haskell.org/onlinereport/haskell2010/haskellch10.html#x17-18100010.6 to see that for unary negation it checks the precedence of the preceding infix operator (if any)
22:29:38 <int-e> maybe the reason is that you don't want to disambiguate 1 - -1 - 1 (is it 1 - (- (1 - 1)) or (1 - (- 1)) - 1?)
22:30:21 <int-e> Meh I just don't know. It is what it is.
22:33:30 <ais523> b_jonas: prolog doesn't /need/ many builtins because it's so powerful
22:33:56 <ais523> I've been planning a declarative golflang, it can do a lot with only a fraction of the builtins of other golfing languages
22:33:58 <int-e> let us backtrack a bit here...
22:34:03 <imode> how in the world are CFSMs TC... it honestly looks like they're counter machines unless their channels can contain other "types" of messages, i.e other symbols.
22:34:12 <b_jonas> ais523: it needs _library functions_. that's not the same as "builtins".
22:35:05 <b_jonas> ais523: it's like Consumer Society. it only needs two builtins, because those already allow you to do anything. but I still want to add an optional library that can do commonly useful stuff like arithmetic,
22:35:26 <ais523> a language I'm working on only needs four builtins, but I'm planning to add a macro system
22:35:37 <b_jonas> I just show that it doesn't really add power to the language by writing a reference implementation in pure Consumer Society, but an interpreter may still offer a more optimized version of it.
22:35:48 <ais523> to let you do things in a user-friendly way while obviously not needing other builtins
22:35:52 <int-e> . o O ( Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster )
22:35:56 <b_jonas> I mean a version that isn't implemented in pure Consumer Society, but in implementation-defined ways.
22:36:02 <int-e> . o O ( Sometimes Google is less than helpful. )
22:36:27 <imode> communicating finite state machines. ;)
22:36:55 <b_jonas> I'm not planning to add "macros". Consumer Society doesn't need them. The library has a perfectly normal interface for something you'd write in Consumer Society.
22:37:20 <b_jonas> It uses such calling conventions that you can use it from pure Consumer Society and implement it in pure Consumer Society.
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22:37:33 <b_jonas> That restricts what interface it can have, but not too much to make it unusable.
22:37:50 <ais523> well, I'm aiming for a weird computational class (NL-complete)
22:38:04 <ais523> not only is it weird class-wise, it's also weird to program in
22:38:17 <ais523> e.g. it can add two numbers, but can't store the result of the addition, it has to basically output each digit as it's calculated
22:38:46 <b_jonas> two numbers as in bigints?
22:40:01 <b_jonas> that does sound weird, yes
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22:43:04 <ais523> btw, what do we do on the wiki about languages whose computational class is known, but doesn't have a category?
22:45:22 <b_jonas> ais523: well, (0) is such a language I think
22:45:49 <ais523> I think primitive-recursive is probably the best known class with no category
22:47:34 <imode> https://www.cmi.ac.in/~madhavan/courses/concurrency2016/literature/brand-zafiropulo-jacm83.pdf what the fuck. this paper references itself regarding the actual construction of memory devices.. yet I can't seem to find where they do it..?
22:47:40 <imode> maybe I'm just blind.
22:48:05 <imode> they say refer to reference 9... reference 9 is the paper I'm reading.
22:48:35 <ais523> is this a conference paper referencing a journal paper that's an expanded version of itself?
22:48:45 <int-e> Nope, it's referring to a technical report.
22:48:54 <int-e> Still, it's not the paper you're reading.
22:48:59 <b_jonas> uh... basically, if you give a (0) program integer inputs, then it's merely Turing-complete, but if you give it arguments that are not integers, then it can do as many operation as the, uh, Church-Kleene closure of the largest argument, if such a thing exists
22:49:23 <b_jonas> it's more than Turing-complete
22:50:04 <imode> oh I am so dumb, thanks int-e.
22:50:15 <b_jonas> I don't know if there's a name for that computational class
22:50:40 <ais523> that doesn't seem like a very commonly investigated computational class!
22:51:13 <b_jonas> Amycus is also higher than Turing-complete, but it only takes integer arguments, so it has a fixed computational complexity
22:52:15 <ais523> all >Turing languages are just "Uncomputable" on the wiki, though
22:52:24 <b_jonas> in particular, it has the same complexity as (0) with omega as an input and nothing higher, it can effectively do omega_1^{\mathrm{CK}} steps
22:52:25 <ais523> so we do have a category for them
22:52:58 <b_jonas> isn't that the category for !<Turing languages?
22:53:07 <b_jonas> or, um, !<=Turing languages
22:53:23 <ais523> sorry, for a moment I forgot complexities weren't ordered
22:53:49 <ais523> although a language which isn't Turing-implementable and also isn't Turing-hard would be pretty unusual
22:53:54 <int-e> imode: https://domino.research.ibm.com/library/cyberdig.nsf/1e4115aea78b6e7c85256b360066f0d4/b09aab28334bb3ff8525777b0047357b!OpenDocument
22:54:24 <int-e> That was surprisingly easy.
22:54:25 <imode> lmao we hit the same place. thanks!
22:54:52 <b_jonas> pretty unusual even by good esolangs standards? or only by the standard where random newbies post brainfuck substitutions and simple stack-based interpreters and call them "esolangs"?
22:55:04 <ais523> even by good esolangs standards
22:55:21 <ais523> unless, possibly, you count things like the ". ." not-a-token in HOMESPRING
22:55:30 <ais523> (which is defined to cause a temporal paradox)
22:55:35 <ais523> (with no further information)
22:56:11 <ais523> that's sort of the uncomputable version of X from HQ9+
22:57:28 <b_jonas> then there's the [[:Category:Unusable for programming]] or whatever it's called, for all the languages that let you print a constant message but not do anything else. common among bad esolangs.
22:58:35 <b_jonas> and then there's brainfuck with single level loops... what complexity class does that one have?
22:59:42 <ais523> but not FSM-complete, it's lower
23:00:28 <b_jonas> but I think that still counts as [[:Category:Unusable for programming]], right?
23:00:52 <b_jonas> or would if we cared enough about the pages for all those bad esolangs to cat'ze them
23:02:47 <ais523> it's best to leave terrible esolangs uncategorized if the author forgets, IMO
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23:04:16 <ais523> if you see a /good/ uncategorized esolang, feel free to categorize it
23:04:29 <int-e> A single level of loops is enough for a string reversal program in Brainfuck.
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23:05:33 <ais523> int-e: oh right, so more than FSM
23:05:43 <ais523> each individual loop is an FSM but they can store data for the later loops
23:06:27 <int-e> yeah that sounds right.
23:08:41 <HackEso> gingerbread man? ¯\(°_o)/¯
23:09:24 <b_jonas> why was gingerbread and milk even delivered by two different professionals? wouldn't the people who bought gingerbread also buy milk to drink with it?
23:09:34 <b_jonas> any sane person would centralize those to one job
23:10:10 <ais523> I don't think the gingerbread man is a real profession/job
23:10:37 <ais523> <Wikipedia> A gingerbread man is a biscuit or cookie made of gingerbread, usually in the shape of a stylized human, although other shapes, especially seasonal themes (Christmas, Halloween, Easter, etc.) and characters, are common.
23:10:59 <int-e> But no, they are entirely different... milk has to be delivered much more frequently and regularly than baking goods, because it expires so quickly.
23:11:52 <b_jonas> int-e: only if it's not properly pasteurized, or if the iceman doesn't deliver enough ice for your fridge. if you follow proper procedures, then you can keep milk for six weeks.
23:11:59 <ais523> also, fictional gingerbread men tend to be anthropomorphised versions of the biscuit/cookie, not someone who delivers gingerbread
23:13:12 <int-e> b_jonas: Hmm I'm not sure when pasteurization became common.
23:15:45 <b_jonas> int-e: dunno, it was already common in my childhood. all stores sold both normal pasteurized milk and ultra-high-temperature tasteless milk already. the difference was that (1) they sold 0.5 liter packs as well as 1 liter ones, and (2) they only sold them in nylon wrapping, none of the handful of modern variety packaging, such as waxed cardboard cartons, PET coke bottles with flat bottom and wide screw
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23:16:49 <b_jonas> those nylong things were among the earliest plastic packaging used, as far as my memory goes, equalled only by dark raisins in similar nylon packaging
23:17:15 <b_jonas> the raisins sucked, but we didn't know better, because we didn't have all the cheap tasty sweets like today
23:17:59 <b_jonas> I sound like a grumpy old grandpa now, don't I? (shakes his walking stick at the young whippersnappers) Get off my lawn, kids!
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23:22:39 <int-e> b_jonas: parrotting wikipedia, it became common in the middle of the last century, because that's when states began mandating pasteurization to prevent diseases like tuberculosis being spread that way.
23:24:28 <int-e> b_jonas: but what's unclear to me is how old the milkman profession is. I had assumed that it had been around long before Pasteur (1864 is when he came up with a heating procedure for preserving wine, which was later also applied to milk)
23:32:57 <fungot> int-e: the only way out. go on. run along now. i mean, from four storeys up it looked quite expensive, but that was only one kind of genetics.' susan peered around the edge of the mountains, and anyone who upsets important people is automatically not a good idea,' said
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23:41:49 <esowiki> [[Talk:APLWSI]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58990&oldid=54604 * Salpynx * (+469) compare Nil, and definitions
23:52:14 <esowiki> [[APLWSI]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58991&oldid=58986 * Salpynx * (+33) /* Example programs */ Self-Interpreter
23:55:12 <lambdabot> LOWI 062350Z AUTO VRB01KT 6000 -RASN FEW004 SCT020 BKN032 01/00 Q1030
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00:28:32 <esowiki> [[Talk:Nope.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58992&oldid=58927 * Areallycoolusername * (+394)
00:36:53 <b_jonas> arseniiv: Baez just wrote back. He fixed the nitrous oxide thing.
00:37:11 <ais523> b_jonas: that sentence out of context raises so many questions
00:37:14 <b_jonas> arseniiv: thanks for spotting it.
00:37:47 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah, especially since my current job involves working on something about something about something about something about nitrous oxide actually
00:42:32 <b_jonas> hmm. maybe eating either a wand of slow monster or a wand of speed monster should take a long time, the wand of slow monster because of the stored slowing charges escaping and slowing down the xorn, and the wand of speed monster because of http://www.mezzacotta.net/owls/?comic=770
00:51:56 <esowiki> [[Talk:Nil]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58993&oldid=53906 * Salpynx * (+1726) fix interpreter exploit
01:52:39 <b_jonas> M:tG stuff. The next set, Ravnica Allegiance, apparently has a keyword ability about how white soldiers were sworn to serve so much that they're still bound to serve after their death, as an oath-spirit.
01:55:09 <b_jonas> That much is great, but it's a mechanic for the Orzhov guild. But the original Ravnica story went that Agrus Kos of the Boros Guild was a famous watch captain who was forced to serve the Azorius guild after his death. So how will that be a mechanic on Orzhov cards?
01:55:34 <zzo38> I don't know why it is Orzhov.
01:55:50 <zzo38> Possibly because the effect is like white mana and black mana?
01:56:36 <ais523> b_jonas: Orzhov flavour has become, over time, "you incur debts to them and spend multiple lifetimes paying them off"
01:56:45 <b_jonas> zzo38: it's Orzhov because ghosts always made sense in black and white, the blue ones were just illusions, and Eventide and then Innistrad cemented them in black and white.
01:57:10 <ais523> it's not soldiers (at least, not just soldiers), it's random people who are in debt to the Orzhov
01:57:24 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, that is how I meant, it is black and white
01:57:32 <zzo38> ais523: OK, that also explains, then
01:57:58 <b_jonas> ais523: I'm not saying that it doesn't make sense in Orzhov. I just don't see how it will work, as it seems like this would force them to waste the main selling point of the ghost thing, which is Agrus Kos.
01:58:16 <ais523> b_jonas: Ravnica's flavour gets reinvented often enough that they likely don't care about Agrus Kos any mroe
01:58:35 <b_jonas> Hmm. So Agrus Kos doesn't have to serve forever then?
01:59:20 <b_jonas> Would that mean that of the original crew, only Niv-Mizzet will be here to stay? Or maybe some of the angels will still be here?
02:00:28 <ais523> Rakdos is the only original guild leader who's still guild leader as of Guilds of Ravnica
02:00:45 <b_jonas> Hmm no, the angels aren't from Ravnica.
02:00:46 <ais523> Niv-Mizzet is still alive but in hiding, apparently
02:01:04 <ais523> the full story is likely to be pay-for rather than free, though, so I don't know many of the details
02:01:53 <ais523> err, the Ghost Council isn't a single person, it's still leader of the Orzhov as of Guilds of Ravnica, but not as of Ravnica Allegiance
02:02:22 <b_jonas> Oh, you mean the novelization.
02:03:11 <b_jonas> I was wondering what you meant, because the ability doesn't demand an additional mana payment to get the ghost.
02:03:58 <ais523> why would it? they're in debt already
02:05:19 <b_jonas> Exactly, it makes sense that it's free. That's why your statement confused me.
02:06:04 <ais523> oh, you interpreted "full story" as an idiom, when I meant it literally (i.e. "the entirety of the plot")
02:09:19 <HackEso> Spelling of -ance/-ence words: advance, science, conference, experience, finance, insurance, licence, performance, reference, assistance, balance, defence, difference, distance, evidence, acceptance, appliance, audience, compliance, importance, influence, instance, intelligence, maintenance, preference, presence, sentence, sequence, substance, violence, absence, accordance, alliance, appearance, assurance, attendance, circumstance, clearance, confidence, c
02:09:30 <b_jonas> ^ doesn't have "allegiance"
02:13:48 <b_jonas> Heh heh. The new card frame allows Wizard to print split cards with more space in the text box, allowing more complicated split cards than ever.
02:14:00 <b_jonas> I wonder how the Azorius will use that power.
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02:56:33 <esowiki> [[Nellephant]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58994 * Ais523 * (+13572) new language
02:58:40 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58995&oldid=58959 * Ais523 * (+17) /* N */ +[[Nellephant]]
02:59:02 <esowiki> [[User:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58996&oldid=58790 * Ais523 * (+16) +[[Nellephant]]
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04:55:04 <imode> is there some kind of catalog on what kinds of memory you can equip an FSM with to make it turing complete?
04:55:13 <imode> tapes, queues, twin stacks, etc.
05:03:19 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58997&oldid=58974 * Oerjan * (+143) /* Computational class */ CS.SE answer for improved construction is up
05:23:35 <esowiki> [[Subtractpocalypse]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58998&oldid=55746 * Ais523 * (+84) /* See also */ [[Brainpocalypse]]
05:32:45 <esowiki> [[Re:direction]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58999&oldid=58825 * Ais523 * (+0) /* Computational class */ fmt
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09:21:24 <kolontaev> Hi all. Am I right Gödel's incompleteness theorems states that it's not possible to create a language in which the sentence "this phrase is a like" would be impossible?
09:26:29 <kolontaev> Hi all. Am I right Gödel's incompleteness theorems states that it's not possible to create a language in which the sentence "this phrase is a lie" would be impossible?
09:42:15 <zzo38> I don't think so? But maybe you mean something else.
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11:31:05 <wob_jonas> imode: on what to add to an FSM to make it Turing-complete: any of the following are enough: one half-infinite r/w tape with two symbols, one queue with two symbols, two stacks with two symbols, two bigint counters (you can consider a counter as a read-only tape with one symbol at the beginning and all zeroes after).
11:31:40 <wob_jonas> I'm not sure if there's an explicit "catalog" besides TCS textbooks that explain these with proofs
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17:23:10 <esowiki> [[Qwote]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59000&oldid=58969 * Areallycoolusername * (+365)
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18:16:28 <lambdabot> ais523 said 1d 1h 30m 13s ago: simpler construction (untested but feels like it should work): instead of one fallback counter per waterclock, have two global fallback counters that zero each other
18:16:28 <lambdabot> and decrement every waterclock, then use [<] as the inner loop rather than doing something mod-number-of-counters
18:19:05 <oerjan> @tell ais523 So much for not checking IRC until I'd finished the post. As suggested, I think I see how to keep your simpler construction non-negative. Putting the fallback counters and all counter cells at -5, -4, and 0 (mod 20) respectively is enough to allow each fallback to repair stray damage from the shifts of its own decrements without collisions.
18:21:58 <oerjan> @tell ais523 More specifically, a fallback cell can repair itself if it (1) runs often enough (2) is shifted from all other cells by x (mod n) where n>=4 and gcd(x,n)=1. (This ensures no collisions for the repairs.) Taking n=4 and 5 and combining handles two fallbacks.
18:23:19 <oerjan> @tell ais523 The repair distances then become 2x and -2x (mod n), while ordinary distances are x, -x and 0 (mod n).
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18:57:11 <esowiki> [[Hell69]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=59001 * Areallycoolusername * (+228) Created page with "Due to technical limitations, the title of this page is incorrect. The actual name is pronounced "Hell to the sixty-ninth power" or just Hell69. This is an esoteric programm..."
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19:05:14 <Phantom_Hoover> i've tried reading the documentation on this before but it evidently hasn't stuck
19:05:42 <Phantom_Hoover> how do the turing-complete x86 mov instruction things get the instruction pointer to go backwards?
19:11:43 <fizzie> If you mean the "mov is Turing-complete" paper, that one's a cheat, there's a single unconditional "jmp start" at the end.
19:11:46 <fizzie> For the M/o/Vfuscator, it was more complicated; I've forgotten what it did.
19:12:15 <imode> memory mapped instruction pointers are usually cheating but I don't think that's what movfuscator does.
19:12:37 <fizzie> Right -- M/o/Vfuscator uses a mov that causes a fault, plus some setup to make that an infinite loop.
19:12:58 <Phantom_Hoover> i noted that the last instruction in a dump on the github page is mov cs,eax
19:13:01 <fizzie> "While Dolan's paper required a jmp instruction, the M/o/Vfuscator does not - it uses a faulting mov instruction to achieve the infinite execution loop. If you're worried that this is still "jumping", the same effect could be achieved through pages aliased to the same address, wrapping execution around the upper range of memory, ring 0 exception handling, or simply repeating the mov loop indefinitely. A
19:13:06 <imode> didn't it use that fault to re-map memory and just keep shuffling pages back and forth to simulate a loop?
19:13:07 <fizzie> jmp is currently used to dispatch external functions - if this is a problem, avoid using external functions, or compile libraries with the M/o/Vfuscator as well."
19:13:13 <imode> there we go, yeah.
19:13:38 <imode> basically "virtual memory + mov is TC"
19:15:28 <imode> side note: it's possible to encode complete graphs within a hamming graph, yeah? up to a certain size.
19:15:56 <imode> anything past that size and you need to get crafty.
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19:16:20 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Loading an invalid selector definitely would, at least.
19:16:57 <fizzie> Oh, cs? In that case, loading anything does.
19:17:29 <fizzie> "The MOV instruction cannot be used to load the CS register. Attempting to do so results in an invalid opcode exception (#UD). To load the CS register, use the far JMP, CALL, or RET instruction."
19:17:43 <fizzie> (Basically, just one more way IP is special.)
19:18:05 <Phantom_Hoover> if you're gonna construct invalid opcodes i think it's a bit much to call it mov
19:18:53 <b_jonas> well, it's no wonder, because calling and returning to special segments have all sorts of extra semantics over the normal jump
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19:21:27 <fizzie> Well... it's "documented" under MOV, and the opcode reference just says "MOV Sreg,r/m16". And assemblers assemble it, as you saw. So while it's a reasonable argument to say it's an invalid opcode, it's still pretty mov-y.
19:21:52 <fizzie> CS (and all the other selectors) are pretty relevant in 32-bit protected mode.
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19:24:21 <b_jonas> do you mean 64-bit protected mode?
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19:24:43 <b_jonas> because it's more relevant in 32-bit protected mode than in 64-bit protected mode
19:24:57 <fizzie> In 64-bit mode, CS (as well as DS, ES and SS) have a hardcoded base of 0, but maybe they had some functionality still left for things other than address calculations? (FS and GS can have a non-zero base, loadable via MSRs, and have OS-specific uses, such as implementing TLS.)
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19:28:10 <fizzie> Looks like they do, yes.
19:28:12 <fizzie> "Code segments continue to exist in 64-bit mode even though, for address calculations, the segment base is treated as zero. Some code-segment (CS) descriptor content (the base address and limit fields) is ignored; the remaining fields function normally (except for the readable bit in the type field)."
19:31:48 <fizzie> I guess that makes sense; they've put the bit that makes it possible to run 32-bit code while in IA-32e (aka "long") mode into the CS descriptor.
19:31:59 <fizzie> For further details, consult the "Code Segment Descriptor in 64-bit Mode" chapter of Volume 3.
19:35:49 <b_jonas> fizzie: the bit that distinguishes 16-bit and 32-bit protected mode code is still in the code segment descriptor for example.
19:36:50 <fizzie> Yes, and the privilege bits as well.
19:38:15 <b_jonas> and I think the cpu still allows you to use the legacy 386 method for a call to the operating system through a gate, but only very old 32-bit programs use that, because fast system calls and new fast fast system calls were both introduced before 64-bit mode
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19:41:54 <fizzie> TBH, I'm not sure how much "less of a cheat" the mov fault is compared to the unconditional jmp, since the "host" code needs a `call sigaction` instruction anyway... although OTOH, there'd be non-"mov" code running anyway to load the program to memory, so that's kind of unavoidable when running under an operating system.
19:42:20 <fizzie> It's pretty funky, though -- it uses the "master_loop" label (the start of the movfuscated program) as the signal handler, which just never returns; it sets the SA_NODEFER flag so that the "signal handler" can be interrupted by the signal it's handling.
19:44:17 <fizzie> (I wonder if that consumes some stack per iteration, though. Presumably that state must go somewhere?)
19:45:55 <fizzie> Yes? I mean, that's part of the standard function epilogue when using ebp as a frame pointer?
19:46:53 <ais523> that's how you get rid of the stack that's consumed every iteration
19:48:00 <FreeFull> fizzie: I expect the kernel would push some stuff to the stack before calling the signal handler. Not sure though
19:49:00 <fizzie> Looks like that's in fact what it does, when using the "mov loop" as it calls it.
19:58:28 <b_jonas> fizzie: no, the MOV proof actually uses some crazy properties of x86 so that even for the fault handler it invokes and in system mode, it never runs any instruction other than MOV. the cpu only executes MOV, as well as generic fault-handling code that isn't specifically part of any named or directly callable instruction
19:58:43 <b_jonas> it's quite esoteric, you wouldn't believe it until you read the article
19:59:19 <b_jonas> and yes, the setup requires instructions other than MOV
19:59:28 <b_jonas> but after that, it's turing-complete
20:01:11 <b_jonas> and the whole thing requires a custom "operating system", one with very unusual settings that you wouldn't normally use, and that probably isn't convenient if you want to run ordinary programs
20:01:31 <b_jonas> it might not be able to run anything else
20:02:00 <b_jonas> the whole concept seems preposterous and impossible a priori, really
20:02:12 <b_jonas> normally you need an IRET to go back from system code to user code
20:02:53 <b_jonas> or one of these fancy modern fast system call or fast fast system call instructions
20:03:03 <ais523> what sort of system calls can movfuscator manage? none of them (i.e. pure computation only)?
20:03:31 <b_jonas> ais523: I think it's pure computation
20:03:43 <b_jonas> it only promises Turing-completness, not IO-completeness
20:04:00 <b_jonas> though I think it can write to or read from an IO device in a busy loop if it wants to
20:04:08 <b_jonas> as long as it's memory-mapped
20:04:26 <b_jonas> so it may be able to do some IO, like writing on the screen
20:14:38 <arseniiv> this thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baumslag%E2%80%93Solitar_group makes me feel like ordinals somehow
20:15:00 <arseniiv> like some beautiful monstrosity
20:18:42 <b_jonas> `bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/
20:18:43 <HackEso> bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/: b_jonas
20:18:54 <b_jonas> I saw that in the morning, but forgot to list it
20:19:02 <fizzie> b_jonas: That's not what the Dolan 2013 paper does, nor is it what https://github.com/xoreaxeaxeax/movfuscator does. The former uses a jmp, the latter runs under a Unix-like operating system and uses the SIGILL signal handler to loop, which definitely involves non-mov code. But I do remember there was something else that was closer to what you described.
20:19:50 <fizzie> (I just can't seem to be able to place it now, and it's not even linked from https://esolangs.org/wiki/Mov -- wasn't it someone here that did it better?)
20:20:05 <b_jonas> fizzie: yeah, it's probably another article, not the movfuscator
20:20:51 <b_jonas> also, for those who missed the news, there's a new IOCCC contest, with submission deadline in 2019-03
20:21:23 <fizzie> Sort of related, there was the https://github.com/jbangert/trapcc thing, which does computation without executing any actual instructions, just as part of the fault handling.
20:22:20 <ais523> fizzie: that technically also follows movfuscator rules :-)
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20:39:25 <Taneb> b_jonas: thanks for the heads up
20:40:02 <b_jonas> also, I'll have to look at this experimental "shelving" and "checkpointing" thing that subversion (apache svn) does to work around the problem that they're not a distributed vcs, and let you do something as a substitute of local commits not pushed to the server
20:40:14 <b_jonas> not the same as a true dvcs, but still have to read how it works
20:41:06 <b_jonas> it's been released for months now, but I haven't looked at the details
20:41:19 <b_jonas> this is about subversion 1.11 for the record
20:41:36 <b_jonas> http://subversion.apache.org/docs/release-notes/1.11
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21:15:17 <b_jonas> drat, I think they're trying to do something like git stashes, but without git, which is somewhat of a bad idea
21:16:30 <b_jonas> I think that's why I shelved the whole idea as useless and decided to wait the first time it came out
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21:35:30 <arseniiv> I feel now I comprehend a new wisdom: strongly avoid design by comittee whenever possible
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22:33:41 <ais523> committees are good at catching mistakes but bad at suggesting fixes to them
22:35:19 <b_jonas> which is why instead we use a bug report ticket system, with the developers free to ignore most of the flood of nonsense tickets they get, and the reporters need to take a BIT more care to make real bug reports not look like the ordinary flood of nonsense if they want the bug to get fixed
22:36:20 <b_jonas> I know that after my first report of the sqlite3 floating point to integer comparison bug got almost ignored. it's lucky that I got a reply to it that clued me into what the mistake was. it looked like the tons of clueless reports from people who don't understand how floating-point arithmetic and formatting works.
22:36:47 <b_jonas> it's my most useful bug report ever, and I have to make a proper short writeup about it and put it on my CV
22:37:46 <b_jonas> it's even plausibly deniable that I found it by looking at the source code. it's definitely a bug one could have found by blackbox testing.
22:38:47 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59002&oldid=58981 * Helen * (+0) Fixed hello world exampl
22:41:44 <ais523> b_jonas: do you have a link to the report?
22:42:28 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59003&oldid=59002 * Helen * (+2) Fixed hello world example*
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22:44:26 <b_jonas> ais523: Incorrect comparison between integer and floating-point number in SQLite database engine, leading to index corruption https://www.mail-archive.com/sqlite-users@mailinglists.sqlite.org/msg92963.html https://www.sqlite.org/src/tktview?name=38a97a87a6
22:45:13 <b_jonas> then there's a second one about an incorrect fix to that bug, but that's less interesting
22:46:24 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59004&oldid=59003 * Helen * (+149) Added a link to an alternate implementation at TIO & GitHub
22:49:03 <ais523> b_jonas: that's clearly a bug from the report, inserting a float between two ints left the ints out of order
22:51:22 <b_jonas> but I think it doesn't really help a bug report if it starts by claiming that it's a definite bug, because all the nonsense bug reports also do that
22:51:49 <b_jonas> in fact it seems like a slightly better strategy to ask whether it's a bug, and explain the problem clearly in a way they can tell whether it's a bug
22:51:57 <ais523> I guss you want to title it something like "reproducible pragma integrity_check failure"
22:52:12 <ais523> and then give the reproduction, without mentioning ints and floats
22:53:04 <b_jonas> yes, but I have to be careful with "reproducible", lest someone tries it with an msvc compiler or slightly different feature flags, and fails to reproduce it
22:54:02 <b_jonas> only one of the six permutations of the inserts work, which one depends on the compilation flags and stuff like that, and on msvc there was no bug at all (except for the short time when the incorrect fix was committed, but that never went to release)
22:54:32 <b_jonas> the body does say that it's reproducible though
22:55:27 <b_jonas> and it's not even too much of a lie, the index corruption explains why a non-transitive comparison is actually a serious bug in sqlite
22:55:51 <b_jonas> and yes, in this mail, I didn't mention the ints and floats
22:56:16 <b_jonas> the two sqlite devs can run a debugger just fine and localize the problem
22:56:37 <b_jonas> or look at the internal representation of the index
22:57:26 <b_jonas> or look at the query plan and see that the first query is iterating on the index in order
22:57:36 <b_jonas> yet somehow manages to print the rows in the wrong order
22:57:45 <b_jonas> in any case, they'll find the error
22:58:14 <b_jonas> obviously it's easy to say this in retrospect, when they have found the error and fixed it
22:59:07 <b_jonas> ais523: the non-obvious part is that the ticket at https://www.sqlite.org/src/tktview?name=38a97a87a6 wasn't filed by me. sqlite is developed in a closed way, only the dev team files bug reports. my mail doesn't mention the ints and floats
22:59:39 <ais523> right, I was wondering why you weren't credited
23:00:11 <ais523> there's a change I made to C-INTERCAL recently that hasn't been posted in the repo because the lack-of-feature reporter didn't get back to me about how they wanted me to credit them for the idea
23:01:50 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah, that would have made my job easier. this way I'll have to write a summary instead of having a single convenient bug ticket link that links to my email. many of their bug tickets do link to the email where it was reported.
23:02:48 <ais523> write one of those blogposts that gets posted to Reddit and everyone ignores
23:02:53 <b_jonas> I think they did link back to my mail from the ticket for a silly parsing bug
23:03:03 <ais523> report, ticket, an explanation of what caused it, an explanation of how the fix works
23:03:35 <b_jonas> ais523: no, I'll just write a simple HTML page with an explanation, perhaps with a lesson spinned about how you should be careful in perl about sort { $a<=>$b } even if none of your data are NaNs
23:03:55 <ais523> b_jonas: how does that break with non-NaNs?
23:04:26 <ais523> oh, if you mix ints and floats
23:04:30 <b_jonas> perl easily automatically numifies strings in a way that you get integers and floats mixed from the same perl code for different inputs
23:04:34 <zzo38> I think SQLite converts any NaN value into null, as far as I can tell, anyways
23:04:57 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, or at least close to always (I'm not sure if there's any way to get a NaN without breaking some requirement)
23:05:47 <b_jonas> ais523: I mean this is why it's specifically much more relevant to perl than to, say, C or python or ruby
23:06:03 <b_jonas> despite that my first bug report was ignored by claiming that C also compares ints to floats the buggy way
23:06:39 <b_jonas> which is true, but in C you have to be specifically working hard to get the bug because you have to explicitly make a mixed container of ints and floats, and then compare them without casting them to the same type
23:07:09 <b_jonas> which isn't something you can write without either explicitly writing three or four different comparisons for different types, or hiding it behind something even more complicated
23:07:41 <b_jonas> whereas in perl or sqlite, both of which offers you to numify strings easily to int or float depending on the string value, you get the bug easily without trying
23:08:36 <b_jonas> even in ruby or python you have to work at least a little, like creating the int and float values in different places of the code, though after that the non-homogeneous container and mixed comparison is no longer strange
23:08:51 <b_jonas> mind you, I think some of python and ruby actually compare ints to floats the correct way
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23:09:56 <b_jonas> which isn't too surprising given that both python3 and ruby transparently upgrades ints to bigints on an int arithmetic overflow
23:11:57 <b_jonas> but in sqlite3 it's even worse than in perl, because sqlite3 has automatic indexes that get corrupted from thi
23:13:17 <b_jonas> in perl, the p5p will always blame YOUR code forever without fixing the bug, and in fact it's quite possible that fixing the bug in perl _now_ will break some existing code that relies on the float-int comparison having that exact semantics
23:13:23 <b_jonas> so it's not clear what perl should even do about it
23:13:54 <ais523> I don't think it's fixable without specialcasing <=> inside sort
23:14:29 <ais523> <=> between float and int is not transitive in much the same way that + on floats is not commutative
23:15:12 <b_jonas> ais523: the problem is that sometimes you may want the correct comparison even outside of a sort
23:15:22 <b_jonas> it's not really specific to sort
23:16:05 <ais523> but <=> already returns the correct results, for floating-point values of correct
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23:17:10 <b_jonas> depending on what you mean by correct
23:17:24 <b_jonas> if you mix ints and floats, then I think it doesn't return the correct results,
23:17:38 <b_jonas> and if it returned the correct results from the early days of perl, that would have been better
23:17:42 <ais523> you mean it should return numerically correct results rather than converting either argument?
23:17:46 <ais523> that seems inefficient
23:18:11 <b_jonas> yes, and it's not too inefficient given all the things perl do, it's only a few arithmetic operations that the cpu can do well
23:18:24 <b_jonas> it's true that it's hard to write the code for that correctly, and hard to test that it's correct
23:18:40 <b_jonas> but when done right, it isn't actually too inefficient as arithmetic in perl goes
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01:43:56 <oerjan> Wut, I distinctly was in the query window...
01:45:19 <oerjan> @tell ais523 I found the smaller modulus 1,4,0 (mod 15). Pondering some proper searching...
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01:46:08 * oerjan slightly disturbed how mathematicians and programmers have two contradictory referents for the word "modulus"
01:52:54 <int-e> hmm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modulus has many suggestions
01:56:34 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Modulus_tectum.shell_001.jpg is actually quite pretty
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02:12:51 <oerjan> Darn I thought I'd found a tiny modulus in my search but I'd simply forgotten to apply mod :P
02:13:54 <oerjan> Obvious bad luck: The smallest it found now was 13.
02:14:09 <int-e> smallest modulus for what?
02:14:41 <oerjan> For the scheme to adjust ais523's simpler 2-bracket construction to avoid non-negative cells
02:17:15 <oerjan> @tell ais523 Searching say 1,4,0 (mod 13)
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02:28:45 <oerjan> @tell ais523 I found an assumption to relax; make that 1,5,0 (mod 12)
02:30:39 <oerjan> Hm curiously I think that's the one I thought of in bed this morning but thought didn't work.
02:31:35 <oerjan> (It has the nice property that x/y == y/x (mod 12) which made it easier to think of all cases by head)
02:32:45 <shachaf> Is there a language that has things that are something like inlined functions, but that can do things that regular functions can't, since they're always inlined?
02:32:46 <oerjan> Because that makes x and y symmetrical up to a constant multiple
02:33:21 <shachaf> For example, you maybe you could pass a goto label to them, even if goto labels don't exist as a first-class thing at runtime.
02:34:30 <shachaf> hth-tdnh-shocking is the standard oerjan three-way handshake
02:36:09 <oerjan> other macros like lisp's might work too
02:42:38 <shachaf> Macros are an answer, sure.
02:42:45 <shachaf> But I'd like something more structured, I guess?
02:47:08 <oerjan> I tried another relaxed assumption and now it tries to suggest 1,4,0 (mod 5) again
02:50:51 <b_jonas> shachaf: do constexpr functions in C++ (and future rust) count? they can be invoked in places where the result must be known in compile time, mostly in template parameters and array bounds.
02:51:05 <shachaf> I don't think so, they don't give you any new capabilities over regular functions.
02:51:21 <b_jonas> shachaf: but they're still not macros, and in runtime, they behave practically the same as ordinary functions, except with a few implicit annotations that you could just put on a regular function.
02:51:22 <shachaf> Template functions might count a bit.
02:52:06 <b_jonas> shachaf: and you don't mean full macros, such as metafont macros or povray macros, right?
02:52:56 <b_jonas> you said you want something more structured than lisp-like macros, and metafont macros are _less_ structured
02:54:44 <b_jonas> shachaf: how about functions in a stack-based language like postscript or s-lang or underload, where some functions can access an unbounded and unpredictable number of args on the stack?
02:55:01 <shachaf> I want it all to be resolved at compile-time.
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02:56:36 <b_jonas> I dunno, maybe something like those macro assemblers, where you could pass the name of a cpu register as argument to a macro you invoke
02:58:28 <b_jonas> shachaf: you do mean functions that a programmer can define, right? not just builtins that look like a function but do something normally impossible for a function, and the programmer can't even define a function that behaves exactly the same even if he can use the builtin in the impl, right?
02:59:21 <shachaf> And I'm imagining there are a bunch of things that you could pass to one of these functions.
02:59:30 <b_jonas> then I think consider that macro assembler thing, only perhaps imagine a hypothetical more structured language that is designed to output machine code
02:59:39 <shachaf> For example goto labels or early exit labels, and block of code.
03:00:12 <b_jonas> so the functions can take the name of a register as a parameter, or even an operand that can be either a gp register or a memory address with indexing as an argument,
03:00:36 <b_jonas> and the function definition can put that parameter as operand into a machine instruction that can be emitted with those as operand,
03:00:58 <b_jonas> which is only possible at compile time, since you can't really name those things or pass them as arguments to functinos at runtime
03:01:10 <b_jonas> they can also take a label
03:01:21 <b_jonas> gcc asm sort of works like that
03:01:37 <shachaf> Sure, you can imagine something like that, but I'm imagining it at a higher level.
03:01:37 <b_jonas> I don't know any language that actually works like this, but this is possible, right?
03:01:50 <b_jonas> you want at higher level? dunno then
03:02:00 <b_jonas> at higher level there's the lisp macros and the metafont macros
03:02:08 <shachaf> I want higher-level compile-time objects than names of registers.
03:02:32 <b_jonas> but not something as macro-argument-like as identifiers or expressions?
03:02:53 <b_jonas> nor even expressions of a particular syntactic precedence level or something?
03:03:13 <shachaf> I mean, maybe sufficiently hygienic macros would do it.
03:03:20 <b_jonas> how about C macros that take parts of identifiers? non-hygienic?
03:03:27 <shachaf> Or something. I don't know.
03:03:37 <shachaf> Certainly it can always be done with a macro, but it doesn't seem that great.
03:04:24 <b_jonas> maybe you could do this with a high-level language that compiles into a low-level language, but not machine code, and lets you write your choice of entirely high level code, or low-level code precise to what bytecode or whatever it is to emit
03:04:36 <b_jonas> I think those exist, but most of them are borderline esolangs
03:05:02 <b_jonas> not really your _choice_ of high-level or low-level code
03:05:38 <b_jonas> more like your choice of how you imagine it, because the high-level code is actually treated like the low-level code with lots of compile-time abstractions over it by the compiler, but it's a good enough facade that you can ignore it most of the time
03:05:54 <shachaf> Controlling which registers things go in seems like a very niche thing to me.
03:06:16 <b_jonas> perhaps some forth-alike could work
03:06:40 <b_jonas> one that compiles down to a code made of sequences of words that are interpreted, and lets you emit words into the code
03:07:52 <b_jonas> I think it lets you call compile-time functions which can emit code into the caller, and in the simplest case, when they don't do any compile-time computations, they're just ordinary inline functions or macros, but in general they could do more
03:08:08 <shachaf> I'm confused about what you're talking about.
03:08:36 <shachaf> I think this is a b_jonasism
03:08:46 <b_jonas> you know perl, right? consider a BEGIN{...} block inside a function
03:09:36 <b_jonas> the block contents are implemented while compiling, and it can do ... interesting things, like modifying $^H and $^W, which influence compilation in that a cow-reference to the current value of $^W at compile time is saved to many opcodes
03:09:43 <b_jonas> or something close to that
03:10:00 <b_jonas> the code in the BEGIN can even modify the parser, or modify the opcodes emitted if it really wants to
03:10:05 <oerjan> @tell ais523 I think that by making the fallback cells enough closer to each other than to the other cells, and maybe removing one other cell, 1, -1, 0 (mod 5) can be made to work.
03:10:38 <b_jonas> and there are use declarations that are implicitly calling a function at compile time, so it's like compile-time functions
03:11:01 <b_jonas> the forth thing is similar, I think, but with the compiler more accessible, so the compile-time functions can manipulate it more easily
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03:16:30 <esowiki> [[Hell69]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59005&oldid=59001 * Areallycoolusername * (+949)
03:17:15 <esowiki> [[Hell69]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59006&oldid=59005 * Areallycoolusername * (+20) /* Hello World Program */
03:18:52 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59007&oldid=58970 * Areallycoolusername * (+51)
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05:22:43 <oerjan> @tell ais523 I think a working cell placement should be: 5g(0)+1,5g(1)-1,5g(2),...,5g(c+1) where g(0)<g(1)<... is a Golomb ruler such that 3g(1)-2g(0) is not a member.
05:42:02 <oerjan> Hm that exception cell is wrong
05:49:51 <imode> I think I'm starting to understand why the connection machine used hypercube routing.
05:58:01 <oerjan> @tell ais523 * 3g(1)-2g(0)-1 is not a member.
06:05:27 <oerjan> @tell ais523 (Fallback cell 2 decrementing the latter causes a chain of decrements/repairs that munges cell 2 itself.)
06:10:00 <oerjan> That's a bit off by one numbering but I'm spamming...
06:25:38 <imode> if you had to connect some processors up, would you choose a static or dynamic topology. if the first, why, and what topology would it be and why? if the second, why, and what would the "infrastructure" look like to support that?
06:28:34 <imode> my issue with 1 is that depending on the topology you choose, embedding arbitrary graphs/connections gets difficult if not (from what I can see) impossible.
06:35:52 * oerjan is reminded of the D-wave "quantum computers"
06:36:08 <oerjan> Which use a fixed graph because it has to be done in hardware
06:36:27 <imode> the connection machine used a crazy hybrid between a lattice and a hypercube routing mechanism.
06:36:35 <imode> the second one used a 12D hypercube.
06:37:43 <imode> the kicker is finding the right "universal" topology. naively it'd be the complete graph.
06:40:03 <imode> the problem with that is that if you increase or decrease the computational power of a node, things get very easy or very hard depending on what you're doing. for instance, the game of life on a complete graph is.. I mean considering the entire rest of the graph is included in your neighbor relation, the combinatorial blowup is insane.
06:41:22 <imode> something like hamming graphs, which are cartesian products of complete graphs, might actually be better, because you can still embed complete graphs pretty trivially up to a point (considering you build up to complete graphs).
06:42:09 <oerjan> Presumably at some scale a complete graph gets too much cable compared to nodes
06:43:15 <imode> like if I had to specify a set of rewrite rules for a CA over a complete graph, I couldn't without specifying each "frame" of the CA as it evolves over time, because from any given cell I can see any other cell.
06:44:07 <imode> unless you defined something that's positionally agnostic, i.e the cell you're evaluating just knows how many of its neighbors are white or black.
06:44:55 <oerjan> that's going to be pretty trivial on a complete graph
06:46:53 <oerjan> (although there's this logic puzzle where you don't know your own color and have to deduce it, which would work)
06:47:15 <imode> heh, yeah. honestly it's so connected it can't be used for much.
06:47:27 <imode> so figuring out the next step "down" is the key.
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07:42:55 <zzo38> How to know what suit is trump in Arabian whist cards?
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07:45:11 <zzo38> O, wait never mind I found it
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08:43:55 <int-e> . o O ( Why would POTUS feature in Whist... oh never mind. )
08:44:10 * int-e sighs. (That was basically an actual brain dump.)
09:14:44 <zzo38> Do you like to play whist?
09:15:01 <zzo38> (Or do you prefer to play bridge?)
09:21:42 <Taneb> I've never played bridge but apparently my grandfather was great at it
09:21:45 <Taneb> He was taught by nuns
09:29:27 <Taneb> On a completely unrelated note, is there a term for, like, eventually idempotent? A function f is what I'm calling eventually idempotent if for all x in its domain there's a natural n such that f^n(x) = f^(n+1)(x)
09:30:56 <Taneb> myname: that doesn't feel right, to me that sounds like it just has to converge in the limit, which is a weaker condition
09:31:47 <myname> you want every input to have a fix point
09:32:14 <Taneb> Examples include the digital root function
09:32:31 <Taneb> And something I half remember from Lie algebra
09:34:08 <myname> presumable this 3n+1-thing i always fail to remember by name
09:35:14 <Taneb> Collatz sequence is a non-example, it ends up in a cycle 1-4-2-1 according to the conjecture
09:35:45 <Taneb> More examples: the parent function of nodes in a rooted forest
09:37:15 <myname> you could loosen the definition to allow f^n(x) = f^(n+k)(x) for some k and every x to include collatz :p
09:38:28 <Taneb> I guess, but that's not what I wanted :P
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13:25:30 <wob_jonas> shachaf: your question yesterday was interesting and made me wonder. now I'm trying to invent an esolang that's made of potentiall infinitely many languages, each of them just being a preprocessor that compiles to a similar language with a lower index,
13:26:18 <wob_jonas> sort of like http://math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/git-extensions , and that much is not even hard, but I'd like to give it interesting enough semantisc.
13:27:31 <wob_jonas> I don't think I even need a different language at the bottom, it can just be identical effectful preprocessors that you keep preprocessing until either you get an error or an empty program (a program made of only comments and whitespace and similar).
13:30:14 <fizzie> Taneb: I don't know if there's a standard term, but according to a quick search "attractive function" might still be free to describe that, and I think sort of appropriate.
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15:15:37 <fizzie> An attractive function is one where the union of the basins of attraction of all its fixed points is equal to the domain of the function. You heard it here first.
15:15:57 <HackEso> attractive function? ¯\(°_o)/¯
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16:00:37 <arseniiv> we need to define what’s a distractive function, too!
16:01:18 <arseniiv> if it’s something remotely dual, it would be strange, as attractive things tend to distract people also
16:01:52 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: I think the opposite of attractive is repulsive
16:03:00 <myname> i'd say, x*sin(x) is pretty repulsive
16:03:28 <arseniiv> (then, what is x in attractive : distractive = repulsive : x?)
16:06:28 <arseniiv> (it even resembles a bad joke: re[al] and im[aginary parts])
16:07:43 <myname> that re/im thing seems a bit far-fetched
16:10:00 <HackEso> AGDQ is Awesome Games Done Quick, an annual video games speedrunning event for charity every winter, see http://gamesdonequick.com and https://gamesdonequick.com/tracker/events/
16:37:02 <esowiki> [[Ummm...]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59008&oldid=58850 * Areallycoolusername * (+0)
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16:38:21 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Areallycoolusername * moved [[Dunke!]] to [[Dunka!]]: stuff
16:39:31 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59012&oldid=58995 * Areallycoolusername * (+0) /* D */
16:42:03 <esowiki> [[User:Areallycoolusername]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59013&oldid=58965 * Areallycoolusername * (+0)
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17:26:50 <esowiki> [[J--]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59014&oldid=44822 * Areallycoolusername * (-8)
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18:15:45 <esowiki> [[NEGATOR]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=59015 * Areallycoolusername * (+882) Created page with "[[NEGATOR]] is a language where you can only decrement a value. It was made by [[Areallycoolusername]]. == Commands == {| class="wikitable" |- ! NEGATOR Command !! Function..."
18:16:18 <esowiki> [[NEGATOR]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59016&oldid=59015 * Areallycoolusername * (+6)
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18:52:16 <oren> perl -le 'print join("",map({chr(33+rand 93)}1..40));'
18:52:23 <oren> about how insecure is this
19:02:58 <myname> what is this considered to do?
19:05:55 <fizzie> Just as a guess, it's intended to create crumbtographically secure random IDs.
19:06:28 <fizzie> (That's the sort of ID that, on a cursory inspection, is not distinguistable from a cryptographically secure one.)
19:07:42 <ais523> oren: it's possible that someone else is doing the same thing, giving the risk of a collision if you both start in the same second (I think Perl probably seeds with current time, not sure though)
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19:08:03 <ais523> in any case, generating 40 characters is pointless as you only have 32 bits of collision resistance (again assuming a 32-bit RNG seed)
19:08:34 <b_jonas> ais523: the glibc rand actually has a bit larger seed than that, I think, but still it's a bad idea
19:09:01 <ais523> I'm not convinced Perl is using libc rand either
19:09:06 <b_jonas> it's rather silly of perl to map its rand builtin to the libc rand function really
19:09:14 <b_jonas> ais523: last I checked, some years ago, it was
19:09:29 <fizzie> There's an explicit frowning-on in the rand perldoc, FWIW.
19:09:31 <b_jonas> it reinvents all the good parts of libc, but uses the bad parts, including rand
19:09:47 <fizzie> ""rand" is not cryptographically secure. You should not rely on it in security-sensitive situations. As of this writing, a number of third-party CPAN modules offer random number generators intended by their authors to be cryptographically secure, including: Data::Entropy, Crypt::Random, Math::Random::Secure, and Math::TrulyRandom."
19:09:50 <ais523> the documentation implies that it uses libc rand in some sort of nonstandard wrapper
19:09:52 <fizzie> It's even in bold type.
19:09:56 <ais523> presumably because it doesn't trust the reported version of RAND_MAX
19:11:33 <ais523> @tell oerjan it'd be possible for only one of the fallback cells to decrement the waterclocks (so the only decrements are fallbacks of each other, and one fallback of the waterclocks); that seems like it might make the modular math easier
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23:43:28 <esowiki> [[Hell69]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59017&oldid=59006 * Areallycoolusername * (+71) /* Instructions */
23:53:43 <esowiki> [[Hell69]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59018&oldid=59017 * Areallycoolusername * (+81) /* Hello World Program */
23:55:14 <esowiki> [[Hell69]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59019&oldid=59018 * Areallycoolusername * (+8) /* Hello World Program */
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00:25:20 <arseniiv> ha ha very funny, have they actually proven that that encoding is invertible?.. meh
00:26:07 <arseniiv> I almost want to write a comment there
00:39:48 <lambdabot> KOAK 082353Z 13005KT 10SM OVC033 14/11 A2994 RMK AO2 SLP140 60000 T01440111 10150 20128 56018
00:43:19 <int-e> arseniiv: there isn't much to prove?
00:43:59 <arseniiv> int-e: I think it’s outright invalid but I’m lazy to investigate
00:44:16 <arseniiv> the issue is with replacing each 0 with 69
00:45:07 <arseniiv> maybe two numbers could map to the same thing in the end
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00:45:22 <int-e> Oh I trusted the description that "the 0" is only one.
00:46:25 <shachaf> https://www.ioccc.org/2018/mills/hint.html
00:47:02 <arseniiv> not quite—right before the example they write “All zeros in the code is now a 69.”
00:47:17 <HackEso> ioccclist is update notification for when a new year of the International Obfuscated C Code Contest is announced, or the winners for a year is announced, or the source codes of winners are released. http://www.ioccc.org/#news
00:47:17 <int-e> arseniiv: Since it's restricted in ASCII you won't find any collisions.
00:47:32 <arseniiv> not that it’s a bit inaccurate in its own right…
00:48:04 <int-e> provably since 0x69 is not divisible by 69 (decimal)
00:48:54 <arseniiv> well anyway I won’t be the only one to dislike languages that are print-only or, for the other cases, ill-described :P
00:49:57 <arseniiv> not that I dislike under-Turing-complete formalisms, but that these have been used in much more interesting esolangs than of this sort
00:51:11 <arseniiv> but I don’t know policies of the wiki and anyway I hope this fellow would think up something interesting after all
00:52:15 <arseniiv> hope is all we have when luck is proven nonexistent :D
00:52:32 <int-e> but you're right that as an encoding of natural numbers, this is not injective. For example, 1340 and 60 map to the same string: 69x1692C (omitting the /-/31169) (is this the smallest example?)
00:55:41 <int-e> err, 69x1692d -- I forgot the final shift of letters and the preference for lower case
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01:16:56 <arseniiv> seems indeed 60 ~ 1340 is the smallest pair
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01:19:16 <arseniiv> though it’s quite impolite to use just ASCII output these days, so even larger pairs should really matter :P
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04:23:10 <oerjan> @tell ais523 You're right, with that assumption 1,0,0 (mod 4) works, and with a much simpler argument than I had for mod 5.
04:24:53 <oerjan> Googling today's Freefall claim, it looks to me like future Winston is passing on currently debunked science.
04:26:10 <oerjan> (Inert DNA simply does not last a million year unharmed, *and* the bacteria are suspiciously genetically close to modern ones.)
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05:23:23 <esowiki> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59020&oldid=58913 * Salpynx * (+3) /* Examples */
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05:57:00 * oerjan eats the last nutella ball
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06:52:38 <HackEso> Your omnidryad saddle principal ideal golfing toe-obsessed "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty evil grinch is a punctual expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it.
06:52:53 <shachaf> Hmm, it already says you're an evil grinch, I guess there's no upgrade from that.
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07:33:13 <esowiki> [[User talk:Graue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59021&oldid=30275 * Qpliu * (+713)
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09:06:31 <b_jonas> `bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20190108.html
09:06:32 <HackEso> bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20190108.html: b_jonas
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09:09:05 <oerjan> b_jonas: it looks clear that we can keep the cells non-negative in ais523's simplified two-loop BF construction
09:15:49 <b_jonas> oerjan: and, just to be clear, it still uses only a bounded number of cells, right?
09:17:05 <oerjan> Sure, the size is a function of the number of waterclocks converted
09:18:11 <oerjan> although i don't know the minimum number of that
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10:14:33 <esowiki> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59022&oldid=59020 * Salpynx * (+69) /* External resources */ WIP interpreter
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13:15:31 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59023&oldid=58997 * B jonas * (+63) /* Computational class */
13:16:07 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59024&oldid=59023 * B jonas * (-63) rv self
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15:48:53 <HackEso> olist 1151: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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18:01:17 <imode> what memory topologies lead to automata that aren't TC?
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18:02:45 <imode> a single one-way tape is one, off the top of my head.
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18:14:09 <imode> for cellular automaton, any graph that isn't infinite.
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18:45:14 <imode> . o O (though, I guess anything that isn't infinite can't be TC...)
18:47:27 <Taneb> imode: a single stack?
18:48:35 <imode> yup, that'd be one.
19:13:26 <imode> what'd be nice is to find the "general rule", so that you could recognize, for example, patterns of access over a particular graph and say "yup, that can't possibly be turing complete".
19:16:21 <imode> "what topologies can't be used as memory spaces for automata to be turing complete".
19:17:07 <imode> another trivial one is the graph with finite vertices but infinite edges (unless you can change the edge labels).
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19:30:31 <rain1> I don't understand
19:30:58 <rain1> is this like how regular languages are the finite automata?
19:46:18 <imode> it's related to the memory spaces for various automata. turing machines, for example, use an unbounded tape that's able to contain symbols. a cellular automaton like the game of life, for example, relies on the idea of an unbounded 2D grid.
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19:51:22 <imode> these are examples of spaces. they have some topology. their access patterns are "walks" along that topology. their topology is usually discrete/digital.
19:52:08 <imode> my question is, what spaces can't be used to simulate a turing machine.
19:53:06 <imode> it kind of boils down to "what spaces can you not embed a tape".
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20:00:44 <ais523> imode: it seems hard to characterise, e.g. imagine a directed graph formed out of connected loops, O→O→O→O…, that's TC if and only if there's no maximum limit on how large the largest loop can be
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20:01:09 <imode> are all the loops the same size?
20:01:28 <ais523> not necessarily; if they are it's sub-TC
20:01:37 <imode> that's what I figured.
20:02:11 <ais523> hmm, even more confusingly: suppose you have a root node that connects to a loop in one direction, and a copy of the same graph but with bigger loops in the other direction
20:02:27 <imode> could you visualize that?
20:02:38 <ais523> this is /also/ sub-TC even though, for any halting computation, you can find a tape on which it could be run
20:02:49 <ais523> because you don't have enough memory to reliably find the tape in question
20:04:36 <ais523> something like ⋌⋌⋌⋌⋌⋌⋌⋌⋌⋌ except imagine that everything is directed (to the right), you kern it more tightly, and there's an increasingly large loop connected to each of the top connections
20:04:51 <ais523> sorry, my extended-ASCII art isn't very good due to a lack of appropriate characters in Unicode
20:05:20 <imode> is it possible to even construct an algorithm to recognize graphs that we can't embed a tape in?
20:06:03 <ais523> given that we're talking about infinite graphs, just defining the I/O format for that would be hard
20:06:19 <imode> I'd be content with just LBAs.
20:06:37 <imode> "infinite, but to a certain point".
20:06:53 <imode> that's suceptible to induction.
20:07:05 <ais523> oh, I think you can run an LBA on that graph (assuming the loop sizes increase faster than linear) so long as you get to read the input twice
20:07:44 <ais523> it can be done with linearly-increasing loop sizes too if the constant factor is sufficiently large
20:08:05 <ais523> or, actually, no, even if the constant factor is small, you just need to increase the number of states
20:09:30 <ais523> now I'm thinking of another interesting graph: it's a directed graph with infinitely many connections, and each vertex has a (directed) path to every other, but the connections are chosen randomly
20:09:51 <imode> subset of the infinite complete directed graph?
20:10:05 <ais523> yes, but not just any subset
20:10:22 <ais523> needs to be a single connected component and infinitely large
20:10:30 <imode> you could actually simulate this with an infinite bitvector.
20:10:34 <ais523> I have a suspicion that this is TC with probability 1, but not absolutely TC
20:10:47 <imode> starting with the complete graph, enumerate all edges.
20:11:00 <imode> if there exists an edge, put a 0. if there doesn't, put a 1.
20:11:12 <imode> you can "carve" the particular graph out of the complete graph.
20:11:23 <ais523> right, you can define formats that describe a specific graph of this nature
20:11:45 <ais523> programming in this would be weird, the main issue would be trying to find the tape again whenever you expanded memory
20:12:15 <ais523> (assuming a deterministic or probabilistic language, a true-nondeterministic language would have no trouble)
20:12:30 <imode> the reason I ask is that I'm probing the possible space of physically realizable computations. universes with different topologies admit different tape embeddings of TMs.
20:12:54 <imode> under different physical laws, how would computation be affected.
20:13:15 <imode> and what's a good general "model".
20:13:23 <imode> something that can be ported from space to space.
20:17:03 <ais523> anything that's usable like a TM tape needs to contain a sufficiently large loop somewhere
20:17:10 <ais523> (necessary condition, not sufficient)
20:17:40 <ais523> otherwise you only have finite memory
20:17:42 <imode> TM tapes aren't looped.
20:17:53 <ais523> they are, the loop goes out to the right then back to the left
20:18:00 <ais523> I'm assuming you can visit the same cell multiple times
20:18:26 <imode> the traditional definition of a TM, unless I'm mistaken, involves a tape that extends infinitely to the right.
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20:18:45 <ais523> right, but the reason it's TC is that you can send the tape head to the right, then back to the left to reread data it's previously written
20:18:47 <Taneb> imode: the cells are connected in a directed graph which has cycles
20:18:52 <imode> ohhh right right right.
20:18:56 <imode> sorry, got mixed up.
20:19:25 <ais523> actually I don't think my O→O→O→O thing is IO-complete unless it can read data infinitely many times
20:19:25 <imode> yeah, so something like "tileable loops of sufficient size" would probably be a good generalization of the topology of a tape.
20:19:53 <ais523> as if you discover you don't have enough memory, you have to follow a → and lose everything but the TM's current state (which has finitely many possibilities)
20:20:06 <ais523> if you don't take input it's fine, just restart from scratch, if you do you have nowhere to store it though
20:21:27 <imode> that's actually interesting. "bubbles" of state.
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20:22:22 <esowiki> [[Nellephant]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59025&oldid=58994 * Ais523 * (+359) /* The preprocessor */ macro arguments
20:24:07 <ais523> imode: something that I've noticed in several languages is connections that the TM can only cross in one state
20:24:40 <ais523> like, you have a loop of tape, but one particular point on the tape causes the TM to forget what it's doing as it crosses it
20:25:37 <ais523> An Odd Rewriting System is like that, the "tape head" forgets what it's doing when it goes from the rightmost end of the tape back to the leftmost end, it made the TCness proof somewhat difficult (although AORS lets you add extra elements "inside" the loop to get its infinite memory, and that operation seems to help in other ways too)
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20:30:21 <imode> interesting! I'll brb.
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22:13:31 <b_jonas> ais523: "suppose you have a root node that connects to a loop in one direction, and a copy of the same graph but with bigger loops in the other direction" =>
22:13:51 <b_jonas> I don't see why that wouldn't be Turing-complete. can't you just copy the tape to the next tape when you run out of it?
22:14:03 <ais523> no, this is unidirectional
22:14:10 <ais523> so once you've gone to a loop you can't go back
22:14:48 <b_jonas> you can only move in one direction
22:18:16 <b_jonas> unrelated: anyone wants to recommend speedruns on AGDQ2019 that are worth to watch?
22:18:39 <b_jonas> Oh! There's an "Another world" run. I must watch that.
22:19:03 <rain1> the sonic run was fun
22:21:19 <b_jonas> which sonic? I'm guessing there's more than one sonic run on a GDQ
22:21:27 <pikhq> There was a whole block.
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22:39:47 <b_jonas> there's an _original_ sonic game? wow
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22:48:21 <rain1> I don't see why you're insulting me like that
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23:48:49 <esowiki> [[NEGATOR]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59026&oldid=59016 * Areallycoolusername * (+639)
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10:44:07 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Maxim228 * New user account
10:46:29 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59027&oldid=58933 * Maxim228 * (+25)
11:00:14 <esowiki> [[LolKek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59028&oldid=58882 * Maxim228 * (+852)
11:00:44 <esowiki> [[LolKek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59029&oldid=59028 * Maxim228 * (+11)
11:12:01 <esowiki> [[Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59030&oldid=58892 * Maxim228 * (+29)
11:13:56 <esowiki> [[Category:Turing complete]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59031&oldid=37109 * Maxim228 * (+11)
11:17:16 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59032&oldid=59024 * Maxim228 * (+42) /* Related languages */
11:25:39 <esowiki> [[Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59033&oldid=59030 * Salpynx * (-29) Undo revision 59030 by [[Special:Contributions/Maxim228|Maxim228]] ([[User talk:Maxim228|talk]])
11:45:16 <esowiki> [[LolKek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59034&oldid=59029 * Maxim228 * (+30)
11:47:56 <esowiki> [[LolKek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59035&oldid=59034 * Maxim228 * (+35)
12:05:24 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Featured languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59036&oldid=37402 * Maxim228 * (+42)
12:07:02 <esowiki> [[LolKek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59037&oldid=59035 * Maxim228 * (+31)
12:22:51 <esowiki> [[LolKek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59038&oldid=59037 * Maxim228 * (+18)
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13:27:30 <wob_jonas> https://scifi.stackexchange.com/q/114665/4918 "Is magic in The Magicians [sci-fi novel by Lev Grossman] Turing complete?"
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13:32:59 <Taneb> I think I've got that book, although I haven't yet read it
13:41:22 <Taneb> wob_jonas: I'll have to try to actually read it
13:42:07 <wob_jonas> Taneb: if you do read it and find that it contains an interesting esolang, please tell some things about it in a wiki entry
13:42:49 <wob_jonas> although... would a language used for practical magical tasks count as an esolang?
13:43:03 <Taneb> Magic is often esoteric unto itself
13:43:25 <HackEso> This channel is about programming -- for the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.
13:44:44 <fizzie> I haven't read that (although the concept is familiar to something else I vaguely remember), but I'd guess even if the magic in it might qualify as an esolang, they won't actually describe it well enough to write a spec.
13:46:33 <wob_jonas> although we don't strictly need a full spec
13:47:18 <wob_jonas> hmm... does the magic in the Ra series by Sam Hughes https://qntm.org/ra have an entry yet?
13:47:31 <fizzie> I think what I'm vaguely remembering is the Wizardry series -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Cook -- where I think a programmer got transported to a place where magic was more or less an esolang, and proves to be able to do a lot of things the local inhabitants can't due to understanding how it works.
13:48:38 <fizzie> https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/WizBiz has a better description.
13:49:05 <fizzie> Oh, I wasn't thinking -- I guess linking to That Wiki is not really proper netiquette.
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13:49:49 <wob_jonas> just put a TVTROPES WARNING for it after the fact
13:50:59 <fizzie> I think you did. Thanks.
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14:04:39 <arseniiv> wob_jonas> hmm... does the magic in the Ra series by Sam Hughes https://qntm.org/ra have an entry yet? => definitely what I’ve thought also after you’ve mentioned the topic! [spoiler alert] Ra had accomplished a spell that was making other spells, though I don’t understand/remember for what cause and if it was so restricted to be unable to useldn’t use its own magic-extrinsic resources
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23:22:11 <arseniiv> I had accidentally thought it could mean this
23:22:43 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
23:23:43 <arseniiv> ok I’ll show myself to the bed
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23:29:10 <b_jonas> arseniiv: almost. it's actually APL division, which differs from division in that zero divided by zero gives zero.
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23:47:32 <b_jonas> although strangely, an infinity APL-divided by an infinity isn't zero, according to J
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00:37:14 <esowiki> [[P0pCrn]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=59039 * Areallycoolusername * (+1925) Created page with "[[P0pCrn]] is an esolang made by [[User: Areallycoolusername]]. It's based off of x86 Assembly and it has cells. == Specifics == [[P0pCrn]] code is made up of three columns..."
00:39:58 <esowiki> [[P0pCrn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59040&oldid=59039 * Areallycoolusername * (+39)
00:42:28 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59041&oldid=59012 * Areallycoolusername * (+34) /* P */
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00:50:07 <oerjan> let's see if e's done anything bannable
00:53:45 <esowiki> [[Category:Turing complete]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59042&oldid=59031 * Oerjan * (-11) Undo revision 59031 by [[Special:Contributions/Maxim228|Maxim228]] ([[User talk:Maxim228|talk]])
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00:57:40 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59043&oldid=59032 * Oerjan * (-42) Undo revision 59032 by [[Special:Contributions/Maxim228|Maxim228]] ([[User talk:Maxim228|talk]]) (It's really not interesting enough for this list, or funny.)
01:00:57 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Featured languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59044&oldid=59036 * Oerjan * (-42) Undo revision 59036 by [[Special:Contributions/Maxim228|Maxim228]] ([[User talk:Maxim228|talk]]) (Featuring process doesn't work that way, and the language isn't good enough.)
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03:38:49 <esowiki> [[Nellephant]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59045&oldid=59025 * Zzo38 * (+30) Link to the explanation of NL complexity class
03:44:15 <esowiki> [[Nellephant]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59046&oldid=59045 * Ais523 * (-3) it's not in policy yet, but people have been unpiping links to Wikipedia too (which makes sense as they may not be expecting interwiki links), so do that here too
03:44:55 <esowiki> [[Nellephant]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59047&oldid=59046 * Ais523 * (-11) remove some redundancy that was created as a result of the previous change
03:46:30 <ais523> I was working out how to write 2-SAT in Nellephant
03:47:25 <ais523> co-2-SAT is easy, 2-SAT is possible but mindbogglingly hard (it's worth looking up the basic idea behind the NL/co-NL equivalence, it's not obvious at all) just to solve as a decision problem
03:47:39 <ais523> (note: this is all in my head, I didn't write it down)
03:49:25 <ais523> doing 2-SAT and actually writing the results takes some thought too; the idea is to build the implication graph, then if anything's forced due to being implied by its negation, output that, and if the value of something isn't forced, take the longest chain of connected components you can go through going forwards via implications from both it and its negation, and whichever one has the shorter chain is the one you should output (you can prove that
03:49:27 <ais523> this will produce consistent outputs)
03:49:31 <oerjan> Nellephant sort of needs a way to do the Immerman-Szelepcsényi Theorem
03:50:19 <ais523> if the two chains are the same length, you need to make an arbitrary-but-consistent-within-the-connected-component choice, such as by looking at whether the alphabetically earliest variable in the connected component happens to be negated or not
03:54:57 <oerjan> hm, i'm not sure if i previously knew 2SAT was NL-complete
03:55:30 <oerjan> i think i thought it was P-complete or so
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03:56:19 <ais523> P-complete is hard to define
03:56:27 <ais523> NP-complete means "if this is in P, everything else is"
03:56:30 <ais523> but the existence of P is important
03:56:55 <ais523> if, say, 3SAT turned out to be in NL (which would be very unexpected), I don't think that automatically forces NP=NL
03:56:57 <oerjan> not really, you use L-reductions (or maybe even lower), like with NL-completeness
03:56:58 <salpynx> do you have an interpreter for Nellephant in progress? Without examples or an interpreter to play with, I haven't quite got the NL-ness yet, not that I have sat down to give it a proper investigation
03:57:16 <ais523> so you need to say "NP-complete via reductions in P"
03:57:23 <ais523> I think NL would make a decent reduction class for P-completeness
03:57:30 <ais523> salpynx: not currently, I want to write one but haven't started
03:58:10 <oerjan> there are NP-complete problems that are so with L-reductions. i suspect 3SAT is one.
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03:59:47 <ais523> I'm still trying to get my head around rules of NL like "you can iterate over a set only if you know how many items it has"
03:59:50 <oerjan> so 3SAT in NL should imply NL=P.
04:00:34 <ais523> I'm curious as to whether you can do primality testing in NL; it wouldn't surprise me if you could even if NL≠P
04:00:42 <ais523> but I also think nobody knows how
04:01:27 <oerjan> i think would have been a famous result if anything lower than P was known
04:01:32 <salpynx> does that mean the instruction set is still in progress, or are you confident that the existing instructions are sufficient for NL?
04:01:45 <ais523> yes, even being in P was a big result
04:01:52 <ais523> salpynx: confident in the existing instructions
04:02:04 <ais523> the spec should be final atm (apart from possibly the preprocessor but that doesn't change computational class)
04:10:03 <oerjan> ais523: stasoid has started expanding the polyglot again, at ferocious speed
04:11:52 <ais523> that's ridiculous, but amazing
04:11:59 <ais523> for anyone who hasn't seen it, oerjan is talking about https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/102370/add-a-language-to-a-polyglot
04:12:11 <esowiki> [[$ $]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=59048 * Cortex * (+813) Created page with "{{DISPLAYTITLE:$_$}} {{WIP}} '''$_$''' (pronounced ''soos'') is an esolang by [[User:Cortex|]] where strings of a certain character are commands. == Constants == {| class="wik..."
04:12:25 <ais523> a polyglot so ridiculous that it just ended up being called "the polyglot"
04:16:48 <ais523> I got massively downvoted on global SE meta for pointing out that there's an instance of a person getting a silver tag badge off a single question
04:16:57 <ais523> because apparently they thought PPCG shouldn't count
04:17:05 <ais523> (stasoid, off the polyglot)
04:21:36 <salpynx> amazing, I found another unicode based esolang, A-gram, to add to my list of non-Latin charset esolangs, and the last entry is in Nikud, for which I added a page on the wiki for recently
04:22:20 <ais523> most modern golfing languages use their own set of 256 arbitrary characters (that either fit their commands well, or that are easy to type)
04:22:35 <ais523> they typically contain all of printable ASCII though, so I'm not sure that counts
04:26:08 <ais523> re primes-in-NL, a simpler problem is if division (or modulo) is in NL
04:26:27 <ais523> multiplication is, I think (in fact, it's in L)
04:31:53 <oerjan> division is too, but that's a major theorem
04:33:09 <ais523> this is what's so weird about L and NL, "addition is easy, subtraction is easy, multiplication is easy, division is so difficult it's a major theorem that it's even possible"
04:33:15 <ais523> and that's why it makes a good esolang
04:33:33 <oerjan> multiplication of a _list_ of numbers is as hard as division
04:35:28 <salpynx> Trivially appending or adding 'ιιθθχθιιιιιιιιιιιιιιιιυς' to the polyglot in a way that doesn't break anything else would output 241 in my esolang ΙΧΘΥΣ...
04:35:58 <oerjan> the main trick in the proof is finding a way to compare numbers in "list of == m_i (mod p_i) form"
04:36:48 <oerjan> once you have that, you can do arithmetic in this form, and then convert it to a normal base
04:37:26 <oerjan> *"list of == m_i (mod p_i) restrictions" form
04:38:01 <ais523> salpynx: those are rarely used characters, there's probably somewhere safe to put it
04:38:27 <ais523> there are many points in the polyglot that are only parsed by languages which parse everything, and such languages typically ignore characters they don't understand
04:38:43 <ais523> try putting it in with the emojis, for example
04:39:17 <ais523> OTOH, verifying the polyglot still works can be hard, we have a verifier on Try It Online that can do much of the work but I don't think it does everything
04:40:57 <salpynx> Yeah, I'm not confident I'd be testing it sufficiently.
04:41:55 <ais523> we used to have a chatroom specifically for this but it got frozen for lack of use
04:41:58 <oerjan> i've been helping stasoid with some haskell variants but i left the testing to em
04:42:27 <salpynx> I thought I could get another easy entry with my Runic language, but it can't output anything that's not runes either... I made a point of added that as a feature :)
04:44:40 <ais523> you're reminding me of the HELL0 W0RLD! program in Radixal!!!! ("(Yes, this means that although arbitrary codepoints can be input, it's not possible to output arbitrary codepoints; programmers are encouraged to find similar-looking codepoints that can be output and use them instead.)")
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06:18:14 <esowiki> [[$ $]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59049&oldid=59048 * Cortex * (+1597)
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07:50:56 <esowiki> [[Hexlr7]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59050&oldid=58948 * Cortex * (-191)
07:51:45 <esowiki> [[DoEverything();]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59051&oldid=58415 * Cortex * (+144)
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08:18:21 <esowiki> [[$ $]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59052&oldid=59049 * Cortex * (+370)
08:26:12 <esowiki> [[$ $]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59053&oldid=59052 * Cortex * (+124)
08:39:00 <esowiki> [[List of quines]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59054&oldid=56825 * Cortex * (+22)
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09:39:03 <b_jonas> composite testing in P => yeah, I remember that, it was in my lifetime. people kept amending their textbooks that used to give composite testing as an example for something for which we knew a randomized polytime algorithm even in the stronger sense but not a deterministic one.
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09:39:25 <b_jonas> ais523 downvoted on main meta => that's normal. lots of things get surprisingly downvoted on main meta.
09:39:57 <b_jonas> stasoid expanding the polyglot => yeah. also bountied it by the way, to encourage company.
09:47:39 <b_jonas> rhetorical question. back when I was young, I asked a friend for a simple way to write a polyglot program that was definitely valid in both C and C++, but could distinguish whether it was compiled by C or C++, but _without_ using the difference in the type of character literals (like '0')
09:48:11 <b_jonas> he gave me an answer, but that answer was more complicated than just sizeof(0<1)
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09:48:50 <b_jonas> the question is, since this was well after C++03, and we've both read Strostroup's book for the C++03 edition, how the heck did we not know that 0<1 was a bool in C++?
09:48:59 <b_jonas> I mean, how did we both miss such a simple fact?
09:49:12 <Taneb> What's sizeof(bool)?
09:49:25 <b_jonas> Taneb: 1 in most implementations, though it could be 4
09:49:45 <b_jonas> it's implementation-defined
09:49:59 <Taneb> Are there implementations allowed where sizeof(bool) == sizeof(int)?
09:50:53 <b_jonas> Taneb: there could be, according to the standard. I think there might actually be ones, but I'm not sure.
09:51:09 <b_jonas> it comes up on RISC CPUs that can't address bytes in the memory
09:51:37 <Taneb> So, sizeof(0<1) may fail to distinguish
09:51:48 <b_jonas> but those are typically old RISC CPUs, so it's not clear if there are C++ compilers for them
09:52:07 <b_jonas> Taneb: yeah. I wonder if there's an easy way to always distinguish that works for this polyglot
09:52:21 <Taneb> Behaviour of auto?
09:52:24 <b_jonas> as in, it's easy to distinguish just in C++ with overloaded functions, or just in C11
09:52:35 <b_jonas> Taneb: this was back in C++03, C++11 auto didn't yet exist
09:52:57 <b_jonas> or... maybe it did but it was in its infancy and not yet in compilers we had
09:53:12 <b_jonas> this was probably around 2007 or so
09:54:12 <b_jonas> I think I missed the type difference because I didn't expect that strostroup would change such a basic fact of C. I mean, how _dares_ he?
09:54:34 <b_jonas> mind you, it doesn't actually cause incompatibility in practice, but still
09:56:24 <Luciole> hm, can you design something that relies on the difference in `NULL` in C and C++?
09:57:29 <b_jonas> Luciole: perhaps... I don't know. you have to be careful because how null pointers work at compile time keeps getting changed even between C versions and between C++ versions
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09:59:04 <Taneb> NULL could be the same in both before C++11
09:59:50 <Taneb> Or... maybe it's more subtle than that
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10:01:11 <b_jonas> and you have to mind the other differences between C and C++ pointers at compile time: in C you can implicit convert a (void *) to any pointer freely, and implicit convert a pointer to an integer with a warning, or something like that, whereas in C++ both are errors
10:01:16 <b_jonas> I don't recall all the details
10:01:57 <b_jonas> Taneb: nope, it was effectively 0 in C but (void *)0 in C++... perhaps not definitely those expressions, but that's the gist, they're different types
10:02:17 <b_jonas> which is why you can't put an uncasted NULL into an execl or other vararg call and expect it to pass a pointer
10:03:57 <Taneb> b_jonas: I'm not convinced that's true (looking at cppreference.com)
10:06:40 <b_jonas> Taneb: it's not true in the sense that you still can't do it in C++ in theory, because it's the wrong type of pointer
10:06:49 <b_jonas> (void *) versus the expected (char *)
10:07:25 <b_jonas> and in practice it Just Works in C because an int 0 will be seen as a null pointer by the actual compiled vararg function on typical machines
10:07:59 <Taneb> I mean, I'm not convinced it's true that they were effectively different
10:09:43 <b_jonas> Taneb: hmm... maybe I remember this wrong. I don't know.
10:10:10 <Taneb> I'm looking at https://en.cppreference.com/w/c/types/NULL and https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/types/NULL as my sources
10:11:46 <b_jonas> Taneb: apparently it's backwards from what I said
10:11:56 <b_jonas> it was (void *) in C but int in C++
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10:19:04 <esowiki> [[LolKek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59055&oldid=59038 * Maxim228 * (+1408)
10:24:04 <esowiki> [[$ $]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59056&oldid=59053 * Cortex * (+638)
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10:37:09 <esowiki> [[LolKek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59057&oldid=59055 * Maxim228 * (-229)
10:47:50 <esowiki> [[LolKek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59058&oldid=59057 * Maxim228 * (+0)
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11:16:21 <b_jonas> "Im Krapfenwaldl" by Johann Strauss would work well as a monophonic tune, even from just a beeper. It should be used as background music for early levels of a video game. Only... some people hate the Strauss family's music, so the game would need a setting to mute them, plus an allergy warning on the packaging.
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16:21:03 <esowiki> [[User talk:Maxim228]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=59059 * Maxim228 * (+11) Created page with "Hey,wassup?"
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18:50:10 <esowiki> [[Mu6]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59060&oldid=57127 * BMO * (-15)
18:50:52 <esowiki> [[Alchemist]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59061&oldid=58525 * BMO * (+53)
18:51:34 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59062&oldid=58867 * Areallycoolusername * (+285)
18:52:30 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59063&oldid=59062 * Areallycoolusername * (+14) /* P0pCrn */
18:55:51 <esowiki> [[P0pCrn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59064&oldid=59040 * Areallycoolusername * (+20)
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20:50:04 <esowiki> [[$ $]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59065&oldid=59056 * Cortex * (+31)
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01:18:21 <fizzie> It's about time for the TASBot segment.
01:27:07 <esowiki> [[List of quines]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59066&oldid=59054 * Oerjan * (+0) /* Cheating Quines */ ginorst
01:34:26 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59067&oldid=59063 * Oerjan * (+0) deorr
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06:59:56 <zzo38> Now I made a implementation of Z-machine in Glulx. Do you have a suggestion to call it please?
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17:51:17 <esowiki> [[$ $]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59068&oldid=59065 * Cortex * (+372)
17:51:47 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59069&oldid=59041 * Cortex * (+10)
18:06:53 <esowiki> [[User:Cortex]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59070&oldid=58757 * Cortex * (+10)
18:07:07 <esowiki> [[User talk:Cortex]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=59071 * Cortex * (+1) Created page with ","
18:07:53 <esowiki> [[DoEverything();]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59072&oldid=59051 * Cortex * (+33)
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18:32:33 <esowiki> [[$ $]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59073&oldid=59068 * Cortex * (+79)
18:32:50 <esowiki> [[$ $]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59074&oldid=59073 * Cortex * (+7)
18:33:08 <esowiki> [[$ $]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59075&oldid=59074 * Cortex * (+7)
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19:55:55 <b_jonas> I bought a chair for the computer desk at home. Now I just have to disassemble the old broken chair, take it down to the basement storage room, then assembling this one.
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22:06:16 <zzo38> Do you like Z-machine with Glulx?
22:16:32 <esowiki> [[AlgorE]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=59076 * Areallycoolusername * (+548) Created page with "[[AlgorE]] is an esolang made by [[User: Areallycoolusername||Areallycoolusername]]. It's was made to calculate algebra equations so you don't have to. == Explanation == In..."
22:18:30 <esowiki> [[AlgorE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59077&oldid=59076 * Areallycoolusername * (+90)
22:19:08 <esowiki> [[AlgorE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59078&oldid=59077 * Areallycoolusername * (-6)
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22:45:06 <salpynx> For anyone interested in TWM development: I'm currently working on a Deadfish to Waterfall Model transpiler, to enable arbitrary output sequences in TWM using a slightly modified version of the current Waterfall Model output extension... still have a few things to add and bugs to fix. I have not yet added Deadfish arithmetic overflow, and I'll probably make it a feature toggle, since the main useful thing is output (not the math!)
22:45:58 <salpynx> output / usage example: ./ratiofall.exe -e "$(./deadfish2waterfall.py "ioiidoiodiido" | tail -n1)" ==> 1 2 3 3
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00:05:05 <oerjan> (why did i quit irssi instead of disconnecting from tmux, stupid brain)
00:05:37 <oerjan> wait, this looks netsplitty
00:06:14 <oerjan> oh, just a display error
00:07:43 <oerjan> (i'd reattached tmux with a different terminal size, so it got confused until i actually resized the window)
00:07:57 <oerjan> it's still confused, gah!
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00:09:30 <oerjan> apparently it was necessary to quit tmux altogether
00:11:21 <oerjan> (dear old hagbart got fried after a scheduled outage, so i've had to change to a different host, but putty makes it awkward by not showing it in the session menu)
00:12:39 <oerjan> (also by seemingly having no way to edit the host or remote command of an already set up session)
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00:53:15 <salpynx> `for i in {1..4};do echo $((($i*$i)));done
00:53:15 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: for: not found
00:59:24 <fizzie> You'll need two `s and a space for that.
00:59:40 <fizzie> `` for i in {1..4};do echo $((($i*$i)));done
01:00:37 <salpynx> good to know that is there!
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01:22:09 <salpynx> `` uname | sed 's/x/ls/;s/u/do/;s/[Ll]/w/g'
01:23:46 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59079&oldid=59069 * Areallycoolusername * (+34) /* A */
01:37:49 <esowiki> [[User talk:Salpynx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59080&oldid=58089 * Areallycoolusername * (+259)
01:38:46 <esowiki> [[User talk:Salpynx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59081&oldid=59080 * Areallycoolusername * (+138)
01:39:53 <salpynx> `` dd if=/dev/urandom bs=100 count=1 | grep -aoE '\w' | head -n5
01:39:53 <HackEso> 1+0 records in \ 1+0 records out \ 100 bytes copied, 0.000792064 s, 126 kB/s \ 5 \ p \ r \ D \ T
01:40:32 <salpynx> ok, I'll stop before I break something...
01:47:11 <oerjan> it is harder to break than you think
01:47:21 <oerjan> in a way cannot just be `reverted, that is
01:48:23 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59082&oldid=58862 * Cortex * (+556) /* Joke/Silly Ideas */
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01:53:04 <salpynx> does it filter commands, or is it just running whatever it gets in a shell? It feels like I could write or read from the file system, or extract more info from the system than should be public
01:53:24 <fizzie> There's a few layers of sandboxing.
01:53:36 <fizzie> The command runs in a one-off UML instance, for one thing.
01:53:53 <salpynx> I couldn't find any docs for Multibot / HackEso, to learn how to use it for other languages
01:54:50 <salpynx> `` uname -a| sed 's/x/ls/;s/u/do/;s/[Ll]/w/g'
01:54:51 <HackEso> windows (none) 4.9.82 #6 Sat Apr 7 13:45:01 BST 2018 x86_64 GNU/winux
01:54:58 <fizzie> (And the only filesystem bound read-write in that umlbox is the working copy of the Mercurial repo, for reverting changes.)
01:55:50 <fizzie> If you mean documentation on what's installed there, yeah, that's pretty sparse.
01:57:52 <fizzie> And of course it's a living system, so it keeps changing.
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01:59:43 <fizzie> There's a sort-of copy of the old EgoBot with its esolang interpreters, available via the bin/! wrapper, but I'm not sure they all really work right.
01:59:46 <fizzie> `! befunge "olleh">:#,_@
01:59:53 <fizzie> Guess some of them at least do.
02:00:20 <HackEso> 1l \ 2l \ adjust \ asm \ axo \ bch \ befunge \ befunge98 \ bf \ bf16 \ bf32 \ bf8 \ bf_txtgen \ boolfuck \ c \ cintercal \ clcintercal \ cxx \ dimensifuck \ forth \ glass \ glypho \ haskell \ help \ java \ k \ kipple \ lambda \ lazyk \ linguine \ lua \ malbolge \ pbrain \ perl \ qbf \ rail \ rhotor \ sadol \ sceql \ sh \ slashes \ trigger \ udage01 \ underload \ unlambda \ whirl
02:02:17 <esowiki> [[User:Cortex]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59083&oldid=59070 * Cortex * (+196)
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02:03:20 <fizzie> Oh, I wrote a bunch of stuff without noticing you were out.
02:03:41 <fizzie> Well, it's at http://esolangs.org/logs/2019-01-13.html#lY
02:04:10 <fizzie> You can browse the filesystem (except for the ephemeral tmp/ subdirectory) at https://hack.esolangs.org/repo and the "wisdom" database -- `? foo -- has *some* documentation, though a lot of those entries are not particularly useful.
02:04:18 <salpynx> I see it in the logs, my connection seems flakey today
02:04:33 <salpynx> `` cmd="true $(xxd -b -g0 <<< "Hello, World!"|sed 's/^.*: \([^ ]*\).*$/\1/'|tr -d '\n'|sed 's/^0//;s/0\|\(1\)/| true \1/g;s/1/<:/g')";result=$(eval "($cmd; echo "\${PIPESTATUS[@]}")2>/dev/null");echo $result | perl -lpe 's/[^10]//g,$_=pack"B*",$_'
02:04:34 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/`: line 5: xxd: command not found \ .
02:11:20 <esowiki> [[$ $]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59084&oldid=59075 * Cortex * (+92)
02:19:28 <HackEso> The ! or interp command calls various language interpreters transfered from old EgoBot. Try `url ibin/ for a list.
02:34:43 <salpynx> `! malbolge uba`_^!!~|:{V7C5SQPra<.n,IlHFh3fBB/R>>O*^\rJvu 5
02:34:44 <HackEso> invalid character in source file
02:35:06 <salpynx> `! malbolge 'uba`_^!!~|:{V7C5SQPra<.n,IlHFh3fBB/R>>O*^\rJvu'
02:35:07 <HackEso> invalid character in source file
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02:37:42 <esowiki> [[Cactusi]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=59085 * Areallycoolusername * (+1712) Created page with "[[Cactusi]] is an [[esoteric programming language]] created by [[User: Areallycoolusername|Areallycoolusername]]. Instead of code being made of text or numbers, you code in th..."
02:41:10 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59086&oldid=59007 * Areallycoolusername * (+30) /* General languages */
02:48:36 <oerjan> . o O ( that name is just to annoy my grammarian heart, right? )
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03:10:16 <oerjan> `! malbolge (=<`#9]~6ZY32Vx/4Rs+0No-&Jk)"Fh}|Bcy?`=*z]Kw%oG4UUS0/@-ejc(:'8dc
03:10:25 <oerjan> ok it was just the program
03:21:51 <int-e> but I'm leaving in approx. half an hour, traveling... can't be bothered to fix underspecified esolangs.
03:22:16 <int-e> (especially when they are basically yet another text encoding)
03:23:22 <int-e> I wonder how original the dancing men cipher was in its days ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Adventure_of_the_Dancing_Men )
03:24:08 <int-e> There should be a Unicode proposal for that one.
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03:48:12 <oerjan> today's mezzacotta made me chuckle for once
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04:13:27 <salpynx_> I've being playing with HackEso's Malbolge interpeter in direct msg
04:13:36 <salpynx_> `! malbolge uba`_^!!~|:{V7C5SQPra<.n,IlHFh3fBB/R>>O*^\rJvu
04:13:37 <HackEso> invalid character in source file
04:13:53 <salpynx_> `` ./interps/malbolge/malbolge.bin <(echo 'uba`_^!!~|:{V7C5SQPra<.n,IlHFh3fBB/R>>O*^\rJvu') <<< 5
04:14:03 <salpynx_> works, so I think it's a quoting issue
04:15:18 <salpynx_> `` inp=A;for i in {1..7};do echo $inp;inp=$(./interps/malbolge/malbolge.bin <(echo "'"'tB_:^"J[l4{8DCBvQ21ap(^nI[)"hD}fA@yQ``^)([[6XGmE~Co{gyOdvh(f%dFE"DBk|{[xw;vVsN7Rpo\m10|hgg*ecDC<_') <<<$inp);done
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04:26:58 <salpynx> `` inp=A;for i in {1..7};do echo $inp;inp=$(./interps/malbolge/malbolge.bin <(echo "'"'tB_:^"J[l4{8DCBvQ21ap(^nI[)"hD}fA@yQ``^)([[6XGmE~Co{gyOdvh(f%dFE"DBk|{[xw;vVsN7Rpo\m10|hgg*ecDC<_') <<<$inp);done
04:27:24 <salpynx> that gives output in direct msg with HackEso <shrug>
04:39:08 <salpynx> `` inp=A;for i in {1..7};do echo $inp;inp=$(./interps/malbolge/malbolge.bin <(echo "'"'tB_:^"J[l4{8DCBvQ21ap(^nI[)"hD}fA@yQ``^)([[6XGmE~Co{gyOdvh(f%dFE"DBk|{[xw;vVsN7Rpo\m10|hgg*ecDC<_') <<<$inp);done
04:41:19 <salpynx> ...the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.... but sometimes that works out.
04:44:14 <oerjan> salpynx: it might be timing out
04:44:21 <oerjan> then it gives no output
04:44:40 <HackEso> #!/bin/sh \ CMD=`echo "$1" | cut -d' ' -f1` \ ARG=`echo "$1" | cut -d' ' -f2-` \ exec ibin/$CMD "$ARG"
04:45:05 <HackEso> #!/bin/sh \ CMD=`echo "$1" | cut -d' ' -f1` \ ARG=`echo "$1" | cut -d' ' -f2-` \ exec ibin/$CMD "$ARG"
04:45:15 <oerjan> ok those are identical...
04:45:58 <salpynx> I have not yet worked out exactly what that malbolge code is doing, I "discovered" it. If you use it recursively starting with `A` it outputs ALGOMIJ, other starting characters give different / shorter loops e.g. T => T <esc> o <esc> o .. etc
04:46:04 <oerjan> `` ibin/malbolge 'uba`_^!!~|:{V7C5SQPra<.n,IlHFh3fBB/R>>O*^\rJvu'
04:46:27 <oerjan> well it didn't give error
04:46:46 <oerjan> `` ibin/malbolge 'uba`_^!!~|:{V7C5SQPra<.n,IlHFh3fBB/R>>O*^\rJvu' <<< 5
04:47:02 <oerjan> ok so that part's ok, the `! code is at fault
04:49:00 <oerjan> `` echo 'malbolge uba`_^!!~|:{V7C5SQPra<.n,IlHFh3fBB/R>>O*^\rJvu' | cut -d' ' -f2-
04:49:01 <HackEso> uba`_^!!~|:{V7C5SQPra<.n,IlHFh3fBB/R>>O*^\rJvu
04:49:07 <salpynx> that's a neater way to write it
04:49:26 <oerjan> hm ok that still looks fine...
04:49:53 <oerjan> `` ls -l bin/\! bin/interp
04:49:54 <HackEso> lrwxrwxrwx 1 1000 1000 6 Jul 8 2017 bin/! -> interp \ -rwxr-xr-x 1 1000 1000 96 Apr 7 2018 bin/interp
04:50:48 <oerjan> `sled bin/interp//3cARG="$(echo "$1" | cut -d' ' -f2-)"
04:50:50 <HackEso> bin/interp//#!/bin/sh \ CMD=`echo "$1" | cut -d' ' -f1` \ ARG="$(echo "$1" | cut -d' ' -f2-)" \ exec ibin/$CMD "$ARG"
04:51:46 <oerjan> `! malbolge uba`_^!!~|:{V7C5SQPra<.n,IlHFh3fBB/R>>O*^\rJvu
04:51:47 <HackEso> invalid character in source file
04:53:24 <oerjan> `! ../bin/echo uba`_^!!~|:{V7C5SQPra<.n,IlHFh3fBB/R>>O*^\rJvu
04:53:25 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/!: 4: exec: ibin/../bin/echo: not found
04:53:54 <oerjan> `! ../../bin/echo uba`_^!!~|:{V7C5SQPra<.n,IlHFh3fBB/R>>O*^\rJvu
04:53:54 <HackEso> uba`_^!!~|:{V7C5SQPra<.n,IlHFh3fBB/R>>O*^
04:55:16 <oerjan> `sled bin/interp//s,bin/sh,bin/bash,
04:55:18 <HackEso> bin/interp//#!/bin/bash \ CMD=`echo "$1" | cut -d' ' -f1` \ ARG="$(echo "$1" | cut -d' ' -f2-)" \ exec ibin/$CMD "$ARG"
04:55:27 <oerjan> `! malbolge uba`_^!!~|:{V7C5SQPra<.n,IlHFh3fBB/R>>O*^\rJvu
04:55:55 <oerjan> it still doesn't really do anything because `! doesn't support passing input to the program
04:55:56 <salpynx> `! malbolge uba`_^!!~|:{V7C5SQPra<.n,IlHFh3fBB/R>>O*^\rJvu <<< G
04:55:56 <HackEso> invalid character in source file
04:56:22 <salpynx> ah, I was looking at the source to see if there was a way to provide input
04:56:30 <oerjan> it's better to use the ibin/... if you want that, i guess.
04:56:52 <HackEso> ibin/malbolge: POSIX shell script, ASCII text executable
04:57:02 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/file/tip/ibin/malbolge
04:57:07 <salpynx> `` ibin/malbolge 'uba`_^!!~|:{V7C5SQPra<.n,IlHFh3fBB/R>>O*^\rJvu' <<< !
04:58:14 <oerjan> the bug was because bin/sh is dash, which has some annoying behavior of echo iirc
04:59:51 <salpynx> Thanks for looking into it. So it's the !! characters. I'll see if I can find a way to properly escape in dash, but probably later :)
05:00:31 <salpynx> I guess not too many people have been using the malbolge feature of HackEso to hit this ;)
05:02:47 <oerjan> it gets turned into carriage return by dash's echo
05:03:33 <oerjan> and the bug wasn't really malbolge-specific, but people haven't been using that many other languages either.
05:03:46 <oerjan> hm i hope this doesn't break the C one
05:04:03 <oerjan> `! c printf("hello!\n");
05:04:22 <oerjan> `! c printf("hello!\nthere");
05:05:39 <oerjan> salpynx: i just changed ! to use bash instead.
05:10:40 <salpynx> ah, cool. The two examples I was trying both accepted input, so they are still not going to work.
05:11:47 <salpynx> I think that worked on the old version. Most of my Malbolge discoveries take input
05:12:37 <salpynx> `` ibin/malbolge "'"'tB_:^"J[l4{8DCBvQ21ap(^nI[)"hD}fA@yQ``^)([[6XGmE~Co{gyOdvh(f%dFE"DBk|{[xw;vVsN7Rpo\m10|hgg*ecDC<_#?!!<}:{2x0TSucrNNMK9llGjFgC' <<< M
05:12:51 <salpynx> `` ibin/malbolge "'"'tB_:^"J[l4{8DCBvQ21ap(^nI[)"hD}fA@yQ``^)([[6XGmE~Co{gyOdvh(f%dFE"DBk|{[xw;vVsN7Rpo\m10|hgg*ecDC<_#?!!<}:{2x0TSucrNNMK9llGjFgC' <<< N
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05:43:11 <zzo38> As far as I can tell, there is no way in Node.js to execute a function in a separate call stack. I think such a thing would sometimes be useful, mainly for emulation of other JavaScript APIs, although it has other uses too.
05:43:47 <zzo38> What do you think?
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08:36:25 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=59087 * A * (+899) Created page with "''Printscript'' is an esoteric scripting language. This programming language only supports the "print" function. (Astonishingly, it can also create an [[Infinite loop]] based..."
08:39:11 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59088&oldid=59087 * A * (+28) Fix things
08:40:22 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59089&oldid=59088 * A * (-1)
08:42:01 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59090&oldid=59089 * A * (+62) /* Example Programs */
08:43:27 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59091&oldid=59090 * A * (+2) Final Fixes
08:46:01 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59092&oldid=59091 * A * (+6)
08:47:39 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59093&oldid=59092 * A * (-20) /* Example Programs */
08:49:39 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59094&oldid=59093 * A * (+147)
08:52:05 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59095&oldid=59094 * A * (+57) Trying to make it simpler
08:53:00 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59096&oldid=59095 * A * (+0)
08:56:34 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59097&oldid=59096 * A * (+105) /* Syntax */
08:57:56 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59098&oldid=59097 * A * (-1) /* Example Programs */
08:58:43 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59099&oldid=59098 * A * (-1) /* Example Programs */
09:01:30 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59100&oldid=59099 * A * (-5)
09:08:17 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59101&oldid=59100 * A * (+10) That's not an infinite loop
09:11:27 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59102&oldid=59101 * A * (+169) /* Syntax */
09:11:50 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59103&oldid=59102 * A * (-19) /* Syntax */
09:13:25 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59104&oldid=59103 * A * (+117)
09:14:01 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59105&oldid=59104 * A * (-11)
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09:16:24 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59106&oldid=59105 * A * (-11)
09:17:01 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59107&oldid=59106 * A * (-53) /* Interpreter(in C) */
09:18:48 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59108&oldid=59107 * A * (+34) /* Example Programs */
09:19:19 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59109&oldid=59108 * A * (+15)
09:19:57 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59110&oldid=59109 * A * (+16)
09:20:26 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59111&oldid=59110 * A * (-64) /* Example Programs */
09:20:36 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59112&oldid=59111 * A * (-15)
09:23:31 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59113&oldid=59112 * A * (+5) /* Example Programs */
09:24:16 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59114&oldid=59113 * A * (-6)
09:25:48 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59115&oldid=59067 * A * (+43) /* Prelude */
09:25:54 <lambdabot> EDDM 130920Z 25015KT 9999 -RA FEW009 BKN012 03/01 Q1011 R88/290095 NOSIG
09:28:56 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59116&oldid=59114 * A * (+93) /* Interpreter(in C) */
09:31:28 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59117&oldid=59116 * A * (+11) /* Interpreter(in C) */
09:32:13 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59118&oldid=59117 * A * (-13) /* Interpreter(in C) */
09:35:48 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59119&oldid=59118 * A * (+31)
09:45:57 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59120&oldid=59119 * A * (+6)
09:47:22 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59121&oldid=59120 * A * (-3) /* Syntax */
09:48:54 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59122&oldid=59121 * A * (+130)
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09:50:32 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59123&oldid=59122 * A * (+91) /* Example Programs */
09:53:06 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59124&oldid=59123 * A * (+63) /* Example Programs */
09:53:27 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59125&oldid=59124 * A * (+3)
09:55:22 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59126&oldid=59125 * A * (+76)
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11:53:41 <salpynx> Suggestions to improve 'Cactusi': Use the modern Romanian subscript-comma orthography to correct the plural: Cactuși, extend the language from simple text encoding to incorporate something from the work of the Romanian mathematicians Alexandra Bellow and Cassius Ionescu-Tulcea (Lifting theory, building on John von Neumann), incorporate Cactus graphs with category theory, and somehow stay true to the original "vision" of the chrome
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12:12:22 <salpynx> above inspired by a comment earlier today on "fixing underspecified esolangs". I haven't come up with any concrete fixes though, I got very distracted looking for photos of Alexandra Bellow with catctuși
12:12:38 <salpynx> The closest I found was her and this Yucca https://adevarul.ro/assets/adevarul.ro/MRImage/2014/10/24/544a73520d133766a83508d6/orig.jpg
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12:20:15 <b_jonas> salpynx: you mean like, specify the syntax and deterministic execution order of (0)? because that's sort of unnecessary, it's not like those change anything important. or fixing languages that are so underspecified that you can get multiple entirely different languages from them?
12:21:11 <b_jonas> that's usually not worth either because those languages suck.
12:22:20 <b_jonas> when it is worth is somewhere in the middle, when you already have a clearly interesting language, but there's some overlooked ambiguity in the specs
12:24:01 <b_jonas> and that ambty makes it impossible to program, in which case usually the first person who publishes a good interpreter or sample programs is the one who gets to fix the spec,
12:24:21 <b_jonas> or they ask the creator of the language and they clarify.
12:24:39 <salpynx> Well, I tried to understand the current binary encoding of that language, and gave up, so that's not a good start. There's not even an example to point out there is a mistake in the spec.
12:27:01 <salpynx> This was primarily intended as a joke fix to ... hmm, the creator hasn't classified that one as a joke esolang.
12:29:38 <salpynx> The initial motivation was to fix Oerjan's objection to the grammar. Cactuși _is_ the valid plural of cactus in Romanian, and there is an interesting background to the orthography of that 'ș' letter, use of cedilla subscript, and inclusion into the Unicode spec
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12:31:18 <salpynx> then I looked for something interesting and related to computation from Romania and found the Ionescu-Tulceas, so the whole investigation ended up being quite interesting.
12:32:56 <salpynx> Hijacking the name and making a completely different esolang based on category theory is probably rude, so I'll just have to either make a suggestion, or let it go :)
12:36:16 <b_jonas> yeah, unless the name is just the name of a page created by a spambot
12:36:51 <salpynx> ... taking something a bit ridiculous and running with it to make it serious seems to amuse me. That's why I like Deadfish and its 'overflow' arithmetic
12:39:03 <salpynx> Like "Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download"? Not a joke lang, based on lamdba calculus
12:39:20 <salpynx> I guess it's been done before
12:42:01 <salpynx> There could be a teaching opportunity here to help an enthusiastic beginner... although I'm struggling to find and understand what von Neumann and the Ionescu-Tulceas wrote about lifting theory
12:49:39 <salpynx> on a serious note, there should be a guide or something for beginners to explain the levels of languages, encoding vs computation, elements of a language that can be designed or borrowed. Some of these seem to be common pitfalls and providing an easy to process intro early might save some misspent bytes
12:52:27 <salpynx> Found the stub for exactly that: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Introduction_to_esolang_design It's clearly not ready to be linked from the main page yet, but there's a goal.
12:52:56 <salpynx> Good intentions from 2015 :)
12:53:48 <b_jonas> I'm disassembling the broken chair
12:53:54 <b_jonas> then I'll assemble the new one
12:54:10 <b_jonas> between the two I have to take the old chair down to the basement
12:54:53 <salpynx> is that a computational metaphor?
12:56:03 <b_jonas> I broke the chair at the computer desk at home
12:56:26 <b_jonas> the old one was great, but getting a bit worn out
12:56:41 <b_jonas> that it broke simplifies my decisions a lot
12:56:58 <b_jonas> I don't have to think about whether I should have the torn leather restored
12:57:08 <b_jonas> I can just throw away the whole thing because the frame broke
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13:05:55 <salpynx> b_jonas: Oh, I just got that your reference to (0) was a concrete one to a language you tried to figure out and added a wiki entry for ... I first thought you meant generally empty or contentless!
13:08:00 <b_jonas> not the first time the lack of a name confuses someone in chat
13:08:23 <b_jonas> it was definitely worth to use (0) as the name
13:08:54 <b_jonas> now I'll take it to the basement
13:09:02 <salpynx> I played around with David Madore's Юᓂ곧⎔ and came up with a start for an interpreter. I I enjoyed trying to figure out the underlying intent of the language, using clues in the sparse description to infer more about it.
13:10:41 <salpynx> Once I figured out he had to be using his understanding of C and was just making unicode substitutions for C like things, it was easy to follow through with more, taking what had been written down in spec and examples as gospel, and creatively fill in any gaps
13:14:54 <salpynx> b_jonas: Your Amycus probably is the canonical example of a new language spawned from a misunderstanding of unclear specifications of another. Precedent! ;)
13:17:17 <salpynx> anyway, good luck with the chairs. I need to sleep
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13:27:10 <b_jonas> the basement is not only creepy but also very dirty
13:27:28 <b_jonas> salpynx: nope, the specs weren't unclear
13:27:36 <b_jonas> it was spawned from misunderstanding of clear specifications
13:29:07 <b_jonas> also, I have some more questions about cryptography
13:29:30 <b_jonas> first one is, in assymetric crypto, why do we talk about "public keys" and "private keys", rather than "public locks" and "private keys"?
13:30:00 <b_jonas> is this only because of the incidental symmetry between them in RSA, which was the first well-known protocol?
13:30:53 <b_jonas> I have other question too, but leaving them to later
13:34:05 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59127&oldid=59126 * A * (+64) /* Example Programs */
13:48:13 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59128&oldid=59127 * A * (-121)
13:49:08 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59129&oldid=59128 * A * (-3) /* Example Programs */
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14:33:04 <esowiki> [[Call/cc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59130&oldid=46221 * Rdococ * (+635) Added a better explanation of continuations.
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16:58:15 <b_jonas> `bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20190112.html
16:58:16 <HackEso> bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20190112.html: b_jonas
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17:27:36 <Taneb> I'm messing around with Rust
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17:36:17 <b_jonas> I'm a programmer so I hate ignoring recommendations in manuals, but this IKEA chair doesn't make it easy to follow suggestions. The box has icons saying I shouldn't be using a blade to open it, but I don't see how else I should start to open them when it's taped down at the seams. The manual, like every IKEA manual, says
17:36:45 <b_jonas> that it's better to have two people together to assemble the furniture, rather than doing it on my own, but come on! It's just a chair, it's not a bed frame.
17:43:22 <b_jonas> I've read through the manual. Now I'm supposed to say something last-words worthy, like "Ok, this assembly procedure is pretty straightforward.".
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18:19:35 <b_jonas> So I'm supposed to say another last-words worthy sentence now.
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18:37:52 <imode> a queue automaton that can only dequeue and enqueue single symbols per state transition is not turing complete. i.e, if you're in a state, examine the symbol at the head of the queue. if it's what you think, dequeue it and enqueue another symbol.
18:38:55 <imode> b_jonas: try doing something like a -> bcd.
18:39:15 <imode> your queue needs a sufficient amount of "blank" symbols.
18:42:30 <salpynx> b_jonas: this is how my mind works: you ask about public key crypto then talk about IKEA manual algorithms; I search for an find https://kottke.org/18/04/ikea-style-instructions-for-programming-algorithms
18:44:37 <salpynx> I had a feeling IKEA manual algoritms had been done before, public key crytpo being the first example was just a coincidence I'll run with!
18:45:46 <b_jonas> that even shows a box that uses the RSA style keys where the public key and private key are dual
18:46:48 <imode> b_jonas: https://ptpb.pw/5veP/text for instance.
18:47:06 <imode> note, it _is_ TC if you split the enqueue and dequeue operations into different actions.
18:47:19 <imode> but "take a symbol, leave a symbol" queue automata aren't TC.
18:47:23 <imode> at least I don't think.
18:48:18 <imode> whoops, forgot the halt state.. https://ptpb.pw/0SvB/text
18:48:19 <b_jonas> imode: oh sure, because then the cyclic queue will never increase in size
18:48:56 <imode> you'll have to use up the space you're equipped with. you can either change the semantics of the queue or the semantics of the automaton.
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18:49:59 <imode> one way to change the semantics of the queue is to say that there always exists one blank space in the queue at a particular point, and you can never dequeue it (or rather, when you do, it's always equivalent to enqueueing the symbol you want + a blank space.)
18:50:53 <imode> so when you have something like S1 _ -> S2 b, it's really equivalent to saying S1 _ -> S2 b_ or something similar.
18:51:07 <salpynx> b_jonas: I think it shows what I was going to say that they are both 'keys', but one for locking and the other for UNlocking. The 'lock' is real
18:51:33 <b_jonas> apparently that links to https://idea-instructions.com/ which has more
18:52:55 <b_jonas> salpynx: sure, but that's not how I think of it. how I think of it is that you put the lock on the thing you want to lock and click it on, for which you don't need a key, you need an open lock which is private, then someone who has a public key can open the lock, but opening it destroys the lock completely, you can't close it again
18:53:07 <salpynx> Arh, silly network keeps failing on me... The lock is really the encrypted message, though no one calls it a lock
18:54:04 <Taneb> imode: the take a symbol leave a symbol queue is just a FSA
18:54:29 <Taneb> Or possibly LBA depending on how it's initialized
18:55:58 <imode> it's LBA. it can only use the amount of space that's available in the queue/circular buffer.
18:56:01 <imode> you can also reclaim space as well.
18:56:51 <imode> you can split the enqueueing of strings across multiple states that enqueue multiple symbols. but you can only use the space you're equipped with.
18:56:53 <Taneb> Whether it's FSA or LBA depends on whether the initial (and thereafter) size of the queue is specified in the description of the machine or the description of the input
18:57:24 <imode> I take the initial queue as the input.
18:58:57 <imode> the initial input needs to include some kind of "extra space" in this case, meaning prepended/appended with a number of blanks. of course you can get clever with your problem solving and morph/re-use parts of your input in-place that aren't blanks..
18:59:11 <salpynx> b_jonas: with that description of the click lock, I understand wher you are coming from better. I guess the locking is more involved than a simple click - it's a custom lock that requires a key to be turned do perform the lock
19:02:26 <b_jonas> https://idea-instructions.com/graph-scan/ is unrealistic. in IKEA manuals, when there are alternate ways to assemble something, the steps in them are labeled with disjoint intervals
19:03:06 <salpynx> imode: are you referring to a particular lang here? Last lang I see mentioned is Rust. I'm fairly certain you're not talking about Rust
19:03:37 <imode> nope, just a class of queue automata.
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19:17:27 <salpynx> b_jonas: the diagram is versioned with various fixes, it looks like they are open to bug reports and suggestions
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19:51:53 <rain1> https://www.jstor.org/stable/20488489?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents
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20:13:10 <salpynx> b_jonas: I've thought about your lock analogy further, how about this: a public key is just data, and should not be thought of as a mechanism like a lock. The mechanism part of the lock analogy is in the encryption algorithm. Public keys are distributed freely and no one cares about that. To actually lock something you need more than just a public key, and crypto algorithms are/have been import restricted as munitions because of th
20:13:32 <salpynx> b_jonas: Posessing a public key on its own gives no locking ability, it's just a dumb piece of metal with bumps. The algorithm contains the mechanism, and there are real-world examples that illustrate how that is considered a very different class.
20:18:58 <salpynx> I want to make a comparison between 'data and code', but of course code _is_ data. What is the terminology to distinguish that some data represent algorithms and other data represent ... not-algorithms. What's the word for that?
20:25:58 <imode> there isn't a distinction in my view because any piece of data can be swapped for something that generates that piece of data.
20:26:04 <imode> data is code, code is data.
20:27:44 <int-e> We need more Harvard architectures. :-P
20:29:28 <imode> matrioshka languages correspond to the harvard architecture. :P
20:29:39 <salpynx> yeah, I was looking for something that clearly defined the difference between "operators" and "numbers", which I felt I should already know, but quickly ended up on lamdba calculus and Church encoding, so 'no real distinction' seems to be the answer
20:30:14 <salpynx> ... but we tend to make a distinction, doesn't that have a term, even if it is a subjective thing?
20:33:16 <imode> in practice it seems to come by many names for many situations.
20:33:28 <imode> thue's split between its rule store and its initial input is the segmentation between code and data.
20:33:42 <imode> strict harvard architectures are split between their code and data stores.
20:34:21 <imode> turing machines... really any automata.
20:35:17 <b_jonas> salpynx: no no. the algorithm is the cupboard or safe or building that you lock something in. the lock on it is the "private key". normally you get in the building by opening the lock with the public key and then opening the door of the building, but if the building is badly designed, there might be other ways.
20:37:22 <b_jonas> a lock is just data too unless you know how to open it, like usually you do that by inserting the key and turning it, then either you remove the lock from the door or just turning the key pulls in some iron rods, and in either case now you can open the door
20:38:44 <b_jonas> the door and building, or the chain on the lock, or whatever big thing there is that you can move after the lock is open, is the symmetric cipher by the way, because locks can move only very few objects alone.
20:40:33 <imode> my take on the code/data split is that one exists and it's pretty fundamental. the lambda calculus, for example, allows you to specify data as code by special sequences of applications and their subsequent reductions. but you always need some kind of outside system to reduce these.
20:41:06 <imode> like, for any system, there needs to exist some kind of evaluator for that system, else it doesn't "do anything".
20:41:50 <imode> if you think of a system, I can think of an interpreter for that system. I can also think of an interpreter for that interpreter, so on and so forth into infinity.
20:42:30 <salpynx> Possessing a physical open click-lock without any keys allows someone to lock something, which is potentially useful, as opposed to possessing only a physical key, so locks have more _doing_ power than keys
20:45:32 <b_jonas> salpynx: yes, and that's what I expect from an assymetric encryption system: the private key alone lets me lock something, the public key alone doesn't let me do anything
20:45:53 <salpynx> imode: so it's the context set by the processing machine's architecture, whether it is Harvard / von Neumann, or arbitrary split, like humans who can chose (struggle?) to understand numbers in different ways
20:46:10 <b_jonas> that it doesn't happen to work that way with RSA is just an incident of implementation that we needn't rely on, and not all assymetric encryption systems need to be like that
20:48:15 <imode> salpynx: imho it's a lot deeper than that, because if you're dealing with a given machine, there can always be (and always has to be) some kind of outer shell that's interpreting the machine you're working with.
20:48:44 <imode> there's always a set of rules governing what a given machine does at any particular point, and those rules need to be evaluated.
20:49:10 <imode> turns out for our physical computers, those rules are, well, physics (or a certain subset of quantum electrodynamics depending on the manufacturing process.)
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20:49:30 <imode> so in my opinion, everything's harvard.
20:50:10 <imode> there's always a split between the code that does stuff, and the stuff it does stuff to.
20:54:03 <salpynx> Everything is Harvard? I thought you were going to argue for everything is von Neumann by getting down to physics. Everything that _is_ stuff, also happens to _do_ stuff
20:55:19 <imode> not in my view. there's always a split. turing kind of saw this, because there's a split between the state table storage for a given TM and the tape.
20:55:35 <imode> but you can simulate a von Neumann machine using that system.
20:55:36 <b_jonas> how about, in the levels close to the main RAM and peripherials, code and data are the same, but in the parts closer to the CPU core, they get split and treated totally differently?
20:58:35 <imode> there always has to be, in my view, a split between the rules that govern a system and the things that exist in that system.
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21:01:43 <salpynx> imode: "a split between the rules that govern a system and the things that exist in that system" yes, that sounds good to me, but what is the term for those distinctions applied to a specific system?
21:02:51 <salpynx> it's like fundamentally they are the same thing, but in the context of the system we want to focus on, they are classed differently
21:06:06 <imode> we could always invent one if it doesn't exist. nothing comes to mind.
21:07:09 <salpynx> b_jonas: I'm not sure about the safe / building analogy. The "safe" is just a box, like the building is a shell. A file is the data analogy here? Zip, rot13, and .txt are all 'buildings' or 'boxes', whereas some part of RSA is a lock, but not particularly the part that adds an <eof> marker or whatever to the end
21:07:31 <imode> the key is that there has to be some level of "data" that a particular system cannot access. in the context of a harvard architecture, that data is the instructions for the machine. same goes for turing machines: a TM cannot modify its state table.
21:11:18 <imode> the lambda calculus cannot modify the rules by which it is evaluated.
21:11:57 <imode> there's always a split between the rules that your state has to follow and the state itself.
21:13:02 <b_jonas> it's not just a box. it's box with a door, and with tricky holes on the door and the rest of the box where you can put the lock such that the door (ideally) can't be opened until you open the lock
21:14:44 <b_jonas> more importantly, the whole point of cryptography is that Eve shouldn't be able to open the box even if he does things with the lock that you don't expect or don't have in the protocol, which is why the lock is data, not just code
21:15:20 <b_jonas> if the lock was code, it would be much simpler, it could be code that checks for the correct key and open up if the key is right and not do anything else, in which case Eve would be out of luck if he doesn't have the kye
21:15:29 <salpynx> but the lock and the box are different things, you can have boxes without locks
21:16:28 <b_jonas> yes, because ultimately, the box is also data
21:16:53 <imode> and the dynamics of data is code.
21:16:55 <b_jonas> it's the protocol of properly opening and closing the door and manufacturing keys and locks that's code
21:18:44 <salpynx> that's what I was getting at with data representing algorithms. "dynamics of data" == algorithms?
21:24:09 <salpynx> imode: 'there has to be some level of "data" that a particular system cannot access' is interesting and seems true. It feels relevant to the nature of reality, and physical laws, and then we'll be getting into "shut up and calculate" territory soon. Made me think of 'emergent behaviour' and I looked up the term for those levels: Integrative level
21:24:58 <salpynx> not sure whether it is exactly the same, but seems at least related in some way
21:25:28 <salpynx> I'm going to go away and ponder. Good discussion, thanks!
21:31:27 <b_jonas> guess what topic David Madore tackles in his latest blog entry? it's another #esoteric favoruite
21:31:48 <b_jonas> not an esolang, but still something this channel talks about often
21:41:06 <b_jonas> Taneb: hmm, I wonder if he's ever mentioned that
21:41:11 <b_jonas> my guess is that he must have
21:41:33 <b_jonas> at least one clear mention
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22:23:50 <oren> Apparently my house is constructed in a ludicrously strudy manner
22:24:07 <oren> the floor joists are 4" by 12"
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00:12:44 <Phantom_Hoover> (i only watched the celestia one from last summer which was great)
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06:07:00 <imode> idea: a language who's only data type is a queue.
06:20:03 <zzo38> I did something similar once, where the only data type is a queue of references of queues.
06:39:40 <oerjan> hm what's FMS implying about previewing, did something go wrong when e introduced?
06:42:37 <imode> isn't the operation of a queue and a stack equivalent when you only have a single-symbol alphabet? they'd be reduced to counter machines, because enqueueing/dequeueing is just incrementing/decrementing, just as pushing and popping is..
06:43:20 <imode> that gives... some kind of reductionist priority to counter machines, then.
06:43:33 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Oerjan newbie test * New user account
06:52:44 <esowiki> [[User talk:FMS]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=59142 * Oerjan * (+388) What's the problem with previewing?
06:53:35 <oerjan> imode: well two counters or two stacks are enough for TC.
06:53:52 <oerjan> but one queue suffices with two symbols.
06:55:55 <imode> yeah. seems like there always needs to be two of something.
06:56:20 <imode> two queues are also enough to be TC.
06:56:58 <imode> so choose from a binary alphabet and a single queue, a unary alphabet and two queues/counters..
06:59:09 <oerjan> well one counter is enough if you have multiplication and division. see Fractran.
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07:00:59 <imode> right. but who considers multiplication and division fundamental? :P
07:12:40 <imode> is the pairing function or godel encoding really the only way to construct things in counter machines?
07:14:54 <oerjan> you can do stacks of a limited number of symbols as numbers in a base
07:15:23 <oerjan> you may consider that a kind of pairing function though
07:15:56 <imode> interesting. any literature about that?
07:16:25 <oerjan> i assume that's how the usual implementation of a turing machine in several counter works
07:17:25 <oerjan> well i've probably read that. in fact i vaguely recall wikipedia's article on counter machines has some proofs
07:17:58 <imode> ah yeah there's a proof sketch in the article, duh.
07:20:04 * imode wonders if there's a similar encoding for a single queue.
07:21:07 <oerjan> and the caveat section is relevant to your question whether there's another way (by showing at least _some_ ways don't work)
07:21:38 <oerjan> queues are probably easiest done as a pair of stacks
07:21:51 <oerjan> which means 3 counters, they can share the temporary
07:23:49 <imode> well a TM can be simulated by an FSM with a single queue, and a queue with a binary alphabet can be simulated by two queues using a unary alphabet (similar to a stack), so I wonder if there's a reduction of that to the 2CM without having to go through the encoding of four counters into two.
07:24:52 <oerjan> wait, how do you get a binary queue from two unary ones
07:27:15 <imode> a communicating finite state machine uses multiple queues, each of which is unary. the relevant literature shows an encoding of a turing machine as two communicating FSMs utilizing two unary queues.
07:28:46 <oerjan> i think i was right, the 4 counters in the article really just need to be 3.
07:29:13 <oerjan> it's getting down to 2 that requires gödel encoding.
07:30:44 <imode> something tells me that you don't require godel encoding if you use the encoding I mentioned, but I need to look at it more.
07:31:50 <oerjan> i haven't heard of that, i would be surprised if it wasn't similar
07:32:43 <oerjan> as in, my immediate hunch is to use the two queues as two counters, and go from there
07:33:20 <imode> http://www.lsv.fr/Projects/anr-dots/PUBLIS/GKM-fi07.pdf page 10.
07:34:06 <imode> was just skimming around and stumbled on that.
07:41:08 <oerjan> that doesn't look like each configuration is unary
07:54:14 <oerjan> well i don't see how that can work with unary, the queues have to contain an unbounded number of messages, each of which is from a non-unary alphabet
07:56:08 <oerjan> approximately the length of the turing tape needs to be in transit at any time, minus a finite number of symbols
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08:39:51 <b_jonas> `pbflist http://pbfcomics.com/comics/barkelangelo/
08:39:52 <HackEso> pbflist http://pbfcomics.com/comics/barkelangelo/: shachaf Sgeo quintopia ion b_jonas Cale
08:39:58 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59143&oldid=59129 * A * (-107) /* Example Programs */
08:40:38 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59144&oldid=59143 * A * (-159)
08:52:59 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59145&oldid=59144 * A * (+674)
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09:27:31 <oerjan> that's the castle's voice, i think
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11:31:03 <Taneb> I'm a little lost in Girl Genius, I'm going ot have to go back and reread like the past two years at some point
11:32:30 <Luciole> I should continue my re-read
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12:06:08 <wob_jonas> These magic things where you redundantly represent integers so that the digits have larger range than you need for the base, and then you can do additions with carries propagating only to a limited distance so you can do it in a constant depth circuit, they're totally magical. That it's possible goes against my intuition.
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13:03:54 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59148&oldid=59145 * A * (+714)
13:04:44 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59149&oldid=59148 * A * (+47)
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13:05:17 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59150&oldid=59149 * A * (+1)
13:05:41 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59151&oldid=59150 * A * (-1) /* Example Programs */
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16:54:50 <esowiki> [[BERT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59152&oldid=59138 * Areallycoolusername * (+40)
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17:16:41 <esowiki> [[LolKek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59153&oldid=59058 * Maxim228 * (+78)
17:17:58 <esowiki> [[LolKek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59154&oldid=59153 * Maxim228 * (-30)
17:21:00 <esowiki> [[LolKek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59155&oldid=59154 * Maxim228 * (+0)
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17:39:25 <imode> why are queues so damn attractive.
17:39:38 <imode> https://xkcd.com/853/
17:40:46 <imode> for real though what makes a circular one-way tape attractive.
17:46:56 <esowiki> [[User talk:FMS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59156&oldid=59142 * FMS * (+545) Answered rjan
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18:11:00 <esowiki> [[Nope.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59157&oldid=58920 * Areallycoolusername * (+28)
18:12:45 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Areallycoolusername * uploaded "[[File:Nope.png]]": The logo of the Nope. programming language.
18:13:07 <esowiki> [[Nope.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59159&oldid=59157 * Areallycoolusername * (+1)
18:13:45 <esowiki> [[Nope.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59160&oldid=59159 * Areallycoolusername * (+20)
18:18:47 <esowiki> [[Nope.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59161&oldid=59160 * Areallycoolusername * (+0)
18:24:40 <esowiki> [[Cactusi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59162&oldid=59085 * Areallycoolusername * (+8)
18:25:11 <esowiki> [[Cactusi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59163&oldid=59162 * Areallycoolusername * (-1)
18:25:24 <esowiki> [[Cactusi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59164&oldid=59163 * Areallycoolusername * (-7)
18:25:38 <esowiki> [[Cactusi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59165&oldid=59164 * Areallycoolusername * (-3)
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20:28:21 <esowiki> [[PixelCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59166&oldid=59147 * SealedKiller * (+18)
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21:30:05 <cats_> how do I delete my account on the esolangs wiki?
21:40:18 <rain1> cats_: no idea. hope that helps
21:40:48 <cats_> any admins that can get me some information on that?
21:43:39 <zzo38> What is your account on esolangs wiki?
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23:09:28 * EsolangCoder thinks: "I have a horrible username. But if nobody is here, nobody knows." *
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23:10:20 <zzo38> I am on. There is also logs.
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23:49:04 <oren> holy motherfucking shit this code has a TODO comment from the 1990's
23:49:10 <oren> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
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00:37:28 <zzo38> What code is that?
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04:29:41 <zzo38> Do you like my program GLUZMA?
04:29:56 <zzo38> If there is any bug in the program you can find, please report them.
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05:28:16 <esowiki> [[User talk:FMS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59167&oldid=59156 * Oerjan * (+478) Too bad
05:29:31 * oerjan plays the ball to fizzie, just in case
05:30:18 <zzo38> What kind of ball do you play?
05:32:32 <oerjan> to possibly fix the previous account FMS lost the password for because of a combination of errors
05:40:53 <esowiki> [[User:Cortex/sus++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59168&oldid=59141 * Cortex * (+1689)
05:48:32 <oerjan> hm someone else requesting deletion
05:49:06 <oerjan> i don't quite see the point when they've made only one edit...
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06:02:32 <oerjan> fungot: but you're here!
06:02:32 <fungot> oerjan: vimes stared at his fingers for a moment. then the hogfather leaned back. " you've got to know the dog wuffles, and a hiss of steam from the bowl on to a winner.'
06:03:13 <oerjan> . o O ( but _why_ does the dog wuffle? )
06:34:06 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59169&oldid=59151 * A * (+1105)
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07:32:57 * oerjan learns that iridium flares are ending
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09:46:35 <esowiki> [[QETAN]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=59170 * Cortex * (+2030) Created page with "'''QETAN''' (pronounced KAY-tan) is joke esolang created by [[User:Cortex|]]. It is designed to be completely nonsensical in all senses, but still possible to use. The name st..."
09:46:51 <esowiki> [[User:Cortex]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59171&oldid=59133 * Cortex * (+12)
09:47:54 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59172&oldid=59086 * Cortex * (+27)
09:58:09 <zzo38> Zork I contains the instruction "SET 1,VAR(1)" at address 38255. What is the purpose of this? I guess possibly Zilch failed to optimize something (I don't know if ZILF will optimize it out).
10:05:52 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59173&oldid=59169 * A * (-1)
10:06:26 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59174&oldid=59173 * A * (+34) /* Syntax */
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10:14:30 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59175&oldid=59174 * A * (+105)
10:20:39 <esowiki> [[Printscript 5]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=59176 * A * (+1556) Created page with "Note: [[Printscript]] has too much information, so this page is created. ==New Syntax== Printscript Version 5 supports comments(both one-line and multi-line). One line commen..."
10:22:46 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59177&oldid=59175 * A * (+16)
10:24:10 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59178&oldid=59177 * A * (+91)
10:26:48 <esowiki> [[Printscript 5]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59179&oldid=59176 * A * (+0)
10:33:35 <esowiki> [[Printscript 5]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59180&oldid=59179 * A * (+1282)
10:34:27 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59181&oldid=59178 * A * (+47)
10:36:28 <esowiki> [[Printscript 5]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59182&oldid=59180 * A * (+18)
10:36:40 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59183&oldid=59181 * A * (+18)
10:39:02 <esowiki> [[Printscript 5]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59184&oldid=59182 * A * (+1) /* See also */
10:41:42 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59185&oldid=59183 * A * (+44)
10:43:50 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59186&oldid=59185 * A * (+51)
10:45:30 <esowiki> [[Printscript 5]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59187&oldid=59184 * A * (+49) Fix the comments.
10:46:28 <esowiki> [[Printscript 5]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59188&oldid=59187 * A * (+4)
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11:29:57 <esowiki> [[Printscript 5]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59189&oldid=59188 * A * (+1960)
11:32:49 <esowiki> [[Printscript 5]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59190&oldid=59189 * A * (+41)
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11:52:55 <esowiki> [[Printscript 5]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59191&oldid=59190 * A * (+2528)
11:54:08 <esowiki> [[Printscript 5]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59192&oldid=59191 * A * (+33)
11:58:55 <esowiki> [[Printscript 5]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59193&oldid=59192 * A * (+18) /* See also */
12:12:48 <esowiki> [[Printscript 9]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=59194 * A * (+168) Created page with "Again, there is too much information in [[Printscript 5]]. ==New Syntax== ==Implementation== Version 9 [[Category:Languages]] [[Category:Implemented]] [[Category:2019]]"
12:13:29 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59195&oldid=59186 * A * (+13)
12:13:44 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59196&oldid=59195 * A * (-51)
12:25:11 <esowiki> [[Printscript 9]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59197&oldid=59194 * A * (+2774)
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12:38:21 <esowiki> [[Printscript 9]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59198&oldid=59197 * A * (+29)
12:39:08 <esowiki> [[Printscript 9]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59199&oldid=59198 * A * (-20)
12:39:20 <myname> "new in version 9: comments"
12:39:35 <myname> it lacks arithmetical operations, though
12:39:37 <esowiki> [[Printscript 9]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59200&oldid=59199 * A * (+0)
12:39:47 <esowiki> [[Printscript 9]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59201&oldid=59200 * A * (-6)
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18:57:26 <esowiki> [[Quite]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=59202 * Areallycoolusername * (+69) Created page with "A language made by [[User: Areallycoolusername|Areallycoolusername]]."
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19:16:52 <imode> hamming graphs could prove really useful in HPC. the general schema of a hamming graph really lends itself well to "scaling up and down".
19:19:05 <imode> a complete graph of complete graphs!
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19:37:18 <rain1> I will read up on hamming graphs
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21:00:10 <fungot> b_jonas: wonse jumped, scrabbled at the pile. it sneered. ' heroic eunuchs?'
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21:34:50 <j-bot> Luciole: thanks b_jonas
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21:55:36 <esowiki> [[Talk:Introduction to esolang design]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=59203 * Salpynx * (+545) Bump
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22:06:07 <HackEso> Dragons are fractal creatures of magic, capable of shrinking or expanding to any size. Taneb invented them to live inside his string diagrams, but they prefer to hover around pinheads and feed on angels.
22:06:39 <b_jonas> my hon. and learned friend fungot, in your opinion, how should we deal with dragons?
22:06:39 <fungot> b_jonas: brutha removed his hand. it was long and low, like a gasp. then she woke up shivering. it was not required.'
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22:10:17 <salpynx> Inspired by some recent edits and conversations I thought I'd bump that Intro to esolang design page. No prominent page on the wiki really gives any guidelines about what makes a good esolang
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22:11:18 <b_jonas> salpynx: yeah, it's hard to give such advice, because a good esolang has to be really different from the previous ones
22:11:50 <salpynx> I consider myself pretty new at this sort of thing, and its fun to learn and experiment, so it'd be good if there were more resources to help.
22:12:32 <salpynx> I think I at least tried to do some of my learning in private :D
22:13:55 <b_jonas> you mean as opposed to spamming the wiki with nonsense pages? that's certainly commendable
22:19:14 <salpynx> yeah, and it's making me want to hold off making some frivolous changes that might be interpreted as encouragement.
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22:41:53 <salpynx> A page that covered some basic comp sci terminology and made a distinction about the areas that can be made esoteric -- symbols used, code structure, flow control, computational mechanisms, data representation etc, and how being esoteric in one does not mean you are being interesting in any other way.
22:44:46 <salpynx> also, how punctuation symbols alone != esoteric, and neither necessarily does being awkward with Unicode (which I enjoy, and have been playing with, but am getting to the end of what I think I need to do with that).
22:51:11 <b_jonas> any part can be made esoteric
22:51:37 <b_jonas> even parts we've never thought of yet
22:51:52 <b_jonas> or the parts we have thought can be made esoteric in new ways
22:58:19 <HackEso> monads//Monads are just free monad monad monad algebras.
22:58:21 <HackEso> relrod//A relrod is a machine useful for finding the Force.
22:58:22 <HackEso> The password of the month is "overreachtorridbittenmandible".
23:01:16 <esowiki> [[Polyglot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59204&oldid=54818 * B jonas * (-5)
23:01:17 <salpynx> b_jonas: providing a starting map would help some good intentioned people go further, quicker
23:04:05 <salpynx> There are some good blog posts with interviews with some people one here I believe? Can't remember how I found those, but that'd be good reading to link to
23:04:50 <esowiki> [[Timeline of esoteric programming languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59205&oldid=56051 * B jonas * (+86)
23:05:25 <b_jonas> salpynx: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Ais523 links to one, but there are more interviews with him
23:06:50 <salpynx> That's probably where I found them, via user pages
23:07:22 <b_jonas> ais523: why can't I reach http://c.intercal.org.uk/ ?
23:13:44 <HackEso> measure theory? ¯\(°_o)/¯
23:13:54 <HackEso> category theroy? ¯\(°_o)/¯
23:14:11 <HackEso> In the theory of categories, category theory is a theory in the category of theories.
23:14:47 <HackEso> halting problem? ¯\(°_o)/¯
23:17:32 <HackEso> Unicode is a mess invented in 1988 by Xerox, Microsoft, the Spanish Inquisition, and the evil Human Supremacy Corporation, in order to make it easier for the government to spy on Chinese people.
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23:38:26 <esowiki> [[1.1]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=59206 * B jonas * (+1967) Created page with "'''1.1''' is a Turing-complete esoteric programming language based on string replacement in a string data buffer, arbitrary control flow among states, but without self-modifyi..."
23:38:43 <esowiki> [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59207&oldid=58759 * B jonas * (-218)
23:39:27 <esowiki> [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59208&oldid=59207 * B jonas * (+0)
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23:47:30 <salpynx> Maths question, because I think mathematicians lurk here: Taking the Lebesgue measure as an example of a valid "measure on a set", is there a measure X() that returns the abs value of the greatest element of a set, and that will work on sets of size 1 (dimensionality 0) e.g. X({5,1})=5, X({5}) = 5, -- is that a valid measure, or does it fail some criteria?
23:47:39 <salpynx> If I understand it correctly, the Lebesgue measure would give λ*({5,1}) = 4, λ*({5,0}) = 5, but λ*({5}) = 0
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23:52:29 <b_jonas> salpynx: no, it's not a measure according to the usual definition of a measure; yes it fails some criteria; and I don't think you understand that correctly
23:53:01 <salpynx> it X() fails being a measure, _and_ I don't understand <sigh>
23:53:51 <salpynx> what did I get wrong about Lebesgue?
23:55:17 <b_jonas> maybe I just don't understand what you're trying to say about the Lebesgue thing. what are the * stars supposed to mean?
23:55:26 <salpynx> I suspected there was a problem with calling something that gave an answer like X({5}) = 5 would fail being a measure, but I couldn't find examples to figure out why.
23:56:45 <b_jonas> X({5}) = 5 alone isn't a problem
23:56:59 <b_jonas> you said more about X though if I understand right
23:57:01 <salpynx> yeah, the stars are probably wrong. I think I meant simply λ({5,1}) = 4, λ({5,0}) = 5, but λ({5}) where <lambda> is meant to represent a 'standard' Lebesgue measure, i.e the generalised length / area / volume thing
23:59:28 <salpynx> I do want to know / understand why X({5}) is or isn't a valid "measure" according to measure theory, because I was trying to use it to define a "measure space"
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00:06:46 <esowiki> [[Quite]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59209&oldid=59202 * Areallycoolusername * (+838)
00:09:15 <oerjan> hey come back i can answer that
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00:10:21 <salpynx> The 'abs value' part is probably unnecessary too. I'm looking for a measure that most usefully (to me) gives X({5}) = 5, I imagine would give X({4, 1}) = 4 (just to be clear the answer isn't always 5!), but I could probably use a different result if required. For 'esoteric' design reasons, I'd really like it to be a measure, but am reasonale enough to not argue with reality. Also, I am probably a bit over my head with the notation
00:10:24 <oerjan> salpynx: your measure fails the criterion that the measure of a disjoint union should be the sum of the measures
00:10:34 <oerjan> (finite or countable union)
00:13:42 <oerjan> for a measure where single point sets are measurable, the value of those determine the whole measure in the obvious way
00:14:51 <salpynx> oerjan: thanks! I'll digest that a bit, but I think I get it. I was suspecting something was wrong with it, but wasn't sure exactly where
00:15:29 <oerjan> _unless_ some uncountable set of one-point sets all have measure 0.
00:15:52 <oerjan> but you seem to be looking at integers so uncountability doesn't come up
00:16:51 <oerjan> (although the lebesgue measure involves those essentially)
00:18:48 <salpynx> yes, limiting to integers. Does that mean there is literally no useful measure on a 1-point set that could convert it into an integer? (I think) I understand why it is always 0 in the Lebesgue case, and that the Counting measure would give 1, in every case
00:19:15 <salpynx> sorry, an integer based on the content of the set
00:19:23 <oerjan> i mean integers as the _elements_ of the set
00:19:27 <salpynx> differing between different sets of size=1
00:20:11 <oerjan> you can have such measures, for example you can have a measure that's abs(n) for each integer n.
00:20:13 <salpynx> oh, yes, integers are the contents of the set... ah, right, that's probably an unreasonable requirement
00:20:37 <oerjan> it's just that it will be a sum for larger sets
00:21:20 <salpynx> nice thanks, that was an early plan b
00:21:47 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59210&oldid=59146 * Areallycoolusername * (+25) /* Q */
00:22:32 <oerjan> hm in fact you can have that for non-integers too, it's just that all infinite sets get infinite measure.
00:22:50 <oerjan> but lebesgue measure also has infinite measure sets
00:23:31 <oerjan> convergent series also work, like {1/n^2 | n integer }
00:24:24 <oerjan> i'm not sure if i'm doing something wrong here
00:25:59 <salpynx> oerjan: you'll be horrified to know that the reason I'm think about this stuff is because of that Cactuși language page, and an idea I had to "improve" it by incorporating the work of Romanian mathematicians, the Ionescu Tulceas... now I am just trying to expand my understanding of the maths, which is probably beneficial
00:27:58 <salpynx> extended reals are ok, +∞ for measures?
00:28:29 <oerjan> yes otherwise the lebesgue measure wouldn't work
00:28:55 <oerjan> don't try to combine that with negative measures though, then it usually goes haywire
00:30:04 <oerjan> . o O ( try Voiculescu hth )
00:30:27 * oerjan prepares to watch salpynx run away screaming
00:34:40 <salpynx> oh dear, I probably am going to have to check some of that out. I'm in way over my head already with the Lifting Theory stuff I was (trying to) read by the Ionescu Tulceas, they worked on ergodic theory too, which _might_ be related to some of his stuff, I see a paper Free Entropy in his bio?
00:35:27 <salpynx> If I do anything with this I'll have to say 'inspired by' rather than 'making use of' to cover any failures of understanding on my part
00:36:10 <oerjan> looking at it, Ionescu-Tulcea are probably pretty hairy too
00:37:10 <oerjan> salpynx: i'm just mentioning Voiculescu because he's the one romanian mathematician i remember citing when i did my PhD
00:37:43 <oerjan> probably cannot remember most of the stuff today
00:37:56 <salpynx> oh yeah, the joke for this planned language / extension is that I don't really know what I'm doing by cramming all this maths in for no sensible reason :)
00:38:37 <oerjan> should be perfect then
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00:54:45 <salpynx> basic idea is that simple data type is sets, used to construct measure spaces, and sets are measured... I want lifting to be in there somehow, but I don't have a fully appropriate use for that (and probably am misinterpreting it). Graphs are kinda in there, but don't really add anything. Category theory seems potentially relevant.
00:57:49 <salpynx> my goal is to either create something that works to some extent, with an implemented interpreter, and be at least slightly true to the maths, otherwise it's a failed project
01:02:02 <salpynx> thanks oerjan and b_jonas for helping me improve my understanding of measures!
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05:27:45 <esowiki> [[Printscript 9]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59211&oldid=59201 * A * (+2501)
05:28:27 <esowiki> [[Printscript 9]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59212&oldid=59211 * A * (+31)
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05:59:20 <esowiki> [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59213&oldid=57342 * A * (+278)
05:59:57 <esowiki> [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59214&oldid=59213 * A * (+50)
06:00:41 <esowiki> [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59215&oldid=59214 * A * (-191)
06:02:41 <esowiki> [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59216&oldid=59215 * A * (+36)
06:03:16 <esowiki> [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59217&oldid=59216 * A * (+73)
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06:27:43 <esowiki> [[Printscript 9]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59218&oldid=59212 * A * (+147)
06:31:00 <esowiki> [[Printscript 9]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59219&oldid=59218 * A * (+4)
06:31:35 <esowiki> [[Printscript 9]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59220&oldid=59219 * A * (+2617)
06:45:01 <esowiki> [[Printscript 9]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59221&oldid=59220 * A * (+499)
06:49:00 <esowiki> [[Printscript 9]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59222&oldid=59221 * A * (+3357)
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08:00:06 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Featured languages/Recent]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59223&oldid=37400 * Oerjan * (+4) Step #1
08:00:16 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Featured languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59224&oldid=59044 * Oerjan * (+898) /* Archive */ Step #2
08:00:23 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Featured languages/Current]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59225&oldid=37398 * Oerjan * (-3) Step #3
08:00:35 <esowiki> [[Funciton]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59226&oldid=58931 * Oerjan * (+18) Step #4
08:00:41 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59227&oldid=58383 * Oerjan * (-100) /* List of candidates */ Step #5
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08:02:44 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59228&oldid=59196 * A * (-13)
08:03:02 <esowiki> [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59229&oldid=59217 * A * (-13)
08:42:28 <myname> uh, is funciton now featured?
09:22:18 <esowiki> [[Eternity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59230&oldid=52456 * Jabutosama * (+153) made the site finally readable and robust. Added mild irony to the summary section. Yes, i am this unfunny, I know.
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09:28:24 <esowiki> [[User:Jabutosama]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59231&oldid=58083 * Jabutosama * (+524) remade it all
09:28:34 <esowiki> [[User:Jabutosama]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59232&oldid=59231 * Jabutosama * (-6) /* "I think I am ok.... But who knows? What if I were not? Could i see a difference? Hm? Just keep living oi." */
09:28:43 <esowiki> [[User:Jabutosama]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59233&oldid=59232 * Jabutosama * (-2) /* "I think I am ok.... But who knows? What if I were not? Could i see a difference? Hm? Just keep living oi." */
09:29:57 <esowiki> [[User:Jabutosama]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59234&oldid=59233 * Jabutosama * (+37)
09:43:20 <esowiki> [[Printscript 9]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59235&oldid=59222 * A * (+19)
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09:48:21 <oerjan> myname: there was a brief breakdown in my procrastination. service should recommence shortly.
09:49:34 <esowiki> [[Printscript 13]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=59236 * A * (+3983) Created page with "Version 13 modifies the arithematic functions to make it support variable modifying. The original functions are modified as variable modifying: <pre> set a ! set b ! add a b..."
09:49:51 <esowiki> [[Printscript 13]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59237&oldid=59236 * A * (+13) /* Implementation */
09:51:20 <myname> i want to procrastinate more, but sadly enough, i have a job
09:57:14 <Luciole> I'm good at procrastinating a bit even whilst at work
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10:11:17 <esowiki> [[Printscript 13]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59238&oldid=59237 * A * (+4411)
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10:27:45 <esowiki> [[Printscript 13]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59239&oldid=59238 * A * (+5400)
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10:48:16 <esowiki> [[Printscript 13]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59240&oldid=59239 * A * (-170)
10:56:32 <esowiki> [[Printscript 13]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59241&oldid=59240 * A * (-43)
10:59:55 <myname> the hell is with this A guy
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11:04:01 <wob_jonas> `bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20190115.html
11:04:03 <HackEso> bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20190115.html: b_jonas
11:04:23 <wob_jonas> myname: A has like five aliases on the wiki
11:04:40 <myname> are all of those as horrible as this?
11:08:00 <myname> like, it just looks like he is reinventing assembler last time i checked
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11:24:31 <esowiki> [[Printscript 13]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59242&oldid=59241 * A * (+5396)
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12:43:57 <esowiki> [[Works in progress]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59243&oldid=58968 * A * (+82)
12:44:32 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59244&oldid=59228 * A * (+37) /* See Also */
12:45:11 <esowiki> [[Printscript 13]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59245&oldid=59242 * A * (+65)
12:46:07 <esowiki> [[Printscript 13]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59246&oldid=59245 * A * (+59)
12:47:28 <esowiki> [[Works in progress]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59247&oldid=59243 * A * (+1) bad grammar
12:48:18 <esowiki> [[Works in progress]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59248&oldid=59247 * A * (+3)
12:49:40 <esowiki> [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59249&oldid=59229 * A * (+106)
12:55:29 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59250&oldid=59082 * A * (+150) Another idea
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14:53:07 <esowiki> [[User:Arseniiv/Subsandbox]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=59251 * Arseniiv * (+109) I hope it will go as expected
14:53:36 <arseniiv> okay so subpages are allowed here
14:54:57 <esowiki> [[User:Arseniiv]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59252&oldid=57423 * Arseniiv * (+30) Subsandbox link for it to not be an orphan
15:00:34 <esowiki> [[Talk:Printscript]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=59253 * Arseniiv * (+509) /* Created because this page has too much information. */ new section
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17:06:44 <lambdabot> LPPT 161700Z VRB02KT 3500 BR FEW010 BKN034 11/11 Q1018
17:07:18 <int-e> (unpleasantly humid)
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18:23:53 <esowiki> [[HuffPuff]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=59254 * Areallycoolusername * (+553) Created page with "A language made by [[User: Areallycoolusername|Areallycoolusername]]. It's a [[Brainfuck]] derivative, and the only valid command "HUFFLEPUFF", and "HUFFLEPUFFLET". {| class..."
18:24:12 <esowiki> [[HuffPuff]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59255&oldid=59254 * Areallycoolusername * (-2)
18:25:15 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59256&oldid=59172 * Areallycoolusername * (+28) /* Brainfuck derivatives */
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20:52:50 <esowiki> [[User:Cortex/sus++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59257&oldid=59168 * Cortex * (-3902) Replaced content with "lol nvm"
20:53:14 <esowiki> [[$ $]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59258&oldid=59139 * Cortex * (+11)
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21:25:17 <oren> is there any concievable difference between (float) and static_cast<float> at runtime?
21:26:51 <shachaf> Isn't it odd that C calls both float->int and float *-> int * conversion the same thing?
21:27:18 <b_jonas> but static_cast<float> is more restricted, can be applied to fewer types
21:28:05 <b_jonas> shachaf: don't question the basic principles that our prophets K&R have layed down. it's not odd.
21:28:40 <b_jonas> oren: not by much probably though
21:28:47 <b_jonas> they're more or less the same
21:28:57 <b_jonas> I'm not entirely sure, sadly
21:29:29 <b_jonas> there was some strange thing with user-defined types that can give very unintuitive results for casts when classes have a strange interface
21:29:39 <arseniiv> (completely unrelated: do I remember right K&R also had defined B, or was it a more collective work?)
21:30:02 <arseniiv> (I suddenly wondered what if we had B++)
21:30:02 <b_jonas> but I think that only results in casts being surprisingly a compile error or surprisingly not a compile error
21:30:28 <b_jonas> I think when static_cast, const_cast, or reinterpret_cast is valid, then they do the same as a C-style cast
21:31:08 <b_jonas> maybe there was something when the C-style cast was different because it called a ... I dunno really
21:31:30 <b_jonas> oren: sorry, the casts are so complicated and ugly that I really don't understand them in the general case
21:31:46 <b_jonas> you'll probably have to ask ##C++, they know the rules better
21:32:02 <oren> well luckily I only needed the anwer in the particular case of float and int and such
21:32:20 <b_jonas> I can write casts to do what I want, but I can't predict what they do when they're ones I wouldn't write
21:32:32 <oren> in order to ensure I am not losing my mind
21:32:43 <b_jonas> oren: oh, between built-in numeric types, static cast and C style cast should be the same
21:33:17 <b_jonas> except perhaps for C complexes, which the C++ rules don't acknowledge, so the behavior of static_cast isn't really defined for htem
21:34:03 <b_jonas> oren: note though that casting a float to an int can invoke undefined behavior when there's an overflow, so a compiler _could_ give different undefined behavior for a C style cast vs a static_cast in theory
21:34:07 <b_jonas> it's unlikely that they would
21:34:07 <arseniiv> . o O ( casts are like typeclass instances at their worst but are even more obscure )
21:34:36 <b_jonas> if you need to avoid the undefined behavior, you'll have to call library functions instead of casting
21:35:10 <b_jonas> because of that undefined behavior, in practice it's not easy to use float to integer cast correctly
21:35:20 <b_jonas> you can only really do it after some comparisons to check the range of the input
21:36:17 <oren> arseniiv: yeah in the instances it's either int to float or double to float (template function)
21:36:36 <oren> or float to float
21:36:37 <b_jonas> arseniiv: oh, that's better, yes
21:36:54 <oren> it's a template fucntion from class T to float
21:37:02 <arseniiv> (float to float cast is my favorite!!)
21:37:36 <b_jonas> except that C++ doesn't know about C complex floats, so I don't know if you can static_cast a C complex to a real
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22:59:19 <b_jonas> does every ebay electronic seller now inclue a totally unrelated cheap item as a supposed color variant or size variant into their sold item listing to cause ebay to display a lower price?
23:15:28 <esowiki> [[11CORTLANG]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=59259 * Cortex * (+1041) Created page with "'''11CORTLANG''' (the 11th language by [[User:Cortex|]]) is a stack-based language made by [[User:Cortex|]] using only the characters 0, 1, space, and newline. == Syntax and..."
23:15:43 <esowiki> [[User:Cortex]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59260&oldid=59171 * Cortex * (+17)
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00:09:38 <arseniiv> I made a file jupyter.bat and pasted "jupyter notebook --no-browser" there, then run and wasn’t able to comprehend why it loops endlessly and doesn’t lanuch jupyter ∗stupid∗
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05:03:26 <HackEso> 1/2:boring//Boring means of little interest, unless it is done to pigs. \ blu-ray//Blu-ray is the favorite storage format of Hooloovoos. \ å//Å _is_ a village in Norway, unless you're the BBC and don't understand things on top of letters. \ long winded//"long winded" is an adjectival phrase used for the description of something that has been long in the wind and has been slowly sculpted into a more flowing shape, thereby allowing wind to pass it
05:03:28 <HackEso> 2/2:with a significantly smaller amount of resistance. \ ^//^ (also notated by ⊕ or ⊻) is the exclusive-or operator; ∧ (also notated by /\ or &) is the and (conjunction) operator; ^ (also notated by ↑ or ** or ⋆) is the power operator.
05:03:46 <shachaf> I have a Blu-ray disc but no Blu-ray drive.
05:18:08 <pikhq> shachaf: Acquire one with currency?
05:18:49 <pikhq> Or if it's just a video you want to watch: do you happen to have a game console that uses Blu-ray discs as a storage medium?
05:24:04 <shachaf> I just have this one disc. Seems excessive to get a drive for it.
05:24:18 <shachaf> I don't have a game console. If I had one I'd use it of course.
05:38:07 <orin> shachaf:find out if local net cafe has a compy with a blu ray drive
06:01:09 <shachaf> I ordered the disc all the way from Germany!
06:15:12 <oerjan> @tell arseniiv Technically subpages are not allowed in the main namespace of esolang, although you can name pages with / in them
06:17:06 <esowiki> [[Works in progress]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59261&oldid=59248 * Oerjan * (-86) Revert; I don't see where it says this is collaborative
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09:10:39 <esowiki> [[Interdemento]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=59262 * Jabutosama * (+1658) created the page.
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13:09:16 <lambdabot> LPPT 171300Z 01014KT 9999 SCT034 13/05 Q1020
13:18:20 <int-e> 13/05 is *soo* much nicer than 11/11
13:19:03 <lambdabot> ESSB 171250Z 33011KT 300V360 9999 BKN016 M01/M04 Q0988 R12/690295
13:22:14 <lambdabot> LSZH 171250Z 25012KT 9999 -SHRA FEW020 SCT040 BKN060 06/02 Q1009 TEMPO SHRA
13:24:41 <lambdabot> LHBP 171300Z 24009KT CAVOK 11/04 Q1010 NOSIG
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13:26:15 <wob_jonas> most of Europe really, plus isreal
13:27:04 <Luciole> E is apparently iceland, ireland, UK, scandinavia, baltics, germany, poland
13:27:20 <Luciole> judging by the map on Wikipedia anyway
13:27:46 <wob_jonas> Germany and assorted minor areas in Europe
13:30:30 <fizzie> Switzerland doesn't feel "southern" to me.
13:32:58 <lambdabot> EGSC 171320Z 32014KT 9999 FEW030 05/M04 Q1012
13:33:20 <Taneb> I do love living in the same city as an international airport with precisely zero scheduled flights
13:37:13 <wob_jonas> Taneb: is it one of those that count as "international" because you can technically reach Canada from it?
13:46:59 <Taneb> wob_jonas: I don't know. It used to do flights to Gothenburg
13:54:56 <lambdabot> LOWI 171320Z 27008KT 9999 FEW065 05/M02 Q1007 WS R26 NOSIG
13:55:14 <lambdabot> EDDM 171350Z 25018KT 9999 -RA FEW032 SCT045 06/02 Q1006 NOSIG
13:55:45 <int-e> Oh that'll be slightly warmer than expected. I'll take it.
13:57:24 <HackEso> metar is a service Taneb invented that allows nerds to talk about the weather.
14:00:07 <Luciole> fizzie: fine, "not northern" europe then :P
14:01:08 <fizzie> I like how the UK keyboard layout has a dedicated ¬ key.
14:04:35 <int-e> anyway, I'm flying from LPPT (LIS) to EDDM (MUC) in a short while; LOWI (INN) is within walking distance from my home.
14:06:08 <Luciole> Lisabon, Munich, Innsbruck?
14:06:56 <fizzie> (I'm visiting our Zurich office this week, that's why I looked up LSZH.)
14:07:48 <fizzie> BA's subsidiary ("BA CityFlyer") had cheaper flights from London City to Zurich than BA had from Heathrow, which surprised me a little.
14:08:00 <int-e> hmm, this is weak: https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/keyboard-shortcuts#w_customize-or-disable-keyboard-shortcuts ... why do I need an add-on to customize keyboard shortcuts?
14:08:04 <fizzie> I've always sort of assumed LCY is for overpaid businessmen only.
14:09:03 <int-e> plane ticket prices are a deep mystery
14:09:20 <int-e> probably requires machine learning to understand the machine learning used on the other side :P
14:09:24 <fizzie> int-e: You also need an add-on to reorder your email accounts in Thunderbird's account list -- https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/1086682
14:09:50 <fizzie> (Well, or you can remove the accounts and then re-add them in the correct order, I guess.)
14:09:53 <wob_jonas> if you're visiting it this week, you should look up a longer term forecast, not a metar
14:10:13 <int-e> wob_jonas: I live there :P
14:10:34 <wob_jonas> I look up forecasts for where I live all the time
14:10:45 <int-e> so I'm not interested in the weather more than a couple of hours ahead :P
14:10:47 <Luciole> I've flown {to,via} Brussels a few times from BMA now--it's mostly for inter-scandinavia flights, and is really nice due to being tiny
14:11:00 <wob_jonas> typically https://www.met.hu/idojaras/elorejelzes/valoszinusegi/ and https://www.met.hu/idojaras/veszelyjelzes/
14:11:33 <int-e> don't worry, I do look at weather forecasts :P
14:11:34 <wob_jonas> int-e: oh. I'm interested in weather for at least the next 16 hours in any morning, to know what clothing to take
14:11:58 <rain1> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3-partition_problem
14:12:58 <wob_jonas> incidentally, that says they get their forecasts from ECMWF, who offer data to researchers after registration. I was wondering if we should make an #esoteric bot for accessing their forecast data, for research purposes
14:14:08 <wob_jonas> or maybe I could try to get data directly from met.hu
14:14:19 <wob_jonas> but it's tricky, there's a lot of data they only show as fancy rendered png images
14:19:27 <fizzie> FMI (Finnish Meteorological Institute) had an open data project, I think most of their stuff (including the main forecasts) is available in machine-readable form, which is nice.
14:20:31 <wob_jonas> these HTMLs are mostly machine-readable, only you may have to load a lot of smally ones to get all the data, it's geared for users who specifically want only the data or forecast for certain regions
15:31:13 <esowiki> [[Alchemist]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59263&oldid=59061 * BMO * (+261)
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15:57:21 <wob_jonas> my hon. and learned friend fungot, is this the house of bassa Selim?
15:57:21 <fungot> wob_jonas: " aargh!" ' said rincewind.
15:58:57 <fizzie> fungot: Your use of punctuation is suspect.
15:58:58 <fungot> fizzie: he raised his sword as the fnord palace.) has sold the fnord to try that on us. they think it's cool.'
15:59:13 <wob_jonas> fizzie: yeah, typical fungot quotation marks
15:59:13 <fungot> wob_jonas: ' why's the box so important?' said
16:01:44 <wob_jonas> ``` grep -REli scal wisdom # it's strange that there's no match to this
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18:02:20 <esowiki> [[C-INTERCAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59264&oldid=31852 * B jonas * (+124)
18:04:55 <b_jonas> my hon. and learned friend fungot, is this the house of Pasa Selim?
18:04:55 <fungot> b_jonas: ' i've got this dear,' said cohen. ' truckle, you push fnord' at a dog an' sayin' that's not a problem in agnes's case, at least,
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18:19:38 <int-e> oh luggage where art thou?
18:20:54 <int-e> oh the conveyor started. progress.
18:21:30 <b_jonas> my hon. and learned friend fungot, I was asking, have I arrived to the house of Pasa Selim?
18:21:30 <fungot> b_jonas: " yeah. weird." ' you summoned death to ask that kind of stuff,' said
18:22:58 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld* enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
18:23:04 <b_jonas> that's what it looks like, sure
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18:35:51 <b_jonas> fungot you old fool, is this the house of the hon. and learned Pasa Selim?
18:35:51 <fungot> b_jonas: vimes looked at the open doorway... and vanished.
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19:18:28 <HackEso> A morphism is just a natural transformation between two diagrams of shape 1.
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19:48:20 <arseniiv> . o O ( any sufficiently advanced loudness war is indistinguishable from clipping )
19:50:23 <arseniiv> what does fungot fungot style entail?
19:50:23 <fungot> arseniiv: ' what was a corpse doing in his wardrobe rather than take a tutorial. already the rocks were warm to the touch. " get some rest," said the patrician.
19:51:36 <arseniiv> at least it’s supersymmetric at it
19:52:03 <fungot> Selected style: fungot (What I've said myself)
19:52:25 <arseniiv> oh it should be fun and statistically unstable!
19:52:35 <arseniiv> fungot what did you said yourself?
19:52:36 <fungot> arseniiv: i use slatex tex2page, and then to beslubber our garments with it, it had some obvious deficiences ( such as `,3 sub by 47, 48, 49, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 100, 121, 144, 169, 196, 225, 256, 512, 1024, 2048, ...out of time!
19:53:05 <fungot> arseniiv:. i'm so kind, even to assholes! anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov
19:53:33 <arseniiv> fungot: not that cryptic, I’d say
19:53:33 <fungot> arseniiv: ( that is, levinson went to kish, disappeared, had on your behalf of the commission is not allowed to use the crane, enter any two of these letters, a b y.
19:54:13 <arseniiv> I probably should activate another style, it was too early
19:55:00 <fungot> Selected style: lovecraft (H. P. Lovecraft's writings)
19:58:40 <arseniiv> @tell oerjan ah that explains what I’ve seen yesterday about one of the pages; should I correct something in the discussion, then?
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21:22:23 <salpynx> I'm here to see what fungot's current mode does...
21:22:23 <fungot> salpynx: so betty, my miss, hideous aura that stretched from a dubious birth to a cloud of mystery as any he ever evoked from his nightmare fancy. bierce was a fnord man's face on top of it, though the wind was soft and light, and would not rise till the small hours beyond midnight, all the rotting ancient books and parts of the
21:23:58 <salpynx> ok, that's good. Illuminatus fnords are still there though, what's that about, fungot?
21:23:58 <fungot> salpynx: " but the whisperer never continued. the interruption was not produced by my fright, nor by the rapidly increasing storm amidst whose fury i was presently to open my eyes on a smoky solitude of blackened ruins. it was from the artists and poets that the pertinent answers came, and his crown of vine-leaves. but he was unmoved, and cried: " if i am mad. but i was resolved to let nothing deter me.
21:25:03 <salpynx> fair enough, I'll accept that as an explanation.
21:31:00 <salpynx> fungot: what's your opinion on August Derleth's mythos stories?
21:31:00 <fungot> salpynx: " as i gazed at this sight from the white star pier in fnord.
21:31:42 <salpynx> '' is pretty much my opinion too
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21:57:21 <esowiki> [[Cthulhu]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=59265 * Joshop * (+412) Created page with "Cthulhu is an esoteric programming language heavily based off of [[Deadfish i]]. == Structure == Cthulhu programs consist of a list of function definitions, with one on each l..."
22:10:56 <salpynx> is this going to force my hand to write up my Lovecraft themed esolang concept I had over new years? I'm already in the middle of about 4 unfinished ideas that are suffering form a lack of focus
22:13:47 <salpynx> are you saying I should wait until I have finished something before writing it up? .... or just 'no' in general :D as in 'no, really "no". Just don't do that.'?
22:14:25 <b_jonas> salpynx: don't write it down earlier just because someone else posts something Lovecraft themed
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22:23:08 <salpynx> b_jonas: good advice. My idea is mostly thematic not-really-implementable (similar to conversations earlier this year in this channel about whether magic systems can be considered 'programming languages'), but with at least one aspect of (hopefully!) practical computation that I have stalled on implementing.
22:23:47 <b_jonas> I mean, if it's Lovecroft-themed, then trying to implementing it could drive you insane
22:23:58 <b_jonas> so if you know it's not implementable, you may get some delay
22:25:14 <salpynx> The fungot theme attracted me, and will probably inspire me to work on it further.
22:25:15 <fungot> salpynx: the intrinsic fnord of the most stupendous and fnord nature of the missing girl... the professor must have made. there was nothing in this room to distinguish it merely the floor of the cavern in the vicinity, and it may be that oonai the city of marble and effulgence. the effect of its blasts on the invisible walls, and once
22:29:16 <salpynx> Huh, just realised that four of the languages I'm casually working on specs for are stalled on figuring out mathematical details. I move quicker when I'm dealing with dead languages and exotic alphabets.
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00:03:33 <esowiki> [[11CORTLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59266&oldid=59259 * Cortex * (-234)
00:05:43 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Salpynx * uploaded "[[File:LHOOQ.png]]"
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00:08:13 <esowiki> [[L.H.O.O.Q.]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=59268 * Salpynx * (+8322) I've been sitting on this for ages. 'joke' complete, but help wanted to finish the maths, if anyone feels like taking this seriously
00:10:21 <esowiki> [[L.H.O.O.Q.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59269&oldid=59268 * Salpynx * (-2) /* Comparison with HQ9+ */
00:11:38 <esowiki> [[L.H.O.O.Q.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59270&oldid=59269 * Salpynx * (-2) /* External resources */
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00:20:56 <esowiki> [[QETAN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59271&oldid=59170 * Cortex * (-1939) Replaced content with "delete this ~~~~"
00:21:11 <esowiki> [[User:Cortex]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59272&oldid=59260 * Cortex * (-12)
00:30:17 <esowiki> [[11CORTLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59273&oldid=59266 * Cortex * (+126) /* Syntax and commands */
00:33:57 <esowiki> [[11CORTLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59274&oldid=59273 * Cortex * (+74)
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00:52:17 <HackEso> 819) <Fiora> usb sushi is dangerous. I think I would try to eat it
00:59:09 <esowiki> [[L.H.O.O.Q.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59275&oldid=59270 * Salpynx * (+69) /* Display limitations */ oops, forgot those when pasting old code
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01:14:51 <esowiki> [[L.H.O.O.Q.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59276&oldid=59275 * Salpynx * (+0)
01:21:34 <salpynx> ok, I'm done with that for today. I probably have other related code snippets to string maniulation, but the L-function stuff is there published on the Wolfram Development platform, which I have only played around with briefly for this demo. Also available: imaginary bottles of beer code in python, which gives entertaining results.
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01:36:58 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * KrystosTheOverlord * New user account
01:42:33 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59277&oldid=59131 * KrystosTheOverlord * (+419) /* Introductions */
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02:12:32 <esowiki> [[@NUM]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=59278 * KrystosTheOverlord * (+1183) Created page with "== @NUM == '''@NUM''' is my first programming language (the name is based on the structure of the code). The language itself consists of a syntax of 11 "words". @NUM is based..."
02:16:27 <esowiki> [[@NUM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59279&oldid=59278 * KrystosTheOverlord * (+78)
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07:43:44 <zzo38> Someone mentioned "In my flying dreams I always have wings, which I understand is uncommon". Is it uncommon? What is you?
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09:29:58 <atriq> I don't think I ever have flying dreams
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09:30:38 <Taneb> I do seem to have occasional Donald Trump dreams, regretfully
09:31:03 <shachaf> is donald trump a tanebvention?
09:45:22 <Luciole> Taneb: are you saying Trump is your dream president?
09:46:27 <int-e> why are we discussing nightmares now?
09:57:03 <int-e> (btw, I do remember dreams occasionally but they tend to be absurd collages and extrapolations of real life events... nothign I really want to remember :P)
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10:31:11 <salpynx> dreams commonly work in dream logic, needing wings to fly is too connected, and not necessary. Most of the time in a dream when something happens, it doesn't require any supporting details, it just happens
10:33:34 <salpynx> I read somewhere you couldn't read proper words in dreams and used to try and recall examples where I had clearly observed sensible text in dreams. The memories seemed to be impressions of meaning, regardless of what the txt was
10:43:40 <fizzie> fungot: Color a dinosaur.
10:43:40 <fungot> fizzie: the vigilant left valparaiso march 25th, and on the other hand the newcomer and all subsequent comers loomed large and close, as if to some eldritch rendezvous more and more
10:45:00 <fungot> salpynx: was it possible that akeley had been surprised by an unexpected visit from them.
10:46:30 <fungot> salpynx: told. he saw towers and walls in nighted depths under the sea, and tried to fathom nature's pandemonium. they
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12:31:46 <esowiki> [[Cthulhu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59283&oldid=59265 * Joshop * (+619)
12:47:31 <esowiki> [[Cthulhu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59284&oldid=59283 * Joshop * (+933)
12:49:38 <esowiki> [[Cthulhu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59285&oldid=59284 * Joshop * (+88)
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12:58:37 <ais523_> @tell b_jonas I don't know what happened to intercal.org.uk; it used to be run by the CLC-INTERCAL maintainer
12:59:58 <ais523_> <b_jonas> I mean, if it's Lovecroft-themed, then trying to implementing it could drive you insane <b_jonas> so if you know it's not implementable, you may get some delay ← that's pretty much what happened with Feather
13:02:53 <ais523_> <fungot> […] 47, 48, 49, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 100, 121, 144, 169, 196, 225, 256, 512, 1024, 2048, ...out of time! ← fizzie: fungot style request: oeis
13:02:53 <fungot> ais523_: it came to him he appeared unaccountably frightened. his father's old butler who was there with other fnord. but at the same time. on earth, and there i dwelt for many aeons. green are the groves and pastures, bright and beautiful, and to
13:03:47 <ais523_> also, whatever program that was, it's impressive that it was printing in decimal
13:04:15 <ais523_> (although it's actually likely multiple programs' output merged, and probably run over a short space of time)
13:05:27 <ais523_> btw, I haven't checked this with technical tools or anything like that, but I have a suspicion that User:Areallycoolusername and User:A are the same person
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13:12:42 <fungot> Selected style: ukparl (UK Parliament debates from brexit referendum to late 2018)
13:12:53 <ais523_> fungot: I guess this style is topical at the moment?
13:12:53 <fungot> ais523_: in about the approach. i urge, that the state of the country, making thousands.
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13:17:24 <ais523_> note that I have my underscore, so I might have to disappear at any moment for work
13:17:41 <wob_jonas> @oeis 47, 48, 49, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 100, 121, 144, 169, 196, 225, 256, 512, 1024, 2048
13:18:37 <wob_jonas> ais523: I know there's not much connection, but http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/art-2 made me think of "But Is It Art?"
13:19:11 <wob_jonas> ais523: also, I looked at Nellephant. apparently you put some little syntactic twist in esolangs even when they're supposed to be "easy to program"
13:19:27 <wob_jonas> in this case, it doesn't really make it harder to program, you can just preprocess the difficulty away
13:19:42 <ais523_> the preprocessor is meant to be the easy-to-program version
13:20:05 <ais523_> the version after preprocessing is meant to be obviously NL-complete, above any other consideration
13:20:13 <wob_jonas> and you probably don't care much about efficient runtime when programming such an NL thing
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13:20:53 <ais523_> well, I do somewhat, it'd be a shame if a Nellephant compiler didn't compile any program to an output program that runs in polynomial time
13:20:56 <wob_jonas> it took me tens of minutes to figure out how to copy a pointer, and how to increment one.
13:21:25 <ais523_> because NL \subseteq P is a classic result of complexity theory
13:22:41 <ais523_> actually, something that I've been realising a lot recently is that people who say "problem X is in complexity class Y" are normally failing to conclusively identify the value of n, and that leads to apparently contradictory results
13:23:28 <ais523_> there are proofs going around that regex-with-backreferences is NP-complete, and yet you can also prove that (at least for the simple model of backreferences that Precognition regexes use) regex-with-backreferences is in NL
13:24:07 <ais523_> the trick is that it's NP in the size of the regex itself, but NL in the size of the string you're running the regex on
13:24:28 <wob_jonas> David Madore wrote a blog article where he complains about how confusing linear logic is. I think you know more about that topic than him.
13:25:34 <wob_jonas> He says that almost every example that people give about what linear logic is useful for doesn't actually cover all of linear logic, only a restricted part or linear logic with more axioms.
13:26:05 <ais523_> wob_jonas: I think the way most linear logicians see things is that linear logic as a whole is a framework for expressing other logics
13:26:14 <ais523_> specifically, many useful logics can be seen as a fragment of linear logic
13:26:35 <wob_jonas> it's not a very deep article though, unlike the typical maths articles he usually writes
13:26:45 <ais523_> and you can write papers using, say, "the call by name fragment of linear logic" and other mathematicians will know what you mean; you're intentionally not using the whole thing, but it's an easy way to define the logic you actually want
13:27:14 <ais523_> sort of like BF--, "non-wrapping brainfuck without the - instruction" clearly isn't the same language, but it's a convenient way to define it
13:27:54 <ais523_> full linear logic has a lot of things that are mostly only there for symmetry/completeness and it would be rare for a language to need every part of it at once
13:28:11 <wob_jonas> ah yes, that crazy language, of which I only learned a few months ago that it was TC
13:28:37 <ais523_> *clearly isn't the same language as brainfuck
13:29:13 <ais523_> fwiw, I was idly wondering recently what the worst possible BF derivative was, and I decided that it was probably the language you get when you delete one of the brackets without deleting the other one
13:29:35 <ais523_> (then I started wondering if BF without ] was TC, if you assume that [ is matched by the end of the program; sadly, it isn't, and it isn't even usable for programming)
13:30:33 <ais523_> that said, the only reason it isn't TC is that you can't break out of the innermost loop, or avoid entering it, without the program just ending; if you assume that every [ is matched by ]> or something then it almost certainly is TC
13:31:15 <ais523_> (actually, make that "certainly" not just "almost certainly", you can trivially modify oerjan's-and-my 2-bracket-BF into that form)
13:31:31 <wob_jonas> yeah, the 2-bracket thing shows that
13:33:10 <wob_jonas> and as for blindfolded arithmetic, I'm remiss there, I'll need to think more and edit the wiki article and then read your solution
13:33:28 <wob_jonas> for two variables that is, after deciding whether I can prove three variables
13:33:52 <Luciole> fungot: point of order, mr. fungot
13:33:52 <fungot> Luciole: are the government as to the possibility, and one of the first things that the indian government,
13:35:39 <ais523_> the two-variable version was a pain, it was pretty much entirely based on trying to figure out what operations were possible
13:36:48 <wob_jonas> people in literature should get their simulees consistent. apparently they both say that someone is "free as a bird", and that someone is "captured like a bird [in a cage]". what's the point of the bird in those simulees then, if it goes both ways?
13:38:14 <ais523_> I'd expect the word for "something that is the object of a simile" to be "similee", but then I'm not sure that there even is such a word
13:38:56 <wob_jonas> as a bonus, I was wondering if blindfolded arithmetic without multiplication is TC. it breaks the usual constructions (even though _most_ of the multiplications are just for convenience or speed or freeing up variables), so I can't prove it, but I think it's probably still TC given enough variables.
13:39:04 <ais523_> but then, hmm, maybe that's the subject, because the similor should be the person making the comparison…
13:39:46 <ais523_> all the constructions I've used so far fundamentally rely on multiplication, but when you have a lot of variables, there's a lot of leeway in the construction
13:39:56 <ais523_> you may be able to get around it using repeated addition plus division
13:40:00 <wob_jonas> has two "i" because "similar" does
13:40:53 <ais523_> that said, I'm not surprised I don't know the words for the various things involved in a simile, many people don't know them for even basic arithmetic operations because they're not actually useful
13:41:10 <ais523_> many people know dividend, divisor, quotient, remainder
13:41:17 <ais523_> because divisions have a lot of parts to keep track of
13:41:21 <lambdabot> *** "augend" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
13:41:21 <lambdabot> n 1: a number to which another number (the addend) is added
13:41:40 <ais523_> but for operations like addition, there are words for the various parts of the addition, but only "sum" is regularly used
13:41:53 <ais523_> "addend" and "augend" are used only very rarely
13:41:56 <lambdabot> *** "minuend" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
13:41:56 <lambdabot> n 1: the number from which the subtrahend is subtracted
13:41:57 <lambdabot> *** "subtrahend" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
13:41:58 <lambdabot> n 1: the number to be subtracted from the minuend
13:42:06 <wob_jonas> "term" for addition and subtraction
13:42:14 <ais523_> really, the timing there was perfect
13:42:25 <esowiki> [[@NUM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59286&oldid=59280 * KrystosTheOverlord * (+682)
13:42:41 <ais523_> "accumulator" is useful for describing a programming and/or processor-implementation technique
13:42:59 <ais523_> and it is not necessarily limited to additions, it depends on the processor
13:44:14 <wob_jonas> so we have "term", and for multiplications, "product", and there's probably English terms for the two operands of a non-commutative multiplication separately
13:44:24 <wob_jonas> but yeah, I don't think I ever heard of "augend"
13:44:39 <ais523_> probably the second-best known after the terms for a division
13:45:06 <wob_jonas> the results are "sum" and "difference" and "product" of course
13:45:15 <ais523_> or, well, "multiplicand" is used very rarely, but "multiplier" is very common
13:45:22 <wob_jonas> ah sorry, I meant "factor" is the generic for multipliaction operands
13:45:26 <wob_jonas> "product" is the result obviously]
13:45:38 <ais523_> "factor" is weird, it's mostly used in the sense of something that divides into a number exactly
13:45:58 <ais523_> after programming in Brachylog, I've got used to "unmultiplication" as its own primitive operation
13:46:22 <ais523_> it is similar to division but it's only defined where the result is an integer, otherwise it retroactively unasks the question
13:46:36 <wob_jonas> and there were at least three words for exponentiation too, probably more than three
13:46:36 <esowiki> [[@NUM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59287&oldid=59286 * KrystosTheOverlord * (+24)
13:47:13 <wob_jonas> "exponent" for the second argument of exponentiation I think
13:47:22 <ais523_> "base"/"exponent" is probably the most commonly used by mathematicians, but I agree that there are plenty of others (many of which are hoplessly misleading)
13:47:52 <ais523_> I blame mnemonics that people use for the order of operations
13:48:32 <ais523_> "BIDMAS" and "BODMAS" are common; the latter is especially weird as people seem unclear on what the O stands for (I've seen people claim it stands for "of"!)
13:48:35 <wob_jonas> there are some crazy generic terms like "characteristic", and it gets worse at "modulus" of course
13:48:52 <ais523_> "PEMDAS" seems to be correct as mnemonics go, I suspect it's a more modern version
13:49:14 <ais523_> (although any of these confuse people who program in float arithmetic as they don't handle the coassociativity of muliplication/division and of addition/subtraction)
13:49:33 <ais523_> wob_jonas: "modulus" is pretty clear when you're talking about modular arithmetic
13:49:37 <wob_jonas> right, they're the order of operations in some very rare programming languages I think
13:49:50 <ais523_> the only potential issue is when what you actually want to talk about is the operation called % in C
13:49:54 <wob_jonas> ais523: "modulus" is confusing because it means two things that are apparently unrelated
13:50:16 <wob_jonas> the other meaning is the absolute value or magnitude of a complex number or things like that
13:50:34 <ais523_> hmm, I vaguely remember that term, but I don't think it's commonly used
13:50:53 <wob_jonas> yes, people usually have the sense to use other ambiguous terms, like "magnitude" or "norm"
13:51:03 <wob_jonas> or "length" or "sumsq" or "abs" ...
13:51:29 <wob_jonas> "modulus" is just ambiguous, "norm" is ambiguous between two very close meanings
13:51:39 <ais523_> because "norm" should be at right angles to the original?
13:51:39 <wob_jonas> mind you, "sign" vs "sine" is also bad
13:53:08 <ais523_> it took me embarrassingly long to realise that "normal" in the phrase "normal reaction" (from physics/mechanics) means "at right angles", rather than just "it's normal for things to collide rather than phase through each other"
13:54:02 <wob_jonas> that's where it comes from? I just sort of accepted that "normal" primarily means in the direction of a gradient, and being orthogonal to a surface or even to a curve is just a secondary meaning from that
13:54:15 <wob_jonas> I didn't care what it has to do with non-maths meanings of "normal"
13:55:15 <wob_jonas> I don't think it really means "at right angles", because if you purely want that, you say "orthogonal" instead
13:55:19 <ais523_> right, the normal reaction is at right angles to the plane tangent to the contact point at both objects
13:55:36 <ais523_> (you assume they have a common tangent plane, otherwise they'd roll rather than slide)
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14:31:31 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Swampie27782 * New user account
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17:26:48 <b_jonas> I wonder what is the lowest number of solo singers you can have for an opera buffo, but this question may be too ill-defined.
17:30:27 <b_jonas> Five solo singers is definitely possible, reached by many operas.
17:30:38 <b_jonas> Four should be possible I think.
17:35:18 <b_jonas> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rita_(opera) by Donizetti apparently has three
17:37:24 <b_jonas> Just two solo singers probably requires some creative rules abuse.
17:39:18 <b_jonas> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betly also has three apparently
17:48:51 <b_jonas> apparently https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Il_Pigmalione is a very short opera (not an opera buffa, but I care about any opera in the wide sense) with two solo singers
17:50:27 <b_jonas> only one solo singer should be very hard even with rule abuse, but who knows
17:51:52 <b_jonas> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Villi by Puccini has three solo singers
17:56:30 <b_jonas> let me check my dictionary for what "remiss" actually means, since I just used it in a conversation here a few hours ago
17:57:35 <b_jonas> ok, not exact, but it works
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18:31:47 <b_jonas> oh look, he'll leave the money to himself
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19:10:25 <esowiki> [[Cthulhu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59288&oldid=59285 * Joshop * (+23)
19:13:05 <esowiki> [[Cthulhu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59289&oldid=59288 * Joshop * (+21)
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19:37:21 <esowiki> [[@NUM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59290&oldid=59287 * KrystosTheOverlord * (+424)
19:42:13 <esowiki> [[Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59291&oldid=59033 * KrystosTheOverlord * (+1)
19:42:25 <esowiki> [[Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59292&oldid=59291 * KrystosTheOverlord * (-1)
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20:20:10 <b_jonas> Apparently AGDQ 2019 has an "orb" meme
20:20:21 <b_jonas> where they shout "orb" for achievements in every game, not only SMW
20:30:03 <Phantom_Hoover> like there was one game where they started chanting 'orb' and then in subsequent games when anything vaguely round was involved they'd chant 'orb'
20:44:30 <b_jonas> I'm watching the Super Mario Odyssey run, which is not any%, but a much longer category with 350 moons,
20:44:48 <b_jonas> although admittedly there are some moons in that one too that the crowd skip
20:45:02 <b_jonas> they can't keep it up for all 350, occasionally their minds wander off
20:49:40 <b_jonas> ah no, only 300 moons apparently
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21:05:38 <shachaf> orin: fix your google maps api key hth
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22:01:47 <esowiki> [[@NUM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59293&oldid=59290 * KrystosTheOverlord * (+55)
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00:00:02 <zzo38> There is the obsolete "myria-" metric prefix. I think it can still be used for radio frequencies, for example the frequency of the CBC radio in my area is sixty-nine myriahertz. Also, is there a prefix for 10^27 and 10^30? I think there probably should be some (one thing to use is to measure the mass of the Earth, and perhaps other planets; larger units will be needed for stars).
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02:52:35 <salpynx> What is the "computational class" of Deadfish? (or equivalent formal definition to describe what it _is_ in relation to computation, if the answer is not computational)
02:52:47 <salpynx> It struck me that Deadfish is probably a good archetype of many 'encoding only' langauges on the wiki, and the Deadfish page says nothing about its class, other than "Unusable for programming", which doesn't feel like a formal category, as there might be many reasons why a language is unusable.
02:53:36 <salpynx> I'm currently considering the langs '+' (minimal, with no output), and HQ9+ (on the surface 'does more stuff') to be "computationally equivalent" to Deadfish, and in the same category, even though they have surface differences. Any number of other 'encoding' text output only esolangs would also in this class.
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03:16:13 <salpynx> "Sequential logic" ? apparently
03:17:27 <salpynx> "Combinational logic" is apparently a Automata class, but Sequential isn't? Sequential Logic seems a better description of these langs' power
03:21:45 <salpynx> HQ9+ without the plus is implementable with combinational logic, adding the plus requires sequential logic? Deadfish is implementable with sequential logic, but not combinational.
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03:50:22 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59294&oldid=58460 * Salpynx * (+55) /* Variants of deadfish */ update TC description
04:30:34 <salpynx> looking for language to describe and distinguish between things that are substantially less powerful than many FSAs. Perhaps Deadfish simply is a FSA, and there is further description required to say more about the computational power of a FSA, or to compare it to other FSA
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06:38:24 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59295&oldid=59294 * Zzo38 * (+975) +Glulx
06:49:48 <zzo38> Why is there not the implementation of Deadfish in INTERCAL by now?
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09:15:33 <int-e> good morning fungot
09:15:33 <fungot> int-e: of the data, and the way to do that. between cutting hours.
09:15:47 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl* youtube
09:16:17 <lambdabot> arseniiv said 1d 13h 17m 36s ago: ah that explains what I’ve seen yesterday about one of the pages; should I correct something in the discussion, then?
09:16:45 * oerjan has rather forgot what the discussion was
09:18:33 <oerjan> @tell arseniiv not really, we do have a tradition of sometimes using "subpages" in the main space even if they're technically not.
09:22:47 <oerjan> I'm wondering if Areallycoolusername is really a different person from A, i first thought no, but the e seems to be going to a lot of effort to not edit the same pages with both nicks
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09:37:04 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59296&oldid=59256 * Oerjan * (-27) deleted
09:37:19 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[QETAN]]": Author request: content was: "delete this [[User:Cortex|Cortex]] ([[User talk:Cortex|talk]]) 00:20, 18 January 2019 (UTC)", and the only contributor was "[[Special:Contributions/Cortex|Cortex]]" ([[User talk:Cortex|talk]])
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09:49:40 <oerjan> oh and i just see ais523 has the same suspicion that they're the same
09:50:28 <oerjan> @tell ais523 i've assumed Areallycoolusername was A almost from the start, but lately e's putting in so much effort to use both while not confusing them that i was starting to wonder...
10:00:21 <esowiki> [[+-]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59297&oldid=58590 * Salpynx * (-34264) Categorize and remove incorrect example. Spec states ASCII output
10:18:47 <esowiki> [[Nope.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59298&oldid=59161 * Salpynx * (+110) Add categories
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11:17:04 <b_jonas> `ehlist http://eheroes.smackjeeves.com/comics/2733435/have-i-told-you/
11:17:05 <HackEso> ehlist http://eheroes.smackjeeves.com/comics/2733435/have-i-told-you/: b_jonas
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12:27:51 <FreeFull> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQXa6TkSeH0 Seems to be befunge for sound?
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14:42:03 <xkapastel> FreeFull: yeah i saw that too, very cool
14:42:32 <xkapastel> i realized that devine guy has been doing lots of cool stuff for years
14:43:01 <xkapastel> i remember some older 3d games from him, and some other text mmo-ish deal. this is the first time i've seen him do a PL i think
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18:47:39 <esowiki> [[Cthulhu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59299&oldid=59289 * Joshop * (+1)
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21:17:02 <esowiki> [[11CORTLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59300&oldid=59281 * Cortex * (-108)
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21:32:25 <esowiki> [[Fish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59301&oldid=58594 * Cortex * (+21)
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22:27:57 <b_jonas> my hon. and learned friend fungot, do you like stars?
22:27:58 <fungot> b_jonas: this is a very important one, and the right to a say. the hon. and learned friend the minister for the work he is now undertaking to restore the very modest contribution, to ask when the government have
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22:54:24 <esowiki> [[Cthulhu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59302&oldid=59299 * Joshop * (+45)
22:55:31 <esowiki> [[Cthulhu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59303&oldid=59302 * Joshop * (+1)
23:14:03 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Cheddarmonk * New user account
23:18:14 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59304&oldid=59277 * Cheddarmonk * (+244) /* Introductions */
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23:37:24 <esowiki> [[User talk:BMO]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=59305 * Cheddarmonk * (+1231) Alchemist: doc bugs, suggestions
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00:56:09 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59306&oldid=59004 * Helen * (+3191) Added bitch v2.0 content + updated implementation to follow. Updated the .jar
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01:07:04 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59307&oldid=59306 * Helen * (+1) /* Bitwise Instructions */ Spelling is hard
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04:31:02 <zzo38> Why does JavaScript not have any RegExp.quote() function?
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07:49:20 <HackEso> mustard watch//A mustard watch is just a classical watch extended with a certain amount of mustard in the mechanism.
07:51:57 <b_jonas> zzo38: https://stackoverflow.com/a/29700268/
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09:08:32 <zzo38> Finally, now glasm can compile huffed strings.
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09:17:06 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Bigmac * New user account
09:37:32 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59308&oldid=59304 * Bigmac * (+334) /* Introductions */
09:38:56 <esowiki> [[User:Bigmac]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=59309 * Bigmac * (+18) Created page with "What's good shawty"
09:50:20 <esowiki> [[CancelScript]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=59310 * Bigmac * (+554) Initial description and specification
09:51:30 <esowiki> [[CancelScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59311&oldid=59310 * Bigmac * (-4) /* Specification */
09:57:37 <esowiki> [[CancelScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59312&oldid=59311 * Bigmac * (+255) Add description of CancelScript's conception
10:02:23 <esowiki> [[CancelScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59313&oldid=59312 * Bigmac * (+274) Add section on implementations
10:02:54 <esowiki> [[CancelScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59314&oldid=59313 * Bigmac * (-1) /* Implementations */ fix typo
10:34:11 <arseniiv> someone going to watch the lunar eclipse tomorrow? (I can’t, it would be under the horizon :( but I’ve seen one of the previous ones with binoculars)
10:36:35 <arseniiv> though it may require a ceiling window :D
10:38:07 <int-e> it's also way too early
10:38:16 <arseniiv> oh, and it’s winter now in the northern hemisphere, where the eclipse would be observable primarily, so, well, if anyone ever had a ceiling window, it would be probably obscured by snow or cloudy weather...
10:39:05 <arseniiv> yeah, a very uncomfortable eclipse. The one I watched was in the evening
10:39:21 <arseniiv> and also close to the horizon so yay window
10:40:16 <arseniiv> I think we have a pretty bad luck about total *solar* eclipses though. I want the sky to dim, but it doesn’t
10:40:46 <arseniiv> and when it does, in my case it’s night time anyway
10:40:58 <int-e> It may actually be obscured by mountains around here... though that's unclear (the Innsbruck valley is aligned in the E-W direction so it may actually work out fine)
10:41:31 <int-e> but my window is on the wrong side. and then there would be more buildings... so stepping outside would definitely be required.
10:42:27 <int-e> But I have a couple more hours to make a decision. :P
10:46:29 <arseniiv> the previous summer I found a neat place to watch stars and something, it was almost perfectly flat in all directions and had the less obstructed horizon I’ve seen. Alas, it’s too far from the place I live, from the place I was at at the time, and I think it’s not easy navigable in winter, so it’s only a dream. Also I didn’t even profit that one time, as it was the early evening and then we had to go
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10:54:36 <esowiki> [[Fish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59315&oldid=59301 * Oerjan * (-21) Undo revision 59301 by [[Special:Contributions/Cortex|Cortex]] ([[User talk:Cortex|talk]]) (Doesn't work unless the displayed title normalizes to the underlying one.)
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11:32:01 <b_jonas> arseniic: not watching. lunar eclipses are boring, and it's not visible here anyway.
11:32:08 <b_jonas> it's visible in the Americas mostly.
11:36:47 <b_jonas> it is actually visible here
12:33:24 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59316&oldid=59307 * Helen * (-508) /* Implementation */ Added working implementation
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13:00:54 <fizzie> I think it would be visible from our windows, and they're predicting a non-cloudy night, but it's an awkward time to be awake.
13:13:01 <arseniiv> b_jonas: yeah, they aren’t that spectacular, but I haven’t sated yet, having properly watched it only once, and it wasn’t too full; the same with solar eclipses, but they also require preparation to not burn the eyes, so...
13:23:57 <b_jonas> arseniiv: solar eclipses are much rarer (though admittedly they at least aren't during the night)
13:24:18 <b_jonas> but sure, feel free to watch it if you want
13:27:29 <int-e> . o O ( viewed differently, there's a solar eclipse every night )
13:33:20 <arseniiv> b_jonas: hehe but I can’t watch this one
13:34:00 <arseniiv> int-e: surely, I have even read it somewhere as a remark on usefulness of definitions :D
13:35:30 <arseniiv> anyway even if I could watch it, it’s timing is bad indeed, I usually sleep in the morning, sometimes all the way up to noon (a bad habit)
14:01:11 <b_jonas> oh, you're in the wrong location for it?
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14:10:31 <esowiki> [[User talk:BMO]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59317&oldid=59305 * BMO * (+2364)
14:15:06 <esowiki> [[User talk:BMO]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59318&oldid=59317 * BMO * (+181)
14:18:06 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59319&oldid=59308 * Swampie27782 * (+363)
14:18:49 <esowiki> [[SPADE]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=59320 * Swampie27782 * (+675) A deceptively inconvenient programming language
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14:19:10 <esowiki> [[SPADE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59321&oldid=59320 * Swampie27782 * (+27)
14:20:14 <b_jonas> my hon. and learned friend fungot, can you offer me some general advice on when it is good tactics to use villagers against siege weapons when your town is raided?
14:20:14 <fungot> b_jonas: an fnord us nought. the results of the uk proud study, the hospital encountered, and to some of the actions, or lack of a course, and the services.
14:21:12 <esowiki> [[SPADE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59322&oldid=59321 * Swampie27782 * (+154)
14:23:17 <b_jonas> so my hon. and learned friend fungot, who may or may not be an Age of Mythology expert, recommends to never use villagers against siege weapons
14:23:18 <fungot> b_jonas: with the eu charter.
14:25:15 <esowiki> [[SPADE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59323&oldid=59322 * Swampie27782 * (+1)
14:26:30 <esowiki> [[SPADE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59324&oldid=59323 * Swampie27782 * (+104)
14:31:37 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl* youtube
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14:35:27 <esowiki> [[User talk:BMO]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59325&oldid=59318 * Cheddarmonk * (+1500)
14:41:04 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59326&oldid=59210 * Swampie27782 * (+12)
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15:12:41 <orin> https://imgur.com/AbwayW8.jpg
16:07:42 <esowiki> [[User talk:BMO]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59327&oldid=59325 * BMO * (+1370)
16:08:55 <esowiki> [[User talk:BMO]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59328&oldid=59327 * BMO * (+6)
17:35:21 <esowiki> [[User talk:BMO]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59329&oldid=59328 * Cheddarmonk * (+257)
17:43:47 <zzo38> Is this the proper implementation of CancelScript? scanf(" %*1[Cc]%*1[Aa]%*1[Nn]%*1[Cc]%*1[Ee]%*1[Ll]");
17:48:22 <esowiki> [[Talk:CancelScript]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=59330 * Zzo38 * (+165) Implementation in C
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19:10:46 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59331&oldid=59326 * Oerjan * (+0) Emor ginorst
19:40:39 <esowiki> [[Hexomnia]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=59332 * Cortex * (+713) Created page with "{{WIP}} '''Hexomnia''' is a language made by [[User:Cortex|]], inspired by [[Insomnia]]. But, instead of reading each character as its (for lack of a better term) ASCII number..."
19:40:54 <esowiki> [[User:Cortex]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59333&oldid=59282 * Cortex * (+15)
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22:30:37 <esowiki> [[Hexomnia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59334&oldid=59332 * Cortex * (+137)
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23:27:55 <esowiki> [[User talk:BMO]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59335&oldid=59329 * BMO * (+337)
23:30:27 <esowiki> [[L.H.O.O.Q.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59336&oldid=59276 * Salpynx * (+5243) Dirichlet character specification details
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23:54:44 <esowiki> [[Alchemist]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59337&oldid=59263 * BMO * (+1096)
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23:57:44 <esowiki> [[User talk:BMO]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59338&oldid=59335 * BMO * (+209)
23:58:10 <esowiki> [[User talk:BMO]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59339&oldid=59338 * BMO * (+73)
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00:06:46 <esowiki> [[L.H.O.O.Q.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59340&oldid=59336 * Salpynx * (+28) /* Language goals */
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00:57:49 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59341&oldid=59043 * Cortex * (+14)
00:58:07 <esowiki> [[User:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59342&oldid=58996 * Cortex * (+14) lowercased the title
01:58:19 <arseniiv> zzo38: about CancelScript: in the light of the last trends of Esowiki activity, I feel there’s a need to extract another category weakscripts, in analogy with “Brainfuck derivatives”
02:00:44 <esowiki> [[Hexomnia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59343&oldid=59334 * Cortex * (+116)
02:13:42 <arseniiv> also it’s unfair I have thought up a weakscript way earlier, and it was a statically typed one, namely a language with a singleton type, function types, and automatic type isomorphism calculation, so essentially just only one type and the one value, and the program is automatically that value and you don’t need to define anything and type inference is absolute. This typing is so complete and elegant that we don’t really need to ad
02:13:42 <arseniiv> d something as mundane as Turing-completeness; I named this thing Agua as a transparent nod to Agda and water (as in “water down”—can’t conclude something for English, but in Russian this can be used about a text and has negative connotations such as the text is too long but means not a lot, i. e. because of pseudophilosophical passages or clumsy legalese-like syntax), but it seems the time has gone
02:14:46 <arseniiv> I think singleton-typed weakscript is a really neat idea but I still have scraps of modesty to not flood it to the wiki :D
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02:40:59 <zzo38> arseniiv: Stuff like CancelScript could also fit with joke language and unusable for programming, but maybe another such category is helpful I don't know.
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03:24:22 <salpynx> FWIW, I'm seriously interested in properly classifying silly languages like `+`, `+-`, `HQ9+`, and `Deadfish`, which might be related to the class of weakscripts (which seems like a good category, if we can come up with a formal, as well as informal, definition.)
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03:28:48 <salpynx> I really like Deadfish, and `+` is a fundamental joke with value > 0
03:35:23 <salpynx> I have been thinking recently that 'unusable for programming' is neither specific nor formal, and if any community is going to bother coming up with formal terminology to compare the lack-of-merit of two different weakscripts, it's the esolang community.
03:39:50 <zzo38> Some are incapable of anything at all, and some can do something but not much.
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05:47:02 <esowiki> [[L.H.O.O.Q.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59344&oldid=59340 * Salpynx * (+27) /* See also */
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09:11:25 <esowiki> [[User:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59345&oldid=59342 * Oerjan * (-104) Note seems unnecessary now
09:12:56 * oerjan is ambivalent about the brainfuck edit
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09:21:56 <int-e> I guess it's justified because Urban Müller wrote it in lower case: "This archive contains the following programs: bfc The compiler for the 'brainfuck' language (240 bytes!)"
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09:23:49 <oerjan> yes but iirc he never used it at the beginning of a sentence
09:24:02 <oerjan> *iirc it's been said that
09:24:44 <oerjan> and in general, words that vary depending on that get capitalized titles
09:25:28 <int-e> And he always put it in quotes :P
09:25:41 <int-e> So let's rename the page... ...or maybe not.
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09:42:11 <int-e> I really love today's xkcd. It probably helps to have seen stuff like https://ambcrypto.com/bitcoin-btc-usd-technical-analysis-bulls-ride-the-prices-out-of-the-immediate-resistance-zone/ before, which I've always found highly amusing.
09:42:40 <int-e> Especially the idea that this constitutes a "technical analysis".
09:48:54 <shachaf> If the \rainbow{blockchain} people take all the technical analysis nonsense with them away from markets that matter, that'll be a positive thing, I guess
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12:20:17 <esowiki> [[CancelScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59346&oldid=59314 * Bigmac * (+149) Add categories
12:22:04 <esowiki> [[CancelScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59347&oldid=59346 * Bigmac * (-28) Not a joke language!
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16:43:29 <orin> why the hell are mac chargers designed to operate at temperatures on the brink of bursting into flame
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17:45:17 <esowiki> [[CancelScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59349&oldid=59347 * Bigmac * (+305) /* Implementations */ Add reference and Zzo38's implementations
17:47:08 <esowiki> [[CancelScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59350&oldid=59349 * Bigmac * (+0) Correct Capitalisation
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18:25:08 <esowiki> [[Funciton]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59352&oldid=59226 * Qpliu * (-11) /* External resources */
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19:31:34 <b_jonas> my hon. and learned friend fungot, what do you think of the red supermoon?
19:31:35 <fungot> b_jonas: i was not there, there is a much wider, fnord area, after a bill receives its funding, which will no doubt that that is the future,
19:33:15 <fizzie> It was cloudy where we were.
19:33:34 <fizzie> (After an entirely clear day, of course.)
19:34:47 <esowiki> [[Iterating quine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59354&oldid=8392 * B jonas * (+106) /* External resources */
19:36:03 <b_jonas> wait... so after the bill receives funding, you'll be able to see the eclipse from a larger area? is the bill about a project for speeding up the rotation of Earth?
19:38:45 <fizzie> Well, it's the future.
19:40:44 <b_jonas> fizzie: the eclipse was mostly visible here in Budapest, but I was sleeping so I didn't see it
19:56:52 <imode> I totally missed it. -_-
20:04:44 <arseniiv> I just realized I should have been included let bindings in the definition of Ⅎ, what functional language is it without them?
20:06:07 <arseniiv> also when I tested it writing some code, I really missed let bindings already, but then for some reason have forgotten that
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20:44:34 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59355&oldid=59331 * Cortex * (+32)
21:08:05 <b_jonas> arseniiv: don't worry, I've made that mistake once or twice. https://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Scripts/Scheme is a small interpreter that has lambdas but no built-in let, which is inconvenient.
21:11:38 <b_jonas> arseniiv: the Wikiplia core language also has no built-in let, only a lambda and a one-level case that deconstructs a top level builtin constructor, but I believe the higher level language implements let using the case primitive and the list primitive (building a temporary list and deconstructing it immediately).
21:13:34 <b_jonas> arseniiv: Olvasható (my esolang) sort of has a problem with this too. the theory is that it has a case that you can use to deconstruct as much or as little as you want, so you can use it as a simple let statement, but that's only the theory, in practice the compiler doesn't always compile such case statements to proper let statements.
21:14:10 <b_jonas> in particular, the SML backend always emits a case statements, never a let statement. this wouldn't be hard to fix though.
21:14:41 <b_jonas> Obviously the other interpreter I pointed to could also be fixed to handle let.
21:30:04 <imode> graph rewriting automata are wild.
21:34:16 <imode> the connection/disconnection rules are interesting. the process for generating new nodes/graphs is equivalent to subdivision: take a node and turn it into 3 nodes. every node has 3 neighbors.
21:37:48 <esowiki> [[Hexomnia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59356&oldid=59343 * Cortex * (+120)
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21:47:53 <imode> I don't like the formalism too much. it makes too many assumptions on the "background". there has to be some space that the rewriting is taking place within.
21:59:54 <esowiki> [[User talk:BMO]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59357&oldid=59339 * Cheddarmonk * (+219)
22:03:37 <jeb> does anyone know where i can find a fresh interpreter for snowflake?
22:05:57 <rain1> I think you can do lambda calculus as graph rewriting
22:34:02 <esowiki> [[11CORTLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59358&oldid=59300 * Cortex * (+124)
22:39:08 <imode> I'm partial to things with a fixed background, or formalisms that can either be tied to a fixed background or a dynamic one.
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23:24:38 <HackEso> olist 1152: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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02:10:53 <esowiki> [[Unified HQ9+]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=59360 * Cortex * (+1845) Created page with "'''Unified HQ9+''' is a language made by [[User:Cortex|]] to unify all HQ9+ variants. It includes commands from just about every HQ9+ variant [[User:Cortex|Quine]] could find,..."
02:11:13 <esowiki> [[Unified HQ9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59361&oldid=59360 * Cortex * (-4)
02:12:20 <esowiki> [[User:Cortex]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59362&oldid=59333 * Cortex * (+19)
02:13:21 <esowiki> [[Unified HQ9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59363&oldid=59361 * Cortex * (+13)
02:32:53 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Esofabrv * New user account
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02:47:34 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59364&oldid=59319 * Esofabrv * (+177) /* Introductions */
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03:01:39 <imode> cellular automata on complete graphs correspond directly to something like multiset rewriting or counter machines.
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04:03:09 <esowiki> [[Unified HQ9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59365&oldid=59363 * Cortex * (+426)
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04:24:17 <esowiki> [[Unified HQ9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59366&oldid=59365 * Cortex * (+352)
04:24:53 <esowiki> [[Esolang:General disclaimer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59367&oldid=47089 * Cortex * (+38)
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05:48:56 <imode> there are two ways to define a cellular automaton to me: one that specifies rewrite rules for different neighborhoods over some kind of topology, and one that defines these neighborhoods without mentioning any specific spatial arrangement of cell states.
05:49:45 <imode> it's the difference between saying "This cell is in state 1 if the north cell is in state 0, the south cell is in state 1, the east cell is in state 0, and the west cell is in state 1" and "This cell is in state 1 if at least 2 of its neighbors are in state 1."
05:51:25 <imode> there are areas where these two styles of definition break down. one in particular is cellular automata defined over complete graphs. the idea of rewrite rules breaks down because the neighborhood for a given cell in a complete graph is the rest of the graph, i.e every other node.
05:51:59 <imode> the ruleset would be _giant_ for even moderately sized complete graphs.
05:52:51 <imode> but these problems go away if you use the other definition method. if you do that, the entire system is reduced to something like multiset rewriting, or counter automata.
05:54:15 <imode> your ruleset is reduced to "how many of my neighbors are in these states", vs. "is anybody near me in these specific positions in this state."
05:56:35 <imode> I start pondering what's more "fundamental" at this point. if we assume a totally connected neighborhood, we throw out any assumption of any "place" in space being further than any other place: anywhere's just one hop away, no matter what.
05:58:09 <imode> if you arrive at multiset rewriting/counter automata just by a reduction (or rather, explosion) of a traditional cellular automaton, there should be something to that.
06:00:27 <imode> petri nets seem to be calling out to me.
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07:50:36 <esowiki> [[Unified HQ9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59368&oldid=59366 * Cortex * (+6)
07:50:56 <esowiki> [[Unified HQ9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59369&oldid=59368 * Cortex * (+1) /* Hello, World! */
08:07:33 <esowiki> [[Unified HQ9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59370&oldid=59369 * Cortex * (+407)
08:13:31 <zzo38> About "Unwinnable by Design" on the All The Tropes wiki (which mentions zarf's cruelty scale), for "Paranoia" it mentions "even if the GM can't think of a way to succeed, throw it at them anyway, they might come up with something"; I think it is a good idea (not only for Paranoia, but for other systems too). Otherwise, the game is too easy, isn't it?
08:17:31 <HackEso> We'll write about TVTropes here, we just have to finish these tabs first.
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08:46:23 <lambdabot> ENVA 220820Z 09005KT CAVOK M12/M14 Q1006 NOSIG RMK WIND 670FT 14011KT
09:20:07 <lambdabot> LOWI 220850Z VRB01KT CAVOK M04/M09 Q1012 R08/19//95 NOSIG
09:24:38 <lambdabot> KOAK 220853Z 00000KT 10SM CLR 09/04 A3034 RMK AO2 SLP272 T00940044 51008
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09:37:54 <oerjan> if durkon hasn't had proper beer for 20 years he should be careful with it...
09:39:12 <oerjan> (although there'll be plenty of humor opportunities if he's not)
09:41:11 <myname> i should look at what the hell these meta ourputs mean sometime
09:50:41 <HackEso> metar is a service Taneb invented that allows nerds to talk about the weather.
09:59:16 <esowiki> [[Esolang:General disclaimer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59371&oldid=59367 * Oerjan * (+1) WARNING: This formatting is broken.
10:00:40 <myname> yet another tanebvention. okay
10:02:29 <Taneb> myname: it's really getting out of hand I'm afraid
10:06:27 <shachaf> Taneb: Oh, you invented METAR?
10:06:51 <Taneb> shachaf: it would seem so!
10:07:11 <oerjan> @tell imode The second kind of CA you mention is called "totalistic" iirc.
10:07:21 <myname> who doesn't remember the big inventors. edison, newton, tesla, taneb, ...
10:11:47 <oerjan> @tell imode for two-valued cells, anyway, there might be more than one way to define it if there are more values.
10:13:23 -!- oerjan has set topic: 2019 IOCCC ends March 15th -- http://www.ioccc.org/2019/rules.txt | Welcome to the international corncob for esoteric programming language discussion, design, development and deployment! | https://esolangs.org | logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf.
10:13:49 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure news items should be first if anyone's going to see them
10:38:31 <shachaf> topics are written, never read hth
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11:30:32 <esowiki> [[User:Weirdlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59372&oldid=58984 * Weirdlang * (+5)
11:59:06 <Taneb> If you encode your data into folds in one direction, you could use a shredder as a photocopier
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12:10:27 <wob_jonas> myname: yeah, they're in a bit of a cryptic format with lots of extensions and freedom in it. I believe the "09005KT" means wind from the direction of 90 degrees (East), with speed of 05 knots, both numbers in decimal;
12:11:12 <Taneb> My problem with metar is I can never remember my nearest airport's IATA code
12:11:19 <myname> i have to look at cryptic commands from some GDS recently, those are as horrible
12:11:22 <wob_jonas> NOSIG means something about good visibility in visible light spectrum and lack of certain kinds of clouds, Q1012 is barometric pressure,
12:11:31 <lambdabot> EGSC 221150Z 26009KT 9999 FEW030 05/00 Q1001
12:11:55 <lambdabot> LHBP 221200Z 06005KT 020V110 7000 SCT040 BKN120 M03/M06 Q1014 NOSIG
12:12:13 <myname> i thought airports are three-lettered?
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12:12:21 <Taneb> myname: that's a different code
12:12:33 <Taneb> Although I had the names backwards
12:12:39 <Taneb> IATA is 3 letters, ICAO is 4
12:12:47 <wob_jonas> I mean, the "Q1012" means that the equivalent barometric pressure at sea level is 101200 Pa,
12:13:50 <Taneb> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICAO_airport_code#ICAO_codes_vs._IATA_codes
12:13:56 <wob_jonas> the "M03/" is the temperature, the "221200Z" is an incomplete timestamp of the observation meaning ---22T12:00 UTC, with the year and month unspecified but hopefully close to the current date
12:14:27 <wob_jonas> I mean "M03/" is air temperature of -03 deg C
12:15:18 <wob_jonas> and "/M06" means the dew point (the temperature at which the air couldn't hold all the water it has in gas form) is -06 degrees C
12:15:28 <wob_jonas> the "LHBP" at the start is the location of course
12:15:47 <wob_jonas> there are some other variable parts of the metar too, but I don't really know how they work
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12:23:24 <wob_jonas> apparently the "SCT040 BKN210" is also about the clouds
12:24:05 <wob_jonas> "020V110" is additional info about the wind
12:25:35 <fizzie> NOSIG is just "NO SIGnificant changes expected in the near term"
12:25:54 <wob_jonas> and which code says that it's not raining?
12:26:05 <fizzie> The lack of "RA" or "SN" anywhere.
12:26:48 <fizzie> (It can also be -RA or +RA for little rain or heavy rain, respectively.)
12:26:51 <lambdabot> EGLL 221220Z AUTO 27008KT 9999 NCD 06/02 Q1002 NOSIG
12:27:05 <fizzie> Heathrow METARs are always so short.
12:27:15 <fizzie> (But at least it's a nice day.)
12:27:38 <Taneb> What does the 9999 mean?
12:27:39 <lambdabot> EFHK 221220Z VRB02KT 9999 FEW047 SCT200 M18/M19 Q1014 NOSIG
12:27:44 <myname> does that command also work with iata codes?
12:27:54 <fizzie> Taneb: That's the visibility thing, yes.
12:27:55 <Taneb> myname: no, there's not always a nice correspondence
12:28:13 <fizzie> myname: You can look up the corresponding ICAO code with `iata though.
12:28:16 <HackEso> Helsinki Vantaa (HEL, EFHK)
12:28:27 <HackEso> Berlin Brandenburg Willy Brandt (BER, EDDB)
12:28:38 <Taneb> I don't know either code for Cambridge
12:28:47 <lambdabot> EDDB 221220Z 17006KT CAVOK M00/M05 Q1012 NOSIG
12:28:51 <fizzie> Taneb: Well, `airport searches all the fields, including the name.
12:28:54 <HackEso> Cambridge Bay (YCB, CYCB) \ Cambridge (CBG, EGSC) \ Cambridge Municipal Airport (CDI, ?)
12:29:11 <fizzie> Although that's quite a few steps to go for your weather.
12:29:11 <Taneb> Cambridge is an international airport with no flights
12:33:17 <wob_jonas> also, I should buy an indoor/outdoor thermometer for home. I'll have some difficulty to place the outdoor sensor properly, but it'll still be better than nothing.
12:35:02 <wob_jonas> fizzie: is there a command that takes the IATA code as input and tells the timezone used for that airport in commercial passenger airport tickets?
12:35:34 <wob_jonas> or a database of such timezone assignments external to HackEso somewherE?
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12:49:44 <fizzie> @tell wob_jonas The share/airports.dat file used by `airport and friends -- from https://openflights.org/data.html -- has the timezone in the 10th column, though the HackEso commands don't use it at the moment.
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12:56:21 <wob_jonas> "Note: Rules for daylight savings time change from year to year and from country to country. The current data is an approximation for 2009, built on a country level. Most airports in DST-less regions in countries that generally observe DST (eg. AL, HI in the USA, NT, QL in Australia, parts of Canada) are marked incorrectly." hmm
12:56:27 <wob_jonas> so basically they don't really know for sure either
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13:20:57 <lambdabot> oerjan said 3d 3h 30m 29s ago: i've assumed Areallycoolusername was A almost from the start, but lately e's putting in so much effort to use both while not confusing them that i was starting to
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13:30:25 <esowiki> [[Blindfolded Arithmetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59373&oldid=58810 * Ais523 non-admin * (-25) not output only, it has input
13:35:00 <esowiki> [[Talk:Unified HQ9+]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=59374 * Ais523 non-admin * (+832) how to HQ9++
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14:09:39 <wob_jonas> Hehe, I just found a list I made in 2007, when M:tG only had five 2/2 vanilla creature cards for 1G (counting by different English names), and five 3/3 vanilla creature cards for 3R. Now it has eight of each.
14:16:23 <wob_jonas> Admittedly one of the three new 2/2 vanillas for 1G is an elf, which could perhaps be more useful than yet another bear.
14:17:09 <wob_jonas> I probably still wouldn't use it, beacuse Elvish Warrior is just so much more useful, and there isn't a lack of good small elves.
14:17:42 <wob_jonas> Still, it's at least more interesting than the bears.
14:20:56 <wob_jonas> The five vanilla bears are because three of them come from Portal and Ice Age, which didn't have reprints for historical reasons, and then they made Runeclaw Bear for a core set with the official excuse that they wanted all creatures to have fantasy names, not the name of real animals.
14:33:05 <esowiki> [[Iterating quine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59375&oldid=59354 * Ais523 non-admin * (+3667) some advice on constructing these (and why they're less impressive than they look)
14:34:25 <esowiki> [[Iterating quine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59376&oldid=59375 * Ais523 non-admin * (+1) /* Constructing an iterating quine */ grammar
14:40:20 <wob_jonas> wow, I inspired ais to write an article
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17:04:55 <ais523> wob_jonas: I'm fed up of people thinking that iterating quines are more impressive than normal quines
17:07:31 <Taneb> ais523: they're exactly as hard but you need to know two languages
17:08:33 <Taneb> So, I guess they're marginally more impressive?
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17:19:44 <int-e> Taneb: they may actually be easier (A Perl -> Brainfuck -> Perl quine is easier than a Brainfuck quine, since one can use a trivial string -> brainfuck converter rather than brainfuck code that somehow replicates its own data section)
17:20:12 <Taneb> int-e: but harder than a perl quine
17:20:27 <Taneb> Because you need to know enough brainfuck or string to brainfuck converters
17:20:40 <Taneb> So it's slightly harder than the easiest language
17:20:58 <Taneb> Or at least the "seed" language
17:21:01 <int-e> yeah, that was my point, basically
17:21:04 <Taneb> But not enough to really be worth it
17:23:46 <int-e> that said I find the 100+ language one impressive... not in principle, but the fact that it fits into 16kb.
17:24:08 <int-e> (though I suspect that some of the intermediate programs are much larger.
17:24:24 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Fuckfukc * New user account
17:25:49 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59377&oldid=59364 * Fuckfukc * (+212) /* Introductions */
17:27:07 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59378&oldid=59341 * Fuckfukc * (-38308) Replaced content with "this is a brainfuck clone so it doesnt deserve a page"
17:33:45 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59379&oldid=59378 * Int-e * (+38308) Undo revision 59378 by [[Special:Contributions/Fuckfukc|Fuckfukc]] ([[User talk:Fuckfukc|talk]]) ... this is the original, not a clone.
17:34:48 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * FuckfukcFuckfukc * New user account
17:36:07 <int-e> "hi, im very interested in esolangs and have created many turing complete simple esolangs, all tape based with 8 instructions" <-- this is a cute introduction though ...
17:37:15 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59380&oldid=59377 * FuckfukcFuckfukc * (+1356)
17:37:48 <esowiki> [[User:Int-e]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59381&oldid=44426 * Int-e * (+14) lower profile
17:37:59 <esowiki> [[Esoteric programming language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59382&oldid=56043 * FuckfukcFuckfukc * (-4414) Replaced content with "An '''esoteric programming language''' (ess-oh-terr-ick), or '''esolang''', is a tape based lang with 8 insturctoins. FffffffFfffff an example of this is fortnite"
17:39:04 <esowiki> [[Esoteric programming language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59383&oldid=59382 * Int-e * (+4414) Undo revision 59382 by [[Special:Contributions/FuckfukcFuckfukc|FuckfukcFuckfukc]] ([[User talk:FuckfukcFuckfukc|talk]]) undo vandalism
17:39:57 <int-e> ais523: this may be worthy of your attention (or possibly fizzie's of the people I can see around)
17:40:03 <ais523> int-e: I'm already on it
17:40:19 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/block]] block * Ais523 * blocked [[User:FuckfukcFuckfukc]] with an expiration time of 1 week (account creation disabled): Inserting nonsense/gibberish into pages
17:40:40 <ais523> almost blocked you by mistake, the buttons to block the person who made the original edit and the person who made the revert are right next to each other
17:41:00 <int-e> Hah. But I think I'd survive that :)
17:41:41 <int-e> ais523: note that they have two users
17:43:24 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/block]] block * Ais523 * blocked [[User:Fuckfukc]] with an expiration time of indefinite (autoblock disabled): alternate account of blocked [[User:FuckfukcFuckfukc]]
17:43:36 <ais523> int-e: was checking it was only two (but as far as I can tell, it is)
17:44:05 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59384&oldid=59380 * Ais523 * (-1356) Reverted edits by [[Special:Contributions/FuckfukcFuckfukc|FuckfukcFuckfukc]] ([[User talk:FuckfukcFuckfukc|talk]]) to last revision by [[User:Fuckfukc|Fuckfukc]]
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17:47:52 <ais523> (by "right next to" I mean on opposite sides of the screen in the same position, so that they're mentally next to each other rather than physically next to each other)
17:48:27 <int-e> Yay for bad UI design.
17:48:43 <b_jonas> ais523: I understand. the impressive part might be installing interpreters for all those 120 or so languages. they don't seem to be chosen in such a way as to be easy to install interpreters, eg. they aren't esolangs with a 2K long reference interpreter in perl and nothing else.
17:49:03 <b_jonas> but sure, I know the quines themselves aren't hard to construct
17:49:14 <ais523> TIO is more impressive on that basis
17:50:33 <int-e> Oh, there is a malbolge quine.
17:50:48 <ais523> b_jonas: https://tio.run/
17:51:10 <ais523> it has links with the esolang community among a few different axes
17:51:21 <b_jonas> oh, that online interpreter
17:52:24 <int-e> (I suppose I knew about the Malbolge prime once upon a time, but I had forgotten. The connection to the discussion above is that a Brainfuck->Malbolge->Brainfuck cyclic quine would be far less impressive.)
17:53:00 <HackEso> The password of the month is "overreachtorridbittenmandible".
17:53:13 <ais523> does the password of the month actually do anything?
17:53:29 <int-e> . o O ( The primes of the year are 3 and 673. )
17:53:45 <int-e> ais523: it's usually changed once per month by somebody...
17:53:55 <int-e> or do you mean this particular one?
17:54:04 <b_jonas> ais523: not as far as I know. I was wondering if there's a joke language where programs only work if they contain a current or recent password of the month in the source code, as a parody to requiring a monthly license to run the program.
17:54:06 <int-e> b_jonas set it, I think.
17:54:09 <ais523> int-e: I mean, does it have any use? despite changing once per month
17:54:26 <ais523> I was wondering if it was some sort of CAPTCHA to something
17:54:27 <int-e> ais523: if you're ever struggling to find a password...
17:54:44 <int-e> ...you can find one here that you should definitely not use.
17:54:50 <ais523> b_jonas: I've considered creating an esolang whose specification requires sending me money in order to run programs (if you didn't do so, the programs would still work, you'd just be violating the specification)
17:55:00 <ais523> as a parody of paid/commercial languages
17:55:16 <int-e> ais523: So, no, there's no real purpose.
17:55:32 <int-e> Beyond a little entertainment, obviously.
17:56:04 <int-e> ais523: isn't that called the Ethereum VM? :P
17:56:30 <ais523> well, in Ethereum there's an actual practical reason for paying for cycles
17:56:40 <b_jonas> the K programming language has a license where if you buy a K license, then you're allowed to distribute K programs with the K interpreter executable bundled with it (they provide some sort of tool for that I assume), but only if the program doesn't expose the K interpreter itself in a form usable to the users
17:56:46 <ais523> (I think I noted a while ago that Ethereum has become the world's biggest nomic, and most successful codenomic)
17:57:11 <b_jonas> the tricky part in this is that K is an essentially interpreted language, so it's easy to write a program that accidentally exposes the K interpreter
17:57:28 <b_jonas> you actually have to be careful if you want to write a program that doesn't expose it, in a security way, and the K language doesn't help you in this
17:57:40 <b_jonas> and I wonder, is it possible to make an esolang that has even more of this property,
17:57:49 <int-e> . o O ( you're still paying for running code that serves no real purpose </sarcasm> )
17:58:05 <b_jonas> that is, one where it's hard to write programs that can't be used as a complete interpreter for the language, but for some interesting reason,
17:58:13 <int-e> (whom am I kidding...) <sarcasm>
17:58:29 <b_jonas> not a trivial reason like how metafont doesn't have a primitive to parse an integer, and Knuth recommends that you use the eval primitive to do that
17:59:45 <b_jonas> and yes, I should write that quine suite thing for the PCG challenge too...
17:59:45 <int-e> b_jonas: so you need plausible deniability if you do expose the interpreter?
17:59:47 <ais523> hmm, is it possible to write a reverse Muriel, somehow? a language where instead of needing to quine for control flow, you need to write a self-interpreter for control flow?
17:59:56 <ais523> that implies a very strange memory model, some sort of streaming system
17:59:58 <int-e> . o O ( deniable plausibility )
18:00:15 <ais523> my guess is no but I'm going to think about it, because if the answer is yes it'd be really interesting
18:00:40 <b_jonas> int-e: dunno, the whole thing seems pointless for _distributing executables_, as opposed to, say, running an interactive service on the internet that works with untrusted input
18:01:37 <b_jonas> ais523: huh? isn't /// the language where you need to write a quine to get control flow?
18:01:54 <ais523> b_jonas: Muriel was the original, I think
18:02:03 <ais523> but quite a few languages have that property
18:02:13 <ais523> (Underload is in a weird space, whether it has that property or not depends on how you interpret the spec)
18:02:16 <b_jonas> and Endo's DNA too, only that one is also designed to make it very easy to write a quine
18:08:16 <b_jonas> ah I see, so Muriel has a built-in quotemeta operator, just like Endo DNA, to make it easier to write a quine, unlike ///
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19:20:43 <orin> oh that reminds me of the theoretical problem I saw: imagne a programming language that only has '' qoutes
19:21:09 <orin> if you only have '' tpye quotes it is impossible to output the ' character
19:22:34 <orin> (i guess you also have to have restrictions on manipulating characters, but it seems easy for a minimalistic language to accidentally have this restriction)
19:24:57 <b_jonas> orin: that depends on how the quotes work. in some languages like (at least some dialects of) SQL and pascal, two apostrophes inside a string means an apostrophe. in others, like BASIC, there's just no way to directly write the delimiter inside a string literal.
19:25:43 <ais523> orin: Underload can't output mismatched parentheses for this reason
19:25:46 <ais523> there's no Underload program that prints (
19:26:52 <b_jonas> mind you, some of those languages also don't allow you to put a newline in a string literal,
19:27:10 <b_jonas> and even perl doesn't allow you to put an unescaped crlf in a string literal, you have to use backslash escapes or some other construction for that
19:28:41 <b_jonas> it's a bit more complicated than that... the crlf gets translated to an lf before perl even parses the string literal, as if it read the source code in crlf mode (but *DATA in binary mode), but you can call eval directly to skip that step
19:29:13 <b_jonas> and the evaled code string can have a string literal with unescaped crlf in it
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22:03:11 <esowiki> [[Unified HQ9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59385&oldid=59370 * Cortex * (-9) /* Examples */
22:06:46 <esowiki> [[Unified HQ9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59386&oldid=59385 * Cortex * (+0) /* Hello, World! */
22:07:50 <esowiki> [[Unified HQ9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59387&oldid=59386 * Cortex * (+0) /* Hello, World! */
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00:53:13 <esowiki> [[Unified HQ9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59388&oldid=59387 * Cortex * (+647)
00:53:31 <esowiki> [[Unified HQ9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59389&oldid=59388 * Cortex * (+6) /* Commands */
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03:26:09 <esowiki> [[QuineLang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=59390 * KrystosTheOverlord * (+607) Created page with "== QUINELANG == ==== Background ==== This language is more or less a joke language, not exactly designed to perform any sort of higher functions, it just makes an especially..."
03:32:23 <esowiki> [[QuineLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59391&oldid=59390 * KrystosTheOverlord * (+414)
03:32:46 <esowiki> [[QuineLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59392&oldid=59391 * KrystosTheOverlord * (-17) /* QUINELANG */
03:39:17 <esowiki> [[QuineLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59393&oldid=59392 * KrystosTheOverlord * (+161)
03:49:17 <esowiki> [[Unified HQ9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59394&oldid=59389 * Cortex * (+46)
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07:44:20 <esowiki> [[Unified HQ9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59395&oldid=59394 * Cortex * (+62) /* Examples */
07:51:20 <orin> In other news, Japan's labor statistics are a cause of a bug on a cobol program, than as described not many people could could debug these days, http://agora-web.jp/archives/2036852.html …
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08:41:39 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59396&oldid=59379 * Cortex * (+1) @Int-e it's a J O K E
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09:47:13 <esowiki> [[SPADE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59397&oldid=59324 * Swampie27782 * (+19)
09:48:40 <esowiki> [[SPADE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59398&oldid=59397 * Swampie27782 * (+22)
09:50:48 <esowiki> [[SPADE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59399&oldid=59398 * Swampie27782 * (+22)
09:51:40 <esowiki> [[SPADE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59400&oldid=59399 * Swampie27782 * (+4)
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12:45:15 <wob_jonas> `bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20190122.html
12:45:16 <HackEso> bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20190122.html: b_jonas
12:47:11 <wob_jonas> reminds me of http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20060810.html
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15:22:35 <esowiki> [[QuineLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59401&oldid=59393 * KrystosTheOverlord * (+22)
15:28:41 <esowiki> [[QuineLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59402&oldid=59401 * KrystosTheOverlord * (-26)
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15:30:19 <esowiki> [[QuineLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59403&oldid=59402 * KrystosTheOverlord * (+25)
15:32:32 <esowiki> [[QuineLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59404&oldid=59403 * KrystosTheOverlord * (+0)
15:42:28 <esowiki> [[Alchemist]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59405&oldid=59337 * BMO * (+706)
15:46:55 <esowiki> [[User talk:BMO]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59406&oldid=59357 * BMO * (+250)
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16:12:40 <xkapastel> > We discovered a simple motion law for moving and interacting self-propelled particles leading to a self-structuring, self-reproducing and self-sustaining life-like system.
16:12:42 <xkapastel> https://www.nature.com/articles/srep37969
16:12:42 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:116: error: parse error on input ‘,’
17:48:11 <esowiki> [[Mom please get me so me zucchini from sho p]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=59407 * Bigmac * (+870) Created page with "'''mom please get me so me zucchini from sho p''' is an imperative, stack-based work-in-progress esoteric programming language with functional elements, designed by User:Big..."
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18:14:53 <imode> xkapastel: heyyy I just saw that video! I wonder if it's turing complete..
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19:23:16 <arseniiv> imode: as we couldn’t have continuous direction changes, the only hope is obviously particles’ real-valued positions, which they maintain when left alone, for some good values of model parameters (like α ∈ πZ the autors mention, or α ∈ πQ, though with small enough denominators to not have to wait too long for a particle to go full circle)
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19:25:19 <arseniiv> could one store an arbitrary amount of information in such a particle’s position?.. No idea. It seems unreal enough, though (but maybe I have no imagination for this thing!)
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19:27:34 <arseniiv> oh, I’ve overgeneralized allowed α values
19:29:02 <arseniiv> when α = τZ, a particle goes in one direction all the time and is locally escaping
19:29:50 <arseniiv> so neither α = πQ is correct, but something something blah blah more or less obvious should be
19:30:49 <arseniiv> the particle would trace various polygons, including a 2-gon when α = π as in the article
19:33:12 <arseniiv> but also obviously this 2-gon is the one of smallest “particle-influencing area”, so maybe it’s priveleged, and higher polygons could hypothetically be used to relay the state somewhere far away
19:33:38 <arseniiv> (but for me, still, I don’t believe)
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21:46:07 <HackEso> con//Cons are small mammals which, shortly after birth, eat two other mammals. They then live on sunlight and grass, until they are finally removed from existence. \ sense//Sense is the ability to understand things. A person with much sense is called a sensei.
21:46:11 <HackEso> 322) <fizzie> You make a fist, shake it at the sky, and shout "why, GNU, why?!" -- that is the standard reportig practice. \ 447) <monqy> the classic "souls have mass" hypothesis
21:54:30 <esowiki> [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59408&oldid=57480 * Joshop * (+1471)
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23:48:26 <kmc> hey everyone, what's up?
23:48:36 <kmc> it's been forever since I was a regular here
23:48:46 <kmc> feel like I've lived seven lifetimes since then
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00:31:53 <kmc> maybe i should enter the IOCCC this year and get my mojo back
00:32:14 <HackEso> kmc: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
00:32:22 <kmc> i feel like the bar is pretty high for an impressive IOCCC submission these days
00:32:27 <kmc> on the other hand, I am also pretty high
00:32:34 <shachaf> Did you see that one recent IOCCC winner?
00:33:04 <shachaf> https://www.ioccc.org/2018/mills/hint.html
00:33:08 <kmc> every now and then I google some random phrase (like "oh god the horping balls") and the #esoteric logs come up and it makes me smile
00:40:06 <kmc> shachaf: that is pretty impressive
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00:55:15 <shachaf> kmc: Also did you see that 256 byte demo?
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05:47:00 <orin> There are animes about people who make anime, but what if the anime they are making is the anime they are in[A
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05:50:35 <Lykaina> programming language i'm working on
05:53:08 <Lykaina> i would appreciate comments
06:42:31 <imode> looks like a virtual machine/assembly language.
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10:12:08 <HackEso> 1269) <b_jonas> (make is an esoteric language) <prooftechnique> b_jonas: Most esolangs I've seen have more comprehensive docs than make
10:41:11 <Lykaina> https://paste.ee/p/L907w is this actually esoteric, and, if not, should i rant about it elsewhere?
10:45:07 <Luciole> pretty sure it'd be on-topic enough!
10:46:00 <Luciole> is it a fantasy machine kinda thing?
10:49:27 <Taneb> Lykaina: unless I'm missing something it doesn't *seem* particularly esoteric
10:51:19 <Lykaina> even if it has it's roots in fourfuck (a brainfuck variant i made)?
10:52:59 <Lykaina> i know, it no longer resembles fourfuck at all
10:54:12 <Lykaina> tbh, i don't know where else to talk about it
10:58:32 <Luciole> do you have anybparticular goal?
10:58:43 <Taneb> It's A-OK to talk about it here but not necessarily to make a wiki article about it?
10:59:02 <Taneb> It's more on topic for the IRC than what we talk about most of the time, anyway
10:59:34 <Luciole> Taneb: that was my thought too
11:02:15 <Taneb> I may have initially misinterpreted Lykaina
11:04:51 <Taneb> Lykaina: I thought you were talking about making an article about it on the wiki
11:05:07 <shachaf> Taneb: Is it fully faithful to the IRC channel, though?
11:05:26 <Taneb> shachaf: I think we both know I'm not the best at working that sort of thing out
11:06:05 <shachaf> Hmm, that wasn't even in this channel
11:06:19 <Lykaina> GADR @0004 CIN @0000 COUT @0000 JIE +00 +00 @0004 STOP
11:08:23 <Lykaina> don't worry, i'm not gonna paste the hello world program into chat
11:12:44 <Lykaina> the code i typed here creates an infinite loop where it will forever read a char from input and then write it to output
11:14:34 <Lykaina> "JIE +00 +00 @0004" would be equal to "JUMP @0004" if I had a JUMP op
11:21:45 <Lykaina> though, if i had remembered to implement LJUMP, i could have just done: CIN @0000 COUT @0000 LJUMP x00 x00 x00 x00 STOP
11:58:09 <esowiki> [[User talk:BMO]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59409&oldid=59406 * Oerjan * (+43) unsigned
11:58:44 <esowiki> [[User talk:BMO]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59410&oldid=59409 * Oerjan * (+0) oops
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14:59:43 <esowiki> [[User:Bigmac]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59411&oldid=59348 * Bigmac * (+80)
15:00:12 <esowiki> [[User:Bigmac]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59412&oldid=59411 * Bigmac * (+44)
15:00:55 <esowiki> [[User:Bigmac]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59413&oldid=59412 * Bigmac * (+0)
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15:17:36 <esowiki> [[Mom please get me so me zucchini from sho p]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59414&oldid=59407 * Bigmac * (+138)
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16:02:37 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59415&oldid=58527 * Galaxtone * (+14529)
16:02:46 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59416&oldid=59415 * Galaxtone * (-14529) Blanked the page
16:04:15 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59417&oldid=59416 * Galaxtone * (+14532)
16:04:24 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59418&oldid=59417 * Galaxtone * (-14532) Blanked the page
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16:56:33 <rain1> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golomb_ruler
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18:15:30 <HackEso> it//It would have been certainly so, but `8ball refused to coöperate. \ farbfeld//zzo38's Farbfeld utilities is a package of command-line programs (with rather strange command-line syntax) for manipulating images in a specific raw format called farbfeld. It's somewhat underdocumented. http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/farbfeld.ui/home
18:15:33 <HackEso> 721) <tswett> ais523: well, Dylan said "hahaha, Lawlabee is running windows", and then Lawlabee said "'cuz it's pretty awesome." <tswett> Except that by "it", Lawlabee was referring to something entirely different. <tswett> So when I added that quote, Lawlabee emotifrowned. \ 456) <itidus20> like i could ask how many "petals" are there on each of the "flowers" on this coffee mug i just made a drink with <itidus20> but that would be NP hard I think
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18:40:52 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover: there certainly was
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19:03:30 <kmc> what's new?
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19:10:56 <oerjan> . o O ( that's a pretty wide question )
19:11:23 <kmc> i haven't been here forever
19:11:28 <kmc> in forever*
19:11:54 <oerjan> well fizzie runs the wiki now
19:12:21 <oerjan> and i just featured the first new language in 5 years.
19:12:35 <oerjan> did we even have featured languages last you were here
19:12:46 <b_jonas> do there exist double credit cards, where two credit cards are put on the same credit-card sized physical card, and you choose from them by rotating it 180 degrees?
19:13:10 <kmc> I think so
19:13:16 <oerjan> also, ais523 and i proved brainfuck is TC with only four brackets in the whole program, that's pretty new
19:13:36 <b_jonas> two pairs of brackets, yeah
19:14:22 <oerjan> (there have been some other similar proofs not that long ago, like nesting depth of 2)
19:15:13 <oerjan> the four brackets require bignums, the nesting depth doesn't (and perhaps requires infinite tape, i don't quite remember)
19:15:56 <b_jonas> if it doesn't require bignums then it must require infinite tape I think
19:16:09 <kmc> oerjan: nice
19:16:21 <kmc> how's the construction work?
19:16:23 <oerjan> also there are a heap of new wiki users, a lot coming from PPCG on stackexchange (and most of them don't come here)
19:17:17 <b_jonas> yeah, the wiki is used as a buffer for a lot of useless nonsense cwritten now, so it's harder to find interesting pages
19:17:34 <b_jonas> best to listen here for what's mentioned
19:17:39 <oerjan> b_jonas: hm right. i just remember vaguely that i wanted a version that used bignums but finite tape, which i guess the most recent result provides
19:18:05 <oerjan> there were also some reversible brainfuck stuffs
19:18:45 <oerjan> kmc: the four bracket thing uses ais523's The Waterfall Model language and compiles it into bf
19:19:01 <int-e> wow, Trajedy is almost 2 years old.
19:19:14 <oerjan> we haven't written up the most simplified version anywhere yet, unless you read irc logs
19:19:54 <oerjan> but my PPCG post is https://cs.stackexchange.com/questions/102363/how-many-pairs-of-brackets-are-sufficient-to-make-brainfuck-turing-complete/102500#102500
19:20:46 <oerjan> the non-written up thing makes away with all the fallback cells except two
19:21:01 <oerjan> and also the modulus requirements
19:21:22 <oerjan> (although we can add _new_ modulus requirements to ensure cells stay non-negative)
19:24:10 <oerjan> oh wait that's not actually PPCG.
19:24:45 <oerjan> it was a cs.SE question that came about because people in PPCG chat wondered if esolangs would be on-topic there
19:25:19 <oerjan> programming puzzles and code golf, codegolf.stackexchange.com
19:25:51 <oerjan> a lot of recent code golf related esolangs come from there
19:26:01 <oerjan> (well, that community)
19:26:51 <oerjan> they actually have a community ad for the esolang wiki
19:28:12 <b_jonas> oerjan: oh? so it was posted by PPCG on CS, as a sort of scope expanding experiment or invasion? nice
19:31:10 <oerjan> trajedy was nice too, a geometric esolang that turned out to be TC in an unexpected (or at least unexpectedly complicated) way
19:33:17 <int-e> I think that one of the things that made Trajedy great is that Jafet's interpreter could produce pretty diagrams.
19:34:05 <oerjan> the depth two nesting proof is at https://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_minus_-#Depth_two_nesting
19:34:20 <oerjan> (it also uses no - commands)
19:38:13 <oerjan> it came about almost as a corollary of me proving Home Row TC, that's a language that's a bit brainfuck-derivative-like but manages to hit a sweet spot of being awkward in just the right way
19:39:28 <oerjan> hm wait, that's not a very new language, although i guess we rediscovered it
19:40:01 <oerjan> oh right it was because of User:A
19:40:22 <oerjan> accidentally causing something worthwhile
19:40:48 <oerjan> (e's responsible for most of the crap pages b_jonas complains about)
19:41:39 <oerjan> in this case, e made a wrong TC proof (one of several), ais523 reverted it, and i then got to thinking about how to do a proper one.
19:43:29 <b_jonas> crap pages startes before A
19:45:13 <b_jonas> technically it depends on how many users are A's aliases
19:45:25 <b_jonas> A and Iamcalledbob are notorious because he alone has posted many
19:45:25 <oerjan> (the wat was for that misspelling)
19:45:42 <b_jonas> but there have been a lot of users creating just one or two bad pages
19:47:10 <b_jonas> and it's usually people who don't seem to know much about non-esotertic programming
19:49:16 <oerjan> i suppose. i don't actually bother to look at many pages that are edited by just one user.
19:49:30 <b_jonas> oerjan: what? not even if that one user is ais?
19:49:45 <oerjan> i said _many_, not _any_
19:49:56 <oerjan> make that "one new user"
19:50:03 <esowiki> [[Mom please get me so me zucchini from sho p]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59419&oldid=59414 * Bigmac * (-3)
19:50:32 <oerjan> . o O ( slightly tempted by that one )
19:51:44 <oerjan> oh right, i already saw it but it's just a stub
19:52:27 <oerjan> disclosure: sometimes i don't read ais523's pages either because his prose is too dense for my brain
19:53:14 <oerjan> you may have noticed i like to use bullet points when i write myself.
19:53:34 <oerjan> which is somewhat ironic since i've never actually used powerpoint
19:53:40 <int-e> Hmm, is that covered under "minor compaction"?
19:53:43 <HackEso> Your omnidryad saddle principal ideal golfing toe-obsessed "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty evil grinch is a punctual expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it.
19:54:23 <int-e> also who needs powerpoint when there's \begin{itemize}?
19:54:36 <kmc> beamer mode 4 lyfe
19:56:05 <oerjan> regarding that, that cs.SE post was the first time i've written significant tex in years
19:56:34 <oerjan> although only for the actual math
20:22:09 <shachaf> whoa, new featured language
20:22:31 <shachaf> You gotta feature it in the topic so people will see.
20:48:34 * oerjan notes arseniiv in the logs pondering some particle stuff in a way that sounds suspiciously like trajedy
20:52:32 <fizzie> I did all my slides with that when I was TAing some machine learning stuff at university.
20:58:46 <arseniiv> oerjan: no no it was a dynamic system linked by xkapastel, search for “We discovered a simple motion law” a bit earlier
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21:31:12 <oerjan> arseniiv: i know it wasn't trajedy, but your ponderings sounded similar to how trajedy is TC
21:33:53 <arseniiv> oerjan: I figured you didn’t think it wasn’t trajedy, but it seemed to be useful to point out what exactly it was and why these questions. :) Actually, it was imode who asked about TCness :D I still doubt it, albeit I didn’t put new thought into that
21:35:56 <arseniiv> ah darn I missed the original context of why you mentioned that thing at all :D
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23:14:29 <esowiki> [[11CORTLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59420&oldid=59358 * Cortex * (+135)
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03:21:25 <dauie_> Hello, All. Does anyone here have experience with packet_mmap by chance?
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04:42:17 <Lykaina> Hi. I'm making a pseudo-asm language I call "Echidna".
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04:48:56 <Lykaina> am i in the right channel?
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04:55:03 <HackEso> #esoteric is the only channel that exists. After monqy left it became slightly off-centër. It's a 7-codimensional hyperenchilada about 30 m (100 ft) across. oerjan seems to be making a lawn in the northern part, but it keeps getting dug up by free ranging moons. Currently located in the Atlantis Exclusion Zone.
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04:58:03 <ais523> Lykaina: I think so, but it isn't very active this time of day
04:58:12 <ais523> many esolangers are European, and it's about 5am UTC
04:58:46 <ais523> do you have any particular goal with your asm, or is this just for practice?
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05:00:30 <ais523> also this channel tends to be a mix of ontopic and offtopic discussion, I prefer the ontopic discussion but not everyone does
05:05:31 <shachaf> Is there an esolang based on string diagrams or some 2-categorical thing like that?
05:05:40 <shachaf> Or maybe just a monoidal categories.
05:05:51 <shachaf> Traced symmetric monoidal categories or whatever.
05:05:59 <shachaf> Some kind of data flow language? I don't know.
05:06:53 <esowiki> [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59421&oldid=59408 * Ais523 * (+595) /* Loop minimalizations */ expand this a bit
05:07:38 <esowiki> [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59422&oldid=59421 * Ais523 * (-27) /* Some considerations */ remove signature line from the artitcle itself; the "anyone can edit" nature of a wiki means that attribution lines tend to get out of date, and the attribution itself is present under the "history" tab
05:08:16 <ais523> shachaf: not sure about /eso/langs, but computer scientists typically try to form categories out of all the programming languages they study
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05:09:32 <shachaf> How about: A language that uses index notation to express function application?
05:09:51 <shachaf> Maybe it would be suitable for something like linear logic? I don't know.
05:10:10 <esowiki> [[11CORTLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59423&oldid=59420 * Ais523 * (+1) /* Hello, World! */ fix; you need a leading 1 to prevent the "print character" instruction being interpreted as a literal
05:10:16 <ais523> the field is called "denotational semantics"
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05:11:03 <shachaf> That's not really what I'm talking about.
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05:16:46 <shachaf> I just really like index notation, man.
05:16:59 <shachaf> I feel like it could be used in interesting ways for things other than multilinear algebra.
05:17:18 <shachaf> Probably not for 2-categories, but some sort of traced symmetric monoidal category or whatever.
05:17:32 <shachaf> The category talk is a red herring, I think.
06:53:22 <esowiki> [[Is anything!]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=59424 * A * (+1398) Save first.
06:54:00 <esowiki> [[Is anything!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59425&oldid=59424 * A * (-4)
06:55:52 <esowiki> [[Is anything!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59426&oldid=59425 * A * (+314)
06:58:08 <esowiki> [[Is anything!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59427&oldid=59426 * A * (+12)
07:01:22 <esowiki> [[Is anything!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59428&oldid=59427 * A * (+151)
07:13:29 <esowiki> [[Is anything!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59429&oldid=59428 * A * (+758)
07:15:07 <esowiki> [[Is anything!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59430&oldid=59429 * A * (+92) /* Conditions */
07:17:57 <esowiki> [[Is anything!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59431&oldid=59430 * A * (+1750) /* Conditions */
07:18:59 <esowiki> [[Is anything!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59432&oldid=59431 * A * (-1525) /* Example programs */
07:20:35 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * A * moved [[Is anything!]] to [[M==]]: My programming language is too complicated.
07:23:31 <esowiki> [[M==]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59435&oldid=59433 * A * (-978)
07:33:27 <esowiki> [[M==]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59436&oldid=59435 * A * (+132)
07:35:08 <esowiki> [[Is anything!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59437&oldid=59434 * A * (-17) Blanked the page
07:39:20 <esowiki> [[M==]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59438&oldid=59436 * A * (+216) a<=b and a>=b
07:40:31 <esowiki> [[M==]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59439&oldid=59438 * A * (+68)
07:50:42 <esowiki> [[M==]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59440&oldid=59439 * A * (+65)
07:51:15 <esowiki> [[M==]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59441&oldid=59440 * A * (-85)
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07:53:55 <esowiki> [[Is anything!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59442&oldid=59437 * A * (+143)
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13:49:26 <wob_jonas> ``` for v in 200 165 120; do ftoc "$v"; done
13:49:27 <HackEso> 200.00°F = 93.33°C165.00°F = 73.89°C120.00°F = 48.89°C
13:51:06 <wob_jonas> ``` for v in 200 165 120; do ftoc "$v"; done
13:51:07 <HackEso> 200.00°F = 93.33°C \ 165.00°F = 73.89°C \ 120.00°F = 48.89°C
13:51:11 <wob_jonas> ``` for v in 200 165 120; do ctof "$v"; done
13:51:12 <HackEso> 200.00°C = 392.00°F \ 165.00°C = 329.00°F \ 120.00°C = 248.00°F
13:52:23 <Lykaina> does anyone have any interest in the asm-like interpreted language i am making in my spare time?
13:52:57 <wob_jonas> (I can only blame myself for these scripts by the way)
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14:19:14 <orin> https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/forum/#!msg/chromium-extensions/veJy9uAwS00/sVWM72KnGgAJ
14:19:17 <orin> They're making a change to google chrome so misguided and anti-user that *amnesty international* is chiming in
14:21:53 <orin> why is google so shit
14:52:24 <int-e> Tricky. Besides the obvious (Google is selling ads, so curtailing ad blockers is... tempting), they have other concerns as well. Security is one of them (huh, I didn't even know that the webRequest API can *redirect* requests; that should be fun in the hands of some people... in fact I may have heard of extensions replacing ads by other ones...), or even more trivial issues like battery lifetime...
14:52:30 <int-e> ...of their devices.
14:53:48 <int-e> It'll be interesting to see what happens to this proposal after the current public outcry.
14:54:18 <wob_jonas> is it worse than when firefox threw away their xul extension api?
14:57:25 <int-e> From the ad blocker perspective? Yes, since the functionality is much restricted. The makers of ublock and umatrix have already written that they cannot work with it.
14:59:04 <wob_jonas> Oh, that reminds me. Can you guys recommend a firefox extension where I can define client-side redirects from URLs to other URLs via some sort of wildcard rules, and I can also easily temporarily disable such a redirect?
15:00:07 <int-e> The main fallout from the XPCOM thing is that Flash is finally dead for good. I'm not sure that I've noticed any fallout from the switch from XUL to WebExtension, though I'm sure that plenty of extensions just were not rewritten.
15:09:46 <orin> wob_jonas: I have flash installed
15:10:50 <int-e> Well it was lingering on in some niches of the web, and kept being used as part of zombie cookie schemes.
15:11:06 <wob_jonas> orin: in a way that it works in the browser? or outside of that?
15:12:25 <wob_jonas> I haven't used flash for a long time. I do occasionally run some java thingies on my machine, because banks and the tax office depend on it, but these are not in my browser.
15:12:29 <int-e> (It's obviously not dead outside of the browsers. There's a plethora of games made with Flash, for example in the point&click puzzle adventure games like Machinarium)
15:12:34 <orin> wob_jonas: I have windows set to open .swf and .flv in flash when I download them
15:13:00 <orin> so, they don't show up in the browser correctly but they still work
15:13:35 <wob_jonas> yes, you're right, it's not dead outside browsers
15:26:01 <int-e> orin: if you want to do a technical comparison: https://developers.chrome.com/extensions/declarativeNetRequest is the new API that is supposed to replace https://developer.chrome.com/extensions/webRequest and the discussion is about the former not being an adequate replacement for the latter in various contexts.
15:30:59 <int-e> AFAIUI, the filters are approximately as powerful as what Adblock+ supports, but even they won't be happy because 30k rules just aren't enough.
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15:32:53 <orin> int-e: yeah, that's my understanding, but the ublock origin devs had some other complaints too
15:36:00 <orin> The Ghostery devs on the other hand said they would file an antitrust lawsuit
15:37:40 <orin> I have to say that I would love to see alphabet chopped into a set of separate companies
15:40:06 <orin> like, in particular, there is a huge conflict of interest with Android and google ad network being made by the same company
15:40:28 <wob_jonas> orin: as in A..I as one company with row 12 punched, then J..R as another company with row 11 punched, then S..Z as a third company with row 10 punched?
15:40:59 <int-e> conflict of interest? https://www.schlockmercenary.com/2000-07-01
15:41:38 <esowiki> [[User:Esofabrv]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=59443 * Esofabrv * (+106) Created page with "Esofabrv alias fabriboi. [https://github.com/fabrv/bf-interpreter I made a BF interpreter and derivative]."
15:42:35 <wob_jonas> int-e: how is that a conflict of interest? they're both interested in the same thing, showing google ads to the users on phone.
15:42:52 <int-e> wob_jonas: did you look at the comic?
15:43:18 <int-e> (or perhaps you're mixing me up with orin)
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16:36:45 <HackEso> olist 1153: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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21:45:33 <esowiki> [[Zull]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=59444 * Cortex * (+972) Created page with "Zull is a joke esolang made by [[User:Cortex|]] in which all code is implied from context. == Commands == {| class="wikitable" |- ! Name !! What it does !! Syntax |- | Magic..."
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01:26:57 <esowiki> [[User:Cortex]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59445&oldid=59362 * Cortex * (+20)
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06:50:58 <esowiki> [[Hexsp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59446&oldid=55873 * Salpynx * (-25) Remove dead-link singleton category
06:53:06 <esowiki> [[Interdemento]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59447&oldid=59262 * Salpynx * (-1) Fix categories
07:26:28 <esowiki> [[Interdemento]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59448&oldid=59447 * Salpynx * (-33) Oh, it's not even functional
07:37:54 <esowiki> [[Cedar--]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59449&oldid=58922 * Salpynx * (+4) Remove another dead-link category and categorise
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07:53:32 <esowiki> [[Css Script]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59450&oldid=55411 * Salpynx * (+47) Better, but probably still incomplete, categories
07:57:21 <esowiki> [[Funge-98]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59451&oldid=56867 * Salpynx * (+0) Category, other 3D languages are grouped under Multi-dimensional
08:07:07 <esowiki> [[Derpcode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59452&oldid=49029 * Salpynx * (-2) It's Implemented
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10:27:11 <zzo38> Another kind of Chaingate would be Chaingate with Collatz
10:31:16 <zzo38> (If Collatz conjecture is true, then I think it will not be Turing complete, because it is always going to halt.)
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11:35:53 <b_jonas> http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/lady-stuff => demon guy is apparently called Bozmodiklax the Vile, and has appeared several times in SMBC
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11:42:09 <b_jonas> specifically https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/why-3 and http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/cleric
11:46:55 <b_jonas> see http://smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=4072 about a different daemon, Hziulquoigmnzhah of Cykranosh, the dread spawn of Cxaxukluth, which is apparently not even originating from SMBC, but from some earlier cthulhu mythology writing
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12:06:29 <esowiki> [[Talk:Chaingate]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59453&oldid=51201 * Int-e * (+1309) oops, the language was mentioned on #esoteric and now I have questions...
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14:18:35 <arseniiv> hey people, what’s with https://esolangs.org/wiki/International_Esolang_Design_Competition ? :)
14:20:02 <arseniiv> also https://esolangs.org/wiki/Incident is ingenious
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18:01:16 <b_jonas> arseniiv: Incident is one of ais523's languages. the CALESYTA thing was a scam, but it deserves to be documented on the wiki so that we don't fall for such a thing the next time.
18:02:06 <b_jonas> it's not the only esolang-related scam, BANCStar could be considered similar
18:17:33 <b_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: see the wiki
18:18:47 <Phantom_Hoover> oh so someone said they'd do something and then didn't do it
18:18:59 <Phantom_Hoover> i wouldn't call that a scam unless they tried to get you to pay for the disk lol
18:24:56 <arseniiv> b_jonas: ah, so that page is in some sense a meta?
18:25:28 <arseniiv> I thought it’s a name for a yet-to be thing
18:28:54 <b_jonas> arseniiv: huh what? what page and what meta?
18:49:18 <arseniiv> b_jonas: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Incident
18:49:40 <arseniiv> b_jonas: https://esolangs.org/wiki/International_Esolang_Design_Competition
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18:52:47 <b_jonas> arseniiv: oh, that's probably a different one
18:52:51 <b_jonas> I was thinking of https://esolangs.org/wiki/CALESYTA
18:53:52 <esowiki> [[International Esolang Design Competition]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59454&oldid=43820 * B jonas * (+32) link CALESYTA
18:55:51 <arseniiv> I want to reinvent synthetic life one more time, but all my ideas are too vague or too hard to implement in short time before it becomes tedious
18:56:33 <arseniiv> or too simplistic to take a real consideration
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19:20:05 <HackEso> Cats are cool, but should be illegal.
19:20:28 <HackEso> imho//IMHO means "In My Holy Omniscience".
19:27:07 <kmc> big beats are the best, get high all the time
19:53:55 <oerjan> arseniiv: that competition page seems to be just something hppavilion threw out on a whim, and no one caught the ball (well, yet anyway)
19:54:31 <oerjan> also we don't know why they gave up on CALESYTA so we don't know that it's a scam.
19:56:57 <esowiki> [[CALESYTA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59455&oldid=50997 * Oerjan * (+4) section headings
19:57:13 <esowiki> [[International Esolang Design Competition]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59456&oldid=59454 * Oerjan * (+0) heading case
19:59:05 <arseniiv> b_jonas> yeah => my cat sends me through her unexistent telepathy that she doesn’t agree
20:00:27 <oerjan> that's just your myxomatosis speaking. wait, that's the wrong disease, never mind.
20:01:23 <oerjan> arseniiv: there were some earlier esolang competitions, at least one of which actually had winners
20:01:46 <arseniiv> do y’all think a formal competition of this sort could make something to those people posting weakscripts and other highly original entries to the wiki?
20:02:17 <arseniiv> uh I meant make something *good* to them (or not, or not)
20:03:31 <oerjan> and anyway, in my heart Incident won anyway
20:04:14 <oerjan> fortunately ais523 got some other use out of it on PPCG
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20:05:09 <arseniiv> I didn’t want to seek what the other entries to CALESYTA were, but in absolute scale it’s one of the coolest I have had to know yet, yeah
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20:08:11 <int-e> . o O ( The less said about them the better? )
20:08:13 <arseniiv> it seems there’s no specific need to make competitions as there are small codegolphing challenges all over, maybe for this reasons no one organizes big contests now?
20:08:47 <arseniiv> fugot, what do you think a dog program should do?
20:09:13 <int-e> fungot: do you know fugot?
20:09:14 <fungot> int-e: an fnord us nought. the results of the local inquiry concluded that president trump to be prevented, and the way the hon. and learned friend the member for high peak, the use of his knowledge, for scotland, the hon. and learned friend the member for great grimsby, the fnord fish shop.
20:09:54 <int-e> `learn Fnord is fungot's most favorite word.
20:09:54 <fungot> int-e: we have not been to a good enough speed-reading course to accomplish. white space system
20:09:56 <HackEso> Relearned 'fnord': Fnord is fungot's most favorite word.
20:10:09 <arseniiv> fungot, I’m sorry to misspell your name, and now I don’t know would you ever answer me in a hearty manner and something something *sobs*
20:10:10 <fungot> arseniiv: it is the first time the issue of all the issues, and i would be more than happy, and more effort to reform the house of lords,
20:10:12 <int-e> relearned, hmmm. oh?
20:10:28 <int-e> `paste wisdom/fungot
20:10:29 <fungot> int-e: i have not. samsung, if i have to shift the transport secretary, the hon. member of this house, including
20:10:29 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/file/tip/wisdom/fungot
20:11:17 <int-e> oerjan: that was yours, feel free to `revert mine
20:11:25 <int-e> it was too subtle for me :)
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20:12:19 <int-e> actually... it was pretty good too
20:12:46 <arseniiv> it is the first time the issue of all the issues, and i would be more than happy, and more effort to reform the house of lords, => darn I feel they haven’t yet really forgiven me inside
20:13:16 <arseniiv> dear fungot, could you ever forgive me, but please tell me the truth
20:13:16 <fungot> arseniiv: it is a question of the money you are spending 52 uk fnord that they enjoy the high-quality standards of an intervention, of professional services to adequately protect the victim to the approach of the hon. and learned friend the minister for not messing with the fundamentals, with higher education institutions, to be possible,
20:13:34 <int-e> ^8ball was that the truth?
20:14:06 <arseniiv> it is a question of the money you are spending => it’s not fair at all. Friendship shouldn’t be correlated with money spent
20:17:14 <arseniiv> …and I bet e. g. lambdabot wouldn’t blackmail me, or at least not so openly
20:19:28 <int-e> > text "yes I won’t"
20:19:42 <int-e> somewhat obscure trick :)
20:20:16 <arseniiv> int-e: I feel I need a lambdabot-specific cheat sheet :D too many commands
20:21:02 <int-e> @run and > are the same. :)
20:21:28 <oerjan> > var $ cycle "var is lazier "
20:21:30 <lambdabot> var is lazier var is lazier var is lazier var is lazier var is lazier var is...
20:21:33 <int-e> But you're not allowed to use IO so 'print' doesn't work.
20:21:47 <lambdabot> "*Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Ex...
20:22:06 <int-e> oerjan: oh. makes sense, I guess. Exp is not exactly on my radar :)
20:22:35 <int-e> > foldl f 0 [1,2,3]
20:22:37 <lambdabot> • Ambiguous type variable ‘a0’ arising from a use of ‘show_M789805931693...
20:22:37 <lambdabot> prevents the constraint ‘(Show a0)’ from being solved.
20:22:40 <int-e> > foldl f 0 [1,2,3] :: Exp
20:22:42 <lambdabot> Not in scope: type constructor or class ‘Exp’
20:22:42 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant ‘Expr’ (imported from Debug.SimpleReflect)
20:22:50 <int-e> > foldl f 0 [1,2,3] :: Expr
20:23:07 <int-e> So little in fact that I even forgot the proper name of the type.
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20:28:56 <int-e> > fix$(0:).scanl(+)1 -- feeling nostalgic
20:28:58 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946,...
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21:03:36 <shachaf> Taneb: are you going to see arcadia in NEWCASTLE-UPON-TYNE twh
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21:34:02 <b_jonas> according to the flavor text of Rotting Legion, zombies have one speed. but then, how can Unstable have a zombie of a different speed?
21:35:22 <zzo38> Maybe it is a different plane?
21:36:00 <b_jonas> yeah, that's possible. I think Unstable is in an entirely new place.
21:40:46 <esowiki> [[@NUM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59457&oldid=59293 * KrystosTheOverlord * (+34)
21:56:10 <arseniiv> int-e: thanks. I even feel maybe you already told me something like that a time ago
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22:22:01 <Taneb> I live in Cambridge now
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22:24:48 <HackEso> zygohistomorphic prepromorphism//A zygohistomorphic prepromorphism is used when you really need both semi-mutual recursion and history and to repeatedly apply a natural transformation as you get deeper into the functor. \ 508) <ais523> oh no, I think we've managed to mix three metaphors in a way that actually makes sense
22:24:48 <HackEso> human//Humans are a species rumored to be a majority in the channel, but evidence seems inconclusive. They are constantly evolving, although not as fast as pokémons. \ 395) <oklofok> god created the natural numbers, the rationals were done by man and the work was finally completed (topologically) by satan himself
22:25:15 <HackEso> betty crocker//Betty Crocker is a notorious gambler. \ 559) <Gregor> When my registrar is emailing me that codu.xxx is available, that's a problem.
22:25:15 <HackEso> thought//. o O ( Why are they asking me what a thought is? ) \ 826) <GreyKnight> headache + train with screeching brakes = headache^2 <hagb4rd> hm..headache + train with no screeching brakes = no head <GreyKnight> On the plus side, no headache anymore
22:28:23 <b_jonas> how much weight can my hon. and learned friend lift? is it more than an Unseen Servant can?
22:28:51 <b_jonas> how much weight can my hon. and learned friend fungot lift? is it more than an Unseen Servant can?
22:28:51 <fungot> b_jonas: the european union
22:31:08 <zzo38> There is no human in this channel; the majority in this channel are the writing of letters/words/numbers/sentences/etc.
22:36:15 <b_jonas> Prestidigitation can lift 1 pound, Mage Hand 5 pounds, Instant Summons 10 pounds, Unseen Servant 20 pounds, Mage's Magnificient Mansion has two servants per caster level and they can each lift 20 pounds,
22:36:34 <b_jonas> but summoning a strong creature that obeys your commands is probably easier than any of these.
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22:44:04 <zzo38> How much can the summoned creature lift?
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22:55:36 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't know. it would depend on how big a creature you can summon. If you can cast fifth level spells, then you can summon a medium earth elemental, which has Str 21, so it can lift 460 pounds. If that's not enough, buff it with Bull's Strength to get 800 pounds.
22:56:25 <b_jonas> No wait, apparently a creature can lift double of their max load, so that's 920 pounds for the elemental, 1600 pounds with the buff.
22:57:29 <b_jonas> zzo38: also, https://media.wizards.com/2019/downloads/MagicCompRules%2020190125.txt updated for Ravnica All
22:58:35 <b_jonas> `fetch https://media.wizards.com/2019/downloads/MagicCompRules%2020190125.txt MagicCompRules_20190125.txt
22:58:36 <HackEso> https:/media.wizards.com/2019/downloads/MagicCompRules%2020190125.txt: No such file or directory
22:58:56 <b_jonas> `fetch share/mtg/MagicCompRules_20190125.txt https://media.wizards.com/2019/downloads/MagicCompRules%2020190125.txt
22:58:58 <HackEso> https://media.wizards.com/2019/downloads/MagicCompRules%2020190125.txt%20: \ 2019-01-26 22:58:57 ERROR 404: Not Found.
22:59:06 <b_jonas> `fetch share/mtg/MagicCompRules_20190125.txt https://media.wizards.com/2019/downloads/MagicCompRules%2020190125.txt
22:59:08 <HackEso> 2019-01-26 22:59:07 URL:https://media.wizards.com/2019/downloads/MagicCompRules%2020190125.txt [709819/709819] -> "share/mtg/MagicCompRules_20190125.txt" [1]
23:00:41 <b_jonas> ``` set -e; cd share/mtg; iconv -f cp1252 -t utf-8 MagicCompRules_20190125.txt | tr -d \\r > rules.txt
23:00:58 <b_jonas> ``` grep effective share/mtg/rules.txt
23:00:59 <HackEso> These rules are effective as of January 25, 2019. \ A keyword ability that causes damage dealt by an object to be especially effective. See rule 702.2, "Deathtouch." \ Myriad is a triggered ability that effectively lets a creature attack in all possible directions. See rule 702.115, "Myriad." \ These rules are effective as of January 25, 2019.
23:01:12 <b_jonas> zzo38: download it for yourself too
23:01:41 <b_jonas> and yeah, I should get back to downloading the oracle and scryfall...
23:02:10 <zzo38> Yes, I will download it now
23:03:41 <zzo38> Finally they changed it to ASCII.
23:05:35 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59458&oldid=59296 * Cortex * (+19) /* Example-based languages */
23:06:46 <b_jonas> ``` perl -ne '/[^ -~\r\n]/ and print' mtg/share/MagicCompRules_20190125.txt
23:06:46 <HackEso> Can't open mtg/share/MagicCompRules_20190125.txt: No such file or directory.
23:06:54 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59459&oldid=59458 * Cortex * (+19)
23:07:08 <b_jonas> ``` perl -ne '/[^ -~\r\n]/ and print' share/mtg/MagicCompRules_20190125.txt
23:07:09 <HackEso> 700.8a One card (City in a Bottle) refers to permanents and cards with a name originally printed in the Arabian Nights(tm) expansion. Those names are Abu Ja'far, Aladdin, Aladdin's Lamp, Aladdin's Ring, Ali Baba, Ali from Cairo, Army of Allah, Bazaar of Baghdad, Bird Maiden, Bottle of Suleiman, Brass Man, Camel, City in a Bottle, City of Brass, Cuombajj Witches, Cyclone, Dancing Scimitar, Dandn, Desert, Desert Nomads, Desert Twister, Diamond Valley, Drop
23:07:19 <b_jonas> ^ that one rule has some non-ascii card names
23:08:14 <esowiki> [[Hell69]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59460&oldid=59019 * Cortex * (+34)
23:09:04 <zzo38> OK, now I see that
23:10:00 <b_jonas> in fact, I think they changed the encoding from cp1252
23:10:04 <b_jonas> but what the heck it is now?
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23:11:03 <zzo38> Maybe PC character set.
23:11:43 <b_jonas> so the card name should be Dandân, and the file has Dand\x{83}n
23:12:08 <zzo38> (I don't know why they don't just change it to ASCII, but it is consistent with being PC character coding.)
23:12:21 <b_jonas> oh, and it has Juz\x{A0}m Djinn, so it's probably a cp437-derived one
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23:12:35 <b_jonas> presumably cp437 or cp850, let me try
23:15:47 <b_jonas> yeah, either cp437 or cp850 works, it has only three different non-ascii characters
23:17:00 <b_jonas> so let's call it cp850 because that has more letters and less line-drawing stuff
23:17:05 <b_jonas> so more useful for M:tG character names
23:18:25 <b_jonas> not that it matters much for M:tG, they haven't done a Portugese plain yet
23:21:03 <b_jonas> ``` set -e; cd share/mtg; iconv -f cp850 -t utf-8 MagicCompRules_20190125.txt | tr -d \\r > rules.txt
23:21:47 <b_jonas> ``` perl -ne '/.{5}[^ -~\r\n].*/ and print $&' share/mtg/MagicCompRules_20190125.txt
23:21:48 <HackEso> Dandn, Desert, Desert Nomads, Desert Twister, Diamond Valley, Drop of Honey, Ebony Horse, Elephant Graveyard, El-Hajjj, Erg Raiders, Erhnam Djinn, Eye for an Eye, Fishliver Oil, Flying Carpet, Flying Men, Ghazbn Ogre, Giant Tortoise, Guardian Beast, Hasran Ogress, Hurr Jackal, Ifh-Biff Efreet, Island Fish Jasconius, Island of Wak-Wak, Jandor's Ring, Jandor's Saddlebags, Jeweled Bird, Jihad, Junn Efreet, Juzm Djinn, Khabl Ghoul, King Suleiman, Kir
23:23:00 <b_jonas> ``` perl -ne '/.{5}[^ -~\r\n].*/ and print $&' share/mtg/rules.txt
23:23:01 <HackEso> Dandân, Desert, Desert Nomads, Desert Twister, Diamond Valley, Drop of Honey, Ebony Horse, Elephant Graveyard, El-Hajjâj, Erg Raiders, Erhnam Djinn, Eye for an Eye, Fishliver Oil, Flying Carpet, Flying Men, Ghazbán Ogre, Giant Tortoise, Guardian Beast, Hasran Ogress, Hurr Jackal, Ifh-Biff Efreet, Island Fish Jasconius, Island of Wak-Wak, Jandor's Ring, Jandor's Saddlebags, Jeweled Bird, Jihad, Junún Efreet, Juzám Djinn, Khabál Ghoul, King Suleima
23:24:05 <b_jonas> ``` perl -ne '/Suleim.*/ and print $&' share/mtg/rules.txt
23:24:07 <HackEso> Suleiman, Brass Man, Camel, City in a Bottle, City of Brass, Cuombajj Witches, Cyclone, Dancing Scimitar, Dandân, Desert, Desert Nomads, Desert Twister, Diamond Valley, Drop of Honey, Ebony Horse, Elephant Graveyard, El-Hajjâj, Erg Raiders, Erhnam Djinn, Eye for an Eye, Fishliver Oil, Flying Carpet, Flying Men, Ghazbán Ogre, Giant Tortoise, Guardian Beast, Hasran Ogress, Hurr Jackal, Ifh-Biff Efreet, Island Fish Jasconius, Island of Wak-Wak, Jandor's Ri
23:24:24 <b_jonas> ``` perl -ne '/King Suleim.*/ and print $&' share/mtg/rules.txt
23:24:24 <HackEso> King Suleiman, Kird Ape, Library of Alexandria, Magnetic Mountain, Merchant Ship, Metamorphosis, Mijae Djinn, Moorish Cavalry, Nafs Asp, Oasis, Old Man of the Sea, Oubliette, Piety, Pyramids, Repentant Blacksmith, Ring of Ma'rûf, Rukh Egg, Sandals of Abdallah, Sandstorm, Serendib Djinn, Serendib Efreet, Shahrazad, Sindbad, Singing Tree, Sorceress Queen, Stone-Throwing Devils, Unstable Mutation, War Elephant, Wyluli Wolf, and Ydwen Efreet.
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23:26:47 <esowiki> [[Talk:Chaingate]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59461&oldid=59453 * Ais523 * (+948) r to int-e
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23:35:54 <esowiki> [[User:U ndefined]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59462&oldid=56319 * Salpynx * (+2) Undo revision 56319 by [[Special:Contributions/U ndefined|U ndefined]] Incorrect DISPLAYTITLE use, only caps and space->underscore changes valid
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23:37:20 <esowiki> [[Hell69]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59463&oldid=59460 * Salpynx * (-34) Undo revision 59460 by [[Special:Contributions/Cortex|Cortex]] ([[User talk:Cortex|talk]]) Incorrect DISPLAYTITLE use, only caps and space->underscore changes are valid, language could have easily been Hell, but isn't
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23:44:45 <esowiki> [[Quantum brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59464&oldid=54249 * Salpynx * (+31) use currently unused category page
23:46:01 <esowiki> [[Quantum Dimensions]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59465&oldid=41881 * Salpynx * (+30) use existing Quantum category
23:48:53 <esowiki> [[Expandable Quantum Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59466&oldid=8576 * Salpynx * (+212) add categories
23:49:22 <int-e> I don't understand ais523.
23:53:08 <esowiki> [[Quantum INTERCAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59467&oldid=58458 * Salpynx * (+56) categories
23:55:48 <esowiki> [[Semi-quantum]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59468&oldid=42143 * Salpynx * (+77) categories
23:56:40 <int-e> Oh it says "or infinity". Sigh.
23:58:29 <esowiki> [[SoT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59469&oldid=20770 * Salpynx * (+31) this has a quantum element too
00:03:34 <esowiki> [[Category talk:Data structures]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59470&oldid=17335 * Salpynx * (+354)
00:05:42 <esowiki> [[Talk:Chaingate]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59471&oldid=59461 * Int-e * (+189) sigh
00:09:06 <esowiki> [[Category talk:Data structures]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59472&oldid=59470 * Salpynx * (+1) REQUEST FOR DELETION (unused dupe category)
00:17:08 <esowiki> [[Esoteric Verilog]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59473&oldid=57478 * Salpynx * (+31) idea with quantum elements
00:26:31 <esowiki> [[Billiard ball machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59474&oldid=37130 * Salpynx * (+31) not 100% sure about a Quantum categorisation (for the gates), maybe it is simply reversible?
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03:57:28 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Category:Data structures]]": stub category created in 2005 and never used; currently [[Category:Data Types and Structures]] is used instead
04:14:31 <zzo38> In UNIX there is fork() and vfork() functions to create a new process. However, one thing that might seem to me that you might want to use without having to copy the memory is a function that is similar to vfork() in that it suspends the parent and shares memory, but registers (including the program counter and stack pointer) are also shared. If execve() is called and succeeds, it returns zero to the parent.
04:16:12 <zzo38> (The child can set up file descriptors and whatever is needed, including possibly variables in the parent process (such as storing the process ID), before calling another program.)
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04:26:39 <imode> a cellular automaton is just a lattice of queue automata with queue sizes of 1.
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04:59:33 <imode> hyperedges in a graph can be seen as queue automata that share a single queue between them.
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09:04:26 <esowiki> [[Chicken]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59475&oldid=58532 * Cortex * (+207)
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10:45:11 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59476&oldid=58666 * Salpynx * (+2776) /* Funciton */ Celebrate the featured language!
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11:18:20 <rain1> what about a fork where nothing is shared
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11:45:53 <esowiki> [[Kolmogorov]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59477&oldid=23604 * Salpynx * (+136) /* External resources */
11:59:06 <arseniiv> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Kolmogorov_machine ← wow, didn’t heard about these
12:01:39 <rain1> "Real" Kolmogorov machines have never been tried
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12:53:27 <b_jonas> `bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20190126.html
12:53:28 <HackEso> bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20190126.html: b_jonas
12:54:36 <b_jonas> `ehlist http://eheroes.smackjeeves.com/comics/2738898/shes-a-real-knockout/
12:54:37 <HackEso> ehlist http://eheroes.smackjeeves.com/comics/2738898/shes-a-real-knockout/: b_jonas
12:59:39 <b_jonas> zzo38: oh, and I don't think the comprehensive rules was chosen to be going to ASCII as such. my guess is that they get the plain text version by saving the doc version from MS Word, and that has three options for saving in plain text: save in locale-dependent windows encoding, locale-dependent DOS encoding, and UTF-16. They chose the wrong one.
12:59:57 <b_jonas> I'm guessing this because at least once they put the wrong date in the filename, while the body still told the right date.
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14:08:46 <b_jonas> ok, so "poultry" and "domestic fowl" are both general terms for certain birds that are and kept captive by humans for farming, typically domestic versions of chicken, turkey, goose and duck, and peacock.
14:10:15 <b_jonas> the new part of this to me is that "poultry" is a term that can be used for the live birds. I assumed for some reason that it referred to only the food parts (meat, liver, bone, etc) of killed birds, like "pork" and "beef" and "veal".
14:10:58 <b_jonas> that's good, that means english doesn't actually have separate terms for the food parts of every common animal
14:11:09 <b_jonas> I mean, of every animal that's commonly used as food
14:11:37 <b_jonas> there's still "venison" for food made of any kind of deer, mind you
14:13:33 <b_jonas> the primary meaning of "fowl" is also apparently the domesticated version of these birds, though it has other meanings which is why "domesticated fowl" exists, so there's still two words that seem redundant to each other
14:15:09 <b_jonas> this actually seems to make sense historically
14:17:07 <b_jonas> http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2015-03-20.2284.html quotes a dialog from Sir Walter Scott explaining how "swine" and "ox" are germanic words used for pigs and cows by the peasants who raise them, but "pork" and "beef" are the french words by the noblemen who eat them
14:18:59 <b_jonas> for the birds too, "fowl" is the germanic words used by the peasants who raise the birds, and "poultry" by the noblemen, only there the distinction is not so sharp, the peasants do sometimes eat poultry and the noblemen are more likely to encounter living fowl or hunt on wild birds that's pretty similar to it, sometimes even the same species, much more similar than boar and deer are to pig and ox
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19:50:09 <esowiki> [[@NUM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59478&oldid=59457 * KrystosTheOverlord * (+52)
19:50:10 <zzo38> b_jonas: You are probably correct it was not meant to be ASCII and they may have made such a mistake. (Although my opinion is they ought to make it ASCII)
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21:27:20 <esowiki> [[Kolmogorov]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59479&oldid=59477 * Salpynx * (+155) /* External resources */ archived website, but interpreter not captured :(
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21:29:46 <esowiki> [[Zucchini]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59480&oldid=36683 * Salpynx * (+26) /* Implementation */ Archived source
21:31:14 <esowiki> [[Kolmogorov machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59481&oldid=58728 * Salpynx * (+16) /* See Also */ add link to Kolmogorov esolang
21:35:24 <esowiki> [[Funciton]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59482&oldid=59352 * Salpynx * (+43) /* Example programs */ add link to the Truth-machine I wrote
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21:47:04 <HackEso> Mirrors are interdimensional portals that only grant access to vampires.
21:49:02 <esowiki> [[TURKEY BOMB]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59483&oldid=20290 * Salpynx * (+25) /* External resources */ I don't even... Fix deadlink, was referenced on [[Talk:TIB_and_STIB]]
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22:40:40 <esowiki> [[Kolmogorov machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59484&oldid=59481 * Salpynx * (+25) /* External resources */ found the article on wayback
22:48:12 <esowiki> [[Kolmogorov machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59485&oldid=59484 * Salpynx * (+74) /* External resources */
22:51:41 <esowiki> [[Kolmogorov machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59486&oldid=59485 * Salpynx * (+5) /* External resources */ correct wiki pointer machine link
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02:00:50 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * IFcoltransG * New user account
02:04:28 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59487&oldid=59384 * IFcoltransG * (+215) IFcoltransG added
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04:39:14 <Lykaina> https://www.dropbox.com/s/eamsv2p2vi48u9y/ECH0005%20Documentation%20-%20Google%20Docs.pdf?dl=0 What do you think?
04:39:18 <Lykaina> i made an asm-like programming language
04:39:23 <Lykaina> you are welcome to comment if you understand it
04:39:55 <Lykaina> i have nowhere else to turn for advice
04:52:57 <pikhq_> Doesn't seem especially odd.
04:54:39 <Lykaina> remember, it's (C) <insert Lykaina's real name>
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07:37:32 <zzo38> Making all transparent pixels in a PNG file black (but still transparent) is not always optimal. But what will be more optimal? For example, the Infogalactic logo does not use all black transparent pixels, and making them black makes the compression worse.
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11:11:45 <rain1> i guess the aim would be to bleed outwards from the non-transparent colors into the transparent region in "basic shapes" that are easy to compress
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12:33:48 <wob_jonas> zzo38: well, you already give the user the choice to change all transparent pixels black or keep their color. so does the PNG export dialog in GIMP. that should be good enough.
12:34:18 <wob_jonas> as for what compresses well, I think it would help much more if we had better algorithms to choose a good 256 color palette
12:35:06 <wob_jonas> but I don't know how to make a good one. I couldn't make a good one even if it was allowed to be slow.
12:41:21 <esowiki> [[Yeah!]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=59488 * A * (+689) Created page with "[[Yeah!]] is an [[esoteric programming language]] that is basic. It is created by [[User:A]]. You can only implement fork bombs and initialize variables as its original value...."
12:42:27 <myname> would i want to write a thesis about the separating word problem?
12:42:29 <esowiki> [[Yeah!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59489&oldid=59488 * A * (+132)
12:42:41 <esowiki> [[Yeah!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59490&oldid=59489 * A * (+0)
12:44:31 <wob_jonas> why isn't there something like preadv/pwritev that can scatter-gather on both sides, so you give both file offsets (for seekable file) and memory addresses for each chunk?
12:44:40 <wob_jonas> could be useful for a database engine
12:48:40 <wob_jonas> Meh, I guess it doesn't matter anymore, CPUs and OSes together are just solving fast system calls anyway.
13:23:13 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59491&oldid=59476 * Salpynx * (+129) /* Eodermdrome */
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13:40:28 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59492&oldid=59115 * Salpynx * (+157) /* Eodermdrome */
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18:23:25 <esowiki> [[ElemScript]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=59493 * Areallycoolusername * (+191) Created page with "[[Elemscript]], is an [[esoteric programming language]] made by [[User: Areallycoolusername|Areallycoolusername]]. All commands are carried out using the atom formulas for dif..."
18:23:42 <esowiki> [[ElemScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59494&oldid=59493 * Areallycoolusername * (+9)
18:23:54 <esowiki> [[ElemScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59495&oldid=59494 * Areallycoolusername * (+1)
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20:32:51 <esowiki> [[Conway's Game of Life]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=59496 * ZM * (+26) Creating redirect
20:48:28 <HackEso> nak// \ 55) <fax> im the worst person in the world
20:48:28 <HackEso> pico//pico is the useless twin of nano. \ 308) <elliott> sgeo do you actually know what sex looks like i am just checking here <Sgeo> I think so
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21:14:46 <oerjan> so if i understand explainxkcd for today correctly, donald trump is a time traveller hth
21:15:34 <HackEso> hth ([ʰtʰh̩]) is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous.
21:27:40 <myname> dauie: you must be new here
21:51:23 <HackEso> tdh is the past tense of a successful hth. hth.
22:00:59 <HackEso> dauie: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
22:01:08 <int-e> . o O ( `learn Shannon invented the noisy channel. It was later implemented in ircd. )
22:01:13 <HackEso> Shannon forbade non mathematically minded people from reading his research papers. Taneb invented it.
22:01:26 <FireFly> (this channel isn't always 50% botnoise)
22:01:39 <fungot> int-e: i can do no better than to start the work of fnord, their trust, the effect, real people, a substantial sum of the governments analysis, points of point-scoring, but
22:02:00 <int-e> FireFly: tbf we can be noisy without the bots as well.
22:03:42 <HackEso> 8423:2016-06-09 <b_jonäs> learn Shannon forbade non mathematically minded people from reading his research papers. Taneb invented it.
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22:05:47 <oerjan> that "it" makes no grammatical sense. which is of course pretty much standard b_jonas ...
22:06:31 <oerjan> . o O ( at least he didn't call Shannon "her" )
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22:08:54 <oerjan> @ask b_jonas Have you ever got into a flame war because of making a pronoun error twh
22:10:07 <oerjan> fungot: please don't start the work of fnord, you'll doom us all.
22:10:07 <fungot> oerjan: is the hon. member to have a helicopter, and has to be a military point of view, to the question, and the many people in this dreadful problem that the hon. and learned friend the member for south east cornwall,
22:13:10 <dauie> FireFly: Thanks for the hospitality :)
22:14:05 <int-e> wtf is this: https://s3.tradingview.com/x/x4PGDlCP_mid.png
22:15:32 * int-e is looking at all the xkcd #2101 imitations at https://www.tradingview.com/symbols/BTCUSD/ but this one looks most ridiculous of them all so far.
22:52:36 <oerjan> int-e: clearly someone is trying to use bitcoins to summon something hth
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23:50:24 <esowiki> [[Talk:Eodermdrome]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59497&oldid=39343 * Salpynx * (+1086) examples: self describing finite loops using the default graph
23:51:19 <kmc> shachaf: how goes it?
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00:10:29 <esowiki> [[ElemScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59498&oldid=59495 * Arseniiv * (-26) [1] no need in plain links to itself, [2] user page links should be explicit, by starting with User:, [3] really please elaborate what you mean there
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00:27:56 <kmc> refusing to let time pass?
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00:57:38 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * EsoLangUser11 * New user account
01:16:03 <shachaf> Do you know any type systems or whatevers that are really linear, not just affine?
01:20:46 <shachaf> Taking the string diagram thing I was thinking about, maybe it'd look like this: Every "function" has some number of input arguments and some number of output arguments, and you have to use each output exactly once.
01:21:39 <shachaf> Maybe you can use uppercase for output and lowercase for input or something.
01:22:25 <shachaf> Seems a bit like a logic language?
01:22:44 <shachaf> The way you can compose things in general is to create new variables for the intermediate values.
01:23:34 <shachaf> Say you have add which has two inputs and one output. You could write something like "add(a, b, X) add(x, c, R)"
01:23:45 <shachaf> Which has three inputs and one output, a,b,c,R
01:24:15 <shachaf> For data/comonoids, you have dup(x, Y, Z) and del(x)
01:25:15 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Something Fawful * New user account
01:25:22 <shachaf> Or maybe it's just dup(x, ...) which lets you produce zero or more copies of the input.
01:26:37 <shachaf> Anyway you have to use each variable exactly once each of lowercase and uppercase.
01:30:33 <shachaf> ski: Seems similar to the mode thing you were talking about the other day, though I think that's not linear.
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02:19:01 <esowiki> [[@NUM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59499&oldid=59478 * KrystosTheOverlord * (+10)
02:24:52 <esowiki> [[@NUM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59500&oldid=59499 * KrystosTheOverlord * (-10)
02:46:38 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59501&oldid=59487 * Something Fawful * (+313) /* Introductions */
02:51:30 <esowiki> [[User talk:TuxCrafting]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59502&oldid=49876 * Sigfb05 * (+661)
02:55:43 <esowiki> [[@NUM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59503&oldid=59500 * KrystosTheOverlord * (+3628)
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03:17:06 <esowiki> [[@NUM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59504&oldid=59503 * KrystosTheOverlord * (+15)
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05:24:28 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59505&oldid=58016 * FSHelix * (+306) /* Divmod algorithm */
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09:41:32 <HackEso> Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Klein bottles, string diagrams, linear logic, the reals, Lambek's lemma, Curry's paradox, Stone spaces, algebraic geometry, locales, and histograms.
09:41:54 <shachaf> Taneb: You invented string diagrams, maybe you have some idea? This seems pretty neat.
09:42:08 <shachaf> What kind of weird category is this?
09:42:28 <Taneb> What kind of weird category is what?
09:44:32 <Taneb> Is it a dagger compact category?
09:45:25 <shachaf> So if you have to be explicit about all inputs and outputs, you might write "f(x) = g(h(x))" as f(x,Z) = f(x,Y) g(y,Z)
09:46:50 <Taneb> f(x,Z) = g(x,Y) h(y,Z)?
09:47:26 <Taneb> Well, it definitely feels like a category, I'll start with that
09:47:26 <shachaf> This just corresponds to connecting up strings. Every name must be used twice, once as input (lowercase) and once as output (uppercase).
09:47:52 <shachaf> Except for the ones that are used only once, which are the inputs and outputs to the thing you're defining.
09:48:14 <shachaf> Of course, what do you do when you have something more complicated than composition?
09:48:47 <shachaf> Say you have a sum type that you want to match on.
09:49:10 <shachaf> Do you use something like +, like with tensors?
09:49:42 <shachaf> You could say that some operators can be used in multiple modes. For example cons(x,xs,L) constructs a list, and cons(X,XS,l) matches on a list.
09:50:25 <Taneb> Maybe everything winds up reversible like that?
09:50:45 <Taneb> Depends on your primitives, of course
09:50:59 <shachaf> Then maybe you can write: append(l,ys,ZS) = ( cons(X, XS, l) cons(x, tmp, ZS) append(xs, ys, TMP) ) + ( nil(l) id(ys,ZS) )
09:51:13 <rain1> f(x,Z) = g(x,Y) h(y,Z)
09:51:20 <rain1> how does this work
09:51:23 <shachaf> In "e1 + e2", e1 and e2 must have the same free variables in the same modes.
09:51:34 <rain1> an n-arg function becomes an n+1 arg function
09:51:38 <rain1> and the extra arg is the output
09:52:01 <rain1> so f(x,Z) = g(x,Y) h(y,Z) means f(x) = h(g(x))
09:52:40 <rain1> so this is just prolog!
09:52:52 <shachaf> It's pretty prology the way I'm describing it.
09:53:20 <shachaf> Of course, I think it's more interesting when the things you're dealing with aren't just data (i.e. not comonoids).
09:53:38 <shachaf> So you can't just drop a thing. You must use it exactly once in general.
09:54:46 <shachaf> For example, if you're using this to talk about (multi)linear algebra, you might write f(X,Y) to represent f being a (2,0)-tensor
09:57:18 <shachaf> int-e: got any good chains of block i can get in on twh
09:59:13 <shachaf> Anyway maybe it is prolog-related. What's the category theory of prolog?
10:01:36 <int-e> shachaf: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/01/belgian-artist-rescued-from-installation-representing-inescapable-burden-of-history is a pretty good example
10:02:25 <int-e> (unfortunately I didn't find any actual block chains... I would have expected that linked concrete blocks would make a good barricade. maybe I should have used "linked" as a keyword in my search)
10:03:08 <lambdabot> Local time for int-e is Tue Jan 29 11:03:07 2019
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10:09:04 <shachaf> Hmm, maybe an alternative would be producing
10:09:24 <shachaf> one output for each summand, or something?
10:09:38 <shachaf> I don't think that'd work, if you only have one tensor.
10:11:03 <shachaf> For handling a summand, you could have something like:
10:11:33 <arseniiv> (oh, tensors here! I should see the logs)
10:11:55 <shachaf> They're not tensor tensors yet but I hope to connect them.
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10:12:58 <shachaf> Say you have e.g. data Blah = Left String | Right Int; foo (Left s) = length s; foo (Right x) = twice x
10:13:25 <shachaf> That might turn into something like
10:14:24 <shachaf> foo(b, OUT) = left(b, S) length(s, OUT) + right(b, X) twice(x, OUT)
10:15:13 <shachaf> Oh, I was thinking of something like: foo(b, OUT) = blah(b, L, R) length(l, OUT) twice(r, OUT)
10:15:17 <shachaf> But of course that doesn't work at all.
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10:15:50 <rain1> how about f(a,b,c:x,y) instead of lower/uppercase
10:16:36 <shachaf> Not sure about the exact syntax yet. I'm trying to match index notation with upper/lower indices.
10:17:21 <shachaf> It's important (?) that every letter is used once as input and once as output. Is there a Prolog variant that does that?
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10:21:13 <shachaf> If you have a traced monoidal category, you can implement something like recursion with something like foo(x,X)
10:24:33 <shachaf> Of course for single-output things you could support a shorthand like f(g(x))
10:24:58 <shachaf> This is more interesting for things with nontrivial graphs.
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10:43:01 <shachaf> So, presumably true(X) true(x) is just 1
10:43:08 <shachaf> Not sure how the scalars work here exactly.
10:43:21 <shachaf> A scalar is a thing with no inputs and no outputs.
10:43:28 <shachaf> Is there a good meaning for something like (left(a, X) + left(b, X)) ?
10:43:35 <shachaf> Is it just backtracking or something?
10:53:26 <shachaf> whoa, this is literally prolog
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11:56:10 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=59506 * A * (+268) Save
12:05:07 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59507&oldid=59506 * A * (+730)
12:05:37 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59508&oldid=59507 * A * (+3)
12:10:01 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59509&oldid=59508 * A * (+444)
12:15:01 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59510&oldid=59509 * A * (+499) /* Setting variables */
12:15:37 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59511&oldid=59510 * A * (+31) /* Other operators */
12:18:20 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59512&oldid=59511 * A * (+86) /* Other operators */
12:19:04 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59513&oldid=59512 * A * (-10)
12:19:44 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59514&oldid=59513 * A * (-68) /* Documentation (actually a tutorial) */
12:20:22 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59515&oldid=59514 * A * (+41) /* =Hello world */
12:20:32 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59516&oldid=59515 * A * (-8) /* Hello World! program */
12:24:44 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59517&oldid=59516 * A * (+162) /* Other operators */
12:27:23 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59518&oldid=59517 * A * (+51)
12:27:46 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59519&oldid=59518 * A * (-6)
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13:37:38 <wob_jonas> oerjan: I blame izabera https://esolangs.org/logs/2016-06-09.html#lNl
13:39:52 <wob_jonas> oerjan: not really a flamewar yet, but there were short exchanges where other people claimed that I make certain pronoun errors for certain deliberate purposes
13:40:08 <wob_jonas> oerjan: as for this case, I think I just wrote "Taneb invented it." because so many wisdoms say that
13:40:45 <wob_jonas> ``` grep -RlF "Taneb invented it." wisdom
13:40:46 <HackEso> wisdom/bbc \ wisdom/sand \ wisdom/diagram chasing \ wisdom/sanity \ wisdom/taneb consistency \ wisdom/shannon \ wisdom/this sentence
13:40:51 <HackEso> The BBC is the BreadBox Corporation. Its inventions include, without limitation, Muppets, tiny elfs, villages in Norway, and inventors of all things. Taneb invented it.
13:40:52 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
13:40:56 <HackEso> Sanity is the defining property of boily. Taneb invented it.
13:41:02 <HackEso> Diagram chasing is a technique used to prove integer lemmas. Taneb invented it.
13:41:04 <HackEso> Sand is what microprocessors are made of. Taneb invented it.
13:43:04 <wob_jonas> Hmm, not that many apparently. Only like four.
13:44:19 <Taneb> Using "it" to refer to a person in English is incorrect and prone to cause offense in virtually all circumstances
13:45:20 <Taneb> Even if they're a person I invented
13:45:35 <wob_jonas> Taneb: I'm not sure if it's supposed to refer to a person there.
13:45:39 <HackEso> Shannon forbade non mathematically minded people from reading his research papers. Taneb invented it.
13:45:48 <Taneb> wob_jonas: it reads to me as referring to Shannon himself
13:45:50 <wob_jonas> It probably refers to the research papers
13:46:16 <HackEso> Taneb consistency is a consistency that is weaker than all other consistencies. Taneb invented it.
13:46:21 <wob_jonas> or perhaps refers to the idea of forbidding non-mathematically minded people from reading papers
13:46:48 <wob_jonas> Hmm, and one of them is probably mine
13:46:53 <HackEso> It would have been certainly so, but `8ball refused to coöperate.
13:47:02 <wob_jonas> ``` hg cat -r 8422 wisdom/it | tail -n+2
13:47:26 <wob_jonas> ^ That was me too, and it may have been another inappropriate use of "it"
13:48:03 <Taneb> `? learn Shannon forbade non mathematically minded people from reading his resarch papers. Taneb invented Shannon, his research papers, and Shannon's prohibition.
13:48:06 <HackEso> learn Shannon forbade non mathematically minded people from reading his resarch papers. Taneb invented Shannon, his research papers, and Shannon's prohibition.? ¯\(°_o)/¯
13:48:08 <Taneb> `learn Shannon forbade non mathematically minded people from reading his resarch papers. Taneb invented Shannon, his research papers, and Shannon's prohibition.
13:48:11 <HackEso> Relearned 'shannon': Shannon forbade non mathematically minded people from reading his resarch papers. Taneb invented Shannon, his research papers, and Shannon's prohibition.
13:48:22 <Taneb> That's somewhat less ambiguous
13:49:51 <HackEso> tanea:Tanea plays Minecrafs, Dware Fortresr, and lives in Cambridgd.
13:50:01 <wob_jonas> ``` hg grep -l -r ":8422" 'Taneb invented it' wisdom
13:50:16 <HackEso> wisdom/this sentence:4396 \ wisdom/torus:5763 \ wisdom/bbc:7823 \ wisdom/it:8397 \ wisdom/underwater jousting:8405 \ wisdom/necessity:8408
13:50:23 <wob_jonas> ^ and of those, "it" and "underwater jousting" are my own, so they don't count
13:50:38 * int-e wonders whether "Cambridgd" is still up-to-date.
13:51:02 <int-e> (Not that it's really any of our business.)
13:56:23 <HackEso> Submarine jousting is unexplainable.
13:56:27 <HackEso> underwater jousting? ¯\(°_o)/¯
13:56:52 <wob_jonas> hmm, did Taneb invent submarine jousting?
13:57:07 <HackEso> Tanebventions include necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, metar, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, Italian, the grace period, the limerick, ruin, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths or tanebventions: foods. He never invents anything involving sex.
14:03:09 <wob_jonas> ``` hg log -r "7042" -T "{rev}:{date|shortdate}:{desc}\n" wisdom/tanebvention # ed? seriously?
14:03:10 <HackEso> 7042:2016-02-28:<b_jonas> `` ed wisdom/tanebvention <<<$\'1s/ Go, /&submarine jousting, /\\nwq\'
14:10:16 <wob_jonas> my hon. and learned friend fungot, do you watch submarine jousting?
14:10:16 <fungot> wob_jonas: what we have the important conclusions, the report notes the irony of the governments two working days forward, that the necessary, even if the government are
14:34:36 <Taneb> wob_jonas: I may have invented submarine jousting but Phantom_Hoover is the undisputed world champion
14:35:21 <arseniiv_> btw where could I read about ‘data ~ comonoids’? (I’m reading about that tensory shachaf thing finally, yay)
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14:36:02 <arseniiv> it’s about that deleting and copying, I’ve got it
14:36:42 <arseniiv> counit deletes, cothatotherthing duplicates
14:38:43 <arseniiv> also sigfpe have written several times about tensory things in Haskell (and used do notation, how couldn’t it be)
14:39:07 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl* youtube
14:39:24 <int-e> fungot: do *you* want to deliver the brexit?
14:39:25 <fungot> int-e: the right to a review of it. on the commitment to the bill and the other is the reckless. the eu insists that the government take to make that a reality, and that
14:39:41 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: well, I don't really know, but what you wrote sounds suspicious, so my guess is that it's wrong
14:40:24 <arseniiv> it’s the only way a data ~ comonoid makes sense to me yet :)
14:41:13 <arseniiv> maybe shachaf would say in what sense it should be understood, then
14:41:34 <int-e> "Labour has been absolutely clear from the start..." <laughter>
14:42:00 <arseniiv> as I get it, it’s not data vs. codata but data vs. something hardly copyable/destructible
14:42:31 <arseniiv> if it’s the case with the suspicion
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14:45:55 <arseniiv> also I’m intrigued if there could be an analog of metric tensor, say, commutative functions f(x, y) and f(X, Y) canonical in some way and such that f(x, y) f(Y, Z) = id(x, Z) etc.
15:00:37 <wob_jonas> darn you, unpredictable 1-indexing
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15:23:49 <arseniiv> shachaf> Oh, I was thinking of something like: foo(b, OUT) = blah(b, L, R) length(l, OUT) twice(r, OUT) => oh, could we make some abstraction of argument lists, too? for example (,) is like conjunction/product, and we could add something like disjunction/sum, and then one should be able to write blah(b, (L ; R)), where (;) is that one “disjunctional separator”
15:24:28 <arseniiv> hm it suddenly reminds me of sequent calculus
15:24:51 <arseniiv> and those traditional formulations of linear logic based on it
15:30:52 <arseniiv> shachaf> something like recursion with something like foo(x,X) => wait wait, what should foo(x, X) mean? Shouldn’t these isolated “scalars” be in a sense unobservable? We can’t interact with them, there’s no strings dangling…
15:32:37 <arseniiv> at least id(x, X) should not add anything, so maybe other scalar terms shouldn’t too… hm but a zero scalar should fail, or that nice addition semantics wouldn’t work
15:34:19 <Taneb> arseniiv: an acronym shachaf uses, I think to mean "too good"
15:34:47 <HackEso> TG is short for Turing-Gödel, the highest possible level of difficulty for a multiplayer game. At this level, it's undecidable whether you can manage to halt before losing or not.
15:35:10 <LKoen> tell me you made that up
15:35:40 <arseniiv> “TG is f^W Turing good and too Gödel for me”
15:36:09 <arseniiv> maybe 1 + 1 should be nondeterministic
15:36:53 <wob_jonas> that wasn't me. that was oerjan and int-e.
15:37:54 <HackEso> int-̈e int-̈e oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän
15:38:15 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: dwag: not found
15:38:24 <Taneb> How does cwlprits handle people with single-character nicks?
15:38:24 * int-e can't remember that command
15:39:20 <HackEso> 8822:2016-07-16 <int-̈e> revert \ 8821:2016-07-16 <int-̈e> learn_append tg This gizmo talks gibberish too garbled to grasp. \ 7314:2016-03-29 <oerjän> sedlast s/quit/halt/ \ 7313:2016-03-29 <oerjän> learn_append tg At this level, it\'s undecidable whether you can manage to quit before losing or not. \ 7257:2016-03-21 <oerjän> learn TG is short for Turing-G\xc3\xb6del, the highest possible level of difficulty for a multiplayer game. \ 7256:2016-03-2
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16:10:54 <arseniiv> maybe we could add something like subtyping to that tensorial system to be able to control whether an expression is total and/or deterministic
16:10:54 <arseniiv> for example cons(X, XS, l) : (out a, out list a, in cons a), nil(l) : (in nil), and (A : (Γ, in t, Δ), B : (Γ, in u, Δ)) |- A + B : (Γ, in t + u, Δ), and list a = cons a + nil, and we mark list a and other ADTs as “total types” and any non-ADT sums of constructor types as either partial or indeterministic or neither (like cons a + cons a)
16:13:32 <arseniiv> and also please forget what I said about 0, it seems it shouldn’t be considered as a fail
16:15:38 <arseniiv> a Prolog analogy suggests it transparently
16:16:56 <arseniiv> also maybe we indeed really deal there with linear logic, and then there should be two kinds of scalars and two different zeros, one is this unconditional success and the other I can’t remember what it is
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16:33:16 <arseniiv> five months ago I @told myself with and underscore some thing and today was very confused when saw and read that message
16:34:27 -!- sleepnap has left.
16:36:41 <Taneb> What was the message
16:42:47 <wob_jonas> the message was "five months ago I @told myself with and underscore some thing and today was very confused when saw and read that message "
16:54:36 <shachaf> arseniiv: Yes, by comonoid I mean copy+delete
16:55:19 <arseniiv> Taneb: it was “why did you add an underscore?”
16:56:47 <shachaf> arseniiv: Yes, sequent composition/the cut rule is the same sort of thing as tensor contraction.
16:57:54 <shachaf> arseniiv: I think there's probably some analog of a metric at least in some contexts.
17:01:15 <shachaf> Why shouldn't 0 be fail? I think it is fail.
17:05:53 <shachaf> Maybe you can do a full classical linear logic thing, in which case it'd be one of the additive units, I guess.
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17:18:02 <arseniiv> shachaf: consider this Prolog code: succeeds() :- . If I get it right, there’s 0 in rhs
17:18:37 <shachaf> I think that should be a 1?
17:19:32 <shachaf> "foo(X) :- bar(X)." is the same as "foo(X) :- bar(X), succeeds()."
17:20:22 <arseniiv> still, it’s strange in light of that scalars are “uninteracting”
17:21:06 <arseniiv> we don’t send to, nor recieve from them anything
17:21:20 <arseniiv> how could they change something, then?
17:21:25 <shachaf> Scalars are something like the count of ways to satisfy a program.
17:21:58 <shachaf> There's one way to satisfy succeeds(), and zero ways to satisfy fails().
17:22:18 <arseniiv> maybe I just haven’t understood what foo(x, X) should mean
17:22:37 <shachaf> Oh, trace? I'm not sure how it should work either.
17:23:38 <shachaf> But I do know that if you say "foo(x, Y) :- bar(x), vaz(Y)", then foo(x, X) = bar(x) vaz(X)
17:23:53 <shachaf> I'm only not sure about the behavior when they're connected.
17:25:11 <Taneb> Is there such a thing as a completely disconnected category?
17:25:18 <Taneb> Which would just be a collection of monoids, I guess
17:25:37 <arseniiv> hm maybe we must think in a prology way further, then it succeeds iff x is a fixed point of foo
17:26:06 <shachaf> Right, that's trace, of course.
17:26:15 <arseniiv> Taneb: surely it should have a name and maybe even this name
17:26:17 <shachaf> If you represent rules as tensors, trace adds up the diagonals.
17:26:31 <Taneb> arseniiv: eh, as I was typing I realised just how uninteresting it is
17:27:15 <shachaf> Taneb: There are totally disconnected topological spaces which are at least somewhat interesting.
17:29:42 <arseniiv> it’s strange that we get fixed point checking predicates seemingly out of the blue; it should be impossible for some types, but if we don’t trace any “complementary” variable pairs, then it doesn’t appear. How do one constraints that on a level of categories?
17:30:03 <arseniiv> it should be impossible for some types => I mean, equality
17:30:46 <shachaf> I guess these could be infinite-dimensional vector spaces which would mean a lot of my intuition about tensors stops working.
17:31:22 <arseniiv> on the other hand, special properties of id allow us have id(x, X) even if x isn’t equatable, it’s just 1 regardless
17:32:06 <shachaf> In linera algebra trace(id_V) is the dimension of V
17:32:23 <shachaf> Here it seems like it could be the number of inhabitants of a type or something.
17:32:34 <shachaf> Which is indeed the number of fixed points.
17:33:34 <arseniiv> this makes some sense, it seems for types without equality we can’t sensibly define a number of inhabitants
17:33:50 <arseniiv> then we can’t allow writing id(x, X) for x of that type
17:34:28 <shachaf> Well, it might still be workable.
17:34:49 <arseniiv> maybe we even can’t have id of these types at all! :o
17:34:59 <arseniiv> then we can’t have foo(x, X) too
17:35:26 <arseniiv> as it should be equal to foo(x, Y) id(y, X), and id(y, X) for that type doesn’t exist
17:35:43 <shachaf> I guess it's possible for some types to have trace and others not.
17:36:19 <shachaf> You can say that, like in Haskell or whatever, trace allows you to write arbitrary recursion.
17:36:42 <shachaf> So things that use trace might not halt.
17:36:44 <shachaf> Trace is the thing that lets you can write foo(x, X)
17:37:06 <arseniiv> I think disallowing id is sufficient
17:37:28 <arseniiv> yeah, technically it’s the trace
17:39:37 <arseniiv> maybe one should simply ban any expressions with loops
17:40:09 <shachaf> Or only allow them for some types.
17:40:16 <shachaf> In particular for finite types they could be OK?
17:40:49 <shachaf> Also general recursion is probably fine too, who cares.
17:41:01 <shachaf> Can you write recursive rules with trace instead of explicit recursion?
17:42:36 <arseniiv> In particular for finite types they could be OK? => consider boolean not(x, X') dup(x', X, Y)
17:44:34 <shachaf> whoa, if you're allowing duplications that's a different story
17:44:42 <shachaf> Not representable as tensors anymore (?)
17:45:06 <arseniiv> shouldn’t be the category still monoidal? (IDK too)
17:45:35 <shachaf> Sure, but if it's a tensor I know how to contract it, just sum along the diagonal.
17:45:50 <shachaf> In other cases it's less obvious.
17:46:22 <shachaf> If you make + saturating, so 1 + 1 = 1, then I think this may be the category Rel?
17:49:28 <arseniiv> about recursion: let’s take e. g. fact(n, F) = zero(n) one(F) + dup(n, N', N'') succ(M, n') times(n'', f1, F) fact(m, f1)
17:49:43 <arseniiv> I think it isn’t possible without fixed-point combinator
17:50:43 <arseniiv> oh I should’ve written it tail-recursively
17:50:57 <shachaf> I think you should take a simpler recursive function. :-)
17:51:18 <shachaf> What's the simplest recursive definition?
17:51:28 <arseniiv> maybe. Let’s take list length maybe
17:52:55 <shachaf> Maybe doubling a number. That's pretty simple, and even primitive recursion.
17:53:35 <shachaf> double(n, OUT) = zero(n) zero(OUT) + succ(M, n) double(m, M2) succ(m2, M2P1) succ(m2p1, OUT)
17:53:58 <shachaf> This style is so awkward. But I think you can introduce a shorthand to make it easier.
17:54:13 <arseniiv> I’ll write my one from scratch, it’s easier to check then
17:56:24 <arseniiv> ah yes of course it’s all right
17:57:30 <arseniiv> I’ll beter write a tail-recursive one for comparison in plain Haskell first
17:58:16 <shachaf> You think tail recursion will be easier?
17:58:40 <arseniiv> I hope it will connect somehow better
17:59:02 <shachaf> double Z acc = acc; double (S n) acc = double n (S (S acc))
18:00:17 <arseniiv> in these two non-tail-recursive definitions no argument in the definition and in the recursive call does match, let’s see for tail-recursive
18:00:25 <shachaf> double(n, acc, OUT) = zero(n) id(acc, OUT) + succ(M, n) succ(acc, ACCP1) succ(accp1, ACCP2) double(m, ACCP2, OUT)
18:01:22 <arseniiv> at least OUT matches (obviously :D)
18:01:31 <shachaf> One of the shorthands I was using before was that you can drop the last argument if it's out-only, and just use a thing as an expression.
18:02:21 <arseniiv> I think we do still need fixed-poind combinator, IDK
18:02:26 <shachaf> The way I think of trace is like https://arxiv.org/pdf/1401.5113.pdf , going around the loop repeatedly until it halts.
18:08:42 <shachaf> I bet if I was thinking about it more declaratively I could figure it out.
18:09:49 <arseniiv> from another perspective, shouldn’t it then be possible in Prolog or its some known modifiaction?
18:10:27 <shachaf> What about something like:
18:10:34 <shachaf> double(n, OUT) = trace_acc { zero(n) id(acc, OUT) + succ(M, n) succ(acc, ACCP1) succ(accp1, ACCp2) id(, OUT) }
18:11:12 <shachaf> But that's not even outputing ACC, it's nonsense.
18:13:06 <shachaf> double(n, OUT) = real_double(n, OUT, x, X)
18:16:29 <arseniiv> real_double(n, OUT, x, Y) = zero(n) … id(x, Y) + succ(…, n) … succ(x, Y)?
18:19:32 <arseniiv> with such trace semantics, in some other cases it could be troublesome that we start with an unknown x in foo(…, x, X)
18:20:05 <arseniiv> and in this one too, if x could be such that succ(x, X) :o
18:20:34 <arseniiv> so this language shouldn’t be unmarked-lazy
18:32:10 <shachaf> arseniiv: I don't think succ(x, Y) makes sense because then there just aren't going to be any fixed points.
18:38:56 <shachaf> You could maybe use a different style of trace:
18:38:59 <arseniiv> I mean x is not acc, it’s another accumulator solely for the sake of deciding when to stop tracing, and we could eliminate acc afterwards with dup(acc)
18:39:01 <shachaf> (Either e a -> Either e b) -> a -> b
18:39:32 <shachaf> x isn't acc, but your second case should just always be 0, shouldn't it?
18:39:49 <shachaf> When you take the fixed point it'll give you succ(x, X) which should just always fail.
18:40:55 <arseniiv> it seems I didn’t understand what you’ve said about repeating applications then :D
18:41:28 <arseniiv> but your second case should just always be 0, shouldn't it? => at least for n nonzero it would fail too
18:44:21 <shachaf> When would the right side ever not fail?
18:45:40 <shachaf> Hmm, maybe what you said about dropping n makes sense.
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19:08:40 <b_jonas> Do you know a lottery or stock market where I can get data that is hard to tamper with, hard to guess in advance, is released in a regular schedule and gives new data at least every hour all around the clock, and for which I can be sure people will be able to check the values and these properties even two decades from now?
19:09:46 <b_jonas> I want such a thing for making a nothing-in-my-sleeve proof, where I want to prove something, but for practical reasons my proof requires randomness, so I publish the exact method in advance and perform the proof an hour later based on the publically verifiable randomness that I couldn't have tampered with.
19:10:13 <imode> there are "test" stock markets that do stuff like this.
19:10:47 <b_jonas> imode: '"test" stock market' doesn't sound well. the whole point of a _real_ stock market is that if I could predict the results, I'd be rich.
19:11:01 <b_jonas> and that they probably live for long.
19:11:25 <kmc> something something blockchain
19:11:34 <b_jonas> oh yeah, blockchain could work
19:11:36 <kmc> I know there are Bitcoin lotteries which function like that?
19:12:00 <kmc> like, the random result is based on the next block or something so that it's impossible to predict but also impossible for the lottery people to lie
19:12:05 <b_jonas> someone will hopefully archive the full bitcoin blockchain even if people implement a proper cutting functionality so that clients don't have to store all the chain
19:12:20 <b_jonas> kmc: yes, that should probably work
19:12:48 <b_jonas> today's bitcoin will probably have enough publically accessible mirrored copies twenty years from now
19:13:08 <b_jonas> I don't think that has a one hour turnaround
19:13:18 <b_jonas> I can't get my verified numbers in our hour from now
19:13:49 <b_jonas> or can I? how fast are blocks these days, and how many block do I have to wait in practice?
19:15:26 <kmc> i don't think you need to wait any blocks
19:15:27 <b_jonas> also, isn't a single block still possible to tamper with with a non-vanishing chance if I have enough computing power, so that, say, I can buy a large botnet and have 1/1000 chance of my prediction to go my way, and then do 1000 proofs one of which seems to prove whatever I want?
19:15:38 <b_jonas> kmc: that seems unlikely to me, for bitcoin at least
19:15:42 <kmc> the goal here is not to prevent double spend
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19:15:47 <kmc> though I guess
19:15:53 <kmc> it's still bad if a block gets kicked out of the chain later
19:15:57 <kmc> after you've used it as a rng
19:16:29 <kmc> b_jonas: if you have enough compute power you could cherry-pick transactions in order to have some control over the block hash, but you couldn't control all 256 bits feasibly
19:16:37 <kmc> you might want to extract a low amount of entropy per block
19:16:47 <kmc> idk, these are just some off the cuff thoughts not having thought about it deeply
19:19:52 <b_jonas> ah, bitcoin blocks are one per 10 minutes, so one hour might be a bit too short but the idea doesn't seem unrealistic at least
19:20:44 <b_jonas> it could work if I don't insist on hourly
19:21:00 <b_jonas> and bitcoin is much less often closed for days than stock markets
19:21:35 <kmc> I remember reading that mob-run illegal lotteries back in the day would use the stock market closing price
19:22:26 <kmc> b_jonas: do you know about non-interactive zero knowledge proofs?
19:22:43 <kmc> they also involve agreed-on methods for producing 'nothing up my sleeve' randomness
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19:26:48 <shachaf> kmc: Do you like the Fiat-Shamir heuristic?
19:27:05 <kmc> what's that
19:27:23 <b_jonas> kmc: um, as far as I know, zero knowledge is different, and the proof I want isn't (necessarily) zero-knowledge. it might be zero-knowledge, but that's somewhat orthogonal to what I want.
19:27:42 <shachaf> The thing where you hash your input to get challenges for your ZKP prover.
19:27:43 <kmc> b_jonas: yes but it might have a similar component
19:28:25 <kmc> b_jonas: traditional ZKP's are interactive protocols where the challenger provides randomness, but you can make them noninteractive by providing an algorithm for the prover to generate randomness, which the challenger can verify isn't cooked somehow
19:28:29 <kmc> like what shachaf just said
19:28:33 <kmc> how secure is that one?
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19:28:51 <b_jonas> in fact, zero-knowledge usually means a non-transferable proof, one where I have a target and I prove something to them based on data they give, but they can't prove to anyone that I proved that thing to them because anyone else could believe that they chose the right data
19:28:58 <b_jonas> that's sort of the opposite of what I want
19:29:00 <shachaf> As far as I can tell it's great.
19:29:18 <shachaf> Also I invented it and then found out it was a standard thing.
19:29:22 <kmc> b_jonas: yes, I am not saying that what you have is a zero knowledge proof system
19:29:25 <kmc> b_jonas: you might want to ask ##crypto too
19:29:33 <shachaf> Blockchain people don't use it because they don't like Fiat.
19:29:50 <b_jonas> oh, I think I see what you mean. what I perform, other than getting the verifiable randomness itself, is sort of a zero-knowledge proof
19:30:06 <b_jonas> except that I can rely on that the input data itself isn't manipulated
19:30:20 <b_jonas> but that's not too big of a difference, you can bridge that gap with a crypto commitment
19:31:13 <shachaf> I think kmc just means "ZKPs use randomness, you use randomness, let's all get along hth"
19:31:21 <b_jonas> let me look up lotteries, there are probably some well-known long-lived ones drawn more often than once a week on the west of the wall
19:31:47 <b_jonas> and hopefully not ones like we have here that take breaks on certain days of a year
19:32:00 <b_jonas> I mean what the heck? why would you close a _lottery_ for a holiday?
19:33:39 <arseniiv> shachaf> This is tricky. => fully agree
19:36:25 <esowiki> [[Talk:Difficult]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=59520 * Salpynx * (+260) Some "missing characteristics"?
19:40:46 <b_jonas> ok, I probably want something with the stock market, not lottery
19:41:02 <b_jonas> I don't know how the stock market works, but I can probably find out from the internet
19:41:13 <b_jonas> but the problem with the stock market is that I hear sometimes they close for days
19:41:26 <b_jonas> and the closing is often not even planned
19:41:33 <b_jonas> plus they have planned closures for holidays
19:41:43 <b_jonas> and closures every night for several hours
19:41:47 <b_jonas> still, it's better than nothing
19:43:34 <b_jonas> kjm: I don't think that hashing multiple blocks helps. all blocks depend on all the previous blocks as far as I know, so if I can generate one block with my own info, then at that point I know the previous blocks, so I can make the entire hash to come out the way I want.
19:44:08 <b_jonas> for a similar reason, hashing wikipedia edits or IRC lines can't work, because I can take the last edit or the last line of the given period
19:44:32 <b_jonas> it gets a bit tricky because of lag, mind you
19:44:38 <kmc> b l o c k c h a i n
19:45:00 <kmc> also I'm not sure I understand the security model here. is it bad if others can predict in advance the randomness used for a given proof?
19:45:56 <b_jonas> kmc: if "others" can predict in advance, then I can't prove that I'm not one of those "others"
19:46:16 <kmc> can't you prove your identity separately? like with a digital signature
19:46:28 <b_jonas> unless that "others" thing is a really well trusted third party, but those things don't exist
19:46:30 <kmc> I think we need a better description of the overall problem
19:46:35 <kmc> also, maybe we should take this to ##crypto
19:46:38 <kmc> some very knowledgable people there
19:51:19 <kmc> Riastradh isn't here :)
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19:59:26 <shachaf> kmc: me reading an article nominally about ZKPs and then it suddenly starts talking about blockchains: https://blog.openai.com/content/images/2017/04/low_res_maybe_faster.gif
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20:09:02 <b_jonas> hmm wait, how often does Trump tweet, and how reliable is the best pre-trained model that tells what's tweeted by him and what by his campaign manager?
20:09:03 <salpynx> b_jonas: couldn't you achieve the thing by using a standard psuedo-random alogrithim, with a verified distribution, and use a real world source of randomness to provide a seed in the future?
20:09:57 <b_jonas> salpynx: yes, the hard part is the real world source of randomness. I know about cryptographically secure digest that can shuffle the seed so I get a uniform distribution no matter what distribution the input has, if it has enough entropy
20:09:58 <esowiki> [[Talk:Difficult]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59521&oldid=59520 * Arseniiv * (+317) moar
20:10:40 <b_jonas> salpynx: the question is what's the real world source that has the properties I listed above, verifable long in the future, releasing enough bits approximately every hour, and provably impossible to tamper
20:11:32 <b_jonas> if I only wanted a turnaround of about one week, then certain lotteries would work
20:11:50 <b_jonas> but I want something with shorter wait time, and ideally a bit more entropy, though I can mix two lotteries to get enough entropy
20:12:02 <salpynx> Either way, stock market or blockchain, you could still have some influence over each, or be accused of it. Isn't the only protection against that sort of thing by publishing your method and allowing others to reproduce using any comparable source of randomness of their own?
20:12:19 <b_jonas> salpynx: I am publishing my method in advance, that's the point
20:12:40 <b_jonas> but the question is, what tamper-proof input should the method use?
20:12:57 <b_jonas> stock market is likely close to the answer, I just don't know enough details about it
20:13:01 <arseniiv> b_jonas: how bad is random.org?
20:13:03 <salpynx> Your peers are an unbiased(?) random source
20:13:20 <b_jonas> arseniiv: random.org doesn't provide verifiable (logged in the long term) random numbers as far as I know
20:13:59 <arseniiv> hope it would be at least of some use
20:14:23 <shachaf> b_jonas: There's no standard stock market that is open every hour as far as I know.
20:14:47 <shachaf> Forex is the closest but it stil closes for a couple of hours a week, I think.
20:14:49 <b_jonas> shachaf: it can be a combination of multiple stock markets, and even if I can't literally get what I'm asking for, I'd like at least an approximation
20:15:09 <b_jonas> shachaf: even if you give me a method that works any time except Christmas, that would be useful
20:15:13 <shachaf> Also I don't know that there's a canonical hourly price. Though you might be able to figure out something.
20:17:13 <b_jonas> hmm... random.org says they do provide verified random numbers, but only as a paid service https://www.random.org/draws/
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20:18:32 <b_jonas> shachaf: it doesn't need to be "canonical", in the sense that I can publish the exact method in advance, but that method has to be clearly impossible to tamper with
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20:19:35 <b_jonas> the random.org payed service deliberately provides very little entropy
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20:20:45 <salpynx> Sunspot data, or some other large scale scientific data source that is logged? Might not be very random, but there could be enough in the precision for a seed?
20:21:08 <b_jonas> 0.5 USD per bit... could be worth for an important enough proof, but I'd prefer a lower price
20:21:33 <salpynx> Someone probably has sun activity hourly
20:21:35 <b_jonas> salpynx: oh, that could work
20:21:40 <b_jonas> NASA releases astronomical data
20:21:46 <b_jonas> though I don't think it has a one hour turnaround
20:22:25 <b_jonas> mind you, it's not easy to prove that I'm not working there hiding "copyright bits" in their data
20:22:50 <b_jonas> as in, bits that are such low order that they are effectively noise, not verifiable astronomical data
20:23:14 <b_jonas> still, that's not a bad idea, might perhaps work
20:23:38 <salpynx> Would be interesting to investigate what kind of sources like that exist. On earth metereological might be too easy to "predict"
20:24:13 <b_jonas> the problem with meteorology is the same, I could be working at the computer tech of the meteorological institute whose data I use
20:24:33 <b_jonas> it's hard to prove that I don't work there, nor do any of my friends
20:24:49 <b_jonas> friends in a wide enough sense
20:25:43 <b_jonas> also, meteorological data archives are guarded behind paywalls, they're usually not easy to verify two decades later
20:25:53 <b_jonas> NASA might actually be better
20:26:55 <kmc> b_jonas: blockchain sounds like by far the best solution here, why do you keep dismissing it
20:26:56 <b_jonas> but a lottery or stock market would be the best, because there enough money is riding on enough bits that even a friend probably can't modify the bits the way they want
20:27:14 <b_jonas> kmc: I'm not dismissing it, I'm just not convinced that it works, I'd like more details than just "blockchain"
20:27:46 <shachaf> imo invent a blockchain specifically for randomness
20:27:49 <b_jonas> at least it actually sound relevant here, unlike in some of the dozen things where "blockchain" is used as a marketing word
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20:28:36 <b_jonas> shachaf: or found my own country that isn't destroyed by a war for decades and has a state lottery every hour
20:28:37 <shachaf> Every hour, everyone can submit commitments to integers, and the results are all xored together.
20:28:52 <kmc> well what's wrong with taking the most recent bitcoin block hash
20:29:08 <kmc> perhaps it can be influenced somewhat, but can you counter that by using fewer bits, somehow?
20:29:42 <b_jonas> shachaf: hmm. how do you get it popular enough though, to make enough people interested and committed to run it on their computers?
20:30:03 <shachaf> You don't need that many people.
20:30:24 <shachaf> Each participant can submit their own data if they don't trust it.
20:30:28 <b_jonas> I wonder if one of these old distributed computing projects that search for Mersenne-primes or signals from space or protein folding happens to provide this as a side effect
20:30:34 <shachaf> What's the use of this thing anyway?
20:31:39 <b_jonas> shachaf: yes, but I'd have to convince people that it's worth first, make it one of the few protocols that are really ran by many people, rather than one that's abandonned and a year from now nobody will know that anyone but my friends have even ran it
20:31:44 <b_jonas> one that I couldn't really fake it
20:31:46 <shachaf> Other than the "for making a nothing-in-my-sleeve proof" bit.
20:32:03 <shachaf> OK, that seems to underspecify it.
20:32:09 <b_jonas> let me try to give an example
20:38:07 <b_jonas> hmm... you might be right, it's not so easy to give a convincing example without also giving a solution
20:55:46 <oerjan> @tell fizzie https://esolangs.org/logs/2016-06-09.html#lNl leads me to the wrong message in IE, although the correct one is colored. checking the source shows that i'm actually going to #lnl, IE's anchors are case insensitive.
20:59:18 <b_jonas> shachaf: I think I can give a fictional example that works if I want one day of lag in the randomness. I think I can't really argue that I need as little as one hour of lag.
21:00:13 <b_jonas> it's probably possible to get verifiably hard to tamper randomness from stock markets, or by combining multiple lotteries that draw on different days
21:01:46 <oerjan> @tell fizzie trying to google seems to imply there's some html 4 vs 5 thing involved
21:08:34 <kmc> b_jonas: what are you ACTUALLY trying to do
21:08:59 <b_jonas> kmc: nothing yet, I'm just thinking about this as an exercise
21:09:25 <HackEso> Shannon forbade non mathematically minded people from reading his resarch papers. Taneb invented Shannon, his research papers, and Shannon's prohibition.
21:10:01 <oerjan> `slwd shannon//s,resa,resea,
21:10:08 <HackEso> shannon//Shannon forbade non mathematically minded people from reading his research papers. Taneb invented Shannon, his research papers, and Shannon's prohibition.
21:10:21 <b_jonas> oh great, you're fixing that
21:10:43 <oerjan> . o O ( Taneb did not invent correct spelling )
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21:17:18 <salpynx> Something "blockchain" could work, depending on a clever algorithm and what the actual requirements, but seems to me that for any specifed hour you could automate some kind of influence into the 'randomness', which depending on the goal and how important it is to you, you could do. Feels like there is still room for sleeve hiding with blockchain
21:17:56 <salpynx> Fictional example would be interesting though to see
21:18:02 <oerjan> @tell Taneb <Taneb> How does cwlprits handle people with single-character nicks? <-- it lets them have the mess they deserve hth
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21:19:09 <kmc> salpynx: there definitely is
21:19:16 <kmc> it's a question of how much influence you can have vs. effort
21:19:19 <kmc> whether that can be made practical
21:19:53 <salpynx> b_jonas: another idea I just had: micro-quake data combined / averaged from multiple independent sources globally, to remove posdibilty that you work at the sole data source. Should be frequent, and have multiple confirmations fir same events
21:20:34 <kmc> what if I go setting off nuclear bombs to create artificial quakes and influence the data?
21:20:37 <kmc> WHAT THEN??
21:21:07 <b_jonas> salpynx: I certainly don't know enough about who measures and publishes micro-quake data and how to tell if that can work
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21:22:10 <oerjan> have you considered LIGO and VIRGO data
21:22:22 <salpynx> kmc: hrm, that's pretty much my argument against blockchain :( At least the nuclear tampering is mire noticable than blockchain manipulation?
21:22:33 <b_jonas> oerjan: hmm, now that's interesting. I'll have to look up how that's published
21:23:31 <b_jonas> hmm, perhaps there's GPS data that is definite and logged
21:23:51 <b_jonas> I mean, data of the GPS satellites and network itself
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21:24:02 <b_jonas> that stuff that the GPS satellites themselves broadcast
21:24:02 <kmc> yes, but satellites are mostly predictable
21:24:52 <b_jonas> I don't really know how all that GPS stuff works
21:25:11 <oerjan> hm i guess LIGO and VIRGO also have the problem of long downtime periods. although that might get better with more detectors.
21:25:14 <salpynx> Sorry, the sudden outbreak of global nuclear war on the very hour if your "randomness proof" invalidates tour results. Please try again...
21:25:44 <kmc> b_jonas: er, I thought the whole point was to have globally agreed random numbers that can't be predicted in advance
21:26:08 <b_jonas> kmc: yeah, but I mean, I think there's probably enough randomness in the GPS satellite data, as in, they're not too predicatble for this
21:26:23 <b_jonas> but I'm not sure it's broadcast in a single version and logged long time properly
21:26:42 <kmc> orbital mechanics is pretty predictable
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21:58:50 <b_jonas> thanks for the ideas, I might think or look up more about these
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23:39:16 <kmc> not esolang related
23:39:21 <kmc> i'm learning about ham radio antennas
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23:41:23 <TheKing01> And I think you mean not esolang related *yet*.
23:41:34 <imode> working on the correspondance between networks of queue automata and physical fields.
23:42:04 <kmc> well, that could be interesting
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23:47:30 <fizzie> I managed to do my first work-blessed open source thing, which was fun enough, but it's not going to be esolang-related now or later.
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23:48:11 <kmc> what's new?
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23:49:49 <fizzie> kmc: Not much. Had I already moved to London when you were still around here?
23:49:55 <fizzie> If not, well, I moved to London.
23:50:08 <kmc> we've talked about it in #trains a few times
23:50:15 <kmc> do you like it?
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23:50:59 <fizzie> The average is positive. Cycling infrastructure could be better, and Brexit's a big mess. But there's a lot going on, and less snow.
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23:54:10 <rain1> I wonder what you could just if you just had something that reads into a JIT buffer and executes it
23:54:26 <fizzie> We got a UK hosting/VPS company to sponsor the wiki machine (and #esolangs logs + HackEso), that's kind of new.
23:55:52 <fizzie> (It used to be on Gregor's shady one-time-fee "Cloud at Cost" box, which was So Flaky.)
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23:56:24 <b_jonas> fizzie: is it a short bug report to an open source project that you're depending on at work, without a patch?
23:57:50 <b_jonas> hmm no, that probably wouldn't require a blessing
23:57:54 <TheKing01> Here's a fun idea for an irc related esolang. We have one which uses IRC syntax and one which uses IRC users. How about one that you program over IRC?
23:58:14 <b_jonas> unless you're working under a very strict non-disclosure agreement...
23:58:23 <fizzie> b_jonas: No, it's something standalone I whittled together on my spare time, I just released it under the company copyright because I don't really care, and the review for that is faster than the review for getting a decision that they don't own it.
23:58:27 <fizzie> b_jonas: https://opensource.google.com/projects/nano-exporter
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00:02:51 <fizzie> oerjan: Aw, that's sucky. I could convert the anchors not to rely on case, but the whole point of them was to be permalinks, and that would invalidate all existing ones.
00:03:34 <b_jonas> fizzie: by the way, are you working under such an NDA that doesn't allow you to tell your friends whether you're working in the pharma research division or the military research division?
00:04:00 <TheKing01> that you could make the language like Muriel by having it reprogram itself.
00:04:10 <fizzie> b_jonas: Not as far as I know, but I'm no legal expert and it's not like I've had a look at my employment contract since starting.
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00:05:06 <b_jonas> I've met someone who could explicitly tell that they were working on something related to the Chrome browser, and someone who was under such a strict NDA that they couldn't tell what they were working on
00:05:17 <b_jonas> so I think both kinds of jobs exist at Google
00:05:27 <fizzie> Well, Chrome's open source, all the commits are out there in public. It'd be hard to hide that.
00:06:35 <fizzie> I've gotten the impression that I can mention I'm working on the Android search app, which is pretty benign, modulo all those concerns about consumer choice and whatnot that are well outside my scope.
00:08:38 <TheKing01> Or a logic programming language where you get kicked if you add a contradiction.
00:09:23 <imode> the interpreter just closes on you lmao.
00:09:27 <imode> "I'm out, later B."
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00:10:50 <TheKing01> I mean it would kick you from this IRC channel.
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00:11:40 <oerjan> TheKing01: are you familiar with the Vigil language
00:16:19 <oerjan> fungot: do you see any bots?
00:16:19 <fungot> oerjan: i have, the loss fnord report may have missed the point, bisphosphonates, and i would be more than happy, to debate the government have
00:17:02 <fizzie> `` prefixes # that's a little like a bot list
00:17:04 <HackEso> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ .
00:17:12 <fizzie> That might be a little stale.
00:18:34 <oerjan> `slwd prefixes//s,Ego,Eso,
00:18:35 <HackEso> prefixes//Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ .
00:18:55 <fungot> (Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ .)S
00:19:31 <oerjan> ^def prefixes ul (Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ .)S
00:19:41 <fizzie> It's a happy coincidence those parens go that way.
00:20:08 <oerjan> not really, i explicitly suggested jconn use ) just to get it that way
00:20:44 <oerjan> before that i used bf_txtgen
00:22:41 <oerjan> make that bf_txtgen + the ^str commands. awkward times.
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00:29:41 <kmc> google has a pharma research division?
00:30:13 <imode> honestly would _not_ be surprised.
00:30:34 <fizzie> There's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verily if it counts.
00:30:45 <fizzie> It's a separate bet now, though.
00:32:04 <fizzie> And https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calico_(company) as well.
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02:39:05 <esowiki> [[Template:Frac]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=59522 * Cortex * (+37) Created page with "<sup>{{{1}}}</sup>/<sub>{{{2}}}</sub>"
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03:20:19 <esowiki> [[2/9 of an esolang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=59523 * Cortex * (+1340) Created page with "'''2/9 of an esolang''' is an esolang made by [[User:Cortex|]] in order to make doing anything relatively easy, but long-winded and inconvenient. == Syntax == Every line of c..."
03:21:09 <esowiki> [[User:Cortex]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59524&oldid=59445 * Cortex * (+52)
03:22:02 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59525&oldid=59355 * Cortex * (+51)
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05:50:32 <esowiki> [[2/9 of an esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59526&oldid=59523 * Ais523 * (+319) how can I resist an invitation like that? I picked two instructions which probably make the language TC (although I haven't actually checked if they do), and have clear but long-winded uses in translating more normal code
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06:52:25 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59527&oldid=59519 * A * (+542) /* Hello World! */
06:56:11 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59528&oldid=59527 * A * (+233) /* Control structures */
06:58:40 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59529&oldid=59528 * A * (+157) /* Goto statement */
07:02:14 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59530&oldid=59529 * A * (+336) /* while */
07:06:50 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59531&oldid=59530 * A * (+223) /* =for loop */
07:10:13 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59532&oldid=59531 * A * (+212) /* Setting variables */
07:21:57 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59533&oldid=59532 * A * (+425) /* Turing-completeness */
07:22:12 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59534&oldid=59533 * A * (+0) /* Turing-completeness */
07:25:47 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59535&oldid=59534 * A * (+224) /* do..while and do..until loop */
07:26:18 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59536&oldid=59535 * A * (+29) /* Turing-completeness */
07:26:58 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59537&oldid=59536 * A * (+9) /* Turing-completeness */
07:32:15 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59538&oldid=59537 * A * (+187)
07:41:27 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59539&oldid=59538 * A * (+566) /* Functions */
07:43:45 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59540&oldid=59539 * A * (+236) /* Functions */
07:44:10 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59541&oldid=59540 * A * (+33) /* Turing-completeness */
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07:51:00 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59542&oldid=59541 * A * (+459) /* Functions */
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07:53:58 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59543&oldid=59542 * A * (+121) /* Setting variables */
07:58:52 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59544&oldid=59543 * A * (+512) /* Objects */
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08:02:29 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59545&oldid=59544 * A * (+358) /* The powerful "thing" library */
09:16:18 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59546&oldid=59545 * A * (+131) /* The powerful "thing" library */
09:19:07 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59547&oldid=59546 * A * (+211) /* Other operators */
09:20:49 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59548&oldid=59547 * A * (+84) /* Other operators */
09:22:08 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59549&oldid=59548 * A * (+55) /* Other operators */
09:25:28 <esowiki> [[Talk:Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59550&oldid=59521 * A * (+49)
09:27:14 <esowiki> [[Talk:Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59551&oldid=59550 * A * (+93) Add something
09:28:17 <esowiki> [[Talk:Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59552&oldid=59551 * A * (+26)
09:28:56 <esowiki> [[Talk:Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59553&oldid=59552 * A * (+18)
09:29:39 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59554&oldid=59549 * A * (+4) commenting is better.
09:31:05 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59555&oldid=59554 * A * (+79)
09:35:41 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59556&oldid=59555 * A * (+201) /* Macros */
09:35:49 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59557&oldid=59556 * A * (+1) /* =Dynamic macros */
09:38:19 <esowiki> [[Talk:Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59558&oldid=59553 * A * (-135)
09:48:51 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59559&oldid=59557 * A * (+257) /* Documentation */
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10:19:46 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59560&oldid=59559 * A * (+375) Add an undone list
10:24:54 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59561&oldid=59560 * A * (+4) /* Undone list */
10:27:18 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59562&oldid=59561 * A * (-15)
10:27:36 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59563&oldid=59562 * A * (-1) /* Hello World! */
10:29:52 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59564&oldid=59563 * A * (+135) /* Hello World! */
10:30:34 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59565&oldid=59564 * A * (+28) /* Unfinished list */
10:31:43 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59566&oldid=59565 * A * (+24) /* Unfinished list */
10:32:06 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59567&oldid=59566 * A * (+0) /* Unfinished list */
10:35:20 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59568&oldid=59567 * A * (+158) /* The powerful "thing" library */
10:35:59 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59569&oldid=59568 * A * (+12) /* Unfinished list */
10:39:13 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59570&oldid=59569 * A * (+2) /* Self-modification */
10:56:01 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59571&oldid=59570 * A * (-169) /* The powerful "thing" library */
10:56:19 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59572&oldid=59571 * A * (-10) /* The powerful "thing" library */
11:05:10 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59573&oldid=59572 * A * (+0) /* Other operators */
11:10:35 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59574&oldid=59573 * A * (+126) /* Self-modification */
11:11:09 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59575&oldid=59574 * A * (+12) /* Unfinished list */
11:16:43 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59576&oldid=59575 * A * (+171) /* Objects */
11:19:08 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59577&oldid=59492 * A * (+69) /* Decimal */
11:21:22 <esowiki> [[List of quines]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59578&oldid=59066 * A * (+77) /* CopyPasta Language */
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11:24:22 <wob_jonas> oerjan: IIRC the trick wasn't that jconn would use that parenthesis, it already did, but that you kept jconn in that list even when its hoster no longer ran it
11:27:20 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59579&oldid=59576 * A * (+50) /* Setting variables */
11:32:36 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59580&oldid=59579 * A * (+70) /* Setting variables */
11:32:55 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59581&oldid=59580 * A * (+17) /* Other operators */
11:33:19 <wob_jonas> `bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20190129.html
11:33:20 <HackEso> bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20190129.html: b_jonas
11:36:54 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59582&oldid=59581 * A * (+31) /* Other operators */
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11:43:07 <esowiki> [[List of quines]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59583&oldid=59578 * A * (+553) /* Code pointer */
11:43:19 <esowiki> [[List of quines]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59584&oldid=59583 * A * (+1) /* =Difficult */
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11:50:50 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59585&oldid=59295 * A * (+354) /* Deadfish */
11:51:51 <esowiki> [[List of quines]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59586&oldid=59584 * A * (+84) /* Difficult */
11:57:41 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59587&oldid=59491 * A * (+169) /* Definer */
11:58:42 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59588&oldid=59587 * A * (+53) /* Difficult */
11:59:45 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59589&oldid=59588 * A * (+111) /* Difficult */
12:00:55 <esowiki> [[List of quines]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59590&oldid=59586 * A * (+6) /* Difficult */
12:01:48 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59591&oldid=59582 * A * (+60) /* The powerful "thing" library */
12:02:36 <esowiki> [[List of quines]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59592&oldid=59590 * A * (+0) Problems in my own code again
12:06:24 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59593&oldid=59591 * A * (+47) /* Unfinished list */
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12:21:27 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59594&oldid=59593 * A * (+27)
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12:24:40 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59595&oldid=59594 * A * (-78) No way to cheat now
12:27:00 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59596&oldid=59595 * A * (+1) /* Turing-completeness */
12:27:49 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59597&oldid=59596 * A * (+25) /* Instruction encipherment/decipherment */
12:28:40 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59598&oldid=59597 * A * (+49) /* Instruction encipherment/decipherment */
12:29:18 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59599&oldid=59598 * A * (-179) /* Unfinished list */
12:32:59 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59600&oldid=59599 * A * (+118) /* Unfinished list */
12:40:06 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59601&oldid=59600 * A * (+183) /* If-else if-else statement */
12:46:27 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59602&oldid=59601 * A * (+211) /* for loop */
12:49:27 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59603&oldid=59602 * A * (+134) /* Loop constructs */
12:50:59 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59604&oldid=59603 * A * (+43) /* Hello World! */
12:51:33 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59605&oldid=59604 * A * (+25) /* The powerful "thing" library */
12:52:14 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59606&oldid=59605 * A * (+35) /* The powerful "thing" library */
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13:56:17 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59607&oldid=59606 * A * (+252) /* Control structures */
13:57:32 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59608&oldid=59607 * A * (+58) /* The powerful "thing" library */
13:58:07 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59609&oldid=59589 * A * (-109) /* Difficult */
13:58:51 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59610&oldid=59608 * A * (-118) /* Implementations */
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14:41:17 <wob_jonas> https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/ravnica-allegiance-oracle-changes-2019-01-22 YES!
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15:46:51 <wob_jonas> ``` toroman "$[1+$(fromroman XV)]"
16:03:28 <esowiki> [[Cthulhu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59611&oldid=59303 * Joshop * (-47)
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19:37:14 <rdococ> What would be the best way to create a new programming paradigm?
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19:59:29 <int-e> build a time machine and go back to the 50s
20:04:40 <shachaf> I feel like I'm missing some tricks for writing C code that doesn't use general-purpose allocators.
20:05:00 <shachaf> Where can I read about that sort of thing?
20:05:51 <kmc> what kind of code?
20:06:02 <kmc> you probably want to read guides on embedded programming
20:06:20 <kmc> often dynamic allocation is not allowed at all
20:06:32 <kmc> static ring buffers are useful
20:06:40 <kmc> LRU caches
20:06:54 <kmc> skip arrays?
20:07:00 <shachaf> static allocation is p. good
20:07:15 <kmc> it's almost as good as not needing memory at all
20:07:47 <kmc> if you have to do something that requires dynamic allocation, but a bounded amount, you can use a statically or stack allocated arena
20:07:52 <shachaf> What about a situation like a tree where nodes can have a varying number of children?
20:07:55 <kmc> and the bonus is you don't need to free anything
20:08:00 <shachaf> Most nodes have few children but some could have a lot.
20:08:53 <shachaf> I do like the trick of using an arena as a stack where you can push and pop frames (but with different lifetimes from the call stack).
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20:31:08 <kmc> I'm not sure if it's a thing?
20:31:16 <kmc> maybe only skip lists are a thing
20:31:29 <kmc> but you can use array indices instead of pointers
20:31:32 <kmc> in general
20:31:52 <kmc> the arena as stack sounds like it would be very hazardous in C
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20:35:37 <imode> shachaf: you can always statically allocate a block of memory to hold a tree. you'd just have a set amount of nodes you could mark as used.
20:36:57 <imode> you'd always want to impose a maximum on the number of children a particular node could have. the only technique that you use is allocating a "reasonable maximum" ahead of time.
20:37:10 <imode> finding that maximum takes analysis.
20:39:07 <imode> a particular node could be `struct node { uint32_t data; uint32_t children[16]; }`
20:39:23 <imode> you could also have a pointer to the parent "pool" of nodes that it comes from.
20:40:03 <imode> `struct node_pool { struct node nodes[1024]; }; struct node { uint32_t data; uint32_t children[16]; }`
20:40:06 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: struct: not found
20:41:08 <imode> traversal then "looks" like you're dealing with pointers, so your algorithms are the same. but it's also far more useful due to data locality: if you use multiple pools and the pools are reasonably sized to fit your processor's cache, then operations over your trees will be very fast.
20:46:10 <kmc> you could also have ways to deal with multiple sizes of node
20:46:17 <kmc> like a flag that says "this node is a continuation of the previous"
20:46:25 <kmc> of course when you make things more complex like this, it starts to resemble a general allocator
20:48:17 <imode> exactly. but that's kind of the point: in lieu of using the system allocator, you'd probably just write your own if you need those kinds of patterns.
20:48:54 <imode> but that's the practicality of writing your own: domain specific allocators are good for domain specific access patterns.
20:51:09 <kmc> shachaf: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slab_allocation
20:53:26 <shachaf> kmc: Why would it be hazardous?
20:53:45 <kmc> well, maybe no more hazardous than regular malloc
20:53:52 <kmc> but you have two different separately managed stacks
20:53:57 <kmc> seems like a recipe for use-after-free
20:54:46 <shachaf> I mean, you need to keep track of lifetimes, but you need to do that anyway, and in general things should be be easier to keep track of.
20:55:11 <shachaf> An obvious use is something like sprintf which can just print to the arena.
20:56:18 <imode> I prefer all my state to be global. put your constraints on your access patterns, rather than on your modeling patterns.
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21:12:55 <rain1> do you like post quantum crypto?
21:13:13 <rain1> https://csrc.nist.gov/projects/post-quantum-cryptography/round-2-submissions some interesting algorithms
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21:17:39 <kmc> are they all code- or lattice-based?
21:18:32 <kmc> my favorite pq crypto algorithm is lamport signatures :)
21:18:34 <kmc> so simple!
21:21:31 <shachaf> Did you know you can make a thing based on Lamport signatures that works for 2^128 or however many uses you want?
21:23:32 <shachaf> Unfortunately they're still pretty large.
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21:25:52 <kmc> using merkle trees?
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21:33:30 <kmc> the signatures themselves are long
21:33:34 <kmc> but the key is still short, right?
21:34:10 <kmc> hm, no, that's not right
21:34:22 <kmc> I have forgotten most of what I knew about crypto :(
21:34:26 <kmc> or at least paged it out to cold storage
21:45:52 <shachaf> it's all about blockchain nowadays hth
21:46:05 <shachaf> the good news is you don't need to know anything to participate
21:51:06 <esowiki> [[Eodermdrome]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59612&oldid=51766 * Salpynx * (+211) add example links
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22:15:56 <shachaf> #define struct(name) typedef struct name name; struct name
22:16:39 <kmc> how 'bout not
22:16:56 <kmc> but you can do
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22:17:05 <kmc> typedef struct foo_s { ... } foo;
22:17:27 <kmc> and then you can use types like 'struct foo_s *' in the body of the definition, and 'foo *' everywhere else
22:17:36 <kmc> use C++ :D
22:21:57 <b_jonas> shachaf: I think the standards forbid you to define a macro whose name is a keyword of the language
22:22:15 <b_jonas> but then preprocessors do accept it, so it might not matter
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22:37:46 <rdococ> What is the COMEFROM/CALLFROM equivalent of first-class functions?
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22:51:33 <fizzie> b_jonas: shachaf: You are allowed to have macros lexically identical to keywords, you just can't have any of them defined at the time when you include a standard header or expand any macro defined in a standard header. C11 7.1.2p4.
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23:13:04 <shachaf> ski: What do you think of this linear Prolog thing?
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00:17:17 <orin> ;wa time in santa clara
00:44:50 <arseniiv> no one seems to want a forth with types
01:13:49 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59613&oldid=59610 * A * (+1) /* Loop constructs */
01:14:43 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59614&oldid=59613 * A * (-30) /* Dynamic macros */
01:15:23 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59615&oldid=59614 * A * (-50) That is enough.
01:16:34 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59616&oldid=59615 * A * (-9) /* The powerful "thing" library */
01:19:47 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59617&oldid=59616 * A * (+271) /* Instruction encipherment/decipherment */
01:23:52 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59618&oldid=59617 * A * (+125) /* Local variables */
01:29:09 <shachaf> kmc: Also I want to know about writing C APIs that don't use malloc, which seems like a more generally important thing.
01:29:20 <shachaf> I think I may have talked about that before.
01:38:09 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59619&oldid=59618 * A * (+311) /* Local variables */
01:38:42 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59620&oldid=59619 * A * (+31) /* Setting variables */
01:39:12 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59621&oldid=59620 * A * (+25) /* Unfinished list */
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01:46:27 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59622&oldid=59621 * A * (+317) /* Stacks */
01:46:43 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59623&oldid=59622 * A * (+25) /* Unfinished list */
01:51:15 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59624&oldid=59623 * A * (+538) /* Queues */
01:51:22 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59625&oldid=59624 * A * (+25) /* Unfinished list */
01:58:47 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59626&oldid=59625 * A * (+436) /* Deques */
02:00:54 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59627&oldid=59626 * A * (+1) /* Pointers */
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02:08:25 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59628&oldid=59627 * A * (+436) /* Pointers */
02:11:16 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59629&oldid=59628 * A * (+63) /* The "thing" library */
02:12:52 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59630&oldid=59609 * A * (+46) /* Difficult */
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02:17:50 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59631&oldid=59629 * A * (+19) /* Shortcut */
02:29:28 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59632&oldid=59631 * A * (+96) /* Macros */
02:29:31 <shachaf> Is there a language where the maximum amount of stack space used by a procedure is known?
02:29:51 <shachaf> Presumably it wouldn't allow unbounded recursion, but unbounded recursion is bad anyway.
02:42:49 <shachaf> Oh, gcc has -fstack-usage, which is something.
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02:43:26 <shachaf> Of course I'd want it available as a constexpr, not post-compilation data.
02:51:28 <arseniiv> ( oh guys it seems A is seriously serious about that lang :D )
02:52:44 <arseniiv> (though I did mean not what he wrote of “dynamic macros”, I meant first-class macros modifiable at runtime)
02:54:01 <arseniiv> (will they be able to implement it also… and with using subpages for the code, if it wouldn’t be stored somewhere else)
02:56:20 <arseniiv> (hopefully the wiki won’t collapse on itself from that) oh okay it’s not that interesting at all
03:00:04 <arseniiv> hm suppose we have an infinite graph placed on a plane or another euclidean space, and we have a particle in each vertex
03:01:38 <arseniiv> then pick some direction, and move each particle to the adjacent vertex closest in direction to the one picked
03:02:43 <arseniiv> as the graph is infinite, we could have countably many directions to distinguish, so could this setting be interesting in dynamics?
03:05:15 <arseniiv> for the sake of computation, one could assign various actions to various particle mergers, also we could arrange particles only in several vertices, and not in all as I have previously suggested
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03:10:55 <arseniiv> also we may forbid moving a particle if it could only move “against the flow”, as when it have ended up in a vertex with only an edge going up, and we picked to go down
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03:12:10 <arseniiv> I feel I’m writing particularly ungrammatical today, sorry
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04:29:56 <shachaf> http://www.talchas.net/tape.c -- Turing machine in C using varargs
04:30:17 <shachaf> @tell ais523 http://www.talchas.net/tape.c
04:30:18 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59633&oldid=59316 * A * (+978) New idea
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04:31:46 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59634&oldid=59633 * A * (+2) terrible grammar
04:32:48 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59635&oldid=59634 * A * (+1) Final fix
04:33:06 <HackEso> j4cbo: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
04:40:31 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59636&oldid=59635 * A * (+0) /* Attempt */
04:41:02 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59637&oldid=59636 * A * (+35) /* Attempt */
04:43:29 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59638&oldid=59637 * A * (+21) /* Attempt */
04:45:20 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59639&oldid=59638 * A * (+1) /* Attempt */
04:48:44 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59640&oldid=59639 * A * (+0) Fit in the math operation style
04:53:45 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59641&oldid=59640 * A * (+30) Add more
04:55:19 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59642&oldid=59632 * A * (+35) /* Unfinished list */
04:57:04 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59643&oldid=59642 * A * (-35) /* Unfinished list */
05:14:17 <esowiki> [[EXAMPL]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=59644 * A * (+848) Created page with "[[EXAMPL]] stands for EXAMination Programming Language. This is made by [[User:A]], and it is inspired by the mispelled word of [[User:Helen]]'s 12th edit of [[bitch]]. This..."
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05:37:35 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59645&oldid=59643 * A * (+122) /* Loop constructs */
05:38:36 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59646&oldid=59645 * A * (+84) /* Other operators */
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05:49:10 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * EFHIII * New user account
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06:19:29 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59647&oldid=59641 * A * (+76) /* Attempt */
06:20:39 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59648&oldid=59647 * A * (+7) /* Attempt */
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06:49:49 <esowiki> [[EXAMPL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59649&oldid=59644 * A * (-60)
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07:18:45 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59650&oldid=59648 * A * (-61) /* Attempt */
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07:20:34 <ais523> <shachaf> Is there a language where the maximum amount of stack space used by a procedure is known? ← this is what my PhD thesis is about, specifically designing type systems to capture this concept
07:21:22 <shachaf> Oh man, I should've read that thesis.
07:21:29 <shachaf> Why does it need to be a type system?
07:22:48 <ais523> the main reason is so that you can statically verify that everything uses bounded stack space syntactically
07:23:26 <ais523> if you're OK with having it as a static analysis, you don't need the type system (but have to allow for potential verdicts of "this isn't finitely-bounded-stack any more" as a result of changing unrelated code)
07:24:33 <ais523> shachaf said 2h 50m 25s ago: http://www.talchas.net/tape.c ← I'm suspicious about that not working on x86_64, it should be possible to write a portable version using continuation passing style; if you don't have an infinitely growing stack then you can clearly only do it using parts of the stack above the stack pointer, in which case you don't need the varargs
07:26:55 <ais523> anyway, the goal of the project which lead to my thesis was to create a compiler where a) everything was statically allocated and b) you could implement a linker without having to recompile everything (i.e. object files can be treated as black boxes)
07:27:41 <ais523> also with higher-order functions and concurrency because otherwise it's too easy
07:28:27 <ais523> (the intended end goal was compilation to hardware, with "object files" being potentially representable as physical objects that you connect together with wires)
07:28:44 <ais523> however, what I mostly discovered was negative results
07:29:47 <shachaf> Ah, I guess you need to tag function pointers with the maximum possible stack size and so on.
07:30:12 <ais523> nah, the assumption is that everything is allocated statically, thus all functions have a maximum possible stack size of 0
07:30:20 <ais523> by everything we mean /everything/, even return addresses
07:30:36 <shachaf> Oh, that's why you're worried about concurrency.
07:30:53 <ais523> but in practice, on a CPU, you could use the stack and it would likely be more memory-efficient, because you'd only be storing the locals of the functions that were actually running
07:30:55 <shachaf> That seems more extreme than what I was thinking of.
07:31:08 <ais523> right, I think you're thinking of something less extreme than what I was working on
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07:31:46 <shachaf> Also this reminds me of the thing I was thinking of with implementing cheap userspace "threads" to use two stacks.
07:31:55 <shachaf> I don't know whether anyone has implemented that.
07:32:47 <ais523> don't lightweight cooperative threads /usually/ have a different stack for each thread and no other non-shared state?
07:33:21 <ais523> there are even functions like getcontext() and setcontext() in standard libraries for making implementing this easy
07:33:43 <shachaf> Yes (though you don't want to user POSIX ucontext because it isn't very lightweight, it does a system call).
07:34:28 <ais523> this is all down to how threads and signals interact
07:34:47 <shachaf> The problem is, you keep switching stacks and you keep taking cache misses on the whole new stack
07:34:55 <ais523> if you don't have the system call, you have to deal with signal handlers potentially running on an entirely random thread
07:34:59 <shachaf> Even parts of it that don't need to be saved across context switches, like regular function calls.
07:35:26 <ais523> which in turn means that you can't temporarily disable signals to do a pselect or something
07:35:37 <ais523> (although pselect doesn't play nicely with cooperative multithreading anyway)
07:36:05 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59651&oldid=59650 * A * (-72) /* Attempt */
07:36:30 <shachaf> Getting kind of annoyed of this A's edits
07:37:55 <ais523> we could do with a rule like "incomplete computational class proofs should not be more than a paragraph long"
07:38:08 <ais523> or maybe two paragraphs
07:38:18 <ais523> (I'm thinking about my own experience with incomplete computational class proofs)
07:38:36 <ais523> the problem is that User:A seems to be overly optimistic about what makes languages TC
07:39:05 <ais523> the overly chatty style is also a problem, though, people shouldn't really be using the wiki for thinking out loud
07:39:15 <ais523> a user talk page message could likely help if we could word it correctly
07:43:23 <shachaf> Anyway this two-stack things seems pretty reasonable to me
07:43:59 <shachaf> The thread stack only needs the things that need to be stored between context switches
07:47:35 <shachaf> I don't know whether anyone's done something like that?
07:48:04 <shachaf> The more extreme version would be to have the thread stack be a static size rather than a stack.
07:48:14 <shachaf> I think LLVM does that maybe.
07:51:11 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59652&oldid=59244 * A * (-1965) Work on pastebins
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07:51:45 <esowiki> [[Printscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59653&oldid=59652 * A * (+2) /* See Also */
07:51:58 <ais523> cooperative threading is something for which I'm unsure of the use case
07:52:13 <ais523> cooperative multithreading is useful but you still need a scheduler
07:52:22 <ais523> competitive/multiprocess threading is useful for performance reasons
07:52:33 <ais523> and coroutines are useful, but they're rather more constrained thatn cooperative threading
07:54:23 <shachaf> I mean, what I want is a nice way to express efficient concurrency in the nicest way.
07:54:33 <esowiki> [[Printscript 5]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59654&oldid=59193 * A * (-5539)
07:57:35 <esowiki> [[Printscript 9]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59655&oldid=59235 * A * (-10566)
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09:13:26 <esowiki> [[Printscript 13]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59656&oldid=59246 * A * (-17536) /* Implementation */
09:14:40 <esowiki> [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59657&oldid=59249 * A * (-319) Redirected page to [[User:A]]
09:35:41 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59658&oldid=59651 * A * (-1019) Give up.
09:37:36 <esowiki> [[Difficult]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59659&oldid=59646 * A * (-106) /* Unfinished list */
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09:43:30 <esowiki> [[Ja]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59660&oldid=56303 * Salpynx * (-57) /* Computational class */
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11:55:23 <wob_jonas> `pbflist https://pbfcomics.com/comics/command-respect/
11:55:24 <HackEso> pbflist https://pbfcomics.com/comics/command-respect/: shachaf Sgeo quintopia ion b_jonas Cale
15:28:16 <HackEso> olist 1154: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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21:02:51 <b_jonas> I think I'm experiencing software bugs with my phone
21:05:52 <oerjan> b_jonas: i vaguely recall you had some idea about doing the quine suite challenge in perl. well now there's a bounty offer of 250 rep if someone can beat my score with a non-esolang https://codegolf.meta.stackexchange.com/a/17353/
21:06:18 <oerjan> (and higher bounties if you can beat the esolang record)
21:08:51 <oerjan> my score was 1119 bytes because of the verbose lambda part so i wouldn't be surprised if perl can do better
21:09:11 <oerjan> (if you can get 3 quines at all)
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21:17:55 <b_jonas> so 250 rep for a shorter 3 quine. might be doable in perl. good to know of the bounty, thank you.
21:29:32 <HackEso> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ .
21:31:16 <oerjan> <wob_jonas> oerjan: IIRC the trick wasn't that jconn would use that parenthesis, it already did, but that you kept jconn in that list even when its hoster no longer ran it <-- i'm pretty sure one of the bots got a parenthesis as prefix because i suggested it. i assume it was jconn because idris-bot was already in other channels.
21:33:24 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/log/tip/bin/prefixes
21:35:49 <oerjan> oh i'm wrong, jconn was in `prefixes first
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21:39:15 <oerjan> looks like it was only a bit more than a year between them. felt longer probably because of all the mess of updating fungot while the parentheses were unbalanced
21:39:16 <fungot> oerjan: it is fnord, and the government that that is what, and what that will mean, and we are all grateful to the selection of the member trustees.
21:40:20 <b_jonas> oerjan: I think we've been using parenthesis and brackets as the prefix of J evaluator bots, both jeval.rb and NotJack's evaluator (but not buubot) for ages, since before I convinced anyone to bring one to #esoteric
21:40:47 <j-bot> b_jonas: whose prefix is left
21:41:14 <b_jonas> > 'whose prefix is greater'
21:41:16 <lambdabot> Perhaps you intended to use TemplateHaskell or TemplateHaskellQuotes
21:48:39 <oerjan> https://esolangs.org/logs/2014-03-13.html#lsm is where i suggested it for idris-ircslave, which it was called initially
21:50:32 <oerjan> it used > for a while first, which collided with lambdabot
21:51:41 <lambdabot> EGLL 312120Z 10014KT 5000 -SN BKN016 BKN021 01/M01 Q0985 TEMPO 4000 SN BKN014
21:51:44 <FireFly> the J evalbots is certainly where I first encountered unmatched brackets as prefix...
21:51:54 <oerjan> fizzie: that old log has a lot of "unexpected log event :("s, although looking at the surrounding discussion that may be something a troll/spammer did
21:52:04 <FireFly> b_jonas: I've always wondered if it's inspired by how APLs use ) for various not-code commands
21:52:29 <FireFly> (which, presumably, is because it can't be the start of a valid line of code)
21:53:02 <fizzie> oerjan: What was the link again?
21:53:04 <oerjan> or i assume it was converted from codu's logs, so something may have gone wrong there
21:53:14 <oerjan> https://esolangs.org/logs/2014-03-13.html
21:53:21 <b_jonas> FireFly: I don't know, I always used ] because J uses it as an identity verb, so most statements are actually still valid and mean the same if you prepend ] except that it undoes the part where the repl doesn't auto-print the value of assignments
21:53:35 <b_jonas> FireFly: but I can't remember if NotJack chose ) for his bot before or after that
21:53:51 <b_jonas> then somehow four other instances of my bot chose ) as the prefix, and one chose [
21:54:09 <FireFly> j-bot uses [ because tangentstorm used [ when he ran j-bot
21:54:37 <b_jonas> frankly I'm not even sure if NotJack's bot even used a short prefix
21:54:48 <b_jonas> so I might have just made up that part
21:55:02 <FireFly> but that makes sense, also now that you mention it I vaguely recall hearing that explanation before (about choosing [ and ] because they're identity)
21:55:32 <oerjan> fizzie: https://esolangs.org/logs/2014-03-13.html
21:55:48 <fizzie> oerjan: The logs are a mixture of codu logs with gaps filled from my personal ones. IIRC, "unexpected log event" is approximately "didn't match any of the regexps". I'll have a look and regenerate from the sources.
21:56:05 <fizzie> Once I get home and do some dinner, anyway.
22:00:26 <oerjan> looking it raw, it seems to correspond to NAMES :#esoteric
22:00:55 <oerjan> and happens on the line after each of our op actions
22:05:44 <oerjan> fizzie: oh and it's prefixed with > instead of <. my guess is that whichever client logged that does a NAMES after mode changes to check what has changed
22:07:13 <oerjan> although the result of it isn't listed
22:15:15 <HackEso> module//A module is like a vector space, except with a ring instead of a field.
22:15:25 <HackEso> busy beaver growth//No one can compute the length of a wisdom entry sufficient to explain busy beaver growth. \ 1209) <ais523_> Funge-98 has half the advantages of a nomic
22:15:26 <HackEso> gopher//Gopher is int-e's vision of the successor of HTTP/2. But zzo38 thought of it first. \ 1145) <zzo38> Despite the various chess variants (even Chess 2), even ordinary FIDE chess is a fine playable game. But so can others be!
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22:17:22 <esowiki> [[Eodermdrome]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59661&oldid=59612 * Oerjan * (+0) /* Example programs */ Case
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23:06:03 <oerjan> mezzacotta comic doesn't seem to be loading at all today
23:10:21 <fizzie> oerjan: Right. I could probably just ignore those in the formatted views.
23:12:14 <fizzie> Except I've left a huge mess in the local version of the repository I have. I was in the middle of migrating the zemhill BF joust stuff over to be part of the esolangs.org facilities, and then got sidetracked by something shiny, and now there's 30-odd files with uncommitted changes.
23:16:41 <b_jonas> fizzie: now you have 30 branches
23:23:09 <fizzie> It's a mixture of two entirely separate changes. I don't know how I've ended up here. I promise, I'm normally more reasonable when it comes to version control.
23:24:35 <fizzie> (Also gpg commit fails with "error: gpg failed to sign the data". I think I set this repository up to sign commits by default so that they get that little "verified" icon in GitHub, and now it's not working for some reason.
23:29:40 <fizzie> (Looks like the reason was a gpg-agent version mismatch.)
23:29:50 <b_jonas> fizzie: don't worry, version control lets you fix it
23:30:27 <b_jonas> heh, verified icon in GitHub
23:30:38 <b_jonas> are you also tweeting committs with a green checkmark?
23:32:52 <fizzie> I've not gone that far.
23:33:00 <fizzie> Did you know that fungot has a Twitter account?
23:33:00 <fungot> fizzie: i would be the first to have a learning and listening secretary of the
23:33:04 <fizzie> It's not been active for a long time.
23:35:20 <b_jonas> my hon. and learned friend fungot, can you tell me the url of your twitter account?
23:35:21 <fungot> b_jonas: but to fulfil the order given concurrently, and a number of, indeed, in the first four private members bill, the parliamentary and government work also leads jihad actions in the struggle to recruit to the full quota of staff.
23:36:35 <b_jonas> my hon. and learned friend fungot, with what hardness of toothbrush do you wash your teeth in the evening?
23:36:36 <fungot> b_jonas: has the hon. and learned friend the member for cardiff north ( anna mcmorrin, john mcnally, has announced the creation of
23:36:51 <HackEso> EARTH HAS 4 CORNER SIMULTANEOUS 4-DAY TIME CUBE IN ONLY 24 HOUR ROTATION. 4 CORNER DAYS, CUBES 4 QUAD EARTH. Bible A Lie & Word Is Lies. Navel Connects 4 Corner 4s. God Is Born Of A Mother - She Left Belly B. Signature. Your dirty lying teachers use only the midnight to midnight 1 day (ignoring 3 other days) Time to not foul (already wrong) bible time. Lie that corrupts earth you educated stupid fools.
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23:51:11 <oerjan> . o O ( while no one was looking, fizzie made 30 branches. and that's terrible. )