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00:15:53 <HackEso> html5 is something that should definitely not be parsed with regex
00:16:10 <HackEso> html5//html5 is something that should definitely not be parsed with regex.
00:32:01 <esowiki> [[Err]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61465 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+788) Created page with "'''Err''' is an esoteric programming language based on errors. ==Keywords== {| class="wikitable" |- ! Keyword !! Meaning |- | err || Catch an error. |- | throw || Throw an err..."
00:32:51 <esowiki> [[BrainCrash]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61466&oldid=61460 * Oerjan * (-15) Standard section name + template
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00:46:01 <esowiki> [[Err]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61467&oldid=61465 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+382)
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01:55:48 <esowiki> [[--Unless]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61468&oldid=57263 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+1)
02:06:41 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61469&oldid=61462 * A * (+166)
02:08:54 <esowiki> [[Volatile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61470&oldid=61277 * A * (+1757) Add implementation by Helen
02:09:30 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61471&oldid=61469 * A * (-3493) Clear page
02:12:37 <esowiki> [[JCLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61472&oldid=61449 * A * (+2) /* Syntax */
02:13:25 <esowiki> [[OISC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61473&oldid=61450 * A * (-10) Improved code representation
02:22:16 <esowiki> [[Volatile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61474&oldid=61470 * A * (-68) /* Number tricks */
02:27:20 <esowiki> [[Volatile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61475&oldid=61474 * A * (-17) /* Number tricks */
02:29:42 <esowiki> [[Volatile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61476&oldid=61475 * A * (-43) Improved algorithms
02:33:06 <esowiki> [[Volatile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61477&oldid=61476 * A * (+28) /* Number tricks */
02:37:37 <esowiki> [[JCLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61478&oldid=61472 * A * (+165) /* Syntax */
02:38:54 <esowiki> [[JCLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61479&oldid=61478 * A * (+61)
02:41:09 <esowiki> [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61480&oldid=61477 * A * (-1) /* Number tricks */
02:43:06 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61481&oldid=61471 * A * (+94) To clarify
02:47:14 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61482&oldid=61481 * A * (+70)
02:56:26 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61483&oldid=61458 * A * (+19) Remind us that what we are doing is equivalency, not just compiling.
02:58:04 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61484&oldid=61483 * A * (+206) /* [Ongoing] Equivalency between bitch and Home Row by User:Helen and User:A */
03:01:20 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61485&oldid=61484 * A * (+203) /* [Ongoing] Equivalency between bitch and Home Row by User:Helen and User:A */
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03:39:37 <esowiki> [[--Unless]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61486&oldid=61468 * A * (+1)
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04:48:33 <esowiki> [[Increment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61487&oldid=60458 * A * (+66) /* Partial Implementation */
04:52:08 <esowiki> [[Increment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61488&oldid=61487 * A * (+355) /* Partial Implementation */
04:54:18 <esowiki> [[Talk:Definer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61489&oldid=56728 * A * (-418) Blanked the page
04:54:56 <esowiki> [[Talk:Definer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61490&oldid=61489 * A * (+298) Undo revision 61489 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]])
05:05:00 <esowiki> [[Definer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61491&oldid=56749 * A * (+334) Add another 2 examples
05:05:57 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61492&oldid=61364 * A * (-224) /* Cheating Versions */
05:08:39 <esowiki> [[Definer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61493&oldid=61491 * A * (+230) /* Examples */
05:13:52 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61494&oldid=61485 * A * (+1) /* [Ongoing] Equivalency between bitch and Home Row by User:Helen and User:A */
05:48:31 <orin> https://i.redd.it/6qkjbtrf5iv21.jpg
05:48:34 <orin> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
05:50:25 <Hooloovoo> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
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07:33:53 <rdococ> HYAAAAAAAAAAAAAA! ~Link
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08:56:07 <esowiki> [[AT]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61495&oldid=61318 * IQBigBang * (+919)
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09:56:07 <esowiki> [[C()]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61496 * Rdococ * (+1773) error: called object C is not a function or function pointer
09:59:37 <esowiki> [[C()]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61497&oldid=61496 * Rdococ * (+0)
10:03:04 <esowiki> [[User:Rdococ]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61498&oldid=55323 * Rdococ * (+81) /* Esolangs of mine that I consider decent, or are yet unevaluated */ Added C()
10:04:53 <esowiki> [[C()]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61499&oldid=61497 * Rdococ * (+60) Added pronunciation.
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10:10:58 <esowiki> [[C()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61500&oldid=61499 * Rdococ * (-1815) rethinking this
10:12:39 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61501&oldid=61453 * YamTokTpaFa * (+187)
10:13:33 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61502&oldid=61501 * YamTokTpaFa * (+26)
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12:14:14 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61503&oldid=61492 * YamTokTpaFa * (+150)
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14:57:06 <esowiki> [[Oneline]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61504 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+843) Created page with "<b>Oneline</b> is an object-oriented esoteric programing language designed to be as compresed as posible. ==Instructions== {| class="wikitable" |- ! Character !! Function |- |..."
14:57:36 <esowiki> [[Oneline]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61505&oldid=61504 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+0) /* Instructions */
14:59:16 <esowiki> [[Oneline]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61506&oldid=61505 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+22)
15:06:58 <esowiki> [[Oneline]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61507&oldid=61506 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+78) /* Sintax */
15:07:34 <esowiki> [[Oneline]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61508&oldid=61507 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+6) /* Sintax */
15:10:41 <esowiki> [[Oneline]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61509&oldid=61508 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+115) /* Instructions */
15:13:01 <esowiki> [[Oneline]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61510&oldid=61509 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+95) /* Sintax */
15:15:12 <esowiki> [[C()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61511&oldid=61500 * Rdococ * (+1238) Readded page.
15:16:00 <orin> it's not "wall-clipping" it's "quantum tunnelling" lol
15:17:44 <esowiki> [[Oneline]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61512&oldid=61510 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+175) /* Sintax */
15:18:10 <esowiki> [[Oneline]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61513&oldid=61512 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+1) /* Sintax */
15:19:01 <esowiki> [[Oneline]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61514&oldid=61513 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+0) /* Sintax */
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15:19:59 <esowiki> [[Oneline]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61515&oldid=61514 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+57) /* Sintax */
15:20:11 <esowiki> [[Oneline]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61516&oldid=61515 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (-3) /* Sintax */
15:22:42 <esowiki> [[Oneline]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61517&oldid=61516 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+76) /* Instructions */
15:51:53 <esowiki> [[C()]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61518&oldid=61511 * Rdococ * (-6)
16:08:19 <HackEso> A metronome is an ancient and highly sophisticated instrument typically used in the player variety in conjunction with another, simpler instrument. hppavilion[1] is learning to play one. Taneb invented parts of it at regular intervals.
16:08:21 <HackEso> Tanebventions include necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, metar, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, Italian, the grace period, the limerick, ruin, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths or tanebventions: foods. He never invents anything involving sex.
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17:37:26 <HackEso> smlist: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale
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20:46:16 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Structuresend * New user account
20:51:06 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61519&oldid=61464 * Structuresend * (+181)
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21:34:45 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Blinry * New user account
21:35:06 <esowiki> [[Brainbot]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61520 * Structuresend * (+2790) Created page with "'''Brainbot''' is a programming language based on Brainfuck created by structuresend (Alex Costea), meant to be an easy and powerful model of computation. It uses 6 characters..."
21:36:38 <int-e> `cwlprits password
21:36:40 <HackEso> int-̈e fizzïe int-̈e int-̈e b_jonäs int-̈e int-̈e oerjän oerjän int-̈e int-̈e oerjän int-̈e oerjän oerjän oerjän int-̈e int-̈e oerjän oerjän shachäf oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän int-̈e shachäf shachäf oerjän boil̈y oerjän int-̈e int-̈e oerjän shachäf shachäf oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän gameman̈j int-̈e oerjän int-̈e oerjän mromän oerjän
21:37:12 <int-e> probably not my turn :)
21:38:01 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61521&oldid=61519 * Blinry * (+199) /* Introductions */ blinry
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21:39:44 <esowiki> [[User:Blinry]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61522 * Blinry * (+57) Created page with "Hi, I'm blinry! My homepage is [https://morr.cc morr.cc]."
21:40:54 <esowiki> [[Err]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61523&oldid=61467 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (-1170) Blanked the page
21:41:52 <esowiki> [[Brainbot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61524&oldid=61520 * Structuresend * (+114)
21:44:24 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Blinry * uploaded "[[File:Legit-hello.png]]": A "hello world" program writen in [[legit]].
21:44:54 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Blinry * uploaded "[[File:Legit-brainfuck.png]]": A fully-functioning Brainfuck interpreter written in [[legit]].
21:46:58 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61527&oldid=61361 * Structuresend * (+15) /* B */
21:48:27 <fizzie> `learn The password of the month has been replaced with a security key for protection against advanced persistent threats.
21:48:29 <HackEso> Relearned 'password': The password of the month has been replaced with a security key for protection against advanced persistent threats.
21:49:55 <b_jonas> where do I get the security key?
21:49:58 <HackEso> The password of the month has been replaced with a security key for protection against advanced persistent threats.
21:50:12 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: order: not found
21:55:02 <esowiki> [[Legit]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61528 * Blinry * (+925) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=legit |paradigms=imperative |author=[[User:blinry]] |year=[[:Category:2019|2019]] |typesys= |memsys=stack-based, tape-based |dimensions= |class=:Cat..."
21:55:15 <esowiki> [[((?)?)?]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61529 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+423) Created page with "'''((?)?)?''' is an esoteric programing language made by [[User:Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn]]. ==Memory Structure== In ((?)?)? there ar tree loctaions to store data: * The bit (a..."
21:55:31 <esowiki> [[Brainbot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61530&oldid=61524 * Structuresend * (+3)
21:56:04 <esowiki> [[((?)?)?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61531&oldid=61529 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+1) /* Memory Structure */
21:58:10 <esowiki> [[Brainbot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61532&oldid=61530 * Structuresend * (+21)
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22:00:10 <esowiki> [[Brainbot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61533&oldid=61532 * Structuresend * (+44)
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22:17:11 <esowiki> [[((?)?)?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61534&oldid=61531 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+613)
22:17:42 <fizzie> `welcome structuresend
22:17:43 <HackEso> structuresend: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
22:18:01 <esowiki> [[((?)?)?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61535&oldid=61534 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+0) /* Nor operator */
22:18:04 <fizzie> I mean, I guess that's a little redundant, it's clear you came from the wiki. But still.
22:19:23 <b_jonas> `learn The security key of the month is "suspicion mankind subdivision dial".
22:19:25 <HackEso> Learned 'security': The security key of the month is "suspicion mankind subdivision dial".
22:20:40 <b_jonas> The security key of the month has been replaced with a PIN code for protection against advanced persistent threats.
22:20:55 <b_jonas> or maybe with a security token
22:21:08 <fizzie> I've long thought about buying one of Yubico's YubiKeys, but it's just the littlest bit too expensive to get for no particular purpose.
22:22:04 <b_jonas> fizzie: I have one of these security key generator hardware fobs for online banking, with an LCD display that shows a number
22:22:13 <esowiki> [[((?)?)?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61536&oldid=61535 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+122) /* Concepts */
22:22:18 <fizzie> (For three different banks.)
22:22:29 <esowiki> [[Brainbot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61537&oldid=61533 * Structuresend * (+49)
22:22:38 <esowiki> [[((?)?)?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61538&oldid=61536 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+11) /* Concepts */
22:22:57 <fizzie> Actually two of them are like that, the third has a slot for the bank's debit card and I think that's what actually runs the stuff.
22:23:08 <fizzie> The two that don't have a smartcard reader are much smaller.
22:23:53 <b_jonas> Also, I have a proxy token that opens both the house door at home and three different doors in the office building at work. It still seems a bit futuristic to me that there's a single kind of token that's well-spread enough that I can use the same one at both places, independently installed.
22:24:36 <b_jonas> Just imagine if someone had a car and could use the same proxy token in the car key for such doors.
22:24:56 <b_jonas> I mean, car keys have had such a thing for a very long time, even before central locks.
22:25:13 <b_jonas> Used just for an immobilizer with a reader at the engine start keyhole.
22:25:52 <b_jonas> But these days they have like both a passive proxy token for that, and an active radio-frequency opener for the central locks of the car.
22:26:08 <b_jonas> Plus there are garage door openers, also with active radio-frequency stuff.
22:26:46 <b_jonas> and remotes for TV and radio
22:28:10 <fizzie> Well, these days you can also have your always-listening smart speaker unlock your door with a voice command.
22:28:21 <fizzie> (Potentially shouted by someone from outside the door.)
22:29:24 <b_jonas> I'd still prefer if they made building doors so that I can open them with a fucking ordinary metal key, because those are at least reliable, but apparently they don't want to do that,
22:29:45 <b_jonas> instead they only have the proxy token and a keypad with password
22:29:55 <b_jonas> both of which often have the hardware break down so they can't read
22:32:16 <esowiki> [[Brainbot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61539&oldid=61537 * Structuresend * (-54)
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22:42:34 <fizzie> I think I remember reading about a lock manufacturer that made one of those combined mechanic/electronic locks (like ABLOY PROTEC CLIQ) except one where the electricity for the electronics is generated from the mechanical motion of inserting the key.
22:42:54 <fizzie> IIRC, it was very fiddly, you had to insert the key just right (speedwise and such) for it to work.
22:44:03 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, we used to have those
22:44:20 <b_jonas> the electricity wasn't generated by the key
22:44:46 <b_jonas> the key just turned a switch that activated the same switch that you could also activate with the keypad password or the token, thus opening the magnetic lock
22:45:04 <b_jonas> even that is better than just the keypad and token, because it's more reliable
22:45:21 <fizzie> http://www.futureaccess.co.uk/PDF/locks/iLoq_C10S.2_lock_cylinder.pdf "The iLOQ C10S.2 lock cylinder is powered by harvesting electricity from inserting of the iLOQ K10S.1 key."
22:45:23 <b_jonas> but the best method is when the key opens the lock purely mechanically
22:45:27 <fizzie> Not sure if it was that one.
22:45:36 <b_jonas> I don't know why we can't just keep using that
22:46:31 <fizzie> I think because it's expensive to revoke keys in that model.
22:46:37 <fizzie> At least that's been my impression.
22:46:59 <b_jonas> so? these are low security locks where anyone can just watch people enter their code on the keypad, or tailgate
22:47:05 <b_jonas> they only get in the corridor, not farther
22:47:27 <b_jonas> and they almost never change the keypad code or revoke tokens
22:47:33 <b_jonas> so it's not like it matters
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22:47:49 <b_jonas> they're not like the apartment doors, where I do change the lock core after two lost keys
22:51:14 <fizzie> I don't know, I'm not responsible for managing any system of locks. I think they do want to at least make a best-effort attempt to keep unauthorized people out. But it's true that it's trivial to tailgate in here.
22:51:29 <b_jonas> fizzie: not even the one on your own home?
22:51:50 <b_jonas> or your bicycle or a locker or anything?
22:51:50 <fizzie> I guess I didn't really count that as a "system of locks".
22:52:03 <fizzie> I meant something more ambitious.
22:52:05 <b_jonas> well I have two locks on my apartment door, so that's a system
22:52:06 <Hooloovoo> it depends on how many locks you have on your house too
22:52:30 <b_jonas> and I partly managed the locks at my parent's house while I lived there
22:52:39 <b_jonas> since then both locks have been replaced
22:52:54 <fizzie> The downstairs bike rack cage has the same kind of token reader lock as the corridor doors, but it also has a regular 4-digit combination bike lock on the door as well.
22:53:06 <Hooloovoo> like, the house I grew up with has three doors, each with two cylinders
22:53:06 <fizzie> I don't know what's the story there, the extra lock had just appeared one day.
22:53:14 <b_jonas> I also manages some locks at the summer house of my grandmother, that our extended family uses
22:53:21 <b_jonas> I replaced two of the locks there and distributed keys
22:53:25 <b_jonas> I think that counts as a system
22:53:37 <b_jonas> because I replaced two different locks by a pair of twin locks with shared key
22:54:36 <b_jonas> here at this home so far all I had to do was distribute the existing keys of the existing locks
22:56:31 <b_jonas> but there are like a ton of different keys
22:58:32 <b_jonas> two for the apartment entrance, proxy token and keypad code for the house entrance, key for the postbox, a key for my storage space in the basement and two keys for the door to enter the basement itself (only one of them is usually locked),
22:59:23 <b_jonas> plus the key for the lock at the summer house that I mentioned, the key for my grandmother's house, and four keys and a proxy token for my parent's house
23:01:28 <b_jonas> I don't even have all keys. the summer house has like five keys and a code in total, even though I don't have copies of the other keys, and my parent's house have six keys.
23:24:23 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Structuresend * moved [[Brainbot]] to [[Promo]]: renamed language
23:25:14 <esowiki> [[Promo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61542&oldid=61540 * Structuresend * (-6)
23:26:10 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61543&oldid=61527 * Structuresend * (-3)
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23:49:33 <esowiki> [[((?)?)?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61544&oldid=61538 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+1362) /* Sintax */
23:52:12 <esowiki> [[((?)?)?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61545&oldid=61544 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+72) /* Symbols */
23:56:52 <esowiki> [[((?)?)?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61546&oldid=61545 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+35) /* Sintax */
00:18:09 <esowiki> [[((?)?)?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61547&oldid=61546 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+66) /* Hello, World! */
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00:33:07 <esowiki> [[C()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61548&oldid=61518 * Rdococ * (-1078) WIP
00:36:35 <rdococ> C() is a cool name for an esoteric language that tries to adapt first-class functions to C's way of doing things, although I'm not sure how I'd do it.
00:38:19 <rdococ> Does C++ have first-class functions?
00:38:46 <rdococ> I know there is a compiler extension for C that adds nested functions, but they can't exit their scope.
00:38:53 <shachaf> C also has first-class functions.
00:39:02 <shachaf> Or first-class function pointers, but that's all you need.
00:39:18 <rdococ> How can you create new functions using function pointers?
00:39:26 <b_jonas> C does have function pointers; C++ also has closures
00:40:18 <rdococ> I'm officially a dumbass. I remember reading, very recently, that C++ has closures. Looks like it didn't originally, but it does now.
00:40:39 <rdococ> (That's not to say it was that recent, it was at least 8 years ago, perhaps more than that.)
00:40:59 <b_jonas> rdococ: allocate executable memory, write macine code in it that runs function according to abi calling conventions (restore callee-saved registers if you modify them), cast pointer to first byte of instruction to the right king of function pointer
00:41:01 <kmc> rdococ: the old way in C++ is to make a class which implements operator() and also has member variables for whatever free variables the closure needs to capture
00:41:23 <kmc> b_jonas: but that's nasty and should never be necessary in well designed code
00:41:34 <kmc> rdococ: this is very cumbersome so C++11 added lambdas
00:41:50 <kmc> b_jonas: writable executable memory -- I'm gonna stop you right there
00:41:51 <b_jonas> I'd say that JIT is certainly overused
00:42:10 <kmc> if you are talking about an actual JIT, fine
00:42:19 <kmc> if you're just trying to use bare function pointers as closures, don't
00:42:33 <b_jonas> and some people think it's a silver bullet and call for it as a kind of premature optimization or when it doesn't help at all
00:42:45 <kmc> pass a (function pointer, void*) pair, or a pointer to an object with a virtual method, or any of a bunch of other essentially equivalent solutions
00:42:50 <b_jonas> but it's not true that it's never necessary
00:43:22 <rdococ> My original plan for C() supported first-class functions stored only on the stack. The idea was that functions that you send to other functions ("downward funargs") are easier to implement, but parts of the program that need to send functions upward would be converted to continuation passing style.
00:43:23 <shachaf> Did you know that if you link binary data into your program, with ld --format=binary, it'll automatically make the stack executable+writable?
00:43:27 <b_jonas> you shouldn't usee them instead of just closures
00:43:37 <kmc> C++ lambdas are pretty fancy. they can capture by copy, move, or reference, and (starting in C++14) they can be polymorphic
00:43:45 <kmc> shachaf: no... why...
00:45:17 <rdococ> However, I think I want to apply the basic idea of "CPS for upward funargs" to a slightly higher level language instead.
00:45:35 <shachaf> Because every object you link has to have a special symbol or something to indicate it's OK with not having an executable stack.
00:45:49 <shachaf> If anything is missing that symbol, the linker automatically makes your stack executable.
00:46:16 <kmc> thanks linker. thinker
00:46:31 <b_jonas> well sure, that's necessary for backwards compatibility
00:46:50 <shachaf> You can pass -z noexecstack if you want to (that's what I'm doing).
00:46:59 <kmc> what are you making?
00:47:55 <shachaf> A program with a UI that embeds a font into the executable.
00:48:17 <shachaf> And maybe other things. I just wanted to see what it would take to make it standalone.
00:50:32 <kmc> rdococ: clang also adds yet another form of first class functions ("blocks") to C and ObjC and ObjC++ and maybe regular C++
00:50:49 <kmc> those have a fairly complicated ABI which is tied to the ObjC runtime
00:51:01 <kmc> and I think they only have dynamic dispatch
00:51:25 <kmc> whereas C++ lambdas are compatible with the "zero-overhead" static polymorphism style of modern C++
00:51:46 <kmc> so you can apply a bunch of high-er-order combinators like map, filter, etc. and get code that compiles down to a single flat loop
00:52:17 <esowiki> [[Promo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61549&oldid=61542 * Structuresend * (+31)
00:52:34 <kmc> every C++ lambda has its own, un-nameable type which subclasses an appropriate instantiation of std::function
00:52:49 <kmc> for dynamic polymorphism you upcast a reference-to-lambda into a &std::function
00:53:37 <kmc> for static polymorphism you call a function template, implicitly instantiating one of the template parameters at the specific lambda's type
00:53:52 <kmc> this is also why 'auto' is an essential part of C++11 and not just a convenience
00:54:33 <kmc> it allows you to have local variables whose types are these un-nameable things
00:55:28 <shachaf> that's why my program is written in c
00:55:57 <kmc> Rust works much the same way, and also in Rust, every non-lambda function has its own type as well, and that type has zero size (because it has no captures, and because you know which function to call from the type itself)
00:56:37 <kmc> I don't recall how C++ handles that but anyway, it allows you to instantiate those same HOFs on a named, non-capturing function without creating a function pointer, which would actually cause more overhead than the lambda way
01:04:17 <esowiki> [[User:Blinry]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61550&oldid=61522 * Blinry * (+18)
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01:12:04 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61551&oldid=61543 * Blinry * (+12) +legit
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01:15:02 <esowiki> [[Legit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61552&oldid=61528 * Blinry * (+145) Added categories!
01:16:54 <sombrero> Pardon the interruption, what is the computational power of a markup language , adding only a conditional IF ? inthe spirit of https://esolangs.org/wiki/Wiki_Cyclic_Tag
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02:07:10 <esowiki> [[Teg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61553&oldid=60986 * A * (+64)
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02:37:17 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61554&oldid=59418 * A * (+12301) Copy the whole thing here for making my own golfing language
02:51:21 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61555&oldid=61554 * A * (-203)
03:02:34 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[Err]]": Author request: content before blanking was: "'''Err''' is an esoteric programming language based on errors. ==Keywords== {| class="wikitable" |- ! Keyword !! Meaning |- | err || Catch an error. |- | throw || Throw an error. |- | inport || Inport a library. |} ==Sint..."
03:12:16 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61556&oldid=61555 * A * (-12098) Blanked the page
03:15:58 <esowiki> [[Brianfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61557&oldid=55758 * A * (-31)
03:16:20 <esowiki> [[Briefscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61558&oldid=55991 * A * (-29)
03:16:35 <esowiki> [[Frums]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61559&oldid=56780 * A * (-25)
03:17:02 <esowiki> [[Golfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61560&oldid=59707 * A * (-30) /* Partial implementation in C++ */
03:17:28 <esowiki> [[Losescript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61561&oldid=55726 * A * (-30)
03:19:09 <esowiki> [[Losescript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61562&oldid=61561 * A * (+30) Sorry for accidentally editing this page
03:19:27 <esowiki> [[SimpleScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61563&oldid=57041 * A * (-30)
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06:18:30 <Sgeo__> The Shaders on ShaderToy are 4 dimensional (with time as a dimension). Wonder how difficult it would be to rotate some
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10:12:52 <esowiki> [[Minic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61565&oldid=61350 * A * (+1013)
10:17:05 <esowiki> [[Minic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61566&oldid=61565 * A * (+316)
10:18:03 <esowiki> [[Minic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61567&oldid=61566 * A * (+38)
10:19:10 <esowiki> [[Minic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61568&oldid=61567 * A * (+8)
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10:22:34 <esowiki> [[Minic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61569&oldid=61568 * A * (+84)
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12:11:27 <esowiki> [[Talk:Text]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61570&oldid=54002 * A * (+199) /* txeT */
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16:22:04 <JRT> sup my ppls
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19:17:15 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61571&oldid=61521 * Sollyucko * (+187) Added myself
19:20:16 <esowiki> [[BareMinimum]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61572&oldid=60805 * Sollyucko * (-38) Fixed typo & formatting
19:24:58 <esowiki> [[((?)?)?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61573&oldid=61547 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (-121) /* Nor operator */
19:25:19 <esowiki> [[User:Sollyucko]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61574 * Sollyucko * (+67) Created page with "[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Sollyucko wp:en:User:Sollyucko]"
19:25:59 <esowiki> [[Folders]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61575&oldid=47151 * Rottytooth * (-149) removed dead link
19:27:50 <esowiki> [[((?)?)?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61576&oldid=61573 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+30) /* Symbols */
19:30:36 <esowiki> [[((?)?)?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61577&oldid=61576 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+97) /* Groups */
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19:32:12 <esowiki> [[((?)?)?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61578&oldid=61577 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (-139) /* Examples */
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19:41:42 <esowiki> [[((?)?)?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61579&oldid=61578 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+82)
19:49:59 <b_jonas> ais523: have you got any new results on that letter rearrangement problem?
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20:10:03 <esowiki> [[Run On Off]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61580 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+301) Created page with "Run On Off is an [[meta-language]] and [[matrioshka language]] designed so it can be interpreted with just an interruptor that turn on/off a light, the human brain and a paper..."
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21:52:16 <b_jonas> am I the only one to wonder why the ICFP contest for this year is not announced yet?
21:52:26 <b_jonas> has nobody volunteered to organize it?
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22:57:08 <oerjan> . o O ( the contest is dysfunctional )
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23:24:19 <esowiki> [[Run On Off]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61581&oldid=61580 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+184) /* Syntax */
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23:38:05 <esowiki> [[Run On Off]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61582&oldid=61581 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+426) /* Syntax */
23:39:49 <esowiki> [[Run On Off]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61583&oldid=61582 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+20) /* Syntax */
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00:09:03 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61584&oldid=61551 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+14) /* Non-alphabetic */
00:11:33 <esowiki> [[((?)?)?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61585&oldid=61579 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+13) /* Sintax */
00:13:15 <esowiki> [[((?)?)?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61586&oldid=61585 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+0) /* Symbols */
00:17:36 <esowiki> [[((?)?)?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61587&oldid=61586 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+94) /* Examples */
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02:19:47 <esowiki> [[Talk:Definer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61588&oldid=61490 * A * (+169)
02:21:27 <esowiki> [[Definer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61589&oldid=61493 * A * (-8) Fix invalid program descriptions
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07:22:41 <esowiki> [[Drive-In Window]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61590&oldid=60952 * A * (+339) Made a partial proof
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07:28:14 <esowiki> [[Drive-In Window]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61591&oldid=61590 * A * (+440) /* Computational class */
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07:29:31 <esowiki> [[Drive-In Window]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61592&oldid=61591 * A * (+124) /* Computational class */
07:32:31 <esowiki> [[Drive-In Window]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61593&oldid=61592 * A * (+58) /* Computational class */
07:34:35 <esowiki> [[Drive-In Window]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61594&oldid=61593 * A * (-54) Simplify proof (the menu is useless)
07:38:14 <esowiki> [[Drive-In Window]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61595&oldid=61594 * A * (-38) /* Computational class */
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11:57:59 <myname> did https://morr.cc/legit/ already was discussed here?
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12:01:21 <int-e> I missed it, so thanks.
12:04:21 <myname> it does have a wiki entry, i assumed whoever wrote this also went by here
12:11:40 <int-e> The edits went unnoticed, I guess. No discussion here so far.
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12:28:03 <wob_jonas> myname: interesting. so it doesn't just store the state under version control like hackeso or wikiplia do, but the version history actually matters in ways that it shouldn't, it's not used as just a history
12:28:12 <wob_jonas> the only thing I recall that's like that is `list
12:29:27 <myname> i like the argument of it being not being able to be version controlled via git
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12:31:07 <wob_jonas> myname: it could be if we could just get http://math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/git-extensions to work
12:31:50 <myname> we could also use pijul!
12:38:44 <Taneb> I was talking about it in another channel yesterday
12:40:31 <myname> i really want to use it, but i am stuck with git at work and way too lazy to learn two drastically different approaches
12:45:21 <Taneb> Hmm, I had a probably terrible idea for a VCS recently
12:48:10 <Taneb> wDon't pretend there's any sort of linearity
12:48:24 <Taneb> Each commmit specifies a set of previous commits it depends on
12:48:47 <int-e> . o O ( seems to me you're reinventing darcs )
12:50:12 <int-e> Though the darcs repository is still sequential, hence all the mess with commutation.
12:51:05 <Taneb> I think I'm trying to use Git in a weird way
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12:54:45 <int-e> git is flexible enough to support being used in weird ways ;)
12:55:26 <int-e> Though I guess making a soup of initial commits and a single merge commit is kind of difficult.
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13:00:32 <Lykaina> making an octal-based language
13:01:35 <Lykaina> 4 octal "digits" containing 16 commands and a 1-byte payload
13:02:15 <myname> you need to be way more specific. so far it just sounds like you are creating assembly
13:03:26 <Lykaina> 16 commands is not assembly
13:06:02 <Lykaina> trying to figure out what the 16 commands should be
13:06:20 <wob_jonas> Taneb: welcome to the club. ais523 and me also have possibly terrible ideas for VCS
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13:07:44 <wob_jonas> ais523's idea is to write an entirely new one, and call it scapegoat rather than aivcs; my idea is to extend svn to turn it to a distributed version control system (with limitations)
13:09:49 <wob_jonas> Lykaina: 16 commands, 1 byte long operand? like https://esolangs.org/wiki/Viktor%27s_amazing_4-bit_processor ?
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13:31:06 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * TonyBrown148 * New user account
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14:50:40 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61596&oldid=60951 * A * (+104) Add a "better" version of the one in the tutorial
14:54:33 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61597&oldid=61596 * A * (+17) /* Fizzbuzz Program */
14:55:10 <esowiki> [[Keg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61598&oldid=61597 * A * (+69) Add a spec
14:56:31 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61599&oldid=61598 * A * (+111) /* Fizzbuzz Program (loops up to 100) */
14:56:59 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61600&oldid=61599 * A * (+19) /* Cat Program */
15:03:51 <esowiki> [[Promo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61601&oldid=61549 * Structuresend * (+26)
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15:15:16 <esowiki> [[Promo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61602&oldid=61601 * Structuresend * (+19) /* Busy Beaver lower bounds */
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16:22:33 <esowiki> [[RarVM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61603&oldid=61380 * Void * (+40)
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16:53:04 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * JussefSwissen * New user account
16:55:43 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61604&oldid=61571 * JussefSwissen * (+238)
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17:19:33 <esowiki> [[Pi(e)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61605 * Areallycoolusername * (+202) Created page with "Pi(e) is an esoteric programming language based on the product of the formula, pi(e) or pi times e. == Specifics == This language is based on the first 100 digits of pi, times..."
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20:10:28 <esowiki> [[((?)?)?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61606&oldid=61587 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+0) /* Full adder */
20:19:16 <esowiki> [[((?)?)?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61607&oldid=61606 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+142) /* Symbols */
20:20:05 <esowiki> [[((?)?)?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61608&oldid=61607 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+17) /* Cat */
20:25:15 <esowiki> [[((?)?)?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61609&oldid=61608 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+61) /* Half adder */
20:27:21 <esowiki> [[((?)?)?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61610&oldid=61609 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+19) /* Half adder */
20:46:56 <esowiki> [[((?)?)?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61611&oldid=61610 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+255) /* Code snipets */
20:47:43 <esowiki> [[((?)?)?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61612&oldid=61611 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+1) /* Half adder */
20:51:30 <esowiki> [[((?)?)?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61613&oldid=61612 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (-4) /* Code snipets */
20:52:35 <esowiki> [[((?)?)?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61614&oldid=61613 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+0) /* Groups */
20:53:18 <esowiki> [[((?)?)?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61615&oldid=61614 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+1) /* Groups */
20:53:45 <esowiki> [[((?)?)?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61616&oldid=61615 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+1) /* Nor operator */
20:55:33 <esowiki> [[((?)?)?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61617&oldid=61616 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+1) /* Code snipets */
20:57:35 <esowiki> [[((?)?)?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61618&oldid=61617 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+17) /* Half adder */
21:04:20 <esowiki> [[((?)?)?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61619&oldid=61618 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+93) /* Symbols */
21:15:38 <esowiki> [[((?)?)?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61620&oldid=61619 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+120) /* Code snipets */
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21:20:00 <esowiki> [[((?)?)?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61621&oldid=61620 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+2) /* Memory Structure */
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22:43:22 <MilkyWay90> Would anybody like to program in Turing Machine But Way Worse?
22:45:04 <int-e> https://github.com/MilkyWay90/Turing-Machine-But-Way-Worse I guess?
22:45:51 <int-e> tio.run is blank without javascript.
22:46:47 <MilkyWay90> Then how did you get to the github page
22:47:17 <int-e> by googling the language name
22:47:36 <int-e> or duckduckgoing fwiw
22:48:31 <MilkyWay90> Anyways gtg make it print out "esoteric"
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23:01:26 <int-e> Not sure about the "way worse"... it's stuck with a binary alphabet, but that's fairly standard. From a programming language perspective the fact that I/O is not interactive may be awkward.
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23:24:17 <int-e> MilkyWay90: you'll notice this is a slow channel at most times
23:25:06 <int-e> Anyway, I had one comment while you were gone: Not sure about the "way worse"... it's stuck with a binary alphabet, but that's fairly standard. From a programming language perspective the fact that I/O is not interactive may be awkward.
23:26:00 <MilkyWay90> The I/O was made for codegolf.stackexchange.com
23:28:30 <int-e> It's really more of an observation than a complaint... we have a few esoteric languages with no interactive I/O.
23:30:26 <int-e> Oh, there are more trivial restrictions: if the input consists of many zero bytes a program won't be able to tell that apart from an empty tape.
23:30:50 <int-e> (8-bit Brainfuck has similar problems.)
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00:11:31 <cactus5> Hello! Could someone hint me one what esolang is this code from? :
00:11:37 <cactus5> M73 P0 R2 M201 X9000 Y9000 Z500 E10000 M203 X500 Y500 Z12 E120 M204 P2000 R1500 T2000 M205 X10.00 Y10.00 Z0.20 E2.50 M205 S0 T0 M107 M115 U3.1.0 M83 M204 S2000 T1500
00:12:05 <cactus5> oh \n didn't paste ... sry
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00:16:06 * oerjan doesn't recognize that
00:16:36 <lambdabot> ENVA 032350Z 30010KT 9999 FEW047 OVC064 03/M02 Q1004 RMK WIND 670FT 31015KT
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01:00:06 <fizzie> Looks very much like G-code except without any G commands.
01:00:37 <fizzie> In particular, I think "M115 U3.1.0" is Prusa's "print firmware version" special.
01:00:59 <kmc> I kind of think it is G code
01:01:04 <kmc> in some form
01:01:50 <fizzie> If it's not "real" Gcode, it's at least clearly inspired by.
01:01:55 <fizzie> Oh, they're not here any more.
01:02:10 <fizzie> Well, you win some, you lose some.
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01:08:33 <oerjan> . o O ( dog star? you can't be sirius. )
01:46:48 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61622&oldid=61600 * A * (+213) /* 99 Bottles of Beer Program */
01:58:38 <esowiki> [[Drive-In Window]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61623&oldid=61595 * Oerjan * (-776) Sorry, but it's really not TC.
02:00:32 <esowiki> [[Keg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61624&oldid=61622 * A * (+215) /* 99 Bottles of Beer Program */
02:01:56 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61625&oldid=61624 * A * (+13) /* 99 Bottles of Beer Program */
02:16:41 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61626&oldid=61604 * TonyBrown148 * (+219)
02:23:12 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61627&oldid=61625 * A * (-213) trivial
02:31:18 <esowiki> [[Keg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61628&oldid=61627 * A * (+42) /* Fibonacci Numbers */
02:37:32 <zzo38> I changed my NNTP server to return a 503 error instead of 500 for the NEWGROUPS command.
02:39:08 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61629&oldid=61503 * A * (+34) /* Karma */
02:44:59 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61630&oldid=61628 * A * (+40) /* Truth-machine */
02:48:44 <zzo38> (The RFC requires that the NEWGROUPS command is implemented if reader capabilities are available, but does not require that this command lists newsgroups that the server does not know the creation date of. Since I am not keeping track of creation dates for newsgroups, I just put 503 instead.)
02:55:24 <esowiki> [[Keg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61631&oldid=61630 * A * (+109) /* Infinite loop(very trivial) */
02:57:31 <esowiki> [[Keg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61632&oldid=61631 * A * (-55) /* Ongoing code snippet to input an integer */
03:03:25 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61633&oldid=61632 * A * (+107) /* One-line integer input */
03:18:13 <esowiki> [[Keg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61634&oldid=61633 * A * (+96) /* _ re-written in Keg */
03:19:07 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61635&oldid=61436 * A * (+95) /* Julia */
03:21:15 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61636&oldid=61635 * A * (+4) /* Keg */
03:21:29 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61637&oldid=61634 * A * (+4) /* Deadfish */
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03:27:29 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61638&oldid=61637 * A * (+247) Computational class
03:29:43 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61639&oldid=61638 * A * (-28) Wait a second, it is too complex to be a Turing tarpit.
03:31:15 <esowiki> [[Works in progress]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61640&oldid=61280 * A * (+10)
03:35:22 <esowiki> [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61641&oldid=61339 * A * (+6) It is boring, so I will comment it out.
03:35:34 <esowiki> [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61642&oldid=61641 * A * (+1)
03:42:26 <zzo38> I also recently fixed a error where it would not work properly if a command included trailing spaces.
03:42:38 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61643&oldid=61639 * A * (+326) /* Non-cheating variation */
03:43:09 <esowiki> [[Keg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61644&oldid=61643 * A * (-1) /* Explanation */
03:43:38 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61645&oldid=61644 * A * (-70) trivial
03:46:09 <esowiki> [[User:TonyBrown148]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61646 * TonyBrown148 * (+127) Created page with "I am TonyBrown148. The creator of TBF TBF BF --- -- < < > >+ ; , if current cell is 0 and . otherwise | [ || ]"
03:46:40 <esowiki> [[User:TonyBrown148]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61647&oldid=61646 * TonyBrown148 * (-2)
03:56:56 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61648&oldid=61645 * JonoCode9374 * (-76) This version of Keg won't be rewritten... Instead, a new improved version of Keg is being worked on.
04:14:45 <esowiki> [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61649&oldid=59422 * TonyBrown148 * (+623) Add TonyBrown148's Attempt
04:15:38 <esowiki> [[BF instruction minimalization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61650&oldid=61649 * TonyBrown148 * (+18) add some information
04:16:31 <esowiki> [[BF instruction minimalization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61651&oldid=61650 * TonyBrown148 * (+0) /* Step 3(Merge I/O) */ Delete a space
04:18:55 <esowiki> [[BF instruction minimalization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61652&oldid=61651 * TonyBrown148 * (+12) /* Step 3(Merge I/O) */ Changed the phrase because ; makes the text bold.
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05:32:42 <HackEso> [U+2329 LEFT-POINTING ANGLE BRACKET]
05:33:34 <orin> WHY IS IT WIDE
05:46:52 <esowiki> [[Keg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61653&oldid=61648 * A * (-2) /* Deadfish */
05:55:48 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61654&oldid=61653 * JonoCode9374 * (-2) /* Deadfish */ - - > Ascii code for B is 64.
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05:56:53 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61655&oldid=61654 * JonoCode9374 * (+1) /* Deadfish */ realised I should have used @
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06:03:59 <orin> my font now encodes lowercase digits! 𝟷𝟸𝟹𝟺𝟻𝟼𝟽𝟾𝟿
06:04:12 <esowiki> [[Keg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61656&oldid=61655 * A * (+122) I had it 1 byte shorter
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06:54:30 <esowiki> [[Keg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61657&oldid=61656 * A * (+113) /* Deadfish */
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06:56:48 <esowiki> [[Bootstrap]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61658&oldid=60470 * A * (-2) grm
06:58:22 <esowiki> [[Bootstrap]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61659&oldid=61658 * A * (+13) Make the definition general
06:58:51 <esowiki> [[Bootstrap]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61660&oldid=61659 * A * (+4) Another grm
07:00:57 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61661&oldid=61657 * A * (+15) Specify
07:05:20 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61662&oldid=61661 * A * (+62) /* Factorial */
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07:21:20 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61663&oldid=61662 * A * (+76) /* User Defined Functions */
07:29:18 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61664&oldid=61663 * A * (+108) Improved command glossary
07:30:15 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61665&oldid=61664 * A * (-11) Shorten
07:31:10 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61666&oldid=61665 * A * (-33) /* User Defined Functions */
07:38:49 <esowiki> [[Keg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61667&oldid=61666 * JonoCode9374 * (+216) /* User Defined Functions */ - - added a little note
07:40:31 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61668&oldid=61667 * JonoCode9374 * (+13) /* User Defined Functions */ formatting improval
07:44:14 <esowiki> [[Keg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61669&oldid=61668 * JonoCode9374 * (+49) /* Example Programs */ Dice simulator
07:54:31 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61670&oldid=61669 * A * (-4) /* User Defined Functions */
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09:22:43 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61671&oldid=61670 * A * (+1) Wrong order
09:26:00 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61672&oldid=61671 * A * (+72) /* Dice simulator */
09:32:26 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61673&oldid=61672 * A * (+96) /* Dice simulator */
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10:46:49 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61674&oldid=61673 * A * (+5) /* Dice simulator */
10:52:24 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61675&oldid=61674 * A * (+0) Whoops, the compilation specification is in the wrong order.
11:13:41 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61676&oldid=61675 * A * (+0) /* Truth-machine */
11:13:52 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61677&oldid=61676 * A * (+0) /* One-line integer input */
11:14:08 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61678&oldid=61677 * A * (+0) /* Factorial */
11:14:23 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61679&oldid=61678 * A * (-1) /* Digital root calculator */
11:17:58 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61680&oldid=61679 * A * (+0) /* Fizzbuzz Program (loops up to 100) */
11:21:01 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61681&oldid=61680 * A * (+2) /* Deadfish */
11:24:31 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61682&oldid=61681 * A * (+44) /* One-line integer input */
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11:33:39 <esowiki> [[Keg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61683&oldid=61682 * A * (-4) /* Truth-machine */
11:38:00 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61684&oldid=61629 * A * (-5) /* Keg */
11:39:10 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61685&oldid=61636 * A * (-3) /* Keg */
11:40:17 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61686&oldid=61363 * A * (+29) /* ISCOM */
11:51:59 <esowiki> [[Keg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61687&oldid=61683 * A * (+42) /* Dice simulator */
11:52:46 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61688&oldid=61687 * A * (-2) /* Looping counter */
12:07:26 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61689&oldid=61688 * A * (+23) /* Looping counter */
12:09:07 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61690&oldid=61689 * A * (+0) Capitalize all ascii 's
12:14:05 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61691&oldid=61690 * A * (-327) /* Non-cheating variation */
12:16:26 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61692&oldid=61691 * A * (-20) Shorten
12:26:11 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61693&oldid=61692 * A * (+420) /* Fibonacci Numbers */
12:33:30 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61694&oldid=61693 * A * (+233) Trivial, and add how to implement logical operators.
12:35:25 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61695&oldid=61694 * A * (+98) /* Logical operators */
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13:31:31 <esowiki> [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61696&oldid=61652 * TonyBrown148 * (+167) /* TonyBrown148's attempt */ Change |
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13:40:37 <esowiki> [[Pxem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61697&oldid=61448 * YamTokTpaFa * (+6) /* Other example */
13:41:37 <esowiki> [[Pxem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61698&oldid=61697 * YamTokTpaFa * (-25) /* Examples */
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13:48:14 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61699&oldid=61686 * YamTokTpaFa * (+388)
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14:01:14 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61700&oldid=61695 * A * (+2) /* Logical operators */
14:04:36 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61701&oldid=61700 * A * (-83) /* Fibonacci Numbers */
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14:18:55 <ais523> how is the Great Firefox Outage of 2019 getting on?
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14:34:52 <esowiki> [[History (programming language)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61702 * A * (+1026) Add an esoteric data structure AND a joke language.
14:34:56 <ais523> hmm, they found an interesting way to do an emergency fix; there's an optional (enablable/disablable in preferences) feature that allows the mozilla devs to run studies, and they created a "study" that fixes the certificate issue (presumably with an explicit whitelisting)?
14:35:53 <esowiki> [[Esoteric data structure]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61703&oldid=59923 * A * (+50) Add my idea.
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14:38:56 <esowiki> [[History (programming language)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61704&oldid=61702 * A * (+331) /* The History data structure */
14:39:10 <esowiki> [[History (programming language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61705&oldid=61704 * A * (+13) /* An example session of History */
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14:41:13 <esowiki> [[History (programming language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61706&oldid=61705 * A * (-24) /* An example session of History */
14:45:05 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61707&oldid=61135 * A * (+99) /* General languages */
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14:53:04 <rain1> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsXpLx4soQY
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15:40:15 <fizzie> ais523: Looking at the "study" XPI file, what it does is it injects a certificate to the browser's certificate store, and then triggers a re-verification of (extension?) signatures: http://ix.io/1I13/js
15:42:32 <ais523> fizzie: that makes sense
15:42:55 <fizzie> ("doTheThing" is a good name for a function.)
15:43:10 <ais523> although now I'm wondering how they ensured the extensions were signed by that certificate, maybe there's some sort of indirection involved
16:01:04 <int-e> (pun fully intended)
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16:23:18 <zzo38> I am using a old enough version of Firefox that I am unaffected.
16:24:54 <ais523> zzo38: well, it's about signing on extensions; if you don't use extensions or if you don't use Mozilla's mechanism for signing them, you won't be affected
16:26:32 <ais523> (normally I wouldn't add the second part of that disjunction, but if there are people out there who use Firefox extensions but some unusual method of loading them, I'd consider zzo38 to have a fairly high probability of being one of them)
16:27:29 <int-e> Hmm not sure how I'm escaping this.
16:28:24 <int-e> Maybe because Firefox has been running for a while?
16:29:28 <zzo38> I do use many extensions, but do not have updates and signing checking of extensions enabled (I have some unsigned extensions, since sometimes I have to modify them)
16:31:55 <int-e> "The fix will be automatically applied in the background within the next few hours." <-- not sure how I'm supposed to feel about this statement.
16:33:45 <int-e> automatic updates are off here as well (which I hope invalidates that statement as well)
16:35:42 <int-e> And it seems that the lack of automatic updates keeps the installed addons functioning as well.
16:35:47 <ais523> int-e: the current fix is based on a run-arbitrary-code-via-telemetry feature that can be enabled and/or disabled
16:35:58 <ais523> it's separate from the updates, but someone who disables updates would probably disable that to
16:36:57 <fizzie> int-e: The setting should be under Privacy & Security / Firefox Data Collection and Use / Allow Firefox to send technical and interaction data to Mozilla / Allow Firefox to install and run studies.
16:37:02 <int-e> I think I went through everything with "telemetry" in the name recently and disabled that.
16:37:37 <int-e> yeah that's disabled. thanks!
16:38:05 <int-e> (I seem to recall that Debian disables that one by default anyway.)
16:39:43 <fizzie> "Data reporting is disabled for this build configuration"
16:42:20 <fizzie> Looks like my Firefox installation (which I don't really use) actually has one extension that's been deactivated due to "not meet[ing] current Firefox standards", which might even be from that bug.
16:43:05 <fizzie> (It's the "xul-ext-mozvoikko" package that contains a Finnish spell-checker, no idea why I've got that installed.)
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16:57:21 <b_jonas> as for firefox, (1) a few months ago the firefox on my windows work machine reverted to using hungarian messages in the UI, despite that I've switched it to english previously. apparently it listens to the _other_ about:config variable that tells the UI language since an update.
16:57:53 <b_jonas> and (2) when I complained about something not working in the online banking, phone support just told me the generic response that I should try to use chrome as the browser
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17:13:02 <fizzie> Heh, that reminds me -- I tried out LANGUAGE=en_GB:en:fi as a misguided attempt to say "speak English, but fall back to Finnish if available and English isn't". But of course most programs don't explicitly have message files for English (it's just the untranslated messages are in English), so the end result was everything started to speak Finnish.
17:13:34 <fizzie> So I undid that, but I had installed a kernel update in the meanwhile, and that involves updating grub, so the boot menu was in Finnish all the way until the next update.
17:13:40 <b_jonas> fizzie: isn't it that most programs don't even care about the LANGUAGE var, and use only the LC_MESSAGE locale?
17:13:57 <fizzie> Anything using gettext will care about LANGUAGE.
17:14:50 <fizzie> https://www.gnu.org/software/gettext/manual/html_node/The-LANGUAGE-variable.html
17:14:56 <zzo38> Can you specify a "i-default" language?
17:15:26 <fizzie> "Not all programs have translations for all languages. By default, an English message is shown in place of a nonexistent translation. If you understand other languages, you can set up a priority list of languages. This is done through a different environment variable, called LANGUAGE. GNU gettext gives preference to LANGUAGE over LC_ALL and LANG for the purpose of message handling, but you still need to
17:15:32 <fizzie> have LANG (or LC_ALL) set to the primary language; this is required by other parts of the system libraries. For example, some Swedish users who would rather read translations in German than English for when Swedish is not available, set LANGUAGE to ‘sv:de’ while leaving LANG to ‘sv_SE’."
17:15:57 <int-e> . o O ( am I alone in only setting LC_CTYPE and nothing else in the `locale` area? )
17:16:27 <fizzie> int-e: I don't think that's too weird, I think I might have done that too?
17:16:49 <int-e> fizzie: it's an honest question, I'm wondering.
17:17:19 <fizzie> I think now I do LANG=en_GB.UTF-8, LANGUAGE=en_GB:en_US:en, and I don't know if that latter one really makes any difference anywhere.
17:18:02 <int-e> IIRC I did something like that (only en_US probably) and didn't like the collation.
17:18:16 <b_jonas> int-e: you're not. I did that, and glibc used to have a bug that that caused
17:18:54 <b_jonas> int-e: technically it would be better to set LC_CTYPE, LC_MEASUREMENT, and LC_PAPER, but very few programs care about those locales
17:19:00 <zzo38> I just have LANG=C on my computer, and do not have the other stuff set
17:19:05 <fizzie> `` env | egrep 'LANG|LC'
17:19:06 <HackEso> LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 \ IRC_MESSAGE=`` env | egrep 'LANG|LC'
17:19:23 <int-e> `` locale # does it have this?
17:19:24 <HackEso> LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 \ LANGUAGE= \ LC_CTYPE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_NUMERIC="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_TIME="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_COLLATE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MONETARY="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MESSAGES="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_PAPER="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_NAME="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_ADDRESS="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_TELEPHONE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MEASUREMENT="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_IDENTIFICATION="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_ALL=
17:19:49 <int-e> though I guess that's misleading because it propagates LANG everywhere else
17:20:05 <fizzie> I don't know if it's intentional or not, but I think you can tell the fallbacky ones because they have quotes.
17:20:13 <fizzie> `` env LC_CTYPE=en_NZ.UTF-8 locale
17:20:15 <HackEso> LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 \ LANGUAGE= \ LC_CTYPE=en_NZ.UTF-8 \ LC_NUMERIC="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_TIME="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_COLLATE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MONETARY="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MESSAGES="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_PAPER="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_NAME="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_ADDRESS="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_TELEPHONE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MEASUREMENT="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_IDENTIFICATION="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_ALL=
17:20:20 <fizzie> See, the quotes disappeared.
17:20:30 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, LANG sets the default locale, and you can override separate facets with the individual LC_* variables
17:21:01 <HackEso> LANG=C \ LANGUAGE= \ LC_CTYPE="C" \ LC_NUMERIC="C" \ LC_TIME="C" \ LC_COLLATE="C" \ LC_MONETARY="C" \ LC_MESSAGES="C" \ LC_PAPER="C" \ LC_NAME="C" \ LC_ADDRESS="C" \ LC_TELEPHONE="C" \ LC_MEASUREMENT="C" \ LC_IDENTIFICATION="C" \ LC_ALL=
17:21:21 <int-e> fizzie: you're good: "Values for variables set in the environment are printed without double quotes, implied values are printed with double quotes."
17:21:53 <zzo38> Can you set some of them for stuff other than a language? Such as, for paper and telephone and so on you might want some format other than the specification of a language; will that work?
17:21:53 <b_jonas> ``` export LC_CTYPE=hu_HU.utf8 LC_MEASUREMENT=hu_HU.utf8 LC_PAPER=hu_HU.utf8; locale # I think we don't have that locale installed here
17:21:54 <HackEso> bash: warning: setlocale: LC_CTYPE: cannot change locale (hu_HU.utf8): No such file or directory \ locale: Cannot set LC_CTYPE to default locale: No such file or directory \ locale: Cannot set LC_ALL to default locale: No such file or directory \ LANG=C \ LANGUAGE= \ LC_CTYPE=hu_HU.utf8 \ LC_NUMERIC="C" \ LC_TIME="C" \ LC_COLLATE="C" \ LC_MONETARY="C" \ LC_MESSAGES="C" \ LC_PAPER=hu_HU.utf8 \ LC_NAME="C" \ LC_ADDRESS="C" \ LC_TELEPHONE="C" \ LC_MEASUREMEN
17:22:18 <zzo38> (And also with date/time; you might want to specify your own date/time format, too)
17:22:39 <b_jonas> zzo38: I think there are effectively only two different values for paper and measurement, so there's not much point complicating it
17:22:53 <b_jonas> I don't much care about the TELEPHONE part
17:23:28 <zzo38> b_jonas: For measurement I suppose, but for paper isn't there many different paper sizes?
17:24:24 <b_jonas> zzo38: only two _default_ paper sizes I believe, letter and A4
17:24:32 <b_jonas> you can print on other sizes of paper, but those aren't the default
17:24:40 <b_jonas> you just set them per printing job explicitly
17:24:44 <fizzie> I have en_GB.UTF-8, en_US.UTF-8 and en_NZ.UTF-8 uncommented in /etc/locale.gen on the HackEso system.
17:24:51 <fizzie> The last just because of the bot.
17:25:15 <b_jonas> there could be more, maybe I just don't know them
17:25:54 <b_jonas> similarly for LC_MEASUREMENT, you can tell programs to write distances in french leagues, it's just not the default from any french locale probably
18:27:17 <ais523> programs should know what languages their fallbacks are in :-(
18:27:25 <ais523> really, the fallback should be in C
18:28:49 <zzo38> Yes, if it uses languages at all, then it ought to know
18:42:14 <ais523> LC_TELEPHONE seems almost unusable to me; the only plausible use case is to correctly format phone numbers given as user input, when the user doesn't format them clearly
18:43:03 <ais523> (e.g. in the UK, you'd want to format 03001235000 as (0300) 123 5000; however, this is a very hard transformation to do automatically because the rules would depend on a prefix database)
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18:45:57 <b_jonas> ais523: I think that's for the modem dialer to know how to format international numbers on a fixed phone line, since those don't accept a plus
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18:48:00 <pikhq> What even is there to query the LC_TELEPHONE?
18:48:17 <fizzie> `` locale -k LC_TELEPHONE
18:48:18 <HackEso> tel_int_fmt="+%c %a %l" \ tel_dom_fmt="" \ int_select="" \ int_prefix="64" \ telephone-codeset="UTF-8"
18:48:26 <zzo38> Yes that would be helpful, but you should allow to define in the system configuration file what prefix to use; the driver can convert + to the proper prefix
18:48:56 <pikhq> fizzie: So, kinda, but what it tells you is pretty useless.
18:49:03 <fizzie> `` env LC_TELEPHONE=en_GB.UTF-8 locale -k LC_TELEPHONE
18:49:03 <HackEso> tel_int_fmt="+%c %a %l" \ tel_dom_fmt="%A %l" \ int_select="00" \ int_prefix="44" \ telephone-codeset="UTF-8"
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18:49:55 <zzo38> How do you define the details of the locale anyways? You should need some file to do so, I think.
18:50:33 <fizzie> I think it's somewhat spread out.
18:50:44 <fizzie> But here those LC_TELEPHONE values come from /usr/share/i18n/locales/en_GB.
18:51:38 <b_jonas> zzo38: you can't, it's gnu libc magic
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18:54:15 <zzo38> I found those locale files, but can you put any locales in your home directory in case you want to use one that the system administrator has not defined?
18:55:01 <fizzie> I think it can only use the compiled-together binary things as well? Haven't really explored though.
18:55:31 <fizzie> (Which on this system is /usr/lib/locale/locale-archive.)
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18:56:52 <fizzie> Although maybe there's some way to override the default path, in which case you could compile your own thing.
18:57:05 <zzo38> If it can only use the compiled files is OK, but you should be allowed to substitute your own file if you do not want to use the existing one. Furthermore, the C locale should not require any kind of file like that.
18:58:13 <fizzie> Yes, apparently there's a LOCPATH environment variable.
18:58:25 <fizzie> "The user can use custom locales by compiling them with localedef(1) and loading them from a directory pointed by LOCPATH; see the GNU C Library online manual at Locale Names, the locale(1) manual page, and the Testing Locales section below for details and examples."
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19:16:35 <b_jonas> right, that's like the TERMINFO_DIRS env-var that I used to use to install urxvt terminfo under my home directory on old systems that didn't come with one
19:16:51 <b_jonas> but if you want to use a custom terminfo or locale in a setuid program, you're out of lock
19:17:33 <ais523> fizzie: IIRC a custom locale is how we got false(1) to segfault, last time the "make false return true" discussion came up
19:18:01 <ais523> it's not quite as good as making it return true, but it's a step on the way
19:23:00 <ais523> making true return false is, of course, easy
19:23:20 <fizzie> The docs mentioned that setuid binaries ignore LOCPATH, which is probably good.
19:23:58 <ais523> that seems like the sort of thing that setuid binaries need to ignore
19:25:16 <b_jonas> the good old times when we did stuff like that,
19:25:51 <b_jonas> as in that rules abuse in https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=376362 where one task is to make something raise an exception, so I set up a debug single step callback, and raise an exception from inside
19:26:15 <b_jonas> why is making true return false easy?
19:26:34 <b_jonas> does it have to be /bin/true ?
19:27:16 <ais523> b_jonas: yes, /bin/true
19:27:35 <ais523> `` /bin/true > /dev/full; echo $?
19:27:44 <ais523> `` /bin/true --help > /dev/full; echo $?
19:27:45 <HackEso> /bin/true: write error: No space left on device \ 1
19:28:29 <b_jonas> yeah, ideally we just shouldn't use setuid binaries, so that things that have to run as root or something don't inherit any funny process state, but instead run as a demon or are spawned by a demon and other user's processes call into them without execve, but as long as setuid programs can exist, they need those restrictions
19:29:25 <ais523> the reverse is much harder because /bin/false reports an error even if you successfully --help or --version it
19:29:29 <HackEso> Usage: /bin/true [ignored command line arguments] \ or: /bin/true OPTION \ Exit with a status code indicating success. \ \ --help display this help and exit \ --version output version information and exit \ \ NOTE: your shell may have its own version of true, which usually supersedes \ the version described here. Please refer to your shell's documentation \ for details about the options it supports. \ \ GNU coreutils online help: <
19:29:44 <b_jonas> I did know that /bin/true --help prints help message but returns true, and /bin/false --help prints help message but returns false
19:29:47 <ais523> I was curious about what the help for /bin/true could possibly say :-D
19:29:52 <ais523> there's not much to talk about
19:30:03 * APic just learned about /dev/full
19:30:07 <b_jonas> ais523: in gnu coreutils, the help message says where to report localization bugs
19:30:14 <ais523> /dev/full is a very useful tool for testing
19:31:22 <b_jonas> it's handy, but it's not really essential. there are other ways to get unwritable file handles.
19:31:23 <ais523> because write errors are very rare in practice but it's a trivial way to cause a genuine write error
19:31:38 <b_jonas> it's a convenience device like /dev/zero
19:32:01 <ais523> b_jonas: closed-file-handle is the other easy thing to simulate but it often causes a much more complicated error due to things like fopen opening over it
19:32:15 <ais523> `` /bin/true --help 1&>-
19:32:22 <ais523> `` /bin/true --help 1&>-; echo $?
19:32:33 <ais523> `` /bin/true --help 1>&-; echo $?
19:32:34 <HackEso> /bin/true: write error: Bad file descriptor \ 1
19:33:05 <b_jonas> ais523: no no, don't use a closed filehandle
19:33:42 <b_jonas> ais523: I was thinking more of either a AF_LOCAL socket that's been shutdown, or a type of file handle where write isn't valid, such as an open directory
19:33:55 <b_jonas> or an epoll filehandle or whatever
19:34:07 <b_jonas> it's not easy to open those in pure bash
19:34:27 <ais523> `` mkfifo f; true < f & (sleep 1; /bin/true --help; echo $? 1>&2) > f
19:34:53 <ais523> hmm, so /bin/true doesn't catch SIGPIPE
19:35:47 <b_jonas> heck, or even a regular file open for read only
19:35:57 <b_jonas> /dev/full is more useful when you need a filename
19:37:05 <b_jonas> `` /bin/true 1<wisdom/oerjan; echo exit=$?,
19:37:12 <b_jonas> `` /bin/true --help 1<wisdom/oerjan; echo exit=$?,
19:37:13 <HackEso> /bin/true: write error: Bad file descriptor \ exit=1,
19:38:07 <b_jonas> ``` perl -we 'sysopen STDOUT,"/",0x10000 or die; exec "/bin/true","--help"'; echo exit=$?,
19:38:08 <HackEso> /bin/true: write error: Bad file descriptor \ exit=1,
19:38:19 <b_jonas> heck, you don't even need the flag
19:38:23 <b_jonas> ``` perl -we 'sysopen STDOUT,"/",0 or die; exec "/bin/true","--help"'; echo exit=$?,
19:38:24 <HackEso> /bin/true: write error: Bad file descriptor \ exit=1,
19:38:49 <b_jonas> `` /bin/true --help 1</; echo exit=$?,
19:38:50 <HackEso> /bin/true: write error: Bad file descriptor \ exit=1,
19:39:24 <b_jonas> although this might be a bug in /bin/true , it should probably still give exit code 0 if it can't print the help message
19:40:03 <b_jonas> but I rarely use /bin/true, because in shell scripts the shell builtin is easier, and it doesn't try to write anything
19:41:43 <b_jonas> you'd need an explicit check to not allow it, like explicitly fstat the file to check if it's a directory or something
19:41:59 <b_jonas> because open without O_WRITE will open directories just fine
19:42:30 <b_jonas> it needs to, because that's how opendir+readdir is implemented under the hood, with open and getdents, and for all the *at functions like openat too
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20:02:07 <ais523> `` /bin/true --help 1<&2; echo exit=$?
20:02:08 <HackEso> Usage: /bin/true [ignored command line arguments] \ or: /bin/true OPTION \ Exit with a status code indicating success. \ \ --help display this help and exit \ --version output version information and exit \ \ NOTE: your shell may have its own version of true, which usually supersedes \ the version described here. Please refer to your shell's documentation \ for details about the options it supports. \ \ GNU coreutils online help: <
20:02:23 <ais523> OK, so you can write to stdout even if it was opened only for reading
20:03:24 <b_jonas> ais523: it's just that by default the terminal device is opened for read-write, and that same one file description is duped to stdin, stdout, stderr
20:03:48 <ais523> oh right, dup doesn't mess with permissions
20:03:53 <b_jonas> check with fcntl if you want
20:03:59 <ais523> `` /bin/true --help 1</dev/null; echo exit=$?
20:04:00 <HackEso> /bin/true: write error: Bad file descriptor \ exit=1
20:05:48 <b_jonas> ``` perl -we 'use Fcntl; printf "fl=%04X,\n", fcntl(STDIN, F_GETFL(), 0);'
20:06:15 <b_jonas> ^ if the low two bits are 2, that means the file is open for read-write, which is what you'll normally see in a program in a terminal
20:06:33 <ais523> but in that case the low two bits aren't 2
20:06:43 <b_jonas> yes, because that's HackEso, not a termianl
20:06:55 <b_jonas> it doesn't have anything to read things from
20:07:50 <ais523> b_jonas: re your Perl problems: the official solution to one of them was to override the permissions on undef to make it read/write and assign to it, I'm surprised that didn't end up breaking something more important
20:08:38 <b_jonas> ais523: it could end up breaking things, but these are standalone esoteric exercises, not good practices to use in a production program
20:09:04 <ais523> 6 is perfectly fine to do in production IMO
20:09:22 <b_jonas> ais523: some could be as a special case
20:09:34 <ais523> hmm… in pure Perl, is there any way to place arrays as array elements?
20:09:36 <ais523> I know you can do that via XS
20:09:59 <ais523> Perl's internals don't have any rule that array elements must be scalars (ditto for hash values), that's just a rule of the language itself
20:10:15 <b_jonas> note that these can depend on perl 5.8
20:11:38 <ais523> `` --perl -e '@a=([1]); print ref \$a[0]'
20:11:39 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/`: line 5: --perl: command not found
20:11:42 <ais523> `` perl -e '@a=([1]); print ref \$a[0]'
20:12:07 <ais523> `` perl -e '@a=([1]); print ref \ ($a[0])'
20:12:47 <ais523> hmm, I was expecting SCALAR, am I missing a level of indirection somewhere?
20:12:52 <ais523> `` perl -e '@a=([1]); print ref ($a[0])'
20:13:05 <ais523> I guess REF is more specific than SCALAR
20:13:19 <b_jonas> (and technically you'd have to bit_and the file status flags with 0x01000003 to get the mode, and the possible modes are 0 for read only, 1 for write only, 2 for read-write, 3 for something Linux-specific, 0x10000000 for something else Linux-specific, except possibly on Hurd which uses different numeric values for O_READ and O_WRITE and O_RDWR just to be incompatible with everything)
20:13:22 <ais523> but it's weird to see references being displayed with a different type from other scalars
20:14:43 <b_jonas> ais523: ref can returns REF and a few other fancy things that still mean scalar
20:15:50 <b_jonas> it might be best to just check for undef, ARRAH, HASH, IO, FORMAT, and interpret anything else to mean it's a scalar reference;
20:16:11 <b_jonas> and call Scalar::Util::reftype instead of ref to handle blessed stuff
20:16:37 <b_jonas> but even then these functions are crazy
20:16:53 <b_jonas> ``` perl -e warn ref(qr/foo) # it's not a reference, so why does ref return true?
20:16:54 <HackEso> bash: -c: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `(' \ bash: -c: line 0: `perl -e warn ref(qr/foo) # it's not a reference, so why does ref return true?'
20:17:01 <b_jonas> `perl -e warn ref(qr/foo/)
20:17:17 <b_jonas> `perl -e warn use Scalar::Util; Scalar::Util::reftype(qr/foo/)
20:17:18 <HackEso> "use" not allowed in expression at -e line 1, near "warn " \ syntax error at -e line 1, near "warn use Scalar::Util" \ Execution of -e aborted due to compilation errors.
20:17:25 <b_jonas> `perl -e use Scalar::Util; warn Scalar::Util::reftype(qr/foo/)
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20:25:45 <b_jonas> `perl -wuse Scalar::Util "reftype"; warn reftype(\substr($x,0,0))
20:25:46 <HackEso> String found where operator expected at -e line 1, near "Scalar::Util "reftype"" \ (Do you need to predeclare Scalar::Util?) \ syntax error at -e line 1, near "Scalar::Util "reftype"" \ Execution of -e aborted due to compilation errors.
20:25:52 <b_jonas> `perl -euse Scalar::Util "reftype"; warn reftype(\substr($x,0,0))
20:26:00 <b_jonas> `perl -euse Scalar::Util "reftype"; warn reftype(\vec($x,0,1))
20:28:22 <b_jonas> `perl -euse Scalar::Util "reftype"; warn reftype(qr/foo/)
20:29:01 <b_jonas> but then, perl has all sorts of user-defined magical scalars, so a scalar can behave in almost any way
20:29:21 <b_jonas> you can't really write a program that behaves properly for any input if you can't trust what scalars go into the input
20:45:01 <ais523> there's probably a library to check whether a scalar is magical or not
20:45:18 <ais523> there are only so many things you can do magic-wise to a scalar; there are a lot, but it's a finite number and it's enumerated within the Perl header files
20:46:35 <zzo38> How does that work?
20:47:47 <ais523> Perl scalars are basically just a data structure with a large number of fields indicating all the possible special behaviours they could have
20:48:28 <ais523> Perl programmers use the term "magic" for data that acts very unusually compared to most data, but all possible forms of magic have to be encoded in the scalar's data structure somehow
20:49:49 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, with B for example
20:51:02 <zzo38> What kind of special behaviours are possible?
20:51:02 <b_jonas> `perl -e use Devel::Peek; $x="foo"; Dump($x) # not too magical
20:51:03 <HackEso> SV = PV(0x552ae9bb20) at 0x552aeb8a60 \ REFCNT = 1 \ FLAGS = (POK,IsCOW,pPOK) \ PV = 0x552aebd960 "foo"\0 \ CUR = 3 \ LEN = 10 \ COW_REFCNT = 1
20:51:12 <b_jonas> `perl -e use Devel::Peek; $x=qr"foo"; Dump($x) # quite magical
20:51:13 <HackEso> SV = IV(0x552aeb8a50) at 0x552aeb8a60 \ REFCNT = 1 \ FLAGS = (ROK) \ RV = 0x552aeb8268 \ SV = REGEXP(0x552aecd7e8) at 0x552aeb8268 \ REFCNT = 1 \ FLAGS = (OBJECT,FAKE) \ PV = 0x552aedc140 "(?^:foo)" \ CUR = 8 \ STASH = 0x552aeb8010"Regexp" \ COMPFLAGS = 0x0 () \ EXTFLAGS = 0x680000 (CHECK_ALL,USE_INTUIT_NOML,USE_INTUIT_ML) \ ENGINE = 0x552ae94560 (STANDARD) \ INTFLAGS = 0x0 () \ NPARENS = 0 \ LASTPAREN
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20:51:24 <b_jonas> you can use the B module to traverse the internal structures and read every bit
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20:51:41 <b_jonas> heck, you can probably use B for what ais523 asked, putting an array value into an array element
20:52:11 <b_jonas> or maybe not, if it only has read-only functions
21:02:50 <zzo38> Do magic behaviours mean including such a thing similar to the "number and string" type in AWK?
21:04:58 <b_jonas> zzo38: no, a perl scalar can be both a number and a string without being magical
21:05:14 <b_jonas> magic can do more tricky stuff, like catch every read of the scalar
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21:08:06 <zzo38> (In JavaScript properties can have a function to catch reading them, but variables don't.)
21:17:39 <rdococ> What if you had a high-level language, with high-level features, besides automatic memory management?
21:18:05 <zzo38> What kind of high-level features?
21:18:49 <rdococ> First-class functions, delimited and regular continuations, etc.
21:20:00 <int-e> ah, here we go... firefox has disabled my addons as well, it was just delayed.
21:20:24 <rdococ> Basically, a programming language with a lot of abstraction, except for one specific thing that stands out like a sore thumb.
21:21:30 <int-e> but xpinstall.signatures.required exists so they're back now :P
21:23:43 <HackEso> rm: cannot remove 'wisdom/security key': No such file or directory
21:24:31 <b_jonas> who was it who asked about identifying processes on linux without race conditions from 15-bit pids being reused? because apparently the linux devs are now working on that, though they're not done yet
21:26:19 <b_jonas> https://esolangs.org/logs/2018-11-28.html#lv
21:26:34 <b_jonas> zzo38: https://lwn.net/Articles/784831/
21:27:25 <zzo38> Yes, I remember I mentioned it. I thought of idea to perhaps use a file descriptor and then anything that can use a process ID number can also use the sum of the file descriptor with a constant that is larger than all valid process IDs but can fit in the variable without overflow.
21:27:32 <HackEso> [U+060C ARABIC COMMA] [U+0020 SPACE]
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21:29:13 <zzo38> That idea is pidfd like what I mentioned, although then you will need to add pidfd_send_signal() and so on; my suggestion does not require that you make up new system calls like that
21:29:16 <izabera> pids are not limited to 15 bits
21:29:43 <b_jonas> izabera: they're not strictly limited, that's just the default limit
21:29:55 <izabera> yeah and the limit is 2^22-1
21:30:29 <izabera> i'm in so much pain and i can't think straight
21:31:20 <zzo38> Still 22 bits is less than the 31 bits that a positive number in a signed 32-bit variable can have, so, what I mentioned can work.
21:31:49 <izabera> there's a really easy way to solve this problem entirely
21:32:01 <izabera> make pids 64bits, incremental and never reused
21:33:35 <b_jonas> izabera: that's not so simple, because there are lots of system calls and user library calls that store pids in 32-bit values
21:33:58 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, that is why you have to do what I mentioned instead.
21:34:22 <zzo38> Define the constant in some C header file.
21:40:00 <zzo38> For example: #define PIDFD_OFFSET (1<<30)
21:41:13 <zzo38> So then you can do my suggestion without needing to add any new system calls at all.
21:46:09 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't really like that idea. it seems prone to bugs.
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21:49:24 <b_jonas> I'm not sure, I can't give a good argument, sorry
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21:51:25 <zzo38> However, one thing I also consider is that PIDFD_OFFSET-1 also should be not valid; that is why it must be higher than (1<<22)
21:57:09 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Falsaidi * New user account
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22:12:02 <int-e> I like Schleckmercenary's take on the Fermi paradox.
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22:40:24 <Sgeo_> Why is Scratchapixel 2.0 apparently missing chapters?
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23:03:45 <esowiki> [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61708&oldid=61696 * Salpynx * (-34) Tidy one section for clarity and neater contents.
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23:15:17 <zzo38> How useful is the EXCLUDE clause in SQL? It does not seem so useful to me. Allowing to specify numbers PRECEDING and FOLLOWING for a RANGE frame type look like useful, though.
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00:03:12 <b_jonas> the rust standard library now documentedly defines std::cell::UnsafeCell and std::cell::Cell with the #[repr(transparent)] attribute
00:04:20 <b_jonas> plus also std::mem::ManuallyDrop too
00:07:14 <zzo38> One problem with the game Rogue is that if there are objects on the ground and you can't carry it, it will not tell you what it is that you are unable to pick up.
00:09:59 <b_jonas> but rogue doesn't have corpses, does it? how do you get objects that you can't carry?
00:10:22 <zzo38> In case you are already carrying too many items
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00:22:20 <HackEso> Nuff is a substance extracted from fairies. Somehow no one really minds this.
00:22:56 <oerjan> i'd forgotten about that.
00:24:39 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
00:24:48 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
00:24:57 <b_jonas> how do I tell what the spelling correction corrects it to?
00:27:21 <shachaf> In general or in this specific case?
00:28:17 <fizzie> I located @leet by just doing @listmodules and a @list on any likely subjects.
00:28:32 <b_jonas> shachaf: also where has hppavilion disappeared?
00:28:39 <shachaf> In this particular case it's @leet, which I already knew.
00:28:55 <shachaf> But I was being stubborn about the way you phrased your question or something and unhelpful for that reason.
00:29:12 <shachaf> So I made fizzie do unnecessary work.
00:29:14 <b_jonas> he's the other regular besides boily who's disappeared recently
00:30:32 <b_jonas> @leet Do you wish to make the mountains bare their head
00:30:32 <lambdabot> dO joo \/\/I5H 7o MAk3 TH3 mOun+4iNz B4r3 +h3iR |-|eaD
00:32:52 <oerjan> there might be some command that's got just the wrong levenshtein neighbors to find it by such small adjustments...
00:32:53 <lambdabot> elite <phrase>. Translate English to elitespeak
00:33:18 <lambdabot> elite <phrase>. Translate English to elitespeak
00:36:39 <fizzie> The only call to levenshteinDistance is in closests, and the only call to closests is right there in doMsg where it gets triggered directly if there's just one match. So I don't think there's a straightforward way to ask what it got mapped to.
00:37:31 <b_jonas> in buubot, a call to a function macro can take the first one word or first two word as function name, and I'm not sure how to query which one it does
00:37:44 <b_jonas> at least there you can just query the source of both of those possibilities
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00:42:39 <zzo38> fizzie: Are you able to fix the program?
00:42:45 <zzo38> (or is that someone else's job?)
00:52:08 <fizzie> I don't think it's anyone's actual job. But probably it's closer to being someone else's job.
00:52:21 <fizzie> I was just reading https://github.com/lambdabot/lambdabot/blob/master/lambdabot-core/src/Lambdabot/Plugin/Core/Base.hs#L230
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00:53:27 <zzo38> OK, but who set up that instance?
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01:01:04 <int-e> b_jonas: @seen has been disabled for ages now, because it leaks memory somehow... possibly it's not even technically a leak but just the fact that there are too many users being tracked.
01:04:34 <int-e> zzo38: I'm running the thing, I do occasional maintenance but usually I don't go beyond fixing broken things...
01:06:31 <fizzie> int-e: I think spell is broken too, by the way.
01:06:34 <lambdabot> Plugin `spell' failed with: aspell: readCreateProcessWithExitCode: runInteractiveProcess: exec: does not exist (No such file or directory)
01:07:14 <fizzie> (I'm not even sure what it should do, just came across it when listing things.)
01:07:52 <int-e> Hmm that looks simple enough...
01:08:09 <fizzie> Oh, so that's what it does.
01:08:25 <lambdabot> all-dicts ... Query all databases on dict.org
01:10:05 <int-e> wtf: nazi True = lift on >> say "Spelling nazi engaged."
01:17:39 <lambdabot> • Couldn't match expected type ‘Int’ with actual type ‘[Char]’
01:17:41 <lambdabot> • In the first argument of ‘replicate’, namely ‘"foo"’
01:17:50 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: rc reconnect remember repoint roll run v @ ? .
01:17:57 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: undefine undo unlambda unmtl unpf unpl unpointless unshift-topic uptime url v @ ? .
01:18:00 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: nazi-off nazi-on nixon wn v @ ? .
01:18:16 <lambdabot> What module? Try @listmodules for some ideas.
01:18:18 <int-e> b_jonas: use privmsg
01:23:12 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
01:23:20 <lambdabot> dummy provides: eval choose dummy bug id show wiki paste docs learn haskellers botsnack get-shapr shootout faq googleit hackage thanks thx thank you ping tic-tac-toe
01:26:30 <int-e> at least half of these are memorials of a sillier time on #haskell.
01:27:02 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: thank: not found
01:27:06 <HackEso> Thanks, lambdabot. Thambdabot.
01:28:27 <fungot> Thanks, lambdabot. Thambdabot.
01:28:38 <fizzie> (I just like to verify that every now and then.)
01:28:55 <lambdabot> quote provides: quote remember forget ghc fortune yow arr yarr keal b52s pinky brain palomer girl19 v yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw protontorpedo nixon farber
01:29:01 <HackEso> 799) <HackEgo> 499) <zzo38> What is miff-muffered moof? <itidus20> that's a tough question [...] <Sgeo> miff-muffered moof sounds like a setup to something, but itidus screws it up.
01:33:28 <fungot> Thanks, firefox. Thirefox.
01:34:31 <HackEso> Thanks, mozilla. Thozilla.
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01:50:15 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: unideco: not found
01:50:19 <orin> `unidecode 5⁄2
01:50:20 <HackEso> [U+0035 DIGIT FIVE] [U+2044 FRACTION SLASH] [U+0032 DIGIT TWO]
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03:25:36 <zzo38> Are you able to tell them about my ideas about pidfd? They would still have CLONE_PIDFD too I forgot to mention, but even with what I mentioned you should have that too
03:25:39 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61709&oldid=61626 * Falsaidi * (+342) Added my own introduction
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08:46:54 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61710&oldid=61701 * A * (+61) Fix style and add a golfing tutorial
08:49:38 <esowiki> [[User:JonoCode9374]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61711&oldid=58350 * JonoCode9374 * (+264) Fixed a bit of spelling
08:50:42 <esowiki> [[(PTM)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61712&oldid=52664 * RealUndefined * (+12) improve format
08:51:29 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61713&oldid=61710 * JonoCode9374 * (-8) /* External Resources / Reference Implementation */ The interpreter isn't much of a WIP as i thought it was.
08:54:51 <esowiki> [[Keg/Golfing]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61714 * A * (+695) Created page with "This page tries to teach the reader how to golf programs in [[Keg]]. The official tutorial did not even mention golfing techniques. == Problem #1. Golf the [[Hello, World!]] p..."
09:05:17 <esowiki> [[Keg/Golfing]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61715&oldid=61714 * A * (+1591)
09:07:48 <esowiki> [[Keg/Golfing]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61716&oldid=61715 * A * (+151) /* Tips that don't seem to fit anywhere */
09:12:44 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61717&oldid=61713 * A * (+61) Add links
09:14:56 <esowiki> [[Keg/Golfing]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61718&oldid=61716 * A * (+167) /* Tips that don't seem to fit anywhere but still relate to golfing */
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09:27:01 <john_metcalf> Has anyone played this C++Robots programming game? I'm looking for any robot code (or koth standings) http://www.gamerz.net/c++robots/
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10:58:05 <esowiki> [[Keg/Golfing]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61719&oldid=61718 * JonoCode9374 * (+16) /* Problem #2. Golf the Deadfish interpreter. */ just added a little extra detail
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11:58:48 <int-e> free association: "Golf the Deadfish" -- "Sushi the Goldfish"
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12:30:48 <esowiki> [[Keg/Golfing]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61720&oldid=61719 * A * (+108) Small detail
12:36:17 <esowiki> [[Keg/Golfing]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61721&oldid=61720 * A * (-1) grm
12:37:27 <esowiki> [[Keg/Golfing]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61722&oldid=61721 * A * (-7) /* Problem #2. Golf the Deadfish interpreter. */
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12:38:50 <esowiki> [[Keg/Golfing]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61723&oldid=61722 * A * (+10) Found another grm, and make the except look like normal talking
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12:47:27 <esowiki> [[Keg/Golfing]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61724&oldid=61723 * A * (+17) Fix the article that I made in a hurry
12:54:25 <esowiki> [[Keg/Golfing]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61725&oldid=61724 * A * (+22) *sigh*
13:10:44 <esowiki> [[Talk:Keg]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61726 * A * (+411) Write an incomplete message. TODO
13:16:12 <esowiki> [[Talk:Keg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61727&oldid=61726 * A * (+659) End my talk
13:16:59 <esowiki> [[Talk:Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61728&oldid=61727 * A * (+67)
13:18:04 <esowiki> [[Talk:Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61729&oldid=61728 * A * (-117) simplify my talk
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13:42:40 <esowiki> [[User:JonoCode9374]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61730&oldid=61711 * A * (+136) Post an answer (you can undo it if you dislike it.)
13:45:30 <esowiki> [[User:JonoCode9374]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61731&oldid=61730 * A * (+39)
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13:55:34 <esowiki> [[User:JonoCode9374]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61732&oldid=61731 * A * (-175) Undo all of my edits
13:58:24 <esowiki> [[Talk:Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61733&oldid=61729 * A * (+4)
14:03:02 <esowiki> [[Talk:Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61734&oldid=61733 * A * (-1024) It does not matter, though. Iteration is enough.
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14:58:33 <kmc> good morning all
15:02:19 <esowiki> [[History (programming language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61735&oldid=61706 * A * (-212) Simplify the commands
15:04:21 <kmc> are there any esoteric DSP languages?
15:05:29 <kmc> or esoteric frameworks for (possibly simulated) analog computing?
15:08:48 <kmc> programming languages where the source code is an audio file? music? where you can take the FFT of your program to get another program?
15:09:52 <FireFly> Depending on where you draw the line, I think the answer is yes to a couple of those
15:10:54 <FireFly> ais's Checkout, Codegolf SE's Marbelous come to mind
15:15:36 <kmc> fourier transforms are too good
15:16:05 <kmc> "Are you saying I can convert between time and frequency domain?" "No, Neo. I'm saying that when you're ready, you won't have to."
15:16:17 <fizzie> Music as syntax does happen, but not generally encoded as audio -- https://esolangs.org/wiki/Fugue comes to mind.
15:17:30 <fizzie> Bitoven and Musical-X are in the same general area.
15:17:50 <kmc> it would be cool if there were a language where you could play a program on an actual musical instrument, record it, and then execute it
15:18:00 <kmc> (not counting stuff like MIDI keyboards)
15:18:14 <kmc> I saw a guy playing a MIDI clarinet once. it was pretty cool
15:18:23 <kmc> instead of a reed it has a breath sensor
15:18:56 <kmc> my father in law has a huge MIDI pipe organ controller with 3 ranks of keys, a set of pedals, and stops
15:19:05 <kmc> it is pretty much the centeripiece of their apartment
15:19:53 <kmc> it's connected to some absurdly powerful computer, like a top of the line Core i7 with 128 GB of RAM, which runs Hauptwerk which is an extremely accurate pipe organ simulator
15:21:04 <fizzie> Heh. Is it a physics-based simulator or what?
15:22:54 <fizzie> I think some of my university coworkers were doing / had done work on simulating the physics of string instruments.
15:36:13 <fizzie> Today's example of context-unaware bad word filtering: "cons**cuous" & "sus**cuous".
15:38:44 <int-e> fizzie: I don't get it.
15:39:58 <int-e> (except maybe that it won't catch "suspicious")
15:42:02 <fizzie> int-e: "spic" it's a bad word. And they used one of those filters that cares not of word boundaries.
15:42:53 <kmc> lol scunthorpe
15:43:04 <fizzie> (Like the clbuttic "buttbuttinate" example. Except this one adds stars.)
15:44:14 <b_jonas> fizzie: I still don't understand why Hungary can have settlements called Csabaszabadi, Rábaszentandrás, Rábaszentmihály, and Rábaszentmiklós
15:48:44 <int-e> fizzie: oh. makes sense.
15:48:46 <fizzie> (Also it was "sus**cious", I just messed that one up.)
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15:57:14 <int-e> . o O ( ѕuѕрісіоuѕ )
15:58:17 <_zM> I created a BytePusher peogram that generates the Mandelbrot set: https://gitlab.com/0-zM/mandelbrot-bytepusher
15:58:48 <HackEso> [U+0455 CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER DZE]
15:58:52 <int-e> I didn't know of that one.
16:02:20 <int-e> hah apparently that particular substitution has made it into various spam mails; google reports 1460 hits.
16:03:35 <int-e> (for "ѕuѕрісіоuѕ")
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16:34:15 <b_jonas> fizzie: does it replace "spice" too?
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17:29:40 <zzo38> Are there lists of NNTP server software with comparisons?
17:30:54 <zzo38> There are many different ones, written in different programming languages, with different licenses, and with different capabilities. Some use SQLite or other SQL databases, and some do not use SQL. Some connect to other servers too and some don't. Some also interact with web forums or mailing lists.
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19:50:30 <zzo38> Do you know if any NNTP server has a command to search for articles with a specified value in the "References" header?
20:07:45 <zzo38> (This would be useful if you want to find replies to a message, since all replies to a single message have the same value for the References header.)
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20:45:51 <ais523> kmc: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Analogia is basically an esolang that's a specification of how analog computers work
20:46:17 <ais523> I'm not sure whether it's TC, I keep making mistakes trying to prove it TC because the set of things it can and can't do is so different from normal
20:46:38 <ais523> as for the DSP side of things, C-INTERCAL can run on (some) microcontrollers, so you could probably adapt it to DSPs fairly easily
20:46:59 <kmc> I mean more like a language that has DSP type of stuff as primitives
20:47:00 <b_jonas> oh, I should check if the CLC-intercal homepage is up
20:47:06 <kmc> and is designed around making, like, filter pipelines
20:47:14 <ais523> as mentioned, Fugue uses a MIDI file as source code, but it's still command-based
20:48:25 <ais523> kmc: well, the fast fourier transform is pretty much the only DSP primitive that isn't found on more normal processors too
20:48:35 <ais523> most of what you do are addition, multiplication, FFT
20:48:56 <kmc> did you implement Analogia?
20:49:40 <kmc> I suspect that, while computation on reals is Turing-uncomputable in general, that given sufficient continuity constraints on the equations, it becomes r.e.
20:49:43 <ais523> no, and I'm not even sure it's computable
20:50:01 <ais523> I think it probably is computuable, but guesses as to computational class are quite different from proofs
20:50:21 <int-e> ais523: possibly stupid question: y = ∫y+y ∂x ... shouldn't the integrand be x+x?
20:50:25 <b_jonas> ais523: have you figured out anything new about that letter permutation problem?
20:50:31 <kmc> also you could just implement it numerically and accept that some pathological programs will not run properly
20:50:38 <kmc> and may not run properly on an analog computer
20:50:45 <ais523> int-e: they're both legal
20:50:50 <ais523> but have different meanings
20:50:56 <kmc> certainly you can make chaotic things using op amps that will produce wildly different results when disturbed by noise
20:51:08 <kmc> there are some cool ones here, http://www.falstad.com/circuit/circuitjs.html
20:51:21 <int-e> ais523: I'm wondering how you got x^2 out of that.
20:51:30 <kmc> go to Circuits -> Op amp -> Chaotic circuits
20:51:44 <ais523> kmc: real-life analog computers aren't TC because the integrators will quickly hit implementation limits if you try to use them to store bignums, and the only possible other place you could store arbitrary data is in using arbitrarily high accuracy for the fractional component of values
20:51:44 <b_jonas> you have to be able to make chaotic things if it's Turing-complete
20:52:39 <ais523> anyway, you can't expect real-life analog computers to be able to handle arbitrarily many decimal places of accuracy, they can't be built that accurate
20:52:43 <ais523> so in practice they have finite storage
20:52:49 <kmc> that's kind of my point
20:53:15 <kmc> also, it would be fun to actually build these chaotic circuits and hook them to my scope in XY mode and use some variable resistors/capacitors so i can mess with them
20:53:48 <ais523> IIRC, y = ∫y+y ∂x would resolve to something like y = A*e**2x for some constant A, wouldn't it?
20:54:07 <ais523> variable resistors are way cheaper and more reliable than variable capacitors
20:54:23 <ais523> although variable capacitors look more electronicsy
20:54:41 <int-e> ais523: yes, that looks more plausible (A being the initial value, so 0 isn't a good one)
20:55:18 <b_jonas> the lack of parenthesis there still bothers me
20:55:38 <int-e> ais523: ah, that was assuming x0 = 0; A = y0 * e^(-2x0)
20:55:42 <b_jonas> it should be y = ∫(y+y)∂x and y = A*e**(2x)
20:56:01 <kmc> ais523: this is true
20:56:17 <b_jonas> but the language source code format, as you defined it, doesn't allow the former
20:56:22 <kmc> I want to build a magnetic loop antenna and by far the most expensive component is a varicap
20:56:45 <kmc> and depending on how much power you want to transmit, it needs a really high breakdown voltage (so vacuum dielectric is often used)
20:56:53 <esowiki> [[Analogia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61736&oldid=59717 * Ais523 * (+10) fix the comment in the example
20:57:30 <int-e> ais523: the @0 in the expression if y@0 ;-)
20:58:01 <esowiki> [[Analogia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61737&oldid=61736 * Ais523 * (-8) /* Syntax */ sigh
20:58:29 <int-e> but thanks, I can follow that example now at least :)
20:58:50 <zzo38> I thought to do instruction set for audio output in a computer design I was thinking of, to have one instruction for events: If there is no pending event, wait until there is. If there is a pending event, cancel that event and jump to the event handler for that event.
20:59:10 <ais523> int-e: my last few esolangs each have the property that they were thought of long in advance, and then written up just before a meeting when I was tired
20:59:23 <ais523> so the write-up is often fairly nonsensical until someone else reads it and tells me what's wrong
20:59:44 <zzo38> Each channel has a current value, new value, current duration, new duration, and expiry flag. When it expires, it sets the expiry flag and copies the new value/duration to the current value/duration; the expiry flag is then a event flag, which is cleared once the event is acknowledged.
20:59:45 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah, it's been almost two years since I thought up Consumer Society
21:00:18 <zzo38> What do you think of that?
21:01:09 <zzo38> (In addition to the expiry events, there is also the receive data events.)
21:01:20 <b_jonas> zzo38: and then there are arithmetic connectors and SRAM registers to transform the channel values to sound?
21:01:48 <ais523> zzo38: I'm not sure if piecewise-linear is enough to produce a good set of envelopes; also, are the "values" frequency or amplitude or both?
21:02:02 <ais523> timbre is also probably relevant, unless you want to write chiptune
21:02:24 <ais523> that looks like a good way to define an analog piecewise-linear output, though
21:03:20 <zzo38> ais523: The values are amplitude only.
21:03:37 <ais523> oh, and they aren't being interpolated, so you have step changes, not piecewise-linear
21:04:09 <ais523> you will need some way to sweep the values, because a sudden change in amplitude produces a step pulse, which has a very distinctive sound and one that people normally dislike using in music
21:04:27 <ais523> it's sort-of like a clicking noise but a bit more distinctive than that
21:05:17 <b_jonas> ais523: no, you'd have arithmetic connection between them, as in add, subtract, multiply, min, max, and sram registers that read every odd cycle and store a new value every even cycle, and you can get linear or polynomial or sine wave from those
21:05:21 <ais523> hmm… the exception may be if you change the amplitude at the moment the oscillating output crosses zero
21:06:38 <zzo38> The duration would ordinarily be small enough (if the instructions run at 8.82 MHz then you have 200 instruction cycles to change the value of a 44100 Hz signal; if it is faster then you will have more). Many older computers I think did not interpolate, but anyways a analog filter can also be added if needed (that is what Amiga does)
21:07:20 <ais523> zzo38: fwiw, the way practical sound cards nowadays do audio output is for the channels to use a queue of samples, specifying the voltage to output for each sample; the sound card will take a sample 44100 times per second, and the software will fill the queue back up much less frequently than that
21:07:45 <ais523> sometimes if a computer's lagging really badly, the sound card repeats the same sound over and over, which I think is because the queue is a circular buffer and if nothing refills it it therefore ends up repeating itself
21:07:55 <b_jonas> ais523: that's what new sound cards do. old ones have analog components in them, connected in a fixed manner, with parameters adjustable
21:08:16 <ais523> yes, old ones normally had frequency and amplitude envelope generators
21:08:37 <b_jonas> and supposedly noise generators too, though I don't know what those do
21:08:39 <ais523> which let you specify what function should be used for the frequency and/or amplitude over time
21:08:52 <ais523> b_jonas: they're basically just random number generators, which use the random numbers directly as samples
21:09:09 <ais523> the result is an approximation of white noise
21:09:32 <zzo38> The audio program can store stuff in the sound card's memory and make their own queue if you want to; the "receive data" events can be used to receive the data from the CPU if you want to do. You could also instead define it as having period and waveforms and stuff and implement that in the audio program instead, if you want to do.
21:09:34 <ais523> luckily you don't need a very good random number generator for that, just good enough that human ears can't spot the pattern; I think LFSRs were the common implementation
21:10:06 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah, those would probably be the easiest
21:10:16 <b_jonas> since they need fewer bits of state and not much electronics
21:10:31 <b_jonas> only constant multiplication and addition
21:10:56 <ais523> LFSR/LFSRNG is even simpler in hardware
21:11:01 <ais523> it's just a shift register and a few xors
21:11:06 <zzo38> Some old computers do use LFSR for the noise channel
21:11:15 <b_jonas> but don't you need a longer shift register for that?
21:11:24 <b_jonas> I somehow think that would require slightly bigger hardware
21:11:41 <ais523> not really, the period's still the same as that of an LCRNG on the same register size
21:11:43 <b_jonas> yeah, I guess it's not much of a difference
21:11:48 <zzo38> (With what I have, you would be able to program it to act more like old computers or newer ones, or something else that you want to do, too)
21:13:29 <ais523> hmm, apparently the version on Wikipedia has no constant term and thus the period is 1 shorter (as you have to avoid the all-zeroes state)
21:19:28 <fizzie> rfk86 (the TI-86 port of robotfindskitten) uses a LFSR-based RNG for positioning the NKIs, for no particular reason.
21:19:40 <ais523> what does it use to position the KIs?
21:20:27 <fizzie> ...well, there's just one (per round). But I guess the same thing, I just didn't think of that.
21:20:47 <fizzie> Also for picking the descriptions.
21:21:42 <fizzie> I think it's seeded by the time you spend on the splash screen, so in theory you can win every time if you can measure that accurately enough. But that'd kind of miss the point of the game.
21:22:08 <ais523> calculators seem like a bad platform for running robotfindskitten, as the executable is mostly text and not much logic
21:22:26 <ais523> fwiw, I've seen people speedrun robotfindskitten, which I suspect is also missing the point of the game
21:22:44 <fizzie> Yes, there isn't much code. I did a simple LZ77/Huffman compression for the text.
21:23:08 <b_jonas> ais523: sure, but then speedrunning can be enjoyable on its own, even if it doesn't give the original experience of the first gameplay
21:23:18 <b_jonas> a lot of more broken speedruns are like that
21:23:20 <ais523> b_jonas: have you /played/ robotfindskitten? :-D
21:23:48 <fizzie> It calls itself a "zen simulation", FWIW.
21:24:03 <ais523> there are lots of games where I'd argue that speedrunning can be enjoyable even if it misses the point of the game, most games in fact
21:24:29 <zzo38> You could also try porting to Glulx or Z-machine, which have built-in features for text compression (I wrote a assembler for Glulx, and for Z-machine there is ZAPF)
21:25:19 <ais523> the hardest part about making that work would be the screen-oriented/vi-keys controls
21:25:24 <zzo38> (However, I think the way that the Huffman tree is stored in Glulx is rather inefficient)
21:25:26 <fizzie> There's an Inform port of the game.
21:25:44 <zzo38> ais523: In Glulx you can use a text grid window, and it supports single key input.
21:26:12 <zzo38> (It won't run on CheapGlk, but it will still work on GlkTerm and most other implementations)
21:26:24 <ais523> zzo38: do you have ideas for efficient ways to store Huffman trees? I need one of those for a project I'm working on, and I have my own ideas too, but yours might be better
21:27:28 <zzo38> ais523: I think I mentioned here something before.
21:27:51 <fizzie> Looking at the readme, the Inform port doesn't compile to Glulx "because of copious use of Z-machine assembly instructions": https://github.com/DavidGriffith/rfk-inform
21:27:52 <zzo38> Involving the Kraft/MacMillian inequality, I think.
21:29:59 <zzo38> fizzie: Inform even uses an entirely different syntax for Z-machine assembly instructions than ZAP does; the names of the instructions are also different. (With Glulx, the names of the instructions are same but the syntax for operands differs in different implementations.)
21:30:09 <ais523> zzo38: my approach is sort-of the reverse of that, I store the number of codewords of each length, and that's all you need to work out the codeword themselves (assuming a canonical Huffman code; there's no reason to use a non-canonical code)
21:30:54 <ais523> then you just need to store the meanings of the codewords in some arbitrary order (e.g. length order, tiebroken by lexicographical order), and there's even scope for optimisation there because if two codewords have the same length you can swap their meanings without any loss in efficiency
21:31:16 <zzo38> Yes, I was also assuming canonical. However, I was perhaps assuming a different kind of method for meanings of codewords.
21:33:40 <zzo38> (Which is better probably depends what kind of data you are compressing; what you do is probably better for what you were thinking of.)
21:34:31 <zzo38> There is a example Glulx program with glasm syntax in esolang wiki in the article about Deadfish. (I also wrote a Z-machine implementation on Glulx with glasm.)
21:36:58 <ais523> <b_jonas> ais523: have you figured out anything new about that letter permutation problem? ← it's NP-complete but I found an approximate solution that was good enough for my purposes
21:37:13 <b_jonas> how did you prove it's NP-complete?
21:37:34 <zzo38> I don't know if do you want to write any programs in Glulx?
21:37:35 <ais523> oh, that's not actually a proof I think, just a guess
21:37:45 <ais523> because I'm not sure you can translate sufficiently arbitrary graphs
21:38:01 <ais523> but the Wikipedia article implies that clique cover is NP-complete for most types of graph, except the ones where it obviously isn't
21:38:06 <ais523> so I didn't car eto look further
21:38:10 <b_jonas> ok, so we don't know yet if there's a polynomial solution
21:39:53 <b_jonas> I thought about it only a little, and all I got was see why the simple polynomial solution doesn't actually work
21:40:30 <b_jonas> but I don't really know whether there's a polynomial solution or not
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21:48:44 <ais523> b_jonas: well it's literally just the clique cover problem on the graph specified by "sequences are compatible with each other", assuming that pairwise compatbility in a group means that the whole group is compatible at once
21:48:58 <ais523> so the question boils down to what sort of graph the sequences can generate
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21:49:37 <b_jonas> I think I've been misunderstanding something here
21:49:48 <b_jonas> I'll have to re-read what you wrote about this probably
22:20:14 <b_jonas> maybe I should learn some python3
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23:26:56 <ais523> wow, robotfindskitten has an info file
23:27:28 <ais523> also a man page, but that's less surprising
23:28:35 <ais523> you can also move the robot using both vikeys and emacs-keys (emacs-keys are somewhat impractical for a roguelike…)
23:29:18 <b_jonas> ais523: can you move them with wasd (or waxd)? numpad?
23:29:29 <ais523> numpad yes, I think wasd no, but I'll try
23:30:11 <shachaf> Emacs keys are no more impractical for a roguelike than they are for emacs, are they?
23:31:18 <shachaf> Do you think one-pass UI layout is practical?
23:31:21 <ais523> shachaf: so vi has this insert mode / command mode split, in insert mode almost all keys just insert themselves literally and to leave it you press Escape to enter command mode
23:31:32 <b_jonas> ais523: nor does wordstar keys, as in ^E ^S ^X ^D right?
23:31:54 <ais523> in Emacs, instead of there being keys to toggle between the modes, you're effectively in insert mode except when holding a modifier key
23:32:06 <ais523> for basic things like movement, you hold ctrl to give the command and release to return to insert mode
23:32:12 <shachaf> I've been adding modal UIs all over the place.
23:32:20 <shachaf> I guess people normally call them menus.
23:32:29 <b_jonas> yeah, control or alt in emacs
23:32:35 <ais523> this is pretty much equally as fast as the vi method once you're used to it, and has the advantage that you can't be in the wrong mode by mistake, but it's kind-of silly if your game doesn't /have/ insert mode
23:32:48 <shachaf> For example, I press the printscreen key, and then I get a list of options: [w]indow, [r]oot, [s]election
23:33:15 <shachaf> So I don't have to remember to press alt-shift-printscreen or cmd-shift-5 or whatever people normally do.
23:33:19 <ais523> (vi has, in general, faster cursor movement and basic editing commands than emacs, but it's not because it's modal, it's just because it has a better selection of them)
23:33:27 <shachaf> for this innovation i should get a nobel prize in ui design
23:33:34 <b_jonas> ais523: I think back in the 8-bit era, there was a popular keyboard control scheme for top-view games where IIRC your left hand controls up-down movement, and the right hand left-right movement
23:33:53 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, there are menus like that in many programs, although there are also programs having modes without menus (such as vi and ZZTQED)
23:33:56 <b_jonas> emacs keys is sort of like that but with more contortion
23:34:21 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, I have played some game like that
23:34:30 <b_jonas> shachaf: I don't use printscreen, I just use gimp to make screenshots
23:34:46 <zzo38> (I have found that some support the arrow keys as well, but some don't)
23:35:04 <zzo38> I don't use printscreen for screenshots either; I use programs I wrote myself
23:35:33 <b_jonas> this is because I almost always want to edit the screenshot once I take it, so I need gimp anyway
23:36:08 <ais523> I once used the files in /dev that hold copies of the contents of the various virtual terminals to take screenshots
23:36:18 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, I have used Xlib to write X client programs (including a screenshot program)
23:36:55 <ais523> I don't think X was even running at the time, or I wouldn't have had to resort to that method
23:36:58 <zzo38> ais523: What files are those, and what format?
23:37:09 <b_jonas> ais523: /dev/vcs1 and /dev/vcsa1
23:37:42 <shachaf> zzo38: I wanted to implement the X protocol myself, but unfortunately using Xlib is mandatory.
23:37:47 <b_jonas> vcs just has the bytes in it, vcsa has the attributes too
23:37:52 <zzo38> b_jonas: OK, I will look
23:37:56 <ais523> zzo38: the format is basically the first line, followed by the second line, followed by the third line, etc., but they aren't separated with newlines, rather each line contains every character on it up to the edge of the screen, things "past the end of the line" are padded with NUL or space
23:38:05 <zzo38> shachaf: There is also xcb in case you don't like Xlib
23:38:28 <shachaf> But you have to use xcb if you want to use OpenGL.
23:39:09 <b_jonas> shachaf: how can it be mandatory? you can have a basic X client that connects to a remote X server through a tcp socket. how can the server know whether you're Xlib?
23:39:19 <shachaf> It's only mandatory for OpenGL.
23:39:38 <shachaf> But I think GPU rendering is mandatory for software nowadays.
23:40:07 <zzo38> ais523: Is it like the PC text screen format? I read that man page, and so also, how to determine the font?
23:40:16 <b_jonas> not necessarily GPU rendering, but at least client-side rendering, as opposed to having the X server draw graphics for you
23:40:32 <b_jonas> zzo38: there are ioctls for that, see man console_ioctl
23:40:38 <shachaf> Speaking of liking this, do you like https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19701275 ?
23:40:41 <b_jonas> zzo38: wait, I have an example for that
23:40:55 <zzo38> I often just draw graphics by the X server; it works well enough for most stuff
23:41:27 <zzo38> shachaf: As you can see, I already answered that question.
23:41:36 <b_jonas> zzo38: https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=793690 reads the font with that ioctl
23:42:01 <b_jonas> might not work on modern linux if it uses framebuffer console, that is, when console has the graphics card in graphics mode actually, not in VGA text mode
23:42:17 <shachaf> I was asking whether you liked the comment "Do you like this?".
23:42:24 <shachaf> Also I was asking int-e, I think.
23:42:37 <b_jonas> I think there's also an ioctl to read the video mode and the palette
23:43:16 <b_jonas> I don't know how to read the cursor setting
23:44:35 <b_jonas> stupid question. how does SNES Earthbound display text in a proportional width font? isn't that impossible in the SNES graphics hardware?
23:45:35 <b_jonas> and it's not just a few instances of text. it has a lot of in-game text, and also allows you to enter a character name and displays that with the proportional pitch font too
23:45:48 <zzo38> I don't think so. I know some programs on NES/Famicom use proportional text, and it would be done by writing the text into CHR RAM
23:45:59 <zzo38> I don't know much how SNES works, but it might do something similar
23:47:09 <b_jonas> how much RAM does that graphics chip have? can it store four separate character tables, each of 255 cells, for the four layers?
23:47:28 <b_jonas> maybe it only uses two layers
23:47:34 <b_jonas> there are various video moeds
23:48:14 <ais523> b_jonas: IIRC the NES could use CHR RAM that was stored on the cartridge (rather than the console)
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23:48:25 <ais523> so there was no limit in the console, but the more you wanted, the more expensive the cartridge would have to be
23:48:34 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah, that seems possible, if the rom is fast enough
23:49:08 <ais523> it wouldn't surprise me if the SNES worked the same way
23:49:59 <zzo38> In NES, the console has only 2K RAM for the PPU (usually used only for the name tables, not the pattern tables), and the cartridge contains ROM or RAM for the pattern tables.
23:50:34 <b_jonas> ok, but this is the SNES, its hardware is a bit stronger
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23:50:49 <zzo38> Yes, but I don't know how it is work on SNES
23:51:17 <ais523> the N64 allowed you to add extra RAM in the controller
23:51:42 <b_jonas> rendering proportional width text into RAM purely in CPU is quite a feat though
23:51:49 <ais523> this seems like an implausible UX decision, so most likely it was a combination of backwards-compatibility decisions
23:52:05 <b_jonas> ais523: in the *controller*? wtf
23:52:26 <ais523> b_jonas: yes; out of all the places to put it, I might not have guessed that one at all
23:52:52 <ais523> my guess as to what happened is that they allowed add-ons to be placed in the controller for, e.g., rumble units and tilt sensors
23:52:57 <b_jonas> PCs had the joystick port on sound cards
23:53:12 <ais523> then when they started making games that needed additional RAM, the controller add-on slot was the most convenient place to put it
23:53:13 <pikhq> I know you could have memory cards in there, but wait, was the protocol actually fast enough to use for something other than save games?
23:53:17 <b_jonas> sure, but why would they have a controller connector that's fast enough to relay RAM?
23:53:35 <b_jonas> a tilt sensor or vibrating motor wouldn't need much bandwidth
23:53:35 <kmc> I thought the RAM goes in that port on the top of the N64
23:53:37 <kmc> maybe both?
23:53:41 <pikhq> ais523: Uh, the N64 Expansion Pak was not a controller addon.
23:53:49 <ais523> pikhq: oh, OK, that makes more sense
23:54:07 <kmc> this one goes in the console itself https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_64_accessories#Expansion_Pak_(NUS-007)
23:54:21 <ais523> in a way it's a pity I misremembered, because the mismemory was pretty eso
23:54:43 <pikhq> The N64 used RDRAM, and the Expansion Pak plugged into a custom RDRAM slot on the console.
23:54:55 <b_jonas> ais523: some of the things those 8-bit consoles and games do are pretty eso, or seem like that to me anyway
23:55:07 <kmc> kind of crazy to think that thing had only 4MB of RAM out of the box
23:55:08 <pikhq> Because it was RDRAM, you had to pull out the RDRAM bus terminator to put it in.
23:55:36 <kmc> what's the deal with RDRAM
23:56:29 <pikhq> Proprietary high bandwidth but high latency bus that DDR beat out.
23:57:31 <b_jonas> and now we have like DDR4 or something
23:57:32 <kmc> yeah but what specifically makes it different from other DRAM
23:57:35 <b_jonas> I'm not sure what the latest is
23:57:53 <kmc> the N64 had 4 MB of RAM on a 500 MB/s bus
23:59:00 <b_jonas> though of course it depends on what the latency is
23:59:04 <b_jonas> and how the cpu can use it
23:59:09 <pikhq> RDRAM used a substantially more serial bus, clocked at a higher speed.
23:59:34 <pikhq> The N64 had a 9 bit bus to its RAM, clocked at 500 MHz.
23:59:53 <b_jonas> but then, it needs the high speed because the N64 has a pretty powerful graphics chipset
00:00:06 <b_jonas> I assume the graphics has to read from the RAM quickly
00:00:21 <pikhq> By way of comparison, DDR 1 has a 64-bit bus width.
00:01:36 <pikhq> And the latencies were kinda dumb. PC-800 RAM had a 45 ns latency.
00:02:07 <b_jonas> RAM latencies are always high. they have to be because of the physical distances involved. the signal can't travel faster than light speed.
00:02:23 <pikhq> 45 ns is 4 times higher than DDR.
00:02:42 <pikhq> Or more, if you aren't looking at the _slowest_ variety.
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00:04:37 <oerjan> <b_jonas> fizzie: I still don't understand why Hungary can have settlements called Csabaszabadi, Rábaszentandrás, Rábaszentmihály, and Rábaszentmiklós <-- you do realize one has to know hungarian to get anything more than "given the prior discussion there's probably some bad words hidden in there, but i have no idea which ones", right?
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00:11:03 <oerjan> fantastic timing there
00:11:46 <shachaf> is it just me or is "you do realize ..., right?" a very rude idiom?
00:12:28 <shachaf> usually people say it when they think someone doesn't realize something, but also it's so obvious that they should realize it and feel bad for not having done so
00:13:08 <shachaf> or otherwise accusing them of saying something wrong despite realizing
00:15:20 <oerjan> i should perhaps have rephrased. i was annoyed, and then got _more_ annoyed because it's so awkward to edit long lines in irssi.
00:15:31 <shachaf> I mean, it's also a standard idiom.
00:15:40 <shachaf> I'm just confusil that it's so standard when it seems so rude.
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00:16:01 <oerjan> that's because these days it's standard to be rude hth
00:16:12 <HackEso> Your omnidryad saddle principal ideal golfing toe-obsessed "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty eldrazi grinch is a punctual expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it.
00:16:42 <oerjan> heck, even "is it just me" has rude connotations.
00:16:55 <oerjan> (to play the ball back)
00:17:08 <shachaf> fight rudeness with rudeness
00:20:37 <kmc> "You do realize that starting a sentence with 'You do realize' makes you sound like a dick, right?"
00:20:45 <kmc> but whatever
00:22:02 <shachaf> it's `c̀ool to be rudé´ on the internet, isn't it
00:22:47 <shachaf> you gotta do it ironically. but on the internet doing something ironically is the same as actually doing it.
00:22:59 <int-e> shachaf: I believe the proper term is "condescending".
00:23:45 * oerjan looks askance at int-e for sending him on a schlock mercenary binge
00:23:49 <zzo38> I think it helps to be clarified though
00:23:50 <int-e> shachaf: You should appreciate the fact that I did not start that sentence with "You do realize that". :-P
00:24:14 <int-e> (But I couldn't help myself.)
00:24:29 <kmc> one of the reasons I stopped using Twitter is that rude / condescending seems to be the norm there
00:24:32 <kmc> of course, it depends who you follow
00:24:40 <kmc> but I found myself doing it too and that sucks
00:24:42 <shachaf> my twitterxperiences seem different from yours
00:25:09 <shachaf> probably because of a superior unfollow policy
00:25:20 <int-e> oerjan: The author's advice is to skip the first couple of years. (That said, I enjoyed those as well.)
00:25:28 <shachaf> where if people said things that made me sad and didn't produce a lot of other value i'd stop reading their things
00:25:33 <kmc> but I think to the degree people talk about politics and stuff, the default is either sarcastic dismissal or condescending mini-lectures
00:25:41 <kmc> which are meant more to get applause from the people who already agree
00:25:49 <int-e> (But the writing and art has imrproved noticably since then.)
00:25:53 <kmc> shachaf: yeah well it helps if you aren't following people who are bad for you out of guilt
00:26:02 <kmc> a happier thing
00:26:09 <kmc> there have been many cats on this trip
00:26:11 <kmc> https://imgur.com/a/LzI4Rlb
00:26:44 <zzo38> They don't give me permission to access /dev/vcsa1 even though I am logged in to that one
00:26:46 <shachaf> cats are pretty reasonable creatures
00:26:55 <oerjan> int-e: i didn't start at the beginning, i googled for "fermi paradox" and am currently in late 2016.
00:26:57 <kmc> I was at another house which had 7 cats, but i didn't see any of them
00:27:07 <kmc> they were hiding from the three dogs and many humans
00:27:49 <shachaf> I visited a place that had two cats but one of them was of the scaredy variety.
00:27:58 <shachaf> It took several days before he even came out of hiding.
00:28:11 <shachaf> But eventually he came and sat on me and purred!
00:28:22 <shachaf> Which is a thing few people can say, apparently.
00:29:31 <shachaf> The other cat was of the same notch.
00:29:45 <shachaf> Come to think of it, I'm hard-pressed to think of any other notch of cat.
00:31:59 <HackEso> Cats are cool, but should be illegal.
00:33:01 <shachaf> Did you know writing C is the best?
00:33:16 <fizzie> Cats are kind of unpredictable. When we got a cat and let it out of the carrying cage at home for the first time, we expected it to do the normal cat thing of finding a corner to hide in and then carefully exploring out, but it just went immediately around every room and in general just behaved as if it had always lived there.
00:33:26 <int-e> I actually wrote some C today. Nothing useful.
00:33:49 <shachaf> They're unpredictable because they're mammals with a brain+personality.
00:33:55 <shachaf> Which is pretty great. I'm a fan of mammals.
00:33:58 <int-e> I wrote more Coq today than that... nothing useful either ;-)
00:34:28 <int-e> (I suppose technically the Coq stuff happened yesterday.)
00:34:47 <oerjan> seems my binge has covered only about a year, and it still ruined my sleep cycle.
00:34:47 <shachaf> Did you see the fancy C printf I did?
00:34:56 <shachaf> http://slbkbs.org/tmp/fmt.txt
00:35:34 <shachaf> Hmm, it's made some kinds of debugging a bit faster.
00:35:51 <shachaf> I think it may be a little too hacky to actually use for real code, but I'm not sure.
00:39:21 <int-e> the CUSTOM_FMT_TYPES probably doesn't scale just like that?
00:39:49 <shachaf> Every argument expands to something that includes _Generic(..., CUSTOM_FMT_TYPES)
00:40:49 <shachaf> So it's probably not a good idea to put any ol' type in it.
00:41:32 <int-e> though I guess you could hack something slightly more robust with a central registry and some __attribute__((constructor)) magic.
00:41:34 <shachaf> But it's nice to put a few standard types in it. So you can outfmt("position is {}", v); rather than printf("position is %f,%f", v.x, v.y);
00:41:50 <shachaf> How would you get the type information?
00:42:29 <fizzie> It's invalid to have two associations that specify compatible types, so I guess that directly rules out custom formatting of anything that appears in the "...".
00:42:59 <shachaf> Sure. But the ... is just a few built-in types.
00:43:10 <zzo38> For structures you define yourself, you can use zero length arrays to determine a type identifier at compile time, at least in GNU C.
00:43:11 <int-e> shachaf: Right, I wouldn't. I missed the point that the format specifiers don't actually describe the type.
00:43:32 <shachaf> If you really cared you could have a flag to take the built-in types out and make everything custom.
00:44:02 <shachaf> Also, some format specifiers just ignore the type. So you can use {:p} to print out a pointer regardless of the type.
00:44:11 <shachaf> Presumably I could make those customizable as well.
00:44:54 <shachaf> outfmt("{:your_thing}", your_thing_value);, where you have to take care to match up your_thing with the type.
00:45:48 <shachaf> But it's sure nice when it's automatic, and you don't have to remember to do %ld or %zu or %"PRIi64" or whatever!
00:46:33 <int-e> The PR* macros do look messy.
00:47:05 <shachaf> I just wish C had a bit of runtime type information for this kind of thing.
00:47:23 <int-e> guess what the surrounding code is doing: printf("%08"PRIx32"%08"PRIx32"%08"PRIx32"%08"PRIx32"\n", bswap_32(H.a), bswap_32(H.b), bswap_32(H.c), bswap_32(H.d));
00:48:12 <zzo38> I think that often you can use compile time type information and you do not need runtime type information.
00:48:18 <int-e> (that line is printing an md5 hash)
00:48:24 <shachaf> zzo38: OK, then I wish C had that.
00:48:32 <fizzie> int-e: I guessed MD5 from the a, b, c, d names and the 128 bits.
00:48:47 <shachaf> Oh, I have a line that prints a sha1 hash.
00:48:49 <int-e> fizzie: yeah, that was the idea.
00:49:02 <shachaf> "%02x%02x%02x%02x%02x%02x%02x%02x%02x%02x%02x%02x%02x%02x%02x%02x%02x%02x%02x%02x"
00:49:09 <int-e> fizzie: that one could reasonably infer MD5 from precisely those bits.
00:49:21 <zzo38> shachaf: I mentioned a way in which you can sometimes do it, in GNU C. (GNU C also has some other built-ins which may be helpful for type information too)
00:49:27 <fizzie> It took me too long to look up the RFC to validate the guess, unfortunately.
00:49:33 <int-e> (and maybe the H which is a common abbreviation for hashes)
00:49:54 <fizzie> I think SHA-1 adds an "E".
00:50:03 <int-e> fizzie: I didn't think anyone would seriously take me up on this, so sorry for not waiting longer. :)
00:50:25 <shachaf> Hmm, is this a use of byte swap that doesn't depend on machine endianness?
00:50:39 <int-e> shachaf: because that's the order in which the bytes of the word are usually printed, least significant byte first.
00:50:59 <int-e> But the hash itself is defined by operating on 32 bit words.
00:51:15 <int-e> (four of them at a time)
00:51:33 <shachaf> Oh man, MD5 is specified to be little-endian?
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00:51:50 <shachaf> I implemented sha1 a few days ago and it's specified to be big-endian.
00:52:12 <shachaf> Of course nowadays you should use neither of these hashes. But sha1 is by far not the worst part of the thing I was implementing.
00:53:05 <fizzie> I know for sure I've implemented either MD5 or SHA-1 (or both) for *something*, but I have no recollection what it could've been for.
00:53:30 <shachaf> I've implemented sha1 at least twice.
00:53:45 <shachaf> The first time was in Ruby and operating on strings of the characters '0' and '1'
00:53:47 <int-e> shachaf: "The message digest produced as output is A, B, C, D. That is, we begin with the low-order byte of A, and end with the high-order byte of D."
00:53:59 <int-e> So yeah, little endian is specified.
00:53:59 <shachaf> It was for a length extension attack for a capture the flag context. I think kmc did it as well.
00:54:00 * pikhq has implemented a number of cryptographic primitives for shits and giggles
00:54:16 <ais523> the funny thing is that the byte order in cryptohashes is completely arbitrary anyway
00:54:22 <ais523> so it's not even little-endian, it's more like ABCD-endian
00:54:23 <pikhq> Chacha20 is one of the more pleasant ones.
00:54:47 <pikhq> (too dumb to fuck up that hard)
00:55:17 <shachaf> I like the thing Bernstein says about how if people keep not implementing your primitives correctly then you should fix the primitives rather than blame the implementors.
00:55:47 <kmc> how about we do both
00:55:56 <pikhq> I can get behind that one.
00:56:17 <pikhq> Devs should be more rigorous with crypto code, but crypto primitives should tolerate worse programmers than they do currently.
00:56:20 <shachaf> If every single implementor does it wrong?
00:56:29 <ais523> then you have Underload :-D
00:57:01 <int-e> shachaf: you should have a reference implementation? (which may be wrong)
00:57:27 <shachaf> int-e: By "correctly" I include things like being constant time.
00:57:36 <shachaf> Not just the values computed.
00:57:36 <ais523> the only cases which come to mind where a cryptoprimitive may be "too hard" to implement are to do with sidechannels
00:57:44 <ais523> like the timing issues shachaf mentioned
00:57:55 <ais523> I'm not sure constant-time operations are even possible on modern processors
00:58:11 <ais523> given that they're effectively miniature JITs
00:58:19 <int-e> "constant-time" means "distribution of times does not depend on inputs" ;-)
00:58:22 <zzo38> ais523: That is one thing I wanted to make the computer that does have constant-time operations.
00:58:28 <pikhq> They often aren't, but for cryptographic purposes you don't care about being constant-time per se.
00:58:39 <pikhq> You care about having execution time that is not a function of secret data.
00:58:50 <ais523> zzo38: many older processors do, e.g. the 6502 has rigidly defined timing rules for every operation, which can be used to make delays that last a precise number of clock cycles
00:59:02 <zzo38> Yes, I want to do like that.
00:59:11 <pikhq> Constant time is a nice way to get there, but it is strictly more powerful than needed to avoid timing side-channels.
00:59:47 <ais523> the hardware compilers I was working on used constant-time operations where possible in order to choreograph the pipelining
01:00:22 <ais523> (instead of doing things like register forwarding, they used pipelining for parallelism, effectively running a large number of different threads through the implementations of the same instructions; I suspect modern GPUs do something similar)
01:01:02 <pikhq> Of course, if you're the NSA you have a vested interest in getting people to use ciphers that are _hard_ to avoid timing side-channels in.
01:01:04 <ais523> even then, though, power draw would be an obvious alternative side-channel to use
01:01:35 <ais523> I think secure smart-cards do things like storing every bit as a pair of a 0 and a 1 so that the power draw when processing it is approximately constant
01:01:42 <shachaf> Power draw seems much less concerning than timing.
01:02:10 <pikhq> It shouldn't be discounted, but whether or not it matters depends a lot on your threat model.
01:02:59 <pikhq> e.g. are you concerned about leaking secret data to someone in physical proximity to the device, or just someone with access to timing data in some fashion?
01:03:02 <shachaf> I mean that it's much less widely applicable.
01:03:22 <pikhq> You mean to tell me you can't measure power usage over the Internet?
01:04:32 <shachaf> Do you like https://sorting.cr.yp.to/ ?
01:05:22 <ais523> pikhq: there are known side-channel attacks where people have measured power usage over the internet by using it to indirectly affect the room temperature, then determine /that/ from timing attacks
01:05:31 <int-e> shachaf: Oh MD5 actually mixes endianness... 0x80 is the first bit of a byte. (This is visible in the specification because MD5 actually supports bit string messages whose length is not divisible by 8).
01:05:32 <ais523> I think, at least, it's a vague memory from a while ago
01:05:40 <ais523> somehow I doubt that that technique is very accurate :-D
01:05:47 <shachaf> int-e: Ah, right, the padding works by appending a 1 bit.
01:07:25 <pikhq> ais523: This sounds hard to pull off except in some limited cases.
01:08:15 <ais523> you'd probably have to concentrate on trying to magnify the effect of a single bit of the secret data as far as possible, running the same computation billions of times
01:13:07 <ais523> according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_analysis the attack's mainly used by people with physical access, I can see why
01:18:18 <orin> Firefox put out a blog post, which still doesn't adress the root of the problem
01:18:54 <orin> which is that they designed their system such that a single certificate caused all add-ons to be disabled, for everyone, everywhere
01:19:22 <ais523> orin: actually, what worries me more is that they can somehow fix the issue without re-signing every add-on
01:22:56 <orin> the fact that they disabled everyone's adblock is a giant security risk. probably much bigger than allowing unsigned add ons
01:25:31 <orin> the way I see it, they should check the addons when they are installed. but never disable a previously installed add one
01:34:37 <zzo38> They should check them once they are installed, and then warn the user if it is not valid but allow installing it anyways if the user accepts it (the user must accept it even if the certificate is valid, because they might not want to install it), and then don't disable a previously installed add-on (the exception is if the user has enabled automatic updates for that add-on, the add-on has been revoked, and the user hasn't disabled revoking add-on
01:42:59 <pikhq> ais523: I think that's just x509 being a touch weird. You sign things with the secret key associated with a cert, but trust based on the cert itself. So if you get a renewed cert with the same secret key, all those signatures are magically valid when tested against the new cert.
01:56:23 <ais523> apparently there's a remote power usage attack nowadays using FPGAs; presumably you have access to the FPGA on one user account, and are trying to attack data it doesn't have access to side-channel-wise
01:56:35 <ais523> FPGAs are configurable enough that getting one of them to detect power drain seems viable
01:56:56 <ais523> but of course, it's still fairly rare for computers to contain software-configurable FPGA coprocessors (not unheard of, though)
02:00:09 <int-e> https://aws.amazon.com/ec2/instance-types/f1/
02:01:28 <int-e> (cloud servers are a juicy target for side channel attacks)
02:01:57 <ais523> the real problem with FPGA coprocessing is trying to find a task that FPGAs are good at but both CPUs and GPUS are bad at
02:02:08 <ais523> (this is difficult because FPGAs are somewhere between CPUs and GPUs in terms of performance properties)
02:03:28 <int-e> https://www.csail.mit.edu/news/programmers-solve-mits-20-year-old-cryptographic-puzzle may be such a thing - essentially: multiplying large but fixed size numbers (2048 bits in that case).
02:04:36 <ais523> OK, so you use your entire FPGA space to create yourself a combinatorial multiplier, I guess, and use that? CPUs and GPUs will typically have combinatorial multipliers, but not ones 2048 bits wide
02:05:10 <ais523> although I'm not sure if a typical FPGA even has that much logic space; I think some of the really expensive large ones would
02:05:32 <int-e> essentially FPGAs have massive bandwidth
02:05:54 <int-e> while memory bandwidth is limited on CPUs and on GPUs as well.
02:06:05 <ais523> well the "square this number trillions of times" problem doesn't really need bandwidth, just a really fast squaring circuit
02:06:19 <ais523> squaring is probably less space-intensive than multiplication due to symmetry
02:06:41 <int-e> but I'd agree that it's hard to find tasks where using FPGAs pays off.
02:06:47 <ais523> FPGAs are also fairly limited on memory bandwidth but they let you put special-purpose caches in random places, which makes up for it
02:07:51 <int-e> Yeah but you *can* operate on many bits in parallel and also propagate that information to the next functional building block in a massively parallel fashion.
02:08:12 <ais523> int-e: that's what a combinatorial circuit is
02:08:16 <int-e> GPUs can do the former, but fail at the latter.
02:08:26 <ais523> a function as complex as you like, running in just a single clock cycle
02:08:44 <ais523> GPUs are actually fairly good at the propagation, the problem is just that they have to loop through their list of instructions to get there
02:09:03 <ais523> so they're never going to be as fast as the combinatorial solution
02:09:27 <ais523> that said, I hate to think how complex the circuit would have to be to run the clock at all fast when you're trying to multiply 2048 bits per cycle
02:12:24 <int-e> Well from the data in the article, the CPU is taking over a microsecond per modular squaring, 4k clock cycles. You're trying to beat that, so it doesn't have to run in a single clock cycle at all.
02:13:12 <int-e> "Cryptophage can do one 2048 bit modular squaring approximately every 70 nanoseconds. In comparison, a high-end desktop processor would take over 1000 nanoseconds to complete the same operation."
02:20:17 <int-e> I wish they would say what FPGA they used for that... will have to wait.
02:20:41 <int-e> But I should also sleep...
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02:24:50 <ais523> looking up some statistics on large FPGA multipiers, I'd predict about 40ns per clock cycle for a 2048-bit karatsuba-ofman multiplier (which is combinatorial), space usage seems pretty frightening but should still be well under a million LUTs
02:25:20 <ais523> that said, the FPGA would almost certainly run out of dedicated multiplication circuits unless it were very large, so you'd have to build them out of logic gates
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02:34:17 <zzo38> I get a "Invalid argument" error when trying to use GIO_FONTX to read the font from the screen. Why doesn't it work?
02:35:26 <zzo38> Loading the palette works, and loading the contents of the screen also works, but the font doesn't work.
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03:20:42 <zzo38> I found out by looking at other program source codes that KDFONTOP works, so now it works.
03:37:53 <zzo38> Now I made the ff-vccapture program, which works for me, but if it doesn't work on your computer then you should please report it (and if you know how to fix it, report that too).
03:55:19 <zzo38> Now they did something else in the Magic: the Gathering rules: Now there are no line feeds.
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03:57:24 <weston> !ztest name [-][-]+[+]>+++++>>-[+]<[-]--[]>[++]+>>++<+++++++>+>>[+]<<+>++++++++<+[+]+++<+++++++<+[+]+++++++++>+[+]+<+++[+]+>++++++++<+[+]+<++++++++<+<+++++++++>+>+++>+<<+<+>++[+]+<+++++++>+[+]+<+++++++>+>++>[+]+++>++++++++<+[+]+++<++++++++<+<+++++++++>+>++>[+]<<+<+>+<+++++>+>++>[+]<++++>+++++++++++++[+]+<+++++++>+>++>[+]+++>++++++++<+[+]+++<++++++++<+<+++++++++>+>++>[+]<<+<+>+<+++++>+>++>[+]<++++>++++++++<+[+]+++<+++++++<+[+]++++++
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04:00:31 <weston> !ztest 46a1700 +++[]+++[+]+++++++[-[-]]++++++[[+]-]+++++[+]++++++++>>+>++>[+]++>+++++++++++<+[+]+
04:01:13 <weston> !ztest z <-+>+++[++--]+++[+]+++++++[-[-]]++++++[[+]-]+++++[+]++++++++>>+>++>[+]><+++->++++++++<>+++<+[+]+
04:01:22 <weston> !ztest z -+>+++[++--]+++[+]+++++++[-[-]]++++++[[+]-]+++++[+]++++++++>>+>++>[+]><+++->++++++++<>+++<+[+]+
04:01:48 <weston> !ztest z +++[]+++[+]+++++++[-[-]]++++++[[+]-]+++++[+]++++++++>>+>++>[+]++>+++++++++++<+[+]+
04:02:31 <weston> !ztest z [+>+>+<++>+<+>[+]+++>++++++++<+[+]++>[+]+++>+++++++<+[+]+++++<++>+<[+]+++<[++]++++++>+>++++++++<+[+]+++++++>+>+>++++<+++++++<++>+<+]++++++++<+[+]+++++++>+>+>++++<++++++[++]<+++++++>-[+]++++++++<[+]+++>++++++++<+<[+]+++<+[+]+++++++>+>+<++>+<+>[+]+++>++++++++[+]++>[+]++>+++++++<+[+]+<+[<]+++++++>+>+<++>+<+>[+]+++>++++>>++++++>+>+++++>+++++++<+[+]+++++++++>+>++>[+]<++<<<+>+<+++++++>[+]---->++++++>[+]---->-[-]+++++>[++<+++++++
04:02:31 <zemhill_______> weston: error: parse error: starting [ without a matching ]
04:02:43 <weston> !ztest z [+>+>+<++>+<+>[+]+++>++++++++<+[+]++>[+]+++>+++++++<+[+]+++++<++>+<[+]+++<[++]++++++>+>++++++++<+[+]+++++++>+>+>++++<+++++++<++>+<+]++++++++<+[+]+++++++>+>+>++++<++++++[++]<+++++++>-[+]++++++++<[+]+++>++++++++<+<[+]+++<+[+]+++++++>+>+<++>+<+>[+]+++>++++++++[+]++>[+]++>+++++++<+[+]+<+[<]+++++++>+>+<++>+<+>[+]+++>++++>>++++++>+>+++++>+++++++<+[+]+++++++++>+>++>[+]<++<<<+>+<+++++++>[+]---->++++++>[+]---->-[-]+++++>[++<+++++++
04:02:43 <zemhill_______> weston: error: parse error: starting [ without a matching ]
04:03:34 <weston> !ztest z [+>+>+<++>+<+>[+]+++>++++++++<+[+]++>[+]+++>+++++++<+[+]+++++<++>+<[+]+++<[++]++++++>+>++++++++<+[+]+++++++>+>+>++++<+++++++<++>+<+]++++++++<+[+]+++++++>+>+>++++<++++++[++]<+++++++>-[+]++++++++<[+]+++>++++++++<+<[+]+++<+[+]+++++++>+>+<++>+<+>[+]+++>++++++++[+]++>[+]++>+++++++<+[+]+<+[<]+++++++>+>+<++>+<+>[+]+++>++++>>++++++>+>+++++>+++++++<+[+]+++++++++>+>++>[+]<++<<<+>+<+++++++>[+]---->++++++>[+]---->-[-]+++++>[++<+++++++
04:03:34 <zemhill_______> weston: error: parse error: starting [ without a matching ]
04:03:45 <weston> !ztest z +>+>+<++>+<+>[+]+++>++++++++<+[+]++>[+]+++>+++++++<+[+]+++++<++>+<[+]+++<[++]++++++>+>++++++++<+[+]+++++++>+>+>++++<+++++++<++>+<+]++++++++<+[+]+++++++>+>+>++++<++++++[++]<+++++++>-[+]++++++++<[+]+++>++++++++<+<[+]+++<+[+]+++++++>+>+<++>+<+>[+]+++>++++++++[+]++>[+]++>+++++++<+[+]+<+[<]+++++++>+>+<++>+<+>[+]+++>++++>>++++++>+>+++++>+++++++<+[+]+++++++++>+>++>[+]<++<<<+>+<+++++++>[+]---->++++++>[+]---->-[-]+++++>[++<+++++++<
04:03:45 <zemhill_______> weston: error: parse error: terminating ] without a matching [
04:03:57 <weston> !ztest z [+>+>+<++>+<+>[+]+++>++++++++<+[+]++>[+]+++>+++++++<+[+]+++++<++>+<[+]+++<[++]++++++>+>++++++++<+[+]+++++++>+>+>++++<+++++++<++>+<+]++++++++<+[+]+++++++>+>+>++++<++++++[++]<+++++++>-[+]++++++++<[+]+++>++++++++<+<[+]+++<+[+]+++++++>+>+<++>+<+>[+]+++>++++++++[+]++>[+]++>+++++++<+[+]+<+[<]+++++++>+>+<++>+<+>[+]+++>++++>>++++++>+>+++++>+++++++<+[+]+++++++++>+>++>[+]<++<<<+>+<+++++++>[+]---->++++++>[+]---->-[-]+++++>[++<+++++++
04:03:57 <zemhill_______> weston: error: parse error: starting [ without a matching ]
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04:19:48 <esowiki> [[Keg/Golfing]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61738&oldid=61725 * JonoCode9374 * (+36) /* Tips that do not seem to fit anywhere but still relate to golfing */ Is this what you meant?
04:20:28 <esowiki> [[Keg/Golfing]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61739&oldid=61738 * JonoCode9374 * (+2) /* Tips that do not seem to fit anywhere but still relate to golfing */ I cant format
04:24:15 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61740&oldid=61717 * JonoCode9374 * (-12) /* For Loops */ very minor editing
04:26:36 <esowiki> [[Keg/Golfing]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61741&oldid=61739 * JonoCode9374 * (-36) /* Problem #1. Golf the Hello, World! program. */ Just some formatting
04:28:38 <esowiki> [[Keg/Golfing]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61742&oldid=61741 * JonoCode9374 * (-42) Just some formatting things.
04:30:11 <esowiki> [[User:JonoCode9374]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61743&oldid=61732 * JonoCode9374 * (+43) very minor
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05:28:22 <zzo38> My own method of posting NNTP articles is to prepare a "POSTQUIT file" and then to use "nc localhost 119 < article" to send it.
05:33:11 <zzo38> I have seen apparently some software that can display NNTP articles on a webpage will parse the text as markdown. I think that it should not do that unless the article contains a "Content-type: text/markdown" header; that indicates that it is in markdown format, so it is sensible to parse it as markdown in that case.
05:47:52 <shachaf> int-e: Do you think there's any solution for this fmt thing other than _Generic?
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05:57:38 <zzo38> What does _Generic mean?
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06:08:03 <shachaf> zzo38: It's a C99 feature.
06:08:46 <shachaf> _Generic(x, type1: value1, type2: value2: default: value3) will have the value value1 if x's type is type1, and so on.
06:08:57 <shachaf> It's how I made that fmt thing work.
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07:40:02 <esowiki> [[User:JonoCode9374]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61744&oldid=61743 * JonoCode9374 * (-94) Very minor edit here folks.
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10:26:19 <wob_jonas> "<int-e> https://www.csail.mit.edu/news/programmers-solve-mits-20-year-old-cryptographic-puzzle may be such a thing - essentially: multiplying large but fixed size numbers (2048 bits in that case)." => that link is broken, or my firefox is broken
10:27:28 <wob_jonas> "<oerjan> you do realize one has to know hungarian to get anything more than "given the prior discussion there's probably some bad words hidden in there, but i have no idea which ones", right?" => nah, I've seen people know swearwords in dozens of languages. apparently it's a useful skill for driving a car.
10:27:44 <wob_jonas> so you can insult anyone on the road or something.
10:28:52 <wob_jonas> "<int-e> "constant-time" means "distribution of times does not depend on inputs" ;-)" => I'm not sure that's enough. the distrib also shouldn't depend on process state that the CPU might know about other than the inputs for that one operation too
10:32:07 <wob_jonas> zzo38: reading the font => is it a tty device, on linux, in VGA text mode (as opposed to linux framebuffer text console, which uses graphics mode of the video card)?
10:32:33 <wob_jonas> "<zzo38> Now they did something else in the Magic: the Gathering rules: Now there are no line feeds." => who are they?
10:33:46 <wob_jonas> shachaf: um, you could try to use C++ if you want to dispatch among types.
10:34:01 <wob_jonas> it's usually not too difficult to convert real C programs to C++
10:34:39 <wob_jonas> especially because there's a high amount of binary compatibility and header source compatibility, so you can convert only a subset of compilation units
10:37:46 <shachaf> Also, every real C program is undefined behavior in C++.
10:39:55 <Taneb> Most real C programs are undefined behaviour in C
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10:41:42 <int-e> wob_jonas: it comes down to defining "input" properly.
10:44:34 <wob_jonas> and it gets tricky, because not only does your special crypto algorithm have to be constant time, that would be easy, you also mustn't leak information in side channels in all the other non-crypto stuff that you run, unless they're definitely isolated from your secret data,
10:44:36 <int-e> wob_jonas: and maybe I should stress that this should hold in the presence of adverserial workloads (that selectively flush cashes etc.)
10:44:39 <wob_jonas> and in the end it just all gets impossible
10:56:23 <int-e> . o O ( please allow cookies from our site so that we know that you do not want us to track you. )
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13:31:38 <esowiki> [[Keg/Golfing]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61745&oldid=61742 * A * (+102) Combine the tips into 9 tips
13:34:30 <esowiki> [[Keg/Golfing]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61746&oldid=61745 * A * (-145) Delete a trivial tip (add it when functions are implemented)
13:36:49 <esowiki> [[Keg/Golfing]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61747&oldid=61746 * A * (+76) /* Problem #1. Golf the Hello, World! program. */
13:37:32 <esowiki> [[Keg/Golfing]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61748&oldid=61747 * A * (+2) grm: add subject that the pronoun refers to
13:42:11 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61749&oldid=61740 * A * (-1) Minor typo
13:46:53 <esowiki> [[Keg/Golfing]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61750&oldid=61748 * A * (+269) Add a tip that I recently concluded
13:57:52 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61751&oldid=61749 * A * (-6) Tried my best to golf the Deadfish interpreter again
13:58:17 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61752&oldid=61751 * A * (+0) /* Deadfish */
14:03:45 <esowiki> [[Keg/Golfing]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61753&oldid=61750 * A * (+398)
14:04:52 <esowiki> [[Keg/Golfing]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61754&oldid=61753 * A * (-4) Whoa, I used the same code snippet.
14:05:50 <esowiki> [[Keg/Golfing]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61755&oldid=61754 * A * (-13) /* Problem #2. Golf the Deadfish interpreter. */
14:11:21 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61756&oldid=61752 * A * (+163) /* Deadfish */
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14:14:40 <esowiki> [[Keg/Golfing]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61757&oldid=61755 * A * (+399) Use my golfing idea(golfs down another byte)
14:16:19 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61758&oldid=61756 * A * (-163) /* Deadfish */
14:17:40 <esowiki> [[Keg/Golfing]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61759&oldid=61757 * A * (+77) /* Problem #2. Golf the Deadfish interpreter. */
14:30:44 <esowiki> [[Keg/Golfing]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61760&oldid=61759 * A * (+238)
14:31:29 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61761&oldid=61758 * A * (-1) Golfed it even more
14:32:17 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61762&oldid=61685 * A * (-7) Add my golfed program in Keg.
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14:38:32 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61763&oldid=61761 * A * (-2) Slightly golfed it
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14:46:11 <esowiki> [[Keg/Golfing]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61764&oldid=61760 * A * (+1) /* Tips that do not seem to fit anywhere but still relate to golfing */
14:46:45 <esowiki> [[Keg/Golfing]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61765&oldid=61764 * A * (-15) /* Problem #2. Golf the Deadfish interpreter. */
14:47:41 <esowiki> [[Keg/Golfing]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61766&oldid=61765 * A * (+4) grm
14:50:20 <esowiki> [[Keg/Golfing]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61767&oldid=61766 * A * (-9) Combine the tips into 9 tips again
14:53:36 <esowiki> [[User:JonoCode9374]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61768&oldid=61744 * A * (+75) Add my joke post again
14:54:52 <esowiki> [[User:JonoCode9374]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61769&oldid=61768 * A * (+30) Improve my post
14:56:13 <esowiki> [[User:JonoCode9374]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61770&oldid=61769 * A * (+18) I am now sure on the subset.
14:58:54 <esowiki> [[User:JonoCode9374]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61771&oldid=61770 * A * (+56) Add details
14:59:59 <esowiki> [[User:JonoCode9374]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61772&oldid=61771 * A * (+11) More details
15:00:51 <esowiki> [[User:JonoCode9374]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61773&oldid=61772 * A * (-30) Sorry for making too many edits...
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17:24:11 <orin> I really hope the firefox people learn form this that their system shouldn't be fail-deadly
17:28:33 <fizzie> shachaf: It's a C11 feature, not a C99 feature.
17:29:38 <fizzie> <tgmath.h> was a C99 feature, but there was no way to do similar things yourself.
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17:31:43 <int-e> orin: I wish they do that. But I have little hope :P
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17:50:43 <b_jonas> fizzie: actually, while you can't do something as general as _Generic, I think you can do something similar to the tgmath macros, by checking the sizeof of the arguments
17:54:12 <shachaf> fizzie: I meant "the new one".
17:55:23 <b_jonas> sizeof doesn't evaluate its arguments, so you don't get double evaluation
18:01:58 <fizzie> I guess, but of course there's no guarantee that sizeof (float) != sizeof (double).
18:03:48 <shachaf> I defined a numof() macro that only works on arrays by doing a static assert on __builtin_types_compatible_p
18:03:58 <shachaf> Is that possible in non-__GNUC__?
18:04:29 <fizzie> I remember that being discussed, but I don't remember if anyone had any solution.
18:04:32 <b_jonas> fizzie: sure, it won't be exactly the same, because on systems where double and long double are both 8 byte long, you can't distinguish them, so you can't return the right type
18:04:41 <b_jonas> but it would be something similar, and practically usable
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18:10:16 <b_jonas> fizzie: on platforms where double and long double are the same size, such as x86_64 windows, they also have the same representation
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18:12:12 <fizzie> shachaf: Reviewing the logs, I don't think anyone came up with a non-__GNUC__ solution. The Linux kernel ARRAY_SIZE uses a GNU solution too.
18:12:16 <fizzie> (Basically __builtin_types_compatible_p(typeof(a), typeof(&a[0])).)
18:12:45 <shachaf> Logs where I asked that or someone else did?
18:13:41 <shachaf> I don't remember discussing this question.
18:14:06 <shachaf> I used typeof(a), typeof(&a[0]) at first, but now I'm using (__builtin_types_compatible_p(__typeof(*(a))[], __typeof(a)))
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18:16:27 <shachaf> Man, my macros #define Case break; case and #define Default break; default are TG.
18:19:10 <int-e> right up there with #define BEGIN {
18:20:43 <shachaf> No way, that one is terrible.
18:22:12 <shachaf> Another good macro is #define Struct(name) typedef struct name name; struct name
18:23:05 <shachaf> Speaking of C99, is it just me [non-rude version?] or does code like foo(&(Type){...}); look pretty sketchy?
18:23:54 <b_jonas> shachaf: I think aggregate constructors look fine
18:24:45 <b_jonas> in fact I think we should have used that syntax for anonymous inner functions, where Type is a function type with the argument names significant, and the braces contain a function body instead of a list of initializers
18:24:46 <shachaf> It's just the address-of thing.
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18:59:44 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61774&oldid=61494 * Helen * (+525) /* [Ongoing] Equivalency between bitch and Home Row by User:Helen and User:A */ Problem with Bool Row proof?
19:00:16 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61775&oldid=61774 * Helen * (+521) /* Computational class */ Problem with Bool Row proof
19:17:16 <fizzie> shachaf: It was on ##c.
19:17:51 <fizzie> Also: #define ever (;;)
19:18:26 <shachaf> Whereas the things I'm using are actually useful.
19:19:07 <fizzie> Did you know that Java's adding a new kind of switch, where the syntax is `case -> expression` which has an implicit break.
19:19:16 <fizzie> (And the whole switch can be used as an expression.)
19:20:35 <fizzie> String s = switch (x) { case 4 -> "yay"; default -> "sad :("; };
19:21:50 <fizzie> It's still just a JEP, so maybe "is adding" is a bit of an exaggeration.
19:22:39 <shachaf> Man, garbage collection is kind of scow.
19:22:47 <fizzie> https://openjdk.java.net/jeps/354
19:23:07 <fizzie> (A slightly different form -- https://openjdk.java.net/jeps/325 -- was already available as a preview feature in Java... 12?)
19:23:18 <fizzie> The newest proposal uses "break-with" as a hyphenated keyword.
19:28:12 <b_jonas> fizzie: I think C and C++ chose the right solution given that we're stuck with switch/break anyway: make compilers give a warning on fallthrough after a statement other than a case label, and define a standard attribute instead of magic comments to denote intentional fallthrough
19:28:23 <b_jonas> or a standard attribute in addition to magic comments
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20:03:25 <b_jonas> also, I'm going to western Netherlands for vacation the next week
20:15:16 <kmc> b_jonas: what's this attribute?
20:15:58 <kmc> magic comments are bad
20:17:32 <shachaf> __attribute__((fallthrough));
20:17:50 <shachaf> But I just have #define OrCase case and #define OrDefault default
20:17:56 <shachaf> And then I ban "case" and "default" from the code.
20:18:10 <kmc> what does that accomplish?
20:18:24 <shachaf> Well, it goes with #define Case break; case and #define Default break; default that I mentioned before.
20:18:49 <kmc> that's nasty
20:18:50 <shachaf> Then you can just write switch (x) { Case 1: foo(); Case 2: OrCase 3: bar(); Default: vaz(); }
20:31:27 <fizzie> "description = Website https://esolangs.org/ security certificate expires soon (2.589470476999998e+06 seconds)."
20:31:30 <fizzie> I don't know if the formatting of these alerts is the best, readability-wise.
20:33:39 <kmc> I'm going to be 1,000,000,000 seconds old this Halloween
20:34:38 <b_jonas> happy birthgigasecond then
20:34:43 <kmc> unfortunately I don't remember exactly when I was born, I think about 2 AM central time?
20:35:37 <kmc> and then one day you find, ten years have got behind you...
20:35:41 <kmc> or a billion seconds as the case may be
20:37:00 <kmc> i've been married for about 115,000,000 seconds
20:37:03 <kmc> b_jonas: how old are you?
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20:38:07 <kmc> so you're a little older than me
20:39:00 <kmc> i guess I just said how old I am, but "31 years" may be a more useful measurement for most
20:40:12 <kmc> why do you want to be younger?
20:40:25 <fizzie> Relatively soon I'll've been married for 400000000 seconds, is that something people usually celebrate?
20:40:33 <b_jonas> my body was much healthier ten years ago
20:40:47 <b_jonas> and lighter and stronger and more flexible
20:41:01 <b_jonas> and had a better lung capacity
20:41:04 <kmc> fizzie: no, but you could! and congratulations
20:41:07 <kmc> b_jonas: yeah
20:41:11 <kmc> getting old sucks physically
20:41:24 <kmc> in the long run we're all falling apart
20:41:30 <kmc> but I'm in much better health now than I was a year or two years ago
20:41:33 <kmc> physically and mentally
20:41:46 <b_jonas> yeah, but I want to fall apart a thousand times slower
20:41:51 <kmc> I wish I had transitioned earlier, but that's life
20:42:13 <kmc> it's never too late really, it's just that I have a lot of bad feelings to deal with from that period of putting it off :(
20:42:48 <fizzie> In Finland (and in the Netherlands, and probably a few other places) 12.5 years is one of the common celebration milestones, that's pretty close to 400 megaseconds.
20:43:03 <kmc> hm, why's that
20:43:06 <kmc> half of 25?
20:43:13 <kmc> how does one celebrate?
20:43:21 <fizzie> It's 12.5 years for copper, 25 for silver and 50 for gold.
20:43:35 <int-e> why celebrate the progress of time.
20:43:49 <fizzie> And then 1..15, 20, 25, ..., 70, 80 have their own associated labels that I can't possibly remember.
20:44:01 <kmc> I know 1 is paper
20:44:09 <kmc> I don't think I got my wife any paper, but maybe
20:44:30 <kmc> I remember we went out for okonomiyaki
20:44:48 <b_jonas> fizzie: I think 33 years is a good milestone
20:45:20 <kmc> I got her a gift certificate for a bookstore, I guess that counts
20:45:49 <kmc> apparently 4th is "Fruit & Flowers, or Linen & Silk"
20:45:52 <b_jonas> fizzie: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedding_anniversary
20:45:56 <kmc> i like those things
20:46:32 <fizzie> There's regional variation in these. The Finnish list has ceramic on 4th.
20:46:49 <int-e> . o O ( is 80 uranium because of the inevitable decay... )
20:46:51 <b_jonas> I don't think you should take those lists seriously
20:46:53 <kmc> anyway perhaps these are silly
20:47:01 <b_jonas> unless of course your spouse takes them seriously
20:47:23 <kmc> which year is ham radio equipment
20:47:48 <b_jonas> which year is a new washing machine?
20:47:50 <fizzie> In the link b_jonas posted, the "modern list" has "Appliances (electrical)" on 4th too.
20:49:30 * kmc woke up at 02:30 (home timezone) today :(
20:49:42 <kmc> I think i'll go home and nap
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22:40:40 <esowiki> [[User:JonoCode9374]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61776&oldid=61773 * JonoCode9374 * (+162) hmmm
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23:47:58 <int-e> I got my voting material... 40 parties to choose from. Crazy.
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23:48:18 <int-e> (that's for the upcoming EU election)
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23:54:31 * oerjan skipped ahead to the final mention of "fermi paradox" so now has read the end of SM's current arc. those must be some of the least fearsome dinosaurs ever!
23:55:10 <oerjan> now i just have to decide whether to read the rest of the archive O_o
23:55:15 <weston> !ztest g9500 https://gist.githubusercontent.com/westonal/aac05cc336dfa2bf9a86660b8f9ae7cc/raw/27647ce73885331e31f23d967622c8bc50a3ab76/g9500.bfjoust
23:55:56 <weston> !ztest g9500 https://gist.githubusercontent.com/westonal/aac05cc336dfa2bf9a86660b8f9ae7cc/raw/27647ce73885331e31f23d967622c8bc50a3ab76/g9500.bfjoust
23:56:05 <weston> !ztest g9501 https://gist.githubusercontent.com/westonal/aac05cc336dfa2bf9a86660b8f9ae7cc/raw/27647ce73885331e31f23d967622c8bc50a3ab76/g9500.bfjoust
23:56:25 <weston> !ztest g9500 https://gist.githubusercontent.com/westonal/aac05cc336dfa2bf9a86660b8f9ae7cc/raw/8ea8bb440f350ab2fd5a54a7e76e91fd795eee56/g9500.bfjoust
00:00:31 <oerjan> weston: !ztest can be done in private (!zjoust always announces)
00:01:16 <fizzie> Gah, all those underscores.
00:02:32 <oerjan> i think it's at maximal length now...
00:03:24 <oerjan> maybe it's actually sending many more and those just get cut off :P
00:03:32 <fizzie> Probably. And despite a public holiday over here, I didn't make any progress at the reimplementation work. :/
00:04:48 <oerjan> at some point it should get refused due to exceeding line length
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00:11:05 <int-e> oerjan: there are far worse ways to waste one's time :)
00:11:14 <fizzie> Yes, that's kind of concerning. Because I don't think it will actually restart properly.
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00:20:23 <weston> Hey, sorry! I assumed it was private
00:21:19 <weston> New to IRC, how do I do private?
00:21:49 <fizzie> Usually "/query zemhill_______" opens a private window.
00:22:00 <fizzie> (I think it does in the webchat as well.)
00:29:29 <esowiki> [[Bootstrap]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61777&oldid=61660 * Oerjan * (-13) Partial revert to compiler: I don't think it makes sense to consider self-interpreters bootstrapping, because then you need to keep another implementation around to run it even after the "bootstrap".
00:30:57 <oerjan> fizzie: in other news, my change to the history page titles still doesn't seem to have taken effect.
00:32:42 <int-e> oerjan: the dinosaurs aren't scary by themselves, it's what they may evolve into that is the stuff of nightmares :)
00:33:09 <int-e> anyway, that was the idea that I liked and still like a lot.
00:33:34 <esowiki> [[Bootstrap]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61778&oldid=61777 * Oerjan * (+68) Elaborate a bit more
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00:35:03 <oerjan> . o O ( i take it int-e doesn't like birds )
00:36:10 <int-e> They are freaks of nature. :P
00:37:01 <int-e> (Of course this is basically true of any species whatsoever.)
00:40:44 <esowiki> [[(PTM)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61779&oldid=61712 * Oerjan * (-5) /* Links & Further reading */ Standard header
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03:56:04 <shachaf> whoa, Windows is replacing WSL with actual Linux.
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10:27:35 <esowiki> [[Timeline of esoteric programming languages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61780&oldid=59205 * A * (+347) Put feature languages into this timeline (they are definitely important)
10:33:03 <esowiki> [[Keg/Golfing]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61781&oldid=61767 * A * (+42) /* Problem #2. Golf the Deadfish interpreter. */
10:39:27 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61782&oldid=61411 * A * (+145) Add an idea
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12:24:37 <int-e> https://www.bergfex.com/tirol/wetter/stationen/innsbruck-flughafen/ looks like somebody fixed an HTML injection problem. :-)
12:25:21 <lambdabot> LOWI 071220Z 15006KT 100V210 CAVOK 12/M01 Q1016 NOSIG
12:26:24 <int-e> (it's funny; the dewpoint estimates tend to differ by about one degree despite the measurements coming from the same place.)
12:34:05 <lambdabot> EGSC 071220Z 19007KT 9999 FEW040 BKN057CB 12/02 Q1014
12:35:39 <Taneb> Not too warm here either :(
12:59:20 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61783&oldid=61775 * A * (-1620) Thanks for the comments, I undo my edits of Bool Row.
13:00:03 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61784&oldid=61783 * A * (-520) And delete Bool Row.
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13:09:35 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61785&oldid=61784 * A * (+283) Eliminate some computational models (as it is not clear whether it is Turing-complete)
13:11:22 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61786&oldid=61295 * A * (+35) Even though it is unclear whether bitch is Turing-complete, it is clear that it is at least a finite-state automata.
13:12:41 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61787&oldid=61785 * A * (+2) /* What bitch surpasses */
13:15:44 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61788&oldid=61787 * A * (+106) /* What bitch surpasses */
13:21:46 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61789&oldid=61788 * A * (+11)
13:24:18 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61790&oldid=61789 * A * (+67) Add a subtitle(I can't find where it is)
13:27:04 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61791&oldid=61790 * A * (+227) /* Attempts on proving that bitch is a Push down automaton */
13:42:48 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61792&oldid=61791 * A * (+544) /* Attempts on proving that bitch is a Push-down automaton */
13:43:13 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61793&oldid=61792 * A * (+15) /* What bitch surpasses */
13:44:42 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61794&oldid=61793 * A * (+90) /* What bitch surpasses */
13:48:20 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61795&oldid=61794 * A * (+299) /* Proof that the Halting problem is trivial in bitch */
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13:50:06 <esowiki> [[Bucket]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61796&oldid=60518 * A * (-2) Reduce the complexity of Bucket
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13:56:48 <esowiki> [[Bucket]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61797&oldid=61796 * A * (-25)
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14:05:05 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61798&oldid=61795 * A * (+0) /* Proof that bitch is a finite state automaton */
14:25:17 <esowiki> [[EXCON]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61799&oldid=49643 * A * (+2813) /* Hello, World! */
14:25:38 <esowiki> [[EXCON]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61800&oldid=61799 * A * (-39) It is usable for computing
14:26:50 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61801&oldid=61798 * A * (-24) /* Proof that bitch is a finite state automaton */
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14:27:35 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61802&oldid=61801 * A * (+74) /* Proof that bitch is a finite state automaton */
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14:30:13 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61803&oldid=61802 * A * (-83) /* Trivial proofs */
14:31:56 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61804&oldid=61803 * A * (+91) /* Proof that bitch is a finite state automaton */
14:39:33 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61805&oldid=61804 * A * (+809) We are going too far for proving the TC-ness of bitch.
14:41:27 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61806&oldid=61805 * A * (+10) minor edit
14:41:59 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61807&oldid=61786 * A * (-35) Undo revision of A
14:42:33 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61808&oldid=61806 * A * (+10) /* Attempts on proving that bitch is a Push-down automaton */
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14:46:53 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61809&oldid=61808 * A * (+33) /* What bitch surpasses */
14:47:15 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61810&oldid=61809 * A * (-849) Already irrelevant to proving TC-ness
14:55:38 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61811&oldid=61810 * A * (-446) /* [Ongoing] Equivalency between bitch and Home Row by User:Helen and User:A */
14:58:12 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61812&oldid=61811 * A * (+12) /* Proof that bitch is a finite state automaton */
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18:30:15 <orin> looks like I successfully lit a fircracker under someone's butt at firefox
18:31:11 <orin> and convinced them that no, having addons just suddenly stop working on un-updated computers, isn't valid behaviour
18:32:33 <kmc> mozilla has stopped giving a shit about their users
18:32:39 <kmc> or about open source
18:34:00 <orin> A related issue is the potential censorship of add-ons; Mozilla Foundations could be legally or culturally inhibited from signing otherwise fine add-ons
18:34:17 <orin> Due to its location in California, USA
18:34:55 <orin> But I'm unaware of any extant examples of this problem
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20:05:14 <pikhq> orin: I think even just "it stops working by accident" is a pretty valid complaint, and one that came up recently, so. :)
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20:21:43 <orin> pikhq: the current date for the next addon mageddon is in 2025
20:47:06 <kmc> re previous conversation, my wife reminded me of another way to choose an anniversary gift
20:47:42 <kmc> which is, think of a situation that caused relationship friction in the past year, and buy an item to prevent that
20:47:53 <kmc> and that's how I got an extension cord for my anniversary
20:49:44 <b_jonas> kmc: nice. I am wary of that particular one, and have got extra extension cords and cables
20:49:51 <b_jonas> but yeah, in general that should work well
20:50:01 <b_jonas> I want a new electric toothbrush though
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20:52:32 <orin> one can never have too many spare extension cables and phone chargers
20:53:35 <b_jonas> especially since they break compatibility every five yeras
20:54:01 <b_jonas> not for the extension cords, luckily
20:54:18 <b_jonas> those just have their cables broken or the surge protector broken
21:01:22 <kmc> I'm still using micro usb
21:01:53 <kmc> the issue before is that we had some short cords. and a huge (50 foot) heavy duty cord that was thick and unwieldy
21:02:00 <kmc> and nothing in between
21:02:08 <b_jonas> kmc: yeah, there's that too
21:02:19 <b_jonas> nothing between 0.3 m and 2 m
21:02:40 <b_jonas> but I can deal with the 2m cables using cable ties
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21:14:39 <fizzie> I feel appreciated: Brexit Party sent me a personal letter about how they're saving democracy.
21:14:59 <fizzie> "However you voted in 2016, we all care about democracy --"
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21:20:08 <rdococ> how do you save democracy by removing accountability from the government?
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22:01:59 <FireFly> kmc: hm, that's not a bad gift idea
22:02:35 <kmc> she went to the hardware store and browsed until something jogged her memory of a conflict
22:04:10 <FireFly> I should remember that one for later
22:04:29 <FireFly> I mean, the 'something to prevent some recent friction' scheme idea, not specifically extension cord :p
22:07:51 <rain1> how would you implement a language based on a list of sentences and the semantics is order independent?
22:08:08 <kmc> needs more detail. what form do the sentences have?
22:08:17 <kmc> unification is one way. a logic language like prolog
22:08:31 <rain1> im thinking like a generalized baba is you
22:08:39 <j4cbo> or Lingua::Romana::Perligata
22:08:42 <b_jonas> rain1: you can make each sentence a top-level function definition
22:08:50 <kmc> the sentences represent logical facts and the interpter derives more facts from them
22:08:53 <b_jonas> or, like, a definition for a top level function or variable
22:09:04 <kmc> j4cbo: how is that order independent?
22:09:17 <kmc> seems like this falls under the general umbrella declarative programming
22:09:33 <j4cbo> syntactical order independent
22:09:49 <kmc> though you could also have an imperative language which works this way, if you have some rule for which sentence 'executes' first, such as the shortest one, or most specific according to some metric
22:10:11 <b_jonas> or you can use statements, with a line label and explicitly writing the labels of next states
22:10:34 <shachaf> Baba Is You seems to have a pretty clear evaluation order, at least.
22:10:35 <kmc> old basics are like that... you can enter the lines in any order
22:10:39 <kmc> shachaf: how's it defined?
22:10:54 <shachaf> I mean, it's kind of complicated, but it seems like it exists.
22:10:58 <kmc> did anyone write an AI to play BiY yet?
22:11:06 <kmc> seems like it might discover some really interesting weird solutions
22:11:13 <rain1> by order doesn't matter i mean that you can shuffle the list of sentences and it has the same semantics
22:11:27 <kmc> yeah, I got that
22:11:37 <b_jonas> or like one of those string replacement languages, one of those that are nondeterministic in which replacement rule is ran, so you have to chain them by states
22:16:31 <rain1> the AND and OR operators in first order logic are order-independent
22:16:40 <rain1> so a logic solver might be a way to do it
22:17:57 <rain1> but maybe formal logic is too strict
22:19:41 <kmc> yes, if your program is a list of logical equations then it's order independent
22:19:46 <kmc> and can be 'executed' with a SAT solver or something
22:19:50 <kmc> but that also has limited power
22:19:59 <kmc> especially if you don't include NOT (then you only have monotonic circuits)
22:20:09 <kmc> monotonic circuits are an interesting complexity class
22:20:15 <rain1> how limiting is that? I mostly worry about it being 'fragile' and failing almost all th etime
22:20:18 <kmc> for low-complexity things
22:20:21 <kmc> fragilehow so
22:20:36 <rain1> well most logical formula are unsatisfiable
22:20:37 <kmc> for basic boolean SAT, if there is a solution a SAT solver will eventually find it, or say there isn't one
22:20:45 <kmc> it will never give up. never surrender.
22:20:52 <kmc> (unless you put a time bound on it of course)
22:20:56 <rain1> but you probably want some characters to move even if one of the others is up against a wall (or inside a wall) and cant move
22:21:07 <kmc> also if it's unsatisfiable it can find an 'unsat core' of equations that make it unsatisfiable
22:21:18 <rain1> wow the unsat core sounds perfect
22:21:56 <kmc> there are lots of sat solvers, and competitions and such
22:22:00 <kmc> but minisat is a good place to start
22:22:06 <kmc> also if yo uhaven't seen it
22:22:11 <kmc> you should really check out http://alloy.lcs.mit.edu/alloy/index.html
22:22:13 <rain1> i have implemented a sat solver before
22:22:31 <kmc> alloy is SAT based but adds a rich relational algebra on top of it
22:23:37 <rain1> /* Defines what eats what and the farmer is not around. */
22:23:39 <rain1> fact { eats = Fox->Chicken + Chicken->Grain}
22:24:00 <kmc> classic logic puzzle :)
22:29:16 <shachaf> I want to write one so I understand all the fancy algorithms they use.
22:29:41 <shachaf> Like CDCL and 2-watched-literal.
22:29:43 <kmc> but so many projects
22:31:06 <shachaf> Do you like dancing links?
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22:31:18 <kmc> i think so
22:31:21 <kmc> but I forgot how it works
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23:18:14 <rain1> its just depth first search, but implemented really efficiently i think
23:18:46 <rain1> for the specific problem of exact cover, cause of the double linked lists
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23:36:28 <oerjan> <int-e> https://www.bergfex.com/tirol/wetter/stationen/innsbruck-flughafen/ looks like somebody fixed an HTML injection problem. :-) <-- i don't get it.
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23:43:32 <oerjan> <kmc> mozilla has stopped giving a shit about their users <-- you know, i occasionally try to consider which browser i'll eventually switch to when i have to give up IE completely, and the main impression i seem to get about the major contenders is "they're all evil".
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23:45:35 <kmc> i'm giving up on the internet
23:45:38 <kmc> ham radio for life
23:46:48 <fizzie> `` thanks Thunderbird # this was sort of anticlimactic
23:46:48 <HackEso> Thanks, Thunderbird. Thunderbird.
23:46:59 <shachaf> how is the web such a terrible platform imo
23:47:18 <oerjan> shachaf: because commercial companies were allowed to use it hth
23:47:21 <kmc> same reason humans are so terrible
23:47:24 <kmc> it evolved, it was not designed
23:47:41 <shachaf> and humans are way up there
23:47:49 <shachaf> not above cats obviously, but p. high
23:48:47 * kmc is a mammal
23:49:17 <shachaf> i particularly like the feature of mammals where they're conscious entities with brains and personalities and things
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23:50:21 <oerjan> i think we depressed her
23:50:27 <shachaf> oh, probably took it as a guilt-trip-for-eating-meat thing
23:50:34 <shachaf> which i wasn't even thinking of
23:51:00 <oerjan> that sounds like leaping to conclusions unless she's done that before
23:51:19 <shachaf> we have had interactions like that in the past
23:51:21 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61813&oldid=61812 * Salpynx * (+3412) Conjecture that bitch is NOT TC, and a specific, simpler, bit copy challenge
23:52:18 <oerjan> i wonder if they'll converge to some actual answer on Bitch's computational class. i'm avoiding getting involved.
23:52:30 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61814&oldid=61813 * Salpynx * (+0) /* Not TC Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */ crucial typo fix!
23:53:10 <shachaf> anyway what i said goes for s/mammals/humans/ too
23:53:13 <oerjan> although it's a bit shame no one told them about ais523's idea.
23:53:29 <shachaf> i'm just marveling at the universe being so odd
23:55:04 <oerjan> it seems to me that the logical end point of vegetarianism is that we have to get our brains uploaded to computers so we can stop hurting living beings simply by existing.
23:55:18 <oerjan> including, in the extreme, our own body cells.
23:55:35 <shachaf> not hurting living beings simply by existing sounds p. good to me
23:55:59 <shachaf> but i don't care about hurting my own body cells very much
23:56:12 <oerjan> well the question is whether _they_ care.
23:56:41 <oerjan> it's a pretty despotic regime.
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23:58:42 <oerjan> it might eventually turn out elementary particles are conscious, in which case the ethics are pretty screwed.
23:58:50 <shachaf> Reminds me of Smullyan: «I must tell you that on another occasion, my mother wanted me to do something which I didn't want to do. When I told her that I wouldn't do it, and she told me that I was being selfish, I said, "Mother, whose sake do you want me to be unselfish?"»
23:59:53 <salpynx> poking my head in here to ask for feedback on whether I have made any obvious mistakes with my attempt on talk:bitch to settle the endless TC quest
00:01:02 <oerjan> salpynx: i just said above that i way avoiding getting involved :P
00:01:26 <oerjan> although ais523 had an idea that maybe it might work to simulate a 1d CA
00:02:46 <oerjan> that talk page is a mess
00:02:49 <salpynx> it doesn't feel like a bad language, but the debate is tiring. It shouldn't be that hard to put an end to, but I feel my ability to judge (or think straight) has been affected by trying to follow it
00:03:26 <salpynx> TuxCrafting had the most coherent arguments, but they are now struck through
00:04:44 <salpynx> I don't think the language can copy a single bit from one mem location to another, without destroying stored data, and that prevents any tc mechanism.
00:06:20 <salpynx> I tried to set out my thoughts in a way that any errors should be easy to spot
00:08:52 <esowiki> [[EXCON]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61815&oldid=61800 * Oerjan * (+39) Undo revision 61800 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]]) (Usable for programming is a higher bar than just outputting fixed strings.)
00:10:08 <rdococ> TIL 'cat' is usable for programming
00:11:05 <oerjan> rdococ: um i'm saying the opposite
00:13:01 <rdococ> are there any programming languages that can detect sarcasm?
00:14:39 <salpynx> I got it, but I'm not a programming language.
00:14:58 <oerjan> i also got the sarcasm, but the target was ambiguous.
00:15:30 <salpynx> I suppose I'm occasionally usable for programming though
00:16:45 <salpynx> heh, in fact that's what I should be doing now, rather than worrying about bitch
00:18:59 <oerjan> salpynx: i don't think your argument holds, because you're assuming that to be TC, Bitch has to be able to do a _specific_ calculation on the accumulator.
00:19:28 <rdococ> interesting language name
00:20:25 <oerjan> for example, iirc it is a known theorem that a 2-register minsky machine cannot compute the square of one of its registers.
00:21:17 <oerjan> but this doesn't matter, because the TC proof uses a data encoding that never requires doing that.
00:21:36 <salpynx> oerjan: I didn't go into that detail, but I believe the copy is a stand in for _any_ operation which takes two operands (of any size) from memory and performs an operation without destroying other parts of the memory. An OR or AND would work equally to disprove what I claim
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00:35:08 <salpynx> In the argument, 'copy' was not meant to be a special operation, just a specific instance to represent the generic case of an operation with 2 operands. I think my argument applies to any operation that actually uses two bits from memory. Operations taking one bit from memory and the other from user input or code are fine, and all the other code examples I can follow only do that, which is what a PDA can do.
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00:49:09 <oerjan> i cannot get from the spec how chaining in Bitch is actually supposed to work. and my brain refuses to try to read the implementation.
00:51:07 <oerjan> although the only _useful_ interpretation is that op1 op2 number will calculate acc op1 (acc op2 number) where acc is the original value in both cases, and then only store the final result.
00:51:28 <salpynx> oerjan: thanks for getting your hands this dirty anyway -- I feel like I can't get much further and was hoping A or some other expert in the language would take on the challenge and prove me wrong.
00:52:36 <salpynx> oerjan: Just knowing I haven't made any blindingly obvious errors is helpful
00:53:10 <oerjan> i don't understand Bitch either, is what i'm saying.
00:54:40 <oerjan> the spec is not stating some important assumptions, so i might be guessing wrong and that puts me off thinking more about it.
00:56:24 <salpynx> fair enough, I think my challenge is clear enough though. If someone invested in proving TC can show me an algorithm that can copy a bit, I'll understand it enough to help with that. If they can't, I'm calling it a PDA
00:57:47 <salpynx> My getting invested in proving not-TC was probably a mistake, so I appreciate you not wanting to get in further
01:04:17 <esowiki> [[99 bottles of beer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61816&oldid=56544 * A * (+159) Add specification, as usability is more than printing a message.
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03:51:11 <sombrero> Pardon the interruption, but probably in the near future will be necessary a eso-AI (esoteric artifitial intelligence) to counteract the immense productivity of a typical AI, or also, to counteract AIs whose primary purpose is self-preservation rather exploration, What is your take on this?
03:53:21 <shachaf> I don't know what those words mean.
03:54:48 <kmc> culture jamming artificial superintelligence with postmodernism? i like the way you think
03:56:12 <Hooloovo0> fungot, how do you feel about culture jamming artificial superintelligence with postmodernism?
03:56:13 <fungot> Hooloovo0: your professor wants the representation of a macro could do that if you need anything done, you have
04:18:09 <sombrero> what a direction has taken the incursion, a dada esoteric superintelligence LOL
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06:01:13 <kmc> fungot: when the going gets weird, the weird turn what?
06:01:13 <fungot> kmc: that was an actual command), is a " hyphen-minus"
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10:38:38 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61817&oldid=61814 * A * (-11) This can be used as an argument against TC-ness. Remove the deletion line
10:39:16 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61818&oldid=61817 * A * (-42) /* Bitch might be Turing-incomplete */
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10:44:21 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61819&oldid=61818 * A * (+229) Closed challenge (already done by Helen)
10:47:26 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61820&oldid=61819 * A * (+18) grm
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10:51:03 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61821&oldid=61820 * A * (+228) Add description
11:03:58 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61822&oldid=61821 * A * (+119) /* Not TC Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */
11:04:06 <esowiki> [[RarVM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61823&oldid=61603 * Void * (+5) /* Jumping processes */
11:08:48 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61824&oldid=61822 * A * (+205) /* Not TC Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */
11:14:37 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61825&oldid=61824 * A * (+459) Extend my counter-arguement
11:16:21 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61826&oldid=61825 * A * (+162) /* Not TC Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */
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11:18:15 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61827&oldid=61826 * A * (-47) /* Not TC Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */
11:23:16 <esowiki> [[RarVM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61828&oldid=61823 * Void * (+230) /* Evolving programs */
11:23:54 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61829&oldid=61827 * A * (+116) /* Not TC Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */
11:29:02 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61830&oldid=61829 * A * (+152) /* Not TC Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */
11:30:43 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61831&oldid=61830 * A * (+0) /* Not TC Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */
11:31:45 <esowiki> [[RarVM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61832&oldid=61828 * Void * (+128) /* Implementations */
11:37:18 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61833&oldid=61831 * A * (+126) grm, and mixed up two conjectures
11:47:37 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61834&oldid=61833 * A * (+16) Make my argument harder to read
11:48:32 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61835&oldid=61834 * A * (-7) /* Counter-arguments */
11:54:41 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61836&oldid=61835 * A * (+74) /* What bitch surpasses */
11:56:42 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61837&oldid=61836 * A * (-12) /* Counter-arguments */
12:04:08 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61838&oldid=61837 * A * (+114) /* Counter-arguments */
12:09:11 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61839&oldid=61838 * Salpynx * (+1291) /* Not TC Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */ 3rd attempt to save, but page keeps changing
12:25:02 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61840&oldid=61839 * A * (+8) /* Counter-arguments */
12:38:16 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61841&oldid=61840 * A * (-1887)
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13:11:10 <esowiki> [[User talk:Oerjan]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61842&oldid=58702 * A * (+359) Ask a question that is quite hard to determine
13:25:00 <esowiki> [[User talk:Oerjan]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61843&oldid=61842 * A * (+30) Tell where it is
13:34:29 <esowiki> [[Oneline]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61844&oldid=61517 * A * (+0) grm
13:36:19 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61845&oldid=61807 * Int-e * (+20) implementation: fix a bug (probably due to simplification of the github version).
13:37:21 <int-e> the sad thing is I'm just looking at the code because the specification is so imprecise.
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15:15:08 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61846&oldid=61845 * Int-e * (+370) add rot13 program
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17:19:29 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Alvarito056 * New user account
17:33:23 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61847&oldid=61709 * Alvarito056 * (+155)
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23:21:40 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61849&oldid=61841 * Salpynx * (+0) /* Not TC Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */ fix another important typo, oops.
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00:16:52 <kmc> https://reason.com/2019/05/08/denver-just-became-the-first-u-s-city-to-decriminalize-psychedelic-mushrooms
00:16:57 <kmc> fungot: what do you think of that?
00:16:58 <fungot> kmc: wtf are you doing programming?? :p) defining an api for graphics interfaces to c libraries ( yet)
00:31:13 <esowiki> [[User talk:Oerjan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61850&oldid=61843 * Oerjan * (+1099) /* Turing completeness */ Answer
00:34:39 <shachaf> https://i.imgur.com/6wj8FB9.png
00:35:43 <shachaf> fungot: you're being replaced by robots
00:35:43 <fungot> shachaf: is there on your cf if i may ask
00:43:54 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Odog8 * New user account
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02:30:44 <salpynx> A's qn re human involvement has given me an idea for an appropriately joke TC variant of bitch: the User MUST act as an unbounded stack for the program. Output is PUSH, Input is POP. bitch handles one stack, and bitwise operations, the user is the other stack.
02:33:18 <salpynx> now I'm wondering if the entire language was a setup for this joke. bitch is TC when bitch is you.
02:34:27 <ais523> hmm, that's the same computational class as Wiki Cyclic Tag I think
02:34:47 <ais523> (TC if a human repeatedly gives enters the program's output back as input to the program, not otherwise)
02:35:22 <ais523> Wiki Cyclic Tag's main issue is the lack of any sort of loop, so the human output→input copying is needed both to introduce a loop, and to retain state between loop iterations
03:09:22 <salpynx> interesting, I had heard of WIki Cyclic Tag but didn't realise it used that trick. I was thinking of the css + html "Turing completeness proof" that required user input to transition states, which I thought was controversial, but seems slightly different
03:10:43 <salpynx> hmm, maybe that is an equivalent trick, but more indirect
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04:02:39 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61851&oldid=61849 * A * (+293) /* Not TC Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */
04:03:06 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61852&oldid=61851 * A * (-26) /* Not TC Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */
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04:46:03 <shachaf> NetHack is deprecating OS/2?!
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05:43:03 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61853&oldid=61852 * Int-e * (+1067) /* Not TC Conjecture [...] */ a solution
05:51:08 <oerjan> int-e: ok so chained instructions do _not_ modify the accumulator? that was the main thing i was confused about.
05:51:29 <int-e> according to the Java interpreter, yes, they don't.
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10:53:03 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61854&oldid=61853 * A * (+218) /* Not TC Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */
10:54:09 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61855&oldid=61854 * A * (+38) /* Not TC Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */
10:55:17 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61856&oldid=61855 * A * (+66) /* Not TC Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */
10:55:56 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61857&oldid=61856 * A * (+5) /* Not TC Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */
11:00:03 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61858&oldid=61857 * A * (-521) /* What bitch surpasses */
11:00:15 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61859&oldid=61858 * A * (-452) /* Proof that bitch is a non-looping finite state automaton */
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11:07:37 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61860&oldid=61859 * A * (-228) Make the talk page significantly shorter (leaving only the PDA proofs uncommented)
11:09:22 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61861&oldid=61860 * A * (-17270) *MWHAHAHA* delete the attempts of proving TC
11:09:41 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61862&oldid=61861 * A * (-492) /* Trivial proofs */
11:10:45 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61863&oldid=61862 * A * (+4) /* Attempts at proving the computational class */
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11:15:05 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61864&oldid=61863 * A * (-372)
11:16:19 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61865&oldid=61864 * A * (-314)
11:17:03 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61866&oldid=61865 * A * (+2) /* Not TC Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */
11:18:42 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61867&oldid=61846 * A * (+548) Move the proof to the main page to delete another section in the talk page
11:19:11 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61868&oldid=61866 * A * (-637) Delete another section (it is definitely easy to follow now)
11:26:17 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61869&oldid=61868 * A * (-47) /* Some thoughts */
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11:32:48 <esowiki> [[Back]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61870 * A * (+429) Created page with "[[Back]] is a [[Fungeoid]] that can reflect back to the program when the program counter went out of bounds. ==Syntax== {| class="wikitable" border="1" |- | \ | Reflect the di..."
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11:37:18 <esowiki> [[Back]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61871&oldid=61870 * A * (+589)
11:38:56 <esowiki> [[Back]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61872&oldid=61871 * A * (+224) /* Syntax */
11:40:10 <esowiki> [[Back]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61873&oldid=61872 * A * (+85) /* Reflection */
11:44:02 <esowiki> [[Back]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61874&oldid=61873 * A * (+251)
11:44:26 <esowiki> [[Back]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61875&oldid=61874 * A * (-1) grm
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11:57:49 <wob_jonas> ais523: you may have seen this article already: https://arxiv.org/abs/1904.09828 Alex Churchill, Stella Biderman, Austin Herrick "Magic: The Gathering is Turing Complete"
12:00:48 <esowiki> [[Talk:StackFlow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61876&oldid=54283 * B jonas * (+139)
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12:35:11 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61877&oldid=61848 * Odog8 * (+217)
12:36:56 <esowiki> [[User talk:Odog8]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61878 * Odog8 * (+94) Created page with "Hey, I'm a dude learning Befunge & ><>. I'm working on a variety of dead community projects..."
12:47:03 <esowiki> [[Turing Machine But Way Worse]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61879 * RealUndefined * (+455) Created page with "'''Turing Machine But Way Worse''' is a programming language made by a code golf user [https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/users/83048/milkyway90 MilkyWay90]. It is based on Tu..."
12:47:22 <esowiki> [[Turing Machine But Way Worse]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61880&oldid=61879 * RealUndefined * (+1)
12:48:32 <esowiki> [[Turing Machine But Way Worse]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61881&oldid=61880 * RealUndefined * (+0)
12:48:41 <esowiki> [[Turing Machine But Way Worse]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61882&oldid=61881 * RealUndefined * (-5)
12:49:12 <esowiki> [[Turing Machine But Way Worse]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61883&oldid=61882 * RealUndefined * (+1) there
12:50:19 <esowiki> [[Turing Machine But Way Worse]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61884&oldid=61883 * RealUndefined * (+54) add more categories
12:52:27 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61885&oldid=61584 * RealUndefined * (+35) /* T */ add TMBWW
12:59:58 <esowiki> [[Turing Machine But Way Worse]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61886&oldid=61884 * RealUndefined * (+1727)
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13:04:55 <esowiki> [[Turing Machine But Way Worse]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61887&oldid=61886 * RealUndefined * (-29)
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13:52:35 <int-e> Sigh, A isn't very clever.
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17:07:50 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61888&oldid=61869 * Int-e * (+196)
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17:40:35 <esowiki> [[RarVM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61889&oldid=61832 * Void * (+46) /* Implementations */
17:41:59 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61890&oldid=61888 * Int-e * (+3033) Sketch: RAM
17:44:35 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61891&oldid=61890 * Int-e * (+637) Undo revision 61868 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]]) -- putting alleged proof back where it belongs
17:44:53 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61892&oldid=61867 * Int-e * (-548) Undo revision 61867 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]]) -- putting alleged proof back where it belongs
17:47:36 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61893&oldid=61891 * Int-e * (+301) /* Proof that the Halting problem is trivial in bitch */
17:54:48 <b_jonas> ais523: hehe, their construction uses *both* Rotlung Reanimator and Xathrid Necromancer
18:03:18 <b_jonas> they say they use Cleansing Beam to put +1/+1 counters, but that makes no sense, Cleansing Beam doesn't do that
18:04:54 <b_jonas> their construction spans multiple turns, a few turns per each step of the simulated machine. we figured that wasn't practical. their trick for that is Wild Evocation
18:05:00 <b_jonas> `card-by-name Wild Evocation
18:05:01 <HackEso> Wild Evocation \ 5R \ Enchantment \ At the beginning of each player's upkeep, that player reveals a card at random from their hand. If it's a land card, the player puts it onto the battlefield. Otherwise, the player casts it without paying its mana cost if able. \ M11-R
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18:07:35 <HackEso> Choke \ 2G \ Enchantment \ Islands don't untap during their controllers' untap steps. \ TE-U, 8ED-U, MPS_AKH-S \ \ Choked Estuary \ Land \ As Choked Estuary enters the battlefield, you may reveal an Island or Swamp card from your hand. If you don't, Choked Estuary enters the battlefield tapped. \ {T}: Add {U} or {B}. \ SOI-R
18:07:46 <b_jonas> ^ what the heck kind of unbalanced card is that?
18:07:56 <b_jonas> where's the cumulative upkeep?
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18:20:02 <b_jonas> the damage is replaced by Vigor, one of the incarnations from Lorwyn
19:24:22 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61894&oldid=61893 * Helen * (+1205) /* Not TC Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */ The conjecture is false
19:24:44 <kmc> bitch is you
19:24:53 <kmc> fungot is love
19:24:54 <fungot> kmc: call by name/ call by value. ( you forgot what it was
19:25:22 <kmc> love is empty, love is defeat, love is win
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19:41:30 <kmc> love is scow
19:48:40 <kmc> rain1: I am coincidentally wearing a shirt which says exactly that! https://i.imgur.com/0M29zns.jpg
19:48:53 <kmc> it is one of the gayer shirts I own
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19:53:22 <kmc> other rather gay shirts https://imgur.com/a/S3ZfJll
19:53:47 * kmc will take any excuse to post selfies, which is a bit of a departure from hating nearly every photo of her for the first ~30 years of life
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20:30:14 <b_jonas> ais523: anyway, if you haven't yet seen that article, I recommend that you take a look
20:50:25 <int-e> Oh, A had deleted a lot of things from that talk page... not limited to their own contributions. :-(
20:53:59 <b_jonas> also, it's time for a new o now.
20:56:36 <b_jonas> `ehlist http://eheroes.smackjeeves.com/comics/2789913/good-question/
20:56:37 <HackEso> ehlist http://eheroes.smackjeeves.com/comics/2789913/good-question/: b_jonas
20:56:54 <int-e> . o O ( what's the point in singleton lists )
20:58:30 <b_jonas> int-e: (1) without such a list, two people who would want a list for the same thing each wouldn't be able to guess that there's another person who wants such a list, and (2) people can grep for it in the logs or have their irc client ping them even if their nickname isn't added
20:58:48 <b_jonas> or they can, you know, just read the channel
20:59:25 <b_jonas> also lets me advertise good comics, same as larger lists
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21:10:34 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61895&oldid=61894 * Int-e * (+303) /* Not TC Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */ comment on deleted section...
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00:04:18 <esowiki> [[Turing Machine But Way Worse]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61896&oldid=61887 * Oerjan * (+5) wikify a little bit
00:05:26 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61897&oldid=61895 * Salpynx * (+589) /* Not TC Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */ Int-e completed the challenge, thank you, and well done!
00:09:32 <esowiki> [[Talk:ND]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61898&oldid=39447 * Odog8 * (+64) /* Testing... 1221121? */ new section
00:09:52 <esowiki> [[Talk:ND]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61899&oldid=61898 * Odog8 * (-64) /* Testing... 1221121? */
00:16:23 <oerjan> fizzie: as i give up trying to follow today's development on Talk:Bitch, i'd like to officially complain that mediawiki's default diff sucks supernova-sized balls hth
00:17:14 <HackEso> Your omnidryad saddle principal ideal golfing toe-obsessed "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty eldrazi grinch is a punctual expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it.
00:17:29 <shachaf> `swrjan s/Noah/mediawiki's default diff/
00:17:31 <HackEso> oerjan//Your omnidryad saddle principal ideal golfing toe-obsessed "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty eldrazi grinch is a punctual expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. His ark-nemesis is mediawiki's default diff. He twice punned without noticing it.
00:18:08 <oerjan> i think that ruins the pun hth
00:18:08 <fizzie> oerjan: Is there a better diff?
00:18:28 <fizzie> I think I've heard of WikEdDiff.
00:18:56 <oerjan> that's what i use on wikipedia (although it has problems which huge changes).
00:19:03 <HackEso> oerjan//Your omnidryad saddle principal ideal golfing toe-obsessed "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty eldrazi grinch is a punctual expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. His arkup-nemesis is mediawiki's default diff. He twice punned without noticing it.
00:19:04 <oerjan> (in my browser at least.
00:21:14 <HackEso> *:Twinkle, twinkle, little star! \ ☆:Twinkle, twinkle, little star! \ ☾_:☾_ is moon_'s lawful twin. He's banned in the IRC RFC for being an invalid character. He sometimes eats papers. \ boorjan:boorjan is oerjan's uneducated twin. \ c#:C Pound is Java's good twin. \ myname:myname is not your name. You don't know what they are doing. Or you are doing. Or am I? He is Perl's evil twin brother. \ orin:orin is oren's evil twin, stalking him from the
00:21:30 <shachaf> `learn owrjan is oerjan's wise twin.
00:21:32 <HackEso> Learned 'owrjan': owrjan is oerjan's wise twin.
00:21:41 <HackEso> 2/3:other side of the international date line. \ örjan:Örjan is the diæresed twin. He will punctuate your vöẅëls, and maybe a few other unsuspecting letters. \ ørjan:Your pal Ørjan is oerjan's good twin. He's banned in the IRC RFC for being an invalid character. Sometimes he publishes papers without noticing it. \ owrjan:owrjan is oerjan's wise twin. \ pico:pico is the useless twin of nano. \ sewerjan:sewerjan is oerjan's extremely poor twin. \ t
00:21:49 <int-e> oerjan: A's microedits are annoying. and sometimes disruptive... https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Bitch&oldid=61860 and https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Bitch&oldid=61861 stood out to me (the latter reads: *MWHAHAHA* delete the attempts of proving TC)
00:22:16 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61900&oldid=61897 * Salpynx * (+1814) /* Not TC Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */ response to Helen, with my attempt and using cell load structure
00:22:28 <HackEso> 3/3:int-e:twint-e is int-e's stupid twin. He sometimes hijacks int-e's keyboard and spouts nonsense. \ typoerjan:typoerjan is oerjan's clumsy twin. \ אrjan:אrjan is oerjan's first uncountable twin. He's inconsistent with the ZFC axioms.
00:22:35 <int-e> What I don't know, though, is whether A and Helen are communicating by other channel.
00:23:09 <shachaf> Who needs another channel when you can edit the wiki for every message?
00:23:14 <int-e> . o O ( prime twins and secondary twins )
00:23:30 <int-e> shachaf: well if you erase other people's contributions...
00:23:42 <shachaf> Is this a bug in the line breaking code, by the way?
00:23:52 <shachaf> Line 2 ended in t and line 3 started with i
00:23:55 <HackEso> twint-e is int-e's stupid twin. He sometimes hijacks int-e's keyboard and spouts nonsense.
00:24:28 <shachaf> Aha, the line was cut off.
00:24:36 <shachaf> Did a hostname change or something?
00:24:47 <HackEso> cat: bin/spout: No such file or directory
00:24:53 <HackEso> cat "${2:-/dev/stdin}" >tmp/spout.raw; distort tmp/spout.raw | spore "${1-1}"
00:24:59 <HackEso> #!/usr/bin/env python \ import sys \ N = 460 \ name = sys.argv[1] if len(sys.argv) > 1 else "/dev/stdin" \ with open(name, "r") as f: \ data = ' \\ '.join(f.read().splitlines()) \ s = len(data) \ mw = len(str(2*s/N))-1 \ mw += s > ((N-2)*9-18*mw+1)*((10**mw-1)/9)-mw \ p=0 \ i=1 \ while (p<s): \ lw = N-mw-2-len(`i`) \ print data[p:p+lw] \ i+=1 \ p+=lw
00:25:39 <shachaf> `1 for i in {1..100}; do echo -n 01234566789; done
00:25:40 <HackEso> 1/3:01234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123
00:25:43 <HackEso> 2/3:56678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667
00:26:09 <shachaf> `sled bin/distort//s/460/459/
00:26:11 <HackEso> bin/distort//#!/usr/bin/env python \ import sys \ N = 459 \ name = sys.argv[1] if len(sys.argv) > 1 else "/dev/stdin" \ with open(name, "r") as f: \ data = ' \\ '.join(f.read().splitlines()) \ s = len(data) \ mw = len(str(2*s/N))-1 \ mw += s > ((N-2)*9-18*mw+1)*((10**mw-1)/9)-mw \ p=0 \ i=1 \ while (p<s): \ lw = N-mw-2-len(`i`) \ print data[p:p+lw] \ i+=1 \ p+=lw
00:26:17 <shachaf> `1 for i in {1..100}; do echo -n 0123456789; done
00:26:18 <HackEso> 1/3:01234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234
00:26:21 <HackEso> 2/3:56789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789
00:27:21 <HackEso> 11817:2019-05-10 <shachäf> sled bin/distort//s/460/459/ \ 11510:2018-04-14 <fizzïe> sled bin/distort//s/N = 350/N = 460/ \ 10972:2017-05-29 <oerjän> sled bin/distort//8s,int,str, \ 10971:2017-05-29 <oerjän> revert \ 10970:2017-05-29 <oerjän> sled bin/distort//s,int,str, \ 10969:2017-05-29 <oerjän> sled bin/distort//2s:, math::;8cmw = len(int(2*s/N))-1 \ 10968:2017-05-29 <oerjän> fetch bin/distort https://hackego.esolangs.org/get/bin/distort
00:29:15 <HackEso> Shaventions include: before/now/lastfiles, culprits, hog/{h,d}oag, le//rn, tmp/, mk/mkx, {s,p}led/sedlast, spore/spam/speek/sport/1/4/5, edit. Taneb did not invent them yet.
00:29:25 <shachaf> edit sure was a great shavention
00:31:37 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/log/tip/bin/distort
00:32:38 <fizzie> HackEso's own threshold is supposed to be strict enough to not change unpredictably.
00:32:50 <int-e> Yeah but I know what changed.
00:33:14 <int-e> It used to identify as user "h": :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi now it's :HackEso!~HackEso@techne.zem.fi
00:33:41 <int-e> And that happens to push it one character over the 512 byte limit for PRIVMSG.
00:34:05 <fizzie> I thought it had a larger margin of safety than that.
00:34:11 <fizzie> But maybe it's been optomilized.
00:34:40 <int-e> April 14th, 2018: <fizzie> sled bin/distort//s/N = 350/N = 460/
00:35:41 <fizzie> I think I'll try to shorten it back down again though.
00:35:57 <shachaf> I think it's good for N to match HackEso's bound exactly.
00:36:33 <shachaf> Hmm, except it also adds a header.
00:36:43 <int-e> I'm not complaining, I find it satisfying to know what changed :)
00:37:11 <fizzie> HackEso's bound is kind of complex, because it's "460 rounded down to the previous full Unicode codepoint if the text decodes as valid UTF-8; otherwise 460".
00:37:52 <int-e> just put 444 there :)
00:38:05 <fizzie> I wonder where the ~h came from.
00:38:15 <fizzie> The stock multibot code always just puts the nick there.
00:38:24 <shachaf> Do you require the entire text to decode as valid UTF-8, or do you just step back up to 3 continuation bytes from the end?
00:38:38 <fizzie> No, the entire text needs to be valid UTF-8 for that rule to trigger.
00:38:42 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61901&oldid=61900 * Oerjan * (+902) /* Page content deletions */ new section
00:38:53 <shachaf> Right, because some IRC clients use that funny dual encoding.
00:39:01 <int-e> fizzie: hmm did you ever use any irc proxy for hackeso?
00:39:21 <fizzie> https://bitbucket.org/fizzie/hackbot/src/2bc6f94/multibot_cmds/PRIVMSG/tr_60.cmd#lines-64
00:39:21 * int-e forgot the proper term.
00:39:31 <fizzie> Not as far as I recall.
00:39:55 <HackEso> 1/2:erkin//An erkin is a variety of cucumber: the West Indian or burr erkin (Cucumis anguria), which produces a somewhat smaller fruit than the garden cucumber (Cucumis sativus). \ copumpkin//copumpkin is categorically incapable of being president. \ ant//Ants are great architects. They are famous for their highways. \ doodad//Doodads are just duoids in the category of endofunctors. \ bottom//Bottom is where you might end up with a catamorphism,
00:39:58 <HackEso> 2/2: if not careful. There be balrogs.
00:40:02 <fizzie> Maybe I just had a patched version of multibot or something.
00:40:32 <int-e> irc bouncer was the term I forgot
00:40:59 <shachaf> Is that like a trampoline?
00:41:01 <int-e> fizzie: thanks. (I googled... resulting in a race condition)
00:41:14 <int-e> shachaf: less dangerous, I think
00:41:41 <shachaf> Race conditions on trampolines sound pretty dangerous.
00:41:55 <int-e> shachaf: it's for people who want to appear constantly online and still use their own graphical irc client from home
00:42:23 <shachaf> I appreciate that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trampoline_(computing) has an entry for Befunge.
00:42:29 <fizzie> Or just want the flexibility of switching clients every now and then, without having to change logging formats and all that.
00:42:35 <fizzie> (That's why I use bip.)
00:42:45 <fizzie> (Except the logging format is unconfigurable and kind of sucky.)
00:43:04 -!- HackEso has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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00:43:20 <shachaf> if only HackEso used a trampoline
00:43:36 <int-e> shachaf: it bounced right back!
00:44:05 <shachaf> Isn't it great how using nested functions in gcc will make your whole stack executable?
00:44:08 <fizzie> Went back to ~h. With an identd reply, it could be one character shorter.
00:44:33 <shachaf> `1 for i in {1..100}; do echo -n 0123456789; done
00:44:34 <HackEso> 1/3:01234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234
00:44:36 <HackEso> 2/3:56789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789
00:44:42 <shachaf> `` for i in {1..100}; do echo -n 0123456789; done
00:44:43 <HackEso> 0123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789
00:44:49 <shachaf> `2 for i in {1..100}; do echo -n 0123456789; done
00:44:50 <HackEso> 2/3:56789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789
00:45:20 <shachaf> I'd test this in /msg but everything would be different there.
00:45:40 <int-e> just /nick _esoteric ;-)
00:46:59 <int-e> "Ice_Store" is a good one.
00:47:04 <int-e> https://new.wordsmith.org/anagram/anagram.cgi?anagram=esoteric&t=500&a=n
00:47:49 <oerjan> <shachaf> Does distort handle that? <-- that's the whole point of the fancy math
00:48:12 <shachaf> oerjan: ok but i didn't actually read the code hth
00:48:16 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/file/tip/bin/distort
00:51:00 <int-e> . o O ( Is HackEso secretly a drug dealer? It rearranges to: Has Coke )
00:52:48 <oerjan> shachaf: pretty sure you were around when i made it hth
00:53:28 <oerjan> unfortunately the fancy math doesn't work if it has to do unicode acrobatics as well.
00:53:57 <oerjan> (and i don't know how to.)
00:55:23 <shachaf> oerjan: Oh, my question was whether distort does unicode acrobatics.
00:55:31 <shachaf> What does the fancy math do?
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00:57:54 <salpynx> int-e: well done on your solution to my challenge on that page, and the other contributions! I'm honestly surprised the solution looks so straightforward in the end, but I imagine it took quite a bit of work to get there, so thanks for taking the time to decipher the interpreter
00:58:52 <salpynx> I was trying to make progress by trying many different smaller programs through the interpreter and seeing what happend, black box style.
01:00:09 <int-e> salpynx: if you look at https://esolangs.org/wiki/Bitch#Addition you'll see that it's based on similar gymnastics
01:00:20 <int-e> (though quite a bit more elaborate)
01:01:24 <int-e> But my main starting point was the interpreter itself, observing that when instructions are chained, the entire state is copied and only the resulting accumulator is used.
01:01:56 <int-e> I guess I still spent a couple of hours getting to the point where that insight was finally useful.
01:03:33 <oerjan> shachaf: it makes sure the lines have the requested total length even though the line number prefix changes
01:03:59 <shachaf> Can you make it handle UTF-8 as well? twh
01:04:45 <salpynx> int-e: after my response to Helen, where I mentioned the addition example, it occurred to me it probably had to be using a technique like that to work at all.. I thought it was working because the user provided at least the second operand, and wanted to take that out of the equation
01:06:54 <oerjan> it's easily googleable hth
01:07:09 <salpynx> I can't get Helen's structure to work, but I suspect there is way. The challenge was an invitation for Helen to show how it worked on a simple example.
01:07:24 <shachaf> https://www.bing.com/search?q=stby
01:07:27 <int-e> oerjan: nah I got it
01:07:27 <oerjan> although i probably said because the very reverend over at schlock mercenary used it at one point.
01:07:32 <shachaf> «Meaning "Sorry to bother you"»
01:07:43 <int-e> oerjan: I started out with "sorry ..." and now I've realized my mistake.
01:08:04 <oerjan> well that _is_ one option, although not the one i was thinking of.
01:08:14 <shachaf> oerjan: it's quite all right, old chap
01:08:24 <salpynx> Anyway, my technique of saying something wrong on the internet and then waiting to be corrected has worked as intended :)
01:08:56 <oerjan> hm was there an xkcd about that
01:09:22 <oerjan> (not the "someone is wrong on the internet" one)
01:09:29 <shachaf> someone made a comic about a thing
01:09:37 <int-e> I still don't know whether that language is TC though. (I'm certaint that it's close enough to make no practical difference.)
01:09:57 <oerjan> i think shachaf is having a sarcasm leak
01:10:43 <oerjan> actually i just remember someone mentioning that technique, it probably wasn't xkcd.
01:10:43 <salpynx> I don't think I was _that_ wrong, I hypothesised a "clever solution" would involve placing bounds, thus invalidating TC, which seems to be the case.
01:10:46 <shachaf> the fact that whatshisname made a comic strip about a thing that is much older than the comic strip is not relevant to anything
01:10:55 <shachaf> oerjan: perhaps you're thinking of http://bash.org/?152037
01:11:36 <oerjan> hm i don't think i've seen that before
01:11:55 <shachaf> maybe it was a different one
01:13:31 <oerjan> i don't get the "kindred spirit" thing, did they leave out something
01:13:57 <salpynx> int-e: I will post some of my pre-disqualified solutions to the problem at some point, I implemented a lookup table version based on your ROT13 code, which I knew was possible but didn't figure out until I saw your technique.
01:14:01 <int-e> salpynx: how about ]1^^]1^^[1[1
01:14:24 <shachaf> int-e: What language should I use instead of C?
01:14:58 <int-e> shachaf: you? I imagine you'd enjoy machine code and dip switches.
01:15:12 <shachaf> Hmm, that doesn't sound that great.
01:15:18 <shachaf> To clarify, I want to use it to write software.
01:15:28 <salpynx> int-e: looks close, but seems to map 1 -> 3 ?
01:16:23 <int-e> salpynx: oh I dropped the wrong bit. ^^]1]1^^[1[1
01:17:04 <oerjan> does the storage thing also get copied when chaining, so that only an outermost bit shift has effect on it?
01:17:38 <oerjan> good, i might understand enough to think about stuff now. if i want.
01:17:46 <int-e> that's the whole point of the ^^<ins>: it executes <ins>, but discards the effect on the storage
01:17:49 <salpynx> int-e: I came up with a strange joke version that works by using the user as a stack, but may be using an interpreter input bug: \&6|]1&1/#0\&6|\/
01:18:25 <salpynx> input has to be given twice, seperated by a space, then user must input the number given by the program to get the correct answer
01:18:39 <int-e> and exploits that A^(A^A') = A'
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01:21:25 <salpynx> It made me think that any PDA with input and output could have the IO co-opted as a way to use the user as a second stack. ais523 mentioned that is how Wiki Cyclic Tag works, although the wiki page doesn't go into detail
01:24:05 <int-e> Anyway, maybe more about this tomorrow. Or maybe not, I might have exhausted the low-hanging fruits :)
01:24:18 <lambdabot> Local time for int-e is Fri May 10 03:24:17 2019
01:24:43 <int-e> later today then :P
01:24:53 <salpynx> int-e: |[3&22]4|[4&7 is a version I came up with recently and independently of your solution, which seems to work to, presumably using the same principle, although I hadn't finished reviewing it
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08:14:19 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61902&oldid=61901 * A * (+2057)
08:19:51 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61903&oldid=61902 * A * (-938) /* Proof that the Halting problem is trivial in bitch */
08:20:10 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61904&oldid=61892 * A * (-83) /* Impossible */
08:22:26 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61905&oldid=61903 * A * (+16169) YEAH! Successfully made the page longer
08:26:51 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61906&oldid=61905 * A * (-871) /* [Ongoing] Equivalency between bitch and Home Row by User:Helen and User:A */
08:27:46 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61907&oldid=61906 * A * (-328) /* Not TC Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */
09:01:33 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite).
09:19:42 <fizzie> @tell oerjan Judging from the difference in capitalization, I think most of the lines were copy-pasted, and only the "brings a tear" and "kindred spirit" ones were written by the person speaking.
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10:10:43 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61908&oldid=61907 * A * (+24) Add a trivial (but probably useful) operation
10:19:43 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61909&oldid=61908 * A * (+395) Add some operations that I find in Assembly language (not implemented, but might be possible in bitch)
10:20:16 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61910&oldid=61909 * A * (+5) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */
10:28:19 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61911&oldid=61910 * A * (+37) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */
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11:16:42 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61912&oldid=61911 * A * (-128) Delete some commands that are definitely not possible or trivial
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11:33:40 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61913&oldid=61912 * A * (+185) Explain why I removed some content
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11:34:42 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61914&oldid=61913 * A * (-30) /* Attempts at proving Turing-completeness */
11:40:20 <esowiki> [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61915&oldid=61642 * A * (-1692) Blanked the page
11:43:16 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61916&oldid=61914 * A * (-20) /* Operations */
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11:56:18 <wob_jonas> http://www.omniglot.com/blog/?p=17470 Omniglot blog writes about the obsolete ]cyrillic letter multiocular o
12:01:17 <arseniiv> one of my favorite letters with no use
12:03:53 <arseniiv> I have a bad pun «серафимы многооконные» (many-windowed instead many-eyed) which completely isn’t going out of my head when I remember that letter
12:04:21 <wob_jonas> I think that only counts as a letter for historical reasons. These days advertisments and product packaging is full of title text with some letters replaced by images, making the text ugly and often unreadable.
12:05:01 <wob_jonas> Also lack of spaces. Stupid modern designers show their total lack of respect to our typographic traditions.
12:16:04 <arseniiv> <wob_jonas> I think that only counts as a letter for historical reasons. These days advertisments and product packaging is full of title text with some letters replaced by images, making the text ugly and often unreadable. => agree
12:17:12 <arseniiv> in Unicode terms, it’s more like a “letter-like form”
12:18:12 <arseniiv> hm and how many alphabets had one time or another included an ampersand in them? I know this about English, but that’s all
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13:04:51 <arseniiv> I have concieved by any mean the weakest logic possible, of those containing implication and MP
13:05:02 <arseniiv> it has a single axiom [schema] A → A
13:06:22 <arseniiv> and it corresponds to the subset of combinatory calculus with terms containing only I and variables. Not saying “typed”, as any such term seems typable
13:08:14 <arseniiv> it’s a nice counterpart to the “trivial logic” which has an axiom A, or which has a single truth value, which in this case is perfectly interchangeable
13:09:18 <arseniiv> if I think right, classical logic is the strongest one weaker than this one
13:09:37 <arseniiv> myname: both are fairly inexpressive, I’d say totally
13:10:17 <arseniiv> they are interesting mainly as bounds, at least for me
13:10:17 <myname> how do you deduct anything with just A -> A
13:12:33 <arseniiv> hm, now I think should there be no axioms at all
13:13:21 <myname> things that are true: true
13:13:35 <myname> things that are known to nor be true:
13:14:54 <arseniiv> (cont.) if we have implication and MP, it should in some way mirror inference, as we want the deduction theorem present, at least I do, then this axiom A → A is unavoidable
13:15:32 <arseniiv> anyway this is the rationale for this logic: it’s as weak as possible
13:15:50 <arseniiv> but it has trivial deductions A ⊦ A
13:18:28 <arseniiv> hm, now I think it’s in a sense incomplete, if we are to say about deduction theorem. It’s needed that axioms S and K be true
13:19:04 <arseniiv> and without that metatheorem, the weakest logic is indeed one without any axioms at all
13:22:19 <arseniiv> though it still is fairly interesting: it corresponds to a subset of the combinator calculus with terms on variables only
13:23:27 <int-e> what exactly is MP though... you may add a linearity constraint if you want to make things less interesting
13:29:05 <arseniiv> MP is an one-sided manifestation of the deduction theorem, that wich we could state as a Hilbertian inference rule
13:29:53 <HackEso> ꙮ:ꙮ is the official Unicode character of #esoteric. \ mꙮnqy:mꙮnqy is watching you.
13:29:59 <fizzie> Wasn't there a poem or something?
13:30:14 <arseniiv> int-e: and yeah, I haven’t thought of linearity
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13:39:50 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61917&oldid=61916 * A * (+249) Ask
13:40:47 <arseniiv> int-e: hm by the way do you know what the deduction theorem would necessitate in a first-order logic? Should it have ∃? should it have even ∀? (well, if no and no, then the situation would be too dire, so I presume, with some other intuitive feelings, ∀ should live)
13:42:11 <arseniiv> at least I’m fairly set on that it could have = and the equality axioms if so needed
13:47:17 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61918&oldid=61917 * A * (-119) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */
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14:06:09 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61919&oldid=61918 * Int-e * (+288) /* Operations */
14:09:14 <int-e> arseniiv: I think it should have both to qualify as "first-order logic", but I don't know what other fragments people may have found interesting enough to study.
14:23:11 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61920&oldid=61904 * Int-e * (+815) /* Common Algorithms */ On ^^
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14:49:39 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61921&oldid=61919 * A * (+169) /* Operations */
14:50:29 <esowiki> [[*W]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61922&oldid=20457 * YamTokTpaFa * (+127) /* External resources */ Help! WTF the usage of [[Template:Wayback]] is?!
14:53:28 <esowiki> [[Excela]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61923&oldid=30479 * YamTokTpaFa * (+71) /* External resources */ So wtf the template usage is?
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15:59:35 <Taneb> Is there a term for a language which is not Turing complete itself, but if you pipe its input into an interpreter it is?
16:00:16 <int-e> so basically it just has to produce any fixed output that you desire?
16:00:45 <Taneb> int-e: I mean, an interpreter for the same language
16:01:09 <Taneb> So, I write a program in Language X, which outputs another Language X program, and so on
16:01:36 <Taneb> (also, is such a language possible?)
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16:02:59 <Cale> Such a language is called "the language of text documents"
16:03:08 <int-e> Taneb: bitch may be such a language if used in a streaming fashion (you can unroll an outer working loop in the first program, effectively giving you nesting level 2 for loops. The second program can still terminate by issuing a . instruction.)
16:03:12 <Cale> any text document simply outputs itself
16:03:44 <Taneb> Cale: not in such a way that the system so formed is Turing complete when the original language isn't
16:03:46 <int-e> Taneb: so it's a matter of a precise definition. (Also bitch may still turn out to be TC by itself. It's just unclear how.)
16:04:20 <Cale> Well, and then you can just pick your favourite Turing complete language interpreter as the second bit
16:04:24 <int-e> Taneb: Would you allow that? Using a finite program to produce an infinite (but very regular...) one?
16:04:38 <Taneb> Cale: no, it's the same interpreter
16:04:49 <int-e> Yeah the twist is that the two languages are supposed to be the same.
16:05:09 <Cale> In that case...
16:05:12 <Taneb> int-e: but also the output of the second program can be fed into a third interpreter instance
16:05:31 <int-e> Taneb: how do you deal with inputs though?
16:05:46 <Cale> I choose the language to be the lambda calculus, and I choose the interpreter to be something which performs a single beta reduction step
16:06:33 <Taneb> int-e: I haven't thought much about it
16:07:19 <Cale> Doing one beta reduction isn't Turing complete, but finding a fixed point of that is.
16:07:44 <Taneb> Cale: OK, that makes sense
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16:16:49 <int-e> . o O ( A asked a question about how my decrement implementation works. I don't want to tackle that, I'm afraid it would be like jumping into an abyss... endless follow-up questions about increasingly trivial things. I have yet to see any sign of knowledge in A... )
16:17:20 <int-e> I wonder how unfair I'm being in that assessment.
16:18:08 <int-e> arseniiv: be my guest.
16:20:20 <arseniiv> I think I may be somewhat biased about A but I embrace it with all my heart. Oh
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16:40:42 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61924&oldid=61920 * Int-e * (-6) /* The ^^ Trick */ formatting
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16:59:54 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61925&oldid=61924 * Int-e * (+140) /* Bitwise Instructions */ clarify what happens to the storage when instructions are chained
17:02:12 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61926&oldid=61925 * Int-e * (-21) /* Bitwise Instructions */ formatting
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17:15:35 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61927&oldid=61926 * Int-e * (+19) more formatting plus minor clarifications
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17:20:11 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61928&oldid=61921 * Int-e * (+167) /* Operations */ try to help to self-help.
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17:28:51 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61929&oldid=61928 * Int-e * (+329) /* Not TC Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */ note on alternative bit copying code
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19:26:41 <esowiki> [[Stackylogic]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61930 * Prof Apex * (+1197) Created page with "Stackylogic is a stack-based programming language where every line is a stack of bits. It was created by [https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/users/26997/calvins-hobbies Calvin..."
19:33:19 <int-e> Hmm, Kaspall (a webcomic) is tough to get into: After 200 pages (4 years!) things are slowly making sense...
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19:44:03 <esowiki> [[*W]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61931&oldid=61922 * Salpynx * (-87) /* External resources */ wayback machine is a web archiver, see [[Template:deadlink]] for slightly more info
19:46:48 <b_jonas> ``` set -e; cd wisdom; grep -REi cromulent .
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20:03:08 <zzo38> Today is hot in here
20:03:13 <lambdabot> CYVR 101900Z 24007KT 30SM FEW040 18/13 A2994 RMK CF1 CF TR SLP139 DENSITY ALT 400FT
20:07:32 <lambdabot> KOAK 101953Z 29010KT 10SM FEW015 FEW200 19/11 A2982 RMK AO2 SLP097 T01890106
20:08:35 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61932&oldid=61929 * Salpynx * (+48) Indenting responses and signing helps make the page easier to follow. Fixed some
20:09:29 <b_jonas> and the weather is predicted to get even warmer
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20:48:35 <zzo38> I thought of storing a Huffman tree, has been mentioned on here before. It is mentioned store how many codes of each length. Yes, you can do, with first how many 1-bit codes, how many 2-bit codes, etc until all of the codes are assigned.
20:49:55 <zzo38> You can keep track of how many codes are available, as well as how many bits are needed for the highest possible number. Subtract the number of bits used from the maximum, and then store that number, skipping any bits of that number which are implied (for example, if it can be "00" or "01" or "10" (0 to 2) then you can abbreviate "10" as just "1").
20:50:18 <zzo38> You can also add one more bit at the beginning to indicate whether the largest number of bits per code is odd or even.
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20:55:53 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, ais523 asked about Huffman trees
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21:01:12 <b_jonas> I'm traveling to the Netherlands for vacation starting tomorrow, so I won't be reachable through IRC or email until 2019-05-21.
21:02:19 <b_jonas> Also I'm reading the airplane baggage regulations. So scissors have to go to the carry-on luggage; spare batteries for my camera have to go to the hand luggage.
21:04:18 <b_jonas> And I'm required to cover the terminals of the spare camera battery with insulating tape to reduce the risk of an accidental short circuit.
21:05:01 <kmc> seems reasonable
21:05:14 <kmc> if there's a lithium battery fire they want it in the cabin so it can be contained
21:05:23 <kmc> if there's a fire in the cargo hold and it spreads then they're pretty much fucked
21:08:11 <b_jonas> I'll take some spare insulation tape to be able to keep these regulations on the way back too
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21:21:56 <kmc> normal electrical tape?
21:22:06 <b_jonas> now I'll have to cheat a bit with the hand luggage
21:23:27 <b_jonas> the size limit is 0.55 m max height, but I really want to bring my 40 l backpack, which is about 0.60 high,
21:24:00 <b_jonas> so I have to fold the top down enough on request, and pack it not too full so I can do that without having to remove more items than I can keep on my person
21:24:50 <myname> http://leftoversalad.com/c/015_programmingpeople/
21:47:37 <rain1> zzo38: you can also build a huffman tree adaptively while decoding a stream so that no huffman tree needs t obe serialized
21:52:05 <zzo38> rain1: OK, how do you build that then?
21:53:36 <rain1> start with a standard tree and each time you see a symbol update your counters and improve the tree to match the probabilities
21:55:12 <zzo38> Don't you have to rebuild the tree each time then?
21:55:36 <rain1> as long as compression and decompression uses the same algorithm you can do this
21:55:44 <rain1> it could rebuild the tree after 64 symbols
21:56:11 <rain1> it's good to reset the tree occasionally too, in case one part of the file is biased in a different way than another part
21:56:50 <b_jonas> I don't know if that aligns with whatever esoteric needs ais523 had though
21:59:24 <zzo38> Yes, there may be a different use.
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22:00:31 <zzo38> In the case of Glulx (the way the Huffman tree is stored in Glulx is rather inefficient), the text is not "streaming" and rather you give the address of the beginning of a huffed text.
22:28:15 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61933&oldid=61927 * Int-e * (+104) /* Implementation */ another implementation
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23:34:24 <esowiki> [[Talk:Uyjhmn n]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61934 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+12) Created page with "I hate this."
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00:11:46 <zzo38> Is it better for the values of the Huffman codes to be in the ordinary order or to use reversed interleaved order?
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00:26:45 <lambdabot> fizzie said 15h 7m 2s ago: Judging from the difference in capitalization, I think most of the lines were copy-pasted, and only the "brings a tear" and "kindred spirit" ones were written by the
00:30:34 <int-e> wtf was that last edit...
00:35:23 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: quot: not found
00:35:28 <HackEso> 1133) <shachaf> A Swede who was in #esoteric / Thought his rhymes were a little generic. / "I might use, in my prose, / ꙮs, / But my poetry's alphanumeric."
00:35:49 <kmc> but ꙮ is alphanumeric!
00:35:53 <kmc> it's Letter, Other or something
00:36:00 * kmc is the official sponsor of ꙮ
00:36:09 <kmc> and my wife has a shirt with two of them on it
00:36:23 <HackEso> 452) <itidus20> well, you have bested me <zzo38> itidus20: Yes.
00:36:48 <kmc> oh man, those were the days
00:39:52 <oerjan> <Taneb> (also, is such a language possible?) <-- istr CPP is one?
00:40:49 <oerjan> that is, there's a kind of TC proof for CPP where you have to iterate it on its output.
00:43:57 <shachaf> kmc: imo write your own limerick which is unicodely correct if you don't like this one
00:44:11 <kmc> limericks are hard
00:44:17 <kmc> also that's not a real limerick
00:44:26 <kmc> because it's not lewd
00:44:31 <shachaf> it's like those fancy letter glyphs they write at the beginnings of chapters
00:44:49 <shachaf> there's no requirement for limericks to be lewd
00:44:53 <kmc> I thought there was
00:45:29 <Hooloovo0> no, it's even rarer than that, apparently... it only ever occurs in one phrase?
00:45:29 <kmc> > Gershon Legman, who compiled the largest and most scholarly anthology, held that the true limerick as a folk form is always obscene, and cites similar opinions by Arnold Bennett and George Bernard Shaw,[6] describing the clean limerick as a "periodic fad and object of magazine contests, rarely rising above mediocrity". From a folkloric point of view, the form is essentially transgressive; violation of
00:45:52 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:15: error: parse error on input ‘,’
00:45:54 <kmc> taboo is part of its function.
00:46:56 <Hooloovo0> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiocular_O
00:48:40 <shachaf> gershon legman held that, and i hold the negation of that
00:48:40 <kmc> well... okay
00:48:40 <kmc> @quote limerick
00:48:40 <lambdabot> No quotes match. Maybe you made a typo?
00:48:40 <kmc> @quote kmc
00:48:40 <lambdabot> kmc says: it's great how laziness lets you ignore the order of evaluation except all the times when it doesn't
00:48:40 <kmc> i used to be a snarky little shit
00:48:40 <kmc> i still am, but I used to, too
00:48:40 <zzo38> I suppose it can still be the form of a limerick even if it is not a "true limerick"
00:48:40 <fizzie> Oh, right, it was a quote and not a wisdom.
00:48:40 <HackEso> ꙮ is the official Unicode character of #esoteric.
00:48:40 <fizzie> Yes, there were two wisdome, but I was looking for the poetry.
00:48:40 <HackEso> ꙮ:ꙮ is the official Unicode character of #esoteric. \ mꙮnqy:mꙮnqy is watching you.
00:49:10 <fizzie> Someone told me if you're using singular they, you'd also use the singular verb forms, as in "they is a journalist".
00:49:22 <fizzie> (I don't think that's necessarily how it works.)
00:49:48 <zzo38> fizzie: But "you" is also grammatically plural even if it is singular, I think, isn't it?
00:50:50 <fizzie> But I guess they were (they was?) reasoning by comparing to he/she.
00:51:16 <kmc> I definitely don't do that
00:51:22 <kmc> but I go back and forth on "themself" vs "themselves"
00:52:04 <shachaf> please phrase your answer in the form of a limerick twh
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01:02:07 <esowiki> [[Excela]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61935&oldid=61923 * Oerjan * (+4) Like this
01:03:12 <zzo38> I think it should be "themself" (like "yourself") if it is singular.
01:14:42 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61936&oldid=61932 * A * (+168) Add a subheading
01:15:24 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61937&oldid=61936 * A * (+62) Oh no, forgot to sign again
01:16:22 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61938&oldid=61933 * Oerjan * (+16) /* Bitwise Instructions */ Accumulator also discarded
01:17:55 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61939&oldid=61937 * A * (+36) Delete a useless talk
01:20:12 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61940&oldid=61939 * A * (+99) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */
01:21:29 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61941&oldid=61940 * A * (-74) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */
01:23:47 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61942&oldid=61941 * A * (+334) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */
01:24:34 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61943&oldid=61942 * Oerjan * (-2) /* Page content deletions */ Make this not a subsection
01:28:19 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61944&oldid=61943 * A * (-71) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */
01:28:41 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61945&oldid=61944 * A * (+2) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */
01:29:58 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * MadMax * New user account
01:32:21 <zzo38> Do you know how to do in SQLite to optimize a query by the assumptions that two orders are the same order without needing to add another index? I have one table ART which has AN as the alias of the rowid, but also TIME which has the same order as AN (although duplicates in TIME are possible).
01:33:43 <zzo38> The query does not have a ORDER BY clause (the order of the result doesn't matter), but it has WHERE TIME >= ?1 and it should be able to use the primary key to search even though it isn't the primary key, because the order is the same, but SQLite can't know that.
01:36:10 <int-e> oerjan: not sure about your edit to the bitch page (the effect on the accumulator influences the final result)
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01:38:05 <int-e> oerjan: it doesn't survive in the accumulator, of course.
01:38:12 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61946&oldid=61877 * MadMax * (+75) /* Introductions */
01:38:32 <esowiki> [[User:MadMax]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61947 * MadMax * (+579) (?!) Language
01:38:55 <esowiki> [[User:MadMax]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61948&oldid=61947 * MadMax * (+11)
01:39:31 <esowiki> [[User:MadMax]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61949&oldid=61948 * MadMax * (+2)
01:39:48 <esowiki> [[User:MadMax]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61950&oldid=61949 * MadMax * (+6)
01:40:13 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61951&oldid=61945 * A * (-81) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */
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01:41:03 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61952&oldid=61951 * A * (+61) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */
01:41:34 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61953&oldid=61885 * MadMax * (+11) /* Non-alphabetic */
01:42:08 <esowiki> [[(?!)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61954 * MadMax * (+590) Created page with " 3 Simple Commands: '''?''' - Increment tape '''!''' - Pop character corresponding to that ascii digit '''()''' - Loop to multiply numbers There is no way to decrement..."
01:43:22 <int-e> hmm the introduction check doesn't check whether the user signed their edit
01:43:37 <int-e> (probably hard to do)
01:43:42 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61955&oldid=61952 * A * (+62) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */
01:45:02 <zzo38> You could check for a link to their own user page, maybe
01:52:41 <oerjan> int-e: it used to check for ~~~~, but so many people couldn't manage to it right that ais523 removed the check
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02:33:47 <zzo38> Do you like my variant "bands with other" rules for Magic: the Gathering?
02:34:25 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61956&oldid=61955 * A * (+1) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */
02:40:15 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61957&oldid=61956 * A * (+65) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */
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04:07:39 <zzo38> Maybe I should implement a SUBSCRIBE and UNSUBSCRIBE command in my NNTP server?
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06:56:00 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61958&oldid=61938 * A * (+14) The Java implementation also supports bugnums.
06:59:17 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61959&oldid=61958 * A * (-14) Undo revision 61958 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]])
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07:16:53 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61960&oldid=61959 * A * (+31)
07:17:31 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61961&oldid=61960 * A * (+1) Oops
07:19:54 <b_jonas> zzo38: it's missing the rule that creatues in any one attacking band must attack the same player or planeswalker; apart from that I don't see how they differ from the new bands with other rules
07:20:30 <b_jonas> zzo38: also, https://media.wizards.com/2019/downloads/MagicCompRules%2020190503.txt is out, and the formatting is totally messed up: it uses cr as line separator, and it's utf-8 encoded again
07:30:37 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61962&oldid=61957 * A * (-27) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */
07:32:27 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61963&oldid=61962 * A * (+26) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */
07:33:55 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61964&oldid=61963 * A * (+28) Wonderful! It does not affect the storage.
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07:38:58 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61965&oldid=61964 * A * (-13) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */
08:02:03 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61966&oldid=61961 * Int-e * (+1916) /* The ^^ Trick */ -> systematic bitwise operations
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08:18:40 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61967&oldid=61966 * Int-e * (+166) /* Addition */ simplify and add subtraction as well
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08:46:21 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61968&oldid=61967 * Int-e * (+46) /* I/O Instructions */ \ and # clear the storage
08:55:49 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61969&oldid=61968 * Int-e * (+114) /* More Bitwise Operations */ consistent naming of bitwise operations
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09:04:06 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61970&oldid=61965 * A * (+8) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */
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09:09:56 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61971&oldid=61970 * Helen * (+661) /* Not TC Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */ Added working example of cell memory as a response to [[User:Salpynx|Salpynx]]
09:25:00 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61972&oldid=61971 * Helen * (+277) /* Not TC Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */ Added a solution for the sake of proving it is possible with the cell structure but also for the sake of study
09:27:02 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61973&oldid=61972 * Helen * (+140) /* Not TC Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */ Fixing bad formatting
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09:35:43 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61974&oldid=61969 * Int-e * (+44) /* Bitwise Instructions */ explicit scope for "In the above"
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09:59:03 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61975&oldid=61974 * Int-e * (+159) /* Bitwise Instructions */ effects of chained ., >, or < are also lost
10:11:54 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61976&oldid=61973 * Helen * (+1071) /* Cell-based tape */ Added bitwise operations on cells
10:17:59 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61977&oldid=61976 * Helen * (-16) /* Bitwise operations on two cells */ Fixed formatting
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10:33:20 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61978&oldid=61977 * Helen * (-4) /* Bitwise operations on two cells */ Fixed minor problem with algorithm
10:39:27 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61979&oldid=61978 * A * (+4) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */
10:42:04 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61980&oldid=61975 * A * (+22) Specify #
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11:53:27 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, I already downloaded it and I noticed that
12:00:41 <zzo38> (About creatures in a band having to attack the same player or planeswalker, that is just my mistake it is supposed to require that still)
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12:48:04 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61981&oldid=61980 * A * (+82) /* Cat program (limited to integers) */
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13:57:21 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61982&oldid=61981 * Helen * (-86) /* Cat program (limited to integers) */ No need to keep the old version
13:58:40 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61983&oldid=61982 * Helen * (+86) Undo revision 61982 by [[Special:Contributions/Helen|Helen]] ([[User talk:Helen|talk]]): We should keep the code for explanation's sake
13:59:24 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61984&oldid=61983 * Helen * (-22) /* Cat program */ Changed section title to fit with the others
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14:17:29 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61985&oldid=61979 * A * (+201) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */
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14:52:18 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61986&oldid=61985 * Int-e * (+46) /* Operations */ I think one variant of CLS is enough (personally I'd have used #|0)
14:56:23 <esowiki> [[Elevator]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61987 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+390) Created page with "'''Elevator''' is an esoteric programming language made by ~~~~ to program elevators. ==Syntax== There are to types of syntax: commands and blocks. They syntax is the followin..."
14:57:40 <esowiki> [[Elevator]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61988&oldid=61987 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (-75)
14:58:01 <esowiki> [[Elevator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61989&oldid=61988 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (-20)
14:58:30 <esowiki> [[Elevator]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61990&oldid=61989 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+1)
14:59:10 <esowiki> [[Elevator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61991&oldid=61990 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+15)
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15:40:45 <ais523> b_jonas: my initial aim for the Huffman trees was to use static Huffman trees calculated in advance, but the adaptive trees are also interesting and I'm considering using those for a differernt purpose
15:43:27 <ais523> Taneb: it's entirely possible to have a language that's sub-TC but is made TC by repeatedly-forever running its output as a program in the same language; the easiest way to construct this is to write a language that's otherwise TC but has no way to do loops, and use the rerunning as a method of looping
15:44:49 <ais523> finite chains of sub-TC languages are much more interesting; if all the intermediate outputs have to be finite the result is obviously sub-TC (you could just write the last program in the chain directly), but if you can produce infinite output and run that as a program, the whole situation becomes conceptually weird
15:48:19 <esowiki> [[Elevator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61992&oldid=61991 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+1317) /* Commands */
15:49:30 <esowiki> [[Elevator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61993&oldid=61992 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+7) /* Blocks */
15:51:35 <esowiki> [[Elevator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61994&oldid=61993 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+13) /* Syntax */
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16:02:48 <esowiki> [[Elevator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61995&oldid=61994 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+359) /* Concepts */
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16:03:35 <esowiki> [[Elevator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61996&oldid=61995 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+19)
16:16:07 <esowiki> [[Elevator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61997&oldid=61996 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+516) /* Implementation */
16:18:48 <esowiki> [[Elevator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61998&oldid=61997 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+63) /* Implementation */
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16:21:31 <zzo38> What is a "A4 SDK"?
16:21:36 <esowiki> [[Elevator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61999&oldid=61998 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+81) /* Blocks */
16:22:14 <zzo38> ais523: I mentioned now a way of storing a Huffman tree. Do you think that is good?
16:23:20 <ais523> I think the "number of entries at each length" is probably shorter, isn't it? because then you don't have to store the codes at all
16:23:58 <zzo38> You will still need to specify the values of the codes, but not the codes themself
16:26:57 <zzo38> first how many 1-bit codes, how many 2-bit codes, etc until all of the codes are assigned. You can keep track of how many codes are available, as well as how many bits are needed for the highest possible number. Subtract the number of bits used from the maximum, and then store that number, skipping any bits of that number which are implied (for example, if it can be "00" or "01" or "10" (0 to 2) then you can abbreviate "10" as just "1").
16:27:16 <zzo38> Is it understandable what I meant?
16:33:39 <esowiki> [[Elevator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62000&oldid=61999 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+211) /* Special syntaxes */
16:42:14 <ais523> <zzo38> first how many 1-bit codes, how many 2-bit codes, etc until all of the codes are assigned. ← once you have this, you can immediately calculate all the codes, you don't need any further information except that they're in canonical order
16:42:21 <ais523> and there's no reason to not put your Huffman tree in canonical order
16:49:38 <zzo38> You will need to know which values have shorter codes though, I think. Even if they are in order.
16:50:27 <ais523> yes, you need to list all the values in either case
16:51:05 <zzo38> Still if they are in order, the values can be abbreviated in a similar way to the number of codes
16:51:24 <ais523> yes; my first Huffman compressor did that
16:51:40 <ais523> but I've decided to not do that in the final version because the savings aren't that large and I'd prefer to improve access speed
16:52:30 <zzo38> However, if you do abbreviate the values, which order is better, the ordinary order or the interleaved reversed order?
16:52:47 <ais523> I tried ordinary, but I don't think it worked that well
16:52:58 <ais523> how does interleaved-reversed work? is it just alphabetical order of the strings written backwards?
16:53:27 <zzo38> No. I mean for example instead of 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 you have 1,7,2,6,3,5,4
16:53:49 <ais523> I don't see how you abbreviate that
16:54:16 <ais523> if you put the values in lexicographical order you can omit common prefixes as a form of compression
16:55:09 <zzo38> I suppose also it depend if the number of bits that makes up each value is fixed or varies, also matters; I was assuming fixed
16:59:51 <zzo38> (I have not actually tried any of the stuff I have mentioned; it is just ideas I have)
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17:16:18 <esowiki> [[Compose]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62001 * Koyodyne * (+285) Created the page with a short summary of the idea of the language
17:22:57 <esowiki> [[Compose]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62002&oldid=62001 * Koyodyne * (+242) Added sections
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17:49:00 <int-e> hmm catalan numbers
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18:17:16 <zzo38> If I implement SUBSCRIBE and UNSUBSCRIBE commands in my NNTP server, will you use that? (I would implement you can specify either a email address or another NNTP server as the target to copy the articles to.) Also is there a email header to indicate not to auto-reply to a message?
18:23:34 <int-e> apparently so. https://superuser.com/questions/481645/will-outlook-out-of-office-reply-go-to-mailing-lists
18:25:53 <zzo38> I suppose I can add all five headers.
18:27:23 <zzo38> Not only for mailing lists, but also so that it does not auto-reply to auto-replies.
18:32:22 <int-e> . o O ( and use an inactive address as from: and list-reply-to: for the real reply address. )
18:33:34 <zzo38> Since it is NNTP, you can't reply by email; if you want to reply to a message you must use NNTP.
18:33:47 <int-e> But no, no more usenet for me.
18:36:16 <zzo38> This server is not Usenet; it is Unusenet. And, no account is needed.
18:37:16 <zzo38> For downloading the articles, in addition to NNTP also gopher is supported (if you know the article number).
18:43:18 <zzo38> I think this would be better than using mailing lists and web forums and stuff, in my opinion
18:45:39 <int-e> perhaps but it's not going to happen
18:46:13 <zzo38> On my computer it does.
18:46:39 <zzo38> (Some people also like to set up multiple interfaces to the same messages, which can also be done if wanted.)
19:00:30 <zzo38> The man page for vacation(1) also says that "Precedence: bulk" will suppress replies from it. (Since not everyone will be using Outlook, this is good to have.)
19:02:44 <arseniiv> reading Egan again, Luminous and Dark integers this time
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20:31:57 <esowiki> [[ArrowFuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62003 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+781) Created page with "'''ArrowFuck''' is a programing language created by [[User:Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn]] 100% backwards compatible with [[Brainfuck]] beeing the only diference that ArrowFuck stor..."
20:50:51 <esowiki> [[Elevator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62004&oldid=62000 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+711) /* Examples */
20:52:33 <esowiki> [[Elevator]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62005&oldid=62004 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+18) /* Calculator elevator */
20:54:17 <esowiki> [[Elevator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62006&oldid=62005 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+20) /* Calculator elevator */
21:03:31 <esowiki> [[Elevator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62007&oldid=62006 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+450) /* Truth machine */
21:04:53 <esowiki> [[Elevator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62008&oldid=62007 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+1) /* Truth machine */
21:06:27 <esowiki> [[Elevator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62009&oldid=62008 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+69) /* Cat and normal elevator */
21:08:15 <esowiki> [[Elevator]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62010&oldid=62009 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+0) /* Truth elevator */
21:08:50 <esowiki> [[Elevator]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62011&oldid=62010 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+0) /* Truth elevator */
21:10:46 <esowiki> [[Elevator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62012&oldid=62011 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+17) /* Calculator elevator */
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21:26:36 <rain1> https://eprint.iacr.org/2019/459
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21:52:42 <esowiki> [[Elevator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62013&oldid=62012 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+1022) /* Cleaner */
21:53:51 <esowiki> [[Elevator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62014&oldid=62013 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+5) /* Cleaner Version */
21:56:25 <esowiki> [[Elevator]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62015&oldid=62014 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+21) /* Truth elevator */
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22:18:32 <esowiki> [[Elevator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62016&oldid=62015 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+406) /* Hello Elevator */
22:24:11 <esowiki> [[Elevator]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62017&oldid=62016 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (-8) /* Commands */
22:25:32 <esowiki> [[Elevator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62018&oldid=62017 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+4)
22:31:45 <esowiki> [[Elevator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62019&oldid=62018 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+155) /* Implementation */
22:37:18 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Unlimiter * New user account
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22:54:18 <esowiki> [[Elevator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62020&oldid=62019 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+63)
22:55:21 <esowiki> [[Elevator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62021&oldid=62020 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+1)
22:58:34 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62022&oldid=61953 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+15) /* E */
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01:30:10 <esowiki> [[User talk:Oerjan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62023&oldid=61850 * YamTokTpaFa * (+255) /* Thanks for showing me correct usage of {{Wayback}}. */ new section
01:32:21 <esowiki> [[TroJavaScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62024&oldid=60462 * YamTokTpaFa * (+34) Any specifications?
01:36:37 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokTpaFa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62025&oldid=61388 * YamTokTpaFa * (+22)
01:37:14 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox3]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62026 * YamTokTpaFa * (+534) Created page with "[[POGAACK]] {| class="wikitable" |- ! Command !! Brainfuck eqivalent |- | <code>pogack!</code> || <code>></code> |- | <code>pogaack!</code> || <code><</code> |- | Example ||..."
01:38:05 <esowiki> [[Run On Off]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62027&oldid=61583 * YamTokTpaFa * (+24)
01:39:45 <esowiki> [[Wittgen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62028&oldid=32831 * YamTokTpaFa * (+67) +CATS
01:40:05 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62029&oldid=61946 * Oerjan * (+39) unsigned
01:41:09 <esowiki> [[Image]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62030&oldid=51335 * YamTokTpaFa * (+23) +CAT
01:46:14 <esowiki> [[Talk:Calcutape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62031&oldid=47337 * YamTokTpaFa * (+41)
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01:49:02 <esowiki> [[Template:Unsigned]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62032&oldid=8639 * YamTokTpaFa * (+473)
01:50:53 <esowiki> [[Calcutape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62033&oldid=49155 * YamTokTpaFa * (+67) +CATS
01:51:34 <esowiki> [[Stare]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62034&oldid=44190 * YamTokTpaFa * (+50) +CATS
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01:57:31 <esowiki> [[BitChanger--]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62035&oldid=43012 * YamTokTpaFa * (+24) +CAT
02:00:00 <esowiki> [[Treehugger/Implementation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62036&oldid=41462 * YamTokTpaFa * (+30) +CAT (TBH why not use code tags)
02:01:14 <esowiki> [[Container]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62037&oldid=40997 * YamTokTpaFa * (+51) +CATS
02:06:08 <esowiki> [[Template:Unsigned]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62038&oldid=62032 * Oerjan * (+194) grm, mention of history and UTC correction, remove unnecessary category
02:07:28 <esowiki> [[Template:Stub]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62039&oldid=60780 * Oerjan * (-22) I don't see the need for a category corresponding to a namespace
02:08:17 <esowiki> [[Template:Distinguish/Confusion]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62040&oldid=60802 * Oerjan * (-24) Unnecessary category
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02:27:59 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62041&oldid=58698 * YamTokTpaFa * (-32057) Archiving and New Topics
02:31:21 <esowiki> [[Compose]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62042&oldid=62002 * YamTokTpaFa * (+24) +CAT (pls....)
02:33:17 <esowiki> [[Template talk:Cn]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62043 * YamTokTpaFa * (+192) /* Why does the template link to xkcd's comic Wikipedian Protester? */ new section
02:33:48 <esowiki> [[BANCStar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62044&oldid=61285 * YamTokTpaFa * (+23)
02:34:48 <esowiki> [[Category:Data Types and Structures]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62045&oldid=44853 * YamTokTpaFa * (+23) +CAT (what do you think of this categorization?)
02:38:09 <esowiki> [[Madness]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62046&oldid=20027 * YamTokTpaFa * (+24) +CAT (WTF no section divisions?!)
02:38:56 <esowiki> [[CHR]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62047&oldid=30930 * YamTokTpaFa * (+24) +CAT
02:39:34 <esowiki> [[Muddle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62048&oldid=54817 * YamTokTpaFa * (+24) /* Interpreter */ +CAT (Pls add "Category:Languages"....)
02:44:55 <esowiki> [[Hsamsniarb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62049&oldid=39396 * YamTokTpaFa * (+77) +CATS (why not SyntaxHighlight)
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02:48:58 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62050&oldid=62041 * YamTokTpaFa * (+401) /* (idea)Introducing SyntaxHighlight? */ new section
02:50:45 <esowiki> [[Fold]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62051&oldid=47063 * YamTokTpaFa * (+23) +WIP and Author Link
02:52:07 <esowiki> [[ ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62052&oldid=52844 * YamTokTpaFa * (+49) +CATS (Why one equal sign, also wtf pre-tags, not code-tags?)
02:53:48 <esowiki> [[Lisp2d]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62053&oldid=42053 * YamTokTpaFa * (+24) +CAT
02:54:23 <esowiki> [[Tautologos]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62054&oldid=46669 * YamTokTpaFa * (+65) +CATS
02:57:00 <esowiki> [[Talk:2D BF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62055&oldid=43406 * YamTokTpaFa * (+207) /* (suggestion)Shall we move the page into Category:2D BF? */ new section
02:58:01 <esowiki> [[Enigma-2D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62056&oldid=36361 * YamTokTpaFa * (+36) +CAT
02:59:23 <esowiki> [[Category:Pseudonatural]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62057&oldid=46413 * YamTokTpaFa * (+24) +CAT
03:00:50 <esowiki> [[Poison]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62058&oldid=43732 * YamTokTpaFa * (+26) Please, use Wiki syntax!
03:05:52 <esowiki> [[Point operator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62059&oldid=45584 * YamTokTpaFa * (+20) +CAT (was it good?)
03:08:26 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62060&oldid=61375 * A * (+1) /* List of candidates */
03:08:47 <esowiki> [[JUSTIF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62061&oldid=38972 * YamTokTpaFa * (+483) Help, why can't I use pre and code together?! This is DEFINITELY WEIRD!
03:09:15 <esowiki> [[Alphuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62062&oldid=58589 * YamTokTpaFa * (+22) +CAT
03:12:55 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62063&oldid=62060 * A * (-9) /* List of candidates */
03:15:25 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62064&oldid=61986 * A * (+61) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */
03:21:13 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62065&oldid=62064 * A * (+102) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */
03:22:07 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62066&oldid=62065 * A * (+0) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */
03:30:12 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62067&oldid=61984 * A * (-22) /* I/O Instructions */
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03:47:55 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62068&oldid=62067 * A * (+58) /* Possible with adjustments */
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03:59:45 * oerjan looks at YamTokTpaFa's list of edits and runs away screaming
04:00:14 <shachaf> Does the wiki have a preview button?
04:01:42 <oerjan> (that's not relevant to my screaming, though)
04:02:40 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62069&oldid=62063 * A * (+0) /* List of candidates */
04:15:59 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes; use accesskey+P (on Firefox (at least the first I have), "accesskey" is ALT+SHIFT)
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04:32:05 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62070&oldid=62066 * A * (+311) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */
04:32:31 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62071&oldid=62070 * A * (-24) /* Operations */
04:40:00 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62072&oldid=62071 * A * (+95) /* Operations */
04:41:02 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62073&oldid=62072 * A * (+125) /* Operations */
04:41:59 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62074&oldid=62073 * A * (-532) /* Operations */
05:05:13 <esowiki> [[Meander/Implementation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62075&oldid=40143 * YamTokTpaFa * (+30) +CAT
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05:12:52 <esowiki> [[Hanoiing]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62076&oldid=51749 * YamTokTpaFa * (+24) +CAT
05:13:27 <esowiki> [[Humo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62077&oldid=46481 * YamTokTpaFa * (+25) +CAT
05:39:58 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Quuxplusone * New user account
05:42:00 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62078&oldid=62029 * Quuxplusone * (+218) /* Introductions */
06:42:29 <zzo38> I played GURPS game today, and managed to defeat the shape shifter, and made a covered pit trap which helped even though they didn't fall in the pit (they noticed and tried to fly over, but the anti-magic over the pit untransformed them and they can't fly so they are now falling, but they still continued in the same direction so ended up going over the pit anyways, but we were waiting in a nearby doorway and attacked them anyways)
06:44:32 <zzo38> (And then someone following them fell into the pit, and a spell that was on them was cancelled)
06:53:28 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62079&oldid=62074 * A * (+431) Add a discovery
06:55:48 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62080&oldid=62079 * A * (+41) /* An interesting discovery */
06:57:53 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62081&oldid=62080 * A * (+82) /* An interesting discovery */
07:18:16 <zzo38> And, I think a order like 1,7,2,6,3,5,4 for the values of Huffman codes can be abbreviated because each step makes the range narrow.
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07:56:35 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62082&oldid=62068 * A * (+92) /* Common Algorithms */
07:59:30 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62083&oldid=62082 * A * (+98) /* Swapping two values */
08:03:00 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62084&oldid=62083 * A * (+59) /* Swapping two values */
08:04:01 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62085&oldid=62081 * A * (+55) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */
08:04:30 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62086&oldid=62085 * A * (-287) /* Operations */
08:21:39 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62087&oldid=62086 * A * (+148) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */
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08:29:42 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62088&oldid=62087 * A * (+128) /* Operations */
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10:00:30 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62089&oldid=62088 * Helen * (+439) /* An interesting discovery */ Nice discovery
10:00:46 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62090&oldid=62089 * A * (-418) Simplify instruction set
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10:14:25 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62091&oldid=62090 * A * (+14) It is always better to let the users choose what they want.
10:19:55 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62092&oldid=62091 * A * (-80) Not language spec
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10:30:34 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Souvik Maji * New user account
10:37:26 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62093&oldid=62078 * Souvik Maji * (+206) introducing myself
10:39:17 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62094&oldid=62093 * Souvik Maji * (+6)
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12:53:38 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62095&oldid=62084 * A * (+7) /* Swapping two values */
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14:13:29 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62096&oldid=62092 * A * (+6) grm
14:14:35 <esowiki> [[Popular problem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62097&oldid=61010 * A * (+73)
14:15:52 <esowiki> [[Looping counter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62098&oldid=60706 * A * (+149)
14:25:47 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62099&oldid=62095 * A * (+152) /* Possible */
14:37:43 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62100&oldid=62099 * A * (+21) /* Unproven */
14:38:08 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62101&oldid=62100 * A * (-21) /* Unproven */
14:41:32 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62102&oldid=62101 * A * (+197) /* Looping counter */
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14:56:14 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62103&oldid=62102 * A * (-10) /* Possible */
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17:00:19 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * JacobHodgkins * New user account
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17:09:48 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62104&oldid=62094 * JacobHodgkins * (+509) /* Introductions */
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19:02:05 <HackEso> smlist: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale
19:35:52 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62105&oldid=62103 * Int-e * (+762) /* Possible with adjustments */ explain character-base I/O only once; add Quine
19:39:41 <esowiki> [[List of quines]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62106&oldid=59680 * Int-e * (+560) add bitch quine
19:40:55 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62107&oldid=62105 * Int-e * (-486) /* Quine */ replace by link
19:47:42 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62108&oldid=62107 * Int-e * (+18) /* ROT13 */ steal formatting trick from Quine page
19:54:29 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62109&oldid=62108 * Int-e * (+15) /* Quine */ fix ugly-looking link
20:02:42 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62110&oldid=62096 * Int-e * (+286) /* An interesting discovery */ portability
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21:11:49 <esowiki> [[Compose]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62111&oldid=62042 * Koyodyne * (+549)
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22:44:44 <esowiki> [[Fractran]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62112&oldid=59798 * Quuxplusone * (+100)
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23:10:11 <esowiki> [[Box]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62113 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+899) Created page with "{{wrongtitle|title=}} '''''' is an esoteric programming language based on box placement. ==Execution== The program is just the initial state of the interpreter. That sta..."
23:10:51 <esowiki> [[Box]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62114&oldid=62113 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+2) /* Boxes */
23:13:29 <esowiki> [[Box]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62115&oldid=62114 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (-1) /* Boxes */
23:14:21 <esowiki> [[Box]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62116&oldid=62115 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (-5) /* Boxes */
23:17:20 <esowiki> [[Box]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62117&oldid=62116 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+39) /* Boxes */
23:18:09 <esowiki> [[Box]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62118&oldid=62117 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+6) /* Boxes */
23:18:48 <esowiki> [[Box]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62119&oldid=62118 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+0) /* Boxes */
23:20:31 <esowiki> [[Box]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62120&oldid=62119 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+15) /* Boxes */
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00:09:08 <zzo38> Can you connect a Raspberry Pi computer to a PC by the use of a RS-232 port?
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00:36:51 <fizzie> IIRC, it has the usual low-voltage serial port thing, one that uses 0V/3.3V logic levels.
00:37:08 <fizzie> So you would need a little bit of electronics if you wanted to convert it to RS-232.
00:37:58 <fizzie> (I've used a USB serial cable to talk to a Raspberry Pi.)
00:42:58 <fizzie> (One of those that provide 3.3V level serial pins, like https://www.adafruit.com/product/954 )
00:57:17 <kmc> or you could add a full voltage USB to RS-232 adapter to the RPi
00:59:55 <kmc> this is my rpi project today https://imgur.com/a/HqtqGJd
01:00:08 <kmc> ugly, but it will go in a box
01:00:38 <kmc> it connects to a HF radio and can be used to send/receive digital messages
01:00:53 <kmc> includes a GPS receiver for time synchronization
01:01:01 <kmc> and a little eink status display
01:02:03 <fizzie> I broke the SD card slot in my RPi. :/
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01:06:55 <fizzie> I don't quite remember what I was doing. It's probably broken in a fixable way, since it still works if I push down on the card. Just some of the plastic bits broke off.
01:08:24 <fizzie> (Haven't looked into it more since I don't actually have any specific use for the thing.)
01:39:44 <zzo38> Now I added a option into ffpng to try to optimize transparent pixels (add "t1" as a command-line argument). You may wish to use ff-transopt first, though.
01:41:52 <kmc> fizzie: I got a Pi Zero W for $5 the other day
01:41:57 <kmc> Microcenter has an ongoing deal for them
01:42:17 <kmc> I have no use for it just yet, but I think I will come up with something soon
01:42:24 <kmc> weird thing is, they were selling the non-wifi version for the same price
01:42:35 <kmc> i don't know of any advantage of the non-wifi model
01:43:01 <kmc> it is kind of silly to spend $5 on a computer and then rightaway more than that on a USB wifi adapter and an OTG cable
01:43:44 <shachaf> I was going to write a fancy synthesizer and run it on a Raspberry Pi.
01:44:03 <shachaf> But then the fancy synthesizer part turned out to be the main tricky part so I haven't gotten around to the second bit yet.
01:46:20 <shachaf> What's a good way to make APIs forward-compatible?
01:46:49 <shachaf> I hear Windows passes a struct whose first member is its sizeof, so they can grow it later.
01:48:02 <zzo38> For some uses, that can help. SQLite instead puts a version number at first in a struct, rather than its size.
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02:02:10 <fizzie> shachaf: protos for APIs twh hth hand
02:06:05 <fizzie> Maybe just make everything talk to everything else over gRPC.
02:06:59 <shachaf> should system calls take protos
02:07:07 <shachaf> that's the only reasonable thing to do
02:09:25 <shachaf> Oh no, template<typename T> int foo(T) { return 5; } doesn't correctly specialize to int foo(void) { return 5; }
02:16:10 <j4cbo> the thing of (void) meaning a 0-ary function is strictly C not C++
02:18:40 <shachaf> I thought it was valid C++, just not required like in C?
02:18:59 <zzo38> Does it not work in C++? Whether or not it works, I suppose that still it can make sense it doesn't specialize, since it is a different kind of notation.
02:19:06 <shachaf> (Anyway obviously it would be terrible if that specialization actually happened. But, y'know.)
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04:05:52 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62121&oldid=62110 * A * (+7) Remove a section that is completely useless
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05:06:56 <zzo38> I wrote a document describing how I would want to improve the rules of Magic: the Gathering
05:07:11 <shachaf> Didn't you write one a long time ago?
05:08:17 <zzo38> I think I did write some things before, but now I put a lot of things together, and also request comments
05:08:29 <zzo38> (if there are any comments)
05:18:00 <zzo38> They should implement in some NNTP client software, options for use with Unusenet. (It still works without, but they may be options you want to enable or disable; if used with Usenet, those options would have no effect.)
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06:39:30 <zzo38> Make up a Aura enchantment with four abilities (and no others): enchant permanent, persist, undying, and afterlife 2. How much mana cost would it be worth?
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10:14:48 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62122&oldid=62121 * A * (+352) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */
10:15:30 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62123&oldid=62122 * A * (+37)
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11:31:19 <esowiki> [[UnreadabIe]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62124 * A * (+239) Created page with "[[UnreadabIe]] is an [[esoteric programming language]] made by [[User:A]]. It is a substitution of [[Unreadable]]. (<code>"</code> is substituted by <code></code>.) Catego..."
11:33:50 <esowiki> [[UnreadabIe]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62125&oldid=62124 * A * (+968)
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11:42:15 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62126&oldid=62123 * A * (+267) /* Operations */
11:44:37 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62127&oldid=62126 * A * (+322) /* Operations */
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11:48:03 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62128&oldid=62127 * A * (+170) /* Operations */
11:50:24 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62129&oldid=62128 * A * (+145) /* Sketch: A Stack Machine */
11:51:49 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62130&oldid=62129 * A * (+123) /* Operations */
11:52:48 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62131&oldid=62130 * A * (+14) /* Operations */
11:54:17 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62132&oldid=62131 * A * (+111) /* Sketch: A Stack Machine */
12:15:13 <westonian> Hi all, Sookie is just 136 characters of pure BF, no shorthand. Don't know if anyone's sill interested in playing BFJoust, but if they are, game on.
12:34:17 <int-e> westonian: I think you have a good chance of attracting some discussion if you stay around a bit
12:35:37 <int-e> (the channel tends to be active in the evenings, european time, so maybe 4 hours from now.)
12:37:47 <int-e> westonian: did you write this by hand or did you use any automatic approach like genetic programming or the like?
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12:50:17 <Taneb> I guess we'll never know
12:51:01 <int-e> Hmm it's the best I could do. Maybe they'll be back.
12:51:44 <esowiki> [[Compose]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62133&oldid=62111 * YamTokTpaFa * (+24) +CAT (this IS about the language: ADD INTO [[:Category:Languages]] please)
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14:05:22 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62134&oldid=62132 * A * (+447) /* Sketch: A Stack Machine */
14:08:59 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62135&oldid=62134 * A * (+5) Failed attempt again
14:22:14 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62136&oldid=62135 * A * (+380) Inform that there are still more computational models out there.
14:23:07 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62137&oldid=62136 * A * (+32) /* Bitch might be Turing-incomplete */
14:31:45 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62138&oldid=62109 * A * (-69)
14:34:25 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62139&oldid=62138 * A * (+197)
14:35:59 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62140&oldid=62139 * A * (+8) Specify syntax error instruction set
14:39:01 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62141&oldid=62140 * A * (+54) Copy your programs for you
14:40:49 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62142&oldid=62141 * A * (+25) /* Cat program */
14:45:46 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62143&oldid=62142 * A * (+227) /* Possible */
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17:02:13 <orin> did you know that the anonymous function [&](){/*...*/} is guaranteed nothrow?
17:02:24 <kmc> no, why is that
17:10:09 <orin> hmm, apparently it isn't in the test case
17:15:33 <orin> int main () {std::thread foo([&](){throw std::runtime_error("argh!");}); foo.join();}
17:16:02 <orin> this ends with a segmentation fault, not with calling std::terminate
17:16:55 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62144&oldid=62137 * Helen * (-5) /* [Unsuccessful] Equivalency between bitch and Home Row by User:Helen */ I'm still working on it silently behind the scenes :)
17:18:09 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62145&oldid=62144 * Helen * (+168) /* The compilation probably failed */
17:24:17 <fizzie> Not for me: http://ix.io/1IXs
17:24:38 <fizzie> (Sorry for the indentation though.)
17:27:07 <orin> `thanks fizzie
17:27:39 <orin> That helps, I just have to avoid having any unhandled exceptions inside my threads
17:29:19 <orin> or convince people to get a more recent compiler?
17:29:36 <orin> g++ (GCC) 4.9.2 20150212 (Red Hat 4.9.2-6)
17:30:17 <int-e> . o O ( I wonder at what point any sequence of the special characters []{}&^%$#*+-/<>= will be valid C++ )
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18:30:29 <esowiki> [[WebFuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62146 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+673) Created page with "'''WebFuck''' is a [[Brainfuck]] created by [[User:Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn]] extencion that can be used in frontend web development. ==Commands== {| class="wikitable" |- ! Com..."
18:38:44 <esowiki> [[WebFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62147&oldid=62146 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+432)
18:40:41 <esowiki> [[WebFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62148&oldid=62147 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+17) /* Selectors */
18:55:01 <shachaf> did you know that exceptions are scow
18:55:08 <kmc> everyone knows that
18:55:13 <kmc> that's why we need herbceptions
19:03:44 <HackEso> olist 1163: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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19:51:36 <esowiki> [[WebFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62149&oldid=62148 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+440)
19:55:07 <esowiki> [[Small]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62150&oldid=55704 * Get52 * (+8) my old website is down currently, putting a temporary link here
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22:43:14 <esowiki> [[WebFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62151&oldid=62149 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (-1562) Blanked the page
22:47:26 <shachaf> What mechanism should I use for error handling?
22:48:11 <shachaf> that sounds a lot like exceptions tdnh
22:48:33 <fizzie> Then maybe hope instead.
22:48:54 <shachaf> well, at least it's not errno
22:49:16 <shachaf> What do you think of the Zig error set type? https://ziglang.org/documentation/master/#Errors
22:49:22 <shachaf> I meant to say "Do you like this?".
22:51:11 <shachaf> I guess one question is, should errors be more than an integer?
22:51:42 <shachaf> If they have strings or some arbitrary-length data then you might need to worry about memory management for them which is scow.
23:01:36 <Cale> What's scow about that?
23:01:55 <shachaf> Worrying about memory management?
23:02:16 <shachaf> It's pretty complicated, is all, compared to just returning an integer or something.
23:02:43 <Cale> If memory management is annoying, isn't that memory management's fault?
23:03:22 <shachaf> I mean, my program is running on a computer with physical. That's a little bit annoying compared to an abstract Turing machine or whatever, but that's how it is.
23:04:10 <Cale> Oh, you're still using *physical* hardware
23:04:16 <int-e> kmc: (for that reply)
23:04:36 <shachaf> I mean, in practice I've mostly been using denial.
23:04:42 <shachaf> I think it's maybe not so bad.
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23:05:22 <int-e> . o O ( obligatory fun (but completely unoriginal) pun: denial is a big river in India. )
23:05:22 -!- Sgeo has joined.
23:05:50 <shachaf> Wait, which denial are *you* talking about?
23:06:25 <int-e> I deny talking about denial.
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23:52:22 <shachaf> You know how you type `reset` and the terminal gets reset but it takes a long time?
23:52:46 <shachaf> Did you know it's spending that time doing sleep(1);?
23:54:08 <kmc> probably because some old terminal needs time to reset?
23:54:23 <shachaf> And now we all suffer the consequences.
23:54:47 <kmc> patch it if you don't like it
23:55:06 <int-e> just don't mess up your terminal in the first place ;-)
23:55:17 <shachaf> i rewrote /usr/bin/time because i didn't like it
23:55:38 <kmc> i wish i could rewrite all the things i don't like in my life
23:56:32 <shachaf> you could rewrite more cats into your life imo
23:57:16 <HackEso> cat: cat: No such file or directory \ cat: cat: No such file or directory
23:57:34 <HackEso> Cats are cool, but should be illegal.
23:58:27 <shachaf> http://slbkbs.org/tmp/tym.png
23:58:40 <shachaf> you can't get output like this out of a regular /usr/bin/time
23:58:47 <shachaf> you gotta get artisanal handcrafted software
23:58:56 <kmc> i can't have a cat here
23:59:01 <kmc> apartment is not cat proof
23:59:18 <kmc> shachaf: did you write it from scratch or modify /usr/bin/time
23:59:23 <int-e> cat-proof - didn't parse.
23:59:43 <int-e> cats know everything about doing things "from scratch"
23:59:51 <kmc> i like that you didn't have the patience to wait 1 second for the demo
00:00:06 <shachaf> well, i wanted to show off how it prints the signal when the program is killed
00:00:13 <shachaf> otherwise it prints the exit status
00:00:48 <shachaf> anyway why doesn't my shell save the time and rusage of every command i run and show it to me if i ask
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00:01:34 <shachaf> answer: because shells are scow and run inside a terminal for no great reason so they can't have a good ui
00:02:07 <shachaf> you might as well ask why my shell doesn't let me have multiple commands running at once without interleaving their output. same answer.
00:02:15 <kmc> I need to find something to do to not feel awful :(
00:03:36 * int-e should go for a walk outside.
00:03:43 <shachaf> maybe get really mad at some people on the internet?
00:03:55 <shachaf> man, that's a completely unconstructive thing to say
00:04:01 <shachaf> not sure what the point was
00:05:48 <kmc> i've been an asshole to you enough times for no reason, you can have a turn
00:06:02 <kmc> but i really haven't been getting really mad at people on the internet very much lately
00:07:09 <kmc> i haven't left the house today, maybe i should change that
00:09:44 <orin> I once had the idea of a shell that would make seperate onscreen "windows" for each comand you ran
00:10:01 <orin> Then I realized that's just called a terminal
00:10:26 <shachaf> I think it's more like, the terminal and the shell are integrate, and each command gets its own region of the terminal that you can scroll and search separately and so on.
00:11:18 <kmc> this wireless keyboard I bought less than two weeks ago says it's tested on debian 3.1, redhat 9.0, ubuntu 8.10 and fedora 7.0
00:12:15 <shachaf> Debian Stable is already at 3.2! So out of date.
00:12:27 <orin> the danish word for week is pronounced like uwu
00:12:56 <shachaf> What's the Danish word for "fternooner"?
00:12:57 <kmc> how is it spelled
00:13:27 <kmc> "Step1: Keep your PC on, and be sure the keyboard is full of power."
00:14:09 <orin> uge, apparently
00:18:33 <shachaf> I feel like I should stop using libc as much as possible on Linux.
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00:41:21 <esowiki> [[User:ZirconiumX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62152&oldid=26724 * ZirconiumX * (-29)
01:10:26 <oerjan> . o O ( int-e seems to be in denial about the difference between Egypt and India )
01:11:32 <int-e> Pr maybe I mixed up Nile and Ganges. You pick.
01:11:59 <int-e> (that is actually closer to the truth)
01:12:34 <shachaf> You mixed up Egypt and India, and you mixed up Nile and Ganges. And also you thought the Ganges was in Egypt.
01:16:17 <shachaf> whoa, <2^70 chosen prefix collision on SHA1
01:16:31 <oerjan> `append_wisdom shachaf We don't like this.
01:16:32 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: append_wisdom: not found
01:16:48 <oerjan> `learn_append shachaf We don't like this.
01:16:50 <HackEso> Learned 'shachaf': Queen Shachaf of the Dawn sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends. He hates bell peppers with a passion. He doesn't know when to stop asking questions. We don't like this.
01:17:01 <shachaf> Wait, I ask too many questions?
01:18:56 <oerjan> my addition isn't _really_ related to the previous sentence btw
01:19:19 <HackEso> zzo38 is not actually the next version of fungot, much as it may seem.
01:19:38 <oerjan> except in so far as it implies you ask one _particular_ question too much.
01:21:40 <int-e> hmm "The SHA1 hashes are large enough that the odds of accidental hash collision are negligible for projects that could be handled by the human race. The known weaknesses in SHA1 are currently still not practical to attack, and Mercurial will switch to SHA256 hashing before that becomes a realistic concern."
01:22:15 <shachaf> oerjan: Well, that's not too many questions, at least.
01:22:24 <pikhq> Bit late for that.
01:22:24 <shachaf> It may be too many instances of the same question.
01:22:54 <HackEso> hg is dark alchemy used by oerjan to fix things. Like most alchemy, it involves drinking mercury.
01:24:36 <int-e> hmm, did I miss this or forget? https://github.blog/2017-03-20-sha-1-collision-detection-on-github-com/
01:29:54 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
01:30:24 <int-e> the git folks are visibly working on it at least.
01:30:46 <shachaf> I wish people hadn't given up on version control as soon as git came out.
01:30:59 <shachaf> There are all sorts of things git isn't great at.
01:34:08 <int-e> I have this strange feeling of deja vu right now.
01:39:21 <shachaf> I keep saying these things and people keep using git anyway. How dare they?
01:39:54 <int-e> the good is the enemy of the perfect
01:41:20 <int-e> or, using your favorite phrase: git is tg
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02:46:10 <westonian> Just checked the logs, "<int-e> westonian: did you write this by hand or did you use any automatic approach like genetic programming or the like?"
02:48:36 <westonian> I first wrote it 5 years ago for this https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/37137/15982
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02:55:50 <westonian_> At the time I couldn't cope with the shorthand. I was attempting to expand which meant I couldn't train against NyurokiMagicalFantasy and a couple of others.
02:56:39 <westonian_> This time I did that and evolved against all bots and using mostly correct Markov scoring
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03:57:55 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62153&oldid=62143 * A * (+27) /* Binary to unary conversion */
03:59:49 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62154&oldid=62145 * A * (+7) /* The compilation probably failed */
04:00:27 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62155&oldid=62154 * A * (+7) /* Bitch might be Turing-incomplete */
04:03:05 <Hooloovo0> well, they're bad at IRC, but they seem to lurk a lot on stack exchange
04:09:23 <esowiki> [[A:;]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62156&oldid=58819 * A * (+195)
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06:27:56 <esowiki> [[Bf core]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62157&oldid=49810 * Total Vacuum * (+13)
06:28:08 <esowiki> [[Uf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62158&oldid=61151 * Total Vacuum * (+13)
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10:05:26 <esowiki> [[A:;]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62159&oldid=62156 * A * (+5)
10:09:37 <esowiki> [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62160&oldid=61915 * A * (+13)
10:09:52 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62161&oldid=61482 * A * (+14)
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10:45:35 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bf core]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62162&oldid=57894 * A * (-166) Blanked the page
11:12:11 <esowiki> [[Owk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62163&oldid=43315 * YamTokTpaFa * (+24) +CAT
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12:02:20 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bf core]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62164&oldid=62162 * Total Vacuum * (+310)
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12:11:06 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62165&oldid=62155 * A * (+966) Impossible: Bootstrapping
12:11:48 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62166&oldid=62165 * A * (+1) /* Incapability of bitch implementing Popular problems */
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12:19:29 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62167&oldid=62166 * A * (+1127) /* Incapability of bitch implementing Popular problems */
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12:25:15 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62168&oldid=62153 * A * (+235) /* Impossible */
12:25:46 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62169&oldid=62168 * A * (+0) Bootstrapping is impossible
12:26:40 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62170&oldid=62169 * A * (-15) /* Popular Problem solutions in bitch */
12:29:21 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62171&oldid=62170 * A * (+28) /* Impossible */
12:31:34 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62172&oldid=62171 * A * (+129) A lot of programs are impossible
12:33:40 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62173&oldid=62167 * A * (+86) /* Possible with Adjustments */
12:42:07 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62174&oldid=62173 * A * (+104) /* Possible with Adjustments */
12:42:26 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62175&oldid=62174 * A * (-18) /* Possible with Adjustments */
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14:01:33 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62177&oldid=62172 * A * (+104) bitch only has unbounded integers supported, and is thus strong and static typed.
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14:07:10 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62178&oldid=62177 * A * (-3)
14:07:30 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62179&oldid=62178 * A * (+9)
14:08:19 <esowiki> [[Keys]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62180 * A * (+123) Created page with "[[Keys]] is a joke language created by [[User:A]]. [[Category:Joke languages]] [[Category:2019]] [[Category:Unimplemented]]"
14:10:00 <esowiki> [[Keys]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62181&oldid=62180 * A * (+267)
14:12:26 <esowiki> [[Keys]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62182&oldid=62181 * A * (+329)
14:14:15 <esowiki> [[Keys]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62183&oldid=62182 * A * (+318) /* Example programs */
14:17:08 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62184&oldid=61707 * A * (+24) /* General languages */
14:21:27 <esowiki> [[Basilisk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62185&oldid=42996 * A * (+399) /* Sample programs */
14:24:07 <esowiki> [[Basilisk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62186&oldid=62185 * A * (+8) /* Computational class */
14:25:50 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Yper * New user account
14:25:53 <esowiki> [[Basilisk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62187&oldid=62186 * A * (-154) Nope
14:30:50 <esowiki> [[Talk:Basilisk]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62188 * A * (+277) Ask a question
14:31:01 <esowiki> [[Talk:Basilisk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62189&oldid=62188 * A * (-77) /* Process of executing a program */
14:41:14 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62190&oldid=62104 * Yper * (+418) /* Introductions */
14:41:46 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62191&oldid=60731 * Yper * (+117) /* Interpreters in plain C */
14:42:17 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62192&oldid=62191 * Yper * (+111) /* JIT Interpreters */
14:45:18 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62193&oldid=62190 * Yper * (+0) /* Introductions */
14:47:05 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bf core]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62194&oldid=62176 * Total Vacuum * (+89)
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17:19:55 <shachaf> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CyaqGDQXUAAwYQo.jpg
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22:27:46 <orin> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDeFb4Jc2VA
22:38:07 <adu> is that kpop
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23:35:37 <shachaf> how bad of an idea is this, twh
23:35:48 <shachaf> #if THING; if (...) { ... }; #else; if (...) { ... }; #endif; else { ... }
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01:38:40 <tswett[m]> So what's the word "scow" all about?
01:39:19 <tswett[m]> Is it autological or heterological?
01:39:58 <lambdabot> *** "scow" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
01:39:58 <lambdabot> n 1: any of various flat-bottomed boats with sloping ends
01:39:58 <lambdabot> 2: a barge carrying bulk materials in an open hold
01:52:39 <kmc> autological imo
01:52:54 <kmc> it's some injoke from the gmail team at google that shachaf has made it his life's mission to propagate
01:53:01 <kmc> it means "bad"
01:55:02 <shachaf> are they turing complete twnh
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02:14:43 <orin> adu: no, it's uh... enka i think?
02:15:28 <orin> may or may not be classified as enka, but definitely from japan yeah
02:17:45 <orin> name of song is "giant boobs song"
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04:02:37 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62195&oldid=62179 * A * (+133) /* Popular Problem solutions in bitch */
04:02:52 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62196&oldid=62195 * A * (-2) /* Unproven */
04:03:34 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62197&oldid=62196 * A * (-131) Undo revision 62196 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]])
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10:49:05 <esowiki> [[Ephermal]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62198 * A * (+162) Created page with "[[Ephermal]] is an [[esoteric programming language]] that has variables that do not last long. [[Category:Languages]] [[Category:2019]] [[Category:Unimplemented]]"
10:52:47 <esowiki> [[Ephermal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62199&oldid=62198 * A * (+405)
11:01:50 <esowiki> [[Ephermal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62200&oldid=62199 * A * (+1286) /* Syntax */
11:05:16 <esowiki> [[Ephermal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62201&oldid=62200 * A * (-1) /* Computational class */
11:06:45 <esowiki> [[Works in progress]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62202&oldid=61640 * A * (-14) Definer is not a WIP; the author ignored it.
11:16:40 <esowiki> [[NIP]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62203 * A * (+114) Created page with "[[NIP]] is an [[esoteric programming language]]. [[Category:Languages]][[Category:2019]][[Category:Unimplemented]]"
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11:22:50 <esowiki> [[NIP]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62204&oldid=62203 * A * (+908)
11:23:01 <esowiki> [[NIP]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62205&oldid=62204 * A * (+4) /* Simple looping adder */
11:23:20 <esowiki> [[NIP]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62206&oldid=62205 * A * (+5) /* Hello, world! program */
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12:21:59 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62207&oldid=62197 * A * (-130) Infobox seems too long
12:22:19 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62208&oldid=62207 * A * (+48)
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12:43:04 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62209&oldid=62208 * A * (+87) Clarify
13:07:39 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62210&oldid=62209 * A * (+1541) /* Possible with adjustments */
13:08:23 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62211&oldid=62210 * A * (+67) /* 99 bottles of beer */
13:09:15 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62212&oldid=62211 * A * (-24) /* Popular Problem solutions in bitch */
13:34:52 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62213&oldid=62212 * A * (+24) /* Unproven */
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15:51:09 <esowiki> [[User:BradensEsolangs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62214&oldid=60451 * BradensEsolangs * (+68)
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16:04:04 <APic> MECHANIC: SOMEBODY SET UP US THE BOMB.
16:04:10 <APic> Sorry, could not resist.
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16:19:19 <john_metcalf> Does anyone know why a .php file I uploaded to a Windows server might give a http error 500? I'm assuming I need to put something in the web.config but I didn't find anything helpful with Google :-(
16:20:14 <rain1> what web server is it?
16:20:28 <rain1> did you try a very simple hello world .php first?
16:21:23 <john_metcalf> Not sure yet. I've looked but didn't find out which. I can only access it via Plesk at the moment.
16:22:40 <john_metcalf> I had a working wiki, but the server (on shared hosting) died. They've moved me to webspace on a new server, but I have to set everything up from scratch.
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16:23:13 <john_metcalf> Not the world's greatest customer service from the host, but I just want to get the wiki up and running again.
16:24:02 <john_metcalf> Didn't try a hello world. I just went straight to uploading DokuWiki to the webspace. But I can't run install.php in the browser.
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23:16:12 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62215&oldid=62193 * Unlimiter * (+525)
23:17:29 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62216&oldid=61556 * Unlimiter * (+118)
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23:37:25 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62217&oldid=62216 * Unlimiter * (+295)
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23:39:38 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62218&oldid=62217 * Unlimiter * (+16)
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01:03:14 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62219&oldid=62218 * Unlimiter * (+173)
01:03:42 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62220&oldid=62219 * Unlimiter * (+6)
01:06:37 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62221&oldid=62220 * Unlimiter * (+37)
01:20:02 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62222&oldid=62221 * Unlimiter * (+1539)
01:23:14 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62223&oldid=62222 * Unlimiter * (+8)
01:26:08 <esowiki> [[Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62224&oldid=60228 * Unlimiter * (+238)
01:26:34 <esowiki> [[Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62225&oldid=62224 * Unlimiter * (-238)
01:26:58 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62226&oldid=62223 * Unlimiter * (+34)
01:28:15 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62227&oldid=62226 * Unlimiter * (-15)
01:39:34 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62228&oldid=62227 * Unlimiter * (+65)
01:42:49 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62229&oldid=62228 * Unlimiter * (+30)
01:51:38 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62230&oldid=62229 * Unlimiter * (+127)
01:52:05 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62231&oldid=62230 * Unlimiter * (-1)
01:52:21 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62232&oldid=62231 * Unlimiter * (+2)
01:52:32 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62233&oldid=62232 * Unlimiter * (-1)
01:52:39 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * HereToAnnoy * moved [[Ephermal]] to [[Ephemeral]]: Fix typo by A
01:52:43 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62236&oldid=62233 * Unlimiter * (+1)
01:53:12 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62237&oldid=62236 * Unlimiter * (+14)
01:53:27 <esowiki> [[Ephemeral]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62238&oldid=62234 * HereToAnnoy * (-67) Remove reference to fixed typo
01:53:59 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62239&oldid=62237 * Unlimiter * (-39)
01:54:34 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62240&oldid=62239 * Unlimiter * (+22)
01:54:47 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62241&oldid=62240 * Unlimiter * (-38)
01:56:02 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62242&oldid=62241 * Unlimiter * (+7) /* Overview */
02:55:35 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62243&oldid=62242 * Unlimiter * (+52)
02:56:00 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62244&oldid=62243 * Unlimiter * (+0) /* Instructions */
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04:11:30 <A__> I have not been talking here, so I will post a message just to get used to IRC... please don't mind.
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06:39:30 <shachaf> https://arxiv.org/pdf/1804.10193.pdf
06:39:38 <shachaf> spoilers for the witness hth
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11:12:46 <esowiki> [[Turing Machine But Way Worse]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62245&oldid=61896 * RealUndefined * (+475) /* Programs */ real cat program
11:14:02 <esowiki> [[Turing Machine But Way Worse]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62246&oldid=62245 * RealUndefined * (+65)
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12:13:40 <Taneb> Well, I haven't magically learnt how to play NetHack
12:19:08 <int-e> Hmm, isn't that the game that you start, and then after pressing a couple of keys you get an ASCII tombstone? Never saw the point in that ;-)
12:19:35 <myname> i really want to learn cataclysm dda
12:22:18 <Taneb> Dance Dance Activism, a prequel to Dance Dance Revolution
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12:30:03 <myname> i mean, a roguelike where you can ride a bicycle. what more can you wish for
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12:43:59 <Taneb> A few years ago for a Ludum Dare some uni friends made a roguelike with playable classes "Dog", "Miner", "Attorney", and playable races "Quarterling" and "Dutch"
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12:47:24 <Taneb> I think they decided this by asking me while I was working on a submarine explorer game which I never really got anywhere with
12:47:30 <myname> i would totally play that
12:47:51 <myname> dutch attorney sounds like an op character
12:47:54 <Taneb> https://github.com/HackSoc/LudumDare29
12:48:13 <int-e> a quarterling attorney has only half a leg to stand on?
12:48:55 <Taneb> A quarterling is like a halfling but more
12:49:28 <Taneb> There's also "clog maker", "chef", "huntsman", and "tourist" classes
12:49:59 <int-e> Yeah I think I got "quarterling" just fine. But that wasn't remotely funny.
12:50:34 <int-e> Tourists are scary (at least the Discworld kind. The plural may be a bit of a stretch though.)
12:51:13 <lambdabot> https://discworld.fandom.com/wiki/Twoflower
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13:18:01 <myname> i am interested in what people do with location or activity based games
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13:30:29 <Taneb> What do you mean by that?
13:31:14 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62247&oldid=62244 * A * (+192) Draft a mystery language
13:32:10 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62248&oldid=62247 * A * (+139) Add an example...
13:33:21 <myname> pokemon go/ingress/delta t/jurassic park world/...
13:34:50 <Taneb> I stopped playing Pokemon Go because I couldn't decide a team and then my inventory got fulk
13:35:32 <myname> i dislike it for being neither a good pokemon game nor a good location based game
13:36:14 <myname> games living solely on the underlying IP are not my cup of tea
13:37:18 <myname> niantic is pretty bad at making good games
13:40:15 <myname> i stumbled upon orna by accident. i like the idea, but it is lacking content imho
13:42:18 <myname> i'd love having a framework for something similar
13:43:17 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62249&oldid=62248 * A * (+894) /* Syntax */
13:44:20 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62250&oldid=62249 * A * (+85) Add inspiration
13:47:05 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62251&oldid=62250 * A * (+95) /* Syntax */
13:48:18 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62252&oldid=62251 * A * (-20) /* Syntax */
13:53:12 <esowiki> [[Talk]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62253 * A * (+1411) Created page with "Believe it or not, it is inspired by part of [[User talk:Helen|Helen's user talk]]. {{infobox proglang |name=Talk |paradigms=imperative |author=[[User:A]] |year=:Category:20..."
13:53:17 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62254&oldid=62252 * A * (-1385)
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14:37:37 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62255&oldid=62254 * Unlimiter * (-43)
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17:45:33 <HackEso> - \ :#,_@ \ bin \ canary \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ f \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ izash.c \ karma \ le \ lib \ misle \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quines \ quinor \ quotes \ share \ src \ test2 \ testfile \ tmflry \ tmp \ wisdom
17:45:54 <HackEso> bin \ dev \ etc \ hackenv \ lib \ lib64 \ proc \ sbin \ srv \ sys \ tmp \ usr
17:45:59 <rain1> `cat /sys/devices/system/cpu/vulnerabilities/spec_store_bypass
17:46:00 <HackEso> cat: /sys/devices/system/cpu/vulnerabilities/spec_store_bypass: No such file or directory
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18:04:53 <int-e> meh, all those mitigations...
18:05:08 <int-e> rain1: did you see https://make-linux-fast-again.com/
18:06:05 <int-e> ...instead of all these mitigations how about we don't run untrusted code... sure, it means disabling javascript in the browser but what possible harm can that do?!?!
18:07:08 <shachaf> do you yearn for the old days when everything was predictable
18:07:08 <int-e> Because as far as I can see Javascript is the sole reason why I should care about these vulnerabilities at all... it's my desktop.
18:07:48 <shachaf> I think computers being able to run general-purpose code is a pretty great feature
18:08:04 <shachaf> You might say it's the distinguishing feature of computers
18:08:20 <int-e> Sure, if it's my code, or application code that I actually deliberately invoked myself.
18:08:27 <shachaf> It's a shame to require you to trust that code.
18:08:46 <int-e> But that should be a privilege, not something given out nilly-willy to random foreign websites.
18:09:18 <int-e> It's a bad world :/
18:11:41 <int-e> Because of the people, I think.
18:13:29 <shachaf> I think being able to run untrusted code is a pretty great feature.
18:20:32 <int-e> Well at least let's shove it into some place where it doesn't share any resources (including bus) with any important stuff.
18:23:48 <fizzie> Maybe they can put a smaller computer inside your computer for running untrusted code.
18:23:59 <fizzie> Computers are pretty cheap.
18:24:33 <shachaf> Chrome has a process per tab, but a computer per tab sounds like a much better plan.
18:24:56 <int-e> The people who're really screwed are VPS providers (or their users, depending on how you look at it).
18:25:40 <int-e> that's on a VPS (of course?)
18:25:44 <shachaf> Fortunately lambdabot holds no confidential information.
18:25:59 <int-e> . o O ( who can @tell? )
18:26:28 <int-e> But mostly, yes, that's the attitude I'm taking with it as well.
18:26:53 <shachaf> Speaking of scow, I'm pretty surprised at how complicated it is to get a program that shows simple graphics and runs its loop at a predictable 1/60 s latency.
18:27:03 <shachaf> In X11 with OpenGL, at least.
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19:22:22 <kmc> data is code anyway
19:23:23 <shachaf> that's why X11 ids are only 29 bits
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20:01:46 <john_metcalf> The BF Joust hill opened 10 years ago (May 2009). Didn't realise it'd been so long!
20:17:49 <zemhill_______> web.test2: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47 (-23)
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21:38:05 <fizzie> @tell oerjan We're hoping for your song to win.
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22:40:16 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * TriMill * New user account
22:40:43 <int-e> yay I've made bitch programming managable. https://github.com/int-e/bitch/blob/master/examples/brainfuck.pp results in https://github.com/int-e/bitch/blob/master/examples/brainfuck
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22:47:05 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62256&oldid=62175 * Int-e * (+351) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */ Brainfuck! (but no closer to TC)
23:05:35 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62257&oldid=62215 * TriMill * (+399) /* Introductions */
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10:18:09 <esowiki> [[Turing Machine But Way Worse]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62258&oldid=62246 * RealUndefined * (-65)
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11:15:59 <esowiki> [[XO Mchne]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62259 * A * (+248) Tmp page
11:17:45 <esowiki> [[XO Mchne]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62260&oldid=62259 * A * (+142)
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11:22:39 <esowiki> [[XO Mchne]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62261&oldid=62260 * A * (+542) /* Exclusive-Or reference */
11:23:24 <esowiki> [[XO Mchne]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62262&oldid=62261 * A * (+6) /* Output whether a=b */
11:24:09 <esowiki> [[XO Mchne]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62263&oldid=62262 * A * (+67) /* Output whether a=b */
11:24:46 <esowiki> [[XO Mchne]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62264&oldid=62263 * A * (+84) /* The Program Execution Process */
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12:52:10 <esowiki> [[XO Mchne]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62265&oldid=62264 * A * (+35)
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12:54:21 <esowiki> [[Cut]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62266 * A * (+77) Created page with "[[Cut]] is a [[joke language]]. [[Category:2019]] [[Category:Joke languages]]"
12:58:15 <esowiki> [[Cut]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62267&oldid=62266 * A * (+475)
13:00:23 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62268&oldid=62184 * A * (+44) /* General languages */
13:03:14 <esowiki> [[OISC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62269&oldid=61473 * A * (+116) /* List of OISCs */
13:04:08 <esowiki> [[OISC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62270&oldid=62269 * A * (+1) /* List of OISCs */
13:45:45 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62271&oldid=62256 * A * (+146) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */
13:47:13 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62272&oldid=62271 * A * (+195) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */
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13:53:28 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62273&oldid=62272 * A * (+46) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */
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14:15:55 <esowiki> [[XO Mchne]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62274&oldid=62265 * A * (+633) /* Example programs */
14:16:35 <esowiki> [[XO Mchne]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62275&oldid=62274 * A * (-2) /* C Implementation */
14:19:50 <esowiki> [[Cut]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62276&oldid=62267 * A * (+326) /* Example programs */
14:25:11 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62277&oldid=62255 * A * (+9) Type another name into the sandbox
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14:29:40 <esowiki> [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62278 * A * (+56) You see, esolangs.org supports creating a page with a blank name, which is quite astonishing!!!
14:32:12 <esowiki> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62279&oldid=62278 * A * (-7) See https://esolangs.org/logs/2019-05-17.html#lib if you don't believe it...
14:36:11 <esowiki> [[XO Mchne]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62280&oldid=62275 * A * (+0) Oops, fix a typo
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14:43:33 <esowiki> [[XO Mchne]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62281&oldid=62280 * A * (+18) /* Example programs */
14:49:19 <esowiki> [[XO Mchne]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62282&oldid=62281 * A * (+8) Oops
14:51:15 <esowiki> [[XO Mchne]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62283&oldid=62282 * A * (+54) /* Example programs */
14:56:02 <esowiki> [[XO Mchne]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62284&oldid=62283 * A * (+57) /* a */
14:56:22 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62285&oldid=62273 * Int-e * (+1411) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */ some answers
14:57:06 <esowiki> [[XO Mchne]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62286&oldid=62284 * A * (+10) /* NOT b */
15:02:07 <esowiki> [[XO Mchne]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62287&oldid=62286 * A * (+59) /* Example programs */
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18:13:55 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Linneris * New user account
18:16:36 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62288&oldid=62257 * Linneris * (+266)
18:16:43 <esowiki> [[Halting problem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62289&oldid=37159 * Linneris * (-8)
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19:49:19 <esowiki> [[HARSH]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62290&oldid=58563 * ShareMan * (-300) Fixed typos and misinformation
20:05:30 <esowiki> [[User:TuxCrafting]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62291&oldid=61311 * TuxCrafting * (+108)
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00:55:59 <zzo38> I thought of a idea of esolang, which is there is some finite number of inputs each of which stores a natural number, and a finite number of registers in the program, each of which stores a queue with natural numbers and/or names of inputs, and each register also has a maximum amount of the sum of its contents, which is defined as a polynomial of the input variables with integer coefficients which must have a natural number result for all possible
00:58:03 <zzo38> And then there is operation, which is: make a register empty, check if a register is empty (and jump based on the result), append a element onto a queue (can only be a constant natural number or a constant name of a input) (if that would cause it to exceed the maximum, then it is unchanged), move as many elements from the beginning of one register to the end of another that will fit, output a register, and terminate.
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04:12:12 <esowiki> [[Talk:Echo Tag]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62292 * Zzo38 * (+472) Created page with "Even if ''n'' is large, still the proof should be provided (if it is correct) (just to see if it can be Turing-complete at all); if someone else can prove it Turing-complete f..."
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06:07:23 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62293&oldid=62285 * A * (+116) I cannot test it.
06:08:52 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62294&oldid=62293 * A * (+149) Add my test program
06:13:06 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62295&oldid=62294 * A * (+0) Another irritating micro-edit
06:18:43 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62296&oldid=62295 * A * (+416) Add a lot of info
06:19:19 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62297&oldid=62296 * A * (+0) Move signature
06:21:38 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62298&oldid=62297 * A * (-43) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */
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06:27:35 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62299&oldid=62298 * A * (-638) Sorry. I did not update implementation
06:38:35 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62300&oldid=62299 * A * (+213) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */
06:51:59 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62301&oldid=62300 * A * (+126) Wonderful!
06:57:15 <esowiki> [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62302&oldid=62160 * A * (+384) Interesting program form
06:59:47 <esowiki> [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62303&oldid=62302 * A * (+70) Golfed program
07:01:45 <esowiki> [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62304&oldid=62303 * A * (+49)
07:08:08 <esowiki> [[Golf/Feature golf]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62305 * A * (+501) Created page with "Feature golf is a specific type of golf. Its goal is to to write the shortest program that uses up all of the features in a programming language without including dead code...."
07:08:30 <esowiki> [[Golf/Feature golf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62306&oldid=62305 * A * (+0)
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07:59:56 <esowiki> [[Talk:Z]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62307 * TuxCrafting * (+759) Created page with "I am trying to implement (well, re-implement) Z, but I'm having trouble understanding what some instructions are supposed to do and running examples. * <code>zz Z</code>, <co..."
08:02:27 <esowiki> [[Z]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62308&oldid=60768 * TuxCrafting * (-97) i'm trying to reimplement it but it's confusing
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08:18:29 <esowiki> [[Golf/Feature golf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62309&oldid=62306 * A * (-214)
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08:58:17 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62310&oldid=62301 * A * (+204) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */
09:01:20 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62311&oldid=62310 * A * (-204) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */
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10:39:45 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62312&oldid=62311 * A * (+182) /* [Ongoing] Equivalency between bitch and Home Row by User:Helen */
10:42:55 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck implementations]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62313&oldid=60658 * A * (+138) /* Normal implementations */
10:45:15 <esowiki> [[EsoInterpreters]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62314&oldid=53710 * A * (+453) /* Main table */
10:56:29 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62315&oldid=62312 * A * (+332) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */
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12:32:05 <esowiki> [[M-code]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62316&oldid=57368 * Madk * (+2) Update download link
12:32:38 <esowiki> [[Grin]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62317&oldid=57369 * Madk * (+2) Update download link
12:33:15 <esowiki> [[Tri]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62318&oldid=57370 * Madk * (+3) Update download link
12:33:46 <esowiki> [[Tri]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62319&oldid=62318 * Madk * (-1) Fix mistake in link update
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12:35:19 <esowiki> [[Cardinal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62320&oldid=57371 * Madk * (+29) Update download link (original interpreter)
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12:41:08 <esowiki> [[Fit]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62321&oldid=57373 * Madk * (+2) Update download link
12:41:49 <esowiki> [[Staq]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62322&oldid=57374 * Madk * (+2) Update download link
12:42:30 <esowiki> [[PoGo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62323&oldid=57375 * Madk * (+2) Update download link
12:43:20 <esowiki> [[D1ffe7e45e]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62324&oldid=57376 * Madk * (-5) Update download link
12:43:44 <esowiki> [[D1ffe7e45e]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62325&oldid=62324 * Madk * (+7) Fix download link update mistake
12:44:13 <esowiki> [[Surface]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62326&oldid=57367 * Madk * (+5) Update download link
12:44:41 <esowiki> [[Minimal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62327&oldid=57377 * Madk * (+2) Update download link
12:45:23 <esowiki> [[Vrejvax]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62328&oldid=58896 * Madk * (+2) Update interpreter download link
12:45:58 <esowiki> [[BrainCursion]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62329&oldid=57380 * Madk * (+2) Update download link
12:46:23 <esowiki> [[Filth]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62330&oldid=57381 * Madk * (+2) Update download link
12:47:07 <esowiki> [[BF-PDA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62331&oldid=57383 * Madk * (+2) Update download link
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13:03:05 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62332&oldid=62315 * Int-e * (+382) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */ nested loops + cosmetics
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14:13:03 <rain1> my earlier analysis was wrong
14:21:34 <int-e> a) what analysis? b) surprise?!
14:33:11 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62333&oldid=62332 * A * (-96) Oh no, I mis-referred a page.
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14:35:50 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62334&oldid=62333 * A * (+7) Page improvement
14:40:00 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62335&oldid=62334 * A * (+3)
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14:48:53 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62336&oldid=62335 * A * (+71) Argh! I had to make another minor edit. Sorry for the inconvenience.
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15:18:32 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62337&oldid=62336 * A * (+245) /* Incapability of bitch implementing Popular problems */
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19:07:41 <esowiki> [[Shark]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62338 * Madk * (+3519) Add Shark esolang
19:19:39 <esowiki> [[User:Madk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62339&oldid=57385 * Madk * (+12) /* Pages I've created */
19:24:10 <esowiki> [[M?!]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62340 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+666) Created page with " '''M+-'''is an [[esoteric programming language]] based on [[Brainfuck]] but with less comands: ==Commands== {| class="wikitable" |- ! Command !! Use |- | m || Goes to the nex..."
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19:24:59 <esowiki> [[M?!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62341&oldid=62340 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+1) /* Commands */
19:25:27 <esowiki> [[M?!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62342&oldid=62341 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+5) /* Commands */
19:27:18 <esowiki> [[M?!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62343&oldid=62342 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+60)
19:27:34 <esowiki> [[M?!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62344&oldid=62343 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (-1)
19:28:02 <zzo38> I am starting to implement the IHAVE command in sqlnetnews now.
19:28:51 <esowiki> [[M?!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62345&oldid=62344 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+0)
19:29:05 <esowiki> [[M?!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62346&oldid=62345 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+1)
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19:31:08 <zzo38> And then I can add SUBSCRIBE and UNSUBSCRIBE commands, and a separate program "sqlsubnews" that, when run (probably by anacron), will send messages to the subscribers.
19:38:14 <esowiki> [[Shark]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62347&oldid=62338 * Madk * (+76) Add cat example program
19:38:26 <esowiki> [[Shark]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62348&oldid=62347 * Madk * (+1) Fix formatting
19:39:09 <esowiki> [[Shark]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62349&oldid=62348 * Madk * (-3) Remove unneeded terminate instruction at the end of most examples
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21:40:44 <rdococ> Is there a way to create a total programming language so that the termination requirement is "written into the syntax", instead of requiring some sort of separate checker?
21:42:56 <kmc> for example you can require that loop bounds are always literals
21:43:08 <kmc> or not have looping at all
21:43:29 <rdococ> what about when using recursion?
21:47:21 <zzo38> In Godel,Escher,Bach they describe a program language "BlooP" which requires the loop count to be specified at the top of the loop; it can be calculated but is set when the loop starts. Recursion is also prohibited.
21:48:03 <kmc> iirc one of their languages corresponds to primitive recursion
21:48:57 <kmc> rdococ: languages like Coq and Agda the terminatio check is based on the algebraic data syntax
21:49:16 <kmc> for data types it's a reqirement that you pattern match off at least one layer of constructor before you call recursively
21:49:24 <kmc> so f (Foo x) = ... f x ... is fine
21:49:29 <kmc> but f x = ... f x ... is not
21:49:39 <kmc> for codata / coinductive functions it's the opposite
21:49:52 <kmc> each recursive call must be buried inside at least one constructor
21:49:58 <kmc> g x = ... Foo (g x) ...
21:50:16 <kmc> this guarantees that a consumer of g can resolve any pattern match in finite time
21:50:33 <kmc> case g x of Foo y => ...
21:50:38 <kmc> will only have to call g once
21:51:11 <kmc> this allows you to have infinite data structures (really codata structures) without infinite loops
21:51:30 <kmc> repeat x = Cons x (repeat x)
21:53:23 <kmc> rdococ: note that the termination check for recursive functions allows you to get away with putting a numerical bound on general recursion
21:53:37 <kmc> by way of peano arithmetic
21:54:25 <kmc> f (Succ limit) x = ... f limit x ...
21:54:37 <kmc> the implementation will see that 'limit' is decreasing, even if x isn't
21:55:04 <rdococ> what about f (Foo x) = ... f (Foo x) ...?
21:55:06 <kmc> of course, it needs to know that the peano number type is data and not codata!
21:55:23 <kmc> this distincti is very important in total langs
21:55:32 <kmc> unlike, say, Haskell, where everything is codata
21:55:37 <kmc> rdococ: not allowed
21:55:55 <rdococ> if you try to use regular recursion on codata then it would not terminate
21:56:01 <rdococ> (if the codata is infinite)
21:56:29 <kmc> I think the rule is that the argument in the recursive call has to be a strict sub-expression of the parameter, for at least oe parameter
21:56:43 <kmc> so you're only allowed to do that if you return codata and comply with the codata rule
21:56:56 <kmc> for example map on a codata list
21:57:00 <shachaf> in haskell everything is some bizarre mix of data/codata
21:57:10 <shachaf> non-strictness is kind of scow
21:57:16 <kmc> map f Nil = Nil; map f (Cons x xs) = Cons (f x) (map f xs)
21:57:51 <kmc> (in fact you could define a type for infinite lists *only* that has no Nil)
21:57:53 <kmc> this is ok even though you are recursing on an infinite codata structure
21:58:00 <kmc> because you are also producing constructors at every step
21:58:21 <kmc> shachaf: I suppose so
21:58:24 <kmc> in what sense is it data
21:58:36 <shachaf> i mean that the least and greatest fixed points are equal
21:59:02 <shachaf> so you can "fold codata" which doesn't terminate, i guess?
22:04:12 <rdococ> but it still feels like rejecting f x = ... f x ... is arbitrary. is there a way to make it feel "non-arbitrary"?
22:04:36 <kmc> I don't know what you mean by arbitrary
22:04:39 <kmc> it proves termination
22:04:45 <kmc> obviously, f x = f x would not terminate
22:04:57 <kmc> x has to change at each step and it needs to change in a way that the implementation can verify
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22:05:05 <kmc> so the most straightforward rule is that it has to "shrink" in some sense
22:05:14 <kmc> a number counting down to zero, or a tree shrinking
22:05:19 <kmc> (which are actually the same if you use peano numbers)
22:05:32 <rdococ> is there a syntax that would enforce this rule without requiring explicit verification?
22:05:54 <kmc> it already feels pretty syntactic to me
22:06:21 <kmc> perhaps you could designate the recursive call at the site of the formal parameter
22:06:29 <kmc> f (Cons @x) = ... recurse ...
22:06:47 <kmc> meaning f (Cons x) = ... f x ...
22:06:54 <kmc> 'recurse' keyword means 'call self with arguments designated by @'
22:07:00 <kmc> seems awkward and pointless though
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22:07:09 <kmc> you could also add an implicit counter to *every* function
22:07:31 <shachaf> I kind of wish recursion depth was bounded in a language like C.
22:07:42 <kmc> there are verification tools which can enforce that
22:07:45 <kmc> for embedded systems
22:07:45 <shachaf> So you could know the maximum stack size statically.
22:07:49 <kmc> you can prove-- yeah, that
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22:08:05 <shachaf> I also want to be able to use this value at compile-time to allocate "stacks" of the right size.
22:25:45 <shachaf> Golly. Instead of writing all this C code I should write a compiler for a language that's 50% better than C.
22:30:23 <zzo38> Possibly can be a superset of C with some additonal commands so that it can be compiled into a C code, could be one possibility to do.
22:31:02 <zzo38> (However, such thing would presumably need to be inserted after the preprocessor; I am not sure how to insert extra steps after the preprocessor in GCC)
22:32:07 <shachaf> I don't see enough of a benefit to C compatibility.
22:33:30 <zzo38> Mainly it seem to me that it might be easier to write without missing stuff in such a case, but maybe not. If you are managing to make all of the stuff by yourself though, then a C compatibility is not needed; you can compile it directly to LLVM or whatever
22:34:05 <shachaf> Or maybe I should use Zig. I guess it's the best candidate right now.
22:44:54 <kmc> what's zig like
22:45:14 <shachaf> https://ziglang.org/documentation/master/
22:45:26 <kmc> I don't need to read a document
22:45:26 <shachaf> they seem to have pretty reasonable taste?
22:45:41 <shachaf> but often i look at some individual thing and it seems reasonable
22:45:43 <kmc> how's it compare to rust
22:50:56 <zzo38> I thought before of making something too, which exposes all features of LLVM (including @llvm.compiler.used), some of which would be done in system-dependent include files, and also powerful macros.
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23:08:35 <zzo38> Some things in LLVM is good such as, you can use the carry of an addition, and you can specify various kind of metadata for use with optimization and other stuff, and exception handling, and bit manipulation, and appending linkage (which unfortunately is only usable for some special variables), etc.
23:10:07 <zzo38> But also some things isn't very good, such as there is no version of @llvm.experimental.widenable.condition() for types other than i1. (Also, for use appending linkage and some other features, one thing to do could be to support a ".llvmo" file format, which you can combine into one ".o" file.)
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23:19:58 <shachaf> kmc: what language should i use
23:20:16 <kmc> don't know don't care
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00:01:25 <zzo38> kmc: There is ways to force a maximum stack size, such as what I did in Free Hero Mesh (there is a user setting for the maximum stack size and the direction of the stack, and then any recursive functions will check that limit, and functions that are not recursive do not check the stack size).
00:10:19 <shachaf> gcc has a flag to give you stack size information
00:10:43 <shachaf> But I want to statically check the depth in every case.
00:10:54 <shachaf> Maybe I should just ban recursive functions.
00:11:02 <shachaf> What are they good for, anyway?
00:11:33 <zzo38> There is many thing that it is good for, I think, although also there is many cases where it is better to not use it.
00:11:35 <shachaf> I guess some code is much easier to write with recursion but it tends to be rare.
00:12:13 <shachaf> I suppose "trees" is pretty broad.
00:12:40 <kmc> often it's easiest to write with recursion, but you end up doing it another way for some reason or another
00:12:46 <kmc> of course in many cases that just means reifying the stack
00:12:50 <kmc> and you will have the same issues
00:14:31 <shachaf> but more control over what to do
00:14:55 <kmc> but it won't magically give you a bound on space
00:15:14 <zzo38> I think the best way to design it is, you have enough ropes to hang yourself, and also a few more just in case
00:15:45 <kmc> i want to add that to the quote db but I don't remember how
00:15:46 <shachaf> I mean, you can just check the bound instead of getting a stack overflow.
00:16:04 <shachaf> You can allocate your reified stack in a difference place from "the stack"
00:17:42 <kmc> yes, that is one advantage
00:17:46 <kmc> it can grow and move on its own
00:17:55 <kmc> and it's easier to check, yes
00:18:01 <kmc> stack overflow is usually one of the worst handled error conditions
00:20:08 <zzo38> Did you look how it is implemented in Free Hero Mesh, if you think the handling of stack overflow is reasonable?
00:21:03 <zzo38> (it is only implemented if __GNUC__ is defined, and if it is enabled at runtime; otherwise stack overflow is not checked)
00:22:16 <shachaf> Also you might have a very small stack because you're doing some (stack-switching) coroutine thing.
00:22:52 <shachaf> Or you could want to do a non-stack-switching coroutine thing where you effectively reify part of the stack.
00:22:57 <shachaf> Where you is the compiler.
00:23:08 <shachaf> I didn't look at Free Hero Mesh.
00:25:37 <zzo38> Currently, the stack protection is only checked in the execute_program() function (in exec.c); later if other recursive functions are added then those also might do, such as the function to move an object in a direction (due to objects pushing each other, this call is going to be recursive). The definition of execute_program() starts with: if(StackProtection()) Throw("Call stack overflow");
00:26:27 <zzo38> where Throw is a macro defined in exec.c (which writes the address of the string literal to a global variable, and then calls longjmp()), and StackProtection is a macro defined in heromesh.h
00:39:17 <esowiki> [[Examinable Invocation Vector]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62350 * Hakerh400 * (+3843) Examinable Invocation Vector
00:40:44 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62351&oldid=62022 * Hakerh400 * (+35) Added EIV to the language list
00:44:09 <shachaf> Man, trees are kind of scow for caches.
00:44:35 <shachaf> What's an ordered set/map data structure that's cache-friendly?
00:49:06 <zzo38> Is there something like OpenID over SASL, that does not require a web browser or any other implementation other than SASL?
01:14:07 <esowiki> [[Thue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62352&oldid=60452 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+296) /* Sample programs */
01:20:19 <esowiki> [[Thue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62353&oldid=62352 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+65) /* Sample programs */
01:23:06 <esowiki> [[Thue]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62354&oldid=62353 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (-1) /* Sample programs */
01:24:14 <esowiki> [[Thue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62355&oldid=62354 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+0) /* Sample programs */
01:25:23 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62356&oldid=62337 * A * (-245) /* History or Etymology */
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01:37:35 <weston> !zjoust Sookie ->+>+[+][[---][+]]<+[+]+[-][+[-]]+++++>-[+][+[+][+[+][>]>>-]]<[->[->>>>>>>>>++[-]>++[-]>>++[<]>>[-]>++[-]>++[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[+]->[-]][]<[+++++<->>--<<+++.++>>-<++[>[.+][+[-.][--]->+++]++>--<]<[+]]>>]<[[+][+]>]+[>[>>>>>>>>>[-]>[+]>[++++]]>>>+]
01:38:13 <zemhill_______> weston.Sookie: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47 (-46)
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01:40:32 <westonian> !zjoust Sookie ->+>+[+][[---][+]]<+[+]+[-][+[-]]+++++>-[+][+[+][+[+][>]>>-]]<[->[->>>>>>>>>++[-]>++[-]>>++[<]>>[-]>++[-]>++[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[+]->[-]][]<[+++++<->>--<<+++.++>>-<++[>[.+][+[-.][--]->+++]++>--<]<[+]]>>]<[[+][+]>]+[>[>>>>>>>>>[-]>[+]>[++++]]>>>+]
01:40:32 <zemhill_______> westonian.Sookie: points 9.60, score 53.37, rank 1/47 (+2)
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01:48:03 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62357&oldid=62213 * A * (+51) /* Impossible */
01:57:43 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62358&oldid=62356 * A * (+11) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */
01:58:01 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62359&oldid=62358 * A * (+11) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */
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02:19:34 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62360&oldid=62359 * A * (+4) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */
03:00:08 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62361&oldid=62357 * A * (+177) /* Swapping two values */
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03:45:45 <esowiki> [[Turing Machine But Way Worse]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62362&oldid=62258 * RealUndefined * (+155) turing-complete
03:47:14 <esowiki> [[Turing Machine But Way Worse]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62363&oldid=62362 * RealUndefined * (+0)
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04:18:26 <esowiki> [[Turing Machine But Way Worse]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62364&oldid=62363 * RealUndefined * (+16) redirect in abbreviation added
04:18:35 <esowiki> [[Turing Machine But Way Worse]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62365&oldid=62364 * RealUndefined * (+4) Redirected page to [[TMBWW]]
04:18:48 <esowiki> [[Turing Machine But Way Worse]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62366&oldid=62365 * RealUndefined * (-20) nope.
04:21:36 <esowiki> [[TMBWW]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62367 * RealUndefined * (+42) Add redirect
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04:40:39 <esowiki> [[Bit~]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62368 * RealUndefined * (+969) Created page with "{{lowercase}} ''Note: This is still a work-in-progress.'' '''bit~''' is a language made by [[User:RealUndefined]], in May 2019. It is a cell-based language that uses bits to..."
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04:42:07 <esowiki> [[Bit~]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62369&oldid=62368 * RealUndefined * (+24)
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06:33:10 <esowiki> [[Shark]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62370&oldid=62349 * Madk * (+5) Use clearer terminoloy
06:38:45 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62371&oldid=62351 * Madk * (+12) /* S */ Add shark to list
07:14:16 <zzo38> Make some Magic: the Gathering cards that are world, and that in addition to continuous effects will also have a death trigger. In addition to global enchantments, other permanent types are also possible.
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09:14:30 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62372&oldid=60568 * Hakerh400 * (+35) /* Programming languages we created */
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10:17:20 <esowiki> [[Examinable Invocation Vector]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62373&oldid=62350 * Hakerh400 * (+703) /* Examples */
10:18:15 <esowiki> [[Examinable Invocation Vector]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62374&oldid=62373 * Hakerh400 * (+37) /* Reversing bits */
10:31:14 <esowiki> [[Examinable Invocation Vector]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62375&oldid=62374 * Hakerh400 * (+3) /* Repeat the first character three times */
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12:07:05 <esowiki> [[Shark]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62376&oldid=62370 * Madk * (-2) Fibonacci sequence starts with 0, 1 not 1, 1
12:27:23 <esowiki> [[Cd]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62377 * A * (+115) Created page with "[[Cd]] is an [[esoteric programming language]]. [[Category:2019]] [[Category:Languages]] [[Category:Unimplemented]]"
12:51:25 <esowiki> [[Cd]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62378&oldid=62377 * A * (+557)
13:05:23 <esowiki> [[User:TonyBrown148]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62379&oldid=61647 * TonyBrown148 * (+180)
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16:12:12 <zzo38> shachaf: Wizards of the Coast no longer makes cards using it (same with banding and many other stuff), but still it can be done by unofficial cards
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16:59:37 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62380&oldid=62360 * Helen * (+415) /* Impossible */ [[Bootstrap]] isn't impossible
17:05:26 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62381&oldid=62361 * Helen * (-889) /* Impossible */ Cleaned up; Removed bootstrapping comment; Removed some dumb stuff of mine; The pi comment is still valid; Unproven things go in [[bitch#Unproven|Unproven]]
17:05:54 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62382&oldid=62381 * Helen * (+116) /* Unproven */ Unproven things go in [[bitch#Unproven|Unproven]] #2
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19:08:51 <zzo38> I would want some stack switching support in JavaScript. (It can help with some things combining synchronous and asynchronous code, and has a few other uses.)
19:17:46 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62383&oldid=62380 * Helen * (+240) Added a notice at the top to not to delete things
19:28:18 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62384&oldid=62382 * Helen * (-24) /* Unproven */ Removed [[99 bottles of beer]] as that has been done
20:06:39 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62385&oldid=62384 * Salpynx * (-3) Correct memory system
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20:38:49 <esowiki> [[User talk:Sinthorion]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62386 * Camto * (+60) Created page with "Hello it's me. ~~~~"
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21:11:36 <esowiki> [[User:Cortex]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62387&oldid=60822 * Cortex * (+0) /* Print "Hello, World!QHQQHQ" */
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21:40:00 <shachaf> Bands With Other deprecated cards
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21:49:23 <zzo38> Then you will define "deprecated cards" properly (or just make Un-cards and don't care)
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00:14:00 <esowiki> [[1=0]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62388 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+1037) Created page with "'''1=0''' is a programming based on [[Forte]] made to mess up some of the peano axioms that [[Forte]] does not. ==Commands== In 1=0, the main action is to asign new values tu..."
00:15:10 <esowiki> [[1=0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62389&oldid=62388 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+0) /* Breaking the Peano Axioms */
00:23:29 <esowiki> [[1=0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62390&oldid=62389 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+152) /* Commands */
00:25:30 <esowiki> [[1=0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62391&oldid=62390 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+13)
00:48:03 <esowiki> [[1=0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62392&oldid=62391 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+228) /* Examples */
00:50:39 <esowiki> [[1=0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62393&oldid=62392 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+92) /* Commands */
00:51:04 <esowiki> [[1=0]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62394&oldid=62393 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+0) /* Calculator */
00:51:25 <esowiki> [[1=0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62395&oldid=62394 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+0) /* Calculator */
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00:54:00 <esowiki> [[1=0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62396&oldid=62395 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+52) /* Commands */
00:55:54 <esowiki> [[1=0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62397&oldid=62396 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+5) /* Cat */
00:56:43 <esowiki> [[1=0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62398&oldid=62397 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+17) /* Examples */
00:57:09 <esowiki> [[1=0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62399&oldid=62398 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+1) /* Num Cat */
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02:10:43 <zzo38> I am playing the "robots" game from the "bsdgames" package. Many similar games have been invented, with different features. This one has a "wait bonus".
02:11:24 <shachaf> Is it like robotfindskitten?
02:12:27 <zzo38> No, it is different. You can move and opponents will chase you but if opponents run into each other they are both destroyed, leaving a wall, and if they walk into a wall they are destroyed, and if they walk into you then you lose. You can also teleport at random.
02:16:06 <zzo38> I remember I once made something similar, with many new kind of objects that can appear on the screen, such as items that you can pick up and use later, items that must be used immediately when touched, extra lives, extra points, objects that give extra points only if opponents touch them, duplicators, etc. In my implementation you could not pass your turn.
02:16:48 <zzo38> If opponent walks into you then you lose (or if you walk into an opponent; the BSD version prevents you from walking into an opponent though)
02:17:57 <shachaf> Is it only when you teleport at random and happen to land next to an opponent?
02:18:47 <zzo38> In the BSD version, yes. However, in many other implementations, it can also happen if you push the wrong direction by mistake.
02:20:11 <zzo38> I managed to get 3173 points
02:20:27 <shachaf> I managed to get 30 points
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03:28:36 <Sgeo__> Huh. Zillions of Games uses S-expressions to define games
03:35:06 <shachaf> almost as good as ∫-expressions
03:59:39 <zzo38> Some time on I think Friday, I described a idea of esolang. Did you read that?
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04:03:05 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62400&oldid=62383 * A * (+195) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */
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04:16:36 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62401&oldid=62400 * A * (+4) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */
04:19:41 <Sgeo__> http://objects.activeworlds.com/aw/sounds/cojazz1.zip
04:20:08 <Sgeo__> What is the cofunction of jazz?
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11:20:15 <esowiki> [[RarVM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62402&oldid=61889 * Void * (+107) /* Language overview */
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12:10:28 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62403&oldid=62401 * A * (+231) Clarify
12:21:15 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62404&oldid=62403 * A * (+2631) /* Incapability of bitch implementing Popular problems */
12:22:38 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62405&oldid=62404 * A * (+71) /* Deadfish interpreter */
12:25:15 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62406&oldid=62405 * A * (+63) /* Deadfish interpreter */
12:41:01 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62407&oldid=62406 * A * (-595) /* Deadfish interpreter */
12:41:47 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62408&oldid=62407 * A * (-199) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */
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13:00:14 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62409&oldid=62408 * A * (+704) /* Deadfish interpreter */
13:00:42 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62410&oldid=62385 * A * (+589) /* Possible with adjustments */
13:01:02 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62411&oldid=62409 * A * (-704)
13:01:22 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62412&oldid=62410 * A * (-16) I've implemented the Mandelbrot set.
13:02:06 <esowiki> [[Popular problem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62413&oldid=62097 * A * (+4) I want to edit Mandelbrot set
13:03:20 <esowiki> [[Mandelbrot set]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62414 * A * (+255) Created page with "This [[popular problem]] requires outputting the Mandelbrot fractal, usually in ASCII pseudographics. ==External links== [http://people.sc.fsu.edu/~jburkardt/c_src/mandelbrot_..."
13:04:55 <esowiki> [[Mandelbrot set]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62415&oldid=62414 * A * (+213) /* External links */
13:05:43 <esowiki> [[Mandelbrot set]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62416&oldid=62415 * A * (+3500)
13:06:38 <esowiki> [[Mandelbrot set]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62417&oldid=62416 * A * (+409) Modify example output to make it look a lot cleaner
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13:10:23 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62418&oldid=62412 * A * (+4) Link
13:11:01 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62419&oldid=62418 * A * (+0) Oops
14:13:15 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62420&oldid=62419 * A * (+235) /* Mandelbrot set */
14:15:49 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62421&oldid=62420 * A * (+1) /* Popular Problem solutions in bitch */
14:16:25 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62422&oldid=62421 * A * (+0) What!?
14:19:59 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62423&oldid=62422 * A * (-60) /* Fibonacci sequence */
14:25:07 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62424&oldid=62411 * A * (-766) They're trivial now, as they are already proven.
14:25:26 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62425&oldid=62424 * A * (-17) Move up a section
14:33:11 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62426&oldid=62425 * A * (-29) /* Incapability of bitch implementing Popular problems */
14:33:34 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62427&oldid=62426 * A * (-349) /* Incapability of bitch implementing Popular problems */
14:55:18 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62428&oldid=62423 * Int-e * (+408) /* ROT13 */ shorter version
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17:20:27 <esowiki> [[Y/N]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62429&oldid=58533 * HereToAnnoy * (+1) Fixed not-matching <code></code>
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19:07:53 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62430&oldid=62277 * Unlimiter * (-9)
19:15:33 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62431&oldid=62430 * Unlimiter * (+5)
19:21:46 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62432&oldid=62431 * Unlimiter * (+109)
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21:35:12 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62433&oldid=62432 * Unlimiter * (+598)
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21:38:50 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62434&oldid=62433 * Unlimiter * (+304)
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21:49:01 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62435&oldid=62434 * Unlimiter * (+354)
21:49:50 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62436&oldid=62435 * Unlimiter * (-90)
21:53:39 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62437&oldid=62436 * Unlimiter * (+236)
21:53:55 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62438&oldid=62437 * Unlimiter * (+0) /* Hello World */
21:59:21 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62439&oldid=62438 * Unlimiter * (+31)
22:00:25 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62440&oldid=62439 * Unlimiter * (+18)
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22:01:13 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62441&oldid=62440 * Unlimiter * (-18)
22:01:19 <esowiki> [[Point]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62442 * Unlimiter * (+3956) Created page with "==Point== {{infobox proglang |name=Point |paradigms=imperative |author=[[Unlimiter]] |year=[[:Category:2019|2019]] |memsys=stack-based |class=:Category:Turing complete|Turin..."
22:01:51 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62443&oldid=62441 * Unlimiter * (-84) /* Overview */
22:02:24 <esowiki> [[Point]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62444&oldid=62442 * Unlimiter * (-84)
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22:04:39 <esowiki> [[Point]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62445&oldid=62444 * Unlimiter * (-8)
22:05:47 <esowiki> [[Point]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62446&oldid=62445 * Unlimiter * (+1)
22:07:22 <esowiki> [[Point]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62447&oldid=62446 * Unlimiter * (-1) /* Hello World */
22:14:10 <esowiki> [[Point]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62448&oldid=62447 * Unlimiter * (+5) /* In-depth */
22:14:55 <esowiki> [[Point]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62449&oldid=62448 * Unlimiter * (+8) /* In-depth */
22:15:17 <esowiki> [[Point]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62450&oldid=62449 * Unlimiter * (-1) /* In-depth */
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22:17:52 <esowiki> [[Point]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62451&oldid=62450 * Unlimiter * (+60) /* In-depth */
22:19:22 <esowiki> [[Point]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62452&oldid=62451 * Unlimiter * (+78) /* Hello World */
22:19:46 <esowiki> [[Point]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62453&oldid=62452 * Unlimiter * (+13) /* Hello World */
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22:22:38 <HackEso> smlist 500: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale
23:27:09 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62454&oldid=62427 * Salpynx * (+981) /* Not TC Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */ thank you reply to Helen's example.
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23:44:27 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62455&oldid=62454 * Salpynx * (+440) /* Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */ clarify that my overly-strong claim is very much disproven - happy outcome!
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00:20:03 <esowiki> [[1=0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62456&oldid=62399 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+136)
00:20:23 <esowiki> [[1=0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62457&oldid=62456 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+1)
00:24:11 <esowiki> [[1=0]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62458&oldid=62457 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+8) /* Calculator */
00:26:01 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62459&oldid=62371 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+10) /* Non-alphabetic */
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00:50:17 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * A stone arachnid * New user account
00:54:31 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62460&oldid=62288 * A stone arachnid * (+229)
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01:24:33 <esowiki> [[Queue]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62461&oldid=45263 * A stone arachnid * (+2) /* See Also */ Added bullets
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02:25:29 <lambdabot> fizzie said 4d 4h 47m 23s ago: We're hoping for your song to win.
02:25:47 <oerjan> i haven't been following eurovision at all, just barely noticed it was over
02:26:08 * oerjan is still busy archive binging schlock mercenary
02:28:45 <oerjan> <shachaf> excessive information <-- definitely scow
02:38:18 * oerjan hasn't been here for a week, and is probably going to ignore what's happened on the wiki unless there's something really interesting
02:38:26 <oerjan> of course i ignore a lot anyway
02:55:12 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62462&oldid=62428 * Salpynx * (+135) move bounded bf interpreter to popular problems section
02:57:39 <oerjan> `` allquotes | tail -2
02:57:40 <HackEso> 1332) <ais523_> ugh, now my Fugue hello world has got stuck in my head again \ 1333) <shachaf> #define __NR_oldolduname 59 <olsner> fungot: what's your old old name? <fungot> olsner: they decided not to waste any brain cells storing obscure unix silliness).
03:05:41 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62463&oldid=62462 * Salpynx * (+67) /* Possible with adjustments */ being picky, but [.+*#] != Mandelbrot Set
03:07:43 <esowiki> [[Mandelbrot set]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62464&oldid=62417 * Salpynx * (+8) emphasise the value of the popular problem
03:31:40 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62465&oldid=62463 * Salpynx * (+667) /* Computational class */ summary as I see it. Don't know if this "simulating-arbitrary-sized BSMs" is a distinct class, but it seems interesting.
03:34:29 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62466&oldid=62465 * Salpynx * (-1691) being bold and removing inaccurate and unhelpful sections which enumerate 'impossible' solutions that have concrete implementations on the very same page
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04:14:50 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62467&oldid=62466 * A * (+243) 2 nested loops are sufficient for Turing-completeness.
04:15:10 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62468&oldid=62467 * A * (-2) /* Bounded-storage machine: brainfuck interpreter */
04:16:34 <shachaf> oerjan: Excessive information?
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04:31:36 <zzo38> Somewhere they mention you cannot use CAPTCHA with NNTP. Actually, if a SASL mechanism for CAPTCHA is implemented, then it is possible to use with NNTP and with any other protocol that supports SASL. The challenge consists of arbitrary ASCII text that explains what kind of response is needed. The response also must be ASCII text, and does not require the use of a web-browser or other protocols.
04:32:48 <zzo38> (It is OK if it asks a question to which a web-browser can be used to find the answer e.g. from Wikipedia, in case for example you do not know what year some famous person was born or whatever.)
04:47:53 <shachaf> Oh, I remember the context
05:26:43 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62469&oldid=62468 * Salpynx * (-241) /* Bounded-storage machine: brainfuck interpreter */ undo: 63 loop limit refers to this specific bf implementation. This is a link description not a TC for/against
05:55:18 <zzo38> Now I wrote the document: http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/sasl-captcha Now you can use CAPTCHA with any protocol that supports SASL, and not be so terrible like reCAPTCHA.
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06:42:10 <zzo38> Someone told me the only program they need on Windows is a video editing software, and prefers Linux for everything else (although better video editing software is available on Macintosh, but the video editing software on Linux is no good). Do you have an advice?
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08:23:34 <Taneb> Someone's been working on some pretty neat-looking video editing software in Haskell, which I'd hope works on Linux, I think it's called Kompositor?
08:30:21 <shachaf> zzo38: Run the program inside WINE, or inside a virtual machine?
08:30:29 <shachaf> Or run Linux on top of Windows with WSL2.
08:31:39 <myname> video editing inside wine sounds like fun for every cpu
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10:40:33 <esowiki> [[Point]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62470&oldid=62453 * Unlimiter * (+61)
10:40:58 <esowiki> [[Point]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62471&oldid=62470 * Unlimiter * (-1)
10:41:06 <esowiki> [[Point]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62472&oldid=62471 * Unlimiter * (+1) /* Hello World */
11:06:27 <int-e> shachaf: C++ is so lovely: https://github.com/int-e/bitch/blob/master/cc/shifty.cc#L108-L123
11:06:57 <int-e> (Though maybe the underlying truth is that I have no shame.)
11:07:07 <esowiki> [[Point]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62473&oldid=62472 * Unlimiter * (+59)
11:07:55 <esowiki> [[Point]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62474&oldid=62473 * Unlimiter * (-1) /* Counting up */
11:08:35 <esowiki> [[Point]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62475&oldid=62474 * Unlimiter * (+67) /* Countdown */
11:09:29 <esowiki> [[Point]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62476&oldid=62475 * Unlimiter * (+54) /* Counting up */
11:11:59 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62477&oldid=62469 * A * (+6) An accumulator is not a memory system.
11:13:20 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62478&oldid=62477 * A * (+0) Because an accumulator is a data structure. Remove the ugly underline in the link.
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12:44:51 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62479&oldid=62478 * A * (+0) BFI requires character I/O.
12:49:28 <esowiki> [[NullScript 2]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62480 * A stone arachnid * (+2544) Created page with "'''NullScript 2''' is a esolang written by [[User:a stone arachnid|]] inspired by [[Deadfish~]] and [[bf]]. It stores data in a 256-cell prison, and has an 8-item FIFO paramet..."
13:24:51 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62481&oldid=62455 * Int-e * (+197) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */ mention another implementation
13:25:22 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62482&oldid=62481 * Int-e * (+0) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */ layout
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13:30:30 <esowiki> [[NullScript 2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62483&oldid=62480 * A * (+75) Nice.
13:35:58 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62484&oldid=62479 * Int-e * (+99) /* Computational class */ mention PDAs
13:51:37 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62485&oldid=62484 * Int-e * (+1903) /* Common Algorithms */ Sketch bounded storage (adapted from talk page)
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13:57:15 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62486&oldid=62485 * Int-e * (+46) /* Bounded storage */ tweak
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14:08:42 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62487&oldid=62486 * A * (+12) That extra section is too distinctive.
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14:13:36 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62488&oldid=62487 * Int-e * (+377) /* Subtraction */ present one unrolled operation
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14:22:16 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62489&oldid=62488 * Int-e * (+34) /* Implementation */ C++
14:23:13 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62490&oldid=62489 * A * (+40) /* Computational class */
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14:33:10 <rain1> Brian Kernighan interviews Ken Thompson
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15:54:15 <esowiki> [[Point]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62491&oldid=62476 * Unlimiter * (+0)
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17:26:41 <shachaf> int-e: What's unreasonable about that?
17:29:18 <int-e> that, and explicit destructor invocations.
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17:29:56 <int-e> but it seems to work
17:30:22 <int-e> even valgrind (memcheck) likes it
17:31:11 <int-e> I should try that google thing, what was it again... address sanitizer?
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17:33:54 <int-e> Right. Address sanitizers doesn't like that the final delete gets a different type than the initial new. Not unexpected :)
17:34:21 <shachaf> One good trick is to just use C and no destructors.
17:37:22 <kmc> is asan a google thing?
17:37:32 <kmc> destructors are tg
17:37:36 <kmc> raii 4 lyfe
17:40:40 <shachaf> doesn't raii just make it easier to write c++y code full of random allocations and other nonsense and get it right
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17:48:01 <shachaf> also if you have destructors they free your memory at program exit, which i hear is a squander
17:48:06 <int-e> so it seems that there's some stupid magic by which the destructor communicates the object size to the global delete operator
17:58:10 <kmc> doesn't seem that magic? because delete is templated
17:58:13 <kmc> or effectively so
17:58:19 <kmc> it knows the static type
17:58:29 <kmc> and also, objects with virtual stuff have the size in the vtable typically
17:58:36 <kmc> virtual destructors are important
17:59:12 <shachaf> Presumably the goal here to avoid having a vtable.
17:59:26 <int-e> yeah it's the operator delete() that needs tweaking to do the (shifty) thing I attempted.
18:00:45 <int-e> https://github.com/int-e/bitch/blob/master/cc/shifty.cc#L126-L141
18:01:17 <shachaf> imo you should get on the #define Case break; case bandwagon
18:02:22 <int-e> This is at least borderline insane though because operator delete has too many variants.
18:03:21 <int-e> shachaf: so how does that work with automatic indentation?
18:03:30 <int-e> syntax highlighting too
18:03:38 <shachaf> It works fine with my syntax highlighting.
18:03:48 <shachaf> Not sure about automatic indentation.
18:04:48 <int-e> and what's the story of operator delete and calling destructors, hmm.
18:06:38 <int-e> Okay, in a delete expression, the destructor is called first, then the operator delete.
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18:09:19 <shachaf> Why do you need to delete anything in that code, though?
18:10:23 <int-e> because I wanted an algebraic datatype.
18:11:06 <int-e> lit links to an mpz integer; bop links to a nested operation that needs to be cleaned up.
18:11:27 <shachaf> uh oh, you're overloading main
18:11:54 <shachaf> I guess that might be allowed.
18:17:26 <int-e> oh clang++ doesn't like this at all, it seems not to know about the sized version of ::operator delete...
18:18:02 <int-e> tbf that's a C++14 thing.
18:18:21 <shachaf> Is it an old version of clang?
18:18:28 <shachaf> Or maybe you need -std=c++14 or something.
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18:19:17 <int-e> hmm, yes, it's old.
18:26:44 <int-e> Whatever, let's pay the price for a vtable instead.
18:27:32 <shachaf> vtables are such a scow imo
18:27:51 <shachaf> why does c++ gotta do it like that
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18:27:58 <shachaf> Have you considered a union instead?
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18:28:15 <shachaf> I think it'd just be easier since you're already effectively emulating one.
18:29:15 <int-e> (with a union you typically allocate as much memory as required by the largest alternative)
18:30:44 <int-e> None of this is a huge deal... the code resulted from a desire to explore, not an actual requirement.
18:31:14 <int-e> If I wanted to save memory I'd do the parsing on the fly rather than building an AST.
18:31:45 <shachaf> Presumably the thing you want to save is cache, not memory.
18:31:59 <int-e> also, next time I go down this route I'll probably use the non-sized version of ::operator delete.
18:32:35 <int-e> again, for better locality I should parse on the fly. bitch syntax is so simple.
18:33:23 <shachaf> whoa, you're mixing /8 and &7
18:33:57 <int-e> Heh, I'm not really sure why.
18:34:29 <int-e> I know why I used /8, but I don't know why I didn't use %8.
18:34:38 <shachaf> I guess it's not v. confusing, it's pretty straightforward.
18:35:14 <int-e> (/8 is easier to relate to &7 than >>3 is)
18:39:40 <shachaf> Wait, so is this op thing just an AST?
18:39:59 <int-e> well the "T" is very much an overstatement
18:40:40 <int-e> hmm, I don't know what the "A" stands for there.
18:41:13 <int-e> Ah. I was thinking geometrically so I'd say "line", probably.
18:41:17 <shachaf> I guess mean I program, not op.
18:42:01 <int-e> program is a bunch of ops, so it's an abstract syntax comb.
18:42:15 <shachaf> Anyway you could allocate these things like cool people do, in an arena.
18:45:07 <shachaf> But I guess operating on the code directly like you said makes more sense.
18:45:17 <int-e> maybe another time
18:46:06 <int-e> (In principle I have some ideas for transforming the operations, but I won't explore that in C++. Also maybe I should stop spending time on bitch. :) )
18:46:26 <shachaf> I don't even know what this language is.
18:46:30 <int-e> TC-ness is still open, but that won't be solved by new interpreters :)
18:47:04 <shachaf> Did you ever say what int-e means?
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18:47:17 <int-e> https://esolangs.org/wiki/bitch ;-)
18:47:28 <shachaf> I've seen that link before.
18:47:31 <int-e> No, I don't think I ever did.
18:47:35 <shachaf> But I find the name unappealing so I don't click it.
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18:47:50 <int-e> Yeah the name is needlessly offensive.
18:48:12 <int-e> I think of it as bit-changer or something in that vicinity.
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21:04:34 <Hooloovo0> sorry about the join/part spam, not sure what znc did
21:05:40 <int-e> Hooloovo0 has quit [Excess Flood] <-- some disagreement on the acceptable rate limits :)
21:06:43 <int-e> Joining a million channels at once? I don't really have any good guess.
21:06:57 <Hooloovo0> oh, I guess that's why it was only freenode
21:08:28 <Hooloovo0> I guess it's never done that consistently enough that it mattered
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22:16:32 <shachaf> kmc: pg&e is telling me to be a prepper what do i do twh
22:17:06 <kmc> what did they say
22:17:16 <shachaf> "suggest customers prepare for outages that could last longer than 48 hours"
22:17:33 <shachaf> they don't give an upper bound so i assume they mean infinity
22:17:43 <kmc> you should be ready to live w/o power
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22:24:44 <b_jonas> hello, #esoteric. I'm back home from my vacation. it was great.
22:25:25 <HackEso> b_jonas: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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22:27:32 <b_jonas> has anything important happened here?
22:29:51 <arseniiv> hi all! Had somebody considered making a card deck based on a nontrivial combinatorial design? Like, relations between cards be inferred from the mathematical structure behind the deck design. Like, not some A × B (suits and ranks) or maybe A × B + C (Tarot) but something more intricate
22:30:10 <arseniiv> b_jonas: hello! It seems a lucky coincedence
22:30:40 <arseniiv> there’s an idea I have, but it’s not that bright
22:32:33 <arseniiv> I take a R-algebra for some finite ring R and… and there are either too many authomorphisms or too many elements (cards) or there’s too few elements
22:33:05 <b_jonas> arseniiv: cards, http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2015-07-15.2307.html and http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2015-07-22.2308.html and I think there's one more article by David Madore somewhere
22:33:43 <b_jonas> arseniiv: talks about the card game Dobble, also mentioning Set, but also new possibilities not realized by previously known card games
22:34:22 <HackEso> olist 1164: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
22:35:00 <b_jonas> an olist? was there another one while I was away?
22:38:51 <arseniiv> of course, authomorphisms aren’t necessary that bad: in chess, one faces 8 indistinguishable pawns and lives, and here it’s even more interesting. Let’s say we are in Z_3^3 acted by S_3 on coordinates, then there is of course an orbit (120, 102, 012, 210, 201, 021), but there are also smaller orbits, which could make us some semantic distinctions on cards of these orbits, and also we can in some cases act by A_3 only, *and* also th
22:38:51 <arseniiv> ere is anyway a distinction if we draw 130 then 301, or if we draw 130 then 310. Though I’m not sure as to how exactly one could harness all that, and also I’d like a bit more interesting design than this R-module or R-algebra one
22:39:20 <arseniiv> b_jonas: thanks, I’ll look at these! Hopefully they aren’t all in French :D
22:40:58 <arseniiv> oh okay they both are. Guess I’ll bother some frankophone friend nearby
22:43:48 <b_jonas> arseniiv: http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2004-07-26.0703.html is about Set, in English because it's old, but that's not the extra article I've mentioned
22:44:56 <arseniiv> b_jonas: hm even without translation it definitely looks very to the point, thank you once more. Have you been somewhat interested in this topic too, or do you just really have most David’s posts memorized? :D
22:45:14 <arseniiv> oh, I meant the previous about two former posts
22:46:04 <arseniiv> also maybe Set was what in the end influenced this in me, who knows
22:46:20 <b_jonas> arseniiv: also about dobble https://math.stackexchange.com/q/464932 and some other questions linked from there
22:46:51 <b_jonas> arseniiv: I don't have all his posts memorized, especially not because his blog is quite old now, and I haven't read all the articles from before I started reading them
22:47:07 <b_jonas> but in this case I just had to search for "Dobble" in the title index
22:47:29 <b_jonas> I also have bookmarks for some of the more useful articles on http://math.bme.hu/~ambrus/sc/grn
22:48:01 <b_jonas> no new post in a month is unusual by the way, in two more weeks I'll start to worry
22:48:24 <arseniiv> also I’d like, in a particular design, for each card to be related in some way differently to all others than any other one. I don’t think I understand how this should be formalized, for example it shouldn’t be a group action, that’s too strict
22:50:48 <arseniiv> anyway, it’s definitely a lucky coincidence. I even hadn’t thought to ask here initially
22:51:15 <arseniiv> though it’s a perfect place, if one to think about that
22:51:50 <b_jonas> and obviously you should look at all the traditional card sets that have cards in each combination of 8 or 13 or 14 ranks and 4 suits, plus perhaps a separate major arcana trump suit or jokers; there's also rare five-suit variants
22:52:10 <b_jonas> the number or ranks varies a lot, there are games played with just 6 ranks too
22:53:18 <b_jonas> what symmetry this has depends on the game played of course
22:55:16 <b_jonas> wow, two updates to bobadventures
22:55:22 <arseniiv> but usually there’s an ambient symmetry of suits, unbroken or almost unbroken
22:55:47 <arseniiv> so I’d look for something wild
22:57:28 <b_jonas> I wouldn't say that, because bridge is a popular game and it's very much not symmetric among suits
22:57:29 <arseniiv> one of the goals is to have a divination deck :D I don’t think I’d use it even in any story ideas, but it could be interesting to try to devise sufficiently logical semantics for each card based at what it does to others
22:57:59 <b_jonas> there are divination decks too, but you asked for ones with a nontrivial combinatorial design, and they don't have that
22:59:43 <b_jonas> http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20190514.html is that... a minifig of a warforged?
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00:19:44 <esowiki> [[NullScript 2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62492&oldid=62483 * A stone arachnid * (+55)
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00:55:28 <esowiki> [[NullScript 2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62493&oldid=62492 * A * (-45) Oops.
00:56:34 <esowiki> [[NullScript 2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62494&oldid=62493 * A * (+71)
00:59:08 <esowiki> [[Mandelbrot set]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62495&oldid=62464 * A * (+5)
00:59:52 <esowiki> [[Mandelbrot set]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62496&oldid=62495 * A * (-112) /* External links */
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01:08:36 <esowiki> [[History (programming language)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62497&oldid=61735 * A * (+39)
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01:45:31 <kmc> will trade hugs for hugs
01:47:55 <kmc> i have a headache and it's my fault too
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02:59:18 <shachaf> kmc: what kind of prepping should i do
03:01:13 <kmc> shachaf: https://www.cdph.ca.gov/Programs/EPO/Pages/PrepareanEmergencySupplyKit.aspx
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03:25:04 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62498&oldid=61684 * Truttle1 * (+72) Added Argh!
03:26:06 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62499&oldid=62498 * Truttle1 * (+3) Alphabetical Order...
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03:59:02 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62500&oldid=62490 * A * (-20) The description seems very wordy.
03:59:39 <kmc> Bitch-machine
04:06:27 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62501&oldid=62069 * A * (-25) Be objective
04:06:40 <esowiki> [[Malbolge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62502&oldid=58411 * Oerjan * (+58) People seem to still think Malbolge is only programmed by brute force search, so put something in the intro
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06:17:51 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62503&oldid=62500 * A * (-14) int-e has made two infinite-precision interpreters.
06:24:46 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62504&oldid=62503 * A * (+2) /* Possible with adjustments */
06:25:07 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62505&oldid=62504 * A * (-2) Oops, I typed Chinese
06:27:06 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62506&oldid=62505 * A * (-1)
06:38:41 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62507&oldid=62501 * A * (+17) /* List of candidates */
06:39:00 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62508&oldid=62507 * A * (+0) /* List of candidates */
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09:36:42 <wob_jonas> The ICFP contest 2019 is now announced. https://icfpcontest2019.github.io/
09:36:48 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: icfplist: not found
09:37:34 <wob_jonas> ICFP contest starts on 2019-06-21T10:00Z. That's less than a month from now.
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10:26:32 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62509&oldid=62482 * A * (+155) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */
10:30:35 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62510&oldid=62509 * A * (+227) /* Incapability of bitch implementing Popular problems */
11:09:33 <wob_jonas> I'm missing good hungarian food though. I should eat something tomatoey with sweet spices
11:12:23 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62511&oldid=62506 * Int-e * (+0) /* Possible with adjustments */ \ is for input and / is for output...
11:17:35 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62512&oldid=62510 * Int-e * (+249) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */ no
11:20:06 <int-e> wob_jonas: who has time for that!
12:57:08 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62513&oldid=62512 * A * (+149) /* Incapability of bitch implementing Popular problems */
12:57:42 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62514&oldid=62513 * A * (+130) /* Incapability of bitch implementing Popular problems */
13:04:32 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62515&oldid=62514 * A * (+455) /*Sketch: A RAM Machine*/ : Wow, the macro replacements can act as variables!
13:04:52 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62516&oldid=62515 * A * (+4) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */ : Indentation
13:05:04 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62517&oldid=62516 * A * (-2) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */
13:13:04 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62518&oldid=62517 * A * (+118) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */
13:41:53 <esowiki> [[Works in progress]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62519&oldid=62202 * A * (-9) Abandoned languages are not WIP's
13:43:45 <esowiki> [[BF instruction minimalization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62520&oldid=61708 * A * (-2) /* News */
13:44:26 <esowiki> [[BF instruction minimalization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62521&oldid=62520 * A * (-1) /* A's attempts */
13:45:37 <esowiki> [[BF instruction minimalization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62522&oldid=62521 * A * (-6) /* A's attempts */ : I seemed to be overreacting throughout the proof...
13:45:54 <esowiki> [[BF instruction minimalization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62523&oldid=62522 * A * (-353) /* News */ : I think that is trivial
13:49:40 <esowiki> [[BF instruction minimalization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62524&oldid=62523 * A * (-1431) /* A's attempts */
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13:57:08 <esowiki> [[BF instruction minimalization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62525&oldid=62524 * A * (+1431) Undo revision 62524 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]])
13:58:14 <esowiki> [[BF instruction minimalization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62526&oldid=62525 * A * (-175) /* First */
14:02:14 <esowiki> [[BF instruction minimalization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62527&oldid=62526 * A * (-1256) /* A's attempts */ A one-instruction minimalization seems trivial.
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14:07:45 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62528&oldid=62499 * A * (-33) /* Bit Stupid */
14:09:43 <unlimiter> https:esolangs.org/wiki/Point <- new esolang
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21:57:15 <HackEso> Tanebventions include necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, metar, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, Italian, the grace period, the limerick, ruin, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths or tanebventions: foods. He never invents anything involving sex.
21:57:59 <shachaf> `slwd tanebvention//s/sanity,/& the hug,/
21:58:01 <HackEso> tanebvention//Tanebventions include necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, metar, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, the hug, Italian, the grace period, the limerick, ruin, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths or tanebventions: foods. He never invents anything involving sex.
21:59:06 <HackEso> The grace period was invented by Taneb to give him more time to invent the Oxford comma, but he ran out anyway.
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08:01:13 <Taneb> Ah, I seem to have invented something new
08:01:56 <Taneb> Although no-one knows what it is
08:08:12 <shachaf> Or at least HackEso doesn't.
08:27:58 <int-e> . o O ( hug? ¯\_/¯\(°_o)/¯\_/¯ )
08:31:47 <int-e> `learn hug? ¯\_/¯\(°_o)/¯\_/¯
08:31:49 <HackEso> Learned 'hug': hug? ¯\_/¯\(°_o)/¯\_/¯
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12:09:26 <fizzie> Are those tentacle arms?
12:11:10 <int-e> I haven't made up my mind about that.
12:12:01 <fizzie> Guess such would be good for hugging, fair enough.
12:12:18 <int-e> The arems are clearly floppy. But beyond that I wasn't sure :)
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13:43:10 <adu> I can't see it
13:43:48 <adu> to me it looks like ¯\([ZERO_WIDTH_SPACE])/¯
13:55:17 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62529&oldid=62161 * A * (+63)
13:55:42 <esowiki> [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62530&oldid=62304 * A * (-503) Replaced content with "{{lowercase}}"
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16:10:09 <esowiki> [[User:Odog8]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62531 * Odog8 * (+132) Created page with "I'm a coding PrOfEsSiOnAl learning Befunge, and making a Turing-complete two-command esolang. I also resuscitate dead esolang pages."
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16:28:27 <Taneb> Abd doesn't seem to believe in previewing edits
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18:15:42 <int-e> (I have trouble with previewing as well though... usually I try to get the content straight, and then find minor things to touch up afterwards. So more often than not I have 2 edits in a row.)
18:17:21 <b_jonas> I often have more than two
18:18:42 <int-e> . o O ( `learn "yesp" is a portmonteau of "yes" and "yep". -- too unoriginal but that typo confused me :) )
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19:15:49 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Traveller * New user account
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19:22:59 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62532&oldid=62460 * Traveller * (+106)
19:23:59 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62533&oldid=62532 * Traveller * (+80)
19:35:33 <j-bot> b_jonas: ┌─────────┬────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┐
19:35:33 <j-bot> b_jonas: │4.29497e9│1.0156e14 7.88156e13 6.0717e13 4.64115e13 3.51844e13 2.64396e13 1.9683e13 1.45071e13│
19:35:33 <j-bot> b_jonas: └─────────┴────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘
19:35:46 <j-bot> b_jonas: ┌──────────┬────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┐
19:35:46 <j-bot> b_jonas: │1.84467e19│1.0156e14 7.88156e13 6.0717e13 4.64115e13 3.51844e13 2.64396e13 1.9683e13 1.45071e13│
19:35:57 <j-bot> b_jonas: └──────────┴────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘
19:36:05 <j-bot> b_jonas: 1.75922e13
19:36:20 <b_jonas> just some powers and stuff
19:48:19 <HackEso> Char is a prominent component of charcoal.
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19:52:54 <Cale> . o O ( `learn Charizard is a prominent component of charcoalizard. )
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20:08:11 <esowiki> [[Hello]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62534&oldid=57780 * Traveller * (+813)
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20:53:30 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62535&oldid=62518 * Int-e * (+3994) /* Sketch: A Turing Machine */ new section
20:54:22 <int-e> Finally that's settled (for me, at least). No clue why it took so long, it's one of these things that are obvious in retrospect.
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20:55:57 <int-e> Cale: Is that from 1001 Nights?
20:57:40 <int-e> (I have no clue how Scheherazade is pronounced, or spelled for that matter.)
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21:01:40 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62536&oldid=62535 * Int-e * (+1) /* Sketch: A Turing Machine */ typo (there's always a typo)
21:14:12 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62537&oldid=62536 * Int-e * (+14) /* Sketch: A Turing Machine */ fix move of tape head
21:14:25 <b_jonas> int-e: I think ti's just a reaction to wisdom/char
21:17:17 <int-e> b_jonas: obviously
21:17:41 <int-e> b_jonas: but why stop there?
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21:54:32 <rain1> https://twitter.com/Robinson_Nox/status/1131314949370851329 do you like this?
21:56:39 <int-e> shachaf's the expert on dylt.
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21:58:34 <int-e> the lonely baba is cute
21:58:54 <shachaf> $ grep -i 'do you like this' * | awk '{print $2}' | sort | uniq -c | sort -rn
21:59:17 <int-e> hmm you have a point
21:59:36 <int-e> you're merely an apprentice by that standard :)
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01:59:33 <esowiki> [[User:DMC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62538&oldid=61124 * DMC * (-335)
02:15:05 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62539&oldid=62443 * DMC * (-3872) Blanked the page
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04:10:29 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Spammer attacks * New user account
04:11:07 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62540&oldid=62533 * Spammer attacks * (+106) /* Introductions */
04:27:58 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62541&oldid=62539 * Spammer attacks * (+104) You see, now I can edit the sandbox. This user detection process does not prevent spammer attacks. (Moderators: you can block me if you want to.)
04:28:09 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62542&oldid=62541 * Spammer attacks * (-104) Blanked the page
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04:30:39 <Guest23246> The esolangs.org wiki does not prevent spammer attacks. See what I just did!
04:31:00 <Guest23246> (Note: You can block me if you want to.)
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09:07:29 <wob_jonas> with the euparl elections coming up, can my hon. and learned friend fungot summarize the campaign positions of the parties? why should I give my vote to the green-red party?
09:07:29 <fungot> wob_jonas: he's somebody else too
09:07:45 <wob_jonas> uh... that's not enough of a reason really
09:08:11 <wob_jonas> my hon. and learned friend fungot, do they have any specific promises besides not being the orange party?
09:08:11 <fungot> wob_jonas: r2q2 annotated 2343 with " sum-of-squares" at http://paste.lisp.org/ display/ fnord? yes... unicode enabled? possibly... i'll do that
09:08:26 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
09:08:34 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
09:08:46 <wob_jonas> with the euparl elections coming up, can my hon. and learned friend fungot summarize the campaign positions of the parties? why should I give my vote to the green-red party?
09:08:47 <fungot> wob_jonas: mr president, in september, during the codecision procedure.
09:09:25 <wob_jonas> my hon. and learned fungot, I understand that you find the codecision procedure is important, but what side will the red-green party represent there?
09:09:26 <fungot> wob_jonas: mr president, before leaving for strasbourg from bergamo airport, i met a gmo who said to me: ' my dream is that all governments, we might also consider comitology. however that is not the commission's approach. so let us get some credit for our support and fully concur with what mr van den bos document is put to the vote.
09:10:10 <wob_jonas> ok, that's slightly more concrete. so you fully support mr van den bos's proposal
09:10:55 <wob_jonas> maybe you're more articulate when representing the other side. can my hon. and learned friend fungot summarize what the campaign of the orange party centers around? why should I give my votes to them?
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10:19:21 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62543&oldid=62537 * A * (+132) /* Sketch: A Turing Machine */
10:51:03 <wob_jonas> what's the setsockopt option to modify the evil bit in outgoing messages for ip sockets? I can't find it in http://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man7/ip.7.html
11:09:33 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62544&oldid=62543 * A * (+94) /* Sketch: A Turing Machine */
11:10:07 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62545&oldid=62544 * A * (+1) /* Sketch: A Turing Machine */
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12:00:40 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62546&oldid=62545 * Int-e * (+539) /* Sketch: A Turing Machine */ tweaks in reply to A
12:39:19 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62547&oldid=62546 * A * (-2171) /* Deadfish interpreter */
12:39:40 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62548&oldid=62547 * A * (-613) /* Incapability of bitch implementing Popular problems */
12:39:51 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62549&oldid=62548 * A * (-122) /* Incapability of bitch implementing Popular problems */
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12:46:42 <esowiki> [[Finite looping automaton]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62550 * A * (+137) Created page with "[[Finite looping automaton]] is an [[esoteric programming language]]. [[Category:Languages]] [[Category:2019]] [[Category:Unimplemented]]"
12:47:56 <esowiki> [[Finite looping automaton]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62551&oldid=62550 * A * (+63)
12:49:48 <esowiki> [[Finite looping automaton]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62552&oldid=62551 * A * (+278)
12:51:27 <esowiki> [[Finite looping automaton]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62553&oldid=62552 * A * (+98)
12:58:28 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62554&oldid=62549 * Int-e * (+48) /* Sketch: A Turing Machine */ add user name (how did that happen...)
13:02:52 <esowiki> [[Finite looping automaton]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62555&oldid=62553 * A * (+366)
13:05:38 <esowiki> [[Finite looping automaton]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62556&oldid=62555 * A * (+95)
13:05:48 <esowiki> [[Finite looping automaton]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62557&oldid=62556 * A * (+0) /* Infinte loop */
13:05:55 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/block]] block * Ais523 * blocked [[User:Spammer attacks]] with an expiration time of indefinite (account creation disabled, autoblock disabled): "bad-hand" sockpuppeting, i.e. creating a new account to disrupt to make a point; please stick to your main account
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13:09:49 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62558&oldid=62529 * Ais523 * (+843) /* Please do not create alternate accounts to make a point */ new section
13:19:44 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Help]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62559&oldid=57670 * A * (+502) Based on research, add an alternate account section.
13:22:49 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Help]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62560&oldid=62559 * A * (-503) Nope, it does not belong here.
13:23:08 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Policy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62561&oldid=46490 * A * (+357)
13:25:07 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62562&oldid=56960 * A * (+163) /* Looks like */
13:26:08 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62563&oldid=62562 * A * (+85) /* BSM */
13:39:03 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Policy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62564&oldid=62561 * Ais523 * (-163) /* Policy summary */ if we're putting this here (although it's kind-of obvious), let's make this a bit more policy-like; it may be better off just deleted though
13:41:26 <rain1> who remembers User:Spammer attacks
13:45:40 <int-e> rain1: it was a short-lived account
13:46:36 <int-e> 06:10:29 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Spammer attacks * New user account
13:46:39 <int-e> 15:05:55 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/block]] block * Ais523 * blocked [[User:Spammer attacks]] [...]
13:48:32 <int-e> (And it was used to make the rather obvious point that a spammer can in principle easily overcome the new user introduction check, completely missing the point.)
13:49:08 <int-e> (Which is that this actually does, for the time being, keep most spammers at bay.)
13:53:00 <myname> there is no protection against a directed attack
13:54:08 <int-e> Yeah but wiki spam generally isn't targeted. You scan the internet for Mediawikis and go through a create-account-then-create-a-garbage-page procedure, and move on.
13:56:15 <wob_jonas> at least not on small wikis. large wikis like en.wikipedia are targeted specifically.
13:56:25 <int-e> As long as that works for a large enough proportion of the wikis you find... you won't spend any more effort than that. If it stops working you'll start looking for common countermeasures, like easy captchas.
13:56:59 <int-e> Sure, wikipedia is attractive because search engines rank it highly. :)
13:57:14 <int-e> (and users as well)
14:00:48 <myname> so we should just host unused mediawikis to encoyrage spammers to not hassle with small countermeasures
14:03:39 <Taneb> I suspect there's strategies here for using mediawiki spammers as free labour
14:05:34 <wob_jonas> myname: no, we have that outsourced to wikia.com
14:05:38 <wob_jonas> they host a lot of unused mediawikis
14:08:09 <wob_jonas> Taneb: you mean like that plan when you host a website with some useful service, but make it serve captchas that are stolen from another website where you want to create spam accounts, let the users of your good website solve the captchas (whether they're legitimate users or other spammers is irrelevant), and forwarding the solutions to the website
14:25:47 <int-e> . o O ( s/useful service/free porn/ )
14:26:55 <wob_jonas> yeah, a non-useful service that people want to use might work better
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15:00:15 <myname> but without spam, we wouldn't have real fast nora
15:00:44 <Taneb> Well, we would, it would just have a bad name
15:01:27 <Taneb> Also, *Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download
15:01:50 <myname> i fail to memorize that
15:02:23 <HackEso> The reals are an overt complete ordered Brazilian currency invented by Taneb in 1994.
15:15:11 <wob_jonas> should that wisdom entry refer to Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download?
15:29:07 <HackEso> real fast nora's hair salon 3: shear disaster download:Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download is the most readable functional programming language out there.
15:29:21 <fizzie> Well, that's not very useful.
15:55:28 <wob_jonas> `learn The reals are an overt complete ordered Brazilian currency invented by Taneb in 1994. You can pay with them fast in Nora's Hair Salon.
15:55:30 <HackEso> Relearned 'real': The reals are an overt complete ordered Brazilian currency invented by Taneb in 1994. You can pay with them fast in Nora's Hair Salon.
15:55:39 <HackEso> The reals are an overt complete ordered Brazilian currency invented by Taneb in 1994. You can pay with them fast in Nora's Hair Salon.
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16:43:21 <arseniiv> You can pay with them fast in Nora's Hair Salon. => omg :D
16:45:50 <arseniiv> (I’ll try to be more constructive rather than post abbreviated reactions on random posts)
16:46:26 <arseniiv> btw I have some reading on linear logic. Can’t say now I understand it, but nonetheless it’s better
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18:07:49 <b_jonas> arseniiv: don't feel bad about that, it seems that nobody understands linear logic in its full generality, people only understand various restricted cases which either forbid some expressions or add more axioms
18:10:17 <b_jonas> arseniiv: https://twitter.com/gro_tsen/status/1084547915572568065
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18:14:32 <arseniiv> I presume someone had tried to use the traditional tensor index notation to linear logic? As their categories are quite similar…
18:15:31 <arseniiv> though, meh, index notation can’t, as far as I know, represent ⊕ (vector one)
18:17:20 <arseniiv> I mean, there’s that notation, liked especially by physicists, where you write T_ij^k = f_i f_j A^k_k f^k
18:19:01 <arseniiv> *where you write T_ij^k = f_i f_j A^k_k' v^k' for T = f ⊗ f ⊗ (Av), and which is often really helpful in trickier cases with many traces, (anti)symmetrizations and differentiations
18:19:56 <arseniiv> but it doesn’t account for ⊕, so linear ⊕ and & wouldn’t be covered either
18:22:00 <arseniiv> or maybe it does but I haven’t seen how it could be as visually simple and helpful as how ⊗ and various lifted tr’s and permutations are represented
18:23:13 <arseniiv> covariant and contravariant indices do speak of negation, though
18:26:14 <arseniiv> and do one need pure ⊕ and & at all? Maybe one could work at representing ! and ? only… hm, no
18:33:30 <arseniiv> though then I don’t understand how to represent even ⅋
18:35:44 <arseniiv> okay maybe there is a language akin to Martin-Löf-style type theory to write linear proofs. It should exist, as this logic is at least partially did find uses in programming, right?
18:36:06 <arseniiv> sequent-style things are hard on my head
18:47:44 <kmc> arseniiv: typically they look like "normal" languages but with an extra checking step which ensures liearity
18:48:08 <kmc> e.g., Rust is an affine language, there is nothing syntactically preventing you from duplicating a value, but the compiler will complain
18:48:13 <kmc> that may be an unsatisfying answer
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18:50:30 <shachaf> That's only multiplicative linear logic or something, though.
18:50:55 <shachaf> arseniiv: Prolog, or maybe some linear variant of it, seems to me pretty similar to index notation.
18:51:24 <shachaf> I wrote about that in the past sometime.
18:56:07 <arseniiv> kmc: I presume, an affine language has several additional term constructors, where can I read a more or less complete type system featuring them? To get some picture
18:56:51 <kmc> there is a little bit about substructural types in ATaPL
18:58:21 <arseniiv> do you mean an advanced one or a simple one? (though I’ll take a look at both’s contents right away)
18:59:09 <arseniiv> ah, I see, chapter 1 of advanced, thanks
18:59:31 <arseniiv> hopefully this time I’ll make something of it, having more background now
19:00:09 <arseniiv> shachaf: yeah, I seem to remember something about that
19:00:44 <arseniiv> also sigfpe wrote something about tensory things in Haskell
19:01:02 <arseniiv> which shared something with this idea
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19:20:55 <b_jonas> arseniiv: you probalby have to ask ais523 or read his thesis
19:21:38 <b_jonas> whoa, the python standard library seems to have a function that lets you recognize a louse
19:22:00 <arseniiv> b_jonas: wow, where can I find the thesis?
19:22:50 <b_jonas> ``` python3 -c 'import itertools; help(itertools.islice)'
19:22:51 <HackEso> Help on class islice in module itertools: \ \ class islice(builtins.object) \ | islice(iterable, stop) --> islice object \ | islice(iterable, start, stop[, step]) --> islice object \ | \ | Return an iterator whose next() method returns selected values from an \ | iterable. If start is specified, will skip all preceding elements; \ | otherwise, start defaults to zero. Step defaults to one. If \ | specified as another value, step determine
19:23:25 <b_jonas> there's probably a link somewhere from the channel logs
19:25:59 <arseniiv> b_jonas: hmm… then it’s more probable ais523 would instead come himself (noticing the mention) and link or hint to it
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21:09:55 <ais523> suppose I have a dodecahedron; I place a fork on the middle of each edge, and a dining philosopher on each corner
21:10:17 <ais523> the philosophers can eat if they can pick up two of the three adjacent forks
21:11:03 <ais523> short of a global lock, is there any solution to this using the normal concurrency primitives, given that philosophers who want to eat need to start eating as soon as two forks are available, and shouldn't take any forks until two forks are available?
21:20:37 <int-e> so, hmm. associate a condition variable to each philosopher that's signaled when a neighbouring fork is put back; then acquire forks in a predetermined global order? the global order is not nice in that it breaks the symmetry, but it's a standard way of avoiding deadlocks with many resources.
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21:23:16 <int-e> I have not thought this through yet. What exactly are the requirements wrt. fairness and starvation?
21:25:41 <b_jonas> ais523: have you seen the M:tG computation article I linked to?
21:26:20 <b_jonas> ais523: I think there is a solution for it using mutexes, yes... let me think
21:26:48 <b_jonas> any two of the three forks? that's tricky
21:28:27 <b_jonas> a moment, I'm in the middle of solving a code golf problem
21:28:47 <b_jonas> ais523: https://arxiv.org/abs/1904.09828 Alex Churchill, Stella Biderman, Austin Herrick "Magic: The Gathering is Turing Complete"
21:29:18 <b_jonas> also, arseniiv wanted to ask something about affine something or another and I pointed to you
21:38:27 <ais523> arseniiv: what's the question? that's "my field" (specifically affine logic, but linear's close enough that I picked a bit of that up too)
21:38:59 <b_jonas> ais523: it's interesting enough, even if it's not strictly "better" than what you're doing. I even have a few comments about it from https://esolangs.org/logs/2019-05-09.html#l6b
21:39:19 <ais523> b_jonas: I bet their deck can't actually win serious tournament games, but it might reach the other requirements I was aiming for
21:39:33 <ais523> incidentally, I thought more about the wording of the rules for win conditions
21:39:35 <b_jonas> but my comments don't tell everything, so it's better if you read the article
21:39:51 <ais523> I'm reading it, but I can't read and talk on IRC at the same time
21:39:59 <b_jonas> ais523: sure, but there are some techniques they use that you should know about
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21:40:18 <ais523> wrt the win conditions: I think you actually have three outcomes (not two): perfect loop, one player wins, and an infinite game that isn't a loop under M:tG's definition
21:41:45 <arseniiv> ais523: for now, I’m only interested in basics. Say, some text on type theory for these logics. I think it’d clear many things for me, and I have no specific intentions above that yet
21:42:21 <b_jonas> ais523: other outcomes are: the other player wins; the game is a draw for reasons other than a loop, such as losing life to get to zero life at the same time
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21:42:41 <arseniiv> kmc had already adviced me a chapter in Pierce’s advanced TaPL, I hadn’t yet read it
21:42:42 <ais523> b_jonas: I meant from my construction
21:42:42 <b_jonas> but as for an infinite game that's not a loop, I don't think I understand M:tG's loop rules enough to be able to tell what counts as such
21:43:03 <ais523> it's clear that the judges use a fairly narrow definition of loops
21:43:28 <ais523> arseniiv: full linear logic is ridiculously complex and few people use the whole thing, there are some pretty nice fragments of it though
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21:46:36 <arseniiv> ais523: mhm, a type theory for any its subsystem would be perfectly okay. Also do I get it right affine logic should be less complex, or is it more?
21:46:37 <ais523> arseniiv: you might be interested in my PhD thesis <https://etheses.bham.ac.uk//id/eprint/6120/1/Smith15PhD.pdf>, specifically chapter 5
21:47:04 <ais523> an affine type system normally has exactly one more rule than the comparable linear type system
21:47:10 <ais523> specifically, a weakening rule that lets you discard a variable from a context
21:47:44 <ais523> but it rather depends on how you write the type system, there's more than one way to write them, with some of the more implicit methods the affine type system might be simpler I guess
21:48:32 <b_jonas> ais523: when you say judges use a narrow definition of loop, does "loop" mean when they allow a player to shortcut a loop without explaining all its details, or instead for awarding a draw for an infinite loop that can't be broken?
21:48:39 <ais523> there's background earlier in the thesis in case there's anything there you don't understand
21:48:49 <ais523> b_jonas: both, I believe, although this is from memory so I'm not 100% sure
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21:49:18 <ais523> it wouldn't surprise me if the rules were poorly-defined in this case
21:49:37 <b_jonas> I think the infinite loop rules are poorly defined in at least some other sense
21:50:11 <b_jonas> but for all I know, they might be well defined enough for the loops that you have in your turing-machine construction
21:50:30 <b_jonas> because they're ones where the players can't make any meaningful choices
21:51:34 <ais523> b_jonas: well, if we're going from The Waterfall Model, I suspect a loop in the M:tG sense either leaves all the counters the same, or possibly increases counters that never zero
21:51:55 <ais523> (come to think of it, this is pretty similar to what ratiofall optimizes at optimization level 2, except that ratiofall doesn't remember as much history)
21:52:08 <b_jonas> I suspect that the rules are supposed to imply that if the players can make no meaningful choices (other than resigning) and the game continues that way infinitely, that shall result in a draw.
21:52:39 <arseniiv> <ais523> there's background earlier in the thesis in case there's anything there you don't understand > right :)
21:53:35 <b_jonas> which means that if the waterfall machine doesn't terminate, and you correctly start its simulation in M:tG, then the game is a draw
21:53:40 <ais523> chapter 5's good for learning about affine type systems because it starts with a type system for (a mathematically idealized version of) Algol, a practical language, and then a few pages later shows the affine version of the same langauge
21:54:12 <arseniiv> (hm I’m still undecided how to quote better in line-based chats like IRC…)
21:54:46 <ais523> <arseniiv> (hm I’m still undecided how to quote better in line-based chats like IRC…) ← I like using left arrows
21:55:37 <ais523> b_jonas: "104.4b If a game that’s not using the limited range of influence option (including a two-player game) somehow enters a “loop”of mandatory actions, repeating a sequence of events with no way to stop, the game is a draw. Loops that contain an optional action don’t result in a draw." ← I believe the current intention is to interpret "repeating" narrowly, not sure though
21:56:19 <ais523> "720.1b Occasionally the game gets into a state in which a set of actions could be repeated indefinitely (thus creating a“loop”). In that case, the shortcut rules can be used to determine how many times those actions are repeated without having to actually perform them, and how the loop is broken."
21:56:27 <ais523> "720.1c Tournamentsuse a modified version of the rules governing shortcuts and loops. These rules are covered in the Magic: The GatheringTournament Rules (found at WPN.Wizards.com/en/resources/rules-documents).Whenever the Tournament Rules contradict these rulesduring a tournament, the Tournament Rules take precedence."
21:56:48 <arseniiv> it didn’t occur to me until a week or so ago it’s way better to start a quote with its author’s name, though. In another, way smaller, channel of three it worked before I started to misread my own posts
21:57:09 <b_jonas> ais523: right, 720.4 is also relevant
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21:57:59 <ais523> b_jonas: when not using the tournament rules, loops are clearly defined in 720.1c as being shortcuttable, and 720.2a disallows conditional actions in shortcuts
21:58:43 <b_jonas> ais523: hmm, so you want to decide how this works per the tournament rules, not per just the comp rules?
21:58:45 <ais523> this leads me to conclude that the loop must be a repeat of the exact same sequence of actions, so something as simple as the three-counter program where the time between counter switches grows exponentially is likely not a loop in the M:tG sense
21:59:31 <ais523> however, I think the three-counter program in question is simple enough to translate to a reasonable-looking M:tG gamestate
22:00:02 <ais523> <Magic tournament rules> 4.4 Loops A loop is a form of tournament shortcut that involves detailing a sequence of actions to be repeated and then performing a number of iterations of that sequence. The loop actions must be identical in each iteration and cannot include conditional actions ("If this, then that".)
22:00:30 <ais523> so we may be able to find a pretty simple infinite game
22:00:45 <ais523> (i.e. forced actions only, but without ever exactly repeating)
22:02:06 <ais523> haha, here we go: each player has no permanents in play, and in their library has four copies of each of the Eldrazi titans from Rise of the Eldrazi, all the other cards they started with got exiled somehow
22:02:38 <ais523> or, hmm, ideally their maximum hand size should be 0 so they don't have a choice of what to discard
22:03:20 <arseniiv> ais523: oh wait wait, don’t you accidently remember a time I had asked about encoding different states of a life cycle of a value in its type, didn’t you by the way said something about substructural typing? I got to reading Pierce now and remembered about that poor idea
22:04:08 <ais523> arseniiv: possibly; I don't remember that but it's not particularly out of character for me, it might have been someone else though
22:06:01 <ais523> b_jonas: OK, here's the situation: each player has two copies of Thought Devourer enchanted with Pacifisms on the battlefield, their library consists of four copies of each of the Eldrazi titans from Rise of the Eldrazi plus four copies of Evermind, graveyards are empty, rest of their deck is irrelevant cards in exile
22:06:29 <ais523> nobody can possibly do anything other than draw for turn and discard to hand size, discarding an Eldrazi titan forces a shuffle, discarding Evermind doesn't
22:06:57 <ais523> ir's clear that the game can't progress but it's also clearly not a loop under the tournament rules definitions and almost certainly not a loop under the comprehensive rules definitions either
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22:09:03 <b_jonas> ais523: I was thinking like the oppoenent has a Faceless Butcher with a Faceless Butcher of his under, and a Faceless Butcher with a Faceless Butcher of his under, and I have a Faceless Butcher with a Faceless Butcher under, and there are no other creatures on tb, and I cast a Faceless Butcher,
22:09:56 <b_jonas> which according to the tournament rules isn't a loop, because for each trigger, the player has his choices restricted depending on what the opponent did before, so their actions will be conditional on the opponent's actions
22:10:01 <b_jonas> but I might be misunderstanding this
22:10:29 <b_jonas> but perhaps a better example would be some kind of power of two loop
22:14:45 <b_jonas> say, each player is locked down with an empty hand and a Null Profusion, and I have a Chronozoa
22:15:07 <b_jonas> no wait, that wouldn't be conditional
22:15:29 <b_jonas> but the loop actions wouldn't be "identical in each iteration", no matter how long you choose an iteration
22:16:17 <ais523> yes, aperiodic is probably sufficient
22:16:26 <b_jonas> ah yes, what you said works to make it conditional depending on randomness
22:20:45 <ais523> #magicjudges-rules just told me that this situation isn't actually covered by the rules at all
22:21:40 <b_jonas> yeah... as for what the rules don't cover, at some point I should write a proper question about how linked abilities work, because I think the rules don't cover that either, but I'd like to know what the judges actually think
22:24:18 <b_jonas> it was nice back when Wizards still had its own forum, and their rules manager read rules questions there and patched holes found
22:24:26 <b_jonas> do they read the scryfall forum now?
22:25:06 <b_jonas> or do they communicate only through twitter?
22:25:23 <ais523> their employees come on Reddit occasionally, but it's very sporadic
22:25:52 <ais523> Mark Rosewater's Tumblr account also used to have a lot of discussion; it probably still does but I can't access it any more because it's doing something weird wrt browsers
22:26:01 <b_jonas> also I still want to know why Hollow Dogs is not a skeleton, but that's not the rules manager's thing
22:34:20 <ais523> hmm, I read the paper, that construction's way more complex than mine
22:34:36 <ais523> although it's implementing a Turing machine directly rather than something simple like The Waterfall Model
22:34:59 <ais523> that said, I think they're wrong about an infinite loop being a draw unless it's a perfect loop, but it doesn't really change the main result of their paper
22:35:00 <b_jonas> ais523: yes it is, partly because they don't seem to know about StackFlow
22:36:03 <b_jonas> but the construction has some interesting elements, such as useful (in such constructions) cards that I didn't know abt
22:36:20 <ais523> TWM is basically StackFlow with only one type of symbol
22:36:54 <b_jonas> do you suppose we should email the corresponding author with some of the stuff you've figured out?
22:37:58 <b_jonas> TWM matches M:tG even better, sure, because popping each stack at the same time is natural in MTG
22:38:30 <ais523> I've emailed Alex Churchill in the past; also spoken to someone on Reddit who is highly likely to be Stella Biderman, although I don't know that for certain
22:39:24 <b_jonas> on the other hand their construction is small, in the sense that they know a TM that's much smaller than any universal waterfall program is likely to be
22:39:37 <b_jonas> so they need less than 30 creature types
22:39:42 <zzo38> Discussing Turing-completeness and other stuff like that in Magic: the Gathering is also the point of news:un2.org.zzo38computer.magic.maths
22:39:55 <ais523> I think 10 counters is likely to be more than enough in TWM
22:40:06 <ais523> maybe I should get around to actually making a TCness proof rather than trying to optimise it
22:40:17 <zzo38> Creatues have a lot of subtypes.
22:40:30 <zzo38> Is there any construction that depends on exactly how many creature types are there?
22:40:47 <ais523> I would be very surprised if it's possible with 4; 5 is unlikely but the lowest number that would seem vaguely plausible; the true number is probably 7 or 8, I'd guess
22:40:53 <zzo38> (new version of the rules that they add some, then, will ruin it)
22:40:53 <ais523> but I might not be able to find the construction
22:41:11 <ais523> zzo38: almost every construction has a minimum number of required creature types, but it's hard to see how a construction would have a maximum number
22:41:20 <ais523> you'd need a card with rules text like "choose a creature type that hasn't been chosen"
22:42:03 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't know of one, but I imagine you could read the number of creature types, at least mod 2, with a construction that specifically tries to do that
22:42:53 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, something like that was my idea
22:43:25 <b_jonas> ais523: no, you just need "choose a creature type, create a token", and another with "two creatures that share a creature type"
22:43:54 <ais523> maybe we can create a machine that can count how many creature types exist in Magic?
22:45:36 <b_jonas> a game where two players alternately have to choose a new creature type, and whoever can't loses
22:46:51 <b_jonas> I wonder if you could also do that with card names using the un-card ____
22:48:40 <ais523> <b_jonas> a game where two players alternately have to choose a new creature type, and whoever can't loses ← that sounds like it could be printable as an Un-card
22:48:57 <ais523> but yes, it's probably possible to set it up with some combo or other
22:49:33 <b_jonas> here's something simple you could do in a deck that's at least as viable as your potence deck after you go off:
22:51:44 <b_jonas> have a Mistform Wall grown to 50/50, give your opponent 1000 clones of Riders of Gavony
22:52:14 <b_jonas> they get to list any number of creature types, and after that, if you can choose a creature type that they forgot, you win
22:52:48 <b_jonas> and in a tournament, I think they wouldn't be allowed to look at the rules that list all creature types
22:52:53 <b_jonas> they'd have to do it off the top of their head
22:53:41 <b_jonas> mind you, you also couldn't look at notes
22:53:50 <b_jonas> you'd have to learn creature types in advance
22:54:16 <b_jonas> obviously this too is one that's harder to pull off than to just win
22:58:59 <ais523> <MTR 4.4> The judge is the final arbiter of what constitutes a loop.
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23:10:58 <b_jonas> Completely different thing. In Budapest, on air-conditioned trams, each door has a timeout so if nobody goes through the door, the door closes, even if the tram is still standing in the station, and passangers can reopen the door by pressing the exit button, either from the inside or the outsied
23:12:08 <b_jonas> Now I was in the Netherlands for a holiday. In Amsterdam, the tram doors close on a timeout, but there's no sensor recognizing that passengers are passing through it, so they close on a timer even while people are actively getting off or on.
23:12:40 <b_jonas> So like every third passenger has to press the button while passengers are getting off, or else the door agressively closes on them.
23:12:52 <b_jonas> And since Amsterdam is full of tourists, passengers often don't know this.
23:13:03 <b_jonas> Very annoying user interface decision for apparently no reason.
23:14:41 <kmc> that's odd
23:14:57 <kmc> the trams here sometimes open their doors automatically and sometimes don't and it confuses me
23:15:01 <kmc> i'm not sure exactly what determines it
23:15:07 <kmc> I know they always open underground
23:16:01 <b_jonas> Mind you, in Budapest there's still one annoying case when a tram door can close on passengers. The "TW 6000" type trams have high stairs in the doors, with two intermediate steps, both of which are wobbly so people try to avoid stepping on them. There's a pressure sensor for at least one of the steps, and a photosensor a quite low height.
23:16:10 <ais523> in the UK, many causes of train-related accidents have been reduced to a pretty low levle, leaving "people getting stuck in doors" as a fairly large proportion of train incidents
23:16:25 <ais523> meaning that there's a lot of pressure to try to reduce the frequency with which they occur
23:16:32 <kmc> a lady got her hair stuck in the ddors and got dragged by a train here :O
23:16:35 <kmc> i think she was ok
23:16:36 <ais523> so train doors can act quite bizarrely sometimes, especially when they're closing
23:16:37 <b_jonas> When someone is getting on with a baby carriage (pram), they usually try lift the carriage straight up from the ground to the high tram floor, which bypasses both the photosensor and the weight sensor,
23:16:38 <kmc> scary though
23:16:48 <b_jonas> so the tram door can try to close on the baby carriage, which is pretty annoying.
23:16:49 <kmc> b_jonas: tricky
23:17:03 <b_jonas> But frankly, that type of tram is terrible anyway because of the two wobbly steps.
23:17:07 <kmc> low floor trams w/o steps are much better
23:17:28 <b_jonas> That type currently runs on tram line 24.
23:17:53 <ais523> kmc: the UK does the reverse pretty much, instead of a low floor they have high platforms on the kerb that let you get up to the level of the tram before stepping onto it
23:18:13 <ais523> and those are the only places the tram stops
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23:18:27 <ais523> (in Birmingham/Wolverhampton, at least, other cities' tram systems may be different)
23:18:30 <b_jonas> ais523: we have high platforms on some lines, but they're not as high as proper high floors, only as high as the higher low floor trams.
23:19:45 <b_jonas> The point is that a tram with high floor has more space for people and seats, because the wheel assemblies are below the floor, whereas in low floor trams they protrude so much above the floors that you can only put one-and-a-half wide seats on them, which is really a waste.
23:19:54 <kmc> ais523: yeah
23:20:00 <kmc> here there are mini high platforms for disabled people
23:20:07 <kmc> but the train only stops there on request
23:20:08 <b_jonas> This wasted space is the reason why high floor trams were used so much.
23:20:12 <kmc> (and not every aboe ground stop has them)
23:20:16 <kmc> the stairs are motorized
23:20:24 <ais523> the provision for disabled people on the trains (as opposed to the trams) is weird
23:20:28 <kmc> when it's at a mini high platform, or in the underground segments, the stairs go up for level boarding
23:20:41 <ais523> there's normally a gap in both horizontal and vertical directions between train and platform
23:21:07 <kmc> they are going to convert Caltrain (the commuter rail) to high platforms, and to do so they have ordered new trains (they have to anyway, because of electrification) which have two sets of doors at different heights
23:21:07 <ais523> so if a wheelchair-bound person wants to board a staff member from the station has to arrive with a portable ramp to let them on and off
23:21:12 <kmc> seems a bit silly but probably the best way to manage it
23:21:18 <kmc> ais523: yeah that's how it works on Caltrain right now
23:21:43 <kmc> there is a very silly regulatory difficulty with high platforms
23:21:49 <ais523> "mind the gap" is a very common announcement at British rail stations and aboard trains, to the point that it became a meme several decade ago
23:21:50 <kmc> which is that a few freight trains use the caltrain line
23:22:02 <kmc> and it is still legal for workers to hang off the sides of freight trains
23:22:07 <kmc> and they couldn't clear the high platforms
23:22:24 <fizzie> There's fancy automated ramps in buses here.
23:22:30 <ais523> it's been mostly replaced with "please mind the gap between the train and the platform edge" which is less snappy, but still possibly memable
23:22:32 <kmc> it's fun when you're on the platform and a freight train blows through
23:22:48 <kmc> I noticed in Poland that there was often a large gap between the train and the platform
23:22:51 <kmc> like almost a foot
23:22:54 <fizzie> Some of the tube stations with curved platforms have pretty substatial gaps, on some sets of doors.
23:22:54 <kmc> seems dangerous
23:23:00 <kmc> I guess the loading gauges are not very standardized
23:23:01 <ais523> a foot is /small/ for the UK
23:23:13 <ais523> although people falling into the gaps is fairly rare
23:23:22 <b_jonas> ais523: in some parts of the Amsterdam Schiphol airport, some automatic speakers say "mind your step" very often. I think it's related to the walking strips (horizontal conveyor belts for humans, with fences like that of escalators).
23:23:22 <fizzie> Sometimes it's "avoid the step down from the train to the platform".
23:23:24 <kmc> fizzie: the curved stations in the NYC subway, at least some of them, have motorized gap fillers that pop out when the train stops
23:23:45 <ais523> (there was an incident a while back where someone fell into the gap and got stuck and they recruited pretty much the entire passenger list of the train to push the train a few millimetres sideways to let them escape)
23:24:01 <fizzie> The jump down from Southern's trains at Clapham Junction is sometimes ridiculously high.
23:24:34 <b_jonas> kmc: it's legal for workers to hang off the sides of freight _trains_? wow
23:24:52 <kmc> it can be useful, if they are street running
23:24:55 <kmc> or working in yards
23:24:59 <kmc> i don't see why it would be necessary on a mainline
23:25:19 <ais523> what does "street running" mean?
23:25:21 <kmc> I assume they have some solution to this because high platforms are at least supposedly going forward
23:25:28 <kmc> ais523: tracks down the middle of the street, like a tram, but with freight trains on them
23:25:34 <kmc> it seems mad but this is actually common in the USA
23:25:44 <kmc> in Oakland the Amtrak train runs in the street
23:25:50 <ais523> that's how I initially parsed it but I discarded the meaning because it didn't make sense :-D
23:26:17 <kmc> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-23cV1uZvYU&t=1m34s
23:26:25 <b_jonas> also (this isn't a user-interface thing) in Rotterdam, the north metro line has trains that can take power from either third rail or overhead wire, because which one exists depends on which part of the line they are in
23:26:33 <kmc> generally freight trains will go very slow
23:26:36 <kmc> < 5 mph when street running
23:26:51 <kmc> as a result, and because freight trains are quite long, they block people from crossing the street for an extended period
23:27:14 <ais523> b_jonas: there are some trains like that in the UK, I think just because they manufacture them both ways so they can sell them to multiple train companies, it's hardly any extra components
23:27:35 <kmc> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06QcAIBcXfs
23:27:36 <ais523> overhead is much more common in the UK but third rail is moderately common too
23:27:49 <kmc> b_jonas: yeah
23:27:53 <kmc> b_jonas: same on Boston's blue line
23:28:05 <kmc> they switch from third rail to overhead (outbound, inbound the reverse) at Airport station
23:28:19 <kmc> the reason I heard is that they were worried the third rail would corrode when the track is near the sea
23:28:26 <kmc> or like it wouldn't be properly insulated from ground or something
23:28:37 <kmc> on MUNI they just use overhead wires even in the tunnel segments
23:28:41 <kmc> I think most european trams are the same?
23:29:08 <fizzie> Also speaking of confusing UIs, there's three kinds of door-opening buttons on South Western Railway trains: some are edge-triggered (so if you start holding them down before they're activated, the door won't open), some are level-triggered (so you *should* hold them down from the get-go, for optimal speed) and some are what I'm not sure there's a name for, pulse-triggered, integral-triggered, the kind
23:29:14 <fizzie> of things where (presumably because of hydraulics or pneumatics) you have to hold them long enough, if you just do a short press it makes a noise and maybe opens a cm or two but then closes again.
23:29:16 <ais523> the Birmingham-to-Wolverhampton trams are overhead lines everywhere, although there aren't many tunnels on that route
23:29:32 <fizzie> Those last ones confuse the non-habitual passengers the most.
23:29:49 <kmc> fizzie: debounced? low-pass filtered?
23:30:13 <fizzie> Something like that. Though it feels more like it's just physics and not really a feature.
23:30:21 <b_jonas> ais523: yes: in Budapest on the M3 metro, I believe each carriage has four contact boots for the third rail on their left, and four on the right, and there are six carriages per train
23:30:38 <fizzie> Commuting by train is all about millisecond optimizations in door-opening strategies.
23:30:48 <fizzie> Well, that and positioning.
23:31:05 <b_jonas> this way they can bridge short gaps in the third rail, such as you have at forks in the rail
23:31:38 <ais523> fizzie: for me it's at least partly about organising my day so that I can go to as many of the places I want to go to on a single ticket
23:32:11 <b_jonas> fizzie: I've talked about the open buttons in Budapest, they have some annoying properties too
23:32:13 <fizzie> For my previous commute there was a fixed relationship between the embarkation platform position and the disembarkation one, independent of the train, but from my current starting point you have to factor in the number of cars, because now that affects how it stops. :/
23:33:04 <ais523> you also have to allow for different stations having entrances in different places relative to the train
23:33:55 <ais523> at Birmingham New Street it's much harder because you have to allow for the trains stopping in different places relative to the platform based on where they're going next (often they terminate there), on which platforms are available, and on whether other trains are using the same platform at the same time
23:34:17 <fizzie> Sure. But usually there's time on the starting station to walk around, so it's just all about choosing the spot which drops you off at the exit at where you're going. And I'm always going to the same place.
23:34:29 <b_jonas> in both Amsterdam and Rotterdam, trams also have proxy sensors in each door, where you're required to touch your ticket or pass both when you get on and off, even if it's a kind of pass that's good for an unlimited amount of travels within a time limit
23:34:53 <fizzie> Our office lift doors are super-aggressive, and (hearsay) that's because we got a group of Kone engineers to come in and tweak them after everyone complained about the wait times.
23:35:01 <fizzie> Presumably there's a lot of knobs they can tweak.
23:35:07 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, that's why many train doors have steps that are close to vertical, as in a ladder
23:36:01 <b_jonas> fizzie: knobs? I thought they'd connect a laptop to the control panel and upload a new firmware or something
23:36:10 <b_jonas> oh, you mean software knobs
23:36:30 <b_jonas> elevators have a pretty long lifetime
23:36:40 <b_jonas> so their still exist ones controlled by old electronics
23:37:17 <fizzie> Yes, there are some pretty old elevators around. But this is a new building.
23:37:39 <ais523> almost anything that contains a timer, there's normally a pretty simple way to adjust the length of time it takes
23:38:04 <ais523> even with hardwired electronics you'd probably just need to change a capacitor or resistor
23:38:15 <ais523> and both of those components are available in a huge range of values
23:38:18 <fizzie> It's also got that thing where there's no buttons inside, you enter the destination floor number to call one, and the panel tells you which lift to take.
23:38:27 <fizzie> Which I presume is more efficient at least on paper.
23:38:33 <kmc> the really old relay based elevator controllers are so cool
23:38:43 <b_jonas> fizzie: you enter the destination floor outside? I have never seen that
23:38:55 <b_jonas> does that exist in real life?
23:38:58 <zzo38> I have heard of that before, but I have not seen it.
23:38:59 <fizzie> And then it'll say a letter from A to E.
23:39:05 <fizzie> Where those are the 5 shafts.
23:39:07 <b_jonas> for, like elevators controlled by untrained people?
23:39:15 <kmc> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4Dvg7DhCtg
23:39:29 <ais523> b_jonas: there's one of those in the University of Birmingham (although not in the building where I work0
23:39:35 <kmc> I've seen those! you enter the number and it dynamically decides which elevator will serve which floors
23:39:40 <kmc> rather than people getting in and then telling it
23:39:42 <kmc> more efficient
23:39:56 <ais523> it's for efficiency, it can allow some of the lifts to skip certain floors
23:40:02 <b_jonas> I've never seen such a thing
23:40:10 <ais523> so people going long-distance can get express journeys with few stops
23:40:38 <fizzie> We've got those in two of the London offices.
23:40:47 <b_jonas> I've seen cases when there's a set of linked elevators with shared call buttons, and it decides which elevator you shall take, but they only have two call buttons on a storey (one up and one down), so you still enter the destination floor with buttons inside
23:41:00 <b_jonas> ais523: about how many floors does that serve?
23:41:11 <ais523> either 12 or 16, I forget which
23:41:37 <b_jonas> maybe I'm just not paying attention, because I usually prefer to take stairs over elevators
23:41:40 <ais523> as for your "set of linked elevators" case, I'm surprised that you consider that surprising or atypical, it's by far the most common arrangement when more than one is needed
23:41:41 <fizzie> Ours are 11 and... somewhere around 9, I forget, I don't go to CSG much.
23:42:05 <b_jonas> ais523: sure, but it's sort of new too, old elevators didn't use to have those
23:42:13 <b_jonas> I'm not considering it surprising or atypical
23:42:26 <b_jonas> I'm just saying that's one of what we have, in the few buildings that have more than one elevators
23:42:28 <fizzie> I didn't know https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-deck_elevator was a thing until recently.
23:42:40 <fizzie> It's not like you could necessarily tell if the shaft's not visible.
23:43:10 <b_jonas> fizzie: wow. so that's like a cross between a traditional elevator and a paternoster
23:43:14 <fizzie> I've in fact been in two of the London ones (Shard and 20 Fenchurch Street aka the Walkie-Talkie) without knowing.
23:43:15 <kmc> yeah it's clever
23:43:21 <kmc> 2x capacity without more shafts
23:43:25 <kmc> I would love to try a paternoster
23:43:29 <kmc> they seem terrifying
23:43:38 <fizzie> kmc: There's a paternoster in the Finnish parliament building.
23:43:44 <fizzie> I don't know if visitors get to use it though.
23:43:47 <ais523> the building I'm talking about used to have one but it was removed before I started working here
23:43:50 <ais523> presumably for safety reasons
23:43:56 <b_jonas> fizzie: that would be nice for building E of BME, since many people get in both on floor 0 and on floor 1
23:43:57 <kmc> I do like the European elevators where there's no internal door
23:44:03 <kmc> so the shaft going by is exposed
23:44:08 <kmc> and each floor has a door you open manually
23:44:12 <kmc> at least they have interlocks -- usually
23:44:20 <b_jonas> kmc: paternosters aren't terrifying in reality
23:44:28 <b_jonas> not more than normal elevators at least
23:44:50 <fizzie> Right, apparently it's only for people who work in the building.
23:45:15 <fizzie> https://www.flickr.com/photos/finnishparliament/36082539733
23:45:55 <ais523> do the paternosters stop if someone gets stuck in them?
23:46:01 <b_jonas> we have a hospital here with a paternoster. the labels say that only employees are allowed to use it, for liability reasons, but everyone ignores that rules, because the other elevators that patients or visitors can use don't have enough capacity
23:46:12 <ais523> do they stop at every floor rather than just running continuously?
23:46:41 <b_jonas> (that building also has an elevator or two that only employees can use and they use key locks to enforce that)
23:46:46 <ais523> hmm, it crosses my mind that some sort of "quantized paternoster" could have internal and external doors, it'd be slow (due to stopping at every floor) but have enormous capacity
23:46:47 <b_jonas> ais523: they run continuously
23:47:05 <ais523> presumably they'd have to stop if someone was caught between the cab and floor outside it
23:47:09 <b_jonas> and I don't know what happens if soneone gets stuck in between the carriage and the floor
23:47:18 <b_jonas> if someone only got stuck in the carriage, it would continue to run
23:47:49 <b_jonas> ais523: hmm yes, I guess that could exist, but might only be worth for pretty tall buildings
23:48:18 <b_jonas> though it'd be better with only external doors
23:48:39 <b_jonas> the problem with internal doors is that they and the mechanism to open and close it would add a lot of weight, which matters when you have lots of carriages
23:49:35 <fizzie> The thing about "you specify the destination floor outside" is that where I live *doesn't* have those, so sometimes I enter the lift here, go in, and just wait.
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23:50:07 <b_jonas> fizzie: um... that sounds like backwards
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23:50:28 <fizzie> "here" was at home, if that makes it less backwards.
23:50:33 <int-e> sleepnap: wakey, wakey!
23:52:02 <b_jonas> but aren't you used to the ones at home?
23:53:43 <fizzie> Not really. At work there's all these meetings, and the meeting room situation is a disaster, so there's a lot of going up and down around the building.
23:54:04 <fizzie> Here it's more just home -> street and back, and I take the stairs down anyway.
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23:56:36 <fizzie> Kone is a Finnish company, but I don't think everyone realizes that because it's got a short and not ostentatiously Finnish name.
23:57:16 <b_jonas> modify the elevator control at your home so it goes to your floor by default when idl ethen
23:58:06 <fizzie> At least it's a reasonably benign issue, because once you realize, the control panel is right there.
23:58:07 <b_jonas> it's simpler for me: there's no elevator in the house where I live, nor in the office where I work, nor in the house where my parents live
23:58:32 <zzo38> I just use the stairs instead, and then you don't have to worry about that
23:58:36 <fizzie> The opposite mistake, which is harder to make, has more serious consequences, because once you've entered the work elevators you just end up wherever they decide to take you.
23:59:07 <fizzie> (Although I think there's probably a "please open the doors" button inside?)
23:59:47 <fizzie> Another thing with the work elevators is that if you enter the floor you're already on, the lady that speaks you which one to take sounds very cross.
00:00:03 <fizzie> "Already on floor three! Review your floor!"
00:00:31 <b_jonas> can you enter a number with no matching floor?
00:00:53 <fizzie> Yes, because it's got a 0-9 number pad and there are floors up to 11.
00:01:00 <fizzie> So it's possible to enter 12-19.
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00:01:31 <fizzie> (For 2-9 and 9, it auto-terminates at the first digit. But for 1 it waits a little for a next digit.)
00:01:53 <fizzie> I think it just says something like "floor does not exist" or "invalid floor" if you do though.
00:02:14 <b_jonas> so... there's one less buttons than floors?
00:02:19 <b_jonas> one fewer buttons than floors
00:02:39 <fizzie> Yes, that's the ground floor here.
00:02:55 <fizzie> There's also some basement floors, which I'm actually not sure how you input. Maybe there's a minus sign button?
00:03:24 <fizzie> But they could've had the same amount of buttons as floors, I'm sure it's just a standardized part.
00:04:01 <fizzie> Also, there's a "group" button, which earlier you could use to say "we're 10 people and we're all going to floor 8", by typing in <group>, 1, 0, wait, 8.
00:04:13 <fizzie> But they disabled the group button, rumour has it due to abuse.
00:04:15 <zzo38> I think maybe it should always require the same number of digits, or require to push enter afterward, is better than just trying to guess if you finish or not
00:05:18 <zzo38> (It would also be better for the group function, You can push 1 0 <group> 8 <enter> instead of <group> 1 0 wait 8)
00:06:58 <ais523> fizzie: I think most control panels for lifts consolidate multiple requests to go to the same floor, which would prevent that sort of abuse but also mean that specifying group size would be pointless
00:07:14 <b_jonas> ais523: I think I have a solution.
00:07:34 <zzo38> Yes, you should not need a group size usually, I find it works without
00:09:12 <fizzie> ais523: I think the intent of the group thing was that the scheduler could know a priori you will need that amount of empty space, and can't pick up more than so many passengers along the way.
00:09:14 <b_jonas> ais523: each philosopher shall have a mutex and a condvar. when a philosopher wants to eat, they lock their own mutex, they non-blockingly try to take a combination of two spoons, retries for all possible combination of two spoons they can reach.
00:10:32 <b_jonas> if they succeed taking the spoons, then they unlock their own mutex. if they fail, then they wait on their own condvar unlocking the mutex. right after a philosopher puts a spoon down, they post the condvar of every other philosopher who can reach that spoon.
00:10:45 <fizzie> There seems to also be some odd/even floor bias in the current algorithm.
00:11:10 <b_jonas> in addition to this, you also need a livelock-avoiding strategy, sort of like for the ordinary dining philosophers.
00:11:36 <fizzie> Unfortunately for some reason they have not seen fit to put the elevator scheduler in our source control system so that people could send patches.
00:12:02 <ais523> b_jonas: the mutex is to prevent them being told that the spoons are now available until they've started their wait?
00:12:29 <ais523> I think that works if you have an atomic unlock-mutex-and-wait-on-condvar instruction
00:12:40 <b_jonas> ais523: you always have that for a condvar
00:12:58 <ais523> fizzie: they probably don't own it
00:12:59 <b_jonas> there's not much sense to have a condvar without that, except if you only have cooperative threads without a scheduler or parallelism
00:13:49 <b_jonas> fizzie: can you at least get a copy of the installed binary?
00:13:50 <ais523> I think the main downside of this solution, although it's probably unavoidable, is that each philosopher has to be aware of which other philosophers might want the same spoons
00:14:24 <zzo38> I think you can have, the numbers 0 to 9, and also <positive-enter>, <negative-enter>, <cancel>, <open>, and <close>, and then is good. (You can push <negative-enter> for the basement.) (And on outside, add a car call button.)
00:14:25 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah... that could be written on the spoons of course
00:14:28 <fizzie> They could ask the lift company to provide an API, at least. Though maybe there's some regulation in the industry?
00:15:18 <fizzie> We're building our own building next door, maybe it can have a proper Google lift.
00:15:19 <b_jonas> fizzie: but if you could submit new versions, who would verify those?
00:16:08 <b_jonas> who would verify that the control isn't malicious, such as making your boss get stuck in the elevator unless he agrees to give you a raise, or making the elevator come slowly when your boss calls it unless he gives you a raise?
00:16:26 <zzo38> Unless you are going to build your own lift, nobody will verify it, I think.
00:16:54 <b_jonas> fizzie: could you just put a wrapper over the buttons it has, so that it is always called to only one stop, thus directly control all its movements?
00:17:09 <zzo38> (And then they will not use the code, but if you build your own then you can use it.)
00:17:13 <b_jonas> always called to only one floor I mean
00:17:55 <fizzie> That might be a little hard to do effectively, since it's just one control panel but 5 lifts.
00:19:02 <fizzie> Possibly it would be possible to enter the right sequence of inputs for any desired control outcome.
00:19:15 <fizzie> We'll put DeepMind on it.
00:20:28 <fizzie> They'll build a ML model that nobody understands, but which gets people to their destinations 40% faster.
00:20:42 <b_jonas> although that would make it more easy to write control code that's plasibly deniably malicious
00:21:10 <ais523> the only use for strong AI here would likely be in predicting which floors people will need when they haven't even arrived at the control panel yet
00:21:26 <ais523> once you have the control panel inputs, you can likely just brute-force an optimal solution, the search space can't be that large
00:21:40 <b_jonas> my thermometer says that the max outdoor temperature it has seen since the last reset is 64 °C
00:22:07 <b_jonas> I find that hard to believe
00:22:45 <b_jonas> ais523: oh yeah, HHGG has such elevators
00:24:15 <b_jonas> oh and while we're at books
00:24:29 <ais523> the lifts at my local train station appear to have some limited level of prescience based in; in particular, they seem to do uncommanded moves when a train is imminently about to arrive at the station
00:24:42 <b_jonas> fizzie: Michael Ende describes a scene where a person forgets to get out of an elevator because they're reading an interesting book
00:24:49 <b_jonas> so that's a different way how that can happen
00:26:28 <b_jonas> ais523: I think in a place like Google, you could also have the software allow people to enter the floor number on their mobile phone, before they reach the control panel
00:27:03 <b_jonas> and then fizzie would have that automated from people's calendars, so that when you go to the elevator, it assumes you're going to the floor where your next meeting is scheduled to
00:29:34 <ais523> now I'm imagining putting desks and computers /inside/ the elevators so that people can work as they're going to meetings
00:29:48 <ais523> and just automatically end up in the right place at the right time
00:29:53 <ais523> I know it doesn't work logistically, though
00:30:28 <zzo38> How big is in the inside of the elevator?
00:31:06 <b_jonas> ais523: or people sitting in cubicles that run on wheels that run on rails, and whenever a group people have to meet, their cubicles move close to each other
00:32:37 <b_jonas> zzo38: usually between 4 to 18 square meters, usually smaller, larger if it's used to transport cargo or bed-ridden patients
00:32:37 <ais523> apparently some warehouses nowadays have robots that move the shelves to the people who put items on or take items off; the robots aren't accurate at manipulating items on the shelves, but moving the entire structure is much easier, and it can be parallelised so it's faster than having the workers move to the shelves
00:34:17 <b_jonas> how would my hon. and learned friend fungot design elevators?
00:34:17 <fungot> b_jonas: mr president, in this context, there are important issues at the same time they turned a blind eye to crimes committed on a daily basis means that they have when they board an aircraft and go from airports surrounded by the two committees and this is my third point is to persuade those responsible for these subjective descriptions and to ask them to amend it again during this plenary.
00:34:23 <fizzie> I read (/watched) something about a dock, which has a mixture of human-controlled mobile cranes for the slightly more complicated business, and fully autonomous ones that do the boring part of reshuffling containers in the yard.
00:35:21 <fizzie> I think they mentioned they had to program in a slowly cycling offset, because otherwise the robotic cranes were too accurate, always dropping the containers at exactly the same position, so the ground paving at the container corners/edges was wearing off much faster.
00:35:23 <b_jonas> I should try to use python
00:35:36 <fizzie> (Previously there was always enough slop to spread the impact.)
00:38:33 <zzo38> If you have your own NNTP server, will you use the SUBSCRIBE command in my NNTP server if I implement it to send copies to your server too (when it is scheduled to do so)?
00:42:03 <b_jonas> ais523: wait, for what I said to work, if a philosopher locks a spoon but fails to lock the second spoon to it so unlocks the first spoon, then too they have to post the condvar of the other philosophers of that spoon
00:42:35 <b_jonas> maybe the whole thing doesn't work
00:43:05 <b_jonas> when there's exactly one spoon free, how do the two philosophers avoid livelocking by alternatingly taking it in rapid succession?
00:43:16 <ais523> you'd need an atomic way to take two locks at once
00:43:29 <b_jonas> I mean obviously there can't be exactly one spoon free
00:43:34 <b_jonas> but something similar could happen
00:43:47 <ais523> there can locally be exactly one spoon free
00:43:51 <ais523> even if globally there are more
00:44:16 <ais523> that's not really a livelock, it's a failure mode that ends up degenerating to polling, which is a bit different
00:44:46 <b_jonas> well, this is an interesting problem
00:45:02 <b_jonas> I think there is probably a solution without a global lock
00:45:22 <b_jonas> at least for large enough and sparse enough graphs; for just a dodecahedron it might not be worth
00:45:26 <zzo38> Is there a way to take two locks at once?
00:46:21 <ais523> b_jonas: I'm interested in a case that's generalized in several directions and is probably unsolvable, this was a subproblem of that that's interesting in its own right and will probably need solving first
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00:46:39 <zzo38> LLVM has a "atomicrmw" which can make some kind of atomic operations; would it do?
00:47:12 <ais523> zzo38: I've seen languages with a primitive for taking two locks at once
00:47:27 <ais523> a single atomicrmw can't do that, a double atomicrmw could but I don't know if LLVM has those
00:47:40 <ais523> (the hardware instruction backing it would be double-compare-and-swap which some CPUs have but most don't)
00:47:41 <zzo38> I think it might not, since you can't compare at the same time as the other operation
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00:51:39 <zzo38> As far as I can tell, LLVM does not have a double atomicrmw. It does have cmpxchg, though.
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01:31:32 <zzo38> I think into the bit manipulation extension for RISC-V they should add the MOR operation from MMIX and the Muxcomp operation from the esolang wiki.
01:34:01 <zzo38> MXOR could also do maybe, in addition to MOR
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01:39:21 <int-e> MXOR = PCLMULQDQ, right?
01:40:14 <zzo38> I don't know what PCLMULQDQ means
01:40:59 <int-e> packed carry-less multiplication (quad word to double quad word)
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01:56:03 <lambdabot> ENVA 250150Z 34006KT 9999 SCT024 BKN038 08/04 Q1009 RMK WIND 670FT 32008KT
01:56:34 <orin> use binary coded decimal as a basis for a character encoding
01:57:02 <orin> where two decimal digits are encoded per byte as in BCD
01:57:35 <orin> but then any pattern that is invalid is used for other characters
01:58:58 <orin> so basically that would be in hex, [0-F][A-F] and [A-F][0-9], or 6*16+6*10
01:59:41 <orin> 156 bit pattern are invalid in BCD
02:00:13 <orin> oh wait I could have just subtracted 100 from 256
02:00:25 <zzo38> Some patterns might be used in case there is only one digit in one cell, maybe
02:01:00 <orin> hmm, how did BCD handle that normally?
02:03:08 <zzo38> I think different implementations has done a few different things
02:04:47 <zzo38> Wikipedia says that telephone BCD uses a bit pattern 1 1 1 1 for padding
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03:52:07 <zzo38> Would you be able to review my sqlnetnews code to see if anything you think is wrong with it?
04:36:12 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62565&oldid=62554 * A * (+110) /* Sketch: A Turing Machine */
05:19:18 <esowiki> [[English]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62566&oldid=58334 * A * (+417) I believe that there are a shorter programs.
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05:24:16 <esowiki> [[English]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62567&oldid=62566 * A * (+152) Bootstrap
05:25:09 <esowiki> [[English]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62568&oldid=62567 * A * (+29) /* 99 Bottles of Beer */
05:26:21 <esowiki> [[English]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62569&oldid=62568 * A * (-5) /* 99 Bottles of Beer */
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05:34:29 <esowiki> [[EsoInterpreters]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62570&oldid=62314 * A * (+35) I almost forgot; bitch can simulate a UTM.
05:37:47 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62571&oldid=62565 * A * (+402) To make bootstrapping possible, you have to compile bitch first.
05:38:13 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62572&oldid=62571 * A * (+1) /* Incapability of bitch implementing Popular problems */
05:41:12 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62573&oldid=62572 * A * (+193) /* Incapability of bitch implementing Popular problems */
05:44:51 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62574&oldid=62573 * A * (+228) /* Sketch: A Turing Machine */
05:48:21 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62575&oldid=62574 * A * (+163) I still don't know the answer.
05:50:28 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62576&oldid=62575 * A * (+59) /* Sketch: A Turing Machine */
05:55:09 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62577&oldid=62576 * A * (-4) Too much indentation
06:03:08 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62578&oldid=62558 * A * (-843)
06:04:05 <esowiki> [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62579&oldid=62530 * A * (+841)
06:04:25 <esowiki> [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62580&oldid=62579 * A * (+13) /* Please do not create alternate accounts to make a point */
06:14:36 <esowiki> [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62581&oldid=62580 * A * (+302)
06:16:19 <esowiki> [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62582&oldid=62581 * A * (-209)
06:22:20 <esowiki> [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62583&oldid=62582 * A * (+57)
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06:29:12 <esowiki> [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62584&oldid=62583 * A * (+1507) Add another log with my username in it
06:47:45 <esowiki> [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62585&oldid=62584 * A * (+756)
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07:17:04 <zzo38> Wikipedia mentions such thing as synonym, homonym, heteronym, etc, but what is it called if a word has the same spelling and meaning and pronounce but the etymology is different?
07:17:55 <esowiki> [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62586&oldid=62585 * A * (-815)
07:18:15 <zzo38> They even mention what it is called if the capitalization is different, too
07:21:15 <esowiki> [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62587&oldid=62586 * A * (+649)
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08:38:14 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62588&oldid=62577 * Salpynx * (+169) /* Sketch: A Turing Machine */ D'oh, oh dear....
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09:06:46 <b_jonas> http://www.ioccc.org/2019/whowon.html 2019-05-11 The winners of the 26th IOCCC have been announced.
09:06:51 <b_jonas> I totally missed this because of the vacation
09:06:55 <b_jonas> has this been listed? let me check the logs
09:07:16 <b_jonas> `ioccclist http://www.ioccc.org/2019/whowon.html 2019-05-11 The winners of the 26th IOCCC have been announced.
09:07:17 <HackEso> ioccclist http://www.ioccc.org/2019/whowon.html 2019-05-11 The winners of the 26th IOCCC have been announced.: b_jonas
09:08:56 <b_jonas> wow, these sound interesting
09:10:03 <b_jonas> it doesn't look like it's even been mentioned on the channel, wtf
09:10:24 <b_jonas> there's no "best of show" for some reason
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10:06:10 <b_jonas> also, they say that "We plan to publish source and annotations close to June 2nd."
10:08:12 <HackEso> Defenestration is the traditional Czech system for voting out government officials.
10:08:25 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
10:08:25 <b_jonas> Decapitation is the traditional French system for voting out government officials.
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10:35:16 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62589&oldid=62588 * Salpynx * (+980) /* Incapability of bitch implementing Popular blah */
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10:47:50 <b_jonas> I wonder, what is the lowest natural number such that no pokemon has exactly that many eyes
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11:24:17 <b_jonas> hmm, http://www.madore.org/~david/programs/simple/simple.html is a language that might not be esoteric, but is named of a joke esoteric language
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11:51:15 <esowiki> [[Finite looping automaton]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62590&oldid=62557 * Salpynx * (+74) Remove erroneous claims
11:57:11 <esowiki> [[Finite looping automaton]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62591&oldid=62590 * A * (+52) Modify misleading comment.
11:57:24 <esowiki> [[Finite looping automaton]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62592&oldid=62591 * A * (-28) /* Example programs */
11:57:59 <esowiki> [[Finite looping automaton]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62593&oldid=62592 * A * (+0)
12:00:21 <esowiki> [[Finite looping automaton]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62594&oldid=62593 * A * (+212)
12:00:35 <esowiki> [[Finite looping automaton]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62595&oldid=62594 * A * (+0)
12:03:37 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62596&oldid=62589 * A * (-434) Nobody answered; I will just leave that out. This is acceptible, right?
12:05:37 <esowiki> [[Finite looping automaton]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62597&oldid=62595 * A * (+30) /* Looping counter */
12:06:32 <esowiki> [[Finite looping automaton]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62598&oldid=62597 * A * (-29)
12:09:28 <esowiki> [[Finite looping automaton]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62599&oldid=62598 * A * (+7) /* Syntax */
12:09:41 <esowiki> [[Finite looping automaton]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62600&oldid=62599 * A * (+1) /* Syntax */
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12:10:22 <esowiki> [[Finite looping automaton]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62601&oldid=62600 * A * (+5) /* Infinite loop */
12:11:12 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62602&oldid=62596 * A * (+62) /* Sketch: A Turing Machine */
12:14:15 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62603&oldid=62602 * A * (+170) /* Sketch: A Turing Machine */
12:17:06 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62604&oldid=62603 * A * (+83) /* Sketch: A Turing Machine */
12:17:55 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62605&oldid=62604 * A * (+0) /* Sketch: A Turing Machine */
12:21:47 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62606&oldid=62605 * A * (-606) int-e typed i instead of l.
12:26:09 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62607&oldid=62606 * A * (-2867)
12:33:44 <b_jonas> whoa, this language has esoteric semantics
12:37:31 <esowiki> [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62608&oldid=62587 * A * (+206)
12:47:15 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62609&oldid=62607 * Int-e * (+0) /* Sketch: A Turing Machine */ wtf, "I" is a pronoun!
12:47:57 <esowiki> [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62610&oldid=62608 * A * (-842) /* Please do not create alternate accounts to make a point */
12:49:07 <int-e> . o O ( Just when I thought A was becoming more reasonable over time. )
12:59:46 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62611&oldid=62609 * Int-e * (+93) /* Sketch: A Turing Machine */ add a clarification so that the discussion that A deleted (please don't do that, especially when other people were involved!) was not in vain.
13:02:10 <esowiki> [[Finite looping automaton]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62612&oldid=62601 * A * (+37) /* Syntax */
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14:30:22 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62613&oldid=62578 * Salpynx * (+757)
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15:23:36 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62614&oldid=62613 * A * (-757) Great, I will use this message to make my user page ridiculous.
15:23:47 <esowiki> [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62615&oldid=62610 * A * (+756)
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15:38:17 <int-e> So A's reading the IRC logs. Great.
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15:42:31 <arseniiv_> int-e: we’re famous, our names are forever on A’s page! Oh well, not forever, just until the next blanking, what a shame
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17:39:31 <zzo38> Why does the Telus television try to keep track of the current playback state in the remote control?
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18:05:06 <esowiki> [[Talk:Volatile]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62616 * TuxCrafting * (+712) Created page with "== Possibly Turing-complete? == There is a way to push 1, <code>~:/</code> (well, a non-deterministic way, but the chance for it to fail is very low in practice), and so ther..."
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18:30:01 <b_jonas_> Is there a creature (presumably an artifact creature) that has reverse wither, that is, damage dealt to it acts as wither damage, or perhaps damage dealt to it removes that many +1/+1 counters from it?
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18:32:03 <b_jonas> `card-by-name sekki, seasons
18:32:05 <HackEso> Sekki, Seasons' Guide \ 5GGG \ Legendary Creature -- Spirit \ 0/0 \ Sekki, Seasons' Guide enters the battlefield with eight +1/+1 counters on it. \ If damage would be dealt to Sekki, prevent that damage, remove that many +1/+1 counters from Sekki, and create that many 1/1 colorless Spirit creature tokens. \ Sacrifice eight Spirits: Return Sekki from your graveyard to the battlefield. \ SOK-R
18:32:19 <b_jonas> that's like a hydra too, adding +1/+1 counters
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18:49:33 <b_jonas> why is the text box of Goatnap slanted?
18:51:24 <b_jonas> it's just a scanning error in scryfall
19:05:44 <zzo38> If I write a NNTP client software, what do you suggest I will call it?
19:07:01 <zzo38> b_jonas: To your question about how many eyes a pokemon has, my brother suggested five but is unsure.
19:21:08 <zzo38> One idea of Magic: the Gathering card: {?} Enchantment - Aura ;; Enchant damageable ;; At the beginning of each upkeep, ~ deals 1 damage to enchanted damageable. ;; Lifelink
19:32:52 <b_jonas> zzo38: what's a damageable
19:33:40 <b_jonas> also, they're reprinting Snow-covered Plains, though it's not clear to me in what number of copies
19:35:18 <zzo38> A damageable is a player, planeswalker, or creature, just as though instead of "any target" it says "target damageable" (I don't like "any target", and also, "damageable" is no longer limited to "target"; it means the same thing)
19:36:25 <b_jonas> well, that looks interesting, because it could be blue or black
19:36:34 <b_jonas> it has lifelink? then I'm not sure it can be blue
19:36:49 <b_jonas> it would be more interesting if it could somehow be done in blue
19:37:16 <b_jonas> well, it could work well in black
19:38:19 <zzo38> It could be altered as needed, I suppose
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20:43:46 <HackEso> 10//10 = 10 in every base.
20:43:47 <HackEso> 566) (Of Minecraft:) <elliott> So basically I didn't understand what it was at all, I thought maybe you were meant to be like a worm and just sort of wriggle about underground.
20:44:06 <HackEso> madness//madness lies thataway.
20:44:10 <HackEso> 194) <oklopol> oerjan: also actually A(4, 4) is larger than any other integer, i learned this the other day when i was reading about this algo, it had complexity O(n a^-1(n)) = O(n a^-1(4))
20:44:11 <HackEso> via Meal-Master (tm) v8.05 \ \ Title: CHICKEN BEANS MUFFINS \ Categories: Salads, Chicken, Sauces \ Yield: 8 Servings \ \ 1 tb Fresh lemon juice \ 1/4 ts Pepper, or dough \ 1/4 ts Salt \ 2 ea Garlic cloves, peeled, cooked, thinly \ -- sliced \ 1 c Flour \ 1/2 c Margarine; melted \ Beer -- chopped \ Pepper, seeded and \ -- chopped \ \ Serve with whipped cream ends of honey. Nutrition of each, peaches \ \ MMMMM \ \ MMMMM----- Reci
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21:31:41 <zzo38> Do you ave a suggestion of a name of a NNTP client software? (I can provide details if requested)
21:32:55 <b_jonas> zzo38: "Nûwsreader", because it's a character name in http://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/1765.html ?
21:33:08 <b_jonas> or is that too much of an in-joke?
21:34:31 <b_jonas> or Bystander, who is the character in the bobadventures webcomic who reads newspaper the most often -- either him or Bob himself, I'm not sure
21:35:34 <b_jonas> or Bob because he's the one who sells the newspapers to readers, analogously to how your software gives the news to its users -- except that's no good, there's already a software called Microsoft Bob
21:36:20 <zzo38> It isn't too much of an in-joke, but contains non-ASCII characters and may be too similar to "newsreader"
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21:47:31 <zzo38> Maybe "bystand" will do; no program by that name can be found in any package on my computer
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22:42:13 <HackEso> kmc did not run the International Devious Code Contest of 2013.
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23:43:52 <esowiki> [[User:Timtomtoaster]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62617&oldid=60181 * Orangeyy * (+0)
23:45:21 <zzo38> What is the correct way to receive a line from a socket? Should MSG_PEEK be used?
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01:37:23 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62618&oldid=62611 * A * (+725) Paste the discussion here due to "request".
01:38:35 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62619&oldid=62618 * A * (-222) Less wordier discussions
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01:40:37 <esowiki> [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62620&oldid=62615 * A * (+22)
01:45:26 <esowiki> [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62621&oldid=62620 * A * (+59)
01:45:50 <esowiki> [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62622&oldid=62621 * A * (-78) /* Julie Andrews */
01:50:43 <esowiki> [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62623&oldid=62622 * A * (+578) Add another negative comment
01:52:05 <zzo38> Using MSG_PEEK to find out where the line ends, and then receiving it again this time with MSG_WAITALL, seems to work fine as far as I can tell so far.
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01:54:31 <esowiki> [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62624&oldid=62623 * A * (+616) Break my rule to add positive comments
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02:21:29 <esowiki> [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62625&oldid=62624 * A * (+163)
02:22:12 <esowiki> [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62626&oldid=62625 * A * (-719) Make the contest fairer
02:22:19 <esowiki> [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62627&oldid=62626 * A * (-678) /* Julie Andrews */
02:22:40 <esowiki> [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62628&oldid=62627 * A * (-6)
02:25:04 <esowiki> [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62629&oldid=61480 * A * (+153)
02:25:33 <esowiki> [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62630&oldid=62629 * A * (+1) /* Computational Class */
02:26:27 <kmc> zzo38: I think most programs would buffer and separately take lines from that buffer
02:26:37 <kmc> but your solution seems basically fine too
02:27:08 <esowiki> [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62631&oldid=62630 * A * (+28) /* Java implementation */
02:28:50 <esowiki> [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62632&oldid=62631 * A * (+17) /* Computational Class */
02:39:01 <esowiki> [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62633&oldid=62628 * A * (+170) Add description
02:43:48 <int-e> fungot: are you famous?
02:43:48 <fungot> int-e: mr president, i would remind us all of what we have to deplore and condemn it at every election. the responsibility for not vetoing it. that is why mr pimenta invited me to do but which they feel " will create substantial pressure on social security for migrant workers. seventh: barriers to the internal market was a relatively easy measure to implement the internal market.
02:48:14 <esowiki> [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62634&oldid=62633 * A * (-23)
02:49:17 <esowiki> [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62635&oldid=62634 * A * (+39)
02:51:50 <esowiki> [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62636&oldid=62635 * A * (+43)
02:52:12 <esowiki> [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62637&oldid=62636 * A * (-71)
03:21:25 <esowiki> [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62638&oldid=62632 * A * (+76)
03:22:11 <esowiki> [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62639&oldid=62638 * A * (+21)
03:22:37 <esowiki> [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62640&oldid=62639 * A * (+20) Specify
03:23:26 <esowiki> [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62641&oldid=62640 * A * (-16) No, otherwise it will not compile to P''.
03:25:25 <esowiki> [[Talk:Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62642&oldid=62616 * A * (+286)
03:25:45 <esowiki> [[Talk:Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62643&oldid=62642 * A * (+1) I made a mess.
03:47:40 <esowiki> [[Eodermdrome]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62644&oldid=59661 * Salpynx * (+130) /* Implementations */ add Clojure interpreter on github
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04:02:51 <esowiki> [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62645&oldid=62637 * A * (-1)
04:03:42 <esowiki> [[Eodermdrome]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62646&oldid=62644 * Salpynx * (+339) add "see also" and good blog post link
04:24:45 <esowiki> [[Talk:Volatile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62647&oldid=62643 * TuxCrafting * (+227)
04:29:35 <esowiki> [[Talk:Volatile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62648&oldid=62647 * TuxCrafting * (+261)
04:31:23 <esowiki> [[Volatile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62649&oldid=62641 * TuxCrafting * (-47)
04:42:12 <esowiki> [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62650&oldid=62645 * A * (-400)
04:44:04 <esowiki> [[Talk:Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62651&oldid=62648 * A * (+173) /* Possibly Turing-complete? */
04:44:58 <esowiki> [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62652&oldid=62649 * A * (-10) Partial undo revision 62649 by [[Special:Contributions/TuxCrafting|TuxCrafting]] ([[User talk:TuxCrafting|talk]])
04:45:35 <esowiki> [[Talk:Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62653&oldid=62651 * A * (+0)
04:47:54 <esowiki> [[Talk:Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62654&oldid=62653 * A * (+174) /* Possibly Turing-complete? */
04:53:14 <esowiki> [[Talk:Volatile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62655&oldid=62654 * TuxCrafting * (+162)
04:58:44 <esowiki> [[Eodermdrome]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62656&oldid=62646 * Salpynx * (+143) /* Example programs */ Add link to my +-= 'interpreter' / decimal counter, written in Eodermdrome
05:03:06 <esowiki> [[Talk:Volatile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62657&oldid=62655 * TuxCrafting * (+317)
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05:22:53 <esowiki> [[Talk:Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62658&oldid=62657 * A * (+151) /* Possibly Turing-complete? */
05:25:26 <esowiki> [[Talk:Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62659&oldid=62658 * A * (+148) I got the algorithm wrong
05:26:06 <esowiki> [[Talk:Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62660&oldid=62659 * A * (+11) /* Possibly Turing-complete? */
05:26:51 <esowiki> [[Talk:Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62661&oldid=62660 * A * (+6)
05:27:18 <esowiki> [[Talk:Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62662&oldid=62661 * A * (-2) /* Possibly Turing-complete? */
05:31:21 <esowiki> [[Talk:Volatile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62663&oldid=62662 * TuxCrafting * (+227)
05:35:35 <esowiki> [[Talk:Volatile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62664&oldid=62663 * TuxCrafting * (+244)
05:37:56 <esowiki> [[EsoInterpreters]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62665&oldid=62570 * A * (-35) Undo revision 62570 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]]): bitch cannot <u>interpret</u> the UTM, though.
05:38:36 <esowiki> [[Finite looping automaton]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62666&oldid=62612 * TuxCrafting * (+3) grammar fix
05:42:28 <esowiki> [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62667&oldid=62652 * A * (+96) /* Number tricks */
05:42:56 <esowiki> [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62668&oldid=62667 * A * (+6) /* Computational Class */
05:43:33 <esowiki> [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62669&oldid=62668 * A * (+5) /* Number tricks */
05:44:13 <esowiki> [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62670&oldid=62669 * A * (+20) /* Syntax */
05:44:46 <esowiki> [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62671&oldid=62670 * A * (-1)
05:49:28 <esowiki> [[Talk:Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62672&oldid=62664 * A * (+179) /* Provided interpreter */
05:50:44 <esowiki> [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62673&oldid=62671 * A * (+78) Inspired by Keg
06:04:02 <esowiki> [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62674&oldid=62673 * A * (+30) /* Examples */
06:07:08 <esowiki> [[Talk:Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62675&oldid=62672 * A * (+135) /* Possibly Turing-complete? */
06:09:04 <esowiki> [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62676&oldid=62674 * A * (-1)
06:10:26 <esowiki> [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62677&oldid=62676 * A * (+6) /* Number tricks */
06:13:51 <esowiki> [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62678&oldid=62677 * A * (+2) The Java implementation does not count; it does not conform the spec
06:29:44 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: qutoe: not found
06:29:46 <HackEso> 91) <alise> like, just like I'd mark "Bob knob hobs deathly poop violation EXCREMENT unto;" as English <ais523> alise: that's great filler <alise> ais523: well it contains all the important words in the english language...
06:29:56 <HackEso> 740) <Lumpio-> STOP CAPITALIZING <Lumpio-> It's making me feel weird <shubshub> the I has to be capitilized its proper grammer
06:30:02 <HackEso> 539) <monqy> did you know: gravity was inspired by apples
06:30:08 <HackEso> 1087) <boily> I prefer goat memory. I feel it's more reliable, like a vinyl over a CD.
06:30:14 <HackEso> 1076) <+kmc> Harry Potter and the Tyranny of Structurelessness
06:30:21 <HackEso> 1279) <zzo38> Why does my computer support only one colormap? <oerjan> because it's meta-racist
06:30:26 <HackEso> 1301) <Gregor> No, I'm not alive, stop imagining I'm alive.
06:30:29 <HackEso> 639) <Gregor> pikhq: And of course Rick Perry, saying that there's something wrong with a country where gays can serve in the military but we don't elect a douchebag as president.
06:30:34 <HackEso> 312) <ZOMGMODULES> Felix's home page and Falcon's home page are actually the same page
06:37:45 <HackEso> 829) <shachaf> Bike: Your client colours people? <Bike> it would be pretty boring to see everyone as white, i get that enough in real life
06:44:22 <HackEso> 87) <fungot> alise: why internet is like wtf
06:53:58 <esowiki> [[Hello]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62679&oldid=62534 * A * (-6) /* Interpreter */
06:54:28 <esowiki> [[Hello]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62680&oldid=62679 * A * (+0) /* Interpreter */
06:56:19 <esowiki> [[Hello]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62681&oldid=62680 * A * (-7) /* Interpreter */
07:08:28 <HackEso> 556) <Ngevd> "Unlike other operating systems, Linux operating systems use Linux"
07:08:32 <HackEso> 758) <elliott> I couldn't survive an apocalypse. I don't even have any bitcoins.
07:08:35 <HackEso> 590) <Ngevd> Somehow I managed to read Haskell as Befunge
07:08:38 <HackEso> 209) <zzo38> ais523: Maybe it is better, because I don't think the octopus will live very well in the tree. But the difference is that the Internet is lying and you cannot see such things; you could make modified picture, though, in order to lie more clearly, at least.
07:08:59 <HackEso> 1206) <zzo38> Syntax highlighting is: sender in cyan, command in bright white, parameters in normal white, long parameters in bright blue (except for the preceding colon) <coppro> wait, you read IRC raw? <zzo38> It isn't quite raw; it is in colors.
07:09:12 <esowiki> [[Hello]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62682&oldid=62681 * A * (+124) /* Interpreter */
07:09:22 <HackEso> 707) <shachaf> Free as in unregistered, not free as in lunch or speech.
07:09:27 <HackEso> 704) <zzo38> I think we are sort of this insane, and also sort of not as much as insane, and also sort of a bit more insane than that, and also somewhat more various other thing at various times whatever you are discussing at that time
07:09:33 <HackEso> 923) <fungot> but when she saw him fnord and fnord. and then there's the fnord, as well as fnord reading sauce with fish, or fnord, that alice quite fnord for it hadn't spoken before.
07:09:37 <HackEso> 617) <oklopol> also who it a tome, a small one
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07:10:53 <esowiki> [[Hello]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62683&oldid=62682 * A * (-73) /* Interpreter */
07:11:10 <shachaf> the other day someone said "free as in use-after"
07:14:07 <esowiki> [[Hello]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62684&oldid=62683 * A * (+66) /* Interpreter */
07:16:00 <esowiki> [[Hello]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62685&oldid=62684 * A * (-73) /* Interpreter */
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07:18:20 <esowiki> [[Hello]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62686&oldid=62685 * A * (-1) Deleted an extra character
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07:40:53 <esowiki> [[Hello]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62687&oldid=62686 * A * (+84) /* Interpreter */
07:49:45 <esowiki> [[Hello]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62688&oldid=62687 * A * (-42) /* Interpreter */
07:55:22 <esowiki> [[Volatile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62689&oldid=62678 * JonoCode9374 * (+862) Added a python interpreter
07:56:15 <esowiki> [[Volatile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62690&oldid=62689 * A * (+25)
08:01:19 <esowiki> [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62691&oldid=62690 * A * (-8) A newline is fine.
08:14:00 <esowiki> [[Talk:Volatile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62692&oldid=62675 * JonoCode9374 * (+317) /* Output Methods */ new section
08:15:19 <esowiki> [[Volatile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62693&oldid=62691 * JonoCode9374 * (+198) /* Examples */ -> Print "Hi"
08:30:18 <esowiki> [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62694&oldid=62693 * A * (+80) /* Syntax */
08:36:23 <esowiki> [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62695&oldid=62694 * A * (+47) Python interpreter counts
08:36:38 <esowiki> [[EsoInterpreters]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62696&oldid=62665 * JonoCode9374 * (+407) Added Keg as an implementing language
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08:39:12 <esowiki> [[Talk:Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62697&oldid=62692 * A * (+197) /* Output Methods */
08:39:24 <esowiki> [[Talk:Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62698&oldid=62697 * A * (+1) /* Output Methods */
08:45:46 <esowiki> [[Talk:Volatile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62699&oldid=62698 * TuxCrafting * (+1130)
08:46:31 <HackEso> 1 c Sugar \ 1/4 c Shredded coconut \ 1/4 ts Cumin seeds \ \ Preheat oven to 350. In a medium bowl, combine milk, the sugar, vanilla and seasoned \ flour and water and then cornstarch. add tomatoes, oregano, and \ nutmeg; serve. \ \ MMMMM \ \ MMMMM----- Recipe via Meal-Master (tm) v8.05 \ \ Title: CHINESE MEAT OF 2 OR. SALAD \ Categories: Chinese, Candies, Fat \ Yield: 1 Servings \ \ Unsweetened chocolate canned \ 1 Medium potatoes \
08:46:36 <esowiki> [[Talk:Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62700&oldid=62699 * TuxCrafting * (+7)
08:46:36 <HackEso> R2-D2 \ Admiral Crix Madine \ Lor San Tekka \ Rose Tico \ Jyn Erso
08:47:57 <shachaf> Has someone suggested to A to make more substantial edits rather than dozens and dozens of tiny ones?
08:48:59 <esowiki> [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62701&oldid=62695 * A * (+2697) /* Display the word "Hi" */
08:50:40 <esowiki> [[Volatile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62702&oldid=62701 * A * (+27) /* Hello, world! program */
08:50:43 <int-e> shachaf: they cite this on their user page: 00:21:49 <int-e> oerjan: A's microedits are annoying. and sometimes disruptive...
08:51:48 <shachaf> That userpage seems pretty trolly.
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08:52:07 <int-e> Yeah it reminds me of how hard it was to be 13 years of age.
08:52:37 <int-e> With all the world against me ;-)
08:53:24 <shachaf> I was that age in the past and I don't believe I did that kind of thing.
08:54:00 <int-e> Well, I didn't have Internet access at that age.
08:54:11 <b_jonas> int-e: and how hard it may be to be less than 13 years of age _now_, when all online services ban you from using it just because of your age. imagine living in an age when everything happens on the internet, but not being allowed to use it. you can't even register an email address, or an account practically required to use the operating system of your phone.
08:54:20 <shachaf> One thing I remember is being quite annoyed when people treated me differently for being that age. For example by making excuses for me, or being impressed by unimpressive things.
08:54:30 <int-e> I'm also being facetious to some extend. At least I'd like to believe that I am.
08:54:32 <esowiki> [[EsoInterpreters]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62703&oldid=62696 * A * (+453) Hey!
08:55:59 <b_jonas> we didn't have any of that back when I was 13 years of age. heck, when I was aged 16, the rules that people under age of 18 can't buy tobacco or alcoholic drinks in shops were pretty new and nobody took them seriously yet. I could drink, and I could have smoked, and nobody would find 18 years to be the magical threshold.
08:56:30 <shachaf> In retrospect maybe I should've taken advantage of people being impressed by unimpressive things and being unreasonably helpful.
08:56:34 <b_jonas> mind you, even now people under 18 years of age can drink and smoke, they just aren't allowed to buy alcohol or tobacco anywhere, and that's more or less enforced.
08:57:13 <shachaf> The world is a cold uncaring place, y'know, you gotta get every advantage you can.
08:57:46 <int-e> shachaf: you may be right. otoh there's a lot of value in being taken seriously, as a confidence boost.
08:57:49 <b_jonas> shachaf: you don't realize how cold uncaring it is while you're a child if you're in a good family and reasonable school
08:58:34 <int-e> (that remark was about taking advantage of the generosity of strangers)
08:59:29 <shachaf> I'm probably putting too cynical a spin on it.
09:00:00 <int-e> And heck, it can be fun to teach somebody who's visibly learning and improving.
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09:00:42 <esowiki> [[EsoInterpreters]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62704&oldid=62703 * A * (-453) You should call it "bitch", despite the fact that it is insulting... it is the language name.
09:03:15 <int-e> b_jonas: it's funny but I don't see what smoking and drinking have to do with being an adult, except legally.
09:03:16 <b_jonas> int-e: sure, that's why we're all on irc
09:03:36 <b_jonas> we come here to either learn something, or teach other people something back to give back all the help we've got on irc
09:03:38 <shachaf> I would certainly prefer respect over condescension or pity or whatever.
09:04:03 <b_jonas> and if we're lucky, we also run into a good community
09:04:06 <int-e> shachaf: . o O ( I also thought that when I was your age. )
09:04:46 <b_jonas> int-e: you're older than shachaf?
09:05:33 <shachaf> whoa, int-e knows when I was born?
09:05:40 <shachaf> That's supposed to be confidential information.
09:05:47 <shachaf> Though I haven't done a good job of keeping it that way.
09:05:50 <b_jonas> shachaf: no, probably only a bound
09:05:52 <esowiki> [[Talk:Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62705&oldid=62700 * TuxCrafting * (+4) what is english
09:06:08 <shachaf> Well, time is continuous, you can only ever measure it with a bound.
09:06:24 <b_jonas> iirc you can find out how old I am from the channel logs
09:06:44 <int-e> Hmm maybe I'm not 100% sure. :)
09:07:03 <shachaf> Time for the millionaire protocol.
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09:08:40 <shachaf> By the way, someone told me a protocol which was significantly simpler than the standard socialist millionaire protocol, and claimed it solved the problem of verifying that two people were thinking of the same number.
09:09:15 <int-e> Let's say I was born before 1980 :) that should be good enough for this.
09:10:29 <int-e> You can do something analogous to DH?
09:10:39 <shachaf> It did a thing analogous to DH, yep.
09:11:09 <shachaf> I can't remember what it was called.
09:11:34 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: witchcraft: not found
09:12:06 <int-e> I imagine something like this: Agree on a random modulus modulo m a large (safe) prime p, compute m^H(x) mod p where x is your number and H is a hash function, compare to m^H(y), where y is the other party's number.
09:12:39 <int-e> Repeat with different hashes if you are unhappy with accidental matches.
09:12:46 <b_jonas> I don't understand how some of these crazy protocols can work
09:13:04 <int-e> (without the hash, you could afterwards check whether ax = by for given integers a and b)
09:13:40 <esowiki> [[Talk:Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62706&oldid=62705 * A * (+2) Group the operators
09:13:48 <b_jonas> int-e: um, how does that exclude that the other party tries with all likely values of x and compares the result you tell?
09:13:57 <int-e> b_jonas: p is too big
09:14:08 <int-e> b_jonas: so that's infeasible.
09:14:50 <b_jonas> I don't understand this protocol
09:15:27 <shachaf> That's not quite the protocol my friend described.
09:15:30 <shachaf> Let me see if I can remember.
09:15:36 <b_jonas> I mean, how does it exclude a replay where the other person tries to redo this for multiple different versions of y
09:15:38 <int-e> b_jonas: oh I see what you mean, yes it needs some tweaking for that, hmm.
09:16:08 <int-e> b_jonas: I was assuming that x and y are also large in themselves, which is silly...
09:16:11 <rain1> I think there may be a fundamental obstraction to symmetry in these kinds of protocols
09:16:36 <rain1> often one player gets perfect security and the other player gets n-bit security
09:17:35 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPEKE
09:19:56 <int-e> Aha. That uses more DH. :)
09:20:13 <rain1> I guess what i said is wrong for the Diffie-Hellman based ones
09:20:24 <rain1> but it applied to the problem of intersecting two bitsets
09:20:40 <shachaf> I think there's an extra step past what's described there where I give you H("A"++K) and you give me H("B"++k) or something.
09:20:56 <esowiki> [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62707&oldid=62702 * A * (+6) /* Java implementation */
09:21:01 <shachaf> Which is unfortunately asymmetric because one of us has to send it first?
09:21:04 <int-e> (I'll console myself with the fact that I recognized the importance of hashing the numbers :-))
09:21:33 <shachaf> Anyway, this protocol is quite simple, and the socialist millionaire protocol seems very complicated.
09:21:55 <shachaf> So what's the advantage of the complicated one?
09:22:22 <int-e> "A passive attacker doesn't lear whether x = y."
09:22:34 <int-e> (paraphrased from wikipedia)
09:23:08 <int-e> b_jonas: this happens when you treat cryptographic protocols as a puzzle... you come up with flawed solutions :)
09:23:27 <int-e> (At least in my case. I'm *not* a cryptographer.)
09:23:29 <b_jonas> int-e: sadly it also comes up when people try to use crypto seriously in production, not as a puzzle
09:23:41 <int-e> shachaf: K is communicated by both parties.
09:23:55 <int-e> shachaf: So an eavesdropper can do the comparison.
09:24:10 <b_jonas> cryptography is dangerous, you have to pay someone competent to do it, or at least pay them to tell you that your design is wrong
09:24:33 <int-e> shachaf: how else are the parties comparing the two Ks?
09:25:00 <b_jonas> shachaf: I still don't understand how that's supposed to work
09:25:00 <esowiki> [[Talk:Volatile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62708&oldid=62706 * JonoCode9374 * (+135) /* Output Methods */
09:25:06 <shachaf> The way I described, by hashing them?
09:25:33 <shachaf> Doesn't sending K defeat the whole protocol?
09:26:11 <int-e> Ah, what you described up there. Hmm.
09:27:39 <esowiki> [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62709&oldid=62707 * A * (+172) /* Examples */
09:28:03 <esowiki> [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62710&oldid=62709 * A * (+0) Oops
09:28:57 <b_jonas> perhaps my hon. and learned friend fungot wants to add something to the campaign statements you told us yesterday, before I leave for the voting chambers?
09:28:58 <fungot> b_jonas: i am, however, the globalisation of financial markets. in the case of joseph o'dell, and with us in doing battle for the new citizens of the european parliament and the council on the basis of democracy.
09:29:37 <shachaf> I think int-e's real contention is that my behavior is or has been too immature to have been born before 1980.
09:29:40 <esowiki> [[User:JonoCode9374]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62711&oldid=61776 * JonoCode9374 * (+170) Added something I've learnt
09:29:54 <b_jonas> the only champion of democracy, protecting us from the evil forces who threaten it, that's what you always want to paint yourself, don't you, my hon. and learned friend fungot
09:29:56 <fungot> b_jonas: mr president, the question of the legitimacy in international trade, especially in the context of the internal market, which will take place, at community level. with this in mind and we should be ready to accept, and why we are now awaiting the commission's proposal for a new millennium round, which contradicted the very principle of preferential agreements that the council will support the latter view. it comes late
09:30:36 <b_jonas> oh, now that is more informative
09:31:01 <b_jonas> so you want to encourage international trade at the community level, such as individual people ordering small electronics from the far east through ebay?
09:31:47 <esowiki> [[Volatile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62712&oldid=62710 * TuxCrafting * (+41)
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09:33:34 <b_jonas> with its striped brown pattern, the building of the state archives in Amsterdam looks like it's made of wafers. it's so appetizing, perhaps more so than the gingerbread house of the witch
09:34:02 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl* ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
09:34:34 <fungot> Selected style: pa (around 1200 transcribed Penny Arcade comics)
09:34:41 <shachaf> What? I wanted Peano Arithmetic.
09:34:55 <fungot> Selected style: discworld (a subset of Terry Pratchett's Discworld books)
09:35:04 <fungot> shachaf: ' a mixture of fnord and violence. but, well, when i worked for my brother-in-law, fnord. the silicon anti-defamation league had been going on for some time afterwards.'
09:36:02 <shachaf> fizzie: Shouldn't there be an Illuminatus! trilogy style?
09:36:34 <b_jonas> don't change it! the europarl elevtion is not over yet
09:36:51 <b_jonas> other people may want to ask questions to the candidates
09:36:54 <shachaf> Which means you can get plenty of the real thing.
09:46:28 <b_jonas> yes, I'll go cast a real vote in a few hours. with good old paper trail, no fancy cryptographical protocols.
09:53:45 <b_jonas> although there is sort of a cryptographical element
09:54:44 <b_jonas> to cast the vote, I use the pen provided, which feels wrong, because I prefer to use a nice fancy pen for important stuff like this, but the vote is supposed to be anonymous, so it's preferable to have my ballot be as unrecognizable and generic as possible
09:56:22 -!- LKoen has joined.
09:58:06 <shachaf> bring enough nice fancy pens for everyone
10:01:46 -!- arseniiv has joined.
10:02:23 <b_jonas> shachaf: I'd have had to arrive there six hours before for that, and even then I don't know if it's allowed for me to do that
10:02:27 <fizzie> shachaf: Maybe. I'd need an electronic copy of the text though.
10:03:28 <shachaf> kmc gave me a printed copy of the text
10:03:32 <shachaf> it contains many electrons
10:03:54 <fizzie> I've got a printed copy as well.
10:04:38 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
10:04:42 <shachaf> You can have all the electrons out of mine if you want.
10:04:59 -!- LKoen has joined.
10:06:17 <fizzie> I should get mosh set up, this train wifi disconnects TCP connections every time it either stops at a station or starts moving again.
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10:11:59 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined.
10:24:41 <int-e> shachaf: AFAICS that socialist millionaire's protocol relies solely on discrete logs/computational Diffie-Hellman... in particular the description in the OTR protocol remarks that the quantity h^{\alpha\beta a b} cannot be computed by either party using the information transmitted in the protocol, making it effectively a random element modulo p, so no information about (x-y) beyond equality is...
10:27:33 <int-e> b_jonas: hmm, you think otherwise?
10:28:38 <shachaf> You mean it doesn't rely on a hash?
10:28:47 <int-e> SPEKE has stronger, less well researched, assumptions.
10:29:17 <shachaf> I feel like a cryptography hash isn't that strong an assumption?
10:30:06 <int-e> (Of DH's x |-> x^a (mod p) has a lot of the relevant properties of a hash function, being a random permutation.)
10:30:18 <int-e> err pseudo-random.
10:30:56 <int-e> shachaf: Oh but SPEKE is also murky on the discrete log side... it's not a clearcut instance of DH.
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10:31:12 <b_jonas> int-e: no, it's just that it's funny to say that a protocol relies "solely" on something as strong as a public key cryptography primitive.
10:31:49 <b_jonas> DH is a stronger assumption than a one-way function
10:32:04 <b_jonas> possibly still weaker than a full public-key crypto, but still
10:32:25 <int-e> b_jonas: No, it's not odd at all. "solely" means that there's nothing else, not that the thing referred to is insignifcant.
10:32:30 <b_jonas> to me the distinction goes between whether you use only symmetric crypto, and when you need public key crypto too
10:32:57 <shachaf> i,i what kind of coin is that?
10:33:48 <b_jonas> even if RSA or DH is a funnier thing to explain as a popular mathematics bling than any symmetric crypto stuff
10:34:01 <shachaf> Do you like this, where this is Lamport signatures?
10:34:13 <b_jonas> `hello darkness, my old friend
10:34:38 <shachaf> `hi darkness, my old friend
10:34:39 <HackEso> Hi darkness, my old friend. Harkness, my old friend.
10:35:06 <int-e> Playing 08 The Sounds Of Silence.ogg.
10:35:38 <shachaf> that song is from way before 08 hth
10:35:55 <int-e> shachaf: it's number 08 on that particular best of album.
10:37:44 <shachaf> Oh, you're playing The Sounds of Silence.
10:37:48 <shachaf> Maybe that song is from 08.
10:39:10 -!- LKoen has joined.
10:39:49 <int-e> Probably not, but I've never noticed that extra 's' before. (Especially since the lyrics mix singular and plural? Or is it this version...)
10:41:22 <int-e> shachaf: It's more complicated: '"The Sound of Silence", originally "The Sounds of Silence", is a song by the American music duo Simon & Garfunkel.'
10:42:25 <HackEso> 263) <tswett> Of course, "b" is clearly just "pv". <tswett> Say "pvottle". It will sound... similar to exactly the same as "bottle". \ 290) <olsner> boston cream pie? sounds related to a cleveland steamer \ 298) [on Sgeo's karaoke] <not_nddrylliog> Sgeo: awesome <not_nddrylliog> sounds like a japan anime sound track \ 385) <SgeoN1> No nasty sounds for a while now. Going to turn off and on and see if the numbers get worse. \ 432) <Taneb> Well, I'm now ex
10:42:33 <b_jonas> oh wait, the film is called "The Sound of Music", not "The Sound of Silence"
10:42:59 <HackEso> 2/4:ow experimenting with clients <fizzie> It doesn't sound like good PR to say that out loud. \ 605) <ais523> also, why isn't monqy from Hexham? his name sounds like he should be \ 734) <kmc> i saw Godspeed You! Black Emperor live <kmc> it is hard to tell when the soundcheck ends and the set begins \ 789) <elliott> this sounds sort of like @ kmc <kmc> well @ is the least upper bound of all ideas in computer science \ 799) <HackEgo> 499) <zzo38> What i
10:43:22 <shachaf> I wonder why, when I run a program with posix_spawn instead of fork/exec, it wraps somewhat differently in the terminal.
10:43:34 <shachaf> Unfortunately I don't care quite enough to find out.
10:46:04 <shachaf> Well, the formatting is somehow different, when I run ls.
10:47:35 <shachaf> Different number of columns.
10:49:19 <b_jonas> shachaf: you can use ls -1 to force one column, ls -C to force multiple columns, and the COLUMNS variable will probably tell how many cells wide ls will format the multi-column output
10:49:43 <int-e> shachaf: perhaps a silly question, but what are you passing for envp?
10:49:54 <b_jonas> so eg. run (COLUMNS=132 ls -C) if you want to print the output to a 132-column printer
10:49:56 <shachaf> Aha. I just worked it out.
10:50:04 <shachaf> posix_spawn is indeed running with an empty environment.
10:50:10 <shachaf> I'm surprised anything worked.
10:50:28 <b_jonas> shachaf: yeah, we often feel that way in modern computing
10:51:12 <b_jonas> heck, in my job my current task is to try to get some stupid third-party mess of a software working, and I don't think I'll succeed
10:51:26 <b_jonas> all I can do is run installers at random and get uninformative error messages
10:51:38 <shachaf> So what are you supposed to do?
10:51:53 -!- sebbu3 has changed nick to sebbu.
10:51:53 <shachaf> I see some examples that do "char **environ;".
10:52:04 <int-e> that seems to be the task: run installers at random and hope it works
10:53:09 <b_jonas> I'm getting three "connection failed" error message popups at bootup now, with no detail on what connection to what failed
10:53:49 <shachaf> Is using a magic global variable the standard way to do this?
10:53:54 <int-e> shachaf: hmm. `man environ` agrees with that... but doesn't have a "CONFORMING TO" section :-(
10:55:15 <int-e> (defining _GNU_SOURCE and using <unistd.h> would look better)
10:55:50 <b_jonas> the archæological museum in Leiden was awesome by the way. it's the archæological museum with the second largest exhibition I've ever seen (this may change when I go to London). it has _three_ egyptian sanctums rebuilt inside the building
10:56:21 <b_jonas> int-e: the gnu libc info documentation may tell some details
10:56:27 <int-e> shachaf: http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/basedefs/V1_chap08.html#tag_08
10:56:35 <shachaf> But I don't want _GNU_SOURCE!
10:56:36 <int-e> so it's posix, by all appearances.
10:56:59 <shachaf> So does setenv actually modify that array?
10:57:25 <shachaf> Maybe I'll show them by not using libc at all.
10:57:25 <b_jonas> int-e: https://www.gnu.org/software/libc/manual/html_node/Environment-Access.html#index-environ
10:57:48 <shachaf> I'll write my own entry point that just gets the environment right from the place ELF or whatever specifies.
10:57:53 <b_jonas> it says "This variable is declared in the header file unistd.h", and also about the third parameter to main
10:58:26 <int-e> b_jonas: that is not in agreement with the manpage.
10:58:52 <int-e> "([The environ] variable must be declared in the user program, but is declared in the header file <unistd.h> if the _GNU_SOURCE feature test macro is defined.)"
10:59:40 <shachaf> OK, now ls is well-behaved.
11:00:31 <shachaf> I guess I'll go back to posix_spawnp.
11:01:47 <shachaf> I feel like the posix_spawn interface is way too complicated, though.
11:02:38 <int-e> b_jonas: and experimentally, the manpage is right.
11:02:47 <shachaf> It consists of... 21 functions.
11:02:57 <b_jonas> why are you even spawning ls?
11:03:06 <b_jonas> or is that just to test the swamp?
11:03:16 <shachaf> I mean, I'm usually spawning other commands, but I was testing with ls and even that behaved badly.
11:03:44 <int-e> posix_spawn_file_actions_adddup2 <-- no further questions, your honor.
11:04:02 <shachaf> When did people start writing all their APIs like api_thing_t *x = api_malloc_my_thing(); api_set_thing_blah(x, 1); api_set_thing_blam(x, 2); ?
11:04:24 <shachaf> Instead of just using s a struct and maybe a version number or sizeof or something for ABI compatibility?
11:04:38 <int-e> (I understand it... everything that you might want to do between fork and exec has to be supported.)
11:04:51 <b_jonas> shachaf: since you want a C interface with binary compatibility decades into the future
11:05:05 <b_jonas> struct with version number... could work, sure
11:05:09 <int-e> shachaf: OO is good for you! Embrace it!
11:05:11 <shachaf> Look at this nonsense: https://www.alsa-project.org/alsa-doc/alsa-lib/group___p_c_m___h_w___params.html
11:05:17 <int-e> And in C, that's what OO looks like.
11:05:26 <shachaf> I was writing ALSA code and it's just such a mess.
11:06:02 <shachaf> What happened to writing functions that accept data as argument?
11:06:37 <int-e> Also this way you can write hundreds of lines of code without thinking too much. It's, a huge productivity boost.
11:06:56 <b_jonas> shachaf: just be happy it's not one of those setter functions that take an argument with variable type, using C ... prototype, like setsockopt or the curl functions
11:07:11 <b_jonas> those are great ways to get silent type errors
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11:07:30 <shachaf> Also what's the deal with APIs that malloc things just because their size might change in the future?
11:08:12 <shachaf> https://tronche.com/gui/x/xlib/ICC/client-to-window-manager/XAllocSizeHints.html
11:08:17 <b_jonas> (and make sure it doesn't malloc things to get an aligned data storage on old C)
11:08:39 <shachaf> Instead of just telling you the size, they give you a function to malloc it and that's it.
11:08:47 <shachaf> What if there was a rule that APIs aren't allowed to call malloc?
11:09:46 <int-e> You'd end up having to pre-allocate everything yourself, with high buffer overflow potential.
11:10:03 <int-e> (especially because programmers are smart)
11:11:06 <shachaf> You can still include the malloc API if you want, I guess.
11:11:07 <b_jonas> int-e: and you'll end up with MS-style functions that take the size of the buffer in two arguments
11:11:22 <shachaf> Static allocation seems safer to me than malloc/free anyway.
11:11:53 <b_jonas> you know, safe_memcpy(void *src, size_t srclen, void *dest, size_t destlen, size_t numbytes);
11:12:00 <shachaf> Another thing ALSA could have done was put a reasonable number of padding bytes in the struct, and require them to be 0.
11:12:08 <shachaf> That would let them do extensibility just fine.
11:13:29 <shachaf> You don't even need that many because you can put a pointer there in the future if you really need a lot of space.
11:14:10 <shachaf> I bet I shouldn't be using libasound anyway because it's LGPL.
11:14:33 <int-e> shachaf: I'm not opposed to providing a low-level API that leaves allocation to the user, but I would treat it like that, as a low-level API for special case use.
11:14:59 <int-e> For most uses, having to think about allocation will just lead to more bugs.
11:15:13 <shachaf> But you have to think about allocation anyway even if someone else does it for you.
11:15:39 <int-e> (It's bad enough that you will end up having to check for errors all the time, though there are tricks using NULL or static error objects to alleviate that need.)
11:15:45 <shachaf> pulseaudio's API is even worse, of course. They insist on doing reference counting.
11:16:20 <shachaf> APIs that do reference counting for no reason should just be illegal.
11:16:39 <int-e> and what makes you say that they do it for no reason?
11:17:06 <shachaf> They claim the reason is my convenience.
11:17:16 <int-e> (I'm not a huge fan of reference counting but that's because I'd prefer proper GC.)
11:17:24 <shachaf> But what's convenient for me is to clearly know the lifetime of every object.
11:17:48 <int-e> Well, you're special.
11:18:00 <shachaf> I don't think I'm that special?
11:18:17 <b_jonas> or you can just have multiple apis, of different level, for the same underlying library. which already happens sometimes, with C and C++ and python apis.
11:18:36 <b_jonas> and sometimes even with multiple C apis or multiple C++ apis of different levels
11:18:40 <esowiki> [[Volatile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62713&oldid=62712 * TuxCrafting * (+1908)
11:18:52 <shachaf> Sure, put whatever nonsense you want on top of the basic API.
11:19:12 <int-e> shachaf: the standard attitude today is not to care unless the object holds resources other than memory :P
11:19:41 <int-e> (Aka scarce resources. ;-) )
11:19:55 <shachaf> "memory is cheap, allocations are expensive"
11:21:08 <int-e> make inner loops fast.
11:22:02 <int-e> shachaf: It's not even that I don't care about these things. They just don't matter 99% of the time.
11:22:17 <shachaf> anyway here's my fancy program that uses posix_spawnp: http://slbkbs.org/tmp/tym.c
11:22:43 <int-e> In the remaining 1% of the cases I do want the low-level interfaces, I will complain about reference counting... and pretty much agree with all the other things you're saying.
11:23:09 <shachaf> My claim isn't merely that the reference counting is easier but less efficient.
11:23:21 <int-e> it's less efficient than doing GC properly, yes.
11:23:23 <shachaf> The claim is that it's both less convenient and less efficient.
11:24:21 <shachaf> GC is just not practical for anything that wants to be even moderately real-time as far as I can tell.
11:24:59 <int-e> real-time and fast are often at odds anyway.
11:25:35 <int-e> (Real-time GC is a thing. And last I looked it was a trade-off between maximal response time and performance.)
11:26:11 <shachaf> Yes, GC trades throughput for latency.
11:26:17 <int-e> GC trades memory for speed. You want to do it as infrequently as possible, and you want to do it in a way where you don't pay for the garbage (that's the main attraction of copying GC).
11:26:20 <shachaf> And even in the best case the latency requirements are pretty high.
11:26:23 <esowiki> [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62714&oldid=62713 * A * (-57)
11:26:46 <shachaf> But often you can do better than sophisticated GC in both latency and throughput, using much less sohisticated code.
11:27:26 <shachaf> (Because GCs have to do everything dynamically and you can do it statically.)
11:27:51 <shachaf> Are any real-time GCs even available to me?
11:27:53 <int-e> The reference counting (poor person's GC) comes up in libraries for a reason... you can't predict how things are going to be shared at that level.
11:28:09 <shachaf> The library can't predict it, but I sure can.
11:29:01 <int-e> https://docs.oracle.com/javase/realtime/doc_2.2/release/JavaRTSQuickStart.html <-- really just soft real time, last I checked. But they tried.
11:30:17 <shachaf> What's the maximum pause time?
11:31:08 <shachaf> In https://wiki.openjdk.java.net/display/zgc/Main which I think is a newer project, they give a maximum pause time of 10ms which is just ridiculously long.
11:33:14 <shachaf> Ah, hmm, that page seems to be claiming 100µs? I'm suspicious.
11:34:33 <b_jonas> I tried to recreate a directory structure inside a subdirectory, like (find -type d -exec mkdir -v foo/{} \;)
11:34:37 <b_jonas> guess why that's a bad idea
11:35:55 <int-e> I've stopped following this a decade ago... back then the status was that a) academic work on real-time GC exists -- basically, if you have an upper bound on the allocation rate in addition to the execution times of your jobs, you can make things work out, given enough memory b) there are real-time Java efforts with somewhat murkier guarantees, making them soft real time. apparently in the...
11:36:01 <int-e> ...meantime they promise hard real time... under suitable conditions (which you have to check as a programmer).
11:37:03 <int-e> What about Erlang, I wonder...
11:37:20 <shachaf> Erlang has per-thread GC with no shared memory.
11:37:32 <shachaf> So no long global pauses, I assume.
11:37:58 <int-e> (In Haskell the state of the art seems to be to limit allocations *and* the working set size dramatically, and possibly do eager GC (like once per frame for real-time graphics))
11:38:37 <int-e> IOW, there's no designed-to-be real-time GC for Haskell that I'm aware of.
11:41:25 <shachaf> One good "GC" you can do once-per-frame is to allocate everything in an arena and then clear it at the end of the frame.
11:41:45 * int-e wouldn't use Haskell beyond small, best-effort, soft real time tasks.
11:42:01 <shachaf> This is very simple and cheaper than the fanciest GC.
11:42:28 <int-e> no, it's exactly as cheap as a copying GC when you've lost all the references to everything you've allocated during the frame :-P.
11:43:01 <b_jonas> but... don't you sometimes want to keep data from one frame to another?
11:43:10 <int-e> because you have no references to follow. and then you discard the semispace and use the other one.
11:43:12 <shachaf> A copying GC takes time proportional to your roots or live set or whatever.
11:43:25 <shachaf> It needs to at least look at all of those.
11:43:35 <int-e> shachaf: a sufficiently fancy GC would know that those roots haven't been touched ;-)
11:43:48 <shachaf> b_jonas: Yes, so you don't allocate those things in the per-frame arena.
11:44:23 * int-e is being contrary.
11:44:47 <shachaf> But this isn't even information you can specify to the typical GC because the idea of a GC is that you can be all "idk my bff jill" about it.
11:44:54 <int-e> shachaf: I mean, you're assuming that the programmer can outsmart the GC. You're probably right.
11:44:57 <shachaf> So it has to figure out everything dynamically.
11:45:11 <int-e> shachaf: But there's no fundamental reason for this ;-)
11:45:33 <shachaf> The fundamental reason is that the GC is dynamic.
11:45:44 <b_jonas> but yes, I do agree that in many situations, allocating stuff in a pool that you free at once is a useful strategy
11:45:56 <shachaf> If your language lets you do things more statically, with regions or whatever, then your GC isn't really a GC anymore.
11:46:38 <esowiki> [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62715&oldid=62650 * A * (+336)
11:46:42 <int-e> It doesn't have to be. You can do static life-time analysis to improve the GC. I'm sure there's research on that...
11:47:04 <int-e> shachaf: I disagree quite strongly with that premise.
11:47:38 <int-e> shachaf: congratulations, you made the wiki!
11:47:46 <shachaf> I'm pretty mad about that.
11:47:53 <b_jonas> int-e: the problem is that it's a bit hard to mix static and gc, because your gc often has to traverse the data you allocated, even such data that you will deallocate precisely at the right moment because of static considerations
11:48:18 <shachaf> My suggestion to the wiki adminstrators: Edit my name out of the wiki; purge my name out of the wiki history; ban A.
11:48:39 <shachaf> They are obviously acting in bad faith.
11:48:47 <b_jonas> and I do think that in most cases, static lifetimes works well, and refcounting works in the rest of the cases
11:49:26 <esowiki> [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62716&oldid=62715 * A * (+406)
11:49:39 <b_jonas> it's just that the static lifetimes are sometimes hard to prove, so you use refcounting or gc to work around programmer mistakes, even if it's technically slower at runtime
11:50:00 <shachaf> I'm feeling pretty distressed about being quoted on the wiki like that.
11:50:09 <int-e> yeah I suspect a ban will happen sooner or later.
11:50:19 <b_jonas> you take the runtime speed penalty because it's better than the potential use after free from a bug
11:51:21 <shachaf> int-e: Well, maybe a static lifetime manager exists that's as good as handwritten code and as easy as never thinking about allocations. But it sounds like even a rough approximation is an open research problem.
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11:51:42 <shachaf> Approximately all existing GCs rely on doing most everything at runtime.
11:53:59 <shachaf> oerjan or whoever: I would appreciate not being mentioned in the wiki in any way, not even in the history, if that can be arranged.
11:54:01 <int-e> just a random find: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.219.1650
11:56:27 <int-e> shachaf: I think the main problem here is this: GC is /good enough/ for so many purposes... except when you have hard memory or time constraints, and then nobody's would be willing to trust any amount of static analysis to get things right; they want to see exactly what happens in the code. So there's no real market for better static analysis in this area.
11:56:50 <shachaf> Hmm, by "not research" I meant "an implementation I can use for something", rather than a paper with a sentence like "we formulate an operational semantics".
11:57:09 <int-e> shachaf: I was following my own "there's research" remark.
11:57:32 <shachaf> int-e: I suspect GC isn't actually good enough for any interactive program.
11:57:47 <b_jonas> oh nice, this command line is almost completed
11:58:00 <shachaf> Today consumer screens run at 120Hz or 144Hz refresh rate.
11:58:13 <shachaf> 144Hz is <7ms update time.
11:58:19 <int-e> shachaf: I think you're proving wrong in practice, by tons of interactive software written in Java and Javascript.
11:58:40 <int-e> 60Hz is still mostly standard, 120Hz is for gamers ;-)
11:58:41 <shachaf> Oh, sorry, I meant "good software".
11:58:42 <b_jonas> my TFT screen runs at 60Hz, but I'm not sure it counts as "today's".
11:58:53 <int-e> (especially since we have this silly UHD trend)
11:59:30 <shachaf> The iPad Pro runs at 120Hz.
11:59:57 * int-e ionders about that 144Hz figure..
11:59:57 <HackEso> As of 2015, highest resolution commercial computer monitors are 5120x2880 Apple and 3840x2160 other.
12:00:08 <b_jonas> int-e: good point, I think this wisdom has to be updated
12:00:38 <b_jonas> I think there are now monitors with larger resolution
12:00:39 * int-e should try finding a HD IPS display whiler there's still time...
12:01:25 <b_jonas> um, what does "HD IPS" mean? I'm lost in all these marketing abbreviations
12:01:45 <b_jonas> "HD" is some sort of resolution that they use so we don't know the actual numbers, right?
12:01:55 <b_jonas> but what resolution? I can't follow all these abbreviations
12:01:56 <int-e> HD = 2K = 1920x1080; IPS = in plane switching, which is the TFT technology that gives high angular color invariance.
12:02:26 <int-e> (and which my current display doesn't have)
12:02:43 <shachaf> Wow, you can even get a 240Hz laptop.
12:03:01 <int-e> why waste all that precious memory bandwidth?
12:03:09 <shachaf> To match the responsiveness of an Apple II?
12:03:17 <shachaf> https://danluu.com/input-lag/
12:03:52 <b_jonas> can humans even distinguish 240 Hz and 120 Hz progressive updates?
12:04:31 <shachaf> I'll have to try out the hardware sometime.
12:04:42 <shachaf> People say 60->120 is a big improvement.
12:04:43 <int-e> though tbh I'd be more willing to spend that bandwidth on higher refresh rates than on higher resolution
12:04:51 <esowiki> [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62717&oldid=62716 * A * (+135)
12:05:08 <int-e> yeah that 8ms improvement should be noticable.
12:05:09 <b_jonas> int-e: for 120 Hz versus 60 Hz, sure, that makes sense
12:05:43 <shachaf> If you're at 1920x1080 at 60 fps, you can quadruple the bandwidth to go to 4K or 240Hz.
12:05:52 <b_jonas> int-e: not when you run windows software that sometimes makes you wait for seconds before they react
12:06:07 <int-e> > 1/120 -- this is how much ealier you may get to see an update when using 120 instead of 60Hz refresh rate
12:06:56 <int-e> I can add -3 and 3 ;-)
12:07:17 <b_jonas> int-e: but 120 Hz referesh rate can be better than 60 Hz for reasons other than latency too
12:07:26 <int-e> For 240Hz that can give you another 4ms... that really should be barely noticable.
12:07:56 <shachaf> I am actually confusil about why people went with 144Hz rather than 120Hz.
12:08:03 <int-e> Yeah, 120Hz is a multiple of 24.
12:08:18 <int-e> (24 being a standard movie frame rate)
12:08:35 <int-e> Maybe there are 48Hz movies? That could explain the 144.
12:09:14 <int-e> or just 24fps with interleaving...
12:14:27 <int-e> I still think a lot of this is just the marketing attitude that bigger numbers are better.
12:17:19 <b_jonas> what I'd like is cheap cameras where the sensor has six or seven different color channels, rather than just three. they'd see differences in color that we can't percieve. yes, I do understand that we have almost no software support for such images, and also that it would come at the expense of resolution, but still.
12:17:35 <b_jonas> I'm not saying that all cameras should have that, sure, we can keep the 3 and 1 channel cameras too
12:17:39 <esowiki> [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62718&oldid=62717 * A * (+254)
12:18:31 <esowiki> [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62719&oldid=62718 * A * (+47)
12:19:00 <int-e> . o O ( can we rate limit edits per user to bursts of 5, 5 per hour? ;-) (I might regret thios...) )
12:19:03 <b_jonas> int-e: yeah. and in a sense that's better when they use words where it's not even clear which one is better, like "full HD" and "QVGA" and "widescreen" and "ultra widescreen" so they can toggle between two options every few years and sell the new option as better than the old option every time
12:19:17 <b_jonas> I think we went from iodized salt to iodine-less salt and back twice each already
12:19:29 <b_jonas> each time they sold it as an advantage over the previous kind of salt
12:19:48 <b_jonas> so now the fancy salt costs 200 forints a kilogram rather than 12 forint per kilogram
12:20:09 <b_jonas> int-e: please don't use such a low limit
12:20:28 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62720&oldid=62619 * A * (+378) Is this the etymology?
12:20:32 <int-e> b_jonas: I know :P
12:20:42 <b_jonas> int-e: or do you mean announcements of the edits on the irc channel? because that could work
12:21:20 <int-e> b_jonas: It's a very flawed idea... rate limits don't model the intent (what matters is the significance of the edits)
12:21:48 <b_jonas> int-e: so just limit to 5 bad edits per day, and an unlimited number of good edits
12:22:04 <esowiki> [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62721&oldid=62719 * A * (-301)
12:22:07 <b_jonas> yeah, let me repeat my question from a few days ago
12:23:13 <b_jonas> in linux, for an ip socket, what setsockopt do I use to change whether the evil bit shall be set in outgoing packets for that socket? I can't find it in http://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man7/ip.7.html
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12:24:47 <int-e> @google IP "evil bit"
12:24:49 <lambdabot> https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3514.txt
12:25:21 <int-e> Ah, 1 April 2003 ... maybe you don't.
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12:33:20 <esowiki> [[Jungle]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62722 * Madk * (+22095) Add Jungle esolang
12:38:34 <b_jonas> ok, I have to leave now, both for the election and for real-life stuff involving family. see you later.
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12:56:05 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62723&oldid=61699 * A * (+2527) /* VerboseFuck */
12:59:43 <esowiki> [[Talk:Volatile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62724&oldid=62708 * TuxCrafting * (+2490)
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13:16:16 <esowiki> [[Talk:Volatile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62725&oldid=62724 * TuxCrafting * (+1478)
13:18:14 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62726&oldid=62459 * Madk * (+13) /* J */ Add Jungle to language list
13:20:37 <esowiki> [[Talk:Volatile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62727&oldid=62725 * TuxCrafting * (+72)
13:23:25 <esowiki> [[Volatile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62728&oldid=62714 * TuxCrafting * (-369)
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14:38:06 <esowiki> [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62729&oldid=62728 * A * (+74)
14:38:15 <esowiki> [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62730&oldid=62729 * A * (-1766) /* Buggy Java implementation */
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15:07:47 <int-e> /ignore -channel #esoteric -regex -pattern " .5\\*. .03A. .5\\*. " esowiki <--- I finally found a pattern that works with irssi... have to include the color codes... silly.
15:31:44 <esowiki> [[Volatile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62731&oldid=62730 * TuxCrafting * (-4) optimize examples
15:41:20 <int-e> beautiful: VPMADD52HUQ — Packed Multiply of Unsigned 52-bit Unsigned Integers and Add High 52-bit Products to 64-bit Accumulators
15:41:46 <esowiki> [[User:Madk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62732&oldid=62339 * Madk * (+13) /* Implemented */ Add Jungle to implemented language list
15:42:04 <int-e> (s/H/L/;s/High/Low/ exists as well)
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15:49:03 <esowiki> [[Jungle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62733&oldid=62722 * Madk * (-50) /* Reference implementation */ Fix inaccurate info about ///BEGIN/// and ///END///
16:13:03 <esowiki> [[Point]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62734&oldid=62491 * Unlimiter * (+6)
16:14:09 <esowiki> [[Point]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62735&oldid=62734 * Unlimiter * (-284)
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18:12:12 * int-e can scan canned cans.
18:13:15 <b_jonas> May is an auxiliary verb, a month, and a prime minister.
18:14:25 <kmc> *was* a prime minister!
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18:14:52 <b_jonas> still is, I think, but not for very long
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18:18:02 <b_jonas> /topic IOCCC winners are announced; source code release planned for 2019-06-02 | Welcome to the international stock market for esoteric programming language invention, implementation, ignorance, innovation, and integration! | https://esolangs.org | logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D |
18:18:07 <b_jonas> https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf
18:19:04 <b_jonas> /topic IOCCC winners are announced; source code release planned for 2019-06-02 | Welcome to the international center for esoteric programming languages! | https://esolangs.org | logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf
18:19:17 <b_jonas> better, but still slightly too long I think... what's the max length?
18:19:41 <b_jonas> [ # 'IOCCC winners are announced; source code release planned for 2019-06-02 | Welcome to the international center for esoteric programming languages! | https://esolangs.org | logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf'
18:19:53 -!- b_jonas has set topic: IOCCC winners are announced; source code release planned for 2019-06-02 | Welcome to the international center for esoteric programming languages! | https://esolangs.org | logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf.
18:20:45 <b_jonas> can we remove the old wisdom pdf?
18:21:13 -!- b_jonas has set topic: IOCCC winners are announced; source code release planned for 2019-06-02 | Welcome to the international center for esoteric programming language design, development, and deployment! | https://esolangs.org | logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
18:21:24 <HackEso> Nicely formatted wisdoms and quotes book at https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf
18:22:35 <int-e> `slwd wisdom.pdf//s=wis=classical wis=
18:22:37 <HackEso> wisdom.pdf//Nicely formatted classical wisdoms and quotes book at https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf
18:42:57 <zzo38> I should think only the https://esolangs.org/logs/ is needed for the logs and others isn't (although maybe that web page should link to other one in case you want to look at older logs), and if it is still too long by one byte, change it to "http:" instead of "https:"
18:43:54 <b_jonas> zzo38: I think fizzie or someone suggested that it's better to have all three in the topic, because there have been times when the esolangs.org logs server was down but one of the others were working
18:45:29 <b_jonas> `slashlearn log//#esoteric channel logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/
18:45:31 <HackEso> Relearned 'log': #esoteric channel logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/
18:45:34 <HackEso> #esoteric channel logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/
18:45:47 <b_jonas> could also say something about logarithme
18:46:12 <zzo38> Anyways, the codu.org server does not have recent logs (although tunes.org does, so perhaps should be kept in case esolangs.org is down).
18:47:36 <b_jonas> I'd err in favor of advertising the channel logs well, because one of the network-wide policies on freenode is that if a channel has public logs, then those should be advertised
18:47:43 <zzo38> (The wisdom file should still list all of them though)
18:48:07 <b_jonas> ``` grep -ERiw codu wisdom
18:48:10 <HackEso> wisdom/log:#esoteric channel logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/
18:48:12 <b_jonas> ``` grep -ERiw tunes wisdom
18:48:13 <HackEso> wisdom/log:#esoteric channel logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/
18:48:18 <zzo38> Yes, but the codu.org does not have recent logs.
18:48:19 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/log: 2: cd: can't cd to /var/irclogs/_esoteric \ shuf: '????-??-??.txt': No such file or directory \ ????-??-??.txt:
18:48:20 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: logs: not found
18:49:22 <b_jonas> oh, I think `log tries to look up logfiles from back when there was a copy of them in hackeso's filesystem
19:14:10 <arseniiv> I tried to advertize #esoteric logs in my circles but it did no discernible effect
19:15:27 <shachaf> int-e: So they kept posting my name? What's that about?
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19:20:04 <ais523> <int-e> . o O ( can we rate limit edits per user to bursts of 5, 5 per hour? ;-) (I might regret thios...) ) ← there are rate limiting settings that can be used, but I don't think any do that precisely; also, it'd be a problem if people were creating articles via repeated edits
19:20:32 <ais523> I know that what's going on on [[Bitch]] is a trainwreck but it'd likely do too much harm to stop it (besides, it /is/ an interesting language…)
19:26:06 <shachaf> Is my request (not to be mentioned in the wiki, even in the history) feasible?
19:26:43 <ais523> it's possible to replace history entries with markers showing that something was deleted from them
19:26:46 <shachaf> This person is obviously doing it on purpose, because they're quoting people talking about how annoying they are on the wiki.
19:26:57 <ais523> we do that in cases where people post personal information to the wiki
19:27:09 <ais523> when someone's just copying public information to the wiki, there's no obvious privacy issue
19:27:20 <ais523> however, if someone is intentionally doing it to annoy someone else that'd be a reason to remove it of its own accord
19:27:26 <shachaf> It's only a strong preference.
19:27:35 <shachaf> But this person is clearly acting in bad faith here.
19:28:04 <ais523> I think A thinks that the wiki works like a nomic, i.e. any rule that isn't explicitly stated doesn't exist
19:28:22 <shachaf> I don't care how they think.
19:29:04 <ais523> in this case I think A's userpage counts as an attack page, because I can't really see a legitimate reason for the way it's being used atm
19:29:44 <ais523> actually doing a revision delete on it is going to be painful, though, because of the way he edits it, with repeated small changes
19:30:21 <shachaf> But not doing it because of that reason is rewarding bad behavior.
19:31:18 <ais523> I'm trying to find the last good revision to revert to now
19:31:18 <shachaf> If repeated small changes are a problem then something should be done about it because they're going to keep doing it.
19:32:08 <ais523> they're not normally a problem, they just make revision deletes slower
19:32:17 <ais523> if the whole thing had been done in one change it'd have been gone by now
19:32:32 <ais523> I'm trying to do the delete at the moment, it just takes a while to do it correctly in this case
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19:33:32 <esowiki> [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62736&oldid=62721 * Ais523 * (-3812) set top revision for revision delete; this is the most recent version of this page that isn't disruptive / an attack on other people
19:34:34 <ais523> shachaf: could you check the history to make sure that there's nothing in the history metadata that you object to? (i.e. not the content of the page, just things like the edit summary, i.e. things directly visible on the "history" page)
19:36:17 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] revision * Ais523 * Ais523 changed visibility of 34 revisions on page [[User:A]]: content hidden: attack page / intentional disruption / intentionally antagonizing other people; also off-topic
19:36:18 <shachaf> My direct objection was only to the last few edits, that mention me by name.
19:37:24 <ais523> well, it's been attacking people (both me and others) for a while
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19:37:44 <ais523> <ais523> I should have looked at the history earlier, the most recent revision was toned down a little but some of the earlier ones were obviously unacceptable, it showed intent to antagonise people
19:37:50 <ais523> <ais523> (even the most recent revision was pretty bad though)
19:39:24 <ais523> quoting someone because you intend to annoy them is one of the worst reasons to quote…
19:39:40 <ais523> anyway, I think the revision delete worked (although I can't easily check because I'm an admin and can see the deleted text regardless)
19:40:13 <ais523> it's much easier than it used to be, the old method was both confusing to anyone watching and easy to screw up, also it was harder to audit
19:40:39 <ais523> the newer version lets us mark the history as having been deleted, which is much better for transparency, also the process is a little easier
19:40:55 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: this happens every now and then
19:41:05 <Phantom_Hoover> i remember when you deleted revisions by deleting the entire page and then only undeleting certain revisions
19:41:09 <ais523> yes, that's the old method
19:41:30 <ais523> it still works but it's easy to screw up and if the page ever gets deleted a second time, all the revisions get mixed up with each other
19:41:45 <ais523> the new method was added a while back because the old method kind-of sucked :-)
19:43:12 <shachaf> The real drama is when it'll turn out A was secretly me all along.
19:44:22 <Phantom_Hoover> and by 'a while back' you mean over ten years ago, right
19:44:35 <Phantom_Hoover> i remember fucking around with revisiondelete when i was a bureaucrat on rationalwiki lol
19:45:06 <kmc> shachaf: https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/61108698_10100593041263622_7774938434182840320_n.jpg?_nc_cat=111&_nc_eui2=AeGvh5fMnqlQ5N0kDXYiXyOUPLFa4QyuR-JWDj2l8sT6urnUDguFAQFLgUKB4mbDweYPObW8r3uqRlhR1yyKhjc928FnroVdeQTQl_wnvoNGzA&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=2840eb864facd95f2d14a142d5989774&oe=5D5FE019
19:45:15 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: it's more recent on Esolang because it was a long time before we upgraded and gained the feature
19:45:20 <ais523> it was added to MediaWiki ages ago, though, yes
19:46:30 <ais523> <shachaf> The real drama is when it'll turn out A was secretly me all along. ← do you really think A's a sockpuppet of an established #esoteric user? it's technically possible to check, and it would be a major problem if true, but I think it's unlikely on behavioural grounds
19:46:56 <shachaf> No, I don't think that, it was a joke.
19:47:07 <shachaf> AlsoI don't know how you'd check whether it actually is me.
19:47:31 <Phantom_Hoover> i feel it was unsporting to delete the drama before giving me a chance to rubberneck :p
19:48:04 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: The drama was just a page full of verbatim quotes from IRC of people talking about how annoying A's editing behavior is.
19:48:04 <ais523> well, you could make it very hard to check by consistently using different VPNs, browsers, etc. for different personas
19:48:09 <ais523> but most people who try that screw up at one point
19:48:30 <b_jonas> ais523: I tried to get some revisions deleted from hu.wikipedia and wikidata earlier this year. It was about the birthdate of a famous actor who asked to get that removed from the article about her. That actor asked wikipedia to delete it, but
19:48:45 <shachaf> I mean, I don't have a wiki account, and I don't think my IP address is even visible to anyone here.
19:48:48 <ais523> b_jonas: oh, Wikipedia birthday wars are ridiculous
19:49:09 <shachaf> I guess you could trick me by posting an interesting link in the channel or /msg and hoping that I cilck on it.
19:49:26 <b_jonas> was initially refused, because the birthday was mentioned in some cvs online that were apparently published with her agreement. She got two of those deleted, so the birthday was available only from wikipedia and some archive.org pages.
19:49:53 <ais523> shachaf: I've done that before now, although not to you
19:50:07 <ais523> and not in this channel
19:50:25 <b_jonas> There was some stupid long policy debate where some people tried to defend the idiotic policy that we can list the birthday because it can still be sourced from archive.org. That's obvious nonsense, because then any webpage could refuse to delete the birthday _first_ because it's still on other public webpages.
19:50:26 <ais523> was trying to catch someone who was being disruptive in ##nomic
19:50:36 <Phantom_Hoover> i vaguely remember reading about tactics like that being used on eve online to catch moles
19:51:03 <b_jonas> Eventually after some edit war, the birthday was removed from the article (the month stayed). But it still remained in revision history on hu.wikipedia and wikidata. So I tried to get it deleted.
19:52:33 <b_jonas> That's complicated, because by policy hiding revisions would be the job of oversighters (a privilaged user group), but hu.wikipedia doesn't have any of them, so the fallback is to ask wikimedia stewards.
19:53:00 <ais523> there's two levels of hiding
19:53:03 <b_jonas> I asked wikimedia stewards, they said it's not their job, ask wikimedia legal. I asked wikimedia legal, they told me that they'll delete if the actor asks them directly. At that point I gave that up.
19:53:11 <ais523> I don't think this would warrant oversight, revision delete is surely enough for something like this?
19:54:00 <Phantom_Hoover> maybe he means revisiondelete was lumped into the oversighters in their permissions structure?
19:54:07 <ais523> the only difference is that an oversighting can't be undone by a normal admin, so it's secure against more people
19:54:27 <b_jonas> ais523: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Oversight_policy suggests that this should be oversighted, but the details of the policy are not clear to me:
19:54:41 <b_jonas> that global policy mentions deleting private data from userpages, not from articles
19:55:45 <b_jonas> but this is also a legal issue, because the laws require that we scrub the personal data if the relevant person asks, and https://foundation.wikimedia.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use says that we have to follow the laws
19:55:54 <b_jonas> which is why the legal dept is relevant
19:56:08 <ais523> aha, was wondering if laws applied to this
19:56:22 <ais523> I guess exact birthdays do count as private personal information
19:57:15 <b_jonas> I can send a link about the discussion in private if you want, but I don't want to have that in the channel logs
19:57:54 <b_jonas> it also turned out that hu.wikipedia has a local policy saying that we shouldn't list the birthdate if it's not publicly known
19:57:56 <ais523> I've seen enough birthday wars already
19:57:57 <b_jonas> but I found this rather late
19:59:12 <b_jonas> and of course OTRS was involved too, because they're the ones who got the request from the actor, with a claim that she's really that actor
20:00:14 <ais523> <int-e> As long as that works for a large enough proportion of the wikis you find... you won't spend any more effort than that. If it stops working you'll start looking for common countermeasures, like easy captchas. ← there are spamming frameworks that use humans to break captchas, I know this because I've seen the same spam framework hit multiple wikis I admin where user signup worked in totally different ways
20:00:43 <ais523> the whole "introduce yourself" thing was set up because the spam frameworks think "oh, I created an account, I can take over myself rather than using up the human captcha-breaker's time"
20:00:49 <b_jonas> ais523: right, forwarding attacks for captchas
20:01:01 <shachaf> Wait, what? I just discovered Unicode has two code points with the same name.
20:01:08 <shachaf> I always thought code point names were unique.
20:01:16 <ais523> b_jonas: at least one I don't think it was a forwarding attack, because the account creation process was to create an account on a different (related) site
20:01:17 <b_jonas> shachaf: which ones? it's not "BELL" is it?
20:01:24 <ais523> I don't see how you can do that with a forwarding attack
20:01:50 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, the forwarding is for the generic captchas
20:01:57 <shachaf> Oh, maybe BELL is just labeled "<control>" and the name BELL is an alias?
20:02:26 <b_jonas> shachaf: I think the name of the control character isn't BELL, but I don't know what it is
20:02:28 <ais523> b_jonas: this is the same spammer framework that attacked esowiki
20:02:45 <ais523> IMO the name of the control character is BEL with one L, but I think Unicode disagrees
20:03:03 <b_jonas> isn't the name of the control character something like ALERT ?
20:03:30 <b_jonas> http://unicode.scarfboy.com/?s=U%2B0007 says "Name not known"
20:03:38 <b_jonas> um no, it says "(name not known)"
20:03:47 <b_jonas> maybe it doesn't have a name then?
20:04:04 <shachaf> b_jonas: I think my script extracting data from the official Unicode file took some shortcuts.
20:04:14 <shachaf> ais523: They also call U+0 "NULL"!
20:05:00 <ais523> ugh, now how are we going to teach people the difference between "\0" and "" and Segmentation fault (core dumped)
20:05:01 <b_jonas> shachaf: yeah, for the full thing you have to use libicu or something, which also dynamically generates the data for the regular korean characters, because there's so many that they didn't want to list it in the source table
20:05:34 <shachaf> My table is also missing a bunch of CJK code points, I'm pretty sure.
20:06:09 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Components_for_Unicode says it's "an open-source project of mature C/C++ and Java libraries for Unicode support"
20:06:16 <b_jonas> shachaf: common ones or rare ones?
20:06:34 <shachaf> I don't remember but I believe some common ones are missing.
20:06:38 <shachaf> What's that supposed to mean? Is it C or C++?
20:06:50 <shachaf> I'd like to have a policy of not using C++ libraries.
20:06:52 <ais523> I think they're talking about what languages it binds to
20:06:58 <ais523> it is probably written in the common subset of C and C++, though
20:07:03 <ais523> given that description
20:07:03 <b_jonas> shachaf: yes, and I like it because when I reported a doc feature request, they actually replied to the ticket and fixed it.
20:07:14 <ais523> that's normally a ridiculous language choice but it can make sense for libraries
20:07:19 <shachaf> i,i the common subset of C, C++, and Java
20:07:20 <b_jonas> developers who fix things I report always makes me much more confident about the quality of a library
20:08:10 <b_jonas> shachaf: it has a complete interface for C++, a partial interface for C (some functionality isn't available from the C API, but the most important ones are), and something something Java, I don't follow that
20:08:12 <shachaf> ais523: Apparently it's written in C++ but exposes a C API.
20:08:59 <shachaf> harfbuzz is also written in C++, among other reasons not to use it.
20:09:25 <shachaf> Unfortunately there's a big reason to use it, which is that it's the only cross-platform library that exists that does the thing it does.
20:09:41 <shachaf> And the thing it does is poorly documented so it's quite hard to reimplement.
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20:12:14 <shachaf> Maybe that's also true of ICU?
20:12:29 <shachaf> Golly, handling text correctly is so hard.
20:12:41 <b_jonas> shachaf: most of the times, you don't need the parts of ICU that you can't get easier from smaller libraries
20:12:49 <b_jonas> but for some unicode-related stuff, you do
20:12:58 <b_jonas> there are other libraries handling some of that too, I believe
20:13:19 <b_jonas> because eg. pango somehow knows how to break text into lines at work boundaries, and it doesn't depend on ICU
20:15:50 <int-e> ais523: I know that what's going on on [[Bitch]] is a trainwreck [...] <-- I think the train has moved on to [[Volatile]].
20:16:38 <arseniiv> (I’m slow at puns, but do they call the DEL character DELL also?)
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20:19:06 <ais523> arseniiv: DEL is a weird character, its original purpose was so that you could delete characters from punched tape by punching out all the remaining holes in that column
20:19:13 <ais523> (the convention being that programs would ignore DEL in their input)
20:19:33 <ais523> likewise, NUL was a no-op so that you could pre-place blocks of NULs in your tape and later punch on them to insert characters
20:19:49 <ais523> but then DEL started to be used as an actual character, e.g. as a representation of the Delete key on the keyboard
20:20:07 <ais523> even though its original purpose means that it has no actual meaning as a terminal control code, and it should logically be treated as a NOP
20:20:30 <b_jonas> yeah, they ignore both NUL (all bits clear) and DEL (all bits set), the latter useful to fix errors (can be done even through a teletype with tape puncher by backspacing and then punching a DEL), the former to leave empty space at the edge of paper tapes so they can be spliced more easily
20:20:31 <arseniiv> didn’t know about Delete representation :o
20:20:41 <ais523> fwiw, most terminals ignore it, which is probably the correct option
20:20:48 <b_jonas> that DEL exists is a main advantage of 7-bit paper tape over 5-bit one
20:20:56 <b_jonas> 5-bit paper tape only has NUL
20:21:12 <ais523> what coding does 5-bit tape use? the main 5-bit code is Baudot but I think it needs 00 for something else
20:21:14 <b_jonas> (to be clear, a bit set means the hole is punched open, a bit cleared means the paper is intact)
20:21:29 <b_jonas> it was used for telex for a long time
20:21:46 <b_jonas> and I don't think it needs code 0 for something else
20:22:19 <ais523> huh, it doesn't use 0 for something else, I just checked
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20:22:53 <ais523> <docs of https://esolangs.org/wiki/7> C<00> encodes NUL,
20:22:55 <b_jonas> there are tons of variants of baudot
20:23:20 <b_jonas> but most don't, exactly so that you can leave empty space at the edge of paper tape
20:23:25 <ais523> (sorry about the leading zeroes, I tend to write Baudot in base 6 out of habit)
20:24:09 <b_jonas> telex machines can transmit and receive much faster than a single operator can type on the keyboard, so for stations that send lots of messages, people punch paper tapes on separate keyboards, and just feed it to the fast tape reader of the telex machine
20:24:10 <arseniiv> hm also it seems a pun about DEL was more of a punch
20:24:50 <b_jonas> a machine with keyboard and paper punch but without the modem is a significantly cheaper than the full telex machine
20:26:13 <ais523> b_jonas: https://esolangs.org/wiki/7 has twelve commands, but only eight of them have names, and only six of them are easy to put in a literal
20:26:35 <ais523> it uses Baudot as its main encoding for "string constants" but it's a variant that only uses the digits 0-5 because 6 and 7 and the four unnamed commands are a pain to use
20:26:47 <ais523> so most of the actual Baudot writing I do nowadays is done in base 6
20:28:00 <arseniiv> b_jonas: (groan) => hehe thanks I knew it would be a quality content
20:29:01 <ais523> or, I should say: 6, 7, and the four unnamed commands aren't bad to use, it's just mixing them with 0-5 that's awkward
20:29:06 <ais523> so literals tend to use one set or the other
20:29:26 * ais523 vaguely wonders why they didn't name the unnamed commands as 8, 9, 10, and 11, there's an obvious order for them
20:31:49 <b_jonas> I guess I forgot about the baudot encoding part of that esolang
20:32:16 <ais523> with my current codegolf.stackexchange account, my two highest-scoring posts are both posts in 7 that just print string literals
20:33:13 <ais523> both had [tag:restricted-source] restrictions related to digits, which was part of the insipiration for using 7 in the first place
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21:17:10 <zzo38> I suppose an implementation can use numbers 8 9 10 11 for the unnamed commands, which is not exposed to the program.
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21:42:29 <arseniiv> consider placing N points on a sphere such that the sum of all pairwise (Euclidean) distances between them is maximal; for N = 7 numerical optimization gives a somewhat strange arrangement: two opposite points and a “wobbly pentagon” orthogonal to that diameter
21:43:48 <arseniiv> also either it’s a flaw of Mathematica 8 or the solution for N = 20 is not an icosahedron (two quadruplets of points are close to being squares)
21:44:45 <arseniiv> also it’s obvious in retrospect but I was surprised N = 8 gives no cube, but a square antiprism
21:45:51 <b_jonas> arseniiv: you'll have to ask chemistry people about that problem for small N
21:45:57 <arseniiv> these results may be suboptimal, I’ve used standard NMaximize function for that
21:46:24 <b_jonas> it's perhaps not quite equivalent to the natural problem in chemistry, but similar enough
21:48:04 <arseniiv> b_jonas: yeah, I heard about it, there should be an equivalent “a potential field and some charges” formulation
21:48:47 <arseniiv> also I’ve seen a link today regarding IIRC N = 5
21:49:12 <arseniiv> an article which I didn’t read, but they say it’s nontrivial
21:50:22 <arseniiv> with a proof of optimality of the triangle bipyramid arrangement
21:51:16 <arseniiv> found it: https://arxiv.org/abs/0906.0937
21:52:00 <zzo38> You can find the JSON of a c2 wiki page by appending the page name to http://c2.com/wiki/remodel/pages/ in case you want to write your own parser for it and do not want to use theirs.
21:52:12 <arseniiv> ( chemical N = 5 also: https://arxiv.org/abs/1001.3702 )
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22:38:12 <esowiki> [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62737&oldid=62731 * JonoCode9374 * (+49) /* Python Interpreter */ Added ability to output as characters
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23:32:16 <esowiki> [[Point]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62738&oldid=62735 * Unlimiter * (+30) /* In-depth */
23:33:09 <esowiki> [[Point]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62739&oldid=62738 * Unlimiter * (+3) /* In-depth */
23:34:11 <esowiki> [[Point]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62740&oldid=62739 * Unlimiter * (+3)
23:36:53 <esowiki> [[Point]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62741&oldid=62740 * Unlimiter * (+13) /* In-depth */
23:39:24 <esowiki> [[Point]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62742&oldid=62741 * Unlimiter * (+0) /* Countdown */
23:39:42 <esowiki> [[Point]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62743&oldid=62742 * Unlimiter * (+17) /* Counting up */
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00:30:19 <esowiki> [[Point]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62744&oldid=62743 * Unlimiter * (+9)
00:32:18 <unlimiter> I hope the esolang community grows in the future
00:32:47 <zzo38> Yes, and if you have a idea of esolangs then you can do it too
00:34:16 <zzo38> I had a idea I mentioned on this IRC perhaps a week ago I don't remember exactly when, and I should put it into the esolang wiki too
00:36:19 <adu> I'm making a meta lang
00:36:25 <adu> is that esoteric enough?
00:37:01 <unlimiter> wait until i understand what a meta lang is...
00:37:07 <zzo38> Well, let's see what you make, anyways
00:40:37 <adu> wanna see the AST?
00:40:38 <adu> https://ghostbin.com/paste/hm4k4
00:40:49 <adu> funny enough, I don't actually have a syntax yet
00:41:38 <unlimiter> interesting... you could make the syntax quickly
00:41:43 <adu> I could never decide between (@var x 2) and var $ x = 2
00:42:40 <adu> @defn f(x) = x + 1
00:42:52 <adu> holy shit my language already exists
00:43:25 <adu> defn $f(x) = x + 1
00:44:14 <unlimiter> but both of them distinguish between names and keywords, whihc is a good style
00:44:23 <adu> anyways a fundamental goal was to make elseif really easy
00:44:51 <adu> I spent a lot of time trying to combine trinary and if-elif-else
00:45:02 <adu> I wrote it all down somewhere
00:45:19 <zzo38> I think lambdabot will run Haskell codes, not yours
00:45:48 <adu> basically, there are bindings, declarations, and applications
00:45:51 <zzo38> (Although what you wrote, I think happens to be valid in Haskell too)
00:46:06 <adu> the scope of bindings's variables is within the body
00:46:18 <adu> the scope of declarations' variables is unlimited
00:46:34 <adu> and applications can't introduce any variables
00:46:41 <adu> like every language
00:46:55 <adu> it started as a compilation target for every language
00:46:58 <unlimiter> in lua, every undeclared variable returns nil
00:47:30 <unlimiter> Here's my esolang btw, it's very sensitive, don't touch it hardly: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Point
00:47:45 <adu> I think I finally came to the conclusion that there really isn't any difference between statements and applications unless you start thinking Haskellish
00:48:15 <unlimiter> people who work the haskell way are rare
00:49:46 <adu> also, I started creating an instruction set
00:50:02 <adu> that would fill in the places after decls/ bindings/funcs
00:50:17 <adu> so in MathML there are only bindings and functions, no declarations
00:50:24 <zzo38> I sometimes use assembly language, for a few different kind of computers/VMs
00:50:25 <adu> my language is essentially MathML + declarations
00:51:08 <adu> the "instruction set" of MathML is stuff like plus, times, differentiald, binomial, and amillion other things that MathML3 people thought should be in there
00:51:25 <adu> Here is my instruction set:
00:51:27 <adu> http://andydude.github.io/drosera-cdbase/dscdbase/cd/prog2.xhtml
00:52:40 <adu> for reference, this is the MathML related standard: https://www.openmath.org/cd/prog1.html
00:53:05 <adu> it basically does a terrible job of representing computation
00:53:14 <unlimiter> if you want to make your interpreter/compiler code-golfed, i suggest that you leave just the fundamental instructions
00:53:40 <adu> what's code golf
00:54:03 <adu> oh, like J?
00:55:27 <unlimiter> people also put an eye on RAM usage
00:56:24 <esowiki> [[User:Zzo38/Untitled 2]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62745 * Zzo38 * (+1247) Created page with "This programming language consists of: * Zero or more inputs, which are natural numbers * Zero or more registers, each of which has a fixed maximum (defined by the program), a..."
00:57:49 <zzo38> Now you can see what I wrote: http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Zzo38/Untitled_2
00:58:28 <adu> do MMIX and EBC constitute esolangs?
00:59:19 <zzo38> adu: Maybe it constitutes "quasi-esolangs". (I know MMIX, but not EBC)
00:59:24 <adu> they're technically assembly languages
00:59:47 <zzo38> unlimiter: It is an input to the program.
00:59:48 <adu> EBC is EFI ByteCode
00:59:57 <zzo38> O, that is what it is.
01:00:39 <adu> supposedly to increase the chances of portable, universal drivers for everything so you never have to port a driver or write a driver more than once, and so far as I know, it has been used... never
01:00:52 <zzo38> unlimiter: It depends on the implementation, because my specification does not specify where the input comes from, but yes it can, if the inputs have an order you could put one number on each line for example.
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01:01:17 <zzo38> (It could also be considered like a function, rather than standard I/O, could be another way)
01:04:15 <zzo38> adu: Have you used MMIX or EBC? I used MMIX.
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01:04:35 <adu> I have written a ton of MMIX, I have only heard of EBC
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01:07:26 <adu> I don't think an opensource EBC assembler exists
01:07:36 <adu> pretty sure the only implementation is intel-cc
01:08:19 <zzo38> Have you used 6502 assembly language and Glulx assembly language?
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02:39:03 <zzo38> Do you know why in the All The Tropes, the anti-heroes goes from I to V but the anti-villains goes only from I to IV and not V?
02:42:25 <kmc> what's an anti-villain
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03:30:26 <adu> what's an anti-hero
03:55:44 <zzo38> It is described in the All The Tropes, I think, what is anti-villain and anti-hero.
03:56:47 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62746&oldid=61763 * A * (+230) /* Computational class */
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04:00:44 <A__> Poking my head in here-is Volatile's instruction set minimal, or can it be minimized?
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04:01:49 <shachaf> A__ isn't happy with just spamming the channel through wiki edits, they have to spam it with text as well.
04:03:37 <shachaf> (The message isn't off-topic but joining the channel, posting one thing, and immediately quitting is spamming behavior.)
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04:08:54 <A__> A__ isn't happy with just spamming the channel through wiki edits, they have to spam it with text as well.
04:09:04 <A__> (The message isn't off-topic but joining the channel, posting one thing, and immediately quitting is spamming behavior.)
04:11:04 <A__> shachaf: fortunately I have time to post messages here. Sorry for immediately quitting...
04:16:00 <esowiki> [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62747&oldid=62737 * A * (+255) /* (Another) Python 3 interpreter */
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04:18:42 <shachaf> int-e: Now you can even get a phone with a 90Hz refresh rate.
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04:22:10 <A__> shachaf: Now you can even get a phone with a 90Hz refresh rate.
04:22:41 <shachaf> A__: Please stop pasting what people say into the channel like that. It's quite rude.
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04:34:33 <esowiki> [[Talk:Along and Across]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62748&oldid=55361 * Zzo38 * (+338)
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05:35:14 <int-e> . o O ( A__ntagonize )
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06:02:18 <esowiki> [[Sticks and Stones]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62749 * Salpynx * (+4754) low-level physical computation model idea, probably incomplete
06:04:47 <esowiki> [[Talk:Volatile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62750&oldid=62727 * JonoCode9374 * (+579) /* Reducing the Command Set */ new section
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06:45:00 <myname> A__dapt, I__mprovide, O__vercome
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06:47:04 <int-e> Oh you can try to impersonate people and bots on IRC, who'd have thought!
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06:48:04 <zzo38> Still, there is the address can be seen; the last octet seems to be changing a bit but the rest of the address is same as before
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06:48:32 <A__> The maximum nickname length is 16 characters.
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06:48:36 <int-e> zzo38: Ah but I filter those, too noisy in general.
06:48:59 <int-e> A__nswering all the important questions.
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06:59:54 <shachaf> I'd prefer to be able to execve my C programs.
07:00:24 <olsner> make a binfmt module that looks for C code
07:00:29 <shachaf> Hmm. Maybe I could define a magic number on my system.
07:01:03 <shachaf> Which is kind of funny, but actually not too bad.
07:01:28 <shachaf> I'd have a binfmt like "//BUILDFLAGS" and include all the cc flags to pass when building a program.
07:02:43 <zzo38> The first line of my C programs have "#if 0" (and then the second line is gcc), so if you do that too, then you can use that, perhaps.
07:02:48 <shachaf> whoa, I have all sorts of weird binfmts already.
07:05:32 <shachaf> Oh, this already exists: https://www.netfort.gr.jp/~dancer/software/binfmtc.html.en
07:08:13 <shachaf> Hmm. Maybe I should just use binfmt to replace #! entirely with something more reasonable.
07:08:53 <zzo38> Is there the possibility to emulate other operating systems and instruction sets if executing a ELF program that specifies those systems (if you have a emulator installed)?
07:10:58 <shachaf> WINE has a binfmt_misc format for executing Windows .exe files.
07:12:00 <zzo38> Does Mono also have one?
07:13:07 <shachaf> I don't know what you do if you want both.
07:18:17 <shachaf> `ls /proc/sys/fs/binfmt_misc
07:18:18 <HackEso> ls: cannot access '/proc/sys/fs/binfmt_misc': No such file or directory
07:18:23 <HackEso> 1 \ 10 \ 11 \ 12 \ 13 \ 14 \ 15 \ 16 \ 18 \ 2 \ 3 \ 4 \ 44 \ 45 \ 46 \ 5 \ 50 \ 51 \ 52 \ 53 \ 54 \ 6 \ 7 \ 8 \ 9 \ buddyinfo \ bus \ cmdline \ consoles \ cpuinfo \ crypto \ devices \ diskstats \ driver \ execdomains \ exitcode \ filesystems \ fs \ interrupts \ iomem \ ioports \ irq \ kallsyms \ kcore \ kmsg \ kpagecount \ kpageflags \ loadavg \ locks \ meminfo \ misc \ mounts \ net \ pagetypeinfo \ partitions \ self \ slabinfo \ softirqs \ stat \ swaps \
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07:39:11 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62751&oldid=62511 * Int-e * (+5377) /* A Turing machine */ New section.
07:40:02 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62752&oldid=62751 * Int-e * (-947) /* Computational class */ update and shorten section
07:43:27 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62753&oldid=62720 * Int-e * (-3684) /* Sketch: A Turing Machine */ replace contents by reference
07:45:05 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62754&oldid=62752 * Int-e * (+0) /* Computational class */ cosmetics
08:09:20 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62755&oldid=62753 * Int-e * (+314) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */ this has moved partially...
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08:45:46 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62756&oldid=62754 * Salpynx * (-16) Update category for TC (I miss the BSM with limited unbounded ability)
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09:10:18 <shachaf> int-e: I still don't know how broken Typeable is right now.
09:10:39 <shachaf> As far as I an tell MD5 is not known to be broken enough to construct Typeable collisions.
09:10:46 <shachaf> But that's mostly an accident.
09:11:15 <int-e> Yeah, same here. A generic 2^64 attack is feasible in principle, of course.
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09:12:03 <shachaf> I wonder how expensive it would be.
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09:12:34 <int-e> too expensive for me :)
09:14:51 <shachaf> https://gist.github.com/epixoip/a83d38f412b4737e99bbef804a270c40 claims 200e9 MD5/s onn 8 GPUs
09:15:16 <shachaf> Presumably fairly recent GPUs because it's a recent paste.
09:16:36 <shachaf> > logBase 2 $ 200e9*60*60*24*1000
09:16:50 <shachaf> So if you ran 1000 of those systems for day that would be pretty close.
09:16:59 <int-e> OTOH, BTC is doing 50e18 SHA1 hashes per second.
09:18:09 <int-e> And that's currently worth about $100k per 10 minutes.
09:18:40 <shachaf> Oh, but we only need 1 second.
09:18:48 <int-e> So if one could harness that kind of power for MD5 at a similar price that would come to about $50 :)
09:19:12 <shachaf> But presumably that's amortizing the cost of ASICs and so on.
09:19:20 <int-e> That's ASIC, cheap electricity, and a huge fixed cost.
09:20:46 <int-e> hmm, right, which hash...
09:21:03 <int-e> Yeah SHA-256. My bad.
09:21:19 <shachaf> Also are those single or double hashes?
09:21:31 <shachaf> Not that it makes a big difference, really.
09:22:18 <int-e> Single I suppose because hash rate is how people sell devices? I don't know.
09:22:26 <int-e> BTC is an annoying curiosity to me, mostly.
09:22:47 <shachaf> My hash function is so powerful that it's not only preimage-resistant but also image-resistant.
09:22:59 <int-e> (More than annoying because all that electricity is being wasted.)
09:23:10 <int-e> shachaf: see argon2 ;-)
09:23:31 <shachaf> I was just thinking maybe key derivation functions qualify.
09:23:50 <shachaf> Anyway, I think it's pretty clear that the whole cryptocurrency currency thing is a net negative.
09:24:46 <shachaf> One thing that's good about it is that it reminds me that even if a lot of people are really into something and think it'll change the world and so on, it might still be nonsense.
09:27:15 <shachaf> Anyway brute-force of 2^64 hashes is clearly feasible for any entity that's really serious about it.
09:27:27 <shachaf> But it seems a little too expensive to say "I told you so".
09:33:20 <int-e> I've been trying to understand differential paths for MD5 for that reason. But progress is slow, and it's not a priority.
09:35:18 <int-e> 2^50 hashes would be quite feasible.
09:35:43 <int-e> But I don't know how realistic that is, with all those fixed zero bits.
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09:36:23 <shachaf> I looked at some papers about MD5 collisions and some algorithms and they all seem very complicated.
09:37:33 <int-e> what annoys me is how so many papers start with "we use the following differential path" and never explain where that ingredient comes from.
09:38:55 <int-e> (They hardly explain what a differential path is.)
09:39:16 <shachaf> Golly. So many things to learn.
09:40:10 <int-e> But once you have that out of the way, the methods rely on computing a huge part of the message from "necessary conditions" before the "point of verification". So that fails when most of the message bits are fixed.
09:41:24 <shachaf> I remember something like that. You figure out some intermediate state and then see what bits of the hashed text must be to produce it.
09:41:48 <shachaf> Er, the text that is to be hashed, not the hash.
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10:26:23 <shachaf> Do you like SAT solver algorithms?
10:28:37 <int-e> There must be a "conflicted" pun in here.
10:29:12 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62757&oldid=62755 * A * (-379)
10:29:40 <shachaf> Do you like "2-watched literal"?
10:30:14 <shachaf> One fancy thing about it is that when you backtrack you don't need to undo any state.
10:31:06 <shachaf> Do you know other backtracking algorithms like that?
10:32:39 <int-e> hmm? this is part of the unit (generally constraint) propagation, not of the backtracking/backjumping.
10:33:10 <shachaf> I mean: Other backtracking algorithms that keep track of state that explicitly doesn't need to be rewound.
10:36:40 <int-e> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.92.705 is worth a look... it just drops constraints during backtrack/backjump, but keeps all other changes to the tableux.
10:38:32 <shachaf> Do you know how well fancy SAT solvers do at exact cover compared to dancing links?
10:39:50 <shachaf> Hmm, that paper looks interesting, I should read it.
10:46:08 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62758&oldid=62508 * A * (+12) bitch is TC
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10:54:12 <wob_jonas> adu: unclear, but I argue on the wiki that MMIX is an esolang
11:01:15 <esowiki> [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62759&oldid=62736 * A * (+46)
11:02:32 <esowiki> [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62760&oldid=62759 * A * (+68)
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11:14:42 <esowiki> [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62761&oldid=62760 * A * (-114)
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11:38:44 <esowiki> [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62762&oldid=62761 * A * (+79) I will undo this edit later.
11:38:55 <esowiki> [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62763&oldid=62762 * A * (-79) Undo revision 62762 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]])
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12:10:47 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Salpynx * uploaded "[[File:Truth-machine.svg.png]]"
12:28:08 <esowiki> [[Sticks and Stones]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62765&oldid=62749 * Salpynx * (+1341) Add example Truth-machine using provisional notation
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12:49:11 <esowiki> [[Steps]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62766 * A * (+143) Created page with "[[Steps]] is an [[esoteric programming language]]. [[Category:Languages]] [[Category:2019]] [[Category:Unimplemented]] [[Category:Non-textual]]"
12:52:35 <esowiki> [[Steps]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62767&oldid=62766 * A * (+455)
12:57:41 <esowiki> [[Steps]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62768&oldid=62767 * A * (+450)
12:57:55 <esowiki> [[Steps]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62769&oldid=62768 * A * (+17) /* Commands demonstrations */
12:59:54 <esowiki> [[Steps]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62770&oldid=62769 * A * (+229) /* Commands demonstrations */ : Go on and fix another section of the page.
13:04:28 <esowiki> [[Steps]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62771&oldid=62770 * A * (+212)
13:17:04 <esowiki> [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62772&oldid=62763 * A * (+7172)
13:17:48 <esowiki> [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62773&oldid=62772 * A * (-7172) Replaced content with "{{lowercase}}"
13:21:36 <esowiki> [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62774&oldid=62773 * A * (+6953)
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13:31:48 <salpynx> here's hoping https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=User:A&oldid=62772 is enough for a troll-ban. Mocking my recent non-textual lang with the troll-page Steps probably isn't enough by itself, but fingers crossed, I'm looking fwd to a quieter wiki tomorrow!
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13:36:33 <salpynx> I don't even ... latest talk page has the removal request discussion.
13:43:47 * salpynx fumes silently.... breath deeply and don't feed the troll
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13:45:42 <Taneb> salpynx: Sticks and Stones looks pretty neat
13:47:07 <salpynx> Taneb: thanks! I've been trying to think of something physical as computation for some time, and this just occurred to me today.
13:48:13 <Taneb> It's a really cool idea! I'm at work right now so I can't look at it too closely but I'm going to go into more detail when I'm free
13:48:49 <salpynx> I keep wavering as to whether I think it is TC as is or not, I'll need play with it a bit and get a feel for what it can do.
13:52:01 <salpynx> Taneb: I look forward to hearing your thoughts!
13:54:49 <salpynx> I need to get to some sleep, and I'll leave on a good note, thanks :)
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14:00:07 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * A * moved [[User:A]] to [[User:A/asdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfa]]: ahahahahhahahhahaa
14:00:07 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * A * moved [[User talk:A]] to [[User talk:A/asdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfa]]: ahahahahhahahhahaa
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14:00:26 <esowiki> [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62779&oldid=62776 * A * (-274) Blanked the page
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14:12:26 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62780&oldid=62778 * A * (-279) Blanked the page
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14:18:20 <esowiki> [[Sticks and Stones]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62781&oldid=62765 * A * (+8) /* IO */ : Interesting. Though "No I/O" does not apply to "many" Turing tarpits; I think it applies to most of them.
14:20:46 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62782&oldid=62780 * Arseniiv * (+223) meh
14:22:31 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62783&oldid=62782 * A * (-223) Blanked the page
14:22:43 <esowiki> [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62784&oldid=62779 * A * (+141)
14:24:04 <arseniiv> okay, *this* is either some psychiatric phenomenon or a clear sign of toxicity
14:24:23 <arseniiv> yeah A dump this one on your dumb too :P
14:24:49 <arseniiv> ah! I deleted the wrong word! it’s a dramaa
14:25:10 <arseniiv> what a foolish time investment
14:25:35 <esowiki> [[Works in progress]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62785&oldid=62519 * A * (+24) Add Sticks and Stones (Note that I made Steps independently of Sticks and Stones.)
14:25:36 <int-e> Please don't feed the animals or knock on the glass.
14:29:13 <arseniiv> should we leave revertion of that edit to salpynx’s page to ais523?
14:30:18 <arseniiv> this situation with A is a total shame :(
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14:34:48 <int-e> Well it should be one of the wiki admins who can properly delete pages and/or revisions. Everything else is pointless.
14:35:47 <arseniiv> yeah, maybe at this stage usual revertion mechanism is useless
14:36:11 <int-e> This is a pity. I feel like there's half a sensible person in A, but it's being dominated by a troll.
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14:37:13 <int-e> And I really really hope they're 13 and will grow out of this.
14:37:55 <arseniiv> I even considered to add a thing about definition of `mod` in the discussion of some lang yesterday, where they were testing (or ❝testing❞) how to write it in terms of arithmetic ops and floored division
14:39:14 <arseniiv> (that’s why I tried to ask a honest question earlier. But here we are, in the land of denial)
14:42:23 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62786&oldid=62757 * Helen * (+325) /* [Disproven] Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */ Yes you can edit it [[User:Salpynx|@Salpynx]]. Have fun!
14:42:23 <int-e> arseniiv: I saw that actually, and I thought that it's hard to ask such a question in a way that cannot be construed as offensive :)
14:43:45 <arseniiv> int-e: agree. Some topics are really tricky when talking to a stranger
14:53:21 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62787&oldid=62756 * Helen * (+0) Case fix: Accumulator-based -> accumulator-based (Sorry it was really bothering me)
14:56:41 <int-e> typical developer machine: svn: command not found
14:57:18 <Taneb> That's true on any machine I have access to that I know of
14:58:21 <int-e> oh well it's easy enough to install :)
14:58:53 <int-e> but I have had this computer for 19 months now and never needed subversion.
14:59:36 <int-e> . o O ( what a weird SCM. They call 'clone' 'checkout' ;-) )
15:02:01 <int-e> Oh does anybody actually like the GNU indentation style? :-/
15:03:06 <int-e> (it's the \if (foo) \ {\ code;\ } style where braces get their own indentation level)
15:04:04 <int-e> I've always thought that it's incredibly ugly.
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15:11:55 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62788&oldid=62786 * Helen * (+148) .
15:12:41 <arseniiv> <int-e> Oh does anybody actually like the GNU indentation style? :-/ => nice question! I was wondering when read about it too
15:14:14 <wob_jonas> just seen on Gil Kalai's blog: Hedetniemi's conjecture about the chromatic number of direct product of graphs is disproved: https://gilkalai.wordpress.com/2019/05/10/sansation-in-the-morning-news-yaroslav-shitov-counterexamples-to-hedetniemis-conjecture/
15:15:57 <int-e> before reading: . o O ( Is this another tera-byte sized SAT-based proof? )
15:16:38 <wob_jonas> int-e: no. short proof by Yaroslav Shitov.
15:18:19 <int-e> Yeah I see. There's a reason why I wrote "before reading" there. This is the kind of thing that sometimes happens these days but I'm not unhappy to be wrong :)
15:19:11 <arseniiv> BTW is there a nontrivial esolang on musical themes? Maybe something about classical harmony (which I don’t understand but it seems a definite enough system to base things on)
15:19:20 <int-e> (and chromatic numbers are the right flavor of combinatorial property for SAT solving to be applicable in principle, of course)
15:22:26 <Taneb> Can someone briefly explain a chromatic number to a distracted Taneb?
15:23:41 <wob_jonas> Taneb: do you want the elementary version or the category theory version?
15:23:57 <Taneb> wob_jonas: whichever
15:24:08 <Taneb> Both in succession, maybe?
15:24:12 <wob_jonas> Yeah, it's worth to understand both.
15:24:21 <int-e> elementary = graph theoretic?
15:24:50 <arseniiv> wow I’m in for category theory version too
15:25:05 <wob_jonas> So we consider simple graphs, which are objects made of a finite set of vertices and a finite set of edges, where each edge must be a set of two vertices.
15:25:37 <wob_jonas> We say that two vertices are neighbors in a graph if one of the edges of the graph is the set of those two vertices.
15:26:00 <wob_jonas> Sometimes vertices are drawn as funny pictures with the vertices as dots, and the edges as lines connecting the two dots containing them.
15:26:08 <wob_jonas> s/times vertices/sometimes graphs/
15:27:33 <wob_jonas> Now a coloring (or sometimes proper coloring) of a graph is a function from the vertices to a set (set of colors) such that for each edge, the two vertices in that edge (called the endpoints of that edge) are mapped to different values (colors) by this function.
15:28:26 <wob_jonas> The chromatic number of a graph is the minimal number such that there's a coloring of that graph with that many colors, that is, a coloring whose range has that many elements.
15:29:19 <Taneb> And this is always 1 <= chromatic number <= |vertices| ?
15:29:26 <wob_jonas> Any graph has a coloring with as many coloring as it has vertices, because the identity function works. But usually we're interested in colorings with smaller set of colors.
15:29:37 <Taneb> ...unless there's zero vertices I guess
15:29:45 <wob_jonas> Taneb: yes, the chromatic number of a graph with no vertices is 0
15:30:32 <wob_jonas> Finding the chromatic number is considered an interesting problem, and there are tons of more fancy theorems about it, such as the famous or infamous four color theorem which says that the chromatic number of a planar graph is at most 4,
15:31:19 <wob_jonas> there's a quick algorithm to tell if a graph can be colored by 1 or 2 colors, but it's NP-complete to tell whether it can be colored by 3 colors (or any other number larger than 2),
15:31:59 <Taneb> A graph can be 1-coloured if and only if there's no edges?
15:33:04 <wob_jonas> anyway, there are a lot of theorems and conjectures about this stuff
15:33:21 <wob_jonas> And one of them is Hedetniemi's conjecture, recently disproved
15:33:25 <Taneb> I guess for two colours you can just... give it a go, because once you've assigned a vertex a colour your hand is forced
15:33:52 <wob_jonas> For that one, you have to know what the categorical product (or tensor product or direct product) of two graphs is, which is another graph.
15:34:04 <int-e> ah bipartite graphs :)
15:34:37 <int-e> wob_jonas: how do you tell "chromatic number" and "chormatic index" apart?
15:34:50 <wob_jonas> int-e: they're totally different things
15:35:04 <int-e> I know but how do you remember which one is which?
15:35:23 <wob_jonas> int-e: dunno, I'm a mathematician and researched graph theory, I just know
15:38:25 <wob_jonas> If you have a graph with vertex set V_0 and edge set E_0, and a secnd graph with vertex set V_1 and edge set E_1, then their categorical product is defined as a graph whose vertex set is the cartesian product V_0 × V_1, and the edge set is the set of {(u_0,u_1),(v_0,v_1)} such that {u_0,v_0} in E_0 and {u_1,v_1} in E_1.
15:39:44 <wob_jonas> Now an interesting thing about the categorical product is that if you have a coloring p of the first graph, then it's trivial to find a coloring p' of the product graph with the same set of colors: just make p'((v_0,v_1)) := p(v_0)
15:40:15 <wob_jonas> This means that the chromatic number of a categorical product graph is at most the min of the chromatic number of its two factors.
15:40:53 <wob_jonas> The Hedetniemi conjecture stated that there's always an equality here, you can't find a better coloring for a categorical product graph than you get from this.
15:41:04 <wob_jonas> And this conjecture is now apparently disproved.
15:41:19 <arseniiv> (also sorry about that zero remark, it’s perfectly consistent with the definition, I had a misplaced association with degree of a polynomial that time)
15:42:07 <wob_jonas> A graph is called complete if all possible edges are in it, that is, if {u,v} is in the edge set of every two different vertices u and v.
15:42:42 <wob_jonas> The chromatic number of a complete graph is equal to its number of vertices, because you must color any two vertexes a different color, so any coloring needs at least as many colors as vertices.
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15:47:00 <wob_jonas> Taneb: makes sense so far? If so, I'll tell the category theoretical view.
15:47:21 <Taneb> Yeah, I understand so far
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15:49:43 <wob_jonas> Now if we have two graphs (V_0,E_0) and (V_1,E_1), then we say that a function p is a homomorphism from the first graph to the second if it's a function from V_0 to V_1 and for every {u,v} in E_0, {p(u),p(v)} is in E_1.
15:50:50 <wob_jonas> We can use this to define what we call the category of graphs, in which the objects are each graph, and the morphisms are a graph homomorphism considered together with the two graphs it goes between.
15:52:33 <wob_jonas> An injective graph homomorphism is called a graph isomorphism, which is important in the sense that questions of graph theory usually care about graphs only up to isomorphisms.
15:53:02 <wob_jonas> An injective graph homomorphism whose inverse function is also a graph homomorpism is called a graph isomorpism,
15:53:06 <wob_jonas> which is important in the sense that questions of graph theory usually care about graphs only up to isomorphisms.
15:53:16 <wob_jonas> But that's not too important here.
15:53:51 <Taneb> Does that work out to be an isomorphism in the usual category theory sense?
15:53:54 <wob_jonas> What is important is that a graph coloring with a set of colors is exactly a homomorpism from the graph to the complete graph on the set of colors (that is, the set of colors is the set of vertices of the graph).
15:54:24 <wob_jonas> Taneb: I'm not sure, I don't really know category theory, so I don't know what counts as an isomorpihsm in the usual category theory sense... let me look that up.
15:56:01 <wob_jonas> Now the categorical product of graphs is called that because it turns out that it's exactly the product in the category theory sense in the category of graphs.
15:57:10 <wob_jonas> This means that for any two graphs G_0 and G_1, there's a homomorphism f: (G_0 x G_1) -> G_0, and a homomorphism g: (G_0 x G_1) -> G_1, plus one other property
15:58:14 <wob_jonas> If you have a coloring p: G_0 -> K_n where K_n is a complete graph on n colors, then you can compose the above morphism f with p, and you get a coloring of the product graph with n colors.
15:58:58 <Taneb> So we get the weak Hetedniemi statement for free
15:59:12 <wob_jonas> Yes, that part is trivial either way.
15:59:46 <Taneb> (I see it clearer in the category theory notation because I've got more practice with that, I gues)
16:00:10 <wob_jonas> Right, this is #esoteric, which is why I thought it was worth to know the category theoretic view.
16:00:31 <Taneb> I've got Categories for the Working Mathematician sat on my desk ;P
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16:00:59 <wob_jonas> Now there are other graph coloring questions in the broader sense that ask when there is a homomorphism from one graph to another.
16:01:55 <wob_jonas> For this, only the homomorphism type of a graph matters, where the homomorphism type of a graph G is the set of graphs H such that there's both a G -> H homomorphism and a H -> G homomorpism.
16:02:29 <wob_jonas> The homomorphism types form a sort of equivalence classes broader than the isomorphism types.
16:02:53 <wob_jonas> There are graphs that have homomorphisms to each other but aren't isomorphic, because one of them has more vertices than the other.
16:03:08 <Taneb> Can you give an example?
16:03:30 <Taneb> Oh, like the graph of a single vertex and the graph of two disconnected vertices?
16:03:31 <wob_jonas> The smallest example is an empty graph on one vertices and an empty graph on two vertices.
16:04:05 <wob_jonas> A more interesting example is a graph with two vertices and an edge between them, and a graph with four vertices and four edges going around them in a cycle (a cycle graph on four vertices).
16:04:18 <wob_jonas> Oh, and the vertices are sometimes called "nodes" too.
16:04:52 <wob_jonas> But it's worth to know (and not too hard to prove) that any isomorphism class has a smallest graph in it up to isomorphism, we can consider that graph the representative of that homomorphism class.
16:05:22 <wob_jonas> In the above cases, the graph with two vertices and no edge, and the graph with two vertices and one edge are such smallest representatives.
16:05:31 <Taneb> Do you mean any homomorphism class?
16:05:50 <wob_jonas> Any homorphism class has a smallest graph in it up to isomorphism
16:06:35 <wob_jonas> It's also worth to know that there are three special homomorphism classes in some sense: that of the graph with no vertices, that of the graphs with no edges, and that of 2-colorable graphs (including the one with only one edge).
16:06:58 <wob_jonas> These three homomorphism classes sit on the bottom of the partially ordered set of homomorphism classes,
16:07:34 <wob_jonas> in the sense that if a graph has a homomorphism from it to one of these classes, then that graph definitely falls into one of those homomorphism classes.
16:07:47 <wob_jonas> But these are the only simple ones, because there's no one next bigger class.
16:08:03 <wob_jonas> Above that the partial ordered set of homomorphism classes gets sort of dense.
16:08:48 <wob_jonas> In particular, you can take odd cycle graphs, which are graphs on an odd number of vertexes, with as many edges as they have vertexes, the edges connecting them cyclically.
16:09:26 <wob_jonas> There's a homomorphism from the 5-cycle to the 3-cycle but not backwards, a homomorphism from the 5-cycle to the 7-cycle but not backwards, one from the 7-cycle to the 9-cycle but not backwards, etc.
16:09:58 <wob_jonas> And there's a homomorphism from any of those cycles to the homomorphism class of 2-colorable graphs, which by the way includes any cycle graph on an _even_ number of points.
16:11:04 <Taneb> So there's a chain that goes 2-colorable < 3-cycle < 5-cycle < 7-cycle...
16:11:51 <wob_jonas> no vertexes < empty (no edges) < 2-colorable < ... < 7-cycle < 5-cycle < 3-cycle = 3-complete < 4-complete < 5-complete < ...
16:12:03 <wob_jonas> but those are just a few classes, there are much more, and they're not completely ordered
16:12:51 <Taneb> Can you give an example of two incomparable homomorphism types?
16:14:18 <wob_jonas> that's a good question, I'm not sure what a small example is, and it probably needs over a dozen vertices or something
16:14:32 <wob_jonas> I'm not sure what's the simplest example
16:14:51 <wob_jonas> I'll have to leave for an hour or two now, but I can answer later I think
16:15:04 <wob_jonas> a reference book about this topic is Pavol Hell, Jaroslav Nesetril, ''Graphs and Homomorphisms''
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16:16:19 <Taneb> Don't worry about the example
16:16:53 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: an interesting introduction btw
16:17:05 <Taneb> That was an enjoyable explanation! Thank you wob_jonas
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16:43:45 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62789&oldid=62788 * Helen * (+7232) /* [Complete] Equivalency between bitch and Home Row by User:Helen */ Proof completed. Feel free to review!
16:44:42 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62790&oldid=62789 * Helen * (+16) /* [Complete] Equivalency between bitch and Home Row by User:Helen */ Fixed timestamp
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17:07:41 <b_jonas> Taneb: I thought about your question.
17:08:27 <b_jonas> The simplest examples for two grpahs with no homomorphism among them in either direction is the K_3 complete graph on three vertices (3-cycle, triangle) with the M_4 Micielsky graph, which has 11 vertices and 20 edges.
17:09:58 <b_jonas> The vertex set of the latter is {0,1,2,3,4,0',1',2',3',4',I} and the edge set is {{0,1},{0,1'},{0',1}, {1,2},{1,2'},{1',2}, {2,3},{2,3'},{2',3}, {3,4},{3,4'},{3',4}, {4,0},{4,0'},{4',0}, {0',I},{1',I},{2',I},{3',I},{4',I}}.
17:10:29 <b_jonas> The smallest example is probably K_3 with the KG_{2/5} Kneser graph, the latter has 10 vertices and 15 edges, but it's likely harder to understand why that works.
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17:59:49 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62791&oldid=62787 * Int-e * (+291) /* ROT13 */
18:01:45 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62792&oldid=62791 * Int-e * (+0) /* ROT13 */ fix link
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18:05:49 <int-e> (No big deal, but I managed to save rather than preview there... hmpf.)
18:11:32 <b_jonas> s/Micielsky graph/Mycielsky graph/
18:11:59 <myname> https://www.redbubble.com/de/people/arunsundibob/works/12126978-stress-reduction-kit?p=kids-clothes i don't think this is an apropriate potive for clothing
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18:27:10 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62793&oldid=62792 * Helen * (+2118) Added the [[bitch#Unclear|Unclear]] section to help with clarifying the article; Fixed general formatting and grammar.
18:28:15 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62794&oldid=62793 * Int-e * (-4) /* ROT13 */ golfing
18:43:03 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62795&oldid=62794 * Int-e * (-29) /* More Bitwise Operations */ fix typo; clarify
18:44:12 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62796&oldid=62795 * Int-e * (-136) /* Unclear */ that was a typo. I'll leave the section for now in case something else turns up
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20:25:51 <arseniiv> b_jonas: thank you for graph example from me too
20:32:14 <arseniiv> b_jonas: am I intuit right that homomorphisms (and h. classes) of directed graph are way more disciplined?
20:33:26 <arseniiv> there at least would be no morphisms from a cycle to nonisomorphic cycle, except corner cases
20:35:08 <arseniiv> C_(2n+1) → C_(2n−1) for undirected graphs slightly surprised me even after I sat and thought how it worked
20:47:17 <b_jonas> arseniiv: I don't know what "more disciplined" means, but you can get graphs and graph homomorphisms as a special case of digraphs and digraph homomorphisms, because if you only consider symmetric digraphs (ones that have the reverse of every arc as an arc) then they behave like a grpah, and any graph can be represented as such a digraph
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20:58:47 <arseniiv> b_jonas: ah I forgot about symmetric digraph
21:01:12 <rain1> what about permutive programming languages?
21:01:25 <rain1> a language where shuffling the source code effects no change
21:01:51 <rain1> and dont just put the line number before each line
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21:23:38 <arseniiv> rain1: BTW I thought about a language where you specify a figure (something amorphous, not like in Piet or fungeoids) and its geometry, or topology, should somewhat give a program. Hadn’t came up with anything concrete, though :(
21:25:48 <arseniiv> though TC cellular automata may be considered as a realization of this idea. Maybe one should require that the source figure be connected
21:27:02 <arseniiv> (hm yes, I think it definitely should be connected. But it can have holes if it’s more than 2D)
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21:30:09 <arseniiv> if it’s more than 2D => hm, why, it can have holes in this case too
21:31:14 <salpynx> rain1: re. shuffling source, string and graph rewriting langs like Thue and Eodermdrome have rules that don't have to be listed in order.
21:32:43 <salpynx> I was trying to write an Eodermdrome program to generate random numbers, but all the existing interpreters chose the first listed rule when there are multiple choices. My solution was to run my code through linux's shuf to mix up the non-deterministic parts
21:33:18 <arseniiv> if we have a 2D figure, its boundary is a curve, and I did see an esolang there that interprets turns of a curve, though IIRC, not a closed one, but it shouldn’t be an issue, though then it would be simply a reformulation of that esolang’s idea
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21:36:15 <salpynx> oh, but Thue has two sections which must be kept in order. Re-writing rules in general give you a way to shuffle without needing line numbers
21:43:15 <arseniiv> mhm, about specifically a shuffle-proof *esoteric* language, one can encode the normal code string using counts of different characters or words. E. g. from a final code, take list of all (space-delimited) words in it, sort them lexicographically, and take occurence count of each one to be the code of a character (in some encoding), resulting in a code in a certain other language. But this idea looks sort of too plain-remixy
21:44:03 <arseniiv> s/resulting in a code/resulting in a source
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21:58:23 <b_jonas> rain1: re programs where you're allowed to shuffle the source code, recent discussion about that at https://esolangs.org/logs/2019-04-01.html#lrb
22:21:37 <salpynx> heh, I've talked about that Eodermdrome idea here before. I should just finish writing it
22:26:15 <arseniiv> hm one could try to make a language where each line describes a “molecule” (and in notation maybe akin to SMILES) and these molecules can “react”, resulting in new ones, according to set rules. I see indeterministic (in general) reactions between pairs of these molecules, some having side effects. Again this idea is too vague in this form
22:30:01 <arseniiv> I think for this idea there would be no point to stick to usual matter conservation, so the number of “atoms” of specific sort could well change in a reaction, and it would be great if the only state of the program is the pool of those molecular graphs, but it could be unsuitable
22:32:15 <arseniiv> something like this was quite possibly already described
22:54:13 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62798&oldid=62790 * Helen * (+16) /* Random access cell-based memory */ Changed name to be more descriptive and less wrong
22:57:42 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62799&oldid=62798 * Helen * (+28) Fixed other incorrect, relevant mentions of tape
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23:24:46 <orin> *sokʷh₂yóteh₂ti *gʷíh₃womos
23:25:04 <esowiki> [[Sticks and Stones]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62800&oldid=62781 * Salpynx * (+629) /* Examples */ Hello World, and basic interpreter to see it work, in case you don't live near a suitable wood and prefer computation to be done for you by computers
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00:33:38 <salpynx> orin: *gʷíh₃womos seems to be "we live"? 1st thematic pl. of gʷih₃wós , and the first word is .... something about stealing juice? He steals juice that we might live? Sounds Biblical.
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04:09:22 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62802&oldid=62797 * A * (+115) Another significant proof was ignored
04:18:42 <esowiki> [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62803&oldid=62784 * A * (+77)
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05:32:48 <esowiki> [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62805&oldid=62804 * JonoCode9374 * (-3) /* (Another) Python 3 interpreter */ Fixed the bug where it would always come up saying 'empty stack'
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08:35:16 <esowiki> [[Volatile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62806&oldid=62805 * TuxCrafting * (+3) Undo revision 62805 by [[Special:Contributions/JonoCode9374|JonoCode9374]] ([[User talk:JonoCode9374|talk]]) dup'ing an empty stack is supposed to error. not a bug.
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11:59:01 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62807&oldid=62802 * Int-e * (+29) update links to new repo name
12:00:36 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62808&oldid=62801 * Int-e * (-2) update links
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12:11:29 <int-e> Ah, Leela (Chess Zero) is now officially the one-eyed leading the blind... it convincingly beat Stockfish in the TCEC final with a +7 score in 100 games.
12:13:16 <int-e> (Though the zero is no longer quite accurate; as I understand it, Leela is incorporating tablebase endgame knowledge somehow. The keyword is "tablebase rescoring".)
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12:22:27 <wob_jonas> whoa, python's struct.pack puts endianness modifiers before the type marker in the pack template, whereas perl puts it after.
12:26:05 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62809&oldid=62726 * Unlimiter * (+12) /* P */
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12:27:32 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[User:A]]": using user page history to disrupt the wiki and attack people
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12:27:38 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62811&oldid=62810 * Unlimiter * (+12) /* P */
12:28:35 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/protect]] protect * Ais523 * protected "[[User:A [create=sysop] (indefinite)]]": this userpage was being used for disruption / as an attack page rather than for any beneficial purposes, thus salting
12:29:15 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[User:A/asdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfa]]": now being used primarily as an attack page
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12:37:50 <esowiki> [[Point]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62812&oldid=62744 * Unlimiter * (-4)
12:38:27 <ais523> <arseniiv> should we leave revertion of that edit to salpynx’s page to ais523? ← a) don't revert edits just because of who makes them, b) feel free to revert edits because of their content or because you disagree with them, c) if someone is persistently acting in an obnoxious way (making attack pages, etc.) it will probably need admin involvement to stop them, but for things that don't need admin involvement you can fix them yourself
12:38:38 <esowiki> [[Point]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62813&oldid=62812 * Unlimiter * (+31)
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12:41:14 <ais523> if User:A has been attacking pages in a widespread or systematic way, I can do a total or partial block, but short of that, any edits to pages created by other users should be treated on a case-by-case basis (the creator of a page doesn't have /control/ of it; but if you disagree with the meaning or style of someone else's edit, you can revert it regardless of who made the page, unless it causes a revert war)
12:41:54 <ais523> or, I guess the policy is "for small-scale problems, you can try to fix them yourself, if it becomes a large-scale problem or there's a disagreement with two people reverting back and forth, ask for admin help"
12:42:33 <esowiki> [[Bit**]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62814 * A * (+19) Redirect bit** to bitch to prevent people from offensing others
12:43:39 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62815&oldid=62807 * A * (+15) I don't want the redirect to be forgotten...
12:45:04 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62816&oldid=62815 * Ais523 * (-15) Undo revision 62815 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]]): in the vast majority of circumstances, there is no point on linking a redirect back to the page you're currently on, and this is not an exception
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12:47:29 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62817&oldid=62816 * A * (+92) Okay. Clarify
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12:59:09 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62818&oldid=62808 * Int-e * (+1418) /* [Complete] Equivalency between bitch and Home Row by User:Helen */ revive a comment, and add a few more
12:59:45 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62819&oldid=62818 * Int-e * (+0) /* [Complete] Equivalency between bitch and Home Row by User:Helen */ (probably) correct indices
13:03:27 <esowiki> [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62820&oldid=62806 * A * (-47) /* Infinite loop */
13:05:15 <wob_jonas> `python3 -cimport sys; print(sys.getrefcount(8))
13:05:24 <wob_jonas> `python3 -cimport sys; print(sys.getrefcount(0))
13:05:55 <wob_jonas> those numbers don't match what my python says. does that mean I have a fake python?
13:07:11 <int-e> "The count returned is generally one higher than you might expect" ;-)
13:07:35 <int-e> clearly by induction the function should return infinity.
13:08:42 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62821&oldid=62817 * A * (+7) /* Computational class */ : Uh huh, so that was currently invalid. I will uncomment it if [[User:Helen|@Helen]] successfully proved that.
13:09:02 <wob_jonas> admittedly it's a different version of python
13:09:19 <wob_jonas> `python3 -cimport sys; print(sys.version)
13:09:20 <HackEso> 3.5.3 (default, Sep 27 2018, 17:25:39) \ [GCC 6.3.0 20170516]
13:09:25 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62822&oldid=62821 * A * (+0) /* Computational class */ : Sorry, I covered a matching bracket
13:09:32 <int-e> but anyway, no. openat(AT_FDCWD, "/usr/lib/python3.7/__pycache__/sitecustomize.cpython-37.pyc", O_RDONLY|O_CLOEXEC) = 3
13:09:50 <int-e> so I bet it depends on the python packages that are installed.
13:10:47 <int-e> python2 '-cimport sys; print(sys.getrefcount(0))' => 394; python3 '-cimport sys; print(sys.getrefcount(0))' => 246 is what I have here atm.
13:13:40 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62823&oldid=62819 * A * (+7) /* Memory equivalence */ : Wow, it is really cool putting the signature into code snippets! (I will remove that though)
13:21:56 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62824&oldid=62823 * Int-e * (+0) /* Memory equivalence */ move </code> to intended place (sorry for missing that in the first place!)
13:25:07 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62825&oldid=62824 * A * (+212) /* [Complete] Equivalency between bitch and Home Row by User:Helen */
13:27:00 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62826&oldid=62825 * A * (-46) /* [Complete] Equivalency between bitch and Home Row by User:Helen */
13:27:56 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62827&oldid=62826 * A * (-167) Undo revision 62826 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]]): No, that was wrong!
13:41:15 <john_metcalf> That Bytemark link at the bottle of the esolang wiki leads to a dead page
13:44:19 <int-e> Hmm, fizzie's Bytemark's esolang contact?
14:11:26 <arseniiv> I had an impression N ⋊_ϕ H ≅ (N ⋊_id im ϕ) × ker ϕ (group theory) but now I think it’s wrong
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14:19:06 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62828&oldid=62783 * A * (+1727)
14:19:19 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62829&oldid=62828 * A * (+17)
14:19:31 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62830&oldid=62829 * A * (-1744) Blanked the page
14:26:04 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * A * moved [[User talk:A/asdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfa]] to [[User:A/asdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfa
14:46:33 <HackEso> Pirates are humourously nautical persons. Their grammar is friendly and plural.
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15:34:37 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ais523 * moved [[User:A/asdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfa]] to [[User talk:A]]: user talk pages shouldn't be move
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15:35:40 <ais523> err, esowiki, are you OK?
15:37:01 <int-e> this clearly is too much drama for the bots.
15:37:24 <ais523> it's not even drama really, that'd require multiple people on each side of the argument
15:37:48 <ais523> it's just someone being disruptive and me gradually turning their permissions lower and lower in response to them demonstrating that they can't be trusted to use them correctly
15:38:06 <int-e> . o O ( Shakespeare made a lot of drama all by himself. )
15:39:10 <shachaf> Now they overflowed the bot's buffer.
15:40:18 <ais523> it's annoying because I normally use the bot to monitor esowiki's recent changes (often via the logs), now I have to check them directly
15:40:56 <wob_jonas> like at https://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:RecentChanges ?
15:41:06 <ais523> the funny thing is that I actually missed that A's user talk page had gotten renamed (as I was concentrating on the userpage rename), then A's further screwing about made it obvious what had happened and so I could fix it
15:41:29 <ais523> being able to read #esoteric and the recent changes at the same time saves on pages to open, also the stalker-mode logs update automatically
15:42:15 <shachaf> Did you see the bit where they joined the channel, pasted criticisms of themselves from the logs into it, and then quit?
15:43:04 <ais523> they're trying to be passive-agressive but aren't very good at it
15:44:37 <ais523> they could be a good user if they stopped trying to test the boundaries of what's allowed and stopped intentionally antagonising people…
15:44:51 <ais523> (and stopped jumping to conclusions about computational class0
15:45:02 <shachaf> if you're going to be a complete jerk you could at least be witty about it or something
15:45:36 <int-e> . o O ( and we all know how that goes )
15:52:35 <wob_jonas> python's struct.unpack takes the count and endianness modifier before the type letter in the pattern
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16:50:25 <fizzie> We're in HEXHAM. So exotic. One could even say, esoteric.
16:50:54 <HackEso> Hexham es la ciudad mas importante de programación esotérico.
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16:53:18 <shachaf> you're breaking everything
16:53:36 <ais523> fizzie: esowiki the bot is down
16:54:05 <ais523> also the bytemark link in the footer is a 404
16:54:37 <ais523> also, did you go to hexham because #esoteric or did you somehow go there for an unrelated reason?
16:56:08 <fizzie> A bit from column A, a bit from column B. We're mostly driving around Northumberland, but staying a night in Hexham was #esoteric-motivated.
16:56:26 <fizzie> Not sure what's wrong with the bot though.
16:56:35 <ais523> OK, because if it were coincidence, I'm not sure I could deal with it :-D
16:56:59 <ais523> the bot may have had a buffer overflow? User:A created a page with a ridiculously long name and the bot crashed when I tried to clean up after it
16:58:09 <shachaf> Is fizzie the only person in this channel in Hexham?
16:58:42 <ais523> we used to have multiple channel regulars in Hexham, which was an absurd coincidence beause it has a population of ~12000
16:59:26 <fizzie> It's supposed to just cut long messages. But there could be an bug.
16:59:46 <rain1> i cant believe IOCCC is done
17:00:05 <rain1> has it really been a year since last IOCCC
17:00:37 <ais523> even taking the birthday paradox into account, you wouldn't a channel of 85 people to have two unrelated regulars living in the same small town
17:04:13 <fizzie> The bot had indeed died of SIGSEGV. Sounds buggy.
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17:05:56 <fizzie> Trying to restart it makes it die of the same thing.
17:06:17 <fizzie> I don't think I'll get this fixed before dinner. Will have a look later.
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18:13:33 <b_jonas> fizzie: is the channel log collecting process down?
18:14:31 <b_jonas> for the logs at esolang.org
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18:16:44 <orin> *sokʷh₂yóteh₂ti *gʷíh₃womos : We live in a society in PIE
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18:18:52 <ais523> b_jonas: apparently, it must be esowiki who's collecting the logs because they stopped when it segfaulted
18:26:22 <b_jonas> ais523: oh, there could be a connection
18:31:01 <b_jonas> ah I see, fizzie already knows about the problem
18:31:08 <b_jonas> (jsut checked the logs at tunes)
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18:47:15 <b_jonas> the advancement of solid state is amazing. when I was a child, little girls had shoes with red leds built into the side of their soles, flashing red at every step they took. now little girls have shoes with multi-colored leds built into them, which can flash in various colors including blue.
18:48:22 <b_jonas> if one of those were transported back in time, the little girl who wore them would be an envy of all their classmates
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18:53:09 <b_jonas> blue leds and blue lasers, totally magical
18:54:08 <kmc> I remember when blue LEDs were expensive and so they were a mark of high quality equipment
18:54:18 <kmc> then they became cheap and now every cheap shit from china is covered in unreasonably bright blue LEDs
18:54:34 <kmc> perhaps "high quality" is the wrong word but "expensive" anyway. think early 00s Sony
18:55:04 <kmc> in the past I had a computer case with a blue LED and I had to put a resistor in series to dim it
18:55:52 <kmc> b_jonas: what's also pretty cool is that you can buy RGB (or RGBW) leds like WS2812 in a standard 5050 package that have a controller chip on-board, so you can build a whole string of them and control them all individually with one data line
18:56:39 <kmc> this has made projects with many LEDs tremendously less of a pain in the ass and has lead to a boom in the amount of Burning Man style blinky LED art (we have some of that in public areas in SF, it's pretty cool)
18:56:48 <kmc> in Seoul it seemed every skyscraper was covered in RGB LEDs
18:57:36 <ais523> kmc: what's the protocol like? two power, one data? two power, one data, one clock? one power, one data?
18:58:19 <kmc> ais523: power, ground and async serial (meaning it has precise timing requirements)
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18:58:43 <ais523> IIRC even RS-232 can be driven without a clock
18:58:53 <ais523> I can't remember offhand how many pins are actually necessary, but it isn't very many
18:58:54 <kmc> https://cdn-shop.adafruit.com/datasheets/WS2812.pdf
18:59:03 <kmc> ais523: RS-232 is *always* async
18:59:07 <ais523> the way it works is to send small bursts of clock signals in between the data so that the receiver can resync
18:59:27 <kmc> that's still async in my book, but with a method for one side to derive the clock
18:59:39 <kmc> but you can't arbitrarily change the timing between any two bits like you can with SPI
18:59:47 <kmc> might be called pleisiosynchronous
18:59:59 <kmc> another way to do that is Manchester encoding
19:00:06 <kmc> I have used that for a project with a single unidirectional data line
19:00:14 <b_jonas> kmc: I have a sheet of paper over the blue led of my voltage spike filtering electric socket thingy that is always on because the computer and the router are plugged into it
19:00:29 <kmc> the WS2812 has built in PWM control with 8 bits x 3 or 4 channels of dimming
19:00:49 <kmc> this means a full framebuffer is actually outside the RAM capacity of many microcontrollers, depending of course on how many LEDs you have
19:01:16 <FireFly> I need to do something with the WS2812 rolls I bought last year..
19:01:22 <ais523> wow, the protocol given there is bizarre
19:01:29 <ais523> hold times are different for 0 bits and 1 bits
19:01:38 <FireFly> yeah, it seems a bit funky
19:01:38 <kmc> yeah *shrug*
19:01:43 <kmc> it's wacky
19:01:46 <kmc> but you can get libraries for most platforms
19:01:56 <kmc> you can even drive it from Raspberry Pi, taking advantage of the built in PWM and DMA hardware
19:02:44 <kmc> 1-Wire seems to also have fixed timing
19:03:25 <kmc> a few cool things about 1-wire: a) each device has a unique 64-bit ID b) you can have arbitrarily many on the same bus, limited only by electrical characteristics
19:03:31 <ais523> my guess is that the protocol simplifies the circuitry in the decoder somehow
19:03:36 <kmc> c) you can multiplex power and data onto the same line if desired
19:03:39 <b_jonas> yes, RS-232 uses a data line where a byte can be delayed by any amount of time, but within the byte, the bits are placed at fixed time offsets after the leading edge of the byte
19:04:04 <kmc> same with RS-485 and RS-422
19:04:10 <b_jonas> but you need hardware that can interpret data with flexible timing anyway to read disks or casettes
19:04:18 <b_jonas> and they've had those ages ago
19:04:23 <kmc> which are pretty much the same "link layer" on top of a different hardware layer (full or half duplex differential signalling)
19:04:34 <b_jonas> so it's not too surprising that it's done on communication lines like ethernet in modern hardware
19:05:22 <kmc> you can expect an ethernet device to have a precise clock
19:05:25 <b_jonas> RS-232 is simpler because it uses fixed times for the bits rather than flexible times
19:05:31 <kmc> not so much for a tiny cheap micro running off an internal RC oscillator
19:05:45 <b_jonas> I mean, obviously there's some tolerance because the sending side holds each bit for a short time,
19:05:52 <b_jonas> but it's not adaptive to different speeds
19:06:00 <b_jonas> whereas the casette and disk need to be
19:07:12 <kmc> I have also seen designs for combining RS-232/485 and power on the same wires
19:08:02 <kmc> by applying a DC offset, and AC-coupling the data at the other end, while drawing power through a series inductor
19:08:12 <b_jonas> what surprises me is the "power over ethernet" protocol. the power goes through two separate wires that are in addition to the four for normal ethernet. that's not the surprising part. the surprising part is that they send an immense amount of power through thin wires and tiny connectors.
19:08:46 <kmc> b_jonas: that's why it uses 48 volts
19:09:05 <kmc> so that it's only about an amp per conductor
19:09:12 <kmc> but still seems like a lot, yeah
19:09:18 <kmc> most telecom stuff uses 48V
19:09:27 <kmc> as well as server racks that do DC power with in the rack
19:09:32 <ais523> some people have claimed to demonstrate devices doing impossible things, e.g. producing more output than the power they're given as input, it's suspected that the results were faked via putting a DC offset on the live wire (which an AC-measuring voltmeter wouldn't see)
19:09:54 <kmc> a lot of RF amplifiers are powered through a DC offset on either the input or the output
19:09:56 <b_jonas> but sure, in general there's an obvious trend for connectors to use fewer and fewer wires
19:10:50 <b_jonas> you see it in USB, SD cards, SIM cards
19:12:08 <j4cbo> fuck the WS2812 though
19:12:22 <j4cbo> it has obnoxiously slow pwm and I can see the pwm artifacts
19:12:55 <j4cbo> b_jonas: PoE uses the center taps of the transformer
19:13:24 <j4cbo> it *can* use the spare pairs if it’s a 10/100 device... but there are no spare pairs with gigabit Ethernet
19:13:30 <b_jonas> HDMI and Displayport have fewer wires than DVI too
19:14:41 <b_jonas> j4cbo: from the side of your eyes, or even when looking directly at it?
19:15:04 <j4cbo> only when moving my eyes
19:15:44 <j4cbo> apa102 are much better, and have an easier protocol (basically just regular spi) too
19:16:59 <fizzie> Blargh. It just immediately segfaults in std::thread::detach by jumping to 0. I think this isn't going to be something I can feasibly fix over the phone.
19:17:23 <fizzie> Won't be back home until next weekend though.
19:18:07 <fizzie> I'll backfill the logs later, but it's going to stay down for now. :/
19:19:09 <j4cbo> https://goo.gl/photos/vT8E1EMwJc16TFfHA
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20:32:49 <orin> I would prefer having more wires if it reduces latency
20:33:00 <orin> specifically for video connectors
20:33:57 <ais523> more wires normally improves throughput rather than latency
20:34:08 <ais523> although it depends on the protocl
20:34:19 <ais523> there will be a small latency improvement but typically only one words' worth
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20:34:54 <orin> ais523: I was thinking the improvement would be by having less muxing
20:35:48 <ais523> hmm, I guess it depends on how much of the throughput is actually used in common circumstances
20:36:00 <ais523> I'm assuming that all of it would be, but you'd get an improvement if the throughput is mostly not used
20:36:25 <ais523> as it allows you to use your additional throughput to save latency if you've been idle for a while and suddenly have to send messages to a lot of sources at once
20:36:31 <ais523> err, destinations, not sources
20:37:25 <orin> also, at a practical level, these thinner wires and smaller connecters are flimsy
20:38:16 <orin> micro-displayport or whatever it's called
20:39:23 <orin> I never had a video connector fray before
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22:48:14 <rdococ> In my understanding, a delimited continuation could be stored as two continuations - the point where the delimited continuation starts, and the point where it returns to its invoker.
22:48:45 <rdococ> Can a delimited continuation be delimited, then, by two continuations that are themselves delimited? Does this make sense? (I'm not asking anyone, I'm just putting an idea forward.)
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23:16:48 <shachaf> Can you do constant-time sorts better than a sorting network with some kind of non-comparison sort?
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23:19:15 <int-e> what is there, besides radix sort (which is obviously not an option) and comparison-based sorts (or min/max sort, if you want to have fixed control flow)?
23:20:53 <shachaf> You can implement constant-time min/max using clever bitwise tricks if you don't have an instruction for them.
23:21:05 <shachaf> Maybe something like that can extend to more than two elements?
23:21:45 <int-e> I guess bogosort can be implemented in a side-channel free fashion ;-).
23:22:59 <shachaf> Is there any instruction set that has a min+max instruction?
23:30:26 <int-e> intel has vectorized min and max (separately) at least.
23:31:56 <int-e> And I guess having a combined instruction would be hard for them... because otherwise, the architecture never has more than a single output register.
23:32:24 <int-e> So it's likely that even if there was a combined min/max instruction it would become 2 microops.
23:32:52 <int-e> (for all I know, which is not too much)
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23:57:00 <salpynx> fungot: I have a suspicion that the esolangs.org/logs are not updating, what are your thoughts?
23:57:00 <fungot> salpynx: " fnord department for, well, one of nature's born fnord. why, hadn't he? to bes pelargic the empire's only proper seaport.
23:58:29 <shachaf> It's true. The bot crashed on that long wiki page rename.
00:02:06 <salpynx> right, I thought it may have been a natural pause in the drama, but clearly not.
00:02:35 <shachaf> Oh, that means oerjan can't read what we're saying.
00:02:43 <HackEso> Your omnidryad saddle principal ideal golfing toe-obsessed "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty eldrazi grinch is a punctual expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. His arkup-nemesis is mediawiki's default diff. He twice punned without noticing it.
00:06:59 <salpynx> I'm mainly interested is there was any more info on the cryptic Proto IE quote from Orin. Anything else that happened around that time is probably better lost
00:08:35 <fungot> salpynx: ' but he looks the spit and fnord' people makin' cracks about bananas.' they'll say: the least we can do for him?'
00:09:01 <shachaf> PIE is fine but dynamic linking is not so good.
00:12:20 <salpynx> PIE is overloaded (I had to look that one up).
00:12:39 <shachaf> pooch-independent executable
00:17:05 <orin> salpynx: *sokʷh₂yóteh₂ti *gʷíh₃womos : We live in a society in PIE
00:20:34 <salpynx> orin: nice, I got "we live". Couldn't find the roots of the first word, and was pretty sure my best guess of "Juice-thief" was incorrect (unless "society" = juice-sapping in PIE?)
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00:34:27 <salpynx> Found it: *sokʷ-yo- companion vs. *sokʷos juice/resin. I won't make that mistake again!
00:35:44 <A_> (I have nothing to say here, so I will quit now.)
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00:45:57 <oerjan> is something wrong with the logs?
00:46:37 <salpynx> oerjan: yes, they have not been updating since the long page move msg
00:53:49 * oerjan merges with tunes logs
00:55:39 <oerjan> curiously, tunes doesn't have the very last line in the other logs, i guess the bot logged it but crashed before actually saying it.
00:58:05 <oerjan> <shachaf> Oh, that means oerjan can't read what we're saying. <-- DON'T BET ON IT
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02:32:21 <adu> oerjan: tunes?
02:32:29 <adu> like the operating system?
02:42:11 <oerjan> adu: yes, although just because it's on the same site, see topic
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03:51:04 <A__> I have devised an idea of a sorting algorithm - I decided to call it "Got a match?", but there could be better names for this.
03:51:20 <A__> Here is a glance of the algorithm of that algorithm:
03:52:39 <A__> (in natural language) : While the modified state does not equal to the current state: \
03:53:16 <A__> Put the leftmost element in the unsorted list of elements after the rightmost matching number
03:53:34 <A__> Delete the leftmost unborted element
03:53:59 <A__> If the end of the list of elements is less than the beginning of that list:
03:54:13 <A__> Reverse-cat the whole list of elements
03:55:10 <A__> And that is it. This algorithm has certain limitations (i.e. it does not support sorting a list of elements where all elements are unique.)
03:55:43 <A__> I will put a working demonstration of this algorithm here:
03:56:26 <A__> Task: Sort 123123 -> 231123 -> 311223 -> 112233
03:56:51 <A__> The end of the list is larger than the beginning of the list, so the algorithm ends.
03:58:01 <A__> (This algorithm is inspired by the desire to not comparing elements of the list every time and to not waste too much space for that algorithm.)
03:58:37 <A__> You may be confused of the last part of the algorithm: why do we need to reverse-cat the list of elements sometimes?
03:58:53 <A__> Well, an example clears up the confusion:
04:00:03 <A__> (This example is complex; please don't mind) 32321321321 -> 23213213321 -> 32132133221 ->
04:00:53 <A__> 21321333221 -> 13213332221 -> 32133322211 -> 21333322211 ->
04:01:19 <A__> 13333222211 -> 33332222111
04:01:53 <A__> 13333222211 -> 33332222111 (And see, it is in reversed order. Then you would have to reverse cat that string in order to sort correctly.)
04:02:41 <A__> I am done; any questions? (And I apoligize for using up too much space for it.)
04:06:14 <A__> I have nothing to do here. fungot
04:06:14 <fungot> A__: " the deacon is far away. i am a stranger in a familiar script:
04:06:45 <A__> fungot: " the deacon is far away. i am a stranger in a familiar script:
04:06:46 <fungot> A__: " just as you go along to the study of time so wholeheartedly that, for the appropriate moment to descend, and thought about cigar smoke and flowing drink and fnord voices never ever gave cushy numbers to the likes of us any more... it chokes us to death with her own umbrella.
04:07:00 <A__> fungot: " just as you go along to the study of time so wholeheartedly that, for the appropriate moment to descend, and thought about cigar smoke and flowing drink and fnord voices never ever gave cushy numbers to the likes of us any more... it chokes us to death with her own umbrella.
04:07:00 <fungot> A__: " er. what's bodacious mean?" asked granny. " gytha meant well, i, fnord' the faces of many of the things that had been tossed aside on to the roof of the city's kings, all haughty stance and imperious haircut. in fact, since the pyramids took up so much, is...
04:07:15 <A__> fungot: " er. what's bodacious mean?" asked granny. " gytha meant well, i, fnord' the faces of many of the things that had been tossed aside on to the roof of the city's kings, all haughty stance and imperious haircut. in fact, since the pyramids took up so much, is...
04:07:15 <fungot> A__: ' intended to be a blob of swallow's vomit?' said
04:07:26 <A__> fungot: ' intended to be a blob of swallow's vomit?' said
04:07:44 <A__> Hey, fungot: ' intended to be a blob of swallow's vomit?' said
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04:08:58 <shachaf> You need to stop doing the thing where you paste the text other people write.
04:09:40 <A__> Did you see what I just wrote(presenting an algorithm)?
04:10:21 <shachaf> I saw it but I didn't read it.
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09:39:23 <int-e> @tell oerjan oh no, now things may be going horribly right in the long term
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09:41:10 <HackEso> 1/2:1178) <fungot> kmc: madam president, i have taken on serious proportions. \ 787) <itidus21> and all this time I thought we were talking about postmodern analysis of junk mail delivery methods and simulations of elephant breeding patterns \ 558) <fungot> Ngevd:. i'm so kind, even to assholes! anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov \ 498) <elliott_> now that we've cleared that u
09:41:15 <HackEso> 2/2:p let us hug fungot = <fungot> elliott_: let's not start that again." \ 608) <elliott> ais523: I pronounce "xor" by punching myself in the face and then "or"
09:41:38 <fungot> shachaf: ' he wath my only friend!' she snapped, " never mind about my son," said carrot doggedly, " i thought that's what we always used to say the verruca gnome.
09:41:50 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld* enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
09:42:00 <fungot> Selected style: speeches (misc. speeches from Project Gutenberg)
09:42:08 <fungot> shachaf: " a refutation of his whole argument? paley says, indeed, will appear beneath their dignity. the temerity of adventurers was much justified by the ill order of every state, which is always very near to it in display of gaiety, splendour, and which the disastrous events of the war against jacobinism, louis the fourteenth brittany had its states; burgundy had its states; and yet there is no such criterion, it must be raw
09:42:20 <HackEso> 1/2:1087) <boily> I prefer goat memory. I feel it's more reliable, like a vinyl over a CD. \ 331) [after a long string of Lymia getting lambdabot to spit out huge, meaningless type signatures] <Lymia> I need to learn more Haskell... <CakeProphet> ..I need to get op privs. \ 1222) <oren> when i was a kid it used to snow on christmas eve. what is this "freezing rain", "sleet" crap? <vanila> yeah seriously, who is evn in charge anymore? <oren> apparently
09:42:23 <HackEso> 2/2:not santa claus <zzo38> Santa Claus is dead by now. \ 695) <fungot> elliott_: how usable is borges in the real world \ 722) <olsner> is tswett Warrigal?
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09:52:30 <int-e> Oh does that mean that we have our own global warming theory... namely, Santa Claus died?
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09:52:49 <wob_jonas> that's not really the same language, is it?
09:54:51 <ais523> wob_jonas: are you talking about the obfuscated tiny C dialects?
09:55:15 <ais523> I haven't looked at it in detail, but if it's a different language (and not an obvious derivative of the original) it should be discussed on a different page
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10:01:58 <wob_jonas> they're two somewhat unrelated implementations
10:02:47 <wob_jonas> the older one is a bytecode interpreter that has some builtin functions; the newer one is bellard's compiler which "cheats" by linking symbols in from libc
10:03:24 <int-e> The older one calls itself OC = obfuscated C. Not sure where I stand on this.
10:05:12 <wob_jonas> also the older one uses the trick where the interpreter is written in C, but the compiler from C to the bytecode that that interpreter understands is written in the bytecode, though not in a cheating way, because both are contained in the size limit
10:05:47 * int-e idly wonders about the copyright status of that BNF, and the licensing situation of IOCCC (especially early years).
10:06:43 <wob_jonas> int-e: the licensing situation is quite clear: whoever submits the entry keeps all the rights
10:06:51 <int-e> wob_jonas: it's written in C but the bytecode optimizer and compressor required to make everything fit isn't included
10:11:40 <wob_jonas> I should probably make some kind of toy compiler, though not a tiny golfed one, at some point, just for the heck of learning
10:11:58 <wob_jonas> and potentially teaching, if I document it properly
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10:15:07 <wob_jonas> can you recommend a good text teaching how to make a register allocator for a compiler to a real-world ugly CISC architecture?
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10:47:45 <int-e> What's that, another C variant?
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15:59:18 <ais523> anyone have thoughts on this?: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Quadratic_sync_problem
15:59:58 <ais523> it's one of the simplest problems I've found that isn't obviously Turing-incomplete (another example of a simple problem that isn't obviously Turing-incomplete is "does this recurrence relation ever reach 0?", but I think that one's less likely to be, not that either are particularly likely to be)
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16:30:35 <int-e> ais523: relevant keyword: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pell%27s_equation
16:31:10 <ais523> hmm, that's not exactly the same, but it's pretty similar
16:32:31 <ais523> even something simple like the negative Pell equation doesn't have a known solution technique
16:37:50 <rain1> https://www.maths.ed.ac.uk/~v1ranick/papers/conwaysens.pdf
16:37:57 <rain1> can this be applied in any way? I dont know
16:46:33 <rain1> oh these are 2 single variable quadratic forms
16:46:40 <rain1> but that is f or binary quadratic form
16:47:44 <rain1> since the constants are non-negative I think you can bound x andy
16:47:48 <rain1> and then check finitely many values
16:48:10 <rain1> Pquadratic residuosity problem has no known efficient solutions
16:48:27 <rain1> wel it's efficient to know if a solution exists (using legendre symbol), but not to find it?
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17:36:19 <ais523> rain1: the symbol doesn't always tell you if a solution exists
17:36:55 <ais523> it can tell you that it doesn't exist, but the legendre symbol's only defined for prime modulus, and the jacoby symbol is only a necessary condition, not a sufficient condition
17:37:33 <rain1> oh shit i didn't know that
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18:32:50 <HackEso> olist 1165: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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19:23:01 <b_jonas> ais523: not a direct answer, but see https://cstheory.stackexchange.com/q/14124/8067 , especially the second paragraph of the question
19:25:18 <ais523> "The problem can be equivalently stated as follows: given b,c∈N, determine whether the quadratic x²+by−c=0 has a solution x,y∈N." …but isn't that literally quadratic residuosity?
19:26:24 <b_jonas> ais523: you asked for Turing-complete or at least possibly so, I don't think that gives any such problem
19:26:25 <ais523> ah no: x²+by-c=0 <=> x²=-by+c, quadratic residuosity is x²=by+c
19:26:45 <b_jonas> this question is about NP problems
19:26:47 <ais523> and given that b and y are both constrained to be be non-negative the sign flip actually makes a difference
19:27:00 <ais523> b_jonas: yes, but quadratic residuosity being NP-complete would be a major result
19:30:43 <ais523> or, hmm, /does/ the sign flip make a difference?
19:31:42 <b_jonas> I won't help you thinking about this now, that's just a question I had come across earlier today
19:32:19 <ais523> if it's lower then it's a reduction of the "find the root" part of quadratic residuosity to a decision problem, but a different reduction from the normal one
19:36:09 <ais523> if I'm not misunderstanding something, this seems like it might be major news for the crypto community (although possibly not; they care about average-case complexity, NP-completeness results normally focus on the worst case)
19:41:54 <rain1> is factoring expected to be NP-complete?
19:41:56 <rain1> i don't think it si
19:42:18 <rain1> which makes this quadratic thing being NP-complete strange, because square roots mod N is usually seen as equivalent in difficulty to factoring N
19:42:20 <ais523> it's expected to be NP-incomplete, although nobody actually knows what class it's in atm
19:42:55 <ais523> rain1: decision-problem quadratic residuosity can be solved in P-time via a factoring oracle, yes
19:43:21 <ais523> going the other way, a find-a-square-root algorithm can factor in P-time if you have a random number generator
19:43:40 <ais523> err, randomized P-time, there's always a chance your RNG doesn't cooperate
19:45:39 <rain1> https://blog.computationalcomplexity.org/2019/04/x-3-y-3-z-3-33-has-solution-in-z-and.html
19:45:45 <rain1> this is unrelated but fun
19:52:02 <rain1> https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/1396122/please-help-understand-how-ax2by-c-0-is-np-complete
19:52:12 <rain1> subset sum encoded into 2 variable quadratic diophantine
19:53:49 <ais523> the use of subset sum makes me think that the signs are significant
19:54:42 <rain1> > the NP-complete SUBSET-SUM problem can be considered as a LINEAR DIOPHANTNE EQUATION, when you restrict your solution over positive integers. If you allow also negative solutions then it is solvable in polynomial time
19:54:44 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:85: error: parse error on input ‘,’
19:59:25 <rain1> I think it's very likely that the problem you posted is NP-complete
19:59:37 <rain1> maybe it's a superset of another problem already shown NP-complete
19:59:58 <ais523> I think it's likely to be NP-hard but am not convinced it's solvable in NP
20:00:48 <ais523> it can express "sign-flipped quadratic residuosity", thus must by the discussion above be at least NP-hard
20:04:30 <rain1> I had no idea that such a simple diophantine equation was NP complete
20:04:41 <rain1> i read about the hilbert 10 stuff and they need lots of variables
20:06:15 <ais523> or, hmm, no, I'm not sure it /can/ express the sign flip
20:06:54 <ais523> because now one side is increasing and the other decreasing, which prevents the simple implementation method I was hoping for working
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22:55:32 <shachaf> @ask zzo38 Do you like GF2P8AFFINEQB?
22:56:23 <kmc> is that an x86 instruction
22:58:12 <shachaf> I just came across this post. Is it written by zzo38? https://www.realworldtech.com/forum/?threadid=150494&curpostid=169010
23:01:00 <int-e> it's a fused multiply and add, what's not to like ;-)
23:01:33 <shachaf> It's easy to like GF2P8AFFINEQB, but what about GF2P8AFFINEINVQB?
23:03:00 <int-e> Hmm I guess what's not to like is that b is an immediate.
23:05:14 <adu> WTFISTHATQM
23:06:36 <int-e> And for that other one, the hard-coded GF(2^8).
23:09:41 <adu> vbroadcastf128 [ds:esi+ecx*2+0x12345678]
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23:12:42 <shachaf> median a b c = atMost (max a b) . atLeast (min a b) $ c
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23:30:40 <moony> aka "let's make the decoder even more of a disaster"
23:32:25 <moony> but they extended the ISA a bit *too* much
23:33:35 <shachaf> I guess median of 5 is a sort of important function because you need it for the linear-time median algorithm.
23:33:50 <shachaf> But not actually important because that algorithm isn't actually useful?
23:34:06 <shachaf> Apparently you can do it with 6 comparisons.
23:35:00 <moony> i imagine that with the amount of transistors they put toward AVX512's sheer number of instructions, they probably could've, say, added more op-fusion possibilities instead
23:36:21 <moony> Moony's wishlist: add each individual lane of SIMD registers to the scoreboard as it's own register
23:38:35 <moony> because my reasoning is on the "how the hell would that be viable" end of things
23:42:45 <moony> Also, the fact that a particular AVX2 only CPU (You know which one) completely plastered the i9-9920X lately, i think AVX512 may have been a bad move on intel's part
23:45:17 <int-e> shachaf: wait what's the difference between atMost and min?
23:47:18 <shachaf> clamp lo hi = atLeast lo . atMost hi
23:48:03 <int-e> synonyms are confusing
23:48:21 <shachaf> I like the name atMost for min.
23:48:52 <int-e> they suggest that there's a difference
23:49:04 <int-e> to me at least, in programming
23:49:18 <shachaf> atMost (atLeast a b) . atLeast (atMost a b)
23:49:34 <shachaf> But so is min (max a b) . max (min a b)
23:49:45 <int-e> nah, that one is just fine.
23:49:57 <shachaf> I think it's confusing that if you want to bound something below, you write max.
23:50:04 <shachaf> I always have to think about which way to do it.
23:50:10 <int-e> ah but I'm used to that
23:50:12 <shachaf> Whereas with a name like atLeast it's obvious.
23:54:02 <int-e> what's confusing is that (a \/ b) /\ ((a /\ b) \/ c) should be symmetric in a, b, c.
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00:05:35 <int-e> (a \/ b) /\ ((a /\ b) \/ c) = (a \/ b) /\ ((a \/ c) /\ (b \/ c)) = (a \/ c) /\ ((a \/ b) /\ (c \/ b)) = (a \/ c) /\ ((a /\ c) \/ b) <-- not immediately obvious :)
00:06:54 <shachaf> Is there a way to write median such that it is obvious?
00:08:00 <int-e> hmm. almost. (a \/ b) /\ (a \/ c) /\ (b \/ c) is at least obviously symmetric.
00:08:21 <int-e> but it's still unclear that it's equal to its dual.
00:09:32 <shachaf> It also uses five comparisons in the obvious implementation, rather than three.
00:09:55 <shachaf> Well, the way I wrote it has four comparisons, but it does both min and max for a and b.
00:10:23 <int-e> sure it has more comparisons.
00:11:07 <int-e> and if you have it in that form the fact that you can use distributivity once is fairly obvious.
00:12:42 <shachaf> "the smaller of the three pairwise maxima" is pretty clear, at least.
00:13:14 <shachaf> What does it do in a poset?
00:13:46 <int-e> (a \/ b) /\ (a \/ c) /\ (b \/ c) = ((a /\ (a \/ c)) \/ (b /\ (a \/ c))) /\ (b \/ c) = (a \/ (b /\ (a \/ c))) /\ (b \/ c) = (a /\ (b \/ c)) \/ (b /\ (b \/ c) /\ (a \/ c)) = (a /\ (b \/ c)) \/ (b /\ (a \/ c)) = (a /\ b) \/ (a /\ c) \/ (b /\ a) \/ (b /\ c) = (a /\ b) \/ (a /\ c) \/ (b /\ c)
00:14:31 <int-e> if you just have a poset, you won't have /\ or \/...
00:15:01 <int-e> If you have a non-distributive lattice I think the duality breaks down.
00:15:23 <int-e> (I mean the equation I just derived.)
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00:27:37 <arseniiv> does somebody know how to mend the sleeping schedule?
00:28:35 <shachaf> go traveling to another time zone for a while hth
00:29:02 <kmc> try melatonin
00:29:28 <kmc> read the excessively long slatestarcodex post about it
00:29:54 <shachaf> thanks for narrowing down the set of slatestarcodex posts
00:30:08 <kmc> shachaf: did I tell you about my adventures with galantamine
00:30:32 <arseniiv> okay I think I’ll go then, it’s morning here
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00:30:42 <shachaf> i,i goofusamine and galantamine
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00:32:29 <shachaf> kmc: i saw a good video that had kittens in it on the internet
00:32:35 <shachaf> but unfortunately i lost it
00:32:40 <shachaf> so you're just going to have to imagine some kittens
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00:36:20 <int-e> shachaf: and it's actually trivial to produce an example of a lattice where that operation is not self-dual, namely the one with 3 incomparable elements, plus top and bottom elements.
00:37:01 <int-e> ("trivial" in the sense that starting with three incomparable elements is very natural for this property.)
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15:10:22 <orin> at most is the nsame thing as maximum, not minimum
15:12:00 <orin> oh I see... "x is at most y" is the same thing as "x = min(x,y);"
15:12:20 <orin> so it's like a 'min=' operator
15:14:17 <orin> I am not sure how that would work in a functional language tho
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19:47:12 <kmc> shachaf: you may be interested to know, that Ted Chiang is reading "Exhalation" on Thursday June 13 at 7:30 PM at Green Apple Books (my favorite bookstore) on 9th Ave in San Francisco
19:47:19 <kmc> or maybe second favorite... it doesn't have a cat unfortunately
19:48:57 <HackEso> Cats are cool, but should be illegal.
19:49:24 <int-e> Puns are fun, but should be illegal.
19:51:06 <shachaf> I should get a couple of cats and name them This and That.
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19:51:37 <kmc> and I like That
19:52:47 <shachaf> kmc: https://i.imgur.com/LOiSViu.gifv
19:53:29 <kmc> so was the cat climbing her while she tried to keep her cool?
19:54:58 <arseniiv> though my cat is completely impossible sometimes… to bear
20:01:31 <shachaf> http://www.scp-wiki.net/scp-1313
20:05:31 <int-e> that's the wrong kind of esoterics for me.
20:08:20 <arseniiv> shachaf: isn’t it tagged as joke? It seems too bad for a serious one
20:10:13 <arseniiv> some of them are definitely creepy, and joke ones, I think, are never creepy, and this one is a bear^W^W unbearable
20:29:42 <int-e> I guess the whole wiki is a work of fiction. I'm not in the right mood for that.
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20:47:00 <arseniiv> but there are things in which one immerses way better than this unbelievable page IMO
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21:04:23 <b_jonas> shachaf: So This is This and That is That: / and there's how you ad-dress a cat.
21:22:54 <arseniiv> . o O ( so This is That and That is This, and nothing will be what it seems )
21:25:39 <shachaf> I think it's also Eliot's.
21:29:11 <shachaf> What's the difference between that and a regular allusion?
21:29:41 <int-e> in this context, a regular allusion is not a cat.
21:32:06 <arseniiv> shachaf: if b_jonas cited the original, and you alluded to it earlier than that (via retcon, possilbly?), that may be called a reverse allusion, I think. If
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21:51:32 <b_jonas> you mean like I randomly quoted it, and then shachaf used his crystal ball earlier to foresee that and allude to it?
21:51:45 <b_jonas> yeah, that's not a bad hypothesis. it matches my personality at least.
22:02:54 <arseniiv> though it’s not why I came with “reverse allusion” name in the first place—I just thought it’s funny that situation is in some sense reversed compared to usual allusions somehow, it was a vague feeling, but latter came the rationalization
22:08:10 <b_jonas> ``` set -e; cd wisdom; print "%s/ " vi*
22:08:12 <HackEso> Error: no such file "%s/ " \ Error: no "print" mailcap rules found for type "text/plain" \ Error: no "print" mailcap rules found for type "text/plain" \ Error: no "print" mailcap rules found for type "text/plain" \ Error: no "print" mailcap rules found for type "text/plain" \ Error: no "print" mailcap rules found for type "text/plain"
22:08:18 <b_jonas> ``` set -e; cd wisdom; printf "%s/ " vi*
22:08:18 <HackEso> vi/ victoria/ vim/ violation/ virgil/
22:08:30 <b_jonas> virgil? is that one of mine?
22:08:34 <HackEso> Virgil is a prayer at dawn, as well as an ancient Italian poet who led Dante to hell so they can ask the blind transgendered seer Anchises stupid politics questions concerning contemporary noble families.
22:08:47 <HackEso> vi is in a relationship with emacs.
22:08:48 <HackEso> vim equals to cmxciv or cmxcvi, depending on which part of Roman Empire you are.
22:08:54 <HackEso> Queen Victoria is the most victorious queen the world has ever known, even having won at the not dying contest.
22:08:57 <HackEso> Violation is the act of playing an instrument in the viola family.
22:13:28 <int-e> right.. sex and violins.
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22:17:25 <arseniiv> b_jonas: what one was you looking for?
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22:19:44 <arseniiv> oh, didn’t hear about these before
22:22:23 <b_jonas> no wonder, because they don't have a wisdom entry
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22:46:32 <b_jonas> an improved Disfigure? nice
22:46:50 <b_jonas> (a card in the upcoming M:tG set, called Defile)
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01:03:22 <HackEso> Xylochoron: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
01:03:48 <fungot> shachaf: shortly after the war, the strength of the interests of your hearers, there to shine forever, while the world lasts, a warning to protect their own buildings ( which were without any fnord or fnord anything. will you let in a mussulman? will you hazard so desperate a step while there is any mistake about it," said clodius.
01:05:07 <Xylochoron> hey, i'm a regular on the esolangs Discord server. working on a thing to compile turing machines into cyclic tag these days....
01:05:13 <Xylochoron> i gather you guys are not big fans of discord.
01:06:20 * kmc definitely isn't
01:06:42 <Xylochoron> uhm, anyway, i know i'm just like, showing up in ur server all of a sudden, but, well, some of us discorders are like, not so happy about discord ourselves, and there's this open source thing like discord called Matrix,
01:06:49 <Xylochoron> so i'm 4 sure not asking you guys to join that or anything
01:07:13 <Xylochoron> i know someone asked about that for discord before and i heard u guys said no, but maybe matrix would be ok?
01:07:39 <shachaf> Don't people already use Matrix with IRC?
01:07:42 <Xylochoron> just though i'd ask, there's a lot of us who are curious to know what you guys are all talking about but are kinda stuck on some of the features of discord :-/ riot has pretty much the same features and is open source and stuff so,
01:07:54 <Xylochoron> ok sorry i'm actually just new to matrix today X-D
01:08:00 <shachaf> Looks like tswett[m] here is doing that.
01:08:05 <Xylochoron> so i might not be completely understanding how it works haha
01:08:31 <Xylochoron> i made my own esolang room there, but if there's a way to just connect with you guys more directly that'd be great to
01:08:35 <shachaf> Anyway I'm not the person to ask about these things but I usually don't like these bridges.
01:09:12 <tswett[m]> Xylochoron: There already is a bridge. I'm using it right now.
01:09:19 <Xylochoron> ok, i gotcha. let me actually just look into if there's a more direct way to
01:09:32 <shachaf> IRC has plenty of problems but at least it's relatively simple and a protocol you can make your own clients for.
01:10:25 <Xylochoron> simple isn't necesarily a huge benefit for me but like, i'm sure it is for others, to each their own i dunno?
01:10:36 <Xylochoron> how do i get on your side of the bridge tswett[m]
01:11:12 <tswett[m]> I think you just join #freenode_#esoteric:matrix.org.
01:11:21 <Xylochoron> would love to know what u guys have been talking about. have some good friends on discord too though i hope i can convince evryone to merge or something.......
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01:13:46 <shachaf> did you know that the Matrix standard specifies RESTful HTTP APIs for securely transmitting and replicating JSON data between Matrix-capable clients
01:14:05 <shachaf> are all things that describe themselves as RESTful bad
01:14:08 <tswett[m]> I also use Discord, by the way, so I'd be interested in knowing about the esolang Discord. :D
01:16:23 <Xylochoron> lol i guess i can tell you about the esolang discord, but really over there we've been talking about switching to matrix
01:16:39 <Xylochoron> so it'd be a little weird to have some people moving that way and others this way lol
01:17:32 <Xylochoron> sorry could you tell me that address to add on matrix again
01:18:54 <Xylochoron> sorry for being dumb but i'm actually having some trouble figuring out how to join from matrix
01:19:00 <Xylochoron> where do i plug in "#freenode_#esoteric:matrix.org" :-/
01:19:36 <Xylochoron> i'm trying to "create a new room" and typing that address into the search bar
01:19:53 <Xylochoron> nothing comes up, searching for esoteric doesn't come up with anything either
01:20:38 <Xylochoron> i'm using the desktop riot client thing,
01:20:42 <tswett[m]> Click on the join-a-room button, type in #freenode_#esoteric:matrix.org, and hit enter.
01:20:55 <tswett[m]> You won't see any search results, but that doesn't matter.
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01:21:55 <xylochoron[m]> ok right wow, all i had to do was hit "join" and not worry about it being in the search results duh
01:22:58 <xylochoron[m]> this should be cool, i'm always worried that on discord we're talking about stuff you guys have already figured out the answer to over here haha
01:23:54 <tswett[m]> Like how to write a loop in ///. :D
01:24:18 <tswett[m]> Holy cow, I invented /// half my life ago.
01:26:26 <xylochoron[m]> i'm so sad i didn't get into programming when i was younger than i did, but i hope i'm making up for it in time. i'm 35 and only really started coding around 22 or so D-:
01:26:40 <xylochoron[m]> i guess i messed around with calculator basic in middle school a little bit lol
01:26:44 <kmc> yeah you don't have to start early to be great at it
01:26:54 <xylochoron[m]> but its pretty cool to hear about people making that kind of stuff at like 13
01:27:21 <xylochoron[m]> i'm like, the oldest person by far on the discord server haha
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03:57:02 <esowiki> 03:27 User talk:Groowy (diff | hist) . . (+760) . . Ais523 (talk | contribs) (Creative Commons licenses make it legal to do certain things with the work, but there are restrictions; Esolang doesn't meet those restrictions, so you can't post Creative Commons work (other than the unrestricted CC0) here)
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04:24:46 <HackEso> A is one of seven villages in Norway. The BBC invented them by not understanding things on top of letters.
04:25:25 <HackEso> A is one of seven villages in Norway. The BBC invented them by not understanding things on top of letters.
04:25:43 <HackEso> Do you know adu? Adu adu adu adu adu!
04:26:06 <adu> what's happening
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04:27:19 <shachaf> a_ is pretending to be the esowiki bot now.
04:28:15 <HackEso> Å _is_ a village in Norway, unless you're the BBC and don't understand things on top of letters.
04:28:29 <HackEso> a:A is one of seven villages in Norway. The BBC invented them by not understanding things on top of letters. \ å:Å _is_ a village in Norway, unless you're the BBC and don't understand things on top of letters. \ cocoa:A is a village in Norway. The BBC invented it by not understanding things on top of letters.
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04:38:53 <HackEso> b_jonas egy nagyon titokzatos személy. Hollétéről egyelőre nem ismertek.
04:39:17 <shachaf> a_: You are being obnoxious and repeatedly engaging in behaviors that people have asked you to stop.
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04:57:14 <adu> shachaf: thanks
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05:04:08 <HackEso> Queen Shachaf of the Dawn sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends. He hates bell peppers with a passion. He doesn't know when to stop asking questions. We don't like this.
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05:09:07 <Zsdf> a_: You are being obnoxious and repeatedly engaging in behaviors that people have asked you to stop.
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05:14:46 <shachaf> what is the deal with this person's random harassment
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06:02:00 <ski> shachaf,int-e : hm, i've pondered that median thing, before
06:04:43 <ski> orin : "`x' is at most `y'" is written `x =< y'
06:05:08 <ski> the `(a \/ b) /\ (a \/ c) /\ (b \/ c) = ... = (a /\ b) \/ (a /\ c) \/ (b /\ c)' one
06:10:47 <ski> i was pondering "matching" on bags
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07:36:59 <b_jonas> tswett[m]: in that case look at the other string-rewriting esolanguages at http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:String-rewriting_paradigm
07:37:39 <b_jonas> tswett[m]: 13 years ago, that was around 2006, right? http://esolangs.org/wiki/Fuun_DNA is from 2007
07:38:24 <b_jonas> xylochoron[m]: basic of what calculator specifically? it's hard to guess because I don't know when you were in middle school
07:39:40 <b_jonas> nah, if you were that old, you wouldn't have had a calculator with basic in middle school
08:03:00 <b_jonas> wow, thunderstorm warning for today, sunday and monday
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11:53:02 <wob_jonas> oh nice, I hadn't seen this one before. website registration form, with javascript that checks whether the password you want to set satisfies their password complexity criterion. it lists each condition in a separate line, and checks immediately during typing the password, so when you type the first capital letter, it marks "At least 1 capitalized
11:53:55 <wob_jonas> and yeah, "Avoid using '," , & ,< , >,/ special character" because they apparently aren't sure they can write working javascript or sql placeholders or something
11:54:19 <wob_jonas> let me try to remove that javascript and register with a password that fails some of those criterions
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13:11:16 <int-e> ski: fun fact: (a \/ b) /\ (a \/ c) /\ (b \/ c) = (a /\ b) \/ (a /\ c) \/ (b /\ c) implies distributivity (assuming a lattice). Fairly difficult...
13:26:24 <myname> that sounds interesting
13:27:00 <int-e> I don't know why. I've just proved it ;-)
13:27:54 <int-e> the shape vaguely resembles distributivity in that it swaps inner and outer \/ and /\.
13:28:34 <int-e> But beyond that I have little intuition.
13:29:31 <myname> how did you prove that
13:42:30 <arseniiv> int-e: neat! And you don’t need bounds or negation, only lattice axioms?
13:43:33 <int-e> It's funny because my paper proof is incorrect... but I convinced Isabelle ;-)
13:46:45 <wob_jonas> int-e: did you give any hints to Isabelle, or did it just derive the result automatically?
13:47:07 <arseniiv> let’s see… if c ↦ b, that median thing implies (a ∨ b) ∧ b = (a ∧ b) ∨ b. Hm, that’s in axioms already, wrong turn
13:47:13 <int-e> I proved an intermediate lemma.
13:48:34 <int-e> but then I used sledgehammer so there's a proof step I don't understand at all :)
13:53:09 <int-e> arseniiv: I think you used distributivity in that thought.
13:53:58 <int-e> (assuming that c |-> b means c = c \/ b)
13:55:42 <int-e> oh, wrong way, that should be b \/ c = b.
13:56:43 <ski> (do you mean, assuming that `c =< b' ?)
13:57:33 <int-e> I would rather not involve the order at all at this point.
13:58:23 <ski> (i don't see what "if c ↦ b" or "assuming that c |-> b" even means)
13:59:00 <int-e> read it as an implication, then rewrite it as \supset ;-)
14:01:27 <arseniiv> int-e: why, I simply substituted b for c and used some associativity and idempotency
14:02:16 <int-e> I read something else, so I gave away a bit of a hint :)
14:02:42 <int-e> but in retrospect reading it as a substitution would've made perfect sense.
14:04:42 <xylochoron[m]> I had a TI-89 graphing calculator with basic on it. They were introduced in 1998, when I was in 7th grade.
14:05:13 <xylochoron[m]> Cost about the same as it does today too, yay for monopoly?
14:07:41 <wob_jonas> ha, you were in middle school when the TI-89 was already available. I don't think you're the oldest
14:08:59 <ski> ⌜↦⌝ is not an implication arrow, to me
14:10:28 <int-e> ski: I read something that I wanted to see.
14:10:56 <xylochoron[m]> ? I’m the oldest amonth those who’ve admitted their ages on the Discord server, which is most. I think the second oldest is like 23. If there’s older people here yeah that’s great
14:10:59 <ski> xylochoron[m] : fwiw, it's not IRC custom to prefix people's nicknames with sigils like `@', when messaging or referring to them. simply mention their nickname, e.g. at the beginning of the message, followed e.g. by a comma or a colon, and the message
14:12:16 <ski> (many IRC clients hilight a message / alert a user, if their nickname is mentioned, first thing in a message. i think not as many do that, in case the nickname is mentioned somewhere else in a message. though i think most also highlight/alert, on private message ?)
14:12:38 <ski> (oh .. and `@' already means something else on IRC (namely that the person in question is an operator on the channel))
14:12:53 <ski> xylochoron[m] : just fyi :)
14:13:50 <xylochoron[m]> Ok thanks :-D I am a little embarrassingly new to this so just let me know thanks :-D
14:13:53 <ski> (perhaps the other old people are ashamed to admit how old they are, on Discord ?)
14:14:45 <ski> (that was partly in jest)
14:17:24 <xylochoron[m]> https://discordapp.com/invite/say2ERQ?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app
14:18:01 <arseniiv> oh I can’t believe I’m within several years of 30. It feels so old :\
14:18:14 <xylochoron[m]> I was actually trying to convince some of those guys to switch to matrix with me but not sure how much success I’m having
14:18:24 <arseniiv> please tell me here are someone over 80
14:19:07 <ski> i've chatted with people on IRC who're at least 70, i think
14:19:23 <xylochoron[m]> Yeah can I please talk to an actual old person lol
14:19:25 <myname> at least some of them behave like it
14:19:26 <wob_jonas> I've chatted people in real life who're at least 70
14:19:59 <arseniiv> hm I’m chatted with my grandmother :o :o
14:20:16 <ski> perhaps you could chat to two people, whose combined age is at least seventy )
14:20:46 <wob_jonas> have my hon. and learned friend fungot chatted with people who're at least 70?
14:20:47 <fungot> wob_jonas: " had the reviewer's object, in whatever hands, whether high or low prices, whether he chooses to call one two, and eight grinders. its body is covered with an obscurity not to be begged. they must at length have a retreat from the malice of his adversary, by fnord cringing to the public peace. if our liberty has enfeebled the executive power, rendering government in all undertakings for the public necessities, and c
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14:21:31 <arseniiv> ski: hm, combined ages should indeed make things more bearable… I hope!
14:21:54 <xylochoron[m]> My grandparents once were talking about how when you’re 60, 50 is so young, when 70 60 is young, 80 70
14:22:19 <arseniiv> anyway did int-e say that there was a hint? should I presume b ≤ c and try to make something of that?..
14:22:37 <arseniiv> xylochoron[m]: makes sense, too, yeah
14:22:38 <ski> perhaps sum is not the appropriate arithmetical (geometrical ?) operation ?
14:24:03 <arseniiv> as we’ve seen, max is pretty boring, so maybe arithmetic-geometric mean or something
14:24:05 <ski> > logBase 2 (2 ** 30 + 2 ** 40)
14:24:34 <arseniiv> ski: hm I think base 2 is unnatural
14:24:35 <ski> too close to `max', i suppose
14:25:17 <ski> not that much difference
14:25:19 <ski> > logBase 1 (1 ** 30 + 1 ** 40)
14:26:37 <arseniiv> yesterday I learned P(Z) = Q ∪ {∞}, acted on with usual fractional-linear transformations
14:27:10 <ski> > [30 ** log 40,40 ** log 30] -- and this is greater than sum
14:27:13 <lambdabot> [281139.7457691163,281139.74576911645]
14:27:31 <ski> "fractional-linear" ?
14:27:52 <arseniiv> it should be that different because Z has so many non-unit elements
14:29:08 <arseniiv> ski: I mean, x ↦ (ax + b) / (cx + d) where a, b, c, d ∈ Z
14:30:57 <ski> hm, reminds be of Möbius transformations
14:31:23 <arseniiv> yeah, they are precisely these transformations of P(C)
14:31:35 <ski> i wonder whether that's related to "linear relations"
14:31:44 <ski> `P' being powerset ?
14:31:44 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: P': not found
14:32:07 <arseniiv> no, P just stands for projectivization
14:32:33 <arseniiv> though usually I’ve seen it come after something, like in RP^n
14:32:38 <ski> that was confusing me for a bit
14:34:04 * ski is reminded of musical intervals
14:37:43 <wob_jonas> wait, so the "[m]" is something that the bridge of this "matrix" chat appends?
14:38:14 <ski> presumably
14:38:19 <wob_jonas> that explains a lot, because earlier I've seen a different channel with a lot of users with that in the nick
14:38:32 <ski> though i think not all people connected via Matrix has that nickname suffix
14:41:12 <ski> btw `\(x,y) -> x ** logBase b y' is commutative
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14:43:34 <wob_jonas> ski: http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/diary/february_2019.html#february_16
14:43:57 <ski> Baez has a diary now ?
14:44:04 <myname> my favourite funfact in that regard was how gdc(fib(x), fib(y)) is supposedly fib(gdc(x, y))
14:44:29 <myname> i never proofed it, though
14:45:14 <ski> fwiw, i was mostly thinking of it, in the context of modular arithmetic (so `logBase b' is the "index", the discrete logarithm, wrt the primitive root `b')
14:48:44 <wob_jonas> but there's a more general statement that you could conjecture but that's false: namely that for any second order linear recurrence of the form s_0 = 0; s_1 = 1; s_{k+1} = A*s_{k-2}+B*s_{k-1}; you'd get gcd(s_x,s_y)=s_{gcd(x,y)}
14:48:52 <wob_jonas> and it's interesting to find a counterexample to that
14:49:30 <wob_jonas> myname: prove at first that if k divides n then fib(k) divides fib(n), then the converse of that
14:49:45 <wob_jonas> use the recurrence relation directly
14:50:05 <wob_jonas> and look at the sequence modulo fib(k)
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14:51:54 <wob_jonas> this is typical for such second order linear recurrences,
14:56:12 <wob_jonas> including the important case of s_k = 2**k - 1, which is what you get for A=-2, B=3
14:56:36 <wob_jonas> you might already know that if k divides n, then (2**k - 1) divides (2**n - 1)
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15:01:55 <wob_jonas> or maybe it's not true in that case?
15:02:18 <wob_jonas> I think the direction that if k divides n then (2**k - 1) divides (2**n - 1) is true,
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15:05:54 <wob_jonas> I think both are true for that sequence
15:12:07 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: for my part, I consider number theory an obscure discipline of magic
15:19:06 <int-e> yay, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributive_lattice#Characteristic_properties
15:19:36 <int-e> (Also my lemma is to show that the lattice is modular.)
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15:48:56 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: for my part, I consider lattices an obscure discipline of magic. I'm fine with some special cases of course.
15:49:11 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: but the statement I made isn't too deep in number theory of course
15:49:16 <wob_jonas> some parts of number theory are magic, sure
15:49:36 <wob_jonas> well, that applies to more or less any branch of mathematics
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15:50:27 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: mhm of course I’m not too deep in lattices, but I don’t consider them magic, it’s just something partially unknown to me, without strange feelings
15:52:08 <arseniiv> int-e: the second one there looks like it seems practical for some subtyping typechecking/inference algorithms
15:52:45 <int-e> In any case, I still don't have a complete paper proof for this. It's kind of annoying. :)
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16:22:20 <rain1> are these lattice formulas decidable?
16:24:38 <rain1> > The classical papers Ph. M. Whitman [1941] and [1942] solved the word problem
16:24:40 <rain1> for free lattices: Whitman gave an algorithm for determining if two lattice terms
16:24:41 <lambdabot> Data constructor not in scope: The :: t0 -> t1 -> t2 -> b0 -> cerror: Va...
16:24:42 <rain1> (polynomials) were equal in all lattices.
16:24:57 <rain1> this sounds like a Knuth-Bendix type thing, but for lattices?
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16:28:25 <int-e> Impossible to say without having a closer look.
16:29:24 <int-e> (Knuth&Bendix' approach can fail even for equationaly theories with a decidable word problem)
16:30:10 <int-e> And Wikipedia is wrong on this... sigh.
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16:33:12 <int-e> (It claims that Knuth-Bendix completion is a semi-decision procedure, but that's only true for ordered completion, aka unfailing completion, which came quite a bit later... due to Bachmair and Dershowitz I guess?)
16:35:56 <int-e> rain1: it's also worth noting that the decidable word problem has little bearing on the question whether a given equation implies another in the theory of lattices; adding the first equation changes the equational theory, after all.
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18:32:18 <b_jonas> xylochoron[m]: if you like the /// esolang, then among the other string-replacement languages https://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:String-rewriting_paradigm , you may want to check out https://esolangs.org/wiki/Fuun_DNA , which is another one where the only way to loop is to copy your source code
18:32:36 <b_jonas> only in that one, it's much easier to copy, because it can match more freely than just literals
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19:01:06 <xylochoron[m]> one thing i like about slashes is that it's TC with only two symbols, but ofc there's esolangs i like that have more than two symbols also :-P
19:03:41 <shachaf> one symbol is all you need hth
19:08:07 <b_jonas> there's another set of such languages, though they also make copying easy:
19:08:58 <b_jonas> https://esolangs.org/wiki/McCulloch%27s_second_machine counts as string-rewriting, right?
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20:31:45 <Soni> has anyone built a brainfuck interpreter that can execute /dev/urandom?
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20:46:35 <zzo38> Everything inside the outer brackets has to be saved until that loop is finished, and if you find ] before [ then it won't be valid (but you could use ] to separate the program from the input, perhaps)
20:46:42 <lambdabot> shachaf asked 1d 21h 51m 10s ago: Do you like GF2P8AFFINEQB?
20:46:49 <zzo38> shachaf: I don't know
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21:05:01 <ais523> Soni: I'm not sure; you'd have to make the execution start running the program as it read it
21:05:34 <ais523> that's basically what Easy interpreters do, but they read input and program from the same stream so it isn't the same language as brainfuck (that's why it has a different name)
21:05:53 <ais523> it'd be easy enough to adapt an Easy interpreter to read input and program from different files…
21:07:05 <shachaf> Are there any interesting quines that don't look like the classic quine?
21:07:25 <b_jonas> shachaf: what counts as looking like the classic quine?
21:07:29 <shachaf> I mean that they don't have two copies of almost the same string, one quoted and one not, or something, but use some other mechanism.
21:08:00 <b_jonas> shachaf: in some languages you can have just one copy of most of your code and recover it
21:08:15 <b_jonas> you know, like e = '... code here ...'; eval(e)
21:08:36 <shachaf> Well, using the language's mechanism for it (or reading the input file) seems a bit uninteresting.
21:08:45 <b_jonas> and then there are quines where there are two copies, but the data one is encoded so much that it doesn't look anything like the code
21:08:52 <b_jonas> not just a few backspaces, but completely encrypted
21:09:11 <b_jonas> and of course the code and data can intermix
21:09:55 <shachaf> I suspect the answer to my question is no, this is more or less the only way quines can work.
21:10:17 <b_jonas> and there's all sorts of strange language-dependent stuff like error quines
21:10:49 <ais523> shachaf: there are two common classes of non-degenerate quines which don't have a large repeated section: eval quines and topological quines
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21:11:59 <shachaf> What are topological quines?
21:12:23 <ais523> shachaf: they're quines in languages like Befunge which make use of parts of the language world which wrap around
21:12:33 <ais523> so that the "repeated section" only actually appears once in the program
21:13:05 <b_jonas> ais523: oh, so like the seek DATA,0,0 quines in perl?
21:13:13 <b_jonas> which read their own source code
21:13:19 <b_jonas> or do those count as eval quines?
21:13:32 <ais523> that's either a topological quine or just plain cheating, depending on your point of view
21:14:11 <ais523> toplogical quines in Befunge normally start with an unmatched "
21:14:22 <b_jonas> yeah, there are plain cheating ones, such as ones that access a copy of the source code that's outside the source code, such as downloading them from the internet, or reading it from a different file
21:14:32 <ais523> which puts the whole program inside the string (because the playfield wraps around, so the " matches itself), but it's /also/ outside the string so it runs after the entire thing has been placed into a string literal
21:16:03 <ais523> there may be other quine patterns too, but classic/topological/eval are the three main categories I'm aware of
21:16:34 <ais523> there's also double-literal quines but those probably count as cheating, they abuse a bug in codegolf.stackexchange's definition of a quine
21:16:52 <b_jonas> what does double-literal quines mean?
21:17:05 <ais523> they ban literal-only quines, but in languages where programs run right to left and literals just echo themselves, you can write the same literal twice
21:17:24 <ais523> then each of the literals prints the other, rather than each literal printing itself, so it doesn't count as literal-only
21:17:38 <ais523> btw, a literal-only quine is this sort of thing:
21:19:03 <b_jonas> so classic means the quine has some data and some code that prints the data twice, and one of the time it prints it it matches the data, right? and it counts even if the code and data are intermixed, or if the data is encoded in some unrecognizable way?
21:19:59 <b_jonas> what makes it classic is that the code and data parts are mostly disjoint?
21:20:03 <ais523> a classic quine is a program as code, + an encoding of that code as data
21:20:30 <ais523> the encoding might be weird or whatever but it's still just a separate part of the program
21:20:37 <ais523> then from that encoding, you generate both the code and the encoding itself
21:21:33 <ais523> incidentally, I tried to come up with a precise definition of a classic quine, but oerjan came up with a silly counterexample where you have /two/ identical data sections, each of which is used to generate the other (so that data is never used to regenerate itself)
21:22:21 <b_jonas> most of my quines are classic quines then, though I have some eval quines and even cheating quines
21:24:10 <b_jonas> `perl -e print unpack a35X35a34xaXXaaXaXXa,"print unpack a35X35a34xaXXaaXaXXa,\"\\"
21:24:11 <HackEso> print unpack a35X35a34xaXXaaXaXXa,"print unpack a35X35a34xaXXaaXaXXa,\"\\"
21:24:55 <b_jonas> `perl -eprint unpack a43X43a42xaXXaaXaXXa,"`perl -eprint unpack a43X43a42xaXXaaXaXXa,\"\\"
21:24:55 <HackEso> `perl -eprint unpack a43X43a42xaXXaaXaXXa,"`perl -eprint unpack a43X43a42xaXXaaXaXXa,\"\\"
21:26:28 <b_jonas> `perl -eprint+("`perl -eprint+(","\"",",","\\",")[g1012131121212133121414=~/./g]")[g1012131121212133121414=~/./g]
21:26:28 <HackEso> `perl -eprint+("`perl -eprint+(","\"",",","\\",")[g1012131121212133121414=~/./g]")[g1012131121212133121414=~/./g]
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22:04:45 <shachaf> b_jonas: I just made up the term "classic quine", I don't know what it's called.
22:05:05 <shachaf> I mean a quine which is generated by Lawvere's theorem or something.
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22:05:21 <b_jonas> shachaf: well, ais523 also used "classic", so that sounds good
22:08:16 <shachaf> There isn't even a Wikipedia page for Lawvere's theorem.
22:14:00 <shachaf> The Y combinator is also arguably a quine.
22:14:14 <shachaf> At least it's a special case of diagonalization.
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22:16:36 <ais523> because it doesn't print its own source code, but its own /output/
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22:21:08 <shachaf> Lawvere's theorem is: In a CCC, if there's a surjective phi : A -> B^A, then every arrow f : B -> B has a fixed point
22:22:00 <ais523> shachaf: what's the quantifier on A, \exists or \forall?
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22:24:12 <shachaf> I guess I shouldn't say surjective in a CCC.
22:25:13 <ais523> I find CCCs really unintuitive because there are two different vaguely function-like things (categorical arrows, and exponentials)
22:25:42 <ais523> and I find it hard to keep them apart in my head
22:25:43 <shachaf> But you have an evaluation map.
22:26:04 <shachaf> I think the idea is that they're similar enough that you don't need to.
22:27:33 <ais523> oh, there are functors as well, those are also vaguely function-like
22:27:57 <shachaf> And natural transformations!
22:28:13 <ais523> I'm one of the few people who always specifies everything involved in a natural transformation, rather than eliding
22:28:28 <ais523> because a) people get really sloppy when discussing them, and b) I find myself hopelessly confused without doing that
22:28:35 <shachaf> Do you like whiskering notation for natural transformations?
22:28:49 <shachaf> I used to think it was a bad shorthand but after a while I decided it was brilliant.
22:29:13 <ais523> page 49 of my thesis shows the notation that I use
22:29:18 <ais523> I don't know what the whiskering notation is
22:29:21 <shachaf> Whiskering is composing natural transformations and functors, as in Fε or εF
22:30:07 <shachaf> Which means respectively: (Fε)_x = F(ε_x) and (εF)_x = ε_{Fx}
22:30:28 <ais523> that makes sense for /natural/ transformations, doesn't it?
22:30:45 <ais523> it's much the same thing as omitting parens when you have a string of associative operatoins
22:31:25 <HackEso> smlist 501: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale
22:31:26 <shachaf> I agree that it makes sense.
22:31:39 <ais523> it seems like a disaster on unnatural transformations, but people don't study those much
22:31:46 <shachaf> I'm looking for your thesis now to find page 49.
22:31:57 <shachaf> What are the things people normally elide?
22:32:15 <ais523> the functors, normally
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22:32:36 <shachaf> Do you like the definition of a natural transformation as a functor : CxI -> D?
22:32:46 <ais523> also the source category, but I can forgive eliding that
22:32:49 <shachaf> Where I the the category with two objects and three arrows, one between the two objects.
22:33:06 <ais523> that definition seems horrible :-D
22:33:11 <ais523> that doens't necessarily mean I don't like it
22:33:24 <shachaf> Do you like the one-sorted definition of a category?
22:33:28 <Cale> It's nice from the perspective that it looks a whole lot like the traditional definition of a homotopy
22:33:44 <shachaf> That's where you only define the arrows, and leave the objects implicit.
22:33:54 <shachaf> You can also define one-sorted functors and one-sorted natural transformations.
22:34:05 <ais523> presumably an object is somehow identified with its identity arrow?
22:34:41 <Cale> I think the objects are good for the sake of understanding
22:34:46 <shachaf> In this definition, a natural transformation : F -> G : C -> D gives an arrow in D for every arrow in C.
22:34:52 <shachaf> Rather than merely for objects in C.
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22:35:18 <shachaf> The identity arrows correpond to the usual components of a natural transformation. The non-identity arrows correspond to diagonals of the naturality square.
22:37:02 <shachaf> Anyway, Lawvere's theorem says that the fixed point of f is, in pseudo-lambda calculus notation: (\x. f(phi(x)(x))) (\x. f(phi(x)(x)))
22:38:11 <shachaf> But you get Cantor's theorem and other diagonalization arguments from this as well.
22:39:04 <shachaf> phi is the isomorphism between B and B^B that you use to talk about the untyped lambda calculus as a CCC.
22:39:36 <shachaf> (You can also define it in Haskell, newtype Rec a = Rec (Rec a -> a), which lets you define Y.)
22:50:48 <shachaf> ais523: I see your notation now. It's very explicit.
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23:24:25 <zzo38> Do you like my variation of Along and Across? Now there is output (a single number), and you can use numbers as inputs of the along program rather than bits.
23:26:57 <ais523> zzo38: well, Along and Across was designed for a very specific purpose (to attempt to work out if a specific definition of Turing-completeness was reasonable), your version doesn't achieve the same goals I had but might achiieve different goals
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23:28:05 <ais523> that said, the difference in the along program inputs might not be relevant, although it isn't obvious
23:28:43 <zzo38> It depends what along language is in use
23:29:06 <zzo38> Also, I should think the output doesn't change the Turing-completeness.
23:31:37 <ais523> yes, the output is irrelevant for TCness
23:35:56 <Soni> can you make a program that just does whatever it wants
23:36:15 <ais523> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Baby_Language ?
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23:38:01 <shachaf> zzo38: Did you write https://www.realworldtech.com/forum/?threadid=150494&curpostid=169010 ?
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23:55:25 <zzo38> shachaf: I think so.
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23:57:23 <Soni> ais523: not really. more like, glue random things together and see what happens
23:58:14 <Soni> if we ever figure out how life started, that'll probably help us figure out how to bring it to computers
23:58:35 <Soni> but we have no idea how life works
23:58:49 <Soni> we can simulate all the chemistry and physics involved and it's all very expensive
23:59:03 <Soni> but understanding how it actually works is something else entirely