←2012-06 2012-07 2012-08→ ↑2012 ↑all
2012-07-01
00:03:25 <itidus21> pretty cool http://www.digitalmzx.net/wiki/images/1/18/Sm4mzx_gameplay.png
00:04:33 -!- ais523 has changed nick to ais523\itexplode.
00:06:23 <zzo38> That is one MegaZeux game.
00:07:00 <zzo38> Without the animation of gameplay it does not explain the game well, though.
00:07:28 <itidus21> i think it's good when you can't infer much from a screenshot
00:07:46 <Vorpal> ais523\itexplode, what is up with that nick?
00:08:56 -!- edwardk has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
00:08:58 <zzo38> Do you like this game? http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/mzx1/ASCMZXTO/screen.png
00:09:40 <itidus21> that is the greatest computer game ever to exist
00:10:32 <zzo38> Are you sure?
00:11:37 <itidus21> no
00:11:39 <zzo38> Maybe you like this MegaZeux game? http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/mzx1/potionconf/potion_of_confusing.zip (Incomplete; you also need MegaZeux to run this game)
00:12:48 <itidus21> i have long ago abandoned enjoying fiction
00:13:48 <itidus21> i don't know what the trick is to enjoying fiction
00:15:18 <itidus21> when i was younger i used to believe that it was imbued with wisdom in some way
00:15:30 <itidus21> that i could get something out of it
00:17:00 <itidus21> that i could just enjoy it in and of itself
00:22:07 <Vorpal> itidus21, most fiction has nothing to do with wisdom (sure there are cases where there they are related)
00:22:13 <Vorpal> it is just for enjoyment
00:22:25 <Vorpal> itidus21, I guess you don't enjoy computer games or movies either then?
00:22:43 <Vorpal> nor fictional books
00:22:51 <itidus21> not as much as i once did
00:23:10 <Vorpal> oh well, everyone is different
00:23:13 <itidus21> comics i still dig!
00:23:46 <itidus21> maybe i can like them..
00:23:51 <itidus21> just not today
00:24:02 <Vorpal> comics? Never been into that
00:24:18 <Vorpal> itidus21, anyway that is equally fiction
00:24:26 -!- Patashu[Zzz] has changed nick to Patashu.
00:24:31 <zzo38> Computer game involve things other than just fictional story
00:24:57 <zzo38> (Some may not even involve story at all; or a story will be added on afterward and is not really a part of the game)
00:25:01 <itidus21> im feeling too sleepy to make sense.. but well i had enouhg sleep
00:25:07 <Vorpal> zzo38, yes... but a story is an important part of a lot of computer games (except for really simple ones like, say, tetris or minesweeper).
00:25:39 <itidus21> im just blabbering.
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00:25:54 <Vorpal> most of the games I tend to play are heavily story-oriented, or at least features a story as an important part
00:27:26 <zzo38> Good story oriented computer games include text adventure games are good game
00:27:44 <itidus21> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verisimilitude
00:28:10 <itidus21> afk
00:28:57 <Vorpal> zzo38, did you just say that?
00:29:06 <Vorpal> huh
00:29:11 * Vorpal tries to parse it
00:30:58 <zzo38> Text adventure games can resemble a role-playing game but by computer and single-player, and of course the computer does not understand everything you are trying to do
00:31:19 <Vorpal> RPGs can be single player
00:31:44 <zzo38> Yes they can be; they can even be no-player; but that is not what is relevant
00:33:36 <Vorpal> zzo38, where was your web server now again?
00:33:47 <zzo38> On my computer!
00:33:57 <Vorpal> well, I mean URL
00:34:38 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/ but there is nothing there; you need the filename
00:34:59 <Vorpal> right
00:35:19 <zzo38> I already posted the filenames above, though
00:35:31 <Vorpal> zzo38, it just has a link to gopher that I can't open
00:35:43 <zzo38> Yes I know, like I said you need the filename
00:35:51 <Vorpal> right
00:36:00 <Vorpal> well I need to sleep
00:36:01 <Vorpal> cya
00:39:26 <zzo38> In Dungeons&Dragons game I have figured out a plan to continue (I need the chancellor's autograph); I figured out, I now need a wig and I need to cut off his beard and moustache, etc. And take his belongings and destroy them (unless it is money, in which case I can exchange them for gold and give the gold coins to the king).
00:39:52 <zzo38> However I might need a Time Hop spell of a greater duration than normal.
00:42:52 <zzo38> Perhaps if he refuses to give me his autograph, I can find his signature in the royal documents and if I find one describing a bad law that he is trying to pass, I can steal that document.
00:44:51 <itidus21> back
00:44:59 <itidus21> i feel a bit better
00:45:01 <itidus21> i think
00:45:27 <zzo38> In order to kill the demon I think I will need to do many other things first, including trick the chancellor, kill the chancellor, not letanyone know he is dead, and many political issues, especially since he did many bad things and stole the king (so we need to find the king too), and then need help from a beholder and from forcing the demon to chase us around the world.
00:45:33 <itidus21> i suppose i still like fiction
00:45:41 <zzo38> I already have some of the tools I need, such as astrolabe and shovel.
00:48:09 <zzo38> The chancellor is bald, therefore I will need a wig.
00:48:23 <zzo38> And something to force it to stay on his head.
00:49:11 <zzo38> And then the castle will be restored to its rightful king (whom I have never seen, so this might be difficult).
00:54:53 <zzo38> The royal wizard is also helping and he also hates the chancellor like I have also realized he was doing bad things, after using a disguise to go into the king's chamber I could find out more information and now I can confirm the chancellor is on the same team as the demon and they do evil jobs for each other.
00:55:34 <zzo38> However, even though the royal wizard would also want the chancellor dead, I think it is best that he does not know yet; I think it is even best that even I do not know yet, therefore I can cast Modify Memory on myself.
00:56:31 <zzo38> All I found in the king's bed was a dummy.
00:57:18 <shachaf> kmc: I got my flag shirt!
00:57:25 <itidus21> so i got megazeux and tried the super mario demo. pretty cool that they did all that in textmode
00:58:08 <zzo38> Yes it is. Did you try the Caverns of Zeux, Forest of Zeux, etc? Did you try my MegaZeux games (I linked two of them)?
01:00:10 <itidus21> the thing about it is, i have an obsession with super mario bros.
01:01:06 <zzo38> I have once made up a Action Replay cheat code for Super Mario Land to turn off the music but keep the sound effect on.
01:02:20 <itidus21> ok. s/^... /i have an interest in super mario bros./
01:03:00 <FireFly> that substitution doesn't make sense
01:03:11 <itidus21> ya..
01:03:26 <zzo38> I have played Super Mario Bros too I wanted to make it invisible Mario to make the game more difficult, I managed to do so
01:03:47 <itidus21> i mean to say
01:04:10 <itidus21> ok. s/i have an obsession with super mario bros/i have an interest in super mario bros/
01:04:32 <itidus21> zzo38 reminds me of the kinds of things truely obsessed people do
01:15:40 <itidus21> i mean in other words.. i have done nothing to truely represent an obsession with it
01:15:49 <itidus21> i havent devoted real time and energy
01:16:44 <zzo38> Try to play the computer games that I made up, see if you can understand it
01:21:26 <itidus21> i like the term computer games because the computer is really the singular element distinguishing them from other games
01:22:16 <itidus21> board games and card games can be exactly the same regardless of whether they're played on a computer for example
01:22:42 <zzo38> Yes, well, mostly
01:23:03 <itidus21> also there exists sound-only games designed with the blind in mind
01:23:51 <zzo38> Yes there are some
01:24:26 <itidus21> and some interactive fiction is like choose your own adventure books and the like doesn't require a computer
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02:13:21 <zzo38> edwardk: O, you are on this channel too now?
02:13:36 <edwardk> i wander back after a while and everyone thinks its strange ;)
02:13:47 <edwardk> i used to lurk in here more regularly
02:14:00 <zzo38> OK. Well, I suppose either I did not notice or I forgot.
02:14:02 <olsner> used to? how long ago was that?
02:14:10 <zzo38> But it is not a problem nevertheless.
02:14:20 <olsner> I don't recall seeing you here before yesterday :)
02:14:25 <edwardk> no worries. =) I stalked kmc in. ;)
02:14:43 <edwardk> olsner: i chattered with you and oklopol and some of the others a few years ago
02:14:55 <edwardk> he had some silly language
02:15:29 <olsner> oh, that time, that was a while before I started coming here regularly
02:15:30 <edwardk> and we talked about kata, so it was probably ~4 years back
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02:15:56 <olsner> if it was when everyone was inventing a silly human language
02:16:06 <edwardk> sounds about right
02:17:05 <edwardk> i mostly wandered away because i switched irc clients and forgot to add this one back to the list of what i log into
02:17:14 <zzo38> Does the class codensity monad of a commutative idempotent monoid form a set?
02:17:36 <zzo38> edwardk: What IRC client did you used to use and what you switched to?
02:17:38 <edwardk> hrmm good question, seems like it would
02:17:39 <olsner> code density monad
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02:18:35 <zzo38> The class density comonad of a copeanoid (my Copeanoid class) is a non-empty list comonad even with the same meanings of duplicate and extract.
02:18:40 <edwardk> zzo38: i used to use pidgin, then adium, then xchat, now i use textual
02:18:51 <edwardk> zzo38: sounds about right
02:19:07 <edwardk> you can get the non-empty list monad just by using Free Semigroup
02:19:12 <olsner> I wonder if reddit also got hit by the leap second bug
02:19:22 <zzo38> edwardk: And yes I did realize that too!
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02:20:03 <edwardk> and Maybe as Free Default, if you use class Algebra f r where phi :: f r -> r then Free (Algebra f) is just the free monad over the f functor
02:20:49 <zzo38> You used four kind of IRC clients? I just wrote an IRC client and before I used this, I used telnet to connect to IRC, which does not work so well.
02:21:16 <edwardk> well, this was recently. before that i used others. i think i first used ircii
02:21:21 <olsner> wow, using telnet for IRC, that's hardcore
02:21:37 <edwardk> i used to use bitchx way back when as well
02:21:48 <olsner> otoh, I should not be surprised that the world's last gopher user would also try that :)
02:21:49 <edwardk> but its hard to take any project with a name like that seriously
02:21:54 <edwardk> hah
02:22:08 <edwardk> i remember gopher. not fondly, but i remember it. =)
02:22:25 <edwardk> it was pretty much my first exposure to the internet at large coming out of the bbs world
02:22:29 <zzo38> Now I use PHIRC which unlike using telnet, allows you to backspace, does syntax highlighting, support macros, hides the password, and auto-pong and so on too
02:22:53 <zzo38> edwardk: Gopher and BBS are still used somewhat (and I am not the only one).
02:22:54 <edwardk> oh and i guess i still use colloquy when i want to irc from the ipad
02:23:22 <shachaf> edwardk: kmc will be gone for two weeks soon, I hear!
02:23:25 <edwardk> i used to be overly obsessed with the detroit area bbs scene
02:23:29 <edwardk> shachaf: ack
02:23:47 <edwardk> er both ACKnowledged and, "ack!"
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02:24:43 <mroman> An IRC client with syntax highlighting?
02:24:43 <zzo38> BBS systems today are commonly Synchronet and are accessed by internet rather than telephone. Usually telnet is used, however Synchronet also supports rlogin, SSH, NNTP, SMTP, HTTP (including server-side JavaScript), gopher, FTP, and IRC.
02:25:17 <edwardk> i actually wrote a FOSSIL driver around 92 or so that was used to move the regional fidonet hub onto the internet for mail exchange
02:25:18 <zzo38> mroman: Yes. Sender is cyan, command is bright white, short parameters are white, long parameters are bright blue (the colon in front is normal white, though).
02:26:20 <edwardk> used to run bbs's off of OS/2 and DESQview. sheesh, i'd forgotten about DESQview
02:26:38 <edwardk> (and of course DOS)
02:28:11 <edwardk> i wrote a bbs software like TAG called 'psychosys', and a bunch of door games that were used by a lot of ISPs in the area - yes, i was a kid, and it sounded edgy.
02:28:36 <edwardk> er s/ISPs/BBSs/
02:28:42 <olsner> I have seen a BBS once
02:28:54 <zzo38> Do you still have any of those door games, and are they compatible with Synchronet?
02:29:29 <edwardk> i might have the source to one or two of them, but keep in mind these are DOS BBS doors, written in turbo pascal probably 5.0, 5.5 or 6.0
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02:29:46 <edwardk> and they are designed to talk to an old dos era fossil driver
02:30:07 * shachaf complains vaguely about ptrace.
02:30:09 <itidus21> is a door game about going from room to room via doors?
02:30:20 <olsner> edwardk: what's a "door" in this context?
02:30:23 <zzo38> Synchronet does support DOS programs and does support FOSSIL as well, and possibly the source codes could be adjusted a bit to compile for a free compiler.
02:30:53 <edwardk> oh, no, door games were where you'd step out of the bbs and into a separate application that would take over the connection and play, the BBS would basically terminate but stay resident, the door would take up the rest of the memory and start running
02:31:01 <zzo38> I still play BBS door games, and access FidoNet and stuff, today, on X-BIT. Telnet to x-bit.org port 23 you need an account
02:31:17 <edwardk> and then when they came back in from the door the BBS would take back over interaction
02:31:53 <edwardk> the door protocol was also how the mail loader that would deal with most fidonet era BBSs would launch the mail exchanger.
02:32:20 <edwardk> it'd pick up the line, check to see if it was another bbs calling that wanted to toss mail, then dump into that mode before hanging up, or it'd go to the usual bbs startup
02:32:39 <edwardk> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBS_door
02:32:44 <zzo38> Some modern door games are written in server-side JavaScript (which Synchronet supports).
02:33:09 <edwardk> if i'm going to write a door in javascript i might as well just run it in the browser ;)
02:33:10 <zzo38> That toss mail stuff still works today using QWK.
02:33:28 <mroman> zzo38: Oh.
02:33:39 <edwardk> i used to work with paul williams from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TAG_(BBS)
02:33:40 <mroman> I thought syntax highlighting for code.
02:33:58 <edwardk> and knew a number of the telegard guys as well
02:34:29 <edwardk> mostly by dint of being an obnoxious obsessive kid who would chat with anyone ;)
02:35:10 <olsner> if everyone built their BBS:es on z/VM, I guess doors would be done as virtual machines
02:35:32 <zzo38> There still are many Synchronet BBSes today and many of the modern games are written in JavaScript, although to the client it is the same as if it were a DOS program or native program.
02:36:49 <edwardk> sadly none of the ones out of michigan descend from the horst mann bbs list era ;)
02:36:55 <zzo38> One game I like best is Word Warp, which I still play today. Scores are kept per month.
02:37:53 <edwardk> http://bbslist.textfiles.com/313/ has a lot of the wrong names for sysops, etc. odd
02:38:03 <zzo38> edwardk: Well, yes, they are new ones since they are by internet instead of telephone, and as far as I know the only software that existed in those days for telephone BBS and now works with internet BBS is Synchronet. So if they have a Synchronet BBS, it is possible for it to still exist today on the internet.
02:39:01 <edwardk> i found an old 5 1/4" floppy from that era with some of my old pascal source code on it
02:39:09 <edwardk> but i don't have anything to read it with =(
02:40:09 <zzo38> I will tell you what I have used for that purpose: I used a compiler with 5 1/4" floppy drive and connect it to a laptop computer by serial port.
02:40:15 <edwardk> it should have a little populous style over-world 320x200 game engine for rendering the overland map from my mud, a little novalogic "voxel" style cave exploration engine, etc
02:41:30 <edwardk> my mom mentioned she found some of my even older 5 1/4" floppies from when i used CP/M =/
02:41:37 <edwardk> those will be even more awkward to read
02:42:03 <edwardk> mostly just used to boot into it from the commodore 128
02:42:17 <edwardk> i wound up moving to the PC because of turbo pascal. it gave me a migration path ;)
02:42:37 <edwardk> (tp 3.0 or so had both CP/M and DOS versions)
02:42:51 <zzo38> I sometimes write computer game programs in QBASIC.
02:43:06 <edwardk> i'm not that masochistic ;)
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02:43:40 <zzo38> All of these program in public domain
02:43:53 <zzo38> Including source-codes.
02:44:02 <zzo38> I can show it to you if you want to.
02:44:42 <edwardk> i wrote my disassembler on a lark when i was 8 or so when i lied and told a kid i'd written one and had to make good, and after i wrote the little assembly monitor i used to enter code, the only time i ever bothered with basic on the c64 was when forced.
02:45:05 <edwardk> quickbasic programs? no thanks =)
02:45:42 <zzo38> Some people have said these are good game
02:46:21 <zzo38> edwardk: Also, can you show me how you can make free monad over the functor by class Algebra f r where phi :: f r -> r
02:46:51 <edwardk> its in ralf hinze's article
02:46:54 <zzo38> (And what it has to do with algebra)
02:47:04 <edwardk> that is an f-algebra
02:47:13 <edwardk> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-algebra
02:47:33 <zzo38> OK
02:47:53 <edwardk> so make an instance of Algebra for say, instance Algebra f (Mu f) where phi = In
02:48:50 <edwardk> or instance Algebra f (TheOtherFree f a) were phi = TheOtherFree
02:49:04 <edwardk> (using TheOtherFree for the constructor of the more traditonal free monad)
02:49:18 <edwardk> instance Algebra f (Free (Algebra f))
02:49:20 <edwardk> also works
02:49:36 <edwardk> all of those are fun to construct
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02:50:26 <edwardk> do make the cofree comonad you need f-coalgebras
02:50:39 <edwardk> class Coalgebra f a where psi :: a -> f a
02:50:59 <edwardk> phi and psi are traditional, but not necessary names
02:51:31 <zzo38> I thought what you called phi there seems what is called alpha in the Wikipedia article? Or am I doing something wrong?
02:51:42 <edwardk> it is
02:52:31 <edwardk> you may find http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.41.125 useful in understanding them
02:53:14 <edwardk> my old catamorphism knol uses them, http://comonad.com/haskell/catamorphisms.html
02:54:17 <zzo38> I do not have access to CiteseerX
02:55:45 <itidus21> http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/emeijer/Papers/fpca91.pdf
02:56:34 <itidus21> actually theres a .ps link on the site itself
02:56:58 <itidus21> zzo38: it's apparently a free article
02:59:00 <itidus21> nevermind i'll stay out of it
03:13:21 <zzo38> What is the isomorphism between these free monads?
03:32:56 <zzo38> Please tell me if you have any suggestion relating to ITMCK then I may add it in if I think it is a good idea.
03:34:06 <zzo38> There are some features I wanted to add on, I may do so in later version but not in first version.
03:36:06 <itidus21> zzo38: do you like music?
03:36:21 <zzo38> itidus21: I like many kind of music not all
03:36:39 <itidus21> i don't know why but I have never had much interest in audio
03:37:12 <itidus21> it's like how children (probably) don't have any interest in politics
03:37:32 <itidus21> maybe it is cognitive dissonance
03:38:19 <itidus21> i can't whistle, i can't play any instruments, i've never created a song
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03:39:44 <zzo38> I can play piano
03:47:23 <zzo38> I have even made up music with Bohlen-Pierce too.
03:49:35 <coppro> i am a badperson
03:49:41 <coppro> also wait
03:49:46 <coppro> who invitied edwardk in here?
03:49:49 <coppro> this channel is ruined
03:50:04 <zzo38> coppro: edwardk sometimes come in here I do not think that makes the channel ruined
03:50:17 <coppro> zzo38: it was sarcasm :)
03:52:55 <olsner> coppro: if you are a badperson, maybe it was you who ruined the channel?
03:53:34 <coppro> olsner: possible
03:54:23 <itidus21> im confident that i destroy every social system i am a part of
03:55:42 -!- coppro has set topic: Individuals guilty of ruining this channel: coppro, edwardk, itidus21 (ex officio), dbelange | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
03:55:50 <zzo38> If you have any complaint against ITMCK you can file the complaint in here: https://devlabs.linuxassist.net/projects/itmck
03:57:30 <itidus21> what is ITMCK
03:57:50 <itidus21> This is program to write Impulse Tracker files.
03:58:00 <zzo38> Yes, that is what it is.
03:59:23 <itidus21> do you think it is cheating to use a non-standard memory mapper for NES/Famicom homebrew?
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04:00:11 <zzo38> itidus21: Almost.
04:00:52 <itidus21> There are many ambitions I have in life. One of them is to make a NES/Famicom rom.
04:01:01 <itidus21> wow... i just had idea
04:02:02 <itidus21> if i cared about brainfuck, i could add to my list of ambitions the ambition of creating a NES rom brainfuck interpreter
04:02:33 <itidus21> oh its been done
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04:02:41 <itidus21> wow
04:03:01 <itidus21> http://pdroms.de/files/nintendoentertainmentsystem/khs-nes-brainfuck
04:03:32 <itidus21> another ambition completed vicariously
04:05:05 <olsner> itidus21: of course it has been done :)
04:05:52 <itidus21> well i bet there isn't a dvd where you can code brainfuck from the remote control yet
04:06:08 <itidus21> then again not sure if a dvd can do that
04:06:12 <olsner> not sure DVD is turing complete at all
04:06:27 <olsner> bluray can, but the tools for it are all proprietary and yucky
04:06:36 <itidus21> yeah....
04:06:59 <zzo38> At least DVD does have more buttons, you can use all the numbers 1 to 99, I think.
04:07:10 <itidus21> i read today about some choose your own adventure dvd on wikipedia.. and of course they filed a patent!
04:07:45 <itidus21> so yes its a stupid idea to do
04:13:22 <coppro> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Baptiste_Lully I admire this man
04:13:31 <coppro> he died due to complications arising from a conducting injury
04:13:38 <coppro> conducting being the musical thing
04:13:58 <coppro> xkcd: died in a conducting accident
04:14:10 <itidus21> to me, esolangs are useful for the same reasons as psychedelics
04:14:32 <pikhq> coppro: How does that even *happen*?
04:15:49 <itidus21> He was beating time by banging a long staff (a precursor to the bton) against the floor, as was the common practice at the time, when he struck his toe, creating an abscess. The wound turned gangrenous, but Lully refused to have his toe amputated and the gangrene spread, resulting in his death on 22 March.
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06:24:18 <zzo38> I made up a list of fake character of Super Smash Brothers, including: Prof.Oak, Imakuni?, Kaiji, Kjugobe, Miyamoto, Urza, TV repair man.
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06:25:29 <itidus21> zzo38: oh i have a mockup to show you
06:25:33 <zzo38> These are seven columns on a sheet of paper. The rows are: (up)XY, (left/right), (down), A, A(up), A(left/right), A(down), B, B(up), B(left/right), B(down), C(up), C(left/right), C(down), Z, LR, D(up), D(left/right), D(down), FINAL.
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06:26:08 <zzo38> (I did not actually write (up) and stuff like that; I wrote the arrows.)
06:28:37 <zzo38> Miyamoto's FINAL is to break the game and it won't work anymore until you push RESET (so the match ends with no winner, and if it is tournament mode, you also have to start the tournament all over again).
06:29:39 <zzo38> Imakuni?'s D(down) changes the music to the Imakuni?'s card music.
06:30:33 <zzo38> And it deals damage if and only if the Imakuni?'s card music is the normal music for that stage.
06:31:23 <zzo38> Kaiji's B(up) allows you to walk up the glass staircase that nobody else ever noticed was there.
06:33:46 <zzo38> What are your opinions for this kind of things?
06:34:16 <itidus21> http://i.imgur.com/Anw0L.png
06:34:38 <itidus21> took a while to find this in my firefox history
06:34:44 <zzo38> Why does it say Carmack twice?
06:34:53 <itidus21> john and adrian :D
06:35:01 <zzo38> OK
06:35:57 <itidus21> the fact that tom hall and john carmack are depicted as female is, partially because thats just how the screenshot was
06:36:23 <itidus21> the enemy they're facing is a doomgaze
06:36:26 <zzo38> I wasn't paying attention to that
06:37:11 <itidus21> but, overall, i like the idea that a game dev team is a party made up of people with different specializations
06:37:31 <Sgeo> tswett, monqy: Homestuck is on hiatuses for a while: http://mspandrew.tumblr.com/post/26260841147/hiatustuck . Note that I may not have announced the most recent update, etc.
06:37:44 <zzo38> Some game is made by just one guy
06:39:03 <itidus21> so, taking a look now at what you said.. oak is the guy from pokemon, miyamoto is a man whose precise work is unknown but mario is attriubted to him
06:39:37 <zzo38> Yes
06:39:46 <itidus21> urza sounds like bear for some reason
06:39:58 <zzo38> Perhaps you are thinking of the Latin "ursa"
06:40:29 <zzo38> (As in "Ursa Major" (the Great Bear) and "Ursa Minor" (the Small Bear))
06:40:36 <itidus21> something like that
06:40:50 <zzo38> Urza is from Magic: the Gathering cards
06:41:09 <coppro> Urza would be too strong
06:41:42 <coppro> zzo38: Have you read the artifact cycle?
06:42:08 <zzo38> coppro: What is that?
06:42:21 <coppro> zzo38: a book series
06:42:28 <coppro> featuring urza
06:42:34 <zzo38> I have not read any of those books.
06:42:39 <coppro> ah
06:42:46 <coppro> those ones are actually quite good
06:44:15 <coppro> I particularly enjoyed The Thran
06:44:23 <coppro> and Planeswalker
06:44:26 <itidus21> zzo38: it sounds not too remote from the sort of thing i would enjoy making. but ive only played smash bros once.. my brother and i looked on helplessly as the cpu kicked our ass
06:44:27 <zzo38> Well, I have not read them. My interest in Magic: the Gathering is how the rules interact with each other (I think this is called "Melvin")
06:45:15 <zzo38> itidus21: I have play the game against my brother and the computer players and I sometimes win but usually he wins.
06:45:59 <itidus21> we don't play games together much.. not since SNES really
06:46:14 <itidus21> but i had a few fun sessions playing a game called bleach: shattered blade
06:47:23 <itidus21> it was really intensive cos you have to shake the wiimote to charge up some special move
06:48:07 <zzo38> Well, I played with the GameCube controllers so did not have to do such things like that
06:48:22 <itidus21> in this case it was part of the fun though
06:48:46 <zzo38> Yes, of course, if that is a part of the game, then yes it is.
06:49:01 <itidus21> to play this game, it was a matter of physical stamina
06:50:36 <zzo38> Why does MegaZeux converts .GDM to .S3M but OpenMPT converts .GDM to .MOD instead? Do either of these works better in either case?
06:52:35 <zzo38> itidus21: I think originally they wanted Miyamoto's final attack to crack the disc so you have to purchase a new one, but I changed it.
06:55:20 <itidus21> that sounds right
06:55:34 <zzo38> (At least this is what my brother told me)
06:56:17 <itidus21> ahh you both designed this?
06:56:24 <zzo38> Yes.
07:00:55 <itidus21> Game publishers dont like the second-hand game market because it eats into revenues. Capcom is planning to counter that by releasing a game for the Nintendo 3DS that can only support one save file - for life.
07:01:04 <itidus21> The game is Resident Evil: Mercenaries 3D and according to the games instruction manual, the saved data on this software cannot be reset.
07:01:47 <itidus21> close enough
07:02:33 <zzo38> It is stupid. Well, I have a program to backup and restore save data on DS game cards, but I do not know if it will work with the 3DS cards
07:05:36 <itidus21> another news is that DLC is planned for an upcoming super mario game
07:06:34 <itidus21> yet another idiot move was final fantasy xiii-2 apparently has a DLC ending
07:06:39 <shachaf> @seen kmc
07:06:40 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
07:06:50 <kmc> hichaf
07:07:10 <shachaf> kmc: I got my flag shirt!
07:07:16 <kmc> nice!
07:07:16 <shachaf> Maybe I said that before.
07:07:35 <shachaf> Also, I asked about the next CTF on your behalf.
07:07:40 <shachaf> It'll probably be in August.
07:07:44 <kmc> cool
07:07:46 <zzo38> My own designs are opposite to theirs: The game disc has no copy protection and includes all the files on the disc which are needed to make the box art and instruction book and inventory data and so on, so if the store runs out of stock they can make their own copy; the customer can do the same if they lost the box or instructions, or the disc cracked and they want a backup copy, etc
07:07:54 <shachaf> It'll probably be more web-oriented.
07:08:02 <kmc> cool!
07:09:02 <shachaf> I found a bug in std.file.read() in D.
07:09:07 <shachaf> Which isn't very confidence-inspiring.
07:09:13 <fizzie> What's a "flag shirt"?
07:09:13 <kmc> what kind of bug?
07:09:21 <itidus21> can it be used to take control of the computer?
07:09:31 <shachaf> It gets the buffering wrong and gives you a bunch of 0s instead of the end of the file you asked for.
07:09:46 <shachaf> "oopse :'("
07:10:09 <kmc> :3
07:10:19 <shachaf> With normal files it stat()s them first and allocates a reasonably-large buffer.
07:10:29 <shachaf> But with /proc files it can't do that, and you get a bunch of NULs.
07:11:00 <kmc> aha
07:11:15 <kmc> is it actually null, or uninitialized data?
07:11:44 <shachaf> Presumably uninitialized data.
07:11:50 <zzo38> This system may cut into revenues but it also costs us less to implement than the other way, and the store can potentially sell a lot more copies since they can make their own copy if they run out of stock.
07:11:51 <shachaf> I think it's whatever it gets from realloc().
07:12:08 <kmc> shachaf: how did you come to be playing with D's std.file.read()?
07:12:26 <shachaf> Also, something like half of the suid programs on my system segfault when you exec them with argc==0.
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07:12:53 <shachaf> I was thinking of using D for various ptrace things.
07:13:18 <Taneb> Hello
07:14:41 <zzo38> Do you like the "Famicom-MIDI" format?
07:14:55 <fizzie> shachaf: <fizzie> What's a "flag shirt"? [Some day I'll learn to add that "nick:" thing the first time.]
07:15:01 <Taneb> I'm not awfully familiar with the various music formats available
07:15:30 <shachaf> fizzie: It's a shirt with a picture of a flag on it.
07:15:30 <Taneb> I presume Famicom-MIDI is designed for the NES?
07:15:33 <zzo38> Taneb: Famicom-MIDI is not a music format, it is a specification for use of MIDI like General-MIDI is a specification for use of MIDI.
07:15:47 <shachaf> kmc has one, and today I went and got one too.
07:15:49 <Taneb> Oh, okay
07:16:10 <zzo38> Taneb: Yes it is for NES but mostly emulators, and can be used with GameBoy and stuff too.
07:16:13 <fizzie> shachaf: Oh, I thought a shirt made out of a flag or something. (I guess that's sort of close.)
07:16:45 <shachaf> It could be a shirt with a picture of a shirt made out of a flag on it.
07:17:18 <zzo38> (It would probably be difficult to make it work on a real GameBoy without modifying the hardware, although channels 0-3 could be made to work on a real NES; channels 8 and 9 would also require modification of the hardware. Emulators can support it more easily, though.)
07:17:22 <shachaf> kmc: Writing a program that prints out the contents of /proc/foo/maps is weird.
07:17:32 <shachaf> I constantly feel like my program just crashed.
07:18:07 <zzo38> Here is the current draft of Famicom-MIDI document: http://nesdev.parodius.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=9058
07:18:49 <fizzie> They sent me a T-shirt (the cheapest-looking one I've ever seen) for doing that stripe.com "CTF" get-the-password kind of thing a while ago, something like that was my alternative guess.
07:19:07 <shachaf> fizzie: That's the one I got.
07:19:11 <shachaf> I was at the Stripe office today.
07:19:22 <shachaf> I did the CTF but they never sent me the shirt.
07:20:01 <fizzie> Oh, okay. (I was kind of surprised they bothered to mail one all the way to Finland.)
07:20:10 <zzo38> One potential use is to play back tool assisted speedruns that are created on computer, to the actual NES, by connecting through a MIDI sequencer to the device that translates the signals and connects to the controller port.
07:24:22 <zzo38> Channel 8 could be used to record the audio data directly, which can then be played back in any emulator supporting Famicom-MIDI (even one that is not capable of recording audio in this way).
07:27:02 <zzo38> Can you understand the Famicom-MIDI now?
07:28:33 <Taneb> Hmm
07:28:45 <Taneb> Not really, but honestly? I don't really care
07:28:57 <Taneb> I've been playing Dwarf Fortress, and I've found a perfect site
07:29:28 <Taneb> It's got magnetite, haematite, limestone, bituminous coal, and native silver.
07:29:34 <Taneb> It's also heavily forested
07:29:38 <Taneb> Downsides: alligators
07:32:59 <Taneb> Oh, and it has gold
07:35:41 <itidus21> zzo38: actually the technical side of it is probably the easy part for smart people. but the greater question of what you are trying to achieve overall is an exciting mystery
07:36:59 <zzo38> What do you not understand about trying to achieve overall?
07:37:17 <zzo38> I thought I explained that too.
07:37:31 <Taneb> zzo38, you're almost reminding me of ELIZA
07:38:16 <itidus21> is it a midi player? is it a library to enable some given NES software to include midi music?
07:40:15 <zzo38> itidus21: No! It doesn't have anything more to do with music than MIDI show control has to do with music.
07:41:21 <itidus21> you mentioned something about controller port.. is there some midi device which can conveniently plug into controller port?
07:42:11 <zzo38> You would have to make up such a device, and it would have to support synchro-start
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07:46:41 <Taneb> Morning, PH
07:48:32 <itidus21> is it about using midi to encode video-game related data?
07:54:08 <itidus21> zzo38: i am breaking rule #1 which is never question the motives of an engineer
07:57:15 <zzo38> itidus21: That is kind of the purpose, yes. For example, to record the controller inputs for playback later, either by file or by external MIDI devices. You may also be able to edit them using certain MIDI programs.
07:58:09 <zzo38> And I disagree with rule #1 anyways since to learn something you have to question the motives of an engineer. And then you have to get an answer.
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09:31:00 <oerjan> ex officio, that means it's his job, right?
09:49:22 <shachaf> 02:44 <DexterLB> how do I convert [IO a] to (IO [a])?
09:49:30 <shachaf> That ended more cheerfully than I had feared.
09:49:36 <oerjan> :t sequence
09:49:38 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *) a. (Monad m) => [m a] -> m [a]
09:50:46 <shachaf> Yep.
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11:03:42 <Phantom_Hoover> > 0.99 ^ 100
11:03:44 <lambdabot> 0.3660323412732289
11:04:23 <oerjan> > exp (-1)
11:04:24 <lambdabot> 0.36787944117144233
11:04:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Ooh, I never realised e crops up there.
11:05:49 <oerjan> i think that's how i first saw e derived, way back
11:05:50 <Phantom_Hoover> (Probability of an event with probability 1/n not occurring on any of n occasions.)
11:06:11 <oerjan> alternatively, continuously compounded interest
11:06:39 <Phantom_Hoover> One of the STEP II problems this year was deriving that representation.
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11:08:45 <oerjan> lim {n -> infty} (1 + k/n)^n = e^k
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12:03:46 <Vorpal> I was just looking at the ID3 spec to figure out why my phone only seems to notice the embedded cover art for some of the albums... That spec is a mess... Also the image type enumeration includes "$11 A bright coloured fish"... What?
12:04:45 <shachaf> Are you saying bright coloured fish *shouldn't* be allowed in images?
12:04:56 <shachaf> Are you some kind of racistagainstfishperson?
12:05:32 <Vorpal> shachaf, I'm questioning that it is a special type, the other types includes things such as "Cover (front)" "Cover (back)" and file icons
12:05:44 <Vorpal> "A bright coloured fish" doesn't make sense there
12:05:59 <shachaf> Fishracist!
12:06:20 <Vorpal> right
12:07:17 <Vorpal> anyway the spec in general is a mess. It is incredibly unclear on various points, explains things in the wrong order (and doesn't provide any sort of cross references for such situations) and so on
12:07:39 <Vorpal> also it has lots of features that no one uses apparently
12:07:46 <fizzie> Vorpal: I think I mentioned the fish on #esoteric.
12:07:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, not recently I presume?
12:08:23 <fizzie> Well, some years ago.
12:08:39 <shachaf> GIF has a bunch of features no one uses.
12:08:48 <fizzie> (And it could've been some other channel altogether.)
12:09:01 <Vorpal> also hm, this album which works on the phone doesn't show up has having cover art in the computer program I'm using for tagging (but it works in vlc!)
12:09:23 <Vorpal> yet some albums work in all programs, and some only on the computer
12:09:39 <Vorpal> vlc seems to manage everything though, can't embed cover art from it I think
12:10:19 <fizzie> It is quite a mess, I agree about that.
12:10:45 <Vorpal> also... this album works on the phone when playing a song from it (it displays the cover art) but the cover art doesn't show up in the album listing
12:10:49 <Vorpal> wut
12:11:01 <Vorpal> caching issues?
12:12:55 <Vorpal> I did figure out one thing though, and that is that it can't do cover art in ogg, but that was like the only consistent behaviour about it
12:18:30 <fizzie> The only files that I have cover art on the phone are I think the four really random songs that had for some reason been preloaded onto it.
12:18:38 <Vorpal> heh
12:18:52 <Vorpal> the bastion sound track is the crazy one that works perfectly except in the tagger software
12:19:24 <Vorpal> oh the thing with cover art showing up in some places was a caching issue
12:19:33 <Vorpal> killing the music player program and starting it again worked
12:20:30 <Vorpal> and then I just have Ogg Vorbis left... And cover art for that doesn't work at all on the phone
12:21:38 <Vorpal> and from googling... what the tagger does isn't an official standard, just a common convention, since there is no official way to embed cover art in ogg vorbis...
12:21:40 <Vorpal> oh well
12:24:43 <Vorpal> oh wait the tagger uses a deprecated variant. Maybe that is the issue
12:24:51 <Vorpal> now I need to find a program that does it properly
12:39:29 <Vorpal> lol... vlc doesn't handle the recommended format, but the phone does
12:39:32 <Vorpal> (for ogg)
12:39:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, ^
12:39:36 <Vorpal> what a utter mess
12:59:34 <Vorpal> an*
13:04:22 <Vorpal> oh okay I needed to update vlc
13:13:50 <fizzie> Wonder whether that new Linux Skype 4 is worth upgrading to. The Utnubu on the laptop didn't seem to package it yet.
13:24:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, isn't skype rather bad from what I heard?
13:24:33 <Vorpal> and from what I heard it is getting worse over time
13:29:34 <fizzie> I'm not sure what kind of "bad" that means. I mean, ethical and philosophical vs. technical issues. The old Linux client (version numbers 2.x) has been usable but not so good; I don't know about this new version 4. (The Windows and OS X versions are in 5.x or something, but I don't think they share much code.)
13:31:19 <olsner> from what I recall, skype on linux is bad in all ways
13:33:21 <olsner> but that was years ago
13:37:12 <fizzie> They haven't really made any significant improvement in the 2.x series.
13:37:40 <fizzie> The official blog post about Skype 4 for Linux says it's good, but they would in any case, wouldn't they?
13:39:09 <olsner> yes, they would
13:40:02 <fizzie> They list "much lower chance Skype for Linux will crash or freeze" as one of the improvements.
13:49:14 -!- Patashu has changed nick to Patashu[Zzz].
13:50:41 <mroman> "much lower chance"...
13:50:45 <mroman> sounds legit .
13:51:17 <mroman> Grenades.. now with lower chance for exploding in your hand!
13:51:42 <mroman> Only 9.95!
13:51:44 <fizzie> Not just lower, much lower.
13:51:53 <mroman> Warning: May contain traces of nuts.
13:52:44 <fizzie> Like, it could be an order of magnitude lower. Now only every 100th grenade blows up in your hand, compared to every 10th.
13:53:47 <mroman> That would be so releiving .
13:54:04 <mroman> relieve
13:54:50 <mroman> Seems to me english folks didn't have a consensus on using ei or ie ;)
13:55:34 <olsner> i before e except after c (except the rule is useless)
13:56:31 <olsner> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLXvXFLKrSw for Stephen Fry's failed attempts at explaining the problem to Lee Mack
14:03:49 <Lumpio-> I dunno but I've never had trouble remembering whether it's ie or ei
14:03:54 <Lumpio-> Or knowing
14:04:41 <olsner> like all other parts of spelling in english, you just need to know how it's spelled
14:05:10 <fizzie> On the Origin of Speceis, because it's after c.
14:05:57 <olsner> but apparently those with english as a native language often get taught various rules for how this is done, but all the rules are broken
14:15:23 <mroman> If teaching rules to native speakers works.
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14:55:13 <Taneb> Hello
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14:57:59 <mroman> lleHo
14:59:11 <mroman> > randomRIO >>= return.(!!).(permutations "Hello")
14:59:13 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Types.IO a -> [a1]'
14:59:13 <lambdabot> against infer...
15:00:21 <mroman> > randomRIO (1,10) >>= (\c -> return $ (permutations "Hello") !! c)
15:00:22 <lambdabot> <IO [Char]>
15:00:40 <mroman> > print 5
15:00:42 <lambdabot> <IO ()>
15:00:58 <mroman> Too bad :(
15:11:47 <Vorpal> <fizzie> I'm not sure what kind of "bad" that means. I mean, ethical and philosophical vs. technical issues. The old Linux client (version numbers 2.x) has been usable but not so good; I don't know about this new version 4. (The Windows and OS X versions are in 5.x or something, but I don't think they share much code.) <-- technical issues with skype in general, not just on linux
15:11:54 <Vorpal> things like video calls breaking up and such
15:11:57 <Vorpal> from what I heard
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15:17:01 <fizzie> Well, EWORKSFORUS.
15:17:30 <fizzie> Though the Skype use we have is mostly audio and text.
15:18:17 <Vorpal> ah
15:19:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, shoudln't teamspeak or something like that work just as well then?
15:19:22 <fizzie> Again, other people.
15:19:24 <fizzie> @dice 1d120
15:19:24 <lambdabot> 1d120 => 50
15:19:28 <fizzie> > (permutations "Hello") !! 49
15:19:30 <lambdabot> "Hoell"
15:19:46 <fizzie> (Combining that to single step left as an exercise to the reader.)
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15:20:25 <Vorpal> right
15:20:58 <Vorpal> :t (!!)
15:21:00 <lambdabot> forall a. [a] -> Int -> a
15:21:09 <Taneb> I'll try this again
15:21:47 <fizzie> > ("Hello" !!) <$> [0..4]
15:21:48 <lambdabot> "Hello"
15:23:23 <fizzie> '@dice' is funny, it can do NdF+K but not NdF-K.
15:34:26 <mroman> > permutations "Hello" !! $ 49
15:34:27 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `$'
15:35:18 <fizzie> > (!!49) . permutations $ "Hello"
15:35:22 <lambdabot> "Hoell"
15:35:52 <mroman> I know.
15:36:01 <mroman> But that's not the output pl provides.
15:36:31 <mroman> > let f = (permutations "Hello" !!) in f 49
15:36:32 <lambdabot> "Hoell"
15:36:42 <mroman> > (permutations "Hello" !!) $ 49
15:36:44 <lambdabot> "Hoell"
15:36:58 <mroman> I forgot the brackets.
15:37:27 <fizzie> @pl \s -> (permutations s) !! 49
15:37:28 <lambdabot> (!! 49) . permutations
15:41:18 <Sgeo> Any chance it could do NdF-K by giving it a positive value that causes it to wrap around?
15:41:47 <Sgeo> > maxBound :: Int
15:41:49 <lambdabot> 9223372036854775807
15:41:56 <Sgeo> @dice 1d2
15:41:57 <lambdabot> 1d2 => 2
15:42:02 <Sgeo> @dice 1d2+1
15:42:03 <lambdabot> 1d2+1 => 3
15:42:10 <Sgeo> @dice 1d2+9223372036854775807
15:42:10 <lambdabot> 1d2+9223372036854775807 => 9223372036854775809
15:42:19 <Sgeo> @dice 1d2+9223372036854775808
15:42:19 <lambdabot> 1d2+9223372036854775808 => 9223372036854775810
15:42:30 <Sgeo> Blah
15:42:36 <fizzie> @dice 1d1
15:42:36 <lambdabot> 1d1 => 1
15:42:42 <Sgeo> @dice 1d2+1.5
15:42:43 <lambdabot> unexpected ".": expecting "+" or end
15:42:57 <FireFly> @dice 1d0
15:42:57 <lambdabot> 1d0 => 0
15:43:20 <Sgeo> @dice 0d1
15:43:21 <lambdabot> 0d1 => 0
15:43:23 <Sgeo> @dice 0d0
15:43:23 <lambdabot> 0d0 => 0
15:43:29 <Sgeo> > 0^0
15:43:30 <lambdabot> 1
15:48:31 <mroman> > maxBound :: Integer
15:48:32 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Enum.Bounded GHC.Integer.Type.Integer)
15:48:32 <lambdabot> arising from...
16:01:04 <Sgeo> For what it's worth, Integer as implemented by GHC is in fact bounded
16:13:26 <Deewiant> Sgeo: Howso?
16:13:58 <Sgeo> data Integer
16:13:59 <Sgeo> = S# Int# -- small integers
16:13:59 <Sgeo> | J# Int# ByteArray# -- large integers
16:14:25 <Sgeo> Uses a Int# for.... I think the size of the array? It has something to do with GMP's representation
16:14:55 <Deewiant> That doesn't necessarily mean it's bounded (although it probably is)
16:15:19 <Deewiant> The array could contain a "next array" pointer or some such.
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16:52:55 <fizzie> GMP's integers are at least bounded.
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17:02:21 <Taneb> Hello
17:07:47 -!- elliott has joined.
17:08:03 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Deadfish&curid=2038&diff=33007&oldid=33006 is there any evidence to support this change?
17:08:04 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 5 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
17:09:10 <elliott> 16:15:19: <Deewiant> The array could contain a "next array" pointer or some such.
17:09:11 <elliott> Pointers are bounded. Why am I reading the log? I'm closing that tab.
17:09:56 <elliott> @tell oerjan Not sure whether this change is accurate or not: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Deadfish&curid=2038&diff=33007&oldid=33006. You're the Deadfish person, you sort it out :
17:09:56 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
17:09:59 <elliott> @tell oerjan *:p
17:09:59 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
17:10:06 <Taneb> elliott, why did you leave for so long!? I've resorted to asking question to which I won't understand the answer to in #haskell !
17:10:17 <Deewiant> elliott: I was wilfully ignoring that kind of boundedness. :-P
17:11:14 <elliott> Deewiant: I don't see why you would when even without a next-array pointer the boundedness is entirely theoretical :p
17:11:42 <Deewiant> With a pointer you can fill the machine memory, with an Int# you can't. :-P
17:11:45 <elliott> Taneb: Have you noticed this channel is boring?
17:11:55 <elliott> Deewiant: Eh?
17:12:01 <elliott> Deewiant: A ByteArray# could easily fill memory.
17:12:05 <elliott> Without any next-array pointers.
17:12:14 <Taneb> elliott, it's my IRC home
17:12:19 <elliott> In J# Int# ByteArray#, the Int# is the number of thingies. Chunks. Thunks. Clunks. Punks. Monks.
17:12:32 <Deewiant> If it has at most maxBound :: Int# bytes, it can't necessarily.
17:12:50 <Deewiant> But yes, it's all quite uselessly academic.
17:12:51 <elliott> It's maxBound :: Int# words, I believe.
17:13:01 <elliott> (Also that's not a valid value!)
17:19:01 <copumpkin> elliott: limbs
17:19:01 <copumpkin> except it isn't just that
17:19:04 <copumpkin> it also has the sign baked in
17:20:23 <elliott> copumpkin: I forgot about the sign thing.
17:20:26 <elliott> Why did you have to remind me? :(
17:23:02 <copumpkin> :)
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17:35:14 <Vorpal> elliott, hi!
17:35:20 <elliott> Hi.
17:36:04 <Vorpal> elliott, hm ghc no longer goes through C iirc? Can it still be made to do that. I want to try something insane.
17:36:51 <zzo38> What is it that you want to try?
17:37:37 <Vorpal> zzo38, Try getting a haskell program onto an android device using the Android NDK (this will mean I have to either write some C glue code or somehow access JNI from inside haskell!)
17:38:04 <Vorpal> iirc android has a messed up phreads implementation, if ghc depends on a sane pthreads...
17:38:31 <Taneb> Vorpal, GHC does allow you to compile into C, but it needs a special option
17:38:45 <Vorpal> Taneb, and it is still platform specific C right?
17:38:54 <Vorpal> So I first need a ghc cross compiler to ARMv7
17:38:55 <Taneb> Not if you use a different option
17:39:08 <Vorpal> oh? really? Do you happen to know which options these are
17:41:04 <Vorpal> "The C code generator is only supported when GHC is built in unregisterised mode, a mode where GHC produces 'portable' C code as output to facilitate porting GHC itself to a new platform. This mode produces much slower code though so it's unlikely your version of GHC was built this way. If it has then the native code generator probably won't be available. You can check this information by calling ghc --
17:41:04 <Vorpal> info. "
17:41:05 <Vorpal> oh right
17:41:24 <Vorpal> so I probably need to specially compile ghc for the option to exist
17:41:40 <Vorpal> or actually, this system has an old ghc (6.12.1)
17:41:41 <Vorpal> hm
17:42:24 <Vorpal> yeah for modern ghc at least: "Unregisterised compilation cannot be selected at compile-time; you have to build GHC with the appropriate options set. Consult the GHC Building Guide for details."
17:43:42 <fizzie> You can see http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Android to see what others have thought about it.
17:43:54 <Vorpal> oh thanks, didn't think to check there
17:44:34 <fizzie> (Some dude on the SO thread mentions doing something with jhc w.r.t. the Wii homebrew toolchain.)
17:44:49 <Vorpal> heh
17:44:59 <Vorpal> what does jhc target now again?
17:46:14 <fizzie> Apparently it has at least several C-based backends.
17:46:18 <Vorpal> ah
17:46:30 <Vorpal> what with the j I thought it might target jvm
17:46:55 <fizzie> There's support for cross-compiling to iPhone too. Sounds like Android would fit right in.
17:47:30 <Vorpal> with iphone you have a objc environment. Presumably you thus have a non-barebone libc/libpthreads
17:47:38 <Vorpal> which is what android has from my understanding
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17:48:36 <Taneb> ais523, elliott's back
17:48:40 <Vorpal> yeah seems like a quick hack wouldn't be possible for this
17:48:40 <Taneb> And he's got a new trick
17:48:50 <Vorpal> Taneb, what new trick?
17:49:03 <Taneb> Vorpal, reference to a song
17:49:34 <Taneb> "He's back, and he's got a new trick"
17:49:51 <Vorpal> ah I see
17:49:54 <Taneb> "Elliott Hird is ten times as slick as the last time!"
17:49:55 <Vorpal> <elliott> Taneb: Have you noticed this channel is boring? <-- I guess I need to be more active :P
17:50:09 <Taneb> "The last time, you saw him"
17:50:20 <Taneb> "Now you can see we really adore him"
17:53:46 <Taneb> It's a Hexham Classic
17:59:21 <elliott> I'm back?
18:00:13 <Vorpal> elliott, do you have an android based phone or an iphone? I don't remember. I do remember you playing around with android devices, but they might have been tablets
18:00:46 -!- VorpalPhone has joined.
18:01:46 <VorpalPhone> I hate the wifi white spot in this room...
18:01:53 -!- VorpalPhone has quit (Client Quit).
18:01:59 <Vorpal> terrible wifi here
18:02:12 <Vorpal> could only connect on second try
18:03:35 <elliott> I have an iPhone. I don't use it.
18:03:40 <Vorpal> ah okay
18:04:07 <Vorpal> elliott, so if you said this channel was boring, why did you come back?
18:04:13 <copumpkin> zzo38: happy canada day! http://gotstylemenswear.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/canadaday.jpeg
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18:06:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, elliott came back
18:10:47 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, not very talkative though
18:14:12 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, what's the weather like in the Hexham of the North that Isn't Helsinki?
18:15:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Standard Edinburgh weather, i.e. overcast.
18:15:59 <Phantom_Hoover> What's the weather like in the Hexham of the Hexham latitude?
18:18:16 <Taneb> Bright but drizzly
18:20:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah, the worst weather.
18:21:59 <Vorpal> I think it was the day before yesterday (or possibly the day before that) when it rained 41 mm / m² here.
18:22:12 <Vorpal> Been a very rainy start to the summer in most of Sweden
18:22:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Um...
18:22:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal.
18:22:32 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yes?
18:22:52 <Vorpal> what is it?
18:22:56 <Phantom_Hoover> You don't measure rainfall in mm / m^2.
18:23:06 <Phantom_Hoover> It's just mm.
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18:23:15 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well technically that is mm / m^2
18:23:18 <Vorpal> iirc
18:23:22 <Maharba> Nope.
18:23:28 <elliott> isn't it just... depth
18:23:35 <Vorpal> hm perhaps
18:23:39 <Maharba> How it works is there is a volume of rain over an area, which is a length.
18:23:58 <Taneb> Vorpal, you are wrong. Phantom_Hoover, Maharba, and elliott are right
18:24:15 <Vorpal> right, I found what I mixed it up with: "One millimeter of rainfall is the equivalent of one liter of water per square meter.[84]"
18:24:20 <Vorpal> my fault
18:24:30 <Phantom_Hoover> You could do it in litres per square metre, but that's obviously the same as mm unitwise.
18:24:37 <Vorpal> indeed
18:24:40 <elliott> Taneb: thank you for crushing his hopes and dreams :P
18:25:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, don't worry, there are lots of alternatives to being a meteorologist.
18:25:07 <Vorpal> elliott, I have no issue with admitting being wrong when that was the case :P
18:25:28 <Vorpal> today however the sun is shining here
18:25:38 <Taneb> I've got a friend who thinks sanguine rhymes with whine
18:25:44 <Taneb> As opposed to win
18:26:09 <Vorpal> Taneb, thats... interesting
18:26:19 <Taneb> She won't admit that she's wrong
18:26:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Could be worse, he could make it rhyme with... irvooine?
18:26:47 <Maharba> It _should_ rhyme with whine, but English is messed-up.
18:26:49 <Vorpal> Taneb, just show her a dictionary with the IPA in it?
18:27:07 <Taneb> Vorpal, odds of that working is slim
18:27:21 <Taneb> Maharba, it's like bother and brother
18:27:27 <Taneb> And countless other pairs
18:27:30 <Phantom_Hoover> That presumes she knows the IPA.
18:27:41 <Maharba> Taneb, precisely.
18:28:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Or reading/Reading. Or tear/tear.
18:28:25 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, iirc in most dictionaries I have seen there is a legend at the start showing how to decode IPA (by using examples of the sounds from simple words)
18:29:08 <Maharba> I'd rather those were pronounced, say, /tear/, or /readiN/, to use the X-Sampa encoding.
18:29:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, you could just get a dictionary with plain phonetic spelling.
18:29:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Maharba, you'd rather change the pronunciation to fit the orthography?
18:29:56 <Maharba> Either way, actually, as long as they match.
18:30:26 <zzo38> I too would rather change the pronunciation to fit the orthography
18:30:48 <Maharba> How would you change the orthography of <reading>, say?
18:30:59 <zzo38> Actually, I would rather it became an alternate but still accepted pronunciation, than the standard current one.
18:31:01 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, those exist? Nice
18:31:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, it's common in more basic dictionaries, like the ones you get in schools.
18:31:45 <zzo38> I have seen dictionaries using phonetic order
18:31:48 <Maharba> Anything using "plain phonetic spelling" other than the IPA is guaranteed more ambiguous and harder to understand.
18:31:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Big ones tend to use the IPA, sometimes exclusively.
18:32:11 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm, I guess back then I mostly worked with Swedish-English/English-Swedish ones. Never really used pure Swedish dictionaries that wasn't the official SAOL.
18:32:13 <zzo38> I agree IPA is better
18:32:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Maharba, um, no.
18:32:25 <Phantom_Hoover> More ambiguous, yes; harder to understand, no.
18:32:39 <Maharba> Not to me, at least.
18:32:42 <ion> IPA beers aren’t to my taste, but many people like them.
18:33:07 <Phantom_Hoover> The point is that it breaks words up into sections which have a fairly unambiguous standard representation.
18:33:21 <Phantom_Hoover> So you don't need to learn a separate system first.
18:33:33 <Maharba> I did not understand what you said there.
18:34:57 <Taneb> zzo38, phonetic order from the back of the word would be useful
18:35:14 <Maharba> For rhyming, yeah.
18:35:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Sanguine would be split into "sang" and "win"; both of these are not ambiguous with normal English orthography.
18:35:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Because they use normal English orthography, you don't need to learn anything more.
18:35:51 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I'd say it's "sang", "gwin"
18:35:53 <Maharba> But isn't it actually pronounced with /Ngw/ in the middle?
18:36:02 <Maharba> Ninja'd.
18:36:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Right; that was more a misstep on my part.
18:36:23 <Taneb> But your point's still there :)
18:36:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb's representation works.
18:36:49 <Maharba> With sang + gwin, though, the syllable break is in the wrong place.
18:37:12 <quintopia> sounds very sanguine
18:37:18 <boily> in French, it's /sA_~gin/.
18:37:32 <quintopia> wow
18:37:34 <Phantom_Hoover> If you can pronounce it with the two different syllable breaks I am very impressed
18:37:35 <quintopia> really?
18:37:55 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, it's sorta sa-nggwin
18:38:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Nope.
18:38:21 <quintopia> boily: that is an okay way to pronounce it, but i'll continue to pronounce the u
18:38:23 <Taneb> With a weird, nasal a sound
18:38:26 <Taneb> Kinda french, maybe?
18:38:29 <Phantom_Hoover> It's sang-gwin vs. sangg-win.
18:39:00 <Taneb> Well, I guess I'm weird, which isn't news to anyone
18:39:12 <Maharba> How would you represent French's /A_~/ in the "plain phonetic spelling"?
18:39:22 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I'm not sure how to pronounce the second of those.
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18:39:45 <Vorpal> doesn't make sense to me in English even. (And other languages are irrelevant here)
18:39:48 <boily> quintopia: that's an heresy! :p
18:39:55 <Phantom_Hoover> You wouldn't, because it's not a common English phoneme?
18:39:57 <oerjan> public announcement: the heap of threads you're considering picking up from the floor _may_ in fact be a spider.
18:39:58 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
18:40:02 <oerjan> end public announcement.
18:40:16 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, right
18:40:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, I have no idea how to pronounce the two differently.
18:40:20 <Maharba> So, Phantom_Hoover, you'd use a different system for each language.
18:40:35 <oerjan> @messages
18:40:35 <lambdabot> elliott said 1h 30m 39s ago: Not sure whether this change is accurate or not: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Deadfish&curid=2038&diff=33007&oldid=33006. You're the Deadfish person, you sort
18:40:35 <lambdabot> it out :
18:40:36 <lambdabot> elliott said 1h 30m 36s ago: *:p
18:40:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I guess maybe shifting the stress? Nah...
18:40:50 <boily> Maharba: as in ɑ̃ ?
18:41:02 <boily> (don't know if encoding went through)
18:41:11 <oerjan> elliott: well it's an accurate assessment of _some_ of the implementations.
18:41:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes? It's useful for representing English words in English, not French ones.
18:41:21 <Maharba> I got the letter fine, boily.
18:41:30 <boily> with the tilde and all?
18:41:32 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh was it supposed to be French?
18:41:36 <Maharba> Yes, boily.
18:41:45 <oerjan> admittedly i just today removed that feature from the pascal one
18:41:55 <Maharba> But IPA is generally useful; you don't need multiple systems.
18:41:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Sanguine is a French loanword, but its English pronunciation is significantly different to the French.
18:42:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Maharba, but it is not as accessible.
18:42:30 <Phantom_Hoover> So if you're making a dictionary for people who don't want to learn the IPA, it's not a good choice.
18:42:36 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I /guess/ the French pronunciation would be be more nasal?
18:42:37 <Maharba> To a non-native English speaker, the "englishy" system would be less accessible.
18:43:18 <Maharba> Even to some native speakers of English, IPA is easier.
18:43:22 <elliott> non-native speakers do not generally know IPA either
18:43:25 <Phantom_Hoover> OK? I said the system had limitations from the start, you don't need to point all of them out.
18:43:31 <Vorpal> Maharba, I'm not a native English speaker, but I never managed to remember IPA (if I needed it I just checked the key of the dictionary), the "englishy" system would work better for me nowdays at least
18:43:47 <elliott> does anyone know what Tektur's latest messages on the community portal talk page mean
18:44:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Um
18:44:44 <Phantom_Hoover> It makes sense but not in a way that fits into words.
18:44:46 <Maharba> elliott, I think he wants an OS written in an esolang for use as an emulation environment.
18:45:14 <Maharba> Or should that be in an emulation environment?
18:47:03 <Vorpal> it would probably be possible to write an OS in for example brainfuck, easy to compile to native code (you would need an extension for embedding some inline asm for the platform in question of course, unless you designed the ISA to fit what brainfuck could do)
18:47:42 <Maharba> For example, using memory-mapped controls.
18:47:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Well I mean if you can embed asm it's trivial to write an OS in BF, just not very interesting.
18:48:40 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well, the challenge would be to use as little asm as possible
18:49:12 <Vorpal> on x86 at least you will at least need some to poke various system registers and such
18:49:36 <Maharba> It would be a bit trickier to compile, but I think memory-mapped controls might remove any inline asm need.
18:49:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, how much access to registers does x86 actually need?
18:50:10 <Vorpal> Depends on if you want to stay in 16-bit mode or not I guess
18:50:40 <Vorpal> but if what you are doing doesn't fit into the MBR you at least need to do a few BIOS calls to load more data from the disk
18:50:53 <Vorpal> Maharba, that would either need a hypervisor or a custom ISA I guess?
18:51:05 <Vorpal> not sure if I understood you correctly though
18:52:17 <Vorpal> or I guess you could let grub load you into protected mode with multiboot
18:52:18 <Maharba> I hadn't thought it out much. Maybe the compiled code would poll those memory locations occasionally.
18:53:03 <Vorpal> Maharba, well standard BF wouldn't allow you to do any waiting, you would have to busy loop
18:53:18 <Vorpal> anyway one thing you would need is writing some interrupt handlers (if you want input)
18:53:43 <Vorpal> of course, it could keep polling
18:53:55 <Maharba> You could have some memory locations be addresses for interrupt handlers.
18:54:14 <Vorpal> also for it to be an OS I think you would need something more than a program just running on bare bones
18:54:19 <Maharba> Then we get into self-modifying code, though.
18:54:23 <Vorpal> like the ability to run different programs
18:54:38 <Maharba> BF's Turing-complete, it can run other programs.
18:54:47 <Vorpal> Maharba, well the code you wrote I mean
18:54:57 <Vorpal> the program that was the OS
18:55:21 <Vorpal> there is of course no clear line between what is just a program running on bare metal and what is an OS
18:55:38 <Maharba> My statement about self-modifying code was not in reply to yours, but a continuation of my previous one.
18:56:01 <Vorpal> right
18:56:24 <Vorpal> anyway, I imagined it being compiled into native machine code.
18:56:35 <Maharba> That would work.
19:03:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, PeterMolydeux actually has more followers on twitter than Peter Molyneux.
19:03:47 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, which one is the fake?
19:03:54 <itidus21> deux
19:04:06 <Vorpal> right
19:04:47 <Taneb> I only follow the latter
19:05:18 <Phantom_Hoover> you follow real peter molyneux
19:07:22 <Phantom_Hoover> I recall trying Fable 2 and getting bored quickly.
19:08:14 <Taneb> It was better than Fable 3
19:08:44 <Phantom_Hoover> So's ulcerative colitis, from what I hear.
19:08:45 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, was there ever a good Fable game?
19:09:01 <Taneb> Except if you played as a female character in 2 you ended up looking like a East German shotputter
19:09:14 <Vorpal> (I haven't played any of them, but I haven't heard anything good about any of them)
19:09:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, well I hear they're pretty fun as far as sidequests go, and the combat is decent.
19:09:32 <Taneb> 2's magic was a bit slow, too
19:09:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, Hm. So better combat than TES?
19:09:52 <Phantom_Hoover> But the main plots are abysmal and it of course falls victim to the Molyneux hypefest.
19:10:06 <itidus21> doing a google image searcch: East German shotputter Heidi Krieger underwent gender reassignment surgery
19:10:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, probably, but TES combat is pretty bad, although it's definitely improved.
19:10:33 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, to me it sounds like you mostly described Oblivion: fun side quests, abysmal main plot. :P (Though yeah TES has terrible combat)
19:10:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, but the problem with Fable is that it railroads you into the main plot.
19:11:00 <Vorpal> ouch
19:11:10 <Vorpal> so not open world?
19:11:16 <Phantom_Hoover> It's not like a TES game where you can fuck off and only miss out on a handful of dungeons.
19:11:29 <Phantom_Hoover> You *have* to go through it to access new areas.
19:11:54 <Vorpal> I never finished the main quest of oblivion. I did finish the Shivering Isles main quest. That was pretty decent actually.
19:12:13 <itidus21> she basically said fuck it, and went the whole way after being "force-fed cocktails of steroids and other performance-enhancing drugs"
19:12:39 <Phantom_Hoover> itidus21, WP article says she had gender dysphoria even before the drugs started.
19:12:44 <itidus21> humm
19:12:57 <itidus21> ok!
19:13:43 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, anyway, what about Fable 1? I don't remember hearing /anything/ about that game ever
19:13:50 <Vorpal> since there is a 2 there is presumably a 1?
19:13:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Better than 2, apparently.
19:14:00 <itidus21> lol.
19:14:14 <itidus21> vorpal just doesn't follow peter molyneux very closely
19:14:21 <Vorpal> indeed I don't
19:14:23 <Vorpal> why would I
19:14:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Still has a bad main plot.
19:14:39 <itidus21> he has such an interesting surname
19:14:55 <Vorpal> hm what happened to that kingdoms of amalur? Didn't the studio that made it go bankrupt recently?
19:15:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes.
19:15:40 <itidus21> not only that, rhode island had heavily invested in the company
19:15:52 <Vorpal> heh
19:17:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, oh also Fable shows a deep window into Molyneux's view of morality, i.e. that all ethical dilemmas boil down to "murder this child pointlessly or pay a million pounds to buy it a pony".
19:17:58 <Vorpal> I /assume/ that is an exaggeration?
19:18:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Not by much.
19:18:11 <Vorpal> ouch
19:18:35 <Vorpal> did he ever make something good?
19:18:54 <Taneb> Vorpal, no, he killed the child pointlessly
19:19:00 <Phantom_Hoover> His work in the 80s and early 90s is praised.
19:19:10 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, ah okay
19:19:36 <Phantom_Hoover> He's kind of coasted on that since.
19:20:14 <Taneb> If you ignore the morality and the main quest and the east german shotputters and the really slow magic, Fable 2 was a fun, entertaining game
19:20:44 <Vorpal> Taneb, but as Phantom_Hoover pointed out you needed to proceed with the main quest to unlock various areas?
19:20:59 <Taneb> Yes
19:21:10 <Vorpal> so what you just suggested is in fact impossible?
19:21:16 <Taneb> Most of the world is available before the final, stupidly long mission
19:21:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Also ISTR that the world involves a lot of quest hubs that you move between, but I played for a fairly short time a long time ago.
19:22:06 <Vorpal> If you are doing an open world game you really shouldn't force the player into any direction once they completed your tutorial level (Oblivion and Skyrim did it right. And from what I remember Morrowind didn't really have a tutorial except you had to walk through a couple of doors, no combat that I can remember)
19:23:38 <Vorpal> btw, that is one issue I had with GTA4, you had to do quite a bit of the main quest to unlock all islands.
19:24:01 <itidus21> looking on wikipedia, listening to what has been said about fable games in here.. bullfrog made good games, lionhead studios didn't
19:24:11 <itidus21> it's pretty much that simple
19:26:32 <Taneb> The Movies was a fun machinima tool
19:26:42 <Vorpal> brb
19:29:54 <itidus21> i really liked theme park and syndicate
19:30:07 <itidus21> i thought they were awesome
19:30:24 <itidus21> dungeon keeper i haven't tried
19:31:22 <Phantom_Hoover> I most often hear it compared with DF, which can only be a good thing.
19:31:57 <itidus21> he decided to make a game where you control the bad guys, and have to fend off heros.. i think its utter genius
19:32:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Sounding like Molydeux there.
19:33:56 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, from what I understand it, it is more like you are running the bad guys though
19:34:18 <Vorpal> and I only heard good things about it
19:34:39 <Phantom_Hoover> You're both making it sound like the only great thing the game did was have you play as the bad guys.
19:35:06 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, nah, I meant I only heard good things about the game in general
19:35:16 <Vorpal> but the big gimmick of the game was that you were the bad guy.
19:35:17 <itidus21> i don't know anything else about it really
19:35:17 <zzo38> There are other games where your character is bad guy including some text adventure games
19:35:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, luring heros into your dungeon and killing them and that sort of stuff
19:36:00 <itidus21> well the heroes come for you because you're evil :))
19:36:33 <itidus21> the premise makes me laugh, i'm sold on it
19:36:44 <Vorpal> itidus21, also presumably for looting?
19:37:23 <itidus21> one guy working on xbox live indie games(XBLIG) was trying a similar concept based on mario games.
19:37:48 <Taneb> That reminds me, how do I go about making android apps?
19:37:57 <Vorpal> itidus21, based on mario? What would Nintendo think about that?
19:38:10 <itidus21> yeah i recall a few people were critical of that aspect of it
19:38:30 <itidus21> not literally mario but a clone
19:38:38 <Vorpal> but I guess there could be a second mario game where you could play as bowser (Super Mario RPG had Bowser join your party at one point)
19:39:12 <ion> This program is funny even though i don’t understand the language. Apparently the name translates roughly to “don’t try this at home”. http://wgeostreaming.zdf.de/zdf/veryhigh/120629_folge1_nin.asx
19:39:13 <Vorpal> (he had been thrown out of his castle by a greater evil, so you basically decide to join forces, for the moment)
19:42:06 <itidus21> though i have super mario rpg rom.. and i am a final fantasy fan and a super mario fan.. ive still never played that
19:42:27 <Vorpal> itidus21, I had some problems emulating that rom. Not sure why
19:42:38 <Vorpal> never completed the game due to it freezing a lot.
19:42:46 <itidus21> oh crumbs
19:42:49 <Vorpal> it was however a stellar game
19:43:05 <zzo38> If you have some problems emulating that ROM, then it is a good thing you have it because then you could try to fix the emulator.
19:43:09 <Vorpal> itidus21, I don't think I tried bsnes, my computer at the time couldn't run it. So I probably used zsnes
19:43:47 <Vorpal> so using the accurate model of bsnes might be worth a try
19:44:05 <Vorpal> itidus21, the issues only really started towards the middle of the game
19:44:25 <itidus21> ah
19:45:27 <zzo38> My computer games do not always have a plot, for example some are just simple games which do not have a story (such as DOWN, BJACK, STARSTAK, MATCHNUM, Xnazzyball, Disk Catch, etc), while Super ASCII MZX Town has not a very good plot since you just figure out stuff as you go along, find keys and keycards, and then BIG_MONSTER at the end...
19:46:55 <zzo38> There is also MEDIUM_SIZE_MONSTER; once BIG_MONSTER says to him "I am sorry Dave, I cannot let you to do it" and then he responds "Hay! How do you know my real name?"
19:47:51 <Taneb> A wild Zzo (Lv. 38) appeared!
19:48:35 <zzo38> But mostly they consist of rooms that do not have much relation between their purposes; they are just various different areas such as the store, library, puzzle game, castle (with two sides: the kingside and the queenside), the Spanish Inquisition, etc. They are just various places you either go to find keycards, keys, or the passage to next area
19:51:41 <zzo38> And in one level you have to beat Dr.Gray, who has a laser proof vest, and if you beat him then he gives you the purple key (the only thing he owns that isn't gray).
19:55:40 <Taneb> Goodnight
19:55:40 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
19:58:44 <zzo38> But, the other game I make (not quite complete, but much shorter than Super ASCII MZX Town) is Potion of Confusing, which has a somewhat better and more coherent plot: Go into the passages to find nice purple keys. Hold second one as you hold a pencil.
20:00:48 <zzo38> The king hates anyone who has solved these puzzles also hates gibbering mouther and so on, so the king has ordered his army to kill them (and you). To stop them, you have to find the contract and write "VOID" on it, but first you have to go to library to learn about it, and it has a magic on it that you cannot adjust it except by writing on it by the second purple key.
20:01:03 <zzo38> Once you wrote "VOID" then the army will attack the king instead.
20:03:47 -!- Maharba has quit (Quit: Page closed).
20:04:19 <zzo38> And then you can find the Potion of Confusing.
20:11:37 -!- edwardk has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
20:12:39 <ion> Poor lion :-( http://youtu.be/6fbahS7VSFs
20:18:26 <itidus21> in the jungle, the mighty jungle, the lion sleeps toniiiiiiiiaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
20:18:50 <itidus21> -drum solo-
20:24:16 <elliott> hi
20:25:07 <mroman> Ziim looks really awesome.
20:25:18 -!- ion has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
20:25:25 -!- ion_ has joined.
20:29:39 <elliott> oerjan: An other one, compiling on JDK1.1 (just in case you have some reason to stay away from ORACLE).
20:30:12 <elliott> oerjan: btw i don't know if http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Deadfish&diff=next&oldid=33024 broke anything or not
20:30:19 <elliott> hmm
20:30:23 <elliott> oerjan: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Deadfish&diff=next&oldid=33025 he reverted your change, it seems.
20:30:38 <elliott> oh you replied
20:34:52 <oerjan> i don't think that broke anything, the two switched lines should never be triggered on the same iteration
20:35:43 -!- ion_ has changed nick to ion.
20:37:27 <oerjan> the pascal change broke some things, which i fixed again. i'm pretty sure OR is an original pascal keyword, but that doesn't matter so i didn't undo that.
20:37:55 <oerjan> i'm wondering if i should fix his java, given that JTS's java is _also_ broken
20:38:24 <oerjan> although in a different way
20:38:34 <oerjan> elliott: ^
20:51:00 <zzo38> Can you generalize van Laarhoven lenses to other categories?
20:53:18 <elliott> oerjan: heh
20:54:46 <zzo38> I have thought of why you wanted (>>=) to be a method of a monad class, but I think return and join should be, and then require it to be a endofunctor as a superclass. Well, I think (>>=) shouldn't be, but perhaps as well as return and join, (=<<) can be made a method so that they can define in terms of each other including the endofunctor. Since, this way it can work for monads on other categories too.
20:55:44 <zzo38> (=<<) is like a functor from the Kleisli category (represented using the base category instead of the Kleisli category) to the base category.
20:56:12 <zzo38> That is why I think (>>=) should not be a class method.
20:57:06 <zzo38> And also why join should be a class method.
20:57:20 <Phantom_Hoover> hey elliott does scone rhyme with con
20:57:35 <elliott> Yes.
20:58:10 <Phantom_Hoover> very good
20:58:35 <Phantom_Hoover> (its important you keep track of whos harbouring scone heresy)
21:00:28 * oerjan has less and less idea how to pronounce english lately
21:00:47 <olsner> tip: it's not exactly norwegian
21:00:57 <oerjan> WOW
21:01:13 <olsner> I know! it's mind blowing
21:01:31 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, just pronounce scone correctly and you're good.
21:01:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Everything else is window-dressing.
21:01:46 <zzo38> (Look it up in the dictionary if you don't know.)
21:02:13 <oerjan> AAAAA wiktionary shows _two_ options
21:02:38 <Phantom_Hoover> CHOOSE
21:03:41 <oerjan> ah but it's ok because only one of them is allowed to rhyme
21:04:23 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, how is it pronounced? (Not IPA please, I never managed to remember that)
21:04:52 <Vorpal> "scon"?
21:04:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes.
21:05:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Awful people say 'scoan'.
21:05:25 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, heh I thought it rhymed with "cone"
21:05:37 <Vorpal> oh well, we learn something new every day
21:05:42 <zzo38> If the dictionary shows two options then probably both are acceptable
21:06:16 <Phantom_Hoover> NO that is WRONGHEADED SCOAN THINKING
21:06:24 * oerjan watches an unstoppable Phantom_Hoover hit an unmovable zzo38
21:06:41 <Vorpal> oerjan, is that an SCP reference?
21:06:48 <oerjan> no.
21:06:49 <Vorpal> I seem to remember something like that from there
21:06:51 <Vorpal> oh well
21:07:01 <Phantom_Hoover> No, it's a reference to the unstoppable force meets immovable object idiom.
21:07:12 <Vorpal> oh okay, that is an idiom?
21:07:17 <oerjan> which scp may very well have used...
21:07:45 <oerjan> ancient scholastic conundrum, i thought
21:08:04 <Vorpal> the solution is of course that no such objects exists
21:08:20 <olsner> related, I think, to that one about god constructing an object he can't break
21:08:34 <olsner> also almost a chuck norris fact
21:08:38 <Vorpal> :D
21:09:34 <Vorpal> seriously though, why did Chuck Norris end up with that meme. He isn't the only actor that played baddass roles.
21:09:38 <Vorpal> badass*
21:09:53 <olsner> I guess he was lucky
21:09:54 <Vorpal> Arnold Schwarzenegger for example
21:10:13 <Vorpal> (he got the "I'll be back" one though)
21:10:50 <olsner> there used to be facts about other actors, but when those facts heard about chuck norris they changed
21:10:52 <fizzie> I remember very vague bits and pieces of a (probably sci-fi-ish) novel that had unstoppable force/immovable object stuffs in it. Also, it was weird.
21:11:05 <fizzie> Oh, it wasn't sci-fi, it was just http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walking_on_Glass
21:11:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Walking on Glass!
21:11:34 <Phantom_Hoover> That's my favourite Banks novel because it makes absolutely no goddamn sense.
21:11:34 <olsner> Vorpal: maybe you should consult the Internet, it might know stuff like that
21:11:53 <fizzie> "Iain Banks commented that the book 'didn’t do exactly what it set out to do and I think you have failed to an extent if the reader can’t understand what you’re saying. I worry sometimes that people will read Walking on Glass and think in some way I was trying to fool them, which I wasn’t.'"
21:11:59 <Vorpal> olsner, guess what I'm doing atm!
21:11:59 <fizzie> Yes, it really doesn't.
21:12:03 <olsner> "... and the ending has a flavour of incest."
21:12:13 <Vorpal> olsner, yes IRC is part of the internet
21:12:24 <Vorpal> (you maybe meant "the world wide web"?)
21:12:34 <fizzie> olsner: I can't say I honestly remember that part. I just remember the weird games, and that the riddle was being used.
21:12:37 <olsner> Vorpal: no, gopher
21:12:43 <Vorpal> oh okay.
21:12:45 <Vorpal> fair enough
21:12:49 <Phantom_Hoover> I guess it does if you think about it, but he totally failed to actually tie anything together substantially.
21:14:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Also the unstoppable force stuff is this man in this woman locked in this weird prison thing for some reason and they have to play games and when they finish a given game they get to offer an answer to the question and if they get it right they get let out.
21:14:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Erm.
21:14:12 <Phantom_Hoover> *man and this woman
21:15:20 <zzo38> Well, IRC, gopher, WWW, are all part of internet. We ask question in IRC but can also look up some things in Wikipedia.
21:15:21 <Phantom_Hoover> (The other two thirds of a book consist of a man hankering after some woman who is secretly shagging her brother who is also his gay friend, and a paranoid construction worker.)
21:15:44 <fizzie> The Microwave Gun parts remind me of some other paranoid nutcase story.
21:15:56 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, this sounds kind of awesome
21:16:03 <Vorpal> due to being so crazy
21:16:26 <itidus21> being a paranoid nutcase isn't as much fun as it sounds
21:16:36 <itidus21> mostly
21:16:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, the problem is that the book draws you in with the promise that all these narratives will be taken together and brought to a close, and then completely fails to do so.
21:17:06 <itidus21> >_>
21:17:19 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, ouch.
21:17:55 <fizzie> Incidentally, "you can't have both in the same universe" was one of their answer candidates.
21:18:03 <fizzie> As was that stupid "The immovable object loses; force always wins!"
21:18:18 * itidus21 slowly starts to remember that good books actually exist.
21:18:21 <Vorpal> that doesn't even make any sense
21:18:35 <Vorpal> itidus21, you should go read the Discworld books maybe?
21:18:35 <zzo38> What about this answer? "The force passes through the immovable object."
21:18:39 <Phantom_Hoover> The extent of their interaction is that the lovestruck guy obliviously triggers a car accident which injures the construction worker and the man in the prison wanders off and finds the construction worker plugged into a computer.
21:18:54 <itidus21> too mainstream
21:18:55 <zzo38> And this one? "The immovable object warps geometry so that the unstoppable force never manages to touch it anyways."
21:19:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Also the answer is basically given during one of the worker's chapters as "the unstoppable force stops, the immovable object moves".
21:19:14 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, plugged into a computer? As in some sort of cyborg thing?
21:19:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, the sun's gone out and everyone's in a simulated world. Or something.
21:19:42 <itidus21> Vorpal: what i mean to say is that a given random book can be really cool, even if the author is unheard of :D
21:19:45 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, ah
21:20:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh wait no, they're experiencing the memories of people in the past without actually influencing them or something.
21:20:08 <itidus21> the longer i go without reading books, the more i forget how good some of them are
21:20:09 <zzo38> How well do you think of the geometry one?
21:20:10 <Vorpal> itidus21, right, but the Discworld books are still good. So stop trying to be hippie
21:20:10 <Phantom_Hoover> It's one of the things that's never really elaborated upon.
21:20:29 <fizzie> Also there was that war thing.
21:20:34 <itidus21> i can't like a recommended book :D
21:21:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Wasn't that a simulation too or something?
21:21:20 <fizzie> It might've been. The latter parts are especially vague to me.
21:21:26 <zzo38> Actually here is another answer I made up: "The unstoppable force never meets the immovable object because of quantum uncertainty; the possibility that it does is discarded and a different collapse is performed instead."
21:21:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Hipster, Vorpal, you mean hipster.
21:21:31 <itidus21> the last book i read which counts as a book was the dwarf by par lagerkvist
21:21:41 <itidus21> that was smashing
21:21:44 <fizzie> But I remember that "the unstoppable force stops; the immovable object moves" answer that appeared somewhere.
21:21:56 <Phantom_Hoover> I think it was on a matchbook.
21:22:10 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, err yes
21:22:11 <Vorpal> weird typo
21:22:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh yeah, paranoid construction worker gets sent to a psychiatric hospital in the wake of the car accident and finds the matchbook for some reason.
21:22:29 <zzo38> Another answer: "It is wrong because the movement has to be relative to something."
21:22:32 <Vorpal> I can't imagine a hippie itidus21 XD
21:22:34 <itidus21> i don't know why.. maybe because i was excited that it said nobel prize on the side.. but i later learned that the author gets the prize not the book
21:22:44 <fizzie> Hey, I have to wake up in like three or four hours to catch a plane. That's suboptimal.
21:22:46 <zzo38> (I made up these answers)
21:22:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, well he already has disgusting long hippie hair.
21:22:53 <Vorpal> he does?
21:23:02 <Vorpal> have you seen a photo of him!?
21:23:04 <zzo38> Which answers do you think are better for this unstoppable force question?
21:23:15 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, just don't sleep and then sleep on the plane!
21:23:41 <itidus21> Vorpal: i'm weird
21:23:41 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: It's like a three-hour flight, that's not much sleep. I should do some actual work after arriving and all.
21:23:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, ouch, where are you going?
21:24:07 <fizzie> Vorpal: Belgium; that's why I was wondering about potential .be people.
21:24:11 <Vorpal> ah
21:24:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, what are you doing there? Work I presume from what you said
21:24:30 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, then you get the same sleep either way!
21:24:46 <itidus21> one thing i learned about books is that most so-called classics really aren't very much fun in english
21:25:01 <itidus21> frankenstein was good. very good
21:25:03 <fizzie> Vorpal: There's a university in Leuven, I'll be visiting their speech people, who we've coauthored papers with previously too.
21:25:05 <zzo38> Are they better in Klingon?
21:25:17 <itidus21> i have a theory they might be better in the native language
21:25:20 <fizzie> (For a month.)
21:25:30 <itidus21> maybe i haven't actually read many
21:25:34 <Vorpal> itidus21, well of course most books are better untranslated (if you can read the language in question)
21:25:35 <itidus21> and i'm purely speculating
21:25:46 <Vorpal> guess why I have the Discworld books in English for example
21:25:56 <zzo38> Vorpal: Well, yes.
21:26:06 <Vorpal> (or anything that was published in English originally)
21:26:15 <itidus21> ahhh
21:26:21 <zzo38> But still, if their native language is neither English nor Klingon, are some of them better in Klingon than English?
21:26:34 <Vorpal> itidus21, matters a lot more than usual for Discworld due to all the puns.
21:26:52 <itidus21> ah
21:26:59 <Vorpal> zzo38, .. Why Klingon? And why would I know Klingon?
21:27:07 <zzo38> I think I read somewhere that the Jabberwocky is better in Klingon than English even though it was originally written in English.
21:27:56 <Vorpal> itidus21, anyway, surely you must have read some literature in a non-English language? What did you take as your second language in school?
21:28:06 <itidus21> no i haven't
21:28:16 <Vorpal> I don't expect you to be able to read a novel in whatever the third language you took was
21:28:18 <itidus21> at most i've learned to say a few words in foreign languages
21:28:36 <olsner> Vorpal: native english-speakers don't learn other languages, silly
21:28:41 <itidus21> i've never read an entire page of text in a foreign language
21:28:57 <Vorpal> olsner, oh right
21:28:58 <itidus21> well i had some troubles in school
21:29:07 <itidus21> i was very eager about languages
21:29:12 <olsner> except those who learn Klingon, I guess
21:29:13 <itidus21> but
21:29:23 <itidus21> humm
21:29:37 <Vorpal> olsner, what about the languages from Tolkins books?
21:29:46 <Vorpal> forgot what the elven languages were called
21:30:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Sindarin and Quenya.
21:30:02 <itidus21> i don't know what actuality i am speaking about
21:30:06 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, thanks
21:30:18 <Phantom_Hoover> They've got limited official vocabularies, though.
21:30:39 <Phantom_Hoover> I am so glad elliott isn't listening to the channel right now.
21:30:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I always mix the first one up with Simarillon (sp?) which is another Tolkin thing
21:30:47 <itidus21> basically there are conditions and requisites to learning any language
21:30:52 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and why?
21:31:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal do you really think I would know what Sindarin is but not the Silmarillion?
21:31:12 <itidus21> you can't just start learning without some kind of motive force
21:31:16 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, no, I just said I always mix them up
21:31:28 <Phantom_Hoover> itidus21, a lesson you demonstrate all too well.
21:31:43 <Vorpal> itidus21 has a motive force?
21:31:53 <olsner> what is a motive force?
21:32:07 <itidus21> im trying to say something not sure what
21:32:30 <Vorpal> olsner, it is a force that comes in two variants: the unstoppable and the unmoveable
21:32:36 <Vorpal> olsner, I suspect itidus21 has the latter
21:32:59 <itidus21> like for instance, you can't have your cake and eat it
21:33:05 <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover> I am so glad elliott isn't listening to the channel right now.
21:33:06 <elliott> What?
21:33:10 <Phantom_Hoover> I suspect that an unstoppable motive force wouls still be unable to get iti to develop personally.
21:33:10 <itidus21> but you can desire, and even plan to have your cake and eat it.
21:33:27 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I just admitted to knowledge of elf languages.
21:33:47 <Vorpal> hahah
21:33:58 <itidus21> but, if you plan to have your cake and eat it, and if you act upon that plan, unbeknownst to you is that you will invariably fail
21:34:36 <Vorpal> what
21:35:03 <itidus21> but if you just plan to have cake, without the constraint of eating it too, then you might succeed
21:35:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Don't worry. I'm a friend of the elves, man.
21:35:40 <olsner> elfiott
21:36:03 <Phantom_Hoover> you
21:36:05 <Phantom_Hoover> you've changed
21:36:26 <olsner> `? elliott
21:36:36 <HackEgo> elliott wrote this learn DB, and wrote or improved many of the other commands in this bot. He probably has done other things?
21:36:40 <itidus21> so, for example, it's not enough to just buy a bilingual dictionary and begin study from there.
21:37:28 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I'm surprised you haven't changed though after playing Skyrim. Some of the coolest ruins in Skyrim are the Dwemer ones. And those are elven (the Dwemer, dwarfs, were actually a kind of elves according to TES lore)
21:37:33 <itidus21> ironically, the most common type of book about foreign languages on any given bookshelf is the bilingual dictionary
21:37:34 <shachaf> elliott is a friend of nobody. Just a h8r.
21:37:37 <shachaf> :-(
21:38:12 <Phantom_Hoover> They get a pass because they all disappeared whilst building a giant robot in a volcano so they could take over the universe.
21:38:21 <Phantom_Hoover> They put most dwarves to shame.
21:38:22 <Vorpal> well yes
21:39:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Also when some other elves came grovelling for help after losing to Swedes they blinded and enslaved them which is hardcore dorf.
21:39:17 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, err?
21:39:19 <Vorpal> what?
21:39:26 <Vorpal> oh right, the falmer
21:40:20 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, anyway I think the dwemer ruins are the most interesting dungeons in Skyrim. After the 20th ruin with undead it gets kind of boring
21:40:44 <Vorpal> sure a few dungeons have unique gimmicks that make it interesting but... there aren't that many of those
21:41:06 <Phantom_Hoover> They have irritatingly tough enemies though so it kind of balances out.
21:41:13 <Vorpal> well yes
21:41:17 <Vorpal> what did you think of Blackreach btw (if you got there?)
21:41:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Best location, although they could've tried a little harder to get you to explore than that awful collection quest.
21:42:09 <Vorpal> pretty much what I thought too. "What a wasted potential"
21:42:40 <Vorpal> I have nothing against collecting nirnroot as long as I can do it while on my way elsewhere
21:42:58 <Phantom_Hoover> The DLC apparently adds more Falmer stuff so there might be more to do there.
21:43:12 <Vorpal> ooh, when is it coming out for PC?
21:43:24 <Vorpal> iirc there was an xbox timed exclusive deal on those
21:43:40 <Phantom_Hoover> A month after the Xbox version.
21:43:53 <Vorpal> well, when is the xbox one coming out? Or is it out already?
21:44:02 <Phantom_Hoover> It's been out for like a week.
21:44:05 <Vorpal> ah okay
21:45:27 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh also Blackreach was too hard to navigate. An outdoor style map would have been needed for it.
21:46:00 <Vorpal> anyway I need to sleep, early morning tomorrow
21:46:02 <Vorpal> cya
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21:57:57 <zzo38> I like GCC's ?: operator with nothing in between, since it is useful
21:59:01 <zzo38> Is it useful to you?
21:59:53 <Lumpio-> What does it do?
21:59:58 <zzo38> Some people hate the ? : operator in C (regardless of whether or not GNU extensions are used) but I think it is good (regardless of GNU extensions).
22:00:00 <Lumpio-> I'm guessing something like || in JavaScript
22:00:08 <zzo38> Lumpio-: Yes, it does the same as || in JavaScript
22:00:28 <Lumpio-> I like ?: because it's the only functional-style conditional in the language
22:00:38 <Lumpio-> Well, with a proper return value.
22:00:45 <Lumpio-> I guess you could hack some conditionals with && and || but...
22:02:25 <zzo38> They should also add the one that is like && in JavaScript. Sometimes I use multiplication for that purpose but it is not chort-circuiting and it has to be boolean on one side 0 or 1 to work like that
22:10:39 <Lumpio-> For instance when would you use that
22:12:12 <zzo38> Something similar is: send_note(ch,channels[ch].transpose+(channels[ch].octave+(c<scale_base))*octave_tones+note_letter[c-'a'],0,&s); Except here I simplified the formula instead of writing (c<scale_base)*octave_tones
22:14:18 <itidus21> zzo38: i am working on another view
22:16:17 <itidus21> if applied to music, it would have 3 instructions for the flute (i am naive if the flute has extra aspects). #1 cover hole(x) #2 uncover hole(x) #3blow
22:16:51 <itidus21> perhaps #3 blow(duration)
22:17:10 <itidus21> maybe also #4 pause(duration)
22:19:35 <itidus21> this conception is based on esolangs (no offence)
22:20:02 <zzo38> If what is applied to music and have instructions for the flute?
22:20:33 <itidus21> my recent ideas
22:21:59 <itidus21> cover(3) cover(4) blow(2 seconds) pause(1 second) uncover(3) cover(2) cover(6) blow(3 seconds)
22:22:12 <itidus21> that would be the idea applied to flute
22:22:48 <itidus21> as i am not a musician, i don't know how well that applies
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22:29:25 <zzo38> I don't know how to play flute, so I don't know either
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23:04:46 <lament> holy shit guys
23:05:16 <zzo38> What about holy shit guys?
23:05:27 <lament> i just realized i ran a brainfuck golf contest ten years ago
23:05:31 <lament> mind blown
23:06:09 <shachaf> hi lament
23:06:15 <shachaf> Want to help us golf?
23:06:17 <shachaf> @where e_10
23:06:18 <lambdabot> let(p,q)%d=p*d`div`q;w(p,q)i=(p*i+1,q*i);(x:y:s)^d|y%d>x%d=s^d|0<1=mod(x%d)10:s^(10*d)in 2:scanl w(1,1)[1..]^10>>=show
23:06:25 <shachaf> Er, not that.
23:06:26 <shachaf> @where pi_10
23:06:27 <lambdabot> (!!1)<$>transpose[show$sum[100^2^n`div`(a^i*i)*(8-i.&.3*4)|i<-[1,3..9*2^n],a<-[2,3]]|n<-[0..]]
23:06:32 <shachaf> @@ @run @where pi_10
23:06:34 <lambdabot> "31415926535897932384626433832795028841971693993751058209749445923078164062...
23:06:44 <lament> shachaf: why would i
23:07:05 <shachaf> How would I know your motivations?
23:07:34 <lament> presumably you have some sort of mental model of me based on past interactions and other data
23:07:58 <shachaf> I know you're unpredictable.
23:08:13 <zzo38> I found the scale of 16-31 harmonics in Wikipedia, I figured out the same kinds of things, except that I called 30 B and 31 B sharp (or C flat).
23:09:22 <zzo38> 16=C 17=C#=Db 18=D 19=D#=Eb 20=E 21=F 22=F# 23=Gb 24=G 25=G# 26=Ab 27=A 28=A# 29=Bb 30=B 31=B#=Cb 32=C
23:21:24 <quintopia> zzo38: B# means C and Cb means B. perhaps call it B.25?
23:21:56 <zzo38> quintopia: In the standard scale, B# means C and Cb means B. But this is a different scale.
23:26:07 <zzo38> In a Bohlen-Pierce scale, D# is the same as E.
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23:55:57 <elliott> https://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=62450
23:56:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Wow.
23:56:55 <Phantom_Hoover> It looks like it must have been autogenerated but I can't give the PHP guys that much creidt.
23:56:58 <Phantom_Hoover> *credit
23:57:04 <Phantom_Hoover> (i sneezed ok)
23:59:38 <FireFly> "has literally never been used by anyone" -- how would they know that?
2012-07-02
00:00:04 <Phantom_Hoover> The function actually has a hook that alerts them whenever it's used.
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00:38:08 <elliott> hi ais523
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00:45:42 <quintopia> ttiolle ih
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01:28:22 <elliott> hi ais523
01:38:57 <ais523> hi elliott
01:39:00 <ais523> network issues
01:39:18 <ais523> hmm, this year's junethack was fun; Berry played a game that scored more points than in all previous NetHack games ever added together
01:39:35 <elliott> haha
01:39:39 <elliott> how did they pull that off?
01:39:53 <ais523> they found a 64-bit server :)
01:40:06 <ais523> it actually took both him and me quite a bit of effort to work out how to max it on a 64-bit server
01:40:16 <ais523> there are quite a few plain "int"s that get in the way
01:40:52 <ais523> especially in encumberance
01:41:11 <ais523> he was billions of times over his encumberance limit on the turn he ascended
01:41:17 <elliott> haha
01:41:20 <ais523> but apparently that doesn't affect #offer
01:41:40 <elliott> ais523: there's a new roguelike that's popular in ##crawl you might like
01:41:41 <ais523> (he actually needed two tries to do the last bit; the first time, he dropped the amulet for spellcasting and couldn't pick it up…)
01:41:44 <ais523> what's it called?
01:42:16 <elliott> ais523: Sil; http://www.amirrorclear.net/flowers/game/sil/ -- it has neat things like giving EXP just for encountering monsters, identifying items, and reaching new depths, so you can do fun stuff like pacifist diving
01:42:29 <elliott> ais523: it's technically a *band derivative, but rewrites almost all of the mechanics, and thoroughly discourages grinding
01:42:40 <elliott> (there's diminishing exp returns for killing creatures of the same type, for instance)
01:43:06 <elliott> it's supposed to focus on tactical combat and so on... elliptic is very good at it; I haven't had a chance to play it properly yet but mean to sometime
01:43:23 <ais523> hmm, interesting
01:43:33 <ais523> and ofc, angband's engine doesn't necessarily lead to angbandy games
01:45:14 <elliott> a few tips if you do play it: the standard build works fine; pass -mgcu to use the curses interface, although you can also just build a curses-only build if you edit the makefile and choose that configuration; and the interactive tutorial is very good
01:45:34 <elliott> oh, and the %s are walls.
01:46:47 <elliott> ais523: oh yes, and if you're in a menu, ignore wherever it places the cursor
01:46:55 <elliott> it may seem to correspond to where in the menu you are, but it is lies
01:47:14 <elliott> ais523: oh, and you can turn on vikeys control in the menu
01:50:14 <coppro> elliott: whywhywhywhywhy
01:50:19 <coppro> am i giving a talk on agda
01:50:45 <elliott> idk
01:51:27 <coppro> what's a good example of something interesting I can prove with it
01:51:35 <coppro> in like 20 minutes
01:51:39 <coppro> to a group that doesn't have a clue
01:51:54 <elliott> what's the group
01:52:18 <ais523> coppro: one I've seen is proving that the reverse of the reverse of a list equals the list itself
01:52:33 <ais523> (CSy lists, which have a head and a tail, and the standard recursive definition of reverse)
01:52:55 <coppro> elliott: undergraduate mathematics students
01:53:04 <coppro> ais523: looking for something more mathematically interesting
01:53:15 <coppro> I don't need to explain every step
01:53:25 <itidus21> humm
01:53:25 <coppro> but it needs to be such that it doesn't explode minds
01:53:56 <itidus21> think highschool
01:54:15 <coppro> (the exact audience is the canadian undergraduate mathematics conference; I have a 45-minute talk and I plan to spend the first half or so explaining curry-howard and giving the very basics in agda
01:55:41 <itidus21> well whats the most trivial proofs?
01:56:39 <coppro> I want something 'cool'
01:56:48 <coppro> ideally
01:56:51 <itidus21> i assume that an equation such as 1+1=2 or c = sqrt(a^2 + b^2) alone is not sufficient to need proof
01:56:57 <coppro> yeah
01:57:15 <coppro> like, uniqueness of the reals is cool and deep, but it's probably too complex for my talk
01:58:36 <coppro> (since it requires construction of the reals and field isomorphisms)
01:58:44 <coppro> /might/ be able to do construction of the reals if I hurry
01:58:53 <coppro> possibly a proof from group theory
01:59:39 <itidus21> agda has a surprising number of meanings
01:59:58 <coppro> hehe
02:00:01 <coppro> any ideaS?
02:00:03 <coppro> *ideas
02:00:15 <coppro> elliott: also you have ruined my life
02:00:21 <coppro> I'm going to write a haskell package
02:00:25 <elliott> good
02:00:34 <elliott> did you learn haskell because of me ror something
02:02:04 <coppro> elliott: no but you made me know about conduit
02:02:09 <coppro> and now I'm going to write a utility library for it
02:02:22 <elliott> 2 bad conduit sux
02:02:39 <coppro> lol
02:03:14 <coppro> all haskell libraries suck
02:16:44 <edwardk> ?
02:17:26 <edwardk> i think its just that all haskell libraries that deal with anything called an iteratee, pipe or conduit tends to suck ;)
02:18:03 <coppro> haha
02:18:20 <coppro> I like conduit
02:18:27 <coppro> cps is the best :P
02:19:23 <shachaf> edwardk: Extrapolating, by 2013 over 50% of Haskell libraries are going to be called one of those things.
02:19:29 <edwardk> shachaf: hah
02:19:41 <edwardk> shachaf: i'll keep up the good fight against the tide
02:20:07 <shachaf> thedwardk
02:20:44 <elliott> i agree with the author of pipes on conduit but i don't like pipes either
02:20:52 <elliott> if only cmccann hasn't mysteriously vanished I could use his library
02:20:55 <elliott> *hadn't
02:21:57 <shachaf> What happened to cmccann?
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02:23:08 <elliott> he disappeared
02:23:09 <elliott> mysteriously
02:23:16 <elliott> at least i haven't seen him anywhere for months
02:23:47 <Phantom_Hoover> ooh mystery
02:23:53 <Phantom_Hoover> wasn't cmccann female
02:24:37 <itidus21> the plot thickens!
02:26:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I don't believe so???
02:27:02 <Phantom_Hoover> camccann?
02:27:16 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm pretty sure camccann is female
02:27:53 <elliott> well he has referred to himself with male pronouns on IRC so...
02:28:04 <Phantom_Hoover> O.o
02:28:09 <shachaf> I don't think he was female.
02:28:15 <shachaf> Maybe he was, though. Who knows.
02:28:26 <elliott> I like how we are using the past tense here.
02:28:38 <Phantom_Hoover> I distinctly recall there being some Haskeller on SO who you referred to with female pronouns but oh well.
02:28:40 <itidus21> Phantom_Hoover: well you did say cAmccann.. and shachaf said cmaccann
02:28:49 <itidus21> perhaps different people?
02:28:57 <elliott> The plot thickens.
02:29:01 <itidus21> oops now i started making typos
02:29:21 <shachaf> @google "whoever invented the mysterious force"
02:29:22 <lambdabot> http://qdb.rawrnix.com/?browse&3
02:29:23 <lambdabot> Title: Browse Quotes
02:29:33 <Phantom_Hoover> I note that his website has a single enigmatic message on it.
02:29:37 <coppro> edwardk: as far as I can tell, you produce interesting libraries
02:29:43 <coppro> conduit and co are useful ones :P
02:29:50 <coppro> and never the twain shall meet
02:29:51 <elliott> edwardk's libraries ar eperfectly useful
02:29:56 <itidus21> as for camccann on twitter she just "I just unlocked the 4sqDay 2012 badge on @foursquare! Cupcakes and crowns for all! http://4sq.com/HRIX9p"
02:30:00 <elliott> I use them regularly
02:34:07 <itidus21> camccann has a stack overflow rep of over 35,900
02:36:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Like a bloodhound catching a scent, itidus21 is on the case!
02:36:31 <itidus21> hmm
02:36:41 <itidus21> i don't care it's not my business
02:38:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Your first reaction to a dilemma *isn't* stalking?
02:38:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Of course it is, laziness permitting.
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03:44:38 <edwardk> re: cmccann cmccann is definitely male. i've met him and offered him a job before. =P
03:45:29 <zzo38> OK
03:45:54 <edwardk> he's also in michigan, while that christina person is in pennsylvania ;)
03:47:59 <zzo38> Do you know that I have recorded a Dungeons&Dragons game I was playing in (and it is still in progress)?
03:48:30 <zzo38> Do you ever use TeX?
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04:06:17 <itidus21> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domain-specific_entertainment_language
04:14:40 <elliott> edwardk: pertinent questions from zzo38 I think
04:22:17 <zzo38> Other question includes:
04:22:17 <zzo38> ?
04:47:40 <zzo38> Do you think it should be return and join methods of Monad and then have Functor as superclass and (>>=) is not a method? I have read why you wanted (>>=) a method so I instead proposal (in Ibtlfmm, perhaps) to have (=<<) as a method because that way works better with other categories.
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05:07:09 <edwardk> Personally I prefer the use of (>>=) in code to the use of a separate join and fmap. The latter two are almost always used in conjunction, and are harder to optimize when written separately, while the (>>=) is rarely much more expensive than join
05:07:59 <zzo38> Then you have: type MonadCR (c :: k -> k -> *) (m :: k -> k) :: & = (CategoryR r c, EndofunctorCR c m, MonadLawsCR c m, method return :: r x => c x (m x), method join :: r x => c (m (m x)) (m x), method (=<<) :: (r x, r y) => c x (m y) -> c (m x) (m y)); together with default definitions.
05:09:32 <zzo38> edwardk: I understand, and I also agree that often you do want to use join and fmap together and >>= is convenient shortcut I use that a lot. However I still think join should be a method so that you can define it in that way, and also I explained why there should use =<< as some method rather than >>= what do you think of this? (You would still have >>= but it is not a class method)
05:09:44 <edwardk> You do realize by naming a language after map succ "haskell", you open yourself to jokes about making haskell succ, right? =)
05:10:24 <zzo38> edwardk: Now I do, and I have no problems with that.
05:11:07 <edwardk> the price of defining join with (>>=) is the evaluation of an identity function at each binding site. it has really near zero operational cost
05:11:51 <edwardk> i wouldn't mind defining them interrelatedly, but i don't really mind its absence
05:12:12 <zzo38> I agree; it could even be done and simplified at compile time if wanted somehow; but still you might want to define in terms of join.
05:12:59 <edwardk> aywys about the succ thing it only game up because i'm working on slides for a talk on how to use generalized de bruijn indices to make de bruijn succ less ;)
05:14:10 <zzo38> You should be able to define map/return/join or return/(=<<) and then the others (including (>>=)) defined from that.
05:14:40 <edwardk> yes. i do this in comonad
05:14:54 <zzo38> Yes I know that.
05:15:03 <edwardk> well i don't bother defining the duals of (>>=) and (=<<) interrelatedly
05:15:24 <edwardk> making all 3 interconnected leads to a lot of excessive flipping
05:16:03 <edwardk> afk getting food
05:16:56 <zzo38> In Haskell you cannot always define these things interrelatedly but perhaps Ibtlfmm may allow it by specifying mahematical laws. And do you understand the reason why I wanted to define (=<<) instead of (>>=) for use with other categories? It is like a functor from the Kleisli category (but represented by the base category) to the base category.
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05:54:44 <edwardk> yes, i use the same justification for why extend is the way it is
05:55:28 <zzo38> OK
06:04:01 <elliott> I think #haskell are migrating here one by one.
06:04:38 <elliott> That would probably result in a decrease of the net understanding of Haskell of the channel.
06:04:49 <zzo38> elliott: Well, those that are discussing things other than ordinary programming, anyways.
06:05:34 <zzo38> Some people can go on both channels, at least sometimes. Or even on other channels as well.
06:06:09 <elliott> Other channels exist?
06:07:02 <elliott> edwardk: Did you ever get that revisions stuff working?
06:07:17 <edwardk> yes, modulo replay
06:07:41 <elliott> Neat. What's wrong with replay? (What's replay?)
06:07:50 <edwardk> i plan to ship a new version using the 'lca' package to deal with the online lca
06:07:57 <edwardk> and then i'll upload it to hackage
06:08:01 <edwardk> well
06:08:22 <edwardk> the actual version control operations are to define version controlled variables with a 3 way merge strategy, read/write from them, and fork, and join
06:08:39 <edwardk> but breaking the version control metaphor lets you add record :: Rev s a -> Rev s (a, Rev s a)
06:09:00 <edwardk> that gives you incremental as well as parallel computation and is the key to the ridiculous speedups you can get with this technique
06:09:09 <edwardk> that is the part that i haven't bothered to get working
06:09:46 <elliott> That sounds like it would be useful for all kinds of things that I will never realise it would be useful for when coding them.
06:10:04 <edwardk> i haven't been using the general purpose library for this that i have lately but instead have been using a special case set of combinators for dealing with unification problems
06:10:20 <edwardk> in particular i wanted to use it for type error slicing
06:10:31 <edwardk> but that requires a few awkward extensions to the way the merge strategy works
06:10:37 <edwardk> have you read daan's paper?
06:11:06 <edwardk> http://research.microsoft.com/apps/pubs/default.aspx?id=150180
06:11:11 <edwardk> really sells the performance win
06:11:21 <elliott> I haven't; I'll do so tomorrow.
06:11:29 * elliott has been coding more C++ than Haskell recently :(
06:11:42 <edwardk> well, this ports cleanly to c++ as well ;)
06:11:51 <zzo38> What is your opinions of automatic type classes (meaning the instances are defined automatically by a macro defined at the same time as the class, and you cannot create your own instances)?
06:11:58 <shachaf> "I'll read that paper tomorrow" is one of the worst repeated lies I've told. :-(
06:12:04 <edwardk> shachaf: =)
06:12:12 <elliott> edwardk: I don't attempt anything even vaguely elaborate in C++.
06:12:12 * shachaf has a big pile of papers to read "tomorrow".
06:12:24 <elliott> shachaf: Hey, I specifically mentally noted to check the log for the link!
06:12:27 <shachaf> elliott: What are you doing in C++?
06:12:27 <elliott> That counts for something.
06:12:54 <edwardk> zzo38: my opinion is that i'd rather just use ghc.generics and defaultsignatures and be able to override where its beneficial
06:13:25 <edwardk> elliott: load the file and look at figure 11
06:13:29 <elliott> shachaf: Patching a tattered codebase from 2005 that thinks it's C for the most part.
06:13:31 <edwardk> elliott: that should motivate it ;)
06:13:37 <shachaf> elliott: Which codebase?
06:13:39 <shachaf> Crawl?
06:13:44 <edwardk> 'parallel repeat' performance in particular
06:13:47 <elliott> shachaf: Yes.
06:13:50 <zzo38> edwardk: It doesn't do the things I was intending though; also, this way I propose allows Typeable to be defined in this way, and so on, too.
06:13:52 <shachaf> Crawl. :-(
06:14:24 <elliott> Wait, I think I have skimmed this paper on edwardk's behest before.
06:14:30 <edwardk> elliott: sounds like my personal hell
06:14:38 <elliott> That's a good figure.
06:14:42 <edwardk> elliott: thought i'd sent you there
06:14:53 <edwardk> those numbers are on 8 cores
06:15:01 <zzo38> In Haskell it would be: auto_instance :: ([Type] -> Q [Dec]) -> Q [Dec] and then you can use this as a TH quotation inside of a class definition
06:15:27 <elliott> shachaf: (Also it isn't actually Crawl, it's an abandoned, unbalanced pre-alpha version of Crawl before it got cleaned up.)
06:15:37 <elliott> edwardk: I don't even have that many cores :(
06:15:40 <shachaf> Why are you patching that version?
06:15:51 <shachaf> elliott: Did your computer come back to life?
06:16:23 <elliott> shachaf: monqy and no. (But that one doesn't have eight cores, either.)
06:16:48 <zzo38> (Even if it defines instances for everything, you still need to indicate the constraint if you are using something polymorphic, to use the methods of this automatic class.)
06:17:06 <shachaf> elliott: You gotta, like, finish playing Portal, man. :-(
06:17:43 <zzo38> (For example, you still need the Typeable constraint to be able to use typeOf and so on even though all types would have instances for Typeable.)
06:18:29 <elliott> shachaf: I'll finish playing Portal by... 2015 at the latest.
06:18:30 <elliott> Hold me to that.
06:18:46 <shachaf> elliott: Didn't we say something like a month?
06:18:55 <itidus21> it'll be 2015 sooner than later
06:19:13 <elliott> shachaf: I didn't agree to any such constraints!
06:19:18 <elliott> edwardk: What do you think of McBride's Frank?
06:19:29 <shachaf> elliott: :-(
06:19:42 <edwardk> i think i've largely given up on effect systems ;)
06:20:41 <edwardk> when you empower the language to automatically plumb effects around for you like that then all of a sudden a large number of previously equivalent programs are no longer equivalent. you are giving up information about internal workings, this means a lot of canonical combinators cease to be canonical
06:20:47 <elliott> I quite like them. What don't you like about them? The objection I'm familiar with is the standard "you can distinguish 'equivalent' actions in interpreters", but I don't really see that as a huge problem.
06:20:57 <elliott> Right, so it is the same.
06:21:11 <edwardk> so while map and mapM don't need to be defined separately, you often wind up having to define multiple directional traversals to push the effects around
06:21:21 <elliott> Ah, I see what you mean.
06:21:24 <elliott> Right.
06:21:30 <edwardk> and you close the door to lots of optimizations
06:21:39 <elliott> I don't think it is strictly worse than what you have to do to define control structures in a strict language with explicit thunking?
06:21:46 <edwardk> when i code in a monadic style i'm at least explicit about what effects need to be serialized with regards to one another
06:21:58 <edwardk> and i don't introduce completely artificial sequencing barriers
06:22:23 <edwardk> working in a strict language with explicit thunking is just flipping terrible
06:22:51 <elliott> edwardk: I don't like explicit thunking. But I do quite like being explicit about effectful computation vs. result. So... I'm inconsistent.
06:23:14 <edwardk> well, my main data points are scala and haskell here
06:23:20 <edwardk> haskell is a dream to work with, scala is a nightmare
06:23:30 <edwardk> a part of why scala is a nightmare is because of the strict defaults
06:23:37 <edwardk> which make scala monads a damn joke
06:24:37 <elliott> Well, Scala is a nightmare in general. I was of the "total language and decide what evaluation order is later since it doesn't affect semantics" school before it came in vogue, but then Conor went and ruined it by getting it to the top of /r/haskell. :/
06:24:46 <edwardk> in scala if i program with a monad i'm choosing to either a.) blow the stack on any non-trivial example because flatMap can't be a 'self-tail-call' and hence isn't subject to their limited form of tail call optimization or b.) run VERY slowly, because i've operationally transformed the monad using an explicit trampoline
06:24:49 <elliott> (But then you end up with a notion of a thunk again if you introduce effects.)
06:25:14 <elliott> By "no worse than", I just meant that the number of combinators you have to write is no more than would be required in a strict langauge with explicit thunking.
06:25:15 <shachaf> edwardk: What did you think about monad-embed?
06:25:19 <elliott> Because that's essentially the distinction you're getting.
06:25:19 <edwardk> in a strict language with real tail call optimization, its a harder call, and you can get that in scheme.
06:25:49 <edwardk> shachaf: is that the scala abuse of delimited continuations to fake monads?
06:26:02 <shachaf> No, it's a language.
06:26:04 <shachaf> @where monad-embed
06:26:05 <lambdabot> http://timmaxwell.org/pages/monad-embed/
06:26:21 <edwardk> never saw it before
06:26:47 <edwardk> it looks a lot like andrej bauer's toy
06:26:58 <edwardk> same objections to it as i have to eff/frank
06:27:20 <edwardk> given the choice i'd probably go with mcbride's version since its the most principled of the 3
06:28:00 <edwardk> ddc is fine if the only effects you want to play with are boring crap involving scribbling to regions. if you need to talk about other effects its useless
06:28:12 <elliott> DDC is really complicated.
06:28:13 <edwardk> eff was invented to solve a non-problem
06:28:15 <elliott> The effect system stuff.
06:28:18 <edwardk> yes
06:28:23 <elliott> I don't understand it. :(
06:28:26 <elliott> I like Eff though.
06:29:01 <edwardk> well, andrej wrote it because he claimed you couldn't solve certain things in haskell with monads
06:29:22 <edwardk> and i showed him 4 years ago that he was wrong, whereupon he promptly forgot that fact and went and wrote it anyways ;)
06:29:50 <elliott> haha
06:30:07 <edwardk> after he wrote up something recently i posted a rebuttal of sorts on my blog ;)
06:30:21 <edwardk> http://comonad.com/reader/2011/searching-infinity/
06:30:25 <elliott> I dislike monad transformers strongly enough that the downsides of effect systems seem minor in comparison, honestly.
06:30:31 <elliott> Oh, I think I read that.
06:30:41 <shachaf> elliott: Since when do you dislike monad transformers?
06:30:52 <edwardk> the problem is that you run into the same problems you get with monad coproducts
06:31:07 <edwardk> yes, i can define the coproduct of two monads, its just useless
06:31:28 <edwardk> i can define the coproduct of two effect systems, but its just as useless
06:31:45 <edwardk> did you see the traffic on reddit today about monad coproducts?
06:31:59 <edwardk> i gave a long enumeration of things that can't be done with monad coproducts
06:32:01 <elliott> I think Frank's effect system should suffice for a large variety of uses of monad transformers, really, although of course they can't do everything.
06:32:15 <elliott> edwardk: Yes. But I try to ignore tailcalled.
06:32:16 <edwardk> all of these problems hold when you try to sprinkle arbitrary effects into an effect system
06:32:24 <elliott> Right.
06:33:00 <elliott> I still think the reduced power may be less annoying than monad transformers. But of course I've never actually tried to write a proper program in Frank.
06:33:07 <edwardk> i don't
06:33:10 <edwardk> i can't use them
06:33:13 <edwardk> i mean i've tried
06:33:19 <zzo38> I don't dislike transformers, but I also consider the transformers in a mathematical way
06:33:31 <edwardk> the -only- effects you can compose are reader/writer/state
06:33:55 <edwardk> all uses of non-determinism, local, pass, listen, callCC, etc. break this system
06:34:23 <elliott> RWST IO *is* approximately 90% of Haskell transformer stacks. But yes, it's hardly ideal. :/
06:34:27 <elliott> Can you invent something perfect instead?
06:34:36 <edwardk> and notice half of those operations were in reader/writer ;) so you lost half the effects you had in there
06:34:36 <edwardk> no
06:34:38 <edwardk> it doesn't exist
06:34:44 <zzo38> And I do not mean only effect composition; I mean the monad transformers in general, and other transformers too.
06:34:51 <elliott> Maybe you just didn't look hard enough!
06:35:17 <edwardk> i place the burden of the existence proof on you =P
06:35:38 <elliott> :(
06:35:40 <edwardk> i've done my due diligence here, and besides smarter people than me agree it can't exist
06:35:56 <zzo38> What I mean by that is a homomorphism of those kind of things to a new one made up from that, so in other words if M is a monad and T is a monad transformer then so is (T M) and then a forward transformer homomorphism from M to (T M) while backward transformer homomorphism in other direction.
06:36:13 <edwardk> ghani and luth, ghani and uustalu, kelly's paper on layered finitary monads, etc.
06:36:18 <elliott> edwardk: I'm just going to stick to C++.
06:36:25 <elliott> Like deciding to be homeless because you can't have a mansion.
06:36:29 <edwardk> hahaha
06:36:41 <shachaf> C++ is certainly a home!
06:36:44 <zzo38> I program in many programming languages, including C and Haskell.
06:36:48 <shachaf> It's a maze of twisty little passages, all different.
06:37:11 <elliott> Every time I think "this code could really use some more classes" a little bit of me dies.
06:37:43 <edwardk> well, monad transformers are stronger than the coproduct of the base monad and the State, etc monad they are transforming it with, which is the key insight into why they are better than coproducts
06:38:45 <elliott> Well, I know you can't compose monads perfectly independently.
06:38:47 <zzo38> To make a sum of two monads, does it have to be on a sum of two categories that those two monads are on?
06:38:52 <elliott> But transformers are so arbitrary. :(
06:38:54 <zzo38> And same with products too
06:39:01 <elliott> I'll let shachaf complain about transformers instead, he is better at it.
06:39:13 <edwardk> elliott: transformers each individually arise for very very different reasons
06:39:20 <edwardk> elliott: and each one is fundamental in its own way
06:39:27 <zzo38> How are transformers so arbitrary?
06:40:10 <elliott> zzo38: Good question! shachaf can answer it.
06:40:11 <edwardk> ReaderT works because (->) can distribute out over anything, WriterT because every functor is strong, state works because you can sandwich a monad inside an adjunction
06:40:23 <edwardk> cont works because (-> r) is self adjoint
06:40:41 <zzo38> edwardk: OK
06:40:44 <edwardk> there isn't a consistent way in which these things are the same
06:40:46 <itidus21> http://static.quickmeme.com/media/social/qm.gif
06:40:55 <zzo38> shachaf: Do you know how transformers so arbitrary?
06:40:55 <edwardk> except for the fact that they transform a simpler monad into a more complex one
06:40:57 <elliott> thank itidus21
06:41:02 <shachaf> zzo38: Ask elliott.
06:41:03 <itidus21> that didn't go well
06:41:04 <elliott> *s
06:41:08 <elliott> zzo38: Ask shachaf.
06:41:13 <zzo38> edwardk: How do you mean? Isn't it a kind of monad laws, transformer laws, homomorphism, etc?
06:41:15 <itidus21> bastards
06:41:17 <shachaf> zzo38: elliott brought it up, not me.
06:41:19 <edwardk> if you start working with coproducts you _immediately_ quotient out the ability to allow them to interact
06:41:35 <elliott> edwardk: Anyway, both you and McBride sound so convincing.
06:41:36 <zzo38> edwardk: Yes I can see that
06:41:41 <edwardk> zzo38: no, they aren't just two monad homomorphisms in from their constituent parts
06:41:51 <elliott> So I'm going to go with McBride, because I'd prefer him to be right.
06:41:54 <elliott> Take that!
06:42:17 <edwardk> like i said, his is the best of a bad bunch ;)
06:42:26 <zzo38> edwardk: Yes there is something more too see what I have written above, is that it? Is it somewhat difference?
06:42:37 <itidus21> http://i.qkme.me/3on7zh.jpg
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06:42:58 <elliott> itidus21: Did you just search "RWST IO meme" or something?
06:43:06 <elliott> I'm upset that image exists. :(
06:43:23 <shachaf> That doesn't even kind-check.
06:43:30 <itidus21> i found the meme by accident!
06:44:12 <zzo38> Yes you are right it doesn't even kind-check.
06:44:16 <edwardk> zzo38: consider a monad coproduct defined by two monad homomorphisms, this isn't sufficient to give you what monad transformers give you, because it has to work symmetrically between the two monads. this means that there is quite literally no way for the coproduct of state and error to let you get the semantics of either of StateT s (Either e) or ErrorT e (State s), since the state effects backtrack or not depending on the layering y
06:44:16 <edwardk> choose
06:44:58 <zzo38> edwardk: I didn't say a transformer is a coproduct though, or vice-versa
06:45:12 <zzo38> But I do believe what you wrote
06:45:18 <elliott> Ah, edwardk is talking to zzo38. I am free. Goodbye!
06:45:24 <edwardk> elliott: =P
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06:46:10 <edwardk> itidus21: you probably also want to cps that so you can use speculation ;)
06:46:48 <zzo38> I have thought and figured out to make a monad on a category which is a sum of two categories from monads on each one, and the same things with products too
06:47:33 <zzo38> But this is dealing with different categories not the same one (although you can have the sum or product of a category with itself)
06:51:19 <zzo38> Therefore I do not understand why you are relating transformers with coproducts.
06:53:39 <edwardk> zzo38: http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/vuty0/what_is_the_advantage_of_monad_transformers_over/
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06:59:37 <zzo38> OK
07:25:46 -!- ais523 has quit.
07:29:51 <zzo38> Do you like Famicom-MIDI?
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08:58:22 <ais523> huh, a spammer has apparently sent me $1.6 million via DHL because of my bad experiences with FedEx
08:58:27 <ais523> and is asking for contact details
08:58:53 <shachaf> I like to contact people through their credit card numbers.
08:59:11 <ais523> (have you seen the theory that scammers deliberately make scams full of warning signs for people who know anything about them, to ensure that the only people who respond are idiots, who have a higher conversion rate than people who know about scams?)
08:59:53 <ais523> 1. YOUR FULL NAME 2. YOUR HOME ADDRESS.OR OFFICE ADDRESS 3. YOUR CURRENT HOME TELEPHONE NUMBER .4. YOUR CURRENT OFFICE TELEPHONE .5. A COPY OF YOUR PICTURE, FOR WELL IDENTIFICATION.
08:59:57 <ais523> that's what they wanted
09:00:07 <ais523> oh, Konversation screwed up the spaces again
09:00:08 <shachaf> ais523: Yep. That's a pleasing theory.
09:00:19 <ais523> I'm not sure whether to believe it or not
09:00:25 <shachaf> I like it whether or not it's true.
09:00:36 <ais523> I also like the theory that half the scams you get are from scam /victims/ who've been scammed with "make money fast via internet scamming" schemes
09:00:55 <ais523> and thus are only designed to fool their perpetrators
09:01:41 <shachaf> A pyramid scam.
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10:42:09 -!- oerjan has set topic: Individuals guilty of ruining this channel: coppro, edwardk, itidus21 (ex officio), dbelange, oerjan | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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12:19:20 <oerjan> > 17*17
12:19:22 <lambdabot> 289
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13:13:55 <fizzie> Hello from Belgland. (Is this what this place is called?)
13:14:06 <fizzie> They have all the keys in completely wrong order, at least.
13:25:42 -!- Taneb has joined.
13:25:45 <Taneb> Hello
13:26:27 <boily> good morning!
13:26:51 <Taneb> @time boily
13:26:52 <lambdabot> Local time for boily is Mon Jul 2 09:26:51 2012
13:27:05 <Taneb> GMT - 5?
13:27:12 <Taneb> GMT - 4
13:28:49 <fizzie> @time fizzie
13:28:53 <lambdabot> Local time for fizzie is Mon Jul 2 16:28:50 2012
13:28:56 <fizzie> lambdabot: U worng.
13:34:25 <boily> -4 right now because of EST.
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15:07:45 <Taneb> boily, east coast US?
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15:29:23 <boily> Taneb: east coast canada.
15:29:31 <Taneb> :)
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15:55:53 <Phantom_Hoover> !sanetemp 180
15:55:55 <EgoBot> 82.2
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16:05:16 <boily> !insanetemp 1000
16:05:17 <EgoBot> 1832.0
16:11:49 <Phantom_Hoover> sanetemp is Fahrenheit -> Celsius, insanetemp is the other way.
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16:17:57 <Gregor> Ohhhhhhhhh, I thought it was for temporary values of some kind. I was really confused.
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17:18:44 <ion> It’s a brilliant idea to have locale settings affect how your code parses. https://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=18556
17:20:01 <Gregor> lol
17:20:04 <Gregor> Oh, PHP
17:23:39 <coppro> oh god
17:24:18 <ion> “class_exists() function uses zend_str_tolower(). zend_str_tolower() uses zend_tolower(). zend_tolower() uses _tolower_l() on Windows and tolower() on other oses. _tolower_l() is not locale aware. tolower() is LC_CTYPE aware.”
17:25:50 <Lumpio-> Why do people still keep using that V:
17:26:12 <Gregor> In PHP, it used to be that 0x0+1 == 2. They fixed that, but now 0b0+1 == 2. YAY
17:26:41 <Gregor> And 0b0+10 == 12
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17:27:35 <coppro> Gregor: what.
17:27:44 <itidus21> information overload: 11 items on my Windows(tm) taskbar, 23 tabs in my firefox browser, 4 channels in irc. noone to blame but myself
17:28:09 <Gregor> coppro: PHP logic 8-D
17:28:23 <coppro> Gregor: is this on lolphp?
17:28:36 <Gregor> I know the 0x0 was.
17:28:58 <Gregor> http://www.reddit.com/r/lolphp/comments/ps6x5/0x0_wat/
17:29:21 <itidus21> 74 icons on my desktop
17:29:32 <Vorpal> <Gregor> In PHP, it used to be that 0x0+1 == 2. They fixed that, but now 0b0+1 == 2. YAY <--- how... did those happen?
17:29:38 <Vorpal> what did they interpret 0x0 as?
17:30:01 <Gregor> Vorpal: See http://www.reddit.com/r/lolphp/comments/ps6x5/0x0_wat/
17:30:52 <Vorpal> ouch
17:32:28 <Vorpal> why does it skip the leading zeros, it doesn't hurt to interpret those...
17:33:16 <Vorpal> also yeah strtol handles 0x already
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17:39:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, 'optimisation'.
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17:40:12 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, which of course makes no sense
17:40:38 <Phantom_Hoover> No you see strtol probably handles those initial zeroes inefficiently.
17:44:12 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, if you profiled and found that to be the case the right answer to that is writing your own strtol then
17:44:20 <Vorpal> it is not terribly complex to implement strtol
17:44:30 <Vorpal> I did it when I needed a different overflow behaviour
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17:51:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, you do not need to explain to me why it's stupid.
17:59:29 <Sgeo> "list all of your computer skills (software,
17:59:29 <Sgeo> hardware, operating systems, programming and other skills here)"
17:59:45 <Sgeo> ^^ career development center person
17:59:56 <Sgeo> That's..... uh.... what....
18:00:24 <Sgeo> There's no way that that's literal, is there?
18:00:36 <Sgeo> Is anyone really interested in the fact that I know how to use XChat?
18:00:52 <Sgeo> Or Chrome?
18:00:59 <Sgeo> Yay! I know how to use a web browser
18:01:13 <Sgeo> She took the liberty of adding Windows XP as a skill.
18:01:16 <edwardk> sgeo: i hope they have a lot of paper
18:01:49 <edwardk> my rule of thumb is if one of those forms is involved i probably am not interested in the kinds of positions they can supply ;)
18:02:34 <Sgeo> Well, this isn't towards any particular position, just helping me write a resume
18:02:48 <edwardk> i'm sure my innate understanding of the inner workings of the 6502 will be critical to my future success.
18:03:11 <edwardk> coming out of college?
18:03:26 <Sgeo> Well, still in college, want to get an internship while in college
18:03:33 <edwardk> fair nuff
18:04:17 <Phantom_Hoover> I hate to ask, but are you still at Farmingdale?
18:04:28 <Sgeo> Yes
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18:15:55 <Gregor> Spam subject: "Gangbang tube full of desire"
18:15:56 <Gregor> D-8
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18:24:07 <Sgeo> http://www.resumagic.com/computer_skills1.html
18:24:08 <Sgeo> What.
18:24:18 <Sgeo> A hardware section?
18:24:45 <Sgeo> I.... have the vague idea that I'm typing on a Toshiba computer right now
18:24:50 <Sgeo> I'm not really a hardware person
18:32:14 <itidus21> 6502 is great for making computer games
18:34:20 <itidus21> oh, wikipedia says bender on futurama has a 6502 brain
18:35:52 * itidus21 scuffles away back to his lab.
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18:53:00 <elliott> @tell oerjan If AlainD keeps doing it, let me know and I'll do something about it.
18:53:01 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
18:53:58 <elliott> nooo
18:54:06 <elliott> maharba corrected the misspelling of "accumlator" in the python interpreter
18:54:07 <elliott> r.i.p.
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19:33:17 <Phantom_Hoover> the end of an era
19:37:39 <itidus21> my brain has too many gotos
19:39:02 <olsner> spaghettibrain
19:39:54 * olsner opens itidus21's skull and takes a spoonful of spaghettibrain bolognese
19:40:04 <itidus21> you... might not want to do that
19:40:14 <olsner> you might not want me to do that
19:40:35 <itidus21> you haven't seen my desktop
19:40:47 <olsner> I might not want to do that
19:41:32 <itidus21> i think maybe the way i think is just a reflection of the chaotic nature of the world
19:42:31 <olsner> a reflection of the leftovers I left in there
19:43:07 <olsner> I wonder what happened to the stuff I ate though
19:43:29 <itidus21> basically, i am producing content but i'm not organizing it
19:44:09 <itidus21> and i don't want to burden anyone else with that either
19:44:51 <itidus21> where i am really going wrong is i don't actually take the time to study what i am doing
19:45:08 <olsner> watch a chilean monkey (ape?) speak about getting organized: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zUbyL6yez4
19:47:14 <olsner> his son speaks a bit later
19:47:45 <itidus21> but i also realize that it's entirely natural that observing or studying something leads to other things to observe or study.. and there is no real end to that
19:48:44 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:49:13 <elliott> hi oerjan
19:49:16 <oerjan> hi elliott
19:49:17 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
19:49:21 <oerjan> @messages
19:49:22 <lambdabot> elliott said 56m 22s ago: If AlainD keeps doing it, let me know and I'll do something about it.
19:50:15 <oerjan> <elliott> maharba corrected the misspelling of "accumlator" in the python interpreter <-- SACRILEGE
19:50:34 <oerjan> i haven't even dared to fix the java one
19:51:46 <olsner> it was misspelled by design and is now completely broken?
19:52:38 -!- ogrom has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
19:52:40 <oerjan> ...i assume maharba's fix didn't change the semantics, i haven't looked at it yet.
19:52:59 <itidus21> organizing items into categories is a recursive process of generating new categories until there is no longer a miscellaneous category
19:53:41 <olsner> I think you should stop when the miscellaneous category is small enough, because it will never be eliminated
19:54:17 <itidus21> there is a finite set of items (in scope)
19:54:30 <itidus21> but admittedly new items can arrive any time
19:54:42 <olsner> although finite, the set can be very large
19:56:23 <itidus21> but it's really ugly... no library ever has a miscellaneous section
19:56:45 <itidus21> maybe this is because the authors categorize their books in advance
19:57:37 <itidus21> someone should troll the libraries by writing an uncategorizable book
19:57:42 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: going to bed).
19:59:20 -!- edwardk has joined.
19:59:21 <zzo38> There is tensor category, and then perhaps you can make tensor diagram from that. But I suppose the lines are not allowed to cross unless it is commutative.
20:00:01 <olsner> was that a response to the idea about an uncategorizable book?
20:00:11 <zzo38> No
20:00:20 <itidus21> i'm not thinking of mathematical categories really, but just layman categories
20:00:23 <zzo38> I did not even read what was written above
20:01:21 <olsner> itidus21: I think they'll just add a new category for uncategorizable books and put your book in that category
20:02:24 <Phantom_Hoover> https://github.com/net-alper/php-src/commit/0515360e9a8dcc86facb38cddeebe759e87dca52
20:02:31 <Phantom_Hoover> oh my god this is the best patch ever
20:03:13 <olsner> yes, it follows the spirit and style of the surrounding code perfectly
20:03:54 <zzo38> Are any of the numbers for categorizing books not yet used? If so, then use those numbers.
20:04:38 <itidus21> zzo38: the system is kind of extensible really :D
20:05:17 <olsner> or they could just put the book in fiction since you made it all up to make it "uncategorizable"
20:06:18 <itidus21> anyway if you saw the kind of text files on my desktop you would understand why these things worry me
20:08:29 <olsner> you have some kind of illness involving text files?
20:11:33 <itidus21> heres an example of a file on my desktop http://pastebin.com/uXe6Jbi1
20:11:53 <itidus21> i wouldn't recommend reading it, but a quick glance will get the point across
20:12:20 <olsner> glossolalia?
20:15:19 <olsner> I think there's another word for written glossolalia, and doing it a non-religious context, though
20:16:28 <itidus21> one problem with that file is it requires context to make any sense
20:17:28 <olsner> hmm, ok, I don't have any context so it makes no sense
20:18:36 <itidus21> what the first part is saying is that there is a 12x12 bitmap using the alphabet {-,0} with rows and columns addressed by a letter followed by a number
20:19:13 <itidus21> and then it goes on to show the 4x4 bitmaps found at various addresses
20:20:02 <olsner> found at various addresses? so you're reverse-engineering something?
20:20:06 <zzo38> Does any ephemeris data include camera angles?
20:20:17 <itidus21> well addressing as in a chessboard
20:21:23 <itidus21> then it tries to do the same thing with another 12x12 bitmap, trying to use this system to represent tetris pieces via addresses
20:23:08 <itidus21> then it goes on to a 4x4 bitmap, with 9 addresses from a1 to c3 and at each address determining the 2x2 sub bitmap
20:23:58 <itidus21> then tries to use these subbitmaps as tiles in a 3x3 grid
20:25:17 <itidus21> then some waffling about using xml to represent operations on bitmap, as well as a random list of urls so that i can close the browser tabs
20:25:35 <olsner> why would you close those tabs?
20:29:01 <itidus21> lack of interest, or trying to focus on something else
20:29:22 <itidus21> also to try to free resources
20:29:40 <zzo38> How can I download an ephemeris with camera angles of camera satellites included?
20:33:11 <itidus21> next is a few random thoughts about video games, followed by an analysis of something called WarioWare D.I.Y. which is a nintendo game about making games which last about 8 seconds
20:34:28 <itidus21> so the last part i suppose is infact a reverse engineering
20:36:02 <olsner> I read a bit in the beginning and a bit in the end, scrolling past the rest of it very quickly
20:36:23 <olsner> so I found some bitmaps, some youtube links, and what looked like it could be some reverse engineering notes
20:36:31 <itidus21> lol lol
20:36:38 <itidus21> so infact they are all unrelated
20:36:57 <olsner> and yet they are in the same text file
20:37:04 <itidus21> yup
20:37:16 <olsner> I guess it's called New new New text file.txt or something like that?
20:37:23 <itidus21> 123.txt
20:37:36 <oerjan> i tried to see if the "scratch" file on my desktop was similar, but it seems to contain only the design for my deadfish in itflabtijtslwi
20:37:44 <olsner> do you have 122 previous text files that became full?
20:38:04 <itidus21> each one is a vain attempt at something substantial..
20:38:40 <itidus21> theres 1234.txt stuff.txt stuff2.txt gaming.txt Document.rtf
20:38:55 <itidus21> another hopeful document.rtf
20:39:09 <itidus21> cool thoughts.rtf
20:39:49 <itidus21> New OpenDocument Text (2).odt, New OpenDocument Text.odt, Games.odt
20:40:13 <itidus21> etc
20:40:16 <olsner> I found /code/scratch/BaconCongdon758.txt
20:40:25 <olsner> it has tips on finding a good dentist, I think
20:41:13 <olsner> and here's a copy of an e-mail with 11469 > characters from excessive quoting of the entire previous thread
20:41:56 <olsner> (out of 837 lines ... but some of those came from line-wrapping the series of initial >s)
20:42:15 <itidus21> i even made a folder called Desk and copied my desktop into it mostly.. but that didn't stop it happening again
20:42:49 -!- ion has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
20:54:08 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving).
20:54:18 -!- elliott has joined.
20:56:59 * oerjan checks spelling and realizes alaind is probably not alan dipert
20:57:30 <elliott> alain diperrier
20:57:37 <olsner> otoh, if his actual name is alain dipert that might explain why alan dipert is sometimes so hard to find
20:57:49 <oerjan> olsner: ooh
20:58:10 <oerjan> elliott: wait, are you revealing secret wiki database stuff again
20:58:19 <olsner> double up if it's actually alain diperrier
20:58:31 <elliott> oerjan: no.
20:58:37 <oerjan> okay
20:58:42 <elliott> oerjan: i am irresponsible, not negligent.
20:59:05 <elliott> oerjan: however, note that, IIRC, realnames are public in mediawiki.
20:59:05 <oerjan> i... may not be entirely sure of the difference.
20:59:18 <elliott> one sounds worse than the other
20:59:20 <oerjan> oh they are?
20:59:24 <elliott> i believe so
20:59:28 <olsner> which one sounds worse?
20:59:29 <oerjan> elliott: which one?
20:59:32 <elliott> negligent
20:59:41 <oerjan> but that's so negligible
20:59:43 <elliott> at least to me.
20:59:46 <olsner> I think irresponsible sounds worse, it sounds more intentional
21:00:04 <olsner> negligent sounds like forgetful
21:00:51 <elliott> oh, shut up.
21:01:03 <oerjan> elliott: i don't know how to find realnames...
21:01:06 <olsner> elliott is about to become one of those english people who go out in the world and discover that their words mean completely different things out there
21:01:50 <elliott> oerjan: me too
21:02:06 <olsner> neither?
21:03:00 <oerjan> "Real name is optional. If you choose to provide it, this will be used for giving you attribution for your work."
21:03:47 <oerjan> so presumably there's some way to make attributions...
21:09:05 -!- itidus20 has joined.
21:09:34 <oerjan> it's decrementing!
21:10:44 <elliott> what
21:10:51 <oerjan> the itidus
21:11:27 <zzo38> Is there any relation between tensor categories and Penrose tensor diagrams?
21:13:07 -!- itidus21 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:13:26 * itidus20 ++
21:13:32 -!- itidus20 has changed nick to itidus21.
21:59:07 <boily> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!
21:59:26 <boily> wikipedia's down!
21:59:45 <oerjan> yeah that's what i'd say if i was boiling too
22:00:49 <boily> I always forget the fact that my family name sounds like boiling in English...
22:01:35 <boily> I'd probably be aaaaaahing too if I were boiled alive.
22:01:51 <oerjan> just change your nick to bwalee and we'll stop being confused
22:02:07 -!- boily has changed nick to bwalee-not-confu.
22:02:34 -!- bwalee-not-confu has changed nick to unconfused-bwale.
22:02:45 -!- unconfused-bwale has changed nick to unconf`d-bwalee.
22:02:48 <unconf`d-bwalee> there.
22:03:00 <oerjan> EXCELLENT
22:04:37 <itidus21> so it's "oi" as in "au revoir"
22:04:38 <elliott> the perfect nick
22:06:47 <oerjan> oh ruvwar
22:12:24 -!- ion has joined.
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22:13:40 -!- SimonRC has joined.
22:15:29 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
22:28:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh wow.
22:28:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Apparently OpenOffice used to (as in 2011-and-possibly-still) delete all backup files when it crashed.
22:30:03 <elliott> nice
22:32:21 <oerjan> how convenient
22:32:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Also found this gem: "In my experience, quality goes something like:
22:32:57 <Phantom_Hoover> (worst) commercial <<<< open source < (most) commercial << open source (best)"
22:33:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh
22:33:03 <Phantom_Hoover> wait
22:33:04 <Phantom_Hoover> dammit
22:33:14 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought that last one said commercial (best).
22:33:26 <coppro> No, I agree
22:33:32 <Phantom_Hoover> MAYBE I SHOULD READ THINGS FIRST
22:33:35 <coppro> The best OSS stuff beats the commercial stuf
22:33:42 <coppro> but only the best
22:33:46 <coppro> OOo is far from the best
22:33:49 <coppro> (or LO or whatever)
22:34:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, I just thought they were lumping all open-source stuff together whilst fractionating commercial software by quality.
22:34:37 <zzo38> Yes, actually I do think "proprietary < open-source < proprietary < open-source" does describe how good the software is. I have not thought of that before but it does look correct to me.
22:35:34 <zzo38> What document numbering system should I use, such as "I.2.iii" or "1.2.3" or etc?
22:36:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Roman numerals, then Arabic, then lowercase Roman, then Greek, then Hebrew (ask shachaf).
22:37:53 <zzo38> I only need three levels.
22:38:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Roman, Greek, Hebrew.
22:38:22 <zzo38> And it needs to work with TeX.
22:38:22 <Phantom_Hoover> For that authentic old-world feel.
22:38:32 -!- copumpkin has joined.
22:38:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Does TeX not have the capacity to display the Greek alphabet.
22:38:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Because I thought that was quite a big deal.
22:39:09 <itidus21> Phantom_Hoover: not after the euro scandal
22:39:40 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: Hmm?
22:39:45 <zzo38> It can display math Greek alphabet.
22:39:57 <zzo38> But it doesn't have the ordering built-in
22:40:13 <zzo38> With the proper fonts you can display anything but I don't want to have to add fonts
22:40:39 <Phantom_Hoover> shachaf, didn't you say it's one of those sum-numeric-values-of-letters systems except you're not allowed to spell out any of the names of God.
22:40:45 <itidus21> are fonts monochrome?
22:41:12 <zzo38> itidus21: Yes, but even if it isn't, the printer may be monochrome anyways
22:41:22 <itidus21> one chrome to rule them all
22:41:52 <zzo38> I am starting to make the document for ITMCK.
22:43:43 <itidus21> the printer _should_ do subpixel dithering, in a perfect world >:-)
22:58:08 <zzo38> The fonts are stored as METAFONT programs which will output a metric file, and then when you tell it what printer you use can output the font raster for that printer as well.
22:59:18 <zzo38> How does a printer going to do subpixel dithering?
22:59:28 <itidus21> basically i think it would be fun to make a font based on NES tilesets
23:00:25 <itidus21> but then again, i am rambling nonsense
23:00:46 <ion> Printers have subpixels?
23:01:22 <zzo38> I did once write a program to make a METAFONT file from 8x8 monochrome character bitmaps; it could then be included from a METAFONT program that uses that data to apply effects and ship out.
23:11:05 <itidus21> ion: well, i don't know the correct terms to explain what i have in mind
23:12:14 <itidus21> if i have a 4 color image, and if it is to be printed in black and white, it needs to be dithered at some stage
23:12:18 <oerjan> just use nanobots to print
23:12:22 <itidus21> i guess its silly to demand the printer to do that
23:12:39 <itidus21> maybe the font should be dithered!
23:13:20 <itidus21> ya.. now i'm getting somewhere
23:13:21 -!- monqy has joined.
23:13:30 <zzo38> Well, it would be possible to program METAFONT to perform dithering although it cannot be subpixels
23:13:40 <itidus21> dithered fonts
23:13:54 <monqy> @messages?
23:13:54 <lambdabot> monqy: You have 7 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
23:14:34 <shachaf> @ask monqy hi monqy, we missed you
23:14:34 <ion> itidus21: Isn’t that kind of dithering typical?
23:14:35 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
23:14:41 <oerjan> elliott: MONQY DETECTED
23:14:43 <itidus21> can you name a dithered font?
23:15:04 <itidus21> i dunno when it happens. maybe it's part of the vector rendering
23:15:56 <itidus21> well there is ░▒▓
23:16:14 <oerjan> hither and dither
23:16:25 <elliott> monqy: hi
23:16:28 <itidus21> ░▒▓█
23:16:30 <zzo38> Those belong to CP437 (and to Unicode)
23:16:38 <shachaf> monqy Are you going to the conference in San Diego?
23:16:43 <zzo38> They are often used in ZZT and MegaZeux games
23:19:27 -!- edwardk has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
23:21:34 <itidus21> zzo38: but suppose you are using graphics mode, and font resolution isn't a scarce resource... 1920 / 256 = 7.5; 1080 / 224 = 4.8; so you can get away with 7.5x4.8 black and white pixels per NES pixel (allowing for stretching)
23:22:29 <zzo38> You could convert the file into the format that METAFONT (or TeX) can read and then write the program to make it to print out.
23:22:36 <itidus21> but my eyes tend to percieve movement with some effects like that. really awkward
23:22:44 <zzo38> I have written a program in TeX to print ASCII PBM pictures on a document.
23:23:58 <zzo38> What is the postal address to send a note if you lost a copy of GNU GPL?
23:29:38 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
2012-07-03
00:02:49 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:11:47 <itidus21> this depicts what i have described http://oi46.tinypic.com/2rz989c.jpg (proof i have too much free time)
00:12:59 <quintopia> :\
00:13:36 <itidus21> the intention is that i could make a NES tile font using methods similar to that
00:16:23 <itidus21> could being the keyword, perhaps a better word is won't
00:22:43 -!- zzo38 has joined.
00:34:16 <zzo38> Can a Penrose diagrammatic tensor notation be used with some restrictions with a tensor category? Use different lines for different objects, and different restriction depending on the category such as no crossing lines unless it is a commutative tensor category.
00:43:42 <zzo38> There may be other restrictions too to ensure it is unambiguous.
00:52:03 <zzo38> What is it called when an initial object of a category C is final in a Kleisli category of a monad M on C?
00:53:11 -!- Patashu[Zzz] has changed nick to Patashu.
00:54:19 <zzo38> In Haskell, the Maybe and [] and Finalize monad have this property.
00:55:02 <shachaf> What's Finalize?
00:55:10 <copumpkin> zzo38: how do you mean initial -> final?
00:55:37 <copumpkin> oh, I sort of see it here
00:55:49 <zzo38> Finalize monad is the monad of the endofunctor that all objects go to the final object. In Haskell it would be: data Finalize x = Finalize;
00:56:00 <copumpkin> most people call it Const
00:56:02 <shachaf> Oh, my favourite monad.
00:56:06 <shachaf> I always called it Null. :-(
00:56:37 <zzo38> There is also the Initialize comonad which is the comonad of the endofunctor that all objects go to the initial object. In Haskell it is: data Initialize x;
00:56:38 <shachaf> sorear once said that Identity would be the initial object and Null would be the terminal object in a category of monads.
00:56:41 <shachaf> Or something like that.
00:57:10 <zzo38> copumpkin: What do you mean, "how do you mean initial -> final"? I just mean initial and final objects in a category.
01:01:30 <zzo38> Are they the same ones which the "right zero law" of the MonadPlus class applies?
01:03:44 <zzo38> I think it means (Kleisli Maybe) category includes zero-morphism which are (Kleisli $ const Nothing)
01:08:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Ooh, Charles Stross AMA.
01:13:41 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: What is that?
01:14:02 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA
01:20:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Eew, he likes Heinlein. Maybe Heinlein isn't as bad as literally everything about him suggests,
01:20:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:28:08 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
02:14:04 <itidus21> i get the impression the web was in use in 1989
02:15:19 <elliott> what
02:16:37 <itidus21> well theres patents which were filed in 1989 which have urls.. oh it's a re-examination maybe
02:17:16 <itidus21> ok reexamination certificates
02:17:24 <itidus21> have urls on tehm... confused me
02:23:00 <itidus21> elliott: what i'm really trying to figure out is, is it legal to structure data as <foo bar="foobar">foobar</foo>, <foo bar="foobar"/>
02:23:59 <itidus21> it seems to me that it should be.
02:24:37 <elliott> i
02:24:39 <elliott> don't understand
02:24:51 <itidus21> lol
02:24:58 <itidus21> hmm
02:26:22 <itidus21> if i wanted to add structure to my post i might say, <nick>itidus21</nick><post colour="default">lol</post>
02:28:26 <itidus21> i would feel wronged if i wasn't allowed to do that legally
02:33:58 <itidus21> my abstract conception of markup tags is probably not a topic anyone tends to discuss in real life
02:40:55 <itidus21> {blah} ::= text | <{identifier}{attribute-list}>{blah}</{identifier}> | <{identifier}{attribute-list}/>
02:41:00 <itidus21> {attribute-list} ::= | {attribute-list} {identifier}="text"
02:41:20 <itidus21> ugly.. i fucked that up
02:41:36 <itidus21> i won't put everyone through the agony of continuing
02:51:02 <elliott> itidus21: what do you mean "legal"
02:51:28 <itidus21> i mean that i can't be sued over it due to someones intellectual property
02:53:06 <elliott> oh, "legal" as in legal
02:53:18 <elliott> well any patent on that would be unenforceable and almost assuredly have plenty of prior art
02:53:21 <itidus21> this is why it's fun to chat with me
02:53:23 <elliott> so why are you worrying about it
02:53:43 <itidus21> basically due to the microsoft xml thing
02:54:51 <itidus21> but i am being absurd
02:54:57 <itidus21> yeah
02:56:12 <itidus21> since after all xml is more than 2 lines of bnf
02:56:22 <coppro> `addquote <elliott> oh, "legal" as in legal
02:56:32 <HackEgo> 848) <elliott> oh, "legal" as in legal
02:57:08 -!- stanley has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
02:57:23 <coppro> `url
02:57:26 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
02:59:00 <coppro> 1delquote 844
02:59:03 <coppro> 1delquote 844
02:59:06 <coppro> `delquote 844
02:59:10 <HackEgo> ​*poof* becal pckecibedecimacibedey d pakely pckensensly d dely decimecked pacimakecal dey
02:59:21 <itidus21> :o
03:00:54 -!- stanley has joined.
03:00:57 <shachaf> `run echo 'quote elliott' > bin/quelliott; chmod +x bin/quelliott
03:01:00 <HackEgo> No output.
03:01:01 <shachaf> `quelliott
03:01:04 <HackEgo> 171) <fungot> elliott: i like scsh's mechanism best: it's most transparent and doesn't really serve a very useful feature. \ 174) <fungot> elliott: it's hard to debug havoc on your mirror if you accidentally hit r, then a character could be multiple words long, depending on the task. \ 183) <Gregor> elliott: My university has two Poultry Science buildings. <Gregor> Two! \ 191) <elliott> Vorpal loves the sodomy. <Vorpal>
03:02:20 <elliott> `rm bin/quelliott
03:02:22 <HackEgo> No output.
03:02:22 <elliott> `welcome stanley
03:02:25 <HackEgo> stanley: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
03:02:29 <elliott> Too much bottage.
03:02:44 <shachaf> Henceforth, bottage is verboten.
03:03:55 <ion> `run quote | tr ' ' '\n' | shuf | tr '\n' ' '
03:03:59 <HackEgo> Received [CTCP] ERRMSG. 224) reply from unknown CTCP: clog: CTCP-ERRMSG
03:04:37 <ion> okay then
03:04:46 <shachaf> ion: Do you know what "verboten" means?
03:04:46 <elliott> hi
03:04:49 <shachaf> @wn verboten
03:04:50 <lambdabot> *** "verboten" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
03:04:50 <lambdabot> verboten
03:04:50 <lambdabot> adj 1: excluded from use or mention; "forbidden fruit"; "in our
03:04:50 <lambdabot> house dancing and playing cards were out"; "a taboo
03:04:50 <lambdabot> subject" [syn: {forbidden}, {out(p)}, {prohibited},
03:04:52 <lambdabot> {proscribed}, {taboo}, {tabu}, {verboten}]
03:04:54 <shachaf> oops
03:05:57 <ion> I’m a rebel
03:06:33 <itidus21> <LT> ::= '<'; <GT> ::= '>'
03:06:50 <itidus21> <text> ::= <text> |'a'|'b'|'c'|'d'|'e'|'f'|'g'|'h'|'i'|'j'|'k'|'l'|'m'|'n'|'o'|'p'|'q'|'r'|'s'|'t'|'u'|'v'|'w'|'x'|'y'|'z'
03:07:00 <itidus21> <attribute-list> ::= | <text>="<text>" | <attribute-list><attribute-list>
03:07:07 <itidus21> <blah> ::= <text> | <LT><text><attribute-list><GT><blah><LT>/<text><GT> | LT<text><attribute-list>/<GT>
03:07:13 <shachaf> ion: I‘m even more of a rebel.
03:07:15 <shachaf> Did you see that?
03:07:23 <ion> yes
03:07:33 <ion> But you only broke your own rule.
03:08:02 <shachaf> Which rule?
03:08:11 <itidus21> i call it... whatthe
03:08:17 <shachaf> I‘m talking about the apostrophe rule.
03:08:18 <ion> That bottage is verboten.
03:08:41 <ion> Didn’t see that one.
03:08:53 <shachaf> Didn‘t see it?
03:11:55 <ion> I didn„t indeed.
03:12:26 <elliott> What,re you talking about
03:13:59 <coppro> `delquote 637
03:14:01 <coppro> I don't like non-quotes
03:14:01 <HackEgo> ​*poof* <coppro> clearly darth needs something gray and big and proving the uncountability of the reals
03:14:43 <ion> Hey, some of my family is non-quotes.
03:17:21 <elliott> coppro: how is that a non-quote
03:17:37 <elliott> it's a bad quote, admittedly
03:18:47 <coppro> elliott: I never said that afiact
03:19:51 <coppro> elliott: also most of our quotes are bad
03:20:04 <coppro> see http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.13197 if you care though
03:20:23 <elliott> `pastlog <coppro> clearly darth needs something gray and big and proving the uncountability of the reals
03:20:30 <HackEgo> 2011-10-24.txt:07:47:03: <HackEgo> 691) <coppro> clearly darth needs something gray and big and proving the uncountability of the reals
03:20:34 <elliott> `pastelogs <coppro> clearly darth needs something gray and big and proving the uncountability of the reals
03:20:41 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.27520
03:21:08 <elliott> coppro: I think you said that to me in /msg.
03:21:45 <coppro> elliott: hmm... possibly
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03:54:19 <zzo38> If a tensor category follow this (whenever the types match) what is it called: f . g = f *** g
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05:30:30 <zzo38> What is "ABC starting with C"?
05:35:23 <monqy> C
05:40:36 <shachaf> (C) monqy
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06:56:04 <asiekierka> hello
06:56:38 <asiekierka> so it's the time of year when i can get another nifty electronic device or devices
06:56:39 <asiekierka> what do I get?
06:57:12 <zzo38> I don't know.
07:08:47 <pikhq> asiekierka: Several terabytes.
07:34:32 <zzo38> I think I managed to make the same Haskell solution to anarchy golf "Cross Product of two Strings" at least the length and statistic matches!
07:34:53 <zzo38> But maybe not; in ten days I can check for sure
07:59:41 * itidus21 . o O ( MOV AX, (ADD (SUB AX, BX), (INC CX)) )
08:03:00 <shachaf> What?
08:04:33 <itidus21> it's how assembly language might look if it had nested expressions
08:06:04 <itidus21> ex officio!
08:07:04 <shachaf> Even your assembly language doesn't make any sense.
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08:10:17 <itidus21> roughly means: ax=(ax-bx)+(++cx);
08:10:28 <itidus21> in my mind
08:12:51 <zzo38> Yes you just need to know order of evaluation do like SUB AX BX INC CX ADD AX CX
08:13:28 <itidus21> im not certain it can work though
08:13:48 <itidus21> asm has lots of strange constraints
08:14:57 <itidus21> im just thinking too loudly
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09:41:23 <Phantom__Hoover> Wow, webpagesthatsuck.com describes a site as "nswf". Twice.
09:41:34 <Phantom__Hoover> Is that... not safe wor fork?
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11:24:47 <Vorpal> hi
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12:39:16 <Vorpal> wtf... I think the images my cheap scanner produces are slightly skewed... I scanned two copies of the same image, but with one rotated 90°, and there is no rotation that matches up the whole image...
12:39:20 <Vorpal> looks like skew
12:39:21 <Vorpal> how weird
12:53:44 <Sgeo> strings is officially my favorite program ever.
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13:44:44 <Deewiant> Phantom__Hoover: "not so work friendly"
13:48:16 <Sgeo> Fuck Yeah rsync
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14:53:26 <Sgeo> I apparently made a Worlds wiki
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15:06:55 <Phantom__Hoover> Ooh where
15:07:01 <Phantom__Hoover> does it record all the surreal horrors
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15:25:43 <Taneb> Hello!
15:34:14 <Sgeo> Phantom__Hoover, it doesn't record much of anything\
15:34:37 <Sgeo> Except for a world that, as far as I can tell, is not part of Worlds
15:34:46 <Sgeo> I think the person who added it was in the wrong wiki
15:35:06 <Sgeo> http://worlds.wikia.com/wiki/Special:AllPages
15:35:41 <Sgeo> Page in question: http://worlds.wikia.com/wiki/Wasteland
16:40:38 <Sgeo> On the one hand, I'm curious about Tcl, on the other, I think some people consider it terrible
16:41:04 <Phantom__Hoover> For any given thing, some people will consider it terrible.
16:43:55 <Sgeo> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/99681/why-wont-tcl-die
16:44:08 <Sgeo> " If you never really liked shell-script (or make, for that matter), you'll probably dislike Tcl"
16:44:19 <Sgeo> On the other hand, I like what I'm reading in some of the other answers
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16:46:15 <ion> Meanwhile in Russia http://youtu.be/elxuGbkvETQ
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16:52:10 <Phantom__Hoover> The question of why that was being filmed is, I feel, and important and unaddressed one.
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16:54:05 <ion> @tell phantom__hoover Plenty of people have dash cams.
16:54:05 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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17:05:24 <Sgeo> Installing ActiveTcl
17:06:01 -!- itidus20 has changed nick to itidus21.
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17:23:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Dammit I hate having to babysit yaourt whenever I want to install or upgrade anything from AUR.
17:23:55 <Phantom_Hoover> No, I don't want to edit pkgbuild. Yes, I want to continue building. Yes, I want to proceed with installation.
17:23:55 <Taneb> Hello
17:24:01 <Phantom_Hoover> hello Taneb
17:24:15 <Taneb> My fortress just got a 30-dwarf migrant wave
17:24:20 <Phantom_Hoover> join me on an adventure of simultaneously pirating mathematica and morrowind
17:24:41 <Taneb> Can I be weird and pirate Daggerfall and Alpha?
17:24:59 <Phantom_Hoover> *Arena
17:25:19 <Phantom_Hoover> And Bethesda provide both for free download, so why bother pirating?
17:25:26 -!- edwardk has joined.
17:25:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Also if you pirate them you miss out on Michael Kirkbride lore -_-
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17:38:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Also apparently Arena is hard as balls, to the extent that you have like a 5% chance of getting out of the first dungeon.
17:38:57 <zzo38> Do you have any suggestions to improve optimization or other features of "dvi-processing" Haskell program?
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17:40:54 <zzo38> One thing is completely fails to do is to use the w,x,y,z registers in the output. (It will correctly process them in an input, though.)
17:41:30 <Phantom_Hoover> I love it when websites ask me to give them their country.
17:42:39 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, /their/ country!?
17:42:44 <Taneb> Not your country?
17:42:56 <Phantom_Hoover> OK my country THANK YOU TANEB
17:46:03 <olsner> Not you're country?
17:48:57 <zzo38> Do you know rules for chess boxing? I have read that if a player takes too long to make a move in chess he is given a warning and must make a move in ten seconds or be disqualified. I don't like that; a player can still lose on a chess clock. Perhaps set a 100 second time limit per move which is reset at the beginning of each round, and if you don't move, your opponent can make a move for you.
17:49:17 <zzo38> That is, in addition to the chess clock.
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17:49:33 <zzo38> (If you run out of time on the chess clock you would still lose instantly.)
17:51:46 <zzo38> In addition, I would reduce the breaks to 45 seconds. If you are saved by the bell, but remain knocked out during the break and then when it is time to make a chess move you are still knocked out, your chess clock continues anyways and if you have little time left even though you can make checkmate in one move, you lose anyways even though you are saved by the bell.
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18:09:47 <zzo38> Do you like this document? http://sprunge.us/VcYO
18:12:07 <Sgeo> My impression of Tcl so far is that it's probably a very suitable language for a "malicious code that looks like innocent code" contest
18:12:48 <zzo38> Sgeo: Try!
18:21:48 <Sgeo> Richard Stallman hates Tcl?
18:21:56 <Phantom_Hoover> You're surprised?
18:26:14 <edwardk> zzo38: taking up chess boxing?
18:27:27 <zzo38> edwardk: No, but one day I read about it and I thought about the rules.
18:34:21 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, yes, because as far as I know Tcl isn't proprietary
18:34:31 <itidus21> http://www.vanderburg.org/OldPages/Tcl/war/0000.html
18:34:50 <itidus21> Why you should not use Tcl -- Richard Stallman
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18:55:57 <zzo38> Just because it isn't proprietary does not necessarily mean it isn't a good quality.
18:56:08 <zzo38> Just because it isn't proprietary does not necessarily mean it is a good quality.
18:58:41 <Phantom_Hoover> I hate hate hate hate hate using Wine.
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18:59:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Nothing *ever* just works; you always need to iron out some bug or unmet dependency or something.
19:01:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Example: I need mfc100u.dll. This is apparently in winetricks' vcrun2010. Running this generates a warning about mfc100u.dll not being found (even though it should've installed it) and then crashes on subsequent runs.
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19:04:40 <Sgeo> "F'rinstance, Tcl's support for lambda expressions is weak to nonexistant; OTOH, command prefixes as higher-order functions work rather well."
19:05:17 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: yeah i feel that way about life in general.
19:05:38 <itidus21> me too
19:05:44 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan are you being snarky with me
19:06:11 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: no, just depressed. i fear that i'm becoming more and more like itidus21
19:06:22 <Phantom_Hoover> I
19:06:28 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm so, so sorry
19:06:35 <itidus21> how rapidly is this happening?
19:07:37 <oerjan> it seems to be accelerating, i expect an asymptote within the next year or so.
19:08:39 <Phantom_Hoover> It could just be a cubic.
19:08:46 <oerjan> MAYBE
19:08:47 <itidus21> basically, my family is all but broken. there is no point to be happy in the morning in this house
19:10:22 <oerjan> i no longer speak to my dad, i just cannot bear the feel of guilt at the end of every conversation.
19:11:06 <olsner> we're always here for you oerjan
19:11:12 <itidus21> something which would seem trivial, like feeling comfortable to occupy an empty loungeroom... my brother will come along and say like "let's watch this other thing"
19:11:30 <oerjan> olsner: yeah until my computer breaks
19:12:28 <olsner> we'll still be here if your computer breaks, you just can't reach us
19:12:34 <oerjan> OKAY
19:12:37 <oerjan> XD
19:12:46 <itidus21> i shouldn't focus on the negatives... but my brother will start getting angry and stomping around if he can't find aluminum foil in kitchen.. saying to my mum "WHERE DID YOU PUT IT?"
19:12:51 <itidus21> something like that
19:13:23 <itidus21> or wondering where the vegetable stock is "DID YOU THROW IT OUT? _YES_ OR _NO_ "
19:13:58 <oerjan> yeah trying not to focus on the negatives works for about 20 minutes, until the negatives crashland on your focus again.
19:14:00 <itidus21> but whenever my mum thanks him for a meal he is like "hmph"
19:14:12 <oerjan> it _used_ to work for longer.
19:14:41 <olsner> oerjan: aren't you old enough to e.g. get a job where you don't need to interact with your family anmore?
19:14:58 <oerjan> olsner: um i'm not living with my family.
19:14:59 <olsner> that'd solve everything
19:15:03 <itidus21> its not just words though, the broken walls, doors, and window are a testatment to his tempers
19:15:25 <oerjan> i don't have a job either, nor do i feel capable of maintaining one.
19:15:51 <olsner> hmm, ok, I think I misunderstood the nature of your problem
19:16:23 <itidus21> but literally there is no gain for me to focus on negatives.. it primes my mind to think negatively
19:16:32 <oerjan> olsner: i'm not saying i'm exactly like itidus21, the _details_ are probably completely different, i just feel like every day i feel more and more in tune with his general position despite intellectually vehemently disagreeing with it.
19:17:11 <oerjan> but basically i think we share a complete inability to take initiative.
19:17:31 <oerjan> no matter how much we are prodded.
19:17:45 <olsner> well, prodding usually only demotivates
19:18:03 <itidus21> i snapped.. accidently attacked him with a bowl full of hot food.. when he was holding me down i got my mom to call cops... and he declared i wasnt his brother for 10 days
19:18:03 <oerjan> and the world simply cannot _accept_ people who cannot take initiative.
19:18:08 <itidus21> and cut off my internet
19:18:10 <itidus21> lol
19:18:19 <itidus21> its all fun.. :-S
19:19:42 <olsner> oerjan: that sounds a bit pessimistic, not everyone is or can be the initiator all the time, nor is everyone expected to be
19:19:58 <itidus21> now convincing myself he is really not intentionally setting out to do these things
19:20:47 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, iti's problem at least is that he can *never* initiate anything.
19:20:59 <itidus21> be wary with what you focus on... it will ultimately overlwhem you
19:21:48 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: well, is that really the case though?
19:23:02 <itidus21> ok ok im not the topic
19:23:13 <itidus21> i guess im part of it though
19:24:08 <itidus21> basically, i think the pain is in trying to avoid feedback loops developing
19:25:18 <itidus21> like if someone does something harmful to you, you want it to be absolute, not a relative increase in harmfulness each time
19:27:11 <itidus21> but being harmful does in practice tend to be a feedback loop that you can't stop. you have to literally run out. like an army withdrawing from a war
19:28:56 <itidus21> i don't want to think about it like this :D
19:29:13 <itidus21> im gonna watch some nyan cat
19:29:58 <Vorpal> elliott left again?
19:29:58 <itidus21> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZZ7oFKsKzY
19:30:07 <Vorpal> oh well
19:30:26 <itidus21> have faith in nyan cat
19:43:50 <itidus21> oerjan: i'm doing ok. you can do ok too. it's not realistic to make comparisons of yourself with me. :D i was being pushed around since i began school. this i could live with
19:44:32 <itidus21> it's only when i started to not trust my own family that i felt lost. but i am learning they deserve more trust than i give them
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20:20:30 <Sgeo> "Upvar interacts with traces in a straightforward but possibly unexpected manner."
20:20:41 <Sgeo> I think that's a good description of Tcl in general.
20:20:49 <Sgeo> "Straightforward but possibly unexpected"
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21:43:36 <Vorpal> huh. zombie shell processes on my android phone. Lots of them. Their parent is called "kiesexe", since "Kies" is Samsung's PC software suite (that adds absolutely nothing useful to me) I guess it is something related to that.
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21:53:42 * oerjan notes that "notify" becomes "naughtify" if you pronounce it with a mad science accent
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22:33:56 <oerjan> i think is shall have to use a "what is this i don't even" http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&hl=no&v=iAJBuGwQEHg
22:46:56 <oerjan> http://www.math.psu.edu/rvaughan/568Quotations.pdf :D
22:47:20 * oerjan is pasting links from r/math, btw
22:50:42 <Phantom_Hoover> oh my god it's scored to the ecstasy of gold
22:50:43 <Phantom_Hoover> why
22:53:22 <Sgeo> I like this song I think
22:53:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Of course you do, it's Ennio Morricone.
22:53:57 <oerjan> i was about to say that.
22:55:09 <Phantom_Hoover> (Not completely sure how that theorem qualifies for a PhD, assume there's more to it.)
22:55:11 <Gregor> That shall be how I make my thesis.
22:55:13 <Gregor> Screw writing.
22:55:15 <Gregor> INTERPRETIVE DANCE
22:55:17 <Phantom_Hoover> (If it's that easy to get one I'm set for life.)
22:56:50 <Gregor> It slightly bothers me that the video ends with "Q.E.D.". I'm about 85% sure that interpretive dance is not a widely accepted proof technique.
22:56:58 <Sgeo> So, Facebook wrongly blocked a URL
22:57:01 <oerjan> Gregor: YET
22:57:01 <Sgeo> I can't report the URL as being wrongly blocked because when I try to submit the form, Facebook blocks it due to the URL
22:57:23 <oerjan> smooth
22:57:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, like I said I'm not even sure whether anything of interest was proved.
22:58:12 <Gregor> Certainly nothing was proved by the video, but we don't even know the thesis statement, let alone the actual theorem :)
22:58:20 * oerjan didn't actually pay attention to the math much :P
22:59:19 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm guessing she extended the hell out of it for the thesis because... well, anything that can be proven in a few minutes of interpretative dance is not enough to get 'Dr' stuck onto your name.
22:59:51 <Gregor> Yeah, again, nothing was actually proved by the dance, it's a demonstration X_X
23:00:26 <oerjan> oh hm the author comments on the reddit thread http://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/vx3wt/cutting_sequences_on_the_double_pentagon/
23:01:17 <Phantom_Hoover> One day I will care about mathematical concepts that don't have Wikipedia articles.
23:01:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Today is not that day.
23:03:40 <oerjan> "For those interested, the paper the video is based on can be found here. The introduction to the paper is very accessible, and answers most of the questions people are asking."
23:03:51 <oerjan> here=http://math.brown.edu/~diana/math/VeechPolygons.pdf
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2012-07-04
00:11:47 -!- elliott has joined.
00:51:49 <Vorpal> elliott, HI!
00:52:03 <shachaf> hellioptter
00:58:18 <elliott> Vorpal: what
00:58:18 <elliott> hi
00:58:18 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
00:58:20 <elliott> ugh
00:58:33 <elliott> monqy: what
01:04:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, Livonia is a real place???
01:04:52 <Phantom_Hoover> I swear Neil Gaiman knows everything.
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01:15:57 <newsham> esolang wiki has a page for a langauge called "lambda" but broken link :(
01:16:32 <newsham> wanted to mention i also wrote a small language I called "lambda" (i know.. join the club).. http://www.thenewsh.com/~newsham/lambda/
01:17:13 <shachaf> hewsham
01:17:17 <newsham> hi
01:18:01 <shachaf> I think when there are multiple languages people make pages with the name of the author in parentheses.
01:18:13 <shachaf> E.g. http://esolangs.org/wiki/Clue_(Keymaker) http://esolangs.org/wiki/Clue_(oklopol)
01:18:37 <shachaf> (This suggests that you should make a second, unrelated language called "lambda", to cause some real confusion.)
01:18:54 <newsham> or change my name to calculus
01:20:29 <shachaf> If you do that, people might think you're not discreet.
01:20:57 <shachaf> Anyway, ask elliott about the Rules of the Wiki.
01:21:03 <shachaf> elliott: "rules plz"
01:24:27 <shachaf> The existing lambda page is very uninformative.
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01:43:50 <Phantom_Hoover> newsham!
01:44:27 <Phantom_Hoover> holy shit it's quarter to four
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01:50:59 <Gregor> elliott: Where's news-ham?
01:52:16 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
01:52:17 <copumpkin> in hawaii
01:54:11 <newsham> goog maps 96706
01:54:12 <shachaf> Ha, why?
01:54:33 <shachaf> All the cool zip codes start with 9, copumpkin.
01:54:48 <copumpkin> I dunno, 0 seems better to me
01:55:05 <newsham> right coasters
01:55:21 <shachaf> More like wrong coasters, am I right?
01:55:42 <shachaf> Hawaiian names look a bit like Finnish names.
01:55:48 <shachaf> Must be all the doubled vowels.
01:57:10 <newsham> alphabet: aeiou hklmnpw` (thats not punctuation, thats a gloteral(sp?) stop)
01:58:37 <shachaf> Glottal?
01:58:50 <newsham> probably
01:59:07 <shachaf> English has glottal stops too, they're just not written.
01:59:12 <newsham> sorry, english is nto my first language
01:59:14 <newsham> i speak american
01:59:23 <newsham> ie. i'm dumb
01:59:26 <shachaf> And I guess they're only at the beginnings of words, and often slurred.
01:59:43 <newsham> if we slur our words enough maybe we can be like the french
01:59:54 <newsham> drunken latin
02:13:11 <elliott> Hm what?
02:13:14 <elliott> newsham: Hi. What?
02:13:26 <elliott> Yes, we do disambiguation pages.
02:13:28 <newsham> hi.
02:13:41 <elliott> Something like Lambda (newsham) or Lambda (yourrealnamehere) or whatever and moving the existing Lambda to a similar title would be ideal.
02:13:49 <elliott> Then create a page like http://esolangs.org/wiki/Clue.
02:14:12 <elliott> Our current [[Lambda]] page is bad.
02:14:31 <elliott> Seems like the Wayback Machine has the page, at least.
02:14:35 <newsham> authors usually add their language to yoru wiki?
02:15:00 <elliott> Yes. You think more than one person cares about the 5000th brainfuck cipher enough to write a page about it? :)
02:15:17 <elliott> (Not saying anything about your language! Just that the wiki would hardly thrive if we had no vanity.)
02:15:36 <elliott> Probably upwards of 80% of new pages are authors creating pages for their own languages.
02:15:51 <elliott> Of course, if you want someone else to write a page that's fine too. Might not happen, though.
02:16:34 <newsham> i'm shocked that the world hasnt taken to writing new phone apps using my interpeter
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02:21:15 <elliott> it is pure injustice
02:21:16 <shachaf> elliott: Can you guess what newsham's real name is?
02:21:20 <elliott> is it News Ham
02:21:23 <elliott> New Sham
02:21:27 <elliott> Ne Wsham
02:21:30 <elliott> Newsh Am
02:21:46 <shachaf> I do not want green eggs and ham. I do not want them, Newsh I am!
02:23:20 <newsham> will you eat them with a fox? will you eat them in a box?
02:23:37 <shachaf> IOUEgg#
02:32:16 <itidus21> wtf is firefox doing >.< ... i won't abandon it, but apparently it's unaware that it can chill out..
02:32:31 <newsham> ?bf >.<
02:32:31 <lambdabot> Done.
02:33:02 <itidus21> 1 page open, more or less standard html... and its using about 15% cpu..
02:33:03 <newsham> has anyone written meaningful prose that executes as an interesting bf program?
02:33:54 <shachaf> newsham: They play a BF competition game in here.
02:34:16 <shachaf> !bfjoust HELP I DON'T KNOW WHAT I'M DOING++++++[>.<>+>]+
02:34:26 <EgoBot> ​Score for shachaf_HELP: 6.7
02:34:39 <shachaf> elliott can tell you the rules.
02:34:57 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust, http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust_strategies
02:36:29 <newsham> bf core wars?
02:36:53 <itidus21> !bfjoust tidusthisisntagame >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>+<[+<]-[<-+[-]>+[-+]>-][+->+[-<-+>-[+<-]+>]]
02:36:56 <EgoBot> ​Score for itidus21_tidusthisisntagame: 2.1
02:37:33 <elliott> newsham: not quite core wars
02:37:41 <elliott> you have no access to the other program's source in any way, for instance
02:38:51 <itidus21> Fuck it, we'll use python 2. Theres no time for python 3. Fuck it.
02:39:41 <newsham> python 3 is the ipv6 of languages
02:39:47 * itidus21 looks around sheepishly.
02:40:00 <itidus21> this isn't actually the channel i intended to say that.
02:40:51 <newsham> iti: why not? py3 is an esoteric lang, no?
02:41:06 <itidus21> lol
02:41:35 <itidus21> im not really using it to make code, rather to run other peoples code
02:42:36 <newsham> hmm. do esoteric language extensions count? sigfpe wrote a py preprocessor which adds monad comprehensions to python
02:43:35 <newsham> maybe thats too useful to be esolang
02:45:16 <itidus21> i think i'm officially barred from determining what's officially esoteric
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02:57:38 <shachaf> Esolangness isn't just a bit.
02:57:43 <shachaf> There's a continuous scale.
02:57:55 <shachaf> It's measured in esolangstroms.
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05:37:47 <Dovregubben> Hi
05:39:46 <elliott> hi
05:39:48 <elliott> `welcome Dovregubben
05:39:59 <HackEgo> Dovregubben: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
05:42:31 <Dovregubben> oh, I don't know any esoteric programming languages
05:42:45 <Dovregubben> I found this channel on a site about Conway's Game of Life
05:43:04 <Dovregubben> apparently there's used to be a #gameoflife channel, but there isn't one now
05:43:27 <elliott> I think PH ran that one.
05:43:29 <elliott> He's in here a lot.
05:43:39 <elliott> Game of Life is pretty much on-topic here.
05:43:54 * Dovregubben is afraid the most esoteric programming language he knows is TI-99/4A BASIC
05:44:07 <elliott> also on-topic :P
05:44:22 <itidus21> this guy is already more qualified than me
05:44:49 <Dovregubben> wait.... logo would be considered a language, right?
05:44:59 <Dovregubben> haven't seen that in years....
05:45:02 <elliott> logo is a programming language yes
05:46:50 <Dovregubben> anyone here know anything about Life?
05:47:34 <itidus21> Dovregubben: make yourself comfortable.. i think you're in the right place
06:00:54 <itidus21> i don't. but everyone else does
06:07:20 <elliott> hi
06:07:34 <Dovregubben> hi
06:09:38 <Dovregubben> what qualifies something as a "methuselah?"
06:10:44 <Dovregubben> beyond the obvious, I mean
06:10:57 <Dovregubben> like... does it have to be assymetrical?
06:12:09 <Dovregubben> does it have to be composed only of one instance of a pattern?
06:13:23 <elliott> well it is a specific small configuration that takes many turns to stabilise
06:13:29 <elliott> "small" is of course subjective, as is "many"
06:13:37 <Dovregubben> yeah....
06:13:42 <elliott> "More specifically, Martin Gardner defines them as patterns of fewer than ten live cells which take longer than 50 generations to stabilize"
06:13:50 <Dovregubben> hmm...
06:14:08 <Dovregubben> I've been goofing around with a pattern of 12 cells that takes 1145 generations to stabilize
06:14:20 <elliott> http://www.conwaylife.com/wiki/Fred what a good pattern
06:14:25 <Dovregubben> I can't be the first person to discover it
06:14:29 <Dovregubben> but I can't find it anywhere
06:14:41 <elliott> http://www.conwaylife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=4610#p4610 nice
06:14:54 <elliott> Dovregubben: take a look at http://www.conwaylife.com/wiki/List_of_long-lived_methuselahs or such, perhaps?
06:15:03 <Dovregubben> looked there
06:15:06 <Dovregubben> not there
06:15:18 <Dovregubben> I'm thinking maybe because it's symmetrical it's not considered a methuselah?
06:15:20 <itidus21> The pattern is named after Dr. Fred Edison from the "Maniac Mansion" computer game, whose wife was also called "Edna". <-- heh
06:15:26 <elliott> I don't see why symmetrically would matter
06:15:29 <elliott> *symmetricality
06:34:43 * Sgeo vaguely wonders what elliott thinks of Tcl
06:36:38 <elliott> it's a language
06:36:54 <monqy> something about strings
06:39:33 <elliott> yes, strings are bad data structures
06:41:42 <Sgeo> Apparently, later implementations use good data structures behind the scenes
06:44:07 <elliott> yes because what what we need are low-level languages with high-level implementations
06:44:12 <elliott> my objection was clearly one of performance
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07:01:34 <Dovregubben> Happy Birthday America!
07:02:32 <Dovregubben> It's funny we call this independence day
07:03:37 <Dovregubben> we may have declared independence on July 4, 1776, but the rest of the world didn't recognize us as independent until years later (if at all)
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08:07:17 <Sgeo> Tcl seems like it might be a good language for a codenomic
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08:10:58 <itidus21> `pastelog tcl
08:11:17 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.5005
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12:15:30 <ion> Meanwhile in Finland http://youtu.be/8H7Qjp9itF8
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15:00:09 <Taneb> Hello!
15:07:16 <boily> Taneb: hi!
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16:08:36 <Taneb> Hello again!
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16:13:42 <Taneb> brb
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16:29:45 <Taneb> Back
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16:47:42 <elliott> @messages?
16:47:42 <lambdabot> Sorry, no messages today.
16:52:56 <Taneb> Hello, elliott
16:53:14 <elliott> Haneb,
16:53:16 <elliott> *.
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17:42:14 -!- Taneb has set topic: Individuals guilty of ruining this channel: itidus21 (ex officio), others (see /list) | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
17:42:36 <Taneb> No wait, /list lists channels?
17:43:43 -!- Taneb has set topic: Individuals guilty of ruining this channel: itidus21 (ex officio), others (see /names) | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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18:30:52 <Taneb> Phantom__Hoover, danger rooming advice?
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18:42:24 <Phantom__Hoover> Taneb, um, what're you having trouble with.
18:42:24 <lambdabot> Phantom__Hoover: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
18:42:41 <Taneb> Remembering how big they are and whether shields come before armour
18:43:07 <Phantom__Hoover> 5x1 with a door at the end, you give them armour, then weapons, then shield.
18:43:14 -!- edwardk has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
18:43:19 <Taneb> Okay
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18:49:18 <Phantom__Hoover> Oh also if you're DRing marksdorfs (for survivability) leave out the weapon altogether; they'll train in hammers rather than crossbows.
18:49:35 <Phantom__Hoover> <lambdabot> ion said 1d 1h 54m 29s ago: Plenty of people have dash cams.
18:49:51 <Phantom__Hoover> You mean they have cameras on their dashboard recording their daily drive?
18:49:54 <Phantom__Hoover> ...why?
18:51:04 -!- oerjan has set topic: Individuals guilty of ruining this channel: itidus21 (ex officio), oerjan (ex cathedra), others (see /names) | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
18:51:31 <oerjan> @quote
18:51:31 <lambdabot> Makoryu says: Why should people have to change how they think when learning a language with a reputation for changing how you think?!
18:51:53 <oerjan> a conundrum indeed
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18:53:10 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Danger rooms are another example of the kind of pathological behaviour that victory dancing promotes, incidentally.
18:53:25 <nortti> hi again
18:53:29 <Taneb> Hello
18:53:39 <oerjan> aloha
18:53:59 <Taneb> Are there any Icelanders in here
18:55:08 <oerjan> Eyjafjallajökull
18:55:20 <Taneb> Phantom__Hoover, I'm watching my untrained army getting utterly trounced by a wombat
18:58:27 <ion> phantom__hoover: For instance, having more proof than just your word against the other’s in case of a dispute after a crash that wasn’t your fault.
19:00:30 * oerjan smells a norwegian troll here
19:01:00 <elliott> ion isn't trolling, I believe that kind of thing is common in several countries.
19:01:07 <oerjan> except why would a norwegian troll use comcast
19:01:15 <oerjan> elliott: no, i mean from looking at the logs
19:01:19 <elliott> oh
19:01:19 <elliott> link
19:01:50 <oerjan> http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/2012-07-04.txt HTH
19:01:57 <elliott> who the fuck uses the .txt logs
19:02:02 <Taneb> Me?
19:02:10 <elliott> why
19:02:14 <oerjan> i do, the text was too big on the others
19:02:18 -!- ais523 has joined.
19:02:19 <Taneb> Habit
19:02:21 <elliott> the font sizes are identical
19:02:36 <Taneb> Paranoia
19:02:39 <nortti> I use txt logs
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19:03:32 <oerjan> elliott: no they're not
19:03:49 <oerjan> of course the .txt probably doesn't set any
19:04:14 <elliott> they ar ethe same for me
19:04:15 <elliott> *are the
19:04:44 <Taneb> Fear
19:05:31 <Taneb> Little shop of horrors is on
19:05:38 <Taneb> So bye
19:05:39 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
19:07:23 <oerjan> when i set the formatted page to use small font size, it becomes about the same character size as the .txt, but still with a lot bigger spacing
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19:07:43 <elliott> oerjan: i don't see any troll in the logs
19:07:45 <oerjan> elliott: any way i mean the troll starting with d and ending with ovregubben
19:07:49 <elliott> what
19:07:53 <elliott> why do you think they are a troll
19:08:37 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
19:08:41 <oerjan> elliott: try googling it
19:09:08 <elliott> oh.
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19:30:32 <Phantom__Hoover> <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Danger rooms are another example of the kind of pathological behaviour that victory dancing promotes, incidentally.
19:30:36 <Phantom__Hoover> Victory dancing?
19:31:38 -!- Deewiant has joined.
19:34:57 <elliott> the train-skill-by-using system
19:37:02 <Phantom__Hoover> What does that have to do with victory? Or indeed dancing?
19:37:48 <elliott> "victory dancing" is the art of repeatedly "dancing" a trivial victory to train a skill
19:37:58 <elliott> for instance killing plants repeatedly to train a fighting skill
19:41:52 <Phantom__Hoover> Anyway DRs are an example of the system being downright terribly-balanced, so that's hardly the whole of it.
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19:57:59 <ion> Internet Scam Alert: Most "Kickstarter" Projects Just Useless Crap http://youtu.be/qqZ65pUQxyQ
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20:17:06 <Phantom__Hoover> Oh, they found the Higgs.
20:17:45 <olsner> no, they found a particle that might be like higgs
20:18:00 <olsner> ... with high enough probability to publicly say that they might have found it
20:18:12 <Phantom__Hoover> YOU AND YOUR 'SCIENCE'
20:19:03 <olsner> when everyone else was busy going "ewwww, comic sans!" I was reading the text and learned everything
20:19:30 <oerjan> `addquote <olsner> when everyone else was busy going "ewwww, comic sans!" I was reading the text and learned everything
20:19:38 <HackEgo> 847) <olsner> when everyone else was busy going "ewwww, comic sans!" I was reading the text and learned everything
20:19:41 <oerjan> LET THAT BE A LESSON TO ALL
20:20:01 <olsner> let that be printed in comic sans as a lesson to all
20:20:11 <oerjan> but then most won't learn it!
20:48:08 <Phantom__Hoover> olsner, FWIW the particle is very like the Higgs, apparently.
20:49:16 <oerjan> the Wiggs particle
20:52:47 <Phantom__Hoover> Rich Teas are the worst thing ever.
20:52:55 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 13.0.1/20120614114901]).
20:53:09 <Phantom__Hoover> I mean a biscuit with 'tea' IN THE NAME that dissolves as soon as it even gets NEAR tea.
20:53:26 <oerjan> almost, but not entirely unlike tea. and the higgs boson.
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20:57:29 <itidus21> super biscuit?
20:58:17 <elliott> <Phantom__Hoover> Rich Teas are the worst thing ever.
20:58:19 <elliott> Fuck this channel.
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20:58:48 <Phantom__Hoover> CAN'T DEAL WITH THE HARD TRUTHS EH
20:59:57 <oerjan> he really _does_ have a low tolerance of boring subjects, doesn't he
21:01:07 <Phantom__Hoover> Can we please keep this in the strictly humorous?
21:07:11 * oerjan strictly throws Phantom__Hoover into the hummus
21:08:57 <itidus21> A flea and a fly in a flue, were trapped and knew not what to do,
21:09:03 <itidus21> 'Let us flee', said the fly, 'Let us fly', said the flea, so they flew through a flaw in the flue.
21:10:22 <Phantom__Hoover> Fleas can't fly.
21:13:46 <oerjan> tragic facts
21:13:52 -!- elliott has joined.
21:13:52 <elliott> 20:59:57: <oerjan> he really _does_ have a low tolerance of boring subjects, doesn't he
21:13:59 <elliott> It is not boring, Phantom__Hoover is just wrong and abominable scum.
21:14:00 <elliott> That is all.
21:14:00 <elliott> Die.
21:14:05 -!- elliott has left ("RICH TEA LYF").
21:14:41 <oerjan> ah, it was something immensely important and british. sorry for the misunderstanding.
21:14:42 <Phantom__Hoover> Might I ask you your opinions of digestives whilst you logread?
21:15:35 <olsner> I love digestives, if you mean the crackers
21:15:48 <itidus21> he doesn't mean laxatives :-D
21:15:49 <Phantom__Hoover> I probably mean the crackers.
21:15:52 <olsner> but I pronounce it in Swedish, for hysterical raisins
21:16:16 <oerjan> vad digestiva dom är(o)
21:17:19 -!- oerjan has set topic: Individuals guilty of ruining this channel: itidus21 (ex officio), oerjan (ex cathedra), olsner (k ex), others (see /names) | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
21:17:28 <olsner> k ex :D
21:17:42 <nortti> k ex?
21:17:59 <Phantom__Hoover> oerjan, must you *insist* on making the channel's topic a jab against one of its members?
21:18:03 * olsner proudly joins the channel ruining crew
21:18:25 <oerjan> Phantom__Hoover: no, i'm diluting by expansion
21:18:37 <Phantom__Hoover> Who set the topic to start with?
21:19:47 <oerjan> i'll have to check
21:20:05 <itidus21> i like biscuits with cream filling
21:20:05 <oerjan> `pastelogs ruining this channel
21:20:38 <HackEgo> No output.
21:20:41 <oerjan> `pastelogs ruining this channel
21:20:55 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.4438
21:21:28 * oerjan blames coppro
21:21:34 <itidus21> im not satisfied
21:21:47 <itidus21> but .. the log stands to reason
21:22:21 <itidus21> i'm sure it's more complicated story than tat
21:23:13 <itidus21> ah ok.. i see now
21:23:21 <itidus21> yeah coppro started it
21:24:58 <oerjan> it seemed reasonable in context
21:27:06 <itidus21> i just thought there was more to it
21:29:57 <itidus21> oerjan: 20 years from now you will miss the year 2012
21:31:26 <itidus21> the things we complain about now, will seem so great compared to what the future has in store
21:32:26 <oerjan> ...i think you are overdoing negativity now.
21:32:59 <oerjan> DON'T BLOODY MAKE UP MORE OF IT
21:33:28 <Phantom__Hoover> req. iti be kicked for overbearing, pretentious cynicis,
21:33:31 <Phantom__Hoover> *cynicism
21:33:38 <oerjan> tempting, tempting :P
21:34:12 <itidus21> Current projections show a continued increase in population (but a steady decline in the population growth rate), with the global population expected to reach between 7.5 and 10.5 billion by 2050 -- 7.5billion in 2050.. does this data tell me ANYTHING?
21:34:30 <Phantom__Hoover> It tells you exactly what it fucking says.
21:35:21 <itidus21> it basically says that population is likely to not decrease, and not likely to increase more than 3 billion
21:35:36 <Phantom__Hoover> Maybe if you'd actually try to think for once rather than exposit at length your inability to comprehend anything that isn't handed to you on a platter you could conclude something.
21:35:45 <Phantom__Hoover> See, it's not that hard!
21:36:03 <Phantom__Hoover> Keep it up and you might move beyond an effective mental age of 10.
21:36:06 <itidus21> i bet they actually spent money to reach that data
21:36:27 <Phantom__Hoover> Of course they fucking spent money it's immensely valuable information would you please shut up for once in your life.
21:40:19 <Vorpal> yay there is no a vlc version for android
21:40:49 <Vorpal> still in beta
21:40:59 <Phantom__Hoover> There's no a VLC version for Android??
21:41:05 <Vorpal> now*
21:41:06 <Vorpal> typo
21:41:24 <Phantom__Hoover> This is futile, that basically only makes sense to people who know something of Scottish slang.
21:41:33 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, XD
21:42:33 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, or who read any Discworld book with the Nac Mac Feegle in it.
21:42:43 <nortti> I am still waiting my vlc for mac os 9
21:42:44 <Phantom__Hoover> Maybe
21:42:51 <nortti> *for my
21:42:54 <Phantom__Hoover> nortti, are you seriously using OS9.
21:43:05 <nortti> not OS9, mac os 9
21:43:20 <Vorpal> I want a vlc version for System 7
21:43:24 <nortti> and yes. but my ppc mac broke
21:43:44 <nortti> vlc for system 6 and macminix 1.5
21:44:01 <Vorpal> oh and the beta is currently only for ARMv7 CPUs with Neon (works for me!), though more variants are apparently coming soon
21:44:30 <nortti> by the way does vlc work with minix 2?
21:44:46 <Vorpal> ha ha
21:44:52 <nortti> ?
21:45:29 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, I have an OS 9 laptop somewhere, not really using it unless I get nostalgic
21:45:39 -!- boily has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8).
21:45:45 <Vorpal> for the old Spiderweb Software and Ambrosia games.
21:45:51 <Phantom__Hoover> I thought he meant he had it on his dumpster machine.
21:45:56 <nortti> Vorpal: have you heard of Classilla
21:45:58 <Vorpal> oh right
21:46:11 <nortti> Phantom__Hoover: my dumpster machine has x86 cpu
21:46:24 <Vorpal> nortti, hey you could emulate OS 9
21:46:27 <Vorpal> this laptop can do it
21:46:32 <Vorpal> though it is very buggy
21:46:36 <Vorpal> google sheepshaver
21:46:51 <nortti> but not very fast and it would require me using X
21:47:33 <Vorpal> it is buggy, doesn't work for all programs, requires mmap_min_addr=0 to run, and is rather messy to compile. Oh and getting hold of the source of it was hard too
21:47:38 <Vorpal> since the project is basically dead
21:47:52 <Vorpal> it works for emulating Avernum 1 and Avernum 2 though (sadly not Avernum 3 and later)
21:48:30 <nortti> Mac OS 9 with irc client with name I cannot remember right now, Classilla, iCab 3.0.5 and Python 2.3 is actually pretty decent
21:48:43 <Vorpal> emulating System 7 on 68k hardware is much more stable
21:48:50 <Vorpal> basiliskII can do that
21:49:27 <nortti> I can believe. I have emulated system 6 on mac classic before and it was pretty stable
21:49:43 <Vorpal> anyway a core 2 Duo at 2.26 G is more than enough to emulate classic mac os. (System 7 boots in less than a second, OS 9 takes a few seconds, but most seem to be spent waiting for some network IO thingy or such)
21:50:06 <nortti> yeah. I have 700MHz pentium III....
21:50:22 <Vorpal> nortti, no I meant emulating system 7 on 68k hardware, with the emulator running on x86
21:50:28 -!- edwardk has joined.
21:50:38 <Vorpal> I haven't emulated system 7 on 68k, that would be silly
21:51:05 <nortti> erm. I meant running sys6 on emulated mac classic on ppc mac
21:51:16 <Vorpal> nortti, anyway BasiliskII (which is also a PITA to compile) might work on your CPU
21:51:39 <Vorpal> no idea if sheepshaver will work
21:51:41 <Vorpal> worth a try
21:52:14 <nortti> Vorpal: did you know that you can actually use mini vmac on m68k macs and with it emulate sys7 m68k machine on sys7 m68k machine=
21:52:18 <Vorpal> but setting it up is a an absolute PITA (and of course requires finding an OS 9 install cd image somewhere, wasn't terribly hard, there was a site that specialised in classic mac os abandonware)
21:52:21 <Vorpal> (forgot the name of it)
21:52:42 <nortti> macintosh garden?
21:52:46 <Vorpal> ah yes
21:52:47 <Vorpal> thats it
21:52:52 <Vorpal> nortti, hm? I thought mini vmac only did up to system 6?
21:52:54 <Vorpal> oh well
21:53:02 <Vorpal> anyway the software I'm interested in is PPC
21:53:06 <Vorpal> so sheepshaver it is for me
21:53:20 <nortti> I have ran sys 7.0 under mini vMac
21:53:35 <nortti> don't know about anything newer
21:53:40 <Vorpal> I only wish I could get Escape Velocity or Escape Velocity Override working under emulation
21:53:44 <Vorpal> those games were awesome
21:54:13 <Vorpal> and of course, the avernum series is stellar
21:55:47 <nortti> umh. basilishII fails x11 check
21:56:07 <nortti> I do actually currently have x11 installed'
21:56:49 <Vorpal> nortti, maybe not the development headers?
21:56:50 <Vorpal> or such
21:56:59 <Vorpal> x11 have a lot of different packages for that
21:57:10 <Vorpal> if you mean configure failed?
21:57:14 <Vorpal> config.log should help
21:57:15 <nortti> yes
21:58:04 <Vorpal> nortti, hm my ~/src/mac contains a debug build of libsdl. Yeah, it can be annoying to get working... XD
21:58:17 <nortti> ...
21:58:33 <Vorpal> nortti, that was for sheepshaver though
21:58:41 <Vorpal> oh looks like I checked SheepShaver out from CVS?
21:59:13 <Vorpal> nortti, if you are interested in SheepSaver this might be useful: :pserver:anoncvs@cvs.cebix.net:/home/cvs/cebix
21:59:22 <Vorpal> repo is "SheepShaver"
21:59:27 <nortti> when my iBook g4 still worked I had pretty much built complete netbsd system under ~/src
21:59:54 <Vorpal> nortti, g4? That thing was way more powerful than your current computer
22:00:05 <nortti> yes. is broke
22:00:08 <Vorpal> I have a first model ibook g3
22:00:14 <Vorpal> dead battery
22:00:22 <nortti> the colored ones
22:00:22 <Vorpal> oh and the power connector is glitchy
22:00:27 <Vorpal> yes, blue
22:00:38 <Vorpal> so you better sit very still when using that computer
22:00:39 <nortti> how much RAM? what OS?
22:01:15 <nortti> ok. let me quess. it has Mac OS 9?
22:01:17 <Vorpal> nortti, OS 9 (came with OS 8.6 iirc, but my dad got an imac SE at the same time, that came with an OS 9 disc, so I used that to upgrade)
22:01:41 <Vorpal> as for RAM, 32 MB built in, 32 MB added
22:01:47 <Vorpal> so a whopping total of 64 MB!
22:02:07 <nortti> same amount of ram as I now have
22:02:21 <Vorpal> 300 MHz
22:02:25 <Vorpal> 3.2 GB disk space
22:02:43 <Vorpal> nortti, which desktop environment do you use?
22:02:45 <Vorpal> LXDE?
22:02:55 <Vorpal> or just a simple window manager?
22:02:58 <Vorpal> like twm
22:03:05 <nortti> I don't use x11. I use links2 -g amd mplayer fbdev
22:03:13 <nortti> *and
22:04:12 <Vorpal> nortti, you need x11 for basiliskII though
22:04:15 <Vorpal> and sheepshaver
22:04:22 <Vorpal> anyway sheepshaver is going to strain your RAM
22:04:24 <nortti> yes. I have it installed
22:04:26 <Vorpal> your CPU is probably fine
22:05:06 <nortti> I sometimes have to use x11 (hv3, netsurf, pygame) and then I either use wwm or mwm
22:05:31 <Vorpal> pygame?
22:05:34 <Vorpal> isn't that a library
22:05:47 <itidus21> i've got pygame.
22:06:10 <nortti> yes. pygame uses sdl and requires x11
22:06:12 <itidus21> the trick is to get the right version.. python 2.6.6 is recommended
22:06:26 <itidus21> by someone O.o
22:06:32 <nortti> I have python 2.5.1
22:06:38 <itidus21> i don't know :D
22:06:49 <itidus21> i think the most important thing is don't get 3.x
22:07:07 <Vorpal> <itidus21> the trick is to get the right version.. python 2.6.6 is recommended <-- uh?
22:07:20 <Vorpal> anyway python 2.7 should be fine then
22:07:24 <itidus21> well..
22:07:26 <itidus21> i dunno
22:07:29 <Vorpal> 3.x is very different from 2.x
22:07:40 <Vorpal> you need to port all but trivial programs
22:07:56 <Vorpal> usually not too hard to port
22:08:03 <itidus21> i am under the impression that 2.7 might be too far
22:08:13 <itidus21> but i am new to the python world
22:08:13 <Vorpal> unless you are using the C API
22:08:26 <nortti> and at least on windows pygame is not thread safe. when I programmed for it I made my own game engine with corountine scheduler as pygame froze wen I tried to use threads :P
22:08:29 <Vorpal> that can be a lot of work to port (I have first hand experience of that)
22:09:13 <nortti> isn't there a small program for autonmaticaly converting python 2 to python 3?
22:09:29 <Vorpal> nortti, is python ever thread safe?
22:09:39 <Vorpal> it uses a fucking global lock for the entire interpreter
22:09:54 <itidus21> theres a lot of fun little games made for python 2.x
22:09:58 <Vorpal> all you can do is make some pure-C routines drop that lock while doing IO tasks and such
22:10:12 <Vorpal> so python is in effect single threaded
22:10:17 <Vorpal> single core
22:10:46 <nortti> has anybody ever got grail (pure python web browser) to work?
22:11:00 <Vorpal> pure python web browser? Insane
22:11:08 <Vorpal> CPython is slow
22:11:30 <nortti> I know. and it is from the python 2.0 era
22:11:35 <Vorpal> python itself isn't slow. PyPy is like several times faster than CPython
22:11:42 <Vorpal> however, PyPy is still slow
22:11:43 <olsner> might as well use mod_rewrite to render the page into a data: png image
22:11:50 <Vorpal> compared to something like cython
22:12:30 <Vorpal> olsner, to be fair, mod_rewrite is extremely suited to string rewriting, I'm not sure it would perform as good at a task like this
22:13:20 <olsner> you're "not sure"? :D
22:13:33 <Vorpal> olsner, actually I'm sure it wouldn't
22:13:43 <Vorpal> but I don't have hard evidence to back up that statement
22:13:51 <Vorpal> (I haven't tested after all)
22:15:19 <Vorpal> olsner, anyway you can see an order of magnitude speed up using cython instead of cpython
22:15:25 <Vorpal> at least for some use cases
22:15:47 <olsner> oh, I thought cython was a misspelling of cpython
22:15:54 <Vorpal> no
22:17:00 <Vorpal> olsner, we had a lab at university to implement a reversi AI, the course used python. I implemented a pure python version, it managed to get to 5 ply (using alpha-beta pruning). Then I made a cython version and easily got to 8 ply on the same machine. (There were some limits on how long it was allowed to think about a move, iirc 15 seconds)
22:17:29 <Vorpal> a pure C version would probably have performed slightly better than that even (since some python API calls remained)
22:17:38 <Phantom__Hoover> what's a ply
22:17:42 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, a half-move
22:17:50 <Vorpal> it is a term used in reversi AIs
22:18:15 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, so 2 ply means the AI is looking ahead by one move by itself, and one move by the opponent
22:18:39 <Vorpal> I have no idea who invented the word ply for that
22:20:58 <Vorpal> anyways the calls that remained were fairly expensive, some accesses of a python dict iirc. A 2D C array would have been sufficient and worked well, but that would have meant rewriting the teacher-provided GUI code
22:22:04 <Vorpal> (also it would have involved manual memory management)
23:31:55 -!- nortti_ has joined.
23:43:26 <nortti_> unix v7 is not very well suitable for daily use
23:46:16 <itidus21> i interpret that as meaning it's best for non-interactive apps like servers
23:47:12 <nortti_> well maybe. it is pretty light
23:47:18 -!- kallisti has joined.
23:47:36 <kallisti> `ls
23:47:39 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ foo \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom
23:49:08 <kallisti> OH GOD THE SILENCE
23:49:11 <kallisti> MAKE IT STOP.
23:49:31 <monqy> hi
23:49:39 <kallisti> hi
23:49:51 <oerjan> SHHHH
23:49:56 <oerjan> WE'RE BEING SILENT HERE
23:50:01 <kallisti> NO FUCK IT
23:50:06 <kallisti> I AM GOING TO MAKE THE WORDS
23:50:11 <oerjan> `? kallisti
23:50:14 <HackEgo> kallisti is a former prophet swearing off his pastry deity
23:50:23 <kallisti> accurate.
23:50:57 <kallisti> `words 20 # hello does this still work?
23:51:03 <HackEgo> ferrito sciallcifor afl gee nov sorthalfp bearlin euesdi expoemlo preconf koele unglebo tobalmi pion pen quolicalloq guidi maufi johan fliously
23:51:05 <kallisti> yesssss
23:51:17 <kallisti> my #esoteric legacy.
23:51:39 <oerjan> quite
23:54:17 <nortti_> `run file `which words`
23:54:21 <HackEgo> ​/hackenv/bin/words: a /usr/bin/perl script text executable
23:54:58 <nortti_> `run cat `which words` | paste
23:55:01 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.27827
23:55:14 <kallisti> `cat paste
23:55:17 <HackEgo> cat: paste: Is a directory
23:55:17 <kallisti> `cat `which paste`
23:55:20 <HackEgo> cat: `which paste`: No such file or directory
23:55:28 <kallisti> oh right
23:55:31 <kallisti> `run cat `which paste`
23:55:34 <HackEgo> ​#!/bin/bash \ if [ ! "$1" ] \ then \ PASTE=- \ else \ PASTE="$1" \ fi \ \ PASTENUM="$RANDOM" \ \ mkdir -p $HACKENV/paste \ \ echo 'http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.'"$PASTENUM" \ cat "$PASTE" > $HACKENV/paste/paste."$PASTENUM"
23:55:42 <kallisti> oh right.
23:56:02 <kallisti> `run paste `which words`
23:56:05 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.9578
23:56:11 <kallisti> nortti_: USELESS USE OF CAT POLICE ACTIVATE.
23:57:14 <nortti_> ok. I also grep the cat sometimes
23:57:26 <kallisti> yes, we all do.
23:58:10 <oerjan> `help
23:58:12 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
23:58:24 <oerjan> you can also look it up in the repository
23:58:49 <kallisti> how.. ordinary.
23:59:24 <oerjan> `which url
23:59:27 <HackEgo> ​/hackenv/bin/url
23:59:41 <oerjan> `run url `which words`
23:59:44 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip//hackenv/bin/words
2012-07-05
00:00:24 <oerjan> ...that didn't work
00:01:33 <oerjan> the /hackenv/ shouldn't be there
00:01:43 <oerjan> `cat bin/url
00:01:45 <HackEgo> ​#!/bin/bash \ if [ "$1" ] \ then \ echo 'http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/'"$1" \ else \ echo 'http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/' \ fi
00:03:26 <oerjan> `run echo $PATH
00:03:29 <HackEgo> ​/hackenv/bin:/opt/python27/bin:/opt/ghc/bin:/usr/bin:/bin
00:06:10 <nortti_> does anyone here have any experience with unix v[567]
00:06:52 <oerjan> istr someone here tried to get something running on the earliest unix possible
00:07:23 <nortti_> unix v1
00:07:29 <nortti_> +?
00:07:49 <oerjan> by "possible", i mean the earliest that was at all reasonable
00:07:58 <nortti_> oh
00:08:55 <nortti_> whar version was it?
00:09:03 <kallisti> you know what would be awesome.. hackbot + simh images
00:09:33 -!- Patashu[Zzz] has changed nick to Patashu.
00:09:37 <oerjan> nortti_: i'm not implying i remember this at all clearly
00:10:35 <nortti_> what was the command to download data to HackEgo
00:10:40 <kallisti> fetch
00:11:00 -!- ais523 has quit.
00:11:57 <nortti_> but yeah. unix v7 would be fun as it is at least usable for programming kinda modernly
00:12:44 <nortti_> (v6 doesn't have this little thing called stdio)
00:13:18 <itidus21> i forgot that day to day use doesn't normally include programming
00:14:14 <nortti_> oh and from my experience v5 and v6 don't have malloc
00:14:21 <kallisti> `run lsb_release -d
00:14:25 <HackEgo> Description:.Debian GNU/Linux
00:14:46 <kallisti> `run uname -a
00:14:49 <HackEgo> Linux umlbox 3.0.8-umlbox #2 Sun Nov 13 21:30:28 UTC 2011 x86_64 GNU/Linux
00:16:39 <nortti_> HackEgo with old unix images might actually be feasible as some old unixes are now under bsd license
00:17:35 <kallisti> it would be nice to switch between them arbitrarily, but how would it be possible to fetch data into the simulator?
00:19:05 <kallisti> (and obviously mercurial is out of the question)
00:19:30 <kallisti> what kind of console languages do these things even run?
00:19:32 * kallisti is clueless.
00:19:57 <nortti_> original bourne shell, ed sceiprs
00:20:07 <nortti_> *scripts
00:21:05 <nortti_> oh. and little warning. ed is the only text editor on research unixes 0-7
00:21:09 <kallisti> hm, so technically it should be possible to fetch data from a URL and place it some file on the system.
00:21:16 <kallisti> +in
00:21:37 <kallisti> even if you have to do so through ed.
00:21:54 <nortti_> yes. maybe there would be uuencode system
00:22:20 <nortti_> so special chars wouldn't mess it up
00:22:50 <nortti_> # is default char for backspace btw
00:23:31 <kallisti> okay.
00:24:19 <nortti_> stty erase '^H' should fix that
00:24:27 * kallisti comes back to #esoteric, and something exciting is happening.
00:25:03 <kallisti> this is good.
00:25:50 <kallisti> nortti_: is that what you're actually working on, or...?
00:25:57 <nortti_> yes
00:26:13 <nortti_> that and v7-x86 port
00:26:14 <kallisti> do you need... help?
00:26:28 <kallisti> well, "need" is the wrong word.
00:27:20 <nortti_> not really. but I'll tell you if I find sonething interesting to do
00:28:06 <kallisti> it doesn't really need to be interesting. In fact, the less interesting it is the more suited it is, most likely.
00:28:50 * kallisti knowledge of archaic hardware = 0
00:29:20 <nortti_> ok. do you know how to get daemon running on HackEgo
00:30:44 <kallisti> the libc function?
00:31:16 <nortti_> I mean HackEgo has a timeout period for every process
00:31:22 <kallisti> oh.
00:31:32 <kallisti> and you want it to not do that.
00:31:38 <oerjan> i thought HackEgo ran each command in a separate chroot
00:31:48 <kallisti> seperate shell, maybe.
00:31:53 <oerjan> and removed it afterwards...
00:32:05 <nortti_> on separate umlbox
00:32:06 <oerjan> after merging the repositories
00:33:00 <kallisti> I'd have to dive through the source to figure out how to make that possible. Would you want it to be a seperate set of commands from the typical interface?
00:33:22 <nortti_> that sounds good
00:33:59 * oerjan would assume only Gregor could make such a change...
00:34:53 <nortti_> lets create HackEgo2!!
00:35:07 <kallisti> lolno.
00:35:23 <kallisti> I'm actually basically going to do something sort of like that with my current perl bot.
00:35:35 <kallisti> eventually.
00:35:47 <nortti_> your perl bot?
00:35:57 <kallisti> oh yes. I have a bot written in perl.
00:36:10 <kallisti> I should probably put it on github or something.
00:36:56 <kallisti> it's pretty easy to add things to it. you could do all the chroot jail stuff as a plugin.
00:37:01 <nortti_> actually I think I could integrate simh in my own irc bot
00:37:49 <kallisti> ls
00:37:51 <kallisti> er
00:37:52 <kallisti> wrong window.
00:37:58 <kallisti> nortti_: language?
00:38:03 <nortti_> python
00:38:31 <kallisti> yes, should be (fairly) painless.
00:39:26 <nortti_> you can play with it on this channel or on #esoteric-en. #help should show you the start and you can ask more about it from me
00:39:48 <Gregor> Yeah, HackEgo isn't designed for daemons.
00:39:53 <Gregor> I couldn't think of a way to do that safely.
00:39:57 <Gregor> If you have suggestions, lay 'em on me.
00:40:29 <nortti_> oonbotti: do you still work?
00:40:30 <oonbotti> nortti_: Why do you ask that?
00:40:56 <nortti_> ok. my code cleaning didn't break it this time
00:47:43 <kallisti> here's some examples of what a plugin looks like with the perl bot: http://sprunge.us/beGU?perl and http://sprunge.us/aVeD?perl
00:47:56 <kallisti> so you can see if you're interested.
00:48:39 * kallisti is about to switch from using Tie::Persistent to Tie::Hash::MongoDB for plugin persistence, since the former is kind of bad.
00:51:26 <kallisti> of course, you would need to use perl.
00:51:30 <kallisti> which could be a problem.
00:52:50 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
00:53:09 * kallisti spots flaws in URL plugin
00:53:26 <kallisti> not semantic. just needless verbosity.
00:57:25 <comex> `ls
00:57:28 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ foo \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom
00:57:32 <comex> `run ls
00:57:35 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ foo \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom
00:57:42 <comex> `id
00:57:45 <HackEgo> uid=5000 gid=905193
00:57:49 <comex> `id
00:57:52 <HackEgo> uid=5000 gid=552091
00:57:55 <comex> `ps aux
00:57:58 <HackEgo> USER PID %CPU %MEM VSZ RSS TTY STAT START TIME COMMAND \ 0 1 0.0 0.1 912 276 ? S 00:57 0:00 /init \ 0 2 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S 00:57 0:00 [kthreadd] \ 0 3 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S 00:57 0:00 [ksoftirqd/0] \ 0 4 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S 00:57 0:00 [kworker/0:0] \ 0 5 0.0 0.0 0
00:58:05 <Gregor> It works in PM
00:58:23 <comex> :p
01:25:05 -!- nortti_ has quit (Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )).
01:30:52 -!- rolebot has joined.
01:30:57 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
01:30:58 <kallisti> `unload Haskell
01:30:58 <rolebot> Done.
01:31:01 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: unload: not found
01:31:07 <kallisti> oh right.
01:31:09 <kallisti> that will be an issue.
01:32:10 <kallisti> $help
01:32:25 <kallisti> ~help
01:32:45 <kallisti> `perl use Rolebot::Config; $Rolebot::Config::cmd_prefix='~$';
01:32:45 <rolebot> "~\$"
01:32:48 <HackEgo> Can't open perl script "use Rolebot::Config; $Rolebot::Config::cmd_prefix='~$';": No such file or directory
01:32:56 <kallisti> ~help
01:33:22 <kallisti> oh, duh.
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01:34:26 <kallisti> ~help
01:34:26 <rolebot> Commands begin with ~ or $ | Use help <name> to get more help on a specific command or category. | Categories: Admin, Messages, RP | Misc. commands: frink, lastsaid, seen, time, words
01:35:31 <kallisti> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZ5LpwO-An4
01:35:37 <rolebot> HEYYEYAAEYAAAEYAEYAA - YouTube
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03:09:11 <augur> there's a guy on the emp servers
03:09:19 <augur> called oglokoog
03:09:28 <augur> and for a second i thought it might be oklopol
03:19:30 <edwardk> hah
03:20:16 <kallisti> parametric subtyping could be interesting
03:20:43 <kallisti> so a type T x where T x is a subtype of x
03:20:50 <kallisti> does something like this already exist?
03:21:27 <edwardk> kallisti: in other languages, not scala
03:21:42 <kallisti> er, not sure why scala was the default choice.
03:21:50 <edwardk> sorry, thought i was in #scala when i replied
03:21:59 <kallisti> oh, lol. NOPE
03:22:16 <kallisti> you're in the weird part of freenode.
03:22:19 <edwardk> you can do that in c++ with a template for instance
03:22:47 <edwardk> template <class Baseclass, class Renderer> class TextureTemplate : public Baseclass
03:22:49 <kallisti> but C++ templates are just glorified text macros.
03:28:05 <kallisti> which, I guess doesn't really mean much. it's still a "type constructor" of some description.
03:31:36 <kallisti> edwardk: would you recommend learning Scala?
03:31:44 <edwardk> no
03:32:32 <kallisti> I've been looking at branching out from Haskell into hybrid FP languages. I was thinking either Clojure or Scala.
03:32:39 <kallisti> but may O'Caml would be a good choice.
03:32:40 <edwardk> when programming in haskell, when the compiler craps out i know its my code and i can fix it accordingly
03:32:41 <kallisti> *maybe
03:33:07 <edwardk> when programming in scala maybe 1 in 10 times i find a bug its because of a bug in the scala compiler, not my code
03:33:12 <edwardk> screw that
03:33:16 <kallisti> ah. yeah..
03:35:14 <edwardk> i have perfectly well define scala code that causes their compiler to just crap out and emit partial classes thinking they are closed and they have told me they just don't intend to fix it
03:35:28 <kallisti> wonderful.
03:36:15 <kallisti> specs are just figments of your imagination.
03:37:45 <edwardk> scala is probably the most usable strict functional language to me, and that is sad ;)
03:37:59 <kallisti> these days my programming is mostly in Haskell, Perl, or bash. I'm not sure if this is good (I've settled on a set of tools I find applicable to most situations) or bad (I'm getting too comfortable and should dabble in other things for a while)
03:38:17 <edwardk> ocaml is easy to understand how it the resulting code gets built, it plugs into an gcc like toolchain very easily
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05:01:21 <Chaotic_D> I'm searching. ... but I guess I'm trying really hard not to find anything. and succeeding.
05:01:30 <Chaotic_D> Hello.
05:03:30 <Chaotic_D> oh, I see. My mistake. Thanks.
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05:05:51 <edwardk> lolwut
05:12:03 <kallisti> maybe he was looking for #soteric
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07:08:52 <fizzie> I... don't suppose anyone would know offhand whether a European driver's license is a good enough ID for the "you must be able to show ID" requirement Belgian print-it-yourself PDF railway tickets have?
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07:09:38 <olsner> I guess it depends on the railway company what they accept
07:10:19 <fizzie> It's SNCB, the Belgian national railway company.
07:10:29 <fizzie> Maybe it's here in the FAQ. (Maybe it's not.)
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09:39:21 * itidus21 is pondering idly.
09:40:26 <fizzie> Oh no! We should all get to cover.
09:41:18 <itidus21> in order to do anything you have to concede to not do anything else, until you are done
09:43:28 <itidus21> so people set up the category of time wasted. that doing a thing is either wasting time or it isn't
09:44:56 <itidus21> then, there is selecting from among the activities deemed to be not wasting time, so they say, what interests you? what can you do?
09:45:37 <itidus21> with this point of view, time spent watching videos is wasted on a blind man, and time spent listening to music is wasted on a deaf man
09:46:21 <itidus21> but if a man is presented with a foreign text, he could read it if he invested sufficient time in learning the foreign language
09:47:45 <itidus21> and interests are sometimes circumstantial, such as being interested in things you already had some exposure to, or things which play into your biases
09:51:24 <itidus21> but also it is advised by many to not indulge in activities for pleasure which often comes at others pain, or wealth which often comes at others loss, or power which often comes with corruption
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09:52:50 <itidus21> im starting to spin away from reality though
09:52:57 <itidus21> in my posts
09:54:10 <itidus21> anyway, a business specializes in this and concedes to not specialize in that; a shop specializes in selling X, and concedes to not sell Y
09:54:29 <itidus21> a book's pages discuss X and concede to not discuss Y
09:56:24 <itidus21> and a person is at place X and concedes not to be at anyplace Y;
09:56:53 <itidus21> </rant>
09:59:46 <itidus21> maybe my point is that it's wrong to view it as a concession
10:02:11 <itidus21> or not. anyway i'm all done
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11:00:13 <ion> Daywalt Horror: There’s No Such Thing… http://youtu.be/TJytKD2Kt-w
11:00:14 <rolebot> DAYWALT HORROR: There's No Such Thing... - YouTube
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12:35:43 <nortti> do you have any idea why simh pdp11 emulator eats some parts of the starts of input stream if it is from pipe or file?
12:46:01 <fizzie> Maybe it expects that files have some kind of a header? (Or it's just buggy.)
12:46:30 <fizzie> The source would at least know.
12:47:03 <nortti> I mean like pdp11 < input
12:47:45 <nortti> also it chopd off bytes at the start of every line
12:49:21 <fizzie> ./sim_console.c:1135:if (!isatty (fileno (stdin))) /* skip if !tty */
12:49:24 <fizzie> ./sim_console.c:1177:if (!isatty (fileno (stdin))) /* skip if !tty */
12:49:27 <fizzie> ./sim_console.c:1192:if (!isatty (fileno (stdin))) /* skip if !tty */
12:49:30 <fizzie> I'd check those bits first.
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12:50:07 <elliott> Deewiant: What's the UTF-8 byte sequence for the Unicode FULL BLOCK character?
12:50:39 <fizzie> I'm not Deewiant, but I believe 0xE2 0x96 0x88.
12:50:47 <elliott> Thanks.
12:50:49 <elliott> You are good enough.
12:50:52 <elliott> For now.
12:50:55 <fizzie> Yay.
12:51:08 <Deewiant> Yes, that's correct.
12:51:19 <elliott> I was waiting for Deewiant to confirm it.
12:51:21 <elliott> I don't trust fizzie/
12:51:23 <fizzie> Unyay.
12:51:23 <elliott> *fizzie.
12:51:35 <elliott> Okay, thanks.
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12:52:11 <elliott> Say it looks like
12:52:12 <elliott> â~V~Hâ~V~Hâ~V~Hâ~V~Hâ~V~Hâ~V~Hâ
12:52:13 <elliott> instead.
12:52:24 <elliott> Why is that happening? I'm using a UTF-8 terminal all proper and evreything.
12:52:25 <elliott> *everything
12:52:29 <elliott> Maybe this function is messing it up.
12:52:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Maybe it's, like, byte orders and shit
12:53:07 <elliott> Deewiant: Ah, addch is being called on each byte of the UTF-8 thing.
12:53:09 <Deewiant> That first character is U+00E2 so that's latin-1 (or another latin-x) somewhere.
12:53:14 <elliott> How do I make that work? :(
12:53:22 <Deewiant> waddch? :-P
12:53:36 <Deewiant> (I don't know.)
12:53:38 <elliott> waddch appears to be window-addch, not wide-addch.
12:53:44 <Deewiant> Yes, I knew that.
12:54:24 <elliott> Are you sure you know anything any more?
12:54:43 <Deewiant> Try adding A_ALTCHARSET to the characters.
12:55:16 <itidus21> if you can learn from your false axioms, then it's less likely to be a dream
12:55:26 <elliott> Adding howso, Deewiant?
12:55:30 <fizzie> addch ACS_BLOCK instead and hope things work out right?
12:55:33 <Deewiant> elliott: Er, also: are you linking to libncursesw?
12:55:57 <elliott> Deewiant: -lncurses, apparently. I guess I should change that? But I thought those were The Same in 2012.
12:55:59 <Deewiant> elliott: Literally +, though it's probably a high bit mask thing so | is more semantic.
12:56:42 <Deewiant> The libncurses.so here is 44K smaller than the libncursesw.so.
12:57:46 <fizzie> There's an add_wch thing too, but I have no idea when it comes to the whole ncurses/ncursesw mess. It certainly doesn't feel like 2012 if you go in there.
12:57:55 <Deewiant> Yes, I just found that as well.
12:58:23 <Deewiant> You might need to setlocale(), too.
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12:59:04 <elliott> fizzie: What header is ACS_BLOCK in. :(
12:59:45 <fizzie> It's in my 'man addch' which just mentions <curses.h>.
12:59:59 <elliott> thanx
13:00:06 <nortti> hmm. I changed sim_console source so it thinks it is a tty. It still doesn't work
13:00:57 <elliott> fizzie: ACS_BLOCK shows as the digit 0. :/
13:01:40 <elliott> I will try Deewiant's idea.
13:01:49 <elliott> Deewiant: By the way, these characters need to be coloured.
13:01:53 <Deewiant> I'd recommend add_wch first.
13:01:56 <elliott> Will A_ALTCHARSET mess that up?
13:01:57 <elliott> Okay.
13:02:06 <Deewiant> I don't know, I'm just googling stuff.
13:02:39 <elliott> Yes, Deewiant.
13:02:41 <elliott> That is what I need you for.
13:03:06 <elliott> So, add_wch(0x2588), I suppose.
13:03:07 <Deewiant> And grepping, too, if fizzie hadn't answered the ACS_BLOCK header thing.
13:03:14 <elliott> Oh, wait, it's a pointer, what.
13:03:56 <Deewiant> You need to use setcchar() to initialize it, apparently.
13:04:04 <elliott> :/
13:04:11 <Deewiant> That takes a const wchar_t* and turns it into a cchar_t.
13:04:19 <Deewiant> Along with the colour and whatnot.
13:04:20 <elliott> A const wchar_t * and a thousand other parameters.
13:04:21 * itidus21 hunts down whoever designed this.
13:04:38 <elliott> Anyway, uh. Maybe I will just use octothorpes instead.
13:04:42 <Deewiant> The last parameter is evidently reserved and must be NULL.
13:04:51 <Deewiant> Did you do the libncursesw thing?
13:05:37 <elliott> Oh. No. Was the expectation that that would fix the original solution?
13:05:47 <Deewiant> I thought it might.
13:05:54 <Deewiant> Also do the setlocale thing.
13:05:55 <elliott> I will try.
13:06:07 <Deewiant> setlocale(LC_ALL, "") if I recall the incantation correctly.
13:06:58 <elliott> OK, trying.
13:10:01 <fizzie> nortti: I'unno, assuming the POSIX impls it seems to be just read()ing a single byte at a time, which should happen more or less similarly no matter where the input comes from. But it's a bit convoluted code, I'm not sure what that whole KFLAG deal is.
13:10:26 <elliott>
13:10:29 <elliott> Is this the right character?
13:10:48 <fizzie> It looks like a block to me.
13:11:05 <elliott> Thanks Deewiant you are the "best" (best here is used figuratively).
13:11:06 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving").
13:11:17 -!- fizzie has set topic: The Unicode lookup channel | Individuals guilty of ruining this channel: itidus21 (ex officio), oerjan (ex cathedra), olsner (k ex), others (see /names) | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
13:11:21 <Deewiant> And yes, that's the right character.
13:11:55 <Deewiant> Now I wonder what ended up being necessary.
13:11:57 <fizzie> I was going to do that /topic thing right after e first left, but didn't manage before this add-on question.
13:14:26 -!- elliott has joined.
13:14:33 <elliott> Is there a block character like that that isn't quite as tall?
13:14:49 <Deewiant> U+2587 LOWER SEVEN EIGHTHS BLOCK ?
13:15:08 <elliott> Preferably vertically centred? It is okay if this is impossible.
13:16:45 <Deewiant> Can't seem to find one.
13:19:44 <Deewiant> See e.g. http://www.alanwood.net/unicode/block_elements.html
13:19:44 <rolebot> Block Elements – Test for Unicode support in Web browsers
13:19:51 <Deewiant> That's a new one.
13:21:08 <Deewiant> ~help
13:21:09 <rolebot> Commands begin with ~ or $ | Use help <name> to get more help on a specific command or category. | Categories: Messages, RP | Misc. commands: frink, lastsaid, seen, time, words
13:21:18 <Deewiant> ~help Messages
13:21:19 <rolebot> Messages commands: messages, tell
13:21:21 <Deewiant> ~help RP
13:21:21 <rolebot> RP commands: roll, system
13:21:28 <Deewiant> ~help system
13:21:29 <rolebot> Usage: system [<system name>] -- switches the dice roller to another system
13:21:32 <Deewiant> ~help frink
13:21:33 <rolebot> Usage: frink <expression> -- Executes a frink expression. Frink is a powerful calculator program. See http://futureboy.us/frinkdocs/ for more information.
13:21:42 <Deewiant> O kay.
13:21:59 <elliott> What is this thing?
13:22:11 <elliott> Is it really going to spam every time someone pastes a link in the channel?
13:22:36 <elliott> (Amusingly both @dice and `frink already exist...)
13:23:14 <Deewiant> Looks like kallisti put it here about 12 hours ago.
13:23:15 <nortti> > 1+1
13:23:16 <rolebot> 2
13:23:17 <lambdabot> 2
13:23:19 <nortti> :P
13:23:22 <elliott> Niiiice.
13:23:26 <elliott> Have fun with that.
13:23:28 <elliott> Oh well, not my problem.
13:23:30 -!- elliott has left ("Bye!").
13:23:43 -!- Patashu has changed nick to Patashu[Zzz].
13:23:48 <nortti> > "#echo foo"
13:23:49 <rolebot> "#echo foo"
13:23:50 <lambdabot> "#echo foo"
13:23:54 <Phantom_Hoover> http://google.com
13:24:01 <nortti> $echo foo
13:24:36 <nortti> rolebot has no echo commabd?
13:24:45 <Deewiant> ~echo foo
13:24:51 <Deewiant> ~help words
13:24:52 <rolebot> Use words --help for help
13:24:55 <Deewiant> ~words --help
13:24:56 <rolebot> Usage: words [-dhNo] [DATASETS...] [NUMBER_OF_WORDS]
13:24:56 <rolebot> ..options:
13:24:56 <rolebot> .. -l, --list list valid datasets
13:24:56 <rolebot> .. -d, --debug debugging output
13:25:01 <Deewiant> O kay.
13:25:04 <Deewiant> Evidently not.
13:26:40 <nortti> > PutStrLn "foo"
13:26:41 <rolebot> Not in scope: data constructor `PutStrLn'
13:26:41 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `PutStrLn'
13:26:49 <nortti> > putStrLn "foo"
13:26:51 <lambdabot> <IO ()>
13:26:51 <rolebot> <IO ()>
13:27:56 <fizzie> ~words --finnish 10
13:27:57 <rolebot> päristanisimmissä tukoiltakuluvisuu taituminään otsillaajenetukeavaltu saantua ruosi puneinäni innoilisto sammiltasin leimpiensa
13:28:11 <Deewiant> > fix id
13:28:15 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
13:28:17 <rolebot> mueval: ExitFailure 1
13:28:17 <rolebot> ..mueval: Prelude.undefined
13:28:30 <fizzie> What, it does > too?
13:28:35 <Deewiant> > last [1..]
13:28:39 <fizzie> I only noticed that link title thing.
13:28:39 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
13:28:40 <rolebot> mueval: ExitFailure 1
13:28:41 <rolebot> ..mueval: Prelude.undefined
13:29:06 <fizzie> Is that a good idea?
13:29:21 <Deewiant> Nope.
13:29:31 <fizzie> Should I quiet it for the moment, maybe?
13:30:06 <Deewiant> If you want. Alternatively, wait until it's a problem and hope you're online? :-P
13:30:19 <nortti> $tell kallisti so you rolebot really is lambdabot clone
13:30:19 <rolebot> Done.
13:30:32 <Deewiant> $version
13:30:40 <Deewiant> ~version
13:30:54 <nortti> $tell nortti foo
13:30:55 <rolebot> Tell yourself.
13:30:56 <nortti> ok
13:31:05 <nortti> $tell rolebot foo
13:31:06 <rolebot> Cool!
13:31:08 <fizzie> I'm possibly not online terribly well from here, since we need to get all our tourismy stuff done in the evenings.
13:31:16 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +q *!*@h47.28.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net.
13:31:32 <fizzie> I was hoping for a nick-based +q.
13:31:35 <Deewiant> Does that shut up kallisti as well?
13:31:39 <fizzie> Probably.
13:31:46 <fizzie> That's what I get for trusting ChanServ to do the sensible thing.
13:32:02 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -q *!*@h47.28.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net.
13:32:09 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o fizzie.
13:32:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Deewiant, you say that like it's a bad thing.
13:32:23 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: +q rolebot!*@*.
13:32:30 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -o fizzie.
13:32:32 <nortti> > (+) 1 1
13:32:34 <lambdabot> 2
13:32:35 <fizzie> (I feel stupid now.)
13:32:41 <nortti> :P
13:33:12 <fizzie> $tell kallisti make that thing not answer plain '>' but to use some other prefix and I'll -q it.
13:37:23 -!- elliott has joined.
13:37:28 <elliott> Also $ is a supremely bad bot prefix.
13:37:32 <elliott> (And hugging three bot prefices is just rude.)
13:37:52 <elliott> (...as is spewing a line on every single line with a URL in it, but I already covered that.)
13:37:55 <elliott> Wait, why did I rejoin?
13:37:56 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving").
13:38:21 <nortti> is using three prefixes rude if one of them is oonbotti: ?
13:38:33 <fizzie> ?tell lambdabot did you know you're rude too
13:38:34 <lambdabot> Nice try ;)
13:38:52 <fizzie> @tell lambdabot well, you *are*, you have some many prefixen
13:38:52 <lambdabot> Nice try ;)
13:39:22 <nortti> prefixen?
13:39:38 <Deewiant> box, boxen ~ prefix, prefixen
13:39:42 <fizzie> Right.
13:39:51 <nortti> unix, unixen?
13:39:57 <fizzie> s/some/so/ though.
13:40:06 <fizzie> VAX, VAXen.
13:40:35 <nortti> #msg oonbotti can you send messages to yourself? I forget
13:40:35 <oonbotti> Ok
13:42:58 <fizzie> More stupid things: using this leftover workstation that's some old Athlon 64 X2 with one (1) gigabyte of memory (it goes all swappity-swap whenever I flip from MATLAB to Firefox) even though my personal laptop would have (a) more cores, (b) eight times the memory, and (c) a non-awkward keyboard layout. It's just that it's obviously impossible to get that inducted as a member of the local ...
13:43:04 <fizzie> ... networks.
13:43:34 <Deewiant> What do you need the local networks for?
13:43:42 <nortti> and that is still more powerful than any computer I have ever haf
13:43:44 <fizzie> All the data is in there.
13:43:45 <nortti> *had
13:44:14 <Deewiant> Then ssh, and run firefox on your laptop.
13:44:24 <Deewiant> Unless firefox needs the data too.
13:44:50 <fizzie> Well, it needs a network. There's supposed to be some sort of wireless, though.
13:45:05 <Deewiant> Where are you? :-P
13:45:16 <nortti> #quit
13:45:19 <kallisti> hm..
13:45:20 <Deewiant> If at work, there should be 2-3 networks.
13:45:20 <fizzie> http://www.esat.kuleuven.be/ <- here.
13:45:23 <kallisti> oh I thought I disabled Haskell.
13:45:38 <kallisti> ~unload Haskell
13:45:39 <Deewiant> Doesn't everywhere have eduroam?
13:46:09 <fizzie> I haven't ever used eduroam anywhere, I don't even know how to formulate my user name there. I guess I could try it out, though.
13:46:16 <fizzie> There's a local 'campusnet' too, though.
13:46:22 -!- oonbotti has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
13:46:33 <kallisti> Haskell clonage is no longer a thing.
13:46:39 <Deewiant> It was a huge pain, but I got it to work on both my laptop and my phone yesterday.
13:47:01 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o fizzie.
13:47:14 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -q iforgotthebotnam!*@*.
13:47:24 <Deewiant> That wasn't helpful.
13:47:25 <kallisti> lol
13:47:26 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -q rolebot!*@*.
13:47:29 <Deewiant> > 1+1
13:47:31 <lambdabot> 2
13:47:34 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -o fizzie.
13:47:36 <Deewiant> ~load haskell
13:47:36 <rolebot> Insufficient privileges.
13:47:40 <nortti> ~help
13:47:40 <rolebot> Commands begin with ~ or $ | Use help <name> to get more help on a specific command or category. | Categories: Messages, RP | Misc. commands: frink, lastsaid, seen, time, words
13:47:45 <kallisti> ~help
13:47:45 <rolebot> Commands begin with ~ or $ | Use help <name> to get more help on a specific command or category. | Categories: Admin, Messages, RP | Misc. commands: frink, lastsaid, seen, time, words
13:47:52 <Deewiant> ~help Admin
13:47:53 <rolebot> Admin commands: admin, ignore, load, perl, shutdown, unignore, unload
13:47:59 <nortti> ~help lastsaid
13:48:00 <rolebot> Usage: lastsaid [<nick>] -- shows the last thing someone said while identified by services
13:48:04 <fizzie> Well, I had already written the "/mode #esoteric -q" bit.
13:48:16 <nortti> ~lastsaid zzo38
13:48:17 <rolebot> Nothing said by zzo38
13:48:18 <Deewiant> Can't you down-arrow to do something else?
13:48:27 -!- TodPunk has joined.
13:48:37 <fizzie> Deewiant: Yeeeeees, but...
13:48:41 <kallisti> ~frink 50 euros -> dollars_1960
13:48:45 <rolebot> 7.9747344603267845878
13:48:56 <kallisti> I basically just took everything I liked from all the #esoteric bots. :P
13:49:10 <kallisti> $time London
13:49:11 <rolebot> Time in London, United Kingdom (GMT+1): 2012-07-05 14:49
13:49:41 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
13:50:13 -!- oonbotti has joined.
13:50:26 <kallisti> http://example.com/
13:50:26 <rolebot> IANA — Example domains
13:50:31 <nortti> kallisti: why doesn't your bot have echo?
13:50:39 <kallisti> ...why... would it?
13:50:51 <kallisti> `perl "echo"
13:50:58 <kallisti> >_>
13:51:01 <HackEgo> Can't open perl script ""echo"": No such file or directory
13:51:05 <kallisti> lol?
13:51:06 <nortti> because every bot must have echo!
13:51:13 <kallisti> > text "echo"
13:51:14 <lambdabot> echo
13:51:15 <kallisti> >_>
13:51:23 <nortti> @echo foo
13:51:23 <lambdabot> echo; msg:IrcMessage {msgServer = "freenode", msgLBName = "lambdabot", msgPrefix = "nortti!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi", msgCommand = "PRIVMSG", msgParams = ["#esoteric",":@echo foo"]}
13:51:24 <lambdabot> rest:"foo"
13:51:28 <nortti> ^echo foo
13:51:29 <fungot> foo foo
13:51:30 -!- mromanb has joined.
13:51:33 <nortti> `echo foo
13:51:35 <mroman> can it do
13:51:35 <kallisti> nortti: presumably so you can bot loop it?
13:51:35 <HackEgo> foo
13:51:40 <mroman> mromanb: bf_cu -[+>+<[+<]>]>+
13:51:41 <mromanb> Cells used: 4;[0, 1, 2, 3]
13:51:47 <kallisti> no
13:52:08 <nortti> kallisti: no. you should use some kind of ignore list or whitespace/nbsp
13:52:19 <kallisti> `ignore mromanb lambdabot HackEgo
13:52:21 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ignore: not found
13:52:28 <kallisti> $ignore mromanb lambdabot HackEgo
13:52:28 <rolebot> Done.
13:52:31 <kallisti> okay.
13:52:41 <fizzie> http://users.ics.aalto.fi/htkallas/lol.html
13:52:42 <rolebot> ^ul (http://users.ics.tkk.fi/lol.html)S
13:52:42 <fungot> http://users.ics.tkk.fi/lol.html
13:52:44 <rolebot> 404 Not Found
13:52:50 <fizzie> Whoops, I typoed the URL.
13:52:57 <kallisti> $ignore fungot
13:52:57 <rolebot> Done.
13:52:58 <fungot> kallisti: that's the scheme ( no pun intended
13:52:58 <nortti> #echo !echo foo
13:52:59 <oonbotti> !echo foo
13:53:01 <EgoBot> foo
13:53:05 <nortti> #echo !echo #echo foo
13:53:06 <oonbotti> !echo #echo foo
13:53:06 <EgoBot> ​#echo foo
13:53:14 <fizzie> Damnable typos.
13:53:27 <kallisti> lol
13:53:34 <nortti> #echo ~words 8
13:53:35 <oonbotti> ~words 8
13:53:35 <rolebot> condannons care cepta imr bira man airt vdharaud
13:54:11 <fizzie> Anyway, the whole URL title thing is kinda noisy. I don't care enough to mind, but I'd vote nay if it came to a vote.
13:54:16 <fizzie> ^ignore
13:54:17 <fungot> ^(EgoBot|HackEgo|toBogE|Sparkbot|optbot|lambdabot|oonbotti)!
13:54:30 <kallisti> fizzie: I can turn it off. or, you know, just have the bot leave, since it doesn't need to be here.
13:54:31 <fizzie> ^ignore ^(EgoBot|HackEgo|toBogE|Sparkbot|optbot|lambdabot|oonbotti|rolebot)!
13:54:32 <fungot> OK.
13:54:46 <fizzie> Well, if someone else complains.
13:54:48 <kallisti> it does squelch itself if the title contains absolutely no new information.
13:54:52 <kallisti> http://google.com/
13:55:18 <kallisti> which is often.
13:56:27 <fizzie> Also, does someone have a guess what "Meat tree with cauliflower" is? (It's on the menu here.)
13:57:24 <fizzie> Google just finds Snopes articles about meat trees and whatnot.
13:57:34 <kallisti> what the hell is a meat tree.
13:57:41 <kallisti> ......
13:57:44 <kallisti> why did I ask that.
13:57:47 <fizzie> A tree that bears meat instead of fruit.
13:57:53 <fizzie> I think.
13:58:02 <Deewiant> But does it meet bears?
13:58:42 <kallisti> `ignore Egobot toBogE Sparkbot optBot oonbotti
13:58:44 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ignore: not found
13:58:47 <kallisti> bah
13:58:50 <kallisti> $ignore Egobot toBogE Sparkbot optBot oonbotti
13:58:50 <rolebot> Done.
13:58:52 <kallisti> the old prefix was `
13:58:59 <fizzie> It's "Boomstammetje met bloemkool" in the local lingo, if that helps. (Google translate from Dutch just says "Trunk Metje with cauliflower" about that...)
14:00:12 <fizzie> Image search with that does find some consistent results, though.
14:00:24 <fizzie> Some sort of a round thing.
14:01:02 -!- mromanb has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
14:01:20 -!- mromanb has joined.
14:02:04 <mroman> mromanb: stlang fn \o/{100 >}{2 *}2 -> efn
14:02:04 <myndzi> |
14:02:04 -!- mromanb has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
14:02:04 <myndzi> /`\
14:02:14 <mroman> ok. it's still buggy :)
14:03:27 -!- itidus20 has joined.
14:04:54 <fizzie> Deewiant: Re eduroam, I tried it once with the phone but there was something about certificates. Anyway, what was the format for the user name? account@aalto.fi?
14:05:08 <Deewiant> account@org.aalto.fi
14:05:16 <Deewiant> At least, that's the one that works for me.
14:05:25 <Deewiant> Depending on what OS's instructions you look at there are three options.
14:05:55 -!- itidus21 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
14:06:24 <fizzie> I think I saw "now @aalto.fi" somewhere.
14:06:27 <Deewiant> The certificate to use changed in March, and the one it changed to didn't work for me (not "Thawte root CA" which I guessed mapped to Thawte Primary Root CA; what worked was Thawte Premium Server CA)
14:06:30 <Deewiant> Yes, I saw that too.
14:06:45 -!- oonbotti has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
14:06:51 <Deewiant> What works for me is the org.aalto.fi plus a certificate that isn't mentioned anywhere in the instructions.
14:06:55 <Deewiant> Works both on the phone and the laptop.
14:07:17 <fizzie> I think I'll try this local eduroam with the phone.
14:07:29 <fizzie> Though it asks for EAP type (PEAP/TLS/TTLS).
14:07:33 <Deewiant> PEAP.
14:07:52 <fizzie> And I guess EAP MSCHAPv2 over EAP GTC, at least in Aalto.
14:07:56 <Deewiant> (I found the correct certificate by observing wpa_cli and then using strace to see what certificate the access point sends.)
14:07:59 <fizzie> Not all eduroams are set up the same way, though.
14:08:08 <Deewiant> True.
14:08:16 -!- copumpkin has joined.
14:08:18 <coppro> eduroam is great
14:08:18 <Deewiant> At Aalto it's PEAP and MSCHAPv2.
14:08:26 <fizzie> At some point, some of them were using some sort of weird 802.1x+WEP combo.
14:08:26 <coppro> it's that at UW as well
14:09:43 -!- mromanb has joined.
14:09:46 -!- itidus20 has changed nick to itidus21.
14:09:47 <mroman> mromanb: stlang fn \o/{100 >}{2 *}2 -> efn
14:09:48 <mromanb> [mroman] [128.0]
14:09:48 <myndzi> |
14:09:48 <myndzi> >\
14:09:58 <mroman> ah, there we go.
14:10:12 <fizzie> "osso-wlan (3.0.20) unstable; urgency=low
14:10:13 <fizzie> * Fixed: NB#159194 - Add support for WEP cipher in WPA mode to support Eduroam, fixes the regression
14:10:16 <fizzie> -- Jin Qing <ext-qing.1.jin@nokia.com> Fri, 2 Jul 2010 10:34:40 +0300"
14:10:22 <fizzie> Sounds such a weird thing to do.
14:11:31 <mroman> mromanb: stlang M 10 13 avg \
14:11:31 <mromanb> [mroman] Your program sucks!
14:11:49 <mroman> hm :(
14:12:13 <mroman> mromanb: stlang M 10 13 | avg \
14:12:13 <mromanb> [mroman] [11.5]
14:12:18 <nortti> osso-wlan?
14:12:42 <mroman> mromanb: stlang M 10 13 .|^A \
14:12:43 <mromanb> [mroman] None
14:13:15 <mroman> mromanb: stlang M 10 13 | ^A \
14:13:15 <mromanb> [mroman] [11.5]
14:13:49 <fizzie> nortti: N900 has all kinds of 'osso-this' and 'osso-that' and 'whatever-osso' packages; AFAIK comes from the OSSO (Open Source Software Operations) organization at Nokia.
14:14:07 <fizzie> "The OSSO organization (Open Source Software Operations) goal was to bring Nokia’s first Open Source and Linux based mobile terminal on the market and build an open source platform to support future product development."
14:14:31 <fizzie> From the days of those Internet Tablets.
14:15:09 <nortti> oh those. I have 770 and n810
14:15:31 <nortti> thinking about it weren't there a osso-xterm
14:15:37 <mroman> mromanb: stlang M [] 1 : 2 : 3 : 4 : {?2} /f \
14:15:37 <fizzie> Yes.
14:15:37 <mromanb> [mroman] Your program sucks!
14:15:45 <fizzie> It's funny how they keep putting those NB#xxxxxx internal bug-tracker bug ids everywhere, but of course it's not publicly available anywhere.
14:15:48 <mroman> Ok. I unlearned how to code in it :D
14:16:44 -!- mromanb has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
14:16:51 <fizzie> osso-xterm, the terminal that can't do dark grey.
14:17:15 <fizzie> (Well, technically speaking it's the libvte4 package's fault.)
14:18:17 -!- oonbotti has joined.
14:18:17 <fizzie> https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=7164 -- the long, hard life of a bug report.
14:19:08 -!- mromanb has joined.
14:19:11 <fizzie> "SOFTWARE VERSION: 1.2009.42-11 -- Updating version field: Still an issue in 5.0/(2.2009.51-1) -- Updating version field again, is still broken in 10.2010.19-1 --"
14:20:00 <nortti> is there any development in maemo fremantle?
14:20:20 <fizzie> There's that Community SSU thing.
14:20:31 <fizzie> Which is where that one-line patch finally ended in.
14:20:58 <nortti> yay
14:21:25 <mroman> mromanb: stlang M {?2} [] 1 : 2 : 3 : 4 : ./f/S(s # \
14:21:26 <mromanb> [mroman] ['6', '.', '0']
14:21:52 <nortti> mromanb: help
14:21:52 <mromanb> [nortti] Only you can understand you. I don't.
14:22:02 <nortti> mromanb: foo
14:22:03 <mromanb> [nortti] Only you can understand you. I don't.
14:22:04 <mroman> He doesn't know how to help ;)
14:22:12 <nortti> mromanb: info
14:22:12 <mromanb> [nortti] Only you can understand you. I don't.
14:22:15 <fizzie> He's beyond help, it almost seems.
14:22:15 <nortti> mromanb: man
14:22:16 <mromanb> [nortti] Only you can understand you. I don't.
14:22:19 <mroman> There is only bf_cu (brainfuck_cell usage)
14:22:25 <mroman> and stlang (evaluate stlang)
14:22:32 <mroman> mromanb: bf_cu +>
14:22:33 <mromanb> Cells used: 2;[0, 1]
14:22:36 <mroman> mromanb: bf_cu +><<<
14:22:37 <mromanb> Cells used: 4;[0, 1, 230, 229]
14:23:04 <mroman> mromanb: bf_cu +[>+]
14:23:05 <mromanb> Timeout!
14:23:44 <mroman> mromanb: stlang M ./r(i1=={{.$?0}{.1(i@}.0U}{.0(i@}? \
14:23:44 <mromanb> [mroman] Your program sucks!
14:23:57 <mroman> readline is not available of course :)
14:24:31 <fizzie> mromanb: bf_cu ++++++[->++++++<]>[[->+<]>-]
14:24:32 <mromanb> Cells used: 38;[0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37]
14:25:36 <fizzie> mromanb: bf_cu -[>+]
14:25:37 <mromanb> Cells used: 231;[0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 1
14:25:54 <mroman> 231 is max cells :)
14:26:00 <fizzie> So it seems.
14:26:23 <mroman> mromanb: stlang M '0 .(i1=={{.$?0}{.1(i@}.0U}{.0(i@}? \
14:26:23 <mromanb> [mroman] []
14:26:27 <mroman> mromanb: stlang M '1 .(i1=={{.$?0}{.1(i@}.0U}{.0(i@}? \
14:27:05 <mromanb> [mroman] Your program sucks!
14:27:07 -!- mromanb has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
14:27:56 <kallisti> `load Echo
14:27:59 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: load: not found
14:28:02 <kallisti> $load Echo
14:28:02 <rolebot> Echo failed to load.
14:28:16 <kallisti> $load Echo
14:28:16 <rolebot> Done.
14:28:25 <kallisti> $echo Behold, advanced IRC bot technology!
14:28:25 <rolebot> Behold, advanced IRC bot technology!
14:28:53 <nortti> $echo #echo !echo foo
14:28:54 <rolebot> #echo !echo foo
14:28:54 <oonbotti> !echo foo
14:28:55 <EgoBot> foo
14:29:11 <Gregor> AND YET
14:29:13 <Gregor> !echo #echo foo
14:29:14 <EgoBot> ​#echo foo
14:29:37 <kallisti> #echo $echo #echo
14:29:37 <oonbotti> $echo #echo
14:29:41 <kallisti> ALSO YET
14:34:17 <kallisti> $hlurp
14:34:20 <kallisti> $hlep
14:34:21 <rolebot> Commands begin with ~ or $ | Use help <name> to get more help on a specific command or category. | Categories: Admin, Messages, RP | Misc. commands: echo, frink, lastsaid, seen, time, words
14:34:24 <kallisti> more lambdabot clonage
14:36:03 -!- mromanb has joined.
14:36:08 <mroman> mromanb: help
14:36:08 <mromanb> bf_cu (Brainfuck cell usage); stlang (Evaluate stlang)
14:36:08 <mromanb> bf_cu: MAX_CELLS := 231; stlang : MAX_CALLS := 20000
14:36:41 <kallisti> bf_cu
14:36:45 <kallisti> mromanb: bf_cu
14:36:45 <mromanb> [kallisti] Only you can understand you. I don't.
14:37:16 <mroman> He needs a program, of course ;)
14:37:24 <kallisti> what is "brainfuck cell usage"?
14:37:37 <mroman> Well, cell usage of brainfuck programs?
14:37:46 <kallisti> what is cell usage
14:37:51 <kallisti> mromanb: bf_cu ,[.,]
14:37:51 <mromanb> Cells used: 1;[0]
14:37:52 <mroman> How many cells it uses.
14:37:54 <kallisti> oh
14:37:57 <kallisti> ...yes.
14:38:15 <kallisti> mromanb: bf_cu +[>+]
14:38:16 <mromanb> Timeout!
14:38:54 <mroman> mromanb: stlang Cc 0 fn con .0(i \ cC M '0 N \
14:38:54 <mromanb> [mroman] [<steval.StObject instance at 0x9073bac>]
14:39:05 <mroman> huh.
14:39:05 <kallisti> mromanb: bf_cu +++++++++++[->+]
14:39:05 <mromanb> Timeout!
14:39:12 <kallisti> mromanb: bf_cu +++++++++++[->+<]
14:39:12 <mromanb> Cells used: 2;[0, 1]
14:39:27 <kallisti> mromanb: bf_cu +++++++++++[->+>+<]
14:39:27 <mromanb> Timeout!
14:39:30 <kallisti> mromanb: bf_cu +++++++++++[->+>+<<]
14:39:31 <mromanb> Cells used: 3;[0, 1, 2]
14:40:08 <mroman> mromanb: stlang Cc 0 fn con .0(i 0 8 \ cC M '0 N \
14:40:08 <mromanb> [mroman] [<steval.StObject instance at 0x9073bcc>]
14:40:16 <mroman> Hm.
14:40:22 <mroman> Object functions have their own stack o_O
14:40:33 <mroman> I forget.
14:40:42 <kallisti> mromanb: stlang 2 2 +
14:40:42 <mromanb> [kallisti] None
14:40:55 <kallisti> pssssh
14:41:17 <kallisti> what kind of production-ready real world esolang doesn't have a sandbox mode?
14:42:03 <kallisti> so frink wasn't working until I removed ulimits from it. Any idea why that would be?
14:42:20 <kallisti> $load Frink
14:42:20 <rolebot> Done.
14:42:22 <kallisti> $frink 2 + 2
14:42:39 <kallisti> /home/adam/bin/frink: line 30: 10284 Killed $java $flags -classpath $jar frink.gui.FrinkStarter "$@"
14:42:45 <kallisti> I guess it's exceeding the ulimits?
14:42:53 <kallisti> that sounds unlikely.
14:43:08 <mroman> mromanb: stlang Cc 0 fn con ##DEBUG_ON## .0(i 0 8 \ cC M '0 N \
14:43:09 <mromanb> [mroman] [<steval.StObject instance at 0x9073c2c>]
14:43:20 -!- rolebot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
14:44:01 -!- edwardk has joined.
14:44:16 <mroman> Looks like a bug to me o_O
14:44:20 -!- rolebot has joined.
14:44:32 <kallisti> mromanb: where? what?
14:44:32 <mromanb> [kallisti] Only you can understand you. I don't.
14:44:54 <kallisti> mromanb: stlang Cc 0 fn con ##DEBUG_ON## .0(i 0 8 \ cC M '0 N \
14:44:54 <rolebot> kallisti: You have 2 messages. Type ~messages to read them.
14:44:54 <mromanb> [kallisti] [<steval.StObject instance at 0x9073b8c>]
14:45:47 -!- mromanb has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
14:45:55 <mroman> object functions should return values as well
14:46:18 <Gregor> kallisti: It's Java, of course it's exceeding its ulimits.
14:46:40 <kallisti> my $max_memory = 100000; #in kilobytes
14:46:43 <kallisti> my $max_time = 5; #in seconds
14:46:45 <kallisti> ......
14:47:05 <Gregor> Java will immediately claim ~1G
14:47:15 <Gregor> This is how GC works.
14:47:17 <kallisti> it hasn't in the past.
14:47:18 <mroman> oh.
14:47:21 <mroman> it's not a bug
14:47:30 <mroman> constructors can't return values :)
14:47:31 <Gregor> kallisti: Yes, it has.
14:47:53 <kallisti> I mean.. I've used this same setup for a while and I haven't had problems.
14:48:02 <Gregor> $frink 3 + 3
14:48:04 <rolebot> 6
14:48:08 <Gregor> $frink 2 + 2
14:48:14 <Gregor> Or maybe it's nondet X-D
14:48:29 <kallisti> `load Frink
14:48:32 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: load: not found
14:48:33 <kallisti> bah
14:48:39 <kallisti> $laod Frink
14:48:40 <rolebot> Done.
14:48:47 -!- mromanb has joined.
14:48:49 <kallisti> $fronk 2 + 2
14:48:55 <kallisti> I set it to 2 GBs
14:49:06 <Gregor> Frink frank fronk.
14:49:28 <mroman> mromanb: stlang Cc 0 fn con \ fn foo .0 \ cC M '0 N foo \
14:49:29 <mromanb> [mroman] [<steval.StObject instance at 0x9f78bcc>, 0.0, <steval.StObject instance at 0x9f78bcc>]
14:49:29 <kallisti> it's entirely possible that my code is broken and I don't know what I'm doing.
14:50:15 <kallisti> http://sprunge.us/XVYb?perl
14:50:32 <Gregor> $frink 2 + 2
14:50:34 <rolebot> 4
14:50:36 <Gregor> kallisti: FRINK FRANK FRONK
14:50:47 <kallisti> $frank 500 euros -> dollars_1945
14:50:58 <kallisti> y u so slow.
14:51:02 <kallisti> probably ulimited
14:51:10 <mroman> mromanb: stlang Cc 0 fn con \ fn foo .0 \ cC M '0 N foo $ <> $ @ \
14:51:10 <mromanb> [mroman] ['<stdout> 0.0']
14:51:18 <kallisti> 0.0
14:52:08 <kallisti> Gregor: it's even doing the Java server thing to speed up load time.
14:52:24 <Gregor> $frink 500 euros -> dollars_1945
14:52:28 <kallisti> $road Frink
14:52:29 <rolebot> Perhaps you meant: load roll
14:52:33 <kallisti> $load Frink
14:52:33 <rolebot> Done.
14:52:35 <Gregor> $frink 500 euros -> dollars_1945
14:52:38 <rolebot> 48.51380458194634815
14:52:40 <kallisti> I adjusted the max time
14:52:43 <kallisti> to 8 seconds
14:52:44 <kallisti> from 5
14:52:46 <Gregor> $frink 500 euros -> dollars_1945
14:52:49 <mroman> mromanb: stlang Cc 0 fn con \ fn foo .0 \ cC M '0 N foo $ <> $ @ # ;l @\
14:52:49 <mromanb> [mroman] Your program sucks!
14:52:50 <rolebot> 48.527902878402193068
14:52:58 <mroman> mromanb: stlang Cc 0 fn con \ fn foo .0 \ cC M '0 N foo $ <> $ @ # ;l @ \
14:52:59 <mromanb> [mroman] ['<', 's', 't', 'd', 'o', 'u', 't', '>', ' ', '0', '.', "<stdout> '0'"]
14:53:55 <kallisti> $frink 1 million euros -> dollars_1945
14:53:59 <rolebot> 97055.805756804386137
14:54:03 <kallisti> hurray inflation
14:54:26 <kallisti> I think it also has historic great british currency but I don't remember the names
14:54:36 <mroman> mromanb: stlang M 2 2 + \
14:54:37 <mromanb> [mroman] [4.0]
14:54:44 <mroman> btw ;). You need a main function.
14:54:56 <mroman> mromanb: stlang fn main 2 2 + efn
14:54:57 <mromanb> [mroman] [4.0]
14:55:01 <kallisti> mroman: stlang M 2 2 + \
14:55:04 <itidus21> $frink 100 aud -> 100 usd
14:55:07 <rolebot> Warning: undefined symbol "aud".
14:55:07 <rolebot> ..Warning: undefined symbol "usd".
14:55:14 <itidus21> ok tough one to word
14:55:16 <kallisti> $frink ?AUD
14:55:18 <rolebot> [AUD, Saudi_Arabia_Riyal, Saudi_Arabia_currency, Saudi_Arabia]
14:55:19 <mroman> mromanb: M 2 2 + ! \
14:55:19 <mromanb> [mroman] Only you can understand you. I don't.
14:55:23 <kallisti> itidus21: no it's just case sensitive
14:55:24 <mroman> mromanb: stlang M 2 2 + ! \
14:55:25 <mromanb> [mroman] [24]
14:55:34 <kallisti> $frink 100 AUD -> USD
14:55:37 <rolebot> 102.869
14:55:48 <kallisti> $frink 100 AUD -> 100 USD
14:55:51 <rolebot> 1.02869
14:56:08 <itidus21> $frink 100 AUD -> CAD
14:56:09 <kallisti> 100 AUD -> 100 USD is just... AUD -> USD
14:56:11 <rolebot> 104.25530621056194853
14:56:22 <itidus21> kallisti: yeah that was me not thinking
14:56:41 <kallisti> mroman: stlang M 2 2 4 + + \
14:56:43 <itidus21> $frink Australia
14:56:46 <rolebot> 1.02866 dollar (currency)
14:56:52 <mroman> mromanb: stlang M 2 2 4 + + \
14:56:53 <mromanb> [mroman] [8.0]
14:57:05 <kallisti> mroman: was that network lag or program lag? :P
14:57:08 <itidus21> yay for .au
14:57:14 <mroman> kallisti: You have to use mromanb:
14:57:17 <mroman> not mroman:
14:57:18 <mroman> ;)
14:57:29 <kallisti> change your name.
14:57:35 <kallisti> my tab complete is infallible.
14:57:54 <mroman> mromanb: stlang class Foo prop bar 'Hello eprop eclass M 'Foo new &bar \
14:57:54 <mromanb> [mroman] None
14:57:57 <mroman> damn.
14:58:06 <mroman> mromanb: stlang class Foo prop bar 'Hello eprop eclass M 'Foo new \
14:58:06 <mromanb> [mroman] None
14:58:12 <mroman> hm.
14:58:19 <mroman> mromanb: stlang cls Foo prop bar 'Hello eprop ecls M 'Foo new \
14:58:20 <mromanb> [mroman] Your program sucks!
14:58:22 <itidus21> $frink 100 AUD -> euro
14:58:25 <rolebot> 83.020299447112474272
14:58:35 <itidus21> $frink 100 USD -> euro
14:58:35 <mroman> oh
14:58:38 <rolebot> 80.713507405464304451
14:58:44 <mroman> prop does not work that way.
14:59:04 -!- Taneb has joined.
14:59:06 <itidus21> $frink 100 AUD -> GBP
14:59:09 <rolebot> 66.238908992569507939
14:59:12 <Taneb> Hello
14:59:13 <itidus21> bastards
14:59:17 <kallisti> so it's Haskell: OO stack-based edition? (wait that doesn't make any sense)
14:59:17 <mroman> I can't send newlines over IRC sadly :(
14:59:25 <mroman> or can I!!!
14:59:28 -!- mromanb has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
14:59:41 <Taneb> itidus21, GBP is the currency with the most valuable primary unit IN THE WORLD
14:59:47 <Taneb> Ever since Malta joined the Euro
14:59:58 <Taneb> Hang on
15:00:01 <Taneb> rolebot?
15:00:01 <kallisti> stlang is a lot like glass.
15:00:08 <kallisti> that's mine.
15:00:08 -!- stlangbot has joined.
15:00:12 <Taneb> :)
15:00:16 <Taneb> stlangbot!?
15:00:25 <itidus21> mroman: stlang 2 2 4 + + \
15:00:37 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang class Foo prop bar 'Hello #NL# eclass M 'Foo new \
15:00:38 <stlangbot> [mroman] None
15:00:45 <itidus21> i kid. i kid.
15:00:50 <kallisti> originally it was intended to facillitate playing tabletop games over IRC, but that quickly died out and now it's mostly a lambdabot clone with some stuff from
15:00:56 <kallisti> #esoteric bots that I wanted to use in other channels.
15:00:56 <oonbotti> Nothing here
15:00:57 -!- stlangbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
15:01:20 -!- stlangbot has joined.
15:01:22 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang class Foo prop bar 'Hello #NL# eclass M 'Foo new \
15:01:23 <stlangbot> [mroman] [<steval.StObject instance at 0x9dbb30c>]
15:01:25 <mroman> ah
15:01:26 <mroman> better.
15:01:30 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang class Foo prop bar 'Hello #NL# eclass M 'Foo new &bar \
15:01:31 <stlangbot> [mroman] [<steval.StObject instance at 0x9dbb1ec>, 'Hello']
15:01:36 <kallisti> mroman: what's the implemntation language?
15:01:41 <mroman> Python ;)
15:01:47 <Taneb> There's loads of bots here
15:01:52 <itidus21> Malta sounds tasty.. like malt
15:01:57 <Taneb> Is clog a bot?
15:02:01 <kallisti> yes.
15:02:13 <mroman> I don't know Glass.
15:02:32 <kallisti> mroman: it's another stack based OO esolang.
15:02:39 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang class Foo prop bar 'Hello #NL# eclass class X eclass inherit X Foo M 'X new &bar \
15:02:40 <stlangbot> [mroman] [<steval.StObject instance at 0x9dbb12c>, 'Hello']
15:02:42 <Taneb> Okay, there's clog, fungot, glogbot, HackEgo, half of myndzi, oonbotti, rolebot, stlangbot...
15:02:42 <kallisti> not functional though.
15:02:43 <fungot> Taneb: the extra performance helped it find better paths down a tree of characters, treats all 01 chars as bits and prints out the message.
15:02:52 <Taneb> That's 7.5 bots!
15:02:59 <Taneb> > 63/7.5
15:03:00 <lambdabot> 8.4
15:03:05 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang fn \o/{100 >}{2 *}2 -> @ efn
15:03:06 <stlangbot> [mroman] ['<stdout> 128.0']
15:03:06 <myndzi> |
15:03:06 <myndzi> /<
15:03:18 <Taneb> Hehe
15:03:19 <mroman> Mine is not really functional too.
15:03:20 <Taneb> > 63/7.5
15:03:22 <lambdabot> 8.4
15:03:26 <mroman> But you can use lambda expressions
15:03:29 <Taneb> > 7.5/63
15:03:30 <nortti> yeah. 8.4 percent of us are bots
15:03:30 <lambdabot> 0.11904761904761904
15:03:34 <Taneb> FINALLY GOT THAT RIGHT
15:03:43 <Taneb> We're Almost 12% bots
15:03:54 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M {'0 @} call \
15:03:55 <stlangbot> [mroman] ["<stdout> '0'"]
15:03:55 <kallisti> !glass {M[m(_o)O!"Hello World!"(_o)o.?]}
15:03:55 <EgoBot> Hello World!
15:04:17 <kallisti> stlangbot: to do anything you have to instantiate a class.
15:04:17 <stlangbot> [kallisti] Only you can understand you. I don't.
15:04:21 <kallisti> er mroman
15:04:24 <nortti> mroman: what is the name and command prefix of your bot?
15:04:37 <mroman> nortti: stlangbot
15:04:39 <mroman> stlangbot: help
15:04:40 <stlangbot> bf_cu (Brainfuck cell usage); stlang (Evaluate stlang)
15:04:40 <stlangbot> bf_cu: MAX_CELLS := 231; stlang : MAX_CALLS := 20000
15:05:03 <mroman> kallisti: Stlang doesn't require that @instantiate objects.
15:05:07 <Gregor> `echo I am the official bot of #esoteric, and thou shall have no bot before me.
15:05:09 <mroman> but you can ;)
15:05:09 <HackEgo> I am the official bot of #esoteric, and thou shall have no bot before me.
15:05:14 <kallisti> nortti's bot loop addiction progresses in severity..
15:05:21 <nortti> :P no
15:05:32 <Taneb> With all these bots, there's got to be an awful botloop somewhere...
15:05:41 <nortti> I can creare one bot botloop any time I want
15:05:42 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang class A eclass class B eclass inherit A B inherit B A M 'A new @ B' new @ \
15:05:43 <stlangbot> [mroman] None
15:05:45 <itidus21> Currently, Malta's major resources are limestone, a favourable geographic location and a strong export market of washed up comedians.
15:05:52 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang class A eclass class B eclass inherit A B inherit B A M 'A new @ 'B new @ \
15:05:52 <stlangbot> [mroman] ['<stdout> <steval.StObject instance at 0x9dc2e6c>', '<stdout> <steval.StObject instance at 0x9dc2e6c>']
15:06:04 <Taneb> nortti, create one using four bots, one of them twice
15:06:10 <nortti> hmm
15:06:26 <mroman> Objects are very weird in Stlang
15:06:37 <mroman> new instantiates the object on top of the stack
15:06:45 <mroman> and if you use a function that is not in global scope
15:06:52 <mroman> it checks if the top object on the stack is an object
15:06:55 <kallisti> !glass {M[m(_o)O!(_a)A!22(_a)a.?(_o)(on).?]}
15:06:56 <EgoBot> 0
15:07:01 <mroman> and looks in the objects scope if such a function exists.
15:07:21 <kallisti> !glass {M[m(_o)O!(_a)A!<2><2>(_a)a.?(_o)(on).?]}
15:07:22 <EgoBot> 4
15:07:29 <kallisti> that's a "print 2 + 2" program
15:07:37 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang class A fn A 0 \ eclass class B fn B 1 \ eclass M 'A new A \
15:07:38 <stlangbot> [mroman] [<steval.StObject instance at 0x9dc2e6c>, 0.0, <steval.StObject instance at 0x9dc2e6c>]
15:07:39 <kallisti> you have to instantiate the arithmetic and output classes
15:08:07 <mroman> and after every object call the object remains on top of the stack :D
15:08:26 <mroman> kallisti: Can you define classes in Glass?
15:08:29 <kallisti> yes
15:08:34 <mroman> with inheritance?
15:08:36 <kallisti> {M...} is the main class
15:08:40 <kallisti> don't believe so.
15:08:47 <kallisti> [m...] is the main method
15:09:01 <kallisti> for names that are larger than one character you have to enclose them in parens.
15:09:17 <kallisti> thus (_o) and (_a)
15:10:11 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang class Arith fn add $ + \ eclass M 'Arith new 2 3 ^^ add \
15:10:11 <stlangbot> [mroman] Your program sucks!
15:10:15 <kallisti> (_o)O! is "drop the variable _o on the stack, drop the variable O on the stack, instantiate an instance of O in the variable _o"
15:10:23 <itidus21> give or take arbitrarily, glass also supports multiple inheritance, virtual functions, templates, and operator overloading
15:10:35 <kallisti> which pops both values off the stack
15:10:48 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang class Arith fn add + \ eclass M 'Arith new 2 3 ^^ add \
15:10:49 <stlangbot> [mroman] Your program sucks!
15:10:50 <kallisti> itidus21: no it doesn't
15:11:11 <kallisti> you're not allowed to lie.
15:11:11 <itidus21> well you just have to take everything i said away
15:11:23 <itidus21> hence "give or take arbitrarily"
15:11:39 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang class Arith fn add + \ eclass M 'Arith new 2 3 \
15:11:40 <stlangbot> [mroman] [<steval.StObject instance at 0x9dc2eec>, 2.0, 3.0]
15:11:45 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang class Arith fn add + \ eclass M 'Arith new 2 3 ^^ \
15:11:46 <stlangbot> [mroman] Your program sucks!
15:11:50 <mroman> what the.
15:11:51 <kallisti> mroman: Glass is intended to be obnoxious and annoying, whereas I think you're actually going for usability with stlang.
15:12:00 <kallisti> ??
15:12:35 <kallisti> or at least, I assume that's what Gregor had in mind.
15:12:50 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang class Arith fn add + \ eclass M 'Arith new 2 3 that add \
15:12:51 <stlangbot> [mroman] Your program sucks!
15:12:53 <kallisti> unless he really just loves extreme OO with postfix notation.
15:12:54 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang class Arith fn add + \ eclass M 'Arith new 2 3 that \
15:12:55 <stlangbot> [mroman] [2.0, 3.0, <steval.StObject instance at 0x9dc2e8c>]
15:12:59 <itidus21> im trying to point out it would be funny if glass did infact feature things c++ prides itself on
15:13:03 <nortti> stlang seems kinda like underload. esoteric but usable stack based language
15:13:04 <Gregor> Glass is not intended to be a good language :)
15:13:07 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang class Arith fn add $ + \ eclass M 'Arith new 2 3 that add $ \
15:13:07 <stlangbot> [mroman] Your program sucks!
15:13:10 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang class Arith fn add $ + \ eclass M 'Arith new 2 3 that add \
15:13:11 <stlangbot> [mroman] Your program sucks!
15:13:23 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang class Arith fn add $ + \ eclass M ##DEBUG_ON## 'Arith new 2 3 that add \
15:13:24 <stlangbot> [mroman] Your program sucks!
15:13:36 <kallisti> Gregor: it has struck a chord in my heartplaces for some reason. :>
15:13:45 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang class Arith fn add + \ eclass M ##DEBUG_ON## 'Arith new 2 3 that add \
15:13:46 <stlangbot> [mroman] Your program sucks!
15:13:52 <itidus21> i like the human quality of stlang's interpreter feedback
15:14:16 <kallisti> mroman: no efn
15:14:18 <kallisti> it looks like
15:14:27 <mroman> a single \ is efn
15:14:31 <kallisti> ah
15:14:40 <kallisti> I thought that was print to stdout
15:14:40 <mroman> the problem is add
15:14:45 <kallisti> based on the earlier 2 + 2 code
15:14:45 <mroman> @ is print to stdout
15:14:51 <mroman> M is 'fn main'
15:15:01 <kallisti> right, so anything returned by main is printed
15:15:02 <kallisti> got it.
15:15:03 <mroman> M \ is fn main efn
15:15:12 <mroman> stlangbot returns the stack.
15:15:34 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang class Arith fn add 5 \ eclass M ##DEBUG_ON## 'Arith new that add \
15:15:35 <stlangbot> [mroman] Your program sucks!
15:15:43 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang class Arith fn add 5 \ eclass M ##DEBUG_ON## 'Arith new add \
15:15:44 <stlangbot> [mroman] Your program sucks!
15:15:47 <kallisti> stlangbot: stlang M 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 \
15:15:47 <stlangbot> [kallisti] [2.0, 2.0, 2.0, 2.0, 2.0, 2.0, 2.0, 2.0, 2.0, 2.0]
15:15:56 <kallisti> ewwwwww Python
15:16:05 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang class Arith fn foo 5 \ eclass M ##DEBUG_ON## 'Arith new foo \
15:16:06 <stlangbot> [mroman] [<steval.StObject instance at 0x9dc2f2c>, 5.0, <steval.StObject instance at 0x9dc2f2c>]
15:16:16 <kallisti> mroman: your stlang output has a Python smell. :P
15:16:19 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang class Arith fn foo $ + \ eclass M ##DEBUG_ON## 'Arith new 2 3 that foo $ \
15:16:20 <stlangbot> [mroman] [5.0]
15:16:23 <mroman> ha!
15:16:27 <mroman> it worked.
15:16:34 <mroman> apparently add is already defined in the global scope.
15:16:44 <kallisti> ...yes?
15:16:49 <kallisti> it's a synonym for + I thought
15:16:57 <mroman> + is a synonym for +
15:17:00 <mroman> eh
15:17:04 <mroman> + is a synonym for add.
15:17:33 <mroman> And different functions have different synonyms based on context.
15:17:42 <mroman> In golfing mode the synonyms are different :)
15:17:43 <mroman> like
15:17:51 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M 5 3 / \
15:17:51 <stlangbot> [mroman] [1.6666666666666667]
15:17:53 <kallisti> mroman: you should add perl-like contexts into this language somehow
15:17:54 <kallisti> for great fun
15:17:56 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M 5 3 .// \
15:17:57 <stlangbot> [mroman] [1.6666666666666667]
15:18:17 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M 5 3 .///v \
15:18:18 <stlangbot> [mroman] [1.2909944487358056]
15:18:21 <mroman> vs
15:18:26 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M 5 3 / /v \
15:18:27 <stlangbot> [mroman] [1.2909944487358056]
15:18:35 <mroman> . enters the golfing mode
15:18:47 <mroman> which allows to chain function without whitespace
15:19:10 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M 'Hello '; [.] \
15:19:11 <stlangbot> [mroman] ['H;e;l;l;o;']
15:19:32 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M 'Hello '; .[.l \
15:19:33 <stlangbot> [mroman] [10]
15:19:56 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M 'Hello '; .[.l=! \
15:19:56 <stlangbot> [mroman] Your program sucks!
15:20:14 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M 'Hello '; .[.l(f \
15:20:14 <stlangbot> [mroman] [10.0]
15:20:18 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M 'Hello '; .[.l(i \
15:20:19 <stlangbot> [mroman] [10]
15:20:21 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M 'Hello '; .[.l(s \
15:20:21 <stlangbot> [mroman] ['10']
15:20:55 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M {zZ}'Hello m \
15:20:56 <stlangbot> [mroman] ['HELLO']
15:21:01 <kallisti> what is ?
15:21:16 <mroman> it's an if
15:21:52 <kallisti> why is there an if in the pattern matching example
15:22:06 <mroman> oh
15:22:10 <mroman> '?' is an if
15:22:12 <mroman> ?1 is true
15:22:13 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: . ? @ v
15:22:19 <kallisti> oh okay
15:22:30 <kallisti> how would I match anything?
15:22:30 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M ?1 \
15:22:30 <stlangbot> [mroman] [True]
15:22:33 <kallisti> just define a regular function?
15:22:56 <mroman> You can't match 'anything'
15:23:27 <kallisti> so there's no "match 0, match everything else" pattern matching?
15:23:35 <mroman> stlangbot: fn empty:[] ?1 efn fn empty ?0 efn M [] @ \
15:23:36 <stlangbot> [mroman] Only you can understand you. I don't.
15:23:42 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang fn empty:[] ?1 efn fn empty ?0 efn M [] @ \
15:23:43 <stlangbot> [mroman] Your program sucks!
15:23:53 <kallisti> right
15:23:57 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang fn empty:[] ?1 efn fn empty ?0 efn
15:23:57 <stlangbot> [mroman] Your program sucks!
15:24:05 <kallisti> so you can match everything else by having a function without a : thingy
15:24:11 <mroman> kallisti: yes.
15:24:16 <kallisti> which is what I meant
15:24:19 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang fn empty:0 ?1 efn fn empty ?0 efn M 0 @ \
15:24:20 <stlangbot> [mroman] Your program sucks!
15:24:26 <mroman> but I'm not sure about the syntax right now :)
15:24:39 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang fn empty:0#NL# ?1 efn fn empty ?0 efn M 0 @ \
15:24:40 <stlangbot> [mroman] Your program sucks!
15:25:09 <kallisti> mroman: stack is global right?
15:25:23 -!- Vorpal has joined.
15:25:30 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang fn isZero:0 ?1 efn fn isZero ?0 efn M 0 @ \
15:25:30 <stlangbot> [mroman] Your program sucks!
15:25:37 <mroman> kallisti: Yes.
15:25:44 <mroman> Stack is global.
15:25:55 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang fn isZero:0 ?1 M 0 @ \
15:25:56 <stlangbot> [mroman] Your program sucks!
15:26:02 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang fn isZero ?1 efn M 0 @ \
15:26:03 <stlangbot> [mroman] ['<stdout> 0.0']
15:26:06 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang fn isZero:0 ?1 efn M 0 @ \
15:26:06 <stlangbot> [mroman] Your program sucks!
15:26:15 <mroman> it might be that pattern matching requires a newline
15:26:23 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang fn isZero:0#NL# ?1 efn M 0 @ \
15:26:24 <stlangbot> [mroman] Your program sucks!
15:27:10 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang fn isZero:0 ?1 efn M 0 @ \
15:27:10 <stlangbot> [mroman] Your program sucks!
15:27:11 <mroman> ah no
15:27:17 <mroman> you need to define the one without pattern first.
15:27:32 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang fn empty ?0 efn fn empty:[] ?1 efn M [] \
15:27:33 <stlangbot> [mroman] [[]]
15:27:41 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang fn empty ?0 efn fn empty:[] ?1 efn M [] empty \
15:27:42 <stlangbot> [mroman] [[], True]
15:27:45 <kallisti> mromanb: stlang fn fib:0 0 \ fn ++ 1 - fib 2 - fib + \ M 5 fib \
15:27:48 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang fn empty ?0 efn fn empty:[] ?1 efn M 'a empty \
15:27:48 <stlangbot> [mroman] ['a', False]
15:28:00 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang stlang fn fib:0 0 \ fn ++ 1 - fib 2 - fib + \ M 5 fib \
15:28:01 <stlangbot> [mroman] Your program sucks!
15:28:03 <kallisti> stlangbot: stlang fn fib:0 0 \ fn ++ 1 - fib 2 - fib + \ M 5 fib \
15:28:03 <stlangbot> [kallisti] Your program sucks!
15:28:10 <mroman> kallisti: You need to define fib first.
15:28:21 <mroman> fn foo:0 efn fn foo efn is illegal
15:28:25 <kallisti> weird
15:28:28 <mroman> fn foo efn fn foo:0 efn is legal.
15:28:33 <kallisti> YOU MEAN TO SAY THIS IS NOT HASKELL?
15:29:15 <kallisti> stlangbot: stlang fn fib ++ 1 - fib 2 - fib + \ fn fib:0 0 \ M 5 fib \
15:29:38 <stlangbot> [kallisti] Your program sucks!
15:30:04 <kallisti> ah I see
15:30:13 <kallisti> I'm not sure how to do that recursively with a global stack
15:31:14 <kallisti> mroman: how do I push elements onto the stack by index?
15:31:31 <mroman> kallisti: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Stlang#Others
15:31:35 <mroman> there is a fib version ;)
15:31:48 <kallisti> NOPE
15:31:49 <kallisti> CHEATING
15:31:50 <mroman> and I have to go now, sorry.
15:32:02 <mroman> kallisti: There is a function 'top'
15:32:06 <mroman> which lets you do that.
15:33:30 <kallisti> stlangbot: stlang fn fib:1 1 \ fib:0 0 \ fn ++ 1 - fib <> 2 - fib + \ M 5 fib \
15:33:30 <stlangbot> [kallisti] Your program sucks!
15:34:07 -!- edwardk has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
15:34:56 <kallisti> stlangbot: stlang fn fib:1.0 1 \ fib:0.0 0 \ fn ++ 1 - fib <> 2 - fib + \ M 5 fib \
15:34:57 <stlangbot> [kallisti] Your program sucks!
15:35:02 <kallisti> stlangbot: stlang fn fib:1.0 1 \ fib:0.0 0 \ fn fib ++ 1 - fib <> 2 - fib + \ M 5 fib \
15:35:02 <stlangbot> [kallisti] Your program sucks!
15:36:06 <kallisti> the " is unexplained in the docs
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15:48:18 <Taneb> Possibility is a monad, definition is a comonad
15:49:31 <Taneb> Disjunction is a monad, conjunction is a comonad
15:50:44 <kallisti> all things are one under the cofree monad free comonad in outer space.
15:52:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Has kallisti turned off that URL title spewer?
15:52:59 <Phantom_Hoover> http://example.com
15:53:00 <rolebot> IANA — Example domains
15:53:35 <Phantom_Hoover> kallisti, please turn that off.
15:55:21 <Taneb> google.com
15:55:28 <Taneb> http://google.com
15:55:34 <Taneb> :?
15:56:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Doesn't work with Google.
15:56:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Unfortunately, it does work with most other things.
15:56:38 <Taneb> http://www.vandoorn.talktalk.net/esoteric
15:56:40 <rolebot> Taneb's Esolang Page!
16:13:46 <kallisti> http://facebook.com/
16:14:01 <Phantom_Hoover> http://example.com
16:14:47 <rolebot> IANA — Example domains
16:15:10 <Phantom_Hoover> kallisti, seriously, turn that off, it's useless and annoying.
16:15:36 <Taneb> Note to self: when introducing others to the joy of the collatz conjecture, don't start with 27
16:15:58 <kallisti> I'm in the process of making it less annoying
16:16:08 <Phantom_Hoover> How.
16:16:08 <kallisti> and more useful.
16:16:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Again, how.
16:16:23 <kallisti> well, before it would check each word in the title and see if it's already in the URL. if they're all in the URL, it ignores it.
16:16:27 <kallisti> now I've added a list of stop words.
16:16:29 <kallisti> that it also ignores
16:17:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Nope, that's still annoying and not very useful.
16:17:02 <Gregor> http://purdue.edu/
16:17:03 <rolebot> Purdue University
16:17:09 <kallisti> lol
16:17:33 <Gregor> http://weirdfetishisticporn.com/
16:17:39 <Gregor> ...
16:17:40 <Gregor> :(
16:17:44 <kallisti> I must now click
16:17:49 <Taneb> RESIST
16:18:08 <Gregor> http://mylittleclopfic.com/
16:18:21 <Gregor> Damn it rolebot, work with me here.
16:21:03 <kallisti> http://facebook/
16:21:07 <kallisti> http://facebook.com/
16:21:16 <kallisti> it blocks facebook now because all of the other title stuff is just garbage.
16:21:22 <kallisti> http://youtube.com/
16:21:30 <Gregor> http://127.0.0.1/
16:21:34 <kallisti> also it's really slow.
16:21:36 <kallisti> now
16:21:38 <Gregor> lol
16:21:47 <kallisti> hurray perl
16:21:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Yay, for a while you can pretend it's turned off.
16:22:09 <rolebot> YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.
16:22:13 <kallisti> >_>
16:22:21 <kallisti> however, youtube has "broadcast"
16:22:25 <kallisti> which is NEW INFORMATION YOU DID NOT PREVIOUSLY KNOW
16:22:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, so it helpfully filters out any titles which are *identical* to the URL?
16:22:56 <Phantom_Hoover> THAT IS FAR BETTER
16:23:21 <kallisti> it also ignores the stop words. which I got from here http://www.webconfs.com/stop-words.php/
16:23:25 <Gregor> http://www.google.com/search?q=how+to+build+a+bomb+terrorism+allah+akhbar+all+glory+to+osama+hello+fbi
16:23:47 <kallisti> I have no idea why it's taking so long to traverse the stop word list...
16:23:54 <kallisti> it's not very big
16:24:19 <Phantom_Hoover> It doesn't want to be a part of this idiocy.
16:25:31 * kallisti likes to see whether he should click on something or not.
16:25:50 <kallisti> by having one program do it instead of all of our browsers
16:25:53 <kallisti> we are actually saving the environment
16:25:57 <kallisti> by using less energy.
16:26:14 <Phantom_Hoover> And so you think that making a bot to announce the page title in the channel whenever anyone posts a URL is going to help?
16:26:25 <kallisti> the environment? of course.
16:26:32 <kallisti> anyone who disagrees does not care about mother earth.
16:26:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Is going to be anything but a waste of time?
16:27:06 <kallisti> well, I'm not /making/ it