←2012-07 2012-08 2012-09→ ↑2012 ↑all
00:00:04 <itidus21> the hickies made up for it though
00:00:15 <Phantom_Hoover> I looked back and I see itidus21 talking about raspberry fart noises.
00:00:25 <oklopol> made up for what and in what sense_
00:00:26 <oklopol> ?
00:00:34 <itidus21> for how horrible everything else was
00:00:51 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: during sex with the 12 yo sister of his friend who he has threesomes with.
00:01:18 <oklopol> itidus21: did everyone think you were cool?
00:01:23 <Phantom_Hoover> ok which words are true there
00:01:25 <Phantom_Hoover> this is important
00:01:36 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: sister of his friend
00:01:47 <oklopol> last one i dunno, might be a different friend.
00:02:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Don't scare me like that.
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00:02:29 <oklopol> hey i'm still all like wow itidus21 is not a virgin
00:02:44 <kmc> i'm just waiting for zzo to chime in
00:02:50 <itidus21> lol
00:03:05 <oklopol> i mean why does he keep complaining, he has achieved all the meaningful goals in human existence.
00:03:19 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, what about climbing Mt. Everest?
00:03:22 <oklopol> oh right
00:03:30 <oklopol> well 50% is still good
00:03:40 <itidus21> what color condoms do you think are best?
00:03:53 <itidus21> do you prefer unprotected sex?
00:04:05 <oklopol> i prefer testing + regular partner
00:04:20 <itidus21> i was guessing what zzo might say
00:04:35 <kmc> heh
00:04:36 <itidus21> :-s
00:04:50 <oklopol> otherwise, transparent. but condoms are horrible deathtraps.
00:04:56 <kmc> how's that
00:05:03 <oklopol> i'm guessing what zzo would answer if this was an alternate universe where he has sex
00:05:21 <oklopol> kmc: they hurt like hell
00:05:23 <kmc> zzo would use some super obscure kind of birth control
00:05:32 <kmc> the gopher:// of birth control
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00:05:48 <kmc> the first time i tried to use one i got it on inside out and it was super uncomfortable and awkward
00:05:51 <itidus21> have you been to santasporngirls.com?
00:06:07 <itidus21> what do you think about using the name santa in a porn website title?
00:06:34 <kmc> i think that there are so many websites like that
00:06:35 <oerjan> just the right thing for a very merry christmas
00:06:38 <kmc> they need to pick some odd names
00:06:42 <oklopol> well sex is about giving. wait let's drop this metaphor.
00:06:46 <mroman> santaporn?
00:06:48 <itidus21> again trying to guess what he might say
00:06:49 <oklopol> i realized who you give to.
00:06:55 <itidus21> but.. i don't mean any offence by it
00:06:57 <kmc> i'm pretty picky about condoms too, but i found a brand which fits well
00:07:03 <itidus21> all in the spirit of the chat
00:07:04 <Phantom_Hoover> itidus21, you've turned the topic of discussion to santaporn.
00:07:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Well done.
00:07:54 <oerjan> now meditate on the design of condoms using category theory
00:08:25 <itidus21> begin with a sheep's intestines
00:08:28 <oklopol> i've tried quite a few, but it gets boring to first hurt like hell for 10 minutes and then lose your erection.
00:08:43 <itidus21> right lads, we're onto something
00:09:44 <oklopol> we are
00:09:52 <oklopol> is that a surjectivity joke
00:10:07 <oerjan> an epic joke
00:10:11 <oklopol> yes
00:10:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Categorically the best.
00:10:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Although oerjan's pun works on a semantic as well as a syntactic basis so I can't really match that.
00:11:08 <oklopol> there must be a lot of puns with epic, no?
00:12:06 <oerjan> yeah they are universal
00:12:12 <oklopol> oerjan's was pretty incredible, but i assume it was not completely original as it is such perfection
00:12:26 <oklopol> :D
00:12:37 <oerjan> D: am i being accused of plagiarism
00:13:21 <itidus21> its better than being accused of being unfunny
00:13:30 <oklopol> suspected.
00:13:31 <oerjan> i guess.
00:13:36 <kmc> gotta sleep now
00:13:42 <kmc> good luck with all your various threesomes
00:13:59 <oklopol> thanks, we'll totally need that
00:15:30 <oklopol> in any case i'm sure it was the best use of epic ever
00:15:51 <oklopol> actually that's such a great exchange i'm going to write a play about it
00:16:26 <itidus21> so this is what happens when there isn't a topic
00:16:39 <oklopol> we might be onto something - epic story about surjectivity
00:16:45 <oklopol> *an
00:17:05 <oklopol> it's about a guy who has sex with his friend and his gf
00:17:19 <oklopol> and a guy who's really into puns and hates clicking
00:17:47 <oerjan> >_<
00:18:01 <oerjan> or was that <_>
00:18:05 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, where do I come in?
00:18:08 <oklopol> those are very different
00:18:23 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: you're the traumatized bystander
00:18:33 <itidus21> >_< means squinting eyes
00:18:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh is this what trauma feels like?
00:18:43 <Phantom_Hoover> BRB heading for the nearest firing range.
00:19:04 <oerjan> ...MAYBE not the best analogy.
00:19:16 <oklopol> >_< is a pretty aggressive smiley
00:19:25 <oklopol> <_> is like okay do whatever you want to me
00:19:54 <oerjan> okay
00:19:54 <itidus21> lmao
00:20:27 <itidus21> you shouldn't let him decide what words mean
00:20:44 <oerjan> smileys are not words
00:21:26 <itidus21> yeah..
00:23:20 <Phantom_Hoover> They're lexemes!
00:26:22 <oklopol> okay i'm going to sleep bye.
00:26:52 <oerjan> to sleep, perchance to scream
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00:41:33 * oerjan realizes from wp frontpage that eastenders is still ongoing
00:42:33 <oerjan> i was younger than most of you when it started!
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00:46:55 <oerjan> and most of you weren't born.
00:46:55 <itidus21> your age relative to everyone in the universe pretty much remains constant
00:47:12 <oerjan> *younger than most of you are now
00:47:31 <itidus21> oh
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01:38:55 * Phantom_Hoover wonders why a Norwegian would learn of Eastenders when it launched.
01:39:23 <pikhq> *Really* good TV antenna? :P
01:41:42 <Phantom_Hoover> WTF, Mary Whitehouse got a CBE?
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02:58:59 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_hotel http://sprunge.us/hjjg
02:59:11 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_space_hotel: 65.3
03:00:22 <quintopia> !bfjoust a <
03:00:25 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_a: 0.0
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04:07:54 <Sgeo__> Awesome. Telepathy and some darts helped me catch a and kill a monkey
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04:12:39 <Sgeo__> All the rings can either be good or bad?
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04:13:45 <Sgeo__> Hmm, that might be an oversimplification, the thingy by staff of healing is red, but I assume it could be used on yourself to good effect?
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04:27:09 <Sgeo__> Killed by a goblin on level 3.
04:28:21 <Sgeo__> Wondering if I should upload the recording somewhere
04:30:19 <Sgeo__> Ok, recordings are cool
04:31:20 <Sgeo__> There's no way to rewind a recording?
04:31:43 <Sgeo__> Oh, there is, but not using keys to go back one at a time :/
04:32:01 <Sgeo__> Oh, you can, it's just not in the help
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05:59:08 <Sgeo> lol
05:59:08 <lambdabot> Sgeo: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
05:59:12 <Sgeo> I was playing back a recording
05:59:29 <Sgeo> pressed left arrow
05:59:33 <Sgeo> "You ascend."
05:59:39 <Sgeo> "Unrecognized event type in playback"
05:59:48 <Sgeo> "Playback is out of sync. The file is corrupted."
06:04:03 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_hotel http://sprunge.us/XHid
06:04:09 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_space_hotel: 66.1
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06:06:36 <quintopia> :\
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06:23:01 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_hotel http://sprunge.us/BMSD
06:23:06 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_space_hotel: 66.4
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06:23:50 <quintopia> :'D
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06:34:57 <Sgeo> What does experience and leveling actually do in Brogue?
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08:16:49 <itidus21> Treat corporations like people... and they start acting like people.
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11:07:19 <kallisti> I have a new goal.
11:07:28 <kallisti> create the most influential esolang in the world
11:07:32 <kallisti> but give it a horrible name
11:07:39 <kallisti> like: cervix
11:07:59 <kallisti> this is essentially what brainfuck is
11:08:04 <kallisti> but I want to take it to the next level.
11:10:16 <monqy> hi
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13:43:36 <itidus21> i'm delusional
13:45:11 <monqy> hi
13:45:13 <elliott> hi
13:45:13 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
13:45:48 -!- itidus21 has changed nick to itidus20.
13:47:04 -!- itidus20 has changed nick to itidus21.
13:47:06 <itidus21> hi
13:47:07 <lambdabot> itidus21: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
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14:08:01 <kmc> what's wrong with cervixes
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14:12:37 <fizzie> Most of us wouldn't even be here if it weren't for cervices, presumably.
14:13:22 <kmc> very true
14:13:28 <boily> only "most"? what about the other people?
14:13:32 <kmc> but the same could be said for many other things which would make even worse esolang names
14:14:58 * Sgeo ponders automatic resource management in Tcl
14:15:25 <Sgeo> Current opinion about suckiest thing in Tcl: The lack of said resource management.
14:15:27 <fizzie> boily: Well, for example fungot here has had no direct involvement with one. (Though I suppose indirectly still.)
14:15:28 <fungot> fizzie: literature and fnord fnord
14:15:41 <fizzie> fungot: You're being very cogent there. Congratulations.
14:15:42 <fungot> fizzie: it is not the end of his life. he never willingly read or thought or talked about affairs of state.
14:15:43 <Sgeo> We should have moved on from the days of manual memory management.
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14:19:13 <elliott> hi
14:19:18 <monqy> wb
14:19:32 <elliott> monqy: i heard Sgeo was giving an impassioned speech & i wanted to be impassioned
14:19:43 <elliott> wanted and also want. my desires remain unchanging
14:20:52 <Sgeo> Anyways, I am mentally going over ideas on how to fix this, beyond the simplistic "make something that behaves like C#'s using", which really isn't helpful in all contexts, only some
14:23:38 <kmc> i'm drinking beer brand beer
14:23:40 <kmc> it's made by lidl
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15:21:41 <itidus21> working on advanced super mario bros sprite sheet stuff and this freaking sprite sheet lied to me which i was trying to copy off..
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15:29:23 <mroman> :)
15:29:57 <mroman> You mean sprite sheets with hitboxes, collision boxes and such?
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15:34:34 <mroman> playing fighting games a little bit more than casual is freaking insane :)
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16:16:50 <itidus21> mroman: nah.. i just mean sprite sheets as in a bitmap with multiple sprites presented together
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16:49:26 <oklopol> is everyone hating on http://what-if.xkcd.com/ ?
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17:25:35 <Gregor> oklopol: I don't hate it.
17:28:56 <oklopol> i found it very entertaining
17:29:07 <oklopol> or have been finding it entertaining so far at least
17:29:44 <mroman> what-if rocks.
17:29:58 <oklopol> why aren't gif animations called videos?
17:30:50 <oklopol> i don't understand the difference
17:33:29 <oklopol> i would understand gif video so that the reader knows it's probably a particularly sucky video
17:38:33 <itidus21> a video has more than one patent per compression scheme
17:39:09 <oklopol> that would be a pretty stupid definition though
17:39:21 <itidus21> in saying this i don't know if gif had multiple patents or not
17:39:33 <itidus21> but maybe
17:40:29 <Gregor> gif no longer has any standing patents.
17:40:47 <oklopol> Gregor: do you have a serious answer to my question?
17:41:01 <oklopol> this is very important, it has been bugging me for at least 5 minutes.
17:41:06 <oklopol> wait 10
17:41:21 <Gregor> “<Gregor> oklopol: I don't hate it.” is my answer.
17:41:43 -!- Gregor has changed nick to MeatyBelle.
17:41:48 <oklopol> to both questions_
17:41:50 <oklopol> ?
17:42:05 <MeatyBelle> What, gif?
17:42:08 <oklopol> yes
17:42:12 <itidus21> im tempted to find out the answer now
17:42:13 <MeatyBelle> Because at some point, somebody decreed that they were called videos.
17:42:14 <MeatyBelle> Erm
17:42:15 <MeatyBelle> *animations
17:42:20 <MeatyBelle> There's no logic to it.
17:42:36 <oklopol> but that's absurd.
17:42:43 <MeatyBelle> *waah*
17:42:59 <oklopol> i can't live in a world where occasionally, things don't make perfect sense but just kind of do.
17:43:27 <itidus21> theres probably a reasonable answer. but its too cold and late to find out
17:44:32 <oklopol>
17:45:07 <itidus21> so to recap, it's graphics interchange format, unlike the other formats which are not intended to be interchanged
17:45:43 <MeatyBelle> lol
17:46:02 <mroman> oklopol: Well, that's easy.
17:46:09 <mroman> JA means yes.
17:46:12 <mroman> GAS means gas.
17:46:40 <mroman> REH means deer
17:48:52 <pikhq> itidus21: There were multiple patents on the LZW compression algorithm.
17:49:04 <itidus21> well there goes that theory
17:49:39 <oklopol> does gif do any compression beyond compressing the individual images?
17:49:54 <fizzie> oklopol: The video frames need not be full-frame, that's a form of compression.
17:50:04 <kallisti> True love is like infinite mutual recursion. Unconditional.
17:50:14 <fizzie> oklopol: You can have a mostly empty frame that gets pasted on top of the previous.
17:50:19 * kallisti adds to list of corny things to say to future wife.
17:50:31 <MeatyBelle> s/future/imaginary/
17:50:33 <oklopol> isn't that also a big part of avi's compression
17:50:47 <itidus21> its also how games work!
17:50:48 <oklopol> + the fourier stuff i guess
17:50:53 <fizzie> oklopol: "AVI" is just a container, so that question doesn't have an answer.
17:50:55 <MeatyBelle> “avi's compression”
17:50:56 <MeatyBelle> X_X
17:51:01 <oklopol> umm right.
17:51:08 <oklopol> mpeg i guess
17:51:36 <fizzie> Anyway, "real" video formats do "that kinda thing" too. And stuff like motion compensation, so you can even keep things from moving objects.
17:54:48 <oklopol> right
17:54:53 <itidus21> what i have learned is that the most complex element of an image is the underlying 2d bitmap
17:55:12 <pikhq> oklopol: Which format? The Moving Picture Experts Group does lots of formats. :)
17:55:18 <itidus21> abstract bitmap patterns
17:55:24 <oklopol> by the underlying 2d bitmap of an image, do you mean the image?
17:55:32 <oklopol> pikhq: yeah fuck you :D
17:55:59 <itidus21> i don't know what i mean... i guess that in vector graphics you don't need a bitmap at all
17:56:30 <itidus21> eg.. a mechanical monitor could have a balloon device which fills with a certain amount of air to render a sphere
17:56:44 <itidus21> .. (what?) @_@
17:56:46 <MeatyBelle> MPEG-1 part 2, MPEG-2 part 2, MPEG-4 part 2, MPEG4 H.263, MPEG4 H.264 off the top of my head.
17:57:55 <oklopol> i'm referring to one of those or something else.
17:58:06 <oklopol> obviously.
17:58:06 <itidus21> by mechanical monitor i mean a more generalized attempt at creating an image by using material components
17:58:44 <itidus21> in other words a hollow tv without any glass perhaps with a man hiding behind the curtain
17:59:05 <itidus21> ..... im just gonna let that go
17:59:41 <oklopol> no no i think you're epic with something as your codomain.
18:02:06 <oklopol> i think for each in something there's something in you that has it as its image.
18:02:56 <oklopol> wait that's wrong, since you're the mapping
18:03:05 <fizzie> oklopol: MPEG frames may also depend not only on the previous frame, but the next frame too. (You have some completely individually compressed I-frames here and there; some P-frames that are stored as the diff from the previous (P- or I-)frame after applying motion vectors; and some B-frames which can use both the previous and next (P- or I-)frame as anchors.)
18:07:04 <oklopol> i think if you were a function on reals such that for each open interval I and point mapping to it there were both a left- and right-open interval around x which which mapped inside I then there would be a preimage for all primes which have 7 digits or more and their negations
18:09:29 <oklopol> why doesn't anyone ever join my math parties :(
18:10:04 <oklopol> i think you're all about surjectivity jokes when i'm not here but when i come it's like shhhhhh let's talk about kernels and shit hahaha
18:10:23 <oklopol> you're mean and i need to go to the shoppe to buy something to live about.
18:11:32 <fizzie> You, uh, know there are public logs that you could use to verify your conspiracy theory?
18:11:50 <oklopol> fizzie: i think i've read about those on an operating systems course.
18:11:53 <MeatyBelle> Unless they're part of the conspiracy.
18:13:08 <oklopol> i think you filter them by ip, when i was looking at them in russia i'm pretty sure i saw some surjectivity jokes, but magically there's none now.
18:15:27 <oklopol> what's the name of the concept in measure theory where you have a result that holds for almost all and you prove the same thing for all? i guess this is mostly for oerjan.
18:15:47 <itidus21> i merely realized i was wrong
18:16:02 <itidus21> and spun off in some mad direction
18:16:31 <oklopol> i don't think you were wrong
18:17:06 <oklopol> INSTEAD I THINK IF YOU WERE AN argh shoppe tyme
18:17:33 <itidus21> well something i'm only recently learning is that objects intended to be rendered can be described without any reference to pixels
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18:27:39 <soundnfury> umm, what on earth is oklopol on about?
18:28:31 <soundnfury> it'd be a lot more comprehensible if he used some notation
18:29:04 <oklopol> okay
18:29:46 <oklopol> so take X = S^Z where S is a finite set with the discrete topology, Z is the integers, and S^Z has the product topology
18:30:05 <oklopol> and let's assume itidus21 is a function from this space to itself with two properties
18:30:09 <oklopol> 1) it's continuous
18:30:13 <soundnfury> um, how can you have a product topology on a power set?
18:30:20 <soundnfury> oh wait I see
18:30:22 <oklopol> it's an infinite product
18:30:28 <soundnfury> the iterated-product topology, sure
18:31:38 <soundnfury> um, isn't that product topology also discrete?
18:31:53 <oklopol> whatever you like to call it, in any case the topology with base "the coordinates n_1, ..., n_k have the symbols s_1, ..., s_k \in S" is a base
18:32:02 <oklopol> it's not! in fact it is perfect
18:32:32 <oklopol> that is, for any point x in there you will find points arbitrarily close (in any open set U around x, you find a point other than x)
18:33:23 <oklopol> this is because an open set is a superset of some finite intersection V of sets of the base, and each such set V contains uncountably many points or none
18:33:36 <oklopol> because you only say something about finitely many coordinates
18:33:47 <oklopol> if x satisfies that, just change the tail however you like.
18:33:57 <oklopol> the right or left tail
18:34:33 <oklopol> 2) let \sigma be the left shift map, that is, \sigma(x)_i = x_{i + 1}
18:34:46 <oklopol> so the ith coordinate of \sigma(x) is the i+1th coordinate of x
18:35:02 <oklopol> then, itidus commutes with \sigma
18:35:40 <oklopol> now, this kind of spoils the fun, but then itidus is just a cellular automaton.
18:36:07 <oklopol> further, we assume that if you take two points x and y with the following properties
18:36:16 <oklopol> well property really
18:36:40 <oklopol> for sufficiently large |i|, we have x_i = y_i, but x != y
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18:37:28 <oklopol> we call such points asymptotic (they are "asymptotically" the same both left and right)
18:37:58 <oklopol> we assume that for such points x and y, itidus will map them to distinct points
18:38:01 -!- itidus21 has left ("Leaving").
18:38:07 <oklopol> erm
18:38:45 <oklopol> sorry, this last part, that if two points are asymptotic then they're mapped to distinct points, was not an assumption, i now realize that my point was only to claim that itidus is surjective
18:39:06 <oklopol> so i'm claiming that if itidus were a CA, then he would map two such points to distinct points.
18:39:17 <oklopol> because that's a characterization of surjectivity.
18:40:05 <oklopol> and because we defined the full shift (X) as "something" for the purpose of my claim, itidus is onto something.
18:40:17 <soundnfury> yeah, you know what?
18:40:30 <oklopol> well what?
18:40:36 <soundnfury> this kind of joke isn't funny.
18:41:45 <oklopol> sorry i forgot you were that music dude
18:41:45 <soundnfury> besides, no-one says "onto" these days, we're all Bourbakistes
18:42:10 <soundnfury> hey, I'm a mathmo, I find maths jokes funny
18:42:20 <soundnfury> but that was just too tortured
18:42:37 <oklopol> people don't say onto?
18:42:53 <soundnfury> well, not much
18:44:18 <soundnfury> now, a /funny/ onto/surjective joke would have been something much shorter, like "you have a right inverse with domain something"
18:44:40 <soundnfury> it's still a geeky maths pun, but it doesn't take much effort to get it
18:44:42 <oklopol> three out of five most recent arxiv entries use it
18:45:20 <soundnfury> oklopol: ok so actually I meant "I don't use it and I think it's shite and confusing"
18:45:35 <soundnfury> though it's really the equivalent terms for injective and bijective that are shite and confusing
18:45:51 <oklopol> those are shit, yes
18:46:05 <oklopol> one-to-one map and one-to-one correspondence
18:46:07 <soundnfury> when I hear "injective" I know exactly what it means. When I hear "one-one", fuck knows
18:46:07 <oklopol> yeeeah.
18:46:19 <oklopol> but onto is pretty handy imo.
18:46:40 <soundnfury> "onto" is easy to miss, though, because in natural language it means something else
18:47:08 <soundnfury> if it weren't specifically defined, "a function onto X" would just mean a function with codomain X
18:47:11 <oklopol> i disagree
18:47:41 <soundnfury> and hence it's possible not to notice that someone said their function was surjective
18:48:04 <oklopol> in theory, maybe
18:48:31 <oklopol> hasn't happened to me. and i make more reading errors than you can even imagine.
18:48:44 <oklopol> because onto means surjective
18:49:44 <soundnfury> Is English your native language? "Oklopol" sounds scandinavian, so I'm guessing not
18:50:27 <oklopol> "you have a right inverse with domain something" that's not funny, it isn't even a reference to a theorem
18:50:29 <soundnfury> that might be why you're able to learn technical vocabulary without problems when it conflicts with common usage
18:50:47 <soundnfury> why does it have to be a reference to a theorem?
18:50:53 <oklopol> otherwise it's trivial
18:51:03 <oklopol> a mathematical fart joke
18:51:11 <soundnfury> you know what? I've just stopped caring, because there's some more Olympics on
18:51:23 <soundnfury> ttfn
18:51:27 -!- Taneb has joined.
18:51:37 <Taneb> Hello!
18:52:13 -!- oerjan has joined.
18:52:32 <oklopol> yeah fuck you too
18:52:52 <oklopol> erm, to soundnfury, not to Taneb :D
18:53:09 <Taneb> :D
18:54:19 <soundnfury> lo Taneb
18:54:55 <oklopol> "soundnfury: that might be why you're able to learn technical vocabulary without problems when it conflicts with common usage" yes, that must be why the finnish version was also so easy to internalize. finns are just that much smarter i guess.
18:55:32 <soundnfury> is the finnish word for "onto" a bit longer, perhaps?
18:55:58 <oerjan> <oklopol> what's the name of the concept in measure theory where you have a result that holds for almost all and you prove the same thing for all? i guess this is mostly for oerjan.
18:56:02 <oerjan> no f idea
18:56:15 <oklopol> something about rigidity i think
18:56:17 <oklopol> okay
18:57:05 <oklopol> "<soundnfury> is the finnish word for "onto" a bit longer, perhaps?" it's the -lle suffix
18:57:42 <soundnfury> prepositions are suffices in finnish?
18:57:49 <oerjan> the finnish don't have a word for onto, they have a case, obviously. the suffix is -atukkontiappalaansiessut/-ätykköntiäppäläänsiessyt, depending on vowel harmony.
18:57:55 <soundnfury> (is it grammatical/morphological case?)
18:58:15 <soundnfury> oerjan: haha lol
18:58:38 <oerjan> pay no attention to oklopol's lying grammar
18:58:47 <soundnfury> what, if anything, does that suffix really mean?
18:58:55 <Taneb> Isn't Finnish the one with 20000+ verb forms?
18:58:56 <oklopol> yeah we have mostly cases. oerjan is confusing onto with the case for "having a beer with x in a bar after beating your wife".
18:59:39 <oklopol> soundnfury: -lle means onto something
19:00:08 <oklopol> well often you use just on when we use -lle, it's very common.
19:00:09 <soundnfury> no, I wanted to know what oerjan's atukkontiablablablallantysiliogogogoch meant
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19:01:03 <oerjan> i cannot prove it means anything, although no one can prove i am lying because i followed the vowel harmony rules
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19:01:56 <oerjan> soundnfury: you may want to replace that y with u for the same reason.
19:01:59 <oklopol> also annoyingly enough that's very good pig finnish, i can't point anything impossible out.
19:02:28 <oerjan> *MWAHAHAHAHALAISET*
19:02:54 <oklopol> the citizens of evil laughter.
19:04:18 <oklopol> oerjan: wanna join me in creating great surjectivity comedy
19:04:42 <oerjan> i'm sorry i already have used up my epic quest quota
19:04:50 <oklopol> :(
19:06:59 <oerjan> * Phantom_Hoover wonders why a Norwegian would learn of Eastenders when it launched. <-- it is possible it took a few years to get broadcast here, although i doubt it was more than a couple
19:08:17 <oerjan> 1987, says http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%98stkantfolk
19:09:39 <Taneb> "stkantfolk" sounds a lot more awesome than Eastenders.
19:09:55 <oklopol> it says it started broadcasting in finland after 206 seasons.
19:10:04 <Taneb> How's pronounced, again?
19:10:19 <oklopol> as an , obviously
19:10:25 <oerjan> lower front rounded
19:10:32 <oerjan> ipa is /ø/ iirc
19:11:05 <oklopol> basically the "a" in "a silly norwegian letter"
19:11:43 <oerjan> no:Østkantfolk ~ en:East side people
19:12:27 <oerjan> Østkanten is a concept in the norwegian capital Oslo, it's the poorer part with traditionally the industry
19:13:21 <oerjan> i believe this is the same in many cities around the world, because of prevalence of west-east winds and the fact rich people don't like to breathe smog.
19:13:44 <Taneb> Yeah, it's even the case in Hexham :(
19:13:51 <Taneb> (I'm in the east end
19:13:52 <Taneb> )
19:13:57 <oklopol> not in turku, we're too small to have sides
19:15:04 <Taneb> If Hexham can have sides, Turku can have sides
19:15:12 <oklopol> we're smaller
19:15:13 <oerjan> i recently saw a chart of amphetamine use in european cities, i remember the top 3 were Helsinki, Turku and Oslo
19:15:22 <oklopol> woohoo!
19:15:26 <oerjan> not quite sure of the order of the first two
19:15:41 <Taneb> Ahead of Amsterdam, Birmingham, and Glasgow?
19:15:43 <Taneb> Wow
19:16:27 <oerjan> oh this was a chart based on analyzing the sewers and dividing by population
19:17:16 <oerjan> it confused me a bit because the newspaper article then went on to say Oslo was top in Europe
19:17:32 <Taneb> Maybe they thought Finland was in South America?
19:17:37 <oerjan> most likely.
19:18:48 <oerjan> it is not entirely unlikely they didn't check every city
19:19:15 <oklopol> i know a girl 700 up north who's tried it, but i have never even heard of amphetamine use in turku outside statistics
19:19:19 <oklopol> 700 km
19:19:44 <oklopol> so how much is much exactly?
19:19:45 <oerjan> <itidus21> Treat corporations like people... and they start acting like people. <-- *psychopatic people hth
19:23:32 <Taneb> Psychopathic people who never return my christmas cards :(
19:24:55 <oerjan> <mroman> REH means deer <-- REH, a deer, a female deer, DOH, a drop of golden sun...
19:26:39 -!- elliott has joined.
19:26:47 <elliott> fizzie: Deewiant: What's a good C++ source reformatter?
19:26:53 <elliott> Indentation but also things like f( x ) vs. f(x).
19:26:56 <oerjan> i'm suddenly depicting someone getting _very_ confused during the translation of sound of music to/from german
19:27:54 <shachaf> f(\n\tx\n)
19:28:17 <elliott> kmc may also apply.
19:28:25 <elliott> By which I mean: reply.
19:28:41 <oklopol> surely you mean supply
19:31:23 <soundnfury> sed :P
19:34:23 <monqy> : )
19:35:09 * oerjan cannot find any german version of the song :(
19:35:25 <oerjan> i mean, don't the germans dub _everything_?
19:35:46 <oerjan> i guess they might not like the film over there, given the subject.
19:42:15 * oerjan wonders if other people really have as much inner monologue as in today's xkcd
19:43:10 <oerjan> while having conversations, especially
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20:44:03 <Taneb> @ping
20:44:03 <lambdabot> pong
20:44:54 <Taneb> You took your time :(
20:46:16 <elliott> i apologise
20:46:32 <shachaf> helliott
20:47:11 <fizzie> Taneb: As seen from here: 23:44:03 <Taneb> @ping 23:44:03 <lambdabot> pong
20:48:03 <Taneb> The "You took your time :(" was addressed at the pipes between here and Freenode
20:48:14 <Taneb> Specifically, the pipe between my computer and my router
20:55:25 <oklopol> oerjan: do you?
20:56:19 <elliott> `welcome adac
20:56:30 <HackEgo> adac: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
20:56:43 <mroman> `welcome mroman
20:56:46 <HackEgo> mroman: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
20:56:59 <mroman> I needed that.
20:57:03 <adac> hi elliott :) yeah i was looking for esoterica I guess ;)
20:57:29 <mroman> The only channel named #esoteric where you can't buy books about weird religions.
20:58:19 <elliott> you can buy things on irc?
20:58:33 <mroman> Yeah, sure.
20:58:46 <Taneb> elliott, would you like to buy a copy of Now 76?
20:58:47 <mroman> Just give me your credit card number and the security code for online shopping.
20:59:08 <oerjan> oklopol: i don't think so, no.
20:59:29 <elliott> Taneb: yes
20:59:43 <Taneb> elliott, tough, because I don't own any I can sell you :(
20:59:49 <Taneb> mroman might
20:59:49 <elliott> im sobbing
20:59:58 <Taneb> Go badger mroman
21:00:19 <oerjan> but then i've been training to reduce my inner monologue. although i don't recall doing it during conversations before either.
21:01:04 <Taneb> I think I have an internal monologue
21:01:17 <Taneb> But conversations distract me so I don't hear it then?
21:01:29 <Taneb> But sometimes it gets so loud it comes out my mouth
21:02:28 <mroman> I can sell you MiniSAS-Cables.
21:04:33 <mroman> And why would I have Now 76
21:04:39 <mroman> I have a CD collection though
21:04:43 <mroman> but that's not my style of music.
21:07:54 <mroman> Train is still active?
21:08:32 <Sgeo> I should try writing a general using proc for Tcl
21:09:09 <Taneb> I got a train only two days ago
21:09:12 <mroman> Why are you use "the cacky language"?
21:09:19 <mroman> *ing-form
21:09:26 <mroman> Taneb: The band "Train".
21:10:02 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving").
21:10:04 <Sgeo> It's a language that seems to have the tools to make it into anything I want, but not enough in actual existence of decent stuff
21:10:13 <Sgeo> I think elliott left because of me :/
21:11:16 <mroman> You know... the "tell me did you sail across the sun did you make it to the milky way" kind of train
21:12:16 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
21:12:57 <mroman> Not to be confused with "I took the midnight train"
21:13:04 <mroman> Because taking the midnight train is a journey.
21:15:16 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
21:18:34 <Sgeo> Unlike many languages I look at, I actually wrote a program to do something useful in Tcl.
21:18:46 <Sgeo> Sadly, it's very riddled with global variables.
21:20:49 <kallisti> Sgeo: learn perl. you will have a similar experience
21:20:53 <kallisti> possibly with fewer global variables.
21:21:19 <mroman> Learn Burlesque
21:21:26 <mroman> It doesn't have variables.
21:22:05 <Taneb> I took a midnight train going anywhere
21:22:18 <Taneb> Do not cease to believe!
21:22:27 <mroman> So you're just a small town girl?
21:22:40 <mroman> or Just a city boy?
21:24:04 <Taneb> You're not half wrong
21:24:19 <oerjan> half not even wrong
21:28:57 <Taneb> Is it weird that when people misspell my first name it really annoys me, even though I don't care how they spell my surname that much?
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21:30:42 <kallisti> my first name is Adam. No one misspells that ever. So I just have to pick something else to get mad at, such as misspelling my last name.
21:31:15 <Taneb> My first name is Nathan, which contains a schwa
21:31:26 <mroman> Schwa?
21:31:39 <kallisti> uhhh
21:31:49 <oerjan> thus it can only be spelled correctly in hebrew
21:31:52 <Taneb> mroman, short, lazy vowel sound
21:31:58 <Taneb> oerjan, where it is a verb :(
21:32:01 <coppro> ə
21:32:11 <Taneb> Nath'n
21:32:20 <mroman> So it's not pronounce englishly?
21:32:25 <Taneb> Oh, it is
21:32:36 <coppro> mroman: schwa is the name of the sound
21:32:37 <Taneb> It's actually the most common vowel in speech
21:32:47 <oerjan> this sathan guy is so sensitive to spelling
21:32:48 <mroman> I would pronounce it well
21:32:53 <mroman> neyfn
21:32:53 <coppro> it is denoted ə in linguistics, where every sound needs a distinct notation
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21:33:01 <mroman> or neythn actually
21:33:21 <Taneb> My surname's obscure even in its native Netherlands
21:34:21 <oerjan> how is the supervillain of bad kerning coming up?
21:34:32 <Taneb> Poorly
21:34:59 <oerjan> yeah doctorates take time
21:34:59 <Taneb> My plan to be elected president is hindered due to the lack of republics I am native to
21:35:00 <coppro> I would pronounce Nathan as neɪðɪn
21:35:14 <Taneb> The doctorate is a long way off
21:35:17 <coppro> Taneb: you ended that sentence with a proposition
21:35:26 <Taneb> Don't get me STARTED with minions
21:35:29 <oerjan> Taneb: you'll just have to get that nice old lady to retire first
21:35:45 <oerjan> i hear she does some mean parachuting
21:36:00 <oklopol> don't get me excited like that, i thought Taneb was talking about his university studies :(
21:36:22 <oerjan> oklopol: oh but he _is_. supervillainy is an advanced subject.
21:36:59 <Taneb> oklopol, I'm beginning to apply for undergrad studies, in Maths and Computer Science.
21:37:21 <oklopol> oh you study supervillainy at university? i thought it was a vocational school kinda thing.
21:37:32 <oklopol> you are? that's awesome which uni
21:38:33 * oerjan locks coppro into a padded cell out of which he will not get
21:38:51 <coppro> yay!
21:39:11 <oerjan> sadly he still has internet access.
21:39:59 <oerjan> Taneb: i suggest starting with onions and building up from there.
21:41:25 <oerjan> maybe you could be a culinary supervillain.
21:42:01 <coppro> Taneb: cool
21:42:53 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chef#Titles doesn't show up anything really suitable, though
21:44:04 <MeatyBelle> The pants, the pants, I want them all!
21:44:33 <oerjan> argh he's progressed from the hats!
21:45:33 <mroman> I thought that was Gregor?
21:45:33 <oerjan> MeatyBelle: so i take it choosemypants.com is up next?
21:45:47 <mroman> or is he Gregor but disguised?
21:45:48 <Taneb> oklopol, trying for Oxford. Success is unlikely.
21:45:53 <oklopol> how so
21:46:32 <oerjan> invent a supergenius serum first.
21:46:51 <oklopol> i thought about oxford at some point, would've been cool to study in a university people konw.
21:46:53 <oklopol> know
21:47:04 <Taneb> Grade requirements
21:47:13 <oklopol> then i wouldn't have to have good publications, i could just tell people i come from oxford.
21:47:20 <MeatyBelle> oerjan: I've got choosemytie.com !
21:47:28 <oerjan> wow
21:47:58 <oklopol> what kind of grade requirements?
21:48:08 <oerjan> it seems a little under construction.
21:48:24 <coppro> Taneb: you should come across the pond!
21:48:43 <coppro> Taneb: you've got one more year of secondary school?
21:49:03 <oklopol> oerjan: why is it a wow
21:49:34 <oklopol> oh
21:49:36 <oklopol> tie!
21:49:38 <oklopol> not hat.
21:49:45 <oklopol> i was kinda wondering how you didn't know
21:49:46 <Taneb> coppro, yeah
21:49:51 <oerjan> hm how does Tenzo van Doom sound
21:49:54 <coppro> Taneb: what are your grades like?
21:50:22 <MeatyBelle> <oerjan> it seems a little under construction. // I have no intention of actually making it.
21:50:29 <Taneb> A* in maths, further maths, B-A in Latin, Ancient History
21:50:29 <oklopol> i had horrible grades in secondary school
21:50:55 <oklopol> A*?
21:51:02 <Taneb> A*.
21:51:06 <oklopol> what's that
21:51:08 <Taneb> The best grade imaginable!
21:51:33 <coppro> Taneb: you should definitely come here then :P
21:51:41 <coppro> I promise we teach real math
21:51:55 <oklopol> coppro: are you at oxford or what is come?
21:52:12 <Taneb> Yeah, British Government introduced it because too many people were getting A's, Universities and Employers were getting confuzzled
21:52:22 <oklopol> haha
21:52:31 <oklopol> did they know it's a search algorithm
21:52:32 <coppro> university of waterloo
21:52:41 <coppro> Taneb: ...
21:52:51 <coppro> Taneb: your government is brilliant at solving the actual problem
21:53:17 <MeatyBelle> oerjan: I was referring to http://solidcolorpants.com/ by the way, what with pants.
21:53:21 <oklopol> yeah, too many smart people.
21:53:31 <oklopol> they should teach worse instead.
21:53:39 <coppro> they should just grade harder
21:53:48 <coppro> odds are good the system has gotten easy over the years
21:53:52 <coppro> change the failing grade if you have to
21:54:04 <coppro> but the range of available grades should still be representative
21:58:11 <Taneb> Canada...
21:58:12 <Taneb> Hmm
21:58:13 <oklopol> my math average was at most B in secondary school, perhaps closer to C
21:59:01 <Taneb> I had to stop myself saying "eh" instead of "hmm". But the "eh" wasn't meant to be making fun of Canadians or playing on the stereotypes?
21:59:09 <Taneb> I'm sure it's a different eh
21:59:35 <oerjan> just a stray schwa, probably
21:59:47 <Taneb> Nah, this has more stress on it
21:59:54 <Taneb> Closer to an ay
22:01:25 <oklopol> i hear canadians are cool
22:01:37 <oerjan> deep frozen
22:01:58 <Taneb> I'm further north than every major Canadian city except Edmonton, I think
22:02:16 <oklopol> oh well it's useless then
22:03:16 <Taneb> But we get the warm weather from the gulf stream
22:04:42 <Taneb> coppro, what universities do you recommend I look at for Maths?
22:07:59 -!- augur has joined.
22:08:06 <oklopol> come to turku, we can work together :DASASD
22:08:27 <oklopol> why do i keep suggesting that, it's still not really possible.
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22:31:51 <coppro> Taneb: In Canada? Simon Fraser, Toronto, and Waterloo of course
22:31:54 <coppro> (hint: Waterloo)
22:33:39 * oerjan visited the math department of waterloo in october 1995 or thereabouts
22:34:10 <oerjan> or wait, "fields institute"
22:35:13 <oerjan> hm it says it was relocated to toronto in the same year
22:35:21 <oerjan> s/it/wikipedia/
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22:36:02 <oerjan> maybe it was 1994 we went there
22:38:23 <oerjan> also waggie was at the compsci department there. although i doubt any agora players here have been long enough to remember him.
22:39:58 <oerjan> or maybe _that_ was the math department.
22:42:42 <oklopol> why were you there?
22:43:15 <oklopol> 1994 was roughly when i decided to become a programmer
22:43:46 <oklopol> although i will sleep nough.
22:52:10 <oerjan> there was a conference on C*-algebras and stuff
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00:29:38 <quintopia> :\
00:30:19 <quintopia> david_werecat: hi :\
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02:41:24 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_hotel http://sprunge.us/UKhG
02:41:36 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_space_hotel: 66.6
02:43:53 <quintopia> still not as high as when i let counterpoke beat me :P
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03:12:14 <david_werecat> quintopia: Wow, the new bfjoust competitor beats everything.
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04:25:21 <tswett> Gregor: I figure you might appreciate this. http://soundcloud.com/tswett/cakesnap-wip-1
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05:14:45 <elliott> kmc: from today's HWN quotes section: "jmcarthur: we calmly talk trolls to death"
05:14:48 <elliott> thought u'd apreciate
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05:31:13 <elliott> So I hear Volume 4, Pre-fascicle 6A is out.
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06:55:10 <Sgeo> I am going to test something, and to test it requires disconnecting briefly. I am not having network troubles, and I hope this does not bother anyone.
06:57:19 <Phantom_Hoover> oh thank god
06:57:20 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
06:57:45 <Phantom_Hoover> the idea of being without Sgeo for any length of time without knowing why is simply unbearable.
06:58:11 <Phantom_Hoover> also apparently holy shit bill dos died
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06:59:06 <Phantom_Hoover> hey Sgeo_, the name bill dos mean anything to you
06:59:34 <Sgeo_> As in "Bill Dos" or "Bill" does mean anything?
07:00:08 <Phantom_Hoover> The former.
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07:01:17 <Phantom_Hoover> The only hits on Google are people with the name 'Bill Dos <something>', articles about Bill Gates and one South African "computer academy".
07:01:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh hmm it may have been Bill Doss.
07:06:01 <Phantom_Hoover> @tell elliott FFS if you're going to notify me of the deaths of obscure musicians at least spell their names right.
07:06:02 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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07:20:50 <ais523> `quote expensive health food
07:21:01 <HackEgo> 130) <fungot> ais523: elf corpses are not considered expensive health food. but the most expensive.
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07:45:07 <Taneb> Hello
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08:07:19 <kmc> Ubuntu 12.04 "Mrki Medvjed"
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09:00:43 <Sgeo_> Is it just me, or is the bus factor of the current Common Lisp ecosystem ONE?
09:02:00 <Sgeo_> AFAIK, Xach is the only maintainer of quicklisp
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12:17:19 <nooga> haaa
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12:34:12 <Taneb> Why does r/picturesofiansleeping exist!?
12:38:59 <Sgeo_> Because someone created it.
12:39:41 <Sgeo_> Woah, ok, it seems to be incredibly popular.
12:39:44 <Sgeo_> THAT's disturbing.
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12:40:28 <Sgeo_> Oh, Ian agreed to it
12:41:02 <Taneb> But why do 7000 people want to see pictures of some guy sleeping?
12:41:50 <itidus21> always the easy questions get people stumped
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12:42:15 <Taneb> I'm not sure if that's true
12:42:21 <Taneb> I'll demonstrate.
12:42:28 <Taneb> What's 3 times 2
12:42:29 <Taneb> ?
12:42:35 <itidus21> 6
12:42:42 <itidus21> whoa
12:42:43 <Taneb> Wasn't that an easy question
12:42:46 <itidus21> i see what you mean
12:43:06 <Sgeo_> Always the questions that get people stumped get people stumped.
12:43:13 <itidus21> qed
12:43:53 <itidus21> but to get back to the point i was gonna make
12:44:19 <itidus21> someone had to create every last image found on the internet, or used software to generate them
12:44:39 <itidus21> that in itself should be quite depressing
12:45:04 <itidus21> but not really
12:45:12 <itidus21> the pictures tend to be ok in context
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12:45:45 <Taneb> Is this heading towards rule 34?
12:45:49 <itidus21> myspace girl discovers camera and proceeds to take 20 photos of herself from extreme angles
12:45:50 <Taneb> Hello, Gregor
12:46:23 <itidus21> flickr user takes 200 low resolution photos of landscapes they visited during travels
12:47:14 <Taneb> Group of people take picture of selves dressed as characters from a webcomic, in a shopping centre, put it on Facebook?
12:47:17 <Taneb> True story
12:47:24 <Taneb> Happened to me once
12:54:16 <Sgeo_> I need to learn how to avoid global variables
12:55:31 <Sgeo_> Whenever I look at Tcl, I keep thinking that I should be looking at Lisp
12:57:53 <Sgeo_> http://wiki.tcl.tk/13410
12:58:34 <Sgeo_> As interesting as most of that is, "OMG YOU DON'T NEED TO CALL ANY FUNCTIONS TO SERIALIZE TCL DATA STRUCTURES" is ... not at all impressive
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13:03:01 <kallisti> Sgeo_: you don't need to call any functions to serialize bash data structures either.
13:03:08 <kallisti> (actually that may not be true of bash arrays. not sure)
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13:03:27 <Sgeo_> Bash has arrays? Are they like Tcl's arrays?
13:03:33 <kallisti> I doubt it
13:03:46 <Sgeo_> You do need to call something to serialize Tcl's arrays since they're not first-class
13:03:55 <kallisti> I'm not sure that bash arrays are "first class"
13:03:58 <Sgeo_> Array just a collection of variables named in a certain way, really
13:04:30 <Sgeo_> Fine, here's a good difference between Bash and Tcl: Bash has ``, Tcl has []
13:04:37 <Sgeo_> Which makes more sense for nesting commands?
13:04:56 <kallisti> `` is considered deprecated
13:04:59 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `: not found
13:05:00 <kallisti> you should use $() instead
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13:05:09 <Sgeo_> Ah
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13:06:45 <kallisti> I believe $() is a standard Bourne feature as well
13:06:48 <kallisti> and avoids quote hell
13:07:08 <kallisti> a non-standard feature that avoids quote hell: you can put a $ in front a '' literal to get proper escape sequences
13:07:17 <kallisti> ``run echo $SHELL
13:07:20 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `run: not found
13:07:27 <kallisti> `run echo $SHELL
13:07:30 <HackEgo> ​/bin/sh
13:07:38 <kallisti> `run echo $'don\'t'
13:07:41 <HackEgo> don't
13:07:52 <kallisti> without the $ you have to do
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13:08:01 <kallisti> `run echo 'don'\''t'
13:08:04 <HackEgo> don't
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13:09:22 <kallisti> I think programmers should come together and standardize a keyboard character set
13:09:59 <kallisti> not necessarily a standard /layout/, but a new set of characters that you could expect to find on a specialized "programmer's keyboard"
13:10:48 <Taneb> Have you been reading about APL?
13:10:50 <kallisti> so we can have more than 4 kinds of bracket-like symbols
13:10:52 <kallisti> Taneb: no
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13:12:03 <Taneb> APL, the language where life←{↑1 ⍵∨.∧3 4=+/,¯1 0 1∘.⊖¯1 0 1∘.⌽⊂⍵} can make sense
13:13:24 <kallisti> I suppose you could call it a "keyset"
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13:13:42 <kallisti> a set of characters that should be conveniently expressable by a programmer's input means
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13:14:15 <kallisti> which is a combination of the physical hardware (such as keyboards), and the capabilities of software (specialized keyboard layouts, emulators, and text editor support)
13:14:27 <Taneb> Beyond extended ascii?
13:14:35 <kallisti> yes
13:15:03 <kallisti> a common point that many languages reach in the design of their syntax is: welp, we've run out of convenient characters
13:15:08 <kallisti> this happens too quickly, imo.
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13:19:58 <itidus21> this doesn't happen to nikolaus wirth
13:21:10 <itidus21> but on the other hand it can go crazy
13:22:42 <itidus21> at least few languages as yet make commands out of strings of punctuation
13:23:45 <itidus21> such as, &($#, ^*&^, @(@(@, (&$*(*$, !(&(*, ^(&*^$%^$#)
13:26:08 <itidus21> basically, the 1 character per keyword idea
13:26:16 <itidus21> is itself quite a constraint
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14:55:15 <nooga> aaaaaaaarr
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14:55:35 <fizzie> nooga: Are you sure you do not mean "hello" or something. That's conventional.
14:59:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Has anyone here ever heard of Elephant 6 (correct answer is no, elliott need not answer).
14:59:55 <elliott> hi
15:00:02 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Sounds like you've heard of it.
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15:00:17 <Phantom_Hoover> CRYPTIC
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15:14:32 <Sgeo_> I was under the impression most BF implementations don't allow going past the left edge
15:14:36 <Sgeo_> I guess I was wrong? http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/xiwno/a_file_that_is_a_windows_executable_a_pdf/c5n3rn4?context=3
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15:15:42 <fizzie> Sgeo_: Perhaps you should do a survey and make a table of interpreter properties.
15:15:50 <fizzie> All I've seen on the topic has been mostly guesswork.
15:16:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo_, if so, most interpreters are crap.
15:16:43 <fizzie> It's not unheard-of not to allow it.
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15:20:53 <Sgeo_> Eternity's Shylock is still a fantastic song
15:21:26 <Sgeo_> (Note: Googling will likely be Homestuck spoilers)
15:21:51 <fizzie> Speaking of songs, there's a Jeroen Tel concert here tomorrow, some of you might have heard of him.
15:22:52 <fizzie> (And Googling will not be Homestuck spoilers, even.)
15:26:31 <Sgeo_> Non-spoilery way to listen: http://assets.tumblr.com/swf/audio_player.swf?audio_file=http://www.tumblr.com/audio_file/architectural-perfection/28245664979/tumblr_m7wnn9HLah1qm8n2a&color=FFFFFF
15:27:02 <Sgeo_> Well, I assume that the music's non-spoilery
15:27:05 <Sgeo_> Maybe due to motifs?
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16:20:09 <kallisti> Phantom_Hoover: so apparently "Asian" in the UK means south asian?
16:20:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes.
16:20:18 <kallisti> and excludes east asians?
16:20:20 <kallisti> huh. interesting
16:20:36 <Phantom_Hoover> No, but if you say 'Asian' the default meaning is south Asian.
16:20:58 <Phantom_Hoover> And you'd probably have to clarify if you meant east asians.
16:21:12 <kallisti> I'm pretty sure most americans don't consider indians and "middle easterners" to be asian.
16:21:19 <kallisti> it mostly means east asian here.
16:22:26 <kallisti> but the census does include indians under the category asian.
16:23:15 <kallisti> "Statistics Norway considers people of Asian background to be people from all Asian countries.[11][12]"
16:23:19 <kallisti> Norway, always the sensible one.
16:24:18 <kallisti> "The Canadian Census' list of Visible Minorities includes "West Asian", "South Asian" and "Southeast Asian".[6] The Canadian government uses "West Asian" in its statistics; however people from the Arab countries are counted in a separate "Arab" category.[7][8]"
16:24:24 <kallisti> why. why do we make these arbitrary cultural categories.
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17:07:48 <fizzie> Spam subject (paraphrasing, accidentally deleted it already): "We care about your Education american education".
17:07:58 <fizzie> So they care about my education, but only if it's an American education.
17:09:57 <Sgeo_> No, clearly, your name is american education.
17:12:45 <fizzie> So... an American education consists only of telling people my name? Well, at least they know how to prioritize.
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18:57:26 <Sgeo_> Scheme is simple but highly fragmented, and Common Lisp is complex and creeky but has a semi-unified ecosystem
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18:58:17 <Sgeo_> Also Lisp has no non-hacky coroutines
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18:58:53 <shachaf> Nor does Scheme, unless you count continuations-as-coroutines as non-hacky.
19:01:20 <oerjan> <Sgeo_> Is it just me, or is the bus factor of the current Common Lisp ecosystem ONE? <-- bus factor?
19:01:59 <fizzie> oerjan: The amount of people using public transit, like poor people do, as opposed to taxis or limos with drivers or helicopters or such.
19:02:07 <Sgeo_> oerjan, how many specific people who, if hit by a bus, would cause the project to be severely damaged or end
19:02:19 <Sgeo_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_factor
19:02:41 <oerjan> ah.
19:03:12 <Sgeo_> Well, my actual use-case for coroutines or continuations etc. is just using asynchronous stuff in a synchronous-looking way
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19:06:12 <Sgeo_> Obviously, if Xach were hit by a bus, Common Lisp would continue to exist, but afaict, he's the sole maintainer of Quicklisp, which is THE repository that Common Lispers use for all package stuff
19:19:08 <kmc> you know what currency they use in bosnia?
19:19:13 <kmc> the deutschmark.
19:19:37 <oerjan> i find this... unlikely.
19:19:44 <oerjan> surely you mean euro.
19:19:54 <kmc> no
19:20:01 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnia_and_Herzegovina_convertible_mark
19:21:08 <kmc> also they have one set of bills for Serbs and another for Bosniaks
19:22:57 <oerjan> naturally.
19:23:12 <fizzie> Do the bills annihilate if they come into contact?
19:23:29 <kmc> it's pegged to the Deutschmark which is pegged to the Euro
19:23:37 <kmc> the former peg is 1:1
19:23:43 <shachaf> heegan
19:23:55 <kmc> i don't remember if deutschmarks are still redeemable for euros, but anyway there are old DM values in contracts
19:24:09 <oerjan> montenegro, otoh, uses euros
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19:24:28 <kmc> yeah
19:24:35 <kmc> without the permission or approval of the ECB
19:24:40 <kmc> i was just there
19:24:53 <shachaf> You need permission to use Euros?
19:25:10 <kmc> no, montenegro uses them without permission
19:25:17 <oerjan> q.e.d.!
19:25:23 <kmc> yup
19:26:59 <Sgeo_> shachaf, what's your opinion of Tcl?
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19:29:55 <shachaf> I was visiting a friend yesterday and I renamed his cat Simon Marlow.
19:29:56 <kmc> also a lot of people in albanda would take euros
19:30:08 <kmc> and it seemed to be the default for anything over like US$100
19:30:34 <kmc> albania*
19:34:25 <kmc> gotta go to bosnia, bbl
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20:03:02 <Phantom_Hoover> bosnda
20:19:55 <Sgeo_> The Prototypes with Multiple Inheritance seems to have broken my brain. I used to like the idea, now I dislike it just because I see its motivation can be fulfilled even without the prototype part
20:20:08 <Sgeo_> I think both of these opinions are not entirely reasonable.
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21:18:52 <Taneb> Hello!
21:19:05 <oerjan> eek, a Taneb
21:19:24 <Taneb> The monitor for my desktop has stopped working...
21:19:39 <Taneb> It doesn't turn on and when the power's in it makes a clicking sound
21:20:04 <Taneb> :(
21:21:30 <Taneb> Of course, when we got it, the world trade centre had twin towers
21:21:39 <oerjan> click beetle stuck on the circuit board, that's the only explanation
21:21:53 <Taneb> Of course!
21:22:02 <Taneb> I'll rescue it in the morning
21:22:30 <Taneb> It was one of the best monitors you could get in 2000
21:23:17 <Taneb> 1280 x 1024 px
21:28:34 <Gregor> “I feel stupid. I'm showing up with a gun to an artillery fight. That's like showing up with a rocket launcher to a tactical warhead fight.”
21:31:11 * oerjan shows up with a fork to a knife fight
21:32:39 * Taneb shows up with a spoon to a fork fight
21:33:17 * Gregor shows up with his tongue to a spoon fight
21:34:59 <oerjan> kinky!
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21:49:10 <oerjan> :t state
21:49:11 <lambdabot> forall s a. (s -> (a, s)) -> State s a
21:49:16 <oerjan> :t writer
21:49:17 <lambdabot> forall a w. (a, w) -> Writer w a
21:51:02 <Taneb> @unmtl Writer
21:51:02 <lambdabot> Plugin `unmtl' failed with: `Writer' is not applied to enough arguments, giving `/\A B. (B, A)'
21:51:15 <Taneb> @unmtl Writer [()] Int
21:51:15 <lambdabot> (Int, [()])
21:51:37 <Taneb> @unmtl MaybeT (Writer (Sum Int)) Bool
21:51:37 <lambdabot> (Maybe Bool, Sum Int)
21:51:46 * oerjan is looking at http://stackoverflow.com/questions/11684321/how-to-play-with-control-monad-writer-in-haskell btw
21:51:48 <Taneb> @unmtl ConT (Writer (Sum Int)) Bool
21:51:49 <lambdabot> ConT (Writer (Sum Int)) Bool
21:52:48 <oerjan> it seems lambdabot has the change where Writer and WriterT were merged and separate writer functions were made to replace the olde Writer constructor
21:53:19 <Taneb> @unmtl WriterT (Sum Int) [] Bool
21:53:19 <lambdabot> [(Bool, Sum Int)]
21:53:26 <oerjan> but it does _not_ have the latest change where writer and state were made into methods of the MonadWriter / MonadState classes so you can use them even more generally
21:53:31 <oerjan> :t reader
21:53:33 <lambdabot> forall r a. (r -> a) -> Reader r a
21:53:42 <oerjan> :t asks
21:53:43 <lambdabot> forall r a (m :: * -> *). (MonadReader r m) => (r -> a) -> m a
21:54:12 <oerjan> i'm not sure if reader has been generalized like that, i think it would be just a synonym for asks
21:54:39 <oerjan> (@unmtl probably knows nothing about any of that)
21:54:59 <oerjan> Taneb: *ContT
21:55:05 <Taneb> Heh
21:55:09 <Taneb> @unmtl ContT (Writer (Sum Int)) Bool
21:55:09 <lambdabot> Plugin `unmtl' failed with: `ContT (Writer (Sum Int)) Bool' is not applied to enough arguments, giving `/\A. (A -> Bool (Writer (Sum Int))) -> Bool (Writer (Sum Int))'
21:55:19 <Taneb> @unmtl ContT Word8 (Writer (Sum Int)) Bool
21:55:20 <lambdabot> (Bool -> (Word8, Sum Int)) -> (Word8, Sum Int)
21:56:02 <oerjan> :t cont
21:56:04 <lambdabot> forall a r. ((a -> r) -> r) -> Cont r a
21:56:13 <Taneb> Why is there the split between mtl and transformers
21:56:34 <oerjan> i don't think cont can be made a method
21:57:48 <oerjan> Taneb: iirc transformers contains the part that doesn't require fancy type stuff like functional dependencies
21:58:26 <oerjan> i think there's an alternative to mtl which uses type families on top of transformers instead, for those who like that
21:59:22 <Taneb> Hmm
21:59:46 <Taneb> What extensions are on the cards for becoming part of Haskell proper next report?
22:00:14 <oerjan> i dunno, is there any progress on the next report revision at all?
22:00:46 <Taneb> No idea :(
22:02:23 <oerjan> i'm not following anything other than reddit for haskell news at present
22:03:07 <oerjan> there have been several recent interesting additions to ghc, but they will of course take decades to become official ;)
22:04:08 <Taneb> Maybe when I'm a supervillain
22:04:33 <oerjan> nah, not that soon
22:04:49 <Taneb> Maybe when I'm the evil league of evil
22:05:15 * oerjan isn't sure whether there's an "in" missing there
22:05:27 <oerjan> with supervillains, one can never be sure
22:06:01 <Taneb> Indeed
22:07:18 <Taneb> But maybe when I'm a supervillain, I'll be helping implement the features
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22:35:54 <oerjan> the ghost of Tanebs past
22:36:57 <quintopia> the ghost of Tanebs passed :/
22:37:22 <oerjan> that it did
22:39:29 <Taneb> I think that means it's time for me to go to bed, only to be awoken firstly by the ghost of my dead coworker, then three other ghosts representing periods of history, for the purpose of making me a better person
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00:39:02 <Sgeo_> "In all honesty and speaking as someone who used C++ professionally for years -- C++ has passed the point of usefulness. I have heard people say that Ada was a language designed by a committee to prove that not all programming languages can be implemented, it is overly complex and difficult to understand, yet it is a model of simplicity and elegance compared to C++, which in its latest incarnation also demonstrates the pristine and readable
00:39:02 <Sgeo_> qualities of APL. Frankly, C++ should have its head cut off and its head and body buried at a crossroad with garlic in its mouth and a stake though its heart. That probably won't kill it, but it should slow it down somewhat. Nowadays I would never start a project in C++ that I ever thought I'd need to finish. I'd rather do it in something simpler and more portable. Like assembler."
00:41:38 <Phantom_Hoover> wow what an original opinion
00:42:28 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean it's not a bad screed, but why did you paste it?
00:42:38 * Sgeo_ thought it was amusing
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02:16:10 <Sgeo_> What languages have Smalltalk-like IDEs?
02:16:17 <Sgeo_> Smalltalk and Tcl at least
02:16:28 <Sgeo_> Although the Tcl ones probably aren't well-maintained
02:22:57 <zzo38> I don't know
02:46:48 <itidus21> Tcl does.
02:47:17 <itidus21> And Smalltalk itself, by definition has a Smalltalk-like IDE
02:54:30 <zzo38> What does BIG talk have?
02:55:42 <itidus21> `pastelogs big
02:55:49 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.31651
02:56:18 <itidus21> <SamB> X is much bigger then Y -- this really says so much with so few words
02:57:49 <itidus21> ok can do better
02:57:58 <itidus21> `pastelogs big.*big
02:58:31 <HackEgo> No output.
02:58:34 <itidus21> `pastelogs big.*big
02:58:59 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.22129
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02:59:28 <itidus21> ... not enough
02:59:37 <itidus21> we must give her all she's got
02:59:45 <itidus21> `pastelogs big.*big.*big
02:59:54 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.9313
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03:06:58 <itidus21> `pastelogs bigtalk
03:07:05 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.27446
03:07:42 <itidus21> it's probably on a drawingboard somewhere
03:12:00 <itidus21> one of those programming language designers who uses drawing boards
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03:24:34 <zzo38> What assembler features did you like to have in assemblers?
03:32:25 <itidus21> "A man standing at a drawing board with Lets Draw written above" http://image1.masterfile.com/em_w/03/47/29/608-03472993fw.jpg
03:34:28 <itidus21> @google "A man standing at a drawing board with Lets Draw written above"
03:34:31 <lambdabot> http://www.inmagine.com/izs015/izs015555-photo
03:34:31 <lambdabot> Title: A Man Standing At A Drawing Board With Lets Draw Written Above Stock Photos / Pi ...
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03:39:59 <shachaf> hellio, elliott!
03:40:21 <shachaf> `WELCOME elliott
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09:02:43 <Taneb> Hello!
09:02:54 <Taneb> Hang on
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09:03:24 <Taneb> Hello!
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09:11:42 <mroman> Hang on.
09:25:02 <kmc> stand by for transmission
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09:35:42 <mroman> Roger.
09:35:50 <mroman> Can you repeat that? Over.
09:36:28 <kmc> delta oscar november golf sierra
09:39:20 <mroman> Romeo Oscar Golf Echo Romeo
09:43:57 <Taneb> Hotel India
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09:50:56 <kmc> foxtrot foxtrot foxtrot foxtrot foxtrot foxtrot foxtrot
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10:18:05 <ion> uniform uniform uniform uniform uniform uniform uniform uniform
10:19:14 <kmc> c dot c
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11:41:41 <Taneb> Hello
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12:07:26 <Sgeo__> TclTalk seems fun
12:16:20 <Sgeo__> Ugh, it uses a non-Tcl-standard way of initializing variables in namespaces
12:16:41 <Sgeo__> I mean, it makes sense, because [namespace eval] stuff isn't exactly stored anywhere available for introspection, but still
12:17:48 <Sgeo__> Bluh, the single-dispatchness of Tcl OO systems in general is striking me again
12:20:07 <nooga> does somebody know the name of this constructed script that was based on 3x3 grid of letters
12:20:42 <nooga> and the characters were constructed from the cell edges with longer or shorter lines
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13:02:23 <kmc> google maps has very bad coverage in bosnia & herzegovina
13:02:36 <kmc> but (probably not by coincidence) openstreetmaps has exceptionally good coverage
13:02:55 <Sgeo__> Just because I like TclTalk doesn't mean I should start looking at Smalltalk again, does it
13:02:56 <Sgeo__> ?
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13:04:27 <kmc> make something interesting in whatever language seems appropriate for the job
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13:05:04 <Taneb> Hello
13:06:48 <kmc> hi
13:07:49 <itidus21> Sgeo__: if you were me, you would only be contented with an IDE which only exists undesigned in your imagination and find everything else has faults
13:08:40 <itidus21> eventually along this train of thought you would realize that any program would be imperfect
13:09:03 <Sgeo__> Smalltalk-like IDEs tend to let you change the IDE while it's running
13:09:22 <Sgeo__> So you could probably make it to your satisfaction
13:09:25 <Taneb> Smalltalk's the really object oriented one, right?
13:09:30 <Sgeo__> Yeah
13:09:33 <Sgeo__> (Class-based)
13:09:38 <Sgeo__> And image-based
13:10:17 <Taneb> Should it be on my list of languages to learn eventually?
13:10:52 <Sgeo__> EVERYTHING should be on your list of languages to learn eventually. Except PHP.
13:11:37 <quintopia> and algol 68
13:11:49 <Phantom_Hoover> And COBOL.
13:12:17 <Taneb> What about NetFuck?
13:12:29 <Sgeo__> Phantom_Hoover, hey, COBOL's fun!
13:12:31 <Sgeo__> </lies>
13:12:54 <Sgeo__> But... it's interesting to see an.... old model for programming
13:13:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Learn FORTRAN then!
13:14:12 <Sgeo__> Although I could describe the thing that sticks out the most to me: ALL variables must be declared in one section of the code. COBOL procedures (I forget what they're called) do not accept arguments, instead, they must look at and modify some of the declared variables.
13:14:14 <quintopia> or algol 60 (which doesnt suck how algol 68 does)
13:19:13 <Taneb> COBOL was the language my parents used
13:19:37 <Sgeo__> Taneb, you should learn Tcl
13:19:56 <Taneb> I thought that was a protocol?
13:20:01 <Sgeo__> That's TCP
13:20:05 <Taneb> Ah
13:20:26 <Sgeo__> http://www.tcl.tk/
13:20:39 <Sgeo__> Note that opinion in this channel does seem to be divided about it
13:21:05 <Taneb> Is Tcl the one with tk?
13:21:16 <Sgeo__> Yes
13:24:02 <kmc> learning about the siege of sarajevo makes me think it might not be such a crazy idea to stockpile years worth of food, medicine, etc.
13:24:50 <kmc> in the USA there is a general tendency to make fun of people who do this
13:24:57 <kmc> i bet that tendency does not exist in bosnia anymore
13:29:02 <Phantom_Hoover> In Bosnia a domestic war was a very likely possibility.
13:29:08 <Phantom_Hoover> In the US? Not so much.
13:29:12 <kmc> more likely than the USA, yeah
13:31:33 <kmc> but how many residents of sarajevo in 1984 -- when the city was hosting the Olympics -- would believe that in 8 years time they'd be under daily attack by artillery and snipers?
13:31:48 <kmc> i don't really know
13:32:20 <Phantom_Hoover> You could say the same thing of Germany in 1936.
13:32:29 <kmc> yeah
13:34:00 <Taneb> How many people in London 1940 would believe that in only 8 years they'd be hosting the olympics?
13:34:11 <kmc> or beirut in the 60's
13:34:32 <kmc> Taneb: heh, i like your reversal :)
13:35:05 <kmc> in early 1940 it was not totally clear that wwii was going to be a big deal
13:35:56 <kmc> i think these things sneak up on people
13:36:05 <Phantom_Hoover> I think if you were discussing the crazy survivalist angle with someone you could make a good case for war reaching Germany being possible.
13:36:15 <kmc> people who are enjoying prosperity for the time being, and who are more concerned with their daily lives than geopolitics
13:38:07 <kmc> this is an instance of the fat tails phenomenon
13:38:23 <kmc> people underestimate the probability of unlikely events
13:38:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Unless they've invested time and resources into preparing for them, in which case they'll overestimate.
13:39:01 <kmc> sure
13:39:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Also I think one reason the survivalists get mocked is because many of them don't have a clue what they're doing (just ask quintopia about his gold reserves).
13:39:54 <kmc> sure
13:39:59 <kmc> many of them are crazy, for sure
13:41:08 <kmc> building a fortified NBC-proof bunker in your backyard is probably crazy :)
13:41:18 <kmc> but stashing away some food and water is not that crazy, or expensive
13:41:25 <kmc> even if you don't expect to use it
13:41:45 <kmc> in disaster-prone areas this is a normal thing to do, but with like 1-2 weeks worth
13:42:14 <kmc> which will not do you much good in a prolonged armed conflict
13:43:25 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: i dont have any gold reserves. its still a better idea than bitcoin reserves.
13:43:55 <Phantom_Hoover> That second sentence might make sense if anyone actually stockpiled bitcoins.
13:44:14 <quintopia> funny thing is...some people do
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13:44:25 <fizzie> There's a bitcoin thing-thing here this year.
13:44:48 <Phantom_Hoover> quintopia, if they started doing it earlier, they're richer now than anyone who put it into gold.
13:44:51 <fizzie> You collect hidden QR codes and send something like 0.0005 BTC to each address you find.
13:45:06 <fizzie> Who finds most gets a 5 BTC physical coin-thing (or whatever) and things.
13:45:43 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: not necessarily. have you compared the rise in gold prices over the last twenty years?
13:46:39 <Phantom_Hoover> No, but I somehow doubt there's been a 30-fold increase in the span of a year.
13:49:21 <itidus21> i am afraid of bitcoin myself
13:50:03 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, is the physical coin thing the necessary cryptographic information on a chip or something?
13:50:09 <Taneb> I've never seen anywhere that takes bitcoin?
13:50:33 <itidus21> i have no desire to help anyone get rich by advancing bitcoin
13:51:06 <Gregor> My greatest fear in gold reserves is that at some point, we'll look at ourselves as a species, and decide it's time to stop worshiping valueless shiny rocks.
13:51:09 <itidus21> and i like currencies which have evolved slowly and found some degree of balance
13:51:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, invest in tantalum!!!
13:51:46 <Phantom_Hoover> It's shiny but also vital for microelectronics!
13:52:35 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: I don't know, but I guess I can check.
13:52:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Or rhodium, which AFAIK is a really good investment because it's incredibly rare and incredibly useful as a catalyst.
13:53:37 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: It's just a piece of paper in a "tamper-proof" seal.
13:53:39 <fizzie> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Casascius_physical_bitcoins
13:53:42 <fizzie> One of those.
13:53:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Dammit.
13:53:59 <kmc> isn't energy the best investment?
13:54:05 <itidus21> my view of survivalism, money, reserves and life is that no matter what we do about all of these things, we are always at risk of dying due to some event we cannot predict or control
13:54:06 <kmc> store your wealth by pumping water to the top of a hill
13:54:07 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, a piece of *paper*?
13:54:16 <Phantom_Hoover> You'd need a big hill.
13:54:34 <kmc> itidus21: that's why i don't wear my seatbelt when i ride in a car
13:54:44 <kmc> i mean, you might die anyway, so there is no point in doing anything to decrease the chance of it
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13:54:49 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: I've understood people do Bitcoin "paper wallets" to avoid those dastardly hackers.
13:54:57 <itidus21> kmc: oh i go out of my way to decrease the chances of it ..
13:55:35 <itidus21> i have known people who genuinely don't seem to care
13:55:48 <fizzie> The people doing the thing also mentioned the first restaurant in Helsinki to accept BTC just opened recently.
13:56:11 <itidus21> like when i would take my time before crossing a road, he would mention something about that
13:57:14 <itidus21> or i have even been told of by someone when i was younger for wearing seatbelt
13:58:08 <Sgeo__> itidus21, kmc's point is that survivalism is another way of going out of your way to decrease your chances of dying.
13:58:14 <itidus21> hmm...
13:58:25 <itidus21> im also an asshole
13:58:43 <itidus21> its the only explanation
13:59:02 <Sgeo__> I have to admit those "physical bitcoins" are pretty
13:59:19 <itidus21> well.... collecting food is good
13:59:41 <itidus21> someone once suggested to me that at such times the valuable things are food and guns
14:00:38 <Phantom_Hoover> And ammunition.
14:01:09 <itidus21> maybe thats an over simplified view they put though
14:03:24 <itidus21> i keep imagining gold containing chocolate
14:03:39 <itidus21> damn those foil wrapped coins
14:03:50 <Taneb> itidus21, invest in cocoa
14:04:04 <itidus21> it brings mice
14:04:15 <itidus21> at least if its not sealed properly
14:04:24 <kmc> gotta seal ur food
14:04:34 <itidus21> darn it
14:05:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Wrap all your food in gold so that even if someone manages to steal it they'll just discard it as worthless gold.
14:05:53 <itidus21> hmm ok im catching up
14:06:15 <itidus21> so the point of the gold reserves is if the economy crashes you still have something of value
14:06:27 <itidus21> and not implying a war scenario
14:06:54 <Phantom_Hoover> I think it's also because some people still think it has inherent value.
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14:07:42 <itidus21> i wonder if it does
14:07:50 <kmc> i think you'd be better off investing in barterable skills
14:08:43 <kmc> even if gold retains some "intrinsic value", there is going to be much less demand and liquidity in gold markets after an economic collapse
14:08:52 <kmc> especially because you lose the infrastructure which makes markets work
14:09:15 <itidus21> women often like tradesmen, they're fit and always find work
14:09:21 <kmc> whereas if you can, say, perform basic medical procedures, or repair automobiles and convert them to run on wood gas
14:09:26 <kmc> then i think you're set
14:10:10 <itidus21> kmc: there is no counter argument.
14:10:18 <kmc> on a barely related note, it seems that about 50% of cars in albania are 90's mercedes
14:10:29 <kmc> i don't know why
14:10:31 <itidus21> whoa
14:10:48 <kmc> maybe during the communist era, the ability to import a german luxury car was a great sign of power and wealth
14:11:11 <itidus21> oh i saw a video about russian video games yesterday
14:11:17 <kmc> and somehow mercedes caught on versus other brands
14:11:22 <itidus21> rather video games sold in russia
14:11:31 <kmc> and now it's easy to get one, but status symbols are sticky
14:11:38 <itidus21> they had super mario bros 1 - 16 for the dendy
14:11:39 <kmc> this is also why everything is covered in bright blue LEDs these days
14:12:30 <itidus21> i wonder why blue is cooler than green
14:13:18 <kmc> "Among the games was the Super Mario Bros. series, which included the three original Mario productions from Nintendo, along with a series of unlicensed Mario games, most of which were just other Famicom games with the main character replaced with Mario sprites."
14:13:41 <kmc> itidus21: blue LEDs were still expensive at a time when red and green LEDs were cheap
14:13:58 <kmc> so they became a signifier of expensive quality electronics
14:14:05 <itidus21> as it turns out, the russians were led to believe that all of these games were actually canonical mario games
14:14:08 <kmc> now they are cheap and are found all over cheap kwality electronics
14:15:07 <itidus21> and on a tv show, when joe and mac was being reviewed they said that joe and mac was merely a pirate copy of super mario 16 with the sprite of a caveman
14:15:49 <kmc> it's the same with laser pointers, except that green is subjectively much brighter at the same output power
14:16:05 <kmc> so i think ludicrously overpowered green lasers are still the main coveted nerd-toy in this area
14:16:12 <Sgeo__> I guess computer programming is not a barterable skill
14:16:21 <kmc> but blu-ray-based purple lasers that can set stuff on fire are also popular
14:16:25 <Sgeo__> Unless somehow we end up in Alpha Complex
14:16:29 <kmc> Sgeo__: it depends but probably not
14:17:06 <kmc> the ability to hack whatever computing equipment is left over after the apocalypse into basic automation stuff would be useful
14:17:14 <itidus21> my understanding of nature isn't good enough to predict how knowledge of computation could be lost
14:17:14 <kmc> also telecommunications
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14:17:21 <kmc> ham radio and maybe long-distance wifi
14:17:29 <kmc> it depends on the type of apocalypse though
14:17:41 <kmc> if most people die off, automation will be valuable
14:17:49 <itidus21> like, predicting the actual future is a super-complex problem
14:17:54 <kmc> if there is a surplus of people, then not so much
14:17:57 <itidus21> yes im making up these words
14:18:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Um, wait.
14:18:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Automation is necessary for large numbers of people, not small ones.
14:18:43 <itidus21> not predicting one event in the future, but predicting the collective events leading to some future moment
14:25:07 <itidus21> albania google maps looks like it was done by people walking along the streets on foot
14:25:22 <itidus21> ^street view
14:27:28 <Phantom_Hoover> maybe google were driving on the pavement
14:27:32 <kmc> it looks to me like they don't have actual street view
14:27:38 <kmc> just geo-tagged photos taken by random people
14:27:52 <itidus21> i like it
14:28:04 <kmc> i don't know where they scrape these from
14:28:56 <kmc> the bus through albania stopped at a truck stop which only had squat toilets
14:29:12 <kmc> this would not be such a problem except that a lot of the people using them apparently did not know how to use squat toilets
14:29:17 <itidus21> i was contemplating the other day that street view must have an enormous fuel budget
14:29:22 <kmc> so there was a lot of shit all over the floor
14:32:01 <itidus21> are these 90's mercedes? https://ssl.panoramio.com/photo/75112590
14:32:45 <kmc> also the mercedes thing was observed mostly in Shkodra so it may not hold in other cities
14:33:08 <itidus21> that looks like a mercedes on the left of that pic at a guess
14:33:23 <kmc> the big one won't load for me
14:33:26 <kmc> maybe it wants frash prugin
14:33:32 <itidus21> me neither
14:33:36 <itidus21> screw it
14:34:03 <itidus21> ill make it happen though via another means
14:34:10 <itidus21> cos clearly i have nothing better to do
14:34:44 <kmc> itidus21: you should check out the pyramid at 41.323411,19.821246
14:36:03 <itidus21> http://oi50.tinypic.com/11lmyjs.jpg
14:36:53 <kmc> it looks much shitter now than most of these photos
14:37:08 <kmc> this one's about right:
14:37:18 <fizzie> Aren't the Google Maps photos from Panoramio? At least that's what I thought.
14:37:29 <kmc> too blurry to tell itidus21
14:37:34 <itidus21> ok
14:37:59 <fizzie> Also they have a walk-around streetview camera, the blog mentioned it.
14:38:01 <itidus21> i did go with jpeg, via microsoft paint, so even if it was a good pic before who knows
14:38:06 <fizzie> Though only for places where you can't drive a car to.
14:38:42 <fizzie> http://i1-news.softpedia-static.com/images/news-700/The-Google-Street-View-Car-Now-Fits-into-a-Backpack.jpg
14:38:45 <fizzie> That thing.
14:39:09 <kmc> reminds me of http://www.pcworld.com/article/241960/throw_this_camera_ball_to_take_a_360degree_panorama.html
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14:40:06 <kmc> "So the ball captures images once reaches its maximum arc because it is almost at a stand still as its velocity and the gravity acting on it are at equilibrium."
14:40:12 <kmc> good job pcworld writer person
14:40:56 <Phantom_Hoover> How can it tell if it's at the top of the arc?
14:41:33 <fizzie> Here's a panorama which I made from a ball that was already there: http://xn--nxa.zem.fi/g2/d/16009-4/p1100262.jpg -> http://xn--nxa.zem.fi/g2/d/16203-2/p1100271-remapped.jpg
14:41:38 <fizzie> Okay, it's not very high-fidelity.
14:41:41 <kmc> i was going to say "accelerometer" but no, it's not that simple
14:41:50 <fizzie> The ball isn't actually spherical, and it's a bit dirty too.
14:41:52 <kmc> because the acceleration on the free ball is constant regardless of its velocity
14:42:13 <fizzie> It has a velocitometer, of course.
14:42:23 <kmc> possible
14:42:40 <fizzie> An heightometer.
14:42:59 <Sgeo__> Well, there's acceleration added by the thrower
14:43:04 <Sgeo__> If you just drop the ball, what happens?
14:43:16 <Sgeo__> Although that too would be detectable, hmm
14:43:25 <kmc> Sgeo__: the initial acceleration is (in theory) instantaneous
14:43:31 <kmc> once the ball leaves your hand, the only acceleration is gravity
14:43:43 <kmc> you could measure the initial acceleration and then dead-reckon the top point from that
14:44:24 <Sgeo__> Is it sad that the reason I know the term dead-reckoning is because of a book on Microsoft Flight Simulator that I had many years ago?
14:44:32 <kmc> no
14:44:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Mm, possibly.
14:44:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Very prone to calibration errors, though.
14:44:59 <kmc> what if you had like a marble inside a hollow chamber in the ball
14:45:07 <kmc> the marble would move to the other side of the chamber when the ball starts to fall, no?
14:45:25 <fizzie> kmc: Why would it?
14:45:31 <fizzie> Both have the same amount of acceleration downwards.
14:45:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, what fizzie said.
14:45:55 <Phantom_Hoover> The ball is in an inertial frame from leaving your hand to hitting the ground.
14:45:58 <kmc> "are you serious, it' acceleration is not a constant. If it's first derivative(velocity) is 0, then the second derivative(acceleration) HAS to be zero....the derivative of any constant is 0...
14:46:02 <kmc> FAIL...."
14:46:03 * kmc facepalm
14:46:44 <kmc> wish i could find the frikkin paper
14:46:53 <kmc> various people speculate that it integrates acceleration
14:47:37 <kmc> ok "Our camera contains an accelerometer which we use to measure launch acceleration. Integration lets us predict rise time to the highest point, where we trigger the exposure. "
14:47:40 <kmc> from the abstract
14:47:46 <kmc> http://jonaspfeil.de/ballcamera
14:48:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Booooring.
14:48:57 <fizzie> Yeah, it should use laser range-finding to estimate distances from the ground.
14:48:58 <kmc> yeah, it should bounce radio waves off the ground or something
14:49:02 <kmc> -_-
14:49:13 <fizzie> :/
14:49:31 <kmc> probably it doesn't matter too much to get the high point correct
14:49:41 <Phantom_Hoover> It should measure the CMB and calculate its velocity from the Doppler shift.
14:49:42 <kmc> as long as your are shooting daytime scenes with fast shutter speed
14:49:48 <fizzie> There's an app for the N900 (probably other phones too) which measures free-fall times, the idea being that you compete by throwing it into the air; the one who gets longest free-fall time wins.
14:50:08 <fizzie> They held a competition here a year or two back, IIRC.
14:50:13 <kmc> hahaha
14:50:20 <kmc> that is fantastic
14:50:24 <fizzie> It has a lot of disclaimers about the app-makers not being responsible for broken phones.
14:50:39 <kmc> were you allowed to put padding etc around it
14:50:45 <kmc> like the egg drop competitions of high school physics
14:51:00 <fizzie> The phones were supplied by the organizers, I believe.
14:51:17 <fizzie> I suppose you could make a padding-allowed house rule if you were playing it with your friends, though.
14:51:21 <itidus21> i imagine they could also make a variant where the ball records the entire arc and lets you replay it panoramically
14:51:49 <itidus21> maybe that would, like all my ideas, be shit in practice and make people throw up
14:53:24 <Sgeo__> I think I know how to give Tcl CL-style conditions.
14:53:33 <fizzie> http://maemo.org/downloads/product/Maemo5/n900fly/ is the app, I can't recall which year the competition was.
14:53:40 <Sgeo__> Unfortunately, it requires users to list which C-implemented commands can give errors.
14:54:07 <Sgeo__> OR! I could just wrap every single C-implemented command
14:54:08 <Phantom_Hoover> <kmc> like the egg drop competitions of high school physics
14:55:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Phone drop would probably be easier though, since the main thing that damages phones is their shape focusing the impact.
14:56:21 <kmc> sounds like a party Sgeo__
14:56:58 <Sgeo__> Might need to provide a command to tell the library to look for these commands
14:57:55 <Sgeo__> Everyone does agree that CL-style conditions are a good thing, right?
14:58:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah I'm behind it
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15:25:07 <Sgeo__> Maybe I should read up on Dylan's condition system, which apparently was based on CL but does... something different, I forget whar
15:25:08 <Sgeo__> what
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16:30:36 <Taneb> Hello
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16:42:21 <zzo38> Do you sometimes make useless schematic diagrams?
16:43:00 <Taneb> Probably
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17:04:39 <fizzie> Hey, there are Norwegians on the seminar floor.
17:04:43 <fizzie> What foolishness is this.
17:12:33 <zzo38> What is the most difficult sport?
17:12:42 <zzo38> My answer: Pool ball because the balls (including the white ball) are extremely difficult to hit, even though they aren't moving.
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17:13:36 -!- augur_ has changed nick to augur.
17:14:56 <fizzie> The most dangerous game.
17:17:43 <Slereah> http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=1488
17:18:01 <fizzie> Is what I was thinking about.
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17:26:57 <pikhq_> Oh, awesome, there's a *very* useful feature I missed. Linux's seccomp (a very simple sandboxing scheme) got extended somewhat.
17:27:05 <pikhq_> You can now hand it a list of system calls that are permitted.
17:28:00 <pikhq_> Oh, it's a little more complicated than that. You can filter based on the arguments too.
17:28:07 <Vorpal> nice
17:28:15 <Gregor> Yeah, I'm very intrigued.
17:28:35 <Gregor> Probably Google's doing, no doubt :)
17:28:49 <Vorpal> heh
17:28:54 <zzo38> You might sometimes want to override system calls with your own though, too?
17:29:34 <Gregor> Such a system would be considerably thicker even for non-users, so probably isn't going to happen.
17:29:49 <pikhq_> Gregor: It is, indeed, a Chrome dev.
17:29:50 <Vorpal> zzo38, presumably the feature is intended to contain programs written specifically to run under it, as opposed to being a general purpose sandbox mechanism
17:30:08 <Gregor> It's for GNC.
17:30:13 <Vorpal> Gregor, GNC?
17:30:18 <Gregor> Google Native Client.
17:30:21 <Vorpal> aah
17:30:32 <pikhq_> Yeah, they now use it.
17:30:45 <Gregor> They were actually thinking of dropping seccomp, then GNC went “NO NO WANT” and then this happened.
17:30:50 <Vorpal> might be useful for the normal sandboxing that chrome does anyway
17:30:56 <pikhq_> Probably is.
17:31:06 <pikhq_> This actually makes native client-esque things *really easy*.
17:31:55 <fizzie> Wasn't Chrome's plugin thing on the old seccomp or something?
17:32:17 <fizzie> "Chrome 20 On Linux Gives Seccomp Filters For Flash" says Google.
17:32:22 <fizzie> (The search, not the company.)
17:32:54 <Sgeo__> What's done for Windows?
17:33:19 <fizzie> (Also don't they canonically and puntastically abbreviate that thing as NaCl?)
17:33:27 <pikhq_> fizzie: Yes.
17:34:32 <pikhq_> Sgeo__: Segmentation to restrict the address space code can access, an ABI designed so they can statically verify certain things.
17:35:16 <fizzie> I just remember the nop-padding so that all branch targets are divisible by something so that they can guarantee nothing jumps in the middle of an opcode.
17:35:17 <Gregor> fizzie: Yes, they do, but I refuse.
17:35:19 <Gregor> On the grounds that no.
17:35:32 <fizzie> Natrium Client. Native Chloride.
17:35:35 <pikhq_> fizzie: Yeah, that's part of it.
17:35:55 <fizzie> That's for NaCl, though; do they do any sandboxing for the Flash plugin on Windows?
17:36:38 <pikhq_> The Pepper plugin API runs under NaCl, yes.
17:37:08 <fizzie> Ah, it's part of the same thing.
17:37:21 <Gregor> http://blogs.valvesoftware.com/linux/faster-zombies/ Valve sez: OpenGL is faster than Direct3D... even on Windows.
17:37:32 <pikhq_> Gregor: They are using DirectX 9, though.
17:37:48 <fizzie> It's a nice URL.
17:37:52 <pikhq_> Which is Microsoft's old shit that they only keep around for backwards compatibility.
17:38:21 <Gregor> pikhq_: Uh, then why are they using it?
17:38:30 <pikhq_> Gregor: Newer versions don't work on XP.
17:38:36 <pikhq_> Because Microsoft is a bunch of assholes.
17:38:48 <fizzie> There was an "advanced DirectX 11" seminar 30 metres to the left few hours ago, with Smash/Fairlight speaking. It was... popular.
17:38:51 <zzo38> I do have idea make a different kind of computer, there is no operating system but BIOS calls require NMI which also enables the other hardware to be used, or you can move a jumper to always enable the other hardware and disable the security system (which, other than this, is similar to a UNIX security). You can move another jumper to reflash the BIOS ROM if you want to change it.
17:38:59 <pikhq_> (this is the first time they've made a version of DirectX that *doesn't* work on older Windows, FWIW)
17:39:23 <zzo38> What version of DirectX works only on Windows 8?
17:39:57 <pikhq_> Dunno. DirectX 11.1 ships with it, but they might intend to do a release for Windows 7 at some point.
17:40:43 <fizzie> pikhq_: DirectX 9 isn't available for Windows 95; 8.0a is newest. Or so they say.
17:41:18 <pikhq_> fizzie: Oh, look, they broke compatibility with the *oldest* version they could possibly work with.
17:41:52 <fizzie> Well, Wikipedia table implies (though doesn't quite say) that 8.1 is also the best you can get on 98, Me and 2000.
17:41:59 <zzo38> What version of DirectX works only on Windows 9.999?
17:42:19 <pikhq_> I've *used* 9 on 2000.
17:43:03 <fizzie> http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=35 "Supported operating systems: Windows 7, Windows Server 2003 Service Pack 1, Windows Server 2003 Service Pack 2, Windows Server 2008, Windows Vista, Windows XP Service Pack 2, Windows XP Service Pack 3" (Could be a different download, of course.)
17:43:27 <fizzie> Yeah, it is.
17:43:31 <pikhq_> They did break compatibility with 9.c, yes.
17:44:39 <fizzie> Anyway, even a nitpicky counter-example is still a counter-example. :p
17:44:59 <pikhq_> It does seem you could use older versions of DirectX 9 on Windows 98, though.
17:45:24 <pikhq_> And then they went and made it so you couldn't use DirectX 10 on XP. ... Which, at the time, was the most popular version of Windows.
17:45:35 <fizzie> 98, but maybe not on 95. (Or NT 4.0.)
17:45:43 <pikhq_> And even now is at least significant enough you might well want to support it.
17:45:58 -!- FreeFull has joined.
17:46:07 <FreeFull> So I've been playing with Game of Life rules
17:46:32 <FreeFull> Does anyone know if there is a spaceship possible in B3/S12
17:46:41 <fizzie> Yeah, it doesn't seem like there's anything newer than DirectX 3 for NT 4.0. So there, they've broken it twice, even when looking at major numbers only.
17:46:50 <FreeFull> I did find one in B3/S125 but not in B3/S12 yet
17:48:07 <itidus21> valve is also a bunch of assholes :>
17:48:27 <itidus21> i guess one bunch of assholes can get annoyed by another
17:48:47 <elliott> FreeFull: I think there's a database of whether certain lifelike rules have spaceships.
17:48:49 <fizzie> Next up on the left: "Occlusion culling for the next generation", by someone from Umbra.
17:48:49 <elliott> I don't recall where it is, though.
17:49:52 -!- Taneb has joined.
17:50:10 <FreeFull> The spaceship I found in B3/S125 is pretty neat. It moves at c/6 diagonally
17:50:23 <Taneb> Hello
17:52:20 <Taneb> FreeFull, I don't recognise you. You new?
17:52:52 <FreeFull> Yes
17:53:02 <Taneb> :)
17:53:43 <Sgeo__> `welcome FreeFull
17:53:55 <HackEgo> FreeFull: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
17:54:09 <fizzie> fungot: You welcome him too. Learn some manners from the other bots.
17:54:11 <fungot> fizzie: " my beautiful zoe, i live only for glory, but he does not resemble me. you well know, that without the guide and light of sound, well-understood principles, all those evils which are attributed to corruption may, with equal wisdom, provided for the return of the bourbons.
17:54:17 <Sgeo__> Reason I didn't do that earlier is because that's usually used for people who haven't indicted that they're aware that this is not for "the other kind of esoterica"
17:54:23 <fizzie> I, uh... maybe not quite in that way.
17:54:29 <Sgeo__> You've indicated awareness, so it's all good
17:55:32 <FreeFull> I really like the befunge family for some reason
17:55:44 <Sgeo__> fungot is written in befunge
17:55:45 <fungot> Sgeo__: false policy in our war with france or america, the refuge of the oppressed from everywhere ( who can pay fifty dollars' fnord one except a fnord up for human rights everywhere, even helping china let people in free when she wants to collect fifty dollars upon them.
17:55:59 <FreeFull> Impressive
17:56:02 <Taneb> Ver
17:56:03 <Taneb> y
17:56:29 <Taneb> FreeFull, two important questions?
17:56:38 <Taneb> Do you live in Hexham?
17:56:41 <FreeFull> No
17:56:47 <Taneb> How about Finland?
17:56:53 <FreeFull> Nope
17:56:57 <Taneb> Okay
17:57:00 <FreeFull> Why?
17:57:15 <Taneb> They're statistical anomalies in the esoteric world
17:57:18 <fizzie> ^source
17:57:18 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
17:57:23 <fizzie> You can see what makes fungot tick there.
17:57:24 <fungot> fizzie: but there is one member of the committee of public safety. irruption of the mob, one a term of fifty, another a term of twenty-eight years. in ten years.
17:57:27 <FreeFull> I live in High Wycombe
17:58:11 <Taneb> Yeah, that's not really near Hexham nor Finland
17:58:51 <Sgeo__> ^style
17:58:51 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches* ss wp youtube
17:58:56 <Taneb> Hexham's a town in Northumberland where at least 1 in 6000 people are in this channel RIGHT NOW
17:58:58 <FreeFull> Does fungot do markov modelling?
17:58:59 <fungot> FreeFull: the following is a list of the fnord of nations. but, it is impossible, sir, this defence is unworthy of a man, and diffident about appearing before legislative bodies, and of manly sincerity for which i have mentioned, have no objection to the " greatest happiness fnord supposition which may be found among its defects.
17:59:50 <Taneb> Finland is similar, but a country that isn't in Northumberland
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18:00:39 <Taneb> (Hexham has population 12000ish)
18:00:42 <FreeFull> 1 in 6000 people in finland are in here?
18:00:54 <FreeFull> The population of Finland is a lot smaller than I thought
18:00:55 <Taneb> Nah
18:01:11 <Taneb> Just about 15% of this channel is Finnish
18:01:14 <Taneb> Including fungot
18:01:15 <fungot> Taneb: " now you talk like a human being who is fnord around and teaching school, and thou must be.
18:01:35 -!- epicmonkey has joined.
18:01:41 <FreeFull> fungot's source link doesn't seem to work
18:01:41 -!- Gregor has set topic: We are fnord around the teaching school | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
18:01:41 <fungot> FreeFull: a radical war song, a. lincoln. washington. february 3, 1862_ a change. but nowhere has the revolution been more complete and violent than in england.
18:01:42 <FreeFull> It's timing out
18:01:55 <Taneb> ^source
18:01:56 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
18:02:17 <Taneb> Hmm
18:02:44 <Taneb> fizzie, fix it please?
18:02:46 <fizzie> FreeFull: I'd spew out my usual few-hundred-word explanation of fungot babble, but I've done it so many times... but yeah, it technically speaking has the Markov property. It generates by sampling from a variable-length n-gram model, implementation-wise.
18:02:47 <fungot> fizzie: i say, blame him for this? not merely because i had unworthily filled the chair of the house of commons.
18:02:53 <fizzie> Taneb: It works for me. :/
18:02:57 <fizzie> And I'm not even at home.
18:03:16 <Taneb> Has fungot's server's ISP fell out with the UK?
18:03:17 <fungot> Taneb: it is the law.
18:03:27 <Taneb> I'll take that as a yes
18:03:39 <fizzie> Taneb: Seems that it works over IPv6, but not over IPv4. I'll try to get it fixed at some point, but not from here.
18:03:54 <Taneb> Yeah, IPv6 is rare in the UK
18:03:59 <FreeFull> My ISP is shitty and doesn't offer IPv6
18:04:03 <fizzie> In the meanwhile, fungot.b98 is at http://sprunge.us/hGRJ
18:04:04 <fungot> fizzie: if i have anything to do with the question. yet it does somehow happen that this evening, and the hateful institution, like a second deity, fnord to the senate.
18:04:10 * pikhq_ mutters at the objections to NaCl
18:04:19 <pikhq_> "It's not HTML" is an actual objection.
18:04:37 <FreeFull> Javascript isn't HTML either
18:04:46 <pikhq_> Like, people think the HTML/Javascript/bullshit stack is *actually good*
18:04:52 <pikhq_> And Google should focus on improving that.
18:05:22 <pikhq_> *This* is the reason Mozilla doesn't intend to support NaCl.
18:05:36 <Taneb> !!!
18:06:27 <Dovregubben> sodium chloride?
18:06:40 <Dovregubben> Mozilla doesn't support table salt?
18:06:49 <FreeFull> native client
18:06:57 <Taneb> FreeFull, http://hpaste.org/raw/72555
18:07:03 <Sgeo__> It's made of sodium and chloride, therefore it's poisonous
18:07:06 <Taneb> I had it cached
18:07:41 <pikhq_> Incidentally, the whole lack-of-portability aspect in NaCl is going away. Google's currently trying to make it so it works using LLVM bytecode.
18:08:20 <FreeFull> Taneb: fizzie already linked a copy
18:08:23 <pikhq_> And they won't have it on by default in Chrome until that's done.
18:08:24 <FreeFull> fizzie: Impressive
18:08:27 <zzo38> Does that mean you can program it in any programming language which can compile to LLVM?
18:08:37 <Taneb> Aah
18:08:40 <Taneb> Didn't see that
18:08:51 <fizzie> Taneb: Could you retry the original source URL. For some reason, even the v4 access suddenly started to work for me, while I was tcpdumping to find out what's wrong.
18:08:53 <pikhq_> zzo38: Yes.
18:09:08 <Taneb> Yeah, it's up?
18:09:15 <fizzie> The weirdest.
18:09:16 <Taneb> Seems like an ISP problem?
18:09:22 <fizzie> I didn't change any configuration or anything.
18:09:27 <pikhq_> zzo38: I think it might require a few extra bits so it'll comply with the portable NaCl ABI, *but* that seems like a very minor thing.
18:09:41 <fizzie> I don't know, they could be inbound-filtering port 80 but they haven't so far.
18:09:49 <fizzie> Don't see why it'd suddenly start working.
18:09:59 <fizzie> SSHing in worked the whole time.
18:10:22 <Sgeo__> So, Common Lisp in the browser?
18:10:25 <Sgeo__> >.>
18:10:30 <pikhq_> Sgeo__: Yes.
18:10:42 <zzo38> So I think it would include: C, C++, Objective-C, Objective-C++, Haskell, LLVM IR coding, possibly others too, does it include Pascal?
18:10:52 <FreeFull> ^bf +.
18:10:53 <fungot> <CTCP>
18:10:58 <FreeFull> o.o
18:10:59 <pikhq_> zzo38: Quite plausibly.
18:11:00 <FreeFull> Woops
18:11:02 <Sgeo__> Hmm, C can be compiled to LLVM, right? So Tcl?
18:11:08 <pikhq_> Sgeo__: Yes.
18:11:30 <fizzie> FreeFull: You hit my "on the TODO list for the last several months" bug of not filtering CTCP control character (\x01) on the first try. Congratulations.
18:12:03 <pikhq_> Sgeo__: There's already some work on Tcl in NaCl, BTW.
18:12:06 <fizzie> ^bf ,[>,]<[.<]!hello
18:12:06 <fungot> olleh
18:12:09 <Taneb> Also Python?
18:12:21 <fizzie> ^show
18:12:21 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble asc ord prefixes tmp test celebrate wiki chr ha rainbow rainbow2 welcome
18:12:25 <zzo38> I have checked, LLVM now could support the Pascal ranged types, I guess, since you can specify the valid range when loading a value.
18:12:27 <fizzie> Many of those are brainfuck things.
18:12:34 <fizzie> (Many of those are very inane.)
18:13:34 <zzo38> But I have been told that LLVM cannot optimize brainfuck codes very well.
18:13:47 <Sgeo__> pikhq_, cool
18:13:47 <pikhq_> Sgeo__: Also, anything on NaCl has access to the HTML DOM.
18:13:47 <Sgeo__> Tcl > Javascript?
18:14:51 <Taneb> pikhq_, Is there an API for that or something
18:16:41 <pikhq_> Taneb: Yeah.
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18:26:45 <FreeFull> ^bf +.++++ +++[- >++++ ++++< ]>+.+ +.<++ ++[-> ++++< ]>+.< +++[- >---< ]>--.+++++ +.-.< +++++ +[->- ----- <]>-- ----- ---.< +++++ ++++[ ->+++ ++++++<]>+ +++++ .<+++ [->-- -<]>- ----. --..+ ++++. ----- --.<+ ++[-> +++<]>++++ +.<>>>>>+.
18:26:45 <FreeFull> Is it too long
18:28:54 <fizzie> It doesn't look cut off.
18:29:19 <fizzie> Seems to be a netsplit kind of thing.
18:29:36 <fizzie> As seen from the bot's console IRC-rawlog, we all don't exist.
18:30:13 <zzo38> Fix it
18:30:27 <fizzie> I?
18:30:31 <fizzie> I think that's Freenode's job.
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18:33:45 <itidus21> lol
18:33:59 <fizzie> Hey, freenode people: fix it.
18:34:07 <fizzie> (I'm sure you're sniffing in our private things.)
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18:37:36 <Taneb> I wonder what happened on the other side of that split
18:37:42 <fizzie> Awesome things.
18:37:44 <zzo38> <CTCP>PING netsplittest<CTCP>
18:38:03 <Taneb> fizzie, I was on your side
18:38:19 <fizzie> Yes, but fungot was on another side.
18:38:22 <fungot> fizzie: " it pronounces that there exists a real, not a blemish upon it; for it seems to be, either a truism or a contradiction in terms; and that difficulty is as complete in the case of a mere majority ( say of one) shall pass with them and with least inconvenience to the litigants. it was pleasant to hear that i am not one of them to know that a salutary change has taken place which makes them ten times as strong as the reas
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18:39:04 <itidus21> one way to find out
18:39:44 <itidus21> darn i was on the log bot's side
18:39:53 <FreeFull> I saw both fungot and fizzie split away from me
18:39:54 <fungot> FreeFull: whilst the inferior people were thus insensibly led into a better order, the foundation of other thrones: they must be just as true for the punjab and the united provinces, that there are
18:40:02 <FreeFull> So seems to be a multi-server split
18:40:13 <zzo38> Some appear to be slow
18:40:50 <FreeFull> fungot: You can just filter any character whose value is below 32
18:40:51 <fungot> FreeFull: in reference to every case, showing the determined and daring character of the men i see at these tables, or how soon our better half of human nature
18:41:04 <FreeFull> I mean fizzie
18:41:11 <fizzie> FreeFull: But then I couldn't have any bold.
18:41:17 <fizzie> (I had it that way originally.)
18:41:22 <fizzie> Currently it only filters 10.
18:42:04 <quintopia> hi FreeFull
18:42:04 <FreeFull> Filters 10 because otherwise someone could take control of the bot?
18:42:11 <FreeFull> Hi
18:42:29 <fizzie> Yes.
18:42:34 <fizzie> It turns into a .
18:42:36 <zzo38> It should filter at least 0x00 0x0A 0x0D and perhaps also 0x01 0x03 0x07
18:42:40 <fizzie> A ., I mean.
18:42:54 <fizzie> I think it might filter 13 too.
18:43:02 <quintopia> show me your previous work FreeFull
18:43:05 <zzo38> It should filter 13 too.
18:43:07 <fizzie> ^bf ++++++++++.+++.
18:43:08 <fungot> ..
18:43:09 <fizzie> It does.
18:43:19 <fizzie> ^bf ++++++++++..>.<..
18:43:20 <fungot> ..
18:43:22 <fizzie> But not 0.
18:43:26 <FreeFull> what does it do for infinite loops?
18:43:31 <fizzie> It just results in a truncated message, though.
18:43:32 <FreeFull> quintopia: I'm afraid I don't have any
18:43:34 <quintopia> times out
18:43:40 <zzo38> It ought to filter 0.
18:43:57 <FreeFull> ^bf [+.]
18:44:05 <FreeFull> ^bf +[+.]
18:44:05 <fungot> .. !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~ ...
18:44:11 <fizzie> zzo38: Actually, it "filters" 0 in that it doesn't output it. It just cuts it at that point.
18:44:22 * itidus21 was like.. wtf was that
18:44:23 <fizzie> FreeFull: It runs something like 30k or 100k cycles of the underlying intermediate bytecode.
18:44:29 <fizzie> ^bf +[]
18:44:34 <fungot> ...out of time!
18:44:38 <zzo38> Filter 0 like that is OK I guess
18:45:00 <FreeFull> ^bf .-.
18:45:05 <FreeFull> ^bf -.
18:45:05 <fungot>
18:45:13 <itidus21> .. !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?
18:45:23 <itidus21> nvm
18:45:27 <fizzie> Cells are wraparound with 8 bits, and the tape is 1000 cells and cyclic.
18:46:09 <FreeFull> ^bf +[>+]
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18:48:38 <FreeFull> ^code
18:48:41 <FreeFull> ^code a
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18:50:12 <Sgeo__> The Google Web Store requirement part is annoying
18:50:38 <Vorpal> 64 GB MicroSD cards are fascinating... That you can fit that much in something so small
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18:51:39 <Sgeo__> Oh, apparently that's going to change
18:52:21 <Taneb> Vorpal, imagine how it will be like in 3 years
18:52:27 <Taneb> 256 GB MicroSDs...
18:52:32 <Vorpal> true...
18:52:35 <nooga> i'm trying to procedurally generate sand dunes heightmap
18:53:35 <itidus21> nooga: so.. i know you didn't ask my opinion but, what is under a desert?
18:53:36 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
18:53:48 <itidus21> does what is under a desert affect the shape of the dunes?
18:53:48 <Taneb> itidus21, rock, generally
18:54:21 <itidus21> or can we assume that sand dunes form upon a base of sand? :D
18:54:49 <Taneb> nooga, how's that going?
18:54:51 <itidus21> clearly its better to just let me on my way
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19:05:37 <zzo38> Can you invent any game played using snooker balls or pool balls?
19:07:58 <quintopia> not one better than fantasy classique
19:08:14 <zzo38> What does that mean?
19:09:06 <quintopia> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artistic_billiards
19:11:20 <itidus21> zzo38: naturally
19:11:22 <itidus21> brb
19:13:09 <itidus21> we begin by adding a cage net around the table
19:13:19 <itidus21> and installing ramps
19:14:01 <itidus21> and placing some of the pockets on the top of cylinders on the table
19:14:23 <zzo38> How can you strike the ball if there is a cage net?
19:14:36 <itidus21> thats a good point
19:14:44 <quintopia> stick the cue through the holes
19:14:45 <quintopia> :P
19:15:03 <quintopia> still not a better game than fantaisie classique :)
19:16:34 <itidus21> hmm you could use a spider i suppose
19:17:50 <itidus21> or.. perhaps something where both players send the balls to smash together
19:18:16 <quintopia> is snooker the one with the mushrooms on the table?
19:18:27 <zzo38> No.
19:18:43 <zzo38> Snooker is the one with fifteen red balls and various other color of balls on the table.
19:18:52 <itidus21> 2 balls, 1 hole, and a countdown after which both players may hit their ball precisely once
19:19:09 <quintopia> oh it's "bar billiards"
19:19:40 <quintopia> oh no
19:19:42 <quintopia> that's not it
19:19:44 <quintopia> hmm
19:19:52 <Vorpal> snooker trick shots can be quite interesting to watch
19:20:03 <itidus21> wow you guys really know a lot
19:20:17 <Vorpal> personally I don't find that type of sport interesting in themselves
19:20:36 <itidus21> still, i feel like i wasted my life by not learning largely useless trivia
19:21:00 <Vorpal> quintopia, snooker is snooker?
19:22:42 <quintopia> aha!
19:22:46 <quintopia> found it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bumper_pool
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19:23:28 <Vorpal> quintopia, no, snooker is played on a much larger board?
19:23:42 <quintopia> Vorpal: i don't know what you are going on about.
19:23:42 <Vorpal> or with smaller balls than that picture
19:23:54 <Vorpal> <quintopia> is snooker the one with the mushrooms on the table? <quintopia> oh it's "bar billiards" <quintopia> found it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bumper_pool
19:23:58 <quintopia> but is successfully found the game i was looking for, so you can talk to ourself about it
19:24:00 <Vorpal> quintopia, not the same thread of thought?
19:24:01 <quintopia> *I
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19:24:36 <Vorpal> quintopia, no?
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20:11:04 <nooga> alg
20:11:21 <oerjan> o, rithm
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20:12:40 <nooga> i c
20:12:48 -!- TodPunk has joined.
20:13:15 <boily> abbage an
20:13:35 <oerjan> d waffle
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20:20:59 <Taneb> There are a lot of subreddits...
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20:30:00 <Sgeo__> pikhq, what do you think of this? (In #tcl person who'd rather see 8.6 released ASAP even if coredumps occur)
20:37:41 <kmc> confucius say billiards is wrong because man with nine balls cannot walk
20:40:43 <oerjan> confucius smart
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21:15:57 <itidus21> theat
21:16:31 <itidus21> rhythm
21:16:56 <elliott> yes
21:19:02 <itidus21> something is very wrong here: http://www.gamingunion.net/newsimg/theatrhythm-final-fantasy-review.jpg
21:25:20 -!- Sgeo__ has changed nick to Sgeo.
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21:34:07 <oerjan> there's a Tardis monad?
21:35:24 <oerjan> https://github.com/DanBurton/tardis it seems
21:35:55 * Sgeo misread monad as command
21:36:01 <Sgeo> So was thinking Tcl instead of Haskell
21:36:20 <oerjan> as punishment you shall have to implement that.
21:42:55 <Sgeo> I'm already trying to get my mind around doing dynamically-scoped variables in the presence of coroutines
21:44:01 <Sgeo> And being told not to try using a seemingly useful Tcl command because it's likely to be buggy, and I might cause a core dump and if that happens, then they'll have to fix it which will delay release
21:46:17 <shachaf> kmc: Apparently lexand__ isn't one of the 5-HT_2A agonist people.
21:46:22 <shachaf> I thought everyone you knew was.
21:46:39 <shachaf> s/_/e_/
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22:01:25 <itidus21> `pastelogs <sgeo.*tcl
22:02:00 <HackEgo> No output.
22:02:07 <itidus21> `pastelogs <sgeo.*tcl
22:02:31 <itidus21> i just.. had to
22:02:41 <HackEgo> mkdir: cannot create directory `/hackenv': File exists \ http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.23453 \ /hackenv/bin/paste: line 14: /hackenv/paste/paste.23453: No such file or directory
22:03:24 <itidus21> ok. cool.
22:03:39 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
22:04:10 -!- pikhq has joined.
22:15:27 <itidus21> Sgeo: they should just release it with the proviso "don't use this command in this release it's buggy and it may cause a coredump"
22:16:31 <oerjan> `ls .
22:16:34 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ foo \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom
22:17:04 <itidus21> im glad that my query failed cos it felt kind of abusive
22:17:30 <Sgeo> `pastelogs life
22:17:35 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.331
22:17:44 <Sgeo> Why did the first one not work?
22:25:41 <itidus21> `pastelogs sgeo.*tcl
22:25:51 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.19893
22:26:10 <itidus21> wow
22:26:14 <itidus21> unexpected
22:26:43 <itidus21> little did you know that tcl was embedded in that id
22:27:23 <Sgeo> ?
22:27:47 <itidus21> <sgeo|fsckthaTCLi>
22:28:05 <Sgeo> Ah
22:28:32 <Sgeo> I was vacillating between Lisp and Tcl in February? Really?
22:29:05 <elliott> hi
22:33:02 <FreeFull> Nothing wrong with Lisp, as long as you choose the right implementation
22:33:14 <FreeFull> Racket and Clojure are nice
22:33:27 <itidus21> so, i'm interested in total functions. i think they're wonderful things.
22:33:29 * Sgeo has become a Tcl person.
22:35:17 <itidus21> Sgeo: yes, finally out of the closeTCLoset. but i can't help feeling that my way of discussing it is inappropriate
22:36:12 <itidus21> it's not my business
22:37:54 <Sgeo> Huh, so elliott once wanted to make a Tcl-inspired language
22:37:57 <Sgeo> How did that go?
22:39:30 <elliott> i didn't do it
22:39:40 <elliott> cpressey's new language is tclish
22:39:52 <elliott> btw you're not a tcl person because you won't be a tcl person in N days for some N
22:40:41 <Sgeo> Well, Tcl-liker?
22:41:26 <oerjan> FreeFull: some random seeding with MCell doesn't seem to throw up any spaceships for your CA...
22:42:08 <oerjan> and only few oscillators
22:43:56 <oerjan> and stuff seems to move not very far from the seeded rectangle
22:44:07 <kmc> shachaf: that's stupid that you thought that
22:44:29 <kmc> i'm in a bad mood so i'm not going to try to be nice about it
22:44:30 <kmc> sorry
22:44:58 <Phantom__Hoover> FreeFull made a CA?
22:45:10 <oerjan> well mentioned one
22:45:16 <Phantom__Hoover> We haven't had a good CA discussion in ages (oko doesn't count because he just monologues.)
22:45:28 <oerjan> B12/S3 isn't complicated enough to be unknown
22:45:50 <Phantom__Hoover> Ah
22:45:53 <elliott> kmc: hi :(
22:46:02 <oerjan> which means -> google
22:46:27 <elliott> http://fano.ics.uci.edu/ca/
22:46:28 <elliott> this is it
22:46:38 <Phantom__Hoover> B1 makes all patterns infinitely growing, FWIW.
22:46:42 <elliott> http://fano.ics.uci.edu/ca/rules/b12s3/
22:46:47 <elliott> @tell FreeFull http://fano.ics.uci.edu/ca/rules/b12s3/
22:46:48 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
22:48:02 <Phantom__Hoover> I note that that website hasn't been updated with Gemini.
22:48:22 <oerjan> Phantom__Hoover: er
22:48:31 <oerjan> *B3/S12
22:49:13 <itidus21> kmc: after visiting the brothel that one time i bought a bottle of pheromones
22:49:30 <Phantom__Hoover> is this real life you're talking about
22:49:33 <itidus21> it eventually leaked into my drawer also somehow
22:49:58 <itidus21> no, lol. that virtual reality which has both brothels and pheromones
22:50:02 <oerjan> elliott: *B3/S12
22:50:06 <Phantom__Hoover> thank god
22:50:13 <Phantom__Hoover> oerjan, 3 gliders according to the site.
22:50:14 <oerjan> which seems harder to google :(
22:50:21 <elliott> @tell FreeFull sorry -- http://fano.ics.uci.edu/ca/rules/b3s12/
22:50:22 <oerjan> Phantom__Hoover: which site?
22:50:22 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
22:50:26 <elliott> @tell FreeFull so there are gliders
22:50:26 <Phantom__Hoover> Both big, and ungainly.
22:50:26 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
22:50:30 <itidus21> you don't wanna know about my second life activities
22:50:30 <elliott> oerjan: the one i linked???
22:50:39 <elliott> itidus21: no i do
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22:51:29 <itidus21> i have other stories.. but.. thats enough for today
22:52:24 <itidus21> i also saw the episode of bottom where they buy some pheromones and visit a bar
22:52:32 <itidus21> at a later stage
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22:54:03 <oerjan> elliott: should we tell itidus21 and Sgeo to get a channel?
22:54:23 <elliott> no i want to keep hearing itidus21's stories here
22:54:29 <oerjan> okay
22:54:34 <itidus21> i am trying to cheer up kmc with that anecdote
22:54:45 <elliott> hahhahah
22:54:59 <Phantom__Hoover> did kmc's pheremone adventures go horribly wrong
22:55:16 <oerjan> never play the theremin on pheromones
22:56:22 <FreeFull> elliott: Thanks
22:56:22 <lambdabot> FreeFull: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
22:56:25 <Phantom__Hoover> shachaf, wait, what's the relevance of the 5-HT2A receptor?
22:56:38 <elliott> FreeFull: oh, i didn't realise you were still in the channel, sorry :)
22:56:54 <FreeFull> elliott: They are pretty big, no wonder I didn't find them
22:57:05 <itidus21> Phantom__Hoover: a group of people studying and documenting the effects of different stuff if i understand right
22:57:52 <Phantom__Hoover> ...what, all kmc's friends are neurochemists?
22:58:29 <itidus21> .... sorry by studying i meant using.. and
22:59:15 <FreeFull> Phantom__Hoover: I just use golly
22:59:18 <oerjan> Phantom__Hoover: they are "chemists" who do things to neurons, if you catch my drift
22:59:29 <itidus21> i don't think this is helping..
22:59:39 <elliott> this channel.
23:00:15 <Phantom__Hoover> But WP doesn't say 5-HT2A has anything to do with sex!
23:01:03 <FreeFull> http://fano.ics.uci.edu/ca/rules/b3s125/g1.html This is the same glider I found for B3/S125
23:01:58 <oerjan> elliott: wait, do you want me to ban everyone, including myself again?
23:02:24 <elliott> yes
23:02:31 <oerjan> thought so.
23:02:54 <FreeFull> +b *!*@*
23:03:44 * oerjan suddenly wonders if that means something in geek code
23:04:17 -!- itidus21 has left ("With over 150 related products we have the KVM switching solution for you").
23:04:43 <FreeFull> The chanmode +b *!*@* bans everybody
23:05:00 <oerjan> shocking!
23:05:11 <elliott> i think oerjan knows +b :P
23:05:14 <elliott> at least, i hope he does.
23:05:25 <oerjan> he probably has his doubts.
23:05:27 <FreeFull> In what languages other than shell is :(){ :|:&};: legal code?
23:05:45 <Phantom__Hoover> Languages where : is a line comment delimeter?
23:06:11 <FreeFull> I don't know any where that's the case though
23:06:39 <oerjan> maybe you could get that into a pascal program, {} is comments there
23:06:40 <elliott> i think there's one
23:06:50 <elliott> that's valid forth, if you make some predefinitions
23:06:54 <elliott> but that's a rather trivial property
23:06:58 <oerjan> hm ;: probably won't work
23:07:22 <oerjan> is it valid agda? (/me doesn't know agda but has heard rumors)
23:07:39 <FreeFull> It would be valid brainfuck (just treated entirely as a comment)
23:07:49 <FreeFull> But there isn't anything that isn't valid brainfuck
23:08:03 <oerjan> ^bf ] i beg to differ
23:08:03 <fungot> Mismatched [].
23:08:14 <Phantom__Hoover> oerjan, ooh, I think that's a legal Agda token.
23:08:22 <FreeFull> Oh, you're right
23:08:31 <FreeFull> But it would be valid brainfuck in this case
23:08:36 <oerjan> Phantom__Hoover: both of them? or even with the space?
23:08:43 <FreeFull> ^bf :(){ :|:&};:
23:08:48 <Phantom__Hoover> Yeah, both.
23:09:06 <Phantom__Hoover> () has a special meaning but I suspect it needs whitespace for that.
23:11:14 <Sgeo> itidus is an SL person?
23:11:50 <oerjan> Sgeo: there seems to be evidence for that
23:11:52 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: : is a line comment delimiter in TeX if you write \catcode`:=14
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23:15:14 <Phantom__Hoover> It's probably legal in Perl with some wrangling beforehand.
23:15:57 <zzo38> Yes maybe. Try it
23:16:27 <Phantom__Hoover> Oi, kallisti, you're the poor fool who thinks perl is a good language.
23:17:45 <Sgeo> It occurs to me that although both Tcl and Lisp could make a good-looking do-like (as in Haskell's do) construct, it would be easier in Lisp because in Tcl you'd have to parse a string if you want it to look the way Tcl code generally looks
23:18:00 <zzo38> Finally I thought of how the macro in Ibtlfmm should be working: There is 2 kind of macros, file macros and module macros. Even module macros there is also 2 kind, open macros and closed macros. And it is possible for some module to import an open macro but export it as closed.
23:18:40 <kallisti> Phantom__Hoover: what are you attempting to do?
23:19:06 <kallisti> : as comment?
23:19:10 <Phantom__Hoover> Make :(){ :|&:};: legal code.
23:19:14 <kallisti> oh
23:19:40 <kallisti> I'll assume source filters is cheating
23:20:18 <kallisti> I don't even know what : does in perl actually
23:20:22 <zzo38> The only way I know how : as comment is in TeX and in Forth if preceded and followed by a space.
23:20:52 <Sgeo> source filters?
23:21:06 <kallisti> you can run perl code on the source files of other perl code before they're compiled
23:21:22 <kallisti> it's used to modify the language syntax.
23:21:37 <Sgeo> That.... does it receive the code as a string?
23:21:41 <kallisti> yes
23:22:11 <Sgeo> That... seems like it could be harder to deal with than Tcl, even though Tcl also sees Tcl code in terms of strings --- Tcl syntax is very simple
23:22:45 <kallisti> there are some modules that abstract over this to make it easy to define specific syntactic constructs
23:23:13 <Sgeo> I'm just going to assume that Tcl is easier
23:23:45 <kallisti> but probably not as flexible
23:24:55 * Sgeo raises an eyebrow
23:25:49 <Sgeo> Well, I guess you'd have some trouble (aka impossible) with whole-code transforms such as turning a bunch of stuff into CPS
23:28:04 <Sgeo> kallisti, how much do you know about Tcl?
23:29:26 <kallisti> enough to know that I'm not interested in this conversation
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23:36:05 <FreeFull> In lisp, the code is lists, so you can use the same operations you'd use on lists of data to modify the code
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23:39:50 <Sgeo> In Tcl, the code is strings, and some strings are lists and all lists are strings...
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23:40:10 <Sgeo> It's not perfect, not quite like Lisp, but it's workable
23:43:29 <oerjan> in haskell, the code is just a braided ring over a category of prepromorphisms, so you can use the same operations you'd use on braided rings over categories of prepromorphisms to construct a new code
23:45:07 <oerjan> It's not workable, unlike Lisp and TCL, but it's perfect
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00:01:45 <elliott> Sgeo: btw strings are an awful awful basis for a language
00:02:12 <FreeFull> Hey, I just figured out
00:02:24 <FreeFull> That if you take all odd numbers
00:02:40 * oerjan braces for someone inventing cardinalities
00:02:45 <oerjan> *re-
00:03:01 <FreeFull> Wait
00:03:03 <FreeFull> Let me check this
00:03:30 <FreeFull> nope, nevermind
00:05:16 * oerjan starts breathing again
00:05:26 <elliott> i never breathe
00:05:36 <zzo38> Why?
00:05:38 <oerjan> of course
00:06:19 <Phantom__Hoover> Because you have to breathe the air they want you to breath.
00:09:05 <oerjan> before you know they'll have poisoned you with dihydrogen monoxide
00:09:53 <FreeFull> The air is full of dioxygen, an extremely reactive compound!
00:10:12 <zzo38> O yes you are correct. I forgot.
00:10:51 <Phantom__Hoover> FreeFull, it's both acidic *and* alkaline!
00:10:56 <FreeFull> And don't forget dinitrogen, which when breathed in sufficient amounts with cause loss of consciousness and then death
00:11:19 <FreeFull> Phantom__Hoover: You're thinking of dihydrogen monoxide
00:11:37 <Phantom__Hoover> Ah, of course.
00:11:49 <Phantom__Hoover> I think you mean 'breathed in sufficient concentrations', though.
00:12:16 <FreeFull> I did
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00:15:21 -!- Chaaaaaang-Noi has changed nick to copumpkin.
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01:25:48 * oerjan looks sternly at glogbackup
01:29:22 <elliott> it's confused :(
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02:32:29 * Phantom__Hoover -> sleep
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02:33:20 <Gregor> “I'm on 29th street, in the—no joke—bright yellow house.” “Well, since you were so kind as to warn me, I should warn you. I'm bringing—no joke—bright yellow pants.”
02:34:06 <oerjan> follow the yellow brick joke
02:34:43 <Gregor> 'snot a joke, it's an anecdote.
02:34:56 <coppro> haha
02:35:50 <zzo38> Who told you that?
02:36:06 <Gregor> I am the second speaker.
02:36:19 <oerjan> a reliable man made of straw
02:36:26 <zzo38> Do you have bright yellow pants?
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02:36:37 <Gregor> I do now!
02:36:42 <Gregor> Need to be hemmed though.
02:37:08 <zzo38> Did you buy it after you told them that?
02:37:26 <Gregor> 'course not, the first speaker was the tailor who I'm hiring to hem the pants.
02:38:06 <oerjan> gregor, the man with the larger-than-life pants
02:38:19 <oerjan> also hats
02:38:24 <Gregor> They shipped unhemmed. They're like 36x40.
02:42:10 <zzo38> OK
02:45:24 <zzo38> Is it?
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03:09:23 <zzo38> Have you use unofficial opcodes in 6502 assembly codes?
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03:47:40 <Sgeo> It occurs to me that, while I do have some problems with Tcl, I don't _think_ they ultimately stem from being string-based.
03:48:08 <Sgeo> One looks like it at first, but it seems like it could have been different while still being string-based
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03:50:41 <Sgeo> `welcome TUX_
03:50:48 <HackEgo> TUX_: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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03:59:16 <Sgeo> Although.... one of the things that makes metaprogramming in Tcl somewhat easy is that commands are lists. They're strings, but they're also lists
03:59:36 <Sgeo> And my problem is that a bunch of commands aren't really lists, they're just... scripts
03:59:45 <Sgeo> (Well, one of my problems)
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05:09:32 <zzo38> Is mathematics the real reality?
05:10:12 <elliott> YE
05:10:13 <elliott> *ye
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05:19:26 <zzo38> What is your opinion about this? http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=193905 (please read four pages)
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05:26:23 <itidus21> zzo38: was mathematics the real reality before humans? is reality real if noone realizes?
05:26:55 <itidus21> i don't think i want the answers
05:27:37 <zzo38> itidus21: Good because I don't know the answers.
05:28:34 <itidus21> of course, one must consider that numbers are not necessary for mathematics
05:29:16 <itidus21> but if numbers are just symbols of measurement
05:29:28 <zzo38> The numbers are just one possible mathematical system, but still very useful to be used with other mathematical systems and other things too.
05:29:35 <elliott> itidus21: can i play the kmc and point out that you have no idea what you're talking about
05:29:49 <itidus21> well.. also representation
05:29:55 <itidus21> infact they are symbols outright
05:30:30 <itidus21> elliott: ok
05:34:31 <itidus21> i guess that one might say i am engaged in (some adjective could fit here) speculation
05:34:53 <itidus21> and that i am gaining very little because of it
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06:28:13 <zzo38> God *is* the rules. Therefore, how can God not follow the rules of physics?
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07:15:44 <Sgeo> It strikes me how easy it is to write bad Tcl code.
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07:39:34 <kmc> itidus21: one might correctly say that all of the time
07:39:49 <Sgeo> Well, I've been called "Sego" by a Clojure person
07:40:33 <Sgeo> http://clojurefun.wordpress.com/2012/08/04/macro-magic-the-xor-macro-38-2/comment-page-1/#comment-7
07:51:59 <elliott> well!
07:58:34 <Sgeo> I don't want to force the users of a library to monkey-patch catch.
07:58:43 <Sgeo> But it almost seems the most correct thing to do
08:12:53 <Sgeo> Tcl has a feature that would enable exactly what I need but it's reportedly very buggy
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08:24:42 <Sgeo> `welcome epicmonkey
08:24:51 <HackEgo> epicmonkey: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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08:31:04 <shachaf> kmc: Sorry. :-(
08:38:04 <epicmonkey> It used to be WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR BLA BLA BLA. What has happened? I don't feel rage anymore.
08:38:22 <epicmonkey> `WELCOME epicmonkey
08:38:44 <epicmonkey> yeah, that's way much better.
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09:15:56 <Vorpal> suddenly I have an urge to write a fault tolerant IRC bot... Why...
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09:17:40 <shachaf> `WELCOME epicmonkey
09:22:14 <Vorpal> shachaf, what about a lower case double-width one?
09:22:25 <shachaf> Vorpal: Feel free.
09:22:31 <Vorpal> shachaf, too much work
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09:29:57 <elliott> Vorpal: You've used astyle, right?
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09:34:57 <Vorpal> elliott, astyle can do that?
09:35:04 <Vorpal> or was that unrelated
09:35:13 <Vorpal> but yes I used it, was ages ago though
09:35:27 <elliott> Vorpal: Is it any good?
09:35:47 <Vorpal> elliott, Like any such tool for C it has problems with macros containing unbalanced { and }
09:36:08 <elliott> I'm in the market for something to reformat a ~85k-line C++ program.
09:36:13 <elliott> No macro hackery that I know of.
09:36:20 <Vorpal> used it for C, no clue how well it works for C++
09:36:26 <epicmonkey> I wonder if zalgo works...
09:36:29 <elliott> Is it possible to teach it about custom formatting rules for certain functions?
09:36:37 <elliott> for example
09:36:42 <epicmonkey> `̸W̷̸̛E̢L̷͘C҉OM͢͜E̷ epicmonkey
09:36:45 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ̸W̷̸̛E̢L̷͘C҉OM͢͜E̷: not found
09:36:51 <Vorpal> elliott, btw I was debugging a legacy embedded system running Windows CE the other day.
09:36:54 <elliott> there's a function that should be formatted with two parameters two a line
09:36:56 <epicmonkey> no luck
09:37:01 <elliott> rather than just wrapping at 80 cols
09:37:05 <elliott> *two parameters to
09:37:05 <Vorpal> elliott, the CPU of the system was a Pentium MMX
09:37:12 <elliott> do you know if that would be feasible?
09:37:28 <Vorpal> <elliott> Is it possible to teach it about custom formatting rules for certain functions? <-- don't remember
09:37:34 <elliott> :/
09:37:35 <elliott> ok
09:38:30 <Vorpal> elliott, btw I was debugging that system from another similar system that was talking with it it over a CAN bus.
09:39:05 <elliott> that sounds awful
09:39:26 <Vorpal> elliott, well yeah, the system I was debugging had no ethernet, so thus the middle step there
09:41:06 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, if you think toughbooks are rugged, you haven't seen the hardware I'm working with nowdays.
09:41:33 * elliott is content with the normal kind of machines
09:41:45 <Vorpal> heh
09:42:00 <shachaf> Is "XMM" just "MMX" backwards or is there something more to it?
09:42:33 <Vorpal> shachaf, I believe XMM stands for something in itself. That doesn't mean the abbreviation is a coincidence however
09:43:12 <shachaf> Does SII stand for something in itself?
09:43:22 <Vorpal> shachaf, which SII?
09:43:29 <Vorpal> the samsung phone?
09:44:04 <shachaf> SII = \x -> x x
09:44:12 <Vorpal> oh, right
09:44:23 <Vorpal> shachaf, well it obviously stands for "Something In Itself"
09:44:24 <Vorpal> :P
09:44:54 <shachaf>
09:44:58 <shachaf> (As monqy would say.)
09:45:32 <elliott> Deewiant: Hi.
09:47:10 <Deewiant> Ho.
09:47:53 <elliott> Deewiant: Tell me about code reformatters.
09:48:18 <Deewiant> Humans are the best.
09:48:31 <Deewiant> (Never really used any.)
09:48:40 <elliott> Darn.
09:48:47 <elliott> (I'm not reformatting an 85k-line codebase by hand.)
09:49:06 <elliott> Ooh, I broke this one good:
09:49:07 <elliott> stuff.h: In instantiation of ‘T random_choose_weighted_(int, int, T, Args ...) [with T = int; Args = {scroll_type}]’:
09:49:07 <elliott> stuff.h:121:66: recursively required from ‘T random_choose_weighted_(int, int, T, Args ...) [with T = int; Args = {scroll_type, int, scroll_type, int, scroll_type, int, scroll_type, int, scroll_type, int, scroll_type, int, scroll_type, int, scroll_type, int, scroll_type, int, scroll_type, int, scroll_type, int, scroll_type}]’
09:49:10 <elliott> stuff.h:121:66: required from ‘T random_choose_weighted_(int, int, T, Args ...) [with T = int; Args = {scroll_type, int, scroll_type, int, scroll_type, int, scroll_type, int, scroll_type, int, scroll_type, int, scroll_type, int, scroll_type, int, scroll_type, int, scroll_type, int, scroll_type, int, scroll_type, int, scroll_type}]’
09:49:14 <elliott> stuff.h:127:59: required from ‘T random_choose_weighted(int, T, Args ...) [with T = scroll_type; Args = {int, scroll_type, int, scroll_type, int, scroll_type, int, scroll_type, int, scroll_type, int, scroll_type, int, scroll_type, int, scroll_type, int, scroll_type, int, scroll_type, int, scroll_type, int, scroll_type, int, scroll_type}]’
09:49:36 <Deewiant> Why do you have to?
09:49:41 <elliott> Deewiant: It's ugly.
09:49:54 <Deewiant> Most code is. That doesn't mean you need to reformat all of it.
09:50:22 <elliott> It's making me sad.
09:50:29 <shachaf> elliott: indent
09:50:55 <elliott> Does indent even support C++?
09:51:21 <shachaf> I doubt it.
09:51:35 <shachaf> But I've told you everything I know about code reformatters!
09:51:42 <shachaf> Why are you reformatting Crawl's code?
09:52:20 <elliott> It's ugly.
09:52:40 <shachaf> Will they accept your changes?
09:52:49 <shachaf> Did you fork it? :-(
09:52:53 <shachaf> elliotts-crawl
09:54:01 <elliott> error: unable to find string literal operator ‘operator"" EOL’
09:54:02 <elliott> Sigh.
09:54:13 <Vorpal> <elliott> Deewiant: Tell me about code reformatters. <-- There are really good ones for Java and C#. Can't think of any perfect one for C or C++
09:55:12 <shachaf> What about the built-in vim one?
09:55:22 <shachaf> That totally counts.
09:55:40 <Vorpal> not a vim user
09:57:52 <elliott> Hey, I'm about to spam. Fair warning.
09:57:53 <elliott> - T chosen = first;
09:57:53 <elliott> - int cweight = weight, nargs = 100;
09:57:54 <elliott> -
09:57:54 <elliott> - while (nargs-- > 0)
09:57:54 <elliott> - {
09:57:55 <elliott> - const int nweight = va_arg(args, int);
09:57:57 <elliott> - if (nweight < 0)
09:57:59 <elliott> - break;
09:58:01 <elliott> -
09:58:03 <elliott> - const int choice = va_arg(args, int);
09:58:05 <elliott> - if (random2(cweight += nweight) < nweight)
09:58:07 <elliott> - chosen = static_cast<T>(choice);
09:58:09 <elliott> - }
09:58:11 <elliott> Thanks.
10:03:38 <shachaf> A proper formatter would format it to while (nargs --> 0), of course.
10:04:04 <elliott> I rewrote it to use a C++0x template.
10:04:12 <elliott> Although I don't know if we really want to go in the C++0x route.
10:05:21 <KingOfKarlsruhe> i thought C++0x doesn't exist anymore.
10:05:39 <Vorpal> shachaf, XD
10:05:53 <elliott> ok, C++11
10:06:47 <KingOfKarlsruhe> and as i know, C++1y is the next standard
10:07:01 <shachaf> C++0xB
10:07:20 <shachaf> Also known as C++11
10:07:25 <shachaf> Or would that be C++0xD0?
10:10:54 <ion> 2 Gorillas 1 Poop http://youtu.be/9QYeYPYGNdc
10:15:11 <ion> http://www.foddy.net/CLOP.html
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10:19:08 <KingOfKarlsruhe> ion: hahaha this game is funny
10:25:54 <Vorpal> ion, is it as impossible as qwop?
10:26:09 <shachaf> QWOP isn't impossible. It's easy.
10:27:48 <KingOfKarlsruhe> looool qwop is really cool
10:28:06 <Vorpal> shachaf, riiight? So you mastered it?
10:28:14 <Vorpal> prove it
10:28:28 <shachaf> Vorpal: Well, I can get to the end reliably.
10:28:32 <shachaf> It's boring but easy.
10:28:35 <Vorpal> hm okay
10:29:01 <Vorpal> shachaf, how quickly though?
10:29:11 <shachaf> Very slowly.
10:29:14 <Vorpal> ah
10:29:24 <shachaf> You're supposed to be fast?
10:29:54 <shachaf> There's no timer, just a distance-measuring thing.
10:31:29 <shachaf> I got to the top of the first hill just now.
10:31:36 <shachaf> Seems similarly boring so far.
10:32:05 <shachaf> Well, but less of a flat surface, at least.
10:32:26 <Vorpal> shachaf, well, I seen a speedrun of it?
10:32:31 <Vorpal> I've*
10:33:05 <Vorpal> also I think these games are supposed to be boring
10:33:10 <Vorpal> shachaf, you could try GIRP
10:33:24 <shachaf> Vorpal: Oh, I won using only two keys.
10:33:27 <shachaf> Does that count for something?
10:33:37 <Vorpal> in GIRP?
10:33:44 <shachaf> QWOP
10:33:47 <Vorpal> oh
10:33:51 <Vorpal> no idea
10:33:54 <shachaf> I'm past halfway in CLOP using only two keys too.
10:34:19 <shachaf> This hill is annoying, though.
10:38:32 <shachaf> Yay, I died.
10:38:38 <shachaf> That hill looks impassable using my strategy.
10:38:59 <Vorpal> I tried a couple of gaits and couldn't make it work, then I gave up
10:39:06 <shachaf> On the other hand I think I encountered a bug.
10:39:12 <shachaf> Because the hind legs stopped working completely.
10:39:16 <Vorpal> heh
10:39:17 <shachaf> Or maybe I was just doing it wrong.
10:39:23 <Vorpal> hjkl?
10:39:56 <shachaf> Yes.
10:40:00 <shachaf> Only H and K did anything.
10:40:16 <shachaf> Oh, wait.
10:40:24 <shachaf> That's probably what "Lame Horse Mode" means.
10:40:28 <Vorpal> heh
10:40:30 <shachaf> Yep.
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10:57:12 <oklopol> is there a second hill?
10:58:20 <shachaf> Yes.
10:58:29 <oklopol> ouch :P
10:58:49 <oklopol> is your strategy to lame your back legs?
10:58:52 <oklopol> or what
10:58:55 <oklopol> i just run
10:58:58 <shachaf> That's what I did, yes.
11:02:40 <oklopol> and i suppose the second hill is bigger
11:04:54 <oklopol> this would be so much easier if the keys made any sense
11:05:28 <oklopol> i can guess the reason but if it's that one, it's still so wrong.
11:05:45 <ion> You could make a custom keyboard layout!
11:09:13 <oklopol> sounds tedious
11:13:36 <oklopol> ...unlike playing this for hours with keys i don't like?
11:18:16 <ion> Random facts about Finnish: there’s a humorous euphemism for puking: speaking in Norwegian or phoning to Norway. In the context of the latter the toilet can be called a phone booth.
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11:58:43 <Vorpal> elliott, you there?
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11:59:11 <elliott> no
11:59:46 <Vorpal> elliott, didn't you mess with cfunge under cygwin ages ago?
11:59:51 <Vorpal> I forgot what the outcome of that was
12:00:15 <elliott> idk
12:00:18 <elliott> i think it worked
12:00:22 <Vorpal> hm okay
12:17:12 <Vorpal> ah yes, the whole thing built save for one small fix
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12:19:58 <Vorpal> though it gives a spurious BAD
12:19:59 <Vorpal> hm
12:21:30 <Vorpal> okay I switched from Release to Debug and now it fails in a different place
12:22:03 <elliott> monqy: hello
12:22:14 <monqy> .
12:23:10 <elliott> lambdabot: what are you doing
12:23:14 <elliott> monqy: try saying a longer message
12:23:25 <monqy> i already checked my messages
12:23:31 <elliott> o
12:23:31 <monqy> how else would i know about that thing i knew about
12:23:34 <elliott> that's cheating
12:23:36 <elliott> oh right
12:23:38 <elliott> i
12:23:42 <elliott> i'm not very smart sometimes
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12:25:50 <Vorpal> hrrm... clock_gettime is /very/ broken on cygwin
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12:38:05 <Vorpal> also cygwin headers are broken if you use -std=c99 when using _POSIX_C_SOURCE
12:38:19 <Vorpal> they just hide stuff based in __STRICT_ANSI__
12:40:37 <elliott> Vorpal: Can I have access to your Windows box?
12:40:39 <elliott> :(
12:40:43 <Vorpal> elliott, no, why?
12:40:55 <elliott> I need to test some stuff.
12:40:56 <Vorpal> it is windows, I wouldn't trust it to do multi user stuff securely
12:41:10 <Vorpal> elliott, I could compile something not too large under cygwin if you want.
12:41:30 <Vorpal> (remember cygwin is slow at fork()...)
12:42:02 <Vorpal> seriously, what is up with the headers on cygwin, --std=gnu99 didn't show everything
12:42:18 <Vorpal> like, it doesn't show strdup!
12:43:55 <Vorpal> wow, -std=gnu99 does not define _GNU_SOURCE under cygwin... That is so broken
12:44:28 <Gregor> ... uh...
12:44:31 <Gregor> Those are unrelated.
12:44:39 <Vorpal> Gregor, hm, pretty sure they were related?
12:44:40 <Gregor> -std=gnu99 should not define _GNU_SOURCE anywhere.
12:44:51 <Gregor> In fact, -std=gnu99 does NOT define _GNU_SOURCE anywhere.
12:44:53 <Gregor> Not even on glibc.
12:45:00 <Vorpal> pretty sure it used to? Or maybe it was -std=gnu89 that did?
12:45:03 <Gregor> Never.
12:45:13 <Vorpal> hm okayt
12:45:27 <Vorpal> anyway cygwin thinks strdup is _GNU_SOURCE
12:45:30 <Vorpal> it is POSIX dammit
12:45:32 <Gregor> If !STRICT_ANSI, then glibc gives you something like _POSIX_C_SOURCE=somethingerather _XOPEN_SOURCE=somethingerather
12:45:34 <Vorpal> well, XSI
12:46:27 <Vorpal> Gregor, well, I'm using -std=c99 -D_POSIX_C_SOURCE=200112L -D_XOPEN_SOURCE=600, and that isn't doing the right thing on cygwin
12:46:41 <Vorpal> due to STRICT_ANSI
12:46:54 <Gregor> Yeah, then that's broken :)
12:47:06 <Gregor> But then, it's Cygwin. Broken is the norm 8-D
12:47:27 <Vorpal> well yes
12:47:39 <Vorpal> why do I keep using nano shortcuts in emacs and emacs shortcuts in nano today -_-
12:50:04 <Vorpal> also altgr keeps activating the god damn window-icon menu of windows
12:50:06 <Vorpal> -_-
12:50:49 <Gregor> No good can come of using Windows, Vorpal.
12:50:51 <Gregor> That's just a fact.
12:51:00 <Vorpal> Gregor, true.
12:52:07 <Vorpal> warning: array subscript has type 'char' <-- huh?
12:52:20 <Vorpal> that seems perfectly legit to me as long as you have a small enough array
12:54:08 <Deewiant> The reasoning is that char is sometimes signed, and using plain char you might expect it to be unsigned
12:54:18 <Vorpal> right
12:54:46 <Vorpal> Strange that I don't get that warning on Linux with gcc
12:55:30 <kallisti> sauerkraut is so good.
12:55:44 <kallisti> thought you should know.
12:56:48 <itidus21> x = foo[-50];
12:56:57 <itidus21> weird.
12:57:00 <kallisti> Gregor: I think the reason web apps are so popular is everyone would rather deal with that shit than deal with Windows.
12:57:15 <elliott> Deewiant: You use Windows, right???
12:57:23 <Deewiant> Occasionally.
12:57:23 <elliott> Deewiant: You've used PDCurses, right????????????
12:57:39 <Deewiant> Sometimes.
12:57:42 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, I could compile something not too large under cygwin if you want.
12:57:46 <elliott> it's actually non-cygwin i'm concerned about alas
12:58:08 <elliott> Deewiant: Do you want to..... combine these interests????????????????????
12:58:34 <Deewiant> I've only ever used PDCurses on Windows, so I've already combined them.
12:58:38 <Deewiant> What're you after?
12:58:48 <Vorpal> elliott, what is it then?
12:58:57 <Vorpal> elliott, I have Visual Studio 2010 Ultimate as well
12:59:07 <Vorpal> (from MSDNAA)
13:00:27 <elliott> Deewiant: I have this piece of code that has its own awful Win32 code and a POSIXy backend that uses ncurses. I want to see if I can axe the former and simply make the latter happen to not actually depend on POSIX at all, so I can just use PDCurses on Windows. But I don't have access to Windows : - (
13:00:36 <elliott> I might just see if this kind-of-weak machine can support an XP VM.
13:00:39 <elliott> But I doubt it.
13:01:05 <Vorpal> okay wtf, as far as I can tell from the build process it should have TERM, yet it isn't there
13:01:35 <Vorpal> hm
13:02:02 <elliott> Deewiant: Another alternative might be MinGW cross-compilation, but uh... setting up PDCurses in such an environment sounds painful.
13:02:19 <kallisti> set up RDP or teamviewer on someone's windows desktop
13:02:21 <kallisti> to test it
13:02:26 * kallisti has had to do that a couple of times.
13:02:41 <elliott> yes, now all I need is a "someone"
13:03:16 <Deewiant> elliott: What's there to set up, all you need is the library?
13:04:02 <kallisti> elliott: just write the code perfectly the first time. What's the big deal?
13:04:33 <elliott> Deewiant: I don't actually know. Compiling on Windows natively is kind of a weirdly new and baffling experience for me. I'm not at all sure how it works.
13:05:03 <kallisti> elliott: C/C++? VS seems to be the best way to go these days.
13:05:24 <kallisti> it's also a huge pain in the ass to set compile options in a GUI. :(
13:06:27 <kallisti> maybe that's not what you're confused about though..
13:06:35 <elliott> I'd rather use MinGW... dealing with another compiler's foibles seems a bit painful, and I know even less about a non-GNU toolchain.
13:07:06 <kallisti> does MinGW link to the Windows DLLs?
13:07:14 <kallisti> I thought it uses its own.
13:07:19 -!- sirdancealot7 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
13:07:42 <Vorpal> it does link to them afaik
13:07:53 <Vorpal> and unlike cygwin it doesn't add a layer in between
13:08:14 <Vorpal> elliott, I found 64-bit XP to be considerably lighter on VMs than 32-bit XP)
13:08:18 <kallisti> oh okay. sure. do that.
13:08:23 <Vorpal> s/)$//
13:08:26 <Vorpal> no idea why
13:08:35 <elliott> Vorpal: huh
13:09:18 <Vorpal> elliott, I think it is because it is based on a server OS (2003 server iirc?) rather than a client OS
13:09:44 <fizzie> It (also AFAIK) does link to the MSVC runtime, yes.
13:10:12 <elliott> I wonder if PDCurses works on Win64.
13:10:14 <elliott> I bet fizzie knows.
13:10:21 <kallisti> right, what I actually meant was "doesn't it link to its own DLL layer"? but apparently it doesn't
13:10:35 <fizzie> I would be surprised if pdcurses didn't, but I can't be absolutely sure.
13:10:58 <fizzie> MinGW also (IIRC) uses kinda hacky header files, there's some kind of GCCified <windows.h> etc.
13:13:35 <Vorpal> hm, stdscr from ncurses is not an lvalue on cygwin
13:14:12 <Vorpal> yet the code looks the same
13:14:17 <Vorpal> (in the header)
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13:14:53 <kallisti> Vorpal: is it a macro? maybe something inside the macro is defined differently
13:15:12 <Vorpal> kallisti, indeed the case, can't find where the macro is defined yet though
13:17:27 <Vorpal> well, I can find the definition on cygwin... but not on linux
13:17:41 -!- Taneb has joined.
13:17:42 <Taneb> Hello!
13:17:49 <Vorpal> kallisti, how can grep -R on /usr/include not find the definition of NCURSES_PUBLIC_VAR
13:17:52 <Vorpal> this makes no sense
13:17:59 <kallisti> Vorpal: because you gave it a bad regex
13:18:04 <kallisti> >_>
13:18:06 <kallisti> or it isn't there.
13:18:18 * kallisti exhausts the possibilities
13:18:22 <Vorpal> kallisti, I can find uses of it
13:18:28 <Vorpal> and I grepped for a plain string
13:18:37 <Vorpal> fgrep -R NCURSES_PUBLIC_VAR /usr/include/
13:18:49 <Vorpal> surely it must be there for the code to compile, since it is used
13:19:04 <kallisti> might be passed in as a -D flag?
13:19:23 <Vorpal> hm
13:19:32 <Vorpal> or it seems it is hidden inside some ifdef
13:19:36 <Vorpal> far away
13:19:37 <Vorpal> oh well
13:20:46 <kallisti> sudo grep -R /
13:21:16 <Vorpal> no, it was a #ifdef way far out
13:21:41 <Vorpal> so that code isn't actually compiled presumably
13:22:31 <kallisti> Vorpal: check makefiles for various -D flags
13:26:57 <elliott> Vorpal: do you know where i can find a completely legitimate copy of winxp x64
13:27:10 <Vorpal> elliott, are you a student at a university?
13:27:13 <Vorpal> then MSDNAA
13:27:24 <Vorpal> elliott, otherwise: no clue
13:28:01 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, you can run 32-bit programs on win64, so <elliott> I wonder if PDCurses works on Win64. is not really an issue
13:28:45 <elliott> Vorpal: by completely legitimate i mean completely illegitimate
13:28:54 <Vorpal> no idea about that either
13:29:04 <Vorpal> elliott, try the usual locations?
13:29:12 <elliott> yes ok
13:29:25 <elliott> Vorpal: which "edition" do you have
13:29:27 <elliott> corporate?
13:29:32 <Vorpal> elliott, pro I believe?
13:29:46 <Vorpal> I don't know what the corporate edition is
13:29:58 <Vorpal> is it the volume license thingy?
13:30:03 <elliott> "Windows XP Professional 64 bit Corporate Edition"
13:30:04 <elliott> lord knows what it is
13:30:25 <fizzie> They had those things that don't do as much activation nonsense.
13:30:34 <fizzie> Or something. (Is no expert.)
13:30:45 <Vorpal> elliott, it could be that fancy volume license thingy that allows any number of licenses for a given company or so?
13:30:54 <Vorpal> err, any number of installations*
13:32:41 * Sgeo thinks that if Tcl is not going to use [] to surround top-level commands, it should at least have a built-in identity command more concise than return -level 0
13:33:00 <elliott> Vorpal: does virtualbox have drivers for xp x64
13:35:45 <elliott> access to this website has been denied
13:35:45 <elliott> We have been ordered by the High Court to prevent access to this website as it operates unlawfully. This is a legal obligation that we must comply with. The Court has found that the site and its users infringe copyright material in the UK.
13:35:45 <elliott> Orange does not monitor customer's activities nor will we disclose personal details or any information about our customers to any third party unless legally compelled to do so.
13:35:51 <elliott> urhgurhgurghruhgh fuck off you shitbags
13:36:02 <Vorpal> elliott, pretty sure it does yes
13:36:07 <Vorpal> since I used them :P
13:37:11 <elliott> bleh, there seems to be no information on this "Corporate Edition" that i am suspicious of
13:37:34 <Vorpal> hm
13:37:35 <Sgeo> Oh, [lindex] works as id for one argument
13:37:51 <Vorpal> elliott, well, 32-bit XP might run too. Or you could go for 2003 Server
13:39:56 <Vorpal> elliott, german wikipedia has a "corporate edition" page that mentions windows xp, it interwiki links to "volume license key"
13:40:06 <elliott> hmm
13:40:43 <Vorpal> dammit, waybackmachine is broken on one link due to robots.txt
13:47:44 <Vorpal> hm xubuntu installer crashed
13:47:58 <Vorpal> seems it doesn't like either linux software raid or lvm2
13:48:41 <Vorpal> elliott, btw I love my desktop, I can run at least three non-trivial virtual machines without it becoming unresponsive. Haven't tried more
13:49:00 <Vorpal> (one windows 7, one xubuntu and one windows xp 64-bit now)
13:49:51 <Vorpal> (in total they have 8 GB RAM allocated)
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13:51:12 <fizzie> I just "synclient PalmDetect=1"'d and am now wondering why I didn't try it before.
13:52:11 <elliott> What does it do?
13:52:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, you have a Palm?
13:53:44 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yes, my Hand has a Palm.
13:54:08 <fizzie> Vorpal: (And the laptop has a synaptics touchpad which has a palm-detect thing for the "misclicks from your palm when typing" thing.)
13:54:31 <Vorpal> XD
13:54:40 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh, so not a Palm PDA
13:54:56 <Vorpal> it looked like you were trying to sync with it
13:54:58 <Vorpal> or something
13:55:03 <fizzie> Heh. Right, no.
13:55:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway I'm pretty sure I can set the palm detect thing from gpointer-settings or whatever it is called
13:55:43 <Vorpal> I have an ALPS though
13:55:49 <Vorpal> still uses the synaptics driver iirc
13:56:02 <fizzie> This is a xfce thing, the graphical settings things are kind of bare.
13:56:13 <fizzie> I haven't found out a way to enable a Compose key yet. :p
13:56:32 <Vorpal> ah right
13:56:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, think I did it in my .xinitrc by some xkb commands or such
13:57:07 <Vorpal> or I did it from gnome 2 and then it just carried over into xfce
13:57:10 <Vorpal> that is also possible
13:57:24 <fizzie> Possibly.
13:57:25 <Vorpal> I'm currently on a gnome 2 laptop
13:57:26 <fizzie> Speaking of Palm, there's some kind of a Palm Pre(?) compatibility thing for the N900.
13:57:31 <Vorpal> heh?
13:57:32 <fizzie> (They use the same hardware.)
13:57:36 <Vorpal> nice
13:57:45 <Vorpal> same CPU? Or more than that?
13:58:01 <fizzie> Well, same OMAP3 platform, so CPU, GPU and other such things.
13:58:06 <Vorpal> right
13:58:11 <fizzie> Different sensors and whatnot, but anyway.
13:58:19 <fizzie> It doesn't run everything, but apparently it runs many game-like things that only do fullscreen OpenGL ES stuffs.
13:58:37 <Vorpal> did Palm Pre have many of those?
13:58:57 <fizzie> I don't really know. I think it has a couple. Though not really any sort of iOS-grade appcosystem.
13:59:02 <fizzie> (It's like an ecosystem for apps.)
13:59:18 <Vorpal> I was under the impression that Palm was very much a work device, targeted at corporations
14:00:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, btw, do you know if there is any good open source real time OS?
14:00:33 <Vorpal> vxworks is kind of out of my league for hobby projects
14:01:05 <Vorpal> I know there have been various RT versions of linux, but I don't know much about them
14:01:57 <fizzie> I don't know that much about RT either. QNX has been used for soft-ish realtime stuffs.
14:02:06 <fizzie> It's not open source either, of course.
14:02:34 <Vorpal> fizzie, I want hardish real time in this case anyway
14:02:51 <fizzie> And people who work at companies do play games too. :p
14:02:57 <Vorpal> sure
14:03:52 <fizzie> http://www.gamespot.com/palm-webos/games.html?games=popular okay the selection doesn't look too impressive. :p
14:04:15 <Vorpal> indeed
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14:51:40 <fizzie> The weirdest, 19 entries in the 1k competition.
14:51:44 <fizzie> It's so popular.
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15:03:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh?
15:03:48 <Vorpal> btw, why is it that designing software is so much more fun than implementing software.
15:08:40 <fizzie> Oldskool kombo had the typical 4 entries.
15:08:54 <fizzie> This year they have a fixed list of platforms, and organizer-provided hardware.
15:09:00 <Vorpal> hm
15:09:01 <fizzie> A fixed and a reasonably short list.
15:09:07 <Vorpal> which event is this?
15:09:21 <fizzie> It's the Assembly one.
15:09:24 <fizzie> "The following platforms are allowed, no exceptions:
15:09:24 <fizzie> Commodore 64 + 1541-II
15:09:24 <fizzie> Commodore Plus/4 + 1551 / 1541-II
15:09:24 <fizzie> Commodore Amiga 500, 1MB Agnus, 512k chip/512k slow, Kickstart 1.3
15:09:24 <fizzie> Atari ST, 1MB, double sided floppy
15:09:27 <fizzie> Atari 130xe + floppy
15:09:29 <fizzie> MSX1 + 3.5" drive
15:09:32 <fizzie> Sinclair Spectrum 128k + tape
15:09:34 <fizzie> Amstrad CPC6128"
15:09:37 <fizzie> That's not long. It doesn't even have the VIC-20.
15:09:45 <fizzie> Or many others you could name, but anyway.
15:09:54 <fizzie> NES or such, for example.
15:09:57 <Vorpal> right
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15:10:19 <Vorpal> fizzie, also no modern systems at all
15:10:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, I could imagine 1K for Arduino or such
15:10:34 <fizzie> Oh, that's not for 1k.
15:10:36 <Vorpal> (or however you spell that)
15:10:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, well 1K would be 1Kb programs? no?
15:10:51 <fizzie> Yes.
15:10:56 <fizzie> But that's for modern platforms.
15:11:14 <Vorpal> oh right
15:11:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, so which platforms is 1k for then?
15:11:27 <fizzie> See, they have an oldschool compo with no size limits (well, except those imposed by those platforms), which had 4 entries, and a separate 1k competition where the compo machine is a modern thing.
15:11:34 <fizzie> There were Linux, Windows and OS X entries.
15:11:39 <fizzie> But the hardware's x86.
15:11:40 <Vorpal> ah
15:11:43 <Vorpal> and this year?
15:11:53 <elliott> Vorpal: how much ram does xp 64 bit want
15:12:07 <Vorpal> elliott, let me see what I give it on the virtual machine on my laptop
15:12:21 <fizzie> What about this year? All I've said applies to this year.
15:12:27 <Vorpal> elliott, on my desktop I usually just throw 2 GB on anything that isn't windows 7 (in which case I throw 4 GB at it)
15:13:07 <Vorpal> elliott, on my laptop with 2 GB RAM I give winxp 64 pro 516 MB RAM
15:13:29 <Vorpal> it isn't super fast, but it is much more responsive than 32-bit windows xp under the same conditions
15:13:43 <elliott> mm
15:13:45 <Vorpal> and no I don't know why it is 516 instead of 512
15:13:46 <elliott> I'll give 512
15:14:05 <elliott> how much storage space did you allocate :P
15:14:38 <Vorpal> 20 GB, dynamic allocated though. No idea how much of that is used
15:14:41 <Vorpal> let me see
15:15:03 <Vorpal> well it doesn't look like I shrunk that recently
15:15:08 <Vorpal> since the disk image is 17 GB
15:15:14 <Vorpal> pretty sure it is less than that though
15:15:22 <Vorpal> elliott, I do have some software installed on it
15:15:23 <Vorpal> so...
15:15:43 <elliott> mm
15:15:49 <Vorpal> oh wait, 17 GB was windows 7
15:15:59 <Vorpal> the winxp image use 8.9 GB
15:16:04 <Vorpal> for the 64-bit one
15:16:09 <elliott> right
15:16:10 <Vorpal> 4.8 for the 32-bit one
15:16:11 <elliott> I'll just assign 20 gigs
15:16:16 <elliott> it's dynamically-allocated anyway
15:16:17 <Vorpal> should be fine yeah
15:16:22 <Vorpal> indeed
15:16:32 <Vorpal> elliott, I did that on IDE
15:16:38 <Vorpal> elliott, because windows xp fails at SATA
15:16:50 <Vorpal> couldn't find 64-bit drivers that worked with XP
15:16:52 <elliott> does it
15:16:53 <elliott> ugh
15:16:56 <Vorpal> during install at least
15:16:57 <elliott> they don't come by default?
15:17:08 <elliott> any other virtualbox configuration i should know about?
15:17:10 <Vorpal> elliott, nope, on xp you had to put in a floppy or something with the SATA drivers
15:17:15 <Vorpal> elliott, even on real machines
15:17:32 <Vorpal> elliott, you might need to install ethernet drivers. They don't come with windows either usually :P
15:17:40 <elliott> : /
15:18:07 <Vorpal> elliott, apart from that, read through the help for the machine config in virtual box and make an informed decision on each one
15:18:09 <Vorpal> :P
15:18:29 <Vorpal> elliott, like you want IO APIC on
15:18:36 <Vorpal> machine clock in UTC off
15:18:48 <Vorpal> not sure about absolute pointing device
15:18:57 <Vorpal> I think my xp install in virtualbox predates that option
15:19:24 <elliott> but it says IO APIC will decrease performance : (
15:19:24 <Vorpal> elliott, for 64-bit you need to activate VT-x (or the AMD equiv)
15:19:31 <Vorpal> elliott, oh okay, does it? Hm
15:19:51 <Vorpal> not 100% sure, but 64-bit might require it
15:19:53 <Vorpal> read the manual
15:20:31 <elliott> which manual : (
15:20:36 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, for 64-bit you need to activate VT-x (or the AMD equiv)
15:20:36 <elliott> oh
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15:20:39 <elliott> i forgot about this.
15:20:43 <elliott> i do not have hardware virtualisation
15:20:45 <Vorpal> elliott, there is a help button in the config dialogue?
15:20:49 <elliott> gues i'll throw this torrent away
15:20:53 <Vorpal> it opens a manual for me?
15:20:54 <elliott> and i meant virtualbox or windows manual
15:21:02 <Vorpal> virtualbox one
15:21:16 <Vorpal> you are on an Atom or something?
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15:21:21 <Vorpal> or how do you not have VT-x
15:21:30 <elliott> "pentium" which is a rebranded core 2 duo ulv
15:21:40 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm on a core 2 duo and I have VT-x
15:21:42 <elliott> lower-end core 2s don't have thingy
15:21:45 <elliott> virtualisation
15:21:46 <Vorpal> hm
15:21:59 <Vorpal> elliott, I guess 2.26 GHz isn't lower-end then?
15:22:05 <Vorpal> model name: Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU P8400 @ 2.26GHz
15:22:12 <Vorpal> flags: fpu vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 apic sep mtrr pge mca cmov pat pse36 clflush dts acpi mmx fxsr sse sse2 ss ht tm pbe syscall nx lm constant_tsc arch_perfmon pebs bts rep_good nopl aperfmperf pni dtes64 monitor ds_cpl vmx smx est tm2 ssse3 cx16 xtpr pdcm sse4_1 lahf_lm dts tpr_shadow vnmi flexpriority
15:22:20 <elliott> 1.33 here
15:22:47 <Vorpal> elliott, you might try windows 95. Your system might just be able to handle that
15:23:19 <elliott> very funey
15:23:27 <Vorpal> Actually probably not, I have problems emulating that under virtualbox on this machine
15:23:35 <Vorpal> probably driver issues mostly though
15:23:40 <elliott> i've successfully emulated win 95 in virtualbox
15:23:45 <elliott> with full resolution graphics
15:23:56 <Vorpal> yeah, it just didn't run very fast
15:23:59 <Vorpal> which was strange
15:24:11 <Vorpal> maybe it did something that was bad for VT-x, don't know
15:25:09 <elliott> you need some things to make it run fast
15:25:12 <elliott> thingies
15:25:28 <Vorpal> oh?
15:25:33 <Vorpal> such as?
15:25:36 <elliott> idk
15:25:37 <elliott> it'd been so long
15:25:50 <Vorpal> anyway I don't need it any more, I got planescape running under windows 7 64-bit
15:26:15 <Vorpal> haven't gotten very far though
15:26:56 <Vorpal> the thing that those old games do where it voice acts like a couple of the lines but not most of them throws me off.
15:27:04 <Vorpal> or in the planescape case, a couple of the words
15:28:36 <kallisti> elliott: more programming books should be like Why's Poignant Guide
15:28:56 <kallisti> LYAH is very similar, maybe even a bit better (more to-the-point)
15:29:50 <Vorpal> personally I really don't like that style
15:29:52 <Sgeo> I think my main reason for liking Tcl more than a Lisp-family language is ecosystem worries
15:30:03 <kallisti> Vorpal: this is become
15:30:07 <kallisti> s/become/because/
15:30:09 * Sgeo shuts up
15:30:09 <kallisti> `? Vorpal
15:30:16 <HackEgo> Vorpal is really boring. Seriously, you have no idea.
15:30:36 <Vorpal> kallisti, indeed, I prefer the technical documentation approach
15:30:51 <Sgeo> `? Sgeo
15:30:54 <HackEgo> Sgeo invented Metaplace sex.
15:31:01 <Vorpal> what is metaplace?
15:31:05 <Vorpal> `? kallisti
15:31:09 <HackEgo> kallisti is a former prophet swearing off his pastry deity
15:31:21 <Sgeo> It was a virtual isometric world
15:31:35 <kallisti> I think MUDs invented metaplace sex.
15:31:41 <kallisti> I will let you ponder how this even makes sense.
15:32:08 -!- azaq23 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
15:33:15 <Taneb> `? Taneb
15:33:18 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask.
15:33:24 <Taneb> `? Ngevd
15:33:28 <HackEgo> ​.\z/0.\w.tJ/KkV(.Ǘ6.WMSk..,XojKkW..QR1.kEĮ3=.Vp.@.ɛ|*H߼gCy&..jAm.N|E.sm .FBqEK..djKI|.) .M.~vC?L'.v.d!;.ZT..B..֦lM..`q!䇽5ڝՐNr*.(E..8⠤.5
15:33:40 * Sgeo alarums
15:33:58 * Sgeo alarums at his abuse of the word "alarum"
15:34:01 <Taneb> `? Hexham
15:34:03 <HackEgo> Hexham is a European town. There are nine people in Hexham, and at least two of them are in this channel. Taneb looks after the ham.
15:34:14 <Sgeo> .... or not?
15:34:14 <Sgeo> http://www.thefreedictionary.com/alarum
15:34:28 <Sgeo> I never realized it actually could be related to alarms. Thought it was just a stage thing
15:34:43 <Sgeo> And that my use of "alarum" for "alarm" was therefore amusing.
15:34:50 <elliott> Taneb: it,s storm. help
15:35:05 <Taneb> elliott, get indoors
15:35:26 <elliott> im indors
15:35:26 <elliott> help
15:35:37 <Taneb> Do you have a roof?
15:36:32 <FreeFull> Sgeo: I've been recently learning S-Lang
15:36:38 <Taneb> I'll take that as a no
15:36:43 <Taneb> Get a roof, urgently
15:36:55 <elliott> Taneb: i have a roof
15:36:55 <elliott> help
15:37:02 <Deewiant> Close any open doors and windows
15:37:03 <Taneb> How about walls?
15:37:08 <elliott> done and done
15:37:13 <Taneb> Don't close your IRC window!
15:37:36 <elliott> im not
15:37:42 <Sgeo> FreeFull, uh, this thing? http://www.s-lang.org/
15:38:10 <Taneb> elliott, don't panic!
15:39:11 <FreeFull> Sgeo: Yes
15:39:27 <FreeFull> Some features are actually pretty neat
15:39:29 <Sgeo> It doesn't look very Lisp-like
15:39:46 <FreeFull> It's more C like
15:39:47 <Sgeo> But I didn't look that hard
15:39:54 <FreeFull> I'm just randomly saying stuff
15:39:58 <FreeFull> I'm not suggesting it to you
15:40:05 <Sgeo> I thought you were a Lispy person
15:40:16 <Sgeo> I don't hate Lisp, I hate the ecosystem.
15:41:02 <FreeFull> I actually mostly write software in C
15:41:10 <FreeFull> But randomly do stuff in other languages
15:42:24 <Sgeo> Also CL's lack of coroutines isn't nice
15:42:35 <Sgeo> *non-hacky coroutines
15:42:45 <FreeFull> One cool thing about s-lang is that if you have an array x, and do x++, all members of x will be incremented by one
15:42:57 <FreeFull> And you can do that sort of stuff with more complicated expressions too
15:43:08 <FreeFull> I don't particularly like Common Lisp myself
15:43:52 <FreeFull> I suggest Racket or Clojure if you want a lisp
15:44:23 <Sgeo> Racket -- empty ecosystem, Clojure -- JVM compromises
15:45:02 <FreeFull> In s-lang, you can do something like variable x = sin([0:255]*PI/128.0);
15:45:09 <Sgeo> Although, I think I was recently put off Racket by one measly bad experience when I couldn't find a sprintf-like that fit my needs built-in
15:45:16 <Sgeo> Didn't bother looking for libraries :/
15:45:21 <Sgeo> Instead, just used Python
15:45:57 <FreeFull> Which is equivalent of this in C: double x[256]; int i; for(i=0;i<256;i++) { x = sin(i*M_PI/128.0); }
15:46:57 <FreeFull> Racket is all about libraries and sublanguages
15:47:29 <FreeFull> Python does have good libraries
15:48:23 <elliott> x = map (\i -> sin (i*pi/128)) [0..255]
15:48:29 <elliott> or even
15:48:46 <elliott> x = map (sin . (*(pi/128))) [0..255]
15:48:50 <elliott> might be able to drop some parens there actually!
15:50:27 <FreeFull> elliott: Is this python?
15:50:48 <Sgeo> FreeFull, Haskell
15:51:26 <elliott> haskell
15:51:34 <FreeFull> On the other hand Common Lisp doesn't even have range functionality built in
15:51:37 <elliott> x = [sin (i*pi/128) | i <- [0..255]]
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15:51:44 <FreeFull> And ends up with way too many parens
15:51:48 <elliott> cat-skinning ad infinitum
15:52:06 * Sgeo doesn't mind the parens, except for the resulting neccessity of using a good editor
15:52:19 <elliott> what an awful necessity
15:52:24 <Sgeo> Erm, hmm, I think Notepad++ is probably sufficient for that aspect
15:52:28 <FreeFull> Does haskell have a repl?
15:52:42 <elliott> FreeFull: there are haskell implementations with repls, yes
15:52:42 <Sgeo> FreeFull, yes, sort of, but until recently it wasn't really full
15:52:47 <elliott> most importantly GHC, the only one anyone uses
15:53:02 <elliott> Sgeo: that's an inaccurate statement, really -- it is a property of implementations, not the language
15:53:26 <elliott> ghci has at least very well supported the kind of slime-style editor+repl hybrid style popular in lisp communities
15:53:27 <FreeFull> s-lang doesn't really have much functional programming stuff
15:53:31 <elliott> for roughly ever
15:55:13 <fizzie> The thing about VT-x is that you can't really tell from the processor brand, since it's a market segmentation tool.
15:55:17 <fizzie> Some Atoms do VT-x too.
15:56:46 <FreeFull> Checking for vt-x is easy software-wise, but you can only do that once you have the hardware
15:57:29 <fizzie> Well, checking it beforehand is "easy" since you can just look at http://ark.intel.com/Products/VirtualizationTechnology
15:57:35 <Vorpal> you could look up the model number of the CPU too
15:57:40 <Vorpal> before you order the CPU
15:57:48 <fizzie> It's just that you can't tell offhand, if you don't have that list memorized.
15:58:39 <Vorpal> what about AMD, do they do both with and without their virtualisation technology?
15:59:01 <fizzie> That I don't know. Probably, though.
16:07:46 -!- asiekierka has quit (Quit: Connection reset by PO).
16:10:35 * Sgeo wants to destroy all single-dispatch OO systems
16:10:47 <Sgeo> ...ok, so maybe I'm not actually that hate-filled
16:10:56 <Sgeo> But multiple-dispatch makes more sense to me
16:19:26 -!- calamari has joined.
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16:36:37 <kallisti> Sgeo: you are sipping some delicious Tcl kool-aid aren't you?
16:36:58 -!- davidwerecat has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
16:37:55 <Sgeo> Not sure what preferring multiple-dispatch has to do with Tcl, especially since the various OO systems I've seen for Tcl including TclOO are single-dispatch, although I imagine Clojure-style multiple-dispatch is very easy to do in a hacky way
16:39:14 <kallisti> oh I thought tcloo was multi-dispatch
16:39:23 <fizzie> Vorpal: Continuing on my party report series: "real wild" (i.e. anything that can display realtime graphics; YouScope was here, etc.) had 7 entries, of which 5 were just regular mobile things (iOS, Windows Phone, 3*Android), 1 was a WebGL/browser thing, and the final one was the only interesting one. (It was an otherwise unmodified Apple Lisa except with some custom hardware for sound and DVI ...
16:39:29 <fizzie> ... output, by some folks from http://www.club.cc.cmu.edu/.)
16:40:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, youscope was from assembly?
16:40:11 <Vorpal> nice
16:40:16 <Sgeo> kallisti, I wish
16:40:22 <Vorpal> are you at assembly right now?
16:40:34 <fizzie> Yeah, 2007.
16:40:36 <fizzie> And yes.
16:41:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, this whole weekend=
16:41:18 <Vorpal> s/=/?/
16:41:26 <kallisti> IIUC, multiple dispatch is a lot like typeclasses.
16:41:29 <fizzie> I've been sleeping at home like an old man.
16:41:36 <kallisti> specifically multi-parameter type classes
16:41:42 <fizzie> And probably won't bother coming back on Sunday since nothing interesting is happening.
16:41:44 <[]{}\|-_`^> fizzie: do you have a computer place?
16:41:50 <fizzie> But it's Thu-Sun technically.
16:42:17 <fizzie> []{}\|-_`^: Yeah, O10/5 or something.
16:42:26 <[]{}\|-_`^> O?
16:42:37 <fizzie> It's the oldskool room thing thing.
16:42:43 <[]{}\|-_`^> oh
16:42:54 <[]{}\|-_`^> I am at B16/8
16:46:36 <[]{}\|-_`^> Vorpal: are you at assembly?
16:46:37 <fizzie> The hall is kind of much more Assemblyish than this place. For one thing, it's (for the most part) not dark here at all.
16:46:50 <fizzie> But they hold the ArtTech seminars right next, so I can just sit here and listen to them.
16:49:25 <[]{}\|-_`^> fizzie: is oldskool room thing accesible by anyone?
16:49:42 <Sgeo> "Side note: I considered multiple dispatch for TclOO, but instead went
16:49:42 <Sgeo> for [proc]-like 'args' support as being more Tcl-ish. Can't really have
16:49:42 <Sgeo> both at the same time without the whole complicated business of a type
16:49:42 <Sgeo> system and well again, not Tcl-ish enough."
16:51:45 <fizzie> []{}\|-_`^: At least in practice it is. Probably in theory too.
16:52:03 <fizzie> Some earlier years there's been "vip tickets only" signs, but this year I haven't seen those.
16:52:14 <fizzie> Considering that the seminars are here, that probably wouldn't really work anyway.
16:52:38 <Vorpal> []{}\|-_`^, who are you?
16:52:40 <Vorpal> and no
16:52:51 <Vorpal> oh nortti
16:53:04 <Vorpal> why would I be at assembly, isn't that a Finnish thing
16:53:14 <fizzie> Vorpal: There are quite a few visitors from abroad.
16:53:23 <Vorpal> oh okay
16:53:24 <fizzie> We had some Swedes right next to our places last year.
16:53:38 <fizzie> Though I would guesstimate at least 90% are Finns, still.
16:54:22 <fizzie> Quite a large percentage of not really demoscene people too; they have a gaming-specialized area, and gaming tournaments and so on, too.
16:54:32 <fizzie> I'd be more indignant but I'm currently installing that Death Rally game.
16:54:33 <Vorpal> right
16:54:49 <Vorpal> fizzie, I just watched a video of it. Is that a coincidence?
16:54:52 * kallisti has been working on a hard sci-fi setting for tabletop games.
16:54:56 <Vorpal> the guy said it had no sense of speed
16:55:00 <Vorpal> and very short races
16:55:03 <kallisti> essentially depicting the early early days of human space colonization, within our own solar system
16:55:08 <Vorpal> or is this the original Death Rally?
16:55:16 <fizzie> Vorpal: This is the new one.
16:55:32 <fizzie> Vorpal: Remedy people were giving out Steam codes for free.
16:55:37 <Vorpal> ah
16:55:39 <fizzie> I remember playing the original some, though.
16:55:53 <Vorpal> anyway, it doesn't seem very good
16:56:07 <[]{}\|-_`^> I had very good luck with computers this year. I managed to render my computer unbootable in 2 hours and I got it working again today when I installed mintppc on my mac
16:56:49 <fizzie> Vorpal: Haven't installed it yet. But that's very possible. (Was the video about the PC port? I gather they have mobile versions too.)
16:57:00 <[]{}\|-_`^> so I was without computer whole friday and most of thursday
16:57:13 <Vorpal> I need to unify my music library, every computer and/or device has a slightly different set of music currently, and none is a superset of all the other ones
16:57:20 <calamari> []{}\|-_`^: withdrawals?
16:57:30 <Vorpal> also I believe some computers have the same stuff in flac that other ones have in ogg
16:57:33 <[]{}\|-_`^> calamari: what?
16:57:41 <fizzie> []{}\|-_`^: mooz had a completely broken system for pretty much the entire duration of... Assembly 1999 or so, I think.
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16:57:59 <fizzie> []{}\|-_`^: He spent the whole weekend playing some DOS game from a floppy, if I recall correctly.
16:58:03 <fizzie> Paratroopers or something.
16:58:07 <[]{}\|-_`^> :P
16:58:14 <calamari> []{}\|-_`^: did you experience computer withdrawal?
16:58:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, yes the video was about the port
16:58:27 <[]{}\|-_`^> calamari: no
16:58:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, totalbiscuit, if you know who that is
16:58:55 <fizzie> Vorpal: I think I've heard the name and watched a thing once.
16:59:13 <fizzie> Vorpal: I've been watching ineiros play it for a few minutes now, and it doesn't really seem bad, just mediocre.
16:59:18 <fizzie> But who knows.
16:59:20 <Vorpal> anyway, apparently it was a reasonable port (rebindable keys, resolution options) but it didn't look all that much better than the iOS version, and the gameplay was very much iOS-oriented
16:59:46 <Vorpal> (short laps, like slightly over 1 minute for a 3 lap race, and no sense of speed when driving)
17:00:04 <fizzie> The old one felt quite terribly fast at times.
17:00:10 <fizzie> I guess I could try it out now, though.
17:00:14 <Vorpal> sure, why not
17:00:21 <Vorpal> ineiros, hi there!
17:00:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, well, say hi to him from me
17:00:46 <fizzie> You got a "hi" back.
17:00:49 <Vorpal> nice
17:02:04 <Vorpal> why does the "recommended" bar on youtube have like 10 happy wheel videos... I don't even watch those. I watched like one ages ago and decided it was crap
17:02:19 <elliott> fizzie: Did you refer to him as "that bc x vah guy"?
17:03:21 <Vorpal> elliott, hey you got it wrong :P
17:03:25 <[]{}\|-_`^> Vorpal: I was once sent link to my little pony video. youtube recommended me pony videos for 3 monts
17:03:34 <Vorpal> hah
17:03:47 <Vorpal> also why that terrible nick?
17:04:11 <[]{}\|-_`^> it should be on the logs
17:05:41 <Vorpal> oh well, too much work
17:07:58 <[]{}\|-_`^> 20:28 < nortti> I think that []{}\|-_ are legal but otherwise it must be alphanumeric
17:08:01 <[]{}\|-_`^> 20:29 -!- Taneb is now known as [-]
17:08:04 <[]{}\|-_`^> 20:29 -!- [-] is now known as Taneb
17:08:06 <[]{}\|-_`^> 20:29 < fizzie> nortti: ` and ^ too.
17:08:32 <[]{}\|-_`^> 20:30 -!- You're now known as []{}\|-_`^
17:08:38 <Taneb> I can't remember if I registered [-]. It may have already been done?
17:08:39 <Vorpal> right
17:08:45 <Vorpal> I own _[] and []_ iirc
17:08:51 <Vorpal> don't remember why
17:09:04 <[]{}\|-_`^> Taneb: 20:29 < Taneb> [-] is registered
17:09:09 <Vorpal> that too
17:09:12 <Taneb> Okay, that explains it
17:09:13 <Vorpal> don't own that one
17:19:43 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: See you soon, hi!).
17:31:06 <Gregor> “Pronunciätion” yes/no?
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17:33:50 <fizzie> []{}\|-_`^: Which side of the hall is B16?
17:34:13 <fizzie> I may have accidentally landed near it to watch this short film thing.
17:35:12 <fizzie> Well, apparently I'm watching something else altogether, but still.
17:36:43 <fizzie> Okay, no, I think this is the opposite side.
17:37:36 <FreeFull> 18:37:24 [Freenode] -NickServ(NickServ@services.)- Information on {-} (account sjansen):
17:37:51 <FreeFull> Note that nickserv treats [-] and {-} as the same nick
17:38:31 <Vorpal> well of course
17:38:39 <Vorpal> it follows the old format
17:38:57 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's not "of course", I've seen CASEMAPPING=ASCII around.
17:39:22 -!- impomatic has joined.
17:39:24 * impomatic is implementing the Mouse programming language :-) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mouse_(programming_language)
17:39:29 <fizzie> Maybe even with freenode's previous ircd.
17:39:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, well yes
17:40:13 <fizzie> Man, Rovio is really wasting my time here.
17:40:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh? Angry Birds?
17:40:28 <Vorpal> or what
17:40:33 <fizzie> There's some Angry Birds Space insta-tournament going on.
17:40:44 <Vorpal> Angry Birds tournament?
17:40:44 <FreeFull> impomatic: Reminds me a bit of IBNIZ, but more useful for general use
17:40:47 <Vorpal> how does that work?
17:40:49 <fizzie> And then they throw Angry Birds candy from the stage.
17:40:49 <Vorpal> high scores?
17:40:55 <fizzie> Scores, yes.
17:40:56 <Vorpal> ... seriously?
17:41:10 <fizzie> They throw hundreds of bags of candy.
17:41:13 <Vorpal> there is special candy?
17:41:14 * impomatic looks up IBNIZ
17:41:17 <Vorpal> what
17:41:18 <fizzie> Sure.
17:41:22 <Vorpal> what does it look like
17:41:25 <fizzie> Fazer makes it.
17:41:26 <Vorpal> and what does it taste like
17:41:27 <Vorpal> oh okay
17:41:30 <fizzie> Like birds and pigs.
17:41:31 <Vorpal> so not too terrible then?
17:41:34 <impomatic> Does anyone use Joy?
17:41:52 <fizzie> It's very sort of generic, but not bad.
17:41:57 <Vorpal> ah
17:42:18 <fizzie> Also melts if it's too warm.
17:42:24 <impomatic> There doesn't seem to be a channel for Joy here :-(
17:42:37 <Gregor> There is no joy here.
17:42:39 <Gregor> This is Freenode.
17:43:01 <Vorpal> impomatic, is that a language?
17:43:10 <fizzie> Anyway, short film compo was supposed to start at 20:30 (it's 20:43 approx now) but... Rovio.
17:43:30 <fizzie> They're a main sponsor, I guess they can do what they want.
17:43:34 <Sgeo> Name a Stargate franchise episode for me to watch
17:43:35 <Sgeo> I'm bored
17:43:39 <Vorpal> fizzie, so the thing is delayed?
17:43:57 <fizzie> Yes. But that's very typical.
17:44:02 <Vorpal> ah
17:44:06 <impomatic> Vorpal: yes, looks Forthlike http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joy_(programming_language)
17:44:16 <Vorpal> damn url with parens
17:44:22 <Vorpal> can't click them properly in this irc client
17:44:27 <Vorpal> please url encode them
17:44:30 <Vorpal> (oh well)
17:44:53 <Vorpal> hey firefox url encodes that when I copies it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joy_%28programming_language%29
17:45:23 <Vorpal> impomatic, a purely functional, but stack based language?
17:45:27 <Vorpal> how does that even work
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17:46:14 <Vorpal> impomatic, I don't get how a stack based language can be pure
17:46:24 <Vorpal> stack operations look like a side effect to me
17:53:36 <zzo38> I have once made up something in Haskell that the type indicate the stack and the stack operations can be in (->) category so it is pure; although you can also have them in (Kleisli IO) category too and so on
17:54:21 <zzo38> So yes I think it is possible in the right way
17:54:34 <zzo38> (Not specific to Haskell)
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18:04:12 <zzo38> Quit: Right
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18:36:18 -!- Taneb has joined.
18:36:49 <Taneb> Hello
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18:59:57 <oerjan> Vorpal: Underload is sort of an esoteric variant of Joy
19:00:44 <oerjan> it is easy to think of it as pure algebra of programs instead of as acting imperatively on a stack
19:00:52 <Vorpal> oerjan, hm okay
19:01:12 <oerjan> e.g. (x)(y)~ = (y)(x)
19:01:18 <Vorpal> oerjan, but then that is just two ways of looking at the same program?
19:01:25 <oerjan> of course
19:01:46 <Vorpal> then the question is, which one is more accurate, if indeed one is
19:01:54 <oerjan> but i recall ais523 saying the first underload implementation was based on algebra, not stacks
19:02:12 <Vorpal> hm okay
19:02:46 <Vorpal> then the question becomes if you can transform the program into a purely functional one I guess
19:03:00 <oerjan> it's just that when you have a single global state (the stack), it is easy to just thread it through the program, like with haskell's State monad
19:03:42 <Vorpal> really, as long as you don't do IO anything can be rewritten into a form which is pure
19:03:58 <Vorpal> well, or have global state
19:04:03 <Sgeo> Hmm, maybe I should try to get into Perl
19:04:06 <Vorpal> hm...
19:04:16 <Vorpal> well you can work around that
19:04:40 <oerjan> yeah. and even if you do IO you can treat the IO system as an algebra you are constructing terms in
19:04:50 <Vorpal> oerjan, by this logic, any C code that performs no IO is basically a transformation of a pure program
19:05:00 <Vorpal> though that statement sounds somewhat insane
19:05:13 <Sgeo> CPAN is tempting
19:05:34 <Vorpal> Sgeo, no need, there is CTAN for TeX?
19:05:42 <Vorpal> (okay, not the same, but still)
19:07:26 <oerjan> any formal semantics of a programming language is pure, being math.
19:10:34 <coppro> hmm
19:10:37 <coppro> is self-modifying haskell code bad
19:11:56 <Taneb> Is self-modifying haskell code possible?
19:12:41 <zzo38> Is there something like the tensor category where: swap . (f *** g) = g *** f seem also similar to having a commutative applicative isn't it? And is that related to what you have written about above? (x)(y)~ = (y)(x)
19:13:01 <zzo38> Taneb: I wouldn't think so but maybe there is if someone know what is the way.
19:13:02 <Vorpal> I presume it is possible in theory using unsafeSomething, probably not easy though
19:15:00 <Vorpal> could you get a pointer to the code and then unsafeCoerce it? Then given that the code isn't RO (can be arranged for with some linker options iirc, or if nothing else, a custom linker script), sure you could replace bits of machine code.
19:15:30 <Vorpal> don't know enough of the low level GHC internals to know if it is possible
19:15:43 <Sgeo> How about a loop that at the end loops by performing the code in some IORef
19:15:54 <Sgeo> Modify the contents of the IORef and you've change the actively running code.
19:18:43 <zzo38> Then perhaps you can use that to make a self-modifying code in Haskell but it would be difficult to self-modify the Haskell codes in that way. Also, it would be specific to the computer if you did that.
19:18:44 <oerjan> i suspect the problem with modifying anything not explicitly a reference type of some kind is that the haskell compiler has every right to assume it hasn't been modified, so you cannot assume the new version will be consistently perpetrated
19:18:48 <Taneb> Something in the GHC hidden modules?
19:19:00 <Taneb> Or Template Haskell
19:20:48 <oerjan> also, self modification is how laziness is implemented under the hood, in case someone didn't know that
19:21:12 <zzo38> Template Haskell is only for compile time, I do not think it can modify stuff at runtime
19:23:10 <oerjan> also the erlang method of just calling the new version tail recursively is much more sane in haskell too.
19:24:36 <oerjan> well i guess that's for self-modifying threads.
19:27:44 <Vorpal> <oerjan> i suspect the problem with modifying anything not explicitly a reference type of some kind is that the haskell compiler has every right to assume it hasn't been modified, so you cannot assume the new version will be consistently perpetrated <-- of course
19:28:25 <Vorpal> <oerjan> also, self modification is how laziness is implemented under the hood, in case someone didn't know that <-- I thought it used thunks?
19:28:35 -!- calamari has left ("Leaving").
19:28:41 <Vorpal> <oerjan> also the erlang method of just calling the new version tail recursively is much more sane in haskell too. <-- well yes, but less fun
19:28:54 <oerjan> yes, but the thunks are replaced with the final result afterwards
19:28:59 <Vorpal> with self modification in code I think of actually writing out new bytecode or machine code to the memory
19:29:07 <Vorpal> oerjan, ah
19:30:56 <oerjan> btw i think the haskell ffi does that kind of writing out in order to export haskell closures as C functions
19:31:17 <Vorpal> heh
19:31:34 <Vorpal> oerjan, can't that sort of stuff be determined at compile time?
19:31:38 <oerjan> because C has no way of creating a new function pointer referring to dynamic data
19:31:59 <oerjan> Vorpal: not if it's a runtime constructed closure...
19:32:22 <zzo38> In C you could make void* and cast to the other pointer but it won't necessarily work or do what is intended it depend on the computer you are implemented it on
19:32:24 <Vorpal> wow the haskell-platform is 422 MB according to aptitude
19:32:50 <Vorpal> well, at least that is how much disk space I will end up using by the new stuff I need to install
19:33:15 <Vorpal> yeah ghc stuff is like 95% of that
19:33:46 <oerjan> basically in C you'd usually implement a closure as something like a struct containing the closure data + a function pointer to a fixed function, but the haskell ffi specification says that an actual C function pointer must be constructed
19:34:10 <Vorpal> hm true
19:34:11 <Taneb> unsafeCoerce :: Vector Word32 -> IO ()
19:35:06 <Vorpal> oerjan, no I would use pikhq's crazy gcc specific thing :P
19:35:17 <Vorpal> which is awesome btw
19:35:36 <Vorpal> now I only want continuations in C
19:35:40 <oerjan> Vorpal: ghc is moving away from gcc to llvm anyway
19:35:44 <Vorpal> that isn't just setjmp/longjmp
19:35:50 <Vorpal> because those are so restricted
19:36:04 <Vorpal> oerjan, I thought it was moving away from it's own native generator to llvm rather?
19:36:09 <Vorpal> and had already dropped gcc
19:36:42 <oerjan> there was a post yesterday in reddit that the new ghc code generator is almost ready to be switched in, although that's for an earlier stage of the pipeline than the llvm/gcc/native decision
19:37:49 <oerjan> Vorpal: well yeah, although gcc is still available for temporary porting. also i vaguely think the ghc runtime is still ghc?
19:37:52 <oerjan> er
19:37:55 <oerjan> *is still gcc?
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19:38:20 <Vorpal> that is the unregistered one iirc?
19:38:23 <oerjan> yes
19:38:30 <Vorpal> which is pure C even?
19:38:32 <Vorpal> no?
19:38:37 <oerjan> yes
19:38:43 <Vorpal> right
19:38:49 <Vorpal> anyway, good night
19:39:16 <oerjan> good night
19:41:13 <Sgeo> Hmm
19:41:26 <Sgeo> SAFECode makes me less.... angry at C and C++
19:41:35 <oerjan> sounds unsafe
19:48:32 <zzo38> Taneb: Sure you can do that but how are you going to know what it is going to do? It might crash.
19:48:45 <Taneb> I'm just throwing ideas about
19:49:14 <Taneb> If you know how Haskell works in the deep, and deepseq the vector, it might be doable
19:51:30 -!- prx has joined.
19:51:34 <prx> Hi
19:51:43 <oerjan> `welcome prx
19:51:46 <HackEgo> prx: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
19:52:21 -!- prx has left.
19:56:36 <FireFly> that was a short visit
19:57:00 <oerjan> we shall assume he's continuing his quest at dal.net
19:59:10 <zzo38> People argue about why scorpions are good? Someone write a report about why scorpions are good and then some people argue about it. Including such things as music, statistics, meaning of words "pet" (both the noun and verb), and astrological signs.
20:00:07 <oerjan> a stinging report, no doubt
20:00:43 <zzo38> (My conclusion is that one of the meanings doesn't count becuase it is intransitive.)
20:01:41 <oerjan> never do a tango with a scorpion
20:02:02 <zzo38> Here it is (my messages are labeled "Not a pipe", which is short for "The Free Land of Not a pipe"): http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=193916
20:02:09 <zzo38> oerjan: You are probably correct.
20:02:36 <zzo38> They even argue about pictures
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20:16:14 <FreeFull> impomatic: What do you think about IBNIZ?
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20:22:02 <zzo38> Do you know the switch of "magic" and "more magic" that has only one wire but still causes the computer to crash if the switch is moved?
20:24:37 <oerjan> i have read this ancient lore, yes
20:24:55 <zzo38> Do you know how the switch works?
20:26:15 <oerjan> no. i think there have been suggestions, though.
20:26:50 <Sgeo> It bothers me that so many Tcl extensions are in C
20:26:55 <Sgeo> Wish they were in Tcl.
20:27:17 <Phantom_Hoover> All the tellings I've seen have used the explanation that the computer's ground and its case had a potential difference large enough to restart it when connected.
20:27:20 <Sgeo> C makes it seem so... impure, like the language itself doesn't quite have the facilies to extend it within itself.
20:27:42 <Sgeo> Maybe it's just an efficiency thing?
20:37:42 <FreeFull> zzo38: It has only one wire but the other terminal is connected to a grounded metal rail
20:38:39 <augur> anyone seen ski?
20:42:05 <zzo38> FreeFull: I think you are correct.
20:45:16 <zzo38> Sometimes I want to do such things as self-modifying codes and and so on but is difficult because I also want to be portable
20:45:51 <FreeFull> Just have a VM
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20:53:06 <impomatic> I'm just playing with this. http://ibniz.asiekierka.pl/ibniz.html :-)
20:55:57 <Sgeo> It was making weird sounds even with the audio checkbox disbaled
20:56:02 <Sgeo> disabed
20:56:04 <Sgeo> disabled
20:57:18 <impomatic> $G 1% N: 2 F: ( N. F. \ 0 > ^ F. 1 + F: ) F. N. < [ F. ! "" #G, N. F. /;] @ ~ Prime Factors in Mouse...
20:59:15 <FreeFull> Asiekierka is a pretty cool guy
20:59:31 <FreeFull> He comes around here
20:59:48 <FreeFull> impomatic: How fast is it?
21:01:45 <impomatic> FreeFull: I haven't implemented an interpreter yet. There are a online in Pascal, C and Z80 asm.
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21:45:13 <zzo38> If you have a .NSF playing library, I would suggest to implement the functions: play(byte accumulator) and poke(int address, byte value)
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22:05:43 <Taneb> Hello!
22:05:52 <Sgeo> Hi
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22:21:06 <kmc> butts
22:26:27 <oerjan> iffs
22:27:45 <zzo38> something else
22:34:16 <kmc> cheap beer in 2L plastic bottles
22:34:18 <kmc> what a country
22:36:21 <shachaf> kmc: Looks like the next Stripe CTF thing might be on Aug 22.
22:36:39 <fizzie> Someone told an anecdote about being in Germany, asking for a "big beer" expecting 0.5l (the standard "big" in Finland) but getting a full litre.
22:36:52 <kmc> shachaf: cool
22:36:55 <kmc> coolchaf
22:37:30 <shachaf> koolgan mcoollister
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22:53:54 <kmc> i will be back in the USSA at that time
22:53:56 <kmc> barely
22:54:09 <Taneb> United Soviet Socialist America?
22:54:19 <shachaf> СССА
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23:57:30 <zzo38> What is "cookness-diamond.volia.net"? I remember they connected to my computer once before, and I don't know what it is.
23:57:56 <zzo38> (The only thing I could find was an FTP service which did not allow anonymous login.)
23:59:32 <oklopol> so did someone finish clop?
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00:21:25 <augur> oklopol! :D
00:22:16 <Phantom_Hoover> I watched a video of the ending!
00:22:24 <Phantom_Hoover> The virgin turns out to be the guy from the start.
00:35:08 * Sgeo is watching Red vs. Blue
00:35:44 <ion> sgeo: Both Chimays are awesome.
00:37:27 <Sgeo> Uh
00:37:31 <Sgeo> I'm still in season 1
00:49:09 <zzo38> Does LCD monitor sometimes wrong phase even though it was correct yesterday?
00:54:57 <ion> Switch to a digital video interface.
00:54:59 <oklopol> it seems too hard for me to solve manually in reasonable time, at least if i insist on "realistic" running, so i wanted to make a bot for it, but apparently there's no easy way to send keydowns and keyups to the active window so ble.
00:56:05 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, what?
00:56:21 <oklopol> when it's me vs IO/API stuff, "not easy" means it's not "import keystuff; keystuff.sendkeydown(key)".
00:56:28 <oklopol> what what?
00:56:55 <Phantom_Hoover> You seemed to say that without context.
00:57:10 <oklopol> oh sorry context was clop
00:57:22 <Phantom_Hoover> ah
00:57:35 <oklopol> see i went to the shoppe between my messages, so no time passed.
00:57:49 <Phantom_Hoover> How would you do it with a bot, make it mash hjk over and over?
00:58:03 <Phantom_Hoover> (Leaving out l makes your back leg act as a stabiliser.)
00:58:26 <oklopol> i'm not sure what i'll do yet, but i certainly won't do anything myself, i will automatize everything and just let it play.
00:59:22 <oklopol> i have ideas but the most sensible solutions would require me to parse the at least the rotation, velocity and rotational velocity of the horse, which sounds tedious.
00:59:57 <oklopol> so i'll probably just have it hill climb the last five seconds of best solutions known sofar and measure the speed at which the horse is moving.
01:00:16 <oklopol> to get a utility function
01:01:01 <Phantom_Hoover> You could decompile the Flash, lay it out on a slab and stick electrodes into it, but that's... very tedious.
01:01:32 <oklopol> looking at the actual data moving around inside the flash thing gets way too IO for me.
01:01:42 <oklopol> i just parse everything from the window atm
01:03:07 <oklopol> where everything = where the horse currently is on the level
01:07:21 <oklopol> luckily there's a little horsie at the bottom of the window, although it's still pretty annoying to do due to the tree.
01:09:57 <zzo38> What is the picture on the list of ideas for?
01:13:57 <oerjan> zzo38: Tektur's edit has the summary "picture of a bit esoteric lamp symbolizing ideas"
01:14:14 <zzo38> OK.
01:14:23 <zzo38> Does any TV set have 16:15 aspect ratio mode?
01:19:40 <zzo38> ion: Digital video interface, well, that doesn't answer my question though.
01:22:02 <zzo38> By discussion with some people I have come up with another kind of digital video interface consisting of eleven pairs and all data in one direction only. It also uses nine bits per channel (27 bits per pixel) due to just how it turns out. The pairs are labeled: RED0, RED1, RED2, GREEN0, GREEN1, GREEN2, BLUE0, BLUE1, BLUE2, CLOCK, SYNC.
01:22:29 <zzo38> The resolution is known by the number of CLOCK signals between two SYNC signals; there are three clocks per pixel and one sync per frame.
01:24:17 <zzo38> (Maybe add a twelvth pair labeled AUDIO which has a mono audio signal. Now it can use 24 pins of DB-25.)
01:57:20 <shachaf> kmc: This person is working on a program called "kmc".
02:01:23 <oerjan> k modular compiler
02:13:54 <quintopia> kickass monkey crawler
02:19:59 <zzo38> What person?
02:38:52 <zzo38> Is it OK? for(x=0;x<16;x+=2) { y=tiles[addr].data[x]; tiles[addr].data[x]=tiles[addr].data[x^7]; tiles[addr].data[x^7]=y; }
02:39:18 <quintopia> looks right
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03:55:17 <zzo38> What is algorithm for rotating a 8x8 icon of one bit per pixel?
04:09:47 <quintopia> by 90 degrees?
04:10:49 <quintopia> i wrote code that did that with colored bitmaps stored as 1-dim arrays
04:13:04 <quintopia> it was in java (because processing) but you can translate:
04:13:37 <quintopia> public void rotate(PImage in, int times) { int l=in.pixels.length; in.loadPixels(); int h=in.height; int w=in.width; for (int j=0;j<times;j++) { color[] newbuff = new color[l]; for (int i=0;i<l;i++) { newbuff[i]=in.pixels[i%w*h+h-1-i/w]; } in.pixels = newbuff; h=w^h; w=w^h; h=w^h; } in.width=w; in.height=h; in.updatePixels(); }
04:14:02 <quintopia> in.pixels is the original image array, and newbuff is the new image's array
04:14:44 <quintopia> times is an integer that tells it to rotate 90*times degrees
04:14:56 <quintopia> newbuff[i]=in.pixels[i%w*h+h-1-i/w]; is the real work
04:24:53 <zzo38> But in this case it is one bit per pixel, so the array is length 8 (actually 16 because there is two planes, but we can ignore that).
04:35:00 <soundnfury> hmm. How would you rotate an image through 90 degrees in-place? Supposing that all you can do is pixel swaps.
04:35:09 <soundnfury> I'll allow you to assume a fixed size of 8x8 if that helps
04:35:36 * soundnfury thinks he has the answer, but it might not be optimal
04:37:20 <FreeFull> Do you want to rotate it by 90 degrees in a certain direction or by 180 degrees?
04:37:51 <soundnfury> 90 in a certain direction
04:37:58 <soundnfury> 180 is too trivial ;)
04:38:16 <FreeFull> It's actually pretty easy to do
04:38:42 <soundnfury> Fairly easy, yes
04:38:50 <FreeFull> Let's say char x[8]; is the input picture
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04:38:57 <FreeFull> and char y[8]; is the output
04:39:08 <soundnfury> you using a bitmask of 1-bit pixels there?
04:39:34 <soundnfury> there may be an efficient trick you can pull in that case, Iunno
04:39:47 <soundnfury> no, no separate output. *in-place*
04:40:48 <quintopia> soundnfury: do the same routine i did above, but with three xors instead of the assignment
04:41:01 <FreeFull> Well, if you do it in place, you end up overwriting the data you want to read
04:41:32 <quintopia> (same as i did for switching the height and width)
04:42:10 <soundnfury> yeah but supposing you have a single "swap pixel (x1,y1) with pixel (x2,y2)" operation
04:42:32 <soundnfury> what pattern of such operations do you use to do the rotate in the fewest ops?
04:42:33 <quintopia> oh right
04:42:47 <FreeFull> Hmm, maybe you could do 90° rotation with two flips
04:42:57 <FreeFull> I thought about it ages ago but I forgot
04:43:02 <quintopia> yeah i think freefull is right
04:43:16 <quintopia> it's like that one nametag swapping puzzle
04:43:21 <FreeFull> You can do any rotation using two flips
04:43:24 <quintopia> should be able to do it in two passes
04:43:28 <soundnfury> FreeFull: you could, but that's inefficient
04:43:33 <FreeFull> But I forget what the flips would be for 90°
04:43:42 <FreeFull> soundnfury: Sure, but it's a starting point
04:43:44 <soundnfury> there's a better way
04:43:55 <soundnfury> don't try to do it with linear algebra, you don't have to
04:44:07 <soundnfury> think in terms of group theory / permutations
04:44:15 <soundnfury> / actions
04:44:24 <quintopia> soundnfury: there's a better way than the two passes of swaps?
04:44:39 <soundnfury> yup
04:44:51 <quintopia> well, there's the one-pass version i guess
04:45:09 <quintopia> just swap them all into the first cell and then back out to where that next one goes
04:45:20 <soundnfury> a quarter of the pixels only get touched once with my method
04:45:40 <FreeFull> What do you mean only a quarter of the pixels?
04:45:59 <soundnfury> well, two flips takes w*h swaps, right?
04:46:03 <FreeFull> If you have a checkerboard image you have to touch all the pixels to rotate it 90°
04:46:18 <soundnfury> quintopia's method takes w*h-1 swaps
04:46:32 <soundnfury> my method takes ¾w*h swaps
04:46:33 <FreeFull> Once you have two flips
04:47:05 <soundnfury> FreeFull: read again. not "only a quarter get touched once", but "a quarter only get touched one".
04:47:09 <soundnfury> the rest get touched twice
04:47:22 <soundnfury> in the two flips method, they all get touched twice
04:47:28 <FreeFull> soundnfury: Shouldn't ½w*h be possible
04:47:29 <quintopia> i dunno
04:47:35 <quintopia> i think freefull is right
04:47:41 <quintopia> i think my original idea does it like that
04:47:47 <FreeFull> quintopia: It doesn't
04:47:56 <quintopia> i didn't explain it
04:48:04 <quintopia> i rejected it too fast
04:48:24 <soundnfury> FreeFull: I don't think ½w*h is possible
04:48:50 <soundnfury> I should make clear that you have to find a general method that works for any image
04:48:54 <quintopia> right
04:48:55 <zzo38> Actually char x[8] is like what we have not the swap pixel operation.
04:48:57 <quintopia> rectangular
04:49:02 <FreeFull> I have a ½w*h+1 method
04:49:09 <soundnfury> quintopia: no, square
04:49:11 <zzo38> I already have mirror, flip, draw rectangle, and format conversion.
04:49:16 <soundnfury> I mean, with a totally black image you need no swaps
04:49:26 <quintopia> soundnfury: then why say w*h
04:49:31 <soundnfury> zzo38: This isn't a practical problem to do with what you're doing, it's just a puzzle
04:49:40 <zzo38> soundnfury: OK
04:49:42 <quintopia> ½L
04:49:42 <soundnfury> quintopia: just because
04:49:48 <FreeFull> You can swap pixels in a circular pattern
04:49:54 <FreeFull> Or rather square pattern
04:49:56 <soundnfury> FreeFull: yes...
04:49:58 <FreeFull> But if you just go clockwise
04:50:02 <soundnfury> you're getting there...
04:50:22 <FreeFull> I need to think of the code though
04:50:40 <quintopia> yeah the spiraling thing does ¾
04:50:53 <zzo38> Is there any better way than swap pixels?
04:50:57 <soundnfury> quintopia: yup. Can you see a way to beat it?
04:51:17 <quintopia> yeah i think
04:51:37 <quintopia> three swaps for every rectangle of pixels
04:51:56 <quintopia> tl with tr, tr with ll, lr with ll
04:52:10 <quintopia> wait
04:52:14 <zzo38> I do happen to have lookup tables "reverse" and "unmingle" but could add a few more if it help a lot
04:52:15 <quintopia> that last one's off :P
04:52:24 <quintopia> tl with tr, tr with ll, tr with lr
04:52:27 <FreeFull> Let's say we have a 2x2 image
04:52:32 <FreeFull> 1001
04:52:40 <quintopia> tl=top left, lr = lower right etc.
04:52:52 <soundnfury> quintopia: just think permutations: (1 2 3 4) = (1 2) (2 3) (3 4)
04:53:53 <quintopia> soundnfury: i said (1 2) (2 4) (2 3). that way no *value* moves more than twice
04:53:54 <FreeFull> I just thought of something that probably isn't very useful
04:54:39 <FreeFull> If you treat the outer rim of the image as a binary number of 28 bits, by rotating it right by 8 you literally rotate it right
04:54:40 <soundnfury> quintopia: do you mean (1 3)(1 2)(3 4)?
04:54:55 <soundnfury> FreeFull: that's quite neat, yes
04:54:59 <FreeFull> But that would be inconvienient to code
04:55:16 <quintopia> FreeFull: also converting the bit array to that number would end up slower than this
04:55:20 <soundnfury> but I don't know how useful it is, unless you actually store your image in taxicab polar co-ordinates
04:55:21 <zzo38> Yes that is true but useless since the picture is not stored in that format.
04:55:44 <soundnfury> which would also be inconvenient as you now have a triangular array to store
04:56:29 <FreeFull> anyway, to rotate a 2x2 image, the way I'm thinking of would have four swaps
04:56:41 <FreeFull> But that's w*h and not the best according to what yous ay
04:56:46 <quintopia> i had an idea to execute soundnfury's method faster
04:57:01 <quintopia> without assuming a swap routine
04:57:57 <quintopia> hmm
04:58:03 <quintopia> but it requires square image
04:58:09 <FreeFull> That's fine
04:58:28 <soundnfury> yeah, no problem. You can't really in-place rotate a non-square image :p
04:58:35 <soundnfury> so what's your idea?
04:58:43 <quintopia> zzo38: your best bet is the loop i said above. it rotates any image (including rectangular) in time linear in the length of the image.
04:58:57 <quintopia> soundnfury: yes you could.
04:58:59 <FreeFull> That's w*h
04:59:26 <quintopia> my method above, with the assignment replaced by three xors would rotate even non-square images in place.
05:00:02 <soundnfury> oh, you mean if you reinterpret the array dimensions?
05:00:25 <FreeFull> Ultimately, you always need to move w*h pixels to a different position
05:00:26 <quintopia> just swapping them is sufficient for a 90 degree rotation
05:01:01 <quintopia> well, i have proven you can rotate any image 90 degrees with 3*l*w bitwise operations. that's something eh
05:01:12 <quintopia> go beat it.
05:01:13 <zzo38> Do you know how it is 1 bit per pixel monochrome?
05:01:36 <quintopia> zzo38: my method doesn't care about your encoding of a pixel.
05:01:50 <zzo38> I am thinking of some other stuff too now
05:01:52 <soundnfury> zzo38: your 1bpp images I still think there should be an efficient trick with bitwise stuff
05:01:53 <quintopia> if you can fetch a bit and move it
05:02:28 <zzo38> quintopia: Sure you can fetch a bit and move it but that doesn't seem efficient, since they are packed in one byte
05:02:35 <FreeFull> You could probably rotate a byte at a time
05:02:51 <zzo38> FreeFull: Yes that is one of my thoughts too.
05:03:08 <quintopia> FreeFull: it is difficult to rotate a byte at a time, since the bits will all end up separated in memory after the rotation
05:03:29 <FreeFull> quintopia: What do you mean?
05:03:55 <quintopia> assume row major ordering on a picture 10 pixels wide.
05:04:10 <quintopia> bits that start next to each other in memory will end up separated by 10 bits
05:04:11 <FreeFull> Yes, row major ordering is the common one
05:04:38 <FreeFull> We are working with a picture 8 pixels wide though
05:04:41 <FreeFull> 8x8
05:04:44 <quintopia> fine
05:04:44 <soundnfury> something like y[0]=((x[0]&0x80)>>7)|((x[1]&0x80)>>6)|((x[2]&0x80)>>5)|...|(x[7]&0x80)
05:04:48 <quintopia> they end up a byte separated
05:05:29 <FreeFull> soundnfury: You said in place
05:05:31 <soundnfury> Or you could use bitfields (in C) and a massive block of assignments, and rely on vectorising compilers
05:05:32 <quintopia> soundnfury: that is essentially the method i give above, rewritten to handle a byte at a time