←2012-08 2012-09 2012-10→ ↑2012 ↑all
00:00:10 <Arc_Koen> what has the biggest number to do with that, though?
00:00:23 <oerjan> the biggest number is needed for $'s
00:00:30 <Arc_Koen> oh, right
00:01:32 <Arc_Koen> well, we can try with (m+1)n
00:03:41 <oerjan> actually hm
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00:06:39 <oerjan> (m-1) is enough for the $'s
00:07:04 <oerjan> (m-1)*n_$ + 2*n_: + n_rest
00:07:36 <Arc_Koen> uh
00:07:47 <Arc_Koen> I'm pretty sure that's wrong
00:08:00 <Arc_Koen> simpel counter example:
00:08:08 <oerjan> oh hm
00:08:42 <Arc_Koen> hum
00:09:09 * Arc_Koen begins to understand why Ftack is so useless
00:09:16 <oerjan> heh
00:09:55 <oerjan> it probably should be max(m-1, 1)
00:10:37 <Arc_Koen> ahah
00:12:02 <Arc_Koen> ok I have an idea
00:12:20 <Arc_Koen> let me just check that it is really a counterexample
00:12:46 <Arc_Koen> ok it's most definitely not
00:12:48 <Arc_Koen> but it's fun
00:12:57 <Arc_Koen> ~H~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
00:13:05 <oerjan> heh
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00:14:17 <Arc_Koen> we have to define "(m-1)*n_$" to be 0 if there are no numbers though, I think
00:14:33 <oerjan> hm...
00:14:49 <oerjan> i guess if there are no numbers you are catting the moment you hit a $, so yeah
00:14:58 <Arc_Koen> otherwise we could include a $ as the last element
00:15:36 <Arc_Koen> +1 symbol, +1 step, -1 in the bound
00:16:45 <Arc_Koen> hmm
00:16:54 <Arc_Koen> (I'm not sure)
00:17:22 <oerjan> actually you can also have $0whatever
00:17:55 <Arc_Koen> yes but that's +3 symbols, +1 step
00:18:01 <Arc_Koen> oh
00:18:07 <Arc_Koen> yeah, ok
00:18:35 <oerjan> so max(m-1, 0) with 0 even if m doesn't exist
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00:19:49 <oerjan> argh
00:19:59 <oerjan> well this is close to correct anyway, i think
00:20:08 <Arc_Koen> hmm?
00:20:36 <oerjan> oh $0$
00:20:45 <Arc_Koen> haha
00:20:51 <Arc_Koen> it works though
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00:21:11 <Arc_Koen> bound is 1, step is 1
00:21:14 <oerjan> yes, but we need the max
00:21:59 <oerjan> $1$
00:22:27 <oerjan> i guess it works
00:22:49 <Arc_Koen> note that only :~!( can be applied to themselves
00:22:58 <oerjan> yes i already did
00:23:19 <oerjan> and of those, : and ( give end states
00:23:20 <Arc_Koen> I'm feeling so helpful right now
00:23:28 <Arc_Koen> yup
00:23:34 <oerjan> while ~ and ! keep shrinking
00:24:08 <Arc_Koen> ~ +1 step +1 symbol +1 to the bound
00:25:37 <Arc_Koen> !x + 1 step either + 2 or +m to the bound
00:26:13 <Arc_Koen> err, with a minimum of +1
00:26:19 <Arc_Koen> ok, both are useless
00:30:55 <Arc_Koen> btw, ./fueuec thuemorse still ends up on a segfault, even with catching empty queues
00:32:00 <Arc_Koen> (and being a while loop)
00:32:00 <oerjan> and the suggestion to not use recursion?
00:32:45 <Arc_Koen> oh, wait
00:33:37 <oerjan> fizzie seemed to have debugger proof that it overflowed the stack
00:34:19 <Arc_Koen> yes
00:34:26 <Arc_Koen> I guess I should learn to use debuggers
00:34:47 <oerjan> hey me too!
00:34:49 <Arc_Koen> or maybe use an actual ide
00:35:12 <Arc_Koen> TextEdit does have limitations
00:35:21 * oerjan is a vim guy
00:35:43 <Arc_Koen> well, at least vim is related to programming
00:36:03 <oerjan> but i don't even have any of the advanced vim setup some people do
00:39:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Arc_Koen, you can use TextEdit?
00:39:34 <Arc_Koen> yes
00:39:39 <Arc_Koen> why could I not?
00:39:43 * Arc_Koen is a mac user
00:39:44 <Phantom_Hoover> ISTR it only writing RTFs, but I was young and stupid back then.
00:40:39 <Arc_Koen> well, it's a text editor
00:40:45 <Arc_Koen> like windows's blocnote
00:41:04 <Arc_Koen> maybe sliiiightly more advanced as it can do some basic text formatting
00:41:16 <Arc_Koen> but I'm definitely not using that
00:41:46 <Arc_Koen> fun fact: it has an auto-spell check
00:41:59 <Arc_Koen> if you don't disable it, it will correct what you're typing without asking
00:42:12 <Arc_Koen> I wasn't aware of that, it messed with a lot of ocaml programs
00:42:47 <Arc_Koen> like 'rec' which was systematically turned into 'ref', or the opposite
00:45:15 <Arc_Koen> urrh
00:45:23 <Arc_Koen> segfaulted on the alphabet
00:45:31 <Arc_Koen> ok, this is a bug that should be corrected easily
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00:49:45 <subleq> hello
00:50:32 <Arc_Koen> haha
00:50:57 <itidus21> `welcome subleq
00:50:58 <Arc_Koen> empty program + ^D successfully prints an infinite amount of ?
00:51:01 <HackEgo> subleq: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
00:51:02 <Arc_Koen> hello subleq
00:51:17 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to ChuckPonzi.
00:51:30 <itidus21> For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net, just incase
00:51:43 <zzo38> Or try Wikipedia.
00:52:08 <monqy> as if someone named subleq
00:52:26 <zzo38> Just in csae.
00:52:27 <itidus21> monqy: i was being ironic
00:52:54 <itidus21> ^just in case
00:54:20 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: funny bug... ./fueuec '--65' works as it should, but ./fueuec --print '--65' reveals it doesn't -- 65 65 0 A 0 (waits for input)
00:56:52 <oerjan> wut
00:56:59 <Arc_Koen> fancy, uh?
00:57:39 <Arc_Koen> so there's one (or more) function I've messed with which somehow prevents stuff to be sent back to queue
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00:58:42 <Arc_Koen> and that makes both ) and - destroy the next element
01:01:59 <Arc_Koen> ok, now - and + interpret anything that's not a number as if it were a 0
01:05:42 <subleq> ah, i see all the old folks are here
01:05:43 <subleq> hi oerjan
01:06:06 <oerjan> hi subleq
01:07:09 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: something wrong with the use of matchwhat?
01:07:40 <oerjan> if you assume that is true you might get such an effect.
01:07:42 <Arc_Koen> I guess
01:07:55 <Arc_Koen> oh, of course
01:08:14 <Arc_Koen> things would have gotten serious if I had used an union
01:08:40 <Arc_Koen> s/serious/fancy
01:08:56 <subleq> hi oklopol
01:09:30 <Arc_Koen> urrrrh
01:09:32 <Arc_Koen> haha
01:09:41 <Arc_Koen> I used !*s as meaning "s is not empty"
01:09:56 <oerjan> OKAY
01:10:37 <Arc_Koen> see, s != "" worked just fine
01:10:38 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: i suppose s[0] != '\0' is more readable, and probably compiles down to the same thing.
01:10:39 <Arc_Koen> :p
01:10:43 <oerjan> heh
01:11:03 <oerjan> oh so matchwhat _always_ returned true? :P
01:11:30 <Arc_Koen> yep
01:11:36 <oerjan> well i guess unless the queue is empty
01:11:47 <Arc_Koen> no no, always
01:12:29 <Arc_Koen> matchwhat is structured as "if (neither string nor queue are empty) {...} else if (string not empty) { false} else true"
01:12:55 <oerjan> i have a hunch that the entirety of matchwhat could be rewritten as a single expression
01:13:00 <Arc_Koen> so, thinking all strings were empty, he always returned true
01:13:05 <Arc_Koen> yes
01:13:12 <Arc_Koen> in ocaml I wrote it another way
01:13:52 <Arc_Koen> and could have wrote it many different other ways but heh one is enough
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01:16:41 <Arc_Koen> +HH still transforms into 0 though
01:16:51 <oerjan> eek
01:16:59 <oerjan> paste the code?
01:18:09 <Arc_Koen> http://sprunge.us/XfgY
01:18:21 <Arc_Koen> http://sprunge.us/XfgY?c actually
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01:26:19 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: adding printf("matchwhat: %s\n", (itsok?"TRUE":"FALSE")); in matchwhat shows matchwhat isn't even called
01:26:32 <oerjan> huh
01:27:28 <Arc_Koen> so it's like I made a fancy error with !*s which wasn't given an occasion to mess around
01:27:30 <zzo38> If you make (s != "") in C it makes if the address does not match the address of "" so it is different.
01:28:09 <Arc_Koen> haha
01:29:29 <zzo38> But !*s means if s points to a value zero so for string meaning, empty string.
01:29:38 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: does it get to if (op == '+')
01:29:44 <oerjan> ?
01:30:08 <Arc_Koen> I'll add a printf but I guess it does, since + 3 4 gives 7
01:30:50 <Arc_Koen> ok, uh, I agree this doesn't make any sense
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01:31:37 <shachaf> kmc: FSVO "nicer"
01:31:41 <Arc_Koen> ARRRH STUPID ME
01:32:01 <shachaf> I value hours not spent on a plane much more than hours spent on a plane being able to watch movies.
01:32:02 <Arc_Koen> was using a different name for exec file when compiling and executing
01:32:15 <oerjan> ooooo
01:33:04 <Arc_Koen> so basically I was using the last version which used that name, which probably was right after switching to !*s
01:33:31 <shachaf> With that said, Virgin America's was probably the nicest domestic flight I've been on.
01:35:28 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: fancy
01:35:55 <Arc_Koen> ok, it works with the wiki page's sample programs
01:36:08 <oerjan> yay
01:37:27 <Arc_Koen> if you have any other remarks on the code... :-)
01:38:20 <oerjan> not haskelly enough ;P
01:38:37 <Arc_Koen> haha
01:39:06 <Arc_Koen> so hum, you have proven fueue was turing-complete?
01:39:15 <oerjan> essentially.
01:39:48 <itidus21> oerjan has even proven that norway is turing complete
01:39:59 <oerjan> erm
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01:41:20 <Arc_Koen> okay so up to now I was think those 46 46 46 111 117 116 32 111 102 32 115 116 97 99 107 33 10 things were supposed to be used by underload
01:41:31 <oerjan> :P
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01:41:42 <oerjan> ^ul !
01:41:43 <fungot> ...out of stack!
01:41:51 <Arc_Koen> yeah, I just had the idea to
01:41:52 <Arc_Koen> wait
01:41:52 <oerjan> i just copied it from fungot's underload
01:41:52 <fungot> oerjan: i already have
01:42:00 <Arc_Koen> ok, ok
01:42:50 <Arc_Koen> for a second I thought "^ul !" meant "find the last ascii-looking sequence of numbers written on this channel and translate it"
01:42:59 <oerjan> XD
01:43:36 <oerjan> i then had to add the initial [] when i realized that the translation of : would gobble up the first 46 before it could get printed.
01:44:02 <oerjan> since things happen slightly in parallel, more or less
01:45:24 <Arc_Koen> what if they are two : in the underload program?
01:45:36 <Arc_Koen> won't the first eat [] and the second 46?
01:46:10 <kmc> shachaf: well, HEL-JFK and JFK-SFO are of comparable length
01:46:29 <oerjan> two consecutive underload functions aren't translated to two consecutive fueue subprograms. you need to use the AB translation to concatenate underload programs.
01:46:54 <kmc> i'm not sure about the subjective difference between 6h and 8h flights
01:46:59 <kmc> they both just register as "a long time"
01:47:04 <oerjan> so only one of the :'s will be running at a time.
01:47:18 <kmc> shachaf: did you see http://www.ethanzuckerman.com/blog/2012/08/30/long-flights-a-somewhat-serious-business-idea/
01:47:54 <oerjan> the ! translation also would gobble up the [], in a very literal fashion since it happens precisely at the spot where i use a fueue ! to remove the popped element
01:48:12 <Arc_Koen> oh, ok
01:48:18 <shachaf> kmc: Hmm, I suppose that's true.
01:48:41 * shachaf is used to 10-12-hour international flights and 4-5 hours domestic flights.
01:48:51 <shachaf> Nope.
01:48:57 <Arc_Koen> well, I'm not sure that's explicit on the wiki page, but I don't speak underload so i trust you
01:49:26 <oerjan> i didn't explain it much i guess :P
01:50:03 <shachaf> kmc: I find myself unable to concentrate on anything in flights.
01:50:06 <oerjan> i suppose i should add something about A and B representing nested underload programs
01:50:36 <kmc> shachaf: why?
01:51:57 <shachaf> I don't know. I wish it wasn't the case.
01:52:12 <shachaf> I'm also rarely able to sleep.
01:53:28 <Arc_Koen> nested?
01:53:34 <shachaf> "Conversation will be discouraged by a loud white noise machine that permeates the space, encouraging you to put on headphones and listen to whatever music you’ve brought with you."
01:53:43 <shachaf> I can also usually not get anything done while listening to music.
01:53:53 <kmc> yeah, that's one of the dumber parts of this proposal
01:54:00 <kmc> one of the commenters suggests that you rely on social norms to shut people up
01:54:07 <kmc> like the library
01:54:42 <shachaf> Oh, and one of the most important of long flights is the loud baby in the row behind you.
01:54:54 * shachaf accidentally a lot of words these days.
01:56:40 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: i mean, to translate the underload program (:^):^ say, you translate A = (:^) B = :^ recursively and use the AB rule to combine them.
01:57:09 <oerjan> or you can split it as A = (:^): B = ^ , doesn't matter much
01:57:39 <Arc_Koen> what if you split it as A = (:^):^ B = empty ?
01:58:16 <Arc_Koen> oh, wait, you must continue splitting until you have only one-symbol programs?
01:58:24 <oerjan> Yep.
01:58:31 <Arc_Koen> ok :)
01:58:46 <oerjan> but you made me realize i actually forgot to represent the empty program in my translation
01:59:06 <oerjan> which is important, since you can have use for () which uses it recursively
01:59:28 <kmc> shachaf: what about music without words
02:00:09 <shachaf> Sometimes it's OK... Sometimes it still doesn't work.
02:00:40 <shachaf> I should probably figure it out and collect some non-disruptive music.
02:04:52 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: expanded the wiki table
02:06:36 * oerjan OCD's on periods
02:07:44 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: oh and btw the subprograms must have matching parentheses, as always in underload, which is why the (A) rule is separate.
02:08:38 <Arc_Koen> okay, but ( and ) are underload commands that are quite unrelated, are they?
02:08:53 <Arc_Koen> I mean, the correct parenthesing is only an arbitrary rule, right?
02:09:10 <oerjan> no, they always match. (A) is more or less similar to fueue (A
02:09:20 <oerjan> or wait hm
02:09:25 <oerjan> fueue [A]
02:10:53 <oerjan> except that fueue [A] does nothing, while underload [A] moves itself from the running program to the stack
02:11:00 <oerjan> er
02:11:04 <oerjan> *underload (A)
02:11:56 <Arc_Koen> did I mention it was 4am?
02:12:05 <oerjan> ...not that i recall.
02:12:40 <Arc_Koen> well, it is, so i'll take off
02:12:45 <oerjan> good night then
02:12:53 <Arc_Koen> thank you
02:14:22 <Arc_Koen> zzo38: I think I corrected all bugs and memory leaks from fueue.c so i'd be thankful if you could replace it http://sprunge.us/iEAW
02:14:32 <Arc_Koen> bye
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02:32:47 <zzo38> Review what I have written more of RogueVM; I have written a lot more by now.
02:43:28 <shachaf> kmc: "ANSI Windows code pages, and especially the code page 1252, were called that way since they were purportedly based on drafts submitted or intended for ANSI. However, ANSI and ISO have not standardized any of these code pages."
02:44:58 <pikhq_> 1252 at least is *compatible with* the ISO charset it gets confused with.
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02:47:58 <kmc> of course
03:02:42 <kmc> i'm using gitit
03:02:49 <kmc> i like that i can export any dumb page on my wiki as LaTeX or man page
03:06:53 <kmc> or a S5 slideshow
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04:57:23 <zzo38> OK, I wrote a lot more of RogueVM now: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/roguevm/roguevm.tex http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/roguevm/roguevm.dvi Now I have many more instructions, more about the display, a complex numeric print mode, and various other things added or modified in case they were wrong or missing before.
05:05:08 <shachaf> Is there a simple way to make CTR mode suitable for disk encryption?
05:06:04 <kmc> shachaf: I am going to sleep, but remind me about that question tomorrow.
05:06:20 <kmc> @ask kmc Is there a simple way to make CTR mode suitable for disk encryption?
05:06:21 <lambdabot> You can tell yourself!
05:06:23 <shachaf> @tell kmc <kmc> shachaf: I am going to sleep, but remind me about that question tomorrow.
05:06:23 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
05:06:30 <kmc> thachaf
05:06:30 <lambdabot> kmc: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
05:06:36 <kmc> bah
05:06:39 * kmc ->
05:06:40 <shachaf> "whoopse" -- kmc
05:06:50 <shachaf> kmc: Back to normal-people sleep schedule, are you?
05:07:00 <shachaf> @tell kmc 22:06 <kmc> @ask kmc Is there a simple way to make CTR mode suitable for disk encryption?
05:07:01 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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07:16:22 <shachaf> @tell kmc Also, can you easily turn a stream cipher into a block cipher? (Also, some other things.)
07:16:22 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
07:16:52 * shachaf will save conversation for tomorrow.
07:27:59 <impomatic> Has anyone used Joy? What do you think of it?
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09:25:15 <atriq> @messages?
09:25:15 <lambdabot> Sorry, no messages today.
09:25:26 <shachaf> > hi "atriq"
09:25:28 <lambdabot> hi atriq
09:25:32 <atriq> @src hi
09:25:32 <lambdabot> Source not found. Maybe if you used more than just two fingers...
09:26:19 <fizzie> @tell Arc_Koen Remarks: You have another memory leak: consider ![...] or $n[...] -- in both, you throw away the block Token with deletetop(), but it doesn't free the Queue data in it; yet the only pointer to that data is lost. See http://sprunge.us/WiHK
09:26:19 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
09:28:03 <fizzie> "Two Fingers" is a brand of tequila. I don't know where the name comes from.
09:29:10 <atriq> I ought to upload my Fueue interpreter somewhere
09:31:23 <atriq> Is there a way I can pipe something directly to the clipboard?
09:31:40 <atriq> foo > /dev/clipboard or something like that
09:31:58 <shachaf> > hi "atriq"
09:32:00 <lambdabot> hatriq
09:32:01 <shachaf> > hi "elliott"
09:32:03 <lambdabot> helliott
09:32:04 <shachaf> > hi "oerjan"
09:32:06 <lambdabot> hoerjan
09:32:07 <shachaf> > hi "kmc"
09:32:08 <lambdabot> h
09:32:10 <shachaf> Whoops.
09:32:11 <atriq> Oh no!
09:32:14 <shachaf> > hi "keegan"
09:32:16 <lambdabot> heegan
09:32:16 <fizzie> atriq: Depends on which clipboard you're talking about. For the X clipboards, there are several command-line tools.
09:32:30 <fizzie> 'xclip' is one, if you happen to have it installed.
09:32:59 <fizzie> It uses the primary selection by default, and the CLIPBOARD selection if you ask it to.
09:33:38 <fizzie> "foo | xclip" will let the middle-mouse-paste paste the output of foo, for example.
09:33:49 * shachaf uses xsel
09:33:57 <shachaf> ...Because it usually seems to be installed.
09:34:08 <fizzie> It's not, here.
09:34:12 <fizzie> Though neither is xclip.
09:34:47 <fizzie> It looks very similar, except with slightly more bells on it.
09:41:47 <fizzie> @tell Arc_Koen Remarks: I'm still a bit confused by is_empty not taking a Queue*; the "const Queue q" parameter declaration is especially confusing, since the 'const' can't really do anything too meaningful; it's passed a new Queue by value, so from the viewpoint of the caller, it couldn't modify it anyway.
09:41:47 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
09:42:30 <fizzie> @tell Arc_Koen Remarks: In main, printf("Too many arguments.\n", argc); should either lose the "argc", or add a corresponding "%d" in the format. (The '-Wall' gcc flag would've noticed this.)
09:42:30 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
09:43:07 <atriq> Aaargh
09:43:20 <atriq> Why is getting syntax highlighting for Haskell on Tumblr so hard
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09:47:56 <fizzie> atriq: Perhaps you should start a more Haskell-friendly competitor, called Humblr?
09:53:46 <itidus21> I don't think anyone questions that some of us have or haven't done that.
10:17:37 <itidus21> there is no integer between 1 and 2!
10:22:05 <AnotherTest> std::vector<int> { 1, 3, 2}
10:22:14 <AnotherTest> itidus21: now there is
10:22:29 <itidus21> gasp
10:22:29 <AnotherTest> * insert = between > and {
10:23:02 <AnotherTest> (and a name of choice of course)
10:23:53 <fizzie> AnotherTest: Can you do that nowadays? I remember a common complaint about std::vector and such that you can't use the {a,b,c} initializers with them.
10:24:16 <AnotherTest> fizzie: yes, that's C++11's initialize list feature
10:24:21 <fizzie> Funky.
10:24:24 <AnotherTest> *initializer
10:24:53 <AnotherTest> std::initializer_list<my_type> I think
10:24:58 <fizzie> Yes, I see.
10:25:02 <AnotherTest> and yes, that was very very annoying
10:29:33 <itidus21> i always admired the DATA statement in basic
10:31:14 <AnotherTest> mroman: is the source code of stlisp available somewhere?
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11:06:45 <mroman> AnotherTest: No.
11:06:50 <mroman> The source code has gone missing.
11:10:25 <mroman> As I'm not a person who uses backups.
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11:35:03 <fizzie> "You need me on your staff, because I'm a man who thinks."
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11:43:23 <Arc_Koen> hello
11:43:23 <lambdabot> Arc_Koen: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
11:43:28 <Arc_Koen> @messages
11:43:28 <lambdabot> fizzie said 2h 17m 9s ago: Remarks: You have another memory leak: consider ![...] or $n[...] -- in both, you throw away the block Token with deletetop(), but it doesn't free the Queue data in it;
11:43:28 <lambdabot> yet the only pointer to that data is lost. See http://sprunge.us/WiHK
11:43:28 <lambdabot> fizzie said 2h 1m 41s ago: Remarks: I'm still a bit confused by is_empty not taking a Queue*; the "const Queue q" parameter declaration is especially confusing, since the 'const' can't really do
11:43:28 <lambdabot> anything too meaningful; it's passed a new Queue by value, so from the viewpoint of the caller, it couldn't modify it anyway.
11:43:28 <lambdabot> fizzie said 2h 58s ago: Remarks: In main, printf("Too many arguments.\n", argc); should either lose the "argc", or add a corresponding "%d" in the format. (The '-Wall' gcc flag would've noticed this.
11:43:30 <lambdabot> )
11:44:02 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/guns/comments/z55a3/has_there_been_more_highprofile_gun_crime_lately/c61pen4
11:44:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Ladies and gentlemen, /r/guns.
11:48:31 <fizzie> I didn't say those things with that many newlines in the middle.
11:53:24 <mroman> So handing out a gun to everyone doesn't work out quite as expected?
11:57:22 <Arc_Koen> fizzie: do you think I should change is_empty(Queue q) to is_empty(const Queue *q)?
11:58:26 <Arc_Koen> I mean, there is not really any argument why to use a pointer here; it would be like having something like is_empty(const char **s) to test emptiness of a string
11:58:43 <Arc_Koen> or is_zero(const int *n)
11:59:10 <itidus21> "and how soon before they have a drug where side effects may include rectal ventriliquism. if your asshole starts talking call a doctor.. or get friends over cos it's gonna be a fun night"
12:24:32 <kmc> hi shachaf
12:24:32 <lambdabot> kmc: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
12:24:39 <kmc> against my better judgement, i am awake
12:24:43 <shachaf> kmc: Just as I was about to go to sleep. :-(
12:24:50 <Arc_Koen> @tell oerjan ./fueuec '~!~)): [[48 [)):] [~!~)):] ~~) !][49 [~!~)):] [)):] )~]]' 11010011001011010010110011010011001011001... '110' seems a weird start for the thue morse sequence...
12:24:50 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
12:24:53 <shachaf> Did you sleep tonight yet?
12:24:58 <kmc> yes
12:25:07 <shachaf> Oh. You just woke up early?
12:25:10 <kmc> but my alarm went off by accident at 08:00
12:25:16 <shachaf> Doing better than I am, then.
12:25:22 <kmc> and i haven't been able to get back to sleep
12:25:27 <shachaf> I wish my alarm could just wake me up. That would be great.
12:26:44 <kmc> what does it do instead?
12:27:15 <shachaf> Well, it beeps.
12:27:21 <shachaf> Occasionally I wake up.
12:29:23 <kmc> shachaf: can you use an ESSIV for the nonce part of the counter
12:29:26 <kmc> isn't that enough?
12:30:06 <shachaf> ESSIV is "generate an IV based on the sector number"?
12:30:29 <kmc> based on the sector number and the hash of the key
12:30:30 <kmc> yeah
12:30:54 <kmc> i guess this is not secure though
12:30:57 <shachaf> That's very broken since you can overwrite old blocks.
12:31:00 <kmc> yeah
12:31:13 <shachaf> x ^ y will give you the xor of the plaintexts.
12:31:15 <kmc> you end up reusing the keystream otput from CTR
12:31:17 <itidus21> maybe the internet should shut down overnight
12:31:58 <kmc> whereas reusing the IV for CBC is not as much of a problem
12:32:03 <kmc> but still bad
12:32:23 <shachaf> You get the property that "someone can see if what you wrote to a block has ever been there before".
12:32:35 <shachaf> Which is undesirable in normal uses of CBC but maybe doesn't matter in disk encryption.
12:32:56 <shachaf> (By the way, I don't see the advantage of thinking of the "nonce part" and the "counter part" of the CTR input, rather than just a "counter that starts at a random value".)
12:33:16 <kmc> right
12:33:22 <shachaf> (Alternatively, ciphertext_i = ENC(key, iv + i) ^ plaintext_i)
12:33:51 <kmc> did i tell you i saw a cold boot attack on a spy show on TV? :)
12:34:53 <shachaf> No.
12:35:01 <shachaf> I didn't know that was called a cold boot attack.
12:36:02 <shachaf> I,I called boot attack
12:40:30 <kmc> i guess it's a pun
12:40:47 <shachaf> 05:40 puns aren't worth much.
12:41:08 <kmc> i meant "cold boot"
12:41:23 <shachaf> I know.
12:41:26 <kmc> ok
12:41:42 <shachaf> Is that a fictional spy show or a nonfictional spy show?
12:41:43 <kmc> should i give an informal talk at MIT (a "SIPB cluedump") on how to screw up using cryptography?
12:41:56 <kmc> the show is real; it is a work of fiction
12:41:57 <shachaf> Yes!
12:41:57 <kmc> ;P
12:42:02 <kmc> the show is Burn Notice
12:42:15 <kmc> it is a fairly ridiculous show but lots of fun to watch
12:42:27 <shachaf> Also you should come up with a bunch of CTF challenges that get cryptography wrong.
12:42:33 <shachaf> And then we can make a #esoteric CTF out of it.
12:42:38 <kmc> wish i could make nelhage and gdb do that
12:42:39 <shachaf> Since Stripe probably won't do it.
12:42:42 <kmc> i think i won't have time
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12:43:06 <shachaf> Hmph.
12:43:14 <shachaf> I'll do some if you do some!
12:43:24 <kmc> also it's annoying to run a CTF
12:43:26 * shachaf wonders whether making good CTF problems is really hard.
12:43:29 <kmc> because people try to hack your shit
12:44:01 <kmc> did you see https://blog.gregbrockman.com/2012/08/system-design-stripe-capture-the-flag/
12:44:06 <kmc> i don't know why this wasn't on the stripe blog
12:44:24 <shachaf> Yes.
12:44:32 <shachaf> He talked about it at the CTF event.
12:44:50 <fizzie> Arc_Koen: Sure there is: large structs are conventionally passed as pointers in C, to cut down the amount of necessary copying. (Admittedly a compiler can sometimes optimize. But not without inlining, while still following ABI rules.)
12:44:56 <shachaf> Apparently several of the levels had alternate solutions that they didn't think of.
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12:45:23 <Arc_Koen> fizzie: a queue is a struct made of one int and two pointers
12:45:24 <shachaf> For example level 5 was solved by nearly everyone using an unintentional bug, it seems?
12:46:45 <kmc> which bug?
12:46:47 <fizzie> Arc_Koen: Yeah; anything larger than a pointer quite often counts as large. Anyway, it's a convention, doesn't need to make all that much sense.
12:47:03 <shachaf> Apparently you were supposed to make a response which consisted entirely of a string matching the regexp
12:47:13 <shachaf> /somethingAUTHORIZEDsomething$/
12:47:15 <kmc> you ought to benchmark to figure out whether a pointer or a struct copy would be faster
12:47:18 <shachaf> But $ matches newlines.
12:47:25 <shachaf> Or something like that.
12:47:41 <shachaf> Anyway there was an alternate way involving exceptions raise by certain HTTP responses which was actually what they intended.
12:47:47 <shachaf> Also a bunch of other things that I don't remember.
12:47:47 <kmc> i just put a file with the contents " AUTHORIZED" on a level2 server, and then had the level5 server talk to itself, talking to the level2 server
12:47:53 <kmc> huh
12:48:04 <shachaf> Right, I did something similar.
12:48:41 <shachaf> Do you have your email of level ideas? You should @paste it or something and get people to come up with more concrete levels.
12:48:52 <kmc> maybe
12:49:09 <Arc_Koen> fizzie: ok, I guess I will change it then
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12:49:51 <shachaf> kmc: Any idea what "nm" stands for on http://nacl.cr.yp.to/box.html ?
12:50:13 <kmc> it's pretty remarkable that stripe was willing to spend several developer-weeks on this
12:50:34 <kmc> no
12:50:45 <shachaf> Also, of how you might do disk encryption with a stream cipher?
12:50:51 * shachaf .zzo38.moed
12:53:21 <kmc> i don't know about that either
12:55:12 <fizzie> I did level5 with a pingback URI of https://level05-2.stripe-ctf.com/user-wiosmyvnoi/?pingback=http://level02-2.stripe-ctf.com:54123 and echo AUTHORIZED | nc -l 54123 so that the error response of [[An unknown error occurred while requesting http://level02-2.stripe-ctf.com:54123/: wrong status line: "AUTHENTICATED"]] from the pingback attempt worked as an acceptable reply.
12:55:24 <kmc> ah, cool
12:55:58 <shachaf> fizzie: Oh, that's the way you were supposed to solve it, I think.
12:56:03 <fizzie> s/AUTHORIZED/AUTHENTICATED/ but anyhow.
12:56:28 <fizzie> (I stumbled over the error message completely accidentally, though.)
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13:04:09 <kmc> http://phantomjs.org/ looks useful
13:04:19 <kmc> for testing websites and the like
13:04:27 <Phantom__Hoover> I feel I should make some sort of remark.
13:05:20 <kmc> heh
13:10:41 <kmc> it's quite an interesting idea that the right way to do scraping these days is to instantiate a full headless browser and interrogate it with jQuery
13:12:17 <Gregor> *shrugs*
13:12:26 <Gregor> The modern browser is a VM, not a markup engine.
13:12:36 <kmc> well it's both and a lot more
13:13:11 <kmc> i mean, i am not surprised by this fact
13:13:31 <kmc> but i am wondering if in particular i should do more scraping this way
13:14:10 <kmc> there are some definite disadvantages as well
13:15:50 <shachaf> Do you do much scraping?
13:15:55 <kmc> not that much
13:16:39 <kmc> when i worked in finance we had a whole team doing scraping :/
13:17:31 <kmc> because they wanted to get all the information out of all the different brokerage accounts daily, if not in real-time
13:17:36 <kmc> and integrate it into a master risk-management thingy
13:18:37 <kmc> and different brokers provide a variably terrible experience in getting this data programmatically
13:18:57 <kmc> many of them would at least let you download a .csv or .xls file
13:19:46 <AnotherTest> does a programming language with the name "MIX" exist?
13:20:00 <kmc> sort of
13:20:09 <AnotherTest> (MIX standing for Modular, Interpreted, eXtensible language)
13:20:10 <shachaf> I think it's more of a CPU architecture.
13:20:11 <kmc> it's the fictional CPU architecture invented by Knuth in TAoCP
13:20:22 <shachaf> It certainly doesn't stand for that.
13:20:35 <kmc> labeling your language as "interpreted" is stupid
13:20:39 <kmc> what if someone writes a compiler for it?
13:20:53 <AnotherTest> What if that's not a good idea?
13:21:02 <kmc> what if someone does it anyway
13:21:08 <shachaf> They can't.
13:21:10 <shachaf> It's in the spec.
13:21:14 <AnotherTest> ^
13:21:16 <Phantom__Hoover> That's MMIX you're thinking of, no?
13:21:21 <kmc> Phantom__Hoover: that's the new version
13:21:25 <shachaf> Phantom__Hoover: MMIX is the 2009 version of MIX.
13:21:32 <shachaf> (Actually it's 1992 or something.)
13:21:40 <Phantom__Hoover> Ah.
13:21:47 <Phantom__Hoover> Is the next version MMMIX.
13:21:50 <kmc> suckless MIX, reinvented, done right, for the modern era
13:22:02 <shachaf> MMIX 3000
13:22:08 <kmc> you should look up the etymology of MIX, it's amusing
13:22:36 <shachaf> MIX is a funny architecture in a lot of ways.
13:22:46 <shachaf> ...I know very little about it, but most of what I know is strange.
13:22:49 <AnotherTest> okay I need to come up with a better name
13:22:53 <kmc> but learning it will make you a REAL MASTER HACKER
13:22:58 <Phantom__Hoover> AnotherTest, XIM
13:23:02 <AnotherTest> X.so seems applicable
13:23:24 <AnotherTest> unless of course someone decides to port it to windows
13:23:29 <AnotherTest> then it should be called X.dll
13:23:36 <kmc> ex-S.O.
13:23:48 <Phantom__Hoover> "MIX is a hybrid binarydecimal computer. When programmed in binary, each byte has 6 bits (values range from 0 to 63). In decimal, each byte has 2 decimal digits (values range from 0 to 99). Bytes are grouped into words of five bytes plus a sign. Most programs written for MIX will work in either binary or decimal, so long as they do not try to store a value greater than 63 in a single byte." O.o
13:23:49 <shachaf> That's "Standard Oil", right?
13:24:07 <kmc> yeah...
13:24:12 <AnotherTest> XIM probably already exists
13:24:21 <shachaf> exxon = ex-S.O.N.J
13:24:24 <shachaf> whoa, dude
13:24:26 <AnotherTest> Yes it does
13:24:32 <kmc> at the time TAoCP was written, decimal computers were still popular
13:24:35 <Phantom__Hoover> Yeah, but not as a language.
13:24:43 <AnotherTest> XIM = X Input Method
13:24:58 <kmc> this is one of the reasons why i question the idea that TAoCP will make you a master hacker
13:25:13 <kmc> as opposed to just being an extremely hard and pointless exercise that only master hackers can pass
13:25:20 <kmc> but i'm just bitter because i gave up on reading it
13:25:34 <AnotherTest> there is a XIM library
13:25:37 <AnotherTest> a XIM company
13:25:55 <AnotherTest> a XIM interpal penapls profile(?)
13:25:55 <Phantom__Hoover> kmc, have you tried reading Mac Lane BtW.
13:25:58 <kmc> no
13:26:06 <AnotherTest> *penpals
13:26:30 <Phantom__Hoover> I tried a while back and elliott said he would but I think he gave up after I said it was too maths to understand
13:28:25 <kmc> pineapples profile
13:31:26 <Phantom__Hoover> it's important to obtain a pineapple profile before working on pineapple optimisation
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13:42:32 <fizzie> The assembly language for it is commonly called "MIX" too, in case that wasn't mentioned.
13:42:49 <fizzie> Even though I suppose it's not pedantically correct.
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14:24:34 <shachaf> @ask elliott Write a web scraping bot for me that visits stack overflow com dot every day so I am get gold star.
14:24:34 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
14:24:56 <shachaf> @ask elliott I mean gold badge. GOLD BADGE = MEANING OF LIFE
14:24:56 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
14:25:23 <oklo> i'm pretty sure even i could write that bot with ease, why don't you do it yourself
14:26:30 <shachaf> echo 'something something cron syntax curl -b ~/shachaf/cookie-file http://stackoverflow.com/' > something something crontab
14:27:12 <shachaf> I'm even getting my mock command line syntax wrong. :-(
14:27:16 * shachaf should go to sleep.
14:37:00 <kmc> you can get frequent flyer points that way, too
14:37:17 <kmc> some airlines give you points for checking in at the airport on foursquare or whatever
14:46:03 <oklo> so do you actually have to show your mileage card or how does it work? i never do but i have like a gazillion points
14:46:19 <oklo> i don't really even know what those look like.
14:46:30 <kmc> for foursquare hax or in general?
14:46:38 <oklo> in general if applicable
14:46:40 <kmc> in general you can put in your mileage number when you book flights online
14:46:45 <oklo> and if you don't?
14:46:48 <oklo> i've never done that
14:47:03 <kmc> then you can sometimes claim the points after the flight
14:47:12 <oklo> but i don't! why do i have points :D
14:47:16 <kmc> yeah, i don't know
14:47:21 <oklo> alright
14:47:22 <kmc> are you logged into the website when you book
14:47:40 <oklo> i don't book myself, the university travel agency does
14:47:43 <kmc> oh
14:47:48 <kmc> well they probably set up an account for you
14:47:49 <oklo> maybe they do it
14:47:52 <oklo> yeah perhaps
14:47:59 <fizzie> I don't get any points for conference trips; the university has a rule that all the points go to the university. :/
14:48:12 <oklo> what's the use of the points?
14:48:24 <oklo> or should i say... point
14:48:33 <oklo> ...instead of use
14:48:34 <kmc> you can use them to book free travel and other free things
14:48:45 <fizzie> Or discounts for things.
14:49:23 <fizzie> Finnair has discount deals with at least some restaurants, we've eaten our points from regular vacationing.
14:49:30 <oklo> well i do like free points
14:49:31 <oklo> erm
14:49:35 <oklo> free things i mean
14:50:24 <oklo> maybe i should check how this works, i do like food so wouldn't want to waste.
14:50:50 <oklo> just sounds so incredibly complicated
14:50:55 <fizzie> The points do evaporate (in something like three years or so) if not used.
14:51:00 <fizzie> Physical fact.
14:51:10 <oklo> everything does
14:51:30 <oklo> they all evaporate at once right?
14:51:48 <fizzie> No, just the ones that are old enough.
14:51:58 <fizzie> Well, one trip's points all go at once.
14:52:04 <oklo> oh right
14:52:45 <oklo> okay i guess that makes sense when the points come in a bunch when you take a trip. the idea of a thousand points with individual ages just seemed a bit silly.
14:53:14 <kmc> sometimes there are ways to keep them alive
14:53:21 <oklo> like proper nutrition
14:53:54 <oklo> i need to go make sure some stuff doesn't get stolen tonight.
14:54:00 <oklo> wish me luck
14:54:00 <shachaf> Blugh. Can't sleep.
14:54:03 <kmc> in the US if you buy one share of stock every day, each share has an individual age and you need to keep track of this for tax purposes
14:54:08 <oklo> me neither, or they won't pay me.
14:54:12 <fizzie> They could have a point half-life and a random process, though, I'm sure physicists would be more interested in the system that way.
14:54:58 <shachaf> I like JetBlue's advertisements.
14:55:03 <shachaf> Points Don't Expire*!
14:55:16 <shachaf> * Unless you don't use any points for a while. Then they expire.
14:55:17 <oklo> perhaps when wormhole travel is invented, points become quantum.
14:55:20 <fizzie> Hey, I've seen one of those.
14:56:04 <kmc> jetblue points are kind of boring and useless, iirc
14:56:05 <fizzie> Finnair has this PlusShop where you can buy all this completely random stuff with points. Lamps, bicycles, frying pans. That kind of stuff.
14:56:19 <kmc> the traditional airline rewards in the USA are based on miles flown
14:56:22 <fizzie> Or maybe it's just money+points.
14:56:28 <kmc> which is strange, because pricing is not particularly well correlated to miles flown
14:56:33 <kmc> and this enables all kinds of hax
14:56:47 <kmc> such as "mileage runs" which are flights abnormally cheap for how far they go
14:56:52 <kmc> which are actually worth taking for this purpose
14:57:09 <fizzie> Yeah, I think Finnair points are just a fixed amount, depending on flight type (domestic, in Europe, intercontinental).
14:57:21 <shachaf> Mileage runs are only free if your time is worthless.
14:57:25 <shachaf> Like Linux.
14:57:30 <shachaf> Except they're not free.
14:57:36 <shachaf> And also not a lot like Linux.
14:57:42 <shachaf> Why are JetBlue useless?
14:57:52 <shachaf> Points.
14:57:59 <kmc> i mean, i know someone who has a high paying job in NYC and does mileage runs all the time
14:58:00 <fizzie> Hrm, apparently there's a bit more variation there than that. But it's not strictly distance, it's some kind of an arbitrary assignment.
14:58:22 <shachaf> How worthwhile do they end up being?
14:58:28 <kmc> if you like flying, and visiting randomly chosen places for brief periods of time
14:58:37 <kmc> and if you're able to do useful things on a plane, like work or sleep
14:58:47 <kmc> then it is more worthwhile
14:58:51 <shachaf> That's true.
14:59:08 <shachaf> Though "abnormally cheap given their distance" is a bit of a strange criterion.
15:01:21 <fizzie> I don't think Delta is one of the oneworld alliance members, anyway, so I wouldn't be getting points from the next trip.
15:01:24 <fizzie> Incidentally, is there something I should know about Delta? Are they considered some kind of a bad thing or something?
15:01:52 <shachaf> I think they're considered a typical mediocre airline?
15:02:00 <fizzie> Suits me.
15:02:08 <kmc> i've heard that delta miles are unusually worthless
15:02:18 <kmc> which doesn't mean you shouldn't fly on delta
15:02:50 <kmc> if you want to know way too much about all of this, http://www.flyertalk.com
15:03:37 <fizzie> I don't know what it is, really, since one of the confirmation mails says Delta, and the other refers to KLM Royal Dutch airlines, pretty much randomly. And one of then even includes Alaska Airlines for a single hop. I suppose they're all kinds of joint-service deals.
15:03:41 * shachaf 's ~/.../travel/* directory has a lot of <kmc> in it by now.
15:03:46 <kmc> heh
15:04:01 <kmc> lexande knows a lot about this stuff
15:04:25 <shachaf> Most of it is about flights, Boston, NYC, NYC<->BOS, etc.
15:04:40 <shachaf> lexande isn't here, though.
15:04:55 <shachaf> You seem to end up in actual conversations about these things in channels I'm in.
15:04:58 <shachaf> That I notice.
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15:43:25 <ais523> basketball tactics are ridiculous
15:43:49 <ais523> just observed: a player managing to gain a large advantage by managing to avoid being fouled for 7 seconds, while the other team were trying to commit a foul against them
15:45:53 <ais523> (the tactic used was basically to run away)
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15:51:40 <Braber01> PATH, Brainfuck and deritivies of brainfuck all use ascii values to print letters correct?
15:56:04 <ais523> Braber01: ASCII is the most common interpretation
15:56:16 <ais523> and not matching ASCII for the range 0-127 would be incompatible with pretty much everything
15:56:24 <Braber01> Thanks, Just wanted to make sure
15:56:27 <ais523> beyond that, it's unclear whether programs are meant to print single bytes or Unicode
15:56:34 <ais523> (single bytes is a lot more common)
15:59:23 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, well, it's a bit of a toss-up between 1 and 31.
16:00:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Nobody ever uses any of those characters except for 10 and 04.
16:00:41 <Phantom_Hoover> And 11 and 27 I guess.
16:01:13 <fizzie> Tabs do get some use.
16:01:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes fizzie hence the 11.
16:01:57 <fizzie> That's a vertical tab.
16:02:05 <fizzie> *Those* aren't used much.
16:02:13 <Phantom_Hoover> 09, ops
16:02:14 <fizzie> The horizontal one is 9.
16:02:42 <fizzie> 13s are around on other systems.
16:02:58 <fizzie> And in HTTP, and around.
16:04:33 <fizzie> And I guess a few 7s to annoy people, and Usenet has a kinda-convention to put 12s before spoilers, though I suppose that might be prety dead at this point.
16:06:08 <zzo38> Not only HTTP; many internet protocols use CRLF line endings (HTTP, IRC, SMTP, gopher, etc)
16:06:24 <Phantom_Hoover> I think I prefer that to the modern spoiler formats.
16:07:05 <zzo38> CRLF is also use as line endings on DOS and on Windows, and CRLF is the printable line endings
16:08:04 <fizzie> It has the drawback that people who don't want to see the spoiler have to stop reading, since there's no "end spoler" convention. ROT-13 works better in that regard.
16:08:58 <zzo38> Actually there is another way: Post the spoiler in another message with "SPOILER" title.
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16:49:29 <kmc> shachaf: do you know about HTTP Strict Transport Security?
16:49:32 <kmc> i learned about this yesterday
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17:15:42 <atriq> @messages?
17:15:42 <lambdabot> Sorry, no messages today.
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17:17:40 -!- atriq has changed nick to 14WAACEG2.
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17:23:51 <zzo38> Can you please review the RogueVM document again? Since, I added a lot of things. Please tell me if I missed anything important.
17:24:05 <zzo38> or if anything is unclear.
17:24:05 <14WAACEG2> Why did my nick change?
17:24:07 <14WAACEG2> Aaaa
17:24:11 -!- 14WAACEG2 has changed nick to atriq.
17:24:22 <zzo38> Did you change your nick? I don't know why.
17:24:46 <atriq> I wasn't paying attention
17:24:48 <atriq> I didn't try to
17:24:54 <atriq> I don't think I did
17:25:18 <Phantom_Hoover> atriq, nick-changing ghost.
17:25:31 <itidus21> i've heard of that.
17:25:36 <fizzie> Doesn't that on freenode change to GuestNNNNN or something.
17:25:52 <itidus21> sometimes in old abandoned theatres when people login to IRC their nicks change
17:26:49 <fizzie> That looks more like the server-imposed nick-collision avoidance thing that is sometimes done. Isn't 14WAACEG2 an otherwise illegal nick?
17:27:25 <fizzie> You can't self change nick to something that starts with a number.
17:27:26 <zzo38> Yes it does look like otherwise illegal if it start with a digit.
17:27:34 <fizzie> atriq: From here, it looked like:
17:27:34 <fizzie> 20:17 -!- atriq is now known as 14WAACEG2
17:27:34 <fizzie> 20:17 -!- atriq [~Taneb@] has joined #esoteric
17:27:34 <fizzie> 20:17 -!- atriq [~Taneb@] has quit [Client Quit]
17:27:43 <atriq> How odd
17:27:50 <itidus21> but thats an l not a 1
17:28:01 <fizzie> It's not an l.
17:28:21 <zzo38> I am trying to play a BBS door game "Franchise Basketball" but there are no free agents!
17:28:21 <itidus21> oh i see
17:29:49 <fizzie> I suppose some kind of a freenode hiccup, two servers both accepting a connection (perhaps your client reconnecting or something) and then getting confuzzled when they both had a user with the same nickname. That kind of thing used to happen a whole lot in IRCnet during netsplits; it was a common way of "taking over" a channel, by killing everyone on it with an intentional nick collision.
17:30:12 <Arc_Koen> hey atriq
17:30:13 <fizzie> (Old IRCnet rule for nick collisions was to drop both users; and there are no services like ChanServ there.)
17:30:17 <atriq> Hey
17:31:00 <zzo38> One thing that could do to avoid taking over a channel would be to use channel types which cannot be taken over in this way: !&+ (anything other than # type)
17:31:35 <Arc_Koen> atriq: I think there are no more problems with my C interpreter
17:32:19 <atriq> Brillian!
17:32:20 <atriq> t
17:32:50 <fizzie> Well, !channels weren't available at that time, &channels are local, and +channels don't support operators at all. (The latter could be considered an advantage by some, of course.)
17:33:15 <Arc_Koen> what about your haskell one?
17:33:22 <atriq> Pretty much working
17:33:33 <atriq> A bit slow, but I think that's a problem with Fueue
17:34:36 <zzo38> fizzie: Yes. Since & are local they cannot be overtaken by other servers, and since + are no operators they also cannot be overtaken.
17:35:02 <Arc_Koen> hmm, my ocaml interpreter appears to be much slower than the C one
17:35:09 <Arc_Koen> maybe that's because of using recursivity
17:36:39 <atriq> How quick is your C one, running oerjan's Thue-Morse sequence program?
17:39:06 <Arc_Koen> weeeeeeell okay maybe not so fast
17:39:35 <Arc_Koen> it takes about five seconds to cover my entire screen with 0s and 1s
17:39:48 <Arc_Koen> however, I'm not sure it's the correct thue-morse sequence
17:40:01 <atriq> Okay, that's quicker than my Haskell program
17:40:38 <Arc_Koen> (maybe 7 seconds actually)
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17:45:31 <kmc> it's so stupid that desktop mice are wireless by default
17:46:01 <zzo38> My computer is wired.
17:46:21 <kmc> my mouse never leaves my desk; why should I deal with batteries, wireless interference, multiple parts i can lose, etc.
17:46:40 <zzo38> You should buy the wired one instead, then!
17:46:52 <kmc> i did :)
17:47:00 <zzo38> OK
17:49:11 <kmc> but selection is limited
17:49:41 <kmc> wired mice are mostly either very cheap and crappy, or are expensive, designed for gamers, and completely ridiculous
17:50:17 <zzo38> I would prefer a three button wired mouse without wheel
17:51:08 <kmc> why no wheel?
17:51:55 <zzo38> So that the wheel will not turn and make it difficult to use the mouse.
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18:02:25 <kmc> i've not had that problem
18:03:09 <Arc_Koen> I'm surprised not to find a functional version of brainfuck on the wiki
18:03:17 <Arc_Koen> with all the derivatives it has
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18:28:38 <zzo38> I think the backgammon on X-BIT is computer player is not very good, because they are in jail a lot.
18:31:19 <zzo38> I have won 24 out of 33. The system operator has played 6 times and lost all of them.
18:31:40 <zzo38> Nobody else has played this game.
18:32:18 <itidus21> is jail a backgammon term?
18:33:08 <zzo38> Yes, basically it means they are placed off the board at your home and must re-enter the board before making any other moves.
18:34:07 <zzo38> This backgammon game does not implement doubling cube, but the person who showed me how to play backgammon didn't know how to use it either (I later read a book and learned how it is used).
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18:42:38 <zzo38> What is this? Please select Your Language: [ 0] LANGUAGE [No Description Available] [ 1] LARGE [No Description Available]
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18:50:18 <itidus21> its a menu
18:50:46 <itidus21> seems like it presents two options [0] language [1] large
18:51:01 <zzo38> Yes but I don't know what those options mean.
18:51:09 <zzo38> I tried both and neither of them seem to work.
18:52:03 <Sgeo> Maybe I should try playing Backgammon
18:52:15 <itidus21> i would have expected [ 0] Australian English [ 1] British English [ 2] American English [ 3] Italian [ 4] French [ 5] Chiense
18:52:38 <itidus21> ^[ 5] Chinese
18:52:46 <oerjan> dammit my sandal broke
18:52:47 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
18:52:51 <oerjan> @messages
18:52:51 <lambdabot> Arc_Koen said 6h 28m 1s ago: ./fueuec '~!~)): [[48 [)):] [~!~)):] ~~) !][49 [~!~)):] [)):] )~]]' 11010011001011010010110011010011001011001... '110' seems a weird start for the thue morse sequence...
18:53:11 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: um you forgot the initial 48
18:53:21 <Arc_Koen> oh
18:53:41 <Arc_Koen> what initial 48?
18:53:49 <Arc_Koen> I just copied the code from the wiki page :)
18:53:53 <oerjan> wat
18:54:44 <Sgeo> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/30/Backgammon_lg.jpg
18:54:50 <Sgeo> I have no idea what's going on
18:55:14 <itidus21> probably this code '~!~)): [[48 [)):] [~!~)):] ~~) !][49 [~!~)):] [)):] )~]]'
18:55:37 <oerjan> yes but there's a 48 at the beginning *cough*
18:55:58 <Arc_Koen> Sgeo: nothing's going on, it's the start position
18:56:27 <zzo38> Yes, it is the start position. Sometimes both players share the same dice but in this set the player have their own dice.
18:56:34 <Arc_Koen> blacks move counterclockwise, while whites move clockwise
18:57:04 <itidus21> having your own dice probably makes cheating easier
18:57:06 <Arc_Koen> zzo38: players almost always have their own dice, except in travel sets or sets that are smaller for whatever reason
18:58:11 <itidus21> but i'll try to be less cynical
18:58:20 <Arc_Koen> Sgeo: so for instance, if you roll a 5 and a 1, you can move one pawn by 5; then one by 1 (or the opposite)
18:58:26 <zzo38> The pieces could be black and red, or other colors, instead of black and white.
18:58:45 <itidus21> except they can't be the same color
18:58:49 <zzo38> Yes, whatever number you roll you move a piece that many spaces. It must land on your own pieces, an empty space, or a space containing exactly one opponent's piece.
18:59:01 <zzo38> You can play in either order. If you roll double, you make four moves instead of two.
18:59:08 <Sgeo> I'm reading the Wikipedia page
18:59:23 <Arc_Koen> a month ago I learned a russian variant
18:59:36 <Arc_Koen> it's basically the same except you start with ALL your pawns on the same file
18:59:40 <Arc_Koen> and you cannot capture
18:59:43 <zzo38> If you land on an opponent's piece then the opponent's piece goes to jail; it is usually placed on the bar in between the half of the board in order to indicate this.
19:00:12 <zzo38> If all of your pieces are in your home, then you can move pieces off of the board. You still need the number to move off of the board, though.
19:00:26 <zzo38> If all of your pieces are off the board and not in jail, you win.
19:00:49 <Arc_Koen> well, you win first leg
19:01:02 <itidus21> i think it would be interesting to have a dice with a "roll twice" face
19:01:27 <zzo38> If you are in jail, then you must move from the opponent's off the board into your opponent's home and cannot make any other moves until you are not in jail.
19:01:34 <zzo38> You can pass if you have no legal moves; otherwise you must move.
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19:03:20 <zzo38> Another feature of the game (not always used) is doubling cube. You can offer to double the bet and if your opponent accepts, the game continues and however wins earns double points. If your opponent declines, then he loses the game instantly.
19:03:32 <Arc_Koen> what do you mean "not always used"? :(
19:04:21 <zzo38> I mean sometimes backgammon is played without the doubling cube rule, such as if you are not counting the score. Usually doubling cube rule is used, though.
19:04:39 <Sgeo> "Backgammon has an established opening theory, although it is less detailed than that of games like chess."
19:04:50 <Sgeo> That kind of annoys me
19:04:57 <Sgeo> Maybe I don't like opening theory
19:06:02 <itidus21> one way to think about games is to see them as falling into 2 categories, win or not-win
19:06:27 <itidus21> really horrible choice there
19:06:52 <Arc_Koen> Sgeo: you really don't need to study opening theory to start playing backgammon
19:06:52 <itidus21> but
19:07:12 <Arc_Koen> even if you want to progress, i don't think the opening is the best thing to study
19:08:12 <itidus21> one thing games have in common is that after the player-decisions and rules and random elements have all been processed, the final result is win, lose, or draw
19:08:31 <itidus21> except not all games
19:08:50 <itidus21> i am interested in games where the final resuilt isn't win, lose or draw
19:08:55 <zzo38> Sometimes there is also the score.
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19:09:15 <zzo38> Other times both players can win, or both lose, or something else, too.
19:09:24 <zzo38> Depending on the game.
19:09:52 <itidus21> zzo38: yeah i am new to the reality of it
19:11:22 <Arc_Koen> well in go tournaments in europe, if there is a dispute and both players are showing bad faith, the referee can decide to have them both loose
19:11:53 <zzo38> In any tournament it is possible for both sides to be disqualified, I think.
19:12:06 <itidus21> i think it is rare that the outcome of a game actually affects someones life
19:12:49 <zzo38> If it is Washizu Mahjong then you will win/lose millions of yen and also your blood.
19:13:12 <itidus21> humm
19:13:14 <Arc_Koen> zzo38: they are not disqualified, they just lose one game
19:13:39 <itidus21> zzo38: ok so i am wrong 2 out of 2 of my claims so far!
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19:14:13 <zzo38> Arc_Koen: O, they are not disqualified. I thought it was.
19:14:39 <itidus21> but, that being said, in real casinos if you will millions can you just walk out unhassled?
19:15:21 <itidus21> or do you need some kind of threat if they don't pay up?
19:16:19 <itidus21> i can sort of imagine that its a bit like insurance companies which make their money by not paying out
19:16:38 <Arc_Koen> zzo38: well, I think you can be disqualified for a few other reasons, such as making a deal with your opponent or stuff like that
19:17:25 <Arc_Koen> those kind of things happen a lot more with chess tournaments
19:17:52 <itidus21> zzo38: i have no idea since i have never gambled > $100 :P
19:18:33 <zzo38> I have never gambled > $100 either. Nor have I ever gambled at all in a casino, and I do not intend to.
19:19:08 <itidus21> well i only played blackjack a few times in melbourne
19:19:23 <zzo38> Did they tell you to go away?
19:19:31 <zzo38> The casino owners are always allowed to tell you to go away.
19:19:37 <itidus21> hmmm
19:19:50 <Arc_Koen> "then I was thrown out because I knew how to play"
19:19:51 <itidus21> no i guess i was looking sober at that time
19:20:17 <itidus21> no no i wasnt thrown out... it was more because my friend was a gambler type who loved to throw his money away
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19:20:37 <itidus21> somehow some people get satisfied by emptying their pockets
19:20:50 <itidus21> like it makes them feel sick to save money
19:21:05 <kmc> "i don't think that's quite right"
19:21:15 <Arc_Koen> well, if you save money up and you still have some at the moment you die, then you could say it's wasted
19:21:28 <kmc> perhaps some of these people exist, but i don't think it describes the typical non-pathological gambler
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19:22:01 <itidus21> kmc: well.. its not really casino gambling, more the poker machines
19:22:15 <kmc> "poker" machines are basically slots right?
19:22:21 <itidus21> ya
19:22:27 <itidus21> pokies or slot machines
19:22:30 <zzo38> Poker machines are like slot machines except you can select which cards to discard.
19:22:50 <itidus21> hmm well... in australia for some reaosn they call slot machines poies
19:22:53 <itidus21> pokies
19:23:08 <kmc> 'That's an odd name. I'd have called them "chazzwazzers".'
19:23:57 <itidus21> you can play slot machines more or less anywhere in australia
19:24:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Because you poke coins into them, duh
19:24:49 <itidus21> i dont know if thats typical
19:25:02 <Phantom_Hoover> I've... never seen a slot machine.
19:25:23 <kmc> in some parts of the USA they have slot machines in gas stations and airports and such
19:25:28 <kmc> nevada, and indian reservations
19:25:37 <Phantom_Hoover> So can you max out your luck stat and make a killing on the slot machines like in New Vegas.
19:25:40 <itidus21> well.. they have them everywhere here... and also brothels
19:26:06 <itidus21> what else can you expect from convicts
19:26:40 <itidus21> well when i say everywhere i don't mean literally everywhere
19:27:00 <itidus21> but mostly if you can go there to drink
19:27:39 <fizzie> We "always" have slot machines in gas stations, it's kind of a staple. Those, and quite a few bars.
19:27:52 <fizzie> There's also the Pajatso thing.
19:27:57 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523.
19:28:08 <fizzie> "Payazzo (or pajatso) is a traditional Finnish gambling arcade game, dating back to the 1920s, when it was introduced into Finland from Germany. The object of payazzo is to flick a coin into one of the winning slots. When the attempt is successful, the machine rewards the player with a couple of coins. If the attempt is unsuccessful, the player loses the flicked coin."
19:28:20 <zzo38> Yes I have read about that on Wikipedia.
19:28:33 <zzo38> There are some similarity to pachinko.
19:29:08 <fizzie> http://www.suomenpeliautomaattihistoriallinenseura.fi/pics/timo/50pjasso.jpg -- that's the one from the 70s, I've seen those.
19:29:34 <fizzie> There's also very little similarity to a pinball machine.
19:29:39 <itidus21> i guess they're everywhere
19:29:58 <zzo38> Pachinko is more similarity to pinball than pajatso is, though.
19:30:00 -!- tswett_ has changed nick to tswett.
19:30:07 <fizzie> Yes, I think there's a ball?
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19:30:13 <zzo38> Yes, there is a ball.
19:30:29 <fizzie> The Finnish gambling monopoly company has a web version of the game; you drag a finger, and then release, and it flicks the coin and animates something that looks a bit like physics.
19:30:36 <fizzie> I'm reasonably sure the output is randomized, though.
19:30:44 <itidus21> lol
19:30:51 <fizzie> Since it would be pretty trivial to move mouse in an exactly identical way.
19:31:12 <Arc_Koen> ok, I'm very sad to declare this but I just created a brainfuck derivative (on the plus side, it's functional instead of imperative)
19:31:26 <kmc> it's probably pretty different from brainfuck then
19:31:30 <fizzie> Arc_Koen: Duck, I'm sure there's a brick coming.
19:31:36 <itidus21> you mean that you're reasonably sure that an online gambling system does not allow the client software to control the outcome? :P :P
19:32:41 <Arc_Koen> http://sprunge.us/jEhM
19:32:48 <itidus21> i wonder how they pull that off
19:33:28 <zzo38> Shuffle a standard deck of cards and deal thirty cards in six rows of five, the first row face up and the rest face down. You can turn over a face-down card from any row or leave all the cards alone. If you turn over a card, you can look at it and must continue so that the total number of cards turned is the number of the row (1 for the first face-down row, 2 for the second face-down row, all 5 for the last row).
19:34:07 <zzo38> You may turn cards from only one row; not from multiple rows. After doing so, cards from the initially face-up row in the same column as turned cards are turned face-down. Scoring is then as in video poker.
19:34:55 <fizzie> Arc_Koen: Is there some kind of a theoretical reason why not just assign individual numbers in the order of the (s that start the particular function.
19:35:00 <zzo38> Assume that the player has X-ray vision and can see all the cards even before they are turned. Further assume that there are no taxes, service charges, or comp bonuses. What is the probability of winning?
19:35:22 <zzo38> How much money can the player expect to win or lose on average?
19:35:51 <Arc_Koen> fizzie: well I don't like the idea that a function's number depends on the numbers of functions which it cannot call
19:36:23 <Arc_Koen> hmmm ok I think I have an idea
19:36:35 <zzo38> What would it be if the player did not have X-ray vision?
19:37:23 <Arc_Koen> fizzie: what about (1) (2) ((6)(7)3) (4) (((8)6)(7)5) main
19:37:39 <Arc_Koen> so a function number is "the smallest available number"
19:39:26 <fizzie> I'm personally okay with that, but then again I would've been okay with just consecutive unique numbers too.
19:39:34 <oerjan> @tell atriq <atriq> A bit slow, but I think that's a problem with Fueue <-- I think programs like my thue-morse program could be sped up a lot if you kept track of long subsequences of non-triggering elements (e.g. blocks)
19:39:34 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
19:40:03 <oerjan> @tell atriq So that you could skip around the parts of the queue that are presently doing nothing
19:40:03 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
19:40:05 <fizzie> Arc_Koen: Not related, but was your latest fueue.c around?
19:40:21 <Arc_Koen> probably not
19:41:14 <Arc_Koen> http://sprunge.us/ENEA
19:43:33 <Arc_Koen> oh, I did not fix the too many arguments thing
19:47:04 <fizzie> Oh, one other remark I was thinking about were the // comments. They're legal C99 (and GNU Canything), but many folks still advocate being compatible with C90/C89, at least if not making use of any of the more substantial C99 features.
19:47:43 <kmc> i think they're legal in MSVC too, even though they refuse to implement all of C99
19:47:46 <kmc> not sure though
19:47:54 <kmc> you should just write C code which can also be compiled as C++ ;)
19:48:10 <pikhq_> I have a nicer policy.
19:48:15 <pikhq_> Don't support broken C compilers.
19:48:15 <FreeFull> Not all C code is valid C
19:48:17 <pikhq_> MSVC is broken.
19:48:18 <Arc_Koen> the // comments are not legal in C89??
19:48:19 <FreeFull> Not all C code is valid C++*
19:48:23 <pikhq_> Arc_Koen: Nope.
19:48:26 <kmc> FreeFull: correct
19:48:27 <fizzie> Arc_Koen: No, only /* comments */ are.
19:48:36 <pikhq_> FreeFull: Much valid C code is not valid C++ code.
19:48:36 <Arc_Koen> wow, I wasn't aware of that
19:49:05 * Arc_Koen 's been lied to once more!
19:49:41 <pikhq_> No implicit casts from void* basically jacks up idiomatic C.
19:49:47 <kmc> almost all compilers support // comments, though
19:49:53 <fizzie> The fueue.c code seems to be mostly valid C++, except for four instances of relying on the implicit conversion of void* to Token*.
19:49:55 <kmc> ime
19:51:12 <Arc_Koen> wow, and /* */ comments cannot be nested
19:51:21 <FreeFull> Also, C code that uses new or delete as a name for something won't be valid C++
19:51:31 <kmc> people aren't always clear when talking about "what's in C" versus "what's supported by my C compiler"
19:51:34 <kmc> Arc_Koen: yeah
19:51:46 <FreeFull> Arc_Koen: You didn't know that?
19:51:48 <kmc> nestable multi-line comments are somewhat rare
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19:52:04 <kmc> i don't think any of the languages which use /* comments */ support nesting
19:52:07 <kmc> (correct me if wrong)
19:52:17 <kmc> haskell, ocaml, and lua do
19:52:28 <Arc_Koen> FreeFull: I may have known it a few years ago but somehow it wasn't flag as "relevant" by my brain
19:52:33 <kmc> wait, lua doesn't
19:53:07 <Arc_Koen> however I certainly did not know that // was not C89
19:53:10 <fizzie> Arc_Koen: clang from llvm 3.0 with -Weverything has four things to say (ignoring the printf argument thing), and they're all fairly minor: 1) the 'break;' after 'return;' for H is unreachable; 2) and 3) it's going to add padding to your structures; 4) 'error_empty' could be declared with 'noreturn'.
19:53:10 <kmc> there is a subtle difference between the way comments work in haskell and ocaml
19:53:25 <kmc> {- " -} is a valid Haskell comment but (* " *) is not a valid ocaml comment
19:53:47 <kmc> (* "*)" *) is a valid ocaml comment but {- "-}" -} is not a valid Haskell comment
19:54:14 <oerjan> > {- "-"} -} "ok"
19:54:15 <lambdabot> "ok"
19:54:22 <oerjan> oops
19:54:28 <oerjan> > {- "-}" -} "ok"
19:54:29 <lambdabot> <no location info>:
19:54:29 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at end o...
19:54:40 <oerjan> > {- " -} "ok"
19:54:41 <lambdabot> "ok"
19:54:47 <Arc_Koen> kmc: and the reference manual lists (*) as the multiplication function, but (*) actually starts a comment
19:54:50 <FreeFull> > "{- Test -}"
19:54:51 <lambdabot> "{- Test -}"
19:54:58 <kmc> Arc_Koen: it does?
19:55:03 <Arc_Koen> yup
19:55:07 <kmc> link?
19:55:15 <FreeFull> > (*) 2 3
19:55:17 <lambdabot> 6
19:55:28 <oerjan> FreeFull: in ocaml
19:55:33 <FreeFull> IAh
19:55:44 <oerjan> > Just {-3}
19:55:45 <lambdabot> <no location info>: unterminated `{-'
19:55:50 <oerjan> > Just { -3 }
19:55:51 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `-'
19:55:53 <oerjan> oops
19:56:15 <oerjan> hm i guess record notation cannot start with - inside
19:56:26 <FreeFull> > Just { (-3) }
19:56:27 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `3'
19:56:37 <Arc_Koen> kmc: well apparently http://caml.inria.fr/pub/docs/manual-ocaml-4.00/libref/Pervasives.html lists it as ( * ), but my pdf version lists it as (*)
19:56:37 <kmc> > do {-3 <- return -3; return True}
19:56:38 <lambdabot> <no location info>: unterminated `{-'
19:56:41 <kmc> > do { -3 <- return -3; return True}
19:56:43 <lambdabot> Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show (a -> GHC.Bool.Bool)
19:56:43 <lambdabot> arising fro...
19:57:10 <kmc> fuck you lambdabot, die in a hole
19:57:25 <FreeFull> > takeWhere (< 3) [1..]
19:57:26 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `takeWhere'
19:57:29 <oerjan> i'd imagine you don't actually want return -3
19:57:32 <Arc_Koen> fizzie: I will remove the useless break; (which is a remainder of the halts variable), but I'm not sure what you mean with 2) and 3)
19:57:33 <FreeFull> > takeWhile (< 3) [1..]
19:57:34 <lambdabot> [1,2]
19:57:35 <kmc> the whole "haha j/k not actually standard haskell" thing has gone from amusing to fucking obnoxious
19:58:15 <kmc> lambdabot is doing irreparable harm to people attempting to learn Haskell
19:58:17 <FreeFull> > takeWhile (<3) "I love you"
19:58:18 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Num.Num GHC.Types.Char)
19:58:18 <lambdabot> arising from the literal `3...
19:58:34 <kmc> it's as if the experts are playing an inside joke on the beginners
19:58:37 <fizzie> Arc_Koen: Well, it means just what it says: the compiler is going to add some padding there. Such is life.
19:58:44 <kmc> making lambdabot confusing for their own idle amusement
19:58:46 <kmc> </rant>
19:59:15 <FreeFull> > takeWhile (<3) $ read "I love you" :: Integer
19:59:16 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Integer.Type.Integer'
19:59:16 <lambdabot> against inf...
19:59:39 <fizzie> Arc_Koen: Technically, you can rearrange members to make it more unlikely, but all the padding is platform-specific. And of course the padding doesn't hurt, except for possibly (probably not, in this case) making the structure objects slightly bigger than they could be.
19:59:43 <Arc_Koen> fizzie: as in "(pad something out) lengthen a speech or piece of writing with unnecessary material."?
19:59:57 <fizzie> Arc_Koen: As in, put some empty space in-between the members.
20:00:13 <fizzie> Arc_Koen: "padding struct 'struct Queue' with 4 bytes to align 'top'" and "padding struct 'struct Token' with 7 bytes to align 'block'".
20:00:18 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: you're not using unions, so all discussion of optimal padding is moot :)
20:00:26 <fizzie> Yes, that is also true.
20:00:29 <Arc_Koen> yes that's what I was thinking oerjan
20:00:34 <Arc_Koen> should I use unions?
20:00:48 <fizzie> It would be a reasonable thing to do.
20:00:51 <Arc_Koen> ok
20:00:52 <FreeFull> > takeWhile (<3) $ [ read "I love you" :: Integer ]
20:00:53 <lambdabot> *Exception: Prelude.read: no parse
20:01:07 <FreeFull> > takeWhile (<3) $ [ read "123" :: Integer ]
20:01:08 <lambdabot> []
20:01:17 <kmc> int x[] = {-1}; int main() { printf("Hello, C!\n"); } /* -}(); main = putStrLn "Hello, Haskell!" -- */
20:01:36 <FreeFull> Is that
20:01:44 -!- Ngevd has joined.
20:01:44 <FreeFull> Code that's both valid C and Haskell
20:01:46 <kmc> yes
20:01:47 <FreeFull> Did you just write that
20:01:57 <kmc> not just now, a while ago
20:02:05 <FreeFull> Wait, the main() doesn't have a return statement!
20:02:09 -!- Ngevd has changed nick to atriq.
20:02:17 <kmc> yeah it's not quite "valid C" in this condensed one-line form
20:02:20 <pikhq_> FreeFull: Not mandatory.
20:02:29 <kmc> of course you can make it into a totally valid C program that does anything you want
20:02:30 <pikhq_> FreeFull: In C99, there's an implicit return 0; at the end of main.
20:02:36 <kmc> pikhq_: really? huh.
20:02:50 <fizzie> Arc_Koen: C11 (and, again, GNU C earlier) adds the "anonymous union" feature, which would let you put in union { int val; char fun; Queue block; }; -- without a name -- as a member of struct Token, and then in Token t refer to the field as simply t.val, t.fun or t.block. But I wouldn't really recommend that.
20:03:02 <kmc> FreeFull: I wrote one that's C, Haskell, Python, POSIX shell, Brainfuck, and DOS .COM program
20:03:06 <kmc> others here have done even more
20:03:50 <atriq> In K&R C, I have no idea what's going on
20:03:50 <lambdabot> atriq: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
20:03:54 <atriq> @messages
20:03:54 <lambdabot> oerjan said 24m 20s ago: <atriq> A bit slow, but I think that's a problem with Fueue <-- I think programs like my thue-morse program could be sped up a lot if you kept track of long subsequences of
20:03:54 <lambdabot> non-triggering elements (e.g. blocks)
20:03:54 <lambdabot> oerjan said 23m 51s ago: So that you could skip around the parts of the queue that are presently doing nothing
20:04:09 -!- atriq has changed nick to Taneb.
20:04:14 <Taneb> @messages
20:04:14 <lambdabot> You don't have any new messages.
20:04:15 <fizzie> kmc: On the other hand, C99 also makes all those "main() { blah; }" programs, that used to be invalid due to missing return, instead invalid due to deprecating the "implicit int" feature.
20:04:17 -!- Taneb has changed nick to Ngevd.
20:04:24 <Ngevd> @messages
20:04:24 <lambdabot> You don't have any new messages.
20:04:27 -!- Ngevd has changed nick to atriq.
20:04:41 <FreeFull> Implicit int made for some interesting stuff
20:06:03 <kmc> ghc will also warn that the function 'int' has non-exhaustive patterns and isn't used
20:06:07 <kmc> but you can fix these things as well
20:06:08 <fizzie> "auto mobile;" is no longer a valid int variable. :/
20:06:22 <kmc> "auto fellatio;"
20:07:18 <FreeFull> auto mobile = 0; would be valid C++11
20:07:38 <FreeFull> Maybe make it auto mobile =0; and pretend =0 is a duck
20:07:56 <kmc> haha
20:10:01 <oerjan> if it walks like a duck it might be an automobile
20:10:23 -!- augur_ has joined.
20:10:27 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: so now it's all gonna be q->top->val->fun?
20:11:05 <Arc_Koen> that sounds unreasonably too much arrow populated (uh, maybe the last arrow was supposed to be a dot, but still)
20:11:42 <oerjan> sad trombone
20:13:07 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:13:15 <oerjan> q->top->u.fun
20:13:29 * oerjan has no idea whether that's good practice
20:14:27 <fizzie> oerjan: I've seen one-letter union names in that context.
20:14:38 <fizzie> Though I would've put in "d" as in data.
20:14:39 <Arc_Koen> I just used search and replace to correct everything and I'm pretty sure that's a very bad thing to do
20:15:01 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: TSK TSK TSK
20:15:23 <Arc_Koen> gcc doesn't seem to mind, though
20:15:54 <oerjan> on the bright side, it'll still be much less verbose than java.
20:16:15 <fizzie> Arc_Koen: Did you notice my anonymous-union comment? It's meant exactly to reduce the dottiness.
20:16:26 <kmc> unions considered harmful
20:16:36 <oerjan> kmc: FILTHY CAPITALIST
20:16:46 <fizzie> union jack;
20:17:04 <fizzie> Whoops, missing a name there.
20:17:06 <Arc_Koen> fizzie: I did, but you also said you would perhaps not recommand it
20:17:06 <kmc> yeah the united states of america would never stand for that
20:17:19 <fizzie> Arc_Koen: Right, just checking.
20:17:31 <Arc_Koen> (it was tempting though)
20:18:18 <Arc_Koen> aaaaaaaaaaaand )$2[)$--------2~)~~[)[)~(~[~[$~H~]~)%+~91-):]~1+:])]]~[$~H~])%+-91)[65][65] is a cat
20:18:35 <oerjan> ...that may not be entirely correct.
20:19:53 <fizzie> Arc_Koen: You can add macros, but that's probably even worse. There's quite a few headers that do stuff like http://sprunge.us/FRJL
20:20:33 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: what, you don't believe me? http://pastebin.com/0UGHnVdY
20:20:56 <Arc_Koen> fizzie: is that corean C?
20:21:08 <fizzie> (The macro is there so that you can have struct in6_addr x; f(x.s6_addr); and have that expand to struct in6_addr x; f(x.__in6_u.__u6_addr8); but of course the macro will expand the token "s6_addr" absolutely anywhere, not just when it's being used to access a member.
20:21:20 <fizzie> They're counting on nobody having any other 's6_addr's except as a member.
20:21:23 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: shocking
20:21:37 <fizzie> But a #define val u.val is kind of horreeble.
20:21:39 <kmc> korean C?
20:22:01 <Arc_Koen> oh right korea has a k in english
20:22:15 <oerjan> those darn core people
20:22:31 <atriq> Arc_Koen, what's your native language?
20:22:36 <Arc_Koen> french
20:22:43 <oerjan> lifthrasiir: LEARN TO SPELL YOUR COUNTRY CONSISTENTLY
20:22:54 <oerjan> I'M SURE IT'S YOUR FAULT
20:23:29 <kmc> isn't it called 한국
20:24:07 <Arc_Koen> see, the lower part of 한 looks way more like a C than a K
20:25:08 <oerjan> clearly that is why.
20:25:41 <oerjan> although istr the korean alphabet puts the letters top down in the characters
20:26:31 <fizzie> 한 is a dude in a hat using a computer with a wall-mounted monitor, right?
20:26:58 <atriq> Korea. Only culture that would have a letter for that.
20:27:23 <fizzie> And then use it in their own name.
20:28:02 <oerjan> just to clarify what i meant, iiuc 한 is three letters.
20:29:38 <kmc> yep http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/69/Hangeul.svg
20:29:46 <Arc_Koen> reading them counterclockwise sounds like koc
20:29:59 <Arc_Koen> so that would be kocea afterall
20:30:12 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
20:30:20 <fizzie> oerjan: Yes, the letters being "dude in a hat", "using a keyboard/mouse", and "wall-mounted monitor". It's nice that they can combine them like that.
20:31:03 * oerjan swatteth fizzie -----###
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20:42:42 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: oh did you fix the bugs with introducing union? i think i realized what happened at that 2-3 line change
20:42:56 <Arc_Koen> I don't
20:43:10 <Arc_Koen> apparently there's something wrong with : and $
20:43:26 <oerjan> could you paste the current code?
20:43:37 <Arc_Koen> I thought it was pushfun and pushnum which had a problem, but they work fine when parsing the program at the beginning
20:43:38 <Arc_Koen> yes
20:44:50 <Arc_Koen> http://sprunge.us/SdeJ?c
20:46:04 <Arc_Koen> :[+ 2 3])) gives ))[ 0 0][+ 2 3]
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20:47:46 <atriq> The "dude in a hat" symbol looks like Terezi's symbol upside-down
20:48:09 <atriq> After a while, everything is Homestuck.
20:48:14 <atriq> Help me.
20:48:38 <Arc_Koen> well, now that i'm using unions the "initToken" function doesn't make any sense any longer
20:48:53 <Arc_Koen> but it shouldn't be harmful either anyway
20:48:55 <oerjan> nor copyToken
20:49:12 <oerjan> which i think may be the main culprit
20:49:30 <Arc_Koen> oh, of course
20:49:35 <oerjan> delete lines 483-484, replace 492-494 with something branching on the what
20:50:05 -!- impomatic has joined.
20:52:27 <oerjan> yeah the rest of the places with val in look ok
20:52:28 <fizzie> oerjan: It's legal to just assign the union.
20:52:54 <oerjan> fizzie: yes. but you need to do the special copying for blocks
20:53:16 <fizzie> oerjan: Disclaimer: didn't look at code.
20:53:28 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: so you could just have one case for blocks and another for the rest (which can just copy the whole union)
20:53:59 <Arc_Koen> oh, right
20:56:29 <Arc_Koen> and it works
20:56:34 <oerjan> yay!
20:57:39 * oerjan returns to iwc
20:57:39 <Arc_Koen> well at least it prints the alphabet
20:58:11 <Arc_Koen> the international whaling commission?
20:58:19 <oerjan> http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/
20:59:22 <fizzie> The irregular whaling commission sounds alarming.
21:00:29 <oerjan> i suggest you bring it up with the international webcomic
21:02:07 <atriq> I need to abscond and...
21:02:14 <atriq> What's the opposite of absconding?
21:02:16 <atriq> Insconding?
21:02:20 <oerjan> @wn abscond
21:02:20 <lambdabot> *** "abscond" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
21:02:21 <lambdabot> abscond
21:02:21 <lambdabot> v 1: run away; usually includes taking something or somebody
21:02:21 <lambdabot> along; "The thief made off with our silver"; "the
21:02:21 <lambdabot> accountant absconded with the cash from the safe" [syn:
21:02:22 <lambdabot> {abscond}, {bolt}, {absquatulate}, {decamp}, {run off}, {go
21:02:24 <lambdabot> off}, {make off}]
21:02:29 <oerjan> intrude?
21:02:51 <oerjan> hm...
21:03:21 <Arc_Koen> runinto
21:03:36 <oerjan> no antonyms
21:03:51 <fizzie> $ wn abscond -antsv
21:03:51 <fizzie> Antonyms of verb abscond
21:03:56 <fizzie> [emptiness]
21:04:00 <fizzie> How rude.
21:04:06 <oerjan> we shall absquatulate forthwith
21:04:26 <atriq> I think it'd be incond
21:04:41 <Sgeo> I have decided to play Backgammon
21:04:59 <atriq> Good luck!
21:05:01 <oerjan> pretty sure the s isn't part of the preposition
21:05:27 <atriq> endocond
21:05:27 <oerjan> adscond maybe
21:05:46 <fizzie> oerjan: "Etymology: < Middle French, French abscondre to hide oneself (1180 in Old French, used reflexively), to hide, conceal (a thing) (1308) or its etymon classical Latin abscondere to hide, conceal, to bury, immerse, to engulf, to keep secret < abs- (see ab- prefix) + condere to put together, to stow (see condite adj.2)."
21:06:01 <fizzie> In particular, < abs- (see ab- prefix) + condere.
21:07:01 <oerjan> wat
21:07:24 <fizzie> They say it's not from "sconding" anything.
21:07:45 <oerjan> i guess ab- is just weird. :(
21:07:55 <oerjan> (sometimes it turns into just a-)
21:08:26 <oerjan> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ab-#Latin indeed
21:08:41 <fizzie> "In classical Latin, ab- became ā- before p- , b- , m- , and v- (compare e.g. āvertere to turn away: see avert v.), and alternated with au- before f- (compare e.g. auferre to carry away: see ablate v.; compare aufer v.), and with abs- before c- , q- , and t- (compare e.g. abscondere to put away, conceal: see abscond v.)." (OED)
21:09:23 <fizzie> (Then it continues quite a lot.)
21:10:53 <atriq> Right, to make my Fueue implementation more speedy
21:11:07 <atriq> I have added another constructor to the FueueItem datatype
21:11:17 <oerjan> yay
21:11:22 <atriq> FCache :: Seq FueueItem -> FueueItem
21:11:33 <atriq> I'm really just groping in the dark.
21:11:52 <atriq> Also, I'm not using that format for defining constructors
21:12:00 <atriq> It's just FCache (Seq FueueItem)
21:12:07 <oerjan> right
21:12:45 <atriq> The idea is that when an FCache is encountered by the execution processes, it can be ignored with the exception of the very end of it, examined using viewr.
21:13:06 <oerjan> hm...
21:13:07 <atriq> Actually, not true.
21:13:15 <atriq> I think the beginning needs to be examined sometimes too
21:13:50 <atriq> Man, this is going to make run double in size
21:13:59 <oerjan> the beginning needs to be examined only by the previous functions
21:14:02 <atriq> Yeah
21:14:13 <oerjan> yes, it will probably slow down stuff when it's not needed
21:14:26 <oerjan> you also need to look at the _two_ last elements.
21:14:35 <atriq> I'm really just groping in the dark here
21:15:20 <oerjan> and you need to pack things into those Caches
21:15:32 <atriq> Yes, I was getting to thet
21:15:34 <atriq> *that
21:16:33 <atriq> Actually, this is an awful idea.
21:16:52 <oerjan> heh
21:17:45 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
21:17:56 <pikhq_> Hmm. With the LuaJIT FFI, Lua becomes a decent language for interacting with C libraries.
21:21:53 <oerjan> oh wait i think you actually _do_ need to look only at the last element
21:22:47 <oerjan> because every case where a function might take two arguments it either does not depend on the type of the second, or the first required type is unstable
21:24:31 <atriq> Good point
21:24:34 <oerjan> (the former: ~ < the latter: + * / $)
21:24:52 <atriq> $ is in both categories
21:25:04 <oerjan> right
21:25:10 <atriq> Even better
21:31:03 <atriq> I don't need to check for numbers in a cache either
21:35:37 <kmc> pikhq_: how does that compare to Python ctypes?
21:36:26 <oerjan> whenever a value doesn't get executed, it can be added to a following cache.
21:36:54 <oerjan> or become a single-value cache, if there isn't one
21:37:17 <atriq> I was thinking a preceeding cache
21:37:31 <oerjan> yes both can be used
21:37:37 <fizzie> kmc: Or JAVA JNA! I'm sure that'd make a decent language too!
21:37:43 <atriq> They could even be merged?
21:37:45 <kmc> -_-
21:37:47 <oerjan> yes
21:37:52 <kmc> "java isn't an acronym"
21:37:59 <fizzie> Whoops.
21:38:09 <atriq> Java Ain't Very Acronym-y
21:38:16 <fizzie> At least JNA is. I got maybe too excited!
21:38:16 <oerjan> except a preceding cache has just been executed so it is possible that it no longer stable.
21:38:30 <oerjan> *is*
21:38:39 <kmc> atriq++
21:38:55 -!- atriq has changed nick to atrir.
21:39:00 <oerjan> so i think merging with a following cache is more sound.
21:39:02 <kmc> hm, i have used JNI but not JNA
21:39:13 <atrir> I'm going to go to sleep now, I think.
21:39:15 <oerjan> and of course a cache can be merged with a following one.
21:39:17 <fizzie> To give credit where it's due, JNA looked like a more reasonable FFI approach than JNI, especially considering the use-case of interfacing to existing libraries.
21:39:17 <atrir> That would be a good idea.
21:39:26 <atrir> Goodnight
21:39:28 -!- atrir has quit (Quit: Goodbye).
21:40:09 <kmc> "you can't use Java, you can only leverage it"
21:40:58 <fizzie> 3. leverage, leveraging -- (investing with borrowed money as a way to amplify potential gains (at the risk of greater losses))
21:41:13 <kmc> yeah
21:41:19 <kmc> but it's also a synonym for "use" in US business-speak
21:41:38 <oerjan> atrir--
21:42:13 <kmc> ("atrir"+4)--
21:42:39 <oerjan> @karma ("atrir"+4)
21:42:39 <lambdabot> ("atrir"+4) has a karma of -1
21:42:43 <oerjan> fancy
21:43:25 <kmc> mprotect("atrir" & ~0xfff, 4096, 0777);
21:43:50 <oerjan> argh
21:44:04 * oerjan wonders if that even makes sense
21:44:24 <kmc> mprotect(0, ~0, 0777);
21:44:48 <kmc> oerjan: well POSIX only guarantees mprotect() on pages obtained from mmap()
21:44:58 <kmc> and it has a hardcoded page size of 4kB
21:45:04 <kmc> but it will probably work on Linux on most platforms :3
21:45:19 <fizzie> I was about to ask "what, POSIX has a hardcoded page size?"
21:45:25 <oerjan> today's yafgc spoiler: so the devils need to save the zombies which are currently attacking them and apparently winning...
21:46:14 <fizzie> I think Linux/SPARC does 8k pages.
21:47:13 <fizzie> $ grep -R PAGESIZE *
21:47:13 <fizzie> include/asm/elf_64.h:#define ELF_EXEC_PAGESIZE PAGE_SIZE
21:47:13 <fizzie> include/asm/elf_32.h:#define ELF_EXEC_PAGESIZE 4096
21:47:13 <fizzie> include/asm/param.h:#define EXEC_PAGESIZE 8192 /* Thanks for sun4's we carry baggage... */
21:47:32 <fizzie> Well, there are at least some 8ks somewhere in it.
21:47:45 <fizzie> Kconfig: default SPARC64_PAGE_SIZE_8KB
21:47:45 <fizzie> Kconfig:config SPARC64_PAGE_SIZE_8KB
21:47:45 <fizzie> Kconfig:config SPARC64_PAGE_SIZE_64KB
21:47:52 <fizzie> Forgot the _ in the middle.
21:48:04 <oerjan> sorry, *demons
21:48:31 <kmc> er, and 0777 is wrong
21:50:42 <fizzie> Heh, that became PROT_READ | PROT_WRITE | PROT_EXEC | PROT_SEM | a couple other bits. (At least it didn't have both PROT_GROWSDOWN and PROT_GROWSUP as well.)
21:53:16 -!- augur_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:54:36 <fizzie> kmc: "atrir" & ~0xfff is also a constraint violation.
21:54:39 * oerjan "fixes" his sandal with tape
21:55:11 <kmc> GROWSBOTHWAYS
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21:55:55 <fizzie> But I do wonder if there's a piece of code with the line int strings = "dummy"; strings &= ~0xfff; mprotect(strings, 4096, 7); /* make all string literals writable */ in it.
21:56:56 <fizzie> Perhaps running a nuclear reactor somewhere.
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22:12:03 <Braber01> How would I convert a bf [ ] into path /\
22:12:08 <Braber01> \/ ?
22:19:11 <oerjan> Braber01: path? hm
22:19:26 <oerjan> no such esolang on the wiki
22:19:37 <Braber01> Yeah the wiki isn't it's called PATH
22:19:46 <Braber01> http://esolangs.org/wiki/PATH
22:20:33 <oerjan> hm i see
22:21:08 <Braber01> yeah the wiki doesn't exactly explain how to convert [ and ] into path
22:21:28 <oerjan> doesn't look too hard
22:21:52 <Braber01> It confuses the fuck out of me.
22:22:15 <Braber01> !bf_text gen
22:24:17 <oerjan> / \
22:24:17 <oerjan> + ^/v!\ }-{- \ \ /
22:24:21 <oerjan> wat
22:24:42 <oerjan> bloody irssi autoconnecting lines
22:24:54 <oerjan> / \
22:24:54 <oerjan> + ^/v!\ }-{- \
22:25:00 <oerjan> \ /
22:25:52 <Braber01> yeah that didn't quite make sense to me. esp when I need something like a value of 57. and don't want to put 57 +'s in a row.
22:25:58 <oerjan> oh wait that method isn't composable
22:26:19 <oerjan> erm that's a problem for brainfuck as well...
22:26:25 <zzo38> What is the "atrir" & ~0xfff consrtaint violation?
22:27:22 * Braber01 examines the code for hello.
22:31:58 <Braber01> I'm going to be right back I'm going to hand trace this program to see If I can make sense of it.
22:33:55 <fizzie> I had a PATH something, I think.
22:34:01 <fizzie> Some conversion or another.
22:34:08 <oerjan> Braber01: i can see that the example on the wiki is confusing because it doesn't exit the loop going rightwards, which means it's hard to nest them...
22:34:49 <oerjan> in fact it doesn't exit the loop the same way when exiting on the first iteration as on a later one
22:35:03 <fizzie> (Maybe it wasn't PATH.)
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22:35:49 <kmc> Port Authority Trans-Hudson
22:35:56 -!- Braber01 has quit (Quit: Page closed).
22:36:41 <fizzie> Oh, right, it was that Beam thing instead.
22:36:57 <shachaf> kmc: Yep!
22:37:57 <shachaf> I don't explicitly know of anyone using it, but then I suppose the point of it is that I wouldn't.
22:38:26 <fizzie> I thought PATH was some kind of a system of trains. Is that what that is?
22:39:01 <shachaf> This is probably one of the ways that I make myself less secure by doing everything in "Incognito Mode".
22:39:08 <kmc> yes
22:39:37 <kmc> it's a rapid transit system which runs between Manhattan and the close parts of New Jersey
22:40:26 <kmc> it goes through a not-quite-tunnel under the Hudson River
22:40:42 <kmc> more like a cast iron tube that they shoved through the silt on the river bottom
22:41:05 <kmc> well, four of them
22:43:45 <kmc> in 2001 one of the stations was destroyed when two large buildings fell on it
22:43:59 <fizzie> I think I've heard of that.
22:44:02 <shachaf> kmc: I've noticed the following phenomenon: If I open a fresh Firefox Private Browsing window and go to some non-SSL websites -- say http://www.facebook.com/ -- at home, it'll redirect to the HTTPS version.
22:44:15 <shachaf> In several non-home public-WiFi places, it doesn't do that.
22:44:27 <kmc> that's awkward
22:44:32 <shachaf> Are there reasonable explanations other than "someone tampering with my traffic"?
22:44:44 <kmc> i will try to think of one
22:44:49 <kmc> this is the problem which HSTS is supposed to solve
22:44:54 <shachaf> Yep.
22:44:55 <kmc> i only learned about HSTS yesterday, so good timing :)
22:45:12 <shachaf> Well, your question reminded me of it.
22:45:14 <oerjan> @tell Braber01 i edited the PATH example, the new method should be more consistent
22:45:14 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
22:45:49 <shachaf> Maybe they're ABC-testing their HTTPS thing and my home IP happens to fall in one group while some other IPs happen to fall in the other.
22:46:00 <kmc> hm, "SandForce SSDs heavily rely on compression for faster speeds and less write amplification"
22:46:08 <kmc> that's unfortunate with full disk encryption
22:47:59 <shachaf> I wonder whther the property that "you can tell if sector A = sector B" is important.
22:48:15 <shachaf> And how much performance it's worth, if it comes to that.
22:48:21 <kmc> you mean using ECB essentially?
22:48:39 <shachaf> Well, on the sector level.
22:48:50 <kmc> well the performance on random data is still good
22:48:54 <shachaf> Or maybe something bigger than a sector.
22:49:10 <kmc> you take like a 2x hit to sequential write performance
22:49:14 <shachaf> TRIM is another thing that presumably leaks information which you do want.
22:49:42 <kmc> but the Intel 520 still beats the fastest comparable non-SandForge SSD at random writes
22:49:51 <kmc> and isn't much slower on sequential writes
22:50:13 <kmc> and read performance isn't affected
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22:51:50 <shachaf> kmc: "For example, an attacker can abort an SSH connection or an HTTPS connection by forging a single TCP Reset packet."
22:51:56 * shachaf didn't know that.
22:52:05 <shachaf> This seems like another property Mosh wouldn't have.
22:52:15 <kmc> isn't there a sequence number issue there?
22:52:29 <shachaf> Presumably a MITM could do it.
22:52:41 <kmc> oh, sure
22:52:42 <pikhq_> Comcast did that to Bittorrent once upon a time.
22:52:42 <shachaf> Or someone on a public WiFi network.
22:52:56 <kmc> the MITM can also just decide to stop relaying your packets
22:53:20 <shachaf> Someone who can read your packets can do it.
22:53:27 <kmc> and yeah, you can't MITM Mosh at the transport layer, because the transport is encrypted
22:53:33 <kmc> probably IPSec also solves this problem
22:53:48 <kmc> and UDP-based VPNs
22:54:02 <kmc> (encrypted and authenticated, i should say)
22:54:08 <shachaf> And CurveCP (whose web page that quote comes from).
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23:07:19 <kmc> if mosh supported roaming on both ends, you could kill a connection by sending two packets
23:07:23 <kmc> i think i have explained this attack
23:07:39 <shachaf> Yes.
23:08:11 <kmc> you could also insert yourself into an existing connection as a network layer MITM
23:08:43 <kmc> which could be useful for some esoteric attacks
23:12:00 <shachaf> Hey, GHC supports interruptible foreign calls?
23:12:24 <kmc> oh yeah, that's newish
23:12:27 <kmc> i don't remember t he details
23:14:08 <ion> How are they interrupted?
23:14:25 <shachaf> SIGPIPE, it looks like?
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23:44:03 <zzo38> I have added commands PRINTM, INPUTM, MESGM which is like PRINT, INPUT, MESG but is using C-style strings; this can be used if you are compiling a C code or LLVM code into RogueVM.
23:44:33 <ion> Wow. /usr/share/zsh-beta/functions/Completion/Unix/_make is insane. It parses Makefiles and expands variables and includes.
23:45:26 <zzo38> Is that for tab-completion or what?
23:46:00 <ion> yeah
23:49:04 <itidus21> zzo38: yay for 10 PRINT "Hello" 20 GOTO 10
23:49:29 <zzo38> itidus21: ?
23:50:02 <itidus21> ^HelloHelloHelloHelloHelloHello[...]
23:50:47 <zzo38> I know it is a BASIC program that will write Hello forever (with line breaks) but I don't know why you write this to me at now
23:51:05 <ion> > (unlines . repeat) "Hello"
23:51:07 <lambdabot> "Hello\nHello\nHello\nHello\nHello\nHello\nHello\nHello\nHello\nHello\nHell...
23:51:13 <itidus21> i think it is a special program in basic
23:51:25 <zzo38> Why?
23:52:26 <itidus21> it's sort of anarchistic
23:52:54 <itidus21> it does nothing of value. while also being an infinite loop
23:53:34 <zzo38> OK
23:53:35 <itidus21> and scrolls the screen away
23:54:04 <zzo38> If it is paper then it will instead waste all of the paper.
23:56:26 <itidus21> its much more fun than "Enter distance: " "Enter speed: " ... "The car travelled an average speed of no-fucking-idea"
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23:57:01 <itidus21> or even worse, a program which lets you enter student grades
23:57:09 <itidus21> and calculates averages etc
00:02:39 <zzo38> I am looking at LLVM document, so that once they add a byte size specification it could compile into RogueVM.
00:05:03 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
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00:07:20 <Sgeo> "We request 16,000 random bytes of data from random.org. We then mix (using a bitwise XOR) those bytes with 16,000 internally generated pseudo-random bytes, in case there is a bias in the bytes from random.org. "
00:07:41 <Sgeo> Might the pseudorandomly-generated bytes be more problematic?
00:08:24 <zzo38> Sgeo: Either way, since they are not related to each other, it cannot cause more problem that they already have.
00:09:13 <oerjan> Sgeo: if random.org has no bias, and the internal ones have no dependency on them, then the result will have no bias (basically one time pad theory)
00:09:48 <Sgeo> Ah, that makes sense.
00:10:20 <zzo38> That is what I meant.
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01:53:18 <FreeFull> oerjan: But it's possible to take a biased source of entropy and unbias it
01:53:36 <FreeFull> Which random.org is guaranteed to do
01:53:37 <kmc> not only is it possible, it's a common CS interview question ;)
01:54:05 <kmc> you can turn independent flips of a biased coin into independent flips of a fair coin
01:54:22 <kmc> but i'm not sure what you can do with non-independent inputs
01:54:30 <oerjan> well assuming they're independent and equally distributed, that's easy
01:54:31 <FreeFull> Basically, if you get 01, that's a 1, if you've got 10, that's a 0 (or the other way around), if you get 11 or 00, you discard it
01:54:41 <kmc> depends on what the dependence is
01:54:51 <FreeFull> This will work as long as there is no correlation between consecutive bits
01:55:18 <kmc> i think you can do it a bit more efficiently, but yeah
01:55:46 <oerjan> not if even index bits have a different distribution than odd index bits >:)
01:56:19 <zzo38> If that is the only difference in distribution, then you can easily account for that, though.
01:57:03 <oerjan> naturally.
01:57:25 <kmc> In Which Many True Things are Said.
01:58:11 <oerjan> And KMC Turns Inside Out.
01:58:46 <FreeFull> Of course, if the source is 010101010101010101010101 (strong correlation between bits) then it won't work at all
01:58:49 <shachaf> More efficiently by looking for 1100/0011/11110000/00001111/etc.?
01:59:07 <kmc> i don't remember
01:59:46 <shachaf> kmc: I heard Haswell is going to have a 56-bit address space.
01:59:50 <oerjan> FreeFull: that's not actually a correlation, or rather the expression would become 0/0 or something like that.
01:59:55 <kmc> fun
02:00:07 <shachaf> Not for people like sbahra who were using those bits!
02:00:10 <kmc> up from 48?
02:00:14 <shachaf> Yes.
02:00:18 <kmc> yeah, well, the architecture tries to discourage you from doing that :)
02:00:22 <kmc> what was sbahra doing?
02:00:36 <shachaf> Something in concurrencykit
02:00:44 <FreeFull> oerjan: After 0, there is a 100% chance of 1
02:00:46 <FreeFull> And vice versa
02:01:30 <shachaf> Apparently it's a big enough win that he's adding some runtime checks for whether those can be used or not.
02:01:51 <oerjan> FreeFull: the definition of corr(X,Y) makes that 0/0
02:02:10 <oerjan> FreeFull: the thing is you cannot correlate with something which doesn't actually _vary_.
02:02:56 <oerjan> another clue is that the odds and even bits are actually independent then.
02:03:26 <oerjan> which is the case whenever all probabilities are 0 or 1.
02:20:37 <zzo38> What instructions and other features do you think would be useful for virtual machine used for roguelike games and other similar grid based games?
02:21:52 -!- augur has joined.
02:22:03 <zzo38> The mouse button on my computer might be broken; sometimes when I push once it act as double clicked
02:22:39 <zzo38> How to fix this?
02:23:12 <shachaf> Push it half, rather than once.
02:23:19 <shachaf> It'll count the half-click as a single click.
02:23:46 <zzo38> This mouse cannot go half. Also, I do not think that is the problem.
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02:25:51 <oerjan> damn i hate it when i've opened several tabs, taking great care to wait until each stops using cpu, and then _suddenly_ and old one wakes up and use it all up. and i cannot even find out which.
02:26:02 <oerjan> *an old
02:27:51 <Phantom_Hoover> nortti why are you oerjan
02:27:54 <oerjan> i recall a couple years ago or so, tabbed browsing used to be nice :(
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02:29:01 <zzo38> Why do you even open too many tabs at once? The problem is the browser is doing a lot of stuff because it is too complicated.
02:30:11 <oerjan> zzo38: but it shouldn't matter when each tab is not using cpu :(
02:31:01 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes they shouldn't be using CPU a lot anyways.
02:31:34 <oerjan> i just went through r/science on reddit and open all the tabs i wanted to read before reading most of them. and i had _just_ finished opening all when one of them started the thrashing
02:32:11 <zzo38> Turn off the features which cause that
02:32:30 <zzo38> Problem is, it is too complicated.
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02:33:16 <zzo38> Advertising blocker may be able to speed it up a bit and so can other things such as scripts off (or selectively), etc
02:37:27 <kmc> ministat is such a great program
02:37:33 <kmc> did someone here tell me about it?
02:38:43 <shachaf> Not me.
02:38:46 <shachaf> I don't even own a television.
02:39:07 <shachaf> Oh, wait, not that sort of program.
02:39:31 <kmc> c.c
02:39:56 <shachaf> There was a program called "Yes, Minister"
02:40:12 <shachaf> Followed by one called "Yes, Prime Minister"
02:40:17 <shachaf> If I remember correctly it was good.
02:40:20 <shachaf> (But it's been a while.)
02:41:18 <itidus21> we get that here
02:41:27 <itidus21> i need to see it more often
02:42:56 <itidus21> it occured to me when i was watching that once that politics and quantum physics have a lot of common ground
02:43:03 <itidus21> ^mechanics
02:43:24 <zzo38> In what way?
02:44:47 <itidus21> well, i think that the trick to boiling an egg is filling a saucepan with regular tap water over a flame and adding an egg
02:45:10 <zzo38> OK
02:45:14 <itidus21> this process really exemplifies the boiling of an egg
02:45:44 <itidus21> is there any more questions?
02:45:51 <zzo38> I don't know.
02:46:44 <itidus21> nah..
02:47:09 <itidus21> my dad explained to me once that the point was that they would say a lot without actually saying anything
02:47:21 <itidus21> the egg thing was a bad example of that
02:47:31 * oerjan thinks itidus21 just earned a hit with the saucepan ===\__/
02:47:45 <zzo38> A hot saucepan this time.
02:48:01 <zzo38> With eggs in it.
02:48:12 <oerjan> i don't have any eggs.
02:48:33 <zzo38> Too bad.
02:48:34 <itidus21> maybe i have been thinking about eggs..
02:48:36 <itidus21> because i do
02:50:40 <zzo38> Please tell me review of RogueVM specification I have added a lot I need you to tell me if anything is wrong or if I missed anything important!
02:50:51 <itidus21> zzo38: i think it was an episode where the prime minister learns that if he announces something publically, it becomes official
02:51:12 <itidus21> where i was thinking about quantum
02:51:19 <zzo38> O, so that is how it works.
02:51:44 <itidus21> i hope and pray that the egg is not in any episode
02:52:59 <itidus21> i was just randomly tv watching one day
02:53:10 <itidus21> a bit like bird watching except birds follow a schedule
02:55:19 <kmc> i just realized that today is an important holiday for my people (hippies)
02:55:43 <zzo38> What important holiday is that?
02:55:53 <kmc> the day on which the Man burns
02:56:34 <shachaf> You should've gone!
02:56:38 <kmc> nah
02:56:55 <kmc> i'm doing important startuppy things here
02:57:12 <shachaf> What kind of hippie are you?
02:57:16 <kmc> if i had delayed my employment another week, i wouldn't be employee #1!
02:57:20 * shachaf doesn't actually know what "hippie" means.
02:57:25 <shachaf> Who's employee #2?
02:57:27 <kmc> do you know how much, like, cachet comes with that?
02:57:38 <kmc> shachaf: a person you probably don't know
02:57:43 <shachaf> Oh.
02:57:50 <shachaf> Do I know any of employee -3-0?
02:58:05 <kmc> maybe?
02:58:10 <kmc> i don't know who you know
02:59:02 <kmc> what kind of hippie am i? the kind who has already been to Burning Man once ;)
03:03:47 <kmc> shachaf: did you go to the stripe web ctf meetup?
03:03:54 <shachaf> Yep.
03:04:03 <shachaf> I think I talked about it a bit while I was half-asleep in here yesterday.
03:04:08 <kmc> did they say anything about another CTF?
03:04:24 <shachaf> They talked as if they're planning to keep making them.
03:04:32 <shachaf> I don't remember whether they said anything concrete.
03:06:50 <shachaf> kmc: You should add the word "kentucky" to your vocabulary.
03:07:09 <shachaf> «KENTUCKY (adv.) Fitting exactly and satisfyingly. The cardboard box that slides neatly into an exact space in a garage, or the last book which exactly fills a bookshelf, is said to fit 'real nice and kentucky'.»
03:07:36 <kmc> ...
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03:15:37 <oerjan> shachaf: OHIO
03:15:54 <kmc> there's no escaping from ohio
03:16:33 <oerjan> Ohio! Washington? Nevada.
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03:20:00 * oerjan waits for Abstracto to join, so we can have a superfight
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03:40:25 <shachaf> kmc: 20:39 <@lexande_> hunpuns
03:42:15 <kmc> uhachaf
03:42:35 <shachaf> Oh, lexande_ is here.
03:45:15 <lexande_> i heard there was a discussion of frequent flyer miles but i guess i'm rather late for that
03:49:58 <oerjan> yeah, no miles for you!
03:59:48 <lexande_> that's okay, i think i have enough for my purposes
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04:23:53 <zzo38> You are going to have kilometres instead.
04:28:49 <lexande_> LAN's frequent flyer program uses kilometres actually
04:28:54 <lexande_> but i don't know of any other that does
04:29:17 <coppro> hmm
04:29:20 <coppro> blue kilometers?
04:29:39 <lexande_> even e.g. Air France and Lufthansa use miles
04:30:19 <zzo38> I do not like this word "tonne"/"metric ton".
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04:30:51 <lexande_> Aeroflot even
04:41:03 <kmc> Миля
04:42:38 <kmc> rewards programs were invented in the USA because airlines were prohibited from changing prices directly, yeah?
04:42:59 <kmc> did a similar regulatory environment exist in other countries, or did they just copy the US rewards systems later?
04:44:36 <shachaf> Oh, I hadn't heard about that. Makes some sense.
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04:45:03 <lexande_> kmc, no the first frequent flyer programs were post-deregulation
04:45:20 <shachaf> Ah.
04:45:26 <kmc> oh really
04:48:46 <lexande_> when the airlines had government-granted monopolies on many routes it was not so necessary for them to go out of their way to incentivise customer loyalty
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04:51:30 <kmc> i had read that it was a backdoor mechanism for price competition
04:51:34 <kmc> but apparently this was inaccurate
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04:52:40 <lexande_> they did have other backdoor mechanisms back in the day, mostly in the form of inflight product
04:53:38 <lexande_> also those little houses you still get on KLM business class, because they weren't allowed to give customers "gifts" but they were allowed to give customers free alcohol
04:54:13 <lexande_> i guess those aren't really backdoor mechanisms, just competing on other things
04:54:13 <shachaf> Houses?
04:54:36 <shachaf> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2c/KLM_DelftBlueHouses.PNG
04:55:35 <shachaf> Hm.
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04:59:32 <elliott> pikhq
04:59:32 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
04:59:33 <elliott> are you there
05:00:07 <shachaf> > hi "elliott"
05:00:10 <lambdabot> helliott
05:00:18 <elliott> no
05:00:22 <shachaf> No?
05:00:31 <shachaf> I didn't make that command.
05:00:37 <zzo38> Who was it who answered a few day ago about the RogueVM? At the time I did not write enough. Now I need help know if it is enough or if it is all wrong.
05:00:45 <zzo38> Because, if it is all wrong, then I should fix it please
05:02:02 <shachaf> `addquote <zzo38> Because, if it is all wrong, then I should fix it please
05:02:11 <HackEgo> 858) <zzo38> Because, if it is all wrong, then I should fix it please
05:02:20 <shachaf> Yesterday: 23:09 <zzo38> That still does not tell me what codes I need to make this internet service.
05:02:27 <shachaf> zzo38: Did you ever figure that out?
05:02:40 <zzo38> No, I did not.
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05:04:54 <shachaf> http://www.npr.org/2012/09/01/160386904/in-bike-friendly-copenhagen-highways-for-cyclists
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05:04:57 <shachaf> That's pretty friendly.
05:08:07 <kmc> nytimes i think had an article about this recently
05:11:10 <elliott> kmc: please tell me you know http semantics
05:12:37 <pikhq> elliott: ?
05:12:51 <elliott> pikhq: it's ok i solved it without you
05:12:51 <kmc> what about http?
05:12:52 <elliott> sorry :(
05:12:56 <kmc> what are u talking about
05:12:59 <elliott> kmc: is it ok for /foo/bar to be 200 but /foo to be 404
05:13:06 <elliott> or should i make /foo and /foo/ be 403 instead or whatever
05:13:27 <pikhq> Kay, I'll just continue thinking about how much more performance I can squeeze out of this VM.
05:13:40 <kmc> elliott: i don't know; i'd be surprised if that's in the spec
05:13:54 <pikhq> I'm worried that to do much more I'll need a JIT.
05:13:58 <kmc> i think the interpretation of URLs as paths is pretty under-constrained
05:14:02 <pikhq> But I'm *so close* to beating LuaJIT without one!
05:14:04 <kmc> but idk
05:14:07 <elliott> kmc: i don't care about spec, only what the cult ideology is
05:14:26 <elliott> pikhq: what are you doing
05:14:34 <kmc> ok well wrong cult
05:14:42 <kmc> ask someone who lives in SF and has tight jeans
05:14:48 <pikhq> elliott: Squeezing the clock cycles from an interpreter.
05:14:51 <elliott> kmc: what's your cult
05:14:53 <elliott> pikhq: interpreters for what
05:14:58 <kmc> dunno
05:15:15 <pikhq> elliott: Moderately artificial VM spec.
05:15:31 <kmc> cult of the least fixed point
05:16:06 <pikhq> I've already got it down to basically a threaded Forth interpreter in C.
05:17:13 <zzo38> What VM is this?
05:17:55 <pikhq> zzo38: The interpreter's https://github.com/pikhq/cmako, the VM's from https://github.com/JohnEarnest/Mako
05:18:04 <lexande_> the least fixed point is a great prophet but not my messiah
05:18:11 <pikhq> John Earnest being the IRL name of RodgerTheGreat, who was last in here a few years ago.
05:22:36 <pikhq> It's been fun to work on, and at some point I got to where I need to start comparing any benchmarks I do with GCC and LuaJIT...
05:22:52 <pikhq> Slower than both, of course, but by less than you'd expect.
05:34:47 <shachaf> kmc: I saw a Union Pacific train when I was waiting at the Caltrain station!
05:34:50 <shachaf> It was very long.
05:35:43 <lexande_> one of those three freight trains a day, for the benefit of which CAHSR is going to spend many billions more than otherwise necessary
05:43:29 <kmc> creating jobs!
05:44:32 <kmc> freight trains are very long
05:44:43 <kmc> the ones that come through downtown Cambridge, MA on the surface are not so long
05:44:52 <kmc> because they go very slowly and people would get pissed off at waiting 20 minutes at the crossing
05:47:48 <lexande_> also because there isn't all that much freight moving by rail east of the hudson
05:51:41 <lexande_> well, especially not northeast of boston, which is the only place they'd be going if passing through downtown cambridge
05:53:23 <shachaf> My DVD was making worrying noises, so I'm `dvdbackup`ing it.
05:53:33 <shachaf> Now it's still making those noises but hopefully it'll only make them once.
05:53:42 <elliott> dvds don't make noises, shachaf!!!
05:54:45 <shachaf> elliott: Oh no!
05:54:50 <shachaf> What did I put in my DVD drive, then?
05:55:03 <kmc> but who was phone
05:55:32 <shachaf> 1.2G
05:55:35 <elliott> shachaf: kmc
05:55:43 <kmc> not 1.21G?
05:55:49 <shachaf> kmc: sorry ':(
05:55:50 <elliott> he's trying to get out but he's too polite to bother you about it
05:56:01 <shachaf> Oops. I'm so sad I'm crying upwards.
05:56:01 <kmc> ?
05:56:14 <kmc> oh i am trapped inside shachaf's DVD drive
05:56:21 <kmc> trapped in fortune cookie factory
05:59:25 <shachaf> 1.6G
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06:12:12 <shachaf> This is making all sorts of exciting noises.
06:12:19 <shachaf> I wonder whether I could play music with it.
06:14:15 <kmc> sleep, ttyl
06:14:19 <kmc> good luck with your dvd
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06:17:39 <zzo38> Is the version numbering system of RogueVM good? (page 12)
06:19:59 -!- DHeadshot has joined.
06:22:16 <elliott> yes
06:26:23 <zzo38> Did you read it?
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06:27:33 <zzo38> I wrote about the version numbers only a few minutes ago.
06:28:04 <elliott> well,
06:28:05 <elliott> maybe no :(
06:28:08 <elliott> but I am sure it is good!
06:28:38 <zzo38> That isn't a very good answer.
06:28:48 <zzo38> s/answer/reason/
06:28:49 <elliott> :/
06:28:50 <elliott> i am sorry
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08:11:55 <AnotherTest> Hello
08:12:44 * itidus21 googles "crate", unsure which ones are actual crates and which ones are just rendered
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08:46:35 <Lumpio-> I don't think crates exist in real life
08:46:43 <Lumpio-> Didn't they just create the concept to have a handy structure to climb on in games?
08:47:05 <fizzie> Let's ask a dictionary.
08:47:07 <fizzie> @wn crate
08:47:07 <lambdabot> *** "crate" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
08:47:08 <lambdabot> crate
08:47:08 <lambdabot> n 1: a rugged box (usually made of wood); used for shipping
08:47:08 <lambdabot> 2: the quantity contained in a crate [syn: {crate}, {crateful}]
08:47:08 <lambdabot> v 1: put into a crate; as for protection; "crate the paintings
08:47:10 <lambdabot> before shipping them to the museum" [ant: {uncrate}]
08:47:19 <fizzie> Well, it doesn't mention games.
08:53:07 <oklo> your mother doesn't mention games
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09:31:12 <oklo> sorry that was kind of mean
09:44:54 <fizzie> It was kind of median.
09:51:18 <AnotherTest> https://github.com/AnotherTest/X.so yay
09:52:10 <atriq> @messages?
09:52:10 <lambdabot> Sorry, no messages today.
09:57:10 <fizzie> Sad. :(
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10:50:57 <atriq> data Something a :: Something a (Maybe (Ptr (Something a))) (Maybe (Ptr (Someting a)))
10:51:13 <atriq> I'm not sure why Ptrs
10:51:28 <atriq> data Something a :: Something a (Maybe (Something a)) (Maybe (Something a))
10:51:51 <atriq> left :: Something a -> Maybe (Something a); left (Something _ a _) = a
10:52:08 <atriq> right :: Something a -> Maybe (Something a); right (Something _ _ a) = a
10:53:07 <atriq> foo :: Something (); foo = Something () (Just foo) (Just foo)
10:58:19 <spirity> I've been playing magic the gathering
10:58:21 <spirity> does anyone else play this game?
10:58:28 <atriq> I'm more of a Sopio fan
10:58:53 <spirity> would you like to play a variant of chess with portals?
10:59:15 <spirity> and projectile attacks?
10:59:23 <atriq> Didn't kallisti do that a while back?
10:59:29 <spirity> yes
10:59:32 -!- spirity has changed nick to kallisti.
10:59:33 -!- kallisti has changed nick to spirity.
10:59:36 -!- atriq has changed nick to Taneb.
10:59:38 -!- Taneb has changed nick to atriq.
10:59:40 <spirity> ohai
10:59:43 <atriq> Already have, heh
10:59:50 <spirity> wow imagine that.
11:00:00 <spirity> I was thinking of a few tweaks
11:00:26 <atriq> Go on?
11:00:55 <spirity> I wasn't sure what the queen should be
11:01:36 <spirity> it could be a piece that produces reflectors
11:01:43 <spirity> which are just little tokens. coins or dice or whatever.
11:02:13 <spirity> but also
11:02:26 <spirity> it would be interesting to have a special rule that enables you to revive old pieces
11:02:44 <shachaf> spirity: Can you just stick with one nick, please?
11:02:52 <spirity> yes. I will stick with this one.
11:03:33 <shachaf> Can you stick with one of the previous ones?
11:03:55 <spirity> why should I do that?
11:04:08 <atriq> Doesn't kallisti mean "for the fairest" or something in Greek?
11:04:30 <spirity> yep
11:04:42 <spirity> I worship the god Eris
11:05:01 <atriq> Fair enough
11:05:23 <shachaf> You should try irc.efnet.org
11:06:20 <fizzie> That sounds illogical.
11:06:45 <fizzie> It's the Eris-Free network, after all.
11:07:37 -!- Arc_Koen has joined.
11:07:58 <Arc_Koen> hello
11:08:15 <atriq> Hi
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11:29:03 <Phantom_Hoover> d
11:29:41 <atriq> d indeed
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13:39:06 <itidus21> atriq: the last thought i had about chess was to take away the board, and play on some arbitrary real world terrain
13:40:52 <itidus21> an extension of that idea would be that anywhere on earth counts as the board
13:41:07 <atriq> "What are you doing in my house!?"
13:41:09 <atriq> "Playing chess"
13:41:33 <atriq> "I'm trying to sleep!"
13:42:00 <atriq> "Hey, you didn't complain when Dan moved his rook into the Tate Modern"
13:42:12 <atriq> "Why on earth would he do that!?"
13:42:26 <atriq> "To pin my bishop against my queen so I couldn't check him."
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13:53:00 <itidus21> as the game of chess takes place on chessboard on mars surface, "what you're using insanely expensive computer equipment to play games?"
13:53:26 <itidus21> "don't worry, i will be a hero in 70 years"
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14:30:39 <Arc_Koen> "stalemate" "no! I was about to discover water under his rook!"
14:31:50 <Gregor> “If you know what I mean.”
14:35:15 <quintopia> hi
14:36:58 <Arc_Koen> "talking about exploration rovers... I'm pretty sure I don't want to know what you mean"
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15:07:51 <fizzie> "Why are we talking all in quotes?"
15:08:47 <AnotherTest> bye
15:08:51 <AnotherTest> "I'll be back."
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15:10:02 <atriq> "Hello"
15:10:12 <atriq> "My name is Inigo Montoya"
15:10:16 <atriq> "You killed my father"
15:10:19 <atriq> "Prepare to die"
15:10:49 <atriq> Oh, we were still on this?
15:20:48 <fizzie> "I don't know."
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15:27:24 <kmc> hello
15:35:59 <kmc> it turns out that upgrading X was actually useful
15:42:08 <Phantom_Hoover> "How interesting."
15:42:15 <fizzie> `runc int main(void) { char prog = 'X'; prog--; printf("downgraded X: %c(ayland)", prog); }
15:42:19 <HackEgo> downgraded X: W(ayland)
15:46:17 <atriq> `runc int main(void { int x = 10; printf("%d", (x-- * x--) + x--); }
15:46:21 <HackEgo> No output.
15:46:41 <atriq> `runc int main(void) { int x = 10; printf("%d", (x-- * x--) + x--); }
15:46:46 <HackEgo> 110
15:47:11 <atriq> How curious
15:47:13 <fizzie> What is this, some kind of undefinedness competition?
15:47:22 <atriq> Yes
15:47:28 <atriq> That is EXACTLY what this is
15:53:44 <atriq> That's the same as GCC, for probably very simple reasons
15:54:34 <fizzie> I wouldn't be so sure that "GCC" (every version, every platform) does the same thing there.
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15:56:21 <Arc_Koen> atriq: in nandypants, what do you mean "Adds a to the output stream"?
15:56:37 <atriq> Oh, that's going a long way back
15:56:51 <kmc> what implementation is `runc?
15:57:07 <atriq> The contents of the cell pointed to in tape A, Arc_Koen
15:57:30 <atriq> In whatever format the implementer wants
15:57:30 <fizzie> kmc: It's just echo "$@" | gcc -x c - -o $t && $t.
15:57:44 <kmc> ok
15:57:49 <Arc_Koen> yes i got that, but what does the output stream do with it? print it as a 0 or 1? or wait to have 8 bits before printing it as a char?
15:58:24 <atriq> Implementation dependant
15:58:27 <fizzie> The !c in EgoBot has some kind of an unconditional main-wrapping around it.
15:58:29 <fizzie> !c printf("x\n");
15:58:30 <atriq> I never really thought about it?
15:58:31 <EgoBot> x
15:58:32 <fizzie> !c int main(void) { printf("x\n"); }
15:58:34 <EgoBot> No output.
15:59:08 <atriq> ! int main(void {printf("x\n");}; main
15:59:13 <atriq> !c int main(void {printf("x\n");}; main
15:59:14 <EgoBot> Does not compile.
15:59:46 <atriq> :)
16:00:18 <fizzie> I like ##c's candide's ,cc, it's got all kinds of stuff like a lot of guesswork about what code goes where, support for giving options, input, doing editing and s///'s on the program, gdb integration and whatnot.
16:01:01 <fizzie> If you don't generate any output, it produces a list of all locals of main by default.
16:01:16 <Phantom_Hoover> atriq, you need to have brackets after main to call it..l.
16:01:22 <atriq> Aaah
16:01:30 <atriq> C is not something I am very good at
16:01:33 <atriq> !c int main(void {printf("x\n");}; main()
16:01:35 <EgoBot> Does not compile.
16:01:35 <fizzie> 19:01 <fizzie> ,cc int x = 10; int y = (x++ * x++) + x++;
16:01:36 <fizzie> 19:01 <candide> fizzie: [warning: operation on 'x' may be undefined [-Wsequence-point] warning: operation on 'x' may be undefined [-Wsequence-point]] <no output: x = 13; y = 110>
16:01:41 <atriq> !c int main(void) {printf("x\n");}; main()
16:01:44 <EgoBot> x
16:01:56 <atriq> I missed a bracket
16:02:19 <fizzie> I would like to know what that actually compiled.
16:02:47 <Arc_Koen> atriq: you don't need to call main
16:02:55 <fizzie> Possibly a nested function inside the autogenerated main.
16:03:04 <atriq> Arc_Koen, in this implementation you do
16:03:12 <atriq> !c int main(void) {printf("x\n");}
16:03:14 <EgoBot> No output.
16:03:19 <Arc_Koen> uh, ok
16:03:31 <atriq> It runs C statements, not C programs
16:03:47 <fizzie> That's probably because it ends up as int main(void) { int main(void) { printf("x\n"); } } for !c.
16:07:38 <kmc> shachaf: Should I use my free EC2 micro instance for something?
16:07:45 <kmc> I guess I could move IRC and other chat to it
16:09:33 <pikhq> kmc: I'm tempted to do the same.
16:14:19 <fizzie> But then all the CONFIDENTIAL #esoteric chatter would be OBSERVED by a MULTINATIONAL CORPORATION.
16:15:37 <kmc> they would use timing attacks to steal my cryptos :(
16:15:56 <kmc> by 'they' i mean anyone with an instance on the same hardware
16:17:40 <fizzie> They would use acoustic sidechannel attacs using the accidentally user-exposed microphone on the neighbouring machines, too.
16:19:52 <kmc> your mind is the scene of the crime
16:24:21 <kmc> !c while(1) fork();
16:25:36 <kmc> !c printf("Still alive?\n");
16:25:38 <EgoBot> Still alive?
16:25:55 <fizzie> "Spaghetti fork: A fork with a metal shaft loosely fitted inside a hollow plastic handle. The shaft protrudes through the top of the handle, ending in a bend that allows the metal part of the fork to be easily rotated with one hand while the other hand is holding the plastic handle. This supposedly allows spaghetti to be easily wound onto the tines. Electric variations of this fork have become ...
16:25:56 <kmc> !c asm("nop");
16:25:58 <EgoBot> No output.
16:26:02 <fizzie> ... more prevalent in modern times."
16:26:04 <fizzie> Why have I never seen an electronic spaghetti fork?
16:27:12 <fizzie> (Or a cranked one, for that matter.)
16:28:00 <kmc> !c printf("%ul\n", sizeof(void*));
16:28:02 <EgoBot> 8l
16:28:06 <kmc> heh
16:28:33 <fizzie> !c printf("%zu\n", sizeof (void*)); /* let's be correct about it, okay? */
16:28:36 <EgoBot> 8
16:29:06 <pikhq> !c printf("%zu\n", sizeof main); /* And sillier about it too? */
16:29:08 <EgoBot> 1
16:29:20 <fizzie> That's indeed very silly.
16:29:45 <pikhq> ... But main is a int(*)(int,char**). Surely that's not size 1.
16:29:53 <fizzie> "The sizeof operator shall not be applied to an expression that has function type --"
16:30:13 <fizzie> The thing about function designators automatically yielding a pointer does not work when it's an operand of sizeof.
16:30:57 <fizzie> (C11 and
16:30:59 <pikhq> Oh, I see. It's actually getting the size of the function itself, and in GNU C a function has size 1 for confusing reasons having to do with pointer arithmetic on function pointers and void pointers being permitted.
16:31:23 <pikhq> !c printf("%zu\n", sizeof(int(*)(int,char**)));
16:31:26 <EgoBot> 8
16:31:30 <pikhq> That's better.
16:31:35 <fizzie> !c printf("%zu\n", sizeof &main); /* is also okay */
16:31:37 <EgoBot> 8
16:32:25 <kmc> !c int x=0; printf("%d\n", x);
16:32:27 <EgoBot> 0
16:32:52 <kmc> !c unsigned int x[4] = { 0 }; asm("cpuid" : "=b"(x[0]), "=d"(x[1]), "=c"(x[2]) : "a"(0)); printf("%s\n", (char *) x);
16:32:54 <EgoBot> AuthenticAMD
16:33:56 <Gregor> Havin' fun?
16:34:00 <kmc> yep
16:34:09 <Gregor> `echo You realize I'm more fun, right?
16:34:12 <HackEgo> You realize I'm more fun, right?
16:34:19 <kmc> yeah, i have used HackEgo
16:34:24 <kmc> how do i run C code with HackEgo?
16:34:29 <Gregor> `gcc
16:34:32 <HackEgo> gcc: no input files
16:34:43 <kmc> does it have a one-liner function like EgoBot?
16:34:50 <fizzie> I just added that 'runc' there.
16:34:55 <fizzie> You just asked about it, too.
16:34:58 <kmc> `runc printf("foo\n");
16:35:02 <HackEgo> No output.
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16:35:04 <fizzie> It doesn't main-wrap.
16:35:13 <fizzie> `runc int main(void) { printf("foo\n"); }
16:35:13 <kmc> `runc int main() { printf("foo\n"); }
16:35:17 <HackEgo> foo
16:35:24 <kmc> `runc int main() { unsigned int x[4] = { 0 }; asm("cpuid" : "=b"(x[0]), "=d"(x[1]), "=c"(x[2]) : "a"(0)); printf("%s\n", (char *) x); }
16:35:28 <HackEgo> AuthenticAMD
16:35:33 <Gregor> My eventual goal was to replace EgoBot entirely with HackEgo functionality, but I'm a lazy punk.
16:35:34 <fizzie> Don't those run on the same system, anyway?
16:35:34 <HackEgo> foo
16:35:51 <Gregor> fizzie: Yes, they're fundamentally the same except that HackEgo has a persistent FS.
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16:41:30 <kmc> huh, GCC will optimize printf("%s\n", x) to puts(x)
16:42:38 <Gregor> Yup.
16:42:58 <kmc> i wish i could say that's due to some crazy partial evaluation supercompilation mumbo
16:43:06 <kmc> but it's almost certainly due to GCC's hard-coded knowledge of printf
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16:43:32 <Gregor> Of course it is.
16:44:21 <fizzie> GCC knows about timed hits.
16:45:13 <fizzie> It won't optimize printf("%d\n", 1); to puts("1");, however. (At least mine doesn't.)
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16:45:31 <kmc> timed hits?
16:46:06 <fizzie> It's a Super Mario RPG reference.
16:46:16 <fizzie> (Also a tvtropes trope.)
16:46:56 <kmc> ok then
16:46:59 <Sgeo> The fuck
16:47:04 <Sgeo> Doing my homework online
16:47:06 <Sgeo> Multiple choice
16:47:16 <Sgeo> The answer is pretty blatently not one of the choices
16:48:37 <fizzie> Inspect Element and write your own. (Is not going to do anything sensible.)
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17:00:22 <kmc> drop out of school
17:15:22 <Sgeo> Oh, the correct answer is here, not sure what I was thinking before
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17:28:38 <AnotherTest> Hello
17:28:56 <kmc> hi
17:31:21 <shachaf> kmc: Like what?
17:32:22 <kmc> i don't know!
17:32:29 <kmc> maybe move IRC and other chat to it
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17:32:59 <shachaf> You could get a "real" VPS thing instead of an EC2 Micro instance.
17:33:26 <kmc> sure, but the EC2 micro instance is free, and I've already signed up for the service
17:33:55 <shachaf> Well, running IRC on it sounds reasonable, I guess.
17:34:26 <AnotherTest> wait - is #esoteric moving from freenode?
17:34:43 <shachaf> Yes -- we're all going to go onto kmc's little EC2 Micro Instance.
17:35:01 <AnotherTest> That doesn't sound good, but I assume irony
17:35:12 <kmc> AnotherTest: i meant that I would run my IRC client on said micro instance
17:35:19 <AnotherTest> ah
17:35:27 <AnotherTest> sorry wasn't following
17:35:30 <shachaf> AnotherTest: I assure you there was no irony intended.
17:35:36 <kmc> i wasn't very clear
17:36:27 <Sgeo> Whatthefuck
17:36:44 <Sgeo> http://www.flounder.com/badprogram.htm#clipboard
17:36:54 <Sgeo> "I've seen people use it for interprocess communication. This is absolutely beyond any shadow of a doubt the WRONG thing to do."
17:37:02 <Sgeo> Why the fuck would anyone use the clipboard like that
17:37:19 <kmc> because people are stupid
17:38:04 <kmc> more charitably, because people are interested in getting their particular thing working in their particular environment, and don't worry about it being robust or "good practice"
17:39:47 <AnotherTest> Why are you reading about bad code?
17:39:52 <AnotherTest> That always makes me sad
17:40:05 <AnotherTest> Use of malloc/free in C++ programs -> so true
17:40:49 <AnotherTest> also that's not "potentially harmful"
17:41:00 <AnotherTest> that should be "potentially fatal"
17:41:10 <kmc> eh, that one's not so bad, assuming you're using it for POD and not objects
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17:41:17 <AnotherTest> delete something that was allocated with malloc (with C++ delete)
17:41:21 <AnotherTest> that should be fatal
17:41:27 <kmc> yes, that's another matter
17:42:04 <shachaf> Yes, you never want to do it with C++ delete. That's why I use C/C++ delete.
17:42:52 <AnotherTest> isn't "not using RAII" on the list?
17:43:13 <AnotherTest> hm. it isn't
17:45:57 <AnotherTest> oh it's just windows applications
17:46:55 <AnotherTest> Has anyone here ever heard of "Anshu Avinash of the Programming Club"
17:47:01 <AnotherTest> pclub.in or something
17:50:15 <AnotherTest> I think he's trying to steal my source code :(
17:50:15 <AnotherTest> Well he might not. Not sure.
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17:59:13 <fizzie> You could say that regular copying and pasting is a form of interprocess communication.
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18:17:17 <Sgeo> Clojure's -> annoys me
18:17:23 <Sgeo> http://blog.fogus.me/2010/09/28/thrush-in-clojure-redux/
18:24:28 <kmc> Welcome to Arco AM/PM Mini-market. We would like to advise our customers that any individual who offers to pump gas, wash windows, or solicit products is not employed by or affiliated with this facility. We discourage any contact with these individuals, and ask that you report any problems to uniformed personnel inside.
18:24:33 <kmc> Thank you for shopping at Arco AM/PM, and have a pleasant day.
18:25:40 -!- kmc has set topic: Welcome to Arco AM/PM Mini-market. We would like to advise our customers that any individual who offers to pump gas, wash windows, or solicit products is not employed by or affiliated with this facility. We discourage any contact with these individuals. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/wiki.
18:26:01 <shachaf> @arrco
18:26:02 <lambdabot> Drink up, me 'earties
18:28:01 <fizzie> What's the "AM/PM" for? Open often?
18:29:03 <kmc> yeah
18:29:15 <fizzie> The web-shop of the Finnish national railway company (VR) is closed from 23:30 to 06:00. Because, as everyone knows, the Internet is closed at night.
18:29:46 -!- nortti has joined.
18:29:59 <fizzie> (You get timetables 24H, but it's not possible to buy tickets during that time.)
18:30:14 <kmc> the B&H Photo website closes for the Sabbath
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18:32:00 <fizzie> Oh, and our bank said that extra mortgage payments are discouraged near the start/end of month when the scheduled payment goes, because if it happens too close to it, the system might get all confused, and then there might be trouble. (Completely coincidentally, there was a recent magazine article about the state of the COBOL, which mentioned the bank in question still having large COBOL ...
18:32:06 <fizzie> ... systems up and running.)
18:32:17 <kmc> a lot of people have large COBOL systems up and running
18:32:25 <fizzie> I don't.
18:32:49 <fizzie> Anyway, it's possible some of those systems can be a bit... inflexible.
18:33:13 <kmc> yeah
18:33:26 <kmc> but replacing it would involve a huge amount of expense and trouble
18:33:34 <kmc> and will probably result in something that's even buggier
18:33:52 <kmc> at least the 30 year old COBOL program's bugs are probably well documented
18:34:32 <fizzie> They did say their current development uses Java technologies, IIRC.
18:34:45 <kmc> Java truly is the COBOL of the 21st Century
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18:35:57 <fizzie> But they're having some trouble finding "real" COBOL programmers, that would still happen to be alive. Apparently there's a reasonable supply of people who know it somewhat well, but the Real Men are dying off.
18:36:55 <kmc> that is a problem
18:37:40 <mroman> Learning COBOL is actually fucking hard.
18:37:48 <mroman> That's the problem imo :)
18:37:57 <Sgeo> I know a little bit of the basics
18:38:21 <mroman> It's not like lisp, python, php, ruby, java which you can learn the basics in less than a week
18:39:24 <Sgeo> I don't think the basics are that difficult
18:39:47 <shachaf> hi mr. oman
18:40:17 <Sgeo> Each program is divided into divisions. There's a division for information about the program, a division for things such as files that will be accessed, a division for declaring all variables that will be used, I think there's other divisions, and there's a division for the actual instructions that will be run
18:40:44 <mroman> I know.
18:40:49 <Sgeo> The last division is divided into I forget the term. Either paragraphs or procedures.
18:41:44 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/cobol
18:41:59 <Sgeo> There are people who want to learn COBOL, and an article saying why you should learn COBOL
18:42:17 <shachaf> http://www.cobol.com/
18:42:37 <mroman> I don't beleive in "why you should" articles.
18:42:37 <kmc> that's, like, MVC, man
18:42:53 <mroman> especially in "why you should learn" and "why you should beleive"
18:43:02 <kmc> why not?
18:43:42 <shachaf> They're always written by moralists.
18:43:56 <shachaf> "ih8u moralists"
18:45:01 <mroman> kmc: Because there are always reasons for anything.
18:46:32 <mroman> The sponsors of every language can tell you each 20 reasons to learn their language.
18:46:48 <mroman> and some of them might even be the same.
18:48:08 <mroman> and 75% of the reasons are actually good reasons.
18:48:59 <mroman> and they are written from a personal viewpoint of the author.
18:49:39 <AnotherTest> "why you should not believe why you should articles"
18:49:42 <mroman> that ultimatively biases it.
18:49:53 <mroman> AnotherTest: Nice one ;)
18:50:23 <mroman> If you are a COBOL programmer I'd actually want you to give me reasons NOT TO learn COBOL
18:50:49 <mroman> and if there are few reasons not to learn it, then I actually might.
18:51:03 <kmc> mroman: uh, of course the articles are biased, you have to take that into account when you read it
18:51:12 <kmc> do you in general refuse to read anything with an opinion
18:51:28 <shachaf> kmc: I only read the unbiased weblog articles on the Internet.
18:51:30 <mroman> If somebody really knows his stuff, he can tell me the weaknesses of it.
18:51:32 <shachaf> This is a time-saving measure.
18:51:32 <AnotherTest> I don't think you will find a lot of information that doesn't contain opinion
18:51:42 <mroman> Else he's just so biased of his language that I just won't listen to him.
18:51:54 <kmc> mroman: maybe that should be a different article though
18:51:56 <kmc> anyway
18:52:11 <kmc> biased or not, such articles can still make you aware of cool features that make the language worth learning
18:52:15 <kmc> note also, worth learning != worth using
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18:52:27 <mroman> They provide an insight, yes.
18:52:30 <mroman> Agreed.
18:52:40 <AnotherTest> Let's write a "Why you should learn brainfuck"
18:52:56 <nortti> yes!
18:53:03 <fizzie> A "why you should make a brainfuck derivative" article is what the wiki is missing.
18:53:05 <mroman> But when it comes to languages I'm more interested in knowing where they are bad at.
18:53:17 <kmc> that's also different from "reasons not to learn it"
18:53:23 <kmc> you are being very sloppy with language
18:53:43 <AnotherTest> learning a new (programming) language is generally not a bad idea I think
18:53:56 <kmc> people focus too much on languages, anyway
18:54:09 <kmc> i think most interesting "Why you should learn $X" articles will not be about languages
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18:54:15 <nortti> should I really leaen cobol?
18:54:21 <mroman> kmc: Agreed @focus too much on languages
18:54:31 <kmc> i'd rather read "Why you should learn <interesting library>" instead of "Why you should learn <my favorite slight variant on perl/python/ruby/php/javascript>"
18:54:52 <shachaf> I heard d3.js was an interesting library.
18:55:00 <fizzie> I heard that too.
18:55:04 <subleq> i heard that too
18:55:10 <subleq> i can't figure out how to use it though
18:55:16 <fizzie> Or perhaps I just looked at some examples and thought that it looked interesting.
18:55:22 <AnotherTest> I heard boost::spirit was interesting
18:55:34 <AnotherTest> it took me 30 minutes to compile the first example though
18:55:37 <mroman> I haven't heard a damn thing .
18:55:42 <AnotherTest> oh and the second one didn't work
18:55:57 <AnotherTest> so I didn't try the third one
18:57:07 <kmc> boost::spirit is interesting but don't try to use it for actual work
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18:57:14 <kmc> "just like C++, or Haskell"
18:57:32 <kmc> http://mbostock.github.com/d3/talk/20111116/airports.html
18:57:38 <AnotherTest> kmc: I actually used boost::spirit::classic(yay!) for X.so
18:57:50 <AnotherTest> kmc: well, that's esoteric work I guess
18:57:52 <shachaf> Ah, boost::spirit
18:58:05 <AnotherTest> the classic version is actually nice
18:58:09 <AnotherTest> but v2 is not
18:59:02 <AnotherTest> bye
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19:20:10 <zzo38> My hardware NSF design fills up the $4018-$403F area exactly with no bytes left over.
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19:46:08 <zzo38> Learn COBOL if you want to learn Common Business Oriented Language.
19:46:30 <nortti> NSF?
19:47:09 <shachaf> zzo38 is talking about the National Science Foundation, of course.
19:47:09 <Sgeo> Learn COBOL if you love using global variables for everything.
19:47:17 <atriq> Something to do with the NES, I believe, nortti
19:47:23 <zzo38> nortti: NES/Famicom music files.
19:47:44 <Sgeo> Hmm "The COBOL 2002 standard includes support for object-oriented programming and other modern language features.[1]
19:47:45 <Sgeo> "
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19:50:42 <zzo38> However the interrupt routine uses 30 clock cycles and I am unsure if this can be reduced, or how many clock cycles other hardware NSF players use, etc
19:51:12 <atriq> Oh no, I've got a Wolfram Alpha account now
19:51:28 <fizzie> atriq: I heard you can use it to dig into your Facebook.
19:51:42 <atriq> That is the PRECISE reason I'm making an account
19:52:28 <Sgeo> Hmm, I might be wrong
19:53:17 <fizzie> Sgeo: Inconceivable.
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20:04:26 <Sgeo> On my friends network I have 4 clusters of 2 people
20:06:21 <itidus21> therefore S would be for Sound
20:06:39 <atriq> I have a completely separate cluster of 8 people
20:07:13 <atriq> And I'm fairly sure Gregor is in a cluster unto himself
20:07:25 <itidus21> also if Nintendo changed their name to NES Corporation, the acronym would hold as NES Entertainment System Sound Files
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20:08:29 <itidus21> like KFC Fried Chicken
20:08:37 -!- nortti has joined.
20:10:38 <kmc> http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/15/nyregion/chicken-little.html
20:13:27 <itidus21> sometimes i feel inauthentic when thanking people, especially bus drivers
20:13:55 <nortti> why?
20:14:16 <itidus21> i think because i figure i would say it anyway even if i wasn't thankful
20:14:27 <itidus21> like it was a rule
20:15:14 <fizzie> I don't thank bus drivers. :/
20:15:15 <nortti> oh. misread inauthetic as nausetic
20:15:24 <fizzie> It's kind of rare here.
20:15:29 <itidus21> ahhh
20:15:33 <fizzie> Well, except when buying a ticket.
20:16:00 <fizzie> But not when just beeping the card at the machine.
20:16:11 <fizzie> Some people say "thanks" when exiting the bus, but that's like less than 10% I'd say.
20:16:17 <itidus21> oh well i mean when getting off the bus. yeah
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20:17:15 <itidus21> the fact that i dwell on such things is probably cause for concern
20:17:24 <fizzie> Usually the driver's all the way in front, and our bus conventions call from exit through the middle or the back door, so it'd need quite a loud "thanks", and that just feels out-of-place.
20:18:58 <fizzie> Finns are known to be really impolite, though.
20:19:10 <itidus21> hmm i think what actually happens is
20:19:22 <itidus21> the politeness information is probably just expressed by other means
20:20:07 <itidus21> maybe thats being deluded of me though
20:20:09 <itidus21> :P
20:22:56 <impomatic> I say thanks to the driver... Unless they're a jerk!
20:23:16 <impomatic> "You can't drink that on the bus, company policy" (soft drink / water)
20:23:20 <itidus21> i guess the fact that some drivers are jerks reminds you they're human
20:24:26 <fizzie> Well. I don't know if it's expressed at all. But I suppose it's a cultural thing and not the kind of thing that we'd be inherently more rude in a thinks-less-of-others sense. I don't think bus drivers expect to be thanked (when getting off) here, either, since it's not a Thing That Is Done.
20:25:39 <itidus21> yeah..... if i was more normal.. i wouldn't have made this a topic
20:25:59 <itidus21> so my views are not representative of normal
20:27:02 <fizzie> And there's no direct translation of "please" when you're ordering/asking for something, though you can sort of optionally use the thanking word as a suffix there.
20:28:05 <fizzie> But it's not especially rude to just say what it is that you're e.g. buying, without any extra frills.
20:30:39 <fizzie> "This is not a day of national mourning in Helsinki, this is Finns in their natural state: brooding, private, grimly in touch with no one but themselves."
20:31:05 <fizzie> So began a "60 minutes" US TV program, talking about how tango has landed to Finland.
20:31:13 <fizzie> It caused a bit of a stir.
20:31:22 <fizzie> (This was in 1992 or something.)
20:31:41 <fizzie> (I heard the sentence, sampled, in some piece of music somewhat recently.)
20:32:42 <itidus21> well, USA should begin by getting a proper name for the nation
20:33:15 <fizzie> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhxZoV3t61c -- it's... kind of disparaging.
20:33:26 <kmc> in NYC there are signs in buses and trains reminding you that assaulting the driver will get you 7 years in prison
20:34:07 <itidus21> somehow those signs never get seen on tv :D
20:34:17 <kmc> they are pretty small
20:34:41 <kmc> Linux's seccomp now lets you give a fine-grained specification of which system calls are allowed
20:34:46 <kmc> using... a Berkeley Packet Filter program
20:35:18 <fizzie> The metropolitan area transportation conglomerate recently introduced a rule that all buses need to have this strong-glass pane that goes up to the ceiling in-between the driver and the passengers.
20:35:23 <fizzie> To cut down on... problems.
20:35:36 <itidus21> i think its interesting that people refer to USA as either US or A or USA
20:36:04 <itidus21> "the states" is a fun one
20:36:16 <atriq> Nobody calls it U
20:36:19 <atriq> Because it isn't
20:36:53 <kmc> The Great Satan
20:37:16 <itidus21> i suppose occasionally some might call it north america
20:37:26 <kmc> there are other countries in north america...
20:37:36 <itidus21> yeah, but theres even more countries in america :D
20:37:43 <fizzie> kmc: What, isn't Canada just some kind of a part of USA?
20:38:06 <fizzie> America's hat, or what do they say.
20:38:11 <kmc> well once Barack Obama and the UN finish their conspiracy to create a united North American government with a single currency, the Amero
20:38:20 <kmc> cause there's nothing the US wants more than to be in a currency union with Mexico
20:38:44 <itidus21> it's as if the sudanese referred to sudan as africa
20:38:52 <fizzie> Though I did see someone calling USA "Canada's underpants".
20:39:02 <kmc> itidus21: heh, yes
20:39:15 <itidus21> maybe im missing the point though... its easy in australia where the nation is literally a continent
20:39:25 <itidus21> its the easiest possible naming system
20:39:36 <kmc> the Roman province of Africa was only a bit of Tunisia and Libya
20:39:51 <itidus21> this? this is the state of south australia, in the nation australia, in the continent australia
20:40:13 <kmc> the words "state" and "nation" are super ambiguous too
20:40:15 <kmc> while we're at it
20:40:37 <itidus21> next to it is the state of western australia... and to the north is the northern territory territory of the nation of australia in the continent australia
20:41:27 <itidus21> and in the middle of new south wales is a usefully named territory called the australian capital territory which unsurprisingly is where canberra is
20:41:38 <atriq> itidus21, what about New Zeeland and Papua New Guinea?
20:41:53 <itidus21> oh i forgot
20:41:55 <itidus21> crud
20:41:58 <itidus21> they are in oceania
20:42:08 <itidus21> i don't know what oceania is
20:42:39 <nortti> it is 1 of 3 countries of the worl: oceania, eurasia and eastasia
20:42:45 <nortti> *world
20:42:52 <itidus21> so close....
20:43:03 <itidus21> my name utopia is crumbling
20:43:11 <nortti> ?
20:43:52 <itidus21> reading the first paragraph makes it clear that its pointless to discretely define oceania http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oceania
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20:51:59 <impomatic> Aren't we at war with Eastasia?
20:52:04 <impomatic> Or is it Eurasia?
20:52:31 <nortti> eastasia. you have always been in war with eastasia
20:52:40 <nortti> hi from eurasua
20:52:47 <nortti> *eurasia
20:54:15 <itidus21> i suppose they just make up these words as they go
20:55:06 <itidus21> basically sets of nations which aren't constrained by being a landmass
20:56:11 <itidus21> but, they probably enjoy the ambiguity by using a name rather than actually specifying a set
20:57:09 <itidus21> maybe so that noone knows what they're talking about
20:58:25 <itidus21> "we are at war with eurasia" "...does that mean?" "no, don't worry you're not part of eurasia (fingers crossed behind back)"
20:58:54 <itidus21> ok well.. maybe the fingers don't have to be crossed
21:00:48 <impomatic> We're allied with Eurasia :-)
21:01:21 <nortti> and you have always been
21:01:39 <itidus21> i was thinking about "present company excluded" yesterday, this seems relevant
21:04:12 <itidus21> "all men and women are holding this country back, present company excluded"
21:05:44 <Phantom__Hoover> Urgh, I had to listen to the elaborately-synchronised orchestration to the end-of-Fringe fireworks on a 15 second delay because the local radio station's stream had such high latency.
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21:13:41 <Sgeo> Phantom__Hoover, except for the divorce, and another plot hole, I kind of liked the Doctor Who episode
21:14:08 <Phantom__Hoover> eggs
21:14:10 <Phantom__Hoover> term
21:14:11 <Phantom__Hoover> in
21:14:12 <Phantom__Hoover> ate
21:16:19 <Sgeo> In Clojure there's some sort of discussion about the Eclipse Public License
21:16:35 <Sgeo> How it's not GPL-compatible because it protects freedoms better, supposedly?
21:16:56 <impomatic> Sgeo: what plot hole?
21:17:06 <Sgeo> "The EPL, however, requires that anyone distributing the work grant every recipient a license to any patents that they might hold that cover the modifications they have made. Because this is a "further restriction" on the recipients, distribution of such a combined work does not satisfy the GPL.["
21:17:20 <Sgeo> impomatic, why would the switch to the forcefield be inside the asylum?
21:17:28 <Sgeo> That seems unwise
21:18:26 <impomatic> I've only just seen it. We had a power cut from 7:10 to 8:30 last night. Then iPlayer wouldn't work. It's almost as they everything conspired to stop me watching...
21:18:51 <Sgeo> g2g
21:19:26 <mroman> Sounds great @EPL.
21:23:33 * kmc is hacking in front of huge monitors, drinking mountain dew and listening to infected mushroom
21:23:36 <kmc> i'm such a cliche
21:30:29 <itidus21> sometimes in the late hours i think about the passing of pets and family. and the social, financial and mental problems which cause regrets of how the time was spent compared to how it could have been spent
21:30:30 <fizzie> Drinking some infected mushrooms and listening to Mountain Dew.
21:30:45 <itidus21> and then i spend 15minutes with an actual human, and think, damn humans really shit me
21:32:37 <kmc> that sounds uncomfortable for both of you
21:33:08 <zzo38> I thought GPL already requires a patent license?
21:35:25 <itidus21> kmc: well i think some of my regrets are caused by idealized memories of people
21:36:12 <fizzie> The local possibly-largest computer hardware (and other stuff) e-tailer sells nowadays these "rare american" soft drinks etc. (like cherry cola and coke in aluminum bottle-shaped imperial-units containers and Snapple and whatever) because obviously people drinking that stuff are more "authentic".
21:36:16 <itidus21> a regret such as "how come i wasnt nice to that guy?" .. then the realization "he raised my blood pressure when he started talking"
21:36:20 <itidus21> just a hypothetical
21:36:26 <fizzie> They also sell that Gamer Grub stuff.
21:37:49 <kmc> http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2007/02/19
21:38:29 <fizzie> I think they had a couple others on the same theme.
21:38:41 <Arc_Koen> itidus21: was his voice too high-pitched or something? I wonder how many decibels are needed to get one's blood boiling
21:39:38 <itidus21> Arc_Koen: its easy to forget what annoying means when around _relatively_ unannoying people
21:39:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, heh XD
21:40:45 <Arc_Koen> itidus21: sometimes I forget what annoying means when around an annoying person who's particularly less annoying than usual
21:40:57 <Vorpal> Arc_Koen, hm could you actually cook stuff with sound?
21:41:31 <Vorpal> I guess you could in theory
21:41:35 <Vorpal> practically though?
21:41:37 <Arc_Koen> science will answer to that question but she's busy at the moment
21:42:40 <itidus21> Vorpal: so this device would be soundproof, and have a heck of a lot of noise inside?
21:42:43 <Arc_Koen> I guess this could figure as an xkcd's "What if we used sonar cookers instead of solar cookers"
21:43:36 <Vorpal> Arc_Koen, indeed
21:43:44 <Vorpal> Arc_Koen, have they done that?
21:44:00 <Vorpal> itidus21, why does it need to be sound proof? Who cares about side effects :P
21:44:04 <Arc_Koen> maybe have a way to concentrate the sound... "loud amplification by stimulated emission of resonance"
21:44:38 <itidus21> one form of annoying sound is eating with mouth open
21:44:47 <Arc_Koen> Vorpal: well, I'm guessing if we can have such a silly idea, there's a good chance someone has had it before
21:44:54 <fizzie> Vorpal: I think there are some ultrasonic heating based things.
21:44:55 <itidus21> the effects are mitigated if you yourself are eating with mouth open
21:45:03 <itidus21> in a hearty way
21:45:19 <Vorpal> how can you eat with mouth open?
21:45:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, heh, really? that is awesome
21:45:29 <Vorpal> got a source for that claim though?
21:45:40 <itidus21> Vorpal: well the chewing after putting the food in your mouth
21:46:08 <Vorpal> itidus21, it would fall out...
21:46:10 <Vorpal> wouldn't work
21:46:22 <Vorpal> unless it is sticky like some sweets
21:46:42 <itidus21> to make it worse the food is inside a paper bag which is inside a plastic bag
21:46:57 <fizzie> Vorpal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultrasound "Ultrasonic welding"
21:47:22 <fizzie> Also some other things based on ultrasound-induced cavitation. (Which releases heat.)
21:47:37 <Vorpal> heh
21:48:05 <fizzie> The welding thing is a bit far from first connotations of "sound" though.
21:48:57 <itidus21> ok so loud noises are not so good for cooking
21:49:43 <fizzie> Didn't see anything that'd really be based on pressure waves in air (cavitation happens in liquids); I'm sure you can get *some* heat energy somewhere, but it doesn't sound exactly practical.
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21:51:58 <itidus21> someone has made a patent for ultrasonic cooking apparatus
21:53:18 <nortti> is there anything patentable that is not patented?
21:53:55 <Arc_Koen> fizzie: oh it does sound... maybe not practical though
21:54:04 <fizzie> nortti: People keep patenting new things, so if we take as granted that all the granted patents are for novel inventions (ha!), sure.
21:55:12 <itidus21> it keeps corporations busy :D
21:55:17 <itidus21> and lawyers
21:59:11 <zzo38> Whatever I make, I don't patent. This way it saves money.
21:59:39 <itidus21> they keep maintaining the pretense that the modern patent system has anything to do with invention, or protecting IP
22:02:24 <itidus21> to begin with, its a form of protection you have to pay for...
22:02:52 <itidus21> which is kind of strange compared to most laws about protection
22:05:32 <itidus21> like you don't have to apply to an agency and pay in advance for legal protection for your body from being beaten up
22:05:43 -!- oklofok has joined.
22:05:58 <itidus21> for some reason, you just get legal rights for free when it comes to being beaten up
22:08:01 <itidus21> so my question is what-if patents were free?
22:08:13 <zzo38> Maybe next time you get beaten up, you should tell them that you did not pay for legal protection
22:08:22 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
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22:08:33 -!- oklopol has joined.
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22:09:49 <itidus21> zzo38: i am good at getting through life without fights, but part of that is luck
22:19:08 <oerjan> <spirity> I worship the god Eris <-- *godess hth
22:19:15 <oerjan> oops *goddess
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22:41:28 -!- oerjan has changed nick to oerjan_.
22:41:32 <oerjan_> hm
22:41:35 -!- oerjan_ has changed nick to oerjan.
22:41:52 <oerjan> OKAY
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22:54:12 <kmc> i worship the goatass eris
22:54:27 <oerjan> OKAY
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23:00:46 <kmc> in C, is there a better way to write while (1) { if (foo) continue; ...; if (bar) continue; ...; if (baz) continue; ...; return x; }
23:00:49 <kmc> other than goto
23:01:27 <shachaf> What's bad about that?
23:01:49 <kmc> nothing's especially bad about it; I am just wondering if there's a better way
23:01:56 <shachaf> Oh, I see. It's more of an if+goto than a loop.
23:01:58 <kmc> it seems kind of silly to have a loop which only runs all the way through once
23:02:08 <shachaf> Right.
23:02:28 <kmc> the loop receives packets and i want to return the first one which passes a series of criteria
23:02:42 <kmc> which are too complicated to be expressed nicely in a single boolean expression
23:02:55 <shachaf> Even if you put them all in different functions or something?
23:03:05 <kmc> that would be too much code
23:03:45 <zzo38> Can you use the ?: operator?
23:04:40 <kmc> not nicely
23:05:35 -!- shachaf has changed nick to SHACHAF.
23:07:15 <zzo38> Can you use macros?
23:07:22 * SHACHAF is a macro
23:07:29 <kmc> not nicely
23:07:57 <SHACHAF> I think separating your predicates out into their own functions is vaguely nice.
23:08:02 <SHACHAF> Maybe you can use nested functions in GCC!
23:10:00 <kmc> socket(2) is a weird syscall
23:10:23 <kmc> why shouldn't it be open("/dev/net/inet/tcp", ...)
23:11:26 <SHACHAF> Isn't that what it is in Plan 9?
23:11:52 <kmc> probably
23:12:31 <SHACHAF> Networking was kind of hacked onto Unix, I understand.
23:13:18 <kmc> "you don't say"
23:13:29 <kmc> UNIX was kind of hacked onto Space Travel
23:13:36 <SHACHAF> The socket API (in particular parts of it, like sending fds over sockets and all that) is kind of terrible. :-(
23:13:52 <kmc> yeah i feel like there should be an achievement badge for that
23:13:55 <kmc> "sent a fd over a socket"
23:15:34 <SHACHAF> What about "did it in order to do something useful"?
23:15:52 <SHACHAF> I think they did that at RDB at one point.
23:15:58 <kmc> "does exploiting CVE-2012-0056 count as something useful"
23:16:16 <oerjan> kmc: while (!foo) { ...; if (!bar) { ...; if (!baz) { ...; return x; } } } /* YOU CAN THANK ME LATER */
23:16:54 <SHACHAF> The C idiom of flattening things out is actually nice.
23:17:10 <SHACHAF> I mean things like void foo() { if (!x) return; ... }
23:17:39 <pikhq> kmc: Surely it'd be more like open("/dev/net/inet/tcp/hostname/port") :)
23:18:20 <kmc> yeah
23:18:27 <kmc> that would replace some other syscalls too
23:19:59 <SHACHAF> bash has that.
23:20:09 <pikhq> SHACHAF: Yeah, but it's not on the C level.
23:20:26 <SHACHAF> Yes.
23:26:05 <SHACHAF> kmc: Did you know lexande_ has been to the place I lived in in WA?
23:29:54 <kmc> no
23:31:42 <kmc> huh, just discovered a weird quirk in C99
23:31:52 <kmc> you can put declarations anywhere, but you still can't put a label on one
23:32:56 <SHACHAF> Hmm, so you might have statements that you can't goto?
23:33:04 <kmc> well, they're not statements, they're declarations ;)
23:33:14 <kmc> even though they can appear anywhere and can have arbitrary code as initializers
23:33:14 <SHACHAF> Expressions.
23:34:13 -!- ais523 has quit.
23:34:55 <zzo38> The macros in C are often not powerful enough
23:35:57 <pikhq> kmc: foo: ; fixes that. :)
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23:39:44 <kmc> heh, good point
23:43:04 <SHACHAF> Oh, that's a good label syntax.
23:43:06 <SHACHAF> foo:;
23:43:17 <kmc> it so looks like a typo
23:45:07 <SHACHAF> <GUIL> Now mind your tongue, or we'll have it out and throw the rest of you away, like a nightingale at a Roman feast. <ROS> Took the very words out of my mouth. <GUIL> You'd be lost for words. <ROS> You'd be tongue-tied. <GUIL> Like a mute in a monologue. <ROS> Like a nightingale at a Roman feast. <GUIL> Your diction will go to pieces. <ROS> Your lines will be cut. <GUIL> To dumbshows. <ROS> And dramatic pauses. <GUIL> You'll never find your tongu
23:45:48 <ion> Ah. foo: ; } is a way to get a label to the end of a function. :-)
23:46:12 <SHACHAF> foo: ;)
23:46:18 <SHACHAF> Er.
23:46:20 <SHACHAF> foo: ;}
23:46:24 <oerjan> SHACHAF: never find your tongu
23:46:38 <SHACHAF> <GUIL> You'll never find your tongue. <ROS> Lick your lips. <GUIL> Taste your tears. <ROS> Your breakfast. <GUIL> You won't know the difference. <ROS> There won't be any. <GUIL> We'll take the very words out of your mouth. <ROS> So you've caught on. <GUIL> So you've caught up.
23:46:50 <ion> shachaf: y u no use splitlong.pl? It comes with your client of choice.
23:46:56 <SHACHAF> ion: Sounds like work.
23:47:08 <SHACHAF> Why do I need it when I have oerjan?
23:47:16 <oerjan> PRECISELY
23:47:41 * oerjan proceeds to tie SHACHAF's shoe laces for him
23:47:42 <SHACHAF> ørjan is very useføl
23:47:45 <ion> (mkdir -pv ~/.irssi/scripts && cd ~/.irssi/scripts && ln -s . autorun && ln -s /usr/share/irssi/scripts/splitlong.pl .) and /script load splitlong
23:48:09 <SHACHAF> whoa, dude, it's actually pre-installed!
23:50:55 <SHACHAF> ion: Why not just make an "autorun" directory?
23:51:28 <ion> I’m not sure /script load looks into autorun.
23:51:41 <SHACHAF> Oh, so one is for now and one is for next run?
23:51:58 <SHACHAF> 16:51 -!- Irssi: Loaded script splitlong
23:52:10 <SHACHAF> 16:45 <SHACHAF> <GUIL> Now mind your tongue, or we'll have it out and throw the rest of you away, like a nightingale at a Roman feast. <ROS> Took the very words out of my mouth. <GUIL> You'd be lost for words. <ROS> You'd be tongue-tied. <GUIL> Like a mute in a monologue. <ROS> Like a nightingale at a Roman feast. <GUIL> Your diction will go to pieces. <ROS> Your lines will be cut. <GUIL> To
23:52:16 <SHACHAF> dmb shows. <ROS> And dramatic pauses. <GUIL> You'll never find your tongue. <ROS> Lick your lips. <GUIL> Taste your tears. <ROS> Your breakfast. <GUIL> You won't know the difference. <ROS> There won't be any. <GUIL> We'll take the very words out of your mouth. <ROS> So you've caught on. <GUIL> So you've caught up.
23:52:21 <SHACHAF> Does that really say "dmb shows"?
23:52:29 <SHACHAF> splitlong.pl is awful. :-(
23:52:39 <oerjan> let's see whether this works properly and all according to specification like it very well absolutely and definitely should for sure, am i right of course i am you dolts just testing and HI's not a ctcp SHACHAF, try something that actually exists instead and maybe you might get an answer but only if i feel like it OKAY? have a good day and did this get long enough...
23:52:46 <oerjan> i think that's a no.
23:52:58 <SHACHAF> oerjan: HI is totally a CTCP
23:53:00 <SHACHAF> Want proof?
23:53:02 <oerjan> NOWAI
23:54:03 <oerjan> how does one send replies anyway?
23:54:44 <oerjan> also, aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa ...
23:54:44 <SHACHAF> /ctcp shachaf REPLY HELLO
23:54:49 <oerjan> ... aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaasbestos
23:56:00 <SHACHAF> oerjan: Sorry for lying. :-(
23:56:04 <SHACHAF> It's actually /nctcp
23:59:28 <ion> shachaf: Huh. splitlong never resulted in anything like the “dmb shows” thing when i used irssi.
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01:04:10 <kmc> NAND flash chips are binned by cycles before failure
01:04:15 <kmc> i wonder how they test that on a brand new chip
01:05:28 <SHACHAF> kmc: http://picayune.uclick.com/comics/ch/1986/ch861126.gif
01:05:42 <kmc> :)
01:06:32 <SHACHAF> You haven't hated on XKCD in, like, ages, man.
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01:13:44 <kmc> none of the recent ones have been remarkably bad
01:13:53 <kmc> they're just dumb in ways we have seen many times before
01:13:59 <SHACHAF> Ah.
01:14:06 <SHACHAF> It's not even interesting enough to mock now?
01:14:16 <SHACHAF> "the ultimate in mediocrity", reports area man
01:14:16 <kmc> correct
01:14:24 <kmc> plus i'm trying to be less negative, as a person
01:14:33 <SHACHAF> Oh.
01:14:35 <kmc> i think my opinion of xkcd is well-known here by this point
01:14:44 <kmc> there's no point repeating it, if i'm not adding new information
01:14:52 <kmc> i have been enjoying what-if.xkcd.com though
01:15:22 <SHACHAF> What should I put in an RSS feed for someone's birthday?
01:15:25 <kmc> ?
01:16:08 <SHACHAF> I guess I can put "Happy Birthday" in it.
01:16:26 <oerjan> "What are you still alive?"
01:16:36 <kmc> you're... giving them an RSS feed?
01:16:49 <oerjan> very chic
01:16:53 <SHACHAF> I run a couple of RSS feeds that my father subscribes to.
01:17:08 <SHACHAF> Perhaps I'll put a birthday thing in one of them.
01:17:18 <SHACHAF> These are RSS feeds for web comics.
01:17:19 <kmc> clever
01:17:27 <zzo38> Are you going to change your name to Fire Void?
01:18:01 <kmc> this SSD has dropped in price 50% since February
01:18:51 <SHACHAF> How much does it cost now?
01:19:00 <SHACHAF> Maybe I should get an SSD.
01:19:13 <kmc> Intel 520 240GB, $230 at Newegg
01:19:32 <SHACHAF> Maybe I should get a big external hard drive and do backups.
01:19:35 * SHACHAF has no backups.
01:19:36 <kmc> by all reports, one of the best SSDs
01:19:39 <kmc> yikes
01:19:45 <kmc> maybe i should do off-site backups
01:19:55 <SHACHAF> I have $50 of Tarsnap credit.
01:20:34 <zzo38> I wrote a program to combine multiple .NSF into one .NSF file, although there are some restrictions, such as the input cannot use any expansion chips other than MMC5 and Namco 163, and the output will use the Famicom Disk System expansion in addition to the ones used on the input.
01:38:06 <zzo38> I want to invent backgammon card.
01:53:21 -!- Gregor has set topic: Official channel of PEZ | PEZ is the best candy. Why have you abandoned PEZ? | Do not fret, PEZ can forgive you. Give yourself freely to PEZ. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/wiki.
01:54:31 <oerjan> i shall assume this was simple substitution applied to a text containing the phrase "Jesus is the best candy."
01:55:22 <Gregor> 'fraid not ;)
01:55:26 <Gregor> I was just eating PEZ.
01:55:42 <oerjan> YOU ATE JESUS? YOU BASTARD!
01:55:58 <zzo38> oerjan: Doesn't everyone?
01:56:13 <oerjan> oh right, that communion thingy
01:56:19 <oerjan> never been do it
01:56:21 <oerjan> *to
01:56:56 <Gregor> In the new, hip Catholic church, they use Charleston Chews instead of crackers.
01:58:10 <zzo38> Don't you know that canon law forbids them to do that? (Well, they already violate canon law by not having a pipe organ, so...)
01:58:26 <oerjan> sounds good, although i shall assume it's sickly over-sweet per my american candy stereotypes
01:58:44 <oerjan> pipe organs are mandatory?
01:59:00 <kmc> cannon law trumps canon law
01:59:03 <zzo38> Yes, although many churches do not have it anyways.
01:59:10 <oerjan> i'd have thought they were quite hard to get by around jesus' time
01:59:24 <Gregor> oerjan: It's nougat and chocolate. It's actually one of the least sweet American candies, I'd say.
01:59:33 <Gregor> Mass-produced, that is.
01:59:35 <zzo38> Yes that is true; but it is not Jesus' time today!
01:59:51 <oerjan> but but surely canon law is eternal!
02:00:05 <zzo38> Well, actually they do sometimes change it.
02:00:07 * oerjan is supposedly lutheran protestant, anyway
02:00:13 * Gregor points cannon.
02:00:21 <Gregor> oerjan: I think you mean, CANNON law is eternal.
02:00:23 * Gregor agrees with kmc.
02:01:00 <SHACHAF> kmc: Why aren't you in #cslounge-trains?
02:01:06 <oerjan> incidentally, {en:canon, en:cannon} = {no:cannon}
02:01:10 <oerjan> er
02:01:11 <oerjan> dammit
02:01:16 <oerjan> incidentally, {en:canon, en:cannon} = {no:kanon}
02:01:24 <Gregor> Hah
02:03:43 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pipe_organ contains no mention of "canon" or "law"
02:04:06 <Arc_Koen> is it common to demonstrate an esolang's Turing-completeness by writing a Turing machine?
02:04:33 <zzo38> Arc_Koen: Look at the wiki you can see which ways are more common.
02:04:44 * oerjan shall assume zzo38 belongs to The Holy Catholic Communion of Righteous Canadian Pipe-Organ Appliers
02:05:36 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: i have done it (e.g. some of the fragment proofs for Underload), but whether it's the simplest way depends a lot on the esolang
02:06:04 <Arc_Koen> hmmm wait I was thinking "write a turing-machine that interprets the language" but that doesn't prove anything
02:06:26 <oerjan> basically you want to choose something that has already been proved TC, and which is easy to interpret in your language
02:06:34 <Arc_Koen> yes
02:07:13 <oerjan> which can be turing machines, but other nice possibilities are lambda calculus, ski calculus, underload, bitwise cyclic tag...
02:07:14 <Arc_Koen> so when I said "by writing a Turing machine" and you answered you had done it you meant you have written an interpreter for a turing machine in a esolang?
02:08:18 <oerjan> what i actually did was make a general procedure for translating a turing machine into an underload program containing only ~:()^ commands (iirc)
02:08:39 <oerjan> oh, also minsky machines, which i needed to get rid of the ~.
02:09:28 <Arc_Koen> also I'm confused - I always thought that "being Turing-complete" was a formal way to describe what we'd thought of as "can do anything" but apparently you don't need input/output to be turing-complete, which is a bit weird since basically I am the kind of person who'd think that any programs that does not give a result is equivalent to the null program
02:09:47 <oerjan> for example for fueue underload was a very good fit, since it had very similar pieces even if they worked bizarrely differently
02:11:07 <coppro> Arc_Koen: nope
02:11:22 <coppro> Arc_Koen: Turing-completeness is usually defined by accept/reject
02:11:32 <coppro> well, Turing machines are
02:11:33 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: we have this sort of "I/O-complete" or "brainfuck-complete" idea floating around in our community for when you want to consider I/O.
02:11:36 <Arc_Koen> (a program that does not give output would be like a machine inside a black box - it may be working hard and compute a lot of stuff, but from the outside it's no more than a black box)
02:11:52 <oerjan> coppro: i _do_ like to allow more than single-bit output if possible :P
02:12:06 <coppro> oerjan: but single bit is all that is strictly necessary from a computation perspective
02:12:55 <coppro> the two are almost exactly equivalent
02:13:16 <coppro> I think they are equivalent but I'm tired
02:13:22 <coppro> I do agree, I prefer programs that can do I/O
02:14:06 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: well the thing is that you need some notion of inital setup, and final result; these include _both_ the program itself and ordinary i/o, but apply to many more general systems that don't have i/o. e.g. pure lambda calculus has only a concept of reduction to something like a normal or weakly normal result which is still a lambda expression
02:15:06 <oerjan> so the initial setup is the lambda expression you start with, encoding what you want to compute, and the result is the reduced (weakly or strongly) normal form
02:15:31 <Arc_Koen> ok so you're considering the final state of the machine as the output?
02:15:37 <oerjan> yep
02:15:38 <Arc_Koen> that works for me
02:16:10 <oerjan> for a turing machine that's the usual way, also including the final tape if you want more than accept/reject
02:19:18 <oerjan> i recall the Bitwise Cyclic Tag page suggests you want to include all the deleted bits as output
02:19:46 <coppro> Arc_Koen: see the busy beaver function
02:20:03 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: oh also brainfuck is rather popular to interpret, for brainfuck derivatives that's often the simplest way of proving TC-ness
02:20:35 <kmc> you can also write a thing that compiles brainfuck to your language
02:20:40 <kmc> as long as you can prove the compiler always works
02:20:51 <oerjan> right, actually i meant compiling
02:21:34 <SHACHAF> Writing a compiler for a TC language *in* your language isn't sufficient, though. :-)
02:21:44 <kmc> sure
02:21:46 <oerjan> indeed not.
02:21:52 * kmc writes a C to C compiler in 'cat'
02:22:21 <oerjan> and it's not necessarily for the compiler to be written in your language either
02:22:27 <SHACHAF> kmc: Oh? What's the text of your cat program?
02:22:29 <oerjan> only to have it as target
02:22:32 <SHACHAF> I can only ever manage to write quines.
02:22:36 <kmc> :)
02:23:00 <oerjan> *necessary
02:23:09 <SHACHAF> Is Malbolge the best esolang?
02:23:22 <Arc_Koen> well thank you guys that was certainly enlightening
02:23:22 <oerjan> well it's not TC...
02:23:35 <Arc_Koen> good night
02:23:40 <oerjan> good night
02:23:43 <SHACHAF> oerjan: Well, neither is ISO C.
02:23:47 -!- Arc_Koen has quit (Quit: Are you telling me you can build a time machine but you can't cook a cheese soufflé? You've got your priorities all wrong!).
02:24:11 <oerjan> SHACHAF: clearly Malbolge Unshackled is the best, then.
02:24:22 <kmc> malbolge shrugged
02:27:20 * oerjan is saying this mainly in the hope of some day finding someone willing to try programming it
02:27:54 <oerjan> a TC proof would be nice too, i guess.
02:30:48 <oerjan> i guess it might help _slightly_ if i actually updated it to compile in ghc
02:37:41 <oerjan> !c printf("Today's strip is brought to you by the number %lX.\n", 184594917);
02:37:43 <EgoBot> Today's strip is brought to you by the number B00B1E5.
02:37:48 <oerjan> ic.
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02:56:11 <kmc> #define HV_LINUX_GUEST_ID_HI 0xB16B00B5
02:57:05 <SHACHAF> The hex constant chosen for HV_LINUX_GUEST_ID_HI was offensive, update to use
02:57:06 <SHACHAF> the decimal equivalent instead.
02:57:28 -!- kinoSi has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
02:57:56 -!- kinoSi has joined.
02:59:09 <oerjan> > 0xB16B00B5
02:59:10 <lambdabot> 2976579765
03:21:52 <SHACHAF> HI ION
03:22:46 <ion> I DON’T HAVE A CAPS LOCK. :-(
03:23:34 <SHACHAF> ion: /nick ION
03:23:41 <ion> IT’S NOT CAPS LOCK DAY YET.
03:27:43 <kmc> 192.168.1.NaN
03:28:01 <SHACHAF> Oh, floating point IPs!
03:28:02 <SHACHAF> That's perfect.
03:28:15 * SHACHAF wonders what the exponent would represent.
03:28:55 <ion> kmc: PHP?
03:29:38 <kmc> beats me
03:29:46 <kmc> got this on the admin interface of a wireless router
03:31:29 <kmc> brb
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03:46:29 <zzo38> Please help me with the RogueVM document
03:50:02 <zzo38> How easy would static analysis of 6502 machine codes in a .NSF file be?
03:50:19 <SHACHAF> That depends on what you want to analyze.
03:52:01 <zzo38> To figure out what RAM is used, to figure out bankswitching is used, and to decompile it and recompile it at a different address.
03:53:20 <zzo38> Some things are known not to be used.
03:56:23 <zzo38> Recompiling at a different address may not be needed if you can simply know which ROM/RAM is free, and what it uses to do bankswitching.
04:04:03 <SHACHAF> ion: splitlong just did it again!
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04:27:52 <zzo38> madbr: Are you someone making .NSF musics? (I fail to remember exactly)
04:28:12 <kmc> "Distance / ACK Timing: Sets the approximate maximum distance in meters from which clients can connect. May be useful in preventing distant "cantenna leeches" from connecting."
04:28:43 <pikhq> kmc: That seems likely to break.
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04:28:58 <zzo38> kmc: O, that is what it does? Can they set the power for distance?
04:29:15 <kmc> what do you mean?
04:29:29 <zzo38> I recall reading somewhere that they could not send an email message more than 500 miles away, due to speed of light and time limits set in the configuration.
04:29:35 <madbr> zzo38: yeah I do songs for famicompos
04:29:45 <madbr> using it to nsf converters
04:30:06 <zzo38> madbr: I have written a program to combine multiple .NSFs into one .NSF although there are some restrictions.
04:30:50 <zzo38> You can see my .NSFs at http://2a03.free.fr/?p=pub&dir=zzo38
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04:31:20 <zzo38> Please tell me if you like any of these musics?
04:31:38 <zzo38> Have you made any .NSF with multiple tracks or only one track?
04:31:52 <zzo38> What expansion chips have you used?
04:32:01 <zzo38> Have you used multiple expansions at once sometimes?
04:32:14 <madbr> gimme a sec, have to reinstall a nsf player winamp plugin :D
04:32:25 <madbr> I've done vrc6 and vrc7
04:32:43 <madbr> and "nsf with software mixer" :D
04:32:57 <madbr> (I didn't do the software mixer, just the song)
04:33:05 <zzo38> I have once tried to write a software synthesis in a .NSF file but I could not get it to work.
04:33:32 <zzo38> But what I have written and got to work is a ZZT music player .NSF file.
04:36:45 <madbr> I like wizardry.nsf
04:36:47 <madbr> :3
04:36:57 <madbr> might be better with drumsamples tho :D
04:38:30 <zzo38> Yes it might be; viewing 00README.txt it will tell you none of them use DPCM samples at all (yet); I may later make some including DPCM, or make new versions of existing ones too
04:38:37 <madbr> oh another trick, when you play the same note on two channels it's best to very slightly detune them :D
04:38:57 <zzo38> All .mml files are public domain you are free to modify if you wish.
04:39:14 <zzo38> madbr: OK, I may do that.
04:39:56 <madbr> layering is especially nice on the vrc7
04:40:18 <zzo38> What do you mean by layering?
04:40:20 <madbr> you can get like 3 layers going with detuning and one being played slightly late
04:40:35 <madbr> playing the same melody on multiple channels but with slight differences
04:40:45 <madbr> like two different instruments
04:40:52 <madbr> or detuned
04:40:54 <zzo38> OK, yes I can understand that.
04:41:00 <madbr> or one with vibrato and one without vibrato
04:41:36 <zzo38> OK, yes, that too.
04:42:25 <zzo38> I have not done those but I have done some similar things; you can see the .mml files to see exactly what is done, if you want to.
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04:46:18 <zzo38> Did you read the 00README.txt?
04:47:39 <madbr> I think you should try famitracker
04:48:25 <madbr> I don't use it but the other modshrine (virt, coda, chibitech, etc...) guys swear by it
04:48:27 <zzo38> I know Famitracker; my brother uses that. I happen to like PPMCK, and I have made a lot of improvements to PPMCK as well.
04:49:31 <zzo38> As far as I know, Famitracker can only use one expansion chip at once.
04:49:52 <madbr> you music doesn't have enough vibratos and volume slides and note cuts and bends etc :D
04:50:37 <madbr> you need a tool where doing these things is easy and you can hear what you're doing very fast so you can put effects all over the place
04:50:43 <zzo38> Yes it does not have a lot of those. But that is just because I did not put them in.
04:51:06 <madbr> you need a tool where putting them in is easy
04:51:19 <madbr> if your tool makes it hard you're never going to fill your song with them
04:52:04 <zzo38> If I am going to use them, I will add commands for those things more easily in PPMCK; although for now I can find entering the volume manually is easy enough.
04:53:47 <zzo38> If I need them I will add those features, of course. One feature I have added recently to PPMCK is the ability to enter DPCM samples inline (instead of loading from a file); I might use that. Features I have added a while ago include * and ? commands, and I now use those a lot.
04:58:07 <zzo38> Some people prefer MCK, some prefer Famitracker, and some other people like NerdTracker.
04:58:16 <kmc> mainly nerds
04:58:27 <madbr> I thought nerdtracker was really old
04:58:31 <madbr> and kinda buggy
04:58:46 <zzo38> Yes it is really old.
04:58:53 <zzo38> I don't know much about it.
04:59:05 <madbr> all I know is that when I tried it, it crashed :D
05:00:38 <madbr> you also gotta learn how to alternate long and short notes
05:01:42 <zzo38> In some musics I am writing more recently (not posted yet) I do use some crescendo, trill, and so on.
05:01:55 <madbr> nice
05:02:05 <madbr> more percussion?
05:03:02 <zzo38> Trills can easily be written using the EN command. I am not very good at percussion, although I have tried a bit and "internationale.nsf" is using percussion although the original I took it from had none (I made up the percussion myself), but still only noise and not DPCM.
05:03:32 <madbr> there's still lots of stuff that can be done to help noise :D
05:03:43 <madbr> like have unequal volume on hihat lines
05:04:09 <madbr> and have snares have a really short burst of low low frequency noise
05:04:25 <madbr> then switch the normal med~hi frequency for the tail
05:04:39 <madbr> maybe try to give it a nice volume envelope
05:05:09 <zzo38> I believe you; but like I said I am not very good at percussion. I understand chords and that stuff because I studied it, but not percussion.
05:06:46 <madbr> it's true that it's harder to get info for percussion
05:07:15 <madbr> I've analysed stuff like samba percussion and it's pretty complex :D
05:12:24 <zzo38> The music I have composed myself is "zzo38_1" and it has no percussion, but it does include chords and moment of silence, and a few other things. I wanted to include some minor chords too but I ended up including only major chords (although there is a V/V (applied dominant) chord in there).
05:12:50 <madbr> oh :o
05:13:07 <madbr> dunno I though it was major chords that were an aquired taste :D
05:13:23 <madbr> in my music minor dominated for like years and is probably still most common
05:13:45 <zzo38> I have included the chord numbers in the file; mostly to help me to write it but also if people want to look
05:14:00 <zzo38> madbr: Did you write music in a minor key, or in a major key, though?
05:14:08 <madbr> minor key
05:14:40 <madbr> I guess it's harder to use minor chords in major than major chords in minor, true :D
05:15:09 <zzo38> Chords in minor keys is more complicated.
05:15:27 <madbr> you think so? :D
05:15:37 <madbr> bass is easier to write tho
05:16:46 <zzo38> And yes it probably is harder to use minor chords in major than major chords in minor. In major key, minor chords are II, III, and VI (I wanted to use VI). In minor key, you can use the natural, melodic, or harmonic (usually harmonic, so that the major dominant chord is used), so you have more chords although that also makes it more complicated.
05:17:23 <madbr> gotta admit stuff like III isn't particularly useful
05:18:13 <madbr> yeah I always though the natural vs melodic minor stuff was overanalyzed
05:18:36 <madbr> you just pick the one that sounds the best for the particular thing you're writing on the spot
05:18:46 <zzo38> Yes that is one way to do it.
05:19:08 <madbr> it's kinda like picking which flavor of candy you want to eat :D
05:22:05 <zzo38> The books I studied use lowercase for minor and diminished chords, although I don't use that because it is difficult when hand-written. Some people just always use the uppercase and don't indicate major/minor. I use the uppercase, but when it is important to indicate major/minor/diminished I will write that too: + for major, - for major, x for augmented, o for diminished.
05:22:30 <madbr> I use "m" for minor
05:22:41 <zzo38> (In major keys it is rarely necessary to write that; but in minor keys it becomes more useful to write them)
05:22:47 <madbr> like I IIm7 V7b9
05:23:06 <madbr> essentially I use jazz chord notation together with roman numerals
05:23:09 <zzo38> madbr: When writing the letter name of the chord I will use m for minor, but when writing the number I will use - for minor.
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05:23:45 <zzo38> (I normally use the roman numerals when I am writing music, though.)
05:23:46 <madbr> yeah II-7 is also common in jazz notation
05:24:56 <zzo38> If the music is written in a major key I won't bother writing II-7 and will just write II7 since it is understood that it is minor. (If I do need to indicate it major, I can write II+ but often it will be V/V instead of II anyways.)
05:25:16 <madbr> yeah I don't use V/V
05:25:25 <madbr> because it's ambiguous with inversions
05:26:10 <madbr> like I V/VII I7/bVII IV/VI IVm/bVI I/V V7b9
05:27:45 <zzo38> Can't you just write V6 and so on for first inversions?
05:29:47 <madbr> but then it's confusing it with, well, V6
05:30:03 <madbr> (G B D E for G6)
05:32:04 <zzo38> The way I use the notation I won't mean that; when I write V6 I mean the V chord in first inversion. I will write it something else if I mean what you are doing such as calling the E a non-chord tone or something like that. At least, this is the way I do it. You can do it your way if it works better for you.
05:33:31 <madbr> I just take jazz notation and replace letters with roman numbers
05:33:40 <madbr> IMHO the most consistent notation
05:34:06 <zzo38> Well OK. I am using the classical notation since that is what I have studied.
05:34:30 <zzo38> Of course jazz notation works too, and so does jazz ntoation with roman numbers.
05:35:17 <madbr> I don't like how classical notation is inconsistent with sharps and flats
05:35:23 <madbr> like how they depend on your key
05:35:29 <zzo38> (Although I do not think jazz notation with roman numbers is common; do you know if anyone other than you uses it?)
05:35:41 <madbr> mark levine
05:35:46 <madbr> jazz theory book
05:37:10 <zzo38> madbr: Yes I know. I generally don't find it necessary to write the sharps and flats in the chord notation, though. Things other than the chords themself can be written with non-chord tones, and may be circled for reminder (sometimes it is also written what kind of non-chord tone, such as in analysis; I don't find this necessary).
05:37:59 <madbr> Ok how do you write Valt7 in classical notation
05:38:29 <zzo38> I don't know what that means; I don't know jazz notation very well.
05:38:30 <madbr> In, say, Bb minor
05:38:44 <madbr> alt7 is a 7th chord with a bunch of alterations
05:39:04 <zzo38> I think I found it on Wikipedia. Let me look what it means.
05:39:33 <madbr> theoretically b9, #9, #11, #5
05:40:30 <madbr> Irl it's usually played as 7#5#9
05:41:17 <kmc> F♯ A♯ ∞
05:41:31 <madbr> So Falt7 is something like A, Db, Eb, Ab in the keyboardist's left hand while the bass plays F
05:41:56 <zzo38> OK.
05:43:17 <SHACHAF> kmc: lexande_ has all the train answers.
05:43:23 <kmc> regarding?
05:43:56 <SHACHAF> Trains.
05:44:05 <zzo38> It seems that "altered chord" in jazz could mean more than one kind of chord, according to the Wikipedia article.
05:44:31 <kmc> specifically?
05:45:08 <madbr> zzo: irl the classification is something like
05:45:17 <zzo38> I have never thought of writing such altered chords, but if I do I would probably just indicate that it is being altered and write the alterations on the notes rather than the chord notations.
05:45:22 <madbr> "does it have a #9?"
05:45:36 <madbr> (ie a major third and minor third at the same time)
05:46:01 <madbr> if yes -> does it have a normal 5th or a normal 6th?
05:46:15 <madbr> if it does, then it's a 7#9 or a 7b9
05:46:33 <madbr> if it has a #5 (aka b13 aka b6) then it's an alt7
05:47:53 <zzo38> OK.
05:50:00 <madbr> in jazz chords are often classified by which scale you play over them... alt7 is played over the so called "super-locrian" scale (C Db Eb E F# Ab Bb)
05:51:13 <zzo38> OK.
05:58:02 <madbr> so yeah that's the reason I like jazz notation... you can write classical chords in jazz notation easily, but not vice-versa
05:58:32 <zzo38> Well, OK; that is good for you then.
06:00:27 <zzo38> I have also invented cadence symbols (books I have seen just write out the words) (I have once suggested this to someone to forward my suggestion to the Royal Conservatory): P for perfect, P with a slash through it for imperfect, PL for plagal, D for deceptive. Circled for closed, a half-circle around for semi-closed, and no circle for open. (What I am calling "perfect" here is sometimes called an "authentic" cadence, but I learned "perfect")
06:01:58 <madbr> I can't remember what semi-closed was
06:04:13 <zzo38> Semi-closed means one or both chords are not in the root position or the second chord does not have the tonic in the soprano.
06:05:06 <madbr> I thought that was imperfect :o
06:06:06 <zzo38> That is also called imperfect; there are two different terminologies for cadences.
06:06:43 <madbr> yeah
06:06:47 <zzo38> (I don't know why this is, but it is.)
06:08:11 <madbr> I think I didn't use closed cadences at all when I was younger but now I do :D
06:10:30 <zzo38> I have written some music which I did not put into the computer because it is too short.
06:14:43 <madbr> yeah that's why I use a tracker
06:14:51 <madbr> so that I can write music on the computer :D
06:15:47 <zzo38> My music "zzo38_1" was written directly on the computer, though. I did not use paper for that one.
06:16:02 <zzo38> (That is why the chord symbols are included in the comments.)
06:17:44 <zzo38> I have also written some music in the QBASIC PLAY command, without using paper or anything else. This is not polyphonic, though. But I have done so both using the built-in PLAY command for standard music, and my own PlayBP subroutine for Bohlen-Pierce.
06:19:13 <madbr> http://madbrain.devzero.co.uk/the_tomato_soup_case.mp3 <- this only has open cadences I think
06:19:25 <madbr> zzo: ho god bohlen-pierce
06:19:59 <madbr> you need to use tools with a faster feedback loop
06:20:43 <madbr> irl keyboard, midi sequencer, tracker, anything
06:23:18 <itidus21> i have no clue when it comes to composing music
06:23:42 <madbr> it's a learned skill :D
06:24:02 <itidus21> oh dear god no
06:24:04 <zzo38> I find it easier to just write out the music first and then make corrections later. I do have an electric piano but I don't usually use it to write music. My father *only* writes music by playing it on the piano.
06:24:56 <madbr> zzo: what, you sing notes to yourself first until you have a melody that you like, then write it down?
06:24:59 <zzo38> Some composers were deaf and could still write music.
06:25:39 <madbr> zzo: yeah the classic beethoven thing but those are special cases
06:25:50 <zzo38> madbr: Generally I just think about it rather than singing it out loud, but generally yes. Sometimes I will write the chords first though, and sometimes a combination of the melody and chords.
06:26:27 <zzo38> And then I will play it on the piano or computer, and if it is no good I will adjust it.
06:27:24 <itidus21> zzo38: do you know about koji kondo and nobuo uematsu?
06:27:41 <zzo38> I know some things about them.
06:27:45 <itidus21> yay!
06:28:17 <madbr> dude do you know about mitsuda yasunori, the chrono trigger dude? :D
06:28:23 <itidus21> i don't.
06:28:37 <zzo38> I don't know.
06:28:56 <itidus21> i recently got chrono trigger for my hacked ds though
06:29:11 <itidus21> that will probably be a positive experience when i eventually
06:29:34 <zzo38> When adding the percussion to the Internationale, I just added it based on seeing (not hearing) the dissonance in the music and writing percussion based on that. I don't know if that is the correct way or whatever to do percussion, but it sounded OK to me and to my brother.
06:30:35 <zzo38> This is how I do music. I don't do it live like many people do; I prefer the old way.
06:30:58 <itidus21> old ways are probably the best
06:31:16 <zzo38> itidus21: Well, to me it is anyways; other people may prefer other ways.
06:31:28 <fizzie> `runc int main(void) { unsigned buf[12], i; for (i = 0; i < 3; i++) { asm("cpuid" : "=a"(buf[4*i]), "=b"(buf[4*i+1]), "=c"(buf[4*i+2]), "=d"(buf[4*i+3]) : "a"(0x80000002u+i)); } puts((char*)buf); }
06:31:33 <HackEgo> AMD Opteron(tm) Processor 6128
06:31:40 <itidus21> i always like to be bitter and cynical about ways of game design (while indefinitly procrastinating doing it myself)
06:31:40 <fizzie> The truth is revealed!
06:31:47 <fizzie> (Maybe it wasn't such a secret.)
06:32:02 <madbr> the usual way of composing for percussion is something like telling the drummer "I want a bossa beat"
06:32:04 <madbr> the end
06:32:05 <madbr> :D
06:32:40 <madbr> zzo: it could have the kind of military marching snare beat thing
06:32:49 <itidus21> zzo38: i got a legitimate version of warioware diy. that has a feature to compose music.
06:33:00 <itidus21> but only a few seconds worth i think
06:33:41 <zzo38> madbr: Perhaps that is how they do it. But like I said I don't know much about percussion so I just did it by dissonance. (You can see and/or hear the percussion I have used if you want to.)
06:33:58 <itidus21> .....
06:34:12 <itidus21> i knew when i was a child that nintendo was a seriously big deal
06:34:37 <itidus21> 20 years later, nothing has changed
06:34:58 <zzo38> I don't even know very well whether a bossa beat or this beat or that beat is better.
06:35:15 <zzo38> (Well, it is not only by dissonance that I did it by; I did it by rhythm and dissonance.)
06:35:33 <madbr> zzo: usually it works by style
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06:35:55 <madbr> swing jazz gets swing beat, bossa gets bossa beat
06:36:18 <fizzie> What gets the "fat beat" I've been hearing about? Fat musicians?
06:36:43 <madbr> metal gets the drummer pounding the kick with his double pedal like it's a pinata :D
06:38:05 <itidus21> hmm
06:39:26 <itidus21> i think if i was living alone, i would use the freedom to build instruments out of odds and ends
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06:40:09 <madbr> fusion jazz gets this complex break-beaty bossa-nova-ish swing-ish im-more-intelligent-than-you drumming :D
06:40:10 <zzo38> I suppose it is sort of like what I have done with rhythm, so it may be march or waltz time or whatever, although I have also done by dissonance.
06:40:10 <itidus21> but living with family, it becomes inappropriate to do such things
06:40:36 <madbr> march time?
06:40:39 <zzo38> Probably you (and/or other people) can do percussion better than I do; I am not very good at percussion.
06:40:50 <itidus21> zzo38: every object can make music
06:41:04 <zzo38> itidus21: Yes and I have sometimes done so as well.
06:41:05 <madbr> zzo: you need a tool where it's easy
06:41:22 <madbr> like proper DPCM support or something :D
06:41:36 <madbr> and a couple of nice kick and snare samples that hit hard :D
06:41:51 <itidus21> i suppose that when making instruments the goal is to provide a finite set of sounds the instrument can make, which can be composed together
06:41:52 <zzo38> I don't have DPCM samples so I used noise instead.
06:42:26 <zzo38> (Actually I do have the ZZT DPCM samples. But they may not be that good of quality compared with proper drums.)
06:42:41 <madbr> itidus: every object can make music but not every object can play in equal temperament over 2 octaves with multiple different nuances :D
06:43:08 <madbr> zzo: my favourite source is old MODs
06:43:32 <madbr> sometimes they have killer bass and drum samples
06:43:37 <itidus21> madbr: my rants of always stating the obvious
06:43:39 <zzo38> madbr: Well I do have some of those, so I can look and convert to DPCM and see if it is good.
06:43:39 <madbr> especially snares
06:44:09 <madbr> the awesome ones that sounds like an explosion every 2 beats :D
06:44:16 <itidus21> so
06:44:33 <zzo38> But I don't know much about drums so I don't know what kind of drums to use, whether I had a drum kit or not.
06:44:40 <madbr> kick
06:44:42 <madbr> snare
06:44:45 <madbr> hihat
06:44:48 <madbr> that is the bass
06:45:04 <madbr> hihat needs lots of high frequencies tho so it doesn't work well on DPCM
06:45:10 <itidus21> if you wanted to make an arcade game, is microswitches and joysticks good, or is it just traditional?
06:45:13 <madbr> but it's easy to do with noise tho
06:45:32 <zzo38> OK, but I think I will go to bed now because it is late, but thanks for information.
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06:45:45 <madbr> iti: eh?
06:45:54 <itidus21> i suppose that its made for resilence
06:46:17 <madbr> not my domain of competence :D
06:46:24 <madbr> I'm a keyboard nut tbh
06:46:32 <itidus21> arcade machine peripherals designed to take heavy damage :D
06:46:41 <itidus21> designed for use by jocks
06:49:03 <madbr> right
06:49:12 <fizzie> I have a TAC-2 in a box somewhere; it's a Totally Accurate Controller. (Sort of irrelevant, because it doesn't have microswitches; it has a ball.)
06:49:36 <itidus21> madbr: my train of thought was, what would PC be like in arcade? how would it differ from internet cafe? oh crap it won't differ from internet cafe
06:51:53 <madbr> I think they have some specific industrial strength components
06:51:59 <madbr> to deal with dust
06:52:02 <madbr> and being always on
06:52:19 <madbr> I think that's also why they used roms for the longest time rather than disks
06:54:43 <pikhq> Magnetic disks, especially floppies, were really quite fragile, yeah...
06:54:56 <pikhq> And ROMs still worrk.
06:55:07 <pikhq> Mask ROMs probably will for centuries.
07:11:04 <itidus21> but still i suspect theres room for innovation in arcade game interfaces
07:14:59 <itidus21> i can think of a few inventions which would be absurd. a digital billiard table, where the entire table is a graphical display and some kind of sensors detect what the queue is doing
07:16:03 <itidus21> such a system would have the advantage of allowing AI opponents
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07:32:40 <madbr> I dunno
07:33:00 <madbr> I like the tactile response of actually hitting real balls :D
07:34:06 <itidus21> indeed.
07:34:49 <itidus21> and i believe that a humble ball provides more accurate physics than what a super computer can muster
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07:50:36 <atriq> @messages?
07:50:36 <lambdabot> Sorry, no messages today.
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10:23:47 <atriq> I wonder if there's anyone alive who met Eddie Morton
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11:20:30 <ais523> [CTCP] Received CTCP-PING reply from ais523: 77 seconds.
11:20:36 <ais523> it's going to be one of /those/ days again, isn't it?
11:25:08 <ais523> SHACHAF: also, that was really difficult to do in this client, I had to copy-paste a literal control-A
11:25:37 <SHACHAF> ais523: whoa, dude, that's weird.
11:25:42 <SHACHAF> 04:24 CTCP hi reply from ais523:
11:25:47 <SHACHAF> I've never gotten one of those before.
11:25:53 <SHACHAF> Usually it's a fancy NOTICE thing.
11:25:55 <ais523> SHACHAF: it was awkward to send in this client
11:26:04 <ais523> let me try giving it an argument
11:26:18 <ais523> did that work?
11:26:30 <fizzie> That's a big SHACHAF there.
11:26:49 <SHACHAF> fizzie: / /nick FIZZIE
11:26:54 <SHACHAF> Er.
11:26:56 <SHACHAF> Ignore the /
11:27:02 <SHACHAF> ais523: /nick AIS523
11:27:43 <fizzie> Don't wanna. :(
11:28:01 <ais523> [CTCP] Received unknown CTCP-WHOADUDE IT STILL LOOKS WEIRD, MAN request from SHACHAF.
11:28:16 * ais523 decides not to send a reply
11:28:58 <ais523> [CTCP] Received CTCP-PING reply from ais523: 1,346,671,725 seconds.
11:29:10 <ais523> that's because I sent myself a ping backdated to the epoch
11:29:11 <SHACHAF> That's a lot of seconds.
11:29:12 <ais523> rather than connection trouble
11:29:18 <SHACHAF> @google 1,346,671,725 seconds
11:29:19 <lambdabot> No Result Found.
11:29:28 <SHACHAF> I guess it'll be about 42 years.
11:30:36 <ais523> 42 years 9 months 3 days and around 12 hours
11:30:40 <ais523> depending on how this works with timezones
11:33:36 <fizzie> The PING argument isn't specified, so sometimes with two different clients connected to a bouncer you get rather funky PING replies as seen from the client that didn't send the request.
11:34:05 <fizzie> Some send seconds since epoch, some milliseconds since epoch, some seconds + space + micro/nanoseconds.
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12:10:59 <atriq> Rereading some Freefall: http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff2100/fc02009.htm
12:11:33 <atriq> Then a while later: http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff2300/fc02227.htm
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13:02:57 <atriq> asAppliedTo :: (a -> b) -> a -> (a -> b); asAppliedTo f _ = f
13:03:45 <atriq> :t let asAppliedTo :: (a -> b) -> a -> (a -> b); asAppliedTo f _ = f in (1+) `asAppliedTo` 0.5
13:03:46 <lambdabot> forall t. (Fractional t) => t -> t
13:05:16 <atriq> :t let asAppliedTo :: (a -> b) -> a -> (a -> b); asAppliedTo f _ = f in (1+) `asAppliedTo` pi
13:05:17 <lambdabot> forall t. (Floating t) => t -> t
13:05:28 <atriq> :t let asAppliedTo :: (a -> b) -> a -> (a -> b); asAppliedTo f _ = f in (1+) `asAppliedTo` ceiling 2
13:05:29 <lambdabot> forall t. (Integral t) => t -> t
13:05:55 <atriq> :t let asAppliedTo :: (a -> b) -> a -> (a -> b); asAppliedTo f _ = f in (1+) `asAppliedTo` (snd . properFraction) 2
13:05:56 <lambdabot> forall b. (RealFrac b) => b -> b
13:06:12 <atriq> :t let asAppliedTo :: (a -> b) -> a -> (a -> b); asAppliedTo f _ = f in (1+) `asAppliedTo` significand 2
13:06:13 <lambdabot> forall t. (RealFloat t) => t -> t
13:06:49 <atriq> :t (1 +)
13:06:50 <lambdabot> forall t. (Num t) => t -> t
13:07:49 <atriq> I can't think of a way to get a Real constraint using this method
13:08:40 <atriq> > scaleFloat 2 3
13:08:41 <lambdabot> 12.0
13:08:49 <atriq> > scaleFloat 8 1
13:08:50 <lambdabot> 256.0
13:09:22 <atriq> > map (`scaleFloat` 1) [1..10]
13:09:23 <lambdabot> [2.0,4.0,8.0,16.0,32.0,64.0,128.0,256.0,512.0,1024.0]
13:12:33 <atriq> > let q = id in (id 1, id 'a')
13:12:34 <lambdabot> (1,'a')
13:12:58 <atriq> > let q = id in (q 1, q 'a')
13:12:59 <lambdabot> (1,'a')
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13:48:11 <atriq> Aaargh
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15:04:37 <atriq> Wow
15:05:01 <atriq> Of my two favourite webcomics, one started when I was 14, the other when I was 6
15:05:09 <atriq> What could this mean?
15:05:16 <atriq> Wait, not 6.
15:05:17 <atriq> 7.
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15:14:17 <fizzie> atriq: Your new favourite webcomic will be started when you turn 28, unless you already are.
15:14:40 <nortti> fizzie: what webcomic?
15:15:27 <fizzie> nortti: 18:05 < atriq> Of my two favourite webcomics, one started when I was 14, the other when I was 6
15:15:40 <fizzie> (The 6 was later fixed to be 7.)
15:15:44 <atriq> Homestuck and IWC
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15:16:00 <AnotherTest> Hello
15:16:01 <fizzie> > iterate (*2) 7 -- your new favourite webcomic start ages
15:16:02 <lambdabot> [7,14,28,56,112,224,448,896,1792,3584,7168,14336,28672,57344,114688,229376,...
15:16:08 <atriq> I turn 28 in 10 years 2 months today
15:16:26 <fizzie> Hopefully you'll live to see the one that starts when you turn 229376, I hear it's quite a good one.
15:16:47 <atriq> Will they still have webcomics in 2890?
15:16:55 <AnotherTest> who will tell
15:17:05 <fizzie> I suppose they'll be some kind of direct neural-fed qualiomics, but anyway.
15:17:09 <AnotherTest> a time traveler, perhaps..
15:17:27 <atriq> Will they still have webcomics in 2050, for that matter
15:17:51 <Arc_Koen> nah, in 2050 the internet will be about to disappear
15:17:57 <Arc_Koen> just like the minitel has
15:18:49 <atriq> Wow
15:18:54 <AnotherTest> Maybe it returns in 2890
15:19:04 <atriq> It's conceivable that IWC has readers younger than it.
15:19:34 <atriq> Is it bad I use GHCi as a calculator?
15:20:57 <AnotherTest> why not?
15:21:23 <atriq> Because it has 3 different exponentiation functions by defualt!
15:21:31 <atriq> :t ((^),(^^),(**))
15:21:32 <lambdabot> forall a b a1 b1 a2. (Num a, Integral b, Fractional a1, Integral b1, Floating a2) => (a -> b -> a, a1 -> b1 -> a1, a2 -> a2 -> a2)
15:22:03 <AnotherTest> If you do not find that is a problem, then it doesn't matter
15:22:07 <AnotherTest> it's probably a feature
15:22:08 <AnotherTest> not a problem
15:22:13 <atriq> It is a feature
15:22:20 <atriq> They represent slightly different things
15:22:46 <Arc_Koen> the word "feature" means "intentional problem", does it not?
15:23:05 <atriq> (^) is raising to a non-negative integer, (^^) to any integer, (**) to any real (ish)
15:23:07 <atriq> @info Floating
15:23:07 <lambdabot> Floating
15:23:15 <atriq> Thank you, lambdabot
15:23:19 <atriq> @info Applicative
15:23:19 <lambdabot> Applicative
15:23:19 <copumpkin> :t [(^), (^^), (**)]
15:23:21 <lambdabot> forall a. (Floating a, Integral a) => [a -> a -> a]
15:23:36 <copumpkin> yay unification
15:24:06 <AnotherTest> Why didn't they just overload one of these operators?
15:24:17 <atriq> Haskell isn't like that
15:24:24 <AnotherTest> oh.
15:24:46 <atriq> :t toInteger pi
15:24:47 <lambdabot> Ambiguous type variable `a' in the constraints:
15:24:47 <lambdabot> `Integral a'
15:24:47 <lambdabot> arising from a use of `toInteger' at <interactive>:1:0-11
15:25:28 <atriq> :t (pi, toInteger pi)
15:25:29 <lambdabot> Ambiguous type variable `a' in the constraints:
15:25:29 <lambdabot> `Integral a'
15:25:29 <lambdabot> arising from a use of `toInteger' at <interactive>:1:5-16
15:25:37 <atriq> :t let x = pi in (x, toInteger x)
15:25:38 <lambdabot> Ambiguous type variable `a' in the constraints:
15:25:39 <lambdabot> `Integral a'
15:25:39 <lambdabot> arising from a use of `toInteger' at <interactive>:1:18-28
15:25:42 <AnotherTest> hm.
15:25:50 <AnotherTest> that doesn't look nice
15:25:50 <atriq> Point is, it's impossible
15:26:00 <atriq> For something to be both Floating and Integral
15:26:12 <AnotherTest> so overloading doesn't exist?
15:26:30 <AnotherTest> well
15:26:37 <AnotherTest> I know there is something called overloading
15:26:38 <atriq> No, it uses a kind of polymorphism
15:26:50 <AnotherTest> which is for 1 function
15:27:06 <AnotherTest> or wait that was called polymorphism
15:27:19 <AnotherTest> I should use run-time dispatch now
15:27:26 <AnotherTest> for OO-languages
15:27:36 <AnotherTest> *imperative OO languages
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15:29:35 <kmc> i bet jerkcity has readers younger than it
15:29:43 <kmc> it would appeal to 14 year olds
15:32:12 <kmc> http://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/im-comic-sans-asshole
15:33:53 <AnotherTest> Gutenberg actually only improved typography
15:34:04 <AnotherTest> Koreans could print stuff earlier
15:34:46 <AnotherTest> He was important though
15:35:12 <AnotherTest> I think he replaced the wooden shapes for the characters with iron shapes
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15:38:19 <kmc> "The world's first known movable-type system for printing was created in China around 1040 A.D. by Bi Sheng (990–1051) during the Song Dynasty;[1] following that, the first metal movable-type system for printing was made in Korea during the Goryeo Dynasty (around 1230)."
15:38:32 <AnotherTest> I thought Korea
15:38:39 <AnotherTest> I'm actually pretty sure it was Korea
15:38:57 <AnotherTest> (that had the actual first thing to print)
15:38:57 <kmc> http://achewood.com/index.php?date=11242004
15:39:02 <kmc> hacked by chinese
15:39:20 <AnotherTest> But I guess I learned it wrong then
15:41:47 <kmc> 'The Chinese government should definitely maintain hacked.gov.cn and provide little validation badges like that "TRUSTe" thing so you can confirm that a site really has been hacked by Chinese.'
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18:59:25 <zzo38> Do you know what IRC channel(s) they would know better of the stuff I am asking for RogueVM?
19:04:07 <nortti> "C++ suffers from problems causing reasonable-looking sentences to cause listeners to snap and try to kill you"
19:04:11 <nortti> "As my friend Jacob Gabrielson once put it, advocating Object-Oriented Programming is like advocating Pants-Oriented Clothing."
19:04:33 <zzo38> Is that how it works?
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19:06:43 <zzo38> Object oriented programming can sometimes be useful for some things. I do not believe it is best for all things.
19:08:58 <itidus21> i think one problem is it's easier to think about objects than it is to think about computation
19:09:27 <zzo38> I do not think it is always easier.
19:10:03 <itidus21> any fool can start thinking up object names
19:10:41 <zzo38> But that doesn't necessarily make it easier or more sensible. Sometimes the name will be no good.
19:10:43 <itidus21> but, like, understanding oop alone won't enable you to write an OS
19:10:57 <nortti> 22:10 < itidus21> any fool can start thinking up object names // and now I'm going to try to find why that message was hilighted
19:12:02 <nortti> oh. hilight for foo
19:12:20 <itidus21> haha...
19:13:13 <itidus21> here is my Scheduler class, it is a member of my OS , all i have to do is fill in the members and i will be all set
19:13:31 <itidus21> better throw in a GUI class
19:15:07 <itidus21> no tidus, you should use design patterns. or else you're doing it wrong >:)
19:16:27 <itidus21> but i just want to fill in the members.. i don't have time to study patterns
19:16:46 <itidus21> "we all hate you!!!"
19:18:06 <itidus21> *phew*
19:20:35 <itidus21> zzo38: but whether the name is good or not is subjective, which gives the fools ground for argument
19:21:59 <kmc> itidus21: did you ever write a scheduler
19:22:00 <kmc> or an os
19:22:01 <kmc> or any code
19:22:53 <itidus21> i'm arguing why oop may get a bad name, using myself as an exhibit
19:23:32 <itidus21> i didn't write a scheduler.. even the theory of them was probably too steep for me
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19:24:11 <kmc> you don't need much theory to write a simple scheduler
19:24:50 <pikhq> Naive schedulers are pretty simple.
19:25:19 <pikhq> Process scheduling? Circular linked list of processes.
19:25:46 <itidus21> kmc: my ability at coding is just a reflection of my life in general
19:25:51 <pikhq> It won't be ideal, but it's functional and really simple.
19:27:12 <pikhq> In general, you only need theory to do the clever bits of things. Just thwacking out something that works is mostly just a matter of effort.
19:27:39 <pikhq> (note: sans theory, you are going to be writing *really inefficient code* in certain cases. But it'll function.)
19:28:15 <itidus21> for what i think you mean by did i write any code, i didn't
19:29:04 <kmc> there are some problems you can't solve at all without some theory
19:29:13 <kmc> i don't think you can write a 3D renderer without understanding a little bit about 3D geometry
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19:32:18 <itidus21> i am quite an unhappy person overall. maybe some people accept what they can't change. in my case, what i can't change leaves me feeling trapped or whatever
19:32:36 <itidus21> some people, i guess they don't feel there is anything they can't change except death and taxes
19:32:57 <oerjan> ...this channel is not big enough for both itidus21 and me in the mood i'm in.
19:32:57 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
19:33:00 <oerjan> @messages
19:33:01 <lambdabot> AnotherTest asked 3h 48m 23s ago: Isn't '.' right after '+' in the ASCII table?
19:33:19 <itidus21> oerjan: but im learning im delusional!
19:33:27 <oerjan> > ord <$> "+."
19:33:28 <itidus21> its a wonderful idea
19:33:28 <lambdabot> [43,46]
19:33:54 <oerjan> @tell AnotherTest No. + = 43, . = 46
19:33:54 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
19:34:18 <itidus21> its like thinking you are living in a warzone and then learning that it's actually just a construction yard outside making all the noise
19:34:46 <itidus21> that is the feeling of recognizing momentarily that one is infact deluded
19:34:46 <oerjan> itidus21: when you say you are learning you are delusional, do you mean that your shrink is telling you that?
19:35:18 <itidus21> no, but if i may give you an example
19:35:42 <itidus21> i once thought someone who i was chatting to on the internet was in my backyard with a gun
19:35:55 <oerjan> ok i guess that's delusional.
19:36:10 <itidus21> but this was because i used to hear rodents or possums on the roof, and thought it was someone climbing around up there
19:36:20 <itidus21> i figured since my house is next to a park a hobo was sleeping on my roof
19:36:32 <kmc> itidus21: maybe you would feel better about yourself if you spent your time talking about something you do understand
19:36:48 <kmc> rather than saying wrong things about programming and then telling everyone how you're wrong
19:36:49 <oerjan> are you sure you are australian and not this guy i use to talk with in real life...
19:37:00 <itidus21> ping me
19:37:09 <itidus21> @time
19:37:10 <lambdabot> Local time for itidus21 is Tue Sep 04 05:36:56
19:37:20 <itidus21> sure i could have changed my time to lie
19:37:22 <kmc> then again maybe you do actually understand programming and are just depressed or something
19:37:23 <oerjan> (that was a joke, he would never be able to pretend to be you)
19:37:48 <oerjan> he wouldn't even be able to find this channel without my help
19:39:22 <itidus21> kmc: i understand the basics.... i can do small simple problems given enough time.. but once it gets into topics like math or unix , i have absolutely no clue
19:40:14 <oerjan> so i attract delusional people, presumably a plot by the universe to make me realize i'm delusional...
19:40:46 <itidus21> as for functional stuff, i suppose that what happens is i have been not actually trying to do it, but searching for elusive meanings to it, like some grand idea
19:41:05 <oerjan> i also attract people who are willing to tell me i am, and thereby make me stop trusting them when i actually thought i needed their help. :(
19:42:06 <itidus21> and i am also fiercely in denial about not being a genius
19:43:14 <oerjan> itidus21: well chances are, merely from being on this channel, that you are smart enough to convince 50% of everybody you are a genius.
19:43:47 <itidus21> yeah.. i can throw words around pretty well!
19:44:01 <itidus21> i have absorbed a lot of vocabulary at the least!
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19:44:28 <nortti> throw Word
19:45:12 <itidus21> hmm
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19:45:21 <zzo38> There is no great genius without some touch of madness.
19:45:22 <nortti> (throw 'word)
19:45:27 <oerjan> damn housemate, don't ramp up the music volume
19:46:01 <itidus21> kmc: you really don't want to see the sort of "code" i produced in the past when trying to make a game..
19:46:15 <itidus21> i don't know why it's so bad
19:46:20 <zzo38> Well, I do want to see.
19:46:24 <itidus21> maybe because i avoided getting feedback on it
19:46:38 <itidus21> and just learned like a wolf in the wild
19:46:41 <oerjan> itidus21: maybe you are doing cargo cult programming...
19:46:58 <itidus21> lol
19:47:01 <oerjan> trying to make something which _looks_ like programming, without knowing what it actually is
19:49:00 <oerjan> darn maybe i'm doing cargo cult living
19:49:29 <itidus21> zzo38: i'm not sure what the best way to show code is
19:49:43 <kmc> oerjan: fake it 'till you make it
19:50:08 <itidus21> maybe if i just post a random ugly chunk of code on pastebin
19:50:29 <zzo38> No, sprunge is better.
19:50:48 <itidus21> i use winxp... i don't know that kind of thing
19:51:06 <zzo38> (In addition, doing so, you won't show anyone who doesn't want to see because posts to sprunge are not listed in public)
19:51:42 <oerjan> kmc: the trouble is i don't really want to live in the way everybody keeps advising me to do, _nor_ am i smart enough in that aspect to find my own way
19:52:05 <kmc> and which way do they advise you?
19:52:30 <itidus21> zzo38: well.. maybe another day!
19:53:18 <oerjan> kmc: as close to "normal" as possible.
19:53:25 <kmc> yeah but which aspects of "normal"
19:53:52 <oerjan> sorry, too painful to discuss
19:53:55 <kmc> ok
19:53:57 <kmc> good luck
19:54:09 <zzo38> 2999 Funny Things To Do To Your Opponent's Computer:
19:54:14 <zzo38> # Remove the plug and replace it with a fake plug. When they ask you what's wrong with their computer, tell them this: "I was trying to fix your computer for you, so I opened it up and looked inside, and a lot of the wires inside weren't connected, so I connected all of them, and then I turned it on, it was all smoke..." When they go to the store to fix it, they will realize that the computer is working fine, it is just the wrong plug.
19:54:22 <zzo38> # Make a program that keeps changing the system time to a random time every five minutes.
19:54:30 <zzo38> # Change icons to point to different programs than what they actually say.
19:54:39 <nortti> :P
19:54:49 <zzo38> # Alter the spell-checker so that none of the words are real words anymore.
19:54:53 <nortti> I did that with our school computers
19:55:05 <kmc> one time i hex edited the school computers so the Start button said "Strat"
19:55:10 <nortti> (switched paint and word)
19:55:11 <zzo38> # Put 0a program on their comp0uter that types0 zeros0 at r0andom times, and/0or0 displays r0andom error00 messa0ges at0 random 0times0.
19:55:22 <zzo38> # Steal the ball from their mouse and play pinball with it. Tell them it is a pinball.
19:55:29 <nortti> :D
19:55:37 <zzo38> # Get a screenshot of their normal desktop and then replace the background picture with it.
19:55:49 <nortti> done that
19:55:55 <kmc> # Open up the case and rub your dick all over the inside
19:56:20 <zzo38> # Put the monitor upsidedown and put a sensor in it so that if it is turned right side up then the picture is still upsidedown.
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19:56:33 <nortti> :D
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19:56:47 <nortti> zzo38: where did you find those?
19:57:07 <zzo38> I wrote most of them by myself; others were from other people I forget who.
19:57:14 <nortti> ok
19:57:15 <zzo38> (I also forget which ones)
19:57:51 <zzo38> # If there is more than one computer in the room, switch the keyboard inputs.
19:58:00 <nortti> is the list available somewhere?
19:58:04 <nortti> done that
19:58:11 <zzo38> They are in my FORTUNE file.
19:58:27 <nortti> ok
19:59:37 <itidus21> kmc: well one thing is that i have always thought about computers as having an associated display
20:00:46 <itidus21> my conception there may be slightly wonky. like i do realize that theres other forms of I/O but i'm fixated on the monitor
20:01:54 <itidus21> like, when learning about computers at some age or other i was pretty much dismissing anything which wasn't part of a video game playing system
20:01:57 <FireFly> # Install sysinternals' BSoD screensaver and turn off the "mouse movement closes screen saver" option
20:02:18 <nortti> hahaha
20:03:48 <nortti> zzo38: I can't find you fortune file on your gopher site. is it there somewhere?
20:04:09 <itidus21> also i tend to rely quite heavily on existing software...
20:04:31 <itidus21> and if i can't download the software to solve some task, i see that as being equivalent to not being able to do the task
20:04:40 <zzo38> Currently the file is not available; you can only request one entry at random.
20:04:47 <zzo38> (I may change that later)
20:04:51 <itidus21> most of the time
20:04:52 <FireFly> :(
20:06:25 <itidus21> oerjan: in reality i suppose i gotta say im the happiest overall i've ever been
20:06:40 <oerjan> good, good
20:06:44 <itidus21> but, in the past, i got higher highs, and lower lows
20:06:47 <itidus21> i miss the higher highs
20:08:08 <itidus21> i think that one trouble i had was bumping into the wrong crowd online
20:08:58 <itidus21> theres no question that these were seriously fucked up people
20:09:40 <itidus21> somehow that chatroom pushed me over the edge
20:10:02 <itidus21> a sort of insanity that i haven't been able to shake
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20:12:53 <oerjan> `addquote <madbr> I like the tactile response of actually hitting real balls :D
20:13:01 <kmc> hehehe balls
20:13:04 <HackEgo> 859) <madbr> I like the tactile response of actually hitting real balls :D
20:13:19 <oerjan> i guess that won't survive but hey
20:13:40 <itidus21> i mustn't dwell on it though
20:14:27 <oerjan> i keep pondering whether to visit the dalnet #esoteric
20:14:51 <itidus21> no
20:14:52 <itidus21> don't
20:15:02 <itidus21> :P
20:15:32 <nortti-> why?
20:15:52 <nortti-> start talkng about esolangs there
20:16:12 <itidus21> well, its not as if they actually know anything
20:16:28 <itidus21> having said this i havent actually been to such places
20:16:55 <oerjan> itidus21: i thought that was the kind of place you were referring to, which is why i mentioned it
20:17:17 <oerjan> something vaguely recalled about buddhism
20:17:27 <itidus21> ya, the yahoo buddhism chatroom
20:17:48 <itidus21> they're just not right in their heads
20:18:23 <itidus21> ok, ill put it this way
20:18:46 <itidus21> the only danger of any such chatrooms or such is psychological manipulation
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20:24:29 <nortti-> at #esoteric@dalnet there are only 3 people (including me) and no ops
20:26:04 <oerjan> darn
20:26:18 <itidus21> i am not meaning that esoterica is bad, but it is surely wild and volatile
20:26:36 <oerjan> i guess my chances of finding the secrets to the universe there are essentially non-existent, then.
20:27:29 <itidus21> its kind of like the way that harley riders have some perception of being in gangs
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20:32:24 <nortti-> (killuminati) how many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsiepop
20:32:38 <nortti-> (killuminati) please, serious esoteric answers only
20:32:47 <nortti-> @#esoteric
20:32:47 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
20:33:51 <oerjan> that clearly depends on how many angels can dance on it
20:34:13 <itidus21> so.. there you can see he has swapped the word questions with answers
20:35:02 <itidus21> i assume
20:35:22 <nortti-> (nortti) (oerjan) that clearly depends on how many angels can dance on it
20:35:32 <nortti-> (killuminati) okay stop trolling
20:38:14 <oerjan> but only angels have the patience not to bite into it!
20:38:34 <oerjan> using their famous tootsie roll pop licking dance
20:40:29 <itidus21> i didn't mean any offence to zzo, or anyone, when being negative about esoterica
20:41:15 <oerjan> zzo cares about esoterica?
20:41:26 <itidus21> i don't know :-D
20:41:44 <itidus21> when i saw him quit i worried if it was something i said
20:42:03 <itidus21> but i think people often worry if it was something they said when someone quits after you say something
20:42:26 <oerjan> OKAY
20:42:32 <itidus21> eep
20:43:43 <itidus21> i don't know
20:43:59 <kmc> so what is the yahoo buddhism chatroom like
20:44:09 <kmc> is it full of, like, westerners who call themselves "buddhist" but know nothing about buddhism
20:44:13 <oerjan> zzo managed to get all into the astrolog program purely (afaik) for the astronomical calculation possibilities
20:45:20 <itidus21> ok, i think someone joked about when "they" finally wake him up
20:45:43 <oerjan> er what
20:45:51 <oerjan> wake who up
20:46:07 <itidus21> `pastelogs wake up
20:46:32 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.14704
20:46:53 <itidus21> kmc: hmm.. .... i don't even know how to answer that... it was too weird to explain
20:47:58 <oerjan> itidus21: that will only find the literal string "wake up", btw
20:48:19 <itidus21> you had proponents of various forms of buddhism, platoists, a lot of arguing, sex lies and video tape :P
20:48:49 <itidus21> kmc: probably yes, :P
20:50:28 <itidus21> `pastelogs finally*wake
20:50:42 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.7876
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20:51:02 <itidus21> did i write that query wrong?
20:51:14 <itidus21> `pastelogs finally*wake
20:51:21 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.18790
20:51:31 <itidus21> maybe just no results
20:51:40 <itidus21> `pastelogs *finally*wake*
20:51:44 <HackEgo> grep: nothing to repeat \ http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.8439
20:53:39 <oerjan> itidus21: it's .* not * in regexps
20:54:04 <itidus21> `pastelogs .*finally.*wake.*
20:54:11 <itidus21> uh oh
20:54:17 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.28185
20:54:19 <oerjan> also there's no need for it at the beginning and end
20:54:21 <itidus21> i didnt think that one out carefully
20:54:37 <oerjan> well it didn't seem to hurt much
20:55:04 <itidus21> `pastelogs wake.*zzo
20:55:10 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.17009
20:55:25 <itidus21> `pastelogs zzo.*wake
20:55:33 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.3525
20:56:05 <itidus21> ok that one has me on the trail
20:58:35 <itidus21> http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2012-07-30 @ 01:14:20
21:00:09 <itidus21> thats all. really :P
21:01:09 <nortti-> (nortti) (oerjan) using their famous tootsie roll pop licking dance
21:01:16 <nortti-> eh
21:01:28 <nortti-> ** VenusSatanas has joined #esoteric
21:03:43 <oerjan> what horrible grammar, it should be VenusSatanis
21:04:04 <oerjan> or wait
21:04:08 <oerjan> hm maybe not
21:04:33 <oerjan> you didn't copy that, right? >:)
21:05:14 <nortti-> I copied it
21:05:38 * oerjan swats nortti- -----###
21:05:50 <nortti-> why"
21:06:20 <nortti-> I have copied everything you havevsaod about that
21:08:40 <oerjan> darn the latin link in wiktionary doesn't work
21:09:55 <itidus21> oerjan: or it could be intentionally wrong
21:10:33 <itidus21> an example of my delusions at play
21:12:03 <oerjan> apparently it can be either Satan or Satanas, but neither has a latin wiktionary item
21:12:23 <itidus21> i have a latin dictionary, but yeah...
21:12:28 <itidus21> the headwords alone aren't enough
21:13:07 <oerjan> well this is obviously nominative singular so _should_ be the headword
21:13:38 <itidus21> @_@
21:24:07 <oerjan> ais523: spam
21:24:53 <nortti-> (@^roshi) Boo
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00:08:54 <zzo38> Can "a is equal to this formula's Godel number" be implemented in Typographical Number Theory?
00:20:15 <SHACHAF> Wasn't that the whole point of Typographical Number Theory?
00:27:32 <zzo38> SHACHAF: Not really; they specified a formula to mean that itself is not provable; this is different.
00:30:17 <SHACHAF> Well, in order to do that, you have to be able to talk about the formula's Gödel number.
00:30:51 -!- elliott has joined.
00:31:01 <elliott> Hey I'm going to dump lines I need in here
00:31:02 <elliott> PUBLIC_ARCHIVE_URL = 'http://%(hostname)s/pipermail/%(listname)s/'
00:31:37 <oerjan> SPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAM
00:31:41 <elliott> oerjan: I deleted some spam today!
00:31:44 <elliott> That means it's alright.
00:31:45 <oerjan> yay!
00:33:28 <elliott> TODO: -- do I need to care about this?
00:33:29 <elliott> # Pipermail assumes that message bodies contain US-ASCII text.
00:33:29 <elliott> # Change this option to define a different character set to be used as
00:33:29 <elliott> # the default character set for the archive. The term "character set"
00:33:29 <elliott> # is used in MIME to refer to a method of converting a sequence of
00:33:29 <elliott> # octets into a sequence of characters. If you change the default
00:33:30 <elliott> # charset, you might need to add it to VERBATIM_ENCODING below.
00:34:44 <elliott> fizzie: Do you know about Postfix?
00:34:48 <elliott> What are these virtual domain things?
00:36:27 <SHACHAF> 17:33 <elliott> TODO: -- do I need to care about this?
00:36:27 <SHACHAF> 17:33 <elliott> # Pipermail assumes that message bodies contain US-ASCII text.
00:36:27 <SHACHAF> 17:33 <elliott> # Change this option to define a different character set to be used as
00:36:29 <SHACHAF> 17:33 <elliott> # the default character set for the archive. The term "character set"
00:36:59 <elliott> SHACHAF: Who are you?
00:37:06 <SHACHAF> elliott: I'm shachaf.
00:37:10 <SHACHAF> (Don't tell anyone!)
00:37:33 <SHACHAF> I didn't get welcomed in here for some reason.
00:37:42 <elliott> `WELCOME shachaf
00:40:28 <Lumpio-> 03:33:29 < elliott> # Pipermail assumes that message bodies contain US-ASCII text.
00:40:33 <Lumpio-> Good grief, what is this, the 80s?
00:42:45 <Arc_Koen> hey guys
00:43:04 <Arc_Koen> if I'm in the middle of making a language but it's not complete yet, should I make a wiki page for it or not?
00:43:10 <oerjan> the haskell.org pipermail definitely does _not_ format non-plain-ascii readably, i've noticed.
00:43:42 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: tradition says YES NO YES NO
00:43:44 <SHACHAF> @quote elliott unsafeCoerce
00:43:44 <lambdabot> elliott says: <elliott> I like how edwardk's answer to every question always goes "most abstract solution to the problem possible --> microoptimisation details". <elliott> I swear I've seen him go
00:43:44 <lambdabot> from category theory to unboxed types and unsafeCoerce in a single line of IRC.
00:43:57 <Arc_Koen> hmm that's an interesting answer oerjan
00:44:10 <elliott> <Lumpio-> Good grief, what is this, the 80s?
00:44:12 <elliott> Yes.
00:44:30 <Arc_Koen> I guess i'll wait till it's a little more presentable
00:44:35 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: we will appreciate if you use preview rather than saving every tiny change, however.
00:44:52 <Arc_Koen> yes of course
00:45:02 <elliott> Arc_Koen: I will present one guideline: the first version of the page should contain a little more detail than http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Ragaraja&oldid=33401.
00:45:25 <Arc_Koen> ok I'll try to top that
00:45:44 <oerjan> elliott: WHAT HAVE YOU DONE
00:45:50 <Arc_Koen> also, is their a name for languages which are based on data structure which behaviour is random?
00:47:02 <Arc_Koen> elliott: though it seems that older version of that page contain more details
00:47:26 <elliott> that's the oldest version of that page, in fact
00:47:45 <elliott> oerjan: So what's up, I am out of the loop. possibly out of several loops. all of the loops?
00:48:56 <oerjan> elliott: well Fueue has been up, several interpreters and programs were written, include a TC proof (by guess who)
00:49:19 <Arc_Koen> that was kind of weird
00:49:23 <oerjan> *including
00:49:44 <elliott> oerjan: I guess... SHACHAF.
00:50:12 <oerjan> i don't think atriq's interpreter is linked yet. (that's Taneb btw)
00:50:22 <Arc_Koen> I wake up one morning, check the fueue page, and it includes a section saying that it is turing complete... I come here, ask people what happened, and apparently the only sign was oerjan saying "another day, another TC proof" before going to sleep
00:50:23 <oerjan> elliott: a very ... something ... guess.
00:50:58 <elliott> Yes, I know about atriq. I'm not *that* out of the loop yet.
00:51:03 <Arc_Koen> nope I can see only mines on the page and I would very much like to see atriq's
00:51:09 <itidus21> a very capital guess
00:51:18 <elliott> Arc_Koen: oerjan likes to surprise us like that
00:51:25 <oerjan> i am pretty sure i mumbled something about underload (minus S) possibly being convertible to fueue before that
00:51:57 <SHACHAF> oerjan: Huh?
00:52:13 <Arc_Koen> also i found a truth machine in fueue on the truth machine's page, was that you?
00:52:16 <oerjan> SHACHAF: Huh what?
00:52:27 <oerjan> no i don't think that was me
00:52:34 <Arc_Koen> okay
00:53:02 <Arc_Koen> so I had an idea for a language where variables are shuffled every now and then
00:53:10 <Arc_Koen> has that been done before?
00:53:20 <SHACHAF> oerjan: What's wrong with guessing that I did a TC proof?
00:53:28 <SHACHAF> Is it because I don't care about esolangs?
00:53:29 <oerjan> no Taneb did the truth-machine back in february
00:53:34 <Arc_Koen> oh, ok
00:53:36 <SHACHAF> :-(
00:54:03 <oerjan> SHACHAF: it's not what i was hinting, anyway.
00:54:13 <Arc_Koen> so, variables are shuffled, like "it's annoying but deal with it, and try to prove that this language is still usable"
00:54:56 <oerjan> i don't recall precisely, there was one where the values of variables degraded...
00:55:05 <Arc_Koen> like inflation?
00:55:42 <Arc_Koen> (can't find anything about "degrade" or "degrading" or whatever on the wiki, though)
00:55:58 <oerjan> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Nondeterministic may have similar languages
00:56:07 <Arc_Koen> (also it's 3am here and I vaguely remember 4 hours ago when I told myself "let's go to sleep now", so i'll be off)
00:56:22 <itidus21> occasionally shuffling variables sounds original
00:56:58 <Arc_Koen> well basically the date structure is a queue + nine variables (or another arbitrary number)
00:57:05 <Arc_Koen> except that there is no "pop" function
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00:57:33 <Arc_Koen> but whenever one of the nine cells's value is 0, it is immediately filled with the next number in the queue
00:57:48 <Arc_Koen> immediately followed by all nine variables being shuffled
00:58:11 <SHACHAF> monqy: /nick MONQY
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00:58:23 <monqy> no
00:58:24 <elliott> monqy: happy occasion
00:58:27 <monqy> oh
00:58:28 <monqy> hi
00:58:33 <monqy> what's the occasion
00:58:35 <SHACHAF> monqy: Happy occasion!
00:58:36 <elliott> i died
00:58:41 <SHACHAF> monqy: It's time to capitalize on the occasion,.
00:58:55 <SHACHAF> /nick MONQY
00:58:58 <Arc_Koen> anyway, have a nice good end of the night or whatever time it is
00:58:59 <SHACHAF> elliott: /nick ELLIOTT
00:59:05 <SHACHAF> oerjan: /nick OERJAN
00:59:05 <elliott> Arc_Koen: it's 2 am :(
00:59:31 <oerjan> hm i cannot find the language i was thinking of
01:02:23 <Arc_Koen> I've seen several joke languages along the lines of "instructions have a random behaviour" but they were nothing more than jokes
01:02:58 <monqy> were they even jokes?
01:03:26 <oerjan> there is Sortle but it does the opposite of shuffling :)
01:04:24 <elliott> monqy: no the ywere odd jokes ha ha
01:04:26 <oerjan> "•Each Sorted! program is, in fact, sorted, albeit randomly. Hence the name!"
01:05:19 <elliott> gerson kurz right
01:05:36 <oerjan> yes
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01:09:25 <Sgeo> I'm confused about Sortle
01:09:34 <Sgeo> The hello world example
01:10:00 <Sgeo> When hello renames itself to "hello, world", doesn't that get re-inserted before quit, and so shouldn't it get evaluated again?
01:10:35 <Sgeo> Hmm, I guess I'm uncertain about where evaluation resumes
01:11:29 <itidus21> i just had a sort of idea, while looking at huby.. a language which enforces a specific coding style
01:12:50 <itidus21> i was thinking of c or c++ in particular.. especially forcing you to use exact names for the arguments to main
01:13:40 <itidus21> so **argv would be valid, but *argv[] would be invalid and **argsv would be invalid
01:15:28 <hagb4rd> you can only achieve the final state of sophisticated huby coding while beeing naked
01:16:29 <itidus21> well.. i was looking at huby and i thought... what if it had code around it to make it a c polyglot?
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01:17:25 <itidus21> then i thought, what if you had to copy certain text exactly at the start and end of a huby program
01:23:05 <SHACHAF> kmc: 18:22 <typoclass> SIGCHAF: thanks
01:23:44 <oerjan> Sgeo: looking at the comments of the perl implementation, control passes to the next expression after the _new_ place of the currently evaluated one
01:23:57 <oerjan> unless it was deleted entirely
01:24:02 <elliott> kill -SIGCHAF SHACHAF
01:24:23 <SHACHAF> Segmentation fault (core dumped)
01:24:56 <Sgeo> oerjan, spec should say that
01:35:25 <zzo38> Can you put support to configure number of bits in a byte, in LLVM?
01:35:30 <zzo38> I asked LLVM IRC
01:38:04 <zzo38> They did not respond to me.
01:46:01 <zzo38> RogueVM uses 32 bits in a byte so it would be useful to allow you to set bits in a byte to whatever you want, so this way it can combine for RogueVM, as well as systems with other numbers such as 36 bits, 7 bits, 18 bits, or whatever else it is.
01:46:52 <oerjan> zzo38: does it have a separate concept of words? otherwise why not just declare 32 bits to be a word.
01:47:10 <oerjan> since it's 4 ordinary bytes
01:47:48 <oerjan> i guess you'd need to turn off byte-specific instructions somehow
01:48:02 <Sgeo> Does anyone in here play Backgammon?
01:48:12 <Sgeo> Actually, I think I became interested in Backgammon because of here
01:50:57 <zzo38> oerjan: RogueVM has no separate concept of words, but it calls 32 bits a byte, and 8 bits an octet. There are some instructions that deal with 64-bit numbers, but usually 32-bit numbers are dealt with. Addresses point to 32-bit words which is why it is called a byte.
01:51:42 <zzo38> But yes those things about LLVM are the thing to consider; I would want it to be part of the machine specification, to specify the number of bits in a byte, defaulting to 8 (current LLVM always uses 8 as far as I know, and this cannot be changed).
01:54:10 <zzo38> Sgeo: I know Backgammon; someone showed me how to play, once. I have thought of making Backgammon Card, too. I sometimes play on X-BIT.
01:55:05 <zzo38> (The backgammon against computer played on X-BIT does not implement the doubling cube, and the person who showed me how to play at first also did not know how to use doubling cube, although I have later read a book to learn what it means.)
01:55:47 <zzo38> oerjan: Octets are mostly used in describing the file format of RogueVM (the file format is actually a ZIP archive).
01:56:03 <pikhq> zzo38: You could just use more normal terminology: you deal in 8 bit bytes and 32 bit words.
01:56:28 <zzo38> pikhq: A "byte" is defined as the unit that the address points to.
01:57:00 <pikhq> zzo38: A "byte" is more commonly defined as an octet, regardless of how addressing works.
01:57:49 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes that is also one way it is defined; but I use "byte" in the other meaning. (I think the PDP-11 or something actually had another different meaning of "byte" than these two.)
01:58:39 <zzo38> Thanks for the comments anyways; perhaps I should mention it with "N.B." or something like that to avoid confusion.
01:58:55 <zzo38> (It is currently mentioned in the introduction, but not with "N.B.".)
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02:26:21 <Sgeo> In a luck-involving game such as backgammon, do the future rolls of the dice count as "hidden information"?
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02:33:03 <oerjan> Sgeo: i don't think so, no
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02:48:05 <oerjan> :t runST
02:48:06 <lambdabot> forall a. (forall s. ST s a) -> a
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04:24:48 <Sgeo> I sometimes feel like my thought processes are glacial: Slow but powerful
04:24:54 <Sgeo> It's the "slow" part that distresses me
04:25:07 <Sgeo> I feel like I sometimes rely on cached mental formulas to do stuff quickly
04:25:26 <zzo38> I also think slow sometimes (but sometimes faster)
04:25:40 <zzo38> Those other stuff too yes I do sometimes too
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05:16:43 <SHACHAF> kmc: seen kmc
05:31:09 <elliott> `welcome elliott
05:31:10 <elliott> oops
05:31:12 <elliott> `welcome Eladith
05:31:13 <HackEgo> elliott: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
05:31:15 <HackEgo> Eladith: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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06:16:09 <oklopol> Sgeo: at least in my game theory book randomness and hidden information are different chapters :P
06:19:42 <oklopol> perhaps it's only hidden information if it's not hidden to everyone?
06:25:22 <fizzie> elliott: I do have some Postfix installations, if that counts.
06:26:32 <elliott> fizzie: too bad i worked it out i think
06:26:37 <elliott> fizzie: why does it all suck and crap
06:26:39 <elliott> that's my real question
06:26:39 <elliott> of life
06:26:40 <elliott> :(
06:26:42 <elliott> im sleep
06:27:11 <fizzie> I don't have life installations, so I don't really know about that.
06:27:49 <zzo38> pikhq_: I added "N.B." for the byte meaning 32 bits in this document since it is an important note ("N.B." is Latin for "important note")
06:28:03 <elliott> I.N.
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06:32:47 <fizzie> "Important, not."
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07:07:21 <zzo38> Have you ever made a C code including things like this: struct { void*x[sizeof(short)==2?1:-5]; }
07:07:48 <SHACHAF> Compile-time assert?
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07:09:18 <zzo38> SHACHAF: Yes that is what it will do
07:09:32 <SHACHAF> zzo38: I think the conventional way to write it isn't quite like that.
07:09:40 <SHACHAF> But I'm not surprised that you would write it like that. :-)
07:10:12 <zzo38> But you cannot use sizeof in the preprocessor!
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07:18:14 <fizzie> If you're writing C11 (I'm sure everybody is by now, it's already 2012!) you can write it as _Static_assert(sizeof(short) == 2, "my shorts are the wrong size");
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08:18:07 <atriq> Is "Juan de Vojnkov" someone on here?
08:18:13 <atriq> Because Google+ thinks I may know him
08:21:58 <atriq> Oh dear god what is PEX
08:22:01 <atriq> *PEZ
08:23:34 <atriq> Also, is it bad that I call the Windows key on my keyboard "the flag button"?
08:27:26 <fizzie> By PEZ do you mean the candy dispenser things?
08:27:58 <atriq> I mean the thing that is referred to in the topic
08:28:08 <atriq> Which apparently has something to do with candy
08:28:09 <fizzie> Oh. Well, it does mention candy.
08:28:09 <atriq> So maybe
08:28:38 <fizzie> PEZ are these spring-loaded things where you stack candy to, and then you turn the "head" of it, and candy comes out.
08:28:50 <fizzie> It's kind of like killing small critters by twisting their necks, and then candy.
08:29:20 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hello_Kitty_PEZ_dispenser_open_II.jpg -- kind of like this in action.
08:29:48 <fizzie> Though from what I seem to recall, the candy used to be pretty much white always, no matter what the official flavour was. That's very pink.
08:30:28 <atriq> How odd
08:30:40 <fizzie> "Some Pez dispensers can sell for large amounts as collectibles. The highest verifiable sale of a Pez dispenser was a private sale of a Mickey Mouse softhead at $7000 between an Austrian dealer and a US collector."
08:30:58 <fizzie> "Conventions are also annually held in Austria, Finland, Sweden, and in the US in Missouri, California, Minnesota, Connecticut and South Carolina."
08:31:04 <fizzie> What's Finland doing on that list?
08:31:06 <fizzie> Weirds.
08:31:30 <atriq> Maybe they're mixing Finland up with a thin lad
08:31:44 <atriq> Who collects Pezs
08:32:03 <fizzie> Anyway, they sell also candy-only packages, so you can keep using your favourite dispenser.
08:32:31 <fizzie> I think I have a single PEZ device at home.
08:33:57 <fizzie> As for the key, I've heard it called the "logo key" by people who don't want to reference Windows, but apparently "flag key" is used too.
08:34:21 <atriq> It confuses people who I'm talking to
08:34:28 <atriq> When I say "press the flag key"
08:34:32 <atriq> "The what?"
08:34:40 <atriq> "You know, the one with the flag on it"
08:34:49 <atriq> "Oh, the start button"
08:34:55 <atriq> "Yeah, on the keyboard"
08:36:41 <fizzie> You can start calling it the "super key", that's what it usually produces.
08:37:40 <fizzie> (Caution: Might also confuse people.)
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08:46:12 <atriq> Well, that was all I had to say
08:46:13 <atriq> Bye
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12:00:23 <Arc_Koen> @tell oerjan is http://esolangs.org/wiki/Entropy the language you were talking about?
12:00:24 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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12:05:40 <atriq> @messages
12:05:40 <lambdabot> You don't have any new messages.
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12:10:56 <Arc_Koen> atriq: so I haven't seen your haskell fueue interpreter
12:11:47 <atriq> I'm doing a thing with it
12:12:00 <atriq> And I really ought to make back ups, but I don't
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12:57:53 <Sgeo> Woah wait what
12:58:14 <Sgeo> XChat is abandoned and XChat-WDK got renamed to HexChat and seeks to take over?
13:02:29 <fizzie> The former was I thought kind of old news. At least there hasn't been any releases in quite a while.
13:04:54 <atriq> HexChat!?
13:05:09 <atriq> For people from Hexham?
13:09:25 <fizzie> For cursed people?!
13:09:40 <atriq> For people cursed to be from Hexham!?
13:16:03 <fizzie> A fate worse than death?!
13:16:51 <atriq> Not really
13:17:00 <atriq> We've got a swimming pool and a bowling alley
13:17:07 <atriq> And a lot of restaurants
13:17:25 <atriq> So, unless you need tex-mex and want a 100m swimming pool, Hexham's pretty good
13:17:50 <atriq> #hexham-tourist-board
13:19:44 <fizzie> Oh, no tex-mex? I thought that was kind of everywhere.
13:19:53 <atriq> Nah
13:20:23 <fizzie> There was one in Järvenpää, which is kind of nowhere.
13:20:24 <atriq> We've got French, Greek, two Italian (plus a take-away), Thai, Chinese..
13:20:41 <atriq> Three Chinese and a take-away
13:20:42 <fizzie> Well, I suppose it was kind of Tex-Mex/Finnish ice-hockey bar hybrid.
13:20:49 <atriq> The take away has nice chips
13:20:50 <fizzie> But it did look a bit out of place.
13:21:15 <fizzie> And I suppose Järvenpää is larger, population 38,993.
13:21:53 <atriq> We don't have a climbing wall, either
13:22:08 <atriq> But there are two small football teams(!)
13:26:28 <Gregor> NO TEX-MEX
13:26:29 <Gregor> ?!?!
13:26:46 <atriq> No
13:26:50 <atriq> No fast food, either
13:27:00 <Gregor> Really? Wow.
13:27:08 <Gregor> Or maybe that's not so unusual for the UK *shrugs*
13:27:13 <atriq> McDonald's tried to open one, but they couldn't get planning permission
13:27:17 <Gregor> In the US, a small town without some burger joint is incomprehensible.
13:27:18 <atriq> It is pretty unusual for the UK
13:27:49 <Gregor> Man. No fast food, and, because you're British, you don't know how to cook eggs.
13:27:53 <Gregor> How the hell do you Hexhamites live?
13:28:03 <atriq> Slowly, and without eggs
13:28:27 <atriq> Of course
13:28:50 <Gregor> Hard to argue with that logic *shrugs*
13:29:13 <atriq> We've got a few chippies, and they're kind of like fast food places
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13:34:54 <itidus21> even i can cook eggs.. i know 2 styles! hard boiled and fried.
13:35:52 <itidus21> my dad was keen on the idea of cooking eggs inside a sandwich maker, but that just doesn't work man
13:37:58 <Gregor> “Fried” is at least five styles. If you don't agree, then you don't know how to cook eggs ;)
13:38:24 <Gregor> (At lest six if you categorize “scrambled” within “fried”)
13:38:28 <itidus21> ok ill be specific, i know how to take a frying pan, put some oil in it, and break an egg into it
13:38:39 <itidus21> and end up with something edible
13:38:48 <Gregor> See, even Brits can get that far, but they don't know how to cook an egg.
13:38:58 <Gregor> Because {under,over} {easy,medium,hard} are all different.
13:39:38 <Gregor> And they don't recognize that breaking a yolk can be a good thing.
13:39:55 <fizzie> We don't know how to cook an egg either.
13:40:18 <Gregor> It's reaaaaaaaally fun bringing foreigners to breakfast restaurants by the way.
13:40:27 <Gregor> “How do you want your eggs?” “... cooked?”
13:40:59 <fizzie> Though we do tend to have these "no-brand" in-a-non-mobile-trailer kind of fast food "places" quite often.
13:41:25 <Gregor> fizzie: Food carts! Food carts can be FANTASTIC (or horrifying)
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13:42:03 <fizzie> Ours are on the determinedly non-fantastic end of the scale. Though I understand late night their queues make for the most popular places to get a knife in you.
13:42:35 <Gregor> Super!
13:42:38 <fizzie> At least if you make the mistake of opening your mouth.
13:42:55 <Arc_Koen> Gregor: the only brits I've seen cooking eggs took the frying pan, broke an egg on it, and then put oil on it
13:42:57 <fizzie> http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grillikioski
13:43:15 <Gregor> Arc_Koen: So they can't even get that part right???
13:43:28 <Gregor> fizzie: Well, if you ever find yourself in Portland, Oregon, do yourself a favor and don't shirk the food carts.
13:43:35 <itidus21> Arc_Koen: oh, i at least took the effort of heating the pan first, and i got the oil out of a can with a broken nozzle
13:43:45 <fizzie> Gregor: What a coincidence: I'll be flying to Portland, Oregon this Saturday.
13:44:09 <fizzie> (And then back out from there next... Thursday.)
13:44:11 <Arc_Koen> Gregor: in their defense it was only a student house restaurant
13:44:17 <Gregor> fizzie: Oh? Whyzzat?
13:44:30 <itidus21> it was a mess, i felt like a cook from one of those horror movies who serves nothing actually edible
13:44:32 <fizzie> Gregor: There's the Interspeech 2012 conference Sun-Thu.
13:45:07 <Gregor> Where in Portland?
13:45:36 <fizzie> Some Hilton Tower This Or That.
13:45:38 <fizzie> "Hilton Portland & Executive Tower".
13:45:43 <Gregor> Ah, the Hilton.
13:45:56 <Gregor> There's a block o' food carts about four blocks up from that.
13:45:58 <itidus21> basically i can't cook eggs good enough to serve to others
13:46:51 <fizzie> There will probably be colleagues interested about lunch, I'll recommend the cart thing. Though I seem to recall reading something about Portland's food carts in wikitravel or somewhere, so I suppose they're kind of known.
13:47:07 <Gregor> They are. It's no myth.
13:47:56 <fizzie> Okay, off to go buy some just-in-case dollars. ->
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15:03:12 <Phantom_Hoover> <atriq> But there are two small football teams(!)
15:03:25 <Phantom_Hoover> by small do you mean they only have 8 players
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15:12:44 <AnotherTest> Hello
15:12:44 <lambdabot> AnotherTest: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
15:12:52 <AnotherTest> @messages
15:12:52 <lambdabot> oerjan said 19h 38m 58s ago: No. + = 43, . = 46
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15:30:00 <fizzie> > ord <$> "+."
15:30:01 <lambdabot> [43,46]
15:30:11 <fizzie> He's right!
15:33:02 <AnotherTest> Well that depends of his definition of "right after"
15:35:13 <AnotherTest> but for an alphabet consisting of only alphanumeric characters and + and ., ordered by their ASCII values; '.' would be right after '+' for sure
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18:49:57 <kmc> so is MySQL the PHP of databases
18:50:08 <AnotherTest1> yes
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18:52:15 <kmc> that was my impression as well
18:52:22 <kmc> have googled the phrase "PHP of databases" and found many people who agree
18:52:38 <AnotherTest> Well it's most widely used
18:52:43 <kmc> but this is not exactly an unbiased way to decide on MySQL vs. PostgreSQL
18:52:45 <AnotherTest> just like PHP
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18:56:08 <fizzie> What's the PHP of freenode channels? (... #php?)
18:57:25 <AnotherTest> Yes.
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19:01:07 <atriq> What's the PHP of server-side web languages?
19:01:20 <nortti> php
19:01:20 <AnotherTest> PHP?
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19:03:32 <kmc> what's the PHP of analogies
19:03:43 <itidus21> apparently windows is the php of operating systems
19:03:46 <kmc> probably car analogies
19:04:13 <kmc> or monad tutorials
19:04:23 <fizzie> fungot: What's the PHP of IRC bots?
19:04:24 <fungot> fizzie: yes 15 minutes, throws out the tea, and steeps for 15 minutes
19:05:21 <AnotherTest> what the php of esoteric programming languages?
19:05:23 <fizzie> I had a script somewhere that could use fungot to continue sentences. It can be used to determine things. (Just things, in general.)
19:05:23 <fungot> fizzie: can you read from it......
19:05:25 <AnotherTest> *what's
19:06:05 <itidus21> "Windows is the PHP of operating systems, it turned up late, got real popular, got tons of shit supporting it and it's still shit."
19:06:34 <AnotherTest> So what would apple be like?
19:06:48 <AnotherTest> Linux would be like the Perl of operating systems.
19:07:33 <itidus21> "I had to change aux to auxm as Windows does not allow files named aux. After that the bare mode worked." "You should've seen my face when I realized you were speaking the truth :) Is windows the PHP of operating systems or what?!"
19:08:41 <nortti> AnotherTest: what would be lisp of operating systems?
19:08:52 <nortti> forth of operating systems is forth
19:09:04 <itidus21> Plan 9 is the LISP of operating systems.
19:09:12 <itidus21> ^quoting google
19:09:16 <nortti> ?
19:09:39 <nortti> well I have been wanting to try plan9 for some time
19:09:43 <AnotherTest> nortti: solaris - long gone :p
19:09:53 <fizzie> Genera is kind of also the LISP of operating systems.
19:10:09 <nortti> AnotherTest: lisp isn't long gone
19:10:12 <AnotherTest> It should be an operating systems with lots of variants
19:10:15 <nortti> AnotherTest: neither is solaris
19:10:21 <AnotherTest> That makes me think of linux
19:10:42 <AnotherTest> but since Perl already is :(
19:10:46 <fizzie> Linux: the everything of operating systems.
19:11:22 <nortti> why there isn't a x86 port of genera?
19:11:25 <nortti> it is awesome
19:11:30 <itidus21> and, more comprehensively
19:11:33 <itidus21> Tcl is the scripting language of Tk, Visual Basic of Windows, (a form of) Lisp of Emacs, PHP of web servers, and Java and Javascript of web browsers.
19:11:44 <AnotherTest> internet explorer is also the php of browsers
19:12:19 <AnotherTest> bye!
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19:12:31 <nortti> and now I am wondering why itidus21's message was hilighted
19:13:01 <Lumpio-> I haven't seen a single valid use for Java in a browser in a long time.
19:13:02 <itidus21> i can help
19:13:09 <itidus21> nortti: ill try a binary search
19:13:14 <fizzie> Old highlight set for "visual basic" to catch all those interesting discussions?
19:13:26 <itidus21> Tcl is the scripting language of Tk, Visual Basic of Windows, (a form of) Lisp of Emacs,
19:13:33 <nortti> that hilights
19:13:39 <itidus21> Visual Basic of Windows, (a form of) Lisp of Emacs,
19:13:42 <nortti> yes
19:13:48 <itidus21> Visual Basic
19:13:53 <nortti> no
19:13:56 <itidus21> humm
19:14:04 <itidus21> of Windows, (a form of) Lisp of Emacs,
19:14:07 <nortti> yes
19:14:12 <itidus21> of Windows, (a form of)
19:14:15 <nortti> no
19:14:20 <itidus21> Lisp of Emacs,
19:14:23 <nortti> yes
19:14:26 <itidus21> :o
19:14:28 <fizzie> Emacs?
19:14:34 <nortti> no
19:14:36 <fizzie> Lisp?
19:14:38 <nortti> yes
19:14:47 <fizzie> Interesting.
19:16:21 <nortti> I seem to have hilights for nortti, oonbotti, dfc, touhou, 666, forth, lisp, glibc
19:16:42 <itidus21> and foo
19:17:00 <nortti> yes
19:18:05 <nortti> oh. pc98 also
19:29:21 <Arc_Koen> hey does anyone know if there's a way to force a column in a class:wikitable to be a certain larger? (so that no newlines are inserted)
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19:38:14 <nortti__> fizzie: do you know why I'm banned from ##asm?
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20:00:57 <zzo38> I have thought of backgammon card rules: You use the cards 1 to 6 from a deck of cards of four suits (24 cards in total). You have eighteen stones, four of which are suited (one for each suit) and the rest unsuited. Each player is dealt five cards, four face down and one face up. Doubles are only redoubled if both cards are of the same color as well.
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20:13:15 <atriq> Sgeo, thing!
20:13:19 <atriq> Thing-y thing!
20:13:30 <atriq> Tell the channel Homestucks!
20:19:07 <nortti> http://m.engadget.com/2012/09/04/unreleased-nokia-lauta-qwerty-slider-emerges/ I hope it is really called lauta and that is not just something lost in translation
20:24:08 <fizzie> nortti: The underlines, but I guess you found that out.
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20:51:19 <zzo38> I realized, the reason the person who shown me how to play backgammon, did not know the doubling cube, as well as a few other variants, is because it is Persian rules. Persian rules do not use doubling cube, and a piece hitting an opponent's piece in your home cannot move again on the same turn.
20:54:25 <Arc_Koen> weird
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20:55:23 <Arc_Koen> about the doubling cube, many strategy or tactic games could use it as a variant
20:56:04 <Arc_Koen> as long as you can have something similar to backgammons 1-2-3 points in a leg (a simple victory, a gammon or a backgammon)
20:56:05 <Phantom_Hoover> There... is a Kickstarter for a Homestuck adventure game. By Hussie.
20:58:27 <zzo38> (Also in the Persian rules, you cannot score three points per game; only up to two are allowed.)
20:58:48 <atriq> Yes
20:58:48 <atriq> That was the thing
20:58:48 <atriq> The thingy thing
20:59:47 <atriq> Which I have spoken of
21:00:24 <Phantom_Hoover> is this real life
21:00:32 <atriq> I...
21:00:34 <atriq> I think it is
21:01:05 <Phantom_Hoover> counterargument, what kind of real life includes a homestuck adventure game
21:01:21 <atriq> Obviously, a really awesome one.
21:01:31 <Phantom_Hoover> I dunno, they're going to cut all the cool corners.
21:02:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Like the Alchemiter.
21:05:40 <Phantom_Hoover> I also note that they inexplicably void shipping charges to Fiji.
21:06:27 <atriq> Because Hussie ships Fiji
21:07:12 -!- nooga has joined.
21:07:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, as of earlier today he ships everything.
21:09:05 <atriq> Yeah, the Titanic, the Red Oktober, ALL OF THEM
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21:10:19 <Phantom_Hoover> all ships are cannon
21:15:32 <itidus21> real life is overall stranger than homestuck
21:15:43 <atriq> ...
21:15:49 <atriq> It's a close one
21:16:02 <itidus21> infact, homestuck is a part of real life, giving an indication of just how strange real life is :P
21:16:16 <Phantom_Hoover> OK this thing has earned $156,000 in two hours.
21:16:27 <atriq> Yeah
21:16:29 <atriq> Crazy
21:16:36 <atriq> None of those dollars are mine
21:16:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Also itidus21 is right I'm afraid, Homestuck is mostly confusing due to lack of a time slider during flashes.
21:17:24 <itidus21> well real life has spacetime
21:17:34 <atriq> Homestuck as paradoxspacetime
21:17:41 <atriq> Anyway
21:17:52 <atriq> It's getting to the time when I don't let myself post on Tumblr
21:18:16 <itidus21> there is no way that homestuck's finite reality can be as weird as the infinite reality it is embedded within
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21:18:30 <itidus21> or is there
21:18:37 <oerjan> certainly not!
21:18:37 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
21:18:41 <oerjan> @messages
21:18:41 <lambdabot> Arc_Koen said 9h 18m 17s ago: is http://esolangs.org/wiki/Entropy the language you were talking about?
21:18:55 <Arc_Koen> I think it is
21:19:23 <oerjan> oh right it is
21:19:25 <itidus21> im afraid of homestuck in a way
21:19:35 <itidus21> thats why im getting all defensive
21:20:07 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: i was looking just at Category:Nondeterministic, not Category:Probabilistic, so i didn't find it
21:20:58 <Arc_Koen> I was look just at "Random page"
21:21:02 <Phantom_Hoover> <itidus21> thats why im getting all defensive
21:21:11 <Arc_Koen> and I found a language that's random!
21:21:11 <oerjan> heh
21:21:27 <Phantom_Hoover> you truly are an odd fellow iti
21:23:27 <itidus21> i'm a bit sick in me head
21:23:33 * oerjan makes probabilistic a subcategory of nondeterministic
21:26:30 <Arc_Koen> oh, you just did that
21:26:44 * Arc_Koen was thinking "wait, something's *different*
21:27:26 <Arc_Koen> so anyway, i made a page for the language I was talking about yesterday when you brought up Entropy: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Knight_Shuffling_Tower
21:29:08 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: well it's the nondeterministic category, you cannot expect it to be the same each tim
21:29:11 <oerjan> *+e
21:29:17 <atriq> Goodnight
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21:29:19 <Arc_Koen> haha
21:32:03 <Arc_Koen> oh yeah I know why it felt weird
21:32:52 <Arc_Koen> I had category:probabilistic and category:nondeterministic opened in two tabs; nondeterministic had probabilistic as a subcategory but probabilistic did not have nondeterministic as a parent category
21:36:34 <Arc_Koen> so I was wondering, are queue-based languages usually turing-complete? for instance on the stack page it is said that programs using two stacks are usually turing-complete; what about languages using a single queue?
21:40:17 <kmc> the queue analogue of a pushdown automaton is turing complete
21:40:24 <kmc> iirc
21:40:39 <kmc> because you can easily cycle through the whole queue, which makes it like a random-access tape
21:41:02 <kmc> similarly you can treat two stacks as a tape which goes from the bottom of the first stack to the top, and then from the top of the second stack to the bottom
21:41:09 <kmc> such that you move on the tape by popping from one and pushing to the other
21:41:25 <kmc> and these are fun things to prove
21:41:37 <kmc> we had both of those on a problem set in computability and complexity
21:41:47 <oerjan> in fact one of our very simplest TC languages, BCT, is queue-based
21:42:16 <kmc> stephen wolfram trollface
21:43:20 <oerjan> when your language isn't specifically more suited for emulating something else, emulating BCT is a good bet for proving TC-ness
21:44:38 <Arc_Koen> intersting
21:45:02 <oerjan> and yes, more general tag systems are what was used to prove rule 110 "universal" which stephen wolfram wrote about in his book
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21:45:10 <Arc_Koen> new plan: I'm gonna prove the current version of kst turing-complete and then add some restrictions to make it less easily turing-complete
21:45:31 <oerjan> (universal isn't quite the same as TC because this required an infinite setup)
21:46:28 <Arc_Koen> I don't actually know what wolfram's rules are - I started looking into it once and I don't even remember why I stopped
21:47:25 <Arc_Koen> wait, in bct the datastring and the programstring are two strings? or is it the same?
21:48:07 <oerjan> two strings
21:48:44 <oerjan> i think there was a variant which unified them, but i don't think anyone's managed to prove it TC. unless i did and forgot it :P
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21:49:53 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: also implementing a tape as two stacks, then the stacks as (linked) lists is a nice way of getting a purely functional tape in ocaml or haskell
21:50:20 <Arc_Koen> yes that's what they call a zipper isn't it?
21:50:20 <oerjan> one which can be extended automatically
21:50:59 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: i guess that's true, although i think this may be older than the zipper concept, but maybe not.
21:52:13 <oerjan> while getting a purely functional queue is a bitch in comparison
21:52:52 <oerjan> (haskell's Data.Sequence uses "finger trees" for that)
21:53:04 <oerjan> *+module
21:54:35 <oerjan> unless you want to reverse the entire data structure when wrapping around, then you can use the tape trick modified. finger trees have less latency or something.
21:55:07 <Arc_Koen> well in Ocaml you can easily implement linked lists so I don't see why a purely functional queue would be so hard to do
21:55:28 * Arc_Koen has no idea what he's talking about, though
21:56:03 <Arc_Koen> on a totally unrelated matter: if I come across a category, say http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Concurrent_programming , that's not on the Special:Categorization page, should I add it there or what?
21:56:55 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: the thing is you cannot purely functionally _modify_ a two-way linked list efficiently
21:57:03 <oerjan> while it's easy with mutation
21:57:12 <Arc_Koen> two-way?
21:57:22 <oerjan> links both forward and backward
21:57:24 <oerjan> oh hm
21:57:27 <Arc_Koen> a queue needs only one way
21:57:44 <oerjan> well right. you cannot easily modify the end of a one-way one, either. :P
21:57:58 <Arc_Koen> yep probably not :/
21:58:18 <Arc_Koen> I was think a deque would need two-way, but when I think about it a deque is kind of the same thing as two stacks
21:58:48 <Arc_Koen> ah hum maybe not
21:59:00 <Arc_Koen> aaaaand it's late so good night
21:59:16 <Arc_Koen> (if I'm still at 3am please swat me)
22:00:47 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: technically that category wasn't added properly, i see. we're supposed to discuss such things on Esolang talk:Categorization
22:01:04 <Arc_Koen> yes that's what I've come to understand
22:02:35 <oerjan> a deque definitely needs something like two-way (or finger trees)
22:03:10 <oerjan> i took the chance with Probabilistic as that was added by our former administrator
22:03:53 <oerjan> i suppose Concurrent_programming is only a couple years younger
22:04:12 <Arc_Koen> how about a one-way cyclic list
22:04:14 <oerjan> although i'm not sure exactly _where_ it would fit on the page, so i think it still needs discussion.
22:04:22 <Arc_Koen> (that's how Ocaml Queue module is implemented)
22:05:12 <Arc_Koen> Concurrent_programming is a subcategory of programming techniques - in my opinion it's more something like a paradigm or something
22:05:25 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: no - how would you remove the end element with a one-way cyclic list?
22:05:33 <oerjan> you cannot get the second last easily
22:05:38 <Arc_Koen> oh, true
22:06:16 <Arc_Koen> but you can push at both ends and pop from one end out of two
22:06:25 <Arc_Koen> so that 75% works
22:07:15 <oerjan> heh
22:07:25 <Arc_Koen> though that has nothing to do with the queue being cyclic
22:25:43 <oerjan> <Arc_Koen> hey does anyone know if there's a way to force a column in a class:wikitable to be a certain larger? (so that no newlines are inserted)
22:26:33 <Arc_Koen> yes I was quite annoyed by the first column being one-word large and the second being one-page large
22:28:19 <oerjan> on the widest cell in the column, put style="white-space:nowrap"
22:30:13 <oerjan> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Qdeql&diff=31204&oldid=31190 shows how i used that in Qdeql before ehird added a simpler way to get preformatted code
22:30:28 <oerjan> *get it for preformatted code
22:31:25 <oerjan> which means, btw, that if your column contains preformatted code, you may want to use the {| class="wikitable plainpres" method instead
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22:32:10 <oerjan> hm which it is. let me fix that for you.
22:32:33 <Arc_Koen> was it so obvious that I did not understood?
22:32:37 <Arc_Koen> understand*
22:32:59 <oerjan> um you didn't?
22:33:08 <Arc_Koen> hum I'm trying to
22:33:44 <oerjan> anyway it's a method that was added specifically for our wiki, because we have all these tables with code in them :)
22:33:45 <Arc_Koen> it's http://esolangs.org/wiki/Knight_Shuffling_Tower : the function tables, especially the conditionals/loops one, have a very thin first column which is annoying especially for the for loop
22:37:52 <oerjan> done
22:38:13 <Arc_Koen> so you replaced "code" with "pre"
22:38:20 <oerjan> and added plainpres
22:38:34 <Arc_Koen> what does it change?
22:38:56 <oerjan> it removes the border and margins around <pre>s
22:39:10 <oerjan> so they look almost like code
22:39:48 <Arc_Koen> hmmm ok
22:39:49 <oerjan> but can still be multiline. also they don't change the background, which matters in ! fields
22:40:15 <oerjan> *! cells
22:40:29 <Arc_Koen> and what does space:nowrap does?
22:41:11 <oerjan> white-space:nowrap is a more general way of preventing wrapping
22:42:48 <oerjan> it needs to be added to the widest cell in the column, but it still got so ugly for the Qdeql tables that ehird made the new method which is easier
22:43:15 <oerjan> oh well actually much of the ugliness was to avoid the background changing
22:43:58 <oerjan> oh not to mention the horrible &nbsp;s
22:44:07 <kmc> lending credibility to my claim that MySQL is the PHP of databases is the fact that MySQL advocates and PHP advocates have similar responses when you confront them with bizarre behavior from their respective programs
22:44:13 <kmc> at least, in skimming a few "MySQL sucks" threads
22:45:01 <kmc> http://www.flickr.com/photos/raindrift/sets/72157629492908038/
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22:56:11 * oerjan adds a mention of plainpres to Help:Editing
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23:03:15 <Arc_Koen> well thanks for all the help
23:03:37 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: also don't hesitate to come back for a round in frc :)
23:03:47 <Arc_Koen> and have a good night everyone
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23:25:40 * oerjan recalls his thesis advisor could make cheese soufflé
23:26:13 <oerjan> mainly because his wife refused to make it for him
23:26:49 <zzo38> I realized in RogueVM I have only assigned four addressing modes even though it is three bits, so now I have added four more modes: Double-indirect by address, two registers indirect, R0-R3 with 16-bit offset, R0-R3 with 16-bit offset and reverse.
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23:27:03 <zzo38> I also wrote some things about assembly syntax.
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23:44:47 <itidus21> one possible scenario is
23:45:13 <itidus21> bob beats up tom
23:46:05 <itidus21> a con artist approaches tom infront of bob with a surefire getrich scheme
23:46:20 <zzo38> Who are they? What getrich scheme is it?
23:46:25 <itidus21> the con artist has convinced bob, but not tom
23:46:36 <FreeFull> Probably some pyramid scheme
23:46:55 <zzo38> Does he have to wait until Tom gets back up?
23:46:56 <itidus21> so tom's arm now gets twisted to go along with the scheme
23:47:12 <itidus21> zzo38: oh.. ^beats up occasionally
23:47:18 <zzo38> OK.
23:47:21 <itidus21> i dont know a better way to say this
23:48:49 <itidus21> i think it means, sometimes people are under pressure from people around them to accept unreliable financial opportunities
23:49:23 <zzo38> OK
23:49:36 <itidus21> the people making these schemes will quickly catch onto this fact somehow
23:50:11 <itidus21> maybe theres no actual substance to what i'm saying
23:56:11 <zzo38> I was playing Dungeons&Dragons game today. Out-ambush the ambushers, out-assassinate the assassins, ...
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00:19:37 <Sgeo> pikhq, [expr] in a Lisp-family language. Good idea or bad idea?
00:19:47 <Sgeo> (Using lists of course, not strings.)
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01:02:28 <pikhq_> Sgeo: Okay I guess.
01:02:39 <pikhq_> Sgeo: I mean, it's basically giving you an arithmetic expression DSL.
01:02:55 <pikhq_> Sgeo: Seems Lisp-like, even if it's not strictly speaking typical of Lisps.
01:03:46 <Sgeo> Hmm, #clojure people are now badmouthing Noir
01:03:52 <Sgeo> Should I be scared of Noir now?
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01:05:44 <kmc> people will badmouth anything which actually gets used
01:05:50 <kmc> try #haskell instead
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01:09:01 <Sgeo> "hiredman: Moses: it is stateful and doesn't compose, is full of all kinds of (add-whatever calls) that need to happen in a certain order etc"
01:13:26 <Sgeo> And the creator of Noir is currently in #clojure
02:10:30 <kmc> does he/she have anything to say to this criticism
02:30:27 * Sgeo isn't entirely sure
03:02:01 <zzo38> Did William Shakespeare write all of them by himself or is something else?
03:18:28 <zzo38> Probably he did write them. Not necessarily all by himself, though.
03:19:30 <zzo38> Nevertheless you got his name wrong. His name is Wilm Shaxpr.
03:21:30 <kmc> wilm shapr
03:25:33 <oerjan> i shall only refer (again?) to http://sheldoncomics.com/archive/070810.html
03:27:15 <kmc> heh
03:27:20 <kmc> spelling wasn't really... a thing
03:27:22 <kmc> back then
03:28:02 <oerjan> what is spellyng, butte a foolishe endeavoure
03:28:47 <kmc> let no man put asunder what I believe is thee proper attyre for footballe
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03:37:53 <pikhq_> Gah. What insane bastard designed C++ IO.
03:38:08 <pikhq_> Its error handling is the most anemic I have seen in any language.
03:38:26 <pikhq_> Now, what would you expect? Exceptions, given that that's a C++ feature?
03:38:27 <pikhq_> No.
03:38:37 <pikhq_> There's an error flag.
03:38:44 <pikhq_> That is all the information you can get.
03:38:47 <pikhq_> There was an error.
03:38:58 <pikhq_> Was it a parse failure? Was it a catastrophic failure of disk?
03:39:02 <pikhq_> You have no way of knowing.
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03:45:33 <kmc> if it used exceptions people would also bitch and moan
03:45:44 <kmc> a lot of C++ users disable exceptions
03:45:49 <kmc> but yes, a single error flag is not adequate
03:46:10 <kmc> i'm something of a C++ apologist and I still use C stdio more often than not
03:48:07 <pikhq_> There is nothing to excuse C++'s IO, not even in terms of "they couldn't quite see *that* it would be bad".
03:48:21 <pikhq_> Which I think makes it nearly unique among C++ features.
03:48:36 <pikhq_> At least with the rest of them I can see that there was a good idea somewhere in there.
03:48:41 <pikhq_> Or at least good intentions.
03:49:10 <pikhq_> Anyways, I'm now taking a "C++ and object-oriented programming" class, so I feel bad just schleping out to C IO.
03:50:18 <oerjan> pikhq_: there's a place that'll pay well to use those as pavement
03:50:53 <sHACHAF> I hear IO streams were the motivation for references.
03:50:54 <pikhq_> Aaaand this (trivial) assignment is asking for error handling from its IO.
03:58:06 <kmc> sHACHAF: really?
03:59:44 <sHACHAF> kmc: It's true that I heard that, but only second- or third-hand.
04:02:06 <pikhq_> Also, the operator overloading of the bit shift operators is retarded.
04:02:08 <pikhq_> Retarded I say.
04:12:47 <kmc> sHACHAF: I wrote a little program using Xlib and XInput2
04:12:55 <kmc> to make my mouse cursor wrap at the edges of the screen
04:13:15 <sHACHAF> Hah.
04:13:18 <kmc> previously I was using Synergy for this purpose
04:13:20 <sHACHAF> Is it really better that way?
04:13:29 <kmc> is the screen better with wrapping? yes
04:13:45 <kmc> my desktop is 4960 pixels wide
04:14:22 <kmc> cutting the max travel distance in half is a big deal
04:16:35 <sHACHAF> That's a lot of pixels.
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04:38:29 * Sgeo re-pick-ups his lenses in clojure idea
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05:05:19 * Sgeo is getting kind of mean with #clojure
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06:10:56 <zzo38> Can computer be made that some components use data due to the exact timing of propagation delay, not later or earlier, because data is only available at such exact moment?
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06:15:28 <pikhq_> Didn't early computers actually use that effect for their RAM?
06:16:06 <pikhq_> zzo38: I think the answer is "yes, and it has been done"
06:16:27 <zzo38> Maybe they do, but I don't mean RAM; I mean for calculation of program counter.
06:16:58 <pikhq_> ... Huh.
06:17:05 <asiekierka> zzo38 - You COULD, with good enough timing and manual sterring of the counter
06:17:13 <asiekierka> that is, each opcode contains the next PC position after it
06:17:28 <asiekierka> then you could read the bytes required while the PC was travelling the circuit?
06:17:39 <pikhq_> Yeah, it seems like the sort of thing that's possible.
06:17:48 <zzo38> I was thinking make a linear feedback shift register?
06:18:06 <pikhq_> Perhaps not at all likely to be done, but you're only asking about the possibility. ;)
06:18:18 <asiekierka> zzo38: LFSR PC steering?
06:18:19 <asiekierka> ...
06:18:23 <asiekierka> That's actually a very neat idea
06:18:26 <zzo38> I don't know how well that would work, or what other way, but I have some ideas
06:18:28 <asiekierka> but then you have to shuffle every app
06:18:37 <asiekierka> But in theory, yes, an LFSR could work with a properly arranged program
06:18:44 <zzo38> pikhq_: Yes I am only asking about the possibility.
06:18:48 <asiekierka> But you still have the PC INSIDE the shift registers
06:18:50 <asiekierka> So what is the point
06:19:54 <zzo38> I meant such as, is just shifts over time by itself rather than requiring a clock, so it doesn't store the data and then wait for the next one
06:20:21 <asiekierka> So...
06:20:25 <asiekierka> You want to make a clockless CPU?
06:20:50 <zzo38> That is part of it
06:21:16 <asiekierka> That is actually a *very* interesting idea