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01:05:45 <zzo38> I thought of a similar kind of idea before, although with cards, that the user has to shuffle before inserting them into the computer, in order to implement randomness.
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01:32:33 <zzo38> (I don't know whether or not such a thing has ever been done with computer cards.)
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01:41:42 <esowiki> [[E]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=60827 * EeEee * (+3511) Created page with "'''E''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] created by [[User:EeEee]]. E is a blatant ripoff of [[Chicken]], however the only available token is the letter 'E'. ==Command..."
01:46:20 <esowiki> [[E]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60828&oldid=60827 * EeEee * (+788)
02:07:52 <salpynx> Eodermdrome spec says "an interpreter can always choose the first, or the last, or a random command, or use any other method to determine which command runs, if more than one can run", so 'random' non determinism is not guaranteed
02:09:03 <salpynx> the two existing interpreters both choose the first matching rule, so to get random choice, the source code can be shuffled to simulate an interpreter that picks a random matching rule
02:10:28 <zzo38> salpynx: Yes, unless the method is using first command in sorted order, in which case that won't work.
02:10:32 <salpynx> zzo38: this is sort of like what you describe with random cards, but using existing non-deterministic speced languages with deterministic interpreters
02:11:28 <salpynx> ... I think and hope that is not the case with the specific Eodermdrome interpreters, but yes, good point
02:20:05 <salpynx> I was going to nominate Eodermdrome for featured language, but there aren't enough examples. I'm trying to create some more complex ones, but it is tricky.
02:22:18 <salpynx> It can sort of be used like a 2d rewriting language like Thue with distinct graphs joined in a 'string'. Multi-dimensional rewriting would be more interesting but harder, and further limited by the restricted graph alphabet of 26 chars
02:22:31 <oerjan> the 26 node limit is a bit cramped, i think
02:22:56 <salpynx> A similar graph rewriting lang without that limitation would have more potential, but still be difficult to program in
02:24:04 <oerjan> as for non-random non-determinism, i considered that when writing the implementation of Malbolge Unshackled.
02:24:09 <salpynx> oerjan: very much so, most of my passably ok ideas re eodermdrome fell over with the 26 char limit :)
02:24:41 <oerjan> it selects randomly, at program start, between a number of policies, some of which are random and some of which are not.
02:25:37 <oerjan> (the non-determinism is in when to increase the rotation width)
02:27:42 <oerjan> (i wanted to make it as unpredictably unhelpful as possible - you can neither predict it, nor use it as a reliable source of randomness)
02:27:59 <salpynx> oerjan: I have a set of graph symbols which I think can be used like Thue limited to 2 characters on each side of the replacement, possibly extended to 3 in some cases, but I need to pull it together to test properly.
02:28:56 <salpynx> i have been finding bugs in the python interpreter that I need to fix
02:30:08 <salpynx> oerjan: "unpredictably unhelpful as possible - you can neither predict it, nor use it as a reliable source of randomness" that's just mean! ;)
02:30:22 <oerjan> well it _is_ a malbolge dialect :P
02:37:08 <oerjan> it was also a bit of an exercise in "how do you force programmers _not_ to depend on implementation-dependent behavior? by making the implementation choose between all options!"
02:38:03 <oerjan> (or a big enough subset of them)
02:39:19 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Alsfactory * New user account
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02:49:04 <salpynx> I'll check out that aspect of Malbolge Unshackled. I imagine writing something that tests the current rule set and terminates when it's not appropriate, with an external wrapper that reruns the code until the 'right' rules are in effect
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04:15:44 <zzo38> (With the MIXPC boot loader, if there are no additional data cards after the end of the program, you could shuffle all of the cards other than the first and last card and the program will still work as far as I can tell; only the first and last card must remain first and last. With Knuth's boot loader the second card also is fixed, but I think it also allows cards to otherwise be rearranged.)
06:15:40 <oren> What sort algoritm works best if you have a way to create a value at the midpoint between two values in O(1)
06:17:59 <zzo38> An algorithm for making what?
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09:16:03 <wob_jonas> zzo38: how does that work when you overwrite a memory word from multiple cards? are the values combined according to some commutative function like the NNIX loader does? because I think some MMIX assemblers will emit cards that overwrite an existing cell, to resolve some forward refs.
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10:22:08 <wob_jonas> ah yes. I should've expected another april fool video from Matthias Wandel. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KX6FpLBDOFs
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15:46:28 <zzo38> wob_jonas: Ah, maybe that is true (for MIX, not MMIX), although the MIXPC assembler does not emit multiple cards for the same address. Knuth's assembler might, in which case shuffling the cards will prevent it from working.
15:49:14 <zzo38> (In a change to the MIXPC assembler that I have not copied to this computer yet, there is a command to punch a zero in the first character position of all cards other than the first and last card. This isn't useful on modern computers, but if you are putting them in actual cards, it might help if the cards have inadvertently been mixed up.)
15:51:23 <wob_jonas> zzo38: maybe it could be done a bit cheaper than I said, because we could require that, say, only one card writes a nonzero value into any one byte.
15:52:05 <wob_jonas> the assembler will probably satisfy that, and you can implement that easily in the loader if you start by zeroing out the memory (at least its majority, the part you're allowed to load into)
15:52:26 <wob_jonas> mind you, you have to be careful to handle signs properly
15:53:25 <wob_jonas> this part is easier on a modern computer, where the OS will zero any memory you map anyway, and you get group operations on words for cheap
15:53:52 <zzo38> With two bootloader cards that may be possible; Knuth's loader does not use the entire second card, so there is still some space available. My own bootloader (which uses a single card) has only one unused word.
15:54:33 <wob_jonas> usually you want to use addition modulo the word size, so that you can write a forward reference offset with a constant offset, which MIXAL and MMIXAL don't allow, but you may want it in more powerful assemblers
15:55:43 <wob_jonas> zzo38: hmm. so in that case, either you have to require the user to not arbitrarily shuffle the cards, or make the assembler more careful in what it outputs, which would increase the number of the cards,
15:56:41 <wob_jonas> or bootstrap a second loader, which would help anyway because you could encode data on the rest of the cards more efficiently then
16:03:25 <wob_jonas> Not that the original encoding is too bad, mind you
16:03:27 <zzo38> Some time ago I wanted to try to figure out how to make it so that the program will still load and work even if all of the cards (including the first and last one) are shuffled, but have not managed to succeed at it.
16:04:36 <wob_jonas> you know of the relevant IOCCC entry, right?
16:04:48 <wob_jonas> you know *about* the relevant IOCCC entry, right?
16:05:03 <zzo38> I do not remember.
16:06:10 <wob_jonas> http://www.ioccc.org/years-spoiler.html#2001_westley
16:06:48 <wob_jonas> I'm not sure you can do it on MIX if all cards can be shuffled. I guess it's possible if you can rely on that the one first card is kept first,
16:07:11 <wob_jonas> and even if not, you could require the first few cards to be kept first, in which case it's almost certainly possible, and that's not really a difficult requirement to keep
16:07:45 -!- oerjan has set topic: Welcome to the international hub for discussion of the occult, esoteric and paranormal | https://esolangs.org | logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf.
16:07:53 <wob_jonas> Another possiblity would be if you allowed any shuffle, but required the user to feed the pack through the reader twice
16:08:30 <HackEso> wob_jonas: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
16:08:43 <zzo38> Ah, yes it could require putting the cards twice.
16:09:40 <wob_jonas> also, oerjan, isn't it too late for this?
16:10:38 <oerjan> probably. but int-e said to edit the topic today hth
16:11:04 <oerjan> i'm not planning to make it a larger effort
16:13:17 <zzo38> The option to punch the zero in the first character position of each card other than the first and last helps to correct the order if they have been mixed up, since you could put something through the holes so that you can find the first and last card, and then it is not difficult to see which card is first and last (since they are very distinguishable).
16:13:24 <oerjan> (i was originally just thinking i'd finally remove the IOCCC mention)
16:14:19 <wob_jonas> zzo38: if you just want to make the first and last cards distinguishable, use cards with different colored paper, and make both of them constant among programs.
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16:14:41 <zzo38> (I don't know if this way of using holes in computer cards have been done before or not)
16:15:36 <wob_jonas> zzo38: it has been done with some sort of cards, though I don't know if it's been done with hollerith cards in particular, or only cards specifically designed for this, with the holes on the edges
16:15:54 <wob_jonas> IIRC TAOCP vol 3 describes an example of the latter kind, with cards
16:16:20 <zzo38> wob_jonas: That is a possibility, although currently the last card isn't constant (although it is possible to make it so, by putting the real start address elsewhere and jump there)
16:16:40 <zzo38> Yes, I think I have read that in TAOCP vol 3, and/or maybe other books too
16:16:42 <wob_jonas> currently it isn't, but if you can change the format then it can be
16:16:55 <wob_jonas> yes, I think I've seen it in at least one other book too
16:18:51 <zzo38> I mean even without changing the first card at all, it can still work the last one constant, but the last card would still be different for binary and decimal computers.
16:21:12 <wob_jonas> there's also the option to make a loader that loads the program from paper tape, even if the loader itself may be on a few punch cards
16:22:14 <zzo38> (An example of a MIXPC assembled deck can be found in the Deadfish article. However, the program should still run even on implementations other than MIXPC.)
16:22:29 <wob_jonas> if you don't allow nul characters within a line, then such a loader could be almost as small as the loader from card
16:22:53 <wob_jonas> or del characters or whatever they are that you use on 5-row tape
16:24:10 <wob_jonas> apparently 5-row tape only has the nul character, not the del character. I've no idea how you'd edit that before splicing.
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18:18:32 <b_jonas> oerjan: should the topic mention "supernatural" too?
18:32:31 <arseniiv> oh the last is not in dictionaries yet
18:33:24 <arseniiv> a strange asymmetry between orthodox and paradoxical
18:39:18 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60830&oldid=60829 * KerbalEngineer * (+213) /* Introductions */
18:39:52 <HackEso> olist 1160: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
18:40:01 <b_jonas> dude, this has been up for several hours, how have you not rang it in?
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19:00:59 <arseniiv> ah is today the day when one can submit a page about a natural language to the wiki?
19:01:24 <esowiki> [[Chem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60836&oldid=60835 * KerbalEngineer * (+156)
19:01:46 <shachaf> My idea of an April 1st prank was to do a fake olist
19:01:49 <arseniiv> bad luck it is already april 2nd in here
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19:01:58 <shachaf> But what'shisname has preempted me.
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19:07:38 <b_jonas> shachaf: someone already did that
19:07:49 <b_jonas> shachaf: they posted the forum topic on the forum as if there was a new olist
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19:11:39 <esowiki> [[Chem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60843&oldid=60842 * KerbalEngineer * (-31)
19:11:54 <b_jonas> arseniiv: and apparently some traditions hold that april fools joke must be in the morning of --04-01 only
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19:25:50 <int-e> the transcript of today's xkcd should be an interesting effort...
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20:36:52 <arseniiv> wow, a Water level Sunken temple in BIY is a great one. I hardly cracked it
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21:01:00 <b_jonas> SIGBOVIK 2019 proceedings is now available at http://sigbovik.org/2019/proceedings.pdf
21:02:24 <arseniiv> b_jonas: thank you! Let’s take a look…
21:03:26 <b_jonas> arseniiv: it usually includes lots of fancy graphics
21:04:22 <esowiki> [[Chem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60858&oldid=60857 * KerbalEngineer * (+184)
21:04:34 <b_jonas> confusingly, it's not linked from http://sigbovik.org/2019/
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21:35:05 <b_jonas> also, the video that tom7 promised in his blog entry is now out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TFDG-y-EHs
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22:37:31 <arseniiv> oh, there’s a conlang article! :o
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22:39:30 <b_jonas> and there's an article not written by tom7 that cites a past article by tom7 too
22:40:09 <oerjan> <b_jonas> oerjan: should the topic mention "supernatural" too? <-- i cannot do that, it's already Apr 2 here hth
22:41:05 <oerjan> although in retrospect i did feel it should have been a bit longer
22:44:34 <HackEso> The password of the month is invalid.
22:45:00 <int-e> . o O ( tomfoolery )
22:49:25 <oerjan> int-e: that's for last month
22:50:56 <int-e> But I don't have any idea I like.
22:51:26 <int-e> (I have standards. They may be low, but they exist. :P)
22:54:27 <b_jonas> oerjan: I take it that I shouldn't just concatenate four random English words, as xkcd suggests and as I've done a few months ago, right?
22:56:17 <arseniiv> MersenneTwisterDoesn'tEscalate
22:57:08 <asie> b_jonas: yes, Poland was among participants in this variant of the tradition IIRC
22:57:17 <asie> that is, at least a decade or so back, you were expected to reveal your ruses by noon
22:57:30 <asie> nowadays it's a bit more muddied due to international influence
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00:33:01 <Cale> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TFDG-y-EHs
00:34:07 <kmc> oh is SIGBOVIK out?
00:34:53 <Cale> I'm not sure, but it'd make sense given this :)
00:35:26 <Cale> ah, yeah, it's today
00:35:43 <fizzie> http://sigbovik.org/2019/proceedings.pdf said someone.
00:36:02 <fizzie> (Still haven't looked yet.)
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12:50:30 <HackEso> bottleneck dolphin? ¯\(°_o)/¯
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12:55:24 <fizzie> Just tried building this thing for "arm86-v8a" accidentally. I guess that's some sort of hypothetical future Intel/ARM merger thing.
13:07:34 <wob_jonas> fizzie: yeah, ARM already has like three different instruction sets built in, so perhaps they'd throw in native x86 userland instruction set support too
13:51:59 <esowiki> [[EnilKode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60859&oldid=60796 * EnilKoder * (+0) /* FizzBuzz */
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14:16:37 <fizzie> "xkcd man" is probably like "Florida man".
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17:00:30 <int-e> . o O ( invisible cat won over pointy cat )
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18:35:17 <esowiki> [[KerbalEngineer]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=60862 * KerbalEngineer * (+135) Created page with "[[KerbalEngineer]] enjoys creating esoteric programming language on {{strikethrough|his}} his/her/its free time (if he/she/it has any)."
18:40:11 <esowiki> [[KerbalEngineer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60863&oldid=60862 * KerbalEngineer * (+153)
18:44:12 <esowiki> [[KerbalEngineer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60864&oldid=60863 * KerbalEngineer * (+158)
18:48:28 <esowiki> [[User:KerbalEngineer]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=60865 * KerbalEngineer * (+28) Redirected page to [[KerbalEngineer]]
18:50:13 <esowiki> [[Chem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60866&oldid=60861 * KerbalEngineer * (+64) /* Instruction Set */
19:02:38 <esowiki> [[Chem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60867&oldid=60866 * KerbalEngineer * (+176) /* Instruction Set */
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20:11:35 <arseniiv> they say pwgen is good for generating character names for sci/fantasy novels with e. g. -0AN8 arg
20:12:37 <arseniiv> I wonder if it’s already covered in some old SIGBOVIK submissions
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20:50:49 <fizzie> http://www.rinkworks.com/namegen/ is what I've always used for CRPGs.
20:52:50 <fizzie> `words --eng-fiction 15
20:52:51 <HackEso> patroni shope liposin xhibb bozzo 13oc burgan descied aiy baquiere aritu memoc kih trated tamarkf
21:06:30 <b_jonas> arseniiv: try http://www.d20srd.org/fantasy/name/
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21:10:32 <arseniiv> b_jonas: then it’s less of a mis-usage
21:56:59 <esowiki> [[Emmental]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60869&oldid=52495 * Mr. Vegetables * (-65) /* Implementations */
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23:10:16 <oerjan> <wob_jonas> oh wow! nice late april fools <-- . o O ( weren't you here when i put it on? )
23:13:27 <b_jonas> I actually called the topic out earlier
23:14:10 <b_jonas> this time I meant https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqWNxtk8GVo&t=0s
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23:50:40 <int-e> Meh. CV writing is such an unpleasant experience. What have I done with my time?!
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23:53:47 <pikhq> Tried to get a job or something
23:56:40 <kmc> there's no way to make my CV look good. every job I've held I either quit over something dumb, got fired for being unhappy, or just got so depressed that I stopped going in
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23:59:06 <kmc> the software industry is a really unhealthy environment for me
23:59:27 <int-e> Me I'm just too old after taking 7 years to complete my Diplom (~M.Sc.) and then taking a break for another 4 years. :P
00:00:08 <int-e> But the past 10 years look a bit better on the CV. So... I shouldn't complain.
00:00:17 <kmc> I've given up on work, my wife pays the bills and I fuck around aimlessly, this sounds great and it kind of is but I also feel like a useless failure. I need to find something constructive to do with my life that benefits others
00:00:18 <pikhq> I'm a bit confused people still even talk to me.
00:00:27 <kmc> I like you
00:00:40 <pikhq> By "people" I mean "potential employers" to be clear.
00:00:51 <pikhq> Sure, I had a job at Google! ... for like 9 months
00:01:22 <pikhq> ... and then a 2 year gap with no professional experience, where I finished a degree that's only tangentially related.
00:02:02 <pikhq> Gainfully employed now, but I'm wondering how long it'll take until they realize I'm clueless.
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00:03:39 <int-e> pikhq: my understanding is that everybody is faking it to some degree
00:04:40 <pikhq> You could basically describe my knowledge on this job before I came in as "concepts from related systems, and the ability to use Google effectively"
00:04:47 <pikhq> Somehow it's working or something.
00:05:26 <int-e> I strongly believe in abstraction ability and pattern matching.
00:06:21 <pikhq> Though I mean, to be fair, I was pretty honest interviewing with them "I don't know your stuff at all. I know X, Y, and Z that's similar, but I would have to be learning on the job"
00:06:29 <pikhq> So... I guess they just expect that
00:06:55 <int-e> It's so tempting to just say "I know programming".
00:12:16 <arseniiv> and I was thinking my life is a mess :) in relation to work and CV
00:12:40 <pikhq> I graduated from college! ... 10 years after starting
00:13:34 <arseniiv> someone walked off from a university because of a stupid reason and general frustration?
00:15:07 <pikhq> Yeah, and I came back later and got a completely different degree.
00:16:18 <arseniiv> I can’t make myself repeat something like that. Too many unrelated tangles, it seemed
00:16:50 <pikhq> This is why I did a completely different degree.
00:17:06 <pikhq> If I was going to come back, I was at least going to learn something new.
00:17:42 <arseniiv> I guess I just got unlucky in that and had picked a bad place :( but now the picture is tainted to try again, and I’m like too old to go through the several years of basics
00:17:58 <arseniiv> pikhq: glad it worked in your case!
00:18:44 <arseniiv> what a pessimistic topic, let’s pretend I haven’t spilled anything here ::
00:19:02 <pikhq> At least a lot of the more basic junk needed for that degree, I'd already done.e
00:19:24 <pikhq> I had a fair number of liberal arts type things to do, but degree coursework I was starting out on upper-level stuff.
00:25:59 <arseniiv> btw wish a ton of luck and persistence to any who applies to somewhere or writes their CV or has any life-changing choice. There just can’t be too much of that. Though a wish is still just a wish
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00:26:34 <pikhq> Yep. Contrary to some peoples' insistence, a lot of stuff in life is just luck.
00:30:19 <kmc> mm, life changing choices
00:33:31 <pikhq> They can be some good stuff.
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04:15:28 <oerjan> girl genius: well, that's a very weird last comment there. _is_ that somehow tarvek?
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04:38:36 <esowiki> [[Talk:Burn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60870&oldid=41299 * Truttle1 * (+1195) /* Random Observations and Guesses */ new section
04:39:09 <esowiki> [[Talk:Burn]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60871&oldid=60870 * Truttle1 * (+60) /* Random Observations and Guesses */
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06:22:48 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * YamTokTpaFa * New user account
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06:27:11 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60872&oldid=60830 * YamTokTpaFa * (+312) I am YamTokTpaFa.
06:31:19 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokTpaFa]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=60873 * YamTokTpaFa * (+216) Created page with "I am '''YamTokTpaFa'''. I am an alternative one of [[User:YamTokWae|YamTokWae]] but lost its password, sadly.... Therefore I had no choice but to make a new account, like this..."
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06:34:32 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=60874 * YamTokTpaFa * (+143) Created page with "'''Devilic10''' is an esoteric programming language designed by [[User: YamTokTpaFa]]. This language features binary-Coded 9-ary value, mainly."
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07:53:15 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60876&oldid=60875 * YamTokTpaFa * (+263)
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08:08:36 <esowiki> [[Y (programming language)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60877&oldid=60800 * YamTokTpaFa * (+24)
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08:16:47 <esowiki> [[Pxem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60878&oldid=60766 * YamTokTpaFa * (+67) /* Commands */
08:17:40 <esowiki> [[Pxem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60879&oldid=60878 * YamTokTpaFa * (+36) /* Commands */
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08:48:43 <wob_jonas> "<int-e> pikhq: my understanding is that everybody is faking it to some degree" => also the people who aren't are too expensive to hire
08:49:30 <wob_jonas> As for a CV, I decided on what approach I'll use when I seek a new job: https://esolangs.org/logs/2019-01.html#lZF
08:49:43 <Taneb> @tell oerjan That was my first thought, but I think it's more likely they're just being self-centered (not necessarily inconsistent with being Tarvek)
08:50:10 <wob_jonas> I'll just reference two tricky bug reports to shwo that I can find bugs in large well-written programs, and look for programming jobs where that matters.
08:53:01 <wob_jonas> "<arseniiv> btw wish a ton of luck and persistence" => thanks
09:18:03 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60880&oldid=60876 * YamTokTpaFa * (+6811)
09:21:42 <esowiki> [[Talk:Pxem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60881&oldid=57674 * YamTokTpaFa * (+262) /* Announcement:I'm fixing the article. */ new section
09:32:59 <esowiki> [[Pxem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60882&oldid=60879 * YamTokTpaFa * (+478) Announcement
09:39:29 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60883&oldid=60880 * YamTokTpaFa * (+157) /* Specifications */
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09:57:42 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60884&oldid=60883 * YamTokTpaFa * (+587) /* Specifications */
10:10:31 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60885&oldid=60884 * YamTokTpaFa * (+362) /* Specifications */
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13:48:10 <esowiki> [[EnilKode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60886&oldid=60860 * Something Fawful * (-16) used {{lowercase}} to correct the title so {{wrongtitle}} isn't needed.
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15:00:11 <esowiki> [[EnilKode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60887&oldid=60886 * ZM * (-13) a second header for the title isn't really necessary
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15:28:17 <esowiki> [[No Literals, Gotos Only, Final Destination!]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=60888 * Something Fawful * (+16080) Created the original version of my first esolang. WIll be adding implementation link on github once on other computer.
15:29:57 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60889&oldid=60832 * Something Fawful * (+50) /* N */ Added No Literals, Gotos Only Final Destination!
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17:43:16 <esowiki> [[BoredKat]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=60893 * KerbalEngineer * (+52) Created page with "'''BoredKat''' (pronounced ''d l ti'')"
17:44:00 <esowiki> [[BoredKat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60894&oldid=60893 * KerbalEngineer * (+75)
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17:45:47 <esowiki> [[Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60895&oldid=59292 * KerbalEngineer * (+93)
17:47:15 <esowiki> [[KerbalEngineer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60896&oldid=60892 * KerbalEngineer * (-15)
17:59:48 <esowiki> [[BoredKat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60897&oldid=60894 * KerbalEngineer * (+100)
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18:22:16 <oren> `` echo '| I' | grep '| I'
18:24:36 <oren> `` echo -e '|\tI' | grep '| I'
18:24:40 <oren> `` echo -e '|\tI' | grep '|\tI'
18:25:00 <oren> `` echo -e '|\tI' | grep '|'$'\t''I'
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20:57:54 <kmc> @run iterate show ""
20:57:56 <lambdabot> ["","\"\"","\"\\\"\\\"\"","\"\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\"\"","\"\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\\...
20:58:13 <kmc> > iterate (show . show) ""
20:58:15 <lambdabot> ["","\"\\\"\\\"\"","\"\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\"\\...
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21:34:25 <b_jonas> have you guys played factorio?
21:34:32 <b_jonas> seems like an interesting game
21:35:34 <kmc> it's reasonably interesting
21:35:40 <kmc> I never got super into it like my friend did
21:35:56 <kmc> he's played... god, I don't know how many thousands of hours
21:42:11 <int-e> So I've found the Center in Baba is You. (That's where I found the sillines as well.)
21:45:02 <b_jonas> is the center an "IS" block?
21:46:10 <int-e> it's a place, not a block
21:46:25 <b_jonas> yeah, but what is at that place?
21:47:35 <b_jonas> nah, that'd probably be a spoiler
21:47:49 <HackEso> game of thrones? ¯\(°_o)/¯
21:50:40 <HackEso> Chess is a complex boardgame, where players exchange unclear royal steaks until they decide which of them has lost. The game is recorded through the Gringmuth Moving Pineapple Notation.
21:51:17 <HackEso> Go is a common irregular verbal game programming language invented by the Germanic Taneb tribes catching monsters in the strategic territories of East Asia.
21:52:13 <HackEso> J started out as a synonym for I, but then branched out into an array of other uses.
21:52:16 <HackEso> super mario bros? ¯\(°_o)/¯
21:52:51 <b_jonas> well, I have created https://esolangs.org/wiki/Nondeterministic_Super_Mario_Bros. a while ago
21:52:58 <LKoen> is your login inspired by a japanese anime inspired by a french novel?
21:53:29 <b_jonas> the login of my hon. and learned friend fungot?
21:53:29 <fungot> b_jonas: what the hon. and learned friend the minister for the work he is now undertaking to restore the right to obtain to fund the new it for students.
21:54:18 <arseniiv> (I mean yeah whose login, not yeah inspired; my login is my name plus a letter)
21:55:24 <LKoen> I meant your login
21:55:33 <LKoen> because "iiv" is basically 3 in roman numerals
21:56:06 <LKoen> and "Arsene Lupin" is a series of french novels, which inspired a japanese anime called "Rupin III" about the grandson of Arsene Lupin
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21:58:51 <HackEso> kmc did not run the International Devious Code Contest of 2013.
21:59:02 <kmc> 2013... so long ago
21:59:07 <kmc> I was a completely different person
21:59:42 <kmc> that was before everything fell apart
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22:05:45 <kmc> so, how 'bout them Turing machines, eh? never know when they're gonna stop
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22:08:15 <b_jonas> I was wondering about the roman numeral, though more as in the "iv" being a roman numeral, and the first "i" separate from it
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22:59:26 <lambdabot> Taneb said 14h 9m 43s ago: That was my first thought, but I think it's more likely they're just being self-centered (not necessarily inconsistent with being Tarvek)
23:08:07 <HackEso> game of thrones? ¯\(°_o)/¯
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23:35:32 <esowiki> [[Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60898&oldid=60895 * Oerjan * (-93) Undo revision 60895 by [[Special:Contributions/KerbalEngineer|KerbalEngineer]] ([[User talk:KerbalEngineer|talk]]) (See Meta section.)
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17:36:23 <izabera> what if you take a language that's turing complete
17:36:33 <izabera> and make it a syntax error to write a program that produces a quine?
17:37:26 <LKoen> it would still be turing complete, I guess
17:38:02 <rain1> that's halting equivalent though
17:38:21 <rain1> so it would be impossible to implement the langugae
17:38:34 <izabera> i think it would be possible to write an interpreter for it
17:39:01 <rain1> i guess you could run the program and if it's equal to the source code discard and error, otherwise just print thath result out
17:39:38 <izabera> economicsbat: compiling it
17:39:49 <LKoen> rain1: how can it be halting-equivalent? a quine is a program that outputs its sourcecode then halts, right? once it's halted you can check whether it did a good job of printing its own code or not
17:40:00 <economicsbat> oh sorry, I mean "what does halting equivalent mean?"
17:40:10 <izabera> yeah but compilers need to check the code in advance
17:40:33 <rain1> LKoen: that's true but the trouble would be programs that have printed a prefix of their source code and then don't halt
17:41:09 <izabera> so what are the requirements for a language to be able to write a quine in it?
17:41:44 <LKoen> economicsbat: "this problem is equivalent to the problem of deciding whether a given pair (Turing Machine, Input) is such that that turing machine would halt on that input"
17:41:53 <LKoen> for some value of equivalent
17:42:15 <rain1> turing complete implies you can write a quine (kleenes theorem), but there are lots of sub turing languages that can quine
17:42:35 <economicsbat> oh, OK! yeah, and a Turing machine is a computer
17:43:03 <izabera> but still, i think my example is valid?
17:43:46 <oerjan> izabera: see our very well hidden wiki discussion on https://esolangs.org/wiki/User_talk:Smjg
17:45:41 <oerjan> rain1: there are additional technical conditions because TC doesn't really say anything about freedom to output anything
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17:52:30 <esowiki> [[Quine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60899&oldid=60022 * Oerjan * (+124) /* How to write quines */ Link old "quineless" discussion which keeps coming up
17:57:26 <esowiki> [[Chromos]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=60900 * Areallycoolusername * (+1352) Created page with "[[Chromos]] is an [[esoteric programming language]] made by [[User: Areallycoolusername|Areallycoolusername]]. It's based of of [[RNA]], except it uses chromosomes instead of..."
17:57:43 <esowiki> [[Chromos]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60901&oldid=60900 * Areallycoolusername * (-1)
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19:02:22 <b_jonas> Is there a video game that has multiple endings, one of them is called "true ending" (or "canon ending"), and one of them is called "best ending", and the two aren't the same?
19:04:30 <b_jonas> Suppose there's a middle-aged lady all whose husbands have passed away in suspicious circumstances, and she's inherited a lot of money from each of them. She asks your hand in marriage now. At least how many husbands does he have had to have to make you reject the proposal outright on that count?
19:05:06 <b_jonas> What if she admits to you that she has killed all her previous husbands for their money, but she also says that she doesn't want to kill you, she has enough money now.
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19:27:26 <fizzie> b_jonas: I don't think the Nier/Drakengard collection of games quite matches your requirements (for one, I don't think anyone calls any of the endings "best"), but I think it might have had a case where a "canonical ending" (at least in the sense that some of the sequel material, not necessary a game, implies that's what happened) isn't the same as the "final ending" (as in, the hardest to get).
19:27:32 <fizzie> b_jonas: It's all explained in this handly simple timeline chart https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/drakengard/images/8/8b/DOD-NIER-timeline-20180404.png/revision/latest where the A/B/C/D/... markers are multiple endings.
19:31:27 <b_jonas> fizzie: ok. that looks complicated, and I know very little of those games.
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21:26:35 <zzo38_> I saw name generation mentioned in the logs; I used a program I wrote myself: http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/namegen.js I have not tried pwgen and I don't know how well it work for that purpose
21:27:39 <rain1> o\how do i run this?
21:27:41 <rain1> if(e.code=="EPIPE") process.exit(0); else throw e;
21:27:45 <rain1> TypeError: Cannot read property '0' of undefined
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21:29:52 <zzo38_> I don't know why it results that error message; that code should only run if an error occurs.
21:30:14 <rain1> do i need to pass command line parameters
21:31:31 <zzo38_> Yes. Pass either a string consisting of the format described at the bottom, or use - and one of the presets defined above that (e.g. -altern or -fantasy). The second argument is optional and is how many names you want.
21:34:39 <fizzie> Looks like the error was from the [0] in `process.argv[2][0]` when no arguments were provided.
21:35:36 <zzo38_> Yes, that is probably where the error came from.
21:38:01 <zzo38_> It is based on the RinkWorks but I wanted a local version of the program and they did not have one, so I tried to convert it into a local implementation even though I did not have their source code.
21:40:15 <zzo38_> Someone told me that two clocks per pixel in Digi-RGB results too many pins, and that it should be four or eight clock cycles per pixel. What do you think?
21:55:48 <arseniiv> a while ago I had written several text generators equally suited for sentences or singular words, but now I’m disappointed in either of them and plan to write another one, one day… Basically the idea is to enhance context-free grammars with probabilities and parameters (to make descriprions more compact in several cases);
21:55:48 <arseniiv> probabilities are added in a known way: what is an alternation in CFG, is a weighted choice in PCFG; also I was quite enthralled with taking quantifiers from CFG to “distribution quantifiers” in PCFG: to generate a<dist>, you generate a dist-distributed integer n and then generate (a a … a (n times)), where each a is independent (it would be boring if they were all the same);
21:55:48 <arseniiv> and I picked a handful of “simple enough” distributions that in some sense abbreviated simple PCFG patterns, including recursive (e. g. if X → <p> X a | <1−p> ε, then X realises as a concatenation of n a’s where n is geometrically distributed with parameter p (or something like p, it’s non-essential here));
21:55:48 <arseniiv> and used a quantifier-like notations for them, so X from the example would be expressible as a*<p>;
21:55:48 <arseniiv> I can also tell about what I mean by parameters but only if someone asks, as it’s already quite a wall of text; shortly speaking, nonterminal symbols allow to take arguments and be now defined by cases (these should be provably disjoint, or it wreaks the context-freeness and like) with simple pattern matching (a variable or a const symbol);
21:55:48 <arseniiv> so far, it is possible to calculate mean or even stddev and I think any higher moments of text generated by any expression, if only the grammar is correct enough, which is checkable too;
21:55:48 <arseniiv> further, one also can introduce (probabilistic) functions which take _text_ arguments instead of abstract symbols etc., but it could destroy our neat statistic analysis from above. I’m finished :o
22:06:26 <arseniiv> there, “<p1> e1 | … | <pn> en” stands for “pick e to be any one of e1 with weight w1, …, en with weight en and generate e”. To the time, I haven’t thought up something less clumsy, also weights are optional and default to 1 (if someone is interested to use this notation in its full glory; also I’d recommend to allow an optional “|” at the start to allow neat code, but note it demands forbidding to name the empty string by an empty
22:06:26 <arseniiv> expression, or the notation becomes ambiguous)
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23:13:28 <HackEso> hawott psyduck eleo typh noctina reuniclusle worm dodra licent smear yung escash hippowdon slugia fraxurkrow dusknoir tor wiggersian horseak herdier
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23:18:44 <fizzie> I've read some papers on unsupervised PCFG induction, think I was planning to use them for something, can't remember what.
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23:28:26 <arseniiv> fizzie: I have read only one paper about PCFG to understand how to make sure there is zero probability of non-terminating generation and something else (it’s also in link with if a naive formula for mean length is true), but that article saw PCFG primarily as a parsing tool, though it fortunately shares correctness criteria with PCFG a text generator. The last one’s probably viewed as not serious enough
23:33:26 <fizzie> Hmm, well. Managed to locate two papers on grammar induction in my home directory (Natural language grammar induction with a generative constituent-context model, Klein & Manning 2004; Automatic acquisition and efficient representation of syntactic structures, Solan et al. no-date-on-PDF) but actually neither of them generates a PCFG though they do cite papers that do.
23:35:05 <fizzie> I think parsing is what they usually get used for.
23:36:36 <fizzie> `words --pokemon --esolangs 20
23:36:37 <HackEso> keldorainfernants dhelio blimpole squil vile rant cute mor ntcm reshiel um-32 trig scor metal houndex.php kellspro stung bit back snub
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23:40:19 <oerjan> <b_jonas> What if she admits to you that she has killed all her previous [...] <-- this sounds like a great scheme for getting bayesian rationalists to gain darwin awards
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00:00:44 <zzo38_> At the beginning of your precombat main phase, you gain life equal to the number of different colors of mana in your mana pool.
00:05:03 <oerjan> no, i prefer not to get into precombat phases twh
00:08:21 <shachaf> oerjan: How many colors do you have in your mana pool, anyway?
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00:15:44 <zzo38_> Have you made a implementation of Z-machine in any esolangs?
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01:08:16 <zzo38_> (Even, which esolangs are suitable for implementing Z-machine?)
01:10:16 <zzo38_> (INTERCAL with file I/O and byte arrays might do)
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02:54:46 <oerjan> in freefall, things might get awkward if the ship really means winston
02:57:16 <zzo38_> If I cannot think of what rooms to put in, is there some algorithm I can use dice and tables or whatever to make up something at random and then I can alter the results as needed until it is suitable?
02:58:01 <zzo38_> (It has been suggested maybe it is based on the genre, but, I am not sure what if any genre is applicable for this kind of story, of Game of XYZABCDE -- Part II.)
03:14:31 <shachaf> int-e: Remind me, did you play The Witness?
03:15:00 <shachaf> It's free on epicgames.com for a couple of weeks.
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04:55:19 <zzo38_> Do you like to make up some Magic: the Gathering card?
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05:37:11 <esowiki> [[Volatile]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=60902 * A * (+228) First edit
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05:43:38 <esowiki> [[Volatile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60903&oldid=60902 * A * (+758)
05:50:36 <esowiki> [[Volatile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60904&oldid=60903 * A * (+1027) /* Examples */
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05:55:11 <esowiki> [[Volatile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60905&oldid=60904 * A * (+248) /* Number tricks */
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06:05:58 <esowiki> [[Volatile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60906&oldid=60905 * A * (+56) /* Computational Class */
06:14:41 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60907&oldid=60821 * A * (+115) /* General Ideas */
06:18:27 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60908&oldid=60907 * A * (+5) /* General Ideas */
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09:27:45 <rain1> anyone use 9cc? know how to fix this problem ? https://github.com/rui314/9cc/issues/18
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09:29:13 <wob_jonas> zzo38: is that like between domain cards and sunburst cards?
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11:14:42 <izabera> https://twitter.com/pid_eins/status/1113738764797534208
11:17:32 <izabera> tldr: frign from suckless keeps spamming lennart with invites to conferences, writing from a host that's a nazi symbol
11:20:04 <izabera> and this was meant for a different channel
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11:41:59 <int-e> shachaf: I played it quite a bit but never got any of the pillars completed.
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12:49:43 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60909&oldid=60885 * YamTokTpaFa * (+325) /* Specifications */
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13:35:23 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60910&oldid=60889 * Nobody * (+15) Added Bitdeque, will create a page for it
13:36:48 <fizzie> Read some pages about hifi enthusiast pseudoscience, and now everywhere ads are trying to sell me a €450 three-plug mains extension cord.
13:47:19 <wob_jonas> or like https://www.xkcd.com/670/ ?
13:55:14 <int-e> wob_jonas: it needs to be properly shielded as well; can't have any noise on that sweet 50Hz hum. ;-)
13:56:55 <int-e> (Maybe add a low-pass filter while you're at it. The only problem is, it might make an actual difference.)
14:03:16 <esowiki> [[Bitdeque]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=60911 * Nobody * (+1531) Created
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18:47:33 <HackEso> 610) <shachaf> You should get kmc in this channel. kmc has good quotes. <shachaf> `quote kmc <HackEgo> 686) <kmc> COCKS [...] <kmc> truly cocks <shachaf> Well, in theory. \ tab//Tab is both a computer keyboard key and a soda pop brand.
18:47:37 <HackEso> shannon//Shannon forbade non mathematically minded people from reading his research papers. Taneb invented Shannon, his research papers, and Shannon's prohibition. \ 83) <fax> okay I see it now, quines do exist
18:48:07 <HackEso> sgtm//Sergeant Mustard \ 566) (Of Minecraft:) <elliott> So basically I didn't understand what it was at all, I thought maybe you were meant to be like a worm and just sort of wriggle about underground.
18:49:12 <HackEso> moderate oven and simmer \ until firm. Serve hot in bodied fresh, mustard, orange and cheese. \ \ Combine the cheese and salt together the dough in a large skillet; add the ingredients \ and stir in the chocolate and pepper. \ \ Recipe By : \ \ MMMMM \ \ MMMMM----- Recipe via Meal-Master (tm) v8.05 \ \ Title: BARBARA PULPOICE \ Categories: Carnin, Chicken \ Yield: 4 Servings \ \ Thai & Popcorn \ 6 oz Candied PER SERRETS \ 2 qt VEGETA
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18:49:17 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: roborosewater: not found
18:49:20 <HackEso> RoboRosewater is generating random Magic: the Gathering cards, see https://mobile.twitter.com/roborosewater
18:51:57 <b_jonas> https://twitter.com/RoboRosewater/status/1074420139733516288 roborosewater doesn't seem to understand how that would lead to a one-hit kill
18:54:28 <HackEso> Jar Jar Binks \ Salacious Crumb \ Darth Vader \ Taun We
19:21:03 <HackEso> The password of the month is invalid.
19:21:15 <int-e> . o O ( The password of the month is experiencing technical difficulties. )
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20:12:36 <HackEso> language boson? ¯\(°_o)/¯
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01:48:38 <doesthis> hi peeps, so where can I learn about category theory?
01:50:03 <doesthis> because today I met someone who said that they like types because of the commuting diagram of fold, and I want to be able to understand what they have in mind
02:56:59 <Cale> doesthis: Well, what kind of background do you have? Usually what I recommend generically is Steve Awodey's book "Category Theory", but while it has almost no prerequisites mathematically, it's definitely written in a style that might be uncomfortable if you're not used to reading mathematics.
02:58:01 <Cale> I'm not sure which commuting diagram that person would have been referring to, but there are some category theoretical approaches to discussing what folds are, via so-called "F-algebras"
02:59:14 <doesthis> F algebras look like the kind he had in mind
02:59:35 <Cale> (More precisely, that's a formulation of what "catamorphisms" are -- despite the name, that's a term from computer science and not category theory originally)
03:00:26 <Cale> There are a bunch of things programmers might refer to as folds which are not quite catamorphisms, and a bunch of things which are catamorphisms that most programmers might shy away from calling a fold at first.
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03:01:01 <shachaf> "catamorphism" is a pointless term, just say "fold" hth
03:01:18 <Cale> haha, fair enough
03:01:18 <doesthis> I have great difficulty understanding abstractions unless I can keep in mind a particular instantiation of it
03:01:37 <Cale> What languages are you familiar with? Can I write some Haskell examples?
03:01:45 <shachaf> That one theorem that every initial F-algebra is an isomorphism is pretty good.
03:01:59 <Cale> Okay, so suppose we have a type like this:
03:02:29 <Cale> data Nature a = Rock | Stream a (Nature a) | Bush (Nature a) (Nature a)
03:03:00 <Cale> (It's intentionally a bit weird just to give some different cases :)
03:03:42 <Cale> So, one of the most common patterns that comes up in programming with algebraic data types is to just replace each constructor throughout with another specified value
03:04:05 <Cale> So for example, we might usefully provide:
03:04:18 <Cale> foldNature rock stream bush = f
03:04:43 <Cale> f (Stream x n) = stream x (f n)
03:05:01 <Cale> f (Bush n n') = bush (f n) (f n')
03:05:42 <Cale> i.e. the resulting function f will go through a Nature value and replace each occurrence of Rock with rock, Stream with stream, and Bush with bush
03:06:05 <Cale> If we do this thing for lists, that's a (right) fold
03:06:49 <Cale> It replaces each cons in the list with some specified function, and the empty list at the end (if any) with a specified value
03:08:33 <Cale> These functions, which are uniquely determined by the type in some sense that can be made more precise, are called catamorphisms (or perhaps just folds)
03:09:00 <Cale> But note that this doesn't get us the left fold on the list type, that one is something less natural.
03:09:45 <Cale> and in general, it doesn't immediately get us a way to sequentialise the elements of a type, like some generalised notions people have called "fold" would
03:09:58 <Cale> It's just about substituting structure
03:11:50 <Cale> One idea for getting at this in a more general way is to make the recursion in the data type more explicit
03:12:08 <Cale> We could start with some type which was abstracted over the places where we were going to be recursive:
03:12:30 <Cale> data Nature a n = Rock | Stream a n | Bush n n
03:12:46 <Cale> and then write a type-level fixed point:
03:13:10 <Cale> newtype Fix f = In (f (Fix f))
03:13:28 <Cale> out :: Fix f -> f (Fix f)
03:13:33 <Cale> out (In x) = x
03:13:59 <Cale> So that now Fix (Nature a) becomes equivalent to our original type
03:14:12 <Cale> (with a lot of noisy In's)
03:15:40 <Cale> Now, think about a function of type Nature a b -> b
03:16:10 <Cale> Such a function is kind of like the specification of our three arguments in the above thing, rock, stream, and bush
03:16:41 <Cale> In particular, if we have some h :: Nature a b -> b
03:17:45 <Cale> Well, let's say it the other way, if we wanted to specify such a function h, we could do it as follows:
03:18:29 <Cale> h (Stream x n) = stream x n -- no recursion now
03:18:39 <Cale> h (Bush n n') = bush n n'
03:19:00 <Cale> Choosing such a rock, stream, and bush will uniquely determine which function h is.
03:19:12 <Cale> since these generically handle all the cases
03:19:45 <doesthis> that makes sense but I'm going to have to spend time on understanding Fix
03:19:55 <Cale> So a single function of type (Nature a b -> b), using this non-recursive version of Nature is a way of capturing all the arguments we would have given to the fold
03:21:03 <Cale> and then there's a way to generically write a fold which will work on types that are expressed in this way (so long as it turns out that the type we're taking the fixed point of is a Functor)
03:21:24 <Cale> Right, let's look at Fix a bit more carefully
03:21:57 <Cale> So, before, we might've written some value like Bush (Stream 1 (Stream 2 Rock)) (Stream 3 Rock)
03:22:55 <Cale> With the Fix version, each "In" gets us another level deeper, basically, so with that approach, the corresponding value would look like:
03:23:33 <Cale> In (Bush (In (Stream 1 (In (Stream 2 (In Rock))))) (In (Stream 3 (In Rock))))
03:24:10 <Cale> :: Fix (Nature Integer)
03:24:30 <Cale> (sorry for not naming them differently, I didn't feel like writing primes everywhere today)
03:25:26 <Cale> In :: Nature a (Fix (Nature a)) -> Fix (Nature a)
03:25:35 <Cale> or more generally
03:25:41 <Cale> In :: f (Fix f) -> Fix f
03:26:16 <Cale> So it's possible to write:
03:26:28 <Cale> cata :: Functor f => (f a -> a) -> Fix f -> a
03:27:19 <Cale> cata h (In x) = h (fmap (cata h) x)
03:27:29 <Cale> or slightly more fancily
03:27:43 <Cale> cata h = h . fmap (cata h) . out
03:28:18 <Cale> So this Functor bit is the category theory creeping its way in a little
03:29:27 <Cale> From a programmer's perspective, the (Functor f) just expresses the constraint that we need a way to take any function, say of type a -> b, and some value of type f a, and obtain a value of type f b
03:29:38 <Cale> i.e. we can turn functions of type a -> b into functions of type f a -> f b
03:30:29 <Cale> You pick any such type f, and then its fixed point has some notion of fold, given by that 'cata' thing
03:32:24 <Cale> There's a bit more going on there that you can tease out, but that's really the gist of it
03:33:16 <Cale> Usually when I actually use this stuff, I much prefer the definitions like foldNature to the fully generic thing
03:33:36 <Cale> But having such a function is very often useful
03:33:57 <Cale> (especially when the type is actually recursive, but sometimes even when it's not!)
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03:39:15 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60912&oldid=60909 * YamTokTpaFa * (+301) /* Specifications */
03:39:30 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60913&oldid=60912 * YamTokTpaFa * (+1) /* = Operating content of file */
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11:04:47 <HackEso> A lens is just a store comonad coalgebra.
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17:43:48 <int-e> shachaf: erghea bs fpravp cbaq was quite good. (I had the right idea for the raqtnzr very soon, but arranging the required bireynl took quite some effort)
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18:39:30 <zzo38> Do you like Digi-RGB and IMIDI?
18:42:39 <rain1> i dont work with anything like that
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18:47:55 <zzo38> A format could also be made up for transmitting IMIDI messages with infrared signals; in this way the signal is one way (wired IMIDI is two ways), but the infrared can also include a device number, maybe three bits device number.
18:53:39 <kmc> what is IMIDI and Digi-RGB
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19:20:32 <zzo38> It is something I invented; Digi-RGB is a video signal (one way only), having several balanced pairs, which is clock, vsync, red, green, blue; at first I had four of each red/green/blue so that there are two clock cycles per pixel, but someone suggested making it more serialized to have less pins and more clock cycles per pixel.
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19:21:56 <zzo38> IMIDI is a kind of two way MIDI, and is not only for music it can be used for many kind of stuff including television. Most commands are like MIDI, although the format of SysEx payloads is different (the framing is the same though), and a few other commands for device selection (a device address is a sequence of 7-bit numbers)
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20:29:02 <shachaf> int-e: It wa pretty clear that you had to use the cevfba trick, but the fact that you had to use it twice (with grkg vf qrsrng) was sneaky.
20:30:28 <zzo38> How many clock cycles per pixel do you think should be in Digi-RGB? The more clock cycles per pixel, the slower frame rate it can handle and the more complicated the protocol becomes, but it also makes the cable simpler because it needs less pins.
20:31:43 <int-e> shachaf: I think I only used it once in the end.
20:32:13 * int-e is looking at the tnyyrel now.
20:33:11 <shachaf> Oh, maybe it was a different solution.
20:33:51 <int-e> shachaf: grkg vf qrsrng was definitely involved
20:34:45 <shachaf> Hmm, maybe I only used it once too.
20:36:28 <shachaf> No, I don't think so. I'm not sure what your solution is.
20:38:08 <int-e> shachaf: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/baba-critical{,2}.png is the critical moment (spoiler alert, obviously)
20:39:24 <shachaf> Those both look like screenshots of the beginning of the level.
20:39:40 <int-e> huh. that's strange. let me try that again
20:41:06 <shachaf> I'd call that a use of the cevfba trick.
20:41:16 <int-e> yeah but it's the only one
20:41:47 <int-e> (as usualy you may be counting things differently)
20:41:53 <shachaf> You didn't do onon vf sybng?
20:42:40 <int-e> I had convinced myself that was impossible.
20:42:49 <shachaf> Wait, no. How do you get past the skull?
20:44:01 <int-e> V chfu xrxr ba gbc bs gur fxhyy, juvpu perngrf obgu xrxr naq onon va gung cynpr; V pna zbir bar hcjneqf gb chfu gur synt qbja naq gur bgure bar fgenvtug gb gur evtug.
20:47:50 <shachaf> That's quite different from using the float.
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20:52:49 <int-e> Yeah. As I said, I couldn't make that work. Still can't, for that matter.
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21:03:36 <int-e> shachaf: The thing is, destroying the 'is' on the right is the only way I see to get enough material for setting up any kind of overlay in the first place.
21:03:59 <int-e> (I meant to rot13 that)
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21:07:59 <shachaf> I think the trick there is gb chfu nyy gur grkg gb gur evtug, arkg gb gur jnyy.
21:08:22 <shachaf> I should finish this game, I still have some levels left.
21:14:16 <int-e> I have 220/11/3 now. (The /3 has a spoiler in the changelog)
21:14:32 <int-e> I'm missing something in zrgn, apparently.
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21:31:07 <int-e> shachaf: ah. got it. tricky solution :)
21:31:55 <int-e> ("it" being your kind of solution for erghea bs fpravp cbaq)
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21:58:40 <arseniiv> wow, just have seen a textbook on logic where the author names variables V|V, V||V, V|||V and so on (though no VV—why?..). I guess they wasn’t pleased with more or less standard v, v′, v′′, v′′′… but I think the result is unjustly rough on the reader
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21:59:48 <arseniiv> I guess they wanted no variable name contained in any other name, though I don’t see how it will make sufficiently many things sufficiently easier
22:00:54 <b_jonas> that's not enough though if you want full Incident rules
22:01:36 <arseniiv> I could stand string languages for logic textbooks, but this is too much. One should teach that terms and formulas are trees, and that we aren’t interested in the set of allowed variable names any more than it is recursive enumerable
22:02:41 <arseniiv> b_jonas: that's not enough though if you want full Incident rules => maybe the reasons are ever less sesible, I didn’t read that book far. This was pretty enough
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22:40:11 <zzo38> I followed a link on a webpage and got this: {"message":"Content not available.","code":"404","raw":"{\"message\":\"Content doesn't exist\",\"code\":404}"} What is the purpose of the raw copy included?
22:44:11 <zzo38> (Except the raw isn't quoting 404, and the message is different too, and those thing is seem strange to me)
22:45:40 <b_jonas> > fix (\m -> "{\"message\":\"Content not available.\",\"code\":\"404\",\"raw\":" ++ show m ++ "}")
22:45:42 <lambdabot> "{\"message\":\"Content not available.\",\"code\":\"404\",\"raw\":\"{\\\"mes...
22:45:52 <b_jonas> > var $ fix (\m -> "{\"message\":\"Content not available.\",\"code\":\"404\",\"raw\":" ++ show m ++ "}")
22:45:54 <lambdabot> {"message":"Content not available.","code":"404","raw":"{\"message\":\"Conte...
22:49:07 <b_jonas> `perl -e sub w{q/{"message":"Content not available.","code":"404","raw":"/.$_[0]=~s/([\"\\])/\\$1/gr.q/"}/}; $s="";$s=w($s) for 0..8; print$s,"\n";
22:49:07 <HackEso> {"message":"Content not available.","code":"404","raw":"{\"message\":\"Content not available.\",\"code\":\"404\",\"raw\":\"{\\\"message\\\":\\\"Content not available.\\\",\\\"code\\\":\\\"404\\\",\\\"raw\\\":\\\"{\\\\\\\"message\\\\\\\":\\\\\\\"Content not available.\\\\\\\",\\\\\\\"code\\\\\\\":\\\\\\\"404\\\\\\\",\\\\\\\"raw\\\\\\\":\\\\\\\"{\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"message\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\":\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"Content not available.\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\",\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
22:50:11 <b_jonas> `perl -e sub w{q/{"message":"Content not available.","code":"404","raw":"/.$_[0]=~s/"/\\"/gr=~s/\\/\\x5C/gr.q/"}/}; $s="";$s=w($s) for 0..8; print$s,"\n";
22:50:12 <HackEso> {"message":"Content not available.","code":"404","raw":"{\x5C"message\x5C":\x5C"Content not available.\x5C",\x5C"code\x5C":\x5C"404\x5C",\x5C"raw\x5C":\x5C"{\x5Cx5C\x5C"message\x5Cx5C\x5C":\x5Cx5C\x5C"Content not available.\x5Cx5C\x5C",\x5Cx5C\x5C"code\x5Cx5C\x5C":\x5Cx5C\x5C"404\x5Cx5C\x5C",\x5Cx5C\x5C"raw\x5Cx5C\x5C":\x5Cx5C\x5C"{\x5Cx5Cx5C\x5Cx5C\x5C"message\x5Cx5Cx5C\x5Cx5C\x5C":\x5Cx5Cx5C\x5Cx5C\x5C"Content not available.\x5Cx5Cx5C\x5Cx5C\x5C",\x5
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23:13:31 <kmc> is everyone excited for the GPS week field rollover in ~47 minutes?
23:13:46 <kmc> midnite UTC
23:24:51 <int-e> what's the worst that could happen, hmm
23:27:33 <int-e> Oh there's an article in the news warning that old car GPS systems may fail. That's something.
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23:59:54 <kmc> ONE MINUTE TILL MIDNIGHT
00:00:06 <kmc> everybody died. RIP
00:00:36 * oerjan doesn't feel more dead than previously
00:01:17 <oerjan> although i cannot prove i've not long been a hallucinating ghost
00:06:20 <int-e> hmm, I wonder where I found this: "Hey, there! Are you hibernating or are you dead?" / "I'm not hibernating, I guess I must be dead. Funny,I don't remember being dead when I woke up this morning." / "Maybe it happened while you weren't looking." / "What if it happened a long time ago? What if I died, and all this time I've been living a lie?"
00:28:43 <oerjan> not anywhere google can see it, apparently.
00:35:06 <HackEso> 10880:2017-05-10 <wob_jonäs> slashlearn b_jonas can\'t spell//b_jonas can\'t spell these words: weird, hygiene, etymology, myopia, hibernate, carbohydrate, appearance, maintenance, appropriate, privilege, obsolete, heard, homogeneous, jealous; and confuses these sets of words: drought, draught/draft; couch, coach; depreciate, deprecate; dilate, dilute; contiguous, continuous; d \ 10878:2017-05-10 <wob_jonäs> learn b_jonas can\'t spell/b_jonas can\'t s
00:35:48 <oerjan> `1 doag | grep -v 'jonas can' | grep hibern
00:35:51 <HackEso> 1/1:5979:2015-09-13 <tsweẗt> le/rn sth/"sth" is short for "something that hibernates".
00:36:03 <oerjan> ok, so not in HackEso either.
00:36:23 <int-e> oerjan: nah the quote is too old for that. I'd suspect the old esolang list, except the archives say no.
00:36:57 <oerjan> hm, what about old usenet?
00:37:30 <int-e> Quite possible... but didn't google use to index that?
00:41:14 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60914&oldid=54860 * DMC * (+2)
00:42:38 <oerjan> groups.google.com seems to have old usenet posts
00:42:54 * oerjan searched for "har du kramat din varg"
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03:44:53 <HackEso> arothmorphise//arothmorphise ... antormo... antrohm... ant... oh bugger. This should go in the `misspellings of antrhrop... atnhro...' entry.
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14:04:27 <b_jonas> my hon. and learned friend fungot, what is the best starting pokemon?
14:04:27 <fungot> b_jonas: is the hon. and learned friend the member for sheffield, fnord more people are in work, and the world, our country might be resolved, the better the debate about prisons, that is ridiculous, and the very many, fewer people are in relative economic terms, we have been very much that finances the houthi. labour is clear that
14:04:56 <b_jonas> hmm wait, apparently they're called "starter" instead of "starting
14:05:00 <b_jonas> my hon. and learned friend fungot, what is the best starter pokemon?
14:05:00 <fungot> b_jonas: a clear and early commitment to a backstop, and the home secretary, to go with the success, or seeking to transfer the eu ones. on trade, and the question of the hon. member, yet that is the only data that includes
14:06:37 <HackEso> A pokemon is a monster that you keep in your pocket. Taneb invented them.
14:18:59 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl* youtube
14:19:38 <fungot> Selected style: ukparl (UK Parliament debates from brexit referendum to late 2018)
14:19:57 <FireFly> ah okay, so it's been updated with more recent debates(?)
14:20:36 <FireFly> or hmm, maybe the ukparl style isn't all that old, I could've sworn it was older but maybe I was thinking of europarl
14:21:27 <FireFly> fungot: so how do you feel about the deadline next week?
14:21:27 <fungot> FireFly: not a question time goes on, the more good young journalists, to non-governmental organisations,
14:21:34 <int-e> fungot: high treason!
14:21:35 <fungot> int-e: with the bill we have before us a bill to increase the number of fnord, herbal medicines directive to be modernised, more productive, and the secretary of the state, the state, leaving the secretary of state i have faced the house,
14:21:46 <FireFly> increase the number of fnord!
14:31:27 <b_jonas> my hon. and learned friend is practicing his skill to answer something other than the question. very good. my hon. and learned friend will need that, like any other politician that interacts with reporters.
14:32:06 <fizzie> `` words --pokemon 20 # maybe one of these
14:32:08 <HackEso> simisage hoos smear wig swinub rock lil forret bouff sudow magby dragong gas wartrio slow rat aland slowkin golduck pyuku
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14:34:09 <b_jonas> those are a bit short. what was the switch for words to influence the length of the words?
14:34:22 <b_jonas> ``` words --pokemon -l 20 10
14:34:23 <HackEso> valid datasets: --eng-1M --eng-all --eng-fiction --eng-gb --eng-us --french --german --hebrew --russian --spanish --irish --german-medical --bulgarian --catalan --swedish --brazilian --canadian-english-insane --manx --italian --ogerman --portuguese --polish --gaelic --finnish --norwegian --esolangs --opcode --pokemon \ default: --eng-1M
14:35:02 <b_jonas> ``` words --pokemon -0 14 10
14:35:07 <b_jonas> ``` words --pokemon -o 14 10
14:35:08 <HackEso> yamaurangroudowoobaltal zebstricketotodilyphlos crawlery spheatmonleef fariados tauroruntacoonguss doduosionnelby shupperior ribomalamperioluremolga beakie
14:35:12 <b_jonas> ``` words --pokemon -o 10 10
14:35:13 <HackEso> gothornadusken megantleon nihileplup shuckletterbug explous scashiftry tankelduckletchirl inklantinionee houndoof beautiflygonix
14:35:37 <b_jonas> Megantleon, Explou, Houndoof
14:35:41 <b_jonas> ok, wee need something in between
14:35:46 <b_jonas> ``` words --pokemon -o 6 10
14:35:47 <HackEso> trossom wishados alonferno ivysaurotodile rior trumakuhitarapin silvanha kraixen giratty rapionnelby
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15:12:58 <Taneb> <HackEso> A pokemon is a monster that you keep in your pocket. Taneb invented them. <--- I've been getting back into Pokemon recently, as it happens
15:13:22 <b_jonas> Taneb: video game or card game?
15:13:47 <Taneb> b_jonas: video game, I've been playing Silver which is on the 3DS Virtual Console store
15:13:59 <Taneb> Never played much of the card game
15:16:44 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: random-pokemon: not found
15:17:15 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pokedex: not found
15:18:30 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pokemon: not found
15:21:17 <fizzie> FWIW, the default length distribution should be the right one, it was trained from the real list.
15:21:39 <Taneb> ivysaurotodile was the Pokemon I started with!
15:21:42 <fizzie> `words --pokemon --esolangs 10
15:21:43 <HackEso> pie 2d-rever dewott brawlet sceptilectpar entropolis muncie dian l00p comeheadact
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15:59:02 <fizzie> `words --pokemon --finnish 10
15:59:03 <HackEso> pidennekiristeesteel kyläluksentäisi sigitoksesi petune naan logise celsken vertar tepitä slow
16:02:47 <b_jonas> hmm, so is "petune" supposed to be finnish or a pokemon?
16:07:44 <fizzie> It's supposed to be a Finnish Pokémon.
16:07:54 <fizzie> I don't think that worked so well though.
16:08:17 <fizzie> When you use more than one dataset, it interpolates between the models with equal weights.
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18:37:05 <HackEso> niew nani nielodostu nieciśleliście nającymi wuliński postopopiął radzanku prorozhardalizowa uwieliby
18:38:22 <HackEso> благащваща застребеше пикрелиен полеба противявай латапя петлоушна свиднахането пилия опняванавиха
18:59:38 <HackEso> tær ekkens trapphol tvinnres snaktkjæres undendehovervirkes halvine eiereie seggssvogn forbunderes lønnemaksjona vannhyllett slåske gauksliserike nevangsmingene kastidsmobjell skjøpskrysstavfisk diagningselse busikottekt kryssistrømming heroperienteretning forbitorskogbrokkbegrav urkorsvars vann camporvalutning
19:11:45 <FireFly> I believe so, should be 'water'
19:12:02 <FireFly> 'forbunderes' also looks like plausibly real norwegian
19:12:30 <HackEso> utständare anbersäkrat förste boxarna styckstade lovs presplandlande konciliserar närvsystades skildarwis årtens nyansöv ämbedåra fåta strateriser artogran fortroder språker guldkrämera definatsen stavinnlyst signakt sammanna direrna kapitetening
19:14:50 <FireFly> a couple others are very close to real I think
19:16:10 <HackEso> Usage: words [-dhNo] [DATASETS...] [NUMBER_OF_WORDS] \ \ options: \ -l, --list list valid datasets \ -d, --debug debugging output \ -N, --dont-normalize don't normalize frequencies when combining \ multiple Markov models; this has the effect \ of making larger datasets more influential \ -o, --target-offset change the target length offset used in the \
19:16:11 <HackEso> liittämäävällä pohtaan muhisessaan osajakseen suunneistanne luomimmilta kastasi kuoputomistä intumiksimpänä kanne paen ulkaviltä kivat lujoutamallennus mahtaan päätäisesi ihmillemme hylkeviimmalla popolustetämille puhallampasi
19:16:15 <HackEso> valid datasets: --eng-1M --eng-all --eng-fiction --eng-gb --eng-us --french --german --hebrew --russian --spanish --irish --german-medical --bulgarian --catalan --swedish --brazilian --canadian-english-insane --manx --italian --ogerman --portuguese --polish --gaelic --finnish --norwegian --esolangs --opcode --pokemon \ default: --eng-1M
19:16:45 * FireFly . o O ( --welsh would just be an alias for --mlp | rot13 anyway )
19:17:14 <FireFly> all of those look like plausible finnish to me :P
19:17:24 <b_jonas> it's easier for him to make real short words than long ones of course
19:17:38 <HackEso> còrr foid smeudag aorach fear mhaobh thàirde bhoc taisteach firean cùmhlair bùraidh foran fiùr choin phoilt mhadh geach clan fianair freag tàn sùbhlaid adh gaid
19:17:43 <HackEso> fograney greeit troo scuttaghtyr neuheayll meadagh broaie whee keragh slagh scalmynyn farrym nish hee oblagh vrat-chloin ferrey cragh henney aah kiadsyn ben-cag cornane toyrtooayl smuggys
19:17:48 <fizzie> And "mahtaan" could be colloquial first person present of v. mahtailla.
19:17:59 <fizzie> (Though really it's "mahtailen".)
19:20:35 <fizzie> And you could probably use "kastasi" when talking about some CCG or something where you cast spells, as a Finglish term.
19:21:35 <fizzie> One big problem with the Finnish model is that 3 letters of context is just not enough to maintain vowel harmony.
19:21:44 <kmc> i'm feeling very esoteric today
19:23:29 * kmc hugs everyone who would like a hug
19:23:36 <kmc> feeling very huggable too
19:23:53 <kmc> life's really good today and I want to share some of the love with all of you
19:25:01 <kmc> but I took LSD
19:25:10 <b_jonas> ah, I thought that was what this was all about
19:25:25 <fizzie> `sled bin/words//39s|@opt|sort &|
19:25:26 <HackEso> bin/words//#!/usr/bin/perl \ use strict; use warnings; \ use v5.10; \ use open qw( :encoding(UTF-8) :std); \ use File::Basename 'dirname'; \ use Storable 'retrieve'; \ use List::Util qw(sum min); \ use Getopt::Long qw(:config gnu_getopt); \ BEGIN { \ eval { \ require Math::Random::MT::Perl; Math::Random::MT::Perl->import('rand'); \ }; \ #warn "Optional module Math::Random::MT::Perl not found.\n" if $@; \ } \ \ #constants \ my @options = q
19:25:53 <kmc> what's all this?
19:25:59 <kmc> I don't know all the HackEso-magic
19:26:01 <kmc> seems v. esoteric
19:26:06 <b_jonas> we're using words to generate random words
19:26:17 <kmc> did I mention the first time I ever took psychedelics, I sat on a computer and it opened ghci for me
19:26:31 <kmc> and this was definitely a sign
19:26:48 <kmc> inexorably linking two things that would come to be very meaningful for me
19:27:01 <fizzie> kmc: `sled foo//bar is just "sed -i -e bar foo", it's just a convenience thing to avoid the issue where you do "sed -ie" and it makes a backup copy of the file "foo" named "fooe".
19:27:14 <fizzie> kmc: ...plus it prints the new contents, which is handy for files that fit in one line of IRC.
19:27:14 <b_jonas> what two things? ghc and computers?
19:27:43 <kmc> wait what does sed -e do
19:27:59 <HackEso> bürgestimmaßgewinzell kurten gängesche abgressunftie zug feltlos soptiviuz zustersirme smen verte behe selbachtensklavi bung sche ernsens wattunk polycellegspol vors uebergrungshoffen sonndeae wortausge gefähris ung herungsoproten seilbio
19:28:21 <b_jonas> those don't look particularly real.
19:29:02 <fizzie> It just sorted the output of -l; it could make some sense to keep them grouped manually somehow, but currently even the "real" languages were all jumbled up.
19:29:06 <HackEso> valid datasets: --brazilian --bulgarian --canadian-english-insane --catalan --eng-1M --eng-all --eng-fiction --eng-gb --eng-us --esolangs --finnish --french --gaelic --german --german-medical --hebrew --irish --italian --manx --norwegian --ogerman --opcode --pokemon --polish --portuguese --russian --spanish --swedish \ default: --eng-1M
19:29:35 <b_jonas> but "uebergrungshoffen"? at least write it as "übergrungschoffen" if you want to make it look real
19:30:11 <kmc> canadian-english-insane ?
19:30:32 <fizzie> kmc: The naming comes from the... aspell? ispell? one of those... dictionary names.
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19:30:50 <fizzie> That's what (I think) Phantom_*Hoover used to set it up.
19:31:47 <fizzie> So for some languages there are -small, -large, -huge and -insane variants of the dictionaries.
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19:33:19 <fizzie> b_jonas: I heard ẞ got accepted as a legal option for the uppercase ß, alongside SS.
19:35:28 <FireFly> Last I read about that in german, it depends on the nature of the text you're uppercasing... which is great, it now means we have collation rules that depend on semantics
19:35:46 <fizzie> Wikipedia wasn't that nuanced: "In 2016, the Council for German Orthography proposed the introduction of optional use of ẞ in its ruleset (i.e. variants STRASSE vs. STRAẞE would be accepted as equally valid).[9] The rule was officially adopted in 2017.[10]"
19:39:02 <b_jonas> meh, it's not like they can mess up anything worse than turkish i does
19:42:17 <b_jonas> it's not like other languages haven't tried to make orthography complicated, but not many things in the west get close to that
19:43:50 <b_jonas> does the i with tone marks keep the dot in vietnamese? is bulgarian and russian using the same script? do punctuation characters appear differently in chinese vs japanese vertical text without having separate unicode code points despite that kanji that appears differently usually have separate code points now?
19:43:59 <b_jonas> all small cake compared to the trouble that turkish i causes
19:44:24 <b_jonas> heck, turkish i causes terrible trouble regardless of how we try to handle it
19:44:38 <b_jonas> if we could go back and redesign computers and unicode from the start, it would still cause a problem
19:45:58 <zzo38> ASCII is OK, although still there is some things I would have designed differently in ASCII
19:46:11 <b_jonas> even if you had a time machine, it would be easier to assassinate Kemal Atatürk and hope for a saner orthography reform than to try to fix using it afterwards
19:49:20 <zzo38> For use of Chinese writing, maybe Cangjie encoding is OK
19:51:55 <HackEso> wisdom/mockingbird wisdom/modal logic wisdom/module wisdom/mojibake wisdom/mole wisdom/molum wisdom/monad wisdom/monads wisdom/monoid wisdom/monoidal category wisdom/monoids wisdom/monomorphism wisdom/monqy wisdom/month wisdom/montreal wisdom/moo wisdom/moon wisdom/mornington crescent wisdom/morphism wisdom/morphology wisdom/morse wisdom/mosquito wisdom/moth wisdom/mothball wisdom/mother wisdom/mothology wisdom/mousse
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19:56:13 <kmc> it's too bad that there's no way to hug people over the internet
19:56:27 <int-e> no, it's brilliant
19:57:00 <zzo38> (I do not mean the Cangjie input method, but rather the related Cangjie encoding, which can be produced directly by Cangjie input method though)
20:00:04 <int-e> kmc: but it's not that people haven't tried, using things like http://paste.debian.net/1076594/
20:02:19 <rain1> o/ hey kmc thye did game of life in baba is you
20:02:25 <rain1> https://twitter.com/fengchuiyulin/status/1110423064020480000
20:04:01 <rain1> if you scroll down he runs a glider gun in it, very nice!
20:07:24 <b_jonas> time to make an esolangs.org article about Baba is You then
20:08:02 <b_jonas> is it called "Baba is You" or "Baba Is You" or "Baba is you"?
20:08:09 <int-e> I think I'll be happy if I find out what I'm missing for the last achievement.
20:08:46 <int-e> Steam calls it "Baba Is You"
20:08:57 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, if you can actually describe how the rules of how it is work, then I might want to see, too
20:09:07 <b_jonas> nah, I'll just make a stub
20:10:15 <rain1> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D2nAmO0WoAEIJgT.png
20:10:20 <rain1> zzo38: it isexplained here
20:12:43 <zzo38> It is listing the rules but isn't explaining how the rules is working.
20:15:53 <esowiki> [[Baba Is You]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=60915 * B jonas * (+603) Created page with "'''Baba Is You''' is an puzzle video game that appeals specifically to esoteric programmers. It was released in 2019, but an early demo version with much fewer features was k..."
20:16:47 <b_jonas> hmm, is that the correct way to use "appeals"? should it be "appeals for esoteric programmers" instead?
20:16:47 <rain1> there are sentences made up of blocks which contain words that are classified into some groups. we could call them noun verb etc.
20:18:14 <rain1> each sentence is interpreted into game rules and the rules will be applied on each tick of the game
20:18:46 <myname> oh, we have game entries?
20:18:48 <rain1> the interpretation process is based on the sentence structure and nouns refers to game objects and each verb has a specific subroutine in the game code
20:19:22 <zzo38> Yes, but I would hope in esolang wiki you can write how all of the words are doing, and that stuff
20:19:25 <rain1> the list of interpretations and game code would be large and a lot of complexity
20:19:45 <zzo38> What you mention is good but doesn't mention each word doing
20:20:06 <rain1> example is PUSH, it means that any object that is YOU who moves onto the same square as a pushable object will result in the object attempting to move forward one
20:20:14 <rain1> its learned by playing the game
20:20:37 <zzo38> (at least, the words that are used in that Game of Life should be listed perhaps)
20:21:09 <rain1> x:noun is y:noun results in all x objects being turned into y objects in one tick
20:21:31 <int-e> I think I can follow https://pbs.twimg.com/ext_tw_video_thumb/1110422077813809152/pu/img/n1y8rQcU4_GKpOnk.jpg... nice use of shut/open/has.
20:23:08 <int-e> (I expected something completely different using way more different objects...)
20:23:49 <int-e> Does "eat" feature in the game? I don't recall it atm...
20:26:11 <esowiki> [[Talk:Baba Is You]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=60916 * Zzo38 * (+261) Created page with "Hopefully later more description can be added, such as how some of the words doing (at least the ones used in that Game of Life implementation, and then later possibly the oth..."
20:26:49 <int-e> And I guess the use of the ghost is just for cosmetic reasons.
20:26:57 <rain1> it could take some work to reverse engineer the game
20:27:02 <b_jonas> int-e: "different objects"? does that even matter? aren't they more or less interchangable?
20:27:02 <rain1> just by playing it lots
20:27:10 <rain1> to do a reimplementation
20:27:46 <b_jonas> isn't that like using different identifiers in a C program?
20:28:21 <int-e> b_jonas: I thought it would be hard to measure a stack of equal objects, but they found a way.
20:29:31 <int-e> b_jonas: so rather than doing that I was imagining to use one object for each of the 9 squares in the neighbourhood and then combine them in some unary counting fashion. It'd be far less elegant.
20:30:07 <int-e> (And much bigger as well, I guess.)
20:31:16 <b_jonas> that reminds me. shameless plug: https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/3434/shortest-game-of-life/112163#112163 obfuscated implementation of Game of Life
20:32:19 <b_jonas> hmm, does codegolf se have any answers in Baba Is You yet?
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20:35:00 <b_jonas> and have they agreed on how to measure code size in it yet?
20:39:29 <myname> i'd say similarly to befunge
20:40:09 <b_jonas> befunge is defined to read code from a plain text file.
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20:48:48 <myname> babanis you havibg pictures is just a cosmetic choice
20:49:16 <myname> it would just as well work with ascii characters if you define meaning to them properly
20:50:29 <myname> both have cells with a defined valuenthat acts in a certain way
20:50:41 <myname> befungenis not a billying automaton, though
20:51:00 <myname> there are some, but i don't know if they are used for golfing
20:51:01 <b_jonas> but the big difference is that Baba is You can have more than one object on a cell
20:51:17 <b_jonas> and also it doesn't have the language define a canonical source code representation
20:51:24 <myname> fair poikt, i didn't think of floating
20:52:03 <myname> object count is a good reference, but it lacks an expression of compactness imho
20:52:10 <b_jonas> int-e: and then you get into the same trouble as with live cell count in Life, where you can implement anything with a fixed (although pretty large) code size
20:52:12 <int-e> and perhaps add a log(w+h)
20:53:14 <int-e> Though that particular GoL implementation relies on a background (the tiles are essential), but there's no reason why that is necessary.
20:53:45 <b_jonas> int-e: no it doesn't I thin
20:53:56 <b_jonas> at least it relies on a background of nothing live
20:54:02 <b_jonas> with just a constant number of cells live
20:54:22 <int-e> https://twitter.com/fengchuiyulin/status/1110423064020480000 needs the tiles in the background to work.
20:54:26 <b_jonas> the thing that relies on a periodic background pattern is the magic to make messages travel faster than c/2
20:54:31 <int-e> that's what I'm saying.
20:54:41 <int-e> not talking about GoL.
20:54:49 <b_jonas> but can you fix that somehow?
20:54:54 <int-e> "that particular GoL implementation"
20:55:34 <b_jonas> I guess that might not be known yet, because Baba Is You programming is still young
20:55:37 <int-e> I'm sure it can be fixed... I mean, you can populate the level with tiles using the 'more' mechanic, for example
20:56:03 <b_jonas> isn't there a "Nothing" mechanic to populate the whole level with something?
20:56:18 <b_jonas> because Baba Is You prefers short words as keywords
20:56:19 <int-e> To my mind there's really no doubt that you can do that without the prepopulated background.
20:56:36 <int-e> like "DEFEAT" for "LOSE" ;-)
20:57:04 <int-e> (not all the words are short)
20:58:19 <int-e> There's nothing longer than 6 letters though... except that isn't exactly true either. Baba is fairly good at pushing the boundaries.
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21:06:13 <b_jonas> "ME"? they're using "YOU". it's in the name of the gamne
21:06:26 <b_jonas> they don't try to shorten below four letters I think, because four fit nicely in a square
21:06:58 <int-e> b_jonas: there's ME as well.
21:07:34 <int-e> for some reason ;)
21:19:28 <b_jonas> oh right! because YOU is a verb
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21:20:03 <b_jonas> so the verbs are the stuff like "IS"?
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21:29:04 <int-e> b_jonas: ME: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/baba-me.png
21:33:08 <b_jonas> the "TEXT" is more disturbing than the "ME" though
21:33:19 <b_jonas> mind you, "EMPTY" still is scarier than those
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22:11:40 <b_jonas> is ski boxing a tanebvention?
22:13:19 <HackEso> quantum mechanics? ¯\(°_o)/¯
22:20:04 <arseniiv> kmc: *hug hug* …though it has so little effect, yeah
22:25:07 <HackEso> quantum field theory? ¯\(°_o)/¯
22:25:16 <HackEso> quantum chromodynamics? ¯\(°_o)/¯
22:25:23 <HackEso> Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Klein bottles, string diagrams, linear logic, the reals, Lambek's lemma, Curry's paradox, Stone spaces, algebraic geometry, locales, and histograms.
22:25:31 <HackEso> tanebventions: physics? ¯\(°_o)/¯
22:25:38 <HackEso> Tanebventions include necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, metar, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, Italian, the grace period, the limerick, ruin, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths or tanebventions: foods. He never invents anything involving sex.
22:25:51 <b_jonas> there, you see? the universe
22:25:56 <HackEso> The universe was invented by Taneb as an opposing force to oerjan. Escardó proved that it was indiscreet.
22:25:58 <HackEso> A universe is a poem in one stanza.
22:28:57 <arseniiv> oh, Escardó… is that Martin Escardó, and why do I know that name?
22:29:20 <arseniiv> don’t remember why is he famous
22:30:49 <HackEso> my little pony? ¯\(°_o)/¯
22:32:59 <arseniiv> oh okay it’s HoTT, cubical types and something
22:33:09 <b_jonas> My Little Pony was invented by Laurent Faust, not by Taneb
22:34:22 <arseniiv> btw anyone could tell something about cubical types what could be more or less understood by someone knowing a handful about dependent types?
22:34:54 <HackEso> EARTH HAS 4 CORNER SIMULTANEOUS 4-DAY TIME CUBE IN ONLY 24 HOUR ROTATION. 4 CORNER DAYS, CUBES 4 QUAD EARTH. Bible A Lie & Word Is Lies. Navel Connects 4 Corner 4s. God Is Born Of A Mother - She Left Belly B. Signature. Your dirty lying teachers use only the midnight to midnight 1 day (ignoring 3 other days) Time to not foul (already wrong) bible time. Lie that corrupts earth you educated stupid fools.
22:35:11 <arseniiv> a time ago I looked at the article introducing them, though once only, and hadn’t understood
22:35:36 <arseniiv> just not time cube I swear I’ll behave
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22:37:25 <int-e> I guess it's the other kind of esoteric...
22:37:25 <arseniiv> I don’t please => there should be exclamation marks between each pair of words
22:37:58 <int-e> arseniiv: well you didn't please
22:38:07 <arseniiv> int-e: that time cue is oh I shouldn’t. It was expired for a good reason. Though you could google it at your own risk
22:38:32 <arseniiv> I was wounded just by reading _about_ it
22:39:18 <HackEso> cooperate//"Cooperate" is a common misspelling of "cōöperāte".
22:39:31 <int-e> . o O ( corporate )
22:40:13 <HackEso> Dr Gene Ray is the Greatest Philosopher, and is the Greatest Mathematician. Cubic Harmonics. Only Cubic Harmonics can save humanity. Cubic Harmonics will pacify all religions. 96-hour Cubic Day debunks 1-day unnatural god. 96-hour day willdisprove disunity god. Academians are teaching - pseudocience. Worshipping a Word God will destroy the USA.
22:40:20 <int-e> . o O ( chocolate moose )
22:40:38 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, the moose mousse, as in that MLP episode titled MMMM
22:40:48 <int-e> arseniiv: I guess it's not really more painful than some of the terrible puns we have here.
22:41:39 <int-e> (now *that* was a spoiler.)
22:41:52 <fizzie> There's a pretty time-cube-ish thing I don't quite remember the name of back in Finland, preached by a guy who goes around with his self-published books in a cart, seen him around the university campus a few times.
22:42:20 <int-e> b_jonas: what's MLP?
22:42:35 <fizzie> Ether vortices, that was it.
22:42:41 <fizzie> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kauko_Armas_Nieminen
22:43:38 <b_jonas> int-e: and the episode is actually not quite titled that, it's https://mlp.fandom.com/wiki/MMMystery_on_the_Friendship_Express
22:44:09 <b_jonas> and the mousse moose looks like https://mlp.fandom.com/wiki/File:Chocolate_mousse_moose_at_door_S2E24.png
22:44:12 <int-e> ... why did I ask.
22:44:31 <b_jonas> it's the cake that's titled MMMM
22:44:35 <arseniiv> int-e: hmmm I still think you quite underestimate the scale of that TC thing
22:45:40 <int-e> arseniiv: The Baba one? Not sure what you mean by scale.
22:46:10 <int-e> arseniiv: TC is hard-wired in my mind.
22:46:16 <arseniiv> int-e: (now *that* was a spoiler.) => oh. Is that intentional all the way down?
22:46:29 <HackEso> Tc is the abbreviation for Technetium, an element so sophisticated that it does not exist naturally.
22:46:30 <HackEso> TG is short for Turing-Gödel, the highest possible level of difficulty for a multiplayer game. At this level, it's undecidable whether you can manage to halt before losing or not.
22:47:41 <int-e> (CR is Church-Rosser. Not Carriage Return.)
22:47:45 <arseniiv> int-e: TC is hard-wired in my mind. => I like ambiguous abbreviations too :P
22:48:05 <int-e> arseniiv: you are an evil person.
22:48:10 <int-e> arseniiv: welcome to the club.,
22:48:42 <b_jonas> maybe he traveled back in time to rearrange the Phoenician alphabet so that that rot13 thing works out
22:49:16 <int-e> arseniiv: shachaf was unhappy when I pointed out that "Schaf" is "sheep" in German :)
22:49:52 <int-e> And it's still the closest "real" word I know of.
22:50:33 <HackEso> int-e är inte svensk. Hen kommer att spränga solen. Hen står för sig själv. Hen gillar inte färger, men han gillar dissonans. Er hat ein Hipster-Spiel gekauft.
22:50:37 <arseniiv> it reminds me how I was posting something on ggroups and it did take 4 on my email
22:51:17 <int-e> Nobody pointed out the Swedish word "inte" when I picked that nickname.
22:51:32 <int-e> I guess it was more of a handle, at the time.
22:51:49 <b_jonas> oh, as for nicks resembling real words, I hearby requesting that if you make a porthello from my nick, you try to use "jó napot" rather than "bonjour"
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22:53:55 <HackEso> Hellonfused one. Porthellos are the standard greeting format in #esoteric. Best enjoyed with some thé or caffè and a fternooner.
22:54:42 <fizzie> Being recorded in wisdom is a very low bar of officialdom.
22:54:44 <int-e> . o O ( Rosser, Returning in a Carriage from Church = Church-Rosser Carriage Return )
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22:58:14 <arseniiv> …wait I haven’t had time to say b_ciaonas
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23:00:35 * kmc hugs arseniiv
23:01:57 <fizzie> `slwd hms pinafore//s|^/||
23:01:58 <HackEso> hms pinafore//HMS Pinafore is just some infernal nonsense, according to general majority opinion.
23:02:28 <fizzie> I'm pretty sure it had an unintentional leading slash, from the fact that `le/rn uses / instead of the more common // as a delimiter.
23:21:06 <HackEso> le/rn makes creating wisdom entries manually a thing of the past. Usage: `le/[/]rn <key>//<wisdom>
23:21:29 <HackEso> wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and, uh, that other one? It started with, like, an ø?
23:22:06 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: nohuglist: not found
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23:28:59 <fizzie> Right, guess it's been fixed.
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01:05:47 <oerjan> <FireFly> 'forbunderes' also looks like plausibly real norwegian <-- it's not, but "tær" is
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01:36:03 <oerjan> "forbundenes" is real, and "forbinderes" is at least hypothetically so
01:38:20 <oerjan> ...yeah, both are, although the former has about 10 times as many google hits.
01:38:28 <oerjan> (although some may be danish.)
01:40:12 <oerjan> actually danish spelling should be "forbundernes"
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02:08:14 <oerjan> <fizzie> kmc: `sled foo//bar is just "sed -i -e bar foo", it's just a convenience thing to avoid the issue where you do "sed -ie" and it makes a backup copy of the file "foo" named "fooe". <-- surely the main convenience is not having to escape things for the shell.
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02:11:28 <shachaf> maybe there should be a general don't-escape-thing-for-the-shell command
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02:34:44 <oerjan> <b_jonas> hmm, does codegolf se have any answers in Baba Is You yet? <-- doesn't look like it
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03:09:43 <HackEso> ops:/msg ChanServ access list #esoteric
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04:01:35 <kmc> shachaf: hichaf
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06:25:39 <zzo38> I was writing NNTP server software, maybe I will add a POSTPIPE command which is like POST but if there is an error before the message is completed (even if before the message is started), for the convenience for users who do not use specialized NNTP software.
06:30:24 <shachaf> int-e: I started up the game and there was a new level (Research Facility), but it was pretty easy.
06:31:07 <zzo38> Do you think it is good?
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06:37:48 <TheWild> what "programming languages" do you know that exhibit minimal human intervention... I mean like something that could probably get in-sync with some alien race.
06:38:45 <TheWild> lambda calculus was like this, except the Church numerals are just PITA. Also, SK combinator calculus was like this. Iota language was like this.
06:39:34 <TheWild> Brainf**k is NOT like this and programming languages in common use (at least AFAIK) are NOT like this.
06:41:22 <kmc> are you asking for the Platonic ideal of a programming language?
06:41:33 <kmc> or like, if we sent some code to aliens, what language would we use so they could understand it?
06:44:26 <zzo38> I think there is no guarantee that they could understand it, but, I suppose you can try to make it more likely by your choice, maybe, but you can still fail at it
06:45:36 <TheWild> no English words, that's first. Or at most very minimal set of words.
06:46:09 <TheWild> OISC could do it. I think their NSA equivalent could figure it out.
06:46:50 <TheWild> btw, I don't remember I ever done such abuse of acronyms in the past.
06:47:49 <zzo38> But how do you know what they have?
06:47:54 <kmc> if you only want to provide code that they can *run*
06:48:13 <kmc> then it's easy to illustrate an automaton
06:48:18 <kmc> with e.g. a state transition diagram
06:49:02 <kmc> or you can pretty easily explain S and K with diagrams alone
06:49:50 <kmc> provide that plus some examples and they'll figure it out
06:49:58 <zzo38> But, can you know if they can understand the diagram? I think that is potentially difficult, too.
06:50:12 <kmc> well, it could be
06:50:21 <kmc> but you're only trying to express "this shape turns into this other shape"
06:50:44 <kmc> you have to indicate the direction of time somehow
06:50:56 <kmc> and the idea that this is a sequentially executing lanugage and not, say, a constraint-solving system
06:51:34 <kmc> although if it's a pure functional languages then that doesn't really matter
06:51:57 <zzo38> Yes, that is some stuff too, to consider
07:03:49 <TheWild> to get rid of that pain, in theory we could calculate on lambda and SK using binary numbers in some way. We have vireo bird, we can keep pairs of booleans, we can keep pairs of pairs of booleans...
07:04:07 <TheWild> and the most basic positional numeral system points out to be binary
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10:43:30 <esowiki> [[Teg]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=60917 * A * (+581) First edit
10:49:07 <esowiki> [[Teg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60918&oldid=60917 * A * (+303)
10:56:53 <esowiki> [[Teg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60919&oldid=60918 * A * (+1127) /* Simple documentation */
10:58:27 <esowiki> [[Teg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60920&oldid=60919 * A * (+107)
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12:10:40 <esowiki> [[Teg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60921&oldid=60920 * A * (+214) /* Examples */
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12:16:37 <esowiki> [[Teg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60922&oldid=60921 * A * (+78) /* FizzBuzz program */
12:16:50 <esowiki> [[Teg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60923&oldid=60922 * A * (+2) /* Fibonacci sequence */
12:20:28 <esowiki> [[Teg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60924&oldid=60923 * A * (+123) /* Fibonacci sequence */
12:22:31 <esowiki> [[Teg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60925&oldid=60924 * A * (+59) /* Deadfish interpreter */
12:23:33 <esowiki> [[Teg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60926&oldid=60925 * A * (+56) /* Factorial */
12:25:55 <TheWild> yet another esolang? Oh gosh, I could change my "yet-another-turing-tar-pit" to use just 6-bits per opcode and use only characters from base64 repetitoire.
12:28:01 <TheWild> = 16 bits of RAM, 8 of which are I/O mapped to an address/data register of some bigger RAM.
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13:25:36 <int-e> Hrm, after digging a bit in the data files, I rather suspect that I'm lacking the final Baba Is You achievement due to a bug :/
13:27:21 <int-e> But of course there may be something incredibly silly to do that I didn't...
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18:49:04 <zzo38> Has anyone tried to work to implementing some of this yet? http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/web_browser
19:25:46 <imode> no, but I'm working on reinventing the web.
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19:46:47 <rain1> i make a gopher client
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21:07:16 <esowiki> [[RarVM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60927&oldid=60738 * Void * (+64)
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21:49:36 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Emg * New user account
21:55:34 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60928&oldid=60872 * Emg * (+212) Add introduction
21:55:45 <esowiki> [[BytePusher]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60929&oldid=60086 * Emg * (+111) Add my (emg) bytepusher vm to the list
22:12:09 <arseniiv> int-e: hi, maybe you remember, in the level vfynaq cevfba should I make jnyy vf chfu or something other?
22:13:20 <arseniiv> so far it’s the one I have absolutely no clue even after several glances
22:13:27 <b_jonas> iv as in roman 4, or iv as in the independent vars of pokemons, or iv as in intraveneous input
22:13:49 <int-e> arseniiv: I don't remember where the levels are by name.
22:14:19 <fizzie> b_jonas: For some reason I always thought the Pokémon concept was the same as the IV of cryptography, initialization vector.
22:16:08 <b_jonas> it's probably something like {initialization,individual,independent,integer} {vector,values}, and it might not even have an official expansion, because it's probably just named "IV" by whichever players reverse engineered that part
22:16:34 <b_jonas> {initialization,individual,independent,integer} {vector,values,variables}
22:21:09 <int-e> arseniiv: no, the trick really isn't in making a new sentence there...
22:21:30 <arseniiv> (hm I have no sense what’s that about so almost possibly my variant isn’t even funny)
22:23:01 <b_jonas> arseniiv: you know, in the video games, pokemons have these attribute thingies like strength, dexterity, constitution, intelligence, wisdom, charisma, except not quite those because that's the traditional D&D player attributes set, and some of them tell how much damage the pokemon does while the others are mostly irrelevant
22:23:40 <b_jonas> and in some of the older games, the set of those attributes for a pokemon have less than full entropy, they are characterized by a much smaller random vector than how much the values can apparently take
22:23:52 <b_jonas> and that smaller vector is called VI
22:24:32 <int-e> sounds like crypto... initialization vector?
22:25:01 <arseniiv> int-e: thank you. Then maybe fubhyq v pbzr bhg gb jva be jva or fbzrubj chyyrq gb gur ebbz?
22:26:00 <fizzie> int-e: That's what I said to start this going.
22:26:33 <fizzie> Well, to push it along at any rate, it was already moving.
22:26:36 <int-e> Oh. I'm not paying attention as usual.
22:26:59 <b_jonas> int-e: ok, that's what fizzie says too
22:27:20 <int-e> arseniiv: lbh'er ybbxvat sbe n ivbyngvba bs culfvpf
22:27:27 <fizzie> b_jonas: I think we might be a biased sample.
22:27:41 <fizzie> Didn't find much support for "initialization vector" on the webs in the Pokémon context.
22:28:03 <fizzie> "individual values" was pretty popular.
22:28:25 <b_jonas> I guess we could just ask ais
22:28:36 <b_jonas> it could even be "individual variation"
22:28:54 <arseniiv> int-e: I thought so but have still to find out what it should be precisely. Thanks!
22:29:16 <b_jonas> intrinsic virtues, intensive vibrations
22:31:19 <b_jonas> because they're not shown in the interface
22:31:55 <fizzie> `` for (( i=0;i<16;i++ )); do echo $(grep '^i' share/dict-words | grep -v "'" | shuf -n 1) $(grep '^v' share/dict-words | grep -v "'" | shuf -n 1); done
22:31:58 <HackEso> isomorphic vented \ insomniac vulcanizing \ insignia vessel \ incriminatory valance \ idealizing vireo \ icily void \ inflicts vault \ irrigates veneering \ incinerated verges \ imp vulgarizes \ impersonal valeted \ interlinked vises \ immobilize viewpoint \ inveighing vivifies \ inventiveness valeting \ identifiable virginal
22:33:59 <fizzie> Actually, let's get some parts of speech knowledge in there.
22:34:02 <fizzie> `` for (( i=0;i<10;i++ )); do echo $(wn i -grepa | grep '^i' | shuf -n 1) $(wn v -grepn | grep '^v' | shuf -n 1); done
22:34:10 <HackEso> inescapable vibe \ insensitive visual cell \ in high spirits virazole \ intersexual vacation \ ingrown vanderbilt \ inordinate verification \ inexpiable verpa \ intended value-system \ interred value \ inharmonious veterinary
22:34:22 <fizzie> Hm, should've filtered out spaces.
22:34:31 <b_jonas> how could I forget one of my favourite words. they're *instance* variables, because they're specific to a pokemon instance, not to a pokemon type
22:35:24 <fizzie> `` for (( i=0;i<10;i++ )); do echo $(wn i -grepa | grep -v ' ' | grep '^i' | shuf -n 1) $(wn v -grepn | grep -v ' ' | grep '^v' | shuf -n 1)s; done # I'm sure that works for all plurals
22:35:27 <HackEso> intraspecific varlets \ inhumed venturesomenesss \ imbricate viverridaes \ infamous vedalias \ incommutable voles \ incautious velazquezs \ innoxious vacuums \ inhospitable volkhovs \ inspired viyellas \ intensifying vivas
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22:35:44 <fizzie> "incommutable voles" is my guess.
22:38:08 <b_jonas> yeah, the vivas can't be right. vivas are like potions, they may help your pokemon in a battle like increase their HP or something, but I don't think they change the IVs
22:44:20 <fizzie> `mkx bin/acronym//w="${1:-tla}"; (for (( i=0;i<${#w};i++ )); do grep -i "^${w:$i:1}[a-z]*\$" share/dict-words | shuf -n 1; done) | xargs
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22:48:16 <b_jonas> ``` (for x in {0..19}; do words --eng-us 25; done) | perl -e 'local$/; /^[iIvV]/ and print"$_ " for split" ",<STDIN>;'
22:48:25 <HackEso> virtanatorum ver itz vastri intratorytonife vdi irhtnitchev isone volvc iiusoi van von ixtle inhard ironedc iovic voe iaphilli vsee igiddltlo versini inanca inngestei ister vik
22:49:14 <b_jonas> volvc is probably some technical term with the "vc" standing for "vector" and the "vol" standing for "volumetric"
22:50:19 <fungot> int-e: an eu interest, i will need to have the people, space, nation and sector. even this government, would not dealing, the reassurance given by article 50.
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22:53:23 <fizzie> fungot: Sorry, I don't feel very reassured by article 50, especially these days.
22:53:23 <fungot> fizzie: but of course, and the uk to avoid a debate rather than a government acting.
22:54:00 <fizzie> fungot: And I think we've managed to avoid exactly the latter instead of the former.
22:54:00 <fungot> fizzie: are the government as to the possibility, and one of the more than a pub programme) and 30, and time and money afterwards can often have to be present, but
22:55:25 <fungot> monkeystance: is the hon. and learned friend the minister for that, and i fnord the crown is the abbey, the burial of the single jew who, almost in the next sentence, honestly, and switzerland, and the fact of the matter is of course, we have the debate,
22:55:45 <fizzie> You might not get much help over there, I'm afraid.
22:55:51 <HackEso> monkeystance: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
22:56:21 <int-e> Is there an explanation of the honorable/learned/member/friend etiquette? Does learned refer to some sort of higher education?
22:57:46 <monkeystance> why does fungot seem like a conspiracy theorist?
22:57:46 <fungot> monkeystance: as the hon. member the leave of the house, certainly every single mp, that the government
22:58:13 <fungot> arseniiv: will the hon. and learned friend the minister for our constructive of contributions, partly to the much discussed issue of open and closed it.
22:58:14 <HackEso> fungot is our beloved channel mascot and voice of reason.
23:04:49 <monkeystance> for people who make obscure programming languages to hang out?
23:06:37 <zzo38> That is a part of it yes. If you have stuff to discuss about esoteric programming language then you can discuss that too, though.
23:13:17 <HackEso> “Sane Mapoleon” boily is monetizing a brotherhood scheme with the Guardian of Lachine. He is also a NaniDispenser, a Trigotillectomic Groan Man Eating Chicken, a METARologist, seriously lacking in the f-word department, a thwack doctor, a Quintopial antipodist, and a renowned Capitalist who helps keep the world kafkaesque.
23:14:11 <HackEso> wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and, uh, that other one? It started with, like, an ø?
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23:14:43 <int-e> wisdom.pdf is a snapshot of the collected wisdom of this channel, more or less.
23:15:26 <int-e> Unfortunately the editor hardly ever (or never?) comes here anymore.
23:16:36 <monkeystance> well it definitely is a collection of something
23:17:05 <zzo38> Do you know if there is a way in SQLite to optimize queries from the assumption that "ORDER BY X,Y" and "ORDER BY Y,X" are the same order?
23:17:27 <arseniiv> monkeystance: also if you are into category theory, for instance, this is discussed too. And, umm, take a look at the logs for a couple of days, there are a lot of other topics. Can’t describe them all, I’m here not too long
23:17:44 <zzo38> Yes, look at logs to see what is on this channel, if you want to do
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23:19:39 <arseniiv> e. g. there is a fine line how much to spam the bots in public is still not frowned upon, and I can’t tell where exactly it lies
23:21:31 <arseniiv> int-e: btw there should be a patch adding “fungot is hon. and learned” to Baba Is You
23:21:32 <fungot> arseniiv: we will be working to. they will not, and that this is the fnord fnord own information indicating the effect. we have no deterrents, and my right, simply because the government are
23:22:06 <arseniiv> also isn’t it time to switch their style?
23:22:33 <int-e> Naaaa, Brexit is still a hot topic :P
23:22:38 <arseniiv> now I also start seeing something conspiratory
23:24:05 <int-e> I think the style is changed at very erratic intervals, though only a few styles surivive more than half a dozen queries.
23:24:13 <int-e> (the youtube one, for example, is awful)
23:25:45 <zzo38> Are you going to add any further styles?
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23:30:06 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl* youtube
23:30:56 <fizzie> Yeah, many of those are not so good.
23:31:21 <zzo38> Maybe replace them with better ones then
23:31:57 <fizzie> Personally I think "irc" and "europarl" are the ones that work best as far as conversation goes, ISTR "sms" was pretty lifelike but not so often used, "ct" holds a certain charm but gets repetitive fast, and that's about it.
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23:34:09 <int-e> Discworld is a fun guessing game... which book is it quoting? It has a strong tendency to produce literal quotes.
23:34:25 <int-e> (for some values of "fun")
23:34:49 <zzo38> Would there be a style of Magic: the Gathering? Would there be a style to use all styles together?
23:35:16 <fizzie> We used to have an actual guessing game over at #douglasadams on the IRCnet side. It would quote three lines from one of the five books, and the first person to say the number of the book won a point.
23:36:15 <fizzie> It would be convenient to have an on-the-fly "all the styles together" mode, but that's a bit too much work to implement in Befunge.
23:36:23 <int-e> `Your !!!!! !!!!! !!!!! year mission is to !!!!! !!!!! !!!!! !!!!!,
23:36:23 <int-e> !!!!! !!!!! !!!!! !!!!!, land !!!!! !!!!! !!!!! a safe distance !!!!! !!!!!
23:36:23 <int-e> ..... ..... ..... .... , land ..... ..... .....
23:36:42 <int-e> Yeah I can see how that would be fun ... I'd fail for this one.
23:37:17 <fizzie> There's that one part in the prologue that's word-for-word identical in 4 and one of the earlier books.
23:37:19 <zzo38> Can you make a precomputed "all the styles together" mode?
23:37:23 <int-e> I guess I don't remember those books all that well anymore. Maybe I can now read them for a fifth or so time :)
23:38:00 <arseniiv> !!!!! !!!!! !!!!! !!!!! => I’m starting to panic there
23:38:02 <fizzie> int-e: I deduced 5 because that's what the Grebulons were doing.
23:38:24 <fizzie> zzo38: In theory. I would probably need to prune some of them, since I think a few styles are close to the file size limits.
23:40:07 <fizzie> It might be I could use srilm's ngram-merge tool if I wrote a script to do the conversion backwards. The way most of those are trained are using the VariKN toolkit, which produces standard .arpa files, and then I have an "arpa2fungot.pl" script to generate the files the bot understands.
23:40:07 <fungot> fizzie: as the hon. member the leave of the house, wringing, with lines such as
23:40:15 <fungot> Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script)
23:40:39 <zzo38> (I also have my GURPS game story recording, although I am guessing that there is not enough data to use that, I think.)
23:40:48 <int-e> fungot: script much?
23:40:48 <fungot> int-e: need a clone? the magician, nolstein bekkler! executing program. please let me go... put me out! he's really a tricycle! pass him!
23:41:21 <int-e> fungot: if you take a wheel of a tricycle, do you get a bicycle then?
23:41:21 <fungot> int-e: you! take! we find! aaahhhh! hey! is that for us! the chef's in a snit, trying to get food to the front lines. heard a spell to energize the sword takes immense evil! indeed! this thing. what you have? transform! this trading house. it's the kind! i've decided to stay with these humans! you're a traitor! you're not our king! but, we are far outnumbered!
23:41:53 <fizzie> I probably haven't figured out the best VariKN parameters for the application, though, since I don't think the later styles work all that well. The few earliest ones used a much simpler handmade C++ thing.
23:42:53 <fizzie> At least we got that bug fixed which caused to get it stuck in a loop all the time.
23:45:22 <oerjan> fizzie: it has a command to get the styles and select a style, surely those can be combined *ducks*
23:46:15 <fizzie> Taking that seriously, a random *fixed* style would be easy enough to add.
23:46:27 <int-e> oerjan: Are you asking for a fungot autostylist?
23:46:27 <fungot> int-e: must think of a way to the ocean palace?
23:46:43 <fizzie> fungot: That'd probably be a good idea, it's not a safe place to be.
23:46:43 <fungot> fizzie: these unique items make us invincible! well...yes. are you sure this is money...
23:46:45 <oerjan> int-e: as long as it does pedicure
23:47:09 <int-e> @google "chrono trigger"
23:47:10 <lambdabot> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrono_Trigger
23:47:52 <fizzie> I remember most of the bits it's quoting from, in this style.
23:48:19 <oerjan> fizzie: and once you have a way to select a random style, you could add a flag to run that before each babbling, or something...
23:48:43 * int-e gives oerjan a quiz-zical look.
23:48:47 <fizzie> oerjan: Right, but I mean, "use all styles" would mean merging all the models.
23:49:26 <oerjan> right, but given that this started as a mention of a guessing game, i assumed each babble should be from only one...
23:49:57 <fizzie> The "unique items" are for the sidequest refights of Ozzie/Flea/Slash, "you! take! we find!" is from Ayla's time, the chef's in a snit in 600AD, "you're not our king" is from the easter egg-ish thing of bringing Magus to meet Ozzie in the late-game...
23:50:22 <fizzie> "he's really a tricycle! pass him!" is from one of the funnier special endings.
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23:55:53 <oerjan> <b_jonas> ok time for the bleach <-- . o O ( his mind has finally had enough )
23:56:59 <oerjan> if i didn't know b_jonas had a habit of sometimes speaking about house chores, that would be the most likely interpretation.
23:59:34 <HackEso> The password of the month is invalid.
00:03:42 <int-e> `learn The password of the month is 68657861646563696D616C.
00:03:44 <HackEso> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is 68657861646563696D616C.
00:03:56 <int-e> (I hope we haven't done that one yet.)
00:04:09 <int-e> (We did have "alphanumeric".)
00:09:31 <oerjan> <int-e> Is there an explanation of the honorable/learned/member/friend etiquette? Does learned refer to some sort of higher education? <-- wikipedia had some. iirc: honorable member = general MP, friend = same party, learned = lawyer
00:09:37 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/log/tip/wisdom/password
00:10:07 <int-e> monkeystance: it's just a running gag.
00:13:47 * int-e had to google why qjkxbmwvz is a lousy password.
00:15:05 <monkeystance> int-e, I think computerphile has a good video on password security
00:15:53 <fizzie> `` perl -e 'print pack("H*", "68657861646563696D616C");' # just checking
00:18:10 <int-e> monkeystance: you may be overestimating the seriousness of this channel.
00:19:15 <HackEso> brainfuck is the integral of the family of terrible esolangs. The name is a euphemism for "beef". bf -c -t "+>+++++>+++" | mklang --array
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01:30:52 <esowiki> [[RarVM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60930&oldid=60927 * Void * (+174)
01:33:56 <esowiki> [[RarVM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60931&oldid=60930 * Void * (-1)
01:42:33 <oerjan> int-e: also "right" means member of the queen's privy council, a most peculiar body.
01:42:34 <esowiki> [[RarVM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60932&oldid=60931 * Void * (+93)
01:44:18 <oerjan> iirc part of it is the supreme court of some non-UK commonwealth countries (i may be mixing that up)
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01:47:52 <esowiki> [[RarVM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60933&oldid=60932 * Void * (+419) /* Next steps */
01:54:04 <esowiki> [[RarVM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60934&oldid=60933 * Void * (+209)
02:03:52 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Void * uploaded "[[File:Zmq6w93bbho21.png]]"
02:05:30 <esowiki> [[RarVM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60936&oldid=60934 * Void * (+336)
02:21:39 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Void * uploaded "[[File:Screenshot from 2019-04-09 04-20-58.png]]"
02:24:13 <esowiki> [[RarVM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60938&oldid=60936 * Void * (+162) /* Evolving programs */
02:38:21 <esowiki> [[RarVM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60939&oldid=60938 * Void * (+1883)
02:41:24 <esowiki> [[RarVM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60940&oldid=60939 * Void * (+38) /* The principle of least authority */
02:43:06 <esowiki> [[RarVM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60941&oldid=60940 * Void * (-3)
02:51:37 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Void * uploaded "[[File:Recursivecontrol.png]]"
02:53:13 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Void * uploaded "[[File:Recursivecontrol2.png]]"
02:53:43 <esowiki> [[RarVM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60944&oldid=60941 * Void * (+70) /* Language overview */
02:54:40 <esowiki> [[RarVM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60945&oldid=60944 * Void * (-1) /* Machine cooperation, the very big picture */
03:01:10 <esowiki> [[RarVM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60946&oldid=60945 * Void * (+116) /* Language overview */
03:04:03 <esowiki> [[RarVM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60947&oldid=60946 * Void * (-8) /* Implementations */
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03:24:42 <esowiki> [[90]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60948&oldid=60473 * Ais523 * (+8) editing to fix a link target is fine, but you need to work the new link target into the sentence
03:44:31 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * GarryM * New user account
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07:03:24 <b_jonas> int-e: https://esolangs.org/logs/2019-04-08.html re explanation of the "hon. and learned friend" and other forms of address
07:06:22 <b_jonas> "<zzo38> Would there be a style of Magic: the Gathering? Would there be a style to use all styles together?" => \? roborosewater for the former, ^style fungot for the latter
07:06:22 <fungot> b_jonas: cyrus! are you leaving! you've got to be joking!?
07:14:45 <HackEso> 423) <fungot> tswett: last argument must be a cub scout!! have you made your money-drop today??
07:14:55 <HackEso> 83) <fax> okay I see it now, quines do exist
07:16:00 <HackEso> 918) <shachaf> what are some good concurrency primitives <ais523> shachaf: how primitive do you want?
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08:13:56 <esowiki> [[Text]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60949&oldid=54594 * A * (+217) /* Development of a compiler */
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08:22:59 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Dtuser * New user account
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09:06:00 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60950&oldid=60928 * Dtuser * (+206) /* Introductions */
09:17:54 <esowiki> [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60951&oldid=58308 * JonoCode9374 * (+76)
09:20:45 <esowiki> [[Drive-In Window]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60952&oldid=60254 * Dtuser * (+24) The interpreter for this programming language is implemented.
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11:35:19 <fizzie> Things that are just: https://hack.esolangs.org/tmp/paste/paste.15102
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12:08:09 <wob_jonas> I ran into a particularly annoying bug in this software I didn't write, but where the code I wrote exercises the bug that you'd normally not meet, so now I'll have to clean it so that the program doesn't randomly crash later.
12:14:03 <wob_jonas> Apparently I managed to create a corrupt file with some strange operations I did.
12:34:41 <wob_jonas> fizzie: why is indexed monad twice in that?
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12:36:22 <HackEso> Xor is just addition of nimbers.
12:36:23 <HackEso> ^ (also notated by ⊕ or ⊻) is the exclusive-or operator; ∧ (also notated by /\ or &) is the and (conjunction) operator; ^ (also notated by ↑ or ** or ⋆) is the power operator.
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12:57:57 <fizzie> wob_jonas: The file of it has got two lines for some reason, and that's (slightly transformed) what came out of gwrp.
12:58:00 <fizzie> `` wc -l wisdom/'indexed monad'
12:58:50 <HackEso> 3151:2013-06-18 <shachäf> sed -i \'2s/$/./\' wisdom/indexed\\ monad \ 3150:2013-06-17 <shachäf> echo \'Indexed monads are just monads on an indexed category\' >> wisdom/\'indexed monad\' \ 3149:2013-06-17 <shachäf> mv \'indexed monad\' wisdom/
12:59:45 <HackEso> Monads are just monoids in the category of endofunctors.
12:59:46 <HackEso> Monads are just free monad monad monad algebras.
13:00:24 <fizzie> `` find wisdom -type f -exec wc -l '{}' + | grep -v '^ *1 '
13:00:25 <HackEso> 2 wisdom/bdsmreclist \ 0 wisdom/rules of wisdom \ 0 wisdom/funpuns \ 2 wisdom/indexed monad \ 1558 total
13:11:34 <wob_jonas> ``` set -e; cd wisdom; for f in *; do test -e "${f}s" && echo "$f"; done;
13:11:35 <HackEso> emac \ funpun \ justice \ monad \ monoid \ number \ o \ oop \ the u
13:11:37 <HackEso> The eMac, released in 2002, was the first model of Macintosh computer to use electricity.
13:11:39 <HackEso> emacs is the weird brother of nano.
13:11:45 <HackEso> funpuns fceƀ fbz fryyrev naq pbfcynlf Arcrgn Yrvwba ba jrrxraqf. Ur ungrf oryy crccref jvgu n cnffvba. Gur havg bs sha chaarel vf anzrq nsgre uvz.
13:11:46 <HackEso> Dhrra Funpuns bs gur Qnja fceƀ fbz fryyrev naq pbfcynlf Arcrgn Yrvwba ba jrrxraqf. Ur ungrf oryy crccref jvgu n cnffvba. Ur qbrfa'g xabj jura gb fgbc nfxvat dhrfgvbaf. Gur havg bs sha chaarel vf anzrq nsgre uvz.
13:12:11 <wob_jonas> ``` \? funpun | tr N-ZA-Mn-za-m A-Za-z
13:12:13 <HackEso> shachaf sprƀ som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends. He hates bell peppers with a passion. The unit of fun punnery is named after him.
13:12:36 <wob_jonas> ``` \? funpuns | tr N-ZA-Mn-za-m A-Za-z
13:12:37 <HackEso> Queen Shachaf of the Dawn sprƀ som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends. He hates bell peppers with a passion. He doesn't know when to stop asking questions. The unit of fun punnery is named after him.
13:12:41 <HackEso> Justice is just behavior or treatment.
13:12:42 <HackEso> Justices are just members of the Supreme Court.
13:12:47 <HackEso> The number of the hour is 14.
13:12:48 <HackEso> Numbers: 0, 848, 1344, 1696, 1969, 2192, _, 2544, 2688, 2817, _, 3040, _, _, 3313, 3392, ...
13:12:56 <HackEso> Os is the accusative plural of us. Alsø a village in Denmark. Ånd a Norwegian spirit.
13:13:01 <HackEso> OOPS (Obligatory Oblivious PunS) is a variant of OOP.
13:13:02 <HackEso> OOP (Obligatory Opportunistic Pun) is a popular technique for naming things, thus solving zero of the hard problems in computer science.
13:13:06 <HackEso> The U are a very mad people.
13:16:45 <HackEso> Dhrra Funpuns bs gur Qnja fceƀ fbz fryyrev naq pbfcynlf Arcrgn Yrvwba ba jrrxraqf. Ur ungrf oryy crccref jvgu n cnffvba. Ur qbrfa'g xabj jura gb fgbc nfxvat dhrfgvbaf. Gur havg bs sha chaarel vf anzrq nsgre uvz.
13:17:08 <HackEso> 'wisdom/funpuns' -> 'wisdom/funpun'
13:17:11 <HackEso> Dhrra Funpuns bs gur Qnja fceƀ fbz fryyrev naq pbfcynlf Arcrgn Yrvwba ba jrrxraqf. Ur ungrf oryy crccref jvgu n cnffvba. Ur qbrfa'g xabj jura gb fgbc nfxvat dhrfgvbaf. Gur havg bs sha chaarel vf anzrq nsgre uvz.
13:17:15 <HackEso> Dhrra Funpuns bs gur Qnja fceƀ fbz fryyrev naq pbfcynlf Arcrgn Yrvwba ba jrrxraqf. Ur ungrf oryy crccref jvgu n cnffvba. Ur qbrfa'g xabj jura gb fgbc nfxvat dhrfgvbaf. Gur havg bs sha chaarel vf anzrq nsgre uvz.
13:34:49 <wob_jonas> today I learned that when linux added real posix-like threads, they actually made the existing _exit syscall exit just a thread, and added a new syscall called group_exit that exits all threads of the current process, and the libc _exit function actually calls the latter. this is scary.
13:35:26 <wob_jonas> I'm also trying to look up some other details about thread internals, but they're mostly buried deep inside the kernel and libc, so I can't find much
14:01:12 <int-e> Hmm I don't see why this is scary.
14:01:31 <int-e> (threads, yes. but syscall naming?)
15:22:20 <HackEso> test failed. HackEgo-JUnit is not available.
15:26:30 <fungot> tswett[m]: but cyrus! are you leaving! who the heck are you?! c'mon!!
15:27:17 <fungot> tswett[m]: shall we get back to the present? he's been known. we reptites will rule the world in a mere door that keeps us bound, hand, foot...and tongue kid? ...oh, it's you, isn't this morbid? the great adventurer toma levine rests in a grave to the north. it's a great place for a picnic! heard that magus's place...
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17:24:54 <esowiki> [[Talk:Polynomial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60953&oldid=55275 * Areallycoolusername * (+155)
17:25:04 <esowiki> [[Talk:Polynomial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60954&oldid=60953 * Areallycoolusername * (-1)
17:59:10 <esowiki> [[Polytran]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=60955 * Areallycoolusername * (+1547) Created page with "Polytran is an [[esoteric programming language]] that is a mix between [[Polynomial]] and [[Fortran]], made by [[User: Areallycoolusername|Areallycoolusername]]. It was inspir..."
18:27:36 <rain1> I wonder if anyone has gone on https://www.theproofistrivial.com/ and gotten a genuinely valuable insight from it
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19:22:46 <arseniiv> rain1: sometimes it says sensible things e. g. “Just view the problem as a // compact // group // whose elements are // non-degenerate // linear transformations”
19:23:02 <arseniiv> about valuable insights, though…
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19:55:38 <esowiki> [[BotEngine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60956&oldid=45534 * SuperJedi224 * (+38)
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20:49:18 <b_jonas> "<int-e> fungot: if you take a wheel of a tricycle, do you get a bicycle then?" => you know that tom7 has done some research on a similar topic, right?
20:49:18 <fungot> b_jonas: it's time you jumped off this mortal coil...
20:49:28 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct* darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
20:49:42 <b_jonas> that's not a nice thing to say, fungot
20:49:42 <fungot> b_jonas: by thy leave, crono?!! you brought back my cat! thank you, crono!
20:51:29 <fizzie> It was also a verbatim quote. This style is prone to do those.
20:51:33 <fungot> Selected style: ff7 (Full script of the game Final Fantasy VII)
20:51:38 <fizzie> Maybe changing games would help.
20:51:53 <fizzie> fungot: Are you more friendly now?
20:51:53 <fungot> fizzie: at least i thought i gave this to the id security check area. the use of getting gossip on everyone? everyone's here?
20:54:21 <fizzie> Heh, that sounds almost like the normal IRC style.
20:56:31 <esowiki> [[Teg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60957&oldid=60926 * Salpynx * (-53) this is not rewriting, I'm changing the paradigim
20:58:22 <b_jonas> int-e: https://youtu.be/mNTj05I4k5I Unlikely Bikes: The Unibicle (from 2016)
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21:31:00 <b_jonas> I'm looking for airplane tickets, within Europe
21:31:40 <b_jonas> the rules of this airline says that check-in baggage has a maximum size of 1.58 m for sum of length and width and depth. that's actually quite small. I'm not used to such a small limit.
21:32:07 <b_jonas> you can bring oversized luggage, but it costs a lot
21:32:25 <shachaf> Why do people measure things like that?
21:32:53 <b_jonas> shachaf: because they don't want to list like three different sets of three maximum dimensions
21:34:52 <oren> clearly the most efficient shape is a suitcase shaped like a perfect 52 cm cube
21:35:33 <oren> I should start a line of cube shaped baggage products
21:36:12 <b_jonas> shachaf: the local transport in Budapest has the rule that each piece of baggage must be sized at most 0.4x0.5x0.8 or 0.2x0.2x2 meters, and you can take two pieces of such baggage. there are certain exceptions, most importantly for baby carriages.
21:36:50 <b_jonas> this means in effect that many people who carry adult sports equipment or a large musical instrument are technically disobeying the rules
21:37:01 <b_jonas> mind you, this is just one of the many rules that are often disobeyed
21:38:05 <b_jonas> you're technically also not supposed to eat on the buses, and you're only allowed to take dogs if they are either in a box or (on a leash and wearing a muzzle guard)
21:39:08 <b_jonas> oren: it's not so simple, because I also want to put the luggage in the automatic luggage cabins in airports or stations, and such a cube would be hard to fit
21:39:46 <b_jonas> it would also be inconvenient on the train and other transport from and to the airpor
21:45:24 <b_jonas> I'm reading the rules for what you aren't allowed to put in hand luggage, and what you aren't allowed to put in check-in luggage.
21:45:33 <b_jonas> As usual this specifically mentions throwing stars.
21:45:53 <b_jonas> It also says that you aren't allowed to put "billiard, snooker and pool cues" in your hand luggage
21:46:18 <b_jonas> I wonder how you'd fit one in hand luggage anyway
22:01:01 <b_jonas> OK, I booked the airplane for vacation
22:01:18 <b_jonas> that's the cheaper part, I'll also have to book accomodation
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23:42:38 <arseniiv> opened a plenty of new places in BIY and played a level in each, nice
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00:13:44 <HackEso> Dhrra Funpuns bs gur Qnja fceƀ fbz fryyrev naq pbfcynlf Arcrgn Yrvwba ba jrrxraqf. Ur ungrf oryy crccref jvgu n cnffvba. Ur qbrfa'g xabj jura gb fgbc nfxvat dhrfgvbaf. Gur havg bs sha chaarel vf anzrq nsgre uvz.
00:13:50 <HackEso> Queen Shachaf of the Dawn sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends. He hates bell peppers with a passion. He doesn't know when to stop asking questions.
00:14:34 <oerjan> i guess b_jonas deleted the right one.
00:20:03 <int-e> I'd say, the 's' should clearly be part of the entry name :P
00:23:20 <HackEso> [U+00F8 LATIN SMALL LETTER O WITH STROKE] [U+0180 LATIN SMALL LETTER B WITH STROKE]
00:24:59 <oerjan> someone made rot13 more semantic
00:25:07 <HackEso> #!/hackenv/bin/shebang_args_or_input python \ \ import re, sys, unicodedata as U \ def tr(c): \ m = re.match(r'(.*\bLATIN\b.*\bLETTER )([A-Z])\b(.*)', U.name(c, '')) \ if m: \ p, q, r = m.groups() \ n = ord(q) - ord('A') \ try: \ return U.lookup(p + chr(ord('A') + (n + 13) % 26) + r) \ except KeyError: \ return c \ return c \ \ def tr2(c): \ d = tr(c) \ if d != c: \ r
00:28:02 <int-e> Anyway, I'm soory I missed the singular funpun entry when I updated the plural one.
00:28:36 <HackEso> 11772:2019-04-09 <wob_jonäs> `` mv -vi wisdom/funpun{s,} \ 11748:2019-03-04 <int-̈e> ` echo -n $(cat wisdom/shachaf) The unit of fun punnery is named after him. | rot13 > wisdom/funpuns \ 7399:2016-04-17 <boil̈y> rm wisdom/funpuns \ 7398:2016-04-17 <boil̈y> le/rn_append funpuns/Gur havg bs onq chaarel vf anzrq nsgre uvz.
00:28:47 <HackEso> 11772:2019-04-09 <wob_jonäs> `` mv -vi wisdom/funpun{s,} \ 11771:2019-04-09 <wob_jonäs> forget funpun \ 11105:2017-07-21 <Jafët> slwd funpun//s/\xc3\xb8/\xc6\x80/ \ 7401:2016-04-17 <shachäf> ` sed -i \'s/onq/sha/\' wisdom/funpun \ 7400:2016-04-17 <boil̈y> le/rn_append funpun/Gur havg bs onq chaarel vf anzrq nsgre uvz. \ 5814:2015-07-09 <oerjän> ` rot13 < wisdom/shachaf >wisdom/funpun \ 4367:2014-01-25 <oerjän> r13 <wisdom/shachaf >wisdom/funp
00:28:47 <int-e> Well, regenerated it.
00:29:08 <shachaf> whoa, they aren't rot13 of each other.
00:29:55 <shachaf> I guess I'm not an expert on fun puns.
00:34:29 <fizzie> The last few days have made the bulk of my use of urxvt's ctrl-right-click context menu.
00:34:38 <fizzie> (It has a rot13 option.)
00:35:10 <shachaf> I have a keybinding to rot13 the contents of the clipboard.
00:35:16 <shachaf> But it doesn't help so much with viewing.
00:36:00 <fizzie> The urxvt thing rot13's the contents of the primary selection, but also briefly shows it in a corner-of-the-window overlay thing.
00:36:09 <fizzie> (It's very brief, though.)
00:36:43 <shachaf> I used to use urxvt but now I don't.
00:37:04 <fizzie> It also has a "convert newlines to spaces" tool.
00:37:12 <shachaf> Seems it still doesn't support changing the font size dynamically.
00:37:13 <fizzie> But I think I'd still like to set up something like your indicators.
00:37:23 <fizzie> Well, I mean, very clunkily it does.
00:37:34 <shachaf> I rewrote my indicator program to monitor X11 selection-changed events.
00:37:49 <fizzie> URxvt.keysym.C-minus: command:\033]710;xft:Tamzen:pixelsize=13, DejaVu Sans Mono:pixelsize=10\007
00:37:51 <shachaf> It was polling once a second but the delay between changing clipboard size and seeing it updated was annoying me.
00:38:11 <fizzie> That's what I use when I move a terminal to the lower-DPI monitor sometimes.
00:38:30 <shachaf> Maybe I'll just write my own terminal emulator.
00:39:03 <fizzie> You do have to set URxvt.insecure on to use that option, which is annoying, especially if you spend time around places like this where all kinds of bytes come and go.
00:39:33 <shachaf> Oh, you set urxvt options through text prited in the terminal?
00:39:38 <shachaf> Can you execute arbitrary commands that way?
00:40:35 <fizzie> It's not exactly through text printed, the "command:" action prefix for a keybinding parses it as a control sequence.
00:40:51 <fizzie> But the "insecure" flag is the same for both. I'd prefer to enable it only for these "internal" things.
00:41:14 <fizzie> The "right" way to do this would be to use one of the Perl extensions written for controlling the font size.
00:41:26 <fizzie> (And then just trigger that extension from the key binding.)
00:41:39 <shachaf> Maybe the right way would be to just have that built in?
00:41:54 <shachaf> Changing the font size is one of relatively few things I want my terminal to do.
00:42:19 <fizzie> When I was looking at this, there were at least two different urxvt extensions to do it, I'm not sure why I discarded them.
00:42:35 <fizzie> But yes, it would be nice if it supported that as a feature.
00:43:27 <fizzie> https://github.com/simmel/urxvt-resize-font I think is the better one, in that it's at least not too many lines.
00:46:05 <fizzie> Although I think "insecure: true" is also required for window title setting, which I kind of like.
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02:00:30 <oerjan> i'm sure it's perfectly fine czech.
02:01:19 <oerjan> although wiktionary doesn't know it.
02:05:20 <pikhq> I am just tired, because moving be like that.
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02:32:44 <fizzie> `mkx bin/explain//wn "${1:-explain}" -n1 -hypen -hypev | sed -e '1,/^Sense/d;/^$/,$d' | tr '\n' ' ' | sed -e 's/ */ /g'
02:32:51 <HackEso> word => language unit, linguistic unit => part, portion, component part, component, constituent => relation => abstraction, abstract entity => entity
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05:23:37 <esowiki> [[MiniStringFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60958&oldid=50538 * Salpynx * (-2) also not re-writing
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09:17:35 <wob_jonas> oerjan: yes, I looked at the history. at one point boily appended to both wisdom/funpun and wisdom/funpuns , where one existed before, and from that point on both existed in parallel
09:18:12 <wob_jonas> int-e: the s is part of the name, which is what the wisdom body says, but IMO it shouldn't be in the wisdom name so that both `? funpuns and `? funpun works
09:18:41 <wob_jonas> this way people can find the entry even if they don't know that it's not the plural of funpuns
09:51:56 <wob_jonas> The good thing with the internet is that there's so much of them. I'm listening to music from the internet, but if I don't like a piece of music, I can switch to a different one.
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10:38:21 <wob_jonas> also, it's about time for a new o. someone upload it.
11:51:25 <Taneb> wob_jonas: outstanding is when someone is upright in an outdoors position, as in "that scarecrow is outstanding in his field"
11:53:45 <wob_jonas> I see. so tall buildings are outstanding, eg. I live in an outstanding house.
11:55:04 <Taneb> See also "outlier"
11:58:23 <Taneb> As in, "Not many scarecrows have fallen over, but that one over there is an outlier"
12:03:41 <fizzie> Interesting, WordNet ranks the one sense higher than the other.
12:03:46 <lambdabot> *** "outlier" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
12:03:46 <lambdabot> n 1: a person who lives away from his place of work
12:03:46 <lambdabot> 2: an extreme deviation from the mean
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13:22:38 <esowiki> [[CARfish]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=60959 * A * (+751) Created page with "[[CARfish]] is an esolang that tries to make experiences of [[Deadfish]] worse. (It has the same four commands, though.) CARfish started out from two separate languages: Map(..."
13:26:27 <esowiki> [[CARfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60960&oldid=60959 * A * (+447)
13:30:07 <esowiki> [[CARfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60961&oldid=60960 * A * (+178) /* ANTS documentation */
13:46:07 <esowiki> [[CARfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60962&oldid=60961 * A * (+689) /* ANTS documentation */
13:51:39 <esowiki> [[CARfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60963&oldid=60962 * A * (+4) /* ANTS documentation */
14:05:11 <esowiki> [[CARfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60964&oldid=60963 * A * (+67) /* Map documentation */
14:08:59 <esowiki> [[CARfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60965&oldid=60964 * A * (+557)
14:10:50 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60966&oldid=60693 * A * (+106) /* Variants of deadfish */
14:12:18 <esowiki> [[CARfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60967&oldid=60965 * A * (+43)
14:19:47 <esowiki> [[CARfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60968&oldid=60967 * A * (+70)
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15:42:40 <esowiki> [[Control Character]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60969&oldid=60818 * EnilKoder * (+940)
15:45:34 <esowiki> [[RarVM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60970&oldid=60947 * Void * (+111) /* Examples/Use cases */
15:47:20 <kmc> Taneb: there's a dairy near San Francisco called Clover, and all of their marketing involves terrible puns
15:47:31 <kmc> one of which is "Our cows are outstanding in their field"
15:51:36 <Taneb> I know my joke wasn't original, but I don't know where I stole it from
15:53:16 <kmc> it tickles me that you can get on the subway here and ride out to a place where you can see cows standing around from the train
15:54:30 <Taneb> I think you can do that on the Tyne & Wear Metro, too
15:54:59 <Taneb> I grew up being able to see cows standing around from my bedroom, and I do miss it
15:56:14 <esowiki> [[RarVM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60971&oldid=60970 * Void * (+423) /* Local, social network or market based cooperative resource sharing between devices */
15:56:19 <HackEso> 108) <CakeProphet> how does a "DNA computer" work. <CakeProphet> von neumann machines? <Phantom_Hoover> CakeProphet, that's boring in the context of DNA. <Phantom_Hoover> It's just stealing the universe's work and passing it off as our own. \ 172) <Sgeo> My quotes are boring \ 327) <oklopol> yes i use the services of a psychic, but i'm considering getting a live one since stuff like "hello $name, your first name $first_name has |$first_name| letters, s
15:56:33 <esowiki> [[RarVM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60972&oldid=60971 * Void * (+1) /* Cooperative resource sharing between devices= */
16:03:30 <esowiki> [[Control Character]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60973&oldid=60969 * EnilKoder * (+136)
16:05:19 <HackEso> 327) <oklopol> yes i use the services of a psychic, but i'm considering getting a live one since stuff like "hello $name, your first name $first_name has |$first_name| letters, so by using numerology we can tell ..." is getting kind of boring
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16:08:02 <esowiki> [[Control Character]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60974&oldid=60973 * EnilKoder * (+20)
16:11:26 <arseniiv> “JawSig is a programming language where the code is assembled from jigsaw tiles and should resemble a jaw and someones’s signature to compile”
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17:07:11 <esowiki> [[Polytran]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60975&oldid=60955 * Areallycoolusername * (+2959) Added code explanations and an example
17:09:28 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60976&oldid=60910 * Areallycoolusername * (+15) /* P */
17:11:59 <esowiki> [[Polytran]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60977&oldid=60975 * Areallycoolusername * (+109)
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18:16:49 <esowiki> [[BytePusher]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60978&oldid=60929 * Emg * (+17) Update line count on my (emg) bytepusher VM
18:20:25 <esowiki> [[RarVM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60979&oldid=60972 * Void * (+95) /* Language overview */
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19:01:57 * int-e wonders whether http://blog.lczero.org/2019/04/announcing-lcz-worlds-first-neural-net.html would satisfy zzo38's Z-machine cravings for the month.
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20:05:19 <b_jonas> "<Taneb> I grew up being able to see cows standing around from my bedroom, and I do miss it" => what how? you aren't so young that you already had the world wide web and internet access at home when as grew up
20:07:46 <Taneb> a) I'm afraid I rather am that young. I remember my dad showing me the web when I was 6 or 7
20:07:50 <Taneb> b) I meant out the window
20:08:10 <HackEso> Tanebventions include necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, metar, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, Italian, the grace period, the limerick, ruin, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths or tanebventions: foods. He never invents anything involving sex.
20:08:31 <HackEso> Culinary tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, weetoflakes, mushrooms, nutella, and cognac.
20:09:00 <b_jonas> but we already knew of sand when I was young. we played with it in the park.
20:09:24 <Taneb> Your mistake is assuming I'm not going to invent a time machine
20:09:29 <HackEso> Italian is the most melodious language known. Taneb invented it to sing better in the shower.
20:10:20 <b_jonas> just yesterday, our boss requested that we use a time machine to satisfy some too short deadline that a customer demands
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20:30:08 <esowiki> [[BytePusher]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60980&oldid=60978 * Emg * (-17) Don't need to be so specific about how many lines my VM is, it keeps changing
20:41:51 <b_jonas> ``` rev <<<"evil stun trap wolf dial drawer loop rail tide doom emit peek repair ward gulp loot moor reed"
20:41:51 <HackEso> deer room tool plug draw riaper keep time mood edit liar pool reward laid flow part nuts live
20:42:15 <b_jonas> ``` rev <<<"evil stun trap wolf dial drawer loop rail tide doom emit peek repaid ward gulp loot moor reed"
20:42:16 <HackEso> deer room tool plug draw diaper keep time mood edit liar pool reward laid flow part nuts live
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22:14:32 <esowiki> [[BytePusher]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60981&oldid=60980 * Emg * (+20) Mention new minified VM
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23:11:19 <HackEso> 6 random numbers \ `whoops \ `words \ abyss \ all the single objects \ all the tropes \ ambiguous \ ananas \ b_jonas \ brontosaurus \ chaos \ chess \ chuck norris \ cls \ comics \ complexity class \ css \ culprits \ dingas \ emacs \ fentimans \ for further details \ glados \ glass \ hambiguitous \ hand injuries \ hfs \ hippothalamus \ inverness \ jesus \ justices \ lens \ lystrosaurus \ madness \ magnus \ magus \ maths \ mipis \ mips \ monads \ monoids \
23:11:42 <oerjan> i guess i didn't make it go both ways
23:12:04 <lambdabot> KDEN 102309Z 36021KT 1/4SM R35L/1800V2400FT SN FZFG VV006 M03/M04 A2964 RMK AO2 PK WND 36027/2304 TWR VIS 1/2 P0000 T10331044 $
23:12:32 <oerjan> sadly int-e got fed up of that trick and made lambdabot ignore HackEso
23:12:57 <oerjan> (probably because of `? weather)
23:13:04 <HackEso> lambdabot: @@ @@ (@where weather) CYUL ENVA ESSB KOAK PAMR
23:13:19 <lambdabot> ENVA 102250Z 13008KT CAVOK M03/M10 Q1030 RMK WIND 670FT 14007KT
23:13:38 <oerjan> it seemed more springy last week...
23:14:38 <HackEso> #!/bin/bash \ icao="$(airport "$*" | sed -e "s/.*, //;s/)//" | shuf -n 1)" \ echo lambdabot: @metar "${icao:-$1}"
23:14:44 <pikhq> It seemed more spring-y yesterday, for that matter.
23:15:18 <oerjan> `sled bin/metar//s,lambdabot:,You probably mean,
23:15:19 <HackEso> bin/metar//#!/bin/bash \ icao="$(airport "$*" | sed -e "s/.*, //;s/)//" | shuf -n 1)" \ echo You probably mean @metar "${icao:-$1}"
23:15:32 <HackEso> You probably mean @metar LFCH
23:16:08 <HackEso> You probably mean @metar vaernes
23:16:49 <HackEso> You probably mean @metar SAOV
23:16:59 <kmc> @metar KSFO
23:17:00 <lambdabot> KSFO 102256Z 27021KT 10SM FEW200 18/08 A3026 RMK AO2 SLP246 T01780078
23:17:07 <oerjan> it's guessing seems a bit random
23:18:40 <HackEso> You probably mean @metar ENVA
23:19:04 <HackEso> #!/bin/bash \ icao="$(airport "$*" | sed -e "s/.*, //;s/)//" | shuf -n 1)" \ echo You probably mean @metar "${icao:-$1}"
23:19:30 <lambdabot> KOAK 102253Z 26014KT 10SM FEW200 19/10 A3025 RMK AO2 SLP242 T01940100 $
23:19:34 <HackEso> You probably mean @metar KPTK
23:19:44 <HackEso> Oakland County International Airport (PTK, KPTK)
23:20:09 <shachaf> a county-owned public-use airport located in Waterford Township, Oakland County, Michigan, United States
23:20:32 <kmc> I was trying to get weather reports over APRS yesterday, but aprsdroid can't decode them :(
23:21:06 <pikhq> KDEN isn't really the nearest airport here, but it's the nearest one with an ICAO code I remember.
23:23:59 <oerjan> `# Thaneb//`learn Outstanding is when someone is upright in an outdoors position, as in "that scarecrow is outstanding in his field".
23:24:02 <HackEso> Learned 'outstanding': Outstanding is when someone is upright in an outdoors position, as in "that scarecrow is outstanding in his field".
23:25:17 <HackEso> last: cannot open /var/log/wtmp: No such file or directory
23:28:11 <oerjan> `slwd outstanding//s,that,That,
23:28:13 <HackEso> outstanding//Outstanding is when someone is upright in an outdoors position, as in "That scarecrow is outstanding in his field".
23:29:23 <HackEso> files="$(lastfiles)"; sed -i "$1" "$files"
23:29:29 <HackEso> 11491:2018-04-12 <oerjän> slwd shavention//s;sedlast;&/pled; \ 10243:2017-02-13 <shachäf> sedlast s/.$/ yet&/ \ 9834:2016-12-03 <shachäf> sedlast 1299s/call/hail/ \ 9515:2016-10-29 <oerjän> sled bin/sedlast//s/; echo.*// \ 9123:2016-09-29 <shachäf> sedlast s#with a pasjon#and passion fruit# \ 9013:2016-09-06 <shachäf> sedlast s# twh#. That would help.#;s# #, # \ 8915:2016-08-13 <oerjän> sedlast skur.*korrendousk \ 8914:2016-08-13 <shachäf>
23:30:54 <oerjan> sedlast seems to have slipped off my memory sieve
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23:38:00 <fizzie> Now that there's the $IRC_HOST variable, for uncloaked users `metar could do some geolocation to pick up a likely airport.
23:39:13 <fizzie> When the other thing fails, that is.
23:41:51 <oerjan> `le/rn time machine//A time machine is something Taneb will eventually have to invent to fix the fact that many of his inventions are older than him.
23:41:52 <HackEso> Learned 'time machine': A time machine is something Taneb will eventually have to invent to fix the fact that many of his inventions are older than him.
23:41:56 <fizzie> `` acronym IATA; acronym ICAO
23:41:57 <HackEso> insensitive altercation tannest aerobatics \ interspersing chessman Armageddon Osbert
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23:43:10 <HackEso> topically lousiness attendant
23:43:36 <fizzie> I think that's actually the default.
23:43:39 <HackEso> tufting Longstreet aerated
23:44:12 <fizzie> `` acronym TSA; acronym DHS # topical
23:44:13 <HackEso> tusk Sprint annually \ decathlons hardy sneaked
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23:45:31 <fizzie> Like fungot, I think these usually aren't very good, but sometimes you get a good one. Randomness seems to be like that.
23:45:31 <fungot> fizzie: there's something stuck deep in my power to use on your journey. seeing that makes you lose perspective.
23:46:01 <shachaf> fizzie: I generated some audio samples randomly but they seemed to consistently not be very good.
23:46:06 <int-e> . o O ( I feel like adding some more grammar: `slwd time machine//s/have to invent/have to would having had invented/' )
23:47:40 <fizzie> shachaf: I don't know, but maybe the goodness subset of the whole domain of "audio samples" in general is thinner than that of random words put together.
23:47:41 <int-e> @google Dan Streetmentioner
23:47:41 <lambdabot> https://hitchhikers.fandom.com/wiki/Dan_Streetmentioner
23:48:00 <shachaf> fizzie: To be fair, maybe some of the samples were pretty good.
23:48:21 <fizzie> int-e: I think that should have "wiollan" or other tenses like that then.
23:48:21 <shachaf> It's just I was generating 44100 per second and I never got enough good ones in a row.
23:48:48 <shachaf> I think 0 is a pretty good one, for instance.
23:49:04 <int-e> fizzie: Quite possibly. There's a reason why I haven't actually made the change... the execution felt inferior :)
23:49:48 <fizzie> Looks like "wiollan" wasn't one of them. But "wioll" and "willan" were.
23:50:43 <fizzie> "You can arrive (mayan arivan on-when) for any sitting you like without prior (late fore-when) reservation because you can book retrospectively, as it were when you return to your own time. (you can have on-book haventa forewhen presooning returningwenta retrohome.)"
00:01:32 <int-e> This is hard. Maybe: ... will eventually have on-invent haventa a time machine forwhen presooning inventwentaa pre-Taneb.
00:02:38 <int-e> (Douglas Adams wasn't Tolkien. Tolkien would probably have worked out an actual grammar rather than making up some patterns on the spot. :P)
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00:09:50 <fizzie> I've almost resigned to just buying the Baba game, because of all the talk about it here.
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00:31:10 <kmc> what is baba is you
00:31:14 <kmc> and why is everyone talking about it
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00:35:17 <fizzie> It's a videogame/esolang (but more a videogame than esolang). There's a slightly stubby article in the esolangs wiki about it though.
00:36:04 <fizzie> You push things around, but some of those things are the words that tell the world how to behave.
00:36:11 <kmc> I'll check it out
00:36:29 <fizzie> It's also very frustrating to watch other people to play it, at least for me.
00:36:46 <int-e> That's a nice way of putting it. ("World, behave!")
00:37:29 <shachaf> I like watching other people play it.
00:37:42 <shachaf> But admittedly that's after I played it and already know how the rules work.
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05:04:47 <HackEso> brexit is a command to forcefully exit, releasing 1GB of free space.
05:06:22 <oerjan> `le/rn_append brexit//If not enough force is available, the command will repeatedly delay itself.
05:06:24 <HackEso> Learned 'brexit': brexit is a command to forcefully exit, releasing 1GB of free space. If not enough force is available, the command will repeatedly delay itself.
05:08:10 <oerjan> `le/rn_append brexit//This command has a known bug where it will repeadly delay itself if not enough force is available.
05:08:13 <HackEso> Learned 'brexit': brexit is a command to forcefully exit, releasing 1GB of free space. This command has a known bug where it will repeadly delay itself if not enough force is available.
05:08:35 <oerjan> `slwd brexit//s,pead,peated,
05:08:37 <HackEso> brexit//brexit is a command to forcefully exit, releasing 1GB of free space. This command has a known bug where it will repeatedly delay itself if not enough force is available.
05:09:26 <oerjan> `slwd brexit//s,has a known,was recently discovered to have a,
05:09:27 <HackEso> brexit//brexit is a command to forcefully exit, releasing 1GB of free space. This command was recently discovered to have a bug where it will repeatedly delay itself if not enough force is available.
05:17:29 <oerjan> on the flip side, looks like uk may get an extra scary halloween this year
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12:08:04 <wob_jonas> I asked for an olist, and didn't get that, but at least we have an
12:08:23 <wob_jonas> `ehlist http://eheroes.smackjeeves.com/comics/2774640/shes-really-somethin/
12:08:24 <HackEso> ehlist http://eheroes.smackjeeves.com/comics/2774640/shes-really-somethin/: b_jonas
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16:26:44 <esowiki> [[User:Areallycoolusername]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60982&oldid=60567 * Areallycoolusername * (+15) /* Full List of languages I Made */
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18:40:04 <int-e> This is an excellent point... "environmental protection" is misleading terminology for what should really be called "self-preservation".
18:41:33 <LKoen> it's a bad nash equilibrium
18:49:39 <kmc> around here, the Sierra Club blocks transit oriented development
18:49:54 <kmc> they fought to save a "historic parking garage"
18:50:44 <kmc> they want to have fewer people living here (only the wealthy) but what that actually means is longer commutes, primarily by CO₂ producing cars
18:51:10 <kmc> the "california environmental quality act" is largely used to preserve parking and roads
18:51:14 <kmc> I agree in the general case though
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19:35:38 <oren> b_jonas: the israeli moon lander. crashed into the surface at over 100 m/s
19:35:59 <b_jonas> hmm. what was the planned speed?
19:36:22 <j4cbo> was supposed to be a soft touchdown
19:36:33 <b_jonas> yeah, tricky naming system
19:37:04 <b_jonas> "probe" if it is to crash, "lander" if it is to touch down
19:43:12 <kmc> what went wrong?
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19:55:59 <arseniiv> wait, is it really crashed? It seemed so joyful one moment on that stream when I looked at it
19:57:12 <arseniiv> I hoped for pictures of the Moon in 4k or something…
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20:14:03 <Taneb> kmc: engine cut out, it lost too much altitude before they could reset
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21:02:08 <b_jonas> There's a certain narrative that I'd like to suggest we add to esolangs mythology.
21:02:52 <b_jonas> This one goes back to the prehistory in the seventies, when we had esolangs like Intercal.
21:04:44 <b_jonas> So there was this hacker Dennis Ritchie who made an esoteric language called C. And all the other esolangers laughed at him, saying that it wasn't an interesting esolang at all, because it didn't have any interesting restrictions, it was just a thin layer of syntax obfuscation for ordinary programming languages.
21:05:42 <b_jonas> They pointed him at what they considered good examples of esolangs, like Intercal which doesn't allow ordinary arithmetic, or befunge which didn't allow ordinary control flow.
21:07:02 <b_jonas> Plus C fooled non-esolangers the same way, it got picked up by hackers like Ken Thompson, and the esolangers told him that the rule was that if the language is used in production then it's not an actual esolang.
21:07:49 <b_jonas> And with that excuse, they didn't allow him to create a page for C on the esolang wiki, and refused his membership application to the esolanger club, and didn't allow him into esolanger parties.
21:08:08 <b_jonas> But Dennis didn't despair, because he knew that his time would come soon and that he would have the last laugh.
21:08:43 <b_jonas> And indeed, more and more people were fooled by the apparent transparency of C. Hackers were using it to write real programs, because C allowed you to write code in what seems like clever ways.
21:09:27 <b_jonas> And the hackers wrote all the clever optimizations to save a few clock cycles or bytes of memory, while C allowed their program to be easier to port among different computers.
21:10:02 <b_jonas> But the hackers didn't like writing documentation, so when other hackers started using the same clever subroutines, they didn't notice that those optimizations came with boundary conditions that made the code fail in certain circumstances.
21:10:41 <b_jonas> And they used the clever subroutines, and found them to be working when they tried the code, but when the time came to run the code with untrusted input as an internet service, the security bugs came up.
21:11:40 <b_jonas> And by the time the hackers noticed that C encouraged those kids of clever tricks, it was too late, they were all ensnared by Dennis Ritchie's trap. They looked around and saw that all the network infrastructure and operating systems and basic tools have now been implemented in C,
21:11:55 <b_jonas> and riddled with obscure security bugs that are hard to debug.
21:12:36 <b_jonas> And that's not all. Eventually computers became cheap enough and got industry applications, so it was no longer only hackers who wrote code for them. Code monkeys started to write code by imitating what they saw in the hacker's programs.
21:13:31 <b_jonas> And since all the existing programs were written in C, that's what the code monkeys wrote too. And the code monkeys weren't writing clever optimizations, they wrote code by successive approximation with a hammer and always kept the first working version rather than trying to come up with clever tricks.
21:13:57 <b_jonas> But that didn't save their code either, for C was so cleverly designed, that even such straightforward programs will have bugs.
21:15:03 <b_jonas> The code monkeys liked how C came with useful library functions, such as strcat to concatenate strings, but their tiny little monkey brain couldn't understand that strings need to be stored somewhere in memory in a large enough array and that they mustn't use memory after its lifetime.
21:15:26 <b_jonas> So their code was full of buffer overflows and use after free and uninitialized pointers.
21:16:20 <b_jonas> And all the esolangers ended up in consultant jobs where they had to try to untangle the buggy programs that the code monkeys wrote, and teach them good programming practice, each of which was hopeless because the companies insisted on using C because it was the industry standard,
21:16:38 <b_jonas> all the while the esolangers couldn't even trust their own tools, because they too were written in C and had bugs.
21:17:21 <b_jonas> And when the day of judgement comes, Dennis Ritchie will arise from his grave and hold trial over all the esolangers who doubted his language and didn't allow him in esolanger circles,
21:19:17 <b_jonas> and they will be forced to recant their views in ironic ways. The esolangers who made esoteric languages with bounded tape size and bignum cells will now have to spend double exponential time in purgatory to cleanse their soul in a horribly slow [-] loop where they have to recant not only their own insulting statements towards Ritchie,
21:20:21 <b_jonas> but also all other possible insulting statements not longer than that. The people who invented two-dimensional esolangs will lose their sanity and will run around without end in a tight loop of four cells.
21:21:17 <b_jonas> And only the esolangers pure in heart will be spared, the likes of Arthur Whitney who helped Ritchie's scheme of getting esoteric languages into production.
21:21:44 <b_jonas> Do you suppose we could adopt this as an offical creation myth of esolangs?
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21:43:41 <HackEso> C is the language of��V�>WIד�.��Segmentation fault
21:52:54 <HackEso> Tanebventions include necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, metar, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, Italian, the grace period, the limerick, ruin, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths or tanebventions: foods. He never invents anything involving sex.
21:52:59 <HackEso> Culinary tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, weetoflakes, mushrooms, nutella, and cognac.
21:53:03 <HackEso> Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Klein bottles, string diagrams, linear logic, the reals, Lambek's lemma, Curry's paradox, Stone spaces, algebraic geometry, locales, and histograms.
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22:17:13 <kmc> T-18m https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojvu2u28CIY
22:20:54 <kmc> they're live now
22:26:05 <kmc> stream is crapping out :( :( :(
22:26:52 <kmc> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXMGu2d8c8g
22:28:02 <b_jonas> kmc: that says something about the Falcon heavy rocket
22:29:52 <b_jonas> but if the lander already crashed, how is it that they're launching the rockets only now? is Taneb's time machine involved?
22:30:05 <kmc> two space things are happening today
22:30:07 <b_jonas> I'm confused by all this space news
22:30:08 <kmc> they are not related
22:30:25 <kmc> but yeah I think time machines may be involved
22:30:39 <b_jonas> yes. one is the telescope that photographs a black hole, the other is the lander
22:30:54 <b_jonas> oh right! the black hole is the time machine
22:46:30 <kmc> they landed all 3 first stages :D
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22:51:38 <b_jonas> hmm, there are once again the same number of M:tG planeswalker cards for Jace and Chandra. Chandra was in the lead for a short while, which seemed really odd to me, but they rectified that in the latest expansion.
22:56:16 <b_jonas> they're even tied with Liliana and Ajani now. that's weird.
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23:22:25 <oerjan> <oren> RIP bereshit <-- i feel like making a bad joke about it having its own idea about where the border between space and moon was
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23:26:32 <oerjan> and then i should connect it to brexit, i guess.
23:26:58 <int-e> Hmm... cutting the engine in free fall?
23:27:29 <int-e> . o O ( Hrm. This program was clearly buggy. Why, then, did it produce correct results? Sigh. )
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23:28:53 <oerjan> int-e: two off-by-one bugs in opposite directions hth
23:29:56 <HackEso> off by two:An off by two error is what happens when you expect an off by one error but compensate in the wrong direction. \ off by two error:An off by two error is what happens when you expect an off by one error but compensate in the wrong direction. \ seventh day adventism:Seventh Day Adventism is an attempt to bugfix an off-by-one error in Anabaptism
23:30:12 <int-e> Nah, that's too simple. I'm computing https://oeis.org/A174094 and the maybe-not-but-why bug is in decomposing the enumeration into independent subproblems.
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23:39:16 <oerjan> <b_jonas> Do you suppose we could adopt this as an offical creation myth of esolangs? <-- no hth
23:40:02 <oerjan> i didn't read all of it, but enough to dislike it.
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00:15:22 <int-e> So it turns out to be not-a-bug, but a pretty subtle one. (You can call it a "clever optimization" instead... except I'm pretty sure I didn't justify it when I wrote the code.)
00:22:51 <shachaf> oerjan: did you baba yet twh
00:24:04 <int-e> . o O ( bug is you )
00:24:52 <shachaf> Did you solve that one level with the bugs blocking the exits and the belts?
00:24:58 <shachaf> And then that one other level.
00:25:13 <oerjan> int-e: i seem to have completely accidentally (except for ignoring *three* attempts by the server to reject my post) indirectly caused the yafgc comic author to go ballistic over a (nearly certain) troll. admittedly he was ripe for it...
00:25:31 <shachaf> I don't remember the details but I liked the second one.
00:25:35 <int-e> shachaf: I have 220 levels solved, but does that answer the question?
00:25:59 <shachaf> I already knew the answer because you have all the flowers.
00:26:27 <shachaf> I gotta get back to this game. I only have gjb beof.
00:27:01 <int-e> oh... that is tricky.
00:27:25 <int-e> (I don't know what I would have done without the aforementioned spoiler in the changelog.)
00:27:42 <int-e> But I don't have a flower for meta :/
00:28:03 <int-e> and I suspect that's my missing achievement.
00:28:40 <shachaf> Do you know what you're missing there?
00:29:23 <int-e> After digging into data files, I think there's one level that ought to be marked as finished but wasn't.
00:30:20 <shachaf> Hmm, I'm not sure which spoiler you're talking about.
00:31:30 <int-e> It was in the March 18th news.
00:34:14 <shachaf> I think I may have tried to do that thing in the past, in ???
00:34:24 <shachaf> But maybe it's a different thing.
00:34:39 <shachaf> I'll try it again next time I run it.
00:51:58 <int-e> shachaf: you're in the right place though.
00:53:08 <int-e> shachaf: V guvax vg qbrfa'g pbhag vs lbh pbyyrpg gurz fvzhygnarbhfyl, naq lbh znl fgvyy unir gb jva gur yriry nsgrejneqf. Ohg V'z abg fher jung gur cerpvfr pbaqvgvbaf ner.
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00:54:44 <shachaf> int-e: I was trying to figure out what was going on and I read one spoiler too many apparently. :-(
00:54:58 <shachaf> So I found the hidden level in Meta.
00:54:59 <int-e> Anyway. By now I've messed up my first savegame and I'm not inclined to start from scratch. And I don't know whether I'm missing a trick or whether I'm encountering a bug. The history of bugs in the game is not reassuring.
00:55:09 <shachaf> And the name of the level doesn't make me feel great, either.
00:55:15 <int-e> Oh is there a hidden level?
00:55:21 <int-e> Maybe I'm missing that...
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00:55:57 <shachaf> It's called "n cevmr jryy rnearq"
00:56:10 <shachaf> I don't think I would've thought to look there.
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00:58:51 <int-e> yeah I can confirm that I'm missing that one.
01:01:46 <int-e> Ooh. Yeah I don't think I would've found that one, ever. Now to get there...
01:04:02 <shachaf> Getting there is easy if you've won the level.
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01:13:38 <shachaf> Oh man, gur jngre pna nyfb or n yriry
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01:27:28 <int-e> shachaf: hmpf now I have sbhe obav.
01:28:08 <int-e> and still no flower for meta.
01:32:59 <int-e> apparently I'm missing 'nabgure jnl' as well.
01:57:21 <int-e> Okay. That did it. Final achievement achieved.
01:57:40 <int-e> So... I make it 222 levels.
01:59:02 <int-e> Time to delete this time sink. :/
02:00:01 <shachaf> I closed it but I think I'm at 212 or so.
02:00:20 <int-e> It may be 223 now because of a new level added in the latest update.
02:00:24 <shachaf> Are obav distinct from beof?
02:00:58 <shachaf> I know you can do beo vf obahf and also x is obahf for other xs, but it didn't seem to do much.
02:00:59 <int-e> No, I'm just using the adjective rather than the noun.
02:02:07 <int-e> Anyway, it's all gone, including the savegame so I won't be tempted to quickly reinstall and check stuff.
02:05:48 <int-e> So there are two hidden levels in meta, and I missed them both.
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02:12:58 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck extensions]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60983&oldid=56293 * Tastyfish * (+17) Add Brainfuck++ to Files
02:46:52 <esowiki> [[RarVM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60984&oldid=60979 * Void * (+105) /* Hierarchical resource models: intent vs transfer */
02:49:09 <kmc> I read "Brainfuck existentialism"
02:49:16 <kmc> sounds like my kind of party
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08:37:54 <rain1> bmk do you have a gopher?
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17:09:28 <b_jonas> [ 'oh hey, j-bot is on again!'
17:09:29 <j-bot> b_jonas: oh hey, j-bot is on again!
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17:48:01 <oren> Country roads, lets-a-goooo, its-a-meee, Marioooo! Mushroom Kingdom, Bowser Koopa! Let's-a-gooo, Mario!
17:50:30 <shachaf> The other day I needed a font and it seemed impossible to get a simple bitmap to fontificate from.
17:58:27 <oren> http://fontificate.samlecuyer.com/
17:58:47 <shachaf> Put some text on the screen.
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18:36:27 <kmc> good morning all <3
18:36:42 <kmc> I'm in a park trying to pick up amateur radio from the international space station
18:38:42 <kmc> so far no luck
18:46:08 <b_jonas> kmc: on which continent are you?
18:46:30 <b_jonas> also, what frequency of radio waves is this you're trying to pick up
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19:08:09 <kmc> b_jonas: north america. san francisco
19:09:00 <kmc> and it's on 145.800 MHz, 2m ham band. FM modulated SSTV tones
19:11:05 <b_jonas> it's still midday there, so that makes it worse
19:22:53 <b_jonas> or so I think, but you're the HAM guy
19:38:58 <kmc> while I wait I'm scanning some rail frequencies on my HT :)
19:39:03 <kmc> (HT = handheld ham radio)
19:39:14 <kmc> HAM is not an acronym :P
19:39:31 <kmc> and, I'm not sure how the day/night cycle affects VHF
19:39:35 <kmc> on HF it depends on the band
19:39:44 <kmc> 20m is better in the day, 40m is better at night
19:39:54 <kmc> that's because they mainly work by bouncing off the ionosphere
19:40:09 <kmc> VHF doesn't for the most part, although there are sporadic events where it does, and in that case you can get much longer range
19:40:29 <kmc> for the most part VHF is a local/regional thing, and depends on line of sight. that's why repeaters installed on mountain tops are so widely used on VHF
19:42:50 <b_jonas> huh what? isn't it waves much longer than that that bounce off the ionosphere?
19:45:17 <kmc> HF refers to 160m through 10m
19:45:21 <kmc> also known as "shortwave"
19:45:55 <kmc> for VHF it would depend on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sporadic_E_propagation
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19:46:55 <b_jonas> yeah, I just assumed every radiowave comms was easier during the night, but I see that's too much of a simplification
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00:55:07 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Lucas * New user account
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01:42:36 <esowiki> [[Teg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60985&oldid=60957 * A * (-101) Simplify Syntax
01:43:20 <esowiki> [[Teg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60986&oldid=60985 * A * (-5) /* 99 bottles of beer */
02:01:50 <zzo38> Now instead of POSTPIPE, I decided to put POSTQUIT. Still the purpose is what I mentioned before, which is for convenience of users who do not use specialized NNTP software.
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03:31:24 <zzo38> Now they added a "socketvfs" extension for SQLite. The socketvfs protocol is: When connected, server sends the file size as a big-endian 64-bit integer. Client requests data by sending two big-endian 64-bit integers being the offset and length, and then the server returns the data. You could use with stuff other than SQLite too, I suppose.
03:33:04 <kmc> what are the use cases?
03:33:24 <kmc> nice simple protocol.
03:35:16 <shachaf> "Nobody knows how much space should be reserved for name. So, calling openpty() or forkpty() with non-NULL name may not be secure."
03:35:38 <zzo38> As far as I can tell currently it is only used in a SQLite extension that is not included by default; I suppose it can be one way to log what parts of a file are accessed. There may be other use too.
03:35:42 <shachaf> it is not merely unknown, but unknowable
03:36:19 <shachaf> Why is anything ever big-endian nowadays? Isn't it just the worst of the endians?
03:36:25 <shachaf> Other than PDP-11-endian, of course.
03:38:48 <zzo38> shachaf: Perhaps use a #define command to define how much space is needed for the name, if your program cares about the name. Then determine what is needed on your computer before compiling it. But you can also try to write the program to avoid needing the name if it doesn't need it.
03:39:14 <shachaf> I think I'll just not ask for the name.
03:39:43 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, if possible, that is what you should do; don't ask for the name.
03:40:33 <zzo38> I don't know why it uses big-endian. I think small-endian is generally better; but, many things use big-endian too, and still you can work with small-endian and big-endian and PDP-endian, even if it is not the native endian of the system.
03:44:49 <shachaf> I want a C program that can both be run as a script (#!/bin/run-as-c or something) and compiled as C.
03:44:52 <zzo38> MMIX uses big-endian, Glulx uses big-endian, Z-machine code mostly uses big-endian (there is an option for small-endian in version 3 Z-code (ZIP), but this was never used and is rarely implemented), etc
03:45:17 <zzo38> shachaf: I think #! is not a valid command in C.
03:45:34 <zzo38> (I don't know if any C compiler will accept and ignore it as an extension, though.)
03:45:46 <shachaf> tcc will accept #!/usr/bin/tcc -run
03:46:24 <shachaf> Unfortunately it doesn't support many other things.
03:48:30 <zzo38> Tell the people who maintain GCC and clang to accept and ignore the first line with #! if GNU extensions are enabled (it could be implemented by the preprocessor replacing that line with a blank line if it comes first in the file). And then you can write your own program which is interpreting the C code and also does that if #! is on the first line.
03:51:07 <shachaf> But if I need to do that, then it sounds like the answer is that it's not possible.
03:51:48 <pikhq> Probably simpler to write a wrapper that would just compile on demand to a temp file and then execute it.
03:52:11 <zzo38> (You could also make the change to GCC by yourself, but then it won't work if distributed to someone who is not using your (unofficial) version of GCC, of course.)
03:54:38 <shachaf> pikhq: How does that solve the problem?
03:54:52 <pikhq> It doesn't, but I am tired enough to pretend it does.
03:55:40 <shachaf> I mean, I was planning to write a wrapper anyway. But half of the problem is that I want to be able to compile the file as regular C.
03:56:55 <zzo38> You can do if you require to type bash and the filename, so that bash will interpret it. (I do this with many of my own C programs.)
03:57:30 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60987&oldid=60950 * Lucas * (+315) Hello world! Lucas, cest moi.
03:59:30 <shachaf> I just want to be able to put it in my PATH or something.
04:00:48 * pikhq should probably sleep
04:16:20 <HackEso> This is something people on the channel like to talk about. We're often unsure what this is, though.
04:21:20 <zzo38> Do you like POSTQUIT command?
04:25:45 <user24> Here's a shitty map of the wiki: https://i.imgur.com/yWT0UCz.png
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04:59:54 * oerjan isn't clicking on that.
05:52:39 <shachaf> gdb is saying the current instruction is "mulss 0x3b4a(%rip),%xmm0"
05:53:09 <shachaf> p *(float *)(0x3b4a+$rip) prints a value which is probably nonsense but at least it's a value.
05:54:29 <shachaf> Oh, well, this compiler (tcc) doesn't support PIC at all.
05:54:51 <shachaf> I guess that explains this thing not working. But I still don't get what's going on with this specific instruction causing SEGV.
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06:18:46 <zzo38> You can use INCH $2,#FFF0 in MMIX to make half of a floating number that is known to be greater than 2^-1021. Similar thing may be possible with other instruction sets too.
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10:46:34 <fizzie> @tell shachaf It doesn't explain the SIGSEGV, but it's quite possible that 0x3b4a(%rip) and (0x3b4a+$rip) refer to different memory addresses.
10:46:37 <fizzie> @tell shachaf Because the instruction's rip-relative addressing mode is in terms of an offset from the *next* instruction, but gdb's $rip is probably the current instruction.
10:48:37 <shachaf> But I think it's pretty unlikely that was on a page boundary.
10:49:22 <int-e> doesn't dmesg contain the actual fault address for segfaults
10:51:29 <int-e> (oh and alignment is another venue to investigate...)
10:52:19 <int-e> okay, alignment is out :)
10:52:32 <shachaf> The actual address, given by gdb adding the offset from the right instruction, is 7ffff5388240
10:52:45 <shachaf> I mean, presumably this one is the non-actual address.
10:53:07 <shachaf> I don't see how one turns into the other.
10:53:18 <shachaf> The gdb disassembly even says: mulss 0x3b4a(%rip),%xmm0 # 0x7ffff5388240
10:54:19 <int-e> Hmm last 12 bits are the same... oh are you sure that what you're seeing is for the current layout, not from a previous run?
10:54:57 <shachaf> I'm breaking at the instruction before it and looking at the value.
10:55:03 <shachaf> Or, hmm, I guess that doesn't tell me anything about dmesg.
10:56:10 <shachaf> Yes, I guess that dmesg log was from another run.
10:56:20 <shachaf> I wouldn't have thought to look there. How does it decide which segfault to log?
10:56:51 <shachaf> Oh, it doesn't log it when it's in gdb.
10:57:26 <shachaf> So that's probably the right address.
10:58:10 <shachaf> segfault at 7f34ec91f240 ip 00007f34ec91b6ee sp 00007fff25491f30 error 4 in libredacted.so[7f34ec914000+9000]
10:58:31 <int-e> . o O ( nice library name )
10:59:02 <shachaf> Anyway there's no reason to expect this program to work since the compiler doesn't support PIC.
10:59:05 <int-e> what was the command for looking at memory maps? info memory?
10:59:09 <shachaf> But I'm confusil about the SEGV.
10:59:29 <shachaf> I looked cat /proc/pid/maps before. I think it looked OK?
10:59:47 <int-e> (/proc/<nnn>/maps is always an option, but it feels wrong when you're already in gdb :) )
11:00:23 <shachaf> I know, but figuring out how to make gdb do the thing I want feels wrong too.
11:01:02 <shachaf> The answer is "info proc mappings"
11:01:05 <int-e> info proc mappings <-- hmm. I thought there was something better
11:02:10 <shachaf> Anyway that address is in the .so mapping, as expected (?)
11:04:37 <shachaf> I never thought "given a specific instruction, in a debugger, figure out why it's causing a SEGV" is a hard problem.
11:05:30 <shachaf> Can it be some weird thing about addressing modes?
11:05:44 <shachaf> I bet it's something really obvious I'm missing.
11:06:45 <fizzie> I mean, sometimes it's about the instruction fetch itself, but that doesn't sound likely either.
11:07:07 <int-e> The error code would be different then.
11:08:29 <shachaf> Maybe another debugger can tell me more.
11:08:56 <shachaf> ...By default, because I'm sure gdb knows but I don't know how to ask it.
11:09:03 <shachaf> lldb: * thread #1, name = 'redacted', stop reason = signal SIGSEGV: address access protected (fault address: 0x7ffff5388240)
11:09:31 <shachaf> But p *(float *)0x7ffff5388240 prints 0.
11:10:27 <shachaf> To be clear, the value at that address should not be 0.
11:10:40 <shachaf> But I'm not expecting this to work. I just want to know what's going on!
11:11:53 <fizzie> I've had gdb confused about what mode (64-bit vs. compatibility mode) it's disassembling vs. running, but that shouldn't happen in the normal case.
11:12:21 <fizzie> (In any case presumably the "fault address" is coming from the system, not from trying to work it out from the instruction.)
11:16:35 <int-e> phew, https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/master/arch/x86/include/asm/traps.h#L167-L174 is harder to find than it should be.
11:17:40 <int-e> shachaf: anyway, your error code was 4, indicating an absent page for an ordinary user mode read.
11:18:20 <int-e> Yeah... that is the puzzle, isn't it.
11:19:36 <int-e> . o O ( Maybe you're in luck and it turns out to be a processor bug! ;-) )
11:21:27 <int-e> I don't know. These addresses look very plausible for rip-relative addressing, and I trust you've verified that 7f34ec91f240 is actually in the mapped range of libredacted.so.
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11:22:12 <shachaf> It's not redacted for any good reason, by the way.
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11:22:16 <int-e> Oh. I wonder how an execute-only map manifests.
11:22:36 <fizzie> int-e: I'd expect that to have the PROT bit set in the error code.
11:22:41 <int-e> Does that cause the PROT flag to be set or is that only for kernel mode pages?
11:23:56 <shachaf> 7ffff5386000-7ffff5585000 ---p 00009000 103:07 8931950
11:24:02 <shachaf> I was sure I checked for this before.
11:24:06 <shachaf> I must've looked at the wrong address.
11:27:15 <shachaf> int-e++ solves the mystery
11:28:17 <shachaf> I'm not sure why dlopen is mprotecting that to PROT_NONE but at least that's a run-of-the-mill thing I don't know.
11:28:17 <int-e> . o O ( comparisons are hard )
11:29:03 <shachaf> I think I expected p *(T *)addr to behave the same as examining the addr from the debugee, too.
11:29:15 <shachaf> Since you can have arbitrary expressions as arguments to p.
11:29:16 * int-e momentarily thought the address was out of range. But yeah, it wasn't.
11:29:51 <shachaf> (Whereas I'd expect x to just look at the memory regardless of protection.)
11:40:31 <int-e> shachaf: I guess the reason is that ptrace's PTRACE_PEEK_* operation have no way of signalling an error (since a memory location may well contain -1)
11:41:19 <int-e> That interface is pretty bad. :)
11:43:29 <shachaf> You mean the glibc wrapper around it is pretty bad?
11:43:57 <shachaf> The Linux system call returns the value in *data, and returns an error code as the return value.
11:44:50 <int-e> lots of room to shift the blame :)
11:44:58 <shachaf> Then libc wraps it with the ridiculous thing where you're supposed to write { errno = 0; value = ptrace(PTRACE_PEEKDATA, ...); if (errno != 0) ...; else ...; }
11:45:16 <shachaf> Oh, good point. I do like how portable my programs using ptrace are.
11:45:53 <int-e> Well, I do like the fact that gdb works.
11:46:10 <shachaf> It works because it's been ported to each system that it works on.
11:46:13 <int-e> But I get your point :)
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11:51:42 <shachaf> Isn't it great how the Linux ABI is way more stable than the libc ABI?
11:53:29 <shachaf> I'd much rather write programs to use the Linux ABI.
11:53:34 <shachaf> Unfortunately you have to use the other one.
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15:14:05 <esowiki> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60988&oldid=51892 * Rottytooth * (+17) added pronunciation
15:15:09 <esowiki> [[Evil]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60989&oldid=51712 * Lucas * (-11) Update creator link; uppercase and lowercase as compound words
15:41:04 <esowiki> [[Template:Lowercase]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60990&oldid=51763 * Lucas * (+149) Clarify usage and add examples
15:47:53 <esowiki> [[User:Lucas/common.css]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=60991 * Lucas * (+91) Use [[:Wikipedia:Meta:User:LLarson/global.css|my Wikimedia stylesheet]]
16:10:37 <int-e> oh wow... git version 1.8.3.1 ... that is quite outdated :)
16:12:34 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60992&oldid=60908 * Lucas * (+44) /* Partially Silly Ideas */ Link to [[Malbolge]] and [[Wikipedia:Lambert W function|Lambert function]]
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18:02:33 <b_jonas> shachaf: hehe. so the proper method is to call it with name set to nullptr, and then call ttyname on the slave to find out the name?
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18:41:01 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60993&oldid=60639 * Helen * (+291)
18:46:22 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60994&oldid=60313 * Helen * (+0) /* Implementation */ Added v4.12 jar
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19:03:08 <b_jonas> [ #'0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001'
19:15:00 <HackEso> Darth Plagueis? ¯\(°_o)/¯
19:15:14 <b_jonas> ``` for c in {0..9}; do \? $(starwars); done
19:15:20 <HackEso> the Sarlacc? ¯\(°_o)/¯ \ Moff Jerjerrod? ¯\(°_o)/¯ \ Lor San Tekka? ¯\(°_o)/¯ \ Jango Fett? ¯\(°_o)/¯ \ Count Dooku? ¯\(°_o)/¯ \ Bail Organa? ¯\(°_o)/¯ \ Beru Lars? ¯\(°_o)/¯ \ Qui-Gon Jinn? ¯\(°_o)/¯ \ Bail Organa? ¯\(°_o)/¯ \ Kylo Ren? ¯\(°_o)/¯
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21:01:09 <HackEso> alercäh rdocöc quintopïa Zarutiän jeffl3̈5 BlueProtomän fizzïe hppavilion[1̈] Phantom_Hoovër int-̈e b_jonäs boil̈y a`a`a`a`jo7äs a`a`a`a`jo8äs a`a`a`a`jo3äs a`a`a`a`jo6äs a`a`a`a`jo5äs a`a`a`a`jo4äs a`a`a`a`jo2äs a`a`a`a`jo1äs a`a`a`a`jonas̈0 a`a`a`̈a lambdaböt chicken_jonäs mynam̈e
21:01:10 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: mspalist: not found
21:01:20 <Sgeo_> What's the Homestuck list?
21:01:39 <HackEso> welcome \ welcome \ \ \ \ echo \ ! \ " \ # \ ' \ ( \ * \ ,1 \ ,2 \ 1 \ 13 \ 1492 \ 2 \ 2014 \ 2015 \ 2016 \ 2017 \ 3 \ 4 \ 5 \ 5quote \ 5w \ 8ball \ 8-ball \ 8ball \ <command> \ ? \ ?? \ ?h \ ?hh \ @ \ CaT \ CoInS \ Eternity \ FireFlist \ No \ ReLcOmE \ WELCOME \ WeLcOmE \ Welcome \ ^.^ \ ` \ `^ \ `` \ `̀ \ aaaaaaaaa \ acronym \ addquote \ addscowrevs \ addtodo \ age \ aglist \ airport \ airport-lookup \ allquotes \ a
21:02:35 <b_jonas> Sgeo_: I don't think there's one yet, but I'm not sure
21:02:45 <b_jonas> ``` set -e; cd bin; echo *list
21:02:45 <HackEso> FireFlist aglist bardsworthlist bobadventureslist calesyta2016list danddreclist don'taskdon'ttelllist dontaskdonttelllist ehlist emptylist erflist flist idealist ioccclist keenlist list listlist llist makelist makelistlist minimalist mlist olist pbflist slist smlist stylist testlist wrlist xkcdwhatiflist ysaclist
21:03:01 <shachaf> It used to be called `list.
21:03:14 <shachaf> I think I renamed it to slist.
21:03:21 <HackEso> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd nvd Fiora Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
21:05:30 <b_jonas> does anyone want a referral code on booking.com ?
21:06:50 <shachaf> I read books. Is that considered booking?
21:07:45 <b_jonas> shachaf: this one is for hotels and other shelter. English is confusing.
21:09:41 <shachaf> Sometimes I read books in hotels and other shelter.
21:19:44 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: lists: not found
21:19:53 <fungot> int-e: captain! our dreams are finally coming true! you were so busy with your own yet. look for a long time, i'm going! you came back. come in.
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21:34:20 <fizzie> Maybe I won't get stuck playing it a lot.
21:35:32 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7* fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
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21:51:52 <zzo38> I have seen a program for PC using HLT for timing. But, if you use that then in addition to the timer, it is also triggered by pushing keys, and by moving the mouse within the DOSBOX window.
21:52:49 <zzo38> Can the mouse interrupt be disabled so that it doesn't do that?
22:04:25 <fungot> Selected style: homestuck (Homestuck pages 1901-4673)
22:04:40 <Sgeo_> fungot, there is a Homestuck update for the first time in almost 3 years
22:04:40 <fungot> Sgeo_: it is a hate so pure and... pumpkin seeds? forget it. go me
22:10:21 <HackEso> Update notification for the webcomic Homestuck.
22:10:32 <b_jonas> so I just didn't see that because there were no updates?
22:11:18 <b_jonas> and it was called `list too? that makes the current `list even more tricky
22:11:53 <HackEso> 1466:2013-01-12 <Sgëo> echo "echo Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora" > bin/list \ 1467:2013-01-12 <Sgëo> chmod a+x bin/list \ 1470:2013-01-12 <Sgëo> echo shachaf >> bin/list \ 1471:2013-01-12 <shachäf> sed -i s/shachaf// bin/list \ 1472:2013-01-12 <ellioẗt> sed -i \'s/Fiora/Fiora shachaf/\' bin/list # fixed \ 1473:2013-01-12 <shachäf> sed -i s/shachaf// bin/list \ 1474:2013-01-12 <ellioẗt> revert \ 1475:2013-01-12 <shachäf> sed -i s/shachaf// bin/li
22:12:51 <Sgeo_> b_jonas, there is an update
22:12:54 <HackEso> 2/18:n/list \ 1487:2013-01-12 <nortẗi> sed -i \'1s/$/shachaf nortti/\' bin/list \ 1488:2013-01-12 <shachäf> rm bin/list \ 1498:2013-01-12 <nortẗi> echo \'echo Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti\' > bin/list \ 1499:2013-01-12 <Bik̈e> echo " elliot" >> bin/list \ 1500:2013-01-12 <nortẗi> sed -i \'2d;1s/$/ elliott/\' bin/list \ 1501:2013-01-12 <ellioẗt> revert \ 1502:2013-01-12 <nortẗi> sed -i 2d bin/list \ 1503:2013-01-12 <Bik̈e> echo \'echo Taneb
22:13:01 <shachaf> What a good joke, adding me repeatedly to a list I don't want to be on.
22:13:07 <shachaf> Top tier humor from the past.
22:13:25 <esowiki> [[User:Lucas/common.js]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=60995 * Lucas * (+102) Using [[MetaWikipedia:User:LLarson/global.js|my Wikimedia scriptrepository]]
22:13:34 <Sgeo_> I... don't recall using those dot things in my name
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22:14:52 <Sgeo_> Ok, I'll assume something's buggy. In the script or in the logs?
22:16:10 <shachaf> Probably in the log script.
22:17:58 <fizzie> If by "dot things" you mean the diacritics, that's just an anti-ping defense.
22:19:52 <fizzie> (It's part of bin/hlnp, presumably for "no ping".)
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23:15:36 <zzo38> Do you like the new NNTP software that I am writing?
23:21:30 <HackEso> scowrevs="$(/usr/bin/paste -sd'|' /hackenv/share/scowrevs)"; hg log -r "tip:0 & ! ($scowrevs)" "$@" | sed 's/\(\(^\| \)[<Itb][^ ]*\)\([^ ][^ ]\)/\1̈\3/'
23:25:22 <oerjan> `learn hlnp is a modification of "hg log" that ignores mass revert revisions and doesn't ping the original committers. Used for implementing other repository log search commands like `doag and `culprits .
23:25:23 <HackEso> Learned 'hlnp': hlnp is a modification of "hg log" that ignores mass revert revisions and doesn't ping the original committers. Used for implementing other repository log search commands like `doag and `culprits .
23:26:45 <shachaf> Are all the scowrevs mass revert revisions?
23:26:49 <oerjan> `slwd hlnp//s/modification/wrapper/
23:26:51 <HackEso> hlnp//hlnp is a wrapper of "hg log" that ignores mass revert revisions and doesn't ping the original committers. Used for implementing other repository log search commands like `doag and `culprits .
23:27:14 <oerjan> shachaf: probably not, but those are the most noisy ones
23:27:50 <HackEso> hlnp//hlnp is a wrapper of "hg log" that ignores mass revert revisions and doesn't ping the original committers. Used for implementing other repository log search commands like `doag and `culprits .
23:29:10 <oerjan> `slwd hlnp//s,mass,known &,
23:29:12 <HackEso> hlnp//hlnp is a wrapper of "hg log" that ignores known mass revert revisions and doesn't ping the original committers. Used for implementing other repository log search commands like `doag and `culprits .
23:31:03 <zzo38> Hopefully by 2070 there will not be any more not-Y2K-compliant NNTP clients in use
23:33:22 <oerjan> hm i suddenly envision internet archeologists having to run things in a vm with fake time settings in order not to trigger such bugs in ancient programs that have long since seized maintenance
23:35:08 <zzo38> Hopefully if source code is available, the program can be corrected if needed
23:35:28 <oerjan> even the programming language may no longer be something people know
23:37:12 <zzo38> Yes, unless someone tries to reimplement it. Sometimes people try that now, so maybe in future they might also do, but still using fake time settings may be easier and faster to do than reimplementing the programming language.
23:52:57 <fizzie> `` while read r; do hg log -T '{desc}\n' -r "$r"; done < share/scowrevs | paste
23:53:03 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/tmp/paste/paste.22260
23:58:37 <shachaf> Some of those revs seem awfully specific.
00:02:56 <fizzie> That's true. They're all pretty scow, but very specific. I don't guarantee what I did above did the right thing, though.
00:05:05 <fizzie> Also, sometimes you can kind of tell those Pokémon Go POIs have been crowdsourced: https://zem.fi/tmp/pgo.png
00:05:52 <oerjan> there are some cases where there are several scow revs in a row, so it makes sense to include all in a range even if some of them are specific (say if someone has been doing several bad commands in a row)
00:06:46 <oerjan> i think you'd need the revision numbers to see if that is the case.
00:08:00 <fizzie> `` while read r; do echo scow $r:; hg log -T '{rev} {desc}\n' -r "$r"; done < share/scowrevs | paste
00:08:13 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/tmp/paste/paste.4591
00:11:14 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/file/tip/share/scowrevs
00:12:21 <oerjan> oh it is that short now. i recall it was way longer before we found out we could use ranges.
00:15:35 <oerjan> 3341 looks suspicious - it was never properly reverted, although shouldn't have much of an effect...
00:18:33 <HackEso> Indexed monads are just monads on an indexed category. \ Indexed monads are just categories enriched over the monoidal category of endofunctors.
00:19:18 <HackEso> 3151:2013-06-18 <shachäf> sed -i \'2s/$/./\' wisdom/indexed\\ monad \ 3150:2013-06-17 <shachäf> echo \'Indexed monads are just monads on an indexed category\' >> wisdom/\'indexed monad\' \ 3149:2013-06-17 <shachäf> mv \'indexed monad\' wisdom/
00:19:59 <oerjan> someone looking at that `dowg won't know why the lines were swapped :P
00:20:29 <HackEso> 10976:2017-05-31 <oerjän> slwd cello//s,$,\x0f, \ 10798:2017-04-22 <oerjän> slwd cello//s,stu,stru, \ 3511:2013-08-28 <oerjän> tail -1 wisdom/cello > q; mv q wisdom/cello \ 2879:2013-05-07 <Jafët> echo \'The high level stucture of Cello projects is inspired by /Haskell/, while the syntax and semantics are inspired by /Python/ and /Obj-C/.\' | rainwords > wisdom/cello
00:20:53 <oerjan> i fixed that one in 3511
00:21:20 <HackEso> 3624:2013-09-03 <oerjän> rm wisdom/doodads \ 2418:2013-03-12 <ellioẗt> revert 2416 \ 2417:2013-03-12 <Sgëo> revert 2243 \ 2276:2013-02-27 <Gregör> ln -s doodad wisdom/doodads
00:23:59 <HackEso> 5694:2015-06-24 <shachäf> ` sed -i \'s/ / /\' wisdom/gazpacho # hth \ 1715:2013-01-24 <Gregör> revert 1713 \ 1714:2013-01-24 <oerjän> cd wisdom; mv ngevd ..; sed -i \'s/dahl/dal/g\' * ; mv ../ngevd . \ 1706:2013-01-24 <Jafët> rm wisdom/gazpacho && ln -s gaspacho wisdom/gazpacho \ 667:2012-08-21 <oerjän> run echo "You like Gazpacho and I like Gaspacho. Let's call the whole thing off!" >wisdom/gazpacho
00:24:29 <oerjan> `` hg cat -r 5693 wisdom/gazpacho
00:24:30 <HackEso> You like Gazpacho and I like Gaspacho. Let's call the whole thing off!
00:25:15 <oerjan> oh wait what happened with those were that they were symbolic links
00:26:31 <HackEso> You like Gazpacho and I like Gaspacho. Let's call the whole thing off!
00:26:35 <HackEso> You like Gaspacho and I like Gazpacho. Let's call the whole thing off!
00:26:45 <oerjan> they're no longer equal anyway
00:27:13 <HackEso> 9964:2016-12-15 <oerjän> slwd piet//s/..$/\x0f./ \ 9963:2016-12-15 <oerjän> slwd piet//s/$/\x0f/ \ 9957:2016-12-12 <shachäf> slwd piet//s#or#our# \ 5590:2015-06-16 <shachäf> ` tail -n1 wisdom/piet > /tmp/$$; mv /tmp/$$ wisdom/piet \ 2965:2013-05-28 <oerjän> echo "Piet is a really colorful programming language." | rainwords > wisdom/piet \ 2964:2013-05-28 <oerjän> echo "Piet is a really colorful programming language." | colorize > wisdom/piet
00:27:37 <oerjan> 5590 shachaf fixed that one
00:29:09 <oerjan> `sled share/scowrevs//s,3341,3342,
00:29:11 <HackEso> share/scowrevs//121:122 \ 194:196 \ 770:771 \ 1000:1001 \ 1493:1497 \ 2112:2114 \ 3342:3343 \ 4530:4531 \ 5136:5137 \ 5642:5643 \ 5894:5897 \ 8669:8678 \ 9070:9071 \ 9074:9075
00:29:44 <oerjan> this is how we got two different lystrosaur* entries too
00:30:21 <oerjan> `` \? lystrosaur; \? lystrosaurus
00:30:23 <HackEso> The lystrosaurs were an ancient genus of evil reptiles who successfully took over the world in the early Triassic. \ Lystrosaurus is a genus of Late Permian and Early Triassic Period dicynodont therapsids, which ruled the world around 250 million years ago.
00:33:10 <HackEso> quoteformat is: <nick> message; * nick action; two spaces between messages; all elisions marked with [...] other than irrelevant intervening messages; for messages separated by elision, one space on each side, not two.
00:33:28 <oerjan> ok two of them were later deleted and the last one changed
00:36:45 <shachaf> oerjan: What's that tail business about?
00:37:21 <shachaf> I don't know what's going on there.
00:40:50 <oerjan> shachaf: rev 3341 swapped the lines in all wisdoms, which did very little for most of them, except accidentally turning some symlinks into files. the tail business fixed some of the remaining swaps.
00:41:48 <oerjan> 8669-8678 looks like me enforcing some spacing rules on wisdom, and then changing my mind...
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00:43:04 <oerjan> `` hg cat -r 5589 wisdom/piet
00:43:05 <HackEso> \ Piet is a really colorful programming language.
00:44:38 <oerjan> oh well the rest looks reasonable.
00:48:28 <b_jonas> yeah, I have some edits too when I added newlines to various wisdoms
00:48:42 <b_jonas> mostly to ones that I created
00:48:51 <HackEso> unless essential for the entry‘s humor, they should: be understandable without the lookup key, be single spaced and end in a newline with no space before that, and use proper capitalization and punctuation
00:48:52 <zzo38> Godel,Escher,Bach defines consistency of a system together with interpretation on page 94, that all theorems when interpreted are true statements. But on page 223 it says it is consistent if it does not have both x and ~x being theorems. OK, although that is the consistency of the system and interpretation together. I wanted to consider consistency of only the system itself, as the existence of well-formed nontheorems.
00:49:56 <zzo38> (A system that does not have any well-formed strings is therefore inconsistent according to my definition.) What do you think?
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02:17:14 <Cale> zzo38: Note that consistency is something which doesn't care about interpretation
02:18:21 <Cale> zzo38: Whether any given sentence is a theorem is a property of the rules of the system itself
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02:24:05 <oerjan> the wikipedia article on consistency briefly mentions that this is called "absolute consistency" or "Post consistency" (most of it only seems to consider classical logic, though.)
02:27:03 <Cale> I was confused. "as the existence of well-formed nontheorems" -> "as well as the existence of well-formed nontheorems"
02:36:10 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60996&oldid=60994 * A * (+167) Put my ideas (no pseoudcode yet)
02:37:49 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60997&oldid=60993 * A * (+154) Reply
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02:40:27 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60998&oldid=60996 * A * (+160) /* Subtracting a number */
02:44:21 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60999&oldid=60998 * A * (-3) Fix style (I did it in a hurry)
02:45:46 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61000&oldid=60997 * A * (-445) Blanked the page
02:46:33 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61001&oldid=60999 * A * (+0) /* Subtracting a number */
02:51:40 <esowiki> [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61002&oldid=60695 * A * (+681)
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02:56:09 <zzo38> Yes, my definition is "absolute consistency" or "Post consistency". I looked it up in Wikipedia now. (Simple consistency seems to be what they said about x and ~x are not both theorems, but that is only applicable to systems that have a negation operator, so it is not independent.)
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03:40:45 <zzo38> Is there any program like Heirloom-mailx but for netnews?
04:02:47 <oerjan> zzo38: linear logic has a negation operator, but i still think it doesn't satisfy x, ~x |- a or perhaps even !x, !(~x) |- a
04:03:34 <oerjan> it splits the false used for ~x = x -o _|_ from the false that implies everything 0 |- a
04:27:41 <zzo38> Yes, I know about linear logic, so OK.
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06:15:45 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61003&oldid=60491 * A * (-13) /* List of candidates */
06:19:34 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61004&oldid=61003 * A * (+2) /* List of candidates */
06:24:22 <zzo38> Why GCC doesn't seems to optimize x+strlen(x) so well?
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07:20:46 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61005&oldid=61001 * A * (+19) Specify
07:35:03 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61006&oldid=61005 * A * (+37) /* Subtracting a number */
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08:30:53 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61007&oldid=61006 * A * (+163) Add current version
08:35:29 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61008&oldid=61007 * A * (-38) Too space-filling
08:39:28 <esowiki> [[Popular problem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61009&oldid=57010 * A * (+131)
08:47:39 <esowiki> [[Popular problem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61010&oldid=61009 * A * (+31)
08:48:51 <esowiki> [[Infinite loop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61011&oldid=57341 * A * (-94)
08:50:00 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61012&oldid=61008 * A * (+73) Infinite loop implementation
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10:13:28 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61013&oldid=61000 * A * (+541) Undo revision 61000 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]])
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10:28:04 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61014&oldid=61013 * A * (-541) Blanked the page
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12:02:56 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61015&oldid=61012 * A * (-109) /* Continuation on the above by User:Helen (Implementing arithematic operations) */
12:05:35 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61016&oldid=61015 * A * (-4)
12:13:23 <esowiki> [[Hash function]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61017&oldid=57299 * A * (+638) Not sufficient description.
12:17:38 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61018&oldid=61016 * A * (-22) No longer "limited to integers."
12:23:58 <esowiki> [[Glass]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61019&oldid=55849 * A * (-123) /* Hello, world! program */
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13:59:50 <esowiki> [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61020&oldid=61002 * A * (+409)
13:59:58 <esowiki> [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61021&oldid=61020 * A * (+0)
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14:00:39 <esowiki> [[Esoteric programming language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61022&oldid=59383 * A * (-168) /* Purpose */
14:01:48 <esowiki> [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61023&oldid=61021 * A * (-30)
14:33:34 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61024&oldid=61018 * A * (+80) /* Cat program */
14:36:42 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61025&oldid=61004 * A * (-10) No suggestion except for mine included the creator, so I will delete the creator.
14:39:32 <esowiki> [[APLWSI]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61026&oldid=58991 * A * (+79) Not the smallest valid program in *any* programming language.
14:40:31 <esowiki> [[APLWSI]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61027&oldid=61026 * A * (+0) /* Interpreter */
14:42:20 <esowiki> [[APLWSI]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61028&oldid=61027 * A * (-79)
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14:58:10 <esowiki> [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61029&oldid=61023 * A * (-29) /* Trivial Turing-completeness proof of the COMMAND.COM prompt */
15:00:15 <esowiki> [[MiniMAX Turing-completeness proof]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61030&oldid=37897 * A * (+0) Smallfuck does not have the @ command. Modify the compilation.
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15:16:31 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61031&oldid=61014 * Helen * (+674)
15:18:38 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61032&oldid=61024 * Helen * (+3041) Correctly added v4.12 details and implementation (messed up first time)
15:21:02 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61033&oldid=61032 * Helen * (-2918) /* Implementation */ Corrected implementation again and put correct line count
15:27:06 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61034&oldid=61033 * Helen * (-8) Added filetype information
15:39:55 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61035&oldid=61034 * Helen * (-276) /* Cat program */ The character and debug flags are not recognised on the wiki since they are not part of the specification of bitch but rather an extra in my implementation specifically
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15:40:59 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61036&oldid=61035 * Helen * (+125) /* Possible with adjustments */
15:42:07 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61037&oldid=61036 * Helen * (+22) /* Impossible */
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16:03:33 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61038 * Helen * (+5789) Moved proof attempt to talk page
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16:06:48 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61039&oldid=61038 * Helen * (+258) /* Attempts at proving Turing-completeness */
16:07:41 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61040&oldid=61037 * Helen * (-5422) /* Turing-completeness */
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17:09:33 <esowiki> [[MiniMAX Turing-completeness proof]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61041&oldid=61030 * Ais523 * (+146) clarify
17:21:31 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61042&oldid=61039 * Helen * (+3414) /* User:Helen - Proving required operations */
17:28:33 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61043&oldid=61040 * Helen * (+4) Changed computational class to reflect current unknown status
17:34:30 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61044&oldid=61042 * Helen * (+123)
17:35:49 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61045&oldid=61044 * Helen * (+6) Previous edit added a description to the talk page
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17:45:10 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61046&oldid=61045 * Helen * (+180) Started on a new proof attempt
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20:45:58 <zzo38> Now I believe I implemented all of the NNTP stuff except posting articles. That is a bit more difficult because it has to parse the headers to figure out what to do with it.
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20:52:29 <int-e> . o O ( I have this feeling that zzo38 is connecting through a time machine, from 20 years ago. )
20:53:02 <zzo38> int-e: I think that is difficult.
20:55:14 <int-e> Nah, it's very easy to imagine that. Trust me on that :)
20:56:34 <zzo38> To imagine, yes, but I mean it is difficult to connect through a time machine, from twenty years ago, especially if I will still reply to your message too.
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21:03:21 <b_jonas> maybe I'm connecting through a time machine too, but only from ten years ago or so
21:04:46 <zzo38> (I am also referring to RFC 3977 in order to implement this program, and it isn't twenty years old.)
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21:09:08 <zzo38> (And it is using SQLite, which isn't twenty years old, either.)
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22:37:17 <fizzie> `` wn fruit -treen | tr ',' '\n' | sed -e 's|^ *\(=> \)\?||;/^$/d' | sort | uniq | while read f; do if [[ -e "wisdom/$f" ]]; then echo $f; fi; done
22:37:18 <HackEso> ananas \ apple \ banana \ coffee \ lemon \ melon \ pineapple
22:38:32 <zzo38> Is there going to be version 7 of Internet?
22:39:31 <fizzie> There definitely won't be a version 7 of the IP protocol, because that number is taken.
22:39:34 <fizzie> https://www.iana.org/assignments/version-numbers/version-numbers.xhtml
22:41:54 <fizzie> (RFC6814 is quoted for version 7 because it obsoletes RFC1475, which defined it.)
22:43:18 <zzo38> O, that is also why there is no version 5, I suppose. So the next one would be version 10 (if it is ever made), I suppose?
22:43:55 <zzo38> (Once they reach 14 then maybe they have to add sub-version field, in case of any more versions after that)
22:47:39 <fizzie> 10 might be logical, if they feel the need to keep the initial 4-bit header field at all. I don't think it's very common to have packets where you know they're IP but don't know which version.
22:49:18 <fizzie> (For example, if they're Ethernet frames, the two-byte EtherType field is 0800h for IPv4 and 86DDh for IPv6.)
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23:07:48 <fizzie> (I was thinking IP-over-ATM-AAL5 might have been using the version field for IPv6, but RFC2492 suggests LLC/SNAP framing is used, which again has a two-byte type field.)
23:08:22 <b_jonas> how about token ring in coax cable?
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23:11:50 <HackEso> Sequence 'wow\xc7\x83' is not valid in charset 'ANSI_X3.4-1968'.
23:11:59 <oren> `unidecode wowǃ
23:12:00 <HackEso> [U+0077 LATIN SMALL LETTER W] [U+006F LATIN SMALL LETTER O] [U+0077 LATIN SMALL LETTER W] [U+01C3 LATIN LETTER RETROFLEX CLICK]
23:14:19 <zzo38> 0=Beginning of header line, 1=Header name, 2=Just read the colon of a header line, 3=Header value, 4=Line break after a header, 5=Beginning of body line, 6=Inside body line, 7=Just read a dot at beginning of body line, 8=Beginning of bad line, 9=Just read a dot at beginning of bad line, 10=Inside bad line. Do you think this can work for parsing a NNTP article while reading it?
23:15:17 <zzo38> (If I missed something, or if you think one thing I put is not needed, you can mention that please.)
23:16:10 <b_jonas> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Hash_function huh
23:16:19 <kmc> what is the physical layer for token ring over coax like?
23:16:28 <kmc> I have read about ethernet thicknet... man that stuff sounds inconvenient
23:16:39 <kmc> vampire taps!
23:21:40 <fizzie> I don't know about token ring on coax, but based on some random web-reading it looks like normally IPv4 would use 802.2 LLC/SNAP framing on all 802.2 networks, both standard token ring and "token bus".
23:23:57 <int-e> I remember thin ethernet. I don't want to imagine the thick kind :)
23:24:08 <fizzie> I remember thin as well.
23:24:45 <int-e> (No vampire taps though. Just T-connectors and terminators.)
23:25:17 <fizzie> The high school computer class was one loop of 10BASE2 with the cables crossing the corridors on the floor.
23:25:25 <fizzie> It wasn't super reliable, to be honest.
23:26:07 <fizzie> I mean, not just loose on the floor, they did have some sort of on-the-floor duct thing. But still.
23:26:40 <int-e> but since somebody mentioned token ring networks: https://dilbert.com/strip/1996-05-02
23:27:37 <fizzie> I think "the token fell out" is also in one of those excuse generators.
23:28:51 <b_jonas> wait, is the Dilbert comic really that old, or is it just backdated?
23:29:39 <b_jonas> oh rightm is it older than UserFriendly?
23:30:30 <int-e> Almost certainly. And it was a "real" comic, not just an online one.
23:31:20 <int-e> April 1989 is the oldest one, apparently.
23:31:28 <int-e> https://dilbert.com/strip/1989-04-16 to be precise
23:31:52 <int-e> I would be surprised if it was online at the time... though a BBS would be possible I suppose :)
23:32:59 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61047&oldid=61025 * Oerjan * (+66) Undo removal of author and add it to the rest - nearly all featured languages have included it.
23:33:18 <int-e> Hmm, the early Dilberts are much better drawn than early Garfield strips.
23:35:09 <esowiki> [[Infinite loop]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61048&oldid=61011 * Oerjan * (+6) bold title
23:36:19 <int-e> to boldly go where no man has ventured before...
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23:50:30 <esowiki> [[RarVM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61049&oldid=60984 * Void * (-65) /* See also */
23:54:55 * oerjan notes A is reverting some of eir old more dubious edits...
23:59:48 <esowiki> [[Hash function]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61050&oldid=61017 * Fizzie * (+34) /* C example */ Let's at least have the function depend on the contents of the string, not just the length...
00:00:08 <fizzie> I don't think the whole article is really useful, but I couldn't leave it like that.
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00:04:12 <int-e> ah, how to make a hash out of a hash function?
00:04:27 <fizzie> The "process" side is worse, but I don't think we really need an article on hash functions, unless there's an actual esolang angle to them.
00:06:10 <int-e> fizzie: this may well have been a joke... the function was constant before. :P
00:06:57 <fizzie> int-e: Unless I missed something, it did still depend on the length of the input.
00:07:23 <fizzie> I don't think it was a joke, though.
00:07:38 <int-e> regardless, I agree with the sentiment that it has no esoteric contents anyway.
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00:28:17 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61051&oldid=60976 * Void * (+13) /* E */
00:34:02 <esowiki> [[Entish]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61052 * Void * (+2338) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=Entish |paradigms=imperative |author=[[void4]] |year=[[:Category:2019|2019]] |memsys=stack-based |dimensions=tree-based |class=:Category:Turing comp..."
00:38:50 <esowiki> [[Entish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61053&oldid=61052 * Void * (-118)
00:48:16 <esowiki> [[RarVM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61054&oldid=61049 * Void * (+1)
00:49:36 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61055&oldid=61031 * Helen * (+195)
00:50:24 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61056&oldid=61046 * Helen * (+891) /* Incrementing */ In progress
01:00:03 <zzo38> Do you like Magic: the Puzzling? I am looking at a recent one just now and I believe I have figured how to do it.
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01:05:18 <esowiki> [[RarVM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61057&oldid=61054 * Void * (+310) /* Language overview */
01:11:33 <esowiki> [[User:Void]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61058 * Void * (+43) Created page with "When life gives you lemons, create esolangs"
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01:13:41 <user24> An esolang whose syntax is *dancing*
01:15:38 <user24> how would you dance your language?
01:20:29 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61059&oldid=60992 * Void * (+39) /* Joke/Silly Ideas */
01:20:31 <HackEso> brexit:brexit is a command to forcefully exit, releasing 1GB of free space. This command was recently discovered to have a bug where it will repeatedly delay itself if not enough force is available. \ hfs:You have discovered an eerie cavern. The air above the dark stone floor is alive with vortices of purple light and dark, boiling clouds. Seemingly bottomless pits mark the surface. \ learning:Learning is disco, baby. \ lem:Stanisław Lem was a Polish
01:20:56 <HackEso> fish:Come and dance and love the fish! Mister Disco summoned it.
01:29:32 <user24> If you'd add some way to output tones, what kind of music would your esolang be most suited to?
01:42:55 <zzo38> I thought of a idea of a Magic: the Gathering card with "enchant object that is not in a hidden zone" (and also flash).
01:43:36 <zzo38> user24: If you mean with dancing, I suppose, it depend what kind of dancing. There is different kind of music for different kind of dancing, I think.
01:47:23 <user24> zzo38: if you ignore the music part and only focus on movement it might be easier
01:48:12 <zzo38> Although, there is esolangs with musical syntax as well, but depending how the one with dancing is, you have to see if it is suitable or not. (I don't know much about dancing, though.)
02:20:39 <esowiki> [[RarVM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61060&oldid=61057 * Void * (+40)
02:28:22 <user24> Only 50k instructions per second, ouch
02:29:08 <user24> How do you write fast VMs?
02:29:27 <zzo38> Depends on the VM, and on the host, I think.
02:30:12 <user24> I've tried RPython, because in theory, it generates a JIT for you. But in practice, it sucks to program with implicit types
02:31:00 <user24> You can't really say: "I want a 64 bit uint right here", you never know
02:31:49 <zzo38> I have partially written a Z-machine implementation for Famicom, for example, and it does a lot of stuff to improve speed.
02:33:45 <user24> did you add some sort of tracing?
02:34:53 <user24> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tracing_just-in-time_compilation
02:36:02 <zzo38> It does not do any kind of JIT, actually.
02:37:31 <user24> maybe the loop is not too complex, so the compiler optimizes it well
02:37:55 <zzo38> Since I have not finished writing it (I abandoned it for now, since on this computer I no longer have the stuff needed for testing), I don't know, but by counting the cycles and comparing, it seems like it would likely be faster than other implementations running on similar computers.
02:38:06 <zzo38> It is written in assembly language, so it isn't optimized by a compiler.
02:38:32 <zzo38> Do you know any Famicom programming?
02:42:56 <zzo38> It is the NMOS 6502 instruction set. There is the memory mapping, and then the hardware; I have also designed the cartridge hardware (although haven't actually built it, but I expect it would work), which isn't that complicated but does a few things which are very uncommon in Famicom cartridges (it maps mapper registers over RAM mirrors, it uses a bank size of one byte, and it doesn't care whether the signal is a read or a write).
02:43:16 <zzo38> Do you know Z-machine programming?
02:45:18 <zzo38> Here is the document of Z-machine: http://zzo38computer.org/backup/zspec/zip_old.txt I have been unable to get it to render properly on my computer (I am probably doing something wrong), but even the source text is readable enough.
02:45:19 <user24> i just enabled the Rust optimizer
02:45:53 <zzo38> (I also implemented Z-machine in C, in JavaScript, and in Glulx. Note, Glulx is another VM for text adventure games like Z-machine is.)
02:50:19 <user24> other than a short encounter with Twine, i have not seen much interactive fiction before
02:50:23 <user24> Rust optimizer results: Lvl 0: ~50k IPS, 1: 160k IPS, 2: 800k IPS, 3: 1M IPS!
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03:00:08 <user24> https://esolangs.org/wiki/RarVM
03:15:19 <esowiki> [[RarVM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61061&oldid=61060 * Void * (+62) /* Implementations */
03:49:53 <oerjan> i assume those are sam's favorite mushrooms
03:54:55 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Void * uploaded "[[File:Snapshot.png]]"
04:00:36 <esowiki> [[RarVM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61063&oldid=61061 * Void * (+357) /* Examples/Use cases */
04:24:37 <user24> http://venge.net/graydon/talks/CompilerTalk-2019.pdf
04:28:10 <oren> `unidecode ÐĐƉ
04:28:12 <HackEso> [U+00D0 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER ETH] [U+0110 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER D WITH STROKE] [U+0189 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER AFRICAN D]
04:28:31 <oren> unicode can go fuck themselves with an african D
04:28:48 <oren> I hate these letters so much
04:29:28 <zzo38> At least in the font I am using the appearance are all same, it look like.
04:29:34 <user24> http://hopl.info/polykey.html
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04:32:12 <oren> there shoudln't be two letters that look exactly the same in the same damn script
04:33:03 <zzo38> Yes, I think you are correct
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05:41:28 <zzo38> I do not understand that classification of programming languages very well.
05:41:43 <zzo38> Better explanations would help.
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06:33:18 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61064&oldid=61047 * A * (+11) /* List of candidates */
06:35:36 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61065&oldid=61043 * A * (-29) Change to unknown computational class
06:47:41 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61066&oldid=61065 * A * (-375) /* Common Algorithms */
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08:14:54 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61067&oldid=61056 * A * (+228) /* Attempt by User:Helen */
08:21:52 <esowiki> [[Z3]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61068 * A * (+745) Created page with "The [[Z3]] is a German computer created by [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konrad_Zuse Konrad Zuse]. Despite its extreme simplicity(the computer simulated only addition, subtra..."
08:22:50 <esowiki> [[Z3]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61069&oldid=61068 * A * (+69)
08:24:08 <esowiki> [[Z3]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61070&oldid=61069 * A * (+141)
08:25:00 <esowiki> [[Z3]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61071&oldid=61070 * A * (+62)
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08:32:20 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61072&oldid=61067 * A * (+439) It is possible that bitch compiles to a Minsky machine.
08:32:57 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61073&oldid=61072 * A * (-4) Oh no, I made it super messy.
08:37:48 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61074&oldid=61064 * A * (-12) Very close
08:40:10 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61075&oldid=61073 * A * (-2393) Shorten the page
08:44:01 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61076&oldid=61075 * A * (+2393) Reading this page without the "tape" edit seems awkward.
08:44:49 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61077&oldid=61076 * A * (+2) /* User:A - Implementing a tape */
08:45:08 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61078&oldid=61077 * A * (-43) /* User:A - Wrong idea of a tape */
08:47:17 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61079&oldid=61074 * A * (+50) /* List of candidates */
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11:06:08 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61080&oldid=61078 * A * (+171) Provide more information for the readers.
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11:08:43 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61081&oldid=61080 * A * (+307) I'm pretty positive that this will fail.
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11:45:16 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61082&oldid=61055 * A * (-250)
11:45:35 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61083&oldid=61082 * A * (-231)
11:48:13 <esowiki> [[MalTape]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61084 * A * (+125) Edit
11:52:10 <esowiki> [[MalTape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61085&oldid=61084 * A * (+516)
11:53:19 <esowiki> [[MalTape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61086&oldid=61085 * A * (+115) /* The tape */
11:53:49 <esowiki> [[MalTape]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61087&oldid=61086 * A * (-20) /* Computational class */
11:54:07 <esowiki> [[MalTape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61088&oldid=61087 * A * (+31) /* Computational class */
11:54:56 <Frater_EST> Does this group actually ever talk about occult/esoteric/paranormal or is that a red herring?
11:55:56 <esowiki> [[MalTape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61089&oldid=61088 * A * (+208) /* Computational class */
11:56:12 <esowiki> [[MalTape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61090&oldid=61089 * A * (+28) /* Actual commands */
11:57:03 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61091&oldid=60729 * A * (+61) /* Brainfuck derivatives */
12:02:09 <wob_jonas> Frater_E: that is a leftover from a topic set for late April fools
12:02:19 <HackEso> Frater_E: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
12:02:42 <wob_jonas> the channel topic usually says something like that
12:03:24 <Frater_EST> Oh, in that case I am in the wrong interest group. :P
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12:06:34 <wob_jonas> I guess we should change the channel topic
12:16:43 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61092&oldid=61081 * A * (+195) /* Incrementing */
12:18:37 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61093&oldid=61092 * A * (+3) pseudo-code seems crammed
12:20:53 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61094&oldid=61093 * A * (+5) /* Decrementing */
12:43:07 <fizzie> Oh, I hadn't even noticed that.
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12:44:10 -!- fizzie has set topic: Welcome to the international soiree for esoteric programming language discussion, design, development and devaluation! | https://esolangs.org | logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf.
12:44:23 <fizzie> wob_jonas: FWIW, we don't topiclock, it's a free-for-all to update.
12:44:34 <fizzie> I just reverted it to the pre-April-fools one.
12:44:59 <fizzie> (Well, except I also dropped the IOCCC mention, I think it's been long enough.)
12:45:09 <wob_jonas> we also do code golf and canaima support
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12:46:35 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61095&oldid=61094 * A * (+14) /* Attempt by User:Helen */
12:48:09 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61096&oldid=61095 * A * (+40) /* Another attempt by User:A */
12:53:15 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61097&oldid=61096 * A * (+7) /* Another attempt by User:A */
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13:09:04 -!- Lymia has set topic: Welcome to the international tea party for esoteric programming language discussion, design, development and devaluation! | https://esolangs.org | logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf.
13:09:13 -!- Lymia has set topic: Welcome to the international cosplay tea party for esoteric programming language discussion, design, development and devaluation! | https://esolangs.org | logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf.
13:18:28 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61098&oldid=61097 * Helen * (+266) /* Attempt by User:Helen */
13:21:04 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61099&oldid=61098 * Helen * (+14) /* Decrementing idea */ very minor formatting edit
13:21:52 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61100&oldid=61099 * Helen * (-14) Undo revision 61099 by [[Special:Contributions/Helen|Helen]] ([[User talk:Helen|talk]]), changed my mind
13:24:18 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61101&oldid=61100 * Helen * (+260) /* Attempt by User:Helen */
13:25:55 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61102&oldid=61101 * Helen * (+135) /* Attempt by User:Helen */
13:26:39 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61103&oldid=61102 * Helen * (-14) /* Attempt by User:Helen */
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13:46:46 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61104&oldid=61103 * A * (+196) This is completely possible.
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13:50:28 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61105&oldid=61104 * A * (+149) Add something.
13:52:50 <esowiki> [[Talk:Home Row]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61106&oldid=57274 * A * (-297) Blanked the page
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14:04:20 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61107&oldid=61105 * A * (-710) Compiling to a Minsky macine will be trivial, since Home Row was already compiled to it.
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14:16:56 <esowiki> [[JarJarScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61108&oldid=58105 * EnilKoder * (+0) correction of spelling of "grammar"
14:19:22 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61109&oldid=61107 * A * (-201) Sorry, I misunderstood the loops.
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14:24:43 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61110&oldid=61066 * A * (+20) The halting problem is of course impossible.
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14:25:42 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61111&oldid=61110 * A * (+55) /* Unproven */
14:26:06 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61112&oldid=61111 * A * (-75) /* Unproven */
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14:26:33 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61113&oldid=61112 * A * (+19) /* Unproven */
14:27:40 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61114&oldid=61113 * A * (-19) /* Unproven */
14:30:05 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61115&oldid=61109 * A * (+8) Add links that I forgot to add.
14:44:22 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61116&oldid=61115 * A * (-171) /* Unconditional Branching */
14:45:20 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61117&oldid=61083 * A * (-388) Blanked the page
14:55:50 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61118&oldid=61116 * A * (+200) You understood it the wrong way. I will explain it.
15:05:59 <HackEso> olist 1161: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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18:25:16 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61119&oldid=61118 * Helen * (+943) /* Incrementing */ Actually did algorithm
18:26:03 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61120&oldid=61119 * Helen * (-1397) /* Incrementing */ Reverting accident
18:48:35 <esowiki> [[Alphabet Stew]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61121&oldid=58275 * DMC * (-64) /* Description */
18:49:14 <esowiki> [[Alphabet Stew]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61122&oldid=61121 * DMC * (+0) /* Description */
18:50:54 <esowiki> [[Alphabet Stew]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61123&oldid=61122 * DMC * (+77) /* Description */
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19:00:20 <esowiki> [[User:DMC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61124&oldid=60812 * DMC * (+37)
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19:54:01 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61125&oldid=61120 * Helen * (+2077) /* Incrementing */
19:57:30 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61126&oldid=61125 * Helen * (+245) /* Attempt by User:Helen */
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20:02:30 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61127&oldid=61126 * Helen * (+951) /* Decrementing idea */ Minor change to incrementing algorithm probably yields correct result
20:02:57 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61128&oldid=61127 * Helen * (+6) /* Decrementing idea */ oops
20:08:12 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61129&oldid=61128 * Helen * (+122) /* Zeroing a cell */
20:13:27 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61130&oldid=61129 * Helen * (+367) /* Attempt by User:Helen */
20:13:49 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61131&oldid=61130 * Helen * (+4) /* Attempt by User:Helen */ small formatting error
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20:19:33 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61132&oldid=61114 * Helen * (+437) /* Impossible */ added halting problem because I thought it was good
20:21:14 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61133&oldid=61132 * Helen * (+57) /* Impossible */ formatting
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23:21:51 <oerjan> yay, i actually caught someone with an april fools joke! a bit late but...
23:22:36 <oerjan> i'm not sure that's ever happened before, but then my childhood memories are pretty blurry.
23:27:10 * oerjan is slightly surprised someone like b_jonas hadn't created [[Z3]] before.
23:29:48 <oerjan> a minor annoyance when checking lots of esolangs tabs is that unlike wikipedia, the page title for history pages starts with "Revision history" instead of the page name, meaning that the first letters showing in the tab lists give me no indication of which page is which without hovering.
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23:33:14 <oerjan> i would guess that's the reason why wikipedia changed it.
23:38:33 <oerjan> heh www.mediawiki.org doesn't have that change
23:50:27 <oerjan> hm neither does wiktionary.
23:52:48 <oerjan> german wikipedia has a version with quote marks.
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00:07:56 <oerjan> fizzie: can i change it to $1: Revision history like wikipedia?
00:11:33 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki_talk:History-title seems to be the discussion from when wikipedia changed it
00:12:38 <oerjan> well, one of the times, at least
00:14:10 <oerjan> the actual reordering seems to have happened in 2012
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00:17:19 <oerjan> . o O ( did fizzie just go to bed? )
00:18:39 <fizzie> If it's easily changeable, sure.
00:20:20 <esowiki> [[MediaWiki:History-Title]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61134 * Oerjan * (+20) Putting the article title first like on Wikipedia seems more useful for tabbed browsing
00:20:29 <int-e> <oerjan> . o O ( did fizzie just go to bed? ) <fizzie> If it's easily changeable, sure. <--- somewhat tempting quote, if only for the slight surreal note
00:21:01 <oerjan> or do we have a rule against it
00:21:09 <HackEso> quoteformat is: <nick> message; * nick action; two spaces between messages; all elisions marked with [...] other than irrelevant intervening messages; for messages separated by elision, one space on each side, not two.
00:21:37 <oerjan> i think by the rules you must put [...] first :P
00:23:35 <oerjan> doesn't seem to have taken effect yet, although there may be some caching involved
00:26:26 <fizzie> https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3AAllMessages&prefix=history-title&filter=all&lang=en&limit=50 still shows the old string.
00:26:42 <fizzie> I wonder if we have $wgUseDatabaseMessages on or not.
00:28:30 <fizzie> It should be on by default, and I don't see an override. Not sure if there's a handy special page that could show the config somewhere.
00:30:14 <fizzie> (There is a message cache too, though.)
00:33:46 <fizzie> Maybe we'll: wait and see what'll happen.
00:45:32 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61135&oldid=61091 * Oerjan * (+1) /* Brainfuck derivatives */ grm
00:47:28 <esowiki> [[Talk:Home Row]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61136&oldid=61106 * Oerjan * (+153) Undo blanking of another person's message
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05:35:09 <shachaf> Hmm, Infocom game source is posted at https://github.com/historicalsource
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08:30:51 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61137&oldid=61059 * Total Vacuum * (+112) /* Ideas for Names */
08:31:47 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61138&oldid=61137 * Total Vacuum * (+20) /* Ideas for Names */
08:32:46 <rain1> apparently it's an illegal upload by a notorious copyright infringer
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08:44:24 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61139&oldid=61131 * A * (+0) /* Attempt by User:Helen */
08:49:19 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61140&oldid=61138 * Total Vacuum * (+39) /* Ideas for Names */
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09:23:55 <esowiki> [[User:TuxCrafting]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61141&oldid=56864 * TuxCrafting * (+50)
09:29:32 <esowiki> [[User talk:TuxCrafting]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61142&oldid=59502 * TuxCrafting * (+190)
09:29:52 <esowiki> [[User:TuxCrafting]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61143&oldid=61141 * TuxCrafting * (+8)
09:47:54 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61144&oldid=61133 * A * (+25) There is aleady a proof in the talk page.
09:48:38 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61145&oldid=61079 * A * (-19) /* List of candidates */
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10:04:40 <orpheu> Someone sent this code to me: .... ..... .... .......... .... ......... ..... ... .... .... .... ........... .... ... .. ... ....... ..... ...... .... ...., ........ .. ...... ..... ....., .... ...! CCOA
10:05:02 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61146&oldid=61140 * Total Vacuum * (+318) /* Ideas for Names */
10:05:06 <orpheu> I've searched everywhere and can not figure out
10:05:46 <rain1> to co coa coa coa coa cow c^a coa coa coa coa ra coa con coa coa coa con coa coa coa con coa con coa coa coa coa□ccoa con coa coa coa coa con co
10:06:54 <orpheu> Can anyone help me or have an idea of what this code might be?
10:20:30 <esowiki> [[Uf]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61147 * Total Vacuum * (+337) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=uf (forth, microforth) |paradigms=imperative |author=[[User:Total Vacuum|Total Vacuum]] |year=[[:Category:2019|2019]] |memsys=:Category:Stack-base..."
10:20:40 <esowiki> [[User:Total Vacuum]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61148&oldid=49750 * Total Vacuum * (+504)
10:37:49 <esowiki> [[Uf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61149&oldid=61147 * Total Vacuum * (+485)
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10:40:19 <orpheu> Someone sent this code to me: .... ..... .... .......... .... ......... ..... ... .... .... .... ........... .... ... .. ... ....... ..... ...... .... ...., ........ .. ...... ..... ....., .... ...! CCOA
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10:44:04 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61150&oldid=61146 * Total Vacuum * (+31) /* Ideas for Names */
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10:45:17 <esowiki> [[Uf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61151&oldid=61149 * Total Vacuum * (-6)
10:52:16 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61152&oldid=61051 * Total Vacuum * (+9)
11:21:24 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61153&oldid=61139 * A * (+264) /* Attempt by User:Helen */
11:22:27 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61154&oldid=61153 * A * (-1) Move decrementing idea
11:22:45 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61155&oldid=61154 * A * (-4) /* Attempt by User:Helen */
11:25:24 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61156&oldid=61144 * A * (+198) /* Turing-completeness */
11:26:38 <esowiki> [[Works in progress]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61157&oldid=60307 * A * (-19) Add bitch to get more help from other users.
11:34:09 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61158&oldid=61155 * A * (+189) /* Attempt by User:Helen */
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12:02:23 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61159&oldid=61158 * A * (+19) /* Attempt by User:Helen */
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12:18:10 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61160&oldid=61159 * A * (+84) Already Turing-complete!
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12:22:50 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61161&oldid=61160 * A * (+8) Z3 is unique, so I will add "the" to them.
12:28:44 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61162&oldid=61161 * A * (+137) /* Attempt by User:Helen */
12:46:40 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61163&oldid=61162 * A * (-137) /* Attempt by User:Helen */
12:47:04 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61164&oldid=61163 * A * (-28) /* Attempt by User:Helen */
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13:11:02 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61165&oldid=61164 * A * (+37) /* Attempt by User:Helen */
13:15:43 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61166&oldid=61165 * A * (+119) /* User:Helen - Implementing arithematic operations */
13:16:39 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61167&oldid=61166 * A * (+87) /* User:Helen - Implementing arithematic operations */
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13:26:23 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61168&oldid=61167 * A * (-7) /* Attempt by User:Helen */
13:26:56 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61169&oldid=61168 * A * (+9) /* Attempt by User:Helen */
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13:31:47 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61170&oldid=61169 * A * (-2352) /* User:A - Idea of a tape in the accumulator */
13:32:16 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61171&oldid=61170 * A * (-109) /* User:A - Basic compilation */
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13:43:53 <int-e> Hmm "software-managed [cache] coherence".
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13:51:05 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61172&oldid=61171 * A * (+51) /* Attempt by User:Helen */
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13:54:12 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61173&oldid=61172 * A * (-47) /* Attempt by User:Helen */
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13:55:32 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61174&oldid=61173 * A * (-53) /* Attempt by User:Helen */
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14:00:08 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61175&oldid=61156 * A * (+26) /* Turing-completeness */
14:00:43 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61176&oldid=61175 * A * (+4) /* Turing-completeness */
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14:06:36 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:Featured languages/Candidates]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61177&oldid=57024 * A * (-167)
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14:15:49 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61178&oldid=61176 * A * (-47) /* Turing-completeness */
14:24:24 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61179&oldid=61178 * A * (-181) /* Turing-completeness */
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14:55:18 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61180&oldid=61174 * A * (-1) /* User:Helen - Implementing arithematic operations */
14:58:43 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61181&oldid=61180 * Helen * (+203) /* Attempt by User:Helen */
15:02:02 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61182&oldid=61181 * Helen * (+274) /* Attempt by User:Helen */
15:03:36 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61183&oldid=61182 * A * (+212)
15:04:33 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61184&oldid=61183 * Helen * (+6) /* Attempt by User:Helen */
15:07:36 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61185&oldid=61184 * A * (+145) /* Proof that all loops are computationally equivalent */
15:08:51 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61186&oldid=61185 * A * (+115) /* Proof that all loops are computationally equivalent */
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15:10:54 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61187&oldid=61186 * A * (+8) /* Proof that all loops are computationally equivalent */
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15:15:58 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61188&oldid=61145 * A * (-50) /* List of candidates */
15:21:35 <wob_jonas> oerjan: I haven't heard of this Z3, but does it by chance have something to do with the two languages described in https://esolangs.org/wiki/Blindfolded_Arithmetic ?
15:23:12 <wob_jonas> hmm. apparently it's at least similar.
15:23:48 <esowiki> [[Blindfolded Arithmetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61189&oldid=59373 * B jonas * (+50) link [[Z3]]
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15:34:27 <esowiki> [[BTree]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61190 * TuxCrafting * (+2663) Created page with "'''BTree''' is an esoteric language invented by [[User:TuxCrafting]] where programs are formatted as binary trees. == Syntax == Programs are made of nodes, which contain one..."
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15:57:26 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61191&oldid=61187 * Helen * (+45) /* Incrementing */
16:00:53 <esowiki> [[BTree]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61192&oldid=61190 * TuxCrafting * (+133) categories
16:03:02 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61193&oldid=61152 * TuxCrafting * (+12)
16:18:28 <esowiki> [[User:TuxCrafting]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61194&oldid=61143 * TuxCrafting * (+192)
16:47:37 <esowiki> [[BTree]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61195&oldid=61192 * TuxCrafting * (+104)
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17:31:50 <esowiki> [[User:Total Vacuum]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61196&oldid=61148 * Total Vacuum * (+4) /* ideas */
17:34:14 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61197&oldid=61150 * Total Vacuum * (-27) /* Ideas for Names */
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18:34:56 <b_jonas> oerjan: am I associated with BANCStar so much that I ought not to propose it as a featured article on the wiki?
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19:28:28 <esowiki> [[BANCStar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61198&oldid=40697 * B jonas * (+296)
19:38:41 <esowiki> [[BANCStar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61199&oldid=61198 * B jonas * (+45) /* Implementation */
19:58:34 <oren> given a large enough corpus of code in a language L, one can construct a turing-complete language @L where code is a list of references to lines of code in that corpus
19:59:01 <oren> foo.pl:230;bar.pl:30;...
20:02:27 <oren> now, imagine M@L,C to be the corpus in language M such that a program written in @L for the corpus C, would work when applied to it.
20:03:55 <oren> I think it is probably extremely hard to derive this corpus
20:04:33 <oren> even if both languages are simple imperative languages
20:09:48 <oren> translating a program line-for-line into a different language is hard, but M@L,C is harder, requires that each line behaves the same as its corresponding line in C, not only in it's context in C, but in any possible context
20:13:44 <b_jonas> my hon. and learned friend fungot, has fizzie been adding new markov models to you?
20:13:44 <fungot> b_jonas: the one who got you killed him for it?
20:14:17 <b_jonas> https://esolangs.org/logs/2014-06.html#lJIc
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20:25:50 <b_jonas> `addquote <shachaf> #define __NR_oldolduname 59 <olsner> fungot: what's your old old name? <fungot> olsner: they decided not to waste any brain cells storing obscure unix silliness).
20:25:50 <fungot> b_jonas: you and the pogo hammer. he transported, it saved a princess.
20:25:52 <HackEso> 1333) <shachaf> #define __NR_oldolduname 59 <olsner> fungot: what's your old old name? <fungot> olsner: they decided not to waste any brain cells storing obscure unix silliness).
20:26:12 <b_jonas> # quote from https://esolangs.org/logs/2014-06.html#lO1b
20:27:14 <olsner> ooh, fresh me-quote, I wonder how long ago it was that I actually said anything in here
20:27:18 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck* ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
20:27:30 <FireFly> olsner: well, now you just reset the counter
20:27:53 <olsner> FireFly: I figured the quote did anyway
20:28:31 <olsner> so ehm, quote me in 5 years and I'll try to remember not to respond
20:29:38 <b_jonas> oh, counter for how long it's been that you said anything here
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20:39:48 <HackEso> Mario is a classic PSPACE-complete problem invented by Nintendo.
20:40:51 <esowiki> [[User:Total Vacuum]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61200&oldid=61196 * Total Vacuum * (+205) /* ideas */
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20:48:43 <b_jonas> shachaf: yeah, I was reading the logs for BANCStar
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21:35:40 <esowiki> [[BTree]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61201&oldid=61195 * TuxCrafting * (+444) woo, tc
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22:50:36 <ais523> hmm, the Z3 on the wiki is confusing me, as there's a non-eso language called Z3 too
22:51:11 <ais523> or, well, "non-eso" is relative here, it's pretty eso compared to languages like Java, but it's intended for serious use
22:55:05 <shachaf> Presumably Zuse's Z3 came first.
22:57:17 <shachaf> SAT solvers are pretty neat.
22:57:28 <shachaf> I'd like to learn all the fancy tricks they use.
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23:37:41 <ais523> the docs for Microsoft's Z3 describe it as a "theorem prover", for some reason
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00:23:36 <ais523> I'm not sure; its most common use seems to be constraint solving
00:23:41 <ais523> but I've never used it directly myself
00:30:41 <oerjan> wob_jonas: i don't really know Z3 either but it seemed like the kind of thing you sometimes add
00:33:14 <oerjan> as for BANCStar, i seem to recall we used to consider it an example of a language that isn't esoteric because it was meant for something practical.
00:37:56 <HackEso> 1333) <shachaf> #define __NR_oldolduname 59 <olsner> fungot: what's your old old name? <fungot> olsner: they decided not to waste any brain cells storing obscure unix silliness).
00:38:03 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: quoteformat: not found
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00:38:10 <HackEso> quoteformat is: <nick> message; * nick action; two spaces between messages; all elisions marked with [...] other than irrelevant intervening messages; for messages separated by elision, one space on each side, not two.
00:38:47 <oerjan> `sled quotes//1333s, <, <,g
00:38:49 <HackEso> quotes//<Slereah> EgoBot just opened a chat session with me to say "bork bork bork" \ <Quas_NaArt> Hmmm... My fingers and tongue seem to be as quick as ever, but my lips have definitely weakened... <Quas_NaArt> More practice is in order. \ <AnMaster> that's where I got it <AnMaster> rocket launch facility gift shop \ <Warrigal> GKennethR: he should be told that you should always ask someone before killing them. \ <Quas_NaArt> His body should be given to
00:38:55 <HackEso> 1333) <shachaf> #define __NR_oldolduname 59 <olsner> fungot: what's your old old name? <fungot> olsner: they decided not to waste any brain cells storing obscure unix silliness).
00:39:38 <shachaf> that seems compliant to me hth
00:40:34 <shachaf> I should start writing " <oerjan>" in all the quotable things I say.
00:40:57 <HackEso> 260) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something \ 305) <cpressey> `quote django <HackEgo> 352) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something <cpressey> thankfully only one \ 306) <monqy> `quote django <HackEgo> 352) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something \ 407) <cpressey> `quote django <HackEgo
00:41:16 <oerjan> you won't beat django anyway
00:42:03 * oerjan whistles Tanta til Beate
00:42:36 <shachaf> @die 1d2 -- 1 for <shachaf> , 2 for <django>
00:43:06 <oerjan> that was not the contest hth
00:44:56 <shachaf> @google "press is the enemy"
00:44:56 <lambdabot> https://www.quora.com/Did-President-Trump-actually-say-the-press-is-the-enemy-of-the-people-I-can-only-find-where-he-said-fake-news-is-the-enemy-of-the-people
00:47:02 <shachaf> Unicode text rendering is locale-dependent?
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01:38:21 <kmc> i'm going to play baba is you
01:40:18 <oerjan> . o O ( Baba was You, the time traveling puzzle game )
01:42:25 <kmc> Braid is a pretty good time traveling puzzle game
01:43:36 <shachaf> I wanted to make a 2+1D puzzle game where you have some tricky spacetime manifold.
01:45:45 <kmc> how's that wrk
01:46:56 <shachaf> i had some ideas but it turns out to be p. complicated
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01:55:41 <kmc> this game is charming
01:55:43 <kmc> i am charmed
01:57:08 <kmc> i already encountered some tricky situations such as a move that changes the rule of whether said move will kill me
01:57:27 <shachaf> 2019-03.txt:02:50:26 <shachaf> kmc: you should babajam
02:01:19 <kmc> what does that mean
02:18:04 * kmc is very stuck :(
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02:28:31 <kmc> yay i got it
02:29:22 <kmc> ALGAE IS DEFEAT
02:29:38 <kmc> LOVE IS PUSH, LOVE IS WIN
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02:56:32 <shachaf> I wish all the rules in Baba Is You were deterministic.
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03:18:37 <kmc> what does DOOR IS SHUT mean
03:24:59 <Hooloovo0> a X IS SHUT means that a Y IS OPEN will unlock/break X
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04:34:45 <kmc> this game is adorable
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04:45:56 <kmc> oh god now there are text tiles that control the behavior of text tiles
04:56:14 <esowiki> [[Z3]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61202&oldid=61071 * Salpynx * (+233) links with details of the Z3 architecture
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05:17:39 <FireFly> the difficulty ramps up quite quickly
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05:23:03 <esowiki> [[Talk:Z3]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61203 * Salpynx * (+849) trying to clarify the 2nd paragraph (not about Z3)
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06:50:49 <kmc> shachaf: what do you mean about the rules not being deterministic?
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07:35:17 <myname> baba is you is a great game. i didn't play that much yet, i am stuck in the second bonus level underwater
07:37:32 <myname> there are two, the first has "crab is defeat" and "flag is win" in the upper right corner to be activated, the second one also has "jelly is push" and bypasses the option to make a "rock is you" to sneak through the crabs
07:38:43 <shachaf> that means if you touch oerjan you disappear, hth
07:39:05 <myname> it is quite the nice sequence
07:39:41 <myname> the levels are so similar and i like how the second breaks the way you can solve the first
07:39:58 <shachaf> That's a pattern in this game.
07:40:29 <shachaf> In particular [redacted] and [redacted], and also [redacted] and [redacted]
07:40:34 <shachaf> And a few other instances.
07:43:08 <myname> also, if puzzles are in right now: snakebird is awesome
07:43:42 <myname> the graphics discouraged me the first few times from trying it because it looked too childish to be a challenge, but it is
07:46:37 <myname> also, "the sequence" and "the sequence 2" for mobile are nice bullying automaton puzzles
08:13:42 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61204&oldid=61191 * A * (-906) Delete a quite irrelevant conversation
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08:50:36 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61205&oldid=61204 * TuxCrafting * (+680)
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09:15:05 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61206&oldid=61205 * TuxCrafting * (+380)
09:16:41 <rain1> snakebird is really good
09:16:54 <rain1> ive also tried stephen sausage roll but it's too difficult
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09:26:04 <HackEso> TG is short for Turing-Gödel, the highest possible level of difficulty for a multiplayer game. At this level, it's undecidable whether you can manage to halt before losing or not.
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10:37:23 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61207&oldid=61179 * Salpynx * (+12) TCness is an open question
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11:22:05 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61208&oldid=61206 * A * (+11) /* Attempt by User:Helen */
11:22:35 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61209&oldid=61208 * A * (+0) Wait, switch order...
11:26:36 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61210&oldid=61209 * A * (+118) /* Some thoughts */
11:27:30 <esowiki> [[User talk:Helen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61211&oldid=60312 * A * (+636)
11:27:43 <esowiki> [[User talk:Helen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61212&oldid=61211 * A * (+64) /* Comment from User:TuxCrafting= */
11:28:34 <esowiki> [[User talk:Helen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61213&oldid=61212 * A * (+379)
11:32:19 <esowiki> [[User talk:Helen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61214&oldid=61213 * A * (+15)
11:35:44 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61215&oldid=61210 * A * (+47) /* Some thoughts */
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11:41:31 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61216&oldid=61215 * TuxCrafting * (+202)
11:53:41 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61217&oldid=61216 * A * (+142) /* Attempt by User:Helen */
11:57:08 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61218&oldid=61217 * A * (+39) /* A: Home Row to bitch */
12:04:17 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61219&oldid=61218 * A * (+186) /* Some thoughts */
12:05:08 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61220&oldid=61219 * A * (+11) /* Some thoughts */
12:06:28 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61221&oldid=61220 * A * (-1) /* Some thoughts */
12:07:44 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61222&oldid=61221 * A * (+0) Sent wrong URL
12:30:51 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61223&oldid=61222 * A * (+122) /* A: Home Row to bitch */
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12:42:20 <esowiki> [[Z3]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61224&oldid=61202 * A * (-7)
12:45:25 <esowiki> [[Talk:Z3]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61225&oldid=61203 * A * (+192)
12:50:07 <esowiki> [[Z3]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61226&oldid=61224 * A * (-416)
12:51:40 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61227&oldid=61223 * A * (+34) /* Combined attempt by User:A and User:Helen */
12:55:57 <esowiki> [[Talk:Z3]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61228&oldid=61225 * A * (-192) Undo revision 61225 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]])
12:58:03 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61229&oldid=61227 * A * (+152) /* Attempt by User:Helen */
13:03:15 <esowiki> [[Z3]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61230&oldid=61226 * A * (+8)
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13:04:58 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61231&oldid=61207 * A * (+92) /* Impossible */
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13:31:28 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61232&oldid=61229 * A * (+63) /* Proof that all loops are computationally equivalent */
13:49:58 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61233&oldid=61232 * A * (+447) /* Proof that the Halting problem is trivial in bitch */
13:51:14 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61234&oldid=61233 * A * (+128) /* Proof that the Halting problem is trivial in bitch */
14:03:46 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61235&oldid=61234 * A * (+15) I helped you out a bit.
14:14:33 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61236&oldid=61235 * A * (+59) /* Some thoughts */
14:16:27 <esowiki> [[User talk:Helen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61237&oldid=61214 * A * (+61) /* Comment from User:TuxCrafting from bitch */
14:22:17 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61238&oldid=61236 * A * (+8) /* A: Home Row to bitch */
14:24:52 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61239&oldid=61188 * A * (+114) /* List of candidates */
14:26:44 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61240&oldid=61239 * A * (+26) /* List of candidates */
14:27:21 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61241&oldid=61240 * A * (+1) /* List of candidates */
14:28:17 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61242&oldid=61241 * A * (-75) /* List of candidates */
14:29:10 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61243&oldid=61242 * A * (-13)
14:31:40 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61244&oldid=61243 * A * (+26) /* List of candidates */
14:33:24 <Taneb> ...brainfuck was the features language on the wiki for pretty much my entire time at uni
14:34:55 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61245&oldid=61238 * A * (+100) /* A: Home Row to bitch */
14:36:23 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61246&oldid=61245 * A * (+16) /* A: Home Row to bitch */
14:45:40 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61247&oldid=61231 * Helen * (+76) /* Basic Flow Instructions */ Clarified looping due to a comment in the talk page by [[User:TuxCrafting|TuxCrafting]]
14:55:39 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61248&oldid=61246 * Helen * (+53) /* Incrementing */
14:56:42 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61249&oldid=61247 * Helen * (+4) Updated computational class to unknown
15:08:44 <esowiki> [[User talk:Helen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61250&oldid=61237 * Helen * (+449) /* Comment from User:TuxCrafting from Talk:bitch */
15:14:10 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61251&oldid=61248 * Helen * (+67) /* Incrementing */
15:14:33 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61252&oldid=61251 * Helen * (-257) /* Decrementing idea */
15:15:59 <esowiki> [[User:Helen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61253&oldid=58955 * Helen * (+118)
15:16:12 <esowiki> [[User:Helen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61254&oldid=61253 * Helen * (+11)
15:16:34 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61255&oldid=61252 * Helen * (+85) /* Some thoughts */
15:17:09 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61256&oldid=61255 * Helen * (+75) /* Some thoughts */
15:18:53 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61257&oldid=61256 * Helen * (+163) /* Attempt by User:Helen and User:A */
15:33:10 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61258&oldid=61257 * TuxCrafting * (+805)
15:33:53 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61259&oldid=61258 * TuxCrafting * (+93)
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15:41:04 <ZM> I've been playing around a bit with BytePusher
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15:47:32 <oren> Damn it now I have to buy that game
15:50:21 <oren> people keep talking about it and it sound so awesome
15:51:13 <Taneb> I don't know much about it
15:51:42 <int-e> We[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluralis_majestatis]'re all done with that game.
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15:56:58 <shachaf> Taneb: imo you should baba it up hth
15:57:32 <Taneb> I still don't know anything abou tit
15:59:38 <shachaf> Taneb: good, that's the way to do it
15:59:53 <Taneb> Does it run on Linux
16:00:17 <Taneb> Will it run well on my computer that doesn't currently and may not soon have a GPU
16:00:58 <shachaf> it is not a fancy graphics game
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16:01:19 <Taneb> How much does it cost
16:01:28 <Taneb> myname: I have one of those
16:01:31 <shachaf> here is a trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7MJljsoUSo
16:01:38 <myname> Taneb: one from nintendo?
16:01:51 <int-e> Yeah it doesn't look like it needs a GPU. OTOH I'm pretty sure it uses OpenGL.
16:02:07 <myname> the switch is an awesome console
16:02:10 <Taneb> That's a lot of dollars unless that , marks the decimal point
16:02:33 <int-e> shachaf: can I sell my copy to you?
16:02:56 <int-e> (I know, Steam won't allow it...)
16:02:59 <shachaf> A second-hand copy? I'll pay you $0.14 for it.
16:03:06 <shachaf> Oh no, you bought it on Steam?
16:03:32 <shachaf> I bought it on humblebundle.com because you get a non-Steam-DRM copy.
16:03:38 <shachaf> ...And then played it on Steam.
16:04:00 <int-e> I'm not following humblebundle anymore.
16:04:20 <shachaf> I didn't get it as part of a bundle. I stopped following those a long time ago.
16:04:27 <shachaf> They're just a regular store now.
16:05:00 <int-e> (I found that most of the non-crappy games in those bundles were the non-crappy games that made me buy earlier bundles.)
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16:06:13 <int-e> I think I disliked the infrequent updates.
16:06:20 -!- LKoen has joined.
16:06:43 <shachaf> Oh, look at this. They have 9 bundles.
16:07:10 <int-e> . o O ( Oh look at this, crap^9. (I haven't looked) )
16:07:28 <shachaf> I'm sure I want a "₿lockchain & ¢ryptocurrencybundle"!
16:07:56 <shachaf> Apparently there's a Unicode code point for U+20BF BITCOIN SIGN?
16:07:57 <Taneb> Donate more than the average and get 0.0001 bitcoin
16:08:15 <shachaf> I always figured people were abusing some other code point that happened to have a B with a line through it.
16:08:20 <shachaf> Now I'm disappointed in the Unicode committee.
16:08:49 <int-e> shachaf: is it a double-linked blockchain?
16:09:14 <TuxCrafting> seeing all the emojis you shouldn't be surprised by the uc being stupid
16:10:40 <int-e> get more mystery games on May 3 <-- they have invisible crap too
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16:11:33 <shachaf> You know it has to be good if they won't even tell you what it is.
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16:16:26 <oren> my font doesn't have the bitcoin sign
16:16:48 <oren> bitcoin sign is a very important character to support
16:17:00 <shachaf> I was about to say, can I use your font?
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16:27:52 <myname> can't wait for the switch release of slay the spire
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16:37:41 <oren> Ok, I have just added 5 new currency symbols to my font
16:38:56 <HackEso> dingbat:dingbat is a famous font designer for Microsoft. \ font:#esoteric bitmap fonts include: \oren\'s font http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm , lifthrasiir's font https://github.com/lifthrasiir/unison/ , b_jonas's font http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/fecupboard20-c.pcf.gz , fizzie's font https://github.com/fis/rfk86/tree/master/web/font , FireFly's fonts http://xen.firefly.nu/up/fonts/ \ lifthrasiir's font:lifthrasiir's font is https://github.com
16:38:57 <oren> U+20BB to U+20BF
16:40:28 <shachaf> whoa, your font's metadata seems all wrong
16:41:11 <shachaf> I'm loading it with freetype and rendering glyphs using bitmap_left, bitmap_top, etc.
16:41:23 <shachaf> And it's sure looking terrible.
16:41:50 <oren> it's a TTF font not bitmap
16:42:58 <shachaf> I know, Freetype is rendering it to a bitmap.
16:43:23 <shachaf> I don't know much about font rendering but what I'm doing worked fine with all the other TTF fonts I tried.
16:44:06 <shachaf> http://slbkbs.org/tmp/oren-font.png
16:44:11 <oren> this font has a persistent problem with working under subpixel rendering
16:45:27 <shachaf> http://slbkbs.org/tmp/oren-font-atlas-128.pgm
16:45:55 <shachaf> I might be doing something wrong but the other TTF fonts I tried look OK.
16:46:54 <oren> Well I mean, those other ttf fonts were generated by programs written by people who understood ttf formatbetter than me
16:47:21 <oren> http://www.orenwatson.be/bdf2ttf.htm
16:48:00 <oren> rather than by a c program written using documentation found online
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16:48:14 <shachaf> I don't understand TTF at all.
16:48:26 <oren> it works fine in a web browser and in most terminals
16:49:51 <oren> I mean, it's definitely possible I made a mistake that only causes problems in some circumstances.
16:50:48 <oren> ttf is really badly documented
16:51:56 <oren> I didn't even *attempt* to do any of the special hinting program stuff
16:53:04 <shachaf> It might have to do with how I'm packing the thing.
16:53:08 <oren> "\0n\0e\0o\0l\0e\0t\0t\0e\0r\0s" yay for doing UTF-16 the stupid way
16:55:04 <oren> I'm pretty proud of my algorithm for converting the bitmap into a series of curves
16:57:02 <shachaf> face->size->metrics.height is 1024 (16px?), but the actual glyphs are of height 24px
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16:58:41 <oren> the glphs ought to be 16 px high tho
16:59:10 <oren> hmm, where did I put 24 px
17:00:19 <shachaf> I mean, I'm loading it at a particular size to get bitmaps.
17:00:26 <shachaf> Presumably things are being scaled to give me these numbers.
17:06:56 <shachaf> OK, this looks a bit better: http://slbkbs.org/tmp/oren-font-2.png
17:07:25 <shachaf> In that things are being packed correctly. But the height is still wrong.
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17:11:16 <shachaf> In http://slbkbs.org/tmp/oren-font-3.png
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17:12:14 <oren> it looks like it thinks the height is half of what it is
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17:13:20 <oren> Well, I have a theory that my values in the OS/2 table are wrong
17:13:30 <int-e> nice vertical kerning ;-)
17:14:08 <shachaf> I can just take credit for this new innovation.
17:14:47 <int-e> Doesn't that happen in Japanese calligraphy?
17:15:18 * int-e is playing with Coq.
17:15:24 <shachaf> You mean text written vertically?
17:15:29 <int-e> It's not as terrible yet as I was told it would be.
17:15:37 <shachaf> OK, perpendicular ligatures.
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17:18:05 <oren> so basically, the ttf format has a bunch of pairs of ascent and descent values
17:18:22 <oren> for my font these would be 12 and 4
17:18:25 <shachaf> Oh, I bet I should be using those values.
17:18:34 <shachaf> oren: Are write32 etc. doing endianness swaps?
17:18:48 <shachaf> Why are you writing the code in a way that's both unportable and hard to understand?
17:18:54 <oren> shachaf: yeah they all do endianness
17:18:54 <shachaf> Endianness swaps are scow.
17:20:04 <shachaf> unsigned char buf[4] = { c >> 24, c >> 16, c >> 8, c };
17:20:07 <oren> so, suppose that i got the sign wrong on one of my descent values
17:20:25 <shachaf> Endianness swaps should be illegal.
17:21:06 <oren> if that happened, the descent would effectively be -4, making the whole hieght of the character 12 - 4 = 8, instead of 12 + 4 = 16
17:22:06 <oren> that's my best guess as to what is happening
17:22:26 <shachaf> ascender is 24, descender is 7
17:22:58 <oren> rounding involved I guess
17:23:40 <shachaf> Ascender is 1536, descender is 448
17:24:14 <oren> but is that descent measured downward or upward I wonder
17:24:50 <shachaf> Ascender is 1920, descender is -512
17:25:19 <int-e> 'match lst as b return (lst = b -> A) with' <-- now what.
17:26:26 <oren> yeah it's definitely a sign problem in one of my descender values
17:29:06 <oren> yup, hhea.descent is suppose to be negative
17:30:37 <oren> hhea.descent is of type "FWORD"
17:31:02 <oren> yeah maybe I should compress it?
17:32:57 <shachaf> But I lost that great ligature.
17:33:14 <shachaf> I guess it's not a ligature in this case, just good kerning.
17:33:58 <oren> I think css supports negative % line height?
17:34:18 <oren> I've seen it used for fonts that have excessive vertical space
17:34:35 <shachaf> I mean, I can certainly do it.
17:34:47 <shachaf> But it doens't happen naturally now.
17:37:01 <oren> zip compresses it to 5 megabytes
17:37:56 <oren> I guess that's like, 20% size
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19:18:32 <kmc> so how do people do Baba Is You esoprogramming
19:18:35 <kmc> is there a level editor?
19:27:40 <int-e> https://babaiswiki.fandom.com/wiki/Level_editor seems to be the answer to that question
19:31:53 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61260&oldid=61259 * Helen * (-9791) /* Combined attempt by User:A and User:Helen */ Moved to bottom (part 1)
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19:33:48 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61261&oldid=61260 * Helen * (+9806) /*Combined attempt by User:A and User:Helen*/ Moved to bottom (part 2)
19:39:54 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61262&oldid=61117 * Helen * (+225) Suggenstion for [[Volatile]]'s push 1 trick
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19:45:44 <b_jonas> hmm, so apparently Taneb hasn't invented Baba is you yet
19:46:01 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61263&oldid=61262 * Helen * (+137) /* Volatile push 1 algorithm */
19:46:11 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61264&oldid=61263 * Helen * (+4) /* Volatile push 1 algorithm */
19:47:19 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61265&oldid=61261 * Helen * (+1) /* Some thoughts */ Spelling mistake (sorry I noticed and tried to ignore but I had to)
19:50:58 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61266&oldid=61264 * Helen * (+189) New suggestion for 1 algorithm
19:54:54 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61267&oldid=61266 * Helen * (+0)
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20:15:48 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61268&oldid=61265 * Helen * (+1) /* [Unsuccessful] Combined attempt by User:A and User:Helen */ Changed title to be more useful
20:15:55 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61269&oldid=61268 * Helen * (+11) /* [Unsuccessful] Compilation to Z3 by User:A and User:Helen */
20:16:17 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61270&oldid=61269 * Helen * (+30) /* Attempt by User:Helen and User:A */
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20:36:37 <esowiki> [[OISC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61271&oldid=58682 * TuxCrafting * (+9) fix link for DJN
20:44:57 <Taneb> Do you have the other phi
20:46:57 <oren> but that apparently is the wrong way around?
20:49:11 <oren> argh wikipedia doesn't clearly say whether 3d5 is the loopy phi or 3c6!
20:50:51 <HackEso> [U+03D5 GREEK PHI SYMBOL] [U+03C6 GREEK SMALL LETTER PHI]
20:50:54 <oren> and then there is this fucking thing: ᵠ which is called MODIFIER LETTER SMALL GREEK PHI
20:51:08 <shachaf> small phi looks loopy here hth
20:51:26 <oren> but on wikipedia I see a fucking PSI not a PHI
20:52:11 <HackEso> [U+1D60 MODIFIER LETTER SMALL GREEK PHI]
20:54:38 <oren> ok what the fuck Calibri
20:57:50 <oren> where do I report a mistake in Calibri
20:58:40 <shachaf> You use `complain [your complaint]
21:11:39 <oren> how the hell does something like this even happen
21:13:48 <oren> and notget discovered for 5 years in one of the most popular typefaces in the world
21:14:20 <oren> wait no. calibri came out in 2007
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21:24:41 <b_jonas> oren: how do you know it didn't get discovered in 12 years? do you think that if it had been realized, an updated version of the font would have gotten to you by now?
21:25:46 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: \: not found
21:29:53 <oren> b_jonas: the calibri I have is from very recently installed MS Office
21:31:39 <oren> try the string ψϕφᵠ here: https://fonts.adobe.com/fonts/calibri
21:32:11 <b_jonas> oren: is the office installer recent too? because I could install twenty year old software very recently if I wanted.
21:32:32 <b_jonas> stupid mathematician question
21:33:40 <b_jonas> you have verified that all of it comes from Calibri, not from replacement fonts, right?
21:34:58 <oren> it's version Version 5.62
21:35:53 <oren> which I guess is not the most recent version
21:36:17 <fizzie> Uh, that https://fonts.adobe.com/fonts/calibri view for just ϕφ is /so weird/. All the four possible different combinations of loopiness are there.
21:36:58 <oren> https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/msoffice/forum/all/phi-characters-in-calibri-font-on-windows-78/e47e42d9-cc6a-4643-af1f-ae38a867575c
21:37:10 <oren> but that Phi-related issue was already reported
21:37:43 <oren> and hasn't been solved as of windows 10
21:38:54 <fizzie> I think there was sort of a note on this in the Unicode code charts, last I was looking this up.
21:39:15 <fizzie> 03C6 GREEK SMALL LETTER PHI: "the ordinary Greek letter, showing considerable glyph variation".
21:40:07 <fizzie> + "in mathematical contexts, the loopy glyph is preferred, to contrast with 03D5".
21:40:36 <fizzie> The notes for 03D5 GREEP PHY SYMBOL on the other hand explicitly say "used as a technical symbol, with a stroked glyph".
21:41:09 <oren> I just got a response from a guy from Microsoft. "Hello, Thank you for reporting this issue. It has been forwarded to the appropriate team within Microsoft."
21:43:42 <fizzie> An euphemism, no doubt.
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21:44:27 <oren> "Just fwiw, I reproduced here easily. Other fonts in the stable have"
21:44:29 <oren> correct glyphs, and it may be just the Calibri regular body font.
21:44:45 <oren> says some guy with an @microsoft.com address
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22:47:32 <salpynx> joining for the phi talk, interesting Unicode issue
22:47:59 <salpynx> https://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/03d5/index.htm had an 'Old name' of "GREEK SMALL LETTER SCRIPT PHI", which suggests to me the curly form. Checking up on what this means in specs, looks like Unicode 1.0 U+03D5 was called "GREEK SMALL LETTER SCRIPT PHI", was the curly one, with a note "used as a technical symbol". In 1.1 the name was changed to "GREEK PHI SYMBOL" which represents the technical symbol sense, but looses t
22:52:27 <ais523> I would like to say for the record that despite User:A being involved, bitch is actually an interesting language
22:52:49 <ais523> my guess is that it probably /is/ TC, but the proof may require you to do something silly like shifting the accumuluator by itself
22:53:14 <ais523> …come to think of it, maybe that isn't so silly, you could probably use it as a modulo test?
22:54:02 <fizzie> salpynx: Yes, I didn't notice the answers.microsoft.com also linked to the long story, namely UTR 25 https://unicode.org/reports/tr25/ "2.3.1 Representative Glyphs for Greek Phi" which describes how they swapped the representative glyphs around Unicode 3.0.
22:54:11 <ais523> # is clearly only useful for initialization as it brings the entire virtual machine to a known state
22:54:32 <salpynx> My take is that in 1.0 U+03d5 must be curly, in 1.1 I don't think you can say which the correct glyph for either U+03D5 or U+03C6 is. U+03C6 makes more sense to be curly, because that is the "modern" written form, but for symbol golden ratio requires closed form, while other uses require curly
22:56:44 <ais523> the basic problem is that the only actual conditional that exists in the language checks to see if the accumulator is 0, which makes the language a PDA if you stick entirely to bit-at-a-time operations…
22:57:26 <fizzie> From UTR 25: "For mathematical and technical use, the straight form ϕ of the /small phi/ is an important symbol (TEX \phi) and needs to be consistently distinguishable from the loopy form (TEX \varphi). The straight form phi glyph ϕ is used as the representative glyph for the /phi symbol/ at U+03D5 to satisfy this distinction."
22:57:43 <salpynx> fizzie: I hadn't actually read that, I was just figuring it out from the old 1.0 spec, this looks like good info. I may have assumed the change happened in 1.1 in my previous msg.
22:58:27 <fizzie> It goes on to at least strongly imply U+03D5 must be straight, and says of U+03C6 that "fonts used primarily for Greek text may use either glyph form -- but fonts that also intend to support technical use of the Greek letters should use the loopy form".
22:58:37 <fizzie> To summarize: characters are hard.
23:00:09 <ais523> I think Unicode would have been way better off if it consistently encoded (script, shape) pairs, with the two halves being independent where they made sense to be
23:00:20 <ais523> that way, "technical, phi" and "Greek, phi" wouldn't have to share rules at all
23:00:30 <ais523> (this would also work pretty well for CJK, Cyrillic versus Latin, etc.)
23:00:43 <salpynx> fizzie: agree, characters are hard. From wikipedia the phi article looks to me like probability theory distinguishes between curly phi and old-phi: " probability density function of the normal distribution" vs "characteristic function of a random variable X"
23:00:50 <ais523> two letters which were visually similar would be given the same "shape" even if they had an entirely different meaning (with the script telling them apart)
23:01:51 <j4cbo> see also the Turkish dotted i murders
23:03:25 <ais523> oh yes, this plan fixes Turkish i too
23:04:03 <ais523> the uppercase of (Latin, dotted I) is I (i.e. (Latin, dotless capital I)), and the uppercase of (Turkish, dotted I) is İ (i.e. (Turkish, dotted capital I))
23:04:16 <fizzie> Based on a quick grep, I've never used \phi and \varphi in the same .tex file.
23:05:58 <salpynx> my fix would be to add another meaningful symbol character if curly-phi and old-straight-phi are really meaningfully different symbols, and Greek letter phi can still have either/any glyph.
23:07:44 <salpynx> technical phi seems overloaded currently, as there are two different technical phis you might want to represent
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23:10:05 <fizzie> `unicode LATIN SMALL LETTER TAILLESS PHI
23:11:12 <salpynx> ais523: agree re. bitch being interesting, I was trying last night to create BCT using the commands. I don't think it is TC as any useful operation you can do to the accumulator ends up destroying it, and the bit-shifting, while tantalising, doesn't actually help
23:11:47 <ais523> salpynx: the problem, from my point of view, is more trying to shift data /out/ of the bit storage
23:12:02 <ais523> you can store arbitrary amounts of data in there, but I can't see any way to figure out how much you have to be able to retrieve it
23:12:16 <ais523> err, nondestructively, at least
23:12:29 <salpynx> granted I wasn't trying super hard, but since I can't _proove_ it isn't TC, I'm just going to state opinions in chat FWIW...
23:14:18 <oerjan> <Taneb> ...brainfuck was the features language on the wiki for pretty much my entire time at uni <-- it symbolizes how your brain got well and truly fucked hth
23:15:12 <salpynx> ais523: exactly, that was my experience, you can move bits back and forth, but there is nowhere else to store anything -- I don't think there is a way to simulate two registers, or access both ends for BCT, it still just a single accumulator
23:16:00 <salpynx> it feels close, and that's what makes it interesting I guess. It's not obvious it's not TC, and feels like there could be a trick. I'm not sure I want to spend more time on it though!
23:16:53 <ais523> it'd be TC if there were a way to do an if statement based on the bottom bit, that'd let you so something High Rise-ish
23:17:14 <ais523> not exactly the same, but a similar principle behind the TCness
23:18:51 <ais523> oh, duh: can't you just simulate a 1D cellular automaton?
23:19:39 <ais523> rule 110 seems trivial to write in this, as does simulating an infinite repeating pattern at one end; unfortunately, the rule 110 TCness proof requires a repeating pattern at /both/ ends
23:20:02 <ais523> but we aren't limited to neighbourhoods of size 1, so just pick a more complex automaton that works from a blank tape
23:20:36 <ais523> the problem at this point is the lack of parentheses in expressions…
23:20:56 <ais523> you have enough power to write automata but maybe not all automata
23:20:59 <salpynx> are there other candidates other than 110?
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23:21:34 <ais523> salpynx: in terms of size-1-neighbourhood, and not counting rules that are symmetrically equivalent, rule 30 is the other main candidate, its TCness is unknown
23:22:39 <salpynx> right, that's the random number generating one
23:22:51 <ais523> *allegedly it's not a very good RNG
23:22:56 <ais523> but Mathematica uses it as one, yes
23:24:59 <salpynx> hmm, that seems like a more promising avenue. All the talk about loops and conditionals didn't seem like the main obstacle. The Z3 article was an interesting addition to the wiki, but I don't see how helped that much with bitch. CA seems worthwhile to pursue further
23:26:03 <ais523> if you can't use conditionals you pretty much have to use a ZISC, and cellular automata are about all you can manage in terms of a ZISC on a single string of bits
23:26:14 <ais523> if you don't have a separate pointer into it
23:28:10 <salpynx> There's a lot of noise on the bitch TC talk page, but it does seem like a legitimately interesting question. Glad I'm not the only one who thinks so
23:29:35 <ais523> the next problem is how to actually do the CA steps using only operations of the form a @= a << k and a @= a >> k, for constant k and @ representing and/or/xor
23:30:04 <ais523> I have a feeling that you place the bits onto the tape in a very spread-out way, and possibly use some sort of Golomb ruler to make the correct bits interact
23:31:02 <ais523> the problem being, how do you prevent the unused tape elements from interfering with the ones you want to use?
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23:34:22 <salpynx> Is there a way to prove something isn't TC? I feel it's down to the "2"ness of needing at least two registers or counters for a Minsky machine, and any number of equivalent TC formulations, you need two distinct places for some kind of manipulation, and bitch only gives you one, maybe one and a bit
23:35:05 <oerjan> i'm not sure for CAs, because they sort of ignore the halting thing
23:35:10 <ais523> if something is very low-powered, you can normally prove it sub-TC either with a state-counting argument or the pumping lemma
23:35:23 <ais523> however, for more powerful languages like PDAs and LBAs, that's much harder
23:35:46 <oerjan> for things that clearly halt, proving you can decide halting is a way
23:35:52 <ais523> if you can prove that there's something a language can't do, that normally proves it sub-TC, but it's hard to make that work
23:36:00 <ais523> oerjan: oh right, proving decidability also works
23:36:22 <ais523> although you can have a language with no explicit halt state that's still T/C (e.g. the I/D machine), you have to define some other way to observe output though
23:36:44 <ais523> normally the halt state compiles to some sort of tight loop
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23:39:51 <oerjan> <ais523> the problem being, how do you prevent the unused tape elements from interfering with the ones you want to use? <-- maybe you can place bits strategically to allow post-cleanup after each round
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23:45:09 <ais523> actually, the bigger problem seems to be the fact that you only have one bitshift per statement
23:47:17 <salpynx> Looking for bugs or unspecified helpful behaviour in the interpreters was another avenue I thought of, but is cheaty. I only tried the TIO version to get a feel for how helpful the bit shift was
23:49:29 <oerjan> <oren> *kʷos? <-- no bitcoin, settle for pie?
23:50:46 * oerjan hasn't actually looked carefully at Bitch. and is afraid of looking at the latest talk page edits.
23:52:12 <salpynx> the language stands alone and is easy enough to understand, some of the examples are probably distracting too, but the basic spec is fine
23:52:16 <oerjan> `doag share/UnicodeData.txt
23:52:17 <HackEso> 11561:2018-05-15 <oerjän> fetch share/UnicodeData.txt http://ftp.unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/UnicodeData.txt \ 11560:2018-05-15 <oerjän> ` hg cat -r 11537 share/UnicodeData.txt >share/UnicodeData.txt \ 11538:2018-05-01 <oerjän> fetch share/UnicodeData.txt ftp://ftp.unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/UnicodeData.txt \ 8622:2016-06-27 <oerjän> ` mv Unic* share \ 6553:2016-01-13 <oerjän> ` mv share/UnicodeD{*,ata.txt}
23:52:40 <oerjan> `fetch share/UnicodeData.txt http://ftp.unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/UnicodeData.txt
23:52:44 <HackEso> 2019-04-17 23:52:44 URL:http://ftp.unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/UnicodeData.txt [1797715/1797715] -> "share/UnicodeData.txt" [1]
23:53:19 <oerjan> something's apparently wrong.
23:53:24 -!- imode has joined.
23:53:55 <HackEso> Sequence '\xe2\x82\xbf' is not valid in charset 'ANSI_X3.4-1968'.
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23:54:11 <oerjan> that's been seen before
23:54:44 <HackEso> Sequence '\xe2\x9b\x84' is not valid in charset 'ANSI_X3.4-1968'.
23:54:51 <HackEso> [U+26C4 SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW]
23:55:19 <HackEso> Sequence '\xe2\x9b\x84' is not valid in charset 'ANSI_X3.4-1968'.
23:55:31 <oerjan> i cannot quite remember if that used to work.
23:57:58 <oerjan> maybe they haven't updated that file.
23:58:16 <oerjan> but putty shows the character just fine :(
00:04:13 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/file/tip/bin/multicode
00:04:27 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/file/tip/bin/unidecode
00:06:19 <HackEso> Sequence '\xe2\x82\xbf' is not valid in charset 'ANSI_X3.4-1968'.
00:06:58 <HackEso> LANG= \ LANGUAGE= \ LC_CTYPE="POSIX" \ LC_NUMERIC="POSIX" \ LC_TIME="POSIX" \ LC_COLLATE="POSIX" \ LC_MONETARY="POSIX" \ LC_MESSAGES="POSIX" \ LC_PAPER="POSIX" \ LC_NAME="POSIX" \ LC_ADDRESS="POSIX" \ LC_TELEPHONE="POSIX" \ LC_MEASUREMENT="POSIX" \ LC_IDENTIFICATION="POSIX" \ LC_ALL=
00:07:11 <HackEso> LANG= \ LANGUAGE= \ LC_CTYPE="POSIX" \ LC_NUMERIC="POSIX" \ LC_TIME="POSIX" \ LC_COLLATE="POSIX" \ LC_MONETARY="POSIX" \ LC_MESSAGES="POSIX" \ LC_PAPER="POSIX" \ LC_NAME="POSIX" \ LC_ADDRESS="POSIX" \ LC_TELEPHONE="POSIX" \ LC_MEASUREMENT="POSIX" \ LC_IDENTIFICATION="POSIX" \ LC_ALL=
00:07:50 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure there used to be something nz-ish there...
00:07:58 <HackEso> LANG=C \ LANGUAGE= \ LC_CTYPE="C" \ LC_NUMERIC="C" \ LC_TIME="C" \ LC_COLLATE="C" \ LC_MONETARY="C" \ LC_MESSAGES="C" \ LC_PAPER="C" \ LC_NAME="C" \ LC_ADDRESS="C" \ LC_TELEPHONE="C" \ LC_MEASUREMENT="C" \ LC_IDENTIFICATION="C" \ LC_ALL=
00:08:18 <HackEso> Sequence '\xe2\x82\xbf' is not valid in charset 'ANSI_X3.4-1968'.
00:08:23 <HackEso> Sequence '\xe2\x82\xbf' is not valid in charset 'ANSI_X3.4-1968'.
00:08:53 <HackEso> Sequence '\xf0\x9f\x90\x91' is not valid in charset 'ANSI_X3.4-1968'.
00:09:09 <oerjan> `` LC_CTYPE=en_US.UTF-8 multicode ₿
00:09:10 <HackEso> U+20BF BITCOIN SIGN \ UTF-8: e2 82 bf UTF-16BE: 20bf Decimal: ₿ \ ₿ \ Category: Sc (Symbol, Currency) \ Bidi: ET (European Number Terminator)
00:10:17 <oerjan> fizzie: HackEso's default locale is no longer nz-ish and that breaks unicode stuff
00:10:38 <oerjan> `` LC_CTYPE=nz_.UTF-8 icode ₿
00:10:39 <HackEso> /hackenv/bin/`: line 5: warning: setlocale: LC_CTYPE: cannot change locale (): No such file or directory
00:10:54 <oerjan> `` LC_CTYPE=en_US.UTF-8 icode ₿
00:11:05 <oren> now someone is contacting the guy who originally designed Calibri?
00:11:25 <oerjan> i was trying to edit the line into the nz version, didn't know the full format, then left the line in irssi
00:11:29 <oren> it's not that big a deal
00:14:01 <oerjan> oren: anyway, found out why `unidecode ₿ wasn't working, locale has become unset.
00:15:35 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: sorry for my connection).
00:15:43 <oerjan> `` LC_CTYPE=en_NZ.UTF-8 icode ₿
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00:15:56 <oerjan> hm it's still there. or at least not erring out.
00:21:35 <esowiki> [[Mov]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61272&oldid=43770 * Salpynx * (+26) /* References */ Wayback archive of this mov paper, via [[Talk:Z3]]
00:36:48 <shachaf> i,i #define CASE break; case  #define DEFAULT break; default
00:44:57 <ais523> is «switch(i) { break; }» valid syntax?
00:45:03 <ais523> my guess is yes but it produces a warning?
00:45:29 <ais523> `! c switch(4) { case 4: puts("Hello, world!"); break; }
00:45:36 <ais523> `! c switch(4) { break; case 4: puts("Hello, world!"); break; }
00:45:48 <ais523> `! c switch(4) { puts("Unreachable!"); break; case 4: puts("Hello, world!"); break; }
00:45:57 <ais523> I guess `! c doesn't show warnings anyway
00:46:03 <shachaf> clang has a warning with -Weverything
00:46:22 <shachaf> warning: 'break' will never be executed [-Wunreachable-code-break]
00:46:32 <shachaf> But that warns about lots of things I don't care about.
00:47:47 <ais523> gcc -Wall -Wextra -O3 warns about unreachable code at the start of a switch statement, but not about unreachable break statements in that position
00:48:33 <shachaf> Maybe I'll just start using this.
00:48:44 <ais523> here's my test: https://tio.run/##VYo9C8IwFEX3/IpnXVIwItjJiLObo3N8iW3wNZF8WEH6141BJ4d7OfdwUfSIpSytQ8rawD4mbf16ODDrEozKOv7wVrfwYgBxsgkH3v0WwCUYdZMVUUUD3e4r7zlF3hwNkV/B5APpRdPK//9cE0zKwcFGsrmUN15J9bGIsyKqbZ4pqCJO2w8
00:48:56 <shachaf> I could #define Case break; case and #define OrCase case, and then forbid the string "case"
00:49:05 <shachaf> And similarly for default.
00:49:40 <ais523> gcc and clang both have enablable warnings about fallthroughs without an appropriate comment
00:50:18 <shachaf> OK, but the code with breaks still looks ugly.
00:52:28 <shachaf> gcc on godbolt doesn't print any warnings for your code.
00:52:35 <shachaf> With those flags, at version 8.3?
00:52:42 <shachaf> I don't see the tio.run compiler output.
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00:54:01 <ais523> in the "Debug" section
00:54:06 <ais523> only there isn't any with this code
00:54:25 <shachaf> Oh, you mean it warns for non-break code.
00:54:25 <ais523> if you put a statement before the first break;, you'll see compiler warnings there
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01:02:18 <fizzie> oerjan: It might have something to do with the changes I made while setting up the IRC_* environment variables.
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01:02:44 <fizzie> oerjan: There was something special about the locale-setting, something like it not being part of the Bitbucket'd code but a local customization instead.
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01:04:43 <HackEso> [U+00E4 LATIN SMALL LETTER A WITH DIAERESIS]
01:04:55 <fizzie> I guess I never noticed because unidecode is explicitly UTF-8.
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01:08:23 <fizzie> Oh, right: it has a fallback.
01:09:39 <fizzie> So it's explicitly UTF-8 except when the Python version's unicodedata.name is unable to decode the character, in which case it falls back to bin/singlecode, which is a wrapper around bin/multicode, which is locale-aware.
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01:11:05 <fizzie> ais523: Favourite switch trick: replacing `if (x == 4) foo();` with `switch (x) case 4: foo();`.
01:11:31 <fizzie> A non-block switch body just looks odd.
01:17:58 <HackEso> LANG= \ LANGUAGE= \ LC_CTYPE=en_NZ.UTF-8 \ LC_NUMERIC="POSIX" \ LC_TIME="POSIX" \ LC_COLLATE="POSIX" \ LC_MONETARY="POSIX" \ LC_MESSAGES="POSIX" \ LC_PAPER="POSIX" \ LC_NAME="POSIX" \ LC_ADDRESS="POSIX" \ LC_TELEPHONE="POSIX" \ LC_MEASUREMENT="POSIX" \ LC_IDENTIFICATION="POSIX" \ LC_ALL=
01:18:08 <fizzie> oerjan: I just set LC_CTYPE for now, I don't remember how it used to be.
01:45:12 <oerjan> fizzie: looks like it was most except LC_ALL : https://esolangs.org/logs/2018-06-02.html#lIc
01:46:15 <fizzie> I think that probably means LANG was set explicitly.
01:46:51 <fizzie> `` env -u LC_CTYPE LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 locale
01:46:52 <HackEso> LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 \ LANGUAGE= \ LC_CTYPE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_NUMERIC="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_TIME="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_COLLATE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MONETARY="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MESSAGES="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_PAPER="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_NAME="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_ADDRESS="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_TELEPHONE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MEASUREMENT="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_IDENTIFICATION="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_ALL=
01:47:01 <fizzie> That looks about the same.
01:47:08 <fizzie> Let's swap it to that then.
01:47:16 <HackEso> #!/bin/sh \ export LANG=C; exec bash -O extglob -c "$@" | rnooodl
01:47:44 <HackEso> LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 \ LANGUAGE= \ LC_CTYPE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_NUMERIC="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_TIME="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_COLLATE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MONETARY="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MESSAGES="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_PAPER="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_NAME="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_ADDRESS="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_TELEPHONE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MEASUREMENT="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_IDENTIFICATION="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_ALL=
01:48:11 <oerjan> i guess ``` is some evidence for it not having been more than LANG
01:48:31 <fizzie> Well, I also remember it only setting one variable.
01:49:18 <fizzie> (But I couldn't relocate the original HackEgo stuff anywhere to check.)
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02:37:50 <shachaf> Man, this Case thing is great.
02:47:26 <ais523> what do people use titlecase for in C, anyway?
02:48:29 <shachaf> And also for these keyword macros.
02:48:41 <shachaf> I also have Struct/Union/Enum
02:49:11 <shachaf> And "cast" and "global" which are just defined to be nothing. Maybe I should make the case consistent.
02:50:22 <shachaf> Also enum values for some reason? Probably Haskell-derived.
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03:44:44 <oerjan> b_jonas's habit of linking entire week logs from the wiki + the case insensitivity issue in IE i've mentioned before means i cannot easily check whether his anchors are right :(
03:46:21 <oerjan> (on single day logs i usually manage to find the highlighting by paging down a bit)
03:47:04 <shachaf> The issue is that IE can't find the anchor if there's another one that's case-insensitively equal?
03:47:11 <esowiki> [[BANCStar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61273&oldid=61199 * Oerjan * (+1) /* Implementation */ Fix bug (presumably)
04:00:43 <oerjan> shachaf: one that's earlier, yes
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04:26:41 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61274&oldid=61244 * A * (-176) /* List of candidates */
04:28:03 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61275&oldid=61270 * A * (+115) /* [Ongoing] Compilation to Home Row by User:Helen and User:A */
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08:17:18 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61276&oldid=61267 * A * (+156)
08:17:51 <esowiki> [[Volatile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61277&oldid=60906 * A * (+60) /* Number tricks */
08:18:00 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61278&oldid=61276 * A * (-711) Blanked the page
08:18:17 <esowiki> [[User talk:Helen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61279&oldid=61250 * A * (-1604) Blanked the page
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08:20:52 <esowiki> [[Works in progress]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61280&oldid=61157 * A * (-16)
08:22:26 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61281&oldid=61275 * A * (-15) /* [Unsuccessful] Compilation to Z3 derivative by User:A and User:Helen */
08:23:59 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61282&oldid=61281 * A * (+7) Comment out a wrong attempt(because the space for this page is valuable)
08:25:02 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61283&oldid=61282 * A * (-427)
08:49:08 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61284&oldid=61197 * Orisphera * (+42) Added an idea.
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09:14:35 <wob_jonas> b_jonas's habit of linking entire week logs => ah, sorry. that's because I search in those. I should probably translate the urls to single-day logs.
09:15:15 <wob_jonas> although if the case-insensitivity really produces bugs in a browser you use, then perhaps you should replace the browser or modify the logs pace.
09:23:36 <oerjan> i'll have to replace the browser eventually.
09:23:59 <oerjan> and the log anchors are supposed to be permanent.
09:25:44 <wob_jonas> oerjan: true. you can have multiple anchors at the same place, but the DOM for the mothly archives is already big, so there's a cost for that.
09:26:02 <shachaf> oerjan: You can probably write a short script to scroll to an anchor case-sensitively in IE.
09:26:08 <wob_jonas> you could also use a different browser (like a text editor) just for this purpose, without changing the normal browser
09:26:10 <shachaf> I'd write it but I don't have access to IE.
09:26:58 <wob_jonas> does this depend on the version of IE?
09:32:07 <oerjan> the version is the latest.
09:34:45 <oerjan> what i usually do is look for the automatically highlighted text, which is fast enough in the daily logs.
09:35:09 <wob_jonas> wait, so that one works, only the anchor doesn't?
09:35:19 <shachaf> Oh, the highlighting works, right.
09:36:02 <shachaf> oerjan: What if you type "document.querySelector('#lIc').scrollIntoView()" into the JavaScript console?
09:40:04 <shachaf> 18:45 <oerjan> fizzie: looks like it was most except LC_ALL : https://esolangs.org/logs/2018-06-02.html#lIc
09:40:16 <shachaf> Hmm, that wasn't a monthly link or a b_jonaslink.
09:41:57 <wob_jonas> shachaf: I think that means that the LANG env-var was set, which is the default for locale facets where the corresponding env-vars are set, but the locale program shows the effective locale for those facets.
09:42:05 <HackEso> bash: loacle: command not found
09:42:06 <HackEso> LANG=C \ LANGUAGE= \ LC_CTYPE="C" \ LC_NUMERIC="C" \ LC_TIME="C" \ LC_COLLATE="C" \ LC_MONETARY="C" \ LC_MESSAGES="C" \ LC_PAPER="C" \ LC_NAME="C" \ LC_ADDRESS="C" \ LC_TELEPHONE="C" \ LC_MEASUREMENT="C" \ LC_IDENTIFICATION="C" \ LC_ALL=
09:42:22 <wob_jonas> ``` export LANG=de_DE.utf8; locale
09:42:23 <HackEso> locale: Cannot set LC_CTYPE to default locale: No such file or directory \ locale: Cannot set LC_MESSAGES to default locale: No such file or directory \ locale: Cannot set LC_ALL to default locale: No such file or directory \ LANG=de_DE.utf8 \ LANGUAGE= \ LC_CTYPE="de_DE.utf8" \ LC_NUMERIC="de_DE.utf8" \ LC_TIME="de_DE.utf8" \ LC_COLLATE="de_DE.utf8" \ LC_MONETARY="de_DE.utf8" \ LC_MESSAGES="de_DE.utf8" \ LC_PAPER="de_DE.utf8" \ LC_NAME="de_DE.utf8" \ LC_
09:42:25 <shachaf> I didn't read the logs or anything about that line except the link.
09:43:14 <oerjan> shachaf: hm that javascript worked, but _not_ the corresponding for b_jonas's link.
09:43:32 <wob_jonas> as for LC_ALL, that's both an ovverrider env-var that you rarely use, and the key in the setlocale function to set or get the locale for all facets, and when you get it that way, you get a string that encodes the setting for each locale facet
09:45:18 <oerjan> shachaf: the one in BANCStar
09:45:37 <oerjan> wob_jonas: fizzie already solved the LANG problem
09:45:50 <wob_jonas> oh, you mean THAT link. I should replace that.
09:45:53 <oerjan> but ``` explicitly selects LANG=C so it still won't work for that
09:47:26 <esowiki> [[BANCStar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61285&oldid=61273 * B jonas * (+2) /* Implementation */
09:47:44 <shachaf> oerjan: What does it do on the b_jonaslink?
09:48:14 <shachaf> Also what does document.querySelectorAll('#lHPb') print?
09:48:50 <wob_jonas> what's all this fancy querySelectorAll thing?
09:49:02 <oerjan> shachaf: complains in norwegian about the scrollIntoView property not existing (possibly because the querySelector returns NULL, the message is ambiguous)
09:49:25 <wob_jonas> I thought you just document.getElementById("IHPb"), which, mind you, also is a "new" javascript DOM function in that I wrote code back before it existed, but still
09:50:10 <wob_jonas> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Document/getElementById
09:50:15 <oerjan> oh hm i may have replaced it wrong, let me try again
09:50:30 <shachaf> Oh, yes, that's better. I was going to use querySelectorAll earlier.
09:50:39 <shachaf> Anyway who even knows about web APIs?
09:51:02 <wob_jonas> shachaf: I have links to documentation about them, and wrote a short javascript function at least once.
09:51:32 <wob_jonas> that was lots of years ago, when browsers were very different
09:51:44 <wob_jonas> so I cared about portability to browsers that are now very ancient
09:52:12 <oerjan> shachaf: it actually worked without All, i had just accidentally capitalized the L in the anchor :P
09:52:28 <oerjan> (because i edited it by hand)
09:52:49 <shachaf> But you should use wob_jonas's thing.
09:52:57 <shachaf> You can tell wob_jonas is a wob expert.
09:53:14 <wob_jonas> this terrible ancient code was that => https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=841827
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09:59:46 * oerjan saves the js snippet in a ridiculous place
10:00:53 <wob_jonas> in the wisdome? on the logs website itself?
10:01:36 <oerjan> no, in my Scratch.hs file
10:01:50 <oerjan> because it's almost always open.
10:01:55 <shachaf> oerjan: You can make a bookmark with "document.querySelector(location.hash).scrollIntoView()" or something like that.
10:02:02 <shachaf> And then just click on that?
10:29:13 <fizzie> I could just add something like that on the page. I was just assuming you wouldn't need any scripting to scroll to the location.
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10:34:11 <wob_jonas> yes, that is a reasonable assumption
10:36:02 <HackEso> 7 is one third of the half of the answer. Also a somewhat popular reformed Borg drone.
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11:17:59 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61286&oldid=61283 * A * (+323) /* Bitch is probably Turing-incomplete */
11:19:45 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61287&oldid=61286 * A * (+65) Add my signature
11:20:58 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61288&oldid=61287 * A * (-7) /* No, it might be */
11:21:59 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61289&oldid=61288 * TuxCrafting * (+334)
11:23:37 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61290&oldid=61289 * A * (+304) /* Bitch is probably Turing-incomplete */
11:24:30 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61291&oldid=61290 * A * (+2) /* Bitch is probably Turing-incomplete */
11:27:07 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61292&oldid=61291 * A * (-322) Let User:TuxCrafting focus on the next comment
11:28:58 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61293&oldid=61292 * TuxCrafting * (+386)
11:30:25 <esowiki> [[Z3]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61294&oldid=61230 * A * (+63)
11:35:13 <esowiki> [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61295&oldid=61249 * A * (-9) /* Impossible */
11:38:37 <esowiki> [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61296&oldid=61029 * A * (-436)
11:40:54 <fizzie> I guess maybe it could be because it's a <div id="x"> and not an old-fashioned <a name="x"> that it's jumping to.
11:44:43 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61297&oldid=61293 * TuxCrafting * (+468)
11:45:00 <fizzie> Also I should've made the line ids all lowercase. :/
11:46:09 <fizzie> It's not like they're all that long anyway.
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12:24:14 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61298&oldid=61274 * A * (-651) bitch is not worth featured.
12:27:40 <FireFly> either <a name=""> or id="" should work with anchor links
12:28:00 <FireFly> though I might be missing context here perhaps
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13:00:24 <fizzie> FireFly: The context is that it all works on many browsers, with the exception of IE, where (AIUI) the scrolling doesn't work and the anchors are considered case-insensitive. Actually, I guess those might be the same problem? I haven't paid too much attention either.
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13:16:31 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61299&oldid=61297 * A * (-367) /* Bitch is probably Turing-incomplete */
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13:46:48 <esowiki> [[Laundry shop]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61300 * A * (+93) Created page with " [[Category:2019]] [[Category:Languages]] [[Category:Unimplemented]] [[Category:Stack-based]]"
13:52:47 <esowiki> [[Laundry shop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61301&oldid=61300 * A * (+453)
13:53:15 <esowiki> [[Laundry shop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61302&oldid=61301 * A * (+41)
13:54:21 <esowiki> [[Laundry shop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61303&oldid=61302 * A * (+90) /* Syntax */
13:54:38 <esowiki> [[Laundry shop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61304&oldid=61303 * A * (-50) /* Syntax */
13:54:48 <esowiki> [[Laundry shop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61305&oldid=61304 * A * (-55) /* Hello, world! program */
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15:11:54 <esowiki> [[User:TuxCrafting]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61306&oldid=61194 * TuxCrafting * (+516)
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17:04:18 -!- b_jonas has set topic: for #esoteric: Welcome to the international stock market for esoteric programming language invention, implementation, ignorance, innovation, and integration! | https://esolangs.org | logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf.
17:04:31 <b_jonas> do we want that old version of wisdom.pdf in the topic by the way?
17:08:06 <kmc> happy World Amateur Radio Day!
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17:44:13 <esowiki> [[User:Singingbanana]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61307&oldid=57634 * Singingbanana * (-1)
17:58:50 <esowiki> [[Fastlane]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61308 * TuxCrafting * (+4311) Created page with "== Introduction == Fastlane is an esoteric language created by [[User:TuxCrafting]] that has a peculiar way of doing flow control by controlling the "speed" of the instructio..."
18:01:06 <esowiki> [[Fastlane]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61309&oldid=61308 * TuxCrafting * (+108) categorize
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18:04:53 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61310&oldid=61193 * TuxCrafting * (+15) add fastlane
18:05:37 <esowiki> [[User:TuxCrafting]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61311&oldid=61306 * TuxCrafting * (+15) here too
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00:01:31 <kmc> what about it particularly?
00:02:02 <b_jonas> little random stuff all the time, whenever I read or watch anything about america on the internet
00:02:24 <b_jonas> like how they have keyholes mounted such that the cut part of the key faces up, rather than down
00:03:53 <oerjan> logically, it's only because you're biased to think hungary is normal
00:06:04 <fizzie> Something that surprised me here is that all apartment doors open towards the inside, while in Finland they all open towards the outside. (Well, "outside", I mean the staircase/corridor, but outside of the apartment anyway.)
00:06:38 <oerjan> <fizzie> FireFly: The context is that it all works on many browsers, with the exception of IE, where (AIUI) the scrolling doesn't work and the anchors are considered case-insensitive. Actually, I guess those might be the same problem? I haven't paid too much attention either. <-- yep, it scrolls, but to the first case-insensitive match
00:06:39 <HackEso> This wisdom entry had to be removed due to a DMCA takedown notice.
00:07:05 <shachaf> oerjan: Did the workaround work?
00:08:20 <fizzie> oerjan: I see. I did consider setting up a second set of non-case-sensitive anchors, using those "by default" (as in, for the links you get when you click on the nickname), and then including the old "l..." anchors only in older pages that may or may not have been linked to before. But that seems like a bit of a bother.
00:08:27 <oerjan> fizzie: i'm pretty sure opening towards the outside is a fire safety requirement at least in norway. there was a very famous church fire where lots of people died because they didn't.
00:09:04 <fizzie> oerjan: Public buildings I think do it here too, but private apartment exterior doors are different.
00:09:38 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grue_Church_fire
00:11:40 <fizzie> Internet seems to have a bunch of articles about this, but no conclusive answers.
00:11:47 <fizzie> "Why do front doors open out in Sweden?"
00:12:50 <fizzie> They suggest it's because you get less snow inside when the door opens outwards.
00:14:01 <fizzie> There's a lot of these odd little "it's mostly arbitrary, and they just do it differently here" things.
00:15:34 <b_jonas> fizzie: exactly. like how in some strange places, even in Europe, light switches are at waist height, not at shoulder height.
00:18:55 <oerjan> hm my light switches are waist height.
00:19:30 <fizzie> The ones here are sort of chest-height.
00:19:32 <pikhq> Uh, since when are light switches anywhere near shoulder height?
00:19:44 <pikhq> Yeah, that's about chest height.
00:20:10 <pikhq> Bit lower than that, but above waist height.
00:20:26 <pikhq> Light switches here are kinda at... convenient to operate with hands height?
00:22:01 <oerjan> hungarians always use their noses hth
00:22:14 <oerjan> very practical when carrying something.
00:22:24 <fizzie> Another surprise: kerbside collection of trash.
00:22:42 <lambdabot> *** "kerb" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
00:22:42 <lambdabot> n 1: an edge between a sidewalk and a roadway consisting of a
00:22:42 <lambdabot> line of curbstones (usually forming part of a gutter) [syn:
00:23:01 <fizzie> Back in Finland I don't think that happens anywhere, it's always a bin of some sort.
00:23:15 <fizzie> Here is just piles of bags on the streets.
00:24:34 <oerjan> i think here christmas trees are just put on the curb next to the bin, as a special case once a year.
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00:25:09 <oerjan> they may have been more lenient about it before started charging people based on their bin size
00:25:32 <fizzie> I guess "kerbside collection" might also mean that thing where you have your own house with a driveway and a smaller bin where it meets the street, which does happen in Finland too, especially in less urban areas.
00:26:14 <fizzie> But here it's bags on the pavement where pedestrians walk.
00:27:05 <b_jonas> bins are usually used here, with certain exceptions
00:29:06 <oerjan> where i live now has underground containers, which may not have been such a good idea because the one for paper is clearly undersized.
00:29:26 <b_jonas> oerjan: oh, I've seen those in France, and also some in Sweden
00:29:53 <oerjan> and then the garbage truck comes and lifts up the whole thing
00:30:06 <fizzie> Are these those round things?
00:30:10 <b_jonas> lifting up happens here too, but not from underground
00:30:51 <fizzie> You get them in Finland too, for some reason especially harbours.
00:30:58 <fizzie> Haven't seen any here.
00:31:36 <fizzie> The "Molok®-waste containers"
00:31:50 <oerjan> i thought they were cubical but i may not have been paying attention. on top there's a token-triggered automaton to open it
00:31:59 <fizzie> With a "Genuine and original Deep Collection® method".
00:32:24 <fizzie> https://www.molok.com/
00:32:44 <fizzie> I'm sure there are others too, and looks like Molok has cubical ones as well.
00:34:54 <fizzie> I'm not even sure the ones I've seen are genuine Molok products, but my father calls all of them that anyway.
00:35:48 <fizzie> In fact I didn't know it was a brand, I always thought the name was some sort of reference to Moloch.
00:36:14 <fizzie> Not quite sure how that would work, mythologically speaking.
00:38:04 <fizzie> (It's a Finnish company so makes sense I'd've seen them there.)
00:40:37 <oerjan> i've seen moloks elsewhere in down (i found the name amusing because moloch)
00:44:00 <oerjan> from google images i conclude there are way too many brands.
00:46:43 <fizzie> I once borrowed a van from Melkisedek Oy. The hand brake didn't work, and instead of the owner's manual there was a Bible in the glove box.
00:46:56 <fizzie> On the other hand, it was very cheap.
00:50:42 <oerjan> ah searching on the local garbage collection website found a picture https://trv.no/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/nedgravd_container--800x600@2x.jpg
00:51:44 <oerjan> that's exactly the same
00:53:39 <oerjan> i think melkisedek at least was a supposedly good guy
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08:48:52 <esowiki> [[Fastlane]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61312&oldid=61309 * TuxCrafting * (+2764) add tc proof
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10:48:53 <esowiki> [[User talk:Helen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61313&oldid=61279 * Ais523 * (+1604) Undo revision 61279 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]]): please do not blank other users' talk pages
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12:04:56 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61314&oldid=61298 * A * (+651) Undo revision 61298 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]])
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12:08:18 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61315&oldid=61314 * A * (+107) /* List of candidates */
12:12:41 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61316&oldid=61315 * A * (+12) /* List of candidates */
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15:08:21 <lambdabot> EGLL 191450Z AUTO 06008KT 010V090 9999 NCD 23/04 Q1028 NOSIG
15:25:25 <lambdabot> LOWI 191520Z VRB03KT 9999 FEW070 22/M01 Q1025 BECMG 10008KT
15:25:39 <int-e> ... the M01 is kind of impressive.
15:26:17 <int-e> Though apparently that corresponds to 27% humidity. I expected less.
15:26:48 <int-e> (Hmm, no. That's different data: 21.4°C and 1.6°C dewpoint.)
15:42:35 <fizzie> dpcalc.org says 22% RH for 22/M01.
15:44:38 <rain1> http://blog.zarfhome.com/2019/04/what-is-zil-anyway.html
16:05:19 <zzo38> I have not programmed in ZIL or Inform, but I know Z-machine programming and have made a few implementations of Z-machine. I have also hand optimized a subroutine in Zork I once (from only the assembly language code), but do not remember what it was. I also wrote the "Tricky Document", which describes many tricks and optimizations for Z-machine code, many of which are not used as far as I know.
16:09:48 <rain1> the tricky document is cool, i like that
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16:20:30 <zzo38> Somehow I have a piece of a ZIL code in my computer. Since I know Z-machine programming I can guess what it is doing; it seems to be capitalizing a room name to display in the status window. One line says <SET N </ <WINGET 1 ,K-W-XSIZE> ,GL-SPACE-WIDTH>>; WINGET is an instruction specific to YZIP, so presumably this is YZIP code. (Also, presumably the compiler would optimize out the SET instruction; the DIV instruction can set the variable directl
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16:33:18 <esowiki> [[AT]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61317 * IQBigBang * (+1386) Created page with "<big>(Note: This page is currently being made, please wait a while.)</big> '''AT''' is a stack-based functional minimal postfix one-dimensional language created by User:IQB..."
16:33:43 <esowiki> [[AT]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61318&oldid=61317 * IQBigBang * (+4)
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18:33:19 <zzo38> Will a 410 response to HTTP requests for the favicon file cause clients to not try to request the file every time?
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19:09:27 <zzo38> If my character (Ziveruskex) spit poison do you think it is sense if someone who does not have red blood may be resisted or immune? Once a drider was immune. I think a spider has blue blood, isn't it?
19:15:54 <b_jonas> spiders use poison themselves, so maybe that's why they're immune
19:16:41 <zzo38> But I think it is a different poison probably
19:18:06 <b_jonas> oh yeah, spiders are not immune
19:18:16 <b_jonas> because there are cannibal spiders
19:18:28 <b_jonas> also http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/monstrousSpider.htm doesn't say they're immune
19:20:39 <b_jonas> also I'm re-reading Jules Verne's "La Jangada", and at one point it tells that a tribe of natives fight with their blowpipe projectiles tipped with curare poison, and describes the effects of curare and how it's made
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20:39:44 <HackEso> smlist 497: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale
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22:41:19 <oren> techincally humans have poison
22:43:11 <oren> IIRC human bites on other animals get infected very frequently
22:43:31 <zzo38> OK, but still it is a different poison than the other one
22:48:15 <zzo38> Do you know what is supposed to do in NNTP to indicate in response to a POST command the difference of rejecting a article because it is malformed or rejecting a article due to the server being temporarily unable to write to the database?
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23:05:54 <zzo38> Can there be something like OpenID with SASL that can then be used without a webpage? To support that any implementation may be in use and is not tied to any specific implementation
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23:22:55 <kmc> oren: I wouldn't call it poison if it's another creature doing the infection and not a chemical
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23:33:24 <oerjan> it occurs to me in the current girl genius arch that it would be very convenient right about now if someone has happened to bring a bit of water from the Dyne.
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23:54:04 <shachaf> zzo38, oerjan: What is Black-Johansen text packing?
23:57:11 <zzo38> shachaf: The algorithm is described in this document: http://zzo38computer.org/zmachine/doc/tricky.txt
23:59:19 <zzo38> I can also explain how text is encoded in Z-machine programs. It is encoded as a series of 5-bit characters, where 1 and 2 and 3 mean together with the next 5-bit character selects a "frequent word" to emit, while 4 and 5 are shifts.
00:00:43 <zzo38> The initial shift state is 0, where 4 is a temporary shift to state 1, and 5 is a temporary shift to state 2. In state 1 or 2, the 4 and 5 are permanent shifts; the same code is permanent to its own state and the other one is to state 0. Code 0 is always a space. Codes 6-31 meanings depend on the shift state; in state 2, code 6 is a ASCII escape and is followed by two more 5-bit codes.
00:02:45 <zzo38> Infocom never used permanent shifts. Their documentation says to use a permanent shift if there are two characters from the same shift state, but that tends to be worse than not using permanent shifts at all.
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03:17:58 <zzo38> shachaf: Does that explain what you wanted to know?
03:29:53 <zzo38> ("Johansen" does refer to oerjan, because they helped me with it.)
03:36:13 <shachaf> Well, I thought it was either oerjan or Ørjan.
03:40:04 <oerjan> can be hard to tell sometimes.
03:40:29 <oerjan> it's definitely not Pål Ørjan, he'd be more likely to cooperate with kmc.
03:54:18 <oerjan> which apparently cannot be underscored enough.
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05:18:12 <oren> baba is you is a great game!
05:19:49 <shachaf> That's what I've been saying!
05:21:18 <zzo38> Maybe later after Free Hero Mesh is enough that it is possible to try to use it, then you can see if you are able to make anything with it that is similar to Baba Is You, or if maybe not.
05:27:01 <shachaf> Can you use Free Hero Mesh to make The Revenge of Megazeux?
05:27:54 <kmc> some of the BIY levels are really hard ;__;
05:29:43 <zzo38> What would be Revenge of Megazeux? If it is like MegaZeux, then probably not; it doesn't meet the requirements: that it is played on a rectangular grid of objects (there may be multiple objects at a location), with the state changing only deterministically by a function from the current state and key code to either the new state or a win or loss.
05:30:22 <shachaf> I think it's like Megazeux or maybe like the revenge of Megaboz
05:30:37 <shachaf> Do you like The Revenge of Megaboz?
05:31:25 <zzo38> I don't know of Revenge of Megaboz. MegaZeux is played on a rectangular grid, but does not use the required state changing function.
05:32:15 <shachaf> The Revenge of Megaboz is also called Zork Zero.
05:32:17 <zzo38> O, I found Revenge of Megaboz; it is Zork Zero: The Revenge of Megaboz, it look like.
05:34:04 <zzo38> There is a screenshot, I can see they have a compass at the top like I did in xyzabcde2 also (although mine is made only from text)
05:34:11 <shachaf> Do you like _Spider and Web_?
05:35:37 <zzo38> I have played before but do not remember all of them now
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06:33:11 <zzo38> Do you know if awk specifies the order of evaluation of an expression?
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09:39:38 <fizzie> oerjan: Re underscores, usually I just restart it to get rid of them, but now I'm afraid it would no longer work, because some of the Ruby things it uses had stopped working.
09:40:40 <fizzie> I'm hoping I'll finish the reimplantation before it goes down next time, though that doesn't feel all that likely.
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10:05:46 <fizzie> ...reimplantation is probably something slightly different than what I meant.
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17:35:23 <Sgeo_> `slist MEAT or CANDY?
17:35:24 <HackEso> slist MEAT or CANDY?: Taneb atriq Ngevd nvd Fiora Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
17:39:10 <b_jonas> `learn A circle has no end
17:39:12 <HackEso> Learned 'circle': A circle has no end
17:39:14 <b_jonas> `learn A circle has no end.
17:39:16 <HackEso> Relearned 'circle': A circle has no end.
17:39:47 <b_jonas> my hon. and learned friend fungot, do you plan to visit your relatives on Easter?
17:39:48 <fungot> b_jonas: man. it is just another waste. do you like it.
17:43:41 <kmc> yesterday I heard Finland on amateur radio.
17:43:47 <kmc> but I didn't manage to get a contact
17:43:56 <kmc> I did get a 10,000 km contact to eastern Russia though
17:44:42 <b_jonas> is this still in the 200 MhZ frequency band?
17:52:52 <kmc> last night I was on 7.074, 10.136, and 14.074 MHz
17:53:13 <kmc> which are the standard frequencies for the FT8 digital protocol on 40, 30, and 20 meter bands respectively
17:57:19 <kmc> the distance record for VHF is short of that, and getting anywhere close would require extremely favorable atmospheric conditions and good equipment http://www.arrl.org/files/file/WA50-Standings/Distance_Records_10Dec2018.pdf
17:57:41 <kmc> whereas on HF, i was able to do this with a pretty basic transciever and a crappy wire antenna
17:58:54 <kmc> people also bounce VHF signals off the moon
17:59:12 <kmc> I don't know what the record is there
17:59:29 <kmc> and there are satellites that act as amateur radio repeaters, but that's cheating as far as distance records go
18:00:40 <kmc> HF depends on the conditions of the ionosphere, which in turn depends on the sunspot cycle, which is at a minimum now. but there is still plenty you can do especially with weak signal modes like FT8 or good old morse code
18:01:28 <kmc> Morse is a very low bandwidth, low symbol rate (or can be, anyway) mode and therefore you can make a very sensitive receiver which picks out just that signal and very little of the surrounding noise
18:02:04 <kmc> to do extremely long distance on extremely low power, people have done extremely slow morse code ("QRSS"), up to one minute of transmission for a single dot!
18:02:23 <kmc> naturally this is encoded and decoded by computer because it's tedious to sit there for hours holding down a button
18:03:41 <kmc> before computers, morse code stations would sometimes transmit messages from punched tape, and record onto paper tape with a pen actuated by the radio rceeiver. this was mostly done to allow very fast transmission (time is money!) and not very slow, but same principle could apply.
18:03:58 <kmc> if you go to the historic KPH radiotelegraph station in Point Reyes, California, you can see this equipment still in use
18:05:57 <kmc> it was one of the first radiotelegraph stations, built in the 1920s mainly for ship-to-shore communication (which is why it's on the coast)
18:30:04 <b_jonas> I haven't seen such a morse transmitter, but I have seen a working telex terminal (not in production use, but in a museum) with a fast tape reader, so it can transmit and print characters faster than anyone could type on the keyboard.
18:31:08 <b_jonas> And I have also heard of the very low bandwidth morse transmissions, which were used for cable telegraph under the Atlantic for a decade or two before vacuum tubes were invented to amplify the signal right inside the undersea cable.
18:31:53 <b_jonas> Radio telegrpahy was also very hard back then, for the exact same reason: you need vacuum tubes to modulate the signal.
18:40:51 <kmc> for undersea cables they used a very clever device called a mirror galvanometer
18:41:14 <kmc> which is kind of like a normal analog ammeter but the needle is replaced with a tiny mirror
18:41:29 <kmc> onto which you shine a light
18:41:38 <kmc> so a very small deflection of the needle is "amplified" by moving the reflected spot of light a much larger distance
18:41:47 <kmc> essentially using a long lever arm with zero mass.
18:42:37 <kmc> for the earliest longwave radio transmissions they used electromechanical generators to produce the radio waves
18:42:40 <kmc> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexanderson_alternator
18:43:14 <kmc> well no, for the *earliest* they used spark gap transmitters, but those produce crazy amounts of broadband RF noise and can't be used for anything other than on-off
18:43:44 <kmc> so their 'damped waves' were replaced by 'continuous wave' transmissions (the acronym CW survives today as the ham jargon for morse code; hams love jargon for jargon's sake and it's often more than 100 years old in origin)
18:44:14 <kmc> back then it was believed that longwave was the best way to do long distance, because it diffracts around the curvature of the earth
18:44:37 <kmc> shortwave was believed to be useless and given to the amateurs to play around with, they subsequently discovered ionospheric reflection and suddenly shortwave became very important
18:44:56 <kmc> of course, 'shortwave' is still 10,000 times longer than a lot of frequencies in use today.
18:47:33 <kmc> there is still one working Alexanderson alternator, they run it once or twice a year https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexanderson_Day
18:48:21 <kmc> only 17.2 kHz... you can receive that with an antenna direct into a sound card
18:48:43 <kmc> 17 km wavelength
18:53:01 <esowiki> [[TOWCBL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61319&oldid=58899 * ShareMan * (-5662) Deleted Page
18:55:22 <kmc> . o O (hm, I guess 17 is close to the square root of 300)
19:00:21 <b_jonas> kmc: I read up on this on occasion of a certain poem, and the history is interesting, even if I only found out about part of it and missing other parts
19:00:50 <kmc> which poem?
19:01:54 <b_jonas> https://chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/47171973#47171973
19:02:05 <b_jonas> "The Secret of the Machines" by Kipling
19:02:47 <kmc> ah kipling
19:05:29 <b_jonas> it mentions radiotelegraphy from Europe to America, which confused me a bit given how early he's written that
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19:34:32 <rain1> >The value of BB(1895) is known to be independent of ZFC
19:37:29 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[TOWCBL]]": Author request: blanked by original author, no intervening edits
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19:45:42 <kmc> rain1: https://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=2725
19:45:45 <kmc> guess they lowered the bound
19:47:08 <rain1> i dont 100% understand how its possible that the value of the function can be independent
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19:48:54 <kmc> I think it's a consquence of Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem?
19:49:06 <rain1> https://web.archive.org/web/20100204093058/http://www.fantasticmetropolis.com/i/division/full/
19:49:08 <kmc> like, a turing machine can't decide the truth of every statement of ZFC
19:49:28 <kmc> I think you can use a similar paradox / diagonal construction
19:49:30 <kmc> but i'm not sure
19:49:35 <kmc> I guess one of us could read the paper
19:50:58 <rain1> without reading the paper
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20:29:54 <ais523> I think it's implausible to prove that BB(n) is independent of ZFC for some n; you might well find a program of size n that's independent of ZFC, but how can you prove that there isn't a busier beaver of the same size?
20:31:12 <rain1> well if BB(n) in independent so is BB(n+1)
20:32:57 <rain1> im not sure what is meant by a busier beaver
20:33:49 <rain1> I guess it's just one that takes more steps to halt
20:35:20 <ais523> the value of BB(n) only depends on the behaviour of the slowest program with size n, not on the behaviour of any of the others
20:35:40 <rain1> https://googology.wikia.org/wiki/User_blog:Wythagoras/A_good_bound_for_S(7)%3F
20:36:54 <rain1> the trick is to search for a contradiction in ZFC
20:37:24 <rain1> let P be a program that does this, if ZFC is consistent it diverges if ZFC is inconsistent it halts after h steps
20:38:08 <rain1> so can we say that proving BB(|P|) = n for some numeral n is independent of ZFC?
20:38:53 <ais523> oh right, you wouldn't be able to prove a specific value for BB(n) in ZFC if ZFC were consistent
20:38:58 <ais523> because doing so would prove that ZFC were consistent
20:39:29 <ais523> OTOH, if ZFC is actually inconsistent, there's no problem
20:40:20 <rain1> its amusing that you can prove exists n, BB(|P|) = n
20:40:42 <ais523> that's a very philosophical question
20:47:59 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, from https://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=2725 I get it's a proof conditional on ZFC being consistent
20:48:20 <b_jonas> the machine halts iff it finds a proof that ZFC is inconsistent, and it searches the entire space of proofs effectively
20:49:20 <b_jonas> not the golfed program that is
20:49:30 <b_jonas> but it does something similar, and it's expected to not halt
20:50:09 <ais523> if ZFC is inconsistent, does that imply it can prove everything? or does it have some sort of safety valve against that?
20:50:42 <b_jonas> this is classical logic, so if it's inconsistent, then it proves everything
20:50:48 <zzo38> The use of sizeof(string literals) in C is useful with macros. I think they might also be useful with macros if you can also put a string literal followed by a constant in brackets and treat the result also as a constant.
20:51:20 <zzo38> Also that you can put string literal next to each other in C is useful with macros, too.
20:51:34 <b_jonas> zzo38: I think you can do that in modern C++
20:55:57 <b_jonas> http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20190420.html something seems wrong in Bobadventures comic. there's a new comic page posted, but no image.
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01:31:26 <zzo38> I almost finished writing my NNTP server software; now I will just test a few things. Are you going to use this software too?
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04:02:48 <zzo38> Does any program for PC with CGA set the width to 64 columns in order to allow faster scrolling?
04:16:07 <zzo38> Can I make it in Linux so that a user has a permission to read and write a file but not to delete it?
04:18:36 <zzo38> (I want to prevent it from being deleted so that it is not recreated with incorrect permissions.)
04:22:18 <zzo38> It seem the sticky bit might help. But will SQLite work correctly if it fails to delete the WAL file?
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05:35:32 <zzo38> Now the NNTP is available.
05:35:41 <zzo38> Now you can see if it is good, perhaps.
05:36:37 <shachaf> Why is text rendering so complicated?
05:45:06 <zzo38> Because they make a mess with it, mostly. They make it complicated even when it should not need to be.
05:46:42 <shachaf> How would you make it not complicated?
05:47:29 <zzo38> Well, it depend what you are trying to do it with; omit the parts that are unnecessary for your use.
05:48:08 <zzo38> For typesetting I think what TeX does is suitable. For screen text, the X core text mechanism is usually sufficient.
05:48:19 <shachaf> I want to make a program with a GUI.
05:48:29 <shachaf> That means people might use all sorts of languages and things.
05:50:21 <zzo38> Yes, you should then consider right to left as well as left to right, and marks to add on top and that stuff, but other than that you should probably just to avoid the other complicated stuff, since you will not need them. Even in a GUI program, it depend on the program, what you need it to do.
05:50:49 <zzo38> One text rendering system will not work for everyone, and if you try it will just be complicated and messy and won't always work properly.
05:51:41 <shachaf> What if I want to support Arabic?
05:52:03 <zzo38> Then you should add the right to left mode
05:52:26 <shachaf> Right to left is the easy (?) part of supporting Arabic.
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06:21:40 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Zane * New user account
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06:30:31 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61320&oldid=60987 * Zane * (+222) /* Introductions */
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12:28:59 <b_jonas> "<zzo38> Can I make it in Linux so that a user has a permission to read and write a file but not to delete it?" => yes. put the file in a directory where the user does not have write permissions to the directory, but has execute permissions.
14:15:08 <HackEso> De is the counterpart to code, often called the header.
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15:13:50 <HackEso> Any regular who gives the slightest Rogue One spoiler shall be hunted down in real life and have their intestines removed through their eye sockets. Members would not be exempt if they existed, which they don't.
15:14:00 <b_jonas> hppavilion: is that still active?
15:24:29 <HackEso> rise of the skywalker? ¯\(°_o)/¯
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16:25:22 <HackEso> I'm sorry, #esoteric has regulars, not members. Who told you about members? There are definitely no members here, and you wouldn't be allowed to know about them, anyway.
16:26:55 <HackEso> ~&al?\~&ar ~&aa^&~&afahPRPfafatPJPRY+ ~&farlthlriNCSPDPDrlCS2DlrTS2J,^|J/~& ~&rt!=+ ^= ~&s+ ~&H(-+.|=&lrr;,|=&lrl;,|=≪+-, ~&rgg&& ~&irtPFXlrjrXPS; ~&lrK2tkZ2g&& ~&llrSL2rDrlPrrPljXSPTSL)+-,
16:28:31 <b_jonas> myname: Ursala is a language that is supposedly non-esoteric, in that one person, its creator, uses it for real stuff
16:29:06 <b_jonas> you know, sort of like blsq, which is also only used by its creator, but that does qualify as an esoteric language
16:29:12 <b_jonas> stupid traditions making these distinctions
17:09:36 <arseniiv> is it morally ok if I abused lambdabot’s @tell outside this channel?
17:10:29 <arseniiv> (if it works with someone not joined here; I didn’t check yet)
17:12:35 <HackEso> regular expression? ¯\(°_o)/¯
17:29:02 <fizzie> `` zcat /usr/share/man/man1/dc.1.gz | nroff -mandoc -rLL=999n -rLT=999n 2>/dev/null | sed -e 's/\./.\n/g;s/\x1b\[[^m]*m//g' | grep 'Assuming that'
17:29:03 <HackEso> Assuming that (UCHAR_MAX+1) is 256 (as it is on most machines with 8-bit bytes), the sequence KSK0k1/_1Ss [ls*]Sxd0>x [256~Ssd0<x]dsxxsx[q]Sq[Lsd0>qaPlxx] dsxxsx0sqLqsxLxLK+k could also accomplish this function.
17:29:11 <fizzie> (That Ursula snippet reminded me of that gem.)
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17:37:36 <esowiki> [[User talk:Helen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61321&oldid=61313 * Helen * (-481)
17:39:28 <oerjan> <fizzie> ...reimplantation is probably something slightly different than what I meant. <-- i barely even noticed hth
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18:22:25 <HackEso> wisdom/pike//Pike is an interpreted language that got sort of forgotten among the four big mainstream p-languages (perl, python, ruby, php).
18:22:57 <oerjan> BRAAAAAAAINS also ichor
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18:25:28 <oerjan> <arseniiv> (if it works with someone not joined here; I didn’t check yet) <-- they will only be told if they speak in a channel where lambdabot also is, and if they're not in one they might be very confused much later when they do
18:33:12 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61322&oldid=61299 * Helen * (+2029) /* Alternative memory structures */ Added a section on alternative memory structures
18:34:03 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61323&oldid=61322 * Helen * (+4) /* Alternative memory structures */ Small formatting error
18:42:06 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61324&oldid=61323 * Helen * (+23) /* Loading the value of a cell */ Small fix to loading algorithm
18:59:00 <HackEso> Like the shorter and more familiar strings of stringed musical instruments, the cable of a space elevator has a natural resonant frequency.
19:02:04 <b_jonas> my hon. and learned friend fungot, when will you fund building a space elevator?
19:02:04 <fungot> b_jonas: about his hat dirty. an old factory lost two! i would say you came up here that is not much happens.
19:04:38 <oerjan> i can understand fungot would be reluctant to fund another space elevator if they've already lost two
19:04:38 <fungot> oerjan: what the hell is that? my, that is a smart mouth you have. it plays a role in the outcome of the kids' game session.
19:05:09 <oerjan> fungot: and yours is dirty tdnh
19:05:09 <fungot> oerjan: and so it would continue. time to get this way rude hunger is so ill-mannered it would be a life that i guess you have inadvertently left your room. you of course.
19:05:24 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck* ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
19:06:37 <fungot> Selected style: ss (Shakespeare's writings)
19:07:03 <oerjan> fungot: prithee be more polite, wilst thou?
19:07:03 <fungot> oerjan: 1.warder. who's there?
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19:11:53 <fungot> kmc: lear. come, come, you fnord fogges, drawne by the fnord
19:12:02 <kmc> hmm, did shakespeare coin the word fnord?
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19:35:41 <zzo38> What is the frequency of a space elevator?
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19:42:55 <b_jonas> zzo38: of the style that's made of impossibly tough material, we can't really say, because we don't have such a material so we don't know its properties
19:46:04 <b_jonas> for the one made of particles being continuously shot up and fall down, the frequency is probably the reciprocial of the time it takes for each particle to go a full circle, in order of magnitude, so I'd guess between a minute and an hour
19:54:13 <zzo38> Do you like my new NNTP service? It was set up yesterday, so there are no messages so far
19:55:19 <b_jonas> I'm still too young for NNTP
19:55:31 <b_jonas> I didn't use usenet when I was younger, and don't feel like starting now
19:55:39 <b_jonas> we just had mailing lists and web forums
19:55:50 <b_jonas> and also mailing list mirrors of newsgroups and web mirrors of newsgroups
19:57:47 <zzo38> It is not Usenet, but is Unusenet. Also, I implemented a POSTQUIT command for convenience of users who are not using NNTP software; you can prepare your message in another file, with POSTQUIT on the first line and a dot by itself on the last line, and then just send it. If there is an error it will immediately terminate and not try to interpret the rest of your message as commands.
20:02:26 <zzo38> (Also, it is Y2K compliant. The old Usenet wasn't Y2K compliant.)
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21:11:08 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61325&oldid=61324 * TuxCrafting * (+352) oops
21:28:27 <zzo38> I was not engaged in NNTP and Usenet myself, actually. Only recently I implemented it.
21:34:11 <fizzie> Fun Usenet fact: Finland had two competing Usenet group hierarchies, "finet" and "sfnet".
21:47:35 <zzo38> What do they have now?
22:04:26 <fizzie> I think "sfnet" shut down not too long ago. It was managed in vaguely the same way the big 8, so you couldn't just create groups there; "finet" is more like alt.* in that respect.
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22:24:30 <b_jonas> my hon. and learned friend fungot, how many battles of beer do you have on the wall?
22:24:31 <fungot> b_jonas: husband. thank you. i thank you. my lady would not lose him for more than fifty years. in 1180, however, set them free. after a fnord upon her, not leaue her token: she is sphericall, like a forked radish, with a wofull ballad made to his mistresse eye-brow. then, tell us e'en now, that strew the greene lap of faire king richard, ratcliffe, louel.
22:40:52 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61326&oldid=61325 * Helen * (+375) /* Bitch is probably Turing-incomplete */ Apologies for unclearness
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23:32:44 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Rous * New user account
23:43:29 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61327&oldid=61320 * Rous * (+79)
23:43:58 <esowiki> [[Test esolang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61328 * Rous * (+33) Created page with "<script> alert("1234"); </script>"
23:45:48 <esowiki> [[Test esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61329&oldid=61328 * Rous * (-33) Blanked the page
23:58:32 <b_jonas> what is the spacex launch thing doing?
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00:36:02 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Test esolang]]": test page, blanked by author
00:49:03 <b_jonas> ``` hg cat -r3351 wisdom/ursala
00:49:04 <HackEso> ursala ~&al?\~&ar ~&aa^&~&afahPRPfafatPJPRY+ ~&farlthlriNCSPDPDrlCS2DlrTS2J,^|J/~& ~&rt!=+ ^= ~&s+ ~&H(-+.|=&lrr;,|=&lrl;,|=≪+-, ~&rgg&& ~&irtPFXlrjrXPS; ~&lrK2tkZ2g&& ~&llrSL2rDrlPrrPljXSPTSL)+-,
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03:59:15 <shachaf> Is the C preprocessor an esolang?
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04:19:37 <kmc> shachaf: I don't think it has enough complexity personally
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05:07:27 <zzo38> I think that Ziveruskex and Strixan cannot wear a helmet is an advantage in the current situation in the game so far, even though there is a disadvantage too (you cannot add extra protection).
05:07:35 <shachaf> Today I abused the C preprocessor: http://slbkbs.org/tmp/fmt.txt
05:09:05 <zzo38> What is the fmt.h file?
05:11:13 <zzo38> I have not seen the implementation in fmt.h
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05:15:44 <shachaf> Yes, the implementation is terrible.
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07:46:56 <oren> unicode allows me yto write my name vertically
07:47:15 <shachaf> I think I just won't implement combining characters.
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11:50:49 <b_jonas> so there's a third repeating holiday called "mother's day"?
11:51:50 <b_jonas> there's the one of communist origin on --03-08 every year, the other one on the first sunday of month --05, and I just found that the last sunday of month --06 also is one
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14:44:03 <b_jonas> tar should have a shortcut option for --no-same-permissions --no-same-owner
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14:50:00 <b_jonas> or I should make a wrapper
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16:54:51 <fizzie> b_jonas: "Third"? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother%27s_Day#Dates_around_the_world
16:57:03 <fizzie> The one here is properly called "Mothering Sunday", on the 4th Sunday of Lent.
16:59:00 <b_jonas> fizzie: well, technically my mother's birthday and my grandmother's birthday also count
16:59:41 <b_jonas> yeah, that lists several dates
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17:19:37 <kmc> this must be convenient if you have three mothers
17:19:51 <kmc> or celebrate the day for anyone who is /a/ mother
17:20:16 <kmc> ... sometimes I think it's the only job I could be good at. but that's probably alarming, wishful thinking
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18:18:20 <b_jonas> I have one mother, but I also have a grandmother, and it's customary to celebrate both on mother's day.
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00:22:56 <zzo38> How to program in GNU make so that depending which target is selected it will use different options for compiling the C codes?
00:24:51 <b_jonas> zzo38: you add makerules, with a target, dependencies, and a body, where most of the body can be a few make variables
00:27:49 <fizzie> You can do variable assignment with "target ... : VAR = value", as in https://www.gnu.org/software/make/manual/make.html#Target_002dspecific
00:28:15 <fizzie> (It also gets propagated to prequisites.)
00:28:39 <zzo38> OK, thank you that will help
00:28:52 <b_jonas> fizzie: oh nice, I have never used that
00:29:11 <b_jonas> that's better because then you don't need to write the body
00:29:29 <b_jonas> the body can come from a single wildcard target, you only write the target and deps and the variable
00:29:48 <b_jonas> but of course writing a body isn't complicated either
00:31:12 <fizzie> Well, the body won't set make variables.
00:31:20 <fizzie> "A variable definition in a “rule context” which is indented by a tab as the first character on the line, will be considered part of a recipe, not a make variable definition, and passed to the shell."
00:31:41 <b_jonas> the body will contain the full command, except most of it is abbreviated with make variables
00:31:53 <b_jonas> note that make variable definitions can contain other make variables
00:32:02 <b_jonas> references to them, even references to $@ and $+
00:33:00 <b_jonas> but you don't even need that, you can just write a body like $(CC) $(CFLAGS) -lcustom-for-this-rule -Dcustom-for-this-rule -o $@ $+
00:33:45 <fizzie> Right, but you can't make that compile foo.o from foo.c differently depending on whether you're building "make zing" or "make zong".
00:33:48 <b_jonas> you could use a specific variable instead of $(CC) $(CFLAGS), or even multiple ones, one for each different type of rule
00:34:00 <b_jonas> you mean depending on the top level target?
00:34:15 <fizzie> Well, that's how I interpreted "depending which target is selected".
00:34:22 <fizzie> Maybe it didn't mean that.
00:34:31 <b_jonas> that's one I don't really want to do, because it would mess with the whole point of Make where it doesn't rebuild targets that are already present depending on mtimes
00:34:48 <b_jonas> I'd give different names to the targets then, possibly in different directories
00:35:26 <fizzie> That's kind of a problem with target-specific variables as well, except even more so, because if you have two targets (with different target-specific variable assignments) both depending on foo, it's not clear which variable values get used.
00:36:05 <fizzie> So, yeah, maybe it's better in that case to arrange things so that you build "foo-zing.o" and "foo-zong.o" differently.
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02:24:50 <esowiki> [[Symbolic Python]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61330&oldid=60520 * Cortex * (+145)
02:26:16 <esowiki> [[Symbolic Python]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61331&oldid=61330 * Cortex * (-6) /* Random hex digit */
02:53:34 <zzo38> I think I figured out how to do it, I will have to see if it work (I don't use make for my own programs, but was modifying one that does)
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04:05:52 <esowiki> [[Armok]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61332&oldid=46470 * Prof Apex * (+30) /* True Hello World! */ Add code blocks
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07:23:20 <esowiki> [[User:Total Vacuum]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61333&oldid=61200 * Total Vacuum * (+123) /* ideas for names */
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09:21:18 <oerjan> hichaf. it's about 40 minutes too early to respond in kind.
10:05:04 <myname> we are in the same timezone, i guess
10:06:08 <oerjan> <b_jonas> so there's a third repeating holiday called "mother's day"? <-- norway's is on the second sunday of february hth
10:07:33 <int-e> I read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother's_Day the other week... such a mess.
10:07:59 <oerjan> i am assuming we don't do it in may because it's usually packed with other celebrations.
10:08:04 <int-e> (Okay, "read" is an overstatement.)
10:09:59 <oerjan> of course nowadays people also tend to celebrate valentine's day so the timing no longer seems as good.
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10:11:55 <myname> there are people celebrating valentine's day?
10:12:42 <int-e> Well, all you need for a celebration is an occasion.
10:13:14 <int-e> Cynical me (aka me) wants to suggest 9/11.
10:13:48 <myname> what do you want to celebrate?
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10:14:33 <int-e> myname: You're missing my point. It's the celebration that matters. Who cares what it's about? :P
10:14:34 <oerjan> myname: well at least the shops are.
10:15:13 <Taneb> myname: he's the patron saint of the plague!
10:15:21 <myname> oerjan: yeah, but valentine's day is like the worst day to go out with somebody
10:15:24 <int-e> myname: Of course personally I find Valentine's day highly offensive.
10:15:39 <oerjan> myname: because it's too crowded, i assume
10:16:20 <oerjan> of course if it _also_ coincides with mother's day, that gets magnified.
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11:52:40 <esowiki> [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61334&oldid=61296 * A * (+800) Weird idea of programming GNU nano
12:48:21 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61335&oldid=61316 * Helen * (-3) Fixing a minor detail about the computational class and some small spcaing+grammar changes
13:06:11 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61336&oldid=61326 * Helen * (+47) /* Incrementing */ Took out the big unhelpful message and replaced it with a disclaimer
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14:31:08 <Taneb> Has the CSS on nlab changed recently? Looks more... papery
14:49:29 <rdococ> I have a slight suspicion that Swapfuck might not be an LBA.
14:56:18 <esowiki> [[Swapfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61337&oldid=54944 * Rdococ * (+751)
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15:01:05 <orin> testing testing ◌͜◌͝◌͞◌͟◌ͣ
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15:08:40 <orin> oh, now it works
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19:08:34 <shachaf> Taneb: Yes. nlab is a paper now.
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22:43:13 <zemhill_______> web.le-basic-rush: points -10.90, score 11.28, rank 47/47
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23:19:13 <orin> https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/philippines-duterte-threatens-war-if-canada-doesn-t-take-trash-back-1.4390852
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23:36:19 <sombrero> is there somo inter definition language like Apache Thrift or Babel but for Esoteric programming languages ???
23:36:54 <sombrero> https://computation.llnl.gov/projects/babel-high-performance-language-interoperability/#page=home
23:37:43 <int-e> orin: strong language, but a valid demand.
23:39:05 <sombrero> or like Melange http://melange.inria.fr/ ...
23:40:46 <int-e> Hmm, given how fundamentally different esolangs tend to be, I'm not sure how realistic that is.
23:41:54 <int-e> I wonder what kind of Haskell code Thrift generates...
23:42:27 <HackEso> int-e: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
23:42:37 <sombrero> Just wondering about the existence of such a monster :P, but for more than two would be fine
23:43:27 <int-e> shachaf: Do you realize that that's the least offensive of all *elcomes for me? :P
23:43:43 <shachaf> Why would I want to offend you?
23:43:45 <int-e> https://thrift.apache.org/tutorial/hs <-- ah here's a taste.
23:44:03 <Hooloovoo> what is the most offensive elcome?
23:45:02 <int-e> `wElCoMe is pretty bad
23:45:05 <HackEso> iS: pReTtY: bAd: WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: <hTtPs://eSoLaNgS.OrG/>. (FoR ThE OtHeR KiNd oF EsOtErIcA, tRy #EsOtErIc oN EfNeT Or dAlNeT.)
23:45:30 <shachaf> Hmm, that one has a different behavior for people with even and odd nick lengths.
23:45:36 <int-e> shachaf: it would offend my eyes.
23:45:41 <HackEso> iS: pReTtY: bA: wElCoMe tO ThE InTeRnAtIoNaL HuB FoR EsOtErIc pRoGrAmMiNg lAnGuAgE DeSiGn aNd dEpLoYmEnT! fOr mOrE InFoRmAtIoN, cHeCk oUt oUr wIkI: <HtTpS://EsOlAnGs.oRg/>. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On eFnEt oR DaLnEt.)
23:45:51 <shachaf> That must be what you find offensive.
23:46:00 <kmc> `WeLcOmE is pretty bad
23:46:03 <HackEso> Is: PrEtTy: BaD: wElCoMe tO ThE InTeRnAtIoNaL HuB FoR EsOtErIc pRoGrAmMiNg lAnGuAgE DeSiGn aNd dEpLoYmEnT! fOr mOrE InFoRmAtIoN, cHeCk oUt oUr wIkI: <HtTpS://EsOlAnGs.oRg/>. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On eFnEt oR DaLnEt.)
23:46:29 <int-e> But since I filter colors, `relcome is just `welcome to me.
23:47:06 <shachaf> The other day someone was saying that WebAssembly is a reasonable IR for distributing portable programs that have nothing to do with the web.
23:48:25 <Hooloovoo> I'd think that something like LLVM IR would be better
23:48:31 <Cale> Things are headed in that direction... WebAssembly is the next Java
23:48:46 <Cale> I can't say that it's "reasonable"
23:48:50 <shachaf> That's not a recommendation.
23:49:07 <shachaf> Well, at least WebAssembly doesn't do garbage collection.
23:49:12 <Hooloovoo> my recommendation is to fire anyone who recommends webassembly
23:50:07 <Hooloovoo> maybe it's okay, but I've never heard anything good about it
23:50:08 <int-e> sombrero: I guess the closest thing esolang people do is write interpreters for one esolang in another.
23:50:24 <shachaf> It's surely better than asm.js
23:50:37 <shachaf> But now people are using it for things that have nothing to do with web browsers?
23:50:59 <shachaf> It seems unreasonable on the face of it.
23:51:01 <Cale> At some point, we're going to switch to using WebAssembly via GHC at Obsidian.
23:51:07 <int-e> node.js, electron... it was just a matter of time?
23:51:19 <shachaf> Electron is obviously just absurd.
23:51:25 <kmc> i can't stand those people
23:51:29 <kmc> for both technical and non-technical reasons
23:51:32 <kmc> but you already know that
23:51:35 <Cale> GHCJS is still more mature, but the WebAssembly backend has a much better shot at actually being upstreamed into GHC proper.
23:52:13 <shachaf> Well, Haskell is scow for programming anyway.
23:52:38 <kmc> i'm also caring less and less as time goes on, which is good
23:52:42 <int-e> shachaf: The main Isabelle developer is tinkering with VisualCode. :/
23:52:47 <HackEso> Scow (S-cow) is canned meat made from cows with a lisp.
23:52:49 <int-e> ... Visual Studio Code.
23:53:06 <shachaf> Whatever code GHC produces will be slow no matter what the backend is.
23:53:38 <int-e> But there's often a huge margin between slow and not fast enough. :P
23:53:55 <shachaf> also mutable state is the best
23:54:08 <int-e> unless you have a bug
23:54:24 <kmc> i wish the rust people weren't shit heads
23:54:29 <kmc> i wish they hadn't ruined open source for me
23:54:33 <kmc> but there's no going back
23:54:34 <int-e> shachaf: plus unsynchronised threads?
23:55:22 <shachaf> int-e: What are synchronized threads?
23:55:47 <int-e> shachaf: the one big lock kind of threads :P
23:56:06 <int-e> (but I had shared memory with uncoordinated access in mind)
23:56:23 <shachaf> shared memory with uncoordinated access seems fine
23:56:26 <int-e> (obviously each thread working on their own little part of memory is perfectly sane)
23:56:33 <shachaf> you can use a library to coordinate the access
23:56:51 <int-e> but certainly that wouldn't be "best" by your definition.
23:57:25 <int-e> The one that includes "memory unsafety".
23:57:37 <shachaf> I think memory unsafety is a pretty reasonable feature.
23:57:40 <shachaf> It's like Turing completeness.
23:57:52 <shachaf> Not ideal, but maybe better than the alternative?
23:59:22 <Cale> Memory unsafety is fine so long as you're not forced into using things which are unsafe just to do basic stuff all the time.
23:59:58 <int-e> I want to keep my sanity intact. Which means, sure, I may occasionally break abstractions (including managed heaps) to gain some performance, but I don't want to deal with it 99% of the time.
00:00:57 <shachaf> What's a managed heap? Garbage collection?
00:00:57 <Cale> I also want to be able to reasonably say to someone "hey, don't do that or you'll be fired"
00:02:05 <int-e> And I've certainly written Haskell code as a prototype and reimplemented it in C++ for speed after I figured out the right algorithm, for combinatorial enumerations.
00:02:19 <int-e> shachaf: Yes, GC is usually implied.
00:02:32 <int-e> That and memory safety.
00:03:03 <shachaf> Garbage collection seems pretty scow to me.
00:03:15 <shachaf> If you start with garbage collection you can't really remove it later, even locally.
00:03:21 <shachaf> It's fundamentally a global thing.
00:03:42 <shachaf> If you had local heaps with no external pointer, the argument for GC would be stronger.
00:04:50 <int-e> Hmm, isn't that covered by regions? You don't have to give up the runtime-management for that, really.
00:05:35 <shachaf> I don't think I know languages that do local GC. Probably because global pointers are great.
00:05:39 <int-e> (I'm talking in principle, not about GHC. GHC doesn't have this. It has nurseries which somewhat help, keeping scratch objects thread-local.)
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00:08:49 <int-e> AFAIUI GHC pays for thread-local nurseries by an expensive write barrier: If you update a pointer on the global heap (after evaluating a thunk) with a local object, that object will be promoted immediately.
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00:11:46 <int-e> Anyway. A partial answer for GHC is that you can allocate a pinned object for scratch space and play around with that all you like, even from foreign code.
00:20:30 <shachaf> That's not really an answer, though.
00:20:42 <shachaf> GHC still needs to stop the world for collecting the global heap, doesn't it?
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00:39:54 <shachaf> U+1F391 MOON VIEWING CEREMONY [🎑]
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01:31:50 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Snidbert64 * New user account
01:34:12 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61338&oldid=61327 * Snidbert64 * (+176) /* Introductions */
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02:40:40 <sombrero> mmm, almost I forgot it, if some want a DSL instead of a PL to tackle pixels, https://bmao.tech/PixelPlusPlus/ is a good option
02:42:50 <sombrero> ...not in the sense of Piet, lol
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03:35:35 <kmc> I'm stuck on BIY
03:35:53 <kmc> level fall-5: haunt
03:42:46 <kmc> yaay solved it
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05:20:55 <esowiki> [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61339&oldid=61334 * A * (+98) /* A (quite weird) idea about programming GNU nano, the text editor */
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12:27:42 <rain1> I find the "bag of sentences" aspect of the baba is you language fascinating
12:28:12 <rain1> the sentences are completely unordered, meaning that the same effect regardless of where they are
12:28:16 <rain1> they have the same effect*
12:28:30 <rain1> i think this would be difficult to implement
12:29:00 <rain1> maybe a good way to implement it would be with something like a logic sat solver
12:29:18 <rain1> that would ensure the effect of the rules respects the lack of ordering
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15:21:50 <fizzie> So what happens to X's if in one move you construct both "X is Y" and "X is Z" rules?
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16:39:34 <orin> fizzie: oh geez I dunno. rules can be blocked by other rules. "BaBa is BaBa" blocks "BaBa is key" for example
16:39:53 <orin> I need to play that game more
16:45:50 <int-e> fizzie: you're on to something
16:50:39 <kmc> fizzie: I'm not sure either
16:51:15 <kmc> the interesting one I learned yesterday is that 'box is text' will turn every box into the text 'box'
16:51:24 <kmc> so it's like a quotation operator
16:51:43 <kmc> admittedly not that useful because now you have no boxes left to refer to
16:56:28 <kmc> useful here though: (spoiler) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pdFaCNrdhg
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17:45:08 <int-e> kmc: have you discovered words yet?
17:48:19 <kmc> what do you mean
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17:56:04 <esowiki> [[The Genius from Kiev]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61340 * Areallycoolusername * (+2425) Created page with "'''The Genius From Kiev''' is a series of esoteric programming languages made by [[User: Areallycoolusername|Areallycoolusername]] to be the exact opposite of The Amnesiac F..."
17:57:15 <esowiki> [[User:Areallycoolusername]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61341&oldid=60982 * Areallycoolusername * (+27)
17:57:39 <esowiki> [[User:Areallycoolusername]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61342&oldid=61341 * Areallycoolusername * (+0) /* Full List of languages I Made */
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18:39:37 <rain1> fizzie: if you have X is Y is Z is W is X
18:39:50 <rain1> the result is that X becomes Y in one turn, and then Y becomes Z
18:40:29 <int-e> how about a #esoteric-baba
18:40:35 <int-e> you're spoiling all the things
18:40:58 <rain1> https://twitter.com/babaisyou_/status/1099862522075717632
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19:03:42 <rain1> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lVAFcDX4eM
19:03:50 <rain1> Raycasting engine in Factorio (vanilla 0.17) - Facto-RayO v1.0
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19:12:53 <fizzie> rain1: That's fine, but not what I was wondering about.
19:13:20 <rain1> oh sorry i misread your question
19:14:00 <rain1> did anyone have some ideas about how to implement game rules that don't care about the order?
19:15:02 <shachaf> Half the questions being asked here are spoilers.
19:15:37 <rain1> I don't see how they're spoilers
19:15:49 <rain1> none of them reference a specific level
19:16:06 <fizzie> I assume they're things you might not think of trying, that will be useful in a specific level.
19:16:08 <shachaf> The fun of the game is to figure out the rules.
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19:37:34 <HackEso> Your omnidryad saddle principal ideal golfing toe-obsessed "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty eldrazi grinch is a punctual expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it.
19:41:52 -!- oerjan has set topic: Spoiler is ban | Welcome to the international stock market for esoteric programming language invention, implementation, ignorance, innovation, and integration! | https://esolangs.org | logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf.
19:42:59 <oerjan> . o O ( should that be capitalized )
19:44:19 <int-e> hmm that's case sensitive, isn't it...
19:45:31 <oerjan> `learn BABA IS ¯\(°_o)/¯
19:45:34 <HackEso> Learned 'baba': BABA IS ¯\(°_o)/¯
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20:04:11 <kmc> rain1: I think a unification engine would do it?
20:06:08 <kmc> isn't it basically just a set of x = y rules?
20:06:15 <kmc> with no internal variables
20:06:45 <kmc> shachaf: did you say there are some nondeterministic rules?
20:11:50 <kmc> how's that work?
20:14:36 <shachaf> One instance is zhygvcyr GRYR gnetrgf naq nabgure vafgnapr vf bevragngvba bs RZCGL VF K
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21:12:18 <kmc> I haven't encountered RZCGL VF K
21:12:30 <kmc> sounds p. exciting
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21:14:10 <int-e> shachaf: did you know that there are sprites for NAAVR walking?
21:17:10 <shachaf> I didn't. Sounds like the best.
21:17:28 <shachaf> Also I have to rot13 in my head now since I'm at my phone.
21:17:53 <int-e> Though I guess that one wasn't do bad.
21:18:34 <int-e> I mean, this is my rot13 program: tr A-Za-z N-ZA-Mn-za-m... so a and n are easy :)
21:19:28 <shachaf> I played the demo a long time ago. I think ORFG was in there.
21:19:37 <shachaf> Though it may have been KEKE
21:19:39 <oerjan> just make sure you don't become so good at rot13 in your head you cannot avoid decoding it
21:21:28 <int-e> shachaf: yes, orfg was there.
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21:32:34 <int-e> . o O ( SHACHAF is YOU. )
21:32:48 * int-e didn't play the demo.
21:34:14 <shachaf> But you have information regarding the existence of orfg
21:35:48 <int-e> shachaf: it features in a level in the release, but is inaccessible as far as I can tell.
21:37:59 <shachaf> I mean the demo has KEKE IS BEST or something like that
21:38:36 <int-e> Lonely Flag is the level (rocket area)
21:39:09 <int-e> <3 there's a walkthrough so I'm not tempted to reinstall the game.
22:09:05 <kmc> i'm writing a mitm inspection tool for mosh
22:09:31 <kmc> nice thing about UDP is you can restart the MITM without restarting the client or the server!
22:09:35 <kmc> mosh just interprets it as a bout of packet loss
22:14:16 <kmc> hmm, if you index a python3 bytestring you get an int and not a 1-byte bytestring
22:14:21 <kmc> i guess that's reasonable, but it was a bit surprising
22:17:44 * kmc is slowly but surely getting her programming mojo back
22:21:34 <int-e> kmc: Hmm does that do anything useful to an attacker without knowing the underlying key? I guess timing packets is of some interest... After a brief look, learning the key itself should be hard (unless you MITM the initial ssh connection as well, at least)
22:22:04 <kmc> it could be useful for timing and packet-length analysis, although you can observe that passively
22:22:10 <kmc> and it could also be useful for fuzzing
22:22:15 <kmc> but i'm not making it for security purposes
22:22:22 <int-e> okay, just wondering :)
22:22:37 <kmc> one thing I can do with this is drop packets or add lag as desired
22:22:52 <kmc> anyway it's the first step of my crazy scheme to run mosh over long distance shortwave radio
22:23:37 <int-e> Oh you are making a proxy/tunnel in the end. :)
22:24:14 <kmc> also I will be removing the encryption to comply with ham radio rules
22:24:25 <kmc> my interpretation of the rules is that it's okay to keep the authentication tag
22:24:30 <kmc> but I expect to have people argue with me about this
22:24:38 <kmc> since armchair rules lawyering is an important part of ham radio
22:26:14 <kmc> https://i.imgur.com/ffKr7Xo.png
22:26:19 <kmc> (this is still encrypted for the time being)
22:28:55 <int-e> heh, now I'm pondering the meaning of TL9H1MPF
22:29:21 <int-e> I *think* I've figured out the "LAPTOP" part of it though. :)
22:29:48 <kmc> I think it's just some hash that is assigned when you set up windows
22:30:19 <kmc> this thing is called moshmodem
22:31:11 <kmc> because it will translate UDP packets into audio output from your sound card, and audio input from the sound card into UDP packets
22:31:30 <kmc> I'm not sure what modulation scheme to use, probably something simple and dumb at first
22:31:37 <kmc> 8-tone FSK with a start tone, or something
22:32:29 <kmc> fortunately mosh already has a checksum and handles dropped or corrupted packets
22:32:37 <kmc> but I expect to get a lot of retransmits at that rate
22:32:42 <kmc> which will reduce the already dismal data rate
22:32:57 <kmc> so I think some FEC would be called for, and modulation with better processing gain
22:33:36 <int-e> Also the first 8 bytes of the packets (sequence numbers) don't look encrypted... can you cause trouble there? But maybe not, if these numbers are part of the message authentication.
22:33:56 <int-e> It still feels wrong to have them in plain sight like that, to me.
22:34:03 <kmc> I think you can already run Mosh over AX.25, but that's a bunch of complexity and setup hassle that isn't really necessary
22:34:09 <kmc> my scheme won't involve a network stack per se
22:34:21 <kmc> int-e: it is a sequence number, which is also the nonce for AES-OCB
22:34:47 <int-e> you can estimate the lifetime of a mosh session from there.
22:39:01 <kmc> this is true
22:39:08 <kmc> you could use random nonces instead
22:39:12 <kmc> if the ocb nonce is long enough, i forget
22:39:19 <kmc> you'd still need a sequence number, but could encrypt it
22:43:58 <int-e> "a given key should be used to encrypt at most 2^48 blocks" <-- maybe not a concern for this particular use :)
22:44:20 <kmc> there's actually code in there to abort the session if you hit that limit
22:45:32 <int-e> Oh well, off to bed.
22:45:43 <kmc> ttyl int-e
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23:12:10 <kmc> "We deem it unlikely that a legitimate user will send 4 PB through a Mosh session. If it happens, we simply kill the session. The server and client use the same key, so we actually need to die after 2^47 blocks."
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04:55:59 <esowiki> [[Bur]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61343 * Zane * (+7802) Created page with "'''Bur''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] invented by Zane Porter in 2018. Bur is a simple stack-based language that features partially nondeterministic math, and no..."
05:01:16 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61344&oldid=61310 * Zane * (+10) /* B */
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07:52:10 <esowiki> [[Minic]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61345 * A * (+229) Created page with "[[Minic]] is an alternate representation of C programs created by [[User:A]]. ==Examples== ===[[Hello, world!]] program=== <pre> "Hello, world!\n");} </pre> Category:..."
07:55:21 <esowiki> [[Minic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61346&oldid=61345 * A * (+457)
07:58:46 <esowiki> [[Minic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61347&oldid=61346 * A * (+2)
08:05:03 <esowiki> [[Minic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61348&oldid=61347 * A * (+32)
08:06:08 <esowiki> [[Minic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61349&oldid=61348 * A * (+64)
08:13:15 <esowiki> [[Minic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61350&oldid=61349 * A * (+8)
08:23:27 <esowiki> [[Ecndpcaalrlp]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61351 * A * (+533) Created page with ":<i>The title of this article might as well be !@#$%^&*()_+.</i> [[Ecndpcaalrlp]] is an [[esoteric programming language]] created by [[User:Conor O'Brien]]. ==Syntax== {| clas..."
08:25:56 <esowiki> [[Ecndpcaalrlp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61352&oldid=61351 * A * (+535) /* Syntax */
08:27:11 <esowiki> [[Ecndpcaalrlp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61353&oldid=61352 * A * (+146) /* Syntax */
08:28:14 <esowiki> [[Ecndpcaalrlp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61354&oldid=61353 * A * (+18)
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08:30:21 <esowiki> [[Ecndpcaalrlp]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61355&oldid=61354 * A * (+83) /* Snippets */
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08:43:24 <fizzie> PSA: fungot outage for today. (Allegedly there's going to be some electrick kind of work here sometime in the following 8-hour window, shutting it down just to be safe.)
08:43:24 <fungot> fizzie: duk. goe take her hence
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11:41:05 <esowiki> [[Ecndpcaalrlp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61356&oldid=61355 * A * (+59) /* Implementation */
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12:53:59 <esowiki> [[Ecndpcaalrlp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61357&oldid=61356 * A * (+47) /* Implementation */
13:00:42 <esowiki> [[Ecndpcaalrlp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61358&oldid=61357 * A * (+62) /* Example programs */
13:09:40 <esowiki> [[Ecndpcaalrlp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61359&oldid=61358 * A * (+39) /* A looping counter(from 99 to 0) */
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15:55:55 <esowiki> [[The Genius from Kiev]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61360&oldid=61340 * Areallycoolusername * (+29)
15:57:02 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61361&oldid=61344 * Areallycoolusername * (+27) /* T */
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18:52:25 <fizzie> Bah, fungot outage continues. Electricity should've been back three hours ago already, but instead there was just a notice it might not get fixed today at all. :/
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19:03:49 <kmc> what happened?
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20:27:55 <esowiki> [[Bur]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61362&oldid=61343 * Zane * (+734)
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21:10:43 <fizzie> kmc: "Unfortunately, the electricians hit a stumbling block at the very last point of reinstating electricity to those apartments currently affected."
21:10:53 <fizzie> No power until tomorrow.
21:11:28 <fizzie> "They have tried a number of 24/7 emergency electrical suppliers but regrettably, none of these have the parts required in stock."
21:16:34 <fizzie> (There's also a lot of redirecting-the-blame going on. This all started with Virgin Media contractors doing some cabling, which is now alleged to have caused the initial fault in some apartments, but today's "targeted fix" just had the effect of leaving more flats without electricity.)
21:18:03 <int-e> I wonder how I would deal with it... food might actually be problematic (ordering pizza may be an option though).
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21:24:42 <fizzie> We just ate an unreasonable amount of ice cream, because it was in the freezer and wouldn't've survived.
21:25:52 <fizzie> Also I had gotten one of those cheap but pretty bright USB LED lights earlier, so that + a USB battery pack is taking care of the lighting issue.
21:26:29 <fizzie> I suspect there won't be any warm water though, so showering is bound to be... refreshing.
21:28:08 <fizzie> This place has a communal heating thing, but it relies on a "HIU" (heat interface unit, IIRC) which probably won't work without power.
21:40:55 <FreeFull> fizzie: Wow, the fix made things worse
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21:54:30 <fizzie> FreeFull: That's why we prefer rollbacks instead of fixing-forward. But I guess that's harder for hardware than software.
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01:07:41 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61363&oldid=60890 * Zane * (+309)
01:09:26 * kmc is a prepper and would be fine for 1-2 weeks at home with no power and no going out for supplies
01:11:59 <kmc> lots of water, canned and bulk food, gas-canister camp stove (outdoor use only!), various battery packs and LED lights and a zillion ham radios
01:12:14 <kmc> granted, it doesn't get very cold here, I have no way to heat the apartment as a whole
01:53:07 <Hooloovoo> how do you power the radios long-term?
01:53:39 <Hooloovoo> or is there a plan for times to use them/etc with the local hams
01:56:05 <kmc> there is not a plan regarding times, that I know of
01:56:44 <kmc> if I needed to get a message out, I would try several frequencies and repeaters that I know are popular and/or are involved with emergency stuff
01:57:01 <kmc> if I want to get an idea of what's going on, I would just scan
01:57:21 <kmc> as for power I have a variety of battery packs laying around, and some solar panels (tho most of them are in off-site storage atm)
02:03:23 <Sgeo__> When DOS games output 3d as interleaved scan lines, can I assume 1 scan line = 1 pixel?
02:10:47 <kmc> I even have a hand-crank radio, AM/FM broadcast receive only, but it has a USB power output and in *theory* I can charge one of the ham radios from it
02:10:55 <kmc> no idea how much cranking would be required
02:11:03 <kmc> it must get old
02:11:08 <kmc> (well, AM/FM and NOAA weather radio)
02:11:10 <pikhq> kmc: I'm not sure that quite counts as "prepper".
02:11:25 <kmc> because I don't have an underground bunker with 500 boxes of ammunition?
02:11:39 <pikhq> I mean, you are well prepared for an emergency, but that's not "prepped to survive for months, or the fall of western civilization"
02:11:55 <pikhq> That's more... prepped well to survive if an earthquake happens in the Bay.
02:11:57 <kmc> it's still more than most people :P
02:18:50 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61364&oldid=60891 * Zane * (+318)
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02:23:48 <Hooloovoo> Sgeo__, usually, though sometimes pixels are non-square
02:24:10 <Hooloovoo> because with CRTs, pixels can be however big the graphics card decides
02:25:41 <kmc> on B&W CRTs sure
02:26:13 <Hooloovoo> as long as you're below the dot pitch, it's fine on color CRTs too
02:26:28 <kmc> on color, I think you are still limited by the color mask
02:26:53 <Hooloovoo> right, but *most* color crts are good enough to play DOS games
02:27:06 <Hooloovoo> at least, any color computer monitors
02:28:01 <pikhq> Yeah. In principle a DOS game _could_ use whatever graphics interfaces it likes to go super high res, but in practice DOS games only went as far as 640x480 (and often less)
02:28:34 <kmc> tektronix made some interesting non-mask-based color CTRs: https://hackaday.com/2019/01/17/sharpest-color-crt-display-is-monochrome-plus-a-trick/
02:29:14 <Sgeo__> I want to convert interleaved to SBS, each row I guess alternates left and right?
02:29:14 <kmc> it's a monochrome CRT with some LCD-controlled color filters in front of it
02:29:25 <Sgeo__> If DOSBox were to be at original size
02:32:05 <kmc> tek also made storage tubes, where you draw vectors with the electron beam and they stay there through some kind of magic
02:32:28 <kmc> cool demo with an amazing retro-computing vibe https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IztxeoHhoyM
02:33:25 <kmc> these were used for CAD workstations for a time, when it was too expensive to have the computer constantly re-drawing all vectors
02:42:35 <Hooloovoo> I have a couple of the storage toobs
02:42:52 <kmc> how'd you come by those
02:43:05 <kmc> storage CRTs were also used as RAM by some *really* old computers
02:43:38 <kmc> predating core memory, predating even delay lines I think
02:43:40 <Hooloovoo> there's a display that I walk by every day with one in it
02:43:51 <kmc> or contemporary... I guess delay lines were developed for radar first
02:43:52 <Hooloovoo> I think delay lines were first, but I'm not positive
02:44:01 <kmc> ever been to the computer history museum in mountain view?
02:44:55 <Hooloovoo> no, haven't been to SF in too long
02:45:03 <Hooloovoo> I'll be in palo alto for the summer
02:46:19 <Hooloovoo> (me and/or my roommate) have a 603a and I have a 7000 series scope at my parents house
02:48:01 <Hooloovoo> there was one thing that we found which we couldn't just liberate, it's going to the LCM in Seattle
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03:28:56 <j4cbo> a friend has a tek 7000 storage scope
03:29:24 <j4cbo> with regular time base and amp modules but also a 7D02 debugger
03:35:56 <pikhq> That museum is pretty sweet.
03:36:17 <kmc> I've not been there
03:36:20 <kmc> but it sounds great
03:36:34 <kmc> there's also the Museum of Communications right
03:36:43 <kmc> I went there when I was a small child
03:36:46 <kmc> don't remember much
03:40:55 <Hooloovoo> I have a couple IRC friends who volunteer there
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09:14:59 <Taneb> That doesn't look like J
09:15:06 <Taneb> Oh, I'm thinking of dc
09:15:09 <Taneb> That does look like J
09:15:15 <j-bot> Taneb: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
09:15:27 <wob_jonas> it's just multiplications. J can do them fine.
09:15:40 <Taneb> wob_jonas: yeah, I was mixed up
09:16:18 <HackEso> Unknown option: -e \ usage: python3 [option] ... [-c cmd | -m mod | file | -] [arg] ... \ Try `python -h' for more information.
09:16:26 <HackEso> File "<string>", line 1 \ print 24*3.79 \ ^ \ IndentationError: Missing parentheses in call to 'print'
09:16:31 <Taneb> wob_jonas: python3 wants parens after print
09:16:35 <HackEso> File "<string>", line 1 \ print(24*3.79) \ ^ \ IndentationError: unexpected indent
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09:52:15 <orin> Another problem I am having with greek letters
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09:52:59 <orin> is Ϟ supposed to be curly and ϟ straight or the other way round
09:53:30 <orin> wikipedia shows one, unicode code charts show the other way
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09:55:05 <Taneb> I'd say upper case forms tend to be less curly than lower case forms, in my experience
09:56:36 <orin> yeah so that would make Ϟ the straight one
10:39:06 <orin> I am also adding ׯ
10:39:43 <HackEso> [U+05EF HEBREW YOD TRIANGLE]
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15:38:50 <esowiki> [[Talk:Revolution 9]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61365&oldid=53225 * HereToAnnoy * (-199) sorry guys i'm retarded
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18:41:02 <fizzie> There's electricity again, but the fungot box doesn't have the "turn on after recovering power" option, so fungot outage will persist until I can reach the power switch.
18:41:44 <b_jonas> what is this site? https://code-golf.io/
18:45:44 <fizzie> I don't know, but it's very J-dominated.
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18:47:18 <kmc> yay electricity
18:48:58 <fizzie> Well, according to the latest update letter "we are not out the woods yet as this is a temporary repair, however we are now in a position to have time on our side and can plan for the next stage --".
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18:49:26 <fizzie> I don't know if you can really call that "having time on our side", really.
18:50:03 <fizzie> At least to me that sort of suggests things would get better by just waiting.
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18:57:28 <kmc> perhaps "we've bought some time" would be better
18:57:58 <kmc> "time is still against us but not quite so rabidly so for the moment"
18:58:14 <kmc> I do not think the power company here would be so forthcoming about things
18:58:24 <kmc> they have more of a "fuck you" attitude
18:58:52 <kmc> a privately traded for-profit company, which exists to make dividends for its shareholders, which has a legal monopoly to provide electrical and gas service
18:59:19 <kmc> they've been fined many times for misbehavior but their only way to recoup that money is to raise rates so...
19:00:19 <kmc> they went bankrupt this year, but still paid out huge bonuses
19:00:44 <kmc> well at least it's better than Enron.
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19:15:58 <fizzie> FWIW, these haven't been from the power company, they've been from the management company for the building.
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20:28:46 <kmc> Hooloovoo: you were asking about my off-grid radio power options, here's one of them: https://imgur.com/a/PC7e00e
20:31:51 <kmc> I added an 8-port Powerpole distribution block and a Powerpole to car accessory socket cable. So I can run both of my mobile radios as well as a USB charger or other car accessory from a single battery pack
20:32:12 <kmc> that's on top of the big lead-acid batteries and solar panels
20:32:16 <kmc> which are less convenient to carry around
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20:35:08 <kmc> the box pictured weighs 3.6 kg / 7.9 lb
20:39:13 <esowiki> [[Control Character]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61366&oldid=60974 * EnilKoder * (+88)
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20:49:17 <b_jonas> do you also have a working car charger for this?
20:50:12 <kmc> not quite, not yet
21:45:01 <kmc> my first was about 1000 km, San Francisco to Phoenix, AZ
21:45:16 <kmc> but the same day I got 7,400 km to Sakhalin
21:45:34 <kmc> and a few days later 9,800 km to Tambov, Russia
21:45:40 <kmc> that's on FT8 though... easy mode
21:47:14 <kmc> wrong window
21:47:16 <kmc> but whatever
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22:19:20 <zzo38> Is there a NNTP client software using SQLite?
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22:42:56 <esowiki> [[RarVM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61367&oldid=61063 * Void * (+116) /* Implementations */
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23:01:39 <esowiki> [[BoredKat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61368&oldid=60897 * KerbalEngineer * (-191)
23:02:08 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * KerbalEngineer * moved [[BoredKat]] to [[Dimensional]]
23:02:39 <esowiki> [[Dimensional]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61371&oldid=61369 * KerbalEngineer * (-36) Blanked the page
23:03:00 <esowiki> [[KerbalEngineer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61372&oldid=60896 * KerbalEngineer * (-15)
23:03:27 <esowiki> [[Dimensional]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61373&oldid=61371 * KerbalEngineer * (+53)
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01:08:07 <ais523> suppose I have a large set of strings of distinct letters, all of which contain the same letters (i.e. they're all anagrams of each other); each is split into tiers (with letters in the same tier being consecutive within the string), and letters within the same tier can be reordered freely
01:08:44 <ais523> the aim is to do this tier-shuffling to make as many of the strings identical as possible (i.e. to have the fewest number of distinct strings afterwards)
01:09:27 <ais523> examples: "(cab)(dfe)" and "(ba)(fdce)" can eah be rearranged into "(abc)(def)" and "(ab)(cdef)" respectively, so they can both be made the same
01:10:27 <ais523> I'm trying to find an algorithm for solving this problem; is it possible to have three such strings that can pairwise be made to match, but cannot collectively be made to match? if so, it's probably NP-complete, in which case I'm looking for an algorithm to find an approximate solution efficiently
01:10:51 <ais523> (this problem actually came up during esolang development, although I suspect it'd be ontopic here even if the context were different…)
01:11:13 <ais523> I have 5638 such strings, so doing this by hand would take way too long
01:12:16 <zzo38> I don't know the answer of your question.
01:12:51 <ais523> I'd be surprised if anyone knew it already, but was hoping that someone would see a way to work it out
01:13:33 <ais523> it's easy enough to see if two lists are compatible with each other (you can convert the "must come before" relations to directed graph edges and do a topological sort)
01:19:37 <ais523> oh, bleh, it's probably NP-complete anyway, I think you can probably encode the exact cover problem in it?
01:21:36 <ais523> maybe not, our primitives are "can be placed in the same set" rather than "belongs in this specific set", which may make enough of a difference to the meaning of n to change the complexity class
01:24:47 <ais523> is "decompose a graph into a minimal number of cliques" NP-complete? at least that sounds generic enough that someone might have worked on it already
01:25:25 <ais523> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clique_cover says it's NP-complete, bleh
01:25:38 <zzo38> I found that Lynx supports NNTP just fine; you can go to nntp://zzo38computer.org/ and it will list the newsgroups and messages, and allow posting new messages to them.
01:25:58 <ais523> so unless this specific instance happens to collapse into sub-NP special case, I'll need to find an approximate solution
01:36:30 <zemhill_______> web.le-basic-rush-2: points -8.98, score 12.80, rank 44/47
01:50:44 <ais523> I wonder who that is; they've (just about) gotten onto the leaderboard, at least
01:51:05 <ais523> it seems to win, when it wins, by getting so far inside the enemy decoy setup that they don't even notice they've been infiltrated
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01:53:33 <ais523> the win against finnel is bizarre, though, it seems to be able to outrace finnel's complex offset clear with its very simple and straightforward clear /even though/ its decoys are inside finnel's offset!
01:53:40 <ais523> although it's incredibly close and quite fun to watch
01:54:10 <ais523> (that's on long sieve-polarity tapes, the other situations are more normal)
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10:44:42 <rain1> zzo38: this is cool
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12:11:23 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61374&oldid=61336 * A * (-5) Change odd subheading: it changes its opinion about Turing-completeness.
12:32:10 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61375&oldid=61335 * A * (+55) /* List of candidates */
12:37:13 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61376&oldid=61374 * A * (+62) I always felt uncomfortable when I see this.
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13:32:13 <orin> I added the new square era name ㋿ to my font
13:34:17 <orin> (if your terminal font has been updated that will appear as 令和 crammed into one space)
13:35:49 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Void * uploaded "[[File:Cube4.png]]"
13:36:23 <esowiki> [[RarVM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61378&oldid=61367 * Void * (+73) /* Jumping processes */
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13:38:45 <user24> Is there a definition of 'minor edit' somewhere?
13:39:15 <user24> Does it matter which one it is if it is my own article?
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14:01:30 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Void * uploaded "[[File:Qr process image.png]]"
14:02:08 <esowiki> [[RarVM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61380&oldid=61378 * Void * (+89) /* Jumping processes */
14:17:28 <rain1> use your own judgement
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18:53:32 <b_jonas> ais523: can the strings have repeated letters?
18:54:25 <b_jonas> ais523: "I have 5638 such strings" => how long are they?
18:55:18 <b_jonas> ais523: "is "decompose a graph into a minimal number of cliques" NP-complete?" => yes, because that's the chromatic number of the complement of the graph
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19:32:16 <esowiki> [[User:Total Vacuum]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61381&oldid=61333 * Total Vacuum * (+1)
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19:43:41 <esowiki> [[User:Total Vacuum]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61382&oldid=61381 * Total Vacuum * (+0)
19:43:53 <esowiki> [[User:Total Vacuum]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61383&oldid=61382 * Total Vacuum * (-1)
19:45:11 <esowiki> [[User:Total Vacuum]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61384&oldid=61383 * Total Vacuum * (+1)
19:45:15 <esowiki> [[Bfstack]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61385&oldid=46428 * Coates * (-1) Fixed typo
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19:55:25 <b_jonas> ais523: if you allow repeated letters, than (a)(ab)(a) can match both (ab)(aa) and (aa)(ab), but the latter two can't match
20:12:15 <esowiki> [[User:Total Vacuum]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61386&oldid=61384 * Total Vacuum * (+8)
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20:19:59 <b_jonas> ais523: I have the feeling that this might be easier if I knew matroid theory
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21:58:19 <zzo38> In order to implement x+=strlen(x) it should not be necessary to actually calculate the length of the string; you should just advance the pointer to the next zero byte. If the compiler knows what strlen() means then it should be able to optimize it, but it doesn't seem to do.
22:00:35 <fizzie> Does it do any better for x = strchr(x, '\0') then?
22:01:54 <zzo38> I don't know; I haven't tried. But they should presumably be the same thing, isn't it?
22:04:23 <fizzie> Yes, it should have the same effect.
22:04:51 <fizzie> In fact, the version of GCC I have translates `char *g(char *x) { return strchr(x, '\0'); }` into a call to `strlen`, which is kind of interesting.
22:07:34 <fizzie> I guess the logic there might be that strlen is a highly optimized implementation for locating a zero byte, while a generic strchr implementation can't be as good.
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22:13:56 <zzo38> Would something like REPNE SCASB work?
22:46:47 <lambdabot> ENVA 272220Z 09010KT CAVOK 14/01 Q1016 RMK WIND 670FT 12011KT
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00:03:38 <esowiki> [[Bitter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61387&oldid=60811 * DMC * (-1) /* Truth Machine */
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00:37:32 <ais523> I analyzed the Google Ngrams data to produce a list of bytes in UTF-8 encoded English in frequency order (\b = word boundary, Ngrams doesn't record what nature the word boundary had but it's normally a space) \betaoinsrhldcufmpg\"wyb.vkTI1ASC,xE-'MH20PBRN;LO93WDFq8G54()j67z:J\342\200U\224VYK?!X*/\302Q][Z\242&\$^\303%\260\243\251\253\273>\\\247=<\320+_|~}\240\321\250\236#\241{\274\263\204\244\255\276\261\252\223\202\201\266\256\277\265\234\@\254\235\26
00:37:33 <ais523> 270\237\264\272\305\245\222\226\357\275\271\203\267\217\233\211\210\207\257\216\215\232\246\220\214\213\231\230\205\221\225\343\227\206`\344\212\345\347\346
00:37:54 <ais523> it's interesting seeing capital letters mixed in with the lowercase like that
00:41:24 <ais523> just the ASCII from the above: etaoinsrhldcufmpg"wyb.vkTI1ASC,xE-'MH20PBRN;LO93WDFq8G54()j67z:JUVYK?!X*/Q][Z&$^%>\=<+_|~}#{@`
00:42:12 <ais523> the position of " seems to be an anomaly, presumably it's a consequence of books with lots of dialogue?
00:44:21 <ais523> b_jonas: there are constructions like (a)(b) versus (b)(a) versus (ab), so the compatibility restriction here isn't transitively closed, but that list isn't pairwise compatible (because (a)(b) isn't compatible with (b)(a))
00:45:00 <ais523> also, my 5638 strings are each reorderings of the above byte list, so no repeated characters
00:45:24 <ais523> (I'm trying to generate context-sensitive Huffman codes for English, and looking for a way to compress the resulting codebook into, ideally, less than a megabyte or so)
00:46:32 <ais523> @tell user24 normally a "minor edit" is one that doesn't change the meaning of the page, so it's things like typo fixes, formatting fixes and grammar fixes; anything which changes the meaning of what's written on the page should be marked non-minor
01:37:34 <kmc> love is defeat, love is love
01:37:43 <kmc> I played BIY on the plaaaaaaane
01:47:04 <kmc> I got to the space levels
01:47:07 <kmc> gurer ner fbzr vagrerfgvat guvatf lbh pna qb jvgu 'rzcgl'. bar guvat V'z jbaqrevat vf jurgure 'rzcgl vf chyy' vf tbbq sbe nalguvat, vg frrzf gb rssrpgviryl cerirag lbh sebz zbivat ohg gur tnzr qbrfa'g fhttrfg erfgnegvat gur yriry jura guvf unccraf
01:48:30 <shachaf> I think it only suggests restarting when nothing is you.
01:50:06 <zzo38> Hopefully it will still let you to restart even if it is not a suggestion
03:21:06 <kmc> zzo38: yes, you can restart any time
03:21:15 <kmc> and also undo by single steps
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03:28:10 <kmc> no because i'm not playing
03:28:14 <kmc> unless you mean restart my life
03:28:18 <kmc> in which case also no
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03:34:53 <HackEso> gerzytet: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
03:36:09 <gerzytet> I browse that wiki a lot. Came here because of BF joust.
03:38:12 <shachaf> ais523: This is frequency in words, not frequency in text, right?
03:38:42 <ais523> shachaf: it's frequency in text (i.e. weighted by how often the word appears in text)
03:38:59 <ais523> the source information was a list of words and their frequencies, so I extrapolated frequency in text from there
03:40:09 <shachaf> Right. I forgot that was available.
03:40:35 <shachaf> Is there a use for UTF-8 byte frequencies?
03:41:01 <ais523> yes: I'm trying to make context-dependent Huffman tables, and I'm making them predict a byte at a time
03:41:22 <shachaf> OK, obviously I should read everything you said rather than respond as I see each line.
03:41:46 <shachaf> I think kmc once asked me about something similar to this.
03:41:54 <ais523> actually compressing the resulting set of tables optimally is probably NP-complete, but I'm using a compression algo which I hope is decent enough
03:42:19 <shachaf> <kmc> shachaf: if you have 16 bytes of valid UTF-8, not necessarily starting or ending on a character boundary, and you map each byte to an element of the set K = { ASCII, Start2Byte, Start3Byte, Start4Byte, Continuation }, how many distinct values of K^16 can you create?
03:42:23 <shachaf> That's not the same problem.
03:43:08 <ais523> you have to treat some of the start and continuation bytes separately so that you don't end up, e.g. encoding a surrogate
03:43:36 <shachaf> I think the context of that problem was decoding valid UTF-8.
03:44:05 <shachaf> UTF-16 should just go away. twh
03:44:10 <ais523> well, for my use-case, I don't know that the input is valid UTF-8, and it might legitimately be invalid UTF-8, but I think that valid UTF-8 is rather more probable
03:44:22 <ais523> so invalid UTF-8 is getting longer encodings in the Huffman trees
03:44:45 <shachaf> Oh, you meant your use case. Sure.
03:46:33 <ais523> (this is another reason to work at the byte rather than character level – we don't know encodings for certain)
03:48:09 <ais523> just working with the google 1grams is data-heavy enough; I'd like to do the same sort of thing with the 2grams at some point but I don't think I have enough disk space
03:56:16 <zzo38> See if you have comments for these new Magic: the Gathering cards nntp://zzo38computer.org/doc.news.conspiracies0@zzo38computer.org
03:58:12 <ais523> "doc.news.conspiracies" is somewhere to post M:tG cards?
03:58:28 <zzo38> ais523: No; that is a message ID.
03:59:33 <zzo38> (I prepare the messages in a directory ~/doc/news and then the file is called "conspiracies0", so I assigned that as the message ID. You are not required to use this scheme for your own message IDs; it is only for my own convenience and nothing else.)
03:59:50 <zzo38> (The newsgroup name is "un2.org.zzo38computer.magic.custom")
04:00:34 <gerzytet> !zjoust little (->+>)*4(>[(+)*4[-]]+)*10000
04:00:35 <zemhill_______> gerzytet.little: points -7.55, score 14.28, rank 40/47
04:04:39 <ais523> I do, but only for communicating with Usenet
04:05:01 <zzo38> That URL works with Lynx. If you do not have Lynx, another way to download it is to connect on port 119 and enter the command: ARTICLE <doc.news.conspiracies0@zzo38computer.org>
04:21:36 <gerzytet> after some messing around, I found that this program has about the same point score (-7.52) as my rush: >+<(++-)*-1. I have no idea how that's just as effective
04:22:08 <gerzytet> I didn't think THAT many warriors would suicide
04:25:55 <ais523> gerzytet: warriors that set many decoys tend to do better on the hill, so warriors that prey on decoy-heavy strategies also tend to survive
04:26:16 <ais523> that means that decoy-light strategies will often beat a reasonable proportion of opponents, although they rarely do /very/ well
04:28:05 <gerzytet> what kind of strategies are used to counter decoy-heavy warriors?
04:29:03 <ais523> one is to try to guess the length of the tape from the opponent's decoy placement, e.g. you can assume it probably goes several cells beyond what you suspect is a decoy
04:29:40 <ais523> another is to take advantage of the time the opponent spends setting up their decoys somehow, typically getting "inside" the decoy setup without the opponent realising you have and probing around to try to find the flag
04:32:37 <gerzytet> would that second one only work if the opponent does a reverse decoy setup?
04:32:54 <ais523> yes, unless the decoys near the flag are so small that you can get past them within your probe loop
04:36:28 <ais523> fwiw, there are some programs, like ais523.margins, that do attempt to exploit the fact that many programs suicide or get stuck against an actively defended flag
04:36:37 <ais523> (margins attempts to win on tape length 10 and 11 and draw everything else)
04:38:13 <gerzytet> ok, basically what I got out of your description was: you've got one program that starts near the middle and build decoys in towards the flag, but the program on the other side jumps past using tripwire avoidance or whatever, and steamrolls past lightly defended/undefended territory
04:38:56 <ais523> yes, there are many cases of that happening on the hill (especially on shorter tape lengths)
04:39:47 <ais523> normally, there's little risk to setting up decoys on a long tape, and huge risk on a short tape (the opponent will just rule-of-nine past them), but the problem is you don't know how long the tape is in advance
04:40:07 <ais523> some programs will attempt to figure out the approximate tape length by looking for enemy decoys; that's another way that not setting decoys can gain
04:42:50 <gerzytet> wouldn't a program like that have a wait a little bit so give the enemy a chance to setup decoys, especially on shorter tapes?
04:48:57 <ais523> it can set up decoys of its own meanwhile
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09:04:21 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokTpaFa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61388&oldid=60873 * YamTokTpaFa * (+22)
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09:17:34 <esowiki> [[User:Coates]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61389&oldid=50035 * Coates * (-47) Updated
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09:21:06 <esowiki> [[KanjiCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61390&oldid=33768 * YamTokTpaFa * (+17)
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09:42:36 <b_jonas> ais523: ah right, that's a simpler example for not being transitive
09:45:39 <b_jonas> gerzytet: so are you the person who submitted web.le-basic-rush-2 to zemhill yesterday?
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12:45:31 <HackEso> Culinary tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, weetoflakes, mushrooms, nutella, and cognac.
12:47:46 <HackEso> Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Klein bottles, string diagrams, linear logic, the reals, Lambek's lemma, Curry's paradox, Stone spaces, algebraic geometry, locales, and histograms.
12:50:12 <HackEso> A universe is a poem in one stanza.
12:50:14 <HackEso> The universe was invented by Taneb as an opposing force to oerjan. Escardó proved that it was indiscreet.
12:52:31 <HackEso> Tanebventions include necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, metar, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, Italian, the grace period, the limerick, ruin, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths or tanebventions: foods. He never invents anything involving sex.
13:13:40 <HackEso> Progress has been made today. It was invented by Taneb.
13:19:40 <fizzie> A flat earth clock was pretty high up in Play Store's chart of top selling Android apps.
13:20:55 <fizzie> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.flatearthsun -- today it's showing up at position #112, which is less high up.
13:22:19 <b_jonas> http://www.rogermwilcox.com/square_earth.html
13:24:21 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61391&oldid=60913 * YamTokTpaFa * (+825)
13:28:41 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61392&oldid=61391 * YamTokTpaFa * (+473) /* Specifications */
13:31:51 <gerzytet> Question: if you were to take a language like befunge-98, and remove all the instructions that can modify/read from the program space, is the stack alone enough to maintain turing-completeness, assuming an infinite stack?
13:33:09 <fizzie> Funge-98 doesn't have just a stack, it has a stack stack.
13:33:28 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61393&oldid=61392 * YamTokTpaFa * (+274) /* Instructions */
13:36:35 <fizzie> A single stack is generally not enough to be TC, hence Befunge-93 (which has a fixed-size 80x25 playfield) isn't.
13:38:14 <rain1> presumably there are counterexamples though?
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13:48:12 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61394&oldid=61393 * YamTokTpaFa * (+1042) /* Instructions */
13:48:19 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, but doesn't befunge have a pick instruction that can reach deep into the stack using an index? hmm, let me look up befunge
13:48:41 <b_jonas> I ought to know this stuff, I nominated it as a featured article
13:49:12 <b_jonas> nope, it doesn't have a pick instruction
13:51:27 <b_jonas> yeah, what fizzie says, it has some extra "stack stack" instructions
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13:54:53 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61395&oldid=61394 * YamTokTpaFa * (+309) /* Specifications */
13:56:22 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61396&oldid=61395 * YamTokTpaFa * (+93) /* Specifications */
13:57:22 <esowiki> [[Pxem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61397&oldid=60882 * YamTokTpaFa * (+20) /* Specifications */
14:01:56 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Esolime * New user account
14:10:24 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61398&oldid=61396 * YamTokTpaFa * (+655) /* Instructions */
14:12:34 <esowiki> [[Bfstack]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61399&oldid=61385 * Coates * (-1)
14:13:22 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61400&oldid=61398 * YamTokTpaFa * (+355) /* Conditional looping */
14:15:48 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61401&oldid=61400 * YamTokTpaFa * (+79) /* Arithmetic operation */
14:17:44 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61402&oldid=61401 * YamTokTpaFa * (+270) /* Termination */
14:18:17 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61403&oldid=61402 * YamTokTpaFa * (+17) /* Conditional looping */
14:19:43 <fizzie> b_jonas: Funge-98 in fact does have a "pick" instruction as well, it's just disguised: the y "Get Sysinfo" instruction can be used to pick.
14:20:17 <fizzie> "An interesting side-effect of this behaviour is that if y is given an argument that exceeds the number of cells it pushes onto the stack, it can act as a 'pick' instruction on data that was on the stack before y was even executed."
14:20:41 <fizzie> From https://github.com/catseye/Funge-98/blob/master/doc/funge98.markdown
14:21:21 <fizzie> (It's very inconvenient, because the number of cells pushed by y is variable.)
14:22:38 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61404&oldid=61338 * Esolime * (+186)
14:25:11 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61405&oldid=61404 * Esolime * (+41)
14:25:34 <b_jonas> fizzie: but can't you use the stack in stack instructions to deal with that variability?
14:25:41 <b_jonas> really I don't understand how those stack stack instructions work
14:29:12 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61406&oldid=61405 * Esolime * (+18)
14:29:44 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61407&oldid=61403 * YamTokTpaFa * (+308) /* Arithmetic operation */
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14:38:22 <fizzie> They're pretty idiosyncratic, though you can implement a pick using them directly.
14:40:55 <fizzie> 5{1u:00p01-u5}00g is essentially "peek at cell 5", using location (0, 0) as scratch space.
14:43:47 <fizzie> ...er, not quite, thanks to the storage offset.
14:44:00 <fizzie> The storage offset is such a pain.
14:46:39 <b_jonas> fizzie: um, but gerzytet asked what you can do without using cells as storage. if you have the p and g commands to use cells as storage, then you can just use that for most of your memory, and just a few slots of stack for commands.
14:47:02 <b_jonas> you don't need braces then, you can just put the whole stack into cells then
14:47:31 <fizzie> Sure, I was just talking about picking from the stack in general.
14:48:28 <fizzie> Anyway, you can do it without the scratch space as well, because you can use u to reverse the order of topmost N cells on the stack.
14:49:18 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61408&oldid=61407 * YamTokTpaFa * (+916) /* Conditional looping */
14:50:34 <fizzie> Yes, assuming you don't need to restore a previous storage offset, 5{$$05-u000} should reverse the order of the 5 topmost cells.
14:51:47 <fizzie> Also assuming two spatial dimensions.
14:52:50 <fizzie> If the stack stack was initially ...[... a b c d e f], then 5{$$ makes it ...[... a][b c d e f], the 05-u moves the elements back with a push-pop loop resulting in ...[... a f e d c b][], and the 000} gets rid of the empty stack on top, setting the storage offset to (0, 0).
15:06:23 <j-bot> b_jonas: 0.0047625
16:04:40 <zzo38> Do some Funge-98 implementations have options to define the character coding in use for the source file? You might specify either 8-bit coding or 31-bit UTF-8 coding (this is the range specified by the Funge-98 documentation, which is far more than Unicode); you could also allow overlong UTF-8 sequences to allow line break characters to appear directly in Funge-Space. A fingerprint definition for Glk can also be made.
16:24:12 <rain1> maybe turing complete language with just a stack could be done by having the stack act like the C call stack, but also include pieces of code
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19:51:02 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Alvarito050506 * New user account
19:57:18 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61409&oldid=61406 * Alvarito050506 * (+167)
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20:37:14 <zzo38> Does any software for PC with CGA or MDA using hardware scrolling?
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20:56:42 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, Commander Keen first trilogy does on CGA, scrolls in an increment of 4 pixels which makes the scrolling a bit jittery
20:57:13 <b_jonas> great game though, especially the second one. best level design ever, where it uses coke cans and scrubs in an innovative way.
20:58:00 <b_jonas> coke cans are score items, but unlike others, they're also solid if you land on them from the above (not from the side or below); scrubs are enemy sprites that don't hurt you, climb around on walls even upside down, and you can stand on them
20:59:16 <zzo38> Hardware scrolling in low resolution graphics mode is always a multiple of eight pixels (if it is horizontal), I think. (Vertical scrolling in graphics mode would be a multiple of two pixels.)
21:00:21 <b_jonas> maybe it's eight pixels, I don't really remember
21:00:25 <b_jonas> I haven't played it for years
21:00:35 <b_jonas> you can probably find out by looking at youtube videos of its gameplay
21:08:04 <zzo38> Does any program use hardware scrolling with text mode?
21:09:55 <b_jonas> I don't know how CGA and EGA hardware work
21:10:49 <zzo38> Yes, it is possible (although only by a multiple of a character cell; fine scrolling is not possible)
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21:11:49 <zzo38> Do you have any comments of the many conspiracy cards of Magic: the Gathering cards that I posted to Unusenet recently?
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21:12:10 <b_jonas> I did find scrolling in VGA text mode, but only horizontal scrolling of one line, and on modern hardware
21:12:18 <b_jonas> I simply updated the font quickly in every frame
21:12:51 <b_jonas> I haven't looked at those cards. have you added them to the textfiles website on gopher? or have you abandonned that in favor of nntp?
21:13:10 <sombrero> PARDON THE INTERRUPTION, does someone have insider news of the Minix "issue" https://www.cs.vu.nl/~ast/intel/minix issuemi ??
21:13:58 <zzo38> I still have that file, although I intend to now use it for once the cards are actually ready, instead. Currently they have no names, and may need review; I should preferably do that first before putting them into the file, I think.
21:14:14 <zzo38> (That way they can be discussed first before being published properly.)
21:14:47 <sombrero> https://www.cs.vu.nl/~ast/intel/
21:14:51 <b_jonas> you could put them in a different file?
21:17:36 <sombrero> of the the intel-minix issue inside your Intel thing ..if you use intel
21:17:49 <zzo38> sombrero: I don't know much about Minix
21:19:00 <zzo38> b_jonas: They are in the file on the NNTP. (You do not need any special software in order to access it; I even added the POSTQUIT command to make it convenient to reply without any special NNTP software, too.)
21:20:04 <zzo38> (Simply type ARTICLE followed by the message ID with < and > around it.)
21:20:28 <zzo38> (You can also post your own ideas there, if you have your own ideas of new Magic: the Gathering cards, please!)
21:23:31 <sombrero> as a last info in this direction, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iffTJ1vPCSo , but there is no much more info in this topic
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22:42:46 <zzo38> DOSBOX has no command to set the date/time. If I add a program to do that, will it work (for the current session only)?
22:43:14 <pikhq> Where does DOSbox even get its idea of time? System local time?
22:43:44 <zzo38> That is what it seems to do
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23:08:49 <b_jonas> zzo38: dunno, ask the TASers or ais523, I think they use dosbox and set the time to manipulate randomness in DOS games
23:10:25 <zzo38> What I tried doesn't seems to work. I tried assembly language (with DEBUG), and I also tried BASIC, but in both cases, it won't set the time.
23:10:43 <b_jonas> I mean, I'm not sure about it, but it's worth a chance that they know
23:13:44 <zzo38> Maybe overriding the interrupt table will work? I don't know
23:19:28 <MDude> https://www.desmos.com/calculator/ladyv0jibb hmm
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00:59:53 <HackEso> A is one of seven villages in Norway. The BBC invented them by not understanding things on top of letters.
01:00:46 <HackEso> wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and, uh, that other one? It started with, like, an ø?
01:04:45 <gerzytet> where do the entries come from?
01:13:42 <HackEso> `learn creates a wisdom entry and tries to guess which word is the key. Syntax (case insensitive): `learn [a|an|the] <keyword>[s][punctuation] [...]
01:18:59 <gerzytet> `? learn a fungus that grows above ground, especially after rain.
01:19:01 <HackEso> learn a fungus that grows above ground, especially after rain.? ¯\(°_o)/¯
01:19:14 <gerzytet> ` learn a fungus that grows above ground, especially after rain.
01:19:15 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
01:19:20 <gerzytet> `learn a fungus that grows above ground, especially after rain.
01:19:22 <HackEso> Learned 'fungu': a fungus that grows above ground, especially after rain.
01:20:10 <gerzytet> "tries to guess which word is the key", I thought that meant it would try to guess what you're describing
01:26:34 <fizzie> It's suitably surreal to be a wisdom entry nevertheless; but the depluralization went wrong there.
01:27:01 <fizzie> `` mv wisdom/fungu wisdom/fungus # you may opt to `forget it if you wish
01:28:34 <fizzie> The full list is at https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/file/tip/wisdom if you're bored.
01:28:57 <gerzytet> I cracked myself up afterwards that it now thinks a 'fungu' is a species of fungus, so that's good enough
01:30:05 <fizzie> There's a good set of factoids about things that "are just" other things: https://hack.esolangs.org/tmp/paste/paste.15102
01:38:23 <gerzytet> `learn toilet elliot spelled backwards, without the extra l, with a t at the end.
01:38:26 <HackEso> Learned 'toilet': toilet elliot spelled backwards, without the extra l, with a t at the end.
01:40:27 <gerzytet> `learn toilet is elliot spelled backwards, without the extra l, with a t at the end.
01:40:30 <HackEso> Learned 'toilet': toilet is elliot spelled backwards, without the extra l, with a t at the end.
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01:48:36 <zzo38> You can't depluralize very well, even if the program is complicated, especially if you do not know the context. Making the plural however is more easily to do (although even then it might not be what you wanted).
01:48:41 <ais523> b_jonas: we use JPC-RR for TASing, not DOSbox
01:48:56 <ais523> there was a TAS created on DOSbox once but it was really hacky and thus possibly didn't control the date and time at all
01:50:56 <zzo38> ais523: Do you know if it would work to override the interrupt table to control the date/time? (not for TASing though; just for other purpose) (Does DOSBOX even support TSR? Even if not, it could probably be done, if overriding the interrupt table works at all.)
01:53:11 <ais523> I would be surprised if it didn't support TSR
01:53:25 <ais523> whether overriding the interrupt table would work would depend on how the game read the date and titme
01:53:42 <ais523> you can imagine programs that read the RTC chip directly without using DOS's interrupt-based API
01:53:54 <ais523> but if they're using interrupts to ask what the date and time are, overriding the interrupt table would work
01:54:26 <ais523> another possibility might be to use some sort of wrapper around DOSbox to control DOSbox's idea of the real date and time
01:56:21 <ais523> note that dates and times on files are probably taken from the filesystem, so changing the running program's or DOSbox's idea of the time will probably not change the timestamps for created files
01:57:36 <zzo38> Of course, another way would be to modify DOSbox to implement the date/time setting functions, I suppose; although then if there is a new version and they didn't merge those functions into the official version then you will have to do it by yourself instead.
01:58:37 <zzo38> ais523: If you use a disk image file then it might change the timestamps for created files (if the date/time function was even implemented at all)
01:58:42 <ais523> DOSbox doesn't seem to emulate DOS's "date" command (which I assume would be implemented by a file date.com)
02:01:03 <zzo38> The DOS function call to set the date/time doesn't work.
02:02:06 <zzo38> (I wrote a short program to do so, and it doesn't work. I also tried doing it in BASIC, and in BASIC it doesn't work either. If you type TIME$="06:00:00" and then ?TIME$ it will not remember the time setting.)
02:22:40 <gerzytet> what's with all the jokes about Taneb on the wisdom dictionary
02:25:56 <HackEso> Tanebventions include necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, metar, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, Italian, the grace period, the limerick, ruin, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths or tanebventions: foods. He never invents anything involving sex.
02:26:14 <HackEso> elliott, a rabbi, Mark Zuckerberg, James Bond. Pending approval: Shigeru Miyamoto.
02:29:06 <gerzytet> also, why does https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/file/tip/wisdom/ha have a different permission setting than any of the other files?
02:38:01 <ais523> gerzytet: I'm personally not a fan about the wisdom database, but most of the anomalies like tanebventions are originally bad jokes that then turned into running jokes and got more and more elaborate
02:39:44 <esowiki> [[User:Esolime]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61410 * Esolime * (+123) Created page with "Hi! I'm Esolime, and I make grid-based esolangs out of toys and games. I even make esophyses (esoteric physics simulators)."
02:39:56 <ais523> I prefer learndbs to contain useful information rather than jokes, but people enjoy writing joke entries more even when they aren't funny (or even comprehensible to people who don't know the context)
02:41:34 <shachaf> I only like oerjan's wisdom jokes.
02:41:38 <gerzytet> I find the absurdity of the database kinda funny
02:43:01 <ais523> we used to do quality control on the quotes by periodically picking 5 at random and deleting the worst (unless they were all good)
02:43:11 <ais523> but we aren't adding quotes nearly as quickly nowadays so that's less necessary
02:43:18 <ais523> I'm not convinced we've /ever/ done quality control on the wisdom though
02:43:28 <HackEso> 1/1:toilet//toilet is elliot spelled backwards, without the extra l, with a t at the end. \ up//Up is a direction away from the center of gravity of a celestial object. \ imperative language//Imperative languages tell you what to do. \ inverness//Inverness is a city in Scotland. The ring road isn't multiplicative. \ itymology//Itymology is the science of understanding the true meaning of a statement.
02:43:45 <shachaf> that first one is p. sketchy
02:43:48 <ais523> can I delete all five? :-D
02:44:04 <shachaf> "itymology" is such a good word, though!
02:44:52 <ais523> feel free to delete any of them
03:22:21 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61411&oldid=61284 * Esolime * (+42) /* Physics */
03:28:29 <zzo38> I do not want to delete any, but, maybe someone else might I don't know
03:33:27 <shachaf> Do you have any good opinions on graphical user interfaces?
03:34:24 <zzo38> shachaf: I think many programs should not need GUI (although in some kind of programs it can be helpful)
03:41:52 <zzo38> Working with a command-line interface or batch interface can often be faster and more useful
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07:26:44 <zzo38> Now I made a program that articles in my NNTP server can also be accessed by gopher if you know the article number, for example: gopher://zzo38computer.org/0article/2
07:28:24 <zzo38> (This server uses the same article numbers for all newsgroups; the NNTP specification seems to assume that this isn't the case but seems to allow it to be the case anyways.)
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10:01:37 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61412&oldid=61376 * A * (+430) /* Some thoughts */
10:08:09 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61413&oldid=61412 * A * (+98) Possibly no one knew anything about Lua operators except for me.
10:11:23 <esowiki> [[User:Total Vacuum]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61414&oldid=61386 * Total Vacuum * (+3)
10:13:19 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61415&oldid=61413 * A * (+131) /* Another idea */
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10:15:42 <wob_jonas> `bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20190428.html
10:15:43 <HackEso> bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20190428.html: b_jonas
10:25:34 <HackEso> a fungus that grows above ground, especially after rain.
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10:27:10 <wob_jonas> ``` set -e; cd wisdom; mv -vi fungus mushroom; sed -i "s/^/A mushroom is /" mushroom; cat mushroom; echo ok
10:27:13 <HackEso> 'fungus' -> 'mushroom' \ mushroom//A mushroom is a fungus that grows above ground, especially after rain. \ A mushroom is a fungus that grows above ground, especially after rain. \ ok
10:27:32 <HackEso> A mushroom is a fungus that grows above ground, especially after rain.
10:28:21 <wob_jonas> ais523: re dosbox ok, but I think some people do use dosbox to run some dos games still
10:28:29 <wob_jonas> although perhaps then they don't manipulate randomness by setting hte time
10:34:42 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61416&oldid=61415 * A * (+14) Did anyone fix the capitalized heading?
10:50:30 <wob_jonas> "<ais523> I'm not convinced we've /ever/ done quality control on the wisdom though" => I've done it on my own wisdom entries, deleting a lot of bad ones.
10:51:24 <wob_jonas> I also deleted a few by other people
10:51:45 <Taneb> I've wished some of mine were deleted
10:52:40 <wob_jonas> which of yourventions should we remove from the list and delete the wisdom entry?
10:53:09 <int-e> do we have fungotventions?
10:53:10 <fungot> int-e: http://neon.polkaroo.net/mhoye/ blarg/ archives/ 001207.html."
10:53:17 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
10:53:30 <Taneb> Not all of the wisdoms I added are tanebventions (in fact, I think I only added two)
10:53:44 <fungot> wob_jonas: what about getting a blank t-shirt, taking a list of lists brings the first level of this discussion, i merely offered one sentence. i wonder if a srfi on c.l.scheme!
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11:02:46 <zzo38> Why do they call them "The Air and the Song"?
11:05:13 <esowiki> [[Talk:Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61417&oldid=57415 * A * (+2024) Another proof(to be verified)
11:06:03 <esowiki> [[Talk:Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61418&oldid=61417 * A * (+0) /* A possible proof */
11:06:41 <esowiki> [[Talk:Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61419&oldid=61418 * A * (+3) grm
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12:19:30 <esowiki> [[Talk:Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61420&oldid=61419 * A * (+85) /* A possible proof */
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12:30:25 <esowiki> [[Talk:Disan Count]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61421&oldid=56725 * A * (-111) Undo revision 56725 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]])
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13:12:27 <kmc> hi wob_jonas how goes it
13:12:34 <kmc> i'm on a train
13:13:14 <wob_jonas> ais just mentioned cleaning up the wisdome, so I deleted two more of my old wisdom entries
13:13:20 <kmc> I would slightly disagre with that definition of mushrooms
13:13:31 <HackEso> A mushroom is a fungus that grows above ground, especially after rain.
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13:13:42 <kmc> because many fungi grow above ground, and most like moisture
13:13:48 <kmc> well that's ok, i'm not blaming you
13:14:05 <kmc> I would say the defining feature of a 'mushroom' in common parlance is a macroscopic fruiting body
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13:23:21 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61422&oldid=61408 * YamTokTpaFa * (-2) /* Random value */
13:24:24 <kmc> there are also lichens with macroscopic (though small) mushroom like fruiting bodies
13:24:39 <kmc> and that comes from the fungus part of the lichen, so I figure it should count as a mushroom
13:24:50 <kmc> and some slime molds do it too but those aren't fungi technically
13:25:48 <kmc> they are "protists" which just means "weird eukaryotes that we can't classify as animal, plant, or fungus"
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13:30:31 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61423&oldid=61422 * YamTokTpaFa * (+357) /* Temporary memory */
13:34:54 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61424&oldid=61423 * YamTokTpaFa * (+204) /* Operating content of file */
13:37:01 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61425&oldid=61416 * A * (-33) /* Another idea */
13:58:43 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61426&oldid=61425 * A * (+509) (Last?) Edit of an improved algorithm
13:59:54 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61427&oldid=61424 * YamTokTpaFa * (+580) /* Conditional looping */
14:00:49 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61428&oldid=61426 * A * (+149) /* Another idea */
14:06:14 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61429&oldid=61427 * YamTokTpaFa * (+314) /* Arithmetic operation */
14:08:15 <esowiki> [[Pxem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61430&oldid=61397 * YamTokTpaFa * (+2477) /* Specifications */
14:08:48 <esowiki> [[Pxem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61431&oldid=61430 * YamTokTpaFa * (-478)
14:10:19 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61432&oldid=61428 * A * (+72) /* Another idea */
14:10:20 <esowiki> [[Talk:Pxem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61433&oldid=60881 * YamTokTpaFa * (+134) /* Announcement:I'm fixing the article. */
14:12:43 <esowiki> [[Pxem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61434&oldid=61431 * YamTokTpaFa * (+39) /* History */
14:16:09 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61435&oldid=61432 * A * (+2) /* A: Home Row to bitch */
14:29:56 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61436&oldid=60966 * A * (+309) /* Batch */
14:44:14 <esowiki> [[Bfstack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61437&oldid=61399 * A * (+190) Add a proof because I am very nosy...
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14:52:28 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61438&oldid=61435 * A * (+252) /* Some thoughts */
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16:06:44 <HackEso> whatis: can't open the manpath configuration file /etc/manpath.config
16:06:50 <HackEso> /srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: monad: not found
16:06:58 <HackEso> Monads are just monoids in the category of endofunctors.
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16:46:00 <esowiki> [[Pxem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61439&oldid=61434 * YamTokTpaFa * (+666)
16:46:38 <esowiki> [[Pxem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61440&oldid=61439 * YamTokTpaFa * (+1) /* Instructions */
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17:10:24 <HackEso> olist 1162: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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21:47:34 <int-e> @tell oerjan Seems you were correct... things are finally on track for going horribly right. Probably not in the way you expected though :)
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21:52:33 <HackEso> rl: elcome o he nternational ub or soteric rogramming anguage esign nd eployment! or ore nformation, heck ut ur iki: <ttps://solangs.rg/>. (or he ther ind f soterica, ry #soteric n Fnet r ALnet.)
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23:44:17 <shachaf> Did you know that defining a macro starting with the letter E followed by an uppercase letter is undefined behavior in C?
23:45:42 <kmc> is that because of errno?
23:46:24 <kmc> so much undefined behavior
23:51:01 <pikhq> shachaf: I bet it's only undefined behavior if you include the right headers.
23:51:28 <pikhq> Which admittedly is going to be a lot of headers.
23:51:44 <shachaf> I think it's the case even if you don't.
23:58:48 <pikhq> I see no evidence of that.
23:59:26 <pikhq> I see it saying errno.h may define additional macro definitions beginning with E[0-9A-Z].
23:59:46 <pikhq> But that appears to only be reserved if you include errno.h (indirectly or otherwise).
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23:59:58 <pikhq> And since they are explicitly macros, you are safe if you use #undef first.
00:00:38 <pikhq> (#undef and replacing a macro is UB iff the macro starts with _[A-Z_])
00:03:02 <pikhq> I'm referring to the last draft of C11, FWIW.
00:03:28 <pikhq> (which is officially distinct from the actual spec, but in practice is the same damned thing)
00:03:51 <shachaf> That must be one of the things they changed.
00:04:03 <shachaf> You should pay ISO a bunch of money to make sure.
00:04:04 <pikhq> Or it could be that POSIX is different.
00:04:20 <pikhq> POSIX does like adding extra UB.
00:05:07 <pikhq> Where there's a definition I guess, but every single aspect of it is something some implementation felt free to change? :)
00:05:33 <shachaf> But also implementations were reasonable rather than malicious.
00:05:49 <pikhq> No, they were differently malicious.
00:06:11 <shachaf> Possibly incompetent, but not malicious.
00:06:22 <pikhq> Okay, I suppose that's fair.
00:17:28 <fizzie> There's a comp.std.c post where someone involved in the standardization process (I forget their actual job title, and it's not very easily searchable) lists the changes between N1570 and the final text.
00:17:39 <fizzie> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.std.c/v5hsWOu5vSw/zHU1sw7_2mIJ
00:18:14 <fizzie> There's a few errors where it's implied _Alignof can take an expression (rather than just a parenthesized type name), but I doubt that's a big deal.
00:18:40 <pikhq> So, only likely to be all that relevant if you're being especially rules-lawyerly
00:18:53 <fizzie> I guess since C18 was finalized, it's time to start citing that now.
00:21:56 <fizzie> Not sure it has as convenient a draft though.
00:22:22 <fizzie> http://iso-9899.info/wiki/The_Standard says the latest availale is c17_updated_proposed_fdis.pdf (N2176), which claims to be the "version of the document -- intended to be the version that is to go into ballot for C17".
00:23:25 <fizzie> Typesetting isn't bad, but the PDF TOC only goes three levels deep.
00:23:52 <fizzie> Formatting kind of reminds me of the c
00:23:58 <fizzie> ...C++ standard drafts.
00:25:21 <fizzie> Also, you can buy INCITS/ISO/IEC 9899:2012 for just $60, compared to the CHF 198 ISO wants.
00:25:32 <fizzie> I think it was $30 earlier, but, you know, trying times.
00:27:28 <pikhq> That's $60 more than I'm happy with, but that's not _that_ crazy.
01:01:11 <HackEso> HTML is short for "hope this mess loads".
01:32:21 <gerzytet> `learn html5 is something that should definitely not be parsed with regex
01:32:23 <HackEso> Learned 'html5': html5 is something that should definitely not be parsed with regex
01:33:06 <gerzytet> `learn John Skeet is the king of Stack Overflow
01:33:08 <HackEso> Learned 'john': John Skeet is the king of Stack Overflow
01:34:19 <gerzytet> `learn John_Skeet is the king of Stack Overflow
01:34:21 <HackEso> Learned 'john_skeet': John_Skeet is the king of Stack Overflow
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03:07:05 <esowiki> [[Bur]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61441&oldid=61362 * Zane * (+547)
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07:52:48 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61442&oldid=61429 * YamTokTpaFa * (-15613) Replaced content with "'''Devilic10''' is an assembly language for esoteric machine "'''Devilic10 Machine'''" designed by [[User: YamTokTpaFa]]. This language features binary-coded 9-ary value,..."
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08:02:59 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox2]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61443 * YamTokTpaFa * (+489) Created page with "{{Distinguish/Confusion|Braincrash}} '''BrainCrash''' is a [[:Category:Brainfuck derivatives|Brainfuck derivative language]] designed by , published in 2008. The purpos..."
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08:23:40 <esowiki> [[HQ9F+]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61444 * YamTokTpaFa * (+280) Created page with "{{Stub}} '''HQ9F+''' is a derivative language of [[HQ9+]] but with [[FizzBuzz]] feature, designed by , published in 2007. == Links == *[https://web.archive.org/web/200..."
08:30:08 <esowiki> [[HQ9F+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61445&oldid=61444 * YamTokTpaFa * (+366)
08:33:02 <esowiki> [[HQ9F+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61446&oldid=61445 * YamTokTpaFa * (+177)
08:36:12 <esowiki> [[HQ9F+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61447&oldid=61446 * YamTokTpaFa * (+13)
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08:39:23 <esowiki> [[Pxem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61448&oldid=61440 * YamTokTpaFa * (+31) /* Instructions */
08:46:49 <Taneb> I started playing Baba Is You last night
10:00:21 <shachaf> Did you manage to enjoy it?
10:00:42 <Taneb> Not in its entirety yet
10:01:02 <shachaf> Sure, only the parts you played.
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10:35:29 <esowiki> [[JCLN]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61449 * A * (+442) Created page with "[[JCLN]] (Jump Conditionally to a LiNe) is an [[OISC]] instruction. ==Syntax== ===To unconditionally jump to a line:=== <pre> jcln *, line #For example, to jump to line 5, you..."
10:38:38 <Taneb> It's fun and challenging
10:38:46 <Taneb> I'm going to take a long time to complete it, I feel
10:39:54 <esowiki> [[OISC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61450&oldid=61271 * A * (+167) /* List of OISCs */
10:45:24 <myname> like a good puzzle game should
10:46:00 <Taneb> I've looked at a couple of levels and given up and moved on
10:46:11 <Taneb> But luckily it lets you play non-linearly enough to accomplish that
10:48:31 <myname> i still recommend having a look at snakebird
10:50:49 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61451&oldid=61443 * YamTokTpaFa * (+1394)
10:51:08 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61452&oldid=61438 * A * (+433) incomplete
10:51:15 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61453&oldid=61451 * YamTokTpaFa * (-1883) Blanked the page
10:52:07 <esowiki> [[BrainCrash]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61454 * YamTokTpaFa * (+1940) Created page with "{{Distinguish/Confusion|Braincrash}} '''BrainCrash''' is a [[:Category:Brainfuck derivatives|Brainfuck derivative language]] designed by , published in 2008. The purpos..."
10:53:07 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck extensions]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61455&oldid=60983 * YamTokTpaFa * (+16)
10:53:57 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck.NET]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61456&oldid=56294 * YamTokTpaFa * (+38) /* Language overview */
10:54:00 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61457&oldid=61452 * A * (+111) incomplete
10:54:06 <rain1> snakebird is great
10:54:51 <Taneb> What's the concept?
10:58:20 <myname> you have figures that behave like in a snake game with gravity and you have to move those to a goal
10:59:29 <rain1> they are actually birds though
10:59:40 <rain1> they're just long birds
11:00:07 <Taneb> Ah, I'll have to check it out when I'm finished with BIY
11:00:50 <myname> there is a mobile version of it
11:04:48 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61458&oldid=61457 * A * (+145) Phew! Fill up the rest of the specification.
11:13:08 <esowiki> [[Braincrash]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61459&oldid=38051 * YamTokTpaFa * (+37)
11:13:29 <esowiki> [[BrainCrash]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61460&oldid=61454 * YamTokTpaFa * (+18)
11:14:00 <esowiki> [[HQ9F+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61461&oldid=61447 * YamTokTpaFa * (+18)
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11:23:48 <wob_jonas> fizzie, pikhq, shachaf: as for the C standard, what I'd like to know is whether I'm allowed to write offsetof(struct { char b; T v; }, v) in an expression instead of alignof(T), where T is some object type.
11:24:27 <wob_jonas> I looked at the drafts, but since offsetof is just a macro rather than a builtin, it doesn't have dozens of paragraphs of strict definitions, just some very brief description. at one point gcc and clang interpreted this differently, one allowed it and the other banned it.
11:40:12 <int-e> wob_jonas: at the very least 6.7.2.1.15 (in the? C18 draft) seems vague enough that the compiler is free to align the T v field more coarsely than strictly required.
11:40:39 <wob_jonas> int-e: oh sure, but that's not really my question
11:41:00 <wob_jonas> my question is whether you're allowed to define a struct right inside the offsetof
11:42:55 <wob_jonas> if it's allowed then you can use that to write alignof as a macro
11:43:04 <wob_jonas> a macro not using the builtin _Alignof that is
11:43:19 <int-e> "an integer constant expression" yeah that doesn't really help. But I not that there's no explicit restriction on the 'type' argument and struct{...} is a valid type in other contexts...
11:43:22 <wob_jonas> it doesn't matter much anymore, because today's compilers all support the builtin alignof
11:43:35 <wob_jonas> it cam up more back when some compilers didn't yet have it
11:43:52 <int-e> So I'd argue that your use case should be valid. But I can easily see it go wrong in practice :)
11:45:07 <wob_jonas> ... well, actually it's tricker than that
11:46:29 <int-e> you've probably done more digging into the standard than I have in the past 10 minutes :)
11:46:51 <wob_jonas> but every compiler has either alignof, or the gcc extension __alignof__, or the MS extension __alignof, or the C++ template std::alignment_of, or the boost version of that latter
11:47:12 <wob_jonas> no, I mean it's trickier than "toyda's compilers all support the builtin alignof"
11:49:23 <int-e> The main thing I did was to confirm that the compiler is free to align the T v field in whatever way it pleases as long as the minimum alignment is satisfied (the latter follows indirectly because you can take the address of that field and continue to access it through the resulting pointer without limitations)
11:52:33 <wob_jonas> yes, I know, technically the standard allows extra padding between and after struct elements. but as far as I know, in reality in only happens in old architectures and only at the very end of structs whose contents are too small.
11:53:18 <wob_jonas> in any case, these days compilers try to compile code with ABI compatible with that of other compilers, so they won't randomly add padding
11:58:52 <fizzie> FWIW, I'd read the bit where it says "the type and member designator shall be such that given `static /type/ t;` then the expression `&(t./member-designator/)` evaluates to an address constant" at least implying that it should be fine to put the struct definition there.
11:59:09 <fizzie> Because you could put it in the `static struct { ... } t;` as well.
11:59:17 <fizzie> But it's true it's a pretty brief description.
12:00:47 <int-e> wob_jonas: but if you only care about what happens in reality then you never need to consult the standard at all ;-)
12:01:46 <wob_jonas> fizzie: yes, they say that to exclude types like `int [2]`, which doesn't matter in the usual definition of offsetof, but this way it's uniform with va_arg.
12:02:17 <wob_jonas> int-e: right, that's why I tried gcc and clang, and one of them accepted it, the other didn't
12:04:06 <int-e> wob_jonas: are you willing to divulge which one accepted it?
12:09:24 <fizzie> I seem to recall on GCC offsetof(a,b) is just __builtin_offsetof(a,b). But of course that doesn't necessarily mean it would accept a struct definition in there.
12:18:59 <int-e> okay apparently gcc accepts it.
12:22:25 <int-e> but so does clang :P
12:22:56 <int-e> clang version 7.0.1-8, gcc (Debian 8.3.0-7) 8.3.0
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12:25:20 <int-e> printf("%zu\n", offsetof(struct{char a; int b;}, b)); <-- this is what I tried now.
12:29:57 <int-e> uh, wrong format specifier; offsets are signed.
12:38:39 <wob_jonas> fizzie: ok, but that doesn't really help you tell what it accepts
12:40:54 <wob_jonas> fizzie: the traditional definition was something like #define offsetof(t,f) (long)((t*)0->f)
12:41:14 <wob_jonas> and that's why it was originally a macro rather than a keyword
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12:55:20 <fizzie> int-e: No, the format specifier was fine.
12:56:02 <fizzie> "-- `offsetof(/type/, /member-designator/)` which expands to an integer constant expression that has type `size_t`, --"
12:56:11 <int-e> right, I didn't think that through :)
12:56:33 <int-e> (it can't be negative even though I think of it as a difference of pointers...)
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15:58:54 <fizzie> I think there's also an implementation like `#define offsetof(s,m) ((size_t)((char *)((s *)0)->m - (char *)0))` where it really is a difference of pointers.
15:59:09 <fizzie> (I don't think that's any better, or worse, than the other: it avoids the implementation-defined pointer-to-integer conversion, but still relies on making up the hypothetical `((*s)0)->m`.)
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16:14:53 <rdococ> What if a language only had downward funargs (functions don't extend the lifetime of their scope, can't use them when their scope dies), but simulated upward funargs by converting functions to CPS at runtime if they return anything that contains functions that are about to go out of scope?
16:15:46 <rdococ> For example, if F calls G, and G returns a function, then instead of popping G, F's continuation would be pushed. When that gets popped, G and F would be popped as well, returning whatever F's continuation popped.
16:15:56 <rdococ> s/continuation popped/continuation returned/
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18:32:44 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61462&oldid=61278 * Helen * (+3327) Java implementation of [[Volatile]]
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20:31:39 <esowiki> [[Bur]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61463&oldid=61441 * Zane * (+8)
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21:45:43 <HackEso> A mushroom is a fungus that grows above ground, especially after rain.
21:45:49 <b_jonas> there's not mush room for factual entries in this database
21:47:33 <HackEso> 11801:2019-04-29 <wob_jonäs> `` set -e; cd wisdom; mv -vi fungus mushroom; sed -i "s/^/A mushroom is /" mushroom; cat mushroom; echo ok
21:47:48 <HackEso> 11801:2019-04-29 <wob_jonäs> `` set -e; cd wisdom; mv -vi fungus mushroom; sed -i "s/^/A mushroom is /" mushroom; cat mushroom; echo ok \ 11797:2019-04-29 <fizzïe> ` mv wisdom/fungu wisdom/fungus # you may opt to `forget it if you wish
21:47:59 <HackEso> 11797:2019-04-29 <fizzïe> ` mv wisdom/fungu wisdom/fungus # you may opt to `forget it if you wish \ 11796:2019-04-29 <gerzytët> learn a fungus that grows above ground, especially after rain.
21:50:49 <kmc> yeah I was surprised about an entry that attempted to be factual
21:54:49 <b_jonas> kmc: it came about because I listed the few tanebventions that don't have an entry – there are about three or four – and then gerzytet created one, and then I renamed it to place
21:55:10 <b_jonas> and then ais came in and mentioned that he wants more factual wisdom entries and less stupid jokes
21:55:14 <HackEso> Tanebventions include necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, metar, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, Italian, the grace period, the limerick, ruin, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths or tanebventions: foods. He never invents anything involving sex.
21:55:29 <HackEso> Culinary tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, weetoflakes, mushrooms, nutella, and cognac.
21:56:23 <HackEso> The universe was invented by Taneb as an opposing force to oerjan. Escardó proved that it was indiscreet.
21:56:25 <HackEso> A universe is a poem in one stanza.
21:57:23 <HackEso> Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Klein bottles, string diagrams, linear logic, the reals, Lambek's lemma, Curry's paradox, Stone spaces, algebraic geometry, locales, and histograms.
21:57:52 <b_jonas> linear logic, ruin, and linear logic
22:00:07 <int-e> . o O ( Are you even allowed to use "linear logic" twice in a sentence? )
22:01:50 <b_jonas> mushroom, linear logic, and ruin
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22:39:02 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * New user account
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22:57:12 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61464&oldid=61409 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+229) /* Introductions */
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23:20:40 <lambdabot> int-e said 1d 1h 33m 5s ago: Seems you were correct... things are finally on track for going horribly right. Probably not in the way you expected though :)
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23:26:12 <oerjan> i'm worried about the bears, they might try to prevent anyone neutralizing him. (like the time creature trying to reverse the change...) krosp might go either way.
23:28:30 <oerjan> so, definitely horrible. it reminds to see if anything goes right.
23:30:18 <HackEso> 11801:2019-04-29 <wob_jonäs> `` set -e; cd wisdom; mv -vi fungus mushroom; sed -i "s/^/A mushroom is /" mushroom; cat mushroom; echo ok \ 11797:2019-04-29 <fizzïe> ` mv wisdom/fungu wisdom/fungus # you may opt to `forget it if you wish
23:30:32 <HackEso> A mushroom is a fungus that grows above ground, especially after rain.
23:36:11 <HackEso> toilet is elliot spelled backwards, without the extra l, with a t at the end.
23:43:53 <HackEso> ls: cannot access 'wisdom/ha': No such file or directory
23:44:52 <HackEso> 11802:2019-04-29 <wob_jonäs> forget ha \ 7443:2016-04-17 <b_jonäs> learn Ha van sz\xc3\xadved, hogy mindazt, mit el\xc3\xa9rt\xc3\xa9l, / Ha kell, egyetlen kock\xc3\xa1ra rakd, / s t\xc3\xbaltegyed magad, ha vesztes\xc3\xa9g \xc3\xa9r, / s ne legyen r\xc3\xb3la t\xc3\xb6bb\xc3\xa9 egy szavad
23:45:53 <oerjan> hm that doesn't explain the permission thing.
23:49:08 <oerjan> no one seemed to actually complete the quality control
23:50:19 <oerjan> although it's a little suspicious when `5 w gives the last one added...
23:50:31 <HackEso> cmd="${1-quote}"; \`^ 5 "$cmd"
23:50:49 <HackEso> cat: 'bin/^': No such file or directory
23:50:58 <HackEso> [[ $# == 2 ]] || { echo "Usage: $0 n cmd" >&2; exit 2; }; for ((i=0; i < $1; i++)); do \` "$2"; done | sport
23:51:29 <HackEso> #!/bin/sh \ f=$(find wisdom -ipath "wisdom/*$1*" -type f -print0 | shuf --random-source=/dev/urandom -z -n1); if [ -n "$f" ]; then echo -n "${f#wisdom/}//"; cat "$f"; else echo "That's not wise."; fi | rnooodl
23:51:49 <oerjan> you'd think urandom would be enough.
23:52:03 <oerjan> i suppose it was just meant to be deleted.
23:56:51 <HackEso> wisdom/if//If you can make one heap of all your winnings / And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss, / And lose, and start again at your beginnings / And never breathe a word about your loss: