00:20:08 <itidus20> the problem with porting is that you don't do any design
00:22:33 <itidus20> the word design here is really terrible, but i mean it as, for instance, cat is a design
00:23:27 <itidus20> and then someone can be asked to port cat
00:27:31 <itidus20> ang.wikipedia.org = nglisc :-s
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01:04:55 <itidus20> it's dubious how many blizzard games have anglo-saxon wikipedia pages
01:12:30 <itidus20> ah.. the one guy created 9 pages about blizzard, and also created the category
01:18:38 <itidus20> humm.. ok he created the video games category too, so it's all very boring
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01:46:54 <quintopia> elliott: what kind of food. dont have money.
01:49:22 * oerjan hands quintopia some delicious poison for free
01:50:09 <quintopia> poison? i have decided that edible is more important than good
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03:02:52 <itidus20> and you are to drink the milk from a ceramic mug, and rip off pieces of the bread with your bare hands
03:03:15 * oerjan recalls when he used to browse the reddit frontpage and r/all, there were sometimes posts about how to get enough food with very little money
03:03:45 <itidus20> quintopia's critereon are pretty lousy
03:04:53 <elliott> they're a bit nutty, I think :P
03:05:05 <oerjan> was about to link it :P
03:05:11 <itidus20> focus on optimizing sources of nutrients such as protein and carbohydrates, as well as vitamins and minerals
03:05:32 <itidus20> edible and good is for the rich
03:05:42 <oerjan> http://www.reddit.com/r/Frugal/comments/u13qa/we_rfrugal_week_1_frugal_food/ was linked in the sidebar
03:07:28 <itidus20> "Some people value time over money, and others money over time" hmm thats one way of putting it, another way of putting it is that employed people have less time and more money, and vice versa
03:07:44 <oerjan> from there you can find http://www.reddit.com/r/budgetfood
03:08:02 <itidus20> except some people on welfare have a good life and some people on welfare do not
03:08:56 <itidus20> and, the reason for _that_ is that some people on welfare have parasites around them
03:09:08 <oerjan> elliott: although i wasn't originally thinking so much about r/frugal as about "help i only have $NN for the next 3 weeks how can i survive?"
03:09:18 <oerjan> (approximate title there)
03:10:34 <itidus20> in other words, valuing time over money is more of a function of circumstances than an exercize in free will
03:12:07 <itidus20> what i really mean is that, some poeple have more time than money, and others have more money than time
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03:12:35 <itidus20> and they "value" that which they have less of
03:16:42 <elliott> o'reilly have published a book on dwarf fortress
03:16:45 <elliott> ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
03:17:12 <elliott> http://shop.oreilly.com/product/0636920022565.do
03:17:18 <monqy> whhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat
03:17:49 <elliott> but i think i'm going to have to buy it so i can point to the turning point in civilisation in the future when we all live in houses made out of cellophane and breathe glass and mate with antennae
03:18:09 <elliott> @ask Phantom_Hoover http://shop.oreilly.com/product/0636920022565.do ???????????????
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03:26:14 <itidus20> i found this while looking up that http://i37.fastpic.ru/big/2012/0530/c2/04e811128cee4d89747f9621a5756fc2.jpeg
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03:44:24 <tswett> elliott: your name is now Robert J! Lake. As such, you are no longer my baby nephew.
03:45:19 <tswett> Okay, so. This language in which all computation is carried out via rounding errors.
03:46:08 <tswett> I think a program should consists of a list of instructions that are looped through forever. The program will have access to an arbitrary but finite number of variables each capable of holding an arbitrary non-negative integer.
03:46:29 <tswett> Every variable is initialized to 1.
03:47:38 <tswett> There are three instructions: "add Y to X", "multiply X by 2^(Y/3) and round", and "divide X by 2^(Y/3) and round".
03:49:25 <tswett> It might be Turing-complete. I have no idea how one would go about proving it either way.
03:50:03 <tswett> Also, the name of a variable must consist entirely of numerals, and the first of these cannot be 0.
03:53:21 <tswett> I guess we'll make that "round down", to avoid ambiguity.
03:56:23 <tswett> Here's a program, I guess: http://pastie.org/4005760
03:56:56 <tswett> After n > 0 iterations, 1 has the value 1, 2 has the value 3, 3 has the value 2^n, and 4 has the value 2^(n+1) - 1. I think.
03:59:08 <elliott> For the benefit of future generations:
04:10:14 <tswett> Okay, I don't think multiplication by 2^(1/3) is actually a useful operation.
04:10:37 <tswett> So, let's do the same, except these are the operations:
04:10:58 <tswett> "subtract Y from X", "calculate the number of groups of order X".
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05:22:46 <lambdabot> shachaf asked 2d 1h 9m 16s ago: hi
05:22:46 <lambdabot> Taneb asked 10h 53m 45s ago: What does fair do?
05:26:06 <zzo38> Taneb: Read the document for MonadLogic for some information about >>- it is a fair junction or something like that; fair ["Hello", "World"] = "HWeolrllod"; fair ["Hello", "World", "12345"] = "HWe1lol2or3l4d5"
05:26:22 <zzo38> So it is something like join but using a different order
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06:09:08 <itidus20> FORTRAN's tragic fate has been its wide acceptance. APL is a mistake. students that have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration.
06:09:29 <itidus20> LISP has assisted a number of our most gifted fellow humans in thinking previously impossible thoughts.
06:12:37 <itidus20> The use of COBOL cripples the mind
06:13:36 <shachaf> elliott: You know Control.Concurrent.Spawn?
06:13:58 <shachaf> What's the way you're supposed to use "pool"?
06:14:17 <shachaf> I was thinking of do { runOne <- pool limit; parMapIO_ (runOne . foo) [1..n] }, but that still spawns n threads most of which do nothing at any point in time, which seems like it might not be strictly necessary.
06:14:27 <elliott> you realise kmc is in here right
06:14:38 <shachaf> Yes, but he's not responding.
06:14:43 <shachaf> (In the other channel, at least.)
06:14:44 <elliott> shachaf: anyway that sounds correct to me
06:15:03 <shachaf> But spawning a million threads is annoying when most of them are just waiting on the QSem.
06:15:08 <itidus20> full PL/1, with its growth characteristics of a dangerous tumor, could turn out to be a fatal disease.
06:15:10 <shachaf> In particular it means that my program is slow and takes 100% CPU
06:15:42 <elliott> shachaf: does runOne do that?
06:26:09 <shachaf> How pool is supposed to be used.
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08:19:18 <HackEgo> 815) <Sgeo> hack and back? <Patashu> works on anything much slower than you <monqy> at the cost of: guilt, hating yourself, me sending you the message "hi" <Patashu> am I also forbidden to cast mephitic cloud and cblink <monqy> i will also send you "hi" if you: kite excessively, use mephitic cloud, -yes \ 829) <monqy> imagine hitting a brick wall really really hard but you don't do anything to it. instead you explode.
08:19:32 <HackEgo> 829) <monqy> imagine hitting a brick wall really really hard but you don't do anything to it. instead you explode. <monqy> that's what it's like for people who hit you
08:29:45 <shachaf> monqy: "i quoted you in another channel"
08:29:53 <monqy> oh no what happened
08:30:50 <monqy> do you have logs of what happened it's my quote I want to know!!
08:31:32 <shachaf> 01:19 <shachaf> <monqy> imagine hitting a brick wall really really hard but you don't do anything to it. instead you explode. <monqy> that's what it's like for people who hit you
08:31:36 <shachaf> 01:19 <shachaf> I want something like that, except for sending SIGHUP instead of hitting
08:31:47 <shachaf> Because my process is getting a SIGHUP and I don't know why. :-(
08:32:21 <itidus20> but, they .. apparently lost interest
08:33:03 <itidus20> should i feel rejected or relieved
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09:43:15 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
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09:52:29 <fizzie> Wasn't it some sort of ridiculous size.
09:52:32 <fizzie> I think many of them were.
09:53:31 <nortti> I only got HD that has over 512MB 6 years ago
09:59:20 <fizzie> For the Linux versions, Amnesia: The Dark Descent is "1.1 GB", Bastion "1019 MB", and Psychonauts "4.1 GB".
09:59:40 <fizzie> LIMBO and that Sword & Sorcery thing are rather smaller.
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10:04:38 <fizzie> > let 1 + 1 = 3 in 1 + 1
10:05:28 <fizzie> No, you didn't give it a complete expression.
10:05:38 <fizzie> > let 1 = 2 in 1 -- sadly, it is still just 1
10:06:01 <labbekak> i cant express myself completely if i cant set 1 to 2
10:09:39 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `(a -> b -> a) -> a -> [b] -> a'
10:11:40 <lambdabot> *Exception: <interactive>:3:4-8: Non-exhaustive patterns in function +
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10:12:22 <lambdabot> *Exception: <interactive>:3:4-8: Non-exhaustive patterns in function +
10:12:43 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Num.Num GHC.Types.Char)
10:14:27 <itidus20> don't mind me. i don't know haskell and i'm extremely bored
10:14:42 -!- cswords__ has joined.
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10:15:06 <labbekak> > map (chr.(+1).ord) "Same here"
10:15:54 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Enum.Enum (GHC.Types.Char -> GHC.Types.Char))
10:16:19 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Enum.Enum (GHC.Types.Char -> GHC.Types.Char))
10:16:28 <fizzie> > succ . succ . succ $ 'a' -- keep on sucking.
10:17:01 <fizzie> Deewiant: So efficient.
10:17:19 <labbekak> > let twice f = f . f in twice succ 'a'
10:18:40 <labbekak> > let power f n = f . f . f .. n in power succ 10 'a'
10:18:41 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `..'
10:19:57 <lambdabot> [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28...
10:20:14 <fizzie> > succ (maxBound :: Char) -- TO OUTER LIMITS ... AND BEYOND
10:20:15 <lambdabot> *Exception: Prelude.Enum.Char.succ: bad argument
10:20:26 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `Haskell'Not in scope: data constructor `Cur...
10:20:40 <Deewiant> > chr . (+1) . ord $ '\x10ffff'
10:20:41 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `am'Not in scope: `awesome'
10:20:43 <lambdabot> *Exception: Prelude.chr: bad argument: 1114112
10:21:55 <fizzie> Deewiant: \x110000 is the name of the $deity.
10:22:31 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at chara...
10:22:51 <labbekak> > let power f n r = if n == 1 then r else power f (n-1) (f . r)
10:22:52 <lambdabot> not an expression: `let power f n r = if n == 1 then r else power f (n-1) (...
10:23:18 <labbekak> > let power f n r = if n == 1 then r else power f (n-1) (f . r) in power succ 10 () 'a'
10:23:19 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `f a' against inferred type `()'
10:23:30 <labbekak> > let power f n r = if n == 1 then r else power f (n-1) (f . r) in power succ 10 succ 'a'
10:23:35 <Deewiant> > unsafeCoerce 0x110000 :: Char
10:24:55 <labbekak> > map (chr . (ord 'A' + ) . ord) "Albert"
10:25:24 <fizzie> Deewiant: Haskell is just not good enough to express it.
10:25:53 <lambdabot> [2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,2...
10:26:13 <labbekak> this lambdabot is a clever fella
10:26:33 <qfr> What language is that
10:26:39 <qfr> I'm just kidding
10:27:27 <labbekak> > let "hes just kidding" = "ok" in "hes just kidding"
10:28:13 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `='
10:28:32 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `='
10:31:48 <labbekak> I wish I had a lambdabot, I would take her to the park.
10:32:01 <fizzie> fungot: What do you think of your fellow bot?
10:32:01 <fungot> fizzie: dd does binary doesn't it? :) fnord je? :) taken me all night to watch this show!"
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11:22:13 <_niels> > reverse "trebla olleh"
11:22:55 <labbekak> > (succ . reverse) "slein olleh"
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11:22:56 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Enum.Enum [GHC.Types.Char])
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11:26:17 <fizzie> Taneb: You've been talked to.
11:26:38 <fizzie> 08:26 <zzo38> Taneb: Read the document for MonadLogic for some information about >>- it is a fair junction or something like that; fair ["Hello", "World"] = "HWeolrllod"; fair ["Hello", "World", "12345"] = "HWe1lol2or3l4d5"
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11:26:43 <fizzie> 08:26 <zzo38> So it is something like join but using a different order
11:27:01 <fizzie> The regular sort of talked to, not via the bot.
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11:38:43 <Taneb> Thanks, past zzo38!
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11:44:11 <fizzie> The once and future zzo38. (I don't recall what that references.)
11:44:30 <Taneb> Arthurian mythology
11:44:37 <Taneb> King Arthur, the once and future king
11:44:55 <fizzie> Yes, I think so too, though I believe via something else.
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12:04:59 <Taneb> It was a short story by someone, I think
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13:07:25 <lambdabot> boily: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
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15:58:15 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 7 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
16:02:03 <Gregor> @tell elliott And now you have 8.
16:02:39 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
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18:28:40 <Taneb> I've just realised I am unable to program in C
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18:38:39 <ais523> Taneb: do you see this as a problem?
18:38:54 <Taneb> I see it as a mild annoyance
18:39:17 <Taneb> It means I'm not going to win the IOCCC any time soon
18:40:35 <Gregor> #1 reason to program in C, obviously.
18:45:43 <Sgeo__> I kind of hate VXJunkies, because it traps people who think it's real
18:46:06 <kmc> what is it
18:46:22 <Sgeo__> http://www.reddit.com/r/VXJunkies
18:46:26 <kmc> does not help
18:47:10 <Sgeo__> http://www.reddit.com/r/VXJunkies/comments/rt7pa/new_to_vx_help/
18:47:26 <elliott> this just in: Sgeo__ "hates jokes; they're misleading"
18:47:52 <kmc> so this is just
18:47:54 <kmc> fake science?
18:48:02 <Sgeo__> I more hate not actually explaining the joke to people who don't get it and think it's real
18:48:20 <Sgeo__> kmc, fake ... some sort of principle machines
18:48:39 <Sgeo__> The FAQ http://www.reddit.com/r/VXJunkies/comments/ewihz/
18:50:17 <ais523> hmm, time for an "am I crazy or not" question: reducing the number of bugs Splint finds in my code by finding false positives and patching Splint to detect them correctly
18:50:20 <Sgeo__> Sent two messages to people in that subreddit who may have thought it was real
18:50:59 <Sgeo__> ais523, would these be general use patches or would their general use result in false negatives?
18:51:22 <ais523> they're meant to be general use, although (obviously) might be buggy
18:51:44 <ais523> amazingly, I managed to get two false positives in the same line
18:52:04 <nortti_> yay. got staticaly linked sash to work.
18:53:16 <ais523> /* at file scope */ typedef /*@dependent@*/ int* dependentint_p; static dependent_int global_array_of_dependent_ints[10]; /*@dependent@*/ int *foo(void) {return global_array_of_dependent_ints[5];}
18:53:46 <ais523> the bugs were a) it was checking to see if the global was owned, rather than owned /or/ dependent; b) it was checking the annotation on the array itself, rather than the array's elements
18:54:09 <ais523> meanwhile, I have replaced a bunch of for loops with do-while loops because Splint is a little braindead with respect to loops
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18:55:12 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ?welcome: not found
18:55:23 <HackEgo> Wallabee: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
18:55:56 <ais523> hmm, dreadnaught is now beating everything but counterpoke? ouch
18:56:02 <ais523> looks like I made counterpoke just in time
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19:10:10 <Sgeo__> ais523, Wallabee is probably Gregor
19:10:52 * ais523 vaguely accuses itidus20 of being Gregor
19:11:08 <Sgeo__> Well, Gregor is a wallabee
19:11:24 <Gregor> My species is still spelled properly.
19:18:13 <kmc> @remember mrwright Some people, when faced with a problem, say "I know, I'll use transfinite induction over the ordinals!" Now they have a class-sized collection of problems.
19:18:13 <lambdabot> It is forever etched in my memory.
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19:41:56 <david_werecat> I just learnt that parameter optimization is VERY slow...
19:42:41 <Taneb> Gregor: CRAZY SUGGESTION: !bf_joust_test
19:43:49 <david_werecat> I'm using an offline compiled version of EgoJoust to run the tests, although it would be nice to have a server function to do the same.
19:45:47 <david_werecat> Hmmm... even after half an hour my optimizer still hasn't found a better configuration.
19:46:54 <Taneb> Maybe you've reached the optimum
19:47:30 <david_werecat> I doubt it, the version up right now is barely optimized at all.
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19:54:42 <ais523> hmm, egojoust is quite slow, isn't it?
19:55:06 <elliott> hackego doesn't use egojoust
19:55:11 <elliott> and egojoust is very buggy
19:55:21 <elliott> http://git.zem.fi/chainlance
19:55:49 <ais523> chainlance is an entirely viable option
19:56:13 <elliott> especially since it's what egobot actually uses :P
19:57:30 <tswett> Would anyone mind if I rambled inanely for a while?
19:59:17 <david_werecat> !bfjoust dreadnought http://tinypaste.com/2ae75e0f/save.php?hash=32765885219c22e699c610e7ac7d6d28
19:59:21 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_dreadnought: 0.0
20:00:04 <tswett> A part of your soul ties you to the next world, or maybe to the last. This world is just illusion, trying to change you.
20:00:50 <david_werecat> !bfjoust dreadnought http://tinypaste.com/d65f4df7/save.php?hash=f803e31d09c9d25051a6cff3bc4ea235
20:00:53 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_dreadnought: 66.8
20:01:59 <david_werecat> !bfjoust dreadnought http://tinypaste.com/89f64fa2/save.php?hash=2f8298684e97f172e414d2a18789d7af
20:02:04 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_dreadnought: 70.9
20:02:24 -!- MSleep has changed nick to MDude.
20:02:39 <tswett> What is the "next world"? Presumably it's where you go when you die, or something like that. Does everyone go to the same "next world", or are there different ones for different people?
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20:03:57 <quintopia> tswett: not every goes to the next world, but you certainly cant get there if you die
20:04:14 <quintopia> you have to beat world 1 to get to world 2
20:04:31 <quintopia> you might can skip some worlds if you find a warp room
20:05:28 <tswett> Are all of the worlds just illusion, or only some of them?
20:05:40 <Taneb> quintopia, you start with free lives, though, and get another live every hundred coins or when you eat a special mushroom
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20:07:42 <quintopia> Taneb: you're not reallydead until all lives are gone. just set back a bit. the karma cycle ofrebirth goes on.
20:24:18 <ais523> so, the whole UEFI thing is causing a row again
20:24:56 <ais523> because although on x86 (and not ARM) the bootloaders are meant to be open to new user-specified keys, you have to muck around in the BIOS to enable them
20:25:08 <ais523> so Microsoft offered to sign Fedora's bootloader with Microsoft's key
20:25:13 <ais523> and there's a huge row about whether Fedora are selling out or not
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20:26:09 <ais523> any opinons here? it's a pretty interesting mess
20:26:22 <kmc> i'm starting to think the openness of the PC platform is a historical accident which will not be repated
20:26:35 <Sgeo__> kmc, well, now I'm depressed
20:27:34 <ais523> what's your opinion on the UEFI thing?
20:28:33 <ais523> <ais523> so Microsoft offered to sign Fedora's bootloader with Microsoft's key
20:29:29 <ais523> (not using pronouns because nobody would parse it correctly if I did)
20:30:00 <elliott> right, I read the blog post thing
20:30:32 <ais523> no, Fedora had to pay $99 (once), but to Verisign not Microsoft
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20:32:57 <ais523> hmm, I actually think it's Microsoft genuinely trying to help
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20:33:51 <kmc> at least we can take comfort in the fact that computer security is terrible
20:34:03 <kmc> and so even in the future when it's necessary to root your own laptop, it will be possible to do so
20:34:45 <kmc> i mean this "secure boot" thing is pretty silly; are they really going to remove every feature and bug in the Linux kernel which allows root to execute code as ring0?
20:36:51 <pikhq_> ais523: Yes, it's just pretty damned shitty.
20:38:24 <pikhq_> It doesn't improve security notably, it just makes things fairly inconvenient.
20:38:58 <pikhq_> (if an attacker is at the point where they could mess with the bootloader, they already own your box.)
20:39:26 <kmc> yeah, that's the point...
20:39:38 <kmc> this is why you want the bootloader to be cryptographically signed, in theory
20:39:53 <pikhq_> Except they own the box *even without touching the bootloader*.
20:39:59 <kmc> signed against a private key which is stored in a TPM chip or such
20:40:04 <kmc> pikhq_: how so
20:40:19 <kmc> presumably you have an encrypted disk
20:40:22 <kmc> if you care about this stuff
20:40:41 <pikhq_> Okay, true, then you're good if it's someone with physical access to your box.
20:40:45 <kmc> these discussions always devolve into "well, they *COULD* break out an ion deposition cannon and screw with the transistors on your CPU"
20:40:55 <nortti_> ELKS is pretty awesome. It also shows how much bloat new apps have. I got a out of memory error when trying to start vi because I tried to start it under ash that was running on top of sash instead of directly from sash
20:40:56 <kmc> missing the point that security is about relative threat and countermeasure costs
20:40:59 <kmc> and there are no absolutes
20:41:13 <pikhq_> If it's a remote attacker, yeah, your OS install is utterly suspect, even without the ability to mess with the bootloader.
20:41:20 <kmc> nortti_: nobody cares that vim uses 2 megs of ram instead of 1
20:41:22 <kmc> go back to 1985
20:42:01 <pikhq_> kmc: 'Scuse me, I'm offended that zlib has crc32 in 100k instead of 100 bytes.
20:42:16 <kmc> yes all this "bloated" software, so horrible that we're optimizing for the very expensive human time instead of very cheap computer resources
20:42:37 <pikhq_> (note that to get 100k crc32 you have to pessimize human time as well as computer resources)
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20:42:53 <nortti_> kmc: I meant vi. Vim wouldn't even start (64kB limit for .text)
20:43:05 <kmc> pikhq_: that sounds like actually shit code
20:43:19 <kmc> whereas the usual whining about "bloat" is about fine code which omg doesn't use every cycle to maximum efficiency!!!
20:43:31 <pikhq_> kmc: Yes. When I talk about "bloated code" I mostly refer to stuff that is *actually a large quantity of code*.
20:43:46 <pikhq_> Because 99% of the time the metric that matters is how much code there is for humans to deal with.
20:43:56 <kmc> ok, well that's not what nortti_ was talking about
20:44:09 <pikhq_> Though he'd probably have better luck with smaller human code size.
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20:44:56 <pikhq_> nortti_: Which vi are you using?
20:45:35 <nortti_> pikhq_: you meant on ELKS? I am not completely sure
20:45:54 <pikhq_> (not that ELKS is anything but a curiosity at this point)
20:46:03 <ais523> oh well, I just submitted the story to Slashdot, mostly because I'm really interested in the resulting comments
20:46:04 <nortti_> on slitaz I use busybox vi
20:46:06 <kmc> i mean programming with restricted resources is a fun challenge
20:46:11 <kmc> and is sometimes required for embedded systems
20:46:44 <pikhq_> Though we're in a weird land where some embedded systems beat out 10 year old workstations.
20:47:15 <nortti_> ais523: that UEFI secure boit story?
20:47:21 <pikhq_> Though, I'm not sure you can call "ARM in everything" "embedded" anymore.
20:47:54 <ais523> I had a 50% success rate for Slashdot submissions before this one
20:47:55 <kmc> but it's dumb when programmers get all smug and serious about a desktop app using 1 MB of RAM, which is $0.005 of RAM at current prices
20:47:58 <ais523> let's see if it gets accepted or rejected
20:48:06 <kmc> anyway I've made this point enough times
20:48:14 <kmc> nortti_ seems oblivious or maybe I'm just misunderstanding their motivations
20:48:28 <fizzie> You mean this http://linux.slashdot.org/story/12/05/31/190217/red-hat-will-pay-microsoft-to-get-past-uefi-restrictions story?
20:48:48 <nortti_> pikhq_: yeah. Also the feeling when you realize that the speed of the phone your friend whines about is actually faster than your computer's
20:48:56 <pikhq_> kmc: 1MiB of RAM? Heck, I might use that as a buffer.
20:49:32 <pikhq_> (okay, okay, only if that's actually sane.)
20:49:57 <ais523> fizzie: I looked for it, pity the search is still bad
20:50:06 <ais523> oh well, at least it /still/ has a 50% chance of being accepted :)
20:50:13 <fizzie> I used this thing called Google.
20:50:14 <nortti_> I try to limit my programs to 64kB code+64kB stack&heap
20:50:31 <pikhq_> nortti_: You're a bit nuts.
20:51:54 <pikhq_> nortti_: More-so given that *even considering 8086's limitations* that sucker has no business being restricted to a single real mode segment per code, stack, heap.
20:52:28 <pikhq_> Sure, the addressing gets really ridiculous, but eh.
20:53:29 <ais523> my own prediction is that someone will find a way to jailbreak the UEFI protection pretty quickly
20:53:38 <ais523> perhaps using bugs in Microsoft's bootloader
20:54:13 <nortti_> well I want my code to run on all of my *nix systems including MINIX 1. Now I'll just hope I don't install lunix on my c64
20:55:16 <nortti_> pikhq_: it is more of a limitation in bcc
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21:00:19 <Phantom__Hoover> what the fuck is the point in a screen lock that includes a screensaver that is literally a transparent window moving around the screen
21:00:48 <ais523> Phantom__Hoover: it doesn't stop people looking at your screen, but it does stop them giving commands to it
21:02:01 <Phantom__Hoover> I... would quite like it if they can't look at my screen, and I'm especially unhappy that it's not made clear that it can randomly decide to stop doing that.
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21:05:02 <ais523> oh, I thought it was an option, rather than something that happens randomly
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21:12:45 <zzo38> Are you sure, you cannot turn off those things?
21:12:59 <zzo38> If it include some screensaver, can you add/remove some?
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22:07:24 <lambdabot> monqy: You have 10 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
22:08:48 <elliott> the ogak is playing right now
22:08:55 <elliott> it's had "quality elliptic help"
22:09:00 <elliott> it's only died like 8 times so far anyway
22:09:07 <elliott> i also did orc on another one
22:09:11 <elliott> have to do lair on another one but it's almost dead
22:09:17 <elliott> i gave more info in lambdabot and henzell messages :P
22:09:42 <elliott> monqy: also you will be pleased to know:
22:09:51 <elliott> "ready for a tukima's party"
22:11:55 <elliott> it;s DISCOBRADECAPELLO on cao
22:12:47 <elliott> monqy: do you have any suggestions
22:12:54 <elliott> also i followed syraine's ogak guide it went "great"
22:13:18 <elliott> train m&f and fighting, focus m&f, m&f until 12, fighting until 8, then fighting -> invocations
22:13:26 <elliott> so i stopped following it because it's terrible
22:13:28 <elliott> and just trained invo instead
22:13:30 <elliott> and syraine was really sad
22:14:36 <monqy> team CHAOSTALK spreadsheet. fewn. syraine. mission 1. Comments: F_)ck FeWn
22:15:46 <elliott> monqy: btw i was going to disto the gsc
22:16:14 <monqy> yeah that's the only problem with tukimas ogak
22:16:44 <monqy> could disto it and just unwield once tukimas. worst case we get glowed to hell
22:16:44 <elliott> monqy: apart from having to train to 27 hexes, apparently
22:16:52 <monqy> yeah that's the worst part
22:16:54 <elliott> monqy: have you forgotten: abyss
22:17:08 <elliott> monqy: btw i fell down a shaft from like D:7 to D:11
22:17:15 <monqy> elliott: lugonu, elliott
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22:30:04 <elliott> monqy: the pan lords names were created in lowercase
22:30:12 <elliott> "ha" -judge of username competition
23:07:22 <elliott> monqy: how is the vpar going
23:10:43 <elliott> monqy: btw feel free to put rc stuff on the ogak
23:10:49 <elliott> as long as it doesn't end up looking like squarelos
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23:27:41 <david_werecat> elliott: Thanks for letting me know about gearlance. It's working much better.
23:27:57 <elliott> Does the wiki still talk about egojoust?
23:28:01 <elliott> It should probably be updated.
23:28:13 <zzo38> How to do gamma correction by integer arithmetic?
23:28:24 <ais523> any of the lances or juiced are reasonable for running tests
23:28:32 <ais523> (I use juiced because I wrote it and it has some nifty features for testing)
23:28:56 <elliott> i'll still finish lance some day
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23:29:53 <david_werecat> Fun fact: The current configuration of dreadnought is nearly optimal, even though I barely optimized it.
23:30:23 <zzo38> How to gamma/contrast/brightness table by integer arithmetic?
23:31:13 <ais523> david_werecat: can't think of any way to beat counterpoke without losing a huge amount of ground to everything else?
23:31:50 <ais523> so, I've come to the conclusion that the main difference between counterpoke and things like ffspg is that it sets the decoys much nearer the square it pokes
23:32:17 <ais523> which means that the opponent has to be leaving evidence of their motion for it to work well
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23:32:45 <david_werecat> Actually, I have a test version that doesn't leave a trail.
23:33:17 <zzo38> I realized I do have C documentation in my computer, in Cygwin, so I will use that
23:33:31 <david_werecat> Counterpoke still does well, even without a trail, though.
23:33:32 <ais523> not leaving a trail leaves you vulnerable to regular rushes, unless you set large decoys
23:33:38 <zzo38> (It doesn't answer the gamma/contrast/brightness question, though)
23:33:44 <ais523> and indeed, the second half is optimized against trail-free programs
23:33:53 <ais523> on the basis that it wouldn't even be reached for trailing programs
23:36:22 <david_werecat> It's strange that counterpoke is so low on the list.
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23:38:00 <ais523> right next to insidious, which is a much more hopeless strategy
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23:39:04 <Gregor> Beaten out by ill_bet_you_have_four_decoys ;)
23:42:22 <david_werecat> !bfjoust dreadnought http://tinypaste.com/65b19928/save.php?hash=7cc9e6cd41212521c6ab0d41cf88767e
23:42:26 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_dreadnought: 71.2
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23:44:07 <elliott> ais523: so do you still think bf joust is broken?
23:48:02 <ais523> elliott: it's not as healthy as it could be
23:50:02 <oerjan> it's not dead it's just resting
23:53:26 <ais523> haha, counterpoke falls off the tape against anticipation
23:53:37 <ais523> looks like counter-shudder isn't so useless after all :)
00:03:42 <david_werecat> Optimization 37% done and I'm not even optimizing the decoy setup
00:04:40 <ais523> !bfjoust anticipation http://sprunge.us/ejTG
00:04:43 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_anticipation: 0.0
00:04:48 <ais523> bleh, size limit again…
00:05:24 <ais523> no, I added in the cases needed to beat dreadnaught
00:05:34 <ais523> I'm going to delete some of the five-cycle offset clear cases that aren't used in practice
00:06:07 <ais523> I feel justified in this sort of constant-tweaking because it's working around hill limitations rather than program limitations
00:06:17 <ais523> !bfjoust anticipation http://sprunge.us/PBLP
00:06:22 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_anticipation: 35.9
00:06:45 <ais523> ais523_anticipation.bfjoust vs david_werecat_dreadnought.bfjoust
00:06:46 <ais523> <<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -30
00:06:48 <ais523> ais523_anticipation.bfjoust wins.
00:07:09 <ais523> I can generate the full anticipation easily enough but the hill won't accept it
00:07:41 <ais523> interestingly, it manages to get dreadnaught to run off the tape (!)
00:07:50 <ais523> at least on sieve polarity
00:07:54 <ais523> (on kettle it locks it in place instead)
00:08:36 <david_werecat> I think that's because of the way I put in the anti-triplock in the attack scheme.
00:10:01 <ais523> basically, [+[+]][+[+]]> is the sort of pattern you want if you want to be 100% immune to both triplocks and vibrations
00:10:24 <ais523> (although it won't beat anticipation, incidentally)
00:11:15 <ais523> a triplock requires three ] in a row, and there aren't there
00:11:33 <ais523> and a vibration relies on you not checking for two cycles in a row, and that does
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00:13:13 <david_werecat> I'm going to try to quickly plug that into dreadnought and see the results.
00:14:18 <ais523> that's a [+] replacement
00:14:35 <ais523> if you wanted a different sort of clear loop, you'd replace each of the +s with everything you wanted inside the loop
00:15:15 <ais523> !bfjoust beats_vibration_and_triplock (>)*8(>[+[+]][+[+]])*21
00:15:18 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_beats_vibration_and_triplock: 20.8
00:15:20 * ais523 vaguely wonders if it beats anything else
00:15:38 <david_werecat> !bfjoust dreadnought http://tinypaste.com/8ff271d4/save.php?hash=bb8ae3da6cffef9d87d8764331b10e7c
00:15:42 <ais523> huh, all of olsner's programs, for one
00:15:42 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_dreadnought: 70.4
00:15:53 <david_werecat> !bfjoust dreadnought http://tinypaste.com/65b19928/save.php?hash=7cc9e6cd41212521c6ab0d41cf88767e
00:15:56 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_dreadnought: 71.0
00:16:19 <ais523> and counterpoke, hahaha
00:16:59 <ais523> the other results are expected (it beats programs that require the opponent to use decoys, and the things it's tuned to beat)
00:17:16 <ais523> so now, you're beating everything but anticipation and counterpoke
00:17:23 <ais523> I actually really really like anticipation
00:17:47 <ais523> such a pity it doesn't compress well
00:17:59 <ais523> it's a very simple program really, just all the cases have to be written out by hand and there are thousands
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00:20:08 <david_werecat> If only the hill allowed something like bzip2 compression
00:20:21 <ais523> you can't run a program while it's bzipped :)
00:21:19 <ais523> I think the issue's space used in memory while the program is running, rather than bandwidth
00:21:31 <ais523> hmm, the waterfalls beat dreadnought on one polarity
00:21:48 <ais523> I guess it's misdetecting on the other polarity, and the fallbacks don't work
00:22:27 <ais523> dreadnaught seems far from unbeatable, the more I look at it
00:22:48 <ais523> and, heh, on very long tapes there are draws, I'm guessing due to time out
00:24:29 <david_werecat> Dreadnought shouldn't be too hard to beat, it'll just take some time.
00:25:17 <ais523> counterpoke seems to beat it comprehensively, but I'm thinking more of tweaking existing strategies to beat it
00:25:35 * ais523 watches waterfall2 beat dreadnought on a long tape on kettle polarity
00:25:45 <ais523> then I guess I'll watch it lose on sieve, to see why
00:28:39 <david_werecat> It looks like waterfall2 waits for dreanought even when dreadnought has passed onto the next space
00:29:16 <ais523> 3 has fallbacks against that sort of thing
00:29:20 <ais523> but they probably won't work
00:29:28 <ais523> it falls back to triplocking in emergencies, and you have counter-triplock code
00:30:27 <david_werecat> It looks like the reason why dreadnought continues past is also due to the counter-triplock code
00:33:25 <david_werecat> Actually, it seems that dreadnought moves onto the [-] part of the clear routine on normal polarity and so it move on after 2 cycles instead of 3
00:35:13 <ais523> this is quite common against waterfall, it's really complex /and/ really fragile
00:36:05 <ais523> getting it to the top of the hill required lots of constant-tweaking just to avoid coincidences where enemy programs got knocked onto a different part of their clear algo
00:36:36 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if an inline clear can be modified to take constant time?
00:37:02 <ais523> it'd be awesome if it could
00:37:28 <ais523> but it seems awkward, it has beautifully hard to time constructs like [>] in
00:40:36 <ais523> hmm, the duration depends on the distance it has to move and the amount it has to clear
00:40:56 <ais523> using an inefficient clear where we only change the value by 1 at a time until it's zeroed makes one of the values constant
00:42:03 <ais523> and I guess we could use a counter or something for the tape length, copying it back and forth between a cell and the next one
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00:48:37 <ais523> doable, but may end up too long /and/ too slow
00:52:32 <ais523> !bfjoust omega_turtle >>>>>>(+)*12<(+)*60<(-)*60<(+)*60<(+)*60<(-)*60(>)*7((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21
00:52:35 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_omega_turtle: 23.2
00:54:43 <ais523> ooh, I think I've found the perfect clear loop for counterpoke :)
00:55:11 <ais523> although this will suck against defence
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00:57:46 <david_werecat> !bfjoust dreadnought http://tinypaste.com/e0870cd3/save.php?hash=d8e637c825b5fda9f9a5256ab546e67d
00:57:50 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_dreadnought: 66.2
00:58:18 <david_werecat> !bfjoust dreadnought http://tinypaste.com/65b19928/save.php?hash=7cc9e6cd41212521c6ab0d41cf88767e
00:58:21 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_dreadnought: 69.8
00:59:37 <elliott> it seems to be getting worse
00:59:39 <ais523> !bfjoust omega_turtle >>>>>[>>>>(+)*128[+]]>>>[<<<(+)*12<(-)*60<(+)*60<(+)*60<(-)*60(>)*7((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(-)*60<(+)*60<(+)*60<(-)*60<(+)*60<(+)*60<(-)*60(>)*7((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21
00:59:43 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_omega_turtle: 27.9
01:00:14 <ais523> beats quite a lot of things, actually
01:00:17 <itidus20> 69.8 is a good score though eh
01:01:18 <ais523> I came to the realisation that /even if/ you have a really really large offset on your offset turtle, it's still going to go faster than a standard clear
01:02:08 <david_werecat> 71 was before countermeasures, so a little unrealistic.
01:02:18 <itidus20> don't get me wrong i couldn't write a bfjouster for the life of me, but i know that 71.2 has got to be a serious score
01:02:24 <ais523> countermeasures = everyone coming up with creative new ways to beat your program?
01:02:29 <ais523> itidus20: well, I consider 30 to be a nice solid score
01:02:40 <ais523> over 70, you have to have a serious attempt at beating /every/ other program
01:03:55 <ais523> !bfjoust omega_counterpoke http://sprunge.us/TLKR
01:03:59 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_omega_counterpoke: 0.0
01:04:26 <david_werecat> itidus20: The average on the hill is around 28 or so.
01:04:35 <elliott> ais523: syntax error, probably
01:04:42 <itidus20> i guess it's not about twinking
01:04:53 <ais523> missed an open paren somewhere, I think
01:05:11 <ais523> !bfjoust omega_counterpoke http://sprunge.us/eQgF
01:05:14 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_omega_counterpoke: 0.0
01:05:59 <david_werecat> Lots of unmatched loops and perenthesis, looking at egojsout.
01:06:18 <ais523> !bfjoust omega_counterpoke http://sprunge.us/IdEN
01:06:21 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_omega_counterpoke: 11.4
01:06:26 <ais523> hmm, not as high as I'd hoped
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01:06:46 <ais523> and now it loses to juggernaught
01:08:07 <ais523> seems the clear loop in omega_counterpoke is just impractically slow for the situations it ends up in
01:08:24 <ais523> counterpoke's strength in skipping decoys, the strength of a careless clear is that it doesn't care about decoys
01:08:54 <ais523> so both omega_turtle and counterpoke are better than omega_counterpoke
01:08:58 <ais523> interesting experiment, anyway
01:12:14 <david_werecat> !bfjoust counterpoke_o8 http://tinypaste.com/592fbfd1/save.php?hash=7e4c4922ec72a14c90a7e6312b821d59
01:12:17 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_counterpoke_o8: 26.5
01:13:05 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_counterpoke_o8: 0.0
01:13:27 <david_werecat> It seems that increasing the range of the offset clear doesn't help much either.
01:17:51 <ais523> I wouldn't expect it to
01:17:59 <ais523> 3's enough to get past trivial trails and the like
01:18:12 <ais523> anything else, it's probably not going to be worth doing anything other than brute-forcing it
01:21:08 <ais523> because it's quite likely to be a flag
01:22:17 -!- yiyus has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
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01:24:10 <david_werecat> Hmm, the optimizer just found a better config for dreadnought, but I can't extract it in mid-run.
01:25:53 -!- yiyus has joined.
01:27:43 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>(+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40>[]<([{(<(-)*50)*4<(+)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17}](<(+)*50)*4<(-)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17)%256
01:27:46 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_skyscraper: 9.4
01:27:58 <ais523> it's pretty experimental, I didn't expect it to work well
01:28:02 <ais523> now to see how it fails
01:29:48 <ais523> oh, duh, that was really really stupid
01:30:29 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>(+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40>[]<(+[{(<(-)*50)*4<(+)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17}](<(+)*50)*4<(-)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17)%256
01:30:32 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_skyscraper: 12.2
01:34:14 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40>[]<(+[{(<(-)*50)*5<(+)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17}](<(+)*50)*5<(-)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17)%256
01:34:17 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_skyscraper: 16.6
01:34:27 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: later chat).
01:34:27 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40>[]<(+[{(<(-)*50)*5<(+)*78(>)*13((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17}](<(+)*50)*5<(-)*78(>)*13((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17)%256
01:34:30 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_skyscraper: 16.0
01:34:40 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40>[]<(+[{(<(-)*50)*5<(+)*78(>)*11((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17}](<(+)*50)*5<(-)*78(>)*11((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17)%256
01:34:43 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_skyscraper: 16.2
01:34:50 <ais523> looks like I guessed right first time :)
01:35:14 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>[((>>>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21]>[((>>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21]>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40>[]<(+[{(<(-)*50)*5<(+)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17}](<(+)*50)*5<(-)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17)%256
01:35:17 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_skyscraper: 15.9
01:35:25 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>[((>>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21]>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40>[]<(+[{(<(-)*50)*5<(+)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17}](<(+)*50)*5<(-)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17)%256
01:35:29 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_skyscraper: 15.9
01:35:39 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40>[]<(+[{(<(-)*50)*5<(+)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17}](<(+)*50)*5<(-)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17)%256
01:35:42 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_skyscraper: 16.6
01:36:16 <ais523> ais523_skyscraper.bfjoust vs ais523_triplock3.bfjoust XXX>XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XXX>XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX -2 ais523_skyscraper.bfjoust wins.
01:38:03 <ais523> oh, obviously, they're just both waiting for each other
01:39:24 <david_werecat> That's the problem with programming defense, it doesn't work so well again other defense programs.
01:39:43 <Gregor> ais523 is, I'm sure, ruefully aware of that.
01:40:14 <ais523> not really rueful, it's pretty easy to change to a counter-defence rush after a few tens of thousands of cycles
01:40:57 <ais523> oh, /ouch/, there's an obvious bug in skyscraper
01:42:26 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>[]<(+[{<(-)*60(<(-)*50)*4<(+)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17}]<(+)*40(<(+)*50)*4<(-)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17)%256
01:42:29 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_skyscraper: 18.2
01:44:18 <ais523> and another, which is less easily fixable
01:47:03 <david_werecat> Optimization 89% done... it'll probabbly only be another tenth of a point anyways.
01:47:58 <ais523> !bfjoust >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>(+)*20[]<(+++++[[[[[[{<(-)*60(<(-)*50)*4<(+)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17}]<(+)*40(<(+)*50)*4<(-)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17]<(+)*40(<(+)*50)*4<(-)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17]<(+)*40(<(+)*50)*4<(-)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17]<(+)*40(<(+)*50)*4<(-)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[--
01:47:59 <david_werecat> Dreadnought was surprisingly close to what the current optimizer found, despite being unoptimized
01:47:59 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
01:48:00 <ais523> -[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17]<(+)*40(<(+)*50)*4<(-)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17]<(+)*40(<(+)*50)*4<(-)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17)%45
01:48:06 <ais523> err, that didn't fit all one line :)
01:48:51 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper http://sprunge.us/VjDE
01:48:52 <david_werecat> I wondered what would happen with long lines on irc...
01:48:55 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_skyscraper: 14.8
01:49:00 <ais523> heh, and it was worse anyway
01:49:05 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>[]<(+[{<(-)*60(<(-)*50)*4<(+)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17}]<(+)*40(<(+)*50)*4<(-)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%17)*17)%256
01:49:08 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_skyscraper: 18.2
01:50:32 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>[]<(+[{<(-)*60(<(-)*50)*4<(+)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[-]]]]])%17)*17}]<(+)*40(<(+)*50)*4<(-)*78(>)*12((>[+[+[---[-[-]]]]])%17)*17)%256
01:50:35 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_skyscraper: 17.2
01:51:16 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>[]<(+[{<(-)*60(<(-)*50)*4<(+)*78(>)*12((>[(+)*20[-]])%17)*17}]<(+)*40(<(+)*50)*4<(-)*78(>)*12((>[(+)*20[-]])%17)*17)%256
01:51:19 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_skyscraper: 21.9
01:51:27 <ais523> experimenting with different sorts of clear loop
01:51:33 <ais523> I thought a large offset clear might work well with that algo
01:51:51 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>[]<(+[{<(-)*60(<(-)*50)*4<(+)*78(>)*12((>[(+)*30[-]])%17)*17}]<(+)*40(<(+)*50)*4<(-)*78(>)*12((>[(+)*30[-]])%17)*17)%256
01:51:54 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_skyscraper: 20.9
01:52:01 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>[]<(+[{<(-)*60(<(-)*50)*4<(+)*78(>)*12((>[(+)*50[-]])%17)*17}]<(+)*40(<(+)*50)*4<(-)*78(>)*12((>[(+)*50[-]])%17)*17)%256
01:52:04 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_skyscraper: 16.6
01:52:11 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>[]<(+[{<(-)*60(<(-)*50)*4<(+)*78(>)*12((>[(+)*10[-]])%17)*17}]<(+)*40(<(+)*50)*4<(-)*78(>)*12((>[(+)*10[-]])%17)*17)%256
01:52:14 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_skyscraper: 19.2
01:52:22 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>[]<(+[{<(-)*60(<(-)*50)*4<(+)*78(>)*12((>[(+)*21[-]])%17)*17}]<(+)*40(<(+)*50)*4<(-)*78(>)*12((>[(+)*21[-]])%17)*17)%256
01:52:25 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_skyscraper: 21.6
01:52:34 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>[]<(+[{<(-)*60(<(-)*50)*4<(+)*78(>)*12((>[(+)*19[-]])%17)*17}]<(+)*40(<(+)*50)*4<(-)*78(>)*12((>[(+)*19[-]])%17)*17)%256
01:52:37 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_skyscraper: 22.1
01:52:45 <ais523> let's stick with this version
01:53:57 <ais523> I guess I could plausibly call it attack9
01:54:01 <ais523> because it's defend9 but a rush program
01:54:32 <ais523> and thus can be defeated by all the usual sorts of things that beat defend9
01:56:23 <david_werecat> It seems that a major loss area is around where Deewiant and Gregor's programs are.
01:57:21 <elliott> monqy: do you have me for converting to jiyva
01:58:11 <monqy> don't worry the character is actually ok now that ive gotten used to it
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02:03:41 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>(+)*30<<(<(+)*10)*4>>>>>>([{(<)*7(-)*99(>)*8(>[(+)*19[-]])*21}<(+[{(<(-)*60)*5<(+)*78(>)*12((>[(+)*19[-]])%17)*17}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12((>[(+)*19[-]])%17)*17)%256])%768
02:03:44 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_skyscraper: 26.1
02:04:21 <ais523> but yes, there's a very easy way to beat skyscraper, which is something that some players do out of habit and some don't
02:04:57 <ais523> heh, and now insidious, skyscraper and counterpoke are all next to each other on the leaderboard
02:05:44 <ais523> btw, dreadnaught has started losing to slowpoke, if I read the leaderboard correctly; I'm not sure why
02:06:04 <ais523> have you figured out skyscraper's strategy yet, btw?
02:08:04 <david_werecat> From what I can see, it detects the polarity of the enemy and builds several large decoys that are more difficult for that polarity.
02:09:53 <ais523> it's setting the decoys to whatever polarity the enemy has trouble clearing
02:09:58 <ais523> effectively making there twice as many
02:10:01 <elliott> ais523: thank you for using the correct polarity names btw
02:10:47 <ais523> you have an interesting definition of "correct" :)
02:13:56 <ais523> combining skyscraper with counterpoke could be interesting
02:14:05 <ais523> but I'm not sure if I have the mental energy to write that right now
02:14:18 <ais523> probably only on long tapes, skyscraper sacrifices short ones
02:16:49 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>(+)*30<<(<(+)*10)*4>>>>>>([{(<)*7(-)*99(>)*8(>[(+)*19[-]])*21}<(+[+(+[{(<(-)*60)*5<(+)*78(>)*12((>[(+)*19[-]])%17)*17}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12((>[(+)*19[-]])%17)*17)%128](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12((>[(+)*19[-]])%17)*17)%128])%768
02:16:52 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_skyscraper: 23.8
02:17:20 <ais523> and that /looked/ like a straight improvement, as well
02:18:06 <ais523> oh, I completely messed up the c/p
02:18:40 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>(+)*30<<(<(+)*10)*4>>>>>>([{(<)*7(-)*99(>)*8(>[(+)*19[-]])*21}<(+[{+(+[{(<(-)*60)*5<(+)*78(>)*12((>[(+)*19[-]])%17)*17}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12((>[(+)*19[-]])%17)*17)%128}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12((>[(+)*19[-]])%17)*17)%128])%768
02:18:43 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_skyscraper: 26.9
02:19:47 <ais523> now it's mostly Gregor it isn't beating
02:20:06 <ais523> and huh, that clear loop is written in a nonsensical manner
02:21:09 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>(+)*30<<(<(+)*10)*4>>>>>>([{(<)*7(-)*99(>)*8(>[(+)*19[-]])*21}<(+[{+(+[{(<(-)*60)*5<(+)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128])%768
02:21:12 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_skyscraper: 26.9
02:21:19 <ais523> that's better, even though it's equivalent
02:21:42 <ais523> next step is timer clear, I guess, as it's struggling against defence
02:22:03 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>(+)*30<<(<(+)*10)*4>>>>>>([{(<)*7(-)*99(>)*8(>[(+)*19[---]])*21}<(+[{+(+[{(<(-)*60)*5<(+)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128])%768
02:22:06 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_skyscraper: 33.2
02:23:16 <ais523> I meant, a much simpler fix than timer clear
02:23:23 <ais523> now it's getting triplocked…
02:27:46 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>(+)*30<<(<(+)*10)*4>>>>>>([{(<)*7(-)*99(>)*8(>[(+)*19([---{[+[+]][+[+]]>}])%256])*21}<(+[{+(+[{(<(-)*60)*5<(+)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128])%768
02:27:49 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_skyscraper: 30.5
02:27:59 <ais523> huh, what did that screw up?
02:28:04 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>(+)*30<<(<(+)*10)*4>>>>>>([{(<)*7(-)*99(>)*8(>[(+)*19[---]])*21}<(+[{+(+[{(<(-)*60)*5<(+)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128])%768
02:28:07 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_skyscraper: 33.2
02:29:03 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>(+)*30<<(<(+)*10)*4>>>>>>([{(<)*7(-)*99(>)*8(>[(+)*19([---{[+[+]][+[+]]>}])%2560])*21}<(+[{+(+[{(<(-)*60)*5<(+)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128])%768
02:29:06 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_skyscraper: 29.1
02:29:20 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>(+)*30<<(<(+)*10)*4>>>>>>([{(<)*7(-)*99(>)*8(>[(+)*19([---{[+[+]][+[+]]>}])%9999)*21}<(+[{+(+[{(<(-)*60)*5<(+)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128])%768
02:29:23 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_skyscraper: 0.0
02:29:36 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>(+)*30<<(<(+)*10)*4>>>>>>([{(<)*7(-)*99(>)*8(>[(+)*19([---{[+[+]][+[+]]>}])%999)*21}<(+[{+(+[{(<(-)*60)*5<(+)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128])%768
02:29:39 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_skyscraper: 0.0
02:29:57 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>(+)*30<<(<(+)*10)*4>>>>>>([{(<)*7(-)*99(>)*8(>[(+)*19([---{[+[+]][+[+]]>}])%9999])*21}<(+[{+(+[{(<(-)*60)*5<(+)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128])%768
02:30:00 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_skyscraper: 24.6
02:30:51 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>(+)*30<<(<(+)*10)*4>>>>>>([{(<)*7(-)*99(>)*8(>[(+)*19([---{[+[+]][+[+]]>([---{[+[+]][+[+]]>([---{[+[+]][+[+]]>}])%2560])}])%2560])}])%2560])*21}<(+[{+(+[{(<(-)*60)*5<(+)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128])%768
02:30:54 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_skyscraper: 0.0
02:31:05 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*64(.+)*128{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>(+)*30<<(<(+)*10)*4>>>>>>([{(<)*7(-)*99(>)*8(>[(+)*19[---]])*21}<(+[{+(+[{(<(-)*60)*5<(+)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128])%768
02:31:09 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_skyscraper: 33.2
02:31:49 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*96(.+)*64{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>(+)*30<<(<(+)*10)*4>>>>>>([{(<)*7(-)*99(>)*8(>[(+)*19[---]])*21}<(+[{+(+[{(<(-)*60)*5<(+)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128])%768
02:31:52 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_skyscraper: 33.6
02:33:24 <ais523> now skyscraper's doing better than slowrush
02:33:28 <ais523> this program isn't meant to do this well help
02:33:38 <david_werecat> !bfjoust dreadnought http://tinypaste.com/dbb9314c/save.php?hash=62e33e11c2a65678f411f084883c46a4
02:33:42 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_dreadnought: 67.4
02:33:59 <ais523> heh, dreadnought and skyscraper /draw/
02:34:44 <david_werecat> funny, I didn't even have skyscraper in the optimization set
02:35:55 <myndzi> i'm not feeling well, what is all this mess
02:36:04 <ais523> myndzi: we're jousting
02:36:18 <ais523> david_werecat came up with dreadnought which /almost/ beat everything
02:36:27 <ais523> but I came up with a range of new programs to beat it
02:38:28 <ais523> oh wtf, that was a pretty amazing reason for skyscraper losing on sieve
02:38:30 <myndzi> well, i mean what all is new? ;)
02:38:58 <myndzi> i just got done coding for like 4 days @ 16 hours so my brain doesn't want to read these
02:39:18 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*96(.+)*64{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>(+)*30<<(<(+)*10)*4>>>>>>([{(<)*7(-)*99(>)*8(>[(+)*19[---]])*21}<(+[{.(+[{(<(-)*60)*5<(+)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%128])%768
02:39:21 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_skyscraper: 31.5
02:39:24 <myndzi> i just saw a bunch of symbols and was like o, people be playing around eh?
02:40:08 <ais523> not easily fixable, apparently :)
02:40:30 <myndzi> go go slowrush hang in there!!!
02:40:49 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*96(.+)*64{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>(+)*30<<(<(+)*10)*4>>>>>>([{(<)*7(-)*99(>)*8(>[(+)*19[---]])*21}<(+[{+(+[{(<(-)*60)*5<(+)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%100}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%156])%768
02:40:52 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_skyscraper: 34.8
02:41:32 <ais523> that makes it work a bit better against dreadnought and space_elevator
02:41:36 <ais523> and is a nicely generic fix, I hope
02:41:55 <myndzi> i think you guys are just throwing the symbols in a random number generator anymore
02:42:01 <quintopia> i need to get around to fixingspace elevator
02:42:15 <ais523> was space_elevator ever #1? I can't remember
02:42:24 <ais523> what would you be fixing it for? modern strategy?
02:42:39 <quintopia> it does a great decoy build butit clears too slow to win
02:43:08 <ais523> sometimes the simple clear loops are the best
02:43:26 <ais523> elliott: you'll be glad to hear that skyscraper is probably the best moderately good program that sacrifices short tape lengths
02:43:38 <ais523> which was your strategy, IIRC
02:43:43 <ais523> err, first moderately good
02:44:12 <ais523> it doesn't sacrifice them just to get a head start, though; it sacrifices them to give more space to build decoys
02:44:21 <ais523> yes, there's a rule of 12 in there
02:44:32 <ais523> although if it detects a short tape, it switches to omega_turtle
02:44:44 <ais523> so it's only sacrificing short tapes it can't detect, which is typically 3 or 4 lengths
02:45:08 <ais523> the rule of 12 is because if it hasn't lost already, the tape is probably quite long
02:45:15 <ais523> it's a turtle with a very large offset
02:45:53 <quintopia> i have a new program but it is almost certainly too long
02:47:03 <quintopia> i'd like to add something to bfj language to make complex strategies smaller and clearer
02:47:19 <quintopia> but it would probably obsoleteall currentstrategies
02:48:16 <myndzi> not if it doesn't change instruction size?
02:48:26 <myndzi> some kind of macro compiler could be useful
02:48:38 <myndzi> i'm not quite sure what kind of directives you would quantify these with though
02:48:45 <myndzi> but there are patterns so i'm sure it's possible
02:50:44 <david_werecat> If the macros had submultipliers, it would be even better.
02:51:31 <elliott> david_werecat: problem is the macros have to be expanded server-side
02:51:36 <elliott> which doesn't work when you have very complex constructions
02:51:50 <elliott> the thing with the existing repetition facilities is that they can be interpreted efficiently, without expansion
02:51:58 <elliott> (egojoust expands them, which is why it's so slow)
02:54:52 * ais523 rages at sucralose_philip
02:54:57 <ais523> and the other programs based on it
02:55:29 <ais523> changing strategy after four decoys makes all my strategy detection kind-of useless
02:57:29 <david_werecat> Whoa, what's triplock3 doing that near to the bottom?
02:57:47 <ais523> david_werecat: triplock3 is a simplified but less accurate triplock2
02:57:52 <ais523> so it should be doing somewhat worse than triplock2
02:58:01 <ais523> also, everyone knows about triplocks nowadays
02:58:11 <ais523> although I don't think anyone else actually /uses/ them
02:58:41 <ais523> haha, I'd forgotten that waterfall3 actually /deleted its own decoys/ in order to stop sucralose_philip changing strategy :)
03:00:13 <ais523> delete your decoys, change your flag, and it falls off the end :)
03:00:36 <david_werecat> How did that affect its performance against other programs though?
03:00:50 <ais523> not a lot, it only did it if it detected a turtle/philip
03:01:13 <ais523> waterfall3 is pretty much made of special cases
03:01:15 <myndzi> interesting, i just read the freaking novel you wrote on waterfall3
03:01:30 <ais523> I don't /quite/ think it's the case that every program sent it down a different codepath
03:01:34 <ais523> but it must have been quite close ;)
03:01:50 <ais523> and then I only wrote a couple of lines about slowpoke
03:01:57 <ais523> because waterfall3 really is that much more complex than slowpoke is
03:02:15 <myndzi> funny that it took so long for the ideas wrt: timing detection to show profit
03:02:43 <myndzi> to be honest i never thought programs that complex would succeed
03:03:03 <myndzi> this game has stayed interesting longer than i figured on
03:03:15 <myndzi> but it's way too annoying to actually participate in now haha
03:03:24 <ais523> I don't know, you still have programs on the hill
03:03:30 <ais523> you can just try some simple programs and see what sticks
03:03:44 <ais523> !bfjoust the_first_program_ever [>[-]+]
03:03:44 <myndzi> yeah, but that's not as interesting ;)
03:03:45 <ion> “the freaking novel you wrote on waterfall3” – URL, please. :-)
03:03:48 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_the_first_program_ever: 9.3
03:04:06 <ion> Ok, thanks
03:04:07 <ais523> ion: http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust_strategies#2011 and scroll down a bit
03:04:18 <ais523> stop when you reach the wall of text
03:04:29 <myndzi> on the topic of updating the language
03:04:37 <ais523> the first program ever doesn't do to well nowadays
03:04:39 <myndzi> there seems to be one thing that was enabled by the better interpreter
03:04:48 <myndzi> that is somewhat common
03:04:56 <myndzi> which is basically setting up nested loops to operate as conditionals
03:05:05 <myndzi> it's a waste of memory and they never get processed
03:05:09 <myndzi> they just get used as ifs
03:05:23 <myndzi> so i think it would be fair to add something like an if-not-zero
03:05:37 <myndzi> since theoretically you can accomplish the same by nesting a bunch of loops to ridiculous length
03:05:40 <ais523> in fact, I strongly considered an alternative BF Joust where doing that was banned in order to make defence more interesting
03:05:42 <myndzi> it would make programs simpler to read etc.
03:05:53 <elliott> I strongly oppose the idea of adding an if construct
03:06:04 <elliott> the underlying language is still pure BF in bf joust now and it should stay that way IMO
03:06:20 <myndzi> it's simply a convenience
03:06:25 <myndzi> much like the % and * loops
03:06:31 <myndzi> it doesn't alter the language any
03:06:38 <elliott> well, it's a lot heavier a layer than a simple repetition system
03:06:47 <myndzi> except to make possible "larger" programs
03:06:58 <myndzi> not really.. it basically IS a simple repetition system
03:07:03 <myndzi> "start a loop that i don't expect to end"
03:07:14 <ais523> well, "a ifnonzero(b) c" is a[bc]c but unfortunately, that doesn't abbreviate to anything, not even using %
03:07:16 <myndzi> "i am only gonna write the first character, you can just assume the last one is there"
03:07:38 <ais523> however, it's quite common for b never to return, in which case if and while are equivalent
03:07:55 <myndzi> i forgot about the failure case
03:08:25 <myndzi> i dunno, it would be nice to make things more readable
03:08:50 <ais523> note that at least one program of mine, I was going to do that but it didn't fit into size limits, so I had to be more BFy
03:09:04 <ais523> also note: if you had arbitrary control structures, you'd never use the tape for computation ever
03:09:15 <ais523> (admittedly, generally you don't /anyway/, but waterfall3 does)
03:09:18 <myndzi> the size limits are merely practical, not theoretical ;p
03:09:37 <ais523> using the tape for computation is awkward because the opponent has a tendency of scribbling on it
03:09:43 <ais523> although you can safely do it /behind/ the opponent
03:10:30 <myndzi> i realize this is rather off the wall
03:10:43 <myndzi> 2) provide a mechanism for "if not zero, goto"
03:11:14 <monqy> are we making a new game in the spirit of bfjoust
03:11:26 <myndzi> i'm just talking about notation differences that might make it rather easier to read
03:11:35 <myndzi> the idea here is that things of the form
03:11:45 <itidus20> which has yet to become self aware
03:12:20 <myndzi> you know what i should just write explanations before i offer ideas
03:12:40 <myndzi> [a][b][c] isn't what i was trying to address
03:12:59 <myndzi> [a[b[c]]] can also be covered by that case
03:13:09 <myndzi> the need is for a time penalty of the appropriate amount of cycles
03:13:32 <myndzi> which i think is calculable
03:13:39 <myndzi> but i'm not sure this would really clean anything up much
03:13:39 <ais523> "time penalty" would be fatal to programming
03:13:45 <ais523> because it makes you vulnerable to triplocking
03:13:47 <myndzi> by 'time penalty' i mean ]]]]
03:13:55 <myndzi> doesn't get processed as if it was ]
03:14:23 <myndzi> but what am i even talking about, we don't indend to end/loop with this
03:14:29 <myndzi> i'm sick, i will just be quiet ;)
03:15:11 <itidus20> i have no relevance to bfjoust. but i can see that the nice thing about the bfjoust page on the esolang wiki is it's the sort of thing that could show up as a paperback at a flea market.
03:16:38 <itidus20> its the sort of text someone could just pick up and read .. with an introductory chapter explaining what brainfuck is and what bfjoust is
03:16:45 <elliott> david_werecat: btw, you should link to a specific version of the file
03:16:57 <elliott> in case it falls of the hill or gets changed
03:17:04 <elliott> (if it gets changed, then you can update the link when you update the description, ofc)
03:17:12 <myndzi> i regret fucking with slowrush
03:17:40 <myndzi> after wix stopped fucking with wiggle3
03:17:42 <david_werecat> elliott: The file link is to the most recent version, do you mean the animation version?
03:17:43 <myndzi> like a year later i was like
03:17:45 <myndzi> HA I GET THE LAST WORD
03:17:49 <myndzi> so i tweaked the constants
03:17:54 <elliott> david_werecat: not latest, that's the point
03:17:57 <myndzi> and it didn't really help so i put em back
03:17:59 <elliott> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot.hg/index.cgi/raw-file/80f20eeecd87/ais523_slowpoke.bfjoust
03:18:00 <elliott> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/david_werecat_dreadnought.bfjoust
03:18:06 <elliott> the latter breaks when it falls off the hill
03:18:08 <myndzi> but now it's not technically an uninterrupted run since... god i have no idea when
03:18:14 <elliott> the former doesn't (it points to a specific version and will never change)
03:19:51 <david_werecat> BTW, I don't think dreadnought is going to be knocked off anytime soon.
03:20:06 <myndzi> it might well be changed though ;p
03:20:17 <ais523> !bfjoust death_to_defence (>)*8(>([(+)*24[-{[+++[+++]]}>([(+)*23[-{[+++[+++]]}>([(+)*22[-{[+++[+++]]}>([(+)*21[-{[+++[+++]]}>([(+)*20[-{[+++[+++]]}>([(+)*19[-{[+++[+++]]}>([(+)*18[-{[+++[+++]]}>([(+)*17[-{[+++[+++]]}>([(+)*16[-{[+++[+++]]}>([(+)*15[-{[+++[+++]]}>([(+)*14[-{[+++[+++]]}>([(+)*13[-{[+++[+++]]}>]])%256]])%256]])%256]])%256]])%256]])%256]])%256]])%256]])%256]])%256]])%256]])%256)*-1
03:20:20 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_death_to_defence: 15.8
03:20:29 <ais523> elliott: so there you go, the strategy which I believe beats all defence strategies
03:20:51 <myndzi> that's not really the point
03:21:04 <myndzi> it makes an interesting counterexample?
03:21:08 <ais523> it isn't tuned to beat attack strategies /at all/
03:21:14 <elliott> myndzi: well, it's meant to trivialise the game
03:21:21 <ais523> but the problem is that you can just drop its clear loop into something else
03:21:26 <elliott> I suppose the problem is there's too many attack programs on the hill
03:21:33 <elliott> why not try it with one of your warriors?
03:21:40 <ais523> hmm, it loses to the waterfalls
03:26:23 <ais523> !bfjoust death_to_defence (>)*8(>(+)*24([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*23([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*22([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*21([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*20([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*19([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*18([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*17([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*16([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*15([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*14([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*13([-{[+++[+++]]}>])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999)*-1
03:26:26 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_death_to_defence: 13.9
03:27:49 <ais523> beats anticipation, defend9.75, triplock2/3, waterfall2/3
03:27:54 <ais523> various other assorted programs too
03:28:11 <ais523> /doesn't/ beat vibration, because it needs a separate countervibrate and I didn't bother to add one, but doing that is simple enough
03:28:48 <ais523> (the base program for that is the standard (>)*8(>[-])*21, btw, it just has a much more complex clear loop)
03:29:07 <ais523> (which is a two-cycle offset clear, except against defence)
03:29:29 <ais523> and defence is detected via a 100% reliable mechanism
03:30:00 <ais523> (the opponent /must/ be changing their flag value during the clear in order for it to be detected)
03:30:19 <ais523> the different numbers on the offset clear are to beat anticipation
03:31:09 <myndzi> i don't know what anticipation does
03:31:19 <myndzi> i suppose it anticipates? ;p
03:31:33 <ais523> it sets its flag to nonzero the cycle /after/ the opponent zeroes it
03:31:38 <ais523> by measuring the opponent's timings
03:31:52 <ais523> this puts it into its anti-vibration loop (because it would, wouldn't it?)
03:32:02 <ais523> then it uses a counter-anti-vibration lock
03:32:20 <myndzi> and then an anti-counter-vibrating-furry-leather-strapon lock-and-chain
03:32:32 <ais523> that sounds like what Gregor would come up with :)
03:33:45 <ais523> I was going to add this to skyscraper, but come to think of it, there's no real need
03:33:50 <ais523> skyscraper detects defence well enough as it is
03:34:44 <ais523> !bfjoust death_to_defence (>++++++)*8(>(+)*24([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*23([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*22([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*21([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*20([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*19([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*18([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*17([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*16([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*15([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*14([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*13([-{[+++[+++]]}>])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999)*-1
03:34:47 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_death_to_defence: 21.0
03:34:51 <ais523> let's put some decoys in there, give it a chance
03:35:03 <ais523> !bfjoust death_to_defence (>++++++)*4(>-----)*4(>(+)*24([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*23([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*22([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*21([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*20([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*19([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*18([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*17([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*16([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*15([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*14([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*13([-{[+++[+++]]}>])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999)*-1
03:35:06 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_death_to_defence: 23.5
03:36:12 <ais523> !bfjoust death_to_defence (>+++)*4(>---)*4((-)*20<)*4((+)*20<)*4(+)*30(>)*8(>(+)*24([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*23([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*22([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*21([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*20([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*19([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*18([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*17([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*16([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*15([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*14([-{[+++[+++]]}>(+)*13([-{[+++[+++]]}>])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999)*-1
03:36:15 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_death_to_defence: 39.9
03:36:41 <ais523> #8, just below space_elevator
03:37:28 <elliott> why 999 instead of -1, out of curiosity?
03:37:38 <ais523> elliott: it has to be a finite number higher than 256
03:37:53 <ais523> and I wanted to avoid multiples of 256 due to weird coincidences
03:37:59 <ais523> and that's the time at which it breaks out of the original clear loop
03:38:03 <ais523> and moves onto the counterdefend loop
03:38:12 <ais523> ([+++[+++]] in this example)
03:38:51 <elliott> isn't 999 a bit big, because of the cycle limi?
03:39:08 <ais523> it won't get anywhere near the cycle limit, which is 10000
03:39:16 <ais523> but I'm not seeing timeout draws
03:39:22 <ais523> oh, it's 100000, not 10000
03:40:30 <ais523> !bfjoust death_to_defence (>+++)*4(>---)*4((-)*20<)*4((+)*20<)*4(+)*30(>)*8(>(+)*24([-{[+++]}>(+)*23([-{[+++]}>(+)*22([-{[+++]}>(+)*21([-{[+++]}>(+)*20([-{[+++]}>(+)*19([-{[+++]}>(+)*18([-{[+++]}>(+)*17([-{[+++]}>(+)*16([-{[+++]}>(+)*15([-{[+++]}>(+)*14([-{[+++]}>(+)*13([-{[+++]}>])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999)*-1
03:40:33 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_death_to_defence: 39.9
03:40:40 <ais523> thought that'd be equivalent, and it's shorter
03:42:23 <elliott> such an uncreative name :p
03:42:54 <ais523> !bfjoust death_to_defence http://sprunge.us/dcIN
03:42:58 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_death_to_defence: 14.7
03:43:02 <ais523> !bfjoust death_to_defence (>+++)*4(>---)*4((-)*20<)*4((+)*20<)*4(+)*30(>)*8(>(+)*24([-{[+++]}>(+)*23([-{[+++]}>(+)*22([-{[+++]}>(+)*21([-{[+++]}>(+)*20([-{[+++]}>(+)*19([-{[+++]}>(+)*18([-{[+++]}>(+)*17([-{[+++]}>(+)*16([-{[+++]}>(+)*15([-{[+++]}>(+)*14([-{[+++]}>(+)*13([-{[+++]}>])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999])%999)*-1
03:43:05 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_death_to_defence: 39.9
03:43:12 <ais523> it drops /that far/ if I add a simple antishudder?
03:43:51 <ais523> !bfjoust death_to_defence http://sprunge.us/NIFA
03:43:54 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_death_to_defence: 41.1
03:44:33 <ais523> I got that antishudder from waterfall3; it's a bit long, but it's tried and tested
03:45:08 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
03:45:44 <elliott> I see it loses to counterpoke
03:46:01 <elliott> ais523: you should try using that as the clear loop in an existing good program or something
03:46:35 <ais523> but none of my recent existing good programs would benefit from it
03:46:51 <ais523> except perhaps counterpoke
03:47:00 <elliott> the game hasn't had enough modification and blending of other people's programs for ages
03:47:07 <ais523> but the amazing score here doesn't seem to be due to the clear loop
03:47:20 <elliott> well, you said it was a drop-in to another program
03:47:23 <elliott> which is why I suggested that
03:47:25 <ais523> it's just a simple fast rush program which doesn't have to worry about defence
03:48:12 <ais523> !bfjoust death_to_defence_with_a_normal_clear_loop (>+++)*4(>---)*4((-)*20<)*4((+)*20<)*4(+)*30(>)*8(>(+)*19[-])*21
03:48:15 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_death_to_defence_with_a_normal_clear_loop: 38.1
03:48:39 <ais523> !bfjoust death_to_defence_with_a_normal_clear_loop <
03:48:42 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_death_to_defence_with_a_normal_clear_loop: 0.0
03:48:46 <elliott> you misinterpreted me though
03:48:52 <elliott> i did not mean s/dtd's clear loop/someone else's/
03:49:19 <ais523> someone else's program =~ s/clear loop/dtd's clear loop/
03:49:20 <elliott> 04:21 <ais523> but the problem is that you can just drop its clear loop into something else
03:50:06 <ais523> oh, it's also important that the 999 is not even approximately divisible by 256
03:50:14 <ais523> or you can create a modified anticipation to beat it
03:50:34 <ais523> …999 is sort-of divisble by 256, isn't it
03:50:35 <myndzi> sounds like you just want something relatively prime with a large step
03:50:44 <myndzi> kinda like corewars bomb steps
03:51:07 <ais523> !bfjoust death_to_defence http://sprunge.us/UgLO
03:51:08 <elliott> ais523: pick the number least divisible by 256
03:51:10 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_death_to_defence: 32.6
03:51:16 <ais523> what did I do wrong there?
03:51:24 <ais523> !bfjoust death_to_defence http://sprunge.us/NIFA
03:51:27 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_death_to_defence: 40.4
03:51:34 <ais523> not that large of hill effects
03:51:43 <ais523> that's the one that was scoring 41 earlier, hill effects have pushed it down to 40
03:52:25 <ais523> it seems to be winning just by out-decoying everyone else
03:53:00 <ais523> it is kind-of vulnerable to pokes, though
03:53:42 <ais523> oh well, that'll just mean more points for counterpoke :D
03:55:06 <myndzi> you're going for the triforce of bfjoust
03:55:18 <myndzi> it's like i'll form the head!
03:55:37 <elliott> quintopia: we need yr scoring system btw
03:55:54 <elliott> ais523: so does it really beat every defence strategy?
03:56:07 <ais523> that I know of, at least
03:56:21 <ais523> and anything that relies on locks that only work against one type of clear loop, it beats
03:58:25 <ais523> !bfjoust death_to_defence http://sprunge.us/XUOQ
03:58:28 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_death_to_defence: 49.4
03:58:32 <ais523> trying out something that skips zeros
03:59:03 <ais523> anyway, it beats it by changing strategy after a clear has failed for too long
04:00:24 <ais523> !bfjoust death_to_defence http://sprunge.us/Rbdi
04:00:27 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_death_to_defence: 52.1
04:00:31 <ais523> tweaks for very long tapes
04:01:08 <myndzi> [..+++++------] is very distinctive looking :)
04:01:26 <myndzi> it's like LASERS PEW PEW
04:01:27 <ais523> myndzi: it's an anti-shudder
04:01:38 <myndzi> i know.. i invented them! ;p
04:01:47 <ais523> it's not up into the 70s
04:01:54 <ais523> and it's basically a good old-fashioned slow rush program
04:02:07 <ais523> using a 2pass decoy setup (the first 2/3 of 3pass)
04:02:18 <elliott> ais523: less than .5 before you're at #4
04:02:39 <elliott> (though be careful of over-fitting...)
04:03:18 <myndzi> probably shifting scores?
04:03:23 <elliott> david_werecat: probably as a result of hill effects caused by new programs
04:03:33 <ais523> all the good poke programs beat death_to_defence
04:03:42 <ais523> I need to put some sort of antipoking in, I guess
04:07:33 <ais523> !bfjoust death_to_defence http://sprunge.us/AdUJ
04:07:37 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_death_to_defence: 51.0
04:07:37 <ais523> this'll probably drop the score
04:07:43 <ais523> but not by much, it seems
04:08:01 <ais523> !bfjoust death_to_defence http://sprunge.us/Rbdi
04:08:04 <ais523> didn't give it any new wins, anyway
04:08:04 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_death_to_defence: 52.1
04:08:07 <ais523> so it's not really worth doing
04:09:17 <ais523> !bfjoust death_to_defence http://sprunge.us/cMiQ
04:09:21 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_death_to_defence: 45.8
04:09:26 <ais523> !bfjoust death_to_defence http://sprunge.us/Rbdi
04:09:29 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_death_to_defence: 52.1
04:10:30 <ais523> dtd and counterpoke have most (all?) of the programs covered between them
04:12:50 <david_werecat> Not quite, Gregor_ill_bet_you_have_four_decoys, ais523_undermine, atehwa_test_blah and david_werecat_juggernaut beat both of them
04:13:17 <ais523> …how does undermine beat death_to_defence? I'll have to check
04:13:54 <ais523> ill_bet_you_have_four_decoys is surprisingly hard to beat with a good program, you need at least four decoys to be competitive nowadays :)
04:14:48 <ais523> seems undermine simply does it with tripwire avoidance
04:16:41 <ais523> !bfjoust death_to_defence http://sprunge.us/gZUM
04:16:42 <myndzi> Score for ais523_death_to_defence: 14.8
04:16:44 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_death_to_defence: 49.8
04:17:32 <ais523> trying something experimental
04:17:48 <ais523> !bfjoust death_to_defence http://sprunge.us/NiFH
04:17:51 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_death_to_defence: 47.8
04:18:42 <ais523> !bfjoust death_to_defence http://sprunge.us/WSZF
04:18:45 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_death_to_defence: 41.2
04:19:08 <ais523> !bfjoust death_to_defence http://sprunge.us/Rbdi
04:19:11 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_death_to_defence: 52.1
04:19:31 <ais523> (I was adding in some tripwire avoidance, but it didn't help against enough and hurt against lots more)
04:20:20 <ais523> !bfjoust defend7 http://sprunge.us/BTjd
04:20:23 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_defend7: 11.8
04:20:27 <ais523> let's see how it works nowadays
04:21:04 <ais523> !bfjoust defend5 http://sprunge.us/DVdY
04:21:07 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_defend5: 10.5
04:21:15 <elliott> remember when your name wasn't autoprefixed
04:21:33 <ais523> it's a bad day to be a defence program
04:22:16 <ais523> !bfjoust tripstridewire (>)*9[(-----[+]>)*9[[+]]]>>[>(-----[+]>)*11[[+]]]>>[>(-----[+]>)*13[[+]]]>>[>(-----[+]>)*13[[+]]]>>[>(-----[+]>)*11[[+]]]>>[>(-----[+]>)*9[[+]]]>>[>(-----[+]>)*7[[+]]]>>[>(-----[+]>)*5[[+]]]>>[>(-----[+]>)*3[[+]]]>>[>(-----[+]>)*1[[+]]]>[[+]]>[[+]]
04:22:19 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_tripstridewire: 20.4
04:22:19 <ais523> trying some old programs again
04:22:23 <ais523> to see if they even touch the hill
04:23:15 <elliott> ais523: you don't remember
04:23:21 <elliott> people just added programs without any name prefix
04:23:25 <ais523> !bfjoust speedy1 >>>>>>>>>(-[+[+[---]]]>)*21
04:23:27 <elliott> then we started prefixing our names manually
04:23:28 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_speedy1: 20.1
04:23:30 <ais523> was that before or after the hill was upside-down?
04:23:41 <elliott> first few days or week or so
04:24:00 <ais523> so it seems we're not facing hill effects really; the programs have just got /that/ much better
04:26:53 <david_werecat> I guess it would be possible to get an archive of all the old programs from the repository?
04:28:56 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
04:29:01 <elliott> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot.hg/
04:29:26 <elliott> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot.hg/index.cgi/shortlog/9a683e7e8d50 the beginning
04:29:54 <elliott> ais523: http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot.hg/index.cgi/rev/45eec5187d79 people named them like this
04:30:09 <elliott> looks like you might have started the "nick_program" thing
04:30:49 <elliott> !bfjoust ais523_vff_experimental >>>++++<----<++++<(-)*127(--++)*2500[[[>[---]+]+]+]
04:30:52 <EgoBot> Score for elliott_ais523_vff_experimental: 21.1
04:33:11 <elliott> ais523_death_to_defence.bfjoust vs elliott_ais523_vff_experimental.bfjoust
04:33:11 <elliott> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -42
04:33:11 <elliott> ais523_death_to_defence.bfjoust wins.
04:33:45 <ais523> vibration_fool_fast :)
04:34:00 <ais523> and yes, that's a defence program, what did you /expect/ to happen?
04:34:20 * ais523 adds flexible timer clear to the wiki
04:35:12 <ais523> I think in future, the main use of defensive elements will be for things like skyscraper
04:35:28 <ais523> which feel like a defence program, but doesn't use any sort of lock (although it /does/ use a tripwire)
04:38:24 <elliott> so, BF Joust lives another day?
04:38:36 <ais523> elliott: david_werecat_juggernaut.bfjoust vs elliott_ais523_vff_experimental.bfjous t<><><><><><><><><><>< <><><><><><><><><><>< 2elliott_ais523_vff_experimental.bfjoust wins.
04:38:42 <ais523> it's not hopelessly broken, just shallower than I'd like
04:38:45 <elliott> ais523: IMO, death_to_defence is probably notable enough for a description even if it hasn't gotten to #1
04:38:58 <ais523> I put its main strategy on the wiki in the strategies section
04:39:04 <elliott> someone should tell G. that BF Joust is still being innovated on today :)
04:39:09 <ais523> well, the one that doesn't really matter
04:39:12 <ais523> elliott: you can if you like
04:39:17 <elliott> btw, your code block is broken
04:39:38 <ais523> that's intentional, if you mean the line of non-codeblock in it
04:43:12 <ais523> well, it's a wiki, if there's a formatting you'd prefer that isn't misleading you can fix it
04:45:40 <elliott> "Note that no defense programs are simple (the very nature of a defensive strategy makes this so)"
04:46:08 <myndzi> he doesn't mean the strategy is simple
04:46:11 <myndzi> but the implementation
04:46:15 <myndzi> which is certainly true
04:46:17 <elliott> well all the defence concepts are as simple as attack concepts
04:46:28 <elliott> it's just that you need complex implementations to be effective in practice -- but the same applies to attack too
04:46:28 <myndzi> but he didn't say the strategy is simple
04:46:31 <myndzi> he said the *programs* are
04:46:38 <elliott> ok, it's the parenthical that's wrong then
04:46:48 <elliott> (but plenty of defence programs are simple, they're just bad too; same as attack)
04:46:56 <myndzi> the nature of a defensive *strategy* makes defense *programs* complex
04:47:22 <myndzi> i don't think anyone would count shudder-class programs as "defensive" even though that's technically true
04:47:35 <myndzi> but it's possible to write effective attack programs much more simply than equally effective defense programs
04:47:37 <elliott> in fact, so does the article
04:47:54 <myndzi> just saying, i took the meaning of the sentence and it makes sense to me :)
04:51:01 <ais523> elliott: leave vff_experimental on the leaderboard, btw
04:51:19 <ais523> it beating dreadnought is just too hilarious
04:52:33 <ais523> if only by the smallest of margins that doesn't involve a draw
04:55:35 <david_werecat> So that anti-triplock is still causing suicides off the tape...
04:58:59 <ais523> working around triplocks can be awkward if you haven't had practice
05:01:12 <david_werecat> I've tried double bracketing the main clear loop, but it hurts the score.
05:01:44 <ais523> there's a lazy way, which is just to, just after the place in your code where a cell is cleared, put a > then copy your entire attack loop there
05:03:36 <david_werecat> That's what I tried. I'm still working out a better way to do that.
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05:07:07 <lambdabot> Plugin `tell' failed with: Prelude.head: empty list
05:08:48 <lambdabot> http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/COMMANDS
05:08:50 <ion> > join ping
05:09:07 <lambdabot> http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/COMMANDS
05:09:41 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at chara...
05:09:47 <lambdabot> http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/COMMANDS
05:09:57 <ais523> it seems lambdabot ignores stray BOMs, but not stray zwnjs
05:09:59 <lambdabot> http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/COMMANDS
05:10:15 <david_werecat> !bfjoust dreadnought http://tinypaste.com/af8efaef/save.php?hash=56c3bf21ce6661a6bc28e93a41a73e7c
05:10:19 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_dreadnought: 70.1
05:10:29 <shachaf> !bfjoust ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++>-
05:10:29 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
05:10:36 <shachaf> !bfjoust HI ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++>-
05:10:38 <EgoBot> Score for shachaf_HI: 10.7
05:11:31 <ais523> david_werecat: draw with skyscraper?
05:11:35 <EgoBot> Score for myndzi_lol: 11.0
05:11:54 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
05:12:02 <EgoBot> Score for shachaf_myndzi: 7.9
05:12:29 <ais523> and the losses are counterpoke, omega_turtle, and waterfall3
05:12:46 <ais523> insidious wasn't likely to stay beating it for long
05:13:32 <ais523> myndzi: lol presumably works better than a nop only against turtles?
05:14:15 <ais523> there has to be some reason why flag at 1 beats flag at 128
05:14:36 <myndzi> stuff that ignores or decoys the first nonzero
05:14:43 <myndzi> or just overwrites it without noticing maybe
05:14:52 <myndzi> or isn't specifically designed to attack 128
05:14:59 <myndzi> or just a little luck ;)
05:15:31 <ais523> it'd have to be zeroing the cell in order to distinguish 1 from 128
05:15:51 <ais523> in order to avoid winning at that point, it'd have to unzero it again the next cycle
05:16:28 <myndzi> there's plenty of-- around
05:16:35 <myndzi> i was just curious what would happen
05:16:55 <ais523> !bfjoust stupid_vibration >(+-)*-1
05:17:00 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_stupid_vibration: 6.5
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05:18:03 <ais523> hmm, challenge: write a program that beats exactly one other program on exactly one length and polarity (and loses to every other program on every length/polarity)
05:19:08 <myndzi> i was gonna make two programs ;)
05:19:12 <myndzi> but even then it's kinda hard
05:19:38 <ais523> exactly one length is easy, but with polarity, not so easy
05:20:08 <ais523> !bfjoust >>>>>>-[>>>(-)*128](>)*1000
05:20:09 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
05:20:14 <ais523> !bfjoust marginally_wins >>>>>>-[>>>(-)*128](>)*1000
05:20:17 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_marginally_wins: 1.5
05:20:48 <ais523> wtf, it's actually /beating/ some programs
05:20:54 <ais523> !bfjoust marginally_wins >>>>>>-[>>>(-)*128](<)*1000
05:20:57 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_marginally_wins: 1.5
05:21:14 <ais523> !bfjoust marginally_wins >>>>>>-[(<)*1000]>>>(-)*128
05:21:17 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_marginally_wins: 0.0
05:21:49 <ais523> !bfjoust marginally_wins >>>>>>--[(<)*1000]>>>(-)*128
05:21:52 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_marginally_wins: 0.0
05:22:19 <ais523> beats counterpoke on length 12 kettle
05:22:29 <ais523> and no other single-case wins anywhere
05:22:45 <ais523> that wasn't too hard to construct…
05:22:59 <ais523> (pretty interesting given that it can't even flag-clear on length 12 kettle
05:23:02 <ais523> myndzi: non-reversed polarity
05:23:33 <elliott> they're both as normal as each other
05:23:43 <myndzi> one is the opposite of what you wrote though
05:23:44 <elliott> that's why you need neutral names, like sieve, and kettle
05:23:48 <elliott> ais523: actually, kettle is reversed, I think
05:23:57 <elliott> pretty sure it's "sieve and kettle", "normal and reversed"
05:24:02 <myndzi> i'd totally just call em positive and negative
05:24:08 <myndzi> negative = opposite of
05:24:11 <elliott> myndzi: that's really confusing
05:24:14 <elliott> because it works both ways round
05:24:19 <myndzi> only if you never took grade 1 math
05:24:34 <myndzi> you mean *combinations*?
05:24:51 <HackEgo> 698) <Phantom_Hoover> Dinner? At two? <fizzie> It's four here already. See, UTC+2. You need to add a couple of hours. Or was that subtract? I can never get those straight.
05:24:59 <myndzi> i don't remember what grade they taught the negative sign in
05:25:10 <ais523> beautiful: http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/egojsout/?l=2f375a1d0bc6000e54ea3e14763f90dd87b5888c&r=ee72388f6d3cd927ddb7762853c3b4275c920ec1&t=12
05:25:15 <ais523> the (-)*128 is completely irrelevant
05:25:26 <ais523> unless it affects the behaviour of some program, which is unlikely
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06:19:43 <zzo38> Which calendar and year numbering do you like? * BC/AD * BCE/CE * Discordian * Stardate * Holocene * Tropical year * UNIX * Pax * International Fixed * Astronomical year numbering * Mayan long count * Chinese * ISO week date *
06:26:49 <Sgeo> elliott, no way you don't know what I
06:26:52 <Sgeo> I'm talking about
06:27:32 <Sgeo> I once promised that I'd modify an open-source script that was competing with my product, I never got around to it
06:27:36 <Sgeo> Maybe I should do that soon
06:27:48 <Sgeo> Person thought that I was reselling the open-source script, but I wasn't
06:28:56 <Sgeo> https://www.xstreetsl.com/modules.php?name=Marketplace&file=discussions&ItemID=374979 click cancel
07:02:54 <zzo38> That kind of Earth Standard Time is too strange
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07:10:53 <zzo38> Is mathematics a lifeform?
07:10:56 <itidus20> zzo38: i'm looking into something interesting(debatable) which might be up your alley(debatable). warioware diy ... being a proprietry game about making games i know it's not extremely relevant here(debatable), but it's <insert gibberish term>
07:11:39 <zzo38> itidus20: I don't know.
07:12:54 <itidus20> i guess nintendo games are more on my level than esolangs.. but i am studying how it actually works..
07:14:20 <elliott> `addquote <zzo38> Is mathematics a lifeform? <itidus20> zzo38: i'm looking into something interesting(debatable) which might be up your alley(debatable). warioware diy ... being a proprietry game about making games i know it's not extremely relevant here(debatable), but it's <insert gibberish term> <zzo38> itidus20: I don't know.
07:14:28 <HackEgo> 843) <zzo38> Is mathematics a lifeform? <itidus20> zzo38: i'm looking into something interesting(debatable) which might be up your alley(debatable). warioware diy ... being a proprietry game about making games i know it's not extremely relevant here(debatable), but it's <insert gibberish term> <zzo38> itidus20: I don't know.
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08:26:31 <Taneb> `welcome UN_MANITAS_MADRI
08:26:34 <HackEgo> UN_MANITAS_MADRI: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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09:23:43 <itidus20> "Looked for a secret base in a dream" http://oi46.tinypic.com/16leoo3.jpg
09:27:49 <fungot> itidus20: i thought nne? fnord?) altitude info and whatnot... i gave up
09:28:05 <fungot> itidus20: i also seem to forget it. the reason member confused me is that i need
09:31:35 <itidus20> it's almost like advertising a restaurant
09:31:55 <itidus20> welcome to the home of fried chicken
09:32:23 <olsner> the main branch of a big chain of boiled cat restaurants
09:35:53 -!- qfr has left.
09:36:12 <itidus20> Language C/C++ Perl PHP Java/-Script brainfuck Engrish
09:37:06 <itidus20> its from the same website as the link to the home of the boiled cat
09:37:18 <itidus20> i am surprised to see brainfuck on the list though
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09:49:05 <itidus20> theres no way these translations are remotely accurate
09:52:53 <itidus20> "I had come out a rainbow on my way home last Friday. I say it's large enough for the first time may not fit on the camera can see the both ends are rare."
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09:55:14 <itidus20> and... i'll try to wrap it up with "Yesterday was the end of student drinking in pairs. Grilled chicken pieces and a thorn bird of fear. Students are high 6,500 yen."
10:01:07 <itidus20> "Made to seek good and quiet. It is the only resonance in trouble. What a little anxious Woonsocket"
10:01:55 <olsner> enjoy your matrix of woonsocketry
10:02:26 <itidus20> this is not good for my thinking
10:02:48 <itidus20> but it's incredibly fun for my imagination
10:04:13 <itidus20> oh. this diary entry is titled "Idol collage which is made by superimposing the photo of a celebrity's face on a pornographic image by using a computer [2008/11/01 00:44:00]"
10:05:20 -!- ais523 has set topic: warning: "hi" is frequently misinterpreted as a threat | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
10:06:39 <HackEgo> 6) <Quas_NaArt> His body should be given to science. <GKennethR> He's alive :P <GreenReaper> Even so. \ 9) <Madelon> Lil`Cube: you had cavity searches? <Lil`Cube> not yet <Lil`Cube> trying to thou, just so I can check it off on my list of things to expirence \ 13) <Warrigal> "You're at that stage in your life where you're going to want to do some things in private." --my mom \ 16) <fizzie after embedding some of his
10:07:03 <olsner> hmm, that was not entirely successful
10:07:13 <HackEgo> 460) <NihilistDandy> Non sequitur is my forte <NihilistDandy> On-topic discussion is my piano <Taneb> Bowls of sugary breakfast cereal is my mezzoforte <Taneb> Full fat milk is my pianissimo <Taneb> On which note, I'm hungry
10:12:18 <olsner> nice usability failure, they have a contact lens working as a camera and screen, and when it recognizes the face of an assassin he gets a message
10:13:37 <olsner> hmm, "usability"? not sure, but fail anyway
10:19:25 <olsner> nice that they included simon pegg for comic relief though
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10:38:33 <rszeno> i usualy read logs before i join the channel, but not today
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10:42:23 <ais523> we've been advancing the state of BF Joust
10:42:40 <ais523> david_werecat has been making programs that beat almost everything, I've been coming up with creative ways not to lose to them
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10:54:00 <rszeno> is a zero sum game, Nash equilibrium?
10:54:56 <rszeno> i have no idea how to define the problem to be solved
10:55:23 <Taneb> I don't think it's a Nash equilibrium
10:57:00 <Taneb> But I'm far from an expert at Game Theory
10:57:27 <ais523> rszeno: a nash equilibrium is a set of strategies a game, where no single player can get better off by changing their strategy
10:57:32 <ais523> *strategies for a game
10:57:56 <ais523> as in, given that all the other players follow their plan, you should follow yours too
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10:59:02 <rszeno> yes but sometime is possible to exists a strategy to win all times, in same cases
11:01:30 <rszeno> i don't remember the name of the game, something with 0 and 1, three in a line or more. I remember the one who start first and follow a 'plan' always win
11:02:59 <ais523> if you have a strategy that always wins, that's a nash equilibrium for you, no matter what your opponent is planning, as you can't be any better off than winning
11:03:12 <ais523> and it's a nash equilibrium for them too, as they can't do any better than losing
11:03:20 <ais523> so you have a nash equilibrium altogether
11:13:22 <rszeno> maybe i'm wrong but some constraint imposed by bf joust rules like number of cycles 100000, set of input chars, and aditional the lenght of the program could make possible to generate, brute force, a huge number of possible programs( strategies in our case) and select or at least analize them
11:14:47 <rszeno> will too many combination?
11:16:20 <rszeno> when i see a interesting 'problem' i always look for a possible solution
11:35:27 <Taneb> The first bit of my computer arrived today
11:43:17 <Gregor> There is no feeling worse than needing to buy something, but being awake before the store is open.
11:47:13 <olsner> how about waking up after it closes?
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11:49:51 <HackEgo> ssue: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
11:50:49 <Taneb> Do you live in Hexham?
11:51:03 <Taneb> Do you live in Finland?
11:51:31 <Taneb> How did you get into esolangs?
11:52:02 <ssue> by someone's introduction
11:52:09 <ssue> actually... in here
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12:01:50 <Taneb> What's your favourite esoang?
12:03:07 <ssue> I think "aheui" made by puzzlet is my best favourite
12:03:41 <ssue> it's made of "Hangul" characters
12:03:54 <ssue> but not in Korean language, actually
12:03:55 <Taneb> I've never used that one
12:04:40 <ssue> http://puzzlet.org/personal/wiki.php/%EC%95%84%ED%9D%AC~Specification here you can find more details
12:04:57 <Taneb> http://dangermouse.net/esoteric/piet.html
12:07:04 <ssue> looks interesting
12:07:42 <ssue> colours are the source code?
12:08:08 <ais523> source code's in image form, indeed
12:08:14 <ais523> so it makes sense to lex it as colours
12:08:24 <ais523> (although it's ceased to be color-related by the time it's parsed)
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13:48:10 <Phantom_Hoover> OK so the HIB Psychonauts binary is crashing with a floating point error and I can find no documentation of this anywhere else on the internet.
13:48:10 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
14:32:25 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: probably it's dividing by zero
14:34:03 <olsner> try using a number that is not zero
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14:47:22 <olsner> if that's what you want, sure
14:47:34 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I was about to download that but it's 4G
14:47:38 <ais523> I'll wait until later, I think
14:47:49 <ais523> when I can better figure out space management and have a more reliable connection
14:48:37 <Phantom_Hoover> It's so liberating to have a hard drive that I'm basically never going to have to grub for space on.
14:48:53 <Phantom_Hoover> I remember when I was stuck on the family laptop and there was like 2G of free space.
14:51:02 <fizzie> There are too many games in the Bundle. I did a bit of LIMBO yesterday, and the intro of Bastion today, but haven't gotten to Psychonauts at all.
14:52:05 <Phantom_Hoover> That floating-point bug happens like right at the start of actual gameplay.
14:52:27 <Phantom_Hoover> The shortness may come from my superfluous free time, though.
14:52:53 <fizzie> Based on the intro bit, I kinda-sorta suck at it, but that's what I do when it comes to anything at all actiony.
14:55:07 <Phantom_Hoover> I spent most of it alternating between mashing space and the mouse buttons with the machete and musket and running away and sniping with the machete's alt-fire thing.
14:58:48 <fizzie> I'm not sure what space does, I've been playing it with a pad.
15:01:47 <Phantom_Hoover> It does that dodge thing which results in some good old Zelda-style "roll across the map" action.
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15:08:15 <fizzie> They're A, B and X, respectively. Well, cross, circle and square physically, but it says "gamepad not detected" unless I enable the X360 controller fakery mode.
15:20:35 <fizzie> I've just used the Steam versions.
15:27:01 <david_werecat> !bfjoust dreadnought http://tinypaste.com/caab8d2c/save.php?hash=da1da4f0baff73448dd35a69484e9670
15:27:04 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_dreadnought: 71.4
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15:40:02 * Taneb reached Axe Proficiency level 1!
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15:52:55 <olsner> ... looks like Taneb exercised his Axe Proficiency on his internet connection
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16:06:44 <fizzie> david_werecat: Did you just win?
16:07:38 <fizzie> Oh, okay. I tend not to check.
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17:33:31 <Taneb> zzo38, some of these functions in Prelude.Generalize are too general to describe easily with my limited describing ability
17:38:40 <zzo38> Taneb: O, well, it could be described as a generalize version of something else, giving some examples of the generalizations
17:38:56 <Taneb> choice and count right now
17:41:22 <zzo38> Both of those names are based on Parsec but for any Alternative
17:41:48 <Taneb> This is the downside of never having used Parsec, heh
17:42:28 <zzo38> The type is too restrictive f should be Applicative rather than Alternative; I will fix that in next version.
17:42:34 <Taneb> There are a couple of very small changes I'd make, mostly using liftM instead of fmap in a couple of places to make the thingy smaller
17:42:57 <zzo38> I mean the constraint
17:43:08 <Taneb> That's what I was talking about too
17:43:50 <Taneb> So, (<>>=) and (>>==) don't have the Functor requirement
17:44:25 <Taneb> Also, please put null next to unnull in the export list?
17:44:30 <zzo38> I just dislike that Functor is not a superclass of Monad
17:44:35 <zzo38> Taneb: OK, I will move that too
17:45:17 <Taneb> The Functor/Monad problem is a problem, but it's a problem
17:45:24 <Taneb> That made a lot more sense in my head
17:45:48 <Taneb> It's a problem that exists, and the problem being fixed won't break anything
17:46:09 <zzo38> I moved unnull/null in the export list and changed the constraint of count
17:48:21 <zzo38> I will upload the changes later today
17:51:33 <zzo38> But show me what you have so far?
17:53:01 <Taneb> I've just begun changing my style, because I'm indecisive and excessively terse
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17:56:35 <quintopia> david_werecat: what did you change with that last sub?
17:57:18 <david_werecat> I improved the anti-triplock code, which also made it much faster.
17:58:24 <quintopia> i coldnt download it Phantom_Hoover
17:58:39 <quintopia> but i dont have enough ram to run it anyway
17:58:56 <quintopia> the torrnent kept sayingpermissin denied from thewebseed
17:58:57 <Phantom_Hoover> It even tells you when you click the direct download link, use the torrent.
17:58:58 <david_werecat> The anti-triplock is a dual nested loop that leads into a copy of the clear routine.
17:59:08 <Taneb> zzo38, why is option called option, rather than, eg., snocA?
17:59:35 <quintopia> couldnt download it by either method
17:59:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Also how do you not have the ram to run a 7-year-old games.
18:00:30 <Phantom_Hoover> ...did computers normally have more ram than that in 2005?
18:00:49 <quintopia> the windows version onlyreqires 512mb
18:00:56 <quintopia> which is all that wasavailable then
18:01:13 <Phantom_Hoover> I see your netbook also has a very unreliable spacebar.
18:01:31 <quintopia> yeah my phonne space bar is teh suck
18:01:51 <quintopia> the keys near itdouble tap or dont tap sometimes too
18:04:32 <zzo38> Taneb: It is called option simply because that is its name in Parsec.
18:17:53 <Phantom_Hoover> http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2012:Giant_sperm_whale
18:18:17 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't care how, I am going to do this. At some point. Maybe.
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18:35:23 <zzo38> Taneb: I could add snocA as another name for the same thing if it is helpful
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18:44:43 <zzo38> OK, I have done that.
18:47:07 <david_werecat> [14:35:18] <zzo38> Taneb: I could add snocA as another name for the same thing if it is helpful
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18:47:11 <david_werecat> [14:41:53] <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, I would find it extremely helpful.
18:47:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Dude the lines are right above, did you have to paste oh all right.
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19:05:47 <zzo38> Taneb: I have added snocA, it is the same as option.
19:12:33 <Taneb> "My god, there are bits in this image! Maybe it's a code?"
19:13:08 <Taneb> As opposed to regular sperm whales?
19:23:23 <quintopia> anyone here have any BTC i can buy?
19:24:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Whilst conducting a financial transaction with a random stranger over IRC is easy.
19:26:39 <Phantom_Hoover> I am genuinely curious whom you would trust to actually pay significant amounts of money.
19:27:27 <fizzie> Bitcoins, I heard they're only used by criminals for illegal things.
19:29:13 <fizzie> Like for buying drugs and I think assassinations?
19:30:11 <fizzie> A pretentious programmer assassin.
19:30:24 <quintopia> who will sell me BTC for an assassin
19:30:45 <quintopia> if the transaction does not go through, i send the assassin after you
19:32:26 <quintopia> i would trust ais to complete the transaction
19:32:46 <quintopia> people who are easily stalked by my assassin
19:33:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, OK I'm going to try a DF worldgen the same as previously except this time I will set the megabeast count to $ridiculous.
19:33:56 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Or perhaps even to BTCridiculous?
19:34:16 <monqy> the most ridiculous
19:38:44 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, see how many cities get covered in ambergris
19:41:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, oh, fun fact: children born to members of hostile civs in your fort have a 50/50 chance of being on your side from some reason.
19:41:33 <Phantom_Hoover> I think this might be exploitable to use elf children as cannon fodder.
19:41:57 <Taneb> "CAPTURE THE PREGNANT FEMALES! HALF OF THERE OFFSPRING SHALL BE /OURS/"
19:42:36 <Phantom_Hoover> I only found this out because I was playing Fortress Defence and some of the added civs breed like crazy.
19:42:39 <Taneb> with meaning agaist here, I presume?
19:43:09 <Taneb> As opposed to alongside
19:43:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Since I used prisoners for target practice they actually did pretty well when given fire support.
19:43:47 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, challenge: make a fortress populated entirely by elves
19:44:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, you can't give them orders or anything and ISTR that they don't play nicely with dorfs.
19:45:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Although hmm, these days non-dorf migrants are possible, since they don't all grow from spores right outside the boundaries of your embark zone,.
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19:56:24 <elliott> 11:02:59: <ais523> if you have a strategy that always wins, that's a nash equilibrium for you, no matter what your opponent is planning, as you can't be any better off than winning
19:56:24 <elliott> 11:03:12: <ais523> and it's a nash equilibrium for them too, as they can't do any better than losing
19:56:24 <elliott> 11:03:20: <ais523> so you have a nash equilibrium altogether
19:56:25 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
19:56:31 <elliott> seems trivial it's not, then
19:57:08 <elliott> 12:03:07: <ssue> I think "aheui" made by puzzlet is my best favourite
19:57:11 <elliott> hehe, isn't that lifthrasiir?
19:59:50 <elliott> 19:23:23: <quintopia> anyone here have any BTC i can buy?
20:02:27 <kmc> "The yesod team is trying to provide a PHP solution for web development, written in haskell."
20:04:18 <Taneb> It could be the Microsoft Windows 8 team, writing in Visual J#
20:12:41 <kmc> processing data without loading it all into memory is still an open, controversial problem in Haskell :/
20:12:44 <kmc> http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/u8fe6/response_to_conduit_bugs/
20:14:10 <elliott> 21:02 <kmc> "The yesod team is trying to provide a PHP solution for web development, written in haskell."
20:14:58 <elliott> he's shitting over that entire thread (ok, the thread is mostly shit to start with) with anti-yesod nonsense to the point that even the writer of the conduit bugs post says he's misinterpreting him
20:15:39 <elliott> I think he might have been the person who made that big stink about Yesod on Hacker News a while ago, too (it annoys me that I know this solely because it got on /r/haskell for some godforsaken reason)
20:17:02 <elliott> 21:12 <kmc> processing data without loading it all into memory is still an open, controversial problem in Haskell :/
20:17:07 <elliott> kmc: this is kind of unfair
20:17:20 <elliott> it's easy to do that, just use regular, strict handle IO, the same as you would in any other language
20:17:38 <elliott> (and anyway when you're dealing with something like a socket "loading it all into memory" isn't an option, because it's streaming, so that's not really the problem being solved)
20:18:07 <kmc> it's kind of unfair but kind of fair too
20:19:51 <kmc> interleaving strict handle IO with your logic is a lot more awkward in Haskell than other languages
20:20:17 <kmc> it pushes your code further from nice idiomatic Haskell
20:21:02 <kmc> so the enumeratoritataritaratee drama is relevant to the high level question of "can you do webdev / whatever nicely in idiomatic Haskell"
20:21:09 <zzo38> :kmc: What do you mean by that, exactly?
20:21:21 <zzo38> What does "interleaving strict handle IO with your logic" mean?
20:22:30 <elliott> kmc: Sure it's awkward, but it's still possible.
20:22:33 <kmc> it means every piece of code is an IO action and is like "do { computeFoo; x <- readMoreShit; computeBar x }"
20:22:42 <elliott> And it's, e.g. less awkward than C because of all the concerns you don't have to worry about.
20:22:46 <elliott> (But more awkward than Python or whatever.)
20:23:05 <kmc> "better than C for webdev"
20:23:09 <kmc> what a high bar you've set elliott
20:23:16 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, what's it like?
20:23:19 <elliott> Anyway, it's not as if processing streaming data is all *that* relevant to web dev.
20:23:23 <elliott> Especially if you don't need file uploads.
20:23:37 <kmc> i'm not trying to be the "Haskell is broken, CHECKMATE ATHEISTS" guy
20:23:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Well the most common cause of death seems to be werebeast.
20:23:42 <elliott> Anyway I don't really think the argument is very relevant, but that's mostly because I have a strong position on it :)
20:23:47 <kmc> but i think this is pretty important
20:23:52 <kmc> what's your strong position
20:23:55 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, sounds like inner-city Glasgow
20:24:13 <kmc> there are a lot of tasks which are much easier in Haskell than other languages
20:24:17 <kmc> but there are also some which are much harder
20:24:30 <Phantom_Hoover> In fact I get the impression that basically everyone's either dead from megabeasts, dead from werebeasts, or a werebeast.
20:24:30 <kmc> i gotta go eat lunch now though
20:24:48 <zzo38> kmc: Why does every piece of code need to be IO action? I find that doesn't need like that at all
20:25:57 <Sgeo> Isn't there some library that's supposed to make Webdev in C++ nice?
20:26:01 <Sgeo> (Or is it C, I forget)
20:26:19 <olsner> Sgeo: PHP is written in C, iirc
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20:26:34 <Sgeo> http://www.webtoolkit.eu/wt
20:26:47 <Taneb> olsner, does that count as making it "nice"?
20:27:08 <zzo38> kmc: What is "interleaving strict handle IO"?
20:28:45 <elliott> 21:23 <kmc> what's your strong position
20:29:30 <elliott> I agree with Tekmo a lot more than Snoyman (although I think both of them approach the argument terribly making it essentially fruitless), but I also don't think Tekmo's solution is all that good :P
20:29:41 <elliott> Disagreeing with everyone is usually the best position.
20:30:02 <ion> I disagree.
20:30:04 <olsner> disagreeing with everyone must mean that you're the only one who's right
20:30:33 <monqy> can i disagree with everyone too
20:32:01 <Taneb> No, that'd be stupid
20:34:01 <olsner> monqy: yes, but unfortunately it seems you have to agree with either me or Taneb about whether or not you can disagree with everyone
20:34:19 <Taneb> olsner, no he doesn't
20:34:26 <Taneb> He could take a third option
20:35:25 <Taneb> "No, but it's not stupid"
20:37:56 <olsner> Breaking news from Sweden: "Boy and grandfather seriously injured"
20:38:43 <olsner> oh well, at least the cannibal drug has disappeared from reporting
20:41:10 <olsner> Taneb: I am glad you agree
20:44:03 <zzo38> I have written the "dvi-processing" package which use IO and non-IO together and it doesn't need every piece of code to be an IO action like your example code above, and I don't think any program needs to be like that
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21:46:21 <Sgeo> Was going to write a quick thing in Racket, but I need formatting directives, and it seems like a bit of a pain
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22:19:03 <HackEgo> Hybris: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
22:20:10 <Hybris> Oh, so that's what this is. Like brainfuck?
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22:41:38 <fizzie> That really should say "dong".
22:42:03 <fizzie> ("Haha, you said 'dong'." Okay, maybe not.)
22:45:07 <Sgeo> I did a bad thing
22:45:29 <Sgeo> I accidentally caused my gf to start focusing more on LSL than on Haskell
22:46:22 <Gregor> @hell elliott I'M GIVING YOU HELL
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22:46:44 <fizzie> Very good. Sadly 91n6 is one typo too many.
22:48:36 <fizzie> @73ll f1zz13 ur s0 1337 h4x0r
22:49:26 <fizzie> Is there an expiration time for messages, incidentally?
23:03:28 <itidus20> Sgeo: via google, is that linden scripting language?
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23:39:39 * Sgeo wonders what Shen is like
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00:19:51 <zzo38> readFile' = readFile >=> liftA2 seq (length :: String -> Int) return; -- It appears to work??
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00:52:34 <BlueProtoman> I'm using C++11 to write a program, and I'm using the new constructor inheritance feature. The base class is Brainfuck, and the derived class is Brainfuck_X1. Problem is, when I call "using Brainfuck::Brainfuck", my compiler gives me the error "Brainfuck::Brainfuck names constructor". Any tips?
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04:40:23 <zzo38> ... GUI: Grab the User In-the-face
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06:20:27 <zzo38> If you can read this, thank your teachers.
06:23:03 <zzo38> If you can read this, you aren't blind.
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06:24:04 <pikhq_> (sore wo yomeba, dare in arigatai ka?)[sore wo yomehà, tàre ni arikàtai ka?] (If you can read this, who should you be thankful towards?)
06:24:10 <zzo38> (Unless you used a braille terminal or computer speech or whatever)
06:36:47 <Taneb> What do you call functions that take 2 inputs?
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06:44:18 <Taneb> zzo38, I can't find an example of reSigned differing from transInt
06:47:16 <shachaf> zzo38: Should I resent my teachers if I can't read that?
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07:06:44 <lambdabot> quintopia: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
07:06:48 <zzo38> Taneb: Sorry I may have made a mistake; I put it there for the different ways range errors would happen but I don't know if they would cause the same range error?
07:07:14 <zzo38> shachaf: That is your choice.
07:08:49 <Taneb> transInt (255 :: Word8) :: Int8 == reSigned (255 :: Word8) :: Int8
07:09:20 <zzo38> Taneb: O, so that works. Then there is no reason for both; I may remove reSigned
07:09:23 <Taneb> transInt (-128 :: Int8) :: Word8 == reSigned (-128 :: Int8) :: Word8 == 128
07:10:25 <zzo38> quintopia: I sometimes get money from government and sometimes I do individual job for someone to earn money or barter
07:11:03 <zzo38> What does BTC mean?
07:11:20 <zzo38> Taneb: Don't bother reSigned; just use transInt and I will remove reSigned in the next version
07:11:43 <Taneb> At some point I need to move all my documentation to the newest version, I'm writing it in 2.0
07:12:05 <zzo38> quintopia: No, I don't use that.
07:12:27 <zzo38> Taneb: I will just merge it with whatever changes I make and release that
07:12:48 <Taneb> I'll move it to 3.1 first
07:12:58 <Taneb> Can you explain what getBits does to me?
07:13:14 <Taneb> Or rather, can you explain, to me, what getBits does?
07:17:36 <zzo38> Taneb: Receive the range of bits by high and low specification.
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07:21:14 <zzo38> getBits 3 4 to retrieve low 4 bits, getBits 7 4 to retrieve the next 4 bits after lowest one, etc.
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07:37:32 <zzo38> I will sleep now. Continue to write your question/comment I will review the logs tomorrow.
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07:49:39 <quintopia> @tell ais523 skyscraper sits there with the enemy doing a fake triplock for hundreds of cycles. sure that is ample opportunity to guess polarity and put the last decoys in the direction that costs them the most time?
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10:12:14 <fizzie> Dwarves say "Lali-ho!".
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10:17:01 <itidus20> trust someone with a final fantasy id to understand a final fantasy reference!
10:18:03 <nortti> who has a final fantasy if?
10:18:07 <itidus20> the game of chat trivia isn't as fun when nearly all facts can be obtained from google
10:18:29 <lambdabot> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tidus
10:18:29 <lambdabot> Title: Tidus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
10:19:56 <itidus20> the words final fantasy appears four times in the first paragrah on that page!
10:30:07 <fizzie> FF4 is what I was thinking of, yes, though I am under the impression it's been at least in one of the earlier games, at least in the Japanese text. And in FF9 they say "Rally-Ho".
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10:33:58 <itidus20> In reality I'm not very clued in about final fantasy games.
10:34:24 <itidus20> If 100 is the maximum one can know about final fantasy games, I suppose I'm a 3.
10:35:26 <fizzie> You can measure that by taking the Official Final Fantasy Examination. (Okay, not really.)
10:36:02 <itidus20> it depends how accurate my statement is
10:36:31 <itidus20> unfortunately from a certain point of view a human can only have an infinitessimally small knowledge of final fantasy
10:36:43 <itidus20> just like one cannot know everything about chess
10:36:43 <fizzie> Square-Enix should arrange some sort of a thing where you go to a room in their offices and take a monitored multiple-choice test.
10:37:46 <itidus20> for example, part of the knowledge would be the ability to sit in a room with no information other than whats in your head, and write a complete source code to every final fantasy game ever made
10:38:05 <itidus20> including all graphics and sounds
10:39:20 <fizzie> There's an officially licensed energy drink called "Final Fantasy Potion" that was released as part of the marketing of FFXII.
10:39:44 <fizzie> It's "an herb-drink containing such ingredients as royal jelly, propolis extract, elderberry, chamomile, sage, thyme, hyssop, fennel, marjoram, rosemary, basil, Melissa, carbonated water, caffeine, and artificial coloring. The drink had a unique taste; it was very sweet, but at the same time possessed a bitter herbal aftertaste."
10:41:15 <itidus20> i know the same is true of every game though (as what I just said)
10:41:27 <fizzie> I see they've also made a FFVII themed version of Potion for that game's 10-year anniversary.
10:41:54 <itidus20> but like, a game such as Super Mario Bros.. it would actually be concievable that someone could memorize how to code a replica of that game with complete graphics
10:42:20 <itidus20> not completely perfectly though
10:42:39 <nortti> yeah. all the bugs wouldn't be there
10:42:41 <itidus20> unless it was a savant... then god only knows what is possible
10:43:47 <itidus20> (begins wandering off the topic path...)
10:44:44 <itidus20> well having said that I understand that with project MKULTRA they studied whether they could hypnotize people into memorizing documents after briefly viewing them, and recalling the contents
10:51:48 <fizzie> SMB1 rom is I think 256kbit, so about 79000 decimal digits when represented in that base; digits of pi have been memorized approximately that far. (Guinness record 67890 digits, some reports for 100000, and one guy claims 30 million digits, but obviously didn't list them all; they just asked for random sequences, so it might be a bit dubious.)
10:53:18 <fizzie> (Anyway, there might be large amounts of easier-to-remember material in there.)
10:54:19 <fizzie> Long time to type it all down, though.
10:55:15 <fizzie> It apparently took the Guinness record holder a bit over 24 hours to recite the 67890 digits.
10:57:25 <itidus20> this version of smb1 is 40,976 bytes
10:57:57 <itidus20> i don't know how they figure that :P
10:58:24 <fizzie> Well, that's a bit more than 256kbit, but maybe it's just the format. Anyway, same ballpark.
10:58:47 <itidus20> yeah.. i should look up a more authoritative source
11:01:45 <itidus20> ahh.. this website says it's a 320-kilobit cartridge
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11:02:26 <itidus20> "the game of chat trivia isn't as fun when nearly all facts can be obtained from google"
11:03:10 <fizzie> Hokay. Well, then. At least it's not orders of magnitude more. (I couldn't find the size very fast, so gave up.)
11:04:59 <itidus20> how does one go about calculating the number of decimal digits based on the number of kilobits?
11:05:16 <itidus20> maybe i should solve this myself
11:05:55 <fizzie> Divide the bits by log_2(10).
11:06:09 <itidus20> oh. yeah i was about to say that..
11:09:19 <fizzie> 2^n = 2^(log_2(10)*n/log_2(10)) = (2^log_2(10))^(n/log_2(10)) = 10^(n/log_2(10)) to be explicit about it.
11:12:02 <itidus20> so math is useful for something other than torturing children after all
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11:13:00 <fizzie> The Gameboy Super Mario Land is apparently a 512-kilobit thing, that's kinda funny. It's got less levels and colors and all that.
11:13:29 <itidus20> i guess that's the tidus-fizzie number.. the number of decimal digits required to memorize a complete nintendo game
11:14:16 <itidus20> i suppose, that, it's probably been independantly discovered somewhere out there
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11:17:09 <fizzie> Bah, that Mario wiki doesn't list cartridge size for the non-Super Mario Bros game, or the NES Donkey Kong port. But I wouldn't be surprised if they were smaller.
11:17:14 <itidus20> the rom file seems to contain 327,808 bits
11:17:54 <itidus20> however that is the EU version
11:19:58 <fizzie> 327680 is what 320 kibibits is, the leftover 16 bytes coud be just headers.
11:22:39 <fizzie> According to IGN's list, Duck Hunt came on a 192 kilobit cartridge. That's less than 60k decimal digits, even the lame Guinness pi guy could do that.
11:23:08 <itidus20> so donkey kong and duckhunt same
11:24:03 <itidus20> (24,592kb * 8) / 1024 = 192.125 kilobit cart
11:24:56 <fizzie> 24592kb? That's quite a lot.
11:25:46 <itidus20> phew.. ((24592 * 8)-128) / 1024 = 192
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11:26:50 <Taneb> This is what happens when you try a new client without closing your old one
11:27:02 <fizzie> That was a confusing join sequence.
11:27:15 <fizzie> Now your NAME is KNOWN.
11:27:43 <fizzie> Or at least someone's name.
11:27:45 <ion> YOUR COMPUTER IS BROADCASTING A NAME
11:27:51 <Taneb> My name... was already known by most of the channel?
11:28:04 <ion> taneb: Also, anyone who runs /whois. :-)
11:28:07 <Taneb> So is elliott's, for that matter
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11:28:17 <ion> Yes. elliott’s real name is Eliot.
11:28:47 <itidus20> ok my name is Scott .. now that it is read it cannot be unread
11:29:51 <itidus20> fizzie, the biggest nes rom putting aside action52 turns out to be a game i have never heard of name Metal Slader Glory
11:30:27 <itidus20> well when i say biggest that is in terms of compressed
11:30:42 <fizzie> I read that as "Metal Slander Glory", that sounded even more exciting.
11:31:02 <fizzie> Metal Libel and Slander Glory.
11:32:25 <itidus20> god... what could it be.. how could it go under the radar
11:33:21 <olsner> looks like it has a lot of pictures
11:33:37 <olsner> some kind of slideshow game
11:34:16 <Taneb> Apparently it took so long to develope...
11:34:25 <Taneb> That when it was released, the SNES was out
11:35:27 <Taneb> Can anyone tell me if it is possible to run more than one application from a single terminal at once, and tab between them or something?
11:36:58 <fizzie> "Maximum manufactured ROM Size
11:36:58 <fizzie> The largest single NES game that I know of is Dragonquest 4 / Dragon Warrior 4. It has 1 megabyte of program ROM. Also, the Japanese game Metal Slader Glory has 512K of PRG and 512K of CHR ROM, making it also a full megabyte. Several pirate/unlicenced Famicom games are also pretty large.
11:37:04 <fizzie> Minimum manufactured ROM Size
11:37:06 <fizzie> Although the .NES fileformat deems 16K PRG ROM games as the minimum, there have been some 8K games manufactured, such as Galaxian. Later on, skilled programmers have learned to squeeze better code into even less memory, but nowadays most are probably dead.
11:37:12 <fizzie> From http://nocash.emubase.de/everynes.htm#cartridgeinfo
11:38:15 <fizzie> Taneb: Why not just run screen/some screen-alike?
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11:40:41 <Taneb> I'm seeing if I can survive without a GUI
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11:49:58 <elliott> Someone remind me how MOOs do pronouns. (That is, the specific list of words they decompose a pronoun set into.)
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11:50:31 <elliott> fizzie: Here, I nominate you.
11:50:52 <elliott> 11:28:47: <itidus20> ok my name is Scott .. now that it is read it cannot be unread
11:50:56 <elliott> itidus20: Nnnno. It's itidus.
11:58:48 <fizzie> I don't know about cow pronouns.
12:00:10 <ion> I love the mutated cow special encounter in Fallout.
12:03:26 <elliott> fizzie: Hey, what would you call the abstraction of hit points to things other than hits? "Points" is too vague.
12:03:45 <elliott> (That is, (m,n) where m <= n, m being current ?P and n being maximum ?P.)
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12:06:29 <fizzie> Uh. I don't know. Something about a bound, maybe, since that's what it has, but I don't know. GP for Generic Points. (Not really.)
12:07:16 <elliott> data MonsterStats = MonsterStats
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12:17:07 <HackEgo> Alheris: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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12:51:44 <itidus20> data MonsterStats = MonsterStats{ monHP :: !P, monMP :: !P }
12:55:54 <itidus20> lol "In games, score refers to an abstract quantity associated with a player or team. Score is usually measured in the abstract unit of points, and events in the game can raise or lower the score of different parties."
12:57:18 <itidus20> (gaming) A unit of scoring in a game or competition. [from 18th c.]
13:02:05 <itidus20> Meaning "a unit of score in a game" is first recorded 1746.
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13:07:46 <itidus20> the exact quote appears to be:
13:07:46 <itidus20> 1746 Hoyle Whist (ed. 6) 69 Points. Ten of them make a Game.
13:09:09 <itidus20> bah .. this fool didn't do his research very well
13:10:27 <itidus20> well maybe the research is ok.. however..
13:10:36 <itidus20> 1719 R. Seymour Court Gamester 75 He who reckons most in this Manner [either by greater number of cards, or, in case of equality, of Pips, Ace = 11, Court cards 10 each] is said to win the Point.
13:14:04 <itidus20> "The salient feature of a story, discourse, epigram, joke, etc.; that which gives it application; effective or telling part." ok, just get to the point
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13:56:23 <elliott> "A pecularity of the inPulse watch is that it has one button. Fortunately, roguelikes are turn-based, so by entering commands in morse code one can gain the advantage of the whole keyboard."
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14:04:42 <elliott> Taneb: if you want to do without a gui, then just use the console instead of X :
14:04:46 <elliott> (but I don't recommend it)
14:05:04 <Taneb> This is more of a "see if I can" experience
14:05:31 <Taneb> Just in case I'm sent back to the 70s and don't want to /completely/ terrify them
14:05:45 <elliott> you're taneb you will terrify them regardless
14:06:22 <nortti> elliott: it works actually pretty well
14:06:56 <nortti> Taneb: (spoilers: you can. I have been doing it for some 2 weeks for now)
14:07:09 <Taneb> I'm doing it AS WE SPEAK
14:07:26 <Taneb> I'm running the terminal thing that comes with Ubuntu full screen
14:07:32 <Taneb> I've got the GUI behind it
14:07:41 <nortti> Taneb: I am not running X at all
14:07:55 <nortti> actually I unistalled Xorg
14:08:12 <nortti> when I need X (qemu, hv3) I use xfbdev
14:09:03 <fizzie> I did mostly-no-X for some amount of years, some amount of years back.
14:09:36 <Taneb> I've got byobu going, with irssi, Dwarf Fortress, and links2 open
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14:09:55 <nortti> fizzie: what webbrowser did you run in console? I use link2 -g and I am trying to get netsurf running
14:10:13 <nortti> Taneb: do you use links2 with or without graphics?
14:11:06 <nortti> Taneb: do you have framebuffer working in tty*? do you have gpm?
14:11:29 <Taneb> Seeing as I don't know what either are
14:11:31 <nortti> what is output when you type links -driver ?
14:12:07 <Taneb> links is not installed
14:12:26 <Taneb> links2 -driver wants a parameter
14:12:46 <nortti> Taneb: how do you run link2? on all systems I have used links2 is started with command links
14:12:58 <Taneb> "links2 google.com"?
14:13:33 <nortti> Taneb: ? is part of that command
14:13:34 <fizzie> nortti: I don't remember. It was around the year 2000. I don't think links2 was around, or if it was, not very far.
14:13:44 <Taneb> No quotes or question mark, nortti
14:14:14 <nortti> Taneb: I meant my command
14:14:37 <fizzie> Matrox cards had a very spiffy framebuffer driver.
14:14:49 <Taneb> Unknown graphics driver p
14:15:00 <Taneb> x, fb, directfb and svgalib are supported
14:15:24 <fizzie> Taneb: Do you have a file called "p" there?
14:15:50 <fizzie> Yes. I mean, it sounds like the ? expanded.
14:16:16 <nortti> Taneb: good. your links2 has been compiled with framebuffer support. do you have /dev/fb* and chmod them 666 if you do
14:16:26 <elliott> Taneb: this is pointless since you are not using the console
14:17:31 <Taneb> If someone tells me how to use the console, I'll switch.
14:18:06 <nortti> Taneb: how many lines do you have per screen in console?
14:20:43 <nortti> Taneb: also can you see picture if you try mplayer -vo fbdev moviefile
14:21:04 <fizzie> Oh, fbdev mode-setting was such a mess back then. 'fbset' was very kludgy.
14:21:28 <fizzie> Anyway, mplayer -vo mga was the snazziest thing.
14:21:47 <fizzie> I don't seem to even have fbset installed.
14:22:30 <nortti> I just use vga=794 as kernel boot argument
14:23:30 <fizzie> fbset let you mess around with timings and so on.
14:23:47 <fizzie> I think I had a novelty 666x666 graphics mode in there.
14:24:01 <fizzie> Rather non-square pixels though.
14:30:00 <fizzie> vesafb tended to be real slow when e.g. scrolling, too. I wonder if that's any better nowadays.
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14:33:09 <nortti> fizzie: what distro are you using?
14:35:44 <fizzie> Debian and Ubuntu, nowadays. Either Slackware or Debian in the no-X days, can't recall which one.
14:38:09 <fizzie> Taneb: Was it an adventure?
14:38:44 <Taneb> nortti: no idea on the lines
14:39:27 <fizzie> The 'resize' command will often tell you that.
14:39:59 <Taneb> 26 lines in one of the quadrants
14:40:15 <Taneb> Dunno for the whole thing
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14:41:43 <nortti> Taneb: if it is over 25 it is pretty safe to assume you have working framebuffer of some sort
14:43:33 <fizzie> Or just cat /proc/fb? (Or whatever it was called.)
14:44:13 <fizzie> Okay, technically that just tells if there is a framebuffer device, not whether the console is bound to it.
14:44:13 <nortti> it was /proc/fb (mine shows 0 VESA VGA)
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14:54:07 <fizzie> But is this in X-land, or the console?
14:54:20 <fizzie> 47 is a pretty weird number for an actual console.
14:54:45 <fizzie> Given reasonable video modes and font heights.
14:55:16 <Taneb> Actual console, I think
14:55:16 <nortti> Taneb: I need dimensions of you text console you can access with C-A-F1
14:57:05 <fizzie> Then you can use a MOUSE! Isn't that so 2000s?
14:57:32 <nortti> now try links2 -g -driver fb
14:57:33 <fizzie> Assuming things work out, that is.
15:01:18 <Sgeo> http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/06/02/in-light-of-recent-episodes-cdc-makes-statement-that-zombies-dont-actually-exist/
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15:01:48 <Sgeo> 'I feel like the CDC, they know something is going on, one woman who disagrees with Kendrick said. Theyre trying to cover it up so nobody will panic.
15:01:48 <Sgeo> She also believes in vampires, and that this is all one big conspiracy.'
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15:08:43 <itidus20> Sgeo: well, something to consider is the false sense of authority one might get from reading "the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention a federal agency "
15:09:18 <itidus20> i mean, can federal agencies really be trusted?
15:14:01 <nortti> `run echo 'warning: "hi" is frequently misinterpreted as a threat' > wisdom/hi
15:14:09 <HackEgo> warning: "hi" is frequently misinterpreted as a threat
15:15:06 -!- elliott has set topic: waning | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
15:15:43 <elliott> someone name my simultaneous-turn roguelike
15:15:52 <itidus20> in a front-page article, claiming that the CIA had assassinated foreign leaders, and had illegally conducted surveillance on some 7,000 US citizens involved in the antiwar movement (Operation CHAOS). The CIA had also experimented on people, who unknowingly took LSD (among other things).
15:16:41 <itidus20> Nixon and Haldemann ensured that the CIA's #1 and #2 ranking officials, Richard Helms and Vernon Walters, communicated to FBI Director L. Patrick Gray that the FBI should not follow the money trail from the burglars to the Committee to Re-elect the President, as it would uncover CIA informants in Mexico.
15:17:06 <olsner> itidus20: the CIA also condones making love to goats
15:17:54 <elliott> downside: quokka is hard to type
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15:18:49 <itidus20> The journal Nature reported in 2005 that 70% of FDA panels writing clinical guidelines on prescription drug usage contained at least one member with financial links to drug companies whose products were covered by those guidelines.
15:19:02 <elliott> oh my god are you going on about patents again
15:19:47 <itidus20> CIA, FBI, FDA.. i am not sure who else there is to dig up wikipedia dirt on
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15:42:55 <HackEgo> WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/WiKi/mAiN_PaGe. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On iRc.dAl.nEt.)
15:52:12 <HackEgo> WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/WiKi/mAiN_PaGe. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On iRc.dAl.nEt.)
15:52:18 <HackEgo> WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/WiKi/mAiN_PaGe. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On iRc.dAl.nEt.)
15:54:04 <HackEgo> NoRtTi: WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/WiKi/mAiN_PaGe. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On iRc.dAl.nEt.)
15:54:30 <HackEgo> NORTTI: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.)
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16:14:16 <nortti> @ask Taneb did links2 work in framebuffer?
16:16:30 <lambdabot> echo; msg:IrcMessage {msgServer = "freenode", msgLBName = "lambdabot", msgPrefix = "nortti!~juhani@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi", msgCommand = "PRIVMSG", msgParams = ["#esoteric",":@echo foo"]
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16:17:34 <lambdabot> echo <msg>. echo irc protocol string
16:19:39 <fizzie> It's the only one that actually has an echo.
16:20:14 <fizzie> No, that just prints the argument.
16:20:25 <fizzie> ^echo Does it echo in here?
16:20:26 <fungot> Does it echo in here? Does it echo in here?
16:22:00 -!- PatashuXantheres has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
16:22:11 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `;' \ bash: -c: line 0: `:(){ :|:&; }; :'
16:22:30 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
16:23:43 <nortti> hmm. HackEgo either solves the halting problem, has detection for fokbombs or just stops commands after some time
16:26:00 <fizzie> Everything has a timeout, though that might get stopped earlier due to other limits for all I know.
16:26:13 <fizzie> `run while true; do true; done
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16:26:41 <fizzie> I'm not sure if it says anything when it gets bored.
16:27:42 <nortti> well. I'll just have to find code that solves the halting program somewhere else
16:28:49 <elliott> hmm, to reinvent the wheel or not to reinvent the wheel
16:30:59 <elliott> that want to display on terminals
16:33:01 <nortti> reinvent if you can do better that existing implementations, otherwise don't
16:34:51 <elliott> the question is whether I can be bothered
16:47:49 <nortti> "That is a photo of squids off the coast of Japan using their own water farts to leap right out of the water and into open air."
17:47:59 -!- Taneb has joined.
17:48:25 <lambdabot> Taneb: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
17:48:58 <Taneb> Now I know I can survive in a texty mode like that, I will never use it again
17:51:07 <fizzie> Went to check my tty1, just for funtimes. Didn't know there's a "FATAL: Error inserting vesafb (/lib/modules/.../vesafb.ko): No such device" in there, that's funny.
18:03:20 <Taneb> FUTURE ZZO38: what does loeb do? I can't get it to do anything...
18:05:32 <Taneb> It's not exported, though?
18:06:54 <elliott> Taneb: http://blog.sigfpe.com/2006/11/from-l-theorem-to-spreadsheet.html
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18:13:10 <Taneb> I thought it was going to be about L-systems.
18:14:14 <Taneb> I'm not sure if I understand it, though
18:22:14 <elliott> Taneb: See also http://blog.sigfpe.com/2006/12/tying-knots-generically.html
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18:38:11 <Taneb> Well, I still don't really know what loeb does, but I know that's my own fault, not the fault of loeb
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18:46:30 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
18:46:35 <lambdabot> quintopia said 10h 56m 55s ago: skyscraper sits there with the enemy doing a fake triplock for hundreds of cycles. sure that is ample opportunity to guess polarity and put the last decoys in the
18:46:35 <lambdabot> direction that costs them the most time?
18:47:18 <ais523> quintopia: I don't get it, that's how skyscraper works at the moment
18:52:53 <zzo38> Taneb: I took it from some description somewhere; it can be used for spreadsheet evaluation
18:53:01 <Taneb> Yeah, elliott linked it
18:55:19 <zzo38> Also change the order of exports if you prefer a different order
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19:03:10 <Taneb> At the moment, I'm just playing with the Curry-Howard correspondance
19:03:17 <Taneb> I can't think what Negation is like
19:04:09 <zzo38> Not could be considered (x -> Zero) if Zero is uninhabited type
19:04:11 <elliott> where Void is the type with no values
19:05:13 <ais523> /* Load the data for one screen. Return its data index, in such a way that Splint can see that it's fully defined (data indexes themselves often
19:05:14 <ais523> aren't, so the return value is a more specific type than s->index). *mutters something about Curry/Howard* */
19:05:32 <zzo38> It also works if Zero actually represents the number zero, () represents one, -> for exponent, (,) for multiplication, Either for addition, then zero to the power of zero makes one and zero to the power of anything other than zero makes zero
19:06:00 <zzo38> ais523: In what program is that?
19:06:20 <ais523> zzo38: a platformer engine I'm writing
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19:06:40 <ais523> I'm trying to use Splint to prove there are no memory allocation errors in it; sadly, Splint is too buggy to make a good theorem prover
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19:33:50 <quintopia> ais523: yeah i just realized that it is what it was doing. i was confused because it was failing to do it in some places where it could have, but i realize now that is just a weakness with the polarity detection, not the strategy
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19:36:30 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/TSOU
19:36:40 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 0.0
19:37:19 <Taneb> Maybe failure to read properly?
19:37:51 <quintopia> yeah i dunno. it shouldnt be much longer than the one that was already in there
19:38:19 <Taneb> Like, maybe EgoBot had an internet blip
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19:39:45 <quintopia> i bet it has to do with the massive failure my terminal had when i was pasting it in
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19:43:07 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/hCEj
19:43:10 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 0.0
19:43:34 <ais523> unmatched paren, or something?
19:44:04 <quintopia> how do i locate the character egojsout says it's at
19:45:18 <quintopia> what text editor happily says "oh here's the context around character 36866!
19:46:38 <quintopia> ais523: do you have a copy of the old version?
19:47:23 <quintopia> i think it'll be easier to make the changes again than track down the missing character
19:47:23 <ais523> quintopia: and I use Emacs, C-u 36866 C-f
19:48:09 <ais523> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot.hg/index.cgi/raw-file/93dc3dc7dad9/quintopia_space_elevator.bfjoust
19:48:14 <ais523> no need for a pastebin ;)
19:48:26 <ais523> (EgoBot has past versions online too)
19:48:51 <ais523> ah, OK, let me see if that's the one I have locally
19:49:00 <zzo38> Sorry my computer was off
19:49:27 <ais523> http://sprunge.us/idYC
19:55:29 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/hgZU
19:55:32 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 44.7
19:56:03 <quintopia> a lot of other things i want to change, but its good to see that
20:01:19 <nortti> Taneb: "surviving" in a linux text mode is not hard at all. tell me when you haven't started X for 5 days
20:02:50 <nortti> it isn't that hard really. biggest change would be using links2 as your main web browser (that or compiling netsurf with it's dependecy hell)
20:03:04 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
20:03:18 <Taneb> For me, the biggest challenge would be figuring out how to use emacs/vi/nano/whatever
20:04:11 <nortti> if you can't figure out nano you don't deserve to say you can survive in textmode
20:05:02 <Taneb> It's surprisingly easy
20:05:25 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:05:46 <nortti> it is as easy as using notepad but remeber to use nano -w (or whatever disables word wrap)
20:06:36 <nortti> but for future terminal use at least learn basics of vi, emacs or ed
20:07:13 <fizzie> WebKitDFB or Dillo on GTK on DirectFB. Though I guess that doesn't really count as "text mode" any more.
20:07:46 <fizzie> I'm a bit dubious on how well the banking websites would work on links2 or elinks or w3m or whatever.
20:07:56 <nortti> well directfb means you cannot use other terminals when that program is running
20:08:22 <fizzie> It'd be just for special occasions.
20:09:08 <nortti> fizzie: also netsurf has better rendering than dillo if I remember correctly. and website rendering in links2 is not really that bad
20:09:56 <nortti> it is just a hell to get to build even under X and buiding for framebuffer is even harder
20:12:07 <ais523> <nortti> if you can't figure out nano you don't deserve to say you can survive in textmode <-- nano is unfit for heavy editing, it doesn't obviously do automatic indentation
20:12:18 <ais523> not even just "copy the indentation of the previous line" like gedit
20:13:13 <nortti> ais523: I know. I should have said "if you can't *even* figure out nano you don't deserve to say you can survive in textmode"
20:13:16 <zzo38> When on Linux computer I use vi
20:13:49 <nortti> I never use nano myself. I use either ed or sometimes vi
20:15:57 <nortti> but if I would be forced to choose between emacs and nano I would choose nano
20:29:43 <Taneb> I think I have just figured out what callCC is on about
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20:30:00 <Taneb> It uses what its output is going to be used for to find its output
20:38:31 <elliott> Taneb: you should read my explanation!
20:38:59 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9050725/call-cc-implementation or just read http://blog.sigfpe.com/2008/12/mother-of-all-monads.html
20:40:20 <nortti> elliott: I reimplemented `WeLcOmE and properly this time
20:40:53 <nortti> `cat /hackev/bin/WeLcOmE
20:40:56 <HackEgo> cat: /hackev/bin/WeLcOmE: No such file or directory
20:41:04 <nortti> `cat /hackenv/bin/WeLcOmE
20:41:07 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ welcome $@ | python -c "print (lambda s: ''.join([ (s[i].upper() if i%2==0 else s[i].lower()) for i in range(len(s)) ]))(raw_input())"
20:41:39 <ion> `ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ foo
20:41:41 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ: not found
20:42:06 <elliott> Man, I can't believe I wrote all that spiel on continuations.
20:42:51 <ion> `run printf "#!/bin/sh\nWELCOME | perl -CS -Mutf8 -pwe 'y/!-~/！-～/; y/ / /'\n" >/hackenv/bin/ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ; chmod 755 /hackenv/bin/ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ
20:42:58 <nortti> ion: what did you try to execute? I only see blocks
20:43:04 <ion> `cat /hackenv/bin/ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ
20:43:07 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ WELCOME | perl -CS -Mutf8 -pwe 'y/!-~/！-～/; y/ / /'
20:43:16 <ion> `WELCOME foo
20:43:20 <HackEgo> FOO: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.)
20:43:20 <HackEgo> WhAt?: wElCoMe tO ThE InTeRnAtIoNaL HuB FoR EsOtErIc pRoGrAmMiNg lAnGuAgE DeSiGn aNd dEpLoYmEnT! fOr mOrE InFoRmAtIoN, cHeCk oUt oUr wIkI: hTtP://EsOlAnGs.oRg/wIkI/MaIn_pAgE. (FoR ThE OtHeR KiNd oF EsOtErIcA, tRy #EsOtErIc oN IrC.DaL.NeT.)
20:43:24 <ion> `ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ foo
20:43:27 <HackEgo> ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ ＴＯ ＴＨＥ ＩＮＴＥＲＮＡＴＩＯＮＡＬ ＨＵＢ ＦＯＲ ＥＳＯＴＥＲＩＣ ＰＲＯＧＲＡＭＭＩＮＧ ＬＡＮＧＵＡＧＥ ＤＥＳＩＧＮ ＡＮＤ ＤＥＰＬＯＹＭＥＮＴ！ ＦＯＲ ＭＯＲＥ ＩＮＦＯＲＭＡＴＩＯＮ， ＣＨＥＣＫ ＯＵＴ ＯＵＲ ＷＩＫＩ： ＨＴＴＰ：／／ＥＳＯＬＡＮＧＳ．ＯＲＧ／ＷＩＫ
20:44:07 <ais523> the last letter is shaved off
20:44:15 <ais523> what about just removing all the spaces? I can hardly see them anyway
20:45:09 <fizzie> Man, that Python WeLcOmE is so overcomplicated.
20:45:11 <fizzie> `run welcome foo | python -c "print ''.join(c.upper() if i%2==0 else c.lower() for i, c in enumerate(raw_input()))"
20:45:15 <HackEgo> FoO: wElCoMe tO ThE InTeRnAtIoNaL HuB FoR EsOtErIc pRoGrAmMiNg lAnGuAgE DeSiGn aNd dEpLoYmEnT! fOr mOrE InFoRmAtIoN, cHeCk oUt oUr wIkI: hTtP://EsOlAnGs.oRg/wIkI/MaIn_pAgE. (FoR ThE OtHeR KiNd oF EsOtErIcA, tRy #EsOtErIc oN IrC.DaL.NeT.)
20:45:17 <ais523> nortti: the I of "wiki"
20:45:27 <elliott> It's also wrong, since it alternates on non-alphabetical characters.
20:45:39 <elliott> ion: That omits the "foo: ".
20:45:46 <ion> elliott: Oh, good point.
20:45:54 <ion> `run printf "#!/bin/sh\nWELCOME \"$@\" | perl -CS -Mutf8 -pwe 'y/!-~/！-～/; y/ / /'\n" >/hackenv/bin/ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ; chmod 755 /hackenv/bin/ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ
20:46:12 <HackEgo> ： ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ ＴＯ ＴＨＥ ＩＮＴＥＲＮＡＴＩＯＮＡＬ ＨＵＢ ＦＯＲ ＥＳＯＴＥＲＩＣ ＰＲＯＧＲＡＭＭＩＮＧ ＬＡＮＧＵＡＧＥ ＤＥＳＩＧＮ ＡＮＤ ＤＥＰＬＯＹＭＥＮＴ！ ＦＯＲ ＭＯＲＥ ＩＮＦＯＲＭＡＴＩＯＮ， ＣＨＥＣＫ ＯＵＴ ＯＵＲ ＷＩＫＩ： ＨＴＴＰ：／／ＥＳＯＬＡＮＧＳ．ＯＲＧ／Ｗ
20:46:19 <shachaf> wE得るCOMEE得る得るiOTTA得ぬDiO得ぬ！
20:46:28 <ion> `run printf "#!/bin/sh\nWELCOME \"\$@\" | perl -CS -Mutf8 -pwe 'y/!-~/！-～/; y/ / /'\n" >/hackenv/bin/ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ; chmod 755 /hackenv/bin/ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ
20:46:41 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:46:45 <ion> `ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ foo
20:46:49 <HackEgo> ＦＯＯ： ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ ＴＯ ＴＨＥ ＩＮＴＥＲＮＡＴＩＯＮＡＬ ＨＵＢ ＦＯＲ ＥＳＯＴＥＲＩＣ ＰＲＯＧＲＡＭＭＩＮＧ ＬＡＮＧＵＡＧＥ ＤＥＳＩＧＮ ＡＮＤ ＤＥＰＬＯＹＭＥＮＴ！ ＦＯＲ ＭＯＲＥ ＩＮＦＯＲＭＡＴＩＯＮ， ＣＨＥＣＫ ＯＵＴ ＯＵＲ ＷＩＫＩ： ＨＴＴＰ：／／ＥＳＯＬＡＮＧＳ．ＯＲ
20:48:39 <ion> nortti: http://i.imgur.com/NMQKb.png
20:49:58 <fizzie> Check out our wiki, ESOLANGS.OR.DIE.
21:04:02 <Taneb> Also, callCC is pretty confusing... but useful?
21:05:02 <quintopia> !bfjoust zoom (>)*9(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6])*4(>[>(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6])*17])*17
21:05:05 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_zoom: 20.7
21:07:43 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, you're the expert on brainfuck variants
21:07:47 <Taneb> Is there one with callCC?
21:08:40 <Phantom_Hoover> I doubt it, seeing as Brainfuck doesn't have local variables.
21:09:04 <Taneb> Well, I'm gonna go now, I've got an early morning to wake up to
21:09:07 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:14:11 <quintopia> !bfjoust zoom (>)*9(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6])*20])*4(>[>(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6])*17])*17
21:14:14 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_zoom: 25.7
21:16:27 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele [---]
21:16:29 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 14.3
21:16:37 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele [+++]
21:16:40 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 14.3
21:16:53 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele [--->+++<]
21:16:56 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 13.2
21:17:02 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele [--->+<]
21:17:06 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 13.3
21:17:25 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele >(+)*100<[---]
21:17:27 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 12.6
21:17:37 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_spin: 0.0
21:17:45 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele >(+)*10<[---]
21:17:48 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 11.8
21:17:51 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele >(+)*10<[---]
21:17:54 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 11.8
21:17:55 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele >(+)*255<[---]
21:17:58 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 13.9
21:18:27 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (>(+)*255)*5(<)*5[---]
21:18:29 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 6.5
21:22:49 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele [->+<]
21:22:52 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 12.9
21:23:07 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele [->+>+<<]
21:23:10 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 11.6
21:23:26 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 15.9
21:23:45 <nortti> that one is trying to commit suicide >.<
21:25:33 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_spin: 1.6
21:25:48 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_spin: 13.0
21:26:05 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_spin: 8.3
21:26:33 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_shudder: 17.7
21:27:26 <EgoBot> Score for david_werecat_null: 9.2
21:28:26 <nortti> how does that one win?
21:28:55 <nortti> also how do you repeat piece of code -1 times?
21:29:59 <oerjan> that's by tradition equivalent to the maximum, i think
21:30:25 <david_werecat> Well I know that null at least wins agains quintopia_zoom by having it run off the tape...
21:30:26 <oerjan> (the tradition _may_ have started out as a bug :P)
21:31:21 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (->+<)*-1
21:31:24 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 13.0
21:31:29 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (-)*-1
21:31:32 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 16.8
21:31:38 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (+)*-1
21:31:43 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 16.8
21:31:56 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (+>[-])*-1
21:31:59 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 12.2
21:32:04 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (+>[-]<)*-1
21:32:06 <oerjan> !bfjoust tykje (++)*-1
21:32:07 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 15.1
21:32:10 <EgoBot> Score for oerjan_tykje: 16.8
21:32:14 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (+++)*-1
21:32:18 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 16.8
21:32:46 <quintopia> !bfjoust zoom (>)*9(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6])*20])*4(>[>(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6])*17])*5(>[>(>[>(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6])*12])*12])*12
21:32:49 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_zoom: 14.4
21:32:52 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (-+)*-1
21:32:56 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 11.6
21:33:04 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (.+)*-1
21:33:08 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 18.4
21:33:12 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (.++)*-1
21:33:15 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 13.4
21:33:23 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (.+++)*-1
21:33:26 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 13.1
21:33:31 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (.++++)*-1
21:33:34 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 11.2
21:33:38 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (.)*-1
21:33:41 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 8.2
21:33:43 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (.+)*-1
21:33:47 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 17.3
21:34:01 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (.+.)*-1
21:34:05 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 15.0
21:34:11 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (.++.)*-1
21:34:15 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 15.2
21:34:18 <quintopia> !bfjoust zoom (>)*9(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6])*20])*4(>[>(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6])*17])*5(>[>(>[>(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6])*12])*12])*12
21:34:19 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (.++.+.)*-1
21:34:21 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_zoom: 14.2
21:34:23 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 15.0
21:34:25 <oerjan> won't (.+)-1 lose if the opponent does nothing?
21:34:50 <quintopia> !bfjoust zoom (>)*9(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6])*20])*4(>[>(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6])*17])*17
21:34:53 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_zoom: 25.3
21:34:53 <nortti> !bfjoust perkele (.+>.+<)*-1
21:34:56 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_perkele: 12.6
21:36:19 <quintopia> david_werecat: it's interesting how zoom beats dreadnought and slowpoke and skyscraper despite not leaving any decoys and skipping some when it finds them
21:38:11 <david_werecat> So zoom assumes the enemy has decoys and tries to get to the flag immediately?
21:39:53 <quintopia> !bfjoust zoom (>)*8(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6])*20])*4(>[>(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6])*17])*17
21:39:56 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_zoom: 28.0
21:40:15 <quintopia> but it only assumes the enemy has decoys on long tapes
21:40:36 <quintopia> and it uses a new clear i just invented
21:41:03 <quintopia> so even against fast rushes (like space_elevator on short tape) it brings down the flag first
21:43:23 <david_werecat> The new clear looks like a fast clear merged with an offset clear repeated twice with different polarities.
21:46:25 <quintopia> it does a small fast clear, then a big offset clear...but assumes the decoy/flag won't be certain heights
21:46:47 <quintopia> it clears for a while, speed subtracts for a while, then clears some more, etc.
21:47:12 <quintopia> all the closing brackets are very susceptible to triplocks unfortunately, but i don't know how to deal with that
21:50:23 <david_werecat> If there's one place in the routine that would be a good point to break out of the clear loop, you can use null brackets {} to create copies of the clear routine inside the routine.
21:52:18 <david_werecat> Although zoom seems sufficently complex to make that very difficult to do.
21:56:27 <quintopia> !bfjoust zoom (>)*8(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6])*20])*4(>[(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6])*16])*17])*5(>[(>[(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6])*12])*12])*12
21:56:30 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_zoom: 22.2
21:56:52 <quintopia> !bfjoust zoom (>)*8(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6])*20])*4(>[>(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6])*17])*17
21:56:55 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_zoom: 28.0
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22:05:50 <ais523> quintopia: how does that program work?
22:06:16 <quintopia> ais523: read the conversation above. that pretty much covers it.
22:06:23 <ais523> oh, I see, it's a similar idea to counterpoke (the longer it takes to engage with the enemy, the more decoys it probably has)
22:07:15 <quintopia> the only other innovation is the assumption that decoys are certain sizes: very small or medium height or huge
22:07:32 <ais523> I think this is a legitimate addition to BF Joust technology that will start showing up in more programs (the counterpoke/zoom thing)
22:08:11 <ais523> wow counterpoke has fallen a lot
22:09:27 <ais523> because people are getting good at confusing it?
22:09:38 <quintopia> space_elevator already does a better decoy build (and always has). space_elevator's weakness is its clear (still)
22:10:17 <quintopia> expect skyscraper to rise i think. that strategy is hard to counter.
22:13:32 <ais523> it's very easy to counter, just clear with alternating polarities :)
22:13:40 <ais523> surprised nobody had thought of that
22:14:08 <quintopia> oh, yeah, i think i did that at one point a long time ago
22:14:28 <quintopia> space_elevator used to clear with alternating cycle lengths
22:14:44 <quintopia> the double clear is still in there
22:15:06 <quintopia> the problem with alternating polarity clear is that people frequently use alternating decoys
22:15:34 <ais523> I don't use alternating decoys any more, they're too vulnerable to people detecting the pattern (even though nobody's done that yet; maybe I should)
22:15:37 <quintopia> so half the time you get the *worst* possible set of clears
22:16:04 <ais523> I'm rather partial to the "a block in one direction, a block in the other direction" pattern, which works neatly no matter what the opponent's clear pattern
22:16:14 <quintopia> in space_elevator i made sure i had an equal number of decoys in each direction, but not with a pattern
22:19:56 <quintopia> !bfjoust zoom (>)*8(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6])*20])*4(>[(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6])*17])*17
22:19:59 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_zoom: 23.3
22:20:30 <quintopia> !bfjoust zoom (>)*8(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6])*20])*4(>[>(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6])*17])*17
22:20:33 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_zoom: 28.0
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22:20:48 <quintopia> apparently you should assume 2 decoys on long tapes
22:25:09 <quintopia> !bfjoust careless_zoom (>)*8(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6])*20])*4(>[>(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*12([-{(-)*30([-{(-)*20[-][+][-]}])%30}])%30}])%6])*17])*17
22:25:12 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_careless_zoom: 26.9
22:26:01 <quintopia> !bfjoust careless_zoom (>)*8(>[(-)*15([+{(-)*90(.-)*60}])%30(>[(-)*15(-)*90(.-)*60}])%30])*20])*4(>[>(>[(-)*15([+{(-)*90(.-)*60}])%30])*17])*17
22:26:04 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_careless_zoom: 0.0
22:41:41 <quintopia> !bfjoust impomatic_lessdumb (>(-)*8>(+)*8)*4(>[+++++[-]])*21
22:41:44 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_impomatic_lessdumb: 24.5
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22:45:00 <david_werecat> Wait, how is careless_zoom showing ties for everything?
22:45:44 <ais523> david_werecat: syntax error, probably
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22:59:25 <oerjan> unmatched } after second *60
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23:55:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Man, the Google results for "set fire to the third bar" are really disappointing.
23:56:12 <Phantom_Hoover> They're all just corrected to "set the fire to the third bar" and none of them are about serial arsonists.
23:59:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Sometimes when I fantasise about meeting a girl who shares my passion for burning things I really wish I had a song to go with it, you know?
00:00:29 <oerjan> "burning down the house"?
00:02:48 <itidus20> or Tay Zonday's I'm a hot hot surface baby. I'll get you melting on the carpet like a crispy chicken burger.
00:04:18 <Phantom_Hoover> ...itidus i don't know how chicken works in australia but here it doesn't melt
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00:11:13 -!- oerjan has set topic: waxing | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
00:18:36 <zzo38> What is this about waxing?
00:19:27 <oerjan> well it said waning before
00:19:48 <oerjan> which seemed so negative
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00:45:55 <itidus20> I'm a hot hot surface baby - Don't be nervous - I can melt you 'till you're dripping - all over the carpet
00:46:22 <itidus20> I'm a hot hot surface baby - At your service - I can hold you 'til you sizzle - like a juicy chicken burger
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01:50:30 <oerjan> we cannot tolerate such a thing here.
01:50:41 <BlueProtoman> Do algorithms with O(sin(x)) complexity exist?
01:52:41 <oerjan> that would mean it should use < 1 instructions on some input lengths.
01:53:54 <oerjan> you could probably contrive something not very useful
01:54:29 <oerjan> yes, that gets arbitrary close to 0.
01:54:29 <pikhq_> That means it'll sometimes take negative time.
01:55:09 <pikhq_> That... Doesn't change that at all, in fact.
01:55:13 <pikhq_> As it's assumed n > 0.
01:55:28 <oerjan> that still gets arbitrary close to 0.
01:55:56 <oerjan> if you interpret it as + a constant, then it's the same as O(1).
02:00:08 <pikhq_> http://sprunge.us/RThh Remind me again why gzip is more than ~100 lines?
02:03:03 <shachaf> Remind me again why true is more than ~3 lines?
02:03:37 <pikhq_> Because GNU hates all that is good.
02:04:14 <pikhq_> And thinks "int main(){return 0;}" suggests they have a small e-penis.
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02:21:37 <zzo38> Free Software Foundation tends to make large programs
02:22:34 <pikhq_> Sure, I'm cheating somewhat by using zlib. But, then, gzip
02:22:44 <zzo38> I would probably make some of the programs in assembly language/machine codes, still GPL licensed, and have those programs in C as well if you are loading them onto a computer where the program has not yet been written in assembly language for that computer. Some such program might include true/false
02:22:49 <pikhq_> 's gzip.c (main and a few util functions) is 600 lines.
02:23:00 <pikhq_> That's *just* main and a few util functions used in main.
02:23:22 <zzo38> Does that include comments and blank lines?
02:23:34 <pikhq_> Yeah, I'm just using wc -l
02:24:03 <pikhq_> wc -l says 1,876 why did I say 600
02:24:30 <pikhq_> GNU gzip's main is an OOM larger than that.
02:32:14 <oerjan> !c printf("%d", (unsigned short)1 > -1);
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02:50:14 <pikhq> For added perverseness: I'm not even using gzip well, and this is faster than gzip at decompression.
02:50:21 <pikhq> Erm, using zlib well.
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04:00:12 <david_werecat> !c FILE* base = fopen("/tmp/newfile","w"); if(base == NULL) { printf("Failed to open file."); return 0; }; fputs("Hello remote filesystem!",base); fflush(base); fclose(base); return 0;
04:01:19 <fungot> itidus20: i've seen others mentioned here, it can be
04:01:37 <fungot> itidus20: 1 for 1 cds) and buy strange old prog rock band
04:03:05 <david_werecat> !c FILE* base; char data[4095]; base = popen("/bin/ls /tmp/","r"); if(base == NULL) { printf("Failed to run command\n"); return 0; }; while(fgets(data, sizeof(data)-1, base) != NULL) { printf("%s", data); }; pclose(base); return 0;
04:06:29 <itidus20> !bfjoust narf -><>[+<[]+<]>+<[<+]><+>[<[>]<]><+[>]+<[>>]>-<>[<->++<>]><-[>+]+
04:06:32 <EgoBot> Score for itidus20_narf: 5.3
04:09:15 <itidus20> !bfjoust narf -><>+[+<[]+<]>+<+[<+]><+>+[<[>]<]><+[>]+<+[>>]>-<>+[<->++<>]><-[>+]+
04:09:17 <EgoBot> Score for itidus20_narf: 6.6
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04:40:11 <itidus20> so i saw someone link the dwarf fortress book in another channel.. the cellophane house era has begun
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21:44:40 <Taneb> Does it have spears?
21:44:40 <Phantom_Hoover> i.e. I used menacing wooden spikes instead of training spears.
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23:00:14 <oerjan> it's all the birds' fault http://phys.org/news/2012-06-giant-insects-evolution-birds.html
23:00:24 <Sgeo> I want to see a blind LP of NetHack
23:04:32 <elliott> Sgeo: unspoiled people do not generally win NetHack in less than a few years :P
23:04:42 <elliott> so it would have to be an awfully long-running LP.
23:04:58 <shachaf> elliott: Did you ever win NetHack. :-(
23:05:03 <Sgeo> Has an unspoiled person ever won?
23:05:17 <elliott> (At least, I'm 99% sure they have.)
23:05:41 <shachaf> "crawl > nethack" -- interhack developer
23:06:48 <elliott> Crawl has a boring early-game (OK, an incredibly boring early-game) and a fun mid-to-late-game.
23:07:01 <elliott> ais523 tells me NetHack is more like the opposite of that, so I probably won't play it much more.
23:07:08 <elliott> Except to ascend. I've got to ascend NetHack once before I die. It's a token thing.
23:07:21 <shachaf> elliott: I've never gotten to the Crawl mid-to-late game, so I wouldn't know.
23:07:24 <elliott> (I probably won't play it much more because its early game bores me, that is.)
23:07:27 <elliott> shachaf: How far have you gotten?
23:07:27 <shachaf> I ascended NetHack atheist wishless, though!
23:07:36 <shachaf> elliott: No idea. Not far.
23:07:46 <shachaf> I mostly played it when I was uninterested in thinking or being careful.
23:07:49 <elliott> shachaf: Have you seen the Lair?
23:07:58 <elliott> shachaf: Have you gotten to the last level of Lair?
23:07:59 <shachaf> I got killed by a death yak once.
23:08:13 <shachaf> It was, like, a while ago, man.
23:08:13 <elliott> 00:08 <Sequell> No games for elliott (killer=death yak).
23:08:18 <elliott> shachaf: What about the Orcish Mines?
23:08:31 <shachaf> (Though maybe I shouldn't have gone in so early.)
23:08:41 <elliott> (You should do Lair first.)
23:08:48 <elliott> What about Shoals, Swamp, Snake Pit, Elven Halls? (Slime Pits?)
23:09:26 <elliott> You've gone to Elf but haven't gotten a rune?
23:09:40 <elliott> Anyway, I define Crawl mid-to-late game as "first rune onwards", more or less.
23:09:50 <elliott> Then after the late game is extended. (I've never done extended. :( )
23:09:54 <shachaf> Well, you should ascend NetHack.
23:10:16 <shachaf> Val/Sam has an easy early game, so you could play that.
23:10:16 <elliott> shachaf: The furthest I've gotten in NetHack is doing Sokoban in the Mines as a Valkyrie dwarf.
23:10:23 <shachaf> ("Val/Sam" is like "C/C++".)
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23:10:37 <elliott> It was very boring, except for the part where I angered the Keystone Kops.
23:11:00 <elliott> #nethack got me out of that situation by having me steal something and then repay the shopkeeper, which calmed the Kops down.
23:11:03 <shachaf> elliott: If you kill the shopkeeper, the Kops never come.
23:11:05 <elliott> Did you know NetHack doesn't make much sense?
23:11:36 <elliott> I don't really like NetHack.
23:11:50 <shachaf> elliott: You should play it to the end!
23:12:02 <shachaf> In the late game in NetHack you become invincible.
23:12:05 <elliott> shachaf: Even ais523 said NetHack probably isn't the game for me.
23:12:08 <shachaf> And you can kill anything by hitting it.
23:12:12 <elliott> And yes, that's boring as hell.
23:12:32 <elliott> I would play NetHack if they made an analogue of Crawl's sprint mode where it's just the Astral Plane.
23:12:36 <elliott> (Or maybe all of the planes.)
23:12:47 <shachaf> Well, maybe not the Astral Plane.
23:12:52 <shachaf> The Plane of Water is really boring.
23:12:53 <elliott> The Astral Plane isn't! Or at least it doesn't look boring.
23:12:56 <elliott> I've never played it, naturally.
23:13:03 <shachaf> You gotta ascend NetHack at least once before you die, man!
23:13:07 <elliott> ais523 thinks the Astral Plane is the best level, I think.
23:13:18 <shachaf> The Astral Plane is pretty good.
23:13:24 <shachaf> You would probably use the Astral Call Bug.
23:13:48 <elliott> It's fixed on the public servers, so I hear, anyway.
23:13:53 <elliott> And offline play isn't cool.
23:14:02 <elliott> shachaf: I bet you play with terminals bigger than 80x24.
23:14:03 <shachaf> Guess what OTHER patch is applied to public servers?
23:14:16 <elliott> Sorry - I mean - not yours.
23:14:31 <shachaf> Hey, I wrote the actual code in it!
23:14:51 <shachaf> You can ask the other person whose name is on the patch?
23:14:59 <shachaf> Not that you'd believe him.
23:15:09 <shachaf> elliott: I bet you're cheater_.
23:15:17 <elliott> shachaf: Would *you* trust the guy who made YAML?
23:15:46 <elliott> I notice you haven't responded to the hugeterm allegation.
23:15:57 <shachaf> I play on 80x24, thank you very much.
23:16:04 <shachaf> I don't even get the point of hugeterm.
23:16:05 <Sgeo> Hey, I wrote a patch for NetHack
23:16:09 <shachaf> Do you get to see more of the map in Crawl?
23:16:26 <elliott> shachaf: Yes, or a bigger message area.
23:16:32 <shachaf> In NetHack you see the entire map on the screen anyway.
23:16:33 -!- monqy has joined.
23:16:36 <shachaf> And there's no message area.
23:16:37 <elliott> shachaf: But you can also just make the message area smaller to see all of the map.
23:16:41 <shachaf> We should let monqy settle this.
23:16:49 <lambdabot> monqy: You have 6 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
23:18:55 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
23:20:39 <shachaf> elliott: Do you claim there isn't a dispute?
23:20:44 <shachaf> That sounds like a dispute for monqy to settle.
23:20:44 <elliott> monqy: Who wrote this patch? http://ben-kiki.org/oren/statuscolors/index.html
23:20:50 <shachaf> elliott: Oh, I meant hugeterm.
23:21:21 <elliott> We both agreed it's stupid.
23:21:34 <shachaf> monqy: Is hugeterm stupid?
23:21:48 <shachaf> monqy: Also, should elliott ascend at NetHack at least once before he dies.
23:22:51 <monqy> hugeterm is stupid
23:23:00 <monqy> I don't care whether elliott ascends nh or not
23:23:38 <elliott> (In Crawl, the "ascending" is walking up a bunch of stairs!)
23:23:47 <elliott> shachaf: Did you know the way to win Crawl is to run away form things?
23:24:08 <shachaf> elliott: In NetHack, "ascending" is walking up a bunch of stairs!
23:24:13 <shachaf> Except for the mysterious force.
23:24:19 <shachaf> Do you even know what that is? :-(
23:24:29 <elliott> I know of it! I forget what it is.
23:24:38 <elliott> (You ascend to demigodhood.)
23:24:54 <shachaf> (You ascend up the figurative demigodhood stairs.)
23:25:15 <elliott> shachaf: Did you know that Debian applies a patch to NetHack that changes the gameplay?
23:25:29 <elliott> The 95_enh_engulf_prayers.dpatch patch makes being engulfed a major trouble, so that a successful prayer while engulfed will get you expelled and cause the engulfing monster to flee.
23:25:44 <shachaf> elliott: Do you know what the WORST PART OF NETHACK is?
23:25:49 <quintopia> !bfjoust 3pac >+>->+>->+>->+>---<++<--<++<--<++<(-)*8>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*15([-{[.-](>[(+)*3([-{(-)*15[+]}])%6])*21}])%30}])%6](+)*2)*21
23:25:49 <lambdabot> quintopia: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
23:25:55 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_3pac: 30.5
23:25:56 <shachaf> Hint: It's the "wraps itself around you" thing.
23:26:03 <elliott> To quote squarelos, "nethack is weird".
23:26:29 <shachaf> "The giant eel swings itself around you!" <-- worst part of NetHack
23:26:55 <shachaf> Unless you do one of a few weird things.
23:27:07 <shachaf> Like levitate (if you're not levitating) or unlevitate (if you're levitating).
23:27:07 <elliott> I do not like instadeath effects.
23:27:15 <shachaf> But taking off boots of levitation takes more than one turn!
23:27:32 <shachaf> You can also teleport the eel away. Or yourself, unless you're on a no-teleport level!
23:27:36 <elliott> (You should just lose HP and MHP a bunch until it's 0 or something.)
23:28:11 <shachaf> Slowly the things you like become more and more mainstream?
23:29:19 <elliott> Did you know there was a time when people on reddit didn't complain about hipsters?
23:29:37 <elliott> (It wasn't the good old days, though. It was bad in another ways instead)
23:29:47 <shachaf> It wasn't that bad five years ago!
23:30:00 <elliott> It wasn't *that* bad. But it was still pretty bad.
23:31:13 <monqy> did you know: iv'e never reddit
23:31:21 <monqy> monqy facts, brought to you by monqy
23:31:32 <elliott> monqy: Continue this state.
23:31:48 <elliott> Wow, what a pretentous wording.
23:31:55 <elliott> monqy: Can you punch me for saying that?
23:32:02 <monqy> consider yourself puncht
23:32:17 <shachaf> elliott: do you hate people who say words like
23:32:42 <elliott> "puncht" is not "punch'd".
23:32:59 <shachaf> I'm not talking about "puncht".
23:33:13 <shachaf> I'm TALKING ABOUT THE APOSTROPHE.
23:34:44 <quintopia> !bfjoust 3pac >+>->+>->+>->+>---<++<--<++<--<++<(-)*8>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8(>[(-)*3([+{(+)*15([-{[.-](>[(+)*3([-{(-)*15[.+](>[(-)*3([+{(+)*15[-]}])%6])*21}])%6])*21}])%30}])%6](+)*2)*21
23:34:47 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_3pac: 30.1
23:37:00 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
23:44:22 <shachaf> elliott: You know jkff from #haskell?
23:44:53 <elliott> Are they new or something?
23:45:11 <shachaf> jkff is Eugene Kirpichov (as I just discovered).
23:49:28 -!- Patashu has joined.
23:52:10 <elliott> Oh, the htrace person. OK. So?
23:57:20 <quintopia> !bfjoust 3pac >+>->+>->+>->+>---<++<--<++<--<++<(-)*8>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8(>[((-)*3([+{(+)*15([-{[-]}])%30}])%6>)*3((+)*3([-{(-)*15[+]}])%6>)*18](+)*2)*21
23:57:23 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_3pac: 35.5
23:58:02 -!- Patashu has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:58:24 -!- Patashu has joined.
23:59:06 <quintopia> !bfjoust 3pac >+>->+>->+>->+>---<++<--<++<--<++<(-)*20>(+)*20>(-)*8>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8(>[((-)*3([+{(+)*15([-{[-]}])%30}])%6>)*3((+)*3([-{(-)*15[+]}])%6>)*18](+)*2)*21
23:59:09 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_3pac: 37.2
00:00:35 <elliott> Is that the sequel to 2Pac?
00:09:03 <quintopia> !bfjoust 3pac >+>->+>->+>->+>---<++<--<++<--<++<--<(+)*20>(-)*20>(+)*15>(-)*15>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8(>[((-)*3([+{(+)*15([-{[-]}])%30}])%6>)*3((+)*3([-{(-)*25[+]}])%6>)*18](+)*2)*21
00:09:06 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_3pac: 43.4
00:09:37 <quintopia> it is now officially my highest scoring program
00:09:47 <quintopia> (thanks myndzi for the 3pass idea)
00:11:01 <elliott> shachaf: What I meant by "so" is, why should I know who Eugene Kirpichov is?
00:11:25 <quintopia> plus it switches the polarity of its clear 3 cells after the first one
00:11:36 <quintopia> plus a huge offset for later decoys
00:11:53 <shachaf> elliott: I asked about jkff, not Eugene Kirpichov.
00:12:10 <quintopia> (note to self: ask ais if this is the first program that increases its offset size the more decoys it encounters)
00:13:27 <quintopia> @ask ais523 has anyone before written a program that uses larger offsets on longer tapes?
00:13:53 <elliott> ...It might help to give more context than that.
00:14:53 <shachaf> @tell ais523 has anyone before quintopia written a program that uses larger offsets on longer tapes?
00:17:25 <quintopia> !bfjoust 3pac >+>->+>->+>->+>---<++<--<++<--<++<--<(+)*20>(-)*20>(+)*15>(-)*15>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8(>[((-)*3([+{(+)*15([-{[-]}])%30}])%6>)*3((+)*3([-{(-)*40[+]}])%6>)*18](+)*2)*21
00:17:27 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_3pac: 45.1
00:17:39 <quintopia> note to self: huger offsets = better :P
00:18:28 <quintopia> it now beats all of Deewiant's programs
00:18:56 <shachaf> !bfjoust hi (->->->->->++[+>->]-)*100000
00:18:59 <EgoBot> Score for shachaf_hi: 0.0
00:19:23 <shachaf> Has anyone gotten a score of 0.0 before?
00:21:38 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_shachafislame: 0.0
00:21:51 <quintopia> !bfjoust 3pac >+>->+>->+>->+>---<++<--<++<--<++<--<(+)*20>(-)*20>(+)*15>(-)*15>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8(>[((-)*3([+{(+)*15([-{[-]}])%30}])%6>)*3((-)*3([+{(+)*25[-]}])%6>)*3((+)*3([-{(-)*40[+]}])%6>)*15](+)*2)*21
00:21:53 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_3pac: 41.4
00:22:14 <quintopia> !bfjoust 3pac >+>->+>->+>->+>---<++<--<++<--<++<--<(+)*20>(-)*20>(+)*15>(-)*15>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8(>[((-)*3([+{(+)*15([-{[-]}])%30}])%6>)*3((+)*3([-{(-)*40[+]}])%6>)*18](+)*2)*21
00:22:17 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_3pac: 45.1
00:22:20 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
00:22:31 <EgoBot> Score for shachaf_oh___: 0.0
00:22:36 <shachaf> I don't even know the rules.
00:22:54 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust
00:22:56 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust_strategies
00:23:04 <quintopia> its not like there isnt a BUTTLOAD OF DOCUMENTATION :P
00:23:51 <shachaf> I don't even know how to read. :-(
00:24:02 <shachaf> If you think what I'm saying is a reponse to something you're saying, you're wrong.
00:25:43 <elliott> @tell david_werecat Sorry, EgoBot actually uses gearlance.c, not chainlance.c (in the same repository; http://git.zem.fi/chainlance/blob/HEAD:/gearlance.c).
00:30:33 <quintopia> !bfjoust 3pac >+>->+>->+>->+>---<++<--<++<--<++<--<(+)*20>(-)*20>(+)*15>(-)*15>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8(>[((-)*3([+{(+)*25[-]}])%6>)*3((+)*3([-{(-)*40[+]}])%6>)*18](+)*2)*21
00:30:36 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_3pac: 48.5
00:31:28 <quintopia> lol i made it to beat skyscraper and it doesn't even do that anymore :P
00:34:08 <quintopia> !bfjoust 3pac >+>->+>->+>->+>---<++<--<++<--<++<--<(+)*20>(-)*20>(+)*15>(-)*15>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8>(-)*8>(+)*8(>[((-)*3([+{(+)*25[-][+]}])%6>)*3((+)*3([-{(-)*40[+][-]}])%6>)*18](+)*2)*21
00:34:11 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_3pac: 49.1
00:41:41 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:42:20 -!- Nisstyre has joined.
01:08:48 <elliott> shachaf: How do I ascend NetHack?
01:09:00 <monqy> nethack sounds boring to ascend
01:09:07 <shachaf> elliott: Sacrifice the Amulet of Yendor to Anhur.
01:09:15 <elliott> shachaf: Which one is Anhur?
01:09:34 <elliott> shachaf: Which is the one dwarf valkyries start with?
01:09:36 <monqy> but for which class
01:09:36 <shachaf> You want to be chaotic if you can manage it.
01:09:55 <elliott> shachaf: Yes it is? I think.
01:09:57 <shachaf> Val and Sam can't be chaotic. :-(
01:10:07 <elliott> monqy: You have to do it sometime in your life.
01:10:27 <monqy> it sounds so boring
01:10:35 <monqy> i just don't want to bother
01:10:46 <monqy> and so many stupid things i'd have to do
01:11:14 <elliott> monqy: But have you *seen* the Astral Plane?
01:11:36 <monqy> it looks like a lot of clearing messages
01:11:52 <shachaf> The Astral Plane: MAXIMUM FUN
01:11:54 <elliott> You could use an interface that has multiple lines of messages.
01:12:15 <monqy> is the astral plane actually fun
01:12:22 <elliott> shachaf: Is the Astral Plane actually fun?
01:12:31 <elliott> monqy: It *looks* fun, and ais523 says it's the best level of NetHack.
01:12:41 <shachaf> elliott: Well, I've died there.
01:12:51 <shachaf> Which means there's risk! Which makes it fun.
01:12:57 <monqy> i don't trust ais' roguelike opinions; he likes identification
01:13:08 <elliott> monqy: Well, he clarified that a bit.
01:13:19 <elliott> (He hates Crawl's identification system.)
01:13:27 <elliott> (NetHack's identification system is admittedly much less degenerate.)
01:13:28 <monqy> but he likes nethack's, no?
01:13:38 <elliott> (I still don't like it. But it's much better than Crawl's.)
01:13:46 <elliott> (FWIW, IIRC dtsund thinks the same.)
01:13:58 <shachaf> elliott: Did you know: If you #name-no a scroll labeled "VELOX NEB" "VELOX NEB", you have a 100% chance of writing it with a magic marker?
01:14:05 <shachaf> I mean, writing the thing it identifies to, if you try.
01:14:11 <shachaf> Even if you don't identify it.
01:14:32 <shachaf> Ask ais523 -- Interhack supports it, after all.
01:14:36 <elliott> shachaf: I didn't understand what you said.
01:14:43 <elliott> Also, ais523 never developed Interhack AFAIK.
01:14:49 <shachaf> elliott: You know about #name-no?
01:15:07 <elliott> Yes. It names objects and stuff.
01:15:27 <shachaf> Right. If you say "no", it names a type of object, instead of a specific one.
01:15:36 <shachaf> So you can name "VELOX NEB" "maybe scare monster??"
01:15:44 <shachaf> Like { or \ or whatever it is in Crawl.
01:15:55 <elliott> I... think you mean inscription.
01:15:56 <monqy> crawl doesn't have naming a type of object
01:16:09 <shachaf> Anyway, Crawl isn't the point here.
01:16:10 <monqy> { is inscription but
01:16:24 <monqy> inscription doesn't apply to a whole type of item
01:16:34 * shachaf , knower of more Crawl keybindings than elliott
01:16:55 <shachaf> So if you #name-no a scroll labeled "VELOX NEB" "VELOX NEB", you'd think it wouldn't do anything useful, right?
01:17:02 <elliott> shachaf: Anyway, how do I get past the point where I suicide before finding the entrance to the Mines or Sokoban because I'm bored as hell?
01:17:14 <elliott> (Go on before answering that.)
01:17:18 <shachaf> elliott: You could do the mines first.
01:17:25 <shachaf> elliott: So let's say VELOX NEB is a scroll of wishing.
01:17:43 <shachaf> Now, if you attempt to write "a scroll of wishing" with a magic marker, you'll always succeed!
01:17:56 <shachaf> Because it thinks you "know" wishing, because you #named-no a scroll of wishing earlier!
01:18:22 <elliott> Anyway, how the hell can I do Mines before finding the entrance to Mines?
01:18:32 <shachaf> The mines are always on level 2/3/4.
01:18:38 <shachaf> Which is earlier than Sokoban.
01:18:39 <quintopia> !bfjoust 3pac >+>->+>->+>->+>(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*15<(+)*15<(-)*20<(+)*40>(-)*20>(+)*15>(-)*15>>>>>(>[((-)*3([+{(+)*25[-][+]}])%6>)*3((+)*3([-{(-)*40[+][-]}])%6>)*18](+)*2)*21
01:18:42 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_3pac: 55.3
01:19:03 <shachaf> elliott: I find early Crawl more boring than early NetHack.
01:19:11 <monqy> early crawl is awful too
01:19:20 <shachaf> elliott: Anyway, you could play pacifist. That's not boring, right?
01:19:25 <elliott> 02:19 <shachaf> elliott: I find early Crawl more boring than early NetHack.
01:19:29 <elliott> But you know what early Crawl has?
01:19:42 <shachaf> But even with o I find it more boring.
01:19:44 <elliott> (I know NetHack 4 has autoexplore. NetHack 4 is not yet playable.)
01:19:47 <coppro> shachaf: that sounds like a bug that ought to be fixed.
01:19:50 <shachaf> Maybe because it lasts for so much longer.
01:19:51 <coppro> elliott: it is totally playable
01:19:53 <elliott> coppro: Of course it's a bug.
01:19:55 <monqy> shachaf: do you hit o and tab fast enough
01:19:57 <shachaf> coppro: Tell ais523 about it!
01:20:02 <elliott> coppro: It is not, I tried it a while ago; it's insufficiently polished.
01:20:06 <elliott> (I was talking to ais523 at the time.)
01:20:12 <monqy> don't play desu wow
01:20:13 <elliott> shachaf: And OK, but it's a boringness I can stand.
01:20:17 <elliott> And don't play Su if you don't want to be bored.
01:20:18 <coppro> elliott:where in logs?
01:20:26 <monqy> desu is just asking to be bored
01:20:36 <shachaf> That's why I don't play Crawl!
01:20:38 <elliott> (By "stand", I mean "phase out".)
01:21:05 <elliott> (The joke is that that's <bold>physically impossible</bold>.)
01:21:28 <elliott> Mountain Dwarf Fighter, the most popular combo. The joke is that Mountain Dwarves don't exist any more.
01:21:35 <elliott> Now everyone plays MiFi instead!
01:21:48 <elliott> coppro: Most of the complaints were trivial interface stuff ais523 said he'd fix.
01:22:00 <monqy> Sgeo: joke's it's Dg
01:22:15 <elliott> shachaf: Minotaur Fighter.
01:22:31 <elliott> coppro: But it also feels weird in a way NetHack doesn't that I can't quite put my finger on.
01:22:36 <monqy> Sgeo: i think there's still some DgBe in sequell too
01:22:36 <elliott> NetHack feels weird too, after so much Crawl.
01:22:48 <elliott> 02:22 <Sequell> 2. rob the Ducker (L2 DGBe), killed by the fiery rage of Trog on D:1 on 2008-10-05, with 96 points after 840 turns and 0:03:31.
01:22:50 <monqy> Sgeo: they were back from when Dg was DG
01:22:55 <elliott> I guess Trog doesn't like Demigods.
01:22:57 <coppro> elliott: that's normal for roguelikes
01:23:05 <elliott> 02:23 <Sequell> 1. test the Chopper (L1 DGBe), worshipper of Trog, mangled by an orc (a +0,+0 orcish club) on D:1 on 2008-05-27, with 63 points after 386 turns and 0:07:26.
01:23:11 <quintopia> !bfjoust 3pac >+>->+>->+>->+>(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*15<(+)*15<(-)*20<(+)*40>(-)*20>(+)*15>(-)*15>>>>>(>[((-)*3([+{(+)*40[-][+]}])%6>)*3((+)*3([-{(-)*40[+][-]}])%6>)*18](+)*2)*21
01:23:13 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_3pac: 56.7
01:23:18 <coppro> elliott: going from one to another does feel weird
01:23:23 <Sgeo> How does DGBe exist?
01:23:27 <elliott> coppro: Anyway, I'd rather play NetHack than NetHack 4, because I have to win NetHack sometime in my life, but I don't have to win NetHack 4 sometime in my life.
01:23:37 <coppro> When I go back to ADOM after NetHAck, I invariably am insufficiently afraid of doors
01:23:37 <elliott> 02:23 <Sequell> 2. [cv=0.5-a] rob the Ducker (L2 DGBe), killed by the fiery rage of Trog on D:1 on 2008-10-05, with 96 points after 840 turns and 0:03:31.
01:23:48 <shachaf> elliott: What if I watch you play NetHack?
01:23:59 <elliott> Sgeo: ??syllogism[2] exists for the same reason, presumably.
01:24:00 <monqy> I've also been thoroughly convinced I don't want to play adom
01:24:04 <elliott> shachaf: Sure. Will you offer HELPFUL ADVICE?
01:24:06 <Sgeo> What's the "reason"?
01:24:24 <shachaf> elliott: HELPFUL ADVICE: Scrolls of mail actually take a turn to read in NetHack!
01:24:42 <elliott> 02:24 <Sequell> One game for * (dg god!=): DGBe
01:25:07 <elliott> shachaf: Anyway, what's the best server in Europe?
01:25:11 <elliott> NAO lags a bit too much for me.
01:25:15 <shachaf> Real programmers play on NAO.
01:25:26 <elliott> coppro: I played ADOM for five minutes. I don't want to play ADOM any more.
01:25:27 <shachaf> Like that one patch that...
01:25:37 <shachaf> elliott: That just means you have to think more about your moves.
01:25:50 <monqy> what makes you think you have to ascend nethack, anyway
01:25:53 <elliott> monqy: Tell shachaf why lag matters even in turn-based games.
01:25:56 <shachaf> elliott: (NAO lagged for me too when I was on your continent.)
01:26:03 <shachaf> (By your continent I mean Asia.)
01:26:08 <monqy> shachaf: lag matters even in turn-based games.
01:26:13 <elliott> Asia is indeed my continent.
01:26:32 <elliott> shachaf: Anyway, OK, I'll try NAO.
01:26:38 <Sgeo> Why are Europe and Asia considered different continents?
01:26:40 <elliott> shachaf: What char should I play?
01:26:49 <shachaf> Sgeo: Europe isn't a continent. It's just a peninsula.
01:26:51 <elliott> Sgeo: Because "continent" doesn't mean anything.
01:26:57 <shachaf> elliott: That depends. You want it to be easy, right?
01:27:01 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasia#Overview
01:27:11 <elliott> shachaf: I want to have fun, preferably early on.
01:27:18 <elliott> But I'd also like something not impossible to ascend for a beginner.
01:27:25 <shachaf> elliott: Anyway, play either Val/Sam for a meleer or Wiz for a magic user.
01:27:32 <elliott> i.e. I want to play with the intention of winning, but not be bored out of my skull.
01:27:36 <coppro> elliott: 'twas my first roguelike
01:27:37 <elliott> shachaf: I played Val. It was boring.
01:27:41 <coppro> elliott: it's still bloody hard
01:27:51 <elliott> shachaf: That's not helpful. :(
01:27:58 <elliott> When do they get non-boring?
01:28:12 <elliott> shachaf: I might play a wizard.
01:28:17 <elliott> shachaf: But I've never cast a single spell in NetHack.
01:28:24 <Sgeo> Today I Learned that "antiquity" is an actual historical period and not just a vague reference to the past
01:28:36 <shachaf> elliott: In the late game wizards can get by pretty well with melee.
01:28:48 <shachaf> Well, they're not *that* bad.
01:28:58 <shachaf> They become significantly better if you sacrifice for Magicbane?
01:29:05 <elliott> shachaf: Can NAO be accessed via ssh?
01:29:22 <Sgeo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasia#Overview linked to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_antiquity
01:29:47 <elliott> shachaf: How do I access NAO?
01:30:39 <elliott> Aww, there is already an "elliott".
01:30:53 <elliott> No. Well, he doesn't have my password.
01:30:56 <shachaf> elliott: Wait, haven't I seen you play NetHack before?
01:30:56 <elliott> And he's on the high scores list.
01:31:01 <monqy> see I tried logging on as squarelos and there wasn't a squarelos but then I tried monqy and it worked
01:31:09 <Sgeo> Pretty sure elliott's played before
01:31:10 <shachaf> Maybe it was on termcast or something.
01:31:12 <elliott> monqy: Oh, are you playing too?
01:31:17 <Sgeo> People were helping elliott play
01:31:21 <elliott> shachaf: By the way, can I skip Sokoban?
01:31:22 <monqy> elliott: i'm just here to send you mail
01:31:23 <Sgeo> He angered a shopkeeper I think
01:31:27 <shachaf> http://alt.org/nethack/plr.php?player=ehird
01:31:30 <elliott> Sgeo: No, I angered the Kops.
01:31:35 <elliott> Angering a shopkeeper was part of the escape plan.
01:31:38 <shachaf> elliott: There's a bag of holding in Sokoban, though.
01:31:40 <elliott> shachaf: How painful would that be?
01:31:47 <elliott> (Sometimes it's something else.)
01:31:54 <monqy> "reflection i think yes
01:31:55 <shachaf> But the bag of holding is better.
01:32:05 <elliott> Sgeo: If you steal from a shopkeeper then pay it back, the Kops will forgive you.
01:32:10 <elliott> Because they think they got angry because you stole, see?
01:32:19 <shachaf> Because you're a wizard, and on your first wish you're going to get a blessed greased fixed +n silver dragon scale mail!
01:32:21 <elliott> So since they get angry when you steal, repaying a debt always calms the Kops down.
01:32:25 <Sgeo> How did the Kops get summoned without angering shopkeeper?
01:32:36 <elliott> (Summoned? They're always present.)
01:32:44 <shachaf> elliott: Oh, you can sometimes just pay a shopkeeper off to unanger them.
01:32:49 <shachaf> Whether or not you stole something.
01:32:58 <Sgeo> elliott, they get summoned when you steal
01:33:07 <Sgeo> elliott, oh, are there loose roaming cops in Minetown?
01:33:07 <elliott> Sgeo: They were wandering about before I stole.
01:33:11 <elliott> shachaf: Can I just use the default options file?
01:33:17 <elliott> shachaf: Does it have reasonable autopickup settings?
01:33:18 <shachaf> elliott: You want to enable OPTIONS=hpmon
01:33:26 <elliott> Why? Because statuscolors sucks?
01:33:44 <shachaf> (I actually meant to say statuscolors. But either works.)
01:33:44 <elliott> Oh, wait, I have to use the options file if I want to name my pet, don't I?
01:33:50 <quintopia> !bfjoust 3pac >+>->+>->+>->+>(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*15<(+)*15<(-)*20<(+)*40>(-)*20>(+)*15>(-)*15>>>>>(>[((-)*3([+{(+)*30[-][+]}])%6>)*3((+)*3([-{(-)*40[+][-]}])%6>)*18](+)*2)*21
01:33:51 <shachaf> You can name your pet in-game.
01:33:52 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_3pac: 56.8
01:34:07 <elliott> shachaf: Did you know I'm going to turn off DECgraphics?
01:34:23 <elliott> shachaf: Do you turn off DECgraphics, too?
01:34:23 <shachaf> elliott: You should steal Eidolos's config file.
01:34:37 <shachaf> http://alt.org/nethack/userdata/s/shachaf/shachaf.nh343rc
01:34:38 <elliott> See, I *like* DECgraphics. But it looks weird in my terminal.
01:34:42 <elliott> Because the vertical bars don't meet.
01:35:01 <monqy> maybe your terminal and/or font is bad
01:35:03 <elliott> shachaf: Does the default configuration file have menucolors?
01:35:11 <shachaf> elliott: I don't think so?
01:35:18 <shachaf> menucolors needs to have regexps explicitly enabled.
01:35:26 <elliott> shachaf: I mean "default" as in "NAO default".
01:35:32 <shachaf> I don't think NAO has a default?
01:35:38 <shachaf> Vanilla NetHack has no menucolors.
01:35:45 -!- MoALTz_ has joined.
01:35:55 <shachaf> elliott: Guess what I played a bit of yesterday!
01:35:59 <shachaf> Hint: The answer is Psychonauts.
01:36:15 <elliott> MENUCOLOR=" blessed "=green
01:36:21 <elliott> MENUCOLOR=" cursed .* (being worn)"=orange&underline
01:36:30 <elliott> shachaf: Guess "u" "r" "wrong".
01:36:43 <elliott> monqy: Did you know if you use the curses interface, the message window becomes multiple lines? Also everything becomes ugly?
01:36:55 <elliott> I have OPTIONS=hp_monitor.
01:36:56 <shachaf> elliott: The problem with Psychonauts is that the early game is boring.
01:37:04 <quintopia> !bfjoust 3pac >+>->+>->+>->+>(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*15<(+)*15<(-)*20<(+)*40>(-)*20>(+)*15>(-)*15>>>>>(>[((-)*3([+{(+)*30[-][+]}])%6>)*3((+)*3([-{(-)*50[+][-]}])%6>)*18](+)*2)*21
01:37:06 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_3pac: 45.1
01:37:12 <quintopia> !bfjoust 3pac >+>->+>->+>->+>(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*15<(+)*15<(-)*20<(+)*40>(-)*20>(+)*15>(-)*15>>>>>(>[((-)*3([+{(+)*30[-][+]}])%6>)*3((+)*3([-{(-)*40[+][-]}])%6>)*18](+)*2)*21
01:37:15 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_3pac: 56.8
01:37:19 <shachaf> elliott: It gets interesting after you finish the annoying levitation place, more or less.
01:37:24 <quintopia> !bfjoust 3pac >+>->+>->+>->+>(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*15<(+)*15<(-)*20<(+)*40>(-)*20>(+)*15>(-)*15>>>>>(>[((-)*3([+{(+)*30[-][+]}])%6>)*3((+)*3([-{(-)*45[+][-]}])%6>)*18](+)*2)*21
01:37:24 <elliott> shachaf: Does statuscolors not have reasonable defaults?
01:37:26 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_3pac: 53.8
01:37:33 <shachaf> elliott: Nope. It has no defaults.
01:37:39 <quintopia> !bfjoust 3pac >+>->+>->+>->+>(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*15<(+)*15<(-)*20<(+)*40>(-)*20>(+)*15>(-)*15>>>>>(>[((-)*3([+{(+)*35[-][+]}])%6>)*3((+)*3([-{(-)*40[+][-]}])%6>)*18](+)*2)*21
01:37:42 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_3pac: 57.7
01:37:51 <shachaf> elliott: Do you know the #name-y artifact bug?
01:38:16 <elliott> Anyway, I'm going to play NetHack.
01:38:23 <monqy> do you know the elbereth bug
01:38:27 <shachaf> Would ~half an hour from now work?
01:38:45 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
01:39:13 <elliott> shachaf: Did you know I don't like Elbereth?
01:39:29 <elliott> But I can't not use it, because it'd be purposefully hurting my play.
01:39:39 <shachaf> elliott: People have ascended Elberethless.
01:39:39 <elliott> monqy: Can you make a monqy NetHack conduct that involves no Elbereth?
01:39:42 <elliott> It'd be like not casting meph.
01:39:51 <monqy> elliott: just like how in crawl you do labyrithss and cast meph
01:39:54 <shachaf> elliott: That goes under the conduct of "illiterate".
01:39:55 <elliott> Elberethless is probably the least impressive conduct anyone has ever ascended with.
01:39:58 <shachaf> Also scrolls and spellbooks.
01:40:19 <shachaf> elliott: How about: VEGETARIAN
01:40:24 <shachaf> That conduct is less impressive.
01:40:43 <elliott> http://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Autopickup_exception This seems excessive.
01:40:49 <elliott> Is there something wrong with "autopickup,pickup_types:$?!/"="?
01:40:52 <elliott> {{autopickup,pickup_types:$?!/"=}}?
01:41:10 <shachaf> elliott: I like to autopickup,pickup_types:$
01:41:42 <shachaf> And a few other exceptions like magic lamps, I guess?
01:41:56 <shachaf> There's a lot of junk lying around, "d00d".
01:42:40 <monqy> i remember when i played nethack i didn't like autopickup because my autopickup autopicked up corpses while i was fighting
01:42:47 <elliott> Can you edit your NAO rc online?
01:42:48 <monqy> i didn't like that
01:42:51 <elliott> This vi-style editor is annoying.
01:43:13 <monqy> i also remember not knowing about elbereth or anything like that
01:43:22 <monqy> or how to start the quest
01:43:24 <shachaf> alt.org/nethack/EDITMYNETHACKRCORSOMETHING
01:43:36 <elliott> I don't know how to start the quest. But I know Elbereth.
01:43:40 <elliott> Can you set a macro up for Elbereth?
01:43:41 <monqy> or how to identify items!
01:43:45 <shachaf> monqy: Autopickingup all % is probably a bad idea.
01:43:49 <shachaf> elliott: You can in Interhack!
01:43:56 <elliott> shachaf: Wow, there's an online editor that uses HTML forms.
01:44:01 <elliott> Rather than a direct editor.
01:44:01 <monqy> better play interhack
01:44:03 <elliott> This is too fancy. Too fancy.
01:44:04 <shachaf> elliott: Yes, but don't use that.
01:44:14 <shachaf> (Or do use it. I don't know.)
01:44:26 <shachaf> Does it support statuscolors?
01:44:31 <elliott> shachaf: Did you know there's a NetHack bug where doors sometimes don't open in one try?
01:44:47 <elliott> And yes, it does. But I'm not going to use it.
01:44:54 <shachaf> elliott: Did you ever hear the story of the time I died in NetHack because of not speaking English well?
01:45:04 <shachaf> elliott: Also, if you're a wizard: Elbereth becomes *way* better once you get Magicbane.
01:45:14 <shachaf> elliott: Well, I noticed that "the door resists!" meant that it was stuck.
01:45:20 <shachaf> So I zapped a wand at a shopkeeper.
01:45:27 <shachaf> And it said "the shopkeeper resists!"
01:45:35 <shachaf> So I thought the shopkeeper was stuck and walked over to hit him.
01:46:05 <elliott> (Weren't you kind of dead at that point anyway?)
01:46:09 <elliott> shachaf: Hey, what should I call my cat?
01:46:13 <elliott> monqy: Can I call my cat "monqy"?
01:46:21 <elliott> shachaf: Oh, does zapping at a shk not anger it?
01:46:24 <elliott> I'm not going to call it monqy.
01:46:27 <elliott> I'm going to call it squarelos.
01:46:27 <shachaf> elliott: It was already angry.
01:46:33 <shachaf> But I was at the door; I could've escaped.
01:46:39 <elliott> monqy: Is calling it squarelos better than calling it monqy?
01:47:03 <elliott> monqy: Also, sign up as squarelos. I can't receive mail from monqy, it feels odd.
01:47:32 <elliott> shachaf: Should I turn on showborn?
01:48:00 <shachaf> elliott: showborn doesn't really matter?
01:48:15 <elliott> I like how [[nethackwiki:Options]] is ridiculously NAO-biased.
01:48:18 <elliott> Obsolete. NAO used to have the HPmon-patch, but uses now Statuscolors.
01:48:29 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:48:29 <elliott> Oh, that's in the "NAO" section. Okay.
01:48:47 <elliott> shachaf: The default rc *does* do statuscolors.
01:48:53 <elliott> Should I turn on the other ones?
01:48:57 <shachaf> "NAO": "Not Another Option"
01:49:14 <elliott> ## Sort items by name. One of "none", "loot", or "full"
01:49:21 <shachaf> elliott: I was once going to implement random-rainbow for Hallu.
01:49:31 <elliott> monqy: Don't you love hallu?
01:49:38 <shachaf> monqy: Crawl doesn't have Hallu!
01:49:43 <shachaf> Therefore, NetHack > Crawl.
01:49:57 <monqy> idk hallu is cute but annoying
01:50:46 <monqy> haven't you played nethack before ?
01:50:54 <elliott> monqy: Not as a spellcaster.
01:50:57 <elliott> shachaf: Should I colour Pw?
01:50:59 <shachaf> The funny part is that it calls it "energy" elsewhere.
01:51:06 <shachaf> It's not as important as HP.
01:51:17 <shachaf> elliott: Force Bolt costs 5 Pw.
01:51:23 <elliott> shachaf: Well, in Crawl, MP is coloured and all.
01:51:30 <elliott> Because having low MP is bad. (If you're no good at melee.)
01:51:31 <shachaf> elliott: Also, read [[nethackwiki::wizard]]
01:51:34 <monqy> other things i did in nethack: I didn't rest up hp or pw because ugh resting, especially resting in nethack
01:51:35 <elliott> (Also if you're good at melee sometimes!)
01:51:43 <shachaf> It's probably good. I haven't read it but why wouldn't it be?
01:51:49 <elliott> shachaf: No. I'm relying on your advice.
01:52:06 <shachaf> elliott: Some people say wizards shouldn't do spellcasting until after the quest.
01:52:14 <monqy> other things i did in nethack: play healer and stone to flesh every boulder then choke to death
01:52:20 <shachaf> The wizard quest is the point where spellcasting becomes really good.
01:52:30 <elliott> shachaf: But the reason I want to do spellcasting is because melee earlygame is really boring.
01:52:43 <monqy> other things i did in nethack: feed half-eaten lichen corpse to pony, make friend
01:52:47 <elliott> Anyway, does leaving showborn off cause any irretrievable information loss?
01:52:53 <elliott> I really hate irretrievable information loss.
01:52:56 <elliott> (i.e. is the info tracked anywhere else)
01:53:08 <shachaf> elliott: I think showborn only affects post-death information?
01:53:11 <elliott> In Sokoban I had about six to seven kittens.
01:53:18 <elliott> Most people try and dispose of pets in Sokoban.
01:53:30 <elliott> shachaf: But is the information on what monsters you killed tracked elsewhere?
01:53:35 <shachaf> elliott: Anyway, wizards + throwing daggers = mix
01:53:47 <shachaf> And wizards + wielding Magicbane (= athame = dagger) = mix
01:53:55 <elliott> AUTOPICKUP_EXCEPTION="<*magic lamp*"
01:53:55 <elliott> AUTOPICKUP_EXCEPTION="<*wand of wishing*"
01:53:56 <elliott> AUTOPICKUP_EXCEPTION="<*wand of death*"
01:53:58 <elliott> AUTOPICKUP_EXCEPTION="<*wand of polymorph*"
01:54:00 <elliott> I guess I'll uncomment these.
01:54:03 <shachaf> elliott: The monsters you *killed*? Yes.
01:54:05 <elliott> (Actually I did before I pasted that. That's why they don't have #.)
01:54:23 <monqy> guess who forgot about polypiling
01:54:31 <monqy> guess who didn't know about polypiling when he played nethack
01:54:44 <monqy> guess who startscummed wizards for rings of polyself then died to system shock
01:54:51 <elliott> shachaf: (Is there any reason to autopickup those lamps/wands?)
01:54:57 <elliott> shachaf: (I mean, surely I'd know if I stepped on 'em.)
01:55:03 <shachaf> elliott: To save you the hassle?
01:55:19 <elliott> s/hassle/inconsistent behaviour considering nothing but gold (which is goldified) is picked up/
01:55:19 <shachaf> AUTOPICKUP_EXCEPTION="<*gray stone*"
01:55:37 <shachaf> elliott: Look, add whatever you want to your autopickup list!
01:55:40 <elliott> Anyway, OK, I think I'm ready.
01:55:45 <shachaf> (But don't add gray stone. That would be stupid.)
01:55:54 <elliott> monqy: curses interface: http://nethackwiki.com/mediawiki/images/9/96/Expanded-status.png
01:55:54 <monqy> is gold goldified in nethack?
01:56:11 <monqy> elliott: you sure that's not hugeterm?
01:56:36 <elliott> shachaf: Goldified means that the class of items in question is not present in the inventory and takes up no weight.
01:56:38 <monqy> karl is a bad person
01:56:56 <elliott> For instance, in Crawl, gold is goldified (it just adds to your gold count, nothing else), and so are runes (they just get added to the list of runes you've picked up).
01:57:10 <shachaf> elliott: Gold takes up weight.
01:57:11 <elliott> shachaf: Has it been half an hour yet?
01:57:25 <shachaf> elliott: Half an hour *after* we finish talking so I can do the thing I need to do.
01:57:40 <elliott> Now I'm not going to let you do the thing you need to do.
01:57:44 <elliott> You have to watch me instead.
01:58:29 <elliott> shachaf: Did you hear that?
01:59:15 <shachaf> elliott: I gotta, like, go home, man. :-(
01:59:23 <shachaf> I don't even know your username.
01:59:28 <elliott> shachaf: Where are you? I bet where you are is great.
01:59:30 <monqy> you should have thought of that before !!
01:59:32 <elliott> My username is ehird. I haven't started playing yet.
01:59:46 <shachaf> I'll go home in a moment and watch after that.
02:00:00 <shachaf> (UNLESS: I decide to do something else instead.)
02:00:05 <shachaf> (But I'll watch for a little bit.)
02:01:03 <elliott> monqy: You'll watch me, right?
02:01:23 <monqy> i've had nao open ever since you said you'd play
02:01:49 <elliott> http://alt.org/nethack/player-stats.php?player=ehird Wow, I was diverse.
02:02:04 <monqy> at one point i accidentally a button that opened rcfile editing and i closed that but for some reason it closed the connection then when i reconnected i made a squarelos account
02:02:11 <elliott> http://alt.org/nethack/player-all.php?player=ehird
02:02:17 <elliott> I have not played this year.
02:02:51 <elliott> Okay, maybe I have played today.
02:03:10 <elliott> Let me check by watching the ttyrec.
02:03:45 <monqy> i remember you playing nethack but that may have been nh4
02:04:32 <elliott> Warning - Boolean option specified multiple times: autopickup.
02:04:45 <elliott> I started the game anyway.
02:04:50 <elliott> You are lucky! Full moon tonight.
02:05:22 <monqy> what are you playing
02:05:46 <elliott> Let me check [[nethackwiki:Wizard]].
02:06:03 <elliott> OK, humans seem to suck, gnomes can't be chaotic, and orcs suck at spells.
02:06:29 <monqy> you could be lawful and wear opposite alignment
02:06:34 <monqy> good ideas (c) monqy
02:06:42 <elliott> I wonder which gender I should be!
02:06:54 <monqy> for optimal game play experience
02:07:06 <monqy> if you're female you can lay eggs; that's a boon
02:07:13 <monqy> can males do anything ?
02:07:16 <elliott> Any eggs found and carried by male characters have a 50/50 chance of hatching tame. Eggs found and carried by females will never hatch tame. (Eggs laid by you will always hatch tame, regardless of your current gender.)
02:07:30 <elliott> "In NetHack brass, female characters dressed as nurses can apply bandages faster than men."
02:07:56 <elliott> THANK YOU FOR MANGLING MY NAME, NETHACK
02:08:23 <monqy> nethack is controlled exlusively by numpad
02:08:34 -!- tswett has changed nick to TenRantStew.
02:08:46 <monqy> did you know: when i played nethack, for a while i exlusively used arrowkeys
02:08:50 <monqy> then i learned vikeys
02:09:21 <elliott> NetHack's interface is so weird, ugh.
02:09:45 <elliott> What's elvish eyesight like?
02:09:54 <monqy> lower case z is zap wand
02:10:44 <elliott> NetHack's secret corridor stuff.
02:10:58 <elliott> monqy: Now would be an excellent time to send me "hi".
02:11:25 <elliott> Patashu: I've played NetHack before!
02:12:02 <elliott> monqy: Did that mail daemon just... reveal terrain for me?
02:13:01 <elliott> monqy: OK you have to reduce your frequency of mail-sending because NetHack's UI for it is awful.
02:13:13 <elliott> Wait, where the heck is the shop?
02:13:22 <monqy> that may or may not be why i'm sending so much mail
02:13:38 <monqy> nethack's ui for mail is comically bad
02:13:47 <Patashu> you have to pick it up and read it, right
02:13:57 <elliott> Patashu: A mail daemon runs towards you.
02:14:01 <elliott> And a scroll of mail ends up in your inventory.
02:14:24 <elliott> There is a message on this scroll. The message is from 'someone'.--More--
02:14:34 <elliott> monqy: Where's the shop :(
02:14:38 -!- Lumpio- has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
02:14:38 <monqy> you forgot "as you read the scroll it disappears"
02:14:43 -!- TenRantStew has changed nick to tswett.
02:14:59 <monqy> try the black spots
02:15:20 <elliott> "A scroll of mail will "activate" an Elbereth square like any other object."
02:16:39 <monqy> when i played nethack i didn't have menucolors
02:16:49 <monqy> so i didn't notice when i was dying
02:16:54 <elliott> wow each book contains one spell?
02:17:11 <monqy> nethack books tend to do that,y es
02:17:19 <elliott> is there a convenient key like 5
02:17:25 <elliott> Patashu: are you watching me; you should watch me!
02:17:45 <elliott> monqy: how can I tell which corpses are ok to eat ;(
02:17:59 <monqy> they're bad for you
02:18:18 <Patashu> and yes, you have to memorize or look up 99% of things in nethack
02:18:21 <elliott> monqy: do you want to hear a joke
02:18:26 <elliott> the joke is: x is examine in crawl
02:18:28 <elliott> but "switch weapon" in nethack
02:18:40 <elliott> the joke is: it takes a turn and leaves you bare-handed if you have no alternate weapon
02:18:41 <Patashu> isn't it l or v or something
02:18:56 <Patashu> I would need to look up all of the keys
02:19:01 <elliott> monqy: should i wear the iron skull cap
02:19:09 <monqy> does patashue play net hack
02:19:23 <elliott> Patashu: where is the shop
02:20:09 <elliott> Patashu: WHERE IS THE SHOP
02:20:34 <monqy> try the black spots!!
02:21:02 <elliott> Do you want to hear another joke?
02:21:05 <elliott> NetHack's ally management system.
02:23:39 -!- PatashuXantheres has joined.
02:23:45 -!- Patashu has quit (Disconnected by services).
02:23:47 <elliott> monqy: was that one of your funny jokes
02:24:06 <monqy> elliott: you're not giving me much to work with!!
02:24:36 <elliott> pls don't make the jokes TOO funny because I am ｒｅａｌｌｙ ｂａｄ ａｔ ＮｅｔＨａｃｋ
02:24:45 <elliott> and thus will have no idea if you are serious or not
02:24:59 <monqy> that's part of the fun
02:25:42 <elliott> You faint from lack of food. You regain consciousness.