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01:32:31 <tswett[m]> Arguably, *every* program "just does whatever it wants".
01:32:48 <tswett[m]> It just so happens that "whatever it wants" is determined by a relatively simple set of rules.
01:33:22 <shachaf> i keep thinking the z in zzo38 stands for zermelo
01:34:06 <zzo38> There are two "z"s and the letters and numbers do not stand for anything.
01:35:18 <tswett[m]> So I just learned about "Unary Except Every Zero Is Replaced with the Title of This Programming Language or, Alternately, Is Replaced with the Smallest Counter-Example to the Goldbach Conjecture. Compilers and Interpreters Only Have to Implement the Former Option".
01:35:30 <tswett[m]> (I hope that message didn't send with wonky formatting, because I saw wonky formatting on my end.)
01:35:46 <zzo38> tswett[m]: I think the bold is not properly terminated
01:36:21 <tswett[m]> So I just learned about "Unary Except Every Zero Is Replaced with the Title of This Programming Language or, Alternately, Is Replaced with the Smallest Counter-Example to the Goldbach Conjecture. Compilers and Interpreters Only Have to Implement the Former Option".
01:37:19 <tswett[m]> It's actually pretty straightforward to implement the Goldbach option, right?
01:37:41 <tswett[m]> There's a simple algorithm for determining whether or not a given number is the smallest counterexample to the Goldbach conjecture.
01:37:49 <ais523> yes, just time-consumiing
01:37:58 <zzo38> (If the Goldbach Conjecture is valid, then presumably the one that implements only the former option is complete anyways.)
01:38:02 <tswett[m]> Namely: check whether or not it's a counterexample, and also check whether or not any smaller number is a counterexample.
01:38:18 <zzo38> And, yes, I agree I think you are correct about determining if it is the smallest counterexample
01:38:19 <ais523> there's a bit of additional complexity because even if you can tell that the program is made entirely out of repeats of a number, it might be ambiguous what that number is
01:38:38 <ais523> e.g. is 333333 six repeats of 3, three repeats of 33, two repeats of 333, or one repeat of 333333?
01:38:50 <shachaf> What's the encoding of the counterexample?
01:39:04 <shachaf> Looking at the reference implementation, there's nothing delineating the title from the rest of the text.
01:39:08 <zzo38> Yes, unless it needs to be delimited somehow
01:39:09 <ais523> the title doesn't say, but big-endian decimal encoded as ASCII is a reasonable guess
01:39:26 <shachaf> Maybe it's in unary, encoded with zeros.
01:39:36 <shachaf> Or even in unary, encoded with the title of the programming language.
01:39:43 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, that is what I thought too
01:40:05 <ais523> shachaf: that would be ambiguous
01:40:16 <shachaf> Non-title text is a comment in the reference implementation.
01:40:34 <shachaf> So 333333 could also be 33333 followed by a 3, if 33333 was the smallest counterexample.
01:41:08 <xylochoron[m]> hi schachaf. wondering, earlier were you saying only one symbol is needed in the slashes esolang, or, one symbol is all that is needed generally for Turing completeness in some given system,
01:41:31 <ais523> perhaps we have to find the largest number in the program and search for Goldbach counterexamples up to that number?
01:41:31 <shachaf> please address me by my full and proper name, schachachf
01:41:35 <tswett[m]> shachaf: Ooh, good point. That makes it trickier.
01:41:58 <tswett[m]> Well, in order to do anything Turing-complete-y in ///, you need / and \, and you don't need anything else.
01:42:26 <shachaf> I don't know how slashes works, so I probably wasn't commenting on it.
01:42:51 <HackEso> [U+002F SOLIDUS] [U+2044 FRACTION SLASH] [U+2215 DIVISION SLASH]
01:43:17 <HackEso> [U+29F8 BIG SOLIDUS] [U+1F67C VERY HEAVY SOLIDUS]
01:43:22 <zzo38> Another variant for Unary would be that the data doesn't matter only the file size is important. And then, you can use sparse files and don't waste disk space.
01:43:31 <xylochoron[m]> yeah there's unary programming languages but the binary ones while still being turing tarpits sometimes, seem to work just a liiitle more efficiently still
01:43:33 <shachaf> it is with a very heavy solidus that i write to inform you that unicode has too many code points
01:43:38 <zzo38> (If you are using a file system that supports sparse files.)
01:43:56 <ais523> zzo38: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Lenguage
01:44:09 <shachaf> > ransomNote "very heavy solidus"
01:44:15 <ais523> although oddly, the Lenguage interpreter does in fact attempt to read the whole file into memory even though it doesn't care about the length
01:44:26 <ais523> *even though it only cares about the length
01:44:36 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, and the way they are put together is also messy
01:44:36 <shachaf> > ransomNote "if you want to see your code points again..."
01:44:39 <lambdabot> 𝕚𝗳 𝓨𝓞𝒖 Ⓦ𝐚𝕹𝑡 𝑇𝙊 𝐬𝓮🅴 𝙔𝓞𝐔𝗥 𝙘𝙊𝘋𝕰 Ⓟ𝔬𝕚𝑵𝗍𝘴 🄰𝕲𝗮ℑ🄽...
01:45:18 <lambdabot> "la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la ...
01:46:05 <shachaf> > ransomNote (take 200 (cycle "again and "))
01:46:08 <lambdabot> 🅰⒢Ⓐ𝖎𝑵 𝖺𝐧⒟ 🅰𝓰𝖠i𝘯 🅐𝓝Ⓓ 𝓐g𝙖𝘐ｎ 𝔞𝐧D 𝘢𝒈𝖠𝖎𝑛 𝚊𝓝𝖉 𝓐𝐺𝘼𝚒𝑁 𝐴⒩𝔡 𝘈𝓖𝖆𝔦𝙣 𝑎𝗻𝔡 𝘢𝙂
01:46:09 <tswett[m]> > ransomNote . take 1000 . cycle $ "again and "
01:46:12 <lambdabot> 🅐𝐺𝘈Ｉ🄽 𝗮𝓝𝘿 𝕬🄶𝙖Ｉ𝒏 ａ𝚗Ｄ 𝒂𝔤𝖠𝕚𝑛 𝚊𝗻𝑫 𝓐𝙂🅰𝗶𝔑 𝙖𝘯d 𝗮𝙂𝐚𝙄𝖓 𝓪🅝𝘥 𝕬𝓖𝔞𝒊𝐧 𝑨𝖭𝕕
01:46:27 <tswett[m]> As y'all can see, I haven't matured any in the past 13 years. :D
01:47:02 <xylochoron[m]> with my 2TB hard drive, i can hold a whopping 3 byte unary program for free, nice
01:47:37 <shachaf> There are probably file systems that support larger files than will fit on the disk with some copy-on-write trickery.
01:47:51 <zzo38> xylochoron[m]: You will still need a directory entry though, isn't it?
01:47:53 <shachaf> They might still be limited to 2^64 or 2^128 bytes.
01:49:38 <zzo38> (Although three bytes long isn't a valid Unary program anyways, I think; it needs to be at least eight, isn't it?)
01:49:53 <tswett[m]> So I'm trying to do "bottomless category theory".
01:50:00 <tswett[m]> I'm doing category theory without admitting any foundational axioms.
01:50:41 <zzo38> Don't you need the definition of a category at least?
01:51:08 <tswett[m]> "Every set has a power set"? Nah. "Given two sets, there exists a set containing both of them"? Nope. "There exists at least one set"? Hell no.
01:51:28 <tswett[m]> Yes, you do. And I did, in fact, write down the definition of a category.
01:51:52 <tswett[m]> But I'm simply treating the definition of a category as a string of symbols in a particular language, rather than assuming that it actually defines anything.
01:51:58 <shachaf> What do sets have to do with categories?
01:52:32 <tswett[m]> My understanding is that some category theorists consider a foundational set theory to be useful.
01:52:53 <shachaf> But most interesting categories aren't small anyway.
01:53:21 <shachaf> If people are being formal don't they usually define categories as a first-order theory?
01:53:32 <xylochoron[m]> isnt all coding and proofs "strings containing symbols of a particular language" in the end or smthng
01:53:42 <lambdabot> SaulGorn says: A formalist is one who cannot understand a theory unless it is meaningless.
01:54:27 <zzo38> Even if it isn't small, it must be small enough to fit in whatever it is fitting in
01:54:34 <tswett[m]> xylochoron: Yup, absolutely. The "conventional" way to do formal mathematics is to take a collection of axioms and discover proofs which follow from those axioms.
01:54:58 <tswett[m]> If you want to be precise, I'm studying... what are they called.
01:55:11 <tswett[m]> Presentations of categories with finite limits.
01:55:33 <zzo38> How can do you do with the definition of a category if it does not define anything?
01:55:40 <xylochoron[m]> oh i just realized that's a quote bot who said that
01:55:55 <xylochoron[m]> probably this Saul Gorn guy has tried to define meaning or something :-P
01:56:13 <tswett[m]> zzo38: Well, I guess I'm planning to figure that out as I go along. :D
01:58:28 <xylochoron[m]> do you other people know enough about category theory to follow what this person's trying to do cuz i don't but it sounds interesting oh well
01:59:22 <shachaf> I think this person[m] is just doing things the regular way or something.
01:59:59 <shachaf> Sounds like some kind of first-order theory.
02:13:06 <tswett[m]> I oughta finish writing up Al dente.
02:24:14 <tswett[m]> Apparently I capitalized it. Al Dente.
02:24:24 <tswett[m]> Also I see that somebody's written some more Al Dente code. That's cool. :D
02:24:24 <tswett[m]> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Al_Dente_examples
02:24:34 <tswett[m]> I'm trying to figure out how their "copier" class works.
02:29:36 <tswett[m]> Let's see. Every Copier has another Copier as a tail, thus producing an infinite chain of Copiers. A Copier has a "copy" event. It also has two Numbers, "in" and "out". The numbers of the tail have to be the tails of the numbers.
02:29:58 <tswett[m]> If "copy" is false, then it must also be false in the entire chain of copiers, but there are no other constraints.
02:31:39 <tswett[m]> But if "copy" is true, then "in" and "out" must be the same number.
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02:37:55 <tswett[m]> You know how in most programming languages, you write code that causes stuff to happen?
02:38:10 <tswett[m]> I love how in Al Dente, you can't do that; you can only write code that *prevents* stuff from happening.
02:41:16 <tswett[m]> ...I just noticed that an implementation of Al Dente is not required to do anything.
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03:10:14 <zzo38> An optional extension could be a "main" command, that for example you could write "main Add(in1 in2 -> out);"
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04:24:09 <zzo38> Some keyword abilities in Magic: the Gathering they only use on some types of cards, and sometimes only in some circumstances. But I think there is other uses for them too. Such as, you could add retrace on any castable card, lifelink or infect on any card that can deal damage, graft and modular and persist and undying on any permanent card (even a Aura), dash on noncreatures, etc
04:27:25 <shachaf> Huh, I thought there was an instant or sorcery with lifelink, but I guess not.
04:27:38 <zzo38> I don't know; I haven't checked
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04:29:24 <shachaf> zzo38: Why do you say SIMD is not needed on MMIX?
04:29:26 <zzo38> I have a paper I made up some cards that have only keyword abilities, some of which are creatures and some aren't. One noncreature artifact has "graft 1", "undying", and "echo {0}".
04:29:41 <zzo38> shachaf: I do not remember.
04:29:59 <zzo38> (I think I wrote that message, but I am not sure. I also do not remember.)
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04:46:25 <zzo38> Another extension for Al Dente could be comments and macros (supporting parameterized classes, traits, and others); it can be compiled into the version without comments and macros.
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05:44:41 <zzo38> Another thing about Magic: the Gathering I thought about overload ability. I would prefer to use a different way based on the AST rather than the words. For example, [:damage 3; :to [:target :damageable]] would be written in English as "~ deals 3 damage to any target", but "any each" is wrong, but overload should still work. Also considering for example "change the target of target spell".
05:45:29 <zzo38> (I didn't mention ":from :this" but it is implied, presumably.)
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07:07:02 <Sgeo_> Hmm, "any target" is a pretty new phrasing, I wonder if the rules people actually encountered that issue
07:08:24 <Sgeo_> I guess "~ deals three damage to target player, planeswalker, or creature" works?
07:11:07 <Sgeo_> "any target" includes yourself, and until Modern Horizons they've avoided overloads with downsides
07:21:06 <zzo38> Yes, although I don't really like "any target" (for a few reasons), so I invented "damageable"; "any target" is the same as "target damageable" (although you can also use "damageable" in other contexts too).
07:22:38 <zzo38> (And even without "any target", there is the other issue I mentioned.)
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09:14:51 <int-e> So I finally have a paper proof, with some help by a computer: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/sdd.pdf It really doesn't look all that hard now.
09:15:10 <int-e> (this is for the self-dual characterization of a distributive lattice)
09:17:03 <shachaf> Not speaking of which, I have no feel for what exponentials mean in a lattice.
09:17:13 <shachaf> I'm pretty sure I should know. Is the answer obvious?
09:18:36 <shachaf> I mean in the category sense.
09:18:55 <int-e> ah. <-- stops caring
09:19:14 <shachaf> OK, I'll stop calling it exponential because it has a different name in order theory.
09:19:27 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_Heyting_algebra calls it "implication".
09:20:38 <shachaf> Or maybe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heyting_algebra
09:20:54 <shachaf> "equipped with a binary operation a → b of implication such that c ∧ a ≤ b is equivalent to c ≤ a → b"
09:23:37 <int-e> that infinite distributive law is something that I can get behind
09:25:45 <shachaf> I'm more used to frames, which are like complete Heyting algebras except frame homomorphisms don't preserve implication.
09:26:04 <int-e> myname: see the above link (in answer to your "why" question yesterday)
09:26:28 <int-e> myname: (my link, not shachaf's)
09:31:29 <shachaf> Hm, every modular lattice is distributive, and every distributive lattice is modular?
09:31:31 <int-e> Scott continuity is something I should understand (and at least I can see that unfolding the definition gets me that infinite distributive law from the finite one, modulo some twiddling to obtain a minimal directed set from S)
09:31:53 <int-e> no, moldularity is weaker than distributivity
09:31:55 <shachaf> Distributivity is stronger.
09:32:33 <shachaf> That's only optimism if you assume that the lattice is your friend rather than your enemy.
09:32:56 <int-e> . o O ( when you have modularity (huh, I had that extra 'l' again in there... but this time I noticed), the distributivity glass is still half empty. )
09:33:22 <int-e> Hmm. Is a half-empty glass of poison better than a half-full one?
09:33:40 <int-e> (It may depend on who drank that half...)
09:34:02 <shachaf> Man, the free complete lattice on three elements is too large to be a set.
09:34:51 <int-e> completeness is just too strong unless things collapse (as they do for real numbers)... I was surprised at first, but I think that fact is fairly intuitive after all.
09:35:51 <shachaf> I guess I'll stick to free complete semilattices, which by coincidence are also complete lattices.
09:36:16 <int-e> I mean "intuitive" in a weak sense. It "makes sense", but I can fit a whole proof into my head.
09:37:16 <int-e> Because that would entail actually proving the lack of collapse I alluded to.
09:37:25 <shachaf> So this duality property of yours doesn't hold for every distributive lattice, right?
09:38:04 <int-e> Hmm? That (1) holds in any distributive lattice as I showed on here the other day.
09:38:10 <int-e> (two days ago now, I believe)
09:38:36 <shachaf> Oh, right, and that one is actually very simple.
09:38:45 <shachaf> So I'm just saying all sorts of silly things today.
09:38:52 <int-e> But I struggled a lot with the converse.
09:39:22 <int-e> And in the end I reconstructed a computer's proof, simplifying it along the way.
09:41:55 <int-e> I *believe* that somebody who has a bit of experience with / intuition for modular lattices would recognize the fact that x \/ ((y \/ z) /\ (x \/ y) /\ (x \/ z)) has the x-s all in the right places for applying modularity and simplifying it down to (x \/ y) /\ (x \/ z). But I've never studied modular lattices.
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09:43:51 <shachaf> You can run any sorting network in a lattice instead of total order, right? Do you get anything interesting?
09:44:42 <int-e> hmm, let me ponder that for 10 minutes
09:49:49 <int-e> First of all, there's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birkhoff%27s_representation_theorem so you get something well-defined for distributive lattices (and a nice justification of the 0-1 principle for sorting networks: a sorting network is correct if it sorts all possible input sequences consisting only of 0s and 1s correctly). So what I would like to do is to see that distributivity follows from...
09:49:55 <int-e> ...(1 2) (2 3) (1 2) and (2 3) (1 2) (2 3) giving the same results.
09:54:08 <int-e> that may be false though...
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09:57:21 <int-e> In fact this property may be something between lattices and modular lattices. (The property in question is (x /\ y) \/ (z /\ (x \/ y)) = (x \/ y) /\ (z \/ (x /\ y)))
09:58:32 <int-e> Of course there are bigger sorting networks to consider as well.
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10:02:13 <int-e> wait a second, I messed this up; I should swap x and z on the right.
10:03:41 <int-e> And then distributivity follows (don't ask me how, the computer says so). Yay.
10:05:29 <shachaf> Dsitributivity follows from those two networks being equal?
10:07:11 <int-e> Ah I was too fast there, once again...
10:07:53 <int-e> I had snuck a modularity axiom in there.
10:08:52 <int-e> So... in a *modular* lattice, equivalence of those two sorting networks implies distributivity. But it looks like the same isn't true for non-modular lattices (no proof, just lack of a proof that's easy for the computer.)
10:11:23 <int-e> Oh. No, it was all true anyway.
10:12:44 <shachaf> I'm suspecting that it's true because the middle term ends up computing the median the two different ways that you were proving things about, more or less.
10:13:08 <shachaf> I mean the middle element of the list.
10:14:17 <int-e> yeah, that was my intuition. but it's only "more or less" since the sides differ from the self-dual one by an application distributivity each.
10:14:31 <int-e> *of distributivity
10:14:37 <shachaf> So the first network gives you (a∧b) ∨ ((a∨b)∧c)
10:14:48 <shachaf> And the second network gives you (b∨c) ∧ ((b∧c)∨a)
10:15:09 <shachaf> ...Which is what you just said.
10:18:02 <shachaf> I wonder whether there's a fancy sorting network variant that'll give you [a∧b∧c, ???, ab∨c]
10:18:16 <shachaf> I mean [a∧b∧c, ???, a∨b∨c]
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10:19:39 <shachaf> The benefit is that the depth for the first and last elements is only 2 so you get it one step earlier.
10:20:01 <shachaf> But I think you have to do more comparisons overall.
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10:20:52 <int-e> http://paste.debian.net/1085364/ is what I did and why I don't know how the proof goes.
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10:21:49 <int-e> shachaf: well (x /\ y) /\ (x \/ y) /\ z simplifies to x /\ y /\ z in any lattice.
10:24:54 <int-e> No I don't think you can get [a∧b∧c, ???, a∨b∨c] directly. You can satisfy one end using (1 3) (1 2) (2 3) (and its dual).
10:27:38 <shachaf> I guess the constraint here is that you only have three slots to store items in.
10:31:18 <int-e> Yeah maybe 3 is an exception... So, it works for n=2. (1 2) (3 4) (2 4) (1 3) (2 3) does it for n = 4...
10:31:51 <shachaf> Well, I'd prefer to have optimal depth for every slot, or something.
10:32:45 <int-e> well, then you want a minimum depth sorting network?
10:33:14 <int-e> Maybe with something that's well approximated by minimum size as a secondary optimization criterion.
10:33:26 <shachaf> "minimum depth" is about the time to complete the entire network.
10:33:41 <shachaf> But for a 3-item network the depth of the min and max is only 2, and the depth of the median is 3.
10:34:09 <int-e> *actually* there may be an odd/even phenomenon for the generalized [a∧b∧c, ???, a∨b∨c] question... Hmm.
10:34:10 <shachaf> Anyway I'm not sure I actually care that much about this, I was just curious.
10:34:21 <shachaf> What's the generalized question?
10:35:02 <int-e> whether we can simultaneously have the infimum and the supremum of all inputs as the top and bottom results of the sorting network.
10:35:03 <shachaf> In my file I'm writing & for ∧ and | for ∨. Maybe I'll use this notation from now on.
10:35:20 <shachaf> I guess it's ambiguous because people usually mean a different lattice by those operators.
10:37:05 <int-e> I have this start:
10:37:06 <int-e> : a&b a|b c d&e d|e
10:37:30 <int-e> and it occured to me that whatever I use for c next will inevitably lead to terms mixing | and &.
10:38:06 <shachaf> What if you had some extra space?
10:38:27 <int-e> well, for even numbers of inputs I can combine the inputs in pairs
10:38:30 <shachaf> I imagine a constant number of slots doesn't help beyond a constant number of outputs.
10:38:53 <int-e> and then work on the resulting _ & _ and _ | _ terms separately, leading to the infimum and supremum.
10:39:55 <int-e> So, generally: do (1 2) (3 4) ... (2n-1 2n), followed by (1 3) (1 5) ... (1 2n-1) and the reflected version thereof.
10:40:12 <shachaf> But you can't keep them separated for very long.
10:40:41 <int-e> long enough to make the ends meet and join.
10:40:59 <shachaf> Sure, but I care about the all the elements, not just the ends.
10:41:17 <shachaf> The depth of the first and last element is always n.
10:41:26 <shachaf> What's the depth of the second element?
10:42:42 <int-e> You can arrange the computation in a tree. So yeah, log n.
10:42:58 <shachaf> We can assume power of 2 networks, I guess.
10:45:23 <int-e> Batcher's sort gives an upper bound of log(n)^2/2 on the depth, I think.
10:47:03 <int-e> "It is also possible, in theory, to construct networks of logarithmic depth for arbitrary size, using a construction called the AKS network"
10:47:31 <int-e> TIL: There's another AKS result of little practical importance.
10:48:23 <shachaf> These are not the same AKS, though.
10:48:45 <int-e> (The polynomial time primality test is newer, but I heard about it when it was discovered.)
10:49:54 <int-e> Anyway, I really think that existing research on minimum (and small) depth sorting networks largely covers your question.
10:50:40 <shachaf> I finally read the thing about deterministic O(n) median calculation the other day.
10:50:51 <shachaf> That seems to be another algorithm of little practical importance.
10:51:09 <shachaf> But it's surprising that it works.
10:51:42 <int-e> The median of medians thing... yeah, amazing. It's instructive, too.
10:52:41 <int-e> Hmm, doesn't Knuth also invesitage networks for extracting k-th elements?
10:53:41 <shachaf> Does he? I never read TAOCP (as you can probably tell).
10:53:53 <int-e> What's instructive is the clever use of transitivity. Oh and the fact that just because something doesn't work for n=3, it might still work for n=5 ;)
10:54:46 <shachaf> That's an obvious prank from the universe.
10:54:57 <shachaf> We already know that numbers greater than 2 don't really exist.
10:55:12 <shachaf> Now we're expected to believe in 5?
10:55:15 <int-e> "selection network" is the keyword. (bad google term, but it's okay if you add "sorting")
10:56:08 <int-e> "There aren't enough small numbers to meet the many demands made of them."
10:57:27 <shachaf> I'm still curious about what a sorting network means in a lattice.
10:58:00 <shachaf> I remember we talked about how you can sort computable reals since you only require the result to be extensionally a permutation of the input, not intensionally.
11:00:30 <int-e> shachaf: Birkhoff's theorem (mentioned above) is the only handle I have on this.
11:01:10 <int-e> basic intuition: decompose the (distributive) lattice into a cartesian product of totally ordered sets. sort component-wise.
11:01:11 <shachaf> "any spherically symmetric solution of the vacuum field equations must be static and asymptotically flat"
11:02:26 <shachaf> I think I see what you mean, though.
11:02:26 <int-e> With Birkhoffs theorem you get that, except that you may also be carving out a subset that is closed under infimum and supremum.
11:03:50 <int-e> (and in particular it reduces anything to totally ordered sets of size 2, because you can carve out any chain from its powerset using ideals)
11:04:51 <int-e> for example, 1 <= 2 <= ... <= n can be mapped to {1}, {1,2}, ..., {1,..,n} ordered by the subset relation.
11:07:27 <int-e> to be precise, s/ideal/filter/
11:08:29 <int-e> Sorry, ideal is actually correct. (But at least now I also remember the dual term.)
11:10:17 <b_jonas> `leаrn schachaf is short for schachachf
11:10:18 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: leаrn: not found
11:11:16 <HackEso> 640) <elliott> monqy: it's only... ascii porn... the unicode bits stay covered \ 1100) <shachaf> "Well, that was fun" -- Taneb "atriq" Ngevd
11:13:01 <HackEso> Twinkle, twinkle, little star!
11:13:15 <int-e> (having trouble remembering my own entries)
11:14:34 <HackEso> int-e är inte svensk. Hen kommer att spränga solen. Hen står för sig själv. Hen gillar inte färger, men han gillar dissonans. Er hat ein Hipster-Spiel gekauft.
11:15:12 <shachaf> `learn_append int-e He could never remember his own entries so he put them here for convenience.
11:15:17 <HackEso> 1/1:Cassian Andor \ Jan Dodonna \ Jyn Erso \ BB-9E \ Oola \ Bodhi Rook \ BB-8 \ Darth Maul \ Darth Vader \ Ortugg \ Supreme Leader Snoke \ Doctor Cornelius Evazan \ Rose Tico \ BB-8 \ Jyn Erso \ BB-8 \ Salacious Crumb \ R2-D2 \ Conan Antonio Motti \ Captain Phasma \ Nien Nunb \ Doctor Cornelius Evazan \ General Armitage Hux \ Captain Panaka \ Poe Dameron
11:15:33 <HackEso> #!/usr/bin/perl \ @c=split/\|/,"Admiral Crix Madine|Admiral Firmus Piett|Anakin Skywalker|BB-8|BB-9E|Bail Organa|Baze Malbus|Beru Lars|Bib Fortuna|Biggs Darklighter|Boba Fett|Bodhi Rook|Boss Nass|C-3PO|Captain Panaka|Captain Phasma|Cassian Andor|Chancellor Valorum|Chewbacca|Chief Jawa|Chirrut \x{ce}mwe|Cliegg Lars|Conan Antonio Motti|DJ|Darth Bane|Darth Maul|Darth Plagueis|Darth Vader|Doctor Cornelius Evazan|Count Dooku|Emperor Palpatine|Finn|Galen Erso
11:16:25 <shachaf> My trick of using `grep ''` to print files preceded by file name doesn't work when only given one file.
11:16:38 <shachaf> admittedly my trick is bad. but so is unix tdnh
11:19:44 <shachaf> So quickselect has to mutate the input it's given, right?
11:20:28 <shachaf> Is there a bound on how much space median selection needs if it can't mutate the input?
11:33:55 <b_jonas> "<tswett[m]> I love how in Al Dente, you can't do that; you can only write code that *prevents* stuff from happening." => try https://esolangs.org/wiki/90
11:38:56 <b_jonas> shachaf: you may be thinking of Soulfire Grand Master, Firesong and Sunspeaker, or Puncture Blast
11:41:33 <HackEso> Lettuce is a vegetable with two dressings, join and meet.
11:41:36 <HackEso> Lattices are healthy ingredients that join your sandwiches together.
11:46:34 <b_jonas> "read the thing about deterministic O(n) median calculation" => which thing? the Cormen, Leiserson, Rivest, Stein book?
11:48:25 <int-e> Hmm do you need a particular source for that? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_of_medians
11:49:31 <int-e> And I thought Knuth has it as well (TAoCP)...
11:49:50 <b_jonas> shachaf: you can use grep -h for that
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14:11:20 <int-e> ski: eww I want to unsee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Densely_packed_decimal
14:11:34 <int-e> (prompted by your comment on #haskell)
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14:16:36 <ski> ohh, never seen
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14:24:15 <int-e_> oh right, the logs are down too...
14:25:24 <b_jonas> int-e: the tunes logs work
14:25:32 <int-e_> ski: anyway, that page is linked from the IEEE 754 page (IEEE 754 does specify decimal floating point numbers; the main point(sic!) isn't that the representation should be decimal, but that the mantissa/exponent are decimal. The FPU might use any representation it likes.
14:25:56 * ski was just about to say what b_jonas said
14:26:29 <int-e_> FSV of "work"... can't display in browser...
14:26:54 <ski> <http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/19.06.01> works here
14:27:27 <ski> you mean that the exponent is wrt base `10' ?
14:27:28 <int-e_> despite the "Open in Browser" plugin?! how does that fail...
14:27:55 <int-e_> ski: meaning the number is multiplied by 10^[decoded e]
14:28:01 <int-e_> rather than 2^[decoded e]
14:28:33 <ski> ("Open in Browser" plugin ?)
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14:29:19 <ski> <int-e_> rather than 2^[decoded e] <ski> right <ski> ("Open in Browser" plugin ?)
14:29:43 <int-e_> I don't trust the VPS just yet.
14:30:08 <ski> oh, i'm seeing double, then
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14:31:45 <int-e_> now it's getting weird.
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14:36:55 <int-e_> Okay, that was stupid. I thought the VPS had a reboot, but it just had a network hickup and my old screen session was still around. Hopefully back for good...
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14:38:15 * ski screens the sessions
14:41:55 <int-e> (different VPS ;-) )
14:46:03 <ski> different ?
14:47:01 <int-e> lambdabot's on a VPS. My IRC client is on a VPS. These two VPSs are not the same.
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15:53:45 <int-e> ski: re: Open in Browser: It's this plugin, https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/open-in-browser/ which is supposed to allow me to override what FF does with a link... one of the options being "open in browser as text". But it doesn't work in this case.
15:54:23 <int-e> and that's despite the server properly declaring it as Content-Type: text/plain :-/
15:54:58 * int-e blames software complexity.
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15:57:15 <int-e> (disabling the addon (that's what FF calls it) doesn't help either)
15:58:09 <int-e> Everything sucks. Chrome is breaking Ad blockers, FF is breaking simpler things like X11 selections.
16:00:10 <ski> oic. used W3m here
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16:43:41 <int-e> (I'm sure that was *very* original)
16:44:28 <int-e> `quote precipation
16:44:41 <HackEso> 889) <Bike> Usually I'd use Rankine, but the fucking weather doesn't support it.
16:45:43 <int-e> `complain Nobody's talking about the weather here, despite metasepia's best efforts!
16:45:45 <HackEso> Complaint filed. Thank you.
16:45:50 <b_jonas> int-e: I don't really understand what Firefox does with it. I assumed the server was just sending the wrong Content-Type or Content-Disposition for the logs, but that's not the case
16:46:00 <b_jonas> anyway, you can still download the logs, or view in another browser
16:46:18 <int-e> I know but it's inconvenient.
16:46:44 <int-e> (I'm a potted plant. FEED ME!)
16:47:07 <b_jonas> I was wondering if it depended on whether it's valid utf-8 or something, but that doesn't seem to be the problem either
16:47:25 <zzo38> Try prefixing "view-source:" to the URL
16:51:20 <b_jonas> maybe it doesn't like LF instead of CRLF or something
16:51:49 <b_jonas> like, firefox assumes that text/plains files should have crlf in them, which is what they often have when webserverers serve them
16:52:16 <zzo38> If prefixing "view-source:" doesn't work, try using curl and less, perhaps
16:54:44 <int-e> b_jonas: it somehow falls back on guessing the file type from the extension. which is quite stupid...
16:57:08 <int-e> but you're probably right that it has to do with the contents
16:58:25 <int-e> but it's unclear what it is that it doesn't like... unicode symbols or stray ^Os perhaps?
16:59:35 * int-e notes that the server does not specify an encoding. that may be a problem.
17:07:24 <b_jonas> int-e: oh, that could be it
17:07:52 <b_jonas> but that shouldn't be a problem, should it?
17:08:18 <b_jonas> I mean, the web used to be full of html files that didn't specify an encoding back in the 2000s, which is why changing the encoding is still in the firefox menu
17:08:28 <int-e> well if FF then runs statistics on the input and sees 1% invalid characters...
17:08:42 <b_jonas> in the View menu of Firefox
17:09:11 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, but the last few days' worth of logs are actually valid utf-8
17:09:49 <int-e> FF tends to default to ISO8859-1 for me.
17:10:02 <int-e> which... hmm... pokes a hole into my reasoning.
17:10:10 <zzo38> Sometimes I do need to change the encoding in the View menu (not always to UTF-8, although sometimes this is the case, and sometimes not); this is more for files that aren't HTML, though, I found.
17:10:12 <int-e> since that doesn't have invalid encodings at all :)
17:10:28 <b_jonas> int-e: definitely not. browsers never even use iso-8859-1 encoding, even if you tell them
17:10:51 <b_jonas> they use cp1252, because the web was also full of cp1252 html files declared to be iso-8859-1 back in the 2000s
17:11:20 <zzo38> If you think Chrome and Firefox is no good, do you think http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/web_browser is good? Presumably also if used on X then it won't break selections either
17:11:23 <b_jonas> and cp1252 has twelve invalid characters, or five if you call MS's updated version of cp1252 with the same name
17:14:33 <int-e> yeah, maybe. (cp437 forever!)
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18:01:58 <rain1> problem is it's hard to make a web browser
18:30:21 <adu> problem is, no one can define what a web browser is
18:31:45 <rain1> that's not the problem
18:32:26 <int-e> rain1: so make let's make it simpler then
18:32:29 <adu> is it HTML5? SVG? MathML? Canvas2D? WebGL? WebAsm? Workers?
18:32:58 <adu> I think web browsers should be scribble based
18:34:08 <adu> https://docs.racket-lang.org/scribble/getting-started.html#%28part._first-example%29
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18:53:03 <int-e> yay another markup language
18:53:48 <int-e> and not a pretty one either
18:54:51 <int-e> I guess it's also a templating language so perhaps there's some justification for its existence.
18:57:37 <rain1> well gopher is good
18:57:49 <rain1> i think you could do something good that's between gopher and web
18:58:42 <int-e> HTML (you know, the markup language) plus CSS minus animations.
19:00:18 <int-e> (CSS needs a closer look, it carries quite some baggage by now)
19:02:38 <int-e> And none of this will happen anyway. We'll just keep adding stuff to the pile. Some parts like Flash will slowly fall into disuse and fade away.
19:09:05 <int-e> TLAs should be banned from all communications.
19:12:22 <zzo38> I wrote a C header file for WebAssembly, but it is not implemented (as far as I know).
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19:55:08 <int-e> zzo38: well I expect no less of you; you are the god of vaporware
19:55:42 <zzo38> Is there a implementation of WebAssembly to use with C rather than JavaScript?
19:56:01 <b_jonas> zzo38: I think clang has one, but I'm not sure
19:57:09 <int-e> I'm not sure what niche that is supposed to fill, really. OpenCL / SPIR-V may be more relevant here.
19:59:57 <zzo38> I know LLVM can compile into WebAssembly code, but what I meant is a program to execute WebAssembly codes from a C program.
20:00:13 <shachaf> b_jonas: Ah, probably. At least the first two? I don't see the last one having to do with lifelink.
20:00:53 <b_jonas> shachaf: it doesn't, it's just another of those cases where you have an ability that's usually on creatures, like lifelink, deathtouch, infect, but get it on a noncreature
20:01:00 <b_jonas> shachaf: grep -h to print the filename even if there's only one file
20:01:14 <HackEso> #!/usr/bin/perl \ @c=split/\|/,"Admiral Crix Madine|Admiral Firmus Piett|Anakin Skywalker|BB-8|BB-9E|Bail Organa|Baze Malbus|Beru Lars|Bib Fortuna|Biggs Darklighter|Boba Fett|Bodhi Rook|Boss Nass|C-3PO|Captain Panaka|Captain Phasma|Cassian Andor|Chancellor Valorum|Chewbacca|Chief Jawa|Chirrut \x{ce}mwe|Cliegg Lars|Conan Antonio Motti|DJ|Darth Bane|Darth Maul|Darth Plagueis|Darth Vader|Doctor Cornelius Evazan|Count Dooku|Emperor Palpatine|Finn|Galen Erso
20:01:20 <HackEso> bin/starwars:#!/usr/bin/perl \ bin/starwars:@c=split/\|/,"Admiral Crix Madine|Admiral Firmus Piett|Anakin Skywalker|BB-8|BB-9E|Bail Organa|Baze Malbus|Beru Lars|Bib Fortuna|Biggs Darklighter|Boba Fett|Bodhi Rook|Boss Nass|C-3PO|Captain Panaka|Captain Phasma|Cassian Andor|Chancellor Valorum|Chewbacca|Chief Jawa|Chirrut \x{ce}mwe|Cliegg Lars|Conan Antonio Motti|DJ|Darth Bane|Darth Maul|Darth Plagueis|Darth Vader|Doctor Cornelius Evazan|Count Dooku|Emperor Pa
20:01:35 <shachaf> cat -v is considered harmful, I hear.
20:01:36 <b_jonas> -h omits the filename even if there's multiple files, -H puts them in even for one file
20:01:47 <HackEso> grep: wisdom/8: Is a directory \ ! is a syntax used in Haskell and Prolog for solving evaluation order problems. \ #esoteric is the only channel that exists. After monqy left it became slightly off-centër. It's a 7-codimensional hyperenchilada about 30 m (100 ft) across. oerjan seems to be making a lawn in the northern part, but it keeps getting dug up by free ranging moons. Currently located in the Atlantis Exclusion Zone. \ 01 is an abbreviation that 01
20:02:00 <HackEso> ! is a syntax used in Haskell and Prolog for solving evaluation order problems. \ #esoteric is the only channel that exists. After monqy left it became slightly off-centër. It's a 7-codimensional hyperenchilada about 30 m (100 ft) across. oerjan seems to be making a lawn in the northern part, but it keeps getting dug up by free ranging moons. Currently located in the Atlantis Exclusion Zone. \ 01 is an abbreviation that 01 understands. \ The 1 is just
20:02:24 <b_jonas> shachaf: I don't think it's harmful, but I said head -v
20:02:33 <b_jonas> I use cat -v or cat -A a lot
20:09:50 <shachaf> the real point is, unix is scow
20:10:53 <shachaf> It's such a scow that it's so difficult to make correct software out of unix pipelines and shells.
20:11:04 <shachaf> Almost impossible, and certainly not the norm.
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20:34:45 <b_jonas> how come this doesn't have an "is just" wisdom?
20:35:30 <shachaf> Because no one wrote it. Which might be because the average "is just" wisdom is p. bad.
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22:25:27 <zzo38> Of my idea of RDF-based coding for Magic: the Gathering cards, there would be many parts (some of which are applicable to some cards only), such as :name :manacost :type :abilities :power :toughness :handmod :lifemod :split :flipped :transformed :melded :multiverseid
22:26:28 <adu> what is multiverseid?
22:27:21 <zzo38> It is used only for searching and has no effect on the game. A card definition may specify multiple IDs in case there are multiple versions printed. It can also be used for finding pictures and stuff if needed
22:27:45 <adu> is that the name of a database?
22:28:25 <zzo38> I don't know, but Wizards of the Coast has a database of Magic: the Gathering cards and they are indexed by the Multiverse ID number.
22:29:52 <zzo38> A name identifies the card for game play purposes, while the Multiverse ID number identifies one specific printed version of the card.
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22:37:12 <adu> my MTG database is a cardboard box
22:44:17 <zzo38> I mentioned other examples of my ideas here too, and maybe a document should be written with the ideas. A computer program to implement rules of Magic: the Gathering could then use this data to possibly convert into some other code. This also allows text-changing effects to work (some implementations do not implement text-changing effects).
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23:51:14 <b_jonas> the IOCCC website says it's planning to release source code on 2019-06-02. do you think they will?
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01:09:23 <zzo38> I would expect that they will, although I don't know what time or what timezone.
01:09:59 <shachaf> it's always 2019-06-02 somewhere
01:12:34 <zzo38> I should want that a Free software program would compile the RDF codes into native codes, taking into account everything to determine what cases the compiled program needs to consider, such as what text-changing effects are used in the cards so that it can know what text can be overridden in what ways.
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02:12:25 <lambdabot> int-e said 3d 16h 33m 1s ago: oh no, now things may be going horribly right in the long term
02:12:59 <oerjan> yeah someone's likely to be coming back at the worst possible moment.
02:15:06 <HackEso> 558) <fungot> Ngevd:. i'm so kind, even to assholes! anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov
02:15:16 <oerjan> is the markov in there really accurate
02:15:29 <oerjan> i recall that repeating pattern without it.
02:54:56 <zzo38> shachaf: I have not had so many problem with UNIX pipelines; some software is not designed to do that but I usually do design it to do that.
02:58:43 <zzo38> For example, my Farbfeld Utilities software is entirely intended to be worked by pipes. Some other programs allow you to specify a command with a pipe where a filename is expected, and Heirloom-mailx is one that does, and I often use that when dealing with attachments. You can also pipe through external programs with vim, and I use that too.
03:02:10 <zzo38> (It is also useful with curl, you can send the output to other programs, such as less and zcat)
03:03:44 <zzo38> (And, in fact, "curl | zcat" is like what I use when downloading Amiga Preservation music.)
03:20:01 <oerjan> <ais523> rain1: the symbol doesn't always tell you if a solution exists <-- it is the basis of an algorithm which does, though.
03:21:38 <oerjan> basically check each prime factor the modulus separately, with some complication for powers of 2.
03:23:20 <zzo38> What is called, the technique when you look through two lists both of which are sorted and contain no duplicates, in order to find items that match?
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05:21:10 <zzo38> Do you like a global enchantment card with "graft 2" and "dash {G}" that is not a creature?
05:21:49 <zzo38> Do you like a non-creature artifact with "graft 1" and "undying" and "echo {0}"?
05:34:56 <oerjan> @tell ais523 <ais523> e.g. is 333333 six repeats of 3, three repeats of 33, two repeats of 333, or one repeat of 333333? <-- a number that is a repetition of another non-1 number cannot be prime, though.
05:35:52 <oerjan> @tell ais523 although there might be more than one of the form 11...1.
05:36:41 <lambdabot> • Perhaps you meant ‘isPrint’ (imported from Data.Char)
05:39:41 <oerjan> @tell ais523 apparently there are conjectured to be infinitely many https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repunit#Decimal_repunit_primes
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05:46:04 <oerjan> `addquote <shachaf> `unidecode ⧸🙼 <HackEso> [U+29F8 BIG SOLIDUS] [U+1F67C VERY HEAVY SOLIDUS] <shachaf> it is with a very heavy solidus that i write to inform you that unicode has too many code points
05:46:08 <HackEso> 1334) <shachaf> `unidecode ⧸🙼 <HackEso> [U+29F8 BIG SOLIDUS] [U+1F67C VERY HEAVY SOLIDUS] <shachaf> it is with a very heavy solidus that i write to inform you that unicode has too many code points
05:46:43 <HackEso> 1333) <shachaf> #define __NR_oldolduname 59 <olsner> fungot: what's your old old name? <fungot> olsner: they decided not to waste any brain cells storing obscure unix silliness). \ 1334) <shachaf> `unidecode ⧸🙼 <HackEso> [U+29F8 BIG SOLIDUS] [U+1F67C VERY HEAVY SOLIDUS] <shachaf> it is with a very heavy solidus that i write to inform you that unicode has too many code points
05:47:57 <HackEso> 11825:2019-06-02 <oerjän> addquote <shachaf> `unidecode \xe2\xa7\xb8\xf0\x9f\x99\xbc <HackEso> \xe2\x80\x8b[U+29F8 BIG SOLIDUS] [U+1F67C VERY HEAVY SOLIDUS] <shachaf> it is with a very heavy solidus that i write to inform you that unicode has too many code points \ 11790:2019-04-17 <oerjän> sled quotes//1333s, <, <,g \ 11789:2019-04-16 <b_jonäs> addquote <shachaf> #define __NR_oldolduname 59 <olsner> fungot: what\'s your old old name? <fun
05:48:25 <shachaf> quote frequency is p. low huh
05:48:40 <shachaf> `` doag quotes | grep addquote | awk '{print $1}' | xargs
05:48:42 <HackEso> 11825:2019-06-02 11789:2019-04-16 11746:2019-02-25 11736:2019-02-17 11735:2019-02-15 11667:2018-12-08 11662:2018-12-05 11628:2018-10-06 11610:2018-08-22 11589:2018-08-08 11585:2018-07-21 11580:2018-07-01 11551:2018-05-08 11523:2018-04-23 11439:2018-03-03 11348:2018-02-21 11346:2018-02-19 11316:2018-01-13 11315:2018-01-12 11255:2017-12-07 11252:2017-12-06 11197:2017-09-26 11173:2017-08-30 11096:2017-07-19 11062:2017-06-30 11060:2017-06-30 10876:2017-05-09 1
05:49:09 <shachaf> maybe fizzie will make a fancy graph of when quotes are added
05:50:14 <lambdabot> error: Variable not in scope: ransomNote
05:50:59 <shachaf> 𝔦𝓕 y⒪𝖴 🅦𝙰𝐍𝕥 🆃𝗢 s𝑬𝚎 @🅡𝗔𝘕𝙎Ⓞ𝓶𝗻🄾𝙩𝘌 𝔸𝓖𝐀🅸𝘕...
05:52:04 <oerjan> <xylochoron[m]> sparse files hmm interesting <-- if someone does that we need to invent double unary to force them to implement sparse file lengths hth
06:30:41 <oerjan> <b_jonas> int-e: yes, but the last few days' worth of logs are actually valid utf-8 <-- ironically that's probably because esowiki is gone
06:31:30 <shachaf> Does esowiki emit invalid UTF-8?
06:33:04 <oerjan> which may not actually be invalid, but certainly are what tends to confuse my browser
06:34:23 <shachaf> Aren't they all octets smaller than 128?
06:35:05 <shachaf> An octet should be made of 12 bits, like an octave.
06:35:12 <shachaf> Well, I suppose an octave is only 1 bit.
06:42:25 <oerjan> that makes no sense, "octave" is latin for 8th (m. voc. sg.) hth
06:46:03 <shachaf> fortunately fake esowiki bot saved us all
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08:27:23 <oerjan> schlock mercenary's current arc is getting creepy
08:28:15 * oerjan is reading it in parallel with his binge, which is still back in 2011
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10:11:08 <b_jonas> wow. still thunderstorm warnings for today and the three days after
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14:31:28 <tswett[m]> Man, I wanna run neural nets on #esoteric logs again.
14:32:24 <tswett[m]> I wonder if I should do char-rnn or GPT-2.
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14:57:29 <ais523> !tell oerjan counterexamples to the Goldbach conjecture aren't prime anyway (although they can't end in 3, so the example was dubious in another way)
14:57:35 <ais523> @message oerjan counterexamples to the Goldbach conjecture aren't prime anyway (although they can't end in 3, so the example was dubious in another way)
14:57:35 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: messages messages-loud messages?
14:57:38 <ais523> @tell oerjan counterexamples to the Goldbach conjecture aren't prime anyway (although they can't end in 3, so the example was dubious in another way)
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16:56:31 <HackEso> The password of the month has been replaced with a security key for protection against advanced persistent threats.
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17:11:18 <int-e> `learn The password of the month has been erroneously sent to the NSA. We apologize for the inconvenience.
17:11:20 <HackEso> Relearned 'password': The password of the month has been erroneously sent to the NSA. We apologize for the inconvenience.
17:12:55 <int-e> . o O ( Master Yoda is part of the New Word Order. )
17:14:55 <int-e> Oh "is fighting for" would work better :)
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19:02:56 <shachaf> int-e: Wait, what's the deal with those passwords?
19:03:26 <shachaf> I thought the whole joke behind wisdom/password was that you'd say "The password of the month is X" and X could be interpreted as both a password and a grammatical sentence.
19:03:52 <shachaf> But if you say "password of the month has X" that defeats the joke, doesn't it?
19:04:17 <int-e> maybe the joke's on you for having expectations
19:04:41 <zzo38> The temperature sensors for my computer say: temp1: +84.0 C (high = +100.0 C, crit = +110.0 C) CPU Temperature: +30.5 C (high = +60.0 C, crit = +95.0 C) MB Temperature: +23.0 C (high = +45.0 C, crit = +95.0 C) These are higher than usual, but at least it isn't close to the "high" numbers.
19:04:48 <shachaf> oerjan: Wasn't that the joke? I'm very confusil.
19:04:59 <shachaf> Have I been misreading these password entries all these years?
19:05:34 <zzo38> What is supposed to be done if it does reach the "high" numbers, and how should be consideration of the temperature? Also, what do of hard drive temperature (which has no high/crit)? It is also higher than usual, but I don't know how much is too high
19:05:39 <int-e> shachaf: we followed that pattern for a long time
19:05:58 <shachaf> I know, but was that pattern the joke or was I misreading it?
19:06:18 <int-e> It's up to you I think.
19:06:41 <zzo38> Do you know much about computer temperatures?
19:08:10 <int-e> shachaf: The password of the month is evolving.
19:08:21 <shachaf> zzo38: The other day I disassembled my laptop and removed the dust. Now the tempereature is lower.
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19:09:31 <shachaf> I also have a graph of the temperature, sampled at each sensor every 10 seconds for the last two weeks.
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19:48:57 <zzo38> Would it help to put the computer on top of cement blocks? I don't have any cement blocks, but I seem to remember I read somewhere that suggestion.
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19:53:27 <int-e> shachaf: no cement.
19:53:48 <int-e> I *was* humoring you.
19:54:55 <HackEso> `run:`run <command> is HackEgo's builtin for running a command with full shell syntax. These days most use the user-made `` or ``` shortcuts instead, although all of the three have subtle differences, with `run being the most plain option (also, unlike the rest it cannot be called from other commands.) \ subtle:The 'b' sound is pronounced in 'subtle', it's just difficult to hear.
20:15:23 <HackEso> `! emulates the ! command of our former bot EgoBot. You write `! then the name of the language then a program, and it runs the program you give and returns the result. We used to use it to test out esoprograms in-channel all the time, but the set of included esolangs is fairly old now and so it's rarely used.
20:15:25 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/!: line 4: /hackenv/ibin/`?: No such file or directory
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20:51:45 <lambdabot> CYVR 022000Z 16005G15KT 130V240 30SM FEW040 FEW070 FEW220 BKN250 22/13 A2988 RMK CU1AC1CI2CS4 CU TR AC TR SLP121 DENSITY ALT 900FT
20:51:53 <b_jonas> so the "HP Pavilion" is a brand name of notebook computers? is that what hppavilion[0] got their name of?
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21:24:39 <shachaf> Oh, apparently it's been renamed.
21:40:52 <zzo38> Now is it good? http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Zzo38/Untitled_2
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00:15:31 <shachaf> man, how 'bout that #haskell, huh
00:23:07 <zzo38> I wrote a official fan-game/fan-story policy for my "xyzabcde" game series. It is found at: http://zzo38computer.org/xyzabcde/fangame.txt Do you think it is OK?
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00:34:16 <shachaf> Is there any language that does non-global GC effectively?
00:34:25 <shachaf> I think Erlang is the closest I know of.
00:50:56 <shachaf> As Saul Gorn said: "Tomorrow, which isn’t even here yet, will never be the day after tomorrow again."
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02:05:59 <zzo38> I don't know if LLVM does, either, but you can try to look maybe
02:46:40 <tswett[m]> So I'm retraining GPT-2 on #esoteric logs. :D
02:46:49 <tswett[m]> It's producing a lot of messages from "shashmaf".
02:47:36 * tswett[m] sent a long message: < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/aEBBWmuCSCXCSseeazmVRhta >
02:49:07 <tswett[m]> I was using too high a learning rate anyway. The starting point is a model that knows English really well, but the aggressive training caused it to forget all that.
02:49:49 <zzo38> And there is a timestamp with five pieces, too, it look like
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03:13:52 <tswett[m]> One of the samples consisted entirely of a single humongous timestamp.
03:14:20 <tswett[m]> I'll go ahead and paste the entire sample.
03:14:22 * tswett[m] sent a long message: < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/EgJPeXoVAePQqlqemMKxktil >
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03:42:58 <tswett[m]> "Language-bound variables are treated as if they were bound to variable length. To test whether a variable-length variable has some fixed-length state, let x be the bound variable of x, and let y be a variable of variable-length state, such that it has a variable-length binding that is one of the two variable-length bindings of the variable-length variable."
03:44:43 <kmc> shachaf: what did #haskell do now
03:46:19 <shachaf> I think it was just the usual monad nonsense.
03:47:48 <shachaf> speaking of nonsense, is rust trying to take every bad idea from npm/nodejs
03:48:11 <kmc> what'd they do now
03:48:14 <zzo38> Which bad ideas is that?
03:49:04 <shachaf> I just saw some Cargo packages and they seemed inspired by the npm ideal of "do one thing and do it poorly".
03:49:36 <shachaf> And also written by JavaScript people I think.
03:49:45 <zzo38> I should think it depends on the package. There are a lot of packages isn't so good.
03:49:47 <kmc> they seem hellbent on ruining a great systems language
03:50:03 <kmc> and this is true, 90% of everything is crap (being generous)
03:50:59 <zzo38> Yes, so that is going to do, regardless of the programming language in use. Just avoid to use the packages that is no good. The existence of it should not require you to use them if it is not applicable for your program
03:51:01 <kmc> shachaf: did you see that the rust-lang.org design was so disastrous that the entire website team resigned / was deposed after massive negative feedback from the community
03:51:13 <kmc> imo bring back my bullet points
03:54:12 <kmc> and there's going to be some kind of postmortem about the whole cock-up
03:54:14 <kmc> which is delayed
03:59:37 <shachaf> fortunately all sorts of people are working on systems languages now
04:04:36 <kmc> any cool ones i should know about?
04:12:59 <shachaf> what do you want from a systems language
04:18:31 <tswett[m]> Hey, it finally generated something that looks like a chat log. :D
04:19:19 <tswett[m]> Ethan_Gestapo has a conversation with Koenig and GangstaR about writing about dying.
04:20:29 <tswett[m]> Here it is. https://pastebin.com/H2dVTRuF
04:21:55 <tswett[m]> You know what's particularly weird? It generated chat logs—but not in the style of the chat logs I'm training on.
04:22:05 <tswett[m]> It added brackets around the timestamps. The training data doesn't have those.
04:22:25 <tswett[m]> Presumably, GPT-2's original corpus has some chat logs similar to that.
04:23:08 <tswett[m]> So my fine-tuned model has learned that it should generate chat logs, but it hasn't learned that it shouldn't put brackets around the timestamps.
04:24:17 <tswett[m]> Also, the timestamps happen to all have 28 as the hour.
04:29:41 <kmc> I am the queen of the 28th hour
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04:44:17 <tswett[m]> We've never had a person here named esowiki, right?
04:44:30 <tswett[m]> Because it just generated a long monologue by someone named esowiki.
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04:45:09 <shachaf> esowiki was a bot, and also a person pretending to be that bot.
04:45:22 <shachaf> Did it generate a long, stream-of-consciousness by tswett[m]?
04:45:46 <tswett[m]> I don't think I delivered very many of my famous monologues in 2018, though.
04:45:50 <tswett[m]> That's the training data I'm using.
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05:11:47 <shachaf> did you see my ridiculous c11 fmt macro
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05:20:38 <tswett[m]> Now the model has created somebody named "int_jonas".
05:21:56 <tswett[m]> 11:50:50 <int_jonas> Phantom: Phantom isn't Phantom, Phantom was Phantom's thought, Phantom is Phantom's thought
05:22:12 <tswett[m]> In this sample, every message has "Phantom" once every two or three words.
05:22:23 <tswett[m]> Okay, enough of this nonsense, I'm going to bed.
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05:47:35 <moony> oh is esowiki deat?
06:14:26 <HackEso> 1016) <Bike> http://www.amazon.com/Someone-Cuttlefish-Shapeshifter-Erotica-ebook/dp/B0087PTMW2 i hope you know this is going to /fuck up/ my amazon recs
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07:13:10 <fizzie> That might have been a reference to the bot.
07:13:39 <fizzie> Which is temporarily dead.
07:20:30 <fizzie> I've managed to diagnose it to the fact that it's statically linked; for whatevere reason that makes it segfault in std::thread::detach(). When I remove features = ["fully_static_link"] from the BUILD file it starts to work again.
07:20:36 <fizzie> Unfortunately that was a necessary workaround for the fact that GCC on the machine it's running on isn't new enough to compile the code. If they'd just go on and release Debian 10...
07:20:40 <fizzie> In the meanwhile, I'm not sure how to work around the workaround.
07:21:18 <shachaf> static linking is the best
07:21:28 <shachaf> if your program doesn't work with static linking it's broken hth
07:21:53 <fizzie> Well, I mean, glibc doesn't even support static linking for programs that call getaddrinfo.
07:22:08 <fizzie> external/fi_zem_bracket/event/socket.cc:258: warning: Using 'getaddrinfo' in statically linked applications requires at runtime the shared libraries from the glibc version used for linking
07:22:51 <fizzie> I don't think the breakage is necessary related to that, though, since it segfaults the same way even on the same machine it's built on nowadays.
07:23:11 <shachaf> getaddrinfo is kind of a scow api anyway
07:26:23 <fizzie> I don't know. But I don't want to start figuring out how to make Bazel build for that. Although apparently it's maybe been done.
07:26:56 <shachaf> is there any excuse for these things to be complicated instead of simple
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07:30:53 <fizzie> I guess it's hard to make complex things simple.
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07:32:54 <shachaf> but why is it complex in the first place
07:35:53 <b_jonas> shachaf: Cargo packages have been doing that for a while, as in, CPAN-like dependency hell. you don't have to use those packages.
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07:38:47 <b_jonas> fizzie: you could install a newer gcc then. it doesn't have many dependencies.
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08:39:33 <fizzie> That might be plausible. It's taking a long time to build though.
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09:16:36 <fizzie> (Maybe I should've done --disable-bootstrap.)
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09:35:03 <wob_jonas> fizzie: yes; what can speed it down a lot is if you configure it with --enable-languages=c,c++,fortran or the like, so that it doesn't try to compile the java and golang and ada and objective c and whatever else it has now standard libraries
09:45:06 <wob_jonas> and yes, you shouldn't disable bootstrap unless you're cross-compiling
09:45:24 <wob_jonas> onto some unusual architecture where you can't native compile gcc
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10:12:56 <wob_jonas> fizzie: thank you for spending time to maintain those tools though, they're very useful
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10:22:14 <fizzie> I did --enable-languages=c,c++, which should be enough. Now I'll be out for the day, but in the evening I'll hopefully be able to bring things back up.
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16:44:22 <int-e> ski: We have such entries for many regulars. I was wondering if this one says anything about a crusade against abstraction... or perhaps some other silly thing. But no such luck.
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16:56:07 <b_jonas> yet another new mulligan rule for M:tG? wtf
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18:44:05 <fizzie> Blah. Now it says "null context when constructing CivetServer. Possible problem binding to port."
18:44:09 <fizzie> Well, at least that's an error message, instead of a mysterious segfault.
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18:45:17 <fizzie> Oh, there was just an instance running in gdb from previous testing.
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20:51:21 <fizzie> CivetWeb is an embedded web server thing, I use it for metrics (and in another binary, for serving the logs).
21:14:30 <kmc> civit poo coffee
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23:49:25 <Sgeo__> I'm looking at a piece of code to convert opaque internal stuff into euler rotations, and I need to reverse it, and it should be easy, but my brain just hates me
23:50:34 <shachaf> euler rotations? i just met 'er hth
23:51:23 <Sgeo__> I don't want to need pen and paper to do math
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00:15:16 <int-e> hmm, fancy: https://clang.llvm.org/docs/BlockLanguageSpec.html#block-literal-expressions
00:15:42 <int-e> (every sufficiently advanced programming language invents a closure type?)
00:16:17 <int-e> (I encountered this because it made its way into OpenCL)
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00:16:31 <shachaf> int-e: Oh, they took Objective C's block syntax. I think I've seen this before.
00:16:32 <kmc> blocks have a complictaed abi https://clang.llvm.org/docs/Block-ABI-Apple.html
00:16:43 <kmc> and are mainly meant to work with the objc / apple runtime
00:16:47 <int-e> "OpenCL C 2.0 adds support for the clang block syntax."
00:17:03 <kmc> C++ lambdas are a lot more elegant
00:17:06 <shachaf> kmc: did you know you can typedef function types in c, not just function pointer types?
00:17:11 <kmc> since they are ~zero cost~
00:17:14 <kmc> shachaf: I think so
00:17:28 <int-e> . o O ( You do *not* use "C++" and "elegant" in a sentence. )
00:17:31 <shachaf> but i always saw people do it the other way
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00:17:47 <shachaf> I think lambdas are among the most reasonable of C++ features in the past decade.
00:18:11 * int-e tries to remember where he heard this "You do not use ... in a sentence." for the first time...
00:18:37 <shachaf> Though they could have been more reasonable if the language had been designed with them in mind from the beginning.
00:19:45 <kmc> the same is true of most C++11 features
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00:19:58 <shachaf> well, a lot of them are just unreasonable
00:20:17 <shachaf> c++ templates are such a joke
00:20:35 <shachaf> how do they keep making them more complicated
00:20:47 <shachaf> it's the most ridiculous local maximum
00:21:44 <shachaf> c++ templates can't even be parsed
00:23:59 <int-e> kmc: I would hope that most of that ABI is avoided by inlining.
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01:57:10 <Sgeo__> zzo38, what do you think about the London Mulligan, if you have an opinion about it?
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07:22:05 <esowiki> [[Talk:EnScript]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=63049 * JonoCode9374 * (+692) Just want some clarification about the ENC command
07:22:39 <esowiki> [[Talk:EnScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63050&oldid=63049 * JonoCode9374 * (+93) Added tag
07:33:06 <esowiki> [[Talk:EnScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63051&oldid=63050 * JonoCode9374 * (+238) /* The ENC Command */
07:42:45 <esowiki> [[Talk:EnScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63052&oldid=63051 * JonoCode9374 * (+369) /* The CHS Command */ new section
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07:52:05 <esowiki> [[Deadfish "self-interpreter"]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63053&oldid=63013 * JonoCode9374 * (+849) Added python interpreter for this esolang
07:57:06 <HackEso> quoteformat is: <nick> message; * nick action; two spaces between messages; all elisions marked with [...] other than irrelevant intervening messages; for messages separated by elision, one space on each side, not two.
07:57:14 <HackEso> 13) <fizzie after embedding some of his department research into fungot> Finally I have found some actually useful purpose for it.
07:57:31 <b_jonas> are old quotes excloded from quoteformat? or should we amend them?
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08:34:49 <int-e> hmm, doesn't CL_DEVICE_MAX_COMPUTE_UNITS = 10 (0xa) indicate that I should be able to subdivide the device using clCreateSubDevices ...
08:36:27 <shachaf> int-e: are you making an md5 collision
08:37:04 <int-e> There's also this: CL_DEVICE_PARTITION_MAX_SUB_DEVICES = 1
08:37:55 <int-e> shachaf: I intend to make a partial one. 80 bits, maybe 96.
08:38:55 <shachaf> Maybe I should use OpenCL.
08:38:57 <int-e> The point is really to do *something* with OpenCL.
08:39:13 <shachaf> Or maybe OpenGL compute shaders, since I was doing some other OpenGL things?
08:40:03 <int-e> (I have a single GTX 1060. It's good for about 5GH/s, for this rainbow-like application.)
08:40:45 <shachaf> I guess the right way to do this is the parallel rho algorithm?
08:41:00 <int-e> (So in addition to computing MD5, it's also taking the previous hash and constructing a message from that.)
08:42:23 <shachaf> So you need to encode the hash in a GHC identifier, I guess.
08:42:28 <shachaf> Assuming that's what you're going for.
08:43:40 <int-e> Yeah. I'm targeting the unicode range 0x20000 -- 0x27FFF, since those are all valid in ids.
08:44:25 <shachaf> > map chr [0x20000, 0x27fff]
08:44:32 <shachaf> > text $ map chr [0x20000, 0x27fff]
08:44:45 <HackEso> [U+20000 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-20000] [U+27FFF CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-27FFF]
08:45:21 <int-e> (it's a consecutive range and covers 30% of all the valid characters for identifiers)
08:45:36 <int-e> > let 𠀀𧿿 = 42 in 𠀀𧿿
08:45:40 <shachaf> > map (generalCategory . chr) [0x20000, 0x27fff, 0x28000]
08:45:42 <lambdabot> [OtherLetter,OtherLetter,OtherLetter]
08:46:25 <int-e> it's actually complicated: http://paste.debian.net/1085969/
08:46:33 <shachaf> > unwords $ [printf "%x" x | x <- 0x28000, generalCategory (chr x) /= OtherLetter]
08:46:35 <lambdabot> • No instance for (Num [Int]) arising from the literal ‘0x28000’
08:46:40 <shachaf> > unwords $ [printf "%x" x | x <- [0x28000..], generalCategory (chr x) /= OtherLetter]
08:46:42 <lambdabot> "2a6d7 2a6d8 2a6d9 2a6da 2a6db 2a6dc 2a6dd 2a6de 2a6df 2a6e0 2a6e1 2a6e2 2a6...
08:47:19 <shachaf> > map (generalCategory . chr) [0x2a6d7]
08:51:14 <shachaf> > map length . sortBy (compare `on` negate . length) . filter (\x -> generalCategory (head x) `elem` [UppercaseLetter, LowercaseLetter, TitlecaseLetter, ModifierLetter, OtherLetter, NonSpacingMark, DecimalNumber, OtherNumber]) . groupBy ((==) `on` generalCategory) $ ['\0'..]
08:51:17 <lambdabot> [42711,20941,11172,6582,4149,1143,1071,921,620,569,542,366,363,332,311,268,2...
08:51:45 <shachaf> > map (\(x:_) -> printf "%x" x :: String) . sortBy (compare `on` negate . length) . filter (\x -> generalCategory (head x) `elem` [UppercaseLetter, LowercaseLetter, TitlecaseLetter, ModifierLetter, OtherLetter, NonSpacingMark, DecimalNumber, OtherNumber]) . groupBy ((==) `on` generalCategory) $ ['\0'..]
08:51:48 <lambdabot> ["20000","4e00","ac00","3400","2a700","a016","13000","12000","1401","16800",...
08:52:41 <int-e> > length $ filter (\x -> generalCategory (head x) `elem` [UppercaseLetter, LowercaseLetter, TitlecaseLetter, ModifierLetter, OtherLetter, NonSpacingMark, DecimalNumber, OtherNumber]) . groupBy ((==) `on` generalCategory) $ ['\0'..]
08:52:48 <shachaf> Well, what I did isn't quite correct, for two reasons. But still.
08:53:14 <int-e> > length $ filter (\x -> generalCategory x `elem` [UppercaseLetter, LowercaseLetter, TitlecaseLetter, ModifierLetter, OtherLetter, NonSpacingMark, DecimalNumber, OtherNumber]) $ ['\0'..]
08:53:34 <int-e> > 32768 / (105253+2)
08:53:43 <int-e> that's the 30% figure
08:53:45 <shachaf> @let reasonableCodepoint x = x `elem` [UppercaseLetter, LowercaseLetter, TitlecaseLetter, ModifierLetter, OtherLetter, NonSpacingMark, DecimalNumber, OtherNumber]
08:54:13 <int-e> "for two reasons" was nice.
08:54:37 <shachaf> It might be more than two reasons, but I thought of two.
08:54:48 <int-e> I thought you meant ' and _.
08:55:37 <shachaf> I meant that if you have OtherLetter next to UppercaseLetter or something they should count as one contiguous valid block.
08:56:01 <shachaf> And that surrogate code units and so on don't show up in ['\0'..] so it's not really contiguous.
08:56:16 <int-e> yeah the whole grouping-by-category-first is a bit weird to my mind.
08:56:32 <shachaf> > '\xd800' `elem` ['\0'..]
08:57:53 <shachaf> @let reasonableCodepoint x = generalCategory x `elem` [UppercaseLetter, LowercaseLetter, TitlecaseLetter, ModifierLetter, OtherLetter, NonSpacingMark, DecimalNumber, OtherNumber]
08:58:07 <int-e> > (length ['\0'..], fromEnum (last ['\0'..]))
08:58:08 <shachaf> > map (\(x:_) -> printf "%x" x :: String) . sortBy (compare `on` negate . length) . filter (\(x:_) -> reasonableCodepoint x) . groupBy ((==) `on` reasonableCodepoint) $ ['\0'..]
08:58:13 <lambdabot> ["20000","4e00","ac00","3400","2a700","a000","13000","12000","1401","16800",...
08:58:25 <shachaf> > map length . sortBy (compare `on` negate . length) . filter (\(x:_) -> reasonableCodepoint x) . groupBy ((==) `on` reasonableCodepoint) $ ['\0'..]
08:58:30 <lambdabot> [42711,20941,11172,6582,4149,1165,1071,921,620,569,542,458,366,363,340,333,3...
08:58:45 <int-e> oh I see what you're really doing there.
08:58:46 <shachaf> I must've been thinking of Data.Text.
08:59:35 <int-e> > reverse . sort . map length . group . zipWith (-) [0..] . map fromEnum . filter reasonableCodepoint $ ['\0'..]
08:59:41 <lambdabot> [42711,20941,11172,6582,4149,1165,1071,921,620,569,542,458,366,363,340,333,3...
09:01:47 <shachaf> zipWith (-) [0..] is a bit odd
09:02:32 <shachaf> @let reasonableCodepoint x = generalCategory x `elem` [UppercaseLetter, LowercaseLetter, TitlecaseLetter, ModifierLetter, OtherLetter, NonSpacingMark, DecimalNumber, OtherNumber] || x == '\'' || x == '_'
09:02:45 <int-e> zipWith (-) [0..] maps each consecutive range to a constant.
09:03:07 <esowiki> [[Deadfish "self-interpreter"]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63054&oldid=63053 * JonoCode9374 * (-4) Looks like I forgot how to use html
09:03:09 <int-e> (but makes it hard to reconstruct the original values... so the proper way would be to construct a pair instead)
09:04:27 <int-e> That zipWith may be a bit too clever for its own good.
09:05:00 <shachaf> If you just want the numbers you can do something simpler.
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09:05:53 <shachaf> > reverse . sort . map length . filter (id . head) . group . map reasonableCodepoint $ ['\0'..]
09:05:58 <lambdabot> [42711,20941,11172,6582,4149,1165,1071,921,620,569,542,458,366,363,340,333,3...
09:06:21 <shachaf> good luck reconstructing the original values now hth
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09:07:13 <int-e> well, same thing... keep the old values around
09:07:43 <int-e> (did you have a "fst" there?)
09:07:44 <shachaf> gotta make sure you get the identity of the value
09:07:59 <shachaf> And then I remembered it was a list.
09:09:12 <shachaf> anyway you gotta do it on the gpu. lambdabot is too slow.
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09:43:24 <wob_jonas> shachaf: I think it's technically even more complicated, because the middle dot is also valid inside identifier, plus there's a small set of extra identifier characters that are that only for legacy compatibility reasons (I don't know if Haskell follows that, but that's the unicode recommendation)
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10:21:57 <shachaf> wob_jonas: I was following what GHC does, which int-e posted earlier.
10:22:14 <shachaf> Unicode is in no position to dictate to languages what is or isn't an identifier.
10:22:53 <wob_jonas> it jsut gives them a reasonable default about which characters are identifier start chars and which ones are identifier continue chars, and libraries provide an implementation with that,
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10:23:27 <wob_jonas> and since that sort of thing is easy to mess up, and you need it on your computer anyway for stuff like parsing xml, it's often best to use it
10:24:04 <shachaf> I would be much happier if my computer never parsed any XML.
10:24:04 <wob_jonas> of course some languages modify the rules, like allowing hyphens, allowing apostrophes, reserving some keywords or reserving some forms of identifiers for library macros, etc
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10:24:41 <wob_jonas> shachaf: I don't like XML, but there are lots of existing data available as an XML that I want to parse because I want the contained data
10:25:08 <wob_jonas> and yes, some languages count uppercase and lowercase identifiers differently
10:27:40 <int-e> what is OpenCL's excuse for not having something like http://paste.debian.net/1085993/ ;-) (or did I miss it...)
10:29:00 <shachaf> int-e: what is c's excuse for not having that
10:29:09 <wob_jonas> There's a certain kind of esolang of which I'd like to know if it exists, and if not, whether it's possible to make it. I'll probably think more about whether it's possible, but let me ask about it because someone else might already know about it.
10:29:34 <int-e> shachaf: Well, Posix has strerror at least.
10:29:44 <wob_jonas> The esolang I'd want is a sort of djinn esolang, a functional language where you never write function bodies, but only the types of functions you define, plus data type definitions.
10:29:51 <shachaf> By the way, I have a C macro I couldn't figure out how to make fake-varargs
10:30:19 <wob_jonas> The compiler then derives the body of each function, where what the body can contain is seriously constrained by langauge rules.
10:30:29 <shachaf> #define ShowEnumVal3(val, e1, e2, e3) ((val) == (e1) ? #e1 : (val) == (e2) ? #e2 : (val) == (e3) ? #e3 : "UNKNOWN")
10:30:36 <shachaf> I have one of those for every k up to 8.
10:30:50 <int-e> (I mean, ideally each of these errors should come with a human readable description...)
10:30:58 <shachaf> But the usual cpp foreach trickery doesn't work here.
10:31:02 <wob_jonas> Only I want it to be elegant too, which includes that adding new declarations can make the program invalid because of ambiguity, but mustn't make the program valid but with a different meaning;
10:31:17 <wob_jonas> and obviously I also want the language to be powerful enough to express any program.
10:31:29 <wob_jonas> Does an esolang like this already exist?
10:32:53 <shachaf> This is used as e.g. «char *name = ShowEnumVal3(e.xmapping.request, MappingModifier, MappingKeyboard, MappingPointer);»
10:33:17 <shachaf> I think what I need is a real macro system instead of string substitution.
10:34:03 <int-e> shachaf: also, annoyingly, those values are not defined in an enum, so your macro wouldn't even help
10:34:23 <shachaf> My macro doesn't rely on enums.
10:34:35 <shachaf> (In fact most uses of it are for #defines.)
10:34:49 <shachaf> (Which is why the usual trick doesn't work.)
10:35:55 <int-e> Oh, so it does work... Hmm. Where did I go wrong earlier...
10:36:14 <shachaf> Can you believe that in the year 2019 people still write #define str(x) str2(x) and #define str2(x) #x ?
10:37:27 <shachaf> I posted my fmt macro in here, right?
10:37:48 <int-e> How bad of an idiom is sizeof(err)/sizeof(*err) ?
10:37:51 <wob_jonas> shachaf: no of course not. we don't define such things, we include hundred megabyte large libraries to get such a macro with a long prefixed name instead.
10:38:33 <shachaf> I have a numof() macro that checks that the type of the argument is array rather than pointer.
10:38:45 <int-e> wheels have been reinvented numerous times
10:38:50 <int-e> and that's a good thing
10:38:59 <shachaf> The check only works with gcc/clang but the macro can fall back to the standard behavior.
10:39:16 <wob_jonas> shachaf: #define str BOOST_PP_STRINGIZE
10:41:08 <wob_jonas> there's probably one smewhere in the P99 library too
10:42:50 <wob_jonas> or the G_STRINGIFY macro from glib
10:43:08 <wob_jonas> see, there's no need to define yet another one
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10:43:33 <shachaf> The point is not the overhead of defining it.
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10:44:41 <wob_jonas> incidentally, do I understand it correctly that the "g" in the name of "glib" comes from "gtk" and that comes from "gimp" and that comes from "gnu"?
10:45:01 <wob_jonas> I think "gtk" originally stood for "gimp toolkit"
10:45:16 <wob_jonas> and "gimp" stands for "GNU image manipulation program"
10:45:25 <wob_jonas> but I don't really know where the "glib" name comes from
10:46:47 <shachaf> glib stands for glib library
10:46:51 <shachaf> and gtk stands for gtk toolkit
10:47:01 <shachaf> g never stands for anything
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10:50:08 <esowiki> [[Talk:EnScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63055&oldid=63052 * A * (+994) Specify
10:50:28 <esowiki> [[Talk:EnScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63056&oldid=63055 * A * (+4) /* The ENC Command */ : Cosmetics
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10:55:55 <esowiki> [[Talk:EnScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63057&oldid=63056 * A * (+479) /* The ENC Command */
10:58:20 <esowiki> [[Talk:EnScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63058&oldid=63057 * A * (+263) /* The ENC Command */
10:59:29 <esowiki> [[Talk:EnScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63059&oldid=63058 * A * (+62) /* The ENC Command */
10:59:58 <esowiki> [[Talk:EnScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63060&oldid=63059 * A * (-1) /* The ENC Command */ Bad English
11:00:51 <Taneb> GPS stands for GPS positioning system
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11:01:49 <HackEso> galaxy gamemanj gaspacho gaspasjo gaspatsjo gaszpacho gazpacho gazspaczo gblh gene ray gentlebeing gey ghci ghoti ghoul ginorst glados glass glogbot glumgot gnimmargorp go goat god's number golf gonad goofix google gopher gostak grace period graham's number grammar gray greater gregor grimmargorp ground water group grue guarantee guillible
11:02:21 <shachaf> y'all went overboard with the gajpako
11:02:23 <esowiki> [[Talk:EnScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63061&oldid=63060 * A * (+334) /* The CHS Command */
11:02:26 <HackEso> Gray is e common misspalling of grey.
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11:02:51 <HackEso> A guillible person is someone who can be fooled with a Scheme script.
11:02:56 <esowiki> [[Talk:EnScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63062&oldid=63061 * A * (+73) /* The CHS Command */ Add
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11:03:14 <HackEso> God's number is the maximum number of moves a Rubik's cube can require to solve. It is equal to 20. No, really. Look it up.
11:03:42 <HackEso> 8411:2016-06-08 <hppavilion[1̈]> le/rn God\'s Number/God\'s number is the maximum number of moves a Rubik\'s cube can require to solve. It is equal to 20. No, really. Look it up.
11:03:53 <HackEso> A greater than sign instructs the shell to send the output of the command to a file. Not very mnemonic, but a grater is the closest thing to a file that ASCII has.
11:04:17 <HackEso> Go is a common irregular verbal game programming language invented by the Germanic Taneb tribes catching monsters in the strategic territories of East Asia.
11:04:28 <shachaf> the pen is greater than the sword
11:04:42 <HackEso> I know nothing about Gey, sir.
11:04:57 <shachaf> Taneb: Do you like digital signal processing?
11:05:05 <Taneb> Not hugely, I'm afraid
11:05:14 <Taneb> Although I haven't done it much
11:05:27 <shachaf> I agree with you, analog signal processing is better.
11:05:37 <shachaf> Do you like garbage collectors?
11:05:50 <shachaf> gc stands for gc collector presumably
11:06:17 <Taneb> No, they didn't collect my landfill garbage properly the other week, they left half of it in the wheelie bin
11:07:00 <esowiki> [[Talk:EnScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63063&oldid=63062 * A * (+144) /* The ENC Command */ Add
11:07:05 <shachaf> you do wheelies with bins?
11:07:25 <shachaf> most people use bicycles or motorcycles
11:10:06 <esowiki> [[Talk:EnScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63064&oldid=63063 * A * (-5)
11:14:17 <wob_jonas> shachaf: except for tom7 of course
11:14:44 <esowiki> [[EnScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63065&oldid=63048 * A * (+44) /* ENC */ That is impossible
11:19:41 <esowiki> [[Collide]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=63066 * A * (+177) Created page with "[[Collide]] is an [[esoteric programming language]] that features balls inside a sandbox that maps its edges. [[Category:Languages]] [[Category:2019]] [[Category:Unimplemented]]"
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11:23:50 <esowiki> [[Collide]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63067&oldid=63066 * A * (+435) Example program
11:31:54 <esowiki> [[Collide]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63068&oldid=63067 * A * (+393) /* Example source code (this is not yet documented) */
11:33:15 <esowiki> [[Collide]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63069&oldid=63068 * A * (+115) /* Partial syntax */
11:33:26 <esowiki> [[Collide]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63070&oldid=63069 * A * (-8) /* Partial syntax */
11:34:40 <esowiki> [[Collide]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63071&oldid=63070 * A * (+305) /* Syntax */
11:35:02 <esowiki> [[Collide]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63072&oldid=63071 * A * (+1) /* Example source code (this is not yet documented) */
11:36:40 <esowiki> [[Collide]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63073&oldid=63072 * A * (+188) /* Syntax */
11:37:33 <esowiki> [[Collide]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63074&oldid=63073 * A * (+85) /* Syntax */
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12:03:23 <esowiki> [[Talk:EnScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63075&oldid=63064 * JonoCode9374 * (+220) /* The ENC Command */
12:20:14 <int-e> @let import GHC.Fingerprint
12:21:07 <int-e> > map fingerprintString ["T\153831\150310\131091\149266\154351\131093\131072\131072\131072","T\143618\144507\156283\135458\133470\131097\131072\131072\131072"]
12:21:10 <lambdabot> [7afb892b07b256865b1116e31478f2bf,7afb892b07b256865b11353481ce648e]
12:21:21 <int-e> shachaf: ^^ 80 bit collision
12:36:44 <int-e> Now crunching a 96 bit collision at 5GH/s. So it'll be a while, but should finish within a day.
12:37:51 <wob_jonas> int-e: are you just using a dumb birthday attack, or something specific about md5?
12:39:23 <wob_jonas> dumb birthday attack, according to those numbers
12:47:59 <int-e> wob_jonas: I'm doing the dumb birthday attack indeed
12:48:19 <int-e> wob_jonas: and I know that it's (almost) impractical to scale it up to a full collision.
12:49:03 <int-e> But it's unclear how to apply the differential paths based techniques when about half of the bits of the input are fixed.
12:54:07 <wob_jonas> int-e: ok. are you using those optimized cycle-based methods that let you get away with much less than a table of 2**48 hashes?
12:54:51 <wob_jonas> I found those quite interesting, and because you don't have enough RAM for 2**48 entries, but may have enough for a smaller table, it could be faster too
12:55:11 <int-e> hmm, not really cycle based... but based on distinguished elements (the rainbow table trick)
12:55:36 <wob_jonas> not cycle based, but computing deterministic chains that you can reproduce
12:56:04 <wob_jonas> and once you find two chains intersecting, you can compute them again from an earlier stage to find the first collision,
12:56:07 <int-e> 2^48/2^30 is what I'm aiming for.
12:56:41 <int-e> which is probably not the best memory/time trade-off for my hardware, but who cares.
12:57:08 <int-e> I'm only storing hashes with the 30 lowest bits zero.
12:57:18 <wob_jonas> yeah, that may be too strong, but whatever
12:57:43 <int-e> it fits my naive approach... I'm not actually storing those in memory but in a file, because I'm lazy.
12:57:43 <wob_jonas> that means you have to recompute a 2^30 long chain. how fast can you do that, since you don't have parallelism then?
12:58:10 <wob_jonas> storing them in a file is fine because the OS can cache the file in RAM
12:58:35 <wob_jonas> the point is not to have such a large database to have to spin the disk up for every access
12:59:59 <int-e> it'll take a couple of minutes
13:00:29 <int-e> on the CPU I get about 10MH/s sequentially.
13:01:35 <int-e> (with plain C code)
13:02:34 <int-e> wob_jonas: I'm storing them in a text file... so sort | uniq works ;-)
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13:10:40 <wob_jonas> int-e: so what was the context for this? why did you want haskell identifiers and md5 in particular? is it md5 because of git?
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13:16:28 <wob_jonas> > map (\s -> map ord) ["T\153831\150310\131091\149266\154351\131093\131072\131072\131072","T\143618\144507\156283\135458\133470\131097\131072\131072\131072"]
13:16:30 <lambdabot> [<[Char] -> [Int]>,<[Char] -> [Int]>]
13:16:48 <wob_jonas> > map (\s -> map ord s) ["T\153831\150310\131091\149266\154351\131093\131072\131072\131072","T\143618\144507\156283\135458\133470\131097\131072\131072\131072"]
13:16:50 <lambdabot> [[84,153831,150310,131091,149266,154351,131093,131072,131072,131072],[84,143...
13:17:19 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at character '%'
13:17:31 <int-e> that was the wrong magic character.
13:17:42 <wob_jonas> no, I just wanted to decode those strings you typed
13:17:55 <int-e> > text "T\153831\150310\131091\149266\154351\131093\131072\131072\131072"
13:17:58 <wob_jonas> because I didn't remember the haskell syntax
13:18:17 <wob_jonas> um, I don't much care about the particular kanji, more like the code points
13:19:11 <int-e> I used printf("\"%c\\%d\\%d\\%d\\%d\\%d\\%d\\%d\\%d\\%d\"\n", to generate those strings ;-)
13:21:04 <int-e> wob_jonas: the context is GHC.
13:22:07 <int-e> A collision would break the type safety of Data.Typeable.
13:22:14 <wob_jonas> their digests don't seem to match for me, how do you encode them?
13:22:40 <int-e> as big endian 32 bit unicode points.
13:22:46 <wob_jonas> I tried utf-8, utf-16be, and utf16-le
13:23:22 <wob_jonas> so that's why you said that almost half of the bits were fixed
13:25:07 <wob_jonas> yeah, I can reproduce that, the first 10 bytes of the digest match
13:25:45 <wob_jonas> and you'd need a full 128 bit collision to break Typeable?
13:26:03 <wob_jonas> and you can use just identifiers with no prefix, not even a package name?
13:26:51 <wob_jonas> it would seem strange if it didn't use a package name
13:27:06 <Taneb> (would it also have to be two valid identifiers?)
13:27:07 <int-e> yeah the package, module, and type name are hashed separately, then combined.
13:27:22 <int-e> fingerprintTyCon tc =
13:27:22 <int-e> fingerprintFingerprints [
13:27:22 <int-e> fingerprintString (tyConPackage tc),
13:27:22 <int-e> fingerprintString (tyConModule tc),
13:27:22 <int-e> fingerprintString (tyConName tc)
13:27:28 <wob_jonas> Taneb: these are valid identifiers
13:27:54 <int-e> @let data T𥣧𤬦𠀓𤜒𥫯𠀕𠀀𠀀𠀀 = T𥣧𤬦𠀓𤜒𥫯𠀕𠀀𠀀𠀀
13:29:47 <int-e> The "valid identifier" restriction is also the reason for that "T", because more precisely, it has to be a valid constructor name
13:30:07 <int-e> and there are no upper case kanjis, somehow :)
13:31:27 <wob_jonas> I was wondering if this is perhaps solved by the internet somehow, but apparently no sane people hash utf-32 strings
13:31:39 <wob_jonas> utf-8 strings, sure, you can find collisions with a google search
13:32:01 <wob_jonas> https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/issues/7634
13:34:59 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63076&oldid=62864 * A * (+188) /* Write some nonsense here */ Nonsense
13:36:48 <wob_jonas> int-e: that ticket tells the hashing works differently though: it seems to think that the package name, module name, and typename are combined before they're md5-hashed
13:38:40 <int-e> I don't know when exactly, whether it was ghc-8.0 or ghc-8.2. We have ghc-8.8 now.
13:48:03 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63077&oldid=62865 * A * (+310) /* List of candidates */ Add a lot of info
13:50:48 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63078&oldid=63076 * A * (+193) Add some nonsense(just for fun)
13:53:24 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63079&oldid=63078 * A * (+15)
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14:22:45 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63080&oldid=62948 * A * (+93) /* References */
14:52:39 <arseniiv> are ε and ℩ interdefinable? εxA = «an x such that A, if it exists (or some garbage if it doesn’t, and terms aren’t allowed to be undefined)», ℩xA = «the only x such that A (or likewise blah blah)»
14:53:46 <arseniiv> they say ∀ and ∃ are definable through any of them, though ε is in some sense more powerful; and I don’t remember about ℩
14:55:07 <arseniiv> for ε, ∃xA ≡ A[εxA / x] and ∀xA ≡ A[εx(¬A) / x]
14:58:21 <arseniiv> I’m suddenly into formal semantics of natural languages
15:02:05 <arseniiv> for example, I think the section [1] is somewhat garbage-y, and I sympathize with the text at [2], but I don’t know what level the unambiguous translation mentioned there should be, and ever at least what it should look like
15:02:06 <arseniiv> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_dicto_and_de_re#Representing_de_dicto_and_de_re_in_modal_logic
15:02:06 <arseniiv> [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_descriptions#Saul_Kripke
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15:19:57 <arseniiv> also, regarding formulas in [1], I’m not only worried they miss the point, I’m also don’t quite get what should be meant by a formula □A with free variables. So I’ve read about approaches to first-order modal logics and now I’m still unsure ∃x□A is sensible
15:25:07 <arseniiv> about [1], I’ve come to think the difference shouldn’t be forced to be expressed free of speech context and that the focus is not a different translation of the syntax per se, but a different denotation of a phrase (designator, is it?) in question. In de dicto case, it isn’t bound to something in context, and in de re case, it is but a name of a thing from the context, its identity established ear
15:26:50 <wob_jonas> fungot, are you forced to expressed free of context speech and that the focus is not a different translation of syntax per se?
15:26:51 <fungot> wob_jonas: social contract. i think he will agree with fnord of common sense reasons? no; the question is, whether for war or trade; when i bring before my view the number of men in power, he holds his crown in contempt of the opinion of the intellectual eye which gives us to contemplate the fall of wise ministers and of the purity and integrity of the empire, and who serves to carry on with vigour the work of his successor, an
15:30:11 <arseniiv> so maybe it is just a plain restatement of what is already known about this phenomenon—maybe in not so different fashion, either—but I do think it shouldn’t match something too low-level. There IS speech context, and it IS being used to disambiguate the cases, so it makes sense this situation should be formalized using a formalization of this context, and not some clever transposition of ∃x and □ (or I just hope that entry is
15:30:11 <arseniiv> an unqualified one by someone who understands even less than me)
15:30:41 <fungot> arseniiv: vii. second reading of the bill which concerns my trade. i will only observe, in reference to this sphere of legislative action, with stars on his shoulders and his fnord is embittered into acrimony, strength fnord into fnord, or brissot, or fnord conventional messenger from the clouds, to firm ground and clear light. let us imitate him. our countrymen have always, even in that fugitive span he may either do some good
15:35:18 <wob_jonas> https://esolangs.org/logs/2019-06-01.html#lUb "<xylochoron[m]> do you other people know enough about category theory to follow what this person's trying to do cuz i don't but it sounds interesting oh well"
15:36:28 <wob_jonas> I was wondering if I should tell xylochoron[m] that if he hangs out enough on this channel, not only will he understand the category theoretic formulation, but he'll find it natural and find the more elementary phrasings of those problems unnecessarily cumbersome, but frankly I don't understand what you guys are talking about either
15:36:30 <Taneb> I sit with a copy of Categories for the Working Mathematician on my desk. I should probably read it more
15:50:39 <arseniiv> fungot: how do you think are deontological self-actualization and ontological self-deactualization dual?
15:50:39 <fungot> arseniiv: this great work at once became fnord which everybody still knows by fnord these chiefly lay the oratorical power both of chatham and of mirabeau. there have been famous orators whose speeches we may read for the beauty of the garden, the nurture of all living things.
15:55:51 <arseniiv> re tswett[m] discussion: presentations of categories with finite limits, is it really that simple? I should look into that someday!
15:57:28 <arseniiv> though a presentation could turn out an elaborate and complex thing which is hard to understand
15:59:00 <tswett[m]> arseniiv: You can do a ton with just presentations of categories with finite limits.
15:59:09 <tswett[m]> They're... not particularly simple.
15:59:12 <arseniiv> (…as it is with group presentations, it really really is no doubt)
15:59:20 <tswett[m]> But they're much simpler than, say, Lua.
15:59:51 <tswett[m]> But they're much simpler than, say, Lua.
16:00:07 <tswett[m]> In particular, pretty much any kind of algebraic object can be defined by giving a presentation of a category with finite limits.
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16:00:26 <arseniiv> <tswett[m]> But they're much simpler than, say, Lua. => ah, then you got me
16:00:57 <tswett[m]> Including—and this is the fun part—categories with finite limits.
16:01:53 <tswett[m]> Well, I shouldn't say "pretty much any kind", but you can define monoids, groups, categories, rings...
16:02:39 <arseniiv> are fields undefinable because of 1 ≠ 0 constraint? I think I heard something in that regard maybe
16:03:37 <tswett[m]> That, and the fact that division is defined everywhere except 0.
16:03:58 <tswett[m]> Now, you can define a concept that's *almost* the concept of a topos.
16:04:24 <arseniiv> tswett[m]: hm also do these presentations come with a nice internal language or what it’s called?
16:05:07 <tswett[m]> The difference is that in the definition of a topos, the word "monomorphism" is replaced with "M-morphism", where an "M-morphism" is a morphism satisfying an undefined predicate. You can assert that all M-morphisms are monomorphisms, but you cannot assert that all monomorphisms are M-morphisms.
16:06:10 <tswett[m]> Though the internal language is missing coproducts (sum types) and the initial object (the empty type).
16:06:36 <tswett[m]> Not to mention exponentials (function types).
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16:51:12 <int-e> > map fingerprintString ["T\132596\149647\150416\152631\158821\150114\131116\131072\131072","T\140399\149685\144161\143085\148849\152119\131204\131072\131072"] -- <-- shachaf, wob_jonas: I got quite lucky. GPU time: 4h, CPU time: 20m
16:51:15 <lambdabot> [9317f8f6f091ac50e1f49feb057f3098,9317f8f6f091ac50e1f49febea88f23a]
16:52:19 <int-e> (Expected GPU time was around 15h.)
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17:28:47 <esowiki> [[Talk:Pointless]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=63081 * Ais523 * (+513) the pointer instructions aren't useful because the cell values are limited
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17:53:48 <esowiki> [[Talk:Pointless]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63082&oldid=63081 * Int-e * (+462) translate from Smallfuck
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19:57:37 <int-e> shachaf: the best thing is that the md5 implementation can be shared between OpenCL and C. https://github.com/int-e/opencl-playground/blob/master/md5_impl.h ...
19:59:02 <int-e> (It appears that the OpenCL compiler takes care of vectorizing that thing, which keeps the code plain and simple.)
20:00:09 <rain1> wow an md5 hash collision!
20:00:24 <int-e> rain1: only 96 bits
20:01:13 <int-e> I don't want to wait nor pay for ~2^64 md5 hashes :) 2^48 was just fine though.
20:01:48 <int-e> Especially since I got away with just 2^46 of them...
20:04:23 <int-e> So 1/4 sqrt(N)... which suffices only 3% of the time, I think...
20:04:49 <int-e> > 1 - exp(-(1/4)^2/2) -- should be close
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20:45:43 <arseniiv> for something completely different, maybe someone remembers when I mused about a Metamath-like system (metavariables! disjointness constraints!) with solid syntax soundness base (terms with more or less simple types, basically an enriched λ-calculus where this λ core is used solely for representing substitutions, and application to user-defined term constructors is intentionally not core λ-term application), so one can then define t
20:45:43 <arseniiv> he language and the rules and the system would check if some proof is correct, including of course checking typeability of all terms
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20:53:49 <arseniiv> then I needed an algorithm to check it there is a substitution σ such that A ≡ Bσ for given terms A, B with FV(A) ∩ FV(B) = ∅, and is there a unique smallest σ (how do they call such σ?)
20:53:49 <arseniiv> and I was sad to find I don’t know how to check it in case B ≡ CD (λ application here), as I have thought it’s sensible to think (λx. z = x)y equivalent—for this system—to y = x: and now how can I decide how many β-reductions there could be in that CD term before it would be mapped by σ to A?
20:53:49 <arseniiv> so I was stuck and left the thing alone and one day had an idea to make reductions a core inference rule for users to mention explicitly. It would not be a smooth UX, but at least I could write the thing and see if it’s any good at all. And then I forgot, and remembered only a hour ago
20:54:06 <arseniiv> maybe it would be clearer to give an example:
20:55:40 <arseniiv> ↑ this isn’t well-prepared, it should be un-β-reduced explicitly by the user to
20:55:40 <arseniiv> Given′: x = y ∧ (z.z = x)[x] → (z.z = x)[y]
20:55:40 <arseniiv> then the system could show easily that Given′ ≡ Axiom[x/X, y/Y, z.z = x/Φ] without the need to decide when exactly (x = x, x = y) ≡ (Φ[X], Φ[Y])σ and is there a unique smallest σ at all
20:59:47 <arseniiv> so maybe I’m just dumb and there is no need to test someone’s patience in writing extra things like Given’ and one could write a unifier for a general case A = (CD)σ and not fall into depths of e. g. nontermination (I hope, as all terms should be typeable, could it be enough to simplify things?..)
21:00:56 <arseniiv> oh, I forgot to make my syntax less obscure again
21:02:01 <arseniiv> in the example, X, Y, Φ, x, y, z are metavariables, =, ∧ and → are user-defined term constructors, Φ[X] is ΦX and (z.z = x) is (λz. z = x)
21:02:48 <arseniiv> very fortunately, this example doesn’t mention disjointness constraints
21:04:38 <arseniiv> they can be part of the rules and proofs, as a type of premise (other type of premises is terms, and rule conclusion can be only a term too)
21:08:57 <int-e> > let f = 85375/2^18 in 1 - exp (f^2/2)
21:09:04 <int-e> > let f = 85375/2^18 in 1 - exp (-f^2/2)
21:10:25 <int-e> 5% is still quite lucky :)
21:11:44 <shachaf> you really squandered your luck there hth
21:14:08 <int-e> Nah, I don't believe in luck being used up.
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21:32:39 <int-e> "IntelliCode uses open source GitHub projects with 100 stars or more to generate recommendations for your code."
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21:33:10 <int-e> . o O ( What could possibly go wrong... )
21:33:22 <int-e> . o O ( This may also explain why MS bought github? )
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21:41:05 <int-e> Ironically I have learned little about OpenCL... no out-of-order execution, no fancy atomic operations or shared CPU/GPU memory, no subtle memory model (yes, there is a memory model...) interactions, no pipes, no kernels spawning kernels on the OpenCL side, and no interaction with OpenGL.
21:41:52 <b_jonas> int-e: well sure, you just want to compute a lot of md5 checksums, surely that's something someone else has already coded, so you don't need to write any of the parallel code
21:41:58 <b_jonas> you only need the driver that chooses the strings etc
21:42:17 <int-e> (Instead I have a fairly long-running kernel so that the overhead of communicating with the CPU is negligible anyway. And each work item works on a couple of hundred bytes of data, all completely local.)
21:42:26 <b_jonas> I mean sure, that has to run in the gpu too
21:42:30 <b_jonas> but it's not very complicated
21:42:52 <shachaf> yes, int-e, didn't you notice the thing where instead of doing any programing you just downloaded and ran someone else's program
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21:43:14 <int-e> b_jonas: hashcat has an md5 implementation... but it seems to be specially tuned for password cracking, which surprisingly allows a few small shortcuts.
21:43:15 <shachaf> that's the reason you didn't learn anything
21:43:58 <int-e> shachaf: condescension: 10, helpfulness: 0.
21:44:20 <shachaf> i was just making a joke about how the thing b_jonas said made no sense :'(
21:44:35 <int-e> (hashcat reports 11.5MH/s in its benchmark mode on the same GPU, so I thought my 5.something was decent.)
21:44:39 <b_jonas> while generally I think GPU programming is overhyped these days (partly because "blockchain" and "deep learning" are fashionable ways to sell anything), but this is exactly the sort of thing where GPU is useful
21:44:54 <int-e> shachaf: ah, I didn't connect it to that context.
21:45:05 <int-e> . o O ( communication 1 : int-e 0. )
21:45:17 <shachaf> since obviously you did write a program so the fact that other people have written md5 implementations is irrelevant
21:46:47 <int-e> shachaf: Obviously I still had to do some basic stuff. create an OpenCL context, a command queue, a buffer, a program, a kernel... it's just that there's so much more that I didn't touch at all.
21:48:19 <shachaf> Doing the rho thing with distinguished points is presumably a little different from trying to find preimages.
21:49:17 <int-e> hashcat exploits the fact that when enumerating passwords, only a small part of the message changes... so the first half dozen values can be precomputed and never change while iterating over the last one or two chracters.
21:49:55 <shachaf> I imagine that only saves a small amount of work?
21:50:01 <int-e> And IIRC it has a trick for stopping early too. I forgot.
21:50:23 <int-e> well saving 10 out of 64 rounds (or even 5) is still a speedup.
21:50:56 <shachaf> You can compute 10 rounds without the last one or two characters?
21:51:43 <int-e> I think it was about 4 at the beginning and 4 in the end. Let me check something
21:55:29 <int-e> There's stuff like this: If you only change the 3rd word of the message in your search, then you know the message words for the last 10 rounds. And I think you can actually invert those then.
21:56:49 <int-e> (look at this: A = B + rotl(R(B, C, D) + A + K + m[j], s) -- you know the resulting A, and B,C,D,K and m[j]. So you do rotr(A - B, s) - K - m[j] - R(B,C,D)) to find the previous A.
21:57:49 <int-e> And, uh, why don't we do that with the first word... then we can reverse the last 15 rounds.
21:59:38 <int-e> > maximum [(elemIndex i [0..15] + elemIndex i (reverse [0,7,14,5,12,3,10,1,8,15,6,13,4,11,2,9]), i) | i <- [0..15]]
21:59:40 <lambdabot> • Could not deduce (Num (Maybe Int)) arising from a use of ‘+’
21:59:40 <lambdabot> from the context: (Num b, Enum b, Ord b)
22:00:19 <int-e> > maximum [(fromJust (elemIndex i [0..15]) + fromJust (elemIndex i (reverse [0,7,14,5,12,3,10,1,8,15,6,13,4,11,2,9])), i) | i <- [0..15]]
22:00:53 <int-e> > reverse $ sort [(fromJust (elemIndex i [0..15]) + fromJust (elemIndex i (reverse [0,7,14,5,12,3,10,1,8,15,6,13,4,11,2,9])), i) | i <- [0..15]]
22:00:56 <lambdabot> [(27,14),(23,12),(21,15),(21,7),(19,10),(17,13),(17,5),(15,8),(15,0),(13,11)...
22:02:46 <int-e> So for the password cracking application, it's the last 15 rounds that you can reasonably expect to skip. The better indices are a tad too large.
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22:10:45 <int-e> and you can skip 3 more rounds if you only verify 32 bits instead of all the 128 bits.
22:12:52 <int-e> what else is there... for password cracking you tend to have a lot of message words that are known to be 0. That should also yield a minor but noticable improvement.
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22:39:37 <int-e> A pencil is an abridged antibiotic.
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22:40:21 <int-e> (I guess it works by stabbing bacteria.)
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00:00:59 <tswett[m]> > let eea _ xa xb 0 _ _ = (xa, xb); eea x xa xb y ya yb = (let s = x `mod` y in eea y ya yb (y - s * x, ya - s * xa, yb - s * xb) in eea 314 1 0 100 0 1
00:01:01 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:129: error: parse error on input ‘in’
00:01:20 <tswett[m]> > let eea _ xa xb 0 _ _ = (xa, xb); eea x xa xb y ya yb = (let s = x `mod` y in eea y ya yb (y - s * x, ya - s * xa, yb - s * xb)) in eea 314 1 0 100 0 1
00:01:22 <lambdabot> • Couldn't match type ‘c -> c -> (c, c)’ with ‘(c, c)’
00:01:22 <lambdabot> Expected type: c -> c -> c -> (c, c, c) -> (c, c)
00:01:49 <tswett[m]> > let eea _ xa xb 0 _ _ = (xa, xb); eea x xa xb y ya yb = (let s = x `mod` y in eea y ya yb (y - s * x) (ya - s * xa) (yb - s * xb)) in eea 314 1 0 100 0 1
00:03:48 <tswett[m]> > let eGCD 0 b = (b, 0, 1); eGCD a b = (let (g, s, t) = eGCD (b `mod` a) a in (g, t - (b `div` a) * s, s)) in eGCD 314 100
00:05:06 <tswett[m]> > let eGCD (_, 0, b) = (b, 0, 1); eGCD (_, a, b) = (let (g, s, t) = eGCD (undefined, (b `mod` a), a) in (g, t - (b `div` a) * s, s)) in iterate eGCD (undefined, 314, 100)
00:05:23 <tswett[m]> > let eGCD (_, 0, b) = (b, 0, 1); eGCD (_, a, b) = (let (g, s, t) = eGCD (undefined, (b `mod` a), a) in (g, t - (b `div` a) * s, s)) in iterate eGCD (123456789, 314, 100)
00:05:26 <lambdabot> [(123456789,314,100),(2,-7,22),(-1,-3,-1),(-1,0,1),(1,0,1),(1,0,1),(1,0,1),(...
00:06:10 <tswett[m]> I conclude that 314/100 is approximately 22/7.
00:08:41 <int-e> tswett[m]: you seem to be an approximately rational person
00:09:14 <shachaf> Can you name a number that is not approximately another number?
00:12:56 <int-e> shachaf: let's be discrete...
00:13:25 <int-e> But I guess you'll say that 42 is approximately 0.
00:15:22 <shachaf> I wasn't making any claims.
00:15:45 <shachaf> But I suppose that, for example, an infinite hyperreal isn't approximately equal to any finite number.
00:17:05 <int-e> I did consider mentioning \omega. But then that's approximately \omega + 1, if we allowed 0 to be approximately 1.
00:18:56 <int-e> OTOH hyperreals give you better-than-rational approximations.
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00:28:56 <zhiayang> hello, not entirely sure if this fits, but: say i'm targeting a limited stack vm as a backend for a compiler, and the vm only has the constants 0-9 (so to get 20 i'd need 4 5 *). so, how do i do relocations, given that the "size" of each relocation is not fixed?
00:30:03 <kmc> perhaps something like this https://www.sifive.com/blog/all-aboard-part-3-linker-relaxation-in-riscv-toolchain
00:31:18 <shachaf> int-e: Oh, well, I meant "do there exist x,y such that x is not approximately y"
00:31:30 <shachaf> Not "does there exist x such that for all y, x is not approximately y"
00:33:42 <zhiayang> kmc: hm, the thing is most of these places have an "upper bound" for the address/offset
00:33:50 <zhiayang> like i can 100% say it will either be 32-bits or less
00:34:25 <zhiayang> whereas if my offset happens to be some prime number or something, the number of instructions i need to generate it might be unpredictably large
00:34:32 <zhiayang> so it's hard to reserve a set amount of space for it
00:35:43 <shachaf> I was reading about fancy assemblers that try to optimize the number of bytes used for jump instructions.
00:35:51 <shachaf> In some cases you need a lot of passes.
00:36:12 <kmc> zhiayang: you can set a maximum, and anything bigger gets turned into a function call to a function created by the linker
00:36:33 <shachaf> Don't functions have the same issue?
00:36:46 <shachaf> I guess the linker could place them at a particular place.
00:36:59 <kmc> or depending on your memory instructions you could place them in a data section http://www.keil.com/support/man/docs/armasm/armasm_dom1359731147760.htm
00:37:10 <shachaf> You could maybe have some nops around jump targets, which gives you more leeway in avoiding prime numbers.
00:37:11 <zhiayang> ah, there's nothing as fancy as a linker here, tbh
00:37:23 <zhiayang> i'm currently going from IR -> vm opcodes
00:39:17 <shachaf> ahttps://board.flatassembler.net/topic.php?t=20249 is the post I was thinking of.
00:39:35 <shachaf> Not really relevant to you.
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00:44:25 <zhiayang> also, to read from the data section would require the same kind of shennanigans, so i don't think it might be useful
00:44:45 <zhiayang> i might just set an upper limit of 32 and complain if it's exceeded
00:47:15 <shachaf> kmc: did you ever see http://slbkbs.org/serp.html
00:47:50 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63083&oldid=62922 * Aquirel * (+114)
00:51:22 <shachaf> i guess browser people don't care
00:53:54 <esowiki> [[ABCR]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63084&oldid=50392 * Aquirel * (+237)
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01:15:14 <shachaf> ais523: https://secretgeek.github.io/html_wysiwyg/html.html is arguably different from the types of quines we talked about.
01:15:24 <shachaf> Though I think you can classify it as cheating.
01:18:32 <kmc> that's cute
01:18:34 <kmc> > The only other style that is special is "style" itself, which has to include an escape character to avoid being taken literally. I like to think that may be a parser bug created by browser developers who did not suspect that people would engage in such an atrocity.
01:18:36 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:55: error: parse error on input ‘,’
01:18:39 <kmc> it's not really a bug
01:18:43 <kmc> it's a consequence of nesting parsers
01:18:59 <kmc> or perhaps nesting tokenizers within parsers
01:19:01 <shachaf> I remember a capture the flag thing we both did that uesd that bug.
01:19:11 <shachaf> Though I think I used it and you used some other method.
01:19:24 <kmc> where you sneak a </script> inside a string in a <script> block?
01:19:32 <kmc> the web is so bad
01:19:38 <kmc> I could go on and on but you already know
01:21:59 <shachaf> kmc: i wrote a simple program in server-side javascript a few years ago and i have to npm it up when i want to use it
01:22:31 <shachaf> my new goal is to never interact with npm again
01:22:52 <shachaf> (which fortunately i wasn't using)
01:24:30 <adu> http://left-pad.io/
01:25:26 <kmc> shachaf: what about rust
01:25:45 <kmc> how long before the same kind of people finish ruining it
01:27:08 * adu <3 AlpineLinux
01:27:29 <kmc> risc-v is cool
01:27:44 <shachaf> kmc: you should watch the mill videos imo
01:27:57 <adu> I can't wait until I can run a rust cross compiler in alpine that compiles to riscv
01:28:27 <adu> riscv is how all processor design should be
01:29:07 <adu> 1) good, slow, thoughtful, extensible, etc.
01:29:16 <adu> 2) open, available, documented, etc.
01:30:16 <adu> none of this "AMD has decreed that the Intel arch is no longer 32-bit!"
01:30:59 <adu> AMD64, look it up
01:31:35 <shachaf> Modern amd64 chips can still run 32-bit x86 code.
01:31:56 <shachaf> Intel was the one that made an incompatible 64-bit architecture.
01:32:17 <adu> IA-64, IA-32, AMD-64, Intel-64, it's all a mess
01:32:37 <adu> it's almost as if it was designed by 12 companies
01:34:33 <kmc> shachaf: can you please shut up about the mill videos
01:34:46 <kmc> at least tell me something interesting about it rather than just nagging me over and over
01:40:16 <adu> shachaf: did they release yet?
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02:35:31 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63085&oldid=63083 * CraftSpider * (+242)
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02:46:53 <esowiki> [[Jungle]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63086&oldid=62733 * CraftSpider * (+0) Fix decrement code preview
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03:57:17 <esowiki> [[Talk:Pointless]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63087&oldid=63082 * A * (+221)
03:59:49 <esowiki> [[Collide]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63088&oldid=63074 * A * (+226) Add a characteristic
04:01:50 <esowiki> [[Pointless]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63089&oldid=63007 * A * (+116) /* Computational class */
04:02:58 <esowiki> [[EnScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63090&oldid=63065 * A * (+77)
04:05:03 <esowiki> [[EnScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63091&oldid=63090 * A * (+86) /* Examples */ Come and prove the computational class!
04:08:05 <esowiki> [[Pointless]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63092&oldid=63089 * A * (-28) /* Computational class */
04:09:46 <esowiki> [[Talk:Pointless]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63093&oldid=63087 * A * (+178)
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04:13:04 <A_> `?learn pretend pretend(v.) To pretend is to do something before others expect it to be done.
04:13:05 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ?learn: not found
04:15:36 <A_> `? learn pretend pretend(v.) To pretend is to do something before others expect it to be done.
04:15:38 <HackEso> learn pretend pretend(v.) To pretend is to do something before others expect it to be done.? ¯\(°_o)/¯
04:16:54 <A_> `? python -i "print"
04:16:56 <HackEso> python -i "print"? ¯\(°_o)/¯
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08:05:51 <b_jonas> zhiayang: couldn't you generate any integer constant using just two registers by writing it in bas 9?
08:06:20 <b_jonas> like, a_4+9*(a_3+9*(a_2+9*(a_1+9*a_0)))
08:06:35 <shachaf> b_jonas: The issue is the length of the code.
08:07:23 <myname> why would the base matter for the number of registers?
08:07:28 <b_jonas> shachaf: oh, you mean this is for jump offsets?
08:09:22 <b_jonas> anyway, yes, that complicates stuff, you might need an assembler that does two or more passes to determine the address of everything
08:09:37 <b_jonas> because it doesn't know first how long an instr sequence it needs to assemble a constant
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09:31:36 <wob_jonas> zhiayang: nah, I'm still here. this channel is logged and low-traffic so I read most of the logs.
09:32:49 <zhiayang> but yea the issue is for jump offsets, not quite relocations
09:48:40 <wob_jonas> zhiayang: we use a two-pass method for that even on mainstream cpus. x86_64 has conditional and unconditional branch instructions that have both short and long versions. the short versions take up two bytes and have a 8-bit signed jump offset; the long ones take 6 bytes and have a 32-bit jump offset.
09:49:32 <zhiayang> right, but in this case you know the maximum is 6 bytes
09:49:43 <wob_jonas> typical code has lots of short branch instructions, beacuse there are conditionals and loops with a small body, so it would be a waste never to use them. but to determine whether you can use a short jump, you have to know the code addresses, and to determine the code addresses, you have to know how long instrs are.
09:50:33 <wob_jonas> yeah, so what the assemblers or compilers actually do is to first compute a worst case assumption of code addresses in the compilation unit, assuming that each jump instr is 6 byte long,
09:51:31 <wob_jonas> then in the second pass, put a short jump if the distance fits in the signed 8 bit offset, and assign the real addresses that way, then fill out all the addresses that refer to code.
09:52:40 <wob_jonas> (actually the unconditional jump is 5 bytes long, only the conditional ones are 6 byte long)
09:55:01 <wob_jonas> (and then there's the odd LOOP instruction, but I don't know if compilers use that)
10:23:14 <esowiki> [[Talk:EnScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63094&oldid=63075 * A * (+161) /* The ENC Command */
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11:33:54 <esowiki> [[Talk:EnScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63095&oldid=63094 * JonoCode9374 * (+201) /* The ENC Command */
11:35:56 <esowiki> [[EnScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63096&oldid=63091 * A * (-77) An implementation will be easy...
11:58:46 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63097&oldid=62978 * A * (+147) /* Variants of deadfish */
12:00:47 <esowiki> [[Deadfish "self-interpreter"]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63098&oldid=63054 * A * (+162)
12:04:20 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63099&oldid=63097 * A * (+112) /* Deadfish */
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13:17:55 <wob_jonas> yeah, they didn't receive my email. what a good excuse.
13:18:31 <wob_jonas> this one is about a hard to get book that I'm trying to read through interlibrary loan
13:19:19 <wob_jonas> and they didn't get it for me when I requested it earlier because they didn't receive my request in email
13:19:31 <wob_jonas> I called them now in telephone and resent the mail, so they said they'll get it
13:43:34 <esowiki> [[Stack]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63100&oldid=46573 * A * (+76) /* Usage in esolangs */
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14:13:58 <arseniiv> how do you think, is CommonLisp’s format string language (used in `format` macro) esoteric?
14:14:54 <arseniiv> all those escape tildes surely are unusual at least
14:15:44 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: the more complicated parts of it might be, like the part where it defines a modifier to print the clock version of roman numerals
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14:19:37 <wob_jonas> and yeah, there are crazy conditionals and iteration, as if someone wanted to make a turing-complete language
14:20:05 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63101&oldid=63079 * A * (+572)
14:20:21 <wob_jonas> mind you, you could compare this to the format escapes in terminfo strings, those have even more complicated control stuff
14:20:37 <wob_jonas> has a whole stupid small virtual machine that can do general purpuse computations
14:21:30 <wob_jonas> despite that that gets mostly unused, because the actual logic you could put there is mostly done in the curses or similar terminal handler implementation
14:21:42 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63102&oldid=63101 * A * (-44) /* A simple concentrative language in 29 lines of code */
14:24:08 <arseniiv> <wob_jonas> and yeah, there are crazy conditionals and iteration, as if someone wanted to make a turing-complete language => my friend used them to format an internal list representation of backgammon moves to the standard one
14:24:41 <arseniiv> this is precisely why I asked :D
14:25:21 <wob_jonas> I think it was designed for quirky terminals that receive a number (eg. a column number) as a raw character code, but certain characters are not allowed because they're interpreted as a different control code, so the conditionals in the terminfo format code work around that
14:27:18 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63103&oldid=63102 * A * (+133) /* A simple concentrative language in 29 lines of code */
14:27:47 <wob_jonas> let me look up how those work actually
14:28:51 <wob_jonas> http://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man5/terminfo.5.html at "Parameterized Strings"
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16:09:38 <esowiki> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63104&oldid=57454 * Arseniiv * (+303) /* Syntax */ I forgot I was craving let expressions
16:10:04 <arseniiv> damn I used == in place of ===
16:10:42 <esowiki> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63105&oldid=63104 * Arseniiv * (+2) /* Let expressions */ subsubsectioned it
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19:31:58 <kmc> hello b_jonas
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19:43:43 <ais523> <adu> http://left-pad.io/ ← I actually reported a possible security bug in that (it was fixed)
19:44:37 <adu> I was mostly joking
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19:45:25 <ais523> <shachaf> ais523: https://secretgeek.github.io/html_wysiwyg/html.html is arguably different from the types of quines we talked about ← yes, I think that's a separate quining technique, it relies on a pretty specific evaluation order though, you need a language in which commands appearing anywhere in the program can globally and simultaneously redefine each other
19:45:55 <ais523> which is a pretty eso operation, come to think of it
19:46:31 <shachaf> I wonder what a Magic: The Gathering quine would be.
19:47:51 <ais523> that depends on how output works, and how you define what a program's source code is
19:48:17 <ais523> it's like asking what a quine is in one of those flowchart languages which are designed to control microcontrollers
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19:48:47 <ais523> the program is programmed in a GUI by dragging little rectangles and arrows and diamonds around, and the software it runs on outputs by toggling logic levels on wires
19:49:20 <shachaf> There are answers that involve encoding the output or something, but maybe there can be a more direct answer.
19:56:08 <b_jonas> oh, you mean the stupid _modern_ flowchart languages, not the ones used as pseudocode in old printed textbooks
19:57:35 <ais523> b_jonas: like the old printed textbook languages, except executable for some reason
19:57:54 <ais523> rather than pseudocode where you're allowed to be sloppy because the human readers can guess what you mean
19:58:55 <arseniiv> hm, are there known quines in Funciton?
20:01:47 <ais523> hmm, apparently not, there isn't one on CG&CC's huge list of quines
20:01:53 <ais523> and I'd expect there to be one there if there's one anywhere
20:02:07 <ais523> that is, unless either I or they misspelled the name of the language
20:04:38 <arseniiv> btw I was thinking about a source code realized as various cartesian-axes-aligned rectangles with rectangular holes, but no clever ideas how to interpret them; one specific operation would be joining of two rectangles in such a way it’s impossible to cut the result into two rectangles in different ways—so we could make something like sequencing of structures; holes may contain another rectangular blobs, and maybe it’s fine for the
20:04:38 <arseniiv> m to be joined from several rectangles too
20:05:21 <arseniiv> <ais523> that is, unless either I or they misspelled the name of the language => yeah, for some time I have thought it’s simply “Function”
20:07:10 <ais523> I'm normally quite good at picking up on intentional misspellings in esolang names, but then I've modded the esowiki for ages
20:08:21 <arseniiv> if someone would be bold enough to make something of those rectangles, I suggest naming the result Rectangel
20:10:09 <arseniiv> hm maybe they should have thick borders (in pseudographics, just another type of character, color in images), it makes for many new possible configurations
20:30:34 <kmc> ais523: meh CSS is just another declarative language
20:30:37 <kmc> it doesn't seem that eso to me
20:34:35 <shachaf> Declarative languages where you can declare things that change the meaning of the program's code are pretty unusual.
20:35:13 <kmc> how do you mean
20:35:17 <kmc> and also how is that what's happening here
20:37:31 <kmc> the CSS is a declarative language that changes the way HTML is displayed
20:39:44 <shachaf> It also modifies <style>x</style> to mean "display this text verbatim"
20:42:38 <kmc> meh, it's just like any other HTML element
20:42:44 <kmc> it happens to be display: none in the default stylesheet
20:42:55 <kmc> so that is only changing one style attribute
20:43:05 <kmc> it doesn't actually change the meaning of <style> which is why the CSS still works
20:44:15 <kmc> what is the minimum complete set of HTML tags
20:45:51 <kmc> I think you can render pretty much any page you want with div and style
20:46:03 <rain1> so div is HTML-complete
20:46:35 <int-e> https://validator.w3.org/nu/?doc=https%3A%2F%2Fint-e.eu%2F~bf3%2Ftmp%2Fvalid.html
20:46:43 <kmc> although it'd be cumbersome to put the same style in every div
20:46:52 <kmc> (you could also use span, or any other single tag, even a custom one)
20:47:07 <kmc> of course if you want scripts or videos or iframes or something like that then you need the relevant tag
20:47:12 <kmc> unless you want to cheat and make it from javascript
20:47:18 <int-e> html5 is so "nice"... many tags are implicitly inferred.
20:47:28 <kmc> actually, can you set a video as content with CSS?
20:47:35 <kmc> that sounds like the kind of madshit thing that you could do
20:47:45 <kmc> int-e: oh yes... I wrote a conforming HTML5 parser so I know all about that
20:47:52 <int-e> I guess the question is... "complete" for what?
20:48:42 <kmc> keep the web and invite web people to ruin systems programming too
20:48:55 <int-e> and it's so weird that <title> of all elements should not be optional.
20:49:12 <shachaf> You know how people are doing WebAssembly-on-the-server nowadays?
20:49:24 <shachaf> I haven't seen any real justification for it yet.
20:49:49 <shachaf> people seem p. gung-ho about it, though
20:50:18 <kmc> are they the kind of people who think computer science started when brendan eich invented javascript
20:50:19 <ais523> int-e: metadata is important, <title> is probably the most important metadata?
20:50:34 <ais523> (arguably encoding is more important but often you can safely guess ASCII, also often it's sent out-of-band)
20:50:54 <ais523> kmc: many results in computer science predate computers and programming
20:51:05 <int-e> Google, yes, I knew that: "Someone just used your password to try to sign in to your account."
20:51:11 <shachaf> I suspect kmc is aware of that fact.
20:51:12 <kmc> there are rules for auto detecting the encoding so you can rely on that
20:51:15 <ais523> back then they were classified as part of philosophy, possibly because philosophers study logic, possibly because nobody knew what they were useful for
20:51:30 <kmc> what would you say is the earliest problem that would now be considered part of computer science
20:51:31 <int-e> Now if you have not blocked *my* attempt to send an email I would be much happier.
20:51:39 <kmc> I mean logic has applications in CS but most of logic is not considered CS per se
20:51:41 <ais523> the last day before I submitted my thesis I was sitting in the library looking up results in old philosophy books
20:51:57 <kmc> Hilbert's 10th Problem is basically a programming problem though
20:52:24 <ais523> ugh, I hate it when people refer to hilbert's problems by number because it makes it so hard to remember which is which
20:52:59 <ais523> 10th = solve arbitrary diophantine equations
20:53:08 <ais523> which is probably impossible because they're Turing-complete
20:53:10 <b_jonas> arseniiv: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Funciton/Quine
20:53:36 <Phantom_Hoover> oh you're hedging for the church-turing thesis being false
20:53:43 <ais523> yes, that's exactly the hedge
20:53:49 <kmc> lol https://blog.rust-lang.org/2019/06/03/governance-wg-announcement.html
20:53:55 <ais523> I don't see any reasonable way we can /know/ that the church-turing thesis is true
20:53:56 <kmc> your committees are dysfunctional? add more committees
20:55:00 <b_jonas> "<ais523> I'm normally quite good at picking up on intentional misspellings in esolang names" => I wonder what you thought of when I wrote "Amycus" instead of "Amicus" half of the time, including even in the article title
20:55:13 <ais523> b_jonas: oh, I thought the language was actually called Amycus
20:55:18 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: I have no idea, I try not to pay too much attention
20:55:24 <ais523> if you make a mistake half the time then sometimes the other half looks like the mistake
20:55:26 <kmc> it may relate to the new website clusterfuck
20:55:31 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, i increasingly find the word 'folks' to be a suggestive marker of someone being a wanker
20:56:24 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: at least it's not "folx"
20:56:29 <kmc> which is 1000% that
20:56:56 <b_jonas> kmc: you wrote a conforming HTML5 parser? now I'm interested. can you tell me what the proper way is to get the list of classes from the whitespace-separated list in the class attribute?
20:57:05 <kmc> b_jonas: no
20:57:19 <shachaf> there's no problem that can't be solved with a working group with a charter
20:57:44 <b_jonas> kmc: also, I'd like to know how to properly put mathml and fallback html code for when the browser doesn't support mathml together on the same page, but without relying on javascript
20:58:09 <ais523> now I'm wondering how insane a parser can be while still conforming to HTML5
20:58:26 <ais523> ^ a conforming C implementation
20:58:42 <ais523> or not quite, you need a preprocessor too
20:58:54 <ais523> but it'll handle C that's already been preprocessed according to the standard
20:59:03 <kmc> I wish things had gone differently with rust :/
20:59:06 <kmc> it really is a good language
20:59:21 <ais523> (the preprocessor is needed to handle #error directives, which actually have a standard-defined effect on the compile process)
20:59:26 <kmc> but here we are and my #1 goal for this year is to stop caring about rust
20:59:39 <ais523> maybe you can use it without caring about it?
20:59:48 <b_jonas> "<kmc> what would you say is the earliest problem that would now be considered part of computer science" => my guess is the classical algorithms for doing arithmetic ops on numbers in radixal representation
20:59:50 <kmc> that's like being friends with an ex
21:00:00 <kmc> it works sometimes
21:00:04 <ais523> my use of Rust is pretty much limited to looking at what the specification says atm and writing programs to it
21:00:08 <kmc> I don't think it will work here
21:00:09 <b_jonas> the TAOCP has historical remarks in some of its sections, including about that
21:00:17 <kmc> b_jonas: ok
21:00:22 <Phantom_Hoover> i don't want to seem judgemental but that does seem to be a kmc thing
21:00:35 <Phantom_Hoover> you have become alienated and embittered about a lot of communities iirc
21:00:51 <b_jonas> ais523: well, it was probably called Amycus back then by mistake, but even then, I did use "Amicus" a few times in the article
21:01:07 <kmc> if you have any advice on how to stop doing that pls let me know
21:01:10 <Phantom_Hoover> also a friend just sent me this https://twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/1134883280996642817
21:01:12 <ais523> now I wonder if you can set this sort of situation up in an esolang intentionally
21:01:13 <b_jonas> ais523: later I retconned it so now there's both an "Amicus" and and "Amycus"
21:01:26 <Phantom_Hoover> at last everyone will have countless opportunities to tell the US government that they're dril
21:01:40 <ais523> there's that esolang that's named after the first sentence of a Wikipedia article, and the name changes whenever the article changes…
21:01:43 <b_jonas> but "Amicus" should have been the name I used if I wasn't stupid
21:02:05 <ais523> they're both pronounced the same in English, anyway (at least, the dialects I know about)
21:03:34 <b_jonas> kmc: I have the opposite goal, I want to start using rust
21:03:47 <kmc> b_jonas: cool, well, fortunately the path to that is well documented
21:04:17 <b_jonas> kmc: yes, and there's also some IRC channels where people can help me
21:04:20 <kmc> b_jonas: just don't get involved with "the community"
21:04:30 <ais523> I've got most of the way through writing my own suffix tree impl in Rust
21:04:36 <b_jonas> kmc: I'm not saying I want to use the dependency hell on their package repository
21:04:44 <ais523> the one currently on Cargo isn't flexible enough for what I want
21:05:04 <kmc> don't get into a position where you care which thoughts they do and don't allow to be expressed
21:05:05 <b_jonas> have you seen how many dependencies the most widely used regex package has? I won't be using that shit when I can just wrap a dependency-less regex engine with a C interface
21:05:19 <kmc> don't get emotionally invested
21:05:25 <shachaf> rust people keep saying rust is way ahead of the competition because of all the packages and things
21:05:33 <kmc> and avoid the shitheads like steve, ashley and manish
21:05:36 <shachaf> is that actually true or are the majority of them nonsense
21:05:37 <b_jonas> but the core language and standard library is made pretty well
21:06:05 <b_jonas> shachaf: obviously most of the hype they say about the language is false, but the same applies to any big language or library
21:06:17 <b_jonas> also I want to use python3 a little
21:06:24 <ais523> shachaf: I personally don't consider Rust to really /have/ competition, it's managed to find a niche that didn't previously exist (which is why it's interesting from an esoprogramming point of view)
21:07:01 <b_jonas> I didn't use to get too invested in python, but I realized recently that it has grown to become a decent language,
21:07:07 <ais523> low-level/systems programming with hard static safety guarantees
21:07:12 <Phantom_Hoover> steve klabnik? he's always seemed ok when he posts on reddit (which he does a lot)
21:07:14 <b_jonas> with a good standard library and stuff,
21:07:18 <ais523> I guess Ada's in the same category, but has issues of its own
21:07:39 <ais523> e.g. Ada has a malloc equivalent, but (in safe Ada) not a free equivalent, because freeing referenced memory would be unsafe
21:07:59 <b_jonas> and that my main objection to it is still the indent-dedent syntax (which makes it hard to use it in one-liners or on irc), but that is actually a very specific objection that I can fix with a compatible syntax addition if I really want to
21:08:23 <ais523> whitespace sensitivity in Python annoys me too, I find it's way too easy for whitespace in a program to get corrupted
21:08:23 <b_jonas> with rust too I have some problems, but I figured they're problems that I can fix by writing some library functions that I'll then use in many programs
21:08:49 <ais523> my personal problems with Rust tend to be things that are so specific and eso that probably nobody else has run into them
21:09:01 <b_jonas> the context is that the main thing that pushes me to python is that perl has grown to be a much worse language that it used to be
21:09:13 <shachaf> remember when rust looked like http://slbkbs.org/curry.rs.txt
21:09:36 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, but are they problems that you can fix easily by writing a library with functions and macros etc, or ones where to fix you'd have to replace everything in the core language?
21:10:57 <ais523> ugh, I can't remember the exact details of the problem, but know that it would have been fixed by making it possible to declare a trait as not being implementable by third-party modules, and then implicitly causing the trait to inherit from every trait implemented by every type that implements it
21:11:06 <ais523> I was considering PRing that but never got around to it
21:11:23 <ais523> as it is, my only workaround involved very large where clauses that had to be repeated all over the program
21:11:59 <shachaf> ais523: Another niche that Rust is in is "low-level language made in the past decade"
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21:12:26 <ais523> shachaf: I don't agree with that, there are plenty of attempts to make "better C" or "better C++"
21:12:36 <ais523> but they're not better by enough to be worthwhile
21:12:44 <shachaf> I didn't say it's alone in that niche.
21:12:57 <shachaf> But I think a lot of people are interested in it for that reason.
21:12:58 <ais523> I don't care about creation date of a language when evaluating it, though, normally
21:13:13 <shachaf> OK, really I mean "other than C and C++"
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21:13:56 <ais523> (there's the correlation that if a language was created a long time ago and is well-known and has features I like, I'd probably be using it already, so being new makes it less likely that I've already rejected it)
21:14:20 <shachaf> Is Ada good? Maybe I should just use Ada.
21:14:25 <HackEso> Sgeolang used to change frequently, but eventually it rusted in place.
21:14:54 <ais523> I think Ada is worth looking at; I am not convinced it's worth using
21:15:24 <ais523> Ada fans tend to be really fanatical about it for some reason (much as is seen with Lisp fans), which is arguably a positive
21:15:33 <esowiki> [[Talk:EnScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63106&oldid=63095 * JonoCode9374 * (+2513) /* Partial Interpreter */ new section
21:15:44 <ais523> but I'm worried that the sort of environments which would push someone to learn Ada (typically military) wouldn't leave a lot of scope for learning about the alternatives
21:16:06 <shachaf> I've never met an Ada fan.
21:16:18 <ais523> they're rare but not nonexistent
21:16:48 <ais523> I know quite a bit of Ada by proxy (having learned VHDL which is mostly the same)
21:17:57 <ais523> but yes, on any sufficiently large programming forum, you'll likely get Ada fans turning up eventually
21:18:42 <Phantom_Hoover> there's a resident weirdo on /r/programmingcirclejerk who insists that freepascal is basically the perfect language which does everything rust, d and c++ do but better
21:19:15 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: Is it true?
21:19:21 <ais523> as it's /r/programmingcirclejerk they are probably being ironic
21:19:22 <b_jonas> kmc: I want to add that I'm somewhat thick-skinned and hard to pull into flamewars, so I tend to function reasonably well in online communities that some people consider toxic,
21:19:24 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: lol I like that guy
21:19:31 <kmc> I don't think they're being ironic
21:19:42 <kmc> b_jonas: the Rust community isn't like that
21:19:44 <b_jonas> the canon example being the perl community, which is someone split among the people who like what p5p are doing now, and schmorp, who keeps cricicizing them
21:19:49 <ais523> why would you try to argue a serious point on a circlejerk forum?
21:20:08 <b_jonas> and I managed to remain in speaking terms with people from both halves
21:20:29 <kmc> b_jonas: the Rust community is the opposite, everyone is expected to be super nice to the point where you can't criticise anything without couching what you say in the most deferential terms and a bunch of empty praise
21:20:31 <shachaf> I think I know the thing Phantom_Hoover is talking about and if so that person isn't ironic but self-aware of how they sound kind of ridiculous.
21:20:31 <Phantom_Hoover> well it's more of an /r/buttcoin style 'circlejerk' where it's not aping the targets of your mockery but just, you know, mocking them
21:20:32 <b_jonas> ais523: well, sometimes I do want a bugfix to get patched
21:20:53 <kmc> any trace of emotion in a negative viewpoint and you are "not being constructive"
21:20:54 <arseniiv> b_jonas: ah. Now I remember I have seen that probably :D thanks!
21:20:54 <shachaf> It's like me talking about Chu spaces.
21:20:56 <kmc> they also self congratulate themselves a whole lot on being friendly
21:21:06 <kmc> and the leadership seem to be exempt from following their own rules
21:21:37 <b_jonas> kmc: thank you for the hints, but I think I can manage
21:21:50 <kmc> you probably don't suffer from the same specific issues as me, anyway
21:21:52 <b_jonas> and that does very often mean that I stop talking in some thread or parts of the forum
21:22:04 <b_jonas> which is the way you avoid flamewars
21:22:22 <b_jonas> not by being nice, but by not replying when there's no need because you won't be able to convince the other person anyway
21:22:30 <Phantom_Hoover> the ashley williams shitstorm is now my go-to example of how morally bankrupt ''social justice'' standards of acceptable conduct are
21:22:52 <ais523> on the subject of "attempts to make a better C created in the last ten years", there was one that became public just 3 days ago: https://odin-lang.org/
21:22:54 <b_jonas> I'm not perfect in this of course, and I do remember a few mistakes when I did get pulled into a pointless debate and I should have known better
21:23:00 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: I wasn't going to bring it up directly
21:23:06 <ais523> I don't really care about it, just thought that it was interesting that people were still trying
21:23:13 <b_jonas> ais523: do you count golang in this?
21:23:24 <ais523> b_jonas: yes, but it's more than 3 days old
21:23:26 <b_jonas> ais523: are you involved in that project? just curious
21:23:27 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: it's unclear what value she even provides
21:23:34 <shachaf> I remember Odin from last year at least.
21:23:37 <ais523> I don't consider Go to be better enough than C to be worthwhile, and may be worse in some respects
21:23:39 <kmc> besides dating steve
21:23:46 <ais523> shachaf: well, 3 days ago since it was announced as a public-beta type thing
21:23:56 <Phantom_Hoover> applying wadlers law i only looked at the lexical syntax and said to myself 'aha, it's rust'
21:23:57 <shachaf> b_jonas: I don't think languages with garbage collection are a practical alternative to C.
21:24:09 <b_jonas> I'm just asking whether it was _trying_ to be a better C
21:24:22 <b_jonas> I have examined golang and decided it was not really worthwhile,
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21:24:26 <ais523> b_jonas: I'm not involved iin that project
21:24:36 <shachaf> I think Odin is very close to a copy of what'shisname's language.
21:24:37 <b_jonas> though I do commend them for their spreading the idea of channels as a thread synchro primitive
21:24:56 <ais523> hasn't Java had BlockingQueue for longer than that?
21:25:10 <b_jonas> ais523: sure, there were implementations of it,
21:25:21 <b_jonas> but golang put them in focus so people notice it
21:25:38 <ais523> in my day job I've used so many different thread synchronization primitives…
21:26:51 <b_jonas> (see https://esolangs.org/logs/2019-05.html#lvOb on ais's recent question about thread synchronization)
21:27:21 <kmc> my biggest complaint with golang is not the language but the anti-intellectual blub attitude of the community
21:27:26 <b_jonas> also, I have an algorithms question. I'd like to know if a certain NP problem is NP-complete.
21:27:33 <kmc> "I've never learned or used generics so I don't need them"
21:27:39 <kmc> b_jonas: oh?
21:27:53 <ais523> I think BlockingQueue is one of the main things I use to actually block threads on each other in my day job
21:28:11 <ais523> kmc: I think it's a bit more nuanced than that, it's "we want to be able to hire programmers who don't understand generics so we'll leave them out of the language"
21:28:30 <kmc> I mean that's what rob pike said
21:28:34 <kmc> that they want to hire mediocre programmers
21:28:40 <kmc> but the rank and file go programmers have to pretend that's not them
21:28:43 <kmc> at least the ones who post about it online
21:28:50 <kmc> so they come up with excuses for why it's actually a brillinat design decision
21:29:07 <Phantom_Hoover> i once snarked on a reddit thread that you wouldn't want to use go if you wanted to take advantage of ideas invented after 1980
21:29:30 <int-e> "To use this script, you'll need to have registered with Google as an OAuth application and obtained an OAuth client ID and client secret." -- what if I don't want to be an OAuth application?
21:29:31 <shachaf> to be fair, who needs generics when you have canadian aboriginal syllabics
21:29:31 <b_jonas> the inputs are a set of tuples, the tuples contain three integers: two are incoming and one is outgoing. these integers are indexes to imagined nodes, two of which are special, say 0 is the source and 1 is the goal. the input also has a number that serves as a size limit.
21:29:31 <ais523> hmm, what programming ideas /were/ invented after 1980?
21:29:55 <ais523> most ideas have a really long history, it just takes a while to find practical uses for them
21:30:11 <kmc> that is partly the premise of rust
21:30:11 <ais523> IMO the best programming ideas are the ones which are immediately obvious why they're useful, but hard to implement
21:30:16 <kmc> but I think some of the borrow checker stuff is newer
21:30:31 <kmc> I don't exactly remember when the work on region types was done
21:30:33 <ais523> people are likely to have those pretty much right away and then get stuck
21:30:42 <kmc> also typeclasses weren't even in Haskell until after '90, I'm pretty sure
21:30:48 <kmc> and most of the elaboration on how to make typeclasses work well is later
21:30:50 <b_jonas> you have to decide whether there's a sequence of length at most that limit, where each element of the sequence is one of the triples from the set, both of the two incoming nodes are either 0 or have appeared as outgoing nodes in a previous tuple of the sequence, and one of the tuples has 1 as the outgoing node number.
21:31:02 <shachaf> I'm not sure how important a feature generics are.
21:31:14 <Phantom_Hoover> i think you can trace most ideas back to some form prior to 1980
21:31:16 <b_jonas> does this have a polynomial algorithm? or can you prove that it's NP-complete?
21:31:19 <shachaf> It seems that better metaprogramming features are probably more useful.
21:31:22 <ais523> kmc: are we talking about higher-kinded typeclasses like Monad and Functor? or are even base typeclasses newer than that?
21:31:31 <Phantom_Hoover> but a lot of them took decades to be realised in even research languages
21:31:31 <kmc> also the calculus of constructions was from 1988
21:31:35 <kmc> I don't remember ais523
21:32:14 <shachaf> Do you know the sum of square roots problem, speaking of problems?
21:32:23 <ais523> b_jonas: polynomial in what? you have two sizes in your input (the number of nodes and the length limit)
21:32:38 <shachaf> The problem is "given two lists of positive integers, which has a larger sum-of-square-roots?"
21:32:50 <b_jonas> ais523: polynomial in the number of nodes (with some log adjustment because the numbers grow)
21:33:03 <b_jonas> polynomial in the number of tuples in input
21:33:06 <b_jonas> which is the size of the input
21:33:22 <shachaf> It seems to be surprisingly tricky.
21:33:26 <ais523> b_jonas: there's a trivial O(n³) algorithm
21:33:39 <ais523> and probably you can do it quadratic, possibly faster
21:33:56 <b_jonas> what's the trivial O(n**3) algorithm?
21:34:39 <ais523> start with the empty set as the set of nodes you can reach in length 0
21:34:44 <b_jonas> shachaf: I know an algorithmic solution for that, but it's pretty slow
21:35:01 <ais523> then look over the whole list of tuples for the reachable ones, add their target nodes to a set of nodes that you can reach in length 1
21:35:18 <ais523> err, actually you can reach node 0 in length 0
21:35:38 <shachaf> It's not known to be in NP. It probably isn't?
21:35:42 <ais523> then look over the whole list of the tuples for the ones you can reach from the nodes reachable in lengths 0 and 1, add their target nodes to a set of nodes that you can reach in length 2
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21:36:33 <b_jonas> ais523: the problem is that you may have a step where you use two nodes that you reached with paths that have an intersection
21:36:34 <ais523> once you reach a length equal to the number of tuples, all reachable nodes will have been found already, so even if the length happens to be higher, you can just stop at that point
21:36:37 <b_jonas> so it's not enough to just add the lengths
21:36:56 <b_jonas> (this won't be a problem for length 2 yet)
21:37:24 <ais523> oh, I see, the length is the number of nodes that are used, not the length of the longest path to get there
21:37:29 <ais523> err, the number of tuples
21:39:04 <b_jonas> ais523: whoa, that first example problem that they give on the homepage https://odin-lang.org/ is oddly familiar. didn't they steal that from rust or python or something?
21:39:10 <b_jonas> what the program does that is
21:39:18 <b_jonas> obviously not the exact source code
21:39:42 <b_jonas> not that this would be a bad thing, just unusual
21:39:52 <ais523> the example for bison is pretty similar to that, but then it's the sort of program bison specialises in
21:40:27 <ais523> …what does it say to me that the first thing that jumped out of me is that they've demonstrated that the string `program` can be successfully used twice without an issue?
21:40:43 <ais523> it's not like it's even modified in the loop!
21:40:59 <int-e> b_jonas: oh, so addition chains are an instance of your problem?
21:41:18 <b_jonas> int-e: something like that, yes
21:41:26 <int-e> (decide whether there's an addition chain of length k that computes n)
21:42:22 <b_jonas> int-e: only it's not quite a special case in the sense you'd need for a reduction for NP, because to reduce an addition chain problem to this one, you have to blow it up exponentially
21:43:54 <b_jonas> ais523: thanks for the link, I'll take a look at what this Odin is
21:44:05 <b_jonas> it's interesting to know about new tries like this
21:44:38 <b_jonas> and of course worth to bring up projects like that on #esoteric
21:44:40 <shachaf> Did you see Zig, which probably has similar goals overall?
21:45:02 <b_jonas> even if their a priori chance of success is low because there are so many attempts
21:45:07 <b_jonas> shachaf: I don't think I've seen it
21:45:11 <ais523> shachaf: yes but I can't remember much about it
21:45:22 <b_jonas> but "similar goals" doesn't tell much because I don't yet know what the goals of Odin are
21:46:16 <int-e> b_jonas: This is mainly for intuition. Finding optimal addition chains is pretty hard.
21:52:21 <b_jonas> int-e: and I've also been reading TAOCP ch. 7.1.2 at "Determining the minimum cost" of evaluating boolean functions with two-input gates and reusable outputs, which is an example of this and is also pretty hard
21:53:12 <ais523> I think this boils down to the subproblem of "given a graph of nodes, with known minimum length to reach all but one them but the last, work out the minimum length to reach the last node"
21:53:50 <ais523> if you can solve that in polynomial time, you can solve the whole thing in polynomial time with a vaguely A*ish search
21:53:55 <b_jonas> ais523: it's not really a graph, because the arcs have two input nodes, not just one
21:53:55 <int-e> hmm? no, you're building dags rather than paths.
21:54:36 <b_jonas> it's more like a hypergraph
21:54:36 <int-e> (dags with fixed in-degree; binary trees plus sharing)
21:55:23 <b_jonas> and I don't understand what you mean about that known minimum length thing
21:55:28 <int-e> I'm describing the shape of the witness, not the input.
21:56:47 <b_jonas> shachaf: as for the sum of square roots thing, let me tell a bit more about that
21:57:02 <int-e> It really feels like it should be NP-hard to me.
21:57:04 <ais523> b_jonas: for each node other than node 1, we know what the minimal solution would be if that node were numbered 1
21:57:20 <ais523> now we need to find the minimal solution given that information
21:57:38 <b_jonas> there's the general problem where you have an expression built of integer constants, addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, square root, nested to arbitrary depths, and you want to determine whether it's positive or negative or zero
21:57:56 <ais523> isn't that believed to be impossible? although IIRC unproven
21:57:56 <b_jonas> and there's an algorithm for this, which is effectively taught in school, and can be formalized
21:58:20 <ais523> it might be that that set of operations is small enough to make it possible
21:58:22 <b_jonas> and it's a real algorithm that always finishes if you formalize it properly
21:58:32 <b_jonas> but it's very slow in general
21:58:37 <b_jonas> ais523: it's small enough, yes
21:58:39 <int-e> ais523: the thing is, a solution is a set of tuples. If you have a triple (a,b,c) (from a and b, go to c) and solutions reaching a and b, described by sets A and B, the corresponding solution is A \cup B \cup {(a,b,c)}... and just knowing the size of A and B tells you very little about the size of that union.
21:58:47 <b_jonas> it gets much worse if it can involve cube roots too
21:59:17 <b_jonas> in that case just the grade school methods don't work, you need the complicated minimal polynomial and guaranteed boundaries for roots and that sort of shit
21:59:30 <b_jonas> or at least I think you need it, I definitely don't know an algorithm that works without
21:59:48 <int-e> ais523: and it's quite conceivable that the minimum solution for c does not even use minimal solutions for a and b but some larger ones that happen to share a lot of triples.
22:00:06 <b_jonas> for square roots, the simple grade school algorithm works, it doesn't do anything too tricky, just keeps manipulating formal expressions of the same sort all along
22:00:12 <b_jonas> and I can explain how it works if anyone cares
22:01:30 <ais523> b_jonas: apparently Richardson's Theorem has been tightened as far as (and slightly further, but in an uninteresting way) addition/multiplication/subtraction/divison/integer constant/sin
22:02:04 <ais523> but it's decidable if you remove sin from that set
22:02:37 <int-e> b_jonas: A (now ex-) colleague of mine has been working on formalizing algebraic numbers.
22:03:24 <b_jonas> there are two basic tricks you have to know, one to rewrite a division so that square root doesn't occur in the denominator; and the other is to choose a most complicated square root expression, rewrite the expression as a + b * sqrt(c) where sqrt(c) doesn't occur in a or b, and square both sides
22:04:34 <int-e> So I can appreciate some of the difficulties. I've also worked out the special case of square roots once. As far as I can see, you can eliminate prime square roots one by one by conjugation. It's tedious, and you get two subproblems each time...
22:04:39 <int-e> So it's quite expensive :)
22:04:39 <ais523> oh, the theorem also requires one existential quantifier, that makes a pretty big difference
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22:04:57 <b_jonas> ais523: right, that's the trick. with just radicals or even roots of polynomials it's decidable; with exponentials it's probably not
22:05:59 <b_jonas> although I don't really fully understand the details of how you work with roots of polynomials, I at least understand some of the basic ideas and it seem belivable
22:06:59 <b_jonas> I don't really know much about the undecidable cases and in which classes it's been proven
22:07:21 <int-e> b_jonas: in his case the representation of a real algebraic number was a square-free polynomial together with an interval that contains the root of interest.
22:07:46 <b_jonas> int-e: yeah, one part I don't understand is how you handle that with complex numbers
22:07:50 <int-e> and complex algebraic numbers were pairs of real algebraic numbers... probably not the best choice :-(
22:08:08 <b_jonas> I don't think you can just choose to ignore complex numbers
22:08:21 <arseniiv> <ais523> kmc: are we talking about higher-kinded typeclasses like Monad and Functor? or are even base typeclasses newer than that? => they say typeclasses were proposed by Wadler and Blott in a 1989 paper. Though I don’t know anything about actually working versions of Haskell compilers in those days
22:08:22 <b_jonas> they come up all the time when you try to do computations with algebraic stuff on reals
22:08:40 <int-e> b_jonas: you can still represent them this way.
22:09:08 <b_jonas> int-e: represent in theory, sure, but I don't understand how the algorithms to handle them would work
22:09:09 <ais523> Rust traits remind me of Haskell typeclasses except they're (currently) base-kinded only; I'm not sure whether there are mathematical differences
22:09:38 <b_jonas> int-e: heck, I'm not sure I even understand the basic algebra enough to be able to prove that the algebraic numbers are closed to field operations
22:09:42 <b_jonas> Galois theorem and whatnot
22:09:54 <ais523> there's a syntax for higher-kinded traits, and they work in the case of lifetimes, but not in the case of types; presumably that's just a matter of implementation though
22:09:55 <int-e> b_jonas: well you'll end up using tricks like Re(x) = (x + conj(x))/2 all the time.
22:10:11 <arseniiv> I don’t like in Haskell its insufficient incapsulation/modularization. I need to write a module to hide some names, e. g. homonymous record labels
22:10:15 <b_jonas> I passed the exam and got a degree technically, but that doesn't mean I know that stuff
22:10:19 <arseniiv> it makes me sad and frustrated
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22:10:57 <b_jonas> arseniiv: come to rust or C++ then, their module systems aren't perfect, but much better than nothing
22:11:01 <arseniiv> they could had added something like `namespace` and `using` as seen in C++
22:11:21 <arseniiv> yeah, but I’m don’t like C++ either :D
22:11:38 <int-e> arseniiv: it's really not that bad, IMHO. you just make many small modules
22:11:55 <ais523> Rust's module system is pretty flexible, maybe more so than was intended
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22:12:13 <int-e> arseniiv: it's far from perfect of course
22:12:18 <arseniiv> and I definitely don’t know how to learn these glittery contemporary versions of it in one take, there seems to be no singular book concentrated on that
22:12:22 <int-e> arseniiv: I wish there were qualified *exports*.
22:12:29 <ais523> you can pretty much implement `impl Trait` using it, for example, which is nice because `impl Trait` doesn't work in most cases yet
22:12:43 <ais523> (it does work in the most important case, but the less important cases can be relevant too)
22:12:46 <arseniiv> alternative being gradually taking all the new features in in a historic manner
22:12:48 <b_jonas> ais523: I think it was intended, whoever designed it basically knew what you could do in C++ and what you couldn't do, and chose one of the several paths to make something like that but fixing the problems
22:12:58 <int-e> arseniiv: but I don't really mind having many small files. I mind having long import lists that are repeated all over the place.
22:13:49 <arseniiv> int-e: yeah it’s more like a minor splinter. But when I prototype something or experiment, it’s too problematic to write many modules
22:14:11 <b_jonas> it's not the fix that I expected, but it makes sense and might be better
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22:15:20 <arseniiv> hm also on “better typeclasses” proposals
22:15:36 <b_jonas> what I expected is similar to what rust has, but with the important difference that every mod other than the root implicitly imports every name (including private ones) of its containing mod
22:16:11 <b_jonas> the good thing is that that can be easily reduced to what rust has, because you can add such a wildcard "use super::*;" import
22:16:14 <arseniiv> they say there was an (implemented) proposal for Agda about something implicit something I forgot, is it viable in a some abstract new language?
22:16:14 <ais523> int-e: what would be your opinion on files containing an import list, but it was automatically managed by the IDE so you never actually had to look at it?
22:16:33 <ais523> even if it was really long and specific (e.g. importing every symbol you used individually)
22:16:52 <arseniiv> I’ll find what it was called to be more specific
22:17:32 <arseniiv> OK, the paper is called Dominique Devriese, Frank Piessens. On the Bright Side of Type Classes: Instance Arguments in Agda
22:17:40 <b_jonas> (this is about the mod part itself; not the inter-crate stuff)
22:17:45 <arseniiv> maybe anybody had read it already
22:17:55 <ais523> with rust 2018 the inter-crate stuff is pretty nice too
22:18:11 <b_jonas> ais523: I'm still not sure if I like that
22:18:32 <b_jonas> I've read the rules and they're not as bad as I first feared when I read non-precise stuff about the changes
22:18:35 <arseniiv> ais523: I’m not int-e but I’d be totally in favor
22:18:53 <b_jonas> but I'm not sure the new system is the right one
22:18:55 <ais523> b_jonas: they're simpler and more intuitive than the old rules, which is good
22:22:24 <int-e> ais523: Hmm, I would want it to collapse imports (somebody else might see the code who's not using that IDE), and I would want to be alerted when a new module is added (it's possible that I made a typo in calling the function). And there are qualified imports to consider...
22:22:39 <int-e> ais523: So... yes that sounds good but it also sounds hard to get right.
22:23:11 <int-e> And no, I don't think hiding the list from the IDE user is an excuse for making the imports messy and unecessarily long-winded.
22:24:06 <ais523> the way it works in NetBeans is that when you type a symbol prefix and press Ctrl-Space, you get a list of symbols starting with that prefix that you can get from currently imported modules; press ctrl-space again and it removes the "currently imported modules" restriction
22:24:32 <ais523> I find that pretty fast to use (faster than typing the whole symbol name, given Java's typical verbosity) and it makes it very hard to include a module by accident
22:24:48 <ais523> (it'll list the exact module the symbol comes from, and put up pop-ups with documentation and the like)
22:25:18 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah, I've seen people write programs with ides that let you find symbols. I recognize it easily because their code has symbols with typoed names that they define. my code doesn't usually have those, because I won't make the same typo in every mention of the symbol.
22:25:21 <ais523> I have this idea that languages that are commonly used with IDEs aren't making full use of the IDE's power
22:25:56 <ais523> b_jonas: well it's normally fairly easy to do a global rename in an IDE, it knows which names correspond to each other
22:26:00 <ais523> so the typo's at least easy to fix
22:26:15 <ais523> but most of the programmers I've seen do that really will make the same typo consistently…
22:26:47 <b_jonas> ais523: it's a bit harder if it's a project developed by multiple people, and the symbol is an exported one that other people will use (which is why I usually find out about the typo)
22:27:14 <ais523> I'm the sort of person who would rename the typo out from underneath the other developers :-D
22:27:29 <b_jonas> and sure, there are typos I make somewhat consistently
22:28:17 <b_jonas> ais523: oh, they are the sort of person who auto-reformat the entire source file and don't notice that their ide has broken the proper formatting of some part of the code and replaced it with nonsense, I have to admit that
22:29:01 <b_jonas> sometimes the big global changes they make (not just whitespace) requires workarounds when trying to do merges or other version control stuff
22:29:33 <b_jonas> though I have to admit that I've also made the mistake of comitting some code files with lf as line terminator, and some with crlf, and it is fair game to make those consistent even if that breaks some automatic diffs
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22:30:22 <b_jonas> that they use an ide is also obvious from how they somehow have large sections of code commented out with line comments (// in front of every line)
22:30:32 <ais523> b_jonas: I have my IDE set to autoformat on save
22:30:33 <b_jonas> I usually just if(0) or #ifdef them out instead
22:30:55 <b_jonas> ais523: does that ever lead to cycles where you and another person autoformats the same file to different styles?
22:31:12 <ais523> no, because I set their IDEs to do the same thing
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22:33:01 <b_jonas> ais523: does it never happen that you're not the team leader or dominant person to be able to define what the proper formatting style is?
22:34:02 <ais523> b_jonas: so far it's never come up
22:45:39 <shachaf> Is Rust pretty tightly bound to the philosophy of doing malloc/free all the time? This is my impression.
22:46:15 <shachaf> I'd like a language that helps with lifetimes, but also doesn't insist so much on Box/Rc/etc. and lets you manage your own lifetimes.
22:46:32 <shachaf> Which might be more stack-shaped or something else.
22:46:44 <ais523> there's a Rust library I'm writing which has very few standard library dependencies
22:46:50 <ais523> the only dependency on core::alloc is one use of Vec
22:47:13 <ais523> however, if you aren't using Box, Rc, Vec, and friends, you will probably have to store things on the stack
22:47:40 <b_jonas> shachaf: no, I don't think it's bound to that philosophy
22:47:54 <shachaf> Am I limited to "the" stack or can I put things in my own stacks?
22:48:18 <ais523> you can create your own smart pointer classes
22:48:28 <ais523> which can have any allocation behaviour you want
22:48:41 <ais523> (and might or might not need to contain `unsafe` internally, depending on just how insane the allocation behaviour is)
22:49:37 <shachaf> Can't it just help with lifetimes for regular pointers instead of making smart pointer classes?
22:49:53 <b_jonas> https://odin-lang.org/docs/overview/ says "where a..b denotes an open interval [a,b], i.e. the upper limit is inclusive, and a..<b denotes a half-open interval [a,b), i.e. the upper limit is exclusive."
22:50:12 <b_jonas> I think that's a mistake, it should say s/an open/a closed/
22:50:40 <ais523> it's self-contradictory, indeed
22:51:15 <ais523> fwiw, my favoured range syntax is to always be explicit about the upper end, ..^ for half-open, ..= for closed (operator spellings taken from Perl 6 and Rust respectively)
22:51:28 <b_jonas> the part above makes it clear that the .. means a closed interval with both ranges included
22:51:47 <ais523> hmm, does ..= in Perl 6 replace something with a range that has that thing as its lower endpoint?
22:52:07 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah, sadly plain .. is tainted because perl and ruby and rust use them in different ways
22:52:30 <ais523> <Rakudo> Cannot make assignment out of .. because structural infix operators are too diffy
22:52:43 <ais523> well, it understood what I was trying to do
22:52:56 <ais523> I'm not sure I underestand why it couldn't do it though
22:53:04 <b_jonas> in perl, x..y and x...y are both closed ranges; in ruby, x..y is a closed range and x...y is a half-open range; in rust x..y is a half-open range and x..=y is closed range
22:53:09 <ais523> I'm not convinced "diffy" is a real word :-D
22:53:57 <b_jonas> ais523: isn't it trying to invoke the method named ".=" on the lhs?
22:54:21 <ais523> no, it mentioned the .. operator by name
22:54:48 <ais523> I'm pretty sure it at least lexed the line as expected, and the parser knew what I was trying to say
22:55:28 <ais523> "because structural infix operators are too diffy" has 0 hits on duckduckgo, btw, which is pretty impressive as I assume Perl6's source code is online somewhere
22:55:40 <ais523> https://docs.perl6.org/language/glossary#diffy
22:55:50 <ais523> "It means the type of the operator result is sufficiently different from its arguments that op= makes little sense"
22:55:54 <b_jonas> ais523: perhaps the error message is composed from strings in different parts
22:56:08 <b_jonas> composed from strings stored in different part of the compiler source code
22:56:19 <ais523> so it looks like it lexed and parsed correctly, and yet there's a special case in the compiler to complain that what you're trying to do is completely insane :-D
22:56:41 <ais523> only being Perl6, they invented a new word for that specific sort of insanity that you have to look up
22:57:11 <int-e> b_jonas: http://paste.debian.net/1086461/ <-- it's NP-hard by reduction from the set cover problem.
22:57:23 <b_jonas> int-e: oh thanks, I'll look at that
22:58:09 <ais523> it's obvious when you mention that
22:58:23 <ais523> I just couldn't find the right NP-complete problem to reduce from
22:58:47 <int-e> yeah that took a me while as well, as you can see :)
22:59:23 <b_jonas> thank you, that decides it
23:00:00 <b_jonas> ais523: that construction wouldn't have been obvious to me given "set cover", I'd have tried to search for a different construction, though it's possible that the different construction would have led to a proof too
23:00:24 <b_jonas> that trick of chaining among the original nodes in a given order isn't obvious to me
23:04:17 <int-e> b_jonas: that was a last-minute refinement... I originally had n more auxiliary nodes that just witnessed wither each of the numbers 1..n was covered or not
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23:11:36 <ais523> here's me describing the bug in left-pad.io, which has since been fixed: https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/4bqj7q/left_pad_as_a_service/d1btdp3/
23:14:11 <b_jonas> ais523: hmm, can that left-pad.io thing do zero-padding in such a way that a + or - sign goes before the padding? if so, what are the options to do that?
23:14:53 <ais523> the JS ecosystem it's parodying favours every module having as little functionality as possible
23:15:21 <ais523> (because it's effectively statically linked, and redundant functions are difficult to remove in JS because it's hard for a static analyser to know they're redundant)
23:15:23 <b_jonas> sure, it's just that I sometimes want to zero-pad numbers
23:16:20 <ais523> so what you'd need is a separate service, left-pad-number.example.com or whatever
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23:16:44 <b_jonas> it could be under a subdomain
23:17:28 <ais523> no, it can't be, NPM doesn't have namespaces
23:18:05 <b_jonas> it surprised me at first that it returned fancy json
23:18:11 <b_jonas> but it makes sense for the parody
23:18:17 <ais523> the original left-pad module that caused all the trouble was on NPM
23:18:21 <b_jonas> I assumed it would just give plain text in the HTTP body
23:19:36 <ais523> b_jonas: see https://api.left-pad.io/?str=test&len=1200&ch=%22 for the reason it returns JSON
23:20:32 <ais523> otherwise, how could you signal an error?
23:20:52 <ais523> (you'd also expect to get an error in the case of other API misuse issues, but maybe you could go RESTful and return an appropriate HTTP status code)
23:21:03 <b_jonas> yeah, it also serves as a parody for those JSON services
23:21:11 <ais523> actually, there's an HTTP status code for this situation too, isn't there?
23:21:12 <b_jonas> ais523: the error would be signaled in a HTTP code
23:21:27 <b_jonas> with explanation details about the salesperson in the body
23:22:00 <ais523> invalid parameters would be 400
23:22:17 <b_jonas> mind you, the JSON thing has the advantage that if you submit batch requests, it can give an error for some of them and success for others
23:22:24 <b_jonas> as in, multiple requests in the same HTTP request
23:22:47 <ais523> the API doesn't allow that, I don't think? because it's all encoded into the URL
23:23:07 <b_jonas> yes, it doesn't currently allow that
23:23:27 <ais523> besides, future chaining makes that sort of request batching difficult
23:23:52 <ais523> ooh, actually invalid parameters is 422 I think
23:24:26 * kmc is trying to send herself an email through ham radio
23:24:29 <b_jonas> do you mean that the input of later requests depend on the result of earlier ones?
23:26:09 <ais523> b_jonas: it's a programming technique for when you're using webservices as though they were libraries
23:27:00 <kmc> it's continuation passing style isn't it
23:27:01 <ais523> Future is a monad, which chains asynchronous computations as they complete
23:27:10 <kmc> I mean all monads are CPS
23:27:15 <kmc> THE MOTHER MONAD
23:27:22 <kmc> the ur-monad. the god monad
23:27:27 <kmc> the monad of monads
23:27:39 <ais523> CPS is how it's implemented, but the Future concept is more about hiding the CPS from the programmer
23:28:04 <b_jonas> ais523: right, although left padding is something of which I often naturally want to do multiple instances together, eg. how printf can take several parameters
23:28:31 <ais523> yes, but you might not have all the arguments available at the same time
23:29:06 <ais523> like, say two of the parameters are being left-padded, but for one of them you have the value locally, and for the other, you're getting hold of the value from, say, a multiply-as-a-service API
23:29:20 <b_jonas> sure, and I'm not saying that left-pad.io should require you to always use batch requests
23:29:22 <int-e> generate-a-password-as-a-service
23:29:25 <b_jonas> single requests should still be possible
23:29:30 <ais523> so one of them is just leftpad(value), the other is multiply(value).then(leftpad)
23:29:46 <ais523> int-e: I'm pretty sure that already exists
23:29:58 <ais523> there were even some sites which let you generate cryptocurrency wallets as a service
23:30:02 <int-e> ensure-99%-or-less-availability-as-a-service
23:30:04 <ais523> you can probably guess what happened next
23:30:37 <int-e> I can imagine a few things, yes.
23:30:39 <b_jonas> int-e: your password is "zcvZkIfzDGaN"
23:30:56 <b_jonas> int-e: I can define you a HackEso command if you want
23:31:08 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pwgen: not found
23:35:20 <int-e> `` pwgen -N 5 -n 13 --sha1=quotes#esoteric
23:35:20 <HackEso> iG9bohpohpeeb \ lee8oNgac3mee \ EeQuier7ceigo \ ohZuijie2Eu5s \ lien5jeeShoh7
23:35:39 <int-e> `` pwgen -N 5 -n 13 --sha1=quotes#esoteric
23:35:40 <HackEso> iG9bohpohpeeb \ lee8oNgac3mee \ EeQuier7ceigo \ ohZuijie2Eu5s \ lien5jeeShoh7
23:35:41 <b_jonas> so https://odin-lang.org/docs/overview/ seems to imply that their function parameters have the stupid problem that python is trying to fix about now (but is hard because of compatibility), where you can call any function with named parameters, even if the person who defined it didn't expect that
23:35:49 <kmc> is leftpad async in javascript
23:36:35 <HackEso> 458) <elliott> I MIGHT BECOME GHOST
23:36:51 <int-e> sounds a bit like a BABA quote...
23:37:19 <int-e> . o O ( BABA is FORGET )
23:37:30 <kmc> finally managed to send an email
23:37:35 <kmc> of course the lines ended up out of order
23:38:06 <b_jonas> kmc: oh, that shuffled source lines things again?
23:38:28 <b_jonas> kmc: was the round trip time long?
23:40:19 <kmc> there are unpredictable delays yeah
23:40:21 <kmc> i'm using APRSlink
23:40:32 <kmc> the APRS packets get lost and retransmit is slow
23:40:51 <kmc> it is packet radio on 144.39 MHz
23:40:57 <b_jonas> kmc: yes, but I mean was it long in this case?
23:41:05 <kmc> i mean a couple minutes
23:41:24 <kmc> there's an aprs igate (base station which relays to the internet) just a few blocks away but I still can't hit it so well with my handheld radio
23:41:36 <kmc> but I busted out a more powerful radio and a bigger antenna and it works fine
23:41:52 <kmc> supposedly this could be useful for sending emails/sms from outside of cell coverage range
23:41:54 <b_jonas> that may depend on what's between you and that station
23:41:59 <kmc> but i'll start by tring to make it work at all
23:42:06 <b_jonas> I guess there are ... blocks
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23:42:26 <b_jonas> ones with iron in the walls
23:42:45 <kmc> these little radios work best with repeaters that are on top of mountains or tall buildings
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23:43:34 <b_jonas> the cell phone antenna nearby is on the house across the street, which is the tallest house around
23:44:56 <b_jonas> some months ago, there was a blackout in the whole neighborhood, at which point I could even hear the aggregator spinning up as the first noticable sign that more than my home was affected
23:45:05 <b_jonas> also I was in a mobile phone call, and it disconnected
23:45:05 <kmc> aggregator?
23:45:20 <b_jonas> aggregator is a diesel engine that provides backup power
23:46:02 <kmc> my "shack" (aka coffee table) is getting pretty cluttered https://i.imgur.com/QmTTyCa.jpg
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23:46:59 <kmc> those are nice headphones and i shouldn't keep them on the floor
23:48:43 <b_jonas> kmc: wires! and a bicycle too
23:48:58 <kmc> that's my bicycle
23:49:01 <kmc> that i don't ride enough
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00:08:00 <arseniiv> <int-e> . o O ( BABA is FORGET ) => actually, not so. I’m not even close to completing it yet
00:11:25 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> so https://odin-lang.org/docs/overview/ seems to imply that their function parameters have the stupid problem that python is trying to fix about now (but is hard because of compatibility), where you can call any function with named parameters, even if the person who defined it didn't expect that => is it a problem?
00:11:56 <kmc> you can't see it very well but there's a wire attached to one of those radios which stretches all the way across the backyard
00:11:59 <kmc> https://i.imgur.com/o6un6Bg.jpg
00:12:08 <ais523> arseniiv: it means that parameter names unexpectedly become part of your public API
00:12:23 <ais523> I think that it's probably best for them to be clearly in or clearly out of the public API
00:12:30 <fizzie> Heh, Finnish has that word too (fi:aggregaatti = a combustion-engine based generator).
00:12:40 <fizzie> (I don't think en:aggregator has that sense at all, though.)
00:15:21 <ais523> it doesn't, or at least if it does it's an obscure meaning I've never heard of
00:15:29 <lambdabot> *** "aggregator" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
00:15:29 <lambdabot> n 1: a person who collects things [syn: {collector},
00:15:52 <fizzie> Wikipedia suggests "engine-generator" (or just generator, with the engine part implied by context) is what English calls that.
00:15:55 <ais523> although "person" isn't part of the definition at least in programming, it can be anything that collects things
00:15:55 <arseniiv> ais523: ah, that makes sense then
00:16:17 <ais523> especially if it groups them in some way
00:17:50 <int-e> de:Aggregat *usually* a combination of an engine and a generator, though ethymologically its could be any combination of several machines?
00:18:03 <arseniiv> nice photos, now I’ll go sleeping
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00:30:50 <shachaf> int-e: i,i an inclusion-exclusion conclusion
00:58:44 <int-e> shachaf: how cryptic
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01:33:39 <esowiki> [[Turing Machine But Way Worse]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63107&oldid=62366 * MilkyWay90 * (+2140) Added tutorial
01:37:13 <kmc> catchy name for a language
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01:59:12 <kmc> not really
02:00:07 <shachaf> there ain't no party like a turing machine party, 'cause a turing machine party don't halt
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02:19:48 <shachaf> Should password sign-in use SPEKE instead of sending an encrypted password?
02:27:45 <shachaf> int-e: Oh, SPEKE was patented until 2017!
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04:05:43 <esowiki> [[Talk:EnScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63108&oldid=63106 * A * (+183) /* Partial Interpreter */ I have no idea...
04:06:13 <esowiki> [[EnScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63109&oldid=63096 * A * (+60) /* CHS */
04:06:59 <esowiki> [[EnScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63110&oldid=63109 * A * (+83)
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06:30:29 <shachaf> Can music notation be made Turing-complete?
06:48:30 <esowiki> [[Talk:EnScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63111&oldid=63108 * JonoCode9374 * (+138) /* Partial Interpreter */
07:01:54 <moony> shachaf, there are some turing complete notations out there
07:02:57 <moony> but i can't think of any examples
07:08:14 <myname> well, you have more than 0 symbols, therefore it can be made tc, i guess
07:08:44 <shachaf> usually you need at least 2 cymbals to get anything done
07:09:26 <shachaf> unary percussion is not very common
07:09:54 <myname> iirc there is a unary bf derivate
07:10:35 <shachaf> unary bricks for unary brains
07:11:53 <myname> i mean, it's not elegant but you can be trivially tc if you just take the number of notes as an unary description of some program
07:13:27 <shachaf> what's the sound of one percussion instrument computing?
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08:12:49 <esowiki> [[Talk:EnScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63112&oldid=63111 * A * (+359) /* Partial Interpreter */
08:13:16 <esowiki> [[Talk:EnScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63113&oldid=63112 * A * (+12) /* Partial Interpreter */
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08:33:59 <esowiki> [[Talk:EnScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63114&oldid=63113 * A * (+2626) /* Partial Interpreter */
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08:39:38 <esowiki> [[Curlyfrick]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=63115 * JonoCode9374 * (+4377) This is why we don't make esolangs at 7am in the morning.
08:43:10 <esowiki> [[Curlyfrick/Interpreter]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=63116 * JonoCode9374 * (+5090) Made in two hours... watch this space
08:43:53 <esowiki> [[Curlyfrick]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63117&oldid=63115 * JonoCode9374 * (+25) Forgot a category
08:45:34 <esowiki> [[Curlyfrick/Interpreter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63118&oldid=63116 * JonoCode9374 * (+3) Fixed a syntax error
08:51:04 <esowiki> [[Curlyfrick/Interpreter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63119&oldid=63118 * JonoCode9374 * (+62) Fixed a few more things
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09:01:21 <esowiki> [[Curlyfrick/Interpreter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63120&oldid=63119 * JonoCode9374 * (+1) Fixed a few errors
09:02:00 <esowiki> [[Curlyfrick]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63121&oldid=63117 * JonoCode9374 * (-123) Syntax change
09:02:25 <esowiki> [[Curlyfrick]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63122&oldid=63121 * JonoCode9374 * (+1) /* Truth Machine */
09:11:11 <esowiki> [[Curlyfrick/Interpreter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63123&oldid=63120 * JonoCode9374 * (+51) Still fixing a few bugs
09:12:56 <esowiki> [[Curlyfrick/Interpreter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63124&oldid=63123 * JonoCode9374 * (+11) I don't think there will be anymore changes
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09:19:42 <esowiki> [[Curlyfrick]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63125&oldid=63122 * JonoCode9374 * (+841) /* Examples */
09:21:52 <esowiki> [[Curlyfrick]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63126&oldid=63125 * JonoCode9374 * (+2) /* Hello, World! */
09:23:16 <esowiki> [[Curlyfrick]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63127&oldid=63126 * JonoCode9374 * (+3)
10:03:27 <esowiki> [[Talk:EnScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63128&oldid=63114 * A * (-2626) /* Partial Interpreter */ I can't pop the queue...
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10:37:10 <esowiki> [[Talk:EnScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63129&oldid=63128 * A * (+209) /* Partial Interpreter */ Nice, I did it in Python (partially)
10:39:05 <esowiki> [[Talk:EnScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63130&oldid=63129 * A * (+78) /* Partial Interpreter */
10:39:56 <esowiki> [[Talk:EnScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63131&oldid=63130 * A * (+71) /* Partial Interpreter */
11:18:20 <esowiki> [[Talk:EnScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63132&oldid=63131 * A * (+504) /* Partial Interpreter */
11:35:24 <esowiki> [[Talk:EnScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63133&oldid=63132 * A * (+33) /* Partial Interpreter */
11:49:32 <esowiki> [[Curlyfrick]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63134&oldid=63127 * A * (+143) This is very boring. (I hate BF)
11:49:45 <esowiki> [[Curlyfrick]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63135&oldid=63134 * A * (-1) /* Infinite loop= */ Oops
11:54:25 <esowiki> [[Curlyfrick]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63136&oldid=63135 * A * (+46) Examples are so easy to make. I have another one.
11:59:39 <esowiki> [[Curlyfrick]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63137&oldid=63136 * A * (+82) BTW my brain works the best at 7 a.m.
12:02:32 <esowiki> [[Talk:EnScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63138&oldid=63133 * A * (+68) /* Partial Interpreter */
13:03:00 <esowiki> [[Jungle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63139&oldid=63086 * Madk * (+37) /* Nodes */ Include "wrapped" flag within node properties description
13:05:56 <esowiki> [[Jungle]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63140&oldid=63139 * Madk * (+0) /* Node arguments */ Fix not strictly accurate description of "prev" node argument
13:36:23 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63141&oldid=63103 * A * (+230) Add one
13:36:32 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63142&oldid=63141 * A * (-1) /* Write some nonsense here */
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15:09:09 <dog_star> shachaf: are you familiar with lilypond?
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17:37:55 <esowiki> [[Blockfunge]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=63143 * CraftSpider * (+6464) Create Blockfunge language page
17:40:09 <esowiki> [[Blockfunge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63144&oldid=63143 * CraftSpider * (+5) Fix pipe char in instruction list
17:41:33 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63145&oldid=62855 * CraftSpider * (+17) Added blockfunge
17:50:05 <esowiki> [[Blockfunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63146&oldid=63144 * CraftSpider * (+1353) Fill out instruction definitions
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23:32:40 <Sgeo__> If NodeJS were to start fresh, would the stdlib use Promises instead of error-first callbacks?
23:33:12 <shachaf> who's starting it fresh twh
23:33:50 <Sgeo__> Just thinking about how... new it is and it already has legacy crap
23:35:11 <kmc> burn it down
23:37:16 <shachaf> how should i do simple cross-platform event handling
23:37:22 <shachaf> is there a good answer that isn't callbacks
23:53:48 <kmc> i do not know or care
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23:56:04 <shachaf> what is the deal with saying "i do not know or care", though?
00:01:49 <shachaf> do you mean it as hostilely as i read it
00:02:06 <shachaf> or is it more of a defensive thing after being barraged with questions you don't care about, or something
00:03:12 <shachaf> is it a thing you're aware of that sometimes you do things that make people sad at seemingly no benefit to you
00:03:55 <shachaf> why am i even saying these things
00:04:51 <shachaf> especially in a publicly logged channel. bad idea.
00:06:14 <int-e> `quote indifference
00:06:14 <HackEso> 1320) <shachaf> int-e does not like this [...] <int-e> shachaf: I experience heightened levels of indifference :P <shachaf> Higher than your usual? <int-e> who cares?
00:17:05 <kmc> i didn't especially mean it to be hostile, but curt sure
00:17:10 <kmc> I am not in a terribly good mood
00:17:12 <kmc> and yes I do know that
00:17:20 <kmc> and it's why I've stopped trying to hang out with you
00:17:28 <kmc> because one of us ends up upsetting the other
00:17:40 <kmc> anyway i'm sorry i hurt you
00:17:55 <shachaf> that was ruder than i intended it on rereading
00:18:04 <kmc> it's amazing that i still have any friends at all
00:18:17 <shachaf> anyway this didn't hurt me or anything but i just don't know how to read what you say
00:19:19 <kmc> the fact that i hurt people with seemingly no benefit is not unrelated to the fact that i'm spending a lot of time and money on therapy and things like that
00:19:22 <shachaf> also i wrote more words and then didn't send them because whatever
00:19:32 <kmc> today in therapy i cried a lot, more than i ever have in the past
00:19:56 <kmc> life's hard and it takes a lot of energy not to give up entirely
00:21:06 <kmc> honestly i'm not sure why you still want to talk to me, it's definitely not something i am pushing for
00:21:20 <kmc> not that i wouldn't want to be friends hypothetically but it doesn't seem to work very well?
00:21:54 <kmc> i'll miss you
00:21:59 <kmc> but there you go. life is sad
00:22:05 <kmc> what more is there to say
00:23:48 <kmc> I am not trying to be mean, just honest
00:23:55 <kmc> but if I upset you further then I'm sorry
00:25:08 <pikhq_> I don't think you're being mean or upsetting, you're just being upset.
00:25:16 <pikhq_> Which is unfortunate, because you deserve to be happy.
00:25:48 <kmc> so they say
00:27:09 <kmc> i mean really nobody deserves anything
00:27:13 <kmc> the universe is cold and uncaring
00:29:48 <shachaf> kmc: based on past experience i don't think i should take what you're saying at face value
00:30:14 <kmc> I'm not really sure what that means
00:30:34 <kmc> i don't like it when people don't believe me when i'm describing my own feelings
00:32:28 <shachaf> i think your feelings are what you say but your suggested remedy/assessment of the situation that distancing people from you would be the best thing to do may be more a way of expressing them than actually what you think is best
00:34:43 <kmc> not distancing from all people
00:37:26 <kmc> I don't know a way to say this that doesn't sound dickish but I have to prioritize maintaining my relationships, such as with my wife
00:37:40 <kmc> I only have so much energy each day to deal with interpersonal conflicts
00:37:41 <kmc> often none
00:37:58 <kmc> and you are somewhat inscrutable, which is something i love about you but also makes things hard sometimes
00:38:06 <kmc> i'm not sure I can do right by you as a friend at this point in time :(
00:39:42 <kmc> i don't know
00:39:49 <kmc> i've had an emotionally exhausting day and I also have to go now
00:40:39 <shachaf> my attempts to move the conversation out of this channel sure weren't successful
00:40:58 <pikhq_> Public logging is sometimes skow.
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00:49:11 <kmc> maybe you can just give me space instead of asking if I'm aware that I'm a broken person when I clearly already am
00:49:16 <kmc> also I didn't get a PM
00:51:29 <shachaf> the attempts were mostly internal
00:51:36 <shachaf> obviously i said the wrong thing
01:01:01 <kmc> 11[6~[6~[5~[6~[6~I don't think that's obvious?
01:01:17 <kmc> I guess some of the things you said might be.
01:01:21 <kmc> but whatever
01:02:59 <kmc> I'm not really upset or anything
01:03:02 <kmc> it is what it is
01:07:07 <shachaf> i won't continue the conversation in here
01:07:19 <shachaf> and i get the feeling you don't want to continue it at all, and it's already painful
01:07:43 <shachaf> so i guess i'll go with whatever
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02:33:08 <esowiki> [[Keg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63147&oldid=62975 * A * (-1) /* Truth-machine */ Golfed it
02:36:19 <moony> i wonder if x86-64 without MOV (and without memory indexing operands) is TC
02:36:40 <moony> ..i already answered the question directly after asking
02:36:58 <moony> it is, because you can modify ESP and push/pop to modify the values at ESP
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05:53:08 <esowiki> [[Talk:Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63148&oldid=61734 * A * (+238)
05:55:03 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63149&oldid=62970 * Salpynx * (+43) link to the wayback template so I can find the format guide quickly
05:55:27 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63150&oldid=63149 * Salpynx * (-9)
06:21:35 <esowiki> [[Waduzitdo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63151&oldid=25345 * Salpynx * (+282) /* External resources */ Link to scan of original BYTE article, and archive of 2001 geocites page
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07:32:53 <b_jonas> moony: it's not, because without MOV you can't change to protected mode, and so you're stuck with a 2**32 byte sized memory
07:33:49 <b_jonas> or do you mean you can use MOV during initialization, and you're asking this after a sufficiently prepared state?
07:40:56 <moony> yea i mean without MOV already in x86-64 mode.
07:41:48 <int-e> b_jonas: so attach a memory-mapped tape device ;-)
07:42:12 <int-e> (Also, I don't see how things are any better with 2^64 bytes?)
07:42:26 <int-e> (Which the hardware doesn't support anyway.)
07:42:55 <b_jonas> int-e: or one of those things that let 32-bit mode access more than 2**32 memory by translating the address after the page translation. I think some x86 cpus had that built in back in the 32-bit era.
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10:23:55 <esowiki> [[Talk:Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63156&oldid=63155 * A * (+75)
10:24:23 <esowiki> [[Talk:Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63157&oldid=63156 * A * (-1831) Clear the trivial "issue"
10:25:23 <esowiki> [[Talk:Keg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63158&oldid=63157 * A * (+1831) Undo revision 63157 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]]): I was referring to the wrong command!
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13:41:41 <esowiki> [[Virage]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=63168 * TuxCrafting * (+12775) Created page with "Virage (meaning "turn" in French) is an esoteric programming language created by [[User:TuxCrafting]] where the source code is a graph. = Structure = A Virage prog..."
13:46:30 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63169&oldid=63145 * TuxCrafting * (+13) add virage
13:46:51 <esowiki> [[User:TuxCrafting]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63170&oldid=62854 * TuxCrafting * (+13) add virage here too
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14:12:00 <esowiki> [[Talk:EnScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63172&oldid=63138 * A * (+89) /* Partial Interpreter */
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14:12:50 <esowiki> [[Talk:EnScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63173&oldid=63172 * A * (+0) /* Partial Interpreter */
14:19:12 <esowiki> [[Virage]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63174&oldid=63171 * TuxCrafting * (+68)
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14:38:56 <HackEso> olist 1166: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
15:13:05 <int-e> Krosp has such a tender heart... oh never mind, it was just a moment of weakness.
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15:50:08 <tswett[m]> Hey guys, I found a proof that the Goldbach conjecture has no counterexamples.
15:50:35 <tswett[m]> As we all know, proofs are programs. It's the Curry–Howard isomorphism. So, I will write my proof in the form of a Haskell function.
15:51:05 <tswett[m]> Specifically, it's a function which takes a counterexample to the Goldbach conjecture, and returns an element of the empty set.
15:53:18 <int-e> Haskell isn't CoC.
15:54:52 <wob_jonas> tswett: can you prove that that function always terminates when its argument is a counterexample to the Goldbach conjecture?
15:55:12 <int-e> wob_jonas: it terminates
15:55:28 <int-e> > let proof n = case n of { } in proof 42
15:55:30 <lambdabot> *Exception: <interactive>:3:15-18: Non-exhaustive patterns in case
15:57:41 <wob_jonas> > let { proof n case n of {}; r = proof 186803990081254951360650807581609432561028064993598266574298369375826335316603; } in seq r "terminates"
15:57:43 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:15: error: parse error on input ‘case’
15:57:58 <wob_jonas> > let { proof n = case n of {}; r = proof 186803990081254951360650807581609432561028064993598266574298369375826335316603; } in seq r "terminates"
15:58:00 <lambdabot> "*Exception: <interactive>:3:17-20: Non-exhaustive patterns in case
15:58:34 <tswett[m]> wob_jonas: Just pass in any counterexample, and you'll see that it terminates.
15:59:30 <int-e> wob_jonas: that's an odd counterexample
15:59:35 <wob_jonas> tswett[m]: that's not enough. I'd have to test for all counterexamples, not just one, and I don't have that much time
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16:00:21 <wob_jonas> tswett[m]: also, I don't think that's how the Curry-Howard isomorphism works
16:00:41 <tswett[m]> I don't think it will take much time at all.
16:01:04 <wob_jonas> how? aren't there like infinitely many counterexamples?
16:01:24 <int-e> wob_jonas: the conjecture talks about even numbers
16:01:36 <wob_jonas> > let { proof n = case n of {}; r = proof 186803990081254951360650807581609432561028064993598266574298369375826335316602; } in seq r "terminates"
16:01:38 <lambdabot> "*Exception: <interactive>:3:17-20: Non-exhaustive patterns in case
16:01:46 <Taneb> Oh, I was thinking about the twin primes conjecture
16:01:47 <tswett[m]> Of course not. But I suppose there are infinitely many potential counterexamples.
16:02:18 <tswett[m]> And in order to test my function, I suppose you'd have to run through *all* potential counterexamples.
16:02:35 <wob_jonas> I only have to run it for the actual counterexamples
16:02:38 <int-e> 186803990081254951360650807581609432561028064993598266574298369375826335316602 = 149 + p
16:02:45 <wob_jonas> and I can test which numbers are counterexamples in advance
16:03:15 <wob_jonas> int-e: yeah, that one isn't a counterexample. nor is 42 I think.
16:04:00 <int-e> we have good reason to believe in the Goldbach conjecture. But we'll never prove it ;-)
16:05:01 <tswett[m]> Clearly, proving that a set A is empty, by purportedly giving a list of all of its elements, and pointing out that your own list is empty, isn't very satisfactory. :D
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17:28:47 <arseniiv> tswett[m]: looks a lot like a proof that all horses are the same color :D
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18:03:24 <int-e> arseniiv: ... one one side
18:04:57 <int-e> <span style="xkcd">My hobby: Combining several thematic jokes into one in order to make them more funny.</span>
18:06:04 <int-e> And I had not even seen today's xkcd!
18:07:38 <arseniiv> int-e: I think that is from another joke :)
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20:12:17 <b_jonas> hehe, encoding audio to flac is so unexpectedly fast that I interrupted the process because I assumed there was some silent error
20:26:49 <b_jonas> it helped that the first few tracks to encode were short
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22:14:16 <esowiki> [[Blockfunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63176&oldid=63146 * CraftSpider * (+13) All operators read stack top-down
22:27:40 <esowiki> [[Blockfunge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63177&oldid=63176 * CraftSpider * (+178) Clarify current interpreter limitations
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22:52:17 <zzo38> I looked at the document for designing the bit manipulation instructions of RISC-V. I would want the SADD and MOR instructions of MMIX, and we can do without the others (other than what the core already has, such as bitwise AND, and so on).
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01:39:27 <Sgeo__> WebAssembly reminds me of NewSpeak: Immutable modules that need to have functions passed into them
01:49:57 <ski> passed, how ?
02:04:56 <Sgeo__> When you instantiate a WebAssembly module, you give it an object of imports. When the WebAssembly code wants to import something, it comes from that object. There's no other way for WebAssembly code to access host functionality
02:09:52 <ski> so you link imports to it, externally then ?
02:10:10 <ski> i assume Gilad Bracha might like that
02:11:24 <shachaf> Is that different from an ELF file or whatever the regular computer equivalent is?
02:11:31 <zzo38> I think thiat is good. But, I think there should be a implementation to use in C, rather than only JavaScript
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02:13:12 <shachaf> I wrote some webassembly code by hand: http://slbkbs.org/tmp/webasm-by-hand.html
02:13:37 <shachaf> I'll probably emit some at one point.
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02:18:15 * ski . o O ( "A Ban on Imports" by Gilad Bracha in 2009-06-30 at <https://gbracha.blogspot.com/2009/06/ban-on-imports.html> )
02:26:22 <zzo38> Another way is you can import, but only the interface can be imported, and then you can substitute other implementations. In C you can use a #include command to load a header file, but the implementations of function in other file which is not part of the first one, and then link it together afterward. You can also modify the header file in case some macros may be different, too.
02:26:59 <zzo38> However, this requires that it is global for the entire program, rather than having parameters you can do it locally too. But, even in C, you could do dynamic loading, too.
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02:31:00 <shachaf> whoa, https://gist.github.com/pervognsen/0e1be3b683d62b16fd81381c909bf67e is such a reasonable way to think of multidimensional arrays.
02:32:01 <zzo38> shachaf: I looked at the code. It won't work on the web browser that I have, but it does work on my computer, on Node.js version 8 (I have both version 8 and version 6 installed, because there is a package for version 6 but version 8 I have to install manually)
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02:59:02 <zzo38> I wrote some more ideas I had about making Magic: the Gathering cards in RDF, and here is another example of a code: [:when [:upkeep :you]; :do [:sacrifice [:and [:not :this], :creature]; :else [:damage 7; :to :you]]]
03:01:08 <zzo38> Do you think this is good?
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04:27:47 <esowiki> [[Fm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63179&oldid=13048 * Salpynx * (+518) So glad I found these archived, the geocities content is not saved anywhere!
04:52:31 <esowiki> [[Subleq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63180&oldid=54976 * Salpynx * (+112) /* External resources */ add a Ruby interpreter found on github
05:15:52 <esowiki> [[Mouse]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63181&oldid=40936 * Salpynx * (+143) /* External resources */ link to original 1979 article
05:16:27 <esowiki> [[Mouse]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63182&oldid=63181 * Salpynx * (+4) /* History */ link to a stub for MUSYS
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06:21:09 <ski> shachaf : oh, interesting :)
06:24:42 * ski . o O ( "Blitter Hardware / DMA Channels" (in "Amiga Hardware Reference Manual") (see the part about "modulos") at <http://amigadev.elowar.com/read/ADCD_2.1/Hardware_Manual_guide/node011B.html> )
06:30:06 <zzo38> ski: That was what I thought too (although I have never used Amiga).
06:30:27 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you like this article?
06:30:46 <ski> zzo38 : i suppose you've encountered a similar technique somewhere else ?
06:31:12 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, I think that is good (for some kind of purposes, at least).
06:31:39 <zzo38> ski: No; I thought of Amiga, because I know a few things about it.
06:31:41 <shachaf> Uh, I mean the one about multidimensional arrays, not about Amiga.
06:31:55 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, that is what I expected you meant
06:32:47 <shachaf> What kinds of array types should a language have? It seems like there are so many variants.
06:33:20 <shachaf> * Array of N elements, N known statically.
06:33:22 <zzo38> Depend on the programming language, I think. I would just have, you can define your own.
06:33:23 <shachaf> * Array of N elements, N known dynamically.
06:34:00 <shachaf> * Array of N elements with maximum capacity M, N dynamic, M static.
06:34:04 <shachaf> * Array of N elements with maximum capacity M, N and M dynamic.
06:34:58 <shachaf> Some languages might let you define an array type with a size that's either known statically or dynamically, though I'm not sure how you'd do that without the whole thing being a complicated disaster.
06:34:59 <ais523> for high-level languages I rather like the approach where you have something dictionary-like that can be indexed with /anything/, but some helpers for if you happen to use consecutive integers
06:35:33 <shachaf> I mean a low-level language where you're concerned with exact memory layout and ownership.
06:36:18 * ski . o O ( "Single Assignment C" <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SA-C_(programming_language)>,<http://www.cs.colostate.edu/cameron/SACoverview.html> )
06:36:35 <ais523> Rust's approach seems to work fairly well; it supports four of the items on your list as language primitives or really core standard library elements
06:36:51 <ais523> *T, [T; N], [T], (not available), Vec<T>
06:37:03 <zzo38> I think what C does is fine, although I would do that you can define your own type and how it is passed and whatever other details it is
06:37:29 <ais523> arrays are second-class in C
06:37:34 <ski> `M' is an upper bound of `N' ?
06:37:35 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: M': not found
06:37:51 <ais523> I think it would be an improvement to have them as first-class, like structs are
06:37:56 <shachaf> There are several options I haven't mentioned, such as the one where the array "owns" the memory and where it doesn't.
06:38:15 <ais523> well, dynamic sizing is tied to owning memory
06:38:38 <ais523> if you don't own the memory you typically can't resize it, if you do, the only thing preventing a resize would be pointers into the array from outside
06:38:54 <shachaf> Well, you could have capacity M, size N, and no way to grow the capacity.
06:39:03 <ais523> (in Rust you can't mutate anything which has an outside pointer, so in Rust, the ability to mutate a Vec also lets you resize it)
06:39:32 <shachaf> Only if the vec is allocated with malloc/free.
06:39:48 <ais523> Vec is specifically an array that owns its memory
06:39:55 <ais523> but it's normally used for growable arrays
06:39:57 <shachaf> It might just be statically allocated, or allocated in an arena or something.
06:40:33 <ais523> if it's statically allocated it doesn't own its memory, right? the executable image does
06:40:45 <ais523> I guess resizing an array could move it into or out of an arena
06:41:08 <shachaf> OK, sure. What I mean is that having both capacity and size is distinct from owning the memory.
06:42:06 <ski> zzo38 : it's not clear (to me) what "define your own type and how it is passed and whatever other details it is" would mean, in terms of language design
06:42:07 <shachaf> Possibly it's not very useful in practice, but I suspect it's moderately useful.
06:43:33 <zzo38> ski: What I thought, you can define parameterized types, including with different kinds (like is possible in Haskell, for example, but not Haskell), and then you can define the characteristics for a type, and you can also define your own characteristics, too. Such characteristics can include defining variables, reading, writing, etc, using macros to convert the operations into LLVM codes.
06:44:05 <shachaf> There's a feature related to this that C++ doesn't really support, which is to have something which can either be a compile-time argument or a runtime argument.
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06:44:07 <ais523> well, from a low-level perspective, capacity is the only thing that really matters; size is just a declaration of intent about how you're using the data
06:44:20 <shachaf> C++ supports the former with templates and the latter with arguments, but it doesn't let you abstract over them.
06:44:30 <ais523> you can plausibly imagine one array having multiple different sizes because it's partially initialized to different extents at multiple different abstraction levels
06:44:56 <shachaf> ais523: Well, sure, but in C I often store the size along with the poitner because I want to operate on only the valid elements.
06:45:12 <ski> it's interesting that you can do `void frob(const size_t M,const size_t N,int (*parr)[M][N]) { ..(*parr)[i][j].. }' (VLA) in C. however, neither `int (*blub(const size_t N))[N] { ... }', nor `struct { const size_t N; int (*parr)[N]; }' works, aiui
06:45:36 <shachaf> In practice storing the size is very common.
06:45:43 <ais523> shachaf: right; it's just that "valid" is a relative concept and storing it in the array seems wrong in a sense because there's no obvious reason to have exactly one of it (besides the capacity)
06:45:53 <shachaf> You also might want bounds checking to check the size rather than the capacity.
06:46:04 <ski> ais523 : by "first-class", i assume that you mean that you can pass them as parameters to, and result from, functions, and assign them ?
06:46:37 <shachaf> I agree that it would be nicer if C arrays were first-class. The meaning of foo(int x[4]) is silly.
06:46:39 <ais523> the most useful use for it is "number of elements that are validly initialized", meaning that you have to run their destructors when the array dies, can't read past the end of the allocated area (but can write), etc.
06:46:54 <ais523> shachaf: foo(int x[static 4])
06:47:00 <zzo38> Anyways, I don't use foo(int x[4]) in C.
06:47:03 <shachaf> The meaning of that is still silly.
06:47:06 <ais523> admittedly, it still probably doesn't really do what you want, but it's a start
06:47:20 <shachaf> struct T { int x[4]; }; foo(T t); has the more reasonable meaning.
06:47:49 <esowiki> [[MUSYS]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=63183 * Salpynx * (+1513) I'm still trying to track down the full description of this language...
06:47:50 <ais523> but valid initialisation is a high-level concept
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06:48:14 <ski> zzo38 : "like is possible in Haskell, for example, but not Haskell" ?
06:48:15 <shachaf> I do use foo(int x[static N]) in C code -- I've never seen anyone else do it -- but only in particular cases like the output of a hash function or something.
06:48:25 <shachaf> ais523: Arrays are also a high-level concept.
06:48:36 <zzo38> Do you want the LLVM type [4 x i32] or whatever to be the type of the argument?
06:48:50 <ais523> zzo38: yes, that's how it would compile in LLVM
06:48:53 <shachaf> If you have a for-each loop, for (T x : a) { ... }, that would presumably use the size.
06:48:58 <zzo38> ski: I mean what I am describing is not Haskell, but it has parameterized types with kinds is similar to how Haskell is doing.
06:49:08 <zzo38> (although not quite, but it is a bit similar)
06:49:15 <ais523> although, hmm, I'm not sure if it should be by-reference or by-value
06:49:30 <ais523> I guess it has to be by-value for consistency, but that would seem /really/ weird to C programmers
06:50:08 <ais523> shachaf: actually that feels wrong too, why would an object necessarily have only one iterator?
06:50:30 <shachaf> That seems like a pretty natural thing to do.
06:50:34 <ski> zzo38 : what does "define the characteristics for a type" and "define your own characteristics" mean, from an abstract programming language perspective, divorced from particular implemention ?
06:50:45 <ais523> C programmers are used to arrays not supporting useful operations like copying them
06:51:02 <ais523> passing a VLA by value seems even weirder
06:51:20 <shachaf> It would be fine for it to be an error.
06:51:22 <ais523> (I think that isn't possible in Rust? I don't think it can pass !Sized things by value)
06:51:27 <shachaf> I think that's better than the current semantics.
06:51:45 <ski> ais523 : "size" (vs "capacity") is about which part of the storage can be assumed to hold data properly initialized to the indicated extent, yes ?
06:51:56 <zzo38> ski: Let me to think how to explain better
06:52:05 <ski> (ais523 : oh. i wrote that before seeing your next statement :)
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06:54:05 <zzo38> ski: For example, there may be one characteristic for assignment, one for assignment through a pointer, one for a function call, one for taking the address of a function, one for declaring a global variable, and so on; you can define your own characteristics for your own operations. These may expand them into macros, and the macros may then expand into LLVM codes, or may define other macros or do other things.
06:54:51 <esowiki> [[MUSYS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63184&oldid=63183 * Salpynx * (+127) /* External resources */ link to macrogenerator article
06:55:09 <ski> shachaf : yes, however the size sometimes isn't stored directly next to the storage reference (as i'm sure you know). e.g. `exists m,n. int[m][n]'
06:55:43 <zzo38> (System include files would include many macros for converting C types into LLVM types, and for filling in the target datalayout and target triple in the LLVM code)
06:55:59 * ski agrees with ais523's "storing it in the array seems wrong"
06:57:01 <shachaf> Hmm. What would you do instead?
06:57:45 <ski> hmm .. is `void foo(const size_t N,int x[static N]) { ... }' possible, in C ?
06:59:24 <shachaf> I guess it could have some meaning.
07:00:43 <ski> zzo38 : "like is possible in Haskell, for example, but not Haskell" sounded self-contradictory, to me
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07:01:56 <ski> zzo38 : i'm still not really understanding what you're talking about, in your descriptions about user-declared "characteristics" for data types. perhaps some example(s) would help elucidate ?
07:03:47 <ski> shachaf : "What would you do instead?" -- i'm not arguing that having the effect of "storing it in the array" should be avoided. i'm just saying that, at least in a more desugared/primitive view, "storing it in the array" should be seen as an extra wrapping, around "the array"
07:03:54 <zzo38> One example would be the sizeof operator in C. If you use the system macros then this characteristic is automatically defined for you, but if you don't, then you must either define it yourself or else the type does not have a size.
07:05:30 <ski> zzo38 : are you saying that `sizeof T', for some type `T' (in scope), may not work, unless appropriate header files defining macros have been included ?
07:05:50 <shachaf> I've been trying to describe how you'd write some of these array types in C++ but I'm not sure C++ can even express it.
07:05:53 <zzo38> Also some parameterized types may require certain characteristics (an example is that an ordinary pointer type requires a size of the type pointed to if you will make pointer arithmetic, allocations, etc)
07:06:23 <ski> <shachaf> There's a feature related to this that C++ doesn't really support, which is to have something which can either be a compile-time argument or a runtime argument.
07:06:26 <ski> <shachaf> C++ supports the former with templates and the latter with arguments, but it doesn't let you abstract over them.
07:06:38 <ski> from one POV, this is a matter of partial evaluation
07:07:16 <ski> (at least the first message)
07:07:33 <zzo38> ski: That is the case, although not exactly what I meant. What I meant is that if you use a macro to define a type (for example, the "struct" macro) then it may define the "sizeof" characteristic of that type too, but if you use the primitive operations to define a type then you must define all of its characteristics by yourself (and if they are incorrect, then your program probably will not work).
07:08:02 <ski> i suppose if you want to generalize over variables ranging over phases, that could be more involved
07:08:31 <shachaf> ski: I don't think that point of view makes things simpler, rather than more complicated.
07:08:36 <zzo38> (The characteristics are optional, but some operations, and some parameterized types, may require certain characteristics; if it is specified to require it and it doesn't have it, then it is a compiler error.)
07:09:27 <ski> zzo38 : i'm not convinced it's useful to think of a "pointer" as "potentially pointing to a sequence of values of the requisite type"
07:10:25 <shachaf> The way it conflates arrays and pointers in some places and not others is tricky.
07:12:28 <ski> zzo38 : hm, what is this `struct' macro you're talking about ? or maybe you don't mean "macro" in the sense of CPP, but rather in terms of implementation, like how you can describe "`struct's" in assembler, via symbols bound to appropriate offset/size values ?
07:12:40 * ski nods to shachaf re partial evaluation
07:13:13 <shachaf> Ignoring that particular subtlety for a moment, you can imagine writing in C++:
07:13:34 <shachaf> template<typename T, int size> struct StaticArray { T *ptr; };
07:13:47 <shachaf> template<typename T> struct DynamicArray; { T *ptr; int size; };
07:14:08 <shachaf> And most of the code for those two types would be almost identical.
07:14:39 <zzo38> ski: Well, it is more powerful than C macros. But you can enter the code directly without using macros, which would just be LLVM codes (with the proper wrapping needed by the compiler).
07:15:33 <zzo38> (You could perform any kind of computations in these more powerful macros, and also affect other macros with it, and other stuff)
07:16:21 <ski> template<typename T> struct DynamicArray; { int size; struct StaticArray<T,size> arr; };
07:17:01 <shachaf> ski: How would that work? size isn't known at compile-time.
07:18:02 <shachaf> There's the separate and important issue that an array isn't really a pointer so this isn't right anyway.
07:18:21 <shachaf> You want sizeof StaticArray to be the size of the elements, not the size of a pointer.
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07:20:36 <ski> i'm pondering a situation where we could pass a skolem `size', as opposed to only a literal, to `StaticArray'
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07:20:59 <ski> (perhaps it shouldn't be called `StaticArray', though)
07:21:18 <shachaf> I think I gave a bad example anyway.
07:21:33 <shachaf> StaticArray and DynamicArray should actually be quite different.
07:21:46 <ski> yea, iiuc, you want to change `T *ptr' to `T arr[size]', yes ?
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07:22:24 <shachaf> Or maybe to char mem[sizeof (T) * size]; or something.
07:22:55 <ski> zzo38 : well, i want (reasonably) high-level ways to reason about these "macros". specifically, i want to be able to reason about them in a way that isn't merely in terms of what an implementation happens to do
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07:24:35 <shachaf> But now I'm not really sure what DynamicArray should be.
07:25:00 <ski> template<size_t size,typename T> struct StaticArray { T arr[size]; };
07:25:05 <ski> template<typename T> struct DynamicArray { size_t size; T ptr[size]; };
07:25:09 <ski> is that closer ?
07:25:31 <zzo38> Because it is macros, they can be defined differently and therefore can do differently. The compiler would just expand the definition and use that to do such things as perform computations, emit LLVM codes, affect other macros, and insert stuff into the AST of the source code where the macro is placed; but, you can still use them for high-level purposes, and like if you use FILE* in C you don't have to know exactly how FILE is defined, it is same
07:26:09 <shachaf> ski: OK, this has clarified things a bit for me.
07:26:28 <ski> zzo38 : cut off near ".., and like if you use FILE* in C you don't have to know exactly how FILE is defined, it is same" ?
07:26:47 <zzo38> ..., and like if you use FILE* in C you don't have to know exactly how FILE is defined, it is same kind of thing here.
07:27:07 <shachaf> When I pass someone a pointer to some memory, the array size isn't going to be next to the data.
07:27:17 <shachaf> In C, I'd pass them a pointer and a size separately.
07:27:24 <ski> anyway, consier the difference between
07:27:52 <shachaf> So this DynamicArray type really should be struct { size_t size; T *ptr; };
07:27:55 <ski> template<typename T> struct DynamicArray { size_t size; struct StaticArray<size,T> arr; };
07:28:04 <ski> template<typename T> struct DynamicArrayPtr { size_t size; struct StaticArray<size,T> *parr; };
07:28:11 <shachaf> Or maybe struct { size_t size; StaticArray<T, size> *arr; };
07:28:11 <zzo38> (To do many of the things I mentioned, may need a more Lisp like syntax, although maybe with syntactic sugar for some operations.)
07:28:19 <ski> and of course
07:28:57 <ski> template<size_t M,typename T> struct DynamicArrayArr { size_t N; struct StaticArray<N,T> arr[M]; };
07:29:19 <ski> (naming is probably not that good, there)
07:29:30 <shachaf> Let's just figure out the N version without getting M involve.
07:29:42 <shachaf> It sounds like we were getting at the same thing here.
07:30:38 <shachaf> Wait, I'm confused about the third version. Is it an array of arrays?
07:30:57 <zzo38> ski: Now do you understand how I mean? Probably I am still confusing
07:31:04 <ski> my point is merely that in general you may want `exists { size_t N; Foo<StaticArray<N,T>> foo; }', for various choices of `Foo'
07:31:39 <ski> shachaf : "OK, this has clarified things a bit for me." -- oh, i'm a bit surprised to hear that
07:31:43 <shachaf> I see your point now. You might want to pass a bunch of arrays of the same size, and only pass the size once.
07:31:47 * ski feels rather confused here
07:32:03 <shachaf> ski: Just imagine how confused I must've been beforehand!
07:32:35 <shachaf> ski: I feel like fitting every use case of that form into the type system may be a fool's errand.
07:33:18 <shachaf> Although... I would like to be able to write things like "void memcpy(Str<N> dst, Str<N> src);"
07:34:45 <ski> zzo38 : to be able to use such macros sensible, without needing to hold in head all the complications of an implementation (all the optimizations, &c.), one would need some kind of abstract API (or ABI ?) for such macros, how they're (abstractly) intended to be used, so that one has a reasonable chance of statically verifying (e.g. in head) correct usage, without TIAS
07:35:29 <ski> zzo38 : e.g. sexp macros are reasonably divorced from internals of implementations
07:35:32 <zzo38> I like to be able to pass partial arrays without so much difficulty like you can in C by the use of pointer arithmetic; it seems less efficient in other programming languages
07:36:15 <zzo38> ski: What does "TIAS" means? But, yes, the macros can be used without the internals of the implementation, although so far I have not described it because it is not actually invented yet
07:36:36 <ski> shachaf : "I'd pass them a pointer and a size separately." -- is the key part i was trying to communicate, yes
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07:37:56 <ski> "Is it an array of arrays?" -- yes. you could have an array of pointers to arrays (or a pointer to such an array of pointers), if you'd prefer
07:38:22 <ski> zzo38 : "Now do you understand how I mean? Probably I am still confusing" -- perhaps somewhat
07:39:02 <ski> shachaf : "fitting every use case of that form into the type system may be a fool's errand" -- fitting in which sense ?
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07:39:15 <shachaf> ski: Anyway: I don't think the first DynamicArray you give is very useful. There's no real reason to store the size with the data.
07:40:54 <ski> (hmm .. do you mean `void memcpy(Str<N> *dst,Str<N> *src,size_t N);' or some such ?)
07:41:54 <ski> zzo38 : "Try It And See"
07:42:12 <shachaf> I'm not quite sure where N should come from.
07:42:28 <shachaf> I guess it depends on what Str is.
07:42:51 <ski> <candide> "Try It And See" may work in other languages, but not in C due to the nature of undefined behavior/unportable code. Such coding-by-experimentation often leads to situations such as "But it worked fine earlier!" and/or "But it worked on my machine!". https://goo.gl/jPWRA9
07:44:22 <ski> hmm .. i wonder what's an interesting example of mutually-dependent existentials/structs
07:46:05 <shachaf> The point is not to make an interesting type system but a simple one.
07:46:32 <ski> perhaps it should be `template<typename T> memcpy(T *dst,T *src,size_t<T> size);', where `size_t<T>' is a singleton ?
07:47:05 <ski> (yea, the mutually-dependent thing was an aside)
07:47:13 <ski> (as was the partial evaluation thing)
07:47:53 <shachaf> Why does size_t<T> being a singleton help compared to size_t?
07:48:22 <ski> we statically know it's the size of `*src' and `*dst'
07:48:46 <ski> because it uses the same `T'
07:48:54 <shachaf> Oh, T is an array type or something, not the element type.
07:49:12 <ski> `T' is any type, `int' or `int[4]' or whatever
07:49:12 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: T': not found
07:49:50 <ski> <ski> zzo38 : i'm not convinced it's useful to think of a "pointer" as "potentially pointing to a sequence of values of the requisite type"
07:50:40 <ski> (if you were doing it in C++, you could use by-reference parameters, instead of by-value, then the types of `src' and `dst' would be `T', rather than `T *')
07:51:24 <shachaf> We should probably abandon C++ notation here anyway.
07:51:33 <shachaf> I'd like a much simpler language.
07:51:52 <ski> yes, of course
07:52:14 <ski> but it may perhaps be useful to cannibalize some notions (properly construed) from e.g. C++
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07:52:51 <shachaf> I think the point about separating size from array in some cases is a good one.
07:53:09 <ski> i think there may be a nice language where one can express moves and perfect forwarding, hidden inside C++, yearning to be freed
07:54:14 <shachaf> The goal is maybe just to take the common C idiom "void f(Thing *x, size_t n);" and make it more convenient.
07:54:25 <ski> shachaf : it's basically the same argument as to why (at least last i checked) Rust doesn't have true existentials, since you can express `exists a. C a *> a', but not `exists a. C a *> F a'. at least, that was the take-home i got, when i asked about it
07:55:28 <shachaf> (This is also true of C++ vtables, of course.)
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07:55:44 <ski> (yes, and interfaces in Java)
07:56:13 <shachaf> Oh, that's probably the biggest difference between type classes and interfaces.
07:57:51 <ski> OO usage of existentials tends to bundle the operations/methods with the instance/value state. while otoh ADT usage of existentials separates them. the latter can support "binary method" operations like "merge" and "compare" readily, while attempting to express such things in the former is much more clumsy and problematic
07:58:22 <shachaf> And the same thing happens with memcpy.
07:58:50 <ski> (but then there's also the view that OO is about closures. related to the former view via `a -> b = exists x. (# x,(# x,a #) #-> b #)')
07:59:10 <ski> @where on-understanding-revisited
07:59:10 <lambdabot> "On Understanding Data Abstraction, Revisited" by William R. Cook in 2009-10 at <http://www.cs.utexas.edu/~wcook/Drafts/2009/essay.pdf>
07:59:46 <ski> elaborate on your last remark ?
08:00:00 <zzo38> I suppose the characteristics of types that I described is a bit like interface methods, but instead of methods like in object oriented programming, they have interface macros.
08:01:00 <shachaf> I mean, you can imagine having an "array" type, struct Array<T> { size_t size; T *ptr; };, representing a pointer to size elements.
08:01:21 <shachaf> Then you could write memcpy(Arr<T> dst, Arr<T> src);, and it could e.g. fail at runtime if the sizes aren't equal.
08:01:56 <shachaf> This is similar to "Ord compare(Comparable x, Comparable y);" failing at runtime when the types aren't equal.
08:02:12 <ski> yes .. and perhaps it can be useful to have some kind of more surface sugar for this notion of "bundled array"
08:02:36 <zzo38> shachaf: I think what is done in Haskell is better, you can specify the types must be the same or else it will fail at compile time.
08:03:29 <ski> `forall x. (P x -> Q x)' entails `(exists x. P x) -> (exists x. Q x)' (and also entails `(forall x. P x) -> (forall x. Q x)'), but not vice versa
08:03:30 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: forall: not found
08:03:43 <shachaf> The latter two are quite weak.
08:04:07 <shachaf> Or possibly unreasonably strong.
08:04:26 <shachaf> Before Java had generics, people would do things like that a lot.
08:04:38 <ski> the first is sortof the ADT way. the next one the OO way
08:04:42 <shachaf> You could write "Object id(Object arg);", which is like "(exists x. x) -> (exists x. x)"
08:05:27 <shachaf> Object is at the top of the type lattice. I don't think Java has something corresponding to the bottom of the type lattice, but if it did, you could write something equivalent to "(forall x. x) -> (forall x. x)"
08:05:43 <ski> (hm, i suppose that closure thing should be something something CoYoneda ?)
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08:06:38 <shachaf> Which, the unboxed tuple/function thing?
08:06:38 <ski> zzo38 : *nod*. the trick is how to be able to describe the interfaces. preferably in a static, and formal, way
08:06:58 <ski> yes (unboxedness is just a low-level thing, which you can ignore)
08:07:17 <ski> (well, not the "unboxed function", "function pointer" in C)
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08:07:35 <shachaf> CoYoneda f a = exists x. (x, f x -> a)
08:07:57 <shachaf> CoYoneda f a = exists x. (f x, x -> a)
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08:09:32 <ski> i suppose we have `exists x. (P x /\ Q x)' entailing `(exists x. P x) /\ (exists x. Q x)' (but not vice versa), and also `forall x. (P x /\ Q x)' entailing `(forall x. P x) /\ (forall x. Q x)' (and vice versa), complementing the above distribution rule (namely for use with multiple parameters, or multiple results)
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08:10:40 * ski nods re `Object',&c.
08:11:56 <ski> = exists x. x * (x -> a -> b)
08:12:00 <ski> = exists x. x * (x * a -> b)
08:12:31 <ski> however, possibly one can do something more exponentialy, here ?
08:12:54 <ski> hm, i suppose `x -> a -> b' really is `x >---> (a -> b)' anyway
08:13:39 <zzo38> In my proposed system, although there are interfaces similar to object oriented programming, they are purely compile-time interfaces, and there aren't any actual objects anywhere.
08:13:53 <ski> (curried continuations seems strange, on some leve)
08:15:26 <ski> fwiw, `exists x. (P x -> Q x)' also entails `(forall x. P x) -> (exists x. Q x)'. and there was also some (classical) variations where `\/' was used (Phoa ?)
08:16:08 <shachaf> I wonder how the linear logic connectives work here.
08:16:21 <ski> good question :)
08:16:27 <shachaf> Though this is quite far from the question of how to represent memory layout.
08:17:24 <shachaf> I think if the types get too complicated, it's better to return to the C solution of letting people specify sizes manually.
08:17:31 <ski> zzo38 : mhm. i can't say i quite see what you mean there
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08:19:50 <ski> perhaps. at least if there's static checking that the sizes are correct ?
08:20:10 <ski> <ski> shachaf : "fitting every use case of that form into the type system may be a fool's errand" -- fitting in which sense ?
08:20:35 <shachaf> I'm not sure whether the static checking in arbitrary cases (like an array of arrays that are all the same size) is worth the type system complexity.
08:21:09 <shachaf> I think I meant being able to express the size constraints correctly in the type system in every case.
08:21:43 <shachaf> This is for a language meant to compete with C.
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08:22:32 <ski> it at least ought to have (blind) universals and existentials, quantifying tyvars
08:22:34 <shachaf> But maybe it's less complex than I think, in which case it's probably a good idea.
08:22:48 * ski . o O ( BitC,Cyclone )
08:23:06 <ski> proof-erasure. no type-info passed at run-time
08:23:53 <shachaf> But most of the cases we've been discussing do pass a size at runtime.
08:23:54 <ski> (so `size_t<T>' would be an explicit way of storing the size aspect of such run-time type information)
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08:24:43 <ski> yes, but not implicitly, we had `template<typename T> memcpy(T *dst,T *src,size_t<T> size);', not `template<typename T> memcpy(T *dst,T *src);'
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08:24:56 <ski> `template' here is a universal, a `forall'
08:24:56 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: template': not found
08:25:56 <ski> (otoh, in `template<typename T> struct Foo { ..T.. };', `template' is not a universal over types, but rather over declarations)
08:27:26 <ski> (i suppose in the former case, we can also see it as being over a declaration. but we can translate to a `forall' over a type. but in the latter case, we get a type lambda, which is something else)
08:28:24 <ski> one could possibly also have non-blind quantifiers (e.g. for size of types), in such a language, if we wanted to sometimes avoid the verbosity of manually passing size
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08:29:26 <ski> or, you could have `size_t' parameters of your types, which you sometimes might want to quantify blindly over, and sometimes non-blindly
08:30:45 <shachaf> Huh, I never thought of that. template on structs means something different from functions, sort of.
08:30:56 <shachaf> (But if the struct has a method, it's back to meaning forall?)
08:31:30 <shachaf> That's not really true, they're kind of the same thing.
08:31:49 <ski> `type ReadS a = String -> [(a,String)]' conceptually is `forall a. type ReadS a = String -> [(a,String)]'. which is `type ReadS = \a. String -> [(a,String)]'
08:31:49 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: type: not found
08:32:43 <ski> while `length :: [a] -> Int' conceptually is `forall a. (length :: [a] -> Int)', which corresponds to `length :: forall a. ([a] -> Int)' (or `length :: (exists a. [a]) -> Int')
08:33:08 <ski> and `forall a. tau[a]' is very different from `\a. tau[a]'
08:33:43 <shachaf> (Though I heard Typed Racket somehow conflates them?)
08:33:44 <ski> (i once attempted to untangle such a conflation of those two things, of someone i chatted with)
08:34:14 <ski> (hm, i don't recall. i probably haven't checked Typed Racket in detail enough ?)
08:34:40 <shachaf> I think that was the language. Someone mentioned it once and I thought it was very odd.
08:34:52 <ski> could well be the case
08:35:18 <ski> (iirc, the one i was talking to at the time may have been gio123 ?)
08:35:41 <shachaf> Oh, maybe it conflated type application with forall, or something.
08:37:24 <shachaf> Man, put me in the ski fan club.
08:37:33 <shachaf> ski has all sorts of clear thinking about all sorts of things.
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08:39:16 <ski> anyway .. before this whole conversation started (just before i posted the blitter link), i composed the following (one) message :
08:39:26 <ski> one can of course think of `i * n + j' not in terms of nested/curried arrays, but in terms of structured indices (so "uncurried arrays")
08:40:09 <ski> (this was partly in relation to someone in #haskell asking about arrays, such as curried ones)
08:40:11 <shachaf> Yes, I think that's probably better.
08:40:33 <ski> if you care about it, i could perhaps go on a little about what i had in mind here
08:41:46 <ski> well, consider finite types, considered as prefixes of the natural numbers (with the arithmetic/additive ordering)
08:42:05 <shachaf> By the way, did you see my unrelated language proposal to make all functions take one argument, but not curried, and to have very convenient struct literals? I think it would be better than the usual system but I don't know of any language that does it.
08:42:48 <ski> types `Fin n' in Agda, conceptually having as values `0',..,`n-1' (so they're basically finite ordinals, or finite well-orderings (i think) corresponding to such "abstractly")
08:43:17 <ski> i did not see any such proposal. in which channel ?
08:43:54 <shachaf> It might not have been in any channel you were in. Probably only half-heartedly in any channel at all. I could say more later.
08:44:44 <ski> (btw, i think Datalog is missing records, or at least named parameters. for large relations, you don't want to have to refer to attributes/parameters by position)
08:45:10 <ski> (perhaps you could remind me later)
08:46:54 <ski> so. let's write typing judgements like `0 :< n',...,`n-1 :< n' for the "indices" in such an "finite (natural) index type" `n'
08:49:08 <ski> now, consider
08:51:04 <ski> and assume a row-major total (well-)ordering, so that we count first row as `0',`1',`2',`3',`4',`5', second as `6',`7',`8',`9',`10',`11', and so on, with last "cell" being numbered `5*6 - 1'
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08:52:39 <ski> (`5 * 6' being "five times six"/"six, five times", with `5' being the multiplier (the "counter") and `6' the multiplicand (the duplicated thing), so that we have `5 * 6' being `6 + 6 + 6 + 6 + 6', not `5 + 5 + 5 + 5 + 5 + 5')
08:52:59 <ski> now, we have an inference rule
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08:54:06 <ski> i :< m j :< n
08:54:11 <ski> ------------------ *
08:54:18 <ski> i * n + j :< m * n
08:54:44 <ski> (so `i' counts rows, and `j' counts columns / elements into a row)
08:55:30 <ski> and the index marked `+' would correspond to selecting `i' as `3' and `j' as `2', getting `3 * 6 + 2' as the element of `5 * 6'
08:55:52 <ski> of course, we have something similar for sums
08:56:35 <ski> 01234 012345
08:56:38 <ski> ***+. ......
08:56:43 <ski> 01234 012345
08:56:52 <ski> ***** *+....
08:57:04 <ski> with inference rules
09:00:34 <ski> i :< m j :< n
09:00:44 <ski> ---------- +0 -------------- +1
09:00:51 <ski> i :< m + n m + j :< m + n
09:01:37 <ski> so, in the first `+' example, we have `3 :< 5 + 6'; while in the second, we have `5 + 1 :< 5 + 6'
09:02:01 <shachaf> Tangentially, have you seen this post? https://blog.nelhage.com/2015/08/indices-point-between-elements/
09:02:36 <ski> you may think of `i * n + j',`i',`m + j' as data constructors, having `i',`j', respectively either `i' or `j' as parameters. the data constructor in the `i :< m + n' case is not notated explicitly
09:04:08 <ski> i haven't. ty for the suggestion
09:06:12 <ski> anyway, before taking the next step here, i want to introduce a dependent version of the product
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09:11:40 <shachaf> This is a dependent sum, I guess? Like a sigma?
09:13:59 <ski> so, here i in general have a type `sum_{0 =< i < m} n_i', which i'll notate as `m (>: i) * n_i'. so in this particular case, this would be `5 (>: i) * (6 - i)', where `6 - i' is valid because `i :< 5', and `5-1 =< 6' (that is perhaps not so nice a condition. let's ignore issues such as this subtraction, for now)
09:14:14 <ski> yes. this is a "ragged index type"
09:15:36 <shachaf> For an array of arrays where each subarray has a different size, but they're all packed in memory together.
09:17:11 <ski> yes, this could be used as index type for such an array (but i'm only really considering these "index types" themselves (cf. "parameter types" in "Grammatical Framework", Aarne Ranta), not, currently at least, how they could actually be used with arrays, though obviously that would hopefully be a useful application)
09:19:24 <shachaf> Presumably you'd want efficient rank/select support as well for actual indexing use.
09:21:05 <ski> (in GF, parameter types are like algebraic types, but more restricted (can't be recursive), they are used as indices of "tables", which are some sort of record or (total) finite map construction)
09:21:21 <ski> i :< m j :< n_i (i :< m)
09:21:26 <ski> -------------------------------------- *
09:21:29 <ski> i (>: i') * n_i' + j :< m (>: i) * n_i
09:22:19 <ski> here we make use of that i' :< i and also i :< m and therefore i' :< m and thus n_i' makes sense
09:22:51 <ski> we count i initial full rows, and then we count j into the `i'th row
09:23:06 <ski> makes sense ?
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09:31:54 <ski> hm, i was pondering a (partly) tangent, whether it fit in here or not. i think it may fit after the next part
09:36:52 <ski> ok, example
09:37:30 <ski> 0 01234 1 01234 2 01234 3 01234 4 01234
09:37:34 <ski> 0 ***** ***** ***** ..... .....
09:37:42 <ski> 1 ***** ***** ***** ..... .....
09:37:47 <ski> 2 ***** ***** ***+. ..... .....
09:37:53 <ski> 3 ***** ***** ..... ..... .....
09:37:55 <ski> 4 ***** ***** ..... ..... .....
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09:38:15 <ski> this is considering `5 ^ 3'
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09:43:47 <ski> inference rule
09:43:59 <ski> j_i :< n (i :< m)
09:44:02 <ski> ----------------------------- ^
09:44:05 <ski> m (>: i) * n^i * j_i :< n ^ m
09:45:49 <ski> think of `i' as counting down from `m-1' to `0'. in the above example, we have `3 (>: i) * 5^i * j_i :< 5 ^ 3', where `j_0 = 2',`j_1 = 2',`j_2 = 3'
09:46:55 <ski> er, sorry, that should be `j_2 = 2',`j_1 = 2',`j_0 = 3'
09:47:05 <ski> we could think of `3 (>: i) * 5^i * j_i' as `5^2 * 2 + 5^1 * 2 + 5^0 * 3'
09:48:00 <ski> it's also possible to formulate a dependent version, iow `n_i ^ (i :<) m', aka `product_{0 =< i < m} n_i', but i think i'll skip (rederiving) it, now
09:49:34 <ski> btw, one nice consequence of this is that if we regard `m * n' as meaning `m (>: _) * n', then if we define `C(n,k)' (where we might suppose `k :< n+2', so that the following subtraction is a natural number) as `(n - i) ^ (i :<) k'
09:51:51 <ski> then e.g. `C(3,6)' (where `6 :< 3+2' does *not* hold) would be `(3 - i) ^ (i :<) 6', which with an expansion could mean `(3 - 0) * (3 - 1) * (3 - 2) * (3 - 3) * (3 - 4) * (3 - 5)', so it looks like we're referring to negative integers here
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09:55:42 <ski> however, if we interpret this expression as `(3 - 0) (>: i_0) * (3 - 1) (>: i_1) * (3 - 2) (>: i_2) * (3 - 3) (>: i_3) * (3 - 4) (>: i_4) * (3 - 5) (>: i_5) * 1', we see that since `3 - 3' is `0', `i_3' can't exist, and so we can vacuously show the body `(3 - 4) (>: i_4) * (3 - 5) (>: i_5) * 1' (corresponding to `(3 - 4 - i') ^ (i' :<) 3') is well-formed
09:56:06 <ski> anyway. that's more or less an aside, which i thought was kind of neat
09:56:34 <ski> as you can imagine, this is more or less half-baked ideas, which i've been mulling over, occasionally, for some time
09:56:53 <ski> one could also consider other types like `n!' e.g.
09:57:02 <ski> or facoriadic number representation
09:57:29 <ski> yea, i only discussed finite index types above, but you can also, at least to some extent, consider countable ones
09:57:50 <ski> (and all these have an associated total order, or perhaps it's well-ordering)
09:59:08 <ski> (btw, you may note that there seems to be something "telescopish" going on in the `C(n,k)' example, although of a rather simple sort)
09:59:16 <ski> shachaf : i suppose that's more or less what i wanted to say about this
10:01:25 <ski> shachaf : ty again for the "Multi-dimensional array views for systems programmers" link (i have been pondering some things in a sortof related direction, i think, after hearing a talk about SA-C. but it seems that link you gave gives a much clearer picture of those things, so i'm grateful for that)
10:01:58 <ski> (i'll have to check out the "Indices point between elements" link as well, ty)
10:04:36 <shachaf> ski: Hmm, I think I was expecting this to turn back into array indexing at one point, but in retrospect that was silly.
10:07:35 <shachaf> I see how the 3D version works now.
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10:24:22 <esowiki> [[Home Row]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63185&oldid=57019 * TuxCrafting * (-1) off -> of
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10:55:22 <esowiki> [[Forth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63186&oldid=43460 * A * (+25)
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10:58:00 <esowiki> [[Forth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63187&oldid=63186 * A * (+45) /* External resources */
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12:22:07 <esowiki> [[Adar]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=63188 * TuxCrafting * (+974) Created page with "Adar is an esoteric "programming language" created by [[User:TuxCrafting]]. = Structure = An Adar program is a list of triplets of integers. Each triplet represent..."
12:23:41 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63189&oldid=63169 * TuxCrafting * (+11)
12:24:10 <esowiki> [[User:TuxCrafting]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63190&oldid=63170 * TuxCrafting * (+11)
12:39:39 <esowiki> [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63191&oldid=63188 * A * (+49) /* Infinite counter */
12:40:25 <esowiki> [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63192&oldid=63191 * A * (+24) /* Examples */ Links
12:40:47 <esowiki> [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63193&oldid=63192 * A * (+0) /* Looping counter */ Oops
12:41:41 <esowiki> [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63194&oldid=63193 * A * (+74) /* Computational class */ Some models
12:46:27 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, rust doesn't allow copying dynamically sized values. there's a proposal to allow it, with limitations, accepted but currently unimplemented: https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/48055
12:49:24 <b_jonas> ais523: basically this would allow you to create a dynamic sized array or trait object and assign it to a fresh local variable, implemented as an alloca, or pass such an object by value as a function argument, implemented as passing a pointer
12:49:41 <b_jonas> as passing a fat pointer I mean
12:49:54 <esowiki> [[Adar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63195&oldid=63194 * TuxCrafting * (+11) wording
12:50:53 <b_jonas> the first part would be somewhat similar to VLA local variables in C, though with very different syntax
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13:10:31 <esowiki> [[Adar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63196&oldid=63195 * TuxCrafting * (+698)
13:43:03 <esowiki> [[Adar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63197&oldid=63196 * TuxCrafting * (-241) simplify the language by removing the trigger value, since it is as powerful as just >= 0
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14:27:03 <esowiki> [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63198&oldid=63197 * A * (+242) /* Computational class */ Sorry, the internet bar closed, so I was inactive for a while.
14:27:31 <esowiki> [[Adar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63199&oldid=63198 * A * (-242) /* Simulating inequality to 0 */
14:28:11 <esowiki> [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63200&oldid=63199 * A * (+4) /* Adar-= */
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14:32:42 <esowiki> [[Adar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63201&oldid=63200 * A * (-2) Better wording
14:41:51 <esowiki> [[Adar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63202&oldid=63201 * A * (+12)
14:53:00 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=63203 * A * (+185) Created page with "== Adar Interpreter == Can you describe how the Adar interpreter is supposed to work? I can't get it to work. --~~~~"
14:55:00 <esowiki> [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63204&oldid=63202 * A * (+30) /* Infinite loop */
14:56:32 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63205&oldid=63203 * A * (+257)
14:57:20 <esowiki> [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63206&oldid=63204 * A * (+45) /* Computational class */
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15:02:23 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63207&oldid=63205 * A * (+373)
15:02:26 <esowiki> [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63208&oldid=63206 * TuxCrafting * (-2) no idea where you got that word, but "pair" is correct
15:02:47 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63209&oldid=63207 * A * (+62) /* JPDEC + INC is computationally equivalent to JZDEC */
15:03:11 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63210&oldid=63209 * A * (+73) /* JPDEC + INC is computationally equivalent to JZDEC */
15:03:56 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63211&oldid=63210 * A * (-13) /* Adar Interpreter */
15:04:36 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63212&oldid=63211 * A * (+1) grammar is hard
15:05:38 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63213&oldid=63212 * A * (+102) /* JPDEC + INC is computationally equivalent to JZDEC */
15:06:17 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63214&oldid=63213 * A * (+64) /* Adar Interpreter */
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15:06:53 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63215&oldid=63214 * TuxCrafting * (+277)
15:08:10 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63216&oldid=63215 * A * (-111) /* "Turing completeness proof" - invalid due to current update */
15:08:52 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63217&oldid=63216 * TuxCrafting * (-275) stop blanking your comments and breaking threads ffs
15:09:24 <esowiki> [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63218&oldid=63208 * A * (-45) /* Computational class */
15:11:43 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63219&oldid=63217 * TuxCrafting * (+394)
15:14:04 <esowiki> [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63220&oldid=63218 * A * (+241) /* Structure */ It should be noted here
15:17:16 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63221&oldid=63219 * A * (+163) /* Adar Interpreter */
15:18:48 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63222&oldid=63221 * TuxCrafting * (+314)
15:19:23 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63223&oldid=63222 * A * (+525)
15:20:54 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63224&oldid=63223 * A * (+88) End this thread
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15:48:28 <int-e> . o O ( One has to admire writers who manage to wrap up a trilogy in just three books. )
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16:11:08 <esowiki> [[Adar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63225&oldid=63220 * TuxCrafting * (+195) add truth machine
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16:18:23 <zzo38> Now that JavaScript has bigint I would also want popcount, for example if you use a bigint to store which slots are in use, to find the first unused slot by popcount(x&~(x+1n)). It can be done with emulation, but that would make it slow; a built-in popcount function would improve the speed.
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17:16:08 <zzo38> Has anyone won a game of Magic: the Gathering by taking advantage of rule 718.3?
17:21:26 <b_jonas> zzo38: dunno, you probably need Karn for that
17:24:21 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, I would think so; that is the only way to possibly invoke rule 718 anyways, as far as I can tell (rule 718.1 says so).
17:28:50 <b_jonas> it's not the only way technically
17:28:56 <b_jonas> there's Shahrazad too I think
17:29:22 <b_jonas> and maybe also drafting lots of Conspiarcy cards
17:29:55 <b_jonas> I mean Advantageous Proclamation
17:30:24 <b_jonas> hmm, would that work? you'd need seven
17:30:32 <b_jonas> should be possible in theory
17:31:06 <zzo38> Yes, Shahrazad can do that too, although the rule number is different in that case (719.3 rather than 718.3, but those rules are the same).
17:31:07 <b_jonas> I think Shahrazad is why that rule was originally there, even before Karn
17:31:36 <b_jonas> but of course Shahrazad is banned now, and I for one am glad it is
17:32:52 <b_jonas> I'm looking at the new cards from Modern Horizons that are revealed since I last saw the list. https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/117/alpine-guide is an awesome red spin on those blue scouts that search for a land.
17:34:50 <b_jonas> there are also some nice reprints
17:35:08 <b_jonas> and of course I like Changeling Outcast simply because it's a cheap changeling
17:35:55 <b_jonas> I'm not through the whole list yet
17:36:35 <b_jonas> reprinting the better cycling lands can't hurt
17:36:42 <b_jonas> though I think I prefer the old art
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17:49:37 <b_jonas> I'd seen Defile last week already. That will be a nice addition to black's arsenal of cheap D removal spells, such as Disfigure, Deathmark, Doom Blade
17:54:05 <zzo38> In GURPS game I play my character is Ziveruskex and his friend's name is Strixan, I thought, to make up a Magic: the Gathering cards of it? I also thought of a idea of a keyword ability called "disable". A creature that is tapped, detained, or attacking, cannot use the disable ability; otherwise it is declared when declaring attacking and then the opponent's creature is tapped and detained.
17:54:53 <zzo38> The opponent's creature is unaffected if it is protected or if opponent pays {2}. I thought maybe some other keyword abilities other than protection could also be counted to determine whether or not it could block it, perhaps also flying, reach, and shadow.
17:55:43 <b_jonas> huh? which creature of the opponent is tapped and detained? I don't understand this
17:56:26 <zzo38> The one you are trying to disable. It must be a creature controlled by the defending player (which is always an opponent, although if some variant permits a defending player other than an opponent, you can disable their creatures too)
18:01:08 <b_jonas> and I think I already said that reprinting Snow-Covered Plains is amazing
18:13:04 <zzo38> I am not so sure what the cost to defend against disable should be defined as (or if it should be a parameter), and if other keyword abilities should also be checked, and if so which ones (I think perhaps protection, flying, reach, and shadow; at least protection, I think)
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18:22:35 <b_jonas> Ephemerate => instead of these fancy variants with flashback or rebound, can we just get a Cloudshift with hybrid {U/W} mana cost? It wouldn't be overpowered, but would be fun.
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18:44:41 <zzo38> Why did the cursor blinking stop in all windows for a few seconds? Other than that it worked; only the cursor blinking stopped. But now the cursor blinking works again.
18:50:17 <zzo38> (The clock also continued to count the seconds even while the cursor blinking was stopped.)
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18:52:24 <b_jonas> https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/170/llanowar-tribe => now this one is cool
18:53:07 <b_jonas> I'm not saying it obsoletes Joraga Treespeaker or Elvish Archdruid, but it goes to that slot
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19:04:05 <b_jonas> Putrid Goblin => oh nice, another good small black creature from the set
19:11:33 <b_jonas> hmm, a modified Humble, this will be nice
19:11:42 <b_jonas> https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/23/reprobation I mean
19:21:38 <b_jonas> https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/181/springbloom-druid => this one is nice too, it might work in my elf deck
19:30:54 <b_jonas> https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/235/universal-automaton => oh wow, that's even better! a changeling artifact
19:31:19 <b_jonas> also has a relevant name for #esoteric
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19:53:47 <b_jonas> and yes, the Spore Frog reprint is good too
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21:07:15 <zzo38> Maybe a card could be like: Ziveruskex {?} Legendary Creature - ? (1/3) ;; Flying ;; Disable ;; Banding ;; Partner with Strixan ;; {1U}, {T}: Scry 2. I haven't put the mana cost and subtype(s), and some other details may be altered too. I wanted to try to do so that the color identity of Ziveruskex and Strixan together include all five colors.
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21:09:31 <zzo38> And then maybe: Strixan {?} Legendary Creature - ? (2/3) ;; Flying ;; Disable ;; Flanking ;; Partner with Ziveruskex and then I don't know?
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21:10:05 <b_jonas> what? the reminder text for those three abilities on Ziv would be like three cards long
21:10:15 <b_jonas> and isn't he a Homunculus for the creature type?
21:11:11 <zzo38> Homunculus? I don't think so? But, I like to omit reminder text anyways
21:12:50 <b_jonas> birdfolk and catfolk are creature typed bird and cat in M:tG, but treefolk aren't typed forest
21:13:02 <zzo38> Squid folk I don't think so either, not for Ziv
21:13:03 <b_jonas> rhinofolk are typed rhino too I think
21:13:15 <zzo38> Also, "Forest" is a subtype for lands, not for creatures
21:13:22 <b_jonas> yeah, that's why they aren't
21:13:33 <b_jonas> for creatures you have Treefolk and Dryad
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21:19:01 <b_jonas> and then there's the Rat Ninja
21:19:47 <lambdabot> ais523 said 6d 6h 22m 9s ago: counterexamples to the Goldbach conjecture aren't prime anyway (although they can't end in 3, so the example was dubious in another way)
21:23:35 <zzo38> Yes, there is Rat Ninja, and I don't know what other ninjas (I once invented a Wall Ninja card, but of course that is not official)
21:25:30 <zzo38> (For the cards I just wrote, the closest I can think seems to be Bird, although it seem a strange kind of birds even for Magic: the Gathering cards. Of course, it isn't official cards anyways, so maybe it is not matter. New subtypes can also be invented if needed, but maybe it isn't needed.)
21:26:51 <zzo38> (And I don't know if there should be two subtypes; some cards have two. Some even have more than two, but that would be excessive I think.)
21:37:12 <b_jonas> why would they be strange kinds of birds?
21:37:31 <b_jonas> kand yes, they could have two subtypes, eg. Bird Wizard
21:39:07 <zzo38> Ziveruskex and Strixan have feathers and wings and sharp beak, but also five eyes, antennas, scales, etc
21:39:31 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: Wasn't that the joke? I'm very confusil. <-- i agreel
21:40:13 <shachaf> oerjan: Maybe the joke's on me for having expectations.
21:44:51 <b_jonas> zzo38: that might still make them count as a Bird, as opposed to some more odd creature type. or if they're of a species of which there exist more in the setting, then it's possible that the species would get its own creature type.
21:45:05 <b_jonas> they're not Specters, right?
21:45:40 <zzo38> That is correct. Perhaps Bird is best.
21:47:40 <zzo38> Ziveruskex is a mathematician and scholar, but Strixan is fighting with a whip and a crossbow. (Still, Ziv knows a few magics, but not so much as real wizards do)
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21:55:59 <b_jonas> hmm. maybe Wizard or Artificer or Advisor or something in the first case, and Warrior or Archer in the second, unless Rogue or Soldier or Scout or something matches them
21:57:50 <b_jonas> they're not Barbarian either I think
21:59:46 <zzo38> I don't know why they don't have a Scholar subtype, it seem to me maybe even some existing cards should have had, maybe.
22:00:44 * oerjan resolves to skip the rest of the logs other than his pings
22:00:45 <b_jonas> it's a game where you recruit creatures fighting for you. scholars don't directly show off, except as people who direct the experiments to create the simic mutant creatures and such, in which case your creature is the simic mutant
22:02:43 <b_jonas> the few scholars that appear are Wizards and Artificers
22:10:04 <b_jonas> look at me, I can turn invisible
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22:57:15 <zzo38> Recruit creatures fighting for you is not the only part of the game, though; it is much more than just that.
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23:34:17 <Gazatron> looking for help getting started with Unreadable
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23:37:25 <zzo38> I suppose I will use Bird Wizard and Bird Archer, perhaps
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01:14:37 <esowiki> [[Mouse]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63226&oldid=63182 * Salpynx * (+315) more details, and simple examples
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02:05:20 <esowiki> [[Adar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63227&oldid=63225 * A * (+186) /* Examples */
02:05:51 <esowiki> [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63228&oldid=63227 * A * (-4) /* Stabilizers*/ Bad English
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02:13:13 <esowiki> [[Adar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63229&oldid=63228 * A * (+86) /* Truth-machine */
02:15:25 <esowiki> [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63230&oldid=63229 * A * (+1) /* Truth-machine */
02:16:16 <esowiki> [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63231&oldid=63230 * A * (+73) /* Truth-machine */
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02:17:48 <esowiki> [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63232&oldid=63231 * A * (+102) /* Oscillators */
02:18:41 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63233&oldid=63224 * A * (+146) /* Turing completeness proof waiting to be verified */
02:19:27 <esowiki> [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63234&oldid=63232 * A * (+4) /* Stabilizers */ Bad style
02:20:06 <esowiki> [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63235&oldid=63234 * A * (+4) /* Stabilizers */
02:21:15 <esowiki> [[Adar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63236&oldid=63235 * A * (+101) /* Oscillators */
02:35:34 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63237&oldid=63233 * A * (+144) /* Automatic incrementing */
02:40:17 <esowiki> [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63238&oldid=63236 * A * (+230) /* Interpreter */
02:41:03 <esowiki> [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63239&oldid=63238 * A * (-14) /* Interpreter */
02:41:40 <esowiki> [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63240&oldid=63239 * A * (+4) /* Interpreter */ elegance
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02:58:38 <esowiki> [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63241&oldid=63240 * A * (+415) /* Interpreter */
02:58:58 <esowiki> [[Adar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63242&oldid=63241 * A * (+19) /* Interpreter */
03:02:33 <esowiki> [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63243&oldid=63242 * A * (+119) /* Interpreter */
03:10:09 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63244&oldid=63237 * A * (+290) /* Turing completeness proof waiting to be verified */
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04:42:24 <esowiki> [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63245&oldid=63243 * A * (+158) /* Stabilizers */
04:46:06 <esowiki> [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63246&oldid=63245 * A * (+374) /* Oscillators */
04:50:04 <esowiki> [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63247&oldid=63246 * A * (+17) /* Oscillators */
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04:54:29 <esowiki> [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63248&oldid=63247 * A * (+63) /* Oscillators */
04:55:50 <esowiki> [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63249&oldid=63248 * A * (+97) /* Oscillators */
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07:49:39 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63250&oldid=63244 * TuxCrafting * (+836)
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09:54:23 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63251&oldid=63250 * A * (+402) /* Computational class */
09:54:45 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63252&oldid=63251 * A * (+31) /* Computational class */
09:56:13 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63253&oldid=63252 * A * (+67) /* Computational class */
10:00:44 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63254&oldid=63253 * A * (+210) /* Computational class */
10:05:02 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63255&oldid=63254 * A * (+173) /* JPDEC + INC is computationally equivalent to JZDEC */
10:05:18 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63256&oldid=63255 * A * (-145) /* The rest of the compilation */
10:05:34 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63257&oldid=63256 * A * (-5) /* JPDEC + INC is computationally equivalent to a modified JZDEC(which in turn is equivalent to the actual JZDEC) */
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15:26:56 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Zwedgy * New user account
15:33:12 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63258&oldid=63085 * Zwedgy * (+185) /* Introductions */
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18:13:12 <esowiki> [[Apsw]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=63259 * TuxCrafting * (+6316) Created page with "Apsw (/ps/) is a reversible esoteric programming language created by [[User:TuxCrafting]] based on swapping bits, where the number of set bits in the memory is finit..."
18:14:51 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63260&oldid=63189 * TuxCrafting * (+11)
18:15:36 <esowiki> [[User:TuxCrafting]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63261&oldid=63190 * TuxCrafting * (+11)
18:17:16 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63262&oldid=63260 * TuxCrafting * (+0) fix alphabetic ordering: oops, should've previewed
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20:21:36 <int-e> shachaf: https://twitter.com/hashcat/status/923584012278489094 is apparently something you can get on AWS for about $25/h... so $500k (give or take) should be enough for an MD5 collision ;-)
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20:57:57 <shachaf> int-e: Hmm, that's almost two years ago.
20:59:30 <int-e> But I don't expect it to be all that much cheaper now :)
21:00:05 <shachaf> Well, I'll contribute up to $5.
21:00:36 <int-e> Oh yeah... let's do a kickstarter... not.
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21:01:40 <shachaf> obviously the right answer is to do a blockchain thing
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21:08:47 <arseniiv> int-e: oh is it that thing you were doing a couple of days ago? (I was scarce on that topic, and then I was in a place without any interwebs so I had no chance to figure out what was all that stuff about MD5)
21:08:58 <arseniiv> ideally I should read the logs, I know :D
21:10:16 <int-e> arseniiv: yeah but at this point it's really more of a joke
21:10:22 <b_jonas> arseniiv: it was about that Typeable thing in Haskell,
21:11:10 <b_jonas> which if I understand correctly, is something that lets you augment existential values with a runtime repr of their type, and cast them back to the plain type if the representation matches,
21:11:26 <int-e> arseniiv: I mean, there's no way I'll actually do that by sheer brute force, even though it is clearly feasible.
21:11:27 <b_jonas> but for some reason it works by storing the MD5 of constructor names as part of the representation,
21:11:43 <int-e> arseniiv: And it should be an order of magnitude cheaper than the AWS price tag, too.
21:11:53 <int-e> But that's still expensive :)
21:12:01 <b_jonas> so shachaf concluded that if he could find two haskell identifiers whose MD5 of the utf-32be encoding matched, then he could break the type system
21:12:19 <b_jonas> at least this is my understanding, I don't really know all about the Haskell part
21:12:22 <int-e> ... nice attribution.
21:12:38 <b_jonas> and he did a proof of concept attack with part of the MD5 matching
21:13:01 <b_jonas> I mean, int-e did this new attack
21:13:15 <b_jonas> and I don't really understand what involvement shachaf has in it, besides the original bug ticket
21:13:17 <arseniiv> int-e: don’t worry, I’ll overcompensate and attribute all that to you in my memory
21:13:40 <HackEso> Addition, subtraction and multiplication have a certain ring to them.
21:13:51 <HackEso> There are two kinds of fields. Those where you can divide (except by zero), and those where you can conquer.
21:15:25 <arseniiv> I feel there’s not enough geological data in wisdom
21:15:33 <b_jonas> and his proof of concept attack at https://esolangs.org/logs/2019-06-04.html#lRh is missing 16 bits of strength
21:15:52 <b_jonas> so he needs (1<<16) times as much computation time to force a real attack, but it can be parallelized pretty well
21:16:28 <int-e> (and perhaps a factor of 4 because I got lucky)
21:16:48 <b_jonas> arseniiv: it's not a loop, it's a _cycle_. the ring cycle, they call it.
21:16:55 <b_jonas> which I think is a tautology.
21:17:09 <b_jonas> rings are supposed to be cycle-shaped by default
21:17:33 <int-e> You could just re-cycle the 'loop' wisdom entry.
21:17:37 <arseniiv> b_jonas: I mean, that thing with division but not necessarily associativity or something
21:17:52 <b_jonas> int-e: you got lucky by one bit and have to pay back one bit of luck in the full attack as a balance?
21:19:26 <int-e> b_jonas: I only computed about 9.17e13 hashes and 2^48 = 2.8e14.
21:20:29 <b_jonas> so more like a factor of 9 then
21:21:09 <int-e> Why did you square that?
21:21:29 <b_jonas> int-e: you used up your luck. you have to pay that back. you can't always be lucky, it evens out in the end.
21:21:41 <b_jonas> if you used log(3) nats of luck, you have to pay back log(3) nats
21:22:03 <arseniiv> . o O (extremely-bad-and-ungrammatical pun time: when you change your telephone number, it change-rings <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Change_ringing>)
21:22:30 <int-e> > 1 - exp (-1/3^2/2)
21:22:37 <b_jonas> you'll even it out by unblemished sacrifices instead?
21:22:40 <int-e> > logBase 2 (1 - exp (-1/3^2/2))
21:23:10 <int-e> b_jonas: it would be closer to 4.2 bits, though that's not really my objection ;-)
21:23:50 <int-e> b_jonas: I believe in the memory-less nature of luck.
21:25:20 <b_jonas> so you don't even do libations?
21:25:50 <b_jonas> libations. non-animal sacrifices, when you spill some of your drink or grains as a sacrifice for the gods.
21:25:59 <int-e> I shower in the morning, does that count?
21:26:27 <b_jonas> it may, but something tastier than water, such as honey and milk, may be better
21:26:48 <int-e> Eww, I wouldn't want to clean that up...
21:26:59 <arseniiv> obviously one can’t analyze luck with statistics, as it prover there are none (hm I don’t believe this, though. Of course it has some results about lucky, “biased” as they call them, coins)
21:27:03 <HackEso> b_jonas egy nagyon titokzatos személy. Hollétéről egyelőre nem ismertek.
21:27:06 <b_jonas> get a dedicated home altar so you don't have to clear it up
21:28:16 <int-e> `learn-append b_jonas//He is often too busy with appeasing the M:tG gods to make any sense.
21:28:16 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: learn-append: not found
21:28:22 <b_jonas> ``` for w in path trace track trail; do \? $w; done
21:28:25 <HackEso> path? ¯\(°_o)/¯ \ trace? ¯\(°_o)/¯ \ track? ¯\(°_o)/¯ \ trail? ¯\(°_o)/¯
21:28:26 <int-e> `learn_append b_jonas//He is often too busy with appeasing the M:tG gods to make any sense.
21:28:27 <HackEso> Can't open wisdom/b_jonas//he: Not a directory. \ /hackenv/bin/learn_append: line 5: wisdom/b_jonas//he: Not a directory \ Learned 'b_jonas//he': cat: wisdom/b_jonas//he: Not a directory
21:28:45 <int-e> how do things work...
21:29:31 <b_jonas> yeah that entry about me is old, might need some refreshment
21:30:21 <b_jonas> not specifically what you're trying, but some refreshment
21:30:27 <int-e> `le/rn_append b_jonas//He is often too busy with appeasing the M:tG gods to make any sense.
21:30:28 <arseniiv> b_jonas: is it useful to use G. Translate on it, or it would spew out something incorrect?
21:30:29 <HackEso> Learned 'b_jonas': b_jonas egy nagyon titokzatos személy. Hollétéről egyelőre nem ismertek. He is often too busy with appeasing the M:tG gods to make any sense.
21:31:58 <shachaf> int-e: Hmm? I think I did conclude that.
21:32:02 <arseniiv> “b_jonas is a very mysterious person. They are not known about their whereabouts yet”: hm, seems legit
21:32:08 <HackEso> wob_jonas is b_jonas in disguise, so that he can do magic tricks.
21:32:21 <shachaf> I'm sure I'm not the only one, though.
21:32:29 <HackEso> int-e är inte svensk. Hen kommer att spränga solen. Hen står för sig själv. Hen gillar inte färger, men han gillar dissonans. Er hat ein Hipster-Spiel gekauft.
21:33:15 <int-e> shachaf: Yeah it is rather obvious.
21:33:15 <arseniiv> “int-e is not Swedish. They will blow up the sun. They stand for themselves. They don't like colors, but he likes dissonance. He chewed a Hipster game.”: and still legit
21:33:43 <int-e> arseniiv: chewed?! nice... but nope.
21:33:48 <arseniiv> though that part about the sun is scary enough to reconsider correctness of that translation
21:34:19 <arseniiv> I think some games are chewable, why not
21:34:29 <arseniiv> that part should definitely be true
21:35:06 <arseniiv> I will better not g. translate other things
21:35:13 <HackEso> Your omnidryad saddle principal ideal golfing toe-obsessed "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty eldrazi grinch is a punctual expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. His arkup-nemesis is mediawiki's default diff. He twice punned without noticing it.
21:35:27 <int-e> arseniiv: There was context. I embarrassed myself on IRC and then wanted to destroy the logs... I stopped at the solar system because anything beyond that would be a little bit too extreme.
21:38:12 <arseniiv> yeah I too seem to remember there was something like more usual “arch-nemesis”
21:38:35 <int-e> arseniiv: that wisdom entry is highly volatile
21:39:58 <int-e> arseniiv: there's a difference between "gekaut" (chewed) and "gekauft" (bought).
21:41:53 <arseniiv> int-e: ah, this definitely makes more sense :) though only other candidate I had in mind was something like “made” or “contributed to”
21:42:57 <int-e> arseniiv: tbf I wouldn't be surprised if the wisdom entry will end up being changed to "gekaut". :P
21:43:59 <arseniiv> if it would, it wouldn’t be me as I fear to meddle with alchemy
21:45:17 <int-e> arseniiv: are you sure you wanted to write that given the context?
21:45:44 <int-e> `learn arseniiv is a blank slate who is afraid of alchemy, especially the kind involving chalk.
21:45:47 <HackEso> Learned 'arseniiv': arseniiv is a blank slate who is afraid of alchemy, especially the kind involving chalk.
21:46:14 <arseniiv> ah it parsed more positively than I thought
21:46:47 <int-e> sorry, my grammar is about as convoluted as my thoughts.
21:47:02 <arseniiv> this is much better than I was afraid it meant, like to be a blank slate is something dangerous to one’s health
21:47:20 <int-e> no, but it's an invitation for other people to write on
21:47:45 <int-e> (that's also funny to parse)
21:49:15 <arseniiv> also about the chalk part, how did you know that?
21:49:32 <arseniiv> I hoped it will forever be in the closed
21:50:57 <int-e> arseniiv: I'm not sure whether you're kidding. Chalk is used to write on slates.
21:52:10 <int-e> arseniiv: The "fun to parse" referred to the idea of writing on an invitation.
21:52:18 <arseniiv> also now I wonder, is there a phrase which means something blank to the naked eye but which also seems read-only
21:53:01 <arseniiv> <int-e> I'm not sure whether you're kidding. => partially :D
21:54:16 <arseniiv> hm yeah this is not a tablet, apparently
21:54:52 <arseniiv> there it should mean a tablet, I think
21:55:44 <arseniiv> wow, it even means more “cleared” than “empty”
21:56:15 <arseniiv> now I would be more careful in self-descriptions
21:56:26 <int-e> oh it's for the wax tablets
21:56:38 <int-e> (the clay ones are hard (literally!) to clear)
21:57:13 <int-e> But I don't know what material the romans used to back the wax.
21:58:39 <int-e> Ah there's a photograph of a wooden one.
21:59:20 <int-e> And a page... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wax_tablet
21:59:28 <arseniiv> int-e: yeah, makes sense. I was expecting clay before I knew just yet it means “erased”
21:59:56 <arseniiv> also it makes a lot of sense retrospectively about those being wax tablets and not clay ones
22:00:27 <b_jonas> so now I have a mixed language wisdom entry, just like int-e and shachaf?
22:00:29 <arseniiv> indeed I don’t remember reading Romans write on clay tablets in education or such
22:00:42 <int-e> learn, forget, repeat
22:00:45 <b_jonas> "<int-e> no, but it's an invitation for other people to write on" => there's a quote where I say something like that
22:01:28 <int-e> b_jonas: apparently you now have a mixed language wisdom entry
22:01:41 <b_jonas> "<int-e> Chalk is used to write on slates." => is it really? don't you write to slate with a stylus that makes marks by just denting its own material, as opposed to a chalk that adds material?
22:02:04 <HackEso> 32) <ehird> `translatefromto hu en Hogy hogy hogy ami kemeny <HackEgo> How hard is that \ 1170) <shachaf> pippi långstrump's name is translated as "gilgi" or "bilbi" usually <ion> Does she have a ring of power?
22:02:08 <b_jonas> that's a clay tablet, I see
22:02:21 <HackEso> 32) <ehird> `translatefromto hu en Hogy hogy hogy ami kemeny <HackEgo> How hard is that \ 1170) <shachaf> pippi långstrump's name is translated as "gilgi" or "bilbi" usually <ion> Does she have a ring of power?
22:02:22 <b_jonas> I don't know how that stuff worked back then
22:02:27 <HackEso> 32) <ehird> `translatefromto hu en Hogy hogy hogy ami kemeny <HackEgo> How hard is that \ 1170) <shachaf> pippi långstrump's name is translated as "gilgi" or "bilbi" usually <ion> Does she have a ring of power?
22:02:45 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slate_(writing)
22:03:31 <HackEso> Queen Shachaf of the Dawn sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends. He hates bell peppers with a passion. He doesn't know when to stop asking questions. We don't like this.
22:04:03 <int-e> (it helps to know that it derives from slate, the rock.)
22:04:20 <HackEso> 1273) <b_jonas> boily: sorry for the boring wisdom entries I added. I mostly did it hoping that someone will stumble on them and replace them with something better.
22:04:31 <b_jonas> arseniiv: ^ that's the one
22:05:29 <arseniiv> I wouldn’t find it ever, then, and it’s good I’m insufficiently stubborn
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22:06:54 <b_jonas> arseniiv: nah, there aren't that many quotes of me
22:07:02 <b_jonas> so you would find it by reading through all of them
22:07:33 <int-e> `` grep -c b_jonas quotes
22:08:55 <arseniiv> BTW does someone use KVIrc here? I’d like to make a script for it to log off when the OS goes into hibernation and to log on when it wakes up, as long ago I had written some nice logoff messages and they aren’t posted, instead I always leave with a ping timeout and it should be boring
22:09:38 <b_jonas> arseniiv: blame the irc servers. always blame the irc servers.
22:09:48 <b_jonas> arseniiv: nah, I don't say many wise things
22:09:59 <HackEso> 1051) <elliott> you know, when people talk about emacs being an OS I doubt what they had in mind was that it needed a package manager
22:10:03 <zzo38> I don't know if anyone use KVIrc here; I use a IRC program that I wrote by myself
22:11:38 <lambdabot> KOAK 092153Z 29012KT 10SM FEW100 BKN180 BKN250 32/06 A2998 RMK AO2 SLP151 T03220056
22:11:59 <int-e> a bit warm, isn't it?
22:12:04 <lambdabot> LOWI 092150Z AUTO 05012KT 020V110 9999 //////CB FEW050 BKN140 18/14 Q1020
22:12:24 <arseniiv> so then it’s unavoidable, I would need to dive in that scripting language alone, in low visibility and heavy precipitatio
22:12:32 <int-e> (It rained here, that helped. But it wasn't all that hot to begin with.)
22:13:06 <int-e> shachaf: at least it's dry :-/
22:14:17 <int-e> pfft: https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/file/tip/le/rm
22:14:48 <b_jonas> what are all those consecutive slashes?
22:15:27 <arseniiv> the first one and maybe there wouldn’t be any over all the summer
22:15:56 <b_jonas> my hon. and learned friend fungot, what does "//////CB" mean?
22:15:56 <fungot> b_jonas: female beauty. of these two great men had prevailed, i will add, with dismay, death may not retain its fnord and stupefaction.
22:16:27 <int-e> 12.20.1 A report from a fully automated AWS that does not include information from sensors for visibility, weather or cloud will report ////, // or ////// respectively in lieu of these parameters.
22:17:55 <int-e> (I wonder if that is correct. Anyway, it is a fully automatic report, and the airport is closed at night.)
22:18:15 <int-e> (So some missing data, whichever it is, is not dramatic)
22:19:00 <b_jonas> either that, or it's a mnemonic for heavy downpour with the rain blowing towards the left side of the line
22:21:13 <int-e> rain: // || \\ hail: :: snow: ** fog: ==
22:21:52 <b_jonas> as for languages, while I was on my vacation in the Netherlands some weeks ago, I had to read some labels in dutch, and I must say, given that I don't understand either of them, dutch language sounds somewhat similar to norwegian
22:22:10 <int-e> We will revolutionize avian meteorology...
22:22:42 <b_jonas> the big difference is that the dots over the vowels work differently in the two
22:27:07 <zzo38> What was also my guess, that it indicates data that is not available.
22:34:16 <arseniiv> okay I’ll timeout in a while now, bye and thanks!
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01:13:17 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63263&oldid=63262 * JonoCode9374 * (+17) /* C */ Added curlyfrick
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01:36:19 <esowiki> [[Adar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63264&oldid=63249 * Salpynx * (-368) /* Oscillators */ clear oscillator construction
01:37:58 <esowiki> [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63265&oldid=63264 * Salpynx * (-7) /* Stabilizers */ consistent terminology: "registers"
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02:09:50 <esowiki> [[Adar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63266&oldid=63265 * Salpynx * (-15) /* Stabilizers */ move section
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02:25:46 <esowiki> [[Adar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63267&oldid=63266 * Salpynx * (+261) /* Truth-machine */ alt version that does not trigger after first 0 is output
02:28:33 <esowiki> [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63268&oldid=63267 * Salpynx * (-21) /* Infinite loop */ duplicated below
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03:07:15 <kmc> . o O ( another one?? )
03:07:28 <kmc> hello / welcome / congrats(?)
03:08:02 * kmc offers hugs
03:28:41 <lizzie_swett[m]> b_jonas: I've decided to try going by Elizabeth for a little while. See how it suits me.
03:29:26 <lizzie_swett[m]> kmc: Just a nick change, really. But I never turn down a hug. :D
03:31:57 <kmc> hi, Elizabeth :)
03:32:07 <kmc> what pronouns do you use?
03:33:22 <zzo38> Or, do you prefer to do without pronouns?
03:34:34 <kmc> that is fine too, although linguistically awkward
03:34:36 <lizzie_swett[m]> Eh, I dunno. She/her is fine, he/him is fine. Anything is fine, I guess. :D
03:35:02 <kmc> well, good luck with your experiment
03:35:08 <kmc> I hope that it is informative
03:35:26 <lizzie_swett[m]> I'm not going to make you guys say stuff like "Liz is looking at Lizzelf." :D
03:35:36 <shachaf> informative experiments are tg
03:36:10 * kmc is happy to chat about such things 1:1, by the way
03:40:17 <zzo38> I also thought a programming language can have, each source file you will compile will produce not only the object file but also a auxiliary file (which may be empty). Before linking, all auxiliary files will be combined to make an additional object file to be linked with them (unless all of the auxiliary files are empty).
03:42:19 <kmc> zzo38: what purpose does it serve?
03:43:53 <zzo38> kmc: One example is if you have a sorted list of functions taken from various modules and may have some other data associated with it (e.g. sort by module name), then you can initialize it at compile time into a constant array, rather than having to program it in manually or initialize it at run time.
03:44:36 <zzo38> (There are other uses too, but that is one example.)
03:45:05 <kmc> people use special linker sections for that
03:49:19 <zzo38> Let's try to make up some more Magic: the Gathering card, too. Or even, a game variant, or new keyword abilities or keyword actions, or a puzzle, etc. Or maybe, everything together.
04:11:44 <kmc> bonghits [instant]: tap 2 green mana, target creature becomes stoned
04:51:16 <zzo38> What does it do if it is stoned?
04:53:06 <shachaf> If I put my whole program in one translation unit, do I need a linker?
04:53:35 <shachaf> i believe this is the hip thing to do
04:54:48 <zzo38> For many programs it will work, but sometimes the program is large and it will be slow to put it all at once
04:57:55 <shachaf> Because you lose incremental compilation, or because the whole program won't fit in memory or something?
04:58:48 <zzo38> Because it has to recompile the entire program. If it is large then it might be slow.
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06:00:48 <zzo38> kmc: How do you use special linker sections for that?
06:22:37 <olsner> what a linker does (mostly) is collect all input sections with the same/similar names into one output section, so in the simple case if every file outputs a chunk of data in .foo the output .foo is the concatenation of all of them, and you can then iterate the .foo section at runtime
06:24:24 <olsner> this is how global initialization code is handled, if a translation unit has global constructors a function pointer is added to the .init_array section and libc calls all those functions before main
06:25:47 <zzo38> That works for some cases (although, how do you iterate the section at runtime?), but if you want to perform computations on the data before it is compiled (such as sorting it, or removing duplicates), then it doesn't do (unless you do it at runtime)
06:29:01 <olsner> duplicates can be handled the same as code for "inline" functions and templates, probably called commoning or weak/vague linkage depending on binary format
06:29:41 <olsner> if you use GNU ld you'd use a linker script to sort input sections by name
06:30:26 <olsner> to get iteration either have the linker script emit start/end symbols for you, or have a first/last object that just defines start/end symbols in the right section
06:33:56 <olsner> more general purpose computation is trickier, to make something really fancy maybe you could write an ld plugin
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10:36:59 <esowiki> [[Union]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=63269 * A * (+266) Created page with "[[Union]] is a unique concentrative language that is based on [[queue]]s, not [[stack]]s or [[deque]]s(which can simulate stacks). It is mainly influenced by the union find. [..."
10:43:25 <esowiki> [[Union]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63270&oldid=63269 * A * (+749) Wait, it will probably be a stub page...
10:45:33 <esowiki> [[Union]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63271&oldid=63270 * A * (+140) /* Commands (just like any other concentrative language) */
10:46:58 <esowiki> [[Union]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63272&oldid=63271 * A * (+142) /* Evaluate 1-(3/2) */
10:50:31 <esowiki> [[Union]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63273&oldid=63272 * A * (+137) /* Commands (just like any other concentrative language) */
10:51:05 <esowiki> [[Union]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63274&oldid=63273 * A * (+29) /* Commands (just like any other concentrative language) */
10:51:18 <esowiki> [[Union]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63275&oldid=63274 * A * (+52) /* Examples */
10:51:54 <esowiki> [[Apsw]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63276&oldid=63259 * A * (+10) /* Examples */ You forgot to add links
10:52:50 <esowiki> [[Union]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63277&oldid=63275 * A * (+140) /* Examples */
10:55:52 <esowiki> [[Union]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63278&oldid=63277 * A * (+101) /* Examples */
11:00:10 <esowiki> [[Union]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63279&oldid=63278 * A * (+375) /* Examples */
11:01:25 <esowiki> [[Union]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63280&oldid=63279 * A * (+100)
11:05:38 <esowiki> [[Union]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63281&oldid=63280 * A * (+251)
11:10:18 <esowiki> [[Union]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63282&oldid=63281 * A * (+13)
11:10:35 <esowiki> [[Union]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63283&oldid=63282 * A * (+2)
11:10:59 <esowiki> [[Union]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63284&oldid=63283 * A * (-2)
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12:24:58 <ais523_> I think you need a linking step even when you only have one source file
12:25:08 <ais523_> although it might be done inside the compiler
12:25:17 <ais523_> you still need, e.g., all the references to the same global variable to refer to the same memory location
12:25:52 <ais523_> a compiler typically won't pick a memory location for global variables at all, that's the linker's job (also partially the runtime's job nowadays with ASLR, but the linker will still normally choose the relative locations of the global variables in memory)
12:31:22 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63285&oldid=63257 * Ais523 non-admin * (+813) /* Computational class */ finite-state machine
12:41:09 <HackEso> 24) <ais523> after all, what are DVD players for? \ 69) <ais523> so a.b.c.d.e.f.g.h.i.j.k.com might be self-relative, but a.b.c.d.e.f.g.h.i.j.k.l.com always means a.b.c.d.e.f.g.h.i.j.k.l.com.? \ 70) <ais523> let's put that in the HackEgo quotes files, just to completely mystify anyone who looks back along them in the future \ 77) <ais523> (still, whatever possessed anyone to invent the N-Gage?) \ 78) <ais523> theory: some amused deity is making the laws of
12:41:28 <HackEso> ls: cannot access 'bin/rand*': No such file or directory
12:41:34 <HackEso> bin/randbin \ bin/randomanonlog \ bin/random-card \ bin/randquote
12:41:40 <HackEso> 209) <zzo38> ais523: Maybe it is better, because I don't think the octopus will live very well in the tree. But the difference is that the Internet is lying and you cannot see such things; you could make modified picture, though, in order to lie more clearly, at least.
12:41:46 <HackEso> 427) <ais523> it actually worked, and faster than using Excel for rendering
12:41:50 <b_jonas> shachaf: Knuth says you don't need a linker then. I for one think you may still need a linker, because even if you put _most_ of your program in one translation unit, you still want to use vsdo. and yes, for incremental compilation too. and because the compiler only wants to know to emit one thing, and that one thing is .o files, so you link even a single .o to a .out.
12:41:56 <HackEso> 897) <ais523> oerjan: humans are very hard to anthropomorphise
12:42:04 <ais523_> b_jonas: VDSO requires linker support?
12:42:29 <ais523_> I thought it got dynamically linked into the executable by the kernel
12:42:48 <HackEso> 1297) <shachaf> ais523: Hmm, I think the wisdom database is like the quotes file, except it's for when people think they're being funny, rather than when other people think they're funny.
12:42:56 <HackEso> 927) <boily> ais523: I'm not sure my grasp of the English language is getting better by visiting this channel..
12:43:02 <HackEso> 69) <ais523> so a.b.c.d.e.f.g.h.i.j.k.com might be self-relative, but a.b.c.d.e.f.g.h.i.j.k.l.com always means a.b.c.d.e.f.g.h.i.j.k.l.com.?
12:43:11 <ais523_> OK, that's a duplicate, I'll stop now
12:43:57 <esowiki> [[Swapping turing machine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=63286 * TuxCrafting * (+4453) Created page with "A swapping Turing machine is a computational model similar to a standard Turing machine, except that instead of being able to mark new symbols on the tape, it is only able to..."
12:44:30 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * TuxCrafting * moved [[Swapping turing machine]] to [[Swapping Turing Machine]]: capitalization...
12:45:10 <b_jonas> ais523_: I don't know. how would symbols pointing to it get resolved?
12:45:34 <ais523_> IIRC they're normally dynamically linked to libc, the kernel just overrides that
12:45:52 <HackEso> 1290) <ais523> hmm, I just remembered that I was formally trained to tune harps
12:46:03 <ais523_> although, now I'm curious as to what happens if you have a function named, e.g., `gettimeofday` that has nothing to do with time
12:46:20 <b_jonas> ais523_: hmm. but that would still make it a linker in the kernel, wouldn't it?
12:46:22 <ais523_> does the vDSO try to override it anyway? or is there some check that you were using the libc version?
12:46:36 <ais523_> b_jonas: ld-linux.so is probably involved somehow
12:46:41 <ais523_> that's arguably a linker, just a runtime linker
12:47:12 <b_jonas> ais523_: the function in vdso is called __vdso_gettimeofday, not just gettimeofday
12:47:51 <b_jonas> well, it depends on the architecture, but it's never just gettimeofday
12:48:11 <esowiki> [[Adar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63289&oldid=63268 * TuxCrafting * (-117)
12:49:03 <esowiki> [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63290&oldid=63289 * TuxCrafting * (+1)
12:49:54 <ais523_> apparently on x86_64 it's available as both __vdso_gettimeofday and gettimeofday, but the latter name is deprecated
12:50:05 <ais523_> and presumably is set up to not be overridden by default
12:51:17 <b_jonas> I don't really know how all this ELF and linking thing works
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12:52:55 <esowiki> [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63291&oldid=63290 * A * (+158) /* Examples */ No oscillators went out of the formula.
12:53:10 <esowiki> [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63292&oldid=63291 * A * (+2) /* Stabilizers */
12:53:26 <esowiki> [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63293&oldid=63292 * A * (+1) /* Stabilizers */ Uh oh
12:55:26 <int-e> @google "linux elves"
12:55:28 <lambdabot> https://in.pinterest.com/pin/743868063429730113/
12:56:27 <int-e> well that was a surprisingly safe link
12:56:46 <b_jonas> I guess some of the tricks have to be there for binary compatibility, even after we got rid of the x86_32 arch and a.out
13:00:10 <int-e> . o O ( let me get back to solving the halting problem )
13:00:22 <esowiki> [[Swapping Turing Machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63294&oldid=63287 * TuxCrafting * (+446) explain minsky machine conversion
13:05:51 <esowiki> [[Apsw]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63295&oldid=63276 * A * (+164) Rubbish. (Throws an overripe tomato)
13:07:58 <esowiki> [[Apsw]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63296&oldid=63295 * A * (-164) /* Looping counter */
13:11:27 <esowiki> [[Swapping Turing Machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63297&oldid=63294 * TuxCrafting * (-2) the -> a
13:16:12 <b_jonas> I just realized that the IOCCC website says "close to June 2nd" without a year number
13:20:56 <esowiki> [[Swapping Turing Machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63298&oldid=63297 * A * (+89)
13:22:56 <int-e> Apparently it's only May 28th on the Julian Calendar.
13:23:25 <Taneb> Yeah but the Julian calendar hadn't invented August yet
13:23:29 <esowiki> [[Swapping Turing Machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63299&oldid=63298 * A * (+8) /* Register machine Swapping Turing machine conversion */ "else" does not contribute anything to the logic; improve the "register machine" description
13:23:48 <int-e> Good point. https://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/?country=23 is SOO wrong.
13:24:16 <int-e> (Then again they mangled all the month names anyway.)
13:24:22 <b_jonas> int-e: IOCCC is adamant that they're about C, not about other languages, and the C standard library only knows the Gregorian calendar, with timegm, gmtime, timelocal, localtime
13:24:39 <int-e> (And don't get me started on the idea that the year starts in January.)
13:25:03 <int-e> b_jonas: IOCCC is also all about abuse.
13:25:07 <b_jonas> int-e: the year starts at the start of September,
13:25:29 <int-e> Were you around for the eternal September?
13:26:19 <b_jonas> the idea that it starts at January only came about because calendars start at January, but that's simply because the government is so annoying that they don't always decide by the start of September which days will be holidays in the year, but they always decide a small margin before January, so the publishers can get calendars to the shops that way
13:26:30 <Taneb> Isn't the eternal september, by definition, ongoing?
13:26:51 <int-e> Right, I should ask about the start of it.
13:26:59 <int-e> (And tbh I have to look up the year.)
13:27:26 <b_jonas> int-e: no, I wasn't around
13:27:51 <esowiki> [[Swapping Turing Machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63300&oldid=63299 * A * (+393) /* Register machine Swapping Turing machine conversion */
13:28:06 <esowiki> [[Swapping Turing Machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63301&oldid=63300 * A * (-2) /* See also */
13:28:49 <int-e> (And I can't say I was around either... I believe I only got seriously on the Internet about 3 years later, and was introduced to Usenet around 1998?)
13:29:32 <b_jonas> I got on the internet seriously in 2003, although I started to use the internet a little around 1997
13:29:39 <int-e> I did experience the collecting-AOL-CDs hype though.
13:29:43 <esowiki> [[Swapping Turing Machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63302&oldid=63301 * A * (+76) /* Another very trivial conversion */
13:29:48 <b_jonas> we didn't have AOL-CDs here
13:29:49 <arseniiv> I think year is a misguided concept. In nature, things almost never change suddenly, nor do they have a constant value for a long time. We should use phases of the Earth wrt a some ideal point defined in a manner there is no consensus on
13:30:14 <int-e> arseniiv: do you celebrate or mourn your birthday or is it just like any other day?
13:30:49 <int-e> (you don't have to answer that)
13:30:50 <b_jonas> I celebrate the first moon landing on it
13:30:52 <arseniiv> I think I do both, though the first more and the second in a much lesser degree
13:31:06 <arseniiv> <int-e> (you don't have to answer that) > oh :D
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13:31:24 <int-e> arseniiv: I realized that it was kind of personal :)
13:32:03 <arseniiv> seriously, I am fine with years, but no one should know about it, tellurian phases should be a public API
13:32:30 <arseniiv> and they should be elements of some ideal sphere S^1
13:33:02 <arseniiv> no, moon phases are fine as they are too
13:33:23 <int-e> While I'm venturing into shachaf territory (asking questions without knowing when to stop), do you prefer solar or siderian days, and which planet is your favorite reference point for those?
13:33:56 <arseniiv> int-e: hm I don’t think I have thought about that matter
13:34:09 <lambdabot> I won't; I want to go get some cookies instead.
13:34:19 <lambdabot> why on earth would I slap b_jonas ?
13:34:31 <int-e> let me have that cookie back.
13:34:35 <b_jonas> heck, next you'll ask the hard question on whether, if we could go back to the 50s, we'd want to retroactively abolish DST or not
13:34:55 <arseniiv> arseniiv: whay do they? They are the integer multiple of hour, like the c of m/s, it’s pretty and nice
13:35:22 <b_jonas> my hon. and learned fungot, do you celebrate your birthday?
13:35:22 <fungot> b_jonas: that man who, upon this old mother soil, the anniversary of an experiment which was born of war with this same land so long ago. this fnord pitt, who bribed the directory to order the reviewers not to notice so formidable an attack on the reign of louis xiv. and during that of louis xv. fenelon's principles of good government.
13:35:43 <b_jonas> wow, that's out of the blue
13:35:44 <int-e> anniversary <-- right on topic
13:35:58 <int-e> did you know that when you shift your fingers and try to type <--, you get M00?
13:36:29 <esowiki> [[Talk:Swapping Turing Machine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=63303 * A * (+790) Huh?
13:37:08 <arseniiv> <int-e> let me have that cookie back. > someone should implement @botunsnack and make it throw an error when there’s nothing to un
13:38:31 <arseniiv> ah, I should be indeed very sloppy, I misread b_jonas said “siberian days”
13:38:45 <b_jonas> I did say siberian days, yes
13:39:20 <arseniiv> I mean, I misread that as “siderian”
13:39:28 <b_jonas> is "siderian" even a word?
13:40:10 <esowiki> [[Talk:Swapping Turing Machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63304&oldid=63303 * TuxCrafting * (+426)
13:41:44 <arseniiv> hm it’s a name of a geological period https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siderian
13:42:26 <lizzie_swett[m]> I think sidereal days are all right, but I prefer solar days.
13:45:13 <esowiki> [[Talk:Swapping Turing Machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63305&oldid=63304 * A * (+460) /* Not Turing-complete? */
13:46:15 <esowiki> [[Talk:Swapping Turing Machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63306&oldid=63305 * A * (+97) Add
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13:47:09 <arseniiv> BTW I can’t properly start watching a course on spinors and Clifford algebras. I had seen a couple of minutes from the start, heard that in my language <spinor> is accented unlike <vector> and <tensor> and maybe this is holding me back now?..
13:47:51 <arseniiv> I always thought that they were accented alike
13:49:00 <esowiki> [[Talk:Swapping Turing Machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63307&oldid=63306 * A * (+120)
13:50:48 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63308&oldid=63285 * A * (+95) /* Computational class */ Seems like a joke
13:51:23 <esowiki> [[Talk:Swapping Turing Machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63309&oldid=63307 * TuxCrafting * (+464)
13:51:32 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63310&oldid=63308 * A * (+115) /* Computational class */
13:57:30 <esowiki> [[Talk:Swapping Turing Machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63311&oldid=63309 * A * (+227)
13:59:38 <esowiki> [[Talk:Swapping Turing Machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63312&oldid=63311 * A * (+59)
14:01:07 <esowiki> [[Talk:Swapping Turing Machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63313&oldid=63312 * A * (+106)
14:01:43 <esowiki> [[Swapping Turing Machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63314&oldid=63302 * A * (-301) /* Another very trivial conversion */
14:02:17 <esowiki> [[Talk:Swapping Turing Machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63315&oldid=63313 * TuxCrafting * (+437) uhh
14:02:55 <esowiki> [[Swapping Turing Machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63316&oldid=63314 * TuxCrafting * (+25)
14:03:20 <esowiki> [[Talk:Swapping Turing Machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63317&oldid=63315 * A * (-644) /* Not Turing-complete? */ Break the thread
14:03:32 <esowiki> [[Swapping Turing Machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63318&oldid=63316 * TuxCrafting * (-167) no purpose for this section now
14:14:06 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63319&oldid=63310 * A * (+1) /* Computational class */ sp
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14:17:14 <esowiki> [[Talk:Swapping Turing Machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63320&oldid=63317 * A * (+7) Totally garbage; I should comment it out.
14:18:28 <esowiki> [[Swapping Turing Machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63321&oldid=63318 * Arseniiv * (+55) Minsky machine links
14:20:19 <esowiki> [[Swapping Turing Machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63322&oldid=63321 * TuxCrafting * (-43) register machine -> minsky machine everywhere too
14:21:07 <arseniiv> is it a polite thing to comment out other people’s comments in a conversation you initiated? A’s done that just now
14:23:37 <esowiki> [[Talk:Swapping Turing Machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63323&oldid=63320 * A * (+525) Add a subsection
14:26:56 <esowiki> [[Talk:Swapping Turing Machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63324&oldid=63323 * Arseniiv * (+334) /* Turing-completeness without swapping */ no
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14:28:07 <tuxcrafting> i guess it isn't exactly polite but fwiw that was due to a misunderstanding by A so it wasn't of great importance
14:28:59 <int-e> arseniiv: I'm ignoring A-related esowiki messages... and I'm quite a bit happier for it.
14:29:15 <arseniiv> tuxcrafting: I am concerned it was really an misunderstanding. A is somewhat of a trickster
14:30:03 <arseniiv> int-e: it’s a good strategy, yes
14:30:34 <tuxcrafting> arseniiv: don't attribute to malice what can be attributed to a misunderstanding. or something like that. although it's true that A has quite a bad track record
14:31:15 <int-e> (I mentioned that obscurely at https://esolangs.org/logs/2019-05.html#lAac ... not sure about IRC clients other than irssi)
14:31:38 <arseniiv> I was raised this same topic two times and it’s already too much but I just can’t lay still it seems :D
14:32:27 <int-e> In this case, A's not write.
14:32:41 <arseniiv> int-e: yeah personally I had parsed it as a command to hide these post for some client
14:33:38 <int-e> tuxcrafting: A doesn't have a good grip on what they do and do not know.
14:34:06 <int-e> (That's my opinion at least.)
14:34:23 <int-e> And they have a temper problem that doesn't help with communication at all.
14:36:42 <int-e> Anyway, it's fairly obvious that that swapping TM is almost, but not quite, a Minsky machine. (There's a complication that when counters "meet", and when there's more than one of a kind of symbol.)
14:37:25 <int-e> I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's closer to a Minsky machine in its capabilities than to a TM.
14:37:56 <tuxcrafting> it's impossible to directly convert a tm to a swapping tm but a minsky machine is pretty trivial
14:39:23 <arseniiv> int-e: also about sidereal days, I think I’m now sure. I’ll use M94! It has some ring to it
14:40:52 <arseniiv> also it’s one of the rare(?) Messier catalogue entities that don’t lists something unrelated to astronomy in google results
14:42:09 <arseniiv> “don’t lists”, bwah, sloppiness lasts long
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15:05:50 <b_jonas> ``` lists # arseniiv: well, "lists" is safer than "list"
15:05:51 <HackEso> bash: lists: command not found
15:06:04 <esowiki> [[Talk:Swapping Turing Machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63325&oldid=63324 * A * (+361)
15:08:14 <int-e> ... heh I haven't seen this before (ghc/Haskell: Pattern match checker exceeded (2000000) iterations)
15:09:33 <b_jonas> int-e: what language extensions have you (or the code you're compiling) enabled?
15:09:39 <int-e> (but I also have not generated 150 random patterns for a single function before)
15:09:49 <int-e> b_jonas: just DeriveFunctor.
15:11:01 <int-e> But that's really not the problem. :)
15:13:46 <b_jonas> int-e: I think the most I have is 16 patterns, in http://math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/Bin.hs , for multiple functions that take two arguments each of a type that has four constructors
15:18:36 <esowiki> [[Talk:Swapping Turing Machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63326&oldid=63325 * TuxCrafting * (+430) sigh
15:21:27 <tuxcrafting> "in the hypothetical case that the machine would be denied to swap values, it wouldn't be tc. therefore, the machine in its current state isn't tc."
15:27:42 <arseniiv> once I heard one person said that Minsky machines are inferior for didactic purposes to Turing machines, as they purportedly can work only with naturals and naturals aren’t the grail of computability to stick to them
15:28:42 <b_jonas> I think both minsky machines and turing machines and even multi-tape turing machines such for didactic purposes. we need proper pointer machines with cons.
15:28:46 <arseniiv> though this someone didn’t seem to criticise another common computability instrument, recursive functions, in such a way
15:29:19 <b_jonas> or we could use (0) as the model of computability. that was sort of its goal.
15:29:41 <b_jonas> some minor details like evaluation order have to be cleared up in its definition, but still
15:30:08 <arseniiv> though all three formalisms are perfectly suited to work with any inductive type, e. g. binary strings (as I have done in that eso YE<something>A)
15:31:53 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> we need proper pointer machines with cons. => maybe! But your topic is more genuine than the aforementioned nonsense
15:33:09 <b_jonas> I still don't understand how that computational model of recursive functions on natural works. is there a good readable description somewhere, such as on the wiki?
15:33:28 <arseniiv> I’m glad I only read what that person said, and not participated in a discussion (luckily, it was over at that time and I wasn’t signed up to that board, and still isn’t)
15:33:57 <arseniiv> b_jonas: what details concern you?
15:34:32 <arseniiv> I could write something right here if I’ll understand the question
15:36:00 <b_jonas> arseniiv: I think I understand the part about projection and composition: that's the same idea that Amicus and Backus's FP use
15:36:07 <b_jonas> but how do the loop builtins work?
15:36:45 <arseniiv> b_jonas: how are they interpreted, or how one can express loops with them?
15:36:49 <b_jonas> are they strange because it's modifying a definition that's trying to capture primitive recursion?
15:37:46 <b_jonas> one of the loop primitives is a counter loop, for primitive recursion, right?
15:37:51 <b_jonas> a general one that can pass any state
15:38:57 <b_jonas> and the other one, that tries to find a loop bound to break over primitive recursion?
15:40:40 <arseniiv> I couldn’t understand about general state… ah, or no, I did now
15:40:59 <b_jonas> general state as in you can propagate any number of local variables
15:41:00 <arseniiv> but the μ thingie directly corresponds to a while loop, yeah
15:41:33 <b_jonas> you can't break out early, so you need to work that around
15:41:41 <b_jonas> it's awkward in an esoteric way, but not really limiting
15:42:29 <b_jonas> but there's something that doesn't work here
15:43:11 <arseniiv> it ceases iterating when that test function returns 0
15:43:18 <b_jonas> it doesn't have general state
15:43:22 <b_jonas> it can only propagate one number
15:43:31 <b_jonas> we don't have cons and decons operators
15:44:07 <b_jonas> (but it is defined in such a way that it doesn't need them)
15:44:37 <arseniiv> wait, didn’t I use an enhanced μ μself in Y…A? I’ll look
15:45:51 <arseniiv> it is enhanced by some margin, but not in such a way
15:46:17 <b_jonas> no I'm still trying to understand the for loop, not the other loop
15:47:40 <arseniiv> (it allows to take a function f: m + 1 → n instead of f: m + 1 → 1, and n can be even 0 if it’s needed)
15:48:00 <arseniiv> I think it’s more easy in recursive formulation
15:48:37 <arseniiv> you can write the result as a specially-constrained recursive definition by cases
15:50:55 <arseniiv> you probably know it already but let’s write some haskellish thing anyway:
15:51:27 <b_jonas> but the definition should give primitive recursive functions if you remove the general loop builtin
15:55:15 <arseniiv> f (S n) = s n (f n) -- maybe s (f n), I forgot. This is what Y…A uses, and it’s nicer to have
15:55:15 <arseniiv> so you probably recognize our friends Church and Scott (in my definition both, in the standard one it’s Church IIRC)
15:55:30 <arseniiv> b_jonas: here, I was typing :D
15:55:40 <b_jonas> hmm, let me look up this Y...A.
15:56:02 <arseniiv> Y…A is more eso than is needed here, but https://esolangs.org/wiki/YEOOIIOOIOA
15:56:15 <arseniiv> and it’s for strings, not naturals
15:56:55 <arseniiv> so here are more constructors, more recursion cases and more unneeded trouble in defining μ
15:57:25 <b_jonas> right, that makes it easier
15:57:46 <b_jonas> my problem here is that rec (as you defined above and as the traditional definition has) doesn't allow me to pass more than one variable to the next iteration of the loop,
15:58:14 <b_jonas> and since I don't have any way to make and unmake a tuple, I can't even pass multiple variables in a tuple either
15:58:16 <arseniiv> also the semantic description there is not that neat as I’ve written just now, I hadn’t realized it could be simplified then
15:59:06 <arseniiv> b_jonas: you mean, no way to make/unmake tuples not using rec itself?
15:59:52 <b_jonas> arseniiv: I dunno, maybe there is some way to make/unmake tuples with rec, which would solve this problem
16:00:00 <b_jonas> but then I don't know how to do that
16:00:07 <arseniiv> in my case, well, you can return multiple results, I’ve seen to that :D
16:00:50 <b_jonas> Amicus solves this by not having a for loop or while loop, you have to make loops with a Y combinator, in which case passing multiple arguments is natural
16:00:57 <arseniiv> I think in standard texts (with naturals) they use Cantor pair encoding, implementing it on many pages step by step
16:01:29 <b_jonas> arseniiv: so you're saying you can somehow write 2-tuple encoding and decoding from this, despite that they're not builtins?
16:01:52 <arseniiv> oh why, even standard one has deconsing: projections
16:03:00 <arseniiv> hm I seem to be too far in the clouds maybe
16:03:25 <arseniiv> let’s state remaining problems in a more concrete terms
16:04:25 <arseniiv> (and I agree to discuss the standard case without function concats and many-valued rec, yeah)
16:04:53 <b_jonas> let me try. you know how when in an imperative language, you have a counter loop that closes over mutable variables, you can translate that to a pure function language (without mutable variables) by turning to loop to a recursion that passes the latest values of those variables to the next iteration as arguments, right?
16:05:06 <b_jonas> but this needs to pass the values of multiple variables to the next iteration
16:05:20 <b_jonas> rec doesn't let you do that, it only lets you pass one variable to the next iteration that can change
16:05:33 <b_jonas> it lets you pass any number of constants that don't change through the loop, but that's not enough
16:05:57 <arseniiv> so we are to implement consing and unconsing
16:06:01 <b_jonas> so my question is, how do you translate a Bloop for loop to that awkward old definition of primitive recursive?
16:06:59 <b_jonas> David explains that the cons and decons bultins in (0) are redundant, but that's because it already has mutable variables that persist through loops
16:07:50 <b_jonas> this is tuple cons and decons by the way
16:08:10 <b_jonas> but it's easy to get maybes too
16:09:33 <b_jonas> because the language is weakly typed, the tuple is of the same type as the numbers
16:09:45 <arseniiv> if consing and unconsing are all we need on this stage, then we implement them via Cantor, and that three functions we implement carefully without for :D I don’t remember what’s needed exactly, I’ll take a look
16:10:25 <b_jonas> this totally sounds like an esoteric language, so it would be nice to have a description on the wiki
16:11:18 <arseniiv> but as you can see, there are flavors to it
16:12:35 <arseniiv> what ones should one describe? Many of augmentations I used I took from a book by Manin (and I don’t know what part of them he thought them up himself)
16:13:02 <b_jonas> the variant with that stupid rec
16:13:30 <b_jonas> admittedly I didn't even try to describe why 1.1 is turing-complete or how to program it either
16:13:37 <arseniiv> that one Church—Scott addition can be probably attributed to one article of someone, which is concerned with representing inductive types in pure λ
16:13:50 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> the variant with that stupid rec > ah
16:14:03 <arseniiv> maybe if there aren’t any, I could address that
16:14:42 <arseniiv> about cantor things. I still haven’t found formulas, can’t remember what they are named
16:15:10 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> admittedly I didn't even try to describe why 1.1 is turing-complete or how to program it either => you mean, Amicus 1.1?
16:15:27 <arseniiv> (I don’t remember if it has revisions)
16:15:50 <b_jonas> the string replacement one
16:16:01 <arseniiv> ah, I haven’t heard about that one yet I think
16:17:37 <arseniiv> an interesting enhancement of bare Markov algorithms, I see
16:18:02 <b_jonas> wait, what are bare Markov algorithms?
16:18:28 <b_jonas> is that yet another model?
16:18:47 <b_jonas> I thought this was a Chomsky stuff, not a Markov stuff
16:18:53 <b_jonas> Chomsky class 3 languages or something
16:19:23 <arseniiv> (sorry, cont.) and I didn’t know he stated them in that enhanced way
16:20:05 <arseniiv> b_jonas: I called them bare now, this is a model where there are two kinds of replacements, one marked with → and one marked with →.
16:20:21 <b_jonas> I think the Chomsky class 3 is more like the bare Markov algorithms
16:20:24 <arseniiv> the latter one, if succeed, finish the computation
16:20:31 <b_jonas> 1.1 differs from them in that it has a finite control with an instruction pointer
16:20:39 <b_jonas> with each instruction doing a string search and replacement
16:20:43 <b_jonas> like sed with the s and t commands
16:21:32 <b_jonas> except, you know, without the capture features, so it's much more ugly to swap strings
16:21:51 <arseniiv> though, do Chomsky classes correspond to computational formalisms directly?
16:22:17 <arseniiv> I don’t know how to turn a grammar to a function :/
16:23:31 <b_jonas> Chomsky class 0 is regular expressions; class 1 general context-free langugaes is the weirdest and doesn't correspond to anything older; class 2 is a bit odd too, it's turing machines with storage bounded to a constant factor of input size; class 3 is just every recursive function
16:24:09 <b_jonas> is it every recursively enumerable language?
16:26:39 <arseniiv> b_jonas: inverting cantor looks painful: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pairing_function#Inverting_the_Cantor_pairing_function
16:27:06 <arseniiv> and a floor not directly after it
16:27:46 <arseniiv> so maybe someone needs to look up if it’s done in a simpler way (and still without μ)
16:27:52 <b_jonas> arseniiv: I was thinking maybe you can use rec to implement division and modulo, with two rec loops nested in the former case, and then implement any two-counter Minksy machine, but that sounds very painful, and is probably also historically impossible
16:30:27 <arseniiv> b_jonas: certaintly you can implement division and modulo, as constrained difference and ordering predicates are pretty simple to express. prec is a pain when rec is not Church-enabled
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16:31:17 <arseniiv> but not a big pain, and others are more or less nice afterwards
16:31:26 <b_jonas> arseniiv: you don't even need general division and modulo, just divison and modulo by a constant
16:31:46 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> and is probably also historically impossible => why?
16:31:47 <b_jonas> hmm, I should create an index page for Donald Knuth on the wiki, pointing to the languages he's created
16:32:11 <b_jonas> arseniiv: I don't think people knew that two-counter Minsky machines were tc back when that old primitive recursive definition was formulated
16:33:04 <arseniiv> we can implement that other one with one multiplicative counter
16:35:24 <arseniiv> hm also I did a time ago write something sketchy in notepad about translating recursive functions to Minsky machines, but it’s of course not that interesting in this regard. I even used extended ones and it translated quite nicely. Shame it does so one-way only
16:35:55 <arseniiv> it *still* translated quite nicely, I mean
16:36:54 <arseniiv> also the translation generalizes nicely to other inductive types, modulo the stuff about μ (lexicographic iteration seems not so simple to implement)
16:39:09 <arseniiv> also that generalization hints there should be an opcode CLR, as for types with several nullary constructors we need all of them explicit for a nicer look
16:41:41 <esowiki> [[Donald Knuth]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=63327 * B jonas * (+526) Created page with "'''Donald E. Knuth''' is a legend who is writing the bible ''The Art of Computer Programming''. Programming languages connected to him include: * He designed the MIX (Knut..."
16:41:50 <HackEso> 1318) <ais523> b_jonas: hmm, it's fairly surprising that you can make a coherent esolang whose primary feature is that it wasn't written by Donald Knuth
16:48:54 <int-e> I'm reminded of https://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/programs/tpk.i somehow
16:49:43 <int-e> Which I remember for this bit: "PLEASE NOTICE THAT VARIABLE NAMES AND SUBROUTINE NAMES USE THE 5-BIT TELEPRINTER CODE IN LETTER-SHIFT MODE, NAMELY / E @ A : S I U 1/4 D R J N F C K T Z L W H Y P Q O B G " M X V $"
16:53:18 <b_jonas> int-e: as for Knuth's stuff, I've been reading the sgb_flip random generator lately. it's quite simple, only uses shifts and additions and subtractions on 32-bit integers,
16:54:04 <b_jonas> yet somehow none of these collections of historical random generator functions seem to include it: it's not in GSL, in boost random, or in the C++ standard random functions
16:55:13 <b_jonas> I've been reading it because I wanted a reasonable random function to implement a program that needs randomness in an esoteric language, and since this one is by Knuth, it's reliable, and would also serve to test my arithmetic implementatino
16:57:56 <b_jonas> the implementation in a reasonable language that already has 32-bit arithmetic fits in an irc line
16:59:05 <b_jonas> well, provided it also has arrays
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18:38:14 <arseniiv> b_jonas: I’m writing a haskellish bare primitive recursive formalism definition and there is a certain dilemma in description:
18:38:14 <arseniiv> (i) z(ero) is a nullary function, and one can compose a function with an empty list of functions (f ∘ ()), which would turn a nullary f into arbitrary-ary function, but existence of those is quite a burden in formalization;
18:38:14 <arseniiv> (ii) there is z_0, z_1 etc. for any number of arguments, and one can’t make f ∘ (), and there’s no possibility of making an arbitrary-ary functions; alas, many z’s looks unnatural;
18:38:14 <arseniiv> (iii) z is nullary and f ∘ () is not allowed: one still can extend nullary functions to take more arguments by applying rec; I think it’s computationally unwanted;
18:39:04 <arseniiv> this would be a stable definition to use later anyplace
18:41:43 <arseniiv> <arseniiv> I think it’s computationally unwanted => if one to implement this formalism in their esolang to show it’s TC. Though unlikely, it’s possible that this road could be the easiest than T. or M. machines or waterfall model or such, and then this thing would be an unnecessary strain on implementation
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18:53:09 <b_jonas> arseniiv: I like functions with arbitrary fixed arities, like in Amicus or Backus's FP, but if you want to represent them in Haskell, that would complicate the definition
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19:02:55 <arseniiv> b_jonas: I meant functions which can be assigned several different types like N → N, N² → N, N³ → N… — f ∘ () makes such ones. We can, in principle, make ∘ depend on extraneous value fixing arity of the result, but I don’t like that. Though it’s a valid unlisted alternative which I will call (i+)
19:03:55 <arseniiv> as for Haskell, that description doesn’t need to be a valid code, I just like how it looks in haskellish formulation
19:07:04 <b_jonas> arseniiv: Amicus solves that by making any function also work as a function with a higher arity and just ignore the rest of the arguments
19:07:39 <b_jonas> they all take a list of arguments as input, but basically the only way you can access that list is through projection
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19:08:35 <b_jonas> or passing the list forward to another functino
19:08:53 <b_jonas> this isn't entirely true, but close enough
19:09:21 <arseniiv> b_jonas: should we make this to the old rusty recursive formalism, though?
19:09:48 <arseniiv> wouldn’t it complicate some proofs
19:09:51 <b_jonas> I don't know, I'm not trying to design a language here, just understand why that old definition works
19:10:00 <b_jonas> and that one doesn't work this way
19:11:08 <arseniiv> I’ll go with (iii) for a time. This choice is irrelevant for expressing plus or times or hopefully division
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19:33:34 <arseniiv> b_jonas: hm there’s a mistake in my definition of rec, I forgot to apply x1 … xn to z and s, they were meant to be preapplied and then it looks no simpler than the classic definition
19:34:33 <arseniiv> we could write “… where f … z′ … s′ …; z′ = z x1 … xn; s′ = s x1 … xn”
19:36:06 <arseniiv> hm, no, it’s still better as f is pre-applied
19:36:29 <arseniiv> they are nicer in big font sizes
19:40:36 <esowiki> [[(0)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63328&oldid=57597 * B jonas * (-38) rename refs to Amicus
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20:30:18 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63329&oldid=63319 * Ais523 * (+364) /* Computational class */ how PDAs and FSMs cross-compile
20:30:42 <b_jonas> `? superexponential growth
20:30:43 <HackEso> Superexponential growth? SUPEREXPONENTIAL GROWTH?! HOLY CRAP!!!
20:31:59 <HackEso> Superduperexponential growth is exponential growth on top of exponential growth.
20:32:20 <HackEso> Superduperinteressantesandersonnegelegenesdorfmitoderohnesahneistunsdabeiabsolutscheissegal is where mroman lives.
20:34:36 <HackEso> Supercalifragilisticexponential growth leaves Graham's number in the dust.
20:43:28 <b_jonas> How does Nintendo ensure that the different characters in a Super Smash Bros game are somewhat balanced? Do they nerf overpowered characters in patches, or do they just get it right the first time?
20:49:24 <HackEso> mroman is a leading artist in password security (SFW). He also likes black madness. He can design password hashes that are worse than the identity function. He invented the identity function. He's also an artist in unconventional warfare.
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20:50:53 <int-e> mm I hope he's fine
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21:19:13 <kmc> it's too fuckn hot today
21:26:37 <lambdabot> EGLL 102120Z AUTO 01007KT 340V050 4100 RA SCT009/// BKN014/// //////CB 11/11 Q1011 TEMPO BKN009
21:29:01 <b_jonas> ^ It's that temperature here, but that's late in the evening
21:29:06 <b_jonas> it was hotter during the day
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21:33:30 <fizzie> It's been about 11-13 °C the whole day, and raining.
21:33:57 <fizzie> There's also an amber warning in place.
21:33:58 <fizzie> "Flooding and transport disruption likely from heavy rain in southeast England during Monday afternoon and evening."
21:34:10 <b_jonas> we've had yellow warnings for like two weeks now
21:34:30 <b_jonas> let me check what the latest is
21:35:52 <fizzie> I usually check blitzortung.org for thunderstorms.
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21:36:38 <b_jonas> oh, now it's heat warnings
21:37:09 <b_jonas> yellow heat warnings for tomorrow and wednesday, orange for thursday
21:37:34 <b_jonas> orange means daily average likely over 27°C
21:38:08 <b_jonas> what bothers me more is that they predict over 20°C for every night, which means I'll have trouble sleeping well
21:39:11 <FireFly> we're having pretty nice days up here
21:39:40 <FireFly> https://www.smhi.se/vadret/vadret-i-sverige/ortsprognoser/q/Stockholm/2673730#tab=0,chart=1 I can't complain too much
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22:02:17 <kmc> @metar KSFO
22:02:17 <lambdabot> KSFO 102156Z VRB03KT 10SM BKN200 35/13 A2996 RMK AO2 SLP145 T03500128
22:22:58 <arseniiv_> against rule-gaming, this clause from ProofWiki ToS seems reasonable:
22:23:02 <arseniiv_> > > I agree to be bound by what may reasonably be called the intent of these terms of service, rather than by their strict literal interpretation.
22:23:05 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: error: parse error on input ‘>’
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22:25:11 <arseniiv> I found out https://proofwiki.org/wiki/Remainder_is_Primitive_Recursive and https://proofwiki.org/wiki/Quotient_is_Primitive_Recursive can be simplified slightly if taking x mod 0 = x rather than taking x mod 0 = 0 as is there
22:37:23 <b_jonas> arseniiv: I really only asked for division by a constant integer, so that's not too important to me
22:39:25 <arseniiv> b_jonas: I thought implementing multiplicative Minsky machine would be nice
22:41:11 <arseniiv> I have just finished writing floordiv, though nothing yet is tested
22:41:22 <b_jonas> I admit my reasoning isn't very sound, because I'm not sure that division and modulo really is enough to make a two-counter Minsky machine to work. in fact it might not be enough.
22:41:34 <b_jonas> for that old defn of primitive recursive that is
22:44:47 <arseniiv> a quick test of my head, when “m divides 0” is true? would it correspond to m mod 0 = 0, that is, m = 0? If not, I’ll have to write something more complex than (eq0 ∘ mod)
22:46:59 <arseniiv> “m is divisible by 0”, it should be
22:48:40 <arseniiv> 0 divides m iff ∃k. 0k = m, so we definitely have k = 0 then, and it’s consistent with my favorite mod
22:53:20 <arseniiv> hm I think we will need cons after all
22:55:03 <arseniiv> I was going to describe how one would write a function (State, RegisterValue) → (State, RegisterValue) and then write a function which iterates this one until State = Halt
22:56:57 <arseniiv> I’ll continue tomorrow, then, and now I’ll check if there is a page “Cantor pairing is …” on ProofWiki
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23:19:45 <ais523> 0 is the only number that's divisible by 0
23:20:09 <ais523> this sort of thing often becomes very important in declarative languages, I've been responsible for catching quite a few cases like that in Brachylog and persuading the author to implement them
23:20:25 <ais523> because they're important to avoid needing to write edge cases manually
23:20:31 <ais523> on similar reasoning, 0/0 = _
00:33:24 <arseniiv> ais523: agree that many edge cases could and should be incorporated in definitions
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00:33:49 <arseniiv> though I didn’t understand what 0/0 = _ means
00:37:16 <arseniiv> also it seems I’m not as lucky to have an exact construction of Cantor’s pairing inversion included in ProofWiki. So I will need to be helped by someone here and @told about it or (hopefully someone has some links), or else reinvent that particular wheel :D
00:39:01 <arseniiv> <arseniiv> agree that many edge cases could and should be incorporated in definitions => the day I had known about x mod 0 := x I was very very happy. It plays nice with ≡ (mod 0) and Z/0Z, it’s a total cake
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03:57:13 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63330&oldid=63329 * A * (+47) /* Computational class */ Bad language...
03:59:15 <esowiki> [[Talk:Swapping Turing Machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63331&oldid=63326 * A * (+7)
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04:04:25 <esowiki> [[Talk:Swapping Turing Machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63332&oldid=63331 * A * (+501)
04:05:06 <esowiki> [[Talk:Swapping Turing Machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63333&oldid=63332 * A * (-40) /* Turing-completeness via compiling to the Turing machine */ What
04:05:23 <esowiki> [[Talk:Swapping Turing Machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63334&oldid=63333 * A * (+0) /* Turing-completeness via compiling to the Turing machine */
04:05:56 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63335&oldid=63330 * A * (+77) /* Computational class */
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04:08:15 <esowiki> [[Talk:Swapping Turing Machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63336&oldid=63334 * A * (+318) /* Turing-completeness via compiling to the Turing machine */
04:09:40 <esowiki> [[Talk:Swapping Turing Machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63337&oldid=63336 * A * (+41) /* Turing-completeness via compiling to the Turing machine */
04:11:08 <esowiki> [[Talk:Swapping Turing Machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63338&oldid=63337 * A * (+156) /* Turing-completeness via compiling to the Turing machine */
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09:43:11 <vetrivel> I have a suggestion after going through the comments given for your project in hn.
09:43:13 <vetrivel> https://news.ycombinator.com/reply?id=20154008&goto=item%3Fid%3D20150179%2320154008
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10:20:12 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63339&oldid=63335 * A * (-122) /* Computational class */
10:24:07 <esowiki> [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63340&oldid=63293 * A * (+76) /* Computational class */
10:24:46 <esowiki> [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63341&oldid=63340 * A * (-3) /* Adar-= */ If I'm getting it right...
10:25:29 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63342&oldid=63339 * A * (-214) /* Computational class */
10:25:48 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63343&oldid=63342 * A * (-1938) /* Turing completeness proof waiting to be verified */
10:25:57 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63344&oldid=63343 * A * (-1146) /* Adar Interpreter */
10:26:50 <esowiki> [[Adar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63345&oldid=63341 * TuxCrafting * (-76) Undo revision 63340 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]]): by definition, a PDA can emulate a FSA. however, adar is a FSA, therefore it cannot emulate a PDA. i think you misunderstand "compile to"
10:27:28 <esowiki> [[Adar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63346&oldid=63345 * TuxCrafting * (+3) Undo revision 63341 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]]) revert FSA -> PDA category edit because it's not a PDA
10:28:41 <esowiki> [[Talk:Swapping Turing Machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63347&oldid=63338 * A * (-359) /* Turing-completeness via compiling to the Turing machine or via reduction */
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10:37:44 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63348&oldid=63344 * Salpynx * (+2274) /* Computational class */ raising you a single register counter machine, which may or may not be equivalent?
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10:52:30 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63349&oldid=63348 * Salpynx * (+16) /* Computational class */ clarifying that not all Adar programs are 1CMs,
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11:50:05 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63350&oldid=63349 * A * (+289)
11:50:25 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63351&oldid=63350 * A * (-2)
11:52:05 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63352&oldid=63351 * A * (-287) Undo; that is totally rubbish.
12:07:15 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63353&oldid=63352 * A * (+4) Hgi 's
12:09:09 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63354&oldid=63353 * TuxCrafting * (-5) don't change the wording of other people's posts
12:11:27 <esowiki> [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63355&oldid=63346 * A * (+87) /* Looping counter */
12:12:50 <esowiki> [[Adar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63356&oldid=63355 * TuxCrafting * (-87) Undo revision 63355 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]]) the spec explicitely says adar operates on *integers*. don't add examples which just abuse the implementation
12:30:38 <esowiki> [[Adar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63357&oldid=63356 * TuxCrafting * (-57) what. of course it's possible to make oscillators with a different form
12:30:44 <esowiki> [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63358&oldid=63357 * A * (-1) /* Adar-= */
12:36:53 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63359&oldid=63354 * A * (+390) /* Computational class */ Need verification for coverage of the formula
12:40:22 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63360&oldid=63359 * A * (+18) /* Request for a different form for oscillators */
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12:45:37 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63361&oldid=63360 * TuxCrafting * (+536)
12:46:26 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63362&oldid=63361 * TuxCrafting * (+0) wording
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12:50:39 <esowiki> [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63363&oldid=63358 * A * (+140) /* Oscillators */
12:51:41 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63364&oldid=63362 * A * (+237) /* Request for a different form for oscillators (for TuxCrafting) */
12:52:03 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63365&oldid=63364 * A * (+77) /* Request for a different form for oscillators (for TuxCrafting) */ sign
12:53:24 <esowiki> [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63366&oldid=63363 * A * (+50) /* Oscillators */
12:54:57 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63367&oldid=63365 * A * (-95) /* Request for a different form for oscillators (for TuxCrafting) */ golf my message
12:55:34 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63368&oldid=63367 * A * (-71) /* Request for a different form for oscillators (for TuxCrafting) */ Trim my message
12:58:11 <esowiki> [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63369&oldid=63366 * A * (+176) /* Examples */
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13:13:37 <esowiki> [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63370&oldid=63369 * A * (+249) /* Cat program */ Definitely more useful
13:21:17 <esowiki> [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63371&oldid=63370 * A * (+125) /* + interpreter */
13:25:50 <esowiki> [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63372&oldid=63371 * A * (+246) /* APLWSI interpreter */
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14:25:51 <esowiki> [[Adar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63373&oldid=63372 * A * (+31) /* Oscillators */
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14:34:28 <esowiki> [[NullScript 1]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=63374 * A * (+2422) Created page with "[[NullScript 1]] is an [[esoteric programming language]]. It is a subset of [[NullScript 2]] and inspired by [[NullScript 2]] and bf. == Commands == These are NullScript 1's..."
14:36:35 <esowiki> [[NullScript 1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63375&oldid=63374 * A * (-832)
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15:25:45 <fizzie> TIL (from Logitech): a keycap snapping off (legs broken, stuck inside the switch) during the warranty period while typing normally is "normal wear and tear".
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15:33:00 <fizzie> As a special one time courtesy only, because they're such Good Guys, they might still mail me a spare keycap. Maybe. If they feel like it.
15:33:41 <int-e> I can see how that's a problem... they do that 105 times and somebody can have a brand new looking keyboard!
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15:48:35 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63376&oldid=63368 * Ais523 * (+851) /* Computational class */ the point of no return
16:05:35 <esowiki> [[MIX (Knuth)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63377&oldid=62993 * B jonas * (+765) on bitwise ops
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16:13:00 <esowiki> [[MIX (Knuth)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63378&oldid=63377 * B jonas * (+0) INT opcode had wrong encoding
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17:13:43 <arseniiv> @tell b_jonas there is—I think, a less painful—pairing function based on bit interleaving (BTW like in tuxcrafting’s Minsky machine impl from yesterday’s active wiki page)
17:14:44 <arseniiv> I think implemeting this one (and projections) would be smooth, but I’ll do it a bit later
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18:12:29 <arseniiv> in a creole esolang, one has functions with names “::”, “fst” and “cdr”
18:13:06 <arseniiv> or maybe “cons”, “_1” and “snd”
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20:21:30 <esowiki> [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63379&oldid=63373 * Salpynx * (-5) /* Oscillators */ not really that complex, in fact "pretty trivial" was used to describe constructing other forms, just spread the effects over more registers
20:27:28 <esowiki> [[Adar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63380&oldid=63379 * Salpynx * (+19) Category: No IO
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20:49:34 <arseniiv> so, it’s not that painless as it appeared, if one is to stick to use μ only when it’s really necessary
20:50:02 <arseniiv> but maybe floor … sqrt things are even worse
20:50:58 <int-e> arseniiv: sorry, I'm too lazy to read the logs... what kind of target would that be for?
20:52:10 <arseniiv> int-e: traditional recursive functions, i. e. when we should return only one natural number, not an arbitrary tuple of them
20:53:19 <int-e> I would probably go with C(n+k+1,2) + C(k,1)...
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20:54:03 <int-e> Encoding <n,k> bijectively as natural numbers, where natural numbers start at 0.
20:54:06 <arseniiv> I almost have written cons, fst and snd by bit-interleaving, and I was distracted by many unexpected and emotional things today
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20:54:45 <int-e> bit interleaving sounds fairly painful in that context, to me.
20:54:46 <arseniiv> if not for those, I’d be quicker, but just now I’m quite melancholic instead
20:55:34 <arseniiv> int-e: yeah. At first I forgot that we work with S … Z and not bit strings. For bit strings, it’s a lot easier and more natural
20:55:42 <int-e> (the fun bit is that one can compute n+k+1 (the difficult part of fst and snd) by minimization.)
20:55:58 <int-e> Ah. Right, if you have bit strings then I'd agree.
20:56:31 <arseniiv> so I had to estimate bit length of a number (as it itself :D it would work) and do explicit bit shifts
20:56:37 <int-e> There is actually a flavor of primitive recursion that operates on bit strings... it's nicer that the successor based one when doing complexity theory.
20:57:25 <arseniiv> <int-e> (the fun bit is that one can compute n+k+1 (the difficult part of fst and snd) by minimization.) => I try to avoid it until the last step, when we run some Minsky machine
20:58:04 <int-e> So Bellantoni & Cook use that, for example, for their characterization of polytime computable functions in a restricted primitive recursive formalism.
20:58:31 <int-e> arseniiv: which is fine; it's actually *bounded* minimization, and that can be done with primitive recursion alone.
20:58:40 <arseniiv> <int-e> There is actually a flavor of primitive recursion that operates on bit strings... => yeah, I even had independently rediscovered it and made an eso YE<I always forgot that part>A
20:58:49 <int-e> But it's a useful building block to have.
20:59:47 <int-e> arseniiv: shameless plug: https://www.isa-afp.org/entries/Minsky_Machines.html
21:01:36 <int-e> (built on top of https://www.isa-afp.org/entries/Recursion-Theory-I.html which does all the hard things... including pairing, and going all the way up to undecidability. It's missing the Kleene normal form theorem though (recursive functions are *defined* as a single minimization over a primitive recursive predicate; so it's missing that that recursive functions are closed under minimization))
21:02:57 <arseniiv> int-e: as for the other way around, I had sketched up some procedure to make M. machines into μ-recursive functions, but these were not bare-bones ones, having tuple return values and several other useful additions
21:03:39 <arseniiv> I mean, functions into machines
21:08:16 <int-e> arseniiv: yeah the other direction looks pretty tedious.
21:13:48 <int-e> (Well, I guess the main challenge would be to come up with the right building blocks to make this easy.)
21:15:03 <int-e> The requested page title contains invalid characters: "<". <-- there goes my plan to add a redirect from YE<I always forgot that part>A to YEOOIIOOIOA
21:15:38 <int-e> (I probably wouldn't have followed through with it anyway... but I'm not sure.)
21:19:21 <arseniiv> <int-e> there goes my plan to add a redirect from YE<I always forgot that part>A to YEOOIIOOIOA => well, it would be not a bad idea indeed
21:20:22 <int-e> fungot: forget what?
21:20:22 <fungot> int-e: by charles fnord.), is composed, came into use; anterior to the existence of such a character, even in this country? are you not afraid of that. you have done exceedingly well by me.
21:21:02 <arseniiv> the final definitions look more or less nice:
21:21:02 <arseniiv> cons = chain plus (chain bitexpand π_1_2, chain shl1 (chain bitexpand
21:21:03 <arseniiv> (my haskellish syntax, and I mean “chain” everywhere, was partly a mistake)
21:21:32 <int-e> arseniiv: yeah I imagine some intermediate language would actually be useful for a Minsky machine -> recursive function translation.
21:22:01 <arseniiv> <int-e> wait what? => I still forget, so the present tense seems more appropriate :D
21:22:48 <arseniiv> int-e: also I used a C-like language to represent Minsky machines other way around
21:22:59 <int-e> arseniiv: how about "keep forgetting" while you're improving that part ;-)
21:23:09 <arseniiv> so one can easily syntactically compile
21:23:20 <arseniiv> int-e: yeah, I totally keep doing that
21:23:54 <int-e> arseniiv: you're in good company there... Turing did some close-to-structured programming for Turing Machines as well.
21:23:55 <arseniiv> as for the other one, I always need to open charmap to write its name
21:27:06 <int-e> arseniiv: I had great fun with that Minsky machine formalization. I don't actually have any higher level representation of minsky machines, but I made the lemmas composable in a nice way, allowing me to write pseudo-code as part of the proof: http://paste.debian.net/1087492/
21:28:05 <int-e> (I'll readily admit that this is not very readable, but the comments do actually correspond to the instantiated lemmas)
21:29:23 <arseniiv> certainly I agree that if you defined it yourself, it should appear more readable and natural
21:33:00 <arseniiv> I feel a great urge to play minecraft instead of finishing what I begun with that implementation. Everything seems ready to do semantically filled things but it’s late and I suddenly remember I’m lazy
21:33:26 <arseniiv> so I’ll go with the easy route
21:34:12 <arseniiv> there are villagers to transport by rail and be enslaved in a small box far away from the ground
21:35:03 <int-e> I try to avoid open-ended games. I don't always succeed.
21:35:30 <shachaf> int-e: you should play factorio hth
21:35:31 <arseniiv> yeah, it’s a total waste of time, so we’re on and off
21:36:25 <int-e> shachaf: I'm afraid to look what that is
21:38:26 <int-e> ah no that looks safe from me
21:38:37 <arseniiv> AFAIK there you are stranded on an alien planet and you build factories to fly from there in the end, but you don’t have to, and instead you may be allowed to build a gigantic display which plays a video of Sandstorm by Darude
21:39:36 <int-e> I'll sooner get back into SimCity. :P
21:40:45 <arseniiv> at least SimCity seems less wasteful than Sims
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21:55:05 <shachaf> You're always automating everything so there's pretty much no manual work to do.
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23:43:26 <salpynx> random esolang / abstract rewriting system idea:
23:43:43 <salpynx> a string-rewriting machine that outputs sequential "statements" or "questions" loosely directed at zero or more Oracle Machines. Oracle machines can either respond or not to the output.
23:44:02 <salpynx> If an OM reponds, that output is repeated as as input to another OM via a "copy-and-paste" mechanism. At some point in the execution cycle, the machine can rewrite all of its previous output with an ε-production, resulting in a context-free self-interaction of OMs, or potentially the empty string.
23:44:25 <salpynx> Thinking it could be called Talk or Talkative, with an alpha-privative prepended to reference the ε-production.
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02:20:42 <Sgeo__> Is this recognizable at all as a cosplay item? https://i.imgur.com/FJSEwEX.jpg
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03:12:27 <lizzie_swett[m]> Sgeo__: I don't recognize it as any particular item. But I'm probably not familiar with whatever it's from.
03:16:38 <Sgeo_> lizzie_swett[m], it's supposed to be a NetHack mimic acting like a strange object
03:17:03 <Sgeo_> https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/File:Strange_object.png
03:17:07 <Hooloovo0> I was going to say, it looks like a chest of some sort
03:18:02 <Hooloovo0> haven't played nethack with tiles :/
03:19:00 <Sgeo_> I also ordered a shirt that says ] mimic or strange object
03:19:02 <lizzie_swett[m]> Ah... like this tile. https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/File:Strange_object.png
03:19:21 <lizzie_swett[m]> I've played NetHack with tiles, but not enough to remember what the strange object sprite looked like.
03:42:09 <esowiki> [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63381&oldid=63380 * A * (+23) /* Adar-= */
03:48:53 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63382&oldid=63376 * A * (+132) /* Request for a different form for oscillators */
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04:00:59 <Asdf_> . o O (Odd theory for the deletion of TuxCrafting's GitHub account, may be spamming: After TuxCrafting's accounts had an acquication from Microsoft, Microsoft e-mailed to TuxCrafting saying: )
04:03:22 <Asdf_> "We will updating your computer, and your information will disappear. It might be a good idea to temporarilt delete your GitHub account." TuxCrafting was pertified, so they immediately deleted their GitHub account without thinking. After realizing that it was very foolish to do, TuxCrafting was full of remorse...
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04:06:31 <esowiki> [[Blindfolded Arithmetic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63383&oldid=61189 * A * (+13) Z3 is *not* a language. It is a computer architecture.
04:09:13 <esowiki> [[Got a match?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63384&oldid=62870 * A * (-34)
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10:16:21 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: re pairing function, if you only wanted natural numbers, and you can implement multiplication, then the usual (x,y) represented as binom(x+y,2)+y works fine
10:16:48 <wob_jonas> but if you have some language where you can handle strings of bits easier, then sure, feel free to interleave bits
10:17:36 <wob_jonas> (0) chooses a function different from both of those because it wants to handle a domain larger than just natural numbers, but even then their function isn't too inconvenient for natural numbers given that it already wants to have multiplication
10:24:08 <wob_jonas> Sgeo__: ah. I didn't recognize that because it doesn't look like a bracket.
10:34:00 <Taneb> What languages have an infinity floating point literal?
10:34:24 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63385&oldid=63382 * A * (+347)
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10:35:32 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63386&oldid=63385 * A * (+118)
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10:40:16 <wob_jonas> Taneb: J and some lisps have special syntax for it C and perl and python just have 9e999.
10:41:20 <wob_jonas> there's probably more but I don't know all languages off hand
10:41:51 <wob_jonas> of course some languages have library constants, that includes C and C++
10:42:31 <wob_jonas> `python3 -cimport math; print(math.inf)
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10:46:20 <wob_jonas> Taneb: some lisps have rational number literals, with a numerator and denominator, and 1/0 gives an infinity literal
10:46:36 <wob_jonas> in J, the syntax is a bare underscore for infinity
10:48:04 <tuxcrafting> readeability truly isn't J's primary objective lol
10:48:43 <myname> i don't think a literal for infinity is necessary if your language isn't highly directed at math problems
10:49:01 <wob_jonas> rust technically has them, but they're disabled by default: { #![allow(overflowing_literals)] 9e999 } works
10:49:45 <wob_jonas> myname: a literal isn't necessary even if it is directed at math problems, because you can use library constants, like C and C++ and python and rust have
10:50:18 <myname> yeah, but i could see why J has it. i could understand it for matlab, too
10:52:16 <wob_jonas> of course, whether you really want to write such things as numeric_limits<double>::infinity() insteead of INFINITY (and std::allocator<void>::difference_type instead of ptrdiff_t) is a matter of taste
10:52:44 <wob_jonas> but the C++ library does offer both
10:53:07 <wob_jonas> (technically INFINITY is of float type, so that's not quite equivalent, but they convert easily)
10:54:04 <tuxcrafting> although it's hacky and breaks down if you use eg bcd floats which support an exponent of 999
10:54:27 <tuxcrafting> (actually maybe they don't but like if you use 128 or 256-bit floats or w/e)
10:54:31 <wob_jonas> tuxcrafting: sure, sometimes you have to write 9e9999 instead
10:58:14 <fizzie> MATLAB has the `inf` function, but maybe that doesn't quite count as a literal, even if it's used pretty much like one. (You can also give it some arguments to create different-sized matrices with inf in all elements, in which case it looks even less like a literal.)
11:00:46 <fizzie> Taneb: R7RS introduces +inf.0 and -inf.0 into the <number> syntax, though infinities in general are optional.
11:03:02 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63387&oldid=63386 * A * (+462)
11:05:37 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63388&oldid=63387 * A * (+502)
11:07:26 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63389&oldid=63388 * TuxCrafting * (+390) trigger value can be anything by shifting the initial value
11:10:49 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63390&oldid=63389 * A * (+284)
11:11:21 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63391&oldid=63390 * A * (+78) /* Computational class */ Sign my tag
11:13:58 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63392&oldid=63391 * A * (+291)
11:14:22 <esowiki> [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63393&oldid=63381 * A * (+4)
11:19:12 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63394&oldid=63392 * TuxCrafting * (+460)
11:19:13 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63395&oldid=63394 * A * (+22)
11:25:50 <esowiki> [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63396&oldid=63393 * A * (+115) /* Looping counter */
11:26:34 <esowiki> [[Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63397&oldid=63396 * A * (+100) /* Looping counter */
11:29:01 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63398&oldid=63395 * A * (-162) I have implemented conditional statements, which could suggest that Adar is more powerful than people suspect it to be.
11:30:03 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63399&oldid=63398 * A * (-3) Bad indent
11:31:18 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63400&oldid=63399 * A * (-290) *No* it is insulting to repeat what others say.
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11:58:24 <wob_jonas> It's so good to delete obsolete parts of this program. I just hope I won't need to resurrect them later.
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12:45:52 <esowiki> [[Talk:Adar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63401&oldid=63400 * A * (-47) /* Computational class */
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13:51:33 <esowiki> [[Backshift]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=63402 * A * (+513) Created page with "[[Backshift]] is another sorting algorithm that aims to implement sorting in clean code. ==Algorithm== <pre> Take 4321 as an example. while move_left_number != 0: move_le..."
13:54:43 <esowiki> [[Talk:Backshift]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=63403 * TuxCrafting * (+272) Created page with "This doesn't work. Take <code>3124</code> for example; it will try to move <code>4</code>, but since the list is already of length 4, it halts, despite it being obviously unso..."
14:10:06 <esowiki> [[Talk:Backshift]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63404&oldid=63403 * A * (+197)
14:11:57 <esowiki> [[Backshift]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63405&oldid=63402 * A * (+221)
14:12:48 <esowiki> [[Talk:Backshift]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63406&oldid=63404 * A * (+171)
14:13:38 <esowiki> [[Backshift]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63407&oldid=63405 * A * (+57) Specify
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14:16:53 <esowiki> [[Backshift]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63408&oldid=63407 * A * (+159)
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14:18:15 <esowiki> [[Talk:Backshift]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63409&oldid=63406 * A * (+51)
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14:22:53 <esowiki> [[Backshift]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63410&oldid=63408 * A * (+86) /* Algorithm */
14:28:57 <rain2> how do i execute commands
14:29:03 <rain2> `bash yes | head | wc
14:29:04 <HackEso> bash: yes | head | wc: No such file or directory
14:29:31 <int-e> you have a wisde range of choices
14:29:34 <HackEso> ` is the prefix to greatness.
14:29:40 <rain2> `` yes | head | wc
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14:50:16 <esowiki> [[Ellipsis]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63411&oldid=33657 * Arcorann * (+7) /* See also */
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17:36:27 <esowiki> [[Blindfolded Arithmetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63412&oldid=63383 * Ais523 * (-13) Undo revision 63383 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]]): computational architectures' instruction sets can be interpreted as languages, but going the other way is harder, so the revision is less clear
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20:04:47 <b_jonas> subscribe to `ioccclist if you want to find out quickly when the sources are released by the way
20:08:06 <shachaf> `` cat bin/ioccclist | rot13
20:08:09 <HackEso> rpub -a "$(onfranzr "$0")${@:+ }$@: "; gnvy -a+2 "$0" | knetf; rkvg \ o_wbanf
20:15:02 <b_jonas> it works like the other list commands, you can just append a line with your nick
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21:05:37 <esowiki> [[MIX (Knuth)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63413&oldid=63378 * B jonas * (+0) /* MIX256 */ the field numbers were wrong
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21:07:33 <esowiki> [[MIX (Knuth)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63414&oldid=63413 * B jonas * (+63) /* MIX256 */ further error
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01:34:01 <esowiki> [[Backshift]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63415&oldid=63410 * Salpynx * (+1873) over-analysis of this algorithm
01:36:33 <esowiki> [[Talk:Backshift]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63416&oldid=63409 * Salpynx * (+326) share code
02:01:24 <esowiki> [[Backshift]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63417&oldid=63415 * Salpynx * (+160) /* External resources */
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03:55:25 <esowiki> [[Backshift]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63418&oldid=63417 * A * (-307)
04:57:34 -!- lizzie_swett[m] has changed nick to tswett[m].
05:00:11 <tswett[m]> Maybe I'll go back to Liz again some day, but for now I'm sticking to Tanner.
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05:49:08 <kmc> tswett[m]: okay!
05:50:03 <kmc> welcome back :)
05:51:28 <kmc> I spent months looking for a new name and then decided that my original given name (Keegan) is just fine
06:34:23 <Sgeo> (async () => { var foo = await { then(f) { f(1); f(2); } }; console.log(foo); })()
06:34:31 <Sgeo> I am secretly disappointed that that only prints 1
06:37:27 <Sgeo> Doing this works though:
06:37:28 <Sgeo> (async () => { var foo = await { then(f) { window.secret = f; } }; console.log(foo); })()
06:37:32 <Sgeo> Then calling secret later
06:37:38 <shachaf> it's not a secret now that you're blabbed
06:37:48 <Sgeo> ....just realized how unimpressive that is.
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08:50:59 <HackEso> 913) <olsner> as long as you're in company where no-one knows both, you can always say either "that's just like welsh ll" or "that's just like klingon tlh" \ 1330) <b_jonas> I don't care for the bf backend as long as it doesn't make the rest of ayacc harder to sue
08:51:46 <HackEso> The 1 is just for disambiguation.
08:51:50 <HackEso> `1 <cmd> is equivalent to `` <cmd>, except that it splits the output into irc-sized pieces. The next pieces can be viewed with `spam. See also `2. Confusingly the obvious generalization of `4.
08:51:58 <HackEso> 10086:2017-01-02 <int-̈e> revert \ 10085:2017-01-02 <rdocöc> learn 1 divided by 1 is 0 \ 5224:2015-01-02 <oerjän> learn The 1 is just for disambiguation. \ 5223:2015-01-02 <oerjän> learn 1 is just for disambiguation.
08:52:21 <shachaf> oerjan: What's that all about?
08:53:00 <HackEso> `2 <cmd> is equivalent to `1 <cmd>, except that it starts displaying the _second_ output piece. Useful when you've already run a command forgetting to use `1.
08:55:09 <int-e> shachaf: funny, that one is partly my fault. https://esolangs.org/logs/2015-01-02.html#lAi
08:56:47 <shachaf> In the case of Star Wars, 4 is just for disambiguation?
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08:57:33 <wob_jonas> tswett[m]: somehow I don't think "boop" is the appropriate sound effect for that
08:59:58 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: 2019: not found
09:00:40 <int-e> Oh that tradition died last year already.
09:03:01 <HackEso> #!/bin/sh \ if [ $(date +%Y) = "$(basename "$0")" ] \ then echo "Hello, world!" \ fi
09:03:49 <int-e> `` hbrl cbt # do we have this?
09:03:50 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/`: line 5: hbrl: command not found
09:04:29 <int-e> `` cwt oerjan # and this would be a silly name for `?
09:04:30 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/`: line 5: cwt: command not found
09:05:18 <FireFly> HackEsonese is an interesing sh dialect
09:05:49 <int-e> . o O ( cat by tail )
09:06:30 <FireFly> beats the other two expansions of CBT that I've enountered
09:07:23 <int-e> chicken, bacon, tuna
09:21:00 <shachaf> Is wisdom/oerjan the canonical wisdom or something?
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09:22:58 <esowiki> [[Backshift]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63419&oldid=63418 * Salpynx * (+844) 'Hello World' in a sort algorithm... Bogosort can't do that!
09:31:22 <esowiki> [[Talk:Backshift]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63420&oldid=63416 * Salpynx * (+787) sharing more code
09:51:16 <shachaf> Today is June 13th. It's Pigeon Appreciation Day.
09:57:59 <int-e> The pigeon hole principle: In order to find the number of pigeons, count the pigeon holes, then add 1.
09:59:34 <lambdabot> *** "pigeon" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
09:59:35 <lambdabot> n 1: wild and domesticated birds having a heavy body and short
09:59:37 <fizzie> Not a very flattering description.
10:00:04 <lambdabot> *** "lawyer" devil "The Devil's Dictionary (1881-1906)"
10:00:04 <lambdabot> LAWYER, n. One skilled in circumvention of the law.
10:00:25 <lambdabot> *** "law" devil "The Devil's Dictionary (1881-1906)"
10:00:25 <lambdabot> Once Law was sitting on the bench,
10:00:26 <esowiki> [[Backshift]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63421&oldid=63419 * A * (-160) /* Test */
10:00:35 <lambdabot> *** "cat" devil "The Devil's Dictionary (1881-1906)"
10:00:35 <lambdabot> CAT, n. A soft, indestructible automaton provided by nature to be
10:00:35 <lambdabot> kicked when things go wrong in the domestic circle.
10:01:26 <esowiki> [[Backshift]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63422&oldid=63421 * A * (+66)
10:02:07 <esowiki> [[Backshift]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63423&oldid=63422 * A * (+82)
10:07:46 <esowiki> [[Talk:Backshift]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63424&oldid=63420 * A * (+271)
10:11:37 <esowiki> [[Talk:Backshift]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63425&oldid=63424 * A * (+82) /* Add a characteristic due to the Unary Sorting issue */
10:11:57 <esowiki> [[Talk:Backshift]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63426&oldid=63425 * A * (+0) /* Add a characteristic due to the Unary Sorting issue */
10:15:47 <esowiki> [[Backshift]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63427&oldid=63423 * A * (+106)
10:20:13 <esowiki> [[Backshift]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63428&oldid=63427 * A * (+107) TM
10:24:40 <esowiki> [[Backshift]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63429&oldid=63428 * A * (-70) /* Truth-machine */
10:25:36 <esowiki> [[Backshift]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63430&oldid=63429 * A * (+71) /* Inverse Truth-machine */
10:26:24 <esowiki> [[Backshift]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63431&oldid=63430 * A * (+18)
10:31:03 <esowiki> [[Backshift]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63432&oldid=63431 * A * (+2) /* Truth-machine */
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10:36:19 <esowiki> [[Talk:Backshift]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63433&oldid=63426 * A * (-353) /* Add a characteristic due to the Unary Sorting issue */ No, due to considerations for short code
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11:07:12 <esowiki> [[Backshift]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63434&oldid=63432 * A * (+0)
11:11:24 <esowiki> [[Talk:Backshift]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63435&oldid=63433 * A * (+315) /* Modified version of the removed code from the main page */
11:13:12 <esowiki> [[Talk:Backshift]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63436&oldid=63435 * A * (+77) /* Computational class */ SIgn
11:15:22 <esowiki> [[Backshift]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63437&oldid=63434 * A * (-3) /* Examples */
11:17:12 <esowiki> [[RarVM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63438&oldid=62402 * Void * (-90)
11:17:44 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63439&oldid=63040 * A * (+203) /* Assembly language */
11:18:37 <wob_jonas> if only utf-8 has been invented earlier, we now wouldn't have this stupid difference where pathnames are byte strings on unix but utf-16 code element strings on windows
11:19:04 <esowiki> [[Backshift]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63440&oldid=63437 * A * (-201) /* Inverse Truth-machine */ this does not work now...
11:20:13 <wob_jonas> also it would make utf-8 strings shorter because code points below 0x800 would be assigned more sanely
11:23:16 <esowiki> [[Talk:Backshift]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63441&oldid=63436 * A * (+59) /* Modified version of the removed code from the main page */
11:25:49 <fizzie> My news feed told me the 5.2 Linux kernel includes patches where EXT4 file systems can be case-insensitive on a per-directory basis.
11:28:08 <wob_jonas> fizzie: yeah, I know. basically if they have to make a module all the ugly unicode casing rules to support windows file systems, and work as a server, then it's not much of a cost to support that for other fses too, and could help interaction with windows
11:36:33 <esowiki> [[Backshift]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63442&oldid=63440 * A * (+101) /* Inverse Truth-machine */
11:37:32 <esowiki> [[Backshift]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63443&oldid=63442 * A * (-13) /* Inverse Truth-machine */
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12:12:56 <esowiki> [[Backshift]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63444&oldid=63443 * A * (+60) /* Examples */
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12:27:20 <esowiki> [[Backshift]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63445&oldid=63444 * A * (-11) /* Infinite loop */
12:27:34 <esowiki> [[Backshift]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63446&oldid=63445 * A * (+10) /* Hello, World! */
12:35:17 <esowiki> [[Backshift]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63447&oldid=63446 * A * (+137) /* Examples */
12:36:32 <esowiki> [[Backshift]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63448&oldid=63447 * A * (+29) /* Cat program */
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13:03:28 <esowiki> [[Backshift]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63449&oldid=63448 * A * (+0) /* Hexadecimal */ backshift("backshift",16) -> "backshift"
13:04:18 <esowiki> [[Backshift]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63450&oldid=63449 * A * (+0) /* Hexadecimal */ No
13:04:45 <esowiki> [[Backshift]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63451&oldid=63450 * A * (+0) /* Hexadecimal */
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13:07:50 <esowiki> [[Backshift]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63452&oldid=63451 * A * (+38) /* Infinite loop */
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13:52:31 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at character '\129300'
13:55:22 <int-e> > echo "🤔" | od -tx1
13:55:24 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at character '\129300'
13:55:34 <int-e> `` echo "🤔" | od -tx1
13:55:35 <HackEso> 0000000 f0 9f a4 94 0a \ 0000005
13:57:47 <int-e> I guess that's a sort of version test... ghc-8.8 accepts that
14:01:28 <esowiki> [[Backshift]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63453&oldid=63452 * A * (+25)
14:04:29 <esowiki> [[Backshift]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63454&oldid=63453 * A * (+110)
14:04:38 <esowiki> [[Backshift]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63455&oldid=63454 * A * (+1)
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14:07:02 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63456&oldid=63028 * A * (+169) /* BackFlip */
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15:36:44 <arseniiv> for my part, I continue procrastinating :( :)
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15:45:29 <esowiki> [[User:Arseniiv/Subsandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63457&oldid=59251 * Arseniiv * (+226) mathematic declension
15:45:36 <myname> since i started to work with xquery, i start to hate :)
15:46:35 <arseniiv> hm does someone know is there any sufficient demand of MathJax/KaTeX/alike being added to the wiki?
15:47:19 <arseniiv> (personally, I don’t need it right now and in any foreseeable future, I think)
15:53:14 <arseniiv> myname: I meant, not as a page describing it :D
15:53:43 <arseniiv> though base TeX language seems pretty eso to me, and the way Knuth coded in it
15:54:09 <arseniiv> though I hadn’t yet read the TeX book by myself
16:15:43 <esowiki> [[Suich]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=63458 * TuxCrafting * (+3416) Created page with "Suich is an esoteric programming language created by [[User:TuxCrafting]]. = Introduction = A Suich program is made of one or more lines. The lines are all padded with nops..."
16:17:43 <esowiki> [[User:TuxCrafting]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63459&oldid=63261 * TuxCrafting * (+12)
16:18:45 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63460&oldid=63263 * TuxCrafting * (+12)
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18:06:25 <arseniiv> my bit-interleaving cons impl turns out to be working correctly only for 0, 0 and 1, 0
18:06:43 <arseniiv> or maybe cons is okay and fst and snd are to blame
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18:29:10 <int-e> shachaf: so contrary to my previous belief, MD5_Update with a fixed message block is *not* a random permutation.
18:41:49 <int-e> b_jonas: usenet death penalty?
18:48:26 <arseniiv> you won’t believe it, the bug was in addition definition
18:49:20 <int-e> ... oh the primitive recursion endeavor
18:50:10 <int-e> I'll believe it simply because it's the last thing I'd check ;-)
18:50:54 <arseniiv> also there are Gollum-ish names like “testConses”
18:51:33 <arseniiv> int-e: indeed, I was going top-bottom too
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18:54:04 <b_jonas> arseniiv: what are you programming where you're defining addition
18:55:31 <arseniiv> b_jonas: I was defining cons, fst and snd via that bare prim. rec. formalism, now I tested them together via Haskell
18:57:23 <arseniiv> now I am moderately confident in these defs and maybe tomorrow we’ll write a Minsky machine translation proc.
18:58:02 <arseniiv> and by “we” I mean myself probably
19:01:19 <b_jonas> arseniiv: nah, if you have cons, car and cdr working then you don't have to go through Minsky
19:01:36 <b_jonas> you can just translate any bloop program directly
19:01:45 <b_jonas> you have to turn them to pure functional
19:02:02 <arseniiv> b_jonas: maaaybe. I want to see it now, Minsky I mean
19:02:06 <b_jonas> I said minsky machine only because I wasn't sure there was a reasonable way to implement cons and car and cdr
19:02:50 <arseniiv> I’ll leave bloop translation to you B)
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20:37:32 <arseniiv> b_jonas: yeah, in the end I find Minsky translation tedious too :D
20:37:49 <arseniiv> maybe another day I will feel different
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21:04:04 <arseniiv> what examples are here of Turing tarpits being able to describe their own syntax (in a way like lisp’s (quasi|un|)quotes)? Something really minimal
21:07:54 <arseniiv> not just quotes but also some facility to meddle with them
21:09:00 <arseniiv> it seems to demand adding many entities to the syntax, and I’d like it to stay minimal
21:14:32 <b_jonas> arseniiv: uh, Befunge? no, that's not a Turing tarpit
21:15:44 <arseniiv> b_jonas: Befunge is too diverse, yes
21:16:10 <arseniiv> maybe something lambda-calculous
21:17:51 <rain1> brainfuck could almost count
21:18:05 <rain1> since you can quote bf code by just changing each char to +++++++...+++++>
21:18:45 <rain1> lambd calc and unlambda can express its own syntax with the 'closures as records trick'
21:18:53 <b_jonas> the problem with brainfuck is that if you represent the code, you can't write a straightforward eval that runs it, you need an ugly full simulation
21:19:16 <b_jonas> try unlambda or underload, there you can easily eval a tree repr of the code back to actual unquoted combinators
21:19:18 <arseniiv> it seems in a real tarpit it’s easier to write self-evaluator than to enhance the syntax and be left with something nice
21:27:16 <b_jonas> it really depends on what you want
21:29:31 <arseniiv> maybe 7, I didn’t read it solidly yet
21:31:01 <b_jonas> it's probably not a better example than underload or unlambda
21:32:08 <shachaf> int-e: Is that the compression function?
21:34:45 <HackEso> starter pokemon? ¯\(°_o)/¯
21:47:08 <b_jonas> ``` set -e; cd share/mtg; test -f MagicCompRules_20181005.txt; rm -v MagicCompRules-20181005.txt
21:47:10 <HackEso> removed 'MagicCompRules-20181005.txt'
21:47:20 <b_jonas> `fetch share/mtg/MagicCompRules_20190612.txt https://media.wizards.com/2019/downloads/MagicCompRules%2020190612.txt
21:47:21 <HackEso> 2019-06-13 21:47:21 URL:https://media.wizards.com/2019/downloads/MagicCompRules%2020190612.txt [726098/726098] -> "share/mtg/MagicCompRules_20190612.txt" [1]
21:47:51 <b_jonas> ``` set -e; cd share/mtg; tr -d \\r <MagicCompRules_20190612.txt > rules.txt
21:48:02 <b_jonas> ``` head share/mtg/rules.txt
21:48:07 <HackEso> Magic: The Gathering Comprehensive Rules \ \ These rules are effective as of June 14, 2019. \ \ Introduction \ \ This document is the ultimate authority for Magic: The Gathering® competitive game play. It consists of a series of numbered rules followed by a glossary. Many of the numbered rules are divided into subrules, and each separate rule and subrule of the game has its own number. (Note that subrules skip the letters “l” and “o” due
21:48:23 <b_jonas> ``` grep -Ei 'anteater|pangolin' share/mtg/rules.txt
21:48:24 <HackEso> 205.3m Creatures and tribals share their lists of subtypes; these subtypes are called creature types. The creature types are Advisor, Aetherborn, Ally, Angel, Antelope, Ape, Archer, Archon, Army, Artificer, Assassin, Assembly-Worker, Atog, Aurochs, Avatar, Azra, Badger, Barbarian, Basilisk, Bat, Bear, Beast, Beeble, Berserker, Bird, Blinkmoth, Boar, Bringer, Brushwagg, Camarid, Camel, Caribou, Carrier, Cat, Centaur, Cephalid, Chimera, Citizen, Cleric, Cock
21:49:28 <b_jonas> zzo38: ^ you got that one, right?
21:50:36 <b_jonas> `good dog # for the fetching
21:50:36 <HackEso> Your friends are strong. Take their help.
21:58:42 <HackEso> FireFly was a short-running but well-loved sci-fi TV series released in 2003, starring Nathan Fillion and directed and written by Joss Whedon.
21:59:21 <b_jonas> `relearn FireFly was a short-running but well-loved sci-fi TV series released in 2003, starring Nathan Fillion and directed and written by Joss Whedon. It's also a room whose gimmick is that it gets darker as you kill the enemies.
21:59:22 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: relearn: not found
21:59:29 <b_jonas> `learn FireFly was a short-running but well-loved sci-fi TV series released in 2003, starring Nathan Fillion and directed and written by Joss Whedon. It's also a room whose gimmick is that it gets darker as you kill the enemies.
21:59:30 <HackEso> Relearned 'firefly': FireFly was a short-running but well-loved sci-fi TV series released in 2003, starring Nathan Fillion and directed and written by Joss Whedon. It's also a room whose gimmick is that it gets darker as you kill the enemies.
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22:03:51 <shachaf> int-e: Is there a reason to expect it to be a permutation?
22:06:23 <int-e> shachaf: not particularly though the way it is there is probably a reset sequence for the MD5 update; a sequence of blocks that produces the same state regardless of the initial state. But it's bound to be quite long...
22:06:58 <b_jonas> https://esolangs.org/logs/2015-08-06.html#lBd
22:07:17 <b_jonas> apparently `flist was intended to be update notifications for oren's font, but I think it got forgotten
22:07:49 <b_jonas> int-e: how long though, on the order of magnitude?
22:07:53 <b_jonas> and how hard is it to find?
22:08:50 <b_jonas> ``` echo $IRC_NICK >> bin/flist
22:10:11 <b_jonas> and `llist is some joke, but I don't quite understand it https://esolangs.org/logs/2013-07-12.html#lXi
22:11:50 <b_jonas> and yeah, `mlist is some joke too https://esolangs.org/logs/2013-03-03.html#lTj
22:12:05 <int-e> It won't be feasible. I expect you can collapse the state space down to 2^64 by doing things randomly in 2^70 or so blocks (keeping track of all 2^128 states at first), and then target remaining pairs by choosing appropriate messages, using another 2^65 blocks.
22:12:34 <b_jonas> int-e: I didn't expect to be feasable, just wondering about the theoretical length
22:14:16 <b_jonas> but yeah, md5 is kind of old and not recommended
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22:17:04 <int-e> b_jonas: sha-2 shares the same property, though the state space that you'd have to collapse is much larger.
22:17:29 <int-e> 2^256 or 2^512 depending on the variant
22:17:41 <b_jonas> so the state space is the same size as the output?
22:19:19 <int-e> It depends on the variant. yes for SHA-256 and SHA-512; no for the truncated versions SHA-224, SHA-384, SHA-512/224, SHA-512/256.
22:20:11 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
22:21:08 <int-e> Oh, also yes for MD5 and SHA-1.
22:54:19 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Sugarfi * New user account
22:56:52 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63461&oldid=63258 * Sugarfi * (+228) /* Introductions */
23:03:25 <esowiki> [[Photon]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=63462 * Sugarfi * (+140) Created page with "===Photon=== '''Photon''' is an esolang where each command has the same structure. They take the form of two arguments passed to a function."
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00:42:37 <esowiki> [[Photon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63463&oldid=63462 * Sugarfi * (+3093) /* Photon */
00:43:35 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63464&oldid=63460 * Sugarfi * (+13) /* P */
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08:14:56 <esowiki> [[Backshift]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63465&oldid=63455 * A * (+135)
08:16:05 <esowiki> [[Talk:Backshift]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63466&oldid=63441 * A * (+722)
08:20:36 <esowiki> [[Talk:Backshift]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63467&oldid=63466 * A * (+494) A technique!
08:22:07 <esowiki> [[Talk:Backshift]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63468&oldid=63467 * A * (+150)
08:22:59 <esowiki> [[Talk:Backshift]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63469&oldid=63468 * A * (+46)
08:27:24 <esowiki> [[Talk:Backshift]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63470&oldid=63469 * A * (-10) /* Modified version of the removed code from the main page */
08:32:22 <esowiki> [[Talk:Backshift]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63471&oldid=63470 * A * (-69) /* Modified version of the removed code from the main page */
08:32:39 <esowiki> [[Talk:Backshift]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63472&oldid=63471 * A * (+0) /* Modified version of the removed code from the main page */
08:37:39 <esowiki> [[Talk:Suich]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=63473 * A * (+476) Created page with "==Unclear documentation== I don't think the [[Truth-machine]] for Suich is well-documented; for example, if a 0x02 character was inputted into the console, the line should be..."
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08:43:05 <esowiki> [[Talk:Suich]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63474&oldid=63473 * TuxCrafting * (+199)
08:43:33 <esowiki> [[Suich]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63475&oldid=63458 * TuxCrafting * (+0) command counter -> command pointer
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08:46:53 <esowiki> [[Talk:Suich]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63476&oldid=63474 * A * (+398) I am afraid that I will encounter another edit conflict.
08:49:11 <esowiki> [[Talk:Suich]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63477&oldid=63476 * A * (+253) /* Computational class */
08:50:17 <esowiki> [[Talk:Suich]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63478&oldid=63477 * A * (+192) /* Computational class */
08:51:44 <esowiki> [[Talk:Suich]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63479&oldid=63478 * A * (+1) /* Computational class */
08:53:23 <esowiki> [[Talk:Suich]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63480&oldid=63479 * A * (+194) /* Unclear documentation */
08:54:23 <esowiki> [[Talk:Suich]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63481&oldid=63480 * TuxCrafting * (+609)
09:17:49 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Salpynx * uploaded "[[File:Terminating states of backshift algorithm.png]]"
09:26:40 <esowiki> [[Talk:Backshift]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63483&oldid=63472 * Salpynx * (+820) graphing the terminating states, and long cycles
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10:09:43 <wob_jonas> `pbflist https://pbfcomics.com/comics/friendly/
10:09:44 <HackEso> pbflist https://pbfcomics.com/comics/friendly/: shachaf Sgeo quintopia ion b_jonas Cale
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10:24:10 <esowiki> [[Suich]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63484&oldid=63475 * A * (+134) /* Examples */
10:29:07 <esowiki> [[Suich]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63485&oldid=63484 * A * (+19) /* Cat program */
10:32:02 <esowiki> [[Suich]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63486&oldid=63485 * TuxCrafting * (-19) Undo revision 63485 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]]) no need for a cat that doesn't do eof when the existing one handles it correctly
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10:46:29 <esowiki> [[Suich]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63487&oldid=63486 * TuxCrafting * (-16) better looping counter
10:50:06 <esowiki> [[Talk:Suich]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63488&oldid=63481 * A * (+260)
10:53:29 <esowiki> [[Talk:Suich]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63489&oldid=63488 * TuxCrafting * (+253)
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11:14:00 <HackEso> ysaclist 90: boily shachaf
11:17:18 <shachaf> This YSAC contains kittens instead of the usual pooches.
11:20:07 <esowiki> [[Talk:Suich]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63490&oldid=63489 * TuxCrafting * (+1170) decrementpocalypse -> suich conversion
11:22:19 <esowiki> [[Talk:Suich]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63491&oldid=63490 * TuxCrafting * (+92) sign
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11:47:29 <esowiki> [[Suich]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63492&oldid=63487 * A * (+73) /* Looping counter */
11:54:10 <esowiki> [[Suich]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63493&oldid=63492 * TuxCrafting * (+54)
12:01:04 <esowiki> [[Talk:Suich]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63494&oldid=63491 * A * (+382) /* "Decrementpocalypse" Suich */
12:01:26 <esowiki> [[Talk:Suich]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63495&oldid=63494 * A * (+4) /* "Decrementpocalypse" Suich */
12:03:00 <esowiki> [[Talk:Suich]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63496&oldid=63495 * A * (+159) /* "Decrementpocalypse" Suich */
12:04:39 <esowiki> [[Talk:Suich]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63497&oldid=63496 * TuxCrafting * (+277)
12:04:58 <esowiki> [[Talk:Suich]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63498&oldid=63497 * A * (+87) /* "Decrementpocalypse" Suich */
12:05:32 <esowiki> [[Talk:Suich]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63499&oldid=63498 * A * (-87) Undo revision 63498 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]]) which is garbage
12:11:12 <esowiki> [[Talk:Suich]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63500&oldid=63499 * A * (-15) /* "Decrementpocalypse" Suich */
12:22:24 <esowiki> [[Suich]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63501&oldid=63493 * A * (+166)
12:25:22 <esowiki> [[Suich]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63502&oldid=63501 * A * (+34) /* Hello, world program */
12:28:20 <esowiki> [[Suich]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63503&oldid=63502 * A * (+170) /* Hello, world program */
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12:33:47 <esowiki> [[Suich]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63504&oldid=63503 * A * (+97) /* Hello, world program */
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13:31:59 <esowiki> [[Skim machine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=63505 * A * (+594) Created page with "[[Skim machine]] is a language that is a trivial substitution of the [[Minsky machine]]. ==Syntax== * INC a: Increment the accumulator a. Jump to the next instruction by defau..."
13:32:48 <esowiki> [[Skim machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63506&oldid=63505 * A * (+106)
13:37:42 <esowiki> [[Skim machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63507&oldid=63506 * A * (-1)
13:38:04 <esowiki> [[Skim machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63508&oldid=63507 * A * (+2)
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13:40:03 <wob_jonas> oh wow, so in python3, the += operator can append to an array in place rather than create a new array. confusing.
13:40:13 <wob_jonas> luckily there's a clearer alias, the .extend method
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13:50:46 <esowiki> [[Talk:Backshift]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63509&oldid=63483 * A * (-81) /* Computational class */
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14:18:34 <shachaf> Does that mutate the array? Throw an exception?
14:19:53 <FireFly> probably neither since you're asking, but I would expect it to mutate the list
14:22:04 <shachaf> The answer is not neither.
14:23:18 <wob_jonas> shachaf: I think it mutates the array
14:23:56 <shachaf> The answer is that it mutates the array, and then throws an exception.
14:24:17 <FireFly> heh, I was thinking it might be 'both' when you said it wasn't 'neither'
14:24:42 <FireFly> that idly reminds me of something I ran into at some point: https://twitter.com/FireyFly/status/731643633343070208
14:25:35 <wob_jonas> so the += operator is rigged so that it can do either in-place or modifying stuff?
14:26:06 <shachaf> Right, because you can also += integers.
14:26:43 <wob_jonas> https://docs.python.org/3/faq/programming.html#faq-augmented-assignment-tuple-error
14:27:06 <wob_jonas> shachaf: I assumed that the += on integers would just call the method for +
14:27:15 <wob_jonas> with no special case for the in-place stuff
14:27:44 <wob_jonas> but I guess special-casing += would make sense
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15:13:13 <esowiki> [[Tab]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=63510 * A * (+1243) Created page with "[[Tab]] is an [[esoteric programming language]] inspired by tabs in a web browser after discovering that closing a previously clicked page leads to a special mechanism in A's..."
15:14:09 <esowiki> [[Tab]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63511&oldid=63510 * A * (-21) /* Syntax */
15:20:15 <esowiki> [[Tab]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63512&oldid=63511 * A * (+333)
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16:10:38 <esowiki> [[Suich]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63513&oldid=63504 * TuxCrafting * (-36) can be made more efficient, but better than a partial one
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16:49:47 <esowiki> [[Suich]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63514&oldid=63513 * A * (+8) Undo revision 63513 by [[Special:Contributions/TuxCrafting|TuxCrafting]] ([[User talk:TuxCrafting|talk]]): You accidentally removed the rectwrap; I forgot to remove the extra comment, which makes it misleading.
16:52:28 <esowiki> [[Suich]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63515&oldid=63514 * A * (+4) /* Hello, world program */ Oh, and add link. I think your program is longer than mine(which makes yours less efficient)
18:03:40 <esowiki> [[SMBF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63516&oldid=44841 * Odog8 * (+24) just asking them why they're not redirecting
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18:10:47 <esowiki> [[Self-modifying Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63517&oldid=50036 * Odog8 * (+82)
18:44:40 <esowiki> [[Obfuscated Tiny C]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63518&oldid=62846 * B jonas * (-7) minimal fix
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20:42:56 <esowiki> [[SMBF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63519&oldid=63516 * Ais523 * (-24) Undo revision 63516 by [[Special:Contributions/Odog8|Odog8]] ([[User talk:Odog8|talk]]): additional text on a redirect is typically used to categorise or explain the redirect, but Esolang isn't redirect-heavy enough to need that
20:47:08 <esowiki> [[Suich]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63520&oldid=63515 * Ais523 * (+5) /* Introduction */ clarify an ambiguity in the spec, with reference to the example programs and reference interpreter
20:50:04 <esowiki> [[Suich]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63521&oldid=63520 * Ais523 * (+19) fix heading size to our usual standard
20:53:00 <esowiki> [[Talk:Suich]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63522&oldid=63500 * TuxCrafting * (+148) oops, bad wrapping behavior
20:53:57 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Amb * New user account
20:55:55 <esowiki> [[Talk:Suich]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63523&oldid=63522 * TuxCrafting * (-116) fix is trivial
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21:06:42 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63524&oldid=63461 * Amb * (+138)
21:09:54 <esowiki> [[Suich]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63525&oldid=63521 * Ais523 * (+3681) Turing-complete
21:10:19 <esowiki> [[Suich]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63526&oldid=63525 * Ais523 * (+23) category
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21:25:50 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63527&oldid=63099 * Amb * (+777) /* TeXnicard */
21:27:20 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63528&oldid=63527 * Amb * (-9) /* Thue */ remove a line I commented out
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21:32:17 <esowiki> [[Tip]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63529&oldid=56658 * Ais523 * (+1) /* Computational class */ fix broken wikimarkup
21:33:22 <esowiki> [[EsoInterpreters]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63530&oldid=62704 * Amb * (+13) /* Main table */ added Deadfish in Thue
21:38:13 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63531&oldid=63528 * Amb * (+1) /* Thue */ fuck
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22:20:45 <oerjan> archive binging schlock mercenary seems to suck time from other things like irc
22:21:21 * oerjan will skip logs except pings again
22:25:31 <oerjan> not following the wiki is also very peaceful.
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22:34:56 <shachaf> oerjan: logreading is just archive binging irc hth
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22:52:07 <esowiki> [[User:HereToAnnoy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63532&oldid=57631 * HereToAnnoy * (+90) Added contact page
22:52:36 <esowiki> [[User:HereToAnnoy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63533&oldid=63532 * HereToAnnoy * (-2) Fixed spacing
23:03:20 <int-e> oerjan: Once again, I'm not sorry.
23:34:52 <Sgeo__> How does Javascript count as a prototypal language if the "prototypes" are never put through the constructor like the rest of the objects constructed with a constructor are?
23:35:13 <Sgeo__> new Foo() can make a new Foo that inherits from Foo.prototype but Foo.prototypen wasn't initialized that way
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23:59:41 <int-e> Sgeo__: I thought the main feature of prototype based programming was delegation. (Cf. setPrototypeOf... which I believe is slow because in practice implementations will assume a class-like OO programming style.)
00:00:28 <Sgeo__> It's just weird because I thought a prototype would be like an example object, and it isn't.
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00:22:23 <int-e> Sgeo_: I agree that it's weird to focus on the delegates when calling JS prototype-based. Object.assign() is the function that actually clones objects...
00:25:08 <int-e> And I forgot how unusual the style of the ECMAscript specification is. (It's not bad! Just completely different from, say, the C standard.)
00:27:39 <int-e> Sgeo_: So... pure speculation: Originally, prototype-based programming was created around the idea of having prototypes that are being cloned. But this is inefficient; a clone will carry all the methods of the original. So in order to make it more efficient, delegation was introduced. And that is a really powerful mechanism, much more interesting than the original prototype idea. So the paradigm...
00:27:46 <int-e> ...shifted, but the original name was kept.
00:29:23 <Sgeo_> function Car(make) { this.make = make }; Car.prototype instanceof Car;
00:29:44 <int-e> Oh... completely different topic what's your favorite way to write Euclid's algorithm in C? There are some degrees of freedom. http://paste.debian.net/1087891/ is my favorite.
00:29:53 <Sgeo_> Was expecting that to give true. It's false
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00:31:11 <int-e> Yeah, the "prototype" field is a misnomer. It's just a delegate for each new instance.
00:31:37 <esowiki> [[W]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63534&oldid=58355 * Odog8 * (+193)
00:32:35 <int-e> (hmm, I wrote C, but the code I copied was JavaScript ;-) )
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00:36:55 <int-e> In particular, Foo instanceof Bar checks whether Bar is a function object ("callable") and looks up the prototype field of Bar...
00:37:40 <int-e> Sgeo__: so this kind of matches your expectations... it's the prototype field that really matters... but the fact is swept under the rug.
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00:52:32 <Sgeo__> Object.create(Car.prototype) instanceof Car;
00:53:44 <Sgeo__> A instanceof B looks at A's prototype chain excluding A itself?
00:54:59 <Sgeo__> https://www.ecma-international.org/ecma-262/9.0/index.html#sec-ordinaryhasinstance
01:04:26 <shachaf> Aren't objects and classes and instances and prototypes and so on kind of a scam?
01:16:01 <int-e> shachaf: could you please stop throwing out random claims like that
01:25:36 <int-e> I think you're systematically starting discussions with statements that are easily offensive to anybody who cares about the topic at hand. It seems to be effective, but it's not nice at all.
01:26:49 <int-e> And if you think about it, saying that something is scow, or a scam, is very shallow; it does not contribute to a discussion at all.
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02:38:25 <shachaf> Man, that's not how I mean it at all.
02:38:33 <shachaf> I'll have to think about what to do.
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04:22:23 <esowiki> [[Talk:Backshift]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63535&oldid=63509 * Salpynx * (-261) /* Modified version of the removed code from the main page */ accepting A's improvements to my implementation
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05:59:30 <esowiki> [[Talk:Keg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63536&oldid=63175 * JonoCode9374 * (+595) /* Upcoming Features in Keg+ */ new section
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08:58:07 <esowiki> [[Talk:Pointless]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63537&oldid=63093 * Traveller * (+183)
08:59:58 <esowiki> [[Pointless]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63538&oldid=63092 * Traveller * (+27)
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13:25:46 <esowiki> [[Backshift]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63539&oldid=63465 * Salpynx * (+1840) /* Examples */ 99 bottles, stretching things considerably, but at least it loops.
13:30:47 <esowiki> [[Talk:Backshift]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63540&oldid=63535 * Salpynx * (+49) /* Modified version of the removed code from the main page */ allow move_left to wrap, and radix greater than 36 for longer programs (unicode value hack)
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13:31:46 <esowiki> [[Backshift]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63541&oldid=63539 * Salpynx * (+0) /* 99 bottles of beer */ off-by-one error in description
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13:53:48 <esowiki> [[Backshift]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63542&oldid=63541 * A * (+17) /* 99 bottles of beer */ rectwrap
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15:53:45 <arseniiv> imagine there are only tuple constructors and match expressions (and something to make it TC)
15:55:37 <arseniiv> to make things less bearable, only (), id, (,) and (,,) (named 0, 1, 2, 3)
15:57:57 <arseniiv> hm no, not id but the genuine 1-tuple constructor; (x) ≢ x
15:58:16 <arseniiv> then it makes sense a bit to have it
16:03:42 <arseniiv> if x is matched constructor n, you can apply an i-tuple (full, bare constructors aren’t allowed as expressions) to x to extract its i-th component
16:06:47 <arseniiv> if the thing applied is to the right
16:07:33 <arseniiv> (x, y, z) () = x, (x, y, z) (…) = y, (x, y, z) (…, …′) = z
16:08:25 <int-e> you said "apply an i-tuple to x" rather than "apply x to an i-tuple", which I think you meant?
16:08:25 <arseniiv> I think I heard about a language where you could apply an index to an array
16:08:42 <int-e> "apply" is a bit weird.
16:10:05 <arseniiv> anyway it would be like 2xy0 = x, 2xy10 = y
16:10:34 <arseniiv> it needs something fancy for recursion
16:11:24 <arseniiv> and also something fancy for store… stacks and tapes are now officially boring
16:13:19 <int-e> alphabet soup is the best data store
16:17:40 <arseniiv> so we also will have a way to address relatively
16:19:51 <arseniiv> hm one can do something with chunks of code so if it tries to use a value at index x, it would be actually addressing (x)
16:46:02 <int-e> shachaf: you might enjoy Toonstruck... it's full of awful puns.
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16:46:56 <int-e> (gog has it for free today)
16:53:51 <arseniiv> hm guess I should in the end add a self-encoding (and write the source in it too) and eval (with context-deepening) and an unconditional rerun of what is at address () if there is something other than ()
16:54:51 <arseniiv> also 2 should be infix, 1 postfix and 3 prefix
16:59:31 <int-e> though shalt not parse?
17:00:02 <arseniiv> also maybe those dots instead of parentheses to group
17:00:43 <int-e> it's the principled solution to grouping subexpressions
17:01:12 <int-e> as in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principia_Mathematica
17:04:34 <arseniiv> thanks, I was just going to search that notation specifics
17:09:25 <arseniiv> hm better it’ll be a matching of mere constructor, without destructuring arguments into something
17:09:38 <arseniiv> or it would be a huge notational effort every time
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17:13:11 <b_jonas> https://esolangs.org/logs/2019-03-28.html#llb
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17:27:14 <arseniiv> b_jonas: yeah, I remember I talked about them and you showed me one of David Madore’s posts
17:53:21 <arseniiv> and an unconditional rerun of what is at address () if there is something other than () => no, I reconsider. Let there be that same eval, and if the user wants a rerun, let them write it themselves
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18:57:09 <arseniiv> hm I feel some satisfaction with this thing
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19:02:59 <arseniiv> if each parenthesis vanishes leaving a dot, is that enough to get unique reading?
19:08:58 <arseniiv> maybe I should take the outermost operation and recursively add dots to its operands and then add more dots to the operation than any operand now has
19:09:53 <arseniiv> also there should be a way to describe economy when the operation is left-/right-associative or when there is some presumed precedence between different operations
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19:16:53 <arseniiv> maybe if one first drops unnecessary parentheses and only 𝓉𝒽𝑒𝓃 dotifies the result being concerned only with parenthesized operands’ dots…
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19:26:40 <b_jonas> yay! I just ordered from amazon.com, it's like I'm a mercun
19:27:05 <b_jonas> also substituted an ô for an ő because amazon.com doesn't understand things on top of letters,
19:27:55 <b_jonas> and successfully found the option to pay in USD rather than let amazon.com rip me off with currency conversion by default like paypal does, because amazon.com doesn't hide that option nearly as well as paypal does
19:28:46 <b_jonas> well, actually it seems to understand one thing on top of letters, but not two things on top of the same letter
19:29:53 <b_jonas> that's better than the bbc
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19:44:25 <arseniiv> b_jonas: is double acute really two things?
19:45:08 <arseniiv> (or it displays incorrectly on my side and it’s not the one)
19:45:31 <b_jonas> arseniiv: a double acute is two acute accents next to each other. that's two things.
19:47:55 <kmc> I think as far as Unicode concerned it's one character / combiner
19:48:06 <kmc> i mean, is an umlaut also two things?
19:48:25 <kmc> I've never heard of ô as a substitute for ő
19:48:30 <kmc> but people do write ö
19:48:39 <kmc> do any languages have ő and ű besides hungarian?
19:48:56 <kmc> iirc ő is an o that's both an ó and an ö
19:49:05 <kmc> p. esoteric letter
19:50:08 <arseniiv> kmc: yeah, an interesting diacritic use
19:50:28 <b_jonas> kmc: ô was the common substitute when all you had was cp437; later õ became the more common substitute when all you had was iso8859-1 or cp1252 or cp850, and iso8859-1 and cp1252 has õ at the same encoding where iso8859-2 and cp1250 has ő so we got it all the time from incorrect encodings of fonts; but I still prefer ô
19:51:34 <b_jonas> kmc: the umlaut is a good argument of course, because I think amazon.com does understand ö
19:51:47 <kmc> b_jonas: ah, interesting
19:51:50 <kmc> character encodings are such a mess
19:51:52 <b_jonas> obviously the number of things on top of the letter isn't really what counts for them
19:52:20 <kmc> yeah who knows
19:52:54 <b_jonas> and of course ö became a common substitute when all we had was the 7-bit SMS encoding
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19:54:11 <b_jonas> anything really, SMS is just random, not really standardized
19:54:31 <arseniiv> a number theory question: if we have three functions: nullary a, unary b, binary c and ternary d, what polynomials could they be to minimize their count in writing not very large nonnegative integer values
19:54:50 <arseniiv> there are many simultaneous discussions here
19:55:09 <arseniiv> is that a kind of elaborated spam?
19:56:43 <andrew65> esolang idea: two programs that interact with each other
19:56:49 <andrew65> one's tape is another's source code
19:56:55 <andrew65> one's IP is another's tape head
19:57:12 <kmc> b_jonas: do you speak hungarian?
19:58:12 <b_jonas> kmc: more importantly, delivery persons here do, which is why I can use hungarian words with ő in the delivery instructions
19:59:33 <kmc> b_jonas: oh!
19:59:37 <kmc> wait do you live in hungary?
19:59:41 <kmc> i thought you lived in finland
19:59:45 <b_jonas> kmc: yes, I live in Hungary
19:59:47 <kmc> maybe that's just because you're on IRC
20:00:17 <b_jonas> but I think this channel has more people who live in Finland than people who live in Hungary
20:00:23 <b_jonas> so statistically you were right
20:00:34 <kmc> there are a lot of finns on irc for some reason
20:00:47 <kmc> the IRC encoding is based on 646-fi
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20:02:10 <b_jonas> kmc: yeah, freenode changed to that several years ago
20:02:26 <b_jonas> before that they used the one where [ and { were different characters in nicks and channel names
20:02:40 <b_jonas> I still have no idea what they did with nickserv registrations that suddenly started to clash
20:13:29 <fizzie> IRC's inventor is (now) a Googler, right?
20:13:38 <fizzie> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jarkko_Oikarinen "-- has been working for Google since 2011 --"
20:26:18 <HackEso> Google is where people are working on [NAME WITHHELD] and [REDACTED], without being evil at all.
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21:06:29 <andrew_> it's cool how one man created a language based entirely around string replacements
21:08:35 <oerjan> <andrew65> one's IP is another's tape head <-- i vaguely think there is one already
21:09:04 <oerjan> andrew_: tswett[m] made it, i proved it.
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21:09:26 <oerjan> well dependent on which language.
21:09:38 <oerjan> i guess thue might also fit the description.
21:10:43 <b_jonas> oerjan: which string replacement language is that?
21:10:51 <b_jonas> I don't know which one tswett made
21:11:32 <oerjan> oh and brian & chuck is the one i thought of for the first comment
21:11:54 <arseniiv> I can’t make myself to write a truth-machine for my new eso, it’s too hard. I don’t even want to write a code which tells if outer constructors of two terms are the same
21:12:56 <arseniiv> which is needed to test equality, which is needed to tell 0 from 1
21:13:19 <tswett[m]> Lemme see if I can send a message starting with /.
21:14:57 <b_jonas> /* you need a star or else it's division */
21:15:24 <tswett[m]> I can do two, I don't know how to do one.
21:16:11 <b_jonas> now start a message with \/ then
21:16:29 <arseniiv> if I can’t write in my eso, is it a sign it should be published? B)
21:16:57 <arseniiv> this line is less or equal than that one
21:16:59 <b_jonas> \/ one backslash and one slash
21:17:04 <pikhq_> Either a terrible or fantastic sign, and it's hard to say which without knowing specifics.
21:18:37 <arseniiv> tswett[m]: in your case, how did you do \/?
21:18:46 <b_jonas> ok, now put an unpaired \x01 at the start of your message
21:18:47 <tswett[m]> /// is the best esolang I'll ever create.
21:18:51 <tswett[m]> Two backslahes and a forward slash.
21:19:12 <arseniiv> yeah in my case it doesn’t work
21:19:33 <b_jonas> (you can't, because the C channel mode forbids it)
21:19:38 <arseniiv> my client is bad! very pessimistic and something something
21:20:43 <fizzie> /say \/ and /msg #esoteric \/ are other common workarounds.
21:21:29 <arseniiv> let’s return to what was discussed
21:21:46 <b_jonas> what was discussed? string-rewriting languages?
21:22:25 <arseniiv> or maybe specifically ///, IDK
21:24:14 <b_jonas> but what language was andrew_ thinking of?
21:24:41 <arseniiv> a random quote from wiki> Due to IRP's nature, any quine is potentially a severe DDOS worm.
21:25:30 <arseniiv> b_jonas: I bet something underspecified and mysteriously concise
21:53:25 <Cale> An activated Mutavault is a mutant ninja turtle.
22:10:18 <esowiki> [[User:Arseniiv/0123 (draft)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=63543 * Arseniiv * (+3881) Created page with "0123 is a foolish language, being so far in a draft state and primarily assembled at 2019-06-15, by [[User:Arseniiv]]. Hopefully its not a word for word copy of some other..."
22:12:50 <Cale> Not completely dead, but it's not doing as well as anyone would have hoped
22:14:16 <Cale> There are still people logging in and playing every day, but whatever they're doing as far as marketing the game hasn't really been working so well.
22:41:43 <b_jonas> Cale: it's also a Pirate Ship, but it's not a Hero or a Lord or an Anteater these days
22:43:52 <b_jonas> and as of recently, it's also an Army in itself
22:51:39 <b_jonas> it's also a Deserter because of a certain interesting old card, a Vehicle Pilot, a Carrier Processor. creature types are Weird.
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05:29:53 <imode> longshot, but are there any standard, known procedures for converting labeled graphs (you can just assume integer-labeled graphs, nodes + edges or either or) to unlabeled graphs?
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11:31:41 <b_jonas> yes! storm is finally coming
11:31:50 <b_jonas> will be here within an hour
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11:55:42 <esowiki> [[Suich]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63544&oldid=63526 * TuxCrafting * (+18) /* Commands */ prettier table
11:56:16 <esowiki> [[Virage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63545&oldid=63174 * TuxCrafting * (+18) /* Commands */ prettier table
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13:07:09 <int-e> . o O ( why isn't that the default? )
13:08:45 <b_jonas> int-e: it more or less requires clouds to cover the sun, which makes it harder for some crops such as cereals to grow, plus also all the water would be hard to evaporate or lead to rivers, it would erode the soil too much
13:10:57 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63546&oldid=63080 * Int-e * (-1292) drop "unclear" section (only the boilerplate was left)
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14:14:43 <esowiki> [[Usage:Looping counter]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=63547 * A * (+239) Created page with "[[Usage:Looping counter]] is an [[esoteric programming language]] based on looping counters. ==Syntax== A Usage:Looping counter program consists of registers. <pre> </pre> C..."
14:20:58 <esowiki> [[Usage:Looping counter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63548&oldid=63547 * A * (+912) Boring. I will make another language.
14:23:50 <esowiki> [[Usage:Looping counter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63549&oldid=63548 * A * (+281) /* Syntax */
14:27:00 <ski> rye requires clouds to cover the sun
14:27:55 <esowiki> [[Usage:Looping counter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63550&oldid=63549 * A * (+284)
14:28:00 <b_jonas> ok sorry, I'm a city person, all I know is that tree branches fall and the drains get clogged and road traffic gets harder
14:28:17 <b_jonas> I don't really know how plants work, and the houseplants in my care keep dying too quickly
14:29:17 <esowiki> [[Usage:Looping counter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63551&oldid=63550 * A * (+148) /* Bytecode */
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14:40:22 <ski> apparently, rye waits for a full moon in spring, then for a hot sunny day, then for a cloud to cover the sun during that day, then all the rye in a field releases their pollen all at the same time
14:41:55 * ski is also a city person
14:51:24 <esowiki> [[Usage:Looping counter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63552&oldid=63551 * A * (-125)
14:53:24 <b_jonas> and sure, we need some storms to clean up the smog too, but before that, we need lots of sunny days before to make the rye grow
14:53:41 <b_jonas> which is why storms aren't the default in summer
15:04:30 <ski> nice teleological argument
15:08:19 <int-e> The Earth is rotating because otherwise we wouldn't have day and night.
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16:08:26 <b_jonas> four simultaneous days? or just one day?
16:08:32 <HackEso> EARTH HAS 4 CORNER SIMULTANEOUS 4-DAY TIME CUBE IN ONLY 24 HOUR ROTATION. 4 CORNER DAYS, CUBES 4 QUAD EARTH. Bible A Lie & Word Is Lies. Navel Connects 4 Corner 4s. God Is Born Of A Mother - She Left Belly B. Signature. Your dirty lying teachers use only the midnight to midnight 1 day (ignoring 3 other days) Time to not foul (already wrong) bible time. Lie that corrupts earth you educated stupid fools.
16:08:34 <HackEso> Dr Gene Ray is the Greatest Philosopher, and is the Greatest Mathematician. Cubic Harmonics. Only Cubic Harmonics can save humanity. Cubic Harmonics will pacify all religions. 96-hour Cubic Day debunks 1-day unnatural god. 96-hour day willdisprove disunity god. Academians are teaching - pseudocience. Worshipping a Word God will destroy the USA.
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16:26:11 <imode> gotta love gene ray.
16:29:24 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> I don't really know how plants work, and the houseplants in my care keep dying too quickly => poor things :) (maybe you water them too much? It’s a common mistake, I had made it several times)
16:40:02 <imode> anybody have any resources on "translating" labeled graphs to unlabeled graphs while preserving the labels topologically?
16:40:52 <b_jonas> arseniiv: that in part, and also simply having the wrong sort of plants
16:41:02 <b_jonas> now I'm more in easy mode, having plants that tolerate much more
16:44:18 <arseniiv> myname’s advice is great, many herbs/grasses/how are they called, which are usable as food, grow nicely in the summer and maybe all year long if you’re in a sufficiently warm and sunny house
16:44:32 <b_jonas> drat, groundfloor neighbor is cooking again
16:44:42 <arseniiv> int-e: didn’t consider those at all :o
16:45:13 <arseniiv> sometimes I have issues with ventilation too
16:45:36 <arseniiv> right now someone is smoking somewhere and it goes to my nose in a discernible concentration
16:45:46 <arseniiv> and a minute later, it may be gone
16:46:07 <arseniiv> and maybe hthat person had already done their evil deed and left
16:47:42 <int-e> arseniiv: Re: 0123, can you clarify "Append *y to x; else if *x matches 3, do c."?
16:48:34 <arseniiv> though right now my windows are open and it’s a flat block, so it’s most likely through the open air
16:51:20 <arseniiv> int-e: yeah. If *x is 0, x1, x2y, we can add an element and get y1, x2y, 3xyz, and if *x is 3xyz, there’s no natural way, so we won’t change the value and do c to signal the user
16:53:23 <int-e> ah, viewing tuples as lists (rather than the other existing list: _ 2 _ 2 _ 2 _ ...)
17:00:29 <arseniiv> yeah, one needs this operation or something other to replace tuple’s elements. This one seems economical enough
17:01:03 <arseniiv> I could even add equality testing as a primitive, but… IDK
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17:06:30 <esowiki> [[User:Arseniiv/0123 (draft)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63553&oldid=63543 * Arseniiv * (+287) /* Operations and self-encoding */ clarifying append op
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19:48:45 <ski> arseniiv : i remember that my astronomy teacher thought that they shouldn't be so ungrateful to her
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19:52:41 <arseniiv> is this about plants? :D I don’t seem to understand which topic is it about
19:52:59 <andrew_> astronomy is about planEts
19:53:09 <ski> yes, plants
19:54:25 <ski> (i believe "ungrateful creeps" (translated) was the wording she used)
19:55:24 <arseniiv> when my cat is ungrateful, I can theorize about what did she found inappropriate, but if that were plants, I would have no idea, they are too different from us
19:55:41 <ski> she also invented some new words, when teaching astronomy, like "globul"
19:55:58 <ski> (which was fun)
19:56:39 <ski> (and we even got a guest lecture by someone interested in archeo-astronomy)
19:58:39 <b_jonas> ski: I don't understand the popular explanations about that. are we simultaneously supposed to believe that the native cultures in america had very advanced astronomy and left lots of tables with astronomical calculation, and that they could be bamboozled because a white conqueror knew about an eclipse that the americans couldn't predict
19:59:04 <ski> (he was a university teacher. he had a theory that a particular stone ship here wasn't composed our of circle arcs, or an ellipse, but rather two parabola arcs)
20:00:04 <ski> (iirc, he talked about possibly locating remains in the earth of the focal points of the parabola, used to construct them)
20:00:45 <ski> b_jonas : i dunno about that
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20:18:53 <arseniiv> ah I thoight it means something about astronomy in Ancient Greece and arabic one too
20:19:44 <arseniiv> like calculations of the radius of the Earth or the distance to the Sun or the Moon
20:20:28 <arseniiv> and various ephemerides calculations and how tables were constructed and what math advances followed
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01:26:12 <esowiki> [[Virage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63554&oldid=63545 * Salpynx * (+359) /* Examples */ Truth-machine
01:44:46 <esowiki> [[Virage]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63555&oldid=63554 * Salpynx * (-11) /* Truth-machine */
02:08:57 <zzo38> "it's also a Deserter because of a certain interesting old card, a Vehicle Pilot, a Carrier Processor. creature types are Weird." but, "Vehicle" is not a creature type; it is a subtype for artifacts.
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02:41:31 <imode> so I have an idea for a language that does pattern -> replacement rewrites over undirected, unlabeled graphs. an interesting thought popped into my head: what if you could encode labeled, directed graphs on top of unlabeled, undirected graphs.
02:42:19 <imode> was wondering if anybody knew anything about that encoding process if it's even been done before.
02:43:02 <zzo38> I don't know about that.
02:43:17 <zzo38> If someone know, I hope to learn too.
02:44:07 <imode> my focus right now is on the transition from labeled -> unlabeled.
02:44:49 <imode> my current thought is you have to encode the label topologically, so if you have a finite set of labels, you could number them and encode each one as the complete graph K(N+3).
02:45:08 <imode> and then just have the first specified vertex be the "anchor" to connect to other labeled nodes.
02:45:29 <imode> but this'd get very very messy because those aren't uniquely identifiable unless you also have a similar encoding for edges.
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02:57:05 <salpynx> imode: I wonder if you could label vertices with unique unlabelled graph tags, and double all edges, so if you were on a vertex with two edges you are on an edge, if there are more than two, a vertex with a label
02:58:08 <salpynx> A-B => <labelA>-A-*-B-<labelB>
02:58:35 <imode> something like that, yeah. you'd need a way of generating some unique "tag" from a given label, though.
02:58:54 <imode> does that also assume you can have multiple edges between two nodes?
02:59:38 <salpynx> you might need a label-tag tag :) to id where the label is attached
02:59:54 <imode> mind-bending. :confusion:
03:00:11 <imode> there was this article series, tales from the tinkerpop, that covered this in a cheeky way, lemme find it...
03:00:20 <imode> https://www.datastax.com/dev/blog/tales-from-the-tinkerpop
03:00:42 <int-e> imode: perhaps something like https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/ggg.png (a sketch, I have not yet tried to poke holes into it... but the idea is that this encodes a DAG with A labeld with 2, B labeled with 3, and an edge A -> B)?
03:01:29 <imode> that's exactly what I had in mind.
03:02:57 <imode> there was also a neat stackexchange answer on converting directed edges to undirected edges, and the solution looked really slick and kinda funny.
03:03:25 <imode> https://i.stack.imgur.com/OxaLX.png
03:03:33 <imode> and the original answer: https://cs.stackexchange.com/questions/19744/converting-a-digraph-to-an-undirected-graph-in-a-reversible-way
03:06:14 <int-e> I've tweaked the image slightly to be more suggestive ;-)
03:07:00 <imode> diagrammatic reasoning, eat your heart out. XD
03:07:20 <imode> "you want an arrow semantically? here you go."
03:09:39 <imode> the question I have is how does this hold up for larger, more complex graphs.
03:10:49 <imode> A -> B, B -> C, C -> A for example. if I wanted to match on that "shape" regardless of pattern, I could potentially end up matching one of the labels unless I used an explicit edge structure.
03:11:42 <imode> how'd you make that diagram btw, int-e?
03:12:00 <salpynx> My idea of a "labelled" unlabled square: A-*-B-*-C-*-D-*-A , where * is an edge mid-vertex, and A has a complete triangle graph attached, B a comple square, C a complete petagon, and D a complete hexagonal graph attached
03:12:48 <int-e> I think it works just like that (mainly because all original edges are substuted by something of length 3, so the K_3 and K_4 marking the label subgraph are recognizable. But maybe the label nodes should have another appendix so that the path from the K_3 to the K_4 can be recognized
03:13:48 <imode> for example, if I want to match on any edges that're incoming to B, I'd just match on `-> B`, and that'd get translated down to that larger undirected and unlabeled pattern.
03:14:27 <salpynx> int-e's way looks like it will use a lot less edges than mine, although complete-graph tags are are probably not strictly necessary, they are just easy to ensure they are unique and can't be confused for edges
03:14:47 <imode> another way would be to use loops or something equivalent.
03:14:58 <imode> int-e: what'cha mean by appendix?
03:15:13 <imode> this has really sparked my curiosity.
03:15:43 <int-e> imode: I've changed the picture once more
03:16:04 <imode> it really looks like a "backbone" now.
03:17:25 <int-e> it's a centipede of course
03:18:10 <imode> are you encoding path length in this?
03:18:25 <imode> is that what I'm seeing? :o
03:18:42 <imode> why the 4, 5, 6 then?
03:19:08 <int-e> well I was imagining a larger graph with 7 labels
03:19:23 <imode> ahhhh okay, that makes sense.
03:19:23 <int-e> just a random numbers
03:20:16 <int-e> so... this should work if the original graph has no loops
03:20:30 <int-e> loops are problematic because the edge would be a K_3 then
03:20:49 <int-e> (well, two K_3's sharing an edge)
03:20:59 <imode> yeah. and any arrangement of labeled nodes in a complete graph with undirected edges would technically form a "label" in the middle.
03:21:12 <imode> so you'd have to have edge markers for both directed and undirected edges.
03:21:47 <int-e> and that detail should be fixable without fundamentally changing the construction
03:22:17 <imode> I dig it. this has given me motivation to start implementing the aforementioned language. :)
03:23:31 <imode> it'd be neat to shove a complex graph from something like RDF through this translator and dump it into graphviz.
03:24:05 <int-e> ... I would be very much surprised if the result was recognizable
03:24:28 <imode> by nothing other than a machine. :P
03:24:30 <int-e> (IME graphviz needs a lot of prodding for all but the simplest of graphs)
03:24:51 <imode> yeah... it doesn't do fitting and placement well.
03:33:36 <int-e> salpynx: I do wonder whether people have thought about how to do this optimally
03:33:48 <salpynx> imode: I assume you know about https://esolangs.org/wiki/Kolmogorov_machine ? I've been trying to collate resources and existing graph rewriting languages there
03:36:50 <salpynx> I came up with a numbering system for eodermdrome that was less wasteful than K(n+3), but it was also trying to fit into eodermdrome's 26 symbol limit. I'd have to dig out the notes as I never quite finished that code
03:38:22 <int-e> imode: btw I have thought about such things before... I wanted to use graph isomorphism tools (like nauty or Traces) for isomorphisms of more structured things (term rewrite systems, specifically). Then I learned that those tools actually support labeled graphs...
03:39:01 <imode> salpynx: I've gone down that road before, I could barely find any info on them. :\
03:39:38 <imode> int-e: hah. yak shaving at its finest. ;)
03:42:17 <int-e> imode: and this is quite inherently so; one key feature of those tools is that they partition the sets of vertices if they've found a way to discriminate between them (e.g., nodes of degree 3 never map to nodes of degree 4). Labels are encoded just by providing an initial partition...
03:42:50 <imode> interesting, nauty and Traces...
03:45:06 <imode> that's kind of the idea we've been toying with, isn't it? only the partitions are easier because you're slicing away complete graphs which are pretty self-contained.
03:49:30 <salpynx> imode: I'm interested in what you come up with for a new graph rewriting language, good luck, and feel free to update here. I'm definitely up for testing and trying to use it for something.
03:51:10 <imode> salpynx: thanks! it's actually a pretty trivial language... just a list of edges (A - B) on the left-hand side of a -> to match a bunch of nodes, and a list of edges on the right-hand side that denote a replacement pattern.
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03:51:30 <imode> only supports undirected, unlabeled graphs. debating on allowing loops.
03:51:38 <ais523> salpynx: you misunderstand how eodermdrome works, it doesn't have a symbol limit, it doesn't have symbols at all
03:52:03 <ais523> the symbols are only used to describe the shape of the graph, and not stored in the graph
03:52:05 <int-e> imode: two more: saucy and bliss. the "au" was for automorphisms?
03:52:21 <ais523> so, e.g., a Y shape can be described as abcbd, but you can later match that same shape as efgfh
03:52:24 <int-e> imode: two more graph isomorphism programs, that is
03:52:25 <imode> int-e: nice, I have some research to do. :)
03:53:09 <ais523> if you want a symbol-equivalent, and most programs do, you do it with weirdly-shaped bits of graph that don't appear elsewhere
03:53:16 <int-e> imode: IIRC traces is the newest and overall the one with the best performance
03:53:51 <imode> interesting, I wonder what it uses for representing graphs internally.
03:56:33 <salpynx> ais523: I meant there is a 26 symbol limit in describing a graph shape, so whatever weirdly-shaped graph you want to refer to can only have 26 nodes max
03:58:06 <salpynx> so I was trying to come up with a number system of <26 node graph shapes
04:00:01 <salpynx> was how I remember them going
04:00:05 <int-e> imode: Hmm, that triggered a vague memory; IIRC, the "s" is "saucy" is for "sparse", because originally "nauty" used a dense representation (adjacency matrix).
04:01:04 <int-e> imode: but I believe there's nothing fancy going on there; it's either adjacency lists or adjacency matrices.
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04:01:33 <ais523> there is, I believe, a limit to the number of distinct Eodermdrome programs that can be written
04:02:02 <ais523> meaning that it's ℒ-complete rather than Turing-complete in the traditional sense
04:02:16 <ais523> @djinn ((a -> b) -> a) -> a
04:02:47 <ais523> @djinn (a -> (b -> c)) -> (b -> (a -> c))
04:03:27 <ais523> @djinn a -> b -> (a -> a -> b)
04:03:36 <ais523> err, that's not what I meant for that last one
04:03:49 <ais523> @djinn a -> ((a -> a -> b) -> b) -> b
04:04:10 <ais523> @djinn a -> (a -> a -> b) -> b
04:04:42 <ais523> so Haskell has exchange, weakening, and contraction, but not the law of the excluded middle
04:05:13 <salpynx> ais523: the most complex eodermdrome progam I have written to a state that (mostly) works is a increment / decrement / output interpreter for the joke language +-= , it has an accumulator and outputs the decimal value when instructed to
04:05:52 <ais523> hmm, you're most of the way to a Deadfish interp there, aren't you?
04:06:09 <ais523> does it store the value internally in decimal or in unary?
04:06:17 <salpynx> https://github.com/hornc/eodermdrome-examples/tree/master/%2B-%3D
04:07:03 <salpynx> unary for each decimal placeholder
04:08:03 <ais523> ah right, so unary-coded-decimal with a fixed number of digits
04:09:07 <salpynx> yes, I haven't finished extending it to 4 digits, but I think I've shown the techinque which can be extended to more and more digits
04:10:12 <ais523> I guess an arbitrarily-many-digits counter would look something like a tape machine
04:10:48 <salpynx> I have not spent time thinking how to implement squaring to bring it to Deadfish, but implementing an accumulator was a first step in making a simple game to track a score or something
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04:14:38 <salpynx> Thinking about graph-rewriting languages in terms of string-rewriting (Thue or ///) gets things done, but I'd love to figure out a way of being less 1D with them. That would be like 2d string rewrting
04:15:14 <ais523> fwiw, there's a gap in the market for a good 2D string rewriting esolang
04:15:31 <ais523> I'm tempted to add a few 2D primitives to Precongition, but I think I should probably implement the 1D version first :-D
04:17:10 <salpynx> I have not looked at Precognition (yet!)
04:18:01 <int-e> . o O ( But you already know what it is? )
04:20:37 <salpynx> reminds me that I recently had the idea of a regex version of Slashes, to be called 'Rashers': 🥓foo(.*)🥓$1bar🥓 , but REGEXY seems to already provide that
04:28:06 <salpynx> seriously? MS uses back-rashers while everyone uses forward-rashers? https://emojipedia.org/bacon/
04:33:12 <ais523> salpynx: IIRC the baguette emoji also goes in the same direction as the platform's directory separator
04:33:23 <kmc> ais523: ...
04:34:51 <ais523> assuming no standard for emoji direction, something like this was likely to happen by chance, surely?
04:35:09 <ais523> although once it was noticed, ideally people would keep to the same property intentionally
04:36:01 <salpynx> wow, it does look like its deliberate, they all follow the dir separator direction
04:39:43 <ais523> btw, I'm very happy that pretty much all the Eodermdrome programs I've seen go to some effort to make their graph definitions meaningful or at least pronounceable
04:40:26 <ais523> the comment syntax was designed to try to make that possible
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04:49:47 <salpynx> I had fun doing the eodermdrome truth machine, although it probably gives a very misleading idea of the syntax. I had to modify the interpreters to ignore punctuation as in the spec
04:50:22 <imode> back. now to read back!
04:50:34 <ais523> at least that bit of the spec did get implemented eventually
04:51:04 <ais523> it'd be a shame if it ended up like Underload (where there was a bit of the spec that nobody ever implemented, despite there being a large number of implementations written, and nowadays it isn't treated as part of the language)
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08:49:44 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63556&oldid=63464 * Salpynx * (+13) /* Non-alphabetic */ add
08:50:51 <HackEso> U+0642 ARABIC LETTER QAF \ UTF-8: d9 82 UTF-16BE: 0642 Decimal: ق \ ق \ Category: Lo (Letter, Other) \ Bidi: AL (Right-to-Left Arabic)
08:51:27 <HackEso> U+042E CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER YU \ UTF-8: d0 ae UTF-16BE: 042e Decimal: Ю \ Ю (ю) \ Lowercase: U+044E \ Category: Lu (Letter, Uppercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right)
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09:05:30 <wob_jonas> ais523: yeah, it's a pity especially as Underload is so small
09:05:46 <wob_jonas> zzo38: yes, sorry, the Vehicle is my mistake.
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09:11:13 <wob_jonas> Question. Suppose I have a C macro that in one implementation, evaluates some of its arguments multiple times. In another implementation, this isn't necessary. You could consider putc in ancient compilers as an example.
09:12:00 <wob_jonas> In the latter kind of interpreter, can it make sense to make the macro evaluate the argument twice just so that we can more easily catch nonportable code that assumes that the argument would be evaluated only once?
09:12:21 <wob_jonas> I'm not asking this for putc, but for a library API I'm going to define.
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09:24:15 <wob_jonas> And I do understand that the putc example is a bit of a stretch, because not many people will write code like { int i = 0; while (i < nfiles) putc(c, file[i++]); }
09:28:21 <fizzie> No, but `while (*src != 'x') putc(*src++, file);` is kind of plausible.
09:29:15 <fizzie> (I don't have an opinion on evaluate-twice-just-to-catch-bugs. It would be nice if it could be "warn on expressions with side effects", but that's not really feasible.)
09:29:20 <wob_jonas> fizzie: sure, but it's the file handle argument that can be evaluated more than once
09:30:00 <fizzie> Oh, apparently. I thought it was just any argument.
09:30:27 <wob_jonas> that depends on which macro obviously
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12:47:23 <wob_jonas> has someone meddled with the fundamental constants of the universe again some time within the last two months? or perhaps with the isotope ratios of the Earth's water supply? because it seems like the microwave oven is working somewhat faster than it used to
12:48:07 <wob_jonas> it used to take 140 seconds to heat up my soup, now it takes only 120 seconsd
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13:02:25 <int-e> mmm is it less soup?
13:02:47 <wob_jonas> int-e: dunno. it could be that the temperature before heating is higher, since it's now summer.
13:03:07 <int-e> that also makes sense, if it doesn't come from a fridge.
13:03:10 <wob_jonas> or that I wait less between the microwave finishing heating and checking the temperature
13:03:46 <int-e> anyway in answer to your question... I seriously doubt it
13:04:28 <int-e> we'd have seen more infrastructure failures at the very least... but I guess chemistry would be different as well, including biochemsitry, so we'd all be dead by now.
13:05:14 <int-e> . o O ( that would be some hard-core evolutionary pressure though. )
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13:20:18 <int-e> Is anyone adding magnetic field sensors to LCD and recreating the psychedelic color effects that CRTs had? Kids are missing out on so much these days...
13:52:00 <wob_jonas> int-e: we have a museum here that has a CRT exhibited with a strong magnet next to it specifically for kids to try that
13:52:08 <wob_jonas> at least it had one back when CRTs were normal
13:52:17 <wob_jonas> I haven't been there in a while so I don't know if they still have it
13:52:52 <wob_jonas> magnetic field sensors would be tricky because you'd need several
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14:36:17 <arseniiv> int-e: once I overdone that and the demagnetizing system didn’t overcame that fully in a single run and I was horrified
14:36:42 <arseniiv> then a couple more offs and ons made everything normal
14:37:37 <wob_jonas> int-e: the one exhibited in the museum had a warning not to try that at home, claiming that the particular television that they have exhibited there is more resistant to that sort of abuse than normal home televisions
14:38:01 <arseniiv> also when I played this way I was concerned that I could be irradiated with electrons
14:38:27 <wob_jonas> also I only recently understood how the magic color filter of CRTs actually works, because no book actually explains that, and it seems a priori impossible
14:40:07 <wob_jonas> the trick is that both the position and the direction of the electron beam can vary, the different colored beams have different points of origin, and the color mask at the screen has long thin parallel holes such that rays in some direction can pass through but in other directions can't, so eg. only rays from the bottom source can pass through to w
14:40:07 <wob_jonas> here the screen is painted with red glowy material
14:41:16 <wob_jonas> this wasn't obvious to me because cameras and color TFT displays don't need such magic, they just have individual pixels right behind colored windows
14:41:36 <wob_jonas> the pixels being a light sensor in cameras or an LCD segment in a TFT display
14:42:10 <arseniiv> yeah, I’ve read about that thing in a book on electronics and DIY radiothings, though it should seem like magic anyway, the accuracy of things’ placement and all
14:42:22 <wob_jonas> the books only told about the tiny holes and three different colors of glowy material in the CRT screen, but not that they were long holes to filter by direction of the ray
14:43:23 <wob_jonas> well, some of it is still magic of course, like how the three beams can hit close to the same place of the monitor accurately enough, plus the part that decodes the luma and chroma signals, including the delay line
14:43:49 <int-e> wob_jonas: I knew about the three rays.
14:44:07 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Palaiologos * New user account
14:44:47 <arseniiv> don’t remember what was exactly in that book, but I decided then that it filters what could get to where. Though I don’t seem to remember that the holes are long
14:45:06 <wob_jonas> as for accuracy, given that the whole thing is inside a huge glass jar that is entirely closed airtight, yes, that is also impossible in a ship-in-a-bottle way
14:45:22 <int-e> (Why else would you need a mask in front? B&W TV's don't have that. But don't ask me where I learned that... maybe that russian book about modern computer hardware from the 80s?)
14:46:29 <wob_jonas> int-e: well the books made it sound like the mask is thin, and the ray is somehow synchronized with the mask so it knows when it hits which color, like hitting the red hole then the green hole alternatingly
14:46:31 <int-e> wob_jonas: hmm maybe there's more to that trick than I thought.
14:46:47 <wob_jonas> and that would make more sense to me a priori, only
14:47:14 <wob_jonas> you can tell that's not how it works because color CRT computer monitors have an adjustment knob to fine tune the horizontal position and size of the image,
14:47:24 <int-e> I thought the mask was thin but at a certain distance from the display surface. But maybe that doesn't actually work.
14:47:39 <wob_jonas> and it can work in different resolutions that aren't just multiples of a base resolution (though it certainly doubles scan lines in low res modes too)
14:47:51 <wob_jonas> int-e: yes, that's probably what happens
14:47:52 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63557&oldid=63524 * Palaiologos * (+312)
14:48:01 <wob_jonas> the point is that it cares about the direction of the ray
14:48:02 <arseniiv> though I thought not so far, maybe millimeters away
14:48:27 <esowiki> [[Seed]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63558&oldid=50067 * Palaiologos * (-217) Seed is turing complete.
14:48:39 <wob_jonas> and yes, also the reaction to magnets wouldn't make sense that way
14:48:53 <wob_jonas> mind you, the reaction to magnets still doesn't make sense this way either
14:49:14 <int-e> it makes even more sense if you realize that switching these rays on and off quickly is a huge challenge, as is focusing them tightly... which is why CRT monitors were usually quite blurry.
14:49:26 <arseniiv> I haven’t really thought much about what one can deduce by that magnetic experiment
14:49:55 <wob_jonas> int-e: right... though I'm not so sold, so by that time they weren't too blurry, they had a decent image
14:50:03 <int-e> wob_jonas: the magnets bend the rays
14:50:41 <arseniiv> also I think they magnetize some parts of the screen
14:50:59 <int-e> (those electrons are not all that fast... I wonder how fast they actually are...
14:51:00 <wob_jonas> int-e: most of the blurryness and errors actually came from the VGA cable by then, not the monitor itself
14:51:08 <wob_jonas> and even that is much better than composite signal
14:51:34 <arseniiv> I wonder, can one do quantum-mechanical experiments on a CRT or oscilloscope?..
14:52:05 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: sure, you do the experiment and have the computer display the result on the CRT
14:52:11 <arseniiv> they say electrons are a hard material to make even the double-slit experiment
14:52:11 <int-e> ("not all that fast" will still be close to the speed of light because elctrons are so ridiculously light)
14:52:46 <arseniiv> <wob_jonas> arseniiv: sure, you do the experiment and have the computer display the result on the CRT => (rofl)
14:53:19 <int-e> arseniiv: I imagine that the main difficulty is that you need a near vacuum.
14:53:27 <wob_jonas> what, did you think computers with CRT were only for video games, and scientist had to use hardcopy terminals?
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14:54:00 <arseniiv> hm had someone made a muon CRT, such a useless thing
14:55:00 <wob_jonas> also, I'm starting to experiment with Consumer society, made a dumb proof of concept interpreter, tried to name a hello world file, and now trying to figure out what file extension I should use for Consumer society files, since ".cs" is used for csharp source files
14:55:39 <int-e> Hah, how not to explain stuff: "A black-and-white TV has a single electron gun, while a color TV needs three guns because each pixel on the screen is made of a red, a green and a blue dot."
14:56:43 <int-e> . o O ( let's shoot 150 red electrons, 120 blue electrons and 30 green ones. )
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14:59:20 <arseniiv> we should thank heavens those aren’t proton guns, as the rays could easily cross each other somewhere near the mask
15:00:14 <arseniiv> though in that case CRT-bearing machines would be the happy ones having not a single ghost in them
15:01:00 <arseniiv> or at least not having them in a CRT part, specifically. But that ensures almost no ghosts sufficiently near CRT too
15:01:33 <arseniiv> oh there is a shower outside, suddenly
15:02:19 <arseniiv> and I have no proton CRT to fend away possible ghosts
15:05:09 <wob_jonas> Now I have to write some basic arithmetic, such as addition and less-than comparison
15:09:47 <esowiki> [[User:Palaiologos]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=63559 * Palaiologos * (+816) Created page with "Hello! I'm creator of various to brainfuck compilers and esoteric language theoretican. My work includes: * Izmit compiler series. Izmit 1 and Izmit 2 were partially lost whe..."
15:09:56 <esowiki> [[User:Palaiologos]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63560&oldid=63559 * Palaiologos * (-4)
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16:29:33 <zzo38> I played GURPS game recently; this time my character went back to his home and then four weeks later something else happen so we have to go somewhere else, again.
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17:37:18 <HackEso> olist 1167: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
17:43:19 <arseniiv> I am so into them when they are freshly-cooked and present
17:43:44 <arseniiv> this is a sin, though I’m not religious at all
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17:59:55 <ski> why's it bad ?
18:10:48 <arseniiv> also it’s said that something in freshly-fried dough irritates stomach
18:11:18 <arseniiv> I hope nothing will occur, though
18:12:00 <arseniiv> I have eaten only a part of them and will hold myself in check
18:15:05 <ski> perhaps you can eat only a part of all of them
18:15:52 <ski> hm, i wonder whether one can bake doughnuts in the oven
18:16:47 <ski> or, one could try putting them in boiling soup
18:17:51 <arseniiv> it would be a soup with these things I don’t know the name of
18:18:25 <ski> now i want to make a soup. it's your fault ;)
18:18:37 <arseniiv> a soup is at least less sinuous
18:18:55 <ski> @wn sinuous
18:18:56 <lambdabot> *** "sinuous" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
18:18:56 <lambdabot> adj 1: curved or curving in and out; "wiggly lines" [syn:
18:19:26 <ski> all of those are sins, you know
18:19:52 <arseniiv> ski: ah so I’ll will use any of them next time
18:20:26 <arseniiv> s/a borrowing/a recent borrowing
18:20:42 <ski> s/borrowing/loan word/ ?
18:21:18 <arseniiv> though the dictionary says this goes too
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18:23:50 * ski . o O ( "On 19 October 2016, relics of Seraphim were launched into space aboard the Soyuz MS-02." )
18:33:02 <b_jonas> which Seraphim? Seraphim a christian saint, or Seraphim a previous spacecraft?
18:33:37 <b_jonas> there was no Seraphim spacecraft
18:33:42 <b_jonas> you must mean a saint then
18:39:13 <ski> Серафим Саровский, yes
18:47:49 <b_jonas> I don't know why I thought it was a spacecraft. Soviet spacecrafts actually had simple names like "peace" and stuff. Maybe because of the fictional space station "Ark Angel" in the Anthony Horowitz book.
18:49:15 <b_jonas> It's the American ones that had fancy names like that.
18:54:00 <arseniiv> someone needs to name their one Hypothenuse
18:56:41 <b_jonas> someone needs to name their son Pedrillo
19:02:00 * ski . o O ( "Hypo the muse" )
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20:22:56 <esowiki> [[User:Cortex]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63561&oldid=62387 * Cortex * (+31)
20:23:11 <esowiki> [[User:Cortex]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63562&oldid=63561 * Cortex * (+2)
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21:22:20 <b_jonas> `? people who taneb is not
21:22:21 <HackEso> elliott, a rabbi, Mark Zuckerberg, James Bond. Pending approval: Shigeru Miyamoto.
21:22:30 <b_jonas> ^ Is that still pending approval? Taneb: have you rejected that yet?
21:28:39 <HackEso> Any regular who gives the slightest Rogue One spoiler shall be hunted down in real life and have their intestines removed through their eye sockets. Members would not be exempt if they existed, which they don't.
21:29:18 <HackEso> 9994:2016-12-17 <hppavilion[1̈]> le/rn Rogue One//Any regular who gives the slightest Rogue One spoiler shall be hunted down in real life and have their intestines removed through their eye sockets. Members would not be exempt if they existed, which they don\'t.
21:33:35 <b_jonas> `? people who taneb is not
21:33:36 <HackEso> elliott, a rabbi, Mark Zuckerberg, James Bond. Pending approval: Shigeru Miyamoto.
21:33:37 <HackEso> 993) <Taneb> I've also pretended to be Queen Elizabeth the first, but that was a desperate plea for attention
21:34:42 <b_jonas> should I edit the entry to say he's also not Queen Elizabeth the first?
21:47:00 <esowiki> [[User:Gamer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63563&oldid=60500 * Gamer * (-141)
21:47:30 <esowiki> [[User:Gamer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63564&oldid=63563 * Gamer * (+17)
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21:56:15 <b_jonas> ``` perl -pi -e's/Bond\K/, Queen Elizabeth the first/' wisdom/p*aneb*
21:56:22 <b_jonas> `? people who taneb is not
21:56:23 <HackEso> elliott, a rabbi, Mark Zuckerberg, James Bond, Queen Elizabeth the first. Pending approval: Shigeru Miyamoto.
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22:02:06 <int-e> `hwrl people who taneb is not
22:02:09 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/log/tip/wisdom/people%20who%20taneb%20is%20not
22:03:25 <int-e> `? _͙̣̿̊ͣ̉ͣͪ͒̓̐͊̏ͫ̓̚̚�͎͎͙̪̪̝̖͉̟̭̻̥̫̗̱̗͍̳̦̮̟̲̥͔҉̕͜͠͠҉̡̧̛͞
22:03:26 <HackEso> _͙̣̿̊ͣ̉ͣͪ͒̓̐͊̏ͫ̓̚̚�͎͎͙̪̪̝̖͉̟̭̻̥̫̗̱̗͍̳̦̮̟̲̥͔҉̕͜͠͠҉̡̧̛͞ ? ¯\(°_o)/¯
22:06:12 <int-e> this is a saddening blog post: https://community.idera.com/developer-tools/b/blog/posts/multicast-events-using-generics
22:06:36 <int-e> it's all going smoothly... and then there's the implementation of InternalAdd & co.
22:07:39 <int-e> (Maybe Delphi should have an unsafeCoerce to avoid dropping down to the assembly level for this. This was 2008 though; I wonder whether things have changed in the meantime.)
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22:08:53 <ais523> N2263 is fascinating: http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n2263.htm (it's a proposal for actually sorting out the rules in C for what you can and can't do with pointer values)
22:09:01 <HackEso> ais523: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
22:13:40 <int-e> Hmmm "if and only if".
22:14:44 <int-e> ("if and only if" does not work well with side conditions. I'm looking at the proposal for §6.5.9#6)
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23:21:00 <imode> that graph manipulation language that was mentioned yesterday has morphed into visual and textual forms. :)
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23:43:32 <arseniiv> BTW I was thinking about that chemical language idea and it occurred to me that it’s reasonable to add an ambient temperature which can be changed in reactions, slowly goes to 0 otherwise, and influences stability of different bonds (so that some will simply break if the temperature is high enough)
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02:16:28 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Anthonykozar * New user account
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08:22:08 <Taneb> @ask b_jonas Is there any particular reason I'm not Shigeru Miyamoto?
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08:30:42 <shachaf> Taneb: Did you make Mario?
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08:46:39 <Taneb> Not so far but who knows
08:47:14 <myname> well, you could be a super mario maker
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09:18:50 <wob_jonas> Taneb: I don't think there's any particular reason, which is why you should just reject that entry so we can delete it from the wisdom
09:18:58 <HackEso> elliott, a rabbi, Mark Zuckerberg, James Bond, Queen Elizabeth the first. Pending approval: Shigeru Miyamoto.
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09:26:02 <shachaf> You have a good hi-compatible nick.
09:39:33 <HackEso> ioccclist is update notification for when a new year of the International Obfuscated C Code Contest is announced, or the winners for a year is announced, or the source codes of winners are released. http://www.ioccc.org/#news
09:39:42 <wob_jonas> IOCCC webpage now says "Due to some delays, we now plan to publish source and annotations in early July 2019."
09:40:43 -!- wob_jonas has set topic: IOCCC winners are announced; source code release planned 2019-07 | Welcome to the international center for esoteric programming language design, development, and deployment! | https://esolangs.org | logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
09:42:03 <int-e> Due to some delays, we now plan to [do thing] later.
09:43:09 <shachaf> Secure multiparty computation is p. neat, huh?
09:43:17 <shachaf> I should learn how it all works.
09:44:57 <int-e> IRC is an excellent place to start.
09:45:51 <HackEso> IRC is short for "Internet Relay Chat". It is named so because all the servers are constructed from relays.
10:12:28 <fizzie> There was a tautological announcement on the train the other day, can't remember what it was though.
12:13:34 <esowiki> [[TISC]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=63565 * A * (+266) Created page with "[[TISC]] (i.e. Two Instruction Set Computer) is a computer architecture that provides 2 instructions (but only one should appear in a practical source code). Category:Langua..."
12:20:05 <esowiki> [[TISC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63566&oldid=63565 * A * (+993)
12:21:39 <esowiki> [[TISC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63567&oldid=63566 * A * (+117)
12:24:56 <esowiki> [[TISC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63568&oldid=63567 * A * (+315)
12:25:59 <esowiki> [[TISC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63569&oldid=63568 * A * (+1) /* Syntax */
12:29:43 <esowiki> [[TISC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63570&oldid=63569 * A * (+136) /* Truth-machine */
12:30:25 <esowiki> [[TISC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63571&oldid=63570 * A * (+12) /* Truth-machine */
12:31:14 <esowiki> [[TISC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63572&oldid=63571 * A * (-10) /* Truth-machine */
12:31:46 <esowiki> [[TISC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63573&oldid=63572 * A * (+69) /* Syntax */
12:32:06 <esowiki> [[TISC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63574&oldid=63573 * A * (-44) /* Cat program (trivial) */
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14:21:49 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63575&oldid=63557 * Anthonykozar * (+362) /* Introductions */
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14:53:45 <esowiki> [[User:Anthonykozar]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=63576 * Anthonykozar * (+844) Short summary of my interests and links to my own web resources.
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15:07:41 <esowiki> [[Thue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63577&oldid=62355 * Anthonykozar * (+2) Added a missing '=' to the roman numerals example program.
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19:04:06 <HackEso> [U+1D45D MATHEMATICAL ITALIC SMALL P]
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20:23:13 <esowiki> [[Thue]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63578&oldid=63577 * TuxCrafting * (+0) /* Sample programs */ fix a tipo^H^H^Hypo
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20:40:31 <b_jonas> oh right, "SMALL" means lower case in unicode character names
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00:10:47 <fizzie> Internet says the 9th and 10th digit of a UPS "1Z..." format tracking number denotes the service type, but this one has a code that doesn't appear on any of the lists of service codes.
00:46:59 <int-e> . o O ( Re-routed through Fort Meade. )
00:56:30 <shachaf> imo where's the application form to join the int-e fan club
00:58:49 <int-e> what did I do now?
00:59:59 <shachaf> maybe it'll say it on the form
01:00:47 <int-e> fungot: do you have the forms?
01:00:47 <fungot> int-e: you probably do not know whether this might not have been altogether fnord but it drove out a cant far more offensive.
01:00:59 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches* ss wp ukparl youtube
01:01:02 <int-e> for once I approve of the fnord.
01:01:07 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
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16:52:41 <b_jonas> `? fundamental theorem of taneb
16:52:42 <HackEso> The Fundamental Theorem of Taneb states that for all strings S, if S describes a thing not involving sex, then it is provable that Taneb invented the thing described by S; and, furthermore, that it is provable that there exists a string T that describes a thing not involving sex that Taneb did not invent.
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17:31:09 <shachaf> I don't understand that theorem.
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18:36:11 <int-e> `cwlprits fundamental theorem of taneb
18:36:24 <int-e> not quite what I expected
18:39:14 <int-e> https://esolangs.org/logs/2015-07-22.html#l0d <-- I guess it's "you can't just claim something; you have to prove it"
18:40:37 <int-e> shachaf: someone complained about it before... leading to an... improvement? https://esolangs.org/logs/2017-05-27.html#lZ
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19:13:48 <arseniiv_> hm it should involve an actual Hebrew aleph then
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19:14:48 <arseniiv> BTW I was thinking about “all values are Xs” esolangs and I think I stumbled on a unused X
19:16:02 <arseniiv> namely, zippers and “half zippers” (terms with one hole, or maybe even several holes, homogeneous or heterogeneous) of various kinds
19:16:28 <arseniiv> you can combine terms with holes in a straightforward way
19:17:20 <arseniiv> though zipper operations—like go left, go right, go up for trees—are harder to realize if all we have is half-zippers
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19:21:06 <kmc> hm interesting
19:21:22 <kmc> is the code a zipper too
19:25:04 <arseniiv> (cont.) but I seemed to see an easy fix. E. g. take 1-holed binary trees T made from 2: T² → T, 0: T and _: T (this is a hole),
19:25:04 <arseniiv> let A = …2(InnerA, _)…, and let there be B and C; we can make A′ = …2(_, C)… and B′ = B[_ ↦ InnerA] or something. I’ve already forgot what it was
19:25:04 <arseniiv> kmc: in a language where it’s representable as a value, why not! It could even do something continuation-like maybe. I hadn’t think about code yet
19:26:33 <arseniiv> so I was more interested in a holed terms, not actual zippers, but I think zippers are OK too
19:28:03 <arseniiv> also for all operations to conserve count of _’s is fairly esoteric in itself I think
19:29:09 <arseniiv> hopefully it will be useful for someone! I have no ideas yet
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21:22:30 <esowiki> [[RarVM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63579&oldid=63438 * Void * (+52) /* See also */
21:23:02 <b_jonas> In the same vein as finding universal Turing-machines with a small number of symbols and control states, has there been attempts to improve on that if you're allowed to have two stacks instead of a tape, such as the one you can emulate in Underload?
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21:23:51 <kmc> isn't the correspondance pretty direct there
21:23:53 <ais523> b_jonas: I've mostly been trying that for Turing machines, The Waterfall Model, and Jelly, but not two-stack machines
21:24:09 <ais523> kmc: having two stacks is more flexible than having a tape because it allows you to insert and delete symbols
21:25:12 <ais523> that said, I'm not sure how much the insert and delete operations help, normally instead of an AAAABBBBBCCCC type encoding you can use ABCABCABCABC-B-
21:25:16 <b_jonas> I'm reminded of the minimization partly because I thought of the amazing brainfuck two bracket universality, and then I was wondering on Consumer society, and realized that in the restricted variant of Consumer Society where you can't nest brackets, you can still emulate two-stack machines
21:25:35 <ais523> so it only seems to help if you're trying to simulate unboundedly many counters/stacks, rather than any specific fixed number
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21:27:17 <b_jonas> I have to admit that I was also thinking of simulating multiple (but a fixed number of) tapes
21:28:22 <ais523> if you can have arbitrarily many tapes you can use them as counters by just marking a single 1 on each of them and using the position of the tape head as the counter value
21:28:22 <b_jonas> I guess Underload and Brainfuck makes that sort of thing easy, because they let you skip over cells without having to enumerate each symbol, unlike in say Thue
21:29:18 <ais523> that said, actually editing the tapes at runtime probably makes things more efficient
21:29:27 <b_jonas> I didn't want arbitrarily many tapes, but a finite number of tapes is useful for things like simulating a machine that has both code and data
21:29:56 <ais523> b_jonas: heh, I actually see programming languages the other way round to some extent: having separate code and data is hard to simulate, thus a language is better if it doesn't
21:30:16 <ais523> (but memory-mapping the code doesn't really help much because you still have to access two separate points in it at once)
21:30:22 <b_jonas> ais523: maybe, but I don't like the restriction of too few tapes
21:30:54 <ais523> what would be really nice from a tarpit point of view would be a simple ZISC that doesn't rely on random access
21:31:16 <ais523> which is, I guess, what a Turing machine is
21:31:54 <b_jonas> does "doesn't rely on random access" allow a machine with twelve stacks?
21:32:19 <ais523> technically, but I'm aiming to have just a single data structure (stack is impossible, but queue/tape are reasonable)
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21:34:32 <b_jonas> what I'd like to know is, is there a natural number n such that for any natural number N, you can simulate any N-stack finite control machine with an n-stack finite control machine without more than polylog factor slowdown?
21:34:40 <b_jonas> with some reasonably limited translation
21:35:05 <b_jonas> polylog in the runtime but only for fixed N, exponent may grow in N
21:35:19 <ais523> which one is polylog again?
21:35:59 <b_jonas> so simulating t timesteps in O(t*log**10(t)) is fine, but simulating t timesteps in O(t**1.01) timesteps is not fine
21:36:20 <b_jonas> as in how many time more step it takes
21:36:26 <b_jonas> yeah, I know my phrasing is weird
21:36:45 <b_jonas> but basically you need O(n**2) time to simulate a two-tape turing-machine on a one-tape turing-machine
21:37:01 <b_jonas> and that's actually Theta(n**2) or something like that I think
21:37:11 <b_jonas> because it can't move data to distances faster
21:37:43 <ais523> my guess is that you can't because once you're storing two of the N stacks on the same one of the n stack, you can't change from an operation on one of those stacks to an operation on another in less than time proportional to the difference in their sizes
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21:37:57 <b_jonas> but my question is like, are five tapes enough? is a fixed number of tapes enough?
21:38:12 <ais523> so any polylog-speed interpreter would have to be optimising somehow, and it seems implausible that you could optimise /all/ programs
21:38:23 <HackEso> Your omnidryad saddle principal ideal golfing toe-obsessed "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty eldrazi grinch is a punctual expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. His arkup-nemesis is mediawiki's default diff. He twice punned without noticing it.
21:38:32 <b_jonas> ais523: amortized is a relevant word
21:39:01 <ais523> I don't think you could amortize a random pattern of jumping around between the stacks
21:39:14 <b_jonas> at some point it did seem plausible to me that there may be a general scheme to optimize compressing multiple tapes that way
21:39:24 <ais523> maybe you could, though? you'd need some sort of cache
21:41:43 <b_jonas> like, when one stack is consumed faster than another, you could spend some of that time swapping around their elements on the tape that stores both, so the top of both are stored close to your head
21:42:08 <b_jonas> you don't rearrange the whole tape of course,
21:42:16 <b_jonas> just a part proportional with how much time you spent
21:43:14 <b_jonas> you need a second tape for this of course, otherwise even exchanging k elements with another k elements would take O(k) time, but you can have a second tape
21:44:14 <b_jonas> but you do have a second tape, so you can collect amortized credit for k time, then spend another k time to swap k elements of one stack with k elements of another stack, as represented on the tape, in O(k) time with the help of another tape
21:44:51 <b_jonas> I couldn't get this to work, but neither do I see why it must be impossible
21:47:05 <ais523> the problem case is the one where tape n contains nk elements, for some constant k
21:47:12 <ais523> and all the tapes are growining
21:47:22 <ais523> (but not forever, eventually you start reading the values again)
21:48:17 <ais523> admittedly, you can deal with /that/ case by changing the interleave pattern, but it's hard to come up with a general rule for doing that
21:49:14 <b_jonas> yes, there can't be a fixed interleave pattern, because you can't predict (on the thread of halting problem) how the stacks will be accessed in the future. you need some sort of tricky dynamic structure.
21:55:14 <b_jonas> the polylog of runtime allowance means you can even store each original stack element repeatedly log time times, and tag each occurance with the depth of that element from the bottom of the stack in binary
21:55:27 <ais523> I'm not sure about that "you can't predict"; it's /probably/ correct, but if the program you're predicting produces its output quickly it'll be quite predictable, and if it's slow you'll be able to use the time it's taking as part of the time you have
21:55:57 <int-e> Can we do something adverserial? It seems that there's a k+1 tape universal machine for k-tape TMs... so we can actually run the assumed k-tape version of our (say) 3k-tape machine and act upon what it writes and reads on a tape...
21:56:00 <ais523> so things like the halting theorem don't prove that it's impossible
21:57:30 <int-e> (The problem with that adversarial approach is that we can't know what the data written *means*... halting problem and all that; the transformation to the k-tape machine can be all sorts of magical. :-( )
21:58:48 <b_jonas> unrelated question. ais523: you said you were writing a library for balanced trees, copy-on-write. will that library allow me to implement a tree-in-a-tree, where I store the nodes of a tree as values inside a tree and the address of those nodes as keys, to be able to store all previous versions of the tree in memory together and any number of iterators to them in such a way that the iterators never go
21:58:54 <b_jonas> stale as long as the node exists?
21:59:57 <b_jonas> ok, that last part was phrased a bit confusingly
22:00:32 <ais523> I haven't really got anywhere with personal programming projects in the last several weeks
22:00:41 <ais523> it's all been my day job and non-programming things
22:00:54 <b_jonas> I've been like that for years now
22:02:01 <b_jonas> and there's of course so much that I'd _like_ to write
22:02:14 <b_jonas> but there's all sort of other non-job projects that I'd also like to work on
22:02:34 <b_jonas> or being an adult is hard or something
22:40:06 <arseniiv> life is more specifically too short :(
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01:58:11 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx/Sator Resatus]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=63580 * Salpynx * (+6203) draft of a new 2D string(/graph) rewriting language. It almost makes sense, still working on it.
02:02:53 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx/Sator Resatus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63581&oldid=63580 * Salpynx * (+2) /* Syntax */ obligatory single post-submit typo fix
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12:06:12 <esowiki> [[RarVM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63582&oldid=63579 * Void * (-35)
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14:16:28 <int-e> fungot: do you have a more complicated reset sequence than a light bulb?
14:16:30 <fungot> int-e: mr president, the overwhelming majority of delegations in the candidate countries and member states have now demonstrated their sympathy with the views of parliament. it is therefore important for the union to adopt coherent positions in its relationship with all the directorates and commission mechanisms, to achieve the same results without the problems of the world, and that we should persist with the fnord procedure o
14:17:24 <int-e> fungot: don't you just hate it when politicians exceed their alloted time in a discussion...
14:17:25 <fungot> int-e: mr president, ladies and gentlemen, the case and if my reading of the 2001 budget, this house and the american government is giving consular assistance to mr ferrerro and is in the interests of community priorities. we must build this to last permanently. you have made a significant contribution to the financing and promotion of other flexible forms of employment, the finnish presidency of the committee on legal affairs
14:32:32 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl* ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
14:32:53 <arseniiv> ah, so it’s not ukparl anymore?..
14:33:19 <arseniiv> I was confused int-e was called mr president
14:33:33 <int-e> arseniiv: I didn't take it personally. :)
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15:56:12 <kmc> fungot for president
15:56:13 <fungot> kmc: mr president, i will be able to address the movement of capital, knowledge and training that we are today a zone of profound upheaval, if we are careful, i think my answer was particularly hesitant. i pointed this out i shall not do so because it is clear that europe has responsibilities in the region.
15:56:38 <kmc> fungot: do you always start with "mr president"?
15:56:38 <fungot> kmc: unfortunately the berend amendment to the minutes on this point, even though there has clearly been moved up the agenda.
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16:45:58 <esowiki> [[Rook]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=63583 * Areallycoolusername * (+1126) Created page with "Rook is an [[esoteric programming language]] made by [User: Areallycoolusername|Areallycoolusername]. It's [[Queue-based]] and made to be the smallest [[turing-tarpit]] ever...."
16:47:25 <esowiki> [[Rook]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63584&oldid=63583 * Areallycoolusername * (-6)
16:50:33 <esowiki> [[Rook]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63585&oldid=63584 * Areallycoolusername * (+78)
16:51:30 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63586&oldid=63556 * Areallycoolusername * (+11) /* R */
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17:00:44 <fizzie> fungot: Madam President, how do you feel about the latest amendment to the agreement?
17:00:44 <fungot> fizzie: there are two options: either indirectly, by improving the quality of her report because it takes so long for one thing, a mid-term review, and the consequences for particularly vulnerable groups and populations inside afghanistan and to expose the public to understand.
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20:35:59 <sombrero> , some esoteric stuff has been posted in a non-easoteric setting
20:36:11 <sombrero> https://worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/questions/149255/super-talkers-and-next-generation-economies
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20:44:11 <int-e> fungot is usually more coherent than that...
20:44:11 <fungot> int-e: madam president, i wish to point out that our experience, my political position is that a policy that is out of this statute; the fact that some of the honourable member's analysis. unemployment does not date from the ratification procedure and to examine how aspartame was approved in november, i shall overlook the fact that last week, in seville the european council.
20:45:02 <int-e> but I suspect it's the wrong kind of esoterics
20:45:08 <HackEso> sombrero: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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21:21:48 <fizzie> fungot: Aspartame causes unemployment?!
21:21:48 <fungot> fizzie: i should like to say that i talk too much in the tindemans report is not an end in itself. i should like to refer once again to do all in my power to do so.
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21:31:03 <sombrero> yep, aspartame cause deployment
21:31:10 <sombrero> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Linked_list#Patent
23:26:06 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx/Sator Resatus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63587&oldid=63581 * Salpynx * (+1364) Hypercubes...
23:26:49 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx/Sator Resatus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63588&oldid=63587 * Salpynx * (-1) /* External resources */
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00:04:10 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx/Sator Resatus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63589&oldid=63588 * Salpynx * (+1008) The Waterfall Model compilation sketch
00:07:22 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx/Sator Resatus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63590&oldid=63589 * Salpynx * (+2) /* The Waterfall Model */ bug fix (there may be more)
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01:14:05 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx/Sator Resatus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63591&oldid=63590 * Salpynx * (+1095) /* Examples */ cellular automata, aspirational for now
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07:39:50 <ski> The answer become "Isosets", a foundational mathematical theory, where not only "sets" can contain several "elements", but "elements" can belong to several "sets".
07:40:00 * ski scratches head
07:47:31 <shachaf> What a bizarre set theory.
07:51:26 <myname> i always thought elements can belong to several sets all along
08:02:05 <shachaf> So I was thinking about function arguments.
08:03:11 <shachaf> Instead of currying multi-argument functions, which requires a bunch of complicated features like closures, it seems reasonable to me for a C-level language to have only one-argument functions that take tuples (like in maths).
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08:04:23 <shachaf> You could also have each function implicitly define a struct for its arguments.
08:04:56 <shachaf> Say [x,y,z] is tuple/struct literal syntax. The equivalent of "int f(char x, bool y)" would be a function taking a struct { char x; bool y; } argument.
08:05:29 <shachaf> You can have keyword arguments by allowing a struct literal syntax, so you can write [x='a', y=true] or something and it extends to both structs and functions automatically.
08:05:44 <shachaf> You can also support default arguments with default struct value members and so on.
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08:07:01 <shachaf> Hmm, the language feature I had in mind for making this work isn't quite well-specified, but it's something like flexible/dynamic compile-time values and statically runtime values.
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08:07:54 <shachaf> E.g. some languages support integer literals that are arbitrary-size, but when you use a literal at a particular type, it turns into a value of that type and at that point can't be coerced further.
08:09:10 <shachaf> Similarly I was thinking that [x,y,z] or [x,b=y,c=z] are "compile-time literals" that can be coerced into tuples and structs and so on, but you can't coerce a tuple value into a struct.
08:10:11 <shachaf> This kind of system seems like it'd be pretty nice for making multi-argument and keyword/default argument functions work.
08:10:17 <shachaf> Do you know of anything like it?
08:10:42 <ski> hm, "flexible/dynamic compile-time values and statically runtime values" sounds backwards to how things are usually described, elaborate ?
08:11:04 <ski> can you coerce a record into a tuple ?
08:11:37 <ski> would the default values be part of the type ?
08:11:40 <shachaf> I should have better names for these things.
08:11:59 <shachaf> Yes, I'm imagining default values being part of a type (like struct T { int a = 5; }; in C++11).
08:13:23 <ski> hm, so you can have records with the same fields (of the same types), but different defaults
08:13:36 <shachaf> You could have struct A { int x; }; struct B { int x; };, which are distinct types, and the compiletime value [x=5] could be used as either one.
08:13:44 <shachaf> Sure, they're distinct types.
08:13:49 <ski> does this entail nominal rather than structural matching of record types ?
08:14:01 <shachaf> Just like you can write void f(int x, char y = 'a'); void g(int x, char y = 'b'); in C++.
08:14:05 <ski> (aka heavy-weight vs. light-weight)
08:14:34 <shachaf> I'm not sure what you mean.
08:15:32 <ski> what if you want to pass on a record that one function returns, to another. would both have to refer to the same, named, type, or is it enough that the types structurally match ?
08:16:02 <shachaf> I'm not sure what you mean by "record".
08:16:18 <ski> the same as "struct"
08:16:54 <shachaf> If you want to write f(g(x)), where g returns a record and f takes a record, they'd have to be the same type.
08:18:02 <shachaf> But it might make sense, as long as f can explicitly specify that it takes a tuple or a specific type or something, to allow them to match.
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08:18:59 <shachaf> Writing f(g(x)) for multiargument f isn't supported in most languages at all -- I'm not sure how important it is for cases where f and g don't know about each other.
08:19:17 <shachaf> Oh, and you could presumably define an operator that explicitly takes a record into a "compiletime literal".
08:19:51 <shachaf> So it'd turn a value x of type struct A { int a; char b; }; into the record [a=x.a, b=x.b] or [x.a, x.b] or something.
08:20:00 <shachaf> Then you could write f(!g(x)) or something like that.
08:21:17 <shachaf> (I have some other ideas that might use this compiletime-only value in a pretty foundational way. But I'm still not sure how well it would work.)
08:22:31 <ski> hm, so `[x = 5]' is like an initializer, or a compound literal, that can be used to construct a value of some type (in an appropriate context), rather than itself specifying the value itself ?
08:23:29 <shachaf> I think so? I'm not quite sure what you mean.
08:23:45 <ski> (i think you have something like that in Pascal and Ada, where you declare named types which act roughly as `newtype's, and you can initialize variables holding them with ones coming from the representation type. i don't recall the details well enough)
08:23:55 <shachaf> I'm imagining it as a standalone value that can exist at compiletime but can't be assigned to a runtime variable (there's no memory layout for it etc.).
08:24:33 <shachaf> A macro/compiletime function can presumably operate on these things, but not a runtime function.
08:24:38 <ski> i mean that `[x = 5]' itself wouldn't have a well-defined type, but given a context of some tuple or record type, it can be used to construct a value of that type ?
08:24:57 <shachaf> And coercions from these literals to records can be statically checked at the time they're used.
08:32:04 <ski> (in C, you can't write `{4,"foo"}' as a value, but you can write `struct {int n; char *s} str = {4,"foo"};', and you can write a compound literal `(struct {int n; char *s}){4,"foo"}', even replacing `{4,"foo"}' with `{.n = 4,.s = "foo"}')
08:32:45 <ski> (hm, the former being called a "designated initializer", apparenty)
08:33:03 <shachaf> C99's compound literals/designated initializers are quite nice.
08:35:21 <ski> <ski> can you coerce a record into a tuple ?
08:36:14 <shachaf> I think the answer is no, if tuple types exist.
08:36:40 <shachaf> (Tuple is just a special struct with no field names, or field names .0 .1 etc.?)
08:37:18 <ski> so how would this `!' work ?
08:37:57 <shachaf> I'm not sure, I just thought of it.
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08:39:46 <ski> fair enough
08:39:57 <shachaf> You can say that it mechanically turns a value of a record type into a literal.
08:40:30 <shachaf> struct { int x; char y; } v; "!v" -> [x=v.x, y=v.y]
08:40:56 <ski> so `[a=x.a, b=x.b]' rather than `[x.a, x.b]' then, i suppose
08:41:10 <shachaf> If you give an explicit name to the literal->record coercion, say @, then @!v is equal to v. Or something.
09:27:17 <shachaf> ski: But if [a=x, b=y] is a compiletime value, it's a pretty odd one.
09:27:29 <shachaf> Because x and y are runtime values.
09:27:52 <shachaf> Maybe that's not that odd. But it's not what people usually mean by "compile-time values", I think.
09:38:28 <ski> partially static value
09:39:03 <ski> (cf. staged programming, binding time analysis, partial evaluation)
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13:07:41 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx/Sator Resatus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63592&oldid=63591 * Salpynx * (+911) /* Higher dimensions */ tesseract skeleton construction attempt
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13:32:25 <Sgeo> Now that I recognize this conversion math as a rotation, it looks a lot easier to reverse
13:32:59 <Taneb> Which conversion math?
13:33:14 <Sgeo> https://gist.github.com/Sgeo/4c58d69fa4375e4f2f3592e1f9c6eb0e
13:35:03 <Sgeo> Blah // Perform a rotation about z: Roll. We only need x, so y isn't transformed.
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14:11:51 <HackEso> olist 1168: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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15:10:08 <esowiki> [[Talk:Rook]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=63593 * A * (+366) Please Psecify
15:10:47 <esowiki> [[Rook]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63594&oldid=63585 * A * (+2) Bad link.
15:11:03 <esowiki> [[Talk:Rook]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63595&oldid=63593 * A * (+0) Bad link.
15:13:23 <esowiki> [[Iota]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63596&oldid=53227 * A * (+293)
15:16:40 <esowiki> [[Talk:Rook]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63597&oldid=63595 * A * (+415) /* Please specify */
15:17:50 <esowiki> [[Talk:Rook]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63598&oldid=63597 * A * (+20) Bad link again.
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20:08:48 <esowiki> [[Iota]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63599&oldid=63596 * Ais523 * (-293) Undo revision 63596 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]]): copyright violation (this content is copied from a CC-by-sa source)
20:10:50 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] revision * Ais523 * Ais523 changed visibility of a revision on page [[Iota]]: content hidden: Copyright violation
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20:56:04 <zzo38> Is there the possibility to guess at the proper values of rounded values in a JPEG file in order to try to improve the quality of a JPEG picture without altering the file?
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21:42:47 <b_jonas> zzo38: probably only when the JPGE is of a very bad quality
21:45:10 <zzo38> Maybe you are correct, but still, how might be done?
21:46:44 <fizzie> You could build a model of what uncompressed pictures are like, and then twiddle with the rounding to make the result fit the model better.
21:47:25 <b_jonas> zzo38: look at neighboring blocks, see what doesn't cause an ugly edge between blocks
21:48:19 <b_jonas> zzo38: and when there's a clear boundary of some object, try to make it mostly straight and sharp and at the same location on all three plains
21:49:20 <zzo38> OK, those are ideas to do
21:50:10 <b_jonas> it might be an AI-complete task in general, because after some basic improvements, you have to recognize what the image is trying to depict
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21:51:31 <zzo38> Yes, that is what it might be.
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22:59:56 <zzo38> Finally now they are adding into SQLite a SQLITE_DBCONFIG_NO_DQS option, but maybe there should be some way to set the that option at compile time too rather than only at run time.
23:12:03 <shachaf> zzo38: Did you see the idea about function arguments that I wrote here yesterday?
23:17:32 <shachaf> Ah. Well, tell me if you see it.
23:17:49 <shachaf> I have some other ideas and questions that I didn't mention.
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23:34:33 <zzo38> OK, I looked at it now.
23:38:22 <zzo38> You can pass structs in C and LLVM (and in LLVM, structs is just tuples anyways), but if interfacing with C codes, they will work differently. (You can deal with this in the declaration perhaps, though, and generate code to convert if needed)
23:42:22 <shachaf> This is kind of a syntax/language semantics thing. The calling convention is ideally about the same.
23:43:59 <zzo38> Still if you use multiple outputs also as a multiple input then conversion must be performed (although it can be done automatically).
00:07:25 <ski> conversion ?
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00:12:20 <shachaf> ski: Presumably this is what the ! operator I mentioned the other day does.
00:14:35 <zzo38> I thought though it could be done automatically so you do not need a operator for that, in this case.
00:15:23 <shachaf> That might be a good idea but I'm reluctant to have automatic "casting" between types that happen to have fields with the same name. I don't know.
00:16:20 <shachaf> Another thing: An "overloaded" function is one that dispatches at compiletime based on the struct literal it gets.
00:16:49 <zzo38> Maybe you are correct, but still I think in the case described like f(g(x)) the type is presumably already correct at the source language level, but a conversion may be needed when compiling it into a LLVM code or native code or however it is done
00:16:51 <shachaf> Another thing: The same literals can perhaps be used for matching as well as construction.
00:17:21 <shachaf> Oh, well, for code generation you can just do whatever.
00:19:19 <shachaf> I'm not quite sure how sum types should work (if they exist at all -- should they?). There are a few ways to do it.
00:34:12 <zzo38> What program language are you trying to make?
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01:03:49 <esowiki> [[Iota]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63600&oldid=63599 * A * (+53)
01:04:21 <esowiki> [[Iota]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63601&oldid=63600 * A * (+21) /* External resources */
01:40:41 <int-e> shachaf: so... MD5 differential paths are tricky
01:48:55 <int-e> shachaf: One element is this: For unsigned 32 bit integers d, x, y, if you know d = x - y but neither x nor y, what possible values can (x <<< s) - (y <<< s) have, where <<< is bit rotation and 0 < s < 32 is fixed?
02:10:09 <shachaf> That's (x <<< s) + ((x + ~d) <<< s) + 1, I guess?
02:15:42 <int-e> (x <<< s) + ((~x + d) <<< s) + 1 ?
02:15:49 <int-e> but not sure how that helps
02:16:15 <int-e> (And no, there aren't that many possible values.)
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02:21:33 <int-e> shachaf: there are up to four different values: http://paste.debian.net/1088823/
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02:51:06 <zzo38> Is there a command in Linux (or in vim) to sort blocks separated by blank lines by the first line of the block?
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03:28:20 <zzo38> I found a way to do it: first using s/^$/^@/ (the ^@ must be an actual null character, not the two symbols ^@) and then sort -fz and then s/^@// to get rid of the null characters.
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04:51:25 <Sgeo> I think I understand that convert code better. The magnetic vector is somehow tilted alongside the headset, and the rotations effectively show the real direction of the vector
04:51:50 <Sgeo> I still don't know what the vector is supposed to mean, though? Direction the headset is pointed except tilted?
04:52:00 <Sgeo> *relative to the pitch&roll?
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05:03:35 <zzo38> Do you like the idea of "register forwarding format" in a format like SSA with basic blocks? That is an alternative to using phi nodes.
05:04:35 <kmc> if it's what I think it is, then yes
05:04:41 <kmc> and I started making a SSA backend using that format
05:07:12 <Sgeo> https://gist.github.com/Sgeo/4c58d69fa4375e4f2f3592e1f9c6eb0e
05:07:29 <Sgeo> I should sleepp
05:11:28 <shachaf> I like the form of SSA described in https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~fp/courses/15411-f13/lectures/06-ssa.pdf
05:11:33 <kmc> zzo38: is it the one where basic blocks are like functions that you tail-call?
05:11:34 <shachaf> And also https://www.cs.princeton.edu/~appel/papers/ssafun.pdf
05:12:01 <kmc> yeah, I think that is a much more elegant way to represent SSA than phi nodes
05:13:34 <kmc> i'm having a good day, I hope you are having a good day too
05:13:37 <kmc> happy solstice
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05:35:10 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, it is like that
05:45:45 <zzo38> In northern hemisphere this will be summer solstice. Did you figure out what time of day? I tried with Swiss Ephemeris it seem to be at approximately 15:54 UTC
05:45:57 <zzo38> They also call summer solstice as "Litha"
07:01:04 <ski> (hm, i've seen that "`goto's with parameters to parameterized basic blocks" idea in Andrew W. Appel's book "Modern Compiler Implementation in (ML|Java|C)" in 1998 at <https://www.cs.princeton.edu/~appel/modern/>)
07:04:00 <shachaf> Presumably the same kind of thing as the Appel paper I linked?
07:09:42 * ski . o O ( "Compiling without continuations" by Luke Maurer,Paul Downen,Zena M. Ariola,Simon Peyton Jones in 2016-11-17 at <https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/compiling-without-continuations.pdf> )
07:10:37 <ski> (cf. title of book "Compiling with Continuations" by Andrew W. Appel in 1992 at <https://www.cs.princeton.edu/~appel/papers/cwc.html>)
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07:12:16 * ski . o O ( "The anatomy of a loop: A story of scope and control" by Olin Shivers in 2005-09 at <https://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/shivers/citations.html#loop>,<https://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/shivers/papers/loop.p(s|df)> )
07:12:22 <ski> shachaf : yes
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07:19:12 <ski> (thinking of the "Binders (control-)Dominate (uses /) References" scope idea)
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08:59:20 <b_jonas> zzo38: what if there's a custom structure for the argument suite of each function you define, but the only way to construct an instance of such a struct is implicitly from the arguments when you call that function, and the only way to deconstruct it is when the function matches it to its formal parameter list
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09:34:44 <ski> and similarly for the results of a function ?
09:37:50 <b_jonas> no, functions have just one result
09:40:46 <ski> why just one result ?
09:42:29 <b_jonas> so that you can write proper tree-shaped expressions, with function calls where you want a value
09:42:52 <b_jonas> rather than having to assign each return value to a temporary variable like you do in prolog
09:48:34 <b_jonas> if you want two results, then make the function save the second one through a writable reference where the caller allocates space, so you can still use the first result in an expression. that makes the code more readable.
09:48:50 <b_jonas> that that's a good design is proven by time (sorry, bad joke)
09:49:38 <b_jonas> time has two results, so you pass a pointer to it for where it should save the second result
09:49:48 <b_jonas> but you can still call time in an expression and use the first result rightaway
10:12:58 <ski> i'm not sure an out-parameter of a function makes code more readable
10:14:12 <ski> and i'm not sure i see why wanting to allow nested trees, for single (unnamed) result, should preclude also allow multiple results
10:14:32 <ski> hmm .. perhaps one should allow an expression to bind variables
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10:35:47 <b_jonas> yes, I know the problem with passing the output address as an argument is that (unless you're ais523 with his fancy linear type systems) you can't prove with the type system that the function will assign to that address,
10:36:04 <b_jonas> so sometimes you want a struct return value instead if you really want to be sure that the output is valid
11:28:29 <ski> i think something like Mercury's instantiation checking system could be used
11:29:38 <ski> (i suppose i was more thinking about symmetry, and about ergonomics, though)
11:38:18 <ski> a logic programming language, with a modern static type system, similar to the MLs or Haskell, and with a static mode, instantiation and determinism checker
11:39:56 <ski> it keeps track of which parts of data structures are instantiated (you may think "initialized"), has support for input and output parameters of "procedures" (really predicates, which can be thought of as procedures overloaded on in&out parameter patterns)
11:41:20 <b_jonas> ski: what's the relation to the Oz logic programming language?
11:44:29 <ski> not related, apart from both being LPLs ?
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14:16:13 <b_jonas> my hon. and learned friend fungot, when does the SGDQ of this year start?
14:16:13 <fungot> b_jonas: mr president, and that is what we really wanted to help, as well as strengthening the links between the west and who have actually sought to lever out manufacturer responsibility and environmental protection are concerned.
14:16:46 <b_jonas> yeah, typical politician, never gives precise dates
14:16:55 <b_jonas> just weasel phrases about how much he cares
14:40:44 <b_jonas> my hon. and learned friend fungot, how many rarities does the Yu Gi Oh trading card game have?
14:40:44 <fungot> b_jonas: mr president, mr graefe zu baringdorf may very well be people who are its victims in eu states as low as they are worded. there are risks, undoubtedly, by the events of recent weeks, but today i am again disappointed with the sluggish and begrudging progress to date in other respects of relevance to safety. but having said that, and with it air pollution.
14:42:36 <b_jonas> mind you, M:tG has many different rarities too, it just doesn't give names to most of them.
14:43:28 <b_jonas> there are expansions in which all packs have one of a certain set of cards, such as double-sided,
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14:43:45 <b_jonas> expansions with extra cards that don't appear in packs,
14:44:28 <b_jonas> cards with two or three or four different art variants at the same rarity of the same set, and even that trick with limited Islands
14:44:46 <b_jonas> un-sets also do some crazy stuff
14:48:09 <b_jonas> also cards that are available in theme decks only, either not at all from boosters or less easily from boosters, such as Sol Ring reprinted in Commander sets, or Snow Islands reprinted in Coldsnap theme decks
14:54:14 <b_jonas> that reminds me, there are now two permanent cards with {S} in their mana cost. let me check if they remembered to patch the offering rules to account for that.
14:55:10 <b_jonas> ``` grep -E "^117\.7g" share/mtg/rules.txt
14:55:11 <HackEso> 117.7g If a cost is reduced by an amount of mana represented by one or more snow mana symbols, the cost is reduced by that much generic mana.
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15:34:02 <esowiki> [[Celsee]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=63602 * FAKE1007 * (+2330) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=Celsee |paradigms=Imperative |author=[https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:FAKE1007 FAKE1007] |year=[[:Category:2019|2019]] |memsys=:Category:Queue-based|..."
15:38:02 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63603&oldid=63586 * FAKE1007 * (+13)
15:47:41 <esowiki> [[Celsee]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63604&oldid=63602 * FAKE1007 * (-2)
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16:56:55 <b_jonas> A single precision floating point number is one that uses the same number of significant digits in the mantissa regardless what the exponent is.
16:57:14 <b_jonas> A multiple precision floating point number can trade off space between the mantissa and the exponent.
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17:11:49 <b_jonas> oren: In less common japanese delimiter punctuation characters, I know you already have "・" and "〜" and " ", but can you also add "゠" to your font?
17:13:00 <zzo38> If some sets do not have random packs then I should think, rarity is not applicable.
17:18:04 <b_jonas> zzo38: sort of. the rarity as printed on the cards isn't quite applicable, but in some cases it's still a helpful guide: cards in From the Valut products are printed with all mythic expansion symbol, which makes sense because they're of a low print run;
17:18:28 <b_jonas> extra cards in core set are printed with a common exp symbol, which makes sense becuase they tend to be cheap and in enough supply
17:20:46 <zzo38> Yes, but it is not applicable to draft/sealed formats, usually. (If you play a cube, then you can put whatever cards you want, so again rarity is not applicable. If you define your own set to use for a draft/sealed, whether it is with official cards or custom cards or both, then you can define your own rarities, too.)
17:21:33 <b_jonas> sure, in draft/sealed formats you usually get cards from a booster packs
17:21:46 <b_jonas> so there the rarity symbols are usually appropriate
17:21:49 <b_jonas> with some stupid exceptions
17:24:17 <b_jonas> so there's a big range of variance within rarities, but in general for typical cards rarities are somewhat indicative
17:24:42 <b_jonas> the stupid exceptions could be handled better, but having rarities is better than not having the rarity printed on the card like old sets do
17:26:24 <zzo38> I think a database should be having another field for the effective rarities from the printed rarities; if it cannot appear in random packs at all then "hidden" rarity is specified, for example. You can then use this data to make up random packs by computer, too, as well as information for strategy for drafts even if you are not playing on the computer.
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17:30:26 <b_jonas> zzo38: but that wouldn't be enough. the prices depend on demand too, not just supply, which is why say Black Lotus is more expensive than Mox Emerald even though they were printed in the same numbers originally
17:31:20 <b_jonas> and it's not just with such old cards, although obviously newer cards won't be as expensive as those
17:31:47 <b_jonas> but still, cards that are printed only as rares in the same one recent expert expension can vary in value
17:31:58 <b_jonas> because one is one that lots of people want, and another is one that few people want
17:32:03 <b_jonas> and that happens with uncommons too
17:32:32 <b_jonas> eventually it's just a market where you only know the price if you buy the card
17:34:18 <zzo38> OK, although I am not concerned about prices, but only the distribution in random packs of a specific set.
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17:36:58 <b_jonas> for old sets, you just have double and triple and quadruple commons and uncommons and rares, those you can mostly guess from the number of different art
17:37:33 <b_jonas> in modern sets, when they differ from the usual recipee of uniform probabilities in three rarities, plus mythics replacing the rare sometimes, then it's something tricky that isn't just a card doubled
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17:38:07 <b_jonas> it's crazy stuff like every pack having one double-faced card but in varying rarities, or pairs of cards sometimes distributed together, or even more crazy stuff
17:38:22 <b_jonas> yeah, it's actually four rarities becuse there's also basic lands which are sometimes replaced by other cards in sets
17:38:31 <zzo38> If I can know what all of that stuff is, then perhaps a format can be done for that.
17:42:07 <b_jonas> sadly I don't know what all that stuff is
17:42:13 <b_jonas> heck, I don't even know how it works in the time spiral block
17:42:27 <b_jonas> I don't care too much though, because I just play constructed
17:42:32 <b_jonas> so pack distributions don't matter much
17:42:33 <esowiki> [[Celsee]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63605&oldid=63604 * FAKE1007 * (+188)
17:42:44 <b_jonas> it's just that in general, rare cards are more expensive and common cards are more cheap
17:43:04 <b_jonas> like I said it's not totally uniform, there are bad rares cheaper than good uncommons
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17:45:48 <zzo38> In a SQL database, one table could be indexed by Multiverse ID, and then references set, card (indexed by name, perhaps), and then specifies printed rarity, effective rarity, and printed text.
17:47:44 <zzo38> If needed, the table of sets could also include the SQL codes for a random pack; SQLite has no built-in way to execute queries using that, but it is possible to do by the use of virtual tables, or alternatively a view could be used with several parts, and one part is selected by the set table
17:57:17 <esowiki> [[Celsee]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63606&oldid=63605 * FAKE1007 * (+273) /* Examples */
17:58:02 <esowiki> [[Celsee]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63607&oldid=63606 * FAKE1007 * (+54) /* Examples */
17:59:49 <esowiki> [[Celsee]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63608&oldid=63607 * FAKE1007 * (+2) /* 2 numbers kills */
18:00:44 <esowiki> [[Celsee]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63609&oldid=63608 * FAKE1007 * (-28) /* 2 numbers kills */
18:04:22 <esowiki> [[Celsee]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63610&oldid=63609 * FAKE1007 * (+100)
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18:26:58 <HackEso> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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18:54:16 <zzo38> Now in this game, we have to protect everyone who is being attacked by their kingdom, including the goblins, elves, kobolds, illithids, dwarves, and also the human priests, too.
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19:06:58 <zzo38> Maybe SQLite should have a function sqlite3_str*sqlite3_context_str(sqlite3_context*) which can sometimes be convenient, and might also sometimes make it a bit more efficient if the user function is called on the right of a SQL || operator
19:09:14 <zzo38> (Maybe also a new flag is needed for sqlite3_create_function() so that it can generate the proper VDBE code to deal with sqlite3_context_str().)
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19:32:42 <zzo38> One idea I have that could be used in a compiler in a programming language is something like "base zero floating numbers" at compile time; it consists of X and Y (both integers, except X must be nonzero), and represents the number X times zero to the power of Y. If used in a context where a integer is expected (including any number used at run time), then it is automatically converted, resulting in a compile error if Y is negative.
19:36:31 <zzo38> For example if it has a sizeof operator like C, then if you make sizeof a zero length array, or sizeof a array of elements all having a size of zero, then it it will be able to multiply by zero without forgetting the original numbers. There may be other uses too, maybe.
19:37:46 <b_jonas> so you just want compile-time types, like you can name and manipulate in C++ with templates?
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19:39:21 <zzo38> I don't know how that works in C++, but that doesn't seem quite same because then presumably it will not work with ordinary numbers used in compile time calculations.
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19:44:00 <b_jonas> you can use ordinary numbers, at least fixed size integers
19:45:29 <zzo38> But then what if you use sizeof, I would expect it would not use your own template then, isn't it?
19:46:14 <b_jonas> sizeof tells how many bytes the compiler would use for an object type
19:46:44 <b_jonas> it's always a compile-time constant, because you can't have types vary in runtime
19:46:50 <b_jonas> at least not the compile-time types
19:46:57 <b_jonas> the dynamic types can vary, but sizeof doesn't know about that
19:47:12 <b_jonas> it only knows the type of expressions and variables and such like
19:47:35 <zzo38> Yes, but it won't work if you try to divide by zero by compile time, in case the size is zero.
19:47:48 <b_jonas> yes, if you try to divide by zero that's an error
19:48:04 <b_jonas> but you can get the type of an element of an array type at compile time
19:48:16 <b_jonas> like sizeof(a[0]) where a is an array
19:48:31 <b_jonas> you can also get the size of a struct member, like sizeof(a.x) and sizeof(a.y)
19:48:40 <b_jonas> you can't compute those from the size of a
19:49:03 <zzo38> Yes, but that doesn't work if the element size or array size are zero (which is possible in GNU C, but I think not in C++)
19:49:44 <b_jonas> you can also do that if you only have a type, not a value of that type, as in what sizeof(*(T *)0) would do if it was allowed
19:50:19 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, no types have zero size, and you can't have zero sized built-in arrays
19:50:41 <b_jonas> you could have a custom array type that supports arrays of length zero, but it won't have a sizeof 0 either
19:51:12 <b_jonas> you could make it so it has sizeof of 1, by not storing an actual array if the length is 0
19:52:13 <b_jonas> rust allows you to have actual 0 size types
19:52:23 <b_jonas> it's too late to allow them in C++, breaks some existing programs
19:52:39 <b_jonas> rust allows to have both 0 sized types and 0 length arrays
19:52:54 <zzo38> Yes, and so does GNU C also allows it.
19:52:54 <b_jonas> it even has a few rare special cases for how 0 sized types are special
19:53:20 <zzo38> Do those special cases allow you to ever divide by zero?
19:53:36 <b_jonas> yes, GNU C started to allow them before C implementations got close to each other with standardization, so there are programs using GNU C that depend on zero-length arrays
19:53:57 <b_jonas> so it's best not to change that either now, even if it makes the rules a bit too complicated
19:54:11 <b_jonas> now you have to use arrays of _negative_ size rather than 0 size if you want a guaranteed assertion error in C
19:54:26 <b_jonas> zzo38: no, it doesn't allow you to divide integers by zero
19:54:50 <zzo38> Yes, I sometimes use zero-length arrays, mostly at the end of structs, but not always
19:56:19 <zzo38> It is possible to divide by zero in a "wheel", but what I defined above is not a wheel; although multiplication and division always work, addition and subtraction will not work if the two Y parts are different and at least one of them is negative.
20:00:57 <b_jonas> If you want to have a pair of numbers and special arithmetic on them, you could define such a type, and manipulate them in compile time in recent C++ or in future rust
20:01:38 <b_jonas> and of course you can always manipulate them in runtime in most languages
20:06:17 <zzo38> A notation like [x,y] can be used to define it (not the actual syntax in the programming language though); 0 means [1,1] but otherwise a literal x means [x,0]; [a,z]+[b,z] is [a+b,z]; [a,z]-[b,z] is [a-b,z]; [a,b]*[c,d] is [a*c,b+d]; [a,b]/[c,d] is [a/c,b-d]l in other cases of + and - you must first convert to a ordinary integer, and then convert back afterward. x-x is always [1,1].
20:06:36 <b_jonas> zzo38: if you want pairs of numbers where one number can vary in runtime but the other only in compile time, that's been done in C++ for various things including tracking units of measure at compile time, or tracking exponents for fixed point numbers, or tracking widths etc
20:06:58 <zzo38> If a/c rounds to zero in [a,b]/[c,d] then you also must convert to a integer, I suppose, to figure out the result
20:07:06 <zzo38> This is not a wheel; what is it called?
20:07:11 <b_jonas> you can also have pairs of numbers completely at compile time
20:08:23 <zzo38> (If the first component is a fraction rather than a integer, then division is always defined.)
20:34:35 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Tux1 * New user account
20:38:20 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63611&oldid=63575 * Tux1 * (+358)
20:52:02 <ski> zzo38 : so `Y = 0' is allowed ?
20:52:20 <ski> b_jonas : VLAs ?
20:52:30 <ski> zzo38 : "wheel" ?
20:54:02 <ski> b_jonas : reminds me of partially static, partially dynamic integers, where the remainder wrt some specific (static) modulus `m' is static, but the quotient is dynamic
20:54:04 <zzo38> ski: Yes, for ordinary nonzero numbers, it should be Y=0
20:54:45 <zzo38> ski: "Wheel" is described on Wikipedia, at "Wheel theory"
20:58:48 <ski> (see e.g. "Automatic Program Specialization for Interactive Media" (diss.) by Scott Draves at <http://draves.org/cmu-research/diss/main.html>, talking about how to automatically specialize a generic algorithm on e.g. RGB data to an efficient version that takes word bit size into account)
20:59:25 <kmc> C++17 constexpr is probably powerful enough that you could make a type that represents the bizarre form of integers zzo38 described
20:59:51 <ski> zzo38, mhm
21:00:21 <kmc> data ZZOInt = NormalInt Int | ZeroPower Nat?
21:00:41 <ski> zzo38 : hm, for some reason, your strange "base zero floating numbers" reminds be slightly of dual numbers
21:00:43 <kmc> . o O ( should we allow negative powers of zero? )
21:01:17 <ski> zzo38 : instead of "x-x is always [1,1]", it seems to be you want some equivalence relation ?
21:02:48 <zzo38> kmc: No; that is a sum type but what I meant means always both parts, so like: data ZZOInt = ZZOInt Int Int; (negative powers of zero are specifically allowed too)
21:03:07 <kmc> what does 0^x * 2^y mean
21:03:12 <kmc> also how about powers of 1
21:03:31 <kmc> I suppose you could have a y-dimensional array of x-dimensional arrays of a zst?
21:03:32 <zzo38> Powers of 1 are irrelevant. It is always x * 0^y.
21:04:34 <zzo38> So, 0^x * 2^y still works; if x is positive then the result is zero but it remembers the values of x and 2^y, so that if you divide by 0^x you will recover 2^y.
21:04:35 * ski . o ( rig `b^(|N)' (`b' a natural number), isomorphic to the naturals `|N', when `b > 1' )
21:05:11 * ski doesn't understand "then the result is zero but it remembers ..."
21:06:42 <zzo38> In terms of the components I mentioned, you will have [2^y,x]. If x is positive then it corresponds to the integer zero (but conversion to an integer will be lossy, since that forgets the original numbers), while if x is negative then it does not correspond to any integer, and if x is zero then it corresponds to the integer 2^y.
21:07:07 <b_jonas> aki: you know, it's like homeopathy. you dilute the solution until you underflow its concentration so it comes to contain zero of whatever was solved in, but it still remembers
21:08:01 <zzo38> Yes, it is like homeopathic numbers, I suppose.
21:08:19 <esowiki> [[Deadfish 2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63612&oldid=49595 * Tux1 * (-53) Replaced missing github link with personal interpreter link
21:12:19 -!- imode has joined.
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21:26:13 <b_jonas> `cat wisdom/XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR
21:26:17 <HackEso> XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR? ¯\(°_o)/¯
21:26:23 <b_jonas> how does this work? is there a special case in wisdom?
21:26:51 <zzo38> I don't know; I suppose you can look it up.
21:27:55 <b_jonas> whoa, wisdom looks strange now
21:28:48 <HackEso> XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR//Who told you this?
21:29:09 <b_jonas> bin/? lowercases its argument
21:29:26 <b_jonas> I don't really understand what it does
21:33:02 <esowiki> [[Celsee]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63613&oldid=63610 * FAKE1007 * (+7) /* Overview */
21:35:07 <b_jonas> USB is supposed to be stable for up to how long cable length? is 10 meters ok?
21:35:55 <b_jonas> I'm wondering if I could lead a USB extension cable from my computer to my bed so I can pause and resume movies with a keyboard in the bed
21:36:51 <b_jonas> though it's not quite clear where I could lead it that doesn't get into the way
21:37:07 <b_jonas> unless it goes all around everything
21:38:03 <zzo38> You could also try to add a IR receiver and put a program to assign the buttons on remote control to the keys, so that the pause button will work, and also whatever other buttons you need it to work; the ones you don't need, you can ignore.
21:38:51 <b_jonas> if it goes all around everything then it need like 10 meters of cable. the more reasonable way would be to just have it go to the left hand side of the desk, and from there go straight but I leave it there only when I want to use it, and roll it up otherwise so I don't trip over it
21:38:59 <b_jonas> that way it would be, let me see
21:39:09 <b_jonas> zzo38: or one of these modern bluetooth keyboards
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21:39:41 <b_jonas> the more straight way it would need about 6 meters
21:40:05 <b_jonas> a bluetooth keyboard would probably be more reasonable
22:06:42 <kmc> b_jonas: I have some 10 meter USB extensions that work great
22:06:48 <fizzie> I think 10 metres is probably okay.
22:07:03 <kmc> it's an active extension; it has some electronics in the female end
22:07:39 <fizzie> Apparently the USB FAQ says a passive cable can be 5 metres for full-speed devices, and 3 metres for low-speed ones.
22:07:55 <kmc> you can also get boxes that allow 100 meters or more, using Cat5/6 cable
22:08:07 <kmc> I'm not sure about speed but it would be enough for a keyboard certainly
22:08:16 <kmc> wireless keyboard would be the obvious solution though
22:08:20 <b_jonas> fizzie: I don't need full-speed for a keyboard
22:08:25 <kmc> in my experience, everything bluetooth is flaky af
22:08:34 <kmc> and you'll be better off with a keyboard that has a dedicated USB receiver dongle
22:08:52 <int-e> cute... "No innocent party ever does more than 2^64 of anything!"
22:09:09 <b_jonas> kmc: why is that so? can't they just standardize bluetooth so that it just works and you don't need separate dongles for everything?
22:09:12 <fizzie> I had a Microsoft Bluetooth keyboard, and it worked pretty well with my phone. But I think that's about the only good Bluetooth pairing.
22:09:28 <fizzie> (Not that I've tried many.)
22:09:30 <b_jonas> I don't want to use a bluetooth keyboard as primary really
22:09:31 <kmc> b_jonas: yes, and they kept adding complexity so that it could do everything, and now almost nobody can implement it right
22:09:44 <b_jonas> I might want to use a bluetooth mouse though, because for a mouse the cord does pose some mechanical problems in moving it
22:10:14 <zzo38> If you have a television set and computer machine and IR remote control with IMIDI, then you can use IMIDI, but I think none of them do.
22:10:24 <fizzie> The Bluetooth headphones we got at work have been pretty okay. I mean, as far as "work fine for 1-3 flights to MTV a year" goes.
22:10:26 <b_jonas> I don't want a television set
22:10:56 <kmc> I have a full-ish size wireless keyboard/trackpad combo that I use for my HTPC, and a miniature one that I use for digital stuff with ham radio out in the field
22:11:06 <kmc> honestly the former might be better with a mini keyboard too
22:11:12 <fizzie> For your use case, you could probably use a portable computing device that can speak wifi as well.
22:11:29 <kmc> oh to control the HTPC? sure
22:11:33 <kmc> I control mine over VNC sometimes
22:11:35 <zzo38> You would still have a display for the computer, even if it isn't a television set
22:11:51 <kmc> and the ham radio box (raspberry pi based) is also controlled from vnc, if i don't have my laptop with me I use my phone
22:11:58 <kmc> but the hardware keyboard is nicer for typing of course
22:12:22 <b_jonas> currently I have problems with bluetooth, but I'm pretty sure that's because my current mobile phone has a buggy bluetooth implementation
22:12:29 <kmc> b_jonas: see above
22:12:52 <b_jonas> kmc: but I think that's a case of "all phones suck" rather than a case of "bluetooth always sucks"
22:13:04 <kmc> well bluetooth in practice sucks
22:13:19 <kmc> if the vast majority of implementations are buggy then it calls the whole design into question, no?
22:13:19 <b_jonas> but phones also suck sadly
22:13:24 <kmc> ayway i don't really care
22:13:26 <b_jonas> I'll re-evaluate that position in about a year
22:13:30 <fizzie> I had one of these https://www.amazon.com/Microsoft-U6R-00001-Wedge-Mobile-Keyboard/dp/B008OEHPKM and it didn't suck with the less-than-three Android devices I habitually used it with.
22:13:40 <b_jonas> I gave up for some time because I don't want to spend all my free time looking for a good phone
22:13:43 <kmc> today is ARRL Field Day so I could be in a field somewhere making ham radio contacts but I decided to stay home and take acid instead
22:14:00 <fizzie> (After some batteries leaked into it, it started sucking pretty badly, but that's hardly the fault of Bluetooth.)
22:14:31 <kmc> but I did build a spiffy solar chargable battery box for next time https://imgur.com/a/DzmexuZ
22:15:00 <kmc> yes, I can plug a solar panel into it
22:15:31 <kmc> because it's fun to use radios out in the park or the desert or somewhere there isn't AC power
22:15:36 <kmc> and useful in disasters as well
22:15:46 <kmc> I can also charge my phone, run LED lights, etc
22:15:47 <b_jonas> do you want to take a long journey to somewhere far from civilization where you can't find electric network and want to travel lightweight?
22:16:05 <kmc> well this isn't very lightweight
22:16:09 <kmc> since it has a big lead acid battery in it
22:16:13 <b_jonas> out in the park sure, but you can just carry enough batteries that they last all day
22:16:27 <kmc> it's the principle of the thing!
22:16:40 <kmc> in an emergency, power may not be available for days or weeks
22:16:54 <b_jonas> well for me, I don't like being far from cities for a long time anyway, regardless of baterries
22:17:02 <kmc> whereas I love camping
22:17:05 <b_jonas> I want to be able to access other services too, not just the electric grid
22:17:10 <kmc> and have gone out to the middle of nowhere desert for fun many times
22:17:48 <b_jonas> camping is fine, but in a place where there's a bathroom and showers and electric outlets, and a town within two hours of distance
22:17:53 <kmc> also renewable energy is just cool
22:17:56 <kmc> not depending on the grid
22:18:36 <b_jonas> if there's no town, where would I buy fresh vegetables to eat?
22:18:47 <kmc> with this box and a solar panel and a shoulder bag of radio stuff, I can set up anywhere and talk to people around the world with no infrastructure in between us
22:19:07 <kmc> if you don't see why that's cool then whatever, it's not everyone's cup of tea :)
22:19:54 <kmc> fresh vegetables are pretty good
22:20:41 <kmc> the longest i've been away from civilization was 12 days
22:21:32 <kmc> and i was at a festival for the middle 4, about 800 people camping in the woods
22:21:46 <kmc> so a kind of civilization
22:21:51 <kmc> a very friendly kind
22:22:06 <b_jonas> that helps, that means if you're in trouble you can ask other people to help
22:22:17 <kmc> also we went through towns and stuff
22:22:22 <kmc> I guess it wasn't really away from civilization
22:22:34 <kmc> but we were camping and I didn't get on the Internet or use any motorized transportation for 12 days
22:22:45 <kmc> I made one phone call about a train that I didn't end up taking
22:23:03 <kmc> actually I bricked my smartphone on day 1 so I had to use my wife's phone for that
22:23:06 <b_jonas> I would ask what the longest time is that you've been in places without mobile phone coverage, but you're not that young
22:23:28 <b_jonas> oh, I do the no internet thing on vacations usually
22:23:55 <b_jonas> but I'm still in a city and could get on the internet should I need to, and I make phone calls or send SMSes
22:24:13 <b_jonas> to tell my family that I'm ok, because they'd worry otherwise
22:24:20 <b_jonas> and I take photos and stuff
22:25:38 <b_jonas> with a digital camera, to be clear
22:26:20 <b_jonas> only since about 2008, I've done skiing vactions before that, when I didn't yet have access to a digital camera, and I didn't bring a chemical one
22:26:36 <b_jonas> but I did already have a mobile phone then
22:26:48 <b_jonas> plus were with other people who have a mobile phone too
22:27:06 <b_jonas> now mind you, during skiing, you're still often in places on the mountain with no mobile phone coverage
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22:39:06 <kmc> when i go on hikes with my wife we bring our ham radios to stay in contact
22:39:12 <kmc> it's very useful
22:39:30 <b_jonas> stay in contact with each other, or with other people?
22:39:32 <kmc> the handheld ones function like walkie-talkies, but with a bit better performance and the possibility to do other things besides point-to-point
22:39:40 <kmc> with each other, plus whoever else might be nearby
22:39:51 <kmc> if there's an emergency i could call for help on one of the local repeaters
22:39:55 <kmc> i always program them in before I go
22:40:22 <b_jonas> though you can want contact outside of emergencies too
22:40:36 <kmc> but for that we do simplex (no rpeater)
22:40:58 <kmc> because it's a bit rude to monopolize some ham club's repeater for your hiking trip that is of no interest to anyone else
22:41:21 <kmc> this is one of the limitations of analog voice radio
22:41:30 <b_jonas> me, these days I take a mobile phone, a spare mobile phone, and various forms of money that I could use to buy mobile phones and cards or phone boothe or internet cafe fees or other forms of communication
22:41:30 <kmc> each repeater can support a single conversation at once
22:42:33 <kmc> in the old days several businesses would share a repeater by transmitting different subaudible tones, which would cue the receiving radio
22:42:36 <b_jonas> I only started carrying a spare mobile phone one and a half years ago. I'm paranoid.
22:42:46 <kmc> (the first implementations of the tone generation/detection were electromechanical!)
22:43:08 <kmc> this means you wouldn't hear the other guy's conversations, but you could still only have one conversation at a time
22:43:57 <kmc> then trunking systems were developed, which have a digital control channel that dynamically allocates users among a set of analog voice channels
22:44:42 <b_jonas> are there multiplexers that work by rapid shot time slices synchronized between pairs of parties, like there used to be in old telephone line equipment twentyfive years ago?
22:44:44 <kmc> and then you have the modern systems where everything's digital and encrypted (aside from hams) and linked over the Internet etc
22:44:52 <b_jonas> or thirty years ago or something
22:45:03 <b_jonas> not in the endpoint telephones, but in telephone exchanges
22:45:18 <kmc> b_jonas: for digital yes
22:45:35 <b_jonas> for telephones, this existed without digital technology
22:45:41 <kmc> for example DMR and P25 have alternating time slots which transmit audio packets
22:45:44 <kmc> that is cool
22:45:46 <kmc> do you have links about that?
22:45:47 <b_jonas> by time-slicing analog voice signals
22:45:54 <kmc> I know of frequency-division multiplexing for analog phone signals
22:45:55 <b_jonas> I don't sadly... let me try to google it
22:46:09 <kmc> but not time-division
22:46:11 <b_jonas> and I could be misinformed, I'm not the electric engineer here
22:46:18 <kmc> seems like it would produce a lot of annoying artifacts
22:46:27 <kmc> especially with primitive, electromechanical equipment
22:46:45 <b_jonas> I didn't say it has to be electromechanical
22:46:58 <b_jonas> they already had transistors and integrated circuits
22:47:22 <kmc> i was thinking earlier
22:47:29 <kmc> I think that FDMA was the earliest way to do this
22:47:48 <kmc> because it's relatively easy to shift a signal up or down by an arbitrary frequency using only analog parts
22:48:01 <kmc> vacuum tubes, even
22:48:55 <b_jonas> it's possible that I misunderstand this and it actually involves taking digital samples
22:49:26 <kmc> and a voice call occupies a small bandwidth relative to the usable bandwidth on a decent quality phone line
22:49:46 <b_jonas> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time-division_multiplexing#Multiplexed_digital_transmission mentions only digital
22:50:59 <b_jonas> yeah, that article says I was mistaken
22:51:07 <b_jonas> it was digital, but pretty early:
22:51:36 <b_jonas> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time-division_multiplexing#History
23:18:02 <kmc> 15:23 < b_jonas> I would ask what the longest time is that you've been in places without mobile phone coverage, but you're not that young
23:18:13 <kmc> well supposing we start at the year 2000
23:18:19 <kmc> then I think it would have been burning man in 2008
23:18:24 <kmc> for a week or 8 days or so
23:18:53 <kmc> (though i've gone longer without access to a phone personally, either because mine broke or because I was in countries where I couldn't / didn't want to roam and didn't have a SIM, etc)
23:19:14 <kmc> there is LTE on the playa now (one of many things contributing to Burning Man totally jumping the shark) but wasn't back then
23:19:52 <kmc> I think they had a wifi mesh with some sort of backhaul. it is close enough to Gerlach that you could do a wifi backhaul using consumer gear
23:20:07 <kmc> (and perfect line of sight, since it's on a dry lake bed and Gerlach is on the shore of that lake)
23:20:30 <kmc> anyway they had wifi on some experimental basis but i didn't use it
23:20:32 <kmc> and of course they had
23:20:45 <kmc> but I wasn't licensed then and wasn't particularly interested
23:22:38 <kmc> 15:40 < kmc> because it's a bit rude to monopolize some ham club's repeater for your hiking trip that is of no interest to anyone else
23:22:42 <kmc> ^ right, so I was going to mention
23:22:50 <kmc> the other thing I can do with this battery box + some other equipment I have
23:23:05 <kmc> is set up a temporary repeater for myself and my friends
23:23:39 <kmc> analog FM voice repeater
23:23:49 <kmc> so it will receive on (for example) 146.430 MHz
23:23:58 <kmc> and simultaneously retransmit what it hears on 445.430 MHz
23:24:40 <kmc> so that provides communication between handheld radios in the area which might otherwise not be able to talk to each other
23:24:46 <kmc> especially if the repeater is in a good location
23:24:53 <b_jonas> and you can set that up and still have enough equipment for a device that can send to that and one that can receive from that?
23:25:07 <kmc> I have a bunch of radios...
23:25:10 <kmc> I might have a problem
23:25:24 <b_jonas> no, you can't have too much electronics
23:25:29 <kmc> "once you get locked into a serious radio collection, the tendency is to push it as far as you can"
23:25:39 <b_jonas> they always break down or happen to not work for what you want, so you want a lot of them
23:25:54 <b_jonas> or you unexpectedly need more than you thought
23:26:15 <kmc> I have a bunch of those Baofeng radios, $30 handheld radio from China that's a bit crap but basically works
23:26:26 <kmc> there was talk that the FCC would ban them so I impulse bought 3
23:27:31 <kmc> the main problem is that they are purchased by people with no ham license or knowledge, and they also allow transmitting outside the ham bands, so clueless users just program in whatever frequencies they pull out of their ass and end up interfering with business, public safety, whatever else
23:27:57 <kmc> there are few restrictions on selling equipment to hams, but when you start marketing something to the general public then the FCC gets much more interested
23:28:05 <kmc> and the claim is that they are doing that
23:28:20 <kmc> somewhat similar situation has existed for a long time on CB
23:28:45 <b_jonas> unrelated: a few days ago I ordered a nice book about geometry that I think will be a good complement to the three references that I already have on my shelf. it will arrive some time next month, the hard part will be understanding it of course, but I'm sure I'll learn a lot from it.
23:29:02 <kmc> CB radio is limited by law to just 4 watts AM (12 watts SSB), however you can buy radios that claim to be for the 10 meter ham band but are clearly meant to be modified and used on CB illegally, at 100W or more
23:29:09 <kmc> whic book?
23:30:10 <b_jonas> the book is Jürgen Richter-Gebert, "Perspectives on Projective Geometry"
23:30:56 <b_jonas> kmc: yes, that happens for wifi too, there are wifi transmitters sold that can be easily unlocked to transmit with a power higher than they're allowed in equipment sold
23:31:35 <fizzie> This is a book I wouldn't necessarily get just because, but it's one that has what I think is a lovely name: https://www.amazon.co.uk/generatingfunctionology-Third-Herbert-S-Wilf/dp/1568812795
23:31:48 <fizzie> We had it as the textbook on a course way back when.
23:32:31 <b_jonas> fizzie: do you have a copy of Concrete Mathematics yet? just wondering
23:33:09 <fizzie> I don't have many reference works here. But we did have that as a textbook as well.
23:33:26 <fizzie> I pruned down the bookshelf a lot when relocating FI-UK. This is a smaller flat.
23:33:53 <fizzie> In Concrete Mathematics, I like how the cover is made to look like a block of concrete.
23:34:09 <b_jonas> fizzie: not in the translated copy that I have
23:34:21 <b_jonas> the cover is yellow and not like any kind of concrete
23:34:36 <fizzie> Aw. The one I've seen looks like the Amazon picture, https://www.amazon.co.uk/Concrete-Mathematics-Foundation-Computer-Science/dp/0201558025
23:34:37 <b_jonas> not uniform yellow, has a pattern, but that pattern isn't like what you see in concrete
23:35:05 <b_jonas> well it's hard to tell from such a photo whether it looks like concrete
23:35:18 <b_jonas> you'd have to see how light shines on it and how it changes color when it becomes wet
23:35:26 <b_jonas> neither of which you can do on a photo
23:35:28 <fizzie> It doesn't look *that* much like concrete.
23:35:54 <fizzie> I think I kept TAOCP, and that Schneier's three-book set, and the Prolog book, and SICP. And a few others.
23:37:27 <b_jonas> I have an ebook copy of TAOCP volumes 1, 2, 3, 4 now, and gave away my old translated volumes 1, 2, 3.
23:37:36 <b_jonas> what Scheier's three-book set?
23:38:29 <fizzie> It's just a box of three of his books.
23:38:56 <b_jonas> I have Concrete Mathematics but it's currently lent to my father so it's not on the shelf next to me; I have three geometry reference books, the Cormen, Leiserson, Rivest, Stein algorithms book,
23:39:01 <fizzie> I think probably Applied Cryptography, Secrets & Lies, and one more, maybe Practical Cryptography.
23:39:08 <fizzie> Oh, I did keep the CLRS as well.
23:39:40 <fizzie> And Tanenbaum's OS book.
23:39:45 <b_jonas> the Lovász exercises in graph theory book in translation, Hajnal's introductory graph tehory book, the Rónyai-Ivanyos-Szabó algorithms textbook though that's not really useful,
23:40:09 <b_jonas> the Erdős, Surányi introd number theory book
23:40:36 <b_jonas> and that's about all that could count as maths reference books I think (the TAOCP included)
23:40:54 <b_jonas> I also have Warren's Hacker's Delight second edition
23:41:03 <fizzie> The only actual maths book I have is the generic Kreyszig's Advanced Engineering Mathematics, 8th edition.
23:41:19 <b_jonas> I have some more maths books here, but I don't count them as reference books
23:41:27 <b_jonas> like there's a few of Smullyan's books
23:41:42 <b_jonas> all three pop science books by Rényi Alfréd
23:42:00 <fizzie> I've also got three machine learning books that have some amount of math in them, but I wouldn't exactly count them as maths books.
23:43:56 <b_jonas> oh, I also have digital copies of the ed. Iványi algorithms book that are freely available as a download from the internet
23:44:06 <b_jonas> I don't have a physical copy of any of the volumes
23:44:44 <fizzie> Looks like there's also one DSP book, that's probably relatively mathy.
23:45:51 <fizzie> I think we culled about one half to two thirds of all books we had, and it wasn't particularly easy.
23:46:52 <b_jonas> fizzie: yeah, this is why I am now afraid to buy new books
23:47:00 <b_jonas> because even if I could fit them here, what will I do when I move?
23:47:05 <fizzie> If you need a copy of my thesis, and are okay with picking it up in London, I think I'd be happy to donate one -- I think I've got something like 10-20 copies, and there's absolutely no use for them.
23:52:10 <b_jonas> fizzie: don't you have electronic copies on the internet?
23:52:25 <fizzie> Yes, it's available there as well.
23:53:06 <b_jonas> I don't know what your thesis is about so I can't tell if I want one or not
23:53:12 <fizzie> If you just get the PDF, you don't get a cheaply bound paperback copy where rubbing the cover the wrong way around leaves streaks in it.
23:53:22 <b_jonas> I will be in London some time near 2019-07-28 though
23:53:34 <fizzie> https://aaltodoc.aalto.fi/handle/123456789/19777
23:53:58 <b_jonas> though for only a short time so I might not want to fit picking up a thesis into it
23:54:45 <fizzie> Fair enough, I might actually be in MTV around that time as well.
23:56:57 <fizzie> I don't know if there's enough US-CA #esoteric people to warrant organizing something. I do have a free weekend though.
00:02:18 <b_jonas> maybe we should organize something here in Europe instead
00:03:04 <esowiki> [[Deadfish 2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63614&oldid=63612 * Tux1 * (+8)
00:19:18 <esowiki> [[Deadfish 3]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=63615 * A * (+1257) Created page with "[[Deadfish 3]] is a superset of [[Deadfish 2]]. As well as an accumulator, [[Deadfish 3]] has a string which can be set using the input command. == Commands == [[Deadfish 3]]..."
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00:48:26 <kmc> b_jonas: here is the complete repeater setup: https://imgur.com/a/dFi9fZK
00:51:05 <kmc> it's working as shown in those photos, however in actual use you'd want to position things differently, have the panel angled for maximum sunlight and the antenna as high as possible, and protect the electronics from rain
01:01:45 <zzo38> How to configure vim to not use a alternate screen buffer in ex mode?
01:02:18 <b_jonas> zzo38: dunno, ask #rubik or #vim
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01:05:45 <kmc> b_jonas: also that size of panel might not be necessary, depending on sunlight availability and how much people are using the repeater etc
01:07:43 <kmc> btw here are the insides of the battery box https://i.imgur.com/CJRWf5P.jpg
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01:13:12 <ski> fizzie : ooc, which Prolog book ?
01:20:28 <fizzie> ski: https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/art-prolog-second-edition this one.
01:27:27 <ski> ok, Sterling & Shapiro
01:27:58 <zzo38> I read about a new variant rule for playing mahjong, which is "yami" rule. You are allowed to discard face down at the cost of 1000 points. If you do, opponent can try to force you to face up for 2000 points, but then, you can either make it face up or you can force it to remain unseen for a further cost of 4000 points. Even if this 4000 points payment is made though, an opponent is still allowed to call ron, and if it works, it is worth double.
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06:18:15 <esowiki> [[Eodermdrome]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63616&oldid=62656 * Salpynx * (+487) /* Example programs */ Proposal: Hypercube nets as a 'popular' program form for graph rewriting esolangs!
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10:54:06 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx/Sator Resatus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63617&oldid=63592 * Salpynx * (+11) /* Completely false etymology of "Halmos" */
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11:46:55 <b_jonas> `? fundamental theorem of taneb
11:46:56 <HackEso> The Fundamental Theorem of Taneb states that for all strings S, if S describes a thing not involving sex, then it is provable that Taneb invented the thing described by S; and, furthermore, that it is provable that there exists a string T that describes a thing not involving sex that Taneb did not invent.
11:46:57 <HackEso> It is rumoured that Taneb invented civilization, but this is false. It was actually invented by Sid Meier, who also invented cities.
11:47:16 <b_jonas> Therefore cities must involve sex.
11:48:36 <HackEso> rm: cannot remove "wisdom/Bézout's theorem": No such file or directory
12:11:24 <HackEso> rm: cannot remove 'wisdom/apostrophe': No such file or directory
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13:26:28 <esowiki> [[Ruined BASIC]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=63618 * A * (+1481) Created page with "[[Ruined BASIC]] is an overly simplified BASIC dialect so that it is not friendly to beginners. == Documentation == <pre> rem end: Stop the program rem rem: Comments rem Examp..."
13:29:35 <esowiki> [[Ruined BASIC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63619&oldid=63618 * A * (+170) /* Computational class */
13:45:20 <esowiki> [[Ruined BASIC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63620&oldid=63619 * A * (-14) /* Documentation */
13:47:08 <esowiki> [[Ruined BASIC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63621&oldid=63620 * A * (+81)
13:48:08 <esowiki> [[Ruined BASIC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63622&oldid=63621 * A * (-13) /* Documentation */
13:54:25 <esowiki> [[Ruined BASIC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63623&oldid=63622 * A * (+221)
13:59:31 <esowiki> [[Ruined BASIC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63624&oldid=63623 * A * (+51)
14:02:06 <esowiki> [[Ruined BASIC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63625&oldid=63624 * A * (+57)
14:08:30 <esowiki> [[Ruined BASIC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63626&oldid=63625 * A * (-128)
14:24:25 <esowiki> [[Ruined BASIC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63627&oldid=63626 * A * (-1)
14:26:59 <esowiki> [[Ruined BASIC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63628&oldid=63627 * A * (-26)
14:31:33 <esowiki> [[Ruined BASIC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63629&oldid=63628 * A * (+221)
14:32:05 <esowiki> [[Ruined BASIC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63630&oldid=63629 * A * (-17) /* Documentation */ Ruin the syntax even more
14:35:02 <esowiki> [[Ruined BASIC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63631&oldid=63630 * A * (-42)
14:48:34 <esowiki> [[Ruined BASIC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63632&oldid=63631 * A * (-108)
14:50:39 <esowiki> [[Ruined BASIC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63633&oldid=63632 * A * (+60)
14:53:47 <esowiki> [[Ruined BASIC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63634&oldid=63633 * A * (-487)
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15:26:01 <HackEso> bash: -c: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `(' \ bash: -c: line 0: `python3 -cprint(4**4)'
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16:02:07 <esowiki> [[Rook]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63635&oldid=63594 * Areallycoolusername * (+11)
16:07:57 <esowiki> [[Talk:Rook]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63636&oldid=63598 * Areallycoolusername * (+1163)
16:09:11 <esowiki> [[Talk:Rook]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63637&oldid=63636 * Areallycoolusername * (+28)
16:10:37 <esowiki> [[Rook]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63638&oldid=63635 * Areallycoolusername * (+17)
16:11:14 <zzo38> Did you see my latest story of GURPS game? See if it is good, if you find any mistake, suggestion, etc http://zzo38computer.org/gurpsgame/1.ui/wiki?name=Session+22
16:11:18 <esowiki> [[User:Areallycoolusername]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63639&oldid=61342 * Areallycoolusername * (+11) /* Full List of languages I Made */
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16:23:34 <zzo38> I wrote on a paper many made up world cards for Magic: the Gathering, not all are global enchantments, there are other types too. I also put in "when this dies" triggers for most of them.
16:29:19 <zzo38> Wall of the Worlds {3} World Creature - Wall (0/*) ;; Defender ;; ~'s toughness is 1 plus the number of world cards in all graveyards. ;; When ~ dies, add {2} and gain 1 life.
16:43:08 <b_jonas> zzo38: is there a world serpent that encircles the world ocean?
16:44:52 <zzo38> I did not write such a card, but maybe you will.
16:57:47 <b_jonas> dear BBC Norwegian Village, if you're reading the logs, you should know that you have now created significantly more language pages on the wiki than Ais523. you can stop competing now, he won't overtake you back.
18:08:56 <b_jonas> ``` swipl -qt 'T is 4^4, display(T), nl'
18:12:55 <fizzie> `forth : pow 1 -rot 0 ?do tuck * swap loop drop ; 4 4 pow .
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18:17:27 <b_jonas> HackEso doesn't have haskell or rust implementations
18:20:07 <fizzie> No. I'm thinking lambdabot takes care of all the Haskell needs, and maybe rust isn't *that* well suited for IRC oneliners. I'm happy to install Debian 'main' packages of small to moderate size on it though.
18:20:15 <HackEso> 1177:2012-12-17 <shachäf> mv zalgo bin/ \ 990:2012-12-09 <shachäf> ghc -hide-package base -package haskell98 zalgo.hs \ 989:2012-12-09 <ellioẗt> rm zalgo \ 988:2012-12-09 <shachäf> ghc -hide-package base -package haskell98 zalgo.hs -o zalgo
18:20:24 <b_jonas> fizzie: I'm not saying it must have it or anything
18:20:27 <HackEso> 2418:2013-03-12 <ellioẗt> revert 2416 \ 2417:2013-03-12 <Sgëo> revert 2243 \ 2369:2013-03-04 <AnotherTes̈t> rm zalgo.hs \ 986:2012-12-09 <shachäf> sed -i s/System\.// zalgo.hs \ 985:2012-12-09 <shachäf> sed -i s/R/System.R/ zalgo.hs \ 675:2012-08-28 <shachäf> (unknown command)
18:20:28 <b_jonas> I know you can't have everything installed
18:20:34 <b_jonas> HackEso already has a lot of nice toys
18:20:43 <b_jonas> > 4^4 -- let's try that though
18:20:52 <shachaf> <shachäf> (unknown command)
18:21:30 <shachaf> `` doag | grep '> (unknown command)'
18:21:33 <HackEso> 966:2012-12-09 <oerjän> (unknown command) \ 964:2012-12-09 <oerjän> (unknown command) \ 821:2012-11-02 <olsnër> (unknown command) \ 818:2012-11-02 <Gregör> (unknown command) \ 816:2012-11-02 <Gregör> (unknown command) \ 675:2012-08-28 <shachäf> (unknown command) \ 562:2012-06-22 <oerjän> (unknown command) \ 552:2012-06-15 <ellioẗt> (unknown command) \ 549:2012-06-15 <ellioẗt> (unknown command) \ 542:2012-06-15 <quintopïa> (unknown comma
18:22:58 <fizzie> That rings a faint bell, but no, I can't remember the details.
18:23:41 <HackEso> 11838:2019-06-23 <b_jonäs> forget b\xc3\xa9zout\'s theorem \ 11837:2019-06-17 <b_jonäs> `` perl -pi -e\'s/Bond\\K/, Queen Elizabeth the first/\' wisdom/p*aneb* \ 11836:2019-06-13 <b_jonäs> `` echo $IRC_NICK >> bin/flist \ 11835:2019-06-13 <b_jonäs> `` rm bin/wrlist \ 11834:2019-06-13 <b_jonäs> learn FireFly was a short-running but well-loved sci-fi TV series released in 2003, starring Nathan Fillion and directed and written by Joss Whedon. It\'s
18:23:44 <HackEso> cat: 'bin/(unknown': No such file or directory
18:25:46 <fizzie> Spot-checking one of those, it's <elliott> `addquote <shachaf> U+2205 [∅] NO LETTER O ALLOWED that's turned into "(unknown command)".
18:25:56 <fizzie> Maybe there was a character set issue.
18:27:04 <shachaf> Seems consistent with zalgo.hs.
18:28:09 <b_jonas> ``` echo $IRC_MESSAGE # cheating quine
18:28:10 <HackEso> ``` echo $IRC_MESSAGE # cheating quine
18:28:30 <fizzie> I think it would be quite possible to reconstruct many of those (unknown command)s from the logs, but that'd be quite a history-editing operation.
18:56:15 <zzo38> Did you review my rdf-intfic specification? Maybe you have some idea of what the HTML-specific properties and capability sets would be.
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19:39:49 <zzo38> Another world card I made up is this: Electrical Accumulation {2R} World Enchantment ;; Level up {RRR} ;; When ~ dies, it deals X damage to target damageable, where X is the number of level counters on ~.
19:40:10 <zzo38> (Some of the details maybe should be altered)
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20:41:49 <b_jonas> when the Super Metroid TAS does the baby skip, it doesn't bother jumping over the baby metroid even once. it's humiliating.
20:42:26 <b_jonas> and of course it makes the skip look totally effortless too.
20:48:25 <zzo38> Will you comment the cards I wrote and/or to try to make up your own world cards too?
20:50:02 <b_jonas> are they in your textfiles (gopher or http), or only in that other place that you put them?
20:50:49 <b_jonas> http://zzo38computer.org/mtg/
20:51:45 <b_jonas> on IRC this time? I think I saw two
20:51:54 <zzo38> Yes, there are two.
20:52:04 <b_jonas> Wall of the Worlds and Electrical Accumulation
20:52:08 <b_jonas> oh ok, I thought there were more
20:52:43 <zzo38> Yes, that is all I put. I did write more on a paper, but didn't put them into the computer
20:58:14 <b_jonas> Wall of the Worlds doesn't seem too interesting to me. Electrical Accumulation looks like it might be better if it used charge counters or some specific counters rather than level counters.
20:59:22 <zzo38> OK; do you have other ideas?
20:59:55 <b_jonas> it is interesting though. I wonder if there's a plain artifact card similar to it, with only colorless mana cost.
21:00:23 <b_jonas> if there is, it's bound to be an old one
21:01:17 <zzo38> There might be, although probably not a world card. As far as I know, none of the official world cards (all of which are old) have death triggers, and also all of them are global enchantments
21:01:35 <HackEso> Magma Mine \ 1 \ Artifact \ {4}: Put a pressure counter on Magma Mine. \ {T}, Sacrifice Magma Mine: It deals damage equal to the number of pressure counters on it to any target. \ VI-U
21:02:04 <b_jonas> why does it have to be a world card?
21:02:09 <zzo38> Yes, that is similar
21:02:42 <zzo38> The world card will die from state-based-actions once another world card is played. If you have a lot of world cards, you can trigger them in this way.
21:04:11 <zzo38> (of course, Disenchant will also trigger it.)
21:05:12 <b_jonas> oh right, that's its only built-in way to kill
21:05:27 <b_jonas> so you need a clean effect to sacrifice it, or another world card
21:05:49 <b_jonas> I wonder if there's also something like Magma Mine but that gains a charge counter every turn rather than for mana
21:06:03 <zzo38> Yes, there are a few ways to do it, but you will need another card whichever way you do it.
21:06:11 <b_jonas> or gains a charge counter for a {T} ability and also requires {T} in the sacrifice effect
21:06:57 <b_jonas> zzo38: in that case making it an Enchantment actually makes it play better than making it an artifact
21:07:11 <b_jonas> because you can use global enchantment destroy effects to break it
21:08:07 <b_jonas> although in a red deck that's not so helpful
21:08:33 <b_jonas> but I don't see how it could be white or green
21:12:13 <zzo38> You can play multicolors deck
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21:15:28 <zzo38> I don't see either white or green, but other cards that have a similar idea (world cards with death triggers, and maybe enter battlefield triggers too) can be used with other colors; I have done a few like that
21:15:36 <zzo38> And maybe you have some idea to make such thing too
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21:22:19 <b_jonas> I see the "world" part as a mostly irrelevant bonus, but even with that, it's a good idea to have this as an enchantment that acts when it's destroyed. There are a few such enchantments, but not many, and that's no wonder, because it requires a somewhat narrow strategy.
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21:24:18 <b_jonas> Some of my white or green decks naturally don't have any enchantments, in which case I add mandatory or global enchantment destruction, like Cleanfall or Monk Realist. An enchantment like this could go to such a deck.
21:25:17 <b_jonas> That said, I think it's a bit expensive.
21:25:36 <b_jonas> But it's the sort of dangerous card that you don't want to cast too aggressively, because someone will find a way to break it.
21:26:04 <b_jonas> And the {RRR} cost makes it hard to play in multicolor decks
21:26:33 <b_jonas> even the ones that want to generate a lot of mana
21:55:40 <zzo38> Yes, I did say, maybe the costs should be altered
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22:52:20 <esowiki> [[Celsee]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63640&oldid=63613 * FAKE1007 * (-400) Major change
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23:20:35 <esowiki> [[Celsee]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63641&oldid=63640 * FAKE1007 * (+2) /* Hello, world! */
23:27:35 <esowiki> [[Celsee]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63642&oldid=63641 * FAKE1007 * (-14) /* Instructions */
23:27:53 <esowiki> [[Celsee]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63643&oldid=63642 * FAKE1007 * (+6) /* In-Depth */
23:39:23 <esowiki> [[Celsee]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63644&oldid=63643 * FAKE1007 * (-44) /* Where can I find the compiler? */
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00:08:58 <zzo38> I am still writing a NNTP client program. (Unlike the other programs, this one uses a SQLite database, and uses a line-oriented interface.)
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02:02:39 <esowiki> [[Ruined BASIC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63645&oldid=63634 * A * (-27)
02:10:50 <esowiki> [[Ruined BASIC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63646&oldid=63645 * A * (+10) /* Documentation */
02:17:46 <esowiki> [[Ruined BASIC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63647&oldid=63646 * A * (+71) /* Documentation */
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03:10:40 <zzo38> How many seconds will it take to put on or remove a cloak? I should think that Ziveruskex and Strixan will not be able to fly while wearing a cloak, because it will get in the way of your wings.
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03:39:19 <zzo38> For the Electrical Accumulation card, now I think hybrid mana would also be possible to do, such as {(2/R)(2/R)}, or Phyrexian mana, or whatever else it might be. There are some other possibilities too
03:39:30 <zzo38> OriginalOldMan: Sometimes there is discussion of BF-Joust on here
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10:49:58 <wob_jonas> zzo38: re how long it takes to put on clothing, that's among those crazy rules that I think very few people understand. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm#gettingIntoAndOutOfArmor mentinos armor and shield but not boots or gloves or cloaks or shirt etc.
10:55:34 <wob_jonas> I think there are rules somewhere, but they're well-hidden. If you don't find them, then presumably the DM makes up rules.
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12:01:30 <esowiki> [[Eodermdrome]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63648&oldid=63616 * Salpynx * (+1) /* 4-cube */ punctuation
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16:27:26 <zzo38> I am playing GURPS and not Dungeons&Dragons, although I would want to just try to figure out how long it takes and use that
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17:15:06 <esowiki> [[Celsee]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63649&oldid=63644 * FAKE1007 * (+126)
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23:55:07 <HackEso> 1/2:125) <oklopol> pigeons are very smart. all the known ways to show a language is not regular are based on pigeons. \ 571) <Phantom_Hoover> You know what annoys me about Deep Space 9. <Phantom_Hoover> It wasn't in deep space. <Phantom_Hoover> It was orbiting Bajor. \ 22) PA ET ANNET UNIVERSET DER DE ENESTE PERSONEN OERJAN: <oerjan> sa jeg kan bare konkludere med at det er feil, eller er verden helt bonkers \ 361) <oerjan> adding quotes by yourself is
23:55:10 <HackEso> 2/2:strictly prohibited and will lead to you being banned \ 1074) <+kmc> my girlfriend served as an adult control subject for some behavioral research on children [...] <+kmc> she did live on psych studies for a year yeah <Jafet> Is there a control protocol where you don't use people who live off being sociology test subjects
23:56:22 <oerjan> finished archive binging, now i just need to catch up to everything else
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00:06:43 <shachaf> int-e: Anyway isn't intelligence just optimization or something?
00:07:32 <int-e> s/optimization/rationalization/
00:12:22 <int-e> I don't know. I suspect "intelligence" is largely a phenomological concept. So we have various signs of intelligence... solving problems of various degrees of complexity.
00:12:43 <int-e> Learning from failure, stuff like that.
00:13:28 <int-e> Going to bed before the sun rises.
00:13:37 <lambdabot> Local time for int-e is Tue Jun 25 02:13:37 2019
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00:25:53 <HackEso> 1/1:smdh//SMDH is short for "Send My Daughter Home". \ québec//Attache ta tuque avec d'la broche; y fait frette icitte! \ jerk//Jerk is the integral of snap. \ ic//ic what you did there. \ lettuce//Lettuce is a vegetable with two dressings, join and meet.
00:26:07 <HackEso> 11543:2018-05-04 <int-̈e> learn SMDH is short for "Send My Daughter Home".
00:26:29 <HackEso> smdh//SMDH is short fors "Send My Daughter Home".
00:26:45 <HackEso> smdh//SMDH is short for "Send My Daughters Home".
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01:16:37 <esowiki> [[Dynamic Contraction System]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=63650 * A * (+543) Created page with "[[Dynamic Contraction System]] is a system for golfing programming languages that are not specifically built for golfing in == System Description == In order to help people go..."
01:23:10 <esowiki> [[Dynamic Contraction System]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63651&oldid=63650 * A * (+668) Put everything in my mind into this page. I will extend this later.
01:26:57 <esowiki> [[Dynamic Contraction System]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63652&oldid=63651 * A * (+494) Finally
01:34:49 <esowiki> [[Dynamic Contraction System]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63653&oldid=63652 * A * (+805)
01:42:43 <esowiki> [[Dynamic Contraction System]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63654&oldid=63653 * A * (+131)
01:56:10 <esowiki> [[Dynamic Contraction System]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63655&oldid=63654 * A * (+554) Reference
01:59:11 <esowiki> [[Dynamic Contraction System]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63656&oldid=63655 * A * (+515) /* Command reference */
02:01:28 <esowiki> [[Dynamic Contraction System]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63657&oldid=63656 * A * (+176)
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06:28:00 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63658&oldid=63142 * A * (+257)
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06:28:59 <esowiki> [[DCS]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=63659 * A * (+40) Redirected page to [[Dynamic Contraction System]]
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07:42:56 <HackEso> Gregor took forty cakes. He took 40 cakes. That's as many as four tens. And that's terrible.
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08:00:12 <int-e> shachaf: the sun didn't rise at 2:13 ;-)
08:01:09 <int-e> (5:20 is what the Internet claims for Innsbruck)
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08:56:24 <esowiki> [[Dynamic Contraction System]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63660&oldid=63657 * A * (+72)
09:00:56 <esowiki> [[Dynamic Contraction System]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63661&oldid=63660 * A * (+260)
09:09:51 <esowiki> [[Dynamic Contraction System]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63662&oldid=63661 * A * (+182) /* Examples */ I found that this is way too complex. I will try my best to simplify the syntax.
09:11:37 <esowiki> [[Dynamic Contraction System]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63663&oldid=63662 * A * (+176) /* Syntactic sugars */
09:12:20 <esowiki> [[Dynamic Contraction System]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63664&oldid=63663 * A * (-17) /* Truth-machine */
09:13:59 <esowiki> [[Dynamic Contraction System]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63665&oldid=63664 * A * (-85) /* DCS compiler to BIT */
09:14:22 <esowiki> [[Dynamic Contraction System]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63666&oldid=63665 * A * (+41) /* DCS compiler to BIT */
09:16:50 <esowiki> [[Dynamic Contraction System]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63667&oldid=63666 * A * (+3) /* Syntactic sugars */
09:18:14 <Taneb> int-e: ah but when was dawn?
09:18:51 <esowiki> [[Dynamic Contraction System]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63668&oldid=63667 * A * (-5) /* Command reference */
09:19:09 <esowiki> [[Dynamic Contraction System]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63669&oldid=63668 * A * (+33) /* Syntactic sugars */
09:19:17 <shachaf> Are you Cambridging it up or something?
09:19:29 <esowiki> [[Dynamic Contraction System]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63670&oldid=63669 * A * (+17) /* Syntactic sugars */
09:20:23 <esowiki> [[Dynamic Contraction System]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63671&oldid=63670 * A * (+125) /* Examples */
09:20:59 <esowiki> [[Dynamic Contraction System]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63672&oldid=63671 * A * (+43) /* Syntactic sugars */
09:22:12 <esowiki> [[Dynamic Contraction System]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63673&oldid=63672 * A * (+114) /* Syntactic sugars */
09:22:39 <int-e> Taneb: astronomical dawn: 2:19; nautical dawn: 3:43; civil dawn: 4:38.
09:22:56 <shachaf> there is nothing civil about dawn
09:23:16 <int-e> "Civil dawn is the moment when the geometric center of the Sun is 6 degrees below the horizon in the morning."
09:23:40 <int-e> I do agree with the sentiment.
09:24:41 <esowiki> [[Dynamic Contraction System]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63674&oldid=63673 * A * (+161) /* Examples */
09:25:02 <shachaf> int-e: How's the MD5 thing going?
09:25:18 <shachaf> Do you know what I should read to know about differential paths and things?
09:25:32 <Taneb> Dawn was at 3:50 here :(
09:25:34 <int-e> It's not going anywhere right now.
09:26:04 <int-e> Taneb: I suspect you're further North. And East. But are you in the same time zone?
09:26:45 <esowiki> [[Dynamic Contraction System]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63675&oldid=63674 * A * (+211) /* DCS compiled to Chicken */
09:26:58 <Taneb> int-e: you're in Austria, right? I think I'm actually west of you, but in a different time zone
09:26:59 <int-e> hmm, actually I'm not so sure about east... the maps I grew up with were severely distorted...
09:27:57 <int-e> Taneb: Ah sorry, I should know better. You should be 1h behind. (GMT+1)
09:28:20 <Taneb> Cambridge is north enough we never get out of twilight this time of year :(
09:29:14 <esowiki> [[EsoInterpreters]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63676&oldid=63530 * A * (+462) Ruin this page(as DCS can trivially implement any language that does not require bytecodes).
09:29:48 <Taneb> Hexham doesn't even see astronomical twilight until the 3rd of July
09:29:48 <int-e> about 12 degrees further west... almost enough to account for one hour difference.
09:35:37 <esowiki> [[EsoInterpreters]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63677&oldid=63676 * A * (+0)
09:38:49 <int-e> shachaf: I guess there's the Wang and Yu paper, http://merlot.usc.edu/csac-f06/papers/Wang05a.pdf ... the last one I looked at was https://eprint.iacr.org/2009/223 ... but I have not found any clear description of what a differential path is; all the papers seem to have concrete examples. Maybe there's something in the chosen-prefix collision attack,...
09:38:54 <int-e> ...https://documents.epfl.ch/users/l/le/lenstra/public/papers/lat.pdf
09:40:07 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63678&oldid=63658 * A * (+33) /* Sandbox: Amswer */ I think this is a trivial language... golfed it.
09:40:52 <int-e> I mean the latter paper promises an automated way for finding differential paths, so they *should* also explain what they are. But I have not read it all.
09:40:58 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63679&oldid=63678 * A * (+178) /* Sandbox: Amswer */
09:46:18 <esowiki> [[If the question specifies that the number of the words should be less than 3, and the number of words in your answer is larger than 3, your answer is automatically wrong.]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=63680 * A * (+1280) A joke...
09:47:25 <esowiki> [[If the question specifies that the number of the words should be less than 3, and the number of words in your answer is larger than 3, your answer is automatically wrong.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63681&oldid=63680 * A * (+482)
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09:55:37 <wob_jonas> shachaf: no, intelligence is just one of the six fundamental attributes. it gives a hard limit on how hard spells you can learn, or even just activate if someone else cast them to a scroll. If you're not studying arcane magic, it's mostly meaningless, but there are ways to measure intelligence through its less important side effects, which is usefu
09:55:38 <wob_jonas> l because it tells you whether it's worth for you to pursue a carreer in arcane magic.
09:58:12 <shachaf> How can I tell whether to pursue a career in arcane magic?
09:58:42 <esowiki> [[If the question specifies that the number of the words should be less than 3, and the number of words in your answer is larger than 3, your answer is automatically wrong.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63682&oldid=63681 * A * (+315) /* Syntax */
09:59:12 <wob_jonas> int-e: why would you need an explanation of what they are if you have a way to find them? you just want the collision, not the theory, unless you aspire to be a leading cryptographer who designs entirely new crypto primitives.
10:00:08 <shachaf> How do you know what int-e just ants?
10:00:42 <esowiki> [[If the question specifies that the number of the words should be less than 3, and the number of words in your answer is larger than 3, your answer is automatically wrong.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63683&oldid=63682 * A * (+131)
10:00:49 <int-e> wob_jonas: the existing collision techniques don't quite work for what we want
10:01:26 <int-e> shachaf: I'd suggest a career in arcane magic if you're in a square tunnel 10ft high and wide.
10:01:31 <wob_jonas> int-e: ask on https://crypto.stackexchange.com/
10:01:50 <int-e> wob_jonas: ##crypto doesn't even know of any ASCII-only collisions.
10:02:32 <Taneb> int-e: is this you trying to break Haskell again?
10:02:45 <esowiki> [[If the question specifies that the number of the words should be less than 3, and the number of words in your answer is larger than 3, your answer is automatically wrong.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63684&oldid=63683 * A * (+300)
10:02:48 <int-e> Taneb: again? this is still the same idea...
10:03:05 <shachaf> int-e has been trying to break haskell all this time
10:03:09 <Taneb> I meant something like "Is this, again, you trying to break Haskell?"
10:03:25 <shachaf> due to excellent and carefully-considered choices in cryptographic primitives
10:03:45 <esowiki> [[If the question specifies that the number of the words should be less than 3, and the number of words in your answer is larger than 3, your answer is automatically wrong.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63685&oldid=63684 * A * (+292)
10:03:51 <int-e> And that's what it is... an idea. I don't think it's very realistic really, unless somebody does the obvious that involves 2^64 MD5 computations.
10:04:42 <shachaf> Which is remarkably feasible.
10:04:58 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63686&oldid=62268 * A * (+348) /* General languages */
10:05:00 <int-e> but not quite a hobby project
10:06:31 <esowiki> [[If the question specifies that the number of the words should be less than 3, and the number of words in your answer is larger than 3, your answer is automatically wrong.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63687&oldid=63685 * A * (+19)
10:06:55 <shachaf> Did you figure out the approximate cost in USD for someone determined?
10:07:25 <wob_jonas> why do we actually need to find a collision? isn't it enough to know that it's reasonably possible to find one, and patch Haskell to avoid that?
10:07:59 <int-e> I think we hade 50k on Amazon AWS as an estimate... so it should be quite a bit cheaper when done at home.
10:08:44 <esowiki> [[Dynamic Contraction System]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63688&oldid=63675 * A * (+23) /* Examples */
10:10:12 <wob_jonas> currency conversion from 50_000 USD
10:11:53 <shachaf> Do you know what the AWS premium is for something like this?
10:12:12 <shachaf> Maybe it's 1000x and it only costs $50 at home.
10:13:15 <esowiki> [[Dynamic Contraction System]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63689&oldid=63688 * A * (+75) Suggestions are welcome. (I've ruined DCS via using up whitespace characters.)
10:15:25 <int-e> shachaf: I'd assume a factor 3-10 marginally, but there's the hardware cost to consider as well.
10:15:44 <int-e> Note: This is a wild guess.
10:20:52 <int-e> shachaf: I suspect we're talking about something like 50MWh on a GPU.
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10:32:06 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63690&oldid=63679 * A * (+8142)
10:38:26 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63691&oldid=63690 * A * (+4806) /* 99 bottles of beer program in H */ Doc
10:39:11 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63692&oldid=63691 * A * (+17) /* 99 bottles of beer program in H */
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11:28:03 <wob_jonas> int-e: you were right https://esolangs.org/logs/2019-06-22.html#l6b
11:29:02 <shachaf> I wish there was a channel like this one minus the logs.
11:29:12 <shachaf> I should probably stop talking in here and other logged IRC channels.
11:29:50 <wob_jonas> shachaf: I can join #esoteric-blah if you want
11:30:07 <wob_jonas> that channel is already tied to #esoteric, and it's not logged
11:30:37 <wob_jonas> now of course you know all the risks about that, such as, if you say something on a non-logged channel, people will often miss it
11:31:27 <shachaf> Isn't that a channel for bot spam?
11:33:22 <wob_jonas> shachaf: it currently is, but if we use it for more important things, we can excise the bot spam elsewhere
11:33:34 <wob_jonas> on-topic conversations get priority, and bot spam is easy to move
11:34:07 <wob_jonas> if I ever reincarnate termbot and take it there, feel free to complain and I'll take it to another channel instead
11:35:40 <wob_jonas> heck, I have two channels registered here on freenode for botspam: #jeval and #termbot
11:49:51 <wob_jonas> but if you prefer, we could start a different unlogged channel, and advertise it through topic and HackEso stuff
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13:38:28 <wob_jonas> TIL that in Super Metroid, Mother Brain has only one eye. I thought she had two eyes, we were just seeing her from profile so one eye was behind the other.
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14:20:53 * int-e wonders whether shachaf has been bitten by the logs in any serious way
14:24:57 <lambdabot> LOWI 251350Z 08006KT 030V150 CAVOK 34/11 Q1020 NOSIG
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15:34:56 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63693&oldid=63692 * A * (-13434) /* 99 bottles of beer program in H */ @shachaf: I am really sorry about that; I have too many ideas today.
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18:21:40 <shachaf> I would really like this A person to stop addressing me or mentioning my name.
18:23:18 <shachaf> ais523: Can something be done about this edit as well?
18:24:30 <int-e> shachaf: Ah I rest much more easily since I started ignoring A-related esowiki messages. I still look at the "recent changes" to see how much peace of mind I've gained :)
18:25:28 <int-e> But tbf, I have not been targeted personally recently either.
18:25:46 <int-e> Basically I have not engaged with A since the Bitch debacle.
18:27:17 <shachaf> int-e: Oh, that wasn't a response to what you said, it was a response to the esowiki bot message about an hour later.
18:27:30 <int-e> shachaf: Yeah I just saw it. :)
18:27:44 <int-e> shachaf: but of course I replied first...
18:28:19 <int-e> shachaf: That said, knowing the actual context doesn't change much of my reply.
18:29:27 <shachaf> I think I'm bitten by logs regularly in that reading anything I wrote in the past is an intensely unpleasant experience.
18:31:41 <b_jonas> shachaf: that is normal. everyone improves by time, and finds themselves having done stupid and childish things in the past.
18:31:55 <b_jonas> and our channel is old enough (in logged form) for this to happen.
18:32:31 <b_jonas> but at least yesterday I haven't written code with consistently no space before the assignment operator but one space after
18:32:34 <shachaf> Even things I wrote one day ago have this property.
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18:51:40 <kmc> shachaf: I bought a USB-C charger
18:51:42 <kmc> it's exciting
18:51:46 <kmc> furthermore, it has 12V DC input
18:51:56 <kmc> and is 90W
18:52:42 <shachaf> I have a few USB-PD chargers at around 90W that I use for my laptop and also other devices.
18:59:16 <kmc> this is for my off grid solar battery box thingy
18:59:29 <kmc> I'm going to chop off the car plug and attach Powerpole connectors
18:59:41 <kmc> (and then attach powerpole connectors to the chopped off end for good measure)
18:59:52 <kmc> (but I already have a lot of car plug to powerpole cables, and some car socket to powerpole cables)
18:59:55 <kmc> powerpole is tg
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22:42:11 <esowiki> [[Rook]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63694&oldid=63638 * Areallycoolusername * (+939)
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23:31:10 <esowiki> [[Talk:Rook]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63695&oldid=63637 * A * (+257)
23:31:21 <esowiki> [[Talk:Rook]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63696&oldid=63695 * A * (+77) /* Please specify again */
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23:38:43 <esowiki> [[Rook]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63697&oldid=63694 * A * (+24)
23:40:42 <esowiki> [[Rook]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63698&oldid=63697 * A * (-4) /* Original Idea */ Simplify the doc
23:41:08 <esowiki> [[Rook]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63699&oldid=63698 * A * (-10) /* Original Idea */
23:53:36 <esowiki> [[Talk:Rook]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63700&oldid=63696 * A * (+162) /* Please specify again */
23:56:23 <fizzie> fungot: Do you have any cat friends you could ask to answer that?
23:56:23 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, i first wish to thank parliament for its support for continued financial assistance to armenia, georgia and azerbaijan to open hospitals at least in my country, and the broad economic policy guidelines. when will it be to incorporate a decision on the protection of the euro.
23:56:43 <esowiki> [[Rook]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63701&oldid=63699 * A * (+0) /* Specifics */ There are a lot of grammar mistakes in this document.
23:57:46 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl* ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
23:57:57 <fungot> Selected style: alice (Books by Lewis Carroll)
23:58:07 <fungot> shachaf: " but suppose the book were really fnord to fnord breath again?' she suggested.
23:58:24 <fungot> shachaf: ' of course it is,' said the red knight, and they put me out.'
23:58:50 <fungot> Selected style: homestuck (Homestuck pages 1901-4673)
23:58:52 <fizzie> fungot: What sort of shenanigans are those trolls up to now?
23:58:52 <fungot> fizzie: the life in the water. dave's package contained a modified with rose's knitting. he gave rose a knitting set, the fabled to live on the green moon in the other. dream john, still asleep, fell. he was saved by bro's room unable to do this
23:59:34 <esowiki> [[Talk:Rook]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63702&oldid=63700 * A * (+252) Add more information about the documentation
00:00:05 <fizzie> They're having a onesie Wednesday at work (it's like casual Friday except you can guess the difference), but I don't have one.
00:03:03 <fizzie> I have as many as none.
00:03:15 <fizzie> I guess there's a one in none.
00:04:21 <arseniiv> <shachaf> are cats esoteric? => maybe. My cat regularly can’t remember there is food and I need to walk her to it for her to see and eat it. I can’t model what’s in her head, as she doesn’t seem to be absent-minded
00:05:43 <shachaf> how come i've never seen it
00:06:24 <arseniiv> or she could decide to be offended by me and walk away and a minute later she returns and purrs
00:07:18 <arseniiv> she’s sleeping now, a perfect reminder to me to go too
00:07:36 <shachaf> to go photograph her, you mean
00:07:48 <shachaf> and post the photographs in this channel
00:07:48 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63703&oldid=63693 * A * (-661) /* A simple concentrative language in 26 lines of C code */ It's wrong to swear and shout.
00:08:27 <arseniiv> maybe tomorrow I’ll post that zipper-tree language on the wiki, with a photograph?.. or without? Nobody knows!
00:08:50 <arseniiv> I mean, today in the late afternoon
00:08:54 <lambdabot> Local time for arseniiv is ср июн. 26 05:08:51 2019
00:10:05 <arseniiv> though why is it local upto weekday and month spellings?
00:10:49 <shachaf> it's your own irc client sending that text
00:11:36 <arseniiv> hm it should do it more neutrally
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00:53:56 <fungot> fizzie: that is a winner's attitude, and there is no particularly good human translation for this concept. a concept usually denoted by a single, linear concept. a concept usually denoted by a single, linear concept. a concept usually denoted by a single, linear concept. a concept usually denoted by a single, linear concept. a concept usually denoted by a single, linear concept. a concept usually denoted by a single, linear con
00:54:48 <fizzie> Aw, I thought I had got that right. :/
00:55:03 <shachaf> fungot's speech seems to be denoted by a single, linear concept.
00:55:03 <fungot> shachaf: this is a really hot look for a stronger!
01:00:22 <fizzie> Even looking at them sources, I'm not sure what went wrong there.
01:05:10 <fizzie> Ohhh, maybe lambdabot's just ignoring their fellow robotic pal.
01:06:13 <shachaf> fungot is also not responding to my ctcp time
01:06:13 <fungot> shachaf: this is it, like an apple or, just maybe, this is just what your porkhollow's fat ass needs.
01:06:30 <fungot> shachaf: john. recycle the grist in the room. he briefly speaks to its strife! quota for the day. she simply returns to the land of thought and focus on the matter
01:06:43 <fungot> Selected style: agora (a large selection of Agora rules, both current and historical)
01:07:24 <fizzie> Yeah, I wasn't paying attention.
01:07:31 <fizzie> (It's kind of a human-assisted mechanism.)
01:08:27 <shachaf> fungot: you're the bot now, dog
01:08:27 <fungot> shachaf: iv) the frequency of a
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01:08:41 <shachaf> 18:08 CTCP CUDDLE reply from fungot:
01:09:07 <shachaf> we've discovered the best bot
01:09:10 <fizzie> I think that may have been a protocol violation.
01:09:38 <shachaf> cuddle protocols have been violated
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01:10:52 <fizzie> For the agora fungot style, I think there may have been a few too many insufficiently unwrapped newlines.
01:10:52 <fungot> fizzie: whatever the outcome of the contest fund shall be created in the rules
01:11:06 <fizzie> It tends to end sentences pretty abruptly.
01:11:59 <shachaf> preferably the kind with fur + meow
01:13:41 <fizzie> There's a new pair of those on the [insert your locale's designation of the floor that's one above street level] floor flat right above the entrance to this building, every now and then I see them observing intently what goes on.
01:14:44 <shachaf> kmc: https://www.reddit.com/r/aww/comments/byltf3/my_nephew_had_the_best_interruption_while_trying/
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01:43:16 <Sgeo_> Is LuaRocks more like Python's packaging... globalness, or is it more like Cargo/npm with separate dependency installations per project?
01:43:33 <Sgeo_> I have no idea what packaging is like in the Pythonverse
01:51:29 <fizzie> They've got that venv thing going on over there in Pythonia, at least.
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02:10:00 <Sgeo_> Apparently LuaRocks is global by default, can be set to be local
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03:32:11 <esowiki> [[Garbage]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=63704 * A * (+427) Created page with "[[Garbage]] is a very simple [[esoteric programming language]] in order to fullfill the definitions of a programmming language. == Syntax == The language can only contain one..."
03:35:03 <esowiki> [[Garbage]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63705&oldid=63704 * A * (-11) /* Syntax */
03:35:46 <esowiki> [[Garbage]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63706&oldid=63705 * A * (+24) /* Syntax */
03:36:06 <esowiki> [[Garbage]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63707&oldid=63706 * A * (-12)
03:37:47 <esowiki> [[Garbage]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63708&oldid=63707 * A * (+13) /* Syntax */
04:07:36 <esowiki> [[Garbage]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63709&oldid=63708 * A * (+200)
04:07:58 <esowiki> [[Garbage]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63710&oldid=63709 * A * (-3) /* Implementation */
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08:36:10 <wob_jonas> `bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.smackjeeves.com/comics/2815101/20190521/
08:36:12 <HackEso> bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.smackjeeves.com/comics/2815101/20190521/: b_jonas
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08:37:24 <esowiki> [[Andrei Machine 9000]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63711&oldid=11675 * Salpynx * (+254) /* Examples */ 4-cube skeleton
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13:29:24 <wob_jonas> Say I have a 1990s scientific pocket calculator that works with floating-point numbers whose mantissa is a decimal number of 12 decimal digits. I want to find out if it does multiplication correctly, or instead it cheats by dropping some digits or doing rounding wrong, and thus reverse engineer the semantics of its multiplication. Does someone happ
13:29:24 <wob_jonas> en to have testcases that help in this?
13:34:05 <wob_jonas> Also, I just realized why, if in an interactive python3 interpreter, you enter a for-loop with a single statement right after the colon, it prompts you for more lines before executing it, despite that python syntax implies that the body suite can't continue if there's a statement after the colon in the same line
13:34:57 <wob_jonas> It's because for loops have an optional else: clause
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14:12:42 <fizzie> I think there was another language with "else" clauses for loops, except with different semantics.
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14:13:34 <fizzie> Python's are apparently "the loop terminated due to the condition being false" (instead of break).
14:13:47 <fizzie> The other language I think was "the loop was not entered at all".
14:14:04 <myname> i thought it also was the later for python
14:15:31 <wob_jonas> fizzie: yes, there's I think two different semantics. continue blocks in perl; else blocks in python; and some crazy suggestion for C++ (though I don't see how it would even not be syntactically ambiguous)
14:17:10 <myname> isn't c++'s syntax context sensitive to begin with
14:19:54 <wob_jonas> myname: no, I mean it would patently break existing programs that have the form `if (a) for (;b;) c; else d;`
14:20:06 <wob_jonas> and that's so obvious that that probably wasn't the proposed syntax
14:20:21 <wob_jonas> either the syntax was different or I'm confusing this with an entirely different language or just dreamed it up
14:20:32 <myname> good old dangling else
14:30:46 <wob_jonas> myname: incidentally, the dangling else doesn't make the grammer not context-free
14:34:13 <myname> constructors or something like that do, according to the c++ fqa
14:34:49 <int-e> wob_jonas: it doesn't even make the grammar inherently unambiguous.
14:35:15 <wob_jonas> https://cs.stackexchange.com/q/68828/
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14:39:56 <kolontaev> Generating Malbolge code using simulated annealing https://yurichev.com/blog/malbolge/
14:44:49 <Taneb> kolontaev: very cool!
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14:57:04 <arseniiv> shachaf: my cat: https://imgur.com/a/PPqkpMU
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15:09:23 <arseniiv> fizzie: no, “the” is the name of the picture, and cat’s name is one of fungot’s styles
15:09:23 <fungot> arseniiv: ( 2) without disrupting the existence of the
15:09:30 <fungot> Available: agora* alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
15:10:39 <arseniiv> though I should consider renaming her “the” as she prefers to not treat that name as something special
15:11:10 <arseniiv> so I call her different things from time to time
15:32:29 <esowiki> [[Talk:Rook]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63712&oldid=63702 * Areallycoolusername * (+1307)
15:33:28 <esowiki> [[Talk:Rook]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63713&oldid=63712 * Areallycoolusername * (-3)
15:33:59 <esowiki> [[Talk:Rook]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63714&oldid=63713 * Areallycoolusername * (+2)
15:36:11 <esowiki> [[Rook]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63715&oldid=63701 * Areallycoolusername * (+134)
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16:05:43 <myname> ugh, getting a contact email for google support is terrible
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16:10:36 <int-e> myname: please hold while we train our AI to deal with your problem
16:12:08 <int-e> Sometimes I'm surprised to hear that apparently, Google still employs people.
16:17:14 <esowiki> [[Rook]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63716&oldid=63715 * Areallycoolusername * (+1570)
16:17:44 <esowiki> [[Rook]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63717&oldid=63716 * Areallycoolusername * (+4) /* Hello World Program */
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16:19:12 <esowiki> [[Talk:Rook]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63718&oldid=63714 * Areallycoolusername * (+135) /* Explanation */
16:28:21 <fizzie> I don't think there is really such a thing as "Google support", as in a specific group of people.
16:28:58 <fizzie> (All the groups of people are more specific to products than that.)
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17:12:06 <arseniiv> hm it seems I’ve just reinvented a call stack
17:15:10 <arseniiv> a stack where you have bars (I have taken them from 7 and maybe something else too) and can index elements from the highest bar upto top and push a copy of an element by index (what’s good it doesn’t mess the indexing)
17:15:29 <arseniiv> normal commands use the top elements as usual
17:16:21 <arseniiv> also one can clear all elements from the top down to the nearest bar, and remove that bar too, and we can assume the bottom has an infinite amount of bars
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17:17:10 <arseniiv> and then I muse: we could support procedures this way… and then it gets me
17:18:39 <arseniiv> though I’m worried that punctured trees and this barstack will feel crowded in one esolang together
17:18:58 <arseniiv> but this memory organization seems just too good
17:19:24 <int-e> why should Befunge be alone in the feature-creeped esolang category...
17:24:04 <arseniiv> though I have a guiding star of Real Fast Nora’s Hair Salon Shear Disaster Download
17:24:26 <arseniiv> int-e: oh, I meant to say I didn’t think it’s feature-creeped at all
17:24:31 <int-e> At the least there's mroman's Burlesque, and there are the Golfscript dialects.
17:26:11 * int-e tries to pinpoint the meaning of "it".
17:26:36 <arseniiv> I don’t remember its features in full, so it’s an internal something, not an external something
17:27:02 <int-e> https://github.com/Deewiant/Mycology is an indication of how rich Befunge is.
17:27:02 <arseniiv> my friend had eaten my ears with mentions of de re and de dicto, so I wonder if this is them
17:27:45 <arseniiv> int-e fails. => I meant, Befunge. Oh, I need more pronouns
17:29:28 <int-e> Also the very fact that there are language extensions ("fingerprints") is very feature-creepy.
17:31:34 <fungot> int-e: 0.50 if the deck and transferring it to take precedence over every other currency.
17:31:55 <int-e> fungot: are those '06 bitcoins?
17:31:56 <fungot> int-e: there is a member of that cfj. the ' actual value' of the three day period is in
17:32:01 <fungot> arseniiv: announcement of a
17:32:14 <int-e> shachaf: ^^ beware
17:32:15 <arseniiv> I hope that a is case-sensitive
17:33:10 <arseniiv> shachaf: have you seen my cat named the^W^W yet?
17:34:13 <arseniiv> also is Punctree a reasonable portmanteau of “punctured” and “tree”?
17:34:47 <arseniiv> (this is not for schachaf specifically)
17:38:25 <kmc> woot, charging my laptop from USB-C for the first time
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18:20:41 <esowiki> [[Rook]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63719&oldid=63717 * Areallycoolusername * (+101)
18:23:02 <esowiki> [[Rook]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63720&oldid=63719 * Areallycoolusername * (+27)
18:23:28 <HackEso> abnf:Augmented Backus-Naur Form, an update on the popular Backus-Naur Form programming language, introduces support for "Augmented Production", e.g. `foo +::= bar`. The older `::=` syntax will continue to be supported for orthogonal-compatibility purposes. \ arabic:.scihpylgoreiH sa drah sa ton hguoht ,troppus stnof ekam ot drah yrev si taht egaugnal citimes lartnec a si cibarA \ bardsworthlist:bardsworthlist is update notification for the Bardsworth webco
18:23:42 <esowiki> [[Rook]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63721&oldid=63720 * Areallycoolusername * (+0)
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18:52:33 <kmc> I now have a USB-C power brick that can charge my laptop from a Powerpole connector!
18:52:36 <kmc> this is so exciting
18:52:45 <kmc> it's pretty compact too
18:54:01 <shachaf> arseniiv: that is a top-notch tdh
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19:04:56 <shachaf> arseniiv: Uh, a top-notch cat
19:06:36 <arseniiv> shachaf: I thought tdh is something like hth, a modifier of sorts
19:06:53 <HackEso> tdh is the past tense of a successful hth. hth.
19:07:01 <arseniiv> so I’ve already presumed it’s about the cat
19:09:03 <shachaf> i have a state-of-the-art cat classification system and it has classified alice as top-notch
19:12:53 <HackEso> Cats are cool, but should be illegal.
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20:57:24 <esowiki> [[Punctree]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=63722 * Arseniiv * (+8686) the revelation cant be postponed any further
20:57:55 <esowiki> [[User:Arseniiv]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63723&oldid=59252 * Arseniiv * (+15) technical
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21:02:15 <esowiki> [[Punctree]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63724&oldid=63722 * Arseniiv * (+94) categorify
21:05:23 <esowiki> [[Punctree]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63725&oldid=63724 * Arseniiv * (+26) /* Syntax */ behavior fix
21:06:45 <arseniiv> I think it’s TC but it may surprisingly be not
21:13:32 <esowiki> [[Punctree]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63726&oldid=63725 * Arseniiv * (+6) sorry, a couple of not-so-tolerable mistakes
21:17:31 <int-e> arseniiv: a funny byte encoding would be to compose 2 _ 0 and 2 0 _ (with 2 0 0 for nil)
21:18:41 <arseniiv> though we need to be able to parse it
21:19:14 <arseniiv> for the original one, I at least think it’s easy
21:19:40 <int-e> this idea brought to you by lisp: caaddr
21:20:12 <arseniiv> int-e: though nil would be _, there should be exactly one hole in a whole tree
21:20:15 <int-e> But yeah I bet it's more annoying to parse thant the more customary cons/nil list.
21:20:37 <int-e> oh right. I wanted to make a tree for some reason, rather than a context (aka tree')
21:21:02 <shachaf> arseniiv: your cat's ears are very good
21:21:52 <arseniiv> shachaf: hm I thought these are a pretty standard ones
21:22:04 <int-e> arseniiv: oh is _° := 0 a typo?
21:22:21 <arseniiv> int-e: definitely, it should be idempotent here
21:23:28 <esowiki> [[Punctree]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63727&oldid=63726 * Arseniiv * (+1) nastie typoes
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21:28:00 <arseniiv> int-e: destructing your things seems easy: π′(2 cont′ 0) = π′(2 0 cont′) = cont′, and we can see is this 2 cont′ 0 or 2 0 cont′ by using < (gives 2 cont′ 0 ≢ _ vs. _)
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21:28:33 <arseniiv> then we need to show they are easily constructed
21:29:38 <arseniiv> __+ gives 2 _ 0, then we can apply ~ to get 2 0 _, and we can compose all the way
21:30:04 <arseniiv> I’ll swap in your construction, then
21:31:20 <arseniiv> int-e: also what’s your wiki name if I to credit you
21:31:37 <int-e> it's totally unsurprising: int-e
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21:33:13 <shachaf> Did you ever say the meaning of that name?
21:36:47 <HackEso> int-e är inte svensk. Hen kommer att spränga solen. Hen står för sig själv. Hen gillar inte färger, men han gillar dissonans. Er hat ein Hipster-Spiel gekauft.
21:40:11 <arseniiv> int-e: so it’s not for example Int-E or something? Though thanks, this is much simpler to find out
21:47:24 <esowiki> [[Punctree]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63728&oldid=63727 * Arseniiv * (+576) newerer
21:49:55 <int-e> For building constants, you can add bits with _+ and ~_+~, no . required. I think.
21:52:10 <int-e> ("add" meaning "prepend")
21:53:13 <b_jonas> Or perhaps store unbounded sized natural numbers in the tree encoding that Amicus uses? :-)
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21:58:05 <arseniiv> int-e: better safe! I’m not entirely sure in +, I added it solely to construct something with 2 as a head
21:59:19 <arseniiv> b_jonas: is there a place for one _?
21:59:36 <b_jonas> arseniiv: no. they represent integers as a *tree*.
21:59:44 <b_jonas> trees don't have underscores.
22:00:03 <b_jonas> this way you can also represent lists of numbers as a tree
22:00:10 <b_jonas> since you just put the representations in a list
22:00:22 <arseniiv> ah, though, what am I saying, we can always treat a tree as (2 _ tree), valid here
22:00:51 <b_jonas> I assumed you use the underscore as a cursor that you move around in the tree or something
22:01:24 <b_jonas> that way you can modify items deep into the tree without having to rebuild a path from the root to it
22:02:49 <b_jonas> but I don't know much about what your language does, so I'm not sure about this
22:02:50 <arseniiv> though this is yet theoretical in regard to operations I had picked
22:03:33 <arseniiv> it does something strange, maybe I should this time write an interpreter
22:04:19 <b_jonas> and perhaps reusable library functions, if such things are possible in this language
22:06:28 <arseniiv> there is a big hack: quoting, and a while-else loop using quoted code chunks. One could write eval using that construct, so there is a way to use functions, though if there are more than 24 of them, it would be not so easy
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22:14:43 <arseniiv> int-e: yeah, it works, though there is no need for the first ~ (only the root branches are mirrored, so there is no need to pre-mirror the argument), but these two operations append bits. Though I can easily change the details so they would prepend them. Don’t know if having a most or least signifigant digit near the head of the tree′ is more useful
22:15:57 <int-e> arseniiv: hmm, are we viewing the trees the same way? I'm viewing the root as the head of the list
22:17:46 <b_jonas> what? no, the head is the left child (car), the tail is the right child (cdr)
22:18:20 <arseniiv> but look at my explicit procedure for converting a byte into a tree′, I think it should give results inverted to what you expected
22:19:56 <arseniiv> b_jonas: ah, this is how I started with the encoding, and it would be useful to encode arbitrary lists, but then int-e suggested a symmetric encoding for bit lists, so it’s about that one now
22:22:15 <int-e> arseniiv: I still think of it as prepending... you just have a little endian bit encoding. Your brain may operate differently :)
22:23:37 <shachaf> why do people use big endian
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22:23:44 <shachaf> does it have any benefits twh
22:24:08 <int-e> shachaf: it's an arBITrary choice
22:24:58 <int-e> Big endian is familiar from how we write numbers. I think for left-to-right reading it does have cognitive advantages in that the most significant digits are encountered first.
22:25:03 <int-e> Computers just don't care.
22:25:38 <esowiki> [[Punctree]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63729&oldid=63728 * Arseniiv * (+127) endianness issues: not treated
22:26:11 <int-e> it's time for https://www.ietf.org/rfc/ien/ien137.txt again.
22:30:04 <int-e> I'm not sure about before, but now you're just trolling
22:30:24 <shachaf> Hmm, I think I'm joking, not trolling.
22:30:45 <arseniiv> maybe when I will write the interpreter, there would be modes for both endiannesses, to check what code variant is easier on the eyes
22:32:00 <arseniiv> at least in this one I will be able to write a truth machine example
22:32:24 <arseniiv> as I specially included equality testing as a primitive
22:32:47 <arseniiv> no more hypothetical speepless nights!
22:33:04 <shachaf> My question was serious: Are there any benefits to writing numbers with the most significant digit first, rather than last?
22:33:11 <shachaf> It seems to me that it'd be less awkward the other way.
22:33:38 <arseniiv> shachaf: maybe, but we also need to start speaking them this way too
22:33:53 <shachaf> When I add numbers in my head, I often do it from left to right, and backtrack when I run into a carry. I think this is a common algorithm.
22:35:04 <shachaf> Obviously in practice it's more important to be compatible with existing conventions. But are there any advantages to the standard way?
22:39:43 <arseniiv> I think, mostly compatibility with spoken numerals and what int-e mentioned that most significant digit is more significant so maybe if it goes first, there may be a time advantage. Though I doubt it is for numbers under ten or so digits, they should be read all at once
22:40:12 <shachaf> But without knowing the length of the number the most significant digit is kind of meaningless.
22:40:35 <arseniiv> as for some additional obscure reasons, I’ll join the question
22:42:41 <arseniiv> so this second arguments dangles on very rare cases when we can (and want!) estimate the length of a number written on many lines, or maybe even pages, so that we also can’t see it all at once
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23:21:58 <salpynx> arseniiv: following the new Punctree spec, trying to test my understanding: Is (2 _ _) simply equal to a leaf, 0? so that 2 (2 _ _) α := 2 0 α?
23:24:19 <arseniiv> salpynx: hm I’d say 2 _ _ is meaningless (and can’t be a result of operations on trees′ which are defined there)
23:24:44 <arseniiv> we can define 0 as 2 _ _ if it would be useful, though!
23:25:31 <arseniiv> I don’t know if it will, at least from an implementation standpoint
23:27:22 <salpynx> the defaults of / \ seem to imply there is a virtual (2 _ _) below every 0, I was trying to think is there is difference between a virtual (2 _ _) and an explicit one
23:30:05 <salpynx> actually what I was really trying to do was make holes in the tree trunks, but these seem like proper binary trees, so that's not possible :)
23:34:18 <arseniiv> salpynx: ah now I see. If it will all be consistent, maybe there is a sense to treat 0 as 2 _ _, though I think there will still be complications
23:35:24 <arseniiv> yeah, holes in place of 2s would be far away from zipper ideas I flowed on to this
23:38:54 <salpynx> I wasn't sure about (2 _ _), whether it was implied or intended by the spec. I was trying to infer something that was not explicitly stated to check I got the concept. I _think_ it's safe, but there may be issues depending how other parts interact
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00:55:00 <fizzie> Heh, the place I've been using for (free) secondary DNS apparently discontinued the free account tier and made it a paid service, back mid-2017.
00:55:27 <fizzie> But they didn't deactivate existing domains, and I haven't had the occasion to make any changes, so I completely didn't notice.
00:55:33 <fizzie> Guess it's time to look for alternatives.
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01:24:58 <salpynx> Right, so /\^ are destructive operators rather than a way to traverse the tree: 2((2 0 0) (2 0 0))\^ := (2 0 0)^ := _ , you don't end up back where you started by going up. I was wondering if something like 0^^^^^.0 (go up 5 hole-levels from a root node and plug a disconnected hole) would be a problem, but it's actually straighfwd: 0^^^^^.0 := _.0
01:28:57 <salpynx> excuse the syntax, s/2(/(2/ ... I'm very new to this language
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04:18:06 <esowiki> [[Talk:Rook]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63730&oldid=63718 * A * (+859) /* Explanation */
04:20:34 <esowiki> [[Swapping Turing Machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63731&oldid=63322 * A * (+250) TM to STM
04:48:29 <esowiki> [[Rook]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63732&oldid=63721 * A * (+22) Are you trying to crash the user's computer? It is a crime to write a program like this. (Just kidding, I am trying to say that you mismatched a brace.)
04:49:09 <esowiki> [[Rook]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63733&oldid=63732 * A * (+2) * Trying to check if you mismatched a brace
04:50:48 <esowiki> [[Rook]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63734&oldid=63733 * A * (-10) /* Hello World Program */ If you included "using namespace std;", you can drop std:: to make the program shorter. (With other encancements)
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05:02:09 <esowiki> [[Rook]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63735&oldid=63734 * A * (+268) /* Hello World Program */ Cleaner program
05:28:30 <esowiki> [[Rook]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63736&oldid=63735 * A * (-93) /* Hello World Program */
05:31:10 <esowiki> [[Rook]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63737&oldid=63736 * A * (+262) /* Hello World Program */
05:32:38 <esowiki> [[Rook]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63738&oldid=63737 * A * (+8) /* Hello World Program */ Update URL
05:34:40 <esowiki> [[Talk:Rook]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63739&oldid=63730 * A * (+290) /* (Unfortunately) bounded memory support */
05:38:57 <esowiki> [[Rook]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63740&oldid=63738 * A * (-58) /* Hello World Program */ Update my program to a one-liner to show contrast
05:44:07 <esowiki> [[Rook]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63741&oldid=63740 * A * (-5) /* Hello World Program */
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07:20:22 <esowiki> [[Cyclic Amplification System]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=63742 * A * (+267) Created page with "[[Cyclic Amplification System]] is a language that multiplies an integer and adds the carry back to the number. == An example == Base 10, program <code>444</code>, rule <code>..."
07:27:17 <esowiki> [[Cyclic Amplification System]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63743&oldid=63742 * A * (+618) /* An example */
07:30:11 <esowiki> [[Cyclic Amplification System]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63744&oldid=63743 * A * (+29) /* Another example for a computation that does executions twice */
07:42:28 <esowiki> [[Cyclic Amplification System]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63745&oldid=63744 * A * (+1290)
07:47:50 <esowiki> [[Cyclic Amplification System]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63746&oldid=63745 * A * (-1) /* Another example for a computation that does many executions finitely */
07:48:43 <esowiki> [[Cyclic Amplification System]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63747&oldid=63746 * A * (-38) /* Computational class */
07:54:05 <esowiki> [[Union]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63748&oldid=63284 * A * (+86)
07:58:40 <esowiki> [[Talk:Timeline of esoteric programming languages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63749&oldid=24301 * A * (+364)
07:59:44 <esowiki> [[Talk:Timeline of esoteric programming languages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63750&oldid=63749 * A * (+44) /* Is "Union" notable? */
08:03:51 <esowiki> [[Timeline of esoteric programming languages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63751&oldid=61780 * A * (+203) /* 2014 */
08:05:48 <esowiki> [[Timeline of esoteric programming languages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63752&oldid=63751 * A * (+7) /* 2019 */
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08:30:50 <esowiki> [[Swapping Turing Machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63753&oldid=63731 * TuxCrafting * (-250) Undo revision 63731 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]]) the talk page doesn't have anything about a tm -> stm conversion
09:06:35 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63754&oldid=62192 * Total Vacuum * (+92) /* Hardware implementations */
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09:56:16 <arseniiv> salpynx: it occurred to me when I was going to sleep earlier, that behavior of \ and / shouldn’t suggest that 0 is 2 _ _: as a tree′ they operate on represents the zipper wholly, when it’s focused on a leaf (0), the tree′ looks like this: 2 u′ 0, and if 0 would be equivalent to 2 _ _, then the result of \ would give us 2 (u′ ∘ 2 _ _) _, not simply one _
09:56:43 <arseniiv> so it seems I picked _ for these unapplicability cases more or less wise, after all
09:58:11 <arseniiv> now, what could I change in the description to make things clearer? Hm I’ll better write out how I treat zippers in a more explicit manner, at least
10:03:08 <esowiki> [[Punctree]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63755&oldid=63729 * Arseniiv * (+100) /* Values */ clarifying a bit
10:03:22 <arseniiv> also it seems there still was a typo :D
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11:47:39 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * SMA * uploaded "[[File:Sqrt2b.png]]"
11:50:27 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * SMA * uploaded "[[File:Sqrt2.png]]"
12:03:16 <esowiki> [[BiTrax]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63758&oldid=42757 * SMA * (+127) Square root example. Removed dead link.
12:22:52 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63759&oldid=63703 * A * (+272) /* Write some nonsense here */
12:24:35 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63760&oldid=63759 * A * (+73) /* Write some nonsense here */
12:26:50 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63761&oldid=63760 * A * (+17) /* Write some nonsense here */
12:43:02 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63762&oldid=63761 * A * (-40) /* Write some nonsense here */
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14:23:23 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63763&oldid=63531 * Areallycoolusername * (+442)
14:25:59 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63764&oldid=63763 * Areallycoolusername * (-442) /* C++ */
14:28:08 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63765&oldid=63764 * Areallycoolusername * (+442)
14:29:11 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63766&oldid=63765 * Areallycoolusername * (+11) /* C++ */
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15:16:45 <esowiki> [[Talk:Rook]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63767&oldid=63739 * Areallycoolusername * (+396)
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15:32:05 <esowiki> [[Rook]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63768&oldid=63741 * Areallycoolusername * (+41)
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19:41:39 <arseniiv_> writing pythonic interpreter for Punctree, though I have been out for a time, and before that I had realized I need to represent trees′ as it’s done in a zipper, or zipper operations would be ineffective, and maybe some other ones too
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20:03:21 <b_jonas> arseniiv: ah yes. that might turn out to be tricky
20:04:03 <b_jonas> arseniiv: as for that language, besides an interpreter and some example programs, it may help if you wrote something about why this language is interesting to the wiki
20:04:33 <b_jonas> like, what emergent properties it has, what rules follow from its definition, what things are impossible to do in it, what are hard, etc
20:05:02 <b_jonas> it's possible that you don't know yet, that's normal when you invent an esolang, just saying that if you wrote such things, it may motivate other people to get interested about the language more than if you just give a definition
20:06:28 <b_jonas> and these are part of the things why I haven't posted anything specific about Consumer Society yet: it will be much more interesting if I write about it, which has to include interpreters and example programs and a reusable small library of functions
20:06:45 <b_jonas> (which in this case will be a library for 32-bit integer arithmetic)
20:07:03 <b_jonas> if you post about something, people will often read it when it's new, but are less likely to check back later as you edit it
20:07:15 <b_jonas> so it's useful to make it look good right as you post
20:12:21 <arseniiv> I think though, those more transient here are followed more attentively
20:13:55 <arseniiv> and people whose contribution is known and is more or less of some quality
20:14:49 <arseniiv> though e. g. I don’t track esobot’s announcements
20:16:57 <b_jonas> arseniiv: sure, and you have the advantage that this isn't one of those... bad quality posts that I don't even dare to call esolangs that you've surely found when you clicked on the "Random page" button on the esowiki
20:17:07 <b_jonas> you already start from an advantage
20:17:31 <b_jonas> I'm not trying to challenge your language or saying it's bad, just trying to steer you a bit to how you could improve the article
20:17:45 <b_jonas> or at least how I think you could improve it, but I'm not really the best authority in this
20:18:23 <arseniiv> b_jonas: contrary, I meant to encourage you to post something :)
20:19:22 <arseniiv> yeah, I think when the interpreter will be done, it would be much easier to write something new there
20:20:51 <arseniiv> I don’t think posting a more or less complete description and only then, additions, is that attention-unwise, I mean about your CS
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20:21:27 <arseniiv> for now I don’t even know what it’s about yet (though I bet it’s all there in the logs)
20:27:19 <b_jonas> arseniiv: well, what I said is only part of why I didn't post yet,
20:27:27 <b_jonas> and the rest of it are probably the bad reasons
20:27:48 <b_jonas> it's partly that I'm a bit jealous and don't want to give the idea away before I get a bit further and shape it to exactly the form I want
20:28:35 <b_jonas> and not everything is in the logs. some things are, but I was careful not to give too many spoilers, because the core idea is so simple that I'm still a little afraid that the same thing is already invented and out there somewhere
20:30:00 <b_jonas> also, there's a certain twist that is not really necessary for the language or even part of its core, but if I posted the language without it I'd sort of feel like it was cheating to add it later
20:30:05 <b_jonas> I can give away some of that twist:
20:30:47 <b_jonas> a while ago I posted in https://esolangs.org/wiki/List_of_ideas saying:
20:30:55 <b_jonas> > The classic textbook Aho, Ullman, The Theory of Parsing, Translation, and Compiling, (1972), explains in chapter 2.46 that there exist such context-free languages that have no unambiguous context-free grammars, and that such languages are called inherently ambiguous. After that, it states that “no inherently ambiguous programming languages have been devised yet”.
20:30:57 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:25: error: parse error on input ‘,’
20:31:01 <b_jonas> > This sounds like a challenge to find a programming language that is like that, or, failing that, create one.
20:31:58 <b_jonas> Anyway, I figured out that an easy way to make such a language is to take brainfuck, but allow an alternate syntax where <> are loops and [] move the head, but the whole program has to use one syntax or the other,
20:32:14 <b_jonas> this happens to result in an inherently ambiguous context-free grammar.
20:32:25 <b_jonas> But I REALLY don't want that language to exist, simple on account that it's a brainfuck-alike.
20:32:57 <b_jonas> But this could be done for a language other than brainfuck too, as long as its syntax is such that there's parenthesis that have to be nested properly, such as Underload.
20:33:13 <int-e> . o O ( We need a fancy Greek translation of "brainfuck" so that we can append -phobia and have some fun. )
20:33:56 <b_jonas> But even then, just allowing two different syntaxes where some punctuation marks are swapped is not very classy, it would remind me to those supposed esolangs that take their claim of esotericness only because the syntax is a bit weird, you know, like using - for addition and + for subtraction,.
20:34:24 <b_jonas> And that sort of thing is nice the first few times, such as for Intercal and Whitespace, but gets old quickly, so I don't want to do that either.
20:35:14 <b_jonas> But it turns out that there's a way how I can make this a bit more interesting rather than just swapping the punctuation characters, resulting in a similar extension of Consumer Society that has an inherently ambiguous context-free grammar.
20:36:12 <b_jonas> So for that, if you use the alternate bracket characters, not only the syntax changes, but the semantics of the language also changes in some interesting way. I can't really tell how exactly, because you'd need to know what Consumer Society is first.
20:36:41 <b_jonas> But if I pulled this trick later, it would feel worse than if it were there already as I post Consumer Society the first time.
20:37:00 <b_jonas> You can still use the simpler version of the language that doesn't have the alternate form, or the language that only has the alternate form if you want.
20:37:17 <b_jonas> In fact the alternate form happens to be the language I came up with first, Consumer Society is second, but so what.
20:38:22 <b_jonas> int-e: hmm, brain is "enkefalos" in greek
20:38:33 <b_jonas> you know, as in electro-encephalograph
20:40:09 <b_jonas> int-e: and it's not so much a fear as a hate or despisal
20:45:24 <int-e> b_jonas: but that's less fun
20:49:10 <b_jonas> I also hate BytePusher, which is a bit more irrational.
20:50:17 <b_jonas> I try to rationalize that by saying that I hate it because it doesn't have built-in arithmetic, even though every cpu should have (at least as much as 6502 has, without the undocumented rotate right instruction),
20:51:19 <b_jonas> but after making Consumer Society, which doesn't have built-in arithmetic, I can hardly keep saying that. my Consumer Society interpreter will have an optimized built-in version of the arithmetic library, which is optional to the language in the sense that I'll also write a version in pure portable Consumer Society,
20:51:37 <b_jonas> but then a BytePusher implementation could have a similar optimization too, so that's not a good excuse.
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22:02:05 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Ubersketch * New user account
22:06:10 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63769&oldid=63611 * Ubersketch * (+366) /* Introductions */
22:08:41 <HackEso> Random food recipes at https://gist.github.com/nylki/1efbaa36635956d35bcc
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22:47:55 <HackEso> 1/2:circle//A circle has no end. \ ladder jump//Ladder jump is the phenomenon that in practically all platformer games where the player character can climb up on ladders, it's faster to repeatedly jump and grab the ladder than to climb. \ wisdomme//wisdomme is a PDF that may be in the topic. boily is the one who compiles it. See `? wisdom.pdf \ xor//Xor is just addition of nimbers. \ butterfly//While some might think butterflies are descended fr
22:47:57 <HackEso> 2/2:om flies, that is a false entomology.
22:54:20 <int-e> b_jonas went through a obscure, but factually accurate, phase as a wisdom entry maker
23:02:58 <b_jonas> shachaf: hmm yeah, that's not a very good wisdom, at least if you take the majority school where wisdom entries should be confusing jokes, unlike ais523 who says that's not necessary. it's probably not a very good wisdom anyway.
23:03:05 <HackEso> A ladder is just a directed vertical bridge in the positive orientation.
23:03:21 <b_jonas> that one was suggested by me too, even if I wasn't the one to actually issue the learn command
23:03:49 <b_jonas> shachaf: because of the snakes and ladders game
23:03:54 <b_jonas> where ladders go up and snakes go down
23:04:01 <shachaf> But you can also climb down ladders.
23:04:45 <shachaf> Is it a game of zero skill?
23:04:47 <b_jonas> I do stand by wisdom/circle though
23:04:53 <int-e> some of the Keen games (4-6?) had poles that you could slide down
23:05:06 <b_jonas> shachaf: it was listed above
23:05:20 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, like the stereotypical fire department poles
23:05:22 <shachaf> Yes, I remembered that when I saw it.
23:05:36 <shachaf> A circle has no end, but that hardly characterizes circles. The real line also has no end.
23:05:39 <b_jonas> the xor one wasn't me, mine is wisdom/^
23:05:42 <int-e> and of course pole jumping is a phenomenon with those
23:05:49 <HackEso> ^ (also notated by ⊕ or ⊻) is the exclusive-or operator; ∧ (also notated by /\ or &) is the and (conjunction) operator; ^ (also notated by ↑ or ** or ⋆) is the power operator.
23:05:57 <b_jonas> int-e: oh yeah, that might make for a better wisdom
23:06:08 <b_jonas> because it at least has a pun
23:06:33 <b_jonas> I do know that it's called "pole vaulting" in English, because English is weird
23:06:44 <int-e> oh you mean we could call it "pole vaulting" instead?
23:06:49 <shachaf> When I was young, I would play that game.
23:06:53 <shachaf> The one with snakes and ladders, I mean.
23:07:00 <b_jonas> int-e: no, I don't think that would work
23:07:18 <int-e> maybe there's some angle with magnetic poles
23:07:19 <b_jonas> would you ever call it vaulting when you jump straight up in a platformer?
23:07:47 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: grEp: not found
23:07:51 <HackEso> amphiboily:Amphiboily is Franglish grammatical hambiguity, rewarded with a mapole. \ boily:“Sane Mapoleon” boily is monetizing a brotherhood scheme with the Guardian of Lachine. He is also a NaniDispenser, a Trigotillectomic Groan Man Eating Chicken, a METARologist, seriously lacking in the f-word department, a thwack doctor, a Quintopial antipodist, and a renowned Capitalist who helps keep the world kafkaesque. \ brontosaurus:A brontosaurus is an anci
23:07:56 <shachaf> In Snakes and Ladders, Is the expected number of moves to win monotonically decreasing with square number?
23:08:09 <b_jonas> don't we have a wisdom entry with one of the several stupid folk puns about poland and complex analysis?
23:08:11 <shachaf> If it isn't, there could be a small amount of strategy in going down some ladders, if that ws permitted.
23:08:27 <int-e> Oh I forgot the Capitalist bit.
23:09:15 <shachaf> Why do a bunch of people on the Internet say that they're against capitalism in vague ways?
23:09:26 <b_jonas> I think there are two such puns, one about Cauchy's dog peeing at every pole or something, and one about the integral of eastern europe
23:11:29 <b_jonas> nope, we do not in fact have those puns in wisdom. good.
23:12:24 <HackEso> Here on this channel we ascribe to a higher standard. See flagpole.
23:12:27 <HackEso> A flagpole is like a tadpole, but with a flag on top.
23:12:36 <HackEso> A tadpole is like a flagpole, but underwater, and also a tad shorter.
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23:13:33 <HackEso> A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to Canadian standards. The army version includes a spork, a corkscrew and a moose whistle. A regulatory mapole measures 6’ by 12 kg, ±0.5 inHg.
23:15:29 <shachaf> Well -- how much is 12 kg in '?
23:15:59 <shachaf> Apparently 12 kg is 2.92358877 × 10-26 feet.
23:16:41 <b_jonas> shachaf: 6' is approximately 0.17 kg
23:17:22 <shachaf> You're off by about 25 orders of magnitude.
23:17:28 <b_jonas> 6('³) is approximately 0.17 kg
23:18:01 <shachaf> How can you convert cubic feet to kg? That makes no sense.
23:18:09 <b_jonas> no wait, that's not right either
23:18:42 <b_jonas> 6('³) is approximately 170 kg
23:18:58 <b_jonas> shachaf: it's made of maple, which is a kind of wood, and for materials like that I just assume that the density is close to 1000
23:19:23 <b_jonas> just like how you convert drinks or other liquids or food that you buy in the store when they're labelled randomly either by mass or by volume
23:20:01 <int-e> shachaf: Nothing wrong with multiplying a weight by a height. If you divide by a Times Square, you get a new ton.
23:20:06 <b_jonas> the americans have this formalized by having a fluid ounce volume be close to an ounce weight for fizzie drinks,
23:20:20 <b_jonas> we have it formalized by having a liter volume be close to a kilogram weight for fizzie drinks
23:20:34 <b_jonas> it's a bit less for wood or alcohol actually, but not by much
23:20:45 <shachaf> int-e: Of course, but you can convert mass to height by multiplying by a constant.
23:21:27 <int-e> that's true as well, of course.
23:21:52 <b_jonas> I think ideally most of those food and drink you can buy should be labeled by mass rather than volume, but in practice it doesn't make much difference
23:21:58 <b_jonas> because of the other uncertainties involved
23:21:59 <int-e> "Most railroad track used for main line trains in the United States weighs at least 130 pounds per yard, or 43.33 pounds per foot."
23:22:17 <shachaf> The mass of the sun is approximately 1.5km, for example.
23:22:22 <b_jonas> you also have to do such conversions if you try to take numbers in food recipes seriously
23:23:42 <b_jonas> int-e: metal is different, that has a density between 6000 and 9000, except that aluminum, titanium, berillium and mithril have a 1/2 times weight modifier, and that gold and other precious metals have a 2* modifier
23:24:10 <int-e> tbh I don't know what shachaf did.
23:24:57 <b_jonas> (technically silver, lead, and mercury is in between the normal metals and precious metals, but you rarely need to know the density of those)
23:25:44 <b_jonas> these are just heuristics that I use, but heuristics are better than nothing
23:26:09 <b_jonas> shachaf: what is its Shwartzshield radius?
23:26:24 <b_jonas> what is its ... let me look it up
23:26:25 <int-e> Schwarzschild, I think.
23:26:32 <int-e> (German. Easy ;-) )
23:26:36 <shachaf> The sun? About 3km, twice the mass.
23:27:57 <int-e> . o O ( Intel needs to thread lightly. So... https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/c5nb01/amd_competitive_profile_where_we_go_toetotoe_why/ was good for at least one terrible pun so far. )
23:28:01 <b_jonas> int-e: schaschaf would know
23:28:16 <shachaf> Why would I know about German spellings?
23:28:25 <b_jonas> shachaf: not you, schaschaf
23:28:37 <b_jonas> or are you the same person?
23:28:38 <shachaf> Any word ending in "chaf" is referring to me.
23:28:54 <int-e> b_jonas: I tried to ask but all I got was "bah!"
23:28:57 <b_jonas> so that's like when I'm sometimes lob_jonas and sometimes wob_jonas?
23:29:26 <int-e> waste of brain, loss of brain?
23:29:58 <int-e> (it's not flattering but that's genuinely my default interpretation of "wob", can't be helped.)
23:30:54 <b_jonas> int-e: it's "wob" in the sense that it's used in https://www.xkcd.com/148/ , because that's when I'm using a wob-based irc client
23:31:16 <b_jonas> the "lob" came when I tried to manipulate fizzie's log formatter to color my name green
23:32:04 <b_jonas> but if those are the default associations, then I should consider changing the prefix
23:32:05 <int-e> b_jonas: Good to know, but I don't see how that changes a thing; it doesn't give any alternative meaning to "wob".
23:32:31 <shachaf> Oh, the mass of the sun is also approximate 5 microseconds.
23:33:02 <int-e> (wombat... waste of money, brains, and talent)
23:33:34 <int-e> shachaf: only for about 1/200 of a second.
23:34:07 <HackEso> EARTH HAS 4 CORNER SIMULTANEOUS 4-DAY TIME CUBE IN ONLY 24 HOUR ROTATION. 4 CORNER DAYS, CUBES 4 QUAD EARTH. Bible A Lie & Word Is Lies. Navel Connects 4 Corner 4s. God Is Born Of A Mother - She Left Belly B. Signature. Your dirty lying teachers use only the midnight to midnight 1 day (ignoring 3 other days) Time to not foul (already wrong) bible time. Lie that corrupts earth you educated stupid fools.
23:34:35 <int-e> so how heavy is that cube and how long does its Schwarzschild radius take?
23:34:50 <int-e> I really don't think conveting units like that is in any way helpful.
23:34:59 <b_jonas> int-e: you'll have to consult the full website for that. there's only so much I could put in the two condensed wisdom entries.
23:35:05 <b_jonas> (the other is "wisdom/gene ray")
23:35:07 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_mass says that it's "frequently useful"
23:35:30 <shachaf> Natural units are the best.
23:35:43 <int-e> . o O ( "frequently" - we know of more than one example. )
23:35:58 <b_jonas> shachaf: yes, in the sense that the gravitational solar mass is useful because in our most precise astronomical measurements, the main term is the sun pulling everything towards it
23:36:30 <b_jonas> so it's a natural mass unit if you want to measure the gravitational mass of other astronomical objects
23:37:21 <b_jonas> and we know the gravitational mass of the sun pretty precisely, but no the inertial mass, because we only have like four or five digits of G, the gravitational constant, with the best measurements, so kilogram is *not* a good unit for gravitational masses
23:37:32 <b_jonas> (this wasn't obvious to me until David Madore explained on his blog)
23:37:43 <b_jonas> that's why we do need some unit for gravitational mass
23:38:40 <shachaf> I should learn how gravity works.
23:39:14 <b_jonas> and as proof that people actually think that, that NASA website thing where you can query a shitton of astronomical ephemeron data, that one offers you to format masses in the unit of your choice between solar mass and kg
23:39:41 <b_jonas> so the above means that the numbers in solar mass are more accurate
23:40:48 <b_jonas> hmm, actually we know six digits. that's quite impressive.
23:41:12 <b_jonas> is that a relative or an absolute figure?
23:42:31 <b_jonas> shachaf: if you consider general relativity as part of that, then you're up for a very difficult task
23:44:01 <b_jonas> so much that even physicists don't know some of the details, especially some things about very strong gravitational fields in black holes, whether time travel is possible by bending space-time using gravity and why not, and how general realtivity can be combined in any consistent way (let alone in the real world) with quantum mechanics
23:44:07 <lambdabot> LOWI 272320Z AUTO VRB03KT 9999 FEW050 24/19 Q1022
23:44:14 <lambdabot> KOAK 272253Z 28017KT 10SM FEW020 BKN180 BKN200 22/12 A3008 RMK AO2 SLP187 T02220117
23:44:22 <b_jonas> also I'm not a physicists, so some of that could be wrong
23:44:54 <b_jonas> I just go by the impression I get from the popular descriptions by David Madore and John Baez
23:45:46 <b_jonas> also there are a lot of things that phyisicists do know about general relativity, but it's complicated in a mathematical way
23:45:58 <b_jonas> you need some sort of fancy tensor calculus stuff to understand it
23:46:06 <HackEso> general relativity? ¯\(°_o)/¯
23:46:09 <HackEso> special relativity? ¯\(°_o)/¯
23:46:45 <shachaf> `` doag | grep -i relativity
23:46:48 <HackEso> 11672:2018-12-11 <oerjän> slwd tanebvention//s;, special relativity;; \ 9258:2016-10-13 <shachäf> slwd tanebvention//s#the triverse#special relativity# \ 598:2012-07-19 <elliott__̈_> addquote <itidus21> elliott___: we have been calling a book new for 2000 years and it took einstein to figure out relativity
23:47:26 <HackEso> 769) <itidus21> elliott___: we have been calling a book new for 2000 years and it took einstein to figure out relativity
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00:35:25 <int-e> Yeah God disinherited Moses or something. News at 11.
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00:44:17 <HackEso> 1/2:116) (in #irp) <Sgeo> Flonk, ask on #esoteric? <Flonk> Sgeo: yeah well its C++, so not that esoteric :P \ 417) <itidus20> It's ok guys. I am doing what I can to keep my psyche and ego surviving. All the while the threat of ww3 looms, the mortality of family and friends(loved ones?) and sooner or llater my own mortality. \ 122) <fungot> pikhq: it was fragrant with the scent of abomination. hear a speech declaring a holy war, is the man insane? some i
00:44:22 <HackEso> 2/2:diot missionary gets himself killed, some man writes some gibberish about the shape of a dragon, wonse?" \ 1103) <boily> aaaaaurgh. you're making me think on a Monday! that shouldn't be happening! \ 1156) <fungot> boily: i'm robert fnord. here take a piece of freenode furniture
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05:29:33 <esowiki> [[Talk:Rook]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63770&oldid=63767 * A * (+279) /* Request */
05:30:30 <esowiki> [[Talk:Rook]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63771&oldid=63770 * A * (-25)
05:31:03 <esowiki> [[Talk:Rook]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63772&oldid=63771 * A * (+3) /* Suggestion to FF alternative */ grm
05:32:47 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63773&oldid=63766 * A * (+2) /* C++ Codegolfed */ Interesting. C++ has 91 dialects.
05:41:12 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63774&oldid=63773 * A * (-5) /* C++ Codegolfed */ Broken when 0 is decremented
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06:19:47 <salpynx> int-e: misencephalobinea and encephalobineophobia?
06:23:37 <salpynx> b_jonas: sorry, those terms should have been directed at you, misencephalobinea for your condition, hatred of rather than fear
06:29:00 <salpynx> arseniiv: I think I was focusing too much on the trees in Punctree. I don't quite get the zippers yet. "In this language there are no trees" throws me, I thought I understood how / \ ^ applied to trees, but haven't got the zipping. Diagrams help me visualise, but I'm not seeing the zippers for the trees
06:42:47 <salpynx> imode: based on our graph discussion the other day I have started working on on 2D string rewriting concept, which ends up being a kind of graph rewriting. User:Salpynx/Sator_Resatus
06:45:21 <salpynx> I have somewhat rushed into it, and probably won't get to an interpreter anytime soon, but want to finish the syntax parser and 2D output (inTeX?) as well as get a better understanding of how the replacement rules should be applied. It's an experiment.
06:46:56 <salpynx> imode: Thanks for the TinkerPop links. I've be looking into that as a general tool for more useful work. Are you a TinkerPop user, or just finding while researching graph concepts?
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07:29:43 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63775&oldid=63762 * A * (+306) /* Write some nonsense here */
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08:44:14 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63776&oldid=63775 * A * (+271)
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11:36:35 <esowiki> [[EML]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=63777 * A * (+698) Created page with "[[EML]] stands for English-based Meta Language. It was created to help beginners to understand the syntax of a language without special help. ==Examples== ===Describe EML.===..."
11:36:48 <esowiki> [[EML]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63778&oldid=63777 * A * (+18)
11:37:02 <esowiki> [[EML]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63779&oldid=63778 * A * (+17) /* Describe EML. */
11:38:28 <esowiki> [[EML]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63780&oldid=63779 * A * (+67)
11:41:25 <esowiki> [[EML]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63781&oldid=63780 * A * (-48) /* Describe EML. */
11:41:46 <esowiki> [[EML]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63782&oldid=63781 * A * (+1) /* Describe EML. */
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13:36:47 <esowiki> [[Talk:Rook]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63783&oldid=63772 * Areallycoolusername * (+174)
13:49:20 <esowiki> [[Talk:Rook]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63784&oldid=63783 * A * (+317)
13:52:17 <esowiki> [[Rook]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63785&oldid=63768 * A * (-268) I am starting to wonder whether my version is valid or not.
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15:17:47 <esowiki> [[User:ThisIsTheFoxe]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=63786 * ThisIsTheFoxe * (+1409) Created my profile page....
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16:54:52 <HackEso> Cathedral of Chalesm? ¯\(°_o)/¯
16:57:06 <esowiki> [[DubDubMachine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=63787 * ThisIsTheFoxe * (+4013) I created this Page for the 3rd time now. Pls work!! And pls fix that bug when you edit and are logged out that is warns you to save EVERYTHING!!
16:59:32 <esowiki> [[DubDubMachine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63788&oldid=63787 * ThisIsTheFoxe * (+19) ed
17:00:34 <esowiki> [[DubDubMachine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63789&oldid=63788 * ThisIsTheFoxe * (+0) either i'm dumb or too tired.. sorry last change is the same as this: Change the link of the author
17:01:24 <esowiki> [[DubDubMachine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63790&oldid=63789 * ThisIsTheFoxe * (+19) aaaand another one..
17:04:11 <esowiki> [[DubDubMachine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63791&oldid=63790 * ThisIsTheFoxe * (+72) added brakelines <br>?
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22:41:51 <zzo38> I was having trouble with the hard drive. I tried changing the superblock setting and now it boots, although I want to copy the files to DVDs as soon as possible.
22:49:27 <zzo38> Should the --numeric-owner option be used when making and restoring backups for use when they must be restored without the /etc/passwd and so on available?
22:49:55 <zzo38> Presumably the -S option should also be used. (I used both options last time, so probably I should use them now, too)
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23:00:09 <zzo38> Is it possible to tell tar to only copy files newer than a specific date?
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23:02:31 <zzo38> I have a previous backup, and I wrote the date on them: 2018-03-22. So, if I can only backup files modified after 2018-03-21 then it should be suitable.
23:05:27 <b_jonas> zzo38: you can probably use find ... -print0 | tar --null -I - iirc
23:05:41 <b_jonas> might be -T instead of -I , I don't recall the syntax on top of my head
23:05:46 <b_jonas> darn it, that makes the xkcd true
23:06:04 <b_jonas> I'm usually good enough with invoking tar, though annoyed that --no-same-owner --no-same-permissions is so long
23:06:15 <b_jonas> oh, and you need an extra option to turn off recursion, or else -I is really silly
23:06:18 <shachaf> imo why is software so bad
23:06:31 <b_jonas> shachaf: it beats 7z's argument parsing any time
23:06:56 <shachaf> i was certainly not claiming that there's no worse software out there
23:07:23 <b_jonas> no, I like 7z in general, just not its command-line interface. I should eventually modify its source to keep the core but make the command-line saner or something.
23:07:46 <b_jonas> tar -c --null --no-recursion -T -
23:08:05 <b_jonas> I actually use tar|7z for my backups
23:08:19 <b_jonas> with that -T thing to tell which files to include
23:08:56 <b_jonas> I can't use just 7z, because it doesn't save unix file attributes, and it acknowledges that in the docs clearly
23:08:58 <zzo38> Yes I think you mean -T which I have just specified now anyways. (Although I did not specify the date; since I did not do so, it will copy everything, but it should still fit hopefully. If it does not, I will try again with the date)
23:09:01 <b_jonas> but tar does, and I can pipe it
23:09:05 <fizzie> My tar has a few options for directly including only new files; --newer and --newer-mtime.
23:09:10 <fizzie> https://www.gnu.org/software/tar/manual/html_section/tar_52.html
23:09:50 <b_jonas> zzo38: I use https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=922051 to split the backup to archives around size 100 megabytes (size varies, because I measure uncompressed size, and even that only approximately)
23:09:56 <b_jonas> that way I can split it up to DVDs then
23:10:04 <zzo38> I am using gzip for compression, since I know Partedmagic has gzip, but I am not so sure about 7z.
23:10:09 <b_jonas> store the full backup on hard disk between, though technically you could use multiple passes
23:12:53 <zzo38> O no, I may have forgotten something: does tar read hidden files in subdirectories by default?
23:14:43 <zzo38> Nevermind; I found hidden files listed when doing tar -t, such as ".npm/registry.npmjs.org/parse-rdf/.cache.json" so I can see that it does have them.
23:15:35 <b_jonas> zzo38: since I use --no-recursion -T - to feed a list of files, I don't think that question matters there
23:16:05 <b_jonas> what matters is whether the program I use to generate the list of files includes them, and it does if you mean dotfiles
23:16:12 <zzo38> OK. If I do it later with dates then I would need --no-recursion
23:16:16 <zzo38> Yes I do mean dot files
23:18:02 <zzo38> I have set up a separate backup partition on the hard drive, which contains the compressed tape archives used for backup. Now I can put it on a DVD.
23:19:39 <zzo38> Since SMART attributes 197 and 198 have a nonzero raw value, then presumably I should copy it to a fresh hard drive as soon as possible, I think, or should I just make a backup and postpone copying to the new hard drive (until when?)?
23:19:48 <zzo38> I am going to make a backup regardless, though.
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23:23:44 <zzo38> I alsoo used --ignore-failed-read; does it normally display error messages due to failed reads in such a case? I seem to remember that it does; this time I got no error messages.
23:28:20 <b_jonas> zzo38: are you sure it's not a hardware error that the hard disk is starting to have?
23:29:03 <zzo38> I think it may be some kind of hardware error.
23:30:01 <zzo38> What command should I use to record it onto a DVD?
23:32:18 <zzo38> SMART attribute 198 is now 10, and attribute 197 is now 2 but it was as high as 13 before.
23:33:40 <int-e> Current_Pending_Sector going down is expected... the sectors are rewritten, and potentially relocated (in which case Offline_Uncorrectable should go up?).
23:33:42 <b_jonas> zzo38: probably xorriso, but there are other programs that can do it too
23:36:39 <zzo38> I tried growisofs now, but now it says file is too big (but -allow-limited-size would give it the correct file size with UDF but not ISO, if the file would fit on the DVD at all, which I am not quite sure of).
23:36:53 <zzo38> int-e: Offline_Unforrectable is not going up; it remains at ten.
23:38:05 <int-e> TBH I'm unsure what that number really means. I'm more certain about the pending sectors... those are uncorrectable read errors... either because something disturbed the magnetization of the platter (alpha particles?) which can be fixed by rewriting, or because the magnetic material is somehow breaking down, in which case it can't be firxed.
23:38:22 <zzo38> The man page for genisoimage also says "UDF support is currently in alpha status and for this reason, it is not possible to create UDF-only images"; what should I do? Use UDF mode anyways?
23:38:44 <int-e> (writes to neighbouring sectors are more likely to destroy a sector, I suppose)
23:39:25 <zzo38> I suppose I will try anyways to record it in this mode (if it doesn't work, I have several more DVDs), and then try to read it back to see if it is working OK, I suppose.
23:41:35 <zzo38> My previous backups are three DVDs: "Backup of /home", "Backup of /var", and "Backup of everything except /home and /var". (It won't fit everything on one DVD.)
23:43:05 <shachaf> People still use optical media?
23:44:37 <b_jonas> zzo38: I dunno, my tar chunks are small enough to not encouter such a limitation
23:44:47 <zzo38> I also have a CD with Parted Magic
23:44:55 <b_jonas> zzo38: but I still suggest xorriso
23:45:21 <b_jonas> install from source from http://libburnia-project.org/
23:45:37 <b_jonas> or from distribution, whatever
00:01:44 <fizzie> It would be convenient for bind statistics file to mention how long a period of time those statistics cover. I guess it might be the same as the process start time -- but then again, maybe not.
00:03:11 <zzo38> Which discs are better, +R or -R discs? I have -R discs, but I don't know what is better (and in what way).
00:04:09 <zzo38> Also, it seem that Parted Magic does not have a "umount" command, or, at least I tried it and it doesn't work. How do you unmount in Parted Magic?
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00:07:23 <zzo38> O, I found apparently, +R and +RW discs allow resuming interrupted recordings with high accuracy.
00:10:51 <zzo38> Also, what I have read is that DVD+RW discs apparently have a different kind of menus than ordinary DVD menus; the VCR/DVD combo I have says it can record DVD+RW menus but does not have the ability to play back DVD+RW menus (although the recorded video can still be played back).
00:10:51 <b_jonas> zzo38: these days it no longer matters whether you use -R or +R disks. it used to matter for old drives or drivers that were somewhat buggy, but that was like a decade ago.
00:14:57 <b_jonas> heck, my computer is pretty old, and the DVD writer is like the most reliable piece of it
00:15:47 <b_jonas> I wish I could keep it for the new computer I'll buy because it has served me so well, but alas, I can't, because it's an ATA one, and these days motherboards only have SATA and ESATA and USB connectors
00:16:03 <b_jonas> so when I buy the new computer, I'll have to buy a cheap DVD writer
00:17:23 <b_jonas> the motherboard is buggy, the RAM and cpu are not powerful enough, the CPU fan is terrible
00:18:06 <kmc> can't you get a SATA to ATA bridge?
00:18:15 <kmc> or a USB to ATA bridge
00:18:25 <b_jonas> kmc: probably not for as cheap as a DVD writer these days
00:18:41 <b_jonas> it used to be fancy new technology, but now it's just commonplace, so cheap they put it everywhere
00:19:20 <b_jonas> I'll just get an USB DVD writer
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00:26:41 <kmc> i thought there was some reason you wanted to keep this drive in particular
00:27:14 <b_jonas> it's the first DVD drive that worked really well, that wasn't buggy
00:27:30 <b_jonas> but these days new ones work well too
00:28:05 <kmc> I remember when I first got a DVD writer
00:28:07 <kmc> it was hot shit
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00:28:52 <int-e> What do you even do with a DVD writer, DVDs are so small.
00:29:45 <kmc> I had about 100 GB total of hard drive space and I downloaded a lot of movies / TV shows
00:30:06 <b_jonas> int-e: not much these days
00:30:08 <kmc> so it was pretty great to get a 25 pack of DVD-R's and double that
00:30:15 <b_jonas> int-e: but every CD reader is a DVD writer now
00:30:29 <kmc> this was early 00s
00:30:38 <shachaf> I have a Blu-Ray disc that has a film I'd like to watch.
00:30:42 <shachaf> But I don't have a reader.
00:31:07 <kmc> I wrote a Perl script to find approximate knapsack problem solutions so I could fit more pirated stuff onto a given number of DVDs
00:31:32 <shachaf> It's a DVD of Jim Knopf (supposedly with English subtitles) that I ordered from Germany.
00:31:48 <shachaf> I couldn't find it in any other format.
00:32:17 <b_jonas> shachaf: can you find someone else who has a blu-ray reader and copy it?
00:32:34 <shachaf> I asked several people and none of them seem to have one.
00:32:44 <shachaf> (And why would they? Optical media is passé.)
00:33:24 <b_jonas> shachaf: there's this photo scanning company that makes a living of reading video casettes and lots of other old kinds of media in professional quality and digitizing them
00:33:33 <b_jonas> also scanning large amounts of paper documents into usable forms
00:33:35 <shachaf> I'm not in a big hurry to watch it.
00:33:49 <shachaf> One day someone will come along with a Blu-Ray reader.
00:34:08 <shachaf> kmc: do you know a bunch of things about SAT solvers
00:34:39 <b_jonas> https://memorescue.co.uk/ , I've no clue if they read blue-ray, but they probably do
00:35:13 <b_jonas> I payed them to scan a few of the best paper positive family photos we had, including like two dozen of my parents' wedding pics
00:35:29 <b_jonas> of those ones we have multiple copies of positives, but no negatives
00:36:05 <b_jonas> there are other photos of which the negatives may be available somewhere in the attic, or at least so my mother claims but I don't completely trust her on that
00:36:33 <shachaf> I'm not going to send those folks my disc.
00:37:28 <b_jonas> they're headquartered here, so for me it wasn't really sending as walking into their shop
00:40:47 <shachaf> do you know what else is tg
00:40:51 <shachaf> getting excited about things
00:43:26 <shachaf> it's an enjoyable feeling, some kind of anti-cynicism thing
00:54:22 <fizzie> I bought an external USB DVD reader/writer just recently.
00:55:01 <fizzie> https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01878ZQ8W/ if you want to get one someone else has.
00:55:07 <fizzie> I think they're all pretty much the same.
00:55:29 <fizzie> It comes with two of those fancy M-DISCs.
00:55:51 <oerjan> <int-e> . o O ( We need a fancy Greek translation of "brainfuck" so that we can append -phobia and have some fun. ) <-- a bit of cobbling together of terms gives me encephalobinema, except βίνημα means something innocent in modern greek
00:55:53 <shachaf> Ah, I missed those messages.
00:56:08 <shachaf> I have a DVD reader/writer. I thought it could do Blu-Ray but it turned out not.
00:56:27 <oerjan> but is attested to be rude in ancient grafitti, it seems.
00:57:37 <b_jonas> oerjan: arseniiv already said something close to that
00:58:17 <arseniiv_> on Punctree: my stack organization is awful, I was implementing it for hours and yet it’s not done
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00:58:45 <arseniiv> though I was changing implementations a couple of times
00:58:48 <oerjan> shachaf: plinthencephalos hth
00:59:04 <b_jonas> https://esolangs.org/logs/2019-06-28.html#lA
00:59:06 <arseniiv> on the other hand, trees are nice
01:00:25 <arseniiv> b_jonas: don’t confuse me with salpynx, our names have a different letter count! :D
01:00:33 <oerjan> b_jonas: i was trying hard to make the bine- have a suffix to make it a proper noun, i'm not sure salpynx did that.
01:00:54 <oerjan> (proper as in appropriate)
01:01:37 <oerjan> because bineo is a verb, which would seem awkward as i don't think greek confuses nouns and verbs like english do.
01:02:29 <b_jonas> perhaps you need a translation that's less literal?
01:02:55 <shachaf> I seem to have this DVD drive: https://www.amazon.com/Samsung-Portable-External-SE-218CB-RSBS/dp/B00DBV28TG
01:03:08 <shachaf> I have no special comments on it. It seems to work.
01:03:58 <oerjan> b_jonas: i need a translation that is grammatically correct *twitch*
01:04:08 <HackEso> Manglophobia is the fear of horribly mangled "Greek" neologisms.
01:04:43 <b_jonas> I don't really see why it has to be greek anyway
01:04:51 <HackEso> 9652:2016-11-09 <oerjän> learn Manglophobia is the fear of horribly mangled "Greek" neologisms.
01:04:53 <oerjan> of course i don't know ancient greek enough to be _sure_ i got the compounding right.
01:05:03 <oerjan> b_jonas: so it fits with -phobia
01:05:18 <b_jonas> oerjan: use some other word instead of phobia
01:06:08 <oerjan> b_jonas: it's supposed to be a medical term and english pretty much _never_ uses germanic stems for those (unless it's an old disease name)
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01:06:25 <b_jonas> oerjan: could be latin then?
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01:06:31 <b_jonas> how's it a medical term anyway
01:06:43 <oerjan> b_jonas: it's a joke medical term.
01:06:46 <b_jonas> isn't it like an esolang term
01:07:07 <oerjan> "fear of brainfuck", if it were a recognized disease
01:07:52 <b_jonas> could you use "P'" instead of "brainfuck"? maybe it's easier to translate
01:08:25 <b_jonas> https://esolangs.org/wiki/P%E2%80%B2%E2%80%B2
01:09:07 <oerjan> anyway, i took the point of this exercise to be finding out what it would be called if someone invented a "greek" medical term for it.
01:10:52 <oerjan> P'' seems to consist entirely of characters that are not greek tdnh
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01:12:33 <oerjan> oh if we go with -binema, the -ma needs to grow a -t- in compounds so it would be encephalobinematophobia. just rolls off the tongue.
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01:25:14 <oerjan> <int-e> shachaf: Nothing wrong with multiplying a weight by a height. If you divide by a Times Square, you get a new ton. <-- *SWAT* -----###
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03:45:02 <shachaf> how come i never get swatted
04:13:23 <oerjan> maybe you only make fun puns and not horrible ones hth
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04:50:53 <salpynx> oerjan: I was deliberately keeping to the verb form because I couldn't think of a noun formed from a thematic verb, other than a participle, which seemed wrong.
04:51:07 <salpynx> I thought of bf as claiming to be 'encephalobinetic', (cf εμεω and emetic) and phobias seem to apply generally to 'that sort of thing'
04:51:51 <salpynx> perhaps I should have suggested 'encephalobinetophobia'
04:53:26 <salpynx> I'm not sure about βινημα. εμεω (now that I've looked) has εμετος (m) as a noun for sickness or vomiting
04:58:09 <salpynx> miso- is the prefix for hate, and when combined with a vowel becomes misenecephalo-. The mis- for doing it badly is Germanic I believe, so wouldn't be attached to Greek roots. The -ea I added in misencephalobinea was euphonic and I didn't think about it too much.
05:02:38 <salpynx> b_jonas: You mentioned 𝒫 ″ earlier, I thought of suggesting that to you as a way to avoid bf with your Consumer Society application. Is that still too close?
05:05:21 <salpynx> I have used 𝒫 ″ for a TC proof in a Gödel numbering language (based on Lenguage) I'm working on to cheekily avoid referencing bf.
05:07:46 <salpynx> I like using bf for Gödel numbering because it is so convenient. Recent discussions have got me thinking of using Iota -> Jot -> Zot to create a Brainfoctal like system for working with Gödel numbering and avoid the bf cliche.
05:23:44 <oerjan> my google search also threw up βῖνος (both in https://lsj.gr/wiki/coito )
05:23:58 <salpynx> Aristophanes uses βινειν in a coarse sense which seems like the best translation. I can't find βινημα anywhere that isn't the result of bad OCR for πινημα or something else
05:29:05 <oerjan> you've obviously studied greek more than me, anyway
05:31:53 <oerjan> i was just looking stuff up in wiktionary and analogizing the transformation ἀθλέω → ἄθλημα to βινέω
05:32:47 <oerjan> and then found some hit. although googling again now i cannot find the grafitti mention i saw earlier
05:33:54 <oerjan> oh wait it's on the same site i linked, when clicking on the word
05:37:10 <salpynx> The source for the βινημα and βινος seems to be a Spanish dictionary, my vocab comes from LSJ (English) lexicon. I'll dig a bit more to see if I can find the sources
05:37:23 <fizzie> Why is everything terrible if you want to be a cheapskate? I've been looking for a free secondary DNS provider (after the current one went paid), and they're all broken.
05:37:52 <fizzie> In particular, he.net says "validation successful" but just doesn't load (forum chatter suggests because they find current DNSSEC algorithm types invalid), ClouDNS weirdly makes secondary/slave DNS a paid feature, DNS4.pro just says "Registration closed" on the sign-up form, BuddyNS has a too low limit of 300k requests/month, 1984hosting says absolutely nowhere what to whitelist for zone transfers.
05:37:59 <fizzie> (And pretty much all these problems are discoverable only after making an account.)
05:38:38 <fizzie> I could just use the esolangs.org server as a secondary, but that'd only work for esolangs.org, I don't feel right using it for any other because it's kind of a charity thing.
05:43:46 <salpynx> Funny, here's a paper that explicitly remarks that LSJ is not a good source for words like that. Use a continental dictionary, not an English one https://www.jstor.org/stable/639023
05:44:25 <esowiki> [[DOBELA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63792&oldid=32434 * Stasoid * (+132) /* Implementations */
06:01:02 <salpynx> From a first C graffito from Stabia, "... to obtain a βεινημα". This is the first and only occurrence of the nomen actionis derived from βινω." according to that paper I linked to above (p.59).
06:01:59 <salpynx> I'm learning a lot, mainly about how inadequate my beloved LSJ is
06:06:07 <esowiki> [[DOBELA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63793&oldid=63792 * Stasoid * (+4153) /* Hello! */
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06:11:36 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: 𝒫: not found
06:26:59 <HackEso> [U+1D4AB MATHEMATICAL SCRIPT CAPITAL P] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+2033 DOUBLE PRIME]
06:30:41 <salpynx> that is my attempt at the name of C. Böhm's language. The script capital P is a slightly different form in the original paper (which I cannot find a digital readable version of anywhere, because information isn't free yet), but someone has scanned the characters and made that available.
06:33:43 <salpynx> Has anyone here worked with Iota / Jot / Zot? There doesn
06:34:17 <salpynx> t seem to be even a basic Hello World.
06:38:19 <esowiki> [[Zot]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63794&oldid=46289 * Salpynx * (+23) /* External resources */ archived resource
06:41:58 <esowiki> [[Jot]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63795&oldid=51795 * Salpynx * (+25) /* External resources */ archived resource
06:45:47 <esowiki> [[Jot]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63796&oldid=63795 * Salpynx * (+35) reference Iota
06:50:17 <esowiki> [[Jot]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63797&oldid=63796 * Salpynx * (-35) /* External resources */ turns out the creator still has a current site.
06:51:49 <esowiki> [[Zot]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63798&oldid=63794 * Salpynx * (-36) direct link to current site
06:53:03 <esowiki> [[Chris Barker]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63799&oldid=31885 * Salpynx * (+3) /* External resources */ update personal website
06:56:11 <esowiki> [[Iota]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63800&oldid=63601 * Salpynx * (+34) /* External resources */ more relevant tutorial
07:00:22 <esowiki> [[DOBELA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63801&oldid=63793 * Stasoid * (+0) Old code mixed the rule and reflections from walls, which made it obscure. New code shows the rule more purely.
07:07:12 <esowiki> [[DOBELA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63802&oldid=63801 * Stasoid * (-939) /* Hello! */
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09:55:19 <b_jonas> salpynx: doesn't matter now, because I have invented Consumer Society already, and it would do no good to uninvent it. I was thinking of brainfuck as an example back when I first thought of that syntax trick.
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10:09:04 <b_jonas> also, this channel is weird
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10:40:52 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63803&oldid=63776 * A * (+501) /* Write some nonsense here */
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10:57:16 <salpynx> b_jonas: ah, I thought you were holding back from publishing Consumer Society because some parts weren't polished, and choosing bf or something else was part of that.
10:57:50 <b_jonas> salpynx: oh, some parts aren't polished, that's true, but it doesn't have much to do with bf
11:00:23 <b_jonas> I have to write example program, factor parts of it to a reusable library, then write a reference interpreter, and write detailed documentation
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11:32:56 <esowiki> [[Sign]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=63804 * A * (+2875) The reason FORTRAN has a three-way branch IF (ABC) 1,2,3 is because the machine had a three-way branch, and that way they could generate that in a single instruction.
11:35:37 <esowiki> [[Sign]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63805&oldid=63804 * A * (-316)
11:36:23 <esowiki> [[Sign]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63806&oldid=63805 * A * (-182) /* Syntax */ Uhh...
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16:02:16 <b_jonas> arseniiv: I don't understand that description. what is the < instruction supposed to do in punctree?
16:06:23 <arseniiv> b_jonas: there are three constructions of a tree′: as _, as 2 tree′ tree and as 2 tree tree′, so < filters out the second (and accidently the first too, but it can be remedied by equality testing beforehand). In other words, if the hole is somewhere in the left branch, it returns the argument intact, and if it isn’t, it returns _
16:09:05 <zzo38> I found a computer game on this computer titled "Bugs In Space", but the title doesn't seems to make so much sense. The documentation says it is a text-adventure game, like Rogue or Hack. However, it isn't a text-adventure game, and it isn't a roguelike game either. And, the playfield memory is stored in the visible part of video memory.
16:09:33 <esowiki> [[Punctree]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63807&oldid=63755 * Arseniiv * (+102) clarify <
16:10:41 <int-e> b_jonas: more mundanely, < checks whether the hole is to the left or to the right
16:10:59 <int-e> (_ being the hole)
16:11:18 <arseniiv> b_jonas: in still other words, it filters “zipper-ready” values
16:12:18 <zzo38> The description for an extra life is "Strong You, can't move (keep track of lives)", and the description for a food is "Food, 1 food point", although there are no "food points"; collecting it does nothing except remove the food from the screen (so that objects other than the player can now pass).
16:16:05 <arseniiv> zzo38: a strange game :D seems unfinished
16:17:21 <b_jonas> oh I see! it checks which side of the root the hole is
16:17:42 <b_jonas> though the choice of output looks a bit strange
16:20:22 <b_jonas> so will you be implementing this language? with the zippers implemented as the tree being sliced all through the path from the root to the hole, and each level hanging off that stored in a banker queue, together with directions for which way the path turns, or something?
16:51:34 <lambdabot> EGLL 291620Z AUTO 15011KT 9999 NCD 32/12 Q1012
16:59:22 <arseniiv> b_jonas: yes, exactly my implementation
17:02:11 <arseniiv> I had written all ideal stuff like trees, though that’s all untested, and now I’ve yet to complete it with mundane things like IO and that stack. I was foolish to suggest treating bars as other values in the stack, it makes so much hassle
17:04:34 <arseniiv> I’ll writing it all currently in Jupyter and maybe then it will go into some Python module
17:19:54 <b_jonas> arseniiv: and then you'll be debugging it for about as long as implementing it took for the first place
17:20:13 <b_jonas> I'll have to read the docs to figure out how those stack operations with the bars work
17:23:51 <arseniiv> b_jonas: yeah I was noticing several subtle bugs which would be a pain if left as is, by pure chance
17:25:51 <b_jonas> there's still some things I don't understand in this description
17:26:42 <b_jonas> the ^ / \ operations, how do they represent the pair of the tree and the holey tree? do they store them as the two top elements of the stack?
17:27:10 <b_jonas> or are the elements of the stack supposed to be such pairs?
17:32:38 <b_jonas> and I don't understand how the ? command is supposed to work. what's on the stack when you run the code blocks, and what happens with what they leave on the stack?
17:33:09 <b_jonas> do you just pop all three blocks at the start?
17:46:28 <zzo38> I got some "ext4_mb_generate_buddy" errors on my computer. As far as I can tell, no data is lost. Is it anything serious?
17:50:07 <zzo38> Also, is it possible to make it to store file access times in RAM but not to write them to disk (in order to reduce disk I/O)?
18:00:58 <zzo38> Also, are there checksums for files in ext4?
18:39:02 <zzo38> How many different ranks of poker hands are there if you split each rank into its subranks? For example, I think there are ten subranks of a straight flush (from ace low to a royal flush)
18:39:35 <zzo38> (and including everything lower than a pair, too)
18:41:29 <kmc> and 10 subranks of a regular straight as well
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18:43:13 <kmc> 13*12 = 156 ranks of four-of-a-kind?
18:43:27 <zzo38> Yes, that is what I thought, too.
18:44:57 <kmc> although, the fifth card is actually irrelevant? because you can't have two hands which each have the same 4-of-a-kind
18:45:04 <kmc> but maybe you can in games like hold 'em where some cards are shared
18:45:50 <kmc> full house would be 13*12 as well
18:46:43 <zzo38> Yes, sometimes there are shared cards, or maybe each player draws from a separate deck (not used in any form of poker I know, but potentially possible)
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18:51:11 <zzo38> In Texas Hold'em no more than one player can have a royal flush unless everyone has a royal flush (if there are three players, it is not possible for only two players to have a royal flush), but you can have two players with the same four matching cards for four of a kind but one player might have a higher fifth card.
18:56:18 <b_jonas> and you can't have six players have three or four of a kind in six different ranks, so how do you count the different fours of a kind and threes of a kind possible? I don't even understand what the question is supposed to be
18:57:57 <b_jonas> and I think in some variants of poker, there are rules where if two players have hands that are close but not identical, they split the stakes of that round rather than determining which hand is better
18:58:33 <zzo38> For the purpose of my question, assume there are an unlimited number of players and that each player draws from a separate deck (of 52 cards only; no jokers) and that standard ranking is in use.
18:59:16 <zzo38> (You will not necessarily actually do this; it is just one way in which the conditions I intend of the question are in use.)
19:00:18 <b_jonas> zzo38: in that case is the answer just the number of different hands possible, binomial(52,5)?
19:02:24 <zzo38> No, since some hands are tied with each other, such as the four royal flushes all tie with each other, and broadways tie with each other, and so on.
19:09:05 <zzo38> Do you know what is the rule in Texas Hold'em if there are three players, each bets 111 and then one player folds, so now the pot has 333, and then the two remaining players tie, what happens?
19:12:28 <b_jonas> I don't know, I'd presume both of those players would get half of the stakes, which is 166.5
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19:14:46 <zzo38> But what if the points are required to be integers? (Sometimes they must be a multiple of a larger number, but that is not relevant for freezeouts, in which you can just call the smallest unit 1)
19:15:49 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't think they are required to be integers. stakes and raises are required to be multiples of the starting stake for the round, but the fractions still matter when someone goes all in, which they can do even if their remaining money isn't a multiple of what they're required to be
19:16:07 <b_jonas> and other players can also hold the same amount if someone goes all in, provided they have the money
19:16:33 <b_jonas> but if you insist on integers, then I suggest you carry the remainder to the stake of the next round
19:17:09 <zzo38> Yes, although you can't split the chips into units smaller than the smallest units; if you are betting cash, then you can't split the cash smaller than one cent
19:19:01 <zzo38> It was my idea too though, to carry any remainder to the next round
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20:04:10 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> the ^ / \ operations, how do they represent the pair of the tree and the holey tree? do they store them as the two top elements of the stack? => ah, no, no. Earlier int-e asked about the same thing; I reprezent a zipper (t′ t) as a holey tree 2 t′ t, it’s a nice opportunity, it’s naturally a pair
20:05:49 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> do you just pop all three blocks at the start? => yeah. I’ll add a comment that all command arguments are popped before it’s executed
20:07:15 <arseniiv> then, when a block is runned, the stack is as it was before, but the evaluation of commands from the previous code is suspended while the block runs, then the stack again is not perturbed in any way and the previous code resumes to run
20:07:43 <arseniiv> I think FALSE treats these blocks analogously, and some Forth variants which have them, too
20:11:11 <esowiki> [[Punctree]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63808&oldid=63807 * Arseniiv * (+376) /* Syntax */ clarify
20:15:07 <arseniiv> I mean, both evaluation of blocks and evaluation of control-flow commands (all are popped beforehand)
20:15:50 <arseniiv> also I would cheat and wouldn’t convert code to trees (or back) if there is no necessity
20:16:30 <arseniiv> technically it would give us a language with two data types and an implicit conversion, but… well…
20:17:08 <arseniiv> let’s treat as a secret interpreter optimization
20:22:55 <b_jonas> document the pair thing too
20:46:11 <arseniiv> it’s already elaborated after yesterday’s int-e question :)
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21:11:28 <esowiki> [[Talk:Rook]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63809&oldid=63784 * Areallycoolusername * (+135)
21:17:48 <zzo38> The Microsoft QuickBASIC compiler does not have very well optimization; for example, it reloads the segment register for each PEEK and POKE, even though it should not have to do that.
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21:20:17 <b_jonas> arseniiv: well... it might be better if it mentioned that at the list of statements, but whatever
21:20:50 <zzo38> (It also clears the high half of the register when doing PEEK even in cases where the high half isn't used anyways.)
21:21:09 <b_jonas> zzo38: but it has functions to call into machine language routines, so you can just use those for the most important inner loops if you want
21:21:46 <b_jonas> and VARPTR and VARSEG functions to get the address of variables, and a documented representation for strings, so you can bridge the basic data with the machine language data
21:22:39 <zzo38> Yes, although on the DOS computer I do not have any other compiler that I can use with it, and do not know the file format for the files to do it by myself either.
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21:23:10 <b_jonas> but in the end, it's supposed to be a simple language for what then counted as high-level graphical programs, which is why it has some fancy graphical builtins, but not a very good high-performance programming language
21:23:11 <zzo38> Yes, I know of VARPTR and VARSEG, and the string representation.
21:24:26 <b_jonas> zzo38: what do you mean? there are native pascal and C compilers on DOS. they also don't optimize very well, but the C compilers are at least better then BASIC, and come with fewer overhead because they're careful with what they link in,
21:24:33 <b_jonas> and they too can interface easily with machine language code
21:24:57 <zzo38> (I think I have also used VARPTR$ to compare by-reference arguments)
21:25:29 <zzo38> b_jonas: But I do not have any of those, nor the assembler that can be linked with BASIC codes in this way.
21:26:26 <zzo38> (The BASIC compiler can output a assembly code dump, and some optimizations can be done using that, in case I will make my own optimizer for it, but I don't know how to compile the result into a .OBJ file)
21:27:18 <b_jonas> zzo38: if you don't have a compiler, you may have to get one from the internet. it's pretty hard to buy them now.
21:27:33 <b_jonas> termbot had those compilers
21:27:53 <b_jonas> well, the assembler comes with the compiler
21:29:11 <zzo38> If I have a assembler and learn enough about the x86 code then I could use that.
21:30:40 <zzo38> Also, how can I do more precise timing in QuickBASIC? I have used SOUND for timing, but if you are using other sounds already then that won't work.
21:30:47 <b_jonas> for learning about the PC and DOS environment and x86, a good book is the one linked at https://esolangs.org/wiki/Y86#References
21:31:28 <b_jonas> I don't think it has builtins for more precise timing. you might need to call machine code subroutines for that.
21:33:28 <zzo38> What machine code subroutines, though? Using PEEK to read the system timer counter is not more precise than TIMER.
21:34:29 <b_jonas> dunno, for that you'd have to read about the hardware stuff from that book or other books
21:35:26 <zzo38> Fortunately I have a book describing the PC hardware
21:48:36 <zzo38> Reprogramming the system timer might do butwould cause other problems, probably.
21:50:24 <b_jonas> zzo38: you can try using the video card, it has a timer to advance between scanlines
21:53:29 <zzo38> Can the number of frames be counted? Also, will this work on DOSBOX as well?
21:53:58 <b_jonas> I don't think it counts frames
22:01:06 <fizzie> I don't know how portable it is, but on some circumstances you might be able to use channel 1 of the PIT, without affecting the other uses (system timer interrupt generation, PC speaker).
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22:01:53 <fizzie> There's also the more modern HPET.
22:03:34 <fizzie> And on modern hardware (Pentium and later) there's always the TSC.
22:03:52 <kmc> I wonder if you can use RDTSC[P] from real mode.
22:05:10 <fizzie> The manual sort of implies that probably.
22:05:36 <fizzie> "When in protected or virtual 8086 mode, the time stamp disable (TSD) flag in register CR4 restricts the use of the RDTSC instruction as follows."
22:06:16 <fizzie> Which you could read to mean otherwise it's not restricted.
22:07:04 <fizzie> Oh, for RDTSCP it even explicitly says that. "When in real-address mode, the RDTSCP instruction is always enabled."
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22:13:23 <zzo38> How to do the timing with the video card?
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22:15:32 <b_jonas> zzo38: read which scan line it is in using its IO register interface, that way you can track time as long as you read at least once per frame
22:15:56 <b_jonas> that's exposed so that you can update during vertical retrace
22:21:44 <fizzie> There's also an interrupt you can enable at the start of the vertical retrace, which is apparently something introduced in EGA, supported on VGA but not properly working in DOSBox or included in many of the VGA programming references available on the interwebs.
22:21:54 <fizzie> Or so says http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?62049-The-myth-of-the-vertical-retrace-interrupt-on-EGA-VGA
22:22:35 <zzo38> I will want to ensure that the program will work properly on DOSBOX, so, maybe it won't do.
22:33:22 <fizzie> Right. Poking at the DOSBox source, looks like it indeed only triggers the IRQ if the machine is set to EGA mode. And I don't know where in VGA registers the scan line is exposed. (There's a "vertical retrace is on" bit in the Input Status #1 Register, but that's just that bit.
22:34:13 <fizzie> (In case it helps, http://www.osdever.net/FreeVGA/home.htm is what I've always used to look up VGA programming materials.)
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22:34:43 <int-e> Hmm can the 8253 counter be read? That would give a 1.2 MHz resolution.
22:36:02 <b_jonas> I wonder, doesn't the CGA expose a counter that has a longer cycle than one frame (or two frame for interlaced)? It must have some such timer internally for blinking the cursor
22:37:11 <int-e> apparently so: https://wiki.osdev.org/Programmable_Interval_Timer#Reading_The_Current_Count
22:38:31 <fizzie> I guess. You'd have to read it at least as often as the channel's counter is reset, though.
22:39:50 <int-e> Well this is the same chip that's driving the 18.2Hz timer interrupt which already increments a counter.
22:47:12 <int-e> (It would still be messy to use. You can't just read the global timer counter and the current PIT counter; you also have to figure out whether there was an interrupt inbetween these two operations.)
22:48:32 <b_jonas> int-e: or just disable interrupts between the two reads, because that's simpler
22:49:24 <int-e> because the question is whether the PIT internal counter overflowed or not.
22:50:23 <fizzie> I guess if using the SOUND command was an option, so's probably busy-looping and looking at the counter often enough.
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00:40:42 <lambdabot> ENVA 300020Z 09003KT 9999 FEW001 BKN022 11/11 Q1009 RMK WIND 670FT 25007KT
00:40:59 <lambdabot> LOWI 300020Z AUTO VRB01KT 9999 NSC 18/13 Q1020
00:41:10 <int-e> oerjan: a bit humid, perhaps
00:41:31 <int-e> not sure it matters at that temperature, especially when one's inside.
00:44:04 <lambdabot> KOAK 292353Z 27010KT 10SM FEW011 BKN200 21/11 A3003 RMK AO2 SLP170 T02060111 10211 20178 58007
00:44:35 <zzo38> If making a DOS program that uses EGA, it could be required that if DOSBOX is used then it must be set to EGA mode, if it uses the interrupt for vertical retrace.
00:45:27 <int-e> oerjan: fyi, virtual swatting is positive reinforcement :P
00:48:57 <zzo38> I think static arrays are not moved around at runtime in QuickBASIC, so maybe an interrupt routine could be stored in there (although it will be necessary to be careful to unset it when the program terminates, even in case of error, I think).
00:51:23 <HackEso> bdsmreclist:* oerjan swats quintopia -----### \ swatter:The swatter is a tool for punishment commonly found in #esoteric. Not to be confused with the saucepan or mapoles. \ userweps:boily has the mapole, oerjan has the swatter
00:51:55 <oerjan> int-e: it indeed doesn't feel that humid inside
00:52:45 <oerjan> <int-e> oerjan: fyi, virtual swatting is positive reinforcement :P <-- scandalous!
00:54:54 <int-e> "A blockchain probably doesn't solve the security problems you think it solves. The security problems it solves are probably not the ones you have." - Schneier on blockchains :)
00:55:12 <int-e> (In February... so a while ago.)
00:56:33 <b_jonas> sure. blockchains are mostly used to solve marketing problems these days, not tech problems
01:12:48 <shachaf> A heffalump or woozle / Is very / Confusil
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01:45:48 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Applesauce * New user account
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04:23:48 <zzo38> How (if any) will the phase of the moon affect your height and your back pain? Is it significant or only minor?
04:24:19 <shachaf> I've had some back pain recently, and today also a headache.
04:24:35 <shachaf> The moon is currently in phase 8. There must be a connection.
04:25:55 <zzo38> The "pom" command says: The Moon is Waning Crescent (9% of Full). I also have a calendar with the phase of the moon, too.
04:26:37 <zzo38> Since it can affect gravity, I thought it might do such thing, but I don't know how much.
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04:34:22 * oerjan skips and jumps the wiki
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04:35:30 <oerjan> that should clean up everything left after the binge.
04:57:19 <esowiki> [[Don't]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=63810 * Cortex * (+564) Created page with "'''Don't''' was a very powerful esolang by [[|User:Cortex]] that had only three commands == Commands == {| class="wikitable" |- ! Command !! What it did |- | <code>H</code> |..."
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08:45:40 <b_jonas> zzo38: excuse me but that seems suspicious
08:45:57 <b_jonas> it is right, new moon is two days from now
08:46:02 <b_jonas> sorry, moon phases are confusing
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13:10:15 <int-e> zzo38: if the moon had any significant effect we wouldn't be allowed to use spring-based balances in trade.
13:11:19 <int-e> (now explain tides)
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13:14:20 <int-e> I guess "scales" is the better word.
13:20:33 <int-e> we're talking about approximately 1/250000 g.
13:23:05 <int-e> But that would be if Earth and Moon stould still. Which they don't.
13:26:38 <int-e> So is what we really experience is the difference in "pull" between the surface of the Earth and its center? That would be even smaller, 1/17M g.
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13:29:34 <int-e> You'll see a larger effect from climbing up a mountain. (1/3k g from climbing 1km).
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13:49:47 <arseniiv> I think the Moon can’t reasonably change the height of someone human enough. If it were something really small, like possibly of a white-dwarf density or more, possibly one could be near enough to experience sufficient tidal force
13:54:35 <arseniiv> though I’m not sure about density. All I know small enough black holes have a sufficiently small event horizon for someone to be torn apart without going under it, and size of the horizon is the lower bound to the size of surface of anything not being a black hole, so if the black hole is big enough to not pull one apart above its horizon, then anything with that mass wouldn’t be able either
13:56:00 <arseniiv> but stellar-mass black holes should have a sufficient mass AFAIR, and moreso the Moon, so the Moon is an open question before we send someone there to test if they return intact
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13:57:20 <arseniiv> wait, I was carried away, I was already talking about hypothetical Moon-mass object, not the real one
14:00:57 <esowiki> [[Don't]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63811&oldid=63810 * A * (+320) Partial
14:05:06 <int-e> arseniiv: humans are not a rigid body
14:05:31 <esowiki> [[Don't]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63812&oldid=63811 * A * (+760) /* Implementation */
14:06:45 <int-e> (it's a known phenomenon that humans are larger in the morning when they get up, and shrink over the course of the day, mostly due to compression of spinal disks, I believe.)
14:08:01 <esowiki> [[Don't]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63813&oldid=63812 * A * (+257) /* Implementation */
14:13:10 <HackEso> The Moon is Waning Crescent (6% of Full)
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14:41:28 <zzo38> Have you played (or considered) poker with different betting limits during different betting rounds during the same hand?
14:42:11 <arseniiv> <int-e> (it's a known phenomenon that humans are larger in the morning when they get up, and shrink over the course of the day, mostly due to compression of spinal disks, I believe.) => yeah, I heard about the spine too
14:42:59 <arseniiv> though I don’t know if this can be meddled with by hanging
14:43:45 <arseniiv> hm this is possibly not the right word
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14:52:24 <arseniiv> int-e: what will be the little-endian case when encoding binary number 110, L ∘ L ∘ R or R ∘ L ∘ L?
14:52:24 <arseniiv> L = 2 _ 0, R = 2 0 _, L ∘ L ∘ R = 2 (2 (2 0 _) 0) 0, R ∘ L ∘ L = 2 0 (2 (2 _ 0) 0)
14:55:37 <arseniiv> I am slightly confused and maybe one should invent another pair of words like “inner-/outer-significant” or something
14:57:20 <arseniiv> though probably they already exist, this is partially a reason behind this question
14:59:46 <esowiki> [[Punctree]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63814&oldid=63808 * Arseniiv * (-23) /* IO */ lessen the straps
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15:21:23 <zzo38> One thing I thought is, in a role playing game such as Dungeons&Dragons or some other system, if you have magic spells to prepare, one idea I have is random by use of cards.
15:22:37 <zzo38> Assume you have fifty-two spells, and using a standard deck of fifty-two cards. Pick up five cards, and then you can discard and draw once as in video poker. The spells you have available to cast are those five cards, and the kind of poker hand you have determines how much power you have available to spend.
15:25:20 <zzo38> (So, more power is achieved if you make a straight flush, but then you also have all the same suit; maybe each suit will be one of the four classical elements, so then you are fixed to one element only.)
15:26:30 <int-e> arseniiv: "don’t need to be, why" <-- it means you can change their height by non-relativistic means.
15:27:31 <int-e> arseniiv: I'd put the LSB at the outermost position
15:28:13 <int-e> arseniiv: that's the R . L . L one, I guess
15:28:32 <arseniiv> but surely a couple ten g’s are harmful to human functioning regardless of is they are rigid body enough
15:29:23 <int-e> not sure I follow... a rigid body wouldn't mind
15:30:05 <int-e> It wouldn't leave much room for life as we know it either, of course.
15:30:23 <arseniiv> yeah, I was exactly about that human would do mind
15:31:51 <arseniiv> <int-e> that's the R . L . L one, I guess => hm, no, the outermost here is R. So L . L . R then, thanks. It seems an implementation I’m writing treats endianness as you put it here, then!
16:14:12 <zzo38> I used to get many errors in dmesg like "usb 1-3: reset high-speed USB device number 2 using ehci_hcd" and "sd 8:0:0:0: [sdb] Asking for cache data failed" (I am not even using that drive though), but now it has stopped. Why is that?
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16:21:58 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, but only in the sense that the betting rule is that if you raise stakes and don't go all in, you have to raise stakes by at least as much as the amount by which the stakes were last raised for that hand of cards, or by the starting stake if it wasn't raised yet
16:26:42 <zzo38> I have thought of using spread limit before the flop, and pot limit after the flop, so that you will not bet so much before the other cards are seen
16:27:19 <zzo38> (This would be for Texas Hold'em; I am not sure about Seven Card Stud)
16:29:43 <zzo38> How do I manually post a message to the list displayed by the "dmesg" command?
16:31:34 <zzo38> Nevermind I figured out how
16:32:21 <zzo38> (I also don't know why sometimes I get messages about the CDROM is not ready, even when I am not trying to use the optical drive.)
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17:07:17 <arseniiv> maybe someone knows: is there a simple way to do IO with stdin/stdout in Python bytewise?
17:08:25 <fizzie> It was something like sys.stdout.buffer.write(b'foo').
17:08:52 <arseniiv> fizzie: thanks, I’ll look at this!
17:09:05 <fizzie> "To write or read binary data from/to the standard streams, use the underlying binary buffer object. For example, to write bytes to stdout, use sys.stdout.buffer.write(b'abc')."
17:09:08 <fizzie> https://docs.python.org/3/library/sys.html
17:11:38 <arseniiv> ah, indeed! :) I was reading that page but hadn’t read to this point
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17:17:24 <zzo38> I mentioned before I had ideas about how to design a better program language than C, that can use all features of LLVM, and I thought one thing (which perhaps could be implemented by the use of macros, so doesn't need to be a built-in feature, perhaps), if you define a function then you might also define what its reverse is, in case you have a macro to automatically reverse any functions already used in case one of them is an error.
17:23:03 <b_jonas> zzo38: how about C++ with the usual extensions on gcc? it has destructors, and I don't think those can be put into C, simply on account that they're the one defining feature of C++, and so if you tried to put them into C, people would feel it's just a limited C++ variant
17:24:19 <b_jonas> and of course there's rust, which also has C++-like destructors
17:24:36 <zzo38> What I intend is neither C nor C++ nor Rust though
17:25:24 <b_jonas> not even C++ with gcc extensions?
17:25:31 <zzo38> (although, since you can call C functions from LLVM, and export functions in LLVM to call them in C, you would be able to use C functions with it too; also you could use in combination with Swift and Haskell, since LLVM supports calling conventions for Swift and Haskell too)
17:26:43 <b_jonas> ghc and rust also supports calling functions with C calling conventions, which is the typical way to connect haskell and rust with other languages
17:27:11 <b_jonas> the C calling conventions are basically the common conventions that a lot of different languages try to support, which I think is a good idea
17:27:21 <fizzie> I was looking at Zig documentation, speaking of vaguely C-style languages with an LLVM-based backend.
17:27:26 <b_jonas> there are sometimes difficulties with the details, but the main idea is good
17:27:51 <zzo38> Yes, in what I am dsecribing trying to make, you would be able to use any calling convention supported by LLVM
17:28:21 <b_jonas> Fortran gets some excemptions because of traditions, so you instead have to use the more limited fortran calling conventions from C
17:31:57 <b_jonas> that's probably not because fortran couldn't be made to call into C, but more like because few people want to write new fortran code, but some do want to call into existing fortran programs, and it's really not that hard to support calling into
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17:35:50 <zzo38> LLVM documentation does not seems to list Fortran calling conventions as far as I can tell
17:41:07 <zzo38> Also, rather than requiring its own standard library, I thought that the C standard library could just be used, although it would have its own standard macro library (which is also needed to make the program portable anyways), so the only other thing to link with is the C library, and only if you use it; if you can somehow avoid it then you don't need the C library either!
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18:25:17 <zzo38> Is there a free QuickBASIC compiler that can make real-mode DOS programs and that can use the Microsoft QuickBASIC commands such as SOUND and PLAY and POKE and so on?
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18:52:29 <fizzie> I think the only QuickBASIC clones I've run across have been targeting other platforms.
18:52:32 <zzo38> What I want to do in Linux is to read a file from the hard drive but ignoring all information about the data stored on the hard drive that is currently cached in RAM, except possibly the partition table. How can I do this on a system that is in use?
18:52:50 <zzo38> fizzie: Yes, that is what I have seen too, and also seems to be missing some commands
18:55:40 <fizzie> Will the O_DIRECT flag (on the block device) do what you want? I'm not sure what its exact definition is, but it's at least a little along those lines.
18:57:17 <zzo38> fizzie: Maybe, but then presumably an implementation of the file system will be needed in order to find a particular file.
18:59:05 <fizzie> Right, that seems inherently to be part of "ignoring all cached information", including information about where the file's data is stored.
19:15:32 <b_jonas> zzo38: that... might be difficult, since there can be a race condition with Linux modifying metadata on the same file system, and if you want to ignore everything in the RAM, you can't avoid that race condition, and may read wrong data
19:16:40 <b_jonas> zzo38: also, what file system? you may want to look at the sources of boot loaders, such as grub-l, grub-2, and loadlin, because they have file system access (at least read only) that may be simpler than what Linux does
19:16:51 <zzo38> It is ext4 file system
19:18:05 <zzo38> The files I want to read are those that are not in use, and I intend to do this only for testing purposes, so such a race condition may be irrelevant
19:18:28 <b_jonas> zzo38: then perhaps look at the source of grub-2, it's the only thing that can read that
19:19:03 <b_jonas> ext4 never got added to grub-l, and I think loadlin got discontinued before ext4 came around
19:19:34 <b_jonas> zzo38: you can also try to run another copy of Linux for this, in such a way that it has read-only access to that disk or partition
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19:19:56 <b_jonas> you could use a virtual machine for that, or possibly user-mode linux
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19:22:21 <b_jonas> zzo38: I think you can use the programs in the package e2fsprogs, which include fsck.ext4 and similar
19:22:38 <b_jonas> I think some of those may have a tool to read a file, or something close
19:22:47 <b_jonas> that said, that the file itself is not used doesn't seem enough guarantee to me
19:22:55 <b_jonas> it's more the other metadata that I'm worried about
19:23:21 <b_jonas> if the file itself is used (for writing), then of course you have a race condition, you would have even if you asked the kernel to read it, that's a different problem
19:24:25 <b_jonas> zzo38: the debugfs program from that package may help
19:24:30 <b_jonas> I don't know for sure if it does, read the docs
19:26:07 <b_jonas> that said, of course trying to read the file over the head of the kernel is less dangerous than trying to write it. your program could get confused and give you total nonsense, but at least it won't confuse the kernel or damage the file system
19:27:39 <zzo38> Yes, I don't want to write in this way, but only to read.
19:28:36 <zzo38> Yes, I tried that, and it works; thank you for that suggestion.
19:29:28 <zzo38> It uses read-only mode by default, so it works OK
19:33:07 <b_jonas> that seems nice, for a unix tool
19:44:11 <b_jonas> also yay, good to know that it works
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21:11:23 <zzo38> When copying a variable argument list in C to call a function that requires a va_list (such as vprintf), how can you add additional arguments at the beginning or end of the variable argument list?
21:12:07 <zzo38> (Is there a command to do that in C? If not in C, is there a way to do that in LLVM?)
21:22:26 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't think there's a standard way. you might be able to fake it with libffi, provided you can figure out the number and types of arguments you have to pass through
21:23:17 <b_jonas> I think generally it's just best to make all the interfaces such that you never need to rely on varargs for more than convenience, eg. you can just do multiple printfs instead of construct a vararg list for printf, or use execvp instead of execlp
21:24:18 <zzo38> Yes, that is what I do when I need it at all (I don't need it often), although I just wanted to know if it is possible to do, anyways.
21:28:58 <b_jonas> and that's the better use of vararg, the functions that use it to take a variable _number_ of arguments. there's also the more pointless use, where it's only about an optional argument or an argument of variable type, like in open, fcntl, ioctl, some more obscure linux kernel interface stuff, curl_easy_setopt
21:29:45 <b_jonas> these days I believe enough in static typing and avoiding stupid errors in compile time that I think it would be better if such interfaces took a union of pointers, or at least a void pointer (in the open case like ioctl)
21:30:14 <b_jonas> though of course admittedly some of those interfaces have the excuse that the vararg made more sense when they were invented
21:34:43 <fizzie> For open and suchlike, I wouldn't be surprised if the (pre-prototype) history was just that they were defined with three arguments, and just called with two sometimes; with the header declaration just using an empty parameter list.
21:36:41 <b_jonas> fizzie: AFAIK open, the history is that it used to have just two arguments, because if you wanted to create a file, you called creat instead. later they added an O_CREAT flag to open, so it was too late to require the third argument.
21:37:03 <fizzie> The glibc definition of open lives in the header file, and uses __builtin_va_arg_pack_len to provide an error if called with the wrong number of arguments.
21:37:05 <b_jonas> at least I hope there's some gcc attribute magic to give a warning if you pass the wrong type of argument to open
21:37:19 <b_jonas> fizzie: does it also warn if you call it with the wrong type?
21:37:42 <shachaf> Did you see my fancy varargs thing http://slbkbs.org/tmp/fmt.txt ?
21:37:57 <shachaf> I had to use a macro to add an extra sentinel argument at the end to make it work.
21:38:17 <b_jonas> shachaf: I haven't seen it
21:39:10 <shachaf> It may be possible without the sentinel argument, but I have to use a macro to pass type information as well.
21:42:07 <fizzie> I don't think there's any code in the header file to guard against a wrong type for the extra parameter, but maybe there's some extra magic elsewhere. Cutting off the __USE_FILE_OFFSET64 extra complications, it looks like http://ix.io/1Nmu/c
21:43:36 <fizzie> Which, AIUI, always complains if open is called with 4 or more arguments, and additionally complains about the missing mode if the flags are compile-time constant and contain O_CREAT or O_TMPFILE.
21:58:00 <zzo38> shachaf: I have seen that but not how fmt.h works.
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